Wharton School economists Justin Wolfers and Betsey Stevenson have always done interesting work – they published the controversial paper The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness, which demonstrated that women are far less happy in their lives today than they were before the Women’s Movement, both in absolute terms, and also relative to men.
More recently their work has focused on the link between economic growth and subjective well-being. They have found that people’s subjective assessments of their lives are very reliable, and that growth in GDP per capita predicts growth in self-reported well-being. In fact, Wolfers says the correlation is 0.82, the highest correlation he’s ever seen for any two factors.
Wolfers and Stevenson ascribe great importance to family dynamics as part of well-being, because what happens in families strongly affects economic decisions. Consequently, they focus heavily on family, marriage and divorce in their research. In a recent interview with the Gallup business journal, they discuss the nature of their research. I think it’s a fascinating follow-up to my previous post on risk factors for divorce. Excerpts follow.
“Your other areas of research focus include marriage, divorce, and family. Why would these areas interest economists?
Dr. Stevenson: …Families and labor markets are intimately connected, and to understand one, it’s helpful to understand the other. That’s because decisions about labor force participation and about what kinds of jobs to take and what kind of hours to keep are made within the context of family lives. What happens in families affects the way people make those kinds of decisions. And what happens in labor markets affects the decisions people make about families.
Dr. Wolfers: The first place that people notice the similarities between family and economics is in what some have called the marriage market, which looks a whole lot like the labor market. People search for partners the same way they search for jobs. When you find a spouse or a job that looks like a good fit, you take it. And you must make a decision about how much time to spend searching for the perfect spouse or the perfect job before accepting a job or a spouse.”
Is that part of the reason why people who wait until they’re older to get married have a lower divorce rate? Because, being better experienced, they have more insight into the marriage market?
Dr. Stevenson: …It’s a fact that the divorce rate is much lower among people who marry when they’re older. What is harder to know is whether the types of people who wait are the types of people who are less likely to divorce or whether the act of waiting reduces your chance of divorce. But the differences in divorce rates of people who marry in their early 20s versus people who marry in their early 30s is quite large. These are much bigger differences than the differences in the divorce rate across generations.
- One reason might be that those people who marry later have spent a longer time searching, which means that they’re not willing to settle until they have a higher quality match in the marriage market, which in turn means that marriage is less likely to dissolve.
- The other possibility is that we’re not static; when we’re in our 20s, we’re not good at projecting what we’ll want in our 30s and 40s and 50s. It may be that we have better information when we’re older than when we’re younger about what we’re looking for in a partner. You do see some data that suggests that what people in their 20s say are important qualities in a mate are different from what people in their 30s look for.
By the same token, you look for different skills and attitudes in an entry-level employee than you do in an executive employee.
Dr. Stevenson: Yes. And just like most entry-level employees will not become the CEO or a senior executive, I can tell you I was pretty certain most of my boyfriends weren’t going to make the cut. Not all dating is about trying to find a spouse. There is a difference between what you might want in a date on a Saturday night when you’re 19 and what you might be looking for in someone to spend the rest of your life with.
Has anything in your research into family structures or the marriage market surprised you?
Dr. Stevenson: I’m [surprised] that marriage rates in the last few decades have increased so significantly for highly-educated women. This is something you must think through carefully. If you go back to the 1960s, women who went to college weren’t very likely to get married compared with women who didn’t go to college. That was because marriage was largely about women staying home and taking care of the family, while men were in the labor market bringing home the cash. Women who were trained with skills that would be useful in the labor market were not necessarily better spouses. In many ways they were worse spouses because they were spending four years in college instead of learning how to cook. So these women were the least likely of all women to marry.
In the ensuing decades, that has completely reversed; now college-educated women are becoming the most likely to marry. We’ve also seen marriages shift from that 1950s model—where the man specializes in labor market production and the wife specializes in home production and the household is more efficient because of that specialization—to marriages where the benefits come from shared consumption rather than that shared production. We’ve seen a shift from the old model of opposites attract to one in which couples thrive when they have similar tastes and similar preferences in leisure activities, consumption, and how they divide their time between work and play.
Doctors used to marry nurses and now doctors marry doctors.
Dr. Stevenson: Exactly. That’s a real example of that. In fact, you see that in the data—there’s an increase in couples marrying who have similar educational backgrounds.
The marriage market in summary:
- People search for partners the same way they search for jobs. When you find a spouse or a job that looks like a good fit, you take it.
- You must make a decision about how much time to spend searching for the perfect spouse.
- Not all dating is about trying to find a spouse.
- Couples thrive when they have similar tastes and similar preferences in leisure activities, consumption, and how they divide their time between work and play.
- The differences in divorce rates of people who marry in their early 20s versus people who marry in their early 30s is quite large.
My advice, as always:
- Date around until you have found someone truly compatible and worthy.
- Date only men who have the qualities of a good husband and father – now.
- Never marry unless you and your partner are head over heels in love. If you have to wonder, you’re not.
- Marry someone who shares your values, your interests and your priorities in life.
- For women who wish to have children, delaying marriage beyond peak fertility (27) increases risk.
{ 231 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 »
T.T it’s just so unfair. Being a girl is so tough lol. we have to do EVERYTHING (childbearing, housework AND a career equal to the man wtf) nowadays just to get someone who makes at least as much money as us?? ugh.
I’m not ambitious to be a doctor. I’m screwed lol. XD
Ironically this goes against feminism in proving that women are not equal, but superior to men >_>;;
so yeah. that was my worrisome and bitter rant about the pressure i’m under. ^^;
Could there be one other reason why a 38 year old woman would be less likely to re-enter the meat market relative to a 28 year old woman?
Hmm, this is a real hard one.
Some girls think to themselves:
“I am head over heels in love with him.”
Others think:
“So far I have not done that great in this meat market and I am only getting older, so, marry this fairly nice guy or get a houseful of cats?”
Some girls can afford your advice more than others.
“When you find a spouse or a job that looks like a good fit, you take it.”
And ANY criteria you use to determine that fit is perfectly valid and acceptable
Have they thoroughly enough checked that age is an independent variable and that the effect isen`t just that the older crowd are more likely to have an education and good jobs and high income etc.?
I think hormones explain a fair share. After thirty I am more drawn to the calming pair bonding feelings than I was in the testosterone fog of bye early twenties. So I am more likely to make a choice now that is compatible with the person I will be the rest of my life (more and more hormonally primed for calming pair binding feelings) than I was ten years ago. Back then it was more about primal attraction and fun. I am certain this is the case for women as well and that there indeed is a genuine hormonal based change towards attraction to more beta qualities.
Dodging the period of peak female market value must also be important. Women should be more likely to divorce and to cheat when their options are the greatest and when the men they most likely are with (young) are at their lowest value. I read somewhere that while cheating is about equal for both genders now women under 25 cheat much more than men but I don`t know if other studies back up this claim.
@Ramble
Wouldn’t the decrease in female-initiated divorce in later years (if it’s real – I am not sure it is) be offset by an increase in male-initiated divorce?
Personally, I would MUCH rather stay single than marry someone I was not in love with. I don’t see the upside in that. I’d rather go it alone, maybe the turkey baster route. The alternative is being stuck with someone (and their needs) who you’re definitely not hot for. That sounds like a prison sentence. Single women have never had it so good – their numbers are increasing, the stigma is decreasing, and if they don’t saddle themselves with a bunch of cats they can take off whenever they like. My order of preference:
1. Marry man you are mutually in love with.
2. Remain single.
3. Arranged marriage.
4. Marry good man with no tingles.
5. Marry player with tingles.
6. Marry serial killer.
Wouldn’t the decrease in female-initiated divorce in later years (if it’s real – I am not sure it is) be offset by an increase in male-initiated divorce?
Just because a woman is *not* initiating divorce, does not mean that a man wants to get raped in divorce court and lose custody of his children.
Personally, I would MUCH rather stay single than marry someone I was not in love with. I don’t see the upside in that. I’d rather go it alone, maybe the turkey baster route.
Each person needs to ask themselves these questions. I appreciate your answer, and I agree.
My personal belief is that people who end up getting married later (often) have learned from the mistakes of their friends and family …
A few years ago I was working with (mostly) new grads and I would often predict what was going to happen in their relationship long before it happened. One of my co-workers had been living with his girlfriend for a few years (while he finished school) and a large portion of the money he earned while working his internship was spent decorating the town house they shared. I met his girlfriend a few times and I got a pretty good feeling for what she was about. After he had worked for a year they had enough money for a down-payment and decided to build a new place and I warned him that this would probably result in him “needing” to buy new furniture; and he didn’t believe me because what they had was already pretty new and she was going to be selecting the colours for the new place. After he moved into his new place she started talking about how they needed to replace all the furniture because it didn’t match the new place.
I wasn’t psychic, I had just seen this play out several times before with girls who were similar to her …
Regardless of whether the man is the most experienced with women or not he will likely have seen countless things from women that he will try to seek out or avoid in a partner; and it is likely that women will have had similar experiences. While these pairings will (probably) not be as driven by passion as younger marriages, they will likely be based on much more realistic assessments of what you want in a marriage.
In an odd way you could say that an older marriage might be more similar to the choices that a family may make for someone in an arranged marriage. After all, families will be looking for what makes you happy not what makes you horny.
@Ramble
What percentage of the time does this happen? One third of divorces are filed by men – do they all get raped in divorce court? What percentage of divorces are amicably mediated? What percentage are 50/50 custody?
No-fault divorce makes it very, very difficult to get at the reasons for divorce, but surely this other data must be readily available?
Susan, in all honestly, I am NOT an expert on these things. I lean a little to the MRA side on this issue because of some guys I knew and how their ex-wives treated them.
Still, I do remember reading some disturbing information on the likelihood of Men getting custody of the children.
@Ramble
If the wife chooses to fight for custody the man will get screwed, but not all women fight for custody. I could be wrong but I suspect that most older women who get “bored” with their husbands and believe they can do better generally want joint custody because they need the time away from their children to date men.
Usually these women don’t realize how poor their prospects are until after they have been single for awhile.
@Peppermint Panda
That was my experience. Here are some of the things I learned by dating. I might have just as easily read them in a book, but experiencing them drove them home as lessons for choosing a husband:
1. Someone who chronically procrastinates drives me crazy, as I tend to be organized.
2. I am uncomfortable with very impulsive decisions and purchases.
3. A man who does not enjoy reading is not a good match for me.
4. It’s important to laugh at the same stuff.
5. It’s not important to agree politically, but it is important to have an opinion.
6. Due to my level of extraversion, I am a poor choice for a man who tends towards jealousy and suspicion.
7. I don’t like being with a man whose sex drive is lower than mine.
8. Don’t choose someone who hopes to be famous someday.
9. End a relationship after any significant lie.
10. Run away from a man who says, “You’re the only person who understands me.”
11. End a relationship at the first sign of anger management issues.
12. Don’t date a man who doesn’t love his mother.
13. Don’t date a man who hates his father.
14. End a relationship after any infidelity – including emotional, or even just kissing another girl.
15. If you harbor a sneaking suspicion he might be gay, get out.
16. Don’t date anyone who blames others for their lack of success – other races, the other sex, coworkers, the boss, their parents, etc.
I could literally go on for hours, and I only dated from age 17-25. When I met my husband, I knew he was the one in a very short time.
@Ramble
I know first hand that there are inequities in family law, as MA had the worst alimony in the country until last year. What I don’t know is how widespread the inequities are, or how often they come into play. My brother’s divorce was mediated, with everything split down the middle, including custody. I don’t know whether that’s typical or unusual. I would like to see some data.
“If the wife chooses to fight for custody the man will get screwed, but not all women fight for custody.”
My ex and I sat down and had a long, hard conversation about custody before the divorce was even filed. In the end, we both agreed that the best thing for our children was to leave them in the environment they grew up in, which meant they stayed with me because she wanted to move back to her home town in another state. It turns out that I moved us closer to my new employer, and my daughter decided she wanted to spend her senior year of HS with her mother. She graduated this spring, and wants to move back with me because there are many more college opportunities here. Through all of this, my son has stayed with me and spends summer’s with his mother, which has worked out very well.
It CAN be done, but it takes two people that are NOT putting their own needs before their children’s, and it takes a lot of maturity to keep the feelings between the two of you (the adults getting divorced) from getting in the way of doing the right thing. I make it a point to get our son over to visit his mother as often as possible, and my ex has an open invitation to come over and visit anytime she wants. Just recently she was over with her live-in boyfriend and his son to see my boy play tuba in his spring band concert. It isn’t even awkward anymore. Sure, at first it was weird to say the least, but its easy to see that it improves my son’s life a great deal, and at least for now that is our primary concern.
To be honest, I find it revolting that anyone would ever “fight” for custody. Children are not possessions to be divided along with the savings account. Unless there is a possibility of abuse, there is NO reason to put a child through something as horrible as a custody battle.
@ Susan Advice 3: “Never marry unless you and your partner are head over heels in love. If you have to wonder, you’re not.”
I agree that this is ideal but how realistic is it and how often? Due to hypergamy a large % of women are less likely to feel head-over-heels in love with someone that would also be head-over-heels in love with them. I have a lot of friends who are girls. Some became pretty realistic about their MMV and married someone compatible and they seemed in love. Others are still single into their 30′s and have unrealistic expectations. I know many successful career girls who expect a man at about the same level or higher than they are and they think they deserve it. However, their physical attractiveness isn’t high enough to push the fall-in-love buttons in their desired men. I know a successful girl–but 3-4 in looks–who is holding out for a man who has an MMV of ~8. I also know a mid-30′s girl with an MBA and good job who’s like a 7.5 in looks and used to be an 8 who didn’t think her boyfriend (he seemed like about a 7 or 8 in MMV and getting better as his career moves on) was good enough for her. She’s still single and he now has a new GF that’s probably a bit cuter.
I love to talk with my female friends about their relationships and I always tell them to get realistic: do what you can to up your overall attractiveness (looks, personality, interests, etc.), trim the list to the bare basics, and learn to be happy with the best you can get (within reason, avoiding settling too low) instead of holding out for too long for the ideal man and relegating your genes to evolutionary oblivion.
Off the top of my head, about 40% soon come to a reasonable estimate of their MMV, 50% are trying to get a man ~2 levels higher than their own MMV and maybe 10% are in the depths of low self-esteem despair, settling for guys below them. Both the 50% and 10% make me roll my eyes and lovingly and verbally attempt to shock them into reality.
Black America leads the way again.
New option – become part of the harem. Better to have 1/20 of a baller than all of a BAN*
http://www.balleralert.com
*Ask Obsidian for translation. I’m too white to get away with it.
@Lurking Less
You make a good point – it’s the Kate Bolick dilemma. The truth is, many women’s attraction triggers have gotten out of whack in this SMP. I pity women who have succumbed completely to the culture because they are unlikely to find true love at all. They are simply not attracted to men of their own SMV. Research shows that attraction triggers are malleable, and that attraction can definitely grow via familiarity, for example. I’ve known women who were extremely demanding about superficial traits and then fell hard for someone they worked with. Upon meeting their perfect guy, I was surprised (and pleased) to see that the woman had finally fallen for someone of similar attractiveness. The smart women will do this, and the holdouts will remain single. While attraction is not a choice per se, I believe women should give themselves every opportunity to fall for people over time by ruling guys in rather than ruling them out.
Ultimately, as the number of unhappily single women rises and the media serves them up, either as cautionary tales or “liberated singles by choice” (which isn’t fooling anybody), some young women – not all – will participate in the course correction.
In short, women should either figure out how to reset their triggers or stay single. I think it’s totally unfair to any man for a woman to marry him if she is not in love with him. At the *very* least, a woman owes it to a man to lay that out there, so that she’s not deceiving him. Still, I don’t think this is the way good marriages are made.
End a relationship after any significant lie.
Excellent advice.
End a relationship at the first sign of anger management issues.
Susan, in an era where more and more girls do not have any brothers, that piece of advice will become more problematic.
I have known a few girls who were blown away when they saw a man get genuinely angry.
Don’t date a man who doesn’t love his mother.
I completely understand where you are coming from, but, my father hated his mother. My mother hated his mother. My parents adored one another.
Don’t date a man who hates his father.
Bruce Springsteen, apparently, had a very difficult relationship with his dad.
“I’d rather go it alone, maybe the turkey baster route.”
Oy. Please tell me this is a joke.
Pretty good article and summation.
I’d sum it up this way: Regardless of whether you’re going the single route or the looking for a husband route, HAVE A PLAN.
This doesn’t mean you can’t change the plan. Doesn’t mean you can’t scrap the plan and start over. It also does not mean that external circumstances won’t force changes or overhauls of the plan.
But you do need to have a plan.
@Susan
I agree with you and a have a lot of respect for a woman that follows through… but in my experience, when the rubber meets the road most women won’t follow through with your advice.
Do you think you would have been unable to recognize he was the one at 21, since you didn’t have as much dating experience?
“Never marry unless you and your partner are head over heels in love. If you have to wonder, you’re not.”
Yes.
The answer needs to be “I am head over heels in love.”
Not “I think I love him.”
Not “I can learn to love him.”
Not “I could love him.”
Not “I want to love him.”
Not “I should be in love with him because on paper he fits so well, so I guess I am.”
Not “I can live with it.”
Not “He’ll have to do.”
SW: “End a relationship at the first sign of anger management issues.”
Ramble: “Susan, in an era where more and more girls do not have any brothers, that piece of advice will become more problematic.
I have known a few girls who were blown away when they saw a man get genuinely angry.”
Yes. Getting angry is entirely different from having anger management issues.
@Ramble
The lessons I learned were a direct result of my personal experience. I saw the disconnect from mom manifest in ways that were troubling. Everyone’s different, and it sounds like your own father didn’t bring that baggage to his marriage.
It’s really the same as the risk factors for divorce – these are risks or potential red flags, but individual results will vary.
This is no news to the manosphere, but one major challenge for women is that many of the most attractive men tend to be the ones who are the most likely to cheat, least likely to commit easily, and least likely to be stable husbands. If she wants stability, she may have to trade-off some attraction in order to achieve that. Of course she has to be attracted, but intense, passionate attraction with someone who has high character and eyes only for her, may be quite hard to find.
Not at all! I don’t think I would have had children had I not married, but for women who want them AI or adoption are certainly options. The latter approach is admirable, and some of my b-school classmates who never married adopted orphaned children.
“This is no news to the manosphere, but one major challenge for women is that many of the most attractive men tend to be the ones who are the most likely to cheat, least likely to commit easily, and least likely to be stable husbands. If she wants stability, she may have to trade-off some attraction in order to achieve that. Of course she has to be attracted, but intense, passionate attraction with someone who has high character and eyes only for her, may be quite hard to find.”
I agree and will add that the same goes for women. The most attractive people of both genders cheat the most and likely divorce the most. The curse of options.
I’ll add my 2 cents about the difference 5 years made in my 20s. Maybe if my husband had met me when I was 20, he might have fallen for me then, but I was an immature little twit and would have been a bad bet for the long-term, at least back then. I just wasn’t fully grown yet. I’m glad my husband got to know the 25-year-old version of me instead of the 20-year-old version.
Myself at 20:
- I cooked ramen noodles.
- I didn’t care to clean or do housework.
- I didn’t have a full-time job and worked part time at the university.
- I had a bunch of credit card debt and student loans.
- I didn’t exercise regularly, didn’t have good habits, and was constantly stressed.
- I was self-entitled and bratty, had depression/anger issues, didn’t take responsibility for my own actions, and was scared of everything (I didn’t even want to learn to drive).
Myself at 25:
- I cooked a variety of healthy meals from scratch, with meat, vegetables and seasoning.
- I cleaned, organized, did housework, laundry, and took care of miscellaneous tasks.
- I had a full-time, salaried job, 401k, retirement account, health benefits, and 3 years of good job experience.
- I paid off all my student loans and had a healthy amount in savings, with credit card balance paid off each month, and paid all other bills on time.
- I exercised regularly, took multivitamins/omega3 supplements daily, and was more in control of healthy habits.
- I was more mature and took responsibility for my own actions, was more emotionally stable, and took on self-improvement (I learned to ride a bike, drive and swim).
As far as sexual market value goes, I wasn’t as young or nubile at 25 as I was at 20. But I had more value for a relationship at 25. I was in the same relationship from college until 25, and I grew a lot during the course of that relationship. At the end, I realized the guy I was with (who was 7 years older) stayed the same maturity throughout, which was okay when I was 19 and just as immature, but no longer cutting it when I wanted a good father to future children.
My husband could probably come up with his own list of differences between 20-year-old him and 25-year-old him, but I met him when he was 25, and I wasn’t there to see his immature phase. So we have a deep mutual respect for each other as adults, and maybe that helps with the idealized image/rose-colored glasses.
@Jimmy
I think I would not have found him attractive at 21. He was a geeky engineering student with a batshit crazy girlfriend who pretended she was living in the 19th century. (She worked at Sturbridge Village and liked to remain in character.) Four years later, he had come into his own, matured in his looks (including going from 150 to 175 – at 6’3″), had some career traction and was starting a great MBA program. By then he had preselection going for him as well. Timing is important.
However, I also think it’s true that at 21 I would not have appreciated his qualities. I was just out of college, having fun going out with my friends, just out of a long-term college relationship. He was pretty bookish and serious, much more intellectual and artsy than I was. He would have intimidated me (hell, he did that four years later) – I would never have seen us as compatible when I was 21.
Alias: “The parents ease of giving out son-in-law fringe benefits is what struck me the oddest since works against their daughter’s best interest. ”
Say what?? You sound so mercenary.
Both my parents and wife’s parents accepted us into our families long before we were engaged. There were no “fringe benefits” other than spending time with people you like. If her family refused to contact me because we weren’t married, I’d really think twice about marrying into a family that was so hostile.
@Deti, @Ramble
Agreed. I’m talking about a propensity to throw things, get into fights, or even strike a woman. No one ever hit me, but I have seen guys flip out over little things and become so enraged it was frightening. One guy was so mad at me for going on a road trip with girlfriends he broke into my apartment.
A man needs to exhibit self-control, and most people can do that even when they are angry. Any loss of control is very frightening to women.
Susan, definitely cosign #35. The ex of 8 years was like that. He would break things, yell and scream, and generally become unhinged. He alienated a whole group of work friends because he threatened to beat up one of the guys (a coworker’s brother).
Sadly it took me much longer to stop tolerating that sort of behavior, because my mother also had anger issues and habitually yelled at me. I imagine you didn’t have that same sort of conditioning that led you to think that was “normal.”
@Julie
Which is why it is critically important that a woman not waste any time at all dating dead end guys. The opportunity cost is huge. Even getting over a heartbreak is enormously consuming of a woman’s time and energy, and she’s not going to be in a good place to nurture a new relationship. If a woman avoids the men most likely to disappoint her, she stands a good chance of meeting a life partner. Obviously, that’s not going to work if she needs an asshole vibe to get her juices flowing.
@Hope
My mother yelled and screamed constantly, but she was bi-polar (untreated) and I knew it was not normal, and that other people’s mothers did not behave that way. Once when I was in first grade she was screaming about not having a needle and thread to sew on a button when the doorbell rang. It was a neighbor with her sewing box. I can still remember the shame I felt.
Many years later, I complained to the Principal of my son’s school that one of the teachers frequently yelled at the kids, and I had felt alarmed when I helped out in the classroom one time. He asked me if I had a general problem with yelling. I said, “Yes I do.” He just shrugged and I wondered which one of us was crazy.
“I was self-entitled and bratty, had depression/anger issues, didn’t take responsibility for my own actions,”
Almost hard to believe coming from you. Goes to show how much people can change.
I agree, Susan, it’s best to avoid dating dead end guys. However, I think most women would do that if they KNEW the guy was a dead end guy. Too many women learn about who to avoid based on making mistakes and finding out firsthand why some types of men are not good. When I was 18, 19, 20, I wasn’t thinking, “I’ll just date him because he’s attractive, but I know it won’t go anywhere.” No, I thought I would marry every single man I dated. My discernment did grow better every year, but I don’t think I had really great discernment until my mid-twenties. At that point, I noticed that the men I was truly attracted to were truly good and mature men. The problem at that point was that these men were on the radar of so many women, they didn’t seem in a hurry to commit, and I believe several of them are still single in their 40s now.
a batshit crazy girlfriend who pretended she was living in the 19th century. (She worked at Sturbridge Village and liked to remain in character.)
Really, this is just too good/funny to be true; it sounds like a spot of comic relief in a B movie. Whom can we imagine casting for this part?…
I’m talking about a propensity to throw things, get into fights, or even strike a woman.
Right, *you* have a realistic understanding of what “Anger Management Issues” really is. Many do not.
I thought I would marry every single man I dated.
For me, this rings true. There just aren’t that many girls who think, when they meet Justin, “Oh, I am just having fun. After a few more weeks and I will settle down with someone more serious.”
@Susan
“1. Marry man you are mutually in love with.
2. Remain single.
3. Arranged marriage.
4. Marry good man with no tingles.
5. Marry player with tingles.
6. Marry serial killer.”
While I have never tried it, as I get older I think arranged marriages may have gotten a bad reputation …
I could be wrong but I suspect that most arranged marriages were/are probably a pretty fair SMV match up, where those involved probably did the best they could to objectively find a good personality match. I’m sure it probably went horribly wrong where the people making the decisions made them for selfish reasons; but, since they were typically the parents of the people getting married, I doubt this was the norm because they had a vested interest in both partners being happy (to have grandchildren).
”they worked with. Upon meeting their perfect guy, I was surprised (and pleased) to see that the woman had finally fallen for someone of similar attractiveness. The smart women will do this, and the holdouts will remain single. While attraction is not a choice per se, I believe women should give themselves every opportunity to fall for people over time by ruling guys in rather than ruling them out.”
It was just probably due to lack of options. One of my uncles dated a girl who was below his looks, but he really fancied her and strange as it seemed, no guy with a similar level of attractiveness was interested in her(could it be that, thirty years ago men were already wising up lol).
She was head over heels, but as soon as an Alpha male showed interest in her, my uncle was dumped and the young woman told him she was only interested in him because there was no one else interested in her – until then.
Wait. That doesn’t make sense. I just exemplified the young woman’s hypergamy by choosing my uncle over being single, and then boosting her hypergamy when she chose a guy who was better than my uncle, LOL.
I’d say that it’s impossible for a woman to genuinely fall for a man in her league. This young woman had no one interested in her. She’d pick the below average male and fallen deeply in love with her because that’s what female biology is all about; secure a position on a man’s heart and then jump to a better prospect, but making sure that the initial branch is still there in case the bigger, better deal dumps.
She’ll use him as a placeholder for the future Alpha male, and she’ll milk the dude’s attention and resources while she continues to wear revealing dresses and upgrading her body to draw the attention of Johnny B. Goode, LOL.
”For me, this rings true. There just aren’t that many girls who think, when they meet Justin, “Oh, I am just having fun. After a few more weeks and I will settle down with someone more serious.””
Some of them are funny as hell. Had one girl I met 2 years ago who had been dating the same dude for 2 years. They met when she was 16 and he was 22 and working for a living. She was hot as hell, and the Brad Pitts of her High School wanted to hit it, but she went for the average looking, older dude, who had a car and received the minimum wage at the end of the month.
Well, 2 years into the relationship she meets a friend of mine – the typical bad boy who happened to look like the Goalkeeper of Real Madrid.
She bangs him that same night, goes back to the boyfriend, but continues to send me text messages asking for the dude who called her a skank after sleeping with him, lol. The girl’s boyfriend eventually finds out his girl had cheated on him, dumps her, she’s sad for a week, gets loads and loads of beta male support @ facebook, goes to an international event for students, stumbles upon a campus filled with hot guys, spends 3 months in that Country satisfying her Alpha male cravings and returns to the Country to become the fiancee of a Med student.
She’s an artist, ya know. Paints stuff, daddy pays for her college and even offered her an audi when she graduated from college.
What’s funny is that she knows I am familiar with all she’s been up to but she persists in painting(ahah) this image of her, as an immaculate virgin Mary, LOL.
Do all women think beta males are stupid as rocks? LOL
Susan, sorry to heart about the issues with your mother. My mother was not bipolar, but probably clinically narcissistic. She presented the most quiet and collected face in public, and only yelled at me in private. It wasn’t usually uncontrolled yelling either, more often calculated jabs and insults. It was hard for me (a kid’s words against hers) when most other people, including friends of the family, thought she was just fine, and I was the one being rebellious and difficult.
It’s not so much the yelling itself that unsettles me, but the overwhelming amount of negativity and nastiness. I had an aunt who perfected the cold, icy stare, and could give off this aura of mean, deadly silence. My mother did that plus the verbal jabs. Very difficult to mount any kind of emotional defense against that as a kid.
@Julie
You’re obviously not alone since Stevenson said that people do change their “checklists” as they mature.
That’s interesting. I do hear some men say here at HUS that they don’t see any real benefits to marrying, and I believe that number is growing. Most men will marry eventually, but this suggests that women should seek an orientation to commitment in the men they date. That’s obviously awkward to inquire about in the early days, but one can waste a lot of time and fall for someone, only to find out they don’t want marriage and/or kids.
@Esau
I know, it really is hilarious, she was like a character from an Anne Tyler novel. As a woman in an engineering college, she had it made, and my husband was lucky to land her (or so he thought for a while). Later she shaved her head in solidarity with some cause or other.
“Later she shaved her head in solidarity with some cause or other.”
Now that sounds like Berkeley.
@Peppermint
I too think arranged marriages seem to have worked quite well for most of history. I don’t know if it’s a case of low expectations or people growing attracted to one another over time. And I think that the women do often have the right to say no – admittedly this is based entirely on the novel “A Suitable Boy.” In any case, the odds of success are better than a marriage where you already know there is no sexual attraction.
I don’t know whether Michael is Plain Jane or just a garden variety troll. He missed the Heartiste stop and disembarked at Hooking.
” Most men will marry eventually, ”
Doubt it. Women don’t marry their inferiors and they’ll already snub their noses at marrying men at their own level. How many articles are there by women in college complaining about the lack of marriage prospects? How many guys are picking a relaxed lifestyle and work path instead of doing what our fathers did?
Women will not lack for sex partners, but co-habitation and marriage partners? Nah, don’t think so. Women are already suffering the consequences of advocating Feminism; PUA’s, Alpha males who pump and dump, and the persistence by beta males in staying faithful to the way their lives are.
I don’t see the majority of men my age and younger paying much heed to women’s desire for marriage. True, women in their early 20′s are still miles and miles away from wanting marriage, but guys have eyes to see and ears to hear how the frat boys are getting laid, they aren’t, and they aren’t interested in paying fortunes for sex with women past their prime(and carrying children from the Alpha males/PUA’s and stds).
Maybe we’ll see men in their 30′s settling down with the hottest of women in their 20′s. Shame that only a handful of women are truly a 10.
Well, I believe it works out for everyone. Men free themselves from being providers(slaves) and women don’t have to deal with men they have no sexual interest in.
@Hope
Having a mother with NPD has got to be really tough. One of my daughter’s friends growing up was in this boat and I watched as she became progressively more unhappy and messed up. That woman has zero compassion. I congratulate you on making such a great marriage! How are you feeling, by the way?
”I don’t know whether Michael is Plain Jane or just a garden variety troll. He missed the Heartiste stop and disembarked at Hooking.”
Who’s Jane? And I’m sorry for transmitting what I’ve seen and what I’ve learned from the wisdom of older men.. Maybe I should listen, instead, to my mother, and find myself a single mother – hey, if it has a vagina it’s already on my level!
LOL.
Nah, I’m just a young man looking into getting laid. Past the age of 25 most women aren’t really going to put out for free, so I have a very small window(women aged 18-25). Better to collect all of the information I can and play my cards from there. I’m not really interested in paying a lifetime (marriage until the woman grows tired of me)for a few sex sessions. Can you blame me? LOL
@Michael
While I think there is an element of prospecting in all women (and men) I don’t think most women will typically react like the woman your uncle was involve with.
Essentiall, no one does the math but people will generally “jump ship” when the following condition is met:
SMV current partner < (SMV potential partner * probability of LTR)
For the most part, pairing up with a relatively equal match is generally pretty safe because it is unlikely that a man of substantially higher SMV will appear and make her feel secure in a potential relationship; especially if she isn't cheating already.
With cheating … Once again, while no one does the math, most people will probably cheat when the following condition is met
SMV current partner < (SMV potential partner * probability their current partner will forgive them)
This is why it is so dangerous to ever accept someone else's cheating, or to ever date anyone with a history of cheating.
@Michael
I don’t blame you, but I don’t think you’re going to find the information you are looking for at HUS. I’m really not into promoting the casual route for either guys or girls. YareallyPUA left a bunch of links to PUA sites a week or two ago. You might find that approach a better use of your time.
”ut I don’t think you’re going to find the information you are looking for at HUS”
I’m finding all the information I need. This forum has helped me on the selection of my targets, it’s teaching me how women think. I’m still shaking off the betahood my mother instilled in me by reading and learning from the men on this forum and on forums dedicated to the MGTOW lifestyle. Roissy is hardcore stuff, I’ll dedicate myself to his teachings after I’m done with Pook, the sosuave community(which are mostly keyboard jocks, lol) before I move on.
I just want to bang a few hotties and concentrate fully on making as much money as possible to kick back and spend my days playing video games, lol.
PeppermintPanda,
Thanks for the explanation. So it’s essentially a case of women hoping from Alpha male to Alpha male while the risk of repercussions is low, and preferring a man of equal SMV or lower SMV for commitment and marriage/co-habitation.
Susan, I’m feeling great, minus hot and bloated all the time. It’s going to be three more long summer months.
Thanks for asking!
About the good relationship with mother thing, I think there is definitely something to this. Especially if the mother wants grandchildren, she would be putting at least subtle pressure on her son to look for a good girl. I wonder what the guys who vocally state they never want to have children think about their mothers.
@Michael
I just realized I screwed up the second equation, it should have been:
(SMV current partner * probability of being caught) < (SMV potential partner * probability their current partner will forgive them)
Of course there is more to this, after all there are moral and empathetic reasons why people do not cheat or jump ship on individuals, but those are likely going to prevent people from evaluating this; not making these equations invalid.
"So it’s essentially a case of women hoping from Alpha male to Alpha male while the risk of repercussions is low, and preferring a man of equal SMV or lower SMV for commitment and marriage/co-habitation."
I would actually argue that women (and men) who cheat in a healthy relationship have a more experience at judging the cheating equation, and people who abandon a healthy relationship have a poor ability to judge the "jumping ship" equation.
Most people who haven't cheated would probaby estimate the probability they would be caught cheating at 90% and the probability their partner would stay with them at 10% while experienced cheaters have probably seen the probability at getting caught at closer to 10% while the probability their parter will stay being closer to 90%. From experience a cheater knows their partners have been pretty oblivious to their actions and have been willing to work it out, so there is limited risk to cheating; and if they've been caught (especially multiple times) and you've taken them back they will internalize that you will never leave them.
In contrast, the higher the SMV is of a potential partner the less likely it is that you will be able to enter into a relationship with them because there is greater competition; and odds are pretty good that they have a primary interest and multiple alternative interests, and you are not the primary interest. While it is realistic to expect a 10% probability that you will be able to enter into a relationship with that higher SMV potential partner, the woman who leaves their current relationship to be with them probably estimates it at closer to 90%; and the net result is most of them end up single in the not too distant future.
Essentially, why most women do not behave that way is because they evaluate the situation very differently.
Of course this all changes in an unhealthy relationship …
@Hope
I had a child in August, and that was a hot summer. Getting into water on hot days was very helpful. There was a town lake and I would go there with my toddler son and sit in the water up to my neck while watching him on the shore. Even a tepid or room temperature bath can help a lot. I feel for you right now!
@47: Later she shaved her head in solidarity with some cause or other.
Now I know you’re just practicing for your screenwriting career.
Michael
I know you already make up your mind so even if a good woman tells you differently you won’t believe but as “Internet Bride” I can tell you that I never think on the green card when I’m blowing up my husband’s dick, I’m mostly thinking “Mmmm yummy”
Personally, I would MUCH rather stay single than marry someone I was not in love with. I don’t see the upside in that. I’d rather go it alone, maybe the turkey baster route.
I purposely waited till I was 100% sure that I could be alone rather than marry the wrong guy before I started my serious search for a husband. No one ever made a good choice out of desperation. That is why is important for women to use their peak years to find a husband and not wait till they are on “OMG! I’m not married” or “everybody is married but me!” that mental state can lead to a lot of heartbreak.
I’d sum it up this way: Regardless of whether you’re going the single route or the looking for a husband route, HAVE A PLAN.
Cosign this. The plan can change but it has to exist, no plan = no results, YMMV.
And I think that the women do often have the right to say no – admittedly this is based entirely on the novel “A Suitable Boy.”
In my experience with my muslim friends they told me that they have both the right to say no and other mechanisms, the personal present the groom has to made to the bride aside from bride price can be rejected by her as a way to show that she doesn’t want the marriage, it can also happen that she can do a lot of “unlady like things” in front her suitor that could make him break up. It could be something like not remembering some Koran passages, being loud or obnoxious having bad manners and so on, also if she is too young and shows immaturity most groom and their family will desist for similar reasons, that is what I can remember anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
@Susan
“But the differences in divorce rates of people who marry in their early 20s versus people who marry in their early 30s is quite large. ”
What I wonder about is the causal link, here. Does being 30 make you less likely to divorce (having made a more informed decision)? Or are you less likely to divorce because you are 30 (reluctant to re-enter the dating game)?
My wife did marry me when she was head over heels in love with me.
That love can die. I don’t think love is the critical factor. I think many people don’t know what real love is and confuse it with attraction.
You don’t know how many folks i know who at one time or another said they were head over heels. Those chemicals eventually stop and then you’re left with real life. If your game isn’t tight… like mine wasn’t.. you’re wife will run for greener pastures.
I think more than anything, mutual respect and ability to compromise are better indicators of a successful lasting pairing vs. ‘feeling in love’.
Susan # 11
I don’t have the figures but i did read somewhere that a good chunk of the 1/3rd initiated by men were in actuality ‘forced’ because the wife wanted out of the marriage but didn’t want to be the initial filer, so they made their husbands lives miserable and drove them to breaking point where they decide that filing is less stressful than trying to repair the unrepairable. Unfortunately i can’t dig up the link so it’s pretty much hearsay but anecdotally.. i’m proof of it. I initiated the divorce.
But that was after 3 weeks of silent treatment, denial of sex, a month of marriage counseling, having her run off with her friends to parties, working late at night, hanging out with my neighbor till midnight and finally getting the ‘i love you but am not in love with you’ shpeal.
And yet if i didn’t force it, she would have continued that arrangement unabated. I didn’t have kids so i didn’t care.
But i would RATHER deal with the divorce i initiated instead of continuing to live in a loveless, stressful and cruel situation.
Peace, peace. For all the many factors involved, Susan’s last article only put the decrease in divorce risk at 24% for women married in under the age of 18, before high school graduation, versus all women married over the age of 25. High school to grad school, 24% decrease.
Proof that we read statistics subjectively. It reminds me of the story I read where a child collapsed after eating nothing but McNuggets for six years. People took the opportunity to bash junk food, I marveled at the wonderfood that could keep you alive for six years…
I’d argue that, as a culture, we’re raised education-focused, and become friend-centered, which is a different civilization from marriage-focused and family-centered. I’ve dated marriage-focused women; the relationships seem, unsurprisingly, better suited to marriage; Alpha/Badboy paranoia seems foreign.
Do what you want. Delay responsibility. Figure it out as you go. Pursue career, achievement. If you strip the cultivated layer off of a woman, you’re left with bare impulse, which lends itself to disorganized, and maybe reorganized mating.
It’s sad to say but Michael’s kind of on the mark
The only thing i can add is that maybe my bias is skewed because i’ve come to realize i seem to be very poor at picking women of good character and instead go after ones that mimic good traits only when it suits them and then go into full narcissist bitch mode.
The correlation? They all appear to be hot and they all appear to have daddy issues and they all appear to have LJBF’d me at one point or another.
But on a happier note, i have as of 2 days ago completely destroyed the last LJBFzone i was dealing with (hence my need to start blogging) and am free from all toxic women who expect relationship benefits without giving back the sexual intimacy i sought. I slayed an Emotional Vampire with my +7 heavy cross. (probably my next post lol)
So Michael, while i know it probably doesn’t sound true, im sure there are a lot of decent women out there. It starts with not going after the ones that hog up the limelight, they’re usually drama and nothing but trouble. If you only want pump n dumps, they’re perfect fodder. If you want something more to soothe your soul…
leave the city and look to the country. They usually don’t have that big city me me me attitude. I find hypergamy is a lot less rampant where women grow up knowing the value of hard work.
“I don’t know whether Michael is Plain Jane or just a garden variety troll. He missed the Heartiste stop and disembarked at Hooking.”
Indeed, Susan,and a troll with intent to sabotage? LOL!
He has a plethora of anecdotes, and prolific comments none of which cast women in a favourable light and he is anti marriage. LOL.
He seems to know sooo much about women, too! LOL.
Then says he is learning how women think, here. LOL.
Hmmmmm.
“I just want to bang a few hotties and concentrate fully on making as much money as possible to kick back and spend my days playing video games, lol.” so sayeth the troll. LOL.
Banging sluts ain’t rocket science. LOL. It’s pretty obvious what they want and how they think. LOL.
He won’t learn anything from HUS on how to do that, anyway. LOL.
Besides his ending many of his sentences, with LOL, is just plain annoying. And for that, he gets an extra couple of points taken off him.
”Banging sluts ain’t rocket science. LOL. It’s pretty obvious what they want and how they think. LOL”
Just because a woman is hot, doesn’t mean she’s a slut. I’ve actually met a handful of hotties who were quite dedicated to their boyfriends. Of course one of the hotties had a boyfriend in jail for manslaughter, and another had a rich bf, so it kinda comes easy for her to be dedicated to the boyfriend.
Bottom line, I believe attractive women are far more sexual selective than the average and below average woman, and if it was that easy to bang ”sluts”, Pua’s wouldn’t exist and Method and Neil Strauss would have nothing to grow rich, from.
”Besides his ending many of his sentences, with LOL, is just plain annoying.”
Think of it as an expression of happiness. When I put lol at the end of my sentences, I’m thanking the god for not being the boyfriend or the guy who is going to marry the women in my examples.
”Then says he is learning how women think, here. LOL.”
You don’t quite exactly learn how women think by heading over to Roissy and having his readership brag ’bout how they banged 10000′s women who rated 10 just by flexing their biceps.
”He won’t learn anything from HUS on how to do that, anyway. LOL.”
That’s what you think. Susan’s article of ” 10 reasons why you should date a beta male” gave great insight to my question of why young women were electing to take me as a potential husband rather than a FWB, after the women in question had intended to have casual sex with me.
The women were 5′s and 6′s, but I think I can upgrade my way up to 7′s by changing the beta behaviors I was putting on display. Had it not been for Susan, I would come out as a try hard, for using Roissy’s techniques. It’s always preferable to change my personality from beta to Alpha before I begin my apprenticeship with Roissy and the likes, being roissy the one dude who dedicated 30 years of his life to gaming. Can’t properly start at his level, you know?
Besides, if I learn how marriage-minded women are, I’ll be able to quickly discern marriage-minded women from those who are looking for fun. It might seem easy, but the women who were really party girls acted like good girls when they met me and my buddies, only after hanging out with them for a couple of weeks did the inner party girl in them come out.
Nice try Mike, but no cigar.
You NOW say,
“Besides, if I learn how marriage-minded women are, I’ll be able to quickly discern marriage-minded women from those who are looking for fun”
Bit of a turn around..
By your own admission you said previously that you were only about
banging a few hotties, video games and making money..
You are stealthily undermining Susan’s mission statement, which is to get men and women together.. She is pro marriage . Pro LTR.
Susan however, is a gracious host, and because you are a rather polite (if somewhat annoying troll) guy she allows your comments.
Kudos to her, she is a tolerant and good natured kinda gal.Her motives completely transparent.
Much (unfairly) maligned in certain spheres.
It is a damn shame that many MRA sites do not take a leaf out of her book.
Have you noticed the tone of this blog?
People interact well and treat each other with respect. Sure there is disagreement.. But there is no hate. No nastiness..
Susan sets the tone, here.
Civility costs nothing.
I’d rather go it alone, maybe the turkey baster route.”
Oy. Please tell me this is a joke.
SW: “Not at all! I don’t think I would have had children had I not married, but for women who want them AI or adoption are certainly options. The latter approach is admirable, and some of my b-school classmates who never married adopted orphaned children.”
You’re advocating single motherhood for unmarried women who really want children? That’s the worst advice I’ve ever seen you give. It’s indulging selfishness. Might be satisfying for the woman, but it robs the child of a father. Yes, one parent is better than none, but why voluntarily put a child in that position? And the single mom will go nuts working and caring for the child(ren).
If she couldn’t find a suitable man before her child, she’ll never find one once she becomes a mom. Single motherhood damages SMV and positively ruins MMV. Here’s what a man thinks when he sees that: “She has a job/career AND kids? Where will she have time for dating, sex, a husband, a married life?”
You’re off base to advise any woman to go that route voluntarily. Don’t do it.
“if it was that easy to bang ”sluts”, Pua’s wouldn’t exist”
Suspiciously though, you don’t need to be a WUA to get one to marry you
“Besides, if I learn how marriage-minded women are, I’ll be able to quickly discern marriage-minded women from those who are looking for fun”
Yes… so that I don’t waste time with them? Kinda like looking at the road and seeing which car is speeding up so that I can quickly and safely cross the street?
I want to learn how to shut down those beta inhibitors mothers create to make it impossible for young men to be Alpha males, jump around having sex, and instead taking monogamy serious. Nothing wrong with that. I figure, for thousands and thousands of years young men have sacrificed their freedom and in many cases their lives for the cause of society. Why should a 20 year old kid die among rotten corpses, why should a young man grow indebted to society?
Why have women enjoyed massive privileged lives and I am suddenly an evil being for wanting to have fun and helping out the young men who’re stuck in the crossroad of life? You know what’s sadder than a man who is broken down by marriage? A young man who has the potential to be a casanova, but thanks to his mother he’s going the LTR route; I have some friends who fit this description and it breaks my heart to see them waste their looks on ”relationship” women.
”You are stealthily undermining Susan’s mission statement, which is to get men and women together.. She is pro marriage . Pro LTR.”
But men and women come together all the time. 7 billion human beings on planet earth. Susan also knows that it goes against men’s nature to mate for a lifetime, which in most relationships is never a reality. How am I undermining her mission, exactly? Because I point out that men don’t earn much from being in a relationship and that somehow is the mark of a ”troll?”
”Have you noticed the tone of this blog?
People interact well and treat each other with respect. Sure there is disagreement.. But there is no hate. No nastiness..”
Yeah, I like it here, too. At roissy’s you’ll be called a beta loser if you disagree with anything they say and if you aren’t boasting about banging 100 Angelina Jolies per night. I’ve learned some good stuff from the more hardcore MGTOW forums but I hardly post in those forums because they start calling me a ”wominz” when I point out that even obviously unattractive dudes get girlfriends without having to pay for it.
”“if it was that easy to bang ”sluts”, Pua’s wouldn’t exist”
Suspiciously though, you don’t need to be a WUA to get one to marry you”
I had one woman with that mindset baffled at my complete refusal in taking her out for dinner after seeing her smoking weed and getting high with the local thugs. Dinner can’t be compared to marriage but to a college student any money is good money and why would I waste it on someone like that.
Many women are also under the belief that the man should be extremely happy for being the dude they are aiming for marriage, and man, it’s kinda odd when the woman has done everything under the sun with 10000 guys but wants you to see her a girlfriend material by not putting out and expecting you to ”treat her right.”
Deti @ 71,
I disagree. While a woman with kids chances with a single man without may drop astromically — her chances with divoced men would be just fine! Most of them have children of their own (such as Ted D), so children are not dealbreakers. There are too many blended families to sell the idea that single mothers are dooming themselves to never remarry or find a boyfriend again!
I’ll conceded that it makes dating harder. But if a woman’s SMV is high she will have no problem finding a mate even with kids (example, Angelina Jolie had no problem snapping up Brad Pitt as a single mom!).
“it’s kinda odd when the woman has done everything under the sun with 10000 guys but wants you to see her a girlfriend material by not putting out and expecting you to ”treat her right.”
A prostitute may also want to enter the marriage market but they know better than to waste their time [and yours] trying because they know how men feel about prostitutes and no one would fault a man for avoiding them. Who gets to decide for men how they should think and feel about their close cousins – promiscuous non-prostitutes? Are women getting some sort of message that men will be there for them when they decide to shift gears or are they just very naive about this near impossible transformation from promiscuous to princess? Has the train of sexual attention from men bent her character into such a delusional state that she can no longer tell the difference between what men want physically and what men want emotionally?
Iggles:
Out of respect for SW I won’t derail this further after this comment.
Angelina Jolie? Seriously? You’re holding up an extreme outlier as an example to follow? This is apex fallacy on steroids.
Reality check: how many women have Angelina Jolie’s explosive 10+ SMV, Helen-of-Troy face and bangin’ body, especially after giving birth? how many women have Angelina Jolie’s money to hire cooks, nannies and publicists? how many women have the pick of men to date and marry? how many women marry men with Brad Pitt’s looks, fame and money? even marrying Brad Pitt, Jolie married down a smidge, and this is a man with an off the charts SMV himself.
Get back to me when your hamster’s amphetamines wear off.
“A prostitute may also want to enter the marriage market but they know better than to waste their time [and yours] trying because they know how men feel about prostitutes and no one would fault a man for avoiding them. Who gets to decide for men how they should think and feel about their close cousins – promiscuous non-prostitutes?”
Prostitutes get pumped-and-paid, so technically they have higher value than girls who get pumped-and-dumped.
”A prostitute may also want to enter the marriage market but they know better than to waste their time [and yours] trying because they know how men feel about prostitutes and no one would fault a man for avoiding them. Who gets to decide for men how they should think and feel about their close cousins – ”
Some of them take their sweet time realizing that. Met a couple of young women who made it their daily task to complain to anyone who’d hear it how no man wants to have a committed relationship with them, they’re only desired for sex.
On the same note, I met another young woman who I was keen on dating because I fancied her, but heck, below average looks in a woman seems to mean nothing at all to her sexual prospects because she had her cellphone filled with text messages from guys(Alpha males) who wanted to bang her, and who probably did.
I was a bit shocked when she kinda used her cell phone as testifying tool for her high value as a sex mate, but she seemed to have forgotten that a relationship is not 100% sex all the time. Though I never had sex with her, as I’m not interested in catching stds and she probably had at least one from sleeping with the Army of Alphas, it was quite funny when she demanded to be introduced to my parents as my girlfriend.
When I twitched my nose to the idea she got massively pissed off and said she wanted a real man, a man to make babies with(22 years old woman), marry and grow old with, began to kick stuff up and saying that she doesn’t want a guy for banging purposes only, adding the clarification of her value to these Alpha males, ” This guy calls me at 2am for sex, but won’t call me when I’m in the supermarket and I need help with my groceries.”
I dunno bro, I don’t think anyone goes to a job interview with a 2month beard, unwashed hair and stinky breath. Blows my mind how these women think they’re ”in” just by having a vagina.
We can’t change how people are but the scary part is how well she camouflaged her nature. When I met her she was a sweet little thing who wanted to bang me, no strings attached, but I made the fatal mistake of showing that I cared for her – watch out! 3 months later I hadn’t slept with her once, nor had I received any sexual intimacy from her, but she had made up her mind that I was going to marry her!
A year or so has passed and she still calls me on the phone, with an unknown number. I never pick it up but it sure creeps me out.
”Prostitutes get pumped-and-paid, so technically they have higher value than girls who get pumped-and-dumped”
Prostitutes are usually better at what they’re doing than most women, I reckon. A couple of Alpha males in my class went to a high-end escort girl down the road from where our college is as a way of bonding, and they told me the woman really worked hard at it to make it a good memory for those 2 guys.
Of course, if I was to meet an attractive young woman who was an artist in bed I would begin to wonder who she trained with and how many guys she did it. Maybe I’d confuse her for a prostitute when she might’ve just been a pump and dump girl.
“Prostitutes get pumped-and-paid, so technically they have higher value than girls who get pumped-and-dumped.”
Nevertheless, except for “sex positive” extremists, no promiscuous woman would take kindly to commitment-minded men comparing her to a prostitute. Until very recently, there were no people on the defensive who found it necessary to convince men that there are different kinds of sex – casual sex, relationship sex, fling sex, expression sex, and on and on. There is one kind of sex – but – there are different types of women. If a woman sells it she is a prostitute. If a woman prolifically experiments with it casually she is promiscuous. If a woman consistently incorporates it in the quest for a committed relationship she is wife material.
” even marrying Brad Pitt, Jolie married down a smidge, and this is a man with an off the charts SMV himself.”
Wasn’t she married to a much older guy when she was very young and so much more hotter than what she is now? Her SMV increased with her bank accounts or the men she had sex with somehow increased her SMV? Or banging the older guy made her SMV go up?
”Nevertheless, except for “sex positive” extremists, no promiscuous woman would take kindly to commitment-minded men comparing her to a prostitute. ”
I completely agree with this. That young woman I was talking about, she became violent(well, how far can a 4’11” 80 pounds woman go) when she thought I was suggesting that she wasn’t a modest woman when I told her that maybe, if she had chosen to get to know the Alpha males over a certain period of time instead of jumping into bed with them, she’d maybe find herself in a relationship instead of being the dude’s backup plan for when he wants to have sex but his equal(7-10) isn’t in the mood.
Bro, she turns to me and asks me if I was calling her a prostitute blablabla. I was just trying to help her out. Would it make any sense to give answers to a History exam if the dude in front of me doing the asking had a math exam waiting for him?
”– casual sex, relationship sex, fling sex, expression sex, and on and on. ”
That argument confuses me. I’ve been told that before in a very casual toner. Hanging out with a girl I had been out on a few dates with, she receives a text message. It said ” I want to bang you behind a building.” She doesn’t bother to tell me anything. I asked her wtf was that about, she tells me to not worry, it was just some guy she hooked up with last week. I was dating her for 2 weeks and I had only kissed her so far.
what the heck?
@Michael
“When I twitched my nose to the idea she got massively pissed off and said she wanted a real man, a man to make babies with(22 years old woman), marry and grow old with, began to kick stuff up and saying that she doesn’t want a guy for banging purposes only, adding the clarification of her value to these Alpha males, ” This guy calls me at 2am for sex, but won’t call me when I’m in the supermarket and I need help with my groceries.””
You are turned off by her *not* wanting an Alpha male? I find that to be confusing. What she did was probably her (awkward) way of telling you that lack of opportunity isn’t why she wants a relationship-oriented man.
How did you know that she was sleeping with these guys?
And doesn’t the type of casual sex lifestyle you seem to be striving for subject you to the same “probably has STDs” judgement you place on the Alphas and the girls they may or may not have slept with?
“When I met her she was a sweet little thing who wanted to bang me, no strings attached, but I made the fatal mistake of showing that I cared for her – watch out! 3 months later I hadn’t slept with her once”
Script Flippers are rampant and they walk in almost every circle – college grads, executives, your neighbors. They are the number one to-be-avoided-like-the-plague females thus very few woman today are wife material.
” it was just some guy she hooked up with last week”
These women see sex as an extension of kissing with no unique importance placed on it. This is what happens in some cultures when female sexual constraints, both physically and mentally, are expunged. Its no big deal to them and they have not been told or educated about how men who have feelings feel so they consistently wrongly assume that its no big deal for you too. And if they did know or discover male nature they probably would not change their demeanor because the slut advocates [feminists] and their cohort of female friends tell them not to because men should just accept this female behavior. Thus very few women today are wife material.
”You are turned off by her *not* wanting an Alpha male? I find that to be confusing. What she did was probably her (awkward) way of telling you that lack of opportunity isn’t why she wants a relationship-oriented man.”
I was turned off by the change in behaviors. From good nature to indifferent, to interested in me, to angry because I wasn’t interested in dating her. I wasn’t even interested in getting oral sex from her after learning of her adventures. A guy I later befriended spent some time with her but she must’ve done exactly the same because the dude didn’t want to have sex with her, consented to a HJ and that was that.
Quite telling when a bad boy doesn’t want to have sex.
”How did you know that she was sleeping with these guys?”
She told me about her adventures. Very happily. Told me she had done this and this position with this dude, with no effort on the guy’s part in getting to know her. One time she told me she had been sick with the flu, one of her brother’s friends went to visit her and they had sex right there.
Of course, this happened when she saw me as a Bad boy( I had shaved hair, a lot of stubble, and a couple of temporary tattoos similar to what the Japanese Mafia has).
Somehow she projected the method many women use to evaluate a man’s worth, how many women he had sex with, onto me, and honestly believed I’d be more attracted to her if I was to think she had a long list of sexual partners.
Her thought patterns quickly changed when she came to the conclusion, I had the beta traits she was looking in a potential husband, and all of the ”come, lets go out to get drink and come back to my place” messages pretty much dried out and she began to worry about my lack of interest in having summer jobs. Probably to pay her way or something.
”And doesn’t the type of casual sex lifestyle you seem to be striving for subject you to the same “probably has STDs” judgement you place on the Alphas and the girls they may or may not have slept with?”
I wasn’t looking at my Alpha friends with admiration for their lifestyle. I wanted to have a relationship with this girl because I was developing feelings for her and she seemed to be different from most women I had met so far. See, she was only 4’11” and skinny, with a pretty face, almost a twin sister of Natalie Portman, but she could never compete with the vast majority of the women around us.
I didn’t try to be her boyfriend because of I was intimidated by the other women. I wasn’t trying to get in her pants, thinking she was an easy lay. I genuinely wanted to spend time with her, non-sexually. Of course I worried about stds and that’s part of my interest in the girl. I reasoned the Alpha males and bad boys would never sleep with her because they had such a vast selection of hot women.
I think I don’t really put much stock in what the radical MGTOW say where it concerns the std’s in hot women because I think average and below average women are far more likely to be promiscuous than the hot women every man lusts after.
Look at PUA’s. They only learn game for the hot chicks and they have to do a load of tricks just to get phones. I really doubt all that many PUA’s are sleeping with attractive women, and I’ve seen Alpha males hound obese women for sex, which means they can’t be bothered to game the hot chicks.
Woman tells Man: “You are really hot and I’m interested in using you for sex.”
= *Highest compliment man can be given, friends praise his ability, high-fives and fist-bumps all around.*
Man tells Woman: “You are really hot and I’m interested in using you for sex.”
=*Woman feels degraded, friends tells her that she is in a self-destructive relationship with a sociopath and should escape.*
What’s up with the first comment, BTW? I’m still trying to understand it.
I suppose the first poster doesn’t like to be in equal terms with men i.e, having a hard time finding a man who can satisfy her inherent hypergamy as women are now expected by the feminists to be strong and independent and all that.
“I suppose the first poster doesn’t like to be in equal terms with men i.e, having a hard time finding a man who can satisfy her inherent hypergamy as women are now expected by the feminists to be strong and independent and all that.”
Well, women are now engaged in a civil war with one another over, you guessed it – how to be treated by men
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/1-percent-wives-are-helping-to-kill-feminism-and-make-the-war-on-women-possible/258431/
“Woman tells Man: “You are really hot and I’m interested in using you for sex.”
= *Highest compliment man can be given, friends praise his ability, high-fives and fist-bumps all around.*”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNHTROcoSs
”Well, women are now engaged in a civil war with one another over, you guessed it – how to be treated by men”
Yeah, I knew something was up when I visited a major relationship forum and there was a thread counting 40 pages and increasing by the hour, the thread was created by a dude asking why women still expect the men to pay for the dates. I swear, a whole bunch of women typed down lengthy posts with why men must pay.
Half of the women there were angry at the guys who don’t want to pay with the odd woman who’d come into the thread and say she wasn’t expecting men to pay for her, and she was shamed and treated like shiat by the vast majority of the women who were gold-diggers.
What really made my eyes go wide was the cold, analytic opinion of one of the gold diggers, insulting the woman who payed for her expenses by saying that she was lowering the value and the price of vagina and that she’s the reason men aren’t committing to women that much anymore.
The irony in her post was huge, for one hour later she was asking men why the men who ask her out on a date don’t ask her out again after she tells the dudes she has an appointment with her FWB and can’t make it.
Free meals and gifts, put out for some other guy. Right.
” a whole bunch of women typed down lengthy posts with why men must pay.”
In the marriage market, women need to feel special. They already spent years not seeking or getting any reverence for use of their bodies, squeezing out of them every last bit of multi cock inducing pleasure. A few generations ago a woman was special as a matter of course and men knew that and paid or courted because it was worth the investment. This is not about money. Its about symbolism and a desperation to start fresh. Depending on the woman, the cruel hoax that men are available to play along is either self-inflicted or being sold through the media and feminist messages.
@Michael
“She told me about her adventures. Very happily. Told me she had done this and this position with this dude, with no effort on the guy’s part in getting to know her. One time she told me she had been sick with the flu, one of her brother’s friends went to visit her and they had sex right there.”
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your decision to not get involved with her. What was she trying to prove by laying all of that on the table so early in the process? Maybe she figured “I’d better tell him myself before he hears it from someone else.”
” What was she trying to prove by laying all of that on the table so early in the process?”
She was trying to prove that she had the looks to attract the interest of Alpha males, much like men boost about getting a 10 woman to go out with them. Because the guys are paying for the date and the 10 woman goes along, not because she’s interested, but because it’s a free meal.
The Alpha males who slept with her did it because women 7-10 weren’t around at the time or he would have to Game them and he wasn’t to be bothered with the effort, but in her mind, by sleeping with an Alpha male, her SMV was increased to 10 and she was trying to make me put her in the ”marriage category” file in my mind because she ”was” so beautiful.
Little did she know that looks is not really what can possible make think of a woman as marriage material. There’s an absolute 10 I have to see everyday(college) and while it is true, I’d bang the living lights out of her, she’s far too much high maintenance to have in a relationship/marriage.
On the other hand, right across my street lives a girl who makes my heart fluster. She’s cute and thin, but her hair is oily, thin, she doesn’t have that much of a body, her parents are both heavily obese, she’ll probably be obese. She’s already showing huge hips, but she’s so sweet, spends most of her time helping out the elderly and is part of the church furniture.
Shes’ never had a boyfriend, constantly watched by her brother and father. Her dad noticed the mutual attraction and she’s probably been told to stay away from me, he knows what I’m thinking of when I look at his daughter.
This girl doesn’t know squat about sexuality, is more of a farm girl, spends every summer with her grandparents taking care of the farm and growing stuff. But I’d rate her as marriage material much faster than I’d rate, most of the women I see on a daily basis.
” “I’d better tell him myself before he hears it from someone else.”’
She was foreign to my social group. I met her in a supermarket. She was trying to reach the top shelve and with her 4’11” she was barely off the floor, lol. I picked what she was trying to reach and I went away, but it happened that she was waiting for the same bus and we talked from there.
Re: the paying for dinner war…
Too many women do feel entitled to being fed. I think that many others are defensive and ill-informed, and are hanging on to that single act, the man paying for dinner, as the only reliable sign of a potential mate. Perhaps a good way to help end the debate is to discuss other ways that a guy is serious about considering a relationship with a woman. That’s a perfect topic for HUS (and as probably been discussed many times over).
The women looking for free dinners will excuse themselves from a discussion about alternative indicators, since just being fed is their only real interest.
Concerning the argument about decreasing value of the V, Michael made a good point…giving it up without any signs of seriousness from the recipient isn’t doing very much for V-value either, lol.
@Michael, re#96
That was a kind of tongue-in-cheek statement on my part. If she’s had that many adventures in your city, word might get around, whether she was in your circle or not.
Re: #95
If you are seriously considering your lovely neighbor, you will need a totally fresh approach. You will need to befriend her father and brothers and prove that you are trustworthy. Ths will involve more work than spitting game and buying dinner.
@Susan
I’ve been meaning to say that the photo you picked for this post is super adorable.
@Royale
It sounds like even Stevenson and Wolfers are not clear on this point. Do people commonly divorce to re-enter the dating game? I know some do, but I can’t imagine a 38 year old woman staying in a bad marriage just because she thinks she won’t be able to get a date. The women I’ve known who date on Match after finding themselves single again get quite a bit of interest – and they are all in their 50s. Obviously, the key is who you’re going after.
@Kathy
I really did LOL for every one of your LOLs
@Kathy
LOL! I think he wants to avoid the marriage-minded ones and focus on the fun ones, LOL!
deti @ 77:
Did you read the first part of my comment? Or did you just ignore it since you can’t refute it?
I’ll repeat again:
There are too many blended families to sell the idea that single mothers are dooming themselves to never remarry or find a boyfriend again!
As for Angelina Jolie, if a woman has a high SMV like hers of course she will have no problem finding a mate! My point being , SMV will effort how hard/easy a women with kids has finding a new partner/husband — same as single woman without kids.
I still stand by my argument that having kids won’t automatically render a woman single for the rest of her days.
”If you are seriously considering your lovely neighbor, you will need a totally fresh approach. You will need to befriend her father and brothers and prove that you are trustworthy. Ths will involve more work than spitting game and buying dinner.”
Well, matter of fact, I think her dad might see some son-in-law potential in me, not sure. I know that, previous to my display of interest in the girl(getting nervous near her, my face becomes ruddy, I get out of my way to talk to her and since I don’t even look at the local girls despite their looks, they consider the small talk I have with her to be interest) the father and the girl wouldn’t talk to my mother, not even ”hi, how you doing?”
Soon after I noticed the girl the dad began to talk to my mother. It began with a ”hi”. Now they talk and the dude provides a lot of information about his daughter, what is she doing with her life, where is she at etc etc.
Her brother is 20 years old. Has a black belt and teaches martial arts for a living to junior high school students. The dad is obese but a former special forces soldier. Sometimes I joke around with my mom, telling her I want to fool around with the girl, but my mom insists that if I play, I’ll have to pay(marriage).
First, as I mentioned I know several women who have adopted orphans from other countries. What father are they being robbed of exactly? The state?
Second, AI is very expensive. I only know one successful businesswoman who did it. She raised her son very competently into a good and honorable young man. She never seemed particularly stressed out to me. As she was a lesbian, her MMV (at that time) was immaterial.
Third, I’m not advising any woman to go the single mother route. I consider that a personal choice requiring no advice from me one way or the other.
In fact, as you’ve noted, I don’t even advise women to avoid casual sex. Go HUSies!
I advise women seeking relationships to avoid casual sex because that’s a poor strategy for attracting a quality man. The only moral I concern myself with is the Golden Rule (and its variations).
Deti, you can make the same points without the condescending tone.
Never marry unless you and your partner are head over heels in love. If you have to wonder, you’re not.
———————————
Is it only my experience, or does everyone know more guys than girls who werent head over heels when they got married?
education and good jobs and high income etc.?
I think hormones explain a fair share. After thirty I am more drawn to the calming pair bonding feelings than I was in the testosterone fog of bye early twenties. So I am more likely to make a choice now that is compatible with the person I will be the rest of my life (more and more hormonally primed for calming pair binding feelings) than I was ten years ago. Back then it was more about primal attraction and fun. I am certain this is the case for women as well and that there indeed is a genuine hormonal based change towards attraction to more beta qualities.
——————————————————-
This makes perfect sense to me. I wonder why I did it completely the opposite. Husband number 1 beta-max ( if you giggle at that your age is showing). Husband number 2 way more fun, adventurous, risk -taking, etc. Perhaps it was just the contrast. :::shrug:::
The comment section of that Atlantic article is actually pretty interesting. People aren’t receptive to this particular brand of feminist BS.
To the author’s credit, at least she’s honest about feminism. (Feminism supports the right of women to make their own decisions …as long as it falls within the party line!)
Off topic, but I found this really neat article on CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/12/living/dumb-dad-stereotype/index.html
This comment was especially nice:
Ted D said
To be honest, I find it revolting that anyone would ever “fight” for custody. Children are not possessions to be divided along with the savings account. Unless there is a possibility of abuse, there is NO reason to put a child through something as horrible as a custody battle.
. ———————–
cosign, sine, tangent-EVERY WAY there is to agree with this. I had 50/50 custody, because its what was best for the kids…not me, not him-
FOR. THE. KIDS.
@Jen
It’s only your experience, Jen. Mine differs.
@Michael
“Soon after I noticed the girl the dad began to talk to my mother. It began with a ”hi”. Now they talk and the dude provides a lot of information about his daughter, what is she doing with her life, where is she at etc etc.”
Sounds pretty promising, especially since her dad might see you as son-in-law potential. Best of luck!
Pfffffffffffttttt!!!
What in the hell is this?!
I spat out my drink Anacaona. No fair.
Of course. Why would attractive members of either sex go “slumming” if they didn’t have to? If they have options, why wouldn’t they pick the best one?
SayWhaat:
“Deti, you can make the same points without the condescending tone.”
Well, SayWhaat, you’re no stranger to condescending tones. Remember this?
“So Dear Deti admits to being a cheating cad. Remind me again, Passerby, why we feel sorry for a marriage he clearly deserves?”
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/03/23/politics-and-feminism/is-slut-shaming-making-a-comeback/comment-page-8/
I suggest you come down off your moral high horse now. You also might want to soften the lecturing tone yourself. Glass houses, stones, and all that.
I made one comment and I stand by it because you brought it on after all the blasting of women you’ve done. In fact, I think you’ve done more to verbally abuse the women here than I have ever done towards you.
Everything I have said has been a judgment of your actions, not your sex.
Whatever, SayWhaat. You’re a hypocrite.
LOL
that Elizabeth Wurtzel piece was easily the stupidest thing I have read in the past 30 days, and that includes work memos.
“that Elizabeth Wurtzel piece was easily the stupidest thing I have read in the past 30 days, and that includes work memos.”
LOL
http://www.elle.com/Life-Love/Sex-Relationships/Failure-to-Launch-When-Beauty-Fades
@119 and 120 Another Kate Bollick. What is wrong with these women??? At least they’re sharing so others can learn from their foolishness.
A very interesting post, Susan, and one that touches on some major issues in the ‘sphere–including the head-over-heels vs. same values debate (AKA the dopamine vs. oxytocin debate).
First this: “Because, being better experienced, they have more insight into the marriage market?”
As someone who married in her early 30s, I’d answer yes to this question. One thing you learn is that there is no perfect One out there waiting for you. There are probably many potential mates out there for each of us, but we need to find the best fit while always bearing in mind that the best fit won’t be Prince/ss Charming. S/he will be another fallible person like ourselves. Underlying Lori Gotlieb, Liz Wurtzel and Kate Bolick’s stories is the notion that The Perfect One was out there, just around the corner, waiting to be a prop in some sort of fairy tale life. Really the best anyone can do is to find a compatible person who is attractive to them and shares enough of the same values so that they can build a life together.
@M3
I’m sorry to hear about the way your marriage broke up. I think it’s really sort of typical and not at all your fault or the result of not having tight enough game. It seems inevitable to me that many relationships die in just the fashion that yours did.
I think the key to have a successful marriage is having enough regard, caring and friendship between spouses to allow for that oxytocin love to kick in after the dopamine love dies a natural death. Yes, everyone wants that head over heels feeling in the beginning, but if I had to make a choice or advise my sons, I’d say go for the friendship-based love. It’s really what you’re going to have at the five year point if you are still together. I doubt the ability of Game to keep a relationship going indefinitely in the absence of real love and respect.
I spat out my drink Anacaona. No fair.
Sorry, trying to answer to Michael on terms he cannot “read into”, I will make you a deal if we ever meet in person I will buy you a drink… is that good enough?
I know one of the reason I didn’t prioritize marriage while younger is purely economic; when you’re a student, not rich with no job, and surrounded by males your age with raging hormones, the math is not encouraging.
Now that world is a mess and the youth jobless, I think it will get harder for milenials to enjoy marrying young.
Regarding Angelina Jolie, don’t forget some very important points.
Yes, a smv but with some craziness in her younger days giving her a halo effect because of her smv?
Yet, when she became a single mother, she was a single mother by adoption (child #1). He was her partner by the time she was undergoing the process of adopting the second one?
Perhaps her maternal instincts were what attracted him in that she didn’t become a biological single mom but did so by adoption? It was something admirable which did not affect her smv but increased her mmv in a great way?
She only had her first child with Brad long after the adoption of the first two children. Then another adopted child, then the twins she gave birth to.
Generalization Time!:
I think Brad + Angelina are the perfect example/symbol of every woman’s subconscious hypergamous goal. Pretty much every girl secretly wants to be the “Brangelina” power couple . To marry the king and become his queen. (Brangelina are pretty much Hollywood royalty.)
That being said, what lots of girls don’t realize is that even if you marry Brad Pitt, it’s impossible to be “Brangelina” unless you’re Angelina Jolie. Otherwise you’re just “Brad Pitt and …some chick.”
@Escoffier
I can’t decide whether to write about it or not. She’s a great example of feminist bigotry.
@Underdog
I’d forgotten that article, wow what a confirmation of Game principles. I think I will have to write on this after all.
@Mireille
Agreed, and the men are worse off financially than the women. Marriage is financially efficient, but most couples prefer financial security from the male before doing it.
I would think marriage would increase due to the finances. Would cohabitating change? When I got married at 24 I supported us while the hubs went to grad school, and made a pittance at his first real job. I didn’t lift it, but it would never have stopped me from marrying. Then again ,nothing would have stopped me.
”Agreed, and the men are worse off financially than the women. Marriage is financially efficient, but most couples prefer financial security from the male before doing it.”
Not necessarily. Guys can group up and live together. I know quite a few guys from High school who moved in together after graduating. They live in a huge beach house, aren’t dating thus they don’t waste money, and they spend all of their free time hanging out together, playing sports and playing video games.
Seems like a pretty sweet deal. The few young men living on their own that I personally know, are trust-fund babies, and you can figure out how much sex they’re having, lol. What’s really funny is that each and every woman they end up in bed with thinks she has the magical vagina that will make the dude(s) leave his awesome life to make a family/live with her/commit to her.
The collapse of western civilization is kinda amusing to observe.
”’I would think marriage would increase due to the finances. ”’
Don’t see how. Among Christian young people, sure, I can see the background leading to that decision, but non-religious young men are more interested in trying to get laid as soon as they get some cash. I mean, I know a handful of young men who came across a generous amount of cash and instead of saving the money, they’re planning a trip to go to Germany and spend it all on the legalized prostitutes, lol.
”I’d forgotten that article, wow what a confirmation of Game principles. I think I will have to write on this after all.”
Looking forward to that piece
J: “Yes, everyone wants that head over heels feeling in the beginning, but if I had to make a choice or advise my sons, I’d say go for the friendship-based love.”
Very true, just don’t let them think friendship leads to sex, lest they fall victim to Cuddle & Conpliment game. It is a very fine line a balance. Sex should lead to friendship.
J
The novelty of initial attraction does dissipate during the 1st year of the relationship. But you’re absolutely right on this point. It sounds cheesy, but my wife is my best friends, because I spend most of my free time with her and enjoy doing so. I’ve never seen a successful marriage in my age group where there wasn’t a strong friendship component. How can young people navigate the ups and downs and inevitable relationship conflicts if they don’t appreciate each other as human beings? Dominance vs. submission, as simple as that? I don’t think so…
@Megaman
Agreed, my marriage is also of the best friend sort. Also known as egalitarian. Like you, the best marriages I see rely heavily on friendship. That does not necessitate ignoring sex differences, as equal does not mean identical.
@SW
Agreed again. I just don’t see how sex can come before friendship-like feelings. Avoiding the non-sexual friend-zone is always wise, but that requires the guy to show overt and direct interest, which is fine. It may be bad advice to some, but I think it’s a mistake to pursue girls purely on the basis of physical attraction. That’s a short-term strategy, because common interests never enter into the equation. Opposites may attract, but by and large they don’t marry for life.
I’ve seen “relationships” where the guy and girl get together for sex, dinner, and little else. The rent gets paid, they’re monogamous, but they don’t last. I don’t think that’s the kind of serial monogamy you endorse : )
Ideally it doesn’t. But this SMP is far from ideal. The best definition of hookup culture I’ve read was by Kathleen Bogle, an academic. She said that it’s the inverse of the traditional order of emotional intimacy before physical intimacy. Hooking up starts with sex. It’s not a recipe for a meaningful relationship.
@SW
Sorry, I was referring to meaningful relationships with that comment. Given that most young people do go on to find them and marry after college, hooking up doesn’t appear to be the dominant script after graduation. So perhaps the ideal strategy is the most common one at that point.
I’ve read some of Bogle’s stuff. She doesn’t exactly come down for or against the hookup scene. I’m just curious as to how “emotional intimacy” has been defined. Because even just kissing someone you take a liking to has been defined as hooking up, when the differences between that and actual sex are like night and day. The term has been expanded to basically crowd out every alternative, even though they exist. I recall romantic couples forming on campus to some degree, and they definitely didn’t begin by the “sex with a stranger, go from there” method.
@SW,
“She said that it’s the inverse of the traditional order of emotional intimacy before physical intimacy.”
I heard something similar not too long ago. A guy was saying “It used to be that you would meet someone, decide whether or not you like them, then have sex. Nowadays, you meet someone, have sex, then decide whether or not you like them…”
intimacy before physical intimacy.”
I heard something similar not too long ago. A guy was saying “It used to be that you would meet someone, decide whether or not you like them, then have sex. Nowadays, you meet someone, have sex, then decide whether or not you like them…”
.
—————————————————
THat is a really stupid way to find a spouse. Why are people doing this? rhetorical It makes me crazy!
“THat is a really stupid way to find a spouse. Why are people doing this? rhetorical It makes me crazy!”
Agreed. Unfortunately this seems to be the way of things in the modern SMP. By the way, this kind of reminded me of a Nietzsche quote I heard a long time ago:
“Sensuality often hastens the growth of love so much that the roots remain weak and are easily torn up.”
“THat is a really stupid way to find a spouse. Why are people doing this?”
Obviously, most people do not consider members of the body-first crowd worthy of spouse status
@ Abbot and this is Jen
I’m not looking for a wife, but I think I might have some interesting perspective on your question. For a very long time, I was a sex-first kind of guy. I’d go on dates, but it was always with the idea of “let’s get through 3 dates so I can bang her, then maybe I’ll like her, and we’ll see where it goes”. I also had ONS and booty calls who I was with just for the sex. However, as time has gone on, my priorities have changed. Don’t get me wrong, I love sex as much as the next man, but its importance for me has changed. Maybe it’s that given that it’s not hard for me to get, its value has decreased accordingly (standard supply/demand laws).
What IS hard to obtain, is a smart, fun, loyal, funny girl. I’ve recently been getting a lot of shit from some of my friends (mostly out-of-towners who’ve just heard) about breaking up with my ex, along the lines of “she was so hot and devoted to you how could you blah blah blah”. I heard a line in a movie recently, “It’s not the girl you want to spend Friday night with. It’s the girl you want to spend all day Saturday with.” As great as my ex was (and she was, she’s a fantastic person), she was the former, and less so the latter. By the end of our relationship, I’d realized that if there wasn’t a TV in the room, we’d be sitting either in silence, or making small talk.
Maybe it’s from that experience, but I think it’s also from the fact that when you’ve had a lot of sex (my N is over 25 at this point, longest dry spell since I was 20 is 5 weeks), it becomes far less important. I feel like it’s largely out of my system. That doesn’t mean I’m turning down ONS or not hitting on girls at bars. However, the end goal there is get her number, ask her out, and get to know her. As I said to my friend when he asked if I’d banged a girl yet, the sex is incidental. And I think my other friend said it very well on Sunday, talking about the girl he took home the night before: “It wasn’t worth it at all”. It’s exhausting, mentally, to be on point with your game every night, to deal with what are largely the ditzes and sluts who you can take home that night and fuck. As he said, at a certain point, it’s just not worth it anymore. I spent Friday and Saturday checked out from the pickup game, already having 3 dates lined up for the next week before my weekend started, with girls I actually wanted to get to know.
I could continue with lessons learned, talk about maturing or whatever, but that’s enough of a russian novel for one post, so I’m going to leave it as is for now.
“given that it’s not hard for me to get, its value has decreased accordingly ”
Since women are humans too then its a fact that the value of sex to them is way low, and much lower than the value men place on it, especially if women are prolific about what is much easier for them to get than it is for most men to get.
Women can make sex cheap like few men ever could. THAT is the double standard and there is NO other…
@Susan
AI or adoption sounds like poor planning to me. If a woman is going to be a single mom on purpose, wouldn’t it make more sense to find a guy with a good job, let him get you pregnant, dump him and then start collecting child support?
After all, being a single mom is hard work, so don’t do it for free ladies!
@Zach
“What IS hard to obtain, is a smart, fun, loyal, funny girl.”
Hey Zach,
A question for you: Let’s say you meet this incredible girl who not only meets all the qualifications above– she fulfills them beyond all expectation. One who makes all other girls fade into the background, like they don’t even exist. For you, she is IT!
Question: How long would you wait for sex before dumping her?
@Jackie
Tough question. The only girls I’ve ever really fallen for were the ones who DID make me wait for sex. However, the 3 date “rule” is so prevalent here in the city that when a girl doesn’t sleep with you after 3 dates you start to wonder if she’s really not that into you. With my ex, we slept together on the 5th date (which was about 3 weeks into dating). I think it all depends. For me at least there has to be some sort of progression towards sex. That doesn’t mean I have to sleep with her on the 3rd date, but there has to be evidence that things are moving forward physically. So maybe a kiss on the 1st/2nd date, a makeout session on the 3rd, some clothes off on the 4th/5th, etc, etc. As long as it’s apparent there’s light coming at the end of the tunnel, I’m fine with waiting a certain amount of time. Now when I say certain amount, I don’t mean 5 months. If I haven’t slept with a girl after say, 6 or 7 dates, then I’m starting to get frustrated. And part of that is the fact that the “price” in NYC is generally set at 3 dates, so that’s where expectations tend to gravitate no matter what the girl. And nobody but chumps buys the “I don’t want to rush it with you because I think you’re really special” bs. Here’s how a guy hears that “I’ve been a slut with plenty of other guys, but I’m not as attracted to you so I’m going to make you take me out more to get in my pants.” I once had a girl I went out with who on the first date (as part of a very frank conversation) told me she’d once had a one night stand (all the usual qualifiers: drunk, stupid, etc). From that point on, she could have been the greatest person ever and I wouldn’t have cared. My whole focus became “well, if she did it for one guy, why not me”, and it was a full-court press to get in her pants.
On another note, not sleeping with a guy after the 3rd date is a GREAT way to weed out players and people who aren’t really interested (sometimes, me). There are times when I’ll go on the first date, and it’ll be very apparent to me that I’m not really interested in the girl at all beyond her looks. At that point, I make the decision to “put in” my 3 dates in the hopes of getting laid. If it doesn’t happen after date 3, I bolt. I know quite a few guys who are like that as well.
“I don’t want to rush it with you because I think you’re really special”
That is now codified into dating law as not permissible
“well, if she did it for one guy, why not me”
Why do women have such a stubbornly hard time understanding or accepting this universal male view?
1 2 »
{ 1 trackback }