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In this battle of the sexes, women need to blink first.

It is a man’s job to sexually escalate with a woman he is attracted to. As women control access to sex, he risks rejection in his quest to get it. Indeed, if women are appropriately discerning in their choice of sexual partner, most men will be rejected most of the time. Even hard core players confess to a 90% failure rate. Their strategy is based on volume rather than quality of approaches. 

Many women feel entitled to audition would-be lovers very selectively. If they experience a lack of attention – no guy shows up to audition – they blame men. If a guy does show up but decides not to stick around, he’s a douche. That’s not reasonable. You have no right to call a guy a jerk just because he doesn’t like you. Maybe you need to be more likable, or maybe you’re not compatible despite the initial chemistry.

The problem with this sense of entitlement is that it creates total passivity on the girl’s part. You don’t have very good control of your dating life if you are always waiting for a call or hoping the perfect guy is going to see you from across the room and say to his buddy, “See that girl in the red dress? I’m going to marry her.” 

Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.

A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. Women want emotional intimacy during sex, but they have sex before creating a foundation of emotional connection. Doing that work is your job, not his. If you hope for commitment, it makes no sense to leave it to chance, dreaming that a guy will fall for you based on your looks alone, or because you’re good in bed. A man will offer commitment when he is sufficiently emotionally invested to make the tradeoff to forfeit sexual variety. Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.

How to Escalate Emotionally with a Man

1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him.

Evolutionary psychologist David Buss surveyed American men to ask them which traits they consider most important for long-term mating. Out of 67 named traits, the number one priority for men was sexual faithfulness. (This is why guys are judgmental about your number – it’s a proxy for predicted future behavior.) Reader Lokland shared a valuable personal insight:

In the intial dating phase (say 6 months) the guy will be subconsciously (potentially consciously) looking for reasons to rule you out as a girlfriend.

One of those disqualifiers would definitely be trying to garner attention from other males. Call them faithfulness tests which utilize a pass-fail system initially.

Biologists believe that jealousy evolved as a way for males to prevent being cuckolded by other men. Jealousy reduces the likelihood that a woman will cheat. However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest. 

Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way. Men at HUS have said repeatedly that they want a woman to be hard to get for everyone else and easy to get for them alone. 

That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.

2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him. 

Reader Hope shared some excellent ways that a woman can show genuine interest in one particular man.

  • Ask him about the things he enjoys. Indicate that you’d like to try some with him.
  • Show that you care about the big picture stuff, like his work or school, but take the time to check in on the day to day. How was work today? How did your interview go? 
  • Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side. 
  • Get to know as much as you can about his family and friends. Give him strokes for being good to his mom, or being close with his siblings. Express interest in meeting his friends.

You need to calibrate your level of interest to suit the progression of the relationship. Don’t get way ahead of him, just draw him out gradually from the start to make your interest in him as a person clear. As Hope said, there is a risk here:

The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /

This is where women risk rejection. You can minimize your risk by screening carefully for traits that indicate he is a good guy who is open to a relationship. As Hope pointed out in a comment, sociopaths don’t open up emotionally – if you’re showing clear signs of emotional investment and he’s holding you at arm’s length, drive on. Another warning sign is when his behavior is inconsistent. He’s warm and cuddly when the two of you are alone together, then you meet up in a group and he avoids eye contact. No bueno.

3. Ask for his advice, support or help.

One of the ways that women bond and establish new friendships is by revealing vulnerabilities to one another. When a woman shares a confidence or asks advice from another woman, she is signaling that she likes her, trusts her, and wants to increase the intimacy in the relationship. Often the other female will respond in kind. This works with men too. 

It can be a problem you want to talk out, or a request that he help you put your IKEA furniture together. We all like to be needed, and we increase our emotional connection to others when we do kind things for them. He will probably like you more if you give him the opportunity to help you out. 

4. Be generous and appreciative.

Men love to be appreciated for their efforts and for investing in a woman, including monetarily. Too often women take men for granted when it comes to paying, or doing them favors (see IKEA request above). Reader J shared some great suggestions:

I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:

1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
3. Give honest compliments.
4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.

IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.

5. Share a lust for life. 

Hope again:

One thing that really gets guys going is a girl who is positive, full of life, and laughs a lot. A pretty girl smiling a genuinely happy smile as she looks into his eyes for a long time — that makes a man melt. I’ve never had a guy compliment me on my frown, but I have been told that my face lights up when I smile. A positive girl makes people around her feel more energized, which is very attractive. No needy, clingy, bitter, depressed or unhappy vibes.

6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to  him.

Again, this is where the risk of rejection happens for women. That’s OK, because it’s your job in the mating dance. This is where you lead. Go out on a limb. Say what you need to say.  This is the one that sealed the deal for me with my husband, by the way.

Reader Anacaona shared a great example of this. She had a strategy for meeting a man, and when she found one she liked, she made it very clear. Even though he was in another country, she made it easy for him to want to commit to her.

I was honest about how things were progressing for me. I sent the first message online, and in February when we had accumulated several hours online I sent him a Valentine. I think that made my husband feel more confident to pursue me further, especially because  in the USA men are expected to give Valentines while it is more or less optional for women.

Also, I have high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remembered them and asked him a lot about them. I also asked him about his old girlfriends. This is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men, women in his past occupy a special place so sharing these important emotional milestones with him makes you special to him.

I never asked him for presents, except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times. He made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band. Once we decided he would come and visit, I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him.

As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like. This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.

BUT. You should also tell him that the throbbing between your legs is about to drive you insane, and that you look forward to keeping him up all night. Also, as we’ve discussed here many times, he is not going to want to wait if other guys haven’t. If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.

Although it’s obvious, it bears mentioning that there are ways to please him sexually as you become secure in his affection. Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock. He will reward you emotionally. 

By the way, a lot of what’s described in this post is what men call femininity.

Each sex has a job to do in finding the balance between sex and commitment. Embrace your role and your responsibility from the start. Nurture the emotional connection from the moment you meet someone. It’s never too early.

Cast the Principle of Least Interest aside, and stop worrying about who has the upper hand. In this battle of the sexes, women need to blink first.

  • Ramble

    Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him.

    I want to pick a small nit and say that you should only focus all of your sexual attraction on him if that is what you are genuinely feeling. I understand that many will respond with, “Well, duh!”, but I think it is important to say.

    It’s OK if you like some guy, but you are not that sexually attracted to him. Better to recognize this and THEN figure out your game plan, then try to force something.

    A pretty girl smiling a genuinely happy smile as she looks into his eyes for a long time — that makes a man melt.

    Hope, Susan,
    Apparently guys are not all that smart when it comes to evaluating a girls smile. Girls, unsurprisingly, much better at determining exactly what is being communicated with the various kinds of smiles that people offer. Whereas guys really like seeing a girl smile and don’t always pick up on that different nuances.

    Although it’s obvious, it bears mentioning that there are ways to please him sexually as you become secure in his affection. Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock. He will reward you emotionally.

    Susan, you might want to clarify what you are saying here so that you don’t have one of your readers do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94wGndbOIPk

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, you might want to clarify what you are saying here so that you don’t have one of your readers do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94wGndbOIPk

      Haha, I knew what that would be before I clicked on it. Did you notice the sign on the cash register? “If you’re going to shoplift, let us know.”

      I’ll be happy to clarify that women should not use that approach. I didn’t do it in the post because it’s obviously addressed to women who aren’t going to “go with guys” after a couple of hangs.

      A discerning woman who is not promiscuous should not be building up to a relationship in this way very often. The BJ should come only after she feels secure emotionally.

  • Just1X

    “Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock.”

    I’m REALLY looking forward to the comments on this thread

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock.”

      I’m REALLY looking forward to the comments on this thread

      Haha, I am glad we lured you out of retirement!

  • Ramble

    Just1X, welcome back.

  • Just1X

    Hi Ramble,

    I over did the blog reading for a while there and have scaled back the hours spent on the web. Been looking in from time to time, but with posts getting 1000+ comments it’s tough to commit. I need to be getting techy again soon, but for this thread, well I can’t resist seeing where it’s going to go…sits back with a glass of wine (for medicinal purposes)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I need to be getting techy again soon, but for this thread, well I can’t resist seeing where it’s going to go…sits back with a glass of wine (for medicinal purposes)

      Haha, you always do this on Fridays! I find myself envying you as my weekend is still several hours away.

  • INTJ

    This male endorses your post. :)

  • Ramble

    “If you’re going to shoplift, let us know.”

    That movie was shot right next to where I went to school.

  • Just1X

    Hey the wine is for medicinal use!

    There was this zombie ambush and a ‘charger’ slammed me over the bonnet (hood) of a truck and pummeled me and I pulled a muscle in my back.

    Part of that was true (you can take a wild stab as to which part), but anyway, my back is killing me and the painkillers require liquid reinforcement.

    But Yes! let the weekend roll. Only two days long this time, but I’m starting early

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Oh, sorry to hear that! I hope at least the weather is crappy if you’re flat on your back.

  • http://asinusspinasmaticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest.

    Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest.

    Projection.

    The only reason I can imagine that women would think that tactic would work on a man is that it works so well on a woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Projection.

      The only reason I can imagine that women would think that tactic would work on a man is that it works so well on a woman.

      Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to. You’d think getting poor results would clue us in, but often we do get a rise out of a guy this way, even if it’s him getting very angry. We then interpret that as “he cares” and expect our stock to rise, when in reality he’s already dumping it. Because there’s often a time lag, women remain clueless.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    Two rules that women must understand:

    1. The feminine attracts the masculine

    2. Men are the gatekeepers to commitment

  • Chris_in_CA

    Okay, I just had to pick myself up off the floor. Best laugh I’ve had in weeks.

    Not because of the material here; I think these are good things for a woman to do while progressing into a serious relationship. It’s because you actually said “women need to blink first.”

    You honestly expect them to do THAT?!

    They have NO reason to do so now. They have the legal power to ruin men at a whim. They can walk away from ANY relationship at ANY time and extract a benefit on the way. I’ve personally heard teenage girls talk about how ‘they’ decide when it’s time for a relationship.

    You may want women to understand that they need to invest in cementing a relationship. It does indeed provide incentive for a man to commit.

    But with the legal AND social environments the way they are now? I wouldn’t bet a penny on it happening en masse any time soon. Not with near-daily “man up!” articles coming out, vitriol hurled at men just for standing in a bookstore’s childrens section, men blamed for their wives/girlfriends cheating…nope.

    ===========

    That said, here’s a brief comment on one paragraph’s contents.

    “As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like.”

    Of course he will. If he doesn’t push, the woman will see him as a beta chump & lose attraction. We’ve even seen such behavior described here.

    “This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.”

    Agreed. It’s okay to say no – IF you’ve made it clear that you do find him desirable, and want to continue the escalation. Otherwise, well, you’re just stringing him along.

    “If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.”

    And how’s he supposed to know that’s actually true? Answer: He can’t. There’s no way he can be sure. So he’ll be cautious–and he has every right to be. Sorry, harsh truth.

    Again, there is good advice for the social side of relationships here. But the legal side of things now is so corrosive that it erodes the foundation out from under the social side.

  • N

    “However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest. ”

    This is so, so true. I broke up with my girlfriend over this recently; we were each other’s firsts. She tried to stop me by telling me she loved me … even though she was regularly seeking attention from other guys, including my roommates. In every other way she was exactly what I was looking for (smart, attractive, kind, well educated, making excellent money out of college–in fact, she did everything suggested on the list except item (1)) and I was rather seriously thinking longer term, but this one thing was a deal breaker. There are plenty of women who find me attractive, and I would rather be with one who wants *me*–even if she is not as competent as my ex-girlfriend.

    Facebook messaging my roommate (whom she only met through me), telling him “it was so nice to see you and I’m sorry we didn’t get to talk more!!!!” when she visiting me, inviting other guy “friends” on ski trips we take together … such behavior is not consistent with telling me I’m a hot guy and then, shortly thereafter, mentioning that, long term, she wants to marry a hot guy.

    I do think she genuinely cared about me and was trying to make me jealous. Indeed, it worked… I was jealous. The thing is, though, the jealousy did not make me want her more; instead, it made me resent the time I had put into the relationship. I have no interest in competing with other men … I am who I am–take it or leave it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @N

      Great comment, I’m going to pull out and bold part so that women will see it again:

      I do think she genuinely cared about me and was trying to make me jealous. Indeed, it worked… I was jealous. The thing is, though, the jealousy did not make me want her more; instead, it made me resent the time I had put into the relationship.

  • http://asinusspinasmaticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to.

    And it is equally baffling to men why entertaining another woman’s flirtations in front of your wife or girlfriend will make her want to rip your clothes off later that night.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “I hope at least the weather is crappy”

    Oh don’t worry, we have crap weather up to the top of our waders over here. And the medication means that I am feeling little pain right now.

    I like ‘N’s style – just say no to game playing. It will be interesting to see whether the females here think that she might have been doing it out of insecurity…? Personally I think N was bang on.

    Any difference of opinion will be most instructive for the purposes of the post…

  • Abbot

    If a man claims women are the gatekeepers then he is slut shaming. Because its all slutshaming. If its disagreeable, its slutshaming. Note this quote:

    “You get the feeling when guys rant about hating make-up that they’re kind of calling you a slut for wearing it.”

    Yep, that is our very own Amanda Marcotte who is referring to this –

    http://cdn.slacktory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dear-girls-dress-as-i-dictate.jpeg

    So basically any opinion you have about how you prefer women is well, slut shaming. How convenient, that slutshame card.

    How about a SlutShameWalk so men can finally reclaim the word and own it!

  • Abbot

    Since its a fact that women control access to sex then controlling or restricting it puts her on a high pedestal for good men seeking to commit. Universally.

  • Cooper

    There’s so much here, in the OP and the comments, that I agree with that I care to mention. (it’s almost everything that has been said)

    “However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest. ”

    I’ve done this. Usually how “crazy” I am over a girl only affects my level of interest so much – and it’s usually more to do with how I view hers.
    If I think the she is somewhat “undecided” in either her attraction towards me, or what she wants from a relationship, I’ll choose to work on getting rid of my feels (cause I really don’t like someone else having influence my emotions) over trying to produce them in her.

    If I have to work to ‘convince’ her of her own interest, then her mind is bound to change back eventually. (this is why I’m not a huge fan of suggesting Game to acquire LTRs)

    “Cast the Principle of Least Interest aside, and stop worrying about who has the upper hand”
    I think this is excellent advice for both sexes.

  • also intj

    Great post, Susan.

    Just1X, it’s great to see you back. I’ve missed your humour!

  • Sassy6519

    Excellent post Susan. I’ve committed many of these tips to memory already.

    It’s good to be reminded of what I need to do, as a woman, to make any man feel like the king I believe him to be. When you treat a man like a king, he’ll return the favor by treating you like a queen, for the most part.

  • Ramble

    When you treat a man like a king, he’ll return the favor by treating you like a queen, for the most part.

    Sassy, I understand and appreciate what you were trying to say, but, men, in general, do not want a Queen, and very often do not want a princess.

    They want the girl next door.

    I understand that you were saying to “treat her like a queen” and not that they wanted one, but, still, they are high maintenance.

  • Senior Beta

    See there. You and Roissy/Roosh are not so far apart after all. Yea feminity!

  • JCclimber

    @N
    Young man, your game is definitely sub-par.
    1) You had one-itis.
    2) You have swallowed the feminist lie that “education” and “earning power” of a potential mate really matter to your long-term happiness.
    3) You got butt-hurt because she was flirting with other men
    4) Instead of getting all bent out of shape about her inviting male friends on ski trips, you should have escalated. Either tell her to invite every other guy friend that she’s thinking about fucking (and then break up with her), or tell her you’re invited some of your better looking female friends along too, implying they are backup plans for yourself.
    5) The only long term female attributes that you should focus on are these: attractive, kind, and wise (not smart, wise. Look up the difference).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Sassy, I understand and appreciate what you were trying to say, but, men, in general, do not want a Queen, and very often do not want a princess.

    They want the girl next door.

    I understand that you were saying to “treat her like a queen” and not that they wanted one, but, still, they are high maintenance.

    No problem man. I agree with you. Being high maintenance can definitely be a turn off.

    Being treated like a king or queen, in my opinion, is like a reciprocal benefit. The effect compounds on itself the more that each person is treated well. A woman treats a man like a king. In return, the man treats the woman like a queen. Since she is also being shown love and devotion, she ups the amount of love and devotion she shows her man. The cycle continues around and around.

    Nothing is worse, from either side, to do nice things for someone you care about and they don’t show you the same kindness in return.

    I have a great example of this. Once, for my ex-boyfriend, I planned a surprise candlelit dinner. I made fresh spinach lasagna, I lit candles, I played soft music, the whole shebang. I even bought myself one of those frilly feminine aprons insprired by the 40s/50s. When he got home and saw the surprise I had planned for him, he was unappreciative. He blew out the candles, turned off the music, and only ate one slice of the lasagna. He never touched it again, and I ended up eating the rest of it over the next 2 weeks so that it wouldn’t go to waste.

    It’s safe to assume that I rarely cooked for him anymore after that. His actions showed me that he didn’t really like the gesture.

    When I meet the love of my life, who showers me with love/affection, you can bet that I’ll enjoy spoiling him rotten with food and a heaping helping of affection.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Once, for my ex-boyfriend, I planned a surprise candlelit dinner. I made fresh spinach lasagna, I lit candles, I played soft music, the whole shebang. I even bought myself one of those frilly feminine aprons insprired by the 40s/50s. When he got home and saw the surprise I had planned for him, he was unappreciative. He blew out the candles, turned off the music, and only ate one slice of the lasagna.

      What a crank! I don’t know if he’d had a bad day or what but that is just inexcusable.

      I always found that cooking for men was a great shortcut to emotional investment. There’s something about the nurturing that goes into preparing and feeding a man that they just adore. Then you give them an hour to digest before taking their hand and leading them into the bedroom. That’s the grand slam of Girl Game, in my experience. There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.” Today’s women have substituted penis for stomach, but the original version is the one that rings true.

  • Underdog

    Not sure if this has been posted, but here’s a “cautionary tale” article from CNN.

  • Underdog
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Underdog

      I wonder if the woman who wrote that article has any trouble finding relationships. She gave off an aura of contentment, which is hard to imagine.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Thanks for the shot out. :)
    Two in the same week. Athol’s new post was about the issues with my possibly soon exbestfriend. Hopefully the week/month will keep being so nice to me. :D

  • Just1X

    @Also – thanks, your greeting is appreciated and it’s nice to look back in.

    I’d have been back sooner if I’d known Sassy was doing humour on the scale of

    “When you treat a man like a king, he’ll return the favor by treating you like a queen, for the most part”

    I LMAO when I got to the ‘for the most part’ – fantastic, I lurve that one.

    @Sassy have you been taking lessons from Mr Munson?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    Sassy have you been taking lessons from Mr Munson?

    Haha! No, I haven’t.

    Speaking of Munson, I haven’t heard from him in awhile on here. I wonder what he’s up to.

  • Ramble

    A woman treats a man like a king. In return, the man treats the woman like a queen. Since she is also being shown love and devotion, she ups the amount of love and devotion she shows her man. The cycle continues around and around.

    Again, I understand what you are saying about reciprocating, and, I agree.

    But, I want to re-iterate that it is very possible that girls want their man to be their “King”, whereas, the man, in return, will want to reciprocate in a way that does NOT make her his “Queen” (or Princess).

  • Michael

    Question:

    If women do the rejecting, and women are only interested in average men when it’s time to get married; why don’t women approach when for some magical reason the women perceive the average man to be an Alpha?

    I see Alpha males all the time getting hit on, being taken by the hand and such into the bathroom to have sex etc etc.

    I have never seen Alpha Males suffering the need to approach women, so why should the average man?

    Example, went to college today. My dad came along because he’s retired and doesn’t like to sit home all day. After I did what I had to do, we go to the train station. My father, being an engineer, worked as the lead engineer in many of the main subway hubs so he talks mightily and rules over his turf.

    A very, very attractive 18-22 year old woman, dressed in very feminine attire, had her ears perk up. She obviously became aware that the man who was attracting all of the attention in the station was my father because I’m exactly like my dad, only one inch shorter and with dark hair.

    The young woman stared for 5 minutes, at me. She’d try to catch my eye, then she’d fixate her eyes on me. I noticed her presence, obviously, but I made no move, as I’m used to being rejected by below average women(I don’t punch above my weight, and average men are at the bottom of the sexual market) so when the young woman began to send these signs of interest I looked the other way.

    Our train arrived and the girl, instead of coming up to me and entering my carriage, elected to enter the carriage next to my carriage. She looked at me, entered the carriage, never to be seen again.

    Actually, I think she might be a newcomer to my college, but I sure as heck ain’t gonna be searching the college for her, LOL.

    I just don’t understand why she didn’t introduce herself to me. As she saw me with the eyes of Alphaness emanating from my father onto myself, she should have acted like all of the other women who go into 15 year old horny girl mode when an Alpha male is near them.

    What’s up with this?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    There’s something about the nurturing that goes into preparing and feeding a man that they just adore.

    In healthy eating class they taught us, that for most people dieting is hard because the first thing we do after the trauma of birth is being feed by our moms. The first comforting experience of going back to the warm we had is eating so must of us have a connection an emotional connection with food and I can say that mothers are always offering something to eat to their kids so yeah knowing how to cook should be on the base of femininity game. The dad might had hunt the mammut but the mother is the one cooking it and offering.

    There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.”

    Because the ribs don’t get in the way of the knife, to cut it out ;)
    Sorry, hubby loves that saying I can’t help but think about it every time I hear the first part.

  • Underdog

    @Susan

    That was the first thing I thought about also. Google didn’t reveal much about her personal life.

  • http://asinusspinasmaticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @Susan -

    Google Image that woman. I have to say the bar isn’t very high to be a sex kitten when you’re in your 20s.

    The article doesn’t mention a significant man, and from what I know about Women Of A Certain Age, had there been one, he would have been not only mentioned, but lionized.

    Like Lizzy Wurtzel, she’ll have her eloquence to keep her warm. You’ll have Mr. HUS.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule

      Ouch, she’s got that horsey look, and she’s a self-proclaimed reformed tramp of 40. She’s ready for the glue factory, with half her life still to go. As Underdog said, she’s a cautionary tale.

  • Abbot

    After her prolific gatekeeper fail, this is what you get. It might be worth it, with some training, if not for the slew of pump and dumps.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/samir/overly-attached-girlfriend-is-the-girlfriend-mem?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=buzzfeed

  • Cooper

    I’ve for a question. (lol don’t I always!)

    When a girl (usually an existing platonic one) says “I hate being single” or “I wish I had a boyfriend” – do they intend for it to be a clue for me to escalate?

    I heard this a few times from girls I know, and quite honestly it always has me cringe and turns me off the idea of escalating. To me, it’s the equivalent of saying “gosh, there really isn’t a member of the opposite sex in my life which I find attractive” – which, IMO, is an indirect (and perhaps unintensional) insult.
    Thoughts…?

  • Escoffier

    JCclimber at 27:

    That to me is a textbook example of the limits of game. If a girl behave’s like N’s, and it’s incumbent on me to do all that to keep her, then I don’t want her. You playas can have her.

  • Escoffier

    Cooper:

    No. It means, “You are a non-threatening beta to whom I can spill my guts and treat like an unpaid shrink, oblivious to your feelings as I blather about myself for hours on end.”

  • Ramble

    When a girl (usually an existing platonic one) says “I hate being single” or “I wish I had a boyfriend” – do they intend for it to be a clue for me to escalate?

    Coop, I’ve done this before:

    [at some random house party]
    Girl: Ugh, I hate being single.
    Ramble: Come here. Come Here! Sit next to me, I’ll be your boyfriend for tonight. We will hold hands and then you can get me a beer.
    (She giggles and sits next to me. I hold her hand and she will rest her head on my shoulder. A little later, “Be a good girl and get me a beer”. She smiles and gets me a beer.)

    You can go all out with this. Girls love role playing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I didn’t realize you had such tight Game. That fake girlfriend bit was tingle inducing.

  • Ted D

    Susan – I don’t have much time to post today as this is the last day out kids will be here for the summer. But I wanted to say this post is spot on to me. Or as Dog squat would say: steel on target.

    Now to just convince the masses of brainwashed young women that being feminine is OK…

  • J

    It’s cool to be quoted, SW. Thanks!

    A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally.

    Men don’t realize how risky this feels to women, but what the hell. If he rejects you emotionally, you sure don’t want to give him a chance to reject you sexually.

    There’s an old saying that “the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.”….Because the ribs don’t get in the way of the knife,

    That’s a stitch.

  • JCclimber

    @escoffier
    Yeah, my prescription was rather difficult, I admit. I mean, opening your mouth and saying 2 sentences, or picking up the phone and inviting a couple female friends along, is so so hard to do!!!

    Much harder than the many hours N has spent worrying about some foolish child who is desperate for a high value man to act like he has high value and some self-respect.

    I suppose you could call me a player, as my wife called me when she first met me. But seriously, the one-itis is disgusting to both men and women alike. I mean, outside of romance novels and hollywood movies.

  • Jonny

    I’m not sure how useful the advice is since women are already considered sexual objects. They shouldn’t project sluttiness since it will be a turnoff for men seeking a long-term relationship. Surely, if a woman is interested, they should show interest instead of getting emotional or displaying sexual energy, which is the wrong impression.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    “Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.”

    Yes, the “great ones.” I remember that! I loved that movie. The narrator was smitten, and his love interest certainly was “elegant” as he had stated. That sub-plot was so sweet.

    This blog post is extremely illuminating. It has never occurred to me to look at female emotional investment as a functional courting role. I never fully realized what the female equivalent of a man’s buying dinner was. Maybe I “knew” subconsciously, but I’ve never really looked at it this plainly before. You’re absolutely correct, it is often times rejected, but seeing this as similar to men’s trial and error is very comforting. I don’t feel so bad about past emotional rejections any more. It’s just a matter of him taking a look at your “wares” so to speak and deciding that he does or does not want them. Period. Nothing to do with him being a terrible person.

    @Sassy
    “I have a great example of this. Once, for my ex-boyfriend, I planned a surprise candlelit dinner. I made fresh spinach lasagna, I lit candles, I played soft music, the whole shebang. I even bought myself one of those frilly feminine aprons insprired by the 40s/50s. When he got home and saw the surprise I had planned for him, he was unappreciative. He blew out the candles, turned off the music, and only ate one slice of the lasagna.”

    This strategy has one very critical nuance…it only works if you give him what he *wants*. Spinach lasagna sounds delicious, but if none of that experience appealed to him, then it’s nothing more than just a delicious spinach lasagna.

    I always had mixed results until I figured this out. One ex contacted me 5 years after college to complain about his then wife. He asked if I could make him a peach cheesecake like I did for one of his past birthdays. Another ex called, also with complaints about his wife, and longed for the pancakes I used to make for him…stupid, simple instant pancakes. lol. And then there are times when I cooked and it had no impact. I think that the less you try to build up a grand mystique around the cooking, and the more “organic” the experience is, the more effective it is. Winning a man over through cooking is part technique (non-terrible cooking) and part opportunity (the right moment).

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Abbot
    “After her prolific gatekeeper fail, this is what you get. It might be worth it, with some training, if not for the slew of pump and dumps.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/samir/overly-attached-girlfriend-is-the-girlfriend-mem?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=buzzfeed

    OMG, this is hilarious!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Royale

      OMG, this is hilarious!

      What’s really strange is that girls like that can do pretty well. My brother dated a girl like that for a while. The guy doesn’t have to do anything – she takes control of everything. Lame!

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms royale:
    Hmm. Ms sassys culinary faux pas and your response thereto, were quite interesting indeed on a whole host of levels. Illuminating indeed.

    Reading about past boyfriends and such: i have, and would never, do such a thing, and do not understand for the life of me why apparently so many guys do this. It seems akin to a dog going back to lick up his own vomit if you will. Once im gone from a woman i do not look back. She may still live on in my memories but thats about it. The mere thought of doing what youve reported about past boyfriends and such is anathema to me; so alien as to be surreal in a salvador dali way.

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Royale

    This strategy has one very critical nuance…it only works if you give him what he *wants*. Spinach lasagna sounds delicious, but if none of that experience appealed to him, then it’s nothing more than just a delicious spinach lasagna.

    That’s possible. I knew he liked spinach lasagna though. I think he had experienced a very bad day at work that time. He seemed rather moody when he got home, and he took it out on me. Like Susan said, it was uncalled for.

    @ Obsidian

    Hmm. Ms sassys culinary faux pas and your response thereto, were quite interesting indeed on a whole host of levels. Illuminating indeed.

    I believe I caught him on the wrong day at the wrong time. I don’t believe that it was a faux pas at all.

    If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest.

  • FeralEmployee

    Where is the rule that tells you to apply previous rules with moderation? Seems like a straightforward thing to do, but in today’s society, everything is done in extreme measures. Don’t think most men want a clinger, which is the impression I get from reading the list.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Sassy sounds like quite a catch besides that whole “no-kids” thing.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian

    Sorry for the offensive stories, but that’s how I found out what impact those specific acts of cooking really had on them. If they never spoke up, I would have never realized it.

    Perhaps the information age enables and encourages revisiting past SO’s. I was college friends with both the cheesecake ex-boyfriend and his wife and they were in my Facebook network. His wife divorced him, he contacted me, then I burned that bridge with napalm. The second had been my friend since childhood. There’s more history with him than just an “ex.”

  • yrpua

    Posting this here ’cause my posts didn’t seem to show up in the old Dominance thread so I don’t know if it’s locked for being old news or what haha Anyway, here y’all go:

    I’m linking these videos so people can see what actual pickup in-field looks like. It’s generally not like the sleazy Hollywood player style pickup that you see in movies. In fact you’ll find a lot of this comes off as just normal fun flirty conversation between two people. Some of them are using “light game” some are using “dark game”, some are mixing a combo of the two together.

    I also figure Friday is a good day to link these. Men reading this can see how much fun going out and socializing tonight could be for them, and women reading this can learn what to watch out for. ;)

    Things to note:

    1) A lot of these videos take place either during the day time, or outside of clubs at night. If you’ve spent any time around drunk people you can tell that a lot of the girls in the outside-at-night scenes aren’t drunk or at most have a couple drinks in them. They’re not the falling over hammered grinding-the-stripper-pole 18yo slutty whores that most people picture is all PUAs go for (in fact we don’t LIKE really drunk girls, they don’t get any of our verbal wit, wordplay, or innuendo, it’s annoying lol).

    2) Most of the PUAs aren’t drinking or drunk, in fact Tyler from RSD promotes an extremely healthy lifestyle (no drinking, drugs, eating healthy foods, taking healthy supplements, working out regularly, etc.). These aren’t sloppy falling-over slurring drunk frat boys…so the contrast between these really confident sober interesting guys gives them a big foothold up over the generic “player” at the bar that people picture in their heads.

    3) There are definitely akward situations and blow-outs, but with that whole “baby learning to walk analogy” once you see it in action you’ll see that they’re not emotionally crippling girls for life. They’re occasionally making uncalibrated comments (sometimes on purpose lol) and at worst causing an akward interaction…they’re not running around knocking girls out and raping them to learn not to do that lol

    4) Some of the guys are good looking, some of them aren’t…but what you’ll notice is that ALL of them attempt to have some sort of style. They take what they were dealt and work with it. Tyler isn’t a hot guy, but he dresses well for his body type and generally looks done up and like he’s socially competant. Cajun is a scruffy mofo, but he embraces it and plays it up. Soul could look pretty awful on a Sunday morning if he didn’t take care of himself, but he wears stylish coats, etc. Even Jeffy, he walks around with a trailer-park mullet and stuff, but he embraces it and makes it a part of his “look”. Contrast this to the Silicon Valley nerd guy in badly-fitting khakis with his Blackberry attached to his waist and ugly out-dated glasses from college and a plain boring polo shirt that doesn’t fit nice. You can get around looks, PUAs purposely go out looking like shit sometimes just to re-enforce that to themselves, but generally pickup promotes “do the best with what you’ve got, but don’t stress it if you don’t have the Tall Dark & Handsome thing because it really won’t make a difference”

    Enjoy. :)

    —–

    First off, here’s how a lot of PUAs are created. This guy was around before The Game was published. Watch this from start to end and you’ll get a better idea of why guys study pickup and leave the whole Blue Pill lifestyle behind:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDcNjhYJLwg

    Here’s Cajun from Lovesystems. He went on a Canadian TV show called Keys to the VIP where guys in clubs try to get phone numbers and stuff from girls. He was just going to support his cousin who’s on the show but the guy his cousin was up against came off too creepy on camera so they asked Cajun to give it a go. He’s representing a pickup company on national TV so he has massive pressure on him in this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBErW5NFUI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCyZdBjTwbM

    Here’s Tyler from RSD. He’s like a 5’8″ balding pale ginger with a high-pitch voice and occasionally a ridiculous beard. He doesn’t drink or do drugs or anything and he’s like 32 I believe:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEFgvbNBTbk – (first 2 min is in-field footage, the rest is his course sales pitch so you can stop watching at 2 min)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8k430ufLA – (there’s in-field footage spliced into various parts of this video. At 7:00 a HEB-M tries to take his girl from him, how come she doesn’t ditch short balding pale Tyler for the 6’4″ super-jock Bastiat? I don’t understand it, he’s taller and better looking, she should push Tyler down and run off with the guy!!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuKRboBBtak – (skip to like 3:30 for in-field stuff, the first 3.5 min is just him blabbing)

    Here are the Simple Pickup guys. They’re relatively new to the scene but gained massive momentum online when their videos went viral. These guys know what they’re doing but they like to just fuck around so a lot of their videos are of them doing ridiculous shit…their point in it is that a lot of the stuff guys worry about (looking right, saying the right thing, etc.) doesn’t really matter. They also mostly do day game, so it’s sober city, and in fact they hit up college campuses (the very girls this blog is targeted at, right?)

    Also they’re a white guy, asian guy, and brown guy. For anyone who said asian guys would have trouble blah blah blah, the Asian guy is probably the best one out of these 3. Also they like to make things really akward for people and purposely get shot down a lot for the fun of it, prepare to squirm a lot lol:

    NOTE: The Asian guy in these videos is Kong, the AFC from the Yellow Fever videos linked below, except a few years later after he’s learned actual game. Compare his vibe now compared to that Yellow Fever Part 1 video. Is he now a lying deceitful horrible monster? No, he’s just learned how to approach and attract girls.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO_A7M0pesg – (this one is to show they actually have game lol)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0zzXAXulg – (the rest of these they’re pretty much just fucking around for fun, they get shot down a TON but they’re just messing around)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_4EUvnURs – (security comes after Kong at the end because his buddies told them he was a sexual predator preying on underage girls lol, note the To Catch A Predator joke…is THAT the response ANYONE would recommend in that situation? But after that the guards love him)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAGiQ3AWKqI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muT-9YPDZsI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64Ixzp94ksw – (they like to just fuck around and mess with social pressure and social norms to show how you can say/do a lot of things Keyboard Jockey theory would tell you you can’t do)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OhW83s3S6w

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lmy46uTQ

    Here’s a classic Mystery montage, don’t know if he slept with the girls in solo pics of themselves, but there’s plenty of video/pics of him in bed with girls:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1loAxTH_Jw

    Here’s Soul from Lovesystems, he does primarily daygame and he’s a brown dude hitting on white chicks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njDfgsTqUFE

    Here’s Julien from RSD…uhhh, he’s a bit more of an asshole that Tyler lol Don’t let his height/looks blind you to the alpha attributes he displays, plenty of good looking tall guys don’t get laid, watch his dominance, vocal tonality, kino/touch, escalation, sexual conversation, etc.:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWrFgIR6CU

    Here’s Jeffy from RSD, he’s like 5’7″ and has a mullet, dirty t-shirts, etc. Basically looks like a complete sleaze. He had a reputation for hooking up with ugly chicks lol but hey, to each his own. Also his buddies and him bang college girls in what’s affectionately called “The Rape Van” (yes, he tells girls that’s what it’s called). It looks like this:

    http://www.lolbrary.com/lolpics/312/pedobear-van-3312.jpg

    Girls willingly get into it, and have sex in it. Anyway, here’s some in-field footage of him:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hov3HfyNhn4

    Yellow Fever Part 1 – This is an Asian AFC approaching girls. He’s really new to game in this, this is the type of PUA a lot of girls run into. Warning: This is long and kind of boring lol, skip around to where the Asian guy is approaching and suck in the akwardness:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOeAfnv045s

    Yellow Fever Part 2 – This is an Asian PUA approaching girls. 4:05 is the best approach. Note this guy’s confidence, body language, tone of voice, how he’s not afraid to hold his frame and not afraid of akward silence, etc. etc:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj5D2i2O9D0

    Here’s Alexander from RSD. He’s a young’un and this is basically just a big montage of his year travelling and teaching pickup:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUpazytmt1M

    Happy Friday everyone! Now go out and talk to some new people this weekend. :)

  • Tom.s

    Susan, you should really place this one in your “best posts’ tab.

    I would totally ask a woman who acted toward me that way to be my girlfriend!

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Yrpua

    You know it’s the links that get you thrown into spam. I’ve retrieved everything, and saved the extra copies. I think this should work. Sorry for the mixup before – not sure what happened there.

  • Marie

    “That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.”

    So basically I should stop dating other guys before he has given signals that he has stopped seeing other girls? As you say, guys want sexual variety, and given a guy has options, he is not going to say no to other girls if he is not exclusive to one. I’m interpreting this as there being a phase where you do not know if he adds hot girls on facebook, makes a move on girls on nights out and yet you should still show total dedication?
    Susan, didn’t you once write that unless you have agreed to be exclusive, you are a free agent, and should date around?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marie

      Susan, didn’t you once write that unless you have agreed to be exclusive, you are a free agent, and should date around?

      Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Dating is shopping. You should date around until you see something you want to buy, i.e. invest in. Once you are interested in one particular guy, you should start the process of bonding emotionally with him. Keeping in mind, of course, that you are still getting to know him – you should be prepared to abort the mission if you find out something that changes your feelings for him.

      In the early days, while you are trying to get things going with one guy, he may take it slower than you would like. He may need more time or be ambivalent. That’s fine – you are not having sex, so you may continue to date other people. In fact, I would encourage it. You can still make it clear you like him, but that until you’re off the market – you’re on the market.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Timing is everything darling; i see there is much yet to learn, you still have. ;)

    @ms royale:
    You know what, just as i was finishing up my comment it occured to me just what you wrote-a combo of factors that, if they arent the cause of this whole notion of past boyfriends hectoring their exes, then surely facilitates it: college and social media. Now what im about to say is purely personal/anecdotal and in no way represents anyone but myself; but i think i understand why things have gone this way.

    My exposure to both college life and social media is quite limited; and in both the common thread is the idea of “lifelong friendships” and the like. For example, i havent seen anyone from my highschool days, havent attended any reunions and havent missed any of it. Wrt social media, while have a twitter and facebook accounts, i only use them to alert my followers as to my blog updates and the like. Ive found that college guys-again this is just my personal view here nothing scientific-seem to have a differing manner of interacting with women in general than guys who come from a background more like my own. For example like i said, the very thought of reaching out to an ex-let alone requesting her to cook for me-after a breakup or otherwise, is just alien to me. Moreover, i have heard quite a few stories of women who, like yourself, never seem to lack any number of guys who want to in some way discuss either their previous life with you and or discuss some facet of their relationship life with their current so’s. The whole thing just repulses me for some reason i have yet to be able to fully articulate.

    O.

  • Tom.s

    @FeralEmployee

    The woman ‘having a life’ would easily remove feelings of ‘clinging’

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Timing is everything darling; i see there is much yet to learn, you still have. ;)

    Timing is everything, in that situation?

    So I’m just supposed to psychically know when my boyfriend will have a bad day at work, and avoid surprising him with one of his favorite foods?

    Mmmhmm.

    @ A Definite Beta Guy

    Sassy sounds like quite a catch besides that whole “no-kids” thing.

    Why thank you sir! I appreciate the compliment.

  • Odds

    @ Marie

    Sort of. You’re overthinking it. What you should do is only date one guy at a time anyway, and preferably date decent guys who don’t see more than one woman at once (a rule I’ve stuck to even as I’ve started to have success in the hookup scene). Make it clear to the guy at some point that you want to be exclusive, with him, and never flirt with other guys in the time leading up to that.

    If he is seeing other girls, it’s your choice whether or not to keep seeing him, but the only guys who will commit 100% before you are so beta you won’t want them anyway.

  • Underdog

    Nice links, yrpua. Another Asian PUA who’s quite influential is JT Tran, an aerospace engineer for Boeing before he quit and started doing/teaching pick up. He’s a former student of Mystery, I think. He even got invited to Harvard and Yale to do seminars for the Asian students there lol.

  • Odds

    Re: cooking.

    The last huge unrequited crush I had started over fresh cupcakes. Since then, I’ve learned to cook, and used it to get chicks with some success. Have to say that cooking with a girl is even better than being cooked for, but maybe that’s just me (and certainly it doesn’t diminish being cooked for).

    Re: making it clear you want him.

    This is the sexiest thing a girl can do. Assuming no major flaws (she’s not fat, obnoxious, or slutty), making it clear you want his nuts is the best way to attract a guy. Making it clear you wants his nuts, and only his nuts, will seal the deal for anyone who isn’t a committed player. Even if you haven’t put out yet, make it clear that you’re just following a personal rule, and make it plausible that you’ve never broken that rule before.

    I’ve been seeing a girl lately who failed at the latter part – she definitely wants my nuts, and seems to want them exclusively, but let slip that the “make him wait” rule is a new thing for her, and I’m the lucky first guy to experience that rule. So, in return, I’ve made it clear this is not a serious thing for me. Price to be paid for everything.

    Re: girls blinking first.

    This article covers the tactics, but not the strategy. Girls won’t “blink” for a guy they aren’t crazy about, meaning all the femininity in the world isn’t going to cut it unless the hypergamy problem is addressed – either girls en masse start lusting after the beta masses, or society at large stops training guys to be betas. Not sure which is less likely; even on an individual level, reprogramming one’s attraction triggers is a daunting task. How can a girl show genuine, 100% interest in worshipping a guy’s cock if she isn’t tingling?

    So, strategic solution that girls can do here and now: bring out his alpha. See a guy with good qualities? A nice, decent beta? Draw him out. Hit on him (flip the script, even though the article says it’s against the natural order), and respond positively to his efforts, lead the conversation in a riskier direction and reward him for trying. You’d be surprised how much boldness you can draw out of a regular guy in just a few minutes of speaking with him (if you don’t believe me, put a few beers in a guy and buy him two lap dances; observe how he behaves around the stripper, in that near-perfect risk-free environment).

    Even if it doesn’t work out in the long run for the two of you, you’ll be doing him a favor when he meets the next chick. Eventually that sort of karma should pay off.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      So, strategic solution that girls can do here and now: bring out his alpha. See a guy with good qualities? A nice, decent beta? Draw him out. Hit on him (flip the script, even though the article says it’s against the natural order), and respond positively to his efforts, lead the conversation in a riskier direction and reward him for trying.

      I wrote this post geared to drawing the beta guy out via emotional escalation. I think it’s a lot to ask a woman to handle both the emotional and sexual escalation. It also makes the woman dominant in the exchange – to a degree that I think will hamper attraction, on both sides.

      I’m all for women stepping up and doing their share, but guys are going to have to meet them halfway. I’ll train the women to escalate emotionally, and leave it to the Game bloggers to deal with the sexual escalation piece.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      Have to say that cooking with a girl is even better than being cooked for, but maybe that’s just me (and certainly it doesn’t diminish being cooked for).

      Cooking together is awesome and it makes a great stay-at-home date. Intimate, reasonably priced and just a short commute to bed ;)

      Making it clear you wants his nuts, and only his nuts, will seal the deal for anyone who isn’t a committed player.

      I’m bolding that – I think this is a revelation for women. Most of us don’t get it – I know I didn’t when I was young.

  • Underdog

    And I’m not surprised about the Asian guy you posted being the most successful. That was also my experience with having an Asian guy as a wingman. Many times it felt like shooting fish in a barrel with him. There’s a really huge opportunity for Asian guys out there if they would just let loose and assert their masculinity.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @Sassy
    “Why thank you sir! I appreciate the compliment.”

    You are quite welcome. This next bit is running against anti-supplication instincts built into my head, but whatever:

    It honestly feels good to even give that compliment. It is extremely rare for me to find a woman I can say is “good.” And it makes a guy feel good to realize there ARE women who live up to their standards.

    Which is why I think a lot of guys like being here. Big selection of that at HUS.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Welcome to guy world my dear (laughs diabolically)…

    Although i will give you an “a” for efffort. I must admit the apron was a nice touch.

    Keep at it; youre coming along…ever so slowly…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Once again ms walsh drops another ether bomb! Excellent piece.

    Speaking of the game bloggers, the following tidbit should help the ladies…

    Its a concept known in game circles as proximity alert system (pas); its when a woman will subconsciously put herself near a guy shes interested in seemingly innocously, so he can “open” her. Its a very powerful principle, although for it to work the guy has to be aware-either naturally game-sensitive, or game-acquired.

    So, lets go back to my example of the raphael siddiq concert out in nyc’s central park; now the ladies definitely were there looking to meet guys, but in my view were going about it all wrong. Instead of merely hanging amongst themselves, they should have dispersed and put themselves innocuously closeby the guys they wanted them to approach. Then they can do all the flirty eye contct stuff etc. Of course this assumes that again, dude is game-aware, and, that he is who said sista wants to begin with.

    But yea, pas is an important principle. The male must initiate the actual physical part; but you can help him along by presenting yourself to him.

    Good lookin out ms walsh! As per usual, great job.

    O.

  • this is Jen

    Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest.

    Projection.

    The only reason I can imagine that women would think that tactic would work on a man is that it works so well on a woman.
    —————————————————————–

    Ain’ that the truth!

  • Rum

    Susan
    You have my permission to aggressively ignore all of your your haters on the interwebs, I think you get things pretty dam well. But you might consider putting out some vids on youtube like GirlWritesWhat. It is an inherently stronger medium.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      Thanks for the suggestion – I have been thinking about expanding to video and possibly podcasting, doing interviews or a “talk show” format. I have never watched her videos – but her name keeps coming up, it sounds like I should check her out.

  • Ian

    Good post, everything in it has been my experience in the mingle, down to the small details of cooking being the best way to a heart, and intensely sexualized pre-sexual relationships. This is the female version of Game, and it’s almost the direct opposite of male Game.

    I’ll add that girl Game has made “pile switch” possible for me. I chased a woman, too flirty for a girlfriend I thought, who withheld (full) sex long enough and took the emotional leap enough times that I eventually switched gears. I’ve also had long-term girlfriends regress to short-term after flaking out, giving reason for doubting their interest and loyalty.

  • FeralEmployee

    @Tom.s, 64

    Not too sure about that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Don’t think most men want a clinger, which is the impression I get from reading the list.

    Is funny given that this list was given by women that are married to the guys that they did this for.
    This behaviors are also a good filter a man that is not looking for commitment would surely bolt out but a man that is open to it and/or a man that has been neglected and ignored by women for a long time, will get attracted and want more. Full of winning for all involved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t think most men want a clinger, which is the impression I get from reading the list.

      Is funny given that this list was given by women that are married to the guys that they did this for.

      I’ve been thinking about this comment by Feral since last night. It seems to me that the whole concept of “Stage 5 clinger” applies only to players. These are the guys who recoil at virgins and say, “you get attached when you bleed.” They don’t want attachment, that’s the real issue. The phrase itself implies a psycho sort of neediness, and indeed I’ve seen guys call girls psycho and clingy for daring to ask for clarification after a hookup. (Of course, the girls should have asked for clarification before the hookup.)

      The suggestions in the post are meant to promote attachment, not dependency.

  • http://consideredcarefully.wordpress.com Dogsquat

    Obsidian said:

    “Its a concept known in game circles as proximity alert system (pas); its when a woman will subconsciously put herself near a guy shes interested in seemingly innocously, so he can “open” her. ”
    ______________________________
    Steel on target.

    Gents reading this –

    What Obsidian said is often the only thing a girl will do to open the door for you. Maybe a couple glances, a hair touch, and sit ten feet away for awhile….

    Not exactly a battery of Kleig lights accompanied by Wagnerian opera piped through megaphones, is it?

    If you don’t have good situational awareness you’ll miss it. It seems to me that women will often turn their backs to you if they’re interested. Counter-intuitive, and your mileage may vary on this point – but after some experimentation I now think of the turned back as a “clear to engage” signal.

  • VD

    So basically I should stop dating other guys before he has given signals that he has stopped seeing other girls? As you say, guys want sexual variety, and given a guy has options, he is not going to say no to other girls if he is not exclusive to one. I’m interpreting this as there being a phase where you do not know if he adds hot girls on facebook, makes a move on girls on nights out and yet you should still show total dedication?

    Yes, precisely. That’s the female risk. He took the male risk of demonstrating interest and risking rejection. Now you have to take the female risk of demonstrating commitment and risking rejection. The thing is, if you do it properly, you won’t ever even have to ask for the commitment. My wife and I got engaged and married without ever discussing if we were boyfriend and girlfriend or agreeing not to see other people. We never had any sort of talk. She demonstrated commitment and made it very clear that she had no interest in anyone else without ever demanding anything from me. A woman who goes all in like that significantly increases her perceived loyalty rating, which is much more important to men than women.

    In contrast, I once dropped contact with a girl for nothing more than taking a phone call from another guy after midnight. I knew him, and knew he wasn’t anything more than a beta orbiter, but the fact that other guys felt comfortable calling her that late caused me to lose interest in her vis-a-vis the other available options. I wasn’t upset, it didn’t bother me, and I didn’t even say anything about it. I didn’t really even think about it, I just called someone else the next day and never got around to returning her calls.

    If you’re no more loyal than the next girl, then you had better be more beautiful, better in bed, and newer than the other options. The problem is, even if you are incredibly beautiful and la tigresse in the boudoir, there will ALWAYS be someone newer. And the more attractive a man is, the more options he always has waiting for him.

  • Desiderius

    Michael,

    Average women are rejecting you because they know they won’t be able to keep you once you figure out your true status. You’re meant to be with that very, very attractive woman but you’ve got a lot of painful work ahead of you catching up on the social skills. The only way to get there is trial and lots of error. Get on it with some urgency.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    This is your best post yet. Pls do everything you can to get this linked – maybe comment in that CNN article?

  • Desiderius

    The general principle here (and it applies for men in the other direction) is that mirroring/the golden rule doesn’t work in mating because of basic gender differences in attraction.

    Academic success being necessarily inversely proportional to social skill development, and professional status having become increasingly predicated on academic success, ignorance of this principle is likely crucial to the lack of assortive mating at the top of the SMP that has thrown the whole thing out of whack.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Yareally, thanks for posting those; I had a chance to look at a few of them. The guys seem colorful, chatty, huggy, etc.; I think we all know someone like this and can imagine inviting him to a cocktail party in order to increase the biodiversity of the social ecosystem and perhaps provide a spectacle.

    I thought Durden in particular seemed rather likable in a D&D player sort of way (I was into role-playing games as a kid and think that they can sometimes provide a useful framework for thinking about the world, so that’s not meant to be an insult) and genuinely interested in sharing knowledge and experience.

    It appears that the general marketing strategy used by these guys is/was to adopt nicknames, show up on discussion boards and post impressive (self-reported?) narratives about sexual conquests, build an audience, and then announce the launching of a blog or website that will be dedicated to pick-up training and the sale of branded pick-up-related products. Is “discussion forum presence—personal site—pick up training services” the general sequence?

    One of the links ultimately took me to a site by a PUA who calls himself “Good Looking Loser.” In between essays regarding seduction techniques, performance-enhancing drugs, and some kind of penis enlargement device, Good Looking Loser has a lengthy write-up of his own experiences with the seminar circuit, boot camps, and so on. I thought it was a fairly balanced commentary despite the rather negative title, but it also appeared like GLL was positioning himself as an anti-PUA PUA from a marketing angle and, in an increasingly crowded market like this one, the best way to make a quick name may be to attack some of the existing “gurus” (I also realize that some of the existing guys will have messy divorces and then try to expose each other as seduction frauds, predatory homosexuals, etc.).

    Anyway, here’s the article in question:

    http://www.goodlookingloser.com/2012/04/09/pua-scam/

    Is this objective reporting or a man with an axe to grind…?

  • Dinkney Pawson

    So basically I should stop dating other guys before he has given signals that he has stopped seeing other girls? As you say, guys want sexual variety, and given a guy has options, he is not going to say no to other girls if he is not exclusive to one. I’m interpreting this as there being a phase where you do not know if he adds hot girls on facebook, makes a move on girls on nights out and yet you should still show total dedication?

    Not total dedication, just focus. Remember you shouldn’t have let the physical relationship get much beyond an enthusiastic kiss goodnight yet.

    You’re indicating that you want him to invest emotionally. If he doesn’t follow up he’s not a keeper.

    Remember Susan’s prime directive: “No sex without exclusivity.”

  • Desiderius

    But since, alas! frail Beauty must decay,
    Curl’d or uncurl’d, since Locks will turn to grey;
    Since painted, or not painted, all shall fade,
    And she who scorns a Man, must die a Maid,
    What then remains but well our Pow’r to use,
    And keep good Humour still whate’er we lose?
    And trust me, dear! good Humour can prevail,
    When Airs, and Flights, and Screams, and Scolding fail.
    Beauties in vain their pretty Eyes may roll;
    Charms strike the Sight, but Merit wins the Soul.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      It’s been a while since we had some lovely poetry, thank you!

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Welcome to guy world my dear (laughs diabolically)…

    Although i will give you an “a” for efffort. I must admit the apron was a nice touch.

    Keep at it; youre coming along…ever so slowly…

    Why did you have to add the phrase in bold to this post? I was fine with everything else you said, but the phrase in bold is a pot shot.

    Implying that I’m slow at learning something, especially something I can’t control whatsoever and that isn’t my fault, is wrong and uncalled for.

    Look, I understand that the last thread became pretty intense between us. Since it’s over now, I’m willing to move on from it if you are.

    I didn’t criticize you in this thread, but you felt the need to drag your attitude from the other thread to this thread.

    Taking cheap shots at me, even though I have stopped taking unprovoked shots at you, isn’t cool man.

    Can’t we just agree to let bygones be bygones and call it a day? I mean that sincerely.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @michael #36:
    I think mikes (hope he wont mind my referring to him as “mike”) comment is a powerful fodder for a post all on its own and in some sense it has been covered in the previous post on dominance; but still it raises all kinds of ticklish questions for the current topic especially given the question of again, the centrality of female choice in human mating.

    Mike is 100% in his observations and assessment-alpha males rarely have to approach women, or failing that, do comparitively little “chasing” as much as lesser males *have to do*. This is fully consistent with what ms walsh herself has said above: some *90% of men will be rejected by women for consideration of mating prospects*. By definition, alpha males comprise a very small cohort; and again as mike has astutely pointed out, they have little problem attracting willing sexual partners, from accross the female physical attractiveness spectrum.

    But this rubs up against the very premise of ms walshs topic-the notion that women should signal a degree of interest, but leave the admittedly heavy lifting of “physical escalation” to the male-which ms walsh promulgates, is “the male role”. Clearly, what mike is saying and what ms walsh is saying are two completely different things.

    Whats going on here?

    Well, here again we see the complexities of female mating choice rear its pretty head-IF a male is “alpha” enough, WOMEN CAN AND WILL APPROACH HIM AND WILL ESCALATE SEXUALLY. And failing that, at the very least, they will be far and away more receptive to an alpha males advances-even if it wasnt at the most opportune time that the woman preferred-and we have evidence of this per buss “evolutionary psychology, 3rd ed.”.

    Simply put, if youre alpha male, you wont have to work that hard to get sexual/mating opportunities. No doubt about it.

    So, mikes question then, in the context of this discussion, is indeed interesting: what, ultimately, are we saying here?

    One thing seems all but certain: for the vast majority of men, they can be certain they will NOT be approached by a woman for mating opportunities. They have to do *something* in order for something to happen.

    Fascinating comment, mike! I for one thank you for posting it.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Re Michael’s comment and Obisidian’s reply:

      Michael commits the exception fallacy. He refers to having seen women drag alphas to bar bathrooms for sex. The percentage of women in the general population who will do that in their lifetimes is infinitesimal.

      The truth is, most women do not play the sexual aggressor. Only 20% max. of women pursue a short-term mating strategy, i.e. casual sex, at any one time.

      It’s very likely that the woman who saw Mike on the platform was attempting to send strong IOIs by staring at him intently and repeatedly. His response was to look away, something she absolutely would have interpreted as rejection. Hence her getting on a different train – by then she felt humiliated.

      Obsidian is right – very few men will be approached. And very few women approach. The promiscuous 20% does their own thing.

      This is fully consistent with what ms walsh herself has said above: some *90% of men will be rejected by women for consideration of mating prospects*.

      No, this is not what I said. I said that even the men with the most sexual success in the market will be rejected on 90% of their approaches.

  • NK

    I am currently depressed. Not in the best place.
    Just before this dark cloud took hold I started talking to a guy (former student at my old uni). We went on a few dates. Then I stood him up for a day time date because I was very down. I told him I was down and that evening he actually came to my house. We kissed that night. I expressed my concern with my current state of depression and he didn’t seem that fazed – thing is I’ve been hermiting, not socialising and full of self loathing. How am I attractive>?
    We’ve since slept together but it was too soon (!) and it was awkward. I’ve now stopped seeing him as I am concerned at his attraction/true intentions – right now I’m a bit of a mess – any healthy relationship can’t develop right now. Thoughts?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @NK

      If you are not in a good place psychologically right now, you should focus on that and tend to your own needs. Once you get your depression treated and alleviated, you can approach dating again with a fresh perspective. Dating can add a lot of emotional turmoil to one’s life, and you don’t need that right now.

      You’re also particularly vulnerable. It may be that he was genuinely concerned and willing to come over to lend support and keep you company. I hate to think he would do something as predatory as hit on a depressed woman for sex. In any case, I agree with your decision to stop seeing him. It would be better for you, and for any potential partner, if you felt good and healthy.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I think it’s a lot to ask a woman to handle both the emotional and sexual escalation. It also makes the woman dominant in the exchange – to a degree that I think will hamper attraction, on both sides. I’m all for women stepping up and doing their share, but guys are going to have to meet them halfway. I’ll train the women to escalate emotionally, and leave it to the Game bloggers to deal with the sexual escalation piece.”

    Yes!! I’m on board with this, 100%, especially the first part.

    Men must learn to escalate sexually, and women do not need to save the soul of a too-timid beta. If she is feeling particularly generous, she can make one bold move (go in for the kiss, a good long one, and when breaking say “I want more”), but only once. If he doesn’t take the hint after that, he is not ready.

    All the emotional and sexual escalation can’t be in one person’s hands, and it can’t be reversed for the vast majority of people.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    If i may, you should have bolded my opening statement:

    “welcome to guy land!”

    Because as i read the background of your cookery situation, it reminded me of the umpteen million times men across history have run afoul of a womans emotional vissicitudes; i just thought is was a very interesting role reversal of sorts. I still do.

    Being a mindreader is no joke-its also deeply unfair. Nobody should have to try to intuit, 24/7, someone elses attitudes feelings and moods.

    But learning social interaction, reading cues and the like, is vital for success in all forms of human interaction-and in order to gain proficiency it takes lots of practice, which does indeed take time.

    Hence my parting shot. Welcome to the club sis. :)

    So, no, i dont think your slow or stupid, which was what you called me btw; i dont take it personal because for one thing, such is a womans way when she gets heated, so i just take it all in stride. Besides, our little dustup was nothing to the full-on breakouts you regularly have here w/the likes of jesus mahoney-right?

    No harm no foul. Was just noting the commonality of experiences.

    A final word to my brothers:

    Fellas, what goes on at the job, stays on the job. If you feeling some kind of way about it, get it out of your system before you get home. Your woman aint your therapist. Thats why we had what used to be called taprooms-so you could go, have a round with the homies and drown your troubles before heading to the shop.

    O.

    Ps: fwiw, if my woman did what you did ms sassy, i would have forgotten about whatever went down at the job pronto; all the better if she was wearing only the apron. Im just sayin.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve now stopped seeing him as I am concerned at his attraction/true intentions – right now I’m a bit of a mess – any healthy relationship can’t develop right now. Thoughts?

    I’m sorry to hear about your state my advice is that you cannot have a healthy relationship till you are healthy yourself. Seek professional help ASAP, that should be your priority right now, IMO.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Besides, our little dustup was nothing to the full-on breakouts you regularly have here w/the likes of jesus mahoney-right?

    That is true.

    Ps: fwiw, if my woman did what you did ms sassy, i would have forgotten about whatever went down at the job pronto; all the better if she was wearing only the apron. Im just sayin.

    Thank you Obsidian. I really do appreciate that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve been thinking about this comment by Feral since last night. It seems to me that the whole concept of “Stage 5 clinger” applies only to players.

    Yeah beta men don’t get clingers, as mentioned before when talking to my hubby and some of his friends they have “tech support shields” a woman that shows real interest is an oasis when you are used to deal with women faking interest to gain something and then start flaking or they give you the LJBF talk, thus the guys with the “clinger shields” more often than not are player or at least have a game thigh enough that they really don’t want any woman to do anything worth it of commitment till they decide themselves they want to commit to someone. Hence their dislike of this behaviours, again great filter in the repertoire. Problem is some women develop a “I want THAT guy to commit” instead of “I want the RIGHT one to commit” another important lesson on dating hell to learn from women.
    Men are not like trying to get a a new dress in which you fall in love with a particular one and do whatever it takes, get the money, lose or gain weight…. to fit in it: Dress conquered! They are more like applying to colleges you try to find and select the ones you like but in the end only the ones that are a good match for you and them let you in, they also have a choice on this and you must never forget that, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Problem is some women develop a “I want THAT guy to commit” instead of “I want the RIGHT one to commit” another important lesson on dating hell to learn from women.

      Very true. And since they invariably focus on the guys with the most options, they probably do deserve the nickname. One thing that I’ve seen a few times has really surprised me – a young woman is guilty of truly psycho behavior, but the guy rewards her for it. One example that comes to mind is a girl learning that her ex-bf was seeing someone new. She called him 60 times in one evening, lay in wait outside his apartment, yelled at him publicly repeatedly – until he took her back. And he did – he dumped the new girl and went back to the ex. IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?

  • Ramble

    The general principle here (and it applies for men in the other direction) is that mirroring/the golden rule doesn’t work in mating because of basic gender differences in attraction.

    I have said it before and I will keep saying it: Our experiences are not analogous.

  • Todd

    I love this post. I wish more women got the whole idea that a) that a woman has to do the escalation because a guy has figured out what level you are to him, and it’s up to you to either prove him right or wrong and b) it’s this escalation that shows whether or not you’re the right fit for a person. A woman who thinks it’s a guy’s job to do all of the work is just going to be unhappy and frustrated. On the flip side, sometimes what you have to offer a dude isn’t what he’s looking for. It doesn’t make him a bad person per se as much as he’s just bad for you. Men seem to be able, moreso than women, to distinguish better between someone being bad for them as opposed to just plain bad. I’m not quite sure why that is.

    @RWC
    Can I say peach cheesecake sounds slamming? Seriously though, I’m not sure I’d go there with someone I’d had a relationship with. I’d ask what’s going on in your life now, but going back there seems a touch painful for me.

    @Obsidian
    I see you like to go hard in the paint when it comes to women. Not just this post, but others on HUS as well. Did you always have that mindset? Did it develop? I’m intrigued by it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Todd

      Men seem to be able, moreso than women, to distinguish better between someone being bad for them as opposed to just plain bad. I’m not quite sure why that is.

      We’re more romantic in an unrealistic way, more inclined to play savior, and have bigger, fatter hamsters. Also, I think guys have a lot more practice with rejection. You’re better able to drive on without analyzing every rejection to death, which is what we do.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Thanks for quoting me in this post, Susan!

    Emotional escalation will work to filter in relationship-oriented men, but not so well with men who don’t want or look for relationships. Therefore, you will definitely hear from guys who have no intention of LTRs on your blog who say the advice is bad. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Emotional escalation will work to filter in relationship-oriented men, but not so well with men who don’t want or look for relationships.

      That is useful in itself. If the caring and nurturing behaviors are not generating an equal emotional response, that guy is a dead end. I’m often amazed at how long women can go with zero positive reinforcement. It’s as if they just can’t let go of the challenge. They’d be better off finding challenge in a game and keeping real life sane.

  • Alias

    Anacaona:
    “Problem is some women develop a “I want THAT guy to commit” instead of “I want the RIGHT one to commit” another important lesson on dating hell to learn from women.
    Men are not like trying to get a a new dress in which you fall in love with a particular one and do whatever it takes, get the money, lose or gain weight…. to fit in it: Dress conquered! They are more like applying to colleges you try to find and select the ones you like but in the end only the ones that are a good match for you and them let you in, they also have a choice on this and you must never forget that”
    ————

    This was the problem back in the post about Brady and Grace, where the guys kept dwelling on “but, he’s not a cad!” and I stated that it’s only ONE part of the equation. Another part has to be “is he into ME?”

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Todd
    “Can I say peach cheesecake sounds slamming? Seriously though, I’m not sure I’d go there with someone I’d had a relationship with. I’d ask what’s going on in your life now, but going back there seems a touch painful for me.”

    It looks like I unintentionally opened a can of worms by articulating the context of the examples I gave. The context was my way of explaining in advance why I am not with those guys today. My intent was to illustrate the point about the food thing (a perfect set-up isn’t always the ingredient to real impact). You and O make vald points about the unhealthiness of returning to past loves, which I think warrants its own discussion.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    Why would a guy even go there?

    Perhaps it’s a fear of ending up alone?

    I can only imagine that some guys (uh, some people, actually) are so afraid of ending up with no one that they won’t take any chances. As psycho as that ex seemed, at that moment she was his “sure thing.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      As psycho as that ex seemed, at that moment she was his “sure thing.”

      That must be it. Like I said, in some extreme way, she was actually following the advice in this post! She went all in and refused to give up. I imagine that could be very reaffirming for a guy.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Fantastic review, if I do say so, of Crabb’s “Men, Women; Enjoying the Difference” on Amazon. He’s a conservative Christian counselor, so his work will make your teeth hurt. However, he’s a good writer, so contradicting him will take some intellectual exercise.
    One of his big things is how a woman, through trust and appreciation, can make her man bigger–a good deal of detail here–almost as if it’s magical, although of course it isn’t. Better with the family,more leadership, better in bed, better as a citizen, more competent, etc.
    She can, on the other hand, make him into a feckless, sullen punk sitting on the sofa, shrugging and doing nasty things in private.
    This issue is discussed glancingly by other practitioners, but in great detail in his book.
    Sort of like bringing out–or ruining–his alpha.
    Up to her.
    Worth, imo, reading the book.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Richard Aubrey

      Thanks for that title – I’ve requested it.

  • Desiderius

    @Susan

    “It’s been a while since we had some lovely poetry, thank you!”

    You crazy Catholics could always turn a phrase.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @NK

    If you are depressed, do not get involved with the opposite sex. It will most likely fuck you up hardcore. Full disclosure: I’ve read that casual sex encounters will actually improve the moods of the depressed, but I don’t put enough stock into that to change my advice.

    Speaking as a guy who was depressed for a lonnnngggg time:

    Get professional help. All the guys will still be there later.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    I feel a bit of deja vu here lol. Yes its true even top level masters of game get shotdown a lot-but the point is made-as a guy you can expect to get shotdown a heck of a lot more than you will score. What it all boils down to is, for a guy, getting some, be that stand alone or as a prelude to something longterm, is a longshot. So for me wht we’re talking about is a distinction w/o much of a difference: either way if youre a guy, odds are you’re empty handed. Just the nature of the beast.

    That leads me to my next point: women dont just approach alphas for short term sex; they can approach them for ltrs too. I know that doesnt comport with your overall message but ive seen it happen more than many will admit and im sure im not alone. Simply put being an alpha male gives one increased chances at mating, be that short or longterm. Even buss says as much in his “evolutionary psychology, 3rd ed.” on page 360 where he talks about the advantages of status striving for men. There are other examples.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      That leads me to my next point: women dont just approach alphas for short term sex; they can approach them for ltrs too. I know that doesnt comport with your overall message but ive seen it happen more than many will admit and im sure im not alone

      I agree with you. Buss says that women engage in short-term mating specifically to test out sexual compatibility with long-term prospects. Obviously, they face the risk of being relegated to the short-term pile by the male, but that doesn’t stop women from trying.

      Buss also says that there are two conditions that women reject even for short-term mating, precisely because they are thinking long-term in most cases:

      1. The male is in a committed relationship.

      2. A history of male promiscuity.

      Now, we both know that especially on the second point, men will cry to the heavens that women adore a guy who’s been in many women, but that is not what the evo psychs say about the matter, and my own observations confirm theirs. The exception being promiscuous women, who employ a different relative metric.

  • Todd

    @Susan Walsh

    That is useful in itself. If the caring and nurturing behaviors are not generating an equal emotional response, that guy is a dead end. I’m often amazed at how long women can go with zero positive reinforcement. It’s as if they just can’t let go of the challenge. They’d be better off finding challenge in a game and keeping real life sane.

    Exactly! I wonder if women like that secretly want to live in a romantic comedy or a romance novel. Do you realize how insane that would be in real life? Heck, don’t they realize how creepy that would be long-term?

    But you are right. Very few women are just told straight no often enough. Most breakups are because of the woman or just mutual. Even when a guy wants to leave, he’ll either just drift away or do something that’ll make a girl want to leave.

  • PeppermintPanda

    Susan,

    While I admit I am probably the exception, I do get women who regularly pursue me; and I’m (somewhat) often approached by women.

    I’m a fit, above average looking man in my early 30s with no overt overcompensation (ie. I don’t think I’m Vin Diesel) with a positive attitude and a good sense of humour. While it is rarely high SMV women who approach, and they are never overtly sexual, about once a week a woman will try to “chat me up” (to use british slang), and about once every 4 to 6 weeks I will get asked out by a woman.

    This used to happen when I was younger too, but at the time I was naive enough to believe that a woman randomly decided to run on the treadmill beside me (or randomly choose the seat next to me) and start talking to a guy she never met before.

    I would say that women are far more subtle about it, and there is always a level of plausible deniability of their approach, but they’re willing to approach men and “open” the conversation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Peppermint Panda

      Thanks for sharing your experience. If I may, I’m curious how you feel about these approaches. The fact that you said they are rarely high SMV, while you clearly are, makes me think they are generally not successful in capturing your interest. I am also surprised that women of average looks would be so assertive – unless they’re promiscuous and accustomed to hitting on guys a couple of steps up for the short-term validation. Do you have a sense of that? Do they seem to be looking for a husband or a hookup?

  • PeppermintPanda

    Susan,

    The more attention I pay to relationship dynamics in my own life and the lives of others the more aware I am of women approaching men; and I think it happens far more often than most people would acknowledge.

    If I were to put a term to a female approach I would call it “friend making” and usually the end goal would be to eliminate barriers and discomfort for the man to make a move. Over time I noticed that efforts made by me to flirt were always recrprocated, and women began flirting an unusual portion of the time, which made me certain that this is an interest based approach.

    I’m also very confident that these women are looking for something long term; but that could be specific to me.

    In general, I’m glad for the approach but I rarely pursue these women. I would imagine women have a similar experience, but within the first 5 minutes of talking most women will give you a reason why not to date them. Often it is personality clashes, but other times they talk about something that is a gigantic red-flag.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Purely anecdotal, but I believe women in the SMP have become far more aggressive (as an aggregate score; I’m sure there are many local/cultural variations) over the last 10 years or so. The interest cues are more blatant, a woman will ask the guy out by saying “so why don’t you ask me out?”, etc.

    Yes, the man may ultimately have the responsibility to formally suggest the time and place of the occasion, but the conditions in which this is done are far more favorable to him. To use the potentially inflammatory metaphor of trigger weights on a rifle: the modern SMP seems to have a double set trigger: the first trigger, which has the greater weight, sets the action (and is managed or at least heavily subsidized by the woman); the second or “hair-trigger” has very low breaking weight and is used to actually fire the round (the man may still be responsible for this, but even that is debatable).

    Once the hook-up mechanism actually begins, the results can be almost formulaic: girls will lead the physical escalation dance right up to the practical point of no return, then briefly express something to the effect that “they *never* do this on the 1st/2nd date” (cue affectionate, understanding response from the man to provide proper reassurances), and then will seamlessly continue with the alpha-huntress plan.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but it just seems far more choreographed and strategic than it used to, as if women are feeling more confident and assertive in all areas of life and reluctant to concede a possible competitive edge to other females in any arena. It’s become “Who Dares, Wins” in sexual manifestation.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Bastiat
    “Not to put too fine a point on it, but it just seems far more choreographed and strategic than it used to, as if women are feeling more confident and assertive in all areas of life and reluctant to concede a possible competitive edge to other females in any arena. It’s become “Who Dares, Wins” in sexual manifestation.”

    This looks like a woman’s attempt to manufacture desirability. It pushes things past just presenting lures (looking presentable, being socially engaging, etc.) and into coaxing the follow-through. I think these ladies operate from a mind set that there is no reason why the man of interest should not be attracted to her (entitlement).

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Royale, I think you are absolutely right. The confidence level is very high and the feeling is that a man who presents scarce qualities X, Y, Z can be objectified in much the same way that a high GPA, corner office, corporate takeover target, or suite of Hermes bags should be pursued with an assertive, somewhat calculating and impatient, can-do attitude.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat, @Royale

      Your comments about female aggression and entitlement make sense and ring true for me as well. It appears to be a case of the female escalating sexually while not fostering any kind of emotional connection. Indeed, the only “feeling” is the woman’s brief need for reassurance and the man’s willingness to give it. I’m sure those women believe they are taking a big risk when they behave that way – and they probably do get shot down quite a bit, even for casual sex. (While I don’t doubt the claim that a woman walking into a bar can get laid by yelling that she wants to, she is not likely to attract the man of her choice this way.) The problem is, they’re taking the wrong short-term risk, and a very big long-term risk. It’s hard to imagine that many productive relationships begin this way.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?

    You are assuming he is not a little crazy himself IME crazy attracts crazy.

    Exactly! I wonder if women like that secretly want to live in a romantic comedy or a romance novel.

    Again this, I know everybody most be sick of my defense of romance novels and its fans but I really think this is growing to “porn turns men into pervert” levels of disinformation.
    Women that do this to themselves have poor reading skills, 90% of the romance heroine’s fall into the trope through not making or will of their own. Using Pride and Prejudice, there is this moment when Mr Collins asked Lizzy hand in marriage and she says no and then he declares he won’t give up because many times women reject men they want to accept and do later on. Elizabeth tells him that she is not like that and then that is what happens with Mr Darcy she rejects him first and then accepts his hand in marriage later on. Many people think that Austen was deliberately being ironic. But I think she was explaining the trope a woman that rejects a man for a particular deal breaker if the man is clever and fixes it will get a second chance. If Mr Darcy would had done another marriage proposal without becoming more humble and gentleman like with her poor relatives and without showing his level of interest by defying his annoying aunt (and defacto mother in law Lady Catherine) and helping her stupid sister Lydia she would had said no again, probably even more irritated by the whole thing. Women that want to find their Mr Darcy are not understanding the trope at all, don’t blame the novels, blame the reader, YMMV.

  • Joe

    @Anacaona, that was an amazing defense of Romance Novels ™. But seriously, do you really want to compare great literature like Jane Austen’s with the trash that’s out there in the book stores and supermarket shelves?

    I admire your writing and what you’ve said here, but the analogy between (soft) porn for men and romance novels for women is just too strong in my mind. They serve the same purpose – self gratification. They’re essentially harmless in moderation, but they certainly don’t bring any credit to the reader.

    I don’t think it’s necessary to beat anyone over the head (rhetorically speaking!) for reading the stuff, either porn for men or romance novels for women. But neither version can be defended like that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    But seriously, do you really want to compare great literature like Jane Austen’s with the trash that’s out there in the book stores and supermarket shelves?

    I’m actually pretty democratic about this things. A trope is a trope some authors have a lot more to add than that to the work and some others just that.

    They serve the same purpose – self gratification. They’re essentially harmless in moderation, but they certainly don’t bring any credit to the reader.

    I really hate the idea that you read to get credit of show how smart or accomplished you are. I read because I love it even if I was the last women on Earth I will read. My personal rule is to read everything that I can pass the first page of. I don’t pick then randomly I usually read that the book is about in the contra cover but if after picking my interest it could be a Nobel, a Pulitzer or a trashy novel on the airport. If you got me on the first page you got yourself a reader, YMMV.
    I also quite like porn BTW.

  • sweetsue

    @Chris_in_CA

    Agreed. It’s okay to say no – IF you’ve made it clear that you do find him desirable, and want to continue the escalation. Otherwise, well, you’re just stringing him along.
    “If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.”
    And how’s he supposed to know that’s actually true? Answer: He can’t. There’s no way he can be sure. So he’ll be cautious–and he has every right to be. Sorry, harsh truth.
    He can see if her actions match her words – does she flirt openly and obviously with other men in front of him – just by example – if her actions smack of game playing or uncertainty then the words may not be the truth or the whole story.

    @Mule Chewing Briars June 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    Precisely. It’s one of the most stubborn myths that women cling to.
    And it is equally baffling to men why entertaining another woman’s flirtations in front of your wife or girlfriend will make her want to rip your clothes off later that night.
    The latter depends on the wife or the gf. A confident wife or gf would ignore it and not react and certainly not reward the man for behavior she does not appreciate.
    @Michael
    She clearly saw you were not interest. You clearly were sending not interested signals and since she is smart enough to know there are more fish in the sea. A not interested vibe makes a person with self respect go oh well no harm no foul on to the next. She knew there are other men who will or would find her attractive so there is no need to make a move on someone clearly not interested.

    The flaw in your logic is that the women think the average man is the alpha. Also if she is dressed “feminine” she is not looking to be the aggressor or approach – she will send out signals and if someone responds she may opt to respond – she is seeking to draw him in not role reverse and chase. She is confident enough not to chase.

    The fact that you thought your Dad’s “alphaness” would rub off on you put you in the one down position – your actions and lack of response to signals screamed a lack of self confidence. Compared and contrasted to your Dad that lack of confidence was even more apparent.

    O said it best in the last paragraph of his post #75 – feminine women send signals it is up to the guy to respond in order for the signals to continue so he can move forward. No response means no interest and a feminine woman moves on.

  • Mireille

    Susan,

    I love that post! I actually agree with everything. One of my goals this summer is to improve my cooking, just because I want to invite friends to fancier dinners at home.
    I must admit if you had told me that 7 years ago, I would replied something snarky. I supposed I’m a late bloomer, I wasn’t interested in men, in pleasing them and feminity wasn’t seen as productive or ambitious so it went with the bath water. Now, that all these things are aligned, it is much harder to achieve finding a man that wants to commit. I went to a wedding today and it was wonderful seeing two people looking at each other and feeling safe. This is what I want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mireille

      . I supposed I’m a late bloomer, I wasn’t interested in men, in pleasing them and feminity wasn’t seen as productive or ambitious so it went with the bath water. Now, that all these things are aligned, it is much harder to achieve finding a man that wants to commit. I went to a wedding today and it was wonderful seeing two people looking at each other and feeling safe. This is what I want.

      Eh, it’s not ever easy. But you’re right, it does get more difficult for women as they hit 30 or so. Still, you’ve figured out what you want, and you recognize what it is going to take. That’s a huge step. You may want to focus on men 5 years or so older than you are. Yes, I know many of them are already taken, but not all.

  • Mireille

    Btw, Michael, you’re a loser, like the king of losers! You dad was basically playing unvoluntary wingman for you and you were still unable to grab that opportunity by the neck and get a chat going with that woman. You were probably right because technically your father was the one that displayed “alphaness” through mastery and probably assumed prestige so he should be the one bagging her; she probably looked at you as the younger option ( which I sometimes do, an awesome guy is very likely to know of, or be surrounded by other awesome guys, be them sons, brothers or friends). In short, you failed, and you felt entitled. If that girl had made a move it would have been toward your father. How I know that you’re definitely an omega, and an unpleasant one also? You adopted a very feminine attitude in that situation, not attractive at all for a woman who VISIBLY responded to mastery/prestige in front of you. It’s like me moaning why a guy doesn’t pick me while I’m standing next to a blond bimbo when I’m at best a 6. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?

  • smfish

    Little help here. Hope it is not off topic too much. I was giving some professional advice on line (in an area of my expertise) and a woman commented, then asked to email me personally. We corresponded about professional issues for a while then she wanted to meet me. She was nice, but I told her that I was not interested in a LTR but I liked her as a friend. She keeps wanting to escalate things to a sexual nature, which I have so far refused. I have no idea what the next 10 years will hold for me, so I do not feel I can give a commitment to her or anyone. Big transition time for me, which may not include her. I have told her this and it does not seem to discourage her. How much responsibility do I have for her feelings? I would not mind being intimate with her since it has been almost 10 years, but not if it means hurting her in the long term.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Smfish

      How much responsibility do I have for her feelings? I would not mind being intimate with her since it has been almost 10 years, but not if it means hurting her in the long term.

      If I understand you correctly, you have made it clear to this woman that you have no romantic intentions toward her whatsoever, that you are not prepared to commit to anyone in any way, but she still wants to have sex with you.

      I say go for it with a clear conscience. You have been 100% honest, and the responsibility for any future hurt feelings lies with her. OTOH, if you feel that she’ll become needy and dependent and generally bring a ton of drama, it might not be worth it.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    While you do make a point about the how you call it, “manwhore” can be seen as problematic by women, still the concept of preselection is very powerful. Ive taled about the raphael siddiq concert i attended in central park in nyc; while there, i was blatantly hit on by an admittedly very attractive sista, right in the presence of ms brown sugah, complete with displays of her thinly veiled naughty bits courtesy of her thong which was quite visible as a result of her sheer bohemian style summer dress. Nor is the first time this has happened-more like upwards of a dozen times with ms brown sugah alone. Its happened with other ladies from my past as well.

    I think the quality of the woman/women have a role to play here; “manwhore” to my mind/ear, implies a lack of discrimination insofar as sexual partners are concerned; whereas preselection, at least in the sense i am discussing, *can* suggest that women are interested in a man because he has proven to be able to attract (and retain) an at least somewhat high status mate.

    In ny event preseleftion is held by gamesmen to be among if not the most powerful of principles because its the hardest to fake; and women are very attuned to any signs of deception, which is something else buss talks about in both his books.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      I agree completely – preselection and male promiscuity are not at all the same thing. I do think a lot of guys merge the two, assuming that the latter implies the former. In reality, men rack up numbers by getting with women who go in for casual sex, and we know they have certain traits and issues. They may be hot, but they also tend to be a hot mess. To female observers, this implies a lack of discernment, and certainly self-discipline, on the part of the male.

      Women are far more likely to be attracted to the man out and about with his attractive woman, as you saw at the concert.

      Again, players tend to commit the exception fallacy. While they admit they get shot down by 9 out of 10 women, they never stop to consider whether the 9 found them repellent precisely because of their slutty MO or their asshole vibe. I have no problem with that, if they’re happy with the results they’re getting with the one who goes for it. Whatever works. But I do think it’s extremely inaccurate to extrapolate about female preferences from that. That’s why studies, flawed as they are, are necessary and helpful – they at least can measure attitudes, if not actual behavior, among a random sample of women, rather than a group of women with certain traits in common.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @sweetsue @mierelle re: michael
    I think its both a bit harsh and a bit presumptive on both your parts about mikes situation as we are only looking at this situation through a keyhole instead of a door; as any gamesmen would know there are often many nuances and the like that have to be taken into account. Mikes question was legitimate because regardless as to how his personal situation went down it is a fact that women can and will approach and physically escalate; it happens all the time. In most cases this is because the man in question is unquestionably an alpha male. Beating up on mike isnt going to change that fact.

    O.

  • Michael

    ”VISIBLY responded to mastery/prestige in front of you. It’s like me moaning why a guy doesn’t pick me while I’m standing next to a blond bimbo when I’m at best a 6. Doesn’t make any sense, does it?”

    It does. Because someone else is still going to pick you up. Seems like, in that scenario, the guy would have to have tight game or great height/looks to be able to choose between you and the hot bimbo blonde girl. But you’ll still get pick-up by some other guy, maybe not as good as the one you had your eyes on.

    ”How I know that you’re definitely an omega, and an unpleasant one also? You adopted a very feminine attitude in that situation, ”

    What does a very feminine attitude have anything to do with it? I am very youthful, lean, with very feminine facial features. My body structure is thin, not skinny-muscular; if she was attracted to my physical characteristics and these are feminine, wouldn’t she also be attracted to a feminine personality?

    A month or so ago I had a long, thick beard, I was also pissed off as hell because I had broken both my arms and couldn’t ahem, alleviate myself. It was around the end of the month, so many women were ovulating. I had more than a few, very attractive women and youngish, rearrange their clothes while staring at me, putting themselves in front of me, leaving the bus/train/whatever and giving me lingering looks.

    What gives? Is it the attitude, the facial hair the feminine appearance in itself or a combination of bad boy potential with a feminine contrast? or what? That makes these women attracted to me?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It was around the end of the month, so many women were ovulating

      Oy. Were you daydreaming during sex ed?

  • Michael

    ”She clearly saw you were not interest. You clearly were sending not interested signals and since she is smart enough to know there are more fish in the sea. ”

    Actually, I was attracted to her, lol. She was pretty much my ideal woman. Natural blonde, shortish, skinny but not so skinny that her bones were showing, and she had very refined facial features, as if she was still in her mid-teens but I saw her fidget with her driver’s license(18 minimum, over here).

    I admit that I was intimidated. I hang out too much with dudes who are over 6 feet tall, with the faces of Brad Pitt, perfect teeth etc. I’m not used to average women noticing my existence let alone a woman who was above average in every area of female beauty.

    My father is a former AirForce pilot. We spend our weekends hanging out with military people and I am far more at ease with these guys who are far more bulky than me and taller too. I notice that the young women who happen to come across(major college near the military base we hang out at) prolong their stares.

    Maybe, by being near Alpha men, I am not emotionally guarded or something, I’m able to be ”myself” and that could be attractive to young women. I don’t need game or whatever with women above the age of 30, but I’m not yet interested in them; I want to have some fun first;whereas women aged 18-25, I seem to always fck it up because I enter defensive mode, LOL.

  • VD

    One thing that I’ve seen a few times has really surprised me – a young woman is guilty of truly psycho behavior, but the guy rewards her for it. One example that comes to mind is a girl learning that her ex-bf was seeing someone new. She called him 60 times in one evening, lay in wait outside his apartment, yelled at him publicly repeatedly – until he took her back. And he did – he dumped the new girl and went back to the ex. IDK, is this some bizarre form of “total emotional commitment” on her part? Why would a guy even go there?

    Why does this surprise you in the slightest? This very post concerns the inordinate value men place on loyalty and emotional interest. The fact that she went to such extremes significantly raised her value in her ex-boyfriend’s eyes, so much so that he got rid of the new girl. It seems that few here are capable of drawing the logically obvious conclusion: since non-alpha men so readily exhibit “psycho” behaviors, they will tend to be receptive to the very “psycho” behaviors that women fear and alphas find irritating. Just because you don’t want to get twenty drunken pledges of undying loyalty on your phone doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t find it attractive. Displays of loyalty won’t work on women because they don’t find loyalty attractive. They won’t work on alphas because they don’t want relationships and therefore place little value on loyalty. But they will be very effective when directed towards commitment-friendly men.

    In general, women would do much better to assume that men hate what they find attractive and find attractive what they hate than to assume men share their tastes. And the same goes for men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      The fact that she went to such extremes significantly raised her value in her ex-boyfriend’s eyes, so much so that he got rid of the new girl.

      I do get that, but it’s a bit like when a couple starts having fights just to get to the makeup sex. Once things are that out of control, I think it’s very, very difficult to get back to equilibrium. In fact, the couple in this case did break up again and for good a short while later. I appreciate that her loyalty was compelling, I guess I’m just surprised a guy with a new girl already lined up would go in for the drama.

      since non-alpha men so readily exhibit “psycho” behaviors, they will tend to be receptive to the very “psycho” behaviors that women fear and alphas find irritating.

      Can you elaborate on this? It’s rare to hear men labeled psycho – what kinds of behaviors are you referring to?

      In general, women would do much better to assume that men hate what they find attractive and find attractive what they hate than to assume men share their tastes. And the same goes for men.

      Cosign.

  • Todd

    @Obsidian

    I see where you’re getting at with the preselection thing. At the same time, there can be too much of a good thing. A guy with his girl is definitely preselected. A guy who has slept with half the people in that girls circle though is someone who a) is desperate for sex and b) chooses women who don’t mind getting a small piece of a guy because they don’t have much to offer a dude. It’s somewhat similar to the guy who goes out with too many unattractive women. At some point you have to wonder what’s up with the guy if that’s *all* he’s pulling.

  • Kathy

    “You have my permission to aggressively ignore all of your your haters on the interwebs, I think you get things pretty dam well”

    Yep! Rum is right.

    Susan, you have copped a lot of flak.. Mostly from people who haven’t even read what you have said.. Nor the comments from regular readers.

    This is a good post!

    You are making an effort to help women and men to get together for the long haul.

    You have never been in the business of slagging off other bloggers..
    You are focused on your mission..

    Which is more than can be said for other(so called christian) bloggers who just want to denigrate and put others down who do not agree with them.

    A good example of your decency and sense of fairplay, was when you allowed yrpua to express his views as a pua with links as well, even when you told him that you did not agree with what he espoused.. Not once did you denigrate him or cast aspersions on his character.

    Now can you imagine the same courtesy extended on a so called christian blog like ______’s?’(still don’t know what that bloke stands for, seems almost ashamed of his Christianity)

    There are some people who thrive on pointing out the speck in other peoples eyes whilst ignoring the beam in their own.

    To sum up, I can see how you are helping young people to eschew promiscuity in place of faithfull monogomous marriage.

    Others on the other hand just want to get down and dirty, and don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of making a difference, though their over inflated egos would suggest that they think otherwise.

    You have been crystal clear in your motives..

    It’s a damn shame that these fools have not read your posts and copious comments.

    I have. And I know that you are the real thing! :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thanks for the support, Kathy! I plan to keep doing what I’m doing. I’ve realized that if you change some nouns around, those blogs are indistinguishable from feministing and Pandagon. It’s the exact same mentality at work.

      With apologies to the Bard:

      ..A poor player
      That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
      And then is heard no more: it is a tale
      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
      Signifying nothing.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    It was around the end of the month, so many women were ovulating

    Oy. Were you daydreaming during sex ed?

    Perhaps I’m reaching, but I think he’s in college. Women in the dorms do seem to synchronize ovulation.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @131 Mireille

    Watch it with the feelings of superiority. You may be just as damaged as any guy who is still single in his thirties.

    You don’t think you’re damaged? He may not either. Both of you have learned behaviors that you may need to unlearn.

  • VD

    Can you elaborate on this? It’s rare to hear men labeled psycho – what kinds of behaviors are you referring to?

    For “psycho”, substitute “stalker” and “creep”. If a man is at all prone to behaving in a way that will get him labled “stalkery” and “creepy”, then that sort of behavior will likely win him over. You understand I’m not talking about the real stalkers, but rather, the middle- and lower-rank guys whose indicators of interest make the objects of their interest uncomfortable.

    It’s for the same reason that I often erroneously thought I was doing people a favor by not bothering them, because I like to be left alone. We all make mistakes by assuming other people want what we want. The Golden Rule is a heuristic, not a reliable rule for optimal human behavior. But we can usefully observe human behavior and derive useful information about what might appeal to the behaving human.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      That makes sense. I didn’t even think of the creepy stalker vibe. As you say, that will definitely not work for men!

      I do think that women reward loyalty, but it’s not a factor in sexual attraction. It’s critically important for long-term mating, obviously.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh #121:

    Buss also mentions mate poaching as a mating strategy, which is true for both sexes, so we have to keep that in mind here; indeed, this is whats going on in terms of preselection when you really think about it.

    O.

  • Michael

    ”Oy. Were you daydreaming during sex ed?”

    I was smoking weed during sex education, lol . I figured that, since only Alpha males and bad boys get all of the sex, even from the good girls, what would be the point of putting up with that class. That’s like a deaf man found in Spanish class lol. I also skipped Physical Education to smoke weed because most of the girls had to use those tiny, skin-fit spandex pants.

    Yes, I’m in college. I think the mating thing with the Alpha boys and the PUA’s take place more often during the later part of the month because the most of the girls in x female group(s) tend to be more sexual at the same time, during the end of the month.

  • Michael

    ”since non-alpha men so readily exhibit “psycho” behaviors, they will tend to be receptive to the very “psycho” behaviors that women fear and alphas find irritating.”

    I don’t understand that. What psycho behaviors – you mean a contradiction to the behaviors of the Alpha male?

    The Alpha male is more likely to approach because he has more Testosterone than the average man, but the Alpha male has more of a reason to approach a woman since the ownership of physical traits deemed attractive by women(height, muscles, facial symmetric, great teeth etc) gives him a major advantage over the average man.

    Could it be that women are also expecting the average male to approach them, as they’re always being asked out/flirted with/game’d by the Pua and by the Alpha male and thus, the women find it highly unnatural for a man, in this case the beta male, to be in his own private place and choosing to not approach women?

    I know I’ve given the creepy vibe before, but I’m not sure if the woman perceived it as creepy because of my quick reaction to avoid her look as she noticed me looking at her, or if it was the lack of masculine characteristics.

    I don’t really stare at women or invade their spaces . I mostly avoid their gaze and if they try to sell me something or give me a pamphlet or something, I usually pretend to not be there, but that has more to do with a lack of ”now I do this and that” like I’m the recipient of in a game like Max Payne 3 than in a lack of interest in chatting up the women.

    On the other hand, I’ve been to places, like high-end shops, not looking like I’m wealthy, and the young women would rather approach me than the 6’3” 20 year old who looks like Cristiano Ronaldo and dresses as good.

    I notice a lot of subtle staring(they’re looking at me from the corner of their eye), they pass so near me, I can smell their necks. They crouch low to fix something that doesn’t need to get fixed, giving me a view to their underwear, lol.

    It could be that I stink. I take a bath every day of the week, and I put deodorizer in great amounts. I brush my teeth and I shave my face, rather presentable, I guess. I give the impression of having a job, i.e, I’m not like many of the young men my age, without a job. The clothes I wear are rather plain, my shoes are sturdy but nothing to admire. My body posture is slouched, as I got used to it while growing up. Nothing in me really screams ”Alpha” or ”Bad Boy.”

    It could be that a large portion of the young women who are very feminine are into dudes who skinny and feminine-looking. Heck do I know.

    I just don’t understand why the women don’t approach me if they are attracted to me. I do remember one instance that was the closest I’ve ever gotten to being approached by a woman.

    A friend of mine invited me to go window-shopping with him. This guy is exotic. Half- Brazilian, Half Italian. He has the smoothness of the Italian dude and the looks and the height of the Brazilian man. 6’5”, 4 days a week in the gym. Cash in the bank, his own house, the works. At the age of 21. Family money. And I mean money. Gold mines and stuff.

    We enter a shoe store. This very pretty half-white half-black young woman was the clerk. My buddy, as soon as we enter the shop brushes his elbow against my neck to look at the girl. I ignore him. He pulls me to a more secluded area of the shop and tells me that the girl was checking me out.

    Of course I didn’t believe him. Every employee in that shop was top model looks, even the older women in their 40′s.

    So, I don’t really pay attention to what he was saying to me, ” go talk to the girl. She’s pretending to be playing with the books, but she’s looking at you.”

    ”Nah, dude. Look at her. She’s easily 5’11” with flat shoes, I’m only 5’8”.

    Past being annoyed by my friend, we finally pick an item and head to the clerk, the girl. She was blubbering, getting flushed, staring at me, looking at the ground. She got the prices wrong. When we were leaving, we passed the exit door, but the alarm went off; the girl had forgotten to remove the security thing from the shoes and she came at us giggly running, smiling and staring at the ground.

    She apologized, I just froze there because I really didn’t know how to react to all of that, and we left.

    Sure made me wonder what the hell is wrong with me. Or maybe the women really have bad sight LOL!

  • VD

    I just don’t understand why the women don’t approach me if they are attracted to me. I do remember one instance that was the closest I’ve ever gotten to being approached by a woman.

    Because women don’t approach non-Alphas. Women only approach men to whom they are both attracted and consider to be of higher socio-sexual rank than they are. But they send indicators of interest to men they find potentially attractive whose socio-sexual rank they consider indeterminate. Your problem is that you are failing every test and demonstrating to them that you are of insufficient rank to merit their continued attention. If you directly approach the women as soon as they send you these various indicators of interest, you will likely find your fortune considerably improving.

  • Mireille

    Thanks VD, well said.
    Michael, we are reading what you’re saying and drawing conclusion from it. It has nothing to do with you being damaged or a sense of superiority, your lack of strategy and even effort is what is hurting you. You hang out with a lot of alphas and therefore assume that since women do approach them, they will approach you just as well, that is simply not true (for men and women alike). Those wingmen should help you get access to alot of women, however it is not their role to do delivery. You have stand out and seal on your own. If you remove yourself out of the equation, you cannot be surprised if women don’t notice you.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Absolutely and this is why in my view your blog is better to discuss game than roissy/heartise, because you actually deal with what the science says as a first principle, and then you give your opinions takes on it. There is a real and very necessary distinction to be made between being a “manwhore” and preselection as i am suggesting which is a man who is mated to a woman of high(er) class. The fellas reading along should most definitely take note.

    The events i attended with ms brown sugah and my experiences with her really opened my eyes to game and sociosexual dynamics playing themselves out in real time in modern day nyc. Much had been said about the bad overall nyc dating scene, and how bad it is for women in general; but i maintain that the real story is that the biggest losers on the nyc dating scene is the vast majority of men who get NOTHING and are the main ones who pickup the tab at the niteclubs bars concerts and the like. Nobody talks about it of course but trust me ive seen it firsthand how the vast majority of the guys roll into these venues and they rollout alone.

    Also: that situation i told you about in the park? Whew!-i was sweatin bullets because i was in a heck of a spot-the venue was jampacked and i couldnt move outta the way; ms brown sugah was to my left and this other chick was slightly off to my left and in front of me so i was stuck.

    My strategy: SAY/DO NOTHING. Eyes straightahead at the stage, firmly fixed on siddiq through my dark aviator shades. I could *feel* ms brown sugahs gaze on my like a laser beam-”what you gonna do?”-and sure enough thats what she told me she was thinking in that moment lol! I completely ignored the gal who hit on me, did absolutely nothing, didnt even look at her, no kind of interaction at all. It worked.

    Whew.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      My strategy: SAY/DO NOTHING. Eyes straightahead at the stage, firmly fixed on siddiq through my dark aviator shades. I could *feel* ms brown sugahs gaze on my like a laser beam-”what you gonna do?”-and sure enough thats what she told me she was thinking in that moment lol! I completely ignored the gal who hit on me, did absolutely nothing, didnt even look at her, no kind of interaction at all. It worked.

      Whew.

      O.

      I cannot tell you how refreshing this is and how much I respect it. You behaved in such a way that increased Brown Sugah’s respect for you. Roissy would have had you encouraging that woman to make BS jealous, which would have also humiliated and shamed her. This way, you got the benefit of preselection without causing trouble in your relationship. Win win.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Susan, when you talk about high count guys you usually seem to use numbers like 50+. Now few are going to disagree that a guy’s a bad bet at that point. But how many get to that point? 1-2%?

    There’s obviously a limit where promiscuity starts having diminishing returns on a guy’s social proof, but my opinion is that number is so high that all but a very small few will ever get to that point.

    On a college campus, a guy with a rotating harem of a handful of attractive girls will be pre-selected by just about everyone, including most relationship-seeking girls too.

    A guy who has slept with half the people in that girls circle though is someone who a) is desperate for sex and b) chooses women who don’t mind getting a small piece of a guy because they don’t have much to offer a dude.

    It seems like just about every social circle I’ve ever been a part of there’s always one guy who fucks a majority of the girls in that circle. The social proof obviously outweighs the negative stigma of promiscuity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy

      Susan, when you talk about high count guys you usually seem to use numbers like 50+. Now few are going to disagree that a guy’s a bad bet at that point. But how many get to that point? 1-2%?

      There’s obviously a limit where promiscuity starts having diminishing returns on a guy’s social proof, but my opinion is that number is so high that all but a very small few will ever get to that point.

      I actually don’t have a specific number in mind. I think a guy could come across that way if he hooks up with half a dozen girls in a month or two.

      I believe it may have more to do with personality than success with women. The guys who go through women fast, whether in a harem or just sequentially, almost always behave terribly toward them. I’ve seen the friends of these guys say, “Yeah, he’s an asshole with women, I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my sister.”

      Examples of bad behavior include:

      pretending you don’t know her on campus come Monday

      acting boyfriendy, with hand holding, etc. for a week or two, then bam – she doesn’t exist

      saying “I really, really like you” just before disappearing forever without a word

      drunkenly acting like a bro with the girl you’ve had sex with in the last month. “Hey, let’s partaaaaayyyy!”

      etc. etc. I could give a few dozen examples.

      I disagree that those guys will be preselected by just about everyone. The stigma of promiscuity + douchebaggery does contaminate those guys, in part because a girl’s friends will humiliate her for going there.

      One of my favorite examples is Karen Owen of the Duke Fuck List. She was not attractive, the athletes she hooked up with were all in the shady frat, and were generally avoided completely by sorority girls at Duke. I’m sure those guys weren’t anywhere near 50 – in fact, most of them had fake girlfriends and hooked up on the side. To be in the top 2% of college males, they would only had to have had sex with 10 women by senior year. That was plenty to have them labeled “dirty.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jimmy Hendericks

    On a college campus, a guy with a rotating harem of a handful of attractive girls will be pre-selected by just about everyone, including most relationship-seeking girls too.

    Eh, I wouldn’t say that the effects of social proof are universal to all women. I’ll agree with you in saying that there is definitely a group of women out there who jump at the chance to snag a guy that is surrounded by other women. Some women even willingly enter soft harems with the intent of beating out the competition and acquiring the top spot.

    Other women, myself included, see all that effort as a hassle. At some point, beating off other chicks to get to a guy isn’t worth it. I’ve never considered being a part of a soft harem because the idea is just too unsavory.

    I actually have a very recent example of this. I was invited to attend a party this past weekend by a guy I met and acted with in a recent theatre production. He is very good looking and highly charismatic. It’s no surprise to me why lots of women find him attractive. He seemed to take an interest in me when we first met, and the sexual tension/flirtation between us was very strong. Things were progressing well, until I found out that he had a girlfriend. At that point, my thoughts of him changed. I was still attracted to him, but encroaching on someone else’s territory is not my MO in the least.

    Anyway, I arrived at the party that night and was instantly given the catty “up and down” look by a woman at the party I had never met. She went out of her way to start talking to me, and it became very clear what her intentions were. She started asking me a multitude of questions regarding the guy in question. She wanted to know how I knew him, how long I’ve known him, and what my relationship to him was. This woman was not his girlfriend, considering that his girlfriend was across the country at the time, but her curiosity was nonetheless strange. She wanted to suss out the competition, in her mind. After I told her that the guy and I were just friends, she looked somewhat relieved.

    She began to tell me that she had a crush on the guy and about how bummed she was that he had a girlfriend. I feigned sympathy for her and continued to drink my beer.

    As the night progressed, I watched her actions, and I was extremely appalled. She flirted with the guy in question outright all night long. She asked to borrow his hoodie and followed him wherever he went. When he sat on a bar stool at one point in the night, she walked up to him and stood directly between his legs while placing her hands on his thighs. She kept touching him, and it was very apparent that she was throwing herself at him.

    I know women like that exist, but it was just awkward to watch the events that unfolded that night. She knew he had a girlfriend, but she didn’t care. She threw herself at him shamefully, and I felt she was disrespecting the girlfriend.

    At this point, some people would think that most women would jump at the chance to try to outdo her in order to snag the guy, but I’m not one of those women. I was rather sickened by the entire display, to be honest. I had met his girlfriend a few times, and she seemed like such a great woman. I couldn’t imagine disrespecting her by trying to snag her man. The fact that he allowed the other woman to be so flirty with him kind of soured my impression of him as well. He should have kept a respectful boundary between himself and the other woman, but he didn’t.

    I do think social proof is attractive to women, but up to a point.

  • Desiderius

    Those women whose political commitments (african-american and/or urban professional – with ground zero around 30-years-old) leave them more vulnerable to buying the bullshit of second-wave gender-indifferent feminism have recreated the madonna/whore complex in the other direction. They will escalate both sexually and emotionally with the player (whore) while behaving in what they perceive to be a traditional manner with the beta (madonna – obviously this applies, both then and now, only to those the pursuer has already identified as a good prospect) in hopes that this will lead to a traditional courtship.

    There are several problems with this from both a male and female perspective:

    (1) They often have only a rudimentary understanding of both the goals and methods of traditional courtship, in which the female role is one of talent scout who then becomes a crucial factor in developing her mate’s prestige.

    (2) The assumptions behind the madonna/whore complex are predicated on base male drives and don’t translate well the other direction.

    (3) Men and women of Susan’s generation figured out that madonnas make lousy wives anyway – i.e. there are better drives than the base ones.

    Susan’s circle, both in her own generation and the rising generation with which she works, have been generally raised (above their base instincts) better than that so she has difficulty believing the accounts of those who see this happening.

    Good men don’t chase whores however much they may gratify our base instincts because we’ve been raised to care about other things, likewise good women with players. Unfortunately avoiding whores/players alone is not enough. Developing lifelong loves takes affirmative steps that we’ve failed to adequately teach to the rising generation.

    This post is a valuable first step in making that right.

  • ali

    80% women want to be with 20% of the men. They will wait for those men (20%) even if they have to be single forever. Women want what other women have. There is a reason why single women love married men. It is a challenge and wants what the other women has. If a guy walks into a party with his guy friends. Girls ignore him. If a guy walks with 1, 2 or more girls, every girl wants him. Plus hollywood controls what women want. Black, white, hispanic men is what every women wants. All others better have a charismatic personality. At the end women who cant keep men realize they need a personality rather than just a V to keep a man

  • Bully

    Michael, you remind me of myself at your age. I was really no different – grew up in a poor family (well below the average income in 1983 with only one parent having regular work, and not well paying at that), had to work 30 hours a week all through college just to go to a no-name school for a comp sci degree. I was skinny, gangly, pale, broke, and game less. Not really a hit with the ladies. I can’t tell you how many experiences I had growing up like the one you just described.

    The worst sting of all is how badly I was lied to. By everyone. Family, society, friends. Anti-game was especially drilled into my head by my old fashioned parents. I didn’t even lose my virginity until well into my 20s. If HUS and sites like it had been around when I was growing up (I was the first in my class to have a computer and internet access in 1994, which was sort of a desperate Hail Mary play for my future considering my parents’ financial status. But it paid off. Boy did it ever.)

    With hard work, you CAN unlearn the pretty lies and see success. It’s something that had to come in time for me. It was actually Roissy that first opened my eyes, and I actually lurk here instead because the conversation is far more honest and realistic and not as nihilistic.

    Time will pass. You will unlearn. You will grow stronger with each passing week, if you work for it, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps (and I can already tell you are.) I don’t exactly want to brag about my accomplishments, because they are pretty irrelevant, but they are at least significant enough for me to catch interest from women.

    The only challenge for me now is how to actually want a relationship. After seeing such a stark divide in how I was treated by women before and after my success, it’s grown quite hard for me to trust one, which may be why I haven’t bothered dating in the last two years or so.

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    It is a man’s job to sexually escalate with a woman he is attracted to.

    It’s not just a job, it’s an adventure.

  • PeppermintPanda

    “80% women want to be with 20% of the men. They will wait for those men (20%) even if they have to be single forever.”

    That is simply not true, using Canadian statistics (which I would expect to be very similar to American statistics) http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/09/12/census-families.html:

    49.9% of people over the age of 15 are married, 18.9% are in common law relationships, and it is reasonable to expect that a significant percentage (probably 10% to 20%) are in committed relationships. If 80% to 90% of women are in relationships there (obviously) is no evidence to suggest that 80% of women are fighting for the top 20% of men.

    There are a wide variety of problems that are causing people to remain single, and unrealistic expectations is certainly a major issue for a lot of women, but the vast majority of women are finding acceptable men to pair up with.

  • PeppermintPanda

    Oops, the 18.9% for common law should be 15.5% (it surged 18.9%) … but still we’re talking about 75% or more women are in committed relationships

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
    Reader Hope shared some excellent ways that a woman can show genuine interest in one particular man. . . .

    Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side.

    I’m sure I speak for many men by saying that’s the only one that really matters.

  • http://footpole.wordpress.com Inlone

    I’ve never had a guy compliment me on my frown, but I have been told that my face lights up when I smile. A positive girl makes people around her feel more energized, which is very attractive. No needy, clingy, bitter, depressed or unhappy vibes.

    I think Hope has a lovely frown. ;)

    Anyway, I’d add caveats to that advice. Positivity is attractive, but not essential I wouldn’t say “No” needy-clingy-bitter-depressed vibes, as in none. Because then she might think she has to always be happy and positive in order to be loved and accepted. There are many women who were raised in environments in which their feelings were never validated.

    As always, a balanced approach is best. Steady as she goes.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Thanks! Yeah after that along with a number of events that were similar to it, i came up with a name for such a scenario:

    The kobyashi maru game sh*t test.

    Anything BUT a “do nothing” stance was a “fail” no matter how you slice it-and i dont think i need to you how potentially heated things could have gotten between two black women right? Images flashed through my mind of having to appear before the judge on some vicious catfight stuff that i was at the center of…whew…

    O.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I do think social proof is attractive to women, but up to a point.

    Yes the preselection effect is not a sure thing. Is true that if a group of slutty friends find a man that is attractive they will probably end up all sleeping with him, but he is more like attractive to the herd not one woman in particular and that made the other interest if you ask around chances are the other women are very similar to the first one he got. Is like seeing women sharing designer labels, similar principle.
    Lone women are usually not that influenced by the herd, they can be around but the her doesn’t define them, YMMV.

  • ali

    You know the old saying ‘actions speak louder than words’? Well, this is another classic example. Many (NOT ALL) women will SAY they want a nice guy who is respectful, loving, caring, open the doors for them, and all the other BS they’ll spout. But who do they give the ass to 99.99999999% of the time? The bad boy who never calls, doesn’t allow them to move in, who doesn’t compromise poker night with the boys to cuddle with her while watching some crappy dance show on FOX are the same ones bending their naked asses over couches every weekend. Then they go crying about how bad their asshole of a BF treats them despite the BJs and giving him sex 8 times a day to the, you guessed it, nice guy who’ll never get to find out whether they’re shaved or not.

    If a nice guy’s reward is to one day get the former dimepiece who is now well past her prime and to help raise the three kids she had with some ex who dumped her on her ass, who’ll never respect him because they know that he’s only the substitute teacher, I’ll take being an asshole all day long. Nice guys should know that they’ll never, EVER match up to the guy who gave her the best 35 minutes of her life back in 1998. Truth be told, if she was ever to find that guy who gave her four orgasms on Facebook or MySpace, that’s the dude she’ll be screwing the next time he’s in town. Book it..

  • VD

    <bAt this point, some people would think that most women would jump at the chance to try to outdo her in order to snag the guy, but I’m not one of those women. I was rather sickened by the entire display, to be honest. I had met his girlfriend a few times, and she seemed like such a great woman. I couldn’t imagine disrespecting her by trying to snag her man. The fact that he allowed the other woman to be so flirty with him kind of soured my impression of him as well. He should have kept a respectful boundary between himself and the other woman, but he didn’t.

    Cool story, bro…. Clearly you are not the type to have sex with him while he has a girlfriend, you will clearly wait until he tells you they’ve broken up before doing it. Thus you totally disproving the idea that most women are perfectly willing to have sex with promiscuous, socially-proofed men. Based on your obsessive behavior – yes, your close attention to the other girl is also indicative of obsession, if not as bad as hers – I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you are on his “call once I’m available” list.

    And I tend to suspect you will answer that call. With great excitement enhanced by the exquisitely agonizing delay. No woman gets into a man’s bed faster than the woman who was interested in him when he was off the market. I once had three women I’d never dated call “just to say hey!” the day after I broke it off with a girl I’d been seeing for a while, while another girl, when told that my friend the Super Alpha had ditched his girlfriend earlier that day, practically sprinted towards him as soon as she heard the news. The best part was the reaction of her friends who saw her suddenly run off for no apparent reason.

    “What the hell was that?”
    “I just told her Billy’s single again.”
    “OMG you did what? Why didn’t you stop her!”

  • PeppermintPanda

    “If a nice guy’s reward is to one day get the former dimepiece who is now well past her prime and to help raise the three kids she had with some ex who dumped her on her ass, who’ll never respect him because they know that he’s only the substitute teacher, I’ll take being an asshole all day long. ”

    For the most part I wouldn’t say that this is true …

    The combination of heavy drinking, drug use, smoking, excessive tanning, lack of sleep, promiscuity, and cosmetics eliminates most of the SMV that a large portion of party-girls/bar-stars have. You can see this by going to any dating website where there are tons of 30 year old girls who have a profile picture that looks like they’re 40 or 50 with a tag line “where have all the nice guys gone?”.

    Women who have one young child (under 3) stand a chance of finding a guy, but when women have more children (especially by multiple fathers) or their children hit a certain age (9 or older) men avoid these women.

    Certainly, there are a lot of promiscuous girls who do end up with a happily ever after; but the vast majority of these women are in the lifestyle for a very short period of time (a year or two) and do not go home with guys most nights they go out. The more promiscuous a woman is, the more of a negative impact it will have on her relationship prospects, and after enough damage has been done the best she can (really) hope for is to be taken home by desperate guys who will progressively get older, fatter and uglier as she gets older.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @vd:
    Am i right that the “vd” may stand for “vox day”? Just curious.

    Anyway youre wrong in your conclusion about preselection; theres just too much eviidence of it being a very real thing running in the other direction. Everyone from buss to mystery has validated the concept. Not to mention the arguably millions of men on the pickup scene alone whove seen it in action.

    Oh, and everybody please dont fool yourself that only “sluts” get turned on by guys who already have gals-you will be seriously disabused of that notion with the quickness. I continue to be amazed by the stubborn ideology of some people…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh, and everybody please dont fool yourself that only “sluts” get turned on by guys who already have gals

      In economic terms, preselection is simply a high advertised price. Bidding one on particular guy drives his price up, simple as that. The man has many options from which to choose. I would argue that his having options is the DHV, not his exercising them.

      By the way, though preselection does not work in quite the same way for women, it is still a DHV for a woman when all the men think she’s the hottest. To maintain it, it is essential that she not exercise her options, and certainly not with a male of lower SMV than herself.

  • Michael

    ”49.9% of people over the age of 15 are married, 18.9% are in common law relationships, and it is reasonable to expect that a significant percentage (probably 10% to 20%) are in committed relationships. If 80% to 90% of women are in relationships there (obviously) is no evidence to suggest that 80% of women are fighting for the top 20% of men.”

    And how many of those relationships are sexless? I know guys who’ve been dating their girlfriends for years and years and they’re still in the ”getting to know each other stage” aka, no sexual intimacy at all, LOL.

    I’ve personally befriended more than 200 beta males, decent looking fellas who don’t act creepy, many of these guys have jobs, but in their ”relationships,” sex never happens, LOL.

  • Michael

    On the other hand.. I know of very attractive women paying the rent of bad boys, Brad Pitts and PUA. I grew up with a girl, same age, she was fat as a pre-teen but to please her douchebag of a boyfriend she lost massive weight, becoming model material(but she’s short, though).

    That dude tried to get in her pants for at least 3 years, she wouldn’t do it. She wouldn’t do anything resembling sex.

    The dude was highly jealous of any perceived male competition; he made her drop all of her guy friends. When the girl asked me to go see what was wrong with her computer, he was stalking her house. He saw me in her room, although knowing that the girl was practically the sister I never had and tried to climb her window to kick my butt, lol.

    2 days past that event he demanded of her, to end the relationship she had with me, the friendship. She said no and dumped him.

    2 years after her 16th birthday she met a guy. Low-status male working as fish-seller. She moved in with him, and my family thought the guy was helping with the bills. Sure thing, LOL. She spent the last 2 years paying for his clothes, his food, his brothers education etc etc.

    She eventually kicked him out when she realized the dude was never going to pull his weight. They still get together once in a while to have sex, but to think that this dude, who never had a job in his life, managed to have sex everyday with a woman who is rather attractive, seductive, sexual and takes care of her body and of her image to the mint.

    The irony is that, her first boyfriend had a reason to be jealous. While growing up, the girl aggressively pursued me and ”sexually molested” me, and even when she had her last boyfriend, she told him to not be jealous because we are only friends, but she never missed or misses a chance to get a rise out of me; talking about sex, telling me that I want to bang her, showing me her lingerie and her sexy underwear, asking me how many chicks I’ve banged since last we spoke, showing me the dildo she uses and asking me the size of my penis, if it’s as big as the dildo she has etc, and basically acting highly sexual around me.

    Of course I have never done anything with her, regardless of her single status. If she’s like this at will with her own sexuality, and if she’s attracted to me, she’d come onto me and ”do me.” The strangeness of it all is that, we live one street away from each other, she has my phone and my email adress etc, but she never gets in touch. It’s only when we happen upon each other or my mother decides to visit her mother that we are together and she never misses the chance to cock-tease me, lol.

    I don’t know. If she uses me as an ego booster(doesn’t really have a reason for that), I think it’d be fair if I took her to my college and acted as if she was my girlfriend. I remember one time we went to the supermarket and every woman aged 16-50 had their eyes fixated on my every move.

    They must’ve thought that she was my gf, rising my social status that way.

    Maybe I’ll cut my masturbation and porn and go months without sexual release. Then I’ll go to her house and escalate the sexual innuendo into actual sex play. I’ll probably get slapped and branded with a sexual harrassment charge, LOL!

  • Michael

    ”By the way, though preselection does not work in quite the same way for women, it is still a DHV for a woman when all the men think she’s the hottest. To maintain it, it is essential that she not exercise her options, and certainly not with a male of lower SMV than herself”

    Quite true. A met a young woman who was older than me, she wasn’t exactly what you’d call hot, but she was always in high demand by Alpha males. She wanted to have a relationship with me because my social value when compared to her’s was sky high, but she thought that, talking about the many sexual partners she has had until then, and what they’ve done, was going to make me go into a frenzy ” I must have that!”

    lol , didn’t work that way. I was highly attracted to her, just looking at her made my blood boil, but after the revelation of how loose her morals was(maybe she was loose down there too, LOL) made my intention to have a relationship with her, go away. Worse, I didn’t even want to hook-up with her, nor did I want to have a stand-alone make-out session.

    Though, I had a classmate in high school, she was highly attractive, with a great bosom, but she was highly religious at the same time. Couldn’t find any attraction for her. Go figure LOL.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Michael

    http://marriagegems.com/2010/09/06/sex-stats-for-married-and-singles-how-do-you-measure-up/

    “The average person in America has sex approximately 60 times a year, according to a study from the American Sex Survey ABCnews.com, The Kinsey Institute. Within every age group from age 18 to over 70 married people had more sex than singles …”

    “Sexless” marriages are (almost always) exaggerations, and it is (often) a married guy who is unhappy because he is only having sex once a week. Many of the big-talking web-players would be lucky if they had sex half as often as that …

    This was a tangent to the point I was making though. Essentially, at least 3/4 of women are entering into long term relationships that seem acceptable to them with partners who (obviously) could not be seen as “Alpha” males. The remaining women are single for a wide variety of reasons, extreme obesity probably accounts for 5% to 10% of these women, unrealistic expectations probably accounts for another 5% to 10%, single mothers of multiple children accounts for another 5%, and a large portion of the remainder are toxic she-bitches who either have personality or substance abuse problems.

  • Ted D

    Great post Susan (I think I said that already LOL)

    This is the kind of stuff I’ve been looking for from the woman’s side: girl game!

    For all the bitching and moaning I have done over the past year about how it isn’t “fair” that men have to initiate, blah blah blah, THIS is why I was kinda pissed. Tons of advice out there for men to get it right, but pretty much NO ONE else including sites “for woman” print this kind of stuff. Why? Because it goes against everything feminism fought for. A woman is supposed to be emotionally vulnerable with a man?! She is supposed to go “all in” first?! Act like a lady?!!! Yes, this is exactly the kind of stuff that will make a guy fall hard for a woman.

    Here is the thing ladies: I for one would NOT expect you to walk around 24×7 emotionally open and vulnerable. Nor would I expect you to act overly submissive to every man on the street. BUT, and this is key to me, things are NOT the same in your intimate relationships. Don’t treat your BF/Husband like you would the rest of the men in the world. Consider him the exception to all the standard “rules” when it comes to dealing with men in a feminist way, and 50% of your work is done. There is nothing wrong with submitting to your mates leadership. It does NOT make you a “sellout” to your feminist sisters. It makes you a good mate!

    And to me, it shows dedication to the relationship to act this way. I certainly treat my SO far differently than I do every other woman I deal with on a daily basis. Not to say I’m rude to the them, but they are external to my personal life, and external to my most intimate life (folks I know outside of work) and that means I keep them at a certain “emotional distance” for lack of a better term. My SO doesn’t deal with any of those layers of protection (what I usually call my “shields” and Liza seems to do the same.) Athol calls it the Princess Fiona treatment, and I’m sure there are many other names. But ladies, you need to do the same. Don’t interact with your man through all of those shields and layers of BS. Be open, honest, and direct, and he will reciprocate with his loyalty and love. If he doesn’t, then move on. Because I don’t know of a single guy (mind you I’m an old dude) that wouldn’t fall for this kind of treatment provided he was already interested in pursuing something long term. Me? This is like crack. My SO demonstrated most of Susan’s advice here early on, and I couldn’t help but be drawn to her because of it. I was just wrapping up my divorce, and honestly had NO intentions of trying for another serious relationship. In fact, at the time we met, I was “talking” myself into a life of casual dating and perhaps a long term FWB type setup, because I had very little faith in women at the time, and two kids to take care of mostly on my own. When I first met my current SO, she was a friend of my friend’s wife, and I was immediately “smitten” with her despite my efforts to the contrary. I just didn’t think it would be fair to her since my life was such a mess, and I didn’t want to trust any woman at that time. But, over the course of a few months, every time we saw each other she engaged me. In terms of your advice it went something like this:
    1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him. – this didn’t come into play right away, but she did make sure to drop hints into the conversation that she wasn’t involved with anyone. As we started getting serious (which means I gave up holding out…) she again made it clear she didn’t have any plates spinning and had no desire to do so.
    2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him. – We met through mutual friends, so she already knew I was in IT of some sort. But, in our early conversations when we weren’t comparing notes on divorce horror stories, she asked a lot about what I did with myself other than working on computers. In fact, she was genuinely (or appeared to be which is just as good LOL) interested in some of the work I was doing at the time in IT security. If nothing else, all this chat made me feel more comfortable with her faster than usual. It normally takes me a long time to “warm up” to a person. She had me in a few weeks, and we only actually talked three times in that span.
    3. Ask for his advice, support or help. – Here she killed two birds with one stone. Not long after we met she switched her internet provider, and had no idea how to share it with multiple PCs. She called and asked if I would do her a “favor” and meet her at Walmart to pick out a home router. Of course I did (I’m a sucker for a woman in distress…) and after we picked one she looked at the box for a few seconds and said “you know how to hook one of these up right? There is a dinner in it for you!”. So yeah, then she fed me a great home cooked meal. I told her that was her mistake. She fed me and I came back. :-p
    4. Be generous and appreciative. – see above about making me dinner. In fact, after that the escalation simply kept moving forward at a steady pace. She invited me over for dinner, then she asked if I wanted to bring my kids over on a Saturday for a cookout with my friend and his wife (they lived two doors down) and as I said above things just kept on moving.
    5. Share a lust for life. – for us, this didn’t come into play until a bit further down the road to making things “official”. But, she made it clear without directly putting me into the picture, that she had things she wanted to do and places to go, and if nothing else I felt a bit special because she was sharing it with me. I took it as a sign that she wanted me to be part of those plans, since she took the time to tell me.
    6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him. – yeah. This probably doesn’t need any description, but I will tell you that from the get go my SO was all over this point. In fact, I’ve said before that I applied the brakes a little bit here because she was VERY adamant about wanting to get with me. I know I haven’t had a ton of experience with women in general, but this was something new for me. Not so much feeling like my mate is/was attracted to me (at some point my ex-wife was indeed attracted and interested.) but the intensity of that desire was very high. To be honest, we’ve talked about it and both decided that our sexual attraction for each other is one of the highest either of us has ever experienced. Not so much that at first site “I want to bang that” kind of attraction. It’s more like a constant buzz that sometimes just turns into a roar. (no lie, being with my current SO makes me feel very much like I did as a late teen/early 20-something man. All horned up and ready to pounce) We both realize only being a few years together that we are still in the “fairy tale” stage, but we’ve been living together for much of that time, and so far things have stayed mostly the same. For me, I’ve never had this much straight desire sexually for a woman. It was there from day one, I just did my best to suppress it, kill it, and bury it. Fortunately she simply didn’t let me.

    Which is one thing I would like to add. Again my lack of experience here means I learned this lesson late in the game. But sexual attraction really is important. I know that seems obvious, but I believe we’ve discussed here before that men aren’t usually too hard to please, meaning they can work well with even a low level of sexual attraction for a woman, and happily stay as long as his needs (not just sexual) are being met. I know that isn’t romantic, but I think for many men it is simply true. But, I can easily see and feel the difference between my previous LTRs and my current, and part of that is the very strong attraction we feel towards each other. When we are happy, we want to sex each other up. Get into a fight? Hell yeah! Sad or depressed? Strangely enough yes. And at least for me, it really helps to share that kind of intimacy when I’m really in the dumps. Its funny because we can both tell when the other is truly sick, because that is the only time the sexual desire fades. And for me, even then it’s still there. Just my will to act on it is gone while I’m sick. Now I’m not saying jump in the sack to test the waters. We knew WAY before we took off our clothes that we wanted each other. I don’t think either of us had any doubt that it was going to be good stuff, and my SO’s was very anxious to find out honestly. I was too, but for me to feel safe enough for that, I had to feel some level of commitment from her. She did a great job getting us to that point, and I simply had to take the final step to acknowledge it all. Mind you, this all happened before I found the ‘sphere. Things would have been totally different if I’d already found the red pill, but to be honest it may be better that I hadn’t. I would have been far more distrusting of her intentions, and less confident in myself. Strangely enough, I lost a lot of confidence after first taking the red pill, and it took a lot of soul searching and replaying of past experiences to finally feel OK about where I ended up. Maybe I’m just a lucky SOB, or maybe for all that I was mostly beta during my marriage, I had enough alpha in me to get the job done once I was no longer “bound” by my marriage. I’ve never really had problems finding a relationship when I wanted one, and looking back I found that I tend to “puss out” once the relationship is established, but not so much when I’m single and on my own. So, now I’m just going to do my best to keep that “single” state of mind in place.

    WOW. I’m in a chatty mood today. The people I work with are going to wonder what is wrong with me if I leave my cube…

  • Ted D

    PPanda – ““Sexless” marriages are (almost always) exaggerations, and it is (often) a married guy who is unhappy because he is only having sex once a week. Many of the big-talking web-players would be lucky if they had sex half as often as that …”

    I don’t know. My own marriage was sexless by the standard definition I’ve seen. At the worst (the last few years) I’d say we had sex MAYBE once or twice a month. At least up until it was clear we were heading for a divorce. I think after that point, we had sex twice, mostly during the “fighting” stage and I think it was more about getting rid of pent up aggression than any desire we had for each other. I know of two other men who were in about that same boat prior to their own divorces. I don’t know if that holds true for most “bad” marriages though.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Ted D,

    Having never been married I can’t say from personal experience, but I suspect that your marriage did not start out sexless; and it probably progressively got worse throughout the marriage.

    In all likelihood, I expect most marriages that are broken have a substantial loss of physical intimacy; but they didn’t start out that way. In fact, I expect most men were getting as much sex as they wanted from the relationship before they became married or moved in with a woman. The loss of intimacy therefore can not be attributed to them being “Beta” (because being “Beta” didn’t stop intimacy before) and has to do with a relationship that is falling apart with neither partner knowing how to fix it.

  • Ted D

    PPanda – “Having never been married I can’t say from personal experience, but I suspect that your marriage did not start out sexless; and it probably progressively got worse throughout the marriage.”

    OH yeah! No doubt. I wouldn’t have married her if we weren’t having sex then. LOL

    It went exactly as you described. First five years or so where pretty good (for all that we were struggling to make it financially). But as we past the five year mark, things started cooling down. Then she started shit testing and pushing, and instead of holding my ground I doubled down on betaness and drove it all into the ground. I quit gigging completely because she complained about the time I put into it, and I think once I gave in to that demand, it was really a done deal.

    I don’t know of anyone that has been in a truly sexless marriage from start to finish. Each one of them started well enough, and then died over time. Usually because of too much betatude after saying “I Do”. But in my defense, it really was what I was told would be expected of me once I “grew up” and became a husband and father. I actually felt bad because I was trying to do things that I liked, keeping interests outside of the family, and I actually believed it was unfair to my ex and kids that I had a life outside of them and work. *shrug* I learned…

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    Cool story, bro…. Clearly you are not the type to have sex with him while he has a girlfriend, you will clearly wait until he tells you they’ve broken up before doing it. Thus you totally disproving the idea that most women are perfectly willing to have sex with promiscuous, socially-proofed men. Based on your obsessive behavior – yes, your close attention to the other girl is also indicative of obsession, if not as bad as hers – I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you are on his “call once I’m available” list.

    And I tend to suspect you will answer that call. With great excitement enhanced by the exquisitely agonizing delay. No woman gets into a man’s bed faster than the woman who was interested in him when he was off the market. I once had three women I’d never dated call “just to say hey!” the day after I broke it off with a girl I’d been seeing for a while, while another girl, when told that my friend the Super Alpha had ditched his girlfriend earlier that day, practically sprinted towards him as soon as she heard the news. The best part was the reaction of her friends who saw her suddenly run off for no apparent reason.

    Um, how did you manage to come up with so many faulty conclusions about me based off of what I wrote?

    I’m sorry that I don’t fit into your preconceived notions of women, and you can’t assume to know what I would do in that situation. You don’t know me.

    I can tell you now that I wouldn’t get involved with him right after he should hypothetically dump his girlfriend, and I’ll tell you why.

    I think that there are certain boundaries which are okay to cross and which are not okay to cross. I understand that not everyone holds themselves to the same standards I do, and that’s fine. I’ve never gone after someone else’s boyfriend, and I’ve never gone after a guy who is recently single. I don’t think it’s wise to. If I know the ex-girlfriend in question, I definitely still consider her ex-boyfriend her turf, end of discussion. The idea of “girl code” might not hold much weight, in your eyes, but it’s something I follow. Trying to get with a friend’s or acquaintance’s ex is a no no. Not all women adhere to that either, which is why there are some women who do it anyway.

    I’ll admit that I am attracted to him. It’s had not to be when he is such an attractive person, in general. Having said that, I know my place and I adhere to the boundaries I’ve set for myself.

    As far as the woman in the story, I paid attention to her because she made her intentions known from the very beginning. Everyone else at the party watched her as well because they were shocked by her actions. They all knew the girlfriend as well, and I could tell they were judging her, just as I was. She made herself a spectacle by totally disregarding the fact that he had a girlfriend. If any woman were to jump at the opportunity to date him, should he happen to become single, it would be her.

    Also, I’ve had a similar experience happen to me that you described. When the relationship between myself and one of my ex’s occurred, 4 men came out of nowhere and tried to get with me right after. I was even more shocked by the fact that 2 of the men were my ex’s friends. I kid you not. One was his roommate, at the time, and the other was a friend he’d had for several years. I found their actions to be very disrespectful. Not only were they breaking “guy code”, but they were also his friends. I ignored all of their advances, and I’m glad that I did. Dating an ex’s friend would be really low. I couldn’t imagine a more weird or awkward cluster fuck of a situation than that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve been thinking about the whole bro code issue since Jimmy Hendricks’ comment yesterday, specifically as it applies to women, i.e. girl code. He mentioned that one guy will often wind up sleeping with a whole friend group. I have to say I don’t think I have ever even heard of that. If anything, girls tend to be ridiculously territorial, e.g. setting guys off limits indefinitely after a random makeout session that went nowhere. I cannot think of a single example where one girl had sex with a guy another girl had had sex with, unless a lot of time had passed. Even then, it can be very tricky.

      I have known girls who slept with a whole guy group – basically a slut who got passed around. Since none of the guys were trying to date her, they were all cool with it.

      I can imagine that a group of extremely promiscuous girls or sex positive feminist types might pass guys around among themselves, but as I say, I don’t know any girls like that and have never heard directly of it happening. It doesn’t seem possible that intrasexual female competition would permit it.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the one time one of my friends took up with a former GF (really just a fling) of mine, I felt very awkward about it and we didn’t really speak much until they broke up. I still to this day cannot quite explain to myself why I felt that way but the feeling was strong.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I agree, I have felt the same way. Even though I was the one who broke up with my college bf, it really was difficult for me when my sorority sisters lined up to have a crack at him. It made me so uncomfortable at functions, I just wanted him to start dating someone I didn’t know.

  • Ted D

    Having sex with a group of “friends” is just creepy to me. I mean, in a way, those folks all ended up sleeping with each other if they passed around a guy (or gal). I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!

  • Doc

    Jealousy: “Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way.”

    Very true – while it may increase his interest in the short-term – usually you have moved yourself into the “unfaithful” category – this means that from a short-term perspective you are worth pursuing more aggressively, since the man can nail her. But from the long term perspective she is definitely NOT LTR material, and after successfully achieving his goal, will move on quickly.

    A lot of women do not seem to grasp this – just as a man usually cannot over-come the “friend” label, a woman who a man has branded as a “ho” is branded in that way for him, as well as all of his friends who he will share his success with. This is why some women tend to be “passed around” – they are sort of like a foot-ball, good for a quick and dirty game, but certainly not for anything on par for the championship level.

    So the “jealously” gambit generally back-fires if your goal is to up the stakes for a LTR situation.

  • Cooper

    Susan, I can testify to what Jimmy described – I’ve seen this in college as well.
    I was witness to how the girls (while in each others company) would shame this guy for being a “man-whore”, yet each of them threw themselves at him at some point or another.
    Two girls that I’m still friends with today both got with him. The first of the two never heard the end of it, the girls made it seem like she had committed treason. Then within weeks, the other (the one who had given the first a particularly hard time) had also hooked up with him.

    It’s like the first had told the second a bunch of stories – and they made the second desire to have the same experience with the same guy.

    It even went further, cause afterwards (by this time, they both disliked the guy) new girls would come to hangout with us, (I foolishly thought they were trying to hook me up.) and when this guy wasn’t around they’d “shame” him by talking shut about how he’s such a “whore” and then usually new girls would usually follow suit – and hook up with him.

    It was pre-selection at it’s best. It’s was like the fact that he had hooked with the girls of the group (and that they were mad it was short-lived) that made other girls immediately qualify him for themselves. Girls wanted to see what made the other girls “shame” him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      So the girls you hang out with are so casual about sex they’ll hear a guy is slutty and immediately determine to “hit that?” Based on the data we have about college students, we’re talking a very small percentage (2-3%) of women – at most.

      This may explain a great deal of your frustration in the SMP. Sluts are going for massive displays of dominance (not the good kind), found in men whose mating strategies are also strictly short-term.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Cooper

    I was witness to how the girls (while in each others company) would shame this guy for being a “man-whore”, yet each of them threw themselves at him at some point or another.
    Two girls that I’m still friends with today both got with him. The first of the two never heard the end of it, the girls made it seem like she had committed treason. Then within weeks, the other (the one who had given the first a particularly hard time) had also hooked up with him.

    It’s like the first had told the second a bunch of stories – and they made the second desire to have the same experience with the same guy.

    I’ve seen examples of this as well. I always thought that the girls in those situations were desperate and crazy. I’m sorry, but no man is worth that much trouble. I often wondered why they preferred fighting each other over one man instead of going out and getting their own guy that they didn’t have to share. That seems like it would be less of a hassle.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, the sure-fire way to get a new girl interested in you is getting her on your own. It sounds like your current social circle and female “friends” are just holding you back. They also seem to attract girls who are into a certain kind of guy which you are not.

    Being an introvert has many perks, the biggest of which is I never had the awkward social circle sex situation come up, and I’ve never had to be friends or friendly with an ex’s new girlfriend. :P

  • J

    First five years or so where pretty good (for all that we were struggling to make it financially). But as we past the five year mark, things started cooling down.

    That’s fairly typical of marriages, Ted. That dopamine rush phase can only last for so long. Your body simply can’t sustain it for more than five years. After that, you have to make the transition to a more friendship- or attachment-based oxytocin love or the love will die. My guess isn’t that you were too beta. It’s that there wasn’t a strong enough personal connection between you and your ex to outlast the natural tapering off of sexual attraction.

    Then she started shit testing and pushing, and instead of holding my ground I doubled down on betaness and drove it all into the ground.

    I think that game can artificially extend some of that dopamine-based excitement on an occasional basis, but, if the friendship element isn’t there, it’s just a stopgap. As an example, the hubs and I can still have a honeymoon weekend (dopamine) when the kids aren’t around, but that wouldn’t happen if the day-to-day (oxytocin) stuff weren’t there.

    I quit gigging completely because she complained about the time I put into it, and I think once I gave in to that demand, it was really a done deal.

    I agree that you shouldn’t have given in. One, you’re entitled to something you enjoy as long as it’s not screwing other women. Two, gigs are fun! One of my fondest memories is showing up pregnant to a gig and demanding to go backstage because “I’m with the band.” The reaction was hysterical. It’s also really cool to take kids backstage to see daddy when they’re little or–coolest of all–to be backstage wehn your kid is playing.

  • Harkat

    @inlone

    Usually, it’s mostly a job.

  • Cooper

    @sassy
    ” I often wondered why they preferred fighting each other over one man instead of going out and getting their own guy that they didn’t have to share.”
    I think this happens when the girls main goal is to impress their girl-friends. I think girls don’t think finding a guy of their own to bring back to the group is as impressive as capturing the attention of a guy they all already know for being promiscuous. It’s like the “man-whore” shaming is a tactic to ward off other girls so that they can have the guy for themselves. That and the idea of locking down a player seems like a more impressive catch, I suppose.

    @Hope
    You are probably correct in your assessment.

  • Ted D

    J – “It’s also really cool to take kids backstage to see daddy when they’re little or–coolest of all–to be backstage wehn your kid is playing.”

    My son is actually in the school band playing tuba, and I have been teaching him to play drums now for a year or so. He remembers when we used to rehearse in our basement, and he seems to be interested in possibly putting something together to play out. But, he’s only going to be 13 this month, so it is early to tell. I’m back to putting some time and effort into my musical interests and plan to share that with all our kids as much as possible. I don’t plan on making any rock stars, but I certainly enjoyed my time gigging and at least it will give them something other than video games to be involved in. And hey, if he (or the other two) decide to put a band together, I’m hella good at running live sound, and could probably even serve as a manager of sorts. (I’m used to dealing with bar owners and venue schedulers.)

    Yeah, I know all about the five year thing now. Its funny. My ex and I are MUCH better friends now than we were when married. We get along well, but we don’t work well WITH each other. I think some people just aren’t good for each other, even if they both want it to be. In the end, I’m glad it worked out the way it did. I am much happier, and instead of being one of the guys I know that has to fight tooth and nail to be involved in his children’s lives, my ex and I both try very hard to work together for what is best for our kids. Everyone I know tells me just what a rare thing I have going, but to me it just makes sense. It’s bad enough our family was pulled apart, I’ll be damned if I’m going to have my children dealing with parents that hate each other. She had plenty of good qualities when we got married, and for the most part those are all still there. So, why hate? I’ve even managed to find a new mate that my ex likes, and as odd as it seems they get along very well. In fact, my ex and SO have and do communicate directly with each other as necessary to keep things running smoothly with our household. (for things like setting up weekend swaps and such) My SO’s ex was just up last weekend to pickup her kids for the summer, and he stayed the night before heading back south. We have lots of beds, and again I don’t want any of our children to see the adults in their lives acting like children. We are all adults, and there is no reason to act any other way.

    Besides, the icing on the cake is that my SO and I get a summer vacation of sorts. You see, our children all go to their other families over the summer, leaving us alone to enjoy whatever we want. I imagine it will only be a few more years though. The boys are going to be 16 in three years. Once they get summer jobs I doubt they will want to lose the chance to make more money, and then we will probably only get a few weeks of peace and quiet. But that’s fine since they will be out and busy anyway. And, we look at this as preparation for our empty nest phase. We will NOT find ourselves sitting at the table wondering what to do with ourselves once the kids are out. We are actually making plans already. As in, once they move out, we already have plans for re-purposing their bedrooms and such. And we just keep adding to the list of places we want to vacation.

    Like I said, I may be a lucky SOB. Or, maybe, despite my failures I choose decent people to be a part of my life. It is probably a mix. :-P

  • Cooper

    “they’ll hear a guy is slutty and immediately determine to “hit that?””

    Not immediatey, they seem to shame the ones that hook up with them, while they’re together when he’s not around. They’ll even ‘warn’ girls that aren’t familiar with him and that only seems to perk the new girls interest in him.

    I have to admit, I did tactically move downtown to locate myself near this particular social group – which hasn’t been very productive cause traditional values are not something that are, well, valued – or even encouraged for that matter.
    I will always remember the conversation about friends of ours that have stayed together, as a couple, throughout college since high-school. All the girls of our group considered it almost unnatural behavior. They all agreed that that just wasn’t “in their nature.” So, yeah, they obviously believe that there is a certain amount of “fun” they’re entitled to before having to “settle down.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      They all agreed that that just wasn’t “in their nature.” So, yeah, they obviously believe that there is a certain amount of “fun” they’re entitled to before having to “settle down.”

      If it’s not in their nature, I can’t imagine they’ll wind up settling down successfully. That’s the problem with the meme that women jump from alphas to betas. I don’t think they do. In general, I think alpha chasers stay alpha chasers, and girls who date betas marry betas. Of course, there are those men who find out their wives never did think they were hot – ouch. I can’t imagine how that happens, frankly. Maybe I should write a post about what it looks, feels and sounds like when a woman is head over heels. No man should risk marrying a woman who is saying “meh” of even “uh oh” as she walks down the aisle.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger
    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat

      Jenna Marbles is funny. I’ve linked to her “how to look hot” video before, which is very well done.

  • Michael

    ”Having sex with a group of “friends” is just creepy to me. I mean, in a way, those folks all ended up sleeping with each other if they passed around a guy (or gal). I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!”

    But dude, doesn’t that mean that everyone has slept with everyone due to people not marrying as (real) virgins? lol

  • Ramble

    Even though I was the one who broke up with my college bf, it really was difficult for me when my sorority sisters lined up to have a crack at him.

    Let me guess, this guy was NOT Alpha, but really quite beta.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Let me guess, this guy was NOT Alpha, but really quite beta.

      Nope, he was my first bf, totally alpha. Quarterback, frat president, Greek God, 1976. Dumb as rocks. Nice guy in the way that alphas often were back then. I haven’t dated an alpha since, which is how I know that the notion of a woman always longing for the alpha she sexed up is crap. He was a good boyfriend, and I lost my virginity to him, but in retrospect it was the worst sex I ever had. Seriously, even the ONSs were better.

      Oh, and if you’re wondering why alphas are bad in bed? No emo.

  • J

    @Ted

    It sounds like you’re having fun with your son, and that’s the main thing. You never know what’ll happen though. Between our two boys, my husband has been the unofficial coach, road manager and recording engineer for a bunch of short-lived kid bands and it all started in our basement from kids having fun.

    Our aim isn’t raise rockstars either. We’re just happy the boys have something fun to do that they’ll look forward to while doing their day jobs. Gigging gives DH someting to kook forward to when his desk job gets annoying. If one of the boys gets rich and famous, then…bonus!

    In regard to your and your SO’s arrangements with your respective exes, it really sounds ideal. All the kids are lucky to have parents who are mature enough to put their difficulties aside for their sakes. My hat is of to you and your SO, Ted.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, I stayed with the same guy from high school, through all four years of college, and for a few years after that. The female friends I had didn’t think that was weird or anything.

    By the way, my husband basically a “lone wolf” when I met him, because he had left his toxic social circle back in college. He would have probably turned me off if he had a bunch female friends who act as you described.

    In my opinion, your female “friends” are actually cockblocking you. Because you think “pre-selection” is the only way to get new girls, and because these girls are probably physically attractive, you hang onto the “friendship.” They aren’t doing you any good.

  • VD

    I’m sorry that I don’t fit into your preconceived notions of women, and you can’t assume to know what I would do in that situation. You don’t know me.

    Not only can I assume to know what you would do in certain situations, I can likely do so more accurately than you can. You’re a woman, so you’re dynamic and heavily influenced by emotions, hence the oft-heard “hamster” metaphor. This means you are not a particularly reliable judge of what you will or will not do in a hypothetical situation, regardless of how strongly you happen to feel about something at the moment. Should your feelings change, you will feel just as strongly about your revised position, and if you are anything like most women, you may even deny that you ever felt differently.

    I’ll admit that I am attracted to him. It’s hard not to be when he is such an attractive person, in general. Having said that, I know my place and I adhere to the boundaries I’ve set for myself.

    Perhaps you will. Perhaps you won’t even have the chance to violate them. But I note that the boundaries you have set for yourself still permit you to have sex with him, simply not when he is in, or was very recently in, a relationship. What is clear is that you are a) attracted to him, and b) would be at least potentially willing to get together with him so long as it is not “right after” he goes back on the market. What you have not grasped is that this tends to support the position that women are attracted to social proofed studs, they are not repelled by them as is so often claimed. Also, if you are already attracted, the chances are nil that you could withstand a focused campaign on his part.

    You quite wisely don’t want to be harem member or rebound girl. Your desire to avoid that trumps his attractiveness at the moment and is a credit to your good sense. But it’s also apparent that it wouldn’t matter to you if he had been with 10 women or 100, you are attracted to him, in part due to his degree of social proof. Given that you’re already attracted, do you think you would cease to be attracted to him if his N > 10? Or >30?

  • VD

    I was witness to how the girls (while in each others company) would shame this guy for being a “man-whore”, yet each of them threw themselves at him at some point or another.

    There are few better ways for a girl to hook you up than to “warn off” another girl about you. My best wingman was one of my brother’s ex-girlfriends, a tall, blonde model who was a near double for Niki Taylor. In addition to serving as social proof by her presence in the pack, she would go up to women we’d approach and tell them how dreadfully awful we were, that our house was like a revolving door, and so forth. It was like shooting fish in barrels.

    A man is in much better shape if a woman tells him “you’re terrible” or “you’re disgusting” than “aw, you’re so sweet”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A man is in much better shape if a woman tells him “you’re terrible” or “you’re disgusting” than “aw, you’re so sweet”.

      And if she slaps or punches him while saying that, he’s in.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I am having some conceptual problems here.
    @ted:
    WHY is it so vital that there MUST be a “girl game”? For the life of me this has been something that no one has been able to adequately explain to me or anyone else that actually made sense. From an evopsych pov getting the job done is far and away easier for the female than it is for the male; again for every spinster there are at least two bachelors (buss, the evolution of desire). It almost seems like a competition thing; “girls got game too!”-when in truth, once one understands evopsych which is what informs game to begin with, the whole thing sounds downright silly.

    @peppermint panda:
    I am trying to understand your and a whole lot of peoples problems with pickup artists? Why the hate? For the most part they arent bothering anybody, arent breaking any laws. They simply want to have sexual relationships on their own terms; whats the harm in that? It seems to me that for some people, game/pickup is deply unsettling in a way that those who have problems either cant or wont articulate in a calm, rational way.

    @ms walsh:
    Part of my response to ted applies to you insofar as preselection is concerned; while men definitely do mate poach it isnt the same thing as preselection, nor do guys think a womans hot BECAUSE shes with a guy (a “hot” one at that). I am just not getting why we must “democratize” game so that for every aspect or jot and tittle of it, there must be this notion that theres a female analog. Again, only those who do not understand evopsych, let alone game itself, would say such a thing.

    But you are right on one major count: being what would be considered an alpha male is simply this:

    A man with options.

    Because its those “options” that form the basis of his being alpha in the first place-which is a clear majority of women would like to have him than not.

    Finally…

    Buss makes a powerful argument about mate rentention in his the evolution of desire. The scenario w/ms brown sugah in central park was centered mainly on this fact. By that time i had invested more than a year and a half of my time, emotions, and money. If i had gone along with the second option i stood to lose everything i had worked for. My mate attraction attempts would have been for nothing.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      while men definitely do mate poach it isnt the same thing as preselection, nor do guys think a womans hot BECAUSE shes with a guy (a “hot” one at that).

      No, I don’t mean that guys want women when they see them with other men.

      I know that guys talk amongst themselves, and often rank girls. While tastes vary, they will often come to some kind of consensus about who’s the hottest or the best catch. That’s the preselection. A guy who might be more attracted to Girl A, who his friends don’t know, but whose friends do go on and on about Girl B – is likely to give Girl B his attention. It’s male intrasexual competition at work, and he derives status if he gets the girl that all the guys want.

      I’ve actually heard stories of high school knuckleheads rejecting girls because “Stacey likes me and everybody thinks she’s super hot, so I’m going to choose her.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Buss makes a powerful argument about mate rentention in his the evolution of desire. The scenario w/ms brown sugah in central park was centered mainly on this fact. By that time i had invested more than a year and a half of my time, emotions, and money. If i had gone along with the second option i stood to lose everything i had worked for. My mate attraction attempts would have been for nothing.

      I assume you’re aware that there are Game bloggers who advise precisely the opposite. That is, it’s easier to maintain attraction in your mate if you produce anxiety, jealousy and suspicion in her so that she fears losing you. This is accomplished by overtly courting the attention of other women in her presence. Roissy’s “instill dread” post was the origin of this claim, but others have run with it as well.

  • VD

    I should mention something my wife pointed out to me once. One reason that “man-whores” have great appeal to non-sluts is because they are safe in a very specific way. A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone. They can’t do this with men who might get fixated on them and insist on relationships that will interfere with their educations or careers.

    We’re not talking about sluts here, obviously, because sluts openly engage in their activities. Many women, far more than you might think, have had a sexual relationship or two that they kept secret from everyone, including their best friends, even if they were single. It usually ends when they get into a serious and exclusive relationship. Maintaining such secret uncommitted relationships is quite typical of women between 18-25 who are in their “having fun” years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone.

      That makes sense, and I imagine much marital infidelity meets this description. But I think very few women are wired to pursue casual sex as an end in itself. It may happen (oops!) but that’s not the same as going out to acquire a ONS.

      They can’t do this with men who might get fixated on them and insist on relationships that will interfere with their educations or careers.

      This is actually frequently mentioned by college women in studies as an advantage to hooking up. It’s not a secret, they’re happy to hookup openly, but they specifically mention avoiding commitment while they are focusing on education and career. In a way, it’s more about avoiding commitment-oriented guys during their “work” years.

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    Not only can I assume to know what you would do in certain situations, I can likely do so more accurately than you can. You’re a woman, so you’re dynamic and heavily influenced by emotions, hence the oft-heard “hamster” metaphor. This means you are not a particularly reliable judge of what you will or will not do in a hypothetical situation, regardless of how strongly you happen to feel about something at the moment. Should your feelings change, you will feel just as strongly about your revised position, and if you are anything like most women, you may even deny that you ever felt differently.

    So you proclaim to know the extent of my moral character and integrity, just because I’m a woman and there are women out there who happen to conduct themselves as the lowest denominator of morality? How is that fair or accurate? You can’t make accurate statements about me based off of your observations alone.

    I know you doubt all women’s ability to be introspective, but surely you can acknowledge that there are significant differences between individuals in any population.

    Perhaps you will. Perhaps you won’t even have the chance to violate them. But I note that the boundaries you have set for yourself still permit you to have sex with him, simply not when he is in, or was very recently in, a relationship. What is clear is that you are a) attracted to him, and b) would be at least potentially willing to get together with him so long as it is not “right after” he goes back on the market. What you have not grasped is that this tends to support the position that women are attracted to social proofed studs, they are not repelled by them as is so often claimed. Also, if you are already attracted, the chances are nil that you could withstand a focused campaign on his part.

    You quite wisely don’t want to be harem member or rebound girl. Your desire to avoid that trumps his attractiveness at the moment and is a credit to your good sense. But it’s also apparent that it wouldn’t matter to you if he had been with 10 women or 100, you are attracted to him, in part due to his degree of social proof. Given that you’re already attracted, do you think you would cease to be attracted to him if his N > 10? Or >30?

    The boundaries are more than him just being in a relationship. I have already stated that I make it a point never to date the ex’s of women that I am friends with or acquaintances with. I know his girlfriend personally. I wouldn’t think to date him. That’s her turf. Even if they break up, it’s still her turf, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. For you to question the strength of my character and to suggest that I would engage in morally questionable behavior insults me. I conduct myself as a lady at all time. I’m not out in the world spreading my legs for any man who will have me. I have always stuck by my words/convictions, and this situation is no different.

    Finally, his “social proof” is not what it attractive to me about him. I thought he was attractive from the first moment I saw him. He didn’t have women circling around him, and it made no difference. He was attractive to me simply because he is attractive. He’s very good looking, kind, and charismatic. I’d notice those attributes about him whether or not women were in the picture at all.

    Also, there is a limit to male promiscuity that I can tolerate before I decide it’s better to cut my losses. A male with more than 20 sexual partners is suspicious to men. A man with more than around 35 is a no go situation. I’m interested in long-term relationships. I just don’t think that a man with that many sexual partners could ever be as faithful as I’d like him to be. Granted, there are exceptions to that scenario. I’m sure there are men out there who have high partner counts who can be faithful and devoted in a monogamous relationship, but I’d rather not take my chances.

    One guy I worked with a few years ago had a reputation for being fairly promiscuous. When he met me, he told me that he had just broken up with his girlfriend and that he was interested in me. I turned him down directly. The fact that he was fresh out of a relationship was a red flag, and the fact that he was promiscuous was another. Over the next few months, he kept coming at me. I told him that I only thought of him as a friend because I could never take being in a relationship with him seriously. During those few months, he told me about a few of his escapades with women. I asked him whether or not he thought I would be impressed with his escapades, and he said yes. I told him afterwards that I wasn’t impressed and that it only made him seem immature. Finally, he ended up getting back with his ex girlfriend at some point. I knew it was time to cut contact with him completely when he asked me if I’d be interested in a threesome with him and his girlfriend.

    Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hope:
    While i would mos def agree that a man going solo to pickup women can and does work, i wouldnt say its the “best” way of doing so. Lets face it-most guys simply dont have the pickup skills to get er done all on their own, and while the vast majority of guys arent good wingmen, its better than nothing when you arent that good to begin with. Rolling dolo only works if your game is at least moderate preferrably airtight. The best players have always rolled alone because of the fact that if anyones gonna mess you up its your homies. Good wingmen are very hard to find.

    @peppermint panda:
    I would take any self report with a brick of salt. We have reams of evidence courtesy of game circles of guys who simply arent getting laid at all, and the sexless marriage is real even by the way you described it BECAUSE THE SEX ISNT SATISFYING TO THE MEN.

    Indeed this was the crux of athol kay: for men sex must be frequent. Moreover for most guys its also got to be at least somewhat freaky-now thats a lodaded word because “freaky” can mean lots of things to lots of people. But at bare minimum, frequency of sex is a major concern to most guys, AS IS THE MATTER OF THEIR WIVES LETTING THEMSELVES GO. Steve harvey even addresses this in his collossally successful “act like a lady think like a man”. I think most of the problems there would go away overnight if the women looked good and bent over and cracked a smile-another reason why “girl game” is kinda ridiculous.

    At any rate i reiterate:

    The real story in places like nyc, is the massive numbers of guys who are involuntairly celibate, are defacto eunuchs-they get NOTHING AT ALL. That theres not even a cultural vocabulary to discuss this simple numerical fact (women far outnumber men in nyc), really tells you everything you need to know about the efficacy of evopsych…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Question:

    Do you think profiling works? If so/not, why?

    O.

  • Ted D

    Obsidian – “It almost seems like a competition thing; “girls got game too!”-when in truth, once one understands evopsych which is what informs game to begin with, the whole thing sounds downright silly.”

    I’m not interested in some competition, but “girl game” seems like an easy label to wrap Susan’s post in. Call it what you want, but to me it really is the female equivalent to the part the man is supposed to play in a relationship. We’ve had years of feminist agenda telling young women that acting in the ways Susan describes go against their best interests, which is total BS. Sure, women should not treat every man she meets like this. But, as I said, someone needs to tell these young women that the man they intend to marry and be with is NOT just some guy on the street. There is no need for her to keep up the “feminist defense” with him, if indeed she chose well anyway. Far too many women take the ball busting bitch at work approach and apply it to their personal relationships. Unless she is a ball busting bitch at heart, why go through all that?

    And lets cut to the chase. If men were still raised to be “real men”, we wouldn’t be talking about “game” for men either. After all, “game” is simply a way to teach men how to do the things we used to learn from our fathers and other male role models before they were removed from families by legal force, or made into betas themselves. There is no denying that this dance requires two partners, and each one brings their own set of moves to the floor. “Game” reflects the male moves, so what do we call the female moves? Femininity works, but I think that would be shot down fast by the feministas of today…

  • Ted D

    Obsidian – “Do you think profiling works? If so/not, why?”

    Wow, you really do like to stir the pot. :-p

    I’m interested in seeing where this goes though. I get into “profiling” debates with folks a lot, and I’m interested in seeing what Sassy and the rest here think on it. I have a strong opinion on it, but it isn’t a popular one these days…

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ted:
    The idea that game is this overarching response to feminism et al is a powerful meme inside manosphere circles but doesnt have much pull in seduction circles. There is no evidence mystery or others came up with game as a response to feminism etc. If you have any such evidence i sure would like to see it.

    I think my question posed to ms sassy really zeroes in on a few things among them her convo w/vd. I dont want to spoil it for anyone plus i want to give her a chance to respond so lets see what happens…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Im trying to understand what the problem was w/the bf you lost your virginity to then; by your own account he was nice and a good bf; just that the sex leaved a lot to be desired. Am i missing something here?

    Please explain?

    Thanks!

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      There were two clues in my description of my first bf:

      1. He was not intelligent. I knew that from the start, and to be honest, just kind of put that to the side because he had very high social status and was well liked by everyone. I remember being particularly turned off when he said he had no opinion re the Carter vs. Ford election. He did not cultivate a life of the mind. I believe he went into sales and has done well, which doesn’t surprise me. But I have always preferred very intelligent men, and have never thought seriously about a guy who wasn’t very bright. I can recall his talking about marriage, and knowing that would never, ever happen.

      2. He was no emo. As you know, the female fantasy is to tame the alpha and reveal his simmering, vulnerable, emotional core. I learned something important very early. There is no emotional core. Yes, alphas have feelings too, but their emotional life is tamped down and/or stunted. He was a good man, but emotionally reticent. So I tamed the alpha, only to find out “there was no there there.”

      These two things in combination made him something deadly: BORING. Nice, kind, handsome and boring. It was like dating a Ken doll.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, on whether some girls take a whirl with alpahs and then move on to betas:

    I would say that was the case with my two serious GFs (pre-wife). The first, the one I had through most of college, had “hooked up” a little avant la lettre, mostly in HS. She had a low number but it was all casual, I think all ONSs no less, which led to a smallish reputation. (Back then N<5 could get you called a slut, innocent times!) By the time we started dating it was all at least two years behind her and AFAIK she had been totally chaste during the intervening time. I think she glommed onto me in part because I was such a non-threatening beta. She definitely would have married me.

    The other one I never did ask for detail but she had lived in France for several years and I know she had one older, suave assholic frog boyfriend. She had a rough time with him and I don't know who dumped who but I'm sure I was a lot easier for her to handle. Heh.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    I have no hate for PUA, I have woken up to the truth and it is not pretty …

    Have you ever seen the videos of Nick Vujicic?

    He is a motivational speaker who has no arms and no legs and by the logic of the PUA community he would be doomed to singlehood or (at best) ending up with Jabba the Hut. He is actually married, his wife is hot, and if you see him talk you will understand why …

    While he accepts his limitations he doesn’t make excuses, he has purpose to his life, has immense self confidence, a non-needy sensitivity and a resilient spirit; from my experience women respond to this better than just about anything else. Even though only 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 women would accept his physical limitations, the fact that his personality allows him to (essentially) bat 1.000 with these women meant that he did very well.

    Much like how a large portion of the 25% of men who are constantly single have a bunch of mental, emotional, social-status and physical issues preventing them from finding partners to have meaningful relationships, a large portion of the 25% of women who are constantly single have a bunch of mental, emotional, social-status and physical issues preventing them from finding partners to have meaningful relationships. Being that the women the PUA community is approaching do not have obvious physical flaws, they’re disproportionately made up of women with mental, emotional, and social-status problems.

    In spite of all the claims that they’re getting the “best” women, the PUA gurus never seem to settle down. Being that I’ve met enough amazing women in my life to see the benefits of settling down with one when you find one, don’t you think it is a little odd that the PUA gurus are far more likely to have an emotional break-down caused by an emotionally toxic stripper than to settle down?

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    Re: from alphas to betas

    Have you read the, rather recent, forum post titled “My fiance found out about my recent past. What can I do?”

    I think it illustrates how women can go from alpha-seeking to beta-seeking.

    How she has gone from having “crazy” threesomes with her ex, to having a “perfect” fiancé within a year speaks a thousand words. (clearly the second guy was probaby “marriage material” all along, cause she was able to have him purpose within a year)
    She even says that her fiancé is truly who she wants to marry. And that she doesn’t want have anymore “crazy” sex (including threesomes) with her now fiancé.

    I think the post perfectly illustrates how she seeking ‘A-particular-guy’ for “fun.” And seeks ‘B-certain-guy’ for marriage.

    And, of course, now that her fiancé has found out, he wants to have some “crazy” sex with her. (he doesn’t want to be treated differently)

    I think it’s absolutely ridiculous for her find it OK to use A-guy for “fun” and then expect ‘B-guy’ to be satisfied with what’s left. She’s not getting married to ‘B-guy’ to “share her life” – she’s using ‘B-guy’ for a certain particular means. (which is probably strictly procreation) Who knows what ‘use’ she’ll have for ‘B-guy’ afterwards.

    Why does she find it acceptable to separate ‘fun’ with ‘marriage’? She clearly has separated the kind of men she would select depending on which she wants, at the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Have you read the, rather recent, forum post titled “My fiance found out about my recent past. What can I do?”

      I think it illustrates how women can go from alpha-seeking to beta-seeking.

      I disagree. Her fiance clearly makes her tingle and has from the start. She makes clear she was rather surprised to hear he had a lower N than she did, and that he had never been casual. When she figured that out, she was clearly anxious to keep the truth from him about her own past.

      I think this happens a lot – despite claims to the contrary, we can’t tell very easily who’s alpha and who’s beta. Lots of betas are handsome and lots of alphas are ugly. Especially early in a relationship, a girl is going after a handsome guy she has chemistry with. In my experience, that’s often a beta. (See Vox Day’s definition of beta for more on this – they do fine with women, for the most part.) *Most* women get their dominance need met via adequate self-confidence in a guy. By the way, not sure if you crossed paths with Jesus Mahoney here, but at 28, with a N of 2, he learned that his fiancee had a similar secret past and he ended the engagement. Clearly, that woman, who had a count of 24, had been with him for four years and was still highly attracted to him when he ended it. So I don’t think these labels are always extremely useful.

      (Note: This is not me telling you to be beta and not to worry about being dominant. Although you will find that your female friends are not representative of most women.)

      In the ‘sphere, the generally held, indeed “clung to” belief is that women really want alphas, ride the alpha cock carousel for 10 years or more, then one day they make a left turn and snag some beta schlub with a decent paycheck. They only turned left because a right would have taken them into the parking lot of the cat rescue shelter. I’m sure it does happen, but not nearly as often as men claim. I think it’s far more common for a woman to get into her 30s and realize she’s probably not going to get that alpha after all, so she remains single.

      Recently, someone posted a link about this – and when I dug through the numbers, what the story said was that 10% of divorced women weren’t in love when they got married. That’s 4% of women who marry and less than 2% of college educated women. The numbers just don’t add up to support the claim. Of course, if you’re the poor bastard whose wife has confessed that, it sucks.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Do you think profiling works? If so/not, why?

    I wouldn’t say that profiling works. I’d say it’s effective in what it intends to achieve, which is to provide a general guideline in predicting the behavior of any given population. Having said that, it has a glaring flaw to it. It can’t accurately predict the actions of or represent all individuals of a given profile.

    Taking the actions/behaviors of a few individuals of a certain population that has a unifying trait (Ex: race, gender, SES, sexual orientation, etc), and attempting to extrapolate those actions/behaviors onto the entire population often leads to drawing incorrect conclusions about some people on the individual level.

    The people who are lumped into a profile that don’t fit the extrapolated actions/behaviors that are attributed to everyone in the profile group are falsely labeled and classified. Not taking the differences among individuals of any population into account is inaccurate. Some great examples of the generalizations that stem from profiling that miss the variance within a given population are as follows:

    1. Men cheat.

    2. Black people are on welfare.

    3. Women shoplift.

    4. Gay people are promiscuous.

    All statements above are incorrect when extrapolated to every individual in their respective populations. There are indeed individuals who adhere to the extrapolated actions/behaviors attributed to their profiles, but not all do.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!

    Bad Ted you are not a true friend till all of you get an STD from the same woman. Get in line with the times! :D

    Being an introvert has many perks, the biggest of which is I never had the awkward social circle sex situation come up, and I’ve never had to be friends or friendly with an ex’s new girlfriend.

    I think Susan is right about this only affecting certain circles, I’m an extroverted and I only know one case of this “passing on the same mawhore” in a group of friends in all my life. Most of the time the manwhore is really careful on keeping his girls on the dark about each, other. Maybe one could know about one or the others if her interest and they both knew it, but as a general rule distance was kept to avoid problems, at least IME.

    In my opinion, your female “friends” are actually cockblocking you. Because you think “pre-selection” is the only way to get new girls, and because these girls are probably physically attractive, you hang onto the “friendship.” They aren’t doing you any good. \

    I agree with this. Like mentioned before you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince/princess but if you find yourself only kissing frogs you might be living on a swamp…move out!, YMMV. :D

    A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone. They can’t do this with men who might get fixated on them and insist on relationships that will interfere with their educations or careers.

    I cosign this. The only time I had see this preselection effect was thankfullly the only woman I know personally that had cheated on her husband. She slept with a known manwhore that she heard from many other women that he was into married women and had been more years, he is married himself, he started to hit on her heavily sending her really sexual emails and doing the whole “If you are in a sexless marriage I can help you with that” I did warned her that a married woman shouldn’t be talking sexually with any other man and that she was playing with fire, yeah she slept with him half a dozen times till he got sick of her and dumped her for new flesh, so it does happens but is the first and only time I had seen it and God has mercy of me is the last time. Some things are better left to the imagination.

    Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “It’s not a secret, they’re happy to hookup openly, but they specifically mention avoiding commitment while they are focusing on education and career.”

    But I don’t get this at all. Can you explain? I’ve been in LTRs since I was 16 years old, and even when they were at their worst, it wasn’t like having a serious GF was sucking all my time and energy away from more “important” things. What is so damn hard about going to school and/or work while being in a relationship? In my experience, being with someone actually helps me get more shit done in fact! If nothing else, I have someone else to share the daily crap tasks with so I can dedicate more time to important stuff.

    So, what is it? Even the idea that “I will be moving away after college” is BS to me. So what? One of you finds a job somewhere, and the other comes with and finds one there as well. Its like everyone is letting their career totally dictate their life even before they get started. Why? Aren’t we all supposed to be working on a better work/life balance?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      What is so damn hard about going to school and/or work while being in a relationship?

      That’s a good question. Maybe it’s cognitive dissonance on the part of women, as a response to the majority of guys saying they want to avoid relationships to have fun. For the record, it’s not the majority of women who feel this way – these are the girls who actually prefer hooking up to a relationship. Divorce in the family is also correlated to this view, perhaps reflecting a cynicism about relationships in general, and how much energy they take.

      So, what is it? Even the idea that “I will be moving away after college” is BS to me. So what? One of you finds a job somewhere, and the other comes with and finds one there as well. Its like everyone is letting their career totally dictate their life even before they get started. Why? Aren’t we all supposed to be working on a better work/life balance?

      Boomers have put a lot of pressure on their kids. We’re aware that we came of age during a new rash of opportunities for women, and we expect a lot of our daughters. I think you’d be hard pressed to find 10% of parents of college females who would feel good about their daughter up and moving to wherever Johnny gets a job. I know I wouldn’t have.

      The numbers tell the story. College educated women marry at age 28. Why would a woman of only 21 make a major life decision while banking on her college bf? The chances of their actually marrying are very low.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.

    That is the way human brain works. If he have had other women upping the price of admission he might had though you were just doing that not that you really were not going there no matter what. I mentioned that the married guy that chased me the most started with “offering beers” and ended up tricking me into having dinner with him (I left after drinking a soda and paying for it myself) and then making a party at his luxury house so I will see his wealth and his a lot more hot than me wife, maid and constantly talking about having another child in front of us. I didn’t got it at the moment since all this displays only made me more disgusted by his insistence but I guess he was biding better thinking a low class girl like me wouldn’t be able to resist a “wealthier man mistress position and the chance of upgrade at some point with a kid”, but of course he was totally wrong, so yeah some men do really think that all women are the same and all it takes is finding the right price to get us to open our legs willingly.

  • ali

    Reading these comments makes me want to be a white woman. Unlimited sex, pickup men easily, desired by every race, have kids with black, white, hispanic men and still end up with a nice guy when im done partying at 40. Happily ever after. If that doesnt work, since I have been with so many men, I will adopt a baby from Africa. White women sure have it easy

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “so yeah some men do really think that all women are the same and all it takes is finding the right price to get us to open our legs willingly.”

    For sure. Many of them are writers in the ‘sphere. :-P

  • ali

    Women can pickup any guy they want due to their Vagina. Keeping a man requires personality. This is where it evens out for men and women. But strictly speaking of sex, if black women and white women just want sex with as many men as possible, the white woman will have numbers higher than wilt chamberlin. Women dont need pickup lines or dhv since men are easy. Approach a guy tomorrow and just say hi, call me! That woman has a date. If a guy does this, women get extremely picky. Only way women will have to work to getting a date is if the men ratio significantly plummets. The way the world is going, world war is right around the corner. Mostly men will be in the front lines. When there are 200 women for 1 man, than women will realize they need a personality and cant use their looks to win a man over. She is competing with other women. Right now women have no competition, but when they do its worse than men. Just another season of the bachelor

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I wonder if a true alpha is ever “boring.” Also, he was the one who brought up marriage. Maybe we need a term for alpha on the outside (handsome, althetic, conventionally successful) but beta on the inside (dull, predictable, eager for committment). Sort of like a fancy looking car with a 4-cylinder, low HP engine.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Susan, I wonder if a true alpha is ever “boring.”

      Are you serious? I believe IQ is negatively correlated to testosterone. Hence the term “dumb jock.” The Tom Bradys of the world are rare. I know my husband is always pleasantly surprised and admiring when a pro athlete is articulate. On the other hand, classical violinists are rarely burly guys with prominent brows.

      Of course there are smart alphas and stupid alphas and interesting alphas and boring alphas. What sets them apart is dominance, not smarts.

      Obviously, I’m talking here about natural alphas, not acquired alpha traits.

  • J

    She even says that her fiancé is truly who she wants to marry. And that she doesn’t want have anymore “crazy” sex (including threesomes) with her now fiancé.

    Yikes! That’s some story! My guess is that it’s over with the fiance and that she should just accept that and move on. As to having threesomes with him and some other girl, she should refuse. It won’t restore his love, will make her feel worse about herself, and will only complicate the life of some other girl who will then have her own ugly story to hide. She could apologize for misleading him, explain her fears of telling him the whole story and then refuse to further degrade herself. That would be the healthiest and most responsible response, but I doubt it will get him back.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    Some great examples of the generalizations that stem from profiling that miss the variance within a given population are as follows:

    1. Men cheat.

    2. Black people are on welfare.

    3. Women shoplift.

    4. Gay people are promiscuous.

    Hmmm, if you change #4 to “gay men”, though, you’ll have an example where it’s a good working rule and the reason it is happens to be tied to the origin of #1. Flagging would not work if that variant isn’t true at all and it wouldn’t be codified if it wasn’t true over a broad enough population.

    Interestingly, if you changed #4 to “lesbians are promiscuous with commitment” I’d also thing you have a good working rule. There is a reason the phrase “no UHauls” is seen in lesbian personal ads and why UHaul jokes are popular. Again, if it wasn’t true over a broad enough population it wouldn’t be as common.

    Then again, I consider those too things just another demonstration of the true of the men want sex/women want commitment assumptions we work on here at HUS.

    Some generalizations are useful as long as you understand they are just that, when to apply them, and when not to apply them.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    In the ‘sphere, the generally held, indeed “clung to” belief is that women really want alphas, ride the alpha cock carousel for 10 years or more, then one day they make a left turn and snag some beta schlub with a decent paycheck. They only turned left because a right would have taken them into the parking lot of the cat rescue shelter. I’m sure it does happen, but not nearly as often as men claim. I think it’s far more common for a woman to get into her 30s and realize she’s probably not going to get that alpha after all, so she remains single.

    I agreed until the last part. Change that to 40 and that she’ll tell herself she never wanted the alpha at all or keep it at 30 and that she’ll tell herself there aren’t any alphas anyway because all men are children.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Thanks for answering. A few followup questions please:

    Why is it so vital for women to “tame the alpha” to get to his “emo” core? Yes we know thats the female fantasy; the question becomes why?

    It seems youre associating intelligence w/beta male traits and dull-wittedness with alpha male traits and that would be a very dangerous mistake to make. I wonder why you are doing this?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Why is it so vital for women to “tame the alpha” to get to his “emo” core? Yes we know thats the female fantasy; the question becomes why?

      You know the lock and key metaphor for men? That a man wants to be the only key that can open a lock? It’s the same with women, but instead of unlocking sex, we’re unlocking emotional investment.

      It seems youre associating intelligence w/beta male traits and dull-wittedness with alpha male traits and that would be a very dangerous mistake to make. I wonder why you are doing this?

      No, as I just said to Escoffier, I think all permutations exist. However, as you’ve observed yourself, the guys in the far right tail of the bell curve are unlikely to be very good with women, right? The ones who are also more likely to be on the spectrum for autism-related behaviors? The logic flows from there. I believe you’ve been driving this point home yourself in stating repeatedly that black women don’t select intelligent men, they select thugs.

      Where I do think there is a clear, discernible difference is in the emotional realm. I think it’s fair to say that as a rule, alphas have lower emotional intelligence. Women want and need a touch of that “female trait” in their men, so that we can relate. Literally. That’s the way we communicate, and a relationship without emotional exchange and intimacy is very unsatisfying for women, as a rule.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, I have read that the highest correlation between IQ and biological factors is the IQ of the mother. Also, higher exposure to testosterone in utero is correlated with higher IQ:

    http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/03/14/testosterone-hormone-linked-to-higher-iq/24379.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      That’s true, Simon Baron-Cohen has studied autism extensively, and calls it an “extreme male brain,” referring to prenatal exposure. I wonder how that relates to heavy exposure during puberty. While there are exceptions, one rarely hears about a nerdy athlete or thug physicist.

      I confess I know little about testosterone exposure, in terms of timing, levels, and in response to different kinds of activities. I wonder if there’s one source that talks about all the different aspects.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh, @peppermint panda:
    Exactly what game writers are you referring to when you make your claims and assertions? Yrpuas whole point in being here and posting a tonne of links to reputed puas was to prove that the vast majority of them do nothing of the sort both of you are talking about. So some meaningful distinctions need to be made here. Please explain?

    Second, pp, one of the puas metioned in “the game” was badboy, who was injured in the kosovo war and permanently walked with a limp w/the aid of a cane. He was killin on on the niteclub scene.

    Third, quite a few prominent game writers/teachers have indeed settled down; david dangelo recently got married; juggler got a ltr and retired; mystery settled down at least for a while; some deal with style; and the list goes on. Moreover i dont see *why* its so very important that game writers be married or otherwise in ltrs to begin with; it certainly didnt impact my decision to learn from them. Its like demanding that your professor be married or “settled down” before you will even listen to what they have to say. Ridiculous.

    Lastly: ms walsh why do you keep mentioning roissy/heartiste/the dark lord of sith game in relation to my experience in central park? For that matter why is there such a huge amount of time devoted to discussions in or about the manosphere in general? Why do they matter so very much to you-even in the face of countervailing evidence to the contrary from other sources like again yrpuas pickup links? Is adam lyons (whos also married i might add!) really on par with roissy?

    Please explain?

    Thanks!

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Lastly: ms walsh why do you keep mentioning roissy/heartiste/the dark lord of sith game in relation to my experience in central park? For that matter why is there such a huge amount of time devoted to discussions in or about the manosphere in general? Why do they matter so very much to you-even in the face of countervailing evidence to the contrary from other sources like again yrpuas pickup links?

      Because it’s directly reminiscent of debates that have been held in these parts recently. I am struck by the difference in your approach, simple as that. I’m also somewhat confused. In this part of the ‘sphere – let’s say that group that Ferdinand used to link to – Game overlaps heavily with MRA concerns and is mostly anti-feminism in its orientation. As a result, a lot of misogyny creeps in and colors both the discussions, and the application of Game itself.

      It may be that yrpua linked to Game bloggers with a different view, IDK. I don’t overlap or cross paths with them, and have little interest in reading any more about PUA. From what I’ve gathered based on the writings of ex-PUAs, including Ricky Raw, Mark Manson and even our own Peppermint Panda, there’s no consensus among those guys either. It was very clear that yrpua and I did not agree on the moral questions around applying Game, as he stated clearly that he is in favor of anything that works, and opposed to that which doesn’t. Efficacy without ethics is a dangerous thing, IMO.

      Personally, I don’t care whether bloggers are in relationships or not. Since mine is a blog about relationships and how to get them, I have little use for guys focusing on how to get sex while avoiding them. I don’t hate them, I just have nothing in common with them. It’s exactly the same way I feel about sex-positive feminists. Those aren’t the people I’m writing for.

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    The fact that her fiancé made her tingle isn’t very suprising since from the sounds of it she was already in seeking-marriage-material mode by that point.
    That still doesn’t change the fact that she “tingled” for her ex, and once “tingled” for crazy threesomes, and chose different guys to satisfy different “tingles.” And now what to know how to keep her fiancé without having to re-do what she once “tingled” for. (while with her ex)

    Is that not picking certain guys to satisfy different “tingles”?
    (cause that was what my point was)

    The fact that she tingles for her current fiancé is completely mute, since it was what she tingled for that’s what *changed*.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      I think that women don’t change their attraction triggers, they change their own behavior, or strategy. So the ex was someone she found attractive, and in her mindset then, i.e. what she was willing to do, she went along with threesomes, etc. Then she decided to “settle down.” We know that the first guy was sexually adventurous – but that’s not how I define alpha. He could be a total creep. The second guy was ostensibly equally attractive, but did not choose promiscuity – but that’s not how I define beta. IOW, it’s a mistake to assume the first guy was more attractive than the second. In fact, I suspect the reverse is true, which is why she is so upset that she’s blown it. This is a quality guy, and before how she’s been with skanky losers.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I was not joking. My read of the ‘sphere is that part of the definition of alpha is “exciting.” Exciting guys can still be dumb. Think of a drummer who rides a Harley. Can be quite exciting even if not smart.

    Your guy sounds like he was not merely dumb but also dull and rather committed to you, which does not sound very alpha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My read of the ‘sphere is that part of the definition of alpha is “exciting.”

      I think the ‘sphere definition of alpha is “everything that I am not.”

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    Thanks for answering. A few followup questions in light of your responses please:

    Would you rather live in 1992 harlem nyc, or, in 2012 harlem nyc-and why?

    Men commit more violent crime than women in general; and black men commit more violent crime than all other groups of men in general. True or false?

    There are many good individuals in phillys “the badlands”; or in compton ca; or in “the brick city” (newark nj). Given these facts would you move to any one of these locations? Why or why not?

    Who is more likely to commit a suicide bombing-an arab muslim, or a white seventh day adventist? Would you be more concerned about the former or the latter on an airplane fight you took?

    Again, thanks!

    O.

  • ali

    Tom Leykis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Vyd2mGsHA&feature=related

    women agreeing that women should pay the bill, approach, rather than just looking pretty and wanting everything handed down to them. Chivalry was when women couldnt work, vote, go to college. We are equals now. But you still want us to open the door? Will you open the door for us? Because we are the MAN we should open the door. Since I am the Man, I want to have sex with you after the first date. Sexism?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Yes the key/lock metaphor makes sense to me thanks for explaining.

    However it must be noted that i never said or suggested who black women choose or why; only asking whether they selected for intelligence and how we could confirm or deny this.

    Yes its true that ive often spoken about men on the extreme right end of the bell curve in terms of iq and the tradeoffs inherent in all that. Its widely known that women ideally want a mix of traits in a man, a kind of “sweet spot” btw brains, brawn and as you put it, “emo”.

    Just curious…i hope you dont mind my asking…

    Do you think sexiness has anything to do with iq? If so/not why? I ask because of youre saying how bad the sex was w/your ostensible alpha bf…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Do you think sexiness has anything to do with iq? If so/not why? I ask because of youre saying how bad the sex was w/your ostensible alpha bf…

      I think that female attraction triggers vary quite a bit here, probably dependent on the intelligence of the female herself. I don’t think the sex was bad with my bf because he wasn’t bright – I think it was his lack of emotion. In my experience, the best sex happens when two people are really into one another, including the emotional piece. I’ve always claimed that a person can learn everything they need to know about good sex in one weekend with a partner they’re crazy about (and vice versa). It’s the ability to anticipate, read and and give to the other person that sets off fireworks. And IME that just isn’t possible with a stranger or someone who’s not emotionally connected. Even though men are more capable of separating the emotional and physical experiences, I always got my best reviews from men I knew very well. That’s also why sex gets better for new couples after the first couple of times, I’d imagine. The first time is never the best.

  • PeppermintPanda

    Obsidian,

    My objection is the claim that women are exclusively attracted to (so-called) Alpha males …

    You can test it yourself if you’re lucky enough to be an uncle to a child under 6, but demonstrating comfort and skill with young children is generally highly attractive with women; and there have been studies to demonstrate that women are the most attracted to men for LTR who are the most interested in having children ( http://www.naturalchild.org/research/women_attracted.html ). The most successful experiences I ever had with women was when I took my 3 year old niece to the mall and had women practically throw themself at me.

    If women are attracted to these men for traits that are obviously not “alpha” it demonstrates “alpha” isn’t everything …

    It is my personal believe that both men and women determine what kind of relationship they’re worthy of at an emotional level and the qualities and attributes they find attractive in members of the opposite sex reflect this. Being that it is an emotional decision and not an intellectual decision they may not consciously aware of this decision. Women who feel unworthy of commitment seek out men who are unwilling or unable to provide commitment (so called Alpha males); women who desire and feel worthy of commitment seek out men who can provide it for them (so called Beta males).

    Women who want a LTR but do not have any prospects may seek out a short term partner, and women who want a sort term partner but can no longer get an acceptable one may enter into a LTR, but both of these situations are remarkably rare for women with substantial SMV. It has been my experience that few LTR oriented women will leave their current relationship unless they have one (or more) prospects first

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda:
    I would like to know, precisely, which pua/game writer has specifically stated, that being good with kids is NOT a alpha male trait? Please explain?

    I very much would like to see that quote…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    If you are indeed struck by the difference in my approach, it is because i refused to limit myself to a small but admittedly vociferous corner of the internet and instead decided to right to the source and heart of game to know precisely what i was talking about/doing and why. It seems that a lot of people have their minds made up not just about certain sectors of the internet but about game itself and seem to like those aspects of the internet because they kind of confirm what they really want to believe about game in the first place.

    Moreover i find your remarks about yrpua to be interesting since women do the exact same thing you claim hes asserted; how many women-and that includes the many who makeup your reader base-have put efficacy over ethics in their own dating lives? How many women have lied about their age? How many women have presented either no pics or deceiving/misleading ones of themselves in online dating venues? How many of them have told an unwanted suitor that they had a boyfriend when in truth they didnt just so they could get rid of them? How many have given out false phone numbers? And of course how many have accepted meals/drinks from guys knowing full well they werent going to reciprocate sexually?

    It occurs to me that the chief and major reason why women are so deadly focused on “deception” and “manipulation” is because of just how much they engage in it themselves all the time in ways big or small-yet they dont seem to be all that interested in discussing it and when they do its always with an air of “yeah, but…”. There is no “but” if the goal is decency and fairness and justice. Clearly though by all accounts we cant say this.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It occurs to me that the chief and major reason why women are so deadly focused on “deception” and “manipulation” is because of just how much they engage in it themselves all the time in ways big or small-yet they dont seem to be all that interested in discussing it and when they do its always with an air of “yeah, but…”. There is no “but” if the goal is decency and fairness and justice.

      I agree 100%. I can’t speak for other women, but I expect to be held to account for any deceitful or manipulative behavior. And I won’t excuse women for doing any of the things you mention. I don’t mean to suggest that either sex has cornered the market on manipulative tactics.

      However, for the record, I will say that a woman gives up more when she is deceived into having sex – a permanent blot on her record, so to speak – than a man who gets flaked on, buys an expensive dinner, etc. In fact, IMO there’s no comparison.

  • Rachel

    I think it’s a great if a woman takes the initiative and asks out a guy she is interested in. I do that all the time or else I’d never date a man who likes me because of shared interests and personality. At this point, every long term relationship has come out of me either asking the guy to coffee, or just giving encouragement (acting interested in them). Yes, a man can refuse, but the more a woman looks, the more she is able to pick out the men who would be compatible with her personality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rachel

      Welcome, thanks for commenting. It sounds like you’re already doing it right!

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    One of the reasons I hate the Alpha/Beta false dichotomy is because there are no clear definitions of what it means …

    On one hand you have evolutionary psychology mental masturbation where an Alpha male is the supposed leader to a theoritical despotic tribe that we have no evidence to suggest that ever existed; and there are no known tribal cultures that match it. And, on the other hand, we have people who describe an Alpha male as (essentially) being a man with self confidence.

    Those that prescribe to the despotic leader favour a variety of qualities that demonstrate physical and social dominance to lead to being in an elite male; and these qualities are in no way compatible with being good with children.

    In contrast, the self confidence definition is more correctly labeled an “emotionally healthy male” rather than an Alpha male because it does not demonstrate that you are elite … Most men throughout history would have had self confidence because they lived in a society where they were a respected member of society with a clear purpose simply for surviving to adulthood.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Also, what “recent debates” are you referring to? Was i a part of said “recent debates”? And given that roissy/ferd/mras dont seem all that terribly interested in the aims and interests you have, you have yet to clearly answer WHY do you spend such an inordinate amount of time discussing them. If youre not interested in what yrpua has offered due to their supposed (you dont know because you havent
    checked it out) interest in commitment free sex, why are you so interested in a corner of the internet that has the same intent and goal presumably? It doesnt add up.

    Moreover i see you conflating misogyny with anti feminism and both with mraism and im not sure thats a good idea. One can be both and not the other two and so on. More precision is needed here.

    Im just having trouble why you spend so much time on a piece of the internet that by your own admission has little if anything to do with your own stated mission.

    Please explain why this is?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      what “recent debates” are you referring to? Was i a part of said “recent debates”? And given that roissy/ferd/mras dont seem all that terribly interested in the aims and interests you have, you have yet to clearly answer WHY do you spend such an inordinate amount of time discussing them. If youre not interested in what yrpua has offered due to their supposed (you dont know because you havent
      checked it out) interest in commitment free sex, why are you so interested in a corner of the internet that has the same intent and goal presumably? It doesnt add up.

      Because they come here in droves and I have to deal with them. I could make my life easier – much easier – by banning them. Instead I choose to censor only those who are rude and uncivil in their communication.

      As for recent debates, no they did not include you, but I’ve been fending off the haters with determination for months now. No need to dredge all that up, just suffice to say I’ve felt surrounded at times here at HUS by men who would defend their right to instill dread, even in marriage. Fortunately, I believe that is in the past, and the air is safe to breathe again.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda:
    Im still having trouble with your presentation because you have yet to precisely identify specific voices within the seduction community that you take issue with. As for evopsych stuff, buss is highly recognized in that sphere. If you disagree with him please point out specifically where how and why?

    Thanks!

    O.

  • J

    I’ve actually heard stories of high school knuckleheads rejecting girls because “Stacey likes me and everybody thinks she’s super hot, so I’m going to choose her.”

    I’m sure that most of the female posters here have been on the receiving end of that. I know I have.

  • J

    I confess I know little about testosterone exposure, in terms of timing, levels, and in response to different kinds of activities.

    IME, testosterone makes young men between 13-16 insufferable little punks in response to any kind of activity suggested by a parent. Not sure what else there is to know. ;-)

  • PeppermintPanda

    Obsidian,

    Point me to any voice in the PUA community that could not be summarized with either:

    1) Work on your own shit, develop self confidence, and find a purpose to your life (I generally agree with this, David DeAngelo was like this); for the most part “Alpha male” has no place in these discussions.

    2) Mental masturbation about evolutionary psychology and mythical despotic tribes (these people are morons, Mystery was big into this and it is a constant theme of bloggers)

    3) Trick and tactic based … (this is worthwhile to learn basic flirting, and basic discussions of kino have value, but this is mostly driven by people trying to avoid getting their shit together. There are countless videos on youtube focused directly on this).

    Ultimately, I think the vast majority of men looking for help would be better off with a basic education in flirting and kino to go along with substantial confidence building; and the community should drop the mental masturbation and elitest bullshit.

    Most men would be better off being asked “What is your greatest insecurity at this point in time?” and then developing a battle-plan to combat that insecurity. If they are afraid to go to clubs because they can’t dance, teach them how to dance. If they think that they are too out of shape get them into a gym and teach them how to dress themself to minimize physical flaws. and so on …

    As much as I think David DeAngelo is among the best for this kind of stuff his focus on NLP and guru-isms dilutes the core message.

    On the other hand, Mystery’s focus on mental masturbation and tactics makes him (in my opinion) the worst popular voice.

  • J

    In my experience, the best sex happens when two people are really into one another, including the emotional piece.

    Cosigned.

    It’s the ability to anticipate, read and and give to the other person that sets off fireworks. And IME that just isn’t possible with a stranger or someone who’s not emotionally connected.

    I’ve never had sex with anyone who wasn’t bright, but my vibe is that ability to do that comes with intelligence. i always picture less bright guys as just hammering away.

    That’s also why sex gets better for new couples after the first couple of times, I’d imagine. The first time is never the best.

    I think this is also why in a good marriage, sex gets better with the years. I had expected that aging would affect sex a lot, but I think the years of imtimacy and just knowing each other really offset aging a lot.

    However, for the record, I will say that a woman gives up more when she is deceived into having sex – a permanent blot on her record, so to speak – than a man who gets flaked on, buys an expensive dinner, etc. In fact, IMO there’s no comparison.

    Cosigned. I’m surprised that men don’t understand this more.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan/Cooper
    “I disagree. Her fiance clearly makes her tingle and has from the start. She makes clear she was rather surprised to hear he had a lower N than she did, and that he had never been casual. When she figured that out, she was clearly anxious to keep the truth from him about her own past.”

    The problem isn’t just whether or not the tingle is real based on whether it is an alpha/beta thing, it is more about her ability and intent to separate sex (even specific sex acts) and relationships and what that implies: settling (down).

    While I go back and forth on how rare this situation really is overall, I can say I have experienced this situation multiple times. These situations can involve the wild sex past (though I’ve never had a woman admit to this) and sometimes it is a post-divorce-college-breakup fuck everything that moves experience, sometimes it is purely about #’s, and sometimes its about the ‘types’ of men they have chosen. In my admittedly limited recent experience, I’ve seen versions of these 100% (4 for 4) of the time. This includes women between 24 and 39. All of them had ridden the carousel at some point in the past. Most were not even alpha chasing or whatever, but still strung together combinations of ONS, fuck buddies, and vacation flings in at least one span of being single. All of them represented as conservative in terms of dating, physical progression, etc. And were very sweet, relationship-oriented women. I believed (and still do) that they really do value relationships and intimacy, but from my perspective that was not enough to overcome the sense that I was fulfilling the settle-down-and-breed role after they were done ‘having fun’.

    I have no doubt that I tingled all the right things so my thoughts weren’t focused so much on whether or not I made them tingle *more* vs their past, but the more I learned about their pasts – and how incongruent they were with not only my past choices, but what they expressed in terms of their own values/desires – what they want NOW, the more I became suspect of the underlying origins of that tingle.

    For me it was not so much about the honesty of what they felt for me, because I really do think they found me to be a ‘catch’ and I think I consider myself beta, when in fact I may have more natural alpha than I realize. In any case, perhaps women re-calibrate such that they can have the same level of tingle over a very different man/circumstance. Either way, there was never a doubt that I didn’t curl their toes. It was more about the rising tide of resentment that happens when you sense that they (perhaps too easily) have shifted between sex for fun and sex for keeps – and/or that they can even consider the concepts of “fun” and “settling down” as mutually exclusive. Or that they have represented a take-it-slow, good-girl approach when in fact they have been “fingered on the dance floor” or “done the walk of shame” or “used to be a slut” or “had a period of about 1 year when I was having sex but not interested in relationships [read: ONS], but never two guys at the same time” (lol), and lastly that the values I hold relative to intimacy and relationships really don’t matter that much. The fact that they have been – and since they wrongly pegged me as at least a former – if not current lady’s man, are obviously still ‘ok’ with guys who have rather extensive casual sex histories is not lost on me.

    The strange thing is that I’m not one to really press for information about the past. Most of the stuff was volunteered. Partly because they assume I have done it and partly because they have been told that it is hip or cool or attractive or empowering or whatever to be able to go toe-to-toe with guys in this kind of stuff.

    So I think part of the disconnect is from the feeling that my past choices are not valued as much as I want them to be – I want it to mean something that I have subordinated immediate gratification among many other things for the long-term. And a big part of it is that fun/settling dilemma. The latter of which seems to become more complicated with age. So early on men are not just looking for reasons to disqualify a women as relationship material, we are also looking for indications that we are not just auditioning for a role in the second act of some play. I can say that particularly in the 30 and older crowd – and definitely in men who have been through a divorce, the antennae are tall and tuned to look for indications of settling. For right or wrong, the segregation of sex acts, the flipping switch of views/beliefs/actions re: casual sex, and any outright statements regarding ‘settling down’ or ‘wild’ pasts will get us tingling, in all the wrong ways. Now I think the situation is greatly amplified if she also has a tendency toward the alpha asshat, but I don’t think that is what drives the issue.

    I could be way off here, but I think the issue is less about the Alpha=tingle and more about that sense of settling down; the fun=past.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve never had sex with anyone who wasn’t bright, but my vibe is that ability to do that comes with intelligence. i always picture less bright guys as just hammering away.

    I had a gay male friend that told me that to cure my “ability to control myself” I should have had sex with a brute. According to him those are the best. I never got it.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Yes we absolutely agree that women pay a much higher price to have sex-no argument there-and if women were just to be honest about that, that this fact informs why theyre so much more focused on “deception” and “manipulation” on the part of men (ie game etc) that would be something i, for one, could respect and live with.

    But, you see, the big problem is that they dont frame it in that way; they frame it in terms of whats ethical or not-not what is self-serving, even if whats self-serving is completely understandable.The bottomline is, the women engage in deceptive and manipulative behavior directly arising out of their sexuality and exploiting mens susceptibility to it, yet they simply dont see that as big deal because, as you noted, it aint that big deal to men. That may be, but the principle of ethics IS important and on this measure i can be very confident in saying that overall women simply do not care about ethics as much as they claim they do. They care about men being ethical simply because women have more to lose.

    Two big different things and its very important to make that distinction; its also very important why men in particular, MUST hold women accountable when they try this kind of crap.

    Game teaches a man how and when to stand up for himself, for principle and for the rule of law.

    O.

  • Cooper

    Great post, Tasmin

    “there was never a doubt that I didn’t curl their toes. It was more about the rising tide of resentment that happens when you sense that they (perhaps too easily) have shifted between sex for fun and sex for keeps – and/or that they can even consider the concepts of “fun” and “settling down” as mutually exclusive.”

    “So early on men are not just looking for reasons to disqualify a women as relationship material, we are also looking for indications that we are not just auditioning for a role in the second act of some play.”

    And for young man, it’s like all the girls aren’t finished having fun yet (be use their entitled to ‘their’ fun) – as if the “marriage material” guys should have no issue with waiting for the ‘Act II’ to begin.

    Why do some people (and I think there is both men and women) think that there is some sort of fun that must be had before committing to a relationship?
    The mentality just presumes casual=youthful fun, and LTR=boring/ ‘save-it-for-later’ – the mentality in of itself kinda determines that the person won’t be happy in a LTR, cause once they choose to be in a relationship they’ve, in a way, consciously chose what they already consider “boring”.
    No wonder some people get bored in their marrigewhen they always thought of everything else as the “fun.”

    Maybe it’s just because of my parents, who married at 19 and spent 15 years having fun together before having children, but why do people figure they can’t have ‘fun’ in a relationship?

  • Mike C

    Recently, someone posted a link about this –and when I dug through the numbers, what the story said was that ****10%****of divorced women weren’t in love when they got married. That’s 4% of women who marry and less than 2% of college educated women. The numbers just don’t add up to support the claim. Of course, if you’re the poor bastard whose wife has confessed that, it sucks

    Susan, that was me that posted that link. Here is that link again….the percentage is 30% not 10%

    http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/married-wrong-husband

    Thirty percent of now-divorced women say they knew it was wrong from the start.

    As far as the “ride the carousel in your 20s with alphas and settle for a beta later” meme, I’ll quote Ms. Jennifer Gauvain from the article:

    “Then there’s the usual suspect: the biological clock. Clark’s was ticking and she was ready to start a family. “The number 30 reads like an expiration date for unmarried women,” says Gauvain. Not only are your baby-making years racing by, ****but you’re leaving behind your 20s —a decade of experimentation, one-night stands,**** and making mistakes, professionally and personally. In the next decade, you’re seen as an adult and can’t do those things.”

    That is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak. I can’t say to what extent Ms. Gauvain speaks for the prevailing attitude of most women. My guess is the number is smaller than most manosphere bloggers espouse, yet much larger than what you appear to believe in terms of what percentage the meme accurately captures.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Thanks for refreshing my memory. Yes, the number was 30% of women have doubts when they walked down the aisle. But if you read the article, two thirds of the examples reflect not that the woman was not in love, but that she feared her fiance was an asshole who would not be faithful. That’s a very different story. One can certainly question the wisdom of those women for marrying cads, but it hardly supports the claim that women marry men they don’t tingle for. If a third of the women with doubts have them because they are not in love, that’s 10% of divorced women and 4% of women who marry.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    About ethics and relationships/gender dynamics, I have never resorted to lying or deception, and I don’t like it when other people do it to me.

    - Lied about age or weight: no.
    - Presented misleading pictures online: no.
    - Said I had a boyfriend when I didn’t: no.
    - Gave out false phone numbers: no.
    - Accepted meals/drinks from guys without sexual intention: no.

    I tried to be honest, forthright and open with prospective men, particularly when things got more serious. I volunteered information about my past, and I’ve never had a guy say after the fact, “You never told me that!” I did not spring surprises on people like that.

    When other people say “anything goes” and play selfish and dark games, I just shrug and move on. It’s not worth trying to convert people who pefer to be that way. Men who dig my goodie goodie vibe dig it quite a lot, so it was a win-win situation for me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Men who dig my goodie goodie vibe dig it quite a lot, so it was a win-win situation for me.

      Great strategy here! It’s a filter and a built in reinforcement. I believe that the vast majority of men will reward this behavior.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    To illustrate my last point a field report will suffice:

    I once got into a ticklish situation with a young lady whom i had designs on; after observing her for a few months i made my patented approach, and we met for lunch almost every day, in full view of everyone else where we were, for about a month before i stepped off for a few weeks; when i returned, she hugged me (full body i could feel her nipples, her pelvis to mine) and, she kissed me on the cheek-twice. Again in full view of everyone else.

    I suggested that we should keep in touch and she requested my number which i gave. She then gave me hers.

    About a week later i took her by the hand and led her away from a group of people she was talking to; and thats when things went downhill.

    She tried coming at me with the friendzone crap but i busted her with the fact that we always sat/ate alone, that none of the other fellas had her number, that no one saw her hug/kiss other guys and, that all our interactions were caught live on tape (the place had cameras). Strange behavior for a gal who swears up and down not to dig a guy like that hmm?

    She tried to argue that i had overstepped my bounds by assuming that i wanted something more; indeed she asked me “did i ever say i was interested in you?”.

    To which i responded: no, you didint. But you didnt say upfront that you just wanted to be platonic friends either. Why must i not assume one interaction, but the other?

    She was so livid about my questions, my catching her in her bs and my *refusal to backdown or apologize for showing sexual interest and then escalating it* that she actually tried to get me fired (this took place at work). The problem with that though, was that i was very careful to do everything in clear view of others (witnesses) in front of the security cameras (video evidence) and to carefully document everything on my phone (saved all texts).

    The result?

    My mgr-a woman-flatout told the woman that she wasnt going to fire me, in part because i had no bad record w/women, that the woman in question didnt have any authority whatsoever in hiring/firing anyone, and that the mgr herself witnessed on numerous occasions this woman and i hanging together in what any reasonable person had to conclude was more than just a “friendly” way.

    The lady was determined though-she hectored the director of hr until he came to me. I and my mgr relayed what happened, and he smiled. He said that she was and i quote, a “whack job” and dont sweat it; i wasnt going to be fired.

    And i wasnt. I worked there another half a year until i got a new assignment.

    She expected me to go all beta and apoligize for being a man; moreover she thought that because she was a dime that i would let her getaway with murder.

    She was wrong on both those counts as well as being wrong about trying to get me fired.

    Which makes her a three time loser.

    O.

  • J

    I should have had sex with a brute.

    Eeeeewwwwww.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Eeeeewwwwww.

    My thoughts exactly. :p

  • Ted D

    Tasmin – spot on post. Brilliant.

  • Catalina

    @ali
    “Reading these comments makes me want to be a white woman. Unlimited sex, pickup men easily, desired by every race, have kids with black, white, hispanic men and still end up with a nice guy when im done partying at 40. Happily ever after. If that doesnt work, since I have been with so many men, I will adopt a baby from Africa. White women sure have it easy”

    I resent that statement lol

    white women do not have it easy, esp. now that asian women are the new “trophy wives”, and white women got a bad rap because of their promiscuity.

    Then again, I live in Toronto, Canada, where we have many immigrants esp. from asia. I don’t know the population situation wherever you are.

    But yeah, I resent that statement–yes, black women have it harder (I don’t know about middle eastern ones). But things are not easy for me. not when I have to compete with asian girls that don’t need diet to stay skinny lol and whose hair is longer and thicker than mine. Plus, only beautiful women have it easy, regardless of race.

  • Catalina

    lol I wish I didn’t have to live, because I’m not beautiful.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh, @peppermint panda:
    Ms walsh it occurs to me that your life *would* have been much easier had you simply deleted/banned the “manosphere invasion” since by your own admission their message had little to do with yours here at hus; it then remains something of a mystery as to why you would continue to entertain such a large group of people for so long when they are fundamentally out of step with that youre all about. It just doesnt add up.

    Peppermint, you seem to have deepseated problems with pickup that go beyond mere academic stuff; wanna talk about it? I for one find nothing whatsoever wrong with using routines, canned openers/lines and the like-ive used quite a few on purpose myself-to prove the efficacy of pickup both to myself and to others. I dont rely on them exclusively but i do make use of them quite a bit. I like the fact that game has a linear, step by step program that guys can use to get what it is they want from women. Why is dangelo better than mystery to you? I say its the other way around.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      then remains something of a mystery as to why you would continue to entertain such a large group of people for so long when they are fundamentally out of step with that youre all about.

      Well, you’re someone who enjoys a good debate, and we have certainly had some interesting ones here. Also, the truth is that some of my best commenters of both sexes found me via the ‘sphere. In fact, more than a few found me via Roissy. Go figure. Some have been hostile, but most have been great additions to HUS. It makes sense that men trying to puzzle out the SMP might read both Heartiste and HUS, and I don’t want to draw such a clear line in the sand that those guys feel unwelcome.

      It’s taken me a while to learn who to engage and who to ignore. Who to allow, e.g. yrpua, and who to ban. Since my slow progress in this area hurt no one but myself, I don’t feel the need to apologize or explain any further.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms hope @ms walsh:
    Whats interesting about ms hopes statement/defence is the fact that she felt compelled to make it in light of the fact that by her account she is a happily married woman. Of course all women dont do what i said just like all men dont rape; yet women are hugely concerned about rape to the extent that we have now all but eradicated certain forms of it and other forms are in considerable decline. Can we say the same about the myriad of ways women engage in all manner of deceptive and manipulative sexual behaviors aimed towards men though? To ask the question is to answer it.

    The idea that because women pay a higher price in terms of having sex it is therefore understandable why they focus more on deception and manipulation from men is not a legitimate reason as to why women and by extension society fails indeed refuses to take principles of ethics fairness decency and justice seriously especially as it relates to men. If a man buys an expensive dinner for a woman and she doesnt sexually reciprocate its seen by woman as the guys own failure to do his homework or being slow on the uptake. But if a woman puts herself in a bad situation at a frat party and winds up in a sexual situation shes viewed as a victim no matter what. As ive illustrated earlier women can and will attempt to use their sexuality to get away with things that if you dont call them on it will only get worse. Buss talks about just how often women exploit male sexual psychology all the time in his textbook for evopsych for students. As ive said the primary reason why women focuses so much on “deception” and the like is both because of the cost they pay in making a bad decision coupled with the fact that they as a group overall engage in such things themselves. Outliers like ms hope-commendable though they may doesnt change this fact anymore than my never having raped a woman doesnt change the fact that the issue was vitally important to them.

    So long as women as a group continue to find excuses as to why they dont take the concerns of men seriously ms walsh will continue to find her space “invaded” by the manosphere if not literally then in terms of their ideas continually seeping into this forum. Women as a group simply do not take principles of ethics sriously if they did they wouldnt do the things they do. They arent punished by the wider society nor are they punished by their social circle of friends. They arent called out on the carpet by other women and to be frank they arent called out by other men either. Men take being defrauded as seriously as women take being sexually deceived and it too has evolutionary roots. Why should we take the latter more seriously than the other? On what ethical basis does this line of thinking rest?

    O.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “So the ex was someone she found attractive, and in her mindset then, i.e. what she was willing to do, she went along with threesomes, etc. Then she decided to “settle down.” We know that the first guy was sexually adventurous – but that’s not how I define alpha. He could be a total creep. The second guy was ostensibly equally attractive, but did not choose promiscuity – but that’s not how I define beta. IOW, it’s a mistake to assume the first guy was more attractive than the second. In fact, I suspect the reverse is true, which is why she is so upset that she’s blown it. This is a quality guy, and before how she’s been with skanky losers.”

    I agree that it isn’t as simple as which guy was more attractive or who is alpha or beta. It is about the inconsistency or highly variant, malleable nature of her behaviors, e.g. “went along with threesomes”, “sexually adventurous”and/or “skanky loser” ex-BF’s or FWB or ONS partners, etc. that make it very difficult for a man with more consistent behaviors, choices, and thus values to reconcile what she really believes and desires with what he brings to the relationship (let alone her own past actions).

    But it should be noted that even if the alpha/beta thing isn’t the primary driver, there is definitely going to be some feeling of alpha-deficiency based on the fact that other men have “inspired” or “coerced” her into being “sexually adventurous”. Sexual or otherwise, men want to feel like they are the one who inspire. Whether it is as innocent as “trying new things” or sexually “experimenting” or other “adventurous” behaviors, men want to feel like they are the one. If not the one, at the very least one of… Which is why the next guy was pushing for some crazy shit too. It wasn’t that he wanted those things, but it was that he wanted to feel that he had the same kind of dominance, attraction, influence, appeal that the ex did.

    What happens is that he is left feeling that his choices, behaviors, beliefs have been devalued by her past choices and that he is lacking something – attraction or otherwise, that she (potentially) once valued more than whatever he brings. She can’t possibly value his choices as highly because she has indicated via actual behavior that those qualities are not rated very highly in making her choices. Even if she had to experience those things, those (possibly) skanky losers in order to solidify her preferences, beliefs, values – understand her attraction triggers, he will still have enough question/doubt about (a) whether or not she is done “learning”, (b) whether or not she really does care about his past choices, and (c) what other things has she – or will she need to learn through experience alone? that whatever seed of lagging confidence he had going in will sprout up in shoots of resentment through every crack in the relationship until one or both of them bring it to ruin. In terms of this relationship, she paid a very high price for her experience, but she will be better served finding someone with a more comparable past or that rare guy who just doesn’t care. I’m certainly not one, but I know they are out there. Though the ones I know tend to view sex as a sport; and they are all on varsity.

    The other thing that he knows, as most men do, is that most women do not need to “go along with a threesome” or string together spans of casual sex and/or loser-BF’s in order to figure out what they want and value. Sure, the more I talk with women about this stuff the more I realize just how few women take the time to understand their own motivations, let alone ponder the experiences of the men they seek (present company excluded), but that is a long way from getting schooled in the art of introductory gang-banging by a (maybe) loser. So he will not only feel that she is settling for him, but also that perhaps he is doing some settling himself. You see, he either has to lower the value of his own beliefs – how he has aligned his actions with his beliefs in the past or he has to devalue her based on her past actions that support a low price/value for intimacy. Thats the mind-F. Its a lose-lose.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      I cosign your entire comment.

      It is about the inconsistency or highly variant, malleable nature of her behaviors, e.g. “went along with threesomes”, “sexually adventurous”and/or “skanky loser” ex-BF’s or FWB or ONS partners, etc. that make it very difficult for a man with more consistent behaviors, choices, and thus values to reconcile what she really believes and desires with what he brings to the relationship (let alone her own past actions).

      Agreed, and just to be clear, I would advise any man against investing in that woman. As you say, I believe only a small minority of women would ever entertain the idea of a threesome (which is not to deny that in certain circles, many would). That’s one hell of a red flag, and should be a dealbreaker, IMO.

      My only point to Cooper was that this scenario is not necessarily a case of snagging a provider after she’s had her fun, as she seems genuinely attracted to and invested in the fiance. She doesn’t deserve him – she lied when he asked if any of her past actions might become an embarrassment. Considering that it came to light because the ex is in the same social circle (!!!) she was bound to be found out. I’m glad he learned before marrying her.

  • VD

    That makes sense, and I imagine much marital infidelity meets this description. But I think very few women are wired to pursue casual sex as an end in itself. It may happen (oops!) but that’s not the same as going out to acquire a ONS.

    I think you may have misunderstood me a little. I am specifically not referring to women who openly pursue casual sex or occasionally engage in one-night stands. These are not sluts. I am referring to the women of good reputation who, for one reason or another, do not want it to become public knowledge that they are having sex with a higher rank man without a commitment. This can be for reasons of education, career, infidelity, or even to just hide it from their beta orbiters; I have seen all four. “Secret relationship” is a better description than one-night stand as it is almost never just the one night and it is usually a known player that she has known for at least a little while.

    And some women will even continue these right up until their weddings. By which I mean showing up late at night after her own bachelorette party. There is one area where Roissy is absolutely right and everyone else has it wrong: most genuine alphas can tell you stories about well-regarded, supposedly well-behaved women that would cause most women and BETAs to curl up in a fetal position and refuse to get out of bed. The dark alpha’s contempt for and distrust of women in general isn’t always born out of misogyny or personal issues, but rather direct personal experience.

    Is it always justified? Of course not. But remember this: while the skilled tempter may be blind to women’s strengths and convictions and will be prone to misjudging women because of that, he always sees the weaknesses very, very clearly and knows how to play upon them. Not all women will succumb, but, and here is the key point, all are at least potentially vulnerable. Most especially those who believe they are not.

    You may not be vulnerable today. But you may be just a bad breakup, a disappointment at work, or even a rainy day away from being vulnerable tomorrow. And that handsome, charming predator with the slightly too-knowing eyes is always ready should that day come….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      I agree totally on the vulnerability of women to skilled tempters. And of course I’m horrified to hear of a woman who would be carrying on as she’s preparing to wed.

      Shortly after I graduated from college, Mary, one of my best friends got engaged to her college bf Bill (it was 1978, and this still happened occasionally). I was to be one of her bridesmaids. One night at around midnight, there was a knock on the door of my apartment. It was Bill, who I also knew, explaining that his car had broken down nearby and asking if he could crash on the couch and deal with it in the morning. Of course I said yes and made up the couch with pillow and blankets.

      I was awakened in the middle of the night when he crawled into my bed. Horrified (and frightened) I bolted upright and asked what the hell he was doing. He confessed the whole thing had been a ruse, and that he “needed” to have sex with me before he gave up other women forever. He unabashedly attempted to persuade me of this plan. I threw him out.

      I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband. They had five kids and have been married 44 years.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @vd:
    I dont know if you saw my series of questions on profiling to ms sassy or not but they were inspired by the exchange btw you two; she seemed to take great offence (the lady doth protest just a weebit too much?) at your “profiling” which even if wrong in her specific case(?) wasnt wrong in the aggregate.

    How do i know?

    Because, while i dont know or will in all likelihood ever to meet you in this life or the next, i do know that what you said to ms sassy, and your followup comments above about a “good womans” “secret loves” is 100% TRUE. And thats the big huge problem that so many women here either cant or wont get through their heads; indeed thats why ms walsh keeps getting “invaded” by elements of the manosphere-because theres a there, there.

    I can tell everyone here that some of thee most freakiest women ive ever had in my life, were the socalled “good girls”-church girls most especially. Nor am i alone-just about every guy here will either have directly experienced what im talking about, or knows a guy who did. “the bridges of madison county” just aint a quaint book/movie dontcha know.

    So, just wanted to give you dap on that and mad props for daring to speak on the truth brother. Keep on keepin on!

    O.

  • Kurt

    I think that a lot of women screw up by failing to do this – Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.

    I’ve stopped asking out women after a couple of dates despite liking them if they behaved like they weren’t that interested only to later find out long after that they really were interested. Some women don’t seem to understand that their “phone games” really piss men off – if you like a guy, answer the phone when he calls or return his call within a reasonably prompt manner. If a woman doesn’t do this, she needs to realize that most men will take this as a sign of disinterest.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kurt

      The book The Rules was instrumental in inspiring women to play endless mind games and pretend to be the least interested party just so that men could “enjoy the chase.” I hate to think how many relationships were sacrificed due to that stupid book.

  • Ted D

    Tasmin – Two for two. You have explained very clearly and intelligently what I’ve always wanted to put out there from my perspective. Seriously, you could have pulled that right from my brain.

    I don’t think women realize just how seriously some men take promiscuity. The only men I know that are more sexually conservative than I am are devoutly religious, to give you an idea of where my head is. I passed on opportunities to have casual encounters (and I don’t mean didn’t engage, I mean turned down direct requests for sex) even when single because it is something I am deeply against in principle. Then along comes a women that “had her fun” and she wonders why I might be upset by her past. I’m upset because her behavior not only goes against my own beliefs, but as you pointed out, there is a concern that her behavior devalues mine if I stay with her, because it means that even though I chose to abstain, she didn’t. And yet by staying with her I’m OKing her past, which to me negates all my past sacrifices. And even worse, I’m selling my values out for someone else.

    And it doesn’t get any easier as we get older. Women in their 30′s have been there done that, and then some.

  • Ramble

    Shortly after I graduated from college, Mary, one of my best friends got engaged to her college bf Bill (it was 1978, and this still happened occasionally).

    Susan, for whatever it is worth, I basically see this happen a fair amount today…but not in the same way.

    What I have seen, so far, are people date in college, keep dating for a few years afterward, and then get engaged in their mid-to-late 20′s.

    I mean, for many of them, even if they wanted to get engaged right after college, they basically would not have been able to afford to do anything anyway.

    =====================

    It seems like Bill was a head of his time. I mean, if you are going to be a douche bag, you might as well go all in.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What I have seen, so far, are people date in college, keep dating for a few years afterward, and then get engaged in their mid-to-late 20′s.

      I see this too, but not often. Last summer we attended a wedding of two 26 yo who met at college orientation, and have been together ever since. They dated for nine years before marrying. Some of that time was long distance while they worked in separate cities. Now they’re both enrolled in grad school (different schools and programs) in Boston. It’s remarkable to me, actually. They’re the only couple I know personally who have dated exclusively for so long before marrying in their mid 20s.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    ” (and I don’t mean didn’t engage, I mean turned down direct requests for sex)”

    LOL I reread this and it sounds very much like I’m bragging. I literally turned down two direct “have sex with me” type requests from women I’ve known. One was a semi-decent young girl that had some serious self-esteem issues and I think she just wanted the idea of a “good guy” to want her. The other was a VERY promiscuous women that was part of my extended circle of friends. She heard that I was newly single (after one of my LTRs ended) and had been recently “dumped” (I don’t know how she could have been dumped, according to her last FB she was only a piece of ass for him…) by a cad/PUA type and I found myself alone with her at the end of the night. She came on to me like a drunken sailor, and I finally just had to tell her there was NO WAY I was having sex with her. When she reached for my crotch I left.

    Sorry if I gave the impression that I ever had to beat women off with a stick. Like I’ve said before, I have been in LTRs since I was 16 years old, and the longest stretch I’ve been without a relationship is about 9 months. I never tried to “play the field” and never pursued anything casual because I don’t morally approve of it and for the most part didn’t spend much time going without sex in general. (in fact, I probably spent more time in my marriage with little to no sex than I did prior to getting married…)

  • Escoffier

    “I think the ‘sphere definition of alpha is “everything that I am not.””

    Meh.

    Look, there is no point in debating which bloggers who claim to be alphas actually are and which are lying. It’s not relevant. What’s relevant is their arguments.

    I’ve said before that much of what they are saying is something any non-moronic boy figures out for himself no later than 7th grade. At that age you generally know which boys around you the girls go for, which they shun, and which they “friendzone.” From those specifics you can generalize into types. And you know in your bones which type you are.

    So, yes, alphas are “exciting” for one reason or another. Staying with 7th grade for the moment, the boy with straight As and the good conduct award ain’t that. The kid in detention half the year … yeah, probably.

    Your guy, to circle back, sounds to me only superficially alpha. He had the looks and the conventional success but he lacked the behavior. It’s almost tautological to say that anyone who bores a woman the way he bored you, sexually and otherwise, can’t truly be alpha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      It’s almost tautological to say that anyone who bores a woman the way he bored you, sexually and otherwise, can’t truly be alpha.

      WADR, this makes zero sense.

      The reigning definition of alpha in the ‘sphere is “gets laid a lot by many different women” (or has the option to). My boring, athletic, handsome, not very bright college boyfriend met that definition and then some. After we broke up he cut a swath through the sororities that had me staring open mouthed. I believe he continued in that vein throughout his 20s. He is married to someone named Tiffany, which implies a much younger bride, lol. He was the alpha of fraternity alphas. Do you remember the video I posted of the “Professional” beach soccer player who shared his alpha male secrets? He got away with nuzzling crotches in public bars and brought women home regularly to his twin bed in his parents’ house. He was so dumb it hurt to watch.

      I have never heard from anyone but you the idea that alphas have good personalities, are smart, etc. Those factors are irrelevant to establishing dominance.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “I think you’d be hard pressed to find 10% of parents of college females who would feel good about their daughter up and moving to wherever Johnny gets a job. I know I wouldn’t have.”

    Well then this is where we part ways ideologically. I would MUCH rather my daughter pick up and move to a new area with a good man at her side, than to stay around me and struggle to find a decent guy to be with. Now I will say that before I would be OK with it, I would want to see some real commitment between them, ideally marriage. I don’t see what the fear here is? What is the worst that might happen? They may not work out, and she may find herself alone in a strange place. So what? Move home and start again. I will never understand why people get so tied down to a place that they make their own lives more difficult.

    If your daughter found a good guy, one that you honestly like, and he found a job out of state, you would be against her moving to be with him and possibly get married, settle down, the whole thing? I guess we really do put our priorities in different places. It seems to me that as long as they really are committed to each other, it makes sense for them to live where they can make the most money, not where they are close to their past. And sometimes it really is better to just go somewhere new and start over. They would need to depend on each other a good bit at first, and that should help foster a sense of closeness and bonding that might last a lifetime.

    But I’m the type of person that isn’t too concerned with what my children “do” for money. For sure I want them to have enough to live the lifestyle they want with minimal stress, but I won’t be disappointed if one of them decides to put family before career. In fact, in some ways, I hope they both do so. After all, your “career” only lasts until you die or retire. Your family lasts forever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      If your daughter found a good guy, one that you honestly like, and he found a job out of state, you would be against her moving to be with him and possibly get married, settle down, the whole thing?

      I don’t think people should relocate without a firm commitment to marry. A woman who does that is turning her life upside down, probably forfeiting her best job offer, leaving friends and family, etc. to probably cohabitate with someone she may or may not marry. And I think 21 is too young to make that commitment. The truth is that most kids coming out of college are far from fully matured.

      I think we have to remember that college relationships don’t look like they did a generation ago. Rarely does either party plan on marriage – it’s most common for couples to amicably break up at graduation, or within a year of trying to make things work long distance. You can wish it were different, but that’s the reality.

  • Ramble

    I’ve said before that much of what they are saying is something any non-moronic boy figures out for himself no later than 7th grade.

    Escoffier, I can usually see where you are coming from, but, with this, I absolutely disagree. Personally, I didn’t even start thinking about these things until the 8th grade, let alone have it all figured out.

    Also, in my experience, many of the cutest girls did not go for the “alphas”, but for the Zac Efron types.

    Many of the Alpha-iest guys I knew in Junior High were thugs, and thugs don’t do all that well with the hottest chicks.

  • Ramble

    I would MUCH rather my daughter pick up and move to a new area with a good man at her side, than to stay around me and struggle to find a decent guy to be with.

    Ted, I understand that you were responding to an off-hand comment, but, Susan did not say that Johnny was a good man.

    And, if this is happening right after college, we probably have never seen Johnny tested in the first place.

  • Ramble

    Ted, I want to add one more thing. “Struggling” to find a good man is not a bad thing is that is what she is genuinely doing. That is, she is actually working towards finding a good husband and father and not simply paying lip service to it while making excuses for her decisions (or making excuses for the idiot she is currently with).

    I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      “Struggling” to find a good man is not a bad thing is that is what she is genuinely doing. That is, she is actually working towards finding a good husband and father and not simply paying lip service to it while making excuses for her decisions (or making excuses for the idiot she is currently with).

      I’m working on a post about the benefits of dating, i.e. serial monogamy. In my view, there is a great deal to be said for dating as shopping for a quality partner. Massachusetts has both the oldest age at marriage and lowest divorce rate in the country – I’ve seen it is only 7%. I’m currently researching that to confirm it.

      People who want to get rid of frivolous divorce and at the same time eliminate dating are not thinking straight.

  • Escoffier

    Well I am much older and kids started to have crushes certainly by 7th grade back then. I can’t recall any parents who let pre-HS children actually date. But the more sophisticated or “fast” kids I grew up with were claiming to have BFs/GFs around that age, they just did not talk about it when adults were around.

    I’m not saying we had it all figured out. I’m saying that by that age I knew a few basic things:

    1) Which girls I thought were really pretty and hence was likely to have a crush on myself;
    2) Which boys those girls were actually receptive to/interested in;
    3) What those boys were like, character-wise and behavior-wise; e.g., they were good looking and athletic, by and large, but also they were cocky and outgoing. The latter traits seemed to help more, as we all knew some boys who were lousy at sports, not conventionally handsome, but in trouble all the time and “dangerous” in some way and the girls were all over them.
    4) Where I fit on the hierarchy.

    As I progressed through highschool, it all became clearer. We didn’t have the terms we have now but it’s quite easy to analyze it all in hindsight and see that it fits the game thesis very closely. With one huge exception, the girls were WAY less slutty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Your description of middle and high school sounds right to me, but cocky and outgoing does not equal interesting. Many of those guys were not interesting, and they got girls because girls didn’t care how dumb or boring they were – they were the popular boys. Of course the nerdy boys got ignored, and so did the nerdy girls. Even in 7th grade, 10% of the guys are getting with 10% of the girls, and that stays true through college.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    “I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.”

    I agree. But what I’m saying here is: college is NOT an excuse to skip having a relationship. Sure, things may not work out in the end, but so what? If the choice is between having random hookups for four years while you get a degree, and spending those four years with one person only to split up after, which do you think is more constructive if the end goal is marriage and a family? I get that people will not go without sex if they can help it. What I’m saying is, don’t. But, instead of being afraid of commitment simply because it “might now work out” after graduation, do it anyway. The worst case is it doesn’t work out, and they part ways. They both still got years of experience being part of a relationship, and learned something about themselves and what they want/need from a mate.

    If Johnny has never been tested, I would be a fool to think things would work out. But if my daughter spends more than a month with one guy, I want him in front of me ASAP so I can see what he is made of. I know that in the end I don’t have any legal say in her decisions, but I know beyond all doubt that my daughter does not like to disappoint her mother or myself, and that if we did NOT approve she would at least take our opinion seriously. She has demonstrated this with past boyfriends, and I can only hope that the trend continues.

    And yes, I am speaking very much in generalities.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      But what I’m saying here is: college is NOT an excuse to skip having a relationship.

      College is an opportunity to get an education, and that should be the highest priority of everyone there. Once you graduate, your highest priority should be putting that education to good use. That does not preclude a relationship, but it doesn’t emphasize it either.

      As a parent who values education and paid for it, I want my daughter to experience supporting herself, living independently, finding intellectual fulfillment, and selecting a mate very carefully. I have always supported gender equity, and this is where the rubber meets the road, I guess. If she does marry early, I hope she doesn’t start spitting out babies right away.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Escoffier – “I’m not saying we had it all figured out. I’m saying that by that age I knew a few basic things:”

    Well for myself I can say that this was a very confusing period of my life. I could clearly see what you describe above, but at the same time I was being told by older women in my life that this was all a ‘phase’ and that these women were just immature and didn’t really know what they wanted. So, while my eyes were telling me the assholes/jerks/jocks mostly got all the girls, I was being told it wouldn’t last. I guess either a young man believes what he sees, or believes what he is told. I unfortunately believed what I was told, because I couldn’t imagine those women lying to me. I now believe that they weren’t lying to JUST me, they were lying to themselves as well. I’d like to blame them, but it’s hard to feel anger when in many ways I feel bad for them as well. Of those women, only my grandmother managed to get married and stay that way until she died.

  • Escoffier

    I guess I was lucky because nobody was lying to me about women. For the most part, I figured out early that I was not anybody’s first choice so I dropped out of the competition. When I started to dip my toe in years later, my mother was quite candid about what girls are really like.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I know plenty of couples like that. Oddly, there seems to be stigma (outside of the heartland and religious colleges) against marrying right after graduation. But there is no stigma at all in starting to date in college, staying together for 7, 8, 9 years whatever, and then getting married at 27. The likely response to that is “Awwwwwwww!”

  • Ramble

    We didn’t have the terms we have now but it’s quite easy to analyze it all in hindsight and see that it fits the game thesis very closely.

    Escoffier, I can understand the Monday Morning Quaterbacking and being able to see Game concepts at work, but, still, I think it would be difficult for any guy who is genuinely interested in things (i.e. sports, STEM, etc. … though, not so much music) other than pussy to get a really good grasp as to what is actually happening.

    There are simply too many variables. Now, if you had said 17, and not 7th grade, then, I might not have been as critical.

    Also, I think one of the biggest variables is how much PC nonsense you were spoon fed and how much real reality you were exposed to.

  • Escoffier

    Well, like I said, and I don’t think I am an outlier, I could tell by 7th grade what kind of boys the girls liked. I also knew it wasn’t me!

  • Ramble

    But what I’m saying here is: college is NOT an excuse to skip having a relationship. Sure, things may not work out in the end, but so what? If the choice is between having random hookups for four years while you get a degree, and spending those four years with one person only to split up after, which do you think is more constructive if the end goal is marriage and a family?

    Ted, you are not making some sort of argument against sluttiness.

    While yo will get no argument from me, I feel that you have changed the point of the argument. That is fine, that is your prerogative, but I will let you go down that rabbit hole by yourself.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    Yes, the number was 30% of women have doubts when they walked down the aisle. But if you read the article, two thirds of the examples reflect not that the woman was not in love, but that she feared her fiance was an asshole who would not be faithful. That’s a very different story.

    You are correct about the EXAMPLES in the article, and also correct that marrying the “badboy” you think will reform is very different from marrying a guy you really don’t feel strong love and attraction for.

    If a third of the women with doubts have them because they are not in love, that’s 10% of divorced women and 4% of women who marry.

    All that said, obviously one cannot take the examples in the article and then extrapolate that to the makeup of the overall aggregate 30%. I know you know better than that when it comes to mathematical analysis.

    In my first comment, I had quoted Ms. Gauvain with regard to her characterization of “what the twenties were for and what happens at 30″. I noted in your response you didn’t address her comments at all. Just curious, do you have any thoughts on what Ms. Gauvain stated?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      n my first comment, I had quoted Ms. Gauvain with regard to her characterization of “what the twenties were for and what happens at 30″. I noted in your response you didn’t address her comments at all.

      This is Gauvain’s first comment:

      “Women are raised with an unrealistic impression of what love is supposed to look like,” says Gauvain. “Girls read fairy tales where the woman gets saved by the prince, and when they’re older, the same message is enforced through romantic comedies where love always prevails, despite impossible scenarios. So women learn that love can always work, even when it’s unhealthy.”

      That is a clear reference to women marrying unsuitable men, while in unhealthy relationships, i.e. cads.

      Here is her second comment:

      “The number 30 reads like an expiration date for unmarried women,” says Gauvain. Not only are your baby-making years racing by, but you’re leaving behind your 20s — a decade of experimentation, one-night stands, and making mistakes, professionally and personally.

      Here she is referring to the mindset of women feeling pressured, and rushing into a decision. That could be with men they aren’t really in love with, but it also includes men they know aren’t suitable, as stated above.

      Third comment:

      “Although women won’t say it aloud, there’s often a huge sigh of relief once they get their ring,” says Gauvain. “Getting engaged can be a triumph, and if he’s the wrong guy, the high from the attention of the engagement can minimize that fact.”

      …”But being so busy planning an over-the-top fete can overshadow a couple’s incompatibility,” says wedding planner Mark Kingsdorf.
      Just ask Christine Bereitschaft. Midway through her engagement, Bereitschaft started grappling with trust issues. Her fiancé was strangely private about his job, and her friends and family had been warning her not to marry him. She had a gut feeling that something wasn’t right, but she had no interest in listening to her gut — she had more important matters to tend to.

      Obviously, this too can apply to either kind of mistake, but the example given is of the bad guy, not the indifferent woman.

      All that said, obviously one cannot take the examples in the article and then extrapolate that to the makeup of the overall aggregate 30%. I know you know better than that when it comes to mathematical analysis.

      Wait a minute. IIRC, you implied originally that 30% of divorced women “settled” and married a man they were not in love with. The article does not prove that in any way. I have no idea what percentage settled vs. married bad prospects, but the article is definitely skewed toward the latter explanation.

      I did some additional research in hopes of finding more about her work. From an article at HuffPo:

      Based on my research, here are the five most common reasons cited for marrying the wrong guy:

      1. We’ve dated for so long I don’t want to waste all the time we have invested in the relationship.
      2. I don’t want to be alone.
      3. He’ll change after we get married.
      4. It is too late, too embarrassing and/or too expensive to call off the wedding
      5. He is a really nice guy; I don’t want to hurt his feelings.

      and

      And the million dollar question — why no men in this study? I chose to focus my research on divorced women. But I did talk to a lot of men along the way, too. And yes, men do talk themselves into marrying the wrong girl. What was interesting is that the men’s reasons for saying “I do” when they wanted to shout “I don’t” tended to be more “other-centered” than many of the women. They overwhelmingly cited a sense of duty, obligation and concern for their fiancé’s feelings as their reason for walking down the aisle anyway.

      Finally, Megan McArdle weighs in on Gauvain’s research at The Atlantic:

      I’m a little skeptical of this. People’s memories change–as Lori Gottlieb points out in Marry Him, scientists who interviewed couples in their first year of marriage, and then again seven years later, found that the happy couples had retroactively rewritten their meeting story to be more positive (love at first sight!) while the people who were having trouble, or divorced, now spoke about their meeting in much less positive terms. This isn’t necessarily fabrication; it’s just that we pick and choose what we recall, and those who are happy will selectively recall the best parts, while those who are unhappy will accentuate the negative.

      It should also be noted, for the record, that Gauvain is a MSW who conducts pre-wedding sessions at a Catholic church. She wrote a book, “How Not to Marry the Wrong Guy” based on emails and stories she heard from women she knew and women they knew. That doesn’t mean her research is not legit – I have no idea how she structured it. But it’s not exactly peer-reviewed academic research either.

      In any case, I don’t think the evidence supports your original claim that Gauvain’s research supports the beta provider meme.

  • Ramble

    They’re the only couple I know personally who have dated exclusively for so long before marrying in their mid 20s.

    Wow! Susan, while you and I are of the same race, similar religious background, somewhat similar education background and similar location (you moved to the Northeast, while I am from there {NYC metro, not Boston}), I sometimes think that we are living in different worlds.

    I have already known 4 couples who met in college that later got married. And, with an extra degree of separation, that number might increase from 4 to, say, 7 or 8 (I just met another couple this weekend at a party, though, they are now divorced).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Are those couples currently in their early to mid-20s? I know one additional couple that married after law school graduation. IDK, maybe it’s just me. As I said, MA has the highest age at first marriage in the US, I believe.

  • Tasmin

    @Ted
    Yeah, I’ve stuck to my values on several occasions as well. I suppose it is one small part of the red-pill process to come to terms with the fact that most women really don’t care that I didn’t shag those women. Turns out that other than being able to feel good about my convictions and discipline, there is really little value in saving intimacy for someone you trust and care about in a relationship. Sure, its “nice”, but far from important to them IMO. I have never seen it win out – that is, they either like you or don’t, for some wide variety of reasons in which that particular quality is easily lost in the noise (unless they are christian/virgins I suppose).

    The thing is that in my experience, much of what VD and Obsidian say above is true. The ‘opportunities’ that I declined were not drunk sluts at the club. They were ‘good’ women who were pleasant, smart, and attractive. One woman propositioned me a week before her wedding. She was a friend and I knew all of her friends (and fiance) and she literally asked me to plow her behind a tree in the back yard. Yikes. Interestingly, most of the women I declined were quite annoyed to find out where I stood on casual sex. I’m sure part of it was being rejected (probably because they didn’t believe me) – but part of it was also their own foolish realization that they had lumped me in with the typical assumptions that “all men are the same” and “all men want is sex”. I’m sure the realization was fleeting as most of them quickly found someone else to fill their void, if you will.

    I never felt empowered or any kind of ego boost from these situations because I never assumed it to be about me; I knew it was all about them. I found/find it disappointing to get the ‘wrong’ kind of attention/interest as well as increasingly disturbing to see what lengths some of the otherwise ‘good’ women will go to in order to fulfill their ‘needs’ in any given moment.

    And yes, as I get older I find this to be even more difficult because while I was in a LTR for 10 years, my view/values in this regard have fallen further into fringe territory. Even women who have not ‘slept around’ [sidebar: these days you have to define what this means, which says a lot IMO] have participated in an SMP in which sex (casual) is the preferred gateway to a relationship. So they can say they don’t believe in casual sex because their intent/hope was to form a relationship, but the fact that it doesn’t work 80+% of the time – or the guy had different intentions so they end up having a series of three week sexual relationships courtesy of Match.com before stumbling into a relationship for a while. It begins to feel like intimacy is valuable much like chumming the water is valuable in catching a fish.

    There are days when I want to say F-it and just be that guy that women expect these days. I’m seeing very little downside in it. What keeps me grounded is that I am an idealist so I cling to the belief that there are women out there who still value these same principles – through voice AND action. Perhaps in my own ways I am just as deluded in believing that as many women are deluded in believing that lowering the price of sex will somehow yield the high returns they feel entitled to.

    But then I have always wanted more than just sex. Which is probably what keeps me planted firmly in the beta camp.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Even women who have not ‘slept around’ [sidebar: these days you have to define what this means, which says a lot IMO] have participated in an SMP in which sex (casual) is the preferred gateway to a relationship. So they can say they don’t believe in casual sex because their intent/hope was to form a relationship, but the fact that it doesn’t work 80+% of the time – or the guy had different intentions so they end up having a series of three week sexual relationships courtesy of Match.com before stumbling into a relationship for a while.

      This is very true. There are lots of false starts with sex happening on date three, and there is no date four.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Let me ask you this then: what has been the big takeaway for you insofar as the manosphere overall is concerned?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Let me ask you this then: what has been the big takeaway for you insofar as the manosphere overall is concerned?

      There is no one takeaway or lesson. People get online to search for answers to questions and solutions to problems. Both HUS and the ‘sphere reflect that. They bring their concerns, their quirks, their personality traits and their baggage. As we all do. As for the bloggers, I don’t know them personally. All but a couple use pseudonyms. My advice to any reader, including people here, is to take advice from people who have what you want. I am continually amazed at how many miserable and unsuccessful people advise others. Caveat emptor. *shrugs*

  • Escoffier

    It’s not that they have good personalities (whatever that means) and it certainly doesn’t mean that they are smart.

    But if alpha has any meaning at all to the liks of Roissy, Roosh, etc., it is a set of behavioral traits that excite women’s attraction triggers. Boring is pretty much the anti-alpha in that sense.

    So, in your case, it could simply be that his looks were enough to fuel his success. Or–and I would view this as more likely–that you were an outlier in finding him dull. Most of the others were happy with his looks and probably thought he was interesting enough–for them.

    One of the ways I part company with game teaching is their insistence on the homogeneity of women. I think it’s useful to generalize about widely shared traits. But they often oversimplify and insist on saying stuff like, All women are attracted to the same things.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . Or–and I would view this as more likely–that you were an outlier in finding him dull. Most of the others were happy with his looks and probably thought he was interesting enough–for them.

      That is obviously true. My point was that by any available metric, he was alpha. And alpha does not always mean memorable in a good and exciting way. Players are notoriously bad lovers, at least while they’re in college. The female rate of orgasm in casual sexual intercourse is only 18%. That doesn’t mean they aren’t capable – it could mean they just don’t care. But the belief that the guy all the women want is good in bed? Not at all true, in my experience.

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian,

    The problem with canned techniques is they do not address the underlying problems that men, and only act as a band-aid. If you develop confidence and a purpose in life they’re also completely unnecessary and detrimental; after all, rather than having a natural flowing conversation with a woman and evaluating whether you should be spending any time with her, you’re trying to pull off a canned routine to impress her.

    First off using them is a sign of insecurity, after all if you were secure with yourself you would not need to impress the woman and you wouldn’t be afraid to be authentic with the woman. Beyond that, when you’re spouting canned routines to DHV you’re not evaluating the woman you’re spending your time with which is (in my opinion) far more important than gaining her approval.

    Essentially, Mystery’s mental breakdown is the perfect example why a focus on techniques rather than fixing your core issues is a problem. He spent years developing routines to act as a mask for his inner weakness, executed these routines to gain women’s approval without ever truly making them earn his approval, and let a toxic woman into his life which broke through his facade and destroyed him.

    Maybe I live in some odd alternative dimension but “Hi” generally works as a pretty good opener to a woman who demonstrate that they’re open to an approach; and listening to what they have to say and responding with humourous obeservations and true stories from my life generally works pretty well to gain further interest.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    I hate to think how many relationships were sacrificed due to that stupid book.

    I remember hearing about this book (dreck?) when it came out in the mid-1990s. Seemed like it was aimed at older women. Anyway, it’s a few decades too late. But given that a cottage industry of books appeared around the same time aimed exlusively at men (i.e. avoid relationships, seek only sex), any surprise? The marketplace of ideas is basically one reaction after another. I never found any real wisdom amidst all this commerce.

  • Ramble

    … leaving friends and family …

    Susan, while I don’t disagree with your comment, some girls follow the BF for that very reason, to leave their “friends” and family.

    Their friendships are not particularly strong and they don’t much like their family.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I started dating my wife in January (some years back). Around October I got approached about a job that would take me to another city. I learned I got the job in November. She said, I’ll go but only if you marry me. So, we rented a place and did all the logistical work and the got married in December at City Hall days before I had to report. We later had a nice wedding with guests and all that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Your wife was smart! She gave up a lot to follow you, and it would not have made sense if you weren’t sure about her.

  • Ramble

    Massachusetts has both the oldest age at marriage and lowest divorce rate in the country – I’ve seen it is only 7%.

    I believe that Mass has the highest percentage of College Grads who leave the state (soon) after they graduate. They have a lot of good schools around Boston and only so many high finance and high tech jobs to go around.

    I think that there is a fair amount of “skimming” that happens for college students.

    I also thinks that this relates to my previous comment about our backgrounds being similar, but our experiences being somewhat different.

  • Escoffier

    Wow, all you guys who are getting brazenly propositioned, I am way envious. That never happens to me. I think the only time it ever did was freshman year in college and the girl was so drunk I couldn’t even consider it. Also, I didn’t find her attractive at all. But even if I had, the drunkness was a deal-breaker.

  • Escoffier

    “I believe that Mass has the highest percentage of College Grads who leave the state (soon) after they graduate.”

    Sounds plausible, but how many of them were from Mass in the first place? There are more colleges per capita there than anywhere else in the country, so naturally kids are coming from all over and then they go home, or go somewhere else.

  • Mike C

    So, in your case, it could simply be that his looks were enough to fuel his success. Or–and I would view this as more likely–that you were an outlier in finding him dull. Most of the others were happy with his looks and probably thought he was interesting enough–for them.

    This is my take….especially after Susan made the comment that him not having an opinion on Carter versus Ford was a tingle killer. It is clear to me…and Susan can correct me if I am wrong…but it is clear that FOR HER being an intellectual type is a key to attraction. I don’t doubt that there are women who tingle for displays of intelligence and intellectual curiousity, but in my experienc they are a very small minority. In fact, I started having better interactions with women when I started to really ramp down my intellectual side.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is my take….especially after Susan made the comment that him not having an opinion on Carter versus Ford was a tingle killer.

      Haha, fair enough! I admit that when a guy tells me he doesn’t care about politics and doesn’t read the newspaper, I am truly repelled, even in platonic friendship. I have a brother who holds this view and it drives me crazy. I’d much rather spend time with someone who totally disagrees with me than someone who has no opinion. Having no opinion is just so boring. But you’re right, that’s just me.

  • Escoffier

    Ah, Susan, this is where you are different from a true anti-feminist. My wife’s highest ambition for our daughter is for her to find a good man and spit out babies. It is a matter of total indifference whether that happens early or late. I mean, mom wants her to go to college but after that she could not care less about a career.

  • Ramble

    Sounds plausible, but how many of them were from Mass in the first place?

    Fair point. But, are the schools in Southern California much different? Or, the schools around DC?

    I do think that Boston has a unique situation. Granted, most major metro areas have something going for them (i.e. LA is very different from NYC, which is very different, from DC, which is very different from Boston, which is very different from Detroit, etc.).

  • Escoffier

    As a general matter, with the exception of Stanford, most CA schools are drawing heavily from CA. Their reach is just a lot smaller. USC gets a lot of out of state kids, as to UCLA and Berkeley but way less than a majority. Then the Claremont Colleges also do. After that, it’s mostly local kids.

    DC really doesn’t have that many schools. G’Town and GW draw far and wide. GM is a state school. American gets a good mix.

  • OffTheCuff

    Vox: “A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone.”

    Nailed it. I know a few women personally who have exactly done this, and their best female friends (and naturally, husbands/boyfriends) don’t even know.

    Why do they tell me? I am the easy-going, nonjudgmental, while still being very sexual, friend. They know that a lot of their female friends will judge or use it against them. Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.

  • Mike C

    Yeah, I’ve stuck to my values on several occasions as well. ***I suppose it is one small part of the red-pill process to come to terms with the fact that most women really don’t care that I didn’t shag those women. Turns out that other than being able to feel good about my convictions and discipline, there is really little value in saving intimacy for someone you trust and care about in a relationship. Sure, its “nice”, but far from important to them IMO.*** I have never seen it win out – that is, they either like you or don’t, for some wide variety of reasons in which that particular quality is easily lost in the noise (unless they are christian/virgins I suppose).

    Tasmin, I’m sure you realize what you’ve described is an example of male projection. Because we value immensely what you describe in a woman for a LTR/marriage we assume that women by and large will place the same priority/emphasis. I think it was VD who somewhere correctly pointed out that rather than the golden rule assume the opposite when it comes to men and women. In my view, and in my experience where women will “penalize” your for sexual intimacy is if they witness you going for the really low-hanging fruit. It isn’t the casual sex itself you get penalized for…it is the WHO it was with.

  • Ramble

    They range from mid 20′s to early 30′s. If you include that extra degree of separation, I also “know” a few couples in their late 30′s.

  • Ramble

    As a general matter, with the exception of Stanford, most CA schools are drawing heavily from CA.

    Yes, but California is enormous and relocating from SF to LA is a big deal. Just as moving from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh is a big deal. It means taht you rarely get to see your family and friends.

    ======================

    You forgot Univ. of Maryland which is, trust me on this, DC centric.

    GM is a state school.

    So what. Lots of state schools get lots of out-of-staters. GM may not be a perfect example of this, but Univ of Maryland would be.

  • Abbot

    “Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.”

    Compared to men, women are much quicker to mistake another person’s feelings about them as judgements. It can perplex a man when a woman claims he is “judging” her just because he does not want to commit due to her prolific past sexual behavior. He knows damn well he is not judging her or could care less about what she has done. He just does not feel good about getting involved with her. It does not take much for a gaggle of “feeling judged” women to fume and rant themselves into a tirade leading to a campaign that includes new-age phrases like “slut shaming” and “sex positive” and whatever else makes them feel better.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    In my opinion the right man is worth WAY more than a good job. Most people nowadays change jobs multiple times, and certainly we’ve learned that companies are not at all loyal to the employee and will lay them off at any time for any reason. A good man who genuinely loves and cares about the woman is incredibly rare and will not be coming around a lot in her lifetime. She has basically a few shots at lifelong marriage, mostly during her 20s, and she has to make those shots count.

    When I was 25 I quit a very good job with benefits at a stable, large international non-profit near Chicago to move to Utah, without a new job lined up. My husband was starting grad school, so it had to be me who moved. It was a scary and risky thing for me, but if I hadn’t done it, there was no way we could have made it work long-distance. I’m pretty sure this move also factored into his decision to marry me fairly soon after I moved to Utah. Now I have a similarly good job and am married to the love of my life.

    Right after college is actually the perfect time to move to a new town because you have no job experience anyway, and networking won’t help you that much because most of your peers are in the same boat. If the guy has a job lined up there, he would be in a better position to help her network than her other friends, and he would have a job locked down and not see her as competition. So even from a practical career perspective, it’s a good idea to move with the college boyfriend after graduation.

  • Ramble

    My advice to any reader, including people here, is to take advice from people who have what you want. I am continually amazed at how many miserable and unsuccessful people advise others. Caveat emptor. *shrugs*

    Susan, on it’s surface, this makes sense, but not when you dig deeper.

    Think of how many women, who are happily married with a low number, got married to their HS sweetheart back in the bad old days.

    Exactly how much good advice would she be able to offer some well meaning girl trying to navigate this modern SMP?

    And, think about those slightly miserable adults that could warn younger generations not to make the same mistakes they made? Heck, isn’t that what made what’s her name famous…crap, the one you did a post on. Fuck, I can’t remember shit.

    Susan, tons of people end up with lots of success without really knowing how they did it. And, after they became successful, their then advice is often derived from a fair amount of self-congratulatory navel gazing.

    I would say this: look for advice from those that seem to genuinely want to help (and not make themselves look smart) and are offering *specific* advice.

    Generic advice is all too often either not helpful, or too easily misinterpreted.

    “Just be yourself”. Thanks.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    As you say, I believe only a small minority of women would ever entertain the idea of a threesome (which is not to deny that in certain circles, many would). That’s one hell of a red flag, and should be a dealbreaker, IMO.

    Interesting point about circles where it would be common.

    At least some of them are operating from an out of the mainstream world view. However, one thing that does happen is their are other forms of social proof of self-control, respect, and so on.

    That is where I think a lot of sex possies are missing the point. The dislike of promiscuity isn’t just about sex. Yes, it is about sex and being chosen and all the things the guys here talk about.

    It’s also a proxy for a lot of character tests, specifically ones of self-control. Sure, that gets discussed here but that one probably gets hand waved away more with “but there are other ways to know that” more than anything else. The sex possies never seem to get that societies pick markers for character. They point to poly and BDSM worlds as not caring about promiscuity (hell, in some circles slut is a compliment) but they never take the next step and say “they measure character by X, Y, and Z”. I promise you at least one of those things will be a sexual character test. Who do you play with and how do you negotiate it, how much drama do you cause, do you poach from stable poly groups, and so on.

    So, even in circles where threesomes might be normal and promiscuous behavior acceptable, having random threesomes will not be. It’s about having control of your sexuality regardless of the standard or the larger community.

    Even my kind of sluts aren’t the same thing as the random sluts trying to cover up their past.

  • Escoffier

    well the big UC schools today have more out of state kids than ever but it’s still a small proportion. I guess I don’t know much about George Mason but I don’t think they get a lot of out of state kids. I know that G’Town, GW and American draw from all over the country. In california the only schools you can really say that about are Stanford and (to a much lesser extent) USC. Pomona and CMC are also decent out of state draws but not to the same extent. And they tend to draw from Western states. The number of kids you will meet at Pomona from (say) Mass is very small. If any.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    As for graduate degrees, a lot of employers provide tuition reimbursement, so you can get an MBA or whatever for very cheap while going to school. Since you’ll be in early 20s and not have kids, the time expenditure to get a graduate degree while working will not be a problem. I’ve known a number of women who have gone back to school while working and gotten their master’s for free or cheap.

    Don’t buy into the hype that a woman who has a man is useless at a job.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t buy into the hype that a woman who has a man is useless at a job.

      I agree with this. For the record, I have already told my daughter that now (just post college) is the time to begin searching for a quality man. If she finds him tomorrow, I’ll be thrilled, and do not feel that she has to delay marriage just because she is young. But I still hope she would delay childbirth for a few years.

  • Abbot

    “a series of three week sexual relationships courtesy of Match.com”

    “This is very true. There are lots of false starts with sex happening on date three, and there is no date four.”

    So then, is Match.com really a harem facilitator and wife-material wrecker?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So then, is Match.com really a harem facilitator and wife-material wrecker?

      I believe they claim to be responsible for a large percentage of American marriages.

  • Ramble

    well the big UC schools today have more out of state kids than ever but it’s still a small proportion.

    Right, *AND* CA is an enormous state. So, again, moving from SF to LA is a big deal. Again, this was all about little Janey moving away from her family to be with Johnny. It’s a big deal.

    And, again, I said that GM probably does NOT get many out of staters.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, we just disagree on this point. I think essential to the concept of alpha is “exciting.” “Exciting” is not necesarilly good. Excitement can be bad, or dangerous, or frivilous. It can be many things.

    Beta and boring are basically synonymous the same way alpha and exciting are.

    Exciting is also not the same as good in bed. I mostly believe your argument that PUAs tend to be lousy because they don’t care. (Though game bloggers tend to boast about their prowess, but I don’t think we can take their word for it). So, the point is not what happens after she submits to sex. The point is what got her to submit. What got her to submit were his attractive traits that she found exciting.

  • J

    Oddly, there seems to be stigma (outside of the heartland and religious colleges) against marrying right after graduation.

    I don’t know if it’s a stigma as much as it is an acceptance that kids will split up to go to separate grad schools or job markets. It used to be in the UMC that the boy would find a job or go on to law or med school and the girl would marry him and work as a teacher or nurse while he was in school. He’d graduate, she’d quit work, and they’d start a family. Now the girl is going to law or med in NY and the boy is going to law or med school in CA, so they break up. No one is giving up their plans for the other.

  • Desiderius

    “dating, i.e. serial monogamy”

    Heh

  • Escoffier

    LA to SF is only 400 miles. I knew plenty of SoCalers who went to Berkeley and NorCalers who went to UCLA. It was not that uncommon.

    Really, what kids tended to do was go to the best UC campus they got into. If you got into Cal, that’s where you went. If Cal dinged you but UCLA accepted you, you went there. Then UCSD. After that it was a bit more variable. There were kids who either were accepted or could have been accepted to Cal who chose UCLA because they wanted to be in LA but that was not so common.

    As an aside, Stanford grads assume that everyone who went to Cal did so because they got rejected by Stanford. At the Big Game one year when Cal built up a huge lead and it was clear Stanford was going to lose, students on the Stanford side starting chanting “We got in! We got in!” lol

  • J

    @SW

    I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband. They had five kids and have been married 44 years.

    Wise choice. She probably would not have believed you anyway.

    34, not 44?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Yes, thanks, it’s 34 years.

      BTW, I watched Girls for the second time last night and realized that Adam took that jar of mayonnaise into the bedroom. Outrageous! Then we hear a crash and he yells “Fucker!” I think I’m going to miss him the most.

  • Ramble

    Excoffier, come on, it is over 6 hours from LA to SF. That means that the 23 year old Janey (after following Johnny) is going to see her friends fewer than, say, 3 times per year…it is a big deal.

    Whether or not it is common is not being debated.

  • J

    @Esco

    Well, like I said, and I don’t think I am an outlier, I could tell by 7th grade what kind of boys the girls liked. I also knew it wasn’t me!

    I had the corresponding female experience until I graduated college. Luckily, the grown men like me fine.

    Even in 7th grade, 10% of the guys are getting with 10% of the girls, and that stays true through college.

    Yep.

  • Tasmin

    @MikeC
    “Tasmin, I’m sure you realize what you’ve described is an example of male projection. Because we value immensely what you describe in a woman for a LTR/marriage we assume that women by and large will place the same priority/emphasis. I think it was VD who somewhere correctly pointed out that rather than the golden rule assume the opposite when it comes to men and women. In my view, and in my experience where women will “penalize” your for sexual intimacy is if they witness you going for the really low-hanging fruit. It isn’t the casual sex itself you get penalized for…it is the WHO it was with.”

    Yup. Which is why I lump it into the Red Pill. I am in the process of netting out the truly meaningful, relevant, and and useful components of my beliefs from the ‘values’ that were instilled in me while growing up in a conservative, religious household and attending feminist-inspired public schools in the 70′s and 80′s. Of course there is projection there. Digesting the red pill requires the divesting of those things that we wrongly internalize as universal to men and women, when if fact – and my experience is in line with yours, women hold a very different view when it comes to how men value and act in terms of intimacy.

    But as I am sure you know, our beliefs tend to be very sticky. It is a difficult process and can cast quite a negative light at times. While I don’t know about the golden-rule thing, probably a bridge too far for me, I have seen enough to know that whatever value I hold in terms of intimacy is mine alone and to expect women to hold it in the same regard is an exercise in futility. But you know, it’s the truth, but I don’t *like* it. And I think it is this very process that sets guys like me off into darker things. While I don’t agree with that path, I do feel like it is a fool’s game to expect others to value us based on our principles; they will value us based on theirs. So your point is spot on.

    In the meantime my focus remains on women who have similarly held themselves above the fray while working to eliminate any of my residual expectations that my values in this regard are anything other than gravy.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Tasmin, if I recall correctly, you are an NF (INF*?), which is the rarest male (major MBTI) subtype. Female NFs are maybe 15-20% of the population, and they are your natural counterparts. Other NFs are much more likely to value what you value in relationships, especially in regard to intimacy and non-promiscuity. Personally, I value the same values, and it is a deep-seated feeling that has little to do with the prevailing cultural norms. I attribute it to my NF nature, since I did not have a religious upbringing.

  • J

    I am continually amazed at how many miserable and unsuccessful people advise others. Caveat emptor. *shrugs*

    Yeah, no shit! The way to be considered a god in this corner of the net is to be an unhappily married/divorced man. I sometimes kills me to think of how many times I’ve been shouted down by guys who’d kill to have what I give my husband, but think I’m full of shit, not submissive enough or whatever. There are days I’d like to shake the whole lot of them and say, “Listen! I have what you want! Let me tell you how to get it.” Jeeeezzzz.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “While yo will get no argument from me, I feel that you have changed the point of the argument. That is fine, that is your prerogative, but I will let you go down that rabbit hole by yourself.”

    Couple of things.
    1. I’ve been down this rabbit hole so long I’m renting a room. It is very nicely furnished, but the stairs out suck.
    2. My original point was that I don’t understand why people are putting off relationships during college, so I don’t think I moved the goal posts. If I did, it was by mistake.
    3. “Ted, you are not making some sort of argument against sluttiness.” – but I am. What I am saying is: I don’t expect anyone to put off having sex from the time they are in High School to when they get married. It just isn’t possible. So, to me the better alternative is to get with and stay with someone as long as possible during this time, and by all means try to find someone you think you can marry and work towards that goal. If it doesn’t work out, you haven’t lost anything and you gain relationship experience. How exactly is that NOT making an argument against sluttiness?

    Susan – “And I think 21 is too young to make that commitment. The truth is that most kids coming out of college are far from fully matured.”

    OK I agree here. But I highly doubt any of my children will be done with college by 21, even if they start right after HS. You see, we don’t have the money for them to go full time without working, so I expect they will be doing part time and working, which will probably take the usual four year degree and stretch it out to 6ish. By 23 I will feel much more comfortable with a moving away situation. Also, what difference does it make if your daughter moves away on her own for a job, or moves with a BF? Yes, I indicated that I would want to see a strong level of commitment, but that doesn’t mean being married before they move. If they spent four years together in college, I would feel comfortable with their level of commitment to each other, provided I didn’t get any bad vibes while they were dating in college. Again, I would want anyone my children are with to be in my presence as often as possible, to see how they interact and to get a feel for them.

    As far as college relationships go, I really can’t say. I didn’t start my first round of college until I was 21, and only got an associate degree at that time. I was with the same girl prior to starting, and still after I finished. We broke up within a year and I met my now ex-wife within a year of that break-up. (actually this turned out to be my longest stretch without a LTR. I put my efforts into my new “career” for awhile and just didn’t put myself out there to find another mate.) But you have to remember in all of this, what YOUR children will experience in college and what MY children will experience is vastly different. My kids will be living at home and commuting to school. They will probably attend Pitt or Penn State at best, and honestly they will likely be at least putting time in community college first to knock out the basics. We don’t have the kind of money it takes for even the more expensive schools in Pittsburgh, so anyone they are dating will have plenty of face time with me.

    Tasmin – “But then I have always wanted more than just sex. Which is probably what keeps me planted firmly in the beta camp.”

    Screw it! In the end for me, I realized that I might have stayed away from casual sex because I thought it had some value with women, but at this point I don’t care. I am who I am this moment because I turned casual sex down, and in the end I’m good with who I am. If it has no value to women, well, what difference does it really make? It had and continues to have value to me, and that is all that matters in the end.

    Escoffier – “Wow, all you guys who are getting brazenly propositioned, I am way envious. “

    Don’t be. Honestly it made me feel lousy to an extent as Tasmin also noted. Sure, it was great to think a woman just wanted to jump my bones, but it actually hurt my feelings because it meant they were more interested in my cock than in me. Although I do think that first girl that propositioned me (if you can call it that…) really wanted to “want” me because I was a “good guy”. She knew me for some time through a former LTR mate, and despite that breakup she still saw me as the classic decent man, and had a history of going for the cad/asshat/PUA type guys that would pump and dump her. She really didn’t want me, she wanted to want me, if that makes sense… So that situation made me feel pretty crappy. The other? Well to be honest, I felt just a little violated. I knew some of the guys she had been with before, and I had NO desire to put any part of my body near that cesspool. I have no idea what caused her to hit on me, but I suspect it was at least partly the desire to “corrupt” me, and she knew I was way down in the dumps about my breakup. (perhaps she was hoping to snag me with her magic vagina and land a provider. Who knows…)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, what difference does it make if your daughter moves away on her own for a job, or moves with a BF?

      No difference unless she compromises in the second case.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “College is an opportunity to get an education, and that should be the highest priority of everyone there. Once you graduate, your highest priority should be putting that education to good use. That does not preclude a relationship, but it doesn’t emphasize it either.”

    Yeah we see this differently. Of course to me getting good grades and an education is important, but I don’t believe that all other facets of life should be put on hold during this time. In fact, to me it makes sense to purposefully engage in other activities during college. Sure, it makes things harder. But, is life easy? Did you find more stress when you had to work full time AND maintain a family? You see, to me having a relationship during college is a great way to prepare for the “real world”, where you have to balance family and work as best as you can. Of course I expect my kids to get good grades. But, I don’t expect them to completely stop living outside of school, and that means I fully expect them to be dating.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Hmm. Ok, as an observer-and very much an “alien” participant of the manosphere for roughly five years now, ill give you my impressions and what i think is the big takeaway for me:

    First, i honestly question whether the (white for the most part) guys in the sphere really want advice or any other kinds of information in order to change their lives/situation. I think most guys in the sphere are deeply pissed off that life did not work out anywhere near they were told and they are very bitter about this. This is why roissy and roosh have more content about fat girl jihads and the like more than straightahead pickup knowledge-in many ways from where i sit, the latter is a kind of thin cover to give the former a kind of legitimacy in the public square.

    This became very clear to me two summers ago, when an article i wrote for the spearhead generated 600+ comments of hate. Why? Because my piece had the gall to advise men about their hygiene and appearance with an eye towards maintaining/improving a ltr. It also talked about doing it in the midst of the mancession-how to get cleaned up and take your lady out on a shoestring budget.

    But it didnt stop there. When i wrote a followup piece laying out my dismay at the fact that so many guys-all to a man white, with more real opportunities in life that i would ever have-were so filled with bile and hatred, the damn burst loose-what had been percolating just beneath the surface finally came out in all its ugliness:

    How dare i, a black man, call all these guys on the carpet for what anyone with one good eye could plainly see? Undergirding the manosphere is a deep vein of out and out racism-particularly aimed at black men. So long as i was writing pieces that upbraided black women or whatnot i was ok; but the minute i began to talk about self-improvement in detailed ways, i got nothing but scorn. Even worse when i dared to challenge these white guys on their deep sense of entitlement., bitterness and anger. Every single game oriented article i have every written for the spearhead, has been met with howls of derision by its readership. That “600+ comments of hate” really opened my eyes to the fact that the manosphere doesnt want self improvement, doesnt want to grow. They want, at best, the world to change for and around them, and for having a space so they can do the grownup equivalent of a “boys only” treehouse. I decided to let them have it.

    The big problem with all this though, is that a lot of what the manosphere says, has more than a grain of truth in it,despite its flagrant misogyny and blatant anti black male racism. Women, have changed and not always for the better. White males, particularly those on the margins of the lower middle class and what used to be solid working class, are seeing what little comparitive advantage to being a white male erode due to a host of forces. And the whites at the top-and with all due respect im reminded of the debate you had with ramble recently, this includes white(er) people like you-dont seem to even notice these guys. To say nothing about caring about them.

    I learned that the manosphere doesnt have a place for me, a largely self taught black man from working class black america. Indeed if anything im watched with guarded suspicion, at best and if i step outta line im quickly “put back in my place”. In the minds of the majority of the white guys of the manosphere, i dont belong there and whats worse im part of the problem as to why they suffer as they do. While that may be regrettable in some philosophical sense, whats truly sad to me is that as a brotha, i am very much used to being on americas margins; its a new thing for these guys and by all accounts things are not going well for them in their transition.

    As reprehensible as some of the manosphere may be, i think you can relate to what im saying here ms walsh; at the very least you can see what it is that im talking about. And i think that-o
    Along with enjoying a good debate-explains more than enough why you allow so many denizens of the manosphere into your “home”.

    The big takeaway for me is that what has been roiling in black america for decades has finally landed right on white americas doorstep-and if the manosphere is any indication you dont have a freakin clue as to how or what to do about it.

    Holla back…

    O.

  • Escoffier

    I was half joking about being envious. But only half. One test of one’s SMV would be whether you ever get propositioned by the opposite sex. According to that test I am expired milk.

  • J

    BTW, I watched Girls for the second time last night and realized that Adam took that jar of mayonnaise into the bedroom. Outrageous! Then we hear a crash and he yells “Fucker!” I think I’m going to miss him the most.

    Yeah, for all his weirdness, he’s grown on me too.

    I was heartbroken by the Hannah/Marnie fight. That’s an interesting relationship. They know each other so well and so many of the same faults despite the gap in their looks. What hurts more at that point in life than losing your bestie? They need each other to help navigate life, but lines are being re-drawn with Marnie and Jessa aligning against Hannah. So realistic.

    I was also quite drawn in by the discussion between Jessa and her former employer. That the woman showed up in the first place was the first thing in the series that rang false to me, but the dialogue was exquisite–down to the need to find out if there really was any intimacy to the desire to mother Jessa. It gave us a nice glimpse into what’s hiding under Jessa’s manic exterior.

  • Ramble

    My original point was that I don’t understand why people are putting off relationships during college, so I don’t think I moved the goal posts.

    That may be the case, but there were many points brought up between you and Susan, and I was simply responding to one of them…and you didn’t address that one. Which is not important. It wasn’t a show stopper.

    “Ted, you are not making some sort of argument against sluttiness.”

    I misspoke. I meant to say, “you ARE making …”, there should not have been a “not” in there.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You may not be vulnerable today. But you may be just a bad breakup, a disappointment at work, or even a rainy day away from being vulnerable tomorrow. And that handsome, charming predator with the slightly too-knowing eyes is always ready should that day come….

    I’ll consign this part of the “lifetime mission of getting as much poon as possible” from my friends was advertising crazy sexuality and discretion and orbit married women, waiting for that moment when the sex in the marriage sucked or was inexistant, her husband wasn’t paying attention because he himself was too busy with new fresh and so on and it probably was a good source of “someday I will bang that” this is one of the reasons I do think that as a general rule married people, shouldn’t have cultivate close friendships with people of the opposite gender they are not related to, heck I had known some cousins sleeping together so maybe nothing but their fathers and brothers and should kill any crush or attraction at the office, school… in the spot. Cheating happens with you find a person you are attracted to, he/she reciprocates and there is opportunity for the act, I don’t think you can do much about the feelings but opportunity IMO is the one people can have more control over so that is the one I advice to watch out, we had a similar advice at church to keep our legs shut and our zippers up: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, so don’t give the flesh a chance, YMMV.

    At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband.

    I’m rarely cynical but I hope he didn’t found another willing friend that actually “understood” that night.

    I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.

    Hope seems to fall in this category and she is really respected here so cosigning this.

    Then the Claremont Colleges also do. After that, it’s mostly local kids.

    Wait…are we neighbors? I live on Southern California and I had seen the Claremont colleges more times that I care about it.

    Why do they tell me? I am the easy-going, nonjudgmental, while still being very sexual, friend. They know that a lot of their female friends will judge or use it against them. Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.

    That is how I hear all the stories I do. I am judgmental but no one knows that so they feel free to tell me everything, sometimes to my cringe. There are things I didn’t wanted to know.

    In my opinion the right man is worth WAY more than a good job.

    Yes. Totally our culture has a huge system dedicated to educate us and to find a job, but none to find a good person to spent your life with. Many people gamble love out of the chance of working in a job that pays them a lot of money and travel the world. But those jobs are hard and if you find yourself 36 and needed more education you can get one, if you find yourself the same age and single…well odds are worst for you. I left my job when I was making the more money I had ever done in my life to move to USA. I might be worried about being a SHAM but I rather worry about that than being on dating hell at this age.

    Heck, isn’t that what made what’s her name famous…crap, the one you did a post on. Fuck, I can’t remember shit.

    Kate Bolick?

    I would say this: look for advice from those that seem to genuinely want to help (and not make themselves look smart) and are offering *specific* advice.

    I will say ask advice to the professionals that have both the experience and have what you want for real. The Simpson’s joke about the life coach living alone in a department is all too real. When looking for dating advice I always picked the married people for more than 20 years that had advice to achieve that. The Rules woman got divorced, nuff said…

  • Abbot

    “I believe they claim to be responsible for a large percentage of American marriages.”

    Well, this is also on their site-

    “24% of men and 23% of women ages 21-34 are virgins.”

    and this, obviously to make women feel better -

    “35% of singles have had a one-night stand that turned into a long term partnership.”

    http://blog.match.com/2011/02/04/everything-you-think-you-know-about-singles-is-wrong-we-separate-fact-from-fiction-with-the-first-comprehensive-study-of-singles-in-america/

  • Tasmin

    @Hope
    Yep: INFP. I believe that type is even labeled “The Idealist”. I have to continually work on how I align my idealist/romantic notions with reality. I’m much more comfortable with being an INFP now, as opposed to years past. But a big part of that comfort came via serious loss and subsequent reckonings that continue to this day. I think that if I ever get to the point when I would be “ok” with having a son who is an INFP, that would mean that I have reached a significant milestone.

    For me, the sensitive-feeling-introvert combo was a dreadful disposition from which to navigate years 6-25. And since my childhood our society has moved even further away from any kind of environment or systemic characteristics that foster or encourage those traits. I am who I am, but goddamn if it wasn’t a long painful process to finally discover that there was nothing ‘wrong’ with me.

    I’m not big follower of ‘cultural norms’ either. I never had religion pounded into me; religion was just one part of a greater world-view. My values weren’t based on avoiding the everlasting fires of hell, but were developed as a result of extremely giving, low-ego parents who instilled an unwavering sense of selflessness. Which given my natural disposition, was redundant and probably led to some of my issues with self-esteem and perhaps my early motivation to seek out financial success over truly enriching endeavors. (Much like some children of extremely religious families revolt.)

    In any case, I know there are women who share my views as all of the women whom I have been lucky enough to get to know over the past few years have been givers, healers, and the like. And I am really really attracted to those types. But the physical intimacy thing I find to be a whole other issue.

    Regardless, I appreciate that you and other women here speak up for these qualities because there are sparse venues or forums ‘out there’ in which women feel comfortable enough to voice anything that might be contrary to the Sex and the City kulture or other populist memes.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “No difference unless she compromises in the second case.”

    Then we aren’t so far apart. I just think that what the “college experience” is for you and yours compared to me and mine is vastly different. For my part, college is not a moment to pause life and focus on one and only one thing. To me it is the first time I expect my children to start actually multitasking life. I fully expect them to get good grades, work to earn some money (I won’t make them pay rent or food costs if/when they live with me WHILE they are in college), and have a decent social life all at the same time. If I can work 40+ hours a week and maintain a family life, they can manage to work, learn, and play a little. If not, then they need more than a college degree, they need a wake up call for what is coming next.

    And I’ve made it perfectly clear that they WILL NOT be living at home for free unless they are enrolled in college and getting good grades. No college, no free room and meals. Bad grades? Same thing. If they want to loaf, they will be paying rent and buying their own food. Once they are 18, I am done being obligated to support them. Surely I will help them, but only if they are perusing goals I agree with. Or, the most common name this goes by in my family is: My house, my rules. They don’t like it? The door is that way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I admire and respect the expectations you have for your kids. Our society could use a lot more parents like you.

      And no worries, I did not feel attacked. I am actually interested to learn about the different ways people experience the SMP, culture, etc. I completely recognize that my own location is not at all representative of most Americans, in a lot of ways. I need to know what’s going on elsewhere, and among different populations.

  • Ted D

    Also, I hope you don’t think I’m attacking you on this. I know that when it comes to children things can get very personal quickly, and I don’t want you to feel like I’m on the attack. To be honest, I very much dislike the idea that college is a time ONLY for learning and study. I think it goes a long way towards keeping our young adults immature and protected, when I believe they should be experiencing the world in all its glory and horror so they know exactly what they are getting into when they graduate. I would much rather my children know now and be scared as hell, than to graduate and be shocked at what they find outside of academia. But I’ve never been the type of parent to shelter my kids anyway. I let them make mistakes, even when I know they will hurt (emotionally of course) because it teaches them valuable lessons before the mistakes are higher cost.

  • VD

    One of the ways I part company with game teaching is their insistence on the homogeneity of women. I think it’s useful to generalize about widely shared traits. But they often oversimplify and insist on saying stuff like, All women are attracted to the same things.

    You have to keep in mind that Roissy and others are having to drive their primary points home to some very stubbornly resistant men who will take any opportunity to cling to their preconceptions. I know it drives Roissy nuts that he can’t be more subtle and precise, but he knows that if he does, those who most need his message will miss it entirely. If you are of low socio-sexual rank and are learning Game, then you need to operate with a model that assumes female homogenuity. It’s not different than any other academic subject; I could give you a laundry list of Veblen, Giffen, and Prechterian goods that completely violate the law of supply and demand, and yet every Econ 101 class teaches that if supply rises, price will fall, demand being constant.

    Nailed it. I know a few women personally who have exactly done this, and their best female friends (and naturally, husbands/boyfriends) don’t even know.

    Everyone knows a few women who have done it. They just don’t know they did it.

    I could clearly see what you describe above, but at the same time I was being told by older women in my life that this was all a ‘phase’ and that these women were just immature and didn’t really know what they wanted. So, while my eyes were telling me the assholes/jerks/jocks mostly got all the girls, I was being told it wouldn’t last.

    I heard the same lies too, but thanks to minor incidents in 5th and 7th grade, I ceased to believe anything that any female said. I also refused to date any girl from my school. The result was that by the time I graduated from college, my friends were absolutely convinced that I could get any woman’s knickers off if given 30 minutes alone with her. The amusing thing was that one of my house mates told his girlfriend this, and she couldn’t believe it. She’d seen pictures of all of us and I wasn’t even the best-looking one in the group. Then he brought her to a party, was introduced to me, and I didn’t even say anything to her, I simply looked at her and nodded, then went to talk to someone else.

    The next day, he told me that she turned to him and said, “okay, I get it now.”

    For some reason that I don’t pretend to understand, women react to self-confident, self-aware contempt as if it is catnip. Perhaps it is the DHV thing. Or perhaps it is an instinctive response to being seen as a pure sex object. I couldn’t possibly say. All I know is that if you look at a woman as if you are a cobra and she is a little mouse that you may or may not be in the mood to devour, she tends to find it not only attractive, but downright mesmerizing.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Shortly after I graduated from college, Mary, one of my best friends got engaged to her college bf Bill (it was 1978, and this still happened occasionally). I was to be one of her bridesmaids. One night at around midnight, there was a knock on the door of my apartment. It was Bill, who I also knew, explaining that his car had broken down nearby and asking if he could crash on the couch and deal with it in the morning. Of course I said yes and made up the couch with pillow and blankets.

    I was awakened in the middle of the night when he crawled into my bed. Horrified (and frightened) I bolted upright and asked what the hell he was doing. He confessed the whole thing had been a ruse, and that he “needed” to have sex with me before he gave up other women forever. He unabashedly attempted to persuade me of this plan. I threw him out.

    I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him.

    Good lord. I must say you handled that situation extremely well. I especially loved what you had to say to him at the rehearsal dinner.

  • Tom

    I have a friend who is a Match.com expert. He is also disfuctional when it comes to women. His mom was a ho and I think he actually dislikes women, at least he doesnt repect them.
    He has bedded over 100 women from match. Normally they go to dinner, by date 3 or earlier they have sex. They stop seeing him once they figure him out. He tells me ALL the women from match just want a free dinner and mostly sex. He says they are all nuts. I asked him he knows what they all have in common and he said no. I told him they all have HIM in common.. He didnt get my drift

    There are two kinds of people in this world, those who get it and those who do not. If you dont understand what I mean, then you are probably one of those people who dont.

    The story from the sex kitten was a good one. A common thread Ive seen several times.

  • Ramble

    Yes, Ana, Kate Bolick. I was too lazy to look it up.

  • VD

    I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him.

    I have to admit, I am borderline shocked by this, Susan. I was expecting you told Mary, but that she refused to believe it and married him anyway. Of course, it was the 70s…..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      I have to admit, I am borderline shocked by this, Susan. I was expecting you told Mary, but that she refused to believe it and married him anyway. Of course, it was the 70s…..

      I figured people might be shocked. I was very unsure what to do, and I asked advice from several trusted older people. I really believed (and still do) that he was just freaking out about the commitment, and never having the chance to sleep with anyone else. I’m sure he and Mary lost their virginity to one another. Why he thought I’d be game, I don’t know! I was sort of offended, to tell you the truth, that he thought I’d go for a ONS with my good friend’s fiance. Double insult.

      AFAIK, he has been a true and faithful husband. We still do the Christmas card thing. IDK if I made the right call. If it had been me, I would have wanted to know. But I was pretty sure she didn’t.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    VD – “All I know is that if you look at a woman as if you are a cobra and she is a little mouse that you may or may not be in the mood to devour, she tends to find it not only attractive, but downright mesmerizing.”

    Yep. I have seen this in action (and accidentally used it myself on occasion not knowing what I was doing) and as you said it often works wonders. I actually make it a point to be sure to project this on occasion to my current SO. In fact, of my LTRs, this is the first one where I am making conscious decisions to be sure and assert my “sexuality” for lack of a better term, and most of that comes in blatantly sexual remarks, a good bit of sexual innuendo, and occasional confirmation of exactly what I expect sexually from our relationship. Despite what I grew up believing, my SO responds very positively to these efforts. It seems like something I should have always known, but I still sometimes find myself amazed that women respond well to being treated like a sexual object, as long as it is from a man they actually want to have sex with.

  • VD

    I do think that as a general rule married people, shouldn’t have cultivate close friendships with people of the opposite gender they are not related to, heck I had known some cousins sleeping together so maybe nothing but their fathers and brothers and should kill any crush or attraction at the office, school… in the spot. Cheating happens with you find a person you are attracted to, he/she reciprocates and there is opportunity for the act, I don’t think you can do much about the feelings but opportunity IMO is the one people can have more control over so that is the one I advice to watch out

    This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    You know I have to say that I continue to be struck by just how so very deadly serious you White folks take this “love” thing; there just isn’t any analog in Black America. There. other priorities become important, and finding someone just kinda, you know, happens. And if it doesn’t, well, then you have Tyler Perry.

    I think that more than anything says a heck of a lot about this corner of White American, and Black America; being something of a class and cultural cross dresser, I continue to be fascinated by the stark comparisons.

    And yes, this holds true for the Buppies as well as the Ratchets…

    O.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “I want my daughter to experience supporting herself, living independently, finding intellectual fulfillment, and selecting a mate very carefully.”
    ————-

    Hate to repeat this, but I’m one of those who married her college sweetheart. I know *quite* a number of others who also have, even 2 couples who married their HS sweethearts and are still going strong.
    Many lived independently and supported themselves prior to marrying (as did I), worked while attending school, most also have a grad degree, all married later (as college grads typically do), none spit out babies before minimum age 26.
    The only difference is that not ONE of these people wasted their time dating casually but were very selective in dating ONLY MARRIAGE MATERIAL from the very start.
    We all married within our age range (within 2 years) and we all married people with LOW numbers and LOW baggage from prior failed relationships. Win, win, win all around.
    Shockingly, all of this happened in the capitol of the world.
    We’re all in our mid 40s, but I have younger relatives doing exactly the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      The only difference is that not ONE of these people wasted their time dating casually but were very selective in dating ONLY MARRIAGE MATERIAL from the very start.

      That’s a great story and great advice. There’s no downside to keeping your eyes wide open early if you have the self-discipline to be that selective. After college, when some dating does occur, I think it’s essential that young women be on the lookout for red flags and continually assess whether the man they’re interested in is “still” marriage material. What is needed is a strong and consistently applied filter. The opportunity cost of wasting time dating people who are not marriage material is high for both sexes, but especially high for women in view of the timeline.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    VD – “This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.”

    Cosign. I am “friendly” with my friend’s wives and GF’s, but I am not friends with them directly at all. I am also “friendly” to women at work, but I keep them at what I consider a safe distance emotionally, partly because I don’t shit where I work, and partly because of the desire to limit temptation. And I agree this is good advice for men AND women.

    Obisidian – “You know I have to say that I continue to be struck by just how so very deadly serious you White folks take this “love” thing; there just isn’t any analog in Black America. ”

    Can you elaborate some? I’m curious exactly what you mean by this comment. Is it that love just isn’t as important to black folks? It could explain much of what I see going on around me in the minority communities. But, as with other things I’ve mentioned, if its true, then it is spreading over to the lower class white folks around me as well.

  • Alias

    VD – “This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.”
    ———–

    Neither one of us has ever had opposite sex friends that we don’t meet with only as part of a couple. Part of the arsenal of not doing something stupid that you’ll later regret in life is to not put yourself in a compromising position to begin with.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ted:
    “Can you elaborate some? I’m curious exactly what you mean by this comment. Is it that love just isn’t as important to black folks? It could explain much of what I see going on around me in the minority communities. But, as with other things I’ve mentioned, if its true, then it is spreading over to the lower class white folks around me as well.”

    O: Sure.

    Take what Ms. Walsh has said above in the comments, about what she wants for her daughter. She specifically mentioned paying for education as well as inculcating what Kay Hymowitz calls “The Mission” into her daughter. This sense of “mission” isn’t as clearcut and defined in Black America, as it is in White(r) America. And this extends into the area of love/relationships/mating/marriage/etc. Indeed, I think it was WaPo who recentlly published a study about Black Women, part of the results being that marriage and love weren’t as high a priority as career advancement and the like, if memory serves. In fact, when compared to Black Men(!), the latter had more interest in such things (love, romance, marriage) than Black Women did.

    I mean, just take a look around the Afrosphere – that corner of the Internet that caters specifically to Blacks – and just compare that to Whites, like forums such as this one. Spend a bit of time comparing the general literature, like magazines and blogs and so forth. It becomes very apparent after awhile, that there is a big glaring difference between the two. “The Mission” accounts for at least part of that, I think, and of course, there are other things that account for it as well.

    The problem of course, is that noticing such comparisons outloud can get you into enough trouble that you could even lose your job, which explains why it’s not as discussed in such naked ways; if it’s discussed at all, it’s done with the wink and nod kinds of language, deliberately oblique enough so as to not “offend” anybody – especially Black folks, definitely especially Black Women (recall my question earlier last week).

    If you have any further questions, holla.

    O.

  • OffTheCuff

    J: ” There are days I’d like to shake the whole lot of them and say, “Listen! I have what you want! Let me tell you how to get it.”

    While I don’t doubt your expertise here, men have led astray by female dating advice enough, that it is entirely proper to tell them to *never* listen to a woman for dating advice. Maybe you’re unlike the rest and actually won’t lie to them, but even at best case you can’t really ever understand visceral things like overcoming rejection, any more than I can understand having PMS.

    Those guys should listen to a man who has succeeded in getting what they want, when starting from a similar position. It is rather curious that they don’t though. The divorced/angry guys sure are the loudest ones, though. At least Athol has a decent following.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Ted,
    Here’s a bit of what I mean when Kay Hymowitz talks about “The Mission”:
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_3_black_family.html

    It’s a very good overview of the past roughly half century of public policy surrounding issues very important to the HUS crowd – and beyond…

    O.

  • Alias

    OTC:
    “Those guys should listen to a man who has succeeded in getting what they want, when starting from a similar position. It is rather curious that they don’t though. ”
    ——

    Happily married guys hang out on relationship forums just as much as they do on knitting and crocheting forums.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Obisian – “She specifically mentioned paying for education as well as inculcating what Kay Hymowitz calls “The Mission” into her daughter. This sense of “mission” isn’t as clearcut and defined in Black America, as it is in White(r) America. And this extends into the area of love/relationships/mating/marriage/etc. ”

    Yes, I get this. I never put a name to it, but I always felt like there was a bit of aimlessness in the poor communities around me, and I think it is related to “the mission” as you put it. I said elsewhere that many young people around me just don’t see that a college education is something they can achieve, and this is directly because they are not given “the mission” by their parents, which Susan describes as a “lack of parental investment”. I agree to an extent, but it isn’t just a lack of parental input in all cases. Surely in many, but I’ve also seem a few situations where parents set the bar VERY low on purpose, because they genuinely believe their children will not have opportunities to better themselves because of their position in life. I never really thought about this in terms of “love”, but I can clearly see the relationship. Not only do these kids believe they can’t get ahead, they are learning that they cannot expect to ever depend on anyone other than themselves. I’ve said before that several young women I know well have told me they do not expect to find a decent guy, because they truly believe they either do not exist, or they will NEVER be in the position to snag one for themselves because of their SES. Sadly I can’t argue with them based on what I see around me.

    And again, let me state that I feel a bit awkward even discussing this, because as you put it the conversation is far from PC, and as a White Male(TM) I risk being labelled a racist or worse. To me, it isn’t about race at all, but has much more to do with SES and social issues. It just so happens that in the past the overwhelming majority of folks at the bottom of the SES ladder have been minorities. I’m certainly not going to minimize what the Black community has suffered through, and I know that I cannot relate directly as someone that has never dealt with the “business end” of racial profiling and discrimination, but that doesn’t mean I can’t look around me and see where the problems are. And as much as most of this stuff has historically been “Black” issues, I can clearly see that they are no longer being confined by race. You are correct that the Black community has been the canary in the coal mine for decades, and I am saying that at least around me, these issues have spread beyond the confines of race and religion. It is very much a “class” issue around here.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “I admire and respect the expectations you have for your kids. Our society could use a lot more parents like you.”

    The funny thing is, I believe that by my grandparents standards I would be deemed FAR too lenient with my children.

    Obsidian – Thanks for the link. Very interesting story that I see mirrors some of the points I made in my last post. I think what surprises me the most is just how involved our own government was in causing this problem. It just proves what I’ve always believed: the government should stay out of individual live’s and concentrate on simply fostering an environment where everyone has a fair chance to succeed. It seems like even when they have good intentions (which I don’t believe is often anyway) the Fed is just too large and too out of touch with what is going on in the streets to do anything but make it worse.

    Of course, those folks that are really part of the conspiracy set believe all of this is 100% intentional to keep us all “in control” by the powers that be. Who knows for sure? I would just like the government to stay out of my business, and keep the rest of the world from dragging us down. Fat chance of that happening though…

  • J

    @OTC

    Thanks, I guess, sorta. FWIW, I’ve never lied on any of these blogs, but you’re right that I see things from a female perspective. I would expect that guys could reverse engineer things from there though.

    @Alias

    I agree that you’ll rarely see a happily married guy on these blogs. Men don’t like relationship chat, and they don’t like to ask for help. I have to adnire the level of courage it takes to comment in the ‘sphere–even when I don’t agree with the comment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. (I am probably missing some.) I think it’s because they’re interested in society and culture, and the changes brought about by the Sex Rev. And there’s also a strong desire to advise younger guys, which I appreciate.

  • Jason773

    OTC,

    Those guys should listen to a man who has succeeded in getting what they want, when starting from a similar position. It is rather curious that they don’t though. The divorced/angry guys sure are the loudest ones, though. At least Athol has a decent following.

    The resistance to this is truly amazing. Guys will see what works over and over and over again, and still dismiss it, make excuses and complain about their terrible luck. I’ve offered to help many guys like this, but 99% of the time they don’t take me up on my offer, as it is must be a male ego thing.

    Conincidentally, there is one guy in my social cirlce who I have offered to help since this past fall, and he finally came around a couple weeks ago due to another painful experience with the dating game (he is pretty much the nicest guy ever, which shocking, has never worked). I took him out this past Friday, explained the basics of me being a wingman to him and told him that I would help him with any set of girls he desires, but he must open first (generally a sticking point, though I gave him good situational openers when needed). He did pretty well for this first time, with me giving him pointers throughout the night, and he ended up getting two numbers from fairly attractive girls who showed genuine interest at points. The next day he even came over to my place to personally thank me, say he had fun and wants to continue to improve.

    OTOH, there was another guy out with us, who is also in my current social circle, who is the epitome of the excuse making male. I’ve offered to help him before, and he always declines, which is fine, but on Friday I went off on him due to his many snide remarks and comments towards the other guy. It’s almost as if he resents the fact that the first guy is trying to improve himself and hit lot with women, and rather than improve himself, he just wants to tear others down to his level. Needless to say, he is getting ever closer to social circle banishment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      The resistance to this is truly amazing. Guys will see what works over and over and over again, and still dismiss it, make excuses and complain about their terrible luck.

      This often turns into blaming the women for not appreciating them. Once a guy falls into that trap, he’ll find plenty of support online. He’ll be spoon fed a vocabulary beginning with femcentrism, blah blah blah. He’ll express his rage with female nature, and again, high fives all around. It reminds me of this scene:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3TKut1F1zE

      Recognize the guy in the hat?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      That’s awesome that you helped your buddy out, and that he saw improvement immediately. I think a lot of guys need some basic red pill stuff, then a nudge, and they’ll do fine. Especially if they want a gf, not to tear up the scene with SNLs.

  • OffTheCuff

    J/Alias: Vox, Athol, Ian Ironwood have their own blogs. Quite a lot more a men’s forum I visit. Men like Mike C, ExNY, David Collard, comment enough that they are bit more common than knitters…. as men generally prefer sex over knitting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Vox, Ian Ironwood, Ex New Yorker (one of my original guys!), Passer By, and Private First Class Lokland. And I’m sure there are still more. Obsidian is in a LTR. David Foster? Joe!

  • Herb

    @Susan

    There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson.

    After an interesting Freudian slip on her part Saturday evening I might be on track for this…not 100% sure, but the possibility is now there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      After an interesting Freudian slip on her part Saturday evening I might be on track for this…not 100% sure, but the possibility is now there.

      Oh wow, keep us posted!

  • Cooper

    @Susan #395

    … and Lokland!!

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I am here in part to learn what my poor children are facing.

    Jason, I sort of sympathize with those guys. You may think you can exlpain to them how to do it right and your tactics may indeed be right but not everyone can put it into practice.

    I don’t know where confidence with women comes from but I don’t think it’s so easy to learn. I also don’t think it’s a simple outgrowth of confidence in other fields. I was never very smooth around women and still am not. You can exhort me all you want and it won’t matter. I don’t have the inner game to do cold approaches and the like and I don’t think my personality could ever be trained for it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, I am here in part to learn what my poor children are facing.

      Of course, and that reminds me of Mule Chewing Briars, too.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    J – “I agree that you’ll rarely see a happily married guy on these blogs.”

    I agree with this. But I don’t think it is always because men don’t like relationship talk. I think there are several reasons with that being one of them.
    1. Guys don’t like to talk about relationships (or anything with an emotional component to it)
    2. Happily married guys aren’t searching the internet for “game” advice.
    3. Happily married men aren’t looking to find out why their marriages failed. (that is how I found my way here…)
    4. “ragging” on your wife is a time honored tradition among males (and I’m sure females as well) and it just isn’t very good for a man’s reputation with other men to go on and on about how awesome their GF/Wife is.

    That all being said, I know of a few happily partnered men (not all are married) that are more than happy to “talk shop” in the comfort of their friends and the privacy of personal space. I think I’ve said here before that despite all my posts to the contrary I am actually very happy with my current relationship and am doing my best to keep it that way, even while I continue to read and post in the ‘sphere. Early on it was all about me and what I wanted/needed to know. But now I find myself just as if not more interested in simply learning more. I want to find a way to get this message out to more people, and do my best to guide my children and their friends (if they come to me for help) through this mess of a dating market. God willing I’ll never need to be “on the prowl” again, but if that turns out to be true, it doesn’t mean everything I learned is useless, and it doesn’t mean I don’t have something to contribute to the conversation. I think that if those happily married men knew just how bad some guys have it, they might be a bit more vocal about the positives of marriage. I’ve been divorced and I’m still a supporter myself, although I would advise any man planning marriage to really dig into the legal issues before saying “I Do”.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Susan – “There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. ”

    In the interests of keeping things legit, I am not married at the moment but I am living with my SO. And, although I’ve kept it quiet, we are indeed getting married this August. We’ve been talking about and planning it since the beginning of the year, but there were a lot of things to get in place first. This is the second go around for both of us, so we aren’t going nuts with it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Warm congratulations! That’s wonderful news.

  • Ramble

    Susan, what if he didn’t think this:

    I was sort of offended, to tell you the truth, that he thought I’d go for a ONS with my good friend’s fiance.

    But did think this:

    I was sort of offended, to tell you the truth, that he thought I’d go for a ONS.

    Would you still have been offended?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I was offended by both aspects – that’s why I said double insult. I was definitely not slutty in college, at that point my number was two.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ramble, so many women are offended pretty much no matter what you do or say, objectively. Men hit on me? Offended they think I am easy! Nobody hits on me? Offended that nobody thinks I am attractive!

    The fact that both cannot logically happen at the same time is irrelevant, unless you think outside the box and realize she WANTS to be offended and is just searching for some convenient reason. And that offense is usually some sort of tactic to get something else – sympathy, maybe emotional support, maybe dinner, whatever.

    The wise man accepts it, dismisses it all as mildly annoying but ultimately pointless dramatic emotional turmoil, and doesn’t let it change his actions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ramble, so many women are offended pretty much no matter what you do or say, objectively.

      Way to generalize! Sheesh, I’m not allowed to be offended by an inappropriate sexual proposition from my friend’s fiance who was only pretending to have a broken down car? That was offensive on so many levels…and he showed his true colors that night. If he’s never cheated on his wife, it’s thanks to me.

  • Wudang

    “I agree with this. For the record, I have already told my daughter that now (just post college) is the time to begin searching for a quality man. If she finds him tomorrow, I’ll be thrilled, and do not feel that she has to delay marriage just because she is young. But I still hope she would delay childbirth for a few years.”

    I read an interesting theory about this. I think it was Athol who said it. If the woman has not gotten pregnant in the first three years of the relationship both partners bodies/subconcious might reject the other because no baby means evoloutionary failure. This can be the case even it they don`t want children now or ever. One can think of it like this: The first 3 years is normally the end point of the first crush/infatuation/crazy in love feelings/amphetamine rush and marks the point where many couples only have pair bonding feelings of love and maybe sexual attraction maybe not but no more of the first love feelings. If the couple has a baby within that time there might be some sort of signaling in the brain or intermixing of chemicals that makes the brain keep producing a fair amount of amphetamins++ to keep a moderate amount of the crazy in love feelings going together with the pair bonding feelings. Helen Fishers research shows 13% of long term couples do keep feelings from the first more manic love alongside pair bonding feelings but most do not. I have no idea if there is any correlation between being in that group and at what time they had a child or if they ever had one. Obviously there are also couples who have childlessly stayed together strongly in love for life so there is no either or and there is zero evidence for the theory but I find it intriguing because it makes some sense. Some couples would have an infertile partner and it would sense for there to be inbuilt mechanisms to aid in rejecting someone who’s shown themselves to be infertile and not vast more time with them and to aid in keeping round someone who’s shown themselves to be fertile.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      That is an interesting theory. There may be some effect, but for a lot of people that would mean having no time alone before kids. I am so glad my husband and I had that carefree time to enjoy one another without the cares of parenting. We got together in ’82, married in ’84 and had our first child in ’87. I would very definitely not have wanted to move that up by two years.

  • Ramble

    I think a lot of guys need some basic red pill stuff, then a nudge, and they’ll do fine.

    Susan, that guy, as far as I can tell, did not so much get the red pill but a road map and some hand-holding from someone who has apparently had plenty of experience getting new pussy.

    The other guy who is unwilling to try but IS willing to complain may very well have taken the red pill as well.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, that guy, as far as I can tell, did not so much get the red pill but a road map and some hand-holding from someone who has apparently had plenty of experience getting new pussy.

      The other guy who is unwilling to try but IS willing to complain may very well have taken the red pill as well.

      Do you realize you’re questioning the usefulness of taking the red pill?

  • Jason773

    Escoffier,

    Jason, I sort of sympathize with those guys. You may think you can exlpain to them how to do it right and your tactics may indeed be right but not everyone can put it into practice.

    I don’t know where confidence with women comes from but I don’t think it’s so easy to learn. I also don’t think it’s a simple outgrowth of confidence in other fields. I was never very smooth around women and still am not. You can exhort me all you want and it won’t matter. I don’t have the inner game to do cold approaches and the like and I don’t think my personality could ever be trained for it.

    I do have a bit of sympathy for their situation, thus my offers to help. What I don’t have is sympathy for the guy who gets offered help, refuses, then makes fun of others who are trying to improve. I fully understand that for some, just doing a single cold approach seems like the most daunting task in the world. The guy who I am ‘training’ opened up multiple sets throughout the night (with me about 60sec behind him so I could analyze his approaches), and though he started off a bit rusty, he improved a bunch from his first set of the night to his last.

    This guy, who is at least trying, does not need to come back to a group where one guy trys to dog him out the whole time. Later in the night I literally told this guy to go talk to a girl himself instead of grasping a drink and bopping his head around dudes all night, or simply fuck off. He got the message.

  • OffTheCuff

    Oh, and Sue, I am sort of running with the story a bit… Not saying you were looking for offense there. Bit of a tanget on my part. But I see it a whole lot…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Oh, OK, I took offense (again!) too soon.

  • J

    Congrats, Herb! (I hope.)

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    That’s awesome that you helped your buddy out, and that he saw improvement immediately. I think a lot of guys need some basic red pill stuff, then a nudge, and they’ll do fine. Especially if they want a gf, not to tear up the scene with SNLs.

    Yea, it’s definitely a lot of fun for me too, especially when a guy is receptive to what I’m trying to get across. Right this second my buddy is on gchat peppering me with questions about body language, kino, etc. lol. It looks like he got a taste and wants to see what it’s all about.

    And don’t worry Susan, this is the kind of guy who would simply love to have a gf who adores him and who he adores back. Just need to get him there.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jason773

    The resistance to this is truly amazing. Guys will see what works over and over and over again, and still dismiss it, make excuses and complain about their terrible luck.

    I hear you man. The thing is that this is definitely not just a guy problem. Women are very prone to this type of behavior as well. My sister is the prime example of this.

    While we were growing up, she often asked me why/how I was able to garner the attention of boys while she had a harder time with it. I’ve told her the ways of “girl game” and offered suggestions of how she could improve herself countless times. She still, to this day, refuses to listen to me whenever I offer her advice about guys or whenever I offer to be her wingwoman.

    Her problems mostly stem from the fact that she is painfully shy. She sincerely doesn’t know how to flirt with men or how to signal interest. She wonders why the men don’t approach her, and most of that stems from her inability to give men the green light to approach her. She’s 26, never had a boyfriend, and still a virgin. I’m hoping that things work out for her eventually, but I’m not sure that they will without her being willing to change/improve certain aspects of herself.

  • Jason773

    Ramble,

    Susan, that guy, as far as I can tell, did not so much get the red pill but a road map and some hand-holding from someone who has apparently had plenty of experience getting new pussy.

    That’s fair enough. My friend is a person I would consider a truly nice guy, who legit does things to help others out, not because he expects something in return, but just because he likes to make others happy. I have no problem trying to help him out and give him a solid road-map.

    With some good guidance (and acceptance on his part) I’m sure I can make his journey a lot less troublesome than most, in about half the time. And to be fair, he is short (about 5’8″) but he pretty good looking, in shape and intelligent (an engineer), so those things help in the process.

  • Wudang

    @Susan

    I agree. I`d like some time loan first as well. But for 99,9% of history babies started coming quickly as long as you had sex so that is kind of unatural although enjoyable.

  • J

    There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson.

    Yeah, that’s true; I stand corrected. Sometimes the bitching just gets overwhelming.

    @OTC

    David Collard???? The spanker??? LMAO.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “That’s a great story and great advice. There’s no downside to keeping your eyes wide open early if you have the self-discipline to be that selective. After college, when some dating does occur, I think it’s essential that young women be on the lookout for red flags and continually assess whether the man they’re interested in is “still” marriage material. What is needed is a strong and consistently applied filter. The opportunity cost of wasting time dating people who are not marriage material is high for both sexes, but especially high for women in view of the timeline.”
    —————

    Susan,
    Hopefully you don’t feel offended by my comments because they’re not aimed at you directly.
    It’s not that I don’t know quite a bit of never married single folks, because I certainly do.
    I just want to present a different strategy than the more prevalent ones out there.
    True, there are those relationships that didn’t pan out, but, at least, there was a genuine effort to make them work. Of course, the advice is sound only IF you’re selective and only when you’re willing to nip it at the bud if there’s a problem before becoming too invested in the other person.
    Kinda piggybacking on Obsidian’s observation-
    successful relationships, like anything else, don’t just fall from the sky- they require deliberate actions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      successful relationships, like anything else, don’t just fall from the sky- they require deliberate actions.

      I’d say that’s the overarching message of my site. That and not making those deliberate actions random hookups.

      I wasn’t at all offended, your point was totally valid.

  • Ramble

    I was offended by both aspects – that’s why I said double insult. I was definitely not slutty in college, at that point my number was two.

    So, would you have only been “singly” insulted had he tried this after your number was higher (and included a ONS or two)?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      So, would you have only been “singly” insulted had he tried this after your number was higher (and included a ONS or two)?

      If I had a reputation for casual sex, and he approached me for some, I would not have been insulted. I definitely would not have had a right to take offense. As it was, my college bf and I double dated with Bill and Mary a lot. He was way out of bounds on every level.

  • Herb

    @Susan and J
    Well, the short version:

    1. We have talked about moving in together, which, to be honest, as a 45 yo member of the ‘sphere in some ways appeals more than marriage (but not in others). While I initiated it a while back she’s brought it up more lately. Still some issues, but we’ll see.

    2. She has brought up the issue of monogamy (not me). It’s also been clear of late although she’s still nominally poly I am getting much more time than the other two combined. When asked she’s admitted she’s putting the lion’s share of energy into me.

    3. This past weekend was SELF, the event we met at last year. Talking about how friends encouraged me to volunteer at events to meet people she substituted met with another m-word by accident (that’s the Freudian slip). Took us both by surprise to the point it took 15 minutes to remember the prior topic.

    So, I’m not sure. I mean, this is the longest I’ve been with someone…well, yeah, since my marriage (I had a ldr thing that lasted longer but we’ve had more face time long ago). In fact, this is now my longest relationship outside of my marriage. I’m happier today than I was a year ago when it was all NRE (and clearly happier than in March when I had to sit down and work through the whole poly thing). I still have some worries and I still plan on taking it slow (given children aren’t on the table for us we have more time than we might).

    But I’m hopeful.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      That sounds really encouraging, and it also points to the need for patience sometimes. As you say, you don’t have time pressure, but one of the things that ends promising relationships early is that one party gets impatient and makes too many demands too soon. They fail to calibrate the escalation, whether emotional or sexual. Obviously, that can vary enormously by couple, and commitment tends to follow that.

  • Ramble

    My friend is a person I would consider a truly nice guy, who legit does things to help others out, not because he expects something in return, but just because he likes to make others happy.

    Sounds like a good man and it sounds like he is getting solid advice.

    These are my favorite stories.

  • J

    @Ted

    Oh, wow. Congratulations!!! All the best to the both of you.

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    I hear what you’re saying as well. I think it can be especially difficult for a female if she isn’t a typical beauty while being very shy. My first gf in college was extremely shy upon meeting, and was seemingly unreceptive to approaches because she had a tendency to completely ‘freeze up’, but the fact that she was very pretty gave her enough opportunities to meet men.

    Girl game is certainly needed among some ladies though, and I’m sure that can be tough to swallow for some.

  • J

    I still plan on taking it slow (given children aren’t on the table for us we have more time than we might).

    That makes a lot of sense, Herb. If I were in the market for a second husband, I’d go slow too. No hurry now that having a family is not an issue.

  • Ramble

    Do you realize you’re questioning the usefulness of taking the red pill?

    I didn’t mean to.

    What I was trying to communicate was that you can “take the red pill” and barely get any better at getting girls. And, you can learn how to get better with girls while not getting much of a Red Pill-ish education.

    Sometimes they go hand in hand and sometimes they don’t.

    For some guys, taking the red pill simply increases their bitterness (though, I don’t think it would in and of itself make them bitter…but that is probably splitting hairs).

    And, for some guys, getting better with girls simply turns them into a douche.

    But, my guess is that getting some of both (red pill and picking up girls) will make most men better long term material.

  • Escoffier

    Jason, what I notice in your response is a thread I often see on game sites, viz., the undercurrent that any man who can’t or won’t learn pick up is somehow not a real man.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Early congrats, Ted D!

    Wudang, about the kids thing, from everything I hear sex plummets after having a kid, and I know couples whose marriage failed before the kid turned 3. So I don’t know that neurochemically kids really solidify lifelong bonds. It is more true that among more educated, future-oriented people who are high on conscientiousness, marriage lasts longer.

  • Alias

    Susan:
    “There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. ”
    ——–

    Yes, these men aren’t the norm. Also, most relationship forums are for discussing individual’s issues not the bigger societal picture, like this blog attempts to address.
    BTW, has anyone “seen” Munson lately?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      BTW, has anyone “seen” Munson lately?

      He’s been at Private Man’s blog recently, and stopped in here very briefly a couple of weeks ago. I believe he is still undergoing chemo, but have had no other reports.

  • Jason773

    Escoffier,

    Jason, what I notice in your response is a thread I often see on game sites, viz., the undercurrent that any man who can’t or won’t learn pick up is somehow not a real man.

    Interesting that you somehow picked this up, when I think this couldn’t be further from the truth. Do I think just about all guys could benefit in some form from Game? Sure I do. Do I ever chastize or put down my friends who are/were Game averse? No, I don’t. I simply offered a helping hand after seeing failure after failure, and if they want to take me up that’s great. If not, then no harm.

    But why should I put up with someone’s negative attitude when it is coming from a place of pure jealousy and spite? The guy I told off, yes, I offered him help, and he didn’t take it, but I never made fun of him or made him feel less of a man. He was the one trying to put down our other buddy in order to make himself feel better. That’s something I’ve noticed a lot in guys who don’t consider or condone game.

  • Ramble

    Jason, what I notice in your response is a thread I often see on game sites, viz., the undercurrent that any man who can’t or won’t learn pick up is somehow not a real man.

    Whoa, I did not read that at all.

    One guy is lonely and is receptive to some genuine advice.

    Another guy is lonely and,
    1.) Is not receptive and
    2.) Willing to badmouth the guy who is.

    It’s the second part that is egregious. If he only wanted to sit in his room and cry to himself without bothering anyone else, then, while pathetic, no worries.

    He is only harming himself.

    However, here, he is looking to take someone else down with him.

  • Alias

    OTC:
    “as men generally prefer sex over knitting.”
    ——-

    WHAT?!
    You’re kidding me, right? ha
    Yes, you’re right, I forgot about all of those happily married bloggers. But, you have to admit that majority of their readership only lands on their blogs because they’re in trouble. Most happily married men don’t gather together to brag and gush about their great relationships. Hopefully, those bloggers are setting a new trend.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “It’s the second part that is egregious. If he only wanted to sit in his room and cry to himself without bothering anyone else, then, while pathetic, no worries.

    He is only harming himself.

    However, here, he is looking to take someone else down with him.”

    Unfortunately this is human nature. Not only are most people unwilling to change, they HATE to see someone else succeed where they failed, or in this case where they never tried to succeed themselves. And the saying “misery loves company” ties in nicely here.

  • Ramble

    Most happily married men don’t gather together to brag and gush about their great relationships.

    Alias, is that something you would want? I mean, would you also want them starting lolcatz blogs as well?

  • Ramble

    Ted, that’s right.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    College is an opportunity to get an education, and that should be the highest priority of everyone there. Once you graduate, your highest priority should be putting that education to good use. That does not preclude a relationship, but it doesn’t emphasize it either.

    You know, prior to ~1990 a *majority* of women who went to college met their future spouses there. I see your point about women waiting until 28 to marry, but I’m not sure that’s true for the non-graduate degree crowd. I’m all for people getting good relationship experience with someone you love, even though it may not work out in the long-run. I actually think quite a few college women go through their undergraduate careers single, with little or no intimacy. Pretty sad, actually, for the guys and the girls.

    Inadvertantly, you’ve validated serial monogamy at best, and the hookup scene at worst. And many of your male regulars view serial monogamy as not much better than promiscuity. It’s a good question, though… why should a guy looking for a serious relationship in college ever get involved with someone? After all, these aren’t *real* relationships, and he’s bound to have his heart broken, if it’s the girl doing the dumping after graduation.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      why should a guy looking for a serious relationship in college ever get involved with someone? After all, these aren’t *real* relationships, and he’s bound to have his heart broken, if it’s the girl doing the dumping after graduation.

      First, I know of many more men who end college relationships then women. I’ve always had the impression it’s because they are less willing to do the LDR thing, presumably owing to the lack of sex.

      Second, in the 70s we dated in high school and college, went steady, broke up, dated some more, went steady again, etc. It was never a case of dating one person and sewing up your future then and there. And those relationships were sexual – not very different from relationships today. Speaking for myself, I am very glad I experienced those relationships, and I’m very relieved I didn’t marry anyone I met before the age of 25. Those relationships taught me what I need and want in a partner. I’m not saying everyone needs to have that experience, but many people do, and I think marriage is better for it, overall.

      There are good reasons for women to get an education, not the least of which is that most families need two incomes. If two people meet in high school or college and know they want to marry at some point, that’s great, I would never recommend that people break up just because they are young. But the statistics are pretty clear – divorce rates go down as marriage age goes up, at least for quite a while. YMMV of course.

  • Escoffier

    all right, my mistake

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms hope:
    You have specifically mentioned “education” and “future orientation” in your remarks about the odds of a marriage lasting longer. What do you say of murrays arguments per the bell curve? Do you agree with them or not and why? And how does this dovetail with my question “do black women select for intelligence in their men?”?

    Comments?

    O.

  • Alias

    Ramble:
    “Alias, is that something you would want? I mean, would you also want them starting lolcatz blogs as well?”
    ——
    If the men want to and it helps strengthen relationships, then why not?
    _
    ___________________________________________
    Ted D:
    ““ragging” on your wife is a time honored tradition among males (and I’m sure females as well) and it just isn’t very good for a man’s reputation with other men to go on and on about how awesome their GF/Wife is.”
    ——–
    This is such a terrible habit to get into- similar to:
    “Hey, long time no see, how have you been?”
    “Well, not too good. I’ve been having diarrhea and have to make a pitstop every ½ hour, plus it burns.”
    “Uh, Oh-Kay, it was nice seeing you, gotta go”
    “Waaaait, are you going to the john? I’ll come with you!”
    We all know people like this.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Herb, that sounds really nice. I hope it works out for the best.

    I think most people get some “curiosity” about the poly thing, but in practice it seems like a really difficult feat to pull off for real. Somebody always has to occupy the #1 spot. :P

  • Ramble

    If the men want to and it helps strengthen relationships, then why not?

    That is fine, but, that does not have the same tone that I picked up on the original comment. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

    But, you are probably right, some more male driven lolcatz sites might do their relationships some good.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Obsidian, I’m not black, but I’d say educated black women with high future time orientation tend to choose men of similar backgrounds and do have longer-lasting marriages. The couples I mentioned previously are still married, lasting over 10 years (I met them in college — they were in their 30s and were working at my undergrad or were wives of university employees).

    In one case, the woman was an immigrant from Africa. She grew up quite poor and saw her mother and brother violently killed in front of her. She came to the US, went to college, got a job in IT, and is living a middle class life. She is not a looker, doesn’t have light skin, and her weight range was on the high side. She also had two kids last I heard, with her husband. I don’t think she fits the stereotype of the high-SES, high-achieving black female.

  • Desiderius

    “successful relationships, like anything else, don’t just fall from the sky- they require deliberate actions.

    I’d say that’s the overarching message of my site. That and not making those deliberate actions random hookups.”

    Bingo.

    I get the sense that the rising generation of women has become skeptical about the second-wave hookup norm, but they lack a good understanding of the alternatives beyond a vague sense of being more passive (likely a reaction to what the sex-pozzies advocate), which isn’t much of an improvement if they fail to emotionally escalate/actively scout out good prospects.

    Specifically helping them understand the positive steps they can take is gold. Serial monogamy is likely better than just hooking up, but its not the best they can do (for that see Ana’s advice), especially if it involves slumming with a Herb (think Marnie/Charlie – you seem strangely oblivious to this phenomenon).

    Both of my grandmothers, who married very well and enjoyed great families/lifelong marriages, were dating (at least) three men at the time of their engagements. No sex until commitment, but no commitment until you’re sure he’s a good prospect for marriage and you’ve committed yourself to seeking that.

  • Herb

    @Hope

    I think most people get some “curiosity” about the poly thing, but in practice it seems like a really difficult feat to pull off for real. Somebody always has to occupy the #1 spot. :P

    Oh, poly people, at least some, acknowledge the fact that someone will be first. That’s where you get into primary relationships versus secondary relationships and all that weirdness. I had a friend in the Boston Goth scene who was in a group “secondaries without primaries” because he was his gf’s secondary relationship but had not other of his own.

    I have trouble keeping up with one personally. She, however, has been doing it for years (she got divorced around the same time as me and has been some form of poly since).

    It is a very different world or seems like it is (or wants to be). Still, it’s amazing what’s constant.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Tas is hitting it right and proper on “not wanting to be Act 2.” Especially if the guy’s Act 1 sucked.

    Act 1 for girl:
    Bad relationship, bad relationship, good relationship where virginity lost, bad relationship, bad relationship, ONS to be “wanted,” bad relationship, fling, bad relationship, fling, meh relationship, slut phase

    Act 2 for girl:
    This man loves me for me and doesn’t want my body!

    Act 1 for guy:
    no sex no sex no sex no sex no sex no sex no sex no sex no sex. Hear about everyone else having sex.

    Act 2 for guy:
    Find nice girl. She doesn’t want to have sex with you. Find out she was a slut before meeting you. She still wants your time, money, and affection, though

    Act 2 for girl, nice! Solid character development! Act 2 for guy: shit’s getting even WORSE

  • Abbot

    “Both of my grandmothers, who married very well and enjoyed great families/lifelong marriages, were dating (at least) three men at the time of their engagements. No sex until commitment, but no commitment until you’re sure he’s a good prospect for marriage and you’ve committed yourself to seeking that.”

    Wait! You mean to say that they did NOT require an expression embracing and exploration phase to make sure they knew the difference between their libidos and their hearts and knew that they were not “missing” anything and liberating themselves from the shackles of oppression and needed to find themselves and their true character via multi cock experimentation and were satisfied they were doing as men have always done and….and…?

    Have we been sold a pack of lies from complete and utter assholes? It can’t be.

  • Tom

    I am happily engaged so add me to the list.

    “They want what I have”

    My fiance is intelligent, happy, successful,ambitious,funny loving faithful,sensual, sexy, high libido,and loyal. Most men would kill to find all those qualities in one woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tom

      Congratulations, I didn’t know you were officially engaged!

  • PeppermintPanda

    @Obsidian

    I believe your comment (#364) largely reflects some of what I am talking about …

    Even though most people would (probably) not think that hygene is an “inner-game” issue, accepting that your hygene may be an issue would result in a substantial blow to your ego, and someone who hasn’t worked on their “inner-game” will likely take that very poorly; resulting in 600 (mostly angry) comments on your article.

    These men are using techniques to compensate for their real problems and using the Alpha-Male/Red-Pill language to feel superior; and often ignoring the underlying problems that have hurt their chances with women.

    On the topic of race, I’m mostly going to stay clear of that. About my only comment is I do think there are substantial differences between hook-up culture across the races given that 50% of black children, 25% of hispanic children, 13% of white children, and 10% of asian children are raised by single mothers.

    Although this is may not a realistic assumption, if you assume that single motherhood is directly proportional to promiscuity in women then it would imply that black women were substantially more promiscious than any other group. While men can pick-up/date women of any ethnic background, I would not be surprised if a man who predominantly picked-up/dated black women would have a substantially different view of things than a man who predominantly picked-up/dated white or asian women.

  • Tasmin

    @Tom
    Yep sounds just about right. Though admittedly I have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to ‘ambitious’. I would substitute ‘passionate’ or something like that. Either way, I was glad to see that you didn’t put ‘Hot’ on the list. I’m sure a lot of men find their wives to be ‘hot’, but ‘sensual’ and ‘sexy’ say so much more. And I tend to associate the whole ‘hot’ thing with the tramps and players all scrambling toward the hottest. Young women today need to hear that men value the classy feminine qualities in a wife more often. ‘Hot’ should be reserved for those girls in 4″ heels and 4″ skirts stumbling toward the taco cart out front of the club at 3AM. Thats hot.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “But the statistics are pretty clear – divorce rates go down as marriage age goes up, at least for quite a while. YMMV of course.”

    Not sure if that’s the best metric if one’s goal is to be married by 35, say. Apples to apples would be comparing those who married 23-27, allowing for some natural delay that arises from people taking longer to establish their careers, versus all those who didn’t, including those who remained single throughout.

    The former almost certainly has a higher rate of success in reaching that goal. The vast majority of successful marriages with which I am familiar fall into that category. The lower divorce rate among those who do marry late likely has something to do with an appreciation for how lucky they were to find someone acceptable at that late date, and a concomitant commitment to make it work with that person.

    BTW, one grandmother married at 23 (they met in grad school, he was the same age), the other at 20, though she was well on her way to establishing her career at the time (they met in business college, he was a 26-year-old WWII vet). They both has steadies in high school, but were not exclusive at the time my grandfathers proposed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Sorry if I was not clear. I didn’t mean to suggest that marrying later than average is a good strategy. I think research shows that 23-26 or so is the sweet spot.

  • Desiderius

    Abbot,

    “Wait! You mean to say that they did NOT require an expression embracing and exploration phase to make sure they knew the difference between their libidos and their hearts and knew that they were not “missing” anything and liberating themselves from the shackles of oppression and needed to find themselves and their true character via multi cock experimentation and were satisfied they were doing as men have always done and….and…?”

    No, but the grandmother that married at 20 was absolutely a femme fatale. I seriously doubt she was a virgin. What she did appreciate, and what young women today with their status symbol and/or herbly boyfriends seem to miss, is the extent to which her having a boyfriend would have cut down on her options. A man who wanted her exclusive attentions needed to produce a ring to secure it.

  • Abbot

    “A man who wanted her exclusive attentions needed to produce a ring to secure it.”

    Many, many men today probably would like to have that option thus making that ring worth the purchase

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Based on my research, here are the five most common reasons cited for marrying the wrong guy:

    1. We’ve dated for so long I don’t want to waste all the time we have invested in the relationship.
    2. I don’t want to be alone.
    3. He’ll change after we get married.
    4. It is too late, too embarrassing and/or too expensive to call off the wedding
    5. He is a really nice guy; I don’t want to hurt his feelings.

    That is a clear reference to women marrying unsuitable men, while in unhealthy relationships, i.e. cads.”

    This list fits the “slumming/settling for the herb she doesn’t love/respect” explanation much better than the “going for the cad” one, especially number 5.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      This list fits the “slumming/settling for the herb she doesn’t love/respect” explanation much better than the “going for the cad” one, especially number 5.

      #5 is clearly about not being in love. #3 is clearly about cads. #s 1, 2 and 4 can easily go either way.

  • Abbot

    Epiphany

    Is female promiscuity defended so strongly by some groups because it is considered a “reproductive right?” or reproductive activity. And maybe that is why there is such trigger hair sensitivity to this so-called slut shaming because anything that gets in the way of their precious reproductive options is an anathema…including men who merely refuse to buy into the propaganda du jour

  • Ramble

    There are good reasons for women to get an education, not the least of which is that most families need two incomes.

    As far as I can tell, the main reason why couples need 2 incomes is because of all the other couples with 2 incomes.

  • Alias

    Ted D, Tom, Herb too?
    Congratulations & best of luck to all!
    _________________________________

    Susan,
    “five most common reasons cited for marrying the wrong guy:”
    That’s a good list.

  • Esau

    Though it might be (uncharacteristically?) bland of me, I would like to put in word of approval on the OP here. There’s a lot of good content here, and from my experience I would particularly highlight these two points:

    Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)

    + many. So simple, almost profound, and yet probably very under-appreciated advice. For a woman who’s willing to take her time this almost a universal solvent, especially with a guy toward the beta end of the spectrum. Pulling him squarely into your personal space, and vice versa, is an unmistakable way to indicate that the woman is comfortable with him escalating physically, without her having to say anything verbally explicit or completely take the lead. Doing so consistently will give the beta guy time to internalize and really believe that his body is attractive, a concept that may be new to him but he will welcome once there’s evidence for it.

    Keeping it physical but non-sexual, without her escalating, will keep her out of the slut box; it’s a way of achieving the point from the OP, “If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear.” And if she continues to be manifestly physical with him, but manifestly not with anyone else, then this will serve both points #1 and #6 from the OP. So, really, this advice is just all to the good.

    Meanwhile, this from the OP also caught my eye:

    Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side.

    Is it fair to say, that this is the opposite of shit-testing? or the opposite of combat dating more generally? As I’ve mentioned here before, I think shit-testing is a deplorable and self-destructive tactic, because (among other problems) it inhibits trust, and so makes establishing a successful LTR exponentially more difficult. Again, this advice is so simple and so valuable, and yet almost certainly under-appreciated.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Props from you = a HUS milestone. Thanks for the feedback. I think you have added some valuable guidance re how a woman can invite physical escalation without assuming responsibility for it herself. We cannot restore any sort of balance to the SMP until we embrace natural sex differences. That means literally teaching young people what they are, and then giving them permission to follow their instincts.

      Re having a guy’s back, I agree that it is the opposite of shit testing. Instead of trying to constantly qualify a man after a relationship has already begun, women would do well to filter aggressively for character and then go all in when they find it. It is the opposite of combat dating – something’s got to give. This is one area where I think women need to show the white flag.

  • J

    @Tom

    Congratulations on your engagement. Love is obviously in the air!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    I’ll generally agree that waiting until after college to get married is a good idea. Women marrying at a later age could very well be the result of dating the men they ultimately marry for several years, living with them, etc. in advance of the actual contract date : ) That’s what I’ve observed, anyway.

    Some cases in point:
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-11-09-delayed-marriage_N.htm

    I wouldn’t advise women to wait until they’re over 30 to marry, though, especially if they want to have kids. At that point, only ~1/2 of single guys their age are even interested in marriage, so the probability of meeting someone compatible drops precipitously. Age, income, religion, family upbringing, education, personality, even political affiliation all have different effects on divorce rates.

    I wonder, though, at what point does positive experience turn into emotional baggage? Instinct tells me that as N > some “normal” amount, be it # of failed relationships or # of sex partners, a person tends to burn out WRT relationship suitability. Relationships that end by choice, rarely end well, so one person will be on the receiving end of most of the pain. Did you get dumped as often as you did the dumping?

    This is the downside of serial monogamy IMO, even though it’s preferable to the hookup scene. Even if you don’t mean to intentionally hurt someone, there’s always (non-collateral) damage being done. And the more unsuccessful relationships a person is involved in, the more damage he or she ends up causing. It’s just a lot less conscientious than say, being very careful who you get involved with, emotionally and sexually. The tradeoff there is, people who are careful spend a lot of time single, which isn’t such a bad thing, up to a point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I wouldn’t advise women to wait until they’re over 30 to marry, though, especially if they want to have kids.

      A woman purposely delaying commitment until 30 is insane. That’s the Kate Bolick lesson. We know fertility drops off at 27. We can only tinker with our biology for so long. Personally, I would like to see the average age at marriage drop back by 3-4 years. I don’t think we’ll see that anytime soon, though.

      I wonder, though, at what point does positive experience turn into emotional baggage? Instinct tells me that as N > some “normal” amount, be it # of failed relationships or # of sex partners, a person tends to burn out WRT relationship suitability.

      I agree, and I don’t know the answer to this question. For one thing, I don’t think the result of failed relationships is the same as # casual partners. I think there are emotional consequences for both, but how they vary is uncertain, at least to me. And I think there can be a lot of variability based on circumstances as well as the personalities of the parties involved. For example, it’s well known that resilience varies a lot among people who were sexually abused. Some survive years of incest and go on to marry and parent successfully, while others are touched inappropriately once and avoid relationships their whole lives. Psychologists are studying why some people can bounce back while others cannot. To a much lesser extent, I think that happens with disappointment and heartbreak in relationships as well.

      It’s just a lot less conscientious than say, being very careful who you get involved with, emotionally and sexually. The tradeoff there is, people who are careful spend a lot of time single, which isn’t such a bad thing, up to a point.

      Well that’s the crux of the matter. With 15 years between puberty and avg. age at marriage, what is the consequence of spending most of that time single? What can we realistically expect of people in terms of caution, self-discipline, etc. vs. their desire and need to experience emotional and physical connection with members of the opposite sex? No easy answers here.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Sorry if I was not clear. I didn’t mean to suggest that marrying later than average is a good strategy. I think research shows that 23-26 or so is the sweet spot.”

    No, I know. Just saying that the lower divorce rate argument the marriage-delayers like to use is less compelling than it appears.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.

    Heh that is a funny excuse to have.

    And, although I’ve kept it quiet, we are indeed getting married this August.

    Oh boy you are such a man. No woman would had kept that news quiet that long. Congratulations and best wishes :D

    As it was, my college bf and I double dated with Bill and Mary a lot. He was way out of bounds on every level.

    Let’s be generous with him, maybe he picked you because he knew you will turn him down and that is what he needed to avoid going for “Slutty Susie” and doing something he will regret. Subconscious can be funny like that.

    Although this is may not a realistic assumption, if you assume that single motherhood is directly proportional to promiscuity in women then it would imply that black women were substantially more promiscious than any other group.

    You need to remember that you live in a country were abortion is legal. You need to find out how many of this groups are pro-choice vs pro-life to see if this is a good guess.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Let’s be generous with him, maybe he picked you because he knew you will turn him down and that is what he needed to avoid going for “Slutty Susie” and doing something he will regret. Subconscious can be funny like that.

      I think I suspected that. I had always thought of him as a good man before. And I believe he has been a very good husband and father. It was a youthful indiscretion, and he is lucky that he did come to someone who saved him from being an idiot. He had to have known I would never have done that to Mary.

      I wouldn’t be 21 again for anything!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Herb
    I won’t congratulate you yet because I don’t want to jinx it, but I’m eagerly waiting to be able to do so.

  • Ian

    There is one area where Roissy is absolutely right and everyone else has it wrong: most genuine alphas can tell you stories about well-regarded, supposedly well-behaved women that would cause most women and BETAs to curl up in a fetal position and refuse to get out of bed. The dark alpha’s contempt for and distrust of women in general isn’t always born out of misogyny or personal issues, but rather direct personal experience.

    I’ll add that this is a blind spot for women. Even if you know that something happened with a girl-friend, you don’t know the grimiest details, didn’t have the visceral experience of it; lust tearing down the sacred, rutting on top of it, enjoying the act exponentially more the more wrong you can make it.

    A point of doing the unspeakable is that you can’t speak of it. When you do, it’s shocking, like telling children there’s no Santa Claus, and you become a deviant. There’s a ton of mud bubbling below people’s psychological surface, part of what makes civilization function is agreeing that it doesn’t exist.

    Marriage and all trust relationships benefit from that agreement.

  • Kurt

    This entire alpha/beta context is confusing to me. Can’t the same man be considered “alpha” to some women and “beta” to other women? It seems as though the distinction is primarily based on his confidence level around those different women. Most men probably do become more “alpha” as they age simply because they get more confident and experienced and stop putting up with crappy behavior from women.

  • Tom

    Tas
    Yep sounds just about right. Though admittedly I have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to ‘ambitious’. I would substitute ‘passionate’ or something like that.
    ________
    She is doing what she needs to do to work her way up the corporate ladder at a major bank. By the way she is not a young girl. Ambitious is the right word for her. I forgot responsible.

  • Tom

    Congratulations, I didn’t know you were officially engaged!

    Thanks Susan, as of two Fridays ago.

  • Tom

    Alias and J

    Thanks!

  • Tom

    I know it has been mentioned here before, but Abbott supplied a link to Match.com that suggested 35% of relationships started as a ONS. I find that stat interesting. To me that suggests that over one third of men had no problem with their prospective mate having a one nighter. Lets face it, it probably was not their first time. Could be like finds like. But a one nighter is supposed to be a one time thing, so other than good sex, other sparks must have flown. Interesting.

  • Ted D

    Ana – “Oh boy you are such a man. No woman would had kept that news quiet that long. Congratulations and best wishes ”

    Like I said, this is round two for both of us. We aren’t making a big deal of it. In fact, we are going to Vegas (I know, tacky. But I’ve never been so I see it as a great reason to go!) Plus we’ve been living together two years, it has just taken this long to get all the legal crap resolved and plan something.

  • Abbot

    “over one third of men had no problem with their prospective mate having a one nighter.”

    Define one-nighter when obviously it was in the context of a relationship. And of course, it was his dick so why would he have a problem? Makes no sense.

    Match.com is such a credible source for data so if you believe the above you must believe this too from Match.com -

    “24% of men and 23% of women ages 21-34 are virgins.”

    Yep yep, uh huh. A quarter of all young adults. Well, maybe they mixed up the data with the research done in Latin America. Mistakes happen.

    http://blog.match.com/2011/02/04/everything-you-think-you-know-about-singles-is-wrong-we-separate-fact-from-fiction-with-the-first-comprehensive-study-of-singles-in-america/

  • Escoffier

    Kurt:

    I think so. It makes sense to think of alpha and beta both as intrinsic and as relative qualities. There is an archetype for each but also when comparing actual individuals, some will have more of one set of traits and less of the other. A person can be intrinsically beta but more alpha than all the betas around him. That may or may not help him with the ladies, depending on who they are and their mood.

    Similarly, drop an intrinsically alpha guy into a Navy SEAL team and suddenly compared to them he might seem beta.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Similarly, drop an intrinsically alpha guy into a Navy SEAL team and suddenly compared to them he might seem beta.

      I’ve read that the first guys to bounce out of SEAL training are the athletes and gym rats. All physical strength. The guys who make it are the ones who are tough as nails mentally.

  • Ramble

    Ted, in case you aren’t that interested in gambling, there are a ton of good things to do in Vegas.

    So, here is a short list of activities (that you did not ask for):
    – Karting, there is a great place fairly close to the strip
    – Jet Skiing on Lake Meade
    – Golfing (I am not a golfer, but their is a Callaway test center where you can choose whatever Callaway clubs you are thinking of purchasing and play with them…you can mix and match to try different kinds and they do not try to sell you anything)
    – If you go to a Cirque du Soleil show, I recommend that you go to “O”. My friends work at “Ka”, and he is proud of it, but everyone seems to prefer “O”.
    – tons of good places to eat. Simply go to the Vegas board on Chowhound for the lowdown.
    – Gun ranges where you can shoot in the desert. They even have things like Gatling guns and flame throwers…it can get expensive.
    – Of course, there are strip joints Strip joints (if that is what your wife is into)
    – And, as always, people watching.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Abott nails it!

    O.

  • http://areallthegoodnamesgone.blogspot.com Ted D

    Ramble – “Ted, in case you aren’t that interested in gambling, there are a ton of good things to do in Vegas.”

    Cut and pasted your list for future reference. Thanks! We are planning on a day trip to the Grand Canyon, and I’m shooting for Hoover Dam as well, but other than that so far we have only planned to take in a show or two.

  • Escoffier

    Ted, Vegas is also one of the great restaurant towns of the US (no joke) and home to the best in the country (Robuchon). It’s expensive as hell, naturally. There are other options.

  • Escoffier

    The other weekend I watched several episodes of a show about SEAL training. The first thing I would say is, they are all athletes and gym rats to some extent. You can’t get in the door without being in phenomenal shape in the first place. Second, the instructors said many times that it’s very unpredictable who will drop. They said that in the first couple of days that can usually identify the 10-15% who have no chance and the 10-15% who will almost certainly make it. Beyond that, they have no idea and success is primarily mental.

    The stuff they put them through was unbelievable.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @peppermint panda #460:
    You misunderstand me and again i think this has to do with you more than merely academic problems with game; the spearhead incident i was talking about involved an audience in general that was decidedly anti-game to begin with; every article i wrote that was game oriented got a negative response from readers; it was the “600+ comments of hate” that really did it. Please check it out for yourself and let me know what you think:

    “ltr game & the great recession”

    Google it using the above search terms along with my name.

    As for how issues surrounding love/sex/relationships etc play themselves out in black america, while i hear precisely what youre saying, i think its profound like a mofo that you-someone who by his own admission doesnt want to get involved in the debate-can clearly see whats going on there and it aint good.

    First off lemme correct you: *70% of ALL black kids are born out of wedlock*; black men AND black women have substantially higher rates of stds; black men and women also engage in concurrent sexual relationships more than do white etc folk.

    Additionally, black folk get married less and divorce more; cohabitate more than white/asian folk do; have higher rates of domestic violence and other forms of relationship-related assault. Black men in particular have a higher rate of adultery when married, which actually goes UP the higher up the socoeconomic chain he is (source: banks). And on top of all that, even black women who are solidly middle class and college educated have a higher rate of oow birthing than their white/jewish/asian sisters. Black women also have the highest abortion rate.

    When i say that there IS no analog to what hymowitz calls “the mission” please trust that i am not just talking out of the side of my neck. Black folks put way more focus and attention into their cars (black men) and their hairdos filled with fake hair (black women) than they do anywhere near the kinds of near-obsessive, near-neurotic levels of deadly focus on who/how to get a life mate that is all par for the course here at hus and that hymowitz was talking about. Simply put it is clear as a bell that whites and asians have a vastly different set of expectations along these and other lines than black folks do, and no i aint talking about doing a white/asian/jewish umc to blacks in the hood apples to oranges comparison; im talking about comparing class for class. The things i mentioned about holds roughly constant at all leves in black america.

    Going back to my experience at the concert in central park where i was so flagrantly hit on, im not even gonna front-there are scores of broths who wouldve hopped right on the chance to get some “strange p*ssy”-but not me. For one thing, i had put some two months of planning to woo and seduce ms brown sugah, mapping out in exacting detail every step of the seduction process. That was before our first date. Trust me when i tell you that the vast majority of brothas aint doin that. When i say the chief reason why i didnt follow up on that broad in the park hitting on me was because to do so would be to forfeit on all that i had worked so hard for and invested in you can best belief thats the honest to gods truth.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Tom

    abbott
    ____
    Define one-nighter when obviously it was in the context of a relationship. And of course, it was his dick so why would he have a problem? Makes no sense
    _______________
    Ok Abbott I will explain it so even you can understand.

    The hookup was meant to be a one nighter, but they connected, not just sexually but emotionally or on some other level. It was strong enough that they decided to see each other again. It makes sense to the rational thinker. This is not the only source that suggests at least one third of men will not disqualify a woman based soley on their sexual past.

  • Ramble

    My understanding is that the #1 thing that prevents someone from being a SEAL is the Freezing Water test.

    They have to sit under freezing water for an extended period of time with Scuba gear. I can’t remember how long they do this but that it drops a higher percentage of applicants than anything else.
    ================

    Apparently, one of the problems that instructors have in instilling in the SEALs is how to accurately determine which situations are too dangerous to enter and which are not.

    They choose the toughest guys and train them for the most difficult situations but then want them to be “smart” about what choices they make. The SEALs, understandably, think they can take on anything.

    This can get them into trouble.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      When I heard Eric Greitens speak at graduation, he mentioned two tests, both held in freezing water:

      1. tie a knot 50 feet down

      2. Swim 100 meters with your ankles bound and your hands tied behind your back.

      They also go days without sleeping, and he mentioned running 100 miles in the heat wearing heavy clothes and carrying a 40 lb. backpack. Oddly, he made it all sound easy. I left convinced I could make it through. :)

  • Tom

    I’ve read that the first guys to bounce out of SEAL training are the athletes and gym rats. All physical strength. The guys who make it are the ones who are tough as nails mentally
    ____________
    My best friend was a Seal.
    You are right about the mentally tough, but your average clarinet player is not going to make it physically.
    Bobby told me it was the athletes who were mentally tough who made it. The physically non tough were the first to be eliminated.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @tom:
    Let me ask you something:
    Would you be ok with getting into a relationship with a woman whom you knew for a fact had a sexual past that involved a net number of say, 50 partners, and including such acts as say, swapping/swinging, threesomes and gangbangs? Lets say that she had at least one young kid born of these sexual experiences. Would you be cool with that also?

    Please explain?

    O.

  • Tom

    – USATODAY.com article by sharon jayson entitled

    Men, women flip the script in gender expectation

  • Escoffier

    Obsidian,

    Tom is the knight-avenger of slutdom and the high priest of casual sex. So, no, he would have no problem. Moreover, he would be happy–eager!–to lecture you about your insecurities if you have a problem.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    With 15 years between puberty and avg. age at marriage, what is the consequence of spending most of that time single?

    I can only speak for myself and my friends, but this phenomenon of prolonged singlehood seems to be very common amongst college graduates. It might explain why they report lower N + very little dating/relationship experience compared to the general population. Hopefully, the positives outweigh the negatives, and they meet each other and settle down (compatibly) within 5 years of graduation. I’ve yet to see any evidence that having X number of prior relationships or partners *helps* in this process.

    You’ve mentioned the large virgin club (30%?) in college. Most of them lose their V-cards during those 4 years, but there’s probably an equally large club of students who come in with N = 1 (high school BF or GF). As these people largely avoid the hookup scene, there’s probably a large chunk of college graduates with minimal experience period. What are their characteristics and marital success rates? It’d be a good study group to focus on, but I’ve never seen any research that granular. I could guess, but I’d probably be agreeing with Wendy Shalit on that one : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      When I think about it, it’s pretty extraordinary that as many people muddle through with their self-discipline and integrity intact. More than 75% of college students had 0-1 previous sexual partners in the previous year. I’m not trying to get people from 0 to 10, or even from 0 to 1 if that’s not what they want. I just think it’s a very long time for people at the height of their fertility to go without mating!

  • Tom

    O
    ________
    Even I have my limits…..50 is on the high side for me, gangbangs would be tough to swallow. Threesomes would be ok.
    For me it is who she is now. within my own disqualifying limits. I dont lump all sexually active people into one catagory. Even in my judgement, not all promiscuous activity is created equally. Some people here seem to think a woman who has averaged one new partner a year is the same as a woman who gets laid by a different guy ever weekend.
    Some people here seem to think all the guys women have had casual sex with are assholes, jerks, players and cads. Sorry I dont believe that because I know it not to be fact. Also not all promiscuous people “settle” for a beta after fucking all the alphas they could find (really this is a friggin myth)
    Some guys disqualify a woman who has had casual sex of any kind, fine that is there option, Im not one of them. I found a wonderful woman who has had non relationship sex. We just click. It doesnt bother me. Everyday there are 400 million people havings ex, so sex is pretty common event. Really it is pretty common. But sex is a big issue for some.

    Obviously not all men think like I do, but there are a lot more that do than a lot of men here will admit.

  • Tasmin

    @Tom
    “I know it has been mentioned here before, but Abbott supplied a link to Match.com that suggested 35% of relationships started as a ONS. I find that stat interesting. To me that suggests that over one third of men had no problem with their prospective mate having a one nighter…”

    My theory on the Match.com ONS relationship is that there is a meaningful % of men who utilize the internet sites, not necessarily because they are too busy with work or don’t like to go to bars anymore, but because it is a very easy way to increase their exposure. The same concept that players have: its a #’s game. (And I am sure there is a similar population of women, though I can’t speak to that) And the process of internet dating greatly expands their reach because it is not in real time and there is little risk of cross-contamination because there is no actual venue. Some are players, but many are actually ‘looking’ for a relationship, but will gladly accept the spoils along the way.

    Add in tall, good looking , and decent writing skills and you will garner a significantly disproportionate amount of female attention. It becomes an extension of the 20% who get 80%. Of all of the men I have known to play in that space, the ‘average’ types tend to get very little traction and thus no more or less bites at the apple than in real life, but the bigger guys who really have no need for it have reported that at least for short periods of time that “its a field day”.

    And for a lot of women on those sites, they languish through painful dates, are ignored (no return winks or emails) from the men they find interesting/attractive, and tirelessly filter through the creeps – then a ‘catch’ shows up and gives them proper attention. He has a lot of momentum built up just from the fact that she is carrying-forward a sense of investment; subsequently his value goes up and there is acceleration of the normal timeline = there is a much higher probability of sex early on.

    I think this pent-up investment, keen awareness of how fleeting/slippery people are online, perceived scarcity of the ‘catch’ (due in no small part to the fact that the very structure of internet dating tends to foster overreaching – be it via laundry list of wants and/or how amazing we are on paper), and amount of pre-dating/qualifying in the process, that the online ‘culture’ allows for, if not outright encourages, getting to sex much faster than in ‘real life’.

    So perhaps there is a cultural overlay in the dotcom dating that enables men and women who might not typically have ONS – or first date sex to rationalize it, “we got to know each other online so well before our first date…” Combine this effect with a subset of men and women who are garnering the lions share of interaction – a subset that I propose are probably already accustomed to the more accelerated relationship between attention—>sex based on their experience outside of the dotcom (the population who actually get the most dates, sex, are probably ones most accustomed to relationship formation via ONS to begin with) and you have a much higher hit rate in terms of ONS/first date sex = relationship. Some of the 35% is probably made up of people who are behaving differently because of the online structure but I think most are from those select populations. Which is one of many reasons why I steer clear of all that online nonsense.

  • Escoffier

    “tall, good looking , and decent writing skills ”

    Hmmm, what about two out of three?

  • Ramble

    … gangbangs would be tough to swallow …

    You know what, if you are going to troll, you might as well drop lines like this.

  • Escoffier

    :-D

  • Tom

    ESCO
    Tom is the knight-avenger of slutdom and the high priest of casual sex. So, no, he would have no problem. Moreover, he would be happy–eager!–to lecture you about your insecurities if you have a problem.
    _____________
    Ok Mr. intellectual, if you really used your reading comprehension skills you would know what you said is not true. So either you are a liar of just stupid.

    You and I come from different backgrounds. I had success with women, you obviously did not.
    I have never had to chase women, I was usually approached. I was one of the lucky ones, it was nothing I did on purpose. So I understand your bitterness.
    I was in the college locker rooms. I did see a lot of assholes and cads who were my team mates. They played more than the sport of football. I got around, but never was I a player. I was always honest about being unattatched while in college with women.
    So my friend our points of view are totally different. Different worlds in fact.
    I see sex two ways. It is something that is enjoyed by couples and non couple alike. I do condon sleeping with multitudes of people. I didnt do that. I have my limits too. But I am also relaistic. I know unattactched people are going to have sex, on occation, with different people. No, not all people will do that, but a lot will.
    That is my point of view, I could care less if you agree or disagree. Our experiences have been very different, and that has effected our points of view. I am not right and you are not right. but I may be right for me, and you are most likely right for you.
    there are reasons I feel the way I do and there are reasons you feel the way you do.. I will let you geniuses figure out what those reasons are.

  • Ted D

    I have a difficult time taking any stats from Match.com or any dating site too seriously. Lets face it, just by participating in online dating, you are part of a self selected and smaller pool than the general populace. Just like we seem to have a huge amount of INTJs and other “rare” personality types here at HUS. Why? We are attracted to the format.

    I’m sure if Herb could gather stats from his circle, I bet we would find some very interesting numbers, but they would NOT be representative of everyone in the world at all.

  • Escoffier

    Tom,

    Not one of your best.

    Sincerely,

    Escoffier

  • Desiderius

    “This is one area where I think women need to show the white flag.”

    Hmm, maybe better the red cape.

  • Tasmin

    @Ramble
    “Apparently, one of the problems that instructors have in instilling in the SEALs is how to accurately determine which situations are too dangerous to enter and which are not.

    They choose the toughest guys and train them for the most difficult situations but then want them to be “smart” about what choices they make. The SEALs, understandably, think they can take on anything.

    This can get them into trouble.”

    Agree. It is an interesting concept – one that is also found in Police/Fire/Rescue populations in the US. There is a pervasive, kick-in-the-door to the rescue culture here that actually creates a much higher casualty rate among fire/rescue personnel than in comparable populations abroad.

    I know that in the groups like the seals they work in a lot more training in situational awareness and assessment for that very reason. And they screen for the men who demonstrate a greater level of intellectual capacity for these things because the role of those groups is more about being covert and strategically/situationally aggressive as opposed to brute force. The service puts a lot of work into these guys and is really focused on a high survival rate.

    All of the SF guys I have known have been more cerebral than emotional and more contemplative than expressive and have a sort of quiet intensity that can make you feel like they are just a bit more aware than the average guy. In fact, many of them appear quite average. Fit, sure, but these guys would not turn heads in a crowd. I am sure during training there is a lot of yelling and flexing, but in the field or in the rotation they are rarely the shirtless meaty guys who always want to wrestle someone. I do think that there is that kind of aggro in the beginning, but as they train, grow up, and interact with older operators, some of that invincibility is tempered. At least that is what I have seen with the men I know.

  • Tom

    I meant to say I DO NOT condon sleeping with multitudes of people.

  • Ramble

    All of the SF guys I have known have been more cerebral than emotional and more contemplative than expressive and have a sort of quiet intensity that can make you feel like they are just a bit more aware than the average guy.

    Yes.

    Also, Fighter Pilots, Secret Service, a few more.

    Basically, they are often Bad Ass Beta Males.

  • Escoffier

    One of the things that made me laugh in the documentary was, they do this thing called “hell week” which is actually five days, but non-stop activity, no sleep except short naps as rewards for beating other squads at various tasks. They asked the instructor how they settled on five days and he said “Well, we found that once the guys make it past a certain point they simply won’t give up no matter what. They will literally train themselves to death. So we have to stop them short of that and five days seems to work.”

  • Tom

    Ramble
    yeah I realised my swallow word would probably draw a little attention after I went back and read it.. It wasnt meant to be on purpose…

    LOL @ troll.
    If a troll has a different point of view and a different opinion then ok I`m a troll.But there are millions of guys like me who are of the same opinion, so if they came here, they`d be trolls too, I guess

  • Tasmin

    @Escoffier
    Two out of three probably works. Though it works best left-to-right: Tall, good looking, writing skills. Unfortunately, I’m right-to-left on that scale, which is one more reason why the internet forum doesn’t work for me.

  • Tom

    By the way the Match.com study was led by an independant firm. it was a university that did the study which included over 5100 people who answered the questions.
    My personal opinion of Match is it does work for some, but I think it really opens the door for people to be taken advantage of.

  • Abbot

    “we got to know each other online so well before our first date…” Combine this effect with a subset of men and women who are garnering the lions share of interaction – a subset that I propose are probably already accustomed to the more accelerated relationship between attention—>sex based on their experience outside of the dotcom (the population who actually get the most dates, sex, are probably ones most accustomed to relationship formation via ONS to begin with) and you have a much higher hit rate in terms of ONS/first date sex = relationship. Some of the 35% is probably made up of people who are behaving differently because of the online structure but I think most are from those select populations.”

    Then, assuming this bogus study has any merit whatsoever, its a Match.com subset of male members where 35% of them who have sex on the first “face to face” date with a known woman continue the relationship which was already in play before the sex. That in no way indicates that 35% of men in America are good to go with women who have one night stands, especially with other men. There may be a study out there that proves that, but this is not it.

  • Abbot

    “a university that did the study which included over 5100 people ”

    At a university. Nobody is going for marriage. Just sent that one up in smoke

  • Abbot

    “there are millions of guys like me who are of the same opinion”

    Well that news will come as a relief for all those po woes faced with lying or dealing with a self-limited supply of men willing to commit.

  • Abbot

    “unattactched people are going to have sex, on occation, with different people. No, not all people will do that, but a lot will.
    That is my point of view, I could care less if you agree or disagree”

    That is obvious and therefore odd indeed for anyone to disagree with that point of view

  • Abbot

    “men will not disqualify a woman based soley on their sexual past.”

    That is a fact that has been stated many times. But the fact that it is considred at all really angers promiscous women [and their advocates obviously] and scares them as well because nearly all men do.

  • Escoffier

    Abbot,

    Tom may be strictly correct that there are “millions of guys” who don’t care about a woman’s sluttiness. However, there are billions of guys in total, hence millions is still a small %.

    More to the point, the supply of such guys is probably smaller than the supply of high count women. And then factor in women’s preferences–are the guys who don’t care by and large the guys that most women want?–and the pool shrinks further.

    Tom’s purpose for posting here is always to legitimize and destigmative casual sex and promiscuity, espeically by females. He often makes dubious claims in support of that cause.

  • Abbot

    “And then factor in women’s preferences–are the guys who don’t care by and large the guys that most women want?–and the pool shrinks further.”

    aka as slut-taker man shortage. And it will grow larger as the number of promiscuous women increase and men get wiser.

    “Tom’s purpose for posting here is always to legitimize and destigmative casual sex and promiscuity, espeically by females.”

    Maybe that posting effort will pay off. But the ultimate goal of getting men to commit to promiscuous women is not connected to the legitimizing and destigmatizing the behavior of sexually prolific females

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I just think it’s a very long time for people at the height of their fertility to go without mating!”

    Which is exactly why I am a fan of LTRs even during college. It provides relationship experience and an outlet for sexual energy while doing very little damage in terms of long term prospects and MMP value. I think the problem is many man and women worry that they can “do better” once they are out of college and in the work force. But, I have to wonder, if they are with someone now that makes them happy, how much “better” do they have to do? I will never understand why many people always feel like there is a better deal to be had. If the person you are with meets your needs, and you both are happy together, who cares if you could have snagged a hotter guy/gal? What if that hotter mate really sucked as a person?

    Plus getting with someone early in college means that you both are just starting your career paths. Sure, it may turn out that after graduation you have to part ways, but if you don’t, then you both “got in” when the stock price was low, and your mate’s “market value” will likely increase over time. And, you have several years of groundwork already in place towards making it “official” and starting a family.

    I for the life of me just cannot wrap my head around how having a LTR during college is a bad thing. How exactly does it make life harder? I think it is just used as an excuse to act poorly in many cases. “I don’t have time for a relationship, but I can get drunk and hook up with random guys every weekend.” So, the time you spend getting drunk and banging randoms couldn’t be put into a relationship and sex with the same guy?

    Sure, seems legit. **rolls eyes**

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      “I don’t have time for a relationship, but I can get drunk and hook up with random guys every weekend.” So, the time you spend getting drunk and banging randoms couldn’t be put into a relationship and sex with the same guy?

      Just to clarify, I do believe the “no relationship” resolution is far more prevalent among guys than girls in college. Most girls would love nothing more than to have the responsibility of being in love.

  • Ramble

    Oddly, he made it all sound easy. I left convinced I could make it through.

    Well, if you did make it through, one of the rewards that a Navy SEAL gets is basically no time spent around hot, single girls.

  • Ramble

    But, I have to wonder, if they are with someone now that makes them happy, how much “better” do they have to do?

    But Ted, if they are thinking that they can do better, while in that relationship, exactly how happy are they?

    And, it is often better to replace the word “happy” with the word “satisfied”. It is only semantics, but it can improve the thinking on these subjects.

    I will never understand why many people always feel like there is a better deal to be had.

    Ted, I am sure that you are familiar with the phrase, “The grass is always greener”, meaning that we always think that someone or someplace has it better and so we are never satisfied. Which is, I believe, what you were communicating.

    But, it’s not true.

    There are plenty of people who think their grass is really fucking green and they are not looking to change much at all. Sometimes people are genuinely unsatisfied with what they have, even if they have “more” than others. And, sometimes people are satisfied with what they have, even though they may have “less” than others.

  • Tom

    abbott and esco
    “men will not disqualify a woman based soley on their sexual past.”

    That is a fact that has been stated many times. But the fact that it is considred at all really angers promiscous women [and their advocates obviously] and scares them as well because nearly ALL MEN do.

    Tom may be strictly correct that there are “millions of guys” who don’t care about a woman’s sluttiness. However, there are billions of guys in total, hence millions is still a small %.

    Rutgers study says THIRTY FIVE % of ONS`s end up as a relationship…. So I think it is fairly common that a lot of men just dont care the way you dudes keep suggesting.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Like I said, this is round two for both of us. We aren’t making a big deal of it. In fact, we are going to Vegas (I know, tacky. But I’ve never been so I see it as a great reason to go!) Plus we’ve been living together two years, it has just taken this long to get all the legal crap resolved and plan something.

    Hey I Vegas I wanted my second wedding here to be at Las Vegas but hubby wanted to make one with his friends and family we probably will end up renewing one of our vows there I want a Star Trek wedding at some point although hubby likes the idea of Elvis marrying us…Elvis dressed as Kirk? Pondering pondering…

    To a much lesser extent, I think that happens with disappointment and heartbreak in relationships as well.

    Yeah I think the level of expectations for one of the couple matches the level of disappointment and the level of risk taking. I know a couple of women that though the world of their men, lead by they always presented the best face that were absolutely devastated when they showed their true colors and swore off relationships. I think the world of my husband if he were to cheat on me I’ll probably join a convent, if I couldn’t make it work with the best man I had ever know how can I even think about trying with someone else? YMMV

    Well that’s the crux of the matter. With 15 years between puberty and avg. age at marriage, what is the consequence of spending most of that time single? What can we realistically expect of people in terms of caution, self-discipline, etc. vs. their desire and need to experience emotional and physical connection with members of the opposite sex?

    As much as I support early marriage I think there is also a sweet spot. I often think we need maturity tests people shouldn’t marry before they are mature enough to understand commitment, loyalty, responsibility and love but they shouldn’t marry either after they had lost all the joys of discovery and life, their fertility starts decaying and think of commitment as some sort of price to pay for a different level on society and as a sacrificing their single lifestyle. Where the sweet spot for everyone is I guess it depends on many things but I think society should give people the tools to finding out and doesn’t, YMMV.

    Which is one of many reasons why I steer clear of all that online nonsense.

    I had tried every dating site but POF and Chemistry.com (they came out after I got married) and I can say that my best advice is to avoid the free ones, people that paid even the tiniest amount is the people that is more likely to take searching for a mate seriously, the rest was like 80% interested on seeing my boobs on camera before they could even spell my name, there is minority that is taking it seriously but again an adult woman/man that doesn’t take a bit of a risk is probably still not ready for a big step if that is what you are looking for, YMMV.

  • Kurt

    Take anything Tom writes with a grain of salt. He doesn’t have the typical standards of most men. He once posted a picture of a woman he claimed to be dating, and she was not exactly what most men would consider to be the most desirable woman.

  • Ramble

    Hey I Vegas I wanted my second wedding here to be at Las Vegas but hubby wanted to make one with his friends and family we probably will end up renewing one of our vows there I want a Star Trek wedding at some point although hubby likes the idea of Elvis marrying us…Elvis dressed as Kirk?

    There is, currently, a hotel in Vegas with a Star Trek theme (Hilton? I don’t remember). Have Elvis marry you in that hotel.

  • Ramble

    Ana, never mind, The Star Trek experience was closed a few years back.

    If it is any consolation, it sucked.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “But Ted, if they are thinking that they can do better, while in that relationship, exactly how happy are they?”

    Touche’!

    Yeah I know “the grass is always greener” mentality is exactly what I’m describing. I just get the feeling that the saying is truer today than in our history for many people. Not that the grass IS greener, but that they all seem to believe it is. I just don’t get why. I think perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many younger people don’t know how to make THEMSELVES happy, which then means they are less happy when coupled. I never thought deeply about it, but it probably ties in with the “everyone gets a trophy for showing up” mindset.

    What people generally fail to realize is: the grass on the other side of the fence is probably greener because it’s on top of a septic tank.

  • Ramble

    Ted, what I am saying is that many people DON’T have that mindset. That, at some point, quite a few people do get to some pretty green grass, and they DO appreciate it.

    I will give you an example. A few years back the NASCAR driver Jimmy Johnson was interviewed (this was after his 3rd championship, I believe). At one point the interviewer asked him, “if you weren’t a NASCAR driver, what would you do?”. He paused for a second and thought about it and finally said, “Nothing. This is it. I am doing exactly what I want to do. This is my dream come true.”

    I understand that a wealthy person like that is an outlier, but his mindset is not. Lots of people recognize when they have it good, though, I am fully aware that many are also idiots.

    So, the point I am making is that many people are very, very happy with what they have and are scared that they might lose it. That is the opposite of, “You don’t know what you got till it’s gone. Paved Paradise, put up a parking lot.”

    Some of those kids in college who are thinking about that better mate really are unsatisfied with what they have and are not completely delusional.

    Whether or not they are able to successfully improve things is a whole ‘nother debate.

  • Tom

    Abott
    “a university that did the study which included over 5100 people ”

    At a university. Nobody is going for marriage. Just sent that one up in smoke

    Well well, the study was BY a university, not at a university. the ages of respondents were from 21 to 65
    So there goes YOUR reasoning…

  • Tasmin

    @Abbot
    “That in no way indicates that 35% of men in America are good to go with women who have one night stands, especially with other men. There may be a study out there that proves that, but this is not it.”

    Agree.
    Though I don’t think that the % of men who are “good to go with [it]” is 5% either. It is probably closer to some % of the men who they themselves have participated in this. And I think it is false – or at least selective extrapolation to conclude that the men who have not had histories of ONS and the like who end up dating and marrying women of this population means that they are “ok” with it. And as it has been pointed out, “dating” within this pool is far different than marrying. And marrying is far different than being happily married.

    Many men accept these pasts because they believe that in this day and age it is unavoidable and because they have had it pounded into them that they should be ok with it, that it is their problem, their self-esteem issues, if they are not. Some men can swallow this and hold the resentment at bay, unfortunately for others it shows up in all kinds of unhealthy ways for both of them.

    One more reason that like should find like. For women with casual, experimental, high N pasts, they would probably do best to focus on finding men with similar backgrounds – even if they NOW feel differently about those past actions. [That is where I find the most hurt, pain, struggling on for both women - the reformed or learned-through-experience women and her desires to hit 'reset' via a non-promiscuous man]

    Sure they will run into those men with the double-standard, but that is one of the (many) potential costs of those behaviors. And we’ve gone round and round about that standard and those costs. I don’t agree with the men who hold those views, though I understand why they do. But I think it is far easier for a woman to unwind the double-standard than it is for her to unwind all of the other shit that comes up when she goes down the path with a chaste man.

  • Ted D

    “Take anything Tom writes with a grain of salt. He doesn’t have the typical standards of most men. He once posted a picture of a woman he claimed to be dating, and she was not exactly what most men would consider to be the most desirable woman.”

    Couple of things here.
    1. Remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I find my SO to be supremely attractive, but I know damn well that by normal standards she is considered fat. I like curvy women to start with, and if I have to swing between a bit too skinny and a little over weight, I choose “more cushion for the pushin” every time. I also think she has a smoking ass. :D
    2. No matter how much I may disagree with Tom (or anyone else) he likes what he likes, and will act accordingly. If female Russian weight lifting women float his boat, then I say more power to him.
    3. I know that emotions run high sometimes and the desire for personal jabs can be strong, but I really think it is a low blow to pick on someone’s choice for dating, regardless of your own tastes. Like I said above, I know my SO isn’t most men’s cup of tea. That’s fine, since it means less competition for me! But, more to the point, I would be downright PISSED if anyone here talked smack about her. *I* am the one posting and debating/arguing. Feel free to ding my armor all you want, but leave my SO/children/family out of it.

    Not a dig at anyone. I just don’t want to see things heading down this path.

  • Escoffier

    Among other problems with widespread acceptance of LTRs, college boyfriends and the like: it’s one more cause of delayed marriage and higher counts. Once you relax the standard against pre-marital sex, people won’t get married as early because the internal pressure will be considerably reduced.

    Susan and I differ on this. I agree with her that LTRs are preferably by no small margin to hook-ups and ONSs. But I don’t see them as good simply.

  • Tom

    As reported in USA TODAY

    Findings show men are more interested in love, marriage and children than their peers in earlier times; women want more independence in their relationships than their mothers did; and hooking up and one-night stands aren’t necessarily meaningless sexual encounters.

    LOVE CHAT:Talk dating and more starting at 12:30 ET
    The researchers say the nationally representative survey of more than 5,000 men and women is the largest and most comprehensive study of single adults to date. And it reveals a sea change in gender expectations.

    “Men are now expressing some traditionally female attitudes, while women are adopting some of those long attributed to men,” says biological anthropologist Helen Fisher, who helped develop the survey with social historian Stephanie Coontz and Justin Garcia, a doctoral fellow with the Institute for Evolutionary Studies at Binghamton (N.Y.) University.

    “For me, as a historian, it’s just amazing confirmation about what has changed in the last 40 years,” says Coontz, professor of history and family studies at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash.

    The online survey of singles ages 21 and older was conducted by market research firm MarketTools for the Dallas-based dating website Match.com. Fisher, a research professor at Rutgers University, is a scientific adviser for a division of Match.com.

    Data show men are quicker to fall in love and more likely than women to want children: 54% of men say they have experienced love at first sight, compared with 44% of women; among singles without children under 18, more men (24%) than women (15%) say they want children.

    And, across every age group, women want more independence than men in their relationships: 77% of women say having their personal space is “very important,” vs. 58% for men; 78% of women say the same about having their own interests and hobbies (vs. 64% for men). And 35% of women (vs. 23% of men) say regular nights out with the guys/girls are important.

    Roles overlap
    Kathleen Gerson, a sociology professor at New York University who did not participate in the survey, says the attitudes echo her findings on 18- to 32-year-olds born in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, which reflect “a blurring of gender boundaries.”

    “Men do feel more empowered to acknowledge their desires for commitment and their desires for connection,” says Gerson, author of The Unfinished Revolution: Coming of Age in a New Era of Gender, Work, and Family, out in March.

    “Men and women are looking for similar assets and are not judging a potential partner on the basis of gender-related traits — that a woman is looking for a paycheck object or a man is looking for a sex object,” she says. “They’re both looking for the whole package, more so than in the past.”

    Sara Barrett, 34, of Washington, says she and her women friends — both single and married — do talk about maintaining their individuality to make sure they don’t get “totally lost in their relationships.”

    “The independence is really, really important to us,” she says, noting that the “girls’ night out” for a handful of friends is usually once a week.

    Barrett, a reading and math teacher, says she mentions the need for “space” from the get-go in a new relationship.

    “With some friends, it’s been an issue. They dated a guy who was clingier than they wanted.”

    June Ashley, 57, a single in Fort Worth, agrees that men appear more focused on committed relationships.

    “I think men are more needy for a relationship than women,” says Ashley, who married at 17 and was divorced after nine years. She remarried and was widowed after seven years.

    Sherri Langburt of New York, founder of SingleEdition.com, a lifestyle website for singles, says she has noticed the changes in what men and women ask the site’s panel of experts.

    “Men are writing us more about the emotional relationships than women. Women are writing us about the one-night stands,” Langburt says. “Women are (asking) if it’s OK — ‘Can I have a one-night stand?’ Men are writing, ‘I’m single and I’m lonely and want to find love and can’t admit it to anyone.’ ”

    Love at first sight
    Mary Catenacci, 24, of South Pasadena, Calif., who works in fundraising for a non-profit group, says men she has dated have confided to her that they’ve experienced love at first sight.

    Women, she says, aren’t as eager to admit strong feelings as they might have been years ago. “Girls are little bit more cautious because they are more educated and have more opportunities. They’re a bit more discerning.”

    Men are more visual than women, which could explain the “love at first sight” disparity, say both Fisher and Langburt.

    The 5,199 singles surveyed include the never married (56%), divorced (31%), widowed (10%) and separated (3%) who were not in a serious relationship at the time. Of the total, 5% were gay or lesbian; 4% were bisexual; and 0.1% identified as transgender.

    Among other findings:

    •Singles can fall in love with a friend. Seventy-one percent fell in love with someone they did not initially find attractive after having great conversations or shared interests or both; 35% fell in love with someone even though they felt no sparks initially.

    •Love can last. Twenty-nine percent report remaining intensely in love with their last partner two to five years; 8% for six to 10 years; and 18% for more than 10 years.

    •Hookups and one-night stands can turn into partnerships. Thirty-five percent have had a one-night stand that turned into a long-term relationship.

    Garcia, an evolutionary biologist, says young people “want romantic love” and are finding it “through sexual encounters.”

    “They are finding relationships through hookups,” he says, noting that more than half of the young men and women in his research say they hooked up to start a romantic relationship.

    The survey did not define a “hookup” for participants, but Garcia’s research calls it “a sexual encounter between people who are not dating or in a relationship, and where a more traditional romantic relationship is not an explicit condition of the encounter.”

    With singles making up about one-third of the U.S. population — about 105 million singles ages 18 and older, according to the most recent Census data — there is great interest in this group.

    Pat Palmieri, an adjunct assistant professor of American history at Queensborough Community College, part of the City University of New York, is writing a book, Single in America: A History, 1870 to the Present.

    She traces how being single went from being considered a normal state in those early days to being considered odd from the 1920s until after the 1960s. Still, the idea of being a “spinster” or “old maid” carried a stigma until recently. Now, she says, U.S culture is valuing “singleness.”

    Palmieri’s research also has found this focus on individuality, which she calls a “dramatic shift from the idea of being blended with your husband and taking his identity and bank account.”

    “It may be because marriage is more fragile that people may want to maintain their separateness, even within marriage,” she says.

    But some behaviors of these singles don’t reflect changing beliefs, especially among women, the study shows. Although 87% of women surveyed said they would pick up the tab on a date under some circumstances, 89% have not asked someone out, and almost half (48%) typically wait for the other person to call after a first date.

    Erik Larsen, 27, of Washington, says a woman picking up the check “is perfectly acceptable” — when you’re dating, he says, “it’s a give-and-take sort of thing.”

    But he adds that being asked out by a woman was unexpected.

    “The first time, I was surprised,” he says. “Then it’s happened a few other times since. In a way, it’s kind of refreshing. They got a little bit ahead of where I was, but it’s OK.”

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “Ted, what I am saying is that many people DON’T have that mindset. That, at some point, quite a few people do get to some pretty green grass, and they DO appreciate it.”

    Oh I agree, but not so much when young people are in college. I think over time people learn to avoid the septic tanks, but I think much of why people avoid LTRs in college is exactly this: they believe they can and will do better after they graduate. To me that seems silly. Sure, they may do better. But if they are happy, who cares? If they are not? Well, part ways and move on.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If it is any consolation, it sucked.

    Yes I knew it was closed I was mostly going for the theme personally like getting myself and him a costume and ask our friends to try and dress like that. So it sucked? That is unfortunate but I guess is better that they closed it if it was this bad.

  • Ramble

    But if they are happy, who cares?

    And here we go again. If they are looking, exactly how satisfied are they? And, if they are not breaking up, is it possible that they recognize that, “while this is not great, it is not bad. So, I am going to ride this out for a while and see what happens.”?

  • Cooper

    Re: “the grass is always greener”

    I think it take a certain level of maturity to be content with what you have, and not ever-desire something else. (or what others have – even it’s not better just different)

    I learned this when I was very young. (I can still remember when I did.)
    It was way back when kids would get toys – instances where ‘everyone got one’. And everyone always wanted to trade. Kids would want that different color, or whatever. But everytime I’d trade, I ‘d realize that it was more about it ‘being the one someone else had’ than wanting the particular item itself. Eventually I’d be unsatisfied with having successfully negotiated for something I thought I so very much wanted more – even to the point where I’d wonder “maybe I was meant to have the original one I had been given.”

    Now I know that enjoying what you have is time much better spent than trying so hard to get the one you may not even truly want any more necessarily.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Eventually I’d be unsatisfied with having successfully negotiated for something I thought I so very much wanted more — even to the point where I’d wonder “maybe I was meant to have the original one I had been given.”

      You were a very wise child. I think there are many adults who never learn that lesson.

  • Ted D

    Tom – interesting article. To me it just means our collective morals are further slipping into the abyss. Sure more men are OK with a woman that has a high N, because it is becoming harder and harder to find ones that don’t. Either they suck it up and deal, or they go without. That really doesn’t make me feel much better as my son gets older and closer to pairing off to start a family though…

  • Ramble

    At the time, it was simply a low-end casino with Star Trek stuff in it. And, it was right next to the show, “Menopause: The Musical”. So, they were trying to grab that awesome combo of male geeks and older spinsters. That place was just magical.

  • Tom

    “That in no way indicates that 35% of men in America are good to go with women who have one night stands, especially with other men. There may be a study out there that proves that, but this is not it.”
    ___________
    USA TODAY says,”The researchers say the nationally representative survey of more than 5,000 men and women is the largest and most comprehensive study of single adults to date.
    So…. 35% of men in the largest most comprehensive study done to date have no problem entering into a relationship with a woman who he thought was just going to be a ONS. But thats OK they should have just asked ESCO or abbott for their opinion, because they speak for all men.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “If they are looking, exactly how satisfied are they?”

    True, but they can’t “be looking” if they never got into a LTR in the first place. If they are in unhappy LTR, then “looking” isn’t their primary problem. As someone that spent years in a miserable marriage, I can tell you the last thing on my mind was finding another woman to be with. If you are miserable, either fix it or get out.

    And yes, I realize that there is a good chance that college “sweethearts” will outgrow each other and find that they need different things in a mate. Again, so what? Does that mean the time they were together was meaningless? Was it a waste? What is the fear that I am missing? Good grief even in my worst beta mindset I’ve never been afraid of a LTR failing. Am I unusual in this respect?

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “Now I know that enjoying what you have is time much better spent than trying so hard to get the one you may not even truly want any more necessarily.”

    For better or for worse, you and I think a LOT alike. If you brain works the way mine does, please accept my condolences. :P

  • Tom

    Ted I understand about kids and I agree….. Isnt there a lot of studies that suggest that most people in gerneral do not have a high number, and only a really small percentage are of high numbers. I dont think promiscuity is as widesperad as some people think. By the numbers it is no different than 30 years ago.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That really doesn’t make me feel much better as my son gets older and closer to pairing off to start a family though…

    Specially since it looks like they are preemptively preparing for a break up or divorce. I always though that marriage is one of those things you cannot do it halfway you whether plan and think of it as a lifetime deal or anything will start to pile up to destroy it, divorce starts in the mind not with the signing of the papers, YMMV.

  • Ramble

    they can’t “be looking” if they never got into a LTR in the first place.

    Huh? The majority of people who are not in LTR are looking.

    As someone that spent years in a miserable marriage, I can tell you the last thing on my mind was finding another woman to be with.

    Yes, bu you were married, and not dating (and I presume, had children as well, which changes things)

    If you are miserable, either fix it or get out.

    Of course, as I always do with you Ted, made sure to point out that this hypothetical person was NOT miserable. I could see the hammer in your hand and your eyes just looking for that nail.

    Again,

    while this is not great, it is not bad. So, I am going to ride this out for a while and see what happens.

  • Ted D

    Tom – “Isnt there a lot of studies that suggest that most people in gerneral do not have a high number”

    Yeah, there is a bit of “squeaky wheel” in this. That is, the most vocal people in regards to sex also happen to be the most promiscuous much of the time. But I can see a change in the families I know that were raised like me in a pretty conservative household. And the truth is, the attitudes are changing, and not for the better IMHO. I also note that in most cases, it isn’t just about changing attitudes towards sex, but a general abandonment of those traditional conservative values.

    I am in an unusual position. Although I left the “Church” years ago, I kept the basic teachings and continued to live my life by them. I’m not truly secular, but I’m not practicing a “faith” anywhere either. So I find myself kinda stuck between two worlds. I don’t like the historical oppression the Church used to “keep us in line”, but I also don’t see the complete removal of all restrictions as a positive move for society either. And, being a security kinda guy, if I have to choose between too much restriction and too little, I think too much is the safer bet.

    And please know that sexuality isn’t the only area I have issues. I have similar discussions with topics like the economy, judicial system, public assistance… And in most cases, I get no love from either side of the fence. To the true bible thumpers I’m a heathen, and to the truly liberal I’m a bible thumper. :-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      And please know that sexuality isn’t the only area I have issues.

      I fell off my chair reading this.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “I could see the hammer in your hand and your eyes just looking for that nail.”

    If you keep this up, I’m going to get a hammer and nail tattoo somewhere. As much as I know it was a bit of a dig at me, I like the metaphor.

  • Ted D

    Anacanoa – “Specially since it looks like they are preemptively preparing for a break up or divorce. ”

    that was my exact though when the article discussed how women “want to keep their independence” and how important that is to them. Sure, it makes walking away from your commitments much easier if you are already half-way out the door from the get go.

  • Cooper

    Ted D – “If you brain works the way mine does, please accept my condolences”

    I’ve already recognized this – and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, when I say that it worries me. It worries to me to know that things may not necessarily get better – that there isn’t a certain age that our way of thinking becomes a magnificent virtue.

    “Good grief even in my worst beta mindset I’ve never been afraid of a LTR failing. Am I unusual in this respect?”
    I, too, see things this way. If a LTR isn’t working, I’d say “blame the players, not the game.” (as in it’s the members of relationship for not making it work, and not necessarily how suitable may or may not be)
    Is this similar to what you were saying?

  • Herb

    @Susan

    There are good reasons for women to get an education, not the least of which is that most families need two incomes.

    Only if they’ve truly bought into consumer culture. I know plenty of people who survive on just the husband’s income with kids.

    It requires being a grown-up and making mature choices.

    Frequent the Dave Ramsey boards and you’ll see plenty of people who make it work, while actively paying off debt. They just make very different choices than the rest of us.

    @Ramble

    As far as I can tell, the main reason why couples need 2 incomes is because of all the other couples with 2 incomes.

    Keeping up with the Jones fails the “making mature choices” test.

    @Ana

    I won’t congratulate you yet because I don’t want to jinx it, but I’m eagerly waiting to be able to do so.

    Could be a long wait but we’ll see. Had a really happy sign this morning for me but it probably won’t translate well here.

    @Tom

    Bobby told me it was the athletes who were mentally tough who made it. The physically non tough were the first to be eliminated.

    What makes that statement even more impressive is that is relatively physically non-tough. Most high school letterman types cannot pass the SEAL entry test when they try in bootcamp. In fact, most people who try in bootcamp period (you were allowed to when I was a boot…not sure if you still can) fail.

    Even the entrance test is as much mental as physical, though. The guys I knew who pasted it said you had to know how to pace yourself and rest. Too gung ho and you’ll tire yourself out. According to navy.mil “The test consists of a 500-yard swim using the side-stroke or breast-stroke, two minutes of push-ups, two minutes of sit-ups, as many pull-ups as the participant can do and a 1.5-mile run.” You have a specific amount of time for each and a specific amount of rest between each. They all said knowing how to use that time was the secret.

    @Ted D

    I’m sure if Herb could gather stats from his circle, I bet we would find some very interesting numbers, but they would NOT be representative of everyone in the world at all.

    I could but without doing so I’m pretty sure the number wouldn’t be 35% and probably much lower than 10%. Even if we include all BDSM activities as sex (a controversal statement in and of itself) it wouldn’t go higher. Even our casual sex tends to be planned. People will met and negotiate. At larger events people might meet and plan same day sex, but they went to the event hoping to hookup and everyone

  • Herb

    oops, got cut off:

    At larger events people might meet and plan same day sex, but they went to the event hoping to hookup and everyone is on the same page. The same applies to bars where cruising (usually with flagging) is going on.

    But most of us meet and negotiate and get to know for safety reasons. People who play casually generally play in public exclusively (bars, clubs, events) or learn to do so (or quit being casual) the hard way.

    Swingers, however, are probably a different story.

  • Jason773

    Even I have my limits…..50 is on the high side for me, gangbangs would be tough to swallow. Threesomes would be ok.
    For me it is who she is now. within my own disqualifying limits. I dont lump all sexually active people into one catagory. Even in my judgement, not all promiscuous activity is created equally. Some people here seem to think a woman who has averaged one new partner a year is the same as a woman who gets laid by a different guy ever weekend.
    Some people here seem to think all the guys women have had casual sex with are assholes, jerks, players and cads. Sorry I dont believe that because I know it not to be fact. Also not all promiscuous people “settle” for a beta after fucking all the alphas they could find (really this is a friggin myth)
    Some guys disqualify a woman who has had casual sex of any kind, fine that is there option, Im not one of them. I found a wonderful woman who has had non relationship sex. We just click. It doesnt bother me. Everyday there are 400 million people havings ex, so sex is pretty common event. Really it is pretty common. But sex is a big issue for some.

    On the high side but might be acceptable? LOL. Seriously, what world do you live in? I don’t know one single guy in my social cirlce (generally consisting of white and asian MC-UMC professionals) who would even pretend to want to lock this down. Not all of them have the exact same views as me, but they seem to instinctively know something is wrong with a girl who would be this promiscuous. I would even say that ‘instinctive feeling’ starts to surface when at girl hits 10+ partners, as a majority of the guys I know have N<10 themselves.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “I’ve already recognized this – and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, when I say that it worries me. ”

    Pfft. I’m not going to lie and say it gets easier/better or whatever, but there are advantages to having a brain that works in unusual ways. Despite all the frustration and anger I put out into the either, I’m actually a pretty happy guy. Could things be better? Always. But they could also always be worse. And, as someone that doesn’t like cutting grass, I have NO desire to find something greener.

    “that there isn’t a certain age that our way of thinking becomes a magnificent virtue.”

    I don’t know that any “way of thinking” becomes a virtue. It mostly comes down to figuring out how to use it to your advantage. Besides, in the end YOU are the one that decides what is and is not a virtue in your own life. Who cares if no one agrees with you? Like I said about passing up chances for casual sex throughout my life: I may have done it for the wrong reasons, but it doesn’t change my reasons at all. It wasn’t something I wanted for myself. Does it suck that no one else appreciates it? Hell yeah! But, in the end, it made me who I am today. My mistake was expecting credit from others for something that was a totally personal choice. Now, I will also say that I believe everyone should make the same choice I did, but no one cares what I think.

    I don’t remember for sure, but I think you are a younger guy. (20′s maybe?) I’m just realizing a lot of this now and I’m turning 42 next month. If nothing else, you have the advantage of knowing NOW before you are married with kids and a mortgage. Like I said in the forums, simply knowing all this puts you in a MUCH better position than the average guy, and that is without changing a thing. Don’t get so down man. You will become your own worst enemy. And I can tell you, if your brain really does work like mine, you will be an effective enemy as well. Don’t go down that path.

    “I, too, see things this way. If a LTR isn’t working, I’d say “blame the players, not the game.” (as in it’s the members of relationship for not making it work, and not necessarily how suitable may or may not be)
    Is this similar to what you were saying?”

    Basically yes. To me, if marriage and a family is ever in your future, it simply makes sense to start working your way there now. Even if now is “dating” in high school. NO, I don’t mean “dating” as in “play house and have sex under the safety of a LTR”, I mean start looking for the types of people you are attracted to and spend time in relationship with them. Will that include sex? All of mine did. I can’t understand why so many people feel like they should “play while they can” and THEN start taking that search seriously. Does anyone become an Olympic medal winner by picking up a new sport a year before the contest? Nope. They spend their entire lives dedicated to it JUST for the chance to be accepted. Why should finding a mate be any different?

  • Tom

    Kunt
    Take anything Tom writes with a grain of salt. He doesn’t have the typical standards of most men. He once posted a picture of a woman he claimed to be dating,
    ________
    Now that is a damn lie, I NEVER posted her pic here.

    You are right, though According to the largest and most comprehensive study of singles to date, I`m only in the 35 percentile., so 65% oppose my standards.

  • Jason773

    Tasmin,

    Add in tall, good looking , and decent writing skills and you will garner a significantly disproportionate amount of female attention. It becomes an extension of the 20% who get 80%. Of all of the men I have known to play in that space, the ‘average’ types tend to get very little traction and thus no more or less bites at the apple than in real life, but the bigger guys who really have no need for it have reported that at least for short periods of time that “its a field day”.

    I haven’t done the online dating thing, but my best friend from home has (match.com) and this has been his exact experience as a tall, good looking, intelligent male. He was literally swimming in it. He met four girls off of the site within one month and form those four he had two first date lays, one second date lay, and one third date lay (mainly due to logistics) with the girl he is currently seeing. So he went 4/4 with practically zero effort on his part. Just another manifestation of the 80/20 rule.

  • Ted D

    “I may have done it for the wrong reasons, but it doesn’t change my reasons at all.”

    DOH I wish there was an edit button. This should have read:

    I may have done it for the wrong reasons, but it doesn’t change my outcome at all.

  • Ramble

    Keeping up with the Jones fails the “making mature choices” test.

    Most are not needing 2 incomes to keep up with the Jones (and their new luxury car), but to keep up with the increased mortgage payments.

  • Travis

    Tom, just out of curiosity, why do you seem to feel the need to convince all of us that we should accept women with promiscuous pasts as long term prospects? I’m sorry, but most of the guys on this board (not to mention just about any guy I’ve ever discussed the subject with) simply don’t feel that way, and nothing you say is going to change that.
    Why does that bother you? I can understand why it might be unsettling for a promiscuous woman to hear that, but I would think it would be great news for a guy who doesn’t have a problem with promiscuous women. Less competition. A non-discriminating guy like yourself should be able to have his pick. Enjoy it. And quit wasting your time trying to convince the rest of us that we should all find the same qualities attractive as you do. It ain’t gonna’ happen…
    By the way, congratulations. That USA Today article made me throw up in my mouth a little bit…

  • Tom

    Ted, I admire you and your standards.
    I raised my daughter with family values and church morals.
    My sexually active times were over 30 years ago in college, and that all changed when I fell in love. After I lost my wife I entered the single scene again. I didnt go buck wild, but I “saw” a few women.
    Now im in love again and wouldnt even think of cheating.

  • Ted D

    Tasmin – “By the way, congratulations. That USA Today article made me throw up in my mouth a little bit…”

    This made me LOL for real. And again my co-workers worry about my sanity. I tend to take USA Today with a shaker of salt. Actually, I take all major “news” outlets with LOTS of salt. And sometimes a shower…

    So, you and I both found it nauseating. Cooper?

  • Tom

    Travis
    Tom, just out of curiosity, why do you seem to feel the need to convince all of us that we should accept women with promiscuous pasts as long term prospects?
    ___________
    geesus does everyone around here have a reading comprehension problem?
    Tom @ 504….Some guys disqualify a woman who has had casual sex of any kind, fine that is there option, Im not one of them.

    Tom @ 509..That is my point of view, I could care less if you agree or disagree. Our experiences have been very different, and that has effected our points of view. I am not right and you are not right. but I may be right for me, and you are most likely right for you.
    So..travis are you just a sheeple? Follow the herd?

    There are a ton of other quotes where I say it is ok to think what you want. I offer my opinion BECAUSE it is different. but I am in the minority, but that minority has grown to 35% which I am sure shocks the guys here

  • Ted D

    Tom – Thanks, but truthfully in today’s Western world having a life outlook based on traditional morality is very much a hindrance. Especially if you don’t have that outlook because you are a member of some group that shares it. Not only does it make me an outlier in most things, but it adds to my already anti-social behavior. You see, because I’m such a stuffy old grouch, I don’t see most people in a very favorable light. I try not to be a condescending ass too often, but I can understand why bible thumpers always seem to be such pretentious pricks. It can’t be helped when you truly believe your morals ARE better than everyone else’s. And as much as I was taught growing up that it isn’t my place to judge, I can only close my eyes and plug my ears to avoid seeing the world around me. I don’t allow my opinions to change how I interact with people, but it would be a total lie to say I don’t sometimes have to intentionally filter my behaviors toward people to accomplish that.

    And just to be clear, I’ve never said that all promiscuous people will cheat. Or want to cheat but don’t. Or that cheating and promiscuity are always tied together.

  • Tom

    Travis
    A non-discriminating guy like yourself should be able to have his pick. Enjoy it.
    _____________
    But I am discriminating, but maybe not AS discriminating as some others. I have my limits as to what I deem acceptable.

  • Tom

    Ted, you are a good man.
    I see the moral fiber changing around us, and probaly not for the better. Humans make mistakes, and the smart ones learn from their mistakes. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom to understand they need to change. I dont judge as to right or wrong. I look at reasons and try to understand.
    Two things my mother taught me
    Some people handle their lifes mistakes better than others…
    Our bodies are our space suits, and no one got to pick out which space suit their spirit was going to live in. If everyone thought that way,racism would be non-existant.

  • Tom

    Jason
    I didnt communicate well. I meant that 50 is too high for me. Gangbangs are out,just for the record. In the twenties is ok for a woman in her 40`s, but not in her 20`s for me.
    Really the number is not as important as how it was arrived upon.
    an example you used was ten……A girl could have had only her BF of 5 years, broke up and then had a gangbang with nine guys..Is that still ok because she was still only at 10?..Ofcourse not.
    Again I do not view all promiscuity as the same. A woman who has 10 past partners, over a ten or 15 year time frame is not the same as a woman who did the lacross team in a couple drunkin nights.
    Total different mindset and total different motivations.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    The reason why the 35% doesn’t matter is because the guys who HAD the ONS are moving into a relationship. That’s quite different than a girl who had a series of ONS with other guys, then decides to play the “innocent traditional courtship” routine with you.

    Having a relationship doesn’t mean jack squat anyways. Serial monogamy is meaningless because it doesn’t indicate any serious commitment. I can totally be a “boyfriend” to a total slut for quite some time yet not intend to marry her or offer any other serious commitment: she’s just some girl I am dating.

    Though I agree with you, a promiscous past shouldn’t necessarily preclude commitment. What I will NOT indulge, however, is the idea that it doesn’t matter and that virgins and N=10 are identical. The girl that’s N=10 is going to have to work a LOT harder to prove her worth and her affection to me, and I am going to be much more demanding.

    Much like girls can, in general, get attracted to certain “alpha” qualities much more easily than certain beta qualities and therefore different guys can get girls easier, guys can attach and become committed to different girls easier. Girls with a high N simply do not hit my commitment triggers as easily, much like I do not hit the attraction triggers in them as easily as other guys have. If the girl wants to throw a fit about this, well, that’s on her, because she is the one who made the choice to make herself LESS attractive.

  • Jason773

    Tom,

    That makes more sense then. I’m certainly not in the ‘any woman who isn’t a virgin is a slut’ camp either, but numbers still do matter. While I agree that there is some validity in the way a girl gets there, my social cirlce and I are looking for girls in their low to mid 20s, thus 10+ does start raising a red flag for most of the guys.

  • Abbot

    “ONS`s end up as a relationship…. So I think it is fairly common that a lot of men just dont care ”

    Of course it happens. In some instances why would the man care if it is HIS dick utilized in this unclearly-defined so-called ONS? There is NO meaning or inference or conclusion to be drawn from such circumstances that can flow through to a claim such as:

    “that minority has grown to 35% ” of men who accept women with a promiscuous past.

    The connection does not follow through

  • Tom

    Herb, my friend Bobby was the same caliber athlete I was. The biggest difference between us was he was really stubborn which I`m sure helped him in the cold water. He told me I would have made it past the entry testing, but I told him no way would I have made it past the full course. Those guys want it BAD. He wanted me to go in on the buddy system. Having a father who was shot up and was 100% disabled in Korea, I had a bad taste in my mouth for anything military. I am not in favor of “for profit wars.”

  • Cooper

    @Ted D #563

    Good post. I agree, and relate, to much of it.

    Like you, I am generally a pretty happy guy – I don’t let others bring me down, although me myself can do a fine job of it at times.
    I also make my decisions based on how I think things should be done, and not necessarily by how much appreciation they get. (including passing on casual sex)
    I think we dictate our actions based more on our internal review – the part that sucks is others don’t necessarily appreciate our choices as much as we might ourselves. Like I said last post, the part that worries me is that our decisions don’t become more valued with time.

    Am I correct is presuming you’ve also been more focused on finding a “partner” than “getting laid?”
    It seems the “getting laid” guys have it better all around. (isnt part of game about convincing betas to adoptthis attitude?) When it all boils down: women like confident men, ones confident in their ability please sexually, usually guys with high-Ns, ones who have always had a “get laid” attitube. I’m not sure if this ever changes.
    I think Susan has said a few times, once quite recently, that it really would only take a weekend with someone whom one is passionate for to communite and learn how to please each other sexually. So I don’t get why women seem to value men who’ve already perfected their skills (and have achieved that certain level of confidence) beforehand.
    I guess this would be the equivalent of a women not understanding why a man would prefer a women of low-N.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      So I don’t get why women seem to value men who’ve already perfected their skills (and have achieved that certain level of confidence) beforehand.

      I don’t want to open a can of worms but I will say once again that women are drawn to men with options, not men who exercise all options. I distinguish between preselection and male promiscuity as a proxy for preselection. And I believe the vast majority of women do as well. Which does not mean that manwhores don’t get laid – they do. By women who tingle for male promiscuity.

  • Cooper

    @Ted
    ” in today’s Western world having a life outlook based on traditional morality is very much a hinderence. . . . I don’t see most people in a very favorable light. . . . . It can’t be helped when you truly believe your morals ARE better than everyone else’s. And as much as I was taught growing up that it isn’t my place to judge, . . . . it would be a total lie to say I don’t sometimes have to intentionally filter my behaviors toward people to accomplish that.”

    Lol, yup! +1

  • Tom

    Abbott
    ______________
    and I quote,”Hookups and one-night stands can turn into partnerships. Thirty-five percent have had a one-night stand that turned into a long-term relationship.”

    It didnt say 35% of one night stands turned into relationships, it said 35% have HAD ONS`s that resulted in relationships..Big Difference.
    35% of 5000 people is 1750 people who had ONS`s that went on to more.

    Ok maybe you are right, half of those 1750 were men. So closer to one in five..Still substantial That is still @ 1000 out of 5000, hardly Most all men as you like to say.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “So I don’t get why women seem to value men who’ve already perfected their skills (and have achieved that certain level of confidence) beforehand.

    Because that’s attractive. It’s like training a girl how to dress and act feminine: it’s a lot of work, and it’s an attractive trait, so a girl who already has it is going to be more attractive

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “It seems the “getting laid” guys have it better all around. ”

    I”m gonna open myself up for a lot of crap with this statement, but oh well.

    No, I don’t think the guys into “getting laid” have it better all around at all. Now, I’m not going to say it is easy necessarily for any man to get tail. But, if PUA guys are to be believed any guy can do it. So, by their own words, that to me makes it less valuable than say, a guy that sticks to his beliefs and yet finds a way to make things work.

    It really is about what you want/need from others. Perhaps most men simply don’t want/need a deep connection with a woman at all. Perhaps most men get those needs met by their male friends. (By that I mean perhaps most men get their social needs met by other men more than women in their lives. ) Maybe most men are simply more shallow than I am. To be honest, I really don’t know what motivates most people. I think the biggest thing I’ve learned in all this is: I am NOT the average bear. I’ve always known that to an extent, but I really never understood just how outside the norm I am.

    I now realize I really do expect an awful lot from a mate. I’m looking for some pretty heavy stuff, and in light of our current social climate, there really just aren’t a lot of “heavy” type people around. Yes, I’m saying that deeply intellectual people just don’t seem to be as abundant as they once were. And not only do I want a woman with above average intelligence (or lets just say general smarts to avoid the IQ debate) but I also want her to be my friend, my lover, my social planner (because if she doesn’t do it, I won’t leave the house!), my secretary, my caregiver (I’m one miserable sick dude. Fortunately I don’t get really sick often), my partner in raising our kids… and I haven’t even started on physical attributes. I complained a lot that there seems to be a lack of “good” women around, but the truth is I’m not looking for good, I’m looking for exceptional. I just never realized it. Putting that into perspective has helped me a lot in terms of coming to grips with some of this stuff. To be sure, I still think I’m giving a fair deal for what I’m asking. But I never realized just how much I was asking.

    Anyway, don’t give up just because the path you want to walk is harder. Climb that bitch and own it. And when you get to the top, enjoy the fruits of your efforts, even if no one around you sees the benefit. You are the one that has to live with yourself in the end.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    When I think about it, it’s pretty extraordinary that as many people muddle through with their self-discipline and integrity intact.

    Sorry, didn’t mean to go OT so much. It’s probably a combination of choice and circumstance, quality over quantity, even if that means going a year or more without someone in your life. I certainly wouldn’t have gone after my SO if she had just come out of a relationship, or hadn’t been celibate for at least a year or two before meeting her.

    The problem with saying: puberty = time to start having sex (which I don’t subscribe to), though biologically correct, is that you really can’t blast the hookup scene anymore. It’s just a manifestation of short-term instincts overruling long-term considerations. And it’s going on to some degree at the high school level already. But as you’ve pointed out numerous times, and failing to convince most male regulars, it isn’t widespread at all. A large chunk of young people don’t participate at all, and most of the rest of them don’t spend much time past freshman year trying it out, especially if you don’t consider just kissing hooking up.

    The university environment only provides 4 options for young people to choose from: single and celibate, single and hooking up (infrequently), STR or serial monogamy, LTR that lasts past graduation. Are the first 2 the most common? Probably, and I’m not quite clear why that is. FWIW dating people seriously, i.e. for marriage, was much more common at the much-maligned (@HUS) community college level when I was there. I met and pursued women who really were marriage material. Rarely met women like that at the university level, where dating really was a drag. I’m softening quite a bit to your idea of combining more robust dating + limited serial monogamy. It’d definitely be an improvement over the status quo.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      The university environment only provides 4 options for young people to choose from: single and celibate, single and hooking up (infrequently), STR or serial monogamy, LTR that lasts past graduation.

      That’s interesting, here’s how I would have described it:
      1. single and celibate
      2. single and hooking up (infrequently)
      3. STR strategy aka hooking up frequently
      4. LTR or serial monogamy, which may or may not last past graduation

      IOW the women I know who have had relationships in college have generally remained in them for a minimum of one year, and often two or three. I would rank the options in order of desirability:

      4,1,2,3

      FWIW dating people seriously, i.e. for marriage, was much more common at the much-maligned (@HUS) community college level when I was there.

      Pssshhh, that was only one knucklehead. And they didn’t know squat about CA’s JC system. My oldest friend runs a dental hygiene program at a CC in No. Cal and I swear they’re better trained than some dentists on the east coast.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    Can you provide some of the links you mentioned providing the background on Gauvain’s work? The Marie Claire article is not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be. The “Clark” scenario she opens the article with was a definitely a case of settling for the herb, not trying to make it work with a cad.

    As for the list:

    “1. We’ve dated for so long I don’t want to waste all the time we have invested in the relationship.”

    Cads don’t invest in relationships. That’s (one of) the problem(s) with them. Herbs overinvest and create an unhealthy sense of obligation/gratitude.

    “2. I don’t want to be alone.”

    Cads are the ones who leave women alone, that’s part of their appeal. See also the one example in the article that clearly refers to a cad – she missed the warning signal that she left her alone too much. Herbs NEVER leave you alone. That’s (one of) the problem(s) with them.

    “3. He’ll change after we get married.”

    This could apply to either case, but I’ll grant that it leans toward cad. Women who settle for herbs often are unaware what the problem with their “perfect” guy is.

    “4. It is too late, too embarrassing and/or too expensive to call off the wedding”

    Women who marry cads are more worried about getting him to the altar before he decides to bolt than calling off the wedding themselves. Definite herb.

    “5. He is a really nice guy; I don’t want to hurt his feelings.”

    HERB!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      Can you provide some of the links you mentioned providing the background on Gauvain’s work?

      Eh, I’m not looking to get into a tit for tat, but Mike sourced the original link. I just googled Jennifer Gauvain to get more info – although there wasn’t much.

      The Marie Claire article is not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be. The “Clark” scenario she opens the article with was a definitely a case of settling for the herb, not trying to make it work with a cad.

      First I am not making any argument about Gauvain’s work or the article. I was simply responding to Mike C’s claim that the article demonstrates that 30% of divorced women admit to marrying men they didn’t love for the provider aspect.

      She does indeed open the article with the herb example, and follows up with two cad examples. I extrapolated that 1/3 – 2/3 split to suggest that perhaps 1/3 of the 10% represent the beta snatchers. Just a back of the envelope estimate – Gauvain does not actually provide any data.

      Cads don’t invest in relationships.

      Whatever you choose to call them, there are many guys who marry and make terrible husbands. Perhaps the woman has a sense that the guy just doesn’t really love her – that was one of the examples. Or she knows the relationship dynamic is not a healthy one.

      I don’t really think that Gauvain’s work splits neatly into alpha and beta categories.

      In any case, even #5, the one where the woman is afraid to hurt the guy’s feelings – does not substantiate Mike’s claim, which is that women settle for men they don’t love just to snag a beta provider. In that case, one of the reasons should be “I wanted a dependable man who could support me.” Or perhaps, “I didn’t think I could get a better guy.”

      As far as I know, there is no data on this question. Until I see some evidence, even anecdotally, I will continue to hold the opinion that the “hop off carousel, snag beta” meme is overblown.

  • Abbot

    Yes, 35% of singles have had a one-night stand that turned into a long term partnership according to some “study” or survey actually that Match.com posted on its site. Unsurprisingly, the survey also revealed that about 25% of young adults are virgins, as reported by Match.com in reference to the survey.

    If half were women, that implies 17-1/2% of this big survey were men meaning that women should probably use another method, their dignity notwithstanding. What is not known among those surveyed is how many ONS they had in total or even the total N. Until more “evidence” is discovered, it can be assumed that those who transitioned into a “relationship” are not prolific fuck-on-first-date folks or even promiscuous. Then, once again, it does not follow from this “ONS survey” that any percentage [pick a number] of men do not consider a woman’s past when deciding who to commit to.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    I feel you pushing back on the “settling for the herb” (i.e. Marnie/Charlie) problem, and I’m actually somewhat with you. It’s far less of a problem among the rising generation (especially in your circle) than it was/is for second-wavers*. For one thing, thanks to the Ro’s there are a lot less herbs around, but the main factor in driving it out has been the hookup culture itself.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the reason young women instituted it (the hookup prerequisite for dating – see Being Flynn for a good example of how it works) in the first place. Serial monogamy with a string of herbs is a spectacularly bad strategy for women who squander the height of their sexual power in relationships that close off their options without getting them closer to their goal of finding a man who would make a good marriage partner.

    It’s not so hot for those prospective partners either (obv my motivation for writing about it), but I think understanding how the hookup culture arose in the first place is essential to coming up with better alternatives. Also might help you get along better with the manosphere and some feminists of good faith, as the reason they both take issue with you is the fear that you want to take us back to serial monogamy with herbs. That’s what the “building a better beta” stuff is about.

    I don’t believe that you want to do that. But if LTR’s are to become the new norm, they need to look a lot more like the LTR’s of your SMP and a lot less like the LTR’s that preceded the hookup scene.

    * – it is still glorified in the media and in, for instance, jewelry commercials on radio. The problem is that healthy relationships do involve some mutual supplication/idealizing one’s partner, at least seeing the best in them, but with the herb its a one-way street and way overdone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      That’s what the “building a better beta” stuff is about.

      Again, not looking to enter a debate, but IMO what it’s about is twofold:

      1. The absolute conviction that women seek to control and rule men, and that my aim is to teach women how to do that.

      2. Susan Walsh Derangement Syndrome.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: SEAL training. I went through BUD/S in 1994 (Class 195) and there were really three training evolutions—after the first week, which is just a brutal shock and exposes the dilettantes—that I distinctly remember causing mass ring-outs (i.e., student quittings): a long bay swim w/o fins or wetsuit rubber that was called “Wetsuit Appreciation”; Hell Week, which is infamous and probably requires no further description; and “Treading Water”, an evolution early in the 2nd Phase (Dive Phase) that had the student tread water for five minutes with no hands and while wearing twin steel-80s and a weight belt (touching the side of the pool was considered a drop on request).

    Being in extreme physical condition will definitely provide you with an edge at BUD/S, but the instructors excel at finding what you are *not* good at and eventually most guys will run into some weird problem areas and have to do some real soul-searching. Being a highly accomplished, highly-praised athlete can work against you mentally if you feel that you could quit BUD/S and go back to Big Man on Campus status somewhere else; on the other hand, there are some Batman-level multidisciplinary pre-existing uberstuds who make it through training, too.

    As the old saying goes, “Some men fear wars. Wars fear some men.”

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    (1) I’m only here for this thread, so you needn’t worry that you’re about to encourage yet another verbose man to take over your comment section. Love you guys, but jeez.

    (2) I’m not looking to get in a tit-for-tat either. There are obvious areas of disagreement, both between us and between you and the manosphere.

    In the former case, I believe that if enough progress can be made in the areas in which we agree (the top of the MMP, and what it takes to improve it), the areas in which we disagree will take care of themselves; I’ve also noticed some of your ideas that I’ve initially resisted showing up later in my own thought, and vice versa.

    In the latter, agreed that the Deranged have behaved egregiously, but we don’t get to pick our allies, we just get to need them, and some mutual understanding can’t hurt.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      I’ve also noticed some of your ideas that I’ve initially resisted showing up later in my own thought, and vice versa.

      Good point. The dialog, including the debate, can be very informative and influential. But I need to stay focused on the goal. Quantifying how many women deceive men into marrying them without love is certainly something I can imagine the MRAs (or anyone agitating for change) being concerned about.

      However, for my purposes here, how many divorced women had doubts walking down the aisle is irrelevant for the individual male. I have often stated that unless a man knows in his bones that a woman is head over heels for him, and has consistently demonstrated that over an extended period of time, he should not get married. That is the relevant advice to the individual. Some of the men most vocal about this concern are married men who have admitted learning years into marriage that their wives were never in love with them or even sexually attracted to them. That tells me these men married without the appropriate commitment from the woman, and they bear responsibility for that choice.

      some mutual understanding can’t hurt.

      Tried that. I’d have had more luck domesticating a rattlesnake.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Until I see some evidence, even anecdotally, I will continue to hold the opinion that the “hop off carousel, snag beta” meme is overblown.”

    I’m not talking about the “hop off the carousel, snag beta” meme. I’m talking about the “must always have boyfriend to keep up appearances, serve as validation buddy (i.e. Marnie w/ Charlie), but always keeping an eye out to trade up” meme. This strategy was disastrous on several levels, most crucially in screening out the best marriage prospects who weren’t interested in women looking to trade up to them, lest those women then look to trade up on them after.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Susan
    “Until I see some evidence, even anecdotally, I will continue to hold the opinion that the “hop off carousel, snag beta” meme is overblown.”

    But earlier on you said that you girls can’t even figure out who’s Alpha and who’s Beta, and even us GUYS can’t really figure it out, so much that people like Dogsquat and Postmasculine think the terminology obfuscates more than it illuminates.

    So I don’t disagree with you that girls will pick up guys that they think are attractive. The deciding factor, though, is what the GUYS think of themselves, and how they react to the girl’s sexuality.

    My tag is A Definite BETA Guy. Many people I know IRL that know about the Alpha-Beta divide would be very confused indeed about this label. As far as they know, I’m not a douchebag that belongs in a club, but I am one of the few guys they know that can command the attention of a room. I automatically assume leadership roles. I wrestled for years and got into more fight than I can count. I’m not a “nice guy,” most people think I’m actually kind of cocky/jerkish. I’ve had my share of girls coming at me over the years, though I turned them down (for the most part). Even in my last relationship, I somehow managed to convince this girl to start a LDR even though she said she NEVER would, got her into bed rather quickly, had a very strong sex life, somehow managed to convince her that I am an awesome lifemate despite not knowing how to change the oil in my car, etc.

    They’d say I’m well on the way to being Alpha. Especially after I upgrade my wardrobe, get a new haircut, and get some more interesting things going on. With how physical/sexual I am just naturally, they’d also laugh at the idea of me not escalating physically with women.

    But I still consider myself Beta and I have had a lot of negative experiences with women and no positive experiences, so when I was asked to wait for sex after it was already given freely…well, I sort of flipped shit.

    This happened to a coworker of mine and an ex-interest of mine, actually. This girl, quite attractive and tall, does some modeling work on the side, was quite the little harlot at university. Lots of sex, gave most of the basketball team blowjobs, threesomes, etc. There was a little something between me and her, too (ADBG, you hooked up with a girl that MODELS and you consider yourself BETA?!), complete with a few “pictures” that made the rounds.

    Anyways, she decided that she wanted to get together with my coworker. No strict commitment, but they dated. Never had sex. This guy was like me, has a strong Beta side, but really can pull off Alpha, too. On the other hand, one night some college friends got kind of tipsy, and we started talking about me and her and the pictures, which he hadn’t heard about…he didn’t even have sex with her…and oh boy it made him sick.
    She was absolutely sexually attracted to him, I am sure, but she decided to be more “mature” with him and it backfired, especially as her past came to light, which it always does. Especially since he doesn’t have those crazy-ass experiences.

    Another of my good friends decided to have a FWB with 2+ years then through a shit-fit when her next BF demanded to have sex with her after a few months of dating. I am sure she liked the new BF, too, and didn’t just latch on for a provider, but the discrimination was still there.

    Of the girls in a student organization I was in, 1/3 admitted to having a ONS. Another friend of mine hinted strongly to her “recycling” period, another close friend has revealed lots of stuff about her past but hasn’t explicitly said she made her current BF wait.

    If you unleash female sexuality, price discrimination is inevitable. Period. Eventually, she is going to run into some guy that she likes and wants to wait for, and if he finds out, there’s a very good chance he will be pissed. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with alpha vs. beta, but it is inevitable if you do not establish very, very strict rules governing sexuality.

    First is:
    NO CASUAL SEX PERIOD.

    The other problem is the changing nature of female and male SMV and mating choices. Girls start out with higher SMV and some of them are going to accumulate some “wild” experiences in college because it’s about “fun.” After college, they will start getting serious. To some extent, this is what our culture encourages, and this is even what you encourage.

    Guy SMV does not start rising until this period. So you are going to have many cases where a Girl 7 with a crazy past is going to run into a Guy 7 who maybe banged a few 4s in college because he has only just boosted his SMV. It is quite possible and reasonable that Girl 7 decides to wait with Guy 7, and Guy 7 flips a shit because he is only recently into his SMV status and is not comfortable with, and assumes he is being used for emotional support.

    If you want to avoid these scenarios:
    No casual sex ever.
    Try not to be “crazy.”
    Sex occurs with monogamy, IE, if you aren’t fucking him, you have NO right to call him your boyfriend.
    Period.
    Period.
    Period.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ADBG

      Great comment, and I learned a lot about you too. I’m surprised because of your handle, but that really helps to put things in context.

      Girls start out with higher SMV and some of them are going to accumulate some “wild” experiences in college because it’s about “fun.” After college, they will start getting serious. To some extent, this is what our culture encourages, and this is even what you encourage.

      Yes, some of them will have wild fun in college. But only a minority – 10 or 20%. I just saw a graphic in the UC-Berkeley student newspaper about the sexual behavior of their students. There in the city of free love only a tiny minority of students is having casual sex. So where you train your lens will largely determine what you see.

      Wrt settling down, I agree the culture encourages it, and while I would recommend that every woman avoid casual sex, even if she was having it before, I do not believe that men should tolerate price discrimination. To be honest, I think it’s a good thing for a promiscuous woman to go on hiatus, and then reenter the SMP with a new attitude about sex. That’s the kind of self-improvement in discipline I will always condone. However, I would tell her up front that she should expect less experienced guys to balk at the price hike, and that she owes it to the guy to be honest. That’s the consequence of the choices she made in the past.

      So you are going to have many cases where a Girl 7 with a crazy past is going to run into a Guy 7 who maybe banged a few 4s in college because he has only just boosted his SMV.

      This *definitely* happens. This was the Jesus Mahoney story and I do not think it’s unusual. This gets at something I’ve often said about alpha/beta. It has nothing to do with looks. When a handsome beta gets out of college, gets some career traction, and begins to come into his own, he’s going to be an attractive prospect for marriage, no question. Girls who were wild in college and never would have given him the time of day will suddenly be seeing him in a new light. These women are not wife material, and should be avoided, IMO. That guy is going to have options now and that means he can be discriminating. Why would he even bother with a skanky 7 when he can attract a 7 with a much lower number?

      Guys with improving SMV have to decide what kind of mating strategy they wish to pursue, and going for a LTR with STR girls is not going to work.

  • Mike C

    First I am not making any argument about Gauvain’s work or the article. I was simply responding to Mike C’s claim that the article demonstrates that 30% of divorced women admit to marrying men they didn’t love for the provider aspect.

    Actually, I do not believe I made that claim. I know I didn’t in any of the comments in this thread, and I don’t think I did the first time around when I linked to the article. What I disagreed with is taking the 3 examples in the article and then applying that to the overall 30% to get 10% which obviously isn’t robust.

    Most of the time, I think I am precise in the exact point I am making. From my recollection, and if you can find the original comment maybe I am wrong, but I think I simply provided the link with a “hey, look here, 30% of divorcedwomen marry the wrong man”. What does that mean?

    At the end of the day, we are in the same place we often are in these point/counterpoint situations (like sexual activity amongst young women) where the data simply isn’t robust and granular enough to get a high level of confidence. We really don’t know for certain of that 30% what percentage are settling for beta providers versus marrying guys for other “wrong” reasons, and then it comes down to anecdotes from here and there.

    To whatever degree it is or is not prevalent, any women who does marry the “beta provider” for provisioning does serious damage to the institution of marriage

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      From my recollection, and if you can find the original comment maybe I am wrong, but I think I simply provided the link with a “hey, look here, 30% of divorcedwomen marry the wrong man”. What does that mean?

      You said, “Does this remind you of a certain meme?” I took that to mean you were offering evidence for the alpha cock carousel —–> hit wall ——-> snag beta meme. My apologies if I misunderstood what you were implying.

      At the end of the day, we are in the same place we often are in these point/counterpoint situations (like sexual activity amongst young women) where the data simply isn’t robust and granular enough to get a high level of confidence.

      Well I’ve written about several studies with hard data for the sexual behavior of college students, e.g. Justice Dept., NIH. I consider the data very robust and significant, but I think it’s pretty clear that there is no study I might present, no sample size I could produce, that would shift your beliefs about young women in the SMP. And that’s fine – I understand that, and have no wish to pointlessly volley back and forth, as you say.

      To whatever degree it is or is not prevalent, any women who does marry the “beta provider” for provisioning does serious damage to the institution of marriage

      Agreed, as does any man who marries a woman he is not faithful to.

  • Mike C

    I’m talking about the “must always have boyfriend to keep up appearances, serve as validation buddy (i.e. Marnie w/ Charlie), but always keeping an eye out to trade up” meme.

    You’ve pointed out another dynamic that is kind of related to the “beta provider” one although I’d say the beta provider is more for women pushing late 20s/early 30s where the have a “boyfriend” for status/validation with the “trade/up” option is more a under 25 phenomenon.

    I haven’t watched the show. All I know of it is what I’ve read here, but by all accounts Marnie felt no genuine love, respect, loyalty, anything for Charlie. I’m all for monogamous relationships rooted in sincere love and emotional depth, but in my mind there is nothing “better” in the type of relationship that Marnie/Charlie had then a guy who just randomly pumps and dumps sluts. Either way, the root desire is 100% self-oriented. In the case of men, it is the desire for strange pussy….whereas for women it is the “boyfriend” as prop to satisfy the need for validation, status, etc.

    I think one hot topic is obviously this idea of “serial monogamy” and is it morally superior to a guy who just hooks up casually. And I think it depends. If the relationship is “real” with true love and affection, I think that is good, and obviously people can find out they are not compatible or life plans can interfere with the relationship continuing or young people simply growing apart. But that is quite different than the young woman who bounces from “boyfriend” to “boyfriend” every 6-9 months in a relationship usually dumping the guy and trading up to a “better” guy. I think it is correct to say that behavior is really the female equivalent of the guy who just looks to get laid casually with a variety of women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      But that is quite different than the young woman who bounces from “boyfriend” to “boyfriend” every 6-9 months in a relationship usually dumping the guy and trading up to a “better” guy. I think it is correct to say that behavior is really the female equivalent of the guy who just looks to get laid casually with a variety of women.

      I agree in principle, but again – how many women are doing this? First, there is a dearth of relationships for women under 25. Many women graduate from college without having had a single serious relationship. The rising percentage of virgins is just one indication of this.

      Second, the most hypergamous women spend most of their time trying to tame a player, which is rarely successful. Those fake relationships do happen, and are often short in duration, but rarely because the woman is trading up.

      It sounds like you are describing a promiscuous woman who bounces from beta to beta, and that doesn’t make sense to me. Having a devoted boyfriend does not provide status or validation for her unless he is very high status himself.

      Re Charlie and Marnie, that really was a two vagina relationship. I pity Charlie, and am happy he’s found a new girl. I hope he will avoid making the same mistakes this time around. Because pedestalization is too weak a word to describe what he did in that relationship. I mean, this is a guy who begged her to put her face close to his so that he could breathe in her carbon dioxide.

      Marnie’s mistake was hanging in there way too long out of habit and even pity. She owed it to Charlie to tell him that she had become repulsed by him.

  • Mike C

    If you unleash female sexuality, price discrimination is inevitable. Period. Eventually, she is going to run into some guy that she likes and wants to wait for, and if he finds out, there’s a very good chance he will be pissed. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with alpha vs. beta, but it is inevitable if you do not establish very, very strict rules governing sexuality.

    First is: NO CASUAL SEX PERIOD.

    The other problem is the changing nature of female and male SMV and mating choices. Girls start out with higher SMV and some of them are going to accumulate some “wild” experiences in college because it’s about “fun.” After college, they will start getting serious. To some extent, this is what our culture encourages, and this is even what you encourage.

    Guy SMV does not start rising until this period. So you are going to have many cases where a Girl 7 with a crazy past is going to run into a Guy 7 who maybe banged a few 4s in college because he has only just boosted his SMV. It is quite possible and reasonable that Girl 7 decides to wait with Guy 7, and Guy 7 flips a shit because he is only recently into his SMV status and is not comfortable with, and assumes he is being used for emotional support

    Very interesting. I hadn’t thought to draw the connection between the price discrimination issue and the different SMV curves, but I think you spot on. A woman’s SMV peaks in that 20-25 range, so her “best” sexual opportunities will be in that age range, but that is at odds with her desire to pursue committment north of 25. If she is seeking a similar age or even slightly older male her SMV is on the decline while his is ramping up. It is very likely his 20-25 experience will be radically different from hers especially if he was lower SMV and improved.

    You are spot on basically everything else. Really, what it comes down to, is for the highly promiscuous female especially in that 20-25 range there is no going back, no do-overs or mulligans. Really, your best bet is not to try and change the rules on a guy you meet down the road because it will spark bitterness and resentment he probably won’t be able to get over. Alternatively, you’d have to pair off with a highly promiscuous guy, but ironically even they might not be able to get past it (consider the commenter Jason). The difficult to swallow truth is that the sexual decisions a woman makes in early 20s when her SMV is relatively higher will likely impact her opportunity set going forward unless she decides to lie which has its own set of risks (the Jesus Mahoney situation and I believe Dogsquat had a similar situation

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Most girls would love nothing more than to have the responsibility of being in love.”

    This is where the manosphere misses the boat and could learn a lot from your approach.

    The breakthrough I experienced in becoming an effective teacher was realizing (through teaching elementary school) that the love of learning was the most natural thing in the world for young people. It wasn’t my job to convince them to learn, even if they claimed not to want to (a common occurrence by high school), to make it exciting – it already was exciting, naturally, I just had to figure out what it was that was getting in the way of what they would otherwise be doing naturally, to create a good learning environment.

    In teaching this involves creating a norm where it’s ok to make mistakes, to admit ignorance (a prerequisite for learning itself, after all) without being afraid of losing face, either from a teacher’s dark sarcasm or another student who is creating their own norm not conducive to learning.

    Likewise, grownups have a similar role to play in the SMP, and if we take claims of “I’m too busy for a relationship” or “I’d rather just play the field for now” from young women or men at face value, we’ve fallen short of our responsibilities. Pair-bonding is in fact a natural phenomenon, but it takes the work of a whole society to create a healthy environment where it can result in strong families.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    I can’t tell if you’re pushing back on the “slumming with the herb” idea (i.e. second-wave serial monogamy) or are just oblivious to it. As I said, I’m somewhat with you if you’re seeking to deemphasize it, as the cure (the hookup prerequisite) has turned out to be worse than the disease. Young women are so afraid of being trapped with a herb, they’re often screening out the betas who would make good marriage prospects and even a few alphas (!) seeking to do the right thing.

    Last post for awhile, here are four strategies that will hopefully clarify the issue (I’ve added the fourth in attempt to reflect the healthy serial monogamy you advocate – any corrections appreciated):

    From worst to best:

    (1) Time-delayed cuckoldry/de facto polygamy (via sexy sons)/ride carousel snag beta. More than enough has already been said on this one. Area of disagreement. One data point that doesn’t fit with your analysis – more than half of children born in the U.S. last year were out of wedlock. Whatever. Not the focus of your blog – understood. The areas in which we agree will help this regardless.

    (2) Second-wave serial monogamy: always in a relationship, often with an emasculated herb, but looking to trade-up. This is where hypergamy runs rampant, not in (1), as at least the monogamy norm is operative here.

    (3a) Healthy serial monogamy: relationships only with good marriage prospects, physical intimacy escalated by the male in proportion with emotional intimacy escalated by the female, relationships end before new ones begin, being single in between is not a DLV in your social circle. I’m old enough to have caught the end of your SMP where this was the norm when I was very young. Should have struck while the iron was hot. Call me the male Kate Bolick.

    (3b) “Traditional” courtship. Similar to (3a) but the female only agrees the restrict herself to exclusivity at the height of her sexual power if the male will agree to do so at the height of his. This agreement represented by a ring. Both physical and emotional intimacy are naturally slower to develop.

    I’d obviously prefer (3b), but (3a) is certainly acceptable if that is all that’s available.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    IOW the women I know who have had relationships in college have generally remained in them for a minimum of one year, and often two or three.

    Your description of the 4 options makes more sense, thanks. FWIW I think there have been enough surveys of college guys that show a majority of them would also prefer #4 the most. After that, I don’t think you’ll get a consistent response, but celibacy is probably at the bottom for most. But I’ve met plenty of highly traditional guys who see #4 as the only thing worth going for. And they prefer women who agree.

    I think you mentioned earlier that it’s not the primary job of universities to foster a relationship-friendly environment, which is true, but it seems to me that they’ve been structured to do the opposite: co-ed dorms, alcohol everywhere, free contraceptives, and a generally anti-traditional “experimental” culture. You could almost say the Big U doesn’t even acknowledge monogamy as the preferred form of mating. Other than health centers, none of these things were present to any great extent at the community college level.

    Serial monogamy as you describe it would significantly cut down on all the negative aspects of the hookup scene: alcoholism, STDs, unplanned pregancies, depression, and even the uncommonly awful bacterial meningitis. I understand campus health clinics tend to be horror shows for these kinds of things. Sometimes skipping the dorm experience makes all the difference : )

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I think you mentioned earlier that it’s not the primary job of universities to foster a relationship-friendly environment, which is true, but it seems to me that they’ve been structured to do the opposite: co-ed dorms, alcohol everywhere, free contraceptives, and a generally anti-traditional “experimental” culture.

      No I didn’t mean that. Or at least I am on record as saying I wish universities still embraced in loco parentis. That is, they may not be responsible for promoting relationships, but they’ve abdicated control by having coed dorms and looking the other way on underage drinking. That’s how hookup culture took hold. And I agree completely on the nonsensical sex-positive stance of most administrations and faculty.

      A current article in the Berkeley student newspaper features students saying how much hookup culture stinks for them, and a faculty person saying how wonderful casual sexual experiences can be. Ugh.

  • J

    I think this notion of women being constantly on some sort of hypergamous prowl, ever-seeking a bigger and better mate, is really overblown. Do women seek the best provider they can find before settling down? Yes, of course. Who wants to make babies with a guy who can’t provide for them? The instinct to look for that is strong. So strong that in situations where, due to whatever conditions might get in the way, men don’t provide, women still look for some proxy behavior that mimics providing (like the best thug among the other unemployed thugs). However the notion that women are on a constant drive to replace one poor chump with the next is more reflective of manosphere fears than the average woman’s desires. The net can be an aggregator of fear and outrage, but the fact the ‘sphere attracts men who have suffered some horrible experiences at the hands of “hypergamous” women doesn’t make the rest of us hypergamous.

  • Tom

    jason
    That makes more sense then. I’m certainly not in the ‘any woman who isn’t a virgin is a slut’ camp either, but numbers still do matter. While I agree that there is some validity in the way a girl gets there, my social cirlce and I are looking for girls in their low to mid 20s, thus 10+ does start raising a red flag for most of the guys.

    I totally agree, 10 men at 22 years old is a lot

  • Abbot

    “numbers still do matter”
    “I totally agree”

    Although women do not want their “number” to mean anything at all and if it does, whatever it indicates and how anyone feels about it should be up to women. But alas, the evaluation of female sexual behavior [with men] and its ultimate outcome is obviously and entirely under the purview of men.

  • Tom

    Although women do not want their “number” to mean anything at all and if it does, whatever it indicates and how anyone feels about it should be up to women. But alas, the evaluation of female sexual behavior [with men] and its ultimate outcome is obviously and entirely under the purview of men.
    __________
    I totally agree with you too. My point is men have varying degrees of what is acceptable. You and I are perfect examples of that. I admit more men feel the way you do, no doubt. But I do think more men than you think, feel the way I do……..

    Here is an interesting twist. In the lesbian world, how do women feel about hooking up with a promiscuous woman?….

  • Ted D

    Susan – “And please know that sexuality isn’t the only area I have issues.
    I fell off my chair reading this.”

    For all that PA tends to be a conservative state, don’t forget I live in Pittsburgh which has a VERY strong left-leaning populace from years of heavy union action when the steel mills were booming. I can’t talk about politics in mixed company because it quickly devolves into me becoming some “bible thumping, gun toting militia nut!”. OK, it isn’t always that bad, but it IS the direction the conversations usually go. To be honest, most of my opinions are FAR from popular. LOL

    Or did I miss a funny? Some days I’m humor challenged…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Yeah, you missed a funny. Your statement taken out of context comes across as very humorous.

  • Tom

    ted, on ploitics I bet you and I are on the same page. I cant stand the sheeple who just believe anything the see in the main stream media. A ton of nonfiction on the “nightly news” designed to influence and shape the sheeples thinking. We live in dangerous times

  • Ramble

    I just saw a graphic in the UC-Berkeley student newspaper about the sexual behavior of their students. There in the city of free love only a tiny minority of students is having casual sex.

    Escoffier will need to correct me on this, but, as far as I can tell, Berkeley looks a lot like Brookline. Not much free love and not much divorce.

    Now, had those same researchers said the same thing about The University of Miami, well, that would be interesting.

    And, remember, that girl that has a grand total of 2 “mistakes” in college does not qualify, I don’t think, as having casual sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Escoffier will need to correct me on this, but, as far as I can tell, Berkeley looks a lot like Brookline. Not much free love and not much divorce.

      Now, had those same researchers said the same thing about The University of Miami, well, that would be interesting.

      Are you saying that the student body of UC-Berkeley matches the demographics of the city of Berkeley?

  • Abbot

    “how do women feel about hooking up with a promiscuous woman?”

    There are no significant deep feelings or proud thoughts during a so-called hook up, high fives for men afterwards not withstanding.

    “more men than you think, feel the way I do”

    Universally insufficient to wife up all the women going cold turkey off their “right” to be passed around and the situation, at best, is not improving for them.

  • Ramble

    Are you saying that the student body of UC-Berkeley matches the demographics of the city of Berkeley?

    No, but that I am not surprised that Berkeley, nor Brookline, is not host to a party school.

    Though, I would not argue with you that most are not having lots of casual sex.

  • Escoffier

    Re: Berkeley, a couple of things.

    Even when I was there (late ’80s, early ’90s) there was not much of a hook-up scene. There was a strong greek scene, which has weakened considerably as various frats have behaved badly and had their charters suspended or revoked. Sure, the frat guys would have liked to have gotten unlimited ass but it was not so easy. The sororities, at least back then, very strongly policed their girls’ behavior. A girl could get kicked out of one of the top houses for being a slut. I only knew a few true players with big counts and they were almost all star athletes.

    Second, I think hook-up culture is less prevalant the more elite the school. Berkeley is the top UC campus, the top public school in the country, and the second most prestigious school on the West Coast. When I was there it ranked very high on the US News charts (whatever those are worth) and (especially) in rankings of various departments (over 30 were top 3 in the nation, with like 12 at #1). Now, it has declined a lot in the snooze rankings, mostly because of money issues. However, in terms of student quality, it’s gone up: it’s way harder to get in now than it was when I was there, your grades and scores have got to be a lot higher. This is a long-winded way of saying that Berkeley is a geek school by and large and geeks hook up less. I used to spend a lot of time around UCLA as a kid and marvelling how beautiful the girls were. I recall some frat guys lamenting to me that the “talent” was declining as UCLA increasingly became a “smart school.” The more competetive it is to get it, the geekier your student population will be. We used to have a saying, “Nine out of ten girls in California are beautiful and the other one goes to Stanford.” Anyway, the big party campus in the UC system is Santa Barbara. The hook-up culture is well entrenched there. At various Cal State campuses, Chico being the legendary one, the party scene dominates everything.

    3) Since the 1996 passage of Prop 209, which banned preferential admissions by race, Berkeley has becoming overwhelmingly Asian. Lots of these kids are the children of immigrant parents from the San Gabriel Valley and the like and they had very strict, religious up-bringings. They are just not natural chum for the hook-up culture. Even 3rd generation and later Asian kids tend to have higher “human capital” and just won’t succumb to that kind of bacchanalia in any great numbers. There has been some amusing reverse racism of sorts as older white faculty have lamented how Berkeley has become “boring” with all these studious Asians. Sort of the like the way Upper West Side liberals get nostaligic for Times Square in the Taxi Driver Era.

    4) Berkeley was never the home of “free love.” That was the Haight-Ashbury, across the bay. Berkeley was where the activists, the SDS, the New Left were active. I’m sure they did their share of screwing around and certainly they were all for free love in principle as they were against anything “bourgesoise” but their focus was on civil rights, Vietnam, etc.

    5) Berkeley is not really like Brookline today. It’s very bifurcated, or really trifurcated. You have the upper class in the hills, and that is quite like Brooklike only probably more liberal in opinion, but people live their personal lives conservatively. You have the University and its hangers-on, they are sort of the middle class and those who live in a hippie version of genteel poverty. These people are not so tidy in their personal lives. Then you have the flats which used to be very black but is now a rainbow coalition of ethnic groups, mostly poor. However, when I was there about six weeks ago, I was surprised at the rate the flats apper to be gentrifying. There is this grand wine shop, at the corner of University and San Pablo of all places, selling Romanee-Conti and 1st growth Bordeaux. Insane.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I was hoping we’d get the lowdown on Berkeley from you – thanks. :)

      BTW, I think I recall that Berkeley is only 13% out of state. It’s almost impossible. When my son got into UCSB we said, “That’s nice, you’re not going there.” It is a beautiful campus, though, my cousin is an Anthro prof there.

  • Abbot

    The hetero man brain is what it is and there is NO reason to accommodate a bunch of spoiled whiners who always expect to get their way. Good luck.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/23/GR2008062300060.html

    .

  • Ramble

    “Nine out of ten girls in California are beautiful and the other one goes to Stanford.”

    The first time I heard that was from John McEnroe, I thought it was hilarious.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Quantifying how many women deceive men into marrying them without love is certainly something I can imagine the MRAs (or anyone agitating for change) being concerned about.”

    As usual, talking completely past each other. I can imagine the MRAs being concerned about that too, but that’s not what I’m concerned about or where Mike was going or what the original post that started this thread was about.

    Marnie wasn’t deceiving Charlie, he was deceiving himself. But she was deceiving herself too, and as a result missing out on the work you describe so well in this post and the enjoyment that comes from doing that work well, especially for those women with Marnie’s physical gifts.

    “some mutual understanding can’t hurt.

    Tried that. I’d have had more luck domesticating a rattlesnake.”

    Fair enough – unilateral understanding then. Your target audience has a pack of rattlesnakes on their hands these days. Somebody needs to help them domesticate them.

    “I agree in principle, but again – how many women are doing this? First, there is a dearth of relationships for women under 25. Many women graduate from college without having had a single serious relationship. The rising percentage of virgins is just one indication of this.”

    Yes, this is what I was saying too. But the dearth now is a result the overabundance of this phenomenon before, and is a reaction to it. If you want to understand the dearth, you need to understand what caused it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As usual, talking completely past each other. I can imagine the MRAs being concerned about that too, but that’s not what I’m concerned about or where Mike was going or what the original post that started this thread was about.

      Yes, we do have a way of doing that.

      To be accurate, Mike linked to the Gauvain post on another thread, it wasn’t in response to this post. I don’t even see why it’s relevant here, frankly.

      I believe Mike summed up his view by saying that women who dupe guys into marriage to provide for them financially even though they are not in love with them hurt the institution of marriage. I agree.

      I don’t understand what we’re debating. I guess I just don’t observe your option #2 – women in relationships with emasculated herbs. I thought the whole point about those men is that they can’t get a date, much less a girlfriend. I don’t know why men think these guys will be snapped up as providers in a time when 20-something women make more than their male counterparts.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        When I was looking for the image of the divorce map by state, I also found a teen pregnancy map by state. Perhaps unsurprisingly, they are very similar:

        tp

        This puts the claim from players that “even church girls” want them in a whole new light!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think that a lot of the women with higher N counts coming out of the college hookup culture realize that no relationship-minded guy wants to hear about this, so they only count LTRs in their disclosed N calculations (unless they are hanging out in the same social circle from college). Hook-ups, exotic adventures, and casual frolics are simply held in an off-balance sheet special purpose vehicle.

    Honest disclosure of N would be a bit like a guy preemptively warning a love interest by saying, “in an ideal world, I’d prefer casual sex with a rotating harem of partners.” He knows that this is not what most women can bear hearing, so he probably won’t disclose it (let’s be honest here). The male rationalization mechanism is to simply avoid thinking about it very hard, and to tell himself/others—probably truthfully—that he “wants to settle down one day with the right woman.”

    I have heard several men argue that one of the most unfair things about the hypergamy culture is that the man who plays by the old rules and devotes, say, 75% of his discretionary resources—time, money, energy—to his relationship can be at a steep competitive advantage to the more self-absorbed man who spends that 75% on his private array of interesting self-development projects. Narcissism (within bounds) is being rewarded.

    I don’t think the brutally stark “player or chump” dichotomy is necessarily the case, but I do think that the more ferocious Manosphere writers are correct to tell their readers that they need to compartmentalize their lives into separate, uncorrelated activity buckets. According to at least some surveys, young women are already doing this and valuing independence and personal time more than most of their male peers do. A man with many hobbies and interests could see this as a liberating development and one of the positives about the modern SMP.

  • Abbot

    This is probably not a bad idea in general – more women should be giving similar advice and that has nothing to do with sexual frolic rights and everything to do with a balanced and safer dating market.

    “The bill passed despite Rep. Rashida Tlaib trying to pull a last minute Lysistrata, urging women in the state to stop having sex with men until they stood up against the bill.”

    The bill is Michigan HB 5711

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    And I agree completely on the nonsensical sex-positive stance of most administrations and faculty.

    Well, that’s going to depend on the department. But in general you’re right, administrations tend to be either indifferent to or very much against monoganormative ideas, which is what probably 85% of students are firmly in favor of. Surveys of incoming freshman consistently show that they’re enormously against the idea of having sex with someone you don’t know very well or aren’t dating or in a relationship with.

    For all the talk of dating and relationships causing stress in an already high pressure environment, it just seems like a very weak argument. People in love are happier, right? Emotional support, feelings of self-worth, etc. Wouldn’t these things make life better for students?

    When universities are preparing young people for the real world, emotionally as well as intellectually, I’ll agree things have improved. Until then, I’ll continue to tout community colleges as the only real alternative to the hookup scene : )

  • Ted D

    Susan – OK I have some coffee in me and I see the funny. :P I may be confused about a lot of things, but in that dept. I’m solidly sure. LOL

    In regards to women in college not being able to get men to commit: Well, if there are plenty of women willing to hook up, there isn’t much incentive for men to commit. I don’t blame guys for trying not to get tied down, even while I’m suggesting that to me it would be the better route. What will fix this? Well, as you put it elsewhere, young women will need to start keeping their knees shut. I’d love to convince guys to take the high road, but I don’t even see that working on traditional communities like Church congregations. I have very little faith that message would get any traction on your average college campus. So again, it goes back to parenting I guess. Parents will have to put a lot of focus on teaching their children good relationships habits. Of course my generation and the next missed that boat because many of our own parents were a mess. Perhaps our children will do better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      It’s not even fair to expect guys to take the high road. Incentives drive behavior, and women are the gatekeepers to sex. That’s the bottom line, the responsibility rests with us.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I think Berkeley and UCLA today are way more than 13 out of state, I think it’s closer to 20. Both campuses recruit heavily from OOS because they can charge those kids more and since California has been in more or less perpetual budget crisis for a decade now, the campuses really want the money. But they get pressure from state legislators not to lean too heavily from OOS because the purpose of the system after all is supposedly to serve the residents.

    Very wise re: UCSB, no concerned parent should ever let a child go there.

  • Ted D

    Tom – “ted, on ploitics I bet you and I are on the same page”

    Then I extend my condolences to you as I did to Cooper. A high level outlook would be something like:
    1 part economic conservative – I agree with the Republican party in regards to small government and little government control.
    1 part libertarian – I tend to lean libertarian when it comes to individual rights and liberty.
    The rest is a bit of a mix of things, but mostly conservative.

    So, to the Republicans (and the real Bible thumpers) I’m off the reservation because of my stance on individual freedoms and keeping religion out of government. And to the lefties I’m crazy because I believe in small government and free markets. Most of my family has very conservative moral values (from being old school Roman Catholic) but lean VERY far left in economics and politics in general, because most of them are former mill workers and due paying union members. I’m of the opinion that the union killed the steel industry in the US, and there are no current unions that do any good for the employees as they are all mostly lobbying organizations these days. Not a popular view in my family. LOL

  • Escoffier

    Re: “committment” in college, this is a place where I differ with Susan.

    What does it really mean? Let me draw from my own experience. I had a few short term GFs in college and then one long relationship that lasted not quite the entire college experience but for most of it, and right up through graduation. We were “committed” in that we were exclusive. Very much “a couple” and everyone knew it. Did stuff together all the time, went on short trips, etc.

    However, after graduation, we broke up. Not that committed, eh? Of course, the relationship was much better for both of us that hookup would have been. I’m not arguing that. But was it better than being alone? That’s harder to say.

    Here I have to get a little personal. I think it was “good” for me in that I certainly enjoyed at the time and got a lot out of it. However, to be completely honest, I can’t say it was necessarily “good” for her. Oh, she certainly was happy while it lasted.

    But (and I will leave it to you, Susan, to judge whether or not this makes me a cad) I realized after a while that we wanted different things. She wanted to stay in NorCal and become an elementary school teacher. I wanted to go to grad school out of state and live in NY or DC or both and pursue various ambitions. I won’t say that I lied to her about any of this or didn’t tell her. But I did stay with her even when some part of me knew that there was an expiration date on the relationship. At one point, shortly after I had moved east, she even came to visit me to look at a nearby education school in a place where she knew absolutely no one other than me and that, frankly, was not that great a school for her. She was willing to move there solely to be with me. My recollection is sort of hazy on how it all went down but it didn’t happen because I discouraged it.

    There is no question that she would have married me, either right then or later had I made her wait but stayed together with her as BF-GF, either long distance or had she moved east. She was “committed.”

    I never saw her again after that visit. I know people who have run into her in restaurants and they say that she is, in fact, an elementary school teacher in her home town. She married a guy, if I am may be immodest, who is 10 years older than me (we were the same age) and quite a bit lower in SMV. She apparently dislikes me a great deal, as you can imagine, and gets upset when someone brings up my name in front of her.

    For my part I have rather fond memories of her and I wish her well.

    Now, was that relationship really good for her in the long run? I can say this, it’s not something I would want for my daughter. I don’t think it was “committed” in any meaningful sense beyond exclusivity for the duration, which was finite by one party’s choice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I don’t think you were a cad in that relationship, unless you listened to her prattle on about what your kids would look like and never said a word. In this SMP, every woman in a college relationship has to know the odds are very strong against its lasting. I think many women do embrace denial, but that’s on them. If a guy of 20 or 21 isn’t telling you it’s forever, you’d have to be insane to put all your hopes on him. In fact, the form that most of these breakups take – often mutual and amicable – is that the two will keep an open mind about coming back together if ever given the opportunity. I know that sounds very unlikely, and it is, but that is what my son and his high school gf did. It happens.

      I’m not arguing this is ideal. I am simply observing that puberty is arriving earlier, marriage is coming later, and people will get together in the 15 years between the two, and not always with a future spouse. Full stop. How they do that is what’s up for discussion. Some would prefer early marriage instead of LTRs. I don’t. I actually believe that LTRs can be beneficial for both parties even when they don’t end in marriage.

      It’s up to individuals to draw the lines where they choose re past sexual and relationship histories. It’s complicated, and I don’t see it getting any less so. In fact, with the gender imbalance in college enrollments, I believe we’ll see marriage delayed further and the marriage rate continue to decline overall.

  • Ramble

    Escoffier, you did not say why you broke up with her. I mean, you seem to know fairly early on it would not last. Why?

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – ” ow, was that relationship really good for her in the long run? I can say this, it’s not something I would want for my daughter.”

    I would rather my daughter go this route than hooking up, hands down. Do breakups suck? Yep. Do they hurt like hell? Most of the time. Yet I still see your story as the lesser of two evils if we all agree that these young adults will have sex one way or the other.

  • Escoffier

    1) I wanted to move away and she didn’t.

    2) Even if she had moved for me for grad school, I still wanted to keep moving and purusing various high-pressure endeavors which would have (and did) take me to NYC and DC and she wasn’t up for that either. She might have done it but only for me.

    3) She was, to be completely blunt, too dumb and too dull. My mother told me that from the beginning but it took me well over a year before I accepted it myself.

    FTR, I didn’t know early on that it wouldn’t last. Early on I was convinced it would last forever. What I said (or meant) was that after I while part of me figured out that it wouldn’t last but I managed to suppress that knowledge in my frontal lobe so that we could continue dating at least through college, which was to my advantage but not hers. Call it my hamster.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She was, to be completely blunt, too dumb and too dull. My mother told me that from the beginning but it took me well over a year before I accepted it myself.

      OK, then what about the rest of college? Did you stay with a boring bimbo for the sex?

  • Abbot

    ” Despite what they say, most women aren’t built to deal with the aftermath of a one-night stand”

    Who is “they” and why do they say these things? Do “they” like to hurt women?

    http://www.stlamerican.com/entertainment/living_it/article_1f36eaa0-b5d6-11e1-a317-0019bb2963f4.html

    Still want to commit to a woman who treats her sexuality this way, the obviously always-willing dude walking around your neighborhood gloating at her notwithstanding?

  • Escoffier

    Ted, I stipulated that it’s better than a hook-up. Way better.

    That’s not the question. The questions are,

    1) Is it better than being alone and waiting for a real committment?

    2) Is it better than early marriage?

    3) Is it good simply?

  • Escoffier

    “the obviously always-willing dude walking around your neighborhood gloating at her”

    This is an important point that I don’t think we dudes have adequately explained to the ladies. There are not many worse things than running into another guy whom you know has banged your girl. The only way the sting might not be so bad is if he was some beta you stole her from. But if it’s a leering alpha ONS, it just feels like shit. Another reason to avoid sluts.

  • Ramble

    There are not many worse things than running into another guy whom you know has banged your girl. The only way the sting might not be so bad is if he was some beta you stole her from. But if it’s a leering alpha ONS, it just feels like shit.

    The converse to this can feel great.

    I was once out with a girl when some “Alpha” came over, obviously looking to AMOG me.

    After he started chatting her up in front of me, I soon sat down, right next to them, and, with a very slight smirk, started feeding him information as to how inadequate I was (i.e. tiny dick, incapable of getting or sustaining an erection, crying during sex [in those few occasions that I could get a hard-on]).

    You should have seen the look on his face.

    My girl loved it. At one point I told her to stop smiling at me and pay more attention to the dude trying to chat her up. He left right after that.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “1) Is it better than being alone and waiting for a real committment?
    2) Is it better than early marriage?
    3) Is it good simply?”

    1. tough question. It would at least provide some experience being in a LTR, but if being alone wouldn’t be too traumatic, I’d say stay alone and keep your pants on.
    2. Yes. Early marriage seems to be clearly more likely to end in divorce.
    3. Again, tough to answer. I still say yes, because it is time spent IN a relationship. IF indeed a life goal is to marry and start a family, it still counts as “practice” towards that goal.

    “This is an important point that I don’t think we dudes have adequately explained to the ladies. There are not many worse things than running into another guy whom you know has banged your girl.”

    Absolutely. By far one of the worst “gut” feelings I’ve ever experienced.

    Ramble – LOL. Way to knock him off his “game”!

  • Ramble

    Susa, that might be a little harsh to call some girl a Bimbo knowing that:
    1.) Her N in college was likely quite low
    2.) She wanted to get married and fulfilled that, and
    3.) Pursued a respectable profession and succeeded at that

    Just because some girl is not particularly bright, does not mean that she is some dumb slut.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Does the word bimbo imply promiscuity? I thought it referred strictly to intelligence. Apologies if I’m wrong, she sounds like she was 100% focused on Escoffier.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I think that, at a minimum, I let her believe what she wanted to believe well after I privately concluded something else. You once accused me of breaking another girl’s heart. I’m sure I didn’t in that particular instance, but I’m pretty sure I did in this one. I just don’t see how she was better off for it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      You have such a self-deprecating manner, but it obscures your true history as a heartbreaker. ;)

  • Abbot

    “But if it’s a leering alpha ONS, it just feels like shit. Another reason to avoid sluts.”

    This is the one avoidance-reason that promiscuous women and their feminist advocates have not devised a shaming-tactic for. Because they can’t.

    Lets see…hypocritical? No, can’t use that.
    How abouuut, um…immature? Nope, does not apply.
    Or the bigee they love to use – insecure. Well, they would fear using that because they know damn well their own feeling upon seeing your prior girlfriends

    Avoiding sluts works on soooo many levels thus its a no brainer.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, she was not a bimbo. Far from it. A vey girly girl, into baking, loved kids, wanted a family, wanted to stay close to her own family (whom she saw all the time, with me much of the time). She just was not that smart or intellectually interesting.

    I had a sort of “great books” awakening when I was in college and started really devouring all kinds of very heavy books. She was not into it at all and I couldn’t talk to her about any of that. I also revived my interest in classical music and started listening to it all the time and playing duets with my best friend and even playing in the student orchestra. She was not really into that either. I got dissatissfied with her limitations.

    She did like my cooking, though, and I liked her baking.

    Susan, this was all a long time ago but I think you would recognize her type and be sympathetic to her. She had done some (very limited) hooking up in HS and had been burned by it. She was quite ashamed of it. When I met her, she had been chaste–no sex, no BFs, no dates, nothing–for at least two years. Her N was far too low to call her a slut but it was all causual or at best something she hoped would grow into more but the guy wasn’t interested. When I met her she basically was what we would term today a born-again virgin. She learned her lesson about casual sex the hard way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      I got dissatissfied with her limitations

      That’s very much how I felt about my college bf, and why I ended the relationship. I think that’s normal and healthy. Dating is shopping. In our society, we marry for love, and it makes sense to date and test compatibility. People change a lot between the ages of 18 and 25, which is why teenage marriages often fail. Sometimes people grow up together, but often they grow apart. Considering the frontal cerebral cortex isn’t even fully mature until the age of 21, it’s hardly surprising.

  • Cooper

    “I think that, at a minimum, I let her believe what she wanted to believe well after I privately concluded something else . . . . I just don’t see how she was better off for it.”

    That’s because she wasn’t.

    I wasn’t going to say anything, but in this quote:

    “Now, was that relationship really good for her in the long run? I can say this, it’s not something I would want for my daughter. I don’t think it was “committed” in any meaningful sense beyond exclusivity for the duration”

    I thought the correct phrasing would have been: “I don’t think *I* was “committed” in any meaningful sense beyond exclusivity for the duration.”

  • Escoffier

    Well, I was, until I wasn’t. That’s the point. She was until the end.

    That’s the danger of these serious pre-marriage LTRs. They are, in every way but one, like a marriage. That one exception however is a big deal.

  • Ramble

    Does the word bimbo imply promiscuity?

    Yeah, I thought it did.

    But, even if it doesn’t, it is still disrespectful, and I am guessing that this girl was a genuine girl.

  • Cooper

    @Escoffier
    “Well, I was, until I wasn’t. That’s the point.”

    That’s a point? So what! That’s like a cheater saying: “I was faithful, until I wasn’t”

    You say yourself that you knew that you allowed her to believe the relationship was going to last longer than you came to realize. What are looking for? To be excused for allowing her to believe what she wanted, cause you didn’t verbally mislead her?
    Isn’t “not clarifying the difference in each others plans” that you recognized, the same?

  • Tom

    esco
    This is an important point that I don’t think we dudes have adequately explained to the ladies. There are not many worse things than running into another guy whom you know has banged your girl. The only way the sting might not be so bad is if he was some beta you stole her from. But if it’s a leering alpha ONS, it just feels like shit. Another reason to avoid sluts.
    ____________
    dude, I dont feel that way and neither do my friends. Its another reason to avoid in YOUR eyes. The truth comes out.
    I rest my case. I know you dont want to hear ‘it” so I wont go there.
    That is what Im talking about different points of view, concerning my alpha past and your beta life If I were to feel that way I would be admitting to myself that he was better somehow than me. I`m not made that way. Most athletes dont think that way. That the best way to get defeated.

  • Ramble

    Coop,
    Escoffier is asking if he was a “cad”. He is not attempting to get you to see his actions as the “right” ones. That is, if I understand him.

  • Tom

    esco
    This is an important point that I don’t think we dudes have adequately explained to the ladies. There are not many worse things than running into another guy whom you know has banged your girl. The only way the sting might not be so bad is if he was some beta you stole her from. But if it’s a leering alpha ONS, it just feels like shit. Another reason to avoid sluts.
    ____________
    dude, I dont feel that way and neither do my friends. Its another reason to avoid in YOUR eyes. The truth comes out.
    I rest my case. I know you dont want to hear ‘it” so I wont go there.
    That is what Im talking about different points of view, concerning my alpha past and your beta life If I were to feel that way I would be admitting to myself that he was better somehow than me. I`m not made that way. Most athletes dont think that way. That`s the best way to get defeated.

  • Escoffier

    No, quite the opposite. My point is twofold:

    1) The idea that the college boyfriend/pre-marriage LTR is good or at least harmless for people is not true.

    2) The game/manosphere insistence that it’s the men who get hurt and the women have only themselves to blame for what happens to them is also not true.

    Susan & Ted are saying that these LTRs can be “growth experiences” or whatever. Maybe that’s true in my case, maybe not. However, it’s certainly true that I came out of it OK and she didn’t.

  • Escoffier

    Tom, that’s the second time in two days you’ve basically used the “You can’t get laid” snot-bomb on me. You sure you’re not a chick?

  • Escoffier

    ramble, at the time of the break up and for years afterward, I felt about it as Susan does now. It was just a break up, we weren’t married, people break up all the time, nothing wrong on either side, it’s just part of life.

    Years later, I read an article by an older woman giving advice to college girls. I forget the author but the gist was Avoid the “college marriage”, ie, don’t get exclusive with some guy and be to him in every respect but one a wife and assume it’s leading somewhere when in fact he has not promised you anything. It read, uncomfortably, almost identical to my own life.

    Now, even years later, thinking this all through again in light of what we talk about here, I really wonder about the value of these relationships, especially to the girls.

  • Tom

    The difference in most people is how they think. Some people let their thoughts control them and some people learn to control their thoughts, thus controlling their emotions.
    You`d think the brainiacts would know this..
    It IS what separates the good athlete from the great. It applies to life as well.

  • Tom

    You sure YOU arent a chick?..If what you got out of my words is “you cant getr laid” then you are dumber than I thought

  • Tom

    esco decent looking betas get laid all the time. But for someone to let other men intimidate them in a social setting must be a distressing way to go thru life.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My girl loved it. At one point I told her to stop smiling at me and pay more attention to the dude trying to chat her up. He left right after that.

    Heh great resource. Nothing disarms a cad/player like someone disarming their best weapon in front of them, not a chance they can recover from that in any good advice. If you had seen the movie 8 Mile is sort of like that and I loved that ending. :)

    Just because some girl is not particularly bright, does not mean that she is some dumb slut.

    Yeah I agree Susan jumped too fast on calling her names (cattyness?) she was not bright enough for Escoffier but it doesn’t mean that she was not bright or stimulating enough for someone else, this are usually personal standards and she managed to fulfill her personal goals, she actually reminds me to Deti’s Summer on that aspect, YMMV.

    That’s the danger of these serious pre-marriage LTRs. They are, in every way but one, like a marriage. That one exception however is a big deal.

    I think you are projecting male feelings into this, if she hates you that is good it means that probably she learned to avoid guys like you that commit because is convenient but will balk as soon as its not and learned to ask the hard questions before things got too serious and you already mentioned that she hated hooking up that feeling helped her to avoid the casual college scene so hate for her is a good thing. She might had not learned that lesson and got into another no future relationship later on and not marry at all. Maybe for men hating is such an extreme feeling that only the worst experience will bring it on and scar them forever, for women hate is just one more thing on the repertoire of feelings there is a particular shape of dress that I skip in magazines or catalogs just because I hate it so much, is a silly thing but I think is just the way women are wired, don’t sweat it, I’m sure she is happy now and move on and learned something valuable for that relationship, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sorry you got mad I called EScoff’s gf a bimbo. :P The definition is attractive but empty-headed young woman. I guess that’s marginally worse than Escoff calling her dumb.

  • Escoffier

    Tom, your reading comprehension is as ever not great. The question is not whether the man intimidates one in a social setting, it’s simply a matter of the gut reaction most men have to personally run across someone who banged their girl. Even if you can intimidate the hell out of him or even beat him up, for most of us (I know, not you!) it’s a lousy feeling.

    In any event, far more depressing for me would be to be stuck with some slut and have to run across her former paramours all the time and actually be indifferent to it. I would take that as a sign of a dead soul.

  • Abbot

    “some people learn to control their thoughts, thus controlling their emotions.”

    Now, why would any sensible sane upstanding man who is already working with a complex task [dating a woman] subject themselves to adding such complexity to their life unless they had no choice or were forced to. Makes no sense at all.

    Avoid the situation altogether – men who know all her intimate details and privacy [just too much out there], a played out sexuality that cannot be put on a pedestal, being one link in a long chain, the personal discomfort and on and on…

    Avoidance works on soooooooo many levels! Treat yourself with and to dignity.

  • Abbot

    “run across her former paramours all the time and actually be indifferent to it. I would take that as a sign of a dead soul.”

    Men who have personal dignity and pride typically avoid commitment to sluts as they are not fitting companions.

  • Abbot

    “let other men intimidate them in a social setting must be a distressing way to go thru life.”

    The “other” man is the clear winner. He is not the sucker who made the commitment and he knows it. Did grandpa ever have to consider such an overwhelming DISGUSTING situation? Do women even realize the crap they are setting up just a few short years from now?

  • Travis

    “Men who have personal dignity and pride typically avoid commitment to sluts as they are not fitting companions.”

    I would add, any sense of what it means to be a man. Men are wired to be territorial about their mates. IMO, any guy who can hang out with a dude whose banged a woman he cares about, and not feel territorial or uncomfortable in any way has been completely emasculated. Amanda Marcotte would be proud of you, Tom…

    “Do women even realize the crap they are setting up just a few short years from now?”

    No.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, that’s a case of the girl having incomplete information. She did the best she could under the circumstances of you not telling her that you weren’t truly in love with her and didn’t want to be comitted to her forever.

    It would not have been necessarily better if she stayed single the whole time, but no one can really know. There are plenty of other cases similar to yours where the guy is in love with the girl, they stay together for years after graduation, and then got married and had a long history.

    Given that you at least had a clean break and didn’t continue to string her along after graduation, and she married and had a family, I don’t think it left her worse off per se. You never really know though. I had failed serious LTRs, but I am way over them now. My husband is the love of my life.

  • Ramble

    Hope, I am guessing that she never said this to Escoffier:

    “E, I absolutely want to get married and have children one day. And, I am not saying it has to happen now, but, I love you and I want to know what your thoughts are on the subject. Take some time to think about it and get back to me.”

  • Escoffier

    As it happens, her roomate had a college BF much like I was to her and they DID end up married and, AFAIK, they still are.

    Ramble, no, she never said it that bluntly. She didn’t put me on the spot quite like that.

  • Abbot

    “any guy who can hang out with a dude whose banged a woman he cares about, and not feel territorial or uncomfortable in any way has been completely emasculated. ”

    At this point, only men can save women. But will they? Can they say no to her need for sex in order to save her from herself? By accommodating their sexual needs on the fly, men have created a situation whereby men do not want to accommodate her relationship needs. Can men break this vicious cycle by taking on the gatekeeper role, at least temporarily?

  • Escoffier

    Susan, no, not really. I do think, in all honesty, I broke this one’s heart. I think we both, after a while, wanted different things from the relationship and we both chose not to clarify that or to ask for clarity because neither one of us wanted it to end. I didn’t want it to end just then and she didn’t want it to end at all. She probably didn’t put me on the spot for fear of getting an answer she didn’t want to hear.

    I can think of only one other instance where I possibly broke a heart. That one’s a tough call, in that she was a total clinger and was basically ready to profess undying love on date three or so and I was like “whoah.” I mean, I know she was upset when I broke it off, but I don’t see how anyone could have been REALLY in love that soon. Very silly girl. I don’t feel the least bit guilty about that one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      How about the really hot chick from the summer job?

  • Escoffier

    Hope, not exactly.

    I was genuinely in love with her at first and for at least a year, probably more like 18 months. After that, roughly another 18 months, I was still very happy with her. It’s not like I ever conciously told myself “This ain’t gonna work.” But I did start doing more things without her and planning a future in which I gave her basically no consideration. It was only when she made noise about moving across country to be with me that I finally explicitly said, to myself and her, “Yeah, no, I don’t want that.” But in hindsight I realized it internally long before.

    To the extent that she had incomplete information, part of the problem was, she never demanded one from me. I don’t think I was capable of lying to her and promising to marry her knowing that I wouldn’t. So had she said “Are you going to marry me or what?” I either would have had to soul-search and say no, or just buckle under and say yes. Hard to say what I would have done.

    The point is, by Susan’s standards, she lived up to “no sex before monogamy/committment.” But she still lost. Which is why I am not so sure that this arragement is so great. I mean, clearly it’s fine for whoever does the dumping, not so much for the dumped.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, she was not a moron but middling at best and after a certain point I realized that I wanted genuinely “smart.” And not only that but also someone interested in my core interests, which she wasn’t. But she had good character and a good heart and she worked hard. Her father was a bit of a drinker, not a raging drunk or anything but he drank himself tipsy (or past) just about every day and it embarassed her to the point that she was super careful with alcohol, one glass of wine with a meal, tops. All that came from inside her, her parents could not have cared less if she drank a case.

  • Ted D

    Tom – “That is what Im talking about different points of view, concerning my alpha past and your beta life If I were to feel that way I would be admitting to myself that he was better somehow than me. I`m not made that way. Most athletes dont think that way. That the best way to get defeated.”

    I don’t see it like that. Look, some guy that tagged my SO for a ONS isn’t “better” than me in the least. Shit, if it was a real ONS, she probably didn’t get to know him well enough to even know if that is true. What it does is make me look at my SO as a piece of ass, because to him that was all she was worth. And frankly, I don’t like thinking about the people I love in such nasty terms. It is a reminder that some guy used the person I love as a cum dumpster, and she allowed it to happen, which in a way means that SHE only viewed herself as a cum dumpster as well.

    It has ZERO to do with how I feel about myself. Shit, I consider myself a better man simply BECAUSE I’ve never used a women strictly for sex. I’m not saying I don’t have my share of confidence issues, but it has nothing to do with my lack of confidence when confronted with a manwhore, and everything to do with being visually reminded that my SO allowed herself to be used by some douche.

    (to be clear, I’m not talking about my actual SO here. It has been brought to my attention that I am not clear when I am speaking philosophically and/or from my own experiences.)

    Travis – “I would add, any sense of what it means to be a man. Men are wired to be territorial about their mates. IMO, any guy who can hang out with a dude whose banged a woman he cares about, and not feel territorial or uncomfortable in any way has been completely emasculated. Amanda Marcotte would be proud of you, Tom…”

    I agree with this, but wanted to point out that for me this isn’t always so. I have met my SO’s ex-husband, and I found that I’m completely OK with him the few times we see him a year. But, at least for me, I think it has something to do with knowing that at some point her ex cared about her enough to marry her. What bothers me far more is knowing a guy ONLY remembers my SO as a great piece of ass, if he remembers her at all. I don’t have a problem knowing other men have loved her, and meeting those men doesn’t bother me in the least.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, girls don’t talk like that though (you’d make a terrible girl, no offense :P). I’d never use the lines you suggested, because that would be way too blunt.

    But maybe she would ask, “Do you love me?” Or maybe she would exclaim, “I love you so much, and I want to be with you forever!” Or maybe she’d mention how she thinks about their future together.

    I’m not saying Escoffier is a bad guy though. I’ve broken hearts, too. Sometimes the compatibility and/or passion is just not there.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I agree that dating is shopping but I would say that sex is tantamount to buying. I mean, I dated a number of girls whom I did not have sex with and no doubt in my hormonal state I would have loved to nail all of them. Good for them for playing their cards right and refusing. It’s not like had one of them spread for me I would have married her so I don’t see how they lost.

    As for the hot chick from the summer job, I am certain I did not break her heart. Her SMV was way higher than mine in every way, plus she outclassed me socially. She was tall, blonde, hot, a Delta Gamma (back then the most prestigious house on campus), from the very best part of Los Gatos, older than me, and just a real BWOC. I was a summer fling for her to help her get over her HS boyfriend whom she had recently dumped. (She REALLY broke his heart.) Once the summer was over and all her Greek friends came back to school, my days would have been numbered. I still don’t know what she saw in me.

    As it happens, that was the same summer I got together with the long-term GF, and once I found her I never looked back.

  • Alias

    Escoffier:
    “To the extent that she had incomplete information, part of the problem was, she never demanded one from me.”
    ——–

    This is what Hope’s referring to. The girl needed the answer to this waaay before the 18 months.
    This is the problem with young people seeking out relationships on their own without their family’s support. Did she involve her family?
    Because it’s more likely that her parents would’ve asked you early on about your intentions and she would’ve saved herself a lot of heartache.
    For young people who can’t rely on family, then they need to find other ways to get right to this.

  • Ramble

    Ramble, girls don’t talk like that

    I understand that. I am not recommending that girls, or guys, always follow their instincts or always speak in a manner that is most natural to them.

    For instance, think of how many guys are insensitive when they argue, and they need to learn how better to phrase things.

    you’d make a terrible girl, no offense

    I am greatly offended.

    But maybe she would ask, “Do you love me?” Or maybe she would exclaim, “I love you so much, and I want to be with you forever!” Or maybe she’d mention how she thinks about their future together.

    I can’t cosign this.

    It is not enough. He very likely did love her. And the “forever” one is can easily be interpreted as a girl in love being very sweet.

    I am not necessarily talking about what happened in Escoffier’s day, but, today, young women have lost some power in the Marriage Market and need to be much more explicit in their desires.

    And, in complete honesty, I am not even a huge fan of, “Escoffier, where is this going?”.

    In our modern age, if girls keep on insisting on being vague, they are playing with fire.

    So, again, I would have recommended, “Escoffier, I absolutely want to get married one day and I want to know your thoughts on that. Please think about it and get back to.”

    Hell, in this example, she is not even saying that she wants to marry him, even though that is implied. So, she still gets some of her female indirectness.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Escoffier, now that you’ve clarified, you didn’t lie to her in any real sense. You were both just young and not very self-aware. I still don’t see how it makes her decisions wrong, since as you said that her roommate got married to her college boyfriend. She very well could have had a shot, if you weren’t so exceptionally smart and demanded the same in a mate.

    The ideal might be to have her first LTR work out perfectly, the way it did for the roommate and college boyfriend, but failures are inevitable in an imperfect world. I think as Ted D points out, it is better for guys to know that a girl had been in a serious LTR and gave it her best effort, than to know that she didn’t really care who had access to her body and that any trashy guy could walk in and have a sample.

  • Escoffier

    Alias, her family was of no use to her at all. I mean, they were very nice people. I liked them a lot. I ate dinner at their house or in the city with them dozens of times. I travelled with them to their cabin at Yosemite more than once. I hunted with her dad. They were just great people.

    But no, not once did they even hint that I owed them some explanation about “where it was going.” If they ever said a word to her about it, she never told me. No, I think they were doing what was common for the time, be cool about everything and not be old fashioned about it because, legally, she was an adult and it was none of their business. I’m sure that was their mindset.

    They liked me a lot and they bear me no ill will. Not that I have seen or talked to them in 20 years but a friend saw them at a restaurant and he reported back that the mother asked about me and said something like “I really liked him” and the daughter (my ex) got quite pissed at her mom. For disloyalty one presumes.

  • Cooper

    @Ted D #682

    “It doesn’t matter where you’ve been, – - – as long as it was deep, yeah” – The Cars “Just what I Needed”

    It’s always the way I’ve seen things.

  • Escoffier

    Hope, once again, I agree, much better to live as she had than to go through college as a hookup slut.

    Her decisions were wrong in that they didn’t get her what she wanted in the long run. Like I said, she was happy at the time but she got her heart broken, something she could have avoided had she forced me to clarify and, more important, had she waited. I just don’t see how the whole thing was a net benefit to her.

    This reminds me of the game debate about whether alphas leave their flings better off after they dump them. Not to suggest that I am or ever was an alpha, I will state very clearly that I am not and never was. But anyway, some gamers say the experience is itself so profound and transcendant for the girl that of course she’s better off. Roissy says no, that the heartbreak is too painful in the memories too bittersweet, with an emphasis on bitter. I think Roissy is right.

    At best my ex had a great time for three years, as I am sure she did. Does she look back on it the same way I do? Undoubtedly, she does not.

    Hope, IIRC, you did in college essentially the same thing she did, a de facto “college mariage” the main difference being that you were the dumper, not the dumped. Yet even you have said that if you could take it back and start with your husband you would. Well, imagine how it feels for someone who got dumped rather than did the dumping?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, okay, the vague sweetness isn’t going to work. I can understand that.

    Some of the phrasing I have used involved hinting I liked his last name and wanted to take it. I was very forthright with my husband and told him I thought about marriage with him, and he responded very positively.

    But I wouldn’t have used the “think about it and get back to me” part, no way. That makes it sound really heavy and not very lovey. Turns it into a “think about this business decision” sort of deal, at least to me.

  • Sassy6519

    Can they say no to her need for sex in order to save her from herself?Can men break this vicious cycle by taking on the gatekeeper role, at least temporarily?

    I imagine that if a large amount of men started turning down women for sex, the sales of Haagen Daz and Ben & Jerry’s would skyrocket.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Cherry Garcia please.

  • Alias

    Ramble:
    “In our modern age, if girls keep on insisting on being vague, they are playing with fire.
    So, again, I would have recommended, “Escoffier, I absolutely want to get married one day and I want to know your thoughts on that. Please think about it and get back to.”
    Hell, in this example, she is not even saying that she wants to marry him, even though that is implied. So, she still gets some of her female indirectness.”
    ————

    Is it possible that this is due to all of that “be nice” that so many say they got growing up? That must make it difficult for people to be more direct.
    I get the sense that people who got this grew up in very safe environment where everyone followed the rules. Am I right?

  • Ramble

    Hope, to be absolutely clear, the sweet things are still sweet.

    I am not arguing against girls melting guys hearts. But, if she is working towards something really important, she better know what she is doing, especially nowadays.

    re: think about it

    What I wanted to stay away from was needing him to answer immediately. That is bad. You want to give him some time to think about things. Feel free to come up with a better phrasing.

  • Ramble

    Is it possible that this is due to all of that “be nice” that so many say they got growing up?

    It’s certainly possible, but, personally, I don’t think that is what is happening.

    Girls, in general, prefer indirect, to direct. Generalities to specifics. Covert to overt.

    They like reading body language and facial cues.

    Girls, in general, do not like being really direct.

    Like so much else, this has it’s pros and cons.

  • Alias

    Escoffier:
    “her family was of no use to her at all”
    ——-
    That sums it up.
    Poor girl.

  • Alias

    Ramble:
    “Girls, in general, prefer indirect, to direct. Generalities to specifics. Covert to overt.
    They like reading body language and facial cues.
    Girls, in general, do not like being really direct.
    Like so much else, this has it’s pros and cons.”
    ———

    That’s exactly why girls should be pushed to be more direct instead of allowing them to go by their nature. Both genders should. It’s not in people’s best interest to not know how to speak up for themselves.

  • Alias

    Ramble:
    “Feel free to come up with a better phrasing.”
    ——–

    Stop by my parent’s house tonight, my dad will be cleaning his gun.

  • Ted D

    I just wanted to point out that I have treated all of my LTRs as described here as a “college marriage”. I never spent a day with a woman I didn’t believe I could marry at some point. If I made that determination I would have ended it. So perhaps this is why my views on LTRs is unusual. I believe they should be treated as the wind up to marriage or terminated. If the possibility of marriage is removed, there is no point continuing the relationship.