It is a man’s job to sexually escalate with a woman he is attracted to. As women control access to sex, he risks rejection in his quest to get it. Indeed, if women are appropriately discerning in their choice of sexual partner, most men will be rejected most of the time. Even hard core players confess to a 90% failure rate. Their strategy is based on volume rather than quality of approaches.
Many women feel entitled to audition would-be lovers very selectively. If they experience a lack of attention – no guy shows up to audition – they blame men. If a guy does show up but decides not to stick around, he’s a douche. That’s not reasonable. You have no right to call a guy a jerk just because he doesn’t like you. Maybe you need to be more likable, or maybe you’re not compatible despite the initial chemistry.
The problem with this sense of entitlement is that it creates total passivity on the girl’s part. You don’t have very good control of your dating life if you are always waiting for a call or hoping the perfect guy is going to see you from across the room and say to his buddy, “See that girl in the red dress? I’m going to marry her.”
Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.
A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. Women want emotional intimacy during sex, but they have sex before creating a foundation of emotional connection. Doing that work is your job, not his. If you hope for commitment, it makes no sense to leave it to chance, dreaming that a guy will fall for you based on your looks alone, or because you’re good in bed. A man will offer commitment when he is sufficiently emotionally invested to make the tradeoff to forfeit sexual variety. Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.
How to Escalate Emotionally with a Man
1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him.
Evolutionary psychologist David Buss surveyed American men to ask them which traits they consider most important for long-term mating. Out of 67 named traits, the number one priority for men was sexual faithfulness. (This is why guys are judgmental about your number – it’s a proxy for predicted future behavior.) Reader Lokland shared a valuable personal insight:
In the intial dating phase (say 6 months) the guy will be subconsciously (potentially consciously) looking for reasons to rule you out as a girlfriend.
One of those disqualifiers would definitely be trying to garner attention from other males. Call them faithfulness tests which utilize a pass-fail system initially.
Biologists believe that jealousy evolved as a way for males to prevent being cuckolded by other men. Jealousy reduces the likelihood that a woman will cheat. However, men hate feeling jealousy. Many will end a relationship with a woman they’re crazy about if they feel jealous and insecure about her level of interest.
Too often, women rely on this tactic to enliven a man’s interest. At best, it’s a short-term solution. Good relationships are never made this way. Men at HUS have said repeatedly that they want a woman to be hard to get for everyone else and easy to get for them alone.
That means you need to go all in with exclusive interest before he does. He will only be exclusive with you after you have demonstrated that you are 100% exclusively focused on him.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
Reader Hope shared some excellent ways that a woman can show genuine interest in one particular man.
- Ask him about the things he enjoys. Indicate that you’d like to try some with him.
- Show that you care about the big picture stuff, like his work or school, but take the time to check in on the day to day. How was work today? How did your interview go?
- Have his back emotionally. Demonstrate that you are loyal and on his side.
- Get to know as much as you can about his family and friends. Give him strokes for being good to his mom, or being close with his siblings. Express interest in meeting his friends.
You need to calibrate your level of interest to suit the progression of the relationship. Don’t get way ahead of him, just draw him out gradually from the start to make your interest in him as a person clear. As Hope said, there is a risk here:
The problem is, I think most women who do open up find that they are emotionally investing as well, which can lead to irrational decision-making/hamsterwheeling if the guy turns out to be a rotten egg. : /
This is where women risk rejection. You can minimize your risk by screening carefully for traits that indicate he is a good guy who is open to a relationship. As Hope pointed out in a comment, sociopaths don’t open up emotionally – if you’re showing clear signs of emotional investment and he’s holding you at arm’s length, drive on. Another warning sign is when his behavior is inconsistent. He’s warm and cuddly when the two of you are alone together, then you meet up in a group and he avoids eye contact. No bueno.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
One of the ways that women bond and establish new friendships is by revealing vulnerabilities to one another. When a woman shares a confidence or asks advice from another woman, she is signaling that she likes her, trusts her, and wants to increase the intimacy in the relationship. Often the other female will respond in kind. This works with men too.
It can be a problem you want to talk out, or a request that he help you put your IKEA furniture together. We all like to be needed, and we increase our emotional connection to others when we do kind things for them. He will probably like you more if you give him the opportunity to help you out.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
Men love to be appreciated for their efforts and for investing in a woman, including monetarily. Too often women take men for granted when it comes to paying, or doing them favors (see IKEA request above). Reader J shared some great suggestions:
I think a woman can and should do the following things if they are an honest representation of her feelings:
1. Say thank you. (Sounds like nothing, but it’s actually huge.)
2. Say she enjoys being with the guy, is having a good time with him.
3. Give honest compliments.
4. Reciprocate the cost of dates with small favors, gifts of food, handmade items, etc. (Bake a cake, knit a sweater.)
5. Give presents for occasions like birthdays and anniversaries (the latter only if it is not too cloying or desperate looking.)
6. Be physically affectionate in non-sexual ways (hold hands, place head on shoulders or chest, etc)
7. Small acts of consideration. Ever see Chaz Palmentieri’s A Bronx Tale? The young narrator is told by a mobster that the test of whether or not a woman is a keeper is if she leans over to unlock the driver’s side door after the guy lets her in on the passenger side.IME, that’s the sort of thing that attracts guys who are looking for a wife or LTR.
5. Share a lust for life.
Hope again:
One thing that really gets guys going is a girl who is positive, full of life, and laughs a lot. A pretty girl smiling a genuinely happy smile as she looks into his eyes for a long time — that makes a man melt. I’ve never had a guy compliment me on my frown, but I have been told that my face lights up when I smile. A positive girl makes people around her feel more energized, which is very attractive. No needy, clingy, bitter, depressed or unhappy vibes.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.
Again, this is where the risk of rejection happens for women. That’s OK, because it’s your job in the mating dance. This is where you lead. Go out on a limb. Say what you need to say. This is the one that sealed the deal for me with my husband, by the way.
Reader Anacaona shared a great example of this. She had a strategy for meeting a man, and when she found one she liked, she made it very clear. Even though he was in another country, she made it easy for him to want to commit to her.
I was honest about how things were progressing for me. I sent the first message online, and in February when we had accumulated several hours online I sent him a Valentine. I think that made my husband feel more confident to pursue me further, especially because in the USA men are expected to give Valentines while it is more or less optional for women.
Also, I have high emotional intelligence so I discovered his likings and remembered them and asked him a lot about them. I also asked him about his old girlfriends. This is a good technique to connect with a man’s emotions because for most men, women in his past occupy a special place so sharing these important emotional milestones with him makes you special to him.
I never asked him for presents, except when he came to visit me the first time I told him that I wanted something he made himself and that I can carry with me at all times. He made me a silver ring that ended up becoming my engagement band. Once we decided he would come and visit, I asked to share expenses 50/50 because I knew it was a big expense for him.
As I mentioned earlier, he is going to escalate sexually. He is probably going to try for sex before your relationship is as emotionally intimate as you would like. This is the inevitable struggle between males and females. Again, you have a job to do. If you are nurturing the relationship emotionally, and feel that you are not yet ready to have sex, you should say so.
BUT. You should also tell him that the throbbing between your legs is about to drive you insane, and that you look forward to keeping him up all night. Also, as we’ve discussed here many times, he is not going to want to wait if other guys haven’t. If you are not a girl who does casual, make that clear, so that he knows there’s no price discrimination.
Although it’s obvious, it bears mentioning that there are ways to please him sexually as you become secure in his affection. Be very clear about how desirable you find him, and for heaven’s sake bow down and worship his cock. He will reward you emotionally.
By the way, a lot of what’s described in this post is what men call femininity.
Each sex has a job to do in finding the balance between sex and commitment. Embrace your role and your responsibility from the start. Nurture the emotional connection from the moment you meet someone. It’s never too early.
{ 970 comments… read them below or add one }
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“I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.”
I agree. But what I’m saying here is: college is NOT an excuse to skip having a relationship. Sure, things may not work out in the end, but so what? If the choice is between having random hookups for four years while you get a degree, and spending those four years with one person only to split up after, which do you think is more constructive if the end goal is marriage and a family? I get that people will not go without sex if they can help it. What I’m saying is, don’t. But, instead of being afraid of commitment simply because it “might now work out” after graduation, do it anyway. The worst case is it doesn’t work out, and they part ways. They both still got years of experience being part of a relationship, and learned something about themselves and what they want/need from a mate.
If Johnny has never been tested, I would be a fool to think things would work out. But if my daughter spends more than a month with one guy, I want him in front of me ASAP so I can see what he is made of. I know that in the end I don’t have any legal say in her decisions, but I know beyond all doubt that my daughter does not like to disappoint her mother or myself, and that if we did NOT approve she would at least take our opinion seriously. She has demonstrated this with past boyfriends, and I can only hope that the trend continues.
And yes, I am speaking very much in generalities.
Escoffier – “I’m not saying we had it all figured out. I’m saying that by that age I knew a few basic things:”
Well for myself I can say that this was a very confusing period of my life. I could clearly see what you describe above, but at the same time I was being told by older women in my life that this was all a ‘phase’ and that these women were just immature and didn’t really know what they wanted. So, while my eyes were telling me the assholes/jerks/jocks mostly got all the girls, I was being told it wouldn’t last. I guess either a young man believes what he sees, or believes what he is told. I unfortunately believed what I was told, because I couldn’t imagine those women lying to me. I now believe that they weren’t lying to JUST me, they were lying to themselves as well. I’d like to blame them, but it’s hard to feel anger when in many ways I feel bad for them as well. Of those women, only my grandmother managed to get married and stay that way until she died.
I guess I was lucky because nobody was lying to me about women. For the most part, I figured out early that I was not anybody’s first choice so I dropped out of the competition. When I started to dip my toe in years later, my mother was quite candid about what girls are really like.
I see this too, but not often. Last summer we attended a wedding of two 26 yo who met at college orientation, and have been together ever since. They dated for nine years before marrying. Some of that time was long distance while they worked in separate cities. Now they’re both enrolled in grad school (different schools and programs) in Boston. It’s remarkable to me, actually. They’re the only couple I know personally who have dated exclusively for so long before marrying in their mid 20s.
Susan, I know plenty of couples like that. Oddly, there seems to be stigma (outside of the heartland and religious colleges) against marrying right after graduation. But there is no stigma at all in starting to date in college, staying together for 7, 8, 9 years whatever, and then getting married at 27. The likely response to that is “Awwwwwwww!”
Escoffier, I can understand the Monday Morning Quaterbacking and being able to see Game concepts at work, but, still, I think it would be difficult for any guy who is genuinely interested in things (i.e. sports, STEM, etc. … though, not so much music) other than pussy to get a really good grasp as to what is actually happening.
There are simply too many variables. Now, if you had said 17, and not 7th grade, then, I might not have been as critical.
Also, I think one of the biggest variables is how much PC nonsense you were spoon fed and how much real reality you were exposed to.
Well, like I said, and I don’t think I am an outlier, I could tell by 7th grade what kind of boys the girls liked. I also knew it wasn’t me!
@Escoffier
WADR, this makes zero sense.
The reigning definition of alpha in the ‘sphere is “gets laid a lot by many different women” (or has the option to). My boring, athletic, handsome, not very bright college boyfriend met that definition and then some. After we broke up he cut a swath through the sororities that had me staring open mouthed. I believe he continued in that vein throughout his 20s. He is married to someone named Tiffany, which implies a much younger bride, lol. He was the alpha of fraternity alphas. Do you remember the video I posted of the “Professional” beach soccer player who shared his alpha male secrets? He got away with nuzzling crotches in public bars and brought women home regularly to his twin bed in his parents’ house. He was so dumb it hurt to watch.
I have never heard from anyone but you the idea that alphas have good personalities, are smart, etc. Those factors are irrelevant to establishing dominance.
Ted, you are not making some sort of argument against sluttiness.
While yo will get no argument from me, I feel that you have changed the point of the argument. That is fine, that is your prerogative, but I will let you go down that rabbit hole by yourself.
Susan,
Yes, the number was 30% of women have doubts when they walked down the aisle. But if you read the article, two thirds of the examples reflect not that the woman was not in love, but that she feared her fiance was an asshole who would not be faithful. That’s a very different story.
You are correct about the EXAMPLES in the article, and also correct that marrying the “badboy” you think will reform is very different from marrying a guy you really don’t feel strong love and attraction for.
If a third of the women with doubts have them because they are not in love, that’s 10% of divorced women and 4% of women who marry.
All that said, obviously one cannot take the examples in the article and then extrapolate that to the makeup of the overall aggregate 30%. I know you know better than that when it comes to mathematical analysis.
In my first comment, I had quoted Ms. Gauvain with regard to her characterization of “what the twenties were for and what happens at 30″. I noted in your response you didn’t address her comments at all. Just curious, do you have any thoughts on what Ms. Gauvain stated?
@Ted D
I don’t think people should relocate without a firm commitment to marry. A woman who does that is turning her life upside down, probably forfeiting her best job offer, leaving friends and family, etc. to probably cohabitate with someone she may or may not marry. And I think 21 is too young to make that commitment. The truth is that most kids coming out of college are far from fully matured.
I think we have to remember that college relationships don’t look like they did a generation ago. Rarely does either party plan on marriage – it’s most common for couples to amicably break up at graduation, or within a year of trying to make things work long distance. You can wish it were different, but that’s the reality.
Wow! Susan, while you and I are of the same race, similar religious background, somewhat similar education background and similar location (you moved to the Northeast, while I am from there {NYC metro, not Boston}), I sometimes think that we are living in different worlds.
I have already known 4 couples who met in college that later got married. And, with an extra degree of separation, that number might increase from 4 to, say, 7 or 8 (I just met another couple this weekend at a party, though, they are now divorced).
@Ramble
I’m working on a post about the benefits of dating, i.e. serial monogamy. In my view, there is a great deal to be said for dating as shopping for a quality partner. Massachusetts has both the oldest age at marriage and lowest divorce rate in the country – I’ve seen it is only 7%. I’m currently researching that to confirm it.
People who want to get rid of frivolous divorce and at the same time eliminate dating are not thinking straight.
@Ted
Yeah, I’ve stuck to my values on several occasions as well. I suppose it is one small part of the red-pill process to come to terms with the fact that most women really don’t care that I didn’t shag those women. Turns out that other than being able to feel good about my convictions and discipline, there is really little value in saving intimacy for someone you trust and care about in a relationship. Sure, its “nice”, but far from important to them IMO. I have never seen it win out – that is, they either like you or don’t, for some wide variety of reasons in which that particular quality is easily lost in the noise (unless they are christian/virgins I suppose).
The thing is that in my experience, much of what VD and Obsidian say above is true. The ‘opportunities’ that I declined were not drunk sluts at the club. They were ‘good’ women who were pleasant, smart, and attractive. One woman propositioned me a week before her wedding. She was a friend and I knew all of her friends (and fiance) and she literally asked me to plow her behind a tree in the back yard. Yikes. Interestingly, most of the women I declined were quite annoyed to find out where I stood on casual sex. I’m sure part of it was being rejected (probably because they didn’t believe me) – but part of it was also their own foolish realization that they had lumped me in with the typical assumptions that “all men are the same” and “all men want is sex”. I’m sure the realization was fleeting as most of them quickly found someone else to fill their void, if you will.
I never felt empowered or any kind of ego boost from these situations because I never assumed it to be about me; I knew it was all about them. I found/find it disappointing to get the ‘wrong’ kind of attention/interest as well as increasingly disturbing to see what lengths some of the otherwise ‘good’ women will go to in order to fulfill their ‘needs’ in any given moment.
And yes, as I get older I find this to be even more difficult because while I was in a LTR for 10 years, my view/values in this regard have fallen further into fringe territory. Even women who have not ‘slept around’ [sidebar: these days you have to define what this means, which says a lot IMO] have participated in an SMP in which sex (casual) is the preferred gateway to a relationship. So they can say they don’t believe in casual sex because their intent/hope was to form a relationship, but the fact that it doesn’t work 80+% of the time – or the guy had different intentions so they end up having a series of three week sexual relationships courtesy of Match.com before stumbling into a relationship for a while. It begins to feel like intimacy is valuable much like chumming the water is valuable in catching a fish.
There are days when I want to say F-it and just be that guy that women expect these days. I’m seeing very little downside in it. What keeps me grounded is that I am an idealist so I cling to the belief that there are women out there who still value these same principles – through voice AND action. Perhaps in my own ways I am just as deluded in believing that as many women are deluded in believing that lowering the price of sex will somehow yield the high returns they feel entitled to.
But then I have always wanted more than just sex. Which is probably what keeps me planted firmly in the beta camp.
@ms walsh:
Let me ask you this then: what has been the big takeaway for you insofar as the manosphere overall is concerned?
O.
It’s not that they have good personalities (whatever that means) and it certainly doesn’t mean that they are smart.
But if alpha has any meaning at all to the liks of Roissy, Roosh, etc., it is a set of behavioral traits that excite women’s attraction triggers. Boring is pretty much the anti-alpha in that sense.
So, in your case, it could simply be that his looks were enough to fuel his success. Or–and I would view this as more likely–that you were an outlier in finding him dull. Most of the others were happy with his looks and probably thought he was interesting enough–for them.
One of the ways I part company with game teaching is their insistence on the homogeneity of women. I think it’s useful to generalize about widely shared traits. But they often oversimplify and insist on saying stuff like, All women are attracted to the same things.
@Obsidian,
The problem with canned techniques is they do not address the underlying problems that men, and only act as a band-aid. If you develop confidence and a purpose in life they’re also completely unnecessary and detrimental; after all, rather than having a natural flowing conversation with a woman and evaluating whether you should be spending any time with her, you’re trying to pull off a canned routine to impress her.
First off using them is a sign of insecurity, after all if you were secure with yourself you would not need to impress the woman and you wouldn’t be afraid to be authentic with the woman. Beyond that, when you’re spouting canned routines to DHV you’re not evaluating the woman you’re spending your time with which is (in my opinion) far more important than gaining her approval.
Essentially, Mystery’s mental breakdown is the perfect example why a focus on techniques rather than fixing your core issues is a problem. He spent years developing routines to act as a mask for his inner weakness, executed these routines to gain women’s approval without ever truly making them earn his approval, and let a toxic woman into his life which broke through his facade and destroyed him.
Maybe I live in some odd alternative dimension but “Hi” generally works as a pretty good opener to a woman who demonstrate that they’re open to an approach; and listening to what they have to say and responding with humourous obeservations and true stories from my life generally works pretty well to gain further interest.
@SW
I remember hearing about this book (dreck?) when it came out in the mid-1990s. Seemed like it was aimed at older women. Anyway, it’s a few decades too late. But given that a cottage industry of books appeared around the same time aimed exlusively at men (i.e. avoid relationships, seek only sex), any surprise? The marketplace of ideas is basically one reaction after another. I never found any real wisdom amidst all this commerce.
Susan, while I don’t disagree with your comment, some girls follow the BF for that very reason, to leave their “friends” and family.
Their friendships are not particularly strong and they don’t much like their family.
@Escoffier
Your description of middle and high school sounds right to me, but cocky and outgoing does not equal interesting. Many of those guys were not interesting, and they got girls because girls didn’t care how dumb or boring they were – they were the popular boys. Of course the nerdy boys got ignored, and so did the nerdy girls. Even in 7th grade, 10% of the guys are getting with 10% of the girls, and that stays true through college.
Susan, I started dating my wife in January (some years back). Around October I got approached about a job that would take me to another city. I learned I got the job in November. She said, I’ll go but only if you marry me. So, we rented a place and did all the logistical work and the got married in December at City Hall days before I had to report. We later had a nice wedding with guests and all that.
I believe that Mass has the highest percentage of College Grads who leave the state (soon) after they graduate. They have a lot of good schools around Boston and only so many high finance and high tech jobs to go around.
I think that there is a fair amount of “skimming” that happens for college students.
I also thinks that this relates to my previous comment about our backgrounds being similar, but our experiences being somewhat different.
Wow, all you guys who are getting brazenly propositioned, I am way envious. That never happens to me. I think the only time it ever did was freshman year in college and the girl was so drunk I couldn’t even consider it. Also, I didn’t find her attractive at all. But even if I had, the drunkness was a deal-breaker.
“I believe that Mass has the highest percentage of College Grads who leave the state (soon) after they graduate.”
Sounds plausible, but how many of them were from Mass in the first place? There are more colleges per capita there than anywhere else in the country, so naturally kids are coming from all over and then they go home, or go somewhere else.
@Ted D
College is an opportunity to get an education, and that should be the highest priority of everyone there. Once you graduate, your highest priority should be putting that education to good use. That does not preclude a relationship, but it doesn’t emphasize it either.
As a parent who values education and paid for it, I want my daughter to experience supporting herself, living independently, finding intellectual fulfillment, and selecting a mate very carefully. I have always supported gender equity, and this is where the rubber meets the road, I guess. If she does marry early, I hope she doesn’t start spitting out babies right away.
@Escoffier
Your wife was smart! She gave up a lot to follow you, and it would not have made sense if you weren’t sure about her.
So, in your case, it could simply be that his looks were enough to fuel his success. Or–and I would view this as more likely–that you were an outlier in finding him dull. Most of the others were happy with his looks and probably thought he was interesting enough–for them.
This is my take….especially after Susan made the comment that him not having an opinion on Carter versus Ford was a tingle killer. It is clear to me…and Susan can correct me if I am wrong…but it is clear that FOR HER being an intellectual type is a key to attraction. I don’t doubt that there are women who tingle for displays of intelligence and intellectual curiousity, but in my experienc they are a very small minority. In fact, I started having better interactions with women when I started to really ramp down my intellectual side.
Ah, Susan, this is where you are different from a true anti-feminist. My wife’s highest ambition for our daughter is for her to find a good man and spit out babies. It is a matter of total indifference whether that happens early or late. I mean, mom wants her to go to college but after that she could not care less about a career.
Fair point. But, are the schools in Southern California much different? Or, the schools around DC?
I do think that Boston has a unique situation. Granted, most major metro areas have something going for them (i.e. LA is very different from NYC, which is very different, from DC, which is very different from Boston, which is very different from Detroit, etc.).
@Ramble
Are those couples currently in their early to mid-20s? I know one additional couple that married after law school graduation. IDK, maybe it’s just me. As I said, MA has the highest age at first marriage in the US, I believe.
@Tasmin
This is very true. There are lots of false starts with sex happening on date three, and there is no date four.
As a general matter, with the exception of Stanford, most CA schools are drawing heavily from CA. Their reach is just a lot smaller. USC gets a lot of out of state kids, as to UCLA and Berkeley but way less than a majority. Then the Claremont Colleges also do. After that, it’s mostly local kids.
DC really doesn’t have that many schools. G’Town and GW draw far and wide. GM is a state school. American gets a good mix.
Vox: “A woman who wants to have secret casual sex, on a short-term or an on-going basis, has a very strong preference for men who do not want relationships and will not out her to anyone.”
Nailed it. I know a few women personally who have exactly done this, and their best female friends (and naturally, husbands/boyfriends) don’t even know.
Why do they tell me? I am the easy-going, nonjudgmental, while still being very sexual, friend. They know that a lot of their female friends will judge or use it against them. Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.
@Obs
There is no one takeaway or lesson. People get online to search for answers to questions and solutions to problems. Both HUS and the ‘sphere reflect that. They bring their concerns, their quirks, their personality traits and their baggage. As we all do. As for the bloggers, I don’t know them personally. All but a couple use pseudonyms. My advice to any reader, including people here, is to take advice from people who have what you want. I am continually amazed at how many miserable and unsuccessful people advise others. Caveat emptor. *shrugs*
Yeah, I’ve stuck to my values on several occasions as well. ***I suppose it is one small part of the red-pill process to come to terms with the fact that most women really don’t care that I didn’t shag those women. Turns out that other than being able to feel good about my convictions and discipline, there is really little value in saving intimacy for someone you trust and care about in a relationship. Sure, its “nice”, but far from important to them IMO.*** I have never seen it win out – that is, they either like you or don’t, for some wide variety of reasons in which that particular quality is easily lost in the noise (unless they are christian/virgins I suppose).
Tasmin, I’m sure you realize what you’ve described is an example of male projection. Because we value immensely what you describe in a woman for a LTR/marriage we assume that women by and large will place the same priority/emphasis. I think it was VD who somewhere correctly pointed out that rather than the golden rule assume the opposite when it comes to men and women. In my view, and in my experience where women will “penalize” your for sexual intimacy is if they witness you going for the really low-hanging fruit. It isn’t the casual sex itself you get penalized for…it is the WHO it was with.
They range from mid 20′s to early 30′s. If you include that extra degree of separation, I also “know” a few couples in their late 30′s.
As a general matter, with the exception of Stanford, most CA schools are drawing heavily from CA.
Yes, but California is enormous and relocating from SF to LA is a big deal. Just as moving from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh is a big deal. It means taht you rarely get to see your family and friends.
======================
You forgot Univ. of Maryland which is, trust me on this, DC centric.
GM is a state school.
So what. Lots of state schools get lots of out-of-staters. GM may not be a perfect example of this, but Univ of Maryland would be.
“Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.”
Compared to men, women are much quicker to mistake another person’s feelings about them as judgements. It can perplex a man when a woman claims he is “judging” her just because he does not want to commit due to her prolific past sexual behavior. He knows damn well he is not judging her or could care less about what she has done. He just does not feel good about getting involved with her. It does not take much for a gaggle of “feeling judged” women to fume and rant themselves into a tirade leading to a campaign that includes new-age phrases like “slut shaming” and “sex positive” and whatever else makes them feel better.
That is obviously true. My point was that by any available metric, he was alpha. And alpha does not always mean memorable in a good and exciting way. Players are notoriously bad lovers, at least while they’re in college. The female rate of orgasm in casual sexual intercourse is only 18%. That doesn’t mean they aren’t capable – it could mean they just don’t care. But the belief that the guy all the women want is good in bed? Not at all true, in my experience.
In my opinion the right man is worth WAY more than a good job. Most people nowadays change jobs multiple times, and certainly we’ve learned that companies are not at all loyal to the employee and will lay them off at any time for any reason. A good man who genuinely loves and cares about the woman is incredibly rare and will not be coming around a lot in her lifetime. She has basically a few shots at lifelong marriage, mostly during her 20s, and she has to make those shots count.
When I was 25 I quit a very good job with benefits at a stable, large international non-profit near Chicago to move to Utah, without a new job lined up. My husband was starting grad school, so it had to be me who moved. It was a scary and risky thing for me, but if I hadn’t done it, there was no way we could have made it work long-distance. I’m pretty sure this move also factored into his decision to marry me fairly soon after I moved to Utah. Now I have a similarly good job and am married to the love of my life.
Right after college is actually the perfect time to move to a new town because you have no job experience anyway, and networking won’t help you that much because most of your peers are in the same boat. If the guy has a job lined up there, he would be in a better position to help her network than her other friends, and he would have a job locked down and not see her as competition. So even from a practical career perspective, it’s a good idea to move with the college boyfriend after graduation.
Susan, on it’s surface, this makes sense, but not when you dig deeper.
Think of how many women, who are happily married with a low number, got married to their HS sweetheart back in the bad old days.
Exactly how much good advice would she be able to offer some well meaning girl trying to navigate this modern SMP?
And, think about those slightly miserable adults that could warn younger generations not to make the same mistakes they made? Heck, isn’t that what made what’s her name famous…crap, the one you did a post on. Fuck, I can’t remember shit.
Susan, tons of people end up with lots of success without really knowing how they did it. And, after they became successful, their then advice is often derived from a fair amount of self-congratulatory navel gazing.
I would say this: look for advice from those that seem to genuinely want to help (and not make themselves look smart) and are offering *specific* advice.
Generic advice is all too often either not helpful, or too easily misinterpreted.
“Just be yourself”. Thanks.
@Susan
Interesting point about circles where it would be common.
At least some of them are operating from an out of the mainstream world view. However, one thing that does happen is their are other forms of social proof of self-control, respect, and so on.
That is where I think a lot of sex possies are missing the point. The dislike of promiscuity isn’t just about sex. Yes, it is about sex and being chosen and all the things the guys here talk about.
It’s also a proxy for a lot of character tests, specifically ones of self-control. Sure, that gets discussed here but that one probably gets hand waved away more with “but there are other ways to know that” more than anything else. The sex possies never seem to get that societies pick markers for character. They point to poly and BDSM worlds as not caring about promiscuity (hell, in some circles slut is a compliment) but they never take the next step and say “they measure character by X, Y, and Z”. I promise you at least one of those things will be a sexual character test. Who do you play with and how do you negotiate it, how much drama do you cause, do you poach from stable poly groups, and so on.
So, even in circles where threesomes might be normal and promiscuous behavior acceptable, having random threesomes will not be. It’s about having control of your sexuality regardless of the standard or the larger community.
Even my kind of sluts aren’t the same thing as the random sluts trying to cover up their past.
well the big UC schools today have more out of state kids than ever but it’s still a small proportion. I guess I don’t know much about George Mason but I don’t think they get a lot of out of state kids. I know that G’Town, GW and American draw from all over the country. In california the only schools you can really say that about are Stanford and (to a much lesser extent) USC. Pomona and CMC are also decent out of state draws but not to the same extent. And they tend to draw from Western states. The number of kids you will meet at Pomona from (say) Mass is very small. If any.
As for graduate degrees, a lot of employers provide tuition reimbursement, so you can get an MBA or whatever for very cheap while going to school. Since you’ll be in early 20s and not have kids, the time expenditure to get a graduate degree while working will not be a problem. I’ve known a number of women who have gone back to school while working and gotten their master’s for free or cheap.
Don’t buy into the hype that a woman who has a man is useless at a job.
“a series of three week sexual relationships courtesy of Match.com”
“This is very true. There are lots of false starts with sex happening on date three, and there is no date four.”
So then, is Match.com really a harem facilitator and wife-material wrecker?
well the big UC schools today have more out of state kids than ever but it’s still a small proportion.
Right, *AND* CA is an enormous state. So, again, moving from SF to LA is a big deal. Again, this was all about little Janey moving away from her family to be with Johnny. It’s a big deal.
And, again, I said that GM probably does NOT get many out of staters.
Susan, we just disagree on this point. I think essential to the concept of alpha is “exciting.” “Exciting” is not necesarilly good. Excitement can be bad, or dangerous, or frivilous. It can be many things.
Beta and boring are basically synonymous the same way alpha and exciting are.
Exciting is also not the same as good in bed. I mostly believe your argument that PUAs tend to be lousy because they don’t care. (Though game bloggers tend to boast about their prowess, but I don’t think we can take their word for it). So, the point is not what happens after she submits to sex. The point is what got her to submit. What got her to submit were his attractive traits that she found exciting.
Oddly, there seems to be stigma (outside of the heartland and religious colleges) against marrying right after graduation.
I don’t know if it’s a stigma as much as it is an acceptance that kids will split up to go to separate grad schools or job markets. It used to be in the UMC that the boy would find a job or go on to law or med school and the girl would marry him and work as a teacher or nurse while he was in school. He’d graduate, she’d quit work, and they’d start a family. Now the girl is going to law or med in NY and the boy is going to law or med school in CA, so they break up. No one is giving up their plans for the other.
“dating, i.e. serial monogamy”
Heh
LA to SF is only 400 miles. I knew plenty of SoCalers who went to Berkeley and NorCalers who went to UCLA. It was not that uncommon.
Really, what kids tended to do was go to the best UC campus they got into. If you got into Cal, that’s where you went. If Cal dinged you but UCLA accepted you, you went there. Then UCSD. After that it was a bit more variable. There were kids who either were accepted or could have been accepted to Cal who chose UCLA because they wanted to be in LA but that was not so common.
As an aside, Stanford grads assume that everyone who went to Cal did so because they got rejected by Stanford. At the Big Game one year when Cal built up a huge lead and it was clear Stanford was going to lose, students on the Stanford side starting chanting “We got in! We got in!” lol
@SW
I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband. They had five kids and have been married 44 years.
Wise choice. She probably would not have believed you anyway.
34, not 44?
@Mike C
This is Gauvain’s first comment:
That is a clear reference to women marrying unsuitable men, while in unhealthy relationships, i.e. cads.
Here is her second comment:
Here she is referring to the mindset of women feeling pressured, and rushing into a decision. That could be with men they aren’t really in love with, but it also includes men they know aren’t suitable, as stated above.
Third comment:
Obviously, this too can apply to either kind of mistake, but the example given is of the bad guy, not the indifferent woman.
Wait a minute. IIRC, you implied originally that 30% of divorced women “settled” and married a man they were not in love with. The article does not prove that in any way. I have no idea what percentage settled vs. married bad prospects, but the article is definitely skewed toward the latter explanation.
I did some additional research in hopes of finding more about her work. From an article at HuffPo:
and
Finally, Megan McArdle weighs in on Gauvain’s research at The Atlantic:
It should also be noted, for the record, that Gauvain is a MSW who conducts pre-wedding sessions at a Catholic church. She wrote a book, “How Not to Marry the Wrong Guy” based on emails and stories she heard from women she knew and women they knew. That doesn’t mean her research is not legit – I have no idea how she structured it. But it’s not exactly peer-reviewed academic research either.
In any case, I don’t think the evidence supports your original claim that Gauvain’s research supports the beta provider meme.
Haha, fair enough! I admit that when a guy tells me he doesn’t care about politics and doesn’t read the newspaper, I am truly repelled, even in platonic friendship. I have a brother who holds this view and it drives me crazy. I’d much rather spend time with someone who totally disagrees with me than someone who has no opinion. Having no opinion is just so boring. But you’re right, that’s just me.
I agree with this. For the record, I have already told my daughter that now (just post college) is the time to begin searching for a quality man. If she finds him tomorrow, I’ll be thrilled, and do not feel that she has to delay marriage just because she is young. But I still hope she would delay childbirth for a few years.
Excoffier, come on, it is over 6 hours from LA to SF. That means that the 23 year old Janey (after following Johnny) is going to see her friends fewer than, say, 3 times per year…it is a big deal.
Whether or not it is common is not being debated.
I believe they claim to be responsible for a large percentage of American marriages.
@J
Yes, thanks, it’s 34 years.
BTW, I watched Girls for the second time last night and realized that Adam took that jar of mayonnaise into the bedroom. Outrageous! Then we hear a crash and he yells “Fucker!” I think I’m going to miss him the most.
@Esco
Well, like I said, and I don’t think I am an outlier, I could tell by 7th grade what kind of boys the girls liked. I also knew it wasn’t me!
I had the corresponding female experience until I graduated college. Luckily, the grown men like me fine.
Even in 7th grade, 10% of the guys are getting with 10% of the girls, and that stays true through college.
Yep.
@MikeC
“Tasmin, I’m sure you realize what you’ve described is an example of male projection. Because we value immensely what you describe in a woman for a LTR/marriage we assume that women by and large will place the same priority/emphasis. I think it was VD who somewhere correctly pointed out that rather than the golden rule assume the opposite when it comes to men and women. In my view, and in my experience where women will “penalize” your for sexual intimacy is if they witness you going for the really low-hanging fruit. It isn’t the casual sex itself you get penalized for…it is the WHO it was with.”
Yup. Which is why I lump it into the Red Pill. I am in the process of netting out the truly meaningful, relevant, and and useful components of my beliefs from the ‘values’ that were instilled in me while growing up in a conservative, religious household and attending feminist-inspired public schools in the 70′s and 80′s. Of course there is projection there. Digesting the red pill requires the divesting of those things that we wrongly internalize as universal to men and women, when if fact – and my experience is in line with yours, women hold a very different view when it comes to how men value and act in terms of intimacy.
But as I am sure you know, our beliefs tend to be very sticky. It is a difficult process and can cast quite a negative light at times. While I don’t know about the golden-rule thing, probably a bridge too far for me, I have seen enough to know that whatever value I hold in terms of intimacy is mine alone and to expect women to hold it in the same regard is an exercise in futility. But you know, it’s the truth, but I don’t *like* it. And I think it is this very process that sets guys like me off into darker things. While I don’t agree with that path, I do feel like it is a fool’s game to expect others to value us based on our principles; they will value us based on theirs. So your point is spot on.
In the meantime my focus remains on women who have similarly held themselves above the fray while working to eliminate any of my residual expectations that my values in this regard are anything other than gravy.
Tasmin, if I recall correctly, you are an NF (INF*?), which is the rarest male (major MBTI) subtype. Female NFs are maybe 15-20% of the population, and they are your natural counterparts. Other NFs are much more likely to value what you value in relationships, especially in regard to intimacy and non-promiscuity. Personally, I value the same values, and it is a deep-seated feeling that has little to do with the prevailing cultural norms. I attribute it to my NF nature, since I did not have a religious upbringing.
I am continually amazed at how many miserable and unsuccessful people advise others. Caveat emptor. *shrugs*
Yeah, no shit! The way to be considered a god in this corner of the net is to be an unhappily married/divorced man. I sometimes kills me to think of how many times I’ve been shouted down by guys who’d kill to have what I give my husband, but think I’m full of shit, not submissive enough or whatever. There are days I’d like to shake the whole lot of them and say, “Listen! I have what you want! Let me tell you how to get it.” Jeeeezzzz.
Ramble – “While yo will get no argument from me, I feel that you have changed the point of the argument. That is fine, that is your prerogative, but I will let you go down that rabbit hole by yourself.”
Couple of things.
1. I’ve been down this rabbit hole so long I’m renting a room. It is very nicely furnished, but the stairs out suck.
2. My original point was that I don’t understand why people are putting off relationships during college, so I don’t think I moved the goal posts. If I did, it was by mistake.
3. “Ted, you are not making some sort of argument against sluttiness.” – but I am. What I am saying is: I don’t expect anyone to put off having sex from the time they are in High School to when they get married. It just isn’t possible. So, to me the better alternative is to get with and stay with someone as long as possible during this time, and by all means try to find someone you think you can marry and work towards that goal. If it doesn’t work out, you haven’t lost anything and you gain relationship experience. How exactly is that NOT making an argument against sluttiness?
Susan – “And I think 21 is too young to make that commitment. The truth is that most kids coming out of college are far from fully matured.”
OK I agree here. But I highly doubt any of my children will be done with college by 21, even if they start right after HS. You see, we don’t have the money for them to go full time without working, so I expect they will be doing part time and working, which will probably take the usual four year degree and stretch it out to 6ish. By 23 I will feel much more comfortable with a moving away situation. Also, what difference does it make if your daughter moves away on her own for a job, or moves with a BF? Yes, I indicated that I would want to see a strong level of commitment, but that doesn’t mean being married before they move. If they spent four years together in college, I would feel comfortable with their level of commitment to each other, provided I didn’t get any bad vibes while they were dating in college. Again, I would want anyone my children are with to be in my presence as often as possible, to see how they interact and to get a feel for them.
As far as college relationships go, I really can’t say. I didn’t start my first round of college until I was 21, and only got an associate degree at that time. I was with the same girl prior to starting, and still after I finished. We broke up within a year and I met my now ex-wife within a year of that break-up. (actually this turned out to be my longest stretch without a LTR. I put my efforts into my new “career” for awhile and just didn’t put myself out there to find another mate.) But you have to remember in all of this, what YOUR children will experience in college and what MY children will experience is vastly different. My kids will be living at home and commuting to school. They will probably attend Pitt or Penn State at best, and honestly they will likely be at least putting time in community college first to knock out the basics. We don’t have the kind of money it takes for even the more expensive schools in Pittsburgh, so anyone they are dating will have plenty of face time with me.
Tasmin – “But then I have always wanted more than just sex. Which is probably what keeps me planted firmly in the beta camp.”
Screw it! In the end for me, I realized that I might have stayed away from casual sex because I thought it had some value with women, but at this point I don’t care. I am who I am this moment because I turned casual sex down, and in the end I’m good with who I am. If it has no value to women, well, what difference does it really make? It had and continues to have value to me, and that is all that matters in the end.
Escoffier – “Wow, all you guys who are getting brazenly propositioned, I am way envious. “
Don’t be. Honestly it made me feel lousy to an extent as Tasmin also noted. Sure, it was great to think a woman just wanted to jump my bones, but it actually hurt my feelings because it meant they were more interested in my cock than in me. Although I do think that first girl that propositioned me (if you can call it that…) really wanted to “want” me because I was a “good guy”. She knew me for some time through a former LTR mate, and despite that breakup she still saw me as the classic decent man, and had a history of going for the cad/asshat/PUA type guys that would pump and dump her. She really didn’t want me, she wanted to want me, if that makes sense… So that situation made me feel pretty crappy. The other? Well to be honest, I felt just a little violated. I knew some of the guys she had been with before, and I had NO desire to put any part of my body near that cesspool. I have no idea what caused her to hit on me, but I suspect it was at least partly the desire to “corrupt” me, and she knew I was way down in the dumps about my breakup. (perhaps she was hoping to snag me with her magic vagina and land a provider. Who knows…)
Susan – “College is an opportunity to get an education, and that should be the highest priority of everyone there. Once you graduate, your highest priority should be putting that education to good use. That does not preclude a relationship, but it doesn’t emphasize it either.”
Yeah we see this differently. Of course to me getting good grades and an education is important, but I don’t believe that all other facets of life should be put on hold during this time. In fact, to me it makes sense to purposefully engage in other activities during college. Sure, it makes things harder. But, is life easy? Did you find more stress when you had to work full time AND maintain a family? You see, to me having a relationship during college is a great way to prepare for the “real world”, where you have to balance family and work as best as you can. Of course I expect my kids to get good grades. But, I don’t expect them to completely stop living outside of school, and that means I fully expect them to be dating.
@ms walsh:
Hmm. Ok, as an observer-and very much an “alien” participant of the manosphere for roughly five years now, ill give you my impressions and what i think is the big takeaway for me:
First, i honestly question whether the (white for the most part) guys in the sphere really want advice or any other kinds of information in order to change their lives/situation. I think most guys in the sphere are deeply pissed off that life did not work out anywhere near they were told and they are very bitter about this. This is why roissy and roosh have more content about fat girl jihads and the like more than straightahead pickup knowledge-in many ways from where i sit, the latter is a kind of thin cover to give the former a kind of legitimacy in the public square.
This became very clear to me two summers ago, when an article i wrote for the spearhead generated 600+ comments of hate. Why? Because my piece had the gall to advise men about their hygiene and appearance with an eye towards maintaining/improving a ltr. It also talked about doing it in the midst of the mancession-how to get cleaned up and take your lady out on a shoestring budget.
But it didnt stop there. When i wrote a followup piece laying out my dismay at the fact that so many guys-all to a man white, with more real opportunities in life that i would ever have-were so filled with bile and hatred, the damn burst loose-what had been percolating just beneath the surface finally came out in all its ugliness:
How dare i, a black man, call all these guys on the carpet for what anyone with one good eye could plainly see? Undergirding the manosphere is a deep vein of out and out racism-particularly aimed at black men. So long as i was writing pieces that upbraided black women or whatnot i was ok; but the minute i began to talk about self-improvement in detailed ways, i got nothing but scorn. Even worse when i dared to challenge these white guys on their deep sense of entitlement., bitterness and anger. Every single game oriented article i have every written for the spearhead, has been met with howls of derision by its readership. That “600+ comments of hate” really opened my eyes to the fact that the manosphere doesnt want self improvement, doesnt want to grow. They want, at best, the world to change for and around them, and for having a space so they can do the grownup equivalent of a “boys only” treehouse. I decided to let them have it.
The big problem with all this though, is that a lot of what the manosphere says, has more than a grain of truth in it,despite its flagrant misogyny and blatant anti black male racism. Women, have changed and not always for the better. White males, particularly those on the margins of the lower middle class and what used to be solid working class, are seeing what little comparitive advantage to being a white male erode due to a host of forces. And the whites at the top-and with all due respect im reminded of the debate you had with ramble recently, this includes white(er) people like you-dont seem to even notice these guys. To say nothing about caring about them.
I learned that the manosphere doesnt have a place for me, a largely self taught black man from working class black america. Indeed if anything im watched with guarded suspicion, at best and if i step outta line im quickly “put back in my place”. In the minds of the majority of the white guys of the manosphere, i dont belong there and whats worse im part of the problem as to why they suffer as they do. While that may be regrettable in some philosophical sense, whats truly sad to me is that as a brotha, i am very much used to being on americas margins; its a new thing for these guys and by all accounts things are not going well for them in their transition.
As reprehensible as some of the manosphere may be, i think you can relate to what im saying here ms walsh; at the very least you can see what it is that im talking about. And i think that-o
Along with enjoying a good debate-explains more than enough why you allow so many denizens of the manosphere into your “home”.
The big takeaway for me is that what has been roiling in black america for decades has finally landed right on white americas doorstep-and if the manosphere is any indication you dont have a freakin clue as to how or what to do about it.
Holla back…
O.
I was half joking about being envious. But only half. One test of one’s SMV would be whether you ever get propositioned by the opposite sex. According to that test I am expired milk.
BTW, I watched Girls for the second time last night and realized that Adam took that jar of mayonnaise into the bedroom. Outrageous! Then we hear a crash and he yells “Fucker!” I think I’m going to miss him the most.
Yeah, for all his weirdness, he’s grown on me too.
I was heartbroken by the Hannah/Marnie fight. That’s an interesting relationship. They know each other so well and so many of the same faults despite the gap in their looks. What hurts more at that point in life than losing your bestie? They need each other to help navigate life, but lines are being re-drawn with Marnie and Jessa aligning against Hannah. So realistic.
I was also quite drawn in by the discussion between Jessa and her former employer. That the woman showed up in the first place was the first thing in the series that rang false to me, but the dialogue was exquisite–down to the need to find out if there really was any intimacy to the desire to mother Jessa. It gave us a nice glimpse into what’s hiding under Jessa’s manic exterior.
That may be the case, but there were many points brought up between you and Susan, and I was simply responding to one of them…and you didn’t address that one. Which is not important. It wasn’t a show stopper.
I misspoke. I meant to say, “you ARE making …”, there should not have been a “not” in there.
You may not be vulnerable today. But you may be just a bad breakup, a disappointment at work, or even a rainy day away from being vulnerable tomorrow. And that handsome, charming predator with the slightly too-knowing eyes is always ready should that day come….
I’ll consign this part of the “lifetime mission of getting as much poon as possible” from my friends was advertising crazy sexuality and discretion and orbit married women, waiting for that moment when the sex in the marriage sucked or was inexistant, her husband wasn’t paying attention because he himself was too busy with new fresh and so on and it probably was a good source of “someday I will bang that” this is one of the reasons I do think that as a general rule married people, shouldn’t have cultivate close friendships with people of the opposite gender they are not related to, heck I had known some cousins sleeping together so maybe nothing but their fathers and brothers and should kill any crush or attraction at the office, school… in the spot. Cheating happens with you find a person you are attracted to, he/she reciprocates and there is opportunity for the act, I don’t think you can do much about the feelings but opportunity IMO is the one people can have more control over so that is the one I advice to watch out, we had a similar advice at church to keep our legs shut and our zippers up: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, so don’t give the flesh a chance, YMMV.
At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him, and that I hoped he would prove worthy as a husband.
I’m rarely cynical but I hope he didn’t found another willing friend that actually “understood” that night.
I think that many here would think highly of a girl who found her prince after years of *not* sleeping with frogs and really filtering them out…while feeling quite lonely in the process.
Hope seems to fall in this category and she is really respected here so cosigning this.
Then the Claremont Colleges also do. After that, it’s mostly local kids.
Wait…are we neighbors? I live on Southern California and I had seen the Claremont colleges more times that I care about it.
Why do they tell me? I am the easy-going, nonjudgmental, while still being very sexual, friend. They know that a lot of their female friends will judge or use it against them. Fear of judgement is a huge thing for women.
That is how I hear all the stories I do. I am judgmental but no one knows that so they feel free to tell me everything, sometimes to my cringe. There are things I didn’t wanted to know.
In my opinion the right man is worth WAY more than a good job.
Yes. Totally our culture has a huge system dedicated to educate us and to find a job, but none to find a good person to spent your life with. Many people gamble love out of the chance of working in a job that pays them a lot of money and travel the world. But those jobs are hard and if you find yourself 36 and needed more education you can get one, if you find yourself the same age and single…well odds are worst for you. I left my job when I was making the more money I had ever done in my life to move to USA. I might be worried about being a SHAM but I rather worry about that than being on dating hell at this age.
Heck, isn’t that what made what’s her name famous…crap, the one you did a post on. Fuck, I can’t remember shit.
Kate Bolick?
I would say this: look for advice from those that seem to genuinely want to help (and not make themselves look smart) and are offering *specific* advice.
I will say ask advice to the professionals that have both the experience and have what you want for real. The Simpson’s joke about the life coach living alone in a department is all too real. When looking for dating advice I always picked the married people for more than 20 years that had advice to achieve that. The Rules woman got divorced, nuff said…
No difference unless she compromises in the second case.
“I believe they claim to be responsible for a large percentage of American marriages.”
Well, this is also on their site-
“24% of men and 23% of women ages 21-34 are virgins.”
and this, obviously to make women feel better -
“35% of singles have had a one-night stand that turned into a long term partnership.”
http://blog.match.com/2011/02/04/everything-you-think-you-know-about-singles-is-wrong-we-separate-fact-from-fiction-with-the-first-comprehensive-study-of-singles-in-america/
@Hope
Yep: INFP. I believe that type is even labeled “The Idealist”. I have to continually work on how I align my idealist/romantic notions with reality. I’m much more comfortable with being an INFP now, as opposed to years past. But a big part of that comfort came via serious loss and subsequent reckonings that continue to this day. I think that if I ever get to the point when I would be “ok” with having a son who is an INFP, that would mean that I have reached a significant milestone.
For me, the sensitive-feeling-introvert combo was a dreadful disposition from which to navigate years 6-25. And since my childhood our society has moved even further away from any kind of environment or systemic characteristics that foster or encourage those traits. I am who I am, but goddamn if it wasn’t a long painful process to finally discover that there was nothing ‘wrong’ with me.
I’m not big follower of ‘cultural norms’ either. I never had religion pounded into me; religion was just one part of a greater world-view. My values weren’t based on avoiding the everlasting fires of hell, but were developed as a result of extremely giving, low-ego parents who instilled an unwavering sense of selflessness. Which given my natural disposition, was redundant and probably led to some of my issues with self-esteem and perhaps my early motivation to seek out financial success over truly enriching endeavors. (Much like some children of extremely religious families revolt.)
In any case, I know there are women who share my views as all of the women whom I have been lucky enough to get to know over the past few years have been givers, healers, and the like. And I am really really attracted to those types. But the physical intimacy thing I find to be a whole other issue.
Regardless, I appreciate that you and other women here speak up for these qualities because there are sparse venues or forums ‘out there’ in which women feel comfortable enough to voice anything that might be contrary to the Sex and the City kulture or other populist memes.
Susan – “No difference unless she compromises in the second case.”
Then we aren’t so far apart. I just think that what the “college experience” is for you and yours compared to me and mine is vastly different. For my part, college is not a moment to pause life and focus on one and only one thing. To me it is the first time I expect my children to start actually multitasking life. I fully expect them to get good grades, work to earn some money (I won’t make them pay rent or food costs if/when they live with me WHILE they are in college), and have a decent social life all at the same time. If I can work 40+ hours a week and maintain a family life, they can manage to work, learn, and play a little. If not, then they need more than a college degree, they need a wake up call for what is coming next.
And I’ve made it perfectly clear that they WILL NOT be living at home for free unless they are enrolled in college and getting good grades. No college, no free room and meals. Bad grades? Same thing. If they want to loaf, they will be paying rent and buying their own food. Once they are 18, I am done being obligated to support them. Surely I will help them, but only if they are perusing goals I agree with. Or, the most common name this goes by in my family is: My house, my rules. They don’t like it? The door is that way.
Also, I hope you don’t think I’m attacking you on this. I know that when it comes to children things can get very personal quickly, and I don’t want you to feel like I’m on the attack. To be honest, I very much dislike the idea that college is a time ONLY for learning and study. I think it goes a long way towards keeping our young adults immature and protected, when I believe they should be experiencing the world in all its glory and horror so they know exactly what they are getting into when they graduate. I would much rather my children know now and be scared as hell, than to graduate and be shocked at what they find outside of academia. But I’ve never been the type of parent to shelter my kids anyway. I let them make mistakes, even when I know they will hurt (emotionally of course) because it teaches them valuable lessons before the mistakes are higher cost.
One of the ways I part company with game teaching is their insistence on the homogeneity of women. I think it’s useful to generalize about widely shared traits. But they often oversimplify and insist on saying stuff like, All women are attracted to the same things.
You have to keep in mind that Roissy and others are having to drive their primary points home to some very stubbornly resistant men who will take any opportunity to cling to their preconceptions. I know it drives Roissy nuts that he can’t be more subtle and precise, but he knows that if he does, those who most need his message will miss it entirely. If you are of low socio-sexual rank and are learning Game, then you need to operate with a model that assumes female homogenuity. It’s not different than any other academic subject; I could give you a laundry list of Veblen, Giffen, and Prechterian goods that completely violate the law of supply and demand, and yet every Econ 101 class teaches that if supply rises, price will fall, demand being constant.
Nailed it. I know a few women personally who have exactly done this, and their best female friends (and naturally, husbands/boyfriends) don’t even know.
Everyone knows a few women who have done it. They just don’t know they did it.
I could clearly see what you describe above, but at the same time I was being told by older women in my life that this was all a ‘phase’ and that these women were just immature and didn’t really know what they wanted. So, while my eyes were telling me the assholes/jerks/jocks mostly got all the girls, I was being told it wouldn’t last.
I heard the same lies too, but thanks to minor incidents in 5th and 7th grade, I ceased to believe anything that any female said. I also refused to date any girl from my school. The result was that by the time I graduated from college, my friends were absolutely convinced that I could get any woman’s knickers off if given 30 minutes alone with her. The amusing thing was that one of my house mates told his girlfriend this, and she couldn’t believe it. She’d seen pictures of all of us and I wasn’t even the best-looking one in the group. Then he brought her to a party, was introduced to me, and I didn’t even say anything to her, I simply looked at her and nodded, then went to talk to someone else.
The next day, he told me that she turned to him and said, “okay, I get it now.”
For some reason that I don’t pretend to understand, women react to self-confident, self-aware contempt as if it is catnip. Perhaps it is the DHV thing. Or perhaps it is an instinctive response to being seen as a pure sex object. I couldn’t possibly say. All I know is that if you look at a woman as if you are a cobra and she is a little mouse that you may or may not be in the mood to devour, she tends to find it not only attractive, but downright mesmerizing.
@ Susan Walsh
Good lord. I must say you handled that situation extremely well. I especially loved what you had to say to him at the rehearsal dinner.
I have a friend who is a Match.com expert. He is also disfuctional when it comes to women. His mom was a ho and I think he actually dislikes women, at least he doesnt repect them.
He has bedded over 100 women from match. Normally they go to dinner, by date 3 or earlier they have sex. They stop seeing him once they figure him out. He tells me ALL the women from match just want a free dinner and mostly sex. He says they are all nuts. I asked him he knows what they all have in common and he said no. I told him they all have HIM in common.. He didnt get my drift
There are two kinds of people in this world, those who get it and those who do not. If you dont understand what I mean, then you are probably one of those people who dont.
The story from the sex kitten was a good one. A common thread Ive seen several times.
Yes, Ana, Kate Bolick. I was too lazy to look it up.
I was very torn about what to do, but after much consideration decided not to tell Mary. At the rehearsal dinner, I told him that was my wedding gift to him.
I have to admit, I am borderline shocked by this, Susan. I was expecting you told Mary, but that she refused to believe it and married him anyway. Of course, it was the 70s…..
VD – “All I know is that if you look at a woman as if you are a cobra and she is a little mouse that you may or may not be in the mood to devour, she tends to find it not only attractive, but downright mesmerizing.”
Yep. I have seen this in action (and accidentally used it myself on occasion not knowing what I was doing) and as you said it often works wonders. I actually make it a point to be sure to project this on occasion to my current SO. In fact, of my LTRs, this is the first one where I am making conscious decisions to be sure and assert my “sexuality” for lack of a better term, and most of that comes in blatantly sexual remarks, a good bit of sexual innuendo, and occasional confirmation of exactly what I expect sexually from our relationship. Despite what I grew up believing, my SO responds very positively to these efforts. It seems like something I should have always known, but I still sometimes find myself amazed that women respond well to being treated like a sexual object, as long as it is from a man they actually want to have sex with.
I do think that as a general rule married people, shouldn’t have cultivate close friendships with people of the opposite gender they are not related to, heck I had known some cousins sleeping together so maybe nothing but their fathers and brothers and should kill any crush or attraction at the office, school… in the spot. Cheating happens with you find a person you are attracted to, he/she reciprocates and there is opportunity for the act, I don’t think you can do much about the feelings but opportunity IMO is the one people can have more control over so that is the one I advice to watch out
This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.
You know I have to say that I continue to be struck by just how so very deadly serious you White folks take this “love” thing; there just isn’t any analog in Black America. There. other priorities become important, and finding someone just kinda, you know, happens. And if it doesn’t, well, then you have Tyler Perry.
I think that more than anything says a heck of a lot about this corner of White American, and Black America; being something of a class and cultural cross dresser, I continue to be fascinated by the stark comparisons.
And yes, this holds true for the Buppies as well as the Ratchets…
O.
Susan:
“I want my daughter to experience supporting herself, living independently, finding intellectual fulfillment, and selecting a mate very carefully.”
————-
Hate to repeat this, but I’m one of those who married her college sweetheart. I know *quite* a number of others who also have, even 2 couples who married their HS sweethearts and are still going strong.
Many lived independently and supported themselves prior to marrying (as did I), worked while attending school, most also have a grad degree, all married later (as college grads typically do), none spit out babies before minimum age 26.
The only difference is that not ONE of these people wasted their time dating casually but were very selective in dating ONLY MARRIAGE MATERIAL from the very start.
We all married within our age range (within 2 years) and we all married people with LOW numbers and LOW baggage from prior failed relationships. Win, win, win all around.
Shockingly, all of this happened in the capitol of the world.
We’re all in our mid 40s, but I have younger relatives doing exactly the same.
VD – “This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.”
Cosign. I am “friendly” with my friend’s wives and GF’s, but I am not friends with them directly at all. I am also “friendly” to women at work, but I keep them at what I consider a safe distance emotionally, partly because I don’t shit where I work, and partly because of the desire to limit temptation. And I agree this is good advice for men AND women.
Obisidian – “You know I have to say that I continue to be struck by just how so very deadly serious you White folks take this “love” thing; there just isn’t any analog in Black America. ”
Can you elaborate some? I’m curious exactly what you mean by this comment. Is it that love just isn’t as important to black folks? It could explain much of what I see going on around me in the minority communities. But, as with other things I’ve mentioned, if its true, then it is spreading over to the lower class white folks around me as well.
VD – “This is wise for both men and women alike. After I married Spacebunny, I ended nearly all contact with my various female friends and acquaintances. Aside from my employees, there isn’t a single woman I speak to on a regular basis outside my immediate family. This policy won’t prevent the occasional naked member of the opposite sex falling on you in the sauna, but it does tend to reduce the likelihood of irresistible temptation.”
———–
Neither one of us has ever had opposite sex friends that we don’t meet with only as part of a couple. Part of the arsenal of not doing something stupid that you’ll later regret in life is to not put yourself in a compromising position to begin with.
@Ted:
“Can you elaborate some? I’m curious exactly what you mean by this comment. Is it that love just isn’t as important to black folks? It could explain much of what I see going on around me in the minority communities. But, as with other things I’ve mentioned, if its true, then it is spreading over to the lower class white folks around me as well.”
O: Sure.
Take what Ms. Walsh has said above in the comments, about what she wants for her daughter. She specifically mentioned paying for education as well as inculcating what Kay Hymowitz calls “The Mission” into her daughter. This sense of “mission” isn’t as clearcut and defined in Black America, as it is in White(r) America. And this extends into the area of love/relationships/mating/marriage/etc. Indeed, I think it was WaPo who recentlly published a study about Black Women, part of the results being that marriage and love weren’t as high a priority as career advancement and the like, if memory serves. In fact, when compared to Black Men(!), the latter had more interest in such things (love, romance, marriage) than Black Women did.
I mean, just take a look around the Afrosphere – that corner of the Internet that caters specifically to Blacks – and just compare that to Whites, like forums such as this one. Spend a bit of time comparing the general literature, like magazines and blogs and so forth. It becomes very apparent after awhile, that there is a big glaring difference between the two. “The Mission” accounts for at least part of that, I think, and of course, there are other things that account for it as well.
The problem of course, is that noticing such comparisons outloud can get you into enough trouble that you could even lose your job, which explains why it’s not as discussed in such naked ways; if it’s discussed at all, it’s done with the wink and nod kinds of language, deliberately oblique enough so as to not “offend” anybody – especially Black folks, definitely especially Black Women (recall my question earlier last week).
If you have any further questions, holla.
O.
J: ” There are days I’d like to shake the whole lot of them and say, “Listen! I have what you want! Let me tell you how to get it.”
While I don’t doubt your expertise here, men have led astray by female dating advice enough, that it is entirely proper to tell them to *never* listen to a woman for dating advice. Maybe you’re unlike the rest and actually won’t lie to them, but even at best case you can’t really ever understand visceral things like overcoming rejection, any more than I can understand having PMS.
Those guys should listen to a man who has succeeded in getting what they want, when starting from a similar position. It is rather curious that they don’t though. The divorced/angry guys sure are the loudest ones, though. At least Athol has a decent following.
Ted,
Here’s a bit of what I mean when Kay Hymowitz talks about “The Mission”:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_3_black_family.html
It’s a very good overview of the past roughly half century of public policy surrounding issues very important to the HUS crowd – and beyond…
O.
OTC:
“Those guys should listen to a man who has succeeded in getting what they want, when starting from a similar position. It is rather curious that they don’t though. ”
——
Happily married guys hang out on relationship forums just as much as they do on knitting and crocheting forums.
Obisian – “She specifically mentioned paying for education as well as inculcating what Kay Hymowitz calls “The Mission” into her daughter. This sense of “mission” isn’t as clearcut and defined in Black America, as it is in White(r) America. And this extends into the area of love/relationships/mating/marriage/etc. ”
Yes, I get this. I never put a name to it, but I always felt like there was a bit of aimlessness in the poor communities around me, and I think it is related to “the mission” as you put it. I said elsewhere that many young people around me just don’t see that a college education is something they can achieve, and this is directly because they are not given “the mission” by their parents, which Susan describes as a “lack of parental investment”. I agree to an extent, but it isn’t just a lack of parental input in all cases. Surely in many, but I’ve also seem a few situations where parents set the bar VERY low on purpose, because they genuinely believe their children will not have opportunities to better themselves because of their position in life. I never really thought about this in terms of “love”, but I can clearly see the relationship. Not only do these kids believe they can’t get ahead, they are learning that they cannot expect to ever depend on anyone other than themselves. I’ve said before that several young women I know well have told me they do not expect to find a decent guy, because they truly believe they either do not exist, or they will NEVER be in the position to snag one for themselves because of their SES. Sadly I can’t argue with them based on what I see around me.
And again, let me state that I feel a bit awkward even discussing this, because as you put it the conversation is far from PC, and as a White Male(TM) I risk being labelled a racist or worse. To me, it isn’t about race at all, but has much more to do with SES and social issues. It just so happens that in the past the overwhelming majority of folks at the bottom of the SES ladder have been minorities. I’m certainly not going to minimize what the Black community has suffered through, and I know that I cannot relate directly as someone that has never dealt with the “business end” of racial profiling and discrimination, but that doesn’t mean I can’t look around me and see where the problems are. And as much as most of this stuff has historically been “Black” issues, I can clearly see that they are no longer being confined by race. You are correct that the Black community has been the canary in the coal mine for decades, and I am saying that at least around me, these issues have spread beyond the confines of race and religion. It is very much a “class” issue around here.
@VD
I figured people might be shocked. I was very unsure what to do, and I asked advice from several trusted older people. I really believed (and still do) that he was just freaking out about the commitment, and never having the chance to sleep with anyone else. I’m sure he and Mary lost their virginity to one another. Why he thought I’d be game, I don’t know! I was sort of offended, to tell you the truth, that he thought I’d go for a ONS with my good friend’s fiance. Double insult.
AFAIK, he has been a true and faithful husband. We still do the Christmas card thing. IDK if I made the right call. If it had been me, I would have wanted to know. But I was pretty sure she didn’t.
@Ted D
I admire and respect the expectations you have for your kids. Our society could use a lot more parents like you.
And no worries, I did not feel attacked. I am actually interested to learn about the different ways people experience the SMP, culture, etc. I completely recognize that my own location is not at all representative of most Americans, in a lot of ways. I need to know what’s going on elsewhere, and among different populations.
Susan – “I admire and respect the expectations you have for your kids. Our society could use a lot more parents like you.”
The funny thing is, I believe that by my grandparents standards I would be deemed FAR too lenient with my children.
Obsidian – Thanks for the link. Very interesting story that I see mirrors some of the points I made in my last post. I think what surprises me the most is just how involved our own government was in causing this problem. It just proves what I’ve always believed: the government should stay out of individual live’s and concentrate on simply fostering an environment where everyone has a fair chance to succeed. It seems like even when they have good intentions (which I don’t believe is often anyway) the Fed is just too large and too out of touch with what is going on in the streets to do anything but make it worse.
Of course, those folks that are really part of the conspiracy set believe all of this is 100% intentional to keep us all “in control” by the powers that be. Who knows for sure? I would just like the government to stay out of my business, and keep the rest of the world from dragging us down. Fat chance of that happening though…
@Alias
That’s a great story and great advice. There’s no downside to keeping your eyes wide open early if you have the self-discipline to be that selective. After college, when some dating does occur, I think it’s essential that young women be on the lookout for red flags and continually assess whether the man they’re interested in is “still” marriage material. What is needed is a strong and consistently applied filter. The opportunity cost of wasting time dating people who are not marriage material is high for both sexes, but especially high for women in view of the timeline.
@OTC
Thanks, I guess, sorta. FWIW, I’ve never lied on any of these blogs, but you’re right that I see things from a female perspective. I would expect that guys could reverse engineer things from there though.
@Alias
I agree that you’ll rarely see a happily married guy on these blogs. Men don’t like relationship chat, and they don’t like to ask for help. I have to adnire the level of courage it takes to comment in the ‘sphere–even when I don’t agree with the comment.
There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. (I am probably missing some.) I think it’s because they’re interested in society and culture, and the changes brought about by the Sex Rev. And there’s also a strong desire to advise younger guys, which I appreciate.
OTC,
The resistance to this is truly amazing. Guys will see what works over and over and over again, and still dismiss it, make excuses and complain about their terrible luck. I’ve offered to help many guys like this, but 99% of the time they don’t take me up on my offer, as it is must be a male ego thing.
Conincidentally, there is one guy in my social cirlce who I have offered to help since this past fall, and he finally came around a couple weeks ago due to another painful experience with the dating game (he is pretty much the nicest guy ever, which shocking, has never worked). I took him out this past Friday, explained the basics of me being a wingman to him and told him that I would help him with any set of girls he desires, but he must open first (generally a sticking point, though I gave him good situational openers when needed). He did pretty well for this first time, with me giving him pointers throughout the night, and he ended up getting two numbers from fairly attractive girls who showed genuine interest at points. The next day he even came over to my place to personally thank me, say he had fun and wants to continue to improve.
OTOH, there was another guy out with us, who is also in my current social circle, who is the epitome of the excuse making male. I’ve offered to help him before, and he always declines, which is fine, but on Friday I went off on him due to his many snide remarks and comments towards the other guy. It’s almost as if he resents the fact that the first guy is trying to improve himself and hit lot with women, and rather than improve himself, he just wants to tear others down to his level. Needless to say, he is getting ever closer to social circle banishment.
J/Alias: Vox, Athol, Ian Ironwood have their own blogs. Quite a lot more a men’s forum I visit. Men like Mike C, ExNY, David Collard, comment enough that they are bit more common than knitters…. as men generally prefer sex over knitting.
@Susan
After an interesting Freudian slip on her part Saturday evening I might be on track for this…not 100% sure, but the possibility is now there.
@Susan #395
… and Lokland!!
Susan, I am here in part to learn what my poor children are facing.
Jason, I sort of sympathize with those guys. You may think you can exlpain to them how to do it right and your tactics may indeed be right but not everyone can put it into practice.
I don’t know where confidence with women comes from but I don’t think it’s so easy to learn. I also don’t think it’s a simple outgrowth of confidence in other fields. I was never very smooth around women and still am not. You can exhort me all you want and it won’t matter. I don’t have the inner game to do cold approaches and the like and I don’t think my personality could ever be trained for it.
@Jason
This often turns into blaming the women for not appreciating them. Once a guy falls into that trap, he’ll find plenty of support online. He’ll be spoon fed a vocabulary beginning with femcentrism, blah blah blah. He’ll express his rage with female nature, and again, high fives all around. It reminds me of this scene:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3TKut1F1zE
Recognize the guy in the hat?
J – “I agree that you’ll rarely see a happily married guy on these blogs.”
I agree with this. But I don’t think it is always because men don’t like relationship talk. I think there are several reasons with that being one of them.
1. Guys don’t like to talk about relationships (or anything with an emotional component to it)
2. Happily married guys aren’t searching the internet for “game” advice.
3. Happily married men aren’t looking to find out why their marriages failed. (that is how I found my way here…)
4. “ragging” on your wife is a time honored tradition among males (and I’m sure females as well) and it just isn’t very good for a man’s reputation with other men to go on and on about how awesome their GF/Wife is.
That all being said, I know of a few happily partnered men (not all are married) that are more than happy to “talk shop” in the comfort of their friends and the privacy of personal space. I think I’ve said here before that despite all my posts to the contrary I am actually very happy with my current relationship and am doing my best to keep it that way, even while I continue to read and post in the ‘sphere. Early on it was all about me and what I wanted/needed to know. But now I find myself just as if not more interested in simply learning more. I want to find a way to get this message out to more people, and do my best to guide my children and their friends (if they come to me for help) through this mess of a dating market. God willing I’ll never need to be “on the prowl” again, but if that turns out to be true, it doesn’t mean everything I learned is useless, and it doesn’t mean I don’t have something to contribute to the conversation. I think that if those happily married men knew just how bad some guys have it, they might be a bit more vocal about the positives of marriage. I’ve been divorced and I’m still a supporter myself, although I would advise any man planning marriage to really dig into the legal issues before saying “I Do”.
Of course, and that reminds me of Mule Chewing Briars, too.
Susan – “There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. ”
In the interests of keeping things legit, I am not married at the moment but I am living with my SO. And, although I’ve kept it quiet, we are indeed getting married this August. We’ve been talking about and planning it since the beginning of the year, but there were a lot of things to get in place first. This is the second go around for both of us, so we aren’t going nuts with it.
@Jason
That’s awesome that you helped your buddy out, and that he saw improvement immediately. I think a lot of guys need some basic red pill stuff, then a nudge, and they’ll do fine. Especially if they want a gf, not to tear up the scene with SNLs.
Susan, what if he didn’t think this:
But did think this:
Would you still have been offended?
Ramble, so many women are offended pretty much no matter what you do or say, objectively. Men hit on me? Offended they think I am easy! Nobody hits on me? Offended that nobody thinks I am attractive!
The fact that both cannot logically happen at the same time is irrelevant, unless you think outside the box and realize she WANTS to be offended and is just searching for some convenient reason. And that offense is usually some sort of tactic to get something else – sympathy, maybe emotional support, maybe dinner, whatever.
The wise man accepts it, dismisses it all as mildly annoying but ultimately pointless dramatic emotional turmoil, and doesn’t let it change his actions.
“I agree with this. For the record, I have already told my daughter that now (just post college) is the time to begin searching for a quality man. If she finds him tomorrow, I’ll be thrilled, and do not feel that she has to delay marriage just because she is young. But I still hope she would delay childbirth for a few years.”
I read an interesting theory about this. I think it was Athol who said it. If the woman has not gotten pregnant in the first three years of the relationship both partners bodies/subconcious might reject the other because no baby means evoloutionary failure. This can be the case even it they don`t want children now or ever. One can think of it like this: The first 3 years is normally the end point of the first crush/infatuation/crazy in love feelings/amphetamine rush and marks the point where many couples only have pair bonding feelings of love and maybe sexual attraction maybe not but no more of the first love feelings. If the couple has a baby within that time there might be some sort of signaling in the brain or intermixing of chemicals that makes the brain keep producing a fair amount of amphetamins++ to keep a moderate amount of the crazy in love feelings going together with the pair bonding feelings. Helen Fishers research shows 13% of long term couples do keep feelings from the first more manic love alongside pair bonding feelings but most do not. I have no idea if there is any correlation between being in that group and at what time they had a child or if they ever had one. Obviously there are also couples who have childlessly stayed together strongly in love for life so there is no either or and there is zero evidence for the theory but I find it intriguing because it makes some sense. Some couples would have an infertile partner and it would sense for there to be inbuilt mechanisms to aid in rejecting someone who’s shown themselves to be infertile and not vast more time with them and to aid in keeping round someone who’s shown themselves to be fertile.
Vox, Ian Ironwood, Ex New Yorker (one of my original guys!), Passer By, and Private First Class Lokland. And I’m sure there are still more. Obsidian is in a LTR. David Foster? Joe!
@Herb
Oh wow, keep us posted!
Susan, that guy, as far as I can tell, did not so much get the red pill but a road map and some hand-holding from someone who has apparently had plenty of experience getting new pussy.
The other guy who is unwilling to try but IS willing to complain may very well have taken the red pill as well.
Escoffier,
I do have a bit of sympathy for their situation, thus my offers to help. What I don’t have is sympathy for the guy who gets offered help, refuses, then makes fun of others who are trying to improve. I fully understand that for some, just doing a single cold approach seems like the most daunting task in the world. The guy who I am ‘training’ opened up multiple sets throughout the night (with me about 60sec behind him so I could analyze his approaches), and though he started off a bit rusty, he improved a bunch from his first set of the night to his last.
This guy, who is at least trying, does not need to come back to a group where one guy trys to dog him out the whole time. Later in the night I literally told this guy to go talk to a girl himself instead of grasping a drink and bopping his head around dudes all night, or simply fuck off. He got the message.
Oh, and Sue, I am sort of running with the story a bit… Not saying you were looking for offense there. Bit of a tanget on my part. But I see it a whole lot…
Congrats, Herb! (I hope.)
Susan,
Yea, it’s definitely a lot of fun for me too, especially when a guy is receptive to what I’m trying to get across. Right this second my buddy is on gchat peppering me with questions about body language, kino, etc. lol. It looks like he got a taste and wants to see what it’s all about.
And don’t worry Susan, this is the kind of guy who would simply love to have a gf who adores him and who he adores back. Just need to get him there.
@Ted D
Warm congratulations! That’s wonderful news.
@ Jason773
I hear you man. The thing is that this is definitely not just a guy problem. Women are very prone to this type of behavior as well. My sister is the prime example of this.
While we were growing up, she often asked me why/how I was able to garner the attention of boys while she had a harder time with it. I’ve told her the ways of “girl game” and offered suggestions of how she could improve herself countless times. She still, to this day, refuses to listen to me whenever I offer her advice about guys or whenever I offer to be her wingwoman.
Her problems mostly stem from the fact that she is painfully shy. She sincerely doesn’t know how to flirt with men or how to signal interest. She wonders why the men don’t approach her, and most of that stems from her inability to give men the green light to approach her. She’s 26, never had a boyfriend, and still a virgin. I’m hoping that things work out for her eventually, but I’m not sure that they will without her being willing to change/improve certain aspects of herself.
@Ramble
I was offended by both aspects – that’s why I said double insult. I was definitely not slutty in college, at that point my number was two.
Way to generalize! Sheesh, I’m not allowed to be offended by an inappropriate sexual proposition from my friend’s fiance who was only pretending to have a broken down car? That was offensive on so many levels…and he showed his true colors that night. If he’s never cheated on his wife, it’s thanks to me.
Ramble,
That’s fair enough. My friend is a person I would consider a truly nice guy, who legit does things to help others out, not because he expects something in return, but just because he likes to make others happy. I have no problem trying to help him out and give him a solid road-map.
With some good guidance (and acceptance on his part) I’m sure I can make his journey a lot less troublesome than most, in about half the time. And to be fair, he is short (about 5’8″) but he pretty good looking, in shape and intelligent (an engineer), so those things help in the process.
@Wudang
That is an interesting theory. There may be some effect, but for a lot of people that would mean having no time alone before kids. I am so glad my husband and I had that carefree time to enjoy one another without the cares of parenting. We got together in ’82, married in ’84 and had our first child in ’87. I would very definitely not have wanted to move that up by two years.
@Ramble
Do you realize you’re questioning the usefulness of taking the red pill?
@OTC
Oh, OK, I took offense (again!) too soon.
@Susan
I agree. I`d like some time loan first as well. But for 99,9% of history babies started coming quickly as long as you had sex so that is kind of unatural although enjoyable.
There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson.
Yeah, that’s true; I stand corrected. Sometimes the bitching just gets overwhelming.
@OTC
David Collard???? The spanker??? LMAO.
Susan:
“That’s a great story and great advice. There’s no downside to keeping your eyes wide open early if you have the self-discipline to be that selective. After college, when some dating does occur, I think it’s essential that young women be on the lookout for red flags and continually assess whether the man they’re interested in is “still” marriage material. What is needed is a strong and consistently applied filter. The opportunity cost of wasting time dating people who are not marriage material is high for both sexes, but especially high for women in view of the timeline.”
—————
Susan,
Hopefully you don’t feel offended by my comments because they’re not aimed at you directly.
It’s not that I don’t know quite a bit of never married single folks, because I certainly do.
I just want to present a different strategy than the more prevalent ones out there.
True, there are those relationships that didn’t pan out, but, at least, there was a genuine effort to make them work. Of course, the advice is sound only IF you’re selective and only when you’re willing to nip it at the bud if there’s a problem before becoming too invested in the other person.
Kinda piggybacking on Obsidian’s observation-
successful relationships, like anything else, don’t just fall from the sky- they require deliberate actions.
So, would you have only been “singly” insulted had he tried this after your number was higher (and included a ONS or two)?
@Susan and J
Well, the short version:
1. We have talked about moving in together, which, to be honest, as a 45 yo member of the ‘sphere in some ways appeals more than marriage (but not in others). While I initiated it a while back she’s brought it up more lately. Still some issues, but we’ll see.
2. She has brought up the issue of monogamy (not me). It’s also been clear of late although she’s still nominally poly I am getting much more time than the other two combined. When asked she’s admitted she’s putting the lion’s share of energy into me.
3. This past weekend was SELF, the event we met at last year. Talking about how friends encouraged me to volunteer at events to meet people she substituted met with another m-word by accident (that’s the Freudian slip). Took us both by surprise to the point it took 15 minutes to remember the prior topic.
So, I’m not sure. I mean, this is the longest I’ve been with someone…well, yeah, since my marriage (I had a ldr thing that lasted longer but we’ve had more face time long ago). In fact, this is now my longest relationship outside of my marriage. I’m happier today than I was a year ago when it was all NRE (and clearly happier than in March when I had to sit down and work through the whole poly thing). I still have some worries and I still plan on taking it slow (given children aren’t on the table for us we have more time than we might).
But I’m hopeful.
Sounds like a good man and it sounds like he is getting solid advice.
These are my favorite stories.
@Ted
Oh, wow. Congratulations!!! All the best to the both of you.
Sassy,
I hear what you’re saying as well. I think it can be especially difficult for a female if she isn’t a typical beauty while being very shy. My first gf in college was extremely shy upon meeting, and was seemingly unreceptive to approaches because she had a tendency to completely ‘freeze up’, but the fact that she was very pretty gave her enough opportunities to meet men.
Girl game is certainly needed among some ladies though, and I’m sure that can be tough to swallow for some.
I still plan on taking it slow (given children aren’t on the table for us we have more time than we might).
That makes a lot of sense, Herb. If I were in the market for a second husband, I’d go slow too. No hurry now that having a family is not an issue.
I didn’t mean to.
What I was trying to communicate was that you can “take the red pill” and barely get any better at getting girls. And, you can learn how to get better with girls while not getting much of a Red Pill-ish education.
Sometimes they go hand in hand and sometimes they don’t.
For some guys, taking the red pill simply increases their bitterness (though, I don’t think it would in and of itself make them bitter…but that is probably splitting hairs).
And, for some guys, getting better with girls simply turns them into a douche.
But, my guess is that getting some of both (red pill and picking up girls) will make most men better long term material.
Jason, what I notice in your response is a thread I often see on game sites, viz., the undercurrent that any man who can’t or won’t learn pick up is somehow not a real man.
Early congrats, Ted D!
Wudang, about the kids thing, from everything I hear sex plummets after having a kid, and I know couples whose marriage failed before the kid turned 3. So I don’t know that neurochemically kids really solidify lifelong bonds. It is more true that among more educated, future-oriented people who are high on conscientiousness, marriage lasts longer.
Susan:
“There are a bunch of happily married guys at HUS. OTC, Escoff, Megaman, Mike C (engaged), Ted D, Munson. ”
——–
Yes, these men aren’t the norm. Also, most relationship forums are for discussing individual’s issues not the bigger societal picture, like this blog attempts to address.
BTW, has anyone “seen” Munson lately?
Escoffier,
Interesting that you somehow picked this up, when I think this couldn’t be further from the truth. Do I think just about all guys could benefit in some form from Game? Sure I do. Do I ever chastize or put down my friends who are/were Game averse? No, I don’t. I simply offered a helping hand after seeing failure after failure, and if they want to take me up that’s great. If not, then no harm.
But why should I put up with someone’s negative attitude when it is coming from a place of pure jealousy and spite? The guy I told off, yes, I offered him help, and he didn’t take it, but I never made fun of him or made him feel less of a man. He was the one trying to put down our other buddy in order to make himself feel better. That’s something I’ve noticed a lot in guys who don’t consider or condone game.
Whoa, I did not read that at all.
One guy is lonely and is receptive to some genuine advice.
Another guy is lonely and,
1.) Is not receptive and
2.) Willing to badmouth the guy who is.
It’s the second part that is egregious. If he only wanted to sit in his room and cry to himself without bothering anyone else, then, while pathetic, no worries.
He is only harming himself.
However, here, he is looking to take someone else down with him.
OTC:
“as men generally prefer sex over knitting.”
——-
WHAT?!
You’re kidding me, right? ha
Yes, you’re right, I forgot about all of those happily married bloggers. But, you have to admit that majority of their readership only lands on their blogs because they’re in trouble. Most happily married men don’t gather together to brag and gush about their great relationships. Hopefully, those bloggers are setting a new trend.
Ramble – “It’s the second part that is egregious. If he only wanted to sit in his room and cry to himself without bothering anyone else, then, while pathetic, no worries.
He is only harming himself.
However, here, he is looking to take someone else down with him.”
Unfortunately this is human nature. Not only are most people unwilling to change, they HATE to see someone else succeed where they failed, or in this case where they never tried to succeed themselves. And the saying “misery loves company” ties in nicely here.
Alias, is that something you would want? I mean, would you also want them starting lolcatz blogs as well?
Ted, that’s right.
@Alias
I’d say that’s the overarching message of my site. That and not making those deliberate actions random hookups.
I wasn’t at all offended, your point was totally valid.
@SW
You know, prior to ~1990 a *majority* of women who went to college met their future spouses there. I see your point about women waiting until 28 to marry, but I’m not sure that’s true for the non-graduate degree crowd. I’m all for people getting good relationship experience with someone you love, even though it may not work out in the long-run. I actually think quite a few college women go through their undergraduate careers single, with little or no intimacy. Pretty sad, actually, for the guys and the girls.
Inadvertantly, you’ve validated serial monogamy at best, and the hookup scene at worst. And many of your male regulars view serial monogamy as not much better than promiscuity. It’s a good question, though… why should a guy looking for a serious relationship in college ever get involved with someone? After all, these aren’t *real* relationships, and he’s bound to have his heart broken, if it’s the girl doing the dumping after graduation.
@Ramble
If I had a reputation for casual sex, and he approached me for some, I would not have been insulted. I definitely would not have had a right to take offense. As it was, my college bf and I double dated with Bill and Mary a lot. He was way out of bounds on every level.
@Herb
That sounds really encouraging, and it also points to the need for patience sometimes. As you say, you don’t have time pressure, but one of the things that ends promising relationships early is that one party gets impatient and makes too many demands too soon. They fail to calibrate the escalation, whether emotional or sexual. Obviously, that can vary enormously by couple, and commitment tends to follow that.
He’s been at Private Man’s blog recently, and stopped in here very briefly a couple of weeks ago. I believe he is still undergoing chemo, but have had no other reports.
all right, my mistake
@ms hope:
You have specifically mentioned “education” and “future orientation” in your remarks about the odds of a marriage lasting longer. What do you say of murrays arguments per the bell curve? Do you agree with them or not and why? And how does this dovetail with my question “do black women select for intelligence in their men?”?
Comments?
O.
Ramble:
“Alias, is that something you would want? I mean, would you also want them starting lolcatz blogs as well?”
——
If the men want to and it helps strengthen relationships, then why not?
_
___________________________________________
Ted D:
““ragging” on your wife is a time honored tradition among males (and I’m sure females as well) and it just isn’t very good for a man’s reputation with other men to go on and on about how awesome their GF/Wife is.”
——–
This is such a terrible habit to get into- similar to:
“Hey, long time no see, how have you been?”
“Well, not too good. I’ve been having diarrhea and have to make a pitstop every ½ hour, plus it burns.”
“Uh, Oh-Kay, it was nice seeing you, gotta go”
“Waaaait, are you going to the john? I’ll come with you!”
We all know people like this.
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