It is a man’s job to sexually escalate with a woman he is attracted to. As women control access to sex, he risks rejection in his quest to get it. Indeed, if women are appropriately discerning in their choice of sexual partner, most men will be rejected most of the time. Even hard core players confess to a 90% failure rate. Their strategy is based on volume rather than quality of approaches.
Many women feel entitled to audition would-be lovers very selectively. If they experience a lack of attention – no guy shows up to audition – they blame men. If a guy does show up but decides not to stick around, he’s a douche. That’s not reasonable. You have no right to call a guy a jerk just because he doesn’t like you. Maybe you need to be more likable, or maybe you’re not compatible despite the initial chemistry.
The problem with this sense of entitlement is that it creates total passivity on the girl’s part. You don’t have very good control of your dating life if you are always waiting for a call or hoping the perfect guy is going to see you from across the room and say to his buddy, “See that girl in the red dress? I’m going to marry her.”
Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.
A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. Women want emotional intimacy during sex, but they have sex before creating a foundation of emotional connection. Doing that work is your job, not his. If you hope for commitment, it makes no sense to leave it to chance, dreaming that a guy will fall for you based on your looks alone, or because you’re good in bed. A man will offer commitment when he is sufficiently emotionally invested to make the tradeoff to forfeit sexual variety. Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.
How to Escalate Emotionally with a Man
1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him.
Evolutionary psychologist David Buss surveyed American men to ask them which traits they consider most important for long-term mating. Out of 67 named traits, the number one priority for men was sexual faithfulness. (This is why guys are judgmental about your number – it’s a proxy for predicted future behavior.) Reader Lokland shared a valuable personal insight:
In the intial dating phase (say 6 months) the guy will be subconsciously (potentially consciously) looking for reasons to rule you out as a girlfriend.
One of those disqualifiers would definitely be trying to garner attention from other males. Call them faithfulness tests which utilize a pass-fail system initially.
Biologists believe that jealousy evolved as a way for males to prevent being cuckolded by other men. Jealousy reduces the likelihood that a woman will cheat. However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest.
Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way. Men at HUS have said repeatedly that they want a woman to be hard to get for everyone else and easy to get for them alone.
That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
Reader Hope shared some excellent ways that a woman can show genuine interest in one particular man.
- Ask him about the things he enjoys. Indicate that you’d like to try some with him.
- Show that you care about the big picture stuff, like his work or school, but take the time to check in on the day to day. How was work today? How did your interview go?
- Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side.
- Get to know as much as you can about his family and friends. Give him strokes for being good to his mom, or being close with his siblings. Express interest in meeting his friends.
You need to calibrate your level of interest to suit the progression of the relationship. Don’t get way ahead of him, just draw him out gradually from the start to make your interest in him as a person clear. As Hope said, there is a risk here:
The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /
This is where women risk rejection. You can minimize your risk by screening carefully for traits that indicate he is a good guy who is open to a relationship. As Hope pointed out in a comment, sociopaths don’t open up emotionally – if you’re showing clear signs of emotional investment and he’s holding you at arm’s length, drive on. Another warning sign is when his behavior is inconsistent. He’s warm and cuddly when the two of you are alone together, then you meet up in a group and he avoids eye contact. No bueno.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
One of the ways that women bond and establish new friendships is by revealing vulnerabilities to one another. When a woman shares a confidence or asks advice from another woman, she is signaling that she likes her, trusts her, and wants to increase the intimacy in the relationship. Often the other female will respond in kind. This works with men too.
It can be a problem you want to talk out, or a request that he help you put your IKEA furniture together. We all like to be needed, and we increase our emotional connection to others when we do kind things for them. He will probably like you more if you give him the opportunity to help you out.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
Men love to be appreciated for their efforts and for investing in a woman, including monetarily. Too often women take men for granted when it comes to paying, or doing them favors (see IKEA request above). Reader J shared some great suggestions:
I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:
1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
3. Give honest compliments.
4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.
5. Share a lust for life.
Hope again:
One thing that really gets guys going is a girl who is positive, full of life, and laughs a lot. A pretty girl smiling a genuinely happy smile as she looks into his eyes for a long time — that makes a man melt. I’ve never had a guy compliment me on my frown, but I have been told that my face lights up when I smile. A positive girl makes people around her feel more energized, which is very attractive. No needy, clingy, bitter, depressed or unhappy vibes.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.
Again, this is where the risk of rejection happens for women. That’s OK, because it’s your job in the mating dance. This is where you lead. Go out on a limb. Say what you need to say. This is the one that sealed the deal for me with my husband, by the way.
Reader Anacaona shared a great example of this. She had a strategy for meeting a man, and when she found one she liked, she made it very clear. Even though he was in another country, she made it easy for him to want to commit to her.
I was honest about how things were progressing for me. I sent the first message online, and in February when we had accumulated several hours online I sent him a Valentine. I think that made my husband feel more confident to pursue me further, especially because in the USA men are expected to give Valentines while it is more or less optional for women.
Also, I have high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remembered them and asked him a lot about them. I also asked him about his old girlfriends. This is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men, women in his past occupy a special place so sharing these important emotional milestones with him makes you special to him.
I never asked him for presents, except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times. He made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band. Once we decided he would come and visit, I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him.
As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like. This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.
BUT. You should also tell him that the throbbing between your legs is about to drive you insane, and that you look forward to keeping him up all night. Also, as we’ve discussed here many times, he is not going to want to wait if other guys haven’t. If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.
Although it’s obvious, it bears mentioning that there are ways to please him sexually as you become secure in his affection. Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock. He will reward you emotionally.
By the way, a lot of what’s described in this post is what men call femininity.
Each sex has a job to do in finding the balance between sex and commitment. Embrace your role and your responsibility from the start. Nurture the emotional connection from the moment you meet someone. It’s never too early.
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”since non-alpha men so readily exhibit “psycho” behaviors, they will tend to be receptive to the very “psycho” behaviors that women fear and alphas find irritating.”
I don’t understand that. What psycho behaviors – you mean a contradiction to the behaviors of the Alpha male?
The Alpha male is more likely to approach because he has more Testosterone than the average man, but the Alpha male has more of a reason to approach a woman since the ownership of physical traits deemed attractive by women(height, muscles, facial symmetric, great teeth etc) gives him a major advantage over the average man.
Could it be that women are also expecting the average male to approach them, as they’re always being asked out/flirted with/game’d by the Pua and by the Alpha male and thus, the women find it highly unnatural for a man, in this case the beta male, to be in his own private place and choosing to not approach women?
I know I’ve given the creepy vibe before, but I’m not sure if the woman perceived it as creepy because of my quick reaction to avoid her look as she noticed me looking at her, or if it was the lack of masculine characteristics.
I don’t really stare at women or invade their spaces . I mostly avoid their gaze and if they try to sell me something or give me a pamphlet or something, I usually pretend to not be there, but that has more to do with a lack of ”now I do this and that” like I’m the recipient of in a game like Max Payne 3 than in a lack of interest in chatting up the women.
On the other hand, I’ve been to places, like high-end shops, not looking like I’m wealthy, and the young women would rather approach me than the 6’3” 20 year old who looks like Cristiano Ronaldo and dresses as good.
I notice a lot of subtle staring(they’re looking at me from the corner of their eye), they pass so near me, I can smell their necks. They crouch low to fix something that doesn’t need to get fixed, giving me a view to their underwear, lol.
It could be that I stink. I take a bath every day of the week, and I put deodorizer in great amounts. I brush my teeth and I shave my face, rather presentable, I guess. I give the impression of having a job, i.e, I’m not like many of the young men my age, without a job. The clothes I wear are rather plain, my shoes are sturdy but nothing to admire. My body posture is slouched, as I got used to it while growing up. Nothing in me really screams ”Alpha” or ”Bad Boy.”
It could be that a large portion of the young women who are very feminine are into dudes who skinny and feminine-looking. Heck do I know.
I just don’t understand why the women don’t approach me if they are attracted to me. I do remember one instance that was the closest I’ve ever gotten to being approached by a woman.
A friend of mine invited me to go window-shopping with him. This guy is exotic. Half- Brazilian, Half Italian. He has the smoothness of the Italian dude and the looks and the height of the Brazilian man. 6’5”, 4 days a week in the gym. Cash in the bank, his own house, the works. At the age of 21. Family money. And I mean money. Gold mines and stuff.
We enter a shoe store. This very pretty half-white half-black young woman was the clerk. My buddy, as soon as we enter the shop brushes his elbow against my neck to look at the girl. I ignore him. He pulls me to a more secluded area of the shop and tells me that the girl was checking me out.
Of course I didn’t believe him. Every employee in that shop was top model looks, even the older women in their 40′s.
So, I don’t really pay attention to what he was saying to me, ” go talk to the girl. She’s pretending to be playing with the books, but she’s looking at you.”
”Nah, dude. Look at her. She’s easily 5’11” with flat shoes, I’m only 5’8”.
Past being annoyed by my friend, we finally pick an item and head to the clerk, the girl. She was blubbering, getting flushed, staring at me, looking at the ground. She got the prices wrong. When we were leaving, we passed the exit door, but the alarm went off; the girl had forgotten to remove the security thing from the shoes and she came at us giggly running, smiling and staring at the ground.
She apologized, I just froze there because I really didn’t know how to react to all of that, and we left.
Sure made me wonder what the hell is wrong with me. Or maybe the women really have bad sight LOL!
Thanks for the support, Kathy! I plan to keep doing what I’m doing. I’ve realized that if you change some nouns around, those blogs are indistinguishable from feministing and Pandagon. It’s the exact same mentality at work.
With apologies to the Bard:
..A poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
@VD
That makes sense. I didn’t even think of the creepy stalker vibe. As you say, that will definitely not work for men!
I do think that women reward loyalty, but it’s not a factor in sexual attraction. It’s critically important for long-term mating, obviously.
I just don’t understand why the women don’t approach me if they are attracted to me. I do remember one instance that was the closest I’ve ever gotten to being approached by a woman.
Because women don’t approach non-Alphas. Women only approach men to whom they are both attracted and consider to be of higher socio-sexual rank than they are. But they send indicators of interest to men they find potentially attractive whose socio-sexual rank they consider indeterminate. Your problem is that you are failing every test and demonstrating to them that you are of insufficient rank to merit their continued attention. If you directly approach the women as soon as they send you these various indicators of interest, you will likely find your fortune considerably improving.
Thanks VD, well said.
Michael, we are reading what you’re saying and drawing conclusion from it. It has nothing to do with you being damaged or a sense of superiority, your lack of strategy and even effort is what is hurting you. You hang out with a lot of alphas and therefore assume that since women do approach them, they will approach you just as well, that is simply not true (for men and women alike). Those wingmen should help you get access to alot of women, however it is not their role to do delivery. You have stand out and seal on your own. If you remove yourself out of the equation, you cannot be surprised if women don’t notice you.
@ms walsh:
Absolutely and this is why in my view your blog is better to discuss game than roissy/heartise, because you actually deal with what the science says as a first principle, and then you give your opinions takes on it. There is a real and very necessary distinction to be made between being a “manwhore” and preselection as i am suggesting which is a man who is mated to a woman of high(er) class. The fellas reading along should most definitely take note.
The events i attended with ms brown sugah and my experiences with her really opened my eyes to game and sociosexual dynamics playing themselves out in real time in modern day nyc. Much had been said about the bad overall nyc dating scene, and how bad it is for women in general; but i maintain that the real story is that the biggest losers on the nyc dating scene is the vast majority of men who get NOTHING and are the main ones who pickup the tab at the niteclubs bars concerts and the like. Nobody talks about it of course but trust me ive seen it firsthand how the vast majority of the guys roll into these venues and they rollout alone.
Also: that situation i told you about in the park? Whew!-i was sweatin bullets because i was in a heck of a spot-the venue was jampacked and i couldnt move outta the way; ms brown sugah was to my left and this other chick was slightly off to my left and in front of me so i was stuck.
My strategy: SAY/DO NOTHING. Eyes straightahead at the stage, firmly fixed on siddiq through my dark aviator shades. I could *feel* ms brown sugahs gaze on my like a laser beam-”what you gonna do?”-and sure enough thats what she told me she was thinking in that moment lol! I completely ignored the gal who hit on me, did absolutely nothing, didnt even look at her, no kind of interaction at all. It worked.
Whew.
O.
Susan, when you talk about high count guys you usually seem to use numbers like 50+. Now few are going to disagree that a guy’s a bad bet at that point. But how many get to that point? 1-2%?
There’s obviously a limit where promiscuity starts having diminishing returns on a guy’s social proof, but my opinion is that number is so high that all but a very small few will ever get to that point.
On a college campus, a guy with a rotating harem of a handful of attractive girls will be pre-selected by just about everyone, including most relationship-seeking girls too.
It seems like just about every social circle I’ve ever been a part of there’s always one guy who fucks a majority of the girls in that circle. The social proof obviously outweighs the negative stigma of promiscuity.
@ Jimmy Hendericks
Eh, I wouldn’t say that the effects of social proof are universal to all women. I’ll agree with you in saying that there is definitely a group of women out there who jump at the chance to snag a guy that is surrounded by other women. Some women even willingly enter soft harems with the intent of beating out the competition and acquiring the top spot.
Other women, myself included, see all that effort as a hassle. At some point, beating off other chicks to get to a guy isn’t worth it. I’ve never considered being a part of a soft harem because the idea is just too unsavory.
I actually have a very recent example of this. I was invited to attend a party this past weekend by a guy I met and acted with in a recent theatre production. He is very good looking and highly charismatic. It’s no surprise to me why lots of women find him attractive. He seemed to take an interest in me when we first met, and the sexual tension/flirtation between us was very strong. Things were progressing well, until I found out that he had a girlfriend. At that point, my thoughts of him changed. I was still attracted to him, but encroaching on someone else’s territory is not my MO in the least.
Anyway, I arrived at the party that night and was instantly given the catty “up and down” look by a woman at the party I had never met. She went out of her way to start talking to me, and it became very clear what her intentions were. She started asking me a multitude of questions regarding the guy in question. She wanted to know how I knew him, how long I’ve known him, and what my relationship to him was. This woman was not his girlfriend, considering that his girlfriend was across the country at the time, but her curiosity was nonetheless strange. She wanted to suss out the competition, in her mind. After I told her that the guy and I were just friends, she looked somewhat relieved.
She began to tell me that she had a crush on the guy and about how bummed she was that he had a girlfriend. I feigned sympathy for her and continued to drink my beer.
As the night progressed, I watched her actions, and I was extremely appalled. She flirted with the guy in question outright all night long. She asked to borrow his hoodie and followed him wherever he went. When he sat on a bar stool at one point in the night, she walked up to him and stood directly between his legs while placing her hands on his thighs. She kept touching him, and it was very apparent that she was throwing herself at him.
I know women like that exist, but it was just awkward to watch the events that unfolded that night. She knew he had a girlfriend, but she didn’t care. She threw herself at him shamefully, and I felt she was disrespecting the girlfriend.
At this point, some people would think that most women would jump at the chance to try to outdo her in order to snag the guy, but I’m not one of those women. I was rather sickened by the entire display, to be honest. I had met his girlfriend a few times, and she seemed like such a great woman. I couldn’t imagine disrespecting her by trying to snag her man. The fact that he allowed the other woman to be so flirty with him kind of soured my impression of him as well. He should have kept a respectful boundary between himself and the other woman, but he didn’t.
I do think social proof is attractive to women, but up to a point.
Those women whose political commitments (african-american and/or urban professional – with ground zero around 30-years-old) leave them more vulnerable to buying the bullshit of second-wave gender-indifferent feminism have recreated the madonna/whore complex in the other direction. They will escalate both sexually and emotionally with the player (whore) while behaving in what they perceive to be a traditional manner with the beta (madonna – obviously this applies, both then and now, only to those the pursuer has already identified as a good prospect) in hopes that this will lead to a traditional courtship.
There are several problems with this from both a male and female perspective:
(1) They often have only a rudimentary understanding of both the goals and methods of traditional courtship, in which the female role is one of talent scout who then becomes a crucial factor in developing her mate’s prestige.
(2) The assumptions behind the madonna/whore complex are predicated on base male drives and don’t translate well the other direction.
(3) Men and women of Susan’s generation figured out that madonnas make lousy wives anyway – i.e. there are better drives than the base ones.
Susan’s circle, both in her own generation and the rising generation with which she works, have been generally raised (above their base instincts) better than that so she has difficulty believing the accounts of those who see this happening.
Good men don’t chase whores however much they may gratify our base instincts because we’ve been raised to care about other things, likewise good women with players. Unfortunately avoiding whores/players alone is not enough. Developing lifelong loves takes affirmative steps that we’ve failed to adequately teach to the rising generation.
This post is a valuable first step in making that right.
80% women want to be with 20% of the men. They will wait for those men (20%) even if they have to be single forever. Women want what other women have. There is a reason why single women love married men. It is a challenge and wants what the other women has. If a guy walks into a party with his guy friends. Girls ignore him. If a guy walks with 1, 2 or more girls, every girl wants him. Plus hollywood controls what women want. Black, white, hispanic men is what every women wants. All others better have a charismatic personality. At the end women who cant keep men realize they need a personality rather than just a V to keep a man
Michael, you remind me of myself at your age. I was really no different – grew up in a poor family (well below the average income in 1983 with only one parent having regular work, and not well paying at that), had to work 30 hours a week all through college just to go to a no-name school for a comp sci degree. I was skinny, gangly, pale, broke, and game less. Not really a hit with the ladies. I can’t tell you how many experiences I had growing up like the one you just described.
The worst sting of all is how badly I was lied to. By everyone. Family, society, friends. Anti-game was especially drilled into my head by my old fashioned parents. I didn’t even lose my virginity until well into my 20s. If HUS and sites like it had been around when I was growing up (I was the first in my class to have a computer and internet access in 1994, which was sort of a desperate Hail Mary play for my future considering my parents’ financial status. But it paid off. Boy did it ever.)
With hard work, you CAN unlearn the pretty lies and see success. It’s something that had to come in time for me. It was actually Roissy that first opened my eyes, and I actually lurk here instead because the conversation is far more honest and realistic and not as nihilistic.
Time will pass. You will unlearn. You will grow stronger with each passing week, if you work for it, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps (and I can already tell you are.) I don’t exactly want to brag about my accomplishments, because they are pretty irrelevant, but they are at least significant enough for me to catch interest from women.
The only challenge for me now is how to actually want a relationship. After seeing such a stark divide in how I was treated by women before and after my success, it’s grown quite hard for me to trust one, which may be why I haven’t bothered dating in the last two years or so.
@Obs
I cannot tell you how refreshing this is and how much I respect it. You behaved in such a way that increased Brown Sugah’s respect for you. Roissy would have had you encouraging that woman to make BS jealous, which would have also humiliated and shamed her. This way, you got the benefit of preselection without causing trouble in your relationship. Win win.
@Jimmy
I actually don’t have a specific number in mind. I think a guy could come across that way if he hooks up with half a dozen girls in a month or two.
I believe it may have more to do with personality than success with women. The guys who go through women fast, whether in a harem or just sequentially, almost always behave terribly toward them. I’ve seen the friends of these guys say, “Yeah, he’s an asshole with women, I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my sister.”
Examples of bad behavior include:
pretending you don’t know her on campus come Monday
acting boyfriendy, with hand holding, etc. for a week or two, then bam – she doesn’t exist
saying “I really, really like you” just before disappearing forever without a word
drunkenly acting like a bro with the girl you’ve had sex with in the last month. “Hey, let’s partaaaaayyyy!”
etc. etc. I could give a few dozen examples.
I disagree that those guys will be preselected by just about everyone. The stigma of promiscuity + douchebaggery does contaminate those guys, in part because a girl’s friends will humiliate her for going there.
One of my favorite examples is Karen Owen of the Duke Fuck List. She was not attractive, the athletes she hooked up with were all in the shady frat, and were generally avoided completely by sorority girls at Duke. I’m sure those guys weren’t anywhere near 50 – in fact, most of them had fake girlfriends and hooked up on the side. To be in the top 2% of college males, they would only had to have had sex with 10 women by senior year. That was plenty to have them labeled “dirty.”
It’s not just a job, it’s an adventure.
“80% women want to be with 20% of the men. They will wait for those men (20%) even if they have to be single forever.”
That is simply not true, using Canadian statistics (which I would expect to be very similar to American statistics) http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2007/09/12/census-families.html:
49.9% of people over the age of 15 are married, 18.9% are in common law relationships, and it is reasonable to expect that a significant percentage (probably 10% to 20%) are in committed relationships. If 80% to 90% of women are in relationships there (obviously) is no evidence to suggest that 80% of women are fighting for the top 20% of men.
There are a wide variety of problems that are causing people to remain single, and unrealistic expectations is certainly a major issue for a lot of women, but the vast majority of women are finding acceptable men to pair up with.
Oops, the 18.9% for common law should be 15.5% (it surged 18.9%) … but still we’re talking about 75% or more women are in committed relationships
I’m sure I speak for many men by saying that’s the only one that really matters.
I think Hope has a lovely frown.
Anyway, I’d add caveats to that advice. Positivity is attractive, but not essential I wouldn’t say “No” needy-clingy-bitter-depressed vibes, as in none. Because then she might think she has to always be happy and positive in order to be loved and accepted. There are many women who were raised in environments in which their feelings were never validated.
As always, a balanced approach is best. Steady as she goes.
@ms walsh:
Thanks! Yeah after that along with a number of events that were similar to it, i came up with a name for such a scenario:
The kobyashi maru game sh*t test.
Anything BUT a “do nothing” stance was a “fail” no matter how you slice it-and i dont think i need to you how potentially heated things could have gotten between two black women right? Images flashed through my mind of having to appear before the judge on some vicious catfight stuff that i was at the center of…whew…
O.
I do think social proof is attractive to women, but up to a point.
Yes the preselection effect is not a sure thing. Is true that if a group of slutty friends find a man that is attractive they will probably end up all sleeping with him, but he is more like attractive to the herd not one woman in particular and that made the other interest if you ask around chances are the other women are very similar to the first one he got. Is like seeing women sharing designer labels, similar principle.
Lone women are usually not that influenced by the herd, they can be around but the her doesn’t define them, YMMV.
You know the old saying ‘actions speak louder than words’? Well, this is another classic example. Many (NOT ALL) women will SAY they want a nice guy who is respectful, loving, caring, open the doors for them, and all the other BS they’ll spout. But who do they give the ass to 99.99999999% of the time? The bad boy who never calls, doesn’t allow them to move in, who doesn’t compromise poker night with the boys to cuddle with her while watching some crappy dance show on FOX are the same ones bending their naked asses over couches every weekend. Then they go crying about how bad their asshole of a BF treats them despite the BJs and giving him sex 8 times a day to the, you guessed it, nice guy who’ll never get to find out whether they’re shaved or not.
If a nice guy’s reward is to one day get the former dimepiece who is now well past her prime and to help raise the three kids she had with some ex who dumped her on her ass, who’ll never respect him because they know that he’s only the substitute teacher, I’ll take being an asshole all day long. Nice guys should know that they’ll never, EVER match up to the guy who gave her the best 35 minutes of her life back in 1998. Truth be told, if she was ever to find that guy who gave her four orgasms on Facebook or MySpace, that’s the dude she’ll be screwing the next time he’s in town. Book it..
<bAt this point, some people would think that most women would jump at the chance to try to outdo her in order to snag the guy, but I’m not one of those women. I was rather sickened by the entire display, to be honest. I had met his girlfriend a few times, and she seemed like such a great woman. I couldn’t imagine disrespecting her by trying to snag her man. The fact that he allowed the other woman to be so flirty with him kind of soured my impression of him as well. He should have kept a respectful boundary between himself and the other woman, but he didn’t.
Cool story, bro…. Clearly you are not the type to have sex with him while he has a girlfriend, you will clearly wait until he tells you they’ve broken up before doing it. Thus you totally disproving the idea that most women are perfectly willing to have sex with promiscuous, socially-proofed men. Based on your obsessive behavior – yes, your close attention to the other girl is also indicative of obsession, if not as bad as hers – I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you are on his “call once I’m available” list.
And I tend to suspect you will answer that call. With great excitement enhanced by the exquisitely agonizing delay. No woman gets into a man’s bed faster than the woman who was interested in him when he was off the market. I once had three women I’d never dated call “just to say hey!” the day after I broke it off with a girl I’d been seeing for a while, while another girl, when told that my friend the Super Alpha had ditched his girlfriend earlier that day, practically sprinted towards him as soon as she heard the news. The best part was the reaction of her friends who saw her suddenly run off for no apparent reason.
“What the hell was that?”
“I just told her Billy’s single again.”
“OMG you did what? Why didn’t you stop her!”
“If a nice guy’s reward is to one day get the former dimepiece who is now well past her prime and to help raise the three kids she had with some ex who dumped her on her ass, who’ll never respect him because they know that he’s only the substitute teacher, I’ll take being an asshole all day long. ”
For the most part I wouldn’t say that this is true …
The combination of heavy drinking, drug use, smoking, excessive tanning, lack of sleep, promiscuity, and cosmetics eliminates most of the SMV that a large portion of party-girls/bar-stars have. You can see this by going to any dating website where there are tons of 30 year old girls who have a profile picture that looks like they’re 40 or 50 with a tag line “where have all the nice guys gone?”.
Women who have one young child (under 3) stand a chance of finding a guy, but when women have more children (especially by multiple fathers) or their children hit a certain age (9 or older) men avoid these women.
Certainly, there are a lot of promiscuous girls who do end up with a happily ever after; but the vast majority of these women are in the lifestyle for a very short period of time (a year or two) and do not go home with guys most nights they go out. The more promiscuous a woman is, the more of a negative impact it will have on her relationship prospects, and after enough damage has been done the best she can (really) hope for is to be taken home by desperate guys who will progressively get older, fatter and uglier as she gets older.
@vd:
Am i right that the “vd” may stand for “vox day”? Just curious.
Anyway youre wrong in your conclusion about preselection; theres just too much eviidence of it being a very real thing running in the other direction. Everyone from buss to mystery has validated the concept. Not to mention the arguably millions of men on the pickup scene alone whove seen it in action.
Oh, and everybody please dont fool yourself that only “sluts” get turned on by guys who already have gals-you will be seriously disabused of that notion with the quickness. I continue to be amazed by the stubborn ideology of some people…
O.
”49.9% of people over the age of 15 are married, 18.9% are in common law relationships, and it is reasonable to expect that a significant percentage (probably 10% to 20%) are in committed relationships. If 80% to 90% of women are in relationships there (obviously) is no evidence to suggest that 80% of women are fighting for the top 20% of men.”
And how many of those relationships are sexless? I know guys who’ve been dating their girlfriends for years and years and they’re still in the ”getting to know each other stage” aka, no sexual intimacy at all, LOL.
I’ve personally befriended more than 200 beta males, decent looking fellas who don’t act creepy, many of these guys have jobs, but in their ”relationships,” sex never happens, LOL.
On the other hand.. I know of very attractive women paying the rent of bad boys, Brad Pitts and PUA. I grew up with a girl, same age, she was fat as a pre-teen but to please her douchebag of a boyfriend she lost massive weight, becoming model material(but she’s short, though).
That dude tried to get in her pants for at least 3 years, she wouldn’t do it. She wouldn’t do anything resembling sex.
The dude was highly jealous of any perceived male competition; he made her drop all of her guy friends. When the girl asked me to go see what was wrong with her computer, he was stalking her house. He saw me in her room, although knowing that the girl was practically the sister I never had and tried to climb her window to kick my butt, lol.
2 days past that event he demanded of her, to end the relationship she had with me, the friendship. She said no and dumped him.
2 years after her 16th birthday she met a guy. Low-status male working as fish-seller. She moved in with him, and my family thought the guy was helping with the bills. Sure thing, LOL. She spent the last 2 years paying for his clothes, his food, his brothers education etc etc.
She eventually kicked him out when she realized the dude was never going to pull his weight. They still get together once in a while to have sex, but to think that this dude, who never had a job in his life, managed to have sex everyday with a woman who is rather attractive, seductive, sexual and takes care of her body and of her image to the mint.
The irony is that, her first boyfriend had a reason to be jealous. While growing up, the girl aggressively pursued me and ”sexually molested” me, and even when she had her last boyfriend, she told him to not be jealous because we are only friends, but she never missed or misses a chance to get a rise out of me; talking about sex, telling me that I want to bang her, showing me her lingerie and her sexy underwear, asking me how many chicks I’ve banged since last we spoke, showing me the dildo she uses and asking me the size of my penis, if it’s as big as the dildo she has etc, and basically acting highly sexual around me.
Of course I have never done anything with her, regardless of her single status. If she’s like this at will with her own sexuality, and if she’s attracted to me, she’d come onto me and ”do me.” The strangeness of it all is that, we live one street away from each other, she has my phone and my email adress etc, but she never gets in touch. It’s only when we happen upon each other or my mother decides to visit her mother that we are together and she never misses the chance to cock-tease me, lol.
I don’t know. If she uses me as an ego booster(doesn’t really have a reason for that), I think it’d be fair if I took her to my college and acted as if she was my girlfriend. I remember one time we went to the supermarket and every woman aged 16-50 had their eyes fixated on my every move.
They must’ve thought that she was my gf, rising my social status that way.
Maybe I’ll cut my masturbation and porn and go months without sexual release. Then I’ll go to her house and escalate the sexual innuendo into actual sex play. I’ll probably get slapped and branded with a sexual harrassment charge, LOL!
In economic terms, preselection is simply a high advertised price. Bidding one on particular guy drives his price up, simple as that. The man has many options from which to choose. I would argue that his having options is the DHV, not his exercising them.
By the way, though preselection does not work in quite the same way for women, it is still a DHV for a woman when all the men think she’s the hottest. To maintain it, it is essential that she not exercise her options, and certainly not with a male of lower SMV than herself.
”By the way, though preselection does not work in quite the same way for women, it is still a DHV for a woman when all the men think she’s the hottest. To maintain it, it is essential that she not exercise her options, and certainly not with a male of lower SMV than herself”
Quite true. A met a young woman who was older than me, she wasn’t exactly what you’d call hot, but she was always in high demand by Alpha males. She wanted to have a relationship with me because my social value when compared to her’s was sky high, but she thought that, talking about the many sexual partners she has had until then, and what they’ve done, was going to make me go into a frenzy ” I must have that!”
lol , didn’t work that way. I was highly attracted to her, just looking at her made my blood boil, but after the revelation of how loose her morals was(maybe she was loose down there too, LOL) made my intention to have a relationship with her, go away. Worse, I didn’t even want to hook-up with her, nor did I want to have a stand-alone make-out session.
Though, I had a classmate in high school, she was highly attractive, with a great bosom, but she was highly religious at the same time. Couldn’t find any attraction for her. Go figure LOL.
@Michael
http://marriagegems.com/2010/09/06/sex-stats-for-married-and-singles-how-do-you-measure-up/
“The average person in America has sex approximately 60 times a year, according to a study from the American Sex Survey ABCnews.com, The Kinsey Institute. Within every age group from age 18 to over 70 married people had more sex than singles …”
“Sexless” marriages are (almost always) exaggerations, and it is (often) a married guy who is unhappy because he is only having sex once a week. Many of the big-talking web-players would be lucky if they had sex half as often as that …
This was a tangent to the point I was making though. Essentially, at least 3/4 of women are entering into long term relationships that seem acceptable to them with partners who (obviously) could not be seen as “Alpha” males. The remaining women are single for a wide variety of reasons, extreme obesity probably accounts for 5% to 10% of these women, unrealistic expectations probably accounts for another 5% to 10%, single mothers of multiple children accounts for another 5%, and a large portion of the remainder are toxic she-bitches who either have personality or substance abuse problems.
Great post Susan (I think I said that already LOL)
This is the kind of stuff I’ve been looking for from the woman’s side: girl game!
For all the bitching and moaning I have done over the past year about how it isn’t “fair” that men have to initiate, blah blah blah, THIS is why I was kinda pissed. Tons of advice out there for men to get it right, but pretty much NO ONE else including sites “for woman” print this kind of stuff. Why? Because it goes against everything feminism fought for. A woman is supposed to be emotionally vulnerable with a man?! She is supposed to go “all in” first?! Act like a lady?!!! Yes, this is exactly the kind of stuff that will make a guy fall hard for a woman.
Here is the thing ladies: I for one would NOT expect you to walk around 24×7 emotionally open and vulnerable. Nor would I expect you to act overly submissive to every man on the street. BUT, and this is key to me, things are NOT the same in your intimate relationships. Don’t treat your BF/Husband like you would the rest of the men in the world. Consider him the exception to all the standard “rules” when it comes to dealing with men in a feminist way, and 50% of your work is done. There is nothing wrong with submitting to your mates leadership. It does NOT make you a “sellout” to your feminist sisters. It makes you a good mate!
And to me, it shows dedication to the relationship to act this way. I certainly treat my SO far differently than I do every other woman I deal with on a daily basis. Not to say I’m rude to the them, but they are external to my personal life, and external to my most intimate life (folks I know outside of work) and that means I keep them at a certain “emotional distance” for lack of a better term. My SO doesn’t deal with any of those layers of protection (what I usually call my “shields” and Liza seems to do the same.) Athol calls it the Princess Fiona treatment, and I’m sure there are many other names. But ladies, you need to do the same. Don’t interact with your man through all of those shields and layers of BS. Be open, honest, and direct, and he will reciprocate with his loyalty and love. If he doesn’t, then move on. Because I don’t know of a single guy (mind you I’m an old dude) that wouldn’t fall for this kind of treatment provided he was already interested in pursuing something long term. Me? This is like crack. My SO demonstrated most of Susan’s advice here early on, and I couldn’t help but be drawn to her because of it. I was just wrapping up my divorce, and honestly had NO intentions of trying for another serious relationship. In fact, at the time we met, I was “talking” myself into a life of casual dating and perhaps a long term FWB type setup, because I had very little faith in women at the time, and two kids to take care of mostly on my own. When I first met my current SO, she was a friend of my friend’s wife, and I was immediately “smitten” with her despite my efforts to the contrary. I just didn’t think it would be fair to her since my life was such a mess, and I didn’t want to trust any woman at that time. But, over the course of a few months, every time we saw each other she engaged me. In terms of your advice it went something like this:
1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him. – this didn’t come into play right away, but she did make sure to drop hints into the conversation that she wasn’t involved with anyone. As we started getting serious (which means I gave up holding out…) she again made it clear she didn’t have any plates spinning and had no desire to do so.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him. – We met through mutual friends, so she already knew I was in IT of some sort. But, in our early conversations when we weren’t comparing notes on divorce horror stories, she asked a lot about what I did with myself other than working on computers. In fact, she was genuinely (or appeared to be which is just as good LOL) interested in some of the work I was doing at the time in IT security. If nothing else, all this chat made me feel more comfortable with her faster than usual. It normally takes me a long time to “warm up” to a person. She had me in a few weeks, and we only actually talked three times in that span.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help. – Here she killed two birds with one stone. Not long after we met she switched her internet provider, and had no idea how to share it with multiple PCs. She called and asked if I would do her a “favor” and meet her at Walmart to pick out a home router. Of course I did (I’m a sucker for a woman in distress…) and after we picked one she looked at the box for a few seconds and said “you know how to hook one of these up right? There is a dinner in it for you!”. So yeah, then she fed me a great home cooked meal. I told her that was her mistake. She fed me and I came back. :-p
4. Be generous and appreciative. – see above about making me dinner. In fact, after that the escalation simply kept moving forward at a steady pace. She invited me over for dinner, then she asked if I wanted to bring my kids over on a Saturday for a cookout with my friend and his wife (they lived two doors down) and as I said above things just kept on moving.
5. Share a lust for life. – for us, this didn’t come into play until a bit further down the road to making things “official”. But, she made it clear without directly putting me into the picture, that she had things she wanted to do and places to go, and if nothing else I felt a bit special because she was sharing it with me. I took it as a sign that she wanted me to be part of those plans, since she took the time to tell me.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him. – yeah. This probably doesn’t need any description, but I will tell you that from the get go my SO was all over this point. In fact, I’ve said before that I applied the brakes a little bit here because she was VERY adamant about wanting to get with me. I know I haven’t had a ton of experience with women in general, but this was something new for me. Not so much feeling like my mate is/was attracted to me (at some point my ex-wife was indeed attracted and interested.) but the intensity of that desire was very high. To be honest, we’ve talked about it and both decided that our sexual attraction for each other is one of the highest either of us has ever experienced. Not so much that at first site “I want to bang that” kind of attraction. It’s more like a constant buzz that sometimes just turns into a roar. (no lie, being with my current SO makes me feel very much like I did as a late teen/early 20-something man. All horned up and ready to pounce) We both realize only being a few years together that we are still in the “fairy tale” stage, but we’ve been living together for much of that time, and so far things have stayed mostly the same. For me, I’ve never had this much straight desire sexually for a woman. It was there from day one, I just did my best to suppress it, kill it, and bury it. Fortunately she simply didn’t let me.
Which is one thing I would like to add. Again my lack of experience here means I learned this lesson late in the game. But sexual attraction really is important. I know that seems obvious, but I believe we’ve discussed here before that men aren’t usually too hard to please, meaning they can work well with even a low level of sexual attraction for a woman, and happily stay as long as his needs (not just sexual) are being met. I know that isn’t romantic, but I think for many men it is simply true. But, I can easily see and feel the difference between my previous LTRs and my current, and part of that is the very strong attraction we feel towards each other. When we are happy, we want to sex each other up. Get into a fight? Hell yeah! Sad or depressed? Strangely enough yes. And at least for me, it really helps to share that kind of intimacy when I’m really in the dumps. Its funny because we can both tell when the other is truly sick, because that is the only time the sexual desire fades. And for me, even then it’s still there. Just my will to act on it is gone while I’m sick. Now I’m not saying jump in the sack to test the waters. We knew WAY before we took off our clothes that we wanted each other. I don’t think either of us had any doubt that it was going to be good stuff, and my SO’s was very anxious to find out honestly. I was too, but for me to feel safe enough for that, I had to feel some level of commitment from her. She did a great job getting us to that point, and I simply had to take the final step to acknowledge it all. Mind you, this all happened before I found the ‘sphere. Things would have been totally different if I’d already found the red pill, but to be honest it may be better that I hadn’t. I would have been far more distrusting of her intentions, and less confident in myself. Strangely enough, I lost a lot of confidence after first taking the red pill, and it took a lot of soul searching and replaying of past experiences to finally feel OK about where I ended up. Maybe I’m just a lucky SOB, or maybe for all that I was mostly beta during my marriage, I had enough alpha in me to get the job done once I was no longer “bound” by my marriage. I’ve never really had problems finding a relationship when I wanted one, and looking back I found that I tend to “puss out” once the relationship is established, but not so much when I’m single and on my own. So, now I’m just going to do my best to keep that “single” state of mind in place.
WOW. I’m in a chatty mood today. The people I work with are going to wonder what is wrong with me if I leave my cube…
PPanda – ““Sexless” marriages are (almost always) exaggerations, and it is (often) a married guy who is unhappy because he is only having sex once a week. Many of the big-talking web-players would be lucky if they had sex half as often as that …”
I don’t know. My own marriage was sexless by the standard definition I’ve seen. At the worst (the last few years) I’d say we had sex MAYBE once or twice a month. At least up until it was clear we were heading for a divorce. I think after that point, we had sex twice, mostly during the “fighting” stage and I think it was more about getting rid of pent up aggression than any desire we had for each other. I know of two other men who were in about that same boat prior to their own divorces. I don’t know if that holds true for most “bad” marriages though.
@Ted D,
Having never been married I can’t say from personal experience, but I suspect that your marriage did not start out sexless; and it probably progressively got worse throughout the marriage.
In all likelihood, I expect most marriages that are broken have a substantial loss of physical intimacy; but they didn’t start out that way. In fact, I expect most men were getting as much sex as they wanted from the relationship before they became married or moved in with a woman. The loss of intimacy therefore can not be attributed to them being “Beta” (because being “Beta” didn’t stop intimacy before) and has to do with a relationship that is falling apart with neither partner knowing how to fix it.
PPanda – “Having never been married I can’t say from personal experience, but I suspect that your marriage did not start out sexless; and it probably progressively got worse throughout the marriage.”
OH yeah! No doubt. I wouldn’t have married her if we weren’t having sex then. LOL
It went exactly as you described. First five years or so where pretty good (for all that we were struggling to make it financially). But as we past the five year mark, things started cooling down. Then she started shit testing and pushing, and instead of holding my ground I doubled down on betaness and drove it all into the ground. I quit gigging completely because she complained about the time I put into it, and I think once I gave in to that demand, it was really a done deal.
I don’t know of anyone that has been in a truly sexless marriage from start to finish. Each one of them started well enough, and then died over time. Usually because of too much betatude after saying “I Do”. But in my defense, it really was what I was told would be expected of me once I “grew up” and became a husband and father. I actually felt bad because I was trying to do things that I liked, keeping interests outside of the family, and I actually believed it was unfair to my ex and kids that I had a life outside of them and work. *shrug* I learned…
@ VD
Um, how did you manage to come up with so many faulty conclusions about me based off of what I wrote?
I’m sorry that I don’t fit into your preconceived notions of women, and you can’t assume to know what I would do in that situation. You don’t know me.
I can tell you now that I wouldn’t get involved with him right after he should hypothetically dump his girlfriend, and I’ll tell you why.
I think that there are certain boundaries which are okay to cross and which are not okay to cross. I understand that not everyone holds themselves to the same standards I do, and that’s fine. I’ve never gone after someone else’s boyfriend, and I’ve never gone after a guy who is recently single. I don’t think it’s wise to. If I know the ex-girlfriend in question, I definitely still consider her ex-boyfriend her turf, end of discussion. The idea of “girl code” might not hold much weight, in your eyes, but it’s something I follow. Trying to get with a friend’s or acquaintance’s ex is a no no. Not all women adhere to that either, which is why there are some women who do it anyway.
I’ll admit that I am attracted to him. It’s had not to be when he is such an attractive person, in general. Having said that, I know my place and I adhere to the boundaries I’ve set for myself.
As far as the woman in the story, I paid attention to her because she made her intentions known from the very beginning. Everyone else at the party watched her as well because they were shocked by her actions. They all knew the girlfriend as well, and I could tell they were judging her, just as I was. She made herself a spectacle by totally disregarding the fact that he had a girlfriend. If any woman were to jump at the opportunity to date him, should he happen to become single, it would be her.
Also, I’ve had a similar experience happen to me that you described. When the relationship between myself and one of my ex’s occurred, 4 men came out of nowhere and tried to get with me right after. I was even more shocked by the fact that 2 of the men were my ex’s friends. I kid you not. One was his roommate, at the time, and the other was a friend he’d had for several years. I found their actions to be very disrespectful. Not only were they breaking “guy code”, but they were also his friends. I ignored all of their advances, and I’m glad that I did. Dating an ex’s friend would be really low. I couldn’t imagine a more weird or awkward cluster fuck of a situation than that.
I’ve been thinking about the whole bro code issue since Jimmy Hendricks’ comment yesterday, specifically as it applies to women, i.e. girl code. He mentioned that one guy will often wind up sleeping with a whole friend group. I have to say I don’t think I have ever even heard of that. If anything, girls tend to be ridiculously territorial, e.g. setting guys off limits indefinitely after a random makeout session that went nowhere. I cannot think of a single example where one girl had sex with a guy another girl had had sex with, unless a lot of time had passed. Even then, it can be very tricky.
I have known girls who slept with a whole guy group – basically a slut who got passed around. Since none of the guys were trying to date her, they were all cool with it.
I can imagine that a group of extremely promiscuous girls or sex positive feminist types might pass guys around among themselves, but as I say, I don’t know any girls like that and have never heard directly of it happening. It doesn’t seem possible that intrasexual female competition would permit it.
Susan, the one time one of my friends took up with a former GF (really just a fling) of mine, I felt very awkward about it and we didn’t really speak much until they broke up. I still to this day cannot quite explain to myself why I felt that way but the feeling was strong.
@Escoffier
I agree, I have felt the same way. Even though I was the one who broke up with my college bf, it really was difficult for me when my sorority sisters lined up to have a crack at him. It made me so uncomfortable at functions, I just wanted him to start dating someone I didn’t know.
Having sex with a group of “friends” is just creepy to me. I mean, in a way, those folks all ended up sleeping with each other if they passed around a guy (or gal). I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!
Jealousy: “Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way.”
Very true – while it may increase his interest in the short-term – usually you have moved yourself into the “unfaithful” category – this means that from a short-term perspective you are worth pursuing more aggressively, since the man can nail her. But from the long term perspective she is definitely NOT LTR material, and after successfully achieving his goal, will move on quickly.
A lot of women do not seem to grasp this – just as a man usually cannot over-come the “friend” label, a woman who a man has branded as a “ho” is branded in that way for him, as well as all of his friends who he will share his success with. This is why some women tend to be “passed around” – they are sort of like a foot-ball, good for a quick and dirty game, but certainly not for anything on par for the championship level.
So the “jealously” gambit generally back-fires if your goal is to up the stakes for a LTR situation.
Susan, I can testify to what Jimmy described – I’ve seen this in college as well.
I was witness to how the girls (while in each others company) would shame this guy for being a “man-whore”, yet each of them threw themselves at him at some point or another.
Two girls that I’m still friends with today both got with him. The first of the two never heard the end of it, the girls made it seem like she had committed treason. Then within weeks, the other (the one who had given the first a particularly hard time) had also hooked up with him.
It’s like the first had told the second a bunch of stories – and they made the second desire to have the same experience with the same guy.
It even went further, cause afterwards (by this time, they both disliked the guy) new girls would come to hangout with us, (I foolishly thought they were trying to hook me up.) and when this guy wasn’t around they’d “shame” him by talking shut about how he’s such a “whore” and then usually new girls would usually follow suit – and hook up with him.
It was pre-selection at it’s best. It’s was like the fact that he had hooked with the girls of the group (and that they were mad it was short-lived) that made other girls immediately qualify him for themselves. Girls wanted to see what made the other girls “shame” him.
@ Cooper
I’ve seen examples of this as well. I always thought that the girls in those situations were desperate and crazy. I’m sorry, but no man is worth that much trouble. I often wondered why they preferred fighting each other over one man instead of going out and getting their own guy that they didn’t have to share. That seems like it would be less of a hassle.
Cooper, the sure-fire way to get a new girl interested in you is getting her on your own. It sounds like your current social circle and female “friends” are just holding you back. They also seem to attract girls who are into a certain kind of guy which you are not.
Being an introvert has many perks, the biggest of which is I never had the awkward social circle sex situation come up, and I’ve never had to be friends or friendly with an ex’s new girlfriend.
First five years or so where pretty good (for all that we were struggling to make it financially). But as we past the five year mark, things started cooling down.
That’s fairly typical of marriages, Ted. That dopamine rush phase can only last for so long. Your body simply can’t sustain it for more than five years. After that, you have to make the transition to a more friendship- or attachment-based oxytocin love or the love will die. My guess isn’t that you were too beta. It’s that there wasn’t a strong enough personal connection between you and your ex to outlast the natural tapering off of sexual attraction.
Then she started shit testing and pushing, and instead of holding my ground I doubled down on betaness and drove it all into the ground.
I think that game can artificially extend some of that dopamine-based excitement on an occasional basis, but, if the friendship element isn’t there, it’s just a stopgap. As an example, the hubs and I can still have a honeymoon weekend (dopamine) when the kids aren’t around, but that wouldn’t happen if the day-to-day (oxytocin) stuff weren’t there.
I quit gigging completely because she complained about the time I put into it, and I think once I gave in to that demand, it was really a done deal.
I agree that you shouldn’t have given in. One, you’re entitled to something you enjoy as long as it’s not screwing other women. Two, gigs are fun! One of my fondest memories is showing up pregnant to a gig and demanding to go backstage because “I’m with the band.” The reaction was hysterical. It’s also really cool to take kids backstage to see daddy when they’re little or–coolest of all–to be backstage wehn your kid is playing.
@inlone
Usually, it’s mostly a job.
@sassy
” I often wondered why they preferred fighting each other over one man instead of going out and getting their own guy that they didn’t have to share.”
I think this happens when the girls main goal is to impress their girl-friends. I think girls don’t think finding a guy of their own to bring back to the group is as impressive as capturing the attention of a guy they all already know for being promiscuous. It’s like the “man-whore” shaming is a tactic to ward off other girls so that they can have the guy for themselves. That and the idea of locking down a player seems like a more impressive catch, I suppose.
@Hope
You are probably correct in your assessment.
@Cooper
So the girls you hang out with are so casual about sex they’ll hear a guy is slutty and immediately determine to “hit that?” Based on the data we have about college students, we’re talking a very small percentage (2-3%) of women – at most.
This may explain a great deal of your frustration in the SMP. Sluts are going for massive displays of dominance (not the good kind), found in men whose mating strategies are also strictly short-term.
J – “It’s also really cool to take kids backstage to see daddy when they’re little or–coolest of all–to be backstage wehn your kid is playing.”
My son is actually in the school band playing tuba, and I have been teaching him to play drums now for a year or so. He remembers when we used to rehearse in our basement, and he seems to be interested in possibly putting something together to play out. But, he’s only going to be 13 this month, so it is early to tell. I’m back to putting some time and effort into my musical interests and plan to share that with all our kids as much as possible. I don’t plan on making any rock stars, but I certainly enjoyed my time gigging and at least it will give them something other than video games to be involved in. And hey, if he (or the other two) decide to put a band together, I’m hella good at running live sound, and could probably even serve as a manager of sorts. (I’m used to dealing with bar owners and venue schedulers.)
Yeah, I know all about the five year thing now. Its funny. My ex and I are MUCH better friends now than we were when married. We get along well, but we don’t work well WITH each other. I think some people just aren’t good for each other, even if they both want it to be. In the end, I’m glad it worked out the way it did. I am much happier, and instead of being one of the guys I know that has to fight tooth and nail to be involved in his children’s lives, my ex and I both try very hard to work together for what is best for our kids. Everyone I know tells me just what a rare thing I have going, but to me it just makes sense. It’s bad enough our family was pulled apart, I’ll be damned if I’m going to have my children dealing with parents that hate each other. She had plenty of good qualities when we got married, and for the most part those are all still there. So, why hate? I’ve even managed to find a new mate that my ex likes, and as odd as it seems they get along very well. In fact, my ex and SO have and do communicate directly with each other as necessary to keep things running smoothly with our household. (for things like setting up weekend swaps and such) My SO’s ex was just up last weekend to pickup her kids for the summer, and he stayed the night before heading back south. We have lots of beds, and again I don’t want any of our children to see the adults in their lives acting like children. We are all adults, and there is no reason to act any other way.
Besides, the icing on the cake is that my SO and I get a summer vacation of sorts. You see, our children all go to their other families over the summer, leaving us alone to enjoy whatever we want. I imagine it will only be a few more years though. The boys are going to be 16 in three years. Once they get summer jobs I doubt they will want to lose the chance to make more money, and then we will probably only get a few weeks of peace and quiet. But that’s fine since they will be out and busy anyway. And, we look at this as preparation for our empty nest phase. We will NOT find ourselves sitting at the table wondering what to do with ourselves once the kids are out. We are actually making plans already. As in, once they move out, we already have plans for re-purposing their bedrooms and such. And we just keep adding to the list of places we want to vacation.
Like I said, I may be a lucky SOB. Or, maybe, despite my failures I choose decent people to be a part of my life. It is probably a mix.
“they’ll hear a guy is slutty and immediately determine to “hit that?””
Not immediatey, they seem to shame the ones that hook up with them, while they’re together when he’s not around. They’ll even ‘warn’ girls that aren’t familiar with him and that only seems to perk the new girls interest in him.
I have to admit, I did tactically move downtown to locate myself near this particular social group – which hasn’t been very productive cause traditional values are not something that are, well, valued – or even encouraged for that matter.
I will always remember the conversation about friends of ours that have stayed together, as a couple, throughout college since high-school. All the girls of our group considered it almost unnatural behavior. They all agreed that that just wasn’t “in their nature.” So, yeah, they obviously believe that there is a certain amount of “fun” they’re entitled to before having to “settle down.”
This seemed appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YwLMM_QBkMc#!
”Having sex with a group of “friends” is just creepy to me. I mean, in a way, those folks all ended up sleeping with each other if they passed around a guy (or gal). I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!”
But dude, doesn’t that mean that everyone has slept with everyone due to people not marrying as (real) virgins? lol
Let me guess, this guy was NOT Alpha, but really quite beta.
@Ted
It sounds like you’re having fun with your son, and that’s the main thing. You never know what’ll happen though. Between our two boys, my husband has been the unofficial coach, road manager and recording engineer for a bunch of short-lived kid bands and it all started in our basement from kids having fun.
Our aim isn’t raise rockstars either. We’re just happy the boys have something fun to do that they’ll look forward to while doing their day jobs. Gigging gives DH someting to kook forward to when his desk job gets annoying. If one of the boys gets rich and famous, then…bonus!
In regard to your and your SO’s arrangements with your respective exes, it really sounds ideal. All the kids are lucky to have parents who are mature enough to put their difficulties aside for their sakes. My hat is of to you and your SO, Ted.
Cooper, I stayed with the same guy from high school, through all four years of college, and for a few years after that. The female friends I had didn’t think that was weird or anything.
By the way, my husband basically a “lone wolf” when I met him, because he had left his toxic social circle back in college. He would have probably turned me off if he had a bunch female friends who act as you described.
In my opinion, your female “friends” are actually cockblocking you. Because you think “pre-selection” is the only way to get new girls, and because these girls are probably physically attractive, you hang onto the “friendship.” They aren’t doing you any good.
I’m sorry that I don’t fit into your preconceived notions of women, and you can’t assume to know what I would do in that situation. You don’t know me.
Not only can I assume to know what you would do in certain situations, I can likely do so more accurately than you can. You’re a woman, so you’re dynamic and heavily influenced by emotions, hence the oft-heard “hamster” metaphor. This means you are not a particularly reliable judge of what you will or will not do in a hypothetical situation, regardless of how strongly you happen to feel about something at the moment. Should your feelings change, you will feel just as strongly about your revised position, and if you are anything like most women, you may even deny that you ever felt differently.
I’ll admit that I am attracted to him. It’s hard not to be when he is such an attractive person, in general. Having said that, I know my place and I adhere to the boundaries I’ve set for myself.
Perhaps you will. Perhaps you won’t even have the chance to violate them. But I note that the boundaries you have set for yourself still permit you to have sex with him, simply not when he is in, or was very recently in, a relationship. What is clear is that you are a) attracted to him, and b) would be at least potentially willing to get together with him so long as it is not “right after” he goes back on the market. What you have not grasped is that this tends to support the position that women are attracted to social proofed studs, they are not repelled by them as is so often claimed. Also, if you are already attracted, the chances are nil that you could withstand a focused campaign on his part.
You quite wisely don’t want to be harem member or rebound girl. Your desire to avoid that trumps his attractiveness at the moment and is a credit to your good sense. But it’s also apparent that it wouldn’t matter to you if he had been with 10 women or 100, you are attracted to him, in part due to his degree of social proof. Given that you’re already attracted, do you think you would cease to be attracted to him if his N > 10? Or >30?
I was witness to how the girls (while in each others company) would shame this guy for being a “man-whore”, yet each of them threw themselves at him at some point or another.
There are few better ways for a girl to hook you up than to “warn off” another girl about you. My best wingman was one of my brother’s ex-girlfriends, a tall, blonde model who was a near double for Niki Taylor. In addition to serving as social proof by her presence in the pack, she would go up to women we’d approach and tell them how dreadfully awful we were, that our house was like a revolving door, and so forth. It was like shooting fish in barrels.
A man is in much better shape if a woman tells him “you’re terrible” or “you’re disgusting” than “aw, you’re so sweet”.
I am having some conceptual problems here.
@ted:
WHY is it so vital that there MUST be a “girl game”? For the life of me this has been something that no one has been able to adequately explain to me or anyone else that actually made sense. From an evopsych pov getting the job done is far and away easier for the female than it is for the male; again for every spinster there are at least two bachelors (buss, the evolution of desire). It almost seems like a competition thing; “girls got game too!”-when in truth, once one understands evopsych which is what informs game to begin with, the whole thing sounds downright silly.
@peppermint panda:
I am trying to understand your and a whole lot of peoples problems with pickup artists? Why the hate? For the most part they arent bothering anybody, arent breaking any laws. They simply want to have sexual relationships on their own terms; whats the harm in that? It seems to me that for some people, game/pickup is deply unsettling in a way that those who have problems either cant or wont articulate in a calm, rational way.
@ms walsh:
Part of my response to ted applies to you insofar as preselection is concerned; while men definitely do mate poach it isnt the same thing as preselection, nor do guys think a womans hot BECAUSE shes with a guy (a “hot” one at that). I am just not getting why we must “democratize” game so that for every aspect or jot and tittle of it, there must be this notion that theres a female analog. Again, only those who do not understand evopsych, let alone game itself, would say such a thing.
But you are right on one major count: being what would be considered an alpha male is simply this:
A man with options.
Because its those “options” that form the basis of his being alpha in the first place-which is a clear majority of women would like to have him than not.
Finally…
Buss makes a powerful argument about mate rentention in his the evolution of desire. The scenario w/ms brown sugah in central park was centered mainly on this fact. By that time i had invested more than a year and a half of my time, emotions, and money. If i had gone along with the second option i stood to lose everything i had worked for. My mate attraction attempts would have been for nothing.
O.
I should mention something my wife pointed out to me once. One reason that “man-whores” have great appeal to non-sluts is because they are safe in a very specific way. A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone. They can’t do this with men who might get fixated on them and insist on relationships that will interfere with their educations or careers.
We’re not talking about sluts here, obviously, because sluts openly engage in their activities. Many women, far more than you might think, have had a sexual relationship or two that they kept secret from everyone, including their best friends, even if they were single. It usually ends when they get into a serious and exclusive relationship. Maintaining such secret uncommitted relationships is quite typical of women between 18-25 who are in their “having fun” years.
@ VD
So you proclaim to know the extent of my moral character and integrity, just because I’m a woman and there are women out there who happen to conduct themselves as the lowest denominator of morality? How is that fair or accurate? You can’t make accurate statements about me based off of your observations alone.
I know you doubt all women’s ability to be introspective, but surely you can acknowledge that there are significant differences between individuals in any population.
The boundaries are more than him just being in a relationship. I have already stated that I make it a point never to date the ex’s of women that I am friends with or acquaintances with. I know his girlfriend personally. I wouldn’t think to date him. That’s her turf. Even if they break up, it’s still her turf, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. For you to question the strength of my character and to suggest that I would engage in morally questionable behavior insults me. I conduct myself as a lady at all time. I’m not out in the world spreading my legs for any man who will have me. I have always stuck by my words/convictions, and this situation is no different.
Finally, his “social proof” is not what it attractive to me about him. I thought he was attractive from the first moment I saw him. He didn’t have women circling around him, and it made no difference. He was attractive to me simply because he is attractive. He’s very good looking, kind, and charismatic. I’d notice those attributes about him whether or not women were in the picture at all.
Also, there is a limit to male promiscuity that I can tolerate before I decide it’s better to cut my losses. A male with more than 20 sexual partners is suspicious to men. A man with more than around 35 is a no go situation. I’m interested in long-term relationships. I just don’t think that a man with that many sexual partners could ever be as faithful as I’d like him to be. Granted, there are exceptions to that scenario. I’m sure there are men out there who have high partner counts who can be faithful and devoted in a monogamous relationship, but I’d rather not take my chances.
One guy I worked with a few years ago had a reputation for being fairly promiscuous. When he met me, he told me that he had just broken up with his girlfriend and that he was interested in me. I turned him down directly. The fact that he was fresh out of a relationship was a red flag, and the fact that he was promiscuous was another. Over the next few months, he kept coming at me. I told him that I only thought of him as a friend because I could never take being in a relationship with him seriously. During those few months, he told me about a few of his escapades with women. I asked him whether or not he thought I would be impressed with his escapades, and he said yes. I told him afterwards that I wasn’t impressed and that it only made him seem immature. Finally, he ended up getting back with his ex girlfriend at some point. I knew it was time to cut contact with him completely when he asked me if I’d be interested in a threesome with him and his girlfriend.
Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.
@hope:
While i would mos def agree that a man going solo to pickup women can and does work, i wouldnt say its the “best” way of doing so. Lets face it-most guys simply dont have the pickup skills to get er done all on their own, and while the vast majority of guys arent good wingmen, its better than nothing when you arent that good to begin with. Rolling dolo only works if your game is at least moderate preferrably airtight. The best players have always rolled alone because of the fact that if anyones gonna mess you up its your homies. Good wingmen are very hard to find.
@peppermint panda:
I would take any self report with a brick of salt. We have reams of evidence courtesy of game circles of guys who simply arent getting laid at all, and the sexless marriage is real even by the way you described it BECAUSE THE SEX ISNT SATISFYING TO THE MEN.
Indeed this was the crux of athol kay: for men sex must be frequent. Moreover for most guys its also got to be at least somewhat freaky-now thats a lodaded word because “freaky” can mean lots of things to lots of people. But at bare minimum, frequency of sex is a major concern to most guys, AS IS THE MATTER OF THEIR WIVES LETTING THEMSELVES GO. Steve harvey even addresses this in his collossally successful “act like a lady think like a man”. I think most of the problems there would go away overnight if the women looked good and bent over and cracked a smile-another reason why “girl game” is kinda ridiculous.
At any rate i reiterate:
The real story in places like nyc, is the massive numbers of guys who are involuntairly celibate, are defacto eunuchs-they get NOTHING AT ALL. That theres not even a cultural vocabulary to discuss this simple numerical fact (women far outnumber men in nyc), really tells you everything you need to know about the efficacy of evopsych…
O.
@ms sassy:
Question:
Do you think profiling works? If so/not, why?
O.
Obsidian – “It almost seems like a competition thing; “girls got game too!”-when in truth, once one understands evopsych which is what informs game to begin with, the whole thing sounds downright silly.”
I’m not interested in some competition, but “girl game” seems like an easy label to wrap Susan’s post in. Call it what you want, but to me it really is the female equivalent to the part the man is supposed to play in a relationship. We’ve had years of feminist agenda telling young women that acting in the ways Susan describes go against their best interests, which is total BS. Sure, women should not treat every man she meets like this. But, as I said, someone needs to tell these young women that the man they intend to marry and be with is NOT just some guy on the street. There is no need for her to keep up the “feminist defense” with him, if indeed she chose well anyway. Far too many women take the ball busting bitch at work approach and apply it to their personal relationships. Unless she is a ball busting bitch at heart, why go through all that?
And lets cut to the chase. If men were still raised to be “real men”, we wouldn’t be talking about “game” for men either. After all, “game” is simply a way to teach men how to do the things we used to learn from our fathers and other male role models before they were removed from families by legal force, or made into betas themselves. There is no denying that this dance requires two partners, and each one brings their own set of moves to the floor. “Game” reflects the male moves, so what do we call the female moves? Femininity works, but I think that would be shot down fast by the feministas of today…
@Cooper
If it’s not in their nature, I can’t imagine they’ll wind up settling down successfully. That’s the problem with the meme that women jump from alphas to betas. I don’t think they do. In general, I think alpha chasers stay alpha chasers, and girls who date betas marry betas. Of course, there are those men who find out their wives never did think they were hot – ouch. I can’t imagine how that happens, frankly. Maybe I should write a post about what it looks, feels and sounds like when a woman is head over heels. No man should risk marrying a woman who is saying “meh” of even “uh oh” as she walks down the aisle.
Obsidian – “Do you think profiling works? If so/not, why?”
Wow, you really do like to stir the pot. :-p
I’m interested in seeing where this goes though. I get into “profiling” debates with folks a lot, and I’m interested in seeing what Sassy and the rest here think on it. I have a strong opinion on it, but it isn’t a popular one these days…
@Ramble
Nope, he was my first bf, totally alpha. Quarterback, frat president, Greek God, 1976. Dumb as rocks. Nice guy in the way that alphas often were back then. I haven’t dated an alpha since, which is how I know that the notion of a woman always longing for the alpha she sexed up is crap. He was a good boyfriend, and I lost my virginity to him, but in retrospect it was the worst sex I ever had. Seriously, even the ONSs were better.
Oh, and if you’re wondering why alphas are bad in bed? No emo.
@ted:
The idea that game is this overarching response to feminism et al is a powerful meme inside manosphere circles but doesnt have much pull in seduction circles. There is no evidence mystery or others came up with game as a response to feminism etc. If you have any such evidence i sure would like to see it.
I think my question posed to ms sassy really zeroes in on a few things among them her convo w/vd. I dont want to spoil it for anyone plus i want to give her a chance to respond so lets see what happens…
O.
@Bastiat
Jenna Marbles is funny. I’ve linked to her “how to look hot” video before, which is very well done.
@ms walsh:
Im trying to understand what the problem was w/the bf you lost your virginity to then; by your own account he was nice and a good bf; just that the sex leaved a lot to be desired. Am i missing something here?
Please explain?
Thanks!
O.
Susan, on whether some girls take a whirl with alpahs and then move on to betas:
I would say that was the case with my two serious GFs (pre-wife). The first, the one I had through most of college, had “hooked up” a little avant la lettre, mostly in HS. She had a low number but it was all casual, I think all ONSs no less, which led to a smallish reputation. (Back then N<5 could get you called a slut, innocent times!) By the time we started dating it was all at least two years behind her and AFAIK she had been totally chaste during the intervening time. I think she glommed onto me in part because I was such a non-threatening beta. She definitely would have married me.
The other one I never did ask for detail but she had lived in France for several years and I know she had one older, suave assholic frog boyfriend. She had a rough time with him and I don't know who dumped who but I'm sure I was a lot easier for her to handle. Heh.
And if she slaps or punches him while saying that, he’s in.
@Obs
No, I don’t mean that guys want women when they see them with other men.
I know that guys talk amongst themselves, and often rank girls. While tastes vary, they will often come to some kind of consensus about who’s the hottest or the best catch. That’s the preselection. A guy who might be more attracted to Girl A, who his friends don’t know, but whose friends do go on and on about Girl B – is likely to give Girl B his attention. It’s male intrasexual competition at work, and he derives status if he gets the girl that all the guys want.
I’ve actually heard stories of high school knuckleheads rejecting girls because “Stacey likes me and everybody thinks she’s super hot, so I’m going to choose her.”
@Obsidian
I have no hate for PUA, I have woken up to the truth and it is not pretty …
Have you ever seen the videos of Nick Vujicic?
He is a motivational speaker who has no arms and no legs and by the logic of the PUA community he would be doomed to singlehood or (at best) ending up with Jabba the Hut. He is actually married, his wife is hot, and if you see him talk you will understand why …
While he accepts his limitations he doesn’t make excuses, he has purpose to his life, has immense self confidence, a non-needy sensitivity and a resilient spirit; from my experience women respond to this better than just about anything else. Even though only 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 women would accept his physical limitations, the fact that his personality allows him to (essentially) bat 1.000 with these women meant that he did very well.
Much like how a large portion of the 25% of men who are constantly single have a bunch of mental, emotional, social-status and physical issues preventing them from finding partners to have meaningful relationships, a large portion of the 25% of women who are constantly single have a bunch of mental, emotional, social-status and physical issues preventing them from finding partners to have meaningful relationships. Being that the women the PUA community is approaching do not have obvious physical flaws, they’re disproportionately made up of women with mental, emotional, and social-status problems.
In spite of all the claims that they’re getting the “best” women, the PUA gurus never seem to settle down. Being that I’ve met enough amazing women in my life to see the benefits of settling down with one when you find one, don’t you think it is a little odd that the PUA gurus are far more likely to have an emotional break-down caused by an emotionally toxic stripper than to settle down?
@Obs
I assume you’re aware that there are Game bloggers who advise precisely the opposite. That is, it’s easier to maintain attraction in your mate if you produce anxiety, jealousy and suspicion in her so that she fears losing you. This is accomplished by overtly courting the attention of other women in her presence. Roissy’s “instill dread” post was the origin of this claim, but others have run with it as well.
@Susan
Re: from alphas to betas
Have you read the, rather recent, forum post titled “My fiance found out about my recent past. What can I do?”
I think it illustrates how women can go from alpha-seeking to beta-seeking.
How she has gone from having “crazy” threesomes with her ex, to having a “perfect” fiancé within a year speaks a thousand words. (clearly the second guy was probaby “marriage material” all along, cause she was able to have him purpose within a year)
She even says that her fiancé is truly who she wants to marry. And that she doesn’t want have anymore “crazy” sex (including threesomes) with her now fiancé.
I think the post perfectly illustrates how she seeking ‘A-particular-guy’ for “fun.” And seeks ‘B-certain-guy’ for marriage.
And, of course, now that her fiancé has found out, he wants to have some “crazy” sex with her. (he doesn’t want to be treated differently)
I think it’s absolutely ridiculous for her find it OK to use A-guy for “fun” and then expect ‘B-guy’ to be satisfied with what’s left. She’s not getting married to ‘B-guy’ to “share her life” – she’s using ‘B-guy’ for a certain particular means. (which is probably strictly procreation) Who knows what ‘use’ she’ll have for ‘B-guy’ afterwards.
Why does she find it acceptable to separate ‘fun’ with ‘marriage’? She clearly has separated the kind of men she would select depending on which she wants, at the time.
@ Obsidian
I wouldn’t say that profiling works. I’d say it’s effective in what it intends to achieve, which is to provide a general guideline in predicting the behavior of any given population. Having said that, it has a glaring flaw to it. It can’t accurately predict the actions of or represent all individuals of a given profile.
Taking the actions/behaviors of a few individuals of a certain population that has a unifying trait (Ex: race, gender, SES, sexual orientation, etc), and attempting to extrapolate those actions/behaviors onto the entire population often leads to drawing incorrect conclusions about some people on the individual level.
The people who are lumped into a profile that don’t fit the extrapolated actions/behaviors that are attributed to everyone in the profile group are falsely labeled and classified. Not taking the differences among individuals of any population into account is inaccurate. Some great examples of the generalizations that stem from profiling that miss the variance within a given population are as follows:
1. Men cheat.
2. Black people are on welfare.
3. Women shoplift.
4. Gay people are promiscuous.
All statements above are incorrect when extrapolated to every individual in their respective populations. There are indeed individuals who adhere to the extrapolated actions/behaviors attributed to their profiles, but not all do.
I like to be close to my friends, but not THAT close!
Bad Ted you are not a true friend till all of you get an STD from the same woman. Get in line with the times!
Being an introvert has many perks, the biggest of which is I never had the awkward social circle sex situation come up, and I’ve never had to be friends or friendly with an ex’s new girlfriend.
I think Susan is right about this only affecting certain circles, I’m an extroverted and I only know one case of this “passing on the same mawhore” in a group of friends in all my life. Most of the time the manwhore is really careful on keeping his girls on the dark about each, other. Maybe one could know about one or the others if her interest and they both knew it, but as a general rule distance was kept to avoid problems, at least IME.
In my opinion, your female “friends” are actually cockblocking you. Because you think “pre-selection” is the only way to get new girls, and because these girls are probably physically attractive, you hang onto the “friendship.” They aren’t doing you any good. \
I agree with this. Like mentioned before you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince/princess but if you find yourself only kissing frogs you might be living on a swamp…move out!, YMMV.
A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone. They can’t do this with men who might get fixated on them and insist on relationships that will interfere with their educations or careers.
I cosign this. The only time I had see this preselection effect was thankfullly the only woman I know personally that had cheated on her husband. She slept with a known manwhore that she heard from many other women that he was into married women and had been more years, he is married himself, he started to hit on her heavily sending her really sexual emails and doing the whole “If you are in a sexless marriage I can help you with that” I did warned her that a married woman shouldn’t be talking sexually with any other man and that she was playing with fire, yeah she slept with him half a dozen times till he got sick of her and dumped her for new flesh, so it does happens but is the first and only time I had seen it and God has mercy of me is the last time. Some things are better left to the imagination.
Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.
@VD
That makes sense, and I imagine much marital infidelity meets this description. But I think very few women are wired to pursue casual sex as an end in itself. It may happen (oops!) but that’s not the same as going out to acquire a ONS.
This is actually frequently mentioned by college women in studies as an advantage to hooking up. It’s not a secret, they’re happy to hookup openly, but they specifically mention avoiding commitment while they are focusing on education and career. In a way, it’s more about avoiding commitment-oriented guys during their “work” years.
“It’s not a secret, they’re happy to hookup openly, but they specifically mention avoiding commitment while they are focusing on education and career.”
But I don’t get this at all. Can you explain? I’ve been in LTRs since I was 16 years old, and even when they were at their worst, it wasn’t like having a serious GF was sucking all my time and energy away from more “important” things. What is so damn hard about going to school and/or work while being in a relationship? In my experience, being with someone actually helps me get more shit done in fact! If nothing else, I have someone else to share the daily crap tasks with so I can dedicate more time to important stuff.
So, what is it? Even the idea that “I will be moving away after college” is BS to me. So what? One of you finds a job somewhere, and the other comes with and finds one there as well. Its like everyone is letting their career totally dictate their life even before they get started. Why? Aren’t we all supposed to be working on a better work/life balance?
Why he thought I’d fall for all that is beyond me.
That is the way human brain works. If he have had other women upping the price of admission he might had though you were just doing that not that you really were not going there no matter what. I mentioned that the married guy that chased me the most started with “offering beers” and ended up tricking me into having dinner with him (I left after drinking a soda and paying for it myself) and then making a party at his luxury house so I will see his wealth and his a lot more hot than me wife, maid and constantly talking about having another child in front of us. I didn’t got it at the moment since all this displays only made me more disgusted by his insistence but I guess he was biding better thinking a low class girl like me wouldn’t be able to resist a “wealthier man mistress position and the chance of upgrade at some point with a kid”, but of course he was totally wrong, so yeah some men do really think that all women are the same and all it takes is finding the right price to get us to open our legs willingly.
Reading these comments makes me want to be a white woman. Unlimited sex, pickup men easily, desired by every race, have kids with black, white, hispanic men and still end up with a nice guy when im done partying at 40. Happily ever after. If that doesnt work, since I have been with so many men, I will adopt a baby from Africa. White women sure have it easy
“so yeah some men do really think that all women are the same and all it takes is finding the right price to get us to open our legs willingly.”
For sure. Many of them are writers in the ‘sphere.
Women can pickup any guy they want due to their Vagina. Keeping a man requires personality. This is where it evens out for men and women. But strictly speaking of sex, if black women and white women just want sex with as many men as possible, the white woman will have numbers higher than wilt chamberlin. Women dont need pickup lines or dhv since men are easy. Approach a guy tomorrow and just say hi, call me! That woman has a date. If a guy does this, women get extremely picky. Only way women will have to work to getting a date is if the men ratio significantly plummets. The way the world is going, world war is right around the corner. Mostly men will be in the front lines. When there are 200 women for 1 man, than women will realize they need a personality and cant use their looks to win a man over. She is competing with other women. Right now women have no competition, but when they do its worse than men. Just another season of the bachelor
@Obs
There were two clues in my description of my first bf:
1. He was not intelligent. I knew that from the start, and to be honest, just kind of put that to the side because he had very high social status and was well liked by everyone. I remember being particularly turned off when he said he had no opinion re the Carter vs. Ford election. He did not cultivate a life of the mind. I believe he went into sales and has done well, which doesn’t surprise me. But I have always preferred very intelligent men, and have never thought seriously about a guy who wasn’t very bright. I can recall his talking about marriage, and knowing that would never, ever happen.
2. He was no emo. As you know, the female fantasy is to tame the alpha and reveal his simmering, vulnerable, emotional core. I learned something important very early. There is no emotional core. Yes, alphas have feelings too, but their emotional life is tamped down and/or stunted. He was a good man, but emotionally reticent. So I tamed the alpha, only to find out “there was no there there.”
These two things in combination made him something deadly: BORING. Nice, kind, handsome and boring. It was like dating a Ken doll.
Susan, I wonder if a true alpha is ever “boring.” Also, he was the one who brought up marriage. Maybe we need a term for alpha on the outside (handsome, althetic, conventionally successful) but beta on the inside (dull, predictable, eager for committment). Sort of like a fancy looking car with a 4-cylinder, low HP engine.
She even says that her fiancé is truly who she wants to marry. And that she doesn’t want have anymore “crazy” sex (including threesomes) with her now fiancé.
Yikes! That’s some story! My guess is that it’s over with the fiance and that she should just accept that and move on. As to having threesomes with him and some other girl, she should refuse. It won’t restore his love, will make her feel worse about herself, and will only complicate the life of some other girl who will then have her own ugly story to hide. She could apologize for misleading him, explain her fears of telling him the whole story and then refuse to further degrade herself. That would be the healthiest and most responsible response, but I doubt it will get him back.
@Cooper
I disagree. Her fiance clearly makes her tingle and has from the start. She makes clear she was rather surprised to hear he had a lower N than she did, and that he had never been casual. When she figured that out, she was clearly anxious to keep the truth from him about her own past.
I think this happens a lot – despite claims to the contrary, we can’t tell very easily who’s alpha and who’s beta. Lots of betas are handsome and lots of alphas are ugly. Especially early in a relationship, a girl is going after a handsome guy she has chemistry with. In my experience, that’s often a beta. (See Vox Day’s definition of beta for more on this – they do fine with women, for the most part.) *Most* women get their dominance need met via adequate self-confidence in a guy. By the way, not sure if you crossed paths with Jesus Mahoney here, but at 28, with a N of 2, he learned that his fiancee had a similar secret past and he ended the engagement. Clearly, that woman, who had a count of 24, had been with him for four years and was still highly attracted to him when he ended it. So I don’t think these labels are always extremely useful.
(Note: This is not me telling you to be beta and not to worry about being dominant. Although you will find that your female friends are not representative of most women.)
In the ‘sphere, the generally held, indeed “clung to” belief is that women really want alphas, ride the alpha cock carousel for 10 years or more, then one day they make a left turn and snag some beta schlub with a decent paycheck. They only turned left because a right would have taken them into the parking lot of the cat rescue shelter. I’m sure it does happen, but not nearly as often as men claim. I think it’s far more common for a woman to get into her 30s and realize she’s probably not going to get that alpha after all, so she remains single.
Recently, someone posted a link about this – and when I dug through the numbers, what the story said was that 10% of divorced women weren’t in love when they got married. That’s 4% of women who marry and less than 2% of college educated women. The numbers just don’t add up to support the claim. Of course, if you’re the poor bastard whose wife has confessed that, it sucks.
@Sassy
Hmmm, if you change #4 to “gay men”, though, you’ll have an example where it’s a good working rule and the reason it is happens to be tied to the origin of #1. Flagging would not work if that variant isn’t true at all and it wouldn’t be codified if it wasn’t true over a broad enough population.
Interestingly, if you changed #4 to “lesbians are promiscuous with commitment” I’d also thing you have a good working rule. There is a reason the phrase “no UHauls” is seen in lesbian personal ads and why UHaul jokes are popular. Again, if it wasn’t true over a broad enough population it wouldn’t be as common.
Then again, I consider those too things just another demonstration of the true of the men want sex/women want commitment assumptions we work on here at HUS.
Some generalizations are useful as long as you understand they are just that, when to apply them, and when not to apply them.
@Susan
I agreed until the last part. Change that to 40 and that she’ll tell herself she never wanted the alpha at all or keep it at 30 and that she’ll tell herself there aren’t any alphas anyway because all men are children.
@ms walsh:
Thanks for answering. A few followup questions please:
Why is it so vital for women to “tame the alpha” to get to his “emo” core? Yes we know thats the female fantasy; the question becomes why?
It seems youre associating intelligence w/beta male traits and dull-wittedness with alpha male traits and that would be a very dangerous mistake to make. I wonder why you are doing this?
O.
@Ted D
That’s a good question. Maybe it’s cognitive dissonance on the part of women, as a response to the majority of guys saying they want to avoid relationships to have fun. For the record, it’s not the majority of women who feel this way – these are the girls who actually prefer hooking up to a relationship. Divorce in the family is also correlated to this view, perhaps reflecting a cynicism about relationships in general, and how much energy they take.
Boomers have put a lot of pressure on their kids. We’re aware that we came of age during a new rash of opportunities for women, and we expect a lot of our daughters. I think you’d be hard pressed to find 10% of parents of college females who would feel good about their daughter up and moving to wherever Johnny gets a job. I know I wouldn’t have.
The numbers tell the story. College educated women marry at age 28. Why would a woman of only 21 make a major life decision while banking on her college bf? The chances of their actually marrying are very low.
@Escoffier
Are you serious? I believe IQ is negatively correlated to testosterone. Hence the term “dumb jock.” The Tom Bradys of the world are rare. I know my husband is always pleasantly surprised and admiring when a pro athlete is articulate. On the other hand, classical violinists are rarely burly guys with prominent brows.
Of course there are smart alphas and stupid alphas and interesting alphas and boring alphas. What sets them apart is dominance, not smarts.
Obviously, I’m talking here about natural alphas, not acquired alpha traits.
Susan, I have read that the highest correlation between IQ and biological factors is the IQ of the mother. Also, higher exposure to testosterone in utero is correlated with higher IQ:
http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/03/14/testosterone-hormone-linked-to-higher-iq/24379.html
@ms walsh, @peppermint panda:
Exactly what game writers are you referring to when you make your claims and assertions? Yrpuas whole point in being here and posting a tonne of links to reputed puas was to prove that the vast majority of them do nothing of the sort both of you are talking about. So some meaningful distinctions need to be made here. Please explain?
Second, pp, one of the puas metioned in “the game” was badboy, who was injured in the kosovo war and permanently walked with a limp w/the aid of a cane. He was killin on on the niteclub scene.
Third, quite a few prominent game writers/teachers have indeed settled down; david dangelo recently got married; juggler got a ltr and retired; mystery settled down at least for a while; some deal with style; and the list goes on. Moreover i dont see *why* its so very important that game writers be married or otherwise in ltrs to begin with; it certainly didnt impact my decision to learn from them. Its like demanding that your professor be married or “settled down” before you will even listen to what they have to say. Ridiculous.
Lastly: ms walsh why do you keep mentioning roissy/heartiste/the dark lord of sith game in relation to my experience in central park? For that matter why is there such a huge amount of time devoted to discussions in or about the manosphere in general? Why do they matter so very much to you-even in the face of countervailing evidence to the contrary from other sources like again yrpuas pickup links? Is adam lyons (whos also married i might add!) really on par with roissy?
Please explain?
Thanks!
O.
@Susan
The fact that her fiancé made her tingle isn’t very suprising since from the sounds of it she was already in seeking-marriage-material mode by that point.
That still doesn’t change the fact that she “tingled” for her ex, and once “tingled” for crazy threesomes, and chose different guys to satisfy different “tingles.” And now what to know how to keep her fiancé without having to re-do what she once “tingled” for. (while with her ex)
Is that not picking certain guys to satisfy different “tingles”?
(cause that was what my point was)
The fact that she tingles for her current fiancé is completely mute, since it was what she tingled for that’s what *changed*.
Susan, I was not joking. My read of the ‘sphere is that part of the definition of alpha is “exciting.” Exciting guys can still be dumb. Think of a drummer who rides a Harley. Can be quite exciting even if not smart.
Your guy sounds like he was not merely dumb but also dull and rather committed to you, which does not sound very alpha.
@Obs
You know the lock and key metaphor for men? That a man wants to be the only key that can open a lock? It’s the same with women, but instead of unlocking sex, we’re unlocking emotional investment.
No, as I just said to Escoffier, I think all permutations exist. However, as you’ve observed yourself, the guys in the far right tail of the bell curve are unlikely to be very good with women, right? The ones who are also more likely to be on the spectrum for autism-related behaviors? The logic flows from there. I believe you’ve been driving this point home yourself in stating repeatedly that black women don’t select intelligent men, they select thugs.
Where I do think there is a clear, discernible difference is in the emotional realm. I think it’s fair to say that as a rule, alphas have lower emotional intelligence. Women want and need a touch of that “female trait” in their men, so that we can relate. Literally. That’s the way we communicate, and a relationship without emotional exchange and intimacy is very unsatisfying for women, as a rule.
@ms sassy:
Thanks for answering. A few followup questions in light of your responses please:
Would you rather live in 1992 harlem nyc, or, in 2012 harlem nyc-and why?
Men commit more violent crime than women in general; and black men commit more violent crime than all other groups of men in general. True or false?
There are many good individuals in phillys “the badlands”; or in compton ca; or in “the brick city” (newark nj). Given these facts would you move to any one of these locations? Why or why not?
Who is more likely to commit a suicide bombing-an arab muslim, or a white seventh day adventist? Would you be more concerned about the former or the latter on an airplane fight you took?
Again, thanks!
O.
Tom Leykis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Vyd2mGsHA&feature=related
women agreeing that women should pay the bill, approach, rather than just looking pretty and wanting everything handed down to them. Chivalry was when women couldnt work, vote, go to college. We are equals now. But you still want us to open the door? Will you open the door for us? Because we are the MAN we should open the door. Since I am the Man, I want to have sex with you after the first date. Sexism?
@ms walsh:
Yes the key/lock metaphor makes sense to me thanks for explaining.
However it must be noted that i never said or suggested who black women choose or why; only asking whether they selected for intelligence and how we could confirm or deny this.
Yes its true that ive often spoken about men on the extreme right end of the bell curve in terms of iq and the tradeoffs inherent in all that. Its widely known that women ideally want a mix of traits in a man, a kind of “sweet spot” btw brains, brawn and as you put it, “emo”.
Just curious…i hope you dont mind my asking…
Do you think sexiness has anything to do with iq? If so/not why? I ask because of youre saying how bad the sex was w/your ostensible alpha bf…
O.
Because it’s directly reminiscent of debates that have been held in these parts recently. I am struck by the difference in your approach, simple as that. I’m also somewhat confused. In this part of the ‘sphere – let’s say that group that Ferdinand used to link to – Game overlaps heavily with MRA concerns and is mostly anti-feminism in its orientation. As a result, a lot of misogyny creeps in and colors both the discussions, and the application of Game itself.
It may be that yrpua linked to Game bloggers with a different view, IDK. I don’t overlap or cross paths with them, and have little interest in reading any more about PUA. From what I’ve gathered based on the writings of ex-PUAs, including Ricky Raw, Mark Manson and even our own Peppermint Panda, there’s no consensus among those guys either. It was very clear that yrpua and I did not agree on the moral questions around applying Game, as he stated clearly that he is in favor of anything that works, and opposed to that which doesn’t. Efficacy without ethics is a dangerous thing, IMO.
Personally, I don’t care whether bloggers are in relationships or not. Since mine is a blog about relationships and how to get them, I have little use for guys focusing on how to get sex while avoiding them. I don’t hate them, I just have nothing in common with them. It’s exactly the same way I feel about sex-positive feminists. Those aren’t the people I’m writing for.
Obsidian,
My objection is the claim that women are exclusively attracted to (so-called) Alpha males …
You can test it yourself if you’re lucky enough to be an uncle to a child under 6, but demonstrating comfort and skill with young children is generally highly attractive with women; and there have been studies to demonstrate that women are the most attracted to men for LTR who are the most interested in having children ( http://www.naturalchild.org/research/women_attracted.html ). The most successful experiences I ever had with women was when I took my 3 year old niece to the mall and had women practically throw themself at me.
If women are attracted to these men for traits that are obviously not “alpha” it demonstrates “alpha” isn’t everything …
It is my personal believe that both men and women determine what kind of relationship they’re worthy of at an emotional level and the qualities and attributes they find attractive in members of the opposite sex reflect this. Being that it is an emotional decision and not an intellectual decision they may not consciously aware of this decision. Women who feel unworthy of commitment seek out men who are unwilling or unable to provide commitment (so called Alpha males); women who desire and feel worthy of commitment seek out men who can provide it for them (so called Beta males).
Women who want a LTR but do not have any prospects may seek out a short term partner, and women who want a sort term partner but can no longer get an acceptable one may enter into a LTR, but both of these situations are remarkably rare for women with substantial SMV. It has been my experience that few LTR oriented women will leave their current relationship unless they have one (or more) prospects first
@peppermint panda:
I would like to know, precisely, which pua/game writer has specifically stated, that being good with kids is NOT a alpha male trait? Please explain?
I very much would like to see that quote…
O.
@ms walsh:
If you are indeed struck by the difference in my approach, it is because i refused to limit myself to a small but admittedly vociferous corner of the internet and instead decided to right to the source and heart of game to know precisely what i was talking about/doing and why. It seems that a lot of people have their minds made up not just about certain sectors of the internet but about game itself and seem to like those aspects of the internet because they kind of confirm what they really want to believe about game in the first place.
Moreover i find your remarks about yrpua to be interesting since women do the exact same thing you claim hes asserted; how many women-and that includes the many who makeup your reader base-have put efficacy over ethics in their own dating lives? How many women have lied about their age? How many women have presented either no pics or deceiving/misleading ones of themselves in online dating venues? How many of them have told an unwanted suitor that they had a boyfriend when in truth they didnt just so they could get rid of them? How many have given out false phone numbers? And of course how many have accepted meals/drinks from guys knowing full well they werent going to reciprocate sexually?
It occurs to me that the chief and major reason why women are so deadly focused on “deception” and “manipulation” is because of just how much they engage in it themselves all the time in ways big or small-yet they dont seem to be all that interested in discussing it and when they do its always with an air of “yeah, but…”. There is no “but” if the goal is decency and fairness and justice. Clearly though by all accounts we cant say this.
O.
I think it’s a great if a woman takes the initiative and asks out a guy she is interested in. I do that all the time or else I’d never date a man who likes me because of shared interests and personality. At this point, every long term relationship has come out of me either asking the guy to coffee, or just giving encouragement (acting interested in them). Yes, a man can refuse, but the more a woman looks, the more she is able to pick out the men who would be compatible with her personality.
@Obsidian
One of the reasons I hate the Alpha/Beta false dichotomy is because there are no clear definitions of what it means …
On one hand you have evolutionary psychology mental masturbation where an Alpha male is the supposed leader to a theoritical despotic tribe that we have no evidence to suggest that ever existed; and there are no known tribal cultures that match it. And, on the other hand, we have people who describe an Alpha male as (essentially) being a man with self confidence.
Those that prescribe to the despotic leader favour a variety of qualities that demonstrate physical and social dominance to lead to being in an elite male; and these qualities are in no way compatible with being good with children.
In contrast, the self confidence definition is more correctly labeled an “emotionally healthy male” rather than an Alpha male because it does not demonstrate that you are elite … Most men throughout history would have had self confidence because they lived in a society where they were a respected member of society with a clear purpose simply for surviving to adulthood.
@ms walsh:
Also, what “recent debates” are you referring to? Was i a part of said “recent debates”? And given that roissy/ferd/mras dont seem all that terribly interested in the aims and interests you have, you have yet to clearly answer WHY do you spend such an inordinate amount of time discussing them. If youre not interested in what yrpua has offered due to their supposed (you dont know because you havent
checked it out) interest in commitment free sex, why are you so interested in a corner of the internet that has the same intent and goal presumably? It doesnt add up.
Moreover i see you conflating misogyny with anti feminism and both with mraism and im not sure thats a good idea. One can be both and not the other two and so on. More precision is needed here.
Im just having trouble why you spend so much time on a piece of the internet that by your own admission has little if anything to do with your own stated mission.
Please explain why this is?
O.
@peppermint panda:
Im still having trouble with your presentation because you have yet to precisely identify specific voices within the seduction community that you take issue with. As for evopsych stuff, buss is highly recognized in that sphere. If you disagree with him please point out specifically where how and why?
Thanks!
O.
@Hope
That’s true, Simon Baron-Cohen has studied autism extensively, and calls it an “extreme male brain,” referring to prenatal exposure. I wonder how that relates to heavy exposure during puberty. While there are exceptions, one rarely hears about a nerdy athlete or thug physicist.
I confess I know little about testosterone exposure, in terms of timing, levels, and in response to different kinds of activities. I wonder if there’s one source that talks about all the different aspects.
I’ve actually heard stories of high school knuckleheads rejecting girls because “Stacey likes me and everybody thinks she’s super hot, so I’m going to choose her.”
I’m sure that most of the female posters here have been on the receiving end of that. I know I have.
I confess I know little about testosterone exposure, in terms of timing, levels, and in response to different kinds of activities.
IME, testosterone makes young men between 13-16 insufferable little punks in response to any kind of activity suggested by a parent. Not sure what else there is to know.
I think that female attraction triggers vary quite a bit here, probably dependent on the intelligence of the female herself. I don’t think the sex was bad with my bf because he wasn’t bright – I think it was his lack of emotion. In my experience, the best sex happens when two people are really into one another, including the emotional piece. I’ve always claimed that a person can learn everything they need to know about good sex in one weekend with a partner they’re crazy about (and vice versa). It’s the ability to anticipate, read and and give to the other person that sets off fireworks. And IME that just isn’t possible with a stranger or someone who’s not emotionally connected. Even though men are more capable of separating the emotional and physical experiences, I always got my best reviews from men I knew very well. That’s also why sex gets better for new couples after the first couple of times, I’d imagine. The first time is never the best.
I agree 100%. I can’t speak for other women, but I expect to be held to account for any deceitful or manipulative behavior. And I won’t excuse women for doing any of the things you mention. I don’t mean to suggest that either sex has cornered the market on manipulative tactics.
However, for the record, I will say that a woman gives up more when she is deceived into having sex – a permanent blot on her record, so to speak – than a man who gets flaked on, buys an expensive dinner, etc. In fact, IMO there’s no comparison.
@Rachel
Welcome, thanks for commenting. It sounds like you’re already doing it right!
Because they come here in droves and I have to deal with them. I could make my life easier – much easier – by banning them. Instead I choose to censor only those who are rude and uncivil in their communication.
As for recent debates, no they did not include you, but I’ve been fending off the haters with determination for months now. No need to dredge all that up, just suffice to say I’ve felt surrounded at times here at HUS by men who would defend their right to instill dread, even in marriage. Fortunately, I believe that is in the past, and the air is safe to breathe again.
Obsidian,
Point me to any voice in the PUA community that could not be summarized with either:
1) Work on your own shit, develop self confidence, and find a purpose to your life (I generally agree with this, David DeAngelo was like this); for the most part “Alpha male” has no place in these discussions.
2) Mental masturbation about evolutionary psychology and mythical despotic tribes (these people are morons, Mystery was big into this and it is a constant theme of bloggers)
3) Trick and tactic based … (this is worthwhile to learn basic flirting, and basic discussions of kino have value, but this is mostly driven by people trying to avoid getting their shit together. There are countless videos on youtube focused directly on this).
Ultimately, I think the vast majority of men looking for help would be better off with a basic education in flirting and kino to go along with substantial confidence building; and the community should drop the mental masturbation and elitest bullshit.
Most men would be better off being asked “What is your greatest insecurity at this point in time?” and then developing a battle-plan to combat that insecurity. If they are afraid to go to clubs because they can’t dance, teach them how to dance. If they think that they are too out of shape get them into a gym and teach them how to dress themself to minimize physical flaws. and so on …
As much as I think David DeAngelo is among the best for this kind of stuff his focus on NLP and guru-isms dilutes the core message.
On the other hand, Mystery’s focus on mental masturbation and tactics makes him (in my opinion) the worst popular voice.
In my experience, the best sex happens when two people are really into one another, including the emotional piece.
Cosigned.
It’s the ability to anticipate, read and and give to the other person that sets off fireworks. And IME that just isn’t possible with a stranger or someone who’s not emotionally connected.
I’ve never had sex with anyone who wasn’t bright, but my vibe is that ability to do that comes with intelligence. i always picture less bright guys as just hammering away.
That’s also why sex gets better for new couples after the first couple of times, I’d imagine. The first time is never the best.
I think this is also why in a good marriage, sex gets better with the years. I had expected that aging would affect sex a lot, but I think the years of imtimacy and just knowing each other really offset aging a lot.
However, for the record, I will say that a woman gives up more when she is deceived into having sex – a permanent blot on her record, so to speak – than a man who gets flaked on, buys an expensive dinner, etc. In fact, IMO there’s no comparison.
Cosigned. I’m surprised that men don’t understand this more.
@Susan/Cooper
“I disagree. Her fiance clearly makes her tingle and has from the start. She makes clear she was rather surprised to hear he had a lower N than she did, and that he had never been casual. When she figured that out, she was clearly anxious to keep the truth from him about her own past.”
The problem isn’t just whether or not the tingle is real based on whether it is an alpha/beta thing, it is more about her ability and intent to separate sex (even specific sex acts) and relationships and what that implies: settling (down).
While I go back and forth on how rare this situation really is overall, I can say I have experienced this situation multiple times. These situations can involve the wild sex past (though I’ve never had a woman admit to this) and sometimes it is a post-divorce-college-breakup fuck everything that moves experience, sometimes it is purely about #’s, and sometimes its about the ‘types’ of men they have chosen. In my admittedly limited recent experience, I’ve seen versions of these 100% (4 for 4) of the time. This includes women between 24 and 39. All of them had ridden the carousel at some point in the past. Most were not even alpha chasing or whatever, but still strung together combinations of ONS, fuck buddies, and vacation flings in at least one span of being single. All of them represented as conservative in terms of dating, physical progression, etc. And were very sweet, relationship-oriented women. I believed (and still do) that they really do value relationships and intimacy, but from my perspective that was not enough to overcome the sense that I was fulfilling the settle-down-and-breed role after they were done ‘having fun’.
I have no doubt that I tingled all the right things so my thoughts weren’t focused so much on whether or not I made them tingle *more* vs their past, but the more I learned about their pasts – and how incongruent they were with not only my past choices, but what they expressed in terms of their own values/desires – what they want NOW, the more I became suspect of the underlying origins of that tingle.
For me it was not so much about the honesty of what they felt for me, because I really do think they found me to be a ‘catch’ and I think I consider myself beta, when in fact I may have more natural alpha than I realize. In any case, perhaps women re-calibrate such that they can have the same level of tingle over a very different man/circumstance. Either way, there was never a doubt that I didn’t curl their toes. It was more about the rising tide of resentment that happens when you sense that they (perhaps too easily) have shifted between sex for fun and sex for keeps – and/or that they can even consider the concepts of “fun” and “settling down” as mutually exclusive. Or that they have represented a take-it-slow, good-girl approach when in fact they have been “fingered on the dance floor” or “done the walk of shame” or “used to be a slut” or “had a period of about 1 year when I was having sex but not interested in relationships [read: ONS], but never two guys at the same time” (lol), and lastly that the values I hold relative to intimacy and relationships really don’t matter that much. The fact that they have been – and since they wrongly pegged me as at least a former – if not current lady’s man, are obviously still ‘ok’ with guys who have rather extensive casual sex histories is not lost on me.
The strange thing is that I’m not one to really press for information about the past. Most of the stuff was volunteered. Partly because they assume I have done it and partly because they have been told that it is hip or cool or attractive or empowering or whatever to be able to go toe-to-toe with guys in this kind of stuff.
So I think part of the disconnect is from the feeling that my past choices are not valued as much as I want them to be – I want it to mean something that I have subordinated immediate gratification among many other things for the long-term. And a big part of it is that fun/settling dilemma. The latter of which seems to become more complicated with age. So early on men are not just looking for reasons to disqualify a women as relationship material, we are also looking for indications that we are not just auditioning for a role in the second act of some play. I can say that particularly in the 30 and older crowd – and definitely in men who have been through a divorce, the antennae are tall and tuned to look for indications of settling. For right or wrong, the segregation of sex acts, the flipping switch of views/beliefs/actions re: casual sex, and any outright statements regarding ‘settling down’ or ‘wild’ pasts will get us tingling, in all the wrong ways. Now I think the situation is greatly amplified if she also has a tendency toward the alpha asshat, but I don’t think that is what drives the issue.
I could be way off here, but I think the issue is less about the Alpha=tingle and more about that sense of settling down; the fun=past.
I’ve never had sex with anyone who wasn’t bright, but my vibe is that ability to do that comes with intelligence. i always picture less bright guys as just hammering away.
I had a gay male friend that told me that to cure my “ability to control myself” I should have had sex with a brute. According to him those are the best. I never got it.
@ms walsh:
Yes we absolutely agree that women pay a much higher price to have sex-no argument there-and if women were just to be honest about that, that this fact informs why theyre so much more focused on “deception” and “manipulation” on the part of men (ie game etc) that would be something i, for one, could respect and live with.
But, you see, the big problem is that they dont frame it in that way; they frame it in terms of whats ethical or not-not what is self-serving, even if whats self-serving is completely understandable.The bottomline is, the women engage in deceptive and manipulative behavior directly arising out of their sexuality and exploiting mens susceptibility to it, yet they simply dont see that as big deal because, as you noted, it aint that big deal to men. That may be, but the principle of ethics IS important and on this measure i can be very confident in saying that overall women simply do not care about ethics as much as they claim they do. They care about men being ethical simply because women have more to lose.
Two big different things and its very important to make that distinction; its also very important why men in particular, MUST hold women accountable when they try this kind of crap.
Game teaches a man how and when to stand up for himself, for principle and for the rule of law.
O.
Great post, Tasmin
“there was never a doubt that I didn’t curl their toes. It was more about the rising tide of resentment that happens when you sense that they (perhaps too easily) have shifted between sex for fun and sex for keeps – and/or that they can even consider the concepts of “fun” and “settling down” as mutually exclusive.”
“So early on men are not just looking for reasons to disqualify a women as relationship material, we are also looking for indications that we are not just auditioning for a role in the second act of some play.”
And for young man, it’s like all the girls aren’t finished having fun yet (be use their entitled to ‘their’ fun) – as if the “marriage material” guys should have no issue with waiting for the ‘Act II’ to begin.
Why do some people (and I think there is both men and women) think that there is some sort of fun that must be had before committing to a relationship?
The mentality just presumes casual=youthful fun, and LTR=boring/ ‘save-it-for-later’ – the mentality in of itself kinda determines that the person won’t be happy in a LTR, cause once they choose to be in a relationship they’ve, in a way, consciously chose what they already consider “boring”.
No wonder some people get bored in their marrigewhen they always thought of everything else as the “fun.”
Maybe it’s just because of my parents, who married at 19 and spent 15 years having fun together before having children, but why do people figure they can’t have ‘fun’ in a relationship?
Recently, someone posted a link about this –and when I dug through the numbers, what the story said was that ****10%****of divorced women weren’t in love when they got married. That’s 4% of women who marry and less than 2% of college educated women. The numbers just don’t add up to support the claim. Of course, if you’re the poor bastard whose wife has confessed that, it sucks
Susan, that was me that posted that link. Here is that link again….the percentage is 30% not 10%
http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/married-wrong-husband
Thirty percent of now-divorced women say they knew it was wrong from the start.
As far as the “ride the carousel in your 20s with alphas and settle for a beta later” meme, I’ll quote Ms. Jennifer Gauvain from the article:
“Then there’s the usual suspect: the biological clock. Clark’s was ticking and she was ready to start a family. “The number 30 reads like an expiration date for unmarried women,” says Gauvain. Not only are your baby-making years racing by, ****but you’re leaving behind your 20s —a decade of experimentation, one-night stands,**** and making mistakes, professionally and personally. In the next decade, you’re seen as an adult and can’t do those things.”
That is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak. I can’t say to what extent Ms. Gauvain speaks for the prevailing attitude of most women. My guess is the number is smaller than most manosphere bloggers espouse, yet much larger than what you appear to believe in terms of what percentage the meme accurately captures.
About ethics and relationships/gender dynamics, I have never resorted to lying or deception, and I don’t like it when other people do it to me.
- Lied about age or weight: no.
- Presented misleading pictures online: no.
- Said I had a boyfriend when I didn’t: no.
- Gave out false phone numbers: no.
- Accepted meals/drinks from guys without sexual intention: no.
I tried to be honest, forthright and open with prospective men, particularly when things got more serious. I volunteered information about my past, and I’ve never had a guy say after the fact, “You never told me that!” I did not spring surprises on people like that.
When other people say “anything goes” and play selfish and dark games, I just shrug and move on. It’s not worth trying to convert people who pefer to be that way. Men who dig my goodie goodie vibe dig it quite a lot, so it was a win-win situation for me.
To illustrate my last point a field report will suffice:
I once got into a ticklish situation with a young lady whom i had designs on; after observing her for a few months i made my patented approach, and we met for lunch almost every day, in full view of everyone else where we were, for about a month before i stepped off for a few weeks; when i returned, she hugged me (full body i could feel her nipples, her pelvis to mine) and, she kissed me on the cheek-twice. Again in full view of everyone else.
I suggested that we should keep in touch and she requested my number which i gave. She then gave me hers.
About a week later i took her by the hand and led her away from a group of people she was talking to; and thats when things went downhill.
She tried coming at me with the friendzone crap but i busted her with the fact that we always sat/ate alone, that none of the other fellas had her number, that no one saw her hug/kiss other guys and, that all our interactions were caught live on tape (the place had cameras). Strange behavior for a gal who swears up and down not to dig a guy like that hmm?
She tried to argue that i had overstepped my bounds by assuming that i wanted something more; indeed she asked me “did i ever say i was interested in you?”.
To which i responded: no, you didint. But you didnt say upfront that you just wanted to be platonic friends either. Why must i not assume one interaction, but the other?
She was so livid about my questions, my catching her in her bs and my *refusal to backdown or apologize for showing sexual interest and then escalating it* that she actually tried to get me fired (this took place at work). The problem with that though, was that i was very careful to do everything in clear view of others (witnesses) in front of the security cameras (video evidence) and to carefully document everything on my phone (saved all texts).
The result?
My mgr-a woman-flatout told the woman that she wasnt going to fire me, in part because i had no bad record w/women, that the woman in question didnt have any authority whatsoever in hiring/firing anyone, and that the mgr herself witnessed on numerous occasions this woman and i hanging together in what any reasonable person had to conclude was more than just a “friendly” way.
The lady was determined though-she hectored the director of hr until he came to me. I and my mgr relayed what happened, and he smiled. He said that she was and i quote, a “whack job” and dont sweat it; i wasnt going to be fired.
And i wasnt. I worked there another half a year until i got a new assignment.
She expected me to go all beta and apoligize for being a man; moreover she thought that because she was a dime that i would let her getaway with murder.
She was wrong on both those counts as well as being wrong about trying to get me fired.
Which makes her a three time loser.
O.
I should have had sex with a brute.
Eeeeewwwwww.
Eeeeewwwwww.
My thoughts exactly. :p
Tasmin – spot on post. Brilliant.
@Cooper
I think that women don’t change their attraction triggers, they change their own behavior, or strategy. So the ex was someone she found attractive, and in her mindset then, i.e. what she was willing to do, she went along with threesomes, etc. Then she decided to “settle down.” We know that the first guy was sexually adventurous – but that’s not how I define alpha. He could be a total creep. The second guy was ostensibly equally attractive, but did not choose promiscuity – but that’s not how I define beta. IOW, it’s a mistake to assume the first guy was more attractive than the second. In fact, I suspect the reverse is true, which is why she is so upset that she’s blown it. This is a quality guy, and before how she’s been with skanky losers.
I think the ‘sphere definition of alpha is “everything that I am not.”
@Mike C
Thanks for refreshing my memory. Yes, the number was 30% of women have doubts when they walked down the aisle. But if you read the article, two thirds of the examples reflect not that the woman was not in love, but that she feared her fiance was an asshole who would not be faithful. That’s a very different story. One can certainly question the wisdom of those women for marrying cads, but it hardly supports the claim that women marry men they don’t tingle for. If a third of the women with doubts have them because they are not in love, that’s 10% of divorced women and 4% of women who marry.
Great strategy here! It’s a filter and a built in reinforcement. I believe that the vast majority of men will reward this behavior.
@ali
“Reading these comments makes me want to be a white woman. Unlimited sex, pickup men easily, desired by every race, have kids with black, white, hispanic men and still end up with a nice guy when im done partying at 40. Happily ever after. If that doesnt work, since I have been with so many men, I will adopt a baby from Africa. White women sure have it easy”
I resent that statement lol
white women do not have it easy, esp. now that asian women are the new “trophy wives”, and white women got a bad rap because of their promiscuity.
Then again, I live in Toronto, Canada, where we have many immigrants esp. from asia. I don’t know the population situation wherever you are.
But yeah, I resent that statement–yes, black women have it harder (I don’t know about middle eastern ones). But things are not easy for me. not when I have to compete with asian girls that don’t need diet to stay skinny lol and whose hair is longer and thicker than mine. Plus, only beautiful women have it easy, regardless of race.
lol I wish I didn’t have to live, because I’m not beautiful.
@ms walsh, @peppermint panda:
Ms walsh it occurs to me that your life *would* have been much easier had you simply deleted/banned the “manosphere invasion” since by your own admission their message had little to do with yours here at hus; it then remains something of a mystery as to why you would continue to entertain such a large group of people for so long when they are fundamentally out of step with that youre all about. It just doesnt add up.
Peppermint, you seem to have deepseated problems with pickup that go beyond mere academic stuff; wanna talk about it? I for one find nothing whatsoever wrong with using routines, canned openers/lines and the like-ive used quite a few on purpose myself-to prove the efficacy of pickup both to myself and to others. I dont rely on them exclusively but i do make use of them quite a bit. I like the fact that game has a linear, step by step program that guys can use to get what it is they want from women. Why is dangelo better than mystery to you? I say its the other way around.
O.
@ms hope @ms walsh:
Whats interesting about ms hopes statement/defence is the fact that she felt compelled to make it in light of the fact that by her account she is a happily married woman. Of course all women dont do what i said just like all men dont rape; yet women are hugely concerned about rape to the extent that we have now all but eradicated certain forms of it and other forms are in considerable decline. Can we say the same about the myriad of ways women engage in all manner of deceptive and manipulative sexual behaviors aimed towards men though? To ask the question is to answer it.
The idea that because women pay a higher price in terms of having sex it is therefore understandable why they focus more on deception and manipulation from men is not a legitimate reason as to why women and by extension society fails indeed refuses to take principles of ethics fairness decency and justice seriously especially as it relates to men. If a man buys an expensive dinner for a woman and she doesnt sexually reciprocate its seen by woman as the guys own failure to do his homework or being slow on the uptake. But if a woman puts herself in a bad situation at a frat party and winds up in a sexual situation shes viewed as a victim no matter what. As ive illustrated earlier women can and will attempt to use their sexuality to get away with things that if you dont call them on it will only get worse. Buss talks about just how often women exploit male sexual psychology all the time in his textbook for evopsych for students. As ive said the primary reason why women focuses so much on “deception” and the like is both because of the cost they pay in making a bad decision coupled with the fact that they as a group overall engage in such things themselves. Outliers like ms hope-commendable though they may doesnt change this fact anymore than my never having raped a woman doesnt change the fact that the issue was vitally important to them.
So long as women as a group continue to find excuses as to why they dont take the concerns of men seriously ms walsh will continue to find her space “invaded” by the manosphere if not literally then in terms of their ideas continually seeping into this forum. Women as a group simply do not take principles of ethics sriously if they did they wouldnt do the things they do. They arent punished by the wider society nor are they punished by their social circle of friends. They arent called out on the carpet by other women and to be frank they arent called out by other men either. Men take being defrauded as seriously as women take being sexually deceived and it too has evolutionary roots. Why should we take the latter more seriously than the other? On what ethical basis does this line of thinking rest?
O.
@Susan
“So the ex was someone she found attractive, and in her mindset then, i.e. what she was willing to do, she went along with threesomes, etc. Then she decided to “settle down.” We know that the first guy was sexually adventurous – but that’s not how I define alpha. He could be a total creep. The second guy was ostensibly equally attractive, but did not choose promiscuity – but that’s not how I define beta. IOW, it’s a mistake to assume the first guy was more attractive than the second. In fact, I suspect the reverse is true, which is why she is so upset that she’s blown it. This is a quality guy, and before how she’s been with skanky losers.”
I agree that it isn’t as simple as which guy was more attractive or who is alpha or beta. It is about the inconsistency or highly variant, malleable nature of her behaviors, e.g. “went along with threesomes”, “sexually adventurous”and/or “skanky loser” ex-BF’s or FWB or ONS partners, etc. that make it very difficult for a man with more consistent behaviors, choices, and thus values to reconcile what she really believes and desires with what he brings to the relationship (let alone her own past actions).
But it should be noted that even if the alpha/beta thing isn’t the primary driver, there is definitely going to be some feeling of alpha-deficiency based on the fact that other men have “inspired” or “coerced” her into being “sexually adventurous”. Sexual or otherwise, men want to feel like they are the one who inspire. Whether it is as innocent as “trying new things” or sexually “experimenting” or other “adventurous” behaviors, men want to feel like they are the one. If not the one, at the very least one of… Which is why the next guy was pushing for some crazy shit too. It wasn’t that he wanted those things, but it was that he wanted to feel that he had the same kind of dominance, attraction, influence, appeal that the ex did.
What happens is that he is left feeling that his choices, behaviors, beliefs have been devalued by her past choices and that he is lacking something – attraction or otherwise, that she (potentially) once valued more than whatever he brings. She can’t possibly value his choices as highly because she has indicated via actual behavior that those qualities are not rated very highly in making her choices. Even if she had to experience those things, those (possibly) skanky losers in order to solidify her preferences, beliefs, values – understand her attraction triggers, he will still have enough question/doubt about (a) whether or not she is done “learning”, (b) whether or not she really does care about his past choices, and (c) what other things has she – or will she need to learn through experience alone? that whatever seed of lagging confidence he had going in will sprout up in shoots of resentment through every crack in the relationship until one or both of them bring it to ruin. In terms of this relationship, she paid a very high price for her experience, but she will be better served finding someone with a more comparable past or that rare guy who just doesn’t care. I’m certainly not one, but I know they are out there. Though the ones I know tend to view sex as a sport; and they are all on varsity.
The other thing that he knows, as most men do, is that most women do not need to “go along with a threesome” or string together spans of casual sex and/or loser-BF’s in order to figure out what they want and value. Sure, the more I talk with women about this stuff the more I realize just how few women take the time to understand their own motivations, let alone ponder the experiences of the men they seek (present company excluded), but that is a long way from getting schooled in the art of introductory gang-banging by a (maybe) loser. So he will not only feel that she is settling for him, but also that perhaps he is doing some settling himself. You see, he either has to lower the value of his own beliefs – how he has aligned his actions with his beliefs in the past or he has to devalue her based on her past actions that support a low price/value for intimacy. Thats the mind-F. Its a lose-lose.
That makes sense, and I imagine much marital infidelity meets this description. But I think very few women are wired to pursue casual sex as an end in itself. It may happen (oops!) but that’s not the same as going out to acquire a ONS.
I think you may have misunderstood me a little. I am specifically not referring to women who openly pursue casual sex or occasionally engage in one-night stands. These are not sluts. I am referring to the women of good reputation who, for one reason or another, do not want it to become public knowledge that they are having sex with a higher rank man without a commitment. This can be for reasons of education, career, infidelity, or even to just hide it from their beta orbiters; I have seen all four. “Secret relationship” is a better description than one-night stand as it is almost never just the one night and it is usually a known player that she has known for at least a little while.
And some women will even continue these right up until their weddings. By which I mean showing up late at night after her own bachelorette party. There is one area where Roissy is absolutely right and everyone else has it wrong: most genuine alphas can tell you stories about well-regarded, supposedly well-behaved women that would cause most women and BETAs to curl up in a fetal position and refuse to get out of bed. The dark alpha’s contempt for and distrust of women in general isn’t always born out of misogyny or personal issues, but rather direct personal experience.
Is it always justified? Of course not. But remember this: while the skilled tempter may be blind to women’s strengths and convictions and will be prone to misjudging women because of that, he always sees the weaknesses very, very clearly and knows how to play upon them. Not all women will succumb, but, and here is the key point, all are at least potentially vulnerable. Most especially those who believe they are not.
You may not be vulnerable today. But you may be just a bad breakup, a disappointment at work, or even a rainy day away from being vulnerable tomorrow. And that handsome, charming predator with the slightly too-knowing eyes is always ready should that day come….
@vd:
I dont know if you saw my series of questions on profiling to ms sassy or not but they were inspired by the exchange btw you two; she seemed to take great offence (the lady doth protest just a weebit too much?) at your “profiling” which even if wrong in her specific case(?) wasnt wrong in the aggregate.
How do i know?
Because, while i dont know or will in all likelihood ever to meet you in this life or the next, i do know that what you said to ms sassy, and your followup comments above about a “good womans” “secret loves” is 100% TRUE. And thats the big huge problem that so many women here either cant or wont get through their heads; indeed thats why ms walsh keeps getting “invaded” by elements of the manosphere-because theres a there, there.
I can tell everyone here that some of thee most freakiest women ive ever had in my life, were the socalled “good girls”-church girls most especially. Nor am i alone-just about every guy here will either have directly experienced what im talking about, or knows a guy who did. “the bridges of madison county” just aint a quaint book/movie dontcha know.
So, just wanted to give you dap on that and mad props for daring to speak on the truth brother. Keep on keepin on!
O.
I think that a lot of women screw up by failing to do this – Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.
I’ve stopped asking out women after a couple of dates despite liking them if they behaved like they weren’t that interested only to later find out long after that they really were interested. Some women don’t seem to understand that their “phone games” really piss men off – if you like a guy, answer the phone when he calls or return his call within a reasonably prompt manner. If a woman doesn’t do this, she needs to realize that most men will take this as a sign of disinterest.
@Obs
Well, you’re someone who enjoys a good debate, and we have certainly had some interesting ones here. Also, the truth is that some of my best commenters of both sexes found me via the ‘sphere. In fact, more than a few found me via Roissy. Go figure. Some have been hostile, but most have been great additions to HUS. It makes sense that men trying to puzzle out the SMP might read both Heartiste and HUS, and I don’t want to draw such a clear line in the sand that those guys feel unwelcome.
It’s taken me a while to learn who to engage and who to ignore. Who to allow, e.g. yrpua, and who to ban. Since my slow progress in this area hurt no one but myself, I don’t feel the need to apologize or explain any further.
@Tasmin
I cosign your entire comment.
Agreed, and just to be clear, I would advise any man against investing in that woman. As you say, I believe only a small minority of women would ever entertain the idea of a threesome (which is not to deny that in certain circles, many would). That’s one hell of a red flag, and should be a dealbreaker, IMO.
My only point to Cooper was that this scenario is not necessarily a case of snagging a provider after she’s had her fun, as she seems genuinely attracted to and invested in the fiance. She doesn’t deserve him – she lied when he asked if any of her past actions might become an embarrassment. Considering that it came to light because the ex is in the same social circle (!!!) she was bound to be found out. I’m glad he learned before marrying her.
@VD
I agree totally on the vulnerability of women to skilled tempters. And of course I’m horrified to hear of a woman who would be carrying on as she’s preparing to wed.
Shortly after I graduated from college, Mary, one of my best friends got engaged to her college bf Bill (it was 1978, and this still happened occasionally). I was to be one of her bridesmaids. One night at around midnight, there was a knock on the door of my apartment. It was Bill, who I also knew, explaining that his car had broken down nearby and asking if he could crash on the couch and deal with it in the morning. Of course I said yes and made up the couch with pillow and blankets.
I was awakened in the middle of the night when he crawled into my bed. Horrified (and frightened) I bolted upright and asked what the hell he was doing. He confessed the whole thing had been a ruse, and that he “needed” to have sex with me before he gave up other women forever. He unabashedly attempted to persuade me of this plan. I threw him out.
I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband. They had five kids and have been married 44 years.
@Kurt
The book The Rules was instrumental in inspiring women to play endless mind games and pretend to be the least interested party just so that men could “enjoy the chase.” I hate to think how many relationships were sacrificed due to that stupid book.
Tasmin – Two for two. You have explained very clearly and intelligently what I’ve always wanted to put out there from my perspective. Seriously, you could have pulled that right from my brain.
I don’t think women realize just how seriously some men take promiscuity. The only men I know that are more sexually conservative than I am are devoutly religious, to give you an idea of where my head is. I passed on opportunities to have casual encounters (and I don’t mean didn’t engage, I mean turned down direct requests for sex) even when single because it is something I am deeply against in principle. Then along comes a women that “had her fun” and she wonders why I might be upset by her past. I’m upset because her behavior not only goes against my own beliefs, but as you pointed out, there is a concern that her behavior devalues mine if I stay with her, because it means that even though I chose to abstain, she didn’t. And yet by staying with her I’m OKing her past, which to me negates all my past sacrifices. And even worse, I’m selling my values out for someone else.
And it doesn’t get any easier as we get older. Women in their 30′s have been there done that, and then some.
Susan, for whatever it is worth, I basically see this happen a fair amount today…but not in the same way.
What I have seen, so far, are people date in college, keep dating for a few years afterward, and then get engaged in their mid-to-late 20′s.
I mean, for many of them, even if they wanted to get engaged right after college, they basically would not have been able to afford to do anything anyway.
=====================
It seems like Bill was a head of his time. I mean, if you are going to be a douche bag, you might as well go all in.
” (and I don’t mean didn’t engage, I mean turned down direct requests for sex)”
LOL I reread this and it sounds very much like I’m bragging. I literally turned down two direct “have sex with me” type requests from women I’ve known. One was a semi-decent young girl that had some serious self-esteem issues and I think she just wanted the idea of a “good guy” to want her. The other was a VERY promiscuous women that was part of my extended circle of friends. She heard that I was newly single (after one of my LTRs ended) and had been recently “dumped” (I don’t know how she could have been dumped, according to her last FB she was only a piece of ass for him…) by a cad/PUA type and I found myself alone with her at the end of the night. She came on to me like a drunken sailor, and I finally just had to tell her there was NO WAY I was having sex with her. When she reached for my crotch I left.
Sorry if I gave the impression that I ever had to beat women off with a stick. Like I’ve said before, I have been in LTRs since I was 16 years old, and the longest stretch I’ve been without a relationship is about 9 months. I never tried to “play the field” and never pursued anything casual because I don’t morally approve of it and for the most part didn’t spend much time going without sex in general. (in fact, I probably spent more time in my marriage with little to no sex than I did prior to getting married…)
“I think the ‘sphere definition of alpha is “everything that I am not.””
Meh.
Look, there is no point in debating which bloggers who claim to be alphas actually are and which are lying. It’s not relevant. What’s relevant is their arguments.
I’ve said before that much of what they are saying is something any non-moronic boy figures out for himself no later than 7th grade. At that age you generally know which boys around you the girls go for, which they shun, and which they “friendzone.” From those specifics you can generalize into types. And you know in your bones which type you are.
So, yes, alphas are “exciting” for one reason or another. Staying with 7th grade for the moment, the boy with straight As and the good conduct award ain’t that. The kid in detention half the year … yeah, probably.
Your guy, to circle back, sounds to me only superficially alpha. He had the looks and the conventional success but he lacked the behavior. It’s almost tautological to say that anyone who bores a woman the way he bored you, sexually and otherwise, can’t truly be alpha.
Susan – “I think you’d be hard pressed to find 10% of parents of college females who would feel good about their daughter up and moving to wherever Johnny gets a job. I know I wouldn’t have.”
Well then this is where we part ways ideologically. I would MUCH rather my daughter pick up and move to a new area with a good man at her side, than to stay around me and struggle to find a decent guy to be with. Now I will say that before I would be OK with it, I would want to see some real commitment between them, ideally marriage. I don’t see what the fear here is? What is the worst that might happen? They may not work out, and she may find herself alone in a strange place. So what? Move home and start again. I will never understand why people get so tied down to a place that they make their own lives more difficult.
If your daughter found a good guy, one that you honestly like, and he found a job out of state, you would be against her moving to be with him and possibly get married, settle down, the whole thing? I guess we really do put our priorities in different places. It seems to me that as long as they really are committed to each other, it makes sense for them to live where they can make the most money, not where they are close to their past. And sometimes it really is better to just go somewhere new and start over. They would need to depend on each other a good bit at first, and that should help foster a sense of closeness and bonding that might last a lifetime.
But I’m the type of person that isn’t too concerned with what my children “do” for money. For sure I want them to have enough to live the lifestyle they want with minimal stress, but I won’t be disappointed if one of them decides to put family before career. In fact, in some ways, I hope they both do so. After all, your “career” only lasts until you die or retire. Your family lasts forever.
Escoffier, I can usually see where you are coming from, but, with this, I absolutely disagree. Personally, I didn’t even start thinking about these things until the 8th grade, let alone have it all figured out.
Also, in my experience, many of the cutest girls did not go for the “alphas”, but for the Zac Efron types.
Many of the Alpha-iest guys I knew in Junior High were thugs, and thugs don’t do all that well with the hottest chicks.
Ted, I understand that you were responding to an off-hand comment, but, Susan did not say that Johnny was a good man.
And, if this is happening right after college, we probably have never seen Johnny tested in the first place.
Ted, I want to add one more thing. “Struggling” to find a good man is not a bad thing is that is what she is genuinely doing. That is, she is actually working towards finding a good husband and father and not simply paying lip service to it while making excuses for her decisions (or making excuses for the idiot she is currently with).
I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.
Well I am much older and kids started to have crushes certainly by 7th grade back then. I can’t recall any parents who let pre-HS children actually date. But the more sophisticated or “fast” kids I grew up with were claiming to have BFs/GFs around that age, they just did not talk about it when adults were around.
I’m not saying we had it all figured out. I’m saying that by that age I knew a few basic things:
1) Which girls I thought were really pretty and hence was likely to have a crush on myself;
2) Which boys those girls were actually receptive to/interested in;
3) What those boys were like, character-wise and behavior-wise; e.g., they were good looking and athletic, by and large, but also they were cocky and outgoing. The latter traits seemed to help more, as we all knew some boys who were lousy at sports, not conventionally handsome, but in trouble all the time and “dangerous” in some way and the girls were all over them.
4) Where I fit on the hierarchy.
As I progressed through highschool, it all became clearer. We didn’t have the terms we have now but it’s quite easy to analyze it all in hindsight and see that it fits the game thesis very closely. With one huge exception, the girls were WAY less slutty.
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