It is a man’s job to sexually escalate with a woman he is attracted to. As women control access to sex, he risks rejection in his quest to get it. Indeed, if women are appropriately discerning in their choice of sexual partner, most men will be rejected most of the time. Even hard core players confess to a 90% failure rate. Their strategy is based on volume rather than quality of approaches.
Many women feel entitled to audition would-be lovers very selectively. If they experience a lack of attention – no guy shows up to audition – they blame men. If a guy does show up but decides not to stick around, he’s a douche. That’s not reasonable. You have no right to call a guy a jerk just because he doesn’t like you. Maybe you need to be more likable, or maybe you’re not compatible despite the initial chemistry.
The problem with this sense of entitlement is that it creates total passivity on the girl’s part. You don’t have very good control of your dating life if you are always waiting for a call or hoping the perfect guy is going to see you from across the room and say to his buddy, “See that girl in the red dress? I’m going to marry her.”
Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.
A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. Women want emotional intimacy during sex, but they have sex before creating a foundation of emotional connection. Doing that work is your job, not his. If you hope for commitment, it makes no sense to leave it to chance, dreaming that a guy will fall for you based on your looks alone, or because you’re good in bed. A man will offer commitment when he is sufficiently emotionally invested to make the tradeoff to forfeit sexual variety. Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.
How to Escalate Emotionally with a Man
1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him.
Evolutionary psychologist David Buss surveyed American men to ask them which traits they consider most important for long-term mating. Out of 67 named traits, the number one priority for men was sexual faithfulness. (This is why guys are judgmental about your number – it’s a proxy for predicted future behavior.) Reader Lokland shared a valuable personal insight:
In the intial dating phase (say 6 months) the guy will be subconsciously (potentially consciously) looking for reasons to rule you out as a girlfriend.
One of those disqualifiers would definitely be trying to garner attention from other males. Call them faithfulness tests which utilize a pass-fail system initially.
Biologists believe that jealousy evolved as a way for males to prevent being cuckolded by other men. Jealousy reduces the likelihood that a woman will cheat. However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest.
Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way. Men at HUS have said repeatedly that they want a woman to be hard to get for everyone else and easy to get for them alone.
That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
Reader Hope shared some excellent ways that a woman can show genuine interest in one particular man.
- Ask him about the things he enjoys. Indicate that you’d like to try some with him.
- Show that you care about the big picture stuff, like his work or school, but take the time to check in on the day to day. How was work today? How did your interview go?
- Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side.
- Get to know as much as you can about his family and friends. Give him strokes for being good to his mom, or being close with his siblings. Express interest in meeting his friends.
You need to calibrate your level of interest to suit the progression of the relationship. Don’t get way ahead of him, just draw him out gradually from the start to make your interest in him as a person clear. As Hope said, there is a risk here:
The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /
This is where women risk rejection. You can minimize your risk by screening carefully for traits that indicate he is a good guy who is open to a relationship. As Hope pointed out in a comment, sociopaths don’t open up emotionally – if you’re showing clear signs of emotional investment and he’s holding you at arm’s length, drive on. Another warning sign is when his behavior is inconsistent. He’s warm and cuddly when the two of you are alone together, then you meet up in a group and he avoids eye contact. No bueno.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
One of the ways that women bond and establish new friendships is by revealing vulnerabilities to one another. When a woman shares a confidence or asks advice from another woman, she is signaling that she likes her, trusts her, and wants to increase the intimacy in the relationship. Often the other female will respond in kind. This works with men too.
It can be a problem you want to talk out, or a request that he help you put your IKEA furniture together. We all like to be needed, and we increase our emotional connection to others when we do kind things for them. He will probably like you more if you give him the opportunity to help you out.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
Men love to be appreciated for their efforts and for investing in a woman, including monetarily. Too often women take men for granted when it comes to paying, or doing them favors (see IKEA request above). Reader J shared some great suggestions:
I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:
1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
3. Give honest compliments.
4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.
5. Share a lust for life.
Hope again:
One thing that really gets guys going is a girl who is positive, full of life, and laughs a lot. A pretty girl smiling a genuinely happy smile as she looks into his eyes for a long time — that makes a man melt. I’ve never had a guy compliment me on my frown, but I have been told that my face lights up when I smile. A positive girl makes people around her feel more energized, which is very attractive. No needy, clingy, bitter, depressed or unhappy vibes.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.
Again, this is where the risk of rejection happens for women. That’s OK, because it’s your job in the mating dance. This is where you lead. Go out on a limb. Say what you need to say. This is the one that sealed the deal for me with my husband, by the way.
Reader Anacaona shared a great example of this. She had a strategy for meeting a man, and when she found one she liked, she made it very clear. Even though he was in another country, she made it easy for him to want to commit to her.
I was honest about how things were progressing for me. I sent the first message online, and in February when we had accumulated several hours online I sent him a Valentine. I think that made my husband feel more confident to pursue me further, especially because in the USA men are expected to give Valentines while it is more or less optional for women.
Also, I have high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remembered them and asked him a lot about them. I also asked him about his old girlfriends. This is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men, women in his past occupy a special place so sharing these important emotional milestones with him makes you special to him.
I never asked him for presents, except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times. He made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band. Once we decided he would come and visit, I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him.
As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like. This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.
BUT. You should also tell him that the throbbing between your legs is about to drive you insane, and that you look forward to keeping him up all night. Also, as we’ve discussed here many times, he is not going to want to wait if other guys haven’t. If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.
Although it’s obvious, it bears mentioning that there are ways to please him sexually as you become secure in his affection. Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock. He will reward you emotionally.
By the way, a lot of what’s described in this post is what men call femininity.
Each sex has a job to do in finding the balance between sex and commitment. Embrace your role and your responsibility from the start. Nurture the emotional connection from the moment you meet someone. It’s never too early.
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I want to pick a small nit and say that you should only focus all of your sexual attraction on him if that is what you are genuinely feeling. I understand that many will respond with, “Well, duh!”, but I think it is important to say.
It’s OK if you like some guy, but you are not that sexually attracted to him. Better to recognize this and THEN figure out your game plan, then try to force something.
Hope, Susan,
Apparently guys are not all that smart when it comes to evaluating a girls smile. Girls, unsurprisingly, much better at determining exactly what is being communicated with the various kinds of smiles that people offer. Whereas guys really like seeing a girl smile and don’t always pick up on that different nuances.
Susan, you might want to clarify what you are saying here so that you don’t have one of your readers do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94wGndbOIPk
“Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock.”
I’m REALLY looking forward to the comments on this thread
Just1X, welcome back.
Hi Ramble,
I over did the blog reading for a while there and have scaled back the hours spent on the web. Been looking in from time to time, but with posts getting 1000+ comments it’s tough to commit. I need to be getting techy again soon, but for this thread, well I can’t resist seeing where it’s going to go…sits back with a glass of wine (for medicinal purposes)
This male endorses your post.
Haha, I knew what that would be before I clicked on it. Did you notice the sign on the cash register? “If you’re going to shoplift, let us know.”
I’ll be happy to clarify that women should not use that approach. I didn’t do it in the post because it’s obviously addressed to women who aren’t going to “go with guys” after a couple of hangs.
A discerning woman who is not promiscuous should not be building up to a relationship in this way very often. The BJ should come only after she feels secure emotionally.
Haha, I am glad we lured you out of retirement!
@Just1X
Haha, you always do this on Fridays! I find myself envying you as my weekend is still several hours away.
“If you’re going to shoplift, let us know.”
That movie was shot right next to where I went to school.
Hey the wine is for medicinal use!
There was this zombie ambush and a ‘charger’ slammed me over the bonnet (hood) of a truck and pummeled me and I pulled a muscle in my back.
Part of that was true (you can take a wild stab as to which part), but anyway, my back is killing me and the painkillers require liquid reinforcement.
But Yes! let the weekend roll. Only two days long this time, but I’m starting early
However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest.
Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest.
Projection.
The only reason I can imagine that women would think that tactic would work on a man is that it works so well on a woman.
Two rules that women must understand:
1. The feminine attracts the masculine
2. Men are the gatekeepers to commitment
Okay, I just had to pick myself up off the floor. Best laugh I’ve had in weeks.
Not because of the material here; I think these are good things for a woman to do while progressing into a serious relationship. It’s because you actually said “women need to blink first.”
You honestly expect them to do THAT?!
They have NO reason to do so now. They have the legal power to ruin men at a whim. They can walk away from ANY relationship at ANY time and extract a benefit on the way. I’ve personally heard teenage girls talk about how ‘they’ decide when it’s time for a relationship.
You may want women to understand that they need to invest in cementing a relationship. It does indeed provide incentive for a man to commit.
But with the legal AND social environments the way they are now? I wouldn’t bet a penny on it happening en masse any time soon. Not with near-daily “man up!” articles coming out, vitriol hurled at men just for standing in a bookstore’s childrens section, men blamed for their wives/girlfriends cheating…nope.
===========
That said, here’s a brief comment on one paragraph’s contents.
“As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like.”
Of course he will. If he doesn’t push, the woman will see him as a beta chump & lose attraction. We’ve even seen such behavior described here.
“This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.”
Agreed. It’s okay to say no – IF you’ve made it clear that you do find him desirable, and want to continue the escalation. Otherwise, well, you’re just stringing him along.
“If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.”
And how’s he supposed to know that’s actually true? Answer: He can’t. There’s no way he can be sure. So he’ll be cautious–and he has every right to be. Sorry, harsh truth.
Again, there is good advice for the social side of relationships here. But the legal side of things now is so corrosive that it erodes the foundation out from under the social side.
“However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest. ”
This is so, so true. I broke up with my girlfriend over this recently; we were each other’s firsts. She tried to stop me by telling me she loved me … even though she was regularly seeking attention from other guys, including my roommates. In every other way she was exactly what I was looking for (smart, attractive, kind, well educated, making excellent money out of college–in fact, she did everything suggested on the list except item (1)) and I was rather seriously thinking longer term, but this one thing was a deal breaker. There are plenty of women who find me attractive, and I would rather be with one who wants *me*–even if she is not as competent as my ex-girlfriend.
Facebook messaging my roommate (whom she only met through me), telling him “it was so nice to see you and I’m sorry we didn’t get to talk more!!!!” when she visiting me, inviting other guy “friends” on ski trips we take together … such behavior is not consistent with telling me I’m a hot guy and then, shortly thereafter, mentioning that, long term, she wants to marry a hot guy.
I do think she genuinely cared about me and was trying to make me jealous. Indeed, it worked… I was jealous. The thing is, though, the jealousy did not make me want her more; instead, it made me resent the time I had put into the relationship. I have no interest in competing with other men … I am who I am–take it or leave it.
Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to. You’d think getting poor results would clue us in, but often we do get a rise out of a guy this way, even if it’s him getting very angry. We then interpret that as “he cares” and expect our stock to rise, when in reality he’s already dumping it. Because there’s often a time lag, women remain clueless.
@Just1X
Oh, sorry to hear that! I hope at least the weather is crappy if you’re flat on your back.
Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to.
And it is equally baffling to men why entertaining another woman’s flirtations in front of your wife or girlfriend will make her want to rip your clothes off later that night.
@Susan
“I hope at least the weather is crappy”
Oh don’t worry, we have crap weather up to the top of our waders over here. And the medication means that I am feeling little pain right now.
I like ‘N’s style – just say no to game playing. It will be interesting to see whether the females here think that she might have been doing it out of insecurity…? Personally I think N was bang on.
Any difference of opinion will be most instructive for the purposes of the post…
If a man claims women are the gatekeepers then he is slut shaming. Because its all slutshaming. If its disagreeable, its slutshaming. Note this quote:
“You get the feeling when guys rant about hating make-up that they’re kind of calling you a slut for wearing it.”
Yep, that is our very own Amanda Marcotte who is referring to this –
http://cdn.slacktory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dear-girls-dress-as-i-dictate.jpeg
So basically any opinion you have about how you prefer women is well, slut shaming. How convenient, that slutshame card.
How about a SlutShameWalk so men can finally reclaim the word and own it!
@N
Great comment, I’m going to pull out and bold part so that women will see it again:
Since its a fact that women control access to sex then controlling or restricting it puts her on a high pedestal for good men seeking to commit. Universally.
There’s so much here, in the OP and the comments, that I agree with that I care to mention. (it’s almost everything that has been said)
“However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest. ”
I’ve done this. Usually how “crazy” I am over a girl only affects my level of interest so much – and it’s usually more to do with how I view hers.
If I think the she is somewhat “undecided” in either her attraction towards me, or what she wants from a relationship, I’ll choose to work on getting rid of my feels (cause I really don’t like someone else having influence my emotions) over trying to produce them in her.
If I have to work to ‘convince’ her of her own interest, then her mind is bound to change back eventually. (this is why I’m not a huge fan of suggesting Game to acquire LTRs)
“Cast the Principle of Least Interest aside, and stop worrying about who has the upper hand”
I think this is excellent advice for both sexes.
Great post, Susan.
Just1X, it’s great to see you back. I’ve missed your humour!
Excellent post Susan. I’ve committed many of these tips to memory already.
It’s good to be reminded of what I need to do, as a woman, to make any man feel like the king I believe him to be. When you treat a man like a king, he’ll return the favor by treating you like a queen, for the most part.
Sassy, I understand and appreciate what you were trying to say, but, men, in general, do not want a Queen, and very often do not want a princess.
They want the girl next door.
I understand that you were saying to “treat her like a queen” and not that they wanted one, but, still, they are high maintenance.
See there. You and Roissy/Roosh are not so far apart after all. Yea feminity!
@N
Young man, your game is definitely sub-par.
1) You had one-itis.
2) You have swallowed the feminist lie that “education” and “earning power” of a potential mate really matter to your long-term happiness.
3) You got butt-hurt because she was flirting with other men
4) Instead of getting all bent out of shape about her inviting male friends on ski trips, you should have escalated. Either tell her to invite every other guy friend that she’s thinking about fucking (and then break up with her), or tell her you’re invited some of your better looking female friends along too, implying they are backup plans for yourself.
5) The only long term female attributes that you should focus on are these: attractive, kind, and wise (not smart, wise. Look up the difference).
@ Ramble
No problem man. I agree with you. Being high maintenance can definitely be a turn off.
Being treated like a king or queen, in my opinion, is like a reciprocal benefit. The effect compounds on itself the more that each person is treated well. A woman treats a man like a king. In return, the man treats the woman like a queen. Since she is also being shown love and devotion, she ups the amount of love and devotion she shows her man. The cycle continues around and around.
Nothing is worse, from either side, to do nice things for someone you care about and they don’t show you the same kindness in return.
I have a great example of this. Once, for my ex-boyfriend, I planned a surprise candlelit dinner. I made fresh spinach lasagna, I lit candles, I played soft music, the whole shebang. I even bought myself one of those frilly feminine aprons insprired by the 40s/50s. When he got home and saw the surprise I had planned for him, he was unappreciative. He blew out the candles, turned off the music, and only ate one slice of the lasagna. He never touched it again, and I ended up eating the rest of it over the next 2 weeks so that it wouldn’t go to waste.
It’s safe to assume that I rarely cooked for him anymore after that. His actions showed me that he didn’t really like the gesture.
When I meet the love of my life, who showers me with love/affection, you can bet that I’ll enjoy spoiling him rotten with food and a heaping helping of affection.
Not sure if this has been posted, but here’s a “cautionary tale” article from CNN.
^ D’oh. Here’s the link:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/08/living/confessions-ex-sex-kitten-o/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
Thanks for the shot out.
Two in the same week. Athol’s new post was about the issues with my possibly soon exbestfriend. Hopefully the week/month will keep being so nice to me.
@Also – thanks, your greeting is appreciated and it’s nice to look back in.
I’d have been back sooner if I’d known Sassy was doing humour on the scale of
“When you treat a man like a king, he’ll return the favor by treating you like a queen, for the most part”
I LMAO when I got to the ‘for the most part’ – fantastic, I lurve that one.
@Sassy have you been taking lessons from Mr Munson?
@Sassy
What a crank! I don’t know if he’d had a bad day or what but that is just inexcusable.
I always found that cooking for men was a great shortcut to emotional investment. There’s something about the nurturing that goes into preparing and feeding a man that they just adore. Then you give them an hour to digest before taking their hand and leading them into the bedroom. That’s the grand slam of Girl Game, in my experience. There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.” Today’s women have substituted penis for stomach, but the original version is the one that rings true.
@ Just1X
Haha! No, I haven’t.
Speaking of Munson, I haven’t heard from him in awhile on here. I wonder what he’s up to.
Again, I understand what you are saying about reciprocating, and, I agree.
But, I want to re-iterate that it is very possible that girls want their man to be their “King”, whereas, the man, in return, will want to reciprocate in a way that does NOT make her his “Queen” (or Princess).
Question:
If women do the rejecting, and women are only interested in average men when it’s time to get married; why don’t women approach when for some magical reason the women perceive the average man to be an Alpha?
I see Alpha males all the time getting hit on, being taken by the hand and such into the bathroom to have sex etc etc.
I have never seen Alpha Males suffering the need to approach women, so why should the average man?
Example, went to college today. My dad came along because he’s retired and doesn’t like to sit home all day. After I did what I had to do, we go to the train station. My father, being an engineer, worked as the lead engineer in many of the main subway hubs so he talks mightily and rules over his turf.
A very, very attractive 18-22 year old woman, dressed in very feminine attire, had her ears perk up. She obviously became aware that the man who was attracting all of the attention in the station was my father because I’m exactly like my dad, only one inch shorter and with dark hair.
The young woman stared for 5 minutes, at me. She’d try to catch my eye, then she’d fixate her eyes on me. I noticed her presence, obviously, but I made no move, as I’m used to being rejected by below average women(I don’t punch above my weight, and average men are at the bottom of the sexual market) so when the young woman began to send these signs of interest I looked the other way.
Our train arrived and the girl, instead of coming up to me and entering my carriage, elected to enter the carriage next to my carriage. She looked at me, entered the carriage, never to be seen again.
Actually, I think she might be a newcomer to my college, but I sure as heck ain’t gonna be searching the college for her, LOL.
I just don’t understand why she didn’t introduce herself to me. As she saw me with the eyes of Alphaness emanating from my father onto myself, she should have acted like all of the other women who go into 15 year old horny girl mode when an Alpha male is near them.
What’s up with this?
@Underdog
I wonder if the woman who wrote that article has any trouble finding relationships. She gave off an aura of contentment, which is hard to imagine.
There’s something about the nurturing that goes into preparing and feeding a man that they just adore.
In healthy eating class they taught us, that for most people dieting is hard because the first thing we do after the trauma of birth is being feed by our moms. The first comforting experience of going back to the warm we had is eating so must of us have a connection an emotional connection with food and I can say that mothers are always offering something to eat to their kids so yeah knowing how to cook should be on the base of femininity game. The dad might had hunt the mammut but the mother is the one cooking it and offering.
There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.”
Because the ribs don’t get in the way of the knife, to cut it out
Sorry, hubby loves that saying I can’t help but think about it every time I hear the first part.
@Susan
That was the first thing I thought about also. Google didn’t reveal much about her personal life.
@Susan -
Google Image that woman. I have to say the bar isn’t very high to be a sex kitten when you’re in your 20s.
The article doesn’t mention a significant man, and from what I know about Women Of A Certain Age, had there been one, he would have been not only mentioned, but lionized.
Like Lizzy Wurtzel, she’ll have her eloquence to keep her warm. You’ll have Mr. HUS.
After her prolific gatekeeper fail, this is what you get. It might be worth it, with some training, if not for the slew of pump and dumps.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/samir/overly-attached-girlfriend-is-the-girlfriend-mem?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=buzzfeed
I’ve for a question. (lol don’t I always!)
When a girl (usually an existing platonic one) says “I hate being single” or “I wish I had a boyfriend” – do they intend for it to be a clue for me to escalate?
I heard this a few times from girls I know, and quite honestly it always has me cringe and turns me off the idea of escalating. To me, it’s the equivalent of saying “gosh, there really isn’t a member of the opposite sex in my life which I find attractive” – which, IMO, is an indirect (and perhaps unintensional) insult.
Thoughts…?
JCclimber at 27:
That to me is a textbook example of the limits of game. If a girl behave’s like N’s, and it’s incumbent on me to do all that to keep her, then I don’t want her. You playas can have her.
Cooper:
No. It means, “You are a non-threatening beta to whom I can spill my guts and treat like an unpaid shrink, oblivious to your feelings as I blather about myself for hours on end.”
Coop, I’ve done this before:
[at some random house party]
Girl: Ugh, I hate being single.
Ramble: Come here. Come Here! Sit next to me, I’ll be your boyfriend for tonight. We will hold hands and then you can get me a beer.
(She giggles and sits next to me. I hold her hand and she will rest her head on my shoulder. A little later, “Be a good girl and get me a beer”. She smiles and gets me a beer.)
You can go all out with this. Girls love role playing.
Susan – I don’t have much time to post today as this is the last day out kids will be here for the summer. But I wanted to say this post is spot on to me. Or as Dog squat would say: steel on target.
Now to just convince the masses of brainwashed young women that being feminine is OK…
It’s cool to be quoted, SW. Thanks!
A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally.
Men don’t realize how risky this feels to women, but what the hell. If he rejects you emotionally, you sure don’t want to give him a chance to reject you sexually.
There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.”….Because the ribs don’t get in the way of the knife,
That’s a stitch.
@escoffier
Yeah, my prescription was rather difficult, I admit. I mean, opening your mouth and saying 2 sentences, or picking up the phone and inviting a couple female friends along, is so so hard to do!!!
Much harder than the many hours N has spent worrying about some foolish child who is desperate for a high value man to act like he has high value and some self-respect.
I suppose you could call me a player, as my wife called me when she first met me. But seriously, the one-itis is disgusting to both men and women alike. I mean, outside of romance novels and hollywood movies.
I’m not sure how useful the advice is since women are already considered sexual objects. They shouldn’t project sluttiness since it will be a turnoff for men seeking a long-term relationship. Surely, if a woman is interested, they should show interest instead of getting emotional or displaying sexual energy, which is the wrong impression.
@Mule
Ouch, she’s got that horsey look, and she’s a self-proclaimed reformed tramp of 40. She’s ready for the glue factory, with half her life still to go. As Underdog said, she’s a cautionary tale.
@Ramble
I didn’t realize you had such tight Game. That fake girlfriend bit was tingle inducing.
@Susan
“Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.”
Yes, the “great ones.” I remember that! I loved that movie. The narrator was smitten, and his love interest certainly was “elegant” as he had stated. That sub-plot was so sweet.
This blog post is extremely illuminating. It has never occurred to me to look at female emotional investment as a functional courting role. I never fully realized what the female equivalent of a man’s buying dinner was. Maybe I “knew” subconsciously, but I’ve never really looked at it this plainly before. You’re absolutely correct, it is often times rejected, but seeing this as similar to men’s trial and error is very comforting. I don’t feel so bad about past emotional rejections any more. It’s just a matter of him taking a look at your “wares” so to speak and deciding that he does or does not want them. Period. Nothing to do with him being a terrible person.
@Sassy
“I have a great example of this. Once, for my ex-boyfriend, I planned a surprise candlelit dinner. I made fresh spinach lasagna, I lit candles, I played soft music, the whole shebang. I even bought myself one of those frilly feminine aprons insprired by the 40s/50s. When he got home and saw the surprise I had planned for him, he was unappreciative. He blew out the candles, turned off the music, and only ate one slice of the lasagna.”
This strategy has one very critical nuance…it only works if you give him what he *wants*. Spinach lasagna sounds delicious, but if none of that experience appealed to him, then it’s nothing more than just a delicious spinach lasagna.
I always had mixed results until I figured this out. One ex contacted me 5 years after college to complain about his then wife. He asked if I could make him a peach cheesecake like I did for one of his past birthdays. Another ex called, also with complaints about his wife, and longed for the pancakes I used to make for him…stupid, simple instant pancakes. lol. And then there are times when I cooked and it had no impact. I think that the less you try to build up a grand mystique around the cooking, and the more “organic” the experience is, the more effective it is. Winning a man over through cooking is part technique (non-terrible cooking) and part opportunity (the right moment).
@Abbot
“After her prolific gatekeeper fail, this is what you get. It might be worth it, with some training, if not for the slew of pump and dumps.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/samir/overly-attached-girlfriend-is-the-girlfriend-mem?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=buzzfeed”
OMG, this is hilarious!
@ms royale:
Hmm. Ms sassys culinary faux pas and your response thereto, were quite interesting indeed on a whole host of levels. Illuminating indeed.
Reading about past boyfriends and such: i have, and would never, do such a thing, and do not understand for the life of me why apparently so many guys do this. It seems akin to a dog going back to lick up his own vomit if you will. Once im gone from a woman i do not look back. She may still live on in my memories but thats about it. The mere thought of doing what youve reported about past boyfriends and such is anathema to me; so alien as to be surreal in a salvador dali way.
O.
@ Royale
That’s possible. I knew he liked spinach lasagna though. I think he had experienced a very bad day at work that time. He seemed rather moody when he got home, and he took it out on me. Like Susan said, it was uncalled for.
@ Obsidian
I believe I caught him on the wrong day at the wrong time. I don’t believe that it was a faux pas at all.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest.
Where is the rule that tells you to apply previous rules with moderation? Seems like a straightforward thing to do, but in today’s society, everything is done in extreme measures. Don’t think most men want a clinger, which is the impression I get from reading the list.
Sassy sounds like quite a catch besides that whole “no-kids” thing.
@Obsidian
Sorry for the offensive stories, but that’s how I found out what impact those specific acts of cooking really had on them. If they never spoke up, I would have never realized it.
Perhaps the information age enables and encourages revisiting past SO’s. I was college friends with both the cheesecake ex-boyfriend and his wife and they were in my Facebook network. His wife divorced him, he contacted me, then I burned that bridge with napalm. The second had been my friend since childhood. There’s more history with him than just an “ex.”
Posting this here ’cause my posts didn’t seem to show up in the old Dominance thread so I don’t know if it’s locked for being old news or what haha Anyway, here y’all go:
I’m linking these videos so people can see what actual pickup in-field looks like. It’s generally not like the sleazy Hollywood player style pickup that you see in movies. In fact you’ll find a lot of this comes off as just normal fun flirty conversation between two people. Some of them are using “light game” some are using “dark game”, some are mixing a combo of the two together.
I also figure Friday is a good day to link these. Men reading this can see how much fun going out and socializing tonight could be for them, and women reading this can learn what to watch out for.
Things to note:
1) A lot of these videos take place either during the day time, or outside of clubs at night. If you’ve spent any time around drunk people you can tell that a lot of the girls in the outside-at-night scenes aren’t drunk or at most have a couple drinks in them. They’re not the falling over hammered grinding-the-stripper-pole 18yo slutty whores that most people picture is all PUAs go for (in fact we don’t LIKE really drunk girls, they don’t get any of our verbal wit, wordplay, or innuendo, it’s annoying lol).
2) Most of the PUAs aren’t drinking or drunk, in fact Tyler from RSD promotes an extremely healthy lifestyle (no drinking, drugs, eating healthy foods, taking healthy supplements, working out regularly, etc.). These aren’t sloppy falling-over slurring drunk frat boys…so the contrast between these really confident sober interesting guys gives them a big foothold up over the generic “player” at the bar that people picture in their heads.
3) There are definitely akward situations and blow-outs, but with that whole “baby learning to walk analogy” once you see it in action you’ll see that they’re not emotionally crippling girls for life. They’re occasionally making uncalibrated comments (sometimes on purpose lol) and at worst causing an akward interaction…they’re not running around knocking girls out and raping them to learn not to do that lol
4) Some of the guys are good looking, some of them aren’t…but what you’ll notice is that ALL of them attempt to have some sort of style. They take what they were dealt and work with it. Tyler isn’t a hot guy, but he dresses well for his body type and generally looks done up and like he’s socially competant. Cajun is a scruffy mofo, but he embraces it and plays it up. Soul could look pretty awful on a Sunday morning if he didn’t take care of himself, but he wears stylish coats, etc. Even Jeffy, he walks around with a trailer-park mullet and stuff, but he embraces it and makes it a part of his “look”. Contrast this to the Silicon Valley nerd guy in badly-fitting khakis with his Blackberry attached to his waist and ugly out-dated glasses from college and a plain boring polo shirt that doesn’t fit nice. You can get around looks, PUAs purposely go out looking like shit sometimes just to re-enforce that to themselves, but generally pickup promotes “do the best with what you’ve got, but don’t stress it if you don’t have the Tall Dark & Handsome thing because it really won’t make a difference”
Enjoy.
—–
First off, here’s how a lot of PUAs are created. This guy was around before The Game was published. Watch this from start to end and you’ll get a better idea of why guys study pickup and leave the whole Blue Pill lifestyle behind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDcNjhYJLwg
Here’s Cajun from Lovesystems. He went on a Canadian TV show called Keys to the VIP where guys in clubs try to get phone numbers and stuff from girls. He was just going to support his cousin who’s on the show but the guy his cousin was up against came off too creepy on camera so they asked Cajun to give it a go. He’s representing a pickup company on national TV so he has massive pressure on him in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBErW5NFUI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCyZdBjTwbM
Here’s Tyler from RSD. He’s like a 5’8″ balding pale ginger with a high-pitch voice and occasionally a ridiculous beard. He doesn’t drink or do drugs or anything and he’s like 32 I believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEFgvbNBTbk – (first 2 min is in-field footage, the rest is his course sales pitch so you can stop watching at 2 min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8k430ufLA – (there’s in-field footage spliced into various parts of this video. At 7:00 a HEB-M tries to take his girl from him, how come she doesn’t ditch short balding pale Tyler for the 6’4″ super-jock Bastiat? I don’t understand it, he’s taller and better looking, she should push Tyler down and run off with the guy!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuKRboBBtak – (skip to like 3:30 for in-field stuff, the first 3.5 min is just him blabbing)
Here are the Simple Pickup guys. They’re relatively new to the scene but gained massive momentum online when their videos went viral. These guys know what they’re doing but they like to just fuck around so a lot of their videos are of them doing ridiculous shit…their point in it is that a lot of the stuff guys worry about (looking right, saying the right thing, etc.) doesn’t really matter. They also mostly do day game, so it’s sober city, and in fact they hit up college campuses (the very girls this blog is targeted at, right?)
Also they’re a white guy, asian guy, and brown guy. For anyone who said asian guys would have trouble blah blah blah, the Asian guy is probably the best one out of these 3. Also they like to make things really akward for people and purposely get shot down a lot for the fun of it, prepare to squirm a lot lol:
NOTE: The Asian guy in these videos is Kong, the AFC from the Yellow Fever videos linked below, except a few years later after he’s learned actual game. Compare his vibe now compared to that Yellow Fever Part 1 video. Is he now a lying deceitful horrible monster? No, he’s just learned how to approach and attract girls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO_A7M0pesg – (this one is to show they actually have game lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0zzXAXulg – (the rest of these they’re pretty much just fucking around for fun, they get shot down a TON but they’re just messing around)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_4EUvnURs – (security comes after Kong at the end because his buddies told them he was a sexual predator preying on underage girls lol, note the To Catch A Predator joke…is THAT the response ANYONE would recommend in that situation? But after that the guards love him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAGiQ3AWKqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muT-9YPDZsI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Ixzp94ksw – (they like to just fuck around and mess with social pressure and social norms to show how you can say/do a lot of things Keyboard Jockey theory would tell you you can’t do)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OhW83s3S6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lmy46uTQ
Here’s a classic Mystery montage, don’t know if he slept with the girls in solo pics of themselves, but there’s plenty of video/pics of him in bed with girls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1loAxTH_Jw
Here’s Soul from Lovesystems, he does primarily daygame and he’s a brown dude hitting on white chicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njDfgsTqUFE
Here’s Julien from RSD…uhhh, he’s a bit more of an asshole that Tyler lol Don’t let his height/looks blind you to the alpha attributes he displays, plenty of good looking tall guys don’t get laid, watch his dominance, vocal tonality, kino/touch, escalation, sexual conversation, etc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWrFgIR6CU
Here’s Jeffy from RSD, he’s like 5’7″ and has a mullet, dirty t-shirts, etc. Basically looks like a complete sleaze. He had a reputation for hooking up with ugly chicks lol but hey, to each his own. Also his buddies and him bang college girls in what’s affectionately called “The Rape Van” (yes, he tells girls that’s what it’s called). It looks like this:
http://www.lolbrary.com/lolpics/312/pedobear-van-3312.jpg
Girls willingly get into it, and have sex in it. Anyway, here’s some in-field footage of him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hov3HfyNhn4
Yellow Fever Part 1 – This is an Asian AFC approaching girls. He’s really new to game in this, this is the type of PUA a lot of girls run into. Warning: This is long and kind of boring lol, skip around to where the Asian guy is approaching and suck in the akwardness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOeAfnv045s
Yellow Fever Part 2 – This is an Asian PUA approaching girls. 4:05 is the best approach. Note this guy’s confidence, body language, tone of voice, how he’s not afraid to hold his frame and not afraid of akward silence, etc. etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj5D2i2O9D0
Here’s Alexander from RSD. He’s a young’un and this is basically just a big montage of his year travelling and teaching pickup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUpazytmt1M
Happy Friday everyone! Now go out and talk to some new people this weekend.
Susan, you should really place this one in your “best posts’ tab.
I would totally ask a woman who acted toward me that way to be my girlfriend!
@Yrpua
You know it’s the links that get you thrown into spam. I’ve retrieved everything, and saved the extra copies. I think this should work. Sorry for the mixup before – not sure what happened there.
“That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.”
So basically I should stop dating other guys before he has given signals that he has stopped seeing other girls? As you say, guys want sexual variety, and given a guy has options, he is not going to say no to other girls if he is not exclusive to one. I’m interpreting this as there being a phase where you do not know if he adds hot girls on facebook, makes a move on girls on nights out and yet you should still show total dedication?
Susan, didn’t you once write that unless you have agreed to be exclusive, you are a free agent, and should date around?
@ms sassy:
Timing is everything darling; i see there is much yet to learn, you still have.
@ms royale:
You know what, just as i was finishing up my comment it occured to me just what you wrote-a combo of factors that, if they arent the cause of this whole notion of past boyfriends hectoring their exes, then surely facilitates it: college and social media. Now what im about to say is purely personal/anecdotal and in no way represents anyone but myself; but i think i understand why things have gone this way.
My exposure to both college life and social media is quite limited; and in both the common thread is the idea of “lifelong friendships” and the like. For example, i havent seen anyone from my highschool days, havent attended any reunions and havent missed any of it. Wrt social media, while have a twitter and facebook accounts, i only use them to alert my followers as to my blog updates and the like. Ive found that college guys-again this is just my personal view here nothing scientific-seem to have a differing manner of interacting with women in general than guys who come from a background more like my own. For example like i said, the very thought of reaching out to an ex-let alone requesting her to cook for me-after a breakup or otherwise, is just alien to me. Moreover, i have heard quite a few stories of women who, like yourself, never seem to lack any number of guys who want to in some way discuss either their previous life with you and or discuss some facet of their relationship life with their current so’s. The whole thing just repulses me for some reason i have yet to be able to fully articulate.
O.
@FeralEmployee
The woman ‘having a life’ would easily remove feelings of ‘clinging’
@ Obsidian
Timing is everything, in that situation?
So I’m just supposed to psychically know when my boyfriend will have a bad day at work, and avoid surprising him with one of his favorite foods?
Mmmhmm.
@ A Definite Beta Guy
Why thank you sir! I appreciate the compliment.
@ Marie
Sort of. You’re overthinking it. What you should do is only date one guy at a time anyway, and preferably date decent guys who don’t see more than one woman at once (a rule I’ve stuck to even as I’ve started to have success in the hookup scene). Make it clear to the guy at some point that you want to be exclusive, with him, and never flirt with other guys in the time leading up to that.
If he is seeing other girls, it’s your choice whether or not to keep seeing him, but the only guys who will commit 100% before you are so beta you won’t want them anyway.
@Royale
What’s really strange is that girls like that can do pretty well. My brother dated a girl like that for a while. The guy doesn’t have to do anything – she takes control of everything. Lame!
Nice links, yrpua. Another Asian PUA who’s quite influential is JT Tran, an aerospace engineer for Boeing before he quit and started doing/teaching pick up. He’s a former student of Mystery, I think. He even got invited to Harvard and Yale to do seminars for the Asian students there lol.
Re: cooking.
The last huge unrequited crush I had started over fresh cupcakes. Since then, I’ve learned to cook, and used it to get chicks with some success. Have to say that cooking with a girl is even better than being cooked for, but maybe that’s just me (and certainly it doesn’t diminish being cooked for).
Re: making it clear you want him.
This is the sexiest thing a girl can do. Assuming no major flaws (she’s not fat, obnoxious, or slutty), making it clear you want his nuts is the best way to attract a guy. Making it clear you wants his nuts, and only his nuts, will seal the deal for anyone who isn’t a committed player. Even if you haven’t put out yet, make it clear that you’re just following a personal rule, and make it plausible that you’ve never broken that rule before.
I’ve been seeing a girl lately who failed at the latter part – she definitely wants my nuts, and seems to want them exclusively, but let slip that the “make him wait” rule is a new thing for her, and I’m the lucky first guy to experience that rule. So, in return, I’ve made it clear this is not a serious thing for me. Price to be paid for everything.
Re: girls blinking first.
This article covers the tactics, but not the strategy. Girls won’t “blink” for a guy they aren’t crazy about, meaning all the femininity in the world isn’t going to cut it unless the hypergamy problem is addressed – either girls en masse start lusting after the beta masses, or society at large stops training guys to be betas. Not sure which is less likely; even on an individual level, reprogramming one’s attraction triggers is a daunting task. How can a girl show genuine, 100% interest in worshipping a guy’s cock if she isn’t tingling?
So, strategic solution that girls can do here and now: bring out his alpha. See a guy with good qualities? A nice, decent beta? Draw him out. Hit on him (flip the script, even though the article says it’s against the natural order), and respond positively to his efforts, lead the conversation in a riskier direction and reward him for trying. You’d be surprised how much boldness you can draw out of a regular guy in just a few minutes of speaking with him (if you don’t believe me, put a few beers in a guy and buy him two lap dances; observe how he behaves around the stripper, in that near-perfect risk-free environment).
Even if it doesn’t work out in the long run for the two of you, you’ll be doing him a favor when he meets the next chick. Eventually that sort of karma should pay off.
@Marie
Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Dating is shopping. You should date around until you see something you want to buy, i.e. invest in. Once you are interested in one particular guy, you should start the process of bonding emotionally with him. Keeping in mind, of course, that you are still getting to know him – you should be prepared to abort the mission if you find out something that changes your feelings for him.
In the early days, while you are trying to get things going with one guy, he may take it slower than you would like. He may need more time or be ambivalent. That’s fine – you are not having sex, so you may continue to date other people. In fact, I would encourage it. You can still make it clear you like him, but that until you’re off the market – you’re on the market.
And I’m not surprised about the Asian guy you posted being the most successful. That was also my experience with having an Asian guy as a wingman. Many times it felt like shooting fish in a barrel with him. There’s a really huge opportunity for Asian guys out there if they would just let loose and assert their masculinity.
@Sassy
“Why thank you sir! I appreciate the compliment.”
You are quite welcome. This next bit is running against anti-supplication instincts built into my head, but whatever:
It honestly feels good to even give that compliment. It is extremely rare for me to find a woman I can say is “good.” And it makes a guy feel good to realize there ARE women who live up to their standards.
Which is why I think a lot of guys like being here. Big selection of that at HUS.
@ms sassy:
Welcome to guy world my dear (laughs diabolically)…
Although i will give you an “a” for efffort. I must admit the apron was a nice touch.
Keep at it; youre coming along…ever so slowly…
O.
@Odds
I wrote this post geared to drawing the beta guy out via emotional escalation. I think it’s a lot to ask a woman to handle both the emotional and sexual escalation. It also makes the woman dominant in the exchange – to a degree that I think will hamper attraction, on both sides.
I’m all for women stepping up and doing their share, but guys are going to have to meet them halfway. I’ll train the women to escalate emotionally, and leave it to the Game bloggers to deal with the sexual escalation piece.
Once again ms walsh drops another ether bomb! Excellent piece.
Speaking of the game bloggers, the following tidbit should help the ladies…
Its a concept known in game circles as proximity alert system (pas); its when a woman will subconsciously put herself near a guy shes interested in seemingly innocously, so he can “open” her. Its a very powerful principle, although for it to work the guy has to be aware-either naturally game-sensitive, or game-acquired.
So, lets go back to my example of the raphael siddiq concert out in nyc’s central park; now the ladies definitely were there looking to meet guys, but in my view were going about it all wrong. Instead of merely hanging amongst themselves, they should have dispersed and put themselves innocuously closeby the guys they wanted them to approach. Then they can do all the flirty eye contct stuff etc. Of course this assumes that again, dude is game-aware, and, that he is who said sista wants to begin with.
But yea, pas is an important principle. The male must initiate the actual physical part; but you can help him along by presenting yourself to him.
Good lookin out ms walsh! As per usual, great job.
O.
Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest.
Projection.
The only reason I can imagine that women would think that tactic would work on a man is that it works so well on a woman.
—————————————————————–
Ain’ that the truth!
Susan
You have my permission to aggressively ignore all of your your haters on the interwebs, I think you get things pretty dam well. But you might consider putting out some vids on youtube like GirlWritesWhat. It is an inherently stronger medium.
Good post, everything in it has been my experience in the mingle, down to the small details of cooking being the best way to a heart, and intensely sexualized pre-sexual relationships. This is the female version of Game, and it’s almost the direct opposite of male Game.
I’ll add that girl Game has made “pile switch” possible for me. I chased a woman, too flirty for a girlfriend I thought, who withheld (full) sex long enough and took the emotional leap enough times that I eventually switched gears. I’ve also had long-term girlfriends regress to short-term after flaking out, giving reason for doubting their interest and loyalty.
@Tom.s, 64
Not too sure about that.
Don’t think most men want a clinger, which is the impression I get from reading the list.
Is funny given that this list was given by women that are married to the guys that they did this for.
This behaviors are also a good filter a man that is not looking for commitment would surely bolt out but a man that is open to it and/or a man that has been neglected and ignored by women for a long time, will get attracted and want more. Full of winning for all involved.
Obsidian said:
“Its a concept known in game circles as proximity alert system (pas); its when a woman will subconsciously put herself near a guy shes interested in seemingly innocously, so he can “open” her. ”
______________________________
Steel on target.
Gents reading this –
What Obsidian said is often the only thing a girl will do to open the door for you. Maybe a couple glances, a hair touch, and sit ten feet away for awhile….
Not exactly a battery of Kleig lights accompanied by Wagnerian opera piped through megaphones, is it?
If you don’t have good situational awareness you’ll miss it. It seems to me that women will often turn their backs to you if they’re interested. Counter-intuitive, and your mileage may vary on this point – but after some experimentation I now think of the turned back as a “clear to engage” signal.
So basically I should stop dating other guys before he has given signals that he has stopped seeing other girls? As you say, guys want sexual variety, and given a guy has options, he is not going to say no to other girls if he is not exclusive to one. I’m interpreting this as there being a phase where you do not know if he adds hot girls on facebook, makes a move on girls on nights out and yet you should still show total dedication?
Yes, precisely. That’s the female risk. He took the male risk of demonstrating interest and risking rejection. Now you have to take the female risk of demonstrating commitment and risking rejection. The thing is, if you do it properly, you won’t ever even have to ask for the commitment. My wife and I got engaged and married without ever discussing if we were boyfriend and girlfriend or agreeing not to see other people. We never had any sort of talk. She demonstrated commitment and made it very clear that she had no interest in anyone else without ever demanding anything from me. A woman who goes all in like that significantly increases her perceived loyalty rating, which is much more important to men than women.
In contrast, I once dropped contact with a girl for nothing more than taking a phone call from another guy after midnight. I knew him, and knew he wasn’t anything more than a beta orbiter, but the fact that other guys felt comfortable calling her that late caused me to lose interest in her vis-a-vis the other available options. I wasn’t upset, it didn’t bother me, and I didn’t even say anything about it. I didn’t really even think about it, I just called someone else the next day and never got around to returning her calls.
If you’re no more loyal than the next girl, then you had better be more beautiful, better in bed, and newer than the other options. The problem is, even if you are incredibly beautiful and la tigresse in the boudoir, there will ALWAYS be someone newer. And the more attractive a man is, the more options he always has waiting for him.
@Odds
Cooking together is awesome and it makes a great stay-at-home date. Intimate, reasonably priced and just a short commute to bed
I’m bolding that – I think this is a revelation for women. Most of us don’t get it – I know I didn’t when I was young.
@Rum
Thanks for the suggestion – I have been thinking about expanding to video and possibly podcasting, doing interviews or a “talk show” format. I have never watched her videos – but her name keeps coming up, it sounds like I should check her out.
I’ve been thinking about this comment by Feral since last night. It seems to me that the whole concept of “Stage 5 clinger” applies only to players. These are the guys who recoil at virgins and say, “you get attached when you bleed.” They don’t want attachment, that’s the real issue. The phrase itself implies a psycho sort of neediness, and indeed I’ve seen guys call girls psycho and clingy for daring to ask for clarification after a hookup. (Of course, the girls should have asked for clarification before the hookup.)
The suggestions in the post are meant to promote attachment, not dependency.
Michael,
Average women are rejecting you because they know they won’t be able to keep you once you figure out your true status. You’re meant to be with that very, very attractive woman but you’ve got a lot of painful work ahead of you catching up on the social skills. The only way to get there is trial and lots of error. Get on it with some urgency.
Susan,
This is your best post yet. Pls do everything you can to get this linked – maybe comment in that CNN article?
The general principle here (and it applies for men in the other direction) is that mirroring/the golden rule doesn’t work in mating because of basic gender differences in attraction.
Academic success being necessarily inversely proportional to social skill development, and professional status having become increasingly predicated on academic success, ignorance of this principle is likely crucial to the lack of assortive mating at the top of the SMP that has thrown the whole thing out of whack.
Yareally, thanks for posting those; I had a chance to look at a few of them. The guys seem colorful, chatty, huggy, etc.; I think we all know someone like this and can imagine inviting him to a cocktail party in order to increase the biodiversity of the social ecosystem and perhaps provide a spectacle.
I thought Durden in particular seemed rather likable in a D&D player sort of way (I was into role-playing games as a kid and think that they can sometimes provide a useful framework for thinking about the world, so that’s not meant to be an insult) and genuinely interested in sharing knowledge and experience.
It appears that the general marketing strategy used by these guys is/was to adopt nicknames, show up on discussion boards and post impressive (self-reported?) narratives about sexual conquests, build an audience, and then announce the launching of a blog or website that will be dedicated to pick-up training and the sale of branded pick-up-related products. Is “discussion forum presence—personal site—pick up training services” the general sequence?
One of the links ultimately took me to a site by a PUA who calls himself “Good Looking Loser.” In between essays regarding seduction techniques, performance-enhancing drugs, and some kind of penis enlargement device, Good Looking Loser has a lengthy write-up of his own experiences with the seminar circuit, boot camps, and so on. I thought it was a fairly balanced commentary despite the rather negative title, but it also appeared like GLL was positioning himself as an anti-PUA PUA from a marketing angle and, in an increasingly crowded market like this one, the best way to make a quick name may be to attack some of the existing “gurus” (I also realize that some of the existing guys will have messy divorces and then try to expose each other as seduction frauds, predatory homosexuals, etc.).
Anyway, here’s the article in question:
http://www.goodlookingloser.com/2012/04/09/pua-scam/
Is this objective reporting or a man with an axe to grind…?
Not total dedication, just focus. Remember you shouldn’t have let the physical relationship get much beyond an enthusiastic kiss goodnight yet.
You’re indicating that you want him to invest emotionally. If he doesn’t follow up he’s not a keeper.
Remember Susan’s prime directive: “No sex without exclusivity.”
But since, alas! frail Beauty must decay,
Curl’d or uncurl’d, since Locks will turn to grey;
Since painted, or not painted, all shall fade,
And she who scorns a Man, must die a Maid,
What then remains but well our Pow’r to use,
And keep good Humour still whate’er we lose?
And trust me, dear! good Humour can prevail,
When Airs, and Flights, and Screams, and Scolding fail.
Beauties in vain their pretty Eyes may roll;
Charms strike the Sight, but Merit wins the Soul.
@ Obsidian
Why did you have to add the phrase in bold to this post? I was fine with everything else you said, but the phrase in bold is a pot shot.
Implying that I’m slow at learning something, especially something I can’t control whatsoever and that isn’t my fault, is wrong and uncalled for.
Look, I understand that the last thread became pretty intense between us. Since it’s over now, I’m willing to move on from it if you are.
I didn’t criticize you in this thread, but you felt the need to drag your attitude from the other thread to this thread.
Taking cheap shots at me, even though I have stopped taking unprovoked shots at you, isn’t cool man.
Can’t we just agree to let bygones be bygones and call it a day? I mean that sincerely.
@michael #36:
I think mikes (hope he wont mind my referring to him as “mike”) comment is a powerful fodder for a post all on its own and in some sense it has been covered in the previous post on dominance; but still it raises all kinds of ticklish questions for the current topic especially given the question of again, the centrality of female choice in human mating.
Mike is 100% in his observations and assessment-alpha males rarely have to approach women, or failing that, do comparitively little “chasing” as much as lesser males *have to do*. This is fully consistent with what ms walsh herself has said above: some *90% of men will be rejected by women for consideration of mating prospects*. By definition, alpha males comprise a very small cohort; and again as mike has astutely pointed out, they have little problem attracting willing sexual partners, from accross the female physical attractiveness spectrum.
But this rubs up against the very premise of ms walshs topic-the notion that women should signal a degree of interest, but leave the admittedly heavy lifting of “physical escalation” to the male-which ms walsh promulgates, is “the male role”. Clearly, what mike is saying and what ms walsh is saying are two completely different things.
Whats going on here?
Well, here again we see the complexities of female mating choice rear its pretty head-IF a male is “alpha” enough, WOMEN CAN AND WILL APPROACH HIM AND WILL ESCALATE SEXUALLY. And failing that, at the very least, they will be far and away more receptive to an alpha males advances-even if it wasnt at the most opportune time that the woman preferred-and we have evidence of this per buss “evolutionary psychology, 3rd ed.”.
Simply put, if youre alpha male, you wont have to work that hard to get sexual/mating opportunities. No doubt about it.
So, mikes question then, in the context of this discussion, is indeed interesting: what, ultimately, are we saying here?
One thing seems all but certain: for the vast majority of men, they can be certain they will NOT be approached by a woman for mating opportunities. They have to do *something* in order for something to happen.
Fascinating comment, mike! I for one thank you for posting it.
O.
I am currently depressed. Not in the best place.
Just before this dark cloud took hold I started talking to a guy (former student at my old uni). We went on a few dates. Then I stood him up for a day time date because I was very down. I told him I was down and that evening he actually came to my house. We kissed that night. I expressed my concern with my current state of depression and he didn’t seem that fazed – thing is I’ve been hermiting, not socialising and full of self loathing. How am I attractive>?
We’ve since slept together but it was too soon (!) and it was awkward. I’ve now stopped seeing him as I am concerned at his attraction/true intentions – right now I’m a bit of a mess – any healthy relationship can’t develop right now. Thoughts?
Sue: “I think it’s a lot to ask a woman to handle both the emotional and sexual escalation. It also makes the woman dominant in the exchange – to a degree that I think will hamper attraction, on both sides. I’m all for women stepping up and doing their share, but guys are going to have to meet them halfway. I’ll train the women to escalate emotionally, and leave it to the Game bloggers to deal with the sexual escalation piece.”
Yes!! I’m on board with this, 100%, especially the first part.
Men must learn to escalate sexually, and women do not need to save the soul of a too-timid beta. If she is feeling particularly generous, she can make one bold move (go in for the kiss, a good long one, and when breaking say “I want more”), but only once. If he doesn’t take the hint after that, he is not ready.
All the emotional and sexual escalation can’t be in one person’s hands, and it can’t be reversed for the vast majority of people.
@ms sassy:
If i may, you should have bolded my opening statement:
“welcome to guy land!”
Because as i read the background of your cookery situation, it reminded me of the umpteen million times men across history have run afoul of a womans emotional vissicitudes; i just thought is was a very interesting role reversal of sorts. I still do.
Being a mindreader is no joke-its also deeply unfair. Nobody should have to try to intuit, 24/7, someone elses attitudes feelings and moods.
But learning social interaction, reading cues and the like, is vital for success in all forms of human interaction-and in order to gain proficiency it takes lots of practice, which does indeed take time.
Hence my parting shot. Welcome to the club sis.
So, no, i dont think your slow or stupid, which was what you called me btw; i dont take it personal because for one thing, such is a womans way when she gets heated, so i just take it all in stride. Besides, our little dustup was nothing to the full-on breakouts you regularly have here w/the likes of jesus mahoney-right?
No harm no foul. Was just noting the commonality of experiences.
A final word to my brothers:
Fellas, what goes on at the job, stays on the job. If you feeling some kind of way about it, get it out of your system before you get home. Your woman aint your therapist. Thats why we had what used to be called taprooms-so you could go, have a round with the homies and drown your troubles before heading to the shop.
O.
Ps: fwiw, if my woman did what you did ms sassy, i would have forgotten about whatever went down at the job pronto; all the better if she was wearing only the apron. Im just sayin.
I’ve now stopped seeing him as I am concerned at his attraction/true intentions – right now I’m a bit of a mess – any healthy relationship can’t develop right now. Thoughts?
I’m sorry to hear about your state my advice is that you cannot have a healthy relationship till you are healthy yourself. Seek professional help ASAP, that should be your priority right now, IMO.
@ Obsidian
That is true.
Thank you Obsidian. I really do appreciate that.
I’ve been thinking about this comment by Feral since last night. It seems to me that the whole concept of “Stage 5 clinger” applies only to players.
Yeah beta men don’t get clingers, as mentioned before when talking to my hubby and some of his friends they have “tech support shields” a woman that shows real interest is an oasis when you are used to deal with women faking interest to gain something and then start flaking or they give you the LJBF talk, thus the guys with the “clinger shields” more often than not are player or at least have a game thigh enough that they really don’t want any woman to do anything worth it of commitment till they decide themselves they want to commit to someone. Hence their dislike of this behaviours, again great filter in the repertoire. Problem is some women develop a “I want THAT guy to commit” instead of “I want the RIGHT one to commit” another important lesson on dating hell to learn from women.
Men are not like trying to get a a new dress in which you fall in love with a particular one and do whatever it takes, get the money, lose or gain weight…. to fit in it: Dress conquered! They are more like applying to colleges you try to find and select the ones you like but in the end only the ones that are a good match for you and them let you in, they also have a choice on this and you must never forget that, YMMV.
I have said it before and I will keep saying it: Our experiences are not analogous.
I love this post. I wish more women got the whole idea that a) that a woman has to do the escalation because a guy has figured out what level you are to him, and it’s up to you to either prove him right or wrong and b) it’s this escalation that shows whether or not you’re the right fit for a person. A woman who thinks it’s a guy’s job to do all of the work is just going to be unhappy and frustrated. On the flip side, sometimes what you have to offer a dude isn’t what he’s looking for. It doesn’t make him a bad person per se as much as he’s just bad for you. Men seem to be able, moreso than women, to distinguish better between someone being bad for them as opposed to just plain bad. I’m not quite sure why that is.
@RWC
Can I say peach cheesecake sounds slamming? Seriously though, I’m not sure I’d go there with someone I’d had a relationship with. I’d ask what’s going on in your life now, but going back there seems a touch painful for me.
@Obsidian
I see you like to go hard in the paint when it comes to women. Not just this post, but others on HUS as well. Did you always have that mindset? Did it develop? I’m intrigued by it.
Thanks for quoting me in this post, Susan!
Emotional escalation will work to filter in relationship-oriented men, but not so well with men who don’t want or look for relationships. Therefore, you will definitely hear from guys who have no intention of LTRs on your blog who say the advice is bad.
Anacaona:
“Problem is some women develop a “I want THAT guy to commit” instead of “I want the RIGHT one to commit” another important lesson on dating hell to learn from women.
Men are not like trying to get a a new dress in which you fall in love with a particular one and do whatever it takes, get the money, lose or gain weight…. to fit in it: Dress conquered! They are more like applying to colleges you try to find and select the ones you like but in the end only the ones that are a good match for you and them let you in, they also have a choice on this and you must never forget that”
————
This was the problem back in the post about Brady and Grace, where the guys kept dwelling on “but, he’s not a cad!” and I stated that it’s only ONE part of the equation. Another part has to be “is he into ME?”
@Desiderius
It’s been a while since we had some lovely poetry, thank you!
Re Michael’s comment and Obisidian’s reply:
Michael commits the exception fallacy. He refers to having seen women drag alphas to bar bathrooms for sex. The percentage of women in the general population who will do that in their lifetimes is infinitesimal.
The truth is, most women do not play the sexual aggressor. Only 20% max. of women pursue a short-term mating strategy, i.e. casual sex, at any one time.
It’s very likely that the woman who saw Mike on the platform was attempting to send strong IOIs by staring at him intently and repeatedly. His response was to look away, something she absolutely would have interpreted as rejection. Hence her getting on a different train – by then she felt humiliated.
Obsidian is right – very few men will be approached. And very few women approach. The promiscuous 20% does their own thing.
No, this is not what I said. I said that even the men with the most sexual success in the market will be rejected on 90% of their approaches.
@Todd
“Can I say peach cheesecake sounds slamming? Seriously though, I’m not sure I’d go there with someone I’d had a relationship with. I’d ask what’s going on in your life now, but going back there seems a touch painful for me.”
It looks like I unintentionally opened a can of worms by articulating the context of the examples I gave. The context was my way of explaining in advance why I am not with those guys today. My intent was to illustrate the point about the food thing (a perfect set-up isn’t always the ingredient to real impact). You and O make vald points about the unhealthiness of returning to past loves, which I think warrants its own discussion.
@NK
If you are not in a good place psychologically right now, you should focus on that and tend to your own needs. Once you get your depression treated and alleviated, you can approach dating again with a fresh perspective. Dating can add a lot of emotional turmoil to one’s life, and you don’t need that right now.
You’re also particularly vulnerable. It may be that he was genuinely concerned and willing to come over to lend support and keep you company. I hate to think he would do something as predatory as hit on a depressed woman for sex. In any case, I agree with your decision to stop seeing him. It would be better for you, and for any potential partner, if you felt good and healthy.
@Anacaona
Very true. And since they invariably focus on the guys with the most options, they probably do deserve the nickname. One thing that I’ve seen a few times has really surprised me – a young woman is guilty of truly psycho behavior, but the guy rewards her for it. One example that comes to mind is a girl learning that her ex-bf was seeing someone new. She called him 60 times in one evening, lay in wait outside his apartment, yelled at him publicly repeatedly – until he took her back. And he did – he dumped the new girl and went back to the ex. IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?
@Todd
We’re more romantic in an unrealistic way, more inclined to play savior, and have bigger, fatter hamsters. Also, I think guys have a lot more practice with rejection. You’re better able to drive on without analyzing every rejection to death, which is what we do.
@Susan
Perhaps it’s a fear of ending up alone?
I can only imagine that some guys (uh, some people, actually) are so afraid of ending up with no one that they won’t take any chances. As psycho as that ex seemed, at that moment she was his “sure thing.”
@Hope
That is useful in itself. If the caring and nurturing behaviors are not generating an equal emotional response, that guy is a dead end. I’m often amazed at how long women can go with zero positive reinforcement. It’s as if they just can’t let go of the challenge. They’d be better off finding challenge in a game and keeping real life sane.
@Joe
That must be it. Like I said, in some extreme way, she was actually following the advice in this post! She went all in and refused to give up. I imagine that could be very reaffirming for a guy.
Fantastic review, if I do say so, of Crabb’s “Men, Women; Enjoying the Difference” on Amazon. He’s a conservative Christian counselor, so his work will make your teeth hurt. However, he’s a good writer, so contradicting him will take some intellectual exercise.
One of his big things is how a woman, through trust and appreciation, can make her man bigger–a good deal of detail here–almost as if it’s magical, although of course it isn’t. Better with the family,more leadership, better in bed, better as a citizen, more competent, etc.
She can, on the other hand, make him into a feckless, sullen punk sitting on the sofa, shrugging and doing nasty things in private.
This issue is discussed glancingly by other practitioners, but in great detail in his book.
Sort of like bringing out–or ruining–his alpha.
Up to her.
Worth, imo, reading the book.
@Susan
“It’s been a while since we had some lovely poetry, thank you!”
You crazy Catholics could always turn a phrase.
@Richard Aubrey
Thanks for that title – I’ve requested it.
@NK
If you are depressed, do not get involved with the opposite sex. It will most likely fuck you up hardcore. Full disclosure: I’ve read that casual sex encounters will actually improve the moods of the depressed, but I don’t put enough stock into that to change my advice.
Speaking as a guy who was depressed for a lonnnngggg time:
Get professional help. All the guys will still be there later.
@ms walsh:
I feel a bit of deja vu here lol. Yes its true even top level masters of game get shotdown a lot-but the point is made-as a guy you can expect to get shotdown a heck of a lot more than you will score. What it all boils down to is, for a guy, getting some, be that stand alone or as a prelude to something longterm, is a longshot. So for me wht we’re talking about is a distinction w/o much of a difference: either way if youre a guy, odds are you’re empty handed. Just the nature of the beast.
That leads me to my next point: women dont just approach alphas for short term sex; they can approach them for ltrs too. I know that doesnt comport with your overall message but ive seen it happen more than many will admit and im sure im not alone. Simply put being an alpha male gives one increased chances at mating, be that short or longterm. Even buss says as much in his “evolutionary psychology, 3rd ed.” on page 360 where he talks about the advantages of status striving for men. There are other examples.
O.
@Susan Walsh
Exactly! I wonder if women like that secretly want to live in a romantic comedy or a romance novel. Do you realize how insane that would be in real life? Heck, don’t they realize how creepy that would be long-term?
But you are right. Very few women are just told straight no often enough. Most breakups are because of the woman or just mutual. Even when a guy wants to leave, he’ll either just drift away or do something that’ll make a girl want to leave.
Susan,
While I admit I am probably the exception, I do get women who regularly pursue me; and I’m (somewhat) often approached by women.
I’m a fit, above average looking man in my early 30s with no overt overcompensation (ie. I don’t think I’m Vin Diesel) with a positive attitude and a good sense of humour. While it is rarely high SMV women who approach, and they are never overtly sexual, about once a week a woman will try to “chat me up” (to use british slang), and about once every 4 to 6 weeks I will get asked out by a woman.
This used to happen when I was younger too, but at the time I was naive enough to believe that a woman randomly decided to run on the treadmill beside me (or randomly choose the seat next to me) and start talking to a guy she never met before.
I would say that women are far more subtle about it, and there is always a level of plausible deniability of their approach, but they’re willing to approach men and “open” the conversation.
@Obsidian
I agree with you. Buss says that women engage in short-term mating specifically to test out sexual compatibility with long-term prospects. Obviously, they face the risk of being relegated to the short-term pile by the male, but that doesn’t stop women from trying.
Buss also says that there are two conditions that women reject even for short-term mating, precisely because they are thinking long-term in most cases:
1. The male is in a committed relationship.
2. A history of male promiscuity.
Now, we both know that especially on the second point, men will cry to the heavens that women adore a guy who’s been in many women, but that is not what the evo psychs say about the matter, and my own observations confirm theirs. The exception being promiscuous women, who employ a different relative metric.
@Peppermint Panda
Thanks for sharing your experience. If I may, I’m curious how you feel about these approaches. The fact that you said they are rarely high SMV, while you clearly are, makes me think they are generally not successful in capturing your interest. I am also surprised that women of average looks would be so assertive – unless they’re promiscuous and accustomed to hitting on guys a couple of steps up for the short-term validation. Do you have a sense of that? Do they seem to be looking for a husband or a hookup?
Susan,
The more attention I pay to relationship dynamics in my own life and the lives of others the more aware I am of women approaching men; and I think it happens far more often than most people would acknowledge.
If I were to put a term to a female approach I would call it “friend making” and usually the end goal would be to eliminate barriers and discomfort for the man to make a move. Over time I noticed that efforts made by me to flirt were always recrprocated, and women began flirting an unusual portion of the time, which made me certain that this is an interest based approach.
I’m also very confident that these women are looking for something long term; but that could be specific to me.
In general, I’m glad for the approach but I rarely pursue these women. I would imagine women have a similar experience, but within the first 5 minutes of talking most women will give you a reason why not to date them. Often it is personality clashes, but other times they talk about something that is a gigantic red-flag.
Purely anecdotal, but I believe women in the SMP have become far more aggressive (as an aggregate score; I’m sure there are many local/cultural variations) over the last 10 years or so. The interest cues are more blatant, a woman will ask the guy out by saying “so why don’t you ask me out?”, etc.
Yes, the man may ultimately have the responsibility to formally suggest the time and place of the occasion, but the conditions in which this is done are far more favorable to him. To use the potentially inflammatory metaphor of trigger weights on a rifle: the modern SMP seems to have a double set trigger: the first trigger, which has the greater weight, sets the action (and is managed or at least heavily subsidized by the woman); the second or “hair-trigger” has very low breaking weight and is used to actually fire the round (the man may still be responsible for this, but even that is debatable).
Once the hook-up mechanism actually begins, the results can be almost formulaic: girls will lead the physical escalation dance right up to the practical point of no return, then briefly express something to the effect that “they *never* do this on the 1st/2nd date” (cue affectionate, understanding response from the man to provide proper reassurances), and then will seamlessly continue with the alpha-huntress plan.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it just seems far more choreographed and strategic than it used to, as if women are feeling more confident and assertive in all areas of life and reluctant to concede a possible competitive edge to other females in any arena. It’s become “Who Dares, Wins” in sexual manifestation.
@Bastiat
“Not to put too fine a point on it, but it just seems far more choreographed and strategic than it used to, as if women are feeling more confident and assertive in all areas of life and reluctant to concede a possible competitive edge to other females in any arena. It’s become “Who Dares, Wins” in sexual manifestation.”
This looks like a woman’s attempt to manufacture desirability. It pushes things past just presenting lures (looking presentable, being socially engaging, etc.) and into coaxing the follow-through. I think these ladies operate from a mind set that there is no reason why the man of interest should not be attracted to her (entitlement).
Royale, I think you are absolutely right. The confidence level is very high and the feeling is that a man who presents scarce qualities X, Y, Z can be objectified in much the same way that a high GPA, corner office, corporate takeover target, or suite of Hermes bags should be pursued with an assertive, somewhat calculating and impatient, can-do attitude.
IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?
You are assuming he is not a little crazy himself IME crazy attracts crazy.
Exactly! I wonder if women like that secretly want to live in a romantic comedy or a romance novel.
Again this, I know everybody most be sick of my defense of romance novels and its fans but I really think this is growing to “porn turns men into pervert” levels of disinformation.
Women that do this to themselves have poor reading skills, 90% of the romance heroine’s fall into the trope through not making or will of their own. Using Pride and Prejudice, there is this moment when Mr Collins asked Lizzy hand in marriage and she says no and then he declares he won’t give up because many times women reject men they want to accept and do later on. Elizabeth tells him that she is not like that and then that is what happens with Mr Darcy she rejects him first and then accepts his hand in marriage later on. Many people think that Austen was deliberately being ironic. But I think she was explaining the trope a woman that rejects a man for a particular deal breaker if the man is clever and fixes it will get a second chance. If Mr Darcy would had done another marriage proposal without becoming more humble and gentleman like with her poor relatives and without showing his level of interest by defying his annoying aunt (and defacto mother in law Lady Catherine) and helping her stupid sister Lydia she would had said no again, probably even more irritated by the whole thing. Women that want to find their Mr Darcy are not understanding the trope at all, don’t blame the novels, blame the reader, YMMV.
@Anacaona, that was an amazing defense of Romance Novels ™. But seriously, do you really want to compare great literature like Jane Austen’s with the trash that’s out there in the book stores and supermarket shelves?
I admire your writing and what you’ve said here, but the analogy between (soft) porn for men and romance novels for women is just too strong in my mind. They serve the same purpose – self gratification. They’re essentially harmless in moderation, but they certainly don’t bring any credit to the reader.
I don’t think it’s necessary to beat anyone over the head (rhetorically speaking!) for reading the stuff, either porn for men or romance novels for women. But neither version can be defended like that.
But seriously, do you really want to compare great literature like Jane Austen’s with the trash that’s out there in the book stores and supermarket shelves?
I’m actually pretty democratic about this things. A trope is a trope some authors have a lot more to add than that to the work and some others just that.
They serve the same purpose – self gratification. They’re essentially harmless in moderation, but they certainly don’t bring any credit to the reader.
I really hate the idea that you read to get credit of show how smart or accomplished you are. I read because I love it even if I was the last women on Earth I will read. My personal rule is to read everything that I can pass the first page of. I don’t pick then randomly I usually read that the book is about in the contra cover but if after picking my interest it could be a Nobel, a Pulitzer or a trashy novel on the airport. If you got me on the first page you got yourself a reader, YMMV.
I also quite like porn BTW.
@Chris_in_CA
Agreed. It’s okay to say no – IF you’ve made it clear that you do find him desirable, and want to continue the escalation. Otherwise, well, you’re just stringing him along.
“If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.”
And how’s he supposed to know that’s actually true? Answer: He can’t. There’s no way he can be sure. So he’ll be cautious–and he has every right to be. Sorry, harsh truth.
He can see if her actions match her words – does she flirt openly and obviously with other men in front of him – just by example – if her actions smack of game playing or uncertainty then the words may not be the truth or the whole story.
@Mule Chewing Briars June 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to.
And it is equally baffling to men why entertaining another woman’s flirtations in front of your wife or girlfriend will make her want to rip your clothes off later that night.
The latter depends on the wife or the gf. A confident wife or gf would ignore it and not react and certainly not reward the man for behavior she does not appreciate.
@Michael
She clearly saw you were not interest. You clearly were sending not interested signals and since she is smart enough to know there are more fish in the sea. A not interested vibe makes a person with self respect go oh well no harm no foul on to the next. She knew there are other men who will or would find her attractive so there is no need to make a move on someone clearly not interested.
The flaw in your logic is that the women think the average man is the alpha. Also if she is dressed “feminine” she is not looking to be the aggressor or approach – she will send out signals and if someone responds she may opt to respond – she is seeking to draw him in not role reverse and chase. She is confident enough not to chase.
The fact that you thought your Dad’s “alphaness” would rub off on you put you in the one down position – your actions and lack of response to signals screamed a lack of self confidence. Compared and contrasted to your Dad that lack of confidence was even more apparent.
O said it best in the last paragraph of his post #75 – feminine women send signals it is up to the guy to respond in order for the signals to continue so he can move forward. No response means no interest and a feminine woman moves on.
Susan,
I love that post! I actually agree with everything. One of my goals this summer is to improve my cooking, just because I want to invite friends to fancier dinners at home.
I must admit if you had told me that 7 years ago, I would replied something snarky. I supposed I’m a late bloomer, I wasn’t interested in men, in pleasing them and feminity wasn’t seen as productive or ambitious so it went with the bath water. Now, that all these things are aligned, it is much harder to achieve finding a man that wants to commit. I went to a wedding today and it was wonderful seeing two people looking at each other and feeling safe. This is what I want.
Btw, Michael, you’re a loser, like the king of losers! You dad was basically playing unvoluntary wingman for you and you were still unable to grab that opportunity by the neck and get a chat going with that woman. You were probably right because technically your father was the one that displayed “alphaness” through mastery and probably assumed prestige so he should be the one bagging her; she probably looked at you as the younger option ( which I sometimes do, an awesome guy is very likely to know of, or be surrounded by other awesome guys, be them sons, brothers or friends). In short, you failed, and you felt entitled. If that girl had made a move it would have been toward your father. How I know that you’re definitely an omega, and an unpleasant one also? You adopted a very feminine attitude in that situation, not attractive at all for a woman who VISIBLY responded to mastery/prestige in front of you. It’s like me moaning why a guy doesn’t pick me while I’m standing next to a blond bimbo when I’m at best a 6. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?
Little help here. Hope it is not off topic too much. I was giving some professional advice on line (in an area of my expertise) and a woman commented, then asked to email me personally. We corresponded about professional issues for a while then she wanted to meet me. She was nice, but I told her that I was not interested in a LTR but I liked her as a friend. She keeps wanting to escalate things to a sexual nature, which I have so far refused. I have no idea what the next 10 years will hold for me, so I do not feel I can give a commitment to her or anyone. Big transition time for me, which may not include her. I have told her this and it does not seem to discourage her. How much responsibility do I have for her feelings? I would not mind being intimate with her since it has been almost 10 years, but not if it means hurting her in the long term.
@ms walsh:
While you do make a point about the how you call it, “manwhore” can be seen as problematic by women, still the concept of preselection is very powerful. Ive taled about the raphael siddiq concert i attended in central park in nyc; while there, i was blatantly hit on by an admittedly very attractive sista, right in the presence of ms brown sugah, complete with displays of her thinly veiled naughty bits courtesy of her thong which was quite visible as a result of her sheer bohemian style summer dress. Nor is the first time this has happened-more like upwards of a dozen times with ms brown sugah alone. Its happened with other ladies from my past as well.
I think the quality of the woman/women have a role to play here; “manwhore” to my mind/ear, implies a lack of discrimination insofar as sexual partners are concerned; whereas preselection, at least in the sense i am discussing, *can* suggest that women are interested in a man because he has proven to be able to attract (and retain) an at least somewhat high status mate.
In ny event preseleftion is held by gamesmen to be among if not the most powerful of principles because its the hardest to fake; and women are very attuned to any signs of deception, which is something else buss talks about in both his books.
O.
@sweetsue @mierelle re: michael
I think its both a bit harsh and a bit presumptive on both your parts about mikes situation as we are only looking at this situation through a keyhole instead of a door; as any gamesmen would know there are often many nuances and the like that have to be taken into account. Mikes question was legitimate because regardless as to how his personal situation went down it is a fact that women can and will approach and physically escalate; it happens all the time. In most cases this is because the man in question is unquestionably an alpha male. Beating up on mike isnt going to change that fact.
O.
”VISIBLY responded to mastery/prestige in front of you. It’s like me moaning why a guy doesn’t pick me while I’m standing next to a blond bimbo when I’m at best a 6. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?”
It does. Because someone else is still going to pick you up. Seems like, in that scenario, the guy would have to have tight game or great height/looks to be able to choose between you and the hot bimbo blonde girl. But you’ll still get pick-up by some other guy, maybe not as good as the one you had your eyes on.
”How I know that you’re definitely an omega, and an unpleasant one also? You adopted a very feminine attitude in that situation, ”
What does a very feminine attitude have anything to do with it? I am very youthful, lean, with very feminine facial features. My body structure is thin, not skinny-muscular; if she was attracted to my physical characteristics and these are feminine, wouldn’t she also be attracted to a feminine personality?
A month or so ago I had a long, thick beard, I was also pissed off as hell because I had broken both my arms and couldn’t ahem, alleviate myself. It was around the end of the month, so many women were ovulating. I had more than a few, very attractive women and youngish, rearrange their clothes while staring at me, putting themselves in front of me, leaving the bus/train/whatever and giving me lingering looks.
What gives? Is it the attitude, the facial hair the feminine appearance in itself or a combination of bad boy potential with a feminine contrast? or what? That makes these women attracted to me?
”She clearly saw you were not interest. You clearly were sending not interested signals and since she is smart enough to know there are more fish in the sea. ”
Actually, I was attracted to her, lol. She was pretty much my ideal woman. Natural blonde, shortish, skinny but not so skinny that her bones were showing, and she had very refined facial features, as if she was still in her mid-teens but I saw her fidget with her driver’s license(18 minimum, over here).
I admit that I was intimidated. I hang out too much with dudes who are over 6 feet tall, with the faces of Brad Pitt, perfect teeth etc. I’m not used to average women noticing my existence let alone a woman who was above average in every area of female beauty.
My father is a former AirForce pilot. We spend our weekends hanging out with military people and I am far more at ease with these guys who are far more bulky than me and taller too. I notice that the young women who happen to come across(major college near the military base we hang out at) prolong their stares.
Maybe, by being near Alpha men, I am not emotionally guarded or something, I’m able to be ”myself” and that could be attractive to young women. I don’t need game or whatever with women above the age of 30, but I’m not yet interested in them; I want to have some fun first;whereas women aged 18-25, I seem to always fck it up because I enter defensive mode, LOL.
One thing that I’ve seen a few times has really surprised me – a young woman is guilty of truly psycho behavior, but the guy rewards her for it. One example that comes to mind is a girl learning that her ex-bf was seeing someone new. She called him 60 times in one evening, lay in wait outside his apartment, yelled at him publicly repeatedly – until he took her back. And he did – he dumped the new girl and went back to the ex. IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?
Why does this surprise you in the slightest? This very post concerns the inordinate value men place on loyalty and emotional interest. The fact that she went to such extremes significantly raised her value in her ex-boyfriend’s eyes, so much so that he got rid of the new girl. It seems that few here are capable of drawing the logically obvious conclusion: since non-alpha men so readily exhibit “psycho” behaviors, they will tend to be receptive to the very “psycho” behaviors that women fear and alphas find irritating. Just because you don’t want to get twenty drunken pledges of undying loyalty on your phone doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t find it attractive. Displays of loyalty won’t work on women because they don’t find loyalty attractive. They won’t work on alphas because they don’t want relationships and therefore place little value on loyalty. But they will be very effective when directed towards commitment-friendly men.
In general, women would do much better to assume that men hate what they find attractive and find attractive what they hate than to assume men share their tastes. And the same goes for men.
@Bastiat, @Royale
Your comments about female aggression and entitlement make sense and ring true for me as well. It appears to be a case of the female escalating sexually while not fostering any kind of emotional connection. Indeed, the only “feeling” is the woman’s brief need for reassurance and the man’s willingness to give it. I’m sure those women believe they are taking a big risk when they behave that way – and they probably do get shot down quite a bit, even for casual sex. (While I don’t doubt the claim that a woman walking into a bar can get laid by yelling that she wants to, she is not likely to attract the man of her choice this way.) The problem is, they’re taking the wrong short-term risk, and a very big long-term risk. It’s hard to imagine that many productive relationships begin this way.
@Mireille
Eh, it’s not ever easy. But you’re right, it does get more difficult for women as they hit 30 or so. Still, you’ve figured out what you want, and you recognize what it is going to take. That’s a huge step. You may want to focus on men 5 years or so older than you are. Yes, I know many of them are already taken, but not all.
@Smfish
If I understand you correctly, you have made it clear to this woman that you have no romantic intentions toward her whatsoever, that you are not prepared to commit to anyone in any way, but she still wants to have sex with you.
I say go for it with a clear conscience. You have been 100% honest, and the responsibility for any future hurt feelings lies with her. OTOH, if you feel that she’ll become needy and dependent and generally bring a ton of drama, it might not be worth it.
@Obsidian
I agree completely – preselection and male promiscuity are not at all the same thing. I do think a lot of guys merge the two, assuming that the latter implies the former. In reality, men rack up numbers by getting with women who go in for casual sex, and we know they have certain traits and issues. They may be hot, but they also tend to be a hot mess. To female observers, this implies a lack of discernment, and certainly self-discipline, on the part of the male.
Women are far more likely to be attracted to the man out and about with his attractive woman, as you saw at the concert.
Again, players tend to commit the exception fallacy. While they admit they get shot down by 9 out of 10 women, they never stop to consider whether the 9 found them repellent precisely because of their slutty MO or their asshole vibe. I have no problem with that, if they’re happy with the results they’re getting with the one who goes for it. Whatever works. But I do think it’s extremely inaccurate to extrapolate about female preferences from that. That’s why studies, flawed as they are, are necessary and helpful – they at least can measure attitudes, if not actual behavior, among a random sample of women, rather than a group of women with certain traits in common.
@VD
I do get that, but it’s a bit like when a couple starts having fights just to get to the makeup sex. Once things are that out of control, I think it’s very, very difficult to get back to equilibrium. In fact, the couple in this case did break up again and for good a short while later. I appreciate that her loyalty was compelling, I guess I’m just surprised a guy with a new girl already lined up would go in for the drama.
Can you elaborate on this? It’s rare to hear men labeled psycho – what kinds of behaviors are you referring to?
Cosign.
Oy. Were you daydreaming during sex ed?
@Obsidian
I see where you’re getting at with the preselection thing. At the same time, there can be too much of a good thing. A guy with his girl is definitely preselected. A guy who has slept with half the people in that girls circle though is someone who a) is desperate for sex and b) chooses women who don’t mind getting a small piece of a guy because they don’t have much to offer a dude. It’s somewhat similar to the guy who goes out with too many unattractive women. At some point you have to wonder what’s up with the guy if that’s *all* he’s pulling.
“You have my permission to aggressively ignore all of your your haters on the interwebs, I think you get things pretty dam well”
Yep! Rum is right.
Susan, you have copped a lot of flak.. Mostly from people who haven’t even read what you have said.. Nor the comments from regular readers.
This is a good post!
You are making an effort to help women and men to get together for the long haul.
You have never been in the business of slagging off other bloggers..
You are focused on your mission..
Which is more than can be said for other(so called christian) bloggers who just want to denigrate and put others down who do not agree with them.
A good example of your decency and sense of fairplay, was when you allowed yrpua to express his views as a pua with links as well, even when you told him that you did not agree with what he espoused.. Not once did you denigrate him or cast aspersions on his character.
Now can you imagine the same courtesy extended on a so called christian blog like ______’s?’(still don’t know what that bloke stands for, seems almost ashamed of his Christianity)
There are some people who thrive on pointing out the speck in other peoples eyes whilst ignoring the beam in their own.
To sum up, I can see how you are helping young people to eschew promiscuity in place of faithfull monogomous marriage.
Others on the other hand just want to get down and dirty, and don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of making a difference, though their over inflated egos would suggest that they think otherwise.
You have been crystal clear in your motives..
It’s a damn shame that these fools have not read your posts and copious comments.
I have. And I know that you are the real thing!
Perhaps I’m reaching, but I think he’s in college. Women in the dorms do seem to synchronize ovulation.
@131 Mireille
Watch it with the feelings of superiority. You may be just as damaged as any guy who is still single in his thirties.
You don’t think you’re damaged? He may not either. Both of you have learned behaviors that you may need to unlearn.
Can you elaborate on this? It’s rare to hear men labeled psycho – what kinds of behaviors are you referring to?
For “psycho”, substitute “stalker” and “creep”. If a man is at all prone to behaving in a way that will get him labled “stalkery” and “creepy”, then that sort of behavior will likely win him over. You understand I’m not talking about the real stalkers, but rather, the middle- and lower-rank guys whose indicators of interest make the objects of their interest uncomfortable.
It’s for the same reason that I often erroneously thought I was doing people a favor by not bothering them, because I like to be left alone. We all make mistakes by assuming other people want what we want. The Golden Rule is a heuristic, not a reliable rule for optimal human behavior. But we can usefully observe human behavior and derive useful information about what might appeal to the behaving human.
@ms walsh #121:
Buss also mentions mate poaching as a mating strategy, which is true for both sexes, so we have to keep that in mind here; indeed, this is whats going on in terms of preselection when you really think about it.
O.
”Oy. Were you daydreaming during sex ed?”
I was smoking weed during sex education, lol . I figured that, since only Alpha males and bad boys get all of the sex, even from the good girls, what would be the point of putting up with that class. That’s like a deaf man found in Spanish class lol. I also skipped Physical Education to smoke weed because most of the girls had to use those tiny, skin-fit spandex pants.
Yes, I’m in college. I think the mating thing with the Alpha boys and the PUA’s take place more often during the later part of the month because the most of the girls in x female group(s) tend to be more sexual at the same time, during the end of the month.
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