How Women Really Feel About Male Dominance

In any discussion of what women want, no trait gets more attention than social status. Acknowledged as a key female attraction cue, it’s also frequently referred to as social dominance. It’s easy to see why. One need only look around to see that men in positions of leadership and social dominance are highly desired by women. Ogi Ogas, in his bestselling book A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the World’s Largest Experiment Reveals About Human Desire, confirms its universal appeal:

Study after study has demonstrated the erotic appeal of male dominance. Women prefer the voices of dominant men, the scent of dominant men, the movement and gait of dominant men, and the facial features of dominant men…Scientists believe that the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex may be responsible for processing cues indicating social status or dominance, and it appears that almost all female brains are susceptible to dominance cues.

Furthermore, social dominance is not conferred by women, it’s awarded by other men in a process of intrasexual competition for dominance and leadership. Men continually compete for dominance in social interactions with one another. The men who achieve the greatest rank among their peers may then display that dominance as a powerful advantage in attracting women for sex.

On the other hand, women associate very masculine faces with negative traits such as coldness and dishonesty. Women also perceive very dominant males as more likely to cheat and divert resources away from the family. This may be of little or no concern to women who prioritize short-term mating. For long-term mating, however, the female is faced with the challenge of optimizing the combination of leadership and provider traits.

Until now, scientists have not understood how humans evolved to prioritize pair-bonding over promiscuity, a critical development that laid the foundation for the modern family. A new study proposes that it’s entirely attributable to female choice. Women evolved to prefer cooperative, emotionally nurturing providers over physically dominant males:

Pair bonding supplanted promiscuity in human evolution when faithful females began choosing good providers as mates, a study finds. Evolutionary biologists have struggled to explain how pair bonding and the nuclear family structure took root in humans, as primate groups typically establish dominance-driven hierarchies that restrict mating privileges to a few high-ranking males.

…Using simple mathematical models, Sergey Gavrilets revealed that the most commonly proposed theories for human pair bonding are biologically unrealistic. Then, incorporating among other factors the evolution of female choice and faithfulness, the researcher devised a model showing how pair bonding can represent a key adaptation underscoring the uniqueness of human evolution.

The author proposes that low-ranked males likely began attracting mates by focusing almost exclusively on becoming the best providers, a strategy which had the added benefits of enhancing female fertility and bolstering the survival of their offspring. Over evolutionary time, the model indicates that all but the highest-ranking males would shift to provisioning females who had evolved a high sense of fidelity. The findings reveal that female choice factored critically in human evolution.

That begs the obvious question – if women have evolved to prefer men who provide both intangible and tangible resources (dads) over less agreeable or nurturing mates (cads), why does research show that women reward dominant displays? 

Why do women prefer dominant men?

Since the 1987 landmark study revealing the female preference for dominance in males, scholars have theorized that women would have preferred men most likely to provide them with resources such as food and protection from danger. In addition, the “sexy sons” hypothesis states that women would have been eager to pass along dominant genes to their own offspring. 

Sadalla, Kenrick, and Vershure (1987) published evidence indicating that women prefer men who are high in dominance over men who are low in dominance as potential dates (i.e., potential short-term relationship partners) and rate them as more attractive. 

It seems likely that Erik von Markovik, aka Mystery, who studied evolutionary psychology to codify Game, would have relied heavily on this study. Since his focus was on short-term rather than long-term mating, this research finding would have proved valuable and highly relevant to his efforts.

However, Snyder, Kirkpatrick, and Barrett (2008) questioned the validity of the original findings. They observed a lack of consensus among scholars regarding what comprises social dominance. They also wondered how female preferences differed for casual sex vs. marriage: 

Since [Sadalla et al, 1987], despite numerous studies pointing to limitations of this result, it seems that a simplistic version of their conclusion— that ‘‘women prefer dominant mates’’—has become conventional wisdom in psychology and related fields.

We wish to reopen the analysis of this mate preference phenomenon for scholars of romantic relationships with the following goals.

First, we intend to clarify and reexamine Sadalla and colleagues’ (1987) initial findings. In the pursuit of this goal, we argue that there is a problematic lack of consensus regarding what dominance as a construct is and suggest that subsequent attempts to clarify Sadalla and colleagues’ work (Jensen-Campbell, Graziano, & West, 1995) were insufficient.

Second, we provide evidence suggesting that women’s preferences in regard to status are contingent on several factors, including (a) the distinction between prestige-based and dominance-based status, (b) the social context in which the behavior is observed, and (c) the particular dimension of desirability being assessed.

In their published paper The Dominance Dilemma, they shared results from three studies conducted with female students at UCLA and the College of William and Mary. For the purposes of these studies, they defined dominance as “forced or coerced leadership,” characterized by aggression and other domineering tactics in the pursuit of agentic self-interest. Dominance leads subordinates to submit to a dominant male via intimidation or fear. They tend to maintain greater physical distance from the dominant male and maintain less eye contact. 

Conversely, prestige is defined as “freely conferred status” by peers in recognition of special abilities and skills. Peers benefit from association with skilled individuals, as it is more efficient to copy their expertise than engage in trial and error learning. The prestigious individual is honored, revered and praised by subordinates, and “respond[s] with self-deprecation. Prestigious individuals freely offer information and counsel. Because of this free exchange of status for information, prestigious individuals may appear to be more kind, generous, and willing to help than dominant individuals.”

The research by Snyder et al revealed several key findings:

  1. When given the choice between dominance and prestige, women demonstrate a clear preference for a high-prestige male over a high-dominance male.
  2. Women prefer low-dominance males for both long-term and short-term mating, but the preference is stronger when seeking a long-term partner.
  3. Women prefer high prestige partners over low prestige partners, and this preference is also stronger for long-term vs. short-term mating.
  4. Women find dominant behaviors attractive in the context of athletic competition, but penalize them for both short- and long-term mating.

 

In this light, distinguishing between dominance and prestige is essential to enhancing our understanding of female sexuality and attraction. Overall, the research suggests that women are not attracted to disagreeable males, i.e. jerks and assholes, they’re attracted to men who earn the respect and admiration of other men, and who display kindness and generosity. The degree to which women penalize dominance vs. prestige is contextual, based on their own mating priorities, i.e. short-term vs. long-term.

It should be noted that dominance and prestige are alternate, but not entirely mutually exclusive, pathways to social status. Ironically, fraternity membership and athletics may connote prestige rather than dominance, even as its members often prioritize casual sex and engage in dominant behaviors, particularly towards women.

Fraternities, which generally advertise themselves as offering both male camaraderie and access to high value females, are presumably selective in identifying males who can uphold or even improve the organization’s reputation. They court these males energetically, even arranging hookups for them in some cases. (In the documentary Spitting Game, one fraternity brother at the University of Georgia explained that girls who have sex with three brothers earn the designation of “Toaster.” High value male pledge targets are directed to Toasters at parties during Rush.)

The school athlete is perhaps best positioned to attract his female classmates, as he is rewarded with prestige for teamwork and excites female interest by displaying dominant behavior on the field.

Unfortunately for women, a male’s having achieved a high level of prestige is no guarantee of agreeable behavior with the opposite sex, particularly before he is fully mature. Indeed, he will be influenced heavily by his peer culture, which tends to prioritize douchiness, i.e. dominance, over “good guy” honesty and self-deprecation.

The implications for women are clear:

  • Seek men who have earned prestige from their male peers via their abilities and skills. 
  • Judge a man by the company he keeps, and how much he is genuinely loved and respected by others.
  • Avoid men who tend toward aggressive and controlling tactics, except on the playing field.
  • Expect men engaging in casual sex rather than relationships to display more dominance, as it is less penalized in a short-term mating context.
  • Men with earned prestige have much higher emotional intelligence than men with self-serving, agentic behaviors. Look for depth of emotional expression in the men you date. The emotions need not be focused on you, but a man should feel strong love and loyalty for the things and people he cares about. 
  • Graduate from college and date five years older! :)

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “Conversely, prestige is defined as “freely conferred status” by peers in recognition of special abilities and skills. ”

    What about prestige acquired via family position, which after all was an overwhelmingly important factor in many if not most societies for thousands of years?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      What about prestige acquired via family position, which after all was an overwhelmingly important factor in many if not most societies for thousands of years?

      It wasn’t explicitly studied, perhaps because those people are relatively few in number. My own guess is that it depends on what one does with that privilege. For example, don’t know if you’re watching Game of Thrones, but there you see very interesting differences in styles of leadership, though status was granted via family position, e.g. Joffrey vs. Robb Stark.

      Living in Boston, I am neighbors with several men who inherited wealth and status (of the Cabot and Lowell variety) but don’t really *do* anything. They come across as rather ineffectual and pitiable. If anything, I think a man of inherited wealth is under more of a microscope than other men, because “to whom much is given, much is expected.”

  • Royale W. Cheese

    “When given the choice between dominance and prestige, women demonstrate a clear preference for a high-prestige male over a high-dominance male.”

    Hallelujah. This research/ blog post “gets” me. An ex was dumbfounded when I expressed romantic interest after he had pulled his career together, but then chose a nicer guy after he (the ex) started expressing dominant/ jerk traits (which were unnatural for a nerdy guy like himself). He had bought into the whole “high-value girls are loyal to jerks” bull and tried to apply it to me. I really wish it had occurred to me to explain the difference between prestige and dominance.

    Unfortunately, the nicer guy, who had prestige potential (artistic, visionary, etc), turned out to be gay. Talk about the Universe having a sense of humor. lol. That didn’t stop me from going for nice guys, though. :)

  • Abbot

    “Judge a man by the company he keeps, and how much he is genuinely loved and respected by others.”

    Meaning he is going to commit to a woman that other men would respect and want to commit to if they had the opportunity. Unworthy women know who they are, so please don’t attempt to dupe him.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Illustration comment:
    AHHH Asshole face!? My eternal nemesis, I will imagine is is drinking a martini with arsenic in it and his smug smile is going to disappear soon enough :p

  • Richard Aubrey

    This study seems to diverge from the discussion of tingle-inducing behaviors.

  • Abbot

    “This study seems to diverge from the discussion of tingle-inducing behaviors.”

    It caters to another class of women who have a shot at reproducing with a dedicated father in the house

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    So, Susan.

    What do we do when the culture we live in is utterly toxic?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ADBG

      What do we do when the culture we live in is utterly toxic?

      Opt out of it as best you can, and seek others doing the same. They’re out there. Be a cultural revolutionary.

  • PeppermintPanda

    Several years back I watched a 1 hour documentary that was dealing with how people choose their partners. The documentary involved many different theories and used a speed-dating session as an experiment; each expert used their knowledge of the people and made predictions, and none of the experts were better than random chance.

    An interesting part of this was they included 2 pick-up artists who were well versed in Game and (of course) the pick-up artists predicted that they would be the most highly selected guys among the women; and they were the only two guys at the entire event who weren’t selected by any of the women.

    Attraction is a very complicated thing that is based on the dynamics of a particular social circle. The kinds of approaches that work well in a club will likely fail at speed dating primarily because the kinds of women at both events are very different and want substantially different things out of a partner.

    Realistically, I think a lot of what gets associated with “dominance” is actually a combination of self-confidence, self-respect and being willing to set boundries. We live in a world where the status of most men is so fragile and men have been beaten down so much that most men only have a veneer of confidence; and when women get a wiff of the insecure man that is underneith they run for the highway.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Peppermint Panda

      Attraction is a very complicated thing that is based on the dynamics of a particular social circle. The kinds of approaches that work well in a club will likely fail at speed dating primarily because the kinds of women at both events are very different and want substantially different things out of a partner.

      Hallelujah, a male has acknowledged this truth.

      I think a lot of what gets associated with “dominance” is actually a combination of self-confidence, self-respect and being willing to set boundries. We live in a world where the status of most men is so fragile and men have been beaten down so much that most men only have a veneer of confidence; and when women get a wiff of the insecure man that is underneith they run for the highway.

      I agree – I think that self-confidence and self-respect send a message that the male is satisfied with his rank among males. It implies that he is held in high regard. Obviously, most of the time we’re not in a position to know at first meeting whether a man is a beloved leader, intellectual powerhouse, admired for his character, etc. One’s demeanor serves as a sort of shorthand to provide a first impression.

      Women can indeed sniff out insecurity, literally I believe.

      For me, the major “aha” moment in reading the study was the very clear discrediting of asshole Game, or “chicks dig jerks.” Some chicks may dig some jerks, but it’s not adaptive – we’re not wired to want dominance (as defined here).

  • Todd

    I think the problem is that prestige and dominance aren’t mutually exclusive, and that a lot of people can’t tell easily between the two unless they think about it. Politics is definitely a prime example. Not only is it prestigious, but often accompanies displays of dominance. There are no shortage of male politicians who get women attracted to them as a result.

    Also, you’re expecting people to handle getting prestige well. See the video for Mike Jones’ “Back Then” for an example of handling prestige…less well. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Todd

      I think the problem is that prestige and dominance aren’t mutually exclusive, and that a lot of people can’t tell easily between the two unless they think about it.

      Agreed. College frat guys and athletes are an obvious example of young men granted enormous prestige by virtue of their memberships, who often resort to dominant behaviors in social situations. There are many dominant, domineering professional athletes as well.

      OTOH, there are good men who exemplify all the ideals of athletic competition and brotherhood without wielding dominance against others.

      I actually think that how well a man handles prestige reflects both his age/maturity, as well as his character.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Here’s an unfinished and possibly not-too-coherent thought: perhaps prestige is really only operable in a reasonably stable society or subgroup…stability being needed in order to have identifiable granters of prestige…and in times of chaos, prestige becomes less important and dominance more so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      perhaps prestige is really only operable in a reasonably stable society or subgroup…stability being needed in order to have identifiable granters of prestige…and in times of chaos, prestige becomes less important and dominance more so.

      Good point. The study refers to previous work done on this, and qualifies its results as applicable to Western, industrialized nations. It’s been demonstrated before that female preference for dominance increases in dangerous and violent societies.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @david foster

    I was thinking the same thing after reading this. In unstable communities (think gang-run neighborhoods and such), dominance certainly prevails. This has some pretty heavy implications for certain cultures, but I’m not going to go there. I suspect that perhaps Obsidian may follow up on this…

  • Codeazure

    A fascinating study that makes sense of the different outcomes we see between short and long term mating strategies. It also explains why men cooperated to build civilizations & why we have been so effective “recently” (past 10,000 years or so…)

    The description of prestige makes a huge amount of sense to me. I have never read this before. Bravo Susan, great article! This is why I enjoy reading this blog and others that help my understanding of relationships.

    As was previously mentioned “What do we do when the culture we live in is utterly toxic?”. This is the problem we face now, where the feedback loops and social controls that kept this system in balance are at best wobbly, if not broken…

  • Herb

    @david foster

    Here’s an unfinished and possibly not-too-coherent thought: perhaps prestige is really only operable in a reasonably stable society or subgroup…stability being needed in order to have identifiable granters of prestige…and in times of chaos, prestige becomes less important and dominance more so.

    I think that’s important and it’s similar to some thoughts I was having.

    Prestige, in a way, seems to be a form of pre-selection based not on women’s desire for a man but on the desire of other men to associate with him. One of my first thoughts was all the back to Sixteen Candles with the classic exchange

    The Geek: Yeah, but the thing is, I’m kinda like the leader. Kinda like the king of the dipshits.
    Samantha: Well, that’s pretty cool

    But the thing is, it cannot happen in a vacuum. Let’s say, for some reason, mastery of a broad selection of woodwinds can make a woman horny (hey, a guy can dream). Okay, so far so good. But I only get prestige for that if I’m embedded in a social group where:

    1. Other men will respect me for that (say, being a session jazz performer).
    2. There are women in that social group who see those men respecting me for it.

    This explains a lot of how geekiness appeals to women involved in video game culture for example (Hope, am I getting this right?) or how being a quant, and thus making a good bit of change, can appeal to gold digger types.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Prestige, in a way, seems to be a form of pre-selection based not on women’s desire for a man but on the desire of other men to associate with him.

      It’s going back to the root. Women’s desire for a man is initially derived from his rank among other men. This is what I find interesting about social status – it is conferred by men, not women. Women simply respond to it. They gravitate to the leader. This research distinguishes between the benevolent leadership and dictator styles.

      But I only get prestige for that if I’m embedded in a social group where:

      1. Other men will respect me for that (say, being a session jazz performer).
      2. There are women in that social group who see those men respecting me for it.

      YES! Actually, you get the prestige whether women see it or not, but you get the women when they do see it. As I said above, few of us have the good fortune to make a first impression in the spotlight while basking in the admiration of others. This is where behaviors give us clues – agreeable self-confidence vs. disagreeable conceit, for example.

  • Herb

    @Codeazure

    A fascinating study that makes sense of the different outcomes we see between short and long term mating strategies. It also explains why men cooperated to build civilizations & why we have been so effective “recently” (past 10,000 years or so…)

    It certainly does. It also ties into something Dogsquat and others brought up several threads back: that men will specialize in something to gain status in the male hierarchy. We might not be the top dog but if we do something the top dog needs for success and other men perceive that we gain value and respect.

    Which women apparently pick up.

    Also, it explains why garnering the respect of other men and gaining a place in the hierarchy is so important to men. Believe me, for most men finding a group where you have a place, even if it’s in the bottom 10%, is much more valuable than being the cool lone wolf. Also, being in the bottom half of a high value group (football team, major bank, in power political party) is better than being in charge of a much less powerful group (golf team, the local Kinkos, a political third party).

  • Mireille

    Indeed, Prestige is much more acknowledged than dominance; if you express dominance but have nothing to show for, no talent or skill, something to distinguish you from the other men, what’s the point? Women will just move on when they realize you’re more crust than filling.
    We sometimes see men who really work hard to acquire prestige in order to be allowed to be dominant since prestigious people get a leg up. This is how you hear of men “upgrading” to a “better ” wife/girlfriend.

    I know these two men, friends of friends; one is cute, smart, athletic and nerdy, the other, very educated and knowledgeable but really out of shape though married. Both are always competing for social dominance and prestige, I avoid talking with them for fear of looking stupid. The problem is they don’t know how to talk to other people if not on the dominance through pseudo prestige thing. Handling those qualities also requires measure and moderation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mireille

      if you express dominance but have nothing to show for, no talent or skill, something to distinguish you from the other men, what’s the point? Women will just move on when they realize you’re more crust than filling.

      Interestingly, research on the evolution of narcissism posits that it’s a shortcut to mating for men who are indeed more crust than filling. Since some male ancestors were disagreeable and could not sustain relationships, the Dark Triad traits evolved to allow them to reproduce using a short-term mating strategy. Since those traits are largely heritable, we still see plenty of those men today.

  • http://Hunter-Gatherer.com John Durant

    First, the initial study mentioned (“Study Finds Female Choice Key to Evolutionary Shift to Modern Family”) is not a “study” of anything, really. It’s a mathematical model. You can make mathematical models say whatever you want them to say.

    Second, defining social dominance as “forced or coerced leadership” is kind of absurd. Does anyone think that college-aged women at UCLA and William and Mary are going to report that they like “forced or coerced leadership”? That definition sounds like it was made up by someone who doesn’t understand social dominance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @John Durant

      First, the initial study mentioned (“Study Finds Female Choice Key to Evolutionary Shift to Modern Family”) is not a “study” of anything, really. It’s a mathematical model. You can make mathematical models say whatever you want them to say.

      True, but the model is an attempt to explain pair-bonding, since the researchers claim that none of the prevalent theories are biologically feasible. They’ve constructed a model to test the hypothesis that female choice may have played an important role. Frankly, this struck me as stating the obvious, but of course that’s what a lot of social science research does as it attempts to follow the scientific method, which is obviously not possible.

      Personally, I think there’s value in asking the questions and constructing hypothetical answers – isn’t that better than everyone just deciding for himself?

      Second, defining social dominance as “forced or coerced leadership” is kind of absurd. Does anyone think that college-aged women at UCLA and William and Mary are going to report that they like “forced or coerced leadership”?

      LOL, the terms were not used in the research. The methodology involved exposing the students to a variety of vignettes showing different forms of leadership, social dominance, prestige, etc. The women rated the men on attractiveness, desirability as a short-term partner, and desirability as a long-term partner.

      Also, I’ve heard many men say that women’s attraction to dominance is proved by the fact that men on Death Row receive love letters. In my experience, there are many men who believe forceful dominance or coercion with women is successful.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Once again, an excellent article, well presented. Of course, theres a few flies in the ointment that we simply must discuss.

    But first, a word to ms royale with cheese, since we recently had words over at vsb on a related topic:

    Madam, if i may, and with all due respect-your problem isnt as complicated as it sounds. Ive mentioned the solution before over at vsb, and it bears repeating over here:

    Rooshv, despite the several areas of strong disagreement ive had with him, said it best; if youre a woman whos having trouble attracting the guys you want, its almost always due to youre not being hot enough; you should spend your free time improving your appearance and lowering your standards.

    Comment & reply, invited. :)

    Now, to the topic at hand…

    As ive argued, quite persuasvively i might add, both here, vsb and my own blog, black women in particular do not seem to select for intelligence in their men, and now thinking about your post here, they do seem to select more for social dominance-which as you point out is a proxy for short term mating-and which then explains a great deal of what we see in the black community. As per usual, i do not take a “moral” position on any of us; just citing what is.

    The problem, ms walsh that we keep coming back to, is that everything you advise simply doesnt work in a deregulated, unfettered sexual market focus on people under 30. The “presitge/emotional intelligence” model you noted above is an excellent case in point-by its definition, longer term pairbonding signals on the part of men are things that come with age, and that are appreciated by women who themselves have more life experience and maturity.

    Of course, as you and anyone whos spent any amount of time in the manosphere know, thats cold comfort to so many guys who, essentially have to settle for damaged, or at the very least, used goods. By the time women hit 30, theyve either been divorced w/kids in tow, or have them w/o marriage at all, or failing that, have been out there dating for more than a decade and all that comes with it. Simply put, there just isnt any evidence you or anyone else can provide that proves that the things you write about actually can work for the under 30 set.

    If indeed human mating comes down to what women want-and youll get no argument from me there-i think we have more than ample evidence that proves what women overall have chosen…

    And, “prestige/emotional intelligence” aint it-at least not at the ages where, as far as most guys are concerned, it counts the most.

    A final thought.

    A few years back i attended a free concert in nyc’s central park, headlined by raphael siddiq. The place was packed and as is to be expected in nyc, filled to the brim w/ladies. Yet NONE of the guys stepped to them!-and the ladies were clearly putting out all kinds of “come hither” looks and the like. None. Of. The. Brothas. Budged.

    Ive given that incident a lot of thought since then; and ive come to the conclusion that what i saw was one of the many unintended, but rarely if ever openly acknowledged, consequences for our new grrl order: that we have literally socialized the agentic quality of men right out of them, and it has had dysgenic effects-now, only the boldest of guys will dare to approach, flouting the possibility of having to run afoul of the law and so forth. The very guys you so often champion, have made the calculation that “the rent is too damn high!” and have decided to pass. Meanwhile, sistas like the ms royale with cheeses of the world, will continue to bemoan the derth of “good men”.

    Hmm…

    Holla back

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      Simply put, there just isnt any evidence you or anyone else can provide that proves that the things you write about actually can work for the under 30 set.

      Why wouldn’t they? If we’re talking about the way human beings are wired, the potential is there. Culture and age/maturity do indeed play a role, and the pool of suitable mates may be shrinking as a result, but it’s still the best strategy for women to follow.

      If indeed human mating comes down to what women want-and youll get no argument from me there-i think we have more than ample evidence that proves what women overall have chosen…

      I don’t think there is an “overall.” I think there are different sub-populations operating according to different constraints and opportunities. In my particular target market – college students – more than 80% of both women and men are not having much sex. Those women are mostly choosing to sit it out.

      that we have literally socialized the agentic quality of men right out of them, and it has had dysgenic effects-now, only the boldest of guys will dare to approach, flouting the possibility of having to run afoul of the law and so forth.

      Agree 100%. Oddly, I just saw a comment somewhere – I can’t remember who or where right now – and it was the same observation you made, but the guy was pleased to see that the men avoided eye contact with the women. He perceived it as men rightly taking back control. That is truly dysgenic, when victory = not connecting with the opposite sex.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “Meanwhile, sistas like the ms royale with cheeses of the world, will continue to bemoan the derth of “good men”.”

    I haven’t bemoaned the dearth of good men. I have stated that technically you can’t make a man marry you, even after giving it the ole college try. I have also said that you can actively filter out cads, which is a practice that I appreciate and use myself.

    “you should spend your free time improving your appearance and lowering your standards”

    I keep my hair up, get monthly facials, keep my nails done, and wear nice clothes. Short of plastic surgery, I don’t know what else to do, Obsidian, so I’ll just have to live with being hideous. Lowering my standards may require pretending to like a guy I’m not attracted to…do you think the guy would appreciate that?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Please read for comprehension; i said, “sistas LIKE ms royale with cheese”-meaning, sistas of your cohort (highly educated, high earning, etc).

    If the pic in the avatar is indeed you, then youre at least partially correct: there isnt much to be done. High status, high achieving black men have made it quite clear who they prefer, which tends to be lighter skinned black (or quasi-black) women with more flowing tresses. In that you have neither of these traits, your chances of landing such a brotha are statistically slim id say.

    Which is why i quoted roosh.

    Would a guy be cool with your pretending to be attracted to him? Do most guys care if a womans faking an orgasm?

    Finally: do you agree or disagree with my assertion that black women, as a group (and that includes your cohort btw-not just the hood), does NOT select for intelligence in their men, as a first principle? If not, what evidence can you present otherwise?

    Holla back

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      High status, high achieving black men have made it quite clear who they prefer, which tends to be lighter skinned black (or quasi-black) women with more flowing tresses. In that you have neither of these traits, your chances of landing such a brotha are statistically slim id say.

      OMG! Stop that! That actually sounds racist to me, but I’ll admit this is not something I know anything about. Still, I won’t have you critiquing someone’s appearance here – that’s just rude and harsh.

  • manwhorextraordinaire

    Men continually compete for dominance in social interactions with one another.

    No, depends on the existing hierarchy. Once a hierarchy is established, men usually “know there place” and don’t usually buck the established order too much.

    But the biggest problem I have here is the association with “dominance” as nothing but a purely negative trait.

    I truly dominant male literally inspires submission in men and women alike. When in the presence of real dominance, the lesser dominant men and women all want to please or gain the favor of a truly dominant male. Read up on the journalists who covered Bill Clinton’s campaigns for President. When he entered a room and spoke, every person present was in utter, rapt attention and hung off his every word – even his ideological opponents. That is true dominance. It’s essence is neither positive or negative, it just is.

    Another word for “dominance” that is perhaps less loaded with negative connotations would be CHARISMA.

    The negative connotations of the word dominance come with confusing the term with “domineering.”

    There is a huge difference between the two.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @manwhoreextraordinaire

      You’re getting hung up on semantics. The reason the researchers did the studies was the utter confusion around the term dominance. When you ask women if they like dominant men, some picture a charismatic charmer, others a wife beater. In order to understand female attraction triggers, it is important to break down what we mean when we say “dominance.” For the purposes of the study, the researchers described different types of men. Some displayed kindness and generosity, others controlled people via intimidation or manipulation. Females responded very differently to each type.

      Charismatic individuals can display dominance, prestige, or both. I actually thought of Bill Clinton when writing this post – his social status is entirely derived from prestige. His style is anything but agentic and self-interested. That doesn’t mean he has not failed tests of character (ahem), but he has earned respect while displaying enormous warmth and generosity. I’m not a Clinton fan, but he’s a poster child for prestige over dominance.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “If the pic in the avatar is indeed you, then youre at least partially correct: there isnt much to be done. High status, high achieving black men have made it quite clear who they prefer, which tends to be lighter skinned black (or quasi-black) women with more flowing tresses.”

    Just FYI, I don’t date black men exclusively…but of course the “fair-skinned female” ideal operates across different groups. Isn’t that also true for men outside of the “highly educated high achieving” cohort? In spite of that, women who look like me do end up partnered with men of varying races and at different educational/ financial levels. I’m particularly interested in the highly intelligent cohort. But if they are also wired into the pigementocracy, then I’m pretty much screwed all the way around, no? :)

    “Would a guy be cool with your pretending to be attracted to him? Do most guys care if a womans faking an orgasm?”

    Interesting answer. I’m interested in hearing from the other male posters, as well, regarding this question.

    “Finally: do you agree or disagree with my assertion that black women, as a group (and that includes your cohort btw-not just the hood), does NOT select for intelligence in their men, as a first principle?”

    My cohort? I am not only highly educated and high-earning, I am also highly intelligent. My true cohort does select for intelligence first. Women outside of my cohort…they tend to go for the stereotypical tall dark bald Mandingo-in-a-box (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT_rApjhVnU) that does not exist.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Whats your iq score?

    Second: of course black men generally desire lighter skinned black(ish) women; but again, please read for comprehension: i specifically mentioned high status, high achieving black men, and for good reason-because though i dont know you personally, i do know your demographic quite well, and by everything youve said both here and over at vsb i am failiry certain you would be more interested in the higher end brothas than the lower end ones, all things being equal of course.

    That you wouldnt date brothas exclusively doesnt come as any surprise to me either, and thats probably the best route for you, since again, brothas with options have made their preferences quite clear. Ralph richard banks discusses all this in considerable detail in his book “is marriage for black people?”.

    So, now you know that im an equal opportunity rabble rouser (recall my recent advice to champ re: jewish/asian women).

    Finally: you have not provided any evidence in response to my question about black women (not) selecting for intelligence in their men; you have only provided a singular anecdote, which, even if it were acceptable on that basis doesnt work, given your own admission that you dont date brothas exclusively; so in a way, you dont count. Kinda reminds me of your “observations” of apparently unhappily married women you saw, which led you to the conclusion that women, overall, benefit less from marriage/ltrs than do men. If youre as smart as you say, you should know better than that.

    Yes?

    Holla back

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “Whats your iq score?”

    I never bothered to take an official IQ test as an adult, but as a sixth grader, I tested into pre-algebra. I didn’t go to a prestigious private school or anything, but it was a decent public school in the suburbs. I’ve scored 135-140 on a couple of online tests.

    “That you wouldnt date brothas exclusively doesnt come as any surprise to me either, and thats probably the best route for you”

    Whatever gets me to an attractive, intelligent, sincere man who loves me.

    “since again, brothas with options have made their preferences quite clear.”

    Quite.

    “So, now you know that im an equal opportunity rabble rouser”

    Never doubted that, O. I like to think that there are good intentions buried somewhere underneath…maybe.

    “Finally: you have not provided any evidence in response to my question about black women (not) selecting for intelligence in their men; you have only provided a singular anecdote, which, even if it were acceptable on that basis doesnt work, given your own admission that you dont date brothas exclusively; *so in a way, you dont count.*”

    Okay. That seals that, I guess. Seems like you have your answer already. I have nothing more to contribute but anecdotes.

    “Kinda reminds me of your “observations” of apparently unhappily married women you saw, which led you to the conclusion that women, overall, benefit less from marriage/ltrs than do men. If youre as smart as you say, you should know better than that.”

    lol. You should know better than to take a personal snarky assumption as a scientific conclusion on a message board that is mostly humor.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    If i am guilty of anything, it is taking the byline of “very smart brothas” seriously-along with the crazy notion that black people could actually use the opportunity to discuss vital information, instead of doing online tryouts for comic view.

    Go figure. ;)

    Anyway, yea, what banks said. I do think theres a small but significant cohort of sistas like yourself who would probably benefit from going the route he suggested. Have you read the book?

    As for your remarks about the utility of marriage/ltrs for black women, i wasnt responding to your being snarky; i was responding to your being strident. The topic is a very serious one insofar as the black community is concerned; strond positions require strong evidence to back them up-a very nasty habit we black folk have fallen into btw (not backing up what we say w/evidence, i mean). Thats why i think so very highly of hus. I meant it when i said vsb could learn something from what goes on here.

    I think we both know, deep down, the answer to my admittedly rhetorical question; its just that im more than willing to openly speak on what anyone can see w/one good eye. Its what any good rabble rouser does.

    Ok, so what do you make of my observations of that concert in nyc etc?

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian

    No I haven’t read Banks’ book, but I’m familiar with the title. It caused some controversy. I’m not very motivated to read it, to be honest.

    Re the NYC concert: My best guess would be that the guys were afraid of being cut down by the women. Cutting men down is full contact sport with a lot of women I’ve observed (if I am allowed to share more anectodotal evidence).

  • Royale W. Cheese

    And this was right on cue…

    “As ive argued, quite persuasvively i might add, both here, vsb and my own blog, black women in particular do not seem to select for intelligence in their men, and now thinking about your post here, they do seem to select more for social dominance-which as you point out is a proxy for short term mating-and which then explains a great deal of what we see in the black community. As per usual, i do not take a “moral” position on any of us; just citing what is.”

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    I hereby grant you anecdotal amnesty; by all means do proceed! Id like very much to hear your views on this “full contact sport” you speak of.

    As for the central park concert, like i said above, the ladies were certainly making it known that they wanted the guys to approach. Now, we can debate as to whether the ladies wanted *certain guys* to approach-and that would indeed be a relevant point to consider-but from all i saw, the ladies definitely wanted some attention, and the brothas werent buying.

    Another admitted anecdote:

    I attended another venue in nyc, this time in soho, an eric roberson show; at one point, HE BEGGED the fellas to step to the ladies. Again, no dice. It was like being back in junior highschool at the big dance where the boys were on one side and the girls were on the other, and never shall the two meet, lol.

    I say, that at least part of whats going on here is that feminism worked…too well. It has successfully neutered the very kinds of guys you and other young ladies in this forum claim to be interested, leaving only the most bold guys to step to the ladies in such venues-which brings me to another point, ms rwc:

    Please note that both venues featured artists that would be associated with “brainier” black folks: siddiq and roberson. these are also venues where black folk are, on balance, older-at least 30 or so, if not more. Yet, i saw what i saw.

    How do you explain it?

    Lastly: i think you would enjoy banks’ book-i did, and this is coming from someone who had considerable areas of disagreement with him.

    Holla back

    O.

  • VJ

    Yeah other than trying to make sense of the ‘Cheeseburger chronicles’ here, I’m calling BS on the whole concept here. The UTK study was a computer simulation based on underlying assumptions we know not, using ‘characteristics’ that are evidently neither genetic or even observed epigenetic, hence their ‘fixation’ in any population over time is just largely an academic parlor guessing game. Interesting theoretically, but a plethora of behaviors can easily be selected/imagined for in each and every daily interaction in 1000′s of ‘critical and fundamental’ ways to contribute to this scenario. The study likely accounts for almost none of these variables. The 90% +of the universe’s ‘missing mass’ issue.

    How about some contemporary, say singular literary evidence? Like here from a Jezzie: http://jezebel.com/5914608/you-are-not-his-girlfriend-how-to-know-when-youve-been-brod

    I’ll Quote: [On a Hawt dude Irby dated but wanted to 'do']: “I read his email and was like, “Yes, want. Dangerous, don’t care. Killer, handsome. Rape and disfigure, still don’t care.” [Also add to that]: “Dudes with [Read:similar] good taste in music seriously could walk me on a fucking leash”.

    So in reality? Real life experiences tell us something wildly different day after day, hour upon hour of real life observations. Many women in their prime reproductive years, say 18-28-30 will not ‘key’ on Prestigious males Absent the Dominance signals, and fairly strong and obvious ones at that. And above all? They’ve got particular aesthetic requirements that belie most of their concerns over much beyond the usual hypergamous ones. This is true for many ‘modern’ gals in many advanced modernized westernized societies. Mating or even dating ‘prestigious males’ Absent some real, ongoing and again quite Obvious Status Cues indicating a supposed Superiority of available resources, just is not happening all that often. Or not really often ‘enough’ to engage perhaps 50%+ of the male population. And when you have that many ‘players’ who are essentially locked out or down from the mating games? That’s a lot of ‘wastage’ in the system. And no, that’s observational, no computer simulations required!

    So theoretically lots ‘might’ be going on, and there’s plenty of ‘theories’ from various and sundry about why it’s going this way or that. But on the ground observations tell us that the more education women acquire, the pickier they generally get & the longer they’ll likely postpone marriage. And this general observation does indeed spill over to the entire society as a sort of ‘training & media effect’ writ large. If you’re watching much TV? You’re already infected. Ditto for consuming much of the usual print/magazine media. But seemingly for ‘short term mating strategies’? Anything goes, and will go on for a decade most likely for many women. Then they’ll try to ‘sober up’ and if they want some sort of a ‘respectable family life’, they’ll try to start searching for that ‘special Prestigious gift/resource bearing kind & gentle/cooperative’ provider, but likely not much before age 30 or so. Only then might many women begin to imagine reconciling themselves to possibly forgoing the infamous ‘deadly triad of traits’ of attraction for the hypothetical more atypical and more plentiful yes, beta providers. But even these guys better have some serious game, and demonstrate their better than average provider status. And so much more, most likely before the nest is even built or secured. That’s the reality today, of where we’re at. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  • Richard Aubrey

    Interesting and valid point about “mathematical model”. See, in another field, the global warming “hockey stick” and other models which don’t even predict the past. They’re run up with propaganda in mind, not scientific validity.
    You want to publish? Studies involving lots of people are expensive and aggregating others’ studies is time-consuming and might not get you where you want to go. So you “model” reality.

  • Ramble

    Unfortunately for women, a male’s having achieved a high level of prestige is no guarantee of agreeable behavior with the opposite sex, particularly before he is fully mature. Indeed, he will be influenced heavily by his peer culture, which tends to prioritize douchiness, i.e. dominance, over “good guy” honesty and self-deprecation.

    This is probably more true now, than it has ever been. It wasn’t that long ago that children did NOT spend there entire day in age segregated classes, and then, possibly, onto age-segregated sports and clubs.

    And, it some societies, you can still see the 13 year old boy wanting to impress the 16 year old boy who is wanting to impress the 19 year old who is looking … you can see how maturity can develop in a situation like this.

    Fart jokes will still likely be appreciated from time to time, but outright douchebaggery would be smacked down.

  • Abbot

    “a shortcut to mating for men who are indeed more crust than filling”

    aka duping women. Poor babies. But these men should exercise caution because upon discovery of the dupe, some women do cry rape.

  • Ramble

    If anything, I think a man of inherited wealth is under more of a microscope than other men, because “to whom much is given, much is expected.”

    There is a reason why men cannot stand playboys…they are worthless to a society.

    If you are some pretty little rich girl, you can spend all of your time going to charity events, “balls”, galas, openings, parties and other events. You basically send all of your time getting dressed up and utilizing social skills and judging (a girls all time favorite).

    But if you are a pretty little rich guy doing this, you just seem useless. A man trying to plays a girls game.

  • Ramble

    Also, being in the bottom half of a high value group (football team, major bank, in power political party) is better than being in charge of a much less powerful group (golf team, the local Kinkos, a political third party).

    Herb, I completely understand that this was not your point, but…there is something so unattractive about guys who get involved in power politics.

    I am not talking about some guy that has a hobby horse (i.e. forest maintenance, Gun-Control/2nd-Amendment, etc.), but someone whose interest is political maneuvering. It’s like they have a general interest in being a weasel.

    People who choose to enter politics are like people who choose to enter into selling Used Cars. Personally, I have never known anyone CHOOSE to become a Used Car Salesman.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “Women’s desire for a man is initially derived from his rank among other men”….two things about this:

    1)If this is correct, it will play out very differently according to the age structure of society. If (in the Olden Days), an 18-year-old is working and his rank is being determined by his 22-year-old foreman (whose rank is in turn determined by the 29-year-old shop supervisor), the attributes rewarded will be very different from an 18-year-old college student whose rank is determined by others of basically the same age and with no meaningful social responsibilities.

    2)What about men who are innovators, who are exceptionally good at what they do but it has not (yet) been recognized…the talented but not-yet-discovered actor, the inventor who hasn’t yet sold his patent, the startup businessman who is still scrounging for his first angel investor? Do they ever succeed with women? (My guess would be that self-confidence is extremely important here; fortunately, they are likely to have it or they wouldn’t have to guts to do what they’re doing)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @David Foster

      )If this is correct, it will play out very differently according to the age structure of society.

      That’s actually a really interesting question – how has male intrasexual competition changed over time, and how does it vary within societies?

      )What about men who are innovators, who are exceptionally good at what they do but it has not (yet) been recognized…the talented but not-yet-discovered actor, the inventor who hasn’t yet sold his patent, the startup businessman who is still scrounging for his first angel investor? Do they ever succeed with women? (My guess would be that self-confidence is extremely important here; fortunately, they are likely to have it or they wouldn’t have to guts to do what they’re doing)

      Agreed, if anything men like this have outsized self-confidence. I think it’s partly how they’re made, but they’ve probably been innovating, displaying talent and determination from a young age. Even at a young age, my guess is that most of those types had a talent or trait they excelled at.

  • Rgotn

    Sounds pretty “right on.” Socially / Athletic dominance works great for college girls. The “cads” as you call them are validated by other males in social settings and athletics. College Males do not validate one another by grades. Fraternities and more exclusive clubs provide college males with prestige too.

    I think as both men and women age, Prestige, financial success win out over dominant behavior for women seeking LT. But, women still want to f*ck the Alpha. I see it all the time. As a mid-40′s married male, I have seen so many divorces caused by a woman having an affair with an Alpha’esque guy while the successful, smart, loyal and mostly, non-socially dominant male is left behind with payments and a broken heart.

    Attraction is something the LTR must always maintain.

  • Ramble

    Hallelujah, a male has acknowledged this truth.

    Susan, please, speed dating is not a great way to understand female attraction triggers. I am not arguing that club rats have the last say on what female attraction triggers are, but let’s not get carried away.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, please, speed dating is not a great way to understand female attraction triggers. I am not arguing that club rats have the last say on what female attraction triggers are, but let’s not get carried away.

      It’s not that I’m extolling the value of studying speed dating, but I welcome broadening the sample beyond nightspots.

  • Doc

    “That begs the obvious question – if women have evolved to prefer men who provide both intangible and tangible resources (dads) over less agreeable or nurturing mates (cads), why does research show that women reward dominant displays? ”

    This wouldn’t make sense unless women were actually rewarding the males displaying dominance with reproductive opportunities, and then using the “dads” to ensure those off-spring reached maturity and were able to pass along the same tendencies to their off-spring. This makes perfect sense from what I have seen in my life. I know that I have several children – of course the “Dad” has no idea. Women are doing what best ensures the survivability of their offspring, while still providing reproductive opportunities to dominant males. They have been doing it for as long as humans have been around, and will continue to do so.

    This is why I am a strong advocate of genetic testing – never take responsibility for any child till you’ve verified it is actually yours. If you don’t take that simple precaution, you deserve what you get for being stupid.

  • Ramble

    Personally, I think there’s value in asking the questions and constructing hypothetical answers – isn’t that better than everyone just deciding for himself?

    Are those hypothetical answers really better than men reporting what they see in “the field”?

    Again, I am not saying that Roissy and Roosh have the last say on what is actually happening, but statistics are at their best when they help describe what is actually happening.

    So, for instance, people will say that Statistics can say anything you want them to, which is true. But, think about baseball: various nerds have spent the last 3 decades devising newer and newer stats to help evaluate what is actually happening. And, some of those newer stats have proven to be better than others.

    My point is this: these studies prove most helpful when they help us understand that which we are hoping to understand.

    So, if some study went about trying to understand why the average person marries (in a culture where fewer and fewer people are getting married, getting married after their sexual prime, and still maintaining a pretty damn high divorce rate), that would only be so helpful to a bunch of men who are interesting in getting with (i.e. banging, dating, marrying, whatever) the hottest girls at their most fertile.

    That is, we don’t really care all that much about why some overweight person married some unattractive person. Girls don’t watch TMZ and read Us magazine to find out who that Cinematographer is dating.

    So, it is not that these studies are complete crap, I don’t think that is the case at all. But, “field” reports are still very, very helpful…and definitely more helpful than “hypothetical” answers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      So, it is not that these studies are complete crap, I don’t think that is the case at all. But, “field” reports are still very, very helpful…and definitely more helpful than “hypothetical” answers.

      I agree that field reports, or anecdotal evidence, is useful and informative. As always, it is important to consider the source. Just as I acknowledge that my focus groups represent some but not all women, I think we need to recognize that a single man approaching 50 may not actually have his fingers on the pulse of the SMP. Or that a 30-something guy scoring most of his lays (by choice) outside the U.S. may not be the foremost authority on American college women. And of course, none of us can attest to the validity of these FRs. I’ve been struck more than once by the unlikeliness of some anecdotes I’ve read – they just didn’t have the ring of truth or sound like genuine interactions.

      I know for a fact that some of the males giving FRs online are really, really not what they purport to be.

  • Ramble

    His style is anything but agentic and self-interested. That doesn’t mean he has not failed tests of character (ahem), but he has earned respect while displaying enormous warmth and generosity. I’m not a Clinton fan, but he’s a poster child for prestige over dominance.

    He also never won a majority of votes in either presidential election, could not get anything passed in the first half of his first term which had a Democratic President and a Democratic majority in Congress, and, basically, oversaw a loss of Democratic power in each major election from 1994 to 2000.

    I am not saying he wasn’t “alpha”, I’m just sayin’.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I am not saying he wasn’t “alpha”, I’m just sayin’.

      Recently I posted a Helen Fisher video where she describes him as being very high estrogen, haha.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: dominance, prestige, and competition. An interesting bubble of very gentle and humble, Mr. Nice Guy behavior can co-exist within a larger study of violent and aggressive activity.

    For an immediate example: a top MMA gym that produces truly dangerous unarmed fighters will often have a culture that emphasizes control and humility as much as it does athleticism and technical ability. IME, the reason for this is to prevent injuries, resentments, and irrational escalations of aggression that can break out at any time when dealing with a subject as potentially destructive to body and ego as fight training is.

    Given the subject matter they are trying to master, the fighters have to come up with psychological pressure-relief valves to prevent serious problems from developing. One good habit, usually enforced at least informally, is to avoid bragging about having a good day in which you dominated your training partner. Instead, the victor will usually shrug and say something like, “I got lucky on that one” or “you were so close to getting out of that submission; I probably won’t ever be able to put that on you again.” The loser will usually respond by complimenting the winner. The positive atmosphere is maintained: both guys can train hard in a dangerous combative sport, day after day, but remain friends and help each other to get better.

    Perhaps this forms a kind of behavioral paradox: in order to learn to become truly (literally) dominant over other men, a man will probably have to go to train at one or more of the places that have experience in the development of uberdominant men. However, the places that conduct this type of training will need a range of high-quality training partners who are willing to stick around and support one another, which in turn means that a culture of cooperation, compromise, and humility may be critical. Thus, the men most capable of total, foot-to-ass dominance may have been simultaneously developing a deep (if tacit) understanding of subtle ego dynamics, management of emotional conflicts, and ways to cooperate and get along with other people in stressful, emotionally-charged situations.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      Thus, the men most capable of total, foot-to-ass dominance may have been simultaneously developing a deep (if tacit) understanding of subtle ego dynamics, management of emotional conflicts, and ways to cooperate and get along with other people in stressful, emotionally-charged situations.

      I recently heard Eric Greitens speak at a college commencement. A Duke grad, Rhodes scholar and Navy SEAL, he was all about humility, caring for his fellow SEALs, and overcoming personal adversity and doubt by focusing on the good of the group. He was the epitome of prestige over dominance. A great humanitarian, he now dedicates his life to getting vets into positions of community activism. His wife won the jackpot. (She is no slouch herself: a Stanford alum, Marshall scholar, and PhD candidate at Harvard.)

  • J

    Furthermore, social dominance is not conferred by women, it’s awarded by other men in a process of intrasexual competition for dominance and leadership. Men continually compete for dominance in social interactions with one another. The men who achieve the greatest rank among their peers may then display that dominance as a powerful advantage in attracting women for sex.

    Now that is interesting! Particularly the idea that it is men who award soicial dominance to other men.

    Since I arrived in the ‘sphere, it’s been my theory that women want a guy who can exert enough dominance over the environment so that he manipulate it into providing resources for her and their kids. I have maintained that women who crave dominant men, particularly the young and naive, often mistake dominance over them as an indication of dominance over the environment (confusing sizzle with steak, as I have referred to it in the past). I have also suggested, before became disenchanted with the nomenclature, that “betas” tend to be steak, while alpha thugs tend to be sizzle.

    This research confirms my thesis. “Prestige,” the respect conferred on men by other men as a reward for having a combination of alpha and beta traits (leadership paried with the ability to mentor and build consensus), is more attractive to women than thuggish dominance.

    On a personal note, it also explains why after 25 together, I still get a kick out of watching a$$holes being deflated by one sickly smile from my husband.

  • J

    AHHH Asshole face!? My eternal nemesis, I will imagine is is drinking a martini with arsenic in it and his smug smile is going to disappear soon enough :p

    LOL. I see great minds are thinking alike this morning. But, who needs arsenic? As I said, one look from my husband can wipe that smirk right off another guy’s face. My younger son competes in the junior division.

  • Windy

    ”Agree 100%. Oddly, I just saw a comment somewhere – I can’t remember who or where right now – and it was the same observation you made, but the guy was pleased to see that the men avoided eye contact with the women. He perceived it as men rightly taking back control. That is truly dysgenic, when victory = not connecting with the opposite sex.”

    That would be me. I made the comment on another thread. Don’t quite remember the thread’s name. Anyway.

    It is quite the win for Men because, by rejecting what nature intended us to do, we free ourselves from a lifetime of child-support, alimony, stds that will not go away(most of the guys I know who are sexually active don’t do it with women who broadcast any slut vibe by they are all suffering from herpes and HPV) and we open ourselves to an endless ocean of possibilities.

    I am not saying that there aren’t women out there who are worthy of commitment. Sure, I’ve met a few who were blessed with good looks, intelligence, chastity and capacity to be loyal to their men… But women of great moral fiber and who are at the same time not owners of a Loch Ness Monster face, and aren’t sexually promiscuous/or had several sexual partners are nearly extinct.

    Besides, it is so awesome to be in my late 20′s, to have far more money than most of the men who dedicated themselves to very profitable careers, because the money they earn is spent on the family. I don’t have anything like that. I inherited my parents and my grandparents etc farms, houses and lands. I don’t pay rent – I rent the houses and invest the money in properties.

    My wealth will amass itself with each passing year and with no one to spend it on(relationships, dating, escort services etc etc) I will be quite rich. My financial independence will allow me to dedicate myself to what I believe will grant me my Immortality; the arts.

    I will paint and paint and paint until I’ve surpassed the greatest of the Masters.

    I can’t come out and say that every man will be as lucky as me, as I was to inherit my family’s possessions, but I have met many young men who aren’t interested in becoming high-status seekers or wealthy, and they’re extremely content with the state of their lives.

    Most of these guys, the vast majority of the men who weren’t given genetic godhood(height, muscles, Brad Pitt face etc) will not bother with women. Sometimes I even watch average AND attractive women approach these guys and ask stuff like, ” is this the bus stop to x place” while 1 minute before reaching the bus stop they were on the phone with their sisters saying that they’ve reached the bus stop and were now waiting for the bus.

    They had the schedule memorized and more than that. They went up to these guys who weren’t anything special to look at, average dudes, some even below average(below average height) and they smiled to them, whole mouth smile, touching their arms and such…

    Only to be completely ignored… It was as if there was nowhere there, the sound coming out from the young women’s(average to attractive women) was a figment of an imagination that was elected to be ignored by the Beta males.

    The women stood shocked, not knowing how to react to what was considered impossible by the men who weren’t forced to grow up within feminism.

    I, and an incredibly high number of men who are of my age or younger than me are unknowingly joining the ranks of the Herb-men from Japan. Me, I’m doing it because I’m smart. The rest of them are doing it due to a lack of developing taste for female attention and sex. After a lifetime of eating noodles you really cannot find a pleasurable flavor to fish; like a decent-looking friend of mine who had his first kiss, first sex at the age of 30 and didn’t like it all.

    This might seem like we’re dooming our species to extinction. Doubtful. The men who are smart(millennial-generation men) are very satisfied with porn and with their imagination.Video gaming satisfies our need for white knight behavior, saving the princess, transmuting one self from low status male to social dominant Colossus by saving the World, like Cloud Strife did in Final Fantasy VII.

    Most of us aren’t interested in having children either. They seem to be too troublesome. The boys are too addicted to female attention and the girls are mini-entitled princesses.

    Women benefit vastly from the abandonment of society by the beta male. The path is clear for the Alpha male to be had. Women will have their fun with the men they really want and most men will not be destroyed by hyperygamy as there won’t be any bigger, better deal for the woman to go after.

    Stds will be arranged to be only possible within a small circle(Alphas and women), the majority of men will be sexually healthy. Low hours of work, one of the major reinforcements for the men who are seeking to go their own way, will be possible, which will result in many more hours of leisure.
    We’ll live much longer.

    We won’t have to work jobs we hate to put food on the table for a family. We won’t have to worry about, are we making the women happy, are they in love with us. We won’t be compared to their ex-partners. We won’t be accused of false rape report. We won’t be forced to be a ”man”, pony up those responsibilities.

    We won’t be one of those dudes who has to wait in the supermarket some 5 hours because his wife wants to make sure they have everything they need.

    The list goes on and on and on, but I gotta run; I have a ”date” with the Dragon Queen from A Game of Thrones. She’ll give me everything I want by indulging my imagination and I won’t have to pay one dime for it.

    Only by denying the biological imperatives Nature has cursed the beta male with, can he rise above commonality and become truly free like the Buddha and the Jesus Christ’s of dedication to Mankind.

  • J

    “This study seems to diverge from the discussion of tingle-inducing behaviors.”

    Au contraire, mon frere. This is what loads of us tingle for.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Pleas, Susan, don’t censor Obs and RWC. You can learn more about the dynamics between the sexes from a black man and a black woman speaking candidly to each other than from just about any other source.

    The African-American community being kind of a canary in a coal mine as it were.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      Pleas, Susan, don’t censor Obs and RWC.

      I don’t want to censor anyone, and I’m sure RWC can take care of herself, but yikes, that was a bit harsh. I give anyone who puts up a pic a lot of credit.

  • J

    Let’s say, for some reason, mastery of a broad selection of woodwinds can make a woman horny (hey, a guy can dream).

    If you pick the right cohort of women, it actually does.

  • Windy

    Just wanted to add that, after being treated as the invisible man from my teens to my mid 20′s has given me greater control over the vastly higher testosterone men have. Last month, a woman and her family moved to my building. The family is comprised of a grandmother, a granddaughter, and a daughter. The father of the granddaughter is in jail. The grandfather of the child is dead, died 5 years ago of cancer.

    The child’s niece is 18 years old. Tall, with a rather attractive body language. She’s naturally blonde, with a greatly slim figure that is not skinny nor indicative of artificial augmentation; she has a naturally bust chest, and the facial definitions of a Scandinavian barbie doll.

    She could easily be a top model would it not be for the abundance of very attractive women in my area/it’s a high-quality Colleges area.

    Not only is she without a boyfriend, she doesn’t have FWB’s, no one calls her to hook-up(she’s always complaining about her lack of sexual life) and she has more than one occasion displayed sexual interest in me.

    She’s 1 minute away from me as we speak. All I had to do was to get up from the chair, hit on the door, and ask her if she has some milk to spare. She knows that I have social status ie, I have a college degree and I’m getting a post-graduation degree, whereas the majority of the young men here dropped out from college and spend their time getting high on weed and playing video games.

    She has also noticed – I was having a 4 hour conversation with a friend of mine on the subject of women, sexual attraction, hypergamy, and social dominance – right in front of our building.

    She knows I periodically travel to other Countries to visit friends, evaluate possible acquisitions and for fun(no, not sex turism, lol).

    I am a vastly better dressed than most men. I don’t use pants that fall below my butt. I don’t use a baseball cap. I don’t walk like an Ape. I have at all times perfect posture. Immaculate personal grooming; always clean-shaved, shaving my face 3 times a day and more if needed. My hair is always shinny. I change my clothes 2 times a day.

    In a word, I like to please myself and I take great pleasure in my personal image.

    Her niece, the child without a father took a liking to me. She’s clearly in need of a male presence in her life. She’s ruddy, wild, doesn’t know how to behave. Her two female mentors don’t really know how to instill discipline in to a child.

    This little girl stares at me, imitates what I do, doesn’t go home like her grandmother instructed to, choosing to stay really close to me and my friend and do the uttermost to call my attention. I’ve ignored her many times before but she still insists on having me pay attention to her.

    The interest this kid has in me has also shown to her aunt that I could possibly be a great dad, sparking her interest even more, but can you believe how emotionally stuttered she was, when I take one of my friends to visit my house, she’s at the door waiting for me to open it, which I do, but at the same time I make it clear that her being there made absolutely no difference in my demeanor?

    I approach the door, she sees me. Begins to violently blush. Pupils dilate. Her nipples become erect. Her body is slightly shaking. The entirety of her body language is emanating mating call signals, all of it directed at my body. It was also somewhat around the end of the month, she was probably ovulating.

    I enter the building. Do not hold the door. It hits her in her face. I keep on going. My friend asked me why I won’t tap that(the young woman),” she’s hot, man.”

    Indeed she is.

    I don’t want to get burned.

  • Ramble

    Instead, the victor will usually shrug and say something like, “I got lucky on that one” or “you were so close to getting out of that submission; I probably won’t ever be able to put that on you again.” The loser will usually respond by complimenting the winner.

    And if the loser, upon being asked by a third party how it went, responds, “Yeah, he is just being modest. I have a lot of work I need to do. I give up my back too easily.” The victor will think that much more of him.

    Self-awareness, hard work, honesty…this is the kind of guy I want on my side.

  • modernguy

    It’s really nice how you’re trying to remove “asshole” from the equation Susan, and indeed it would be great if the whole wide world was made up of smiles and sunshine. But it isn’t and these studies are nonsense.

    As someone pointed out, the first “study” is a model, it’s a hypothetical possibility at best. In this case the “conclusion” that women were responsible for the establishment of committed monogamy as a result of their mate selection is laughably belied by the fact that women, under fewer social constraints than ever, are now choosing the biggest assholes and douchebags in sight. If you don’t believe the entire manosphere on that point, go ask Tucker Max or any frat boy on your nearest college campus.

    Of course, you mean women choosing for long term relationships, and to that any man should say, “who cares?”, because only a fool is going to wife up a girl who spent her prime slutting around.

    The second study is pure dissimulation. It presents a false dichotomy between threatening, unlikeable asshole and talented push-over. Guys who are good with women are likeable assholes. That point has been made again and again. That’s what women go for, and turning likeable asshole into unlikeable asshole or into likeable pushover and presenting the two as the only options is just fucking stupid.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      It’s really nice how you’re trying to remove “asshole” from the equation Susan, and indeed it would be great if the whole wide world was made up of smiles and sunshine. But it isn’t and these studies are nonsense.

      May I ask your qualifications for judging UCLA an institution engaging in nonsensical research? Whose observations do you believe deserve more credit? Did you even read the post? Are you aware that Game itself is based on research like this?

      I am well aware that there are plenty of assholes in the world, I write about them frequently :)

      If you don’t believe the entire manosphere on that point, go ask Tucker Max or any frat boy on your nearest college campus.

      This is an exception fallacy. Not to mention confirmation bias.

      With only 2% of male college students getting to 10 partners in college (including oral) you’re guilty of drawing conclusions from exceptions to the rule.

  • Herb

    Okay, before I comment on anything I have to come to the defense of my profession. Sure, I can make a mathematical model say anything, but I can’t make a good mathematical model do that.

    First, mathematical models extend well beyond the large scale computer simulations that most people associate with them. Newton’s laws of motion constitute a mathematical model as doe Maxwell’s equations of light. In fact, the harder the science the more likely the majority of the theoretical work is building mathematical models that both explain know facts and predict possible new observations.

    The test, for me, is how many times does the model have to be updated to calibrate the past. If I build a model of interest rates, for example (since that’s one of the biggest things I’m involved in writing) in 2000 and it is predictive through 2008 but in 2009 I have to re-calibrate it to fit 2008 it’s a much better model than one written in 2000 and re-calibrated in 2002 to account for 2001 and in 2003 to account for 2002 and so on. Both failed, but one failed at a signficant point where the data changed radically (similar to an object entering a large gravitational field would require modification to a model of motion built in the absence of large gravitational fields) while the other simply failed on day to day calculations.

    As was pointed out above the motive behind the model can affect that. Quants write economic models (in defiance of Hayek, which is something I keep in mind every day at work) and if we screw up the company loses money and we lose our jobs (if you say, “they don’t lose money because the bank gets bailed out” I won’t argue except to point out that doesn’t secure the job of the quant writing the model, just the CEO who hired him). If the goal is to publish in a scientific journal fitting current prejudice is the indicator of success. Which group would build my “good until 2008″ model and which one would build my “good until the end of the year” model is left as an exercise to the leader.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Susan Walsh #31

    In most areas of life people generalize their successes far beyond what can really be justified, and many men who are successful in the pick-up game are making assumptions about women that are not supported.

    Being that “slutty” women (for lack of a better term) are likely going to clubs several days a week and dressing to maximize their attention, while relationship-material women are only going to the clubs a few times a month (if that) and are often dressing more modestly, the kinds of women these guys are approaching are disproportionately going to be the “slutty” women. On top of that, with how game is internalized, when these guys fail with 80% of their approachs (and probably 99% of the time with relationship minded women) they assume it is because of lack of being “alpha” enough; so when 20% of the women respond in a positive way they don’t think it is because these women are different, they assume it is because they have done something right.

    Essentially, it would be remarkably difficult to convince someone who believes they’re 100% responsible for the outcome of an encounter and is highly successful (as measured on a per-night rather than per encounter basis) that their understanding is limited and their assumptions can not be generalized.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @mulechewingbriars:
    Thanks, man. I certainly see where ms walsh is coming from, but her attempting to silence me or anyone else when it comes to the brutal truths of evopsych wont do her or anyone else any good. Even ms rwc has acknowledged what i said was true, and lets face it:

    Ms walsh herself knows what im saying is true, for the most part. The problem is, that shes very pensive about openly speaking on what she and anyone, regardless of color, can clearly see with one good working eye.

    Think about it: whens the last time you saw a high status black man w/a noticeably darker skinned black woman? Ok, lets all recognize barack obama-but after that, who else?

    To ask the question, is to more or less answer it.

    It is a documented fact that lighter skinned black women tend to “marry better” ie, higher status black men then do their darker skinned sistas. It is what it is, and dont think for one minute that black women arent aware of this-they are. Spend some time going through the vsb archives and see for yourself.

    Most people would agree that kanye west is a high status, high achieving black male. ALL of the women hes been romantically associated with, are noticeably light skinned. At present hes carrying a torch for a woman whos been married and divorced twice, and whose very name has become synonymous with the words “sex tape”-yet, that doesnt prevent west from seeking kim kardashian out.

    But why doesnt he get with someone like say, india aire? After all they share a number of things in common-at least as much as alicia keys and swizz beats(!). Aire is a grammy award nominated singer/songwriter who just about everybody recognizes is highly talented. Ill wait while you get me documentend sources of brothas pining away for her-again, you can start with the archives of vsb, which is written by two black men. Personally, ive never seen panama or champ even mention aire, let alone pine away for her and that again goes to prove my point.

    Want another example? The williams sisters. Theyve dominated the tennis court for more than a decade-do either of them have high status, household-name brothas on their arms-like say, beyonce does? To ask the question is to answer it-in fact, the younger williams sister, serena, was just in the news talking about how she was throwing in the towel on dating. No dis to her, but i think we all know why its been so toughgoing for her.

    In his book “is marriage for white people?”, ralph richard banks devotes entire chapters to skin color and hair texture-which in american life slots you on the beauty hierarchy, if youre female. Simply put, the darker/kinkier your hair, the lower down on the totem pole you are to black men who matter. Ms rwc is riht-she can most certainly get with a brotha-itll just be as a said, one wholl most likely not have as high status as she would have liked. Given her relative youth, education and earning, it will be very hard for her to accept such a blatant step down, hence at least in part why she dates nonblack guys. We know from evopsych/buss, that women who are like her desire more of the same from the men they date-which is why i basically gave her my blessing on going the banks route. Getting with a white guy may be the best possible option for her, because-please forgive me-it doesnt look likely that she will be able to compete on the metrics that high status black men have made clear they want and desire in black women. Theres a reason why brazil has an entire subculture built up around american black men going there to vacation-puerto rico too. In fact theres an entire porn series devoted to this topic-do some googling around.

    Nothing im saying here is in anyway new; at least not to black folk-it just sounds harsh which explains ms walshs comments.

    But that doesnt make it any less true. Bsides its hard to see her chastise anyone for simply pointing out the fact that short(er) men get passed over all the time by the more desirable ladies. Such is life and those guys are expted to either suck it up or sit it out-either way, its highly unlikely any of us will see a ms walsh bemoaning this to say nothing of chastising anyone who dared to openly speak on and recognize it.

    More in a sec…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Bsides its hard to see her chastise anyone for simply pointing out the fact that short(er) men get passed over all the time by the more desirable ladies. Such is life and those guys are expted to either suck it up or sit it out-either way, its highly unlikely any of us will see a ms walsh bemoaning this to say nothing of chastising anyone who dared to openly speak on and recognize it.

      I don’t bemoan it because I don’t see it happen. I’m well aware that many women on dating sites specify a tall height, but in my experience, the smaller guys do fine. In fact, some of the more notorious college players of my acquaintance are 5’8″ or under. I’ve theorized why before – they compensate with attitude/self-confidence, but I don’t know why it is. It would be very interesting to see data re sexual partners and how it correlates to height.

      Here’s a true statement: In four years of focus groups meetings, I have heard women express a preference for tall men – but only from women 5’10″ and over.

      I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying it doesn’t mesh with my experience. When I do talk about it, it’s usually to say the above and I get shot down by the guys. *shrugs* I don’t have a dog in the fight.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Pleas, Susan, don’t censor Obs and RWC. You can learn more about the dynamics between the sexes from a black man and a black woman speaking candidly to each other than from just about any other source.

    The African-American community being kind of a canary in a coal mine as it were.
    —-
    I have no idea why that conversation is even taking place on this blog. Just saying.

  • Ramble

    I’ve been struck more than once by the unlikeliness of some anecdotes I’ve read – they just didn’t have the ring of truth or sound like genuine interactions.

    This, I completely agree with.

    Those hidden videos (granted, I have seen fewer than a dozen…although, I don’t go looking for them) can be a real treasure.

  • Herb

    @J

    Let’s say, for some reason, mastery of a broad selection of woodwinds can make a woman horny (hey, a guy can dream).

    If you pick the right cohort of women, it actually does.

    The problem is that cohort of women is both broadly dispersed and generally older.

    The key issue with men (not women but men) acting on this study is just that. It’s a way to sit out until you’re thirty or make a splash in a broader distributed group. While the Internet age has helped on the later (it revolutionalized S&M dating both for good and bad) it hasn’t helped on the first.

    As our culture extends adolescence into people’s late 20s and encourages age segregation (odd, something I wrote about harming D&D’s culture a few years back) what constitutes prestige earning actives will converge with asshole activities. I think that’s something to which you allude when you state “women who crave dominant men, particularly the young and naive, often mistake dominance over them as an indication of dominance over the environment “. A similar activity occurs with undirected teenage boys. I suspect Obs will tell me multiple generations without active fathers mean a lot of poor black men never quit being teenagers in some ways.

    For women this is good advice if they can regulate themselves because it helps them identify men getting prestige for useful reasons before their peers do. Want to land a man who is going to be an 8 or 9 at 40 when you’re 20 and even then only a 6? This is great advice because you’re getting the early shots.

    For men at 20 trying to get a date, not so much. At least not in this day and age. We leave kids by themselves which is part of what broke assortive mating (as Susan loves to point out, adult guidance played a big role in its success).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      For men at 20 trying to get a date, not so much. At least not in this day and age. We leave kids by themselves which is part of what broke assortive mating (as Susan loves to point out, adult guidance played a big role in its success).

      I am sympathetic to the plight of young males. I think the solution lies in correcting the Pluralistic Ignorance around hookup culture, and finding ways to bring the majority of males and females together, something that is currently not happening. I haven’t cracked the code on that, but I’m convinced that raising awareness is the first step. So that’s where my efforts are focused at present.

  • Ramble

    I have no idea why that conversation is even taking place on this blog. Just saying.

    Because the internet, at times, can feel very White-centric.

    And the social dynamics of people descended from Sub-Saharan Africans can be very different from those descended from (North) Western Europeans and South East Asians.

  • Ramble

    His wife won the jackpot.

    Correction:

    His new wife won the jackpot.

    He’s divorced.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “Also, I’ve heard many men say that women’s attraction to dominance is proved by the fact that men on Death Row receive love letters. In my experience, there are many men who believe forceful dominance or coercion with women is successful.”

    Susan. Note you say that men “believe” that forceful dominance…is successful. Is it possible they’ve seen/done it so they believe? Or do they just believe? Big, huge, major difference.

    .

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard Aubrey

      Susan. Note you say that men “believe” that forceful dominance…is successful. Is it possible they’ve seen/done it so they believe? Or do they just believe? Big, huge, major difference.

      I think that many people mistakenly generalize from high-profile incidents. Jeffrey Dahmer gets marriage proposals, and suddenly a blogger is writing about women getting wet for serial killers. Women date, marry and stay married to abusive men, and some people conclude that women like to be abused. When we talk about female or male sexuality, we can (or should) only speak in general terms about what we know about the majority. And in the case of sexual behavior, we only know what they tell us. It’s far from an exact science, but it’s better than massive confirmation bias.

      In a very real sense, there are many men who are invested in believing the worst about female nature. Why? Perhaps they were unlucky (or unwise) in their choice of mate. Perhaps there’s an element of revenge for not having succeeded in attracting a mate. Perhaps their anger at an inequitable legal system makes it impossible to tolerate female company. Whatever the reasons, I have found that they are often emotionally invested in a specific conclusion, and that is the enemy of truth, IMO.

      I’m not interested in fitting the facts to a specific outcome. Many have accused me of being unfair to players and cads, and denying their inherent attractions. I’m not cherry picking studies here – I can hardly keep up with the release of journal articles around mating. I will happily report (and have) on any study that shows what women or men want, whether or not it fits someone else’s agenda. My only agenda is to understand it, so that I can help others understand it and plan accordingly.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    It must be understood and cannot be overstated that everything im saying here is fully backed up by the researches of prof david buss; moreover, as mulechewingbriars has pointed out-and as ms walsh herself has freely admitted several times on this blog-black america truly is the canary in the coalmine that is america. We can test all manner of evopsych theories there, with some very interesting results.

    My question-”do black women select for intelligence in their men?”-is one such example. I think we all know or at the least, sense what that answer is; but again, youre not supposed to notice because if you do, youll be tarred/feathered for being “racist”-and if youre lucky youll get a twofer-”sexists/misogynist” too! Of course such a response is meant to deflect any real analysis of the question; it hurts too much for some people to simply recognize the truth. But it wont change the truth anymore than ms walshs attempts to silence me will change what high rolling brothas want in their women.

    Going to her response to my post last night-again, at the risk of being redundant, the problem here is that she has failed to provide evidence that the “beta strategy” actually is a viable one for MEN UNDER 30. In fact it anything she agrees with me that it isnt-which means that in a very real sense, these guys WILL be settling. Now, we dont make that much of a big deal out of that as a society because of, i think, our collective sexual psychology; men do indeed have a lower sexual threshold than do women, and so we expect men to settle more than women. Moreover, most men in any societ failed to mate and society chugged along; so our psychology really doesnt focus much on the (male) losers of the sexual sweepstakes.

    By its very definition, the beta strategy is such that it comes second to the alpha one-which means that it will appeal to either older women, or second tier women (think of what i said earlier in relation to black women); the most desirable women simply wont be a factor here, as they, like buss has said in his books, will be able to demand whatever their going “price” is-and the beta strategy clearly aint it.

    This is what ms walsh has failed to take into account in her mentioning of mystery: please recall the subtitle of his work “the mystery method”-

    HOW TO GET BEAUTIFUL WOMEN INTO YOUR BED.

    Theres a reason why mysterys system doesnt go below a 6 on the scale. And again, this is wholly consistent with all that buss has said: for all but the most desirable mates of either sex, everyone else has to get in where they fit in-that means settle for what they can get. Part of the problem the beta guys have, aside from their being hardwired to want the dimes too, is that the more middling to below average gals-like the lena dunhams of the world-have an artificially inflated smv, in part because they can get sexual validation from guys who are at least a point higher on the scale. Only when theyve been pumped and dumped will they consider mr beta. To date, ms walsh has failed to give any guy here an alternate strategy as to how to appeal to the hotties thats better than what mystery has come up with. Until she or someone else does, its highly unlikely most guys will want to go that route.

    More in a sec…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      I’m loath to switch gears into alpha/beta nomenclature here, as I believe it muddies the waters, but I will respond to your comment in kind.

      May I remind you that I am not advising males? I am not suggesting a beta strategy for males. I am suggesting that women under 30 value beta traits and reward them, in combination with alpha traits. Contrary to your claim that this cannot work, I have seen it work in many cases. I have also seen numerous men with pure “alpha”, i.e. dominance traits, flounder with women. They tend to get ONSs, try for harems, and generally run asshole Game, which means that they are largely irrelevant to the women I’m addressing (or should be).

      Most women are second tier women, and most of the men complaining are second tier men. Mystery’s good intentions notwithstanding, most men will not get super hot babes into their beds. A dose of reality from both sexes is essential. I’ve heard men say here that because they are a 3, and cannot feign attraction for a female 3, they prefer to GTOW. That’s fine – it’s honest, at least. I agree that many women have an inflated notion of their own SMV and for that I recommend the school of hard knocks. As you say, improve the product, lower the price, or find a niche market. It is a shame if so many women are learning the hard (and slow) way – another bad deal for young guys. Maybe men should start shaming manwhores for pumping and dumping their would-be wives.

  • Richard Aubrey

    J.

    ““This study seems to diverge from the discussion of tingle-inducing behaviors.”

    Au contraire, mon frere. This is what loads of us tingle for.”

    Au contraire, ma soeur. Two items: First, the entire tingle-inducing discussion dismissed such things. I referenced a late relative of mine whose funeral was attended by, among others, seventy-five of his closest friends from the SEAL and related communities. I discussed what was said about him–which I would pay gold to have said about me except you don’t get there with gold–and was told that such things do not a tingle induce and men should recall that what they think is great does not impress women. Doqsquat on his blog said…women want what they want and what men think is great and women should want women don’t want and men ought to “get it”.
    IOW, that thread actively dismissed what qualities men prize in men as TI (new acronym). IOW, men-awarded prestige doesn’t work.
    YMMV, but the point is this discussion is quite different from the other one, no matter that YMMV.
    Secondly, repetitively, the geocentric system was a mathematical model.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    “@ms rwc:
    I hereby grant you anecdotal amnesty; by all means do proceed! Id like very much to hear your views on this “full contact sport” you speak of.”

    Lol. I’m sure you would, and not only for your own “education,” but for everyone else to see as well.

    @Susan
    No need for alarm regarding pigmentocracy. It is typical and predictable. I’ve gotten used to it (to the point that now, no one can bait me into an Internet flame war over it). I’ve even had some darker men peer closely at my hair and cheerily announce that I must have Native American in my family. After they run out of Kim Kardasians and Halle Berry’s maybe I’ll finally get a date to the prom! :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Royale

      Do black women have a preference re pigment? Or does this only go one way? My knowledge of this issue is admittedly based on reading alone, but a common theme in literature is that light skin, e.g. “high yellow” was a mark of status for either sex among blacks. (That term was still in use less than 100 years ago!) This is obviously related to consensual and non-consensual sex during the era of slavery, and as such must be a very loaded topic among descendants of slaves.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, I am familiar with Eric from a couple of similar background reference points and mutual friends, although I do not know him on a personal level. From what I have heard, I would hazard the guess that he has an interest in a political career.

    Ramble, re: “…I give up my back too much”, etc. Exactly, man, you know the deal. There is a Bro Code for these things.

    For whatever it is worth: when I asked my female undergrad students to be more specific in what they considered attractive about dangerous or “badass” men, we ended up with a couple of dozen items listed on the board. I then dutifully went to the next step and forced pair-wise competitions until we came down to four that really were the most prized (by far). In order of popularity, the four finalists were:

    1. Strength & Conditioning
    2. MMA
    3. Extreme outdoor adventures (dangerous game hunting was #1; big-wave surfing and mountaineering were also mentioned)
    4. Tactical shooting

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      From what I have heard, I would hazard the guess that he has an interest in a political career.

      I’m sure that’s what everyone at the commencement address assumed. Tufts referred to him as “the best commencement speaker you’ve never heard of” but I suspect that’s about to change. William Bennet reported on his speech for CNN. Greitens is a very well spoken and impressive man.

  • Herb

    @Modernguy

    As someone pointed out, the first “study” is a model, it’s a hypothetical possibility at best. In this case the “conclusion” that women were responsible for the establishment of committed monogamy as a result of their mate selection is laughably belied by the fact that women, under fewer social constraints than ever, are now choosing the biggest assholes and douchebags in sight. If you don’t believe the entire manosphere on that point, go ask Tucker Max or any frat boy on your nearest college campus.

    Look to your name and then consider the highlighted part.

    Those social constraints were enforced by women back in the day. Why did they start?

    Because this is behavior that isn’t even pre-modern it is pre-neolithic.

    Modern women can behave as they do not only because social constraints are loosened but because the very environmental factors that drove the creation of those constraints is gone.

    Does that mean women created them? No, I’m not asserting that. What I am asserting is comparing women without social constraint now to women without social constraint on the savannah of Africa 1,000,000 years ago to today isn’t very insightful.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    It’s not that I’m extolling the value of studying speed dating, but I welcome broadening the sample beyond nightspots.

    Uhm, hello? Given I did very little clubbing and most of that in punk and goth clubs and most of that to actually just dance I’d say I’m outside the nightspot sample.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      I was not referring to you specifically with the nightspot comment. It’s just that the ‘sphere takes much of its truth from that arena, and I personally think it’s limiting.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    I think we need to recognize that a single man approaching 50 may not actually have his fingers on the pulse of the SMP.

    I’d argue any single person is closer to it than someone married several decades. His view might be narrower (his own experience) than yours with the focus groups and it will skew to different age groups but he’s still in the trenches.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      I’d argue any single person is closer to it than someone married several decades. His view might be narrower (his own experience) than yours with the focus groups and it will skew to different age groups but he’s still in the trenches.

      I’ll agree with that. Then again, I’m not providing field reports, I’m aggregating them. Which is obviously not in the trenches, but safely snuggled away, waiting for the reports to come rolling in.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Going back to my nyc anecdotes, again it cant be overstated-i was in very large venues, in a city where the (particularly black) male to female ratio is documented, where the performers appealed to a more upscale and older crowd (goodle raphael siddiq and eric roberson) and where the ladies were dying for the fellas to approach-and got nothing. I am saying to you and everyone else reading along, that weve created an environment where the very guys youre championing are saying that “the rents too damned high!”-and are voting with their feet. The costs of being the wrong guy when stepping to a gal, are very real; you could be tossed out of the venue, catch a beatdown or get locked up. No, guys arent gonna try to suss out the NAWALTs in the room-theyll simply say it aint worth it and call it a day. Keep in mind now, im giving you realtime field reports FROM NEW YORK CITY.

    Btw, if you happen to be an alpha in such an environment you can pretty much write your own ticket. One lady-a very good looking one i might add-blatantly hit on me right in ms brown sugahs presence, showing me a full view of her naughty bits right there in broad daylight in central park as siddiq did his thing. Without even trying i mustve chatted up about half a dozen ladies, just making small talk. Aside from the guys already there w/their ladies, all the single guys didnt say a word.

    Make the connection-nyc attracts lots of single women regardless of color-even amanda marcotte lives there, and i think thats a very important aspect of this discussion-and its because nyc is one of the most women friendly places on the planet.

    But it does have its drawbacks. Especially if youre a not terribly agentic guy.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Herb

    @Obs

    Now, we dont make that much of a big deal out of that as a society because of, i think, our collective sexual psychology; men do indeed have a lower sexual threshold than do women, and so we expect men to settle more than women.

    What we call settle today is what we call assortive mating here. After all, everyone wants a 10, even the 1s. Taking a 9 is technically settling even if it is more realistic. The past 30+ years have created a couple of generations of women who don’t want to settle and feel entitled to act out if they do.

    PUAs are just a generation of men saying, “fine, we won’t either and instead of settling we’ll just P&D.”

    Women cannot demand the right to complain if they are expected to settle in an era of sexual equality and then expect men to just “man up”.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Obs -

    It isn’t just African-American women who don’t select for intelligence, it is women in general, with the exception being, as you pointed out, Jewish women and Asian women, both of whose cultures have a higher-than-usual appreciation for raw cerebral horsepower.

    As far as the high-ranking brothers selecting the light-bright-almost-white, I wonder if this is the case in Africa or other societies where the white man is no longer on the top of the totem pole. I remember an Ethiopian woman looking down her [coal-black, narrow] nose at American black men because of the large amount of white genetic material they carried. She dated very dark-skinned American black men, Michael Jordan type guys, but, like Iman who she resembled, she married a white man.

    Any man who would prefer Kim Kardashian over Alek Wek, Rutina Wesley or India Aire would have me scratching my head. If my [half-cholo] son brought any of those women home, I’d be beside myself.

    I don’t understand the whole School Daze syndrome, but I have seen it in action among my daughter’s friends. Her dark-skinned friends do better with Mediterranean boys.

  • Herb

    @Royale W. Cheese

    After they run out of Kim Kardasians and Halle Berry’s maybe I’ll finally get a date to the prom! :)

    Pretty much 80% of men regardless of race hear you.

  • Ramble

    1. Strength & Conditioning
    2. MMA
    3. Extreme outdoor adventures (dangerous game hunting was #1; big-wave surfing and mountaineering were also mentioned)
    4. Tactical shooting

    I was actually at the huge UFC 100 event in Vegas with backstage passes, including the “Fashion Show” (long boring story as to how I got them). Anyway, I one of the girls I was hanging with was really into MMA to the point of doing some training herself (she barely weighed 100 lbs) and I am convinced that she simply liked being around the aggressive guys and really liked “training” with them (“OMG, you have pinned me down yet again.”)

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @ Susan
    The pigmentocracy in the Afro-Amaerican community is pretty much like the “hot blonde” ideal that self identified white people may be more intimately familiar with. There are tons of “exceptions,” but in an argument, the “gentlemen prefer blondes/ mulattoes” conclusion will always be argued the strongest. However, when you look around at the diversity of couples in your own back yard, the trend, no matter how well argued, doesn’t really matter.

    Where Obsidian gets it wrong is when he takes these broad trends and applies them heavy-handedly to my individual situation. Sure, what typical men do may contribute to a few experiences I’ve had, but they fall short of explaining some specific, unique interactions that actually matter to me. But this does not matter to Obsidian. I don’t bother to debate much with him (I reply most of the time, not debate), because any story I share will be dismissed as an unimportant exception. He is very predictable…or consistent and reliable…pick your adjective. lol.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “1. Strength & Conditioning
    2. MMA
    3. Extreme outdoor adventures (dangerous game hunting was #1; big-wave surfing and mountaineering were also mentioned)
    4. Tactical shooting”

    Hmm. Would a soldier do? If he was sufficiently a self-referential blowhard, perhaps?

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    I just wanted to comment on why guys fail with a “Beta Strategy” …

    It is my belief that two factors are driving these guys’ behaviours which are not really based in success in a modern dating envionment; romantic comedy movies and being taught traditional values in how to treat women.

    Romantic comedies involve highly attractive men who (often) have high status jobs, great personalities, and are remarkably confident who go to extreme lengths to worship women. They are fantasies that are marketed towards the 80% of women who don’t stand a chance with these kind of men and are not worshiped by any man. Attracting a woman using this kind of fantasy based strategy for the average guy will be no more successful than an obese woman using trying to attract a man using a playbook based on porno.

    “I’d like some hot sausage with my pizza”

    “Sorry, it looks like you have already had enough sausage. Can I get paid now?”

    The traditional values one is (probably) less obvious. I suspect that throughout most of western history women were expected to make rational decisions about who they were going to marry; and love was something that would develop over time. Demonstrating that you’re a nice guy, you will not beat her, you’re generous and tolerant, and countless other qualities are (likely) going to result in her choosing you. This is no longer true, and a man has to attract a woman before he has to demonstrate that he is relationship material; and this means that the qualities that men are being taught to demonstrate are the wrong ones.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Peppermint Panda

      Demonstrating that you’re a nice guy, you will not beat her, you’re generous and tolerant, and countless other qualities are (likely) going to result in her choosing you. This is no longer true, and a man has to attract a woman before he has to demonstrate that he is relationship material; and this means that the qualities that men are being taught to demonstrate are the wrong ones.

      Great observation.

  • modernguy

    May I ask your qualifications for judging UCLA an institution engaging in nonsensical research? Whose observations do you believe deserve more credit? Did you even read the post? Are you aware that Game itself is based on research like this?

    I’m a nobel laureate who’s been to the moon. Does that make it better? Anyone with a brain can see what these studies are. The first is a model, it takes an assumption and models the outcome. The second presents a false dichotomy.

    This is an exception fallacy. Not to mention confirmation bias.

    So who’s word are we supposed to take on it? Herbs who’ve wifed up former sluts and are hanging on to their sexless marriages with “emotional support”? Virgin college nerds? Let’s look at the guys who are actually successful with women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      Let’s look at the guys who are actually successful with women.

      I respectfully suggest that you find guys IRL who have what you want and learn from them. Some of the personalities online offering instruction are men with a poor track record of their own. Several have admitted their wives are not attracted to them, or that they have to keep their wives suspicious to keep them interested. Others have vented in frustration about their lack of success with women – it’s the women’s fault, naturally. If you can’t see behind the curtain, you have no idea what’s really going on. Even paying only superficial attention, I’ve realized that it makes no sense to seek wisdom from unsuccessful men. They trade in dominance, not having achieved prestige.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Back after my usual weekend break, so I only skimmed the comments here.

    On dominance vs. prestige, most of us “common folks” aren’t going become or to get with somebody who’s super high up on the prestige factor, so dominance is still what works to a large degree. I fully intend to have our son learn some game, not dark game, but light game like what my husband does. He is also going to teach our kid martial arts, shooting, sports, outdoor adventures, camping, tool use, etc.

    About black women who look like Royal W Cheese, I knew a few real life examples of such women married to nerdy white men. But that was a self-selected circle, since all of the guys worked in IT and played D&D and poker together. The wives weren’t light-skinned Beyonce lookalikes, but they were definitely college-educated and had high IQs.

  • Jonny

    “Women evolved to prefer cooperative, emotionally nurturing providers over physically dominant males”

    Hmmm…. I disagree.

    It’s not that women evolved. Its about women making a choice. Like you said before, it could be a choice about short-term dating over long-term dating.

    In the past with her status with her family’s resources and without birth control or abortion or a career, women had no choice. Every decision with who she selected for dating was a long-term mating choice.

    The issue of dominance is a modern concept. To say it is a evolution ignores the impact of feminism in the 20th century.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      It’s not that women evolved. Its about women making a choice. Like you said before, it could be a choice about short-term dating over long-term dating.

      But women did evolve, that’s not in question. The question is “why?” Pair bonding won out over promiscuity, and fossil remains show a clear demarcation of the era when reproducing males became noticeably smaller and less symmetrical. This was 1.5 million years ago, so a woman was undoubtedly more susceptible to her hindbrain then than she is today. Yet she began selecting men differently, radically differently at around that time. Much of natural selection is not gradual, but a swift and sudden shift in a new direction. It may very well be that’s what happened here, based on fossilized remains.

      This is what men find hard to accept – the female evolved preferences – which are not disputed in evolutionary bio or psych circles, btw – are just that. Preferences. As in, first choice. As in, not settling.

      If men are unsuccessful with women, they would do well to study all the female attraction cues, rather than rely on a 1987 discredited study that claims women like dominance, period.

  • Ramble

    Susan, please, speed dating is not a great way to understand female attraction triggers.

    Susan, I just realized my attitude sucked in that comment. My apologies. (There was no need to add that condescending “please”).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, I just realized my attitude sucked in that comment. My apologies. (There was no need to add that condescending “please”).

      Pish posh, no worries. I’m being called a dirty whore elsewhere :)

  • J

    The problem is that cohort of women is both broadly dispersed and generally older.

    Really? I have high hopes for my sons falling into the music cliques in college. My DH is a multi-instrumentalist and that always served him well with women.

  • Herb

    “Herbs who’ve wifed up former sluts and are hanging on to their sexless marriages with “emotional support”? ”

    Can we really find another term for loser guys. :) I’m getting hit from PUAs all the way to Star Trek.

  • Herb

    @J

    The problem is that cohort of women is both broadly dispersed and generally older.

    Really? I have high hopes for my sons falling into the music cliques in college. My DH is a multi-instrumentalist and that always served him well with women.

    I’m sure the insturment matters. Clarinetists pursuing a symphonic career just won’t be hot (hell, I spent a lot of time being told I must be gay).

    Sax players into jazz or funk and soul probably have better prospects.

    Then again, in this day and age does music matter as much except maybe for DJs and MCs. It seems to matter less and less who makes the beats in terms of getting laid. DJing, though, is all about free swag and free women.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    What you just saw from ms rwc is, with all due respect, the big problem with black america today. Instead of proceeding from the latest of what data has to offer as a first principle towards making crucial decisions, we instead fallback on subjective, emotive opinion and conjecture. She is right-i dont care to do such things. I am interested in getting results and to do that i need the most accurate information with which to make that happen.

    Everything ive said here today can be directly traced back to primary sources; none-NONE-of what ms rwc has said can be similarly traced. This is vitally important; one would expect more from a woman with an estimated iq of 140.

    Ms walsh and others here, know me; and i think they would agree that im not prone to attempting to make arguments based on very narrow, if even accurate parameters.

    The fact that the most people hair coloring is blone or some variation thereof, undercuts everything ms rwc has said on that score; the fact that black women in particular, spends about half a trillion dollars a year on “yaki” hair extensions and the like, is a testament of their resolve to respond to what black men have indicated they want most in women. That ms rwc couldnt even be bothered to read a book that very well speaks directly to her own situation, just goes to show how deep the aversion of actually being informed on things that matter (or should matter) to black america really is.

    Lasty, @mulechewingbriars: yes, yes, modern day africa is very much the same in this regard; indeed skin bleaching, hair extensions and the like exceed black americas. Steve sailer has discussed this on his blog and gives his reasons as to why it is; google his name, ghana and black women to find out more.

    O.

  • J

    Au contraire, ma soeur.

    You can rationalize around this all you want, but I’m honestly telling you that I identify with study as something that explains my own sexual behavior, and I have a quarter century relationship with a “prestigious” as opposed to dominant man to prove it. Susan, I imagine, has something similar–indeed I think most of the maried women on the blog do.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “But it wont change the truth anymore than ms walshs attempts to silence me will change *what high rolling brothas want in their women.*”

    Does anyone have any data on the correlation between “high rolling brothas” and IQ? Obsidian, if I read correctly, you’ve made the assertion that my preference is for the high roller, but if they do not represent the majority of highly intelligent men, then that assertion would be false.

  • J

    I guess it’s a question of who you want to attract. Prior to meeting DH, I dated a symphony musician for ages. I would have married him had he asked. (He incidentally has never married, but I see him around occasionally. He has offered free lessons to one of my sons, but it’s too weird to take him up on it.) DH played in a university orchestra. There ae social circles that revolve around serious music.

    I’ve never dated a rocker BTW, but I’ll confess to being one teen rocker’s second biggest fan. ;-)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms hope:
    Your comments are most interesting; i for one would like very much to examine to what extent your hubby has game, and if he is able to clearly distinguish dark game from “light” game. Perhaps you can explain a bit?

    As for you comments about the “rwcs” you personally knew-thank you, youve just validated everything banks said in his book “is marriage for white people?”. I think you would enjoy it.

    @herb:
    As a former turntablist let me tell you, it definitely gets the gals. Nuff said.

    @modernguy: bodyblow!-lets see how ms walsh will respond (if she can…)…

    @peppermintpanda: i think youre broadly accurate but i think you would like my post on game where i focus on traditional gentlemanly types like sidney poitier and cary grant. Just google my name and the words “makashi game”…

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “The fact that the most people hair coloring is blone or some variation thereof, undercuts everything ms rwc has said on that score; ”

    A quick Google search suggests that many reports estimate that only 2% of the world’s population is naturally blonde. If you don’t believe reports, then a simple text book Mendelian genetic cross will illustrate how recessive traits are masked by dominant ones. Hair color, while a multi locus trait, is expressed from a set of alleles where darker pigment is dominant. The less likely occurrence if two recessive alleles is required for penetrance of a recessive trait (e.g., blonde).

    I don’t understand how blonde preference is much different from the Afro-American situation, in the way you described it. A lot of women bleach their hair. A lot of black women buy straight/ curly hair.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    About the leader of nerds phenomenon: it is not as simple as being “dominant” when it comes to herding nerds. Nerdy people pay great attention to ability, skill and intelligence, and will not follow someone who’s coercive, aggressive, controlling incompetent and merely can bark orders.

    Maybe this is a part of the prestige factor, but with nerds it’s more about mutual interest and who wants to put in the work/time, because it takes a lot of work and time to lead in nerdy activities. Also, leading smart, opinionated people who are just doing something for fun, not real mony rewards, is very different from being a boss at work.

    Being able/skilled/excellent doesn’t automatically result in prestige either. Prestige implies some kind of wider fame or recognition, and not everybody wants to self-promote or likes being in the spotlight, and generally these accolades and recognitions build on top of previous ones. Coming from an introverted female perspective here, a lot of introverted men have trouble because of this. As a female, looks are enough to get me in the door. A male has to display and demonstrate.

    My husband is on the border between introvert and extrovert, only slightly leaning toward introversion. He is smart, but also confident in his own abilities. He told his boss at work that he was interested in a management position very quickly, and he has an aura of “benevolent leadership” about him which makes it so that other people tend to defer to him, and for most it’s a subconscious process. I was aware of this, and I was drawn/attracted to him because of it. That is the “x-factor” which a lot of other nerdy guys are missing when it comes to opposite sex attraction.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Very good question. Let me ask you this: i just mentioned a number of fairly high status black men:

    Raphael siddiq
    Eric roberson
    Kanye west

    Would you consider these brothas to be intelligent per your liking-and if so/not, why?

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Very good question. Let me ask you this: i just mentioned a number of fairly high status black men:

    Raphael siddiq
    Eric roberson
    Kanye west

    Would you consider these brothas to be intelligent per your liking-and if so/not, why?

    O.

    PS: @mulechewingbriars: please note that the realife michael jordan married a black woman who looked a far cry from iman-which again, just goes to validate my point…

  • J

    Royale–

    FWIW, I sympathize with your plight. I can’t speak to the race issue, but I know from personal experience how an IQ in your range narrows the pool of possible mates. It ain’t easy….

    Also, FWIW, I think you have a knock-out smile and an open and friendly overall mien that is attractive.

  • J

    he has an aura of “benevolent leadership” about him which makes it so that other people tend to defer to him, and for most it’s a subconscious process. I was aware of this, and I was drawn/attracted to him because of it. That is the “x-factor” which a lot of other nerdy guys are missing when it comes to opposite sex attraction.

    I can relate!

  • J

    I have heard women express a preference for tall men – but only from women 5’10″ and over.

    I’m petite. I prefer a man to be taller than I am, but that’s easy. My DH is on the short side of average.

    I wouldn’t want a man who was shorter than I am, but, outside the circus, that’s hard to find.

  • Joe

    @SW

    I’m well aware that many women on dating sites specify a tall height, but in my experience, the smaller guys do fine… I’ve theorized why before – they compensate with attitude/self-confidence, but I don’t know why it is. It would be very interesting to see data re sexual partners and how it correlates to height.

    Yeah – since I stand all of 5’0″ (no typo) I did have a dog in this fight, and I’m intensely curious. ;) Since I’ve been married – twice – to two beautiful women and dated a few others, I no longer worry about it.

    But I certainly did in my 20s. Lord knows how much alcohol I consumed. You can bet that I noticed women like “tall” men (and to me, 5’6″ was tall), and I bemoaned the fact for a lot of years. Uselessly. Unlike losing a few pounds or learning dance, there was nothing to be done.

    I don’t have advice about the things you can’t change, except maybe to not obsess over it. That does no good. So I did things that I like to do for the fun of it, which included three degrees (hum… a little dominance at work. Hum!), a couple of black belts (my first wife was rather impressed when I gave her a love-tap on the cheek – with my foot ;) ) and a rock ‘n roll band (hey, I just like to play guitar!).

    What’s really funny is that I’m not really particularly good at any of those things. I just enjoyed doing them. As a side effect, I met a few interesting people.

    And like I said, I married two of them and dated a few between marriages. I still can’t believe how good looking they were.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      What’s really funny is that I’m not really particularly good at any of those things. I just enjoyed doing them. As a side effect, I met a few interesting people.

      And like I said, I married two of them and dated a few between marriages. I still can’t believe how good looking they were.

      This is really interesting to me – by your own admission you dated women you seem to feel were out of your league, and your height clearly doesn’t explain it. So what does? You were interesting, fun, of good character (as evidenced by your many comments here). You never fell back on acting like an asshole.

      Indeed, let’s look at men who have been successful with women, and who are happy with their relationships right now.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    I am sympathetic to the plight of young males. I think the solution lies in correcting the Pluralistic Ignorance around hookup culture, and finding ways to bring the majority of males and females together, something that is currently not happening. I haven’t cracked the code on that, but I’m convinced that raising awareness is the first step. So that’s where my efforts are focused at present.

    I’m not sure correcting PI is sufficient. It is necessary but not sufficient.

    The reason I don’t think that will fix it is, as you have admitted, while only 20% of men and women are slutting it up the distributions are different. It’s mostly the top 20% of men but a broader spectrum of women.

    Correcting PI won’t change facts on the ground which are:

    1. Women gravitate toward dominant men
    2. Women will punch above their weight short term while having “fun”

    What is broken is we’ve age segregated society. In Hymowitz’s article on manning up she argued that men used to have gates they had to get through to move from boy to men. Who did she thing provided those gates? Boys became men by gaining the acceptance of men as a man. This indicates age unity. A great media example of this is Grand Torino.

    Hymowizt also argues girls become women by bleeding. If that’s all it takes to be a “woman” is it any surprise most women make bad choices.

    Until we revive the idea that becoming an adult is governed by adults and not by your peers the core issues will remain.

  • J

    Jeffrey Dahmer gets marriage proposals, and suddenly a blogger is writing about women getting wet for serial killers.

    So what does it mean that Amanda Knox and Lori Bembenek also got marriage proposals?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “Very good question. Let me ask you this: i just mentioned a number of fairly high status black men: Raphael siddiq, Eric roberson, Kanye west
    Would you consider these brothas to be intelligent per your liking-and if so/not, why?”

    I don’t really have enough information about them to go on. Kanye’s very public life doesn’t convince me that he harbors the type of intelligence I’m attracted to. I’m very turned on by the intelligence of Barack Obama.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Ok time to jump back in here.

    @ms walsh: madam-with all due respect-i know youre not going to do what you just did-and disregard what reams of academic data, which includes buss’, has to say about female preference for male height, just because YOU dont hear much about it? And since i know youve read buss, you know as well as i do about men and how they derogate each other?

    You know, ive found that a big huge problem in discussing these things with women is their aversion to anything that sounds “ugly”especially if it paints them as a group, in a bad light. You got on me for saying something that is observably true wrt ms rwc, but you go on to poo poo what i said about short(er) men getting the shaft by the ladies on the open dating market. I see them both as the same thing-each party failing to have something a clear majority of the opposite sex has indicated they desire most. I think women have a very difficult time being told ugly truths, especially about themselves-and the clear preference for height-along with what can only be rightly called blatant out and out hypocrisy for denigrating the desires of men-lie at the root of this aversion.

    Its a fascinating topic for further study and discussion.

    @ ms j, @ms hope:
    Like i said earlier-the problem here is that the betas are just as attracted to the hotties as any other guy; the problem is that he lacks what they most desire, and thus must settle for the second tier ladies. I think a big part of the discussion that gets left out is this-settling for someone is one thing; but being (sexually) attracted to them is something else. I think this becomes doubly problematic due to the fact that men overall have lower sexual standards when it comes to women vs the other way around; hence why both men and women adopt a kind of “suck it up!” stance wrt lots of the defacto loser guys of the smp.

    Also: do dis ms j, but what you think of ms rwc is irrelevant; its what men think that will carry the day. And like i said, high status black men have made their preferences quite clear.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      OK, I’ve got Evo of Desire open to the discussion about height. It is true that women prefer men who are “tall, physically strong and athletic.” Buss sees this as evidence that women seek a mate who will protect them from aggressive men who might engage in sexual coercion or rape, and prowess is a good predictor of this. However, we know that this preference is markedly more pronounced in cultures where violence is the norm. American women cite their ideal height for a marriage partner at 5’11″. Not short, certainly, but just slightly taller than average.

      Interestingly, Buss quotes evo psychologist Bruce Ellis:

      “Height constitutes a reliable cue to dominance in social interactions…shorter policemen are likely to be assaulted more than taller policemen…suggesting that the latter command more fear and respect from adversaries.”

      That really gets back to the heart of this post – which is that status is conferred by other males, and women respond to it. It may be that women observe that taller men are more likely to achieve prestige. Indeed, Buss states that in Western cultures, “tall men make more money, advance in their professions more rapidly, and receive more and earlier promotions. Few American presidents have been less than 6’0″.”

      If men determine social status via intrasexual competition, and women respond to that, then we may speak about correlations, but cause is obviously uncertain.

  • Herb

    @J

    So what does it mean that Amanda Knox and Lori Bembenek also got marriage proposals?

    Plenty of fucked up people out there?

  • J

    I’ve heard men say here that because they are a 3, and cannot feign attraction for a female 3, they prefer to GTOW. That’s fine – it’s honest, at least.

    It’s not fine; it’s tragic. The happiest marriage I know is between two 3s.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      It’s not fine; it’s tragic. The happiest marriage I know is between two 3s.

      Yes, it is tragic in terms of its being a waste. However, it’s better than a man who’s a 3 blaming female 7s for going for hot guys.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @J

    Thanks. That’s very sweet and made me smile even more. Any self-deprecating comments upthread were tongue-in-cheek.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Google & wikipedia is your friend. :)

    Also, i think your response may speak more to personal preference than actual assessment of intelligence; i think its fair to say that siddiq is highly intelligent for example; he just applied to the world of music.

    As for the hair thing…

    My bad, im typing from my phone; what i meant to say was that blonde or variations thereof is the most popular hair dye color for women; this again is consistent with evopsych principles. Men are drawn to sexual variety/novelty so this makes perfect sense.

    Lastly-and i truly hope ms hope (pardon the pun) etc are reading along-but the worst kind of nerd to be, is a black (male!) one. This is because unlike in the jewish or asian or even more generally white communities, there is no appreciable cultural outlet or market for a black nerdy male: sistas-and this includes even the socalled “awkward black girls” (who herself has seemed to be heading in the direction banks discussed per his book-getting with a white boy) dont (sexually) desire such a guy, and trust me, such guys are keenly (& bitterly) aware of this.

    yet another reason why i say-without fear of contradiction or rebuke-that overall, black women do not select for intelligence in their men…

    O.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    I was not referring to you specifically with the nightspot comment. It’s just that the ‘sphere takes much of its truth from that arena, and I personally think it’s limiting.

    I didn’t think you were.

    My broader point was single people have better direct knowledge. A married 30 year old who got married at 20 is more out of touch in many ways than the single 50 year old. He will also be more in touch (more single friends) in some ways.

  • Ramble

    please note that the realife michael jordan married a black woman who looked a far cry from iman

    He also went through, I believe, the most expensive divorce in history (at that time).

    I am sure she “earned” all $150 million.

  • Richard Aubrey

    J.

    “Au contraire, ma soeur.

    You can rationalize around this all you want, but I’m honestly telling you that I identify with study as something that explains my own sexual behavior, and I have a quarter century relationship with a “prestigious” as opposed to dominant man to prove it. Susan, I imagine, has something similar–indeed I think most of the maried women on the blog do.”

    I’m not talking about you nor am I rationalizing anything. I’m talking about the divergence between this work and the earlier thread. Which actually exists. It’s on Susan’s thread. You can look it up. There’s a divergence.
    And what I’ve said is part of what was said on that thread.
    Your first comment regarding this said “we”. Now it’s you singular.
    Your situation is fine for you.
    We weren’t talking about you.

    .

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    When I was told about the “realities of the sexual market,” I was under age of 11, pre-puberty. My mother and other female relatives admonished me to keep my demeanor feminine, not act like a boy, be quiet, stay skinny, be a virgin, and not be ugly. They told me that my skin was too dark, my build was too thick, and my face wasn’t pretty enough for me to be a beauty, so I needed to adjust my expectations. Also, they said that guys need to be 1.8 meters or taller (about 6 feet) to be good-looking. They really drilled in these messages, because I still remember them clearly.

    So the idea that women are not telling the “harsh and ugly” truth is culturally dependent. Asian women are stereotyped as being extremely sharp and critical, and the Tiger Mom personality is quite common from what I have seen and experienced. If it isn’t about looks, then it’s about academic achievement. I remember going to other Asian kids’ homes and having their mothers heap compliments on me, and asking their own kids “Why can’t you be more like her?” They also try to stay young-looking as long as possible, avoid the sun like the plague to stay pale, and generally “maintain face” in public.

    For what it’s worth, the men I dated have ranged from 5’10 to 6’4, and my husband is 6′, so yeah I have a thing for tall men.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’m petite. I prefer a man to be taller than I am, but that’s easy. My DH is on the short side of average.
    I had a friend that is around 5′ 2″ and she used to boast about this tall guy she was seeing when I met him I though he was short he was 5′ 6″ and I’m 5′ 8″ IME women don’t have an specific height beyond “at least 3 inches taller than me” I read that short women reproduce in greater numbers than tall ones, maybe because of that, YMMV.

  • Ramble

    Here’s a true statement: In four years of focus groups meetings, I have heard women express a preference for tall men – but only from women 5’10? and over.

    Susan, how many of those girls expressed an interest in douche bags?

    And, how many of those girls had at least one douche bag notched on their bed post?

    Most girls simply view it as, “the guy needs to be taller than me”, which can often translate to a very strong tingle for guys in the 6’2 to 6’4 range. But, like you said, the average guy getting married is of average height.

    Still, ‘Tall Dark and Handsome’ didn’t come from nowhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, how many of those girls expressed an interest in douche bags?

      That’s not the same thing at all, as they would have had no reason to suspect my disapproval re their preferred physical “type.”

  • Ramble

    I think you have a knock-out smile and an open and friendly overall mien that is attractive.

    I had to look that one up. I am guessing that put’s me below your IQ range.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Since you mentioned obama, please allow me to ask you:

    If he had married say, a woman who looked more like spike lees wife instead of michelle, would your assessment of him change? Would you still had voted for him?

    For the white folks reading along, it has been speculated that since black women makeup a clear majority of black voters had obama had a white or darn near white wife instead of a noticeably “sista” looing one in michelle, that he would not have gotten as many votes from the black electorate. I personally think this is accurate based on all the data and information-and that includes anecdotal-that we have from/about black women in general.

    Moreover we have to keep in mind that obama had not “arrived” at the time he met michelle; what i said about high status black men was in the context of selecting who they truly desire *after* achieving their success. Of course, like so many things obama, we may never know for sure, the left and the right of things on that score…

    O.

  • J

    For sure, Herb, for sure.

    And for all I hear in the ‘sphere about how men love that demure girl, Bambi was a documented slut and Amanda Knox either had that vibe or was simply painted like that in the media.

  • Ramble

    I haven’t cracked the code on that, but I’m convinced that raising awareness is the first step.

    Susan, it is important to remember (or learn) that a big part of the older female experience was to organize parties, hoedowns and get-togethers where young people would be in attendance.

    The mother organizing the party would guilt and brow beat her daughter to attend and then imply to the other mothers how great it would be if her “discriminating” son would attend (i.e. I think that your son is great, and, since he is discriminating*, he should invite his friends).

    Also, the mother of the daughter could “flirt” with that young single man in an attempt to come to her party. She could do this because,
    1. She is much older than he is.
    2. She is married (with children)
    3. She can’t lose. She is not looking to bed him and everyone knows that. She is trying to get him near her daughter and her daughter’s friends. And, her daughter has complete plausible deniability because there is the really good chance that she never wanted her mother to throw this party in the first place.

    Everyone wins.

    The older women get to throw the party and show off their taste. The younger girls get to play dress up. The young men get a chance at tail. And the older fathers get together on their own to play poker and feel out the fathers of the sons (or vice versa).

    Now we send girls off to college to NOT learn a skill and brag about how much they can drink.

    ========================

    * Being “discriminating” was once considered a very good thing. It still is, but now we are jumping through hoops to find new ways t express that simply thought. Political Correctness has done wonders for our collective efficiency.

  • J

    IME women don’t have an specific height beyond “at least 3 inches taller than me”

    Across ethnicities, the average man is half a head taller than the average woman, so “at least 3 inchs” sounds about right.

  • J

    I’m glad, Royale. I don’t say things I don’t mean BTW.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    “Do black women have a preference re pigment?”

    The answer to that isn’t 100% clear to me. Dark skinned/ kinky haired men and women have gotten (and still get) their share of outright disdain within the black community. However, recently there’s been a “tall dark bald” man meme, but I’m finding it hard to see it as much more than a fad. Pigmentocracy is certainly not gender specific. There is indeed a lot of deeply engrained stuff rooted in past race-status dynamics (which contradicts a lot of honest pure aesthetics…another discussion) that is still bubbling up to the surface in modern times.

    Obsidian stated that men who matter go for “high yellow” ladies. I’d add that men who *want* to matter go for high yellow ladies.

    “This is obviously related to consensual and non-consensual sex during the era of slavery, and as such must be a very loaded topic among descendants of slaves.”

    Extremely loaded, and the discussions are endless, and hackneyed. I prefer to observe and ponder the raw honest aesthetics of humans without wasting too much brain power on analyzing constructs that control typical behavior.

  • J

    You strike me as a pretty bright guy, Ramble.

    If it makes you feel better though, I’m not very spatial. My verbal IQ is one standard deviation above my verbal, and I sometimes have trouble orienting myself in space.

  • Herb

    @J

    And for all I hear in the ‘sphere about how men love that demure girl, Bambi was a documented slut and Amanda Knox either had that vibe or was simply painted like that in the media.

    I honestly don’t know who either of those women are to begin with, was just going on the assumption that they’re murders given what you responded to.

    @Ramble

    Now we send girls off to college to NOT learn a skill and brag about how much they can drink.

    And we send them without any imparted wisdom but advice to discover the world on their own.

    Which is where the freshman hookup who ignores her after fucking her gets his opening.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “If he had married say, a woman who looked more like spike lees wife instead of michelle, would your assessment of him change?”

    No. For what it’s worth, I like Colin Powell’s intelligence, too.

    “Would you still had voted for him?”

    Absolutely. He’s sharp and pragmatic.

    (A big “you LIE!” from Obsidian in 5, 4, 3, 2…)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Royale

      I’m with you re brainy guys. In fact, in the 80s I had a crush on then Budget Director David Stockman :P :

      ds

  • J

    I am sure she “earned” all $150 million.

    Hey, if he was a big enough pain in the ass, she might have. I used to joke that Anna Nicole Smith deserved every bit of alimony she got from that 90 yo she divorced. She worked hard for that money!

  • Herb

    @Susan

    If men are unsuccessful with women, they would do well to study all the female attraction cues, rather than rely on a 1987 discredited study that claims women like dominance, period.

    Yet, someone, those cues run the lives of women in 2012 more than they did in 1012.

    The question is why? Evolution can’t account for that change.

    BTW, men can also choose to GTOW. That is bad for women who have children (not want children, but have children).

    Why? The Fate of the Species Human Extinction

    I saw it at B&N yesterday and didn’t care. For me, my genes, extinction has already happened.

    If we return to 20% of the men having all the children it will be ugly. This isn’t a few thousand men in Africa at the bottleneck of human evolution about 70,000 BC. It would be over 3 billion men without any investment in their future beyond their own fun.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Yet, someone, those cues run the lives of women in 2012 more than they did in 1012.

      The question is why? Evolution can’t account for that change.

      True. Ogi Ogas actually states in his book that female sexuality is much more sensitive to cultural shifts than male sexuality is. There is little doubt that female hypergamy has exploded since the Sexual Revolution. Still, it is better to be aware of what’s nature and what’s nurture, don’t you think?

  • http://eradica.wordpress.com Firepower

    Female selection in America?

    SO THAT explains how wonderful things turned out.

  • Ramble

    If men are unsuccessful with women, they would do well to study all the female attraction cues…

    And ignore the message that a feminized culture had fed you (though, that is changing a little bit).

    And ignore the messages that your mother and aunts told you as well.

    In general, ignore the advice that the feminized adults gave you and make sure, on top of all of your other studies, to study this subject as well. I mean, you can’t expect your culture to be honest with you. Right?

  • J

    Herb–

    Lawrencia (Lori/Bambi) Bembenek was convicted of murdering her husband’s ex-wife back in the 80s. She achieved national noteriety based on her looks and former employment as a Playboy bunny. She had a huge male fan club that included a private detective that worked gratis to exhonerate her. Amanda Knox was acquitted by an Italian court on appeal of her roommate’s murder. Known as Foxy Knoxy, she too was popular among the menfolks.

  • Ramble

    No. For what it’s worth, I like Colin Powell’s intelligence, too.

    What about Ronald Reagan’s and Dwight Eisenhower’s?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms hope:
    Then your personal experience just validates (again!) all that ive been saying; we both know that it is highly unlikely to hear such things from a more homegrown american mom, black or white. Indeed a little while back ms walsh herself said that most american parents will not give their daughters the kind of “talk” you mom etc gave you, because its too damaging to said girls self esteem and two, because its a direct admission of genetic failure on the part of the parents themselves.

    @ms walsh:
    What i find fascinatoing about the entitlement argument is that it only seems to pickup steam when it comes to the supposedly overinflated desires of guys; the topic was a nonstarter so long as it stayed with women. Fascinating-and just goes to show yet again to validate evpsych. We truly do expect men to settle more than women. Hmm.

    Oh, and for ms j’s “tragic” response to the notion that a 3 guy cant get sexually aroused for a 3 gal-evopsych has proven that the more sexually desirable the female, the harder the erectile response on the part of the male, as well much more copious ejaculation. Simply put, a womans appearance matters-a lot. Im just sayin.

    @herb: just wanted to acknowledge your point about the black communitys missing dads and the peter pan syndrome amongst far too many of its men. Tru dat.

    Back to ms walsh:
    I am fully aware of your target audience and my response is the same: prove it. Not with anecdote but with hard data. I can give you all manner of data as it pertains to black usa what the deal is here and whose going home w/the ladies and who aint when it matters (women under 30), and this is important since even you recognize the creep from black usa to white usa in this regard. Again: what is the empirical data that proves that there is a market for beta guys in the under 30 cohort much of whom makeup your target market? Ill wait.

    You see, i do think theres such a market but for the over 30 crowd-the problem is of course, that most guys dont want to be option number two or three or four. Nor do they want mileage on the gal, her kids etc she had w/the alpha dude. So, until you or someone else can crack that nut, all this amounts to is an interesting (at best) academic exercise because young women want what they want and the beta guys, by and large, aint it…

    O.

  • Herb

    @J

    Amanda Knox was acquitted by an Italian court on appeal of her roommate’s murder.

    Oh, okay, I vaguely remember her.

    @Ramble

    In general, ignore the advice that the feminized adults gave you and make sure, on top of all of your other studies, to study this subject as well. I mean, you can’t expect your culture to be honest with you. Right?”

    No, you can’t. The major cultural institutions are run, for the most part, by those more interesting in remaking the world in accordance with their fantasy land than in accordance with reality. That the majority of men are collateral damage doesn’t register to them.

    For example, I remember in the 90s when the schools started to become so female focused writers speculating maybe we’ll just have to sacrifice a generation of boys to make it up to women when the fact that boys were falling behind.

    And look around you, they happily did just that.

  • J

    Yeah, SW, you’re right there.

  • Joe

    Susan, as much as I’d love to tell the story, I don’t think many here are all that interested in my dating history! But thanks for asking. I can say what worked for me (more or less).

    In a nutshell, my philosophy is to play the cards you’re dealt best you can. (and in so far has Game shows guys what cards they do have and how to play them I think it’s okay. If it’s trying to reshuffle the deck, I suspect it’s a sham.)

    I did date women who were out of my league, but that’s because I’m not particularly a coward. I saw plenty of rejections, but honestly, never a “nuclear” rejection. I can’t say I was unaffected – I really hurt. But it wasn’t deadly, you know?

    I don’t know if I’m really such a fun guy (although my wife says she does like my sense of humor!) or if I’m of good character (even if I am a church-goer in my middle age. Of all people, I know that means nothing by itself). I do believe I was lucky, more lucky than I deserved.

    It’s never going to be a popular observation to make, but I believe that’s true for most everyone too. I’m a firm believer in having patience and having faith, which is hard when you’re 20-something. BTDT.

    So I’d advise everyone to GIVE UP! YOU’RE HOPELESS!

    I was too. The good news is, it doesn’t matter, and you’re not the exception.

  • Zach

    I think dominance and asshole-ishness (for lack of a better, real word) are being conflated here. I also believe that a large part of the gulf is driven by womens’ misunderstanding of how men relate to each other. Of my group of 10 or so close guy friends, I would say that none are truly an asshole. Sure, sometimes we’ll say “yeah, Jack is such an asshole”, but it’s more in the sense of “haha what a jerk” than meant as a true statement of character. However, if you took a camera and recorded a 2 hour sit-down conversation between all of us (dinner, drinks, whatever), and played it back to a group of women, most of them would probably think we’re all assholes. Most men would think we were just regular guys. Men relate to each other in large groups with insults, jokes, put-downs, and one-upsmanship. Partly that’s just what we do, partly it’s so as not to show weakness (true emotion). It’s only in much smaller groups, or even one on one, that most men will actually open up emotionally to each other. And that is ONLY with closely trusted friends, or else they risk the “wow, Zach is such a wuss” reveal to everyone they know.

    On the other hand, most of these guys, especially the less “dominant” ones, put on a whole different face for women. They’re far more considerate, “nicer”, and accomodating than with the guys. For instance, if I asked a guy I knew to get me a glass of water, the responses would range from “get it yourself” to “are you f*ng kidding me?”. However, if a girl made the same request, the vast majority of my friends would get up off the couch to get one for them. I would never lump them into “nice guys” (at least most of them), but they turn into that when around women.

    Now for my “punch line” on the context issues I mentioned. The guys in this group who are the most successful with women (and the range is wide, from guys with an N of 2-3, to guys with Ns of 25+) are the ones who behave largely the same whether around women or around men. The ones who are not as successful are the ones who generally turn into the “nice” guys I mentioned above. However, as I noted the “asshole” distinction is applied almost universally by the WOMEN. Men don’t see most of this behavior (insults, one-upping, etc) as assholish. As a corollary, most of the guys who are successful with women have far fewer female friends than the ones who aren’t. Also, those fewer friends tend to be more attractive girls where there is more sexual tension in the relationship as well. The “nice guys” have lots of women who love them, but they love them like teddy bears, and who wants to sleep with a teddy bear?

    And before you go off on a “well the guys who are successful are just cads” be aware that every one of them has had multiple relationships that have lasted 2+ years, except myself (my longest clocked in at 8 months). I proffer the theory that this whole talk of “asshole” boils down to a difference in definition of that term between men and women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Interesting comment, and it doesn’t surprise me. I have a question – do you think women can “read” a difference in the way the guys with N = 2 rank among the males compared to the guys with N = 25? It seems to me that in this SMP, young males (esp. of the frat persuasion as you’ve said you are) might confer rank on one another based on N.

      I’ve had guys tell me that having a relationship in college hurts status among other guys, unless of course, the guy has a “relationship” and still gets some on the side, in which case he is “the man.”

  • Abbot

    “If we return to 20% of the men having all the children it will be ugly.”

    The Western SMP is just a latex membrane or a missed pill away from that scenario

  • Ramble

    That’s not the same thing at all, as they would have had no reason to suspect my disapproval re their preferred physical “type.”

    No, but it does speak to how aware they are of what it is that they are actually attracted to.

    Now, to be clear, I don’t blame them. But, in my experience, girls get just a little wetter for guys that are taller.

  • Zach

    Re: height. Quite true. I’m 6’4, 190, so not huge physically in the sense of a guy who’s 6’4, 225, but in bars I have a far easier time maneuvering through, as most guys will actually quite easily move out of my way to let me through. Also, I find I get apologized to for accidental bumps and drink spills far more often than my shorter friends.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      And I’m sure that women observe other men deferring to you. If you appear agreeable in your demeanor, that’s going to read as “prestige” rather than “dominance” (as defined in the study – obviously you are physically dominant).

  • VD

    I’m very turned on by the intelligence of Barack Obama.

    You must be turned on very easily then. Obama’s IQ is around 116. He’s not stupid, being a full +1SD above average, but he’s not even close to Mensa material. Even if one doesn’t trust my estimate, there is absolutely no way he can have an IQ over 128 due to his performance on the PSAT and SAT. The irony is that he’s not even as intelligent as the much-mocked George Bush, whose IQ is 126 based on his pre-1974 SAT score of 1206.

    Amanda Knox was acquitted by an Italian court on appeal of her roommate’s murder.

    Mostly due to the illegal African immigrant who confessed to it and was convicted of it. Knox was guilty of nothing but acting like an idiot after the murder. The case was a complete joke.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      The irony is that he’s not even as intelligent as the much-mocked George Bush, whose IQ is 126 based on his pre-1974 SAT score of 1206.

      I recall that John Kerry’s test scores and GPA were both lower than Bush’s, but that didn’t stop liberals from painting him as an intellectual.

  • Abbot

    “female sexuality is much more sensitive to cultural shifts than male sexuality”

    Maybe that is why feminists aware of this know to keep dishing out the pro-sex-poz messages or lose their constituency to the influence of men who seek satisfactory wife material.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Three additional points:

    @joe:
    I too, like ms walsh, am very much interested in more about the details of yor love life; for one thing, how old were the gals you married, how much taller where they than yourself and where did they objectively rate on the scale- 6 or above? What you say sounds great in theory but they dont call them “first impressions” for nothing-and many women, the more desireable and even not so desireable ones, can and will shoot you down based purely on what they see. All the things you mentioned about yourself wont count because you wont have time to display them-its all about that first impression. Youre short, end of story.

    So, by all means, do tell…

    2. @ms walsh:
    I definitely agree that dominance and low status of the male may indeed be correlated; the problem w/your advice is simply that by definition, all men cant be prestigious, anymore than all women can be pretty and beautiful. By definition somebodys going to be left standing when the music stops-such is life per evopsych and wont change no matter how much we dont like it.

    So the real question is: what do guys who dont have and arent likely to ever get “prestige” do? Or are they in a very real sense doomed?

    3. @ms walsh/ms rwc:
    Colorism is really a (black) female thing when you really get down to it-sure what ms walsh has noted in the earlier part of the last century etc notwithstanding, skin color impacts black women much moreso than it does black men for all the reasons ive been discussing since late last night. And yes it remains a very sore/sensitive spot for many a sista.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      So the real question is: what do guys who dont have and arent likely to ever get “prestige” do? Or are they in a very real sense doomed?

      I don’t mean to be glib, but I honestly have no idea. It depends on how you define doomed, I suppose. There are men in prison with no prestige, are they doomed? Are men lowering their standards doomed?

  • Herb

    Between Joe and the height thing now I have to give up my hopes of dating Gabrielle Reece.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Oh, & i just want to emphatically cosign what ms rwc said about aspiring black men selecting “high yellow black women”:

    Absolutely-they confer higher status than their darker skinned sistas. Nothing new there, but i imagine the pain is no less acute for the sistas on the outside looking in…

    Oh and btw, i suspect this is why the bw/wm marital rate is so low in comparison to say, the aw/wm marital rate (hope): because the latter (asian women) confers more status than a black woman to a white man. Again, we’re not supposed to notice these things much less discuss them in the light of day, but bang there it is…

    O.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    I’d say, at least in my experience, that in my group of friends cheating was very frowned upon. It was generally viewed as a lack of dominance, as in the guy didn’t have the testicular fortitude to man up and break up with his girlfriend, and so resorted to sneaking around like a scared little girl. As far as relationships being looked down upon, it depended. Depended on how hot the gf was, and how much the guys liked her (was she cool/fun/not nagging). Also depended hugely on the behavior of the guy in the relationship. If he still went out, drank hard, partied, introduced his gf’s friends to his single friends, etc, then no one really cared if he was sleeping with one woman or twenty. However, if the guy turned into a boring hermit while in the relationship, then yes he did get trashed for it.

  • J

    Obama’s IQ is around 116. He’s not stupid, being a full +1SD above average,

    You’re shitting me! I would have thought his verbal IQ, if not his total IQ, was sky-high! He certainly has a very high EQ and is unflappable, and that is probably more important than anything in terms of succeeding in politics.

    The irony is that he’s not even as intelligent as the much-mocked George Bush, whose IQ is 126 based on his pre-1974 SAT score of 1206.

    I’ve always assumed that Bush damaged himself with alcohol.

    Mostly due to the illegal African immigrant who confessed to it and was convicted of it.

    I’m aware of the confession, but I question everything that comes out of the Italian court system.

    Knox was guilty of nothing but acting like an idiot after the murder.

    To a certain extent, she was convicted on her aura of sluttiness.

  • VD

    Now for my “punch line” on the context issues I mentioned. The guys in this group who are the most successful with women (and the range is wide, from guys with an N of 2-3, to guys with Ns of 25+) are the ones who behave largely the same whether around women or around men. The ones who are not as successful are the ones who generally turn into the “nice” guys I mentioned above. However, as I noted the “asshole” distinction is applied almost universally by the WOMEN. Men don’t see most of this behavior (insults, one-upping, etc) as assholish. As a corollary, most of the guys who are successful with women have far fewer female friends than the ones who aren’t. Also, those fewer friends tend to be more attractive girls where there is more sexual tension in the relationship as well. The “nice guys” have lots of women who love them, but they love them like teddy bears, and who wants to sleep with a teddy bear?

    All absolutely true. Very few women can bear, with any degree of equanimity, the rough verbal affection with which male friends habitually communicate. Even fewer enjoy being around it; Spacebunny is an exception in that she actively enjoys listening to male banter and argument. Key word being “listening”.

    I just talked to my best friend in the States two days ago. This was the verbatim beginning of the conversation:

    Vox: Hey.
    Friend: Oh, hey, what’s up? I meant to call you.
    Vox: You don’t write, you don’t call….
    Friend: Yeah, well, the problem was –
    Vox: [Wife's name] found out you’re gay?
    Friend: Nah, what happens in the truck stop stays in the truck stop.

    I always find it amusing when I get off the phone after a long phone call and my wife asks how someone’s family is. I never have any idea. We don’t talk about that stuff. We might talk about who we’re keeping in our fantasy football league, the triumphant discovery of a computer bug, or the irony of how Sam Harris’s current theories about free will completely undermine the thesis of his previous book, but we don’t talk about that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I always find it amusing when I get off the phone after a long phone call and my wife asks how someone’s family is. I never have any idea.

      This is funny – even if there’s an important call or a crisis, my husband can be on the phone for a while, and when he gets off I ask him a bunch of questions. His response is almost always the same. “I don’t have answers for any of those questions.”

  • Ramble

    Again, we’re not supposed to notice these things much less discuss them in the light of day, but bang there it is…

    With no pun intended, it is actually a small minority that get worked up when someone attempts to say something honest. But, they get REALLY worked up about it and they will call you the worst names (in the most nuanced of ways, of course).

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @VD
    “You must be turned on very easily then. Obama’s IQ is around 116. He’s not stupid, being a full +1SD above average, but he’s not even close to Mensa material. Even if one doesn’t trust my estimate, there is absolutely no way he can have an IQ over 128 due to his performance on the PSAT and SAT. The irony is that he’s not even as intelligent as the much-mocked George Bush, whose IQ is 126 based on his pre-1974 SAT score of 1206.”

    What? Get the heck outta here! I would have never guessed, especially since Barack did such an outstanding job on his election-year interview with Nature magazine.
    http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080924/full/455446a.html

    Well perhaps there’s more to it than IQ. Maybe I’m a sucker for a man who appreciates science.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Susan #141

    I’ve been doing some research into traditional aboriginal family structures because I believe they’re more representative of what we would have seen in pre-history than the mythical despotic Alpha male tribe that has been portrayed in PUA circles. From my limited understanding of these structures women would select multiple men to have children with and the tribe as a whole would be involved in rasing these children (to an extent).

    I imagine why this approach died out in favour of monogomy is that communal structures do not scale well; and as a tribe grew much past 100 people the structural problems make it very likely that the society would collapse. I wouldn’t be surprised that these tribes devolved into a similar state that we’re in currently, where 10% of guys get 90% of attention to women, and the 90% of guys who were getting ignored killed off the players and “demanded” attention from women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Peppermint

      I was just reading about the ultimate failure of all societies that attempt to raise children communally. Apparently, the Israeli kibbutz only exists today as a tourist attraction – I had no idea. Parents want to raise their own kids. I know I did, I would never have put them in a pool to be shared.

  • Joe

    @O good points. To answer your questions, I was 28 when I met my first wife, she was not yet 26, and we married three years later. We divorced after 10 years together. Being as objective as I can be, she was, I’d say, about a 7. 6 on a bad day. Our sex life was fantastic. She decided to end the marriage when she discovered I was more interested in furthering my career than traveling the world. I do believe she met someone who was more interested in traveling.

    I met my current wife when I was 44, and she’s older. I would not be fair to put her on the scale used here, since we’re now both past that part of our lives. But I’ve seen pictures. She and her twin were objectively 9s when such things mattered. We dated for almost five years and celebrated our tenth anniversary last year, and yes, the sex was fantastic too. I’ll admit, we’ve slowed down, mostly due to that dreaded disease, A.G.E.

    You’re right about 1st impressions – clearly, the bar could never be my scene. But there are other places where 1st impressions count less and 2nd impressions count more.

    I was particularly successful at the health club, the office (where I was also very unsuccessful), the internet (striking up conversations much like I see people doing here) and at home, with “the girl next door”. In each case, there was time to establish a relationship that was not based on immediate gratification for either of us. In only one case was alcohol involved! ;)

  • Ramble

    He certainly has a very high EQ and is unflappable, and that is probably more important than anything in terms of succeeding in politics.

    Yes, I can remember how unflappable he was when he ran for president. I mean, The New York Times, CNN and all the rest really came at him with both barrels, asking him the hardest of questions. I can’t remember the last time a candidate was that tested.

    Oh, wait…

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I’ve had guys tell me that having a relationship in college hurts status among other guys, unless of course, the guy has a “relationship” and still gets some on the side, in which case he is “the man.”

    I think that’s largely a frat phenomenon.

    For most guys, getting a steady gf won’t hurt his status at all as long as he doesn’t become whipped (but unfortunately a lot of guys are conditioned to do just that).

    But on the note of frats, I think that actually blows up the idea that “prestige” is entirely given between males… In most schools I’ve been to, frat membership makes up a small percentage of the general male student population, and most of the non-frat guys don’t think too highly of their frat counterparts (they usually view them as assholes and douchebags, whether fairly or not). There’s obviously a lot of female choice going on to disregard the opinions of the majority.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy

      There’s obviously a lot of female choice going on to disregard the opinions of the majority.

      Frat members confers prestige via males in and of itself. By definition, those guys start out with a wad of prestige, and are largely oblivious to the poor opinion of other males, which often has an element of envy to it. Similarly, most women who hang with frats do so from day one, and so are generally similarly unaware. BTW, the number of women who hang with frats decreases dramatically as women advance through school – many more first semester freshmen than seniors.

  • J

    @PP

    I’m not surprised, really. Patriarchy and the invention of agriculture are linked.

  • J

    LOL, Ramble, but have you ever seen the man get angry? He doesn’t seem to, at least not on the outside. That’s a manful-looking thing and his biggest asset as a politician.

  • J

    His response is almost always the same. “I don’t have answers for any of those questions.”

    They never do.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Lol. I like your rhetorical dodges. Very balletic! :)

    Of course the men upstate are doomed; by definition they are out of the mating pool. Now when they return to society, things may change for them. It all depends on where they were coming from to begin with; its a known fact that having a prison record is no bar to getting women in black usa and some would say its a boon in that regard.

    As for men lowering standards? Id say yes. Its hard to see how a 3 man can keep up a longterm emotional, social and financial investment in say, a 1 woman. Or even a 3 woman. As ive just said, evopsych has proven that-pardon my being crude-the hotter the chick, the harder the…well you know the rest. So yes, a man settling for a noticebly homlier woman aint a good look.

    And i agree with your premise as per buss etc about men confering status onto other men; my question(s) become:

    Where is the evidence that beta guys under 30 are indeed in high demand from women in the same or younger cohort, and…

    What do men who cannot achieve/acquire “prestige” do? Seems to me that they go the more bluntforce dominance route, if they can.

    Makes sense to me…

    O.

  • Ramble

    J,
    1. Why would he…they fucking rolled him a red carpet.
    2. They fucking hated W, ho often did you see him get angry…or Reagan, or Bush 41?

    Clinton got perturbed every now and then and as best as I can tell, Carter was the last one to actually get angry. Though, it was rare.

  • Herb

    @VD

    Vox: Hey.
    Friend: Oh, hey, what’s up? I meant to call you.
    Vox: You don’t write, you don’t call….
    Friend: Yeah, well, the problem was –
    Vox: [Wife's name] found out you’re gay?
    Friend: Nah, what happens in the truck stop stays in the truck stop.

    Common start to a phone call with my friend Crazy J:

    Me: You still a faggot
    CJ: Depends, you still fat and ugly
    Me: Broke a mirror today so I guess you’re still gay

    Of course, now that’s homophobic at best instead of just male.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Royale W. Cheese,
    I cannot help but remark what a classy lady you are!
    Your intelligence shows – very much so.
    And I also think your smile is gorgeous, as J noted.

    @ SW,
    Yes, re the height thing, I concur. At 6 ft tall, I already tower over most men around me even in low-heeled shoes.
    I admit I don’t even ‘see’ men under 6ft3 as possible romantic partners :-)
    So I have never dated a man under this height.
    I don’t think this is unreasonable though…it’s not like I am 5ft 2 seeking a man of 6ft 6!
    I like to stand up straight when out and about with a man I am dating. If he is shorter than a certain height then I feel the need to compensate by slouching…
    Illogical, I know, (in the sense that I could choose not to slouch) but there we are…
    In this sense I very much ‘choose’ my father and all my uncles who are all very tall men.
    I would find it impossible to do otherwise.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      That makes total sense. One of the girls closest to me is 6′. Her mother was my best friend growing up – we were a funny pair at 5’3″ and 5’11″. She is very focused on both height and musculature. She often comments on a guy’s strong arms, back, etc. She wants to feel feminine and protected, and those things help.

  • Herb

    @Joe

    You’re right about 1st impressions – clearly, the bar could never be my scene. But there are other places where 1st impressions count less and 2nd impressions count more.

    To second this, I meet the gf when volunteering at SELF last year. She runs the vendor room and I was assigned to work for her. The layout was off and while she struggled I offered to fix it.

    Afterwards she pursued me as much as I pursued her.

    I think the secret in part was we were doing something not involving mating where I was able to show off competence and confidence. That allowed us both to be open to attraction without concentrating on it.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Susan,

    Communal was probably the wrong term …

    Essentially a woman would raise her children with the support of the whole community. Depending on the culture there was responsibilities of fathers and extended family, but the involvement would be far less than a kinship family or the modern nuclear family.

    I suspect that this structure worked well as long as the tribe was small enough, and women outnumbered men due to the disproportionate dangers of being a man in a hunter-gatherer society; but a society with roughly equal proportions of men and women that grew beyond the size of a traditional tribe would probably fall apart under such a structure.

  • Ramble

    …largely oblivious to the poor opinion of other males…

    This, I flat out do not agree with.

  • Alias

    The same discussions come up repeatedly, so I hope this is not too way off topic.

    To all:
    May I ask where does the– “only 40 % of men vs. 80% of women have successfully reproduced” that’s so often brought up come from?
    Was it perhaps a statistic that was only pertinent to a specific time period?
    Thanks.

    I’ve recently stumbled upon the following Census stats “Fertility of American Men”, which oddly enough, is the only one I’ve been able to find.
    Keep in mind, that the %ile of female respondents was a bit higher than that of males.

    Percent of American Men (Women) reporting to have *NO* children in 1992

    Men
    18-19 — 97.5 %
    20-24 — 82.8 %
    25-29 — 59.1 %
    30-34 — 38.6 %
    35-39 — 28.1 %
    40-44 — 18.9 %
    45-64 — 12.6 %
    65+ — 14.1 %
    Total for men 18+ = 33.8 %

    Women
    18-19 — 84.9 %
    20-24 – 65.6 %
    25-29 – 42.4 %
    30-34 – 24.1 %
    35-39 – 18.9 %
    40-44 – 16.4 %
    45-64 – 10.8 %
    65+- – 15.5 %
    Total women age 18+ = 26.0 %

    http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0014.pdf

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Lol. I like your rhetorical dodges. Very balletic! :)

    Of course the men upstate are doomed; by definition they are out of the mating pool. Now when they return to society, things may change for them. It all depends on where they were coming from to begin with; its a known fact that having a prison record is no bar to getting women in black usa and some would say its a boon in that regard.

    As for men lowering standards? Id say yes. Its hard to see how a 3 man can keep up a longterm emotional, social and financial investment in say, a 1 woman. Or even a 3 woman. As ive just said, evopsych has proven that-pardon my being crude-the hotter the chick, the harder the…well you know the rest. So yes, a man settling for a noticebly homlier woman aint a good look.

    And i agree with your premise as per buss etc about men confering status onto other men; my question(s) become:

    Where is the evidence that beta guys under 30 are indeed in high demand from women in the same or younger cohort, and…

    What do men who cannot achieve/acquire “prestige” do? Seems to me that they go the more bluntforce dominance route, if they can.

    Makes sense to me…

    @joe:
    Thanks for taking the time out to answer my queries. I just think that one major reason why a lot of people have problems w/evopsych is because of its brutal, ugly conclusions, especially when it comes to mating. Simply put, being a shorter man means being at a decided disadvantage out on the open sexual market. There is no getting around this no matter how much we may try to deny it or euphemize it. Yes, it can be mitigated; but what woman want and desire are quite clear.

    The bar scene is hugely important because thats where the hottest chicks are, fullstop. Its perfectly fine to have a preference for something else-i for one dont any problem in the least with that-but i grow weary of not being able to simply and bluntly say what everyone can clearly see with their own eyes. The club scene is the modern day mating grounds and it doesnt suffer fools. Yes, there are other “grounds” but lets be honest-the aggregate sheer physical quality of whats on offer in such places can go down. This matters to males especially younger ones for what should now be obvious reasons.

    O.

  • In passing

    @Obsidian
    Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman? I’ve asked this question so many times, and all I get are defensive, evasive answers. Wouldn’t it make more sense that the two of them get together? I get it that many woman fight outside of their weight classes in the SMP, and that kind of skews things. But I guess my question is why is it viewed as this completely horrible thing (I believe you used the word ‘doomed’ to describe a man who can’t a desirable woman) for a guy to link up wih someone who can offer him exactly what he offers her?

  • Alias

    #200

    Forgot to add that the first column is the age brackets, I’m sure most will figure that out.

  • J

    IDK, Ramble, I’ve seen Obama in situations where I thought a man might lose his cool, and then he didn’t. I can’t really think of specifics though at the moment. Lest you think however that this is an Obama supporter thing, I am actually somewhat disappointed in him. He had an opportunity to be a modern day Roosevelt by putting people to work improving the infrastructure of the country, and he wasted time on a failing health care initiative instead.

    W didn’t strike me as a paragon of self-control. He would get sort of ineffectually snarky. Remember the comment about his owning a forest during one of the debates. It was silly and embarrassing.

  • J

    Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman?

    Because he is sooo much better off masturbating into his own hand while thinking about a 10 than he is having a real relationship with someone as homely as he is.

    One manosphere blogger, a keyboard “alpha,” once said that he had contempt for his current gf, whose SMP was similar to his, because she reminded him of his own lack of value. I think that says it all.

  • drunicusveritas

    @Susan Walsh I have been accused of being unfair to players and cads …
    And a bit unfair to the beta boys, as well. This article and this study seem to suggest that “players and cads” are selected only for “short-term mating,” and what man would want that, while those lovely, kind, sensitive, generous beta providers win the very dubious prize of marriage – all while she’s lustily dyeing the strapping young pool boy, or the hulking, gym-honed fireman.
    Meanwhile, beta boy is happily providing for his mate and her offspring – buying a house, cars, tuitions, etc – while the cad gets the sex.
    Beta boy probably imagines she actually IS attracted to him – in reality, she likes very much his “resources,” if not his sexuality.
    Can anyone at all see how insulting this is to “beta” men?
    Pardon me while I pump some more iron at the gym, and hone my DB skills. This beta isn’t going to be such a sucker.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @drunicusveritas

      This article and this study seem to suggest that “players and cads” are selected only for “short-term mating,

      How so? Dominant males were not desirable for short- or long-term mating. If you’re talking about the first study I mentioned, which describes the evolution of female sexuality, I don’t understand the problem. The study is billed as answering the question, “Why do women prefer beta males?”

      If you can understand that it’s important to women that men stick around, then it makes sense that women would have adapted to prefer men who stick around. That preference is manifested in the form of sexual attraction. Women evolved to be sexually attracted to men who stick around. Furthermore, women are turned off by hypermasculine features and behaviors, as they signal a low likelihood that the man will stick around. Also clearly demonstrated.

      What women like best are men with high prestige who stick around. That’s the highest tingle producer, right there. What women like least are domineering men, who wouldn’t stick around anyway.

      All of this speaks to biology. It does not address the issue of culture, though I did address how prestige and dominance can become conflated in the college environment, especially for athletes.

      Honestly, I’m just reporting the results of four studies here. My aim is to get at some approximation of how things really work, not soothe egos. That would be blatantly dishonest and manipulative.

      I’ve reported before in some depth about Dark Triad men – what they prefer, and why, as well as what kinds of women prefer them. It is what it is.

      There is no one-size-fits-all. There are plenty of women who don’t pursue a short-term mating strategy. Those who do are most likely to select men similar to themselves in terms of dopamine response, including risk seeking and novelty seeking, as well as disagreeableness and low conscientiousness.

      It seems to me that the only way this is bad news is if you are a beta male and want to bed women of that description.

      Hmmm, now that I’ve said that I see the problem. Some beta guys do very much want to bed women of that description. I guess they’ll find out how far Game can take them – if that’s your strategy, Go Dark and go Asshole – all in.

  • Jason773

    Zach,

    I think dominance and asshole-ishness (for lack of a better, real word) are being conflated here. I also believe that a large part of the gulf is driven by womens’ misunderstanding of how men relate to each other. Of my group of 10 or so close guy friends, I would say that none are truly an asshole. Sure, sometimes we’ll say “yeah, Jack is such an asshole”, but it’s more in the sense of “haha what a jerk” than meant as a true statement of character. However, if you took a camera and recorded a 2 hour sit-down conversation between all of us (dinner, drinks, whatever), and played it back to a group of women, most of them would probably think we’re all assholes. Most men would think we were just regular guys. Men relate to each other in large groups with insults, jokes, put-downs, and one-upsmanship. Partly that’s just what we do, partly it’s so as not to show weakness (true emotion). It’s only in much smaller groups, or even one on one, that most men will actually open up emotionally to each other. And that is ONLY with closely trusted friends, or else they risk the “wow, Zach is such a wuss” reveal to everyone they know.

    On the other hand, most of these guys, especially the less “dominant” ones, put on a whole different face for women. They’re far more considerate, “nicer”, and accomodating than with the guys. For instance, if I asked a guy I knew to get me a glass of water, the responses would range from “get it yourself” to “are you f*ng kidding me?”. However, if a girl made the same request, the vast majority of my friends would get up off the couch to get one for them. I would never lump them into “nice guys” (at least most of them), but they turn into that when around women.

    Now for my “punch line” on the context issues I mentioned. The guys in this group who are the most successful with women (and the range is wide, from guys with an N of 2-3, to guys with Ns of 25+) are the ones who behave largely the same whether around women or around men. The ones who are not as successful are the ones who generally turn into the “nice” guys I mentioned above. However, as I noted the “asshole” distinction is applied almost universally by the WOMEN. Men don’t see most of this behavior (insults, one-upping, etc) as assholish. As a corollary, most of the guys who are successful with women have far fewer female friends than the ones who aren’t. Also, those fewer friends tend to be more attractive girls where there is more sexual tension in the relationship as well. The “nice guys” have lots of women who love them, but they love them like teddy bears, and who wants to sleep with a teddy bear?

    And before you go off on a “well the guys who are successful are just cads” be aware that every one of them has had multiple relationships that have lasted 2+ years, except myself (my longest clocked in at 8 months). I proffer the theory that this whole talk of “asshole” boils down to a difference in definition of that term between men and women.

    Nothing really to add, just wanted to say great post. Pretty much agree with everything you stated, with the part about female friends being very poignant, at least in my experience as well.

  • J

    “only 40 % of men vs. 80% of women have successfully reproduced” that’s so often brought up come from?

    It’s a meme. It came up on Roissy a few years ago and was quickly discredited by a commenter named Polymath, who was, I believe, a professional statistician. Yet, zombie-like, it revives itself on a regular basis. Nothing can kill it; it does not respond to either logic or garlic.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, David Stockman was and is a huge asshole, so I am not sure your crush disproves the “chicks dig jerks” thesis.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, David Stockman was and is a huge asshole, so I am not sure your crush disproves the “chicks dig jerks” thesis.

      Really? I had no idea! I just thought he was cute and nerdy. That’s very disappointing. Please don’t tell me Paul Gigot is also an asshole – he’s my other celebrity crush.

  • pennies for sale

    Because he is sooo much better off masturbating into his own hand while thinking about a 10 than he is having a real relationship with someone as homely as he is.

    He is, if the homely woman fancies herself to be a six because she can still attract above average men., which is pretty much a universal truth. She’ll never respect him because she’ll see herself as settling and will treat him like garbage at every opportunity.

    If you’re an ugly guy who wants to be a beta provider in a sexless relationship with a nagging shrew, by all means go for a woman of similar objective attractiveness.

  • Herb

    @In passing

    Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman?

    I don’t know, but probably for the same reaosn homely women aren’t attracted to homely men.

    The only advantage men have in this game of shooting high is they’re honest and that’s dying. Right now culture tells a a fat 3 she deserves her 10 just like every other woman. So that woman isn’t attracted to her fellow 3 but doesn’t need to ask herself why because she deserves the best.

    Meanwhile we castigate the male 10 for not wanting the female 3, the male 3 for wanting the female 10, and the male 3 for not wanting the female 3.

    If the sexes are equal and women should have the best no matter what, why are we surprised men react the exact same way.

  • Escoffier

    The 80%/40% figure covers tens or hundreds of thousands of years of pre-history. It’s not a record of current demographics.

    I was not aware it had been discredited. It is certainly not something Roissy made up, he got it from a scientific paper that based it on DNA analysis.

  • Ramble

    IDK, Ramble, I’ve seen Obama in situations where I thought a man might lose his cool, and then he didn’t.

    W may have gotten silly at times, but I never saw him get angry. And they actually pestered him with some real questions.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    …largely oblivious to the poor opinion of other males…

    I’m with Ramble, I disagree with this 100%… It’s not like frats are secret societies shrouded in mystery. Everyone heading into college knows the score.

    Frat members confers prestige via males in and of itself. By definition, those guys start out with a wad of prestige.

    Now I don’t disagree with this at all.

    But again, my point is that the prestige isn’t coming from being liked or respected by the vast majority of their peers (as athletes usually are). It comes from having sexual success with attractive members of the opposite sex, and by having high social status/dominance.

  • Alias

    J
    “It’s a meme. It came up on Roissy a few years ago and was quickly discredited by a commenter named Polymath, who was, I believe, a professional statistician. Yet, zombie-like, it revives itself on a regular basis. Nothing can kill it; it does not respond to either logic or garlic.”
    ———–

    Yummmm garlic! + it wards off vampires!
    (Watch Anacaona sweep in on 1, 2, …. )
    Thanks J.
    Only a meme?
    If I had nothing better to do with my time, I might follow up on some of these.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “I think dominance and asshole-ishness (for lack of a better, real word) are being conflated here. ”

    This happens often when dominance is discussed.

    The ideal man with this trait is dominant, NOT domineering. He expresses his needs but isn’t needy. He is self-confident, self-assured, excited by challenges and is not afraid to stand alone sometimes. That, to me, is the dominant man.

    Because of the connotations of dominance, we tend to get caught up in semantics and people often picture abusers, gangsters and thugs. That point of view is often brought into play by women, because they resent being abused or treated as second class citizens, and “nice guys” because they need to make someone responsible for not asserting themselves with the women who passed over them.

    Do lots of women run off with the jerk or the “bad boy” that treats them wrong? Of course. But to downplay the importance of dominance in a relationship due to these connotations is taking ones eye off the ball a little.

    To boil it down to a biological standpoint, dominance is important because it’s the trait in a man that makes a woman feel safe, secure and sexy all at the same time.

  • Alias

    Escoffier:
    “The 80%/40% figure covers tens or hundreds of thousands of years of pre-history. It’s not a record of current demographics.”
    ——–

    We’ve come a long way, Baby?

  • Zach

    @Jason

    Thanks for the kind words. Another little bit of color re this topic. One of my roommates is a really nice guy with girls, a lot of fun, and pretty funny too. He also, around guys, gives every bit as good as he gets (ie a 5-minute “you know how I know you’re gay” rant to a friend of ours we saw with roller blades the other day). Girls LOVE him. They can’t stop talking about how “great” he is, and always want to hang out (in fact when we have pregames, probably 75% of the girls are there because he invited them, not me). The punch line: all these girls tell me “we need to find your roommate a girl! He’s so great!”. My immediate response: well if you think he’s so great, as you obviously do, how about you? The hemming, hawing, and “clarifying” that follows is usually a pretty comic sight to behold.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      How good looking is your friend-zoned buddy, especially in relation to the rest of you? If he was hot, this would not be an issue. I’ve seen this guy in a bunch of groups, and occasionally they’ll get lucky when a girl gets a “personality crush” on them. I’ve seen that happen, and in every case the guy couldn’t handle it if the girl was way out of his league. Being the least attractive member in a group is never a good idea.

  • Passer_By

    Maybe this was already stated, but I am very skeptical of any study in which women read descriptions of men, and then answer questionnaires. They would tend to answer as their frontal lobe tells them they are supposed to answer. Plus, those conducting the study and writing the descriptions would be inclined to use descriptive language that dictates the outcome. If they had described the forcefully dominant men with language from a Harlequin romance novel, they might have found a different answer.

  • Passer_By

    I haven’t read the Obsidian/RWC debate, mostly because I never have the patience to read anything written by Obsidan. Nonetheless, Royale W. Cheese, solely by virtue of having the best new posting name seen here in quite a while, wins this debate hands down.

  • Herb

    @Alias

    The same discussions come up repeatedly, so I hope this is not too way off topic.

    To all:
    May I ask where does the– “only 40 % of men vs. 80% of women have successfully reproduced” that’s so often brought up come from?
    Was it perhaps a statistic that was only pertinent to a specific time period?
    Thanks.

    Genetic testing and rollback. There is some statistical trickery to project change in genomes over time.

    For women they primarily look at mitorchondrial DNA (because it can only come via the mother). For men they look at Y chromosomes.

    One of the biggest things to come out of this is the difference in the time between reproductive bottlenecks. Mitochondrial Eve is estimated to 200,000 years ago while her male counterpart, was more recent. Current thinking is 142,000 ya although the older estimate was an even shorter 60,000.

    Clearly, for that divorce to be clear we had lots of men over a 50,000 year span who had no children.

    I haven’t seen a more detailed reference on modern societies but I suspect the ratio for the sexes is closer. One hallmark of monogamous societies is men will reproduce at roughly the same rate as women. This fact is used to pull men into those societies. The black inner city and Mormon polygamous communities are a good place to look to see what happens when this isn’t true (reading about Mormon disposable boys from these communities is heart rending…well, apparently not to most people but they are to me).

    Finally, be careful on your census stats. They’re not quite apples to apples. The 40/80 results are genetic over human history. Certain history is one part of the difference but the genetic nature is as well. If I adopt or have step children I might report as having kids on the census. Plus, there is cuckoldry, but I suspect steps have a bigger impact. Many men with steps don’t have kids of their own while the mothers with steps usually do. So, some children might report twice but especially for men.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman? I’ve asked this question so many times, and all I get are defensive, evasive answers. Wouldn’t it make more sense that the two of them get together?”

    In a “fair,” split everything 50/50 type of world, this would be the case. The reason it’s not the case stems from our motivations.

    A man’s primary motivation in a woman is physical. Appearance and sex. That’s not to say that other factors aren’t important, but for most men, physical is the make or break.

    Women are less shallow than men in that regard, in that while physical appearance is important, the way a guy carries himself, speaks, dresses, takes care of business, demands the respect of others, etc can EASILY make up for not looking like a movie star. Those are dominant traits that rack up more “points” for a guy than just having a pretty face.

    Men are a little more cut and dry.

    While we appreciate all of those wonderful traits that make a woman tick, we unfortunately will never find them out if the woman isn’t attractive to us.

    Since the “marketplace” is set up so that men place high importance of looks and sex, while women place high importance on the “manly” traits outside of physical appearance, what you’ll find is guys, ugly or otherwise, going out looking for beautiful women, and women, beautiful or otherwise, going out looking for manly men, regardless of how they look.

    And since ugly guys have been able to display those manly traits and pull beautiful women since the beginning of time, he’d be doing himself a disservice by limiting himself to only homely women.

    On the flip side, a homely woman doesn’t have that same luxury, since men place more importance on the physical.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “I haven’t read the Obsidian/RWC debate, mostly because I never have the patience to read anything written by Obsidan. Nonetheless, Royale W. Cheese, solely by virtue of having the best new posting name seen here in quite a while, wins this debate hands down.”

    Awesome.

  • Herb

    @J

    It’s a meme. It came up on Roissy a few years ago and was quickly discredited by a commenter named Polymath, who was, I believe, a professional statistician. Yet, zombie-like, it revives itself on a regular basis. Nothing can kill it; it does not respond to either logic or garlic.

    Less killed and more shown to not have immediatacy.

    Genetic diversity is higher in mitochondria than Y chromosomes and runs back further. The only way for that to happen is for more women to have decendants than men.

    The more important question is how that occurs in paleolithic, neolithic, copper age, iron age, classical, medieval, industrial, and post-industrial societies.

    I suspect as wel move closer and closer to the medieval period the ratios converge and hold relatively steady until now. I suspect we’re seeing the ratios diverge in the West although to what degree I won’t speculate.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Because he is sooo much better off masturbating into his own hand while thinking about a 10 than he is having a real relationship with someone as homely as he is.
    —-
    J,
    So very funny. I see these men all of the time when I am out socializing and they are often standing in a corner alone looking pitiful while completely ignoring the women that are in their leagues. After a while, they will summon up the courage to hit on a woman way out of their league, and of course he is rebuffed and then it is time to go home and do what you mentioned in your hilarious comment.

  • PeppermintPanda

    “Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman?”

    In normal times I don’t think it would have been that hard but we do not live in normal times …

    With obesity rates as high as they are, most women who are a 4 or below are obese; and 3 and below have class II or higher obesity. Up until about 30 years ago the average 3 man would probably have accepted a class 3 woman because she would still have been sexually attractive to a point, but obesity at that level really eliminates physical attraction to women for most men.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Maybe this was already stated, but I am very skeptical of any study in which women read descriptions of men, and then answer questionnaires. They would tend to answer as their frontal lobe tells them they are supposed to answer.

    Agree 10000%… and I honestly wouldn’t just limit it to women. The vast majority of people are going to give the answer think they’re supposed to give.

    As someone who’s currently spending a lot of time collecting data from surveys for my Master’s thesis…. I think it’s largely bogus. At least in social science.

    The only real way to get legit data, IMO, would be to have a way to see who guys and girls are actually having sex with, orbiting, watching porn of, etc.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t know if this is true of all men, but in my case, looks were never primary. I would instead use the phrase “necessary but insufficient.” I would never choose a girl based solely on looks but I would rule them out on that basis alone. And, if I made a mistake, I was far more likely to give the pretty but otherwise unsuitable girl a shot rather than the ugly girl of sterling character. But I wasn’t out insisting on 10s either, Liza.

    At one point I was hanging around a certain crowd and there were two elligible girls sort of in my orbit. One was clearly into me. I called her “plain & stable” (not to her face). The other (“beautiful & flighty) I was into. I could not make myself attracted to P&S no matter how hard I tried. I never really pursued B&F because I knew she was bad news.

  • Passer_By

    @in passing

    First, welcome cousing.

    Second:

    “Why is it so hard for a homely man to be attracted to a homely woman”

    In my observation, the opposite is more true – at least in terms of pure sexual attraction. In other words, if you took 1,000 randomly selected men, and 1,000 randomly selected women, each in their early 20s, and then had each sex rank the other according to general desirability (physical attractiveness, social dominance, etc.), I think the male who ranks around 750 out of 1,000 would be substantially more physically attracted to the female of the same rank than she would be to him.

    Now, the question is, is the female ranked 750 worth it for the similarly male to pursue for a realtionship, given all the potential negative consequences of an LTR for a man? Maybe not, I dunno.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Passer_By
    “Nonetheless, Royale W. Cheese, solely by virtue of having the best new posting name seen here in quite a while, wins this debate hands down.”

    Thanks! :D

  • Escoffier

    Gigot has a titanic ego but he has better manners than Stockman. Gigot, like lots of such people, is used to being the highest status person in any room he is in and used to basically directing the convesation at will. He is not an asshole but it can get exhausting, we all know people like that.

    Stockman is a Class A know-it-all jerk. And, if you ask me, his bitter memoir was a massive DLV. Lots of whining in there about all the battles he lost. Perhaps the archetypal Washington “If only they had listened to me!!” tome.

  • Passer_By

    Err, that should read “welcome, cousin”

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @passer by:
    Lol-i think its fair to say that your “debate judging” skills leave much to be desired; glad to know that i get under your skin so very well, though. ;)

    @in passing:
    The answer to your question lies in the pages of prof david buss’ “the evolution of desire” and “evolutionary psychology”, third edition. He makes it all very clear.

    Let me also just emphatically cosign what has already been noted: that women arent castigated for their desires, indeed our culture seems to celebrate/encourage it; while such disdain seems to be reserved for men. As ive said before, i think this is just our sexual psychology playing itself out here; because men overall have long had a record of lower sexual standards in relation to women, both men and women simply expect men to settle more than women. Of course what they dont get is that the lowered sexual standard only holds true for *short term* mating; longer term, the physical attractiveness of the female (especially facially) becomes much more important for the male.

    This is why in game circles, its recommended that a man get with a woman at least a full point above him in relative attractiveness. My rule says “two”.

    This ensures his longterm investment in her; otherwise, nothing doing.

    As for the 40/80 thing…

    Again, check your david buss; down through human evolutionary history, there have been twice as many bachelors as spinsters. This reflects the truth of both sexual psychologies of male and female as per my comments above.

    O.

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “we had lots of men over a 50,000 year span who had no children.”
    ———

    Yeah, that was my question, if it was specific to a time period.

    Re: stepfathers
    from the report:
    “This is the first report issued by the Census Bureau focusing on the fertility patterns of American men.”
    “the only fertility question asked of men was about the number of children they had ever fathered.”

  • Escoffier

    Anecdotally, I have some problems with this post. It reads to me like one of those things we all wish were true, because it would make the world a better place, but it does not comport with observable reality as I have lived and seen it.

    I know and have known no shortage of guys who would fit the “good” description of dominance yet who were never that attractive to women. What they lacked, in game terms, was alpha swagger even if they had all other material signs of success and were very successful at leading their own male groups. I can use myself as an example, I can think of at least two extended periods (two years each or so) during which I was the pretty clear leader of a group, one mixed the other almost entirely male. In the first instance I had a steady GF so I wasn’t really hunting for chicks. However, in the period before I landed her I had not done well at all. Also, she was not part of the group in question and really had little to do with it. Plus, the females within the group showed no romantic interest in me at all.

    The second time I also had very limited success. Though I did meet my wife during that period it was toward the end.

    As limiting as they can be, sometimes the old and tried “alpha/beta” categories explain things better than more sophisiticated models.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier, @Passer By

      First, an interesting article about social science research:

      http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/how-reliable-are-the-social-sciences/

      My own feeling is that no one study can or should be believed. I rely on a wide variety of sources, including testimony and personal anecdotal evidence from others.

      Still, I feel that social science research has value for several reasons:

      1. The best minds at the best research universities in the country often are behind it. These are not fools with a political agenda. Particularly in the realm of evolutionary study, there is considerable disincentive to placating feminists.

      2. They are asking interesting questions about human behavior, and sometimes they come up with interesting answers. In truth, social science research is the only source of new information and subsequent debate on any SMP-related topic. I find it useful to explore new avenues of research rather than retread the same old paths again and again.

      3. While asking people about their sexual preferences, desires and behaviors is always a risky business (from a data standpoint) I believe it is nonetheless a potential source of new insight. One needs to take it with a grain of salt, but a large number of studies all coming to similar conclusions – as many of the evo psych and bio studies have – is potentially quite significant, in my view.

      4. Asking people what they would do is obviously is not the same as observing what they actually do. Since direct observation of female brain activity around sex is difficult to come by, I believe it is useful to gauge attitudes among women. If a woman feels repelled or attracted by a story in a study, and responds accordingly, I don’t see any reason why we would assume that in real life she would do the opposite. Studies are now nearly all conducted anonymously online, so embarrassment with an interviewer is unlikely to be an issue. Similarly, women experience little if any shaming for the sexual choices, so don’t have the same incentive to fudge the truth as they did a couple of generations ago. There is still some, but it is greatly diluted.

  • Herb

    @Passer_by

    I think the male who ranks around 750 out of 1,000 would be substantially more physically attracted to the female of the same rank than she would be to him.

    Well, if we have faith in OKCupid that’s because she knows even 750 of 1000 is below average. You don’t get to average with men until 801.

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier
    “Anecdotally, I have some problems with this post. It reads to me like one of those things we all wish were true, because it would make the world a better place, but it does not comport with observable reality as I have lived and seen it.”

    Yes, and I think it’s for the reasons I stated above regarding the method of having women read about hypothetical men and then answer a questionnaire about them.

  • Alias

    VD
    “there is absolutely no way he can have an IQ over 128 due to his performance on the PSAT and SAT. The irony is that he’s not even as intelligent as the much-mocked George Bush, whose IQ is 126 based on his pre-1974 SAT score of 1206.”
    ———
    VD,
    Not that I place such high value on IQ “scores”, nor on politicians …

    My question though is:
    Does socioeconomic privilege get factored in when only using PSAT/SATs scores as a measure of IQ?

  • PeppermintPanda

    “Again, check your david buss; down through human evolutionary history, there have been twice as many bachelors as spinsters. This reflects the truth of both sexual psychologies of male and female as per my comments above.”

    The data doesn’t show that though …

    The data demonstrates that there were twice as many women who had children as men, but this doesn’t mean that many male humans who lived a long adult life didn’t have children.

    In a hunter-gatherer society men would take the bulk of the risks and die a disporportionate percentage of the time. It is not that unreasonable to expect that the young, smaller, and less experienced males died far more often than their older, larger and more experienced counterparts; or that women prefered the older, larger and more experience men. It is quite possible that 50% of men died before they were 18 or 21, while the vast majority of children were fathered by men over the age of 18 or 21. In ways you could argue that the fact that a man could survive to maturity demonstrated his value as a potential sexual partner.

  • Alias

    # 242 Duh, to myself.

    VD,
    Of course, if *only* PSAT/SAT are used, socioeconomic status isn’t factored in. My question was do you actually think it’s accurate to only consider those scores.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hymowizt also argues girls become women by bleeding. If that’s all it takes to be a “woman” is it any surprise most women make bad choices.

    Take in account that becoming a mother in the recent past was a sign of full womanhood (I think it was till the woman breastfeeding her first baby) and since for being a mother you need to pick a father the preparation for womanhood included mate selection and other useful skills that although aiming at childbearing also helped in other aspects of her life. Now that you only need to bleed the only preparation necesary is to learn how to use a tampon, not a lot of though on that.

    My knowledge of this issue is admittedly based on reading alone, but a common theme in literature is that light skin, e.g. “high yellow” was a mark of status for either sex among blacks. (That term was still in use less than 100 years ago!)

    Look at the Egyptian statues the men are always darker than the women, you could say that they were reproducing real conditions since men worked under the sun a lot more than women, but then if you read greek and roman texts on beauty women have always being considered prettier the lighter their skin was. Even if Snow White had a lot more going on that just beauty the term was “fairest of them all” that is a key on preference, YMMV.

    Across ethnicities, the average man is half a head taller than the average woman, so “at least 3 inchs” sounds about right.

    We used to call it the “heels test” if can wear heels without you feeling selfconscious or the man giving you crap for it then he was probably tall enough.

    If we return to 20% of the men having all the children it will be ugly. This isn’t a few thousand men in Africa at the bottleneck of human evolution about 70,000 BC. It would be over 3 billion men without any investment in their future beyond their own fun.

    And imagine how much of our IQ we will lose with the high chances of incest. Total disaster. Had I mentioned my theory that the reason we have not contacted advanced civilizations from outer space is because they went through all this disaster and they devolved to a point they couldn’t developed technology to travel space beyond what we can see now? Some days I do feel this is the beginning of the end of my beautiful civilization…

    You’re shitting me! I would have thought his verbal IQ, if not his total IQ, was sky-high! He certainly has a very high EQ and is unflappable, and that is probably more important than anything in terms of succeeding in politics.

    He doesn’t have a high IQ but he has high charisma. That is enough for many people. Funny enough the man never impressed me. I don’t think ENFJ like each other much.

    For most guys, getting a steady gf won’t hurt his status at all as long as he doesn’t become whipped (but unfortunately a lot of guys are conditioned to do just that).

    For what is worth another thing I did when dating my husband was making sure his friends though I was cool and laid back when we had our cyberdates I always encourage him to go out with his friends instead if they felt like hanging out and reschedule, or to attend parties knowing that we wouldn’t be able to talk or chat that weekend or even on New Years Eve. I always though that gave me needed extra points to earn the ring.

    They never do.

    Oh boy so this. At this point I know more about his family endeavors than he does. “How do you know that?” he asks “err I ask?” oh well I’m okay with doing the PR in our family :D

  • Herb

    @Alias

    Herb:
    “we had lots of men over a 50,000 year span who had no children.”
    ———

    Yeah, that was my question, if it was specific to a time period.

    It’s more than one specific time period. I just gave the most extreme example. Except for the male line of Chromosomal Adam we can’t conclude anyone is a decendant of any man prior to him. We can affirmatively assert no man is decended from other men, although women might be.

    However, it’s a trend that continues since then for a variety of reasons, the biggest being survival rate. That’s why I suspect if we could map it current world wide levels probably stablized sometime between 1500 (last great migration wars) and 1800. The West probably moved even closer to even in ratios since 1800 or so (industrial revolution) with early 20th century blips (World Wars).

    I also don’t have figures for a specific ratio. I’m less interested in ratios than trends. My concern is sexual liberation means the ratios will diverge again as marriage dies and isn’t tightly bound to getting pregnant.

    What does worry me is unpartnered males. They create instability. I’m not sure they even need to become a majority. A lot can happen at the margins (look at how a marginal number of women hooking up above their SMP has broken the SMP). If we move from 1 in 20 males unpartnered to 1 in 5 that’s still only 20% but what changes in society if we 15% of men from invested to uninvested?

    Re: stepfathers
    from the report:
    “This is the first report issued by the Census Bureau focusing on the fertility patterns of American men.”
    “the only fertility question asked of men was about the number of children they had ever fathered.”

    Fair enough.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    About average looking, but short (5’6″). However, I have other friends who are the same (short, average looking) who do far better with women than he does. Personally, I think his confidence with women is shot. He barely even tries. Every new girl he meets he greets with “buddy” talk. Every new girl I meet that I’m attracted to I go straight into creating some sexual tension. I think he’s very afraid that it might become “awkward” or he’s afraid of rejection. Also very hard to talk to one of your best friends about that, b/c it’s some pretty scathing criticism if he hasn’t asked for help. As an example, a few weeks ago we got drinks with a group of girls. It was me, him, and 6 girls. As usual, most of the girls there were his friends, not mine. I thought two of them were cute, so I flirted. I obviously couldn’t get both of their numbers there, so I followed up with mutual friends a day later to get both of their numbers. Both were girls I’ve met before, but whom I see every 4-5 months or so and have never known well. My friend would never have done that for fear of not being able to hang out with them again if it didn’t go well. I honestly had trouble explaining to him that the only thing I was losing was seeing a couple girls who I barely knew from time to time, but I stood to gain a lot more (I ended up getting 1 date out of 2). I probably will see the girl who turned me down again, and it will be awkward, but that’s why I’m a grown-up, not a child, and can deal with it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Women can detect fear of rejection. If they’re already attracted to the guy, a little flutter in the voice or a trembling hand can be charming and increase affection. If not, it’s a dealbreaker. The only way a guy can stimulate attraction if it’s not there at first sight (or via preselection) is with confidence and (seeming) indifference to the outcome.

      I wish your buddy would broach the subject with you – it sounds like you’re in a position to give him some good advice. In any case, he’s not going to change the way his current crop of girl BFFs see him. But he could do better with new girls if he can build up his confidence. Maybe you need to supply the girls for a change :)

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    By the way, I really couldn’t stand frat guys when I was in college. I just never got what girls saw in them they were a bunch of obnoxious tools.

    Which brings me to: does anyone here remember a reality show on VH1 called the ‘Tool Academy’? The show was about women who were fed up with their asshole spouses. The premise of the show was to trick their unsuspecting a**hole behaving spouses in participating on the show in order to reform them. The women swore if the men did not change for the better the relationships would be over. At the end, the most reformed guy got cash and prizes or something. I loved this show. It is no longer on (I think or I just can’t find it) but it blows apart the whole “women love a**holes” meme. Maybe at first the behavior was appealing but after a while it appeared to have gotten old with the women they were involved with long-term or married to.

  • Passer_By

    @Liza
    “Which brings me to: does anyone here remember a reality show on VH1 called the ‘Tool Academy’? The show was about women who were fed up with their asshole spouses.”

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for the analogous show about reforming bitch wives.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, who IS your type?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda:
    Yes youre right-buss says the very same things youre saying above. Indeed, the key reason why men die at much larger numbers and earlier ages is because of risk taking in an effort to impress women enough to mate with them. So again, youre most definitely right.

    Glad to see that we agree. :)

    O.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for the analogous show about reforming bitch wives.
    —–
    It would be a great idea for a reality show. ‘Bitch Academy’.

  • Joe

    @Herb

    Afterwards she pursued me as much as I pursued her.

    I think the secret in part was we were doing something not involving mating where I was able to show off competence and confidence. That allowed us both to be open to attraction without concentrating on it.

    Right on the nose.

    @Obs. Really? The hottest girls are “at the bar, full stop”? That strikes me as a needless limiting of your choices, rather like the ladies limiting themselves to “taller” men. I’m certain you could afford that much more than I.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda:
    Let me also say that i agree with what you said wrt the pickup artists at the speed dating event; they didnt seem to do what grimble did in “the game” when he was on a dating show on tv-and won. Calibration, is always key. No two ways about it.

    That said, i do think the bar and niteclub scene gets way too much short shrift, and i think its because of good ole sour grapes-those who bemoan it the most tend to be those who cant hang in such an environment. Again i say: the hottest chicks around tend to be there. I have nothing against anyones personal preference but objectively speaking, most guys would agree: the clubs are where the hot babes be.

    It is, what it is.

    O.

  • Herb

    @Passer_By

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for the analogous show about reforming bitch wives.

    That’s because bitch wives don’t exist and if they do it’s the husband’s fault anyway.

    @Escoffier

    Liza, who IS your type?

    I have concluded Liza will settle for nothing short of the platonic ideal mix of Alpha and Beta. She’s our own personal Kate Bollick based on her statements.

    Sorry, Liza, but from what you’ve said that’s how I have to call it.

  • Alias

    Herb:
    “It’s more than one specific time period. ”
    —–

    Yes, i know you meant spanning throughout pre-modern history, sorry, I’m just rushing in and out of here so I’m not being clear. I did want to know if it pertained to modern history which you answered – it doesn’t.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Liza, who IS your type?

    Escoffier,

    The ideal guy for me (and most women) beta/alpha. More beta than alpha, of course. You know, a decent guy with good character who is confident and secure in himself. No tools. I am not saying that I was not attracted to a tool or two but they never went the distance with me–annoying and would grate on my nerves after a short while, really.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The ideal guy for me (and most women) beta/alpha. More beta than alpha, of course. You know, a decent guy with good character who is confident and secure in himself.

      Why is this too much for Liza (or any woman) to ask? At least this is in reach for a large number of guys.

  • In passing

    Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. I guess what I took away from some of the responses is that male appeal to women is more flexible than female appeal to men. For women, its majority looks. For men, its about being manly, confident, etc–all things you can change about yourselves and get a chance to demonstrate. Got it, it seems very unfair, but I guess it doesn’t make it any less true.

    @Passer_by
    Thanks for the warm welcome :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @joe:
    Yes youre right-what im saying wrt the clubscene is indeed limited-just like the ladies who prefer taller men and for whom this trait is a dealbreaker. But guess what-we ALL have dealbreakers and we all impose limits on what we will and will not find sexually acceptable as mates. Your own personal example notwithstanding, the majority of men dont find women notably older than themselves to be sexually attractive-even if she were smart, funny, had a great career/money etc. The age thing is a dealbreaker, and no matter of trying to shame guys otherwise is going to change that because its part of our evolutionary hardwiring to favor youth to age in a woman. It is what it is.

    The niteclubs tend to attract the more objectively beautiful women-must we actually have to debate what we all know to be true here? Really? Wouldnt it be better for us all to simply acknoweldge that and move on?

    O.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Herb,

    You got me pegged and I guess you do not think that guy exists. That guy use to exist in large numbers a long time ago. It is rather sad that he has gone almost extinct. Huh?

  • Herb

    @Liza

    You got me pegged and I guess you do not think that guy exists. That guy use to exist in large numbers a long time ago. It is rather sad that he has gone almost extinct. Huh?

    Okay, this is where we aren’t meeting.

    From what you’ve said you want is a guy who never existed. That’s why I said platonic ideal . No guy can 100% of the time be that perfect of a mix.

    The guy in the gym is going to condemn you for a long time. :)

    This is, sadly, very common. What makes it doubly sad is it helps itself becoming self-fulfilling. Because trying the mix gets you little (in no small part because those looking for it want perfection) while being an asshole gets you something it convinces men being an asshole is the better choice.

  • Sassy6519

    As far as the whole “skin color” discussion that was happening between Royale and Obsidian, I’ll toss in my two cents.

    I have never had a problem attracting black men, despite the fact that I’m darker skinned.

    Having said that, I’ve always preferred white men. It’s just what I’m attracted to the most.

    My nickname among my family is “white boy magnet”. The supposed ratio is that for every 1 black man that has ever shown interest in me, 10-20 white men have shown interest in me.

    As far as black women dating white men, I don’t see why that’s considered such a shame. If a black woman can snag a white guy, that’s great. In all honesty, white men probably have the highest SMV out of all men. If a black woman is able to date a white guy in lieu of a black guy, it’s possibly an upgrade.

    I don’t mean that to be derogatory at all, but that’s the conclusion I draw from comparing the relative SMVs amongst men of different races.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Again i say: the hottest chicks around tend to be there. I have nothing against anyones personal preference but objectively speaking, most guys would agree: the clubs are where the hot babes be.

    Maybe in NYC or LA… but not necessarily on a college campus.

    That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of hot girls at the clubs… but there are just as many at house parties, dive bars, football tailgates, block parties, etc. And honestly, those venues are probably more representative of campus social culture than nightclubs are.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    It has been my experience that a large portion of the 10s in a club are 6s on the street. Many of these “super hot” women in the club are dressing and grooming themselves in a way to maximize the attention they get, and when you take that away they are often not that attractive. The following link includes far more extreme transformations that you typically see, but it is an example of the kind of transformations that some bar-stars undergo:

    http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/chinese-girls-before-and-after-makeup.html

    The nice girl who is a solid 7/8 with light make-up while wearing jeans and a t-shirt is often far more attractive in real life to bar-star 10s

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Peppermint Panda

      Those before and after pics are crazy! I especially was struck by the first example. Wow!

      Here’s a spoof that is nonetheless right on:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZgyG-wvq2I

      A woman’s beauty can’t be truly judged until she is viewed with no makeup.

  • Richard Aubrey

    “”I think the secret in part was we were doing something not involving mating where I was able to show off competence and confidence. That allowed us both to be open to attraction without concentrating on it.””

    As I’ve mentioned before, I missed at least half a dozen–that I know of–IOI in college and all of them were from women with whom I was associated doing something other than the mating dance.

    Susan. As to men who “believe” that women frequently go for buttheads, we have the stereotypical behavior of the Nice Guy ™. Part of it includes endlessly listening to the woman’s complaints about how rotten her bf is. I suppose some of the NG believe the women. Now what? The murderers’ Pen Pal association isn’t necessarily the Big Deal with “believe” this stuff. Most guys can spot outliers and anomalies. But it does serve in the sense that, “if some even go that far, it shows how far the rest can go without going that far.” The farther out the outlier lies, the farther out the inliers can lie without being outliers.
    I have no stats on the subject, and the stats would be difficult, since some women don’t think a guy is a butthead when everybody else does, some won’t admit it, some define butthead as not providing sufficient bling….
    I think it’s been shown here and elsewhere that what “studies” show women want–when women are asked what they want–serve as a cross between an anchor and a way to look absolutely stupid when a guy takes it seriously and tries to attract women that way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard Aubrey

      I think it’s been shown here and elsewhere that what “studies” show women want–when women are asked what they want–serve as a cross between an anchor and a way to look absolutely stupid when a guy takes it seriously and tries to attract women that way.

      For the record, I don’t think anyone should use a study to craft a mating strategy.

      I do think that Game was codified a long time ago, and much has been learned about female sexuality since then. It seems insane to keep Game static. You may question a study, but in fact, the research is all pointing in the same direction. Why put one’s head in the sand? Game principles are valid, but for example, this set of studies calls into question the efficacy of Dark, or Asshole Game.

  • Herb

    @

    The niteclubs tend to attract the more objectively beautiful women-must we actually have to debate what we all know to be true here? Really? Wouldnt it be better for us all to simply acknoweldge that and move on?

    Unless you want to condition it to “black women” where I can’t really speak, I don’t know it to be true.

    Nightclubs get poorly dressed women, entitled women, “hot” women, and a variety of other categories but the most objectively beautiful women as a relatively constant function?

    No, I don’t buy that at all. In fact, my general nightclub experience (subculture specific draw a wider pool because they’ll draw the entire subculture from hot to ugly to just want to dance) the women are 5-8 range and those who are above that are hot more than other kinds of beautiful.

    Hot fades and usually includes a side of bitchy as often as not. Other kinds of beautiful are much more common elsewhere. I’m big on handsome women and striking women for the most part although the current gf does sweet and innocent pretty well (which is a danger sign in the S&M community – straight female dominants get much rougher the more harmless they look…5’6″ sweet and innocent usually plays much harder than 6’1″ ice queens). Early twenties I adore baby dykes. I love that stage where women are experimenting with butch and while they have all the parts they haven’t blended them and lots of feminine leaks through (I remember one about 21 with short hair but still using a couple of barretts for example). They are just so cute at that stage.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @sassy:
    No, what you say about white male smv relative to black male smv is something i would agree with, and partly explains why those sistas who go that route do what they do. I know its not cricket in our time to say so but lets face it-who we spend our time with does indeed make a statement about who and what we are-and part of the reason why we choose who we choose has at least in part to do with how such an alliance will aid us in terms of our social standing. For some sistas-especially many who are darker than many brothas would prefer-their hypergamous needs are constantly thwarted. Being with a white male at the very least helps offset that.

    The question on the other side though, is whether a white guy being with such a woman helps or hurts his social status. Again to mention banks’ book, the early returns as we have it are not very encouraging. Please note that a black man having a white woman without a doubt increases his status.

    Let me also say that when white men do get with sistas they tend to be darker skinned and, to sport more au natural hairstyles. I say more power to em.

    O.

  • Rum

    I do not get why we are told regularly that women with lots of options really do want to fuck Nice Guys more than any other kind of man. I mean, if this is so true, why even bother with HUS, or the blogs teaching the arts of Pick Up? Why not just tell young women to follow their hearts and young men to just be nice and show it?
    There might be a planet somewhere where this describes reality, just not the one we live on.
    1. In the past, probably with moving north, females may have simply lost the option of going without a committed male supporter even if he was beta-ish.
    2. Who is to say it was “faithful” females who looked for faithful men? This is wild speculation. There was no easy DNA paternity testing back then. Just because you have to settle for a non elite man does not necessarily change the hind brain it merely requires that it be kept hidden.
    3. These discussions tend to go in circles because PC demands that females must always come out on top of the moral hierarchy..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      I do not get why we are told regularly that women with lots of options really do want to fuck Nice Guys more than any other kind of man. I mean, if this is so true, why even bother with HUS, or the blogs teaching the arts of Pick Up? Why not just tell young women to follow their hearts and young men to just be nice and show it?

      There is a whole lot of daylight between the high prestige male and the Nice Guy TM. And what separates them is supplication, pedestalization, low self-confidence and fear. There is a tendency among men in the ‘sphere to think in very binary terms. Alpha vs. beta. The reality is a spectrum, with infinite variations.

      In sharing information about female sexuality, I hope that women who feel repulsed by assholes derive support. They also learn that women who do, in fact, go for assholes have certain characteristics that set them apart. I cannot tell you how many women have stated, “I don’t like jerks, I really don’t! I’ve never been with one, never dated one, never crushed on one.” The typical manosphere reader says, “Oh yes you do. You just don’t understand your own attraction triggers. Women like assholes, Game proves it, and your hamster is running at lightspeed.”

      I am not an unusual woman. I would describe myself as having a high sex drive (sorry for the TMI). I can tell you that never once in my life have I felt the slightest tingle for dominant, callous, insensitive, asshole, cocky behavior. Not. One. Time. I know many other women like me. Please don’t tell me what I like, or that I don’t know what I like.

      These discussions tend to go in circles because PC demands that females must always come out on top of the moral hierarchy..

      How so? Because they presumably rejected bad men? Why can’t the good men come out on top? Females choose, as ever. If they want their children to grow up, it makes sense they would choose a mate who would stick around.

      Pair bonding did evolve. We are descended mostly from men who stuck around. To me, these studies are one big DUH. As a woman, it’s all patently obvious.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermintpanda, @herb, @jimmy hendricks:
    Listen, i know the internet generally, & this forum in particular, has a tendency to “niche” itself-and as ive said before, i dont have a problem with any of that. Whatever floats your boats, guys.

    But me? I like dealing on the groung with the majority of the people, the majority of the time. Simply put, what i said is true. There is just no getting around that. The hotter gals tend to be in these venues, and in larger numbers/concentrations too. Guys like mystery and style arent making this stuff up. It is what it is.

    Again: im not hating on what any of you like-do you by all means. But cmon fellas-please dont try to blow smoke up my behind because i know better.

    Only by staring the truth dead in the eye can we at least understand why things are the way they are.

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    The question on the other side though, is whether a white guy being with such a woman helps or hurts his social status. Again to mention banks’ book, the early returns as we have it are not very encouraging. Please note that a black man having a white woman without a doubt increases his status.

    There’s no question that dating a black woman hurts a white man’s social status, in some eyes. It’s also true that black men get a bump in status for dating white women. There are some things to take into account though.

    1. White women who date black men are very stigmatized in our society, even more so than white men who date black or ethnic women. One thing that non-white women have going for them is the idea that minority women are exotic, physically and sexually. Throw in the well documented concept of men valuing sexual variety, and any loss of status by dating a minority woman is pretty much nullified. Men are encouraged to “sample flavors of the rainbow”, if you will.

    2. White women who date black men are practically forever tainted in the eyes of some people. White women, despite how PC our society attempts to be, don’t have the luxury of sexual variety without castigation. A white man can get away with diddling whoever he wants, regardless of their race, but a white woman is held to a different standard. I think this stems from the overall idea of purity that is associated with Caucasian women. Interracial dating was forbidden for a long time primarily to dissuade white women mating with black men more than anything else, since we know that white men and black women interacted and reproduced with each other quite frequently in the past.

    So overall, I think the white male/black female couple has a better chance of weathering the storm of scrutiny than a white female/black male couple. The scrutiny of a white male dating a black female is fairly nullified due to the fact that sexual variety is championed among men. White women, who are idealized to be pure and untainted, can’t escape the scrutiny attached to dating a black man.

    It explains why I’ve heard some white men, I don’t remember from where, who claim that a white woman completely disqualifies herself amongst some white men if she has ever dated/slept with a black man.

    I don’t agree with that sentiment though. I think people should love and date whoever they want.

  • Herb

    @O

    Again: im not hating on what any of you like-do you by all means. But cmon fellas-please dont try to blow smoke up my behind because i know better.

    Only by staring the truth dead in the eye can we at least understand why things are the way they are.

    And I’m calling bullshit.

    For nightclubs to have a monopoly on attractive women you have to conclude:
    1. Attractive women don’t exist outside of major metropolitan areas. You die on that one alone.
    2. Attractive women choose to spend most of the their spare time in high cost, high time venues.
    3. You have to explain why clubs have to have ladies nights to attract women if they are all flocking to the clubs.
    4. You need to account for why attractive women choose night clubs over all other activities in mass.
    5. You need to account for why unattractive women choose night clubs at much lower rates because if the clubs monopolize attractive women almost no unattractive women can be going at the current levels of club attendance.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Listen, i know the internet generally, & this forum in particular, has a tendency to “niche” itself-and as ive said before, i dont have a problem with any of that. Whatever floats your boats, guys.

    You’re failing to realize that the urban club scene is extremely niche as well.

    Guys like mystery and style arent making this stuff up. It is what it is.

    Guys like Mystery and Style’s PUA type game would get laughed out of a house party with a bunch of 18-22 year olds (you know, the age when girls are at their hottest).

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    I think you’re missing or ignoring my point …

    Women communicate far more with their clothing and grooming than the typical man does, and women who are looking to get laid tonight dress and groom themselves much differently than women who are looking for relationships. Women who are looking to get laid spend their evenings in different venues than women who are looking for a relationship, and they both value different traits in men.

    One of the most attractive women I have ever met was a former gymnast, ballroom dancer who worked as a fitness model who rarely went to clubs, dressed rather conservatively, used make-up sparingly, and always had her hair in a ponytail. The reason for this was she already got too much attention from the wrong kind of guys, and not enough attention from the right guys. In hindsight I recognize that she probably wanted me to make a move, but at that point in my life (being 20 and having just lost 100 pounds) I didn’t have the confidence to handle a woman who was a 10 without makeup.

    Maybe my experiences can not be generalized, but I have tended to find that most of the hotest women were holding out for more than a 1 night stand in a bar; and most of the “10s” in bars were women with caked on makeup and skimpy clothes trying to get attention to make up for the holes in their souls.

    The fact that many of the PUA gurus fixate on strippers, who are some of the most toxic women in reality, speaks volumes in itself …

  • Sassy6519

    @ PeppermintPanda

    Maybe my experiences can not be generalized, but I have tended to find that most of the hotest women were holding out for more than a 1 night stand in a bar; and most of the “10s” in bars were women with caked on makeup and skimpy clothes trying to get attention to make up for the holes in their souls.

    The fact that many of the PUA gurus fixate on strippers, who are some of the most toxic women in reality, speaks volumes in itself …

    Bingo.

    Women who are natural beauties can attract men wearing burlap sacks practically. Makeup isn’t required for their radiance to shine through.

    Whenever I do venture out to a bar/club, which is rare nowadays, the “hottest” women have butter-faces when you get up close to them. Take away their pushup bras, hair extensions, and pounds of makeup, and you’re left with a 5-6 at best most of the times.

    Hence why beer goggles are so vital in those environments.

    I’m not saying that truly attractive women don’t go to such places, but there is a big discrepancy between being hot in nightlife situations and hot in broad daylight.

    With that, I’m off to theatre rehearsal.

  • VD

    Of course, if *only* PSAT/SAT are used, socioeconomic status isn’t factored in. My question was do you actually think it’s accurate to only consider those scores.

    Yes, for PSAT/SAT prior to 1986, because the tests were straightforward IQ tests. Since they’re now achievement tests, they are worthless for IQ purposes post-1986. As for socioeconomic status, Obama was at Punahou. It’s an elite school. After a bit more thought, I realized it can be confirmed that Obama’s IQ must be sub-118, not merely sub-129, because he is half-black and therefore qualified for National Achievement recognition, which he also does not appear to have received.

    Guys like Mystery and Style’s PUA type game would get laughed out of a house party with a bunch of 18-22 year olds (you know, the age when girls are at their hottest).

    House parties? Please. Almost all the most beautiful girls are in the clubs. Why? Simple. That’s where all the models are. You know, the ones who are paid very well on the basis of their looks alone. And they’re usually 16-20 because they don’t get carded. It’s amazing what you’ll see at the Milano airport sometimes, with all the international models flying in and out of Malpensa.

  • Herb

    Why nightclubs cannot monopolize attractive women, a back of the envelope calculation.

    Baseline facts:
    1. Atlanta metro area has 5.3 million.
    2. Median US age is 43.

    Assumptions (remember, back of the envelope here):
    1. Atlanta’s population breakdown is national average
    2. Distribution of people by age is linear below 43.
    3. People club mostly from 21 to 30
    4. Distribution of attractiveness is a triangle with the same numbers of 5s and 6s and the number halving each step away from the center. This means for every 8 6 there is one 1 10. Note, I’m assuming this among 21-30 year old where women peak and thus probably underestimating.
    7. Women are 50% of the population.

    People of clubbing age = (Population under/2/43) * (30-20) = 616,000
    People of clubbing age who are 10s = 616,000/62 = 9935
    Women who are 10s and of clubbing age = 4968

    Altanta’s largest night club is Wild Bill’s. From their website:

    Wild Bill’s Atlanta, home of the famous Wild Bill’s Wild Girl’s, is located in Duluth near Gwinnett Place Mall off of I-85. Come party with 5000 of your friends at the best night club and bar in metro Atlanta. Featuring different bands and artist every weekend offering a wide variety of night life.

    First, it’s not the urban nightclub scene, it’s CW. Second, it’s capacity is 5000. We know at most it can hold all the hot women in Atlanta and 33 guys.

    Not working. Night clubs are almost always more men than women (hence “Ladies’ Night”).

    So, we’ll assume only half of that 5000 is women. Even if we assume that only women 8 or above go to nightclubs but in the nightclub they are distributed as in the general population it would take nine clubs the size of Wild Bill’s to attract all the 10s of clubbing age under my assumptions.

    There are not 10 clubs that size and of the few that are most are not urban night clubs in the PUA sense but, like Wild Bill’s, concert venues. Each is specialized and thus draws a narrow section of the population. Masquerade probably has zero overlap in customer base with Wild Bill’s.

    Dance oriented, urban night clubs hit about 1/10 of that capacity but now we need 100 general purpose ones and that’s assuming no women under 8 every enter them.

    Sure you can futz around with assumptions but basic back of the envelope math tells you there isn’t enough room for one PUA and all the rest 10s in all the night clubs in Atlanta.

  • J

    @pennies

    Further upthread, I pointed out that one of the happiest marriages I know of is between two 3s. Lots of mutual gratitude in that marriage.

  • J

    @Herb

    Genetic diversity is higher in mitochondria than Y chromosomes and runs back further. The only way for that to happen is for more women to have decendants than men.

    Polymath actually did a very cogent job of breaking down numbers to explain that. He did agree that more women than men had reproduced, but nowhere near twice as many. I attempted a google search in Polymath’s math and can no longer find it–which is interesting.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    VD hits the nail on the head wrt my points about why niteclubs etc are still useful in terms of overall female beauty assessment. So nuff said there.

    @sassy:
    The problem with everything youre saying is that it doesnt even comport with what banks, who is supportive of sistas like you, has had to say; the marital numbers dont bear you out. “Sampling” is on thing-putting a ring on it is sometjhing else. And per banks’ book you best believe that white guys who marry black women are facing a fate not unlike their white sisters-by their family, friends, you name it. In fact-and buss talks about this-men are judged far and away more harshly for the kind of company he keeps than are women. This is why again, relatively few bw/wm marriages exist-because the hit such a man takes to his social standing and status is too high in most cases. Banks discusses all this in his book.

    And yes i know about the early evidence that suggests more stable marriages that do take place btw bw/wm-but of course at least part of this can be explained by the fact that, as you point out, sistas like yourself will see any tradeoffs being w/such a man as necessary; after all, white men still command the highest smv of all men in america. As buss points out in his books, women can and will put up with quite a bit in their men if said men bring enough status to make the trifles worthwhile.

    Lastly youre correct to note that black women and white men have long had “interaction” in this country; what you failed to mention was the fact that most of that interaction didnt include any kind of longterm commitment that any women would choose in our time today. To be sure, white men will definitely sex up a black woman; whether there are enough of them to wife the sistas up, is a question that still is very much up for debate…

    O.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Why is this too much for Liza (or any woman) to ask? At least this is in reach for a large number of guys.

    Two reasons in the specific case of Liza:

    1. She’s waited until over 30 when most men who easily do it are off the market and the remaining market is encouraging men to go asshole (by intent or accident is irrelevant).

    2. She’s demonstrated that the above requirement is necessary but not sufficient. This is problematic at 25 but by 30 is going to make things even worse.

    As for the general case, it isn’t but expecting that and everything else women today want is a big order. Might as well hold out for the pony as well.

    To get top results in one life category you have to prioritize it. It you want the best mates you better get to the party early. In fact, being willing to mate in your mid-20s is probably more important than most other factors. It’s an early bird gets the worm issue.

    Also, not only does the best product go off the shelf early the product degrades over time. A big source of the degredation of the product is something you don’t see in cars, say. It’s the fact that men have feelings (I know, I know, but trust me we do and they matter to us even if not to women on the whole) and those good ones left on the shelf (ie: not a priority) until 30 won’t be as open to their age peers as the ones picked early.

    So, it’s not unreasonable but it’s unreasonable to expect that plus a high power career plus fun in your 20s plus he knows what an Eames chair is plus talk dark and handsome plus rich and on and on and on.

    I remember people dumping on Adam for choosing Hannah. I choose my current gf. You all heard me work through one hard thing and there are other women who are tempting for other reasons but you know what. I’ve found someone with whom I enjoy waking up, having dinner, watching TV, and having sex. We don’t annoy each other and bring out the best in each other. If I take off the goggles she’s a 5-6 probably.

    So what, she’s a good match and I love her.

    For so many women that can’t be enough. For most men, it’s plenty.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    The reason why so many guys are upset at what liza finds most desirable, is easy: because by definition what she wants requires LOTS of work, and LOTS of multitasking, constantly making subtle adjustments and going back and forth between “soft” and “hard” if you will. Simply put, most men cant pull that off-not for long periods of time anyway.

    Go back to the 50 shades discussion-every romance/erotica book is about that-a hard guy who has a soft center that i accessible only to that special lady. Hes vulnerable but not too much, and knows when to “go hard” at just the right times. Im sorry ms walsh, but most men just arent that socially adroit.

    Hence the averse reaction on the part of the fellas to what ms liza says she most wants in a man…

    O.

  • Emanon

    Your article about dominance has me thinking. I have long noticed the difference between prestige and “domineering”. But there is another facet to this, at least for a part of the populace.

    How much do you know about D/s and BDSM? There are a surprising amount of women who identify themselves as submissives. They actively seek dominant men. This doesn’t men the type of man who is abusive or disrespectful. Sure, there are a lot of self-claimed “Doms” who are those things, but most submissives in D/s aren’t looking for that. They seek a man who is strong, a “take charge” man, a man who can guide and protect and nurture and cherish her, yet who also can provide the discipline they need and actively seek.

    Such dominance isn’t something conferred like prestige, and it is far from the caddish domineering which submissives abhor and reject. The woman who penned the dreadful “Shades of Grey” series obviously doesn’t know what it is, despite the popularity of her books. What a load of claptrap….

    The D/s world encompasses a spectrum of beliefs and needs and kinks, of course. But most submissives avoid the cads and wackos. Most submissives want a real relationship, and they want that relationship to be with a dominant man. And that dominant man doesn’t fit either of the types discussed in your post.

    I enjoy your articles. They always make me think.

    All the best….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emanon

      Most submissives want a real relationship, and they want that relationship to be with a dominant man. And that dominant man doesn’t fit either of the types discussed in your post.

      That doesn’t surprise me. The researchers didn’t intend for this to be the last word on attraction and dominance. In fact, it’s more like a baby step. Recognizing the lack of consensus around the concept, they sought to split it into two distinct concepts in hopes of understanding specifically what women like. They were right to say that until now, both kinds of dominance were lumped together. The dominance of thugs, and the dominance of a humble, gifted leader. Surely we benefit from distinguishing between them.

      In any case, I think there is probably a lot to be learned from the BDSM community, as communication is a cornerstone and people can (must!) openly say what they want and desire. Perhaps we will see some research in that area – I’ll keep my eyes open. What you seem to be describing is also true of the Taken in Hand folks, I would think. It’s clear that many women do indeed like to submit in that way. Also, there’s the Athol Kay style of Captain and First Officer in marriage – I think many women like that. I suspect that the number of successful marriages where the woman dominates the man (not just sexually) is rather small.

  • pennies for sale

    So what, she’s a good match and I love her.

    For so many women that can’t be enough. For most men, it’s plenty.

    Yep.

    And that’s why I read this blog and the comments. Whatever women want from men and feel for men when a guy meets the endless requirements of her checklist is not “love” in any sense of the word as I understand it and 90 percent of the content here just serves to remind me of why MGTOW is the only sane option when my hormones are trying to convince me otherwise.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms j:
    Assuming what you say to be true, can you understand why at least some 3 guys find getting with the female equivalent detestable? Or is that beyond your comprehension?

    Im not trying to be snide or smart here just very curious as to the point youre attempting to make with your one personal anecdote. Youve had at least six guys all openly disagreeing with you in this forum. Please explain what gives?

    O.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I went to a nightclub the first time this past weekend. Met quite a few girls. A couple wallflowers and the less attractive sent some IOIs, probably because I was the ONLY Beta-looking guy in the entire place and just having a good time listening to the music.

    Fuck that shit, though. Way too expensive and way too long a line. Once I have a girlfriend, seems like a nice place to get a little sexual and dance hardcore, but LOOKING for a girl there? NOOOOO!

    @ Susan
    “Why is this too much for Liza (or any woman) to ask? At least this is in reach for a large number of guys.”
    It is extremely difficult for men to reach any level of confidence with women. Keep in mind that the reach of the red-pill is very, very small. We will reach, at most, a few thousand men. Utterly trivial. The rest are awash in a culture that hates men being masculine and get very bad advice.

    And then it’s crazy hard to do this stuff by yourself. Everyone is rooting for you to fail. Your Dad, your Mom, your Boss, your Friends, everyone. With that pressure on you, in addition to the normal pressure of near-constant rejection from women that’s absolutely necessary in the opening stages, in addition to the pain from swallowing the redpill in the first place….

    Yes. You are asking for a LOT from men. That’s why so few men do it.

  • Herb

    @Emanon

    most submissives in D/s aren’t looking for that. They seek a man who is strong, a “take charge” man, a man who can guide and protect and nurture and cherish her, yet who also can provide the discipline they need and actively seek.

    While very true in my experience, this:

    The D/s world encompasses a spectrum of beliefs and needs and kinks, of course. But most submissives avoid the cads and wackos. Most submissives want a real relationship, and they want that relationship to be with a dominant man. And that dominant man doesn’t fit either of the types discussed in your post.

    is mixed. I mean, the 30+ newbie femsub who gets chewed up by an abuser is a stereotype for a reason. Also, depending on the particular city and subset prestige is important. In the leather world it’s paramount although problematic in some ways.

    Also, the rules of engagement and what constitutes date versus a relationship are very different from the vanilla world. Also, those seriously into D/s tend to be in supportive social circles (sometimes I’m still amazed at just how much kinky people dominate my social life even though it’s mostly non-kinky).

    Finally, I have suggested to one poster who seems to be looking for exactly that kind of dominance that she go to a much and even put out my email for her to respond. I didn’t get an email so I’m not sure suggesting that avenue is going to help much.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Pair bonding did evolve. We are descended mostly from men who stuck around. To me, these studies are one big DUH. As a woman, it’s all patently obvious.

    Tell that to feminists and the broader culture. Do you honestly see us providing that view to the majority of the population through the various institutions that transmist cultural knowledge?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Tell that to feminists and the broader culture. Do you honestly see us providing that view to the majority of the population through the various institutions that transmist cultural knowledge?

      Yes, those pesky feminists certainly get in the way, don’t they? I don’t think we’ll get through to the majority, but I think the message is reaching a minority, and I think that minority can become sizeable. Based on the general curiosity among people I meet, I would say that people understand there’s something seriously wrong in the SMP, they have no idea what to do about it (for their children) and they want a solution. There’s a receptive audience, if I can reach it.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    W/all due respect you have not responded to the points made by rum, and which i think goes right to the heart of the discussion-as ive been saying for a good long minute now, there isnt much in the way of realworld evidence that supports your position; meanwhile there is evidence that supports the a**hole game position. Mind you now, i dont support it personally; but i pride myself on dealing w/the world as it is not as i want it to be. And the truth of the matter is, that the a**holes of the world tend to get more action than the “light” counterparts. Thats just the plain truth of it.

    Im not justifying it but in the end guys are going to do what works. The a**hole gamers may not get much ltr mileage out of their game but they are getting laid-thats more than what the good guys can say. And like rum said, there simply isnt much in the way of hard evidence that nicer guys are in sexual demand by the ladies. There. Just. Isnt.

    Finally, what you said earlier about some beta guys being attracted to the hot chicks is 100% true-and is something that requires more examination. Its one thing to go for ladies that might be interested in you; its something else to be attracted to them. We often conflate the two when nothing can be further from the truth. Sexual attraction just doesnt work that way.

    Its time we stopped denying this truth.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      there isnt much in the way of realworld evidence that supports your position; meanwhile there is evidence that supports the a**hole game position.

      What is it?

      Also, I have no advice for men who want casual sex. Perhaps that’s most men, IDK. In any case, it is *never* in a woman’s best interest to go with such a man, unless she is also a promiscuous sort. As you may know, I contend that there’s 20% of the population that is promiscuous, both male and female. It may even be less.

      Women seeking a LTR have zero incentive to go with an Asshole. So it really depends on which women you’re talking about. The women Mystery wrote about? His ideal bisexual stripper who’s into threesomes? In that 20%. That’s not my audience.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “Women can detect fear of rejection. If they’re already attracted to the guy, a little flutter in the voice or a trembling hand can be charming and increase affection. If not, it’s a dealbreaker. The only way a guy can stimulate attraction if it’s not there at first sight (or via preselection) is with confidence and (seeming) indifference to the outcome.”

    This is true, even in marriage. A half-hearted, afraid of the outcome flirt or move on the wife is an instant turnoff from my experience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rone

      This is true, even in marriage. A half-hearted, afraid of the outcome flirt or move on the wife is an instant turnoff from my experience.

      Absolutely. A hopeful, tentative move as bedtime approaches is such a turnoff! Much better to go for it with a declaration (either spoken or acted out) that you intend to have sex *now.*

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    I think you will like “is marriage for white people?” by ralph richard banks. What he says in the book directly speaks to this discussion. He talks about how so poorly matched many of the black women he writes about in the book were to their boyfriends or hubbies who were black, but then got better matched with their white boyfriends/hubbies. What he leaves out is the fact that these women have done the very thing many men in the manosphere talk about-get with the callous alpha, got burned, and now settled in with the beta-only the beta is white. Other than that, its the same. Old. Song.

    Its a heck of a read. Check it out!

    O.

  • sweetsue

    Prestige is derived by dominance in action. Actions speak louder than words and also speak to a persons character and reflect what is in a persons heart and mind. A man who has acquired genuine prestige – respect of his peers and friends has done so – with intelligence, by acting with integrity and skill i.e. being his best self. The person with prestige may not be the most attractive physically or on the flashy aspects. They have achieved a level of excellence, superior ability i.e. dominance in what they do and in life; while exhibiting strength of character, will and determination.

    This kind of dominance is attractive because is bespeaks intelligence, confidence, competence, strength of character, integrity, endurance for the long haul and strength of will/discipline. That inspires a sense of confidence in women – they know he is capable and willing to handle his business and strong enough to protect and provide for her and generate a feeling of safety. As a feminine woman I want a man who is trustworthy, intelligent (book smart and life smart) and has prestige as noted above- actions vs words and strong enough to not always agree with me even as we mutually respect and celebrate each other and our differences.

    @O – Raphael Saadiq – gotta love the music – great choice

    @Susan great post sorry to late to the party been a busy few days.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan,
    “I do think that Game was codified a long time ago, and much has been learned about female sexuality since then. It seems insane to keep Game static. You may question a study, but in fact, the research is all pointing in the same direction. Why put one’s head in the sand? Game principles are valid, but for example, this set of studies calls into question the efficacy of Dark, or Asshole Game.”

    Susan. AFAIK, Game was not assembled by reading a bunch of studies asking women what women want.
    Some years ago, for various reasons including getting it right when trying to write some fiction, I started looking at relationship sites, including the PUA folks.
    Game appears to be a combination of assumptions about evpsych–which, as I have said, is, with exobiology a field of scientific study with no actual facts–and the experience claimed by the practitioners. In addition, on some of the threads, and elsewhere, you’ll find guys saying they went butthead on purpose, possibly out of desperation, and things improved markedly, even though they’re uncomfortable with it.
    Big pharma didn’t discover the red pill by running focus groups among college girls, or any other group.
    Over and over and over, surveys show women say they want beta behaviors. Once in a while, drilling down, the respondents want somebody “exciting”, or “edgy”, which doesn’t mean dominant or prestigious. In fact, their definitions are all over the place. A stubble will do it for some women, a Harley for others, skydiving for yet others, all having to do with the guy’s dealing with the world, not with her.
    You think Doqsquat came to his epiphany by reading surveys?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard Aubrey

      AFAIK, Game was not assembled by reading a bunch of studies asking women what women want.

      IIRC, Mystery did exactly that, plus observed behavior in nightclubs. I think he may have actually done this for six years or so before he wrote it all down. He began by posting in forums, including his observations. Ultimately he wrote the Mystery Method. He didn’t invent Game, he just acted as the social scientist who broke it down into specific behaviors. But I think it’s fair to say that his understanding of “what women want” was informed largely by evo psych literature – which is studies.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan. You got me. Got me good. We know that the “studies” we’ve been talking about is surveys of what women claim they want. Now we find that amateur anthropologists’ assumptions are “studies”. There are other subjects people study. Therefore I’m wrong.
    Evpsych is not studies. It’s assumptions. Nobody has ever laid eyes on a Cro Magnon, not to mention our hominid ancestors further back. Nobody has factored in female infanticide when trying to figure how mate/selection went. Chimps do it one way, gorillas another, and gibbons mate monogamously for life. Which means…?
    But, to be clear, I’m talking about, have clearly been talking about, surveys of what women claim they want.
    Which, if guys follow them, makes the guys losers.

  • Rum

    Susan
    I truly believe that Mr. HUS is one lucky dude. I also suspect that he was always more alpha than todays spectrum.
    There is no doubt that at some point in the past, lots of shorter, less perfect guys started getting lucky and that this gave homo sapiens a rocket-fuelled leg up in the evolutionary race. But to claim that must have represented an actual change in womens gina-tingle receptors does not follow logically. It could have been forced by changes in the environment. Expressing full out hypergamy might have become to risky. Indeed, many have said that the SMP seen today is precisely what it is because it has become safe to express natural levels of hypergamy. For the first time in a long time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Indeed, many have said that the SMP seen today is precisely what it is because it has become safe to express natural levels of hypergamy. For the first time in a long time.

      Agreed. There is the cultural aspect, which is powerful. Female sexuality is quite malleable. Unleash it, and hypergamy will prevail. I want to be clear on something – I am in no way suggesting that women are virtuous, certainly not of stronger moral fiber than men are. We are all animals designed to mate. Reproducing machines. Even our emotions have evolved to that end. We are seeing plenty of women who have gotten sidetracked from that priority (whether they choose to have children or not) and find themselves alone as they reach mid-life. They will not reproduce. In that sense, they are irrelevant. A woman may, through her own choices, fail to fulfill her biological imperative.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “Absolutely. A hopeful, tentative move as bedtime approaches is such a turnoff! Much better to go for it with a declaration (either spoken or acted out) that you intend to have sex *now.*”

    One of my favorite comics had a radio show where he touched on this. They were in the act and he told her to do something–she complied. When it was over she had this pensive expression, so he asked what was on her mind. She was thinking about how easily he got her to do it.

    Basically the way she explained it as that the way he said it, he didn’t leave her any other option to do otherwise. Not in a “rapey” way, but just speaking on it with confidence as if it’s a given.

  • Alias

    “Of course, if *only* PSAT/SAT are used, socioeconomic status isn’t factored in. My question was do you actually think it’s accurate to only consider those scores.”
    ———
    VD:
    “Yes, for PSAT/SAT prior to 1986, because the tests were straightforward IQ tests.”

    “As for socioeconomic status, Obama was at Punahou. It’s an elite school.”
    ————

    I’m aware that Mensa accepts these scores in place of IQ tests.
    So you’re saying that BO and GBjr. were of the same SES? Really? It doesn’t strike me that way, but I don’t know enough about this to go there, so I’ll leave it at that.
    Thanks for responding.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Indeed, many have said that the SMP seen today is precisely what it is because it has become safe to express natural levels of hypergamy. For the first time in a long time.

    I often contested this. This SMP is not natural, women were not given the pill and said “Do what you please” they were told “Have sex like a man, that empowers you, and you deserve everything, and if a man judge you he is a jerk and all men are rapists anyway you don’t need them for more than fun…” So yeah I wish we could have a control group of women that free of the consequences of sex and without any social conditioning could choose to use it. I get the feeling that things would be less chaotic if only feminism wouldn’t had poisoned the word “man”, YMMV.

  • Alias

    FWIW, just offhand, I know 5 women who disqualified guys based on their height (< 5'10ish). The tallest of these women is 5'3." It all came down to their not wanting to pass on “short genes” to their offspring. shrugs.
    With that said, the biggest (-figuratively) players I’ve known are somewhere between 5'7- 5'9ish and average-less than average-looking, I always figured they were trying to compensate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      The tallest of these women is 5’3.” It all came down to their not wanting to pass on “short genes” to their offspring. shrugs.

      Ha! My husband is 6’3″ and my son is 5’9″. There are no guarantees.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    “Here’s a spoof that is nonetheless right on:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZgyG-wvq2I

    Brilliant. That young lady is hilarious, BTW. Although sarcastic, she makes a very important point. You do not go to the club to look like or be yourself. You (and that “you” includes myself) go to appear to be glamorous. It’s mostly about playing dress-up, listening to too-loud music, and having a fun time. It isn’t about mating, unless you’re looking to hook-up (which I don’t do…because doing so would blur the boundaries between the club and normal life).

    I can imagine that clubs are prime cad hunting grounds, so it makes me raise my eyebrows a bit when someone recommends it as a place to pick up women. http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/24/hookinguprealities/studies-reveal-players-like-their-women-dumb-drunk-and-easy/

  • Herb

    @Susan

    In any case, I think there is probably a lot to be learned from the BDSM community, as communication is a cornerstone and people can (must!) openly say what they want and desire. Perhaps we will see some research in that area – I’ll keep my eyes open. What you seem to be describing is also true of the Taken in Hand folks, I would think. It’s clear that many women do indeed like to submit in that way.

    I know The Surrendered Wife is recommended in a lot of BDSM circles (the woman who convinced me to read it is Gorean but with Leather ties, I’m working to be acknowledged as Leather and generally associate with Leather people) and I think that’s a big one with the Taken in Hand types.

    I know that Taken in Hand, Domestic Discipline, and BDSM cultures have some cross-contact but I’m not sure how much cross fertilization. I know we take from them but I’m not sure how much flows the other way.

  • Rum

    Annaconda
    Interesting point. But for guys, it is a long leap to relate to this because guys know exactly what turns on and what does not and the voice of society has very little to do with it.
    When I was in high school, I desperately did not want to be so turned on by that blond chick with trashy lipstick. I could have been asked to stand up to answer a question.
    Teacher:”Hey, Rum, why did you bring a banana to school in your pants pocket?”
    No woman can relate to this. Nor to having a no-boner with certain females.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    Here’s a spoof that is nonetheless right on:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZgyG-wvq2I

    The sad thing is she looked better at the beginning.

    My favorite of her videos (under her JennaMarbles account) is the famous What Bitches Wear At The Airport. Now I’m on the lookout for fancy bitches, especially on my flight.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      The sad thing is she looked better at the beginning.

      Agreed, she’s pretty without any makeup on at all! It’s an interesting exercise in how women get ready to go out though.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Interesting point. But for guys, it is a long leap to relate to this because guys know exactly what turns on and what does not and the voice of society has very little to do with it.

    Yeah we had acknowledged that the gender has HUGE disconnects going both ways. I think the rawness had a good series explaining that since women were more likely to be taken as brides by other tribes or kidnapped as spoils of war all women inherit a huge flexibility on mating cues and attraction because being fixed on only liking what your tribe teached you will make you harder to submit and bear children in the new environment, so most modern women are also very sensitive to what the “shiny one” whoever that is at the time says, more so than men, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Here’s a spoof that is nonetheless right on:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZgyG-wvq2I

    That was so funny. :D

  • Alias

    “i suspect this is why the bw/wm marital rate is so low in comparison to ”
    ————

    Yes, but that’s exactly why the following is surprising;

    “White husband/NH Black wife couples were 44% less likely to divorce than White/White couples”
    and
    “Therefore, NH Black women and White men who choose to intermarry may be selective of an especially high degree of commitment to their relationship that reduces the potential for divorce”

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3729.2008.00491.x/pdf

  • Rum

    AnnaC
    Watched the Youtube clip…
    OMG, that is her. The trashy looking blond that caused me uncontrollable and inconveniate feelings of love and devotion and tumesence. Well, the last one anyway.
    This is attention whoring/job pimping. She is closer to a 10 than a 9 and she knows it. But there is that 190,000 dollar student loan for that degree in Integrated Emotionality. And, of course, no job in sight.
    The first call she gets from an escort agency/high-end strip joint she is on her way. Youtube mission accomplished.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Alias
    Interesting. I would like to know how “white guilt” plays into this I noticed that white in laws and white relatives are really welcoming of the people of color on their family. They whether knew their genetics and hope to have a generation less prone to die of skin cancer or there is a subconscious level of paying off for their “white privileged” by opening their family to a minority member. Any thoughts on this?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Alas, @Obsidian, @Sassy

    Have you heard about a new book called “Swirling?”
    http://www.amazon.com/Swirling-Relate-Mixing-Culture-Creed/dp/1451625855

    Cristelyn has been getting a lot of press. I follow her on FB. I’m intrigued, more than anything, by her apparent treatment of the topic. I hope that there isn’t any black man bashing or “black man shortage” mythicism in it. I’m thinking about giving it a read.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This is attention whoring/job pimping. She is closer to a 10 than a 9 and she knows it. But there is that 190,000 dollar student loan for that degree in Integrated Emotionality. And, of course, no job in sight.
    The first call she gets from an escort agency/high-end strip joint she is on her way. Youtube mission accomplished.

    Well she was crying over her master’s degree so….

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “I hope that there isn’t any black man bashing or “black man shortage” mythicism in it.”

    The whole “black man shortage” and animosity toward black women thing is definitely tired these days. I’m all for social analysis but there’s way too much faux intellectualism and hurt feelings surrounding this topic these days.

  • Ramble

    I saw one of those JennaMarbles videos where she is wearing those different bikinis, but, my sound as turned off. It seems from that POV that she is looking for socially acceptable ways (look, I am mocking how superficial people can be) to show off how hot she is.

    “OMG, she is so funny and so hot!”

  • PeppermintPanda

    I could be wrong, but I was told previously that there is dramatically more pressure within the black community to prevent black women from being with white men than there was from black men being with white women …

  • Alias

    Anacaona,

    * BTW, they’re referring to non-Hispanic black women.

    According to the article, there haven’t been any/enough studies to show why. It does state that:
    “A substantial literature, mostly focusing on Black/White unions, has shown that these couples experience negative reactions from strangers and diminished support from family and friends”

    So, nope, no white guilt of in-laws. But, it does try to factor in other variables that increase the risk for divorce.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ha! My husband is 6’3″ and my son is 5’9″. There are no guarantees.

    My dad is 5′ 7″ my mom is 5’5′ all of us four siblings are over that. Hubby’s dad might be 5′ 4″ mother 5 5″ hubby is 5′ 11″….I think people forget that diet and environment also influence this things to a point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Determinants_of_growth_and_height

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    * BTW, they’re referring to non-Hispanic black women.

    Heh I was about to chant “Victory for Zim!” when I noticed that. :p

    “A substantial literature, mostly focusing on Black/White unions, has shown that these couples experience negative reactions from strangers and diminished support from family and friends”

    Interesting. Again I might be surrounded by overtly nice people but I usually see them talking about a POC in law with more enthusiasm than about a white one, maybe is just a coincidence…

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “Ha! My husband is 6’3″ and my son is 5’9″. There are no guarantees.”
    ——–

    Why, of course. But, I suppose they think the child will have a better shot. ??
    BTW, I wasn’t discussing ME, ha- I’m 5’7 – I didn’t mind a 5’8 guy but got taller.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Peppermint
    “I could be wrong, but I was told previously that there is dramatically more pressure within the black community to prevent black women from being with white men than there was from black men being with white women …”

    I wouldn’t say that there is more or less…the pressures are different, though.

    I have some second hand experience. There are only bm/ wm relationships in my family (two married, one ltr, and one quasi ltr with a child…my very adorable nephew), no wm/ bw relationships. My mom constantly makes the prediction that I will marry a white guy. Whatever color he is, I hope he’s awesome.

  • Rum

    When a man and woman collide in such a way that they can reliably tolerate each others presence and enjoy the sex that inevitably happens; then undo all the other categories. Instead, just bow down to the miracle in front of you like you have stumbled into a miracle-zone.
    Black, White, Young, Old, Rich, Poor… It is all right out of the Bible.
    We are all Gods Children. And none of us will will get out of here alive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      When a man and woman collide in such a way that they can reliably tolerate each others presence and enjoy the sex that inevitably happens; then undo all the other categories. Instead, just bow down to the miracle in front of you like you have stumbled into a miracle-zone.

      Amen to that. I am in favor of people getting love in any way they find it. The more we are exposed to different people, the more we will cross racial boundaries to mate. There will come a time when all the hand wringing over intermarriage seems quaint. I’m pretty sure I will have Amerasian grandchildren – I can’t wait!

      My cousin, who is Irish like me, married a woman who is half Mexican, half Japanese. (Her parents were both Trotskyites.) Their kids are gorgeous.

      I say let’s just mix everything up and see what happens.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And none of us will will get out of here alive.

    Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I say let’s just mix everything up and see what happens.

    Good advice in dating, bad advice if you are a chemist :p

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    #308 Anacaona
    +1
    This was the most accurate comment of the day. One paragraph explained more than that entire “study”.

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    Scientists believe that the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex may be responsible for processing cues indicating social status or dominance, and it appears that almost all female brains are susceptible to dominance cues.

    Damn, they stole my number one pickup line.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    While its nice to know that youre in favor with people “finding love anyway they can find it” we both know that there will be a significant number of men who get love nor sex for huge chunks of their loves; in manny ways, a fate worse than death. No, the fellas aint your focus, and to be fair, they really aint the focus of other fellas either; just saying that its important to point out. Seems that we havent “progressed” as much as we would like to believe as a species, hmm?

    As for your question to me wrt game: there have been at this point, easily dozens of men whove reported from their own lives what theyve actually seen with their own two eyes, including me. Need i remind you that we dont know each other and come from completely different walks of life? Are all of us wrong? Really?

    I dont have a problem whatsoever with any woman choosing or rejecting any man she wants; what i have a problem with is the refusal of women to be held accountable for it. That was the whole point of my piece for the good men project, and i am very sad to say, that women arent acquitting themselves very well if the responses there are any indication.

    Yes, its true that relationships (or love, or sex) arent a right; but what it amounts to for many men, is a bitter fact of life that is an abstract or alien concept for so many women. Life aint fair, and men in particular know this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Seems that we havent “progressed” as much as we would like to believe as a species, hmm?

      I don’t know about that. From a strictly biological standpoint, survival of the fittest doesn’t make sense if everyone is equally fit. Only those who can attract a mate get a shot at reproducing. It seems to me that’s a key feature of the species – and not just ours.

      As for your question to me wrt game: there have been at this point, easily dozens of men whove reported from their own lives what theyve actually seen with their own two eyes, including me.

      Field Reports are great, but let’s face it, there are no controls. Your particular level of knowledge and expertise makes it pretty clear you’re the real deal, but there are Game bloggers who are “keyboard alphas,” still trying to get by on “fake it till you make it.” Just recently Roissy posted a list of playful, dominant gestures that are panty droppers, including the suggestion that you should tape a “Kick me” sign to her back as she leaves the house in the morning. I mean, seriously…

      I’m not disputing the efficacy of Game. I’m questioning the quality of the deployment, not to mention understanding, of quite a few of those dozens of men.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @alias:
    Please review my whole comment and do not take out of context what i have said; i have posited that the benefits of being with a high status man could offset any potential downsides when it came to bw/wm pairings-clearly, the sistas involved gained socially etc from the union. What is also known from what we can tell, is that the white men in such unions do indeed take a hit in their social standing and status.

    @ms rwc: funny me and your own mama would come to the same conclusion, & we dont even know each other(!). Profiling aint such a bad thing huh?

    And yea, i know about christelyn karazins book; google “the season of the sistahoods dissedcontent” along with my name and hers and youll see my addressing some of her inane views. She claims not to be about brotha bashing; ill let you decide for yourself. Personally, i think your time and money would be better spent on banks’ book (which karazin & co fawned over btw) but hey, thats your call. At any rate id say that shes in the same boat as many of the sistas banks discussed-darker skinned (the pic on her blog has been HEAVILY photoshopped/lightened) and all the rest of it. Fits the profile alright…

    @peppermint panda:
    The only real resistence in black america to any form of ir dating and the like has always come from sistas and thats true to this day; google up jill scott for more on this point.

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “@ms rwc: funny me and your own mama would come to the same conclusion, & we dont even know each other(!). Profiling aint such a bad thing huh?”

    Yes, that is kind of funny. Mom and I aren’t very close, dad “gets” me more than mom ever will, and mom doesn’t have the best of attitudes about black men, especially after the divorce.

    @Peppermint

    I’ve heard my fair share of stories of black men attacking non-white men for being bold enough to date a black woman. Attacks also some from black women against black men who date white women. Each side has a very one-sided view. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    The only real resistence in black america to any form of ir dating and the like has always come from sistas and thats true to this day; google up jill scott for more on this point.

    Oh please. You should know better than to make generalizations such as this.

    You wouldn’t believe how many times black men have tried to convince me (they literally tried to talk me out of it) to not date white men, or who have been belligerent towards me because of my dating preferences. A few of my boyfriends, who were white, have nearly been jumped by black men on several occasions for dating me. I’ve been called a traitor to my race by a few black men as well. It’s not solely a “sista problem”.

    I’ve noticed that “brothas” tend to be very uptight whenever a very attractive “sista” (7-10) dates outside her race. Suddenly, they want to claim ownership of those black women, like they have sole rights to that dating pool.

    Portraying sistas as the sole instigators/proprietors of grief over interracial dating couldn’t be more false.

    You honestly have no idea what it’s like to be a black woman who dates white men. It’s a whole different ball game from what you know.

    You should stick to talking about “intelligent brothas who can’t get any love from sistas”. That seems to be what you know the most about.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @sassy & ms rwc:
    Well well! Seems i struck a raw nerve here, hmm?

    Lets really lance the boil, shall we?

    Sassy-you are talking about anecdote; i am presenting documented fact. Perhaps you may not be aware of it but jill scott, in her role as a member of the essence magazine staff, had gone on record registering her disdain for brothbas dating/marrying out.

    Fun question for you: please name me the black male equivalent to jill scott, who took to the media in kind? Ill wait. :)

    You can attack me all you like-more, please!-because when you do, all youll be proving is just how right i am after all. If what you say is indeed true about all these brothas who feel some kind of way about sistas like you dating white guys, it should be very easy for you to present easily verifiable proof-no, taking your word for it is not enough. In addition to jill scott, i can also mention terry mcmillan (waiting to exhale), the film “save the last dance”, the major flak tiger woods, kobe bryant and oj simpson got for their romantic/sexual choices from sistas…the list goes on. Lets see what you can come up with that supports your argument.

    If you cant you would be doing us all a favor by sticking to the theatre; straightahead debate doesnt suit you. ;)

    Ms rwc: while your estrangement from your ma dukes is indeed regrettable, the fact that she nevertheless came to the same conclusion i did, and we do not know each other speaks volumes to me. Oh, and while i cant speak for her feelings on your more than probable union with a white man, i for one have no problem whatsoever with it. Im all for freedom of association.

    As for your moms views about black men “after the divorce” im curious-are her views in part, informs yours wrt marriage/ltrs?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Sassy-you are talking about anecdote; i am presenting documented fact.

      Ha, you just offered up the “dozens of anecdotes” as documented fact!

      I’d forgotten how maddening you are to argue with Obs, you dodge and weave. I’m not going to go there :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Oh, & ms sassy, just for sh*ts and giggles, does your parting shot to me that you agree with my general proposition-that in aggregate, black women do NOT select for intelligence in their men? Hmm?

    ;)

    O.

  • Mireille

    Obsidian,
    Whatever pop star’s limited opinion does not relevance show. I could share my anecdotal evidence here, would that be considered a “documented” fact? Also, if I’m not mistaken, Jill Scott was actually making all that drama because she believed that Black men were underestimated in this society and that they shouldn’t have to marry outside their race to prove their worth. So that anger comes actually from a good place. After all, if black men of “high status” refuse to pass on that attribute to their female counterpart, how can they continue saying that BW don’t confere high status? Redundant and convenient.
    OTOH, Though I’m French, I’m also black and have dated both black and white, I have to say those white guys treated me way better than the black ones, (unfortunately?!). For them, an educated and trilingual woman was probably quite the catch; being black added to the enigma. I don’t believe any of them thought they were losing standing in society because of me. And that is one of the things I actually like about dating out of my race and white especially is that those guys didn’t care what the impact on their standing was going to be, they’re free in their mind and that’s attractive. I’m quite a tough cookie myself and not quite sure I’d do well with a black man with insecurities about his race, let alone his self-confidence and sense of self-worth. We all agreed that this is a huge turn off for all women in general.

    Obs, I see you take lots of example from hip hop culture, maybe this is why I can’t relate; reading that you consider Kanye West intelligent (talented at best, considering how that word has been rundown) and that the hottest women are in the club (seriously?!), I can only take your opinion with loads of salt since yourself you do not have access to diverse experiences across the vast spectrum of the black experience. Moderation is in order.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Mierelle:
    Bon jour!-and oui, moderation is indeed in order; for any black woman from france to attempt to lecture me or anyone else about the matter of bw/wm pairings, in light of the exploits of one dominique strauss khan, truly does need to think before speaking. I understand he too had a liking for, ah…taking the sistas.

    And no, you got jill scott all wrong-her problem was/is, that she is unable to attract the high status black males in her social circle. Why? Well, to be frank, because shes fat, thats why-and high status black men have made it clear that they dont find her shape to be appealing.

    You see, when you understand game, you start hearing what women are really saying beneath the words. Its called subcommunication. Try it with your friends!

    I know it chaps your hide to hear it but kanye west is indeed an intelligent man; you just dont happen to dig hip hop is all. Too bad for you.

    If im so very out to lunch it seems very odd that you would come all the way to france to give me a piece of your mind; i think the real reason why youre hear is the same as ms sassys kneejerk id-monster fueled rant-because what ive said hit a raw vein of truth and it hurts.

    Hmm.

    Anytime you want to come correct with all those documented sources of all these black men up in arms about sistas dating/marrying out, by all means lay it on me!-im all ears…

    :)

    O.

  • Kios

    I’m a five foot six man with a receding hairline. If i’m not dominant in some kind of way, or flash my money around, i’m not going to be dating attractive women – PERIOD!!!

    I just want to say though that much of this nonsense is cultural rather than purely biological. I’ve lived in quite a few countries and experienced dating scenes in these places, and what i noticed is that women in some countries have different attitudes towards men and dating. In Greece, for example, where my father was born, women tend to be way more forgiving about a man’s looks. They do not have the same crude, instrumentalist view of his worth that women in the Anglosphere tend to have, at least not for an LTR anyway. And attraction to them is just that – attraction. it comes in a whole variety of different forms, and there isn’t the whole ‘oh i can do better than him’ mentality that rules the dating scene in the U.S/Canada/Australia. I know because i’m not a great looking guy, and i was dating very attractive women when i lived there, and that was before i even made any money. I could attract 7′s on a regular basis, and even dated a few 8′s. In Australia, the country i was born and raised in, i would only attract a 7 if i busted my hump and it was a total fluke.

    Of course women with money i can go up to a 8.5 at least, but that’s a different story.

  • Thrasymachus

    Sassy@271:

    Despite your arguments to the contrary, there are more than twice as many marriages between black men and white women in the United States as there are between white men and black women. The imbalance between cohabiting couples is even greater. Similarly, five out of every six black-Asian couples consist of a black husband and a white wife. In the U.S. black women are by far the group least likely to marry outside their race.

    While Britain and France both have significantly higher rates of intermarriage than the U.S., in each country there are more than twice as many BM/WW couples as there are WM/BW ones. These patterns persist despite the fact that, as you pointed out, white men on average have higher SMV rankings than black ones do. Note that for Asian-white couples in the U.S. the trend is reversed – there are more than twice as many WM/AW marriages as there are AM/WW ones.

    Obsidian’s analysis of these issues is on target.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Totally off-topic, but can’t resist linking this:

    Alexander Hamilton, Chick Magnet?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    If i am indeed “maddening to argue with”-its because my interlocutors fail repeatedly to counter my arguments with anythoing substantive of their own. Everything i cited to ms sassy i not only can back up with a simple and quick google search, they also are examples that anyone can verify-not what she and royale w/cheese do, ala “ive heard stories” or “ive experienced thus and so”. Again, ms rwc and ms sassy have tried to suggest that the levels of consternation wrt black/white ir dating/marriage are one to one insofar as black women and men are concerned, and i am throwing down the gauntlet-let them prove what they say is true. No, i havent offered logitidinal studies-but what i have offered beats anything theyve put up thus far by a country mile. Moreover, none of them have been able to counter my points about status and social standing and this is borne out in the stats thras has mentioned. Simply put, theres a reason why black women are the least desired when it comes to putting a ring on it by white men, and its because doing so incurs heavy social status costs for him. This too has been documented, by others like ralph richard banks-whose entire book was an arguemnt in favor of bw/ww marriage i might add. At some point you just have to recognize reality, regardless as to how painful it is.

    Biggups to thras btw. Good looking out bro!

    O.

  • Travis

    “…there have been at this point, easily dozens of men whove reported from their own lives what theyve actually seen with their own two eyes, including me. Need i remind you that we dont know each other and come from completely different walks of life? Are all of us wrong? Really?”

    Sorry Obsidian, but am I the only one who finds it ironic that you would post the previous statement in response to Susan’s “verifiable proof”, and then to post THIS in response to Sassy, Royale, and Mireille’s assertions that they’ve had black men treat them badly for dating white men:

    “If what you say is indeed true about all these brothas who feel some kind of way about sistas like you dating white guys, it should be very easy for you to present easily verifiable proof-no, taking your word for it is not enough.”

    As a white guy, the last thing I want to do is jump into an argument about race between a black guy and three black women, but the hypocrisy here seems pretty glaring, if you don’t mind my saying so…

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I just want to drive home the point again in case anybody misunderstands-when it comes to who makes the loudest noise in black america over b/w ir dating and the like, the arrow of evidence that can be independently verified points in the direction of the sistas; to be honest i dont think most brothas care one way or the other. And that nonchalance on the part of brothas can be seen on a whole range of issues i might add.

    For example-where are all the black male bloggers bemoaning sistas dating out? There was a black blogging conference here in my hometown over the weekend where even they admitted that easily twice as many, if not more, sista bloggers exist as do brotha ones. When it comes to such things, sistas easily dominate-i do not think its unfair to say that im one of the relative few brotha bloggers out there. And even among us, its hard to assemble a list of us who are just foaming at the mouth about sistas dating out.

    Now lets ask that same question only focusing on the plethora of sista bloggers. To ask the question is to answer it.

    One final point…

    My whole line of argument wasnt dealing with bm/ww pairings but since thras done went there, let me say this: such pairings persist at the same rates thras mentioned, throughout the socioeconomic spectrum. Iow, it is just as likely that a poorer black men will have a white wifey as a rich one-not so on the sista side. What relatively few pairings that do take place there tend to be among the better heeled. If indeed white women take a huge hit for their “transgression”-and i for one dont disagree with that notion-and if black men as a group have much lower social status than white men in aggregate-again something i readily concede-how then are we to explain this? Nevermind the fact that sistas had at least several centuries headstart on brothas in the ir mating game, and, that the mere suspicion of brothas even looking at white women could get themselves, their families, indeed their entire communities killed.

    Add to that the fact that the numbers of aw/wm pairings in the usa are the largest of all ir groups, and have been easily for the past few decades with no signs of abating. Keep in mind the fact that we as a country, WAS AT WAR with many of these asian womens ancestral homelands: japan, vietnam, korea, laos, cambodia, and our relationship with china is “cool” at best. The usa has never been at war with any african state. How do the swirlers explain this?

    Again at some point, one has to face up to the facts.

    O.

  • Travis

    @Obsidian,
    To clarify that last post: I’m not saying you’re right or wrong in regards to where BM/BF stand or IR dating. As far as that goes, I have no clue. I’m merely pointing out that your standards of “proof” seem to differ depending on what side of a debate you’re on…

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @travis:
    I think its fair to say that my position is far more consistent that the my sista interlocutors. Why dont you actually google up my assertions and see the evidence for yourself, and then decide? Why dont you read my past few posts, and explain to me how to account for such large disparities?

    Much of the disagreement w/ms walsh on the topic of this post was that the “study” she references is anything but; its a hypothetical model, to which ladies responded. If you will kindly note, i personally didnt quibble over that; i took what ms walsh presented on its face. Rather my position was that she couldnt offer any evidence that beta male traits were indeed that much in demand among the under 30-aged women…and thus far my contention seems to hold up.

    Moreover when i confronted ms walsh with the simple fact that, by definition, the majority of men cannot get “prestige” she conceded that she had no comeback. So even if the hypothetical model “study” she presented was 100% true, it would mean nothing to the vast majority of men who wound up on the outside looking in.

    Perhaps you will be able to succeed where ms walsh has failed, in explaining what those guys do? I for one would sure like to hear it.

    Finally: my point to ms walsh about all the field reports i and other men have witnessed that run wholly counter to what she advocates was to highlight the fact that, unlike her response to me above, all of these guys arent dark game acolytes-they are male regulars of her own blog. Moreover, i have virtually nothing in common with them and in some cases have had vehement open disagreements with them. Iow, we come from all walks of life. Yet NONE OF US have been able to say that what ms walsh advocates has actually played itself out in any of our lives, most certainly in our younger lives. I think if anything, the unity of view from so men from so many walks of life, right under ms walsh’s nose, says something very powerful to me; indeed, it mirrors the famed 37 culture study undertaken by prof david buss…

    Holla back-if you can… ;)

    O.

  • Ramble

    There will come a time when all the hand wringing over intermarriage seems quaint.

    Bullshit.

    Just ask Brasil.

    Very dark skinned at the bottom of the social-economic ladder and very light skinned at the top…and very color conscious in the middle.

    (And Brasil is the most “integrated” country in the world, as far as I can tell.)

  • Ramble

    Totally off-topic, but can’t resist linking this:

    Alexander Hamilton, Chick Magnet?

    From the article, the Eighth Grade girl said, “We had a Mister Hamiltonian Pageant, where we made the four guys in the club compete to see who most embodied the Hamiltonian ideal,”

    IOW, let the boys fight it out so we can see who is the most Alpha.

    Had one of the boys been more perceptive, he could have told them to put on their bikinis and the prettiest one could crown the proper Hamilton.

  • yareallypua

    Mystery learned game the same way all the old school PUAs did and the way new guys do now: They went out day and night for years approaching people and getting into social interactions and methodically breaking down their combined results.

    It wasn’t one guy approaching 50 girls and making conclusions. It was 500+ guys approaching 500+ girls each and comparing notes, looking for patterns, challenging and testing out eachother’s conclusions, purposely exploring the extremes (super asshole alpha, super nice guy beta, and everything in-between) on girls from 1-10 on the looks scale in venues from coffee shops in the day time, malls, college campuses, foreign countries, etc all the way to the classic nightclub. Now the number of PUAs out there is huge and there’s 10 years worth of hundreds of thousands of Field Reports to compare (even if some guys are exaggerating or making their FRs up, the sheer number of FRs out there make the occasional fake report insignificant. Also fake FRs are usually easy to spot because they don’t follow game principles in places…it’s like someone writing 2+2=5, you know it doesn’t follow the rules of math so it’s obvious that person was making that up).

    PUA isn’t based around “theories” or extrapolating numbers and guessing at outcomes. It’s based around cold hard in-the-field experience of what works and what doesn’t work. If PUAs found that nice guy game worked, that would be what they teach.

    Game is also always evolving. PUAs aren’t still sticking 100% to what you read in The Game or MM. If you did some research you’d find game has evolved over time and isn’t the way you describe it as codified and based on old outdated research.

    On any given night there are hundreds if not thousands of PUAs going out and exploring the game and tweaking the teachings to get sharper and more efficient.

    I think people, especially women, have a hard time wrapping their head around what a phenomenal combined effort this was and still is, party because they’ve never been a part of such a big movement that expanded so fast, and partly because it’s too scary to accept since when you look at it objectively you realize there really is no way to prevent massive abuse of the skill-set…silly scientific studies, blog articles by women and white knights, face to face scolding and shaming…NONE of that can counter the consistent and logically explainable, very real, massive amounts of combined experience that men have collected on game concepts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareallypua

      Eh, there are lots of ex-PUAs who are highly critical of it. There are also many, many PUAs who do tons of approaches without getting too many closes. Guys who count getting digits as a close. I have known two women who dated highly successful PUAs who grew tired of the life and wanted a gf. They were such a hot mess – emotionally wacked, zero relationship skills, didn’t know what the hell to do after 72 hours.

      In any case, I don’t really care about PUA, nor do I have a problem with it. That’s a strictly short-term maneuver, it doesn’t intersect with my own interests. I’m focused on what works in relationships, and guys who don’t want them (or are incapable of having them) are useful only as red flags for the “Don’t Do” list.

      For men who prefer relationships, Game can help a lot there too, but it obviously requires modification – a la Married Men Sex Life or Keoni Galt.

      Of course, Game is amoral, and its implementation reflects the character of the PUA. I never saw any deception or other indication of poor character from Mystery or Style. Unfortunately, lots of you young PUA whippersnappers are more flexible in that area. Not taking aim at you personally, of course.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    I dont know whether you honestly didnt get my point or was kinda sidestepping it; so let me come at it this way…

    In that we are both very familiar w/the writings of buss, you should know well the truth of all mammalian life-that entire swaths of the MALES NEVER GET TO MATE. Now, you could say, with good reason, this is so because they have failed to display/possess that which the females most desired-if you do, i wouldnt disagree.

    The problem though-and hence my comment-is the fact that there is a small percentage of females who also fail to deliver the goods, and thus wind up spinsters throughout the animal kingdom.
    Yet-when it comes to humans-we focus a heck of a lot MORE on the relative few spinsters, than on the bachelors. For example, take someone you know well-one ms kate bolick. Not only has she written a tome about her travails as a nearly 40-something single lady (ahem, spinster) in the atlantic, shes been able tp parlay that into a tv show/movie right?

    Now lets ask this question-where is the “kevin” bolick-because all the evidence points to his existence alright…

    But you see, to ask the question, is to answer it.

    And hence my point-we as a species, have come to accept as normative entire cohorts of males not making the cut-indeed, one of my major beefs with ralph richard banks, was his suggestion that we simply “write off” black men. We would never say such a thing of women, no matter what their station or actions.

    Hence my assertion that we havent “progressed” nearly as much as we would like to think as a race.

    As you know, game has many detractors-and the truly regrettable thing about it is that the roissys of the world provide cover for many of those detractors. Why do i say that?

    Because i am in venues where it is all but certain people dont even know who roissy etc et al are-uet their hackles get equally as raised at the mere mention of a men refusing to accept his fate, his station, in the mating game. This is perhaps most virulent among women themselves, no surprise, as ive said last night-women EXPECT men to settle.

    There is something deeply psychologically unsettling about a man rising above his reproductive station to many women and a not insigificant number of men-and “dark game” has little to do with it.

    Here is where the feminist-rubber hits the realworld road-if we are to truly question old world conventions and to reimagine our world, then we can start with the kevin bolicks of the world, who easily outnumber their female counterparts. That such a question isnt even on the radar screen, just goes to prove my point, that the more things change the more they stay the same.

    :)

    Holla back

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Yet-when it comes to humans-we focus a heck of a lot MORE on the relative few spinsters, than on the bachelors.

      Ah, I did miss your point. No argument from me here.

      There is something deeply psychologically unsettling about a man rising above his reproductive station to many women and a not insigificant number of men-and “dark game” has little to do with it.

      That doesn’t make sense. One’s reproductive “station” is not preordained. Cleverness is certainly a survival skill – if a man can analyze his environment and discover what is in demand, then alter himself to provide more of that, he’s changing his outcome. In a real way, he is besting other males. Game is adaptive – and can redefine the hierarchy of “stations” by increasing the supply of sexually attractive traits.

      One can see this in the constant online discussions of various opening line gambits. You’d think everything would have been tried by now, but Dannyfrom504 and Dogsquat both regularly share tips from their own successes, and I’m continually impressed and amused by their creativity.

      I don’t know why any woman or men would resent that. Well, I take that back. I get why feminists resent it, because it’s based on bio sex differences, which they refute.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Susan,

    This is a terrific article. The distinction between dominance and prestige is an important one, and one that moves the discussion beyond the “bad boy” and “nice guy” antitheses.

    Men should take heed.

  • Kathy

    “I am not an unusual woman. I would describe myself as having a high sex drive (sorry for the TMI). I can tell you that never once in my life have I felt the slightest tingle for dominant, callous, insensitive, asshole, cocky behavior. Not. One. Time. I know many other women like me. Please don’t tell me what I like, or that I don’t know what I like.”

    YES! YES! YES!

    Same here, Susan!

    But if you point this out on any manosphere blog you will be howled down , and derided..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kathy

      But if you point this out on any manosphere blog you will be howled down , and derided..

      Yes, but it only took me dozens of attempts to learn that!

  • Kios

    OBSI: “This is perhaps most virulent among women themselves, no surprise, as ive said last night-women EXPECT men to settle.

    There is something deeply psychologically unsettling about a man rising above his reproductive station to many women and a not insigificant number of men-and “dark game” has little to do with it.”

    Agree, that’s why i have to laugh whenever women give you the old pat reminder that ‘women don’t care as much about looks as men’, but then get their nose bent out of shape when they see a great looking girl with an average looking man.

    Women view dating as a kind of caste system, regardless of what they say, and looks are just a basic component of the overall game.

  • yareallypua

    http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?action=prevnext&offset=636&grp=alt.seduction.fast.fieldreports

    Here’s a link to over 19,000 Field Reports (each contains from 1-10+ interactions but usually around 2-5).

    That’s just *ONE* PUA forum, that isn’t even very active anymore, and that’s JUST the Field Reports section, not the general discussion or tactics/technique discussion sections etc.

    http://www.fastseduction.com/archives/

    There links to downloadable archives of Mystery, Style, TylerDurden, and a bunch of other well known PUA names. Tyler’s archive ALONE has something like 50 PDFs with 100+ pages of game discussion in each one.

    So ya, PUAs know what they’re talking about. Your theories based on observing a few people in your social circle doesn’t really hold up if it contradicts all of this data and experience (since PUAs don’t just read reports, we go out on top of it and test new concepts out). I’m not trying to be rude, this is just logical.

  • Ramble

    YES! YES! YES!

    Same here, Susan!

    But if you point this out on any manosphere blog you will be howled down , and derided..

    Kathy, it is all because of how “alpha” is defined.

    For instance, Susan has on many occasions referred to her husband as Beta, but, in other instances, has implied the Alpha things that she was attracted to (and, now, I learn that he is 6’3″).

    The terms are generic and malleable enough that each side can almost constantly declare ideological victory.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    I agree, I wish he’d bring it up. I can’t exactly say to him “dude, you suck at meeting women, let me help you”.

    Another brief example of my earlier post on how girls/guys think of “assholes”. I was at dinner with 4 girls and 4 guys this weekend. Two of the guys there were what you might call “nice guys”. The other two (me and another friend, let’s call him Dave) you might not. My friend (one of the nice guys) decided to start a count to see which of Dave and I would say more negative things during the dinner. Negative could range from an insult directed at each other to “the Rangers really suck”. Every 5 remarks we had to take a shot of sake. We both topped 15 in 2 hours I believe. The other two guys didn’t even get above 2-3. The reason is they censor themselves and act much “nicer” around women. They go out of their way not to “offend” people. What they don’t understand is that girls love to do the “I can’t believe you said that” or “you’re such a jerk” comments when they see guys act like this, but they aren’t actually offended. In fact, a lot of girls who do the “I can’t believe you said that” will be the ones in your bed next week. I honestly HATE to say this, because I think it’s the worst platitude, but it’s honestly about “being yourself”. As in not to treat the girls with kid gloves, because they’re delicate little snowflakes who might not be able to handle what you have to say. These two “nice guys”, had it been just men at the table, would have been going back and forth with Dave and me all evening, but they didn’t because they were too worried one of the girls might take umbrage at their remarks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      As in not to treat the girls with kid gloves, because they’re delicate little snowflakes who might not be able to handle what you have to say.

      Agree. In fact, women like watching male banter. It’s funny and interesting, because we don’t do it. I will say that there are certain things that probably shouldn’t be discussed in front of women, or even at the dinner table. Aside from that, I think in this era it’s not really possible to offend women’s “sensibilities.”

  • yareallypua

    Whoops Tyler’s archive only has 2600 articles my bad, I’m posting from my iPhone and haven’t read his archives in a while lol

    The point is, it’s a lot. :)

  • Kathy

    Hey Ramble ! My hubby is 5’6″
    What diff does height make? He is extremely fit with good muscle tone.
    My husband has always been an honest straight up front kind of guy. Not cocky. Not sleazy. Not a smart arse. Never put me down..
    Strong confident and won’t put up with shit.
    A good ,kind, decent man with a wicked sense of humour, who, how can I put this??..Hmmm.. rocks my world every time and always has.. ;)

  • PeppermintPanda

    @yareallypua

    The PUA community did not study random samples of women and perform controlled experiments to see what women were attracted to in general, they went into environments that were disproportionately filled with women who were looking for short term dating and approached women who were dressed and groomed in a way to maximize interest from the opposite sex. Beyond that they disregard the 90% of approaches that were unsuccessful and fixate on the 10% of successful approaches. While this involves great information for someone who is looking to get laid, it doesn’t tell us much about what women are interested in generally.

    Essentially, rather than it being skills that can be used to pick up women you could see game as being skills that help you find women that can easily be picked up.

    “Shit tests” are often a sign of insecurity with women, and in small numbers they are a sign that she is interested in you but in high numbers they’re a sign of a very troubled and needy girl. The reason so much of game is dealing with shit tests is the neediest girls are the most likely to get picked up, not because all women act in this way.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com MuleChewingBriars

    Obsidian’s point , and I support him in it -

    I don’t read a lot magazines targeted to Black men, but in the ones I have seen (King, Smooth) I haven’t noticed any mention of the Black woman/White man dynamic. Even the Black man/White woman pairing was only mentioned in passing, as in “Is it right for brothers to be dating white women when there are so many fine sisters available?”, that sort of thing.

    The women in these magazines are black, or often dark-skinned Hispanic. I’ve never seen a White woman in one.

    In contrast, the magazines marketed to Black women (Essence being the major culprit here) you almost can’t open an issue without two things jumping right out at you:

    1) There is a palpable resentment towards Black men who are able to date White women. There is also a little resentment towards the White women, but not so much. The reason usually stated is that there are not enough “quality” or “marriageable” Black men to go around, and White women poaching them only adds to the problem.

    2) University educated Black women should get used to dating outside their race. The average clueless White guy comes off as pretty attractive in Essence. Maybe White women should read it to see what they are missing.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ramble:
    Spot on re: brazil. Henry louis “skip” gates, a longtime harvard academic, has done an excellent series on pbs that examines/explores life for black folk in latin america; he spends a good bit of time in brazil and cosigns everything you just said.

    @yrpua:
    Excellently well put. Let me just also add the following:

    That another reason why some women react violentl to the concept of game, is because it demystifies sexual attraction and romantic courtship; we know, from the groundbreaking rearches of ogi ogas and david buss, that “mystery” plays a huge role to women in all this. Game takes the mystery out of it, makes the whole mating game linear…

    …and gives men POWER.

    Indeed, if you read socalled sex positive and supposedly “male friendly” feminist clarrisse thorns bromides on game, whats really at the root of it is her concern that game gives too many men real power over their own lives, but womens as well. Too bad shes either unable or unwilling to just come right out and say that.

    Keep on keepin on, soldier!

    O.

  • Windy

    By being 6 feet tall and higher, a man automatically achieves Alpha Male territory. It doesn’t really make sense for women to claim they’re married to beta males, to give hope to the men who weren’t blessed with genetic godhood when in truth the guys they married are even above 6’3” which makes these guys some of the tallest males to ever be born on planet Earth.

    That’s like saying Pamela Anderson was hot because of her voice, nothing to do with her legs, butt, breasts and lips, lol.

    Reminds me of a college survey we had a few months ago. Women were asked if they minded dating men whose height was inferior to the national average. Most of them said they didn’t mind a man’s height, that it was how she feels when they are around their mate.

    Then the young women were asked how tall their boyfriend was and all tall all of their ex-boyfriends are.

    Everyone said 6 feet and above, lol. The women who emphatically remarked that a man’s height is irrelevant in the context of possible sexual attraction said that, all of their ex-boyfriends, FWB’s and one-night stands were at least 6’6” , lol.

    When asked why the need for a man that tall existed, the women said they felt protected, feminine, no man would treat her badly.

    It works like this.

    Teen boys only need to be 6 feet tall because most of the girls don’t use heels yet. At age 25 most women(at least many, many are) decided that they’re more attractive or have more status by using heels. The boyfriend has to be upgraded to 6’2” at least, and that depends on how tall the woman is.

    I’m of average height and I’m decent-looking and throughout my ”dating” career I always tried to pay more attention to the very short women(4’11”/5’3”) only to get shot down because all of them were dating or only interested in men who towered 6’2” and above.

    It is not as bad as one might think, for the average man and for the below average man. I am not going to lie. Sexual frustration sucks to deal with, but when you think it through you come to the conclusion that being out of sexual radar of women helps you out.

    For example, last week a friend of mine was waiting for his bus to arrive. It was late, there was no one near him. Suddenly he hears glass break. He turns and sees a woman quickly approaching his bus stop. Her body language was a mirror of fear, insecurity and despair. He ollowed her eyes to see a brute of a man.

    What did he do? He got up, picked his bag and walked the 5 minutes to another bus stop. Next day, he picks the newspaper and finds out that the woman was raped and killed. I asked him what he would’ve done if he knew what was going to happen to the woman.

    He first inquires me with some astounding body language at being asked a question I already should know the answer to and then, with the most neutral of tone voices says, ” Women don’t qualify me as a sexual person nor as a potential romantic relationship partner because tall men can make them feel special, feminine, protected and loved; if I’m not tall, only of average height, I cannot elicit such responses from women, which means that I cannot protect women for I am not a real man, and If I’m not a man, only a mass of flesh, why should I risk my life over someone who wouldn’t notice my existence had she not been in need of support?”

    It stunned me for a second that men the most powerful of revolutions does not pertain the use of firepower and the shedding of blood and tears; that the greatest of revolutions will commence with the total indifference from the beta male to the plights and needs of women.

    lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      By being 6 feet tall and higher, a man automatically achieves Alpha Male territory.

      Hmmm, I disagree with that. I’m sure Mike C and Dogsquat would as well. I’ve known a lot of tall “teddy bears” – the guys that get endlessly friendzoned.

      Men describe having been “betaized” while growing up in the feminist era. This reeducation would not have had anything to do with height. Height might be a genetic advantage, but culture can easily trump or erase it.

  • Ramble

    What diff does height make?

    Come on, Kathy. Are you really asking why some girl might, just possibly, put a man’s 6’3″ tall stature in the ‘alpha’ column?

    That doesn’t mean that you have to agree with it, but, really?

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Herb,

    Let’s say, for some reason, mastery of a broad selection of woodwinds can make a woman horny (hey, a guy can dream). Okay, so far so good. But I only get prestige for that if I’m embedded in a social group where:

    1. Other men will respect me for that (say, being a session jazz performer).
    2. There are women in that social group who see those men respecting me for it.

    Yes. This, exactly.

    But knowing this is terrific, because it allows you to develop strategies for success. First, you focus on self-development (which in this case would consist of increasing your prestige in one or more areas of your life). Then, you focus your attention on women who are somehow vested in the particular groups in which you’ve achieved prestige.

    Not only is that guaranteed to get you more success with women than learning how to “open sets,” it’s going to provide you with more personal fulfillment as well.

  • Windy

    ”What diff does height make? He is extremely fit with good muscle tone.”

    That’s another side of the coin women use to reject the notion that the only men who can be masculine are the tall blokes. See, muscles and fitness already grant him an Alpha status, making it irrelevant the notion that not all women are interested in tall men; women forget that what they see in the big screen doesn’t have it’s equal in reality.

    Most men cannot develop the physique some short men work so hard to get, to compensate for their below average height. I have personally trained with guys who dedicated their entire lives to bodybuilding and they could only put a couple of pounds at most, and that was with the help of vitamins, energy bars etc.

    I have known guys who put on lean muscle every time they flex their biceps, and not one of them used steroids(like my brother).

    Since most men are either skinny, chubby, or just normal, and can never become Van Damme, it does make sense for the majority of men to consume their time with hobbies and they sexual desires with masturbation and porn.

    Why the heck should young men give their money to greedy gym? Why should men have to alter the entire structure of their body just to get one look from below average/average women when even the most below average of women can and does have male attention by the bucket?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Yes, i am very familiar with “former puas” like mark manson, who freely admit that they wouldnt be where they are without game. Very strong anti-game endorsement! ;)

    Btw, he moderates his blog forum, something that i find detestable, especially from a man. You know how much i like to mix it up-his putting roadblocks up like that tells me that he really built like that…

    (*channels brad pitt/achilles in “troy”-the scene where he walks up to hectors front door and calls him to step outside…*)

    O.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Susan,

    I never saw any deception or other indication of poor character from Mystery or Style.

    I don’t know, it’s been a while since I read The Game, but I seem to recall Strauss knowingly gaming women with boyfriends or husbands.

    I could be wrong.

  • yareallypua

    @sw

    “That’s a strictly short-term maneuver, it doesn’t intersect with my own interests. I’m focused on what works in relationships”

    You’re just making stuff up now. Game concepts apply to relationships, with a little tweaking (as you said yourself).

    http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?action=prevnext&offset=216&grp=alt.seduction.relationships

    Here’s a link to about 6,500 discussions “tweaking” game for long term relationships, marriages, mLTRs, open relationships, etc. Again this is just one site.

    A lot of PUAs don’t want relationships just because we realize the whole one special person thing is kind of limited. Why not have a handful l special persons lol

    @Peppermint
    “they went into environments that were disproportionately filled with women who were looking for short term dating and approached women who were dressed and groomed in a way to maximize interest from the opposite sex. ”

    Please re-read my post for the part where I mentioned coffee shops, malls, campuses, etc. Let me add some more places PUAs sarge: buses, subways, planes, airports, hobby groups, online, on the street, fast food restaraunts, bookstores, etc.

    Please re-read my post where I mentioned hitting on everything on the 1-10 scale? That’s why we know different tactics get different results depending on where on the 1-10 scale the girl is, where she thinks she is, where other people think she is, how her looks rating doesn’t mean her personality or overall value as a human being is the same value, etc.

    “from the opposite sex. Beyond that they disregard the 90% of approaches that were unsuccessful and fixate on the 10% of successful approaches”

    You are literally just making stuff up now. How do you think we break down what doesn’t work? From analyzing the unsuccessful pickups. In fact we even have a name for different categories of Field Reports:

    FU : F***-Up report, this is that “unsuccessful” category you said we ignore, except oh no wait we have an entire category for that!

    OR : Observational Report, just an outing without any real approaches
    FR : A general outing approaching girls
    FR+ : FR with some sexy times like a BJ but not a full close
    LR : Lay Report
    LR+ : epic lay report probably involving more than one girl in a day
    LR++++!!!! : 3-somes or other crazy stuff lol

    ““Shit tests” are often a sign of insecurity with women”

    I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be rude, but you have NO idea what you’re talking about here.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @scott lasley:
    Sorry champ, but as i said to, well, he calls himself “champ” last week over at very smart brothas-being king of the morlocks aint gonna get it. I get the whole “play to your strengths” thing and theres something to be said for that; but my philosophy is that you go out and conquer those fields that are not your own naturally. Doing so is the single biggest bump a man can get in his game because he went out and got what he truly wanted, not settled for what he could get. For many guys, doing what you and champ suggests is indeed settling…which is utterly unacceptable to me.

    This is why im so good at playing “away games” on blogs other than my own-i easily bore with echo chambers. I NEED that friction, that disagreement, in order to grow, to get better. So, i actually like tougher targets (ive had no less than half a dozen women whose height was no less than 5’10″, all of them advanced degree holders from prestigious schools-including ms brown sugah currently-in ltras averaging 3yrs per). It forces me to up my game.

    Aim high!-go to that club and get the hottie. Your little head will thank you for it…

    O.

  • Underdog

    @Zach

    “I honestly HATE to say this, because I think it’s the worst platitude, but it’s honestly about “being yourself”. As in not to treat the girls with kid gloves, because they’re delicate little snowflakes who might not be able to handle what you have to say. These two “nice guys”, had it been just men at the table, would have been going back and forth with Dave and me all evening, but they didn’t because they were too worried one of the girls might take umbrage at their remarks.”

    That’s more along the line of “don’t give a shit” than “be yourself”. Because if those “nice guys” were raised by society/parents/etc. to treat girls like unique little snowflakes, then they were indeed being themselves around those girls. That’s how I was — completely nice yet completely sexless — and the whole time I was just “being myself”. This is why I’m against the whole “just be yourself” thing, because that shit is confusing as fuck and totally dependent on how that guy’s “self” was conditioned. Your friend needs to completely change his perspectives on women first instead of just “being himself”.

  • Ramble

    Henry louis “skip” gates, a longtime harvard academic, has done an excellent series

    I saw it. I twas OK. He is still a fucking blowhard.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @yrpua:
    Dont hurt em man! You dropping way too much science there!

    :)

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ramble:
    But seriously, why dont you tell us what you really think about skip gates? Lol!

    @yrpua:

    Keep droppin it bro; as i always say:

    Anywhere male and female come together, there too shall you find game…

    O.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Obsidian,

    I’m not at all suggesting that men stay within their comfort zones and settle for the women that they can get that way. What I was suggesting was for men to focusing on improving themselves in areas of life that are personally meaningful for them, and then to focus on women who have similar values and interests. That’s not settling; that’s choosing a mate for the long-term, and based on more meaningful criteria than whether or not she’s a “hottie.”

    Not that there’s anything wrong with hotties or trying to pick them up. I’m all for it. Kudos to you for your successes. I would just say that while you may be honing your seduction skills (and enjoying some meaningless fun in the moment), you’re less likely to find a long-term partner if you’re focusing your efforts on women with radically different values and lifestyles from your own.

    People looking to become skilled seduction artists should follow your advice.

    People looking for meaningful, healthy relationships should follow mine.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @mulechewingbriars:
    Thanks for the assist!-and yet another data point-actually two, since you also mentioned in some detail essence (which is the magazine jill scott is a part of and her anti-ir dating article appeared about two years back; its easily found online)-in my favor, to the sistas’…

    Zero…lol

    I love it. Love it!

    O.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @yareallypua

    I started into “Game” long before most people got interested in it, spent years in it getting progressively more depressed with my life because (although physically attractive) the only women it works on are toxic she-bitches.

    … regardless of whether you see it or not yet, the PUA community at large lets their rationalization hamster spin like crazy to ignore failures and fixate on successes. “Your body language wasn’t Alpha enough, that’s why that didn’t work” is the kind of BS reasoning they make up rather then spend their time observing the woman who rejected you. In bars and clubs about 50% of women are dressed in a fashion that says PFO to men because they’re out to have a good time with their friends, not to get hit on by sleezy guys; about 10% of the women are dressed in a way that screams “If I don’t get picked up tonight I’m worthless and I will have to go home and cut myself”. The girls that game works on are not the women who are dressed in a PFO fashion …

    If you woke up to the truth you would be both far more successful at picking women up by observing the clues that tell you a woman is available, but it will also tell you which women are worth spending time with outside of the bedroom.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @scott:
    The problem w/your advice, is that you obviously missed the part where i specifically said that my relationships w/the women mentioned had an average of THREE YEARS in duration.

    Iow, ALL of them were ltrs. By definition, we would have to have quite a bit in common in order for that to work as long as they did/currently do.

    Ms walsh can tell you, im NOT a minute man; im built for the longhaul.

    I just refuse to rationalize my wonky interests as a way of not getting what i truly want.

    Herb (i think it was him) mentioned djing as a way to meet girls and i readily cosigned his proposition, based on experience as a former turntablist. Simply put, its hard to see how i could have met as many women by playing the flute. No dis to flute players but being a dj nets you more shots on goal.

    And thats my point here-guys, if theyre serious about meeting the women they truly desire, simply have to get out of their ruts-your comic books are of interest only to you. Do that, have fun with it-but realize that its not likely to get you in front of the women who matter.

    To do that, you need to do things that are easily visable and recognizable, and that the gals themselves see as hot. This is why neil “style” strauss-already a hugely successful writer before he ever heard of game-took up stuff like surfing and going to the gym-those are easily seen hobbies/interests that women can easily latch onto-and the rest as they say, is history…

    O.

  • Ted D

    Scot – “I’m not at all suggesting that men stay within their comfort zones and settle for the women that they can get that way. What I was suggesting was for men to focusing on improving themselves in areas of life that are personally meaningful for them, and then to focus on women who have similar values and interests. That’s not settling; that’s choosing a mate for the long-term, and based on more meaningful criteria than whether or not she’s a “hottie.””

    I’ve been trying (and failing miserably it seems) to say the exact same thing here and elsewhere. Why are we concentrating on getting laid so damn much? Yes, I get it, sex is great. I remember being a 20-something and for sure the desire for sex was strong. But at times so was the desire to drink in excess, do drugs, and on occasion to choke the life out of someone because they really pissed me off, yet I managed to avoid these. (Well, to be fair, I didn’t totally “avoid” drinking in excess. But, even when I went overboard with it, I still made sure I was somewhere safe, with some form of controls around to keep things from getting crazy, as in hiding car keys or designating a “key master”, which is a very shitty task I might add…) But all I see for guys is older men telling them how to get laid. Is that really all there is to being a man? My guess is that none of them believe this is so, but the truth is sex is a great motivator, and many guys might not like the idea of ‘self improvement’ nearly as much as ‘sexing up hotties’. And to be honest, I get that. But that still does NOT mean we should be shoving game at these young men. Instead, teach them how to improve themselves, and success with women will follow. (or put another way, we should be doing the job their fathers didn’t) By teaching men game first, they become terrific pick up machines which generally does not make them a better person or citizen for that matter. And yes, I am very interested in raising/creating good citizens. I get that people should put themselves first most of the time, but we all rely on each other in a civil society, and we aren’t doing ourselves any favors unleashing narcissistic, self-absorbed players on the world.

    And you know what? I totally understand why religious institutions place so many restrictions on sexual activity. Because if you don’t, young men will completely ignore everything else to pursue a bang, and women will ignore any desire to settle down while they are young and can get attention from “high end” males that wouldn’t give them a ring to save their own lives. By taking sex out of the equation (mostly by suppression and shaming) religion managed to get young people to focus on things that were important to society instead of getting laid. That being said, back then young people were generally mated to each other pretty early on, which also allowed young adults to put their efforts elsewhere.

    All that was a long winded way of saying: all this unrestricted sexuality is allowing young people to remain immature WAY past the age where they should already be settling down and moving on with a productive life. And, although that may be good for the individual, it isn’t very good for society at large.

  • Kathy

    “Come on, Kathy. Are you really asking why some girl might, just possibly, put a man’s 6’3″ tall stature in the ‘alpha’ column?

    That doesn’t mean that you have to agree with it, but, really?”

    Best be striking Tom Cruise off the Alpha list then, he’s only 5’7″ ;)

  • Ted D

    “ll this unrestricted sexuality is allowing young people to remain immature WAY past the age where they should already be settling down and moving on with a productive life.”

    UGH, that is a bit of chicken and egg. More likely it is the longer “immature” period that enables all of the casual sex going on. Either way, it is all part of the same issue that adolescence is getting longer, which means there are way too many “adults” still acting like children.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “@sassy & ms rwc:
    Well well! Seems i struck a raw nerve here, hmm?”

    No, actually. Everything you’re saying is very typical. I know all I need to know on colorism and dating amongst self-identified black people. With that knowledge, I can look at men, separate the wheat from the chaffe, and go about my day.

    O: “Ms rwc: while your estrangement from your ma dukes is indeed regrettable,”

    It isn’t that bad. We just ave very different outlooks on life, whereas my father and I overlap a lot.

    O: “the fact that she nevertheless came to the same conclusion i did, and we do not know each other speaks volumes to me.”

    You appear to be very exited about this. Well, I’m not one to poop on anyone’s one-man parade.

    O: “i for one have no problem whatsoever with it. Im all for freedom of association.”

    Thanks for your support.

    O: “As for your moms views about black men “after the divorce” im curious-are her views in part, informs yours wrt marriage/ltrs?”

    No. My dad’s views are more influential. He inspires me to take personal responsibility and to hold out for real love, instead of “just marriage.”

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda:
    Obviously you havent read the game, where neil “style” strauss says right there, that game is MOST effective on smart ladies-NOT the clubgoers.

    And my personal experience tallies very well with this. Most of the women ive met were not in the club, and again yrpua makes clear mention of this fact.

    Moreover, and i speak for no one but myself here, i dont need game to know which ladies to step to and which not to step to; thats simple commonsense. Indeed, the mystery methods strength lies in the fact that you dont do much approaching at all; i know i certainly havent.

    I cant speak for either you or yrpua but its my impression that a lot of guys are out there applying what they *think* is game when in truth, they dont have the root fundamentals right; it reminds me of the sad state the nba is in, where there are few players around who truly understand the root fundamentals of the game itself.

    This is why im something of a “purist” when it comes to these matters-my primary sources on game, are “the game” and the mystery method, and then-and only then-do i expand my repitoire from there. I do this for a very important reason-because i want to first be certain that i am in line with wat the founding fathers of seduction have laid down; and second, i want to make sure others know exactly what said founding fathers have said and done. This way, we can spot and address the posers right quick-as yrpua rightly points out in his response to you and others about such things as sh*t tests and field reports. If you go to my blog, you will find that what i write on these matters is fully in line with what yrpua, mystery and style have presented-

    -which in part, explains why ms walsh says what she does about me when it comes to game.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Obviously you havent read the game, where neil “style” strauss says right there, that game is MOST effective on smart ladies-NOT the clubgoers.

      Wait, didn’t Style do all his learning and practicing of Game in clubs? Who were the smart women he interacted with? Courtney Love’s drummer Lisa? IDK much about his personal life since then – does he now clean up with his fellow brainiacs from the New York Times and other august publications?

      Even Roissy talks about how hard it is to run Day Game. Why? Because it’s a whole different population of women. IIRC, Roosh talked about some of his Day Game successes in Iceland – he counted not getting blown out a success. Getting a woman to chat with him about the manners of Icelandics, for example, got reported as a close and “win.”

      Game can work anywhere, on any kind of woman, IMO. But I don’t think Style proved that, and I don’t believe it’s true of PUA.

  • Ramble

    Best be striking Tom Cruise off the Alpha list then, he’s only 5’7? ;)

    Kathy, you are not even trying to be logical. You are only trying to be snarky.

    That is disappointing.

    But you know what, I am feeling generous today, so, I am going to give you another shot.

    So, here’s my question:
    Is it possible that some girl, upon meeting some 6’3″ guy, just might think of his tall stature as being, what we might refer to as, an “alpha” trait?

    You don’t have to say “Yes”, but that is the question.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    I have to apologize; my open remarks were more aimed at ms sassy than you.

    I find your “self-identified” line curious. Please explain?

    Actually, i am always heartened when taboo things like profiling comes shining through. I like reducing things to their simplest parts, recognizing patterns, and going from there. Why? Because thats often-a lot more often than all of us are willing to admit-how real life in the real world works for the vast majority of us most of the time. Im not particularly interested in “snowflakes” because in truth the majority of us are average or just slightly above. This is why we had a bit of an impasse over at vsb last week when, in response to my real life example of just how marriage/ltrs could actually benefit black women, your response about your personal life was off the mark. As a statistical outlier, yes, youre right-what i was saying didnt apply to you. I was instead focusing on the vast majority of black women for whom we have reams of all manner of data that makes clear, that the single life hasnt been anywhere near the feminist nirvana theyve been led to believe. Nor do they make, as a starting salary, what you did.

    Commonsense, to say nothing of logic, would dictate that i focus my efforts on the many, not the few.

    Im sure you would agree?

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ted D
    “By teaching men game first, they become terrific pick up machines which generally does not make them a better person or citizen for that matter.”

    I really enjoyed reading your response. I’ve been salsa dancing in a lot of different venues and cities across the US. The salsa event usually includes a 1-hour lesson for beginners. The quoted reminds me of the typical 1-hour lesson. The basic (123, pause, 567) with the feet, then they launch right into one or two confusing multi-turn patterns so that everyone can instantly become “expert-looking.” Myself and the seasoned female dancers with me know what’s coming when the lesson is over…an onslaught of guys who half-learned a bunch of crazy turn patterns, but have zero rhythm and cannot follow the music.

    They usually get just one dance (out of politeness) and that’s it. You can tell the difference between the guys who learned turn patterns first (they have no rhythm) vs. guys who learned by just making simple steps to a beat they really enjoy, and then learned some turn patterns later. If you’re lucky, you get to dance most of the night with the latter.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    The reason why so many guys are upset at what liza finds most desirable, is easy: because by definition what she wants requires LOTS of work, and LOTS of multitasking, constantly making subtle adjustments and going back and forth between “soft” and “hard” if you will. Simply put, most men cant pull that off-not for long periods of time anyway.

    Go back to the 50 shades discussion-every romance/erotica book is about that-a hard guy who has a soft center that i accessible only to that special lady. Hes vulnerable but not too much, and knows when to “go hard” at just the right times. Im sorry ms walsh, but most men just arent that socially adroit.
    —–
    I seriously do not know what all the uproar is about. This is what has always been frustrating for me when it comes to men from my generation and I felt this same frustration in my early twenties. I might have to start consider seeking out Boomer men, according to Herb (Debbie Downer) men in my age range are not all that interested, anyway.

    What hard work? It is hard being confident and secure (i.e., making sound decisions, not allowing yourself to be controlled by your spouse, asking for what you want in the relationship and getting it. I definitely don’t want to leave out taking charge in the bedroom—very important). What is so hard about all of this?

    Therefore, you cannot be decisive and not allow your woman to disrespect you, ask for what you want and be dominant in the bedroom while being a decent man of good character. That would be hard for most men, really. Many of the men from my father’s generation were this and did not make it all out to be some herculean task–they were real men, so it came naturally to them. The problem I have with Gen-X and Gen-Y men is that most do not know what being a real man actually entails anymore. It’s as if, they are out of touch with their masculinity. The obvious social feminization of men in this country is starting to become an American tragedy (along with the masculinization of American women).

    Obsidian,

    I enjoyed reading the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy for what it was. I thought the male character had some attractive qualities; he was definitely in control, decisive, dominant in the bedroom and of course physically attractive but my issue was that he was not particularly secure or confident within himself most of the time. He appeared to require a lot of reassuring, which in real life would become exhausting for any woman to deal with over time and he was also too controlling and jealous.

  • PeppermintPanda

    Mystery’s mental breakdown caused by “falling for” a toxic she-bitch stripper tends to validate my point …

    If his tactics worked so well on intelligent well adjusted women why wasn’t he successful with doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other accomplished women?

    The reason lies in the fact that poor inner city girls who are failing/dropping out of highschool have a dramatically higher pregnancy rate than middle class suburban college bound girls. It is not because poor inner city males are so “Alpha” it is because these girls lack emotional intelligence and have very poor impulse control.

    Women who are playing the “long game” with their career also tend to play the “long game” with their relationships, and don’t really hook-up with anyone. From my experience these women tend to be the most aware that the guy putting on the biggest show is also the most insecure, and will almost always favour the guy who is confident enough to be himself over the douchebag running game. “I’m going to a movie on friday, do you want to join me?” tends to work 100 times better than any of the tactics used by the PUA community.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Obsidian,

    I did miss the part about your long term relationships.

    I can get with everything you’re saying. I would just add:

    a. If someone’s really passionate about playing woodwinds in jazz ensembles or collecting comic books or fishing or whatever, they should pursue that interest whether or not it’s going to score big points with women.

    b. I agree that men should seek to participate and develop interests that are likely to facilitate meeting women if they indeed want to meet them. However, I would add that they should only pursue those interests if they are genuine.

    For example, I try to stay healthy, but body-building is something I have no interest in. Going to the gym more to pump lots of iron would definitely help me attract more women, but I wouldn’t really enjoy the time I spent there–I’d only be doing it for the women. I think that would be a mistake.

  • Windy

    ”est be striking Tom Cruise off the Alpha list then, he’s only 5’7″

    Tom Cruise is very fit and has a face, nearing his 50′s, much better than most guys in their 20′s.

    Meanwhile, in Ireland, the majority of people enjoy greenery.

    If they didn’t, all of the Irish would move to another Country.

    Dat logic, Kathy ;).

  • Ted D

    Obs – “This is why im something of a “purist” when it comes to these matters-my primary sources on game, are “the game” and the mystery method, and then-and only then-do i expand my repitoire from there.”

    If you don’t mind a bit of a derailment I’d like to ask: why is this important to you? If the goal is to simply find women to have great relationships with, what difference does it make exactly how you go about it? Unless of course you are actively trying to study it. But then, if that is the case, to me your goal isn’t finding and being with a great women, but learning how to do it over, and over, and over again.

    This is part of my issue with game. Surely many men have proven that it works, and not only for picking up bar dwellers. But, it can’t possibly be the only way, and for some guys I just don’t think it is the best way. So, why is there SO MUCH investment for some PUA/’sphere bloggers to prove beyond all doubt that “game” works on all women? Why insist that ANY man that learns game will be successful. To me, it looks an awful lot like any other cult where the end goal is to make everyone think like the leader, not necessarily to improve other people’s lives at all.

  • Iggles

    @ Obsidian:

    I know it chaps your hide to hear it but kanye west is indeed an intelligent man; you just dont happen to dig hip hop is all. Too bad for you.

    Those are both opinions, and it sounds like you’re conflating the two (i.e., Mierelle doesn’t think Kanye is smart because she doesn’t like hip hop). That’s not what she’s saying but it’s a nice way to try to shut her down.

    Personally, I find it annoying when like or dislike of hip hop is treated as a measure of a person’s blackness. It’s a musical genre folks! My grandma doesn’t like hip hop either and it doesn’t make her any less black or her opinion of Kanye any less valid! (A whole lot of people thought he was dumb for the Taylor Swift debacle at the VMAs..)

    If im so very out to lunch it seems very odd that you would come all the way to france to give me a piece of your mind;

    Dude, it’s the internet. People from all around the world can post here…

    i think the real reason why youre hear is the same as ms sassys kneejerk id-monster fueled rant-because what ive said hit a raw vein of truth and it hurts.

    Or maybe she just disagrees with you.

    It doesn’t mean that your arguments are “right” because someone engages you in debate.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “Please review my whole comment and do not take out of context what i have said; i have posited that the benefits of being with a high status man could offset any potential downsides when it came to bw/wm pairings-clearly, the sistas involved gained socially etc from the union. What is also known from what we can tell, is that the white men in such unions do indeed take a hit in their social standing and status. ”
    ———

    I omitted your name from my comment because I was going off on a tangent, I’m sorry for not stating it better.
    Yes, bw/wm relationships are the rarest which is why I’m surprised that apparently- they’re the most solid. I’m sure we can learn a thing or 2 for why that’s so.

    Re: lack of blk male bloggers
    If men have the choice between buying a book that teaches them how to get more sex vs. a book about relationships, which one would most men buy?
    Relationship books (and I suppose blogs) aren’t marketed to men because generally they don’t sell well. Could that be a possible answer to your question?

    Re: banks
    Are you saying that what bothers you is that instead of advising black women to be open to men of other races, the author uses it as an opportunity to knock down black men?

    Re: white men
    I don’t know about higher SMVs, but..
    Since men have higher MMVs than women, white men in aggregate generally have the highest MMV because they have the most resources, power, and status. Therefore, they can demand more.
    So, higher MMV men (white and other races) are going to want women who possess the qualities that are discussed here so often; slim, feminine, good demeaner, etc.. If the women lack those, then the men will decline, especially if they’re going to marry outside their race.
    I’m sure there’s more to it than this, but this sums up my observation.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ted:
    With all due respect good sir-and i mean it-you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

    Game, as a first principle, has the mission of personal responsibility, agency and self-improvement as paramount. There IS no game in fact, WITHOUT personal growth and self improvement. I must ask with all due respect-where are you getting your game information from? Cite sources please?

    Moreover-the reason why game focuses so much on sex is simple; because this is what men most desire. Be it short term, or long term. And guess what ted?

    There. Is. Nothing. In. The. Least. Wrong. With. That.

    So long as a gamesman is honest and upfront, he is committing no crime in wanting sex as a first principle in a relationship; even ms walsh has acknowledged this fact.

    In addition: its my view that in our time where hooking up is indeed the norm for us all insofar as romantic courtship takes place, that if a man cant get a woman to say “yes!” to a night with him, how is he going to get her to say “yes!” to a lifetime with him? How does that even work? What does that look like-in 2012?

    Please explain? Im sure you have the fellas rapt attention…

    Lastly…

    There is the no notion that it is somehow wrong, to do calculated things in the context of a romantic situation to achieve a particular result-yet we’re completely cool with such calculations in other, in my view, less important areas of life. How many of you (i dont include myself here, as ive always refused to do such things no matter what the personal cost-and believe you me, i have paid them in spades) have worn clothes you didnt want to for your job; laughed at your boss’ cornya**ed jokes; said things at your job interview that were wholly untrue (the documented amount of lying on job apps and the like are ridiculously high!), or did the same with “friends” and the like? Indeed, people have done all kinds of stuff they loathe, for the sake of the job and/or school…

    …but when it comes to their love lives, all of a sudden theyre so very pious. Bunk! There is nothing wrong in changing yourself to meet the demands of the smp-nor is there anything wrong in doing things your mate may like but you dont. You do it because thats what it takes to either get a mate and/or keep them-just like you do in any other area of life. To even entertain anything otherwise, is to flirt with insanity.

    Please do your homework on game before you deign to speak on it again ted? You are not acquitting yourself well here.

    Im just sayin.

    O.

  • Ramble

    Many of the men from my father’s generation were this and did not make it all out to be some herculean task–they were real men, so it came naturally to them. The problem I have with Gen-X and Gen-Y men is that most do not know what being a real man actually entails anymore.

    I wonder what could have changed between your fathers generation and the men you meet? This is a real head-scratcher.

    But, you are right, men are stupid. If only they would get in line with what their parents, popular culture and polite society had told them…oh, wait.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “I find your “self-identified” line curious. Please explain?”

    There’s more to being black than just phenotype. Phenotype is one (which is a primary contributor, no doubt). Self-association (self acknowledged participation in AA culture) is another. That one is very nuanced, given the many subgroups within the black community, but influential none-the-less. I have come across many phenotypically black men who consistently stay in the outlier zone re: identity. They seem to maintain a black identity only because others insist they are black. Anyhow, I find colorism to be much more common amongst strongly black-self-identifying men. The others have dating preferences that are more a consequence of the pool of local available attractive women and do not follow a particular skin tone line. I guess that’s why I’m one of the rare people who would not be shocked if let’s say, Tiger Woods, had a relationship with a dark skinned woman.

    O: “Im not particularly interested in “snowflakes” because in truth the majority of us are average or just slightly above.”

    Thanks for your explanation. I’ll keep your stance in mind when interpreting your future posts.

  • Underdog

    Ted D, I have never met a PUA where “game” and “getting laid” was 100% of his life. Even in college, all the PUAs I ran into were intelligent, ambitious, career oriented kids who simply wanted to learn how to improve their love lives. I think your impression of PUAs as womanizing slackers who focus 100% of their lives to fucking women after women comes from your lack of a realistic perception. Even famous PUAs like Mystery and Style had established careers doing what they loved before focusing on “game”. To tell these men who have their lives handled but are simply bad with women to stop focusing on women and find happiness elsewhere is very condescending.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Ted,

    But all I see for guys is older men telling them how to get laid. Is that really all there is to being a man? My guess is that none of them believe this is so, but the truth is sex is a great motivator, and many guys might not like the idea of ‘self improvement’ nearly as much as ‘sexing up hotties’.

    Yea, well we live in a society that values quick-fixes, instant gratification, and image over substance, so it’s no surprise that that message is heard above all others. It’s nice to think that you can follow a formula and make all your dreams come true. Hence the popularity of game… and The Secret, unfortunately.

    Not that I’m anti-game, btw. I just see it as a piece of a much larger whole in terms of manhood or masculinity.

  • Ted D

    Liza – “What hard work? It is hard being confident and secure (i.e., making sound decisions, not allowing yourself to be controlled by your spouse, asking for what you want in the relationship and getting it. I definitely don’t want to leave out taking charge in the bedroom—very important). What is so hard about all of this?”

    Actually, from my own personal experience this has been one of the most difficult things in my life, and I don’t mean in my 20’s… Many men have simply been brainwashed into supplicating to women in general, NOT just in the office as many women would like to imagine. It’s damn hard to send a man to “diversity/sensitivity” training at work, and not have that bleed over into personal life. Plus, those stupid work classes are at least up front and honest about their objectives: to castrate the masculinity out of men in the office. The more devious “training” comes when a boy is still very young, and continues on through college and into corporate life. And yet, here you and many other women are asking: So why is it so hard for you guys to just man up? I was told my entire life that “manning up” was exactly what NOT to do.

    “”Many of the men from my father’s generation were this and did not make it all out to be some herculean task–they were real men, so it came naturally to them. The problem I have with Gen-X and Gen-Y men is that most do not know what being a real man actually entails anymore. It’s as if, they are out of touch with their masculinity.”

    I was born to a 20 year old single women in 1970. I didn’t meet my “sperm donor” until I was 21 years old, and that was only because my half sister invited me to her wedding. I lived with my mother and grandparents, and my grandfather was indeed a male role model to follow. But, my mother and grandmother made sure to point out all his “bad behavior” to show me what NOT to do, and looking back I now realize most of it was my grandfather simply being a “real” man. When I was in my mid 20’s, I was visiting and my grandfather and I were sitting outside drinking a beer. Out of the blue he looked at me and said: “You know for a long time I was worried you would grow up to be a complete pussy the way your mother and grandmother coddled you.” So I asked why he didn’t get involved. He said: “well, you weren’t MY son, and I didn’t feel like it was my place to get involved. Besides, I had your mother and grandmother to contend with when it came to your raising.” My grandfather had three daughters and no sons, so I imagine it was probably VERY troublesome to him. And in his defense, HE is the reason I wasn’t given up for adoption at my birth. When he found out my mother was intending to do so, he told her that he would not allow his flesh and blood to wander out in the world, and instead would adopt me as his own. Instead she chose to keep me and live with them for help. To this day, I feel bad that I spent so many years of my life thinking my grandfather wasn’t a “nice” guy. To be sure he wasn’t, but at least he was a man.

    My point here being that it isn’t so much men are neglecting their duties to raise men, but most simply do not have the opportunity because they are either ejected from the family, or they are beaten into submission by women. That was then, and now it is much worse. Once a single generation of men came up in this environment, it became a snowball rolling down a mountain as more young men simply accepted that this is how it is.

    I tend to agree with a good bit of what you post, but in this respect you really do NOT have a grasp of how things look on this side of the fence. If you have to ask “how hard is it?”, then you really don’t understand at all.

    PPanda – “The reason lies in the fact that poor inner city girls who are failing/dropping out of highschool have a dramatically higher pregnancy rate than middle class suburban college bound girls. It is not because poor inner city males are so “Alpha” it is because these girls lack emotional intelligence and have very poor impulse control.”

    I’m seeing this on a daily basis around my community. There are plenty of thugs and wanna-be’s, but not much in terms of real alphaness that I can see. (By that I mean the benevolent kind of Alpha IE John Wayne types.) I would put more weight on poor impulse control that low EI, but they do go hand in hand often.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    wonder what could have changed between your fathers generation and the men you meet? This is a real head-scratcher.

    But, you are right, men are stupid. If only they would get in line with what their parents, popular culture and polite society had told them…oh, wait.


    It is not all about popular culture B.S. but mostly about being in tune with your natural male instincts.

  • Alias

    Re: height
    Height like good looks give men an advantage for attracting. So, if a man lacks those then he’s going to have to compensate, but it’s not impossible (since many men overcome that obstacle). I thought that would be pretty straightforward.

    The need for women to have her partner be superior in some way, such as height, IMO, isn’t directly related to a need for having to feel protected but has more to do with the tendency of women mothering people who are their “inferiors.” The moment a woman has to mother (as opposed to nurture) her partner, it’s inevitable that things will go downhill. So, if a man can prevent that, both parties will be happier.
    To what degree a woman needs the man to be superior to her will vary but he must *at minimum* be her equal. Just my 2 cents.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Ted D,

    I would actually say that you and I are probably on a similar page …

    It is my opinion that game is (mostly) a crutch that guys use to cover up their insecurities; and it works well enough at covering insecurities for men to be highly successful with women of questionable quality.

    For many guys who find their confidence they depend on the tactics of game less and less never (really) see the problems with game, and think that women are responding to them based on game rather than their self confidence and self respect.

  • Ted D

    Scot – “Not that I’m anti-game, btw. I just see it as a piece of a much larger whole in terms of manhood or masculinity.”

    Agreed. I think there is just far too much focus on what it takes to get laid, and not nearly enough on what it takes to be a good person and citizen in the ‘sphere.

    Obsidian – Although you post had lots of content, you really didn’t answer my question. And I’ve never once claimed to know much about “game” as proposed by those of which we do not speak on HUS, but what I see is mostly posts about game parlor tricks and ways to “close the deal”. I’m sure if I dig in, I can find all kinds of interesting things about self improvement, but guess what, new guys finding the ‘sphere aren’t seeing any of that up front. Instead they simply see the quick/easy method of getting laid, and off they go.

    I’ve said before, to me it is a lot like handing a loaded gun to a child and telling them to have fun. Before anyone even picks up a firearm, they should be taught about proper use of it, how to secure it, and how to respect its power. Before we send young guys out with the knowledge to “game” women into bed, I believe we should teach them how to responsibly do so. But, unlike you, I don’t see much importance placed on the integrity part on most ‘sphere blogs. In fact, there tends to be a current of “those women will get what they deserve” and “don’t worry about how women feel about it”. I’m not saying men should base their behavior on what women feel (we’ve been doing that for 40 years or so and it isn’t working) but that there needs to be at least some minimum level of respect for humanity (and acknowledged that indeed women ARE human) before teaching people how to manipulate others.)

    I have no desire to spread “game” knowledge as presented by some of the more known authors in the ‘sphere. However there is plenty of good knowledge there, and plenty of other applications for that knowledge. I’m proposing the focus should be moved from getting laid (which to me is STILL focusing too much on women) and instead focused on how it can be used to create better men in general. But I understand that personal responsibility isn’t popular these days, so I suppose I’m expecting far too much.

    As a side note, congrats on the gig at the GMP. I might just have to start reading it again. I left because it was turning into the Good Mangina Project for a bit there.

  • Wonder

    Ted D June 5, 2012 at 12:08 pm,

    If Game is wrong because it can influence women to have sex with the men who use game; make it illegal for women to buy shampoo, thongs, G-strings, Lingerie, push-up bras, skin-tight clothes, cleavage sweaters, long hair, Make-up, Brazilian waxing, the sexual act of oral sex, anal sex, and handjobs.

    You know, you also have to teach to women that men must be treated with a minimum of humanity. Impossible to have it happen if women choose to manipulate men, sexually.

    Oh wait..

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Yes, by all means, please do.

    And while youre taking notes please add this: that the whole of my approach to game, to life itself, is that regular guys can enjoy a bit of what this world/life has to offer, by doing some very simple things to help themselves achieve. You dont have to have leading man looks, “prestige” or lots of money to do it-but you do have to be just a weebit smarter than the average bear. Any man can do what it is that i talk about be it here, vsb or my blog or anywhere else. My particular take on game, for example, rests on simpliciy, economy and commonsense. Like i said, any man can do it.

    My personal example bears this out: i was born of humble beginnings and of the working classes of philly. But through hard work, a bit of luck here and there, and using my head for something more than a hatrack i was able to enjoy a few nice things-of which women play a big role. I am saying, especially, but not solely limited to my brothas: you can do it too.

    But it DOES take work. It is not easy at least in the early going. You will have setbacks. But you can succeed.

    I think black people now have all they need to solve the many problems that plague them; what they lack though, is will.

    That, ive found, accounts for more than anything else, as to why some men are winners, while others are losers.

    Got all that? ;)

    O.

  • Alias

    Kathy:
    “My husband has always been an honest straight up front kind of guy. Not cocky. Not sleazy. Not a smart arse. Never put me down..
    Strong confident and won’t put up with shit.”
    ———

    Keep in mind, that what some men define as *a-hole* is what others define as self-respect. That some will call playful flirting/teasing or even patting their own wife’s butt as -being a jerk- because of how they were raised or what they deduced is appropriate behavior.
    So for a “nice guy” – “won’t put up with shit” might fall into that definition.
    Your definition might differ.

  • Ramble

    It is not all about popular culture B.S. but mostly about being in tune with your natural male instincts.

    Until every teacher, after school special, parent (even our fair Susan encouraged her son to be beta), university policy, etc. encourages young men to NOT follow their instincts.

    Hell, right now, there is very serious discussion being done about banning football outright.

    Liza, you are disappointed with the Nancy-boys that you meet. I feel for you. Really, I do (is there a “I am being serious and completely un-sarcastic emoticon?). So, you want to blame them…the nancy boys. Again, I can understand.

    However, you also put forth many an argument against “Game” (i.e. teaching young men how to be more charismatic). This is where, I believe, one person said you were a troll. Again, I don’t think you are a troll, but I believe that was the line of thinking.

    Unless you are genuinely interested in destroying the PC culture and, in my opinion, encouraging young men to be more charismatic (or learn to be more charismatic [i.e. "game"]), I am not sure what to say to you.

    Still, regardless of our wants, I believe the culture change is going to happen.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    It’s damn hard to send a man to “diversity/sensitivity” training at work, and not have that bleed over into personal life. Plus, those stupid work classes are at least up front and honest about their objectives: to castrate the masculinity out of men in the office. The more devious “training” comes when a boy is still very young, and continues on through college and into corporate life. And yet, here you and many other women are asking: So why is it so hard for you guys to just man up? I was told my entire life that “manning up” was exactly what NOT to do.
    —-

    Ted,

    Yes, I agree. I work in Corporate America so I see how men in the workplace have been beaten down and castrated by office politics. I am well aware of what has been the cause of the feminization of American men–very well aware. But now that many have swallowed the red pill there should be no excuses. Don’t you think?

    Ted, also I am very familiar with your plight. The culture I come from is plagued with single motherhood and absentee fathers and father figures. The men may appear to be very manly and testosterone filled on the outside but it is just a veneer because when pull back the curtain they are not real men. You cannot fake the funk for long.

    I also agree with most of what you post. I know we cannot help how we were raised and socialized but one of the beauties of adulthood is that you are free to become whomever the f**k you want.

  • Escoffier

    There is no necessary corellation between height and alphatude. I am 6’4″ and totally beta.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is no necessary corellation between height and alphatude. I am 6’4″ and totally beta.

      For the record, Peter Dinklage as Tyrion in Game of Thrones is one of the most alpha guys ever. Very tingle worthy. He’s 4’5″. His wife is 5’6″.

      pd

  • Ted D

    Underdog – “Ted D, I have never met a PUA where “game” and “getting laid” was 100% of his life. Even in college, all the PUAs I ran into were intelligent, ambitious, career oriented kids who simply wanted to learn how to improve their love lives. ”

    Admittedly my experiences with “real” PUA guys is very limited, and those were very much the parlor trick types. I’ve yet to meet a man that is a professed PUA that puts much focus on anything other than getting laid, which to me is a very piss poor purpose in life. Now it is possible that I’ve met and interacted with guys that follow game but put their efforts elsewhere, but if that is the case the subject never came up and I was none the wiser. If so, then perhaps things aren’t so bad, but my concern really is that just putting all this info out there without some kind of controls in place is irresponsible at best, and bad for society at worst. I have a son, and I certainly want a better world for men that he can enjoy, but not at the cost of integrity and honor. Modern society plays those down, and many people feel they have no place in today’s world, which to me is all the more reason to double down and put focus there.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ ms alias:
    What you said was straightforward indeed; the problem though, is that women refuse to admit that they can be every bit as “shallow” and “superficial” and “objectifying” as any man-that was the whole point of my article at the good men project. And, as i predicted, the ladies refused to “man up”. Lol!

    I think i speak for all the guys here when i say that none of us have any problem with what a woman chooses or doesnt choose in a man; i think we all have massive problems when women try to weasel out of being called on the carpet for it. Its just a simple matter of principle for me. Which, to be frank, i dont see a heck of a lot of evidence that women, on a whole, care all that much about…

    O.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Unless you are genuinely interested in destroying the PC culture and, in my opinion, encouraging young men to be more charismatic (or learn to be more charismatic [i.e. "game"]), I am not sure what to say to you.

    Ramble,

    My issue with Game is the dark side of it. I have seen very insecure men who have learned Game and the havoc they can wreak on a woman’s psyche. If Game is being used as a tool to make decent guys more confident and charismatic, then fine.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “Unless you are genuinely interested in destroying the PC culture and, in my opinion, encouraging young men to be more charismatic (or learn to be more charismatic [i.e. "game"]), I am not sure what to say to you.”

    But this is where I part ways with you here. To me being charismatic is NOT the same as learning “game”. In the first case, you are teaching a young man how to be socially adept. In the latter, you are teaching a young man how to get laid. Yes, they have overlap, but it is the purpose of the teaching that differs. I’m interested in helping men be better in general, not better at getting laid in particular. If they become better men, they will get laid. But, they won’t be racking up triple digit numbers, which to me would actually help the SMP problems a bit. Surely there is plenty of room for guys to use the system to get high notch counts, but I really just don’t see that as a useful goal to propagate.

    Liza – “But now that many have swallowed the red pill there should be no excuses. Don’t you think?”

    I’ve known about the red pill for a little over a year now, and I’m still choking on that bitch. You paint a picture where once a person knows the truth, the rest should just fall into place. My INTJness agrees, but where the problem comes in is deprogramming the incorrect assumptions and behaviors and rewriting everything. I spent over 35 years believing something that wasn’t true, and built an entire life of behaviors around it. And you simply state “now that you know the real deal just change.” I really wish it was that easy.

  • Escoffier

    “I have seen very insecure men who have learned Game and the havoc they can wreak on a woman’s psyche.”

    Hard to know exactly what you mean, but however this is formulated, it seems to me that women cannot escape responsibility for 50% of the blame. At least.

  • Ted D

    Obsidian – ” Its just a simple matter of principle for me.Which, to be frank, i dont see a heck of a lot of evidence that women, on a whole, care all that much about…”

    And I could say the same thing about many ‘sphere writers as well…

  • Ramble

    Keep in mind, that what some men define as *a-hole* is what others define as self-respect. That some will call playful flirting/teasing or even patting their own wife’s butt as -being a jerk- because of how they were raised or what they deduced is appropriate behavior.
    So for a “nice guy” – “won’t put up with shit” might fall into that definition.
    Your definition might differ.

    Alias, that is absolutely right. And it is an addendum to what Zach and Jason had been saying the other day.

    Basically, we have many different definitions for what constitutes “Asshole” and “Alpha” and those varying definitions will play a major part in how “differ” on this issue. I put “differ” in quotes because often enough, our arguments will simply be semantics.

  • also intj

    Alexander Hamilton is such a fine way to go off-topic. Here is Lin-Manuel Miranda’s “The Hamilton Mixtape.”

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/video/lin-manuel-miranda-performs-white-house-poetry-jam-8-8

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “Hard to know exactly what you mean, but however this is formulated, it seems to me that women cannot escape responsibility for 50% of the blame. At least.”

    To a point yes. If I gave an 11 year old boy a loaded gun and pointed him toward a shopping mall, would the shoppers there be at fault if they got shot? If you send a guy to a club with “game” knowledge, and he P&D’s a woman, surely some of the blame falls on her. After all, unless he raped her she agreed on some level. But, did she agree to have sex with a PUA, or what the PUA made himself out to look like? To be sure, any woman that falls for such a thing is at fault, but only for being naive and not knowing any better.

    Of course if the PUA is completely honest and up front, then there is no blame to be shared. I just don’t know how often full honestly is used when “gaming” a woman, and I’m pretty damn sure that at LEAST obfuscation of the truth is employed often.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ted:
    My response to ms royale with cheese speaks in part to your question(s) to me but i want to add a bit if i may:

    I like game because i like the idea of men helping men where it actually matters. Oh the vast majority of guys in lairs worldwide arent looking to be mack daddys; theyre looking for a girlfriend. The seduction community is the closest thing we actually have to an actual, functioning, mens movement-in part, because it hits guys where they live. Sure, all the issues more traditional mras talk about are important and fwiw, im on board w/most if not all of em-roe for men, mandatory paternity testing, shared custody of kids, reforms in family and divorce law, making domestic violence truly equal, and so on-but lets face it, the mra movement, if one can call it that, really leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of that is, in my view, due to the very bitter attitudes that are found in mra spaces; which tends to feed on itself and attracts others. My time among puas was completely opposite-in fact the one time a guy tried to bring negativity he was swiftly booted out of the venue where a speaker was brought in to discuss the finer points of day game and most importantly, inner game. They were there to help each other.

    Let me say this also: as a brotha, ive NEVER seen that kind of comraderie among black men. Never. In black america, “the game is to be sold, not told”-its every man for himself, literally. Which, i think, explains part of what we see there. The seduction community greatly inspired me-and thats why i care so deeply about it.

    Hope that answers your question-and by all means checkout my blog, especially the archives! I think youll enjoy it.

    O.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    I seriously do not know what all the uproar is about. This is what has always been frustrating for me when it comes to men from my generation and I felt this same frustration in my early twenties. I might have to start consider seeking out Boomer men, according to Herb (Debbie Downer) men in my age range are not all that interested, anyway.

    Men are rarely interested in doing things they know will lead to being punished.

    Also, I pointed you to a place to meet men who met your criteria and even posted my email if you wanted details. No response.

    So you want these platonic ideals of Dominant but loving men to just show up and pick you without effort on your part (did you ever approach gym guy even).

    What hard work? It is hard being confident and secure (i.e., making sound decisions,

    Have you tried making sound decisions? It’s work. There is a reason confidence comes from success at hard things: because you did the work and know you could. It took a lot of sound decisions to get to where I am not and some of the hardest were to do the work when I had a choice not to do it.

    You want the kind of man who has worked hard to get all those things you want. What have you done that took hard work that you can offer him? Note, I’m not saying you don’t have anything, but beyond staying in shape I haven’t read it in your comments here.

    I enjoyed reading the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy for what it was. I thought the male character had some attractive qualities; he was definitely in control, decisive, dominant in the bedroom and of course physically attractive

    Again, woman, get thee to a munch :)

    The problem I have with Gen-X and Gen-Y men is that most do not know what being a real man actually entails anymore.

    At best no one taught them masculinity. At worst they were taught the opposite. Despite what you and other women thing the very specific kind of “real man” you want isn’t biologically ingrained but a very specific social expression. As has been said more than once in this thread, natural manliness is best observed in multi-generational poverty neighboorhoods (not just black ones either).

    It is not all about popular culture B.S. but mostly about being in tune with your natural male instincts.

    You don’t want me acting on my natural male instincts or most other men I’ve been around. The world would be a much less pleasant place.

  • Zach

    @Ted D

    This is not a defense of PUAs, and I think a lot of them are still insecure little boys hiding behind a veneer of confidence. What I will say is I know a lot of guys who are very good at picking up women (not because they studied game, but because they’re just good at it), who are also very, very successful in their careers. They are bankers, lawyers, soon-to-be-doctors, consultants, techies, etc who kill it at their jobs. Working 60 hours a week or more still leaves the hours after 7 or 8 every night to pickup and meet women, and all weekend. The two are not mutually exclusive.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Hard to know exactly what you mean, but however this is formulated, it seems to me that women cannot escape responsibility for 50% of the blame. At least.

    ——
    I have said time and time again that feminism has been very responsible for the feminization of American men. Hell, yes, women are partially responsible.

    “I’ve known about the red pill for a little over a year now, and I’m still choking on that bitch.”

    Ted, just swallow the damn pill already. :)

  • Ramble

    But now that many have swallowed the red pill there should be no excuses. Don’t you think?

    Liza, come on. Really?

    So, some guy here starts acting all Mad Men at the office, gets fired, and you are asking a question like that?

    My issue with Game is the dark side of it.

    But, Liza, this is like saying you are against knives because they can be used to hurt and kill, and not just slice up country ham.

    It is a set of tools, knowledge, skills, etc. that can help men be more charismatic. He can be a charismatic husband or a charismatic sociopathic, forced death-march tyrant.

    So, are you against knives or are you against violence?

    Are you against charisma or are you against tyrants?

  • Ramble

    There is no necessary corellation between height and alphatude. I am 6’4? and totally beta.

    But you can understand why some girl might be immediately attracted to your tall stature, right?

    How, it is possible, that she just might see your height as being slightly more “alpha” than some 5’4″ guy, right?

  • Escoffier

    Ted, I do not see the gun analogy at all. For one thing, no one is getting shot. For another, when someone gets shot by a stray bullet, by definition the injured party was not a willing participant in the transaction.

    Game only works to the extent that women let it. It works on some women because it stimulates their attraction triggers. Sure, they often have regrets after. But the solution to that used to be to insist that they be very careful with their emotions and that they reserve sexual favors for marriage. Saying the latter in 2012 is like saying you believe in geocentric universe. It’s considered risible. Yet somehow many of us seem to believe that women can be careful with their emotions but free with their favors.

    Also, game is pretty clearly a reactionary element in the precise sense. It arose in response to a change in the market. Women by and large stopped responding to what men used to offer and a large portion of them started to respond to game. So the men who could, learned and used game. If there were no demand for game, there would be no game.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    Yes, I agree. I work in Corporate America so I see how men in the workplace have been beaten down and castrated by office politics. I am well aware of what has been the cause of the feminization of American men–very well aware. But now that many have swallowed the red pill there should be no excuses. Don’t you think?

    No, because swallowing the red pill doesn’t change the fact that being the kind of man you want openly on a regular basis is like running straight into machine gun fire.

    We aren’t teaching women to be the kind of wives real men want either. Why go under fire to get a SitC woman or a Girls girl?

    That’s why GTOW is so popular with red pill men. They know they’re not wanted so they’ll go do their own thing.

  • Wonder

    ”I also agree with most of what you post. I know we cannot help how we were raised and socialized but one of the beauties of adulthood is that you are free to become whomever the f**k you want.”

    Then why are you trying to shame men into pursuing you or your girlfriends? Your posts make no sense at all.

  • Ramble

    Yes, they have overlap, but it is the purpose of the teaching that differs.

    Who says? Who taught me specifically about getting laid?

    You are making assumptions.

    Do some guys teach charisma specifically to get you more blowjobs? Sure.

    Do some guys teach charisma to help a guy be less of a chump? You better fucking believe it.

    Where the fuck is Dogsquat?

  • Escoffier

    No, Liza, the flipside to that is more important. See my reply to Ted, above.

    Ramble, I guess I can see it in the abstract although I don’t think it has ever worked in my specific case. Also, I went to grad school with a guy 2″ taller and much buffer than me. Even more beta. A true gentle giant. Most of the players I’ve known have been cocky little dudes.

  • Tom

    “I am not an unusual woman. I would describe myself as having a high sex drive (sorry for the TMI). I can tell you that never once in my life have I felt the slightest tingle for dominant, callous, insensitive, asshole, cocky behavior. Not. One. Time. I know many other women like me. Please don’t tell me what I like, or that I don’t know what I like.”

    YES! YES! YES!

    Same here, Susan!

    But if you point this out on any manosphere blog you will be howled down , and derided..
    ______________________
    Could be a super slut just wants a cocky guy because all she wants is to get laid.The “nice” guy may not be as goos in bed according to the sterio type. She justs wants a guy who knows what he wants “tonight” which is probably what she wants…..sex..In this case nice guys do finish last.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Well well! Seems i struck a raw nerve here, hmm?

    Lets really lance the boil, shall we?

    Sassy-you are talking about anecdote; i am presenting documented fact. Perhaps you may not be aware of it but jill scott, in her role as a member of the essence magazine staff, had gone on record registering her disdain for brothbas dating/marrying out.

    Fun question for you: please name me the black male equivalent to jill scott, who took to the media in kind? Ill wait. :)

    You can attack me all you like-more, please!-because when you do, all youll be proving is just how right i am after all. If what you say is indeed true about all these brothas who feel some kind of way about sistas like you dating white guys, it should be very easy for you to present easily verifiable proof-no, taking your word for it is not enough. In addition to jill scott, i can also mention terry mcmillan (waiting to exhale), the film “save the last dance”, the major flak tiger woods, kobe bryant and oj simpson got for their romantic/sexual choices from sistas…the list goes on. Lets see what you can come up with that supports your argument.

    If you cant you would be doing us all a favor by sticking to the theatre; straightahead debate doesnt suit you. ;)

    Dude, seriously, calm down.

    If you think that you’ve struck a nerve with me, you are very wrong. This is how I talk to almost everyone on here. I’m frank and very blunt. It comes off as being cold sometimes. You aren’t familiar with the way I write on here because I’ve never bothered talking to you before.

    Also, I have never said that there aren’t some black women who do bemoan black men dating white women. I never once said that. What I do have a problem with is that you claim this grief over interracial dating lies solely with black women. You claim that no black men have a problem with black women dating white men. That couldn’t be further from the truth. There are indeed black men who are bothered when black women date white men. You used anecdotes of Jill Scott and other public icons/celebrities, yet you decry mine, which I find rather laughable.

    As someone else said, you didn’t strike a nerve with me. I just disagree with you.

    Also, here’s some examples of black men having grief over black women dating white men:

    http://community.allhiphop.com/discussion/464554/does-seeing-a-beautiful-black-woman-with-a-white-man-bother-you

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsR6yA-XEpY

    http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1087507

    http://www.dawnali.com/lovinmysistas/index.php?topic=6238.0

    http://nwso.net/2011/09/25/black-men-hate-interracial-dating/

    Hey Obsidian’s anecdotes and examples, meet Sassy’s anecdotes and examples.

    Check and mate.

    As far as whether or not I think black women don’t like intelligent black men, I can’t say. That’s not something I know anything about, considering that I don’t date black men. I don’t try to make blanket statements about things I don’t know about or haven’t had experience with, hence why I said you would have a better chance of talking about it. It seems like something you have lived/experienced. Kudos to you.

    I do have authority, however, to speak about black men bemoaning black women dating white men because I have lived/experienced that.

  • Tom

    I really do not think most women want to be hooked up with an ahole in a relationship. The manosphere is wrong about that…for hooking up, maybe. its like most guys and sluts.. they dont want them for relationships, but for a one nighter, they are ideal… Same with some sluts and aholes.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, I guess I can see it in the abstract although I don’t think it has ever worked in my specific case.

    And there are quite a few guys who are very good looking who are also very “beta”.

    The height, nor the looks, nor the wealth, will make you “alpha”. But, you can understand why some girl might have an immediate attraction to it (or, at least, she will NOT immediately be turned off by your small stature).

    Most of the players I’ve known have been cocky little dudes.

    I hear you, though, it does not invalidate my point.

  • Escoffier

    I think I radiate “beta” because my height has never done anything for me. Well, it helps me see over crowds …

  • Herb

    @Escoffier

    I think I radiate “beta” because my height has never done anything for me. Well, it helps me see over crowds …

    I hear you. I’m sure I’m a strong point source of beta. I probably set off beta detectors in the next building.

    Hmmm, thinking of alpha and beta as radiation is interesting. Of the four kinds of radiation alpha is the most dangerous if alpha emitters are ingested.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    You don’t want me acting on my natural male instincts or most other men I’ve been around. The world would be a much less pleasant place.

    Herb,

    Are you starting to build a strawman? So, men cannot be in tune with their male instincts and be civilized at the same time.

    “So you want these platonic ideals of Dominant but loving men to just show up and pick you without effort on your part (did you ever approach gym guy even).”

    I saw him yesterday and it has been a while so I figured I scared him away by evasive and all. However, I did not approach I could not some Cougar was all up in his face and trailing him all over the gym. He did not appear to be interested but just being polite while she engaged in small talk (clearly hitting on him). I probably should have stepped in but we make more eye contact while she was chatting him up–that was it. Baby steps, okay.

    “Also, I pointed you to a place to meet men who met your criteria and even posted my email if you wanted details. No response.”

    Okay, I think I will take you up on that.

    “You want the kind of man who has worked hard to get all those things you want. What have you done that took hard work that you can offer him? Note, I’m not saying you don’t have anything, but beyond staying in shape I haven’t read it in your comments here.”

    It is hard work for a woman to be feminine and pleasant to be around. Men act as if they do not have a list of criteria’s they are looking for in a woman. Oh, I see, women should not have any–the nerves.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms alias:
    In response to a number of points/questions you raised/asked:

    I think its too early to tell precisely why bw/wm couples stay together as long as they do; for one thing theyre a rather small cohort with not much in the way of growth over the past two decades; and for another, there could very well be reasons other than the ones championed by the “swirlers”-one of them informed by evopsych-that women can and will put up with a lot from a man provided hes high status enough. Could it be possible, that at least some of these presumptive happy “swirl” couples, has such a dynamic at work? After all the media has reported a number of high profile stories where either the white hubbie himself, or someone in his white circle, flatout made repeated racist remarks toward the black wife-yet she stayed. Im suggesting that at least in part, this factor at work to account for what we see when it comes to bw/wm couples staying together for so long. Insidious i know, but i love it! Makes life more interesting dont you think? ;)

    Yes youre right about men in general not being a big draw for “self help” books and the like and when it comes to brothas in particular that number falls even further still-yet that doesnt explain the paucity of black male bloggers i think. I havent come up with a definitive reason as to why that is yet; but i think it speaks to a number of deep psychological barriers black men have erected in general to protect themselves from what they may perceive as hostile environments. It could also simply mean that black men just aint interested in writing all that much lol.

    For whatever reason, its very hard to get black men as a group to read and write. A fascinating area of research id say.

    Which leads me to your question about banks: like i said my major beef with him is that he advocates writing brothas off. I find that interesting since hes an academic in both law and education-two areas that have not been much of a boon to black men on a whole. And lets not forget that over the past three or so decades if not longer, black people like banks have been in power positions to influence if not outright dictate educational policy-yet black men have done markedly worse as a group under a black watch. I guess what bothers me about banks’ position is that he-or blacks like him-have broken brothas’ legs and now they want to castigate them further by calling them cripples.

    Do you see what im saying here?

    O.

  • Ramble

    Men act as if they do not have a list of criteria’s they are looking for in a woman.

    I don’t know about that Liza. Even the most simple men talk about Tits and Ass. Whether or not they get it is another discussion, but they definitely list it.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “@ms rwc: Yes, by all means, please do. And while youre taking notes please add this: that the whole of my approach to game, to life itself, is that regular guys can enjoy a bit of what this world/life has to offer, by doing some very simple things to help themselves achieve. You dont have to have leading man looks, “prestige” or lots of money to do it-but you do have to be just a weebit smarter than the average bear. Any man can do what it is that i talk about be it here, vsb or my blog or anywhere else. My particular take on game, for example, rests on simpliciy, economy and commonsense. Like i said, any man can do it.”

    I don’t understand why I should take note of that. I am neither a man or an aspiring cad.

  • Zach

    @ Ramble 434

    EXACTLY my point of view. Charisma, self-respect, good conversation skills, confidence, are valuable skills/traits for LIFE. Getting more blow jobs is just a side effect.

    @ Underdog

    The above relates what I was trying to say when I said “be yourself”. I meant that I know a lot of guys who have the above traits (confidence, charisma, self-respect, etc) when around other men, but lose it as soon as someone with a vagina enters the room. That’s what I meant by “be yourself” around women.

  • Wudang

    Peppermintpanda, I am successfull aplying game with well adjusted, emotionally healthy, well educated and highly intelligent women. Game also aplies in churcy circles on the virgin girls there:

    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/why-i-subscribe-to-game/

    Don`t forget a very large part of the manosphere is christian. Those men also aply game succesffully to their own contexts and to their own relationships.

    Personally, being very into yoga, meditation and qigong I meet a lot of women that are well educated, eat extremely healthy, are in exceptional physical shape from practicing yoga daily, don`t smoke and don`t or rarely drink, never go out to clubs and are often devout buddhists or taoists or yoginis with very strong ethics and unusually high empathy. These women also often have have developed extraordinary self control through their yoga and meditation and diet regimes and sometimes have had long stretches of conciously chosen celibacy. In my personal experience game works on these women too.

    What I have found is that after learning about game and incorporating some of it I get much better responses from all women in all contexts in non sexual ways as well. Even women over 80 respond better and are more charmed by me now. This is a more or less universal experience amongst those who successfully work to incorporate some game. Once you learn the general principles and adapt them to yourself you become able to naturally aply elements of them in all sorts fo situations that aren`t strictly about pickup.

    Fastseduction has historically been the most important PUA board but has lost the significance it once had. I have spent a lot of time there. During that time I have read lots of field reports or threads asking advice by men who are with an early twenties virgin, by men who are bedding a conservative girl who has only been with her boyfriend, by men who are with a woman from a very conservative culture etc. Sure, most of the women they sleep with are clearly women who are somewhat or very promiscuous but a huge number of the posts are about women who aren`t very promiscuous, who never go out to clubs, who have netirely different interests and who come from very conservative backgrounds.

    Some posters only do online game, or only do social circle game or only do daygame (such as KrauserPUA). Most guys bail if the woman does not put out by the 3rd or 4th date but a not insignificant number of posters have several times waited far longer (many have other women to have sex with while they wait anyway), especially if the girl is a virgin. Even if a man restricts himself to women who will have sex on the 3rd or 4th date that pool includes a large number of not very slutty women. Especially, since amny women who normally would require a man to wait longer will put out earlier if she is extremely attracted to the man and she deems it necessary to catch him and that is PUAs specialty after all.

    The most common place guys who go to workshops with PUAs get taken is, in addition to clubs, to BOOKSTORES. Guys who hold workshops find it is a great place to strike up conversations with women and to meet women who are NOT your typical clubgoer. The amount of pickup done in bookstores is enormous. It is one of PUAs main supplies of dates. When people write about PUAs experience and they don`t know that then they dont know shit about PUAs experience.

    Many PUAs have reflected a lot on where the best odds of finding good women are. This guy for example:

    http://www.socialcoach.com/blog/where-are-the-women-you-want-to-meet/

    He is NOT rare amongst PUAs in saying this, I have read the same types of claims a million times on PUA boards. But of course the all knowing commentators here of course know that PUAs only go after club sluts and think they are great relationship material.

    One gross clasification sceme used at fastseduction is categorizing women as good girls, freaks and HOs and then subdividing them acording to high and low self esteem because that leads to very different behaviors. Good girls are classic relationship oriented girls who wants to wait a little bit or longer to get into a relationship. They are loving and seen as good relationship material and low drama. Freaks are very promiscuous women who are in it for the sexual thrill. They are seen as very sexual, often very good and crazy in bed. Freaks very often have visible tatoes. These girls are seen as almost always having low self esteem but there are rare exceptions to this. Freaks are generally seen as fuckbuddy material only but for those guys who are into multiple relationsips and really are good at managing them they can sometimes be one of several multiple relationship girls which means more feelings are involved than with a fuckbuddy and you spend mcuh more time with her and do stuff with her you don`t with a fuckbuddy. If in relationships freaks shit test often and hard and create loads of drama. The women Mystery likes are all extreme freaks.

    HOs are a broad category for women who in some form or another exchange sex for resources. This can mean being a bona fide gold digger, it can mean being a whore or it can mean being a woman is looking for a provider more for pragmatic reasons not so much for love of it can mean a woman who more coldly is looking to exchange her looks for status. The different varieties of HOs of course makes them very different but the exchange dynamic creates some related patterns. HOs are of course NOT relationship material.

    PUAs tend to do A LOT of work screening for women who are relationship material when they actually want a serious relationship and not just members of their harem. Wether or not the woman has a healthy self esteem is seen as key and screened healvily for. If you read posts about relationships it is clear some guys have ended up with low self esteem freaks that creates lots of drama and that some guys are continually drawn to them, but that is not the general picture. Generally the relationships appear to be have extremely low levels of drama, very much sex and be very happy compared to what you seen amongst the general poppulation. Just like the general poppulation a lot of relationships, but far from all, tend to end after 3 years once the initial madly in love phase is over and the transition to pairbonding love is neccessary. This isen`t a PUA phenomen, it is extremely common in the general poppulation up untill people get kids or marry. Furthermore, most guys who get into PUA stuff learn a bit, bed a few women, find a girlfriend and disapear from the boards neve to be heard from again. Unless of course the relationship ends and they come back asking for advice. One PUA company doing market research found that this moderately involved PUA made up the vast majority of their clientelle. This means a far higher number of PUAs (although not the most hardened and active) than one would think are in happy LTR. This actually reflects a lot of what you see amongst posters here and arround the manospehre such as MikeC and Dogsquat. People get fooled by the fact that the most known PUAs and PUA bloggers are wildly promsicuous men who aren`t focused on relationships at all. Its fairly obvious that those are the guys that would be the most prolific posters. Also, people who only spend time in the manosphere have a twisted view of what PUAs are because Roissy and Roosh are so key to the manopshere. But even amongst the most prolific posters at fastseduction and other forums Roissy and Roosh are very controversial. Many dislike them, some like them and most think they should tone down their writing. Asshole game is almost never discussed at fastseduction. Neither is mystery method or any game advice from Neil Strauss, routines etc. There is a high inner game focus and very few discuss negs although it happens.

    The definition of dominance as based on fear and controlling behavior used in this study does not describe what I talk about when I talk about dominant men, nor does it describe the type of dominance PUAs commonly refer to, nor do I believe it is what women such as Sassy refer to when they say they want a dominant man. Neither is it what Athol talks about when he talks about dominance:

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/06/pushy/

    The type of dominance we talk about is rather based on having a comanding presence or a strength of mind that makes people WANT to please you and WANT to follow you. The study is interesting in that it shows the value of social prestige. PUAs have always talked about the value of social prestige through for example DHV stories, social proof, preselction and the effect of different ways of conveing status through how you dress. The study is worthless in studying the relationship between womens attraction towards social prestige vs dominance because the definition used of dominance is a highly negative intimidation based one that totally conflicts with the view on what dominance is used by many others, for example the PUA community and Athol.

    This is a much better view of what a dominant man is:

    http://www.takeninhand.com/node/125

    I don`t think you need a commanding presence to be dominant either though and many PUAs certianly don`t. Is long as your frame of mind is strong enough and you are able to lead well and not waver if someone tests your leadership and you pass shit tests well etc. you are still dominant IMO. But having such a commanding presence certainly is very dominant.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      I read the link on “where are the women you want to meet.” I thought it was an interesting list, reflecting that blogger’s preferences:

      Nightclubs: 1 in 100
      Typical Bar: 1 in 50
      My perfect type of bar: 1 in 25
      General Daytime: 1 in 20
      Gym/Fitness/Yoga: 1 in 10
      Friends/parties: 1 in 10
      Work type function (dangerous): 1 in 10
      Playing sport: 1 in 5
      Intro via close friends (very dangerous): 1 in 5
      Common Interest Event or Classes: 1 in 5
      Bookstore: 1 in 5
      Event centered on a mutual passion: 1 in 2
      Certain sections of bookstore: 1 in 2

      Obviously, women can benefit from hanging out in those same places!

      I do think the list is also interesting in that it is a clear example of a PUA saying NAWALT in a general way. He expresses more interest in women he might see during random day encounters than in women at his perfect bar.

      Game may work on all types of women, but it’s a massive step forward to see a Game pro acknowledge that there are different kinds of women, and that they vary in quality.

  • JutR

    Liza207, on comment 225:

    I’ve read a lot of your posts, and I shake my head usually, and just carry on reading.

    But, I feel like I have a contributing comment that was capped by your 225 comment.

    My general feeling from you is a disdain for men in general, while you hold up this ideal you seek as proof that you like and enjoy men.

    I think men pick up on this. I know I did.

    Good luck in your search. You will need it, because the type of man you want will be repelled by that vibe, instead of trying to prove himself to you, as you so desire.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “I guess what bothers me about banks’ position is that he-or blacks like him-have broken brothas’ legs and now they want to castigate them further by calling them cripples.”

    This reminds me of what has been going on, and recently pointed out, in the black Church. Pastors devoting whole sermons to castigating “no good black men.” I attribute this to a fight for the alpha male position. Which links to Susan’s blog post in a way…this is @sshle dominance behavior.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “@ramble:
    Spot on re: brazil. Henry louis “skip” gates, a longtime harvard academic, has done an excellent series on pbs that examines/explores life for black folk in latin america; he spends a good bit of time in brazil and cosigns everything you just said.”
    ———

    There’s definitely racial/color stratification in Latin America, only the lines are more complicated than just black and white with more categories for the different shades of brown .
    I believe I’ve recommended the segment “Black in DR/Haiti” to Anacaona, it’s on youtube. ?

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    Thanks for the link on social science studies. I consider typical social science studies (i.e, sociology, gender issues, etc.) to be generally less than useless, and usually rigged to get an outcome. But the types of studies we are looking at here are more along the lines of individual psychology and evolutionary psychology/biology. I would think reasonable studies could be concocted for these areas – not as effectively as physical sciences, of course, but reasonable and controlled. But this study looks really sloppy in its approach.

    There was one interesting study that found that women respond differently when asked how good of a partner a partner a particular man would make for other women, than she would if she were assessing her own interest – and it wasn’t intentional on their part (and the disparity was greatest during ovulation). My guess is that women answering questions in this study are effectively answering the question “would this guy be a good [short term][long term] mate for your good friend, Sally.” I’m not sure they could accurately answer for themselves given the way the study was set up.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, FWIW, this is the way you come off to me. It may help explain your travails, it may not. It’s intended to help.

    When you post analytically, your left brain rational side is clearly in charge. You are able to think and write abstractly about what you want, or what your rational side says you ought to want. And what you write is very sensible.

    Then there are your personal stories and anecdotes. I am assuming you are being honest with these; I actually believe you, FWIW. When you write about your own experiences, it’s clear to me that Left Brain Liza is not in charge. What you actually want in practice differs from what you say you want in theory. You reject men on the flimsiest notions. You think no one is good enough for you. You say you want a guy who is 80% beta but then you hang out in Manhattan bars, the most brutal relationship market in America, where 80% betas are scarce to say the least. You report that you sit alone or with a female friend, silent until some man has the nerve to hit on you. However, no one who is 80% beta would dare do so in a Manhattan bar or anywhere else, at least not without a strong IOI from the female–which by your own account you never give. Beyond the eye-fucking of the guy in the gym.

    Basically, Left Brain Liza sees the world reasonably clearly and could lead you to a better life and more happiness. But based on what you choose to reveal here, it seems that Right Brain Liza is making all your decisions for you.

    You have two options, it seems to me. One is hard but will make you happier, I think, the other is more realistic but will lead only to the happiness that arises from wisdom and self-knowledge.

    1) is to put your Left Brain fully in control of your actual mating decisions. Stop doing what you are doing and try other things. I think you know what those other things are; in any case most of the men here can explain them to you. The hard part will be, your Left Brain has to get full control of our Right Brain. It has to tame and it and make it take orders. Best of all would be to change what your right brain finds attractive. I don’t believe this is impossible but it is hard. In any event, to some extent simply by controlling our appetites we can temper them, which is good. A glutton simply by not eating perhaps can never eliminate his hunger but he can reduce it.

    2) is simply to recognize what you actually prefer and insist on and accept that in your left brain. This requires intellectual courage but not a huge act of will. I think it is unlikely that you will ever find what you are looking for but who knows. I don’t know what the odds are. They are much better than winning the lottery; I’m not one of those who thinks that spinsterhood is fore-ordained. However, if you continue to hold the standards you hold you’re making it harder on yourself.

    I guess I don’t know enough about you to know whether you are being realistic or not. It’s possible that all these guys you’ve rejected are truly well beneath you in SMV. It’s also possible that you want too much, both too many points higher on the scale than yourself and also too much alpha. I’m pretty sure about the latter based on what you write. I could not say about the former without knowing more but the fact that you are in the situation you are in suggests that both are true to some extent.

  • Ted D

    Wudang – “Don`t forget a very large part of the manosphere is christian. Those men also aply game succesffully to their own contexts and to their own relationships.”

    I’ve been hitting that part of the ‘sphere in the last month, and although I find it to be more moral, it is no less discouraging. I’ve been out of the “Church” for decades, but it seems that even the staunch conservative world of Christianity has fallen victim to feminism full force. I contemplated going back to church (although I will NOT go back to Catholicism) but I don’t think the environment is any better there. In fact, it may be worse because it is all hidden behind the cloak of faith.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    My general feeling from you is a disdain for men in general, while you hold up this ideal you seek as proof that you like and enjoy men.
    —-
    How predictable is this comment? *Yawn*

  • Alias

    Obsidian,

    “there could very well be reasons other than the ones championed by the “swirlers”-one of them informed by evopsych-that women can and will put up with a lot from a man provided hes high status enough”
    ———
    >That’s possible too. I was thinking more along the lines of the other variables the study was trying to control for which lower the risk of divorce.
    _________________________________________
    O: “For whatever reason, its very hard to get black men as a group to read and write. A fascinating area of research id say.”
    ——
    > I’m the “anonymous” (prior to picking a handle) who once suggested that you try the youtube route or some other venue to reach them. Perhaps you can find out directly from them what would get their attention.
    ________________________
    O: “I guess what bothers me about banks’ position is that he-or blacks like him-have broken brothas’ legs and now they want to castigate them further by calling them cripples. ”
    ———-
    > Isn’t that *somewhat related* (indirectly) to the subject of the First Lady’s highly criticized thesis?
    Have you read it?
    She was questioning whether the very process of attaining higher education makes the person lose touch with those they left behind, when their original goal was to get educated, then return to give back (something to that effect).

  • Ramble

    There’s definitely racial/color stratification in Latin America, only the lines are more complicated than just black and white with more categories for the different shades of brown .

    That’s right. There, at least in Brasil, isn’t much of a color line. But the results are very similar.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    I say that because i wanted you to know precisely where i was coming from and why-not because i want you to become a man or an “aspiring cad”. Nice try at denigrating game too-a bit less florid next time?

    As for banks-and this is coming from someone who’s actually read the book(!)-i dont buy your analysis. I dont think much alpha male posturing is at work here as much as good ole class struggle stuff, combined with a good dash of white knighting and a bit of skin in the game on banks’ part as he has sisters who are spinsters.

    Oh, id be very surprised if a guy like tiger woods rolled into the room with a serena williams or an india aire on his arm…just sayin.

    As for black folk being so nuanced i think the way obamas been treated pretty much answers that question; indeed, malcolm x summed it up best:

    “tell me, what do you call a black man who’s a phd, an lld, etc? Ill tell you what the white man calls him-a n***er.”

    Malcolm definitely had a talent for and appreciation of, simplicity.

    Gotta love it!

    O.

  • Herb

    @Liza

    So, men cannot be in tune with their male instincts and be civilized at the same time.

    Civilization is not a natural state, no. Settlements period are only about 12,000 years old and cities, the essence of civilization,

    By contrast Homo Sapiens is about 250,000 years old.

    Constant living in groups that are larger than clans and settled is an adaptation that was developed by the brain, not instincts. As such it needs to be trained into young people. While a baseline is built in I suspect it’s closer to chimps than any human culture we know.

    However, I did not approach I could not some Cougar was all up in his face and trailing him all over the gym. He did not appear to be interested but just being polite while she engaged in small talk (clearly hitting on him). I probably should have stepped in but we make more eye contact while she was chatting him up–that was it. Baby steps, okay.

    I had a friend whose buddy at the gym was getting hit on by a 70+ cougar (he’s 40). I love how we have women’s only gyms so they can workout without being hit on but women feel fine about approaching men.

    As for you and baby steps, go you. Perhaps you need a YoLU (Year of Living Uncomfortably)?

    Okay, I think I will take you up on that.

    herb_hus@darketiquette.com (I own the domain and that’s a one time email for HUS people and I’ll hook you up with the real one). We can talk details.

    It is hard work for a woman to be feminine and pleasant to be around. Men act as if they do not have a list of criteria’s they are looking for in a woman. Oh, I see, women should not have any–the nerves.

    It is hard. Almost no women do it anymore. In fact, most women are proud not to do it. Many are proud to be more like a sailor than I was. The result is a lot of men don’t even look for it anymore.

    Funny thing, working in a big building (tallest building in the Americas not in NYC or Chicago :) ) I see more and more feminine women. They’re mostly nurses from next door and the secretaries at the law firms. The “career women” (despite the nurses probably having the most secure careers) for the most part haven’t learned it.

    Although a couple of the lawyers have figured out the Katherine Hepburn assertive feminity you see in movies like Desk Set. They certainly turn my head :)

  • JutR

    Liza207, advice freely offered is worth what you pay for it. I am glad you have heard similar analysis of your posts, enough for it to be predictable.

  • Wonder

    ”How predictable is this comment? *Yawn”

    The irony in this sentence is that I have guys who probably fulfill your criteria for a FWB/relationship type of guy but not one of them would be interested in approaching you because you kinda come out as a bit arrogant and narcissist, lol.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    My general feeling from you is a disdain for men in general, while you hold up this ideal you seek as proof that you like and enjoy men.
    —-
    I also want to add, I guess I should just pat men on the head and tell them they should just be themselves and women will want them that way. However, telling them the truth and hoping they will change for the better is showing them disdain.

    This is why I keep saying that most men cannot handle the truth concerning what women really and honestly desire when it comes to them.

    Okay, so just be yourself. Is that better now?

  • JutR

    It seems you have mistakenly attributed some arguments to me. It happens on the internet, so I take no offense.

    My point was that you put out a vibe that tells ‘me’ that you really don’t like men. My experience is that women who emit this vibe do not attract top men.

    You can attempt to analyze me based on what I said, and what I clarified, but I did not ask you a question, or make an argument.

  • Ramble

    Civilization is not a natural state, no.

    Constant living in groups that are larger than clans and settled is an adaptation that was developed by the brain, not instincts.

    Herb, scream that shit from the mountain tops.

    These polite and productive societies that we live in are not the result of some happy accident.

    They are, and were, the result of specific Human Action.

  • J

    @SW

    Just recently Roissy posted a list of playful, dominant gestures that are panty droppers, including the suggestion that you should tape a “Kick me” sign to her back as she leaves the house in the morning. I mean, seriously…

    Who’s doing the writing over there now? Roissy’s 14 yo bastard son?

    But if you point this out on any manosphere blog you will be howled down , and derided….Yes, but it only took me dozens of attempts to learn that!

    You and me both! I’m trying hard to convince myself that I’m obstinant, not stupid.

  • Tasmin

    @Escoffier
    I’m totally with you on the height and alpha/beta relationship as you experience it. I’m probably 5’9″, though I always put down 5’10″. An interesting side note is that women – even loved ones I have dated have called me out on my claim of 5’10″, as if they are keenly aware of what constitutes 5’10″. In any case, I can relate, if not based on height, general physical stature. I’m lucky (and dedicated) enough to be fit, sometimes to the point of drawing attention (which I find uncomfortable) but am far from Alpha by most measures. I’m introverted, rarely exhibit aggressive behaviors, and often have to press through painful deficits of confidence that most people would find hard to believe based on what they may see physically.

    That said, the shorter, high-ego, aggressive types that become players may do so in spite of their height, but I don’t think that discounts the perceived value – the attribution of status (even potential status down the road: kids, etc.) that women project onto the over 6′ crowd. At the very least, the taller men literally stand out in a crowd and in terms of initial attraction – taller men will win out nearly every time. Of course, they will have to back it up with the other drivers of attraction and thus may not actually experience the rewards/advantage of their height, but in most settings physical attributes (male height being primary among them) is what thins the herd.

    For shorter men, it is just that much more difficult to claw-back the initial ‘measuring up’ that happens. We can deliver on other attributes, but will have to make that much more of an impact to overcome the initial physical differences. Perhaps that is why the shorter players tend to be even more loud, aggressive, etc.

    And I think it is important to note that getting laid (short-term) as a 5’8″ ‘player’ type probably does not reflect the actual selection/attraction criteria for the vast majority of women looking for the long-term. I.e. willingness to bang a ‘charismatic’, ‘confident’, short guy – have some fun, is both drawing from a minority population to begin with as well as assuming that the short-term qualifications for a mate are aligned with the long-term.

    Maybe I just hang out with too many tall guys, but I can see the tickler play out in the eyes of women when we enter a room – and the biggest players I know are tall guys, a couple of them are beta, but have learned to hone the other things well enough to get what they want. Being tall nets them vastly more female approaches, a rare thing to begin with, as well as perceived dominance over their physical surroundings (other men) particularly in those horrible settings like bars and clubs, though parks and bookstores are not exactly neutral territory.

    I’ve spent very little time in the online dating setting, but from what I have seen height is very important to women. I know this is one of those agree-to-disagree things, like whether or not players bag non-promiscuous women or not, but I think there are two categories in which height is viewed: relative to her; and relative to other men she has been with and/or views as attainable. Relative to her is the ultimate fallback, i.e. just be 3″ taller than me so I can wear heels or whatever. Relative to other men is where it gets tricky. The interesting thing is that in my experience, women in their 20′s operate through the lens of relative to other men, while in their 30′s or beyond, tend to be more focused on ‘just be a little taller than me’ – if not, have a third leg and nice arms. A full head of hair is nice too…

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Wudang
    “well educated, eat extremely healthy, are in exceptional physical shape from practicing yoga daily, don’t smoke and don’t or rarely drink, never go out to clubs and are often devout buddhists or taoists or yoginis with very strong ethics and unusually high empathy.”

    If I’m correct in assuming that you appreciate these traits in women (rather than just blowing them off as not-a-big-deal), thank you for posting this. It warms my heart to see this.

  • http://www.lifetheroughdraft.com/blog Rone

    “I’m a five foot six man with a receding hairline. If i’m not dominant in some kind of way, or flash my money around, i’m not going to be dating attractive women – PERIOD!!!”

    Gotta get in where you fit in. That’s almost the beauty of being a man. Since women aren’t as shallow as we are in terms of physical attributes, we can make up for it in other ways.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Gotta get in where you fit in. That’s almost the beauty of being a man. Since women aren’t as shallow as we are in terms of physical attributes, we can make up for it in other ways.

      This reminds me of a great quote:

      “You can punch above your weight if you’re funny. It’s a nice thing that God gave women that one blind spot.”
      — Seth Meyers

  • Herb

    @Liza

    My general feeling from you is a disdain for men in general, while you hold up this ideal you seek as proof that you like and enjoy men.
    —-
    How predictable is this comment? *Yawn*

    I hate to say this but you do.

    And I am trying to help you and I see you in much the way Escoffier writes about. Thinking Liza has it going on and seems fun but some part of you is giving off an “I’m too good for you vibe”.

    Here I read what you write, conclude that’s closer to the real you, and want to help you find someone and do well.

    A random guy at a bar or a gym is going to read it hard.

    And you know what, at some level I think you know it too…that’s why the remark about starting to approach gym guy was “baby steps”.

    It’s always why I aplauded you for taking baby steps.

  • Alias

    Ramble:
    “That’s right. There, at least in Brasil, isn’t much of a color line. But the results are very similar.”
    ———
    Instead of the “one drop rule” (one drop of black= you’re black) in America, they adopted categories working in the opposite direction where the more *drops of white* a person has (genotype + phenotype), the “higher up” the hierarchy they are.
    If you remember in Prof Gates’ series there, this hierarchy with its unclear lines makes it easier to deny that there’s still a race problem.

  • J

    @Iggles

    If im so very out to lunch it seems very odd that you would come all the way to france to give me a piece of your mind;…..Dude, it’s the internet. People from all around the world can post here…

    LMAO!! That is hysterically funny.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    I guess I don’t know enough about you to know whether you are being realistic or not. It’s possible that all these guys you’ve rejected are truly well beneath you in SMV. It’s also possible that you want too much, both too many points higher on the scale than yourself and also too much alpha. I’m pretty sure about the latter based on what you write. I could not say about the former without knowing more but the fact that you are in the situation you are in suggests that both are true to some extent.
    ——
    Escoffier,

    This comment is such a typical one. Every time men want to chop a woman down to size; make negative references to her looks. LOL! You don’t ever know what I look like! However, you still had to go there–amazing.

    I have never said anything in reference to men hitting on me being below my SMV. I just cannot stand strawman arguments.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, I said nothing about your looks beyond saying that I don’t know. Read that again, it’s pretty clear. Also, SMV is more than just looks though for women looks account for well over 50%.

    I don’t know what your SMV is, I don’t know the SMV of the guys you are blowing off. It’s possible they are beneath you. However, given a lot of factors, including the typical male’s approach anxiety, it’s unlikley that too many guys a point or two beneath you would have the sack to approach you. It might happen from time to time but not often.

    I went based on what you did say: none of the guys you want ever approach you; they guys who do approach you, you don’t want. Hence something isn’t working. What I posted are possible, perhaps likely, explanations.

    The fact is, I doubt you–or your right brain–actually wants an 80% beta guy. 80% betas are not so hard to find. If you really wanted one, you could have one. The thing is, though, they are mostly not going to approach like a full alpha and sweep you off your feet. Their 20% alpha will be revealed to you after you give them a chance, not put on display at the first instant.

    I think what you really want is a guy that is a lot more alpha. But the logical side of your brain knows that such a guy will be hard to get and a lot of trouble if you get him so it tells you to say you want one more beta. But it can’t seem to convince the rest of you to go along.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    But, Liza, this is like saying you are against knives because they can be used to hurt and kill, and not just slice up country ham.
    ——
    The thing is, knives in the wrong hands can be very deadly.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms alias:
    Yea i recall your youtube suggestion; ill consider it. But i really do think writing orders your mind in a certain way and its my view that brothas need that. So again thanks ill think it over.

    as for banks, youre not getting me. What im saying is that i find it interesting that he takes the view that he has when it was black people like him who ran the schools black boys have been flunking out in forever in the first place. Motown is nothing short of a dump and its been under black control since the latter 60s. Dc had virtual black control for the past few decades and look what happened to black boys and men. Atlanta, same deal-theyve had a huge test score fraud scandal in the news over the past year. Black people like banks ran those schools; and the biggest losers are black boys.

    Theres a number of serious areas of disagreement with banks’ book but the above is just one of them. Hope you see what im saying now.

    O.

  • Escoffier

    Knives in the right hands produce tourne and brunoise. :-)

    The knife analogy is bad in any case because no one chooses to get stabbed but women do choose to sleep with players.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Knives in the right hands produce tourne and brunoise.

      The knife analogy is bad in any case because no one chooses to get stabbed but women do choose to sleep with players.

      Couldn’t resist the foodie comment. I just want to weigh in on Game (which I support).

      If Game gets a woman into bed, then presumably both she and the guy are getting exactly what they want. There is nothing inherently dishonest about Game. It’s simply a very accurate and concise study of female psychology and sexuality. Everything about Game is widely available for free. If women wanted to defend themselves against it, it would be easy. They do not want to do so. We like being seduced.

      The problem is in the intent. If a man is offering no-strings sex, or “don’t ask, don’t tell,” it’s the woman’s responsibility to suss out his intent. Many don’t bother. That’s on them, no sympathy if it doesn’t pan out. However, coercion is a tried and true method for men to gain access to sex. A man may pretend to be emotionally invested, pretend to be exclusive, or pretend to be interested in a relationship to get a reluctant woman into bed. This is deeply immoral.

      The fact that bad men wield Game is unfortunate. Therefore, women should be extremely careful about who they have sex with. Women are the gatekeepers, and you can’t give men that responsibility. There will be times when even careful women are deceived, and that is bad luck. But that didn’t start with Game. That kind of exploitation goes back a couple of million years.

  • Zach

    @Liza

    Couple things: Manhattan dating market is the most brutal for women in the country. No doubt about it. As a guy, I love it, but I have really yet to find a non-promiscuous woman who does.

    Second: I’m not the 80% beta guy you want, but I have quite a few friends who are, and I can say from experience they’re never going to approach you, no matter how good you look, without some indication that you’re interested, be that an eye-fuck, a smile, anything (seriously, those aren’t asking that much). Hell, depending on how good you looked, I might not even approach you. You’re surrounded by other girls who are giving out IOIs in my direction. You’re a 9, they’re 8s. I’m almost always going after the easier, interested 8s than the aloof, could-spend-all-night-talking-and-get-nowhere 9.

  • Ramble

    If you remember in Prof Gates’ series there, this hierarchy with its unclear lines makes it easier to deny that there’s still a race problem.

    But, it’s just not about denial.

    After Anti-Racism became the most and bestest good that anyone could be and have, it became common for all sorts of people from all over the world to claim how right-thinking they were.

    And Brasil, as far as I can tell, played right into that. “See, here, in Brasil, we don’t have a color line, because we are not racist.”

    For me, France is probably the greatest example of this. They would invite some jazz musicians over, cover them with praise, and let everyone know how right-thinking they were. Then, fast forward a few decades, and you see riots in les banlieues.

  • Ramble

    The thing is, knives in the wrong hands can be very deadly.

    That is absolutely correct.

    So, knowing that, are you against knives? More specifically, are you against adults having knives?

    Or, are you simply against people using knives for evil purposes?

    =======================

    Feel free to insert the word “Game” for knives in the above statements.

  • Ramble

    The knife analogy is bad in any case because no one chooses to get stabbed but women do choose to sleep with players.

    Feel free to replace it with a better analogy. I simply went for the simplest analogy I could think of to move things along.

    Also, for some of the debaters here, they view girls as being “victims” to Game. So, I tried to use an analogy where you might be victimized.

  • Escoffier

    “Hey baby, check out my new 240mm Kikuichi gyuto. How about I slash your forearm.”

    “Bouncer!”

    No one beyond a tiny % of masochists ever asks to get cut. Millions of women OTOH respond well to game.

    Let’s ditch the knife analogy.

  • Ramble

    Like I said Escoffier, feel free to replace it. Though, I doubt you read my last comment.

  • Ted D

    Herb – “And I am trying to help you and I see you in much the way Escoffier writes about. Thinking Liza has it going on and seems fun but some part of you is giving off an “I’m too good for you vibe”.”

    I have to say, this may be a personality thing. I do this, other INTJs I know do this. It is almost as if we are two people, us and “thinking” us. If I’m in a mood, the “real” me might not be very logical. When I’m actually trying to “think”, I generally follow strict guidelines of my own. I’m sure you’ve seen it here. I bet you can easily spot the days I’m emotionally stressed versus the days I’m cold and calculating.

    Escoffier – “The knife analogy is bad in any case because no one chooses to get stabbed but women do choose to sleep with players.”

    I don’t buy that. SOME women choose to sleep with players. Others sleep with players that pretended to be something else entirely. In those cases, the women in question didn’t choose to sex up a player, she bought the crap he was selling. She is still at fault for being duped, but that isn’t the same as willingly having sex with a cad. I just honestly don’t know how much “dark game” is going on compared to what the ‘sphere wants us to believe. My only personal experiences with “game” were from dark players mostly, and of those only two were direct contact. The rest were filtered through women, and looking back I just can’t say for sure if all of them really were cads, or if it was the hamster doing its thing. After all, I spent a good bit of my early life as a beta orbiter in addition to a typical married beta.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I believe I’ve recommended the segment “Black in DR/Haiti” to Anacaona, it’s on youtube. ?

    No you haven’t. I know the dynamics but I didn’t wanted to interrupt the theme because not sure if Brazil is the same. In DR Even if there is race issues interratial marriage is not the problem, a poor or middle class white man can marry a poor or middle class black woman and the other way around and few people will bat an eyelash, in fact I will say a light skinned woman not pursuing a lighter skinned man is more shamed than if the genders were inverted or at least it was for a long time. The problem is interclass marriage, which I have to admit I personally don’t believe in, and even though the ruling class is like 90% white and the lower class is 90% dark skinned (I don’t think you can find pure blacks in my country anymore) is more about the money and origin of the family than the coloring. The ruling class is white mostly because of being descendants from Spaniards and rich people from Europe that established themselves there to open business or escaped Spain civil war and their communities are really closed to strangers. But the minority that manages to rise to their level can and will marry with white people without a lot of protest. I confirmed this when I was touring in some rich kids schools and I could find interracial marriages among people of the same upper class, YMMV.

  • Herb

    @Escoffier

    No one beyond a tiny % of masochists ever asks to get cut.

    Hey….not all knife play involves actual cutting. Actually most doesn’t.

  • Escoffier

    OK, my stab (heh) at a better analogy.

    Game is like a licit drug. It can be used to treat real symptoms or abused for pleasure and profit (or other reasons). Even in the latter case, though, the buyer/user is still morally cuplable. It’s not enough to say “That guy selling oxytocin is an asshole.” Maybe he is but the buyers are too and they create the market.

    Liza implicitly relieves women of all responsibilty for responding to game (at the same time she excoriates her would-be suitors for lacking sufficient game). It’s like she thinks that women are powerless in the face of a determined, skillful game assault. Rather like the way a hopeless addict cannot resist the entreaties of a pusher. Actually, that’s a ple where she and the the misogynistic manosphere agree, though she will not like hearing that.

  • Herb

    @Ted

    I have to say, this may be a personality thing. I do this, other INTJs I know do this. It is almost as if we are two people, us and “thinking” us. If I’m in a mood, the “real” me might not be very logical. When I’m actually trying to “think”, I generally follow strict guidelines of my own. I’m sure you’ve seen it here

    I didn’t equate it to INTJ but I’ve known people like that so I give benefit of the doubt.

    Hell, if I had to bet real money I’d say Liza’s most likely an 8 in looks which I think is part of what causes the issue.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hell, if I had to bet real money I’d say Liza’s most likely an 8 in looks which I think is part of what causes the issue.

      IIRC, Liza found me via the Do Pretty Girls Have it Harder? post. I believe she’s been told all her life that she is beautiful, and gets a lot of attention from the wrong kind of guys. I appreciate that as a real dilemma. Beautiful women are a challenge to players with the hardest hearts, and most beta guys won’t even dream of going there. I’ve seen beautiful girls go for beta guys, who were originally thrilled, but then couldn’t really deal – usually things went south due to jealousy, possessiveness, or fear that the girl would be poached by some alpha stud.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Escoffier,

    I respect everything you have stated in your posts addressed to me. I can honestly say that I don’t like making excuses for myself (although, I cannot say the same for a lot of the men here) and cannot tolerate those who do. I have said on here, I know that I have to make some changes. But of course, any time a woman criticizes men–she hates them. However, the opposite is never true for some reason. Go figure.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “as for banks, youre not getting me. What im saying is that i find it interesting that he takes the view that he has when it was black people like him who ran the schools black boys have been flunking out in forever in the first place.”
    ——-

    I see. The alternative would be for people like him to blame themselves for failing, I doubt they’ll do that.
    What I was saying is that their policies might be ineffective because they’ve lost touch and no longer understand what motivates the people they’re trying to help.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, I don’t think you are making excuses for yourself. I think you rationally and correctly understand the type of guy who is good for you but you also can’t generate any attraction for him. You are in the same boat as Sassy, though she seems to understand and accept it better than you do.

    You both deserve credit however for not constantly succumbing to alphas and then whining about it after.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “No one beyond a tiny % of masochists ever asks to get cut. Millions of women OTOH respond well to game.

    Let’s ditch the knife analogy.”

    But those millions of women may not have a clue about “game” and certainly don’t seem to have any idea of what makes themselves tick. So in essence, a guy using “game” to dupe a women into sex is using her naivety against her. Yes, I know I’m painting a victim here, but what else do you call someone that is taken advantage of? If you are sold a crappy car, there are lemon laws to help. The person that bought the car was duped, but THEY were not the immoral party, the salesperson was.

    It isn’t that game works that I take issue with. It is that instead of showing everyone, some men are using it to their advantage. I firmly believe that the proper thing to do when a flaw is found in a system is fix it, not exploit it. Yes “game” is a reaction to the current environment. But is it the right one? The moral one? The ethical one? I’m all for men knowing what they are up against, but not for teaching them how to cheat the competition. To me game knowledge is amoral, but many of the ways “game” is used in practice are very much immoral. A gun or a knife is amoral, but the user of a gun or a knife may not be. We are giving young men guns and knives without verifying their moral and ethic standing. THAT is my issue.

    I’m also not against things like background checks for gun ownership, so perhaps it really comes down to a philosophical/theological disagreement. I’m not highly religious in the traditional sense, but I have a very strong moral code built from religious teachings. I simply can’t find a way to match much of how game is used with my beliefs, and to be honest I’m beginning to think they are mutually exclusive.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Still waiting to see your posts…

    And i dont know about anyone else, but i am LOVING the analysis of lizas rationalization hamster! Classic stuff, ms walsh needs to make a post out of it. Validates all the studies about female human sexuality to a tee, to say nothing about that age old wisdom in game circles about not paying attention to anything women say along these lines.

    And wudang-excellent! I think your post puts a nice bow on the whole “whats game worth?” discussion, dont you think?

    O.

  • Herb

    @Liza
    <blockquote.I have said on here, I know that I have to make some changes. But of course, any time a woman criticizes men–she hates them.

    I recognize the first and admire anyone (male, female, or brony) willing to admit it in public.

    I don’t think all women who criticize men hate them. Hell, sometimes I think they’re right. When they’re wrong I think it’s more for either misinformation or not having thought some things through (seeing it from the male view) both of which up to a certain age I blame our culture.

    However, certain attitudes in certain environments where quick reads are a vital skill (bar, fist fight) will error on reading them as “hate so move on” even if that’s not correct.

    I’m much more patient on the net than a lot of real life (and that is a learned skill at that).

  • Escoffier

    I believe game as used by players is immoral, I just don’t conclude from that that the women are any less immoral or in any sense victims. Game is a symbiotic relationship, like pusher+addict. They both need to be invested in the trasnaction and it’s a choice for both.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “In DR Even if there is race issues interratial marriage is not the problem, a poor or middle class white man can marry a poor or middle class black woman and the other way around and few people will bat an eyelash,”
    ——

    I didn’t? Well, I meant to.
    Regarding what you’re writing here:
    In that segment- they explain why race took a slightly different direction in DR. If I recall correctly, in DR- there was a shift from plantations to raising cattle which meant that all involved where able to work side by side with one another so the dynamics are different than in countries where people primarily worked on plantations.
    It also goes into why there’s friction between Dominicans and Haitians.
    Here you go.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9j4BoZH0rA

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “Game is a symbiotic relationship, like pusher+addict. They both need to be invested in the trasnaction and it’s a choice for both.”

    Ah shit… I get where you are coming from here. Yes, I see this. But I would counter that at least a junkie KNOWS they are doing something wrong. I would argue that many woman really don’t know that they are “addicted” to alpha. Which would be like a drug dealer slipping someone a “Mickey” to get them hooked. I know that ignorance is not an excuse when it comes to law, but what about when it comes to morality? Can you expect someone to act in a moral manner if they don’t know any other way to behave?

  • Sassy6519
  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “I dont think much alpha male posturing is at work here as much as good ole class struggle stuff, combined with a good dash of white knighting and a bit of skin in the game on banks’ part as he has sisters who are spinsters.”

    I see. That makes sense. I appreciate the clarification.

  • Escoffier

    Women may not know that they are addicted to alpha but they know enough to get embarassed by a high count. Hence even in an age in which it is supposedly wrong to call a slut a slut, women innately know that they don’t want to be thought a slut. They know something is wrong with sleeping around but many do it anyway.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    @Escoffier, Ramble & Ted

    I believe that Game (not Dark Game) when utilized by a decent/”beta” guy just looking to improve his confidence is perfectly find. But using tactics like; instilling fear, keeping her off balance, mean-spirited negs and other damaging methods involving mind games (psychological shit) can be very damaging to a woman in a long-term relationship or marriage.

    I believe that this is the route many omegas and gammas take when applying game. Not good.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But using tactics like; instilling fear, keeping her off balance, mean-spirited negs and other damaging methods involving mind games (psychological shit) can be very damaging to a woman in a long-term relationship or marriage.

      Cosigned. Not only that, it’s damaging to the relationship. Honestly, I feel strongly enough about this that if my husband pulled that shit I would give one warning and then be ready to leave if it happened again.

  • Escoffier

    Ted, BTW, and I mean this WADR, your attitude is somewhat dismaying. Basically you are making all these excuses for women one breath, and then in the next you frequently write about how bad it is where you live with all the single moms and what not. Well, there is probably a connection. If even someone like you who can see some of the problems with today’s SMP and who hates the playa lifestyle nonetheless believes all kinds of exculpatory reasons why women are not really to blame for their plight … then imagine the rest of the messages those women are getting.

    Is anyone, anywhere, telling them “NO!” Don’t do that! If you do that and X inevitably follows, it’s your damned fault and nobody else’s!

    Sounds like no one is.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I wholly disagree with the notion that game is somehow “immoral”-rubbish. Game is AMORAL, just like human sexuality is inherently amoral. To be sure, theres something to be said about the moral compass of the practitioner of game but thats a seperate issue from the inherent nature of game itself.

    I know this forum tends to attract lots of moralizers but the truth is that deception is part of the mating process for ALL species on earth. Both men and women lie all the time about their intentions and so forth when it comes to mating. That doesnt make it right but it does make it real and in purely evopsych terms, it had to serve a purpose if it has survived to this day.

    Oh and i do hope ms rwc caught the part where wudang said that game works on the yoginis too. ;)

    O.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, that is one place where I part company with many game bloggers. You will hear some of them say that “dread” and all that stuff will work on any woman and it’s a delusion to think it only works on low quality women. IME and observation a truly high quality woman (a specimen the hardest of the hard core gamers deny even exists) will not put up with being treated like shit forever.

    BUT we all know couples in which one or both parties is truly terrible to the other and yet they stay together. Clearly it works on some people. You can say it’s immoral for a guy to use it on a girl, which is all well and good, but it’s her responsibility not to put up with it. If you are being treated so terribly by a guy, you need to take action.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “Is anyone, anywhere, telling them “NO!” Don’t do that! If you do that and X inevitably follows, it’s your damned fault and nobody else’s!”

    Absolutely not. In fact, much of modern society here in the West tells them to live it up! This is exactly what I’m trying to point out in fact. The girls I was talking about last week had horrible parents. They mostly got their idea of morality and ethics from watching TV and going along with what their friends did. They aren’t stupid at all, but they are completely misguided and without much in terms of integrity.

    And that is my point. So, we know about “game” and the SMP and we all discuss here how it is broken. To me, the next logical step is to start blaring this from every rooftop possible. Put it all out in the open, and at least then no one can claim ignorance. At that point, any woman “taken in” by a cad is totally at fault. Any guy that has no luck with women is 100% to blame.

    I honestly had hope that in the more traditional world of religion this was happening, but clearly the truth is being hidden there just as much, if not more so. It is exactly this kind of BS that pushed me away from the Church in the first place. They are not concerned with people’s faith and spirituality. They are just another organization concerned with power and influence.

  • Escoffier

    Ted my point is that someone like you, who is clued in to what is wrong, you above all need to be a voice of “NO” not one more voice in the chorus of excuses. I realize it feels uncompassionate but the alternative is actually way more uncompassionate.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Wudang, @Obsidian

    I co-sign Obsidian’s praise. It’s a very good presentation that adds to the breadth of strategic social interaction. Wudang’s post actually touches upon a complaint from many women regarding desirable Beta guys…it’s hard to do the mating dance when the guy is afraid to make any moves.

    The true breadth of “game” often gets narrowed in the typical discussion. The usual “getting the hot chicks” stuff is what contributes to the negative connotation of game, IMO. I came away from Wudang’s post with some idea of a distinction between run-of-the-mill caddery and strategic social interaction.

  • Ted D

    Obsidian – “To be sure, theres something to be said about the moral compass of the practitioner of game but thats a seperate issue from the inherent nature of game itself.”

    Exactly. And from what I observe at many ‘sphere sites there is a severe lack of moral compass, if one exists there at all.

    I have no issue with game knowledge. To me it is no different than knowing self defense or martial arts. Plenty of people know karate, yet we don’t hear about hordes of ninjas attacking people at the mall. But, lets be honest, many ‘sphere sites aren’t simply teaching karate. They are teaching it while encouraging their “students” to go beat up some people to get a feel for how a real fight works. I’ve seen numerous posts where a PUA type suggests that for man to truly understand game and women, he should bang tons of women. Does that seem like a moral or ethical thing to suggest? Is the only way to understand a woman is through her vagina?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I’ve seen numerous posts where a PUA type suggests that for man to truly understand game and women, he should bang tons of women. Does that seem like a moral or ethical thing to suggest? Is the only way to understand a woman is through her vagina?

      Thank you. I have no use for that argument. The moral equivalency at work there is staggering. Two other common forms it takes:

      1. Roissy is intended to be taken with a grain of salt. Most beta guys need that shakeup to know what’s what, and can implement just a small portion of what he suggests to improve their lives. BS.

      2. Guys need to go through a Dark period to understand Game and return to the Light. BS.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Liza implicitly relieves women of all responsibilty for responding to game (at the same time she excoriates her would-be suitors for lacking sufficient game). It’s like she thinks that women are powerless in the face of a determined, skillful game assault. Rather like the way a hopeless addict cannot resist the entreaties of a pusher. Actually, that’s a ple where she and the the misogynistic manosphere agree, though she will not like hearing that.
    ——–
    Escoffier,

    The thing is, anytime I say that Game only works on dumb sluts with emotional issues. I keep getting “no, it does not, it works best on intelligent high quality women” or some other nonsense.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “Ted my point is that someone like you, who is clued in to what is wrong, you above all need to be a voice of “NO” not one more voice in the chorus of excuses. I realize it feels uncompassionate but the alternative is actually way more uncompassionate.”

    Oh no, I agree with you completely. And I’m trying to be the NO guy on a personal level. But even if I put 24×7 effort into it, I’ll be pissing in the wind. I’m not kidding when I said I’ve looked into returning to a church, because I had hoped maybe it would be a place where I could make a bit more difference. But so far there is little to be encouraged about here. Many so called Christian counselling organizations are simply femcentric groups that do more harm than good. My own experience with faith based counselling was the same, but I thought perhaps we simply chose badly. But it looks like feminism is deeply entrenched in at least some of the Christian denominations in the West. In most cases no matter what happens to a marriage, the blame falls squarely at the feet of the husband, while the wife is often relieved of all guilt and repercussions from the congregation. These so called pillars of morality are fully corrupt and there is little hope that they will stand up for the plight of men.

  • Ramble

    instilling fear, keeping her off balance, mean-spirited negs and other damaging methods involving mind games (psychological shit) can be very damaging to a woman in a long-term relationship or marriage.

    What about “passing” shit tests?
    What about “playful teasing”?
    What about pursuing his “needs”?
    What about being “dominant”?

    I put all of those things in quotes because they can be defined and understood in so many different ways.

  • Ramble

    The thing is, anytime I say that Game only works on dumb sluts with emotional issues. I keep getting “no, it does not, it works best on intelligent high quality women” or some other nonsense.

    Do intelligent girls like intelligent, and charismatic, guys?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Do intelligent girls like intelligent, and charismatic, guys?

      This is a very astute question. I think intelligent women adore intelligent guys with Game. But Game alone is not going to make a meathead attractive to a smart woman. Intelligence is an important female attraction cue, but in my experience, it is most important to women of high intelligence themselves. For obvious reasons.

  • Escoffier

    Liza, the whole argument about whether game works on dumb sluts or smart girls is a binary straw man. Both are true and false at the same time, depending on what is meant by the word “works.”

    If “works” means “she sleeps with you on the first night” then, yes, tautologically she is a dumb slut. Only a dumb slut would sleep with you on the first night or, if you want to split hairs, a high IQ girl with the emotional stability of Zelda Fitzgerald.

    OTOH, game can be said to “work” merely if it excites a girl’s attraction triggers. A smart girl might, in spite of herself, respond well to a guy with good game but also stop short of screwing him because she is smart and has good character. Game still nonetheless “worked” in generating attraction. I am guessing this has happened to you.

    Or, best case scenario. Not all guys with game are players and assholes. Some are good guys, moral guys. Every woman’s fantasy is to be courted by a good guy with game but one who is loyal to her. This may be rare but it is far from impossible. Here is another case where game “worked” and the girl was not necessarily a dumb slut.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    What about “passing” shit tests?
    What about “playful teasing”?
    What about pursuing his “needs”?
    What about being “dominant”?
    —–

    Ramble,

    What you listed is not dark, however, what I listed were examples of Dark Game.

  • Wudang

    @Wudang
    “well educated, eat extremely healthy, are in exceptional physical shape from practicing yoga daily, don’t smoke and don’t or rarely drink, never go out to clubs and are often devout buddhists or taoists or yoginis with very strong ethics and unusually high empathy.”

    If I’m correct in assuming that you appreciate these traits in women (rather than just blowing them off as not-a-big-deal), thank you for posting this. It warms my heart to see this.

    I most certainly value them highly. Part of me is like this too although another half still loves to party quite hard and is very carefree which makes for an odd combination. For a few years I smoked pot everyday and sometimes did coke when going out. One (amongst several) of the types of women I am drawn to are women just like me which used to party quite hard but are now mainly like described above.

    I have noticed a very strong pattern from reading PUA boards and that is that women who are very, very health concious and consume very few stimluants like alcohol, cigarettes and junk food shit test very little and much less harshly. My theory is that shit testing is related to dopamine levels. Low dopamine is related to feeling insecure and hostile. Dominant alpha behavior stimulates dopamine in women. So when a womans dopamine is low she can shit test her man and get a surge of dopamine if her man passes the test. Thus she is temporarily back in balance.

    I don`t belive shit tests are bad at all. I think they are natural screening mechanisms for women. But I believe excessive and harsh shit testing is very negative and a sign of an imbalanced psyche. So if something makes a woman think her man is lacking in strength in one area important to her it is natural that it creates an insecurity that she atritubtes to him and tests him to see if she can relax. In sucha case she would expereince a dip in dopamine levels because of her mans perceived weakness and feel insecure for herself and potentailly hostile towards the perceived weakness and hope to calm herlsef and sooth the insecurity and possible hostility by checking to see if his strength is actually there.

    The problem comes when a womans dopamine levels are chronically low or going up and down all the time. In such cases the tests have zero to do with him and her natural need for security and 100% with her being unfit for a relationship. In our culture today I think there is an extreme amount of people with low and fluctuating dopamine levels. Seeking stimulants is a way to raise dopamine temporarily but using intense stimulants leads to dopamine falling sharply and even lower over the long term so more is needed. So seeking intense stimulants is both a symptom of low dopamine but can also create teh problem because the sharp intense increases in dopamine leads to a hangover with low dopamine which leads to icnreased craving etc. Modern western culture is extreme in its seeking of quick intense stimulus through fast food, fast fun, acohol, cigarettes, drugs, intense entertainment, fast sex etc. This in turn leads people becoming dysfunctional in their personal relationships because we use other people to pop up our dopamine.

    The extremely healthy women I describe aren`t necessarily more healthy than a womanin a very traditonal culture who has a healthy food culture, is not used to intense stimulus all the time, keeps in shape without thinking about it through her daily work and life and is emotionally healthy becaude of the combination of a tight social network and religious beliefs that provide her with deep meaning. Historically this has often been normal. So the rather unusual women I describe are basically just balanced people.

    I should add that although I find these women just as susceptible to good game as other women I do think they are less susceptible to darker versions of game. In part because they don`t have bizzare dopamine needs it is not so easy to hook them through dark game. Deeper self respect also increases the likelyhood that they won`t go after someone who treats them badly and greater self control of course leads them to be able to better control going after a man that would be bad for them. That does not reduce their desire for a strong man though and so good internalized game works very well.

    Some of the women in that kind of circles are even more fucked up than normal as people in need of healing gravitate towards them and it takes time to heal and in the meantime you are still messed up. Also any process leading to deep change is inherently dangerous and so can lead to a lot of strangeness. Just as many PUAs by radically changing themselves become weird so do many people who get into yoga, meditation, special diets etc. become very weird just because when you are radically altering your beliefs and how you operate you are vulnerable and susceptible to take the wrong steps.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      All the relationship science points to short-term mating being the preferred strategy of women with high sensitivity to, or reliance on, dopamine surges. It’s like any other addiction, and some people of both sexes are more prone than others.

      There will be exceptions of course – but I think this makes sense as a general rule, certainly wrt women who rack up high numbers of ONSs.

  • ExNewYorker

    “If even someone like you who can see some of the problems with today’s SMP and who hates the playa lifestyle nonetheless believes all kinds of exculpatory reasons why women are not really to blame for their plight … then imagine the rest of the messages those women are getting.”

    This is actually one of the most difficult parts of the red pill to swallow, that women are responsible for their own actions. It was my cad brother himself who pointed out to me that I, White Knight as I was, was actually taking away women’s agency by “blaming cads”, while he saw them as people responsible for their own actions, and equally capable of behaving stupidly, acting irresponsibly and committing immoral and evil acts.

    Anybody who is a guy knows what’s possible in the darkest recesses of our souls, of what bad acts we are capable of. However, when it comes to women, there’s very little widespread knowledge of the female dark side (or if it’s admitted, it’s justified in some other way). Case in point being the examples on this thread, where women are “victims” of cads, as opposed to pursuing what they really want.

    It’s for this reason why the manosphere puts the emphasis on “what women do, not what they say”…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      It was my cad brother himself who pointed out to me that I, White Knight as I was, was actually taking away women’s agency by “blaming cads”, while he saw them as people responsible for their own actions, and equally capable of behaving stupidly, acting irresponsibly and committing immoral and evil acts.

      That’s just a little too convenient for my taste. Sounds like a surefire method for assuaging one’s conscience. “I may be a liar and exploiting this woman to get sex, but women as a gender are capable of this and worse!”

  • Wudang

    Couple things: Manhattan dating market is the most brutal for women in the country. No doubt about it. As a guy, I love it, but I have really yet to find a non-promiscuous woman who does.

    Second: I’m not the 80% beta guy you want, but I have quite a few friends who are, and I can say from experience they’re never going to approach you, no matter how good you look, without some indication that you’re interested, be that an eye-fuck, a smile, anything (seriously, those aren’t asking that much). Hell, depending on how good you looked, I might not even approach you. You’re surrounded by other girls who are giving out IOIs in my direction. You’re a 9, they’re 8s. I’m almost always going after the easier, interested 8s than the aloof, could-spend-all-night-talking-and-get-nowhere 9.

    Most men won`t approach a woman in a bar, club or a public place EVER. They meet women through social circle, job, activities and every now and then accidentally come to talking with the girls behind them in line for the club or something like that. Furhtermore, most men and certainly most 80% beta men will be so nervous approaching and not really know how to do that smoothly that they won`t create attraction in the women they approach even when they would ahve created attraction in some of the women they approach if they had met them at a party where it was normal and easy to talk to everyone there.

  • yareallypua

    @Obsidian

    Well I hate to introduce logic and facts into a good emotional debate, but I also hate to see people just making stuff up lol

    @Peppermint

    “the only women it works on are toxic she-bitches.”

    “In bars and clubs about 50% of women are dressed in a fashion that says PFO to men”

    “about 10% of the women are dressed in a way that screams “If I don’t get picked up tonight I’m worthless and I will have to go home and cut myself”.”

    It SOUNDS like you have a healthy mindset and view of women, I can’t imagine why you had trouble with pickup.

    “If you woke up to the truth you would be both far more successful at picking women up by observing the clues that tell you a woman is available, but it will also tell you which women are worth spending time with outside of the bedroom.”

    Aw man, I guess I’ll have to tell my current girlfriend of 2 years who doesn’t drink or go to bars (she was at one for a friend’s birthday but only goes out once or twice a year to the bar) that it’s time for us to break it off since she’s just a slutty whore not worth spending any time with.

    I get that you’re angry and resentful because you couldn’t make pickup work for you, but a little kid not being able to ninja-kick a big street thug in the head and knock him out doesn’t mean martial arts don’t work.

    @Ted D

    “Instead, teach them how to improve themselves, and success with women will follow.”

    Yes, that’s why most of the game sites focus on self-improvement overall as well as game.

    http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?action=prevnext&offset=70&grp=alt.seduction.fast.lifestyle

    Here’s a link to 2100 posts about Lifestyle.

    http://www.pua-zone.com/forumdisplay.php?7-Lifestyle

    Plus hey, here’s another 2,700+

    Anyone want to read a section called “Monogamous Relationships”?

    http://www.pua-zone.com/forumdisplay.php?9-Monogamous-Relationships

    ’cause there’s 1000+ posts in there for ya.

    Man, if ONLY pickup artists would focus on stuff that isn’t “banging slutty bitches”. lol And again these are just two forums of MANY.

    @Obsidian
    “game is MOST effective on smart ladies-NOT the clubgoers. And my personal experience tallies very well with this.”

    Yep, one of my recent fuckbuddies works at a law firm.

    “its my impression that a lot of guys are out there applying what they *think* is game when in truth, they dont have the root fundamentals right”

    Yep. There are a lot of guys who don’t apply pickup right. It’s very similar to martial arts. Not everyone that comes out of a McDojo is a badass deadly ninja warrior. A lot of them are just guys with fancy belts and a bunch of skills they haven’t really tested or ever gotten to work. Then they get beat up in a fight and go “This self defense stuff is bullshit!!!111 It doesn’t work1!”

    Generally those guys were looking for pickup to fix them instead of looking to fix themselves. They blame external things for their failure because that’s easier than blaming themselves.

    Or people who are biased against game will say “Well some guys don’t have any success for a long time” like that’s a thing that’s relevant.

    Guess what: Learning pickup is HARD WORK. We’re talking about overhauling your entire life, from the ground up, in all categories from looks, health, attitude, etc. all the way up to actually hitting on girls. Hell, I spent a year just learning to complain about stuff less lol On top of all of that, like someone else in this thread said, all your friends, family, society in general, women around you, white knight guys around you, the women you approach, etc. will ALL try to hold you back and constantly barrage you with attempts to make you give up on improving yourself because they want to keep you labelled the way they currently have you labelled and will make you feel like a horrible person for trying to get out of that label.

    Guys like myself, the Mystery’s, Style’s, (probably Obsidian’s), etc. stuck it out through all of that and came out the other side successful. But a lot of guys don’t. BECAUSE IT’S HARD lol

    I suspect most women can’t relate to how difficult this stuff is for men because putting on a push-up bra is a little easier than what men have to go through to become attractive.

    “which in part, explains why ms walsh says what she does about me when it comes to game.”

    All part of the shame game lol I’ve seen a TON of bullying tactics on these comment sections, but I don’t really care. I’m not here to get into a big debate, I’m just clearing up the BS that’s being spouted about PUAs and pickup stuff since people are just making up “facts” like “that only works on these girls” and “PUAs only care about banging slutty whores” etc. that are generally made up by people who haven’t studied pickup and/or haven’t been successful at it.

    @Peppermint

    “If his tactics worked so well on intelligent well adjusted women why wasn’t he successful with doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other accomplished women?”

    I don’t know, let’s ask some of the other thousands of PUAs who’ve picked up doctors, lawyers, accountants, and other accomplished women. Have you read the 19,000+ Field Reports? Probably not, hey. That’s okay, let’s just make more stuff up.

    ““I’m going to a movie on friday, do you want to join me?” tends to work 100 times better than any of the tactics used by the PUA community.”

    Again you’re just making stuff up. Or do you have stats to back this up? No, because you’re just making emotionally charged attacks on something that you didn’t get to work. It’s okay, that’s a normal human reaction. I yell at the TV when I can’t pass a level in Super Mario too. But that doesn’t make my reaction justified or logical.

    @Ted D

    “But then, if that is the case, to me your goal isn’t finding and being with a great women, but learning how to do it over, and over, and over again.”

    Everyone has different motivations. Here’s a thread that talks about the difference between Thrill of the Hunt PUAs and Pleasure of Sex men:

    http://www.pua-zone.com/showthread.php?2541-Thrill-of-the-Hunt-men-vs-Pleasure-of-Sex-men

    You’ll find it clears up a lot of conflicting views in the community.

    “Why insist that ANY man that learns game will be successful.”

    Because that gets guys’ attention. Tyler from RSD said it best with something like: “Do you think ANYONE would sign up or even bother reading this stuff and improve their lives if instead of pitching it as “Get laid by any girl you want!!” we pitched it as “We can show you how with a ton of hard work, thousands of rejections and nights out being painfully emotionally abused and embarrassed by strangers, shamed on a regular basis in public, being snubbed by your friends and family, and being forced to confront and try to fix every horrible worthless pathetic aspect of yourself…you can make TINY incremental improvements, over the span of years you can slowly build up and start to have 30 second conversations with women, then minute long conversations, then 10 minute long ones, then hour long ones…THEN you can learn to even TOUCH them, and if you stick with it long enough, through years and years of slow painful experiences, you can get to a point where you actually become consistently good with them.”

    You know what book DOESN’T get attention? “How to lose 1lb a week over a long period of time with responsible eating habits and dedication to a healthy workout.” The book that gets attention is “The 4 Hour Body, with just 4 hours of work a month you can be a super-stud!!”

    But once the guy has been lured in, he starts learning how deep game really goes and THAT’S when he starts realizing he needs to improve his life overall as a man before he’s going to really be consistently successful with high quality women.

    @Obsidian again (man, this comment section is JUMPIN lol, I bet there’ll be 50 more posts before I even post this)

    “There IS no game in fact, WITHOUT personal growth and self improvement.”

    Yep. A lot of guys want to skip the personal growth and self improvement stuff. “Just gimme the magic pill!!!!111″ And then it doesn’t work for them and they become anti-game.

    “So long as a gamesman is honest and upfront, he is committing no crime in wanting sex as a first principle in a relationship”

    Yep. You can get to know a girl after you guys have sex. My current LTR started with sex on the first night. My previous LTR (about 2 years, but I had to move away for life reasons) was a solid 2 months before we had sex.

    A lot of people think “oh you can’t build a solid relationship if you have sex the first night” but that’s just not the case. That’s a biased view based on “sex is dirty and evil” beliefs instead of actual cold hard data. There are TONS of PUAs in LTRs, mLTRs, oLTRs, marriages, etc. Hell, TylerDurden and his LTR of 6+ years recently had 2 kids.

    @Peppermint

    “It is my opinion that game is (mostly) a crutch that guys use to cover up their insecurities”

    Your opinion is wrong and based on your own faulty experiences. If I get into martial arts because I want to beat people up, that’s my own bad decision…it doesn’t mean martial arts classes don’t try to teach you to be humble and use restraint.

    “For many guys who find their confidence they depend on the tactics of game less and less never (really) see the problems with game, and think that women are responding to them based on game rather than their self confidence and self respect.”

    You’re just making stuff up again. Why do you do this? It doesn’t help your argument at all because anyone who does even the most basic research into pickup can see that you’re clearly off-base and again just emotionally reacting to something you had a bad experience with.

    You can’t say stuff like “game is a crutch guys use to cover up their insecurities” when I can link you to videos, articles, threads, etc. from the PUA community that talk specifically about how game shouldn’t be used to just cover up insecurities and that men should make deeper changes to their identity instead of surface level changes.

    I think my biggest issue with Manosphere blogs like this is that everyone casts a bunch of baseless judgements about pickup without doing any research into current PUA tech. Then everyone else, who hasn’t done any actual research, pats them on the back and everyone high-fives eachother about how horrible PUAs are.

    @Ted D

    “And I’ve never once claimed to know much about “game” as proposed by those of which we do not speak on HUS”

    I’m not sure you should be proud of not knowing what you’re discussing…like, seriously man.

    “guess what, new guys finding the ‘sphere aren’t seeing any of that up front.”

    That’s the Manosphere’s fault. In the PUA-sphere we stress that all over the place. RSD is the best example of very in-your-face “you will have to improve yourself, not just learn some routines, to succeed” information, but other companies have followed their lead.

    But god forbid anyone view RSD’s massive front page with dozens of articles and videos discussing all this, before going off on rants attacking PUAs based on incorrect info.

    Man, I’m just gonna’ submit this, there are SO many freaking comments lol I’m glad you guys like discussing this stuff, it’s good for gender relations in general, I just wish more people would do more current research before stating their opinions is all.

  • Ramble

    What you listed is not dark, however, what I listed were examples of Dark Game.

    Liza, like I said, “I put all of those things in quotes because they can be defined and understood in so many different ways.”

    Some evil bastard could pass her shit tests by using “Dark Game”.

    He could tease her in a way that he sees as “playful”.

    (This next one is easy) He could easily be dominant by using “Dark Game”.

    It all depends on how you define these things.

  • Wudang

    “I believe that Game (not Dark Game) when utilized by a decent/”beta” guy just looking to improve his confidence is perfectly find. But using tactics like; instilling fear, keeping her off balance, mean-spirited negs and other damaging methods involving mind games (psychological shit) can be very damaging to a woman in a long-term relationship or marriage.

    I believe that this is the route many omegas and gammas take when applying game. Not good.”

    http://www.socialcoach.com/blog/category/our-advice/

    http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/60s-anti-manifesto-must-read-vt72952.html?highlight=

    charismaarts.com

    Nasvilleplayer

    Pookie (read the book of pook, its funny and wise)

    authentic man programme (utter brilliance)

    Zan (modern day quiviliant of Cassanove and Don Juan and he is self taught/a natural not taught by PUAs and his game is almost entirely inner game based)

    These are all great teachers of game that aren`t dark at all. Most of it is also very natural or easily inernalized and not at all depdendent on routines or very clear structures to game. They all aim to have the man feel what he should be feeling in order for game to happen quite naturally. The difference between someone practicing any of the above and someone practicing routine based highly structured game with harsh negs is like night and day.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      Why is it that guys like the ones you link to are not generally the go-to manosphere blogs? Obisidian is scrupulous about Jedi vs. Sith Game, but the ‘sphere is definitely dominated by Dark types, especially lately. Is it because they focus on PUA for men rather than broader discussions? Young men ask me all the time for blog recommendations, and to be honest, it seems lame to be pointing 20 yo guys to Married Man Sex Life. Maybe I should make a list from your comment. I do not want to point anyone to “dark” tactics.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I can tell you that never once in my life have I felt the slightest tingle for dominant, callous, insensitive, asshole, cocky behavior. Not. One.”

    You’ve admitted to 3 or 4 ONS with some alpha dudes (fighter pilot?), and your husband even ragged on you a bit. Were they not dominant? Remember, what we men often think of “asshole” might not match what you. I think a while back I described the mismatch in calibration of such terms. Through my old beta lens and hearing your stories, those guys *were* cocky assholes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Through my old beta lens and hearing your stories, those guys *were* cocky assholes.

      Busted. That was a different time, and those guys were not particularly cocky, but I bet they would be today. There was an Israeli fighter pilot, but he was very respectful and courteous. Another guy was a total geek. The third guy was from Mexico City. He was probably macho but honestly, I went home with him from a party and never spoke to him again, so IDK. He was not cocky at the party, more pedestalizing to tell you the truth, though quite handsome.

      In 1981, one didn’t see the hypergamy on display today. There were ONSs, but they were more artful – more seduction, less alcohol – than most hookups today. In a weird way, there was some semblance of courtship in them.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    At the risk of ruining a good thing i think what really bothers you and other women about the “hb10″ aspect of game is YOURE NOT THAT HB10. Remember rwc, brutal, bluntforce honesty is job #1 with me. More women can see themselves-real or perceived-in the catergories wudang mentioned. While that is wholly understandable we must be brutally honest about what is really going on here. That doesnt mean that what wudang said doesnt hold water at all-far from it. Just saying that the violent reaction from so many ladies about the “hotchick” factor is really more about them not measuring up than anything else.

    As for the beta guys not stepping up i honestly question whether you and women in general really understand what is going on here-please review my “field reports” of various venues in nyc recently. As i said i attened concerts where raphael siddiq and eric roberson were playing-sistas were plentiful and wanted brothas to approach-and absolutely nothing happened. These are venues that cater to a more upscale crowd and skew older (30+); still, nothing.

    Ive argued that this is the unintended consequence(s) of feminism-that if youre the wrong guy and you approach a woman, you could be locked up, beat up, or thrown out. Simply put, the costs outweigh the bennies for too many guys. All that are left are the very knuckleheads women drop the panties for, then bawl it all out at places like madame noire, vsb, or on the white side, jezebel and feministe. They never think about the bigger picture, for the reasons f roger devlin has noted. Im not trying to be conspiratorial here-and the very fact that im a strong advocate of game says it all about my view of the need for men to improve themselves-but we have to call a spade a spade here. Conditions-informed by feminism-are conspiring to the point that only the a**holes can and will approach. And only women can turn this around. Problem with that is, they get a clue until theyve got two and three baby daddies and are facing down a midlife crisis.

    A final point. Blogger chuck ross of glpiggy recently posted up a map of the male to female ratio in nyc-its something anyone who has an interest in human mating needs to see. The ratios are out of this world-and ill take it one step further…

    …its easily twice if not three times worse IF YOURE A BLACK WOMAN. Indeed nyc is one of the worst places to find a man to get married if youre a sista. Why?

    Because not only are you competing against other sistas, but youre also competing against latinas, asian gals and white women-and again, i think we know who wins amongst brothas with options on that score. In fact i know a guy in nyc whose older than me and regular holds court with the chicas who are half his age in the various nitespots up there. Simply put, nyc is a bad deal if youre a sista.

    O.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    Do intelligent girls like intelligent, and charismatic, guys?

    Ramble,

    Game, for me, is beneficial to the extent that it could help some decent guy get over his fear of approaching to strike up a converstion with a woman he is interested in with worrying about the outcome.

  • Herb

    @Ramble

    (This next one is easy) He could easily be dominant by using “Dark Game”.

    And some people can find Dark Game fun:

    Emotional Masochism: It’s *supposed* to hurt is a class at SELF this weekend.

  • http://thedatingnook.com Liza207

    These are all great teachers of game that aren`t dark at all. Most of it is also very natural or easily inernalized and not at all depdendent on routines or very clear structures to game. They all aim to have the man feel what he should be feeling in order for game to happen quite naturally. The difference between someone practicing any of the above and someone practicing routine based highly structured game with harsh negs is like night and day.
    —-
    I knew there was a difference in Game methods–like night and day.

  • Ramble

    Game, for me, is beneficial to the extent that it could help some decent guy get over his fear of approaching to strike up a converstion with a woman he is interested in with worrying about the outcome.

    That was pretty interesting how you didn’t even come close to answering the question.

    So, I am going to assume that you DO think that smart girls go for smart, and charismatic, guys.

  • yareallypua

    @Obsidian
    “Oh the vast majority of guys in lairs worldwide arent looking to be mack daddys; theyre looking for a girlfriend.”

    Yep. I got into this because I just wanted to find someone to cuddle with and care about me and someone to hold hands while we watch DVDs on a quiet night in.

    Once I got in though and realized how much fun it is to meet and date new girls, that changed lol Someday I might settle down again, but my late 20s early 30s has been very fun. :)

    “A lot of that is, in my view, due to the very bitter attitudes that are found in mra spaces”

    Ya, PUAs aren’t anywhere NEAR as bitter or negative as MRAs. When I first found the Manosphere I was like “wow, these guys HATE the world” lol It’s no wonder a lot of them don’t have success with women even if they learn some game…there’s SO much negative wiring inside their head that they’d have to undo before they could even shed the bitter hate that oozes out of them.

    “in fact the one time a guy tried to bring negativity he was swiftly booted out of the venue where a speaker was brought in to discuss the finer points of day game and most importantly, inner game. They were there to help each other.”

    Yep. When PUAs challenged eachother’s ideas back in the day, it wasn’t out of “bullshit, you’re a liar, GTFO you loser” it was out of “okay that’s a crazy idea, let’s test it thoroughly to make sure your experience wasn’t a fluke!”

    Again I don’t think most people have ever been a part of a movement this big, this supportive, and that expanded this fast. It really is amazing, like when a jillion redditer’s combine to raise money for some orphan kid or whatever. Human potential when we work together is epic.

    @Liza207

    “I have said time and time again that feminism has been very responsible for the feminization of American men. Hell, yes, women are partially responsible.”

    Ya, you guys created us lol Believe me, we all get into the game WISHING we could just go up to girls and say “Hi, I think you’re really pretty and would love to get to know you, would you like to go on a date sometime?” But that’s not what works. Game is simply a reaction to a seemingly unwinnable situation. We kept ending up getting Check-Mated until we started figuring out how to get out of Check and turn the game around.

    @Escoffier

    “Game only works to the extent that women let it.”

    A concept that people have trouble with is that WAY more women are receptive to sex than people realize. Even those women don’t realize they’re receptive to it a lot of the time. That’s why to a woman sex “just happened”. If approached right, the shy quiet good-girl librarian friend you know is just as likely to put out on the first date as the slutty bar-star up on the speaker in a mini-skirt.

    Of course women always say “none of MY friends are like that” the same way a mom says “My little Johnny would NEVER bully someone at school!”, but that’s why PUAs don’t listen to women lol

    “Sure, they often have regrets after.”

    Nah. That’s a myth too. A good PUA who manages Buyer’s Remorse properly ensures that a woman feels good about their experience. You wouldn’t be able to find a girl I’ve slept with who didn’t think fondly of me. Ironically it’s naturals who don’t learn actual PUA game who do the most damage, because they just pump & dump and don’t care about making sure the girl feels good about what happened. That’s why a lot of naturals have long lists of girls who hate them lol

    But you’d all know this if you regularly hung out with them.

    @Herb

    “No, because swallowing the red pill doesn’t change the fact that being the kind of man you want openly on a regular basis is like running straight into machine gun fire.”

    Ya, that’s part of why the PUA community spawned. There was a point at the start where it was basically just ONE forum. That’s it. There weren’t a hundred blogs or articles everywhere or different teachers. There was one gathering place where everyone went to discuss and figure this stuff out and more importantly to support eachother because the ENTIRE rest of society would try to discourage and shame them for even daring to LOOK at the red pill let alone swallow and embrace it.

    @Wudang
    “Fastseduction has historically been the most important PUA board but has lost the significance it once had.”

    Yep, in fact the board doesn’t even work half the time anymore because it was bought by (I believe) Gambler and he’s just let it go to hell. Most of the crowd there has moved onto http://www.fasterseduction.com/ But even then, now that game is more widespread, there are like a dozen active/popular boards with less traffic rather than one central place.

    I only link to FS because I don’t want to spend all day hunting down links when I know no one here will even bother following them lol As evidenced by the “oh I see you have 19,000 Field Reports but I know a few ex-puas who don’t like game anymore, so that nullifies all of that data” responses.

    “I have read lots of field reports or threads asking advice by men who are with an early twenties virgin”

    My first GF was a late 20s virgin who had a near-rape experience when she was younger that made her terrified of even being alone with a man, let alone having sex. It took 3 months or so of helping her work through her fear of men and intimacy (she was worth it) before we had sex. We dated for 2 years-ish before I had to move away. She wasn’t exactly a slutty bar star whore-bag spreading her legs for everything with a penis.

    “Even if a man restricts himself to women who will have sex on the 3rd or 4th date that pool includes a large number of not very slutty women.”

    A lot of girls I’ve been with always wait till the 3rd+ date to put out with guys, but with me they’ll put out on the first date. It’s not because they’re slutty whores, it’s because through game I’ve learned how to 1) demonstrate that I’m an awesome guy worth banging, 2) turn them on quickly and escalate rapidly, and 3) make it a fun experience where they feel free to open up that way to me and know I won’t judge them for it.

    Whereas other guys suck and it takes her 3+ dates to figure out if he’s worth sleeping with.

    “He is NOT rare amongst PUAs in saying this, I have read the same types of claims a million times on PUA boards. But of course the all knowing commentators here of course know that PUAs only go after club sluts and think they are great relationship material.”

    Awesome. I heart you. lol Like I say if people would do the very basic minimal research on pickup and PUA lifestyle before commenting there would be a whole lot more progress in these comment sections.

    “PUAs tend to do A LOT of work screening for women who are relationship material when they actually want a serious relationship and not just members of their harem. Wether or not the woman has a healthy self esteem is seen as key and screened healvily for.”

    Yep. Every PUA runs into a few Low Self-Esteem girls and usually they realize 1) wow, a LOT of women around me have LSE and I had no idea because I didn’t even know what it looked like and because my self-esteem was so low I just assumed they all had HSE, and 2) this is NOT something I want in my life long-term…for a fuck or two, that’s fine, but for more than that I’m making sure this girl isn’t LSE

    “Generally the relationships appear to be have extremely low levels of drama, very much sex and be very happy compared to what you seen amongst the general poppulation.”

    I like how TylerDurden (just had 2 kids with his GF of 6+ years) put it: “People ask me how do I make my relationship last, how did I do it? Well I screened for the right girl with the exact characteristics and personality I want out of thousands of girls I’ve met. OF COURSE it’s a good relationship” lol

    A problem women tend to not understand and that most Nice Guys with little experience with women are in denial about, is that most men don’t even KNOW what they want. When I started out I wanted a nice shy quiet submissive girl. Now, having met thousands of women and seeing what type of women I actually have chemistry with and enjoy being around and which personality traits I do and don’t like in girls, I actually like smart witty out-going social girls who can zing me every now and then with a good burn and keep me on my toes. I had NO idea back when I started because I had no reference experience. Most guys who’ve only dated less than 5 girls are the same, but they don’t know it just like I didn’t and would deny it just like I did.

    Awesome post in general Wudang. Glad to see someone else who’s actually been around the community in here lol

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidan

    I’m not a hot blonde. My interest isn’t in men who do not want me because I am not an HB10, a 747, B10 bomber or whatever the current acronym is. Thanks for stating the obvious, as if I am not aware of it. Yes, many women get jealous when the cads do not pursue them. That is a fact that isn’t related to my posts or actions. As for brual truth…sometimes things, like caddery, are just silly. Certain sub categories of games and tricks are silly. Presenting them with a righteous veneer is a fun idea, but will be chuckled at. No need to jab at the chuckler if your true concern is your mission, O.

    @Wudang
    “I have noticed a very strong pattern from reading PUA boards and that is that women who are very, very health concious and consume very few stimluants like alcohol, cigarettes and junk food shit test very little and much less harshly.”

    This is fascinating. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

    That’s intriguing

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    While we’re kinda sorta on the topic, allow me to toss yet another napalm ether bomb into the discussion pot…

    Question: do black men, in aggregate now, have *lower* sexual standards, than men of other races?

    Now, many of you are no stranger to the manosphere; therefore, you are as aware of the frequent discussions that take place about black folk there.

    One of the oft-repeated themes is, that black men will pretty much screw anything due to having lower standards in comparison to white, asian men etc.

    I am asking, in all seriousness, real rap: is. That. True?

    You see, as a lifelong brotha, ill go on record in saying that yes, i do think thats true.

    And i think i have at least one theory why.

    Ok several theories, but ill float one here.

    I think black men as a group are acutely aware of their lack of status and resources to bring to ltrs; this informs their mating decisions and patterns. No matter how progressive we think we are, in the end men are still very much judged by what, if any, resources they can bring to the table of a ltr/marriage-and thats just the way WOMEN like and prefer it. Yes, the very same women who are fully self supporting, highly educated, you name it-they expect their men to carry their weight and then some. Right or wrong, good or bad, this is what women expect-and sistas are no exception. Indeed, where else can a song with the chorus of “aint nothin goin on but the rent/you got have a j-o-b if you wanna be with me” in america, but the black community?

    And to be sure, the brothas aint to be outdone; indeed, an entire narrative has cropped up around the idea of the “gold digger”-in fact, there was a song by kanye west, a huge hit, that was entitled just that. The point is, that both black men and women know just how utterly important this issue of a man bringing resources to the bargaining table is; and brothas as a group, have adapted.

    Theyve opted for the short term mating strategy.

    This means a much less focus on standards of beauty for example. Obesity rates in black america, especially for women and kids, are the highest ib the country. Moreover, brothas have no problem “hitting” that sista with the dime booty but the 1 face-and justifies it by saying “im not gonna wife her up!”. Women who are more notably comely in the face can bargain for a higher price on the open sexual market, ie she can secure ltr investment.

    I think im onto something here. And im giving everyone permission to be politically incorrect; no ones gonna vilify you as a “racist” for noticing outloud what we all whisper about behind closed doors.

    Comments?

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    My comment is finally out of moderation.

    You can go read it now, along with everyone else who cares.

    It’s comment #442 on page 3 of the comments.

  • Joe

    Obs., in conjunction with your last comment, I have to ask a related question.

    Are you familiar with the music of Hootie & The Blowfish and their lead singer and front man Darius Rucker? Sure you are. From my POV, their music (at least, the stuff from Cracked Rear View Mirror is mainstream (read, “white”) pop-rock from the ’90s. It’s great stuff.

    Rucker often sings about LTRs and their difficulties with an unparalleled passion and a voice that’s up there with the best. Sometimes I think he speaks for many of us who are Beta’s verging on Alphas. He’s also a black man. And a black man singing about LTRs is a rarity in pop-music, at least since Stevie Wonder stopped being “Little”.

    The question is, then, is he an exception in your mind or is the rarity of his message caused by our (my) lack of perception (once you account for the machinations of the musics-biz)?

  • Ramble

    Aside from that, I think in this era it’s not really possible to offend women’s “sensibilities.”

    I dunno. I think it is quite easy to offend them.

    Just think of Belitta. She seems like a likable, modern and smart girl, but you could easily see a group of otherwise well meaning guys say something that might inadvertently cut her to the bone.

  • yareallypua

    @Ted D

    “I just honestly don’t know how much “dark game” is going on compared to what the ‘sphere wants us to believe.”

    There’s not that much going on. Really, “dark game” and “light game” or whatever you want to call it are made up Manosphere terms. Traditional PUA doesn’t have a distinction because we just call a pencil a pencil, not “a writing pencil” and “a stabbing pencil”.

    The TEACHINGS of what you guys call “dark game” are out there, if a guy DOES want to get into the dark side of it all, because PUAs broke down EVERYTHING about social interactions, good and bad. But most guys are just nice dudes looking to figure out why they’re still virgins at 25 years old or why their marriage went to shit, etc. They’re not interested in becoming evil assholes doing horrible things.

    I do and have done a lot of stuff that you guys would consider EXTREMELY “dark game”, but there are a lot more grey areas and nuances to it than just “light” and “dark”. That’s why we don’t have that distinction in the PUA community. It’s trying to summarize a bunch of really complicated stuff into too-simple labels. That’s fine on the Manosphere since you guys are all discussing “Game Lite” anyway, but it’s too simplified for any REAL discussion or progress which is what PUAs are focused on.

    @Ted D
    “I firmly believe that the proper thing to do when a flaw is found in a system is fix it, not exploit it.”

    That’s not our job. That’s Susan’s job lol I’m not going to be able to convince millions of women to rewire themselves and delve deep into introspection and self-analysis and start appreciating “Nice Guys”. I’m just a squirrel trying to get a nut lol

    “We are giving young men guns and knives without verifying their moral and ethic standing.”

    Morals and ethics are arbitrary. You probably do stuff that other people (like a hardcore Mormon, say) would find immoral or unethical. Why is your opinion of what’s right/wrong and your judgement of who has good/bad standing the one we should listen to?

    This is a discussion PUAs have had a bunch of times lol We hope people have the best of intentions but we can’t force them to.

    “but I have a very strong moral code built from religious teachings.”

    How’s that working out for you? Are you happy and satisfied with your relationships? If you are, then keep it up. But you probably aren’t, that’s why you’re on all these blogs. You’re going to just sit around arguing in these discussions for the next 10+ years because you want to solve something that you won’t let yourself solve. The answer is very clear and obvious and right in front of you and a bunch of people have said it. But it conflicts with your world view so you can’t accept it.

    You should either change your world view or quit reading these blogs, you’ll be much happier with life either way. But then some people are mentally masochistic, that’s why we like doing crossword puzzles after all. :)

    “They know something is wrong with sleeping around but many do it anyway.”

    I’ve been banging an engaged girl behind her fiance’s back. She has no guilt about it whatsoever but if you ever asked her about her sexual history do you think I would come up? lol hell no. Her friends and family and fiance have no idea what she’s gotten up to and if you met her you would think she was an innocent angel just like everyone else. She’s the exact person you’d say “my friend would NEVER do that! She’s not that kind of girl!”

    But no one here is going to be able to understand how common this is because it punches their world view in the face lol Red pill is hard to swallow and all that.

    “But using tactics like; instilling fear, keeping her off balance, mean-spirited negs and other damaging methods involving mind games (psychological shit) can be very damaging to a woman in a long-term relationship or marriage.”

    Nah, it’s all stuff that 1) Naturally attractive men have been subconsciously doing since the dawn of time, and 2) Women subconsciously do to men. The only reason it terrifies you is because now men are CONSCIOUSLY applying it, as a specific tactic expecting a specific result. It would be like learning that rain isn’t random, that the government is specifically making rain happy in specific places and controlling it all on purpose with a goal in mind. Suddenly the rain you enjoyed running around in has become some kind of scary “weapon” in your mind.

    A lot of women will say “My guy isn’t like that at ALL!!” but guaranteed if I spent a week observing their relationship I could point out a ton of game concepts being subconsciously applied.

    “I’ve seen numerous posts where a PUA type suggests that for man to truly understand game and women, he should bang tons of women. Does that seem like a moral or ethical thing to suggest?”

    Not if you 1) have very little experience with women and don’t realize that “banging tons of women” means spending tons of time interacting with them, learning about them, getting to know them as people, learning about yourself, experiencing human interaction and emotion, etc. and 2) have been corrupted by your religion to believe that sex is “wrong” and “shameful”.

    “The thing is, anytime I say that Game only works on dumb sluts with emotional issues. I keep getting “no, it does not, it works best on intelligent high quality women” or some other nonsense.”

    lol no that’s not what you keep getting. What you keep getting is “it works best on intelligent high quality women”. No one is denying that game works on dumb sluts with emotional issues too. You don’t have to lie, come on now. :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    I dont prefer blondes.

    Nor do i coddle anyone when it comes to the truth. And the truth is, that most women who viscerally react to the “hot babe” aspect of game, do so because they themselves dont have the goods. Period, end of.

    I wouldnt consider myself a “cad” and even if i were it wouldnt change anything ive said. Relax. :)

    If i said the same thing only aimed at a guy about say his lack of height or whatever, would you have come outta the woodwork with such a response? The odds dont favor it. Of course we all know, or should know, why that is.

    At any rate ive got up a new question for you to consider, since the last one about black women not selecting for intelligence in their men was just a weebit much for ya; enjoy! :)

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ramble (i think?):
    I think the fact that the vast majority of black folk wouldnt know who rucker was if he walked up to them and sucker punched them in broad daylight, tells you all you need to know as to the answer to your question.

    Next question? ;)

    O.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I think Roissy asserts that the reason that day game is harder is not merely that it’s a different population of women. After all, it’s not entirely a different cohort. Women who go to bars also have to live their daily lives. Though of course many women who never go to bars will be on the street during the day.

    Anyway, the fundamental reason he says it’s different–and harder–is that no matter which kind of woman, she is not putting herself out there to be approached as she is in a bar. She has a totally different mindset on the street during the day. Plus, she hasn’t been drinking.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Plus, she hasn’t been drinking.

      Not exactly an endorsement of Game.

  • yareallypua

    @Escoffier
    “Only a dumb slut would sleep with you on the first night”

    You have a Madonna/Whore complex.

    @Wudang
    “I don`t belive shit tests are bad at all. I think they are natural screening mechanisms for women.”

    Yep. Men who get frustrated by shit-tests and women who deny that they do them are both people who don’t really understand the concept of a shit-test and why it exists and how it’s not actually a bad thing. But this’d get into pretty deep territory and I’m skeptical anyone slagging on PUA stuff in this comment section really cares about actually understanding this concept.

    When a girl sees that SHE, a silly little girl, can affect a man’s state, get him to change his world-view or opinions, shatter his confidence, make him second-guess himself, deter him from achieving what he wants, etc. with a simple little comment in a bar, how is she supposed to trust him to be a man and handle the rest of the world when shit hits the fan in their relationship?

    Again the concept goes waaaaay deeper than that. If anyone’s interested, I can link to thousands of posts by PUAs discussing it just like I can for most of these concepts lol

    @Wudang
    “Most men won`t approach a woman in a bar, club or a public place EVER. They meet women through social circle, job, activities and every now and then accidentally come to talking with the girls behind them in line for the club or something like that.”

    Yep.

    @Obsidian
    “At the risk of ruining a good thing i think what really bothers you and other women about the “hb10″ aspect of game is YOURE NOT THAT HB10.”

    lololol

    Elephant in the room, but ya. Most girls who go around saying “game would never work on me” are average at best. Same with when they say “that would never work on my friend”…it’s like newsflash, your friend isn’t that great a catch! You can’t see that because she’s your friend, but it’s very clear to someone who knows women lol

    A good PUAs first thought when they hear an average girl saying game won’t work on them is “umm that’s fine with me? ’cause it works on that smoking hot 10/10 over there so…(P.S. yes, it does work on you, I just don’t want to use it on you because ew)”

    But the backlash if you say this is pretty extreme. Every girl is a 10/10, haven’t you ever watched a Disney movie or talked to anyone ever in society ever in your life? :)

    “Just saying that the violent reaction from so many ladies about the “hotchick” factor is really more about them not measuring up than anything else.”

    lol the worst are the girls who are like “whatever, that’s stupid, men who like sex are pigs, and girls who put out on the first date are just slutty bar whores with no self esteem. No PUA could get ME.” Well guess what, we don’t WANT you, you’re a very negative person lol 10/10s aren’t talking smack about the people around them because part of being a 10 is having a good personality. :)

    “Ive argued that this is the unintended consequence(s) of feminism-that if youre the wrong guy and you approach a woman, you could be locked up, beat up, or thrown out.”

    Yep. http://www.cotwa.info/2012/06/bygones-be-bygones-unspeakable.html – What average guy is gonna’ approach a girl after hearing about stuff like this?

    @yareallypua
    God you’re handsome, I totally want to bang you.

    Oops, looks like I finally caught up to my own posts. woohoo!! Totally not going to be writing here after today, this is way too time consuming lol But props to Susan for running such a popular blog. I’m scared to even reload the page once I post this because I know there’ll be like 30 more replies to respond to lol

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Ok i was finally able to read your response that was caught in moderation. Too bad it wasnt worth the wait.

    As mulechewingbriars has made clear, there is scant media publication evidence from outlets that cater to black men that they do indeed go ape doo-doo over sistas dating white guys; that would be the one to one analog to the regular writing features of essence.

    Point one.

    Nor have you come up with a male version of jill scott taking his bemoaning to the media about such an issue. All youve offered is some comments from a hip hop chat board, one brotha blogger and some youtube videos. Hmm.

    Point. Two.

    Moreover, thras kinda, well, thrashed your points about the room with what by now be some common knowledge data points-not that you would have noticed. Perhaps your response to him is in moderation too?

    Point. Three.

    Far from “checkmate” my dear ive even got others to step to your spurious assertions with clear data they can see with their own eyes. Perhaps if youre as smart as youd like to believe, youd call it a day and ride off into the sunset now.

    Oh-my questions have nothing at all to do with me, no matter how badly you want them to. Like i said, stick to being an artisan; debate doesnt suit you.

    But you can if you like, holla back…

    ;)

    O.

  • Joe

    @Obs. I caught your response to my (not Ramble’s) question.
    And yes, it does tell me everything I need to know! ;)

  • yareallypua

    @Susan
    “Wait, didn’t Style do all his learning and practicing of Game in clubs?”

    No. Those guys did their learning and practicing EVERYWHERE. There’s even a story off the top of my head where he met a supermodel or something at a Staples. But in case you don’t believe me and since you probably don’t want to re-read The Game again:

    http://www.fastseduction.com/archives/

    There’s a link to 472 articles, Field Reports, etc. by Style. You’ll read them all, I’m sure, before making stuff like that up again, right? :)

    “Game can work anywhere, on any kind of woman, IMO. But I don’t think Style proved that, and I don’t believe it’s true of PUA.”

    You can think whatever you like. Some people believe in Scientology. But as a journalist who cares about really getting to the bottom of this whole gender dynamics thing, I’m sure you’d agree you should make sure you’ve done your research first. :)

    “Anyway, the fundamental reason he says it’s different–and harder–is that no matter which kind of woman, she is not putting herself out there to be approached as she is in a bar. She has a totally different mindset on the street during the day. Plus, she hasn’t been drinking.”

    The only difference between Day and Night game is whether the sun is out. You have to be extremely advanced/experienced to run Day game the same way you run Night game but it’s entirely do-able. For the most part though, while you’re learning you just want to tone down the kino a bit and that has more to do with not triggering ASD from public judgement and social pressure that kino introduces. Otherwise though, it’s the same. A lot of the difficulties guys have with Day game are internal and have to do with the guy not being able to hold his state or keep his momentum going the way he can in a nightclub (ie – spending 20 min looking for a hot girl to approach in the day time VS turning around and being surrounded by a dozen girls to approach in a nightclub).

    I can provide links and videos backing all this up if you like. :) Or everyone could save me the effort and just find them for themselves by researching what they’re discussing before they discuss it with such adamant opinions based on their own biases lol

    I recommend starting with watching the videos at http://www.rsdnation.com/articles/all

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Seriously dude, you are arguing in drunk circles.

    The debate was never about who complains most with regards to interracial dating in the black community. The sole point that I was trying to prove was that there are indeed black men out there who don’t like seeing black women with white men. That was the entire argument.

    I provided examples of people discussing their own experiences with the subject. You wanted proof that such incidences occurred outside of my scope of things. I gave them to you.

    You keep feebly trying to change the goal posts of the discussion, and it’s pathetic. Let’s keep the debate on the original topic at hand.

    Also, Thras’s point wasn’t in the least bit connected to my point. My claim was that white male/black female couples face less overall scrutiny than white female/black male couples. I never claimed, not even once, that the black male/ white female pairing was less common than the white male/ black female pairing. Seriously, go back and read my posts.

    It’s starting to feel like I’m talking to a wall here, honestly.

    Since I can’t engage in a coherent discussion with you, I’ll turn to someone else.

    Susan Walsh, what do you feel about the links I provided and do you think they are sufficient enough to provide some evidence that there are black men out there who bemoan black women dating white men?

  • yareallypua

    “There’s even a story off the top of my head where he met a supermodel or something at a Staples.”

    Sorry, to clarify I mean that’s a story FROM the book The Game, not just a random story. ie – you’ve read this story and don’t remember it. :)

    PUAs approach anywhere, anytime. That’s kind of the point of learning pickup, so that when you see a girl you’re attracted to you can approach her and consistently close.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Alias
    This is not aimed to you but… WHAT IN THE FUCKING WORLD WAS THAT FUCKING MAN TALKING ABOUT?!!!! Not black heroes statues? We have Lemba (slave that freed others slaves) and Francisco del Rosario Sanchez (independent father) less than 10 miles of Columbus. The first time I called myself black in front of a very dark sista she barely let me walk out of the place with my head still attached to my body, “we cannot call ourselves black in front of pure blacks either” the whole “being considered black” varies a lot the sistas that do my hair also tell me “You are not black you are Dominican, don’t say you are black” here so “What I’m supposed to say? I’m screw either way if I don’t say black they assume I’m ashamed or something…” and the music they were dancing at the beginning was Son not Merengue.
    The guy he was talking to that works for ministry of culture I know him, but there has been a “If we don’t want to look racist we should identify with the black people” movement for a while with varies levels of success, depending on the individual is a bit like the Taino movement, based in few things and a very small level of genetic legacy, Dominicans love to imitate foreigners like that. They also picked the black maid cleaning the floor. Do you know how many blonds works as maids in my country? Like tons.
    Is about money if you are born in Capotillo and get pregnant at 12 or join a gang no level of white skin will get you anywhere. Also the whole Spain is the mother land our culture has more Spaniard culture than AA (really the national dish descendent from Spaniard culture, like dress and language you are going to find few African things aside from Vuduu religion that became a parallel underground religion in my country that was pretty much catholicism with animism, and many people practice both without even noticing. I myself descent from so called brujos, in reality many of them just learned enough “rituals” to con ignorant people which is part of our denial of Vuduu as a legitimate religion most of the brujos was just con artists with colorful techniques ) Spaniards were the ones running the schools and convents so they thaugth Spaniard culture we have really only the genetic legacy from the slaves they were assimilated in my country with Spaniards. I mean Trujillo was racist and hated Haitians and there is a lot of bad blood among us but is more complicated than just skin color, there was the culture and language barrier no to mention the religion … Someone mentioned that the documentary makes the country looks like a comic book, so fucking true. So fucking mad right now. Not at you, honey just confirmation bias being used as “science” and cherry picking to proof something makes me mad.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    The one huge drawback to “the game” is that it doesnt have an index!-so i cant find the exact quote for you right now. As soon as i do ill post it up.

    But i maintain what ive said-its much harder to run certain kinds of game in club settings and the kinds of women in them and this is precisely what style said. That tallies with my own experience.

    O.

  • Ramble

    For the record, Peter Dinklage as Tyrion in Game of Thrones is one of the most alpha guys ever.

    Have you ever seen The Station Agent? It is not a great movie, but quite good.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Have you ever seen The Station Agent? It is not a great movie, but quite good.

      I never have. I recall quite a fuss was made about him then. If you recommend it, I’ll put it on my Netflix queue.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    You know what? Since I’m feeling generous today, I’ll do you a solid by refreshing your memory a bit.

    This was one of your comments:

    The only real resistence in black america to any form of ir dating and the like has always come from sistas and thats true to this day; google up jill scott for more on this point.

    Notice how you said the only real resistance has always come from black women.

    My response to you was as follows.

    Oh please. You should know better than to make generalizations such as this.

    You wouldn’t believe how many times black men have tried to convince me (they literally tried to talk me out of it) to not date white men, or who have been belligerent towards me because of my dating preferences. A few of my boyfriends, who were white, have nearly been jumped by black men on several occasions for dating me. I’ve been called a traitor to my race by a few black men as well. It’s not solely a “sista problem”.

    Portraying sistas as the sole instigators/proprietors of grief over interracial dating couldn’t be more false.

    This was the beginning of our debate. I proclaimed that some of both black men and women bemoan dating white people. That was it. It was never about who complains more. That’s the key distinction in this entire debate. My entire qualm with your statement, from the very beginning, was from your assertion that it’s only ever black women complaining about interracial dating.

    Unless you make a pathetic claim that that wasn’t my argument, you are wrong.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “And the truth is, that most women who viscerally react to the “hot babe” aspect of game, do so because they themselves dont have the goods. Period, end of.”
    I wrote: “Yes, many women get jealous when the cads do not pursue them.”

    Same idea, different vantage points. It’s all the same in the end.

    O: “If i said the same thing only aimed at a guy about say his lack of height or whatever, would you have come outta the woodwork with such a response? The odds dont favor it. Of course we all know, or should know, why that is.”

    Hopefully we all know that it is because I’m not a man.

    You appear to be overreacting to and misinterpreting my lack of reverence for caddery. I don’t like it because I’ve been subjected to it. I certainly won’t say that I’ve been targeted as a hot blonde 10 or whatever, but apparently some ranking I’m not aware of has subjected me to some tom foolery in some instances, leaving me kind of confused about some guy’s intentions, whether these events are indicative of any real trend that I should fix, or be concerned about, or not.

    This is what drew me to HUS. I need a bit more depth of insight on my experiences to help me to sort things out and act accordingly. You purport that your philosophical meanderings are the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything (shout out to Doug Adams). While occasionally interesting, they don’t touch upon everything that is relevant to me, which is a point that you have explained yourself in previous posts.

  • Esau

    Liza207 at 529: “it could help some decent guy get over his fear of approaching to strike up a converstion with a woman he is interested in with worrying about the outcome.”

    Inviting you to speculate here: why, do you think, might a decent guy have fear of approaching a woman to strike up a conversation in the first place? What outcome, exactly, do you imagine he’d be worried about, and why?

    I’m genuinely curious if you have any ideas here (we’ll try for empathy later), beyond the vague “so many men are feminized, microtesticular cowards”, which is ultimately just an empty canard. Fear sometimes has reasons behind it, rational or otherwise; and understanding those reasons is better than simply sneering.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Thank you! Please allow me to return the favor:
    As mcb has shown, in addition to my examples-and yours i might add-my original statement statement stands: that, in the main, the vast majority of consternation about ir dating and the like, does indeed come from black women, not black men. The paucity of examples you gave, in stark relief to just about any examples anyone here reading this exchange could google up themselves coming from sistas, only buttresses my case.

    Thras’ points go to illuminate the overall discussion, shoots down more specific points you and mierelle made etc. No one is hating on who you date or why; indeed, for the most part and if anything, most brothas in particular couldnt care less.

    Yawn.

    O.

  • Esau

    Liza at 466: “This is why I keep saying that most men cannot handle the truth concerning what women really and honestly desire when it comes to them.”

    It should be pointed out, that you yourself haven’t actually said anything about this supposed “difficult truth” in any real, imaginable detail. Your writing is full of the vaguest imaginable, or completely circular formulations, like “know what it means to be a man” or “be in touch with your masculine impulses”, but no sensible descriptions of any actual day-to-day actions which might embody that.

    Fortunately, I’m here to help. Let’s try to hammer out some concrete examples, shall we? How would you feel about reinstating the tradition of playing “Scuttle” at your workplace?

    http://articles.latimes.com/1991-11-03/news/vw-1410_1_sexual-harassment

    Is this more what you had in mind, from a pre-”feminized” era? Seems to me that these guys must have been in pretty good touch with their masculine impulses, don’t you think?

    Now it’s your turn: can you describe, in detail, any “masculine” practices that you’d like to see, without resorting to hopelessly vague and/or circular definitions?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    As mcb has shown, in addition to my examples-and yours i might add-my original statement statement stands: that, in the main, the vast majority of consternation about ir dating and the like, does indeed come from black women, not black men. The paucity of examples you gave, in stark relief to just about any examples anyone here reading this exchange could google up themselves coming from sistas, only buttresses my case.

    Thras’ points go to illuminate the overall discussion, shoots down more specific points you and mierelle made etc. No one is hating on who you date or why; indeed, for the most part and if anything, most brothas in particular couldnt care less.

    See how much different your revised statement is from your original one?

    Thank fucking god for revision.

    If you had made that clear and coherent statement from the get go, you would not have heard a single word of protest from me. I agree with the idea that black women have complained more than black men in regards to interracial dating. That was not your original claim, however.

    It was a poorly written blanket statement that professed black women as the sole people that have grief over the subject.

    See what being clear gets you in online discussions. Clarification is awesome, isn’t it?

    That wasn’t so hard, now was it Obsidian?

    I hereby call this discussion now closed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Obsidian has met his match in Sassy. :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    One further point-quantity DOES matter here, because its a reflection of what the sexes-black women and black men-deem as important. Part of the reason why black women bemoan ir dating so much MORE than black men, is because of the real or perceived, “drain” of desirable black males from the pool of available men. Black men on the other hand, following the same sexual imperative and tendency toward liking sexual variety, simply dont see this as an issue.

    So, ill tell you what-lets agree that theres a small cabal of brothas who dont like you dating white guys-fair enough?

    Now-would you concede, that they pale in comparison to the roaring chorus of sistas who dont like (“their men”) dating/marrying out?

    Hmm?

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    So, ill tell you what-lets agree that theres a small cabal of brothas who dont like you dating white guys-fair enough?

    Sure, but it sure took long enough.

    Now-would you concede, that they pale in comparison to the roaring chorus of sistas who dont like (“their men”) dating/marrying out?

    I NEVER ARGUED OTHERWISE. I agree with that statement 100%.

    Thanks for finally conceding to my point and clarifying your original statement.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I suspect most women can’t relate to how difficult this stuff is for men because putting on a push-up bra is a little easier than what men have to go through to become attractive.

    This is another point of disconnect I’m sure if you ask any woman in USA if she would change some undesirable aspect of her personality in order to maximize her chances with men you will get a big “That is sexist. I will never change myself for a man” according to feminism teaching a woman becomes more attractive by doing what makes a man more attractive: Getting a career, making her own money, not taking crap from anyone and so. The physical aspect is at best manipulated since most men don’t care what kind of shoes you are wearing and there is a lot of gay men and women controlling fashion magazines and clothes manufacturing and is more PC to listen to gay designers than to straight males about what is attractive. So I will guess that women that actually had done some inner work, and no reading self help books is not work, would be more open to understand how harder it is to change from the inside out, YMMV,

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Lol-ive never purported to have the answer to everything-but i DO have lots and lots of questions. And i think having questions is a good thing, dont you? I think if anyones overreacting here, its you.

    As for the solution to your problems-i can save you the trouble. As ive often said, we all know where the betas be; step to em and make it happen! But we all know why that is about as likely to happen by the vast majority of women, as any of us are to hit this weeks powerball-because such guys dont make the ladies tingle-at least not at this point in their lives. To which i say “great!”. The problem of course, is that, well…i think the sidebar convo involving ms liza about sums it up.

    And your dodge is nice, too. I see the salsa lessons are taking root! You and i and everyone else knows that if i said the exact same thing but aimed it at a guys real or perceived shortcomings, nobody-especially any women, including you-would bat an eye. We only get out of joint when its a woman involved.

    Fascinating.

    O.

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh
    “it’s a massive step forward to see a Game pro acknowledge that there are different kinds of women, and that they vary in quality.”

    No it’s not. “Game pros” have acknowledged that for years. YEARS lol Seriously, I can dig up posts, articles, discussions, etc. from pre-2000 on the subject for you to spend the week reading if you’d like. :)

    @Anacaona
    “So I will guess that women that actually had done some inner work, and no reading self help books is not work, would be more open to understand how harder it is to change from the inside out, YMMV,”

    Yep. Unfortunately society encourages women NOT to do any inner-work, because they’re already special and perfect in and way. After all if you can’t accept them at their worst, you don’t deserve them at their best and it’s a woman’s perogative to change her mind and blah blah blah all that enabling stuff.

    Whereas if a man doesn’t change, going out in “the field” and talking to girls will let him know straight-up that he has to fix himself. That’s why we encourage guys to go out and talk to girls, because the field will smack you down HARD for ANY flaws you have in any category of your life, repeatedly, until you fix them.

    Soon as I meet a girl who can tell me she went through the equivalent of being rejected and publicly humiliated by over 100 strangers in a month for no reason other than that she dared to say “Hello” to them, that girl will have like 1% of the experience that a PUA went through on his path of self-development.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareally

      No it’s not. “Game pros” have acknowledged that for years. YEARS lol Seriously, I can dig up posts, articles, discussions, etc. from pre-2000 on the subject for you to spend the week reading if you’d like.

      I believe you. This gets at my earlier question – why are so many popular Game blogs in the manosphere of the “dark” variety? There’s a strong misogynists bent to them – and there’s also a strong overlap with MRAs.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Since we’re attempting to see how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here, yes, youre right-you didnt argue otherwise.

    But, the small little problem ive noticed with “swirlers” is they tend to frame these kind of arguments in a way that equal numbers of brothas hate on ir’s as sistas-and weve both agreed that is simply not true. Quantity matters because it then puts things in their proper context. Ive find that swirlers dont do this proably out of being defensive, which believe it or not im sympathetic to. But it does give a misleading impression of whats actually going on, and i think we can both agree that aint right.

    Right?

    O.

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh
    “A man may pretend to be emotionally invested, pretend to be exclusive, or pretend to be interested in a relationship to get a reluctant woman into bed. This is deeply immoral.”

    Agreed. It’s a good thing game teaches men NOT to pretend to be exclusive or pretend to be interested in a relationship, and instead make our intentions known straight up so the girl knows we’re interested in sex.

    You know who tells girls they love them to get them into bed? Natural alphas, who are naturally good with women and didn’t learn Game.

    Game is like a dojo that teaches you “Look, we’re going to show you how to punch a guy’s head off…but don’t use it unless you have to, and don’t use it for bad things. Use it to protect your loved ones and help people around you” VS the guy who learned on the streets to just punch the crap out of everything.

    A game motto from way back in the pre-The Game days is “leave them better than you found them”.

    “Honestly, I feel strongly enough about this that if my husband pulled that shit I would give one warning and then be ready to leave if it happened again.”

    Guaranteed if I observed your relationship for a few weeks I’d be able to point out him doing a bunch of that stuff but in a way that you don’t categorize it as that. Guaranteed. You are essentially saying “I haven’t SEEN him drive his car all the way to work so there’s no way he’s doing it.” Ya, he is, you just aren’t tuned into it. And that’s fine, it’s not important for you to be tuned into it. The vast majority of the world isn’t. That’s why we refer to it as The Matrix.

    You have a conscious understanding of some basic game concepts, but you don’t have the depth of experience with those game concepts that’s neccesary to know what to spot. The same way if I watched a soccer game I could see “oh, okay, they scored some points, and that looked like an advanced play there with that thing he did with his legs” but I would be missing a ton of nuances and details that someone who’s played soccer for years would be seeing.

    You have to agree that it wouldn’t make logical sense for me to then tell that soccer pro I’m watching the game with “No, you’re wrong, what you saw isn’t really what’s going on. Trust me, if that ACTUALLY happened I would quit watching the game.”

    You may be either under-estimating the complexities of social dynamics or over-estimating your ability to read them. Or possibly a combination of both. This isn’t a judgement call on you as a person, I’m just explaining why there’s a disconnect for you.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yareally

      You may be either under-estimating the complexities of social dynamics or over-estimating your ability to read them. Or possibly a combination of both. This isn’t a judgement call on you as a person, I’m just explaining why there’s a disconnect for you.

      You know what? If our relationship works, that’s cool, I don’t care what he might be doing to make it happen. I do know that if he tried to “instill dread” as Roissy suggests, I’d kick him out of bed. Flirting with other women? Making me worry that something better is always just around the corner? No thanks. I’d happily do WGTOW in that case. I don’t have time for Game in my marriage. Be dominant if you are dominant. If you are not dominant, learn how to be. Make it part of yourself, make it real. I have no time or tolerance for strategems in marriage. Eff that.

  • Wonder

    ”For the record, Peter Dinklage as Tyrion in Game of Thrones is one of the most alpha guys ever. Very tingle worthy. He’s 4’5″. His wife is 5’6″.”

    Money induces gina-tingles in many women. His game of thrones character can only bang women if they’re getting paid to do it. You’ve read the books? His brother, the King – slayer, a most attractive man paid a prostitute to take his virginity and play the role of damsel in distress whom tyron rushed to protect. What I love about the Game of Throne books is how honest the author is concerning women and men; the Dragon Queen was raped by the leader of the Barbarians, practically, but she grew to love him.

    Some of the characters are so noble but can’t get laid to save their lives. John Snow, for example. Dude has it made in terms of looks, but because he’s a bastard(illegitimate son, not that type of bastard, lol) he has to contend with his hand, and he’s too soft-spoken and kind.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Quantity matters because it then puts things in their proper context. Ive find that swirlers dont do this proably out of being defensive, which believe it or not im sympathetic to. But it does give a misleading impression of whats actually going on, and i think we can both agree that aint right.

    Right?

    Yes, I agree with that.

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh

    lol

    “1. Roissy is intended to be taken with a grain of salt. Most beta guys need that shakeup to know what’s what, and can implement just a small portion of what he suggests to improve their lives. BS.”

    Why is it BS? Got some stats, cites, anything? Are you saying there aren’t guys who’ve implemented small portions of what Roissy suggests and improved their lives? Because I can point you to a ton of commenters who felt differently when they improved their lives by implementing small portions of what Roissy suggests.

    Or are you saying it’s BS that Roissy should be taken with a grain of salt and we’re just trying to do damage control on his offensive/blunt views? If that’s the case, you should understand that something offending your sensibilities doesn’t mean it doesn’t make logical sense or isn’t true. Roissy just doesn’t sugar-coat anything.

    “2. Guys need to go through a Dark period to understand Game and return to the Light. BS.”

    Why is this BS? Got some stats, cites, anything? No? Here’s how a baby learns to walk:

    It takes a step forward leaning a little too far to the left and falls over. Then it tries again and takes a step forward leaning to the right a little too far and falls over. Then it tries again and this time it starts to learn to balance the two and actually walk.

    Beta guys are leaning to the left. Dark game is leaning to the right. Light game is in the middle somewhere.

    But please, let me know what’s BS about those two statements you just called BS. I feel like I’ve pretty thoroughly rebutted them with this comment but it’s hard to know exactly what you mean based off two letters of the alphabet so please explain further. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Yareally

      Beta guys are leaning to the left. Dark game is leaning to the right. Light game is in the middle somewhere.

      A man of character does not lean right. Ever. Find the middle. No compromise.

  • http://www.postmasculine.com Zac

    I think this is a great article. It falls in line with a lot of things I beleive as an individual. “prestige” slightly falls into the concepts of working on your lifestyle, being the best person you can, ect. I think in a way dominance falls into the category of having prestige though. Prestigious people are passively dominant in a way. You want to listen to them, you can’t look away, their words hold weight, they only speak when they know the right thing to say.

    Dominance can be a confusing word really. I think you did a pretty great job framing the importance of prestige and how dominance standing alone is not actually that attractive of a trait for most women. Again though, I think prestigious people have a dominant presence so it’s hard to say you have one without the other.

    “Expect men engaging in casual sex rather than relationships to display more dominance, as it is less penalized in a short-term mating context.”

    I find fault in this. I think telling anyone to expect that is a little irresponsible.

    “Men with earned prestige have much higher emotional intelligence than men with self-serving, agentic behaviors. Look for depth of emotional expression in the men you date. The emotions need not be focused on you, but a man should feel strong love and loyalty for the things and people he cares about”

    I think this is a very important trait to look for. Spot on really. I don’t understand how you continually seem on this blog to assert that the man you just described could not possibly be a man that engages in casual sex though.

    Thanks again for this article. 99% of it really falls in line with my way of thinking. I’d like to hear more about prestige on your blog in the future. It’s an interesting way of framing this discussion and I have no heard it before. Kudos for that.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    pua @ 571

    Spot on. People can’t recognize what happens in social interactions. Hence why it’s so easy for people to say “it just happened! My clothes just fell off! We just had such a connection!”

    @ Liza, on learning game:

    Honestly, you do not understand how difficult it can be to truly absorb game and start applying principles. I started reading this shit back in 2006. I was in a seriously bad mental state. I applied these concepts once in 2007, I believe I was the date. September, if I remember correctly.I had things going well for a while, but I stepped into full-on douche mode and lost the girl PDQ. She was still interested, I think, popped up a few times that year in college, but I had lost the confidence and desire to approach her.

    Wasn’t until 2011 that I was finally working out life shit and started applying this stuff again one night. Worked out very well that time. Thought she was a good girl. Made a strong enough impression on her to stand out after months of no contact. Fling, turned into girlfriend.

    Only after that, and only after the true, utter humiliation that was that relationship, can I ACTUALLY get fully involved into applying this stuff. Even then, it’s hard. Even then, I have to work myself to approach every girl, even the ones that show me IOIs, because it runs against 25 years of social and personal programming. Even harder to suppress the urge to supplicate and apologize, even HARDER to keep conversations going, damn near IMPOSSIBLE to try to close because it’s just unnatural for an introverted guy with not a ton of positive girl experience let alone PUA experience to # close girls.

    Not only that.

    There’s no social support IRL for this. None. Everyone is rooting for you to fail.

    You are asking for a TON from men.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Whew, yrpua is muderin, em! Do your thing, bruh!

    @ms walsh:
    Wrt relationship science/short term mating/dopamine-what do you say about the well publicized “faces” story in the nyt a little while back-that made clear male choices in short or longterm mating on the basis of the beauty of the faces of the ladies they encountered? We know that women (and men to be fair) are slotted into two major catergories-short and long term mating. We know this in the case of women by their appearance-some have much better (lucious) bodies than faces, which puts them in the short term slot; and the reverse for women in the longterm slot.

    How does dopamine play into all that?

    Also: i dont think dopamine is playing that big a role as to why black men seem opt more for short term mating; ive laidout my theory as to why this state of affairs exists. Would love to get your take on it!

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      We know that women (and men to be fair) are slotted into two major catergories-short and long term mating. We know this in the case of women by their appearance-some have much better (lucious) bodies than faces, which puts them in the short term slot; and the reverse for women in the longterm slot.

      How does dopamine play into all that?

      Sorry, Obs, I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Can you expand?

  • Underdog

    “I’ve seen numerous posts where a PUA type suggests that for man to truly understand game and women, he should bang tons of women. Does that seem like a moral or ethical thing to suggest? Is the only way to understand a woman is through her vagina?”

    I see nothing wrong with this. It’s like saying, for one to be a good fighter, he needs to fight many people. For a guy to be good with women, sure, fuck a bunch of women. It’ll teach you calibration, which is a huge part of game. Immoral? Subjective. True? Definitely.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “Is it because they focus on PUA for men rather than broader discussions? ”

    Because a lot of PUA is focused on winning battles with women, and also because Dark Game isn’t all that ineffective.

    Unfortunately, society reaps what society sows. Most guys are good guys, which is why most guys are betas. When you swallow the redpill, it’s sort of like learning that all along your best friend was raping your family and stealing from your bank account while telling you everything was okay and you BELIEVED him.

    And then they get the weapon for revenge.

    Choices gave consequences. And I mean gave. Not have. Consequences are a gift, that’s why we make the Choices.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And then they get the weapon for revenge.

      Yes, this is very powerful.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan
    “That’s just a little too convenient for my taste. Sounds like a surefire method for assuaging one’s conscience. “I may be a liar and exploiting this woman to get sex, but women as a gender are capable of this and worse!””

    Of course it’s a method of assuaging his conscience. However, his motivation for his statement doesn’t necessarily detract from the statement’s truth, which was that women are responsible for their own actions (and that their actions indicate revealed preference). It isn’t saying that it’s justified in exploiting them because they are capable of bad things, it’s saying that they aren’t children that need to be protected from their own actions.

    The truth is, for lots of use reformed betas, there’s a strong part of our upbringing that made it hard to shed the idea of women as “victims who need protecting”. It was one harder parts of the the red pill to accept: to change the mentality that “it’s never the woman’s fault”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      It isn’t saying that it’s justified in exploiting them because they are capable of bad things, it’s saying that they aren’t children that need to be protected from their own actions.

      I agree with that conclusion. It’s valid as long as deception is not employed as a strategy.

  • Kathy

    Sheesh, Ramble, just a bit of humor here, not snark. *rolls eyes*

    “So, here’s my question:
    Is it possible that some girl, upon meeting some 6’3″ guy, just might think of his tall stature as being, what we might refer to as, an “alpha” trait?” ..”

    I will answer from my own percpective, okay?

    If this tall guy opened his mouth and was a cocky overbearing loudmouth then that would be an instant turn off for me..

    When I first opened my front door and saw my prospective husband, who remember is 5’6″. It was his smiling face and blue eyes that I first noticed. Good fit taught body, as well. (I work out every day, and have done for years, so yes that was an attraction for me.)
    And when we began to chat, I was further drawn in. His honesty, his intelligence. His lack of BS.. Refreshing. Straight shooter, like me.
    Height never crossed my mind.
    Some months before, I was asked out by a gorgeous fireman. Well over six foot. Classic tall dark and handsome.

    I turned him down. Know why? Because when he opened his mouth there was instant turn -off for me.. Cocky, and not too clever..
    There again, height was never a factor. Had he had a different personality I may have gone out with him.. But, really, there was just no attraction there for me. He was good looking but boring..

    I never had a laundry list. :)

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh

    “Why is it that guys like the ones you link to are not generally the go-to manosphere blogs?”

    Because here’s how it works in order of depth of knowledge and understanding of game and social dynamics:

    - Hardcore oldschool PUAs
    - Modern PUAs
    - Manosphere
    - Your blog, SoSuave, etc.
    - Main-stream Media like Maxim
    - Main-stream Media like msn.com
    - Main-stream Media like everything else

    The Manosphere is Game Lite, way less offensive or cold and calculated like PUA stuff, and PUA stuff is extremely overwhelming to a newbie because there’s so much information to digest in the PUA community.

    So newbies find the Manosphere first because they don’t want to “learn how to steal a girl from her boyfriend”, that’s bad “dark game”, they just want to learn how to “attract this girl I like”. Then they get sucked into the Manosphere because there’s legit good information in it that registers with their experiences in life, but they’re comfortable there because it improves their life enough that they don’t really have to venture down into the depths of PUA knowledge.

    “Maybe I should make a list from your comment.”

    Pretty much any PUA would be happy to help you with that list. But understand that in the PUA community there’s no distinction between light and dark tactics. Those are labels the Manosphere and above have given game concepts. In fact that’s the exact reason “guys like the one you link to are not generally the go-to manosphere blogs”…It’s like saying “I want to link to a martial arts site, but not a violent one”. You can’t find a “light game” PUA because “dark game” will be mixed in, and any “dark game” PUA you find will have “light game” mixed in.

    That’s just how it works, because we don’t care about labelling things as moral or immoral, all we care about is a binary “what works, what doesn’t work, and why?”

    @DefinateBeta
    “People can’t recognize what happens in social interactions. Hence why it’s so easy for people to say “it just happened! My clothes just fell off! We just had such a connection!””

    Yep. Girls don’t even remember how we met or ended up in bed etc. if you ask them later (insert roofie joke lol). Because to them it “just happened”. Meanwhile I can explain every conscious action I made and every subconscious action she made that resulted in our hooking up…but women are happier believing this stuff “just happens” and then scolding men for daring to imply that women don’t have enough self-awareness to understand their own attraction/actions.

    This is why PUAs don’t listen to girls about this stuff. It’s like asking a kid how a jet engine works and expecting a knowledgable answer. To him it’s just magic. Nothing against women, like I say society encourages them NOT to be self-aware so this is simply the logical end result of a society structured around protecting women from ever thinking beyond their emotions in the moment.

    If I’m married and cheat on my wife, I get divorced, lose half my money, lose access to my kids, have to pay child support, possibly get thrown in jail if she decides to lie and say I abused her because she’s mad at me, etc. If I’m married and my wife cheats, she divorces me, gets half my money, gets the kids, gets free money for child support, and everyone in society high-fives her for following her Eat, Pray, Love heart and I was probably some asshole who didn’t satisfy her needs anyway.

    It’s a really one-sided society lol so it’s not a surprise there’s a difference in how the sexes view social dynamics.

    “There’s no social support IRL for this. None. Everyone is rooting for you to fail.”

    Yep. And at least guys now have the Manosphere and a large PUA community to help them out plus books like The Game and shows like Keys to the VIP and The Pick-Up Artist etc. have helped make pickup less freakish and evil to the general public. But back in the day when it was all still underground it was pretty much you VS the world.

    I would liken the struggle to trying to come out as being gay in a massively homophobic society. Like we’re talking that level of pain, suffering, alienation, and determination to pull through it all.
    And then women expect ALL men to be able to do this on the first go. Like, come on now. That’s asking a lot lol

    @Obsidian
    “Whew, yrpua is muderin, em! Do your thing, bruh!”

    lol I’m just bringing in logic. I’m surprised I haven’t been banned yet, but I’m really not doing anything except clarifying mistaken assumptions and linking to resources that people who actually want to learn more can do so. It looked like you could use some support on the first couple pages of this. I won’t be here again after today ’cause this is ridiculously time consuming, but keep up the good fight. :)

    @DefiniteBeta
    “When you swallow the redpill, it’s sort of like learning that all along your best friend was raping your family and stealing from your bank account while telling you everything was okay and you BELIEVED him.”

    lololol

    Good analogy lol And true. It’s a massive mind-fuck. That’s why some PUAs, at the start, come into it with massive revenge fantasies and a bitter outlook on women. This vibe is REALLY prevalent in the MRA and MGTOW communities from what I’ve seen. PUAs, however, learn to work within the system and basically learn “okay look you got fucked over pretty bad, but we all did, we understand, at least look at the positive: now you have a method for living the next half of your life out from under that cloud of bullshit, and women really are pretty awesome once you understand why they do what they do” and down the road those angry PUAs let that anger go and become cool guys who legit love women and don’t have any need for “dark game”.

  • Richard Aubrey

    So, where did the blue-pill, socially-programmed, deceitful idea come from? Why is it so widespread? What is it that keeps it going? Who’s got anything to gain by it?
    Why is it so deeply ingrained in so many men that finding the red pill has such an impact? Doesn’t that require endless reinforcement from every direction all day, every day?
    Who/what is doing it, and why?

  • Abbot

    When “women” make comments like these, does it imply that dominance really means anything?

    3. You’re a Slut.
    Hooking up with some guy in a hot tub on a rooftop is fine for the ladies of Jersey Shore — but they’re not trying to get married. You are. Which means, unfortunately, that if you’re having sex outside committed relationships, you will have to stop. Why? Because past a certain age, casual sex is like recreational heroin — it doesn’t stay recreational for long.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tracy-mcmillan/why-youre-not-married_b_822088.html

    At any age its gonna be deal breaker for nearly all men later.

    8. You are sexually liberated.

    See also: sexually adventurous, referred to as “slut” by people from the olden days, religious leaders, people that think vaginas are gross and Tracy McMillan. Right now, you just wanna get down, and that’s not a lie, that’s libido #realtalk.

    http://jezebel.com/5915555/ten-very-good-reasons-you-arent-married-yet

    Why is it whenever there is this sort of writing about fucking men the men are NEVER mentioned as if they are just some extra in a movie or merely an always willing and available interactive sex toy?

  • Ramble

    Game pro acknowledge that there are different kinds of women, and that they vary in quality.

    I am no expert on these things, but I am confident that the general PUA community (a few individual excepted) has never disagreed on the idea that girls varied in quality (i.e. 10′s vs warpigs, wallflowers versus drama queens, etc. … I am not saying they were nuanced about it, but still).

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “As for the solution to your problems-i can save you the trouble.”

    I have decided that this is not your job. You are not qualified for it. There are plenty of other suitable resources here. Ms. Walsh is one of them.

    You are absolutely correct that I am dodging. I am dodging a pigeonhole. No matter how I answer, you’ll use it against me and parade around with my proverbial head on a stick to celebrate your pseudo-triumph.

    After this current flame war blows over, I’ll continue to take interesting tidbits from your posts into consideration. I’m open to answering any of your genuine questions, as I had before, with the condition that you have no pre-determined answer for them.

  • Ramble

    and is more PC to listen to gay designers than to straight males about what is attractive.

    More fun too. Gay guys are Fabulous!

  • Ramble

    This is a very astute question. I think intelligent women adore intelligent guys with Game.

    Did you notice that this very simple question went unanswered?

  • yareallypua

    @Ramble
    “I am no expert on these things, but I am confident that the general PUA community (a few individual excepted) has never disagreed on the idea that girls varied in quality (i.e. 10′s vs warpigs, wallflowers versus drama queens, etc. … I am not saying they were nuanced about it, but still).”

    You are correct.

    @SusanWalsh
    “This gets at my earlier question – why are so many popular Game blogs in the manosphere of the “dark” variety?”

    Because anything that offends your sensibilities you categorize as “dark” and you seem to refuse to believe that normal healthy good naturally attractive guys do a lot of what you would consider “dark game” except that when you like the guy you let it slide. The same way you’d forgive your sister for stealing a loaf of bread but might not give that same understanding to someone you hate who did the same thing. That’s human nature, but you should be aware that you’re doing it to have these discussions.

    You’re essentially like the sexist guy saying “why do women only talk about pantyhose and boys?” It’s not that that’s all they talk about, it’s that that’s all he bothers seeing and he lumps everything they do into categories like that so he doesn’t have to alter his world view.

    “and there’s also a strong overlap with MRAs.”

    No idea how that happened, but if it’s any consolation PUAs don’t even know MRAs or MGTOW guys exist. I’m very well versed in the PUA communities and I had no idea MRAs were even a “thing”. It could have to do with age (MRAs/MGTOW guys tend to be older and burned multiple times, PUAs tend to be younger and on their first go of being burned lol) but ya, not only are MRAs/MGTOW not on our radars at all but I’m pretty sure any MGTOW that posted on an actual legit PUA forum would be laughed at lol

    “If our relationship works, that’s cool, I don’t care what he might be doing to make it happen.”

    Exactly. More power to ya and I hope for nothing but the best. I don’t know how my stove works, but it cooks my food so I’m happy enough. But like I say, it wouldn’t make sense for me to then tell stove repairmen how stoves work, know what I mean lol

    “I do know that if he tried to “instill dread” as Roissy suggests, I’d kick him out of bed.”

    You would have no idea he did it and you would respond the way Roissy suggests you would respond. This is the same as girls saying “oh a neg would never work on me” but then they giggle and go “shut uuup!! lol” and punch their boyfriend in the arm when he playfully teases her about her crazy hair in the morning after a fun romp together. They just don’t draw the connection between that and a guy using a neg on them because they’re thinking emotionally. Guys can see the similarities because we’re looking at it logically…that’s why we see assholes banging girls left and right and girls are saying “no I would NEVER sleep with an asshole”. In the minds of the girls who sleep with assholes, those assholes AREN’T assholes lol

    How’s that for confusing. I can explain the concept further if you like. :)

    “A man of character does not lean right. Ever. Find the middle. No compromise.”

    Oh, okay. And a woman of beauty NEVER looks bad. EVER. She wears her high heels and make-up to SLEEP, goddamit!!! GRRRR!!! NO COMPROMISE!!! And eff those children for daring to fall over when they learn something new. I saw this kid fall off a bike when he was trying to balance, I just uppercutted him to the moon. No compromise!! And this chick failed a test in school, can you believe it? She actually DIDN’T study, she slacked off and then got a bad grade and learned from that not to slack off. But you know what? NO COMPROMISE!! UPPERCUT TO THE MOON!!!!

    And don’t even get me STARTED on the fatty who DARED to eat unhealthy and not exercise until they learned that that wasn’t the best lifestyle and then tried to change their diet to be healthy and get in shape. NO COMPROMISE!!

    Or the person learning to cook who DARED make a meal that tasted bad and made the people who ate it throw up because it was so awful. How DARE they err on the side of using TOO MUCH of an ingredient in a recipe they’ve never made before. If they had ANY integrity they would have just been perfect right from the start! NO COMPROMISE!!

    …get my point? or do I have to get more silly with my examples of why that logic is flawed? ’cause I totally can lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareally

      Because anything that offends your sensibilities you categorize as “dark” and you seem to refuse to believe that normal healthy good naturally attractive guys do a lot of what you would consider “dark game” except that when you like the guy you let it slide. The same way you’d forgive your sister for stealing a loaf of bread but might not give that same understanding to someone you hate who did the same thing. That’s human nature, but you should be aware that you’re doing it to have these discussions.

      Not really. I am consistent. It boils down to intent. Intent to deceive? Dark. Immoral. Finis.

      They just don’t draw the connection between that and a guy using a neg on them because they’re thinking emotionally. Guys can see the similarities because we’re looking at it logically…that’s why we see assholes banging girls left and right and girls are saying “no I would NEVER sleep with an asshole”. In the minds of the girls who sleep with assholes, those assholes AREN’T assholes lol

      You’re banging dumb chicks. I can detect any and all tactics deployed by males. It really ain’t that hard, lol. You don’t think women are capable of learning Game tactics and then recognizing them when they’re deployed?

      Women are emotional, men are logical. Yeah, OK. What’s your level of education?

      Finally, deceptive or coercive tactics to get sex from women – a very expensive and high risk proposition for women – does not begin to compare to women applying makeup and wearing pushup bras to look fertile. A woman presents her best self as an inducement to courtship. Not a pump and dump. Of course there are whores who advertise their services. But many women who follow cultural norms to appear attractive to men are in no way attempting to get males to invest under false pretenses, which is the corollary of Dark Game.

      I won’t say anything more on this subject. I reject your moral equivalency. I hope you don’t exact too much “collateral damage” in your amoral quest for poon.

  • Ramble

    Obisidian is scrupulous about Jedi vs. Sith Game, but the ‘sphere is definitely dominated by Dark types, especially lately.

    Simple.

    Because they are better writers.

    Quite a few books have been written on relativity for the lay person. One of the least popular was written by a person named Albert Einstein.

    I read it, and it was not that great.

    PBS once did a special on explaining Special and General Relativity, and it was pretty great. I have no idea who the producer, writer or director was.

  • Ramble

    Sheesh, Ramble, just a bit of humor here, not snark. *rolls eyes*

    If you can’t see that you were being sarcastic, then I don’t know what to say to you. Though, the fact that you added “*rolls eyes*” makes it especially good.

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh
    “I reject any approach that does not distinguish between moral and immoral”

    Ah shit, you just opened the big can of worms with that one. So do you reject science then? Testing on rats? Humans? Even if it potentially cures cancer to experiment on some people and those people are fully aware of the risks and volunteer for the study? etc. etc. insert more classic epic moral/immoral debates like the stealing bread to feed your family and killing someone who’s about to murder your son etc. etc.

    Or do you want to be a little more flexible on your rejection of any approach that does not distinguish between moral and immoral lol No one wants to go down THIS philosophical road in here I’m sure :)

    My point is that the driving motivation of PUAs was to understand social dynamics, not just the good social dynamics, the bad too. Think of it like this: You can’t fully, truly love someone until you know both the good AND bad in them. If you refuse to acknowledge or look at the bad, or they refuse to show it to you, you’re only in love with the facade you or they WANT you to see.

    But when you can accept the good and the bad in something, in someone, in an idea, in a system, in a society…THEN, you truly understand what it’s about.

    This is why I say you can’t link to a “light game” PUA site. Because we don’t put our heads in the sand when a truth is uncomfortable, we want to learn about it and understand it. Once we do, maybe we don’t ever use it, but it’s important for the sake of advancing knowledge and understanding of social dynamics, that that knowledge exists.

    For instance I can steal a girl from a guy. It’s really easy. I know all the ins and outs and I’ve done it before when I was learning. But now I don’t do it. Why? Because that’s not how I choose to live my life these days. I experimented with it, the way someone might experiment with drugs, alcohol, eating unhealthy food, spending money on frivolous things, etc. but then I decided I’d rather not do that and I don’t. So am I a horrible person because of my past, a good person because of my present, a redemption story because of the combo of the two?

    Now what if the guy I stole a girl from was an abusive boyfriend who was beating her every night? Am I still a horrible person? Am I a hero?

    What if the guy I stole the girl from was a nice guy who killed himself over losing her? Am I a horrible person? Am I still a hero?

    This is a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that everyone’s moral lines are drawn at different places in the sand. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareally

      This is why I say you can’t link to a “light game” PUA site. Because we don’t put our heads in the sand when a truth is uncomfortable, we want to learn about it and understand it. Once we do, maybe we don’t ever use it, but it’s important for the sake of advancing knowledge and understanding of social dynamics, that that knowledge exists.

      You must not use it. Of course it’s valuable and important to understand what evil is. All the great religions describe evil, so that man may avoid it.

      For instance I can steal a girl from a guy. It’s really easy. I know all the ins and outs and I’ve done it before when I was learning. But now I don’t do it. Why? Because that’s not how I choose to live my life these days. I experimented with it, the way someone might experiment with drugs, alcohol, eating unhealthy food, spending money on frivolous things, etc. but then I decided I’d rather not do that and I don’t. So am I a horrible person because of my past, a good person because of my present, a redemption story because of the combo of the two?

      There’s no justification for immoral behavior for the sake of learning. You could learn the same concepts by watching a roleplay video. It’s not for me to judge what kind of person you are. But I reject outright any “game plan” that permits immoral behavior for the sake of learning, to be compensated for later by moral behavior. Character does not work that way. It’s not a balance sheet.

      Now what if the guy I stole a girl from was an abusive boyfriend who was beating her every night? Am I still a horrible person? Am I a hero?

      What if the guy I stole the girl from was a nice guy who killed himself over losing her? Am I a horrible person? Am I still a hero?

      Those circumstances are irrelevant. The immorality is in the stealing. It would be different if a friend came to you and begged for help because she was being beaten. If you benefited in any way, including sexually, your motives are compromised. In fact, you’re probably worse for having taken advantage of a woman who was in an abusive relationship.

      This is a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that everyone’s moral lines are drawn at different places in the sand.

      False. Morality is pretty clearly defined. Those who would seek to obfuscate attempt to shift where the lines are drawn. But you’re not fooling anyone, not even yourself.

  • Ramble

    I do know that if he tried to “instill dread” as Roissy suggests, I’d kick him out of bed.

    Susan, he told you that if you don’t fuck him, it’s over.

    I understand that you will re-phrase this, but, that is some serious shit.

    A man of character does not lean right.

    Please tell me that it is absolutely impossible to view what your husband did in that instance as leaning to the right.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Please tell me that it is absolutely impossible to view what your husband did in that instance as leaning to the right.

      Impossible! There was no deception whatsoever. He laid out his expectations and described how I was failing to meet them. He expressed his unwillingness to go the distance under those conditions. 100% honest and fair. I had a choice, and I made it. Our marriage survived.

  • Ramble

    It boils down to intent. Intent to deceive? Dark.

    What about this scenario:
    Some guy broke up with his girl a few weeks back, cried a bit, drank a bit, hung out with the boys a bit and finally got back in the game. His boys are throwing a house party and he is as horny as fucking hell.

    Sees some real cute girl and starts running his game. The second they make eye contact he approaches. She’s laughing, he’s smiling. Playful touching, the whole deal.

    The party sorta shifts back to his place. She is not the only one to go with him, a few others went as well.

    They are all joking about and he breaks off from the group to go lay down because his head is spinning. After 30 minutes the group starts to head back to the first house but the girl goes to check on that cute guy who’s head was spinning.

    She asks him how he is doing, he tells her that he is a lightweight …blah blah blah..make out, naked, fucking.

    He had tons of opportunities to tell her that he was dying for a good fuck that night. He didn’t. He knew that if he was that blunt, it all would have gone south. She didn’t ask, but then again, it all snuck up on her.

    So, did this guy lie via omission? I mean, couldn’t he safely assume that she was not looking for a “first night lay”? Was he employing dark game?

    =======================
    Bonus question:
    What if he found her only moderately attractive?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      That scenario? She pursued him! Sheesh, if his head was spinning he may have a case against her for sexual assault. Not that he could get any traction on such a claim…

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ramble
    “She asks him how he is doing, he tells her that he is a lightweight …blah blah blah..make out, naked, fucking.”

    She sounds like she might be empathetic and nurturing. What happens next, he plans to court her, date her, and if things go well, marry her?

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh

    “Not really. I am consistent. It boils down to intent. Intent to deceive? Dark. Immoral. Finis.”

    lol then you’ll be happy to know the PUA community stresses making your sexual intent clear and not deceiving the girl. Not like the guys who buy a girl dinner silently expecting to get in her pants in return, or the guys who say “no, no, we’re just friends” while they secretly harbor a crush on the girl for years.

    “You’re banging dumb chicks.”

    lol there it is.

    “I can detect any and all tactics deployed by males.”

    Of course you can. I definitely haven’t heard that before. Especially not from girls who’ve then slept with me or other guys I know with game. lol This is part of the “Women just KNOW, we have a magical sixth sense about these things” BS that society brainwashes guys with.

    Here’s how that works:

    - Social calibration and awareness of social dynamics is a skill that is learned

    - Most girls learn this at a very early age from a combination of having to survive school where girls are more social bullies than boys (who just fist-fight their differences out), and from hitting puberty and having thousands of men a year approach or try to flirt with them

    - So in adulthood girls generally have the advantage by a huge margin. The man is, for lack of a better analogy, on Level 3 of social skills and the girl is on Level 30-50 of social skills. Even the ugliest least popular girl still has a better read on social dynamics than the nerd guy does just because she was forced into more situations having to learn those skills.

    - But a natural alpha picked up a lot of social skills in school because he happened to have some success or a foothold that gave him an advantage etc. It can be as simple as the first girl he asked out said Yes while the first girl the nerd asked out was a No. It butterfly effects from there. So a natural alpha ends up around Level 40-50, but some natural alphas really focus on getting women and they end up at Level 60. They’re not perfectly smooth and some Level 50 girls can tell they’re up to something and call them out on it, but the Level 30 girls get swept away and heartbroken etc.

    - Now because of relativity, girls all think they have Level 100 game, since girls primarily run into mostly guys with Level 3 game, but occasionally they run into guys with Level 10 game, or Level 20 game, maybe even Level 40 once in a blue moon…but primarily the guys they’ve met are all way down below Level 10, from the creepy old guy at the grocery store with a crush on you to the scary rapist dude to the nice guy who just had no game to the shitty newbie PUA in the club who creeped you out with his bad kino skills etc.

    The reality is they just haven’t run into a guy with a better handle on social dynamics than them. It’s like being the best poker player in a group of guys who just learned to play poker today. You feel like an omnipotent god, but you’re not going to be winning the WSOP anytime soon.

    - What PUAs do is compact a TON of experience into a VERY short time, we do this by going out daily, for hours, purposely throwing ourselves into as many social interactions as possible, over and over and over, for years, learning the ropes and not just learning them but CONSCIOUSLY learning them. Breaking them apart, studying them, setting and achieving goals with them, etc. Girls and Naturals are like someone who plays Tennis as a hobby on the weekends, PUAs are like someone who hires a personal trainer and plays every single day and watches video footage of their matches to figure out how to improve.

    - The end result is the really GOOD PUAs (not the newbie ones that half-ass their training) end up with Level 100 game. The Level 30-80 girls have no idea how good we really are at understanding and using social dynamics because they’ve never run into anything like it before. We are 10 steps ahead of the girls who think “I would spot it INSTANTLY”.

    Of course you’ll never believe this and you’ll encourage other girls to not believe it and continue to perpetuate the social conditioning that makes men believe women are omnipotent and will isntantly spot game.

    And that belief is exactly what makes it work on the girls who think it won’t work on them. :)

    I don’t expect you to agree with any of this btw lol I’m just explaining for the guys in the audience.

    “You don’t think women are capable of learning Game tactics”

    Yes, though most don’t believe they work so they don’t bother.

    “and then recognizing them when they’re deployed?”

    Nope. Not in the moment at the very least. In the moment girls run on emotion. I can point you to the 19,000 Field Reports again if you like. :)

    “Women are emotional, men are logical.”

    Yep.

    “Yeah, OK. What’s your level of education?”

    See? That’s an emotional response. You’re mad at me for saying something that offends you so now you’re calling my character into question. The reason you’re doing that is to hopefully discredit me amongst the readers of these comments so that instead of having to logically disprove what I’m saying and come up with evidence, cites, sources, etc. that counter the thousands of pages of PUA knowledge and experience and Field Reports I’ve linked, you can rely on people’s emotional reponse to shame me. I’ve actually noticed you do this quite a bit lol but it doesn’t bother me because I know what you’re doing and why you’re instinctively/subconsciously doing it.

    This actually tends to be a female thing. A man will say “Oh YEAH? PROVE IT then!” (logical response) but a woman will say “Oh YEAH? What makes YOU so smart huh?” (emotional response)

    But thankyou for proving my point. :)

    “A woman presents her best self as an inducement to courtship.”

    lol maybe when you were a teenager. No offense intended, but it’s 2012, the world and the sexual dynamics have changed.
    Society’s view on sex isn’t the same, especially thanks for feminism and the whole grrrrl power movement that encourages girls to “ride the cock carousel” as some people put it.

    “Of course there are whores who advertise their services.”

    Madonna/Whore complex. You remember you just told us you went home with a guy you met at a party
    and then never saw him again right? How can you paint other girls as whores and say all women want courtship? Or can you acknowledge that sometimes healthy intelligent women want sex?

    “But many women who follow cultural norms to appear attractive to men are in no way attempting to get males to invest under false pretenses, which is the corollary of Dark Game.”

    Want me to point you to the “I’m in a sexless marriage” threads? Where the woman put out like crazy till the wedding day and then cut the guy off sex forever?

    Or the women who worked out every day till the wedding ring was on and then let themselves go and became 5,000lbs?

    Or the issues of cosmo that have tips on getting the guy you want?

    Or simply the girl who, when you wake up beside her and she doesn’t have all the make-up, push-up bra, etc. on that she had the night before, isn’t as physically attractive as she led you to invest in under all the false pretenses of that stuff?

    “I won’t say anything more on this subject.”

    Of course not, I’ve refuted all of your points brilliantly lol

    “I hope you don’t exact too much “collateral damage” in your amoral quest for poon.”

    You would be hard pressed to find a girl I’ve slept with who didn’t think highly of me. But then they’re all dumb slutty ho-bags anyway so what do they know, right? lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareally

      Of course you’ll never believe this and you’ll encourage other girls to not believe it and continue to perpetuate the social conditioning that makes men believe women are omnipotent and will isntantly spot game.

      And that belief is exactly what makes it work on the girls who think it won’t work on them.

      Please, this isn’t physics. I memorize MM in about an hour. I don’t care how smooth you are, a woman can learn Game as well as you can and knows it when she sees it. Most don’t. Many would benefit if they did. I translate a lot of these maneuvers for naive girls. The truth is, a PUA who has literally devoted all of his time to Game is a rarity. Most guys are deploying negs like, “Do you think your body type is good for horizontal stripes?”

      the whole grrrrl power movement that encourages girls to “ride the cock carousel” as some people put it.

      I focus on college girls, but only 2% of them get with 10 men in four years (including oral). Not exactly a majority.

      You remember you just told us you went home with a guy you met at a party
      and then never saw him again right? How can you paint other girls as whores and say all women want courtship? Or can you acknowledge that sometimes healthy intelligent women want sex?

      I can tell you that I had a series of ONSs because I felt shitty about what was going on, I wanted to know that men wanted me. The sex was shitty, and I was happy to steal away in the a.m. I never wanted to see those guys again, and avoided them on campus. I realized then, and for always, that I was not cut out for casual.

      You would be hard pressed to find a girl I’ve slept with who didn’t think highly of me. But then they’re all dumb slutty ho-bags anyway so what do they know, right? lol

      How could any woman think highly of a casual sex partner? Sorry, but pics or it didn’t happen. Would any of them be willing to come online and testify on your behalf? :)

      Honestly, whatever gets you through the night. I can tell you that as a mother, I would be deeply disappointed if my son dedicated his life to the pursuit of sex. Sex should not be one’s life purpose. That’s indulging one’s base instinct. Human beings are capable of so much more.

      “He banged 1,000 chicks.”

      What an epitaph.

  • Ramble

    What happens next, he plans to court her, date her, and if things go well, marry her?

    Great question.

    He has no idea. He was living in the moment. However, if he did see her in the light of day, he might be somewhat unimpressed.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ramble
    “However, if he did see her in the light of day, he might be somewhat unimpressed.”

    So there are probabilities to consider for her, then, if she’s living for the future. If there’s a high possibility that he might not be impressed by her outside of a drunk moment, it’s probably smartest that this hypothetical woman to avoid showing any empathy for drunk dudes at parties.

  • Esau

    Susan at 564: “However, coercion is a tried and true method for men to gain access to sex. A man may pretend to be emotionally invested, pretend to be exclusive, or pretend to be interested in a relationship to get a reluctant woman into bed. This is deeply immoral.”

    Without debating the final sentence, I have a language objection here. I don’t think pretending/deception can sensibly be defined as a type of coercion. Yes, deliberate deception may be something you find immoral, but that doesn’t mean you can equate willy-nilly it with some other thing that you also don’t like. This is quite a serious point: to me, coercion means force (or threat of force); and sexually force (or threat of force) means rape. It does no one any good to equate deception, or even non-physical threats, with actual rape; doing so is positively Dworkinesque, and that’s not a good neighborhood to be in.

  • yareallypua

    @Ramble
    “Susan, he told you that if you don’t fuck him, it’s over. I understand that you will re-phrase this, but, that is some serious shit.”

    lolololol really?? I didn’t know this at all lol That would’ve saved me a huge explanation. But ya, backwards rationalization and leniency/redefinition because of emotion and all that, like I said in my previous comment. That’s it in action. :)

    @SusanWalsh
    “You must not use it. Of course it’s valuable and important to understand what evil is. All the great religions describe evil, so that man may avoid it.”

    And how do you think we learn that evil is or what it looks like? By running into it instead of running away from it. When you were a baby who couldn’t speak you probably screamed and cried in public when you wanted something. Leaning to the right. Then you were taught through a mentor or life experience that that’s not the way to behave. Leaning to the middle. You weren’t a monster, you were just untrained/unlearned in social dynamics lol

    “There’s no justification for immoral behavior for the sake of learning.”

    Again, science? Experimenting on rats, humans? Even if it saves millions of lives? Your opinion on this?

    “You could learn the same concepts by watching a roleplay video.”

    Then why don’t we just show babies a video of someone burning their hand on the stove so they don’t have to touch a hot stove to learn not to do that? You’re painting a very idealistic world.

    “But I reject outright any “game plan” that permits immoral behavior for the sake of learning, to be compensated for later by moral behavior. Character does not work that way.”

    So then a martial artist learning to fight by fighting in tournaments has no character? A scientist curing cancer by experimenting on rats who can’t give consent has no character? A girl who ever in her LIFE breaks a guy’s heart before learning how not to lead them on has no character?

    I don’t know, that seems like a pretty adamant conclusion to come to…everyone around you must seem like constant monsters lol

    “In fact, you’re probably worse for having taken advantage of a woman who was in an abusive relationship.”

    lol

    “Morality is pretty clearly defined.”

    Okay, so where is this definition exactly? And does it hold up in foreign countries? Under different religions? In different cultures? For both sexes? In different socio-economic classes? At all ages of a person’s life?

    I don’t mind you making really adamant definitions like this as long as you have stats and cites to back it up beyond “I don’t like it” (that would be an emotional response instead of logical).

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    ““He banged 1,000 chicks.” What an epitaph.”

    Floored :)

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh

    “Impossible! There was no deception whatsoever. He laid out his expectations and described how I was failing to meet them. He expressed his unwillingness to go the distance under those conditions. 100% honest and fair. I had a choice, and I made it. Our marriage survived.”

    So in other words, he instilled dread and the fear of loss in you. It doesn’t matter if you re-word it because you love him, that’s “dark game”. :)

    Again I can explain the concept more in-depth if you like. Your husband isn’t a bad person for using a dark game tactic, I’m sure he did it subconsciously, just like you responded subconsciously.

    “Dark game” is just stuff that naturals and girls do that we backwards engineered. We didn’t invent it lol

    A lot of PUA concepts were created by this formula:

    1) “Aww man this bad thing happened to me… :(”
    2) “Fuck why does this keep happening to me???”
    3) “Wait a sec, I get it, they’re all doing blah to me…”
    4) (tries blah out and it works) “oooo…”
    5) (tries blah out again and again and it keeps working) “AHA!!”
    6) (explains the concept on a PUA forum and hundreds of PUAs follow steps 4 and 5 and add to the discussion and break down the nuances in the patterns)
    7) it becomes an offical tactic

    :)

    You said in your article or an earlier comment in this thread or something, I can’t remember, that original PUA theory was based on scientific studies. I can tell you flat out that it was not lol even tho Mystery throws in some evo-psych stuff to explain his concepts. I can link you to an audio clip of Tyler Durden from like 2005 laughing at scientific studies and how full of shit they are.

    PUAs have never respected scientific studies and hypothetical theories and extrapolations…all we respect is cold hard “hit the pavement” in-the-field experience and results.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @yareallypua

      I know you didn’t intend to stick around, so not sure if you’ll see this, but I did want to say one thing in closing. This says it all:

      all we respect is cold hard “hit the pavement” in-the-field experience and results.

      It explains why PUAs get such a bad rap and always will. It’s a completely self-centered philosophy that disregards the experience of other human beings. It’s the immoral application of an amoral set of tactics. Thank you for laying this out so clearly and unashamedly.

      It seems that in all the actions of men, besides the general difficulties of carrying them to a successful issue, the good is accompanied by some special evil, and so closely allied to it that it would seem impossible to achieve the one without encountering the other.

      Niccoló Machiavelli, The Discourses. 1517.

      Even Machiavelli specifically stated that this philosophy could not be ethically used by individuals for personal greed, profit, or self improvement. You’ve managed to outdo the Prince!

  • Underdog

    Morality is very subjective and varies from culture to culture / society to society. I think the only standard we should use is what’s biologically natural. It’s perfectly natural for a man to be promiscuous in a biological sense. But for a woman to have sex with that man without fear of consequences, however, is not. This may sound harsh, but don’t hate the player or the game — shame the sluts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Underdog

      It’s perfectly natural for a man to be promiscuous in a biological sense.

      Yeah, that’s why we have higher order thinking as human beings. It’s not perfectly natural in a moral sense, particularly when a man’s “gain” is a woman’s “loss.”

  • yareallypua

    @SusanWalsh

    “I memorize MM in about an hour.”

    lol would you like me to quiz you? That’s very impressive considering the Mystery Method DVDs contain hours and hours of teaching, and the book isn’t a skinny one. I’m sure you can get the “jist” in an hour, the same way I can get the “jist” that hairdressing involves making snips with scissors on hair and gel makes it stand up, but I don’t think you’d trust me to style your hair. :)

    “a woman can learn Game as well as you can”

    Don’t turn this into a Men VS Women debate because it’s not one. Women are completely capable of learning Game, who do you think we backwards engineered it from? lol We just took it a few dozen steps further than women do because we’re men who are driven to excel at the skillset. Women just don’t have any reason to learn something like the MM and even if they do, they have 20+ years of social programming to overcome just like men before the concepts are internalized except they don’t have the incentive to overcome that so at best they understand it the way I’d understand the 3 or 4 football games I’ve watched. Ya I get the jist of what’s going on, but I’m no expert and I definitely wouldn’t brag that I’m a pro and know everything in an hour lol

    Like I say, this isn’t a “men are better than women” battle like you seem to want to turn it into. This is just a logical discussion. :)

    “The truth is, a PUA who has literally devoted all of his time to Game is a rarity.”

    This I’ll agree with. Especially these days now that pickup is so mainstream, lots of guys just dabble in it then write it off. This comes back to the relativity thing I spoke about, where you’ve run into dozens of PUAs with Level 10 game as a Level 50 girl, but you haven’t met a Level 100 PUA and if you did you would have no idea you did. Again I don’t expect you to agree with that because that would conflict with the “women are super perceptive and omnipotent” belief society has drilled into everyone. I’m again saying it for the men in the room who are scared that girls will “totally know they’re running game”.

    One of the most common reactions across the board that newbies to pickup have is “I tried it out and was amazed, it worked EXACTLY like you guys said it would!! I couldn’t believe it!!” Then they panick because they weren’t really expecting it to work and it’s actually kind of scary that it DID work lol It flies in the face of all the “girls will just KNOW, instantly, the smart ones at least not the dumb slutty ho-bags” propaganda they’ve been force fed.

    There’s a period near the start of learning pickup where your entire mental thought process as an interaction is going on is like “hehehe I can’t believe I’m getting away with this!! She has NO IDEA I’m a nerd!!! ahahahahaa this is great!!” lol :) That fades quick though as you get to be Intermediate and you start running into issues with congruency and such where they CAN spot that something is off.

    This is all really complicated to explain, as I’m trying to quickly summarize like thousands of pages of PUA knowledge about multiple concepts in a couple paragraphs, but I can go into it more if you’d like lol

    “I focus on college girls, but only 2% of them get with 10 men in four years (including oral).”

    lol I’ve watched my natural buddy bang 100 girls this year (not literally watching him bang them lol), probably 80-ish of them were college aged (since he’s only 25 and actually went back to college himself now so he’s surrounded by them). I’m 30 and I still get 18-25 year olds regularly.

    Let’s just say I’m skeptical of your science compared to the combined anecdotes of thousands of PUAs. :)

    “The sex was shitty, and I was happy to steal away in the a.m. I never wanted to see those guys again, and avoided them on campus. I realized then, and for always, that I was not cut out for casual.”

    huh. So what you’re saying is you leaned to the right (ditching them, avoiding them, using them for sex), then learned that that lifestyle wasn’t for you and now you’re back in the middle.

    I thought you said there was no excuse, no compromise, not even for the sake of learning, etc. Do you classify yourself as having no character?

    “How could any woman think highly of a casual sex partner?”

    Wow, really? Man, no offense, but you are REALLY out of touch lol Even Sex & The City glorified the whole fuckbuddy situation and “it’s okay for women to like casual sex”. I’m not even entirely sure you’re serious with this question, but if you are it makes COMPLETE sense why you don’t understand game…you are completely out of touch with modern sexual relationships.

    I’m not making fun of you, I’m just stating a fact here. You understand there are tons of women who are cool with casual sex these days, right? And that fuckbuddies isn’t a taboo damaging horrible situation these days?

    “Sorry, but pics or it didn’t happen. Would any of them be willing to come online and testify on your behalf? :)”

    I’m still mind-blown this is even a thing you would question lol That’s like me saying “Pfft, cars don’t have AIRBAGS that just MAGICALLY pop out when you get in an accident. Pics or it didn’t happen please.” Like, how do you even respond to that lol

    I can cut and paste some of my text messages with girls if you like. But they’ll offend you. :)

    “I can tell you that as a mother, I would be deeply disappointed if my son dedicated his life to the pursuit of sex.”

    Carefuly, that’s how Betas are created. It’s perfectly healthy for a boy to be interested in sex and to pursue girls when he’s growing up. Don’t be that mom that ends up with a bitter MRA for a kid because one day he realized everyone around him was BSing him about how to interact with women lol

    “Sex should not be one’s life purpose.”

    I agree. So does the PUA community. Would you like me to link you videos, articles, etc. from top respected PUAs on exactly that subject? Because I have plenty. :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think there is probably a glitch within the sexual marketplace that prevents truly efficient buyer-seller-matching outcomes. PUAs are developing a legit skill in exploiting this glitch. Many women do go out with the hope of meeting someone, but they also may maintain the desire to be approached. Many men do go out with the hope of meeting someone, but for a variety of reasons they will not approach women.

    As a result, meetings that could have been satisfactory to both parties never occur and people leave empty-handed. By being willing to step up in a confident and at least moderately strategic way, the PUA is crossing this gap and making more “deals” happen than otherwise would.

    However, there is a troubling (though understandable from a marketing perspective) meme within some PUA-type sites that goes something like this: “Women don’t use objective, measurable search criteria when they are screening for mating opportunities.”

    There is no question why this assumption could be necessary: few PUA workshops would make any money if they really did drop the ultimate “Red Pill” bomb and told students something like, “Sorry, but a lot of you guys are fucked—and I don’t mean in the good way. Women want hot, highly educated badasses with money, dangerous skillsets, and large penises (so-called HEB-Ms or ‘he-bombs’, at least according to my understanding of current undergrad lexicon). In retrospect, you probably should have taken the money you spent on this program and spent it on a good GMAT prep course and a guide to investment banking interviews. Good luck out there; you are going to need it. Thanks.”

    On the contrary, those attending said workshops need to believe that they can alter their own attractiveness via the development of social skills, self-improvement plans, etc. I think this is healthy; the alternative for many would be to just give up. Perhaps there is a self-fulfilling prophecy at work. Seen as a kind of finishing school for men, the PUA community is providing a commendable service.

    However, it can go too far when we start saying that women really don’t know what they want (as opposed to what they *say* they want—that’s a different argument). This may be true to some extent, of course, because both men and women fall victim to a number of cognitive blindspots. The less comforting scenario is that this may also be a deliberate attempt by women to conceal the grim truth and say things that are politically acceptable. One potential problem with the assumption that women are just utterly incapable of introspection is that the female who is brutally honest may end up being attacked (which of course will eventually condition her to mask her true desires and lie about what she wants) .

    To my way of thinking, a female who can specify exactly what she is looking for in objective terms, devoid of flowery, vague, and emotive language (for example, I believe Sassy has stated that she would enjoy an HEB-M with a >7″ penis) is rather exciting. She’s completely dropped the pretense. On the other hand, such a level of technical detail could be absolute anathema to someone pitching a PUA bootcamp or related educational materials claiming that—just to be extreme here for theatrical effect—a former Parachute Regiment officer with Chris Helmsworth looks, top-tier education, and posh job as a metals trader is going to be no match for the PUA camp stereotype of an angry former nerd who has spent hours on the internet reading about how to develop skills in snarky sitcom-style banter, “alpha” body language, and kino escalation. It doesn’t help that so much can sound eerily similar to some of the “Jedi Mind Trick” promises made in years past by NLP proponents (NLP has been thoroughly discredited in academia).

    I realize that no one here is saying things this absurd, but I have heard some people making remarks that approximated this and my first thought was that these particular PUA gurus are actually far less dangerous to women than they are to desperate men. The message is seductive precisely because it tells some men what they really want to hear. Unfortunately, the ability of a hot woman to detect wannabes, screen for desired traits, bulldoze through life, and find and get what she wants may be severely underestimated.

    In my experience, many women do find ways to specify what they are looking for, and because of competitive pressures they are increasingly willing to take on the responsibility of the approach. Some of the smart ones may follow the “prestige” program and allow men to establish the SMP hierarchy rules for them, to stand back and let the guys identify the superheroes with the skills and traits that men themselves deeply respect, if not celebrate. HEB-Ms can be great accomplices here in that they hate manufactured alpha traits for the same reason that the fashion industry hates knock-offs: knock-offs dilute the brand power and conspicuous consumption signaling power of the real thing.

  • Kios

    “I’ve seen beautiful girls go for beta guys, who were originally thrilled, but then couldn’t really deal – usually things went south due to jealousy, possessiveness, or fear that the girl would be poached by some alpha stud.”

    Been there, done that!! It’s easy to get jealous when the woman is 2 points above you and men in her looks range and chatting her up occasionally like you aren’t even there!!! But that was in my early to mid 20′s, i’m more secure now.

    As for women liking intelligent men, yes, they do, but only if they can make their intelligence ‘interesting’, so to speak, and that’s where game/charisma enters the picture. Wit counts with smart women, knowledge less so. Save the ‘knowledge’ for your male buddies who are into similar things.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Batiat
    ““Sorry, but a lot of you guys are fucked—and I don’t mean in the good way. Women want hot, highly educated badasses with money, dangerous skillsets, and large penises (so-called HEB-Ms or ‘he-bombs’, at least according to my understanding of current undergrad lexicon). In retrospect, you probably should have taken the money you spent on this program and spent it on a good GMAT prep course and a guide to investment banking interviews. Good luck out there; you are going to need it. Thanks.””

    “these particular PUA gurus are actually far less dangerous to women than they are to desperate men.”

    I’ve just got to say that I thoroughly enjoyed reading this.

  • yareallypua

    @Bastiat
    “Women don’t use objective, measurable search criteria when they are screening for mating opportunities.”

    They do, but 1) they generally aren’t consciously aware of what those criteria ACTUALLY are, and 2) they aren’t what guys think they are.

    “Women want hot, highly educated badasses with money, dangerous skillsets, and large penises (so-called HEB-Ms or ‘he-bombs’, at least according to my understanding of current undergrad lexicon).”

    See point 2) above lol Don’t make me link videos and articles and shit on this, please. Pickup has been helping ugly-ass poor uneducated tiny-penised nerds get laid for a loooong time. This isn’t an “opinion”, this is fact, based on being out in the field WITH nerdy guys.

    Did you know that, like Field Reports, there are bootcamp reviews? Where people describe in detail the things they were taught, what happened when they went in-field with the instructor, how the principles applied, how their lives have changed since bootcamp, etc.? There are hundreds if not thousands of these for all the big name companies.

    Not every nerd gets laid after a weekend at bootcamp, but it’s simply false to chalk the “we can help you get girls even if you’re not a he-bomb” stuff up to just a marketing ploy. The PUA industry wasn’t created last night.

    Does anyone here even know how pickup BECAME an industry? It started out with guys teaching eachother for FREE. Why did they do that? Because this shit works and they wanted to share it with other nerds lol Down the road Mystery realized he could be charging $ for it and from there it spiraled into what it is now. But the origins were free knowledge and guys wanted to teach it and wanted to learn it because it WORKED. :)

    “Unfortunately, the ability of a hot woman to detect wannabes, screen for desired traits, bulldoze through life, and find and get what she wants may be severely underestimated.”

    Go out and try to “pull the wool over their eyes” for a while. You’ll laugh at the results. Why are some actors in movies better than others, even to “intellectual” people? It’s a similar concept but again another huge one that intertwines with a bunch of other concepts that I won’t get into unless someone wants me to lol Really it’ll start like 3 different tangents. :)

  • Kios

    Yar is correct. the reality is that humans are not entirely irrational, and therefore prone to external influence. I’ve used game in the past to hook up with women that were better looking than me and it often worked. Of course most of the time i attracted psychos but i think that speaks more about the way i used game, and the energy i was putting out there, than the usefulness of game itself.

    Not all men will be successful with game, because they are either inexperienced, or just haven’t developed their skills sets.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kios

      I’ve used game in the past to hook up with women that were better looking than me and it often worked.

      I think it’s very important to distinguish Game from PUA. PUA is a short-term approach for getting NSA sex. As you’ve seen, the ends (for “me”) justify the means (from “someone else”).

  • Kios

    oh and the fact that most women want ” hot, highly educated badasses with money, dangerous skillsets, and large penises” means nothing in the grand scheme of things, as there simply are not enough of those men to go around, and most women do not have the bait to attract them.

    Most men probably want girls that resemble supermodels though but they eventually settle for what they can get. Men understand the concept of settling, and are more likely to make peace with it. Women, on the other hand, are far less likely, for obivous reasons.

  • yareallypua

    “I’ve seen beautiful girls go for beta guys, who were originally thrilled, but then couldn’t really deal – usually things went south due to jealousy, possessiveness, or fear that the girl would be poached by some alpha stud.”

    lol ya that happens to PUAs when they start getting success too. They manage to land a 10 and don’t realize what dating a 10 ACTUALLY entails. From guys (better looking or more rich than you) constantly hitting on her (right in front of you, on her Facebook, at her office, at school, on the street, etc.), to her being phenomenally more confident and comfortable with the situation than the guy is…it’s a huge chaotic mess that blindsides most guys.

    That stuff doesn’t really happen when you’re dating average girls on the 5-8 looks scale lol

    Over time you learn to handle it though. You sort of grow into your big boy pants and accept that you deserve her. :) We call this concept “entitlement” and “understanding that you’re enough”

    You can find a bunch of videos about it on the rsdnation.com front-page, it’s one of Tyler’s favorite topics to talk about.

    The irony is when you take Entitlement to it’s extreme you actually come full circle to the “useless” advice your mom gave you of “just be yourself” lol But that’s a whole other mindfuck to explain on here. :)

    This is so much fun, I get to share KNOWLEDGE!!! lol. Few more hours and then I’m out from this site forever and wish you all the best of the luck with your learning social dynamics and hope everyone finds what they’re looking for, whether it’s a girlfriend, a wife, multiple girls to date, fuckbuddies, or just meeting new friends. :)

  • yareallypua

    @Kios
    “Of course most of the time i attracted psychos but i think that speaks more about the way i used game, and the energy i was putting out there, than the usefulness of game itself.”

    lol it does. No offense intended, I swear. :) This is actually a common sticking point/plateau Intermediate-ish PUAs tend to hit. There are a lot of psychological reasons for it but it mainly comes down to you attracting what you are and/or what you expect to attract (so a lot of PUAs who don’t handle the Red Pill well get jaded and bitter and think all women are fucked up cheating whore-bag horrible people…so who do you think they end up attracting? lol) and you not believing you deserve better so you don’t approach higher quality women or screen women as hard for “crazy”.

    This is actually a really important stage in a PUA’s development because it’s the point where he either keeps heading down the path of banging fucked up psycho chicks, or where he stops and goes “waitasec…I’m done with that shit” and starts upping the quality of the women he approaches. The stories where PUAs are banging intelligent high self-esteem successful women are generally from the PUAs who’ve passed through that plateau in the positive way. Once he’s been with a few quality girls, he can spot the crazy shitty ones a mile away and stays far far away lol

    Interestingly: Naturals tend to end up with the crazy ones because they’re not consciously developing their pickup skills so they tend not to reach a point where they decide “I’m putting so much work into developing myself as a man that I deserve a higher quality woman dammit!”. They just sort of float along banging whatever’s available until they decide to settle down with one.

  • Kios

    “ol it does. No offense intended, I swear. :)”

    None taken. I spotted it first, remember? ;-)

    “This is actually a common sticking point/plateau Intermediate-ish PUAs tend to hit. ”

    I’d say i was intermediate level back in the day, because i already had decent social skills and could talk to women, but i wasn’t great or anything. mostly lazy in fact.

    “There are a lot of psychological reasons for it but it mainly comes down to you attracting what you are and/or what you expect to attract (so a lot of PUAs who don’t handle the Red Pill well get jaded and bitter and think all women are fucked up cheating whore-bag horrible people…so who do you think they end up attracting? lol) and you not believing you deserve better so you don’t approach higher quality women or screen women as hard for “crazy””

    Yeah, i’m not sure about the fact that i was attracting women like myself necessarily, but i agree that a lot of guys that use pick up target specific kind of girls during the early to intermediate stages, and that a lot of these men probably still have self esteem issues that were never totally resolved along the way.

    I can spot the crazy ones a mile away now, but even since my looks started going downhill i stopped using game and started relying on money. LOL. Now i’m slowly having to resort to game again. Slowly. reluctantly. because i don’t like using money.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Yareally, I have no idea how to determine the veracity of boot camp reports, in-field pick-up videos, lay reports, etc. You seem more or less convinced that these are legit and that the PUA community is relatively free of scams. You are also willing to provide your own testimonials, of course, and these no doubt have made you feel more confident about the power of PUA-type training.

    I actually do believe that women want HEB-Ms, that the romance industry is well aware that they want HEB-Ms and that their consumer spending habits and masturbatory fantasies will reflect this, and that HEB-Ms can behave in ways that range from chivalric to moody to sociopathic and women will rationalize the behavior as attractive. In other words, one path to wild sexual success, for a man, is to become an HEB-M and then act however he damn pleases.

    Another path would be to behave like women believe a stereotypical HEB-M would behave. Note that this will not work very well in an environment in which reliable, objective trait-rating criteria is available to women, and that both women *AND* HEB-Ms could share an interest in trying to establish hook-up venues that provided such criteria.

    So why the apparent epic sexual conquests of the non-HEB-Ms in the PUA community? Well, for one thing, HEB-Ms are going to be extremely rare: let’s just take the four component traits—Hot Looks, Education, Badassedness, and Money and assume for statistical convenience that they are identically and independently distributed (in other words, being a badass doesn’t mean that one is rich, being good-looking doesn’t mean that one is well-educated, etc.—each trait will vary on its own).

    If an HEB-M is a man who is in the top 10% in each category and the categories are independent in this way, you can run the math yourself and see that he’ll be very rare in society at large. The HEB-Ms who are interested in LTRs will be off the market quickly unless there is an terrible inefficiency somewhere (i.e., he’s serving in Afghanistan or something), and the HEB-Ms who are not interested in LTRs may or may not frequent the club scene—this is a guy who could be one of the last bastions of the traditional romantic date.

    The fact of the matter is that there just are not enough of these guys to satisfy every female consumer who wants one. They will command a very high price on the market. Most women will ultimately have to sight and make due with a fictional vampire version and a companion BOB (“battery-operated boyfriend”), and then seek out a more realistic real-world mate.

    My own pet theory is that successful PUAs–and some of the written material is very good and insightful—have learned to codify some of the behavioral traits that women would expect HEB-Ms to demonstrate (such a confidence and decisiveness and other primal alpha-hunter/killer qualities). I think that the PUA’s list of attraction triggers represents a set of leverage points that may result in the woman coming to the conclusion, in some holistic sense, that the PUA is in fact highly attractive in one or more of those key evolutionary search criteria that the HEB-M represents (Procreate, Provide, Protect).

    If this were not true, then it would be akin to suggesting that a woman is having consensual and casual sex with a man who she knows in advance offers substandard genetic material, would be unable to provide for her and their (apparently sickly) offspring now and in the future, and would furthermore be unable to defend her and said offspring against physical threats. I think that, one way or another, PUA tactics must exploiting and piggybacking on innate HEB-M-seeking attraction wiring.

    What do you think?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    More fun too. Gay guys are Fabulous!

    They are like girlfriends that can outshine you! :D
    Seriously some of the manlier men I meet have sex with other men (they don’t identify themselves as homosexual though which my tiny heterosexual brain doesn’t get) but the gay best friend of sex and the city is the second unicorn for females in this culture. It doesn’t work like that.

    PBS once did a special on explaining Special and General Relativity, and it was pretty great. I have no idea who the producer, writer or director was.

    Had you watched Einstein’s big idea? Is really good tying up all the aspects of EMC2 and all the people that contributed to that shining moment on science. It has the mandatory PC “woman ahead of her time” but aside from that is really good.

    As for women liking intelligent men, yes, they do, but only if they can make their intelligence ‘interesting’, so to speak, and that’s where game/charisma enters the picture. Wit counts with smart women, knowledge less so. Save the ‘knowledge’ for your male buddies who are into similar things.

    I know outliers reports don’t count here but I can’t understand anything about Warhammer and/or car wars (although I lended my batmobile to the cause) I still find my husband’s ability in it valuable because he has fun, he is passionate about it (and I think passion is one of my big panty wetters) and is happy and if he is happy I’m happy. So yeah just though I mention it for FYI purposes.

    @yareallypua
    I will say that even though your knowledge is impressive and I agree with some ideas about why Game and women have such a problematic relationship once women discover it, your ethics are not. Sex is like money if you think is okay to do anything to get money you might be rich but not a better person that someone that tries to earn it honestly.But then this is a personal choice and I’m pretty sure that if there were more honest ways for men to have at the very least a relationship the PUA’s business wouldn’t had grown like it has. Still profiting from the fall of a system and their collateral loss is not the way to build civilization and sadly for me I want our species to go and and thrive.
    That being said Does PUA’s training can make a woman fall in love with that man? Or do they think that a woman cannot love a man for real? Just curious.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @yareally
    “lol ya that happens to PUAs when they start getting success too. They manage to land a 10 and don’t realize what dating a 10 ACTUALLY entails. From guys (better looking or more rich than you) constantly hitting on her (right in front of you, on her Facebook, at her office, at school, on the street, etc.), to her being phenomenally more confident and comfortable with the situation than the guy is…it’s a huge chaotic mess that blindsides most guys.”

    This paragraph made me immediately think of the relationship between Samuel Witwiki and his smoking-hot girlfriend in Transformers III. One of the villains was seducing his girlfriend right in front of him. I remember thinking “Sam, don’t even trip off of that jerk. He’s trying to deliberately alpha-male you. Your girl loves you. Stand your ground, man!”

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “Seriously some of the manlier men I meet have sex with other men (they don’t identify themselves as homosexual though which my tiny heterosexual brain doesn’t get)”

    Totally off-topic…

    I’ve got my own theories on sexual decisions and gender. I think that “gay” is a gender that one is born with, defined by mindset and other things, not just the sex act. Here’s something to consider…I’ve met gay virgins. If sex acts defined “gay” then do gay virgins exist? I think so.

    I believe that heterosexual-gendered men can have sex with a man and still be heterosexual, because “heterosexual” is a gender.

  • yareallypua

    @Bastiat

    “Yareally, I have no idea how to determine the veracity of boot camp reports, in-field pick-up videos, lay reports, etc.”

    We could use Occam’s Razor. Which is more likely: That tens of thousands of guys have all created accounts (or one guy creating thousands of accounts?) to write fake stories about pickup that are probably 90% consistent across the board (I didn’t say all Field Reports were true, I said the ones that are fake are usually pretty easy to spot but even if fake ones slip through if they’re incongruent with the thousands of consistent ones then it’s pretty clear what’s going on) for the last 10 years, and all people who’ve put up pickup videos have paid actors to act in those videos and pretend to like them, etc. etc. etc.

    Or that it’s safe to say the majority of them are just true anecdotes and actual live footage of stuff that you could SEE IN ACTION for yourself and EXPERIENCE for yourself, if you dedicated yourself to the art the way a lot of advanced PUAs have.

    “PUA community is relatively free of scams.”

    There are scams for sure. But it’s nowhere near what the game haters who didn’t understand how to make game work for them would have you believe lol You can pretty much trust the big-name companies.

    But hey, judge for yourself. http://www.rsdnation.com/articles/all – There’s hours and hours and hours of completely 100% free information on there. Go ahead and spend a weekend watching it. You’ll find it’s not as evil and scary and sneaky and underhanded sounding as the stereotype would have you believe. (again I link to RSD just ’cause they’re at the forefront of modern PUA tech and they put out really solid high quality videos and articles compared to other companies)

    “You are also willing to provide your own testimonials, of course, and these no doubt have made you feel more confident about the power of PUA-type training.”

    Shit man, the stories I could tell you about the adventures I’ve had and the girls I’ve met and the things I’ve gotten up to since I started studying pickup, would blow your mind…lol You would, in fact, think I was just making them up. Until you spent as long in the field as I had and then you’d go “Oh ya, a similar thing happened to me too, cool.”

    “I actually do believe that women want HEB-Ms”

    You can believe whatever you like. Some people believe in unicorns and dragons. This just tells me you don’t go out and pick up girls and/or hang out with guys who pick up girls.

    I state once again, PUA is not about beliefs or theories. It’s about data, collected by thousands of men and compiled together into consistent principles/concepts. If we found that we all had to be HEB-Ms, we’d all be trying to be HEB-Ms.

    “In other words, one path to wild sexual succes