Millennials Plan to Do Well By Doing Good

May 30, 2012

The Rutgers Center for Workplace Development has realeased What Workers Want in 2012,   a survey that canvassed 1,726 adults of various ages for information about their life priorities. The results show some interesting attitudinal differences among four generational groups:

  • Boomers
  • Gen X
  • Millennials
  • College students

Source: NYX's Economix blog

 

Summary descriptions from the report:

Baby Boomers

Defined as those between 49 and 65 at the time of the survey, they now make up the oldest cohort of the workforce. This group was parented by prosperity, and shares a presumption of entitlement to their world view. The Boomer cohort has always been big enough to force the culture to adapt to them. For years they have dictated politics and culture by their sheer number in a market-driven economy, and policy to the degree they have had a coherent outlook.

Generation X

Comprises those between 33 and 48, at the time of the survey. This group’s formative experiences were framed by familial and financial insecurity. They grew up amidst rising rates of divorce and recession. Where the sexual revolution of the Boomers
brought free expression and experimentation, the threat of AIDS brought Xers fear and caution. 

Millennials

Defined as those between 21 and 32 in this study, they are much more like Boomers than Xers. They grew up as an affirmed generation, with a re-focus on the family, and are generally thought of as having high self-esteem and self-confidence. They are racially and ethnically diverse and tolerant of a variety of lifestyles. Information has always been virtually costless and universally available to them. 

My observations:

1. Millennials value marriage or life partnership far more than any other group, including Boomers. Perhaps due to a declining divorce rate as they came of age, they lack the cynicism of Gen X about relationships.

2. The exact same pattern among groups holds for the life goal of having children, with 65% of Millennials viewing it as essential or very important.

3. Millennials place a high priority of having a job that makes the world a better place. For an excellent essay on this sentiment, see Even Artichokes Have Doubts. 

Note: The piece was written by Marina Keegan, a young woman who was tragically killed over the weekend in a car accident on Cape Cod. She was 22, and had graduated from Yale just days ago. When she wrote the piece last fall challenging her college classmates to eschew finance and consulting for more valuable and meaningful work, the article was picked up by the New York Times, NPR and other media outlets. Keegan’s most recent (and heartbreaking) essay can be found here. Her parents have said they feel comforted by the fact that it has gone viral.

4. The Milennials also value leadership, wealth and prestige more than any other generation. Whether they’re optimistic or foolish, they intend to have it all. It will be particularly interesting to watch this generation balance work and family. 

  • Ramble

    Millennials value marriage or life partnership far more than any other group, including Boomers.

    The group that is at the age where you are most likely to get married is the most interested in it.

    In other news, 5 year olds are most interested in Dora the Explorer.

  • Ramble

    You will also notice that the group with the most money is the least concerned about it.

    Reminds me of that scene in The Aviator where Katherine Hepburns family declares that they are socialists and that they don’t care about money.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is how the question was worded:

      Different people have different goals in life. Please indicate how important each of the following is
      to your overall happiness.

      If anything, this should skew answers about marriage and children toward Boomers, not the reverse.

  • FeralEmployee

    As a supposed “millenial”, when I see these these statistics, I’m more inclined to throw in the term “instant gratification”, instead of optimism and motivation.

    Prestigious career? Artist, movie star… (don’t forget the aversion to STEM fields);
    Being wealthy? Money and plastic > relationships and talent;
    Leader in my community? Look at me, look at me, meeeee!

    The cynicism is still there, and a new one is becoming more prominent, that of the “failed icon”. Some pretty big names have gone down, and people feel they cannot look up at others no more. When people look up at movie stars, you think it’s because of their character or their status (money, looks, …)? Just the next generation hurled towards life, “armed” with the perception they’ll have it all because the commercials said so.

  • Rico

    “Millennials place a high priority of having a job that makes the world a better place.”

    Well, sure – everyone thinks they can change the world at 20. I don’t think that’s unique to the Millennials.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rico

      Well, sure – everyone thinks they can change the world at 20. I don’t think that’s unique to the Millennials.

      It’s true that the young are more idealistic, but the different generations do display different attitudes depending on the economic, political and social climates that were in place as they grew up. There’s been quite a bit of variation in that regard over the last three generations.

  • Brendan

    I tend to think that much of the skewing has to do with changing attitudes as people age. People tend to be much more idealistic and “world is my oyster” types in their 20s than they do later on when they are living differently in their 30s and 40s and more and more doors begin to close off. I certainly know many of my own gen X peers who were more idealistic about life when we were 23 than we are now in our mid 40s.

  • Ramble

    If anything, this should skew answers about marriage and children toward Boomers, not the reverse.

    I am not following what you are saying here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Most Boomers have children, so wouldn’t they be more likely to say that having children is essential or very important as a life goal? Same with having chosen marriage. If anything, they’d be prone to justify the choices they’d already made, no?

  • Erik L

    I agree with most of the above. Basically, it’s very difficult to interpret this without knowledge of how each older generation would have answered when they were in the younger brackets.

  • Escoffier

    The way this is framed is skewed. The underlying premise is that business/profits/commerce = bad whereas do-goody non-profit stuff = good. “Making a difference” is only the latter.

    Well, no, it’s not that simple. The person who starts a firm that creates 200 jobs has done more to “make a difference” than the foundation officer who simply gives away money that was earned by someone else through filthy commerce 50 or 100 years ago. This is to say nothing of the quality of the program receiving the money, which is often abysmal.

    Earning a living, contributing to the economy, forming and maintaining a stable family, raising good childern–all that is “making a difference” even if you never work a day in an NGO. The whole Davos hive mind, which defines elite discourse in the OECD, has corrupted our understanding of these basic facts, even though all the people who foot the bills at Davos are dirty capitalists.

    We cannot be a world or a nation full of foundation officers. Someone has to generate and distribute the necessities of life and they need to make a profit at it if they are going to bother to do it. In addition, there are the non-necessities that make life enjoyable for most of us (Glaucon’s relishes). Why we continue to delegitimize all this activity is beyond me. I mean, I know why but I think it’s stupid.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      As an MBA, former consultant and SAHM who lived on the proceeds of a finance career for many years, I’m not arguing that finance or consulting have no value to society, though I won’t pretend to claim the moral high ground that a doctor can, for example.

      I think that Marina Keegan makes a good point – there is something troubling when 25% of the Yale class goes racing off to McKinsey, Bain and Wall St. I know that Harvard University has voiced similar concerns about the choices its graduates make coming out of school.

      In any case, I do believe based on my exposure to Millennials that they are quite socially conscious. They’re the ones behind Occupy, for example – the first anti-establishment effort of its kind in over 40 years. They compete very aggressively for positions in Teach for America and other community organizations. I personally know 4 young people who have already taken committed steps to spending their careers in Africa. Before now, I haven’t met a single person who made that choice.

      Thanks to digital media and technology, the world is becoming a small place.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “Millennials value marriage or life partnership far more than any other group, including Boomers. Perhaps due to a declining divorce rate as they came of age, they lack the cynicism of Gen X about relationships.”

    I can agree to this. Those in my age group (Millennials) that I find to be cynical about relationships also came from divorced homes and Generation X parents. I rarely find someone with this mindset due to their own thinking, it’s often passed down.

    And those I run into who didn’t grow up in shaky households tend to be more open-minded about relationships and able to differentiate between one situation and gross generalizations about the opposite sex or relationships.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rone

      And those I run into who didn’t grow up in shaky households tend to be more open-minded about relationships and able to differentiate between one situation and gross generalizations about the opposite sex or relationships.

      Research bears this out. College kids of divorce are far more likely to state that they prefer hooking up because they believe relationships take too much work and usually end badly.

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    #4 particularly pertains to me. I’m interested to see how I am going to balance work and family, and sometimes I think I might not even want kids if it means I would have to give up my career and volunteerism. I already an pretty sure I want to wait until early to mid 30s to think about having children, but I guess I cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, there is just so much I want to do in my life that doesn’t and often even can’t involve children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ashley

      Your mention of volunteerism reminded me of something else. Here in Boston there are now volunteer activities for singles. I believe they schedule a big work day, e.g. a Saturday at Habitat for Humanity or a shelter, and then at the end of the day they go out for beers together. I think that would be a great way of meeting new people. I’m sure other cities have this as well.

  • Abbot

    They can “want” marriage and maybe many are out there trying to get it. But that does not mean they are viewed as qualified or desirable due to a myriad of factors. Some lessons are hard learned.

  • Abbot

    “College kids of divorce are far more likely to state that they prefer hooking up ”

    And those who can hook up more easily will do it more. Best to pass them up when shopping for a spouse.

  • Escoffier

    Well, sue, given where I grew up and went to school I am cynical about “social conciousness.” I mean, OWS is basically an incoherent rabble. Teach for America is great but two things one could say about that: 1) it is EXTREMELY prestigious so the idea that these kids are really giving anything up or making a sacrifice is dubious. I mean I know it can be rough but there is a huge pot of gold at the other end and the term is not that long. TFA is basically the McKinsey of non-profits. 2) their results are mixed at best and when you start measuring for scalability and sustainability, it’s far from clear that they do any long term good.

    HYPS are extremely disingenous on this topic, BTW. yes, they do a lot of hand-wringing about how they don’t want all their grads to go to hedge funds, etc. But they also know that both their brand and their endowments depend on their grads controlling the commanding heights of the culture and economy. They are pretty happy with the mix as it is. The hand-wringing is for show. They highlight the do-goody stuff to deflect attention from the fact that all the evil banks despised by their facultly and grad students are in fact run by their former undergrads.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      TFA is very prestigious, but part of that is how selective they are. I realize that’s a chicken or egg question, but my daughter worked for them as an undergrad, and they would rather have a school yield zero recruits than take someone with less than a 3.6 and stellar leadership credentials. The circular file is where 90% of the apps go regardless of need. So I think they masterfully created that prestige by taking only very strong graduates from the start.

      Good point about the hand wringing of prestigious institutions. They want a mix, though, for PR purposes. They don’t want all the most talented grads heading for finance.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I have read elsewhere that Gen X is actually quite stable once married (low divorce rate) in part because they were the generation most racked by divorce among their parents. Their marriage rates are not as high as the prior generation but their divorce rate is a fraction.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, I have read elsewhere that Gen X is actually quite stable once married (low divorce rate) in part because they were the generation most racked by divorce among their parents. Their marriage rates are not as high as the prior generation but their divorce rate is a fraction.

      That doesn’t surprise me, actually. With a greater awareness of the pitfalls, they would be better prepared to avoid them.

  • Brendan

    HYPS are extremely disingenous on this topic, BTW. yes, they do a lot of hand-wringing about how they don’t want all their grads to go to hedge funds, etc. But they also know that both their brand and their endowments depend on their grads controlling the commanding heights of the culture and economy. They are pretty happy with the mix as it is. The hand-wringing is for show. They highlight the do-goody stuff to deflect attention from the fact that all the evil banks despised by their facultly and grad students are in fact run by their former undergrads.

    This has been my experience as well. This is the public hand-wringing and the stuff of commencement speeches. In reality, they want a goodly chunk of their alums being docs, lawyers, execs, bankers, mgmt consultants, high-end entrepreneurs and the like — they want the alumni financial contributions, on the one hand, and the actual cachet and soft power that comes from their alumni being in positions of economic and, to some degree, social and political power. Ideally, they want both from their alumni, but I don’t think anyone at those schools really cares that 25% of the class ends up at elite investment banks and consulting firms — that leaves 75% of the class doing other things, which is a mix.

  • Escoffier

    BTW, a figure that sticks out for me from Liar’s Poker (1989) was that 40% of the Yale (?) class of 1986 applied to just one I-bank (First Boston).

    So, not only is this nothing new, you could say things have been quite a bit worse.

  • Cooper

    @SW #17

    Not really, because they have already accomplished those things.

    How could having children still be a very important life goal of someone 50-65?
    Surely the ones who haven’t married (or had children) would put “getting married” (or “having children”) at a higher importance than someone who has already done so.

    Like Erik L mentioned, it’s hard to tell without knowing how the older generations would have responded in when they were within the Joyner brackets.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      How could having children still be a very important life goal of someone 50-65?

      See above, they were asked how important this life goal is to their overall happiness. So a woman my age, with two children, would say “essential.” Because of course it is.

  • Jon

    I think the college students and millennials are both optimistic and a little naive. That’s a natural part of being young, so I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with it.

    Once they get a little more life experience, I’m sure the real world will beat that out of them.

    Look at the hippies for example. Weren’t they all about smoking pot and saving the world? Then they grew up, cut their hair, put on ties and went to work.

    Now the ex-hippie boomers’ biggest concern is having enough money to fund a comfortable retirement.

    Of course, that interpretation may just be the result of viewing the world through my cynical gen-x filter… :)

  • Joe

    I really recommend the book Generations by Howe and Strauss for anyone who’s interested in this.

    Those responses bring up a couple of key questions: is this really about 4 unique age-groups and their outlooks, or is this more like a (mythical) average person going through normal life stages, from youth to (ahem) old age?

    It really could be both, with those responses skewed a bit by history undulating underneath it all, affecting how “the average person” sees things.

    I’m also confused by the choice of questions. They’re obviously questions that were important to Marina Keegan, but somebody else would have chosen a different set, surely. The ones shown her, are mostly of interest to the young.Add in a question about health care and that graph would stand out.

    So that makes me wonder if anything there really tells us “What Workers Want in 2010″ (which was, after all, the title of the survey).

  • Escoffier

    Susan, that’s the point. That’s Wendy Kopp’s marketing genius. She sells TFA as “sacrifice” when in fact getting accepted by TFA is as much a career-maker as getting a job at Goldman or McKinsey. Selectivity is the key to that. Just as selectivity is the key to Princeton’s prestige.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Wendy Kopp certainly is a marketing genius. BTW, they also are very, very hard on accepted students who decline the offer. It happens a lot, because kids applying to law and medical schools often apply to TFA. They essentially accuse those kids of treason and greed. I know one young woman who was accepted to medical school and TFA applied strong pressure to get her to defer for two years. When she explained that she hoped to have children, and that would make her over 30 at the least, they told her that perhaps she was focusing on the wrong children. !!!!!????? It’s almost cultish.

  • Escoffier

    Re: Hippies, not quite.

    This is to distinguish hippies from the New Left, the other ’60s countercultural archetype. They have tended to blend together in the popular imagination in the years since but they are in fact quite distinct.

    The hippies were first and foremost hedonistic and secondarily a pseudo-religious movement. They tried to make the hedonism spiritual and therefore respectable but that flamed out because of its incoherence and because of the fact that only a small minority were really in it for the spiritualism. Most were in it for the sex, drugs and the fact that they didn’t have to work.

    The hippies were not about saving the world. When they grew up–those that did in fact grow up–they did tend to turn to “socially concious” productive enterprises. Much of what they did in creating the organic food movement, e.g., has been very valuable if you ask me. I would say that very few of the true hippies ever put on ties. Basically, they either died young (this happened a lot but it’s mostly been crammed down the memory hole), remained wastrels on the dole forever (go visit certain NorCal towns if you doubt this) or started working in some kind of business that they could convince themselves was somehow better than ordinary commerce.

    The New Left was truly trying to change the world. Many of them are now in the universities.

  • Ramble

    I already an pretty sure I want to wait until early to mid 30s to think about having children, but I guess I cross that bridge when I get to it.

    Ashley, please remember that each year after a girl turns 26, the likelihood that she will give birth to a healthy child goes down. Unfortunately, this si something that many girls rarely take into serious consideration.

  • Escoffier

    I know that, biologically, this is true. And yet there are so many exceptions. I don’t think there is one mother at my kid’s school who gave birth to a child before turning 30. From the look of them, most were well past that and some were over 40.

  • Ramble

    Most Boomers have children, so wouldn’t they be more likely to say that having children is essential or very important as a life goal? Same with having chosen marriage. If anything, they’d be prone to justify the choices they’d already made, no?

    Look, I am not telling you what people actually do believe or what they should believe. What I am saying is this:

    According to this poll, we see,
    – People in their 20’s are most concerned about marriage.
    – People in their 20’s are most concerned about children.
    – The youngest cohort is also the most idealistic.
    – Those with the least money are the most concerned about it.
    – Those with the most money are the least concerned about it (Boomers were especially financially successful).

    I am not saying that one generation is no more idealistic than another. But, that this survey was not particularly illuminating.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, wow, that is wierd. I really think that some of the things done/said in Kopp’s name she would be a bit unnerved by. I mean, she has four kids herself!

  • Ramble

    Susan, where was you daughter placed?

    I knew one girl who taught for TFA in Louisiana and absolutely hated it. She said it was like a war zone.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/teach-for-america-chews-up-spits-out-another-ethni,1293/

    “But listen, no one can tell you that you can’t make a difference. It’s something you have to figure out for yourself.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, where was you daughter placed?

      She was one of the ones who committed treason. :-/

      I have also heard very mixed stories about the experience. My son’s gf did it in Philadelphia, and it was a very challenging two years. She taught remedial algebra, and the age in her classes spanned five years. There were 4 or 5 pregnant girls in her class both years. She was threatened on several occasions and had to call the police once.

      At the end of her first year, she gave 11 Fs. The principal called her in and told her that would not do. She had to pass those kids. She refused. He pressured her further, and she said, “I work for TFA and you cannot make me change those grades.” He changed them and the kids were pushed along.

      She is the sweetest, smartest kid, but that job aged her and made her cynical.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Unfortunately, this si something that many girls rarely take into serious consideration.

    I agree the want children is never treated as a goal the same way “want to be a lawyer” is, so is like a vague desire but no information is gathered as how to achieve this but assumed that kids are a missing pill away. Is the same issue with Kate Bolick at 39 “finding herself single” which makes no sense if she never actually actively worked to get married, YMMV.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    My $.02: many Millennials have not been fully indoctrinated (yet) into the magical world of trade-offs. To get the real market color, you may need a survey that imposes rather stark, unpleasant choices—“successful power career or stable marriage—which do you want?”…”partner with hot looks or partner with kind personality—choose one”…”fame and adventure or family values—which do you select”…and so on.

    Given no opportunity costs, they’ll just sign up for everything and say they want it all, which for many/most will be basically akin to saying “I’m a ticking time bomb…in ten years I will be taking horse tranquilizers to deal with my shattered life expectations.”

    This is probably partially a function of being young and optimistic, and partially a function of legit increases in narcissistic attention-whoring and a “self-confidence bubble”.

  • Escoffier

    To elaborate on what I said in #35, girls who grow up in (say) Brookline or the little suburb where I live or in most of UMC blue America–Their own mother will be over 30 and all their friends will have mothers well over 30 and sometimes over 40. They will see this as normal. What will seem odd is a 25 y/o mom because in these places, such moms basically do not exist.

    That plus parental pressure to go to college and then excell at some career combines to make this girls think that it’s normal to wait until at least 30 to even think about having kids. UMC parents want to brag that their daughter went to Yale and then to Wharton or Duke Law, clerked for the 1oth Circuit, is a Deputy Assistant to the President or SVP in Tokyo at age 28. They really don’t want to have to say to their friends, “Oh Jenny is home with her two babies.” Not until Jenny is at least 35, has the resume behind her, and a man making a boatload of cash.

    So, biologically, their clock may be ticking. But all they see is mother after mother, in their own generation and in the generation before theirs, who started their families in their mid-30s. It worked out for all of them so why not for her?

    There is no countervailing message even being voiced, much less getting through.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      That mirrors my own experience. As a 35 yo whose kid was starting kindergarten, I was probably in the younger half of the moms group. I remember one mom who seemed like such a baby, none of us could get over it. She was 26 or so, and we all thought she was just ridiculously young to be there. By the way, she and her husband were high school sweethearts and did not go to college. She was the only young one out of about 40 moms in two classes.

      You’re right about the expectations of boomer parents – as the survey says, we’re a generation that is used to having our say and our way. I wonder how things will shift once we’ve passed on.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, one other point, the Ivies hate more than anything an acceptee who turns them down. That’s bad for the brand. That’s also what early admission is all about, to cut down that %. They want you to commit first: You say yes to us, and if we say yes to you, you must come here. Their magic number is not just their acceptance rate but their matriculation rate.

    So TFA is no doubt acting on the same principle. Being admitted and then doing something else is like turning down a marriage proposal. The suitor gets mighty pissed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So TFA is no doubt acting on the same principle. Being admitted and then doing something else is like turning down a marriage proposal. The suitor gets mighty pissed.

      No doubt. I’ve seen this principle at work in a couple of places. Once, when our daughter applied to private school from 6th grade, they called and asked if we would guarantee enrollment if they let her in. They had already learned where else she’d applied. I couldn’t believe it – for an 11 year old! (We did not guarantee, they wait listed and then accepted her. Risk to the yield rate was eliminated.)

      Also, Harvard has something they call the Z list. If you’re connected and they have to let you in, but you don’t have the chops, you get put on the Z list. This comes with a letter inviting you to matriculate after a gap year. These admits are not counted in the stats for either matriculating class. Talk about whoring. Six middling kids in my son’s high school were put on that list. Only one turned them down and went to NYU instead.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I once asked my husband if he were forced to choose between a girl who was a little chubby and had a pretty face vs. a girl who had a great body and an ugly face, which would he choose? He struggled with the answer, but ultimately chose the pretty face and a little overweight.

    It makes more evolutionary sense in my opinion. An average height female who could lose 25lbs does not suffer a major blow to her fertility, and the pretty face indicates higher innate estrogen levels. Most cultures try to fatten girls up with meat, fish and eggs as part of ancient and traditional fertility rituals.

    But there is definitely an upper limit to the weight thing. I think that limit is generally when the face becomes affected by being too fat.

  • Ramble

    What will seem odd is a 25 y/o mom because in these places, such moms basically do not exist.

    If a girl did want to have her first child while she is at her peak of health and fertility, she would likely never be able to afford to live in Brookline.

    Few in Brookline, or Cambridge, or much of anywhere else in the upper-class world could give two shits about this, of course.

    That plus parental pressure to go to college and then excell at some career combines to make this girls think that it’s normal to wait until at least 30 to even think about having kids.

    Actually, I don’t agree so much about the Upper Middle Class beating into their daughters brains about some amazing career. Maybe for the Upper Class, but not so much for the UMC. But, I can only speak for what I saw.

    Good Career? Stable Career? Nice Job? Ability to meet and socialize with “good” people? Yes, absolutely.

    Becoming a Brain Surgeon and not being able to have children before 35…I did not see that.

    “Oh Jenny is home with her two babies.” Not until Jenny is at least 35

    Again, I am not seeing that. At least for the UMC (and maybe not for the UC), those mothers start pestering their daughters about marriage by their late 20’s.

  • Ramble

    I once asked my husband if he were forced to choose between a girl who was a little chubby and had a pretty face vs. a girl who had a great body and an ugly face, which would he choose?

    Whoa, why so unequivocal?

    How about, 25 lbs overweight versus a slightly below average face?

    Hope, I hope that your husband clarified in his answer that, “Well, Honey, the fatter girl can simply lay off the bagels”.

  • Escoffier

    pestering for marriage by late 20s, sure, but that means kids no earlier than early 30s. It just does not happen here (or on the other coast). In part, as you note, because all the places these people want to live are sooooo expensive.

  • Brendan

    irls who grow up in (say) Brookline or the little suburb where I live or in most of UMC blue America–Their own mother will be over 30 and all their friends will have mothers well over 30 and sometimes over 40. They will see this as normal. What will seem odd is a 25 y/o mom because in these places, such moms basically do not exist.

    Right. My son’s mother was 27 when he was born, and that raised a LOT of eyebrows, even though it was just after she had graduated from law school. Almost all the other moms in the mom groups and so on were at least 30 and many 35+. It’s the new normal for the UMCs.

    That plus parental pressure to go to college and then excell at some career combines to make this girls think that it’s normal to wait until at least 30 to even think about having kids. UMC parents want to brag that their daughter went to Yale and then to Wharton or Duke Law, clerked for the 1oth Circuit, is a Deputy Assistant to the President or SVP in Tokyo at age 28. They really don’t want to have to say to their friends, “Oh Jenny is home with her two babies.” Not until Jenny is at least 35, has the resume behind her, and a man making a boatload of cash.

    True, but I also wonder if it isn’t also, in part, the new MRS degree? In other words, the assortative mating in the UMC is now working in two ways, and guys also want to marry women with resumes, even if such women eventually become SAHMs (not uncommon with highly-educated UMC couples I know). So in order to get the MRS degree, a woman needs not only the actual degree and opportunity to meet in college or grad school, but the resume and track record after that as well to make for a truly optimal assortative match. I suspect that is is quite a bit of what is going on as well, despite the sense in the manosphere that men are not interested in this. Perhaps most men are not, but in highly-educated professional UMC, a woman’s resume is important in assortative mating, and not just her degree.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan

      So in order to get the MRS degree, a woman needs not only the actual degree and opportunity to meet in college or grad school, but the resume and track record after that as well to make for a truly optimal assortative match. I suspect that is is quite a bit of what is going on as well, despite the sense in the manosphere that men are not interested in this. Perhaps most men are not, but in highly-educated professional UMC, a woman’s resume is important in assortative mating, and not just her degree.

      Agreed, the UMC is the last holdout for assortative mating. Most of the parents I’ve known through the years of raising kids have had the same level of education. And that holds true for grad school as well. Lots of couples are both lawyers, both physicians, both shrinks, etc. And of course it’s true in my case as well. No doubt most of us met our spouses in school. At 27, I had no qualms about committing, the timing seemed perfect. I wouldn’t have settled down any earlier than that, I don’t think.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I did mean below average face, not hideously deformed or anything. Anyway, he still had to think about it, and made it clear he did not like the question. In his answer he said he’d rather have good body and good face. But he is also a guy who prefers girls on the more petite side. There are men who like women with bigger builds and more meat on their bones.

    And yeah, he did take into consideration that the chubby girl can lose weight.

  • Escoffier

    Brendan, absolutely.

    But it’s not just the assortive mating social cue for the male that’s important. It’s also important for the woman’s psyche. She gets to say (to herself and her peers) “I’m not just a mom, I’m accomplished, I have exceeded my mother and grandmother’s generations and also I have not squandered what the womens movement made possible for me. I am not defined by a man. I am SOMEBODY!!!” This latter point is, I believe, more important than the former. That is, it’s more important to her, to what motivates her.

  • Ramble

    She was threatened on several occasions and had to call the police once.

    At the end of her first year, she gave 11 Fs. The principal called her in and told her that would not do. She had to pass those kids. She refused. He pressured her further, and she said, “I work for TFA and you cannot make me change those grades.” He changed them and the kids were pushed along.

    She is the sweetest, smartest kid, but that job aged her and made her cynical.

    This completely jibes with what my friend went through.

    Some day we will need to trade stories on that most hallowed of institutions, The Peace Corps.

  • Brendan

    But it’s not just the assortive mating social cue for the male that’s important. It’s also important for the woman’s psyche. She gets to say (to herself and her peers) “I’m not just a mom, I’m accomplished, I have exceeded my mother and grandmother’s generations and also I have not squandered what the womens movement made possible for me. I am not defined by a man. I am SOMEBODY!!!” This latter point is, I believe, more important than the former. That is, it’s more important to her, to what motivates her.

    I think it’s a mixture of both, but I’d agree that this is also an important factor, especially for the ones who become SAHMs later (“well I clerked for Justice Souter and then worked at Cravath for six years before I decided I wanted to spend more time with my kids. :) I’m just grateful I had the choice *cue smile at law partner husband*”). It’s a mix of both, I think, really, but certainly the voiced motivation is as you suggest (and it’s part of the internal one as well, given the way women socialize with each other and how important that is).

  • Ramble

    But he is also a guy who prefers girls on the more petite side. There are men who like women with bigger builds and more meat on their bones.

    Well, petite or more meat, very few guys like girls who look sickly…though Susan gave at least one example of a guy who desired that.

  • Ramble

    …pestering for marriage by late 20s, sure, but that means kids no earlier than early 30s. It just does not happen here (or on the other coast).

    Well, the pestering begins because the mothers want to make sure that it get’s done…and soon.

    I think that most of those mothers would be happiest with their daughter starting the baby making by her late 20’s.

    And, for the East Coast, I grew up in a UMC neighborhood in the wealthiest state in America within the largest metropolitan area in North America.

  • Escoffier

    Also, don’t forget that she is competing with other women. At a certain age (by “certain” read “later”) she gets points for being able to stay home. She “wins” because her husband can afford to give up her income (he’s not a loser) and she can truly raise her children herself (rather than farm it out, out of necessity).

    But at a younger age, she “wins” by getting the elite degree, the elite job (“elite” for a girl job is not necessarily about money), the swank apartment in the short list of approved cities, the wardrobe, the lifestyle, etc. If she skips this step or abandons it too early for step two, she “loses.”

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Wow Susan, that’s such a different experience from my husband’s teaching experience in Africa. But he was in the Peace Corps in Ghana, which is one of the African nations that does try to put emphasis on education. He taught high school kids who worked hard, cleaned the classroom, carried water buckets for him, called him “sir,” and were generally polite.

    I never did TFA even though I went to some recruitment sessions. I wanted to get a job ASAP, which turned out to be a good move because I got two years of work experience in before the economy tanked big time. I wasn’t quite as idealistic of a do-gooder because I came from a financially poor background raised by a crazy single-mother. I went to school with inner city kids and then later private school kids, so I saw the spectrum.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      My guess is that TFA and the Peace Corps are very, very different experiences. I don’t know a kid who did the Peace Corps, though my father did a stint at the age of 64.

  • Brendan

    Also, don’t forget that she is competing with other women. At a certain age (by “certain” read “later”) she gets points for being able to stay home. She “wins” because her husband can afford to give up her income (he’s not a loser) and she can truly raise her children herself (rather than farm it out, out of necessity).

    But at a younger age, she “wins” by getting the elite degree, the elite job (“elite” for a girl job is not necessarily about money), the swank apartment in the short list of approved cities, the wardrobe, the lifestyle, etc. If she skips this step or abandons it too early for step two, she “loses.”

    I agree. The status signaling differs at different ages. It’s quite an elaborately choreographed dance at this point, really.

  • Brendan

    Agreed, the UMC is the last holdout for assortative mating. Most of the parents I’ve known through the years of raising kids have had the same level of education. And that holds true for grad school as well. Lots of couples are both lawyers, both physicians, both shrinks, etc. And of course it’s true in my case as well.

    Definitely this is the norm in the UMC. There are very, very few cases of “marrying out” of the professional social class in the UMC really, for men and women alike. There are cases of women lawyers marrying photographers or artists or what have you as well, but these are not that common, and the artiste is generally also highly educated, if not high earning — some places have more of a cache for this kind 0f thing (Manhattan) than others (DC).

  • Ramble

    Hope, for what it is worth, the people I know that did the Peace Corp, did not come away scarred by it…they just did not respect it all that much either.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.

    Lower living expenses probably factor into this. I know many people who start families in their 20s, bought a comfortable house with at least 3 bedrooms, and a vehicle that can support multiple carseats. None of them are doctors, lawyers or super wealthy.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “She was 26 or so, and we all thought she was just ridiculously young to be there. By the way, she and her husband were high school sweethearts and did not go to college. She was the only young one out of about 40 moms in two classes.”

    Holy crap! You and I live on different planets! My ex-wife was 20 when she had her first child (my step-daughter), and she was 25 when she had my son. My current SO was 21 when she had her first child, and about 23 with her second. My mother was 20 when I was born, and her mother (my grandmother) was 21 when my mother was born. I’ve already said that I know of many single mothers in my area, and I’d wager that 75% of them are in their mid to late 20’s, and I bet there are plenty younger that I don’t see because their kids are not school age yet.

    I guess this explains why we really don’t see things the same way often. Where I’m at, the only 30-something “new” mothers are probably on their second marriage just getting around to having kids, or having a second bunch for the “new” husband. The rest of us all started in our early to mid 20’s at the latest.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Interestingly, I think there was less variance a generation or two ago. My own mother was 22 when she had me, and that was typical mom age when I was growing up. It was made pretty clear to me as I was raised that I had the opportunity to go a lot further and shouldn’t waste it. My parents were the first in their families to go to college, but they were determined to see the next generation advance beyond that.

  • Ted D

    And as far as it goes, my mate and I ARE the “old” parents when we go to school events…

  • Brendan

    The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.

    Lower living expenses probably factor into this. I know many people who start families in their 20s, bought a comfortable house with at least 3 bedrooms, and a vehicle that can support multiple carseats. None of them are doctors, lawyers or super wealthy.

    It’s also self-selecting, because the folks from the midwest and mountain west and so on who are “gunning” for higher assortative mating opportunities in, as Escoffier says, “approved cities” (read: coastal cities), tend to migrate away from the midwest and mountain west in favor of the coasts. I met quite a few such people both in California and here on the East Coast as well — people who migrated here after their education (or perhaps as a part of getting it).

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I wonder how things will shift once we’ve passed on.

    Hopefully, much lower payroll taxes for the rest of us : )

    Too bad about Keegan. I have a friend at Yale’s business school who gave me her backstory. Really bright girl.

    It’s good to see my generation (late millennial, early Gen X) has a more realistic view financial well-being. “Prestigous career” and “being wealthy” seem to be priorities for upper-class young people, but no one I know personally.

  • GudEnuf

    Any job can be a job that “makes a difference”. Just take a portion of income you make from that job, and donate it to an efficient charity.

    http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/make-money.html

    You can save a life for less than $1000.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      One of my favorite ways to give is micro lending. You can support a family by giving a woman a sewing machine.

  • Tom.s

    I’ve noticed on OkCupid, almost all the female 22/23 year olds on there are college educated and have big ambitions and passions for their career.

    Dating someone with a similar education and passion would be nice, but it scares me to think that ‘the numbers’ skew to mostly wannabe “supermoms”.

    I really don’t want that kind of life. I like to stay busy, but I don’t like daily stress. Having a supermom wife would definitely cause that.

    Plus, the logistical challenges of staying with someone with another demanding career intimidates me. I feel like a couple can only have one “real” career and the other has to be flexible with it.

    This is messed up though, because lots of great/desirable women have big ambitions and dreams in their careers.

  • Abbot

    “I feel like a couple can only have one “real” career and the other has to be flexible with it.”

    Why wouldn’t you feel that way? as a human male

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “Why wouldn’t you feel that way? as a human male”

    Ain’t nothing to do with male, just to do with reality. Career implies moving at one point. My grandfather moved all over the place before he settled down in the Chicago area, and he was offered a much higher position in Tennesse, but eventually he just said fuck it.

    Would have been hard for Grandma to have a career when Grandpa was moving around like that all the time.

    Speaking as a Millennial who had a long stint of unemployment post-grad: Fuck the ideals, give me money.

    Of course, I fight health insurance companies, so I get both.

  • Sassy6519

    I am one of those Millennial women who is pursuing her dream career, but I also never want to have children.

    Since I don’t want kids, there is really no reason for me to not pursue my career.

    I really don’t want that kind of life. I like to stay busy, but I don’t like daily stress. Having a supermom wife would definitely cause that.

    Plus, the logistical challenges of staying with someone with another demanding career intimidates me. I feel like a couple can only have one “real” career and the other has to be flexible with it.

    It’s definitely about compromise.

    The key, for you and your desires, is to find a woman who is comfortable and happy with sacrificing her career. There are indeed women like that out there. You just have to find one.

  • Tom.s

    I’m pretty sure my ex would have have given up her career (engineering) for me. I didn’t let her though. It would have been stupid at the time.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted:”Holy crap! You and I live on different planets!”

    Sue’s crowd isn’t UMC by any stretch of the imagination. Elites. You haven’t noticed?

  • Kirk

    I received an email from TFA last year urging me to attend one of their recruitment sessions. However, I had to decline due to the fact that I wasn’t going to graduate until the preceding fall.
    Has anyone here worked with TFA? If so, what was it like?
    Do they discretely discriminate against individuals with autism disorders like most organizations?

  • Kirk

    *Following fall, not preceding.

  • Abbot

    Does planning to do well include not permitting this pathetic situation to continue? –

    “In sum, thanks to feminism, very many women slept with too many men for their own happiness; postponed marriage too long to find the right man to marry; are having hired hands do much of the raising of their children; and find they are dating boy-men because manly men are so rare.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/281795/four-legacies-feminism-dennis-prager

    .

  • Ted D

    OTC – “Sue’s crowd isn’t UMC by any stretch of the imagination. Elites. You haven’t noticed?”

    Well yes. But I guess I never really gave it much thought.

    So really, how many people are we talking about up there? I mean, it seems to me there are WAY more working class/lower class young women out here struggling WAY harder than any girl enrolled in Yale or Harvard. I’m not knocking on anyone, but good grief I actually thought the target audience for HUS was a bit more, diverse than this. I’m finding it a bit hard to be sympathetic for these girls this morning. I mean, if they have families that can afford THOSE kinds of schools, what exactly is it they have to complain about? Guys are assholes?! I’m going to bet that a ton of them are probably just as entitled as the young women, and many are probably spoiled brats of a sort. I’m watching 18 year old women getting pregnant around me, and for these ladies the big decisions is NOT career or children. Their a bit past that, and are now on to worrying about how they are going to raise a child with no real income, no education, and no one to help. (because of course they are getting pregnant to wanna be gangster thugs.) And no one is equipping these girls with the knowledge to better themselves. To keep from becoming a “baby mama”. To understand why they are attracted to thugs and “bad boys”, and it seems even about how to actually use birth control.

    And I’m not nearly in the worst parts of the city. Not by a long shot.

    So HUS is mostly here to help privileged young women find a husband? I’m not saying that isn’t a good thing, but the knowledge here could really be used by people that do not have an ivy league education… It clearly demonstrates to me that the educated and wealthy populations of the U.S. have very little clue about what is going on in the socioeconomic classes below them. If they ever want a real education, they will have to get out of that UMC bubble they live in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      So HUS is mostly here to help privileged young women find a husband? I’m not saying that isn’t a good thing, but the knowledge here could really be used by people that do not have an ivy league education… It clearly demonstrates to me that the educated and wealthy populations of the U.S. have very little clue about what is going on in the socioeconomic classes below them.

      Of course not! Please don’t confuse my own background with my Mission Statement. I’ve always been very open about my own bio. My parents grew up poor in NYC, were the first to go to college. My mother dropped out to get married after her junior year. I grew up solidly middle class. I went to a no-name college but did get my MBA from a good school, and married a fellow graduate.

      Despite OTC’s characterization I consider myself UMC. I am not wealthy, and am extremely relieved to be done paying for college. I do have a lovely home and I feel very fortunate.

      Finally, in Boston elitism can be intellectual or genealogical in addition to financial. I would describe my crowd as being intellectual, but neither WASPy nor rich. It’s not surprising with all the colleges here, and one of the best medical centers in the world.

  • Tom.s

    Ted, I would say the strategies would apply to any class.

    Also, dating strategies that Susan is offering are not offered in any courses during high school or college. They are either a product of your experience/intelligence, or what your friends/family have fostered in you.

    So regardless of class, we are born without the knowledge, and cannot attain it through purchase (like a college class).

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    She was one of the ones who committed treason. :-/

    I have also heard very mixed stories about the experience. My son’s gf did it in Philadelphia, and it was a very challenging two years. She taught remedial algebra, and the age in her classes spanned five years. There were 4 or 5 pregnant girls in her class both years. She was threatened on several occasions and had to call the police once.

    At the end of her first year, she gave 11 Fs. The principal called her in and told her that would not do. She had to pass those kids. She refused. He pressured her further, and she said, “I work for TFA and you cannot make me change those grades.” He changed them and the kids were pushed along.

    She is the sweetest, smartest kid, but that job aged her and made her cynical.

    I wonder how many applicants TFA takes who come from at least somewhat similar inner city lower to lower middle class backgrounds. I’ve heard similar horror stories, but the teacher is always the same; white, UMC to upper class, grew up in the suburbs and has an idealistic view of the world.

    Growing up lower middle class at best, in a big city, I can tell you that kids in inner city schools can smell that kind of upper crust background on you. Not to say that I would be able to do much better, as I have no idea, but I am certain I would be able to relate to the kids better which would most likely help a lot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Growing up lower middle class at best, in a big city, I can tell you that kids in inner city schools can smell that kind of upper crust background on you. Not to say that I would be able to do much better, as I have no idea, but I am certain I would be able to relate to the kids better which would most likely help a lot.

      I’m sure you’re correct. TFA’s perfect applicant is probably someone exactly like you. I will say, though, that my son’s gf did get very close to quite a few of her students, and has gone back to Philadelphia twice this year to visit them. Interestingly, she felt she had the most positive and lasting impact on the pregnant girls, who were receptive to her argument that they owed it to their babies to stay in school. (Most of them planned to have their own moms, around 30, provide childcare.)

      Also, I’m sorry to say it but there’s a lot of dead wood among teachers. In her high school, there were 5 or 6 teachers who spent the whole day in the break room, not teaching. I think they actually called it the rubber room. They were there because they had been deemed unfit to continue teaching, but union rules prevent firing them. So they collect full pay and play poker.

      There’s a reason TFA has been incredibly successful. Just having a teacher who’s smart and gives a shit helps.

  • Richard Aubrey

    I stuck around in college for a short time after I graduated in 1966. Temp medical deferment. Did civil rights in MS, and a volunteer program in a challenged neighborhood–it was run by campus sororities, so I figured they could use the help.
    Those were the days when everybody, but everybody, was going to save the world, except for the business school people, of course. For most of the world-savers, that meant cutting class on Friday afternoon and tossing the Frisbie to stick it to The Man. Or protest the war or something. Tom Lehrer had a nice song about The Folk Song Army which applied even to people who weren’t singing.
    I’ve been involved in volunteer stuff ever since, including the Army for which I volunteered.
    What I have learned is that about half of the stuff is for self-congratulations. Try talking to some of the folks about the actual results, and the opportunity costs.
    Some of this stuff is an excuse for ducking responsibility.
    Head Start, just as an example, is a favorite with a number of groups, despite study after study showing no lasting effect whatsoever. But it’s jobs for somebody.
    There’s nothing wrong with commerce, even operating with synthetic derivatives of bundled loser mortgages as long as you don’t break the law.
    Money has to move to do anybody any good and it has to be in the most effective places. Big shot finance folks are sort of like the stock guys in super market, except they get to set their own wages.
    Point is, you can do any of this stuff while raising a family, if you want to. If not…okay. But take your preening elsewhere. The rest of us are on to it.

  • Abbot

    Expect MUCH more of this sort of narrative to appear in the mainstream media:

    “Hello! I work for a major American women’s magazine and we are looking to speak with a woman JUST like you. We’d like to speak with you (anonymously) as part of a story about the number of sexual partners women have, and their positive and negative feelings about their number, to get a conversation going about this taboo subject. It would be completely anonymous. Please email me at [email address blocked] if you are interested. Thank you so much! –Jen”

    Taboo? Apparently not taboo anymore. How does the “planning well” crowd feel about that?

    http://www.dearcupid.org/question/would-you-forgive-a-woman-with-an-extremely.html
    .

  • Escoffier

    I don’t quite know where the line is between “elite” and UMC. I’m not sure it’s so easy to find. Part of the definition of the UMC is that they (we) are the water carriers and high-priced valets of the Davos overclass. So, both “classes” tend to mingle a lot. In fact, they can’t get by without one another. Their tastes, habits, manners, worldviews and looks are essentially the same. Often the only thing distinguishing them is money, which often turns on almost arbitrary decisions. E.g., John graduated from Harvard and joined Goldman and 15 years later is a decamillionaire whereas Jim graduated in the same class and went to work for the NYT, where 15 years later is earning in the (very) low 6 figures. Both those jobs are very prestigious, very hard to get, and there is a lot of competition for them. John will still be happy to associate with Jim, invite him to the Hamptons on weekends, and even have his son marry Jim’s daughter (so long as she looks the part and goes to the right schools). Then the grandkid eventually joins Goldman and he’s a centimillionaire …

    It’s not like Upstairs/Downstairs or a Trollope novel where the successful soliciter who is alpha in his circle may see the earl on business in his Westminster office but never get invited to dinner. In fact, the people who work for the Davos overclass and get paid 1/100th of what their bosses earn, are routinely invited to socialize as equals, or close.

  • Abbot

    “This book is an indispensable manual for the modern man whether he’s single, dating, engaged, or married. The author analyzes the effect female promiscuity is having on American society through a colorful mix of existential and psychological inquisition and humorous first-hand narrative. While ostensibly written for men, the author charts a course that draws readers of both genders into the fight. The reader is brought through a journey of self-awareness and enlightenment in recognizing the unequivocal existence of this social phenomenon. Through a maze of discovery inspired by very explicit and often hilarious incontestable accounts and logical reasoning, the reader is left with deep introspection about staying the course or advocating reform.”

    http://books.google.com/books/about/Your_Wife.html?id=TT6VZwEACAAJ

    .

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    For a person to talk about his goal to “save the world,” or such, isn’t necessarily a sign of genuine idealism. It’s very likely a sign of conformism, of going along with the attitudes that are expected in a particular circle.

    There’s a lot of mythology in the whole “public service” / “nonprofit” thing. A politician who devotes his life to the pursuit of power and adulation isn’t automatically a more moral individual than a businessperson who works to make a profit. Someone who writes papers about agricultural policy while working for a “nonprofit” isn’t morally superior to a farmer who actually grows food or to a trucker who transports it.

  • http://deleted Jason773

    Abbot,

    It was funny how that dearcupid link was full of ‘you go girl’ support from other females, using shaming language on the bf and calling him insecure. It wasn’t even as if her number was 10 or 20, it was 70! Unreal.

  • Abbot

    “It was funny how that dearcupid link was full of ‘you go girl’ support from other females, using shaming language on the bf and calling him insecure.”

    These flapping lip cheerleaders, promiscuous themselves obviously, conveniently never mention all those other men who benefit from the sexual service. They call the bf insecure as if he is somehow obligated to accommodate these excuses for women and yet make no mention of how “insecure” the other 22, 56 or 70 would be if it was going to be anything more than sex.

    Its an anonymous cock. Its an “insecure” man. Its the same man.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Please don’t confuse my own background with my Mission Statement. ”

    I’m not, but I’ve had this discussion a little bit with Escoffier before, and now more than ever I’m really seeing the disconnect here. I get that UMC women may be seeing a shortage of “good men”, but honestly that isn’t even close to the worst problems out there. I’m starting to feel a bit like I’m on the lower levels of a sinking ship, and the people on deck are still partying and having a good time. And the discussion about “starting a family after 30″ just really drove that home to me. My So went to college AFTER she had two children so she could earn more to try and keep up living in New Hampshire. My ex-wife never finished college, and I didn’t manage to get my degree until just a few years back because my employer paid for it. I know several people that are currently using Phoenix U. or other online colleges to finally get a degree as well, and these are folks in their 30’s and 40’s. I guess I’m saying that most of the people I know didn’t have much of a choice, or at least most of them didn’t see that they had many choices. And my daughter who is graduating from high school this week has several friends that are pregnant and under 21 years old. These aren’t stupid girls. They have been to my house, had dinner at my table, and told me about what they wanted to do with their lives. One of them was afraid to tell me she was pregnant, but she told her parents by text message…

    I’m frustrated because it all seems like such a waste to me. There are guys running around acting like “bad boys” (admittedly some of them probably ARE real bad boys) because it gets them laid, and all these young, smart girls fall for it over, and over, and over again. They are behaving in ways that make the ‘sphere at large look like it is correct, and it depresses me to no end, because it doesn’t have to be this way. I’ve looked these girls in the eyes, and saw that they wanted something better for themselves. And yet the next time they encountered some dude with “swagger”, they jumped into bed with him and got pregnant. Of course my first question was “did you use birth control?” One answered “we didn’t have any” (it took all I had to contain my outburst of THEN DO NOT HAVE SEX) and the other said the guy told her the condom broke. Of course, she didn’t actually SEE him even put one on, so my guess is he just lied to go bare back. That one was planning on going to nursing school, was a straight A student, and did great on her SATs. What. The. Hell…

    *deep breath*

    So yeah, I’ve been in a pretty shitty state of mind the past few weeks. I’m just disgusted by much of what I see going on around me, and I feel mostly powerless to do a damn thing about it. Yet I know many of the reasons why this is all happening, and it really is maddening some days. The problem is, the “fix” is not in any way politically correct, so instead everyone will just keep on drinking while the ship sinks. Eventually the deck will start to flood, and I have to wonder what the passengers up there will think when they realize they had plenty of time to do something about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted

      The problem is, the “fix” is not in any way politically correct, so instead everyone will just keep on drinking while the ship sinks. Eventually the deck will start to flood, and I have to wonder what the passengers up there will think when they realize they had plenty of time to do something about it.

      I get what you’re saying about socioeconomic status, which is a very real divider in the SMP. But I don’t see why one group should be more responsible for the solution than any other group. It’s about personal responsibility – why kick it up to the deck?

  • Ted D

    “They were there because they had been deemed unfit to continue teaching, but union rules prevent firing them. So they collect full pay and play poker.”

    And there is another reason many cities are in the shitter: crappy public school systems. I grew up surrounded by mill guys. My grandfather, my uncles, and some of my cousins worked in steel mills and of course they were all very pro-union. The problem is, unions are no longer any help for workers, they are just another political organization concerned with its own power and influence. I’ve gotten into “heated debates” with a few friends that have teachers in their family because I firmly believe the teachers union is AT LEAST 50% responsible for the crappy state of our public schools. Things like the example above prove to me that the union doesn’t care one bit about our children’s education, and at least some of the member teachers don’t either. If I was honest, I’d say the union is 75 to 85% responsible, and the rest should be shared by school administration and the federal government. I would put more blame on administration, but they are completely hampered by the teachers union from being able to actually manage their schools how they see fit, so to me it would be like blaming a fireman for not saving a burning house that someone doused with gas and lit with a match. At that point, the best they can do is keep the fire from spreading, and in many cases school administration can only do their best to keep collateral damage to a minimum. To be clear, collateral damage in that context is OUR CHILDREN not getting a proper education. I’ve gone to school board meetings in my district with a few other involved parents, and I’ve learned that it isn’t a lack of desire from the administration that often hampers improvement efforts, it is the union rules and regulations that have their hands tied.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      As someone who was very active in my kids’ schools, I will say that I am extremely anti Teachers Union. I support extensive standardized testing for that reason – we need to quantify what kids are learning to expose these abuses.

  • Escoffier

    “I’m on the lower levels of a sinking ship, and the people on deck are still partying and having a good time”

    That’s about right and it explains California very well.

    You might console yourself with the thought that we are going to drown too, just a little later you do. However, I am not sure that is true.

    To me this is THE biggest question about “the future” and the direction of society and I don’t know the answer. Can the UMC Bubble/Davos Archipeligo survive forever, no matter what happens everywhere else? Now, the Davos class does not recognize that there is a problem. To them, everything is fine, more of the same, please and thank you. I think that is obviously wrong however it is the ruling idea in the high-functioning part of the world today. Greece and the Spanish banks and the Euro aside, the Davos class thinks this is a technical problem that it can fix if only the damned voting/marching masses butt out of things they don’t understand. So, they deny there is even a problem below decks.

    We, however, know that is not true. Those in the UMC who are dimly aware of the problem, it seems to me, force themselves to believe that no matter what happens below decks, quality of life above decks can be maintained indefinitely. To change metaphors, they believe the UMC bubble is self-contained and impregnable.

    There are arguments to be made on both sides. I don’t know which are stronger.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “To change metaphors, they believe the UMC bubble is self-contained and impregnable.”

    That may be true, but it sure does suck for the majority of us on the lower levels. And frankly, it is a bit off-putting to think that most of those living in the UMC bubble really do feel like the rest of us are expendable. But, I can say with 100% assurance that there are FAR more people below deck than on deck, and those people having fun up there better hope the doors keeping people out of their party hold tight. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut (in the interests of full disclosure, I would like to point out again that I am not completely against a real revolution in this country at this point) I can’t help but wonder why the upper class isn’t concerned at all. Didn’t they all take history? Does no one remember the French revolution?

    I’ll say this. If it gets bad, REALLY bad in the U.S. of A. anyone with money better get out of town and hide. Because all of the poor slobs that have been stuck on the lower levels are going to rip the shit out of the upper deck the second they get access.

    To be honest, I feel a bit like a poser even talking about this, because I KNOW beyond all doubt that what *I* see everyday isn’t the worst. Obsidian has talked about the black community, and I know that the predominantly black areas around here are very rough places to live. The thing is, it is spreading to neighborhoods like mine and even beginning to encroach on more upscale areas. Sure, they can police their own just fine, but the masses accumulating at their doors are starting to climb the walls. And they don’t care about the rules at all.

    Sorry Susan. I’m going WAY off the subject, but I find that this all ties together to form one massively depressing picture. What UMC folks see as a lack of “good men” down here looks like a complete disaster of epic proportions. It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home. And the sad part is, if they were divorced I would actually feel better about it. But no, many of them are simply young women that got pregnant to another useless lump of flesh shaped like a man. If you really want to see a lack of “good men”, come visit sometime. I can probably pull together a group of young women from my area that can tell you a thing or two that will scare the hell out of you. It scares me…

  • Abbot

    “they’re still not interested in marriage, co-habitation, or in anything serious with women.”

    Ah, but look at the current slut venting series-

    Sluts walk – just google that
    Sluts vote – http://www.thisslutvotes.com/index.html
    Sluts marry! – expect that very soon

    “misleading them is kinda naughty”

    actually, it is the self serving, agenda driven and behaviorally insecure feminists who are misleading women

  • Escoffier

    Ted, it’s not that they think the lower orders are expendable. It’s that they think they (the UMC and above) have all the answers and if only their entire program could be implemented, it will all work out for everyone.

    However there is also a strain, not the dominant strain but a strong and growing strain, which holds that national borders are irrelvant. It doesn’t matter if “sound policy” hollows out or destroys the American working and middle classes so long as people somewhere else benefit. If one American LMC worker loses his job but ten peasants in China rise to the MC, that is a good trade. A lot of people in the Davos class believe this.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?

      It’s not, it’s just noise. I don’t know why Abbott thinks his comments are effective communication – I don’t have too many sluts among my readers. Richard is just another asshole, littering the thread with crap. We won’t be seeing him again.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Awesome. So now hair loss is caused by having a family.

    I love it when people are smart.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, I’m not sure how I feel about that, even though I was born in China and later became an American citizen. The kind of jobs being exported are not great jobs, and the profits mostly float to the top. But that’s more on the economics side, and I’m not going to delve too much into it.

    Socially speaking, Asia is also undergoing upheaval. The masses of poor in Asia are a lot more socially conservative than the upper class. The rural and impoverished are not promiscuous and work hard to try to make a better life. The new middle class and richer are the ones engaging in the same stuff they see in Western media.

    The dam holding some of this back is the fact that the elite in China are very controlling and try to censor the media, so as to ensure that the sexual debauchery doesn’t get out of control. There was a dating TV show that was very popular which got cancelled and replaced with cultural programming. In addition to censoring politics on the Internet, they firewall porn. It makes some sense given the traditions of “face” and “propriety.”

    But basically, low socioeconomic status does not always lead to promiscuity and high out-of-wedlock birth rates. There’s a large cultural component to sexual conservatism and its relationship with SES.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?

    Seriously, why can’t they take their drivel where it’s actually appreciated and encouraged? Why do they insist on saying the same shit over and over again here? Why?

    “Sluts” are bad. We get it.

    Move the fuck on.

  • Ted D

    Susan – you misunderstand my point. I’m not laying the blame at the upper deck, but let’s face it, the folks up there have much more ability and resources to do something now before it reaches them, yet most seem to be completely oblivious to what’s going on. Surely it isn’t anyone individual person’s fault, but as the saying goes “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (I might have butchered the actual quote…). UMC folks have the ability to actually influence and change/make policy. As you pointed out, they are lawyers, and doctors, and politicians. The average guy on the street has little to no chance to make any significant difference short of outright violence against other people, but folks with money and power have the ability to make sweeping changes with minimal effort.

    In terms of HUS, I see the knowledge shared here and in the ‘sphere that could really help some of these young women. (yes Richard, I know they are no angels. It doesn’t change the fact that they are in an environment that sets them up to fail at every turn…) most men in the ‘sphere are either indifferent to this plight or actively counsel other men to take advantage of women with “daddy issues” as if they are of no worth at all short of a place to drop a load. These guys are sending young men out to take advantage of the young girls I shared meals with, and it makes my blood boil. I’ve said before that I understand why a guy might go full PUA once discovering game because the attitude in the ‘sphere is one of selfishness and narcissism. But even here the subject of how things are in what I consider to be the “real world” are often glossed over or minimized because it doesn’t fit the mold. I’m trying to do something to help, but it’s an awful lot like pissing in the wind. The same girl that months ago asked my advice for after graduation is now signing up for public housing and assistance because her “baby daddy” sells his food stamps for .50 on the dollar so he can buy beer and fast food. Is it her fault? Absolutely, and she admits it. But the thing is, nobody ever told her to avoid these kinds of men. Nobody explained to her why she should avoid them, or why she would even find them attractive. She’s never seen what dominance looks like if it isn’t wrapped in sagging jeans and a hoodie, and she said she expects to “do it all herself” because “she can never depend on a man to live up to his responsibilities” or in other words, she doesn’t believe she will ever have access to men that aren’t douchebags.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      UMC folks have the ability to actually influence and change/make policy. As you pointed out, they are lawyers, and doctors, and politicians. The average guy on the street has little to no chance to make any significant difference short of outright violence against other people, but folks with money and power have the ability to make sweeping changes with minimal effort.

      As a practical matter, what policy changes would you suggest? Most of what we discuss here is not controlled by government or politicians. How can policy change the SMP? To the extent that I do have any influence, I attempt to use it for the greater good, but I am not alone. I know many highly educated people working for causes that are important to them, including teen motherhood.

      It seems to me that what you’re describing with that young woman is a massive breakdown of family. Why didn’t her own parents tell her what men to avoid? If she believes all men are douchebags, why get involved with one? I see weakness and irresponsibility here.

  • Travis

    Wow. Ted, that is the first thing I’ve really heard you say that I completely disagree with. You’ve forced me to agree with Richard, and for that, I resent you. I’m not one of those guys whose all about blaming the women, but come on! Seriously?

    “But the thing is, nobody ever told her to avoid these kinds of men. Nobody explained to her why she should avoid them, or why she would even find them attractive. She’s never seen what dominance looks like if it isn’t wrapped in sagging jeans and a hoodie, and she said she expects to “do it all herself” because “she can never depend on a man to live up to his responsibilities” or in other words, she doesn’t believe she will ever have access to men that aren’t douchebags.”

    Sorry, dude. But that sounds an awful lot like the woman who spilled coffee all over herself and then sued McDonalds because “nobody told her the coffee was going to be hot”. There are some things you just have to take responsibility for figuring out yourself. Nobody told me that women who cheat on their husbands or smoke meth are a bad choice for a mate, either. But somehow I figured it out on my own and managed to avoid sleeping with those women.
    I’m down on the douchebags too. But those girls are responsible for their choices, just like everyone else. And yes, I know you preceded your statement with “Is it her fault? Absolutely, and she admits it.”, but then you turned right around and completely excused her of all responsibility in the next sentence.
    The fact of the matter is, if she can’t figure out that those dudes are probably not the best boyfriend/ husband/ baby daddy material without someone to explain it to her, then she probably shouldn’t leave the house, because she’s too stupid to function in society without hurting herself.

  • Alias

    Hope:
    “I’m not a feminist, but I really don’t care to read about the kind of junk that men like Richard and Abbott put here. How is it even productive discussion?”
    ——–

    While painful to read, I think they’re providing a public service to the decent folks who are trying to navigate the SMP, by letting us look into their thought process. Personally, I save these comments as invaluable teaching material on who and what to avoid, but that’s just me.

  • Donkey

    @Susan
    “what policy changes would you suggest?… How can policy change the SMP? ”

    The problems are not simply in government policy, the problem is in a lack of objective morality. Public policy in democracies mainly reflect common ideas about justice, right and wrong. As such as the people’s ideas about the nature of right and wrong change governmental policy reflects that.

    Under the comstock laws contraception was banned in the United States. In 1930 the Lambeth conference of the Anglican communion voted to allow contracetption in extreme moral circumstances, and only if abstinence was impossible. In 1965 the Supreme Court discovered a penumbra of privacy (a penumbra comes from latin which means almost a shadow) and declared that there is no way contraception can be interfered with. In 1973 the same court cited their earlier discovery of these constitutional shadows to declare abortion the new state sacrament.

    Today the Federal government is threatening to shutter Catholic universities, who accept no public funds, if they don’t pay for abortions. Eric Holder is forcing Mississippi universities to open wide the doors of the female bathroom stalls to any d. in drag. Scotland is wasting billions revising all their medical documentation to remove all references about “fathers” in their state funded medical system, because it makes lesbians who know not their inseminators feel bad. Doctors and hospitals are being sued into bankruptcy because they wouldn’t perform a penile mutilation (sex change) surgery when hospitals nearby were eager. In New Mexico wedding photographers are being threatened with imprisonment if they do not pay thousands of dollars to homosexuals who want to use them as their photographers and the photographers refuse due to moral objections.

    Public policy? Ha. That is not where the battle lies. Public ethos is.

    The number one show for incredibly impressionable teenage girls is little short of forty minutes of hedonistic advocacy.

    Any civilization not founded in an objective external morality is destined for tyranny.

    Ethos > Ideas > Public Policy

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Donkey

      I agree with that. The most useful thing we can do is get ideas into the public sphere and initiate discussion and debate. If I didn’t think that could make a difference, I wouldn’t be engaged in the exercise of writing a blog. My background and financial security make it possible for me to undertake the exercise. I don’t kid myself though – I’ve had enough uncomfortable moments at dinner parties to know that I am never going to influence public policy around feminism and female privilege. That’s why my goal is to work at the margins. Unfortunately, the nature of the medium means that a whole segment of the population just isn’t going to hear what I have to say.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Meh, its not like Richard or Abbot are starting a flame war. Leave them be.

    @ Ted
    ” It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home. And the sad part is, if they were divorced I would actually feel better about it. But no, many of them are simply young women that got pregnant to another useless lump of flesh shaped like a man.”

    Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option. These are women that HAVE DEMONSTRATED their inability to correctly choose a mate not only for sex but for actual child bearing. The divorced ones have shown, ontop of that first part, that they really don’t give a damn about their husbands and feel no sense of commitment.

    Also, while she might be telling the truth at that time, I personally would never trust the affections of a woman with a kid. Knowing what I do now about how much women live in the world of their emotions, how much of that ‘affection’ she feels towards me would be tied up in the resources of time, energy, money, and emotional support that she’d be getting from me to help raise a child that IS NOT MINE? How long before she comes to see those things as something she deserves as a right, just like she obviously deserves the previous poor bastard’s child support/alimony, instead of something I’m freely giving her?

    No. Just no. A single mother is never ‘a quality date’ unless she’s a very, VERY rare exception to the rule. And she should have to work uphill to prove that to a man right from the start.

  • Escoffier

    Hope, you can substitute any other nation for China. The point is, to members of this class, they have no national loyalty or fellow feeling for other citizens at all. They think of themselves as a borderless overclass whose true loyalty and fellow-feeling are owed only to each other.

    Ted/Susan, it’s all well and good to say that we all bear responsibility for society’s direction, and true as far as it goes, but the UMC overwhelmingly controlls the commanding heights, sets the agenda and tone of the discourse, decides what can be discussed on what terms, and runs the actual political institutions.

  • Ramble

    Meh, its not like Richard or Abbot are starting a flame war. Leave them be.

    Leap, they may not be starting a war, but they are shitting in someone elses backyard.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “Meh, its not like Richard or Abbot are starting a flame war. Leave them be.”

    Correction. They WEREN’T starting a flame war until you didn’t leave them be.

    Ugh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Richard and Abbot are not cut from the same cloth. Abbot hates promiscuity and feminism but he likes women. He married one. Richard II (he’s more like the III) is an unpleasant, bitter, and angry male who loathes women.

      Abbot’s annoying but I wouldn’t kick him out of my house. I’d call the police on Richard.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy
    “I am one of those Millennial women who is pursuing her dream career, but I also never want to have children.

    Since I don’t want kids, there is really no reason for me to not pursue my career.”

    Fair enough. Honestly I’m doing much the same – though setting myself up to get a university position teaching theatre later in life. More stability for when I stop wanting to do this whole independent artist thing and, if I chose to and find a woman worth having kids with, ability to do that as well.

    Till then, I’ll keep love making a living as an artist. Make many of my own hours, work in coffee shops half the time, with my hands covered in paint or saw dust the rest of the time.

    Chasing a dream is good. Just make sure you run fast enough to catch it while still enjoying the journey on the way.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Hope
    “The midwest and mountain west are different from the coasts in this regard. Girls can get married to guys with advanced degrees even if they don’t have more than a bachelor’s, sometimes associate’s or less. It more depends on how the girl behaves, her looks, family background and general level of classiness. The competition on degrees and professions is a lot less intense.”

    Which is why I love Chicago and am glad I grew up in Golden, Colorado. There are more women here who are feminine and honest human beings instead of commercialized career grrrrrrrls.

    That being said, more is not majority. At least to this mid-20’s artist, I still have to wade through a ton of women to find those needles in haystacks. There’s just more needles out here and less fish that view me as a bicycle.

  • Ramble

    Susan forgot to mention that the only people allowed to shit on her backyard are men who’ve never had a girlfriend and are up to marry anything with a vagina, and the women who continue to perpetuate the myth of the fabled woman, the one who is so different from the majority of women, that the men won’t be raped by the divorce courts when she grows weary of him and wants to jump ship, LOL!

    Look, if you want to discuss things like Divorce Rape, go nuts…but try to pretend like you are in her living room and not lobbing shit-bombs from over the fence.

  • Alias

    Richard,
    If your comments are directed at mine, then state so directly.

    About young men not interested in marrying:
    If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.

    My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t. Is there something about this that offends you?

  • Abbot

    “About young men not interested in marrying:
    If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.

    My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t.”

    What is sad is the effort needed these days to be protected or feel protected.

    Is all this really worth it?:

    http://boldanddetermined.com/2012/01/21/pick-the-right-wife/

    .

  • Passer_By

    “@leap
    “Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option. ”

    I think you misread his point. He was not saying he was finding it hard to sympathize with men who can’t get a date (although he may well not sympathize with them for other reasons) or that men should seek out single moms. I think he was saying that he found it hard sympathize with privileged young women complaining about lack of dating options when the LMC and lower class women have it so much worse. Although he didn’t make that point all that well by pointing to LMC and lower class single moms, IMO.

    But, fundamentally, he seemed to be saying to Susan’s female audience here is mostly complaining about rich people’s problems.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But, fundamentally, he seemed to be saying to Susan’s female audience here is mostly complaining about rich people’s problems.

      I’ll be the first to admit they’re first world problems, but they’re definitely not rich people’s problems. The culture affects all young people, and I have grown tired of debating who has it worse. Could things be worse for college students? Yeah, they could be pregnant by a crack head. That doesn’t mean they’re lucky and thriving. Everyone is welcome here, but it makes sense that the audience here, and at every blog online in fact, is going to be read by people who get online and google search for answers to problems. If a young woman doesn’t do that, I have no way of helping her.

  • Alias

    Abbot:
    “What is sad is the effort needed these days to be protected or feel protected.

    Is all this really worth it?:”
    ———-

    ‘Splain pleez?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That one was planning on going to nursing school, was a straight A student, and did great on her SATs. What. The. Hell…

    Evolution Ted, Evolution we are racing against a system that has been working for million of years with the only purpose of past their genes. They will use all their hind-brain power to override the superior brain. Had you ever heard that concept of being intoxicated by someone’s presence? I’m not sure if there had been studies but I wouldn’t be surprised that being around a person of the opposite sex that is highly sexually attractive and the female of the pair is ovulating creates a similar effect in the brain that alcohol’s does. Just a theory but trust me I had seen a lot of really “smart” girls and boys doing the dumbest things and getting pregnant half the time. One of the sexual education talks we plan to cover for our kids “If you feel that you are going to die if you don’t have sex that very moment with an specific person you are very likely in ovulation stage, please run and get a cold shower: Really horny = baby” Hope kids get it.

    I can’t help but wonder why the upper class isn’t concerned at all. Didn’t they all take history? Does no one remember the French revolution?

    There is a lot of theories about this one had the theory that the crazy SMP is the modern equivalent of “bread and circus” so the people at the top don’t have to compete with the wealth with the people that might be climbing and they would be easy to manipulate too. Somedays I beleive is true.

    While painful to read, I think they’re providing a public service to the decent folks who are trying to navigate the SMP, by letting us look into their thought process. Personally, I save these comments as invaluable teaching material on who and what to avoid, but that’s just me.

    You know I love you Abbot but this is the most articulated that you had been on the forum. Is kind of nice. Most of the time you look like a crazy guy with a megaphone crying “The end is night…” ala Rorschach. Maybe you should write more like this one in a while in between “yells” it would make more people pay attention to what you link IMO.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oops mistake. I though I read Abbot, my bad. Ignore it.

  • Ted D

    Travis – “Sorry, dude. But that sounds an awful lot like the woman who spilled coffee all over herself and then sued McDonalds because “nobody told her the coffee was going to be hot”.”

    There certainly is a bit of that mixed in there, no doubt. And like I said, at least in one case the young women in question readily admits it was her own stupidity that got here where she is. Of course to me and most of us it looks like she should have “known” better. I said that EXACT thing when I first found out. The fact that she “should” have known but somehow didn’t is not only a failure on her part to be smarter, but a failure somewhere to instill in her some type of better value system. Which leads me to Susan’s question…

    “Why didn’t her own parents tell her what men to avoid? If she believes all men are douchebags, why get involved with one?”

    I can’t answer the second question, because I honestly didn’t even bother to ask her. To the first? Her parents are divorced, and she lived with her mother and step-father. Now to the best of my knowledge there was no type of abuse or neglect from a legal point, but the simple truth is they really weren’t good parents. She told them she was pregnant by text because she didn’t even respect them enough to say it to their face. And of course they immediately kicked her out of the house.

    “As a practical matter, what policy changes would you suggest? “

    OK, I’m going to go a bit into political stuff here, because despite this site being about the SMP, the core of the issues here come down to family values kinda stuff. I would like to see more policy that actually SUPPORTS family lifestyle, and much less that supports other models. (that is, supporting unwed single mothers through my tax dollars, and massive overhaul of the family court system.) I disagree that what we discuss here is not controlled by politics and government, because it is the federal government that provides the environment that promotes the dysfunction of the SMP. I really hate discussing this, because every single time I am made out to be some bible thumping southerner that wants to put women back in the kitchen. But the truth is, if we as a society do not place any value on solid families, and our government puts most of its efforts into doing things that work against the formation and maintenance of solid families, what we will see is the end of the family unit. In fact, what I’ve been saying all day is: that ship has sailed. Probably not for everyone of course, and some people (UMC for one) aren’t seeing it much at all, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening to large numbers of folks. These attitudes start at the top, from the people with power and influence, and then trickle down to the lower classes. To me there really isn’t much to be done at the bottom end except endure it. They can vote all they want, sign all the petitions they want, and if they can even participate a bit in the process. But all it takes to get something done at the top is for one or two key people to support it. It is the same old same repeated over and over in human history, I know. The people in power don’t care about the people under them until they show up with torches to burn down their castle.

    Donkey – Thank you! Your post said much of what I wanted to and couldn’t put into words.

    LoaB – “Man. You definitely HAVE NOT taken the red pill if you want other men to think that a single mother or divorced mother is a good option.”

    I said no such thing anywhere! I’m advocating that we figure out how to create less single mothers, not how to marry them up to beta men. I’m sorry if I gave you that impression somewhere, but that wasn’t my intent.

    Of course I say that having married a woman with a child once upon a time. I’m no longer with that woman, but I am personally thankful that the child is still a major part of my life. But seriously, I would not suggest to any man that it is a “good” idea, and even under the best of circumstances it is a very tough road to travel. For me personally, I see it as improving one child’s life, even if it cost me some of my own. I’m OK with that, because to me it is an investment in the legacy I leave behind. She isn’t my blood, but she was raised with my values and at least some of my ideals and after I’m gone my hope is that she will continue that legacy. But you know that I view the purpose of life far differently than you, so I don’t expect you to see it from my perspective. It was a sacrifice for sure, but one I made willingly (albeit on false information and pretenses) and she wouldn’t be the person she is today if I wasn’t a part of her life. Of all the things I have accomplished in my life, seeing her from a child into early adulthood (as if 18 is really an adult…) is by far one of my greatest achievements. And one that I am very proud of. Obviously it wasn’t a picture perfect childhood, and in the end she still comes from a “broken” home. But I still gave her a better shot, and I will continue to support her regardless of the fact that she carries none of my DNA.

    Escoffier – “Ted/Susan, it’s all well and good to say that we all bear responsibility for society’s direction, and true as far as it goes, but the UMC overwhelmingly controlls the commanding heights, sets the agenda and tone of the discourse, decides what can be discussed on what terms, and runs the actual political institutions.”

    This exactly.

  • Ted D

    Alias – “My position is that the majority of the population isn’t comprised of “decent” people. So, my wish is that those who are – protect themselves from being shafted by those who aren’t. Is there something about this that offends you?”

    You just summed up my view on “people” in general very well. I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking that most people generally suck.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Passer by
    Ahhhh…. gotcha. I guess I’ll wait and see if clarifies what he meant.

    As for Susan being upper class… Did that really shock anyone here? She’s always been honest with her background – so anyone reading her personal experience stories needs to keep that in mind. Which is why I don’t really respond to her personal stories of women who go to her for advice in person or are part of her women meeting things she had.

    Its not that I discredit their experience. It’s that, even after having lived in Boston for a year during grad school, their world and experience in the SMV is so unlike mine as a 26 year old male working in theatre that it would be naive, at best, for me to try and relate. Plus I hated all of Boston that had to do with meeting anyone outside of theatre, especially women. So if they’re a part of that, and enjoy it, then I REALLY have nothing to offer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Which is why I don’t really respond to her personal stories of women who go to her for advice in person or are part of her women meeting things she had.

      The girls in my women meeting things are a diverse bunch, definitely not all from privileged backgrounds, but they are all college educated. That hardly makes them elites. Most of my BU crew are teachers now, none of them are rich or likely to become rich.

      The SMP dynamics I write about describe college hookup culture, and the post-grad 20s experience. I don’t really think it makes much difference whether one is at an Ivy, a large state school, a small private college, NYC, Michigan, Berkeley or Austin. The same things are going on everywhere.

      Plus I hated all of Boston that had to do with meeting anyone outside of theatre, especially women. So if they’re a part of that, and enjoy it, then I REALLY have nothing to offer.

      LOL! A girl who lives in Boston, doesn’t work in theater, and enjoys life is bad news! I hope guys in Boston heed this warning! How is Emerson going to handle the hordes of young men descending on its theater craft department?

  • Alias

    Richard

    If you think *I’m* here to defend the destruction of families/society, then I’ll let you know that I’m definitely not. What I don’t see is an easy fix besides on the micro-level, with each individual.

    *I’m* not in favor of anyone taking advantage of good men.
    Thanks for clarifying abbot’s point, what I was really asking is if he was specifically directing this at me, I’m not sure if he was. ?
    What’s wrong with my statement?
    “If they’re not interested in marrying, then they shouldn’t.”
    Out of all people, I didn’t expect abbot to oppose that one.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    ” Plus I hated all of Boston that had to do with meeting anyone outside of theatre, especially women. So if they’re a part of that, and enjoy it, then I REALLY have nothing to offer.”

    And I should clarify that I say this as a male that moved to Chicago not knowing a single soul in the city, now is successfully networking both professionally and personally, and goes out to bars/pubs with friends and solo on a regular basis. Hell, earlier this week I invited two people I met at a coffee shop back to my stoop to drink with me and we had a blast of a conversation.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Is the same issue with Kate Bolick at 39 “finding herself single” which makes no sense if she never actually actively worked to get married, YMMV.
    —-
    Anacaona,

    You’re right; this makes absolutely no sense. Not every woman is foaming at the mouth to be a wife and mother (I am not and that is for sure…nothing against any woman who is). I remember the many harsh words that were tossed at Kate Bolick on this blog regarding her article in ‘Atlantic’ and I was like give a gimme a break. Do men (and some women) really still think that the best thing a woman could achieve in her lifetime is being some man’s wife, really?

    I am pretty much knocking at the spinsterhood’s door at this point. I have never wanted children so marriage was never this monumental goal. Yeah, I could drop all my standards if I were desperate enough and find my husband in probably a month from now but it is not that serious for me. I am not saying that I would not like the idea of being married, but not so that I can avoid spinsterhood and judgment. What marry some poor schlub and be miserable (when I am not now) just to say, “Hey, look at me I got a husband!” (I actually know women like this). At least, if you’re single and miserable there is some hope of finding someone you could be happy with but to be married and miserable…you’re rather stuck.

    By the way, it is not 1950-something.

  • Ted D

    LoaB – “Ahhhh…. gotcha. I guess I’ll wait and see if clarifies what he meant.”

    Yeah, my bad for writing horribly. I’m just really worked up over this crap. It’s one thing to talk about it all online with a bunch of strangers, but another to see it in my own life. You know what really made me sad? One of my first thoughts was “thank God it isn’t my daughter.” I’ve always done my best to treat this girl as family, but in the end my own selfishness was first and foremost in my mind.

  • Alias

    Ted D:
    ” most people generally suck.”
    ———
    ^^^
    That’s even better than what I wrote and straight to the point. ha
    Contrary to how that paints me, I don’t walk around all cynical and paranoid. Most people have the potential to do better, but many times they don’t for various reasons, so I don’t expect it. I’m interested in finding solutions so that fewer people suck.

  • Underdog

    “It is getting harder and harder for me to sympathize with someone that is simply finding it hard to get a date, when there are likely hundreds of single mothers in a few mile radius around my home”

    Ted, I think you are the greatest troll I’ve ever met on the internet. Keep stirring the pot, man. I’m enjoying the discussion.

  • Ramble

    Do men (and some women) really still think that the best thing a woman could achieve in her lifetime is being some man’s wife, really?

    I am now going to speak for all men everywhere and say that what most of us were reacting to in that article was her tone and tenor.

    I present, article A:

    Nor the 40-ish journalist who, on our second date, driving down a long country road, gripped the steering wheel and asked, “Are you The One? Are you The One?” (Can you imagine a woman getting away with this kind of behavior?) Like zealous lepidopterists, they swoop down with their butterfly nets, fingers aimed for the thorax, certain that just because they are ready for marriage and children, I must be, too.

    And, article B:

    Everywhere I turn, I see couples upending existing norms and power structures, whether it’s women choosing to be with much younger men, or men choosing to be with women more financially successful than they are (or both at once). My friend M., a successful filmmaker, fell in love with her dog walker, a man 12 years her junior; they stayed together for three years, and are best friends today.

    “Everywhere I turn…”.

    It was things like that that made some of us react the way we did.

    You don’t have to agree, but I think that you can understand.

  • Escoffier

    My vote for Greatest HUS Troll goes to Liza, or maybe Tom.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My vote for Greatest HUS Troll goes to Liza, or maybe Tom.

      Too bad we don’t have Jess to kick around anymore.

      Surely Plain Jane in all her incarnations wins this dubious award hands down?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Liza
    The issue is that Kate did used the word “found herself single” and she admits that she knows exactly when she should had married and her article was about regretting it but trying to do what was best what was left of her life. I don’t think that if she had said “I never wanted children or marriage” men would had been so harsh. She earned the scorn because she was practically saying that a go getter woman is completely incapable of marry just because…she made her bed and should lie on it.

    At least, if you’re single and miserable there is some hope of finding someone you could be happy with but to be married and miserable…you’re rather stuck.

    Who taught you that? Being single and miserable also means that you might die and on one will find your body till the smell alerts the neighbors. People on unhappy marriage that stay in then recover after the bad times report being happy again. There is no such a thing as being stuck with someone. Is called enduring the bad times like the wedding vows say for better or worse. I don’t know if you come from a broken home but my parents had been together for 35 years and I saw them elated on happiness, miserable and bored and now content. Nothing in this life is static even friendships have lows, you might personally consider that being with another person always have to bee good, so is good that you don’t want to marry, but there is no such a thing as “being married is being stuck and be single is being free” Those are states of mind, you an be stuck as a permanent singleton full of cats and be free in a marriage, I particularly never feel freer more productive, happy, daring, brave, sexy and hopeful than when I was single and dating (which I hated), YMMV.

  • Ted D

    Alias – “Contrary to how that paints me, I don’t walk around all cynical and paranoid. Most people have the potential to do better, but many times they don’t for various reasons, so I don’t expect it. I’m interested in finding solutions so that fewer people suck.”

    Exactly! Just about everyone has the potential to be better. I’m mostly interested in figuring out what it takes to motivate people to actually DO better. And as much as I appear to by cynical here, I really am not a cynical person. Which is partly why these recent pregnancies have me so upset. I actually thought these girls would do better. They talked the talk, but in the end they failed to walk the walk. So I ask myself: why then did they fail? They aren’t stupid by any means. They at least gave lip service to knowing better, so they can’t claim they were ignorant. They were making plans for a future, so at least on some level they wanted to do better. So I’m really at a loss. There is a failing here besides their own poor judgment.

  • Ted D

    Underdog – “Ted, I think you are the greatest troll I’ve ever met on the internet. Keep stirring the pot, man. I’m enjoying the discussion.”

    Glad you are entertained. Do I get a metal or a trophy? As I understand it, everyone gets one just for showing up. But I figure I deserve something better. ;-)

  • Alias

    “So I ask myself: why then did they fail? ”
    ————-

    The parents share a good portion of the blame because they’re the most influential. Perhaps sex ed should be aimed at parents.

    Here’s one that’s never addressed and one of the most effective, IMO, but least talked about strategies to preventing teen pregnancy.

    “Avoidance of places and situations that might lead to sex.”

    http://www.cdc.gov/TeenPregnancy/AboutTeenPreg.htm

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I got that Kate Bolick was regretful about her choice but it is not like she cannot still get married. She obviously refuses to settle for less than what she wants. If she decided to settle she would be married, it is not that hard. I have never been sold on marriage being the best situation for facilating happiness (it is the best for having children). No else can make someone else happy. I believe happiness is a state of mind not something that can achieved or received through external means or something giving it to you. Sure, sharing my life with someone who really cared about me would definitely enhance my life but expecting them to make me happy because I am not already is a definite recipe for disaster.

    Anacaona, you were probably all the things you mentioned before you met your husband. He probably enhanced those qualities but he was not solely responsible.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I’ve had enough uncomfortable moments at dinner parties to know that I am never going to influence public policy around feminism and female privilege.”

    Is it really that bad? I see a ton of political crap surrounding feminism, but is it really also that deeply ingrained in Left-leaning UMC life in general? I know it is very deeply ingrained in academia, but I always secretly hoped that most of the “supporters” were only giving it all lip service to tow the party line, and didn’t actually believe it to be true.

    I hate to say it, but it does lend a bit of credibility to the voices out in the dark screeching that the democratic party is full of communists that are hell bent on destroying America as we have come to know it. I’m not implying that the Republican party is any better mind you, but they wrap themselves in the cloak of “family values” and “faith based morality” to try and deflect the fact that they aren’t helping either. But at least from them I get the impression that they are selling us to the Chinese for simple profit, while the left is selling us out because they actually believe that the “American Way (TM)” is wrong. If it comes down to it, I prefer being screwed over for profit rather than ideology, but I guess the end result is the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Escoffier is right – it’s impossible to overstate how PC most elites are in the Blue states. What gets me most is the hypocrisy. You should see all my liberal friends bending over backwards to opine that Elizabeth Warren applying to Harvard and Penn as a Native American (she claims to be 1/32, it is unsubstantiated) is not the same as lying on an application. It was the same with the Clinton Lewinsky scandal.

      I find that many local women my age are happy to disapprove of hookup culture, as they claim their daughters have never hooked up with anyone. When I say that it’s a direct result of feminism and the Sexual Revolution their nostrils flare and their eyes narrow. I’m surprised I get invited anywhere, to be honest.

  • Donkey

    Mrs. Walsh,

    I believe your blog has had far more impact than you think.

    Especially in the real world on young people’s lives and decisions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Donkey

      Thanks for the kind words, they help me renew my energy.

  • Escoffier

    Ted, it is almost impossible to overstate the level of PC stultification in the Blue city UMC.

  • Escoffier

    I am not familiar with Plane Jane. I have a soft spot for Liza, though, the Official HUS Indavertent Stereotype Confirmer. Maybe NAWALT, but she definitely is!

    Tom is really a one-trick troll.

  • Escoffier

    BTW, Sue, nobody stays in Berkeley after graduation unless they are going to grad school or have become a hippie and just want to waste away. For anyone in your cohort, they will immediately move across the Bay if staying up north or go to LA. Or to some other big metro area back east. Berkeley has no 20s scene whatsoever. SF has a huge one, though.

    Eventually when people hit big but they can’t afford PacHeights they may settle for the Berkeley Hills. The views are very nice. The food markets are, IMO, the best in the US that I know of. Especially produce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      During my trip to Napa and SF last fall, I was amazed by the food quality. A whole store in the ferry terminal devoted to mushrooms! We had the best picnic ever in Sonoma just be stopping by a local market for the best berries and fresh figs I’ve ever had. And the Jack cheese! And I know you hate olives, but they had these very green, very young olives that were incredible. Next time I’m going to read up on what foodie’s recommend most there.

      Boston is stuck in the Ice Age by comparison.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I got that Kate Bolick was regretful about her choice but it is not like she cannot still get married. She obviously refuses to settle for less than what she wants. If she decided to settle she would be married, it is not that hard. I have never been sold on marriage being the best situation for facilating happiness (it is the best for having children). No else can make someone else happy.

    This is like an unemployed person saying I could be employed if I found my dream job, you are still unemployed. You are also assuming that what someone wants is good regardless if is realistic, possible or even if the man she wants will want her back. There is a lot of PC BS on this concept that if I dream with a pink unicorn that rides me to the sky I shouldn’t buy and love a Toyota and that makes me smart and empowered and in control of my life. There is such a thing as delusion.

    I believe happiness is a state of mind not something that can achieved or received through external means or something giving it to you. Sure, sharing my life with someone who really cared about me would definitely enhance my life but expecting them to make me happy because I am not already is a definite recipe for disaster.

    I agree with the part of not expecting someone else to make you happy, but that a lot different than being single is the same as being married. We are social creatures and even if we can survive and do good alone and we thrive on couple hood.

    Anacaona, you were probably all the things you mentioned before you met your husband. He probably enhanced those qualities but he was not solely responsible.

    I might had been but I didn’t feel them, or knew how to embrace them. Now that I know I have someone to catch me I’m not afraid to jump. If you want to keep telling yourself that marriage is independent of your state of being that is your prerogative but I totally disagree. That is modern BS, PC talk. Marrying good is better than being single, divorced or marrying bad.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    the Official HUS Indavertent Stereotype Confirmer. Maybe NAWALT, but she definitely is!

    ???I though that was Sassy’s position? Everytime she mentions the kind of men she likes most men agree that she is the standard most men should imagine when dating out or get infuriated. But then I’m just a girl maybe I’m reading it wrong ;)

    I’m surprised I get invited anywhere, to be honest.

    Part me wants to believe they actually know but can’t bring themselves to say it and admire your courage, the other part thinks they just don’t know how to politely exclude you or/and they value something you have (husband, kids or relationships) :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      I though that was Sassy’s position? Everytime she mentions the kind of men she likes most men agree that she is the standard most men should imagine when dating out or get infuriated.

      Agreed, the guys love to use Sassy to say “I told you so.” They really loved doing that with Olive, as she was extremely critical of her own sex.

      Part me wants to believe they actually know but can’t bring themselves to say it and admire your courage, the other part thinks they just don’t know how to politely exclude you or/and they value something you have (husband, kids or relationships)

      Well, I have very loyal friends, and usually it’s when I meet their other friends that this happens. I never bring any of this up, btw. Usually, someone approaches me and asks about it. Sometimes, I give the briefest description and change the subject, in part because I need a break from HUS!

  • Escoffier

    Sassy seems to understand herself, not something I would say about Liza.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “My vote for Greatest HUS Troll goes to Liza, or maybe Tom.”

    This is a blog written for women by a woman and most of the commenters here are men and I am the troll, seriously? I know I am not a part of the echo chamber and I know most of the men here just want to say whatever they want about women and the women here are supposed to grin and bear it. Clearly, the men here don’t want to hear what women actually have to say and don’t want to know how we really think or what we want. You just want to sling your shit and we should just put up and shut up. Okay, I got. LOL!

    Susan,

    I don’t know how you deal with it sometimes it is like having a man you have to constantly reassure that he is satisfying sexually every time you both make love. It has to be exhausting and if it were me I would have pulled all of my hair out by now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Liza207

      You’re cool with me, kid. I do not view you as a troll, no way.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    For the record, I was simply interpreting Ted’s comment for Leap’s benefit. I would say that I’m not sure why the advice to the girls he talks about would be meaningfully different than the advice here – it’s just that those girls are unlikely to be searching online for it or to be in your “focus groups”. But fundamentally, it’s the same: The guys you encounter tend to be jerks and cads because women in your demographic are rewarding jerks and cads to the determinent of responsible guys. In Ted’s case, he could add “felons, drop outs and sociopaths” to the list of guys being rewarded.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the mushroom place in the ferry building (Far West Funghi) is excellent, I bought fresh morels there when I was home about a month ago. However, across the bay at the Monterey Produce Market, they have the most astounding mushroom selection I have ever seen. Easily 4x what FWF has and prices that are literally half as much. Fresh morels in SF were $50/lb, in Berkeley $25. And so on. It’s really amazing.

    In NYC, Eataly is probably the best and it’s good but expensive (duh) and the selection is limited by comparison. Westchester is surprisingly lame given how much money is up there.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, your “schtick” is to deny in your “discourse” all the cynical observations that the men make about women, and then confirm it all in what you choose to reveal about yourself.

    This is either an act, in which case it is expert trolling and bravo, hats off. Or it is how you really think, in which case …

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “Marrying good is better than being single, divorced or marrying bad.”

    Anacaona,

    I totally agree with this statement.

    By the way, I find online debates to be quite tiresome, so I am going to wrap it up here.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I don’t really think it makes much difference whether one is at an Ivy, a large state school, a small private college, NYC, Michigan, Berkeley or Austin. The same things are going on everywhere.

    Agree 100%. One of the most interesting things I found on my travels to different schools was that the social scene at Notre Dame wasn’t much different than the social scene at Florida State. Obviously every place has its own characteristics, but most social scenes for young people are relatively similar.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    By the way, I find online debates to be quite tiresome, so I am going to wrap it up here.

    ???? Why did you engaged on it in the first place? I feel like I got pumped and dumped without even having an orgasm myself…can you at least cuddle for five minutes before you leave? ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      ???? Why did you engaged on it in the first place? I feel like I got pumped and dumped without even having an orgasm myself…can you at least cuddle for five minutes before you leave?

      This made me laugh so hard I cried. Definitely the funniest thing you’ve ever said!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan @Escoffier

    Now I’m craving mushrooms, cheese, olives. I only have boring cheeses at home right now like Mozarella and Cheddar I will have to visit the delicatessen when I go shopping later on…Your fault! :p

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Escoffier,

    Muah. I really want you too.

  • Escoffier

    The Cheese Board in Berkeley is hands down the best cheese store in the US. That whole Shattuck & Vine/Gourmet Ghetto area on the North Side is just fantastic across the board.

    Though NY is good for cheese, Zabar’s, Murray’s, Fairway, etc. The produce is where NY really lacks by comparison.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The produce is where NY really lacks by comparison.

      When I first moved to the East Coast, Haas avocados were not always available. Markets carried those terrible shiny Florida avocados. No comparison. I was bereft. Also, I once amazed a waiter in NY just by knowing exactly how to eat a stuffed artichoke. He said he’d never seen anyone dismantle it properly before. I grew up on those! On the other hand, I didn’t learn how to properly eat a lobster until I was 32.

      I grew up in a house surrounded by 9 orange trees. Fresh juice every morning. And the smell of orange blossoms! One whiff of that transports me to the back of Donny Emis’ motorbike every single time.

  • Escoffier

    Liza,

    xoxoxoxoxo

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Oh Anacoana, I am sorry I withdraw prematurely. But you know how we players roll, once we hit it, we quit it. No, there were won’t be any cuddling but it was fun while it lasted, though. ;)

  • Anonymous

    Susan, I am a Gen-X and if I were asked these questions when I was in college or just graduated, my answers would be the same as these kids.

    When we’re young we’re very idealistic and think that we can have a job that has meaning and can save the world and we’ll fall in love/get married/have kids. As we age, we realize that some of those things are not going to happen so we start to want something else. They say the key to happiness is wanting what you have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anonymous

      They say the key to happiness is wanting what you have.

      Wise words. Someone said recently that marriage is about waking up every morning and deciding to love and cherish the other person in the bed. I agree with that. It’s not really conscious, but I recommit every day.

  • Abbot

    “Tom is really a one-trick troll.”

    This Tom has a mission to make it seem like there are batteries of good men worth marrying lining up with catchers mitts gleefully waiting for played out foul balls [sexually expressed explored embraced women] to finally decide its time to land at home plate. If that were the case then all would be dandy for such women [he calls WOEs] but of course its not.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oh Anacoana, I am sorry I withdraw prematurely. But you know how we players roll, once we hit it, we quit it. No, there were won’t be any cuddling but it was fun while it lasted, though.

    All HUS debaters are jerks…Where are all the good debaters! :D…Meh I’ll get a chatbot :p

  • Escoffier

    Abbot, I don’t think Tom actually asserts that these slut-catchers exist in droves. Rather, his schtick is to pop in and say that they SHOULD, that all of us who object to sluts should grow up, we are insecure, they are great women, partner count doesn’t matter. Tom, in other words, is a rear-guard enforcer of feminist orthodoxy.

  • Abbot

    “I don’t think Tom actually asserts that these slut-catchers exist in droves. Rather, his schtick is to pop in and say that they SHOULD, that all of us who object to sluts should grow up, we are insecure, they are great women, partner count doesn’t matter. Tom, in other words, is a rear-guard enforcer of feminist orthodoxy.”

    Then Tom is making statements that feminists want to say but don’t out of fear of appearing like grovelers to men. This sort of enforcer is what feminists need, that buffer who spews feminist buzzwords and tactics and yet projects the image of a burly man who knows best. Then there must be other Tom models out there on other blogs or maybe this is the beta test before the internet is carpet bombed with them.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza

    “I got that Kate Bolick was regretful about her choice but it is not like she cannot still get married. She obviously refuses to settle for less than what she wants. If she decided to settle she would be married, it is not that hard”

    Hahaha. It’s easy to rationalize it as such after the fact to try and cover over a mediocre life with a layer of new paint to make the best of it. You won’t fool anyone that knows the truth though. As such, these words started a song in my head, set to the tune of old “Johnny be good”

    Run hamster run run,
    Run hamster run run,
    Run hamster run run,
    Hamster be good.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap of Beta

      I have it on good authority that Kate Bolick has received numerous marriage proposals since the Atlantic article. I predict she will marry, and marry well. I think she’ll even have a kid or two. Writing that article was brilliant self-promotion. In any case, she got a book deal for a million bucks.

      Her last two BF’s were 11 years younger than her. If she doesn’t marry, she can probably continue to pull younger guys for a while yet.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan
    “Most of my BU crew are teachers now, none of them are rich or likely to become rich.”

    Yeah? Are any of them prof’s at BU? My year of grad school in Boston was at BU. Who knows, might have run into them. I was a VERY different person that year though than who I am now.

    “A girl who lives in Boston, doesn’t work in theater, and enjoys life is bad news! I hope guys in Boston heed this warning! How is Emerson going to handle the hordes of young men descending on its theater craft department?”

    Lord, keep me away from the crazy Emerson girls. They have Issues, capitol I. Though they’re fun, I wouldn’t recommend them for anything other than a fun night. BU theatre girls are crazy, but they were more human. I wouldn’t know much of Harvard or Yalies, but their theatre productions certainly didn’t give them much credit.

    If you’re a college male, able to party on Thursday nights, and know theatre people at BU…. The parties they throw Thursday nights are the most intense they have – it’s their release for the weekend before rehearsals and long build days of Saturday and Sunday. Not much of a hookup scene, but it’ll be fun. Five dollars at the door gets you all the PBR and punch you can drink. Danger, danger Will Robinson, danger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap

      Yeah? Are any of them prof’s at BU? My year of grad school in Boston was at BU. Who knows, might have run into them. I was a VERY different person that year though than who I am now.

      No, most of them are elementary school teachers, BU class of ’10. Well done on your part btw – BU’s theater dept. is incredibly well regarded.

  • Sassy6519

    I though that was Sassy’s position? Everytime she mentions the kind of men she likes most men agree that she is the standard most men should imagine when dating out or get infuriated. But then I’m just a girl maybe I’m reading it wrong ;)

    I do what I can. :)

    With that, I’m off to theatre auditions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      With that, I’m off to theatre auditions.

      You act? Have you talked about that before? Break a leg!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This made me laugh so hard I cried. Definitely the funniest thing you’ve ever said!

    Glad to be of service :D

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan
    “During my trip to Napa and SF last fall, I was amazed by the food quality. A whole store in the ferry terminal devoted to mushrooms!”

    There’s some good stuff in the Farmer’s markets once they start up. I went to one down in JP a few times. Usually I’d bike around the lake a bit, bike down to the market, and then back up to my apartment in Brookline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap

      Usually I’d bike around the lake a bit, bike down to the market, and then back up to my apartment in Brookline.

      That’s crazy, I walk around Jamaica Pond every weekend. It’s likely you rode right by me. Where in Brookline did you live? I’m in Pill Hill – very near the pond.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    “We had the best picnic ever in Sonoma just be stopping by a local market for the best berries and fresh figs I’ve ever had.”

    I remember that…we were probably within a couple of miles you guys that day, and we had a similar picnic at one of the wineries in Sonoma.

    One of the great things of the SF Bay Area (besides the weather) really is the food. NYC is good too, but I was always too poor to buy the good stuff during my time there. In Boston, it was not as good but decent, but I was on a student budget there. It wasn’t till I was a full working STEM guy that I had the money to try some of this stuff out.

    The area you were visiting in Napa/Sonoma is really a good example of the northern California UMC (and above)…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      The area you were visiting in Napa/Sonoma is really a good example of the northern California UMC (and above)…

      No sh*t. I felt like a slum dweller compared to some of the groups at the wineries. Mega bucks on display.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Excuse me? “Richard”?

    ’bout fourteen years ago, two girls of jr. hi age who lived in our neighborhood showed up at our door. When I opened to the knock, they just walked in. They sat down and talked for an hour and a half. It was heart-breaking. They were friends and each had had the same thing happen. Mom left for some stud. They even had to give up their beloved pets.
    ’bout five years ago, one called to ask if she could do a Kirby demo. Okay, but we’re not buying. Her situation was terrible. Living with some guy and his mother. Guy would get a GED if it became an issue. Challenged kid already on hand, ex gf duking it out over paternity of another. Offered to let her bunk in with us since it was late, the weather was bad and she had a long way to go. No, she said, and then, with a smile that makes me ill to recall it, she said, “He needs me.”
    Youi can, of course, think of how I think of her mother.
    Anyway, looked her up on Facebook yesterday. She seems to be doing great, talking in detail about her beloved hobby–which involves money so she has it, and travel, and trappings–and she’s employed by a good company and there was no mention of a guy.
    It’s possible to get past the bad stage, I suppose. Hope so. She was a neat kid when we knew her.
    My dtr played HS soccer. After the last game of a victorious season, they went to Pizza Hut where they were reproached for riotous conduct, although not exactly thrown out. Wish I’d been there.
    Then, at the team dinner, these young ladies dressed up pretty good. Different from seeing them with a warrior face, running like deer, covered in mud. Wondered whether such spit-in-your-eye beauties would avoid buttheads. After the discussion of what makes tingles, I figure probably not.
    Too bad.
    Since a tingle-inducer guy need not be one-tenth the quality of these women.
    A little swagger and some retail edge.
    Shit.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Even Tom has his limits on what he will accept

    What he is saying is don’t automatically disqualify women of High N.

    However, female promiscuity is an excellent indicator of mentally instability, lack of self-control, and selfishness. It also shows a lack of desire to commit.

    Look at the hard numbers, Gen Y is marrying less than any previous generation. If you’re looking for stability or a strong future from Gen Y, you are not going to get it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Look at the hard numbers, Gen Y is marrying less than any previous generation. If you’re looking for stability or a strong future from Gen Y, you are not going to get it.

      It is way too early to say that. They’re barely at the average age for marriage.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy

    “With that, I’m off to theatre auditions.”

    Break legs and let us know how it goes. What shows are you auditioning for, or is it seasonal/open audition deals?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I have it on good authority that Kate Bolick has received numerous marriage proposals since the Atlantic article. I predict she will marry, and marry well. I think she’ll even have a kid or two. Writing that article was brilliant self-promotion. In any case, she got a book deal for a million bucks.

    I think plenty of us called on that one. Just hope that her hamster doesn’t get in the way “If get marriage proposals for middle aged millionaires I should hot out for a hot younger billionaire like Christian Grey! I’m just in my best years!” Please God protect us all from the mighty hamster from hell.

    Contrary to what many people might believe I will be really happy if she still manages to get married. I just wish women and men don’t have to ever be on that position when they can do as good or better without having to run to it and get IVF or get frustrated month after month of period coming when you want to get pregnant (been there done that wouldn’t wish it on Amanda Marcotte) and of course I wouldn’t want guys having to find out their kids are not theirs, their wives with the plumber or coming home to an empty house and divorce papers on the floor ( I wouldn’t wish it on…I rather not tell ;))

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      (been there done that wouldn’t wish it on Amanda Marcotte)

      OMG, you are on a roll today.

      I think Bolick is likely to be extremely hypergamous. She wants a handsome, brilliant, successful man. If she pulls it off, I do not believe she would ever cuckold. Based on my admittedly brief encounter with her, I would vouch for her character. She hasn’t harmed anyone but herself.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan
    “No, most of them are elementary school teachers, BU class of ’10. Well done on your part btw – BU’s theater dept. is incredibly well regarded.”

    Ah ok. Wrong year and I didn’t interact very much with anyone at the school outside of the theatre department.

    And thanks. I was glad I got in, but got out after a year instead of three. They have a good program, but its far too…. New York City and North East for me. The theatre in that part of the country reflects a ton of the values and every day interactions of the people there.

    Give me the honest, dark, and gritty theatre here in Chicago over that any day.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Leap

      Give me the honest, dark, and gritty theatre here in Chicago over that any day.

      Good for you, I respect that. It isn’t easy to walk away from prestige even when it’s not right for you. How many guys have chased Wall St. careers even though they don’t enjoy the work?

      I’m especially aware of the Chicago comedy scene. Any chance you’ll work with some of those folks? Or do they not use sets?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ana
    “Contrary to what many people might believe I will be really happy if she still manages to get married.”

    I’d be very happy if she got married as long as she doesn’t advocate her approach as a great strategy for most women. She’s in the top 1% in that she’s been successful in her career and has retained her physical looks much better than most women at her age. If she comes off as a role model instead of a warning sign with a wringing of hands and sigh of relief at the end, then she’s doing women a great disservice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’d be very happy if she got married as long as she doesn’t advocate her approach as a great strategy for most women.

      Cosign. Kate Bolick is going to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan

    “No sh*t. I felt like a slum dweller compared to some of the groups at the wineries. Mega bucks on display.”

    *Laugh* We were staying at a cabin owned by a couple that we’re friends with, who were well off before one of them joined Google pre-ipo, so yeah, I can relate.

    The northern California rich seem to be generally less overtly ostentatious than their counterparts down in the LA area.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      Yeah, I’d be willing to bet the groups of couples who arrived in limos were all from the south :P

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Susan

    Thanks. It was hard due to what I knew friends, family, and most of all the people at BU would think (didn’t want to burn bridges) but when I was honest with myself, there wasn’t really a choice. Even though I was getting a 3.85 GPA, I was miserable and everyone could see it was a bad fit.

    As for the comedy scene here in Chicago, it’s not likely. The best stand up involves not having a set or props – basically not having any limitations on the actors’ imaginations and abilities. That being said, I have friends that are involved in classes at the Improv Olympics and Second City – they’re trying to get in. And even though I don’t technically need it, every time a bar tending position in either opens up, I toss my resume in simply because it’d be a blast to work a couple nights a week there for some extra cash, some fun, and meeting cool people.

    Flirting with women that are trained to ‘follow their impulses’ makes no part of that decision. No, none at all…. Nothing to see here, move along citizen…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Flirting with women that are trained to ‘follow their impulses’ makes no part of that decision. No, none at all…. Nothing to see here, move along citizen…

      LOL! I agree, I think bartending at Second City would be a blast. So much talent on display – even the hopefuls are amazing.

  • Abbot

    Yawn, another rah rah self-reinforcement article

    http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/single-girl-trend

    Trend…more like a fad.

  • SayWhaat

    I believe they schedule a big work day, e.g. a Saturday at Habitat for Humanity or a shelter, and then at the end of the day they go out for beers together. I think that would be a great way of meeting new people. I’m sure other cities have this as well.

    I just attended a wedding this past weekend between an Irish-American groom and an Indian-American bride. They met building a house for Habitat for Humanity in India. :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    OMG, you are on a roll today.

    Interesting I had been upset for a couple of days now (big fight with my so called best friend from DR that might end the friendship I’m a text message away from erasing her as sister from Facebook) maybe being upset makes me funnier. I usually try to be on a Zen state when I write, but who knows if this feeling in the pit of my stomach as good applications…off to rewrite after I eat some Gouda cheese sandwich with pear juice.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Hahaha. It’s easy to rationalize it as such after the fact to try and cover over a mediocre life with a layer of new paint to make the best of it. You won’t fool anyone that knows the truth though. As such, these words started a song in my head, set to the tune of old “Johnny be good”

    Run hamster run run,
    Run hamster run run,
    Run hamster run run,
    Hamster be good.
    ——–
    Leap of A Beta,

    Your comments addressed to me always make me laugh, that is why I usually don’t respond to them–too busy laughing. And, this comment is really hysterical so…

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Lisa
    Hahaha. I have a dark, jaded sense of humor. I’m glad you appreciated it. The song made me laugh as soon as it entered my head too.

    If only I was more like the stereotypical hipster and played acoustic guitar, I’d write full satirical lyrics to that, play it on youtube, and be an instant hit on the blogosphere. Alas, someone else will have to follow my dreams.

    But the laughter helped, as I was in the middle of writing the newest post on my own blog. I needed the occasional laugh that this and the part where I linked Monty Python in the new post to relate it to women in today’s SMV.

    I win via Monty Python.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I win via Monty Python.

    Monty Python!!! Of to your blog! :)

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I needed the occasional laugh that this and the part where I linked Monty Python in the new post to relate it to women in today’s SMV.

    LOAB,

    Oh, yes, appreciate dark humor. Mony Python rules.

    I wonder if anyone in particular inspired that upcoming post. Yes, I am kind of making it about me. I just know it is going to be brutal but I cannot wait to read it. *laughing as I type*

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    No sh*t. I felt like a slum dweller compared to some of the groups at the wineries. Mega bucks on display.

    A lot of those yuppies live in Marin County. There are plenty of middle-class folks making a living in between the vineyards out here. We just frequent the local breweries instead : )

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza and Ana
    Haha, I hope you enjoy it

    No. It actually hasn’t been inspired by anyone here unless it was done so additionally by my subconscious. I’ve been reading a great deal of psychology on the development of co-dependency issues while also reading “The Game” after Obsidian’s urging to do so.

    If you really feel like digging into it, I link to all the relevant personal experiences, thoughts, and posts I’ve been reading and commenting on at the top of this latest post before I even dig into it myself.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Haha, I hope you enjoy it

    Shrubbery is a classic (had you played Flux? There is a Monthy Python edition really cool and has shrubbery on it) I never though it was a good metaphor for the SMP. Good connection! :)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ana

    Nah, never played Flux. Sounds familiar though.

    I actually surprised myself with the connection. I didn’t have it until I was trying to think of a title for that section of the post. It’s why I love writing a blog and in comments – doing so drastically helps expand my mind and my modes of thinking.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Off topic from what we’ve been discussing, but I just read the Keegan article you linked in passing Susan.

    http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/may/27/keegan-opposite-loneliness/

    Seems to me the word she was looking for was a community to belong to. Roots to put in and a place to grow.

    On top of the accident, its sad to me that this was something that wasn’t immediately apparent. Through out human history it seems like we’ve always known the value of community and belonging to a group of individuals you could relate to and see in person on a daily basis. Even being a 26 year old in theatre that’s moved four times since graduating, I knew I needed this to feel happy and content. It’s disturbing she, and I imagine many other young adults, didn’t even know what they were looking for.

    No wonder the SMV is so fucked up in that kind of ignorance of self, belonging, and content. Without that information and with mainstream media constantly yelling in your ear, how can anyone make choices that would lead to happiness?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Leap of a Beta
    Is a card’s game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluxx actually it works as a metaphor for the SMP too since its appeal is that they have rule changing cards so if you have a card that tells you “You need ten x to win” someone could get another card on top of it “You need Card X to win” and change it when you are almost winning, it sounds frustrating but is really fun you can also win the jackpot by both landing the card that will help you win and winning right away. The SMP wishes it was this fun. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Since Monty Python has been mentioned, it doesn’t seem too OT to post this recent post by John Cleese. V. funny:

      ALERTS TO THREATS IN 2012 EUROPE

      By John Cleese (British writer, actor and tall person):

      The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in Syria and have therefore raised their security level from “Miffed” to “Peeved.” Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to “Irritated” or even “A Bit Cross.” The English have not been “A Bit Cross” since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from “Tiresome” to “A Bloody Nuisance.” The last time the British issued a “Bloody Nuisance” warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.

      The Scots have raised their threat level from “Pissed Off” to “Let’s get the Bastards.” They don’t have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

      The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from “Run” to “Hide.” The only two higher levels in France are “Collaborate” and “Surrender.” The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France ‘s white flag factory, effectively paralyzing the country’s military capability.

      Italy has increased the alert level from “Shout Loudly and Excitedly” to “Elaborate Military Posturing.” Two more levels remain: “Ineffective Combat Operations” and “Change Sides.”

      The Germans have increased their alert state from “Disdainful Arrogance” to “Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs.” They also have two higher levels: “Invade a Neighbour” and “Lose.”

      Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels .

      The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

      Australia , meanwhile, has raised its security level from “No worries” to “She’ll be alright, Mate.” Two more escalation levels remain: “Crikey! I think we’ll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!” and “The barbie is cancelled.” So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.

      — John Cleese – British writer, actor and tall person
      A final thought -” Greece is collapsing, the Iranians are getting aggressive, and Rome is in disarray. Welcome back to 430 BC.”

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    @Liza207

    You’re cool with me, kid. I do not view you as a troll, no way.
    —–
    Susan,

    You have always been cool with me, too. Your dedication should be commended because I don’t think I could deal. More power to you, girl.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    @Leap of a Beta

    Thought provoking post. You have a very interesting writing style. I like it.

    Later.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ana
    OH! I have played Flux! It’s just been a year since I played it – I last played it in Boston. I played the Stoner Fluxx and Zombie Fluxx versions. For some reason my mind was going to some other card game… The one you all raid a dungeon but also back stab each other. I can’t remember the name of it.

    @ Liza
    Thanks for the compliment. Drop by the blog any time.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Susan. Thank you. I was laughing the whole time.

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ana

    Had you played Flux?

    Uh oh, looks like Cthulhu Fluxx is coming…
    http://www.looneylabs.com/
    If anything can destroy the hookup scene, it’s the Great Old Ones : )

    Chrononauts (same company) is a lot of fun, too.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan
    That was hilarious! :D
    Linking to the hubby,thanks we have an unofficial game of “who links the other to the best/funniest/shocking post of the day” from our dating days and I think I win the week for this one. So thanks! :D

    Talking about funny findings…

    Looking for publishing houses to query my almost positively finished Romance book I found that someone launched a line for men. This is some of the requirements:
    *Realistic wording and dialogue for male characters (not the language women WISH men spoke); this extends to the male narrative.
    *More of what men want or need from women: sex, love, acceptance, admiration, dirty talk; less of what they don’t need (judgment, drama, expectation of anticipating woman’s needs)
    *Women taking the initiative during sex
    *Remember that sex is largely visual and verbal for men (for women, it is mainly mental and emotional). Men polled preferred “real women” (natural as opposed to surgically enhanced) and wanted women to “do some of the work”. Interpret that as you will!

    Is the dawn of a new age. ;)
    I don’t particularly like Erotica but I will try to read one of this aimed to men books, too curious for my own good.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Uh oh, looks like Cthulhu Fluxx is coming…

    Birthday present for the hubby found! Hubby is a HUGE Lovecraft fan, so much that the has a Baby’s first Mythos http://www.amazon.com/Babys-First-Mythos-C-Henderson/dp/193174825X somewhere in the house (He hide it from me because I threatened to burn it before he terrorize our kids with it, I’m joking…maybe). Thanks! :D

  • http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    …so much that the has a Baby’s first Mythos

    My God… and I thought I was offbeat, with my Patrick McGoohan Prisoner memorabilia.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My God… and I thought I was offbeat, with my Patrick McGoohan Prisoner memorabilia.

    Heh hubby and I are sort of the interracial poor Adam’s family I can tell you poor kids are whether being amazing or amazingly traumatized ;)

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    there is something troubling when 25% of the Yale class goes racing off to McKinsey, Bain and Wall St. I know that Harvard University has voiced similar concerns about the choices its graduates make coming out of school.

    What’s more troubling is that McKinsey, Bain and Wall St. et al don’t seem to be looking for new hires from schools outside of the Ivy League (if your 25% stat is accurate). Maybe that’s all the trust fund kids know how to do — Big Finance and Big Altruism. There are a zillion schools out there now, many with great econ/statistics/finance/business departments. I’m sure they’d love to see 25% of their classes be so fortunate.

  • Ramble

    The Scots have raised their threat level from “Pissed Off” to “Let’s get the Bastards.” They don’t have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

    As someone of Scottish heritage, I find this both humorous, and offensive, at the same time. Good Stuff.

    When elections roll around, there is always this one to enjoy:

    To the citizens of the United States of America, in light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.

    Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II resumes monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy.

    Your new prime minister (The Right Honourable Tony Blair, MP for the 97.8% of you who have, until now, been unaware there’s a world outside your borders) will appoint a Minister for America. Congress and the Senate are disbanded. A questionnaire circulated next year will determine whether any of you noticed.

    To aid your transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

    1. Look up “revocation” in the Oxford English Dictionary. Check “aluminium” in the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you pronounce it. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as ‘favour’ and ‘neighbour’. Likewise you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up “vocabulary.”

    Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as “like” and “you know” is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up “interspersed.” There will be no more ‘bleeps’ in the Jerry Springer show. If you’re not old enough to cope with bad language then you should not have chat shows.

    2. There is no such thing as “U.S. English.” We’ll let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take account of the reinstated letter ‘u’.

    3. You should learn to distinguish English and Australian accents. It really isn’t that hard. English accents are not limited to cockney, upper-class twit or Mancunian (Daphne in Frasier). Scottish dramas such as ‘Taggart’ will no longer be broadcast with subtitles.You must learn that there is no such place as Devonshire in England. The name of the county is “Devon.” If you persist in calling it Devonshire, all American States will become “shires” e.g. Texasshire Floridashire, Louisianashire.

    4. You should relearn your original national anthem, “God Save The Queen”, but only after fully carrying out task 1.

    5. You should stop playing American “football.” There’s only one kind of football. What you call American “football” is not a very good game. The 2.1% of you aware there is a world outside your borders may have noticed no one else plays “American” football. You should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.

    Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American “football”, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies).

    You should stop playing baseball. It’s not reasonable to host an event called the ‘World Series’ for a game which is not played outside of America. Instead of baseball, you will be allowed to play a girls’ game called “rounders,” which is baseball without fancy team stripe, oversized gloves, collector cards or hotdogs.

    6. You will no longer be allowed to own or carry guns, or anything more dangerous in public than a vegetable peeler. Because you are not sensible enough to handle potentially dangerous items, you need a permit to carry a vegetable peeler.

    7. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 2nd will be a new national holiday. It will be called “Indecisive Day.”

    8. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. All road intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left. At the same time, you will go metric without the benefit of conversion tables. Roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

    9. Learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips. Fries aren’t French, they’re Belgian though 97.8% of you (including the guy who discovered fries while in Europe) are not aware of a country called Belgium. Potato chips are properly called “crisps.” Real chips are thick cut and fried in animal fat. The traditional accompaniment to chips is beer which should be served warm and flat.

    10. The cold tasteless stuff you call beer is actually lager. Only proper British Bitter will be referred to as “beer.” Substances once known as “American Beer” will henceforth be referred to as “Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine,” except for the product of the American Budweiser company which will be called “Weak Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine.” This will allow true Budweiser (as manufactured for the last 1000 years in Pilsen, Czech Republic) to be sold without risk of confusion.

    11. The UK will harmonise petrol prices (or “Gasoline,” as you will be permitted to keep calling it) for those of the former USA, adopting UK petrol prices (roughly $6/US gallon, get used to it).

    12. Learn to resolve personal issues without guns, lawyers or therapists. That you need many lawyers and therapists shows you’re not adult enough to be independent. If you’re not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, you’re not grown up enough to handle a gun.

    13. Please tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us crazy.

    14. Tax collectors from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).

    Thank you for your co-operation.

    * John Cleese
    [Basil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers, Torquay, Devon, England]

    BTW, it is unlikely that John Cleese wrote this, but, it is more fun to think that he did.

    (Yes, I know that Tony Blair is no longer Prime Minister, but I could not find a more recent one and I did not care to change it.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      That’s hilarious. Fawlty Towers is one of my favourite TV experiences ever.

  • Ramble

    12 Episodes.

    Twelve Fucking Episodes!

    Amazing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I’ve read that of all his work, Cleese is proudest of Fawlty Towers. The writing is razor sharp, and the physical comedy is brilliant.

  • Ella

    ”I believe happiness is a state of mind not something that can achieved or received through external means or something giving it to you. Sure, sharing my life with someone who really cared about me would definitely enhance my life but expecting them to make me happy because I am not already is a definite recipe for disaster.”

    I agree with the part of not expecting someone else to make you happy, but that a lot different than being single is the same as being married. We are social creatures and even if we can survive and do good alone and we thrive on couple hood.Thanks for sharing your site.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Hi Ella,

    You are absolutely right. We are social creatures but some of us are happiest when we are alone. The thing about being INTJ is that you do not require a lot of outside stimili or a lot of interaction from others (we do like some occasionally, though). I actually like being alone more than being around people most of the time. I guess for me it is a personally thing. I often wonder how I would function in a marriage, which requires cohabitation–the answer might be separate bedrooms or even better separate residences.

  • kathy

    Fawlty Towers is one of my favs.

    Bloody Hell! You yanks like it too?;-)

  • Cooper

    Liza, I am also INTJ. And I usually gather my confidence from enjoying myself by myself. I find the more people around usually the less I am enjoying myself. I’ve always thought of it like this, if Im alone im doing 1/1 of what *I* want to do., and with ever additional person im then only doing 1/# of how’d I likyork really be spending my time. do however enjoy small groups. I also dread the concept of having your happiness being in another’s hands – cause if you want something done right, you do it yourself. (and that includes handling emotions and happiness.)

    I get the sense that we are similar in preferring alone-time. On the contrary though, (unlike you) I place a high importance on getting married one day and sharing my life with someone. (even if that means being alone – together)
    I guess the fundamental difference between us as INTJ male/female is that you must not have a difficult time having or finding casual sex – OR a significantly lower sex drive. (I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say guys’ are usually high)

    I guess what I’m saying is, I agree with your preference in being alone, but what about being sexually fulfilled – surely that has some sort of importance?
    Or do keep it all casual?

  • Cooper

    **how I’d really like to be spending my time

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    You act? Have you talked about that before? Break a leg!

    Yes, I’ve talked about it before, and thanks for the support!

    @ Leap of a Beta

    Break legs and let us know how it goes. What shows are you auditioning for, or is it seasonal/open audition deals?

    Thanks! I auditioned for a local production of Hairspray. It went very well, in my opinion. Considering the dance portion of the audition, this show is going to wear me out.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Cooper,

    Well, we only make up 15% of the population so most people are a bit thrown when we say we prefer solitude. As a woman who is INTJ (very rare I’ve heard), people are quick to pass judgment citing that the reason I am not partnered is because there must be something deficient about me, which really gets on my nerves. Every time some guy asks me why I am not married yet, I pretty much know what he is trying say–annoying.

    Anyway, to answer your question about my sex drive–it is normal. I am not a fan of casual sex, though.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Liza, introverts are half the population, but Introverted iNtuitives on the MBTI are probably about 15% of the population. I’m INFJ, but apparently that’s a big change from INTJ, because I am all about sharing the bed with my husband and waking up next to him. :P

    I know a few girls who are INTJ and either married or cohabiting. It’s possible that since you’re in NYC, it’s a lot more difficult to find men. And since it doesn’t sound like it’s a priority for you, you are fine with it.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy
    “I auditioned for a local production of Hairspray. It went very well, in my opinion. Considering the dance portion of the audition, this show is going to wear me out.”

    Nice. Sounds like a show that would fit your personality well. As for the dance part – consider it being paid to work out and be able to show off in front of large groups of people every night without anyone thinking you belong in a padded room.

    That’s how I look at it.

    Though, if you decide you’d actually prefer the padded room…. Ask nicely and maybe I’ll build a custom one for you.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    Nice. Sounds like a show that would fit your personality well. As for the dance part – consider it being paid to work out and be able to show off in front of large groups of people every night without anyone thinking you belong in a padded room.

    That’s how I look at it.

    Though, if you decide you’d actually prefer the padded room…. Ask nicely and maybe I’ll build a custom one for you.

    That’s what I imagine the show will be like as well. I don’t need to lose any weight, but I probably will with all the dancing in my future.

    As for the padded room, I’ll pass.

    I do like a man who is good with his hands though, and power tools.

    Purr Purrrrr!

  • Cooper

    Liza, oh I know exactly what you mean. (People presuming reasons why I’m not partnered, and as well as annoyingly asking)

    If you’re not a fan of casual sex, don’t have marriage as a goal, and prefer your time best spent alone, then how you are relationships based?
    Under the pretense that they won’t lead to marriage?

    Do you enter them expecting them to end?

    I’m not trying to sound like I’m prodding – I’m genuinely curious.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Hope,

    Those women are probably with other INTJs. I know introverts and extraverts can do well together but INTJs tend to be on another level and are best suited for each other, in my opinion. He might understand better why I might want to sleep alone a few nights a week or go away on vacation alone sometimes.

    Yes, NYC is a dating wasteland.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy

    “I do like a man who is good with his hands though, and power tools.

    Purr Purrrrr!”

    I’ve never had anyone complain. And the only person I’ve ever hurt with my impact driver is myself, so you’re in safe hands.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Cooper,

    It is not that I do not want to get married someday I would if I met someone that made me want to be. I would love to share my life with someone, but with someone who gets me.

    Okay, my relationships are usually six months at the most (horrible, I know). I prefer relationship sex. I believe the reason they are short-lived is because the guys do not get me and there is an underlying fear of losing my autonomy and independence. And of course, there were a couple of bad bets (men who were not good relationship material).

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Liza, there are lots of INTJ guys playing video games. They love their independence and want lots of time to themselves, too. Maybe try hanging out at Best Buy or GameStop to flirt with men? :P

  • Cooper

    Hope, I finally got suckered into buying Diablo 3 – which of course I’m now obsessed over. Hahaha

    Yeah, my ideal Friday night tonight will include a grocery run, a few hours in the, hopefully very uncrowded, gym, and then some game time!

    That’s if all goes per plan. I usually won’t allow myself to decline any social invitation, but thats not to say I won’t quietly avoid it. What I described above is what I’d most happily spend my night, and it doesn’t exactly require any company.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Cooper,

    Friday night is my social night. I may go to an event or a lounge usually alone (or sometimes with my introverted bff who really hates hanging out at parties and events) in Manhattan. The thing is, I rarely interact with anyone unless they approach and most times I don’t want their company. I have a drink or two and dittle with my phone or whatever, finish my drinks and leave. That is as social as I get.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, cool. Yeah the game is fun at lower levels, until we got to level 60 and got one-shot by things in Act II+ Inferno. We now each have two level 60s, and he’s leveling another one (or rather, I’m powerleveling him).

    Anyway, it’s definitely an activity for introverts.

  • Cooper

    Liza,
    I can be social, although what you described is exactly why I would be avoiding looking to go out. I find I enjoy 1-1 interaction the most, and with each additional person I find “the point” of being there deminishes to factions of that. So if I get a mass invitation, I usually won’t go, I have no interest in being 1/20th of someone else’s company.

    I’ve been known to go through very social phases where I put myself in the middle of large gatherings – usually just to prove to myself I can still be socially dominant. But these are typically short-lived, and I will retreat back to where I enjoy myself the most – which is alone.
    I’ve been told I can be hot n cold, cause I’ll be super social and if I don’t immediately feel fulfilled by it (which I usually don’t), I go back to what I know works.
    In regards to BMTI, they decribe people as having “batteries” and some people get “charged” by having many people in their company. I think we both re-charge on our own.

  • Cooper

    @Hope
    Ah, see I hate getting to max level or too difficult. So I’m taking my time – I usually loot-grind by myself and play story missions when with others. I’m only level 30.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I’ve been told I can be hot n cold, cause I’ll be super social and if I don’t immediately feel fulfilled by it (which I usually don’t), I go back to what I know works.
    —–

    Cooper,

    This is where I have a problem, the “blowing hot and cold” thing. Most don’t get how on some days I can be really friendly and open and others have nothing to say to them. They don’t understand that I have to recharge. And also since I look at certain way there are the accusations of me being aloof, stuck up and what not. You’re in your head most of the time and sometimes you are unaware of people you know walking by you at times–many have stopped acknowledging me because they feel they were ignored by me.

    I’ll admit that I go out to those places with intention of meeting men that’s all.

    You tend to have very few friends and hate being on the phone or entertaining at your home.

    There is a certain freedom you have of not having to answer to anyone or caring whether or not you are liked or accepted by others–since you really don’t reply on anyone to enjoy your existence anyway.

  • Cooper

    I too get mistaken for being stuck up when I choose not to hang out or when i switch from being friendly to quiet.
    The thing is I value my time and I rarely feel other value it equally. I will go far more than half way with making a routine of spending time with someone then I find I’m always the one reaching out. I’ll test them by pulling back for a couple days to find they won’t contact me (as much I was to them)
    I too also usually go out with the intensions of meeting someone. I usually get caught in the friend-area where I don’t know whether I’m wasting my time. It seems some women truly do like having multiple platonic relationships, which I have no interest in. (or very little, should I say)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Leap of Beta

    Yes the problem with Kate Bolick’s case is that if she has a dream wedding with a eligible bachelor she could sent the message that “everything will work itself out” and “Is never to late” thus giving the wrong message to a huge number of women. The thing is knowing American thinking she will likely just say that, how many women do warn other women about making their same choices? Not many *lesigh*

    @Liza
    I want to clarify that if you belong to the minority of people that actually do not mind being alone and really don’t want to have children I couldn’t wish you any more luck in life. But the issue is that many people spent their young years claiming just that and them when they hit the wall they bitch, complain and write articles and create all sorts of stupid initiatives because they can’t find “good men to marry”, I do believe that genuinely some people are not cut out for marriage in the same way some people don’t like sex but they cannot be statistically speaking a lot given the way biology works. The posers are the problem because if they “find themselves single” is no one’s fault but they never acknowledge it and blame “circumstances”. I really have a hard time being forgiving people that don’t own their mistakes.

  • A definite beta guy

    Cooper, sounds like you aren’t using kino or escalating.

    My new conclusion is that I need a better social circle because my current one can’t even talk to guys. Got blown out by a set of doctors. Who. Gives. A. Shit? Just fucking TALK, man.

    People these days, sheesh…

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Ted D

    So I ask myself: why then did they fail? They aren’t stupid by any means. They at least gave lip service to knowing better, so they can’t claim they were ignorant. They were making plans for a future, so at least on some level they wanted to do better. So I’m really at a loss. There is a failing here besides their own poor judgment.

    You know, my guess would be incredibly poor self image. I knew better than to drink, smoke, and experiment with substances as a teen, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. It’s one thing to “know” better. The real trick is to believe you *are* better.

    Whatever the case, I’ve known people who’ve became moms before they became women, and while some were brought down by the burden of parenthood, others managed it quite well and went on to become terrific parents and amazing women. It’s a stupid move, no doubt, but it’s not the end of the world.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ramble
    “Ashley, please remember that each year after a girl turns 26, the likelihood that she will give birth to a healthy child goes down. Unfortunately, this si something that many girls rarely take into serious consideration.”

    What good is taking this into consideration if you are unmarried? Not financially stable enough to raise a child, even if it is healthy? There are more factors to consider before you should consider having kids. A lot of us as young women have found the marriage part to be totally out of our hands.

    @Anacaona
    “which makes no sense if she never actually actively worked to get married”

    You can actively work to get married?

  • Abbot
  • INTJ

    @ExNewYorker, Escoffier

    You guys live in the Bay Area too? :)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Royale
    “What good is taking this into consideration if you are unmarried? Not financially stable enough to raise a child, even if it is healthy? There are more factors to consider before you should consider having kids. A lot of us as young women have found the marriage part to be totally out of our hands.”

    What Ramble is saying is that this is happening because women are told not to make marriage a priority, so they don’t. Instead they go and get a graduate degree, become a career girl, join the peace corps, or something else. Then you’re exactly right, and they’re not appealing to guys to marry in any way.

    Not only have they not been looking for a guy to marry, they’ve been having fun dating, and possibly sleeping around, with guys they know they don’t want to marry.

    So then 30, 35, 40 starts approaching. Bio clock starts ticking. And hamster starts screaming, “where have all the good men gone!?” Not realizing those men are finding a 22-26 year old who does make marriage a priority much more attractive in every way.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    So then 30, 35, 40 starts approaching. Bio clock starts ticking. And hamster starts screaming, “where have all the good men gone!?” Not realizing those men are finding a 22-26 year old who does make marriage a priority much more attractive in every way.

    Leap,

    Are you saying that men now in their late thirties and forties are marrying women in their twenties in droves because they were waiting around for the women in their age range when they were younger to marry? And also, are you saying that women now in their twenties (millennials) are more eager to marry earlier than the women from the Gen-X?

  • Abbot

    “they’re not appealing to guys to marry ”

    The two list system – wife list vs non-wife list – has been around for decades. It was never questioned because nearly all women were qualified to be on the former. But now, suddenly, the fear of it has manifest into attacks on men who would dare abide by it. Imagine that. Who do these women think they are? The nerve!!

  • Abbot

    “Are you saying that men now in their late thirties and forties are marrying women in their twenties in droves because they were waiting around for the women in their age range when they were younger to marry? And also, are you saying that women now in their twenties (millennials) are more eager to marry earlier than the women from the Gen-X?”

    Its a stand off. That is why the marriage is rate is down. The younger women don’t want it and the desirable men who do want it won’t settle for their spent cohorts. This of course assumes that men don’t break out the ultimate federally encouraged dating book aka a passport.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I too also usually go out with the intensions of meeting someone. I usually get caught in the friend-area where I don’t know whether I’m wasting my time. It seems some women truly do like having multiple platonic relationships, which I have no interest in. (or very little, should I say)
    —–
    Cooper,

    A definite beta guy is right, you must escalate. When guys approach me acting like he wants to be friends and not attempting to escalate, he will be friendzoned.

    And yes, women do like having platonic male friends. I think even more so than having female friends–less intrasexual competition. Also, we will never sleep with you…ever.

  • Abbot

    “And yes, women do like having platonic male friends. ”

    Luckily. Female friends typically are the best source for getting laid…via regular access to their female friends.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “…write articles and create all sorts of stupid initiatives because they can’t find “good men to marry”, I do believe that genuinely some people are not cut out for marriage in the same way some people don’t like sex but they cannot be statistically speaking a lot given the way biology works. The posers are the problem because if they “find themselves single” is no one’s fault but they never acknowledge it and blame “circumstances”. I really have a hard time being forgiving people that don’t own their mistakes.”
    —–
    Ana,

    Yes, I hate the posers too and I am often lumped in with them when I proclaim never being interested in becoming a mother and being fine on my own. I by no means believe that there are no more good men left, if I starting believing that, then I might as well just join a nunnery and call it a day.

    I just don’t believe we can have it all as women and I never wanted it all, if I really wanted a family then I would just pursue that path and put the career aspirations on the backburner. However, I believe that women have the right to pursue whatever path they want in life. Yeah, travel and have as many life enriching experiences (and I don’t mean sleeping around with assholes) as possible, so that once they are ready to settle down with someone– they won’t feel like they missed out (this is how a lot of the “eat, love, pray” divorces come about).

  • Sassy6519

    Yes, I hate the posers too and I am often lumped in with them when I proclaim never being interested in becoming a mother and being fine on my own. I by no means believe that there are no more good men left, if I starting believing that, then I might as well just join a nunnery and call it a day.

    I just don’t believe we can have it all as women and I never wanted it all, if I really wanted a family then I would just pursue that path and put the career aspirations on the backburner. However, I believe that women have the right to pursue whatever path they want in life. Yeah, travel and have as many life enriching experiences (and I don’t mean sleeping around with assholes) as possible, so that once they are ready to settle down with someone– they won’t feel like they missed out (this is how a lot of the “eat, love, pray” divorces come about).

    I agree.

    People should be able to choose their paths. If they want to get married, so be it. If they want kids, so be it. If they don’t want marriage or kids, so be it.

    My goal in life isn’t to walk a path that has been forced upon me. I’d rather choose my own path.

    I do want to get married, but I don’t want kids. Having said that, I’m not just going to marry any guy who gives me the time of day. I want a man who will enrich my life, as I intend to enrich his. If I don’t ever meet someone that I like who can do that, I’ll just stay single. Yes, I’d rather end up in a happy marriage, but the world isn’t going to end if I don’t.

    Sometimes, I really hate all this talk of women who pursue their goals and ignore men for awhile. If they do that, who are they potentially harming besides themselves. Why do some men, and some women, take their decisions to delay dating/relationships as a personal affront?

    It may sound a little feminist, but I hate the idea that women should be constantly on the hunt for a husband or seeking their Mrs. degree.

    I’d rather date and marry a man because I genuinely like who he is, not because I feel pressured to find a man, any man, to slap a ring on my finger.

    There is more to life than finding a partner, at least in my opinion. It’s important, yes, but it seems like women are denigrated if they ever give something else a thought besides men.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “Not having it all means no control over how a man thinks and it is entirely up to him if she is worthy of his life dedication. Wife material is solely determined by men despite the brainwashing exercise spewed in this…”
    ——

    Statements like this just give me a headache. I guess having a man/husband should be all any woman should be looking forward to in her lifetime and if she does not end up as some man’s wife and the mother of his children, then her life was a complete and total waste/failure no matter what else she has accomplished. I got it.

    I have actually heard this said about Oprah Winfrey believe it or not. Some believe that her life is a failure because she has decided to forgo marriage and children. Oh, my god.

  • Sassy6519

    Statements like this just give me a headache. I guess having a man/husband should be all any woman should be looking forward to in her lifetime and if she does not end up as some man’s wife and the mother of his children, then her life was a complete and total waste/failure no matter what else she has accomplished. I got it.

    I have actually heard this said about Oprah Winfrey believe it or not. Some believe that her life is a failure because she has decided to forgo marriage and children. Oh, my god.

    You are not alone in your frustration. It rubs me the wrong way as well.

    @ Abbot

    Not having it all means no control over how a man thinks and it is entirely up to him if she is worthy of his life dedication. Wife material is solely determined by men despite the brainwashing exercise spewed in this…

    You do realize that despite the fact that men choose who to commit to, women have to choose the same men in return in order for relationships to get off of the ground?

    Requests for commitment can always be turned down. Just because a man asks a woman to be his girlfriend or wife does not mean that she will agree.

    The truth of the matter is that the power of commitment is only as strong as the least willing participant.

    It doesn’t really matter how much men claim to choose “marriage worthy” women. The only reason a man has such a choice is because the woman agrees to allow herself to be caught. It takes two to tango. Don’t forget that.

    *If it isn’t readily apparent, this conversation is really grating on my nerves.*

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Sometimes, I really hate all this talk of women who pursue their goals and ignore men for awhile. If they do that, who are they potentially harming besides themselves. Why do some men, and some women, take their decisions to delay dating/relationships as a personal affront?
    —–

    I hate this too. Men are offended because many still believe that they are all any woman should be focused on to validate her existence. I believe women who are offended; secretly wished they had the courage to make the same decision but would rather walk the path laid out for them by society to avoid social ostracizism. If you are so happy and satisfied with your decision to be a wife/mother–what the hell does it matter to you that other women have made the decision not to be. Or them feeling regretful that they missed the boat. You should just be focused on your own life, the life you profess to be so happy with.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “Men are offended because many still believe that they are all any woman should be focused on to validate her existence.”

    This is not what we mean. We are telling women that there best bet in attracting a great mate is in their 20s and they should not be turning away a great man because the 20s are meant “for fun.” We also admonish women for not taking active efforts to find a life partner.

    Now perhaps you and Sassy are exceptions, but most women seem to expect some guy to drop out of the heavens at the exact moment they are ready for a husband, after ignoring guys for years and putting in no effort in finding a mate.

    It reeks of selfishness.

    These women should be shamed.

  • Abbot

    “if she does not end up as some man’s wife and the mother of his children, then her life was a complete and total waste/failure no matter what else she has accomplished. I got it.”

    Got what? No such statement was made and men especially do not waste their time gossiping about what strangers do. For every woman who does not satisfy the happily narrow male selection criteria, there are dozens who do. The only challenge for men today in certain geographic locations is ferreting out the charlatans. Sort of a pain in the ass.

  • Abbot

    ““Men are offended because many still believe that they are all any woman should be focused on to validate her existence.”

    “This is not what we mean. ”

    It does not matter. All that matters is it makes someone happy or less sad to believe that is what men mean.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Definite Beta,

    These women should be shamed.

    Why? Isn’t the fact that they’ll have more difficulty finding a mate enough? Or are we shaming them to make an example of them, using them as a cautionary tale to tell young women to keep them from partying with the so-called “alphas” or “bad boys” or whatever it is we’re calling them this year?

    You say that the desire to spend one’s 20’s pursuing dreams and dating/sleeping around and then expecting to have a husband-ready man fall out of the sky at the moment they’re ready is selfish. I agree. But isn’t it also selfish to shame these women in order to convince them to get serious early with beta nice guys?

  • Michael

    ”You do realize that despite the fact that men choose who to commit to, women have to choose the same men in return in order for relationships to get off of the ground?”´

    Men choose? Choose what exactly? If memory doesn’t fail me, the only guys getting laid in High school were numbered around 20 and in college it was around the same. Then the majority of these guys worked and studied during the 20’s, saved up money, draw the attention of the majority of the women who had their fun and were looking to settle down.

    That’s not choosing the women they want to commit to. That’s accepting the fact that this, picking up the left-overs of somebody else, having to deal with the women’s stds, and knowing that they’re the women’s last pick is their only possible shot at getting any sex. Since, you know.. Women made professional prostitution illegal in the states and in Canada to minimize their competition. That is, access to men’s resources.

  • Michael

    ”Abbot June 2, 2012 at 2:30 pm
    “And yes, women do like having platonic male friends. ”

    Luckily. Female friends typically are the best source for getting laid…via regular access to their female friends.”

    Can’t really relate to that. Most of the women I’ve met and decided I was good enough to be their orbiter aka, male friend, weren’t anything to look at. With the exception of one below-average girl who is now very much above-average(and loves to tease me and provoke me any chance she has) thought they’d lose me if they were to introduce me to their girlfriends.

    I’m not a creep, not fat, etc etc, but the free male attention was just too good to risk losing it. What did I do? I ended those friendships and now I only interact with men. Life is pretty sweet now.

  • Escoffier

    INTJ:

    I am from NorCal, all my family is still there, and I went to Cal, but I live in New York now. I would like to go home.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Leap of a Beta
    “Instead they go and get a graduate degree,”

    This makes women less appealing as wives?

  • Abbot

    “Instead they go and get a graduate degree,”

    “This makes women less appealing as wives?”

    Men are relatively simple so there are only a few things that make women less appealing as wives. Having degrees [womens studies notwithstanding] is not one of them.

  • Abbot

    Ummm, any guys want children?

    Ever wonder why numerous women have trouble conceiving. Yeah, poor sucker husband.

    Sperm-agglutinating Antibodies and Decreased Fertility in Prostitutes

    http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Citation/1967/30020/Sperm_agglutinating_Antibodies_and_Decreased.4.aspx

    On another note, Darwin (1871) contended that choosy females were responsible for the flamboyant physical and behavioral traits of males.

    From this book

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Descent-Man-Selection-Relation/dp/0691023697

    .

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Without getting too scientific, I think it’s pretty easy to see why planning marriage squarely around reproductive age just isn’t practical now days. This strategy worked well when the economy allowed most middle class men to support an entire family with a single salary. Now days, the higher the earning potential of both parents, the better off the family will be. Women’s degrees are not solely some token feminist triumph. In the current economy, it is often a necessity.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You can actively work to get married?

    This is pretty much what HUS is about. Smart dating, being the most attractive you can be so your pool of men widens, know venues to know men that are marriageable and not losers and so on.

    However, I believe that women have the right to pursue whatever path they want in life. Yeah, travel and have as many life enriching experiences (and I don’t mean sleeping around with assholes) as possible, so that once they are ready to settle down with someone– they won’t feel like they missed out (this is how a lot of the “eat, love, pray” divorces come about).

    I would like to know why everybody here think that men are some sort of ball and chain or that airports and hotels deny you entrance if you are with a man. You can do all that after you get married too, there is nothing a married women can’t do that a single woman can except sleeping with other people. The whole theory of “missing out” is really problematic. We all miss out on something “I will never became and astronaut” for example assuming that marriage is the thing that will get in the way of all your fun is a bad message to sent.

    If you are so happy and satisfied with your decision to be a wife/mother–what the hell does it matter to you that other women have made the decision not to be. Or them feeling regretful that they missed the boat. You should just be focused on your own life, the life you profess to be so happy with.

    Had you read articles written by women about women that marry young and love children? Is the other way around women are shaming women because they shame traditional choices and because they then start writing this articles of “where are the good men” after certain age. Outside of HUS there is more pressure to get a post degree before 30 than having a baby before 30. Regardless if you get indebted by 80,000 dollars for a degree in medieval literature and end up working at Don Taco.

  • Emily

    “I would like to know why everybody here think that men are some sort of ball and chain or that airports and hotels deny you entrance if you are with a man. ”

    +1

    My love of travelling is actually one of my more selfish reasons for wanting a partner. I’d like to have a big strong man to protect me while I visit foreign countries. ;)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Man. I seem to have stirred the waters with that last post and then just got home now, at 5:40 am, after a long day setting up and striking a wedding at the planetarium.

    So, many responses to follow. Check your appropriate section, and feel free to jump in on someone elses if you think it’ll make for good conversation

    @ Liza
    “Are you saying that men now in their late thirties and forties are marrying women in their twenties in droves because they were waiting around for the women in their age range when they were younger to marry?”

    I’m saying that men are starting to awake to the fact that their natural inclination at finding younger wives instead of wives their same age has absolutely no draw backs. It’s still rare, but expect to see it more often.

    “And also, are you saying that women now in their twenties (millennials) are more eager to marry earlier than the women from the Gen-X?”

    No. I’m saying that they should be and aren’t.

    @ Scot
    “But isn’t it also selfish to shame these women in order to convince them to get serious early with beta nice guys?”

    Shame is a tool not used for the betterment of the individual but of those that are able to see them as an example – women younger than her that have the ability of still making other choices. For instance I would use Marcott’s story as a shame example to women I know as a “Don’t do this and end up a 39 year old lonely feminist looking to a future of cats. You will not be as lucky with your looks and career as she was, and she’s still single”

    @ Royale
    “This makes women less appealing as wives?”

    The degree itself doesn’t matter one way or the other. Most men simply don’t care what level of formal education you get. Men have a minimum intelligence required – after reaching it we don’t get a shit and a formal post grad education has nothing to do with your actual intelligence.

    Instead, its the things that come with it that make it unappealing. Why marry someone who’s dumped years of her life into something you don’t care about, may not actually help her career, added a shit ton of extra debt in student loans (that she’ll probably expect you to help with or help with other things like rent so she can pay them), is by necessity several years older, and probably had a few more years of either sleeping around or serial monogamy? All of those are detriments, and nothing in the degree or any side benefits matter to men looking for a wife.

    @ Ana
    +1 to everything you just said – actively searching to find a husband right from the start along with a man not being a ball and chain but rather being a partner.

    Honestly – the only way a husband, LTR, or anything is a ball and chain is if you like to sleep around. Otherwise they should OPEN more doors and be ready to journey through them with you.

    @ Royale again
    “Without getting too scientific, I think it’s pretty easy to see why planning marriage squarely around reproductive age just isn’t practical now days. ”

    Fair, but you also can’t expect to have a husband fall in your lap. Like Ana said, it takes work and you should have it as a priority from the start. You date people with the goal of finding a husband – not a boyfriend to pass the time with or people to sleep with. Otherwise you’ll pass your whole fertility or simply become a girl no man is interested in.

    @ Abbot
    Did you respond to posts that got deleted or something? A lot of this shit simply looks like you’re quoting a previous post I’m not seeing…..

    @ Emily
    “I’d like to have a big strong man to protect me while I visit foreign countries”

    <- Will guard bodies for plane tickets. Maybe even yours if you ask nicely.

  • Escoffier

    Royale, that’s kind of a chicken or egg question. At least, it’s not true that working women are simply a response to economic pressure. Ideologically, that’s not the argument that the early feminists were making. Friedan, recall, had a comfy UMC life on one income. She was bored.

    At any rate, once you begin a massive expansion of the workforce for some reason, ideological or otherwise, the laws of economics say that as the labor force grows, wages (for all) will drop. Also, Elizabeth Warren (current MA Senate candidate and former bank czar, etc.) wrote a book in which she showed the the #1 reason why housing prices have risen much faster than inflation over the past 50 years has been the two-earner family. More money chasing scarce goods = higher prices.

    So feminism is as much, or more, a cause of the things y0u describe as an effect.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Escoffier…”At any rate, once you begin a massive expansion of the workforce for some reason, ideological or otherwise, the laws of economics say that as the labor force grows, wages (for all) will drop.”

    This is only true if the expanded workforce is not doing productive things. As you note later in your comment, inflation is caused by more money chasing scarce goods. More workers doing useful stuff=less scarcity of goods.

    There was vast increase in US population from, say, 1870 to 1970…yet real incomes (ie, incomes adjusted for inflation) went up tremendously.

    One could argue that a substantial number of the jobs created in the last 40 years are NOT economically productive, but are rather the economic equivalent of getting paid for digging holes and filling them up again…MAYBE a higher % of women than of men are in jobs of this kind, but it’s not obvious one way or the other.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Leap of a Beta
    “Instead, its the things that come with it that make it unappealing. Why marry someone who’s dumped years of her life into something you don’t care about, may not actually help her career, added a shit ton of extra debt in student loans (that she’ll probably expect you to help with or help with other things like rent so she can pay them), is by necessity several years older, and probably had a few more years of either sleeping around or serial monogamy? All of those are detriments, and nothing in the degree or any side benefits matter to men looking for a wife.”

    I hope men haven’t been assuming all of those things about me or women with a similar career path. My intelligence is what has allowed me to graduate debt-free (scholarships), my PhD program paid for my tuition and gave me a stipend, I’m currently earning over 70 per year, and my research area may very well save lives (bioengineering). But I am 35, so I guess I’m an old maid. :) Maybe it is a smart idea to lie about my education and job so that I can protect myself from the assumptions you described. I was never aware that guys might assume those things about someone like me.

  • Abbot

    “there is nothing a married women can’t do that a single woman can except sleeping with other people. ”

    The biggest motivator for these types of women is the feeling they have been given the “green light” to engage in seemingly inconsequential abundant cheap easy pleasure with any and always willing men.

    Note the slut-speak :

    Travel
    Life enriching experiences

    Now the grovel-speak:

    Ready to settle down
    Feel like they missed out [in the name of a more solid marriage]

    This nonsense is sooo transparent. None of this is human nature. Its pure spoiled brat looking to experiment with genitalia nerve stimulation and an addiction to male attention [um certain males]. It applies to Western women. Go to other places and you will find a massive population of women with no such desires or behaviors.

    Thus it is dismissed for what it is. Marry wisely gentlemen.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “This is pretty much what HUS is about. Smart dating, being the most attractive you can be so your pool of men widens, know venues to know men that are marriageable and not losers and so on.”

    I think that the success of working to avoid losers is entirely feasible. However, I’m a bit cynical about the idea of working to get married. It seems like that would involve some sort of mind control. Maybe I’ll learn about how this magic works here at HUS.

  • Abbot

    “I’m a bit cynical about the idea of working to get married. It seems like that would involve some sort of mind control. ”

    Sleeping around involves no mind control whatsoever – no control from the woman directly causes no control from a man. Not engaging in sexual activity until surety of commitment from a man may not be a guarantee but is sure as heck increases the probability.

  • Sassy6519

    Instead, its the things that come with it that make it unappealing. Why marry someone who’s dumped years of her life into something you don’t care about, may not actually help her career, added a shit ton of extra debt in student loans (that she’ll probably expect you to help with or help with other things like rent so she can pay them), is by necessity several years older, and probably had a few more years of either sleeping around or serial monogamy? All of those are detriments, and nothing in the degree or any side benefits matter to men looking for a wife.

    Good to know that my current pursuit of a graduate degree in psychology amounts to this in male minds.

    Fan-fucking-tastic.

    Oh noooooo. The women who pursue higher education didn’t spend all their attention on me. Instead, they actually cared about something else besides men. They may have also slept with a bunch of men during that time instead of hunting for a man to slap a ring on her finger. We simply can’t have THAT.

    Seriously? What in the fuck people?

    It’s shit like this that makes me wonder why I’d even want to end up with a man at all, especially if he thinks my interests and goals in life amount to mere peanuts.

    Leap of a Beta, you and I usually see eye to eye, but what in the hell is this?

  • Abbot

    “picking up the left-overs of somebody else, having to deal with the women’s stds”

    The biggest preventable danger to fertility is due to uncontrolled sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) such as syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia. These can cause irreparable damage to the reproductive tract in both men and women. STDs can be prevented by:

    – being informed and aware of the risks they pose.
    – not engaging in promiscuous sexual activity.

    http://www.drmalpani.com/book/chapter49.html

    Life mate selection is a serious matter
    .

  • Abbot
  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Leap of a Beta,

    Shame is a tool not used for the betterment of the individual but of those that are able to see them as an example – women younger than her that have the ability of still making other choices. For instance I would use Marcott’s story as a shame example to women I know as a “Don’t do this and end up a 39 year old lonely feminist looking to a future of cats. You will not be as lucky with your looks and career as she was, and she’s still single”

    Thanks for the response. I get it. Like I said above, we’re using these older women as a cautionary tale. But what man really wants to try to form a meaningful bond with a woman who’s only seeking out a serious relationship to avoid shame and disappoint later in life? And what woman is going to feel comfortable relating to a man who makes it his business to shame another woman for indulging aspects of herself that she herself has considered indulging?

    Also, while I’m not personally bothered by some casual sex in a woman’s past, I do understand the arguments made by men against women who have participated in hookup culture (specifically by the writer virtually known as Jesus Mahoney, whom I consider a personal friend). So I can sympathize with the perspectives of many of the men here.

    That said, I don’t think shaming is going to help. Coming from a man, it always carries a hint of bitterness. Even as a man who is separated and heading for divorce I can say that I love real, meaningful relationships to casual sex. I’d love to see young people form relationships that help them grow and develop and mature as people instead of fucking random people from bars and clubs because they’re too absorbed with their school or career to take the time to get to know someone else intimately. Yet surely fear and shame aren’t going to lead to intimacy. I think focusing on the value of relationships rather than the cost of casual sex to a woman would be a sounder strategy.

  • Abbot

    “I think focusing on the value of relationships rather than the cost of casual sex to a woman would be a sounder strategy.”

    The cost of casual sex is not something to elaborate and men are not focused on shaming women. The cost of such behavior bears out later and it is something the woman will encounter and deal with it if she chooses. That typically happens when suddenly she wants marriage and finds out she is the victim of a cruel hoax. Men do not shame with words but rather by inaction. Its only a matter of time until the mainstream media is splattered with articles about this developing trend.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Abbot,

    Men do not shame with words but rather by inaction.

    All well and good, I support the right of men to choose partners based on whatever criteria they see fit to. But it does seem that men are shaming with words here.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Sassy

    “Oh noooooo. The women who pursue higher education didn’t spend all their attention on me. Instead, they actually cared about something else besides men. They may have also slept with a bunch of men during that time instead of hunting for a man to slap a ring on her finger. We simply can’t have THAT.

    Seriously? What in the fuck people?”

    So let me explain what this sounds like to men and what the actual thought process:

    What you’re saying is that you have an incredibly busy life right now and can’t be bothered looking for a husband, but you’re definitely going to be “having fun” in the mean time with relationships that do not matter and casual encounters. At the end of this time, you will be less attractive to most men because you will be older and will have had more partners, and your actions will have directly led to the spurning of many men who weren’t even close to the carousel ride that you think is your birth-right. Men who are now going to be in your bachelor pool of potential mates.

    Not only that, but since most girls have some sexual hang-ups from their pasts, we will have to deal with that. If OKCupid blog is any indicator, women become less kinky over time, so we’re also missing out on your kinky sex periods. The relationship skills you learned in your prior relationships will have been tailored towards the men you met, and quite frankly might not be all that relevant anyways because you were in fake relationships that you knew wouldn’t last because you weren’t looking for a husband. So we will have to work past all your old relationship baggage, too.

    You are absolutely free to do whatever you want.

    But all else equal, we would prefer a girl who actually WANTS to find a life partner and makes that her priority early on in life. And I bet most of us would absolutely 100% support her going to get a graduate degree after she makes us the happiest man in the world, too.

    All else being equal, you’re treating us as a lower priority, this other hypothetical girl is treating us as a higher priority. Obviously we would prefer the girl who treats us a higher priority.

    And a graduate degree in psychology, while interesting, does not make up for that. It just isn’t that big of a deal or attraction trigger. As far as I care, once you have a bachelor’s, you are already signaling that you are a quality life partner.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Royale
    I am, by necessity to the discussion, speaking in generalities. You being a woman in a STEM field is already a rare thing, let alone getting a grad degree free of debt. I’d say don’t hide it, but know that you’ll have to show you’re the exception to the rules.

    And not every man thinks this way, just red pill men.

    @ Sassy
    I think you’re reading more bitterness into my words than was there. I don’t make assumptions about people. That’s what relationships are for, a fun exploration of each other and the worlds you live in. I’m merely pointing out things I personally would look out for.

    Personally if I was dating someone that was in or had gotten a post grad degree I’d look for several things. Does she now think she gets to lord over the idea of ‘being right’ because of her education? Is she still able to be feminine? Did she ‘have her fun’ in her 20’s and is now using me to enter her ‘settle down’ phase or has she being actively looking for a good relationship the whole time? Post grad degrees just mean a man has to look for certain tells that can come with it. Though honestly the one that sticks out the most now that I’ve written it is the ‘being right in everything’ one, and all of those are still things you have to worry about with women in general, and I’d say just need a slight increase in looking out for it with post grad women

    It’s not like I expect women to just sit on their ass, twiddle their thumbs, and do nothing with themselves for all of their lives before I meet them. But I do expect that, if they want to be considered wife material, they have spent the previous time actively looking for a good man, that I might be considered the potential for that, and they haven’t slept around.

    An important disclaimer that the best thing a woman can do, for me personally, to be attractive for a relationship is be feminine so that I can relax and enjoy my time around you. Most of the guys that have posted here agree with that. If they had to list things that add to a woman’s ability to do so, I doubt a post grad degree would be on it.

    Sassy, you seem to be an exception. You’re not the usual woman that sleeps around and don’t seem to be one that is getting a post grad degree just to check off a life goal, but because it made sense to do. From what I know of Psychology, its pretty much required to do to work in the field. I know this, its why I enjoy throwing shit back and forth with you.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    Thanks ADBG

    @ Sassy and Royale

    “What you’re saying is that you have an incredibly busy life right now and can’t be bothered looking for a husband, but you’re definitely going to be “having fun” in the mean time with relationships that do not matter and casual encounters”
    +
    “All else being equal, you’re treating us as a lower priority, this other hypothetical girl is treating us as a higher priority. Obviously we would prefer the girl who treats us a higher priority.”
    =
    A man’s reservation with post grad.

    But I guess that, just like with any woman, it all comes down to simply proving that you’re the exception. You’re a rare 21st century woman that knows what society tells us of gender roles right now is a crock of shit, and knows what it really means to be a woman and knows she wants a man that knows how to be a man.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    So let me explain what this sounds like to men and what the actual thought process:

    What you’re saying is that you have an incredibly busy life right now and can’t be bothered looking for a husband, but you’re definitely going to be “having fun” in the mean time with relationships that do not matter and casual encounters. At the end of this time, you will be less attractive to most men because you will be older and will have had more partners, and your actions will have directly led to the spurning of many men who weren’t even close to the carousel ride that you think is your birth-right. Men who are now going to be in your bachelor pool of potential mates.

    This is the problem I am having.

    It seems that men automatically equate pursuit of higher education by women as them shunning relationships/dating and banging countless men. Where is this coming from? One does not guarantee the other. I don’t know of a single woman on this site who is purposely avoiding men or refusing to date them. Most of the women I know in pursuit of higher education are also dating or in relationships.

    It seems like men are putting an awful amount of pressure on women to hunt for husbands when a great deal of success in finding a compatible mate is left up to chance. Why are women being blamed for something they don’t have absolute control over? I have said before that I am not against settling down with someone, but only if I meet someone who is compatible with me that I like. I can’t control whether or not I will meet such a person. I can only hope to be so lucky.

    In my opinion, anyone in a long-term relationship should be thankful for being lucky enough to meet someone who can love/tolerate them. Love is a privilege, not a right. No one is guaranteed a partner. It’s sad, but it’s true.

    Aside from being pleasant, attractive, and at the right place at the right time, there’s not much a person can do to help the possibility of finding a mate. Whether we want it to be the case or not, a huge portion of finding a mate is left up to chance.

    Personally if I was dating someone that was in or had gotten a post grad degree I’d look for several things. Does she now think she gets to lord over the idea of ‘being right’ because of her education? Is she still able to be feminine? Did she ‘have her fun’ in her 20’s and is now using me to enter her ‘settle down’ phase or has she being actively looking for a good relationship the whole time? Post grad degrees just mean a man has to look for certain tells that can come with it. Though honestly the one that sticks out the most now that I’ve written it is the ‘being right in everything’ one, and all of those are still things you have to worry about with women in general, and I’d say just need a slight increase in looking out for it with post grad women

    It’s not like I expect women to just sit on their ass, twiddle their thumbs, and do nothing with themselves for all of their lives before I meet them. But I do expect that, if they want to be considered wife material, they have spent the previous time actively looking for a good man, that I might be considered the potential for that, and they haven’t slept around.

    That’s the key distinction though. A woman who doesn’t put herself out there, or try to be her most attractive self, has no one to blame but herself. The key thing is whether or not she has been open to the possibility of love, not the graduate degree itself. Pursuing a graduate degree does not mean that those women have totally disregarded men. A woman can pursue her career goals while being open to love. I know it’s possible to do both because it’s what I do.

    With that being said, I know there is still the possibility of ending up single. I can’t fight chance. Not everyone is so lucky to find a good partner. I’ll continue doing my best to improve myself and staying in the dating pool. I can only hope that a good fisherman comes along and catches me.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    [quote]My love of travelling is actually one of my more selfish reasons for wanting a partner. I’d like to have a big strong man to protect me while I visit foreign countries. [/quote]

    Oh yeah traveling with hubby is always so much fun and I know at the end of the night I’m getting laid what is not to love? ;) There is a lot of good things about being married aside from the company and if you hate getting hit on (which I do oh so much) you will have an invisible shield

    Honestly – the only way a husband, LTR, or anything is a ball and chain is if you like to sleep around. Otherwise they should OPEN more doors and be ready to journey through them with you.

    Yeah, that true. I don’t think I could had written my trilogy (well I haven’t finished it yet) without being married. Is a whole new level of understanding of human nature and perception.

    I think that the success of working to avoid losers is entirely feasible. However, I’m a bit cynical about the idea of working to get married. It seems like that would involve some sort of mind control. Maybe I’ll learn about how this magic works here at HUS.

    Come on you are a scientist right? All you need to to is study how people that end up married and happy ended there and compare with single cat ladies. Men are not shy about what they find worth it of commitment. Is not that hard.

    That said, I don’t think shaming is going to help. Coming from a man, it always carries a hint of bitterness.

    That is why women need to do it. But for that we need to stop the “Hurting people’s feelings is worst than killing them” sort of culture that is probably the hardest part most people seem to have shame in the same category as a hate crime in their upbringing.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @Sassy

    “It seems that men automatically equate pursuit of higher education by women as them shunning relationships/dating and banging countless men. Where is this coming from? One does not guarantee the other. I don’t know of a single woman on this site who is purposely avoiding men or refusing to date them. Most of the women I know in pursuit of higher education are also dating or in relationships.”

    Well, let’s clear something up here. It seems like myself, Ted, and maybe some other guys here are of the opinion that not all LTRs are “good.” If you are, say, in college, and you’re dating some guy because you just want to be in a relationship and really have no intentions of TRYING to make a life long partnership, it’s not really something I like.

    It’s much different from a girl who has a LTR at 23 that might result in landing a husband but it just didn’t work. One has intentions of forever, the other is just killing time.

    Honestly? I’d prefer you not date men at all than just kill time. Is this a catch-22 situation? Men are not important enough that you want to search for one right now, but not so unimportant that you aren’t going to kill time with them because they are fun. It’s not casual sex, but it doesn’t fit my ideal of romance either.

    Just clearing that up. I have no idea what’s going on in your life, so I’m not sure what you are doing, and don’t take that as a personal judgement.

    As for the knee-jerk reaction thing to “you just want to sleep with lots of men!” thing: a lot of us guys have been taken advantage of pretty much our whole damn lives. Now we are in a very dangerous situation where we might make long-term life commitments to women who might take advantage of us.

    We will be very, very wary.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Esc

    Also, Elizabeth Warren wrote a book in which she showed the the #1 reason why housing prices have risen much faster than inflation over the past 50 years has been the two-earner family.

    Interesting conclusion. I read Robert Shiller’s book and he showed that inflation-adjusted U.S. home prices, though bouncing around a bit, were relatively unchanged between 1947 until the late 1990s boom. After that, home prices blew through the roof until things imploded 4 years ago. I assume Warren’s using the same data?

    Anyway, if she’s right, it sounds like the housing collapse would have been avoided if A) women hadn’t gotten a taste of full employment during WWII; and B) the pill hadn’t been developed in 1960 : )

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy
    I think I’m doing a miserably poor job of explaining this. I’m gonna give it one more shot before going to get some lunch.

    Post grad women seem as if the majority of them have a ‘checklist’ of things to accomplish in life to prove they are successful and have shown our currently super feminist influenced society they have what it takes. First comes Undergrad and having her fun. Then a few years in the work force, or peace corps, or traveling Europe, or something else. Or maybe they skip that checklist and go right for the post grad check. Then Husband. Then kids. Then raising them while being a career mom, or divorce, or whatever, something.

    Men simply don’t want to be a check mark on the way to kids.

    Other than that, the major thing is the over-educated woman always correcting other people. Otherwise the sleeping around and everything you mention…. the more I look at it, the more I’m realizing that any woman of the age that you are when you get out of post grad should be one I’m…. looking for tells, of those behaviors. They’re not a post grad thing – they’re a woman being of a certain age thing.

    At the end of the day, smartly doing this by not sleeping around and showing that you’re a quality woman simply looking for and not finding a quality man is what counts:

    “With that being said, I know there is still the possibility of ending up single. I can’t fight chance. Not everyone is so lucky to find a good partner. I’ll continue doing my best to improve myself and staying in the dating pool. I can only hope that a good fisherman comes along and catches me.”

  • Abbot

    “Obviously we would prefer the girl who treats us a higher priority.”

    or

    “We will be very, very wary.”

    Its a minefield for men in the West. Many women are not even aware of what and how men are thinking. The others who are aware are smarter and that smartness often manifests itself in attempting to nullify or proactively deny anything is wrong. The propaganda you see in all those tiredly repetitive articles is being expressed because this type of woman is frustrated and angry and none of this is easy for them. Its not easy because women want men to be there for this now and that later but men are cut from one category, unlike women who are easily put in slut and non-slut piles. That same easily willing man who is just there for your genital convenience tonight will be the same one who rejects you a few years later as you pretend to be a woman who makes men wait. The bullshit is being called because men have no reason to change no matter what all those self serving agenda-driven articles state.

    Be very very afraid…

    .

  • Abbot

    “Men simply don’t want to be a check mark on the way to kids.”

    Women are getting a wake up call. Men are NOT accommodating. Men do not take a “partner” view – they want a woman, not a partner. Partner is a word that feminists stole from the business world and that is quite fitting for feminists. Men will seek a woman and you’re out if you don’t fit the definition.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Eh, if it wasn’t the housing collapse, it would have been something else. The problem is over-financialization of the Western economies and what happens when that sector becomes damaged: since that’s where you inject the money supply, if it isn’t working, you are Fucked with a capital F.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Ana
    I’ve been curious but always forget to ask: What is this trilogy you’re writing about and what genre is it?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    It seems like men are putting an awful amount of pressure on women to hunt for husbands when a great deal of success in finding a compatible mate is left up to chance. Why are women being blamed for something they don’t have absolute control over?

    I don’t know Sassy all the women I know with dating issues, not marrying or divorced seem to share certain traits and are likely to be blind to “red flags” if the guy is hot enough. I really don’t think is so out of the control of the woman more like how much are they willing to invest on finding a right partner in matters of time, money, and personal adjustments. But most of them are “tied up” on getting certain man on certain way and not moving on from that no matter how many times they get burned, YMMV.

  • Abbot

    “the housing collapse would have been avoided if A) women hadn’t gotten a taste of full employment during WWII; and B) the pill hadn’t been developed in 1960″

    Along with a bunch of other collapses

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve been curious but always forget to ask: What is this trilogy you’re writing about and what genre is it?

    Is a YA paranormal romance aimed to women, so you probably won’t be interested. I’m working with a nerdy post modern heroine and using a lot of college hook up culture in the way the romance blooms. Is being really fun. I’m doing the last rewrite and edit and I’m on 92,000 words already I think I’m going to reach almost 100,000 words, I’m having a lot of fun writing it and I think that is a good way to assets that the reader will have a lot of fun. Let’s see if I can get it publish it on due time. Is that enough info? I don’t want to say a lot of details but if you want to know more you can write me at queen.anacaona@gmail. com and I can give you more on private messaging.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Abbot,

    I believe shaming women will either push them further away from the men doing it–the men doing it will only be seen unappealing and bitter. Or push more women to settle therefore, less satisfaction in their marriages, thus, leading to higher rates of divorce.

    Ana,

    I rarely if ever see or hear single women attempting to shame married women but I see and hear a lot of the reverse. I agree no one is guaranteed a partner.

    Leap of a Beta,

    It use to be the norm for a husband to be ten years or more than his wife. That was the case for most Baby Boomers and generations that came before them. My mother was married by the age of 21 and my father was in his thirties. The thing was, back then men were out establishing themselves financially and exploring their options with women (known as “sowing their wild oats”) before settling down.

    What we see today are men that have been feminized and women that have musculinized by femininism. Women are being encouraged more than ever to establish themselves financially and to get more out of life and there is an enormous amount of pressure to do so. As well as, getting married and having a family. But it can be hard to have those things simultaneously so sometimes you may have to do it in two parts or sacrifice one for the other. I have felt this pressure since college.

    Now, most men appear to be afraid of going out and exploring their options with women because “oh, my god, they might reject me” but instead of owning up to this, it has become better to complain and make excuses and assign blame. If more men were out “sowing their wild oats” like normal men use to, they would not sit around judging women for having lives before they met them because they would have had similar life experiences.

    If a guy meets a woman who does not have a similar sexual history as he does he can simply walk away, right? There is nothing stopping men from exploring their options too. I believe their inability to so is the cause of all the anger and bitterness towards women. It is not women’s fault that they are not putting in the effort needed to get laid when they want to.

    Another thing, I don’t believe that men are angry with women for getting advanced degrees and delaying marriage. What they are really pissed about is that they don’t have easy access to sex with most women which would require them having to step up.

    Liza, the troll

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Liza
    “What we see today are men that have been feminized and women that have musculinized by femininism.”

    I agree with almost everything you said, especially this.

    It’s that reason that men, and I’ll caveat this by saying men who are confident and have atleast a scrap of masculinity (IE – not most of them), are out dealing with this instead of bitching. Even with work yesterday, I approached and pulled the numbers of three women just going to/from work and on my break. I doubt any of them would call me back if I called – two ended up having boyfriends and one was in Chicago for the day from Milwaukee. But that’s just part of the game and playing your odds. I’ll also say I’m damn proud, because thats more numbers in a day than I usually get in a week or two. I’m much better at spontaneous dates or venue changes.

    Anyways, yes. Being a man who is actively pursuing women, I have no sympathy for women that don’t do the same. I don’t put my life on hold for women, but I make time to find them. It’s a simple conversation as you’re commuting, or approaching a girl or two on a night you’re out and having a good time anyways. I still work, pursue my dreams, and I don’t get why women find it so unrealistic that I expect them to put in a little bit of time every week to enjoy yourself in a place where men will approach and talk to you.

    It’s like going to the gym. You put in a couple days a week for long term happiness and health.

  • Abbot

    “I believe shaming women will either push them further away from the men doing it–the men doing it will only be seen unappealing and bitter.”

    How EXACTLY are men shaming women especially any type of so-called shaming that is actually being heard and considered by women. Good luck. Nobody has ever provided an answer.

    “women that have musculinized by femininism”

    Does this breed of women have any appeal to men? Its hard to believe there are not other options even in the US

    “Women are being encouraged more than ever…”

    By whom EXACTLY? Such statements are often made with no substantiation.

    Yeah, all the shaming and encouraging by a fleet of boogeymen!

    “most men appear to be afraid of going out and exploring their options with women”

    Sadly true. Something like fewer than 20% of Americans have a US Passport. US women do not want that stat to change, for sure.

    “If more men were out “sowing their wild oats” like normal men use to, they would not sit around judging women for having lives before they met them because they would have had similar life experiences.”

    Again, EXACTLY how are men judging? Hmmm? And you can count on nearly all man, stud or otherwise, to not commit to such women. That is how normal men were then and are now.

    “If a guy meets a woman who does not have a similar sexual history as he does he can simply walk away, right?”

    After breakfast, for sure.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    “After breakfast, for sure.”

    Made me laugh. And want a sammich.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Leap,

    So, you have been working on yourself and making an effort to put yourself out there. You will be a lot happier via your efforts. That is what more men today should be doing in order to recapture their musculinity. I guess this is what Game is attempting to do for men.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Liza, 310

    Troll indeed. Most of my disappointment, not anger, comes from the knowledge that guys marked with red flags still get easy access to sex. It stings when women, whom you know have a brain and would not give into deceit, go for these men. At the end of the day, it is their choice and I respect that. I would be heavily disappointed if one of my sisters would pursue a shady man. Whereas you place the connotation on sex, I place it on commitment.

    The eyes are set on the future, and when the doubt is seeded that a woman you (seriously) date might have been “used” by a player/cad/… it crashes the motivation to work for said relationship. In the view of men, women are no longer “not guilty until proven otherwise”. Risks like divorce forces men to be wary about girlfriends, fiancees, … they need reassurance, and feminist media shames them from that behavior.

    Whereas a share of life choices were made to support a potential long term relationship, they may now be rewired to self interest (e.g. MGTOW). However, even when rerouting goals, men still come into contact with women each day. The status of that group in Western countries is argued to be rather negative. There exist forums with people complaining about their bosses at work, women complaining about cads, teenagers complaining about parents. Avoiding relationships does not magically protect us from irritating behavior. Aside from the stories about unwanted divorce, many focus on day to day encounters.

  • Abbot

    “That is what more men today should be doing in order to recapture their musculinity”

    Masculinity implies self respect and being the pillar of your community. That is not possible when being seen with, let alone touch, a walking petri dish disguised as a woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Abbot

      Masculinity implies self respect and being the pillar of your community. That is not possible when being seen with, let alone touch, a walking petri dish disguised as a woman.

      Indeed. See my new post!

  • Abbot

    “The eyes are set on the future, and when the doubt is seeded that a woman you (seriously) date might have been “used” by a player/cad/… it crashes the motivation to work for said relationship.”

    That is why no man should waste his precious time taking such women seriously. Its only a matter of time, as in soon, before this subject is discussed more openly [that is, less taboo] and boy is that going to throw a shockwave across female America.

  • Mireille

    Better read that nonsense than be blind!
    @Abbott, aren’t shaming women as well? What would those “be very, very afraid” stand for then? Are they destined to women because you’re envious of their access on the SMP or are you addressing men by reinforcing their paranoia/paralysis ? Clearly not productive!
    I agree with Lizz wholeheartedly. I’m probably what the men around here would consider the “good candidate” regarding all their criteria, but really why would I waste all that goodness with bitter men who have been so burnt out by some supposed “over educated masculinized sluts”? Someone tell me! All those bitter speech don’t show generosity and strength, qualities I always look for in Men I’m interested in because these are qualities and values I want to transmit to my future kids.
    Also I call bullshit on “men want a woman, not a partner!” . You mean until the bills come and suddenly “women don’t understand the pressures WE men are under to provide”. This is how you end up getting a new stove for your birthday.
    Lastly, lots of men prefer to wait well into their 30s to marry as well, not because women their age don’t want to settle, but because they, themselves don’t want to settle as well, if not for financial and career reasons. I’m 29 and when I say the words marriage and children, I’m told men would run if I tell them that and men my age tell me they’d like to settle around 35; I don’t have that kind of time and won’t engage in meaningless relationships in the meanwhile so now I guess I have to raise the bar to men in their 40s as well. However we all know the male sex drive being what it is, guys don’t sit around waiting for miss right. So no one really makes a priority of coupling, you have to stop blaming women for your inability to adapt.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “Come on you are a scientist right? All you need to to is study how people that end up married and happy ended there and compare with single cat ladies. Men are not shy about what they find worth it of commitment. Is not that hard.”

    Yes, I am a scientist. I’ve compared married ladies to single ladies and nothing lines up. There is no pattern and nothing makes sense. There appears to be a lot of luck involved. Plus, I am sure that given how different we all are as people, what works for one happily married woman may not work for me. Yes, it is that hard.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    I don’t know Sassy all the women I know with dating issues, not marrying or divorced seem to share certain traits and are likely to be blind to “red flags” if the guy is hot enough. I really don’t think is so out of the control of the woman more like how much are they willing to invest on finding a right partner in matters of time, money, and personal adjustments. But most of them are “tied up” on getting certain man on certain way and not moving on from that no matter how many times they get burned, YMMV.

    Women that fail to get out and stay out of bad relationships have a controllable reason for their difficulties in dating. I’m not talking about them, however.

    I think that almost everyone knows of at least one woman who appears to have it all. They are attractive, feminine, intelligent, stable, etc, yet they are still single. These are the women who are most likely to be met with dumbfounded expressions when the fact that they are single is divulged.

    I’m one of those women. I’m single, yet everyone I know who is close to me wonders why? I do date, but I just haven’t met a good match for myself yet. I’ve done everything that I should do to maximize my chances of meeting and keeping someone special, but it’s not guaranteed. As I told Leap of a Beta earlier, there is a very real possibility that I may end up alone, despite all of my efforts.

    I think my way of approaching dating is in the best interest of myself and men. I want a man that I truly desire. I see no point in stringing a man along or settling for a sub par match just to say that I am married. That makes a man into an item on a checklist, which is what they don’t want. If I can’t find someone that I truly desire, I’ll just stay single. It’s the most noble way to approach dating, in my opinion.

    I’d rather not just marry any man who will have me for the ability to call myself a wife. People who have been able to find the person they truly desire are lucky, very lucky indeed.

  • Sassy6519

    Yes, I am a scientist. I’ve compared married ladies to single ladies and nothing lines up. There is no pattern and nothing makes sense. There appears to be a lot of luck involved.

    1000 times this.

    Aside from you and I, I haven’t heard anyone talk about this aspect of dating. A good portion of a person’s ability to find and keep a suitable mate is due to luck/chance.

    Even if a person does everything that they are theoretically supposed to do to attract a mate, there’s no guarantee that they’ll succeed. Most of the women that I know who are married got lucky. The women that I know who are single aren’t drastically different from the married women. Some of the single women surpass the married women in looks, femininity, and other attributes, yet are still single.

    I just hate the air of supposed superiority or tactical advantage that some married women have. They think they are significantly different from single women, but they aren’t. They were just very lucky.

    I can only hope that I end up that lucky as well.

  • Abbot

    “envious of their access on the SMP ”

    Read: access to always willing cock. That has to be an immense challenge for women. Congratulations are in order.

    “What would those “be very, very afraid” stand for…

    For starters
    http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/safe-sex

    And some minor concerns
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07399339109515955#preview

    “addressing men by reinforcing their paranoia/paralysis ?”

    That suggests clearly that they have paranoia. Now, why is that? Why did their grandfathers not have such a mess on their hands?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @A Definite Beta Guy
    “All else being equal, you’re treating us as a lower priority, this other hypothetical girl is treating us as a higher priority. Obviously we would prefer the girl who treats us a higher priority.”

    But in each individual woman’s case, what is the true spirit of that prioritization? From my own point of view, this sounds a little dangerous: a girl who looks to latch on to a guy right away instead of stabilizing herself first. When I have convos with women who prioritize marriage over education and career, they half-jokingly say something along the lines of “who needs to be a career woman when you can take half of his sh*t after you get a divorce?” Which makes me wonder why a more stable woman woud be less appealing to a lot of men.

  • Abbot

    “a girl who looks to latch on to a guy”

    High priority is not a latch. It means the man is high on the long list of priorities. That doe-eyed girl who is ga ga over you is such a rush. A man has not lived until he experiences that. It is long lost on a promiscuous woman. Men know what to do.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Leap of a Beta
    “I am, by necessity to the discussion, speaking in generalities. You being a woman in a STEM field is already a rare thing,”

    …and an absolute b0ner-killer. lol “Biology teacher” seems to get more positive results. Seriously, I’ve started telling guys I’m a biology teacher…and I cringe behind the smile, because I know I’m watering down my job, but it seems to work. Although “nurse” might work even better. :)

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Sassy
    ” The women that I know who are single aren’t drastically different from the married women.”

    Dunno. As a guy there’s often….. just a sense that someone is relationship material or not. It doesn’t mean its true – I still look for red flags. But usually after 2-4 hours of spending time with someone I know whether I can stand them or not, and after 7-10 I start to know whether I’d be interested in actually knowing who they are to determine if they belong on the Relationship ladder, sex ladder, or friend ladder.

    I will say that, as a guy, there are many women who originally seem like a great prospect. Fun, friendly, exciting, attractive, and kind. Yet around hour five they just… lose their sexuality. Its like they don’t even know what to do with their bodies when it comes to dancing, moving, kissing…. really anything feminine.

    “I think my way of approaching dating is in the best interest of myself and men. I want a man that I truly desire. I see no point in stringing a man along or settling for a sub par match just to say that I am married. That makes a man into an item on a checklist, which is what they don’t want.”

    Not at all. That’s knowing you want human companionship and actually know what you want out of it. Item on a checklist is something a woman wants but either doesn’t care about the particulars of who fits it or wants the ‘perfect man’ that is completely unrealistic. Both are ones I’d classify as checklist outlooks.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    The relationship skills you learned in your prior relationships will have been tailored towards the men you met, and quite frankly might not be all that relevant anyways because you were in fake relationships that you knew wouldn’t last because you weren’t looking for a husband. So we will have to work past all your old relationship baggage, too.

    Apparently, even being monogamous is enough to get women tossed into the “undesirable” pool. The logical conclusion seems to be that women shouldn’t have a sex life at all, unless they’re certain they’ve found a potential husband. Who’s to say that most women aren’t doing this already? Maybe they’re in relationships with men they believe will lead to marriage, and are acting accordingly.

    Anyway, I’m not sure how you judge a woman’s relationship to be “fake” without proof positive that her heart isn’t in it. A one-sided sham relationship like that certainly isn’t fair to the other person who might be taking it seriously. But don’t guys play this game, too, perhaps as often?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      you were in fake relationships that you knew wouldn’t last because you weren’t looking for a husband.

      I agree with Megaman, no one has the right to judge the relationship of someone else, much less call it fake. The only people who know what a relationship is are the two people in it, and even then there can be misunderstandings.

      I can say with 100% certainty that I learned and benefited enormously from the relationships I had when I wasn’t looking for a husband. In fact, I was never explicitly looking for a husband. I am also 100% sure that had I married any of the men I was involved with prior to my husband (I was never tempted to do so), I would now be divorced.

      Americans are marrying in their late 20s. It’s better for them to have relationships before they marry than to be alone for the 15 years between puberty and marriage. Virgin brides of 21 are rare and will only become moreso, though they were never the majority – it’s estimated that 50% of the Pilgrims had premarital sex!

  • Mike C

    I don’t recall who exactly made what comments, and I don’t have the inclination to go back through all the comments but here’s the thing…

    Women in their 20s should feel every right to pursue whatever life objectives and mission they want. Their life…their choices, and I think trying to shame a women into a relationship is silly.

    That said, here is the issue. If you as a 20-something woman don’t prioritize finding a husband, then you LOSE ALL RIGHT to complain one bit at all in your 30s about not being able to “find a good man to commit”. The fact is you squandered the prime growing season so you have no right to bitch about the lacking in the harvest season.

    I’ve got experience with this in my real life. My sister will be 34 this years. Motherhood and marriage are goals for her. I don’t discuss it with her much, but she talks to my fiancee about it. She is definitely on edge about the lack of progress in this area, and constantly complaining that “guys don’t want to commit” or “aren’t looking for something serious”. I feel badly for her, but the fact is she squandered her 20s in terms of achieving this objective, but she does have a PhD and a high income career. She also traveled alot in her 20s.

    The bottom line is you can’t have it both ways. Live your 20s however you want but seriously you’ve got to live with the consequences of those decisions and then just STFU in your 30s is the same opportunity set in terms of marrige, husbands, family is no longer available.

    Lastly, thanks to all who offered up the well wishes.

  • Windy

    ”Avoiding relationships does not magically protect us from irritating behavior. Aside from the stories about unwanted divorce, many focus on day to day encounters.”

    I beg to differ. Friend of mine got a girlfriend. His girlfriend used him, dumped him, traded him for the bigger, better deal. All of this after 2 years of dating. They never did anything because she wasn’t ”ready”.

    4 years have passed. He hasn’t talked to a woman since(besides the occasional interaction he has with women in his work) and he’s incredibly happy.

    Inspired by his results I took have cut contact with women. Last time I talked or looked at a woman, I think it was at the beginning of 2006. Unless I absolutely have to talk to a woman I will completely ignore her and make it impossible for a conversation to happen.

    Results? No drama. No obligations. No feelings of loneliness. No sexual frustration. As a beta I wasn’t getting any already, LOL, and by removing women’s sexual power over me I managed to become, by power of will, asexual. Porn is another female-based product I’ve boycotted. Why the heck should women prosper from my sexual desire?

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Royale
    “…and an absolute b0ner-killer.”

    Weird…. I’ve never had a negative reaction to a woman’s profession unless its something like gender studies, anthropology, or lawyer. Few professions get a boost though either. I will have to admit that teaching is definitely one of them. Nurse actually isn’t, its a quick trip to the sex ladder unless you’ve shown you’re not like all the crazy nurses I’ve known that have tons of issues, take advantage of ‘misplaced’ drugs, and generally overindulge in parties/alcohol/sex/drugs. Usually though, profession is a neutral thing.

    But then, unless you plan on wining and dining a younger man in Chicago, I’m not the one you have to worry about.

  • Mike C

    Post grad women seem as if the majority of them have a ‘checklist’ of things to accomplish in life to prove they are successful and have shown our currently super feminist influenced society they have what it takes. First comes Undergrad and having her fun. Then a few years in the work force, or peace corps, or traveling Europe, or something else. Or maybe they skip that checklist and go right for the post grad check. Then Husband. Then kids. Then raising them while being a career mom, or divorce, or whatever, something.

    ****Men simply don’t want to be a check mark on the way to kids.****

    Yes, and I think many men can smell this on a woman if he is just the next on a checklist of to dos….Item XI…find husband and get married and spit out kids.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Megaman
    “Anyway, I’m not sure how you judge a woman’s relationship to be “fake” without proof positive that her heart isn’t in it.”

    There’s an easy way, though its hard to do. You try and get an idea if there are patterns in the kind of past relationships she’s had. Were they all the same, and all bad for her, thus showing she has shitty ability to learn from mistakes? Would you fit that pattern or would you break it, and what are her reasons for either? If she’s dated a lot of people like you, was it because you fit what she actually wants and it was the small details and events in her life that made the previous men not work?

    You’re white knighting women’s sexual strategy of serial monogamy and ignoring the fact that women are very easily able to say that they felt their heart was in a relationship….. until it wasn’t. As if she didn’t enjoy herself and gain satisfaction from the relationship the whole time, but the only defining part of it for her was the tragic breakup. It’s over simplification, denies the woman any responsibility for any of her choices, and makes the simple fact that she dated one man at a time exclusively but some how was unable to find the ‘right guy’ (poor little her! such a delicate little victim) into some heart wrenching, normal, victim hood to save her from.

    Screw that.

    “If you as a 20-something woman don’t prioritize finding a husband, then you LOSE ALL RIGHT to complain one bit at all in your 30s about not being able to “find a good man to commit”. The fact is you squandered the prime growing season so you have no right to bitch about the lacking in the harvest season.”

    +1.

    You can still lose at the odds, and be justifiably upset. But if you don’t participate, are you really surprised when no one wants you to win with a last minute hail Mary when the rest of us have been sweating and bleeding for years?

  • Mike C

    Eh, if it wasn’t the housing collapse, it would have been something else. The problem is over-financialization of the Western economies and what happens when that sector becomes damaged: since that’s where you inject the money supply, if it isn’t working, you are Fucked with a capital F.

    A Definite Beta Guy, you might find this an interesting read

    http://www.robertsinn.com/2012/06/02/the-overproduction-of-financial-assets/

    Very few people realize just how bad the underlying structural rot is. 30-50 years from now, this period from 2008 through 2020 will be seen as tumultous for the global economic/monetary system. Read through to the Barrons article…the biggest storm is yet to come.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Mike

    I haven’t said it anywhere else, cause I figured it’d be flooded in a deluge, but congrats man. That’s freaking awesome. If we ever end up connecting in Chicago I’ll buy you a beer. Ontop of it being great, you’ve provided a ton of great comments around that have helped me, plus the story of sitting with her parents was priceless.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I rarely if ever see or hear single women attempting to shame married women but I see and hear a lot of the reverse. I agree no one is guaranteed a partner.

    Aren’t you and introverted? How often do you hang out with married women vs single ones. Is likely that you are in a social bubble since I had seen a lot of shaming. There is a reason I was terrified of being a SHAM after my baby is born. There is also the whispers , in the other thread we were talking about fat shaming you know how many people subtly thank me for not being fat and compliment me on being tiny while looking at an overweight woman with reproving looks? Like too many. The few times I had been around single women not wearing my wedding rings seeing a woman with more than two kids or young and with kids elicits a lot of similar comments “what a shame” “Does she thinks she is baby making machine” now that I’m obviously pregnant I don’t get that much, but yeah. I also talk to a lot of people and visit all sorts to blogs and websites. Me thinks the ratio in English speaking of traditional shame is higher than slut shame. Funny enough is the other way around in Spanish.

    Yes, I am a scientist. I’ve compared married ladies to single ladies and nothing lines up. There is no pattern and nothing makes sense. There appears to be a lot of luck involved.

    I would like to take a look at that data if you don’t mind. Links?

    Maybe they’re in relationships with men they believe will lead to marriage, and are acting accordingly.

    Given that articles about women thinking the bad boy will be a good father and husband for themselves although not for other women. I think many of them might be doing this and not realizing it till is too late, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    LOB,

    Thanks bro. Seriously, we got to meet up sometime…I’m less than 40 minutes from downtown. I actually proposed downtown…went to a kick ass restaurant over on Dearborn….and haha I wanted to do it at Buckingham fountain but the damn lights were off when we walked over.

    Spot on right in comment 333….not sure if you caught my comment over at DS’s.

    you’ve provided a ton of great comments around that have helped me,

    I’m sincerely glad. At the end of the day, the thing I always feel good about is I know I’ve been able to offer some guys good perspective based on my life experience. I know I’ve actually offered good perspective to women as well for those who listened. There are a handful of guys who took the red pill long after me yet really have taken it further in terms of deeper thoughts and incisive reflections. You and Badger are really killing it both in blog posts and comments. I’m learning from you guys.

  • Mireille

    Do some of you even read yourselves?
    Women should:

    “Actively look for a relationship (warning: there will be a test) but not sleep around and have a low count (warning: there will be a test).”

    Or
    “Prioritize finding a husband ( VERY important) but don’t make it a check list item ( because check lists are not made of those PRIORITIES and VERY IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO).”

    Contradictory much?

  • Mike C

    Now, most men appear to be afraid of going out and exploring their options with women because “oh, my god, they might reject me” but instead of owning up to this, it has become better to complain and make excuses and assign blame. If more men were out “sowing their wild oats” like normal men use to, they would not sit around judging women for having lives before they met them because they would have had similar life experiences.

    If a guy meets a woman who does not have a similar sexual history as he does he can simply walk away, right? ****There is nothing stopping men from exploring their options too. I believe their inability to so is the cause of all the anger and bitterness towards women. It is not women’s fault that they are not putting in the effort needed to get laid when they want to.****

    Are you new here?

    I think you mean well…but the part I bolded and asterisked reveals an ignorance of underlying conditions that is stupifying. I can only shake my head in wonderment. I suspect some guys reading this who are putting in astronomical effort with nothing to show for it would probably have a stroke upon reading this.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “I would like to take a look at that data if you don’t mind. Links?”

    In your earlier post, you told me to observe women myself and to compare them, which is basically personal experience and unpublished data. If you have some published objective data that compares the personalities and characteristics of single vs. married women, I’d be happy to take a look. Thanks.

  • Mike C

    “Actively look for a relationship (warning: there will be a test) but not sleep around and have a low count (warning: there will be a test).”

    Or
    “Prioritize finding a husband ( VERY important) but don’t make it a check list item ( because check lists are not made of those PRIORITIES and VERY IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO).”

    Contradictory much?

    No, no contradiction. Here is the fact, and women like Hope and Anacoana I’m sure can attest to #1.

    1. If a woman dates WITH PURPOSE…that purpose being to find a husband, and screens and filters well, looks for the right types of men in the right venues, she should be able to find a good husband type guy BEFORE her number gets ridiculously high, and I would define that as roughly crossing from single to double digits. If a woman spends her entire 20s dating “for fun” and to kill time than getting out with low numbers is unrealistic. The crux of the issue is few young women are dating with that purpose in mind.

    2. There is a massive difference between something being a priority and an item on a checklist. In fact, they are contradictory. A checklist item implies something trivial to tick off…something you haven’t given alot of mental effort and reflection to . A priority should be something you’ve given a ton of mental thought, introspection, and reflection to.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Mike
    “Thanks bro. Seriously, we got to meet up sometime…I’m less than 40 minutes from downtown. I actually proposed downtown…went to a kick ass restaurant over on Dearborn….and haha I wanted to do it at Buckingham fountain but the damn lights were off when we walked over.”

    Shoot me an email at leapofabeta@gmail.com. We’ll make it happen.

    As for down town…. nice. What restaurant did you go to? I don’t eat much downtown, so I don’t know many of the good places to go down there yet. I do love hanging out in Millennium and watching the proposals though. There’s been a flurry with this nice weather. I’ve seen some touching ones and some hilarious ones. One of the touching ones was watching this big, masculine white guy romantically escorting this little asian soon-to-be fiance around. She was totally clueless but me and the girl I was sitting on a bench with were having a blast watching photographers scurry around trying not to be seen while also seeing the proposal.

    “not sure if you caught my comment over at DS’s.”

    Haha. Yeah. I did.

    “You and Badger are really killing it both in blog posts and comments. I’m learning from you guys.”

    Dude. Even just being compared to Badger is crazy. I put the effort into this shit, but no matter how much time or effort I put into it…. There’s always more to read, more to think about, write, to do. It’s all just self help for myself, then writing down my thoughts and experiences. A lot of the time I feel like a ‘keyboard jockey’ even though I put as much of this into practice as time/money/energy lets me.

    But then, maybe thats because I don’t really have any self defined goals besides one that’s open ended – growth. I’m just enjoying the ride.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Ana,

    Okay, I was not aware that married women were facing that kind of ridicule and shaming. Single women who are participating in that behaviour are clearly unhappy with their lives.

    On another note, I am glad that Susan had decided to take a break from HUS this weekend. Good for her.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Mike C
    “If a woman dates WITH PURPOSE…”

    Wait a minute. Not to be facetious, but doesn’t that scare guys? It’s an excellent filter technique for getting rid of the cads, but how can that get a guy to want to marry you?

    Congratulations on your marriage. I’ve just started reading and responding at HUS. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    If there’s going to be a Chicago meet-up, put me on the list.

    Anyways,

    @Liza
    I’m not going into 90% of your post. I’ll leave that to other people. What does need to be said is that, yes, men are going to be bitter. You are being extremely immature about this. Every single person is going to have emotional baggage. Every. Single. One.

    Also, no, having matching sexual experience, or even MORE sexual experience, will not make a man interested in you. A couple threads okay I described how utterly vile it makes a man feel if his woman has been “Used” by a Player/Cad/etc. Many men agreed. It doesn’t matter if your N is 1, 2, or 3, and his is 300. This is pretty damn deep.

    Jason, I think, dumped his GF for having too many partners, and he had more than twice as many as her.

    And one of the previous posts went into great detail to show that most men are NOT attracted to the women who are into STRs. Period.

    Now, you said you prefer relationship sex, right? I prefer relationship everything. I prefer relationship dinners, relationship cruises, relationship family events, relationship waking up in the morning, etc. I have very little desire to “sow my wild oats.”

    What people in this thread are telling you is that, yes, you are under a lot of pressure to do so many things and it is very easy and socially acceptable to put off finding a husband.

    But you are probably making a mistake. Your ideal husband is NOT going to be a limit on you: He is going to SUPPORT you in your endeavors and life objectives. The only thing your ideal husband is going to stop you from doing is having sex with other men.

    @ Megaman
    “Apparently, even being monogamous is enough to get women tossed into the “undesirable” pool. The logical conclusion seems to be that women shouldn’t have a sex life at all, unless they’re certain they’ve found a potential husband. Who’s to say that most women aren’t doing this already? Maybe they’re in relationships with men they believe will lead to marriage, and are acting accordingly.”
    Yes, being serially monogamous is a BAD thing. It’s not promiscuity, but it’s not as good as ONLY dating men that you are serious about and ONLY having sex with them.
    You said in a prior post that it’s okay to go years without getting laid, so why are you giving a free pass to women on this?
    As for whether I can judge this: what’s there to judge? The women openly STATE this, because, again, they think it is their birth-right, and don’t see how it can possibly be wrong.

    @ Mike C

    Reading article now, thanks.

    @ Royale

    “But in each individual woman’s case, what is the true spirit of that prioritization? From my own point of view, this sounds a little dangerous: a girl who looks to latch on to a guy right away instead of stabilizing herself first. When I have convos with women who prioritize marriage over education and career, they half-jokingly say something along the lines of “who needs to be a career woman when you can take half of his sh*t after you get a divorce?” Which makes me wonder why a more stable woman woud be less appealing to a lot of men.”

    I agree. We are playing a dangerous game here. Maybe this can be screened by asking the potential girl about her future plans, her job and career plans, etc. If a girl has an action plan and is taking actual steps on it, has a life outside of me, that’s a good sign.

    More importantly: I think being a college graduate is a pretty good screen in and of itself. She’s got self-respect and drive enough to finish a 4 year degree, less likely she’s just going to sponge off of me. But, again, I’ll be wary, and look for other signs that she’s just using me as a meal ticket.

    I’d rather take my chances in that pool than the older pool, though. And I’d also like to add that an advanced degree or plans for one can very much be a boner-enhancer for me, but I’m an odd guy.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Liza, @Anacaona

    I’ve seen equally trecherous shaming from both sides. Single women who feel that life has cheated them out of having marriage & kids, and married women who feel regretful about being “stuck” with an irreversible life decision. Shots are being fired from both sides.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Mike C,

    Women in their 20s should feel every right to pursue whatever life objectives and mission they want. Their life…their choices, and I think trying to shame a women into a relationship is silly.

    Agreed. This is what I was saying above.

    That said, here is the issue. If you as a 20-something woman don’t prioritize finding a husband, then you LOSE ALL RIGHT to complain one bit at all in your 30s about not being able to “find a good man to commit”. The fact is you squandered the prime growing season so you have no right to bitch about the lacking in the harvest season.

    I agree with this, too. Complainers on both sides of the fence (i.e. the men in their 20’s and the women in their 30’s) aren’t helping themselves one bit. Nobody wants to be with a complainer. Their options may be meager, but they’re only limiting things even more with the complaints.

    The bottom line is you can’t have it both ways. Live your 20s however you want but seriously you’ve got to live with the consequences of those decisions and then just STFU in your 30s is the same opportunity set in terms of marrige, husbands, family is no longer available.

    +1. On the other hand, men in their 20’s (and at any period of their lives for that matter) need to start living the lives that they want, whether that life includes learning to pick up girls and have casual sex, holding out for a relationship, working their asses off for a high status position in a company, or travelling to remote parts of the world. I see a lot of “nice guys” just boxed in by the expectations of others: parents, girlfriends, wives, the media, society. Men have to start creating their own expectations for themselves and living the lives they want without worrying about who they are (or are not) pleasing in the process.

    Lastly, thanks to all who offered up the well wishes.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Mike C,

    I saw that you’re engaged. Congrats. Hope everything works out well for the two of you.

  • http://stagedreality.wordpress.com Leap of a Beta

    @ Royale
    “Wait a minute. Not to be facetious, but doesn’t that scare guys? It’s an excellent filter technique for getting rid of the cads, but how can that get a guy to want to marry you?”

    No, not at all.

    If you came right out and SAID THAT on the first date, or even the sixth, then it would. However, it should be the subtext to all your dating decisions. You should absolutely enjoy a relationship and let the person know it, but you should also make your intentions clear through your actions first and, if needed, words as well. If you find out that you don’t like someone as a potential marriage, you put the breaks on it, then and there.

    Its actually why I have a great respect for Sassy and the way that she’s approached dating, atleast as far as I know from what she’s told us here. She’s given guys chances, made allowances, and set them up with an opportunity for success instead of failure from the start. Then, if it doesn’t work, she cuts out and is honest about it. At least it sounds like she is to herself and that this honest has helped her grow more aware of her needs in a relationship.

    Me and Sassy might differ on minor details of healthy relationship dynamics – usually when my priorities on what I want from a woman come into play – but not often. And usually when we do it turns into a fun game of ‘who can give the other the most shit’ in witty word games, which are thoroughly enjoyable.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Shots are being fired from both sides.

    Maybe is just old plain cattiness I discuss this things here but outside HUS I really don’t tell women in real life what to do, I do try to sprinkle some memes about how bad the gender relationships are and see how that works. I believe more on seeding for this particular culture at least. But given that this is the blog most women find by googling “Why I don’t have a boyfriend” I think is important to tell them that is not as out of control as they think, unless their vaginas are making the choices of course.

    Wait a minute. Not to be facetious, but doesn’t that scare guys? It’s an excellent filter technique for getting rid of the cads, but how can that get a guy to want to marry you?

    Here is some research on men that marry, which is the out of control part is my guess. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3088165#.T8v_lVJdnSg

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “Men have to start creating their own expectations for themselves and living the lives they want without worrying about who they are (or are not) pleasing in the process.”

    Abso-fucking-lutely

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If you came right out and SAID THAT on the first date, or even the sixth, then it would.

    It depends on the man. I think hubby knew from the beginning I was interviewing him for the job of my husband as he was interviewing me for the job of his wife and I use the word job in a joking way. I doesn’t sound romantic but knowing that we were both in the same page was actually really bonding and I also knew that if any of us saw glaring red flags we at least would be honest to each other. It helps that we are both crazy, patient, honest, hate dating and always did and have the same wicked sense of humor, except for sarcasm that I don’t get, and similar “You don’t have to make me happy I can do that myself but don’t make me unhappy by doing XYZ” was one of our first “are we really going to get married” talk and we both honor our commitments, YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Leap of a Beta

    Its actually why I have a great respect for Sassy and the way that she’s approached dating, atleast as far as I know from what she’s told us here. She’s given guys chances, made allowances, and set them up with an opportunity for success instead of failure from the start. Then, if it doesn’t work, she cuts out and is honest about it. At least it sounds like she is to herself and that this honest has helped her grow more aware of her needs in a relationship.

    Me and Sassy might differ on minor details of healthy relationship dynamics – usually when my priorities on what I want from a woman come into play – but not often. And usually when we do it turns into a fun game of ‘who can give the other the most shit’ in witty word games, which are thoroughly enjoyable.

    Awwwwwwwww!

    Leap of a Beta, have my imaginary and purely hypothetical children. My body is ready!!

  • Abbot

    “having matching sexual experience, or even MORE sexual experience, will not make a man interested in you. A couple threads okay I described how utterly vile it makes a man feel if his woman has been “Used” by a Player/Cad/etc. Many men agreed. It doesn’t matter if your N is 1, 2, or 3, and his is 300. ”

    That has got to be the most infuriating fact when women read or hear it. A man can’t put his heart into it with that knowledge in mind. A man, most especially these days, wants a special woman to love and boast to his friends and family about. Women should not denigrate a man for feeling this way; just accept it and hope that another is willing to suck it up. Feminists claim up and down that there is no man-shortage…prove em right.

  • Mike C

    @Mike C
    “If a woman dates WITH PURPOSE…”

    Wait a minute. Not to be facetious, but doesn’t that scare guys? It’s an excellent filter technique for getting rid of the cads, but how can that get a guy to want to marry you?

    Royale,

    Thanks…actually engagement…marriage is going to be fall 2013.

    To your question…what LOB said.

    I think there is a substantial difference between dating with purpose and going out there and sort of reeking of desperation to find a husband. In my view, with the former you are dating with intent, but you can still be light, playful, have fun, etc. The point would be to rapidly disqualify any guy who is not husband material. You wouldn’t have a boyfriend just to have a boyfriend as a status marker. I think the women who are in high numbers of serial monogamy just sort of float aimlessly from one guy to the next without any purpose.

  • Mike C

    I can say with 100% certainty that I learned and benefited enormously from the relationships I had when I wasn’t looking for a husband. In fact, I was never explicitly looking for a husband. I am also 100% sure that had I married any of the men I was involved with prior to my husband (I was never tempted to do so), I would now be divorced.

    Susan,

    This is very sensible up to a point. Being in a relationship is a learning and growth experience in and of itself. That said, there is a big difference between getting a few relationships “under your belt” that for one reason or another aren’t going to end in marriage versus the woman who rotates to a new boyfriend every 6-12 months, and finds herself at 30 having had 10-20 boyfriends. The latter reflects a lack of discernment or being way too picky or possibly both.

    Americans are marrying in their late 20s. It’s better for them to have relationships before they marry than to be alone for the 15 years between puberty and marriage.

    Interestingly, in just the last few months I’ve heard increased instances of 22-24 year old woman engaged. Time will tell, but I suspect as this social wave fully progresses you’ll see a reversal to women marrying younger on average.

    Virgin brides of 21 are rare and will only become moreso, though they were never the majority – it’s estimated that 50% of the Pilgrims had premarital sex!

    I think only a super, super small minority of men really care about virgin brides at 21. Of course, there is a huge middle ground in between that extreme and the 30+ year old with double digits.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Interestingly, in just the last few months I’ve heard increased instances of 22-24 year old woman engaged. Time will tell, but I suspect as this social wave fully progresses you’ll see a reversal to women marrying younger on average.

      I think you may be right – I think that would be a very positive development for many reasons. To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that women should have multitudes of boyfriends, but I do reject the claim that relationships before marriage are “fake” and nothing more than an excuse allowing women to be sexually active, i.e. sluts. That is the prevailing philosophy in the manosphere these days.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I’ve seen equally trecherous shaming from both sides. Single women who feel that life has cheated them out of having marriage & kids, and married women who feel regretful about being “stuck” with an irreversible life decision. Shots are being fired from both sides.
    —–
    Royale,

    Yes, I am sure shots are being fired from both sides. However, you and I and ever Ana can agree that single women get it the worst and always have. They have to deal with the double whammy of being un-partnered and dealing with social ostracism.
    .

  • Abbot

    “there is a huge middle ground in between that extreme and the 30+ year old with double digits.”

    Isn’t it interesting that upon hearing men do not want to commit to DDers, these women get all defensive and state that these guys are misogynist weirdos who want virgins as if there is no middle ground whatsoever

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yes, I am sure shots are being fired from both sides. However, you and I and ever Ana can agree that single women get it the worst and always have. They have to deal with the double whammy of being un-partnered and dealing with social ostracism.

    I’m not so sure about that one. In the past I would agree but in modern times there seems to be a celebration of singlehood and wariness at best of motherhood and married women. Just check pop culture and see the difference of less say Desperates Housewives and sex and the city. Just a sample of how people picture each group, YMMV.

  • Esau

    Mireille at 317: but really why would I waste all that goodness with bitter men who have been so burnt out by some supposed “over educated masculinized sluts”? Someone tell me! All those bitter speech don’t show generosity and strength, qualities I always look for in Men I’m interested in because these are qualities and values I want to transmit to my future kids.

    Typical; but the real kicker is the clause preceding:

    I’m probably what the men around here would consider the “good candidate” regarding all their criteria,

    Yeah, you’re just overflowing with the milk of human kindness. Really, how could anyone not appreciate it….

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I can say with 100% certainty that I learned and benefited enormously from the relationships I had when I wasn’t looking for a husband.

    If the ONS don’t disqualify you, then your serial monogamy makes you a BAD prospect for marriage, at least that’s what the general consensus seems the be. I’ll have to muzzle myself with a white knight merit badge before speaking from now on : )

    Anyway, if women want to abstain from sex for longer periods of time, I think that would be a great development. It seems to be happening already, with more virgins and lower N on average than 20 years ago. If guys want women who comport themselves in a certain manner WRT sex and relationships, by all means they should pursue them. That’s what I did, for the most part. They’re going to be from more traditional and conservative backgrounds anyway. I didn’t spend much time worrying about the ones who didn’t meet that standard.

    But pretty much everybody, men and women, like to be in relationships due to the close intimacy and other benefits they bring. Those relationships aren’t necessarily going to lead to marriage, but they don’t have to. I see nothing wrong with them, to be honest. Throw out women who’ve hooked up, or been serially monogamous, or been attracted to the wrong kinds of guys, or fantasized about jerks, or (fill in the blank). The list goes on and on. And the pool shrinks and shrinks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      But pretty much everybody, men and women, like to be in relationships due to the close intimacy and other benefits they bring.

      I’ve wondered about this – a lot of men here say they really don’t need relationships with women for the intimacy, other than sex. They can get their need for that met with their guy friends. This has never made sense to me, because the emotional intimacy that I have with my husband could never translate to a guy-guy relationship. It seems to me that home is the one place where a man is released from constant intrasexual male competition.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona

    Thanks for the article. Although very interesting, all of the text discussed signs of men and women who are likely or unlikely to marry, maybe.

    The only instruction I saw in the entire piece was…
    “To dramatically increase your chances of marrying you must seek out and date the marrying kind.”

    Dramatically increase your chances? This is a non-answer. A chance is not an act. It is a probability. The truth is that you cannot *make* a man marry you. I think that the ones who are fortunate enough to come upon a good marriage would stop acting like luck has nothing to do with the process. Those who think that following a protocol was the direct cause of a man deciding to pop the question need to stop deluding themselves and others.

    Logically, you have complete control over who you interact with, how long you decide to tolerate cads or not, where you hang out, who you hang out with, how presentable you make yourself look, but you cannot *make* a man marry you. If that were true, I’d be married by now.

  • J

    Logically, you have complete control over who you interact with, how long you decide to tolerate cads or not, where you hang out, who you hang out with, how presentable you make yourself look, but you cannot *make* a man marry you.

    There’s some luck involved too.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    “Just check pop culture and see the difference of less say Desperates Housewives and sex and the city. Just a sample of how people picture each group.”

    I never really looked at those shows in terms of them deparaging married women and motherhood. But now that I think of it SATC (I hate Desperate Housewives–complete dreck) was pretty big on doing just that.

  • http://www.thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Logically, you have complete control over who you interact with, how long you decide to tolerate cads or not, where you hang out, who you hang out with, how presentable you make yourself look, but you cannot *make* a man marry you. If that were true, I’d be married by now.
    ——-
    There is always dropping all of your standards and settling.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Logically, you have complete control over who you interact with, how long you decide to tolerate cads or not, where you hang out, who you hang out with, how presentable you make yourself look, but you cannot *make* a man marry you. If that were true, I’d be married by now.

    You then move on from that man till you find one that will. ;)
    I’m sorry but aside from the article, IME I can point out at exactly what are my single friends doing wrong. I tried to tell them but they are a too stubborn to compromise on things. Some of them are a bit more understandable like my friend that can’t just relocate because she lives on a shit hole relationship hell but her duties with her family are too big, although her family is living their lives while sucking her up so she should ditch them, I can see why she can’t, but others is as stupid as “The man that seem to be willing to commit to me, don’t have a smart phone” so yeah. I think the problem is that most women have a “perfect husband” in their heads and they have a hard time adapting to their reality and remembering they are not perfect brides either. When I find a woman that wanting to marry I sincerely think is single for no fault of her own I will be the first one to admit it. So far they all have something that is missing the problem is they can’t see it or they just don’t want to change it.

    And I already told my story of how I fixed a lot of things from taking modeling classes to learn to be more feminine and attractive, to learning how to be a better company (and I asked the person most critical in my life: my mom what could I do to be a better company oh boy did she enjoyed those talks, I don’t think she liked anything about my personality maybe because we are the same) to reading books, to deciding to outsource, to improving my English, to realizing my body language was killing me, to signing up to match.com,nerdpassions,trying e-harmony (they actually rejected me because I was unmatchable :() then landing on sciconnect. I had the rule of moving on from a dating site after three months if nothing happened and the same for the guys I talked to, till I picked my winner, got married, moved 3,000 miles away from home and I’m happy and pregnant now. So yeah it that is luck I think I made my own luck and I don’t think “I’m a special snowflake” so any woman can if she really wants to.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I never really looked at those shows in terms of them deparaging married women and motherhood. But now that I think of it SATC (I hate Desperate Housewives–complete dreck) was pretty big on doing just that.

    I don’t know Sex and the city was weird you had a lot of moments were this women look like losers but they are unable to realize it. It was fun because I wasn’t a fan but I like to stalk fandoms and I remember a big contrast on the women that loved the show and the women that loathed it. They could watch the same episode and come out with entirely different conclusions. It was a good experiment on perception
    Going back to subject
    I think very few shows depict married life as desirable nowadays. I think one of the best married with children couple I saw was in Medium they had issues and three daughters but they were relatively happy and they were depicted as soulmates. Aside from that hard to point most of sitcoms have suffering hot wives tolerating their fat lazy husbands and conspiring with the kids to make sure they don’t do anything too stupid.

  • deti

    “You wouldn’t have a boyfriend just to have a boyfriend as a status marker. I think the women who are in high numbers of serial monogamy just sort of float aimlessly from one guy to the next without any purpose.”

    I think there is a lot of this going on. I also don’t agree they’re necessarily looking for husbands, either.

    .

  • J

    @Ana

    …they actually rejected me because I was unmatchable

    They can do that? What are their criteria for “unmatchable”?

    I don’t think “I’m a special snowflake” so any woman can if she really wants to.

    I used to think that anyone could get married, but I do know some perfectly lovely women who got left on the shelf. Two of my childhood friends never married, and both are lovely women who would have made great wives and mothers. Good looks and an outgoing personality DO help, as does the sheer luck of meeting the right person at the right time. I credit a lot of my finding my husband to luck. I had certainly abandoned the search at the time I met him and was concentrating on building a life alone.

  • J

    @SW

    a lot of men here say they really don’t need relationships with women for the intimacy, other than sex. They can get their need for that met with their guy friends.

    Men have, it seems to me, some needs that can only be filled by male friends. It also seems to me that many married men find their worlds contracting to include just work and family as they get older. A lot of older men come to regard their wife as their best friend. Older women, especially once the kids are gone, often find their circles expanding. They tend to have a female best friend.

  • J

    but really why would I waste all that goodness with bitter men who have been so burnt out by some supposed “over educated masculinized sluts”? Someone tell me! All those bitter speech don’t show generosity and strength, qualities I always look for in Men I’m interested in because these are qualities and values I want to transmit to my future kids.

    Mireille–You have to realize that the internet is sort of an aggregator for outrage and that quite a bit of anger that can’t be vented IRL is vented here. At the same time, I have to agree that I’d run in the other direction if I encountered these attitudes IRL. They aren’t the attitudes that would contribute to a happy marriage or good relationship. I feel fortunate not to have to deal with this stuff IRL.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @J

    They can do that? What are their criteria for “unmatchable”?

    It happened to me, too. After that, I swore off online matching services, period. I recall something generic like, “unfortunately you’re in the 10% of applicants who’s personality profile can’t be matched with anyone in our database.” Go figure!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    A lot of men here say they really don’t need relationships with women for the intimacy, other than sex.

    Are we talking about monogamous couples with nothing in common who are basically roommates sleeping together? Not exactly FWB, as they aren’t really friends : )

    I don’t see those kinds of utilitarian arrangements lasting all that long. Women certainly don’t have a monopoly on serial monogamy, or stringing along a partner. I’ve also noticed that marriages with a strong friendship component tend to last much longer these days, especially when life events cause problems for a couple.

  • Ramble

    I’ve wondered about this – a lot of men here say they really don’t need relationships with women for the intimacy, other than sex. They can get their need for that met with their guy friends. This has never made sense to me

    I have quoted (well, paraphrased) him a few times on this subject, but Michael Blowhard of the great 2Blowhards.com said, “If the only thing that guys cared about was sex, then rock stars would never get married or even have girlfriends. So, why do they? Because relationships are nice.”

  • Ramble

    I think hubby knew from the beginning I was interviewing him for the job of my husband as he was interviewing me for the job of his wife and I use the word job in a joking way. I doesn’t sound romantic but knowing that we were both in the same page was actually really bonding and I also knew that if any of us saw glaring red flags we at least would be honest to each other.

    Right.

    If you come out of the gate on the first date and say that you are looking for a husband, it signals a certain lack of social awareness.

    But, you can give tons of signals (as a girl) letting the guy know that you are looking for something really serious and meaningful.

    Also, I am not sure if this is ground that Susan has covered beore, but after a girl has played her cards right in how she chose a man to be intimate with, it is possible for her to communicate this to him as well, “I am about to be sexually intimate with you. This is a huge step for me. If you break my heart, I will never forgive you!”

    However, her number better be pretty fucking low and her choices better be of the most honorable men.

  • Ramble

    trying e-harmony (they actually rejected me because I was unmatchable :( )

    Holy Shit!

    How?

  • J

    It happened to me, too. After that, I swore off online matching services, period. I recall something generic like, “unfortunately you’re in the 10% of applicants who’s personality profile can’t be matched with anyone in our database.” Go figure!

    Mega, I’m completely weirded out by this. Isn’t matching people their freakin’ job?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “It seems to me that home is the one place where a man is released from constant intrasexual male competition.”

    I used to believe that before I found the ‘sphere. Now, I’m starting to wonder if there is MORE intrasexual competition for a man once there is a woman in his home. Sure, for single guys the rat race is finding a mate. But for those men that have one, it seems to be damn hard to keep her around long term. Who is under more pressure, the man with nothing to lose, or the man poised to lose half of everything he owns and his family with one simple legal action?

    And as far as relationships go, I’ve said before that while I was with any one of my LTR mates, I fully intended to marry her at some point. I have never once in my entire life continued dating a woman I have determined I would not marry. And in general, I came to that conclusion within three to six dates. Not that I will marry soon, but that I was intending to pursue that goal. If it was completely out of the question, I simply moved on. But, I’ve also stated that I treat LTRs just as I do a marriage. And by that I mean, if I willingly accept a woman as my LTR mate, I am as committed to her in that moment as I would be wearing a ring. To me, marriage used to only mean making it “official”. Now? Well when I got married, a few of the guys in my family grabbed me at the reception and actually put a ball and chain on my leg (with a padlock!). At the time I thought it was funny. Not so much now…

  • OffTheCuff

    Liza – great post at 309. The only thing I would say about “nothing stopping” men from sowing their wild oats is upbringing, which can be hard to break. My folks were married, I went to church and got abs-ed. At 19, I’d no more try to do that than rob a liquor store. Both were immoral. Certainly, there was no one, zero people, cheering me on to go bang as many women as possible. Or even one, for that matter.

    You are correct, that men just need to suck it up and do something about it, if they want to effect change in their own lives.

    I don’t see you as a troll. Maybe a bit confused and feisty and have a little tiny axe to grind, but your story adds up.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    They can do that? What are their criteria for “unmatchable”?
    Mega, I’m completely weirded out by this. Isn’t matching people their freakin’ job?

    Well I read Dr Clark book before I entered his site (did my homework) and his goal is to reduce divorce at least in 1% in USA he has a very long questionnaire and he believes that the best predictor of not getting divorced is picking the right person before marrying and he has like 29 fields of personality and he is very strict about it. He is honest about this he is not going to match you with the second best if at the moment you apply they don’t have anyone that matches you they won’t. It hurts personally and probably is not good for the business but you at least got the respect the man’s commitment. I guess at the time the database was too small and is not the first time I get a personality test that call me “minority” OKcupid also had a couple of this readings with me, except they work with % so you can pick to select people that are the closest to you on your own, didn’t worked on me funny enough I got a guy with 95% compatibility I messaged him and he never answered…maybe he didn’t liked my pic dunno…. so I was sad but not entirely surprise if I haven’t found my hubby on sciconnect I might had tried again later on with a bigger database. I’m stubborn little girl. :D

    However, her number better be pretty fucking low and her choices better be of the most honorable men.

    I was a virgin and he knew I’m picky as hell. I won’t spent five seconds getting to know a man that looks like an asshole (and the five seconds is just to make sure I’m not being shallow) so hubby knew it was something special if I picked him even if it was just to talk at the beginning, later on I showed a lot of interest and sexual availability to him and only him so yeah. I also did that right, not luck in there since keeping myself virgin was a personal choice too.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If you come out of the gate on the first date and say that you are looking for a husband, it signals a certain lack of social awareness.

    I will say that this can be endearing as long as you look and sound a bit naive and innocent. Men are not that harsh with a woman that passes the boner test specially if the man in question haven’t had a lot of experience or doesn’t like casual relationships himself. Is a risky strategy but is not completely hopeless men with “clinger” red flags are usually men that had swam on punani (red flag for me) or that had a clinger that drove them crazy at some point, IME.

    @J
    As mentioned before your friends probably had something that sabotaged them in the marriage market. As we say in advertising: “you can have the best product but if you don’t know how to market it, it will fail 9 times out of 10″
    They whether had some body language issues that sent the wrong signals like I used to, or didn’t did enough approaching and I think women that don’t approach (strong biders) have a huge disadvantage no matter how good they are as marriage prospect. One of the other things I did was to approach myself and risk rejection, and I got rejected a lot it wasn’t pretty but is necesary, but as seen here women in general don’t like this position and some of them will always remember that the guy they had didn’t approached them in a bad way. I think maybe you think that is not fixable but again I destroyed myself to make a more marriageable me self out of the pieces. It was painful and excruciating but it worked and I think it can work for anybody. I have a friend that is a life coach that tell me that the clients he has that don’t fulfill their goals are the ones that refuse to “reframe” and want their goals to be fulfilled with the minimum amount of discomfort I think he is totally right, YMMV.

  • Ted D

    OTC – “The only thing I would say about “nothing stopping” men from sowing their wild oats is upbringing, which can be hard to break. My folks were married, I went to church and got abs-ed. At 19, I’d no more try to do that than rob a liquor store. Both were immoral. Certainly, there was no one, zero people, cheering me on to go bang as many women as possible. Or even one, for that matter”

    Cosign. The concept of a P&D was (and largely still is) alien to me. I would probably rob a liquor store before participating in a ONS. Traditional Roman Catholic upbringing combined with the “shame” of being a bastard really did a number on my natural sexuality I guess. Looking back it is a bit amusing. After all, according to what I was taught in Catholic school, I was a double sinner before I could even speak a word: “original sin” and being born out of wedlock. I remember my grandmother telling me that my mother had to go to about a dozen churches just to find one that would baptize me. I’ll never understand why my mother continued to participate in an organization that painted her out to be the example of what NOT to do… Not saying they were wrong, but I don’t see the point in going back every week for another dose of “humility”.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    @OffTheCuff,

    Thanks. I am surprised that I did not get more pushback from that post from the men here. I think most of the men come here to have their bitterness validated and if you’re not doing that, then you are classified a troll. I am not going along with the partyline and it irritates them.

    So, I appear confused?

  • Ramble

    I will say that this can be endearing as long as you look and sound a bit naive and innocent. Men are not that harsh with a woman that passes the boner test specially if the man in question haven’t had a lot of experience or doesn’t like casual relationships himself.

    Well, personally, I once told Bellita that is what completely OK for a girl to be completely open about it from the word “Go”, for all of the reasons that you just mentioned.

    However, I am trying to broaden the type of advice I give. That is, understanding that a girl may want to communicate qualities like modesty, honor and chastity without blowing the guy out of the water.

    I was a virgin and he knew I’m picky as hell. I won’t spent five seconds getting to know a man that looks like an asshole (and the five seconds is just to make sure I’m not being shallow) so hubby knew it was something special if I picked him even if it was just to talk at the beginning, later on I showed a lot of interest and sexual availability to him and only him so yeah. I also did that right, not luck in there since keeping myself virgin was a personal choice too.

    Ana, what can I say? You have been playing this game at a really high level.

  • Ramble

    I think most of the men come here to have their bitterness validated and if you’re not doing that, then you are classified a troll.

    Liza, some of the men come here to have there bitterness validated and only one guy called you a troll, which surprised me.

    And, those bitter men, at least early on, had a very positive effect on this blog. This blog’s direction changed greatly because of them.

    If it makes you feel any better, I do not think that you are a troll.

  • Iggles

    @ J

    I don’t think “I’m a special snowflake” so any woman can if she really wants to.

    I used to think that anyone could get married, but I do know some perfectly lovely women who got left on the shelf. Two of my childhood friends never married, and both are lovely women who would have made great wives and mothers. Good looks and an outgoing personality DO help, as does the sheer luck of meeting the right person at the right time. I credit a lot of my finding my husband to luck. I had certainly abandoned the search at the time I met him and was concentrating on building a life alone.

    + 1

    Added bold for emphasis.. I think this point is exactly what Royale Cheese and Sassy are arguing.

    I think there are a lot of women who don’t do all they can to attract mates, yet complain that they haven’t found someone. However, there are terrific women who do all in their power to find the right guy and still end up single. For both men and women, it’s never fully in our control so I believe there is luck involved.

    Putting effort into your appearance (clothes, make up, hair), cultivating positivity and femininity in your every day life, and proactively meeting men (via dating services or through friends/family/co-workers) who have LTR potenial help to dramatically increase your odds.

    But timing is a wildcard. And compatibility takes time to fully discern (yes, with screening you can disqualify men who don’t share your life goals but knowing with certainty whether or not you will marry the person you’re dating doesn’t happen on a time table. Some people know within the first month. Others take six months or years, since every relationship unfolds at it’s own pace).

    Personally, I want to get married and have a family someday, so I date with that purpose in mind. My last LTR ended when I realized he wasn’t someone I would want to be the father of my kids (sounds harsh, but that’s when I realized it was really over). So, this is something I’ve put a lot of thought into.

    I started kinda late to the game when it comes to dating (my 1st relationship was when I was 20, which lasted 4+ years). In past couples of years I feel like I’ve learned a lot about relationships and what I need in a partner for it to work, but honestly, I can see how easy it is for your best laid plans to fall apart. I am in a serious relationship now with someone who I love, but it’s too early to tell what our future will be.

    I’m going to geek out here, because this quote sums it up pretty nicely:
    “Being the one is like being love. No one can tell you that you’re in love. You just know it, through and through.” – The Oracle to Neo (yes, I just made a Matrix reference..)

    I suppose knowing if the relationship you’re in will lead to marriage is the same way. If you can’t say yes, either you’re still deciding or the answer is no. I’m still deciding because if I can’t see a future with someone it throws cold water on the whole relationship.

    Anyway, in short, I feel like finding someone to date is way easier than finding a husband (or for guys, finding a wife). Sure you can settle for whoever comes along and wants to marry you but how often does that bring a happy outcome? Sounds like a recipe for divorce. Finding the right person to marry is no easy task, and I think does involve luck.

  • Ted D

    Liza – Remember you are in good company. We seem to both be trolls.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Liza – Remember you are in good company. We seem to both be trolls.
    ___
    Ted, you know what they say about the truth sometimes, right? ;)

  • Iggles

    Anacaona @ 383,

    In reading your posts, I gotta say it’s interesting hearing your insights on dating & searching for a partner! I agree, it’s something you have to put work into to maximize your chances of success, just like anything else.

    I mean, when jobhunting it’s readily accepted that following new leads, networking, searching job boards, and utilizing recruiters are all great tools to use when looking for work. No one believes submitting your resume to one place is all you need to do – on the contrary the amount of effort you put in will lead to callbacks and interviews (in turn, interviews lead a higher change of job offers). So why is it when it comes to love, people hold themselves back from exploring different avenues or believe it should just magically fall into place? I think your viewpoint is more prudent. One has to put themselves out there and take risks.

    They whether had some body language issues that sent the wrong signals like I used to, or didn’t did enough approaching and I think women that don’t approach (strong biders) have a huge disadvantage no matter how good they are as marriage prospect. One of the other things I did was to approach myself and risk rejection, and I got rejected a lot it wasn’t pretty but is necesary, but as seen here women in general don’t like this position

    Ah, yes. I remember this well from my online dating days. Rejection sucks, but it’s all part of the process. Not everyone you’re interested in will be interested in you. There will be guys who don’t message you back or dates that go nowhere. The important thing is not to give up; to pick yourself up and move on. I’m glad I did because I met a pretty awesome guy :)

    I have a friend that is a life coach that tell me that the clients he has that don’t fulfill their goals are the ones that refuse to “reframe” and want their goals to be fulfilled with the minimum amount of discomfort I think he is totally right, YMMV.

    Wow. This is the key to success in life IMO. Many of us are afraid to fail, but how one deals with failure – i.e, reframing and trying again.. or not – is essential.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted, I felt the same, but only in the distant past. When I lost the v-card thru a one night stand, I was nearly suicidal for the next few weeks. Had nobody to talk to, either… surely my parents would kill me! So I had to deal with it slone. It took a long time to realize nothing bad happened.

    Back then, I used to binge drink 3-5x a week to combat these moral anxieties. And they were 90% moral, not social – I had lots of interest, but feared escalation. Good thing I didn’t become an alcoholic – one my best friends (an omega) did just that. It’s sobering to think that church almost made me a drunk for life, just because I wanted a girlfriend. Screw them.

    But as Liza said, men have to grow up at some point. Why is it so easier for her? Other people not like us? I wonder if they didn’t have a similar explicit moral upbringing, or maybe just found it easy/natural to rebel.

    Pre-red pill, I forgave myself, and forgot about them. Nowadays, I actually look back on those experiences positively. Casual sex doesn’t faze me in the least now.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    And, those bitter men, at least early on, had a very positive effect on this blog. This blog’s direction changed greatly because of them.

    Susan, do you agree with this? I’ve gone back and read some of the archives from 2009-2010, and can’t tell when the tone changed. Just curious. And where are all the bitter young women?

    P.S. Sorry, blockquote failed at #375.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      When I first started the blog in late ’08 I pretty much thought men had it made and were just being a bunch of jerks for refusing to commit. I recognized that women were the gatekeepers, so initially my aim was to tell them to be a lot more careful about when and with whom to have sex. That is still part of the message but I would say in late ’09 I became more aware of the male POV. It began with some guys finding the blog and leaving comments here and there. Ultimately, I learned a lot about the Red Pill and Game from my friend Obsidian here. I have tried since then to be sympathetic to males as well as females – I think there are many good men and women who can use support in this highly dysfunctional SMP.

      Over time, the contingent of disaffected men got more numerous, vociferous and obstreperous. MRAs began demanding certain kinds of posts. Some commenters were hostile and confrontational, and when I asked why they posted here at all, they admitted it was in hopes of driving readers away and traffic down. That was my first experience in banning some men.

      All of this came to a head last fall and during the holidays, again when MRAs became angry that I was not following the party line. The comment threads were continually being highjacked, and I found myself having to constantly defend women. I believe you first came to HUS around that time, so you probably remember it. I was getting many emails from female and male commenters alike objecting to the tone and content of some commenters.

      At that point, it became very clear to me that I needed to do some housecleaning. At first, I resolved to delete comments and commenters who were overtly misogynist. That got rid of at least a dozen people. Now I wield the ban hammer with ease – it’s awesome having an ejector button for people who only want to destroy things. And I enjoy my blog a lot more, which surely counts for something. :)

      Interestingly, traffic has grown much more rapidly in the last five months than ever before. I suspect getting rid of the angriest readers has helped a lot.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Personally, I want to get married and have a family someday, so I date with that purpose in mind. My last LTR ended when I realized he wasn’t someone I would want to be the father of my kids (sounds harsh, but that’s when I realized it was really over). So, this is something I’ve put a lot of thought into.

    If you don’t mind me asking, how long did it take you to come to that realization? And why?

    I honestly couldn’t ever imagine dating a girl that I couldn’t see as the mother of my kids.

    People obviously change over time. And if the SO changes for the worse and you’re smart enough to recognize it and eject…. then kudos.

    Don’t take this as an attack, because I have no idea of the circumstances of your situation… But a girl who begins a relationship with a guy and still doesn’t know if she’d want him to father her children or not…. well, that raises some red flags in my mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy

      But a girl who begins a relationship with a guy and still doesn’t know if she’d want him to father her children or not…. well, that raises some red flags in my mind.

      I encourage women to refrain from dating a man they couldn’t see marrying, from the time of college graduation on. Granted it can take time to decide, and one learns a lot in a relationship. But the potential should be there from the start. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to learn that many women are taken aback by this advice. Women in their early 20s really do tend to think they’ve got all the time in the world. It’s not that dating a guy for two years is such a big deal if you decide not to marry him at 23. It’s more the opportunity cost of who you might have been dating instead. It’s much better to stay single until a man with dad potential comes along than to waste time with someone who’s not going to go the distance.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    And again, just to emphasize….

    I have no objection to a relationship not working out when a girl begins that relationship in good faith and with a purpose that marriage/kids is the ultimate goal of that relationship. Sometimes things just don’t work out despite the best effort from both sides.

    But if I find out she wasn’t giving it her best effort? Eh, no thanks.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ana, what can I say? You have been playing this game at a really high level.

    If anyone remembers the movie Gattaca (that is a terrible anti human enhancement movie BTW although a very good sci-fi) there is this moment when the “no valid” wins over his perfect brother in a swimming competition and he says: “You want to know how I did it? This is how I did it, Anton: I never saved anything for the swim back.” Yes that is pretty much me, although I didn’t knew it at time. All this are me remembering and sharing tools that might help others.

    I mean, when jobhunting it’s readily accepted that following new leads, networking, searching job boards, and utilizing recruiters are all great tools to use when looking for work.

    Thank you for your kind words. The funny thing is that if this was a blog about finding the job you want and someone came and say “well luck is part of it” I’m sure there will be few supporters. I do agree timing is important my hubby was on sciconnect for a year and we meet on the last three months (I only got a three month subscription BTW) and he was not planning on renewing since it wasn’t working for him, but timing has to find you there. I actually had to apply for a new credit card and I had to wait for like a year because I didn’t earned enough money for the VISA because the site didn’t accepted AMEX at the time (I don’t think they do at this point either) I could had decided not to spent money on that, or to assume that since I didn’t had the right card is what not meant to be or 1001 reasons to gave up, mental barriers I do have them but I also have mental TNT ;)

    When I first started the blog in late ’08 I pretty much thought men had it made and were just being a bunch of jerks for refusing to commit.

    I will say this is the default though of many women I still encounter them outside HUS. Really Susan you had no idea how much are sites like this needed. The “go grrrl men suck” is as common as Starbucks.

  • Iggles

    @ Jimmy Hendricks,

    If you don’t mind me asking, how long did it take you to come to that realization? And why?

    I honestly couldn’t ever imagine dating a girl that I couldn’t see as the mother of my kids.

    People obviously change over time. And if the SO changes for the worse and you’re smart enough to recognize it and eject…. then kudos.

    We started dating in college (my first LTR, it’s the same guy). Back then I was a lot less self aware and way more forgiving of personal faults than I am now. Ignored red flags because I had such strong feelings for him. We were both young and I saw a lot of potential in him. Unfortunately, he never lived up to it. In college things could be glossed over. Once I left college and we were living in the real world (literally since we moved in together), things changed.

    There were a lot of things, but ultimately his lack of ambition and his passive approach to life in general was our undoing. We were not compatible in the long run. When it comes to values I would like my future husband to pass onto our kids a strong work ethic, personal responsibility, setting and achieving goals – these are the type of qualities that’s necessary to be productive in life.

    Don’t take this as an attack, because I have no idea of the circumstances of your situation… But a girl who begins a relationship with a guy and still doesn’t know if she’d want him to father her children or not…. well, that raises some red flags in my mind.

    Back then, I wasn’t aware of this, but that’s the way I approached our relationship. He was a candidate for marriage until he wasn’t. Once he wasn’t, any feelings I had for him were lost (kind of like reaching an epiphany. We were on and off, then once I realized this I ended things for good).

    I can’t see myself seriously dating any guy I knew I couldn’t see a future with. Since I don’t casually date either (the concept of dating for “fun” eludes me), suffice to say if I am dating a guy he must have long term potential. If not, I move on.

  • Esau

    OTC at 381: “Liza … I don’t see you as a troll.”

    Ramble at 387: “Liza … I do not think that you are a troll.”

    I can confirm this; she’s never at the meetings.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    Thanks for the brief history of HUS. This is a great resource for anybody who’s interested in long-term happiness and just getting out of the SMP. The articles much moreso than the commentary. I’ve forwarded some of the best ones to my single friends.

    FWIW and you already know this, but your generalized view of guys in the beginning probably only describes a minority, maybe 15%. I don’t think they’re jerks for not wanting to commit, but they certainly don’t have it made long-term. And women should definitely avoid them. My sympathy has always been with those who’ve prioritized their relationship goals but haven’t yet succeeded. I walked in those shoes for a long time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      My sympathy has always been with those who’ve prioritized their relationship goals but haven’t yet succeeded. I walked in those shoes for a long time.

      I’ve made no secret of having a soft spot for men who want relationships. I realize that’s not all men, but since I write for women, they’re the guys with the highest ROI :)

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I realize that’s not all men, but since I write for women, they’re the guys with the highest ROI.

    It’s most men, if that’s any solace. I’ve read a lot of articles, surveys, studies, etc. I’ve poured over the trends of the last 20 years. It may seem simplistic, but everything I’ve seen has led me to conclude that men and women can be separated into the following: 2/3 good vs. 1/3 not so good WRT relationship suitability. By the age of 20, I’d say most young people of either gender are seriously (if not actively) looking for meaningful relationships. Perhaps an article on how people successfully meet, date, and choose to marry post-college would be a refreshing antidote to all the negativity (i.e. what “works”)…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Perhaps an article on how people successfully meet, date, and choose to marry post-college would be a refreshing antidote to all the negativity (i.e. what “works”)…

      Good suggestion, will do.

  • Ramble

    Some commenters were hostile and confrontational, and when I asked why they posted here at all, they admitted it was in hopes of driving readers away and traffic down.

    Holy Shit!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Holy Shit!

      Haha, true story. And that guy, who is a blogger, is still all butthurt and whiny that he got banned :)

  • Ramble

    that is a terrible anti human enhancement movie BTW although a very good sci-fi

    Really? I thought the message was the opposite. The “perfect” guy (Jude Law) was actually jealous of the more normal Ethan Hawke. The guy that runs the testing lab at Gattaca knew (all along?) that he was not “perfect” but kept passing him anyway (just like his son).

    The leg elongation was a sacrifice that Ethan Hawke had to make, not a genuine ‘enhancement’ (almost like if some girl who loved her body and had family and friends how thought she was beautiful, get implants that she does not want just to satisfy some arbitrary governing body [no pun intended]).

    Although, to be honest, I don’t really remember how it ended with Uma Thurman and Ethan Hawke…I know at one point she was pissed at him for lying.

    BTW, that part about swimming farther than his brother with no concern for returning was my absolute favorite part of the movie (with the lab director passing his failing test because of his as a close second), as a younger brother to a very competitive older brother, I could relate.

  • Ramble

    I think that I know who you are talking about, but it really doesn’t matter.

    I just hope that your threshold for obstinate behaviour is always just a hair above what I offer.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I just hope that your threshold for obstinate behaviour is always just a hair above what I offer.

      I admire your tenacity, you help keep me honest. And you are always civil. I get very anxious when things get pissy, and that happens a lot online. I really appreciate the tone that all the regulars here maintain.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Really? I thought the message was the opposite. The “perfect” guy (Jude Law) was actually jealous of the more normal Ethan Hawke. The guy that runs the testing lab at Gattaca knew (all along?) that he was not “perfect” but kept passing him anyway (just like his son).

    I mean anti artificial enhancement like “if you use genetics to improve our species you could miss the chance of having great people to do great things” but then the character had a heart disease and wanted to be an astronaut. Would you like to fly with a pilot with 99% chances of getting a heart attack in flight? I wouldn’t. Most of this movies are anti-science and anti genetics improving our lives but then most of this people haven’t seen their family members getting a death sentence just out of lack of good luck on the genetic lottery, being there done that strokes run in my family after 65 (I don’t think I know anyone that has not died of that in my family) and hubby is almost a guarantee to have Alzheimer too, he had to deal with seeing at least four of his grand relatives’s brain rotting away. I do want to think that if my kids can get rid of those diseases forever there won’t be a bunch of people stopping them from happening out of some misguided ethical sense and this are not the really bad ones, some people got it worst on the genetic lottery. I like the movie but the premise is flawed in that aspect, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    BTW, that part about swimming farther than his brother with no concern for returning was my absolute favorite part of the movie (with the lab director passing his failing test because of his as a close second), as a younger brother to a very competitive older brother, I could relate.

    I can relate but mostly on giving it all when I want something. I thank goodness never had to compete with anyone but myself…although that is not a walk in the park either. ;)

  • Ramble

    I like the movie but the premise is flawed in that aspect, YMMV.

    OK, I can get that.

  • ExNewYorker

    “Those who think that following a protocol was the direct cause of a man deciding to pop the question need to stop deluding themselves and others.”

    Like anything else, finding someone has elements of luck involved. I’ll compare it to being in a STEM field: you need to have little luck in getting good mentors, or the break in getting that “one” internship, or a little luck in getting on a good team at work. However, for all the luck involved, we still see that there is a significant requirement for success: making the STEM career a priority since without the hard work required, the “lucky” breaks won’t be there for the taking. It’s similar with finding someone…if it isn’t a priority, then there’s likely to be less of opportunity to capitalize on those “breaks”.

    This is something that seems to elude a fair number of women…they don’t really make finding someone a priority. I saw it all the time in the STEM fields, particularly there because a good chunk of the women seemed to believe that the number of available men would always be what it was during the undergrad science days. Problem is, lots of women don’t stay in STEM (so no more favorable ratios), and even if they do, STEM guys also have the option to date non-STEM women, and the pool of “acceptable” men becomes smaller and smaller over time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      This is something that seems to elude a fair number of women…they don’t really make finding someone a priority.

      I think this is true of most women. There’s a surprising (and discouraging) amount of rationalizing along the lines of “It will happen when it’s supposed to” and “I’m still very young (at 25).”

      Clearly, most women can’t find a mate in college. The minute they get out, they should do it like it’s their job. It may well be the most important job search they ever conduct.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I think this is true of most women. There’s a surprising (and discouraging) amount of rationalizing along the lines of “It will happen when it’s supposed to” and “I’m still very young (at 25).”

    I’ll disagree that most women don’t prioritize finding a mate, and not just because of the poll results in this article. By age 25 (per CDC), 40% of women are off the market, and I think it’s reasonable to conclude that another 20-30% perhaps are either dating someone exclusively or actively looking. Not to say that all these relationships will work out, but there’s at least evidence of effort. After age 25, the % of women exiting the SMP, either married or otherwise involved rises rapidly (maybe 2/3 by that point). But I’ll agree that if a woman hits 25, hasn’t had a serious boyfriend, and hasn’t been actively looking, she’s at a decided disadvantage.

    OT, but I think you’ve suggested women fresh out of college target men 5 years older than they are. I was thinking about this one. The gap in median age of first marriage between men vs. women is only 2 years, and it was less than 2 years as recently as 1998. You have to go back to 1900 to find a time when it was as high as 4 years. I’m just wondering, because there are a lot of young guys aged 20-24 who’d like very much to have a GF, possibly a wife (the CDC numbers show this, too). Are they supposed to be targeting 18-19 year olds? An age discrepancy of 5 years may not be a big deal when people are over 40, but I’m concerned about what that might do to the prime marriage cohort of young people in their 20s. Lots of single guys who’d otherwise marry, having to wait around until they’re “old enough” to be considered?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      An age discrepancy of 5 years may not be a big deal when people are over 40, but I’m concerned about what that might do to the prime marriage cohort of young people in their 20s. Lots of single guys who’d otherwise marry, having to wait around until they’re “old enough” to be considered?

      That recommendation attempts to address a scarcity of relationship-minded men in the years just after college. If there is no scarcity, it’s not necessary to seek older guys.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    That recommendation attempts to address a scarcity of relationship-minded men in the years just after college. If there is no scarcity, it’s not necessary to seek older guys.

    Got it. I’ll agree there’s a scarcity of such guys in really large metropolitan cities. Lesson to be learned there. But 100 million people live between the two coasts and probably don’t witness that kind of reluctance to commit.

    I snapped up the wife when she was 23, and I was 3 years older. We tied the knot 4 years later. The age gap there had nothing to do with her prefering an older guy. Had we been the same age and met, my intent would have been the same.

    Delayed age of first marriage is criticized too much IMO. It’s presumed that women wait until they’re over 25 (sleeping around, perhaps) and then to pick a man to settle down with. What the data doesn’t show is what I’ve seen a lot of: women may be statistically single (or cohabitating), but they’ve been dating the man they’re going to marry for several years.