The Rutgers Center for Workplace Development has realeased What Workers Want in 2012, a survey that canvassed 1,726 adults of various ages for information about their life priorities. The results show some interesting attitudinal differences among four generational groups:
- Boomers
- Gen X
- Millennials
- College students
Source: NYX's Economix blog
Summary descriptions from the report:
Baby Boomers
Defined as those between 49 and 65 at the time of the survey, they now make up the oldest cohort of the workforce. This group was parented by prosperity, and shares a presumption of entitlement to their world view. The Boomer cohort has always been big enough to force the culture to adapt to them. For years they have dictated politics and culture by their sheer number in a market-driven economy, and policy to the degree they have had a coherent outlook.
Generation X
Comprises those between 33 and 48, at the time of the survey. This group’s formative experiences were framed by familial and financial insecurity. They grew up amidst rising rates of divorce and recession. Where the sexual revolution of the Boomers
brought free expression and experimentation, the threat of AIDS brought Xers fear and caution.
Millennials
Defined as those between 21 and 32 in this study, they are much more like Boomers than Xers. They grew up as an affirmed generation, with a re-focus on the family, and are generally thought of as having high self-esteem and self-confidence. They are racially and ethnically diverse and tolerant of a variety of lifestyles. Information has always been virtually costless and universally available to them.
My observations:
1. Millennials value marriage or life partnership far more than any other group, including Boomers. Perhaps due to a declining divorce rate as they came of age, they lack the cynicism of Gen X about relationships.
2. The exact same pattern among groups holds for the life goal of having children, with 65% of Millennials viewing it as essential or very important.
3. Millennials place a high priority of having a job that makes the world a better place. For an excellent essay on this sentiment, see Even Artichokes Have Doubts.
Note: The piece was written by Marina Keegan, a young woman who was tragically killed over the weekend in a car accident on Cape Cod. She was 22, and had graduated from Yale just days ago. When she wrote the piece last fall challenging her college classmates to eschew finance and consulting for more valuable and meaningful work, the article was picked up by the New York Times, NPR and other media outlets. Keegan’s most recent (and heartbreaking) essay can be found here. Her parents have said they feel comforted by the fact that it has gone viral.
4. The Milennials also value leadership, wealth and prestige more than any other generation. Whether they’re optimistic or foolish, they intend to have it all. It will be particularly interesting to watch this generation balance work and family.
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The group that is at the age where you are most likely to get married is the most interested in it.
In other news, 5 year olds are most interested in Dora the Explorer.
You will also notice that the group with the most money is the least concerned about it.
Reminds me of that scene in The Aviator where Katherine Hepburns family declares that they are socialists and that they don’t care about money.
As a supposed “millenial”, when I see these these statistics, I’m more inclined to throw in the term “instant gratification”, instead of optimism and motivation.
Prestigious career? Artist, movie star… (don’t forget the aversion to STEM fields);
Being wealthy? Money and plastic > relationships and talent;
Leader in my community? Look at me, look at me, meeeee!
The cynicism is still there, and a new one is becoming more prominent, that of the “failed icon”. Some pretty big names have gone down, and people feel they cannot look up at others no more. When people look up at movie stars, you think it’s because of their character or their status (money, looks, …)? Just the next generation hurled towards life, “armed” with the perception they’ll have it all because the commercials said so.
“Millennials place a high priority of having a job that makes the world a better place.”
Well, sure – everyone thinks they can change the world at 20. I don’t think that’s unique to the Millennials.
This is how the question was worded:
Different people have different goals in life. Please indicate how important each of the following is
to your overall happiness.
If anything, this should skew answers about marriage and children toward Boomers, not the reverse.
@Rico
It’s true that the young are more idealistic, but the different generations do display different attitudes depending on the economic, political and social climates that were in place as they grew up. There’s been quite a bit of variation in that regard over the last three generations.
I tend to think that much of the skewing has to do with changing attitudes as people age. People tend to be much more idealistic and “world is my oyster” types in their 20s than they do later on when they are living differently in their 30s and 40s and more and more doors begin to close off. I certainly know many of my own gen X peers who were more idealistic about life when we were 23 than we are now in our mid 40s.
If anything, this should skew answers about marriage and children toward Boomers, not the reverse.
I am not following what you are saying here.
I agree with most of the above. Basically, it’s very difficult to interpret this without knowledge of how each older generation would have answered when they were in the younger brackets.
The way this is framed is skewed. The underlying premise is that business/profits/commerce = bad whereas do-goody non-profit stuff = good. “Making a difference” is only the latter.
Well, no, it’s not that simple. The person who starts a firm that creates 200 jobs has done more to “make a difference” than the foundation officer who simply gives away money that was earned by someone else through filthy commerce 50 or 100 years ago. This is to say nothing of the quality of the program receiving the money, which is often abysmal.
Earning a living, contributing to the economy, forming and maintaining a stable family, raising good childern–all that is “making a difference” even if you never work a day in an NGO. The whole Davos hive mind, which defines elite discourse in the OECD, has corrupted our understanding of these basic facts, even though all the people who foot the bills at Davos are dirty capitalists.
We cannot be a world or a nation full of foundation officers. Someone has to generate and distribute the necessities of life and they need to make a profit at it if they are going to bother to do it. In addition, there are the non-necessities that make life enjoyable for most of us (Glaucon’s relishes). Why we continue to delegitimize all this activity is beyond me. I mean, I know why but I think it’s stupid.
“Millennials value marriage or life partnership far more than any other group, including Boomers. Perhaps due to a declining divorce rate as they came of age, they lack the cynicism of Gen X about relationships.”
I can agree to this. Those in my age group (Millennials) that I find to be cynical about relationships also came from divorced homes and Generation X parents. I rarely find someone with this mindset due to their own thinking, it’s often passed down.
And those I run into who didn’t grow up in shaky households tend to be more open-minded about relationships and able to differentiate between one situation and gross generalizations about the opposite sex or relationships.
#4 particularly pertains to me. I’m interested to see how I am going to balance work and family, and sometimes I think I might not even want kids if it means I would have to give up my career and volunteerism. I already an pretty sure I want to wait until early to mid 30s to think about having children, but I guess I cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, there is just so much I want to do in my life that doesn’t and often even can’t involve children.
They can “want” marriage and maybe many are out there trying to get it. But that does not mean they are viewed as qualified or desirable due to a myriad of factors. Some lessons are hard learned.
@Escoffier
As an MBA, former consultant and SAHM who lived on the proceeds of a finance career for many years, I’m not arguing that finance or consulting have no value to society, though I won’t pretend to claim the moral high ground that a doctor can, for example.
I think that Marina Keegan makes a good point – there is something troubling when 25% of the Yale class goes racing off to McKinsey, Bain and Wall St. I know that Harvard University has voiced similar concerns about the choices its graduates make coming out of school.
In any case, I do believe based on my exposure to Millennials that they are quite socially conscious. They’re the ones behind Occupy, for example – the first anti-establishment effort of its kind in over 40 years. They compete very aggressively for positions in Teach for America and other community organizations. I personally know 4 young people who have already taken committed steps to spending their careers in Africa. Before now, I haven’t met a single person who made that choice.
Thanks to digital media and technology, the world is becoming a small place.
@Rone
Research bears this out. College kids of divorce are far more likely to state that they prefer hooking up because they believe relationships take too much work and usually end badly.
@Ashley
Your mention of volunteerism reminded me of something else. Here in Boston there are now volunteer activities for singles. I believe they schedule a big work day, e.g. a Saturday at Habitat for Humanity or a shelter, and then at the end of the day they go out for beers together. I think that would be a great way of meeting new people. I’m sure other cities have this as well.
@Ramble
Most Boomers have children, so wouldn’t they be more likely to say that having children is essential or very important as a life goal? Same with having chosen marriage. If anything, they’d be prone to justify the choices they’d already made, no?
“College kids of divorce are far more likely to state that they prefer hooking up ”
And those who can hook up more easily will do it more. Best to pass them up when shopping for a spouse.
Well, sue, given where I grew up and went to school I am cynical about “social conciousness.” I mean, OWS is basically an incoherent rabble. Teach for America is great but two things one could say about that: 1) it is EXTREMELY prestigious so the idea that these kids are really giving anything up or making a sacrifice is dubious. I mean I know it can be rough but there is a huge pot of gold at the other end and the term is not that long. TFA is basically the McKinsey of non-profits. 2) their results are mixed at best and when you start measuring for scalability and sustainability, it’s far from clear that they do any long term good.
HYPS are extremely disingenous on this topic, BTW. yes, they do a lot of hand-wringing about how they don’t want all their grads to go to hedge funds, etc. But they also know that both their brand and their endowments depend on their grads controlling the commanding heights of the culture and economy. They are pretty happy with the mix as it is. The hand-wringing is for show. They highlight the do-goody stuff to deflect attention from the fact that all the evil banks despised by their facultly and grad students are in fact run by their former undergrads.
Susan, I have read elsewhere that Gen X is actually quite stable once married (low divorce rate) in part because they were the generation most racked by divorce among their parents. Their marriage rates are not as high as the prior generation but their divorce rate is a fraction.
HYPS are extremely disingenous on this topic, BTW. yes, they do a lot of hand-wringing about how they don’t want all their grads to go to hedge funds, etc. But they also know that both their brand and their endowments depend on their grads controlling the commanding heights of the culture and economy. They are pretty happy with the mix as it is. The hand-wringing is for show. They highlight the do-goody stuff to deflect attention from the fact that all the evil banks despised by their facultly and grad students are in fact run by their former undergrads.
This has been my experience as well. This is the public hand-wringing and the stuff of commencement speeches. In reality, they want a goodly chunk of their alums being docs, lawyers, execs, bankers, mgmt consultants, high-end entrepreneurs and the like — they want the alumni financial contributions, on the one hand, and the actual cachet and soft power that comes from their alumni being in positions of economic and, to some degree, social and political power. Ideally, they want both from their alumni, but I don’t think anyone at those schools really cares that 25% of the class ends up at elite investment banks and consulting firms — that leaves 75% of the class doing other things, which is a mix.
BTW, a figure that sticks out for me from Liar’s Poker (1989) was that 40% of the Yale (?) class of 1986 applied to just one I-bank (First Boston).
So, not only is this nothing new, you could say things have been quite a bit worse.
@SW #17
Not really, because they have already accomplished those things.
How could having children still be a very important life goal of someone 50-65?
Surely the ones who haven’t married (or had children) would put “getting married” (or “having children”) at a higher importance than someone who has already done so.
Like Erik L mentioned, it’s hard to tell without knowing how the older generations would have responded in when they were within the Joyner brackets.
@Escoffier
TFA is very prestigious, but part of that is how selective they are. I realize that’s a chicken or egg question, but my daughter worked for them as an undergrad, and they would rather have a school yield zero recruits than take someone with less than a 3.6 and stellar leadership credentials. The circular file is where 90% of the apps go regardless of need. So I think they masterfully created that prestige by taking only very strong graduates from the start.
Good point about the hand wringing of prestigious institutions. They want a mix, though, for PR purposes. They don’t want all the most talented grads heading for finance.
That doesn’t surprise me, actually. With a greater awareness of the pitfalls, they would be better prepared to avoid them.
@Cooper
See above, they were asked how important this life goal is to their overall happiness. So a woman my age, with two children, would say “essential.” Because of course it is.
I think the college students and millennials are both optimistic and a little naive. That’s a natural part of being young, so I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with it.
Once they get a little more life experience, I’m sure the real world will beat that out of them.
Look at the hippies for example. Weren’t they all about smoking pot and saving the world? Then they grew up, cut their hair, put on ties and went to work.
Now the ex-hippie boomers’ biggest concern is having enough money to fund a comfortable retirement.
Of course, that interpretation may just be the result of viewing the world through my cynical gen-x filter…
I really recommend the book Generations by Howe and Strauss for anyone who’s interested in this.
Those responses bring up a couple of key questions: is this really about 4 unique age-groups and their outlooks, or is this more like a (mythical) average person going through normal life stages, from youth to (ahem) old age?
It really could be both, with those responses skewed a bit by history undulating underneath it all, affecting how “the average person” sees things.
I’m also confused by the choice of questions. They’re obviously questions that were important to Marina Keegan, but somebody else would have chosen a different set, surely. The ones shown her, are mostly of interest to the young.Add in a question about health care and that graph would stand out.
So that makes me wonder if anything there really tells us “What Workers Want in 2010″ (which was, after all, the title of the survey).
Susan, that’s the point. That’s Wendy Kopp’s marketing genius. She sells TFA as “sacrifice” when in fact getting accepted by TFA is as much a career-maker as getting a job at Goldman or McKinsey. Selectivity is the key to that. Just as selectivity is the key to Princeton’s prestige.
Re: Hippies, not quite.
This is to distinguish hippies from the New Left, the other ’60s countercultural archetype. They have tended to blend together in the popular imagination in the years since but they are in fact quite distinct.
The hippies were first and foremost hedonistic and secondarily a pseudo-religious movement. They tried to make the hedonism spiritual and therefore respectable but that flamed out because of its incoherence and because of the fact that only a small minority were really in it for the spiritualism. Most were in it for the sex, drugs and the fact that they didn’t have to work.
The hippies were not about saving the world. When they grew up–those that did in fact grow up–they did tend to turn to “socially concious” productive enterprises. Much of what they did in creating the organic food movement, e.g., has been very valuable if you ask me. I would say that very few of the true hippies ever put on ties. Basically, they either died young (this happened a lot but it’s mostly been crammed down the memory hole), remained wastrels on the dole forever (go visit certain NorCal towns if you doubt this) or started working in some kind of business that they could convince themselves was somehow better than ordinary commerce.
The New Left was truly trying to change the world. Many of them are now in the universities.
Ashley, please remember that each year after a girl turns 26, the likelihood that she will give birth to a healthy child goes down. Unfortunately, this si something that many girls rarely take into serious consideration.
I know that, biologically, this is true. And yet there are so many exceptions. I don’t think there is one mother at my kid’s school who gave birth to a child before turning 30. From the look of them, most were well past that and some were over 40.
@Escoffier
Wendy Kopp certainly is a marketing genius. BTW, they also are very, very hard on accepted students who decline the offer. It happens a lot, because kids applying to law and medical schools often apply to TFA. They essentially accuse those kids of treason and greed. I know one young woman who was accepted to medical school and TFA applied strong pressure to get her to defer for two years. When she explained that she hoped to have children, and that would make her over 30 at the least, they told her that perhaps she was focusing on the wrong children. !!!!!????? It’s almost cultish.
Look, I am not telling you what people actually do believe or what they should believe. What I am saying is this:
According to this poll, we see,
- People in their 20′s are most concerned about marriage.
- People in their 20′s are most concerned about children.
- The youngest cohort is also the most idealistic.
- Those with the least money are the most concerned about it.
- Those with the most money are the least concerned about it (Boomers were especially financially successful).
I am not saying that one generation is no more idealistic than another. But, that this survey was not particularly illuminating.
Susan, wow, that is wierd. I really think that some of the things done/said in Kopp’s name she would be a bit unnerved by. I mean, she has four kids herself!
Susan, where was you daughter placed?
I knew one girl who taught for TFA in Louisiana and absolutely hated it. She said it was like a war zone.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/teach-for-america-chews-up-spits-out-another-ethni,1293/
“But listen, no one can tell you that you can’t make a difference. It’s something you have to figure out for yourself.”
Unfortunately, this si something that many girls rarely take into serious consideration.
I agree the want children is never treated as a goal the same way “want to be a lawyer” is, so is like a vague desire but no information is gathered as how to achieve this but assumed that kids are a missing pill away. Is the same issue with Kate Bolick at 39 “finding herself single” which makes no sense if she never actually actively worked to get married, YMMV.
My $.02: many Millennials have not been fully indoctrinated (yet) into the magical world of trade-offs. To get the real market color, you may need a survey that imposes rather stark, unpleasant choices—”successful power career or stable marriage—which do you want?”…”partner with hot looks or partner with kind personality—choose one”…”fame and adventure or family values—which do you select”…and so on.
Given no opportunity costs, they’ll just sign up for everything and say they want it all, which for many/most will be basically akin to saying “I’m a ticking time bomb…in ten years I will be taking horse tranquilizers to deal with my shattered life expectations.”
This is probably partially a function of being young and optimistic, and partially a function of legit increases in narcissistic attention-whoring and a “self-confidence bubble”.
To elaborate on what I said in #35, girls who grow up in (say) Brookline or the little suburb where I live or in most of UMC blue America–Their own mother will be over 30 and all their friends will have mothers well over 30 and sometimes over 40. They will see this as normal. What will seem odd is a 25 y/o mom because in these places, such moms basically do not exist.
That plus parental pressure to go to college and then excell at some career combines to make this girls think that it’s normal to wait until at least 30 to even think about having kids. UMC parents want to brag that their daughter went to Yale and then to Wharton or Duke Law, clerked for the 1oth Circuit, is a Deputy Assistant to the President or SVP in Tokyo at age 28. They really don’t want to have to say to their friends, “Oh Jenny is home with her two babies.” Not until Jenny is at least 35, has the resume behind her, and a man making a boatload of cash.
So, biologically, their clock may be ticking. But all they see is mother after mother, in their own generation and in the generation before theirs, who started their families in their mid-30s. It worked out for all of them so why not for her?
There is no countervailing message even being voiced, much less getting through.
Susan, one other point, the Ivies hate more than anything an acceptee who turns them down. That’s bad for the brand. That’s also what early admission is all about, to cut down that %. They want you to commit first: You say yes to us, and if we say yes to you, you must come here. Their magic number is not just their acceptance rate but their matriculation rate.
So TFA is no doubt acting on the same principle. Being admitted and then doing something else is like turning down a marriage proposal. The suitor gets mighty pissed.
I once asked my husband if he were forced to choose between a girl who was a little chubby and had a pretty face vs. a girl who had a great body and an ugly face, which would he choose? He struggled with the answer, but ultimately chose the pretty face and a little overweight.
It makes more evolutionary sense in my opinion. An average height female who could lose 25lbs does not suffer a major blow to her fertility, and the pretty face indicates higher innate estrogen levels. Most cultures try to fatten girls up with meat, fish and eggs as part of ancient and traditional fertility rituals.
But there is definitely an upper limit to the weight thing. I think that limit is generally when the face becomes affected by being too fat.
If a girl did want to have her first child while she is at her peak of health and fertility, she would likely never be able to afford to live in Brookline.
Few in Brookline, or Cambridge, or much of anywhere else in the upper-class world could give two shits about this, of course.
Actually, I don’t agree so much about the Upper Middle Class beating into their daughters brains about some amazing career. Maybe for the Upper Class, but not so much for the UMC. But, I can only speak for what I saw.
Good Career? Stable Career? Nice Job? Ability to meet and socialize with “good” people? Yes, absolutely.
Becoming a Brain Surgeon and not being able to have children before 35…I did not see that.
Again, I am not seeing that. At least for the UMC (and maybe not for the UC), those mothers start pestering their daughters about marriage by their late 20′s.
@Escoffier
That mirrors my own experience. As a 35 yo whose kid was starting kindergarten, I was probably in the younger half of the moms group. I remember one mom who seemed like such a baby, none of us could get over it. She was 26 or so, and we all thought she was just ridiculously young to be there. By the way, she and her husband were high school sweethearts and did not go to college. She was the only young one out of about 40 moms in two classes.
You’re right about the expectations of boomer parents – as the survey says, we’re a generation that is used to having our say and our way. I wonder how things will shift once we’ve passed on.
Whoa, why so unequivocal?
How about, 25 lbs overweight versus a slightly below average face?
Hope, I hope that your husband clarified in his answer that, “Well, Honey, the fatter girl can simply lay off the bagels”.
pestering for marriage by late 20s, sure, but that means kids no earlier than early 30s. It just does not happen here (or on the other coast). In part, as you note, because all the places these people want to live are sooooo expensive.
irls who grow up in (say) Brookline or the little suburb where I live or in most of UMC blue America–Their own mother will be over 30 and all their friends will have mothers well over 30 and sometimes over 40. They will see this as normal. What will seem odd is a 25 y/o mom because in these places, such moms basically do not exist.
Right. My son’s mother was 27 when he was born, and that raised a LOT of eyebrows, even though it was just after she had graduated from law school. Almost all the other moms in the mom groups and so on were at least 30 and many 35+. It’s the new normal for the UMCs.
That plus parental pressure to go to college and then excell at some career combines to make this girls think that it’s normal to wait until at least 30 to even think about having kids. UMC parents want to brag that their daughter went to Yale and then to Wharton or Duke Law, clerked for the 1oth Circuit, is a Deputy Assistant to the President or SVP in Tokyo at age 28. They really don’t want to have to say to their friends, “Oh Jenny is home with her two babies.” Not until Jenny is at least 35, has the resume behind her, and a man making a boatload of cash.
True, but I also wonder if it isn’t also, in part, the new MRS degree? In other words, the assortative mating in the UMC is now working in two ways, and guys also want to marry women with resumes, even if such women eventually become SAHMs (not uncommon with highly-educated UMC couples I know). So in order to get the MRS degree, a woman needs not only the actual degree and opportunity to meet in college or grad school, but the resume and track record after that as well to make for a truly optimal assortative match. I suspect that is is quite a bit of what is going on as well, despite the sense in the manosphere that men are not interested in this. Perhaps most men are not, but in highly-educated professional UMC, a woman’s resume is important in assortative mating, and not just her degree.
No doubt. I’ve seen this principle at work in a couple of places. Once, when our daughter applied to private school from 6th grade, they called and asked if we would guarantee enrollment if they let her in. They had already learned where else she’d applied. I couldn’t believe it – for an 11 year old! (We did not guarantee, they wait listed and then accepted her. Risk to the yield rate was eliminated.)
Also, Harvard has something they call the Z list. If you’re connected and they have to let you in, but you don’t have the chops, you get put on the Z list. This comes with a letter inviting you to matriculate after a gap year. These admits are not counted in the stats for either matriculating class. Talk about whoring. Six middling kids in my son’s high school were put on that list. Only one turned them down and went to NYU instead.
Ramble, I did mean below average face, not hideously deformed or anything. Anyway, he still had to think about it, and made it clear he did not like the question. In his answer he said he’d rather have good body and good face. But he is also a guy who prefers girls on the more petite side. There are men who like women with bigger builds and more meat on their bones.
And yeah, he did take into consideration that the chubby girl can lose weight.
She was one of the ones who committed treason. :-/
I have also heard very mixed stories about the experience. My son’s gf did it in Philadelphia, and it was a very challenging two years. She taught remedial algebra, and the age in her classes spanned five years. There were 4 or 5 pregnant girls in her class both years. She was threatened on several occasions and had to call the police once.
At the end of her first year, she gave 11 Fs. The principal called her in and told her that would not do. She had to pass those kids. She refused. He pressured her further, and she said, “I work for TFA and you cannot make me change those grades.” He changed them and the kids were pushed along.
She is the sweetest, smartest kid, but that job aged her and made her cynical.
Brendan, absolutely.
But it’s not just the assortive mating social cue for the male that’s important. It’s also important for the woman’s psyche. She gets to say (to herself and her peers) “I’m not just a mom, I’m accomplished, I have exceeded my mother and grandmother’s generations and also I have not squandered what the womens movement made possible for me. I am not defined by a man. I am SOMEBODY!!!” This latter point is, I believe, more important than the former. That is, it’s more important to her, to what motivates her.
This completely jibes with what my friend went through.
Some day we will need to trade stories on that most hallowed of institutions, The Peace Corps.
But it’s not just the assortive mating social cue for the male that’s important. It’s also important for the woman’s psyche. She gets to say (to herself and her peers) “I’m not just a mom, I’m accomplished, I have exceeded my mother and grandmother’s generations and also I have not squandered what the womens movement made possible for me. I am not defined by a man. I am SOMEBODY!!!” This latter point is, I believe, more important than the former. That is, it’s more important to her, to what motivates her.
I think it’s a mixture of both, but I’d agree that this is also an important factor, especially for the ones who become SAHMs later (“well I clerked for Justice Souter and then worked at Cravath for six years before I decided I wanted to spend more time with my kids.
I’m just grateful I had the choice *cue smile at law partner husband*”). It’s a mix of both, I think, really, but certainly the voiced motivation is as you suggest (and it’s part of the internal one as well, given the way women socialize with each other and how important that is).
But he is also a guy who prefers girls on the more petite side. There are men who like women with bigger builds and more meat on their bones.
Well, petite or more meat, very few guys like girls who look sickly…though Susan gave at least one example of a guy who desired that.
Well, the pestering begins because the mothers want to make sure that it get’s done…and soon.
I think that most of those mothers would be happiest with their daughter starting the baby making by her late 20′s.
And, for the East Coast, I grew up in a UMC neighborhood in the wealthiest state in America within the largest metropolitan area in North America.
Also, don’t forget that she is competing with other women. At a certain age (by “certain” read “later”) she gets points for being able to stay home. She “wins” because her husband can afford to give up her income (he’s not a loser) and she can truly raise her children herself (rather than farm it out, out of necessity).
But at a younger age, she “wins” by getting the elite degree, the elite job (“elite” for a girl job is not necessarily about money), the swank apartment in the short list of approved cities, the wardrobe, the lifestyle, etc. If she skips this step or abandons it too early for step two, she “loses.”
Wow Susan, that’s such a different experience from my husband’s teaching experience in Africa. But he was in the Peace Corps in Ghana, which is one of the African nations that does try to put emphasis on education. He taught high school kids who worked hard, cleaned the classroom, carried water buckets for him, called him “sir,” and were generally polite.
I never did TFA even though I went to some recruitment sessions. I wanted to get a job ASAP, which turned out to be a good move because I got two years of work experience in before the economy tanked big time. I wasn’t quite as idealistic of a do-gooder because I came from a financially poor background raised by a crazy single-mother. I went to school with inner city kids and then later private school kids, so I saw the spectrum.
@Brendan
Agreed, the UMC is the last holdout for assortative mating. Most of the parents I’ve known through the years of raising kids have had the same level of education. And that holds true for grad school as well. Lots of couples are both lawyers, both physicians, both shrinks, etc. And of course it’s true in my case as well. No doubt most of us met our spouses in school. At 27, I had no qualms about committing, the timing seemed perfect. I wouldn’t have settled down any earlier than that, I don’t think.
Also, don’t forget that she is competing with other women. At a certain age (by “certain” read “later”) she gets points for being able to stay home. She “wins” because her husband can afford to give up her income (he’s not a loser) and she can truly raise her children herself (rather than farm it out, out of necessity).
But at a younger age, she “wins” by getting the elite degree, the elite job (“elite” for a girl job is not necessarily about money), the swank apartment in the short list of approved cities, the wardrobe, the lifestyle, etc. If she skips this step or abandons it too early for step two, she “loses.”
I agree. The status signaling differs at different ages. It’s quite an elaborately choreographed dance at this point, really.
Agreed, the UMC is the last holdout for assortative mating. Most of the parents I’ve known through the years of raising kids have had the same level of education. And that holds true for grad school as well. Lots of couples are both lawyers, both physicians, both shrinks, etc. And of course it’s true in my case as well.
Definitely this is the norm in the UMC. There are very, very few cases of “marrying out” of the professional social class in the UMC really, for men and women alike. There are cases of women lawyers marrying photographers or artists or what have you as well, but these are not that common, and the artiste is generally also highly educated, if not high earning — some places have more of a cache for this kind 0f thing (Manhattan) than others (DC).
@Hope
My guess is that TFA and the Peace Corps are very, very different experiences. I don’t know a kid who did the Peace Corps, though my father did a stint at the age of 64.
Hope, for what it is worth, the people I know that did the Peace Corp, did not come away scarred by it…they just did not respect it all that much either.
The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.
Lower living expenses probably factor into this. I know many people who start families in their 20s, bought a comfortable house with at least 3 bedrooms, and a vehicle that can support multiple carseats. None of them are doctors, lawyers or super wealthy.
Susan – “She was 26 or so, and we all thought she was just ridiculously young to be there. By the way, she and her husband were high school sweethearts and did not go to college. She was the only young one out of about 40 moms in two classes.”
Holy crap! You and I live on different planets! My ex-wife was 20 when she had her first child (my step-daughter), and she was 25 when she had my son. My current SO was 21 when she had her first child, and about 23 with her second. My mother was 20 when I was born, and her mother (my grandmother) was 21 when my mother was born. I’ve already said that I know of many single mothers in my area, and I’d wager that 75% of them are in their mid to late 20′s, and I bet there are plenty younger that I don’t see because their kids are not school age yet.
I guess this explains why we really don’t see things the same way often. Where I’m at, the only 30-something “new” mothers are probably on their second marriage just getting around to having kids, or having a second bunch for the “new” husband. The rest of us all started in our early to mid 20′s at the latest.
And as far as it goes, my mate and I ARE the “old” parents when we go to school events…
The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.
Lower living expenses probably factor into this. I know many people who start families in their 20s, bought a comfortable house with at least 3 bedrooms, and a vehicle that can support multiple carseats. None of them are doctors, lawyers or super wealthy.
It’s also self-selecting, because the folks from the midwest and mountain west and so on who are “gunning” for higher assortative mating opportunities in, as Escoffier says, “approved cities” (read: coastal cities), tend to migrate away from the midwest and mountain west in favor of the coasts. I met quite a few such people both in California and here on the East Coast as well — people who migrated here after their education (or perhaps as a part of getting it).
@SW
Hopefully, much lower payroll taxes for the rest of us : )
Too bad about Keegan. I have a friend at Yale’s business school who gave me her backstory. Really bright girl.
It’s good to see my generation (late millennial, early Gen X) has a more realistic view financial well-being. “Prestigous career” and “being wealthy” seem to be priorities for upper-class young people, but no one I know personally.
@Ted D
Interestingly, I think there was less variance a generation or two ago. My own mother was 22 when she had me, and that was typical mom age when I was growing up. It was made pretty clear to me as I was raised that I had the opportunity to go a lot further and shouldn’t waste it. My parents were the first in their families to go to college, but they were determined to see the next generation advance beyond that.
Any job can be a job that “makes a difference”. Just take a portion of income you make from that job, and donate it to an efficient charity.
http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/make-money.html
You can save a life for less than $1000.
@GudEnuf
One of my favorite ways to give is micro lending. You can support a family by giving a woman a sewing machine.
I’ve noticed on OkCupid, almost all the female 22/23 year olds on there are college educated and have big ambitions and passions for their career.
Dating someone with a similar education and passion would be nice, but it scares me to think that ‘the numbers’ skew to mostly wannabe “supermoms”.
I really don’t want that kind of life. I like to stay busy, but I don’t like daily stress. Having a supermom wife would definitely cause that.
Plus, the logistical challenges of staying with someone with another demanding career intimidates me. I feel like a couple can only have one “real” career and the other has to be flexible with it.
This is messed up though, because lots of great/desirable women have big ambitions and dreams in their careers.
“I feel like a couple can only have one “real” career and the other has to be flexible with it.”
Why wouldn’t you feel that way? as a human male
“Why wouldn’t you feel that way? as a human male”
Ain’t nothing to do with male, just to do with reality. Career implies moving at one point. My grandfather moved all over the place before he settled down in the Chicago area, and he was offered a much higher position in Tennesse, but eventually he just said fuck it.
Would have been hard for Grandma to have a career when Grandpa was moving around like that all the time.
Speaking as a Millennial who had a long stint of unemployment post-grad: Fuck the ideals, give me money.
Of course, I fight health insurance companies, so I get both.
I am one of those Millennial women who is pursuing her dream career, but I also never want to have children.
Since I don’t want kids, there is really no reason for me to not pursue my career.
It’s definitely about compromise.
The key, for you and your desires, is to find a woman who is comfortable and happy with sacrificing her career. There are indeed women like that out there. You just have to find one.
I’m pretty sure my ex would have have given up her career (engineering) for me. I didn’t let her though. It would have been stupid at the time.
Ted:”Holy crap! You and I live on different planets!”
Sue’s crowd isn’t UMC by any stretch of the imagination. Elites. You haven’t noticed?
I received an email from TFA last year urging me to attend one of their recruitment sessions. However, I had to decline due to the fact that I wasn’t going to graduate until the preceding fall.
Has anyone here worked with TFA? If so, what was it like?
Do they discretely discriminate against individuals with autism disorders like most organizations?
*Following fall, not preceding.
Does planning to do well include not permitting this pathetic situation to continue? -
“In sum, thanks to feminism, very many women slept with too many men for their own happiness; postponed marriage too long to find the right man to marry; are having hired hands do much of the raising of their children; and find they are dating boy-men because manly men are so rare.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/281795/four-legacies-feminism-dennis-prager
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OTC – “Sue’s crowd isn’t UMC by any stretch of the imagination. Elites. You haven’t noticed?”
Well yes. But I guess I never really gave it much thought.
So really, how many people are we talking about up there? I mean, it seems to me there are WAY more working class/lower class young women out here struggling WAY harder than any girl enrolled in Yale or Harvard. I’m not knocking on anyone, but good grief I actually thought the target audience for HUS was a bit more, diverse than this. I’m finding it a bit hard to be sympathetic for these girls this morning. I mean, if they have families that can afford THOSE kinds of schools, what exactly is it they have to complain about? Guys are assholes?! I’m going to bet that a ton of them are probably just as entitled as the young women, and many are probably spoiled brats of a sort. I’m watching 18 year old women getting pregnant around me, and for these ladies the big decisions is NOT career or children. Their a bit past that, and are now on to worrying about how they are going to raise a child with no real income, no education, and no one to help. (because of course they are getting pregnant to wanna be gangster thugs.) And no one is equipping these girls with the knowledge to better themselves. To keep from becoming a “baby mama”. To understand why they are attracted to thugs and “bad boys”, and it seems even about how to actually use birth control.
And I’m not nearly in the worst parts of the city. Not by a long shot.
So HUS is mostly here to help privileged young women find a husband? I’m not saying that isn’t a good thing, but the knowledge here could really be used by people that do not have an ivy league education… It clearly demonstrates to me that the educated and wealthy populations of the U.S. have very little clue about what is going on in the socioeconomic classes below them. If they ever want a real education, they will have to get out of that UMC bubble they live in.
Ted, I would say the strategies would apply to any class.
Also, dating strategies that Susan is offering are not offered in any courses during high school or college. They are either a product of your experience/intelligence, or what your friends/family have fostered in you.
So regardless of class, we are born without the knowledge, and cannot attain it through purchase (like a college class).
Susan,
I wonder how many applicants TFA takes who come from at least somewhat similar inner city lower to lower middle class backgrounds. I’ve heard similar horror stories, but the teacher is always the same; white, UMC to upper class, grew up in the suburbs and has an idealistic view of the world.
Growing up lower middle class at best, in a big city, I can tell you that kids in inner city schools can smell that kind of upper crust background on you. Not to say that I would be able to do much better, as I have no idea, but I am certain I would be able to relate to the kids better which would most likely help a lot.
I stuck around in college for a short time after I graduated in 1966. Temp medical deferment. Did civil rights in MS, and a volunteer program in a challenged neighborhood–it was run by campus sororities, so I figured they could use the help.
Those were the days when everybody, but everybody, was going to save the world, except for the business school people, of course. For most of the world-savers, that meant cutting class on Friday afternoon and tossing the Frisbie to stick it to The Man. Or protest the war or something. Tom Lehrer had a nice song about The Folk Song Army which applied even to people who weren’t singing.
I’ve been involved in volunteer stuff ever since, including the Army for which I volunteered.
What I have learned is that about half of the stuff is for self-congratulations. Try talking to some of the folks about the actual results, and the opportunity costs.
Some of this stuff is an excuse for ducking responsibility.
Head Start, just as an example, is a favorite with a number of groups, despite study after study showing no lasting effect whatsoever. But it’s jobs for somebody.
There’s nothing wrong with commerce, even operating with synthetic derivatives of bundled loser mortgages as long as you don’t break the law.
Money has to move to do anybody any good and it has to be in the most effective places. Big shot finance folks are sort of like the stock guys in super market, except they get to set their own wages.
Point is, you can do any of this stuff while raising a family, if you want to. If not…okay. But take your preening elsewhere. The rest of us are on to it.
Expect MUCH more of this sort of narrative to appear in the mainstream media:
“Hello! I work for a major American women’s magazine and we are looking to speak with a woman JUST like you. We’d like to speak with you (anonymously) as part of a story about the number of sexual partners women have, and their positive and negative feelings about their number, to get a conversation going about this taboo subject. It would be completely anonymous. Please email me at [email address blocked] if you are interested. Thank you so much! –Jen”
Taboo? Apparently not taboo anymore. How does the “planning well” crowd feel about that?
http://www.dearcupid.org/question/would-you-forgive-a-woman-with-an-extremely.html
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I don’t quite know where the line is between “elite” and UMC. I’m not sure it’s so easy to find. Part of the definition of the UMC is that they (we) are the water carriers and high-priced valets of the Davos overclass. So, both “classes” tend to mingle a lot. In fact, they can’t get by without one another. Their tastes, habits, manners, worldviews and looks are essentially the same. Often the only thing distinguishing them is money, which often turns on almost arbitrary decisions. E.g., John graduated from Harvard and joined Goldman and 15 years later is a decamillionaire whereas Jim graduated in the same class and went to work for the NYT, where 15 years later is earning in the (very) low 6 figures. Both those jobs are very prestigious, very hard to get, and there is a lot of competition for them. John will still be happy to associate with Jim, invite him to the Hamptons on weekends, and even have his son marry Jim’s daughter (so long as she looks the part and goes to the right schools). Then the grandkid eventually joins Goldman and he’s a centimillionaire …
It’s not like Upstairs/Downstairs or a Trollope novel where the successful soliciter who is alpha in his circle may see the earl on business in his Westminster office but never get invited to dinner. In fact, the people who work for the Davos overclass and get paid 1/100th of what their bosses earn, are routinely invited to socialize as equals, or close.
“This book is an indispensable manual for the modern man whether he’s single, dating, engaged, or married. The author analyzes the effect female promiscuity is having on American society through a colorful mix of existential and psychological inquisition and humorous first-hand narrative. While ostensibly written for men, the author charts a course that draws readers of both genders into the fight. The reader is brought through a journey of self-awareness and enlightenment in recognizing the unequivocal existence of this social phenomenon. Through a maze of discovery inspired by very explicit and often hilarious incontestable accounts and logical reasoning, the reader is left with deep introspection about staying the course or advocating reform.”
http://books.google.com/books/about/Your_Wife.html?id=TT6VZwEACAAJ
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For a person to talk about his goal to “save the world,” or such, isn’t necessarily a sign of genuine idealism. It’s very likely a sign of conformism, of going along with the attitudes that are expected in a particular circle.
There’s a lot of mythology in the whole “public service” / “nonprofit” thing. A politician who devotes his life to the pursuit of power and adulation isn’t automatically a more moral individual than a businessperson who works to make a profit. Someone who writes papers about agricultural policy while working for a “nonprofit” isn’t morally superior to a farmer who actually grows food or to a trucker who transports it.
Abbot,
It was funny how that dearcupid link was full of ‘you go girl’ support from other females, using shaming language on the bf and calling him insecure. It wasn’t even as if her number was 10 or 20, it was 70! Unreal.
@Ted D
Of course not! Please don’t confuse my own background with my Mission Statement. I’ve always been very open about my own bio. My parents grew up poor in NYC, were the first to go to college. My mother dropped out to get married after her junior year. I grew up solidly middle class. I went to a no-name college but did get my MBA from a good school, and married a fellow graduate.
Despite OTC’s characterization I consider myself UMC. I am not wealthy, and am extremely relieved to be done paying for college. I do have a lovely home and I feel very fortunate.
Finally, in Boston elitism can be intellectual or genealogical in addition to financial. I would describe my crowd as being intellectual, but neither WASPy nor rich. It’s not surprising with all the colleges here, and one of the best medical centers in the world.
@Jason
I’m sure you’re correct. TFA’s perfect applicant is probably someone exactly like you. I will say, though, that my son’s gf did get very close to quite a few of her students, and has gone back to Philadelphia twice this year to visit them. Interestingly, she felt she had the most positive and lasting impact on the pregnant girls, who were receptive to her argument that they owed it to their babies to stay in school. (Most of them planned to have their own moms, around 30, provide childcare.)
Also, I’m sorry to say it but there’s a lot of dead wood among teachers. In her high school, there were 5 or 6 teachers who spent the whole day in the break room, not teaching. I think they actually called it the rubber room. They were there because they had been deemed unfit to continue teaching, but union rules prevent firing them. So they collect full pay and play poker.
There’s a reason TFA has been incredibly successful. Just having a teacher who’s smart and gives a shit helps.
“It was funny how that dearcupid link was full of ‘you go girl’ support from other females, using shaming language on the bf and calling him insecure.”
These flapping lip cheerleaders, promiscuous themselves obviously, conveniently never mention all those other men who benefit from the sexual service. They call the bf insecure as if he is somehow obligated to accommodate these excuses for women and yet make no mention of how “insecure” the other 22, 56 or 70 would be if it was going to be anything more than sex.
Its an anonymous cock. Its an “insecure” man. Its the same man.
Susan – “Please don’t confuse my own background with my Mission Statement. ”
I’m not, but I’ve had this discussion a little bit with Escoffier before, and now more than ever I’m really seeing the disconnect here. I get that UMC women may be seeing a shortage of “good men”, but honestly that isn’t even close to the worst problems out there. I’m starting to feel a bit like I’m on the lower levels of a sinking ship, and the people on deck are still partying and having a good time. And the discussion about “starting a family after 30″ just really drove that home to me. My So went to college AFTER she had two children so she could earn more to try and keep up living in New Hampshire. My ex-wife never finished college, and I didn’t manage to get my degree until just a few years back because my employer paid for it. I know several people that are currently using Phoenix U. or other online colleges to finally get a degree as well, and these are folks in their 30′s and 40′s. I guess I’m saying that most of the people I know didn’t have much of a choice, or at least most of them didn’t see that they had many choices. And my daughter who is graduating from high school this week has several friends that are pregnant and under 21 years old. These aren’t stupid girls. They have been to my house, had dinner at my table, and told me about what they wanted to do with their lives. One of them was afraid to tell me she was pregnant, but she told her parents by text message…
I’m frustrated because it all seems like such a waste to me. There are guys running around acting like “bad boys” (admittedly some of them probably ARE real bad boys) because it gets them laid, and all these young, smart girls fall for it over, and over, and over again. They are behaving in ways that make the ‘sphere at large look like it is correct, and it depresses me to no end, because it doesn’t have to be this way. I’ve looked these girls in the eyes, and saw that they wanted something better for themselves. And yet the next time they encountered some dude with “swagger”, they jumped into bed with him and got pregnant. Of course my first question was “did you use birth control?” One answered “we didn’t have any” (it took all I had to contain my outburst of THEN DO NOT HAVE SEX) and the other said the guy told her the condom broke. Of course, she didn’t actually SEE him even put one on, so my guess is he just lied to go bare back. That one was planning on going to nursing school, was a straight A student, and did great on her SATs. What. The. Hell…
*deep breath*
So yeah, I’ve been in a pretty shitty state of mind the past few weeks. I’m just disgusted by much of what I see going on around me, and I feel mostly powerless to do a damn thing about it. Yet I know many of the reasons why this is all happening, and it really is maddening some days. The problem is, the “fix” is not in any way politically correct, so instead everyone will just keep on drinking while the ship sinks. Eventually the deck will start to flood, and I have to wonder what the passengers up there will think when they realize they had plenty of time to do something about it.
“They were there because they had been deemed unfit to continue teaching, but union rules prevent firing them. So they collect full pay and play poker.”
And there is another reason many cities are in the shitter: crappy public school systems. I grew up surrounded by mill guys. My grandfather, my uncles, and some of my cousins worked in steel mills and of course they were all very pro-union. The problem is, unions are no longer any help for workers, they are just another political organization concerned with its own power and influence. I’ve gotten into “heated debates” with a few friends that have teachers in their family because I firmly believe the teachers union is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the crappy state of our public schools. Things like the example above prove to me that the union doesn’t care one bit about our children’s education, and at least some of the member teachers don’t either. If I was honest, I’d say the union is 75 to 85% responsible, and the rest should be shared by school administration and the federal government. I would put more blame on administration, but they are completely hampered by the teachers union from being able to actually manage their schools how they see fit, so to me it would be like blaming a fireman for not saving a burning house that someone doused with gas and lit with a match. At that point, the best they can do is keep the fire from spreading, and in many cases school administration can only do their best to keep collateral damage to a minimum. To be clear, collateral damage in that context is OUR CHILDREN not getting a proper education. I’ve gone to school board meetings in my district with a few other involved parents, and I’ve learned that it isn’t a lack of desire from the administration that often hampers improvement efforts, it is the union rules and regulations that have their hands tied.
“I’m on the lower levels of a sinking ship, and the people on deck are still partying and having a good time”
That’s about right and it explains California very well.
You might console yourself with the thought that we are going to drown too, just a little later you do. However, I am not sure that is true.
To me this is THE biggest question about “the future” and the direction of society and I don’t know the answer. Can the UMC Bubble/Davos Archipeligo survive forever, no matter what happens everywhere else? Now, the Davos class does not recognize that there is a problem. To them, everything is fine, more of the same, please and thank you. I think that is obviously wrong however it is the ruling idea in the high-functioning part of the world today. Greece and the Spanish banks and the Euro aside, the Davos class thinks this is a technical problem that it can fix if only the damned voting/marching masses butt out of things they don’t understand. So, they deny there is even a problem below decks.
We, however, know that is not true. Those in the UMC who are dimly aware of the problem, it seems to me, force themselves to believe that no matter what happens below decks, quality of life above decks can be maintained indefinitely. To change metaphors, they believe the UMC bubble is self-contained and impregnable.
There are arguments to be made on both sides. I don’t know which are stronger.
Escoffier – “To change metaphors, they believe the UMC bubble is self-contained and impregnable.”
That may be true, but it sure does suck for the majority of us on the lower levels. And frankly, it is a bit off-putting to think that most of those living in the UMC bubble really do feel like the rest of us are expendable. But, I can say with 100% assurance that there are FAR more people below deck than on deck, and those people having fun up there better hope the doors keeping people out of their party hold tight. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut (in the interests of full disclosure, I would like to point out again that I am not completely against a real revolution in this country at this point) I can’t help but wonder why the upper class isn’t concerned at all. Didn’t they all take history? Does no one remember the French revolution?
I’ll say this. If it gets bad, REALLY bad in the U.S. of A. anyone with money better get out of town and hide. Because all of the poor slobs that have been stuck on the lower levels are going to rip the shit out of the upper deck the second they get access.
To be honest, I feel a bit like a poser even talking about this, because I KNOW beyond all doubt that what *I* see everyday isn’t the worst. Obsidian has talked about the black community, and I know that the predominantly black areas around here are very rough places to live. The thing is, it is spreading to neighborhoods like mine and even beginning to encroach on more upscale areas. Sure, they can police their own just fine, but the masses accumulating at their doors are starting to climb the walls. And they don’t care about the rules at all.
Sorry Susan. I’m going WAY off the subject, but I find that this all ties together to form one massively depressing picture. What UMC folks see as a lack of “good men” down here looks like a complete disaster of epic proportions. It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home. And the sad part is, if they were divorced I would actually feel better about it. But no, many of them are simply young women that got pregnant to another useless lump of flesh shaped like a man. If you really want to see a lack of “good men”, come visit sometime. I can probably pull together a group of young women from my area that can tell you a thing or two that will scare the hell out of you. It scares me…
“they’re still not interested in marriage, co-habitation, or in anything serious with women.”
Ah, but look at the current slut venting series-
Sluts walk – just google that
Sluts vote – http://www.thisslutvotes.com/index.html
Sluts marry! – expect that very soon
“misleading them is kinda naughty”
actually, it is the self serving, agenda driven and behaviorally insecure feminists who are misleading women
Ted, it’s not that they think the lower orders are expendable. It’s that they think they (the UMC and above) have all the answers and if only their entire program could be implemented, it will all work out for everyone.
However there is also a strain, not the dominant strain but a strong and growing strain, which holds that national borders are irrelvant. It doesn’t matter if “sound policy” hollows out or destroys the American working and middle classes so long as people somewhere else benefit. If one American LMC worker loses his job but ten peasants in China rise to the MC, that is a good trade. A lot of people in the Davos class believe this.
I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?
@Ted
I get what you’re saying about socioeconomic status, which is a very real divider in the SMP. But I don’t see why one group should be more responsible for the solution than any other group. It’s about personal responsibility – why kick it up to the deck?
Awesome. So now hair loss is caused by having a family.
I love it when people are smart.
@Ted D
As someone who was very active in my kids’ schools, I will say that I am extremely anti Teachers Union. I support extensive standardized testing for that reason – we need to quantify what kids are learning to expose these abuses.
Escoffier, I’m not sure how I feel about that, even though I was born in China and later became an American citizen. The kind of jobs being exported are not great jobs, and the profits mostly float to the top. But that’s more on the economics side, and I’m not going to delve too much into it.
Socially speaking, Asia is also undergoing upheaval. The masses of poor in Asia are a lot more socially conservative than the upper class. The rural and impoverished are not promiscuous and work hard to try to make a better life. The new middle class and richer are the ones engaging in the same stuff they see in Western media.
The dam holding some of this back is the fact that the elite in China are very controlling and try to censor the media, so as to ensure that the sexual debauchery doesn’t get out of control. There was a dating TV show that was very popular which got cancelled and replaced with cultural programming. In addition to censoring politics on the Internet, they firewall porn. It makes some sense given the traditions of “face” and “propriety.”
But basically, low socioeconomic status does not always lead to promiscuity and high out-of-wedlock birth rates. There’s a large cultural component to sexual conservatism and its relationship with SES.
@ Hope
Seriously, why can’t they take their drivel where it’s actually appreciated and encouraged? Why do they insist on saying the same shit over and over again here? Why?
“Sluts” are bad. We get it.
Move the fuck on.
@Hope
Susan – you misunderstand my point. I’m not laying the blame at the upper deck, but let’s face it, the folks up there have much more ability and resources to do something now before it reaches them, yet most seem to be completely oblivious to what’s going on. Surely it isn’t anyone individual person’s fault, but as the saying goes “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (I might have butchered the actual quote…). UMC folks have the ability to actually influence and change/make policy. As you pointed out, they are lawyers, and doctors, and politicians. The average guy on the street has little to no chance to make any significant difference short of outright violence against other people, but folks with money and power have the ability to make sweeping changes with minimal effort.
In terms of HUS, I see the knowledge shared here and in the ‘sphere that could really help some of these young women. (yes Richard, I know they are no angels. It doesn’t change the fact that they are in an environment that sets them up to fail at every turn…) most men in the ‘sphere are either indifferent to this plight or actively counsel other men to take advantage of women with “daddy issues” as if they are of no worth at all short of a place to drop a load. These guys are sending young men out to take advantage of the young girls I shared meals with, and it makes my blood boil. I’ve said before that I understand why a guy might go full PUA once discovering game because the attitude in the ‘sphere is one of selfishness and narcissism. But even here the subject of how things are in what I consider to be the “real world” are often glossed over or minimized because it doesn’t fit the mold. I’m trying to do something to help, but it’s an awful lot like pissing in the wind. The same girl that months ago asked my advice for after graduation is now signing up for public housing and assistance because her “baby daddy” sells his food stamps for .50 on the dollar so he can buy beer and fast food. Is it her fault? Absolutely, and she admits it. But the thing is, nobody ever told her to avoid these kinds of men. Nobody explained to her why she should avoid them, or why she would even find them attractive. She’s never seen what dominance looks like if it isn’t wrapped in sagging jeans and a hoodie, and she said she expects to “do it all herself” because “she can never depend on a man to live up to his responsibilities” or in other words, she doesn’t believe she will ever have access to men that aren’t douchebags.
Wow. Ted, that is the first thing I’ve really heard you say that I completely disagree with. You’ve forced me to agree with Richard, and for that, I resent you. I’m not one of those guys whose all about blaming the women, but come on! Seriously?
“But the thing is, nobody ever told her to avoid these kinds of men. Nobody explained to her why she should avoid them, or why she would even find them attractive. She’s never seen what dominance looks like if it isn’t wrapped in sagging jeans and a hoodie, and she said she expects to “do it all herself” because “she can never depend on a man to live up to his responsibilities” or in other words, she doesn’t believe she will ever have access to men that aren’t douchebags.”
Sorry, dude. But that sounds an awful lot like the woman who spilled coffee all over herself and then sued McDonalds because “nobody told her the coffee was going to be hot”. There are some things you just have to take responsibility for figuring out yourself. Nobody told me that women who cheat on their husbands or smoke meth are a bad choice for a mate, either. But somehow I figured it out on my own and managed to avoid sleeping with those women.
I’m down on the douchebags too. But those girls are responsible for their choices, just like everyone else. And yes, I know you preceded your statement with “Is it her fault? Absolutely, and she admits it.”, but then you turned right around and completely excused her of all responsibility in the next sentence.
The fact of the matter is, if she can’t figure out that those dudes are probably not the best boyfriend/ husband/ baby daddy material without someone to explain it to her, then she probably shouldn’t leave the house, because she’s too stupid to function in society without hurting herself.
@Ted D
As a practical matter, what policy changes would you suggest? Most of what we discuss here is not controlled by government or politicians. How can policy change the SMP? To the extent that I do have any influence, I attempt to use it for the greater good, but I am not alone. I know many highly educated people working for causes that are important to them, including teen motherhood.
It seems to me that what you’re describing with that young woman is a massive breakdown of family. Why didn’t her own parents tell her what men to avoid? If she believes all men are douchebags, why get involved with one? I see weakness and irresponsibility here.
Hope:
“I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?”
——–
While painful to read, I think they’re providing a public service to the decent folks who are trying to navigate the SMP, by letting us look into their thought process. Personally, I save these comments as invaluable teaching material on who and what to avoid, but that’s just me.
@Susan
“what policy changes would you suggest?… How can policy change the SMP? ”
The problems are not simply in government policy, the problem is in a lack of objective morality. Public policy in democracies mainly reflect common ideas about justice, right and wrong. As such as the people’s ideas about the nature of right and wrong change governmental policy reflects that.
Under the comstock laws contraception was banned in the United States. In 1930 the Lambeth conference of the Anglican communion voted to allow contracetption in extreme moral circumstances, and only if abstinence was impossible. In 1965 the Supreme Court discovered a penumbra of privacy (a penumbra comes from latin which means almost a shadow) and declared that there is no way contraception can be interfered with. In 1973 the same court cited their earlier discovery of these constitutional shadows to declare abortion the new state sacrament.
Today the Federal government is threatening to shutter Catholic universities, who accept no public funds, if they don’t pay for abortions. Eric Holder is forcing Mississippi universities to open wide the doors of the female bathroom stalls to any d. in drag. Scotland is wasting billions revising all their medical documentation to remove all references about “fathers” in their state funded medical system, because it makes lesbians who know not their inseminators feel bad. Doctors and hospitals are being sued into bankruptcy because they wouldn’t perform a penile mutilation (sex change) surgery when hospitals nearby were eager. In New Mexico wedding photographers are being threatened with imprisonment if they do not pay thousands of dollars to homosexuals who want to use them as their photographers and the photographers refuse due to moral objections.
Public policy? Ha. That is not where the battle lies. Public ethos is.
The number one show for incredibly impressionable teenage girls is little short of forty minutes of hedonistic advocacy.
Any civilization not founded in an objective external morality is destined for tyranny.
Ethos > Ideas > Public Policy
Meh, its not like Richard or Abbot are starting a flame war. Leave them be.
@ Ted
” It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home. And the sad part is, if they were divorced I would actually feel better about it. But no, many of them are simply young women that got pregnant to another useless lump of flesh shaped like a man.”
Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option. These are women that HAVE DEMONSTRATED their inability to correctly choose a mate not only for sex but for actual child bearing. The divorced ones have shown, ontop of that first part, that they really don’t give a damn about their husbands and feel no sense of commitment.
Also, while she might be telling the truth at that time, I personally would never trust the affections of a woman with a kid. Knowing what I do now about how much women live in the world of their emotions, how much of that ‘affection’ she feels towards me would be tied up in the resources of time, energy, money, and emotional support that she’d be getting from me to help raise a child that IS NOT MINE? How long before she comes to see those things as something she deserves as a right, just like she obviously deserves the previous poor bastard’s child support/alimony, instead of something I’m freely giving her?
No. Just no. A single mother is never ‘a quality date’ unless she’s a very, VERY rare exception to the rule. And she should have to work uphill to prove that to a man right from the start.
Hope, you can substitute any other nation for China. The point is, to members of this class, they have no national loyalty or fellow feeling for other citizens at all. They think of themselves as a borderless overclass whose true loyalty and fellow-feeling are owed only to each other.
Ted/Susan, it’s all well and good to say that we all bear responsibility for society’s direction, and true as far as it goes, but the UMC overwhelmingly controlls the commanding heights, sets the agenda and tone of the discourse, decides what can be discussed on what terms, and runs the actual political institutions.
Leap, they may not be starting a war, but they are shitting in someone elses backyard.
“Meh, its not like Richard or Abbot are starting a flame war. Leave them be.”
Correction. They WEREN’T starting a flame war until you didn’t leave them be.
Ugh.
@ Sassy
“I am one of those Millennial women who is pursuing her dream career, but I also never want to have children.
Since I don’t want kids, there is really no reason for me to not pursue my career.”
Fair enough. Honestly I’m doing much the same – though setting myself up to get a university position teaching theatre later in life. More stability for when I stop wanting to do this whole independent artist thing and, if I chose to and find a woman worth having kids with, ability to do that as well.
Till then, I’ll keep love making a living as an artist. Make many of my own hours, work in coffee shops half the time, with my hands covered in paint or saw dust the rest of the time.
Chasing a dream is good. Just make sure you run fast enough to catch it while still enjoying the journey on the way.
@ Hope
“The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.”
Which is why I love Chicago and am glad I grew up in Golden, Colorado. There are more women here who are feminine and honest human beings instead of commercialized career grrrrrrrls.
That being said, more is not majority. At least to this mid-20′s artist, I still have to wade through a ton of women to find those needles in haystacks. There’s just more needles out here and less fish that view me as a bicycle.
Look, if you want to discuss things like Divorce Rape, go nuts…but try to pretend like you are in her living room and not lobbing shit-bombs from over the fence.
Richard,
If your comments are directed at mine, then state so directly.
About young men not interested in marrying:
If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.
My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t. Is there something about this that offends you?
“About young men not interested in marrying:
If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.
My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t.”
What is sad is the effort needed these days to be protected or feel protected.
Is all this really worth it?:
http://boldanddetermined.com/2012/01/21/pick-the-right-wife/
.
“@leap
“Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option. ”
I think you misread his point. He was not saying he was finding it hard to sympathize with men who can’t get a date (although he may well not sympathize with them for other reasons) or that men should seek out single moms. I think he was saying that he found it hard sympathize with privileged young women complaining about lack of dating options when the LMC and lower class women have it so much worse. Although he didn’t make that point all that well by pointing to LMC and lower class single moms, IMO.
But, fundamentally, he seemed to be saying to Susan’s female audience here is mostly complaining about rich people’s problems.
Abbot:
“What is sad is the effort needed these days to be protected or feel protected.
Is all this really worth it?:”
———-
‘Splain pleez?
That one was planning on going to nursing school, was a straight A student, and did great on her SATs. What. The. Hell…
Evolution Ted, Evolution we are racing against a system that has been working for million of years with the only purpose of past their genes. They will use all their hind-brain power to override the superior brain. Had you ever heard that concept of being intoxicated by someone’s presence? I’m not sure if there had been studies but I wouldn’t be surprised that being around a person of the opposite sex that is highly sexually attractive and the female of the pair is ovulating creates a similar effect in the brain that alcohol’s does. Just a theory but trust me I had seen a lot of really “smart” girls and boys doing the dumbest things and getting pregnant half the time. One of the sexual education talks we plan to cover for our kids “If you feel that you are going to die if you don’t have sex that very moment with an specific person you are very likely in ovulation stage, please run and get a cold shower: Really horny = baby” Hope kids get it.
I can’t help but wonder why the upper class isn’t concerned at all. Didn’t they all take history? Does no one remember the French revolution?
There is a lot of theories about this one had the theory that the crazy SMP is the modern equivalent of “bread and circus” so the people at the top don’t have to compete with the wealth with the people that might be climbing and they would be easy to manipulate too. Somedays I beleive is true.
While painful to read, I think they’re providing a public service to the decent folks who are trying to navigate the SMP, by letting us look into their thought process. Personally, I save these comments as invaluable teaching material on who and what to avoid, but that’s just me.
You know I love you Abbot but this is the most articulated that you had been on the forum. Is kind of nice. Most of the time you look like a crazy guy with a megaphone crying “The end is night…” ala Rorschach. Maybe you should write more like this one in a while in between “yells” it would make more people pay attention to what you link IMO.
Oops mistake. I though I read Abbot, my bad. Ignore it.
Travis – “Sorry, dude. But that sounds an awful lot like the woman who spilled coffee all over herself and then sued McDonalds because “nobody told her the coffee was going to be hot”.”
There certainly is a bit of that mixed in there, no doubt. And like I said, at least in one case the young women in question readily admits it was her own stupidity that got here where she is. Of course to me and most of us it looks like she should have “known” better. I said that EXACT thing when I first found out. The fact that she “should” have known but somehow didn’t is not only a failure on her part to be smarter, but a failure somewhere to instill in her some type of better value system. Which leads me to Susan’s question…
“Why didn’t her own parents tell her what men to avoid? If she believes all men are douchebags, why get involved with one?”
I can’t answer the second question, because I honestly didn’t even bother to ask her. To the first? Her parents are divorced, and she lived with her mother and step-father. Now to the best of my knowledge there was no type of abuse or neglect from a legal point, but the simple truth is they really weren’t good parents. She told them she was pregnant by text because she didn’t even respect them enough to say it to their face. And of course they immediately kicked her out of the house.
“As a practical matter, what policy changes would you suggest? “
OK, I’m going to go a bit into political stuff here, because despite this site being about the SMP, the core of the issues here come down to family values kinda stuff. I would like to see more policy that actually SUPPORTS family lifestyle, and much less that supports other models. (that is, supporting unwed single mothers through my tax dollars, and massive overhaul of the family court system.) I disagree that what we discuss here is not controlled by politics and government, because it is the federal government that provides the environment that promotes the dysfunction of the SMP. I really hate discussing this, because every single time I am made out to be some bible thumping southerner that wants to put women back in the kitchen. But the truth is, if we as a society do not place any value on solid families, and our government puts most of its efforts into doing things that work against the formation and maintenance of solid families, what we will see is the end of the family unit. In fact, what I’ve been saying all day is: that ship has sailed. Probably not for everyone of course, and some people (UMC for one) aren’t seeing it much at all, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening to large numbers of folks. These attitudes start at the top, from the people with power and influence, and then trickle down to the lower classes. To me there really isn’t much to be done at the bottom end except endure it. They can vote all they want, sign all the petitions they want, and if they can even participate a bit in the process. But all it takes to get something done at the top is for one or two key people to support it. It is the same old same repeated over and over in human history, I know. The people in power don’t care about the people under them until they show up with torches to burn down their castle.
Donkey – Thank you! Your post said much of what I wanted to and couldn’t put into words.
LoaB – “Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option.”
I said no such thing anywhere! I’m advocating that we figure out how to create less single mothers, not how to marry them up to beta men. I’m sorry if I gave you that impression somewhere, but that wasn’t my intent.
Of course I say that having married a woman with a child once upon a time. I’m no longer with that woman, but I am personally thankful that the child is still a major part of my life. But seriously, I would not suggest to any man that it is a “good” idea, and even under the best of circumstances it is a very tough road to travel. For me personally, I see it as improving one child’s life, even if it cost me some of my own. I’m OK with that, because to me it is an investment in the legacy I leave behind. She isn’t my blood, but she was raised with my values and at least some of my ideals and after I’m gone my hope is that she will continue that legacy. But you know that I view the purpose of life far differently than you, so I don’t expect you to see it from my perspective. It was a sacrifice for sure, but one I made willingly (albeit on false information and pretenses) and she wouldn’t be the person she is today if I wasn’t a part of her life. Of all the things I have accomplished in my life, seeing her from a child into early adulthood (as if 18 is really an adult…) is by far one of my greatest achievements. And one that I am very proud of. Obviously it wasn’t a picture perfect childhood, and in the end she still comes from a “broken” home. But I still gave her a better shot, and I will continue to support her regardless of the fact that she carries none of my DNA.
Escoffier – “Ted/Susan, it’s all well and good to say that we all bear responsibility for society’s direction, and true as far as it goes, but the UMC overwhelmingly controlls the commanding heights, sets the agenda and tone of the discourse, decides what can be discussed on what terms, and runs the actual political institutions.”
This exactly.
Alias – “My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t. Is there something about this that offends you?”
You just summed up my view on “people” in general very well. I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking that most people generally suck.
@ Passer by
Ahhhh…. gotcha. I guess I’ll wait and see if clarifies what he meant.
As for Susan being upper class… Did that really shock anyone here? She’s always been honest with her background – so anyone reading her personal experience stories needs to keep that in mind. Which is why I don’t really respond to her personal stories of women who go to her for advice in person or are part of her women meeting things she had.
Its not that I discredit their experience. It’s that, even after having lived in Boston for a year during grad school, their world and experience in the SMV is so unlike mine as a 26 year old male working in theatre that it would be naive, at best, for me to try and relate. Plus I hated all of Boston that had to do with meeting anyone outside of theatre, especially women. So if they’re a part of that, and enjoy it, then I REALLY have nothing to offer.
Richard
If you think *I’m* here to defend the destruction of families/society, then I’ll let you know that I’m definitely not. What I don’t see is an easy fix besides on the micro-level, with each individual.
*I’m* not in favor of anyone taking advantage of good men.
Thanks for clarifying abbot’s point, what I was really asking is if he was specifically directing this at me, I’m not sure if he was. ?
What’s wrong with my statement?
“If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.”
Out of all people, I didn’t expect abbot to oppose that one.
” Plus I hated all of Boston that had to do with meeting anyone outside of theatre, especially women. So if they’re a part of that, and enjoy it, then I REALLY have nothing to offer.”
And I should clarify that I say this as a male that moved to Chicago not knowing a single soul in the city, now is successfully networking both professionally and personally, and goes out to bars/pubs with friends and solo on a regular basis. Hell, earlier this week I invited two people I met at a coffee shop back to my stoop to drink with me and we had a blast of a conversation.
Is the same issue with Kate Bolick at 39 “finding herself single” which makes no sense if she never actually actively worked to get married, YMMV.
—-
Anacaona,
You’re right; this makes absolutely no sense. Not every woman is foaming at the mouth to be a wife and mother (I am not and that is for sure…nothing against any woman who is). I remember the many harsh words that were tossed at Kate Bolick on this blog regarding her article in ‘Atlantic’ and I was like give a gimme a break. Do men (and some women) really still think that the best thing a woman could achieve in her lifetime is being some man’s wife, really?
I am pretty much knocking at the spinsterhood’s door at this point. I have never wanted children so marriage was never this monumental goal. Yeah, I could drop all my standards if I were desperate enough and find my husband in probably a month from now but it is not that serious for me. I am not saying that I would not like the idea of being married, but not so that I can avoid spinsterhood and judgment. What marry some poor schlub and be miserable (when I am not now) just to say, “Hey, look at me I got a husband!” (I actually know women like this). At least, if you’re single and miserable there is some hope of finding someone you could be happy with but to be married and miserable…you’re rather stuck.
By the way, it is not 1950-something.
LoaB – “Ahhhh…. gotcha. I guess I’ll wait and see if clarifies what he meant.”
Yeah, my bad for writing horribly. I’m just really worked up over this crap. It’s one thing to talk about it all online with a bunch of strangers, but another to see it in my own life. You know what really made me sad? One of my first thoughts was “thank God it isn’t my daughter.” I’ve always done my best to treat this girl as family, but in the end my own selfishness was first and foremost in my mind.
Ted D:
” most people generally suck.”
———
^^^
That’s even better than what I wrote and straight to the point. ha
Contrary to how that paints me, I don’t walk around all cynical and paranoid. Most people have the potential to do better, but many times they don’t for various reasons, so I don’t expect it. I’m interested in finding solutions so that fewer people suck.
“It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home”
Ted, I think you are the greatest troll I’ve ever met on the internet. Keep stirring the pot, man. I’m enjoying the discussion.
I am now going to speak for all men everywhere and say that what most of us were reacting to in that article was her tone and tenor.
I present, article A:
And, article B:
“Everywhere I turn…”.
It was things like that that made some of us react the way we did.
You don’t have to agree, but I think that you can understand.
My vote for Greatest HUS Troll goes to Liza, or maybe Tom.
@Liza
The issue is that Kate did used the word “found herself single” and she admits that she knows exactly when she should had married and her article was about regretting it but trying to do what was best what was left of her life. I don’t think that if she had said “I never wanted children or marriage” men would had been so harsh. She earned the scorn because she was practically saying that a go getter woman is completely incapable of marry just because…she made her bed and should lie on it.
At least, if you’re single and miserable there is some hope of finding someone you could be happy with but to be married and miserable…you’re rather stuck.
Who taught you that? Being single and miserable also means that you might die and on one will find your body till the smell alerts the neighbors. People on unhappy marriage that stay in then recover after the bad times report being happy again. There is no such a thing as being stuck with someone. Is called enduring the bad times like the wedding vows say for better or worse. I don’t know if you come from a broken home but my parents had been together for 35 years and I saw them elated on happiness, miserable and bored and now content. Nothing in this life is static even friendships have lows, you might personally consider that being with another person always have to bee good, so is good that you don’t want to marry, but there is no such a thing as “being married is being stuck and be single is being free” Those are states of mind, you an be stuck as a permanent singleton full of cats and be free in a marriage, I particularly never feel freer more productive, happy, daring, brave, sexy and hopeful than when I was single and dating (which I hated), YMMV.
Alias – “Contrary to how that paints me, I don’t walk around all cynical and paranoid. Most people have the potential to do better, but many times they don’t for various reasons, so I don’t expect it. I’m interested in finding solutions so that fewer people suck.”
Exactly! Just about everyone has the potential to be better. I’m mostly interested in figuring out what it takes to motivate people to actually DO better. And as much as I appear to by cynical here, I really am not a cynical person. Which is partly why these recent pregnancies have me so upset. I actually thought these girls would do better. They talked the talk, but in the end they failed to walk the walk. So I ask myself: why then did they fail? They aren’t stupid by any means. They at least gave lip service to knowing better, so they can’t claim they were ignorant. They were making plans for a future, so at least on some level they wanted to do better. So I’m really at a loss. There is a failing here besides their own poor judgment.
@Donkey
I agree with that. The most useful thing we can do is get ideas into the public sphere and initiate discussion and debate. If I didn’t think that could make a difference, I wouldn’t be engaged in the exercise of writing a blog. My background and financial security make it possible for me to undertake the exercise. I don’t kid myself though – I’ve had enough uncomfortable moments at dinner parties to know that I am never going to influence public policy around feminism and female privilege. That’s why my goal is to work at the margins. Unfortunately, the nature of the medium means that a whole segment of the population just isn’t going to hear what I have to say.
Underdog – “Ted, I think you are the greatest troll I’ve ever met on the internet. Keep stirring the pot, man. I’m enjoying the discussion.”
Glad you are entertained. Do I get a metal or a trophy? As I understand it, everyone gets one just for showing up. But I figure I deserve something better.
Richard and Abbot are not cut from the same cloth. Abbot hates promiscuity and feminism but he likes women. He married one. Richard II (he’s more like the III) is an unpleasant, bitter, and angry male who loathes women.
Abbot’s annoying but I wouldn’t kick him out of my house. I’d call the police on Richard.
“So I ask myself: why then did they fail? ”
————-
The parents share a good portion of the blame because they’re the most influential. Perhaps sex ed should be aimed at parents.
Here’s one that’s never addressed and one of the most effective, IMO, but least talked about strategies to preventing teen pregnancy.
“Avoidance of places and situations that might lead to sex.”
http://www.cdc.gov/TeenPregnancy/AboutTeenPreg.htm
I got that Kate Bolick was regretful about her choice but it is not like she cannot still get married. She obviously refuses to settle for less than what she wants. If she decided to settle she would be married, it is not that hard. I have never been sold on marriage being the best situation for facilating happiness (it is the best for having children). No else can make someone else happy. I believe happiness is a state of mind not something that can achieved or received through external means or something giving it to you. Sure, sharing my life with someone who really cared about me would definitely enhance my life but expecting them to make me happy because I am not already is a definite recipe for disaster.
Anacaona, you were probably all the things you mentioned before you met your husband. He probably enhanced those qualities but he was not solely responsible.
I’ll be the first to admit they’re first world problems, but they’re definitely not rich people’s problems. The culture affects all young people, and I have grown tired of debating who has it worse. Could things be worse for college students? Yeah, they could be pregnant by a crack head. That doesn’t mean they’re lucky and thriving. Everyone is welcome here, but it makes sense that the audience here, and at every blog online in fact, is going to be read by people who get online and google search for answers to problems. If a young woman doesn’t do that, I have no way of helping her.
Susan – “I’ve had enough uncomfortable moments at dinner parties to know that I am never going to influence public policy around feminism and female privilege.”
Is it really that bad? I see a ton of political crap surrounding feminism, but is it really also that deeply ingrained in Left-leaning UMC life in general? I know it is very deeply ingrained in academia, but I always secretly hoped that most of the “supporters” were only giving it all lip service to tow the party line, and didn’t actually believe it to be true.
I hate to say it, but it does lend a bit of credibility to the voices out in the dark screeching that the democratic party is full of communists that are hell bent on destroying America as we have come to know it. I’m not implying that the Republican party is any better mind you, but they wrap themselves in the cloak of “family values” and “faith based morality” to try and deflect the fact that they aren’t helping either. But at least from them I get the impression that they are selling us to the Chinese for simple profit, while the left is selling us out because they actually believe that the “American Way (TM)” is wrong. If it comes down to it, I prefer being screwed over for profit rather than ideology, but I guess the end result is the same.
Mrs. Walsh,
I believe your blog has had far more impact than you think.
Especially in the real world on young people’s lives and decisions.
Ted, it is almost impossible to overstate the level of PC stultification in the Blue city UMC.
The girls in my women meeting things are a diverse bunch, definitely not all from privileged backgrounds, but they are all college educated. That hardly makes them elites. Most of my BU crew are teachers now, none of them are rich or likely to become rich.
The SMP dynamics I write about describe college hookup culture, and the post-grad 20s experience. I don’t really think it makes much difference whether one is at an Ivy, a large state school, a small private college, NYC, Michigan, Berkeley or Austin. The same things are going on everywhere.
LOL! A girl who lives in Boston, doesn’t work in theater, and enjoys life is bad news! I hope guys in Boston heed this warning! How is Emerson going to handle the hordes of young men descending on its theater craft department?
Too bad we don’t have Jess to kick around anymore.
Surely Plain Jane in all her incarnations wins this dubious award hands down?
I am not familiar with Plane Jane. I have a soft spot for Liza, though, the Official HUS Indavertent Stereotype Confirmer. Maybe NAWALT, but she definitely is!
Tom is really a one-trick troll.
BTW, Sue, nobody stays in Berkeley after graduation unless they are going to grad school or have become a hippie and just want to waste away. For anyone in your cohort, they will immediately move across the Bay if staying up north or go to LA. Or to some other big metro area back east. Berkeley has no 20s scene whatsoever. SF has a huge one, though.
Eventually when people hit big but they can’t afford PacHeights they may settle for the Berkeley Hills. The views are very nice. The food markets are, IMO, the best in the US that I know of. Especially produce.
@Ted D
Escoffier is right – it’s impossible to overstate how PC most elites are in the Blue states. What gets me most is the hypocrisy. You should see all my liberal friends bending over backwards to opine that Elizabeth Warren applying to Harvard and Penn as a Native American (she claims to be 1/32, it is unsubstantiated) is not the same as lying on an application. It was the same with the Clinton Lewinsky scandal.
I find that many local women my age are happy to disapprove of hookup culture, as they claim their daughters have never hooked up with anyone. When I say that it’s a direct result of feminism and the Sexual Revolution their nostrils flare and their eyes narrow. I’m surprised I get invited anywhere, to be honest.
I got that Kate Bolick was regretful about her choice but it is not like she cannot still get married. She obviously refuses to settle for less than what she wants. If she decided to settle she would be married, it is not that hard. I have never been sold on marriage being the best situation for facilating happiness (it is the best for having children). No else can make someone else happy.
This is like an unemployed person saying I could be employed if I found my dream job, you are still unemployed. You are also assuming that what someone wants is good regardless if is realistic, possible or even if the man she wants will want her back. There is a lot of PC BS on this concept that if I dream with a pink unicorn that rides me to the sky I shouldn’t buy and love a Toyota and that makes me smart and empowered and in control of my life. There is such a thing as delusion.
I believe happiness is a state of mind not something that can achieved or received through external means or something giving it to you. Sure, sharing my life with someone who really cared about me would definitely enhance my life but expecting them to make me happy because I am not already is a definite recipe for disaster.
I agree with the part of not expecting someone else to make you happy, but that a lot different than being single is the same as being married. We are social creatures and even if we can survive and do good alone and we thrive on couple hood.
Anacaona, you were probably all the things you mentioned before you met your husband. He probably enhanced those qualities but he was not solely responsible.
I might had been but I didn’t feel them, or knew how to embrace them. Now that I know I have someone to catch me I’m not afraid to jump. If you want to keep telling yourself that marriage is independent of your state of being that is your prerogative but I totally disagree. That is modern BS, PC talk. Marrying good is better than being single, divorced or marrying bad.
@Donkey
Thanks for the kind words, they help me renew my energy.
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