Happy Father’s Day to all the men who nurture, teach, coach, raise, support and love their children.
You are heroes. Without you, society falls apart.
From David Blankenhorn‘s Fatherless America:
- Approximately 30% of all American children are born into single-parent homes, and for the black community, that figure is 68%;
- Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug andalcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics.
- Over half of all children living with a single mother are living in poverty, a rate 5 to 6 times that of kids living with both parents;
- Child abuse is significantly more likely to occur in single parent homes than in intact families;
- 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census;
- 72% of adolescent murderers grew up without fathers. 60% of America’s rapists grew up the same way according to a study by D. Cornell (et al.), in Behavioral Sciences and the Law;
- 63% of 1500 CEOs and human resource directors said it was not reasonable for a father to take a leave after the birth of a child;
- 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes according to the National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools;
- 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes according to a report in Criminal Justice & Behavior;
- In single-mother families in the U.S. about 66% of young children live in poverty;
- 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes;
- Children from low-income, two-parent families outperform students from high-income, single-parent homes. Almost twice as many high achievers come from two-parent homes as one-parent homes according to a study by the Charles F. Kettering Foundation.
- 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes according to a study by the Center for Disease Control;
- Of all violent crimes against women committed by intimates about 65% were committed by either boy-friends or ex-husbands, compared with 9 % by husbands;
- Girls living with non-natal fathers (boyfriends and stepfathers) are at higher risk for sexual abuse than girls living with natal fathers;
- Daughters of single mothers are 53% more likely to marry asteenagers, 111% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have a premarital birth and 92% more likely to dissolve their own marriages.
- A large survey conducted in the late 1980s found that about 20% of divorced fathers had not seen his children in the past year, and that fewer than 50% saw their children more than a few times a year.
- Juvenile crime, the majority of which is committed by males, has increased six-fold since 1992;
- In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed “greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households,” according to a study published in the Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology.
- The Scholastic Aptitude Test scores have declined more than 70 points in the past two decades; children in single-parent families tend to score lower on standardized tests and to receive lower grades in school according to a Congressional Research Service Report.
The most important criterion you can apply to choosing a husband is his potential to be an excellent father.
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While many/most of these statistics are well known, it is depressing how little respect fathers get from society in general and the media in particular …
Keke, Aunt Giggles is at it again. Wow what sweet words. Of course they are also kind of pointless. So long as Feminism’s totalitarian hold on marriage remains unbroken, so long as men remain in marital (and general) bondage male withdrawal from society will continue.
And even if things were somehow magically rectified now…what of my generation? What of broken men like me? Are we simply supposed to ‘man up’ and just forget what was done to us? How we were marginalized, ostracized, rejected, humiliated, ignored and left to rot in deep freeze? Men don’t become ghosts….society molds men into ghosts.
This is my beef with you, Aunt Giggles: you are concerned for mens’ welfare only because their present damaged state is starting to have a negative impact on womens’ welfare. You do not care for men per se, nor for fathers for that matter. You just want to repair a useful tool, cut the starving beast of burden just enough slack to recuperate.
And that is why your entire fairy tale here will fail. The only way to prevent the coming apocalypse would be general reconciliation. As women were the agents of evil in this war it is their responsibility to reach out and do their very best to help these wounded spectres in the night. Nowhere have I read anything about this from you. Thus I conclude it is not something you deem to be important.
And thus you fail. Because without healing this sizable and ever growing contingent of malcontents, sad men, broken men, men going their own away and dudes having nothing to lose…there won’t be a happy end. This rotten house of cards will crash, civilization will fall and the light of society be extinguished.
Oh there *WILL* be a reckoning, hark my words, there will. And you wimminz will pay for your sins…pay in kind. This war will not end in a shmaltzy happy end. This war will end in inferno….like 1945 in Berlin and Dresden.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand here we go again…
The Misogynist’s Alchemy:
Turns lemonade into piss just by opening his mouth.
Ghost raises a good point, though. There’s a generation of men who have used and abused. They are battle-scarred, wary, and bitter.
But I think a bit of respect will go a long way. Men are forgiving sorts.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Happy Father’s day to all of the dads!
@Susan:
“63% of 1500 CEOs and human resource directors said it was not reasonable for a father to take a leave after the birth of a child”
This needs to be changed, given the number of households two working parents and how difficult it can be to care for an infant. I don’t think that a paternity leave request is unreasonable.
I wonder how many fishes out there wish they had bicycles.
Hey Ghost. Have you always had trouble recognizing friend from foe? Or is that a new thing for you?
Look. If you’re not gonna accept the idea of “manning-up”, that’s fine. But quit your whining, will ya? It’s annoying.
Ha, forgot it was Father’s day. Apparently there is also an International Men’s Day, think it’s somewhere in the winter season, I had no clue it existed until now. I do remember International Women’s Day though, the newspaper I read was written and edited solely by women that day, with corny slogans and everything.
Hey Joe. Have you always had trouble comprehending the intrinsic subtleties of female debate framing? Or is that a new thing for you?
Seriously, you sound like someone who has not understood Mrs. Walsh at all. You also sound pretty green. How about looking below the surface of things? Aunt Giggles has an agenda. An agenda that entirely disqualifies her for any man worth his salt. Castrated, braindead manginas, cretins and court cringers, however, will likely enjoy her as an ersatz mum.
Maybe that’s why you’re white knigthing?
With “friends” like her….who needs foes?
Ghost, I know men are generally fucked nowadays, but no matter how bitter you get or how much you bitch and rant, women are not going to line up and give you blowjobs to say they’re sorry. Either learn to play the hand you’re dealt or fold entirely. Don’t antagonize someone who’s only trying to help.
@Jacob Marley
Dude, you are such a downer. Go rattle your chains somewhere else. We have a perfectly lovely time here and don’t need the buzzkill. Commenters like you make all men look bad – you’re just ammunition for Amanda Marcotte & Co. The best thing you could do for your fellow man is to stop haunting the internet.
Unfortunately, the present climate against men – when it comes to marriage and everything else in today’s society, guarantees that he will fail. Not for anything he does, other than accept the status quo.
To all of the women out there who are single mothers I have only one thing to say to you, “Thank you.” Because of you, boys never see what it is like to be a man, and look to women for approval, and guarantee that they will never succeed. Of course their daughters never grow up with a strong male figure, so they seek out strong male approval all of their lives, and crave to be told they are doing things correctly, and will do anything to gain that.
As a result, when your daughters are in their teens and see a man who hasn’t been castrated, they are ripe for the picking, ready to do anything to gain that approval they never had growing up. Of course your sons, trying to be “men” have only the template of feminism for what a man is – so they gravitate toward gangs and cruelty never knowing that to be a man is to create society, to build great things. Instead they are what feminism teaches a “man” is – a cruel little childish creature who thinks being in a gang is what it takes to be a man. Pitiable creatures, by real men, and the women who’s approval they crave.
As an older man, who grew up in a home with strong male figures, I have succeeded in life, and found that there are so many young and lovely women all wanting my attention, how could I ever deny them access to my bed, so they can gain my approval? I approve of them when they are doing the things I want. I approve of when when they make me happy. You have given rise to women like all men crave. When they go out and work, so that they can pay their own way to be with me on a trip, with another young woman. It makes it so that I can have access to so many more women then I ever could have hoped for, and they are willing to share since otherwise they have to do without. And they did without growing up, and aren’t willing to give it up when they are older.
So to all of those single mothers – thank you for a wonderful “father’s day”… Being the “father” to all of these lovely young creatures is exhausting, but oh-so-pleasurable… And I owe it all to you…
Today makes me sad. Not because it is Father’s Day; I have spoken with my father (who is still married to my mother).
But because today’s praise is always measured against fathers’ performance at their job. Mothers are not scolded for ‘not being there enough’ on Mother’s Day. Yet we as a society think it’s okay to do that to fathers?
Despite the *blatant* evidence of a father’s importance, we feel justified in talking down to the very men who could rectify the problems.
My sister has two sons. Both by different men. Neither of whom has been involved in their child’s life. Why? Because…
-One was committed soon after his son was born (paranoid schizophrenic).
-The other pulled a gun and threatened them. He spent time in jail, before this (and I believe after).
I met these ‘men’ before they were put away. They were not suitable as fathers at all. Yet she still defends them–and keeps spurning men who would make good fathers. Of course such men leave her alone…where she is now.
Her sons? Their grandfather and myself took it upon ourselves to impart values to them whenever possible. Still young, but they are growing up well. In a couple years I will tell them the reality of the SMV, and caution them against any serious relationship.
I will never subject myself to the horrible treatment fathers receive in our society. But I want to protect my nephews from it as well.
Now, I need to go clear out all the ‘man up’ articles from my RSS reader.
To add some personal perspectives on celebrating fatherhood, instead of joining in painting the lovely mural of the post male apocalyptic hellscape, which unfortunately is turning out to be the meme du jour…
When I went shopping for Father’s day cards and gifts for my immediate family, it wasn’t much trouble for me to grab greeting and gift cards for my dad and my brother-in-law. But a day later I realized that I didn’t buy one for my little brother. It could have been innocent forgetfulness (his son isn’t a year old yet), but when I started debating whether I should get him anything at all, I realized it was more than just that.
He is cohabitating with his girlfriend whom he as a child with. He is very irresponsible, has had run-ins with the law, barely stays employed, and has very little respect for our family in general. But, he’s still “present.” I feel a bit conflicted giving a father’s day card to a guy who is doing the bare minimum…even though he’s my blood brother.
I decided to stop wringing my hands and send him a card anyway.
Happy father’s day!
think it’s somewhere in the winter season, I had no clue it existed until now.
November 19, we remember it on my country but is not as celebrated as women’s day. Baby steps.
Is interesting how many trolls came to bash you for recognizing fatherhood. I guess you are the “yelling to a woman that finally listens” is part of father’s day.
None of that is going to change until it’s socially acceptable, or even required, to look these women – choice-mommies, frivolous divorcers, and women who chose crappy husbands – in the eye, tell them they wrecked their child’s life and that they are terrible people. Shame is the only thing they understand. But there won’t be improvement so long as women and white knights team up to defend “heroic” single moms for their actions.
Heck, when a single mommy claims she can do just as well raising her kid as a two-parent home, no one even bothers to ask the obvious question: doesn’t that mean the father’s role is completely superfluous? How is that not a hateful, discriminatory statement by direct implication?
Ghost of a Nice Guy has a point, even if he’s lost patience with trying to frame it politely (Can’t blame him for that; I’d do the same if I didn’t honestly believe that polite debate was the better long-term response to red pill chicks). Men have spent most of the last forty years either clueless or (rarely) on the defensive. We need to step up and go on offense. We need to offend, and challenge. Which is a pretty alpha move if you can get away with it anyway.
And call me unprincipled, but if women want to do the right thing for selfish reasons, I’ll take it. This site is supposed to be about telling women what they can change about themselves in order to get a better life, and I see no reason we can’t make them see that the harm to men needs to stop, even if they only do it to increase our utility. Naked self interest will beat altruism nine times out of ten, so may as well make some use of it. Menfolk will be ready for it.
Anyway, thanks for posting the reminder. The more people see those stats, the better, and eventually people won’t be able to pretend that women’s choices aren’t the cause of it all.
@Royale
I think sending a card was a good move, under the heading of reinforcing behaviors you want to see more of.
I appreciate the sentiment for what it’s worth. Father’s must be recognized for the important role they are required to play and how absenteeism of fathers, either by being a coward or by being removed from the role by force of government and vindictive mothers is ruining the future lives of their children. I have dealt with enough daddy issues women to realize just how the absence (or abuse) of a dad can screw up a woman’s ability to bond with a man.
They end up becoming Grown Wounded Children
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqZQaJtmqgQ&w=560&h=315
http://sfhelp.org/gwc/gwc.htm
This whole concept of selfish divorcing and breaking family structures apart because it’s better for the children to not see their parents fighting or miserable shuffle in silence is a myth. Kids crave structure and consistency in their lives and would rather have both parents around who love them than assume one has abandoned them (usually the furthest thing from the truth).
But to the larger points of people getting upset up above in the thread, the argument is valid. No amount of praise for fathers will make single men want to put the barrel up to their head with 6 shooter loaded with 5 rounds. Men continue to hear the horror tales from other men at an exponential rate. The ‘that can’t happen to me’ attitude is starting to wane. The internet continues to spread the message. The media is picking up on it with its shaming tactics but it continues to spread unabated.
Until there is a sea change in attitude amongst women to they begin to work for the cause of bringing justice and equality to a rigged system, men will continue to opt out and your site’s goal of getting men and women to marry will fail. You can’t ask us to take a leap of faith anymore. It’s not our problem to fix a system that women created. Don’t kid yourself, women created it, got stupid beta men to support it, and reaped the benefits of if. Women broke it, women own it.
Fix the system, show us you care about us as human beings instead of tools for a means to an end, and then perhaps marriage will become palatable once more.
How will that be done? Don’t know, don’t care. Tho it would be nice to see a million woman march waving signs saying ‘men are people too’ and ‘safe effective birth control for men NOW’ and ‘ unhaaaapy? suck it up – say no to easy unfair divorce laws’.. just for starters. And don’t say that it’s men that need to do this. We’re getting used to the status quo and not in our interest to change it, it’s women who want us to ‘man up’.
Of all my friends, married or otherwise, when they see me interact with their kids they lament that i would make such a good father and it’s such a shame that i’ve made my choice to forgo progeny while so many others who shouldn’t be having children are having them. We are breeding ourselves back to a more primal state. But i will NEVER take the chance to have kids, much less try marriage again in this current game. Someone needs to hit the reset switch. I’ll give you a hint. It isn’t men.
So Happy Fathers day.
On my twitter feed this morning: “Happy Father’s Day to all the single moms out there”… Sent out by a single mom and enthusiastically retweeted.
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
OMG that is so inappropriate. I have no words.
On my twitter feed this morning: “Happy Father’s Day to all the single moms out there”… Sent out by a single mom and enthusiastically retweeted.
The fuck!? Is there anything SOME women can’t make about themselves? Maybe we should create penis/grow a beard day or something like it
@ Anacaona
We’ll always have no-shave November. At least above the neck.
I believe it might be useful respond to the original accusation:
This is not accurate, at least in terms of the cause and effect laid out here.
I am on record as saying that a society whose men are not thriving cannot stand. I have written about this on several occasions but have never advised men to “man up.” Rather, I lay responsibility for the disenfranchisement of men in our society at the feet of feminism. The Women’s Movement championed gains for women, but it was a zero sum game. The pie didn’t get bigger, so many opportunities shifted from men to women. It’s convenient but not terribly useful to blame females collectively for the changes we’ve witnessed in the last 40-50 years. The truth is that many men embraced feminism, if not in theory, then definitely in practice.
In fact, perhaps no element of changing mores was more embraced by men than the culture of “free love” and “sex as empowerment.” It is only in hindsight that we can see the devastation wrought by fully unleashed female sexuality, where many men feel sexually marginalized. In fact, I’d wager that if you surveyed young men today, an overwhelming majority would still indicate they prefer the potential for casual sex without commitment over the more certain and predictable sex for commitment that is a feature of assortative mating.
It is an inconvenient truth that feminism has as many, if not more, male followers than female followers, e.g. politicians. And most men are enablers of feminist dogma. Men as a whole have never recognized feminism for what it is: not an attempt to forge equity, but an attempt to achieve supremacy.
The damaged state of men is currently still benefiting women, on the whole. Women are still ascending in society, while men continue to decline. In some ways women have it made – there is little a woman cannot do or have today, regardless of whether there is a man in her life.
Women are the new beasts of burden. They are now the primary breadwinners in more than half of American homes. Women are overwhelmed with responsibilities at work and at home.
I predict that you will see more calls for men to step up, as women increasingly resent the very roles that feminism thrust upon them, and they will resort to blaming men for dropping the ball.
The only way our civilization can survive is via equilibrium between the sexes. Both feminists and MRAs reject that. In any case, the decline will take many years, so any premature celebrating on the part of angry men is premature. Despite ludicrous predictions of imminent apocalypse and bubbles bursting, we’ll limp along for generations. HUS is simply a strategic approach to riding out the bear market, for both sexes.
@Ana
No, there isn’t. I’ve been reading a new blog (new to me) “The Last Psychiatrist” as part of an effort to read psychology blogs. A major theme is just how narcissistic modern society is.
@Susan
From your lips to God’s ear, but at the risk of tooting my own horn, if the majority of women even claim close to thinking like this would so many men like me be on the sidelines while PUAs have tons of followers?
Interesting that on a post that stresses the importance of fathers so many MTGOW (men that have chosen to to marry and have children) on using the comments to bash woman en masse…
Returning on topic, Susan these stats are heartbreaking. My parents split up when I was young but growing up my dad was a consistent presence in my life. I cannot imagine how my formative years would have been like without him.
My heart goes out those who grew up without a dad. It’s really sad that more children are facing that reality. However, I know it takes two to parent — it’s not the mother’s fault if the father decides not to be in his child’s life. That’s on him. That said, it is the job of the mother to select the best possible mate.
@M3
First, a valid argument is doomed to go unheard when obfuscated by hate speech. It doesn’t matter how right you are if everyone wants you to shut up and go.
Second, please disabuse yourself of the notion that the post is written to encourage single men to become fathers. It is an expression of gratitude for the incredible work that fathers do and the value of their contribution to society. There is no agenda. I woke up this morning next to a man who has been a good, loving and inspiring father, and I appreciate him.
I suggest that you get yourself to an ER as soon as possible. You have been infected with the virulent manosphere virus known as Euripidean Gynophobia. Based on your descent into hate speech and delusional thinking, I fear it is too late for an antidote to be administered. Your chance of exiting psychosis at this point is completely dependent on your avoiding the manosphere for a minimum of two weeks.
(Seriously, dude, what’s happened to you? Mikey, we hardly knew ye. Whatever gets you through the night, I guess, but you’re not going to vent here.)
@Herb
You, PUAs and their followers are all the same kind of man.
I feel like a lot of the trolls forget the mission/target audience of this blog.
They should really take up their issues with the women who hurt them rather than yell at a bunch of college girls.
Susan, that was beautiful. Nearly brought tears to my eyes, it did. You should write an article regarding your stance on feminism and make it a giant link on the homepage to ward off future trolls.
@Susan
Nice to know in the end, despite being here because I don’t think the R’s are the answer, in the end you see me as no different.
It’s been fun…thanks for all the fish.
Hey Susan!
Just stopping by to say “thanks” for recognizing how important Dads are.
My brother and I just finished celebrating Father’s Day with my Dad. We asked him about a million times what he wanted for his special day.
Instead of asking for any material thing (ties, books, electronics, etc)… he just wanted to break bread with us. It was pretty awesome: my brother made Southern-fried chicken and cornbread, I took care of the coleslaw and homemade oatmeal-raisin cookies. YUM
We talked about all kinds of subjects– books and current events and people and stories of when we were little. It was really a good time where we were able to “honor” my dad
and let him know how much he means to us. (Love you, Daddy.)
It is not my place to criticize. I would only like to respectfully offer the viewpoint that saying put-downs may not be the greatest way of honoring your dad on his day. It’s not not about us; it’s about them and all they’ve done.
Again, this is only my opinion– I really like tons of things on HUS and Mrs. Walsh is an awesome host!– for me to stay positive about marriage (improving my cooking, saving up more dowry $, becoming a better listener and better person), I find I need to take a break from commenting.
Some of the things here really hurt my heart to read. This xkcd cartoon sums it up:
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png
Thanks again to Susan for the post and hope everyone is having a peaceful and happy Father’s Day
You gotta love typos!
Meant to say:
MTGOW (men that have chosen not to marry and have children)
@Jackie:
“Some of the things here really hurt my heart to read. This xkcd cartoon sums it up: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png”
Well played! Nothing is a better remedy for the flame wars and trolling than a reminder of everyone’s humanity.
Excellent post.
And call me unprincipled, but if women want to do the right thing for selfish reasons, I’ll take it. This site is supposed to be about telling women what they can change about themselves in order to get a better life, and I see no reason we can’t make them see that the harm to men needs to stop, even if they only do it to increase our utility. Naked self interest will beat altruism nine times out of ten, so may as well make some use of it. Menfolk will be ready for it.
I think one thing many men have difficulty with and actually have to get over is the issue of motives versus agenda. Yes, I am generalizing, but men generally do put higher importance on abstract principles and justice over relationships. This can be extremely counterproductive when you have substantial alignment of agenda founded on different motives. I think it is folly to get to hung up on the motive part if there is an overlap of common agenda. Sure, it would be nice if everyone wanted the “right” result for the “right” reasons. But “right” result is good enough.
@Herb
Wait, wait, wait, that’s not what I meant!
I only meant that all men, or at least most men, want to be more successful with women, whether that’s in a relationship or just for casual sex. PUAs became PUAs because they wanted that. Their followers want that. And I think it’s true of the men here.
Herb, you’ve been here a while, so you know that I believe some women choose dads while others choose cads and always will. Obviously, the PUAs are going after the cad-loving crowd.
I think when we talk about women not wanting dads, we need to talk about what women are rejecting, exactly. I am certain it is not the desire to be a father one day. I think it’s most likely that many good men have been led to believe that women want the good dad traits without any dominance or male leadership. And now we know that that is not true.
I apologize, I was too glib in my answer and I can see why you took offense.
@Jackie
I’ve been thinking of you a lot lately, and hoped I hadn’t said or done anything to offend you. I hear you re needing to take a break. If there was anything in particular that drove you away, I would very much appreciate some feedback via email. You’re such an asset to HUS, such a positive person and you bring such great energy – I hate to lose that.
I am glad you are determined to stay positive about marriage. I highly recommend it with the right partner, and I know that you have very, very good filters set up for selecting a mate.
xoxo
Dads are so important. A huge part of why I am still head over heels is because of what a great dad my hubby is. He has the ability to balance discipline and fun. He makes me a better mom.
Susan #29
I’m not telling you to shut up and go, far from it. I’m saying that on it’s present trajectory, your sites mission will continue to have a harder time of getting women to marry as less and less men willing to entertain the idea of marriage. Now if your sites goal is only in it’s namesake.. hooking up, then i see no problem to this quandary. But if your goal is for folks to marry, have kids, etc.. you’re going to be fighting the whole of the ‘virulent’ manosphere that is educating men about the negative consequences in this timeline, myself included. Even if i wanted to get married again.. there is nothing that marriage adds to my life in value that offsets it’s dangers.
I’m not sure where i said single men should become fathers. I said single men learning of marriage 2.0, a 1 in 2 failure rate, financial/legal burdens will not take up the call to man up to want to find a wife and marry and have children. The allure of the lifestyle of easy living, free time and tons of disposable income in the face of the alternative will only grow.
The ER is full. Granted i’ve probably been poisoned over the last 3 weeks by events i should have avoided (where i should actually have listened to your sage advice) currently right now i’ve decided to put the wall back up temporarily. While i’ve moved on from that toxic vampire and should not be using her as the default norm of the female imperative, aside from the bitter tone i don’t know what i said that is off kilter.
If you think i stepped out of line, fair enough. I won’t bother ‘venting’ and only post one line comments instead since i now have my own outlet to vent.
But you know, in my life around me, i just don’t see women caring about these issues. Maybe you do, but not the ones i see around me. When i bring stuff up about mens issues, the sad states of affairs, why marriage is so unappealing right now, i get quizzical looks like they think im about to reach for a gun, or haven’t taken my meds. The urge to discount the interest of men by BOTH men and women in the real world is just disheartening. When women raise an issue, all women, strong men, beta men, white knights and mangina’s sound the trumpets from the heavens in order to be heard and acted upon by all.
So if i don’t see women in the real world caring about mens problems, i don’t care when they complain about them either.
Sometimes it just makes you go a little batty.
So i apologize for the rants tone, but not it’s core message. If that’s not good enough, so be it.
In fact, perhaps no element of changing mores was more embraced by men than the culture of “free love” and “sex as empowerment.” It is only in hindsight that we can see the devastation wrought by fully unleashed female sexuality, where many men feel sexually marginalized.
I think most men incorrectly assumed that the casual sex market would mimic the assortative relationship market. Haha, it didn’t work out that way.
In fact, I’d wager that if you surveyed young men today, an overwhelming majority would still indicate they prefer the potential for casual sex without commitment over the more certain and predictable sex for commitment that is a feature of assortative mating.
Interesting question. I’m not sure about that. I suspect the preference would show an extremely high correlation with male SMV. In other words, male 8-9s would prefer a high availability of casual sex without committment whereas say male 4-5s would not since they have no access to those options anyways.
I think in another comment someone said something about a 1/3 rule…1/3 prefer committed relationship, 1/3 are neutral, and 1/3 are exclusively short-term casual sex oriented. I’m really not sure how the percentages break down. We’ve got a few commenters here who have indicated they never had any interest in casual sex whatsoever and always just wanted relationships. I’ll admit I found this surprising as it doesn’t match with any guys I’ve known IRL except for maybe 1-2, but maybe that is because of the type of guys I usually associated with.
Speaking frankly, I’m pretty sure I would have been happy pursuing short-term casual sex with variety. In the 6-7 months where I was kind of leading that lifestyle prior to going exclusive I was happy and enjoying myself. I might have tired of it eventually…I don’t know. Obviously, I am happy as well in a exclusive, committed relationship. There is something very valuable about having someone who “has your back”. There are many things I value immensely in a relationship that I could not get from short-term casual sex partners.
So, back to the question, I actually think the majority of men would prefer an assortative relationship with consistent sex over more sporadic short-term opportunities, but I think the two primary variables would be male SMV and male age. A 24-year old guy with sky high SMV probably isn’t going to be relationship oriented which is why it is folly for a woman to try and lock that guy down.
The only way our civilization can survive is via equilibrium between the sexes.
Absolutely agree. The more difficult question is where that equilibrium sits. The more difficult and absurd position is that many women still think the current state of affairs is vastly inequitable to women. I”m thinking of this article I read the other day by Elizabeth Wurtzel I think. And women like Amanda Marcotte believe there are yet even more concessions/power/ to extract from men.
That picture beneath the quote at the top of the page is not me. I have no idea what Aunt Susan was thinking. Please find a real picture of me pronto. Kthxbai.
Even if i wanted to get married again.. there is nothing that marriage adds to my life in value that offsets it’s dangers.
M3 (Mike),
FWIW, our life stories have similar trajectories. I had a similar situation as you with my first marriage. FWIW, I recently just got engaged so I am giving it a second try. Perhaps it is the triumph of hope over experience
You never know….you might meet a woman that changes your outlook. I can’t say for sure, but I suspect the percentage of women who are of “marriageable quality” are a minority. They do exist though. I read comments from women like Hope, Anacoana, Jackie and you can tell they do exist. I really don’t know how you find them except try to meet tons of women and screen heavily and the first sign of selfishness, narcissism, vapidness, out they go.
Not telling you what to do, but just offering up a different perspective.
@SW
http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlftable25.htm
@SW
Sorry, damn touchpad freaked out again. In response to your point that woman make up the majority of breadwinners, the BLS says it’s only 30%. That data hasn’t been updated since 2007, but I’m sure things have changed somewhat since the Great Recession hit. Men have been hit with something like 80% of the job cuts, mainly blue collar I believe.
This is bit like asking someone, “If you could be king and get anything you wanted, what would it be?” However, I don’t believe you’ll find an overwhelming majority of young guys who agree. In that sense, you’ve kind of sold men short on their priorities. I believe there’s sufficient survey research out there to reach a conclusion, though. Particularly on Gen X and Gen Y. What would your wager be? I’m willing to take you up on it, within reason : )
From my experience most guys far and away prefer relationships with girls at roughly the same SMV over pursuing casual sex… provided those girls are relationship material.
Pursuing casual sex is usually Plan B when acceptable SMV and relationship suitability can’t be secured.
This is bit like asking someone, “If you could be king and get anything you wanted, what would it be?”
Well…there are guys who are kings when it comes to the SMP.
However, I don’t believe you’ll find an overwhelming majority of young guys who agree. In that sense, you’ve kind of sold men short on their priorities.
Meh….”priorities” is probably just part of it. I’m reminded of the notion of necessity being a virtue.
I, for one, appreciate what you said here, and what you do with this blog generally, Susan. Yes, marriage and divorce are badly slanted in favor of women, but I know that you aren’t making excuses for it.
Don’t let the rhetorical bomb-throwers turn you into some bitter feminist.
@Susan
“In fact, I’d wager that if you surveyed young men today, an overwhelming majority would still indicate they prefer the potential for casual sex without commitment over the more certain and predictable sex for commitment that is a feature of assortative mating.”
This is a conversation that occured on a very drunken night back in my younger days.
Some guy said this:
Most guys would prefer a relationship with an average (his word was cute) girl who was nice (more long winded) and LTR material.
I’m like this. My buddies, brother and cousins are like this. We also all LOVE sluts but the right women is better than a slut. A much better kind of love.
Let me put it in perspective.
80% of men are not of the pretty variety.
80% of women are not of the mommy (with daddy) variety (in my POV and frankly I think its way higher, like 95%)
I don’t mean I wouldn’t be compatible with 80% of women. I mean 80% of women aren’t girlfriend material for anybody due to bitchiness, sluttyness (not just N), entitlement etc. (Men probably have some entitlement as well but thats beyond the scope of my point.)
Its not meant to be mean. Think of it as encouragement. Much like game is effective for guys a girlfriend game for the ladies would probably be dynamite.
Most of the guys I have ever known really want that white picket fence relationship with rugrats and a retriever but it has to be with the right type of women. Sluts are merely the prelude to the rugrats.
We want you (no not you hoe, sit down, you the cute one with glasses) to be the mom of our children. We also want your sisters (get back here hoe) to be sluts.
PS Lovely post btw.
@Mike C
Congrats
I am not one of your fans. However, to be honest, I must state that this post is epicness sauteed in awesomesauce.
Thank you.
Lokland,
Thanks, and congrats to you as well!
BTW, cosign your post #51
I mean 80% of women aren’t girlfriend material for anybody due to bitchiness, sluttyness (not just N), entitlement etc. (Men probably have some entitlement as well but thats beyond the scope of my point.)
Its not meant to be mean. Think of it as encouragement. Much like game is effective for guys a girlfriend game for the ladies would probably be dynamite.
Yup. I’ll add its a lot of tough, hard work for a guy to boost his sexual attractiveness to women. Most guys are lazy and end up just saying fuck it, and are unwilling to do the work to both outer and inner. Similarly, it is hard work for a woman to boost her relationship attractiveness, and perhaps disappointingly many women reject what it takes outright (such as being more feminine or supportive instead of competitive). My guess is most women will reject both the work and the message, but for the minority who do they will be able to secure a relationship with a high quality guy who brings a lot to the table.
I was struck by a comment that Hope left somewhere comparing the 20 year old Hope to the 25 year old Hope. The 20 year old Hope was a ladder 2 pump and dump girl, the 25 year old Hope is man’s dream come true.
@this is Jen
That’s a lovely thing to say about the father of your children.
FWIW, I’ve always found you reasonable. But if people are looking at you like that one thing is certain – your message is not getting through. It may be fine online with other men who hold similar views, but that’s a very different and self-selected group. In my entire life I have never met an MRA in person. Yet I “know” dozens online. Seriously, there are some blog threads in that sphere that qualify as something the FBI should probably be investigating.
I don’t believe there is or will be a marriage strike in my target demographic. I’m not saying the SMP is a bed of roses – far from it. But I think most of the rhetoric should probably be toned down about 90% – for the real world.
@Mike C
I think your estimates of how guys feel about casual vs. relationship sex sounds reasonable. I will say that there is a chicken/egg question re beta guys and mating strategies. Are beta guys willing to settle for relationships b/c they can’t get casual sex, or do they avoid aggressively chasing the hookup scene b/c they’re really not looking to get with the Karen Owens of the world? I imagine it’s a mix.
I’m convinced that Elizabeth Wurtzel is certifiably insane after reading her most recent article. I can’t recall a more petty or vindictive bitchy piece of writing, even from Marcotte.
+1
I think both sexes pay far too little attention to the opportunity cost of not filtering out poor prospects quickly enough. Maybe I should write a post on this, with examples. A sort of “sliding doors” comparison.
@Zorro
I really appreciate that. Thank you.
I will say that there is a chicken/egg question re beta guys and mating strategies. Are beta guys willing to settle for relationships b/c they can’t get casual sex, or do they avoid aggressively chasing the hookup scene b/c they’re really not looking to get with the Karen Owens of the world? I imagine it’s a mix.
I think you are probably right that it is a mix. That said, there is a psychological bias (I don’t recall the exact name, I could go find it) that basically says once a person makes a decision, they retroactively convince themselves it was the right decision all along (this is slightly different from confirmation bias regarding an opinion). I’d have to go hunting, but this is a well-studied and documented effect. So if a guy realizes he probably has zero chance of succeeding in the casual sex market, he will quite successfully convince himself it is something he never wanted anyways. That said, I’m sure there are guys who authentically believe that from day one perhaps as a result of religious upbringing.
@SW
Good question. You don’t think there’s a large chunk of guys who prioritize LTRs and marriage when they’re young? It comes from their upbringing, and they tend to be called traditionally-minded. Though you wouldn’t know they exist based on popular culture. I believe the National Marriage Project estimated that 50% of young men are long-term oriented, another 30% would like to settle down (but not right now), and the last 20% or so are commitment avoiders.
I’ll add that there are many men who find the thought of going where many other men have gone before, even with protection, to be a disgusting thought. They most definitely don’t like promiscous women, for anything. But they’re bound to have their preferences questioned and second-guessed, just like women who say they’re not into “alpha” males. If most men are happy with their choices, that’s kind of answer to your question.
CG: “On my twitter feed this morning: “Happy Father’s Day to all the single moms out there”… Sent out by a single mom and enthusiastically retweeted.”
Yep, saw this in my Facebook feed, too. Single mom by choice who has a, no joke, penchant for posting harem pics – her and ten other girls all with one gangsta looking guy. Wonder how many kids he has…
Meg: “In response to your point that woman make up the majority of breadwinners, the BLS says it’s only 30%. ”
That survey doesn’t appear to count unmarried couples. I wonder…
@OffTheCuff
Can you provide a link to this picture? I need a good laugh.
Nice sentiments Susan. Sadly derailed very quickly today.
As a single father (widower) it makes my blood boil to hear single mums claiming credit for being fathers as well as mothers. I would never claim to be my son’s mum. Sadly he will never know his mother but I hope one day a good woman will be part of his life again.
BTW it’s a bit weird having fathers day in June. Back home it’s in September.
MikeC #45
For what it’s worth.. congratulations. I’m pretty confident you being who you are have vetted her and she’s a solid choice so i’m not particularly concerned your second go at it will falter.
My issue is twofold but revolve around one principle. Trust.
I do not yet believe I can trust in myself to make that judgement call. As stated before, i knew my wife for 15+ years as a friend. If i couldn’t figure her out or see through her in that time, what chance do i have after 1,2,5 years? With time running short i don’t have another 15 to figure it out. Even with all my new found knowledge and approach to understanding how to weed them out, i just can’t be sure because my exwife put on her best face throughout. That’s what made the turn on a dime so unbelievable.
And the second is trust in women. I’m sure the manosphere has done a wonderful job of poisoning me but the evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, have forced me to conclude that something has gone wrong with society and the rules that kept things in check prior are no longer in play. Learning about evo psych, science pointing to women wanting to bolt to badboys during ovulation, maintain a constant stream of energy to simply avoid losing attraction… i just throw my hands up in the air in despair. Everywhere i turn i see Briffault’s Law. I’ve lost the ability to believe a woman will bother to tough it out with me for better or WORSE.
Do i mean to be vicious about it? No. But i can’t in good concious direct men to go down a path with eyes wide shut. If they choose at the end of the day to get married, more power to them. I just hope i don’t see them on a manosphere forum somwhere down the road lamenting ‘damn dude… you were so f’n right!’
Again, for what it’s worth, i wish you the best of luck and a long happy marriage till death do youz part.
BTW it’s a bit weird having fathers day in June. Back home it’s in September.
In DR is the last Sunday of July so I only say congratulations to my USA father’s friends, daddy gets a call in July, I’m trying to keep as many of my traditions as possible, is also cheaper to buy presents like this
.
I do not yet believe I can trust in myself to make that judgement call. As stated before, i knew my wife for 15+ years as a friend. If i couldn’t figure her out or see through her in that time, what chance do i have after 1,2,5 years? With time running short i don’t have another 15 to figure it out.
Don’t blame yourself for that. Getting to know a person as a friend and getting to know them as romantic partners, spouses and lovers is a miles different away. I mentioned my friend who married her “best friend” of 9 years and he turned he cheated on her with a female friend, and abandoned her when she was 7 months pregnant of their first child even if she wanted to give him a second chance, given the story of him being such a “nice guy and good friend” in reality he always was a cad he just was very smart about it and went out of his way to present the best face he could. Sometimes we cannot help it, but it doesn’t mean we are less capable of. Although I get what you are coming from this friend of mine has swore out marriage and have given up the idea of having more kids (she wanted 3) out of the whole experience…sometimes people are like Humpty Dumpty. I hope you can get over it at some point in your life.
Susan #56
Emotions have been hard to keep in check as of late. Didn’t want to fold the cards but i finally took your advice and ended all association with her. Had to be done. My reasonableness is tied to my emotions and it swings like a metronome.
I’m not up on target demographics and guess i’m simply over generalizing about things. If it doesn’t affect your core market then it’s all kosher. I just know that when i speak to married guys and tell them, they all of a sudden tell me to stop talking because everything i say starts to sink in. I had one married guy tell me if he could go back and change his mind…. the game is rigged so badly to one side and many men go in it with eyes wide shut.
Lastly, about the real world.. i guess that was my main point. The real world doesn’t care. Doesn’t care about balancing the scales and righting inequality. We can all blather about it online but that won’t help effect change where it counts. My real world talks are risky only from the vantage point that i get no support, even from men. So i am the sole bad guy, not that i care really. But when you talk to enough people who don’t seem to care, you’re tone changes, which is what most likely has taken hold of me.
A marriage strike may or may not happen. But i take the current man up articles as the canary in the coal mine. And to me it looks like the canary is twitching at the bottom of the cage. Just my view.
And if i didn’t mention it yet, yes the post was nice and has merit. Every father i know in my circle is absolutely wonderful to their children and families so its nice to see the recognition. All my off topic stuff was in regard to reader comments, not the post itself.
@M3
Hi Mike,
I agree with you about the importance of trust and how much it hurts when it has been broken. I know much it hurts from personal experience, believe me. And there can be so much bad behavior out there some days you feel like giving up.
For me, Mike, observing people who have really good and strong relationships really helps. My parents weren’t married an extremely long time, but they had commitment in spades. I also deliberately seek out couples who’ve been married a long time who still really like each other– and observe them to see how they did it.
Lastly, I got rid of tv and avoid trashy stuff. Our culture glorifies a lot of bad behavior.
It’s poison!
I hope things get better, M3. You have tons of good qualities: intelligence, good sense of humor and a really big heart. That is worth a LOT.
Anacaona #67
What a piece of work. Behavior like that is so alien to me. Maybe people are born without souls.
I think i’ve been too scarred, first by my incel adventure ignored by women my entire teen/young adult life, then getting t-boned by the hypergamy express. At some point you just want to stay down, you’ll only get savaged again. That’s why MGTOW is so appealing. It’s only downside is that i’ll have a very good chance of never finding that life partner i wanted.. but that would be too beta of me now to admit i want one, neediness and all.
But i’ll keep a lookout for some superglue just in case.
Jackie # 69
Thanks for the kind words.
I don’t know if my parents are the best people to observe relationship wise, hence why i may have issues. I seem to be attracted to the wrong type of woman. Is there a relation? Dunno, tried to ask Olive once to psychoanalyze me. Maybe i’ll make a post on it down the road.
And yes, i don’t do cable. Reality TV is the devil.
I do not yet believe I can trust in myself to make that judgement call. As stated before, i knew my wife for 15+ years as a friend. If i couldn’t figure her out or see through her in that time, what chance do i have after 1,2,5 years? With time running short i don’t have another 15 to figure it out. Even with all my new found knowledge and approach to understanding how to weed them out, i just can’t be sure because my exwife put on her best face throughout. That’s what made the turn on a dime so unbelievable.
Yeah, I hear ya. FWIW, I dated my fiancee for 6.5 years, and lived with her for close to 2 years prior to proposing. Some of that was circumstances, but some of that was wanting to try and know her from every possible angle, especially from the perspective of day to day living and functioning as part of one household. I don’t care one bit what the statistics say on this (I suspect they have been tortured to confess) but you don’t know someone until you live with them, and face issues like sharing the bathroom, and who wakes up first in the morning, division of labor, etc. But you never know really with absolute certainty. A person could always conceivably change on you. I think the hardest part to assess is how seriously someone takes their commitment especially to your well-being.
Ultimately, many things in life are leaps of faith with some risk/reward calculation. FWIW, I think it is a rational position in today’s society if a guy doesn’t think marriage has rewards worth the risk so I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. All us red pill guys have to choose our own paths….at least the decision is an informed one.
The most important criterion you can apply to choosing a husband is his potential to be an excellent father.
+1000
FWIW, I know this woman…I’ve known her a good number of years now. She is currently pregnant, and the other day the man who got her pregnant and was living with her told her they needed a break and moved out. This man already has children by two other women that he never sees. Its been interesting to me to observe this situation IRL in the context of all the discussions I have online about this stuff.
This is a mid 30s woman, intelligent, highly educated (masters degree), fairly attractive, and for the last year I’ve been wondering what is she doing with this man. To the best of knowledge, she has always wanted marriage and motherhood so from Day 1 of him moving in with her, I’ve thought what the hell is she doing. FWIW, as far as archetypes go, the guy definitely fits more of the alpha badboy than beta provider type. And yes, it is just another single anecdote but to watch this unfold is one more example of women selecting bad men leading to most likely fatherless children.
Wow, this is quite a thread. For whatever the hell it’s worth, I’d like to publically express how happy and grateful I am to have found a guy who is a terrific father to our terrific sons and who had taken a good deal of joy in living that role.
Also, a Happy Father’s Day to all the fathers and incipient fathers who are part of the HUS family.
@Robber
“As a single father (widower) it makes my blood boil to hear single mums claiming credit for being fathers as well as mothers.”
I wouldn’t get too upset about it. It’s just a disengenuous passive-aggressive ploy to attack certain men that these women are angry with. These same women would probably never wish a single or widowed father a Happy Mother’s Day, which wouldn’t make sense either.
” What we need is technological advance rendering women obsolete. Artificial wombs, sex bots etc. The moment you women serve absolutely no useful purpose anymore…is the moment your entire world of entitlement comes crashing down. Personally, I can’t wait to see it.”
Hey, whatever floats your boat, Ghost.
“For whatever the hell it’s worth, I’d like to publically express how happy and grateful I am to have found a guy who is a terrific father to our terrific sons and who had taken a good deal of joy in living that role.”
That’s lovely to hear, J. I too, am extremely lucky to have married my wonderful husband who is also a great and loving father to our two kids.
Like Robber, we celebrate Father’s day in September down my way.
I’d also like to wish all the American, Canadian and English Dads, a very Happy Fathers Day, too!
@The Ghost of a Nice Guy
“What we need is technological advance rendering women obsolete. Artificial wombs, sex bots etc. The moment you women serve absolutely no useful purpose anymore…is the moment your entire world of entitlement comes crashing down. Personally, I can’t wait to see it.”
Then she opens up the greeting card and reads…”Just kidding! Happy Mother’s Day!”
@The Ghost of a Nice Guy
So your future utopia is one in which men (and men alone) are conceived and born in growth vats and spend their lives having sex with f**k droids? Sounds more like a dystopian nightmare! You must be one seriously damaged person to actually desire that.
And speaking of seriously damaged people, I think it’ interesting – and not coincidental – that if you take Ghost’s post and switch the sexes in it, the result is exactly the kind of man-hating screed you’d expect from some radical feminist. Next thing you know he’ll be trying to shoot Andy Warhol.
“In my entire life I have never met an MRA in person.”
I have. He was also an atheist anarcho-capitalist, and all the stereotypes that go with it. :/
The funny thing is when I talk to IRL feminists, I can often get them to agree with the MRA “side” as long as I don’t call it that. You just have to approach them from a position of empathy.
@Scott
“if you take Ghost’s post and switch the sexes in it, the result is exactly the kind of man-hating screed you’d expect from some radical feminist.”
Definitely. Now that I think about it, certain MRA’s and certain extreme feminists would both love to see exo-wombs come to fruition. Maybe they can work together on this, then duke it out in the end to determine who rules the exo-womb.
Ghost better get busy figuring out how to combine two sperm to make viable offspring. The feminists are already one step ahead since it’s been shown that DNA from two eggs can be used to make offspring in a mammalian model (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15103378). And even if you could use only sperm to make offspring, 50% of the time you’d create a female child or a male child, whereas two eggs would always create females…
I don’t know if my parents are the best people to observe relationship wise, hence why i may have issues. I seem to be attracted to the wrong type of woman. Is there a relation? Dunno, tried to ask Olive once to psychoanalyze me. Maybe i’ll make a post on it down the road.
You should read Dogsquat blog he has a wonderful set of tools that helped him to get over his “captain saveaho” complex and he is now with what he calls a mission girl. I think he can help you a lot with this issues.
@CrisisEraDynamo
Thanks for the kind words. As for turning into a bitter feminist, there’s little risk of that. I was opposed to feminism as a movement long before I started blogging. While that’s not the focus of the blog, I’m happy to use it as a platform when there’s a good opportunity.
But I’ve seen a lot of guys with options for casual sex go for the relationship and not look back. I’ve also known guys with options for casual sex who just don’t go there. A lot of cute or handsome betas get hit on for ONSs all the time, but most of them don’t rack up high numbers. They’re not into it. I suppose you would say that makes them alpha, but I’m simply talking about good-looking guys who were raised the same way you were. They definitely get interest from women for casual sex. Several of my kids’ friends are in this category – and I’ve been aware when the guy flatly refuses the hookup because the girl is sketchy or refuses round 2 because he was so disgusted at the end of round 1.
Thinking about the chemical piece, I imagine that there’s a lot of variation among men re their dopamine and vasopressin wiring, which is what flips the emotional switches.
@Megaman
Thanks for that info – the NMP is extremely well respected. That sounds about right to me. I’m willing to bet that most of the commitment avoiders are in the promiscuous 20% – in fact, they may be the 20%.
You’re right – satisfaction levels should tell the story.
I was struck in the post about divorce how many people describe their marriages as very happy. The vast majority.
@Robber
Great to hear from you! Have you relocated to the US?
I understand your anger at that woman’s wishing herself a Happy Father’s Day. I hadn’t thought of it, but you’re right – it negates the father’s role completely. As if society would be perfect if we could just harvest sperm and eliminate men. Ugh, I hope she’s an outlier, and that that view is not widely shared.
I had to delete Ghost’s last comment. Not because it upset me, but because I can’t afford to let HUS serve as a platform for that kind of thinking. The idea of losing one single female reader because of his misogynistic rantings is just not acceptable.
As I said above, if your delivery system is throwing off nothing but loud static and high-pitched squeals, your message is not going to be heard.
@Kathy
Then Ghost will be able to get a date.
I recently commented that some of the MRA blogs are every bit as demented as Pandagon or feministing. It’s the exact same mindset, with crazy shaming of anyone with a question, much less a dissenting view. The tone is mocking and self-congratulatory.
How about a reality show where we put these folks together on a desert island with all sorts of survival challenges and see what happens?
“Then Ghost will be able to get a date.”
Ha ha ha ha ha.. Very true, Sue.
“I had to delete Ghost’s last comment.”
Yeah, well, there is only so much undermining and sabotage that a Koala can bear!
I would certainly have had less patience than you, Susan.
In fact , he wouldn’t have had a ghost of a chance with me.
How many of those men were plumbers?
Yes, but how many are in favor of Title IX and Federally supported “Women Owned Businesses”?
Wanting girls to give you blowjobs does not make you a feminist.
“I recently commented that some of the MRA blogs are every bit as demented as Pandagon or feministing. It’s the exact same mindset, with crazy shaming of anyone with a question, much less a dissenting view.”
But there is a huge difference. The feminists are supported by the police, the court system, politicians and the entire educational establishment, and the MRA’s are not. The feminists are in power, and the MRA’s are not. The MRA’s have legitimate grievances, but the feminists do not. The MRA’s are in the state they are in because they have been traumatized, humiliated and exploited, while the feminists are not (and haven’t been for an entire generation). The MRA’s are marginalized, relegated to the “crazy” corner and shunned, while the feminists are celebrated and glorified by comtempory culture. Given this context, it is hard to justify the view that both groups deserve the same amount of derision.
Ah, but you can’t have one without the other.
@meistergedanken
Regardless of who’s winning the war, negotiation is impossible with people who are literally insane with rage. That insanity may indeed be the result of trauma, humiliation and exploitation, but the inmates need to appoint someone who’s capable of interacting with the outside world. I have never been able to visit any male-centric blog without having my character, intelligence, motives and sex vilified. And that includes showing up with an olive branch – no go. (It’s ironic that some of these extremists call themselves Christian.)
In the nearly four years I’ve been online, I believe the MRM has lost considerable ground and been appropriately marginalized for its rantings. And no, the fact that there’s a feminist site somewhere calling for the extermination of males does not make that OK. Both sides are wallowing in the gutter of each others’ waste.
Ah, but you can’t have one without the other.
Right, but THAT is the secret, not that horny guys are also reading The Feminine Mystique when no one is looking.
They are not feminists, they are just horny.
Right, but they bent over for feminists. And they still will, which is why women have gained so much power. The guys rail on women for thinking with their hindbrains. Hellooooooooooo!
Until HBO comes up with a similarly hip, trendy and cool show and names it “Dads”
the real American Focus will be on “Girls.”
Fatherhood is only valued one weekend in America.
@Susan
Appology accepted.
I think they are rejecting the idea that fathers are unique or needed. Look at the tweet everyone is talking about. There is this idea in our culture that dads are at best buffons and overgrown children (most commericals and sitcoms) or dangerous (most people will refuse to believe your above stats about who commits abuse and will even point out that those 9% of husband could become the abusive ex-husbands some day). I can find you women’s studies studies (and classes that teach them) that claim having a father in the home is worse for children because they use up resources (mother’s time, money) that could be spent on kids and even that lesbian couple are “proven” to be the optimal parenting environment.
Women aren’t thinking about the importance of dads because dads aren’t important. Look at where the growth in single motherhood is: college educated 30-somethings. The majority don’t have kids out of wedlock but they are where the growth market in single motherhood is. That should tell us something about the priorities of women who were in your key demographic ten years ago. Are their younger sisters going to reverse that trend or continue it?
@M3
I’ve been wondering if the marriage strike will be by women, a whole generation of feminists and princesses cutting off their nose to spite their face when they realize they can’t have “Mr. Big”. Aren’t Kate Bollick and Lisa Gottlieb examples of this already?
One thing I find interesting about this is that if you, and those guys, had this “debate” face-to face in an actual living room, I would bet dollar to donuts that they would not be able to say those things to you while actually looking you in the eye. (They could say it to you while both were in the same room, but they would not be able to maintain eye contact.)
What does that have to do with this post? Nothing , really. But, I find it interesting.
Firstly, Susan, thank you so much for acknowledging the vital role fathers perform, both for their children and for society. And I do think it’s very unfair that others use your site to attack women in general, when many (if not most) had little role to.play in creating the mess our society made of relationships and families.
In 2006, my aunts forced me out of our family’s company for displaying a “bad attitude” towards my aunt’s secretary – an exceptionally nasty woman who’d been rotten to me since I was first out of undergrad. About a year later, they offered my old role to my sister – at double the pay, and with the title of vice-president.
A few years after that, my beautiful, ambitious, and extremely dishonest boss managed to get me fired. She embodied the stereotypes of the worst sorts of younger women – entitled, dishonest, and utterly without conscience.
My ex-wife was both unfaithful to me and physically and verbally abusive; in another relationship, a woman physically assaulted me and, when I moved her out of the way to escape, had me arrested.
Most of my bosses are female, even.in finance/accounting. I’ve seen them skip over far more qualified men. Most of my professors in undergrad and b-school “helped” women get grades, interviews, and honors that the rest of us felt they really didn’t deserve.
But I think that my life experiences are not a complete, exhaustive sample.
There are still many good women, strong and successful but still honest and decent, that I may meet someday.
And im very proud of the fact that, while I am now a bit wary, I do not hate them, nor feel that as a group they all deserve punishment.
And I too am very grateful for fathers.
@Herb
Everyone is talking about that tweet because it’s outrageous. Don’t make the mistake of interpreting that as a symbol of what most women feel.
However, I agree that fathers get short shrift in the culture generally. I’ve seen a lot of mentions of stupid dad portrayals in TV and movies. I wonder how that might have been different before the Women’s Movement. I recall lots of shows from the 60s where the dads were admirable men of good character, e.g. Father Knows Best.
@Firepower
I think I saw a preview recently for a movie about young dads hanging out together with the babies in tow. I have no idea whether it’s good, or fair, but it didn’t appear to mock men or disrespect them.
Ah, Susan, personally, I am not on board with this.
I don’t think that they bent over for feminists, I think that they bent over for those that screamed the loudest.
That might be semantics, but I think it is important.
Our political life has moved farther left (with a few tax cuts and even fewer wars, excepted) in all areas: Anti-Racism, Anti-Sexism, Pro-Multiculturalism, etc.
The gains of Feminists moved at the same exact pace as all of the other areas.
Few of these things got grand support from your average 50-hour per week, middle class plumber.
@Ramble
That’s my point – those who shout the loudest and agitate for change often get what they want. Those who go along to get along often wind up getting left out. I’m not saying all men did this by any means. I don’t think anyone foresaw the consequences, including the feminists.
We’re all going to place our bet where we think we have the most to gain personally. Women have already stopped supporting feminism for the most part, but it’s very entrenched. Even as they deplore feminists, they probably enjoy the benefits of the Women’s Movement. It’s certainly true of me.
I see a lot of opining in the manosphere that women’s suffrage needs to be repealed, including from women!!! I think that’s insane. We should be striving for equity, not supremacy of either sex.
I hear you and understand what you are saying, but I am still not on board.
Let’s face it, when certain groups stand up for certain things, it is heartfelt and courageous. When other groups stand up for other things it is hateful and pathetic.
There is a reason why certain people and certain subjects get printed in things like The Atlantic (or NYT, or whatever) and others don’t.
They’ve stopped supporting some things (i.e. they would like to keep their bras) but have continued to support, or, at least, not shout down those that do, other things (i.e. Title IX, massive professional benefits, etc.)
@M3
men will continue to opt out and your site’s goal of getting men and women to marry will fail. You can’t ask us to take a leap of faith anymore.
I dunno. DH and I have already received a couple of invitations to summer weddings and my kid has a couple of wedding gigs lined up. I know people who are expecting kids or have newborns. Life goes o for those who choose to take risks. They just need to be calculated risks.
Title IX allows a mediocre field hockey player to get a full scholarship to Brown, in some cases; federally funded “women owned businesses, HR departments staffed almost exclusively by women – all of these resulted in removing large amounts if economic power from one group and giving it to another.
Fine, but most women are repulsed by the idea of making more money than their husband. The “equality” (supremacy) in the workplace was in no way replicated in the marital SMV.
This resulted in men and fathers being marginalized, and in a lot of single moms or unwilling spinsters.
To ask women to level the playing field is kind of silly; men will have to take back their rights, in education and in the workplace. If they find the courage to do so (and risk being withheld from) it really won’t be pretty.
Fathers will only return when men are treated fairly. Women are unlikely to return most of the preferences they’ve enjoyed; men will just have to take some of their rights back. After all, we granted them in the first place.
@Susan
Everyone here is talking about it because it’s outrageous. I remain less optimistic about others. Given all the “heroic single moms” crap we get even from some parts of the religious right I suspect on average it got more cheers than jeers.
@Susan Walsh
A lot of “Beta” guys avoid casual sex because they’re aware of the risks involved in it …
A co-worker of mine struggles with money even though he has a very good job because he pays over $1800 per month in child-support to his ex-wife; and he rarely gets to see his children. While being in a relationship doesn’t protect you from this, a child born from a casual sexual encounter could cost you $500 to $800 per month for 18 years.
Beyond that, while it has never been my personal experience, lots of guys have been accused of rape after a woman they picked up at a bar/club regrets the encounter; often because it is easier to explain to their boyfriend that this guy raped them than that they’re a slutty drunk.
I see a lot of opining in the manosphere that women’s suffrage needs to be repealed, including from women!!! I think that’s insane. We should be striving for equity, not supremacy of either sex.
That’s some insane stuff (especially from the women who want to be treated as big children), but I think we need to keep reminding ourselves that the net is an aggregator of people who vent opinions that can’t be vented in public generally. IRL, I meet no MRAs–and very few feminists. Even among the parents of young career women in my circle, the parents of the one women’s studies major merit a repressed smirk.
Until HBO comes up with a similarly hip, trendy and cool show and names it “Dads” the real American Focus will be on “Girls.”
Didn’t Ray Romano recently do a series that focused on four middle-aged dads?
Beyond that, while it has never been my personal experience, lots of guys have been accused of rape after a woman they picked up at a bar/club regrets the encounter; often because it is easier to explain to their boyfriend that this guy raped them than that they’re a slutty drunk.
There’s been so much talk in the ‘sphere regarding teaching girls not to put themselves in compromising positions. Maybe we should teach boys the same lessons. It’s not smart for young people of either sex to get drunk in sexual situatiuons, especially with strangers. I imagine that in the light of day regrets and sketchy recollections of what actually happened the night before are quite common.
@ Susan:
Do you know what the title is? I want to google it to see.
Didn’t Ray Romano recently do a series that focused on four middle-aged dads?
Yes, it looked boring.
Dads should be hoping for an equivalent to “Girls” where it shows them with their flab (pedestalizing women, having their daughters keep secrets from them [while telling their mothers, who also choose not to share this information with the father], losing attraction to their wives, etc.), and all.
Maybe we should teach boys …
… not to trust the Justice system.
With regards to male support for feminism I read about a study that found young men today, especially educated young men, where much more critical of feminism and tended to claim it had gone too far. FOr the most part it seems to me the men I meet in real life buy 80% of the standard mainstream feminist dogma though. But in online forums not related to the manosphere most of the guys are now extremely critical of feminism.
Frost had a very moving fathers day post:
http://www.freedomtwentyfive.com/2012/06/a-letter-to-fathers/
Thank you for wishing me a happy Father’s Day. I had a wonderful Father’s Day. My entire family attended my church with me (we have his and her churches in our family
), then we went out to a wonderful little French Provençal place the rest of the city hasn’t found about yet. My daughter discovered it and my son took a group of friends there so it came highly recommended.
Getting young women to recognize which young men are likely to become good fathers is an uphill task. There is not usually a one-to-one correspondence between men who would likely be good fathers and the men young women select to father their children. “Baby daddies” seem to be quite the rage right now.
Interestingly, in the past month, my elder daughter attended two bridal showers for girls in her social circle, one baby shower for a sigle mother, and consoled another girl who just found out she had been rendered sterile by an STD contracted by a chance sexual encounter when she was 14. My daughter had been in school with these girls since the 8th grade, and it was interesting to hear her describe to me the different trajectories their lives were likely to take.
After that, we watched Sorority Wars together, kind of a “Mean-Girls-go-to-college”. It was all about women behaving badly, so the men came off quite well. There was one fraternity lunkhead whose first encounter with the protagonist was pure Roissy-level douchbaggery. The film was interesting in that it showed the protagonist being attracted to him rather than the nice-guy pledge who rescued her from the trepidations of the manly asshole.
Later on, though, the douchebag started revealing his “boyfriend-material” side little by little. Once he started this strategy, the ‘nice guy’ didn’t stand a chance. I asked my daughter if she didn’t think he (the douchebag) did this as a conscious strategy to capture the protagonist’s heart. She shook her head. “Boys don’t think that far ahead. Besides, you always need a little assy-ness to keep things interesting, just like you and Mom.”
Oh, and thank you for the dad support Susan. Much appreciated!
How about a reality show where we put these folks together on a desert island with all sorts of survival challenges and see what happens?
I don’t watch reality TV but I will watch that. Just to see what this two people would tell each other.
I’ve been wondering if the marriage strike will be by women, a whole generation of feminists and princesses cutting off their nose to spite their face when they realize they can’t have “Mr. Big”. Aren’t Kate Bollick and Lisa Gottlieb examples of this already?
I do believe that to a point there is a big part of this, the thing is that most men don’t write long pieces regretting their choice while women love nothing more than whine about things they did to themselves, just to have the new generation on the same way whine about the fact that they don’t want to hear that and that will never regret their choices like that, except they will… wash, rinse, repeat.
Few of these things got grand support from your average 50-hour per week, middle class plumber.
Isn’t this true of pretty much everything? Most movements start in the middle class and then spread when they promise a better life condition. Men fed up with courting rules and the restriction on their sexuality as consequences were sold a bill of false goods telling them that the only reason women were not having sex like men was “patriarchy” I’m pretty sure that even those plumbers don’t know the truth of hypergamy and they would probably still believe that they have a chance as long as the women “are made happy” with new rules to protect them. In my circle of friends they still believe the whole “women make less money than men” and I have a friend that is raising his son to be “a feminist” he has lived all his life here, hubby knows a bit more because I feed him red pill in small doses but he is not actively spreading it to anyone, but I really don’t think the common man is anywhere near as informed as we crazy people interested on the “underbelly of the beast are”, YMMV.
As to what men and women want. I think we can override our instinctual agenda quite well with logic. If I had`t become aware of the manosphere I would`t have wanted much change with regards to casual sex. I want a relationship eventually anyway but would gladly forsake the possibility of casual sex for a return to a system that produces more relationship stability. The manosphere is full of players arguing for that and women arguing for the same. Both sexes seem able to use logic to favor a different system. Exactly what percentage are I don`t know.
Isn’t this true of pretty much everything? Most movements start in the middle class and then spread when they promise a better life condition.
Did you mean that they start in the middle class or the UPPER middle class?
I really don’t think the common man is anywhere near as informed as we crazy people interested on the “underbelly of the beast are”
That’s right.
@Wudang
Educated men would (likely) be much more critical of modern feminism because they would (probably) have far more encounters with it. I remember in my second year of University my Computer Science professor would scroll back the over-head projector to display the notes from the Women’s Studies class that was right before ours, and we would spend the first 5 minutes of class making fun of the bizzarre hateful propaganda that passed as knowledge in that field.
Peppermint, that is great. That would make for a great scene in a TV show
Susan – Thanks for the post. I honestly feel most of the time that the only people who really care how good a father I am is my children, and they really won’t care until after they are out of my house and on their own. It’s sad, because as the quote from Mark W. (Who knew Marky Mark would grow up?!) being a father is the most important “job” a man can ever have. But, just as I’ve learned to only do nice things for people because I want to, being the best father I can be simply has to be done for my own happiness. And I’m not saying my SO doesn’t appreciate my fatherly abilities. To be sure, she knows I’ve willingly and voluntarily taken responsibility for being a “father figure” for her children, and she knows that I did the same for my daughter. But even with that appreciation and respect, she still really doesn’t understand it, and probably never will.
It’s funny. My oldest just graduated from HS and is looking to start college in the fall. We were chatting and I mentioned how I feel so much less responsible now that she is an adult, and she looked at me kinda oddly. So, I explained to her that even though I will always BE there for her, I no longer feel responsible for her decisions in life. And, as an aside, I can now enjoy her for the awesome person she is without the added layers of duty and responsibility, and after a few moments of silence, she looked at me and said “I think I get it.” And I said to her, “baby girl, come back to me after your first born starts pre-school, and we can compare notes again.”
But it occurred to me after that even when she has her own children she will never truly “get it”. You see, for women being a mother is a very natural thing. They carry the baby, birth the baby, and always have that deep physical connection. Fathers don’t start with that added boost, and in many ways I felt like an outsider to my own children sometimes. Being a father to me is much like being a husband: it is a daily choice to simply do what is best for someone else, even at the cost of your own happiness if required. And no matter how much women may feel like they understand it (and I’m not discounting motherhood at all here, but just like everything else between the sexes, the role of parent isn’t the same) they will never truly get how it feels for a man to make that decision every day of his life. And the truth is, up until my little girl graduated from HS this year, I really hadn’t given it any thought. It was literally the day I woke up and remembered that she is on her own that it hit me: I’ve been making that decision for the last 16 years without a single thought that I had any other option. THAT to me is what commitment means. Not that you’ll stick it out. But that you have no choice BUT to stick it out. I realize that it isn’t in the least romantic, and makes the entire concept of commitment pretty damn scary. But, it SHOULD be pretty damn scary.
@Susan
This may be nit-picking, and for that I apologize. But Father Knows Best is sort of a counter-example to the point you wanted to make. Robert Young’s character was good natured and upstanding, but he was also a bit of a fool. It was always the mother (Jane Wyatt) who was really in charge, you recall.
And being the overly-sensitive curmudgeon, I want to say it’s ever thus. From the male POV, it’s extremely hard to find any male character in the popular culture who isn’t a buffoon or a fool or under the gentle control of some woman. Even Superman falls under this category now, and yes, it’s endemic. Man as accidental hero, well, maybe. Man as hero? Never. Not since Atticus Finch. Now we get Charlie Sheen as Charlie Harper. Happy Father’s Day.
I was taken aback too by the reactions yesterday in this thread. But you know, given what the general propaganda is showing us routinely, I guess the reaction shouldn’t be so unexpected.
Hey! My first real rant!
Oops. Sorry. HTML end-tag failure.
Who knew Marky Mark would grow up?
He didn’t.
He banged every hot chick in Hollywood (I think he may have had the greatest run in Hollywood history), finally got one of them pregnant. Then did it again. And then again. And then, after the fourth pregnancy, they got married. All the while claiming that he is guided by his devout Catholicism.
Personally, I don’t care. But let’s not pretend that he was really, really interested in providing a really stable environment for his children.
@ Mule Chewing Briars:
Omg!!! That’s horrifying
And just really sad…
Excellent idea, save for the risk of the participants surviving.
I know the anger of which you speak. Fresh out of school and desperate to get into the legal drug game, I worked for a certain Big Pharma company in the manufacturing plant. It was on the night shift, and a lot of the women who worked there were Black and Latina single mothers in the 28-40 age demographic. I would say 80-85% of these women had major anger issues with their children’s fathers, despite anything they did. (In one case, the woman had been arrested for beating her baby daddy’s tail, and she still had the nerve to complain.) It made for an awkward environment at times, because they seemed to take their anger out on anyone male, especially if they didn’t have kids. I heard of a lot of “you don’t have responsibilities! You don’t have anything to worry about! You aren’t a real man!” What a bunch of pieces of work!
Joe, John Goodman in Roseanne. One of the few.
Another one who basically fits was the father in That 70′s Show (the head writer was a devout Protestant).
Ward Cleaver was a good father, and not bossed around by June.
Ramble – “Personally, I don’t care. But let’s not pretend that he was really, really interested in providing a really stable environment for his children.”
I’m not a fan of him actually, and did a bad job at saying so with my failed sarcasm.
But, that quote is still true, even if it came from his mouth.
You don’t have anything to worry about! You aren’t a real man!
My absolute favorite way to respond is to look them right in the eye, and, with complete sincerity, say “I am not a real man.” Maintain eye contact until they break. No smiling, no smirking.
Hood rats need a lot of dominance.
But, that quote is still true, even if it came from his mouth.
I would clarify that our most important job is in choosing who is going to be the mother/father to our children. The follow-up job of the actual mothering/fathering dove-tails that work.
@Ramble
Having been hit with that a few times I’ve responded with, “No, I’m smarter than that.”
Had to do so, because in a lot of ways I still feel like the fact I’m not and never will be a father (and not just a sperm donor but a father) does reflect badly on my manhood.
Ramble – “My absolute favorite way to respond is to look them right in the eye, and, with complete sincerity, say “I am not a real man.” Maintain eye contact until they break. No smiling, no smirking.”
I’ve actually come back with the following: “You want a real man? Go make me a sandwich!” That serves two purposes
1. it REALLY pisses them off
2. it lets them know I don’t give a rat’s ass what they think about my manhood.
If I’m forced to listen to that crap, I figure I might as well at least get some entertainment value from it. Thankfully I don’t deal with “people” much these days.
Herb – “Had to do so, because in a lot of ways I still feel like the fact I’m not and never will be a father (and not just a sperm donor but a father) does reflect badly on my manhood.”
I call bullshit. It is NOT a reflection on your any anyone’s “manhood”. It is a reflection of just how difficult it is becoming to find a woman you WANT to be the mother of your children.
@Ramble, @Escoffier, those are pretty good examples, but I don’t think that Red (That 70s Show) was more a cartoon too. It’s okay there. They all were cartoons.
Another one was Sheriff Andy Taylor, Opey’s father.
The John Goodman character was not a cartoon, though, he was married to a whale.
I think most of the good fathers on TV are on black comedy shows, even if they are goofy at times the lady also was shown wrong. Cal from Family Matters and Phil from the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, also Tiana’s father was her inspiration and so sweet. I think is because making fun of white man is PC while is the opposite for minorities. Of course I had seen the opposite argument from the Huxtables patriarch, but I didn’t watched the show, so I might be wrong. Feel free to chime in for the ones that had seen it.
I think is because making fun of white man is PC while is the opposite for minorities.
Ya think?
Deleting comments rather than discussing its content, yeah I expected nothing else from you, Susan.
That’s your style: suppress debate of issues that you find “worrying” and to which you have no rational answer. How womanly of you to react so unprofessionally.
I could point out the irony of writing an article lauding the role of fathers and purporting to reach out to men and then lambasting a father who came here to debate.
But then hypocrisy comes natural to you, doesn’t it, Susan?
@Ramble
The show might well have been boring. I never watched it. OTOH, I doubt a show on the lives of four suburban moms would have been much more interesting.
As to the remark on the justice system, you’re quite the wag today.
Nonetheless, sex, alcohol and strangers IS a dangerous combo. The unintended consequences of picking up a stranger really argue against the hook-up culture as being of benefit to either sex.
OTOH, I doubt a show on the lives of four suburban moms would have been much more interesting.
Give Lena Dunham a few years and then unleash her talent once again.
Nonetheless, sex, alcohol and strangers IS a dangerous combo.
And some people have the Powers-That-Be on their side, and some don’t. My sons will definitely know the real score.
@andronicus
Oh, I don’t know. I’ve opposed Title IX from the start. It would be interesting to have a referendum on that.
Give Lena Dunham a few years and then unleash her talent once again.
Actually, I would find her take on marriage and motherhood interesting.
And some people have the Powers-That-Be on their side, and some don’t. My sons will definitely know the real score.
If and when you actually sons, you’ll do best to help them avoid trouble. I can’t imagine any circumstances where a decent parent would advise advise a child, male or female, to get drunk and screw a stranger.
@Peppermint
I agree with everything you mentioned re risks of casual sex. I’ve been witness to at least one false rape charge case. The daughter of a friend of mine came forward to complain that her roommate had leveled a false charge for what had been consensual sex. She was suspended for “collaborating” with the accused.
I also know a young man who got a girl pregnant on a random hookup when the condom broke. Despicably, he has no involvement, financial or otherwise in the child’s life. I learned of this when a girl he’d been dating for three years in college found out this had happened during his freshman year with a girl from another school. Most young women would abort, but this girl was a survivor of Hodgkin’s and knew her fertility was not guaranteed. I am certain he does not share this information with anyone – my guess is he’ll get married without telling the truth.
It’s hard to understand why young people use condoms only half the time during intercourse.
I can’t imagine any circumstances where a decent parent would advise advise a child, male or female, to get drunk and screw a stranger.
No, but to assume that your sons are never going to drink is ridiculous. And, you don’t need to be drunk to feel the wrath of the courts (if only a quarter of the stories on Men’s Rights sites are to be believed).
@J
Especially with the new relaxation of the standard of proof in campus sexual assault cases. There are already families of accused young men bringing lawsuits.
When your sons reach college age, it’s definitely worth putting the fear of God into them on this point if you can.
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