Happy Father’s Day to all the men who nurture, teach, coach, raise, support and love their children.
You are heroes. Without you, society falls apart.
From David Blankenhorn‘s Fatherless America:
- Approximately 30% of all American children are born into single-parent homes, and for the black community, that figure is 68%;
- Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug andalcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics.
- Over half of all children living with a single mother are living in poverty, a rate 5 to 6 times that of kids living with both parents;
- Child abuse is significantly more likely to occur in single parent homes than in intact families;
- 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census;
- 72% of adolescent murderers grew up without fathers. 60% of America’s rapists grew up the same way according to a study by D. Cornell (et al.), in Behavioral Sciences and the Law;
- 63% of 1500 CEOs and human resource directors said it was not reasonable for a father to take a leave after the birth of a child;
- 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes according to the National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools;
- 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes according to a report in Criminal Justice & Behavior;
- In single-mother families in the U.S. about 66% of young children live in poverty;
- 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes;
- Children from low-income, two-parent families outperform students from high-income, single-parent homes. Almost twice as many high achievers come from two-parent homes as one-parent homes according to a study by the Charles F. Kettering Foundation.
- 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes according to a study by the Center for Disease Control;
- Of all violent crimes against women committed by intimates about 65% were committed by either boy-friends or ex-husbands, compared with 9 % by husbands;
- Girls living with non-natal fathers (boyfriends and stepfathers) are at higher risk for sexual abuse than girls living with natal fathers;
- Daughters of single mothers are 53% more likely to marry asteenagers, 111% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have a premarital birth and 92% more likely to dissolve their own marriages.
- A large survey conducted in the late 1980s found that about 20% of divorced fathers had not seen his children in the past year, and that fewer than 50% saw their children more than a few times a year.
- Juvenile crime, the majority of which is committed by males, has increased six-fold since 1992;
- In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed “greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households,” according to a study published in the Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology.
- The Scholastic Aptitude Test scores have declined more than 70 points in the past two decades; children in single-parent families tend to score lower on standardized tests and to receive lower grades in school according to a Congressional Research Service Report.
The most important criterion you can apply to choosing a husband is his potential to be an excellent father.
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I disagree. I think people are stupid, and impulsive, and unreliable. I would love to see some numbers, but I find it hard to believe that many whoops pregnancies are actually planned. It doesn’t make sense to me. But I have not studied the underlying economics, I’ll admit.
@Passer_by
TBH the financial burdon on the taxpayer isn’t my main concern, I’m just saying that ‘just getting the state to pay’ is not a victimless crime.
And I’m commenting from the UK, the state makes this a best (if amoral) choice for some girls. The stats on how the subsequent kids turn out (drugs, criminal record, intelligence etc) are not encouraging.
I’d prefer to be not having the little tykes born in the first place, rather than debating who pays.
No, because that’s just evidence one woman was interested enough to marry him. Also, it casts doubts on the man’s judgment. Either he was unworthy of marriage or he married an unworthy woman. I’m not saying that is literally true, but I do believe that’s how women see divorced men.
I know that for the women in my groups, who are in their early – mid 20s, divorce and kids are both absolute dealbreakers. In fact, one girl recently started dating a guy who is 30. When he invited her over to dinner, she took a look around for pics of kids. And when he mentioned that his cousin was the first of his generation to get married (this summer) she was totally relieved, because she likes him.
I do think that this requirement weakens as female SMV declines.
Susan – “But Ted, he can do that now. He can reduce the risk to very close to zero right now. ”
At the risk of sounding like I’m tooting my own horn (pun intended!) I’ve had my fair share of broken condoms to KNOW that shit happens. Yes, I minimized MY chances of getting royally screwed over by a woman by ONLY having sex inside of LTRs, but I still took that chance. If we are going to blatantly agree that no one is going to wait until marriage to have sex, then we can’t turn around and blame men when shit happens. I know a guy who’s GF (I would have called her a FWB, but I guess they weren’t cool with what that implied…) swore she was on BC, but ended up pregnant all the same. I’m not saying both people don’t know the risks and decide for themselves, but in the end those risks aren’t distributed in a fair and even manner. THAT is my issue. If it can’t be equally fair to everyone, it should be equally UNfair to everyone. Right now the system is generally unfair to men, and favorable for women. If you can’t see that, then I really do think you are far to involved in the UMC bubble. Seriously, spend some real time in poor communities and see if your attitudes don’t change a bit. There is just SO much stacked against these men and women, I can honestly understand why so few make it out.
Susan, much of it will depend on how you define “planned”.
Re: Dating divorced men
The trepidation for girls like me, in part, is “Where are they now? Are they a good match for a relationship right now?”
Divorce is like a death of kinds. I believe it can be absolutely soul-shattering and beyond painful. I don’t think you can just snap your fingers and recover immediately. Those wounds will take a LOT of time to heal.
So, from the girl’s perspective, there are a lot of added factors that only make it more difficult:
*Ex-wife: What’s going on with her? She’s probably not going to like you very much.
*Kids, if has them: THEY COME FIRST. Are you ready to come second?
*$$$: If his finances are in trouble from divorce, he needs to straighten them out before getting into a relationship
*Gun-shy: It may take him a long, long time to be oriented towards marriage again
This is a lot to deal with, from the girl’s perspective. I think you have to be very judicious.
Just1X, I agree with you about subsidizing single motherhood and state payouts. Such things don’t happen in China, because each additional child past the first costs the family cash money, even if the family is quite poor. The Chinese government actually made 2 trillion yuan since 1980 collecting these payments called social-maintenance fees or SMF. I was born after 1980, so I was part of the single-child policy generation.
This is a difference of political philosophy between the East and the West, but strictness vs. freedom and the impact on the poor has some interesting consequences. In China it seems like the poor are trying to work as hard as they can and make as much money as they can, often working 80 hour weeks! There, the poor are seen as indentured servants who have few rights and are to be exploited. While in the West it seems like the poor are seen as degenerate, lazy, living off taxpayer dollars, and part of the criminal element.
I do not think either scenario is ideal. China is not a great place to live for most people (as Susan’s son can attest to after firsthand experience). The current state of affairs in the UK and US seems like the lower class mentality of out-of-wedlock births, freeloading and shrugging off responsibility is spreading upwards and infecting middle class as well. I think taking away the monetary incentives for middle class women and threatening to throw them into the lower class MAY be a deterrent. But that is all theoretical. It most likely will not come to pass.
“I find it hard to believe that many whoops pregnancies are actually planned
Susan, much of it will depend on how you define “planned”.”
If by “planned” you mean women simply don’t take BC and let fate run its course, then I would say around here MANY whoops pregancies are planned. You see, to many of these women, a baby (or another baby) may or may not happen, but they don’t necessarily care either way. If not, they got to have sex and get whatever else they wanted from that particular man. If a pregnancy occurs, she now has one more man to have the state go after to collect more assistance. To her, it is a win/win: she gets what she wants, and possibly gets another income stream.
Again, you really should step out of the UMC lifestyle for awhile. There are FAR more poor than UMC/rich, and they are multiplying VERY fast.
@Just1X
I guess that explains why I don’t get it. I can’t imagine making that decision singly unless I were using a sperm bank.
@Ted D
Ted, I’m not contradicting anything you’ve said. But how is it even possible to see a baby as an :”income stream”? Babies are so INCREDIBLY expensive!
Again, not disagreeing– only trying to understand. I was talking about this with my dad and brother on Father’s Day. Isn’t it some amount like a couple hundred bucks in food stamps and some section 8 housing? Is there more to “welfare” than this?
Even if the birth is paid for by the state, kids are like a black hole that sucks money. Diapers, clothes, food, daycare, toys, activities– I am completely neglecting education stuff, as that doesn’t seem to be a value. Even if you are totally frugal I don’t see how they wouldn’t make life
more difficult/expensive.
Where is all this money coming from, and is it really that much?!
@Just1X
How did English women get to be such loose gooses?
Susan – “I guess that explains why I don’t get it. I can’t imagine making that decision singly unless I were using a sperm bank.”
Projection on your part. You assume all women are moral and just so they wouldn’t “use” a man to get pregnant. Some do, repeatedly to different men in fact. Cruise around the public housing sometime and see how many women have children to multiple different men, NONE of which were ever a legal spouse, and most of which probably never even lived with the mother.
@Jackie
“Gun-shy”
My biggest lesson was to never put your own happiness in the hands of somebody else, at least to the extent of making life worth living. That level of trust is gone in me. Captain Capitalism commented on ‘MGTOW vs WGTOW’, while he goes further than I would, I agree with much that he wrote (and he never married!).
I believe that it’s men’s suicide rate after divorce that rises sharply (or much more sharply than women’s). As I’m going to leave that on the anecdotal level you can take it or leave it. I’m firmly of the belief that male atheist me was harder hit by the divorce than ‘little miss christian’, but then I think that I’m more of a christian than many christians (by deed, if not by belief).
anyway, cheers (the sun is over the yard arm, and the wine unleashed)
Condoms alone are not a good form of birth control! Breaking condoms should freak people out about STDs, not pregnancy. 60% of women are on the pill. IUDs are popular. I was actually quite responsible with a diaphragm back in the day – a real pain. Shoot some spermicide up there.
Again, we’re talking 30 seconds tops. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? If you don’t know a woman well enough to know whether she’s a liar, you should not have sex. Honestly, I feel like what the guys here are really trying to do is reserve the right to have no-strings sex. Now you know there is no such thing.
Jackie – “Ted, I’m not contradicting anything you’ve said. But how is it even possible to see a baby as an :”income stream”? Babies are so INCREDIBLY expensive!”
It is the fact that these women have nothing to lose now, and KNOW that the daddystate will take care of them and their kids. They get housing, food stamps, medical care, and although the system was changed to minimize the “profit” from popping out tons of kids, it can’t be completely eliminated without literally sentencing these children to a slow and painful death of starvation and neglect. The way to stop this is to STOP HAVING KIDS, not figure out how to pay for them afterwards. But, I still see single mothers having more and more babies. I honestly don’t know how they afford it all, but I know the vast majority of them are on assistance. Of course, this doesn’t take into account illegal ways these people make money. Drug sales of course, but I know of a few folks that “sell” their food stamps for .50 on the dollar to BUY drugs. Their kids go without decent food, but they have their crack to smoke.
It really does make me sick.
Right but we were discussing the lure of single motherhood, like it’s the brass ring or something.
Susan, first, the numbers simply tell against that. I mean, close to 50% of babies born in this country are illegitimate. It’s not 50% yet but it’s over 40% but let’s just say 40%. There were 4,130,665 babies born in the US in 2011 according to the CDC. 40% of that is 1,652,266. You can’t honestly believe that there were 1,652,266 “oops” pregancies in one year, in one country–a country moreover in which birth control is ubiquitous and cheap (Sandra Fluke notwithstanding).
But then we have actually testimony. Kay Hymowitz (a much despised figure in the manosphere) and Heather MacDonald have actually gone into underclass neighborhoods and interviewed single moms about their choices. Their answers make it clear that most of their kids were not accidents. Their reasoning tracks almost exactly with the blog comment (from a woman) that the hell hound posted somewhere recently.
@JustPlainAwesome
Just1X, your ex-wife made the biggest mistake of her entire life by hurting you.
I respect British reserve and stoicism far too much to gush over how awesome you are– you charm, wit and intelligence is obvious even in an online format. And suffice it to say, you are definitely more Christ-like than many “Christians” I’ve observed.
I do not expect to change your mind or beliefs. I only hope that if one of your “Bond girls” is truly awesome to see your amazing worth, so that you may let yourself trust another person again.
Just1, I lost SO MUCH when my ex-fiance cheated on me: My scholarship, my plans, my lease, my trust in others… Being gossiped about and pitied was just a bonus. (Okay, that was lame sarcasm!)
I just refuse to believe my story is going to end with me and 89 cats. Somehow there’s got to be a better ending than never trusting anyone again. And I hope it’s OK if I believe in the same for you too, James Bond of the MRAs.
@Susan
if I have a baby ”it has to love me”
if I have a baby I get my own flat
if I have a baby I get more benefits
no baby I’ll be living with my family forever
not going to get a job
Krystal and Chardonnay have got babies
if I ave a babee peeple ave to respect me – i’ll be a muvver, innit
Ted seems to have the issue covered AFAICS
@Jackie
I can’t stop that level of positive thought (however misguided!).
Take care of yourself, I’m old(er) and pretty independent of spirit anyway (before and since), hope it all works out. Being here is probably helpful
Cheers (off to eat and hang out)
and how much more we would enjoy a convertible instead of another kid.
Heh hubby keeps telling me that we could have a Lamborghini instead of my ideal family of four, it won’t work with me maybe you should offer your SO that :p
It is in this scenario where the state allows 2 people committing the same sexual act with the same level of liability to have completely different outcomes based on gender alone.
You mean like if they both get drunk and have sex the man can be easily accused or rape while the woman doesn’t? Crazy talk that doesn’t happe :p
Susan, single motherhood must at least be PERCEIVED as being desirable by a whole lot of women, or else we would not have an illegitimacy rate that is approaching 50% (and that, in some communities, is well over that and has been for decades).
Yes there had been a huge campaign to discredit marriage and paint single mothers as “heroes” for the longest time, how do you think the middle class started to consider having children OOW an aceptable alternative to marriage? How many times any woman had been praised for both securing a husband and having children within the marriage and keeping her marriage intact vs the single mother that raised a kid alone to become let’s say a president? It does looks like single mothers get a lot of credit nowadays and is easy to hide on the label any inability to find and keep a worthy partner, YMMV.
You may not exactly be looking to get pregnant, but when it happens — well, is it really all bad? Lots of others have done it before you. In fact, in your neighborhood, girls who have babies out of wedlock are becoming the norm.
Cosign this. Single mothers don’t start with the pregnancy test they already have the mentality to deal with it specially in an environment like that. I know at least three that were pretty much forgetting the BC before breaking up with their up to no good “hook ups” because they decided it was time and there was sperm available they might take it and deal with it later than wait for a second prospect because chances are he will be as bad as the last one anyway. Is a vicious circle.
This is a lot to deal with, from the girl’s perspective. I think you have to be very judicious.
Well I will add that dealing with a crazy ex-wife is not attractive and in my country is not uncommon for ex-wives being moved to FWB meaning that if she is single and horny calling the ex to talk about the kids and end up having sex with him even if he is already dating another woman is quite common. Too common to risk it IMO.
Also there is a different bond when both of you are starting from the same place, first marriage, first pregnancy…the women I know paired up with experienced men usually are excited while their SO are pretty much “yawn being there done that” is not a big deal but if is important for you to start fresh with a man is something to consider….reason to be more proactive on finding your man before someone else’s does *coughhintcough*
I think taking away the monetary incentives for middle class women and threatening to throw them into the lower class MAY be a deterrent. But that is all theoretical. It most likely will not come to pass.
I actually don’t think there is a choice not to, if you add that we are on the verge of no replacement levels and that the productive classes are not the ones providing the numbers of productive members of society that are going to replace them and they will have to pay both for a growing lower class and the huge amount of Boomers retiring I don’t think the economy will be there to support the system as it is. Something is going to give probably in less than 30 years and I don’t think welfare will be there. I’m glad we are getting prepared for zombieapocalypse because I think we are heading there like it or not, YMMV
Susan -” Right but we were discussing the lure of single motherhood, like it’s the brass ring or something.”
When you are an 18 yo woman living with your crack addicted single mom and your 7 other younger siblings, single motherhood IS a brass ring. It gives her a free home and qualifies her for assistance. The reality is most don’t wait until they are 18 to get pregnant.
<blockquoteYour argument does not sufficiently account for this reality, in my view. The level of parental investment is starkly unequal, both before and after birth. As I’ve said repeatedly, even if a father contributes child support, the lion’s share of the resources will still be provided by the mother.
My big contention is that I don’t see you using the biology argument consistently, only in instances when it benefits women. If you were really invested in natural biology taking place, you’d be opposed to men paying child support, because that’s not natural.
But you’ve been enthusiastically supportive of child support. Why?
It really does seem that most women believe: What’s best for the mother > What’s best for the child > What’s best for the father.
With that prevailing attitude, it’s no wonder that more and more men are hopping on board with the idea that father’s aren’t important. They certainly aren’t valued.
And a male birth control pill would take 2 seconds tops. It would actually be easier for men to do than all the other forms of bc that you’ve mentioned.
And unlike condoms, they wouldn’t have to worry about using bc correctly in the heat of the moment or while drunk.
@Jimmy
I wasn’t arguing that point, I was asking why all the argument about financial servitude when it’s very, very easy to prevent pregnancy, even now.
@Ted D
But was pregnancy the goal? Or is this just irresponsible and impulsive behavior?
Starting your weekend early I see
The welfare state as we know it and its culture of dependency was first introduced in the UK. It’s hardly surprising that its long-term dysgenic, pathological consequences are the most apparent there.
I realize that you weren’t, but my experience in real life is that most girls become extremely uncomfortable with the possibility of men having their own birth control pill. SayWhat’s response in this thread is pretty typical with what I’ve seen.
I agree completely that it’s very easy to prevent pregnancy, and that both men and women should take all the steps possible if they don’t wish to raise a child. But that doesn’t mean that the laws that govern what happens post-pregnancy are just, or shouldn’t be changed.
Simply focusing on prevention alone would be like telling black people in the 50s “Just don’t live in cities that have segregation.” If everyone took that mindset, the system never would have been fixed. But it was the people speaking out (both black and white) about the injustice that got the ball rolling for later activism.
The other side of your example is: Why do women argue for abortion on demand when it’s very easy to prevent pregnancy?
I hope I don’t sound angry or upset here, because I’m not… I’m just trying to get people thinking about an issue in a way they may not have considered previously.
@Susan
“Condoms alone are not a good form of birth control! Breaking condoms should freak people out about STDs, not pregnancy.”
Just thought I’d point this out.
Your claim is that BC is easy. Your forget the ‘for women’ part.
Condoms are the ONLY form of male BC and as you said extremely ineffective.
From this, for a man to avoid unwanted pregnancy is either to go with abstinence of… low and behold… enter a committed relationship with a trustworthy women.
The first just ain’t fun.
The second is Team Women screaming quite loudly.
Women get to have NSA sex without consequence (via abortion). So do men.
—————————————————–
Now one more thing.
You left a somewhat flase comment above.
You mentioned you would never consider having a child without a joint discussion therefore it was a joint decision.
Thats not the case. At any point you can go against the other persons wishes and its legal.
The discussion may have been joint but the decision is ultimately yours.
—————————————————–
Last.
On male BC.
I actually enjoy talking about this one (more from a nerd perspective) and I can only add anecdotal evidence.
Female responses range from dismissive to outright, full fledged anger and of course the occasional ‘its impossible’.
Not saying its representative but your the only woman I have ever in my entire life heard support male BC.
I find that so weird! What reasons did they give for being against it?
Ha! Just saw this on Pinterest, and it made me think of this discussion:
http://pinterest.com/pin/60587557457332687/
You’re going to have to make some concessions on the male birth control, Susan. Children concerns both parents, not one. You mentioned narcissist and manipulative traits and their ability to fool appearances. Women can have those traits too, so your advice to be selective about your partner isn’t always bullet proof.
Condoms are not extremely ineffective. Perfect use of condoms has a very low pregnancy rate. Withdrawal and rhythm methods also have very high effectiveness if you can use them correctly.
All women should get Nuvarings.
Susan – what other forms of birth control do men have besides condoms? And do you really think young guys know half the girls they are having sex with well enough to know if they are honest?
If I didn’t know better, I would think you are arguing for no strings sex for women. And yes, we all know HERE there is no such thing.
I’ve been reading this thread for the last couple of days, and I promised myself I’d stay quiet for the simple reason that it seemed like Susan already had enough pissed off guys to deal with, and I didn’t want to pile on. But as a guy (maybe one of the only people here, other than Ted) from the LMC, I can attest that there are women “down here” who DO get pregnant simply for the check.
After high school I got a job at a convenience store to save up money for college, and I got to know a LOT of single mothers on welfare. And on three separate occasions I had different girls tell me they were planning to have another kid because they needed more money.
The thing is, it’s not a great life. But neither is working a job for barely above minimum wage, which is what these girls would be looking at if they had chosen to get a job.
The truth is, most people in the lower middle class are barely scraping by these days, and a young girl from that economic class can either choose to get a job working fifty hours a week, in a job they hate, for a boss they hate, where customers are gonna’ treat them like crap, or they can have a kid, stay at home all day and watch TV, and live roughly the same lifestyle.
And by the way, not ONE of those girls were the least bit ashamed or embarrassed about what they were doing.
Royale With Cheese burgered the fuck out:
“Do you study Biology or do any lab research? I love the information you contribute. You always take the words right out of my mouth.”
________________________________
I’m just a dumbass ambulance driver most of the time. I study biochem here and there, and do some lab-monkey bullshit for some eggheads once in awhile. I work at an urgent care (rarely), and do some volunteer work at a free clinic when I’m feeling guilty, too.
Gotta get to medschool before this ghetto ‘medic job kills me. Still a few years to go.
Are you an agar jockey of some type?
Ted Sed:
“I now have several guns in the house, and am in the process of getting a permit to carry. Anyone that walks into my house uninvited will be facing the business end of a gun and the Castle Doctrine.”
______________________________________________
May I humbly suggest this firearm?
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26
I have one in a nice scabbard on my side of the bed. The first round in the pipe is a beanbag less-than-lethal round. Next is #9 birdshot. Then it goes 00 Buck, slug, 00 Buck, slug, 00 Buck, slug.
Way I see it, the guy(s) coming into my house has three chances to live. First is when I rack that round – nothing else sounds like a 12 gauge pump action slide. Second chance is the beanbag in the gut. Third chance is the birdshot – I will aim for the face if I can. It won’t kill unless it’s point blank, but it should make for a Bad Day downrange. If he/them are still coming at me after all that, they’ve chosen Death.
Play around with lights and lasers, too. I’ve got a nice Surefire LED rig and a good Crimson Trace laser set up. It takes some practice to move tactically in the dark with a set-up like that. I learned in many Combat Towns (urban combat training facilities) and some third-world shitholes that it’s best (for me) to move to cover/corner with the light off, then kneel, search, and assess with the light on. Keeping one eye closed with the light on will preserve a bit of night vision – but it takes practice to get used to. Other units had different SOPs, so one size doesn’t fit all here – key thing is practice.
Look at some Youtube videos (better yet, take a class) about weapon retention and ways to create distance between yourself and an attacker who goes toe-to-toe with you.
My uncle was a Pittsburgh cop for decades, and he’s the one who gave me the advice about ammo selection, by the way. Your mileage may vary, and I’d never look askance at a guy who started with the lethal stuff. Fuckers shouldn’t be breaking in, and if Death takes them, so be it.
Gun Nerd 6 Actual, out.
@Susan:
Just1X and Ted are correct. I work with this patient population quite a bit. I am unaware of any studies – but my average transport time is something around 10 minutes. I do an awful lot of chatting with these folks when they’re not super-sick.
For many young women, it is as those gents have said.
ADBG said:
“All women should get Nuvarings.”
________________________________
The Nuva Ring is not oral contraception. It goes somewhere else.
I have had to explain this before.
Apparently the Nuva Ring tastes pretty bad.
“what other forms of birth control do men have besides condoms?”
Vasectomy, Ted.
That’ll stuff the ém right up.!
Most vasectomies these days, can be successfully reversed, if at some later date a man wishes to have children.
As an insurance, sperm can always be frozen beforehand.
Foolproof!
“And do you really think young guys know half the girls they are having sex with well enough to know if they are honest?”
On the other hand men could just keep it in their pants, and women could just keep their legs closed.
Nah, no fun in that, is there?
Anyway, when used correctly, a male condom is about 98 per cent effective. This means that only about 2 in every 100 women would get pregnant in the course of a year.
Kathy.. ever the fountain of knowledge.
I don’t even have the strength to argue how useless your info is.
Carry on…
Ah, M3 never expected you would understand my tongue in cheek comment, anyway.
Kathy is the new Jess, except not as fun. Banned elsewhere,
@Jimmy
Yes, it is. It is natural for the biological father to provide for the offspring. That is why pair-bonding evolved to replace random short-term couplings. What is unnatural, at least since 1.5 million years ago, is for the father to take a hike and wash his hands of all responsibility for the child.
I think it’s more a case of the person who shoulders most of the burden gets to call the shots. The mother’s needs take precedence. If and when a child is born, that child’s needs come first. Then both parents must contribute.
I know you think I’m being obtuse, and I confess I feel like we’re speaking different languages. I can’t figure out how you don’t see this. I’ll let you have the last word.
You say that because you see injustice. I don’t. I see a set of circumstances that does not favor men, but the solution to achieve equality is male birth control. Not walking away from a child. When a child is born, both bio parents will pay. I think Bastiat’s solution is a good one – no one needs to profit on the deal. But the child must be provided for, by the parents who conceived him together.
That’s a valid question! I am consistent!
Susan 796
So what you are saying is that abortion should be banned then correct? Not walking away from a child, best interests and all. The girls know what they’re getting into when they have sex too.
I guess you’re just splitting the hair at when you believe life occurs? So can a man be allowed to financially abort during that time where it’s a fetus and not a child so the woman can still make the choice to abort?
Look, i agree male BC pill/reversible vasectomy is the ultimate answer so no one can shirk it once the deed is done, but until the powers to be decide men deserve equality and fund solutions, we have to make the law as equitable as possible in the here n now. Yes?
@Lokland
True, but the man can add a spermicide, or witness visual proof of a woman’s having provided birth control. I never took the Pill and had to rely on other measures. My fiddling with my BC was obvious to anyone I slept with.
Also, just a thought – the descriptions of women with crack mothers who want a baby like it’s some Cabbage Patch doll? Don’t have sex with them.
No, both were joint. My husband trusted me to abide by our mutual decision. It doesn’t matter what the law says I may do if the person who knows and loves me best knows otherwise.
Re male BC, I think it’s only fair and reasonable to support it. However, I have said I suspect many men will choose not to take it. I am not sure it will be the gamechanger everyone expects.
@Feral
This is true. Someone upthread suggested that men be let off the hook if they’ve been deceived. I would totally support that. I guess the state would have to step up. It would be hard to prove, but I do believe that if men can give evidence of entrapment, they should be absolved of any obligation.
The other side of your example is: Why do women argue for abortion on demand when it’s very easy to prevent pregnancy?
One of the things I noticed on Jezebel is that this empowered sexually educated women were willing to play Russian roulette for fun. I remember one mentioning how all her friends that tried the “rhythm” ended up needing an abortion. I’m like WTF!? Everybody knows the rhythm is highly unreliable most women I know that use it are assuming the chance of pregnancy knowing that they will keep the baby, playing with this knowing they will get an abortion if it doesn’t work is COLD.
I do think there is a level of desensitization when you grow up thinking “your body, your choice” after all ancient people practiced infanticide for millenniums because culturally speaking their kids didn’t had personhood till they were out of certain age for the longest time. So I think deep down they know that they want the chance to “make a mistake or two” and get no consequence and that is why they need abortion on demand, YMMV.
There have been some funny stories about men withdrawing with the Nuvaring on their shaft.
As I suggested in another comment, I think this gets close to the real issue. Guys want to have sex with randos, and they know they can’t trust them, so they want a law to let them off the hook. Maybe men should be more discerning in their choice of sex partners. Or hey! Here’s an idea! Get into a monogamous relationship characterized by trust and have all the sex you want without worrying.
If incentives drive behavior, the child support laws ought to be discouraging men from having impulsive sex with strangers, shouldn’t it?
@M3
Look, I need to make something clear. I have no idea why I’m even chairing this frigging debate on abortion. A bunch of MRA assholes descended on my blog after I wished dads a Happy Father’s Day. This blog has been highjacked to Libya and back.
I know nothing more than the average American about abortion, child support formulas, family law, new birth control technologies, or teenagers having babies as get rich quick schemes. I speak here with my common sense and a very pragmatic view of the current reproductive environment. I try to be fair. I am not an activist, nor do I wish to be.
I have no plans to make this part of my mission, and if the men here find that misandrist, so be it. Feel free to leave.
I am sick of this debate, and nothing new has been said in some time. If this comment thread doesn’t fizzle on its own, I’ll probably close it tomorrow.
@Ana
“reason to be more proactive on finding your man before someone else’s does *coughhintcough*”
Message received!
I will be going to one of our church’s sponsored swing dances this weekend, actually. It’s pretty awesome: Everyone dresses retro and everyone dances with everyone else. Some of the guys are really good, too! I’ll keep you posted of any special developments. 
@Jackie
WOOHOOOO! Finally some action.
That sounds like a great environment to meet someone interesting. But don’t think you are going to meet him on day one, unless you are really, really lucky. Try to give yourself at least three months IME it takes a while for the guys to notice, asses and then approach or the other way around for you to notice, assess and then approach. Just have fun, be feminine and dress pretty and if you can pick a decade for dressing up the 50′s are great. I had a whole Chuck from Pushing Daisies look for some photo shoots and I don’t think I ever looked better. Good luck!
Susan
I’m cool with that…
so when am i coming over for dinner?
@Ted D (#765)
Ted, after I read your comment I just had to turn off the computer.
My dad, brother and I were actually talking about this very subject on Father’s Day. I had a huge tax increase this year (d’oh!) and I said, If it was going to pay for SNAP cards, food and shelter I’d be glad to pay the extra moolah. I also give to the Food Shelf every month. (They make it easy here– there are pre-made grocery bags you can put in your cart, for lazy peeps like me.)
Because I thought those people needed it and were going to use the money/food to improve their situation.
My dad and brother were all, “You can’t legislate morality! And throwing money at the problem will never help.” And I was, “No one actually likes a handout, because it damages their self-respect! People need this to survive.”
I really need to check out from this thread, because I want to keep believing that humans can still have humanity.
Maybe we can have a thread on good things or cat videos?
@Ana
Haha– I know! Finally! Actually, I have been laying the groundwork while I took a break from HUS: There is a masterplan in place, trust!
By the way, I *love* 50s, Mad Men, Pushing Daises!! You have good taste, Queen of the Cullens!
I’m either wearing this:
http://productshots1.modcloth.com/productshots/0038/2769/3fe7f2e7234b424d3e7395baab58af28.jpg?1279287024
Or this (but in red):
http://www.bettiepageclothing.com/bettie-page/jazmin-pencil-black
I’ll let you know how it goes next week!
@ SW:
+1000!
The comments on this thread completely derailed! It’s crazy how a post detailing the importance of fathers (and how children suffer without them) was redirected so that bitter men and MRAs could bash women and whine about feminism.
The ironic thing is I don’t think any of the regulars on here who are women even self-identify as feminists so it’s preaching to the choir at best… SMH
I really need to check out from this thread, because I want to keep believing that humans can still have humanity.
Maybe we can have a thread on good things or cat videos?
We can save humanity, I still have hope that we will, I wouldn’t be bringing kids to a doomed world if I though otherwise, that would be cruel on my part. Is just a slow job, like decades slow, we had recover from worse situations is not the first time “Elohim’s children lose their way” and the culture of single motherhood and “living of the government” will collapse on itself.
You just need to stop idealizing the poor that I think is part of the issue, people is people and some of them will take advantage of any chance they got, rich or poor you need to try and be open minded about this .
I personally think that giving food to homeless shelters is a better choice is harder to sell food for anything and those homeless people surely can’t cash in prizes for not having a home. So is a matter of being a bit more strategic to who you help. Also don’t underestimate the power of one, if you see a person that needs the food on the street and is safe and/or you are accompanied giving some meals away, and soap and toothpaste. Is good also if you can talk to them a bit, they appreciate some conversation and who knows maybe you can find out something about them that makes you help or at least an ear to talk to. I’m a chicken talking to strangers so I don’t do it as often as I should but I try to push myself out there as much as I can and they are usually really thankful for being acknowledged as people, YMMV.
Or this (but in red):
http://www.bettiepageclothing.com/bettie-page/jazmin-pencil-black
Why do you temp me like this?!
I’m a cheap bastardess but I have a hard time resisting vintage clothing…is like my personal brand of heroine…need to channel Edward’s self control now. :p
+1,000!
@Iggles:
Here is this thread in pictoral form:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg
@Ana
You are full of really good points, knowledge and wisdom– You’re definitely ready to be a mother!
I will put some granola bars, trail mix, raisins, etc in my car, so the next time I see homeless people at a stoplight begging for money, I can give them a little bit of chow.
Also: If you pinch pennies until they squeak (i.e. a cheapskate) you are in good company! You can try on the dress in the store, then search online on eBay if you don’t want to pay retail. The more you know!
Susan Walsh’s “logic” vis a vis reproductive rights:
“My body, my choice…*your* responsibility.”
I apologize for my earlier comment about men being of “two minds”. It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek but I can see how it crossed the line. I sincerely apologize.
Wrt to the male BC pill…if Susan is correct, it will probably just go the way of the female condom. Available, but rarely preferred.
@ Jimmy Hendrix:
I would just like to clarify once again that I do not think I have the right to instruct what other people, male or female, should do with or to their bodies. My concern was with the social and economic repercussions. But, the more I think about it, the more I don’t think the male BC pill would even gain traction. It might just be a foolhardy expense.
At any rate: be safe above all. Even if the girl in question insists she’s on BC, wrap yo’ dick. Use spermicide. Pull out. Do all 3 if you’re really worried. There are plenty of ways to prevent pregnancy.
You are full of really good points, knowledge and wisdom– You’re definitely ready to be a mother!
I will put some granola bars, trail mix, raisins, etc in my car, so the next time I see homeless people at a stoplight begging for money, I can give them a little bit of chow.
Awww thank you so much I truly hope so, *kissonthecheek*
Also: If you pinch pennies until they squeak (i.e. a cheapskate) you are in good company! You can try on the dress in the store, then search online on eBay if you don’t want to pay retail. The more you know!
Great tip! Thank you again!
Well, if you expect your readers to discuss fatherhood and its social importance in general, it shouldn’t be surprising that some of them will start to discuss the laws pertaining to fatherhood, the legal implications of ‘unwanted fatherhood’, so to speak, and the legal environment in general that fathers face.
@Saywhaat
“But, the more I think about it, the more I don’t think the male BC pill would even gain traction. It might just be a foolhardy expense.”
Don’t agree with you there. The one I linked to in this thread (somewhere) would be a pill every month, or maybe every three months. It’s non-hormonal, so I would hope wouldn’t give serious side effects. Requires no medical intervention to reverse.
So, a pill per month/quarter to defend against a condom split (has happened to me multiple times – not effing happy at the time(s)). Not have to rely on the decision of a woman whether you’ll be subsidising her decision for 20 years…priceless.
Once the kid is conceived there’s no real chance of equality between mummy and daddy, I wish that wasn’t true, but there you go. The only way to protect the man’s right to choose is contraception. The cheaper, the more reliable and easiest to use the better.
“Well, if you expect your readers to discuss fatherhood and its social importance in general, it shouldn’t be surprising that some of them will start to discuss the laws pertaining to fatherhood, the legal implications of ‘unwanted fatherhood’, so to speak, and the legal environment in general that fathers face.”
Well, yeah that’s a fair point. But don’t you think that the aggression gets out of hand at times? (no, I’m not talking about specific people. this isn’t specifically aimed at Hollenhund).
It can take a while for every aspect of Susan’s views to emerge (I do NOT mean that they are hidden, just that communication online is even poorer than face-to-face). But when they do get clarified, I seldom see that much to get outraged by
e.g.
Susan;
“This is true. Someone upthread suggested that men be let off the hook if they’ve been deceived. I would totally support that. I guess the state would have to step up. It would be hard to prove, but I do believe that if men can give evidence of entrapment, they should be absolved of any obligation.”
Now I don’t believe that this represents any change of view, more of a clarification. I’d rather have the discussion and get to any required clarification without the outrage. Time and again when she states her views clearly, I am left feeling that they’re reasonable – they may not be my views, but outrageous? no.
And before I get accused of white knighting, this is not about Susan being female. I’d say the same thing if it happened at Dalrock’s, Welmer’s, AVFM, Private Man, UMan etc etc. It just doesn’t happen (that I’ve seen). Susan gets far more shit thrown at her than the hosts of those sites. I wasn’t very polite when I first seriously commented here (the open thread thing before xmas, a thread caused by a lot of ill feeling between multiple people) but what did I get? A clear statement of her position, which I found less than outrageous, a lot less. I have never pussy footed here, how the hell I have a good reputation (which I keep disavowing) I’ll never know. I’m damned sure that my IRL friends are convinced of my feet are of clay. I may have changed my tone here from time to time (alcofrol allowing), but hell, Firepower commented here politely! Manosphere regulars would understand my surprise, I was impressed (I’m sure he still hates me, which I can happily live with). Similarly, on Dalrock’s site, I don’t harp on about being an atheist. I read his site because he has things to say that I find interesting (and I agree with) even if he isn’t coming from exactly the same place that I am.
Susan clearly isn’t a feminist, neither does she even claim to be an MRA, what she is, is someone that I believe a reasoned discussion is possible with. Given that she provides insight into the world from another perspective and removes the radfemhub type lunacy that prevents any rational discussion, I think that HUS is a useful site. It’s just not an MRA site, I happen to think that it’s a pretty man friendly though.
@Jackie
I knew from the URL that I was going to see a train wreck, but that pic cracked me up. You are so right!
saywhaat:
Your apology is not accepted. I don’t buy your “I didn’t really mean it” mea culpa. Yes, you did mean it. You meant every word of it. You intended to insult and offend, and you succeeded.
I have never even seen one. Do they sell them at the drugstore? I picture it looking like a party hat.
I didn’t anticipate much discussion on that post, to be honest. It was a sincere message of appreciation for fathers. I was surprised when MRAs showed up here, because I’ve seen the things you and others have said about HUS elsewhere, and I didn’t expect you were even reading here. Nor do I understand even now what you hoped to get out of the conversation. You were civil on this thread but Ghost didn’t do your cause any good, I can tell you that. My readership is far more mainstream than the other blogs you frequent, and I am certain there are probably a couple of hundred new people in the world who are now saying, “Those men’s rights types are a nasty bunch.”
The other thing is that as I’ve stated, I am no expert on these issues. Yes, they are related to mating and marriage and the SMP, but this is not my forte, as you are well aware. I don’t enjoy moderating a debate like this or defending myself from constant accusations of misandry. It’s time consuming and more importantly, I don’t think minds get changed. I didn’t just wake up after a 40 year nap and hear about Roe. I’ve spent my entire adult life thinking about these issues. And I do not feel the need to have my POV examined here. I have every right to write about what interests me. I am not morally obligated to take on all of society’s ills.
“A bunch of MRA assholes descended on my blog after I wished dads a Happy Father’s Day.”
The thing is, fatherhood right now is primarily a legal construct, so to me it cannot be discussed without bringing men’s rights into the picture. When the state didn’t get involved in people’s private lives, fatherhood was generally worked out by social conventions (and shotguns from time to time) and it was up to the individuals involved what being a father actually meant. Today that is not the case. In many, many cases ‘fatherhood’ is dictated by the state in the form of child support and visitation rights, and most of the time the actual father has very little input into the process.
I truly do appreciate the sentiment, but to me if a woman wants to truly support fatherhood, she should be trying to help change the perception that the current system is fair. It isn’t, and even when many women admit that, they show no desire to actually care about it. As a man that voluntarily took on “father” duties, it really just rings hollow to me when I hear “happy father’s day” from anyone but my children or another father. In general I don’t want appreciation from the world for doing what I should. I’d prefer all that “effort” go to something more productive, like changing public opinion on family law. Every single person here can help, but it requires having uncomfortable conversations with people you know. It requires being shamed by people that want to protect the current system. It means sometimes pissing people off.
I just mentioned earlier in this thread that I avoid these conversations myself often, but no more. I’m done keeping my mouth shut while overhearing conversations about how such and such is a dead-beat because he isn’t keeping up on his child support while mom and her friends are getting their nails done at the mall.
Jackie – never give up hope. I don’t believe that all of this stems from people’s “evil” tendencies. But lets be honest. If you grew up in an environment like I describe, would you know any better? Many of these people are multi-generational welfare families. They’ve never known any other way of life other than what they see on TV. (Jersey Shore anyone?) If you really want to help, my suggestion is look for local assistance programs through churches or homeless shelters, and either volunteer or see if you can buy them supplies and donate them. Money is just too easy to move around, and at this point I don’t even trust church programs to be completely honest with monetary donations. But always understand, just as Susan tries to work around the edges of the SMP, the best you can ever do by yourself is work around the edges of the financially challenged. There are just far too many folks there that don’t want to be saved, they just want their food stamps and free housing. (and cable TV, cell phone, etc)
All the sex you want in a committed relationship. LOL. Now that’s funny. Wonder what all of the guys I’ve met, those who aren’t Alpha are doing wrong – years and years of ”relationships” but no sexual intimacy of any significance with their SO.
And the millions upon millions of married men who last saw their wives naked in 1970, lol. Hm, I want the male pill because I want to be equal to women, alright? I’m alright expected to carry the burden of society because I wasn’t born part of the superior sex, now I gotta rely on condoms to prevent a woman from financially destroy me?
Oh, and I’ve said this before. What’s the point of having sex when condoms take away most of the pleasure?
Wow, deti. Somewhere along the way you turned into such an asshole. It’s like watching the MRA version of Breaking Bad.
DS – That is the exact same shotgun my ex-wife’s new BF suggested for home defense, so at this point I think I will take that suggestion as gospel.
When I was just in my 20′s I had a security job for awhile at a depot overnight. The local police officer on duty overnight used to swing by and BS when bored, and over the course of months we chummed it up a bit. At one point I was at his house and he was showing me his “home defense system” (lots of guns…) and I asked him if he used anything non-lethal as a warning. He looked at me and said “hell no! Dead men make horrible witnesses and can’t testify in court.” That sealed the deal for me in terms of giving people a “warning”. If I’ve pulled out a firearm, I’ve already decided I’m shooting to kill. I admire anyone willing to extend that bit of courtesy, but to me if someone is in my house uninvited, they have already expressed a lack of concern for my wishes and well being, so I am only returning the favor.
We haven’t had one incident of attempted break in in our section of town, but just two or three blocks down houses and cars have been broken into with increasing volume. I’m currently combing Craigslist and Ebay for IP based security cameras for the front and back of the house, and like I said I’m acquiring a few other pieces of hardware to complement the security system as well.
It is just really frustrating to see all this going down. I’ve lived around here all my life, and I was here before the gang banger wanna-be’s and thugs, and I’m not going to simply run away. But the truth is, things are escalating (partially because school is out, and partially because the local police have really been cracking down in the worst areas, which seems to be pushing the unsavory types towards us.) One thing that makes me feel just a little better is: anytime I’ve had the chance to just chat with a local officer, they are very aware of what is going on. In every instance I’ve had to deal with the local cops, they have always been very understanding and considerate of my concerns, and knowing what types of people they have to deal with every day, that in and of itself is astounding.
Quick question (Sorry for further derailing Susan… At least I’m not ranting atm…) I’m thinking about a .380 for carry, since it is small but packs enough punch to mean business, but for home would a 9mm or a 45 be a better bet? I’ve heard that 9mm ammo may be getting more expensive/hard to find soon, but other than some rumors that the Fed is buying them up I’ve been given no real reason as to why. I do know that 9′s tend to punch through unless your using hollow tips, so would a 45 be a better option? Oh, and this would be for backup if the shotgun doesn’t do the trick.
It seems this comes down to a matter of preference for some, but at this point I have no allegiance to any particular gun.
@Ted
“hell no! Dead men make horrible witnesses and can’t testify in court.”
LMAO, now that is a good point. Hollow points would reduce penetration, I would guess licensing the ammo might vary from state to state.
@Dogsquat
We just need more hollywood shows with s/a. There’s nothing friendly about a semi being closed up, it’s just pumps have better brand recognition.
@Ted
if penetration is an issue then slug is not your friend, nor buckshot.
(and sorry, missed the hollow point ref in your comment – my bad)
@Ted
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
perhaps Dogsquat can vet the info.
Gun Nerd-SIX, nice posts. I currently keep a tricked-out LaRue 5.56 available for similar social occasions (I want the carbine in case the party heads outdoors or I have to make a shot around my Akita when she is occupying the target).
I may not win the fight, but I will make sure that we all become world famous, one way or another.
***BASTIAT CLEARS THE NET***
This is a very emotional and deeply personal issue because both sides have a lot at stake especially with so many differing outcomes based on a myriad of scenarios and circumstances playing out.
In the end, it boils down to equality and both sexes will see it mainly from their point of view because it’s the one they relate to. Where you fall on the political spectrum, your views on when life starts, if you want kids or not, telling men to keep it in pants/women keep their legs shut, abstinence for all or casual sex for all, black n white/50 shades of gray
It’s heated. In no way did i mean to besmirch you or go MRA on you. This may be a case of we will never see eye to eye. It was always about equality. For what it’s worth Susan, if i in anyway personally offended you or assailed you for your views i apologize.
Personally tho, i will be advocating vasectomies to every guy i run into. Imagine a world where every guy sterilizes themselves to protect their rights. Utopia. No more unwanted kids, unless we say we’re ready. “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.” I agree with the second part. That’s a future i’d fight for.
Firepower commented here politely!
I don’ t expect that to last. By what he posts and his blog, he seems the emotional type its only a matter of time before something set him up, I hope I’m wrong since I do think he is valuable but I’m not not betting on that.
@Ana
You and me; two minds, one opinion. Not so much his blog, but his comments elsewhere on the manosphere. I didn’t check his blog in detail, but it looked calmer than I’d have guessed beforehand…long may it last.
You and me; two minds, one opinion. Not so much his blog, but his comments elsewhere on the manosphere. I didn’t check his blog in detail, but it looked calmer than I’d have guessed beforehand…long may it last.
Heh great minds think alike and that is the thing some things are meant to enjoy it while they last…
M3: That last comment by Susan was directed at me.
Susan, Saywhaat: OK, I will accept your apology. It is heated, and it does get personal. So I will accept it as offered in good faith.
@M3
Nah, we’re cool. I understand that it’s an emotional topic. Not exactly a fun one, but it comes with the territory, and I’m not out to suggest there are not real inequities and that the deck isn’t stacked against men. It clearly is, and reluctance to marry is predictable and justified, IMO, even if it bums me out.
Thank you deti.
@Ted:
Dude, the .380/9mm/.40/.45 caliber debate is like asking Hamas, Kahane Chai, and Shining Path to agree on who needs to be blown up next.
I tend to make my caliber selections with the following statement in mind:
“It’s better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it.”
So, I own and carry all of the above calibers at varying times. I picked up a little DB .380 and a pocket holster for when I dress up. There’s a Glock 26 in my first aid kit/jump bag. Summer sees me fashionably equipped with a XD (M) 3.8 inch in 40cal (need an IWB holster most of the time). My favorite, favorite, favorite pistol to carry is my Sig GSR M1911 – but it’s a big honkin’ weapon – not always practical.
So, pick something you can shoot well. Pick something you can conceal easily, and that’s comfortable enough it won’t get left in your nightstand or in the glove-box of your car. The guy with a little 5 shot .38 snubbie in his pocket is in better shape than the guy who as a ported HK Mk 23 loaded with +P+ hollowpoints – that he left at home.
I’ve seen enough gunshot wounds both in war zones and on the street to realize that most pistol calibers only help at the margins. You’re not getting into hydrostatic shock and permanent wound channels until some of the hotter .357Magnum loads, anyway. You’ve got to cut nerves and destroy major blood vessels/organs no matter what, so shot placement is key.
Also, be prepared to agonize about holsters almost as much as you agonize about weapon selection. In some cases, availability of holsters may nudge your choice in pistol. For example, almost nobody makes reasonable concealment holsters for FN Herstal pistols. If you like an FN bangstick, that’s something to consider.
About less-than-lethal loads –
My calculus might match yours if I had a wife and kids to consider. I understand and respect your attitude WRT lethality.
@ Bastiat:
I’m jealous. I’ve only ever read about those, never fired one. Heard they’re good weapons, though. And you can’t beat a good dog for home defense…
I’ll bet the other side of the bed has a paddle and some swim fins to smack the intruder around with, too, no?
Just1x said:
“We just need more hollywood shows with s/a. There’s nothing friendly about a semi being closed up, it’s just pumps have better brand recognition.”
___________________________
No doubt! Of course, if the intruder doesn’t recognize the sound of a Benelli bolt sliding home, he’ll figure out something’s wrong when it goes BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM real fast-like.
Fair enough. But these pair-bonds were normally voluntary, weren’t they? The man consented to support the child in question. I’m not saying shotgun weddings didn’t exist, say, 500 thousand years ago, but I’m sure they weren’t the norm. Shotgun weddings were never the norm, after all. So there’s no real equivalence.
On the other hand, apparently the norm in prehistoric times for a long period was serial monogamy. Lifelong monogamy was institutionalized much later, around the agricultural revolution, as far as I know.
@Dogsquat
“he’ll figure out something’s wrong”
maybe your criminal element is more intelligent?
@ Jackie:
Ha!! So true
With respect to the male birth control pill, I recall reading about an American survey conducted among yet childless wives. It was linked at some Manosphere blog ages ago. They asked them how they’d react if they found that their husbands were using contraception without their knowledge. The majority of the women found that hypothetical situation outrageous, the obvious reason being that they all expected their husbands to impregnate them sooner or later, but preferably sooner, and they felt that a husband who keeps having regular sex with her wife while secretly using contraception is basically just using the wife – if she wants to have children.
Directly related to all of this:
Male Birth Control: New Procedure Is 100 Percent Effective, Reversible
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/male-birth-control-reversible_n_1400708.html
Is salvation at hand? Or pandora’s box being blown wide open. You decide..
And another.. the hits just keep on cumming. (well.. not with this pill pardon the pun)
http://techcitement.com/culture/could-this-male-contraceptive-pill-make-a-vas-deferens-in-the-fight-against-hiv/
Gun stuff is fun. Marshall and Sanow did some research on the matter of stopping power. It’s controversial but a good starting point. Go read about the 1986 Miami bank shootout to get an idea about calibers and stopping power, etc… One thing to consider when thinking about home defense is if other people are in the house and if you are going to have to navigate thru the house. Opening doors and perhaps operating light switches at the same time escorting by the hand a child or upset adult will have you thinking about a one handed pistol or a two handed shotgun.
Dogsquat, I had to move the fins and paddle because I kept tripping over them. However, I retained the tight UDT swim trunks, hair gel, and assorted tanning products.
@Hollenhund
I’ve never seen it, but to me the obvious problem is the secrecy. There’s no place for that in a marriage, from either party. I also find it hard to believe that modern women feel they’re being used for sex if they’re not trying to get pregnant. In fact, the only time I’ve ever heard that complaint is from men who are expected to stand at attention when a wife is struggling with fertility and they need to follow the cycle very carefully.
@Susan
If you’ve felt attacked by anything I’ve written, then I do apologize, that definitely hasn’t been my intention.
Even though my family is solidly MC to UMC now, I was originally born and raised in a lower class part of town, and I do see a lot of the horror stories that Ted and others talk about. One of my best friends from childhood was having to pay child support to the mother of his child even though he was raising the kid 80% of the time. When he went to the child support office to inform them that he was the primary caregiver, he was told “Sir, quite frankly we don’t care.”
I guess this is my “last word” (and as I said earlier, none of this is aimed at you specifically, just generalities):
-> I don’t think fathers should be legally permitted to abandon their children. But I also don’t think that mothers should be legally permitted to either. I consider abortion in the absence of health risks to constitute abandoning one’s children.
-> I think it’s a shame that our society holds one sex to its responsibilities as a parent, while enthusiastically cheering on the other to shirk those responsibilities if they feel its in their best interest. I think such a government and socially-sanctioned attitude is a big reason for the rise of illegitimate children, and will continue to diminish the perceived importance of fathers. I honestly can’t comprehend how anyone could be “pro-family” and support things the way they are.
-> I think the real crime is that a man’s child can be taken from him through abortion without his consent when he would have wanted to be a good father to that child, with or without the mother’s support. If that happened to me, I can’t even begin to think how emotionally torn up I’d be over it. I know that situation may not be incredibly common, but I still believe that one instance of it happening is one too many.
I don’t expect anyone to be an activist. I’m not one myself and certainly not an MRA. But it’s my opinion that it isn’t the activists that eliminate injustice, but the normal everyday people who think to themselves “You know, the more that I look at that, the more I realize it’s not right,” and simply stop giving their support to the status quo.
And I’ll repeat that I do think this was the most level headed and civil discussion on abortion that I’ve ever seen, so I commend everyone for that.
The survey was among young wives and generally they’re trying to get pregnant.
Didn’t you meant to say OF men?
No. I think it can really be a grind for guys to perform on command when the woman ovulates. For couples with fertility issues, this is a frequent complaint. She’s going by the calendar and the thermometer, sex has nothing to do with desire and arousal. Guys can start to feel like nothing but sperm vehicles, and I can understand why.
christiankp, if we, generally speaking, don’t abandon responsibility – which is responsibility without rights, really -, we will forever remain the servants and useful idiots of the feminist regime. Have you considered that?
Huh? Are you for real? Feminists and their hangers-on have been doling out such shaming for years, apparently successfully because pretty much everyone but the MRAs and some feminists believes them. You’re aware of the proliferating “man up!” and “where have all the good men gone?” type of articles and TV reports, aren’t you?
Besides being completely idiotic and unjust, this idea wouldn’t even work because women generally don’t punish the men they find attractive. It has always been the betas who served as whipping boys for the “crimes” of alphas. The only people this idea would hurt are the betas.
Höllenhund:
Instead of fighting for abandoning child support we could take on this responsibility and then fight for other rights. For example we could say that no man can opt out of fatherhood, therefore only men should be allowed to vote – or we could fight for putting severe restrictions on the life of single moms. We have lots of other possibilities.
Of course I am aware of the manning up campaign, but I was also aware that i did not function because all men know that we are not to blame and I think feminism and so-cons are really really scared about that. They know now that they have lost control of the male population which is going its own way.
Of course I know that betas will be scared away too, but that’s also one of the points. By making very clear that it is very dangerous for a man to engage women I will make men very reluctant so that women are forced to be the initiators and forced to show that they are worthy of male companionship.
I think that the best thing med can do is to opt out of the SMP as well as the MMP. Are there not more important things to do than f*cking women? I think that men would be placed in a much better situation if men stoically turned down advances from women and also refrained from having casual sex.
Of course there are women out there who are trustworthy but every one of the has to do the outmost to show to the man she want that she is worthy.
I have to say this sounds a bit far-fetched, christiankp. Moreover, I fail to see the logical connection.
It won’t work. It’s very easy to manipulate people’s general concern for the well-being of children. Any gibberish about “keeping the best interests of children in mind” swiftly shuts up all opposition. After all, who would want to be branded as a heartless sleaze who, you know, doesn’t care about the best interests of innocent children?
Add to this the general consensus in society that a child shouldn’t be separated from her mother unless she’s some horribly abusive, psychopathic cunt, and you have a toxic environment where irresponsible single mothers simply cannot be punished. This is just further proof that society is just plainly screwed and thus men need to go their own way.
If they are as viable and workable as the two you listed, there’s no hope for the human race. Oh well.
Women won’t approach men they consider to be wimps.
I agree. A growing proportion of women are actually unworthy of casual sex, in my opinion, due to the obesity epidemic, plus the spread of horrible attitudes, psychological wretchedness and plain crazy behavior among women. But the thing is this: if a man is to forfeit casual sex with women, he needs to do it out of free will and conviction, not fear or shame. That’s the only approach worthy of men.
I think that one reason for our different viewpoints is that I believe that men will inevitably win the gender war, while you believe that men are about to loose it.
The reason why men will eventually win is that feminism is not in the best interest of women, and that every “gain” for women that feminism boost of is in fact a loss.
Women are allowed to do careers. That one of the gains. But making a career is time consuming and increase workload. It may be fun to be in a career when you are young, but most careers sucks when you are above 50, both for men and for women. Unfortunately women also get into the menopause in this age making lots of years really sucking.
As women make their own careers and are becoming more independent of men it is possible for men to have more freedom. I am an academic with a salary that used to be high above $ 140000. I have chosen to cut down on paid work although I am only 50+. One reason that I decided to man down was feminists and soon shaming men to man up. Another reason was that my wife and I don’t need so much money.
I think that formerly it was unheard of that men my age was scaling down as the needed to support their wives. And men working less in the labor market will turn out to be a catastrophe for women and children.
Stupid women as Hanna Rosin might think it is a victory for women, but it is a defeat. Women know have to do all that shitty work that we did and men are increasingly opting out.
Fortunately, because of affirmative action, women cannot blame us for not taking our share in the labor market. They themselves have made it impossible. So the declining participation of men in the work force can be blamed on women. Fortunately many of those women who thinking only of themselves and pushing out men from the labor market are now taking a hit themselves. Their sons can’t manage, and instead of being supported by a husband they may be forced to support their son until they die.
Another thing that is weakening women’s position is that modern women have make nothing but for increasing their own happiness. The project of modern women haw been narcissistic, but narcissistic motivation does not hold very long. When these women find out that there is no happiness in being a doctor and there is no happiness in being a lawyer they will decrease their workload as far as they can.
There is no happiness for a man in being a lawyer, a doctor, a CEO neither. But there may be a happiness in supporting a family.
I know that it has been customary for women to use the wellbeing of their children to manipulate others – but they can’t continue to do so. First of all, what women are interested in is resources, but as man earn less it will be more and more difficult to get money from men. I believe that many men adapt to the exploitation by women by not earning so much money. I believe that, not considering affirmative action and the feminization of schools it is rational for most boys and men not to work to much at school and not to graduate, because the less you earn, the less you can get exploited.
One day – and that may already have happened – the river of money going from men to women will dry up and the resources going to lonely mothers must be taken from other women. Then, my dear friend, there will be no “best interest of the child”.
I agree with you that we shall not shame men, but I think it is wise to scare them away from SMP. To have sex with a woman you do not know is as going around with an unsecured hand grenade. Hand grenades are dangerous. Women may be dangerous – and as long as you don’t know them you might better consider them a hand grenade.
I know that women will not approach a man that they consider to be a whimp. But that’s their problem, not men’s. It is not the woman who is the gift to you, it is you as a man who is the gift to her – and if she is not proving worthy of it she should not have the gift.
I’ll say upfront that I didn’t sift through the 6 pages of comments, but that book was published in 1996 and the rates of single motherhood are significantly higher now. For women under 30, the number is 53% according to a NY Times article a few months ago. It’s quickly getting to the point where the bar is so low that simply raising your own damn kids gives them a significant competitive advantage later in life.
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