In any discussion of what women want, no trait gets more attention than social status. Acknowledged as a key female attraction cue, it’s also frequently referred to as social dominance. It’s easy to see why. One need only look around to see that men in positions of leadership and social dominance are highly desired by women. Ogi Ogas, in his bestselling book A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the World’s Largest Experiment Reveals About Human Desire, confirms its universal appeal:
Study after study has demonstrated the erotic appeal of male dominance. Women prefer the voices of dominant men, the scent of dominant men, the movement and gait of dominant men, and the facial features of dominant men…Scientists believe that the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex may be responsible for processing cues indicating social status or dominance, and it appears that almost all female brains are susceptible to dominance cues.
Furthermore, social dominance is not conferred by women, it’s awarded by other men in a process of intrasexual competition for dominance and leadership. Men continually compete for dominance in social interactions with one another. The men who achieve the greatest rank among their peers may then display that dominance as a powerful advantage in attracting women for sex.
On the other hand, women associate very masculine faces with negative traits such as coldness and dishonesty. Women also perceive very dominant males as more likely to cheat and divert resources away from the family. This may be of little or no concern to women who prioritize short-term mating. For long-term mating, however, the female is faced with the challenge of optimizing the combination of leadership and provider traits.
Until now, scientists have not understood how humans evolved to prioritize pair-bonding over promiscuity, a critical development that laid the foundation for the modern family. A new study proposes that it’s entirely attributable to female choice. Women evolved to prefer cooperative, emotionally nurturing providers over physically dominant males:
Pair bonding supplanted promiscuity in human evolution when faithful females began choosing good providers as mates, a study finds. Evolutionary biologists have struggled to explain how pair bonding and the nuclear family structure took root in humans, as primate groups typically establish dominance-driven hierarchies that restrict mating privileges to a few high-ranking males.
…Using simple mathematical models, Sergey Gavrilets revealed that the most commonly proposed theories for human pair bonding are biologically unrealistic. Then, incorporating among other factors the evolution of female choice and faithfulness, the researcher devised a model showing how pair bonding can represent a key adaptation underscoring the uniqueness of human evolution.
The author proposes that low-ranked males likely began attracting mates by focusing almost exclusively on becoming the best providers, a strategy which had the added benefits of enhancing female fertility and bolstering the survival of their offspring. Over evolutionary time, the model indicates that all but the highest-ranking males would shift to provisioning females who had evolved a high sense of fidelity. The findings reveal that female choice factored critically in human evolution.
That begs the obvious question – if women have evolved to prefer men who provide both intangible and tangible resources (dads) over less agreeable or nurturing mates (cads), why does research show that women reward dominant displays?
Why do women prefer dominant men?
Since the 1987 landmark study revealing the female preference for dominance in males, scholars have theorized that women would have preferred men most likely to provide them with resources such as food and protection from danger. In addition, the “sexy sons” hypothesis states that women would have been eager to pass along dominant genes to their own offspring.
Sadalla, Kenrick, and Vershure (1987) published evidence indicating that women prefer men who are high in dominance over men who are low in dominance as potential dates (i.e., potential short-term relationship partners) and rate them as more attractive.
It seems likely that Erik von Markovik, aka Mystery, who studied evolutionary psychology to codify Game, would have relied heavily on this study. Since his focus was on short-term rather than long-term mating, this research finding would have proved valuable and highly relevant to his efforts.
However, Snyder, Kirkpatrick, and Barrett (2008) questioned the validity of the original findings. They observed a lack of consensus among scholars regarding what comprises social dominance. They also wondered how female preferences differed for casual sex vs. marriage:
Since [Sadalla et al, 1987], despite numerous studies pointing to limitations of this result, it seems that a simplistic version of their conclusion— that ‘‘women prefer dominant mates’’—has become conventional wisdom in psychology and related fields.
We wish to reopen the analysis of this mate preference phenomenon for scholars of romantic relationships with the following goals.
First, we intend to clarify and reexamine Sadalla and colleagues’ (1987) initial findings. In the pursuit of this goal, we argue that there is a problematic lack of consensus regarding what dominance as a construct is and suggest that subsequent attempts to clarify Sadalla and colleagues’ work (Jensen-Campbell, Graziano, & West, 1995) were insufficient.
Second, we provide evidence suggesting that women’s preferences in regard to status are contingent on several factors, including (a) the distinction between prestige-based and dominance-based status, (b) the social context in which the behavior is observed, and (c) the particular dimension of desirability being assessed.
In their published paper The Dominance Dilemma, they shared results from three studies conducted with female students at UCLA and the College of William and Mary. For the purposes of these studies, they defined dominance as “forced or coerced leadership,” characterized by aggression and other domineering tactics in the pursuit of agentic self-interest. Dominance leads subordinates to submit to a dominant male via intimidation or fear. They tend to maintain greater physical distance from the dominant male and maintain less eye contact.
Conversely, prestige is defined as “freely conferred status” by peers in recognition of special abilities and skills. Peers benefit from association with skilled individuals, as it is more efficient to copy their expertise than engage in trial and error learning. The prestigious individual is honored, revered and praised by subordinates, and “respond[s] with self-deprecation. Prestigious individuals freely offer information and counsel. Because of this free exchange of status for information, prestigious individuals may appear to be more kind, generous, and willing to help than dominant individuals.”
The research by Snyder et al revealed several key findings:
- When given the choice between dominance and prestige, women demonstrate a clear preference for a high-prestige male over a high-dominance male.
- Women prefer low-dominance males for both long-term and short-term mating, but the preference is stronger when seeking a long-term partner.
- Women prefer high prestige partners over low prestige partners, and this preference is also stronger for long-term vs. short-term mating.
- Women find dominant behaviors attractive in the context of athletic competition, but penalize them for both short- and long-term mating.
In this light, distinguishing between dominance and prestige is essential to enhancing our understanding of female sexuality and attraction. Overall, the research suggests that women are not attracted to disagreeable males, i.e. jerks and assholes, they’re attracted to men who earn the respect and admiration of other men, and who display kindness and generosity. The degree to which women penalize dominance vs. prestige is contextual, based on their own mating priorities, i.e. short-term vs. long-term.
It should be noted that dominance and prestige are alternate, but not entirely mutually exclusive, pathways to social status. Ironically, fraternity membership and athletics may connote prestige rather than dominance, even as its members often prioritize casual sex and engage in dominant behaviors, particularly towards women.
Fraternities, which generally advertise themselves as offering both male camaraderie and access to high value females, are presumably selective in identifying males who can uphold or even improve the organization’s reputation. They court these males energetically, even arranging hookups for them in some cases. (In the documentary Spitting Game, one fraternity brother at the University of Georgia explained that girls who have sex with three brothers earn the designation of “Toaster.” High value male pledge targets are directed to Toasters at parties during Rush.)
The school athlete is perhaps best positioned to attract his female classmates, as he is rewarded with prestige for teamwork and excites female interest by displaying dominant behavior on the field.
Unfortunately for women, a male’s having achieved a high level of prestige is no guarantee of agreeable behavior with the opposite sex, particularly before he is fully mature. Indeed, he will be influenced heavily by his peer culture, which tends to prioritize douchiness, i.e. dominance, over “good guy” honesty and self-deprecation.
The implications for women are clear:
- Seek men who have earned prestige from their male peers via their abilities and skills.
- Judge a man by the company he keeps, and how much he is genuinely loved and respected by others.
- Avoid men who tend toward aggressive and controlling tactics, except on the playing field.
- Expect men engaging in casual sex rather than relationships to display more dominance, as it is less penalized in a short-term mating context.
- Men with earned prestige have much higher emotional intelligence than men with self-serving, agentic behaviors. Look for depth of emotional expression in the men you date. The emotions need not be focused on you, but a man should feel strong love and loyalty for the things and people he cares about.
- Graduate from college and date five years older!
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I want to be right. Or, as I like to put it, I want my knowledge and thinking to be accurate.
If I am wrong, come at me with both barrels and I will, ultimately, thank you for it.
If I am wrong, then I am wrong.
Nor were you qualified to speak intelligently about the sexual experiences and mindset of college kids. Yet, you applied yourself and have made huge advances, and, I, for one, and grateful and more educated.
Does that mean that you should apply the same effort to racial issues? Not necessarily, especially since there are only 24 hours in a day.
But there is not issue that even comes close to Race as a taboo.
For all the lip service that the like of NPR pay to “having a dialogue” that try like hell to make sure that the narrative stays the same.
So, I will continue to approach Racial issues no differently than I have approached the issues of our modern SMP. And if I ruffle some feathers and have some person call me some sort of hateful, racist HBD’er, so be it.
Interracial dating can also be thought of as international dating. Asian guys in America do really spectacularly well with girls in Asia, and can get a wife very easily, though they do run the risk of getting a gold digger. Most of the time the girl genuinely sees him as higher status. But overall they have it “easier” in a sense than white nerdy guys in America, who generally don’t have that option to go to a poorer country and get a white girl, who would genuinely look up to him. But they can get an Asian or other ethnicity girl who would. So that’s what you see happen for white nerdy guys who don’t mind dating interracially.
This is generalizing (not all Asian men are like this), but Asian men tend to treat women like inferiors. It’s still a very patriarchal culture where men can cheat on their wives and have mistresses without much repercussion, and it happens a lot in China and other parts of Asia. You can see an Asian husband and think he’s “feminine” or whatever, but chances are high that he’s cheated way more times than most American husbands. I think that has an influence on foreign women preferring white men. Internationally white men have the best reputation for caring about women’s feelings, wanting to protect women, and generally being “white knights.” (Yeah I have a thing for the knight in shining armor archetype. And swords.) These are huge positives for women who are or had been subject to greater instability outside of the U.S.
I think Anacaona can relate to this. For me, if a white guy seems like the type to cheat, be promiscuous, and the opposite of protective, that’s a big turn-off, and overrides any kind of attractiveness or “swagger” he might have. The guys with “dark game” are about as sexy to me as big nasty spiders. Basically I was overloaded with fear and dread already from my non-American upbringing, so any man adding to that would be over-gaming. In my marriage I seek reassurance from my husband without any dread or instability game on his part, because that dread was drilled into me by the culture into which I was born.
Hi Jason,
I hear what you’re saying here.
“if dating an upper echelon black woman (let’s say 8.5+, which you seem to put yourself in).”
—-
Women cannot (even though, I have seen many try to) really, in actually, rate their own attractiveness. I remember joining POF about three years ago and I allowed other members to rate my looks/pictures on a scale of 1 – 10, and on average 9 was the number that came up the most. If you ask me to rate myself on the 1 to 10 scale the number would be an 8. However, I don’t have to look at myself as much as others do, unless I sat in front of mirror all day.
I know how irritated others get when attractive people acknowledge their own attractiveness. They are often seen as being immodest and they are expected pretend that they don’t know how appealing they are to others (how could they not know, really). I know when you’re considered less attractive you don’t want to feel threaten, when it is the less attractive among us who validate attractive people’s looks the most. Go figure.
——-
“Think something along the lines of Keri Hilson.”
It is interesting that you brought up her name because I am often told that we resemble.
Ref evpsych. It’s all assumptions. Nobody’s ever seen a cave man doing the club scene, or a cave woman with wingmen. Ever.
However. Search for “neanderthal” “finger length”. Not only do neanderthal men have the digit ratio indicating higher in utero testosterone and thus aggressiveness, promiscuity, and so forth, so do what we can find of anatomically modern humans.
I have no idea what this means for those days, nor for these days. But it would seem reasonable to believe there were fewer beta behaviors and probably a good deal more of what might be called “dark game”, ranging to coercion. In addition, there is evidence of female infanticide, which means the hunting band might have eight males and, perhaps four or five fertile females. Not sure who chose who and how.
Anyway, point is, evpsych isn’t a science and there is no research, there being no cave men on whom to run studies.
It’s all assumptions.
Feminists usually dislike evpsych since TBTN events won’t undo hard wiring, nor will guilt-tripping.
As to race issues; My daughter is, as of this very moment, interviewing for a job as a HS teacher in another school. The one where she’s taught for some years has become considerably more diverse–like the Detroit Pistons when they were hot would have been entirely diverse except for Bill Laimbeer–and she’s been assaulted twice.
She wants another place, one not so diverse. Racist.
I meant: know when you’re considered less attractive you don’t want to feel THREATENED…
Hope, I know you’re not talking about Asian-American males. They are generally betas in every sense of the word.
Richard A – “She wants another place, one not so diverse. Racist.”
She isn’t alone. I see a dwindling population of middle-class white folks around parts of my town, mostly because they are feeling the pinch from increases in section 8 housing nearby. (there are dozens of abandoned/foreclosed properties around, and section 8 housing is a popular way to get them “back in service”, although I question for how long since many of the people living on it tend to take very bad care of the homes they are given. I guess when you get something for free, you don’t value it much…) In fact, there are parts of town where the only non-minority folks are older and retired. They are really stuck, because the housing market tanked AND their property values are further lowered by the influx of less than savory types.
I don’t believe they are racist at all. But the truth is, when you begin to fear for your safety and the safety of your family, sometimes running is the easiest option. We live on the edge of town away from the worst areas, yet we still see the effects. We bought our children a basketball hoop for Easter and put it on our garage out back in the alley. Several neighborhood kids asked if they could use it, and I told them as long as they were respectful I didn’t care. Well, within a week we had the police knocking on our door because one of them threw a rock and broke our neighbors window. They asked us to NOT grant permission for these kids to use the hoop. So, the next time they asked, I told them no and why. Well, two days later our hoops was ripped down, and the neighbors garage had the word PUSSY spray painted all over the door.
So now I’m looking at video surveillance systems for our property. Yeah, we could probably leave, but financially it would make life miserable, and to be honest where we are is close to work and shopping. Besides, part of me is too stubborn to give up. I have been in the area all my life, and I was here WAY before them. If we all keep running, it will only get worse. So instead, I and a few others are starting a neighborhood watch. I can’t say it will do any good, but it can’t hurt. And at least the punks around here will know that everyone isn’t afraid of them.
Underdog, aspersions aside, she was saying that Asian men in America can travel (back) to their “mother” country and be seen as big shots. Whether this gets them a lovely girl or gold digger is another issue, but they can clean up.
Sue: “I’m all for beta guys getting right in there and fighting for their share. Seriously. And for the record, I’m not backing down re beta traits. Don’t throw those good comfort traits away forever – you’re going to need them when you want a LTR.”
You sound a bit scared that some men will be perfectly happy with no LTRs at all, if they can get short-term. I sure am going to advise my boys to be very stingy with commitment.
Telling a born-and-bred beta to not throw away beta traits is sort of pointless. It is a bit like telling a kid “Now, now, don’t remember how to fall off the bicycle – you’ll need it if you want to stop” after learning to ride.
@Ramble
The generations of Asian-American males that I grew up with, who are usually 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants. Have no desire to do such thing. Maybe the 1st generation or 1.5 generation did, I don’t know. But for dudes who were grew up in America, they have no desire to do that. So from my perspective it makes no sense to say Asian guys cheat on their wives when there’s a discussion that Asian guys are undesirable in America — unless you’re talking about Asian guys in Asia.
Susan, what Ted is talking about in 1057 (and, to a degree, what Richard addressed in 1054) is basically what I am talking about.
I am assuming that Ted is not some hateful racist. Yet, he is, basically, forced to live with “bad” diversity. And, he will probably have or develop politics to deal with it.
Yet, had he opened a recording studio in Pittsburgh that became really successful, he might have moved to the north side and associated with a whole different set of people. He might have been surrounded by “good” diversity and had the opportunity to develop some progressive politics.
Is Ted a worse person in the first scenario and a better person in the second? IMO, No.
And I am not going to look down my nose at his possibly “racist” attitudes towards some of his neighbors.
He would probably much prefer that he never had to think much about these things and simply be surrounded by people who are smart enough to tutor others.
But, he is sorta forced to NOT be color blind and he has little opportunity to say that he is color blind, even though he might like if he could be. (If that makes sense.)
So, I will say to Ted in his changing neighborhood what I will say to short Asian Men and average looking black women: fight the good fight and I will be rooting you on.
(Which, btw, is the same thing I say to average looking sweethearts in this fucked up SMP.)
Fair enough, but I wanted to make sure that you did not misconstrue what Hope was trying to communicate (assuming that I interpreted it correctly).
Liza,
That’s awesome. I find her extremely attractive, now just need to find a look-a-like IRL so that I can approach.
Underdog, you are right; I haven’t had that many interactions with Asian American men. When I was growing up in China, all the guys were Chinese (it was before China opened up to foreigners), but here in the U.S. only 3-4% or so of the population is Asian, and many are not Chinese but Japanese, Korean, Indian, Thai, etc. There’s not so much social overlap between the sub-groups.
What you say about 2nd and 3rd generation Asian Americans is interesting. I guess I would be considered 1st generation or 1.5. The traditional Asian culture is about female submissiveness and male superiority; families want boys. That could be changing, but I don’t think it is changing all that much. Do you think that they are “just like” the white nerdy guys in terms of ideas about gentlemanliness and protectiveness of women?
There is also a numbers game stacked against meeting another like-minded Asian guy, that it’s much easier for Asian girls to go for the more common white guy. My husband is an INFJ, high IQ and STEM, a very rare combination, less than 1% of the population. Searching for less than 1% among an already small % would be really, really hard. To use another example, when I was on dating sites, only white guys messaged me. I had no male Asian American coworkers until this job, and the two here are both married. I can’t really comment on the black experience, but that’s the experience I had.
Ramble, as far as colorblindness goes, I will say that race is certainly a huge factor. But it’s more nuanced than that, and it’s about the combination of race, color, appearance, socioeconomic status, religion, education, income, social circles, charisma, status, and overall attractiveness (including weight especially).
One can be white, unemployed, educated, obese, and have negative social skills, which would result in undesirable outcomes in life. The upper class nowadays is less about race than being high on the other factors, like income, social status, shared social circles / hobbies and attractiveness.
Thus I don’t see a lot of point in dwelling on just race, when it comes to the sexual market or when it comes to the overall society. This could again be a part of my upbringing in a racially homogenous culture. In the “class” I grew up in, women try very hard to improve their looks, and men try very hard to improve their educational background and social status. Families pushed kids hard to do so, and warned kids away from lower class, criminal types. Since all were the same race, there was no political correctness connotation to any of it.
I never said otherwise.
Sure, Obsidian – I’ll bite, but after you answer my previous question:
Obsidian said:
“Equally fascinating, is the fact that as you readily report, how white guys seemingly can and will bolt at the first signs of trouble; ”
_________________
How’d you come up with this statement?
Ana: But I had meet a lot of IR I will say the rarest group is not BW/WM but Asian guys with any other group, like I had only seen one couple were the guy was Asian.
Thras: In the United States as of 2010 8.2 per cent of Asian husbands had non-Asian wives…
I think this is a function of SES/neighborhood. I see a lot of STEM Asian/Indian guys–especially doctors–with white wives in my UMC neighborhood. They’re the new Nice Jewish Guys due to their reputation of being good providers who treat women well.
FWIW, I breifly had an Oxbrigde educated attorney East Indian BIL that I adored. When he and my SIL divorced, I asked DH if he could dump his sister and keep the BIL. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way.
I once dated a girl who, as a little girl, witnessed her father cheating on her mother. He kissed the woman right in front of his daughter and then told her not to tell Mommy.
Well, long story short, they divorced. The cheating husband’s parents went the betrayed wife and told her that they were on her side, and that if she needed anything, they would do what they can.
Interestingly enough, he was quite beta.
Ramble, I’m just pointing out that is probably where Susan’s perspective is. I think the lower middle and middle classes worry about ghettoization the most, because it’s more likely to happen to them. The upper class neighborhoods don’t change, but the lower middle neighborhoods can turn bad quickly. So I don’t blame them for being less “colorblind” one bit. I can’t afford to be colorblind either, because well, I AM colored.
@SW
This is intimate conversation among friends – of course they are not literally blind to their differences, but they deal with them the way we would have dealt with one of us being a carrot top, or a tow-head, or having a ton of freckles.
I have noticed this as well, and I’m sometime shocked at the how different their view of racial differences (as sort of interesting but not really important) is from what we were brought up with.
My basement tends to be a big hang out venue for a pretty diverse group of boys. One kid is Jewish/Indian/Afro-Caribeanean. He has a Jewish maternal grandmother which makes him Jewish as far as Jews are concerned, but he looks like a light-skinned black. I once had to referee a debate about just what this kid was. The Jewish boys claimed him as Jewish, some other kids subscribed to “You are what you look,” and a Hindu kid just kept repeating, “If he says he’s Jewish, then he’s Jewish. It’s his choice.” The whole damn thing made me very uncomfortable, while the boys thought nothing of it.
Absolutely, and neither would I.
So, if Ted had less “progressive” politics than Susan, I would not think any less of him.
But if someone is going on about how they ARE “color blind” and so are their children and how they might one day have beautiful mocha colored grand children, well, I might point out that their “progressive” views are not nearly as superior as they might think.
Does that make me an asshole? Probably.
@dogsquat:
Sure-i say what i do, not based on any hard metrics but rather what i perceive from self reports like yours. The truth of the matter is, as thras has pointed out that bm/ww couples have faced far and away MORE virulent racism (i dont think what you experienced was racism at all btw) AND VIOLENCE INCLUDING DEATH, in far greater numbers than any white man has; yet those black men hang in there; by your own admission, the price of admission if you will, was to your mind, just. Too. High.
I think the answer to why this is in both instances, is to be found in evopsych-its worth it to a brotha to hang in there because by definition he has a woman of high status; while the reverse would be true for guys like you.
I fully do not expect you or anyone else in a “swirl” situation to own up to any of this; lets be frank a lot of this is operating on the subconscious level, barely a blip in our conscious minds. Nor does it mean youre a bad guy or shes a bad gal or anything like that.
But it does, i think, inform the wider discussion of human mating, and wy we make the choices that we do.
Your turn; you were saying?
O.
Im about to finally hop on my netbook in a minute so i can really type in a proper manner; but before i do let me say this:
Im 100% behind ramble on everything hes said. I get where ms walsh is coming from but lets be honest, she IS the kind people murray talks about in his “coming apart”. She lives in what he calls a “super zip” that effectively insulates her, her family, her friends, her world-from the very real downsides of integration. And make no mistake, there ARE downsides.
Both my dad and grand dad served, usmc-dad in korea, grand dad in ww2. My dad used to tell about his time in korea, and i quote now,
“i had to fight the koreans in the daytime and fight the crackers at night”
My grand dad-a drill instructor in the corp during “the good war”-one of the relative few at that time-was forced to eat on the other side of the barracks along w/the rest of the black marines. This, despite the fact that white marine corps officers would often seek him out for his opinion on training ops for white troops. All that “band of brothers” stuff comes with a very huge caveat. Neither of them wanted me to serve because of it.
The idea that being in the same space breed commonality is, to quote the dark lord, a pretty lie. It works only under certain conditions, and even then those conditions have to be heavily monitored. Hence all the thought policing that is so strong in “swpl” circles and the like.
A major theme of the manosphere, is that the people of your class ms walsh, have basically foisted a kind of “diversity for thee, but not for me” existence and mindset-while they avoid the nasty realities of diversity actually working themselves out. I think theres a there there, to be frank.
Just my two cents.
O.
@Ramble
The cheating husband’s parents went the betrayed wife and told her that they were on her side, and that if she needed anything, they would do what they can.
I imagine that maintaining goood relations with the grandaughter was a big factor in the lifespan of that relationship.
My BIL and SIL had no kids together, so we weren’t worried about staying engaged with nieces or nephews. We did attempt to discourage the divorce, but SIL wanted out–mostly due to her own instability. I continued briefly to maintain contact with BIL, but he moved on and appears to have found a more stable woman than SIL. I’m sure he’s better off now.
@Ms. J:
The incident in your basement with all the neighborhood boys was interesting. May I ask you, please:
You mentioned that the boy in question was of Jewish, Indian (presumably Hindu) and Afro-Caribbean background. I noticed that the latter wasn’t mentioned during your recounting of the incident.
Did it come up and if it did, what happened? If it did not, why do you think so?
Thanks!
O.
They continued to be fairly close (Husbands parents and betrayed ex-Daughter In Law) after many years.
The ex-husband cheated with and ultimately married some chick that was in an odd religious sect (cult?). He then drank the Kool Aid.
They never cared for, nor did anyone else.
The kids remained in consistent contact with their (cheating) father and he and the ex-Wife (their mother) maintained a pretty cordial relationship after the divorce.
“They never cared for, nor did anyone else.”
I meant to say that they, his parents, never cared for the new woman…the one in the odd religious sect.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I for one am having a ball here!-by all means, let’s continue…
I’d just like to give a moment to respond to a question posed by my two interlocutors – Ms. Liza, and Ms. Sassy; both have asked, what does Black Women selecting or not selecting, for that matter, Black Men on the basis of intelligence, have to do with them specifically, since they both have no desire whatsoever for Black Men, and Hooking Up Smart in general?
I think this is a very, very important question – not for the answer, as far as I’m concerned – but rather, for the reasons it was asked in the first place.
Indeed, my initial question that has set off this 1,000-plus and counting(!) comment thread has absolutely nothing to do with either Ms. Liza nor Ms. Sassy; they were quite keen to make their views known, and I for one respect it on principle alone.
But, when it comes to Hooking Up Smart, here things get a bit more interesting…one the one hand, in theory at least, my question should be every bit as germane as any other, in that it DOES have to do with relationships, particularly involving many of the themes that are common in this venue – LTRs, Women selecting Men of good character (and yes, intelligence and character do tend to be correlated – another very hot topic) and so forth; but, the “tone” of the “voices” of Ms. Liza and Ms. Sassy, to this Brotha’s ear – keyword there – is key.
Because, when you really get down to it, what they are both “saying”, in a very real sense, is that Black relationships, really don’t have a place here at Hooking Up Smart; recall how both ladies stated very clearly how they fully intend to get as far away from “African American culture” as possible – and remember their mention of “ghetto, low-class and ignorant” Black folks. Toss in the fact that the person who posed such a question to begin with, just happened to have been a self-identified Brotha – and whew, we are off to the races. Pardon the pun.
I honestly do think that if, say, Ms. Royale With Cheese – a newbie voice here at HUS, courtesy of yours truly, by way of VSB – had come on here and said something along the lines of, “Hey y’all, I’m new here and I’m very much interested in learning more to improve my relationships with Black Men” – I honestly don’t think Ms. Liza nor Ms. Sassy would have given her much of a workout over it. To be sure, they might have rolled their eyes, but I think they would have simply kept right on rollin’.
It is me – in the person of a Black Man – posing such a question in the manner that I did, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with them – that set them both off. Remember now, I smoked Ms. Liza out with my comment referencing the “I Won’t Settle For Less!” anthem very common among a certain cohort of Sistas in Black America; and in the case of Ms. Sassy, she was keen, as Thras has noted, to point out the low SMV of Black Men in comparison to White Men – a point that was never in dispute, and one that I readily conceded.
So, in many ways, to me at least, this question, is a very, very pregnant one indeed.
There is one other thing I wish to add.
The reason why I pose the question, in this forum, is because to be frank, there simply isn’t a Black venue that matches the level of smart, intelligent and thoughtful discourse on these issues, as HUS, and I’ve said as much in places where Blacks are in abundance, like VSB – Ms. Royale With Cheese is my witness. And I want to be a part of that conversation (much to the Swirlin’ Sistas’ chagrin, it would seem). But perhaps the most important reason why I pose this question, is because at the end of the day, Black Relationships, while they may mean less than zero to others, do mean something, to ME. And I have gone on record as saying, that if anyone NEEDS a HUS, Black Women need it. No matter what happens from this point on, I feel honored for being the bridge that brought Ms. Royale With Cheese over – whether she thinks I’m “qualified” (that phrase – oh, the irony…) – or not.
As Common once said: “It’s the Question”, that makes the difference; not the answer.
I’ll hold here.
Holla back
O.
@ Obsidian
Ted’s words-his summation-couldnt be more relevant to the current conversation, particularly the sidebar debate between, in the main, ms sassy and myself. Theres a reason why she has yet to engage, at all, anything of what thras or mcb has said, and has gone full bore at me. Thats because what i have said-or what she is perceived me to have said-has struck a seriously raw nerve with her-even though my original question had nothing at all to do with ir dating in either direction. Indeed my question had to do with black on black relationships, or the lack thereof. While ms sassy puts up one heck of a mean muggin front of precision and objectivity, at bottom, this is personal no matter how much she may try to fake the funk.
You give yourself way too much credit.
You keep claiming malice where there isn’t any. You didn’t strike a nerve with me at all by bringing up the topic of conversation. I just become very irritatated whenever someone makes a faulty blanket statement, which is what you did. You keep trying to make it seem like you got my goat, and it’s pathetic. You lost the debate we were having because you were incapable of remaining on the original topic of the argument. In plain words, your stupidity bothered me.
I also never had anything to say to Mule or Thras because I didn’t have a problem with what they said. They stated their points eloquently and coherently. You did not. You should learn a thing or two by their examples.
You can’t make a faulty statement, then pretend that you never made the claim. YOU WERE WRONG. Own it, grab your sack, and deal with it.
Keep attempting to claim your hollow victory over me. It won’t change the fact that I argued my case 1000 times better than you. Up your game, then we’ll talk.
They were just general black men. They didn’t fit into one facet of society or socio-economic status. The only unifying factor was that they were bothered by me dating white men.
largely fueled by the question of race-haitians are largely defined by their african past; dominicans do all they can to get away from it.
Is more complex than that. Is fueled by The language (they speak creole we speak Spanish) the religion (They practice Vuddu, we are officially Catholics and Christians and since we were The Athens of the new world we had a lot of our priests instilling all sorts of myths about them to make sure the masses won’t end up being seduced by the devil and really after you see a guy “mounted” eating a live’s chicken head is not hard to consider this religion evil), Trujillo’s campaign, that was similar to the anti-jewish campaign here now that I think about it “Haitians eat Dominican babies!” something that even my mother still believes at this point and the invasion they did in 1822 seconds after they were independent, Haiti so for us it means. Haiti is going to get you as soon as they can. Now that they are poorer is easier to see it as us being discriminating out of color but is not like that at all that is American projection that if you don’t like a particular group you are racist regardless of historical underground as mentioned before we have plenty of black heroes like Lemba, Sanchez, Mama tingo and so on.
Ive had the chance to come into contact with quite a number of dominicans-some even darker than me-and none of them consider themselves to be, in any way shape or form, to be of african background; indeed they refer to themselves as “indio”, meaning “indian”.
The word for a really dark skinned person in my country is not indio we have at least six words between black and white and few people use the words white and black anyway. For white people we use: colorao, jojoto and habao among others and for black people moreno, in between it goes to indio, moreno clara, moreno obscuro…I also explained that African only let us the DNA we were the center of the slavery in the continent at Columbus time and the slaves that survived the trips mixed up and converted quickly they only left us a few words but we didn’t had the same “cultural” legacy from them that AA in other countries did. The franciscans and dominican priests did a great job of taking this out for the root. Don’t confuse one with the other we can’t accept being AA because we were raised to be black Spaniards. All you need to do is see the different behaviors from AA and there, in clothes, language, food. If we have had AA colonies growing apart from the group we probably will have had a lot more we didn’t, the ones that are trying to “reconnect” are not different than the girls that want to act like Sex and the City wannabes. They are based on the same judgement first world people do “skin color” and ignoring cultural background. No to mention that this things are about who was the most oppressed since Tainos went extinct there is a lot more “sympathy” for them thus the identification makes more sense, even though they also left us little things (we still have some food from them like the casabe ,but unlike most islanders we don’t eat a lot of fish we inherit love for pork meat from anti-jewish Spain) if you are going to pick “an oppressed group” you pick the one that suffered the most the Tainos/Indios did. All you have to do is read History of Indias by Bartolome de las casas to see that our slavery was a miles away from yours hence the difference.
Latino men and women outmarry at approximately the same rate, as do Native American men and women. Both groups have much higher IR marriage rates than do black women
That is what I had seen here in this corner of california most latin men (mexican, puerto rican cuban) . Latin women though have a bit of half and half in picking white men in my experience.
I still look down my nose at Anacaona every time she mentions how men from The DR act. Doesn’t she understand that she should have been raised in Shaker Heights where any diverse neighbor she might have had would have proven to her that we are all the same.
I didn’t knew you looked down on me…
I do understand that that is why I keep warning you not to overdue the Game if your culture does a 180 and places men at the top you can easily end up as bad as my country men. Lack of consequences screw everyone.
Basically I was overloaded with fear and dread already from my non-American upbringing, so any man adding to that would be over-gaming.
100% accurate about me too.
I know how irritated others get when attractive people acknowledge their own attractiveness. They are often seen as being immodest and they are expected pretend that they don’t know how appealing they are to others (how could they not know, really). I know when you’re considered less attractive you don’t want to feel threaten, when it is the less attractive among us who validate attractive people’s looks the most. Go figure.
Actually this happens with everything: Money, Intelligence…feminism. Would you like a clearly rich people telling everyone how rich they are in a regular basis? Not so much because you are not rich is because we are not stupid, we know that you are rich/hot/smart telling us 24/7 is a bit condescending and tiresome, we have eyes we don’t need to hear it all the time. That is the same principle men expressed her dislike for “intelligent’” women is not because they are smart is because they feel the need to probe it and show it all the time. I frankly had a similar issue with some intellectuals that wouldn’t shut up about their credentials, knowledge travel. Is just annoying no matter how pretty you are being annoying is not an asset.
@Ms. Sassy:
“You give yourself way too much credit.”
O: I try…
“You keep claiming malice where there isn’t any.”
O: Somehow, I doubt that…
“You didn’t strike a nerve with me at all by bringing up the topic of conversation.”
O: *Turns to the fellas in the room* – do y’all believe that?
“I just become very irritatated whenever someone makes a faulty blanket statement, which is what you did. You keep trying to make it seem like you got my goat, and it’s pathetic. You lost the debate we were having because you were incapable of remaining on the original topic of the argument. In plain words, your stupidity bothered me.”
O: There, there Ms. Sassy; let’s not get all Ad Hominem with it…
“I also never had anything to say to Mule or Thras because I didn’t have a problem with what they said. They stated their points eloquently and coherently. You did not. You should learn a thing or two by their examples.”
O: *Looks into the camera “The Office” style* – are all of you getting what’s going on here?
“You can’t make a faulty statement, then pretend that you never made the claim. YOU WERE WRONG. Own it, grab your sack, and deal with it.”
O: I thought I did.
“Keep attempting to claim your hollow victory over me. It won’t change the fact that I argued my case 1000 times better than you. Up your game, then we’ll talk.”
O: No thanks; I’m allergic to Ms. Thangs…
O.
@Ms. Sassy:
“They were just general black men. They didn’t fit into one facet of society or socio-economic status. The only unifying factor was that they were bothered by me dating white men.”
O: Hmm – so, let me get this straight: you got equal amounts of grief from the Paul Carrick Brunsons AND, the Lil Waynes of the world – all bent outta shape that you with White guys.
Um-hmm. Gotcha. Thanks! Let’s see what Ms. Liza and Dogsquat have to say…
O.
I didn’t knew you looked down on me…
I was being facetious.
My point was that you have told many a bad story about Dominican men (relative to other groups you have known), which means that you not only notice certain group differences (in general), but that some groups, in some ways, are worse than others.
This is why learning how to talk about yourself is an important social skill. For instance, when talking about travel, someone might say, “I have been fortunate enough to travel to …”.
@Ms. Sassy:
You know what, since you’ve been so “generous” (fun question for the audience at home; what do you do with free and unsolicited “advice”?), I thought to, what the heck, return the favor…
If my question had nothing at all to do with you – and if I am indeed as mentally deficient as you claim – why did you even bother to respond at all? I mean, why couldn’t you simply go on with your day? Why even bother? What’s the point?
Your response Ms. Thang, er, Ms. Sassy…?
O.
quote fail! Try again:
Ive had the chance to come into contact with quite a number of dominicans-some even darker than me-and none of them consider themselves to be, in any way shape or form, to be of african background; indeed they refer to themselves as “indio”, meaning “indian”.
The word for a really dark skinned person in my country is not indio we have at least six words between black and white and few people use the words white and black anyway, which is only one of the many mistakes the documentary had… For white people we use: colorao, jojoto and habao among others and for black people moreno, in between it goes to indio, moreno clara, moreno obscuro…I also explained that African only let us the DNA we were the center of the slavery in the continent at Columbus time and the slaves that survived the trips mixed up and converted quickly they only left us a few words but we didn’t had the same “cultural” legacy from them that AA in other countries did. The franciscans and dominican priests did a great job of taking this out for the root. Don’t confuse one with the other we can’t accept being AA because we were raised to be black Spaniards. All you need to do is see the different behaviors from AA and there, in clothes, language, food. If we have had AA colonies growing apart from the group we probably will have had a lot more we didn’t, the ones that are trying to “reconnect” are not different than the girls that want to act like Sex and the City wannabes. They are based on the same judgement first world people do “skin color” and ignoring cultural background. No to mention that this things are about who was the most oppressed since Tainos went extinct there is a lot more “sympathy” for them thus the identification makes more sense, even though they also left us little things (we still have some food from them like the casabe ,but unlike most islanders we don’t eat a lot of fish we inherit love for pork meat from anti-jewish Spain) if you are going to pick “an oppressed group” you pick the one that suffered the most the Tainos/Indios did. All you have to do is read History of Indias by Bartolome de las casas to see that our slavery was a miles away from yours hence the difference.
“What you say about 2nd and 3rd generation Asian Americans is interesting. I guess I would be considered 1st generation or 1.5. The traditional Asian culture is about female submissiveness and male superiority; families want boys. That could be changing, but I don’t think it is changing all that much. Do you think that they are “just like” the white nerdy guys in terms of ideas about gentlemanliness and protectiveness of women?”
The 2nd and 3rd generation Asians that I know are completely Westernized or Americanized in their thinking. That means they were raised to be completely beta. Add that to their “tiger” parents and the emasculated image of them in American consciousness and their self-esteem / confidence are completely fucked. When I first met my Asian wingman one of his sticking points was making eye contact. Dude just couldn’t do it. He would start sweating and stuttering after looking at someone in the eye for more than 5 seconds, especially girls.
@Obsidian:
“by your own admission, the price of admission if you will, was to your mind, just. Too. High.”
__________________________
Since you brought up the violence thing again:
I was an infantryman for 8 years. I was a Close Combat instructor, and still teach an Intro to Krav Maga class twice a month. I have fought in 1 big war and 2 small ones. I work presently as a paramedic in the crappy part of my city.
I experience fear, but I am not afraid of violence. It was my job for almost a decade, and I’m still around it at work quite a bit. I’m reasonably competent at managing myself in those environments. If I die or am crippled, I’ll deal with it when it happens. There’s no use letting that crap get on top of you.
All that being said, you’re not all the way wrong. Violence played a role, but not the way you’re thinking.
The reasons I broke it off with her, in no particular order:
1. She had another guy’s name tattooed on a place I looked at often. It bothered me a lot. (Hey – just being brutally honest)
2. Her incipient alcoholism
3. She had no direction in life, or passion for anything. She was looking to be rescued, and I was in no position to do that.
4. Issues surrounding race – It became apparent to me that (for the foreseeable future) we were going to run into shitty situations in bars. I believe some of those were instigated by her, but not all of them. Some of them I was able to run my mouth and defuse, and others I wasn’t. If the tactical situation dictated, I’d stand there and get clowned on. I’m not going to walk away, but I’m not Chuck Norris, either. Twice it was acceptable and necessary to fight.
I became concerned with her reaction to these situations. Firstly, she would lose a great deal of attraction for me when I did not retaliate. Secondly, she did not help. Instead of unassing the area, she’d yell or argue back, forcing a worse dynamic. Third, after you hurt someone significantly, it’s often a good idea to make yourself scarce. She seemed to enjoy taunting the poor bastards, unfortunately. It was a struggle to leave quickly due to this, and the situation was such that I couldn’t just snatch her ass up and bounce without risking another incident.
I was a bully for Uncle Sam a few times, and I have no taste for that work. I resented bitterly her contributing to similar situations. Some poor drunk bastard ends up getting screws in his bones and 12 weeks in a cast for what? Because she was too prideful to walk away? That is not acceptable.
I contributed to this in my own way, I will not deny it. I kept tip-toeing around the race issue, and ended up surrendering control of where we went to hang out far too often. I couldn’t think of a way that allowed me to save face and get what I wanted. I also didn’t want it to be an issue. This is fucking America, and that shit shouldn’t happen here. Little hampsterbating on my part.
You asked what kind of guys these were –
I got clowned on by members of a local gang. Other incidents involved just…normal dudes. Mid-late 20′s, lower to middle class economically, dressed to comply with a minimal dress code. Soft hands, so they weren’t menial laborers. The worst was a guy in his mid 40′s, purple silk shirt, grey slacks, and business shoes. He was very intoxicated and far to grabby. When he and his friend got loud and rude, I went and asked a bouncer for help, but the bouncer declined to intervene, so I did. Had to give a police statement for that one, and was nearly arrested.
Funny what sticks in your head sometimes, isn’t it?
So – there it is, warts and all. Please spare the criticism. It was not my finest hour, I made several dumb mistakes, and I finished beating myself up for this a couple years ago.
@ Obsidian
the “tone” of the “voices” of Ms. Liza and Ms. Sassy, to this Brotha’s ear – keyword there – is key.
Because, when you really get down to it, what they are both “saying”, in a very real sense, is that Black relationships, really don’t have a place here at Hooking Up Smart; recall how both ladies stated very clearly how they fully intend to get as far away from “African American culture” as possible – and remember their mention of “ghetto, low-class and ignorant” Black folks. Toss in the fact that the person who posed such a question to begin with, just happened to have been a self-identified Brotha – and whew, we are off to the races. Pardon the pun.
God, I never said that.
I never said that black relationships have no place here at HUS, nor did I imply it. I also never commented on “ghetto, low class” black people. I never said that I wanted to get as far away as possible from “African American culture”. I did mention “ignorant” black people though, and I’ll tell you why.
All of my life, I have caught flak from various black people, both male and female, about how I have chosen to live my life. They questioned why I dated white men. They questioned why I talked “white”. They questioned why I did not have a “weave” and wondered how I had naturally long healthy hair. They questioned why/how I was able to get into a good school. They questioned/mocked my middle class lifestyle.
They had a preconceived notion of what being “black” was, which I didn’t fit into. I’ve been told that I “act white”. I’ve been called an “oreo” by my own people. It’s frustrating and insulting. People who prescribe to such rigid notions of race/racial identity are “ignorant”, in my opinion.
I have always lived my life as myself, not as my race. My goal isn’t to fit into a box that they have about their ideas of “blackness”.
I have no problem with black male/black female relationships. I have no problem with who anyone decides to love. The fact that you make such a claim further shows hom much you are grasping at straws.
Also, the fact that you are a black man doesn’t bother me in the least. It hasn’t affected my viewpoint of the topic of discussion at hand. For the thousanth time, I can’t stand your inability to construct a decent argument based on fact, logic, and sound reasoning. Instead, you keep building strawman arguments/claims.
You should just stop proclaiming to know anything about me, my thoughts, my choices, my motivations, or my life. You can’t even repeat what my words have been on a subject without changing them around to try to justify your shitty arguments. Everything you claim about me is and has been false. Just stop.
Pick a different subject to discuss/dissect.
I was being facetious.
I guessed as much that is why I just remarked it. Had I mentioned that I don’t get sarcasm? So yeah this is bound to happen again so I appologize in advance.
My point was that you have told many a bad story about Dominican men (relative to other groups you have known), which means that you not only notice certain group differences (in general), but that some groups, in some ways, are worse than others.
Oh Ramble one of the reasons I started to try and find a man out of my country at the ancient age of 25 is because I was trying to be patriotic and nationalist and give a chance to my men to proof me wrong to find the needled in the haysack…I couldn’t and trust me I’m a force to be retconned with. I wish I could come here and say that I was just unlucky in my country land and that Dominican men are generally good. But we have the highest rate of feminicide in the Caribbean, and 84% of men had admitted cheating the DV is all time high, maybe rape and date rape are not as bad but then with the definition of rape here (any time a woman feels is rape) it might be just that. The only good thing about Dominican men is that you managed to make friends with them they will be like non related brothers and they will protect you and care for you like a sister, as long as he is not fucking you he will be wonderful, but if you make the mistake of starting a relationship with them you become just another warm hole, sad but true.
This is why learning how to talk about yourself is an important social skill. For instance, when talking about travel, someone might say, “I have been fortunate enough to travel to …”.
Yeah but again I also think that talking to much about obvious thing is a problem no matter how polite you are. Trying to mix it up with other things you are, do, like…works better to avoid the pretentious effect, YMMV.
Yeah but again I also think that talking to much about obvious thing is a problem no matter how polite you are.
True enough.
Underdog, the eye contact thing could be cultural. I have a hard time doing it, too. I still talk to the person in general instead of meeting eye to eye most of the time. All the Asian anime / shows feature the shy awkward stereotype of both boys and girls. And yes the Asian parenting style produces very shy and self-conscious kids. I know I am definitely that way.
I think part of the problem is that the American mainstream does not care for the East Asian self-effacing, humble and low-key style and demeanor. Personally, I had lots of crushes on the shy, nerdy guys (Asian and non-Asian) in my school days. But the numbers are stacked against the Asian guy in American schools because he’s much more likely to be up against lots of other loud, rowdy students, and meet girls who look for the smooth jocks. In Asian schools it was very different.
If what you say is true though, and the 2nd/3rd generation Asians are not good with women and culturally Americanized, that still means if they went back to Asia they would get tons and tons of attention. Not only would the girls find the guy very high status, they would be super grateful that he wouldn’t cheat and wouldn’t get mistresses on the side. The problem would be the language barrier.
“Is just annoying no matter how pretty you are being annoying is not an asset.”
——-
Ana,
I don’t know if this is aimed at me or just in general. This is the internet and I don’t have a picture up. The men here kept going on about what I might look like and I really wanted to avoid talking about them because I don’t think looks have everything to do with dating/mating. I have seen women who most men would not give a second look to (or even a first one), and in some cases these women had very nasty personalities but had boyfriends and husbands that loved them to death and not all the men with them were losers.
Men seem to forget that, even though they are the ones who make the overtures and initiate approaches and relationhips–women do the choosing, period. It does not go, unless we say so.
Another thing, don’t you think talking about your married life a lot to women who are single can get annoying for them as well. I am not saying this in malice, I just wonder if you ever considered this, that’s all.
@ Obsidian
Do you even read this blog? I mean, do you even read posts if they don’t pertain to you specifically?
When people make claims on here that are false, people typically speak up and set them straight. You are no exception. We all engage in debate on here about a multitude of topics. You just happened to make one extremely innacurate claim, which is why I jumped on you for it. I don’t have a vendetta against everything you have said. There are some ideas that you have mentioned that I have been in agreement with, as you know.
You should look at one of the many arguments/debates I have had with Jesus Mahoney in the past. I’m a stickler for factual and accurate information. The debates he and I had were very heated, even moreso than the one between you and I.
Dogsquat, revolutions, as the historians say, are overdetermined. Any one of those would have been enough for me. But all four! Whoah.
“If what you say is true though, and the 2nd/3rd generation Asians are not good with women and culturally Americanized, that still means if they went back to Asia they would get tons and tons of attention. Not only would the girls find the guy very high status, they would be super grateful that he wouldn’t cheat and wouldn’t get mistresses on the side. The problem would be the language barrier.”
Yeah, I think language barrier and cultural differences are the reasons why. I honestly don’t see a reason for them to do it unless all they want is a vagina that may or may not be digging for gold.
Dogsquat, it’s okay. We all suffer lapses of judgement now and then. At least you didn’t impregnate her or marry her.
The kids remained in consistent contact with their (cheating) father and he and the ex-Wife (their mother) maintained a pretty cordial relationship after the divorce.
That’s probably for the best, Ramble. Unless he was dangerous to the kids (cult stuff?), they certainly have the right to know him whatever his flaws are, perhaps even because of his flaws. It’s better for kids to know a father who has issues than fantasize a hero and be disappointed.
@ms sassy frassy:
I love it-love it! More, please-since it is quite evident by now, that you. Just. Cant. Stop.
See, heres the thing, ms thang, ooops, ms sassy:
You could have nipped all this in the bud, by merely…
Wait for it…
Staying silent.
And move on.
That is the fundamental problem here. By your own admission-correct me if im wrong please-my initial question had nothing whatsoever to do with you-right?
So, convo over. The end. Kaput. Move on.
See, thats what i do, believe it or not-the vast majority of discussions that go on here at hus, i dont say a mumbling word. One, because they dont have anything to do with me directly; and two, because i like seeing how others think; lurking allows me to do that.
So the burning question for you, my dear, is simply this:
What the heck were you doing commenting on a topic that by your own admission has zilch to do with you?
Oh, and for what its worth, im sorry about your unhappy life as a member of the tribe. You really should get therapy for that. Ooops.
O.
@Travis
Sure, but those same guys will at the same time be curious to lay down with some woman from another tribe. It’s just male competition for sexual partners.
I hear what you’re saying about negative reactions, and I myself wince sometimes at the directness here, especially when the remarks target individuals personally. If it’s any compensation, even as white women respond with attraction to black guys, white guys are getting together with Asian women with some regularity. There are many different possible permutations. I’m not too familiar with who finds whom attractive – all we’ve got are intermarriage rates and anecdotal observation, which will vary considerably depending on where you live. For example, when I was in San Francisco, I saw a ton of mixed white – Asian couples, of both types.
In any case, I do believe things are changing regardless of how any individual feels about it. And I do see how there could be more intrasexual competition among men that turns violent.
“Hamsterbating”
That one is going in the book.
Eh, just odd blessings before dinner.
He was a really nice guy, but so nice that he got led around by each wife.
I don’t know if this is aimed at me or just in general. This is the internet and I don’t have a picture up.
Is mostly general the fact that you don’t brag about your looks is actually good and polite on your part. I’m sorry some men kept making assumptions and you were forced to say it, but I wasn’t talking about you, but the general complain of the “don’t hate me because I’m pretty’ cohort. I always had friends that were hotties and they were amazing, but the few ones that couldn’t shut up about it were really irritating and they didn’t even noticed it so I decided to say a different perspective to make sure the kids on the audience think about it for a moment.
I don’t think looks have everything to do with dating/mating. I have seen women who most men would not give a second look to (or even a first one), and in some cases these women had very nasty personalities but had boyfriends and husbands that loved them to death and not all the men with them were losers.
I agree with that. Looks or luck has nothing do to with getting a good partner but strategic thinking, doing your homework and be constant and daring. A bit like finding a job, YMMV.
Another thing, don’t you think talking about your married life a lot to women who are single can get annoying for them as well. I am not saying this in malice, I just wonder if you ever considered this, that’s all.
Well the mission of this blog is for people to successfully pair off and eventually commit and since our host is married I think is implied that a marriage that last is the ultimate goal. Telling people about my married life serves a purpose, IMO. I actually don’t talk about it anywhere but here, the people that asks about it get as little or as much info as they are looking for. So is not something I rub on people’s faces for any sense of superiority but I do think people in this culture have more people saying negatives about marriage (I feel trapped, I don’t recognize myself, I can’t do the same things I did when single…) than positives so I’m offering a counter point. I can imagine talking about my virginity also annoys the women that think they will die if they don’t bang that hot guy they just meet, but again it serves a purpose. I didn’t died I didn’t ended up sexually suppressed.
So again there is a method to my annoyance. Of course if Susan or there is a consensus that I’m doing more bad than good I will stop at once. Meanwhile “I’m happily married and I feel sexier, happier and better than I ever did in dating hell!” Is there any nearby rooftop I can yell this?
@ Obsidian
You could have prevented this entire conversation from happening by being able to make correct and valid statements. As I said before, had you done so from the very beginning, you wouldn’t have heard a peep out of me.
I think it’s everyone’s duty not to allow the propogation of faulty information in the world. Consider my quota of good deeds towards society met this week.
I can’t help you to learn how to debate intelligently and coherently. I can only hope that you learn to do so in the near future.
I’m more than happy to bring this conversation/tangent to a close. If you don’t mention my name anymore in conversations, or make false generalizations about me to other people, you and I will be copacetic.
Also, I’m not unhappy about being a black person. Since I decided to refuse to associate with ignorant black people, my life has been quite dandy. The fact that you claim I am unhappy, despite my writing to you suggesting otherwise, provides yet another example of your low reading comprehension and deductive reasoning.
It’s been nice doing business with you.
Ana,
Well the mission of this blog is for people to successfully pair off and eventually commit and since our host is married I think is implied that a marriage that last is the ultimate goal. Telling people about my married life serves a purpose, IMO.
Okay. I can see how this might help many young women and some older never married women.
“I’m happily married and I feel sexier, happier and better than I ever did in dating hell!” Is there any nearby rooftop I can yell this?
Do your thing, girl!
Underdog & Hope: I’m interested in your thoughts on eye contact and social dominance (in the cultural milieu you describe) as they might pertain to an interesting metric called the VDR, or “visual dominance ratio.” You can Google the term if you have the time and interest; I actually just did a short, pop-science description of it on my own esoteric little hedge fund/decision science blog.
Okay. I can see how this might help many young women and some older never married women.
Thank you. Trust me I try very hard not to be annoying if I ever annoy I’m usually doing it for a purpose. But feel free to let me know if you think I over do it. I’m always open to reconsider if someone asks nicely.
Underdog, incidentally, I know a few American guys (mostly white but one black) who studied Chinese or Japanese for the unstated purpose of getting with girls.
I don’t really believe there would be a huge cultural mismatch. Asian cultures traditionally tend to value intelligence, education, stability, work ethic, quietness/introversion, sexual and material conservatism, the woman being thin/feminine/supportive, and the man being head of the household. Are the later generations of Asian American men looking for something totally different?
Sassy,
I see you love a good debate. I use to love debating online, too. Ironically, the debates used to be about the same thing with some men dude who had a problem with me and other black women choosing to “swirl”, while claiming vehemently that they did not care. Go figure.
Carry on, then.
@Ramble
Your guess is wrong. Again.
I don’t know whether I am “right thinking” or not. I am living according to my own values. Why must you view someone’s personal choices as an attempt to stoke their own ego? If I wanted to do that, I’d openly discuss my experiences at MCA, which I haven’t done until you challenged me.
I don’t really follow that logic. It seems to me that mothers of girls would be in favor of the pool being as large as possible. Dating interracially does that, and provides more opportunities for people to make good relationships. So the mother of the unattractive girl should be in favor of IR dating. The mother of the highly attractive girl would feel confident that her daughter would not lose out within any group, regardless of her preference. So it’s really win win for mothers of daughters, it seems to me.
First of all, my probably future in-laws are in fact the Lees. They have two sons, both of whom are happy in LTRs with white girls. In truth, the Lees are not particularly pleased by this, just as they are not pleased by my son’s hold on their daughter’s heart. In fact, they have a couple of words they use to describe these white interlopers. One translates as “Round Eye” and the other as “White Devil.”
It sounds like you have zero personal experience with this topic. Mine is not very great either, but you do not seem to have a good understanding of these dynamics.
First, the black women and Asian men you describe are not politically motivated, so there’s no point in comparing the relative liberality of views. Incentives drive behavior, that’s the marketplace for relationships and everything else. It’s not just a race question either. Obsidian will tell you that the dimes have it rough in the SMP today, as do the virgins. As do women in NYC, etc. It is what it is. I don’t see how people can possibly stop others from mating according to their preferences or abilities.
Second, no one has claimed moral superiority. You projected that. I merely observed that IR marriage is on the rise, and I believe we’ll see more of it. And for the record, the research on Millennials does confirm that they are much more tolerant and “progressive” than any previous generation, at all levels of the SES spectrum.
http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/03/the-generation-gap-and-the-2012-election-3/
Sure, but those same guys will at the same time be curious to lay down with some woman from another tribe. It’s just male competition for sexual partners.
I will say that in college when I started to ponder that I might get a foreigner Dominican men were really mad about like bashing foreigners with all sorts of “drawbacks and insults” and this guys weren’t even interested on me but they did have the whole “You belong to our group, you can only pick from our type” mentality going on. So the sexual competition is a part of it and most be common on other cultures as well, YMMV.
@OTC
I am! I make no secret of that! Actually, we were talking about how guys sometimes go very Dark and then move back toward the Light once they’ve got the total asshole thing down. I don’t like it, but it’s obvious at least some guys do it. Also, I recently wrote that post about 10 great beta traits and the beta guys jumped down my throat with a sort of self-castigation. That troubles me, to be honest. I think there’s a throwing the baby out with the bathwater problem. If, as you say, it’s basically impossible to lose that emo side, then I’m happy to hear it. Because the last thing the world needs is more guys who are all alpha, IMO.
Escoffier said:
“Dogsquat, revolutions, as the historians say, are overdetermined. Any one of those would have been enough for me. But all four! Whoah.”
_______________
Dude, you would not believe what a mess I was back then. I’ve been thinking back to those days quite a bit as I work on the blog. It’s a miracle I didn’t morph into a solid block of Dumb.
The gal I wrote about is (despite my unflattering portrayal) a really cool chick. You just got the bad stuff in that post. Doesn’t handle her booze very well, though.
@Ramble
I think the phrase “color blind” must have started this. I did not literally mean that if I ask my kids the race of one of their friends, they won’t know how to answer. I simply meant that among kids now in their 20s, there’s some degree of integration socially. I see it first hand. No, UMC white kids don’t mix it up with black kids from the inner city, or with white kids from the inner city either. As I said, there is still assortative socializing wrt education. I live in a town with subsidized housing projects, and the kids do mingle socially once they meet in school. These kids are not being bussed in, everyone is in the same neighborhood, and they definitely cross color lines.
There’s no moral superiority or “right thinking” about it. You couldn’t force kids to be friends if you wanted to. These relationships are organically created, mostly in educational or work environments.
@Dogsquat
Ha! Wait to hold Obs’ feet to the fire! He is a trickster.
“You couldn’t force kids to be friends if you wanted to.”
__________________________
With enough superglue and some duct tape you can do anything.
Hmm. Lets see what happens when i do this…
@ms sassy:
The very first statement by me in this forum, was the following question:
“do black women select for intelligence in their men?”
Both you, and ms liza, have gone on record as saying that the question has nothing to do with you. My question had nothing to do with ir dating. My question had nothing to do with “swirling”. By the words “their men” in my question, it is meant-and both you and ms liza agreed-that i was talking about “black men”-ie, black on black relationships.
That, is how this entire ball of wax got rolling.
In that by your own admission the topic question posed by me-which, i might add, never got an answer (the same thing happened over at vsb dontcha know)-had nothing to do with you, it is indeed truly marveling to see you still here, some umpteen hundred posts later.
Again, if you were me, i would not have said a mumbling word.
Because it is highly unlikely that no one else would have brought up off topic stuff like “swirling” to begin with. I for sure didnt bring it up-like i said, my question was about black folks, which by now weve gotten an earful of what you think about, btw.
In sum:
I posed the question about black folks.
Youre not interested in the question.
But you went on ahead and spoke on it anyway.
And youre still here more than a thousan(!) comments later.
Yes, i think psychology is a good course of study for you.
Happy trails…
O.
@Ramble
I didn’t say I was color blind, I said it was a characteristic of Millennials. Nor did I say I hope for mocha colored grandchildren. Nor did I say my views were superior.
My point is, I really don’t care what color my grandchildren are. I don’t care what race my SIL or DIL are. I have a long list of qualities I want in any mate my kids choose, and race doesn’t happen to be important to me.
I don’t know why this is a problem for you. It’s not a political sentiment. For the record, I don’t care about religion either. Nor height, nor good looks. Nor money.
I do care about intelligence and I care about work ethic. But if my kids don’t share my view, they’ll make another choice. I honestly do not understand what this debate is about.
You seem to be implying that I’m lying or pretending in some way. I’m not. This is how I feel, and I’ve never held any view just to be PC. I don’t think that should surprise you.
For the record, I never said that people should work or live where they don’t feel safe. I’ve opposed the Slut Walks because I say that women have a responsibility to keep themselves out of harm’s way. It’s the same thing here.
@Hope
“Underdog, incidentally, I know a few American guys (mostly white but one black) who studied Chinese or Japanese for the unstated purpose of getting with girls.
I don’t really believe there would be a huge cultural mismatch. Asian cultures traditionally tend to value intelligence, education, stability, work ethic, quietness/introversion, sexual and material conservatism, the woman being thin/feminine/supportive, and the man being head of the household. Are the later generations of Asian American men looking for something totally different?”
I don’t know if I’m correct in making this observation, but if I am, then there’s a disapproval that many Asian-Americans have toward people who are 100% Asian in culture. They call them FOB for ‘fresh off the boat’, which I don’t think is a good thing. So an average Asian-American guy wouldn’t be very proud of himself if he had to go back to Asia in order to get a FOB wife. Much like I’d imagine an Asian-American woman having to go back to Asia in order to get a FOB husband would feel… hell, from what I observed, many Asian-American women (those who are Westernized) looked down on even Asian-American men. Again, this is only my general observations and I could very well be wrong.
Susan:
“Why is it that guys like the ones you link to are not generally the go-to manosphere blogs? Obisidian is scrupulous about Jedi vs. Sith Game, but the ‘sphere is definitely dominated by Dark types, especially lately. Is it because they focus on PUA for men rather than broader discussions? Young men ask me all the time for blog recommendations, and to be honest, it seems lame to be pointing 20 yo guys to Married Man Sex Life. Maybe I should make a list from your comment. I do not want to point anyone to “dark” tactics.”
I have some thoughts on this that I`ll add later. As for PUAs you safely can send guys to I have some thoughts:
First I would recomend that they read the No more mister nice guy book. I haven`t read it but have spent a fair amount of time reading the authors forum and the authors articles and what other people say about the book. I think that reading the book will help many guys address their issues quite deeply and thourougly and very healthily. It is written by a psychologist. By having guys read it first you highly increase the chances that they will go about things in a healthy way and not overcompensate etc.
Second, I think the authentic man programe (AMP) is the best thing ever. It might seem a bit odd to people at first but it is truly great and the feedback PUAs that have taken it give it is amazing. It will make the men who take it unusually emotionally healthy, self aware and better able to handle LTR as well as good at pickup. Google it combined with words such as PUA/Forum/review etc. and you will find a bunch of PUAs here and there talking about how good it is.
Juggler is a very safe and wholesome alternative. For guys that are lacking in basic social skills it is especially good because Juggler teaches conversational game and social skills that are very broadly applicable. He is also a really nice person as is his coach Harry (who has a degree in psychology) and most of his former coaches. His method is very good but I dislike his overemphasis on verbalizing everything as opposed to non verbal escalation. I really like the Jamessocialcoach guy I linked to (a former Juggler coach) and men would be in safe hands with him but he lives in Australia.
I think David Deangelos stuff (cocky funny stuff pluss a bit else) is probably good and sane but its been years since I read his book. His inner game stuff I`ve been told was very good by a guy that had over ten years of intensive meditation training so it should be good and it has generally been praised quite a bit but I`ve never read it myself.
I think Pookies stuff is awesome but haven`t read all of it so I can`t vouch 100% for weather he is dark or not but what I have read was not at all dark. Pookie focuses very much on inner game and core beliefs etc.
From reading his blog and forum Mark Masons stuff has to be perfectly safe and Krauser says his book is excellent. He also had a good reputation as a teacher before his anti PUA shift.
Maybe you could have a look at Krausers stuff and see what you think. He teaches daygame and gets a lot of praise.
60Yearschallenge is perfectly safe and VERY good. His stuff might seem a bit strange but really works and he gets a lot of respect from guys I know are very skilled PUAs. Both Krauser and Roissy thinks very highly of his game.
Zan has banned any negativity about women in his forum and has one of the most interesting styles out there but I am sceptical an average guy can pull much of it off in the short term. He is almost esclusively inner game based. But he is always worth it for a guy to look at a bit for his special perspective.
I liked some of what I read by James Marshal and he used to be a Kung Fu monk in china so shouldn`t be too dark. He also aims very much to make you a natural rather than a PUA and he himself figured out how to get women by himself not via pickup. But I haven`t read enough of him to really asses him.
I don`t know if he is any good or not but Dr. Paul does have a PHD in psychology so he should have a sane perspective.
I don’t know if I’m correct in making this observation, but if I am, then there’s a disapproval that many Asian-Americans have toward people who are 100% Asian in culture. They call them FOB for ‘fresh off the boat’, which I don’t think is a good thing. So an average Asian-American guy wouldn’t be very proud of himself if he had to go back to Asia in order to get a FOB wife. Much like I’d imagine an Asian-American woman having to go back to Asia in order to get a FOB husband would feel… hell, from what I observed, many Asian-American women (those who are Westernized) looked down on even Asian-American men. Again, this is only my general observations and I could very well be wrong.
A lot of the kids that my husband knows on his work are Asian American so, I have to cosign this I even knew about the term FOB and how is used.
Brilliant. That needs to go directly into the dictionary.
You mentioned that the boy in question was of Jewish, Indian (presumably Hindu) and Afro-Caribbean background. I noticed that the latter wasn’t mentioned during your recounting of the incident.
No, not at all Hindu. The boy is the son of a Jewish/Caribeanean Indian/black mom and a dad who looks like a cross between Desi Arnez and Tonto. One of the other interlocutors was 100% East Indian (Hindu, as opposed to Moslem).
I believe the debate resulted from a “That’s funny, you don’t look Jewish” joke because the kid looks like a light-skinned black American to people who don’t know the whole story (though I see a lot of the dad’s facial features too). He has a Hebrew first name and a Spanish surname, which did figure into the discussion as well.
Right.
We want to increase the pool of good suitors and decrease the pool of bad suitors, which is why parents go crazy over sending their children to “good” schools.
So much of that (outside of the highest echelons like the 92nd Street Y) is getting our children into places where they will be surrounded by other “good” kids.
But, if some mother had her daughter in a tight knit small town (with some diversity) and there was a referendum to open some former industrial wasteland in town to section 8 housing, you better believe that she is going to be against it even though it would increase the number of boys in her daughters age group and increase the diversity.
She will be against this because it will be the bad diversity.
However, if that industrial wasteland was going to be developed into high end housing where all sorts of educated people would likely move in (also a diverse group), she would likely be in favor of it.
I am not saying that this is the one and only factor that a parent would consider, but it would definitely play a role.
No, she could definitely lose.
Take Howard Stern as a concrete example.
He was living in Roosevelt NY in the 70′s when the neighborhood “changed”. His parents were “good” liberals and refused to move (incidentally, their friends all swore that they would not move as well, but they did).
Howard ultimately ended up going to a school that was heavily black and he was famously tortured by his new classmates. His sister, his parents decided, was sent to a different, private school after the school “changed”.
His (and Her) parents did not care for her new peer group. Even though she now had a more diverse group to choose from, the average quality had gone way down hill.
Susan, it is a little odd that after I explain that Asian parents might be against interracial relationships, you offer an example of Asian parents who aer against interracial relationships and then say that I don’t understand and have no personal experience with it.
I understand the example you gave did not match my “for instance”, but still.
I am not saying that there approach to the mating world will be politically motivated but that their politics (or, more accurately, general beliefs) will likely be influenced, greatly influenced, by there place and potential in the modern, diverse, SMP.
Beautiful girls like Sassy and Liza might very well be in favor, in general, of “open borders” when it comes to relationships because they are likely to do quite well in that scenario. Whereas, an educated (or not) black woman of average looks who is not likely to get much attention from non-black men will want black men to stick to black women. And I would not blame them.
This is true. I detected a tone. I detected a tone that so very often accompanies proclamations of being color blind and how diversity is great.
And, I may very well have been wrong. The fact that you almost immediately started calling me a racist, well, that didn’t help.
And, that quote from people-press.org does not invalidate anything I said.
I understand that demographics and attitudes are changing.
I am guessing that Ted’s initial reaction to those kids that wanted to play with his new hoop was fairly different than many men who came before him. But the “bad” diversity still played out the way it often does and his beliefs will likely be less “progressive” than yours.
@Anacaona
I like hearing about people’s successful marriages. I think it’s good for the readers. It also gives me ideas for new posts.
The best thing about discussion here, IMO, is that both sexes participate. The married women teach a lot of young guys important stuff about the way women think. I know you’re always being told you’re outliers, and I am sure you are the best wives ever, but I don’t think that low-hypergamy women happily married to good men is very rare. I think your stories need to get out there, and I appreciate your taking the time to share them. xoxo
@Susan:
Hey, let’s you and me go do something less nerve wracking than talk about race.
I some minefields we can tap dance on…
I think the dudes at University of Man coined the term hamsterbaiting. I most assuredly didn’t invent it.
Underdog, the fresh-off-the-boat prejudice is a lot about class, income and speech accent, I suspect. I was really “fobby” when I first came to the US, I’ll fully admit! I only spoke a few words in English (hi / sorry), dressed like a total dweeb and was very awkward. I was like a peasant farm girl arriving in the big city, but I don’t think that’s so much the case anymore with certain middle to upper class girls.
It’s different now with all the westernization in Asia. There are lots of girls my age in China who buy super expensive luxury brands and would look down on me for being really plain. They also often speak English, watch American shows, and have a lot more access to western culture. This was not the case when I was growing up at all. Honestly, some of these things are changing so fast that I don’t really know if what I’m saying applies much anymore.
Anyway I don’t look down on the introverted, nerdy, and socially awkward people, as I rather embody these stereotypes. But I can see how more westernized Asian Americans would look down on these and prefer the mainstream attractiveness people, both men and women. That has never been my thing.
Which is great. And I am saying that if you lived in a different neighborhood, like one where certain children write “pussy” on your basketball backboard, you might think differently.
Your views might be less progressive, and I, for one, would not think less of you.
No, not lying. But I do believe that your neighborhood and the schools that you were able to send your children to have enabled you to have certain views, which is good. I can not stress that enough.
But, had you not been able to live in Brookline and had to live in Dorchester and raise your children there and send your kids to school there, you might have very different views on these things.
Again, I would not be in favor of it, but I definitely recognize it.
But some people don’t have a choice. New rail lines are put in, new bus stops are put in, and neighborhoods start to change. And, soon enough, they don’t like the new element and they are deemed racist.
Other times, towns change for the better because of the “diversity”. I am thinking of Edison, NJ and Fort Lee, NJ. These towns became much better places after the Indians and Chinese, respectively, moved in.
In truth, the Lees are not particularly pleased by this, just as they are not pleased by my son’s hold on their daughter’s heart. In fact, they have a couple of words they use to describe these white interlopers. One translates as “Round Eye” and the other as “White Devil.”
Sadly, I know two men whose last chances at love were dashed in this manner. One was the best man at my wedding; the other was his brother. They were two shy, nerdy white boys who were approached by Chinese girls and swept into relationships that were later broken up by the girls’ parents. Neither guy has ever married.
@Dogsquat
Done! Or we could just play in traffic.
@Ramble
I fully acknowledge the privileged bubble I live in. I worked hard for it, it’s my bubble, and I like it. In my particular bubble, I have the luxury of interacting with good people of all sorts. Also lots of blowhards and bitches, but what can you do. I’ve never claimed to be anything other than SWPL straight down the line with my first world problems. On that note, I’m going to go read Martha Stewart Living magazine, which just arrived in my mailbox. She’s got some amazing 4th of July crafts I might try.
@Hope
Yeah, I’d imagine Asian-American dudes being self-conscious if they had wives/girlfriends with Asian accents. After all, they grew up being teased by their peers and the American media with it.
Anyway…
Going back to kios’ excellent comments, i just want to bust out laughing at what he said about having a “covert strategy” towards mating if youre not the hot guy; well, in evopsych/bio circles they call this the “satellite strategy”; in the manosphere its known as, forgive me here-”the sneaky f*cker strategy”.
Heres how it works-im ripping this right from prof david buss’ “the evolution of desire”:
Come mating season, all the male bullfrogs line up at the edge of the pond and begin croaking; this is done so that all the female bullfrogs can get to determine which of the male bullfrogs’ croaks have the deepest most resonate sound.
Next to the biggest male bullfrog, is another, smaller male bullfrog. Not only is he smaller, he doesnt croak at all. He just sits there, silent.
Finally the croakings over and the females begin making their choice; a female has chosen the biggest male bullfrog, and hops toward him…
…but just as she lands, out darts the little guy bullfrog and quickly copulates with her, busts a nut and hops away before the big male alpha bullfrog can do anything!
Welcome to the “sneaky f*cker” strategy.
Thats what i thought of as i read both kios and underdogs posts earlier this morning. I burst out laughing! Ah nature-gotta love it!
More on kios, points in a sec…
O.
This is absolutely correct, and this is a good thing.
But after reading my comments and how often I have said that it is a good thing that you live in a nice town, you must realize that I am not trying to get you to own up to being wealthier than average.
What I am saying is that, if things had gone horribly wrong and you had to raise your daughter and son in Dorchester along with Marky Mark (or ina changing working-class single-mother Pittsburgh neighborhood), your views on these things might be very different.
And I would not think less of you for it. Just like I would not think less of Ted for what his views likely are from his experiences.
I think that I have made that perfectly clear.
I hope that all of my HBD’ing Racism did not sully these parts too much.
They were two shy, nerdy white boys who were approached by Chinese girls and swept into relationships that were later broken up by the girls’ parents.
Hubby has a penchant for the exotic type and more than half their girlfriends broke up with him out of parents pressure. Two Asian ones and another one was Latina with devout catholic parents that didn’t wanted agnostic white boy on their family, I have a friend back in DR that also had a Chinese girlfriend with a similar fate. Good things we Dominicans a a bunch of sell outs, sanky pankies :p
Good things we Dominicans a a bunch of sell outs, sanky pankies :p
Between this and SW’s Martha Stewart comment, I’m about to pee myself.
@Susan
Thanks for the encouragement I do think people need a bit of “what I’m exactly working towards?” bit of perspective when dealing with relationships. Also there is a lot of bad experiences to share here, having a couple of “In the end it was worth it” sounds like a good addition and I’m glad you agree.
@Travis
“or the comments by Sassy, Royale, and Liza, about how they don’t find black men attractive, aren’t going to cause a negative reaction in black men?”
When did I say that I do not find black men attractive? This is not true.
@ Obsidian
Your original question pertaining to whether or not black women don’t date intelligent black men has nothing to do with me. I have no room to comment on it because I don’t date black men, intelligent or not, so it’s not my place to say. That’s why I didn’t respond to that particular question. Sorry that no one gave a rat’s ass about it enough to answer it. You’ll just have to try another website, I guess.
I didn’t have a problem with any of the things you were saying or the questions you were asking until you made a totally inaccurate statement. When you claimed that it’s only ever been black women complaining about interracial dating in the black community, I knew you were talking out of your ass, hence why I set you straight. When you finally revised your original statement, after a good amount of debate, by claiming that black women have complained more overall than black men, I agreed with you.
It was the inaccuracy of the original statement that bothered me, not the topic itself, you being a black man, or any other reason you seem to want to come up with.
I never argued with you about the following question:
For you to claim that I argued with you about that is completely false. You don’t even know what you’ve argued for. It doesn’t appear that you even know which stance you have.
The reason I’m still here debating with you is because, even after I proved how wrong you were, you felt the need to switch the goal posts of the discussion yet again by lumping me into discussions about black women that don’t apply to me and claiming I said things I never did. You don’t have the luxury of using my name in examples and getting away with everything you say.
You don’t get to stir the pot, make stupid claims, then expect no one to call you out on it.
So, if you don’t want this discussion to continue, don’t talk about me, don’t use my name, don’t mention me, and don’t bring up the debate like the results have changed.
I clearly won. You lost miserably.
Happy trails to you too.
@kios:
You know i dont knock any man for wanting to go overseas to get his swerve on. I dont necessarily agree with the idea that american women are irredeemable-but to each his own, i aint gonna hate on it. Your perspectives on your experiences in greece and other points in europe as compared to the anglosphere though are indeed interesting and informative.
Here is where we get to ms sassy frassy and ms liza all that…
As ive previously said i think my “ms ann theory” accounts at least in part for what we see here. See american women have come to expect a number of things, which in a way, takes on even more added importance in the case of sistas like the aforementioned. Youve all had a good chance to see them in action so i wont belabor that point here; but perhaps those expectations just arent the case in the places and spaces (biggups to donald byrd!) youve been. Like i said interesting.
Me though, my temperment is one of a conquerer. I am indefatigable in the pursuit of a goal, unrelenting. I wont eat, sleep or bathe, working round the clock towards it. My one mission in life, my sole reason to exist, is in achieving the objective and completing the mission. I am the terminator, robocop and rorshach all rolled up in one.
So, for me, american women-especially of the variety of you know who-have never been much of a problem for me, personally. But i aint gonna knock the fellas who see greener pastures across the pond.
Oh, and wallet game is handsdown THE WORST kind of game any man can have-and also the weakest-for a number of reasons. But the most obvious is because when the loot runs out, so does she-thats all you had to offer after all.
Always remember: your best seductions should be when youve got less than a grant in your pocket…
O.
@Obsidian
“No matter what happens from this point on, I feel honored for being the bridge that brought Ms. Royale With Cheese over – whether she thinks I’m “qualified” (that phrase – oh, the irony…) – or not.”
I concluded that you were not qualified to make direct assessments of my dating/ mating situations for a couple of specific reasons.
(1) Your own assessment that I am an outlier, and your making it clear that your concerns are for the majority. Therefore, how could you be qualified to assess my experiences? Trends most certainly explain some experiences I have had, but not enough that will provide me with any further growth. Trends and typical behavior may be your comfort zone. I came to HUS because I saw stimulating comments and observations that went beyond the ordinary.
Thank you again for introducing me to the blog.
(2) Once the dialogue devolved from genuine query into verbal sparring, it became clear that you were here to put on a show at my expense, via *heavily* manufactured exchanges, escalations and what not, so I disengaged for the most part. If any of my retreats make it appear that you have “won” then by all means, celebrate. I can buy you a beer if we ever meet in person.
@ Obsidian
See, this is what I’m talking about.
Instead of leaving me out of things, you reference me to try to prove your ill-founded theories and observations.
Just stop.
Don’t use my name, and don’t use me in examples in an attempt to justify shit.
Why is it that every time I turn my head, you mention my name yet again?
Can’t you just stop it already?
About this model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7gPCioqTg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
So we have to compare it to experience and experiment.
I’m not too sure most women can tell the difference between dominance and prestige these days. Isn’t prestige just another way of saying “social proof”?
@J
I do believe the gf’s parents have accepted my son. They invite him for dinner and that kind of thing, so they must think he’s ok for a white kid. I believe Round Eye may be the more recent (and affectionate) nickname.
@Royale,
Sorry. I got you and Mireille mixed up. I apologize.
And even MOOOORE!!! Shes insatiable folks what can i tell ya.
@ms sassy frassy:
You know what you can do anytime you truly want it to end. Theres the door. It swings both ways, too.
And actually madam, i was responding to a comment made earlier today by kios. He was specifally referring to ms liza, but i included you because you two seemed to be in sympatico on so many things here. Lets agree to see if kios thinks im off the mark.
Fair enough?
Anyway…
Heres the deal: you and ms liza specifically referenced my original question, saying that neither of you had anything to do with it.
The people you claim to hold in high regard, mcb and thras, agrees with me. Both have said thus.
Susan walsh, to date, has had no problem whatsoever with what i am talking about.
And you of all people, should know that the most powerful questions, are often those that get no responses.
I am wondering if youve read dogsquats response to me.
Hmmm.
Yippee kiiyay…
@Susan,
“I do believe the gf’s parents have accepted my son. They invite him for dinner and that kind of thing, so they must think he’s ok for a white kid. ”
This isn’t unusual for Asian parents. I went through the same thing with my wife with her parents, but I was put in the “acceptable” column when my STEM field became common knowledge. Now, if I’d come to visit driving a motorcycle and with tattoos, I’m sure I’d have had more issues.
I have seen that Asian parents can be much more strict on this issue with the male children. The best man at my wedding (a friend from college) was disowned by his parents for marrying a Caucasian woman, and they only let up 7 years later, when the first kid arrived. Though this pairing is still significantly less common than the reverse (WM/AF), even here on the West Coast…
I take it back, FWIW.
@ms rwc:
Yes i am fully aware of why you said what you said; i do wonder though, if you got the joke…
At any rate you are most welcome. Now you cant ever say i aint give you nothin.
Coke on the rocks will be just fine, thank you!
O.
@Royale
Just so you know, I don’t see you and Obs as a package deal.
I am interested in your perspective on any matter you choose to discuss.
@Obs
Enough already. I challenge you to make three comments in a row without using the word “sistas.”
@ Obsidian
Oh boy.
I can count at least three examples of Susan Walsh commenting on your writing style and arguments by taking a thinly veiled shot at you. Even Dogsquat, Liza, Royale, and Cooper, have all taken cleverly veiled shots at you. You’ve just been too dumb and blinded by your own stupidity to acknowledge them. That’s not my problem.
Also, for the thousandth time, I NEVER DISAGREED WITH MANY OF THE POINTS YOU MADE.
The only beef I had with you was over the claim that it’s only ever been black women complaining about interracial dating in the black community.
You keep claiming disagreements where there weren’t any.
You continue to blow hot air out of your ass regarding me and our debate, and I’ll continue to set you straight about it.
It’s not my job to end this because you are the one continuing to stir the pot. I guarantee you that I’d have nothing else to say to you if you stopped mentioning me. You seem incapable of that though.
If you stop mentioning me or referring to me in your posts, this would be over.
To dumb it down for you, don’t talk to me or about me.
@ms walsh:
Why? “sistas” isnt a derogatory term in the least; indeed black women themselves refer to each other as such.
And black women is who i am interested in. So what is the problem?
Please explain?
O.
@ Susan Walsh
THANK YOU!!
Since we are on the subject, let me ask you a few questions.
1. Who argued their case better and who won the debate overall?
2. Do you have a problem with the way Obsidian has addressed or talked about me, Liza207, or Royale?
3. Do you agree that this debate would end if he stopped talking about it or referencing me in his posts?
4. Do you see any problem with me setting him straight until he stops referencing me or talking about me?
@Dinkney
Great video, I’d never seen that before.
It can be difficult because a guy may display both. Pure dominance, as defined in this study, is aggressive and selfish behavior, and is most likely to be displayed by a rogue rather than a team player. As the study says, prestige is more likely to manifest as benevolent leadership and an agreeable disposition.
These days, I think there are lots of guys engaging in aggressive selfish behavior in the belief that is what women want – the Impostor Assholes. And it’s true that assholes, whether natural or faked, can do quite well in getting sex. Dark Triad males are always in the hunt for fresh meat, never take a commitment break, and have more sexual partners than other males.
I think that the male with prestige – the natural leader that other men admire and respect – cannot be an asshole. He must have some strength of character and relate well to men at all levels of the social hierarchy. That is rare, especially today. I think he is usually referred to as a “nice alpha.”
It is much easier for a guy to become an Impostor Asshole and get ONSs than it is for a guy to earn prestige. Which is one of the reasons why the former is so much more plentiful than the latter.
No worries.
But please tell me that you can understand that I might have detected a tiny bit of moral superiority.
@ms sassy frassy:
Ah i see you want even more! Good; the nights still young.:)
I see youve edited my comment-tisk tisk ms pedantic, er, ms sassy-now you know that aint right. Lets try this again:
I referenced you because i was responding to an earlier point made by kios where he mentioned ms liza; he was talking about her as the reason why he nixed american women. I added you because by all accounts you two are more similar than different. I then said that we should let kios decide if indeed he agreed with my decision. If he doesnt he will surely say so. Im good with it; why arent you?
You, ms royale and ms liza are more than welcome to your opinions. I will always note them as part of the record.
Ms walsh has been known to be persuaded by me. And i her. We brown like that.
Dogsquat and i have answered each others questions to our mutual satisfaction.
Again: the very people you praised, agreed with me. End of.
You would be wise to learn from them.
Lol
O.
@ENY
Thanks for the perspective. The culture gap can be rather pronounced at times. Fortunately, my son studied Mandarin and spent a couple of summers in China so he is accustomed to the social customs re compliments, modesty, etc. I think a lot of Westerners really step in it when they happily accept compliments with a big “Thanks!” and then fail to praise the food sufficiently. :-/ He has, for example, eaten black, sulfury eggs and other delicacies with the utmost gratitude and respect. I think it must be very hard to be a westerner entering a Chinese family. They believe with some justification that their culture is the richest in the world. I am very happy to take a one down position to these folks.
@ Obsidian
They never agreed with your original faulty claim, you moron.
Show me evidence, and I mean exact quotes, where they agreed with this claim you made:
Either pony up, or shut up.
I only ever disagreed with the above quote. That’s it. For the last time, I didn’t disagree with anything else you said.
The night is still young indeed.
susan
You sound a bit scared that some men will be perfectly happy with no LTRs at all, if they can get short-term.
I am! I make no secret of that!
____________
The majority of guys I know who settled for a life of short term mating and shunned relationships, were always losers at relationships. Not loser guys, but they were just not able to form lasting relationships with women. maybe they were the selfish types, I`m not sure. I think they realised they were not the marring type, not because they craved variety, but because they couldnt get along with women for long term periods. I think it is a fact most men want a relationship, but not all men are capable, even if willing.
@Obs
Your interest can be rather…snarky at times. You’re the ultimate Cheshire Cat. But I share the frustration these women have with your tendency to debate like a boxer, weaving to and fro. You zero in on the sistas, and then you won’t let go. Some of this is taunting, frankly. I understand their frustration, and their sense that you are not listening.
Since ms sassy has appealed directly to ms walsh, what the heck:
1. Ms walsh, do you agree with my root premise-that since both ms liza and ms sassy freely admitted that my original question had nothing to do with them, that it indeed seems just a weebit odd for either to even join in on the discussion to begin with?
2. Do you agree, that ones point is more important than how he or she presents it? If so/not, why?
3. Do you agree that by all accounts, both ms sassy and ms liza are indeed quite vocal participants in this forum-and as such are indeed fair game for whatever they say? If not, why?
4. It seems that the guys who matter in this forum, seem to share my views wrt ms sassy and ms liza-kios is certainly one of them; herb is another. Are they onto something or are we all way off the mark? Please explain?
5. Was my initial question-however provocative it may be-legitimate? If not, why?
Lets see what happens…
O.
@Sassy
Obsidian can be maddening. Engaging him one on one can be trying and frustrating. He does have a tendency to bob, weave and move the goalposts. He knows this perfectly well – his reputation for this is legendary.
I owe Obs a debt of gratitude and I like him very much personally. He is extremely ethical in his dealings with women. He’s one of the smartest guys in the ‘sphere. To the extent that I know Game, it’s thanks to Obs. He is a loyal friend. We are such a funny pair, but we enjoy and respect one another.
I am in the process of telling him to lay off re you, Liza and RWC. He won’t listen to me, so the best thing you can do if you don’t want to engage is not reply to him directly. Any “Hmmmmmm?” should be ignored!
In a larger community it is difficult to build a reputation. A man’s work doesn’t confer prestige the way it once did; if women engage in it too it can’t be all that special and if they don’t, it bears a stigma. Women don’t observe men other than coworkers displaying their main area of competence.
Women are reduced to observing tertiary, behavioral markers. This would account for some of the confusion.
Feynman was brilliant.
@ms sassy:
Both thras and mcb mentioned me by name and agreed with my position. Mcb specifically mentioned essence magazine, which jill scott is associated; and thras, twice now, has gone on record with agreeing with my position; the first time he specifically mentioned me by name. The second, he specifically mentioned YOU by name and that was in the context of the debate we were having.
The point is more important that how its made.
But since you want to find the direct quotes-thats your baby not mine-im pretty sure you can find said quotes in the comments…somewhere.
If you start now, you should be able to find them before midnight.
Chop chop!
O.
@Ramble
I think you jumped the gun on moral superiority, but I think that’s natural enough. I’ve derided bleeding heart liberals enough to sympathize. I hope I’m not conveying superiority, but if I am I need to know that. That is NOT how I want to come across. I’m a straight shooter, when I do discuss race I try to do so without any patronizing white guilt.
So I have one funny story re the girls at Mother Caroline’s. All the girls in the school are young women of color. Many are the daughters of immigrants. The school was founded by nuns, but is not affiliated with the church. There is no tuition, but families must earn credits. One of the ways they can do that is by having the parents attend ESL classes. I do a conversational course for people who have gone through Level IV. The mix is amazing. Somalian, Cape Verdean, Haitian, Vietnamese, Brazilian, Dominican, Puerto Rican. Since this is a convo class, people can suggest any topic they like. Whew, it’s fascinating to see people learning about one another. One time a Hispanic man said that he thought a Somalian woman’s burqa was inappropriate. That was an interesting class. Another time a woman came in whose daughter had gone to MCA, which is a middle school, and had just been admitted early with a full ride to Williams College. One Haitian woman had been a real life Cinderella – her mother died and when her father remarried it was decided that the woman’s children would go to school but she would stay home to cook and clean. Her dream was to learn how to read.
Anyway, one spring I met with the 8th graders to talk to them about moving on from MCA. Most of them were off to good schools where they would be a minority for the first time in their lives. I asked them if they had ever encountered racism. I was stunned when every single girl said no. Then one girl shot her arm in the air.
“Yes I have! I have been discriminated against by my sister! She said I have nappy roots!”
Those girls go on to do amazing things, by the way. Like I said. On the margins.
True. Obs, I miss the old blog. Any thoughts of a new platform?
@Tom
It’s true. Men who prefer short-term mating are constantly seeking new sex partners. They’re often Dark Triad types, so women don’t stick around, which suits them fine. It’s a revolving door of NSA sex. Apparently, some men are perfectly suited to this lifestyle. They are terrible in relationships, but it doesn’t matter because they don’t want them.
Of course, it’s tragic (and tragically stupid) when women think they can get more from those guys.
@Susan, ENY
My wifes parents acceptance of me was pushed along by a few things:
i) STEM background. (Specific job title(s) specifically. There were two translations she used. The first got me an eyebrow raise, second got me a pat on the back welcome to the family.)
ii) I knew NOTHING about the culture but I tried really, really hard to figure it out as quickly as I could. (Other note, many, many cultural differences in forming the relationship and we’re hitting a few more now. Compromise has always been a neceassity. Some of the things we do must look nuts to ppl in both cultures. Most of these had to do with manners which we both happen to be sticklers for.)
iii) Her Dad loves Asian Chess (don’t know the real name) which is ridculously complicated and he is an excellent strategist. She got him to teach it to me one evening and I was beating him before I went to sleep. (Her brother as well actually.) Which granted me a great deal of, shall we call it, eau de ‘ohh he’s not a complete fucking dumbass.’
Also, both the lady and her parents worry was that I was going to be just another cheating white guy. This white American dudes are fluffy bunnies stereotype was not present when I ran the gambit. (However I suppose odds wise I was still less likely to cheat but by no means did they think it was probable I wouldn’t.)
Very disappointed that my post linking a ton of videos from different pickup companies and notable names was not approved and possibly just deleted.
It would let people see real PUAs in action and let them decide for themselves how “hurt” girls are by the interactions or how “evil” pickup really is.
…or do we only discuss fictional pretend pickup stories written by women and played on national TV here? Is dissecting an episode of Girls REALLY more productive than dissecting actual live pickup demonstrations?
But hey do what you like lol
Ms walsh, i just want to ask you a question straight up, real rap:
Do you believe-based on everything you know about black america currently-based on everything you know about human mating to date-based on everything youve seen firsthand in your life as regards strong couples and families:
Do black women select for intelligence, in their men?
Yes-or no?
Mind you-we are not talking whether black women have the right to choose whatever in their men.
We are not talking about “swirling” black women either.
Nor are we putting a value judgment right/wrong on this question…
We are simply taking a look at black america circa 2012, through the lens of three years worth of hus postings and philosophy and outlook, and simply posing a simple question.
So ms walsh:
What say ye?
O.
@sassy
I haven’t read all of this thread and your back and forth, but you need to understand that you are wasting your time – you’ll never reach closure with him. Secondly, you should be aware that, despite what he says, black woman – white male relationships drive him bananas. Although he would mock white guys who resented black male/white female relationships as being threatened and insufficiently “alpha”, when he discovered a couple of sites where black women espoused seeking relationships with white men, he simply would not leave them alone. He’s “crazy obsessed” with the relatively few black women who “swirl”, but he just can’t admit to himself that it’s because of the threatening aspect of having his tribe’s women poached. So he will stoop to insuinating that you have abandoned your race, etc., but will not bother to do the same with black men who date white women.
As to interractial dating, the only ones in this country who had much to complain about where east asian men, because the asian community was low in numbers and many women were dating white men by preference, while the converse was not true (i.e., white women were not anxious to date asian guys, for the most part). Those guys had a legit gripe, IMO. However, I’m starting to notice a lot more white woman asian male couples, so maybe that has gone by the wayside. Personally, I found asian women absolutely wonderful, but didn’t like hitting backstops all the time.
(ok, TMI, I know).
“They are terrible in relationships, but it doesn’t matter because they don’t want them.”
They would “get better” at it and rather quickly if women were not so out there servicing them with all that expressing embracing exploring and shaking off oppression [in consort with their oppressors!]. And they would be more inclined if there was more committable wife value presenting itself. But alas, here we are.
In response to mr(?) passer by:
My blog is an open book-i defy him to prove his allegations. I have posted ONE comment on a bwe blog, beyond black and white. That comment become the topic of an article thats both at my blog and at the spearhead. Moreover as ive said before: the online response on the part of brothas to “swirlers” is almost always to the “black men aint sh*t”ology that A LOT of bwe blogs trade in-even ms royale has voiced some concern over this (she is more than welcome to correct me if im wrong).
Furthermore: as ive been saying from the rip, my concern was black couples/black folk, not “swirlers”. It was the “swirlers” themselves, who went there first-not me. I responded but i didnt start it. Thats important to consider here.
So, i welcome mr passer by’s response. Let er rip…
O.
@Dinkney
Wow, you’re so right, but I’ve never thought of that. It’s got to be harder for men to earn prestige from other men if women are saying, “So what? I can do better.”
@yareallypua
I don’t have that post. You asked me to clear it, but it wasn’t there. Not sure what happened, as you know I let all your other links through. If by any chance you copy saved it, by all means submit again and I’ll be happy to approve. As you know, the spam filter is suspicious of links, so those comments always go into moderation.
In light of the fact that I let you use HUS as a platform for a day, I think your accusation is in poor form. You mentioned at one point that you were surprised you hadn’t been banned. My reply is that I do not ban people for disagreement, only for uncivil behavior. You were extremely civil here, and therefore I have no desire to suppress your message. We’re all adults, and people can decide what’s right for them. Carry on if you like.
@Lokland
Ahem (clears throat). I sincerely hope that you live up to this expectation. I don’t care what your wife says, I am telling you it will mean the world to her if you are monogamous. I have taken you at your word on this.
Obsidian:
As you well know, your blog from that period was shut down by Wordpress (for unrelated reasons, I gather). But my reaction was based more on my recollection of the discussions on those other sites (and, no, I didn’t bookmark them – I have a little bit of a life). It was pretty clear to me that they had said all they wished to say to you on the subject, but you just wouldn’t let it go (all the while, of course, purporting not to have any real problem with the idea of “swirling” as you call it). I just found this seeming obsesssion with it odd and hypocritical, given that the inter-racial dating numbers favor black men and given your condescension toward those white men who complained about it. (my personal view is that the numbers are statistically insiginificant in the white community, especially given the offset of white men with asian women).
Since Dinkney mentioned Feynman…there’s a pretty good movie, starring Matthew Broderick and Patricia Arquette, about Feynman and his girlfriend/wife. Title is “Infinity”
This white American dudes are fluffy bunnies stereotype was not present when I ran the gambit.
First welcome back!
Second. The issue is that what the old generation hears from white men and what the new generation hears can be contradictory. Also as mentioned before you are competition for their males, so its not like there are not losses specially if the Asian Males are getting the short end of the stick. I can only imagine Asian males being as bitter as Beta guys left on the shelf. The males in danger will take any “rumor” or love story go wrong to make you look the worst they can and targeting the parents works better than targeting the men. Dominican men started by telling me that “White men don’ t cheat because they are gay and cold, cold meaning they don’t like sex and you will end up in a sexless marriage with them, trying to convince me that a true man is a sex machine and the price to pay is sharing it with other women…*puke*” and ended up telling others of similar leanings when I shut up so I don’t have to hear their lies that “white men are just better at covering up with their “innocent act” using examples like Clinton and all the sports guy that are found cheating as “proof” so yeah there is a lot going on in interracial competition, YMMV.
@passerby:
Surely you must know that making an accusation without any proof to back it up is at the very least in poor form yes? My former blog-the circumstances of which i have addressed at the spearhead and my current blog as well-had a mere fraction of overall posts devoted to “swirling” in comparison to other topics. Again: i am responding to the “black men aint sh*t”ology that is VERY STRONG in the bwesphere. I say to all reading this: please do not take my word for it; see for yourself. Read the blogs for yourself and then make a decision.
My current blog also, has a mere fraction of its posts devoted to the bwe topic; at best two dozen out of more than two hundred. Hardly an “obsession” by any standard.
The problem here, is just like the one ramble was speaking to earlier-you are not allowed to notice thing outloud, nor are you allow to question said things.
Theres a blog up right now that i read but dont comment on and he is definitely a redpill-”black men confronting the lies and distortions”. I challenge passer by to read that blog and then tell me that rocky, the bloggers name, is just one more “jilted brotha”.
O.
“Surely you must know that making an accusation without any proof to back it up is at the very least in poor form yes?”
No, since I’m not suggesting that anything be done to your detriment. I’m simply sharing with Sassy my past impressions so she can act accordingly. She can either accept my observations or reject them based on her views of my credibility and how my observations line up with her experiences with you. I don’t feel that I am prevented from sharing that with her based on the fact that I didn’t bookmark exchanges from 2 years ago or more and the fact I don’t feel like doing 10 hours of internet research. No skin off of your back either way. No more to be said about it from my end. Good luck in stamping out the swirling epidemic.
“The problem here, is just like the one ramble was speaking to earlier-you are not allowed to notice thing outloud, nor are you allow to question said things. ”
Welcome to the life of every straight white and asian male in the last 40 years.
“I challenge passer by to read that blog and then tell me that rocky, the bloggers name, is just one more “jilted brotha”.”
I have no idea what this means or is in reference to, but it seems to be a complete non-sequitur and/or change in topic, which I have no desire to pursue.
Earlier today, travis asked a very powerful question:
Whats evopsych’s take on race?
Well ive wondered that very same thing myself. Heres my spin on it:
Last year there was a big huge controversey, concerning one saotoshi kanazawaa, and evopsych out of the london school of economics (lse). He had published an article on the psychology today website, that basically said some things black women didnt happen to like. He got booted from pt and nearly lost his job at lse (shades of john derbyshire anyone?).
In his “the evolution of desire” buss has about two pages, max, on race, specifically african americans. My sense is that this is not an accident-evopsych is in hot water enough as it is from juist about all sides including a very influential and powerful feminist lobby. Taking on the explosive topic of race, especially along human mating lines (sex), is just too much to bear. After all evopsychs got bills to pay and kids to feed too.
But the questions like the ones you raised remain-and since nature abhors a vacuum, if the evopsychs wont investigate them somebody else will.
That somebody, is what is known in some circles as the hbdsphere, led by one steve sailer. Indeed since weve been discussin ir dating/mating, “swirling” and the like, you all might want to check out his “is love colorblind?” article, which hes recently updated. Say what you will of sailer buit the guy is dogged in speaking aloud what we all arent supposed to notice and i for one respect the heck out of that. So long as the mainstreamers wont do its job-investigate and find out the truth whatever the cost wherever it leads-others can and will.
In an age of information like ours, where everyone can be a citizen journalist the last things any professional should do is punt. They must have the backbone to go there-whatever there means.
O.
Ps: i dont think there will be much male intrasexual competition-quite the reverse in fact. You heard it here first.
@Susan
Said I wouldn’t. So I won’t.
I’m not some Energizer Willpower Bunny or anything I’ll just do the same thing I did to drop weight after highschool. Remove the temptation.
Don’t want sugar. Don’t buy it and run when I’m tempted.
Don’t want to cheat. Don’t be attractive and cut off any sprouting buds that shoot up where I stand.
@Ana
Thank you.
Second, white woman dating out has never really concenrned me. Excluding my first crush back in highschool and once more in early grad school they have never been the top of the pile. I don’t feel at a loss when this occurs.
Second, white woman dating out has never really concenrned me. Excluding my first crush back in highschool and once more in early grad school they have never been the top of the pile. I don’t feel at a loss when this occurs.
I never said it concerns you but if you were an Asian guy that can see desirable women opting out again and again for other races you might see things differently, YMMV.
@passer by:
I mentioned black confronting the lies and distortions to offer proof of my position: that what online opposition to the “swirlers” was in the main in response to the “black men aint sh*t”ology that is so very palpable in the bwesphere. It is fully understandable if you cant see it that way; after all you have a dog in the fight. But its there nonetheless and i invite anyone who wishes to see for themselves to do so.
Again you make a claim yet cant back it up. Meanwhile i have made my position on the matter clear. My posts are available for all to see; they can count and read them for themselves and then decide.
I for one am completely cool with that.
O.
Btw, passerby, since i got you here:
Quick question-do you think black women select for intelligence in their (black) men?
Yes or no?
O.
“that what online opposition to the “swirlers” was in the main in response to the “black men aint sh*t”ology that is so very palpable in the bwesphere.”
Ok, I think I get it now – I didn’t previously know what you meant by “bwesphere”, but I think I have a sense of it. But, again, in the aggregate, the numbers tend to favor you as a black male, so the obsession with it seems over the top.
“It is fully understandable if you cant see it that way; after all you have a dog in the fight. ”
Yeah, nice try. The only with a dog in this fight is you. “I’ve obviously struck a raw nerve here with you that really hurts.”
@Obs
From what I’ve seen at HUS, I would say that intelligent women of all races prioritize intelligence in mating. Smart women tend to get together with smart men. OTOH, some smart men like bimbos, and some like ‘em dumb, drunk and easy! So it can be a challenge for smart girls.
@Ana
Oops.
Pardon the terseness(?) of the last paragraph. There was a bit more (intended) but a shiny object floated by and I got distracted.
It should have worked into a .. but I can understand (insert what you said).
Then from there I was going to work into another line of thought about boyfriends in uni and how looking out my window (not now) I can see that some of that Asian guys not dating white women starting to blur. Not to the same degree but it is increasing.
@obsidian
“Quick question-do you think black women select for intelligence in their (black) men?”
I’m not sure I’m close enough to the issue to know, and maybe I shouldn’t even answer. But I’ll bite anyway and give my general impression (recognizing, of course, that there exceptions to any generality):
1. Middle to upper class black women – “generally, yes”
2. Black women (of any class) that have the SMV to attract high profile black athletes or entertainers – answer: “to some degree, but not as much 1″
3. Black women of lower income and education – Answer “Hell no, because his income/provider potential has been rendered largely irrelevant, anyway.”
An number 3 is obviously why most black men have little or no incentive to achieve academically.
@passerby:
Again-prove it. My blog awaits.
Also:
Do you think black women select for intelligence in their (read: black) men?
Yes or no?
O.
@Abbot
I don’t think so, I think some men are truly not wired for long-term. The Dark Triad traits are heritable and pretty much guarantee a constant need to be in the hunt.
@passerby:
Hmm…so it seems by your answer, that for the most part, black women do NOT select for intelligence in their men, because #3 is the majority black women/men.
Oh and im not saying that i entirely buy your thesis as to why black men dont achieve; i have an alternate theory, and thats because they dont see any payoff in it. We can discuss that further if you like.
@ms walsh:
You are nothing if not diplomatic. So let me ask you this:
What fraction in your mind, of black americas women, smart?
O.
Obsidian- from what I can see around here, most young black women are not choosing intelligence at all, at least not in the traditional sense. However many of these guys are “street smart” and although that doesn’t count for much in academia, I wouldn’t call any one of them stupid. But primarily I see the biggest thugs and “bad boy” types are never short on female attention. And as I’ve said before, these are not stupid girls either. I get the impression that many of these girls simply do not believe they can do better even if they tried. And honestly the pickings probably aren’t so good around here in terms of young decent guys. To be sure they exist, but they are not hanging out on the street corners or alleys, because they are busting thier asses at crappy jobs.
All that being said, I have no first hand experience with this. All I base this on is what I see, and like I said, the decent guys (and gals for sure) simply aren’t hanging around making trouble.
Not to the same degree but it is increasing.
I will guess that it will take some time but it will eventually grow. Anime is growing and I think pop culture is very good at selling some types as the best, also I know a lot of Korean Soap Opera fans with posters of hot leading men from then and Dr Suresh and Hiro from Heroes were also quite popular with the ladies. I personally don’t get it since I used to have crushes on Asian guys as a teen, but as noted I’m weird like that.
“Oh and im not saying that i entirely buy your thesis as to why black men dont achieve; i have an alternate theory, and thats because they dont see any payoff in it.”
I’m not sure we’re saying entirely different things. Much of “payoff” is mate value and providing a good life for your kids as you raise them. While it’s nice to think of success and all that as it’s own reward, Chris Rock (or whoever it was) was somewhat right when he said that if most guys could laid living in a cardboard box, that’s how they would live. Perhaps more accurately, the unpleasantness of working hard for years as a child and adolescent to position yourself for success would be too much of a deterrent to overcome.
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