The 10 Most Important Things I Learned From Dating Men I Didn’t Marry

June 22, 2012

Or: The Importance of Dating, Part II

Happy Friday, HUSies. I promised a post on the important things I learned from dating men before I met my husband. Most importantly, I learned I didn’t want to marry them. I don’t think they wanted to marry me either.

One of the problems with hookup culture is that very few people are getting a chance to do relationships with training wheels. As we saw in the previous post, during the era when people went steady they were essentially “playing house” as a pretend married couple. If and when those relationships ended, both parties walked away with a set of experiences and hopefully, lessons learned. Of course, some people get lucky and meet the love of their lives early on and live happily ever after. But most of us benefit from the opportunity to do a couple of trial runs. 

One helpful thing about the current SMP is that red flags are everywhere! Assuming you don’t grow immune to acts of douchebaggery, a young woman can learn a lot about who not to date, just by observing others. She doesn’t even need to make mistakes first hand! When you do date someone who makes it through the character filter, you’ll learn a lot about loving, compromising, resolving conflict and what you need and want in a mate. 

Here are the best lessons I learned while seriously dating men I didn’t marry, in no particular order. Yours will be different.

1. When one person is neat and one person is messy, the messy person should do all the compromising.

I used to be messy. My boyfriend was super neat. My messiness drove hms crazy. In contrast, his neatness was always a pleasant surprise to me, like elves had come in during the night and done all the work. I had to become a neat person, it seemed like the right thing to do. My husband is neater than I am, but on a scale of 1-10 I get a solid 7.5 for neatness nowadays.

2. Stoics and emos don’t mix. 

I’m on the emo end of the spectrum. I love pillow talk and mushy moments and romantic gestures. And when there’s conflict I want to resolve it quickly by talking it through. I need a man who has emotions and shows them. I can’t make it work with a strong, silent type.

I am also a sucker for glimpses of the boy he once was. I remember one boyfriend broke his arm, and for some reason I thought he looked so hot with that cast. It was like looking at a 7th grade version of him or something. Adorable. I also fall to pieces when I see a guy’s boyhood bedroom. 

3. Sexual compatibility is mostly about sex drive.

As long as two people are open to new things and invested in pleasing one another, I think what to do and how to do it are the easy part. The hard part, in my experience is when. We like to joke that guys want sex all the time, but they do vary. Some guys aren’t up for it when they have a lot on their mind. Some guys want it several times a day no matter what, especially early on. 

I went to college during an era when the sexes didn’t have much access to one another on campus. Finding a way to have sex could be a challenge. A car was ideal, but if you didn’t have one all sorts of furtive arrangements were required. This meant that having sex once or twice a week was doable, but there were no lazy mornings in bed followed by brunch. It wasn’t until I went to Europe with my boyfriend that I learned that given the opportunity to have sex six times a day, he wasn’t into it. There is nothing worse than climbing into bed for some sexy time and hearing a curt “Good night.” Of course, he thought I was a nymphomaniac. I thought that was a good thing! Our relationship didn’t last long after that trip. 

4. You have to laugh at the same stuff.

Most women say that a sense of humor is very important to them in a mate. But there are many kinds of humor, and many different facets of humor. I love sharing the same funny bone. I dated one guy who found The Three Stooges hilarious. I don’t. I dated another who didn’t appreciate John Cleese’s Ministry of Silly Walks. I do. These small bits of incompatibility kill attraction for me. 

In a relationship I like a bit of silliness, inside jokes, goofy nicknames, etc. My husband and I trade funny tidbits every day, and have for 30 years. Laughter is the best tension reducer I know, and it’s not unusual for one of us to start laughing even during an argument. Of course, that only happens if the argument is stupid, but it’s a great way to diffuse anger.

For me, another critical element is the ability to laugh at oneself. I believe this is the genius of Larry David, Woody Allen and Lena Dunham. I love people who can do it, and I generally steer clear of people who are unable to do it.

5. 90% of the time eyes tell the story.

If you look into someone’s eyes and read their micro facial expressions, particularly during intimate moments, you will see a map of what they are feeling. If the eyes are dead or cold, the relationship is dead and cold. You should see a softening, a certain kind of lifting at the corners of the mouth, a longing, and a deep, penetrative gaze. Never marry anyone you cannot read this way. 

6. One significant lie in a relationship spoils it forever. 

Whether it’s cheating, his not being honest about his past, or some other major aspect of his life, if your boyfriend tells you a whopper, he’s just kicked away a chunk of the foundation, and your relationship is unstable. Before marriage, lying should be an immediate and non-negotiable dealbreaker.

7. If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.

If you are dating someone who feels threatened by your behavior or is insecure in your affection, stick a fork in it. You are either out of his league, too demanding of attention from others, or he can sense that you are not nearly as invested as he is. Some of this often comes up in the early days, and it can help to learn what the other person finds threatening. But if this continues over time, the relationship is not tenable. Either (or neither) party may be at fault, but the point is, it’s not a good match.

8. Passions are a must.

I like men who have strong opinions and strong interests. I recall being super turned off that my college bf had no opinion whatsoever about a Presidential election. I love it that my husband has informed views. I also love it that he is very loyal to the Red Sox (going back to a time when they sucked). Here are some of the things I have found sexually attractive in men:

  • deep love and abiding passion for grandparents’ summer cabin on a lake
  • loyalty to sports teams
  • deep and broad knowledge of music
  • a firm conviction that The Beatles are the greatest band ever
  • watching Godfather and Godfather II a minimum of twice a year
  • keeping the Bill James baseball encyclopedia on the night table
  • being a Big Brother
  • playing chess regularly
  • strong interest in reading history

The only way people can be boring is if they don’t have any interests or don’t talk about them. I’ve dated some boring guys.

9. Impulsive acts destabilize relationships.

Some people like to keep things edgy and unpredictable. I am not one of those people. Crazy plans on the spur of the moment are not fun for me. I’m not talking about skinny dipping, I’m talking about calling in sick to work and flying to the Caribbean on a whim for a week. Or buying a new car when you can’t afford it. Or quitting a job because “those people are driving me crazy.” Or any behavior showing a failure to comprehend that credit card spending will have to be dealt with at some future point. 

My idea of crazy is a Bloody Mary on a Sunday morning. Don’t pair up with a dopamine chaser if you’re not one yourself. 

10. When it’s right, it feels easy.

Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person. If you have doubts, feel angsty, or have a lot of conflict in a relationship, end it. Opposites may attract but research shows they don’t marry well. If you find yourself having fights just to get to the makeup sex, the breakup is long overdue.

You should never, ever walk up the aisle if you don’t feel the urge to run up the aisle instead. You should be chomping at the bit to make your commitment official. One doubt is too many. It goes without saying you should be on the same page re children, including the timing, the number, and how you want to raise them. Never, ever leave a major issue to be negotiated after marriage, and hoping to change someone’s mind after marriage is a fool’s errand.

There will be challenges and crises in every life, including married life. Having a close relationship with your partner helps you weather them together.

It’s not about people being good enough for you, it’s about how compatible you are and how well you complement one another.

Every person you date has something to teach you. What have you learned from dating?

  • Heh I have to laugh at the Messy/Neat paradigm. My mother is the messy one and daddy is the neat one. My mother started to be neater when the marriage was fresh and we were little, but then slowly mess took over. At this point the house is a huge mess and daddy only has one drawer and a side of the closet organized for himself…I think that one varies per couple.
    Also first :p

  • GudEnuf

    Let’s get these out of the way:

    -Marriage is the greatest scam since organized religion and anyone who claims otherwise is a deluded white-knight/hamster.

    -Women will never be able to find a good husband because they killed all the good men 30 years ago.

    -Susan Walsh is a misandrist for suggesting that women ought to act in their best interests.

    -If I can’t find a sexual partner, the rest of the world is at fault.

    Now that I’ve said these things, let’s try and go 10 comments before repeating them.

    • @GudEnuf

      You scared me for a minute, I thought you were in earnest.

      I’m hoping this thread will not be controversial!

  • Jonny

    A messy person projects a “I don’t care” mentality. If they don’t care, why should I.

  • Just1X

    Musical tastes?

    I have pretty wide ranging tastes, but boy bands and ‘teh love whale’ type pussy music are unacceptable – clearly. Call me a facist if you must, I can take it

    • @Just1X

      I have pretty wide ranging tastes, but boy bands and ‘teh love whale’ type pussy music are unacceptable — clearly. Call me a facist if you must, I can take it

      Oh you already proved your cred with expertise on the whole Celtic Afro scene. Very strong DHV, IMO.

  • Just1X

    Sad to say, but I took GudEnuf’s comment at face value…but then my weekend has started. (sorry G)

  • A messy person projects a “I don’t care” mentality. If they don’t care, why should I.

    Studies are piling up that show that messy desks are the vivid signatures of people with creative, limber minds: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/garden/21mess.html?pagewanted=all

  • Just1X

    To be honest I’m looking for something new to listen to. My last favourite was ‘Hugo’ an Anglo-Thai guy (off the top of my head) ‘Mekong River Delta’ and ‘Born’. ’99 problems’ still makes me smile though. I need something with a little more energy, just perusing my collection…

  • Just1X

    Amy MacDonald – Don’t tell me that its over

    not bad, but still too slow

    result! now if I could just find my damn air-guitar…

    The Cult – She sells sanctuary
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I8mWG6HlmU&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AL94UKMTqg-9C9TZWvFtSMbN3vWLFvWMDW
    (love one of the comments; This song makes me want to dress like a gay Apache sea pirate. )

    The Cult – Rain
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3DgAJwVeVU&feature=related

    The Cult – Love removal machine
    hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneFS48Z4Ws&feature=related

    The Cult – Wild hearted son
    hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFrhKs4ZAbg

    Do we ever get over our early music interests? I’m afraid not.

    Having ruined any street cred I ever scraped together, this weekend I shall mainly be listening to the Dandy Warhols (though the comic reference won’t make it over the pond, I’m afraid).

    Told you my musical ‘tastes’ were varied…it’s going to be a good weekend

  • Abbot

    If there was only a very limited number of trial runs and that is the total, then many more men would see much more wife material. But alas, here we are.

  • Ted D

    Just1x – “Do we ever get over our early music interests? I’m afraid not”

    If my continuing desire for early Depeche Mode music is any indication, I would say you are correct.

  • pennies

    Great post, Susan!

    I think emo vs. stoic has been the greatest challenge in my dating life. As a really strong NF who loves talking about ideas, I tend to have a lot of NF and NT connections (both friendship connections and romantic ones).

    The problem for me (and this sounds weird — feel free to laugh) is that NF boys stink. To me. What I mean is, something about our chemistry feels off and they don’t smell right to me when I get close. Whereas, NT men and I have great talks and they generally tend to smell and taste marvelous. They’re fun to roll around on! So fun to hug and kiss.

    I tend to think of this as a complementary immune system issue. I’d probably give birth to a neurochemically well-rounded child with an NT.

    But… they tend to be meanies/shut down if I cry and want to talk through my feelings. And I’m talking about crying over legitimate things like my brother passing, a student of mine struggling, human rights issues… I’m not talking about crying if a nail breaks or if I can’t pick where to go to dinner.

    It’s an interesting conundrum to be most physically and sexually compatible with men who dislike even legitimate emo…

    Anyways, such a wise post! Hope your young ladies show up and comment on this one…

    • @Pennies

      The problem for me (and this sounds weird — feel free to laugh) is that NF boys stink. To me. What I mean is, something about our chemistry feels off and they don’t smell right to me when I get close

      That is so interesting – the idea that pheromones would be linked to personality type. I wonder if there is any research on this.

  • Just1X

    @Ted
    you too huh?

    I have dabbled in Depeche Mode, but I didn’t inhale…my uni room-mate went to one of their concerts, and he exposed me to Devo…

  • Ted D

    Just1X – OMG! I went to a Devo concert once upon a time. I didn’t know who they were, and I was very disturbed by all the people that showed up wearing flow pots.

  • Just1X

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devo

    “History

    Early years

    The name “Devo” comes “from their concept of ‘de-evolution’ – the idea that instead of continuing to evolve, mankind has actually begun to regress, as evidenced by the dysfunction and herd mentality of American society.”

    Boy, this group could provide the theme music for HUS and the manosphere…

  • Just1X

    and half way down that page are pictures of them wearing flower pots on their heads

  • Just1X

    Sorry! not flower-pots, “Energy Domes” – you could not make this shit up

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_dome

  • Some decent advice, but I take issue with #6.

    First off, people lie constantly. (link is to a Ted Talk)
    http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar.html

    Second, we get into a slippery slope in terms of what is defined as a “significant” lie. Do you really want to know all the details? Is leaving out details considered a lie? Etc.

    Third, the benefits of “lying”* (and not getting caught) far outweigh the costs. With that in mind, there are some seriously dumb relationship questions.
    http://genuineapproach.com/2012/06/the-dumbest-relationship-question/

    *I have personally witnessed women lie constantly about their sexual experiences. Certain things just “don’t count”. Again, the benefits of lying far outweigh the costs.

    • @theMac

      I like that post on the cheating question. I agree that there’s no point in asking it. I didn’t really have that in mind when I wrote the post, but I do think each person will have to define what a significant lie is to them, and whether it must be an outright lie or a lie of omission.

      For example, not mentioning that you have a girlfriend when you ask someone on a date.

      Not mentioning that you are still having drama with your ex even as you enter a new relationship.

      Cheating in the relationship (not a prior one).

      Lying about your whereabouts or who you were with.

      Lying about having an STD.

      Misrepresenting your employment or educational credentials.

      You get the idea. Big stuff.

  • JL125

    Reminds me of a NY Times article back in 2006 that I’ve saved in my email for future purposes.

    Questions Couples Should Ask (Or Wish They Had) Before Marrying

    Relationship experts report that too many couples fail to ask each other critical questions before marrying. Here are a few key ones that couples should consider asking:

    1) Have we discussed whether or not to have children, and if the answer is yes, who is going to be the primary care giver?

    2) Do we have a clear idea of each other’s financial obligations and goals, and do our ideas about spending and saving mesh?

    3) Have we discussed our expectations for how the household will be maintained, and are we in agreement on who will manage the chores?

    4) Have we fully disclosed our health histories, both physical and mental?

    5) Is my partner affectionate to the degree that I expect?

    6) Can we comfortably and openly discuss our sexual needs, preferences and fears?

    7) Will there be a television in the bedroom?

    8) Do we truly listen to each other and fairly consider one another’s ideas and complaints?

    9) Have we reached a clear understanding of each other’s spiritual beliefs and needs, and have we discussed when and how our children will be exposed to religious/moral education?

    10) Do we like and respect each other’s friends?

    11) Do we value and respect each other’s parents, and is either of us concerned about whether the parents will interfere with the relationship?

    12) What does my family do that annoys you?

    13) Are there some things that you and I are NOT prepared to give up in the marriage?

    14) If one of us were to be offered a career opportunity in a location far from the other’s family, are we prepared to move?

    15) Do each of us feel fully confident in the other’s commitment to the marriage and believe that the bond can survive whatever challenges we may face?

    • @JL125

      I agree with the importance of the questions on that list. By the time my husband and I became engaged, we’d already covered that territory, so we didn’t need to have a formal Q&A. Obviously, that’s ideal, but if either party has questions, they shouldn’t hesitate to fire them off.

  • M3

    This is actually a damn good list and bring to sharp relief many aspects of incompatibility my love blinders put on me during marriage.

    1. I was neat, she nuked the place. Cleaning up was my ‘chore’.

    2. Stoics n emos. Not fully applicable but i was INT and she was ENT. Her social lifestyle of get togethers and entertaining drained me.

    3. We were sexually compatible at the start, but soon she altered the frequency and type of sex she was looking for. big hurdle. Sexual similarities are also important like kinks, fetishes, preferences.

    7. Jealousy. I was never overtly jealous or leashed her, but her social ways and hots for celebs wore on me. Back then i may have felt i was also punching above my weight and lucked out. Today with the changes i’ve made, we’d be almost at par, or me higher up in sex rank.

    9. Passions. worked against me tho. i was passionate about a lot of things, all things she didn’t, or caused strife. our passions were not on the same level.

    10. At the very beginning it felt this way, tho probably because she played her feminine part well, and only when she shit test me to death and continued to fight for control did it become ‘not easy’.

    I would also add that female jealousy can’t help either. And partner count disparity or perceptions. I was an multi year incel, she was not without a boyfriend for her entire life. This led to a perception of not her taking certain things for granted that i held appreciation for.

    All in all, a good list to go by if you’re in the market for marriage. Pump n dumpers will not care for this.

  • Ramble

    If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.

    Interesting.

    • If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.

      Interesting.

      Oops, clarification needed. This is strictly a function of my generally writing to women in my head. I think jealous and possessive behavior is a red flag in general, but I do think it functions differently for the sexes. The male is truly worried about sexual unfaithfulness, i.e. cuckolding, while the female is most worried about his developing feelings for someone else. In a recent example I gave of an ex-gf acting psycho with 60 phone calls in an hour, the men (VD, I think) suggested the guy would take that as a positive indication of loyalty and focus on him.

      FWIW, I do think the concept of this post applies equally to both sexes, pronoun errors notwithstanding.

  • Just1X

    Re Stoics and Emos

    Are you sure that it is that clear cut?

    In the event of the zombie apocolypse (it can only be a matter of time), do you not want a man that ‘gets shit done’, and while tucked up in bed later, then he can reveal his emo side?

    This would be more alignment with PUA theory (and no, I’m not a PUA)

    • @Just1X

      In the event of the zombie apocolypse (it can only be a matter of time), do you not want a man that ‘gets shit done’, and while tucked up in bed later, then he can reveal his emo side?

      Good point. I’d say the ideal is definitely a man who gets shit done and unwinds in private later. Goodness, I would not appreciate getting emo phone calls while I was working, or while business needed tending to. A time and a place for everything.

      I have dated guys who don’t do cuddling. We also discussed this once at a focus group and several women said they hate cuddling or spooning, and want to be as far away in the bed as possible. I find that hard to imagine – perhaps this reflects the masculinization of females because of feminism.

  • Herb

    @Just1X

    Do we ever get over our early music interests? I’m afraid not.

    I don’t know, I rarely listen to Abba or Blondie much anymore.

    Or The Commodores (the first record I ever bought on my own was Natural High)…in terms of that if punk hadn’t happened I would have been the classic white kid into funk.

    Now days it’s a mix of goth from Joy Division to today (you spin it on the radio and it says in your blood) and all kinds of electronic (Jean Michael Jarre to the whole EBM spectrum) plus tons of ethereal (did you hear Unto Ashes got back together and just put out an album).

    @Susan
    Re:1…my ability to compromise on that is one of the big issues in the gf and I moving in together.

    • @Herb

      Re:1…my ability to compromise on that is one of the big issues in the gf and I moving in together.

      Is she the messy one? If so, tell her what I said. Her messiness makes you miserable, your neatness is a nice bennie for her. She needs to step up.

  • Just1X

    @Herb

    Never heard of Unto Ashes, but next time I’m feeling that way inclined, I’ll give them a go. Thanks for the suggestion. Done Jarre, Tangerine Dream, Crustation, Deep Forest

  • J

    If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed… Interesting.

    I agree that it’s bad in women too, but as the daughter of a man who was prone to unjustified jealous rages, I can see how people might see that as more commonly a male problem than a female one. Factually, it might not be, but I understand the (mis?)perception.

  • Ramble

    Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person.

    Thank you.

    The truth is that many people will actually get angry at you if you say this in some sort of public forum and you are able to make a reasonable argument in favor of it.

    Basically, they resent you for having a good relationship.

  • J

    Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person.

    Really? I find it hard as hell, despite being married to “the right person.” Unfortunately, for both DH and me, the right person was also a person from a similarly disfunctional family. That’s meant we both had a lot to learn and unlearn.

    Susan, you’ve told some stories regarding your family of origin that indicate some dysfunction as well. How did you get around that to the extent that you found marriage easy? What’s your secret? (I hope that doesn’t sound snarky. I really would benefit from your answer.)

    You have to laugh at the same stuff.

    Or as DH and I would add, at the same people.

  • J

    @GudEnuf

    That was funny!

  • Ted D

    ” Deep Forest”

    YES!

    I’ve recently been dragged into Dub Step by my daughter’s minor obsession with Skrillex. As a fan of electronic music from way back (DM was my first!!!) I can and do like a lot of it. The flip side is some of it really does just sound like random noise shoved together. I see the ‘art’ part of DS and similar electronic styles is often taking non-musical sounds and making them musical. But when that fails, it fails badly.

  • Just1X

    @Ted

    I feel old now, I’m off for milk, cookies and the Germany vs Greece game 3nd half (no grudges there)

    g’night

  • J

    Skrillex is what my older son wants to be when he grows up. You can imagine the noise level here.

  • Ted D

    J – “Skrillex is what my older son wants to be when he grows up. You can imagine the noise level here.”

    I started playing drums when I was 14. From that day on, peace and quiet in my house was often scarce. But look on the bright side. It is a good creative outlet, and I read somewhere that music helps with math skills. That may be true for some, but certainly didn’t work for me…

  • J

    Basically, we’re cool with it. Everyone here is musical but me. I’m the designated listener.

  • Ted D

    Just1X – “I feel old now,”

    What did I do? Oh wait, was it that DM was my first electronic band? If it helps, I was into Kraftwerk too, but not until much later. If I was totally honest though, I would have to admit that the very first song that turned me on to synthesizers was “Don’t You Want Me” by Human League. That song got me to the library to figure out exactly what a synthesizer was, and within a year I was building and playing with analog synth circuits. I was 13 at the time I think. Yeah, ’83 sounds about right for that Human League song…

    Would it help if I told you I remember disco, in detail?

  • Ted D

    J – “Basically, we’re cool with it. Everyone here is musical but me. I’m the designated listener.”

    The only person in our house without musical “talent” of some flavor is my SO’s son, so he is our designated listener. And to be honest, it is a bit of chaotic fun having several musical people in the house that listen to different things. Thank God none of us listens to country. That would likely end badly.

  • Valeria

    This is a great post as usual, Susan! This list is helpful but I’m wondering, in your experience, with numbers 5 and 10, how quickly did this compatibility become apparent? Was it right away? After a few dates? After a few weeks? months? One thing that I struggle with when dating is knowing how much time to allow for us to get comfortable and then to see if compatibility will grow or, at least, become more apparent. I never know how much time to give a relationship to grow before it becomes a waste of time.

    • @Valeria

      For me, I think the two criteria are:

      Is this moving forward? Is intimacy growing, and affection with it?

      and

      Are we moving forward at the same pace?

      I think both 5 and 10 are related to that. If you’re feeling a rush of love, and what you see in his eyes is not love but something else, maybe even indifference, then you know you’re in too deep. Conversely, if he’s giving you warm puppy eyes and you’re not invested yet you feel like he’s needy. What you want is to see an expression that matches your own.

  • pennies

    @Susan
    It’s been a bit disappointing — there have been 4-5 NF men I would have happily dated but their breath, the smell of their skin, etc… just not appealing to me. Kind of sour or overly spicy. It’s like my body was making a decision for me…

    @Valeria
    My take on your question about how long to wait: no marriage for at least a year and a half after first meeting. I truly believe that our brain is flooded with chemicals when we are first falling in love. So, we will all act more empathetic, honest, interested, passionate, talkative, caring… Over time, we become more relaxed and comfortable and that’s when you need to assess. After the happy brain flood is over. It’ll be interesting to hear Susan’s perspective on this…

  • pennies

    @Susan

    Do you remember the t-shirt experiment from a while back?

    Summary:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/6/l_016_08.html

    The PBS summary reports, “Overall, the women preferred the scents of T-shirts worn by men whose MHC genes were different from their own.”

    My guess is that there will be further research that indicates that — in the aggregate — humans tend to seek mates that have some degree of neurochemical diversity (which would express itself in terms of personality differences). And diversity in terms of not sharing the same illnesses in their family lines…

    If anyone’s seen research related to this, I would love to see links!

    • @Pennies

      Yes, I wrote about the t-shirt experiment. But what I haven’t seen is the linking of the t-shirts to MB types. I don’t know a great deal about MB – but there is lots of info. about which types pair up romantically together. My husband and I are supposedly a poor match – INTJ and ENFJ. So it’s not foolproof 🙂

  • If anyone’s seen research related to this, I would love to see links!

    I didn’t do research but as fellow member of “some men really stink” I asked my now husband to sent me a sweated T-Shirt (he sent in a Ziploc bag) to my country (LDR) right after we realized we were really compatible and he does smells really good, which gave me green light to continue further. So be patient and try to ask your dates not to wear perfume if you can, perfume can mask the real smell and also make him smell different, that will save both of you time.

  • pennies

    @Anacaona

    “I didn’t do research but as fellow member of “some men really stink” I asked my now husband to sent me a sweated T-Shirt (he sent in a Ziploc bag) to my country (LDR) right after we realized we were really compatible and he does smells really good, which gave me green light to continue further.”

    I LOVE this. I might not have the guts to ask myself…

    I’ve also heard that birth control pills can impair the smell work that needs to be done between potential matches. I don’t remember where/when offhand.

  • I LOVE this. I might not have the guts to ask myself…

    You need to find a store and purchase some guts. Guts are a most have item to win at love, IMO.

    I’ve also heard that birth control pills can impair the smell work that needs to be done between potential matches. I don’t remember where/when offhand.

    I actually only used birth control after hubby and I started to have sex so it was not a problem. I was a whole year with them before getting pregnant but besides messing with my period I never felt a change on his smell. Funny enough there is a brand of organic milk that I bought once because it was on sale (cheap girl here) that made his breath smell awful, funny that.

  • pennies

    Yes, I haven’t seen a thing about Myers-Briggs and biochemistry, but I think those connections will be made soon enough. Just a hunch!

    I think the matching theories are more foolproof for people who have strong preferences for all four categories. If you’re more inclined towards the middle for each of the preferences, I think it matters far less.

  • pennies

    “Funny enough there is a brand of organic milk that I bought once because it was on sale (cheap girl here) that made his breath smell awful, funny that.”

    Activia yogurt did that with my current bf. After a week of trying not to mention it, I told him I would resign as his lady if he didn’t stop eating it. Three years later, I still remember… Gack! What horrible breath! I could not sleep near him until it wore off.

    • None of the guys who eat paleo ever mention it, but supposedly it produces nasty ketone breath. It’s euphemistically described as smelling like nail polish remover.

  • Activia yogurt did that with my current bf. After a week of trying not to mention it, I told him I would resign as his lady if he didn’t stop eating it. Three years later, I still remember… Gack! What horrible breath! I could not sleep near him until it wore off.

    That is funny. Another anecdote I love my little brother very much he once bough a perfume that when he used it made me completely violent towards him like I wanted to slap him till my hand fell off, I never did it of course, but I told him that he should get a refund because his new perfume most be a cheap imitation he checked it and it was original and told me that it had the opposite effect with women, specialy his girlfriend was more affectionated, if you know what I mean towards him, really odd that. I just kept myself away from him till he stopped buying the unholy thing.

    Now I think is the first time I found a fellow “smeller” Are you an ENTJ or a ENFJ? Do you know if your parents are Alpha’s or Betas? Are you a supertaster too? And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?

  • Mike C

    I’ve recently been dragged into Dub Step by my daughter’s minor obsession with Skrillex. As a fan of electronic music from way back

    Ted, I’m a huge fan of electronic music, but I just can’t get into Dub Step. To me, it feels like it is just missing that beat. I’m a Chi-town guy since day 1 so my intro to electronic music was the old school Chicago house from the early 90s. My absolute favorite stuff is the progressive house and electro-house. There is this young kid I just found out about Porter Robinson who just kills it in my opinion….super high energy stuff although he tinkers with some of the Dub Step stuff as well.

    Back when I was bouncing there was one guy who was a local guy who was actually a big name and toured the U.S. and Europe and once in a great while would play one of the dive bars I worked at. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him for a few hours just put together the greatest mixes

    I thought I read somewhere you put stuff together. What kind of style do you focus on?

  • Emily

    >> “4. You have to laugh at the same stuff.”

    It’s getting late where I am so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole post and the comments, but I just wanted to say that this part is very VERY true. I’ve joked to my bf that South Park vs. Family Guy vs. Simpsons should be used as a first date filtering question. (We’re both South Park people. 😛 )

    (And just to clarify: I don’t advocate *actually* rejecting a guy because he likes Family Guy. But it’s very important to have somebody that you can laugh with.)

  • It’s getting late where I am so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole post and the comments, but I just wanted to say that this part is very VERY true. I’ve joked to my bf that South Park vs. Family Guy vs. Simpsons should be used as a first date filtering question. (We’re both South Park people. 😛 )

    Oh that would be disastrous for me and hubby as first date filtering. Do anyone remember when Whoopi Goldberg was dating Ted Danson and he showed up as black face in an event as an inside joke and everyone flipped their underpants in a bunch? That is the sort of humor we have, not something to check on the first date or else the cops will show up.

  • Todd

    Interesting things you’ve learned. However, you must understand that anything connected to the Red Sox is inherently evil. Of course, I’m a Yankee fan, so I might have a few ideas with that. 😉

    Also, I’ve learned to have some appreciation for the Beatles after dating a girl in college. Growing up, I thought of the Beatles are Some Of The Evil People Who Stole Our Music and who must be led off to the gas chambers when the Revolution comes. Now, I think of them as great songwriters who couldn’t really sing. Not great, but it’s an improvement.

    But everyone you date is interesting. I’ve learned a lot about women, their similarities and their quirks. I would definitely say that when you don’t feel it, let it go. The worse thing you can do is try to keep alive a dead relationship.

    • @Todd

      Oh yeah, the Beatles definitely “borrowed” your music. In my view, they made something new, though.

      I agree 100% on getting out of relationships that are just sort of limping along. I think this happens a lot, especially when people (mostly women) fear being single again. I know two women in really mediocre relationships right now, and instead of ending them they are talking about marriage!

  • Todd

    @Susan

    That I never understood. Effort and passion are the hardest things to come by, since I’ve learned we’re more compatible with people than we think. I just never got the point of limping along. I guess inertia is a great aphrodisiac. 🙂

  • Out of topic
    Susan congratulations on making Athol’s new blogroll…not that it surprises me. 😀

  • SayWhaat

    Studies are piling up that show that messy desks are the vivid signatures of people with creative, limber minds

    YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.

    I’ve learned a lot about myself and my boyfriend in our relationship. He’s definitely much more neat and organized than I am. Once or twice I’ve really disappointed him with poor time management. One conversation led to another and I found myself taking a range of psychological tests and — yep — turns out, all this time I’ve just been ADD. For realz.

  • YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.

    You are welcome. 😀
    Is funny that is not a problem for my hubby first I warned him before we got married “Honey I’m a messy person I will not be a home goddess if that is what you want out of a wife” He is not a neat freak thank goodness except for his stuff like tools for miniature painting which I don’t touch for obvious reasons. He has a median Clutter Tolerance Quotient while I have a High Clutter Tolerance Quotient so I suspect that if it was a higher difference we would be in serious problems.

  • Senior Beta

    Beatles? Baseball? Fuck that. College football. Beach Boys. We would never have made it.

    • @Senior Beta

      College football and the Beach Boys are an awesome combo! It might just as easily have been that…

      Funny, while my kids were growing up they loved listening to both the Beatles and the Beach Boys in the car. Lots of accessible melodies and lyrics with both groups.

  • Just1X

    @Ted
    “Would it help if I told you I remember disco, in detail?”

    no, not much. thanks for the offer 🙂

    you can get modern disco with Goldfrapp (Supernature albun) and a touch of Human League with Ladytron (Destroy everything you touch). Disco never died. Not an everyday favourite of mine, but with Donna Summer dying I did enjoy hearing ‘I feel love’ again.

  • JT

    Thank you Aunt Sue!

    This is great advice.
    The only one I would possibly contest is ‘Stoics and emos don’t mix’. But I see your point nonetheless.

    I embrace your advice wholeheartedly on this one 😀

  • Emily

    Haha I loved that messy desk article. I believe very strongly in the distinction between “messy” and “dirty”. 😛

  • pennies

    Ana: “Now I think is the first time I found a fellow “smeller” Are you an ENTJ or a ENFJ? Do you know if your parents are Alpha’s or Betas? Are you a supertaster too? And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?”

    Ana, I’m an ENFP but the E and P are weak. I certainly identify somewhat with some ENFJ qualities too…

    “And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?”

    *Squirm* It’s just fun to think about. 😉

    Parents — I don’t use the alpha/beta terminology with a lot of precision and care so it’s hard to say. My dad was tall, handsome, outgoing, kind of a flirt, and athletic. He was a career salesman and seemed to work hard but was not keen on bringing his job home. He stayed around the house a lot to keep my mom — an extreme introvert — company. So he was always puttering around gardening, building trellises, playing sports with me and my brother. I was more athletic than my super tall brother and I think that was a bit of a disappointment to him because he wanted to train my brother to have basketball and baseball skills. I remember being mortified because he was the only dad who volunteered to chaperone fieldtrips. I dunno – is that alpha or beta to you? Seems like kind of a mix to me. I think if he had wound up with an extroverted woman with more confidence than my mom, he would have had a banging social life, would have drank to excess, and potentially could have had affairs, etc. But my mom seemed pretty determined to keep a lid on that kind of behavior and played the pity card a lot.

    Supertaster — I have a cayenne pepper addiction of sorts and my refrigerator is covered in magnetic spice pots with all sorts of good stuff from an Indian spice market downtown. I’m really into food/cooking. But I’m not sure if I would full-on qualify as a supertaster. I take it you are? That’s cool!

  • Induna

    Dear Susan,

    First of all, let me say “thank you” for another wonderful and insightful article– I’m a new reader, but I’m already finding all your advice enlightening and quite helpful.

    I love how in this article you mentioned the need for passion in a successful relationship; I couldn’t agree more. While I was reading, I reflected on my last long term relationship and realized that my ex and I never fought, and rarely had a heated discussion. We did have several deep, meaningful talks (politics, history, etc.), but everything just seemed to go too smoothly- I didn’t want knock-down-drag-out-for-weeks fights, but a little something besides the flat “Yeah, I agree”– partly because I had always anticipated some conflict in a long term relationship. We ended for other reasons, but that was one thing that had always bothered me. Was I right to let it do so?

    • @Induna

      Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment! I don’t think that passion necessarily means conflict, but I do think that passionate people are more likely to engage in lively discussion and debate. My husband and I do this frequently, but without anger. We don’t personalize it.

      Even if you agree with someone 100%, you still have opponents, and you can talk about what they’re up to 🙂

      In general, any feeling of “flatness” means that the chemistry just isn’t right. You aren’t stimulating each other. You should feel an energy and a motivation to connect. I definitely recommend that as a requirement for any LTR.

  • Abbot
  • you can get modern disco with Goldfrapp (Supernature albun) and a touch of Human League with Ladytron (Destroy everything you touch). Disco never died. Not an everyday favourite of mine, but with Donna Summer dying I did enjoy hearing ‘I feel love’ again.

    Mmm interesting hubby is a fan of electronic music (I’m too newbie to comment on this) and he has those artists on his collection. Never associated them with disco till now…
    PS
    I’m always looking for presents for him so all of you fans feel free to drop a new artist or record when is available so I can surprise him…you know keeping things interesting and winning brownie points in my marriage. 😉

    Funny, while my kids were growing up they loved listening to both the Beatles and the Beach Boys in the car. Lots of accessible melodies and lyrics with both groups.

    I grew up hearing 50’s and 60’s music my father used to play them every sunday so he is always surprised that I can talk his parents music and he is like ????

    Ana, I’m an ENFP but the E and P are weak. I certainly identify somewhat with some ENFJ qualities too…

    Yeah I’m ENFJ but my E is more middle and the F is really low jumping into T once in a while.
    As a note this blog is full of N. I wonder if only N’s can see how things are going between the lines and are looking for info because they know something doesn’t compute…
    Your parents have the same combo than mine father was extroverted mother introverted. I think many people advice against this but I take your parents are still together so are mine, maybe the other generations cannot accommodate the others like old generations did? He does sound Alpha good thing he managed to find someone that moderated his tendencies.
    I’m a supertaster but I didn’t grew up with Indian food so I’m not a fan I’m starting to get into it because hubby loves it. I asked because hubby did connected my “smelling” with my “tasting” and I though there might be a relationship. It doesn’t look like in your case so maybe is just a coincidence.
    Thanks for answering my questions! 😀

  • Just1X

    @Ana wilco, but it’s hard to predict what someone will like. what I listen to wanders around genres. Not all Goldfrapp is disco, I don’t like the majority of Ladytron (but some tracks catch me).

    As I am in an up beat mood (you may have noticed) I think that this is a Dandy Warhols weekend, if you don’t start smiling and tapping along to ‘We used to be friends’, ‘I am over it’, ‘You were the last high’, ‘Bohemian like you’, ‘Holding me up’…then perhaps the zombie apocolypse has already happened…have you got a craving to eat brains?

    Have you tried (I have no idea what has made it in the States):
    Florence and the machine (Lungs – Rabbit Heart / Howl)
    Reverend and the makers (Heavyweight Champion Of The World / The State Of Things / Mermaids)
    Kasabian (first album – catchy & different)

    If you’re looking for something more relaxed, as Susan alluded to above, we talked about music around xmas time IIRC…

  • .this is Jen

    From the men I didn’t marry, I learned I, for sure like a dominant man. I dated some wonderful less than dominant guys, but it was clear after awhile, that they didn’t float my boat.

    Definitely knew I needed a guy I could laugh with.

    Also ilearned that first impressions can change-which was huge for me to realize.

  • pennies

    Yep Ana, my parents have been together about 40 years… 🙂

  • Todd

    @Abbot

    ROTFLMAO! In all seriousness, they are honest about the consequences of casual sex, but they go WAY to the left. All things in moderation. Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.

  • Florence and the machine (Lungs – Rabbit Heart / Howl)
    Reverend and the makers (Heavyweight Champion Of The World / The State Of Things / Mermaids)
    Kasabian (first album – catchy & different)

    Hubby heard the Twilight song Florence did and he said that he though he would like it but for him it went nowhere I will show him a couple of more songs from her to see if it was a problem with the song or the artist. I will copy paste the rest of suggestions on my “gifts for hubby” file.
    Muchas Gracias 🙂

    @pennies
    I can see that at least you have a good example of how people can learn to live with each other differences. Mine had been together for 36, BTW

  • Abbot

    Below is one the match questions on the dating site okcupid. It is on the site only because people submitted the question for the site owner to post as a question for all members and men are absolutely and universally concerned about this.

    You’re in a new relationship and your partner admits that they have had 14 sexual partners. Does that sound like a lot to you?

    Yes, and it makes me uncomfortable.
    I guess, but It doesn’t change how I feel.
    That seems like an average number.
    No, that’s nothing.

    Answers I’ll accept…
    Yes, and it makes me uncomfortable.
    I guess, but It doesn’t change how I feel.
    That seems like an average number.
    No, that’s nothing.

    This question is…
    Irrelevant
    A little important
    Somewhat important
    Very important
    Mandatory

    Explain your answer (optional)

  • Abbot

    Men are really catching on –

    “A guy looking for serious material would have to be pretty desperate to take on a gal who had numerous sex partners. I don’t care if she was young or whatever, it’s jus an excuse to pass it off as if it was normal thing to do. 30,40, 100? If you’re in that category, don’t let the man know, he might just add to the count and say goodby. Most legit serious guys looking for something special would’nt touch you with a 10 foot pole.”

    “If you state that a woman’s worth isn’t in her crotch, then where is it and why aren’t the guys going after that place in stead of her crotch?”

    Ah, and a comment from a female –

    “wow..this is by far the first question to make my blood boil..how many guys have slept around with hundreds of girls and expect to be taken seriously?”

    http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/468949?utm_source=popup&utm_medium=3

    .

  • Michael

    ”.how many guys have slept around with hundreds of girls and expect to be taken seriously?””

    That’s a tool used by many women to divert the man’s attention from the women’s lack of morals.

    ”And for how long men were capable of sleeping with many women?”

    Certainly not my ancestors as our social status wasn’t high. Women like this look at Casanova and Marquis de Sade and their doings and honestly believe all men to be like those guys, because to most women, only the males who are above average in looks/height/muscles and social status are real men, the rest are ”Lets just be friends” material, aka beta orbiters.

    The safest course of action for a man is to assume every woman has had many sexual partners.

    1)He isn’t crushed when he finds out his lovey-dovey girlfriend had more sexual partners than him(lets be honest, beta males aren’t exhausting the supermarket’s condoms reserve).

    2) He doesn’t put his girlfriend in a pedestal. Though, I’ve dated a real virgin(attractive but never had anything to do with men because she was expecting the Alpha males to approach her etc) and she was only conservative in thought and in action because the opportunity to act true to her desires wasn’t there, as soon as Mr. Brad Pitt showed interest, I was dumped faster than the speed of light.

    3) He knows what he can count on. As, the woman clearly does not associate emotional attachment with the men she’s had sex with. If she does, it proves that she’s either emotionally volatile, incapable of commitment, or that she doesn’t know how to screen men for their value as LTR partners and has to use sex to bind to her the man she desires or has low self-esteem.

    4) He learns from her that asymptomatic women can indeed carry HSV-1 and HSV-2 plus the HPV virus without her knowledge and lets be frank, every one has slept with everyone, for the woman we have sex with has had sex with some other guy, that other guy slept with some other chick, thus spreading the endless array of STD’s, being one of the reasons for men not wanting women with high numbers of sexual partners.

    I’d recommend, for the women who want marriage, to stay until the marriage as true virgins. I might as well expect people to care less about money and more about humanity, right?

    • The safest course of action for a man is to assume every woman has had many sexual partners.

      Yes, this will guarantee a life of short-term mating, without the possibility of love. Awesome strategy for the Dark Triad types!

  • Abbot

    “the woman clearly does not associate emotional attachment with the men she’s had sex with. If she does, it proves that she’s either emotionally volatile, incapable of commitment, or that she doesn’t know how to screen men for their value as LTR partners and has to use sex to bind to her the man she desires or has low self-esteem.”

    On every level, men must avoid promiscuous a women no matter how much they justify [grovel for] their worthiness for long term commitment

  • Abbot

    “The safest course of action for a man is to assume every woman has had many sexual partners.”

    More and more that is becoming the default for American women. Tensions are building.

  • Abbot

    “Women like this look at Casanova and Marquis de Sade and their doings and honestly believe all men to be like those guys, because to most women, only the males who are above average in looks/height/muscles and social status are real men, the rest are ”Lets just be friends” material, aka beta orbiters.”

    That is why this whole notion of “learning via dating” is such complete and utter bullshit as it applies to that final life-mate relationship. What exactly have they actually learned? What does this behavior result in such that it makes a positive contribution? What do these women offer in terms of quality [or lack thereof] compared to their counterparts pre 1970?

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    you’re welcome / de rien / por nada(?)

  • Mireille

    Wow, are you guys done lamenting the end of “virgins times”? This is getting old by the minute. I don’t know why spend so much time bad mouthing and shaming women you say you have no interest in dating. I would never do that unless my secret wish was to get with one of them. You need to let it go and focus on more positive traits in a partner.
    People don’t realize what that type of shaming does or says to other people. Even if I’m a very discerning woman with a low count I would never date someone who derives pride and self-esteem from my sexual activity or lack thereof. Just like you would like a woman who feels better about herself because of her boyfriend/husband’s bank account. In any case, you’ll have people lie to you and set yourself up for disappointment. Also, it is another way to put your partner on a pedestal (beta behavior?), and it just creates anxiety for statue and adorer when the fall comes.
    I remember going once on a date where the guy kept making fun of a chubbier lady, saying “at least you’re not like that”, thinking I would take it as a compliment. I never saw him again.

  • Abbot

    “Wow, are you guys done lamenting the end of “virgins times”?”

    Ah, the ol virgin card.

    “Even if I’m a very discerning woman with a low count I would never date someone who derives pride and self-esteem from my sexual activity or lack thereof.”

    Discerning correlates highly with low count and pride and such a woman would absolutely appreciate that her man appreciates that too. If you’re not such a woman then you would not know.

    “You need to let it go and focus on more positive traits in a partner.”

    Why? And who’s opinion is it about what is more or less positive? Oh wait, it must be that “want to have sex on a whim whenever and then have willing husband prospects lined up” gaggle of promiscuous females. Uh huh

    “you’ll have people lie to you and set yourself up for disappointment”

    Why would a woman lie about her cock-count to a man if she considers it to be no big deal, as is so often pontificated only by promiscuous women? Oh, yeah, it must be that chronic “men who go along with such nonsense shortage” again.

    “it just creates anxiety for statue and adorer when the fall comes.”

    SOLUTION – stop lying! How is that going? Will some bad mouthing and shaming get it to stop?

  • Michael

    ”. I don’t know why spend so much time bad mouthing and shaming women you say you have no interest in dating. I would never do that unless my secret wish was to get with one of them. ”

    Once upon a time, older women shamed women into not being sluts. Did you know that originally, only prostitutes used lipstick? It was a definitive marker of the woman’s profession. Suddenly, the vast majority of women began to use lipstick to enhance their beauty and men were left without knowing who was a prostitute and who wasn’t.

    Do you see mothers and grandmothers shaming their daughters and grand-daughters? Have you ever seen a woman in a nightclub being pulled out of the bathroom by her mother because she was there with some dude?

    Do you see the vast majority of women say ”I’m not like that”, or ”not all women are like that” but way too many guys are used/dumped/ignored etc by women? Do you think the vast majority of the women who file for a divorce go into their marriages while saying to their husbands ” I’m gonna cheat on you, I’m gonna steal your money ,and I’m gonna make you beg for sex?”

    Lady, this might seem strange to you but I’ll tell you nonetheless. I belong the male sex of the human species. That means that no one looks out for me, but myself, I, and me again. Millions of young men don’t know how to discern good women from bad women because most women make it a point to let us know that they have breasts and sexy lingerie as underwear.

    No grandmother of mine is telling me to stay away from bar girls. Actually, nowadays most mothers and grandmothers encourage their beta grandsons and sons to give commitment to women who clearly do not deserve it. Like, she has a vagina, she deserves the world.

    Do you see articles beyond the MGTOW crowd looking out for male interests? Nope. Not even the PUA have the best interest of men as their goal.

    So excuse me, and the other guys here for warning young men to think with their heads and how to go about it.

  • Michael

    And if I am sickly obsessing over the bad apples found in the crop of my generation of women, it’s because most women aren’t going to lift a finger to work in construction, to become surgeons, to become soldiers, or to do anything beyond reproduction. What is there, then, to evaluate women with?

    She has a great job? Great. I’ll have to have an ever greater job because of her hypergamy. Is she highly educated(A degree in History, Art, or photography do not count)? Do I have to spend countless thousands of dollars so that an average looking woman bothers to look at me?

    What for? I look sideways and I see lots and lots of psychologists and the(very few) female engineers dating and having children with cads and Brad Pitts.

    Really , even at the age of 20, at the height of my hormonal prison I look at the women around me, many are highly attractive and as soon as they start talking I grow incredibly bored and can’t hold on to the attraction I previously felt for them, but good luck in finding an educated woman who ain’t looking for Donald Trump or a Ford model.

    Do you like that one better? That I focused on average women instead of doing it on not-so-modest women?

  • Abbot

    “warning young men to think with their heads and how to go about it.”

    Men increasingly are. That is why high N women lie. Can’t blame them. They are finally catching on that men universally do NOT want to marry sluts. So these desperate love lorn women become pedestal impostors due to the chronic shortage of men who are comfortable with their prior behavior.

  • Is Sunday people let’s have something light or a change:
    FIFTY SHADES OF GREY KARAOKE TIME!
    http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/50-shades-of-grey-karaoke-62012/1407101

  • Mireille

    The question is if women like you say are so cunning and smart at adapting and modifying their appearance, why broadcast to who wants to hear that this sex count is your weakness? Women who swear they will never ever fall for it again end up being targeted by the same players. My point is most of you who claim to shame promiscuous women will probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely. If you cannot tell between a prostitute and a “decent” woman, then you are not really making the required efforts to get to know someone, period. And those grandmothers were more worried about intrasexual competition than for the actual well-being of these girls, but 2 birds, 1stone so… All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive. I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past. The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it, there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. You don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either; there, case solved. Move on!!!

  • Michael

    ”Men increasingly are. ”

    Even the men who are highly sexually successful with women do not want anything to do with the women who don’t repress their hypergamy or have high numbers of sexual partners.

    I know quite a few casanovas who’ll have sex with women who seem and conduct their lives in a respectful manner, but if the casanovas find out the women they slept with, who were for all accounts good women, had boyfriends at the time; they will not date them. Feelings for the woman or not, even the ”manwhores” cannot go past the deceit the women used on them.

    This physiological and emotional scenario of losing ALL of the lust previously felt for very attractive women from the discovery of her low morals must be part of an evolutionary step devised by our male ancestors to not end up raising the children of some other dude. Tell you what, I think the cavemen were far more in touch with the nature of women and with what women really want than most psychologists, marriage counselors and social scientists could ever be, and know.

    ”That is why high N women lie. Can’t blame them. They are finally catching on that men universally do NOT want to marry sluts.”

    Words are just words. I once was played by a very intelligent and decent looking woman but after seeing what she was about, her actions and how she reacted to thugs/Casanovas/PUA’s I had clarity of mind in sufficient order to tell her to take a hike. Man, was she pissed. One thing is to be rejected by an Alpha male, another is to be vehemently told to stay the heck away from me by the dude who was reared by this feminist society to take it up the butt and support/give commitment to a non-decent woman.´

    Even a baby can tell when someone’s lying to it. I was raised to be a beta male and even with sexual frustration on my mind and on my body I never went along with what High N women wanted me to do.

    Heck, I’ve met a few decent looking girls who must have very low to none sexual partners(spent all of their lives in boarding schools for girls) and still, with the lack of situations to have the(as the MGTOW crowd calls it a thousand cock stare, they are still just as predictable as the High N women.

  • Michael

    ”Women who swear they will never ever fall for it again end up being targeted by the same players. ”

    Women targeted by players? I see women being targeted by players like I see the numberless salesmen or come to my dad’s door to sell him the newest invention by some unknown Tesla(their words). My dad invites them in, puts a beer in front of the dudes and bulshits the sellers so much they end up leaving my dad’s house without any item sold, and hours wasted.

    Aren’t women designed to distinguish the guys who want to play for free from the guys who are interested in building a family with them?

    Can you explain how the most educated group of women the world has ever produced(western white women and black women), the women who grow up next to males all of their lives before going to high school and initiating the hookup culture with the Alpha males left this recess of experience of being near the males and seeing how they are, suddenly lose all of their INBORN capacity to distinguish cads from providers(here’s a tip; 6 feet tall or taller? Muscular build? Teeth sparkling like diamonds? Maybe he’s not a provider. If most women think that way, better stop stealing their older brother’s superman collection)?

    I don’t understand how my grandmother who was raised by her mother because my great-grandfather died in the war knew what young men of Alpha capacity were about and instead of enjoying the fruits of her beauty, chose the dude who wasn’t as noticeably, but already had a paying job at the age of 14 and by age 20 was a senior in a well-off company?

    Ok, this is getting long. Players don’t target women. Women target players. You don’t have to go into deep sea to fish when women crowd the shore to pick you, and then complain that there are no good men left or that I ”got played” by the player. Yes, and the dentist played me out of my cash because I was too lazy to brush after eating a bunch of sugar.

  • Michael

    ”ou don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either; there, case solved. Move on!!!”

    That’s not the point.. the point is that the vast majority of males in their teens and in their early 20’s cannot tell which is which because most women dress like they’re heading for a Victoria’s secret convention, every day, and the kids mother’s and grandmothers do not tell them to stay apart from the women who are bad for them, nor do they teach the young men how to distinguish what is good for them from what is bad for them, and the kids fathers are too busy working to make sure their wives do not get all hypergamous on them, or have been kicked out by their wives and are forced to stay away from their own kids..

  • Abbot

    “sex count is your weakness”

    Then, of course it behooves men to eliminate the weakness, no?

    “who claim to shame promiscuous women ”

    By merely not marrying them. Yes that is shaming and has been going on for a long time.

    “probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely”

    If that is the case, it will mainly be lying pedestal impersonators. PI’s abound now in the US

    “All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive”

    Ah, the ol shame men for having agency. Yawn.

    “I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past.”

    That is the most logical statement yet. But somehow a man is a shamre if he derives pride when declining to commit to a woman with whatever past action give him discomfort.

    “The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it,”

    So then men are lying to women about their number? Women almost never ask so that is, well, bullshit.

    “there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”

    This is true. It was already stated above in this post that the assumption is all Western women are promiscuous no matter what they say. All an American man can do, if he does not venture to where the other 95% of women live, is get a sense of comfort through slut tells before he goes to far with her. Not easy as women have become quite crafty.

    “You don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either”

    Unfortunately for promiscuous women, nearly all men they encounter after being displaced from the harem were not anywhere near as promiscuous. So what’s a girl to do?

  • An extension to Susan’s list, based on my own experiences:

    “If one person is psychologically ‘messy’ (read: neurotic, moody) and the other person is psychologically ‘clean’, the messy person compromises.”

    There are some tests in the sports psychology field that can help to determine someone’s level of neurotic absorption, and these batteries are apparently useful in predicting how an athlete will handle stressful “clutch” roles. In a sports environment, you train that person in mental toughness or get rid of him/her, but you certainly don’ t allow the drama queen to throw the game.

    In an emotionally-unstable LTR, perverse incentives can exist for the participant with the lower psychological self-mastery to impose costs on the other, usually by behaving in a theatrical manner, expressing negative affect, etc. (I’m not talking about genuine life crisis events here, like the loss of a close friend or family member).

    There are various possible solutions, I guess… For example, men and women could screen for mates that have demonstrated an ability to handle extreme stress while remaining composed. In addition, the person prone to meltdowns should take responsibility and realize how this ends up training the other person to want to avoid him/her.

    Failing this, the party may need some kind of failsafe that automatically kicks in to quarantine the meltdown (avoid co-habitation with an unstable person, obviously, as that removes all slack from the system and makes contagion unavoidable).

    • @Bastiat

      In an emotionally-unstable LTR, perverse incentives can exist for the participant with the lower psychological self-mastery to impose costs on the other, usually by behaving in a theatrical manner, expressing negative affect, etc.

      I don’t think the moody neurotic is capable of compromise. Their world view is very set, and very negative, and you can enter it or not. In my experience, people like this don’t cross over to the healthy side very easily, if at all.

      So why do stable people not just walk away from people like this? I can speak to the female motivation – the challenge of nurturing that person into “opening up” or compromising. What’s dangerous about this is that there often are short-term rewards – the person responds with warmth and openness, and briefly enjoys the resulting intimacy. It’s like infatuation though – it doesn’t last and they usually can’t make the leap to something real and lasting.

      When I’ve asked men why they get involved with moody and neurotic women, 95% of the time they tell me it’s because crazy chicks are good in bed. I don’t get it – how sex with a low self-esteem woman could be good more than once or twice at most. But I’m not a guy, so I just accept that at face value.

      The risk/reward on any kind of a relationship with a headcase is very high. For women, it never makes sense. For men, perhaps just for casual, although there’s always the risk of a Fatal Attraction type situation.

      Helen Fisher has said that dopamine-chasers tend to get together. That makes sense to me – keep all the crazy in one house.

  • Jackie

    @BastiatBlogger
    Hi Bastiat,
    I really liked your comment! Though nothing is “failsafe” when it comes to human beings, a few character markers come to mind:

    *Observe their actions under stress –maybe not “extreme– but what do they do during a big project at work? Or even in traffic? Someone messing up their order? How do they handle low grade stress (traffic, etc) versus high grade (performance review, etc). Very telling, in my experience

    *Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).

    They should still treat the cleaning lady like a lady, you know?

    *Observe how they narrate the story of their own life. “Victim mentality” = red flag!

    I have been compiling a list “Why Mr. Rochester from _Jane Eyre_ is a 19th century Player.” (Some of the teen girls I am mentoring are reading the book and think J + Mr. R is awesome. 🙁 )

    Before you find out about the cross-dressing, the attempted bigamy, a wife locked in the attic, the manipulation of other woman (Blanche) believing he intends marriage (which is only done to make Jane jealous), or the age difference (40-something guy going after 18 year old employee = creepy); the “victim mentality” is evident from their first long conversation.

    Rochester says, “… I like to lay half the blame on ill fortune and adverse circumstances) was thrust on to a wrong tack at the age of one-and-twenty, and have never recovered the right course since: but I might have been very different; I might have been as good as you—wiser—almost as stainless… When fate wronged me, I had not the wisdom to remain cool: I turned desperate; then I degenerated. ”

    This is telling because he is abdicating responsibility to “fate.” We all get wronged by “fate” sometimes; life is not fair. But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.

  • Jackie

    @SayWhaat

    “Studies are piling up that show that messy desks are the vivid signatures of people with creative, limber minds

    YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.”

    Haha, me too! By that standard, I may be bordering on genius. 😉 OK, time to stop by Flylady.net for inspiration!

  • Jackie

    @Todd

    ” Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.”

    Todd, this is an extremely astute comment. I wonder if any of the guys will recognize this pattern in themselves? *coughAbbotcough*

  • Jackie

    @Mireille

    Hi Mireille!
    I think I’ve seen you commenting here before– from France, right? 🙂 I engaged with Abbot earlier on the “Economists Study Marriage Market” thread.

    He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are “good for casual.” He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men. And as long as women can get HPV unknowingly from guys (there is no test for men currently), that is a REALLY cruddy viewpoint to promote.

    The way I see it, sluttiness knows no gender. YMMV, as Anacoana would say. 🙂

  • Abbot

    ” Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.”

    Todd, this is an extremely astute comment. I wonder if any of the guys will recognize this pattern in themselves?”

    Now “repression” is being added to the arsenal that describes what men do when they QUIETLY dismiss promiscuous women as long term mating prospects. Nice. Predictable.

  • Abbot

    “He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are “good for casual.”

    He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are proactively attempting to get pregnant and sue for child support.

    There now its fixed

  • Abbot

    “He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men”

    and women. Sluts are beloved.

  • Jackie

    @Abbot

    Hi Abbot,
    Do you think Todd was wrong? Why or why not?

    Listen, Abbot, I really want to like you: You don’t “prude shame” and think women who wait are worth it. That is so awesome!

    But when you promote lying and when you promote casual sex for men, all I see is the face of my friend (who waited for marriage) and contracted an STI from her husband. If he hadn’t slept around, she wouldn’t have been infected.

    The day you stop promoting casual sex for men will be a great day, and you will definitely have my support!

  • Abbot

    The recasters and balance redressers are out in full force today. Like old times.

  • Abbot

    “stop promoting casual sex for men ”

    ONLY women get to decide if there will be any sex in any form for men and that typically leads to sex for less than 20% of men. Men don’t get to decide. Thems the breaks…

  • Jackie

    @Abbot
    Hi Abbot,
    Aren’t you married? To a woman who saved herself for you? You two can have all the sex you want, no one is getting diseases and both of you are happy. Right?

    Why aren’t you advocating THAT instead of casual sex for men?

  • Jackie

    @Abbot
    ““He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men”

    and women. Sluts are beloved.”

    Who here is calling sluts “beloved”? When have I ever said this? I am not a fan of sluttery– and I commented that it “knows no gender.”

    More to the point, how is anything I’ve said inaccurate?
    You *do* promote casual sex and sluttery for men.
    You do hate sluttery for women.

  • Abbot

    If men did not always say yes to casual sex with women, what would all those liburated women do who are sooo in need of expressing themselves? It would be a disaster for them and all their career aspirations…

  • Jackie

    @Abbot

    “Just say no”– you will kill two birds with one stone.

  • Abbot

    “Who here is calling sluts “beloved”?”

    Many on this site have stated such. And its true. Men love sluts. Why wouldn’t they?

    “You do hate sluttery for women.”

    No, that makes no sense at all

  • Jackie

    @Abbot

    Abbot, there’s probably nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. I do want to thank you again for sticking up for those of us wish to wait. We definitely need all the support we can get. 🙂

    Good luck and best wishes to you, Abbot–

  • Abbot

    “Just say no”

    With all the pill laden, expression desperate naked bodies being thrown at some men it does not seem possible for them to say no. And if they did, what will come of the poor career-minded wait-until-after-30-to-marry female crowd?

  • Michael

    ”“sex count is your weakness””

    A weakness that porn is helping young men come to terms with. It’s quite telling when you are in your sexual prime, surrounded by very attractive women, but feel no attraction to them if you’ve fapped before going to school. With the average young man finding porn sooner and sooner and becoming increasingly used to it as his only source of sexual outlet, the next generation is going to defeat their natural weakness.

    I even see women my age complaining that men aren’t men anymore, that they don’t approach. The Alpha males and the PUA’s do so, but women want the beta male to approach them for that ego validation and free stuff.

    “who claim to shame promiscuous women ”

    More specifically calling the attention to the behavior of women. This blog is dedicated to women endeavors in finding eligible men to marry them, but men must stay away from bad women to prevent being spoiled..

    “probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely”

    lol, ain’t that one funny. I don’t know any guy my age who is interested in co-habitation with a woman, let alone marriage. I number quite a few men in their 30’s who are either doing the serial monogamy without co-habitation or going John Gault. Marriage doesnt’ seem to be in the plans of the vast majority of the male population, in the states or in Europe.

    All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive”

    Speaking one’s mind correlates with being feminine? Some of the most masculine looking guys I’ve met bitched more than my 8 year old cousin and let me tell that these guys never had to hunt for sex.

    Or is this a tactic to have me defend my manhood? lol, I am not a man. I am a citizen of the world.. I am not defined by how women or men perceive me as being, but how good I feel about myself, so if I believe that I am as manly as Dave Bautista, I have to be, or Dove commercials are wrong..

    “I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past.”

    Women can control their sex lives, yet they claim being the targets of Players, and as if being the target of a person or an organization that wants to derive some sort of compensation for interacting with you escapes the realm of decision, made by women.

    See, when I went to visit my German cousin I was constantly accosted by women who were clearly prostitutes, rather good looking ones, too. I refused every one of them. Sure, I’d have to pay for it, but the very modest price required by the typical German hooker is akin to the lack of price on the sex offered by average and hot women, to Alpha males and thugs.

    I have absolute control over my own sexual urges – this, despite being in my 20’s and having 10 times more testosterone than ALL women. I expect a woman to guide her life according to a set of rules, no promiscuity, no thugs, no PUA’s, no Alphas.

    Is it too much to ask? from the sex equal to my own?

    “The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it,”

    You’re referring to men raising their numbers and women lowering theirs. It makes sense. The more women a man has bedded the more social proof he has, hence his increase in access to sex. Women, not so much. It’s impossibly easy for a below average woman to have sex.

    “there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”

    Yes, there is. It teaches you to be weary and to not give your heart away.

    “there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”

    If only that was true. Women in their 30’s approach me and try to lay the whole ”commitment” talk, of course I don’t sleep with them. Nasty. After riding the Alpha lollipop for 15 years only God knows what STD’s they’re harboring. Plus, I was never a fan of using public toilets.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Michael

    I expect a woman to guide her life according to a set of rules, no promiscuity, no thugs, no PUA’s, no Alphas.

    What’s wrong with Alphas?

  • Michael

    ”What’s wrong with Alphas?”

    I’m not interested in leftovers.

  • Just1X

    @Michael #116

    Great stuff, well said.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Michael

    I’m not interested in leftovers.

    That makes no sense.

    That sentiment assumes that all women who have been involved with alphas have been promiscuous.

    I have never understood this sentiment towards alpha males or the women who date them.

    Most men seem to want to date attractive or very attractive women. It makes the most sense to believe that very attractive women date very attractive men, or alphas. Very attractive women’s assortative mating counterparts would be alpha males.

    Why would you hold it against a woman if she has dated alpha males? Notice how I said date, not merely sleep with. Those are different circumstances.

    I’m not promiscuous, by any means, but I date alphas. The mere fact that I’ve had a relationship with an alpha is considered unsavory to you?

    You don’t want alpha “leftovers”, but how likely is it for an attractive woman to not have dated an equally attractive man in the past?

  • Just1X

    @Sassy

    I doubt many men would be too troubled by AN alpha, but from previous discussions here, it emerged that men don’t like women with high numbers (exceptions exists NA*ALT). Every notch comes at a price.

    Michael describes men not interested in the judgement of others (I’d call it MGTOW), they are unlikely to be shamed into changing their minds about this issue. Men tend to have less of a herd instinct than women, they are more prone to thinking independently. (Roissy / Chateau Heartiste posted fairly recently about research supporting the concept of ‘team woman’).

    Women are entitled to ignore this, just don’t start complaining later if it affects you. Men get to make choices right along with women.

    Reading this blog would suggest that you’re not a believer in ‘pretty lies’ – good for you

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    I doubt many men would be too troubled by AN alpha, but from previous discussions here, it emerged that men don’t like women with high numbers (exceptions exists NA*ALT). Every notch comes at a price.

    I’ve known about men’s qualms with promiscuous women for awhile now. What I don’t understand is the qualm with the alpha male component of it.

    Michael said that he doesn’t want a woman who has been with an alpha at all, even if it was in the form of a relationship. His qualm is with the alpha, which is what is confusing me.

    I’ve often wondered if men would have an easier time handling a woman’s past if she has only ever been involved with betas. What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.

    Maybe it’s about competition or something.

  • Sassy, I don’t think there is anything wrong with you preferring alphas. Your honesty is quite refreshing.

    I for one believe that romantic/sexual attention from the alpha is at the very least a private, guilty pleasure for even the most publicly-critical women: one can be in a heated discussion with an arch-feminist and politely interrupt to ask her if she would like to continue the conversation over dinner, and watch her whole expression change back to a certain charming schoolgirl look—self-conscious hair manipulation, the aversion of the eyes, the shy smile, the slight change in body language, etc. The geopolitical tirades and strident anti-playboy remarks go right out the window (hence the quick NARS touch-ups in the bathroom, the adjustment of cleavage for effect, and so on).

    That said, I want to agree with Michael about the strategic use of fapping. I think of porn as a mechanism for finding satori.

  • Just1X

    @Sassy

    I’m afraid I wouldn’t differentiate, so I can’t answer you here.

    I’m just chuffed that there appears to be another MGTOW around (assuming that’s how he chooses to identify).

    But it’s late and we just lost to Italy on penalties, bollocks!

    mout for tonight

  • Just1X

    @Michael

    porn ain’t just for you darned tooting whipper snappers, dag nabbit

    Porn. Adding clarity of thought and independance of mind to men of all ages since the birth of ‘top shelf’ cave paintings and fertility goddess statuettes.

    (g’night for real)

  • Michael

    ”I’m just chuffed that there appears to be another MGTOW around (assuming that’s how he chooses to identify).”

    Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.

    • Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.

      SayWhaat got flamed for making this joke. Is anyone going to take Michael to task?

  • Mike C

    ’ve often wondered if men would have an easier time handling a woman’s past if she has only ever been involved with betas. What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.

    Sassy,

    Firstly, as I’ve stated previously I reject the notion of classifying a guy as either an alpha or beta. I especially think it is extremely damaging for a guy to think of himself as a “beta” because then he has imposed limitations on personal growth (such as learning to be more assertive or aloof).

    That said, I’ll take a stab at your question here. First, go back over the last couple of threads and find the comments by Tasmin. He has had some kick ass comments that address part of this.

    Here’s the issue. A woman like yourself has a stated preference for men who demonstrate more alpha qualities (such as a guy who rides a motorcycle instead of driving a mini-van). Other women may have a revealed preference for more alpha like behaviors over many years of their dating history. So if they wake up one day and all of sudden decide they will date men with more beta behaviors, the first logical question is WHY? Why has there been a change in preference.

    For many guys who are more beta, what it really smacks of is settling for second best. The women in question cannot get the more alpha type guy to commit, so they go for the guy who actually will commit. He is the consolation prize.

    Now we can debate for eternity how accurate and/or prevalent this is. I have my opinion, Susan has her opinion, other women here have their opinions. Irrespective of the accuracy, this is the mindset of the more beta guy. He has the lingering insecurity he is being chosen because she can’t get what she really wants. And this insecurity is much higher if the woman has a long history of only dating alpha men.

    Hopefully, this helps you in understanding what the male psychology at play here is.

    Me personally, I don’t bring the anti alpha male mindset many MEN and women bring here, because I’ve had many positive experiences with more alpha men, and I’ve seen many of their attributes as something to shoot for, not something to bemoan. For many men, the root of the negativity is jealousy and envy.

  • Jackie…”Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).”

    Yes. Very well put.

  • Esau

    Jackie at 99: “We all get wronged by “fate” sometimes; life is not fair. But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.”

    I certainly agree with both of these statements; but I doubt sincerely whether a person’s response to unfairness “tells” you the same thing that it tells me.

    Tell me, now: do you understand there to be a difference between fairness and justice, or are they synonymous to you? In the latter case, I foresee a great career future for you as the social director at Devil’s Island….

  • Jackie

    @david foster (@129)

    Hi David,

    Thank you, good sir! 🙂 I thought of that wonderful story of leadership from your blog– about the doctor supervising at the hospital who knew the janitor, his family, and their social situation . Your blog is awesome!

  • Jackie

    @Esau (#130)
    “Tell me, now: do you understand there to be a difference between fairness and justice, or are they synonymous to you? In the latter case, I foresee a great career future for you as the social director at Devil’s Island….”

    Hi Esau!
    Are you psychic? I ask because my sister and I were just discussing this hours ago! Specifically the “Just World” fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)

    To answer your question: No, they are not synonymous. Justice is defined as “the administering of deserved punishment or reward.” Fairness, “the state, condition, or quality of being fair, or free from bias or injustice.”

    My mom’s cotillion training has prepared me for even greater heights than social directory of a penal colony. I believe I shall aim higher, Esau, and aspire to better things. 🙂

  • Jackie

    PS: Although, how great is this quote for those who do believe in a “just world”:

    “Though the mills of God grind slowly, they grind exceedingly fine.” (supposedly attributed to Friedrich von Logau)

  • *Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).

    This is a very overlooked advice nowadays. Is easy for a man to treat you “nice” when he has the hots for you now when things go to a calmer place that is when he shows his true colors. I never got the concept that women want the Alpha to be nice to them and them only, that shows a lot of poor planning, disregard for other’s feelings and in the end it doesn’t work once the passion dissappears or he develops a strong passion for another woman, that lady is totally screwed up, YMMV.

    Haha, me too! By that standard, I may be bordering on genius. OK, time to stop by Flylady.net for inspiration!

    As starting my training for SHAM I consulted that site…months ago…I still haven’t shined my sink…So yeah baby steps…like ant’s babies size :p

  • Senior Beta

    Michael- well said. But it’s John Galt. He has a few fans, still.

  • Jackie

    Hi Ana!

    Here are the baby steps for you, they are called “Fly-ing Lessons” 😉
    Stuff you can do, 15 minutes or less
    http://www.flylady.net/d/getting-started/flying-lessons/

    🙂

  • Jackie

    PS: If it helps, make an awesome cleaning playlist for your iPod. It really helps me.

    Also: If people give you lots of extra stuff (money) for the baby shower, getting someone to help around the house once a week is totally worth it. One of my friends who had a baby got that as a gift, plus some other stuff. She said it was really nice to have someone show up and take care of it, since she was so tired and overwhelmed.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    I’ve learned that I am “marriage material.” This has been reiterated by nearly every boyfriend I’ve had. Ironically, none of them ever proposed, so does that count as a valid lesson? lol.

    • @Royale

      I’ve learned that I am “marriage material.” This has been reiterated by nearly every boyfriend I’ve had. Ironically, none of them ever proposed, so does that count as a valid lesson? lol.

      A lot of college women have told me that guys have told them, “You’re the kind of girl I want to bring home to meet my parents some day.”

      Of course, the implication is clear – “Right now I want to spend time with girls my mom would disapprove of.”

      I suspect it’s the same with the guys you mention – are they going on to marry someone else? Or is being “marriage material” a disqualifier?

  • Infantry

    ‘What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.’

    Sassy, this is my first comment on HUS and I thought I’d chime in here.

    Mike C’s done a good job of responding, but I would add to it. Its not just the idea of being ‘second best’. Its the idea that once a woman has ‘dated’ an alpha, a beta will never be enough. Roissy has commented on this with the ‘5 minutes of alpha’ theory. I suggest you google for that phrase and read various posts about it.

    She will not be able to properly pair bond with the beta because he won’t excite her enough. This makes the relationship less enjoyable for both of them and also makes it more likely that she will leave or cheat if another alpha swans into her life because she will know what she is missing.

    You yourself have stated a preference for alphas. Nothing wrong with that, but I’m guessing you already know that betas will never be enough for you. I’d suggest that every alpha a girl dates makes her less emotionally available for betas. Roissy’s hyperbole explains this. Betas sense it deep down, but when they react to it, its shamed as ‘insecurity’.

    Susan Walsh’s history aside, we’ve all come across examples of women pining away for the exciting man of their past; the one who got away. Even when they get married they think about him and he holds prime position in their hearts.

    • @Infantry

      Welcome, and thanks for commenting.

      Susan Walsh’s history aside, we’ve all come across examples of women pining away for the exciting man of their past; the one who got away. Even when they get married they think about him and he holds prime position in their hearts.

      Can you expand on this? If you’ve “come across examples” it seems illogical to extrapolate from there to AWALT. There are a number of factors which suggest this is not the case for most women:

      1. Alphas comprise 20% of less of the population.

      2. Committed alphas comprise far less than that.

      Therefore —-> very few women have been in relationships with alphas.

      3. Research demonstrates very clearly that certain types of women are alpha chasers – specifically women with a “short-term mating orientation,” aka sluts. Roissy himself has written about this, I believe.

      4. Data on sexual partner counts shows that 90% of men and women have a low partner count, i.e. less than 3. This is true in college and afterwards.

      Therefore —–> very few women have had sex with alphas.

      I hear this claim all the time in the ‘sphere, but I have yet to see one shred of evidence that more than a small minority of women have this mythical alpha in their past. Can you provide it?

  • M3

    I’m just gonna chime in once and split.

    ‘What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.’

    Quite frankly i think it’s got diddly squat to do with alphas. I mean really… who asks their partner “So… how many alpha’s did you sleep with?”

    The only thing that really matters is partner count plain and simple. And whether it was an alpha or beta or omega… to the person you’re currently with, they ALL had to have been something important to you and here’s why.

    Badger made a comment of supreme revelation to me which i’m going to put up here unmolested.

    From Badger:
    That’s the difference in our agendas. And women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”

    F that noise. It also puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that sex is REALLY REALLY DEEP and IMPORTANT to women, and they won’t give it away except to a guy they think is a really good match. Women want to have sex with men that turn them on. A lot of them can’t say no even when the guy is very bad for them; I’ve come to realize that women’s complaint about men “thinking with their little head” is projection.

    See, what women fail to understand is that EVERY guy they let inside them is one step of devaluation for the next guy in the line. Sex is the most precious, ULTIMATE gift a woman can grant a man, and the more you’ve had with countless partners, be it alpha or otherwise, you’re cheapening that gift. And men will respond appropriately.

    Quite frankly the case could be made that every man a woman sleeps with is Alpha for at least that moment in time, unless she’s mercy fucking the dude. But this whole idea of knowing how many alpha’s she’s done is like trying to figure out how many 2 bit whores vs. christian good girls a player has fucked. Does it matter?

    Bottom line, the more you give away your most precious gift as a woman.. the less a man will be willing to view you as special or worthy enough to commit to.

    Listen to the Badger. It’s angry and it knows it’s shit.

  • Abbot

    “she will know what she is missing”

    So much for that asinine “promiscuous women are better because they know they are not missing anything” dumb ass self serving justification coming from, uh yeah, promiscuous women. Go figure

    “betas will never be enough”

    Sorta sucks cuz all the alphas have left the building

    “every alpha a girl dates makes her less emotionally available for betas”

    But she is quite available to lie about such “dates”

    “when they react to it, its shamed as ‘insecurity’”

    IOW it “sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive” IOW take the cock I took like a man!

  • So true about the staring into your partners eyes. I once dated this guy for a long awhile, simply because we got along and it was easy. But whenever I tried to stare into his eyes I felt empty no matter how hard I tried and I feared he felt the same way I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. The eye test is accurate.

  • Mike C

    From Badger:
    That’s the difference in our agendas. ****And women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man**** – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”

    Badger truly is supremely gifted at taking a complicated concept and distilling and articulating it perfectly. The part I bolded and asterisked is essentially the entire crux of the issue when women treat different men differently in terms of sexual access.

    I’ve pondered why this concept seems so difficult for women to understand. I think I understand what is going on here. It is really a combination of solipsism and projection.

    As I’ve said a number of times, any women who isn’t beastly can have sex anytime she wants. Just walk in to a bar, and ask “Which one of you guys want to fuck me tonight”? On the other hand, getting a decent guy to lock it down with her for commitment is much harder.

    So. She assumes the guy’s value/priority system is EXACTLY the same as hers. In her mind, to want a guy for long-term boyfriend material is assigning higher value to him than just short-term sex because that is the value system FOR HER.

    What Badger articulates above is perhaps one of the most misunderstood concepts I think amongst many women which is also accompanied by a rejection to really want to understand it.

    This also gets to issue of a woman changing up her policy on “sexual access”. You see quite often a woman writing in about all the casual sex of hooking up she did, but now she wants to play it different with the potential boyfriend candidate. I really don’t have any good advice in that situation. It goes without saying that any women has the complete right to change her price anytime she wants, but you can’t blame a guy for deciding to walk. Its really a complicated situation with no clear-cut answer to resolution.

    • @Mike C, @M3

      From Badger:
      That’s the difference in our agendas. ****And women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man**** – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”

      The problem with this statement in that it is not congruent with Badger’s Ladder Theory. On one hand, Badger suggests that men will rank women as either sluts or relationship prospects solely on the basis of when they respond to the male’s sexual escalation. One the other hand, he will not tolerate any sexual delay, as evidenced by this, one of his last comments at HUS:

      Badger: It’s much more congruent to adopt the whole red pill at once – go out approaching like mad, push for sex, crush shit tests, assume she’s a slut, etc.

      This represents an “about face” that I have never seen Badger address. In this comment he resolves to focus entirely on the slut ladder, denying the existence of a LTR-quality ladder altogether. For if there is one, and there are some number of women on it, then assuming they’re sluts would be highly counterproductive. This strategy is a casual sex strategy – a shift toward “spinning plates”, which usually manifests as narcissism and disregard for the feelings of others, as it is entirely focused on ego reinforcement and personal pleasure.

      Badger: You need to destroy the beta and then reintroduce it gradually. Anyway, the ability of women to forgive a reformed player seems infinite if he’s attractive so I don’t see a lot of downside for a guy to take a break from his beta ways and see how the other half lives.

      In my view, the destroyed beta is no phoenix. When a man kills off the part of himself that sees at least some women as good and worthy, it is gone forever. One doesn’t take a break to assume women are sluts and then go back to assuming they’re not. Especially since that involves spending 100% of your energy on sluts, and getting 100% of your positive results from sluts.

      I do not believe the reformed player exists. The word player speaks to the man’s intent. In and of itself it connotes a way of relating to women that sacrifices their well-being for your own, via persuasion, deception and manipulation. The female’s role or agency here is immaterial – I am speaking entirely of the intent of the male, and what means he is willing to employ to get sex.

      There may be men who resolve to stop being players or PUAs in order to have a meaningful relationship, marriage, fatherhood, etc. They are bad bets for marriage, as we know that they are unlikely to be sexually satisfied in a monogamous marriage. They cheat and divorce at significantly higher rates. At worst, they cheat, and at best, you wind up married to a guy who wishes he could. A woman would do well do evaluate potential husbands by sexual partner count.

      Having said that, there are good and generous men who are naturally gifted with women, but who may make excellent husbands. Conversely, there are low-empathy “manufactured” players who may have much lower N but are terrible marriage prospects. As always, YMMV, which is why it is important to select partners on a wide variety of criteria.

      A good rule of thumb is to disqualify any man who even knows the phrase “spinning plates.”

  • Infantry

    Me personally, I don’t bring the anti alpha male mindset many MEN and women bring here, because I’ve had many positive experiences with more alpha men, and I’ve seen many of their attributes as something to shoot for, not something to bemoan. For many men, the root of the negativity is jealousy and envy.

    Once guys are more progressed with the red pill they often strive to be more alpha. This is good on the whole and something to aim towards especially with traits such as confidence and assertiveness. Some other commonly defined ‘alpha’ traits such as low impulse control or low agreeableness aren’t necessarily good, which like you’ve said brings up the problem with using ‘alpha’ as a label. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we use the word.

    The ‘game’/red pill theory I subscribe to is that of constant self improvement. Rather than complaining about what women want, work at improving yourself until you can attract them and keep them. Its worked well for me so far.

    The corollary of this of course is that if women aren’t attracting quality men for relationships, they have no right to complain. They should work on improving themselves too such as how Bellita has.

    • Some other commonly defined ‘alpha’ traits such as low impulse control or low agreeableness aren’t necessarily good, which like you’ve said brings up the problem with using ‘alpha’ as a label. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we use the word.

      Here is the problem. *If* you define alpha as man who gets laid by a lot of women, which is the typical definition in the ‘sphere, then by definition you are describing a man who has a short-term mating orientation.

      There is a great body of research looking at the personality characteristics of men who have a short-term mating orientation. They exhibit low conscientiousness and low agreeableness. They are more risk-seeking, and more novelty-seeking than men who are more oriented toward long-term mating. There are literally hundreds of studies that confirm this research on mating and personality traits. As it happens, women who are more oriented toward short-term mating possess the same traits. Which is why the research demonstrably concludes that promiscuity is linked to these traits for both sexes, and that women who are sexually attracted to Dark Triad males, are themselves disagreeable and not conscientious.

      These two definitions cannot be squared. The alpha getting laid by lots of women is not a benign and benevolent creature. He is agentic, self-focused and manipulative, as are his female partners.

  • Abbot

    “A lot of them can’t say no even when the guy is very bad for them”

    Did you know that there are legions of promiscuous women trying to constantly cover that fact up with flowery women-in-control euphemisms including “expressing her sexuality” that has now become so transparently stupid that a bastion of new terms is probably in the works.

    “Sex is the most precious, ULTIMATE gift a woman can grant a man”

    Because women have made such a revolting mess of that gift, they now backpedal with statements such as “there is more to a woman than her crotch” aimed directly at men – not society – just men who would dare be insubordinate and reject women who have no gifts [as solely defined by men] to offer.

  • Esau

    Jackie: My mom’s cotillion training has prepared me for even greater heights than social directory of a penal colony. I believe I shall aim higher, Esau, and aspire to better things.

    By all means, aim high; but in a rough economy it’s always good to have a fallback option. However, let’s check first that you really have the qualifications.

    Do they still teach the old Dreyfus Affair in school any more? The Wikipedia-level refresher is available here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair

    and the specific chapter describing life on Devil’s Island is here (warning, descriptions not for the faint-hearted):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_conviction_of_Alfred_Dreyfus

    French law apparently had some ups and downs in what treatment was legal; for example, though in solitary confinement Dreyfus was allowed to send and receive mail, though only with his family. His correspondence were of course censored by the authorities; the Wikipedia article describes that “His letters, examined by the administration, were one long cry for justice.”

    One long cry for justice; now there’s an example of a “victim mentality” for you! Red flag! Should he ever be released from prison, Captain Dreyfus will surely have to rectify his feelings about injustice before anyone should ever consider dating him, or even going out for drinks.

    Best of all, Jackie, is that I can just picture you there, bidding Dreyfus a fond farewell from the island as he’s being transported back to France for re-trial. “Now, Captain, we all get wronged by ‘fate’ sometimes; life is not fair you know! Even though you’ve been the direct … umm … victim of the greatest legal railroading in modern European history, it would be wrong for you to ‘abdicate responsibility’ and ‘lay the blame on ill fortune’. When you go back to face re-trial at the hands of the same corrupt system, try to maintain a positive attitude! At all costs, avoid developing a ‘victim mentality’; remember, no one acquits a whiner. Happy sailing!” Really, you’d be so perfect, I’d hate to see you wasted on any higher ambitions.

    Which brings us back to your portentous conclusion:

    But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.

    And what does a person displaying a “victim mentality” tell you? Sometimes, what it tells you — or what it tells me — is that (1) the person has actually been a victim of injustice, and (2) they value their own humanity enough to protest, rather than silently normalizing injustice through acquiescence to it.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Some other (real) lessons I learned as a single & dating woman:

    * The way to a man’s heart may be through his stomach, but his heart will discern genuine love in a meal vs. showing off.

    * “You’re marriage material” is promising, but it isn’t equal to “I want to marry you.”

    * Vulnerability is precious and valuable. It can occur so unexpectedly, sometimes it’s easy to respond to it incorrectly. That can lead to disaster (loss of trust).

    * Genuine romance does not occur at your pace. You have to be patient in receiving the special surprises. Demanding things takes the surprise out of it, causes unneeded stress for you, and annoyance in your partner.

    * Somewhat contradictory to that, ask for what you want. Asking (nicely) for something doesn’t make it any less valuable than if your partner thought to give it to you on his/ her own.

    • @Royale

      Those are some great lessons from dating. This one in particular gave me goosebumps:

      Genuine romance does not occur at your pace. You have to be patient in receiving the special surprises. Demanding things takes the surprise out of it, causes unneeded stress for you, and annoyance in your partner.

      It takes time to fall for someone. Intimacy has to be nurtured. I think a lot of problems in the SMP could be resolved or at least mitigated if people were not so intent on immediate gratification.

  • Infantry

    So true about the staring into your partners eyes. I once dated this guy for a long awhile, simply because we got along and it was easy. But whenever I tried to stare into his eyes I felt empty no matter how hard I tried and I feared he felt the same way I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. The eye test is accurate.

    I’ve done this recently with an attractive girl I’m currently seeing casually. Its accurate, at least for me. This girl is intelligent, feminine, good company, good in bed etc etc. On the face of it a compatible prospect for a relationship.

    I screened her and found out she has done threesomes and other adventurous acts in her past. I suspect she has roughly double my N. Not necessarily a problem, because I checked my emotions and they seemed to be holding. No Madonna/Whore flaring up which causes me to reject her out of hand, and I’m on the whole quite comfortable with her past.

    What is a problem is that there is an emptiness in her eyes and presence like you’ve described. At some deep undefined level, my gut is telling me she is not partner material. Its important that its not the overt knowledge of her sexual history as I felt this way before the screening and finding out her sexual history. Its the fact that she is not connecting with me. Her ability to pair bond is broken. I strongly suspect that there was an ‘alpha’ in her past that messed her up and she has hinted of abuse in a previous relationship.

    It would be impossible for me to open my emotions up to this woman because of the failsafes in my biological programming. This is before I apply rational common sense and red pill theory to what I know about her on a conscious level.

    I write about this because I wanted to show an example of how mens’ gut feelings about their womens’ availability shapes whether a girl is considered serious relationship material or not. If a guy ‘feels’ that his girl isn’t strongly bonded to him, then its very likely that there’s no way in hell he would consider marrying her. I say very likely because there’s always idiots out there that don’t listen to their instincts.

  • Mike C

    Once guys are more progressed with the red pill they often strive to be more alpha. This is good on the whole and something to aim towards especially with traits such as confidence and assertiveness.

    Yes, absolutely. Especially because most guys are starting from a point of way too much “betaness”. The problem/issue for most guys isn’t that they are too much “alpha asshat” and need to tone it down, but that they are too much “supplicating beta” and needs to “balls up”.

    Some other commonly defined ‘alpha’ traits such as low impulse control or low agreeableness aren’t necessarily good, which like you’ve said brings up the problem with using ‘alpha’ as a label. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we use the word.

    Right. Which means that often many people are talking past each other when we start talking about alphas versus betas as nouns and individual men. Susan can correct me if I am wrong, but my clear sense is when she talks about alphas she really is focusing mostly if not exclusively on the things like disagreeablenss and low impulse control instead of the things like confidence, assertiveness, and leadership. When I think of guy exhibiting alpha traits, I’m not exclusively thinking of douchebags who shotgun a beer while popping a wheely or some other nonsense.

    The ‘game’/red pill theory I subscribe to is that of constant self improvement. Rather than complaining about what women want, work at improving yourself until you can attract them and keep them.

    Could not have said it any better.

    The corollary of this of course is that if women aren’t attracting quality men for relationships, they have no right to complain. They should work on improving themselves too such as how Bellita has.

    Well….yup. Its interesting because any guy including myself who didn’t have the success he thought he should be having at some point with women realized he had to work on the things to boost sexual attractiveness. Some guys can’t accept this, and stay in a state of always complaining. Its my sense women by and large are still fighting and struggling with this…to really internalize they HAVE TO DO THE THINGS to boost their “relationship attractiveness”. My sense is many women are still stuck in the “a guy should love me for who I am mentality” instead of realizing that perhaps many changes need to be made in order to make herself an attractive LTR or marriage candidate. I know a few women close to me who seem to want to fight making changes tooth and nail.

  • Mike C

    If a guy ‘feels’ that his girl isn’t strongly bonded to him, then its very likely that there’s no way in hell he would consider marrying her. I say very likely because there’s always idiots out there that don’t listen to their instincts.

    Infantry,

    I think there are women who can fake this quite effectively. IDK. Not sure if you know my history from past comments, but my ex-wife was my first sex partner, and first serious love. I did have some sex partners and girls I dated in between as we were on an off for years prior to getting married.

    Looking back, at the time, I thought she was strongly bonded to me, but I think I did have some warnings from my instincts. IDK. Its actually hard for me to remember it all, as I think I’ve psychologically blocked out much of my recollection of her and our time together.

    IDK, hindsight is 20/20 and I read a lot of stories about guys who married a woman and years later are shell-shocked when she ends up either leaving the guys or cheating.

    I guess you should be able to tell when a woman is showing a lack of true connection/strong bond, but I think it can be tricky to suss out one faking it.

  • Infantry

    My sense is many women are still stuck in the “a guy should love me for who I am mentality” instead of realizing that perhaps many changes need to be made in order to make herself an attractive LTR or marriage candidate. I know a few women close to me who seem to want to fight making changes tooth and nail.

    I suspect the culture of entitlement and ‘team women’ group think makes it harder for women to shake it off. The media and society constantly points at men being the problem. There’s only a few smaller outposts such as the Manosphere that argue the opposite, although its getting very common to see red pill theory spouted in online comments of mainstream media and news sites these days.

    For a woman to sit down independently and apply common sense, while ignoring her peers and the media.. well it takes a special kind of woman, which is why people like Bellita are held in high esteem by many men. I suspect a lot of the ‘what can I do to fix this?’ type of women are far more likely to be snapped up for relationships.

  • Jackie

    @Esau (#146)
    Hi Esau,

    Have you done any reading or research on victim mentality? I’m not using it as a glib expression: Here is a wiki article (tho the term they use is “victim playing”): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing

    (Eric Berne’s _Transactional Analysis_ is a *fantastic* read that describes victim mentality in much greater [and absolutely riveting] detail, by the way.)

    Victim mentality is defined as “the fabrication of victim-hood for a variety of reasons such as to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy or attention seeking.” In other words, the antithesis of an actual victim.

    Esau, the Dreyfus affair was truly a terrible story. I hope I would never be guilty of victim-blaming. Can you not see the difference between my example of Mr. Rochester using “fate” to justify his promiscuity and self-pity and yours? According to the article you cited, Dreyfus was described as “stoical and forgave his tormentors.”

    Esau, have I offended you in some way? You suggest that I am perfect to be the social director of a notorious penal colony in a mocking and sarcastic tone. If I’ve done something, please let me know. I know I have many faults and would rather improve than continue to offend you, if that is in fact what has happened.

    Thank you, Esau, for considering my request.

  • Infantry

    I guess you should be able to tell when a woman is showing a lack of true connection/strong bond, but I think it can be tricky to suss out one faking it.

    I agree with what you’re saying and I was aware of your history. I’m not saying your gut should be the ultimate arbiter of whether we get into relationships. I’ve been caught off guard or at least had my gut feelings obfuscated by the strong attraction and emotions I’ve felt around certain women before. I know that its not this loud and clear alarm bell that always rings to save us from getting involved with the wrong women.

    Screening was developed as another fail-safe that could be used in conjunction with a guys instincts to determine whether a girl is ‘safe’ for a relationship. In a way it was kind of like a checklist so that a guy could get a second opinion outside of his own emotions. eg:
    if N>20 then not partner material
    if sex acts include threesomes then not partner material
    if eyes light up when talking about an ex then not partner material
    if poor financial history then not partner material
    etc etc..

    But screening in itself is not 100% accurate at predicting a happy future either and you can see how clunky and black and white it can be by looking at the above. Context is everything. I think a combination of both instincts and strong background screening should be used over an extended period of time to make the decision. Its not 100% fool proof, but its the best we’ve got.

    As an aside, I find it interesting that some of the better red pill guys have developed advanced methods of screening girls by copying female shit test tactics. As always, look at what they do, not at what they say.

  • ExNewYorker

    “What’s wrong with Alphas?”

    Nothing, really. They have options, don’t need to commit (and often don’t) and they get a lot of leeway from women interested in them. A pretty good deal, if one can manage it 🙂

  • Mike C

    Infantry,

    Question for you in terms of measuring a woman’s level of bond/devotion. What are your thoughts in terms of using as one yardstick basically seeing out how willing and eager she is to do stuff for you. And I don’t really mean sexual stuff. I”m talking more mundane day to day stuff like if you need X from the grocery store, and you tell her I need X from the grocery store, can you go pick it up for me.

    My first inclination is that a woman who is strongly bonded/truly devoted will be happy to do stuff for her man, but I’m curious if you think I’m off the mark on that.

    • @Mike C

      My first inclination is that a woman who is strongly bonded/truly devoted will be happy to do stuff for her man

      You asked Infantry, but I’d just like to say that a woman who is strongly bonded will seek opportunities to do this without your even asking. A young woman told me recently that when a guy came over for a drink before their second date, she had gotten in the microbrew he’d ordered on their first date. He asked her point blank if it was a coincidence, or if she remembered. Now, I don’t know exactly what went through his mind when she said she got it just for him, but I’ve got to imagine that was a big DHV in terms of girl game.

      She wrote this to me and said that she had really taken the emotional escalation post to heart and was going “all in” by demonstrating her interest openly. I was really gratified by that email.

  • Just1X

    @Michael
    “Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.”

    If you’re defining your own value, making your own decisions about what you want and what you are willing to do to get it – then you are going your own way – you are a man going your own way. If you don’t want to label yourself as an MGTOW, that’s fine but MGTOW doesn’t mean any more than what you’re doing. There’s no celibacy requirement, no hatred of women requirement, just an independence of thought – it is ‘Your Way’ to define.

    I wasn’t trying to ascribe views to you beyond the ones you espoused.

  • Todd

    @Abbot

    I know I’m coming back late with this, but I’ve noticed in my experience that women who sleep around and women who are prudes tend to be both seeking control over men as a way of dealing with their own issues with men. That’s what I meant. Personally, I don’t mind the whores. With condoms, other birth control implements and some common sense, they can at least be fun. That said, a mentally unhealthy woman is a mentally unhealthy woman, irregardless of her body count. If anything, focusing on a body count too much might have you walk into a complete mess of a woman.

    • @Todd

      I’ve noticed in my experience that women who sleep around and women who are prudes tend to be both seeking control over men as a way of dealing with their own issues with men.

      Can you define prude? Are you saying that a woman waiting for love, and exhibiting great self-control to that end, is seeking to control men?

  • Infantry

    @ Mike C

    My first inclination is that a woman who is strongly bonded/truly devoted will be happy to do stuff for her man, but I’m curious if you think I’m off the mark on that.

    I wouldn’t use it in isolation, but I think that if a girl wants to do something for her man just because it makes him happy, then that’s a very good sign and one of the better ones for determining whether a girl is serious relationship material.

    A couple of years ago I casually dated a South Korean exchange student who bonded to me like glue very very quickly. I suspected I was the most ‘alpha’ man that she’d had in her life. I didn’t have any other reference point for believing this except culturally stereotyping South Korean men and third hand descriptions of her orbiters from others. She displayed insecurity and was constantly asking me if I thought she was pretty or if she was making me feel good. She’d come over to cook me dinner at my place bringing pre-prepared ingredients.

    Now she was a typically insecure girl, but I believe that she would be a good long term relationship or marriage prospect if we were more compatible. I say that amorally, because I’m aware of how girls feel about men dating insecure girls (or worse creating insecurity via dread as has been discussed here ad nauseam).

    Anyway, I’m digressing a bit. To get back to what you were saying, the best relationship I had (not the one above) almost ended in marriage and that girl would happily do things for me without question and I would do the same for her. Nothing made my day more than seeing her face light up and when I did things for her she absolutely radiated feminine energy. The closest I’ve seen anyone describing that energy here is when Hope talks about how she feels around her husband.

    I’m still looking for that same relationship dynamic (give/give) to this day and the memory that those kind of relationships exist serves as a guiding light during the darkest nights in the SMP.

  • Abbot

    “there are women who can fake this quite effectively”

    Then men are being presented with a trifecta

    Slut Liar Faker

    Clearly then, women do not believe men buy into “men should love me for who I am” since that really means “love me for all I have done” and even the dumbest woman knows thats not going to fly. Men will not change. Despite the glaringly obvious man shortage, women could try being less desperate.

  • Abbot

    “change her price anytime she wants, but you can’t blame a guy for deciding to walk.”

    “one of the most misunderstood concepts I think amongst many women which is also accompanied by a rejection to really want to understand it.”

    More like a brush off. Try explaining how men feel about it to a woman and the kneejerk responses may include “there are different kinds of sex” or “I felt differently with that guy” and they fail to consider that men may understand the reasons given but feel very put off at the same time. In conclusion, her sexual relativism is unstable, inconsistent, manipulative, dishonest, disconcerting, disingenuous and highly disagreeable with the male point of view, the devaluation of her sexuality notwithstanding. More and more, women are having to reckon with some serious shit.

    The life long time to sex with a new man is a function of her shortest time to sex. She set the bar and will suffer due to poor sexual management.

  • Abbot

    “I don’t mind the whores…they can at least be fun.

    Absolutely and they are needed by men before switching to the wife material group

    “focusing on a body count too much might have you walk into a complete mess of a woman.”

    Certainly but its better to start with a low N woman if there is an equal chance of the woman being a complete mess

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT passions: Susan. Do you think the passions should be shared, or is it only necessary the guy has them?
    For example. I thought the Beatles were a pretty good party sound until they went to India and came back thinking they Know Stuff. Losers after that. I favor Desprez, Tallis, Dowland. Problem there?
    Sports. Baseball is boooring. I played lacrosse and love to watch it when it’s available on television–couple of days of NCAA finals in the spring. Problem?
    Politics: You want to discuss Fast and Furious in detail? Thought not. Problem?

    IOW, it’s important to know whether, in your description, the passions should be shared, at least to some extent. If not, if the guy’s passion has him alone in his workshop–or writing and doing research on, say, SDI by himself, unable to discuss it in terms understandable to the uninterested, if he’s volubly against the AGW hoax….

    I’m not talking about having significant differences on a subject. Simply the guy has a serious interest in a subject and the woman does not. Her interests are elsewhere. Does that count?

    The reason I ask is that, if the assertion is that he needs to have passions irrespective of the subject, and the reality is he’d damn’ well better have the same passions as she does, we could find some folks misled.

    • @Richard Aubrey

      That’s a great question. I do not think the passions need to be shared. I feel attracted to men who have passions of their own, and did before they met me.

      I will say, though, that it’s great if couples can develop interests together and share passions, or if one can bring the other into their passion. for example, you might teach your partner enough about lacrosse so that she genuinely enjoys following it with you.

  • M3

    “SayWhaat got flamed for making this joke. Is anyone going to take Michael to task?”

    Not sure what SayWhaat said.. refresh my noodle.

    • @M3

      SayWhaat joked about the little head making the decisions in the heat of the moment and caught a lot of grief for it. And that’s not you, that’s the other Michael.

  • Susan, I think that Fisher’s dopamine-spike-hunting Explorers are *less* prone to moodiness and neuroticism, believe it or not. They don’t spend huge amounts of time engaging in deep emotional self-reflection. This is not to say that Explorers are a million laughs—the impulsive stuff, need for novelty, and high risk-tolerance make them potentially very dangerous mates and poor parents unless they get to be the childlike “fun and games” person.

    IIRC (it has been awhile), Fisher mentions how a happy-go-lucky person with general, almost philosophical indifference to both wins and losses can take risks (because of the willingness to absorb the rejections or losses without residual negative emotions; the bad stuff is just shrugged off), but can be seen as lacking in emotional depth by those who want reactivity (even negative reactivity) as a stimulus for their own emotional cycles.

    Taking this a bit further for the group’s thoughts… Psychologists have a phrase—“affective forecasting” (or “hedonic forecasting”)—that may be a key element in one’s fitness for relationships. Not to put too fine a point on it, but high affective forecasting ability would indicate that a person could accurately predict how he or she would feel about an event before the event ever happened. A very high level of ability would mean that someone could accurately predict a complex, evolving emotional cascade—the range of emotions that might come in the hours, days, weeks, months, and even years after an event, long after the initial shock or novelty had worn off.

    It’s the psychological equivalent of the ability to properly discount future cash flows and compare them to investment costs in the present. In other fields, perhaps this is called “wisdom” or “awareness of the hedonic treadmill”.

    A chronic issue with headcase relationship partners would appear (to me) to be low-quality affective forecasts. Someone invests heavily in something believing that it will create a permanent euphoria, and then becomes depressed when the event fails to deliver the goods. So another goal is chosen that will make everything better, cause people to live happily ever after, or whatever. The headcase usually becomes obsessed with “forward motion” in the relationship and believing that meeting certain benchmarks will yield greater happiness.

    A partner with higher-level AF could say something like, “If you do this for me, I probably will be happier for a short time, but then I’ll go straight back to my normal emotional state and seek something else out of you, maybe something even bigger. You’ll get tired of this steeplechase, so it’s probably not worth it, really. Let’s find something that will create more lasting contentment.”

  • Emily

    >> “Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).”

    This is EXTREMELY true about women as well. If a girl is a snotty little bitch to the waiter then GET OUT NOW! Mark my words, she’ll eventually treat you in the exact same way.

    IMO, you can learn a lot about a person from how they interact with “service staff”.

  • Doc

    “3. Sexual compatibility is mostly about sex drive.”

    A lot of women seem not to get this – when a man has sex with her and doesn’t call again, and it happens over and over, the men aren’t all jerks. Time to look at how you are in bed – sorry if that bothers you, but such is life. I know that for me, this is a litmus test – and I want to get it out of the way fairly early so as not to waste my time. If sex isn’t fun – and over the years I’ve discovered that against all probability some woman make it a chore – why would I care about any of the rest since everything else doesn’t matter?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Right. Which means that often many people are talking past each other when we start talking about alphas versus betas as nouns and individual men. Susan can correct me if I am wrong, but my clear sense is when she talks about alphas she really is focusing mostly if not exclusively on the things like disagreeablenss and low impulse control instead of the things like confidence, assertiveness, and leadership. When I think of guy exhibiting alpha traits, I’m not exclusively thinking of douchebags who shotgun a beer while popping a wheely or some other nonsense.

    Exactly. Whenever I think of a true “Alpha”, I don’t picture an immature thug. I envision a man that women and men look up to and respect. Women want him, and men aspire to be like him. He has status, charm, looks, and a killer personality to boot. In other words, he’s worthy of the respect and attention that he receives. Those alpha males have an almost noble air about them. They elicit admiration from practically everyone.

    Those are the alphas that I like and prefer to date.

    @ Infantry

    You yourself have stated a preference for alphas. Nothing wrong with that, but I’m guessing you already know that betas will never be enough for you.

    Yes, I have such a preference. Also, I’ve known that a “beta” could never really satisfy me for awhile now. I recently stopped seeing a guy I had been on a few dates with because he was very much a beta. The attraction kept dwindling, and I knew that there was nothing I could do to save it. I think a lot of grief in the SMP would end if women really tried hard to understand exactly what type of men they are attracted to. If they genuinely like betas, they will date betas. If they genuinely like alphas, they will date alphas. It seems like a lot of women end up with men that they can’t explain in detail why they are attracted to them.

    • @Sassy

      I understand your idealized alpha vision. My question to you is, “How many men like that want lifelong monogamy?” Or even a LTR right now?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Sassy
    “He has status, charm, looks, and a killer personality to boot. In other words, he’s worthy of the respect and attention that he receives. Those alpha males have an almost noble air about them. They elicit admiration from practically everyone.”

    That all sounds nice and everything, but what do those attributes have to do with a relationship? Is a “genuinely good heart” typical of the alpha males you are attracted to?

  • Cooper

    “Or is being “marriage material” a disqualifier?”

    It is.

  • Mike C

    4. Data on sexual partner counts shows that 90% of men and women have a low partner count, i.e. less than 3. This is true in college and afterwards.

    Therefore —–> very few women have had sex with alphas.

    As a purely mathematical matter, the latter doesn’t follow from the former. It is mathematically possible that 80-90% of women could have say 3-5 partners, yet 100% have at least one alpha in that count. I’m not saying that is the case, but there is nothing mathematically that precludes that.

    In my view, and to the best of my knowledge there are no stats one way or another on this, but I suspect most women, even relatively low count ones have at least one or two encounters with a more alpha type guy. My sense is (and I’ve got some experience to back this up) is that some women will have short-term casual sex with a guy 2-3 SMV points higher than them because they mistake his sexual interest for something more. They get “burned” when the relationship never materializes. I suspect many if not most women learn from this which is why it is probably 1-2 encounters at most and the mistake doesn’t get repeated after that.

    This scenario presents an alternative where most women could still be relatively low count while many would have had sex with at least one more alpha type guy.

    • My sense is (and I’ve got some experience to back this up) is that some women will have short-term casual sex with a guy 2-3 SMV points higher than them because they mistake his sexual interest for something more. They get “burned” when the relationship never materializes. I suspect many if not most women learn from this which is why it is probably 1-2 encounters at most and the mistake doesn’t get repeated after that.

      Definitely! And that makes total sense – a guy with a very high SMV pretends to be interested in something more – cads notoriously run Nice Guy Game with college freshmen, which is when the majority of these mistakes are made.

      A lot of women arrive at college thinking that they are going to meet a good guy and “go steady.” They aren’t looking for a ONS, they’re trusting that this guy was just waiting for a girl like them to arrive on campus, and can’t wait to lock it down.

      The incidence of hooking up falls off a cliff after freshman year, precisely for this reason. The noobs have learned the hard lesson. The next year, fresh meat arrives and the cycle repeats itself.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Royale W. Cheese

    That all sounds nice and everything, but what do those attributes have to do with a relationship? Is a “genuinely good heart” typical of the alpha males you are attracted to?

    That’s the thing. I haven’t met a man with all of those attributes, who also has a good heart, who is single and straight. Men like that are typically already in relationships, so pickings are slim.

    Also, I place a huge emphasis on the respect part of the alpha equation. A true alpha conducts his life in a way that makes him worthy of genuine respect. He’s kind, but firm and dominant when he needs to be. He has a good character. He is emotionally stable and uses his talents for good instead of evil.

    I’m reading Pride and Prejudice right now, and the character of Mr. Darcy really does exemplify all of those qualities. If you haven’t read that book already, I highly recommend it, by the way. 🙂

  • Ramble

    As a purely mathematical matter, the latter doesn’t follow from the former. It is mathematically possible that 80-90% of women could have say 3-5 partners, yet 100% have at least one alpha in that count. I’m not saying that is the case, but there is nothing mathematically that precludes that.

    Yes, I have been saying this exact thing for a long time.

    Not that I am implying that this is what is actually happening. But, a girl can have a pretty low number and still have spread her legs for a non-long-term prospect.

    (Just like a guy could have a low number and have had banged a slut).

  • Ramble

    A true alpha conducts his life in a way that …

    No true Scotsman would …

  • Michael

    ”Yes, this will guarantee a life of short-term mating, without the possibility of love. Awesome strategy for the Dark Triad types!”

    Love for oneself is the key to true happiness. I’m going to spend the rest of my life with myself. With a woman, doubtful. It’s too risky and the consequences of the woman turning sore are devastating. I met a girl today. Average looking in the sense that she was thin, had weak hair, was kinda cute, intelligent, knew how to start and continue a conversation(I said hi, she took my ear off) dressed modestly, but man, she was broadcasting high level of interest all day long in my direction despite having a finger on her ring.

    She asked me my phone number and to get together one day but I told her I was off the Country for a couple of months. I’m not interested in being shot in the face by the dude who’s dating her. Besides, all women like her have going on for them are the theoretical low sex numbers, but if she’s being putty for a beta male, she has probably bedded many Alpha males.

    Another encounter today. Was in the subway, felt someone looking at me – it was a pregnant early 20’s woman. Yap, I can see other men going for that and the poor bastards who are dating or married to these gals are working for nothing, lol.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Mike C
    “My sense is (and I’ve got some experience to back this up) is that some women will have short-term casual sex with a guy 2-3 SMV points higher than them because they mistake his sexual interest for something more. They get “burned” when the relationship never materializes.”

    Do betas always engage in long term relationships with the women they sleep with? It seems to me like your proposal relies on the assumption that every short-term casual sex encounter is committed by alphas. What about a choosey beta? One who didn’t want to be in an LTR with that particular woman because the connection just wasn’t right?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Touche.

    What should we call a man that may have the looks/status that an alpha male typically has, but that lacks the respectable component of it? What are they called?

    Thugs? Bad boys? Cads? If that is what they are called, why are such men often lumped under the umbrella term of “Alpha”?

  • Mike, Ramble, great points. We also may be looking at “alpha” as an absolute thing in some examples and a relative thing in others. Sometimes an alpha may just have a higher SMV rank than his immediate peers do.

    A woman with N=3 and SMV=6 may have had guys with different SMV ranks—perhaps a 5, a 6, and a 7. Unsurprisingly she ends up in the LTR with the guy with the SMV most similar to her own (the 6), but the Manosphere trope is that 1) she fondly remembers (and why wouldn’t she?) her time with the 7 and 2) that this may have some negative impact on her LTR with the 6. I think the former is a very reasonable assumption, but the latter is more difficult to establish as a general rule.

    The “20% are alphas” thing probably must involve a hard floor on the minimum SMV required to be an alpha. If we maintained that a man must have an SMV of 8+ to prowl in legit alpha status, then the woman in the example above would technically never have been with an alpha. However, shifting to a more relativistic approach and we find that the SMV 7 guy was *her* alpha, in that he came the closest to it in her limited sexual experience.

    Susan, what do you think of this?

    • @Bastiat

      the Manosphere trope is that 1) she fondly remembers (and why wouldn’t she?) her time with the 7

      Well, there are several reasons why she might not. First, was it a ONS? Because if so, the chances that she had an orgasm are only 18%. She may have left the 7’s company feeling anything but satisfied. I daresay this is the most common outcome.

      The idea that sex with an alpha is superior is just flat out wrong. The fact that he has a lot of sex with different partners make him more likely to be several things, none of them a plus:

      1. He doesn’t try hard. His only goal is to bust a nut. Tucker Max was known for jackhammering his way to orgasm and then rolling off the girl, done. Unless a man is invested in what the woman thinks of him, he has no incentive to please her sexually.

      2. He’s more likely to have “go to” moves that are not customized in any way for the encounter. For example, one player here stated that he almost always goes for a chokehold during sex. If someone had ever done that to me, I would have called 911. Even if that is something a woman would welcome in a relationship, the presumption to go there during casual sex shows just how numbed the man is to “normal” sexual behavior.

      3. The most alpha guys on college campuses binge drink far more than other guys. Sexual performance, aka “whiskey dick,” is a common complaint.

      4. Alpha males are often viewed as petri dishes by women, aka “trash dicks.” Most women who go in to student health services for STD testing do so because they have been with a player and are anxious to make sure they’re still “clean.”

      For all of these reasons, I believe that women are far more likely to shudder with regret and embarrassment at the memory of sex with an alpha. I recall that a PUA called Fly Fresh and Young described a sexual encounter on this blog once. And I can tell you that he sucked – no way that girl got hers.

      If not a ONS, was it a romantic relationship? If so, and her SMV was lower than his, the odds are that he ended the relationship, either by cheating, or by dumping her. Again, her feelings may be anything but fond. I only have fond feelings for guys that I dumped.

      that this may have some negative impact on her LTR with the 6.

      AFAIK, this is entirely fabricated, perhaps by Roissy. I can honestly say that during my entire life I have heard a woman speak longingly of a past lover only during the period where she was getting over him. And that period is finite, in my experience. Women do not carry those longings around for decades. I suppose if a woman never fell in love again, she might obsess about the man she did love, but I believe that’s rare.

      I don’t believe in one great pair-bonding. Our forebears did not bond for life, they practiced serial monogamy. I see no evidence whatsoever that women bond permanently to any one lover, much less an alpha one.

  • Ted D

    Mike C – “I thought I read somewhere you put stuff together. What kind of style do you focus on?”

    My original stuff goes from heavy metal to dance/trance, depending on my mood. I’m working on putting a small home studio together and hope to have some stuff posted online. If you are interested, I have a few songs on Dropbox I could throw into a public folder. Or, check at Yohami’s blog under his post about his recording studio. I posted a few there, although only one of them is electronic.

    M3 – “See, what women fail to understand is that EVERY guy they let inside them is one step of devaluation for the next guy in the line. Sex is the most precious, ULTIMATE gift a woman can grant a man, and the more you’ve had with countless partners, be it alpha or otherwise, you’re cheapening that gift. And men will respond appropriately.”

    Exactly! It is that devaluation that really bothers me, and at least a handful of men I’ve discussed this issue with. It really seems to upset women to learn this, but at least for some guys, this is 100% true.

    Sassy – I’ll give you my take on the “whats wrong with alpha” question. I know beyond all doubt that I will NEVER be high on the alpha scale. Yes, I have found the ‘sphere, taken the red pill, and am making changes in my life. No matter, I will never be the guy that commands a room, commands respect and submissiveness in others simply by my presence, and I will never have the kind of natural look that puts me anywhere near Brad Pitt in attractiveness. So, the amount of self-esteem required for me to be able to confidently be with a woman such as yourself, that has spent time with many alphas, would put me in the position of having to be “full game on” constantly. To me, the more time a woman spends with real “alphas”, the harder I will have to work to get and keep her affections.

    Now that doesn’t mean that I feel inferior to alphas across the board. I know I have many qualities many/most alphas don’t, and I’m absolutely confident in my abilities to excel at what I do. But, if “alpha” is what turns you on, then I will never be able to keep your sexual intersts long term. Since we all recognize that most men are NOT alpha (at least naturally) then it makes sense to me that most men are simply very “gun shy” with any woman that has alphaed up in the past. We simply don’t feel like we can compete. Now there is always the possibility that you and I could meet somewhere, start chatting, and you could be completely blown away by my intellect and mad conversation skills (not too damn likely unless someone introduces us, but lets pretend…) You may even think that despite my lack of motorcycle and “edge” that you and I work well together. But, I would never be comfortable with your assessment that my personality makes up for my lack of alpha. Perhaps prior to the ‘sphere, but not now. In my blue pill days, I would have foolishly believed that my “specialness” would be enough to overcome your desires for alpha, but I realize now that isn’t the case. My ex-wife wanted more alpha, and although she now sometimes complains that her new BF is a bit of a chauvinistic pig, she is happily enjoying his demands to get him a beer from the fridge. There are just some things no amount of intelligent thought can fix, and the amount of alpha necessary to keep a woman happy seems to often be one of those things.

    So, a woman with a history for dating alphas indicates to me that I probably won’t have what it takes for the long haul.

  • Ramble

    What should we call a man that may have the looks/status that an alpha male typically has, but that lacks the respectable component of it? What are they called?

    Unicorns.

    Well, more seriously, if you are looking for “Alpha status”, then you are looking for someone who will use you for his own purposes. That would make him “alpha”.

    If you are looking for someone who is interested in something long term, then you are looking for “beta”.

    The looks part is easy, you want a man with high testosterone looks.

    Sassy, as far as I can tell, you are attracted to hot guys who have at least a smidgin of the alpha cad in them and do it while being “smooth”. And you want him to stick around, but not smother you, and look hot in front of other girls, but then come back to you.

    I am sure that it is more complicated then that, but, that is what I gather.

    • Well, more seriously, if you are looking for “Alpha status”, then you are looking for someone who will use you for his own purposes. That would make him “alpha”.

      If you are looking for someone who is interested in something long term, then you are looking for “beta”.

      This is the starting point of my own definition.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Sassy
    “Also, I place a huge emphasis on the respect part of the alpha equation. A true alpha conducts his life in a way that makes him worthy of genuine respect. He’s kind, but firm and dominant when he needs to be. He has a good character. He is emotionally stable and uses his talents for good instead of evil.”

    Again, these seems like great social hero traits, but what about the attributes that would ensure a fulfilling LTR with one woman? Of course, a sense of dignity is attractive, and contributes to a person’s stability in general.

    However, these traits all revolve around a guy’s social acumen. They are mostly external to the core of a personal monogamous relationship. What you described here kind of reminds me of the traits that the stereotypical “independent” woman lists as her own “good” attributes. Good job, advanced degree, good citizen, etc. I’m not devaluing these traits (and it annoys me when people do, but that’s another convo)…at the same time, I understand how these are not necessarily relevant to what would make a high-quality partner.

    I’m kind of going off on a tangent. I hope my point is at least some what clear.

  • Susan, love this post. Very wise advice!

    Funnily enough I’m the neat one with the really spartan desk, and I do most of the cleaning. Seems like most other females here are the messier ones.

    Infantry, are you a new commenter? You like Bellita? She is still single, I believe. 😛

  • Ramble

    They are mostly external to the core of a personal monogamous relationship. What you described here kind of reminds me of the traits that the stereotypical “independent” woman lists as her own “good” attributes.

    Royale with Extra Cheese,
    You did a much better job at responding to her comment than I did.

  • Ramble

    Now, I don’t know exactly what went through his mind when she said she got it just for him, but I’ve got to imagine that was a big DHV in terms of girl game.

    I would have wanted to fuck her brains out right then and there. I would go straight cave man on her.

    • I would have wanted to fuck her brains out right then and there. I would go straight cave man on her.

      Wow, that’s a pretty strong endorsement for women escalating emotionally. The more I think about this, the more I think it’s just huge. I don’t know why it took me 3 and a half years to write that post. Yes, it is risky for the woman, but it strikes me as a fair return for the guy’s risk. If she can show that she’s girlfriend material via her actions, rather than demanding exclusivity arbitrarily, she’s building a foundation of IOIs, trust, and investment from the get go. My hypothesis is that this would greatly increase a woman’s success rate, assuming she is choosing wisely in the first place.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Sassy, as far as I can tell, you are attracted to hot guys who have at least a smidgin of the alpha cad in them and do it while being “smooth”. And you want him to stick around, but not smother you, and look hot in front of other girls, but then come back to you.

    I am sure that it is more complicated then that, but, that is what I gather.

    Haha!

    He doesn’t need to have a smidgin of “cad” in him at all. I think that “edge” can be completely separate from being a “cad”. I don’t like cads whatsoever. Those are the men I refuse to get involved with at all because I know that they will probably wreck havoc on my life. I just want an attractive man who has his life together, who is confident, who is confident in his ability to keep me, and who is dominant in good measure.

    As far as him being attractive in front of other women, that will probably happen naturally without much provocation or effort on his part.

    There are other things, of course, that are necessary for him to have that would make a healthy relationship possible.

  • Mike C

    Mike, Ramble, great points.

    Bastiat Blogger,

    Appreciate that coming from you. BTW, I trade futures and options as well. I’d love to read some of your thoughts over on your blog that are more finance/trading oriented. You had a good comment on another thread on inflation/deflation. I’d love to get your thoughts on that as figuring out that one could be the key to generating massive profits in the coming years.

    We also may be looking at “alpha” as an absolute thing in some examples and a relative thing in others. Sometimes an alpha may just have a higher SMV rank than his immediate peers do.

    A woman with N=3 and SMV=6 may have had guys with different SMV ranks—perhaps a 5, a 6, and a 7. Unsurprisingly she ends up in the LTR with the guy with the SMV most similar to her own (the 6), but the Manosphere trope is that 1) she fondly remembers (and why wouldn’t she?) her time with the 7 and 2) that this may have some negative impact on her LTR with the 6. I think the former is a very reasonable assumption, but the latter is more difficult to establish as a general rule.

    This is exactly how I see it. Again, I see the alpha/beta distinction as useful for discussing behavior but not useful for pigeonholing individual men. To me, the core issue is SMV rank and SMV differential. When someone says most/all women “have had sex with an alpha”, what I think is more accurate is that most/all women have had sex with a guy much higher in SMV probably 2-3 points. I think a guy who is an 8 for example might be willing to take a 5 if it is literally there for the taking with close to no effort while the 5 woman can engage the hamster to think there is some real interest there.

    To be clear, I’m not making a moralistic judgement of either the guy or the woman in this type of scenario, but I think scenario is far more common than some believe. AFAIK, there have been no surveys or compiled statistics with the question asking a woman “Have you ever had sex with a guy more sexually attractive than yourself? Even if there was, you could virtually guarantee the question would not be answered honestly. I distinctly recall the Hannah-Adam debate and it astounded me the mental gymnastics women will go through to try and believe the woman has a higher sex rank vis a vis the guy than she really has.

  • pennies

    @BB/179 – “A woman with N=3 and SMV=6 may have had guys with different SMV ranks—perhaps a 5, a 6, and a 7. Unsurprisingly she ends up in the LTR with the guy with the SMV most similar to her own (the 6), but the Manosphere trope is that 1) she fondly remembers (and why wouldn’t she?) her time with the 7 and 2) that this may have some negative impact on her LTR with the 6. I think the former is a very reasonable assumption, but the latter is more difficult to establish as a general rule.”

    The above calculation/speculation is so odd to me. Among my friends and I, when we are in love, we are in love with the person who is right in front of us. With past partners, things didn’t work out for a reason. Time, distance, and sour memories of the events that broke up the relationship would be quite enough to put us off a past lover.

    Honestly, if I was a man who was determined to spend my time jealously worrying about sexual competition, I’d be more worried about new acquaintances and colleagues than past ‘ships.

  • Ramble

    I think that “edge” can be completely separate from being a “cad”.

    Fine. Semantics.

    I just want an attractive man who has his life together, who is confident, who is confident in his ability to keep me, and who is dominant in good measure.

    I feel like you, Royale, and I are in agreement.

  • Ramble

    A lot of women arrive at college thinking that they are going to meet a good guy and “go steady.” They aren’t looking for a ONS, they’re trusting that this guy was just waiting for a girl like them to arrive on campus, and can’t wait to lock it down.

    Girls are such naive victims.

  • Cooper

    @Susan #180, #182
    +1
    @Ted #181 (@sassy re: alphas)
    ++1

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I understand your idealized alpha vision. My question to you is, “How many men like that want lifelong monogamy?” Or even a LTR right now?

    Your guess is as good as mine, to be honest. I’d hedge my bets by saying that the percentage is fairly small.

    @ Ramble

    It goes without saying that the traits I listed aren’t the only things I’m looking for in a mate. I haven’t listed the more “beta” traits because we are talking about alphas/alpha traits.

  • unigirl

    I always had an idea of the typical ‘alpha male’ before this site and I’ve not known many guys that really fit into that, I do know plenty of guys with double digits numbers, some getting right up there, but you still wouldn’t necessarily describe them as alpha males.

    My two younger brothers for instance (both 21), we’re pretty close and I know most of what they get upto, I wouldn’t class either of them as a typical alpha male, both have numbers in the double digits,I think one’s upto 20 something now actually, but they’re just normal guys. I see things in them that girls would like even though I don’t see ‘alpha’ (they’re hilarious), I just think it shows that yes women do like those types of men definately, but that’s just one of the types of men women like, it seems like it causes too many feelings of being second best when it needn’t, in real life people aren’t two dimensional. Just my two cents on that one.

    • @unigirl

      My two younger brothers for instance (both 21), we’re pretty close and I know most of what they get upto, I wouldn’t class either of them as a typical alpha male, both have numbers in the double digits,I think one’s upto 20 something now actually, but they’re just normal guys.

      I also know several guys like this. They’re good guys, definitely beta orbiting types, but through liquid courage, cute looks and luck they’ve gotten to double digits by their early 20s. Slutty girls can have a very low threshold for a ONS, especially in an environment where they don’t know the guy, e.g. party or bar post-college. They’ll come on to a guy who hasn’t said a word to them – no social dominance required.

  • Ramble

    This is the starting point of my own definition.

    Yes, I wanted to use your definition to make things less complicated.

  • Ted D

    “I just want an attractive man who has his life together, who is confident, who is confident in his ability to keep me, and who is dominant in good measure.”

    Yeah, the problem here is “confident in his ability to keep me”. Any woman that has spent substantial time with alpha type guys WILL BE HARD to keep long term for any man that is not at least as alpha as your “weakest” BF. (by that I mean the least alpha of your alphas) I think I’m moderately attractive (and improving, but will never be high on the handsome list), I’m confident as hell in my areas of expertise, and I can be dominant if/when I apply myself. But frankly, none of that matters if I know my SO’s last serious relationship was with a George Clooney kind of man. To me, that indicates that the woman I’m looking at IS NOT looking for what I have to offer, because I’m no George Clooney.

    And I really don’t think women understand just how intimidating your pasts can be to a guy. We compare ourselves to other men all the time when we naturally determine our pecking orders, and for the most part guys aren’t confused as to which rung is theirs. So, when we get with a woman that has spent time with guys that are “higher up” on the attractive ladder, we feel like we are at a disadvantage from the gate. And again, it isn’t that I’m not confident in myself or my abilities, but there are some things I simply can’t change about myself, and there are some things I refuse to change regardless.

    I would never jump into a race car and assume I could drive at 200MPH without banging a wall and turning myself into confetti. I would also never attempt to get with a woman that likes race car drivers, because I can’t drive a race car. (at least not at 200mph!) So women that are driven to bath in alpha presence, regardless of my other positive attributes, will likely find themselves bored with me over the long haul.

  • Richard Aubrey

    It should be remembered that the term “alpha” began as zoologists assigned that status to the Main Man in a group of animals. It does not apply to monogamous pairs such as gibbons, nor to solitary animals like tigers. It does not apply to lions, since there is only one adult male in the usual pride.
    It applies to wolves, chimps, and gorillas, primarily, which are groups containing more than one adult male. This is the guy who has his choice of the females, and for whom females may present solely. Nobody crosses him. He leads, and to the extent the group “decides” to do something, it’s usually his idea.
    Generally speaking, he’s a bastard.
    Paleontologists and paleoanthropologists have tried to apply this model to early human and pre-human hominid arrangements. This is, as I’ve said, a construction of speculation lacking even the slightest degree of actual evidence.
    If we are to talk about “alpha” in human affairs of the heart–so to speak–we need to make sure just how much of the zoologists’ views we include, and which we do not.
    For example, I would suggest the need for “edge” is a recent development, from the time when men, by use of machines, no longer needed to show strength, forthrightness, and control of their immediate environment as a matter of getting through the normal day. Now, it’s recreation. Got to have that stubble and Harley, or the woman in question won’t know if you’re the kind of guy who could run a farm in, say, mid-nineteenth century Illinois, protecting and providing. Or, make up your own description as the millenia roll backwards.
    My suggestion is to drop the word and make up another, or we’ll never agree on how much of evpsych needs to be involved.

    • Paleontologists and paleoanthropologists have tried to apply this model to early human and pre-human hominid arrangements. This is, as I’ve said, a construction of speculation lacking even the slightest degree of actual evidence.
      If we are to talk about “alpha” in human affairs of the heart–so to speak–we need to make sure just how much of the zoologists’ views we include, and which we do not.

      Agreed. The whole construct is highly questionable from an evo standpoint. There is no consensus on this from scientists – and several have suggested that dominant males would have been killed by fellow tribesmen. I have wondered aloud whether we aren’t all descended from the most successful dominant males – since they were the ones who would have reproduced and bestowed “superior genes.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Well, more seriously, if you are looking for “Alpha status”, then you are looking for someone who will use you for his own purposes. That would make him “alpha”.

    If you are looking for someone who is interested in something long term, then you are looking for “beta”.

    I definitely feel like we are all talking past each other whenever we attempt to define what “alpha” or “beta” is.

    I don’t think that being “alpha” requires a man having a self-centered way of life. In my opinion, an alpha cares for other people, but doesn’t do it to the far detriment of himself. He’s not supplicating and he doesn’t bend over backwards for just anyone. He gives care and consideration to people who deserve it.

    I feel like a lot of beta males give so much of themselves to people who simply don’t deserve it in the least. An alpha male, in my opinion, filters through people and only worries about giving care and consideration to people who warrant it. He doesn’t have a problem with saying “No” or denying people who don’t merit his consideration.

    To refer to Pride and Prejudice again, Mr. Darcy was very caring to Elizabeth, his sister, and other people that he deemed worthy of his affections. He was willing and able to stop contact with Mr. Wickham, who truly did not deserve his kindness.

    In other words, an alpha male isn’t afraid to FIDO, when need be.

  • M3

    SayWhaat joked about the little head making the decisions in the heat of the moment and caught a lot of grief for it. And that’s not you, that’s the other Michael.

    Michael said: “Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.”

    I fail to see what was to be called out. Michael said he’s thinking with his brain, not his dick, a cognitive thought process we should all utilize.

    If everyone started thinking with their heads and NOT their tingly genitals.. this world would be in much better shape.

    • @M3

      The point is that both Michael and SayWhaat referred to the two male brains. She was scolded, he was not.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – “In my opinion, an alpha cares for other people, but doesn’t do it to the far detriment of himself. He’s not supplicating and he doesn’t bend over backwards for just anyone. He gives care and consideration to people who deserve it.”

    I think what you are describing is perhaps a sub-set of “alpha” type men. Surely there are some like this, but in my experience they are pretty damn rare. Most alpha type guys don’t really care much for others, since their primary concern is for themselves. Now, some realize at some point that making other people feel good is to their benefit, and may start to place some importance on what other’s want/need, but I would guess that this group is a sub-set as well.

    It seems to me you are almost describing what I consider the “old world” version of alpha, which brings to mind John Wayne and his cohort. For the most part, I think men like those are long gone, and have mostly been replaced by rather self-centered and self-absorbed guys that are mostly out for themselves. Of course, it is also fair to say that there are very few woman left of the “old world” quality femininity. And I think the hardest part for you is: most “old world” alphas probably want “old world” femininity most of the time. I’m not picking on you at all here, but from your discussions here, I wouldn’t peg you high on that scale. It isn’t a bad thing at all, and not meant as a slam. I just think your level of independence and strong opinions might not be something a “John Wayne” kind of man is looking for long term.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ted D

    It seems to me you are almost describing what I consider the “old world” version of alpha, which brings to mind John Wayne and his cohort. For the most part, I think men like those are long gone, and have mostly been replaced by rather self-centered and self-absorbed guys that are mostly out for themselves.

    This + 1000

    I want and prefer the “Old World” type of Alpha. John Wayne is a great example of that too, or Mr. Darcy.

    Of course, it is also fair to say that there are very few woman left of the “old world” quality femininity. And I think the hardest part for you is: most “old world” alphas probably want “old world” femininity most of the time. I’m not picking on you at all here, but from your discussions here, I wouldn’t peg you high on that scale. It isn’t a bad thing at all, and not meant as a slam. I just think your level of independence and strong opinions might not be something a “John Wayne” kind of man is looking for long term

    That’s fair. I know that there are some aspects of my femininity that I can work on to improve as well. I may be very independent, but I can perhaps work to curb it a little.

  • Abbot

    ” if I was a man who was determined to spend my time jealously worrying about sexual competition…”

    …I would immediately realize that no man has such a determination and I would gleefully grab a passport and immerse myself in bevies of uncomplicated deserved feminist-free bliss way south of the Rio Grande River

    Yes, if a bunch of unlucky American women suddenly became men, they would look around at the current female situation and cause passport applications to clog the system for months…

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ted D
    “It seems to me you are almost describing what I consider the “old world” version of alpha, which brings to mind John Wayne and his cohort. For the most part, I think men like those are long gone, and have mostly been replaced by rather self-centered and self-absorbed guys that are mostly out for themselves.”

    I like your use of the John Wayne character here. The thing about John Wayne is that he was probably a beta at his core, but took on domineering behaviors in response to his extremely hostile environment. Most of us do not live in such a hostile world, so this type of character is going to remain a fiction, unless the romance apocalypse actually happens, violence breaks out, and betas have to buy guns and become John Waynes.

    Speaking of which, I just returned from a family reunion, where I got a chance to talk to a cousin of mine about relationships and what not. I was floored when she said that she was looking for the “tall, domineering CEO-thug” that cared only for her. What’s funny is that I think she is fully aware of the stereotype, but she believes in it so badly she will not let it go.

    I certainly concede to the fact that alpha-centric ideals are popular now days, and that I’m kind of a unicorn in my beta-bias, but I don’t know what can be done about it. My cousin is the one with the seductive charm and huge rack, so she’ll most likely keep frustrating these poor guys out here.

  • pennies (from page 1), how interesting that you didn’t like the smell of NF guys. I love my husband’s smell, and we’re both INFJ and have a lot of personality similarities. Then again we are different races, and I was literally bathed in a different tub of germs since I grew up on the other side of the world.

    Mike C, it’s also important that she does these little acts of caring throughout time, not just at the beginning infatuation, honeymoon stage. It takes a lot of conscious effort, which is why partner selection is so important. A woman who isn’t very conscientious can have a great bond with a man in the beginning, and lose it a few years down the road when things become less smooth.

    Sassy and Ted D, I think of that type as the “benevolent alpha,” and I personally see my husband as that type. He is definitely very choosy and filters people, is not supplicating at all, and has no problems saying “no.” Men like him are very rare, though I think when they find the right woman they will likely commit.

    I think the problem Sassy runs into is that a lot of such “old world alphas” want to leave a legacy, i.e., have children. A woman having his biological children is one of the clearest and most primal signs of her devotion. She’s saying “I will take this huge hit to my SMV because I want to have your babies.” If Sassy is seeking an overlap of this already small group of men with not wanting children and also have extremely good looks, that is definitely difficult!

  • Michael

    A good rule of thumb is to disqualify any man who even knows the phrase “spinning plates.”

    Pretty fair. I’d say any guy should disqualify any woman who has ever had a Brazilian wax done or shaves her vagina, uses thongs and G-strings on a daily basis(instead of using it only with her boyfriend/husband). Women who use push-up bras, make-up, tight-fitting jeans, transparent dresses and such. And stay away from the women who do oral sex! If she’s a pro at it, you don’t want to learn where she’s been!

  • M3

    For the most part, I think men like those are long gone, and have mostly been replaced by rather self-centered and self-absorbed guys that are mostly out for themselves.

    Sadly, the pendulum had to swing the other way as far as it did. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    You all know what im driving at here..

  • Richard Aubrey

    For a view of the supposed “old alpha”, who are real, as opposed to John Wayne–who was an actor though Noonan doesn’t see the issue–and where to look… http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122451174798650085.html

  • pennies

    “But frankly, none of that matters if I know my SO’s last serious relationship was with a George Clooney kind of man.”

    But, what if the lesson learned from that relationship is that she values fidelity and the sense of ease that comes from being around someone who is loyal and looking forward to enthusiastically investing in a long-term pairing?

    Generally — as per Susan’s post — the past teaches us what we *don’t* want. It’s nothing to fear.

  • Ted D

    Richard A. – I only use John Wayne because most people can quickly wrap their heads around what type of guy his default “character” was. I don’t know much about the man personally outside of his roles in movies, but I get the feeling he was probably pretty alpha off the screen as well. Although we could argue that he got that way through his portrayal of alpha type men. Chicken and egg there…

    Sassy – My guess is you could/would probably adjust fine to such a guy if a relationship was established. If nothing else, I trust that you could logically work out your “role” and fill it easily provided there was nothing in that role you took issue with. I think the harder issue is just finding a guy like you describe. I’m positive they exist, but honestly finding them can be a real challenge. I mostly met the few I’ve known through either work or volunteer organizations. In fact, if you truly want a “leader” with a “caring” side, non-profit and volunteer organizations are likely to have them. Look for the guys running the show. Most non-profits don’t make big $, so anyone taking the leadership roles in those types of organizations aren’t in it for the money, which may mean they truly enjoy helping others.

  • Ted D

    Pennies – “But, what if the lesson learned from that relationship is that she values fidelity and the sense of ease that comes from being around someone who is loyal and looking forward to enthusiastically investing in a long-term pairing?”

    To be honest, she would have to prove that to me, overwhelmingly so in fact. I realize that people learn and grow, and that can cause people to switch gears and priorities. But the truth is, if she has spent the last several relationships with alpha types, even if she is sincere in her desire to switch teams to “relationship” kind of guys, I really don’t want to be her first SO anyway, because there is a fair chance that although she logically wants to like/love me, her baser attraction cues are probably still looking for good old George.

    I would say for these women, the best bet is to take yourself off the market for awhile and be voluntarily celibate. Not just sexually, but dating period. Go cold turkey, and then start back up with the new mentality. If nothing else, I would take a woman that did this a bit more seriously because that would indicated that SHE takes it seriously.

  • Ramble

    Yes, it is risky for the woman, but it strikes me as a fair return for the guy’s risk.

    Wait, you lost me. What was risky? You mean, she is putting her heart out there and he may think that it was “nice” and not really reciprocate?

    • @Ramble

      Emotional escalation is risky for women, because they’re signaling a desire to be committed without knowing how the guy feels. It’s the inverse of the guy signaling a desire to be sexual before knowing how attracted the woman is.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Sassy and Ted D, I think of that type as the “benevolent alpha,” and I personally see my husband as that type. He is definitely very choosy and filters people, is not supplicating at all, and has no problems saying “no.” Men like him are very rare, though I think when they find the right woman they will likely commit.

    I like the term “benevolent Alpha”. Whenever I talk about preferring alphas, I am indeed talking about “Old World” or “Benevolent” alphas.

    I think the problem Sassy runs into is that a lot of such “old world alphas” want to leave a legacy, i.e., have children. A woman having his biological children is one of the clearest and most primal signs of her devotion. She’s saying “I will take this huge hit to my SMV because I want to have your babies.” If Sassy is seeking an overlap of this already small group of men with not wanting children and also have extremely good looks, that is definitely difficult!

    Yeah, my not wanting children does limit my pool of potential mates. I’m also kind of wary of men who have children from previous relationships.

    @ Ted D

    I think the harder issue is just finding a guy like you describe. I’m positive they exist, but honestly finding them can be a real challenge. I mostly met the few I’ve known through either work or volunteer organizations. In fact, if you truly want a “leader” with a “caring” side, non-profit and volunteer organizations are likely to have them. Look for the guys running the show. Most non-profits don’t make big $, so anyone taking the leadership roles in those types of organizations aren’t in it for the money, which may mean they truly enjoy helping others.

    That’s not a bad idea. How likely do you think I’d be able to meet such a man in theatre or the arts? I like “Benevolent alphas”, but my passion isn’t really in volunteer work. If I could find such a man in a local theatre group or other artistic outlet, I’d be in heaven.

  • Ramble

    In my opinion, an alpha cares for other people, but doesn’t do it to the far detriment of himself.

    Which is pretty fucking different than the definition that Susan tries to employ.

    Either way, you want a really hot guy that will commit to you, without smothering, and remain attractive to other hot girls. I understand that is a simplified version, but I think I have it right.

  • Abbot

    “the past teaches us what we *don’t* want”

    Much can be learned in sufficient manner without the need to pop little white pills every day and hop on. But alas, here we are…

    “It’s nothing to fear.”

    Here, its fixed but still not true-

    Its nothing to justify de-pedestalization

  • Nerdy Bachelor

    Sassy,

    What an interesting coincidence! I read _Pride and Prejudice_ this weekend. I saw Mr. Darcy as the socially awkward man of character in contrast to Wickham’s socially smooth man lacking character.

    The first half of the novel felt like an implicit rebuke of my attitude since I moved to Ohio. Perhaps if I drop my pride, I’ll find an Elizabeth Barrett who’s willing to drop her prejudices.

  • Abbot

    “Go cold turkey, and then start back up with the new mentality.”

    Promiscuous women really are burdened with hurdles. Is such behavior really worth it?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “The idea that sex with an alpha is superior is just flat out wrong.”

    I don’t think this is the issue for most guys.

    I have NO DOUBT that LTR sex is better than anything casual, and certainly MUCH better than a ONS. Practice makes perfect after all… But, there is NO denying that even if the sex totally sucked, the level of excitement felt by a woman being “taken” by some alpha stud CAN NOT be matched by a lesser guy. The sex may be better, she may even truly love her SO, but is she truly as excited to have sex with him as she was that spring break hookup? I have no doubt that her orgasms with her BF are better, but that is very little consolation to a guy wondering if his SO was ever more excited to jump on another guys penis. And, especially if she was that excited in a VERY short amount of time.

    To be brutally honest, *I* want that level of attraction from my SO for our entire relationship, if she ever acted on it before in her life. Because if not, I see it as a possible weak spot in her ability to remain faithful to me. What if she meets a guy somewhere in this big wide world that turns her on SO MUCH that she can hardly help but jump him? Sound crazy? What about spring break 1998? It sets a precedent that even if never repeated, points out a glaring weakness in her cognitive abilities. And if it is approached by a man in this way, then he MUST trigger that kind of response from his mate, indefinitely, to compete against it.

    Or at least that is the worst case scenario that most men worry about.

    • But, there is NO denying that even if the sex totally sucked, the level of excitement felt by a woman being “taken” by some alpha stud CAN NOT be matched by a lesser guy.

      There are just not that many alpha studs around, Ted. I read last week that 40% of British women have had a ONS on vacation. That means lots of guys are getting laid. Even the losers on Corfu are bedding British wenches when they come for a holiday.

      Also, nearly all of this sex occurs under heavy sedation, i.e. intoxication. I don’t think there really is much excitement. It’s tawdry and cheap. If women were that excited, they’d be more likely to get off or at least portray the sex as a positive experience. They don’t. The majority say it was not worth it.

      The practiced seducer who is a great lover? He’s over 30, and he’s very, very rare. He is not on Spring Break in Cabo.

  • Abbot

    “Hey Brent, I see you have a new girlfriend. Sorta innocent looking. Say, why don’t you throw her back into the hookup cauldron for a few more rounds so that she will be taught what she does not want. You know full well that with the lack of proper parenting these days, these gals only really get to know themselves via sex with multiple men”

    “Yeah, guess you’re right Chuck”

    “That a boy. Say, you know I’m a scoundrel so…..”

  • Abbot

    “Or at least that is the worst case scenario that most men worry about.”

    In the US only, and rightfully so

  • Sassy6519

    @ Nerdy Bachelor

    What an interesting coincidence! I read _Pride and Prejudice_ this weekend. I saw Mr. Darcy as the socially awkward man of character in contrast to Wickham’s socially smooth man lacking character.

    The first half of the novel felt like an implicit rebuke of my attitude since I moved to Ohio. Perhaps if I drop my pride, I’ll find an Elizabeth Barrett who’s willing to drop her prejudices.

    Haha! Sounds like a game plan.

    Mr. Darcy is definitely a “benevolent ” alpha, while Mr. Wickham is an example of a “Caddish” alpha.

    Also, I’m curious. What part of Ohio are you in now? I live in Ohio as well.

  • @Royale
    May I suggest that next time a boyfriend calls you marriage material you take the occasion to ask him if that means he is thinking on marrying you? I know I know it will scare many men but it will save you precious time. The marriage material sometimes is a bait to keep a woman calm with the status quo. Never a trust what a man says but what he does if the marriage material doesn’t come with plans of buying a house, a ring or any real action to follow up on that though and you want to marry is time to move the relationship to the next level, marriage or break up, IMO, YMMV.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but high affective forecasting ability would indicate that a person could accurately predict how he or she would feel about an event before the event ever happened.

    Wait you mean this is not how much people work? I’ve been doing that since I was 14 at least. Interesting finding.

    I’m reading Pride and Prejudice right now, and the character of Mr. Darcy really does exemplify all of those qualities. If you haven’t read that book already, I highly recommend it, by the way.

    Wonderful book, cosign the recommendation. I must add though that this perfect Alpha was written by a woman. In fact I don’t remember any fictional male written by a man that makes a woman fall for him. If you look at how men describe and write the perfect woman in their own love stories most women find her usually unlikeable, lackluster and bland, also probably too slutty. If there was any proof that the genders will never agree literature should be it.

    Infantry, are you a new commenter? You like Bellita? She is still single, I believe.

    Heh like I needed another reason to love you. That is the spirit!

    I think the problem Sassy runs into is that a lot of such “old world alphas” want to leave a legacy, i.e., have children. A woman having his biological children is one of the clearest and most primal signs of her devotion. She’s saying “I will take this huge hit to my SMV because I want to have your babies.” If Sassy is seeking an overlap of this already small group of men with not wanting children and also have extremely good looks, that is definitely difficult!

    I will add that IME committed Alphas, the very, very few, don’t want independent women they want a woman that will place them first, over career, friends and even sometimes family. So she already solved part of the puzzle by figuring out what she likes but now she has to find a man that consider her type the ideal woman to commit, harder even. Oh well she needs to go out there a lot so the numbers play on her part, the most men she knows the closer she will be to find the one in a million, YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    Sassy’s theme song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN6F7M15YdE

    I love that song.

    I’d say that it’s a pretty accurate theme song for me as well.

  • Ramble

    I have wondered aloud whether we aren’t all descended from the most successful dominant males

    Dominant at what? Farming?

    I am no expert on these things, but I remember reading that the majority of the English population was descended from “middle class” farmers. I say “middle class” because, if I remember correctly, they were referring to farmers that owned at least some of the land that they farmed and they were not referring to itinerant or peasant farmers.

    Also, that there is a theory out there that most of the Vikings succeeded at killing one another and left behind a fairly docile Scandinavia. So, it is possible that the predecessors of the world’s tallest nation (Denmark) may have been dominant at not getting into battles with Vikings (i.e. I will let you two find out who the biggest bad ass is while I go fishing for some herring).

    ===================

    Emotional escalation is risky for women, because they’re signaling a desire to be committed without knowing how the guy feels.

    OK, just wanted to clarify. And, yeah, that can suck. When that particular “Feature, not bug” process gives her those accurate results, the results still stink.

  • Cooper

    “Generally — as per Susan’s post — the past teaches us what we *don’t* want. It’s nothing to fear.”

    To me, it screams that the woman wasn’t successful in getting what she wanted out of a particular type of man (be that commitment or procreation); and with determination to achieve the initial goals, she is willing to, or realizes she must, compromise with her standards.
    Would she have stopped dating alphas if they committed? Probably not if they met all required criteria.
    So, it’s only seems logical that in the womans’ mind, whether conscious or not, that she has compromised one criteria in exchange for another. The most naturally presumption, to me, is that it was a fraction of attraction to get more emotional stability.

    • Would she have stopped dating alphas if they committed? Probably not if they met all required criteria.
      So, it’s only seems logical that in the womans’ mind, whether conscious or not, that she has compromised one criteria in exchange for another. The most naturally presumption, to me, is that it was a fraction of attraction to get more emotional stability.

      What if she’s not attracted to alphas, like so many women here? What if, in her experience, they tend to signal a stark lack of relationship fitness? And what if that is a turnoff to her? It’s so fascinating to me that guys cannot grasp this concept.

  • Ramble

    In fact I don’t remember any fictional male written by a man that makes a woman fall for him.

    But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
    It is the East, and Juliet is the sun!
    Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
    Who is already sick and pale with grief
    That thou her maid art far more fair than she.
    Be not her maid, since she is envious.
    Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
    And none but fools do wear it. Cast it off.
    It is my lady; O, it is my love!
    O that she knew she were!
    She speaks, yet she says nothing. What of that?
    Her eye discourses; I will answer it.
    I am too bold; ’tis not to me she speaks.
    Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
    Having some business, do entreat her eyes
    To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
    What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
    The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars
    As daylight doth a lamp; her eyes in heaven
    Would through the airy region stream so bright
    That birds would sing and think it were not night.
    See how she leans her cheek upon her hand!
    O that I were a glove upon that hand,
    That I might touch that cheek!

  • Ted D

    Susan – “The practiced seducer who is a great lover? He’s over 30, and he’s very, very rare. He is not on Spring Break in Cabo.”

    Be as that may, I am telling you that MY perspective is as I stated above, and I’m pretty sure plenty of guys feel the same. If my SO ever once was so damned hot for a guy that she threw caution to the wind and sexed him up, then *I* want that level of excitement from her as well. On the regular, not like once or twice a year. It may be that the reality is as you described, but my interpretation of that reality is what will and does come into play in my relationships. And, for me at least, this is really the primary problem I have with casual sex in general. It is my ultimate conclusion to the “price discrimination” dilemma. If she was SO eager to put out easily for any man ever, then I want her to be that eager with me always. otherwise, there is a guy out there somewhere that attracted her more than I do.

    I’m not trying to convince you there are more alphas than there are, I’m telling you how *I* see the situation. As far as it goes, perhaps the guy on spring break was actually a really hot looking beta. It makes no difference to me, I still want that level of attraction from my mate. In fact, if I were totally honest, what I want is WAY MORE attraction from her than that guy if possible. But just as much would work since if he or another guy of “equal value” ever showed up, I would have the home field advantage already.

    And being drunk is no excuse. You’ve said yourself that often times young women (and men) drink to a stupor specifically to lower inhibitions. Sounds to me like the same thing with the added sting of knowing your SO was hot and bothered by another guy and had to excuse the behavior by getting shit faced. That really isn’t going to help her cause in my eyes…

    • @Ted D

      I’m not trying to convince you there are more alphas than there are, I’m telling you how *I* see the situation. As far as it goes, perhaps the guy on spring break was actually a really hot looking beta. It makes no difference to me, I still want that level of attraction from my mate.

      I understand completely, and I think that’s right and reasonable. Thanks for clarifying.

  • Ted D

    Anacanoa – “Not to put too fine a point on it, but high affective forecasting ability would indicate that a person could accurately predict how he or she would feel about an event before the event ever happened.

    Wait you mean this is not how much people work? I’ve been doing that since I was 14 at least. Interesting finding.”

    Sadly IME most people DO NOT plan ahead at all, let alone real long-term planning. In fact, these days I’m pleased to find out that someone might actually plan a few weeks in advance. I think this may be an personality type thing though (MBTI I mean) and to be honest I didn’t realize that everyone didn’t think the way I did until my 30’s. I’ve always believed that most people simply don’t think enough. It seems the truth is, compared to most people, I think too damned much. 😛

  • Ted D

    Susan – “What if she’s not attracted to alphas, like so many women here? What if, in her experience, they tend to signal a stark lack of relationship fitness? And what if that is a turnoff to her? It’s so fascinating to me that guys cannot grasp this concept.”

    Wait. This tanget of the conversation started when it was brought up that many men would be concerned if a woman had alphas in her past. If she NEVER once had an “alpha” guy, then this whole conversation is pointless. If she had one, and found out she didn’t like it, and her history since then shows it again there is no issue.

    But, any woman that has had more than one or perhaps two “alpha flings” to me is indicating possible issues. NO matter how much she wants to tell me (and possibly even believe it herself) I would have a very tough time accepting that she had a real change of heart, and now suddenly finds beta hot.

  • Ramble

    And what if that is a turnoff to her? It’s so fascinating to me that guys cannot grasp this concept.

    1. I am guessing you meant to write “…that some guys cannot grasp”? Right? Remember, we are all special little snowflakes. NAMALT!

    2. It is easy once you grasp that sometimes Alpha is defined as “whatever girls are attracted to is Alpha”. It is too generic to be of much use, but many still rely on it.

  • @Ramble

    As much as I love “the bard” I had rarely ever found a woman swooning after Romeo the way we do about Mr Darcy, Edward, Heatcliff or even Rochester. Romeo and Juliet is a tears romance. Meaning is more about the couple and their destiny moving our feelings and brain cells than about how hot Romeo is.
    Personally I think Romeo was an asshole and I though Paris was better, the little we knew of him he seemed like a nice guy, his defect was not knowing he was marrying a taken woman and being older. Objectively speaking I think Romeo was Juliet’s soulmate.

    In fact, these days I’m pleased to find out that someone might actually plan a few weeks in advance.

    Funny enough my husband hates planning I has to plan at work and he rather not do it on his spare time too. I used to drive me insane this the part where he is the messy one and I’m the organized one. So I guess it makes sense we compromise on different realms of “orderliness”, YMMV.

  • unigirl

    @susan, I’d even say it’s more complex than that, one of them is quite handsome and the other not as much (although 6 5″ and pretty confident), the first one lives with me still so I get to hear a bit more and the wheres and hows, he gets most of his girls from work/ other social settings, rather than picking them up at nightclubs and bars (I think hes’s done that too though but like you say more often when they’ve come onto him in that case), so I think its those areas where the whole of someones personality comes into play with attraction.
    Even a couple who’ve had boyfriends, and been, the nice girl relationship type of girl as well, (I mean not slutty, always in a relationship) so I think it’s more the girl really, rather than these alphas are so irresistable that your girlfriend will use you and cheat with one as soon as they get the chance, if they’re gonna be tempted then they’re gonna be tempted, all different kinds of men are a risk.
    I’d say the pair of them don’t really get too hung up or spend time over-thinking with girls, (I think I inherited that gene lol) the first one does have a girl he’s let kind of string him along on and off for a few years, but even then I don’t think he really thinks about her when they’re not in contact. they just generally have fun and concentrate on other things going on and enjoy their lives. It makes me think that’s literally all you need.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Ted D. I guess it’s a matter of perspective, how John Wayne is seen. He was a hero on screen and avoided WW II, unlike a number of other stars. It’s said he and Woody Strode got into it on set about that, Strode being a vet.
    Manchester, writing about his experience in the Pacific, tells us that Wayne came to entertain the troops, came out on stage in his western stuff and was booed back to Hollywood. Sinatra tried to entertain the troops in Italy and they rushed the stage. MPs had a hell of a time getting him out of there. Better he stay home and play hero–screwing the soldiers’ girls–than show up in the presence of a real soldier.
    Maybe Gregory Peck’s roles are closer. “Twelve O’ Clock High”. I think he was in “High Noon”, “To Kill a Mockingbird”.

  • Ramble

    Apparently one of John Waynes directors (John Huston, I think) rode him constantly because of his mild effort to enlist. Apparently, it got so bad that some of the crew asked the director to let up a bit.

  • Ted D

    I had no idea that JW was a dodger, or that he simply “avoided” serving. Again, I know very little about the real man, and only know him from his movies. So I’ll be sure to be more specific when I bring him up again.

  • J

    @Infantry

    Nothing made my day more than seeing her face light up and when I did things for her she absolutely radiated feminine energy. The closest I’ve seen anyone describing that energy here is when Hope talks about how she feels around her husband.

    What you are describing is a woman in the dopamine phase of being in love. (Hope is still a relative newlywed.) While it is a truly beautiful thing to feel, people shouldn’t pin all their hopes on that kind of feeling because for half of us, when the dopamine production slows, there’s not much left. It’s better to find someone you can still feel attached to as opposed to being on a constant search for that “light” in the face. (Please not that I’m not saying you should look for sexual attraction; I’m saying sexual attraction is not enough.)

    A lot is said in the ‘sphere regarding the “magic alpha penis” theory. I really don’t think that higher number CAN’T bond or remain bonded to their first”alpha.” I do think, however, that many experienced women have been burned and consequently have learned some caution. You’re not going to see that light go on immediately though with such a girl.

    • A lot is said in the ‘sphere regarding the “magic alpha penis” theory.

      Oh, I thought MAP stood for Married Action Plan! 😉

  • J

    @Hope

    Funnily enough I’m the neat one with the really spartan desk, and I do most of the cleaning.

    I have several cluttered work surfaces around the house.

    Seems like most other females here are the messier ones.

    I create choas around me where ever I go.

  • Bob

    Does anyone else feel like Mrs. Walsh is WAY off with her data. There is no way girls are that chaste. Literally ever girl I’ve known has a high partner count and these are normal girls. Your sources say one thing, while most of the guys here experiences say another.

    • @Bob

      Does anyone else feel like Mrs. Walsh is WAY off with her data. There is no way girls are that chaste. Literally ever girl I’ve known has a high partner count and these are normal girls. Your sources say one thing, while most of the guys here experiences say another.

      Uh oh, another “Mrs. Walsh.” That’s the tip off to hostile fire.

      My data comes from the following sources:

      Numerous surveys and studies of sexual behavior. Some are college only, others are general. Sources include the census, CDC, Justice Department, various research universities and eductional organizations.

      Two focus groups of about a dozen women each. At the age of 22-23, N ranges from 2 to 50+. The mean is probably around 10 and the median around 7. These women range in attractiveness from 5- awfully close to 10. The 50+ woman is the 5.

      I also wonder why you would know the partner count of every girl you’ve ever known. That seems highly inappropriate, not to say unusual. In my experience, men ask for this information when considering whether to commit to a girl. It also comes up when slutty guys and girls are sitting around shooting the sh*t, but then you need to consider the source.

      In any case, you’re free to draw your own conclusions or hang on to your beliefs. It truly doesn’t matter to me. There’s absolutely no percentage in my engaging in debate about my sources. I’ve linked to every source I’ve ever used, take it or leave it.

  • J

    Also, that there is a theory out there that most of the Vikings succeeded at killing one another and left behind a fairly docile Scandinavia.

    So it appears that meek did inherit at least a corner of the earth!

  • Anacaona…”I must add though that this perfect Alpha was written by a woman. In fact I don’t remember any fictional male written by a man that makes a woman fall for him. If you look at how men describe and write the perfect woman in their own love stories most women find her usually unlikeable, lackluster and bland, also probably too slutty”

    Interesting. It does seem that creating a credible character of the opposite gender must be one of the most difficult things a novelist has to do. But not ANY fictional men (written by men) who are fallable-for? Not ANY fictional women (written by men) who seem appealing?

    Could you identify what are the things missing from these male-created characters, or is it more a matter of a non-articulatable general feeling?

  • Abbot

    “many experienced women have been burned and consequently have learned some caution.”

    and just who is obligated to mop up that mess?

    That’s right, Mr. Good Enough

    Six pages are dedicated to “The Lowdown on Alpha Males” and the book is the dupers guide to setting up good men with much much less than they deserve

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0053U7EII/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

    .

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I also know several guys like this. They’re good guys, definitely beta orbiting types, but through liquid courage, cute looks and luck they’ve gotten to double digits by their early 20s. Slutty girls can have a very low threshold for a ONS, especially in an environment where they don’t know the guy, e.g. party or bar post-college. They’ll come on to a guy who hasn’t said a word to them – no social dominance required.

    What’s the SMV of the girls these guys are getting? IME, it tends to be on the lower side, not necessarily fat or ugly, but nothing special.

    IMO, number alone doesn’t count for much if a guy is scraping the bottom of the barrel at closing time.

    • @Jason

      What’s the SMV of the girls these guys are getting? IME, it tends to be on the lower side, not necessarily fat or ugly, but nothing special.

      True, I would say they are not getting with the hottest girls, ever. Mostly 5s and 6s, with the occasional 7 thrown in. Interestingly, some have had solid 7s as girlfriends, demonstrating that commitment is worth a point or two on male SMV.

  • Ramble

    So it appears that meek did inherit at least a corner of the earth!

    I would say more than a corner. Look at how little gang violence there is amongst Europeans and Asians. I understand it is only one metric, and a pretty simple one, but, in general, most people with a brain in their head prefer things to be non-violent.

  • Cooper

    “2. It is easy once you grasp that sometimes Alpha is defined as “whatever girls are attracted to is Alpha”. It is too generic to be of much use, but many still rely on it.”

    Oh, you know me so well.

    “What if, in her experience, they tend to signal a stark lack of relationship fitness? And what if that is a turnoff to her? It’s so fascinating to me that guys cannot grasp this concept.”

    Up thread you denounced the existence of the “reformed player,” (which I agreed with) so why so much support for the reformed alpha-chaser?

    I’ve been meaning to ask this: what would you advise a girl to do if a frat-boys, who is known to have had a bunch of casual sex, showed desire to have a relationship? Conversely, what would you advise to a guy do if he has a sorority girl, who has been known for the same, who is seeking a relationship? (assuming the girl/guy are searching for marriage material – are they both bad bets, despite reform?)

    “A good rule of thumb is to disqualify any man who even knows the phrase “spinning plates.””
    Of course, I am not familiar with the saying – at all.

    • @Cooper

      I have no clue why you went into moderation – it was not intentional. Just Akismet being flukey.

      Up thread you denounced the existence of the “reformed player,” (which I agreed with) so why so much support for the reformed alpha-chaser?

      I wasn’t talking about those – I’ve often said that alpha chasers stay alpha chasers, which is why I don’t buy the “Hop off alpha cock carousel, snag beta provider” meme. I was referring to women who are drawn to men with less than over the top dominance. For me, a quiet self-confidence is more than adequate.

      I’ve been meaning to ask this: what would you advise a girl to do if a frat-boys, who is known to have had a bunch of casual sex, showed desire to have a relationship? Conversely, what would you advise to a guy do if he has a sorority girl, who has been known for the same, who is seeking a relationship? (assuming the girl/guy are searching for marriage material — are they both bad bets, despite reform?)

      I believe both have demonstrated low relationship fitness. I’ve cited studies that show the risk of divorce, as well as marital sexual dissatisfaction, is correlated to premarital partner count. However, I think it’s very difficult to draw that line.

      That’s not to say it will definitely be a problem. The study constantly cited in the manosphere says that the risk of divorce jumps 50% with even one partner besides the husband. Personally, I don’t buy it, at least not for my demographic.

      I think the best advice for both sexes is to marry someone with a similar partner count to your own. I think that usually happens anyway.

      • @Cooper

        Spinning plates refers to the goal of always having multiple sexual partners in play. This requires great dexterity, similar to the Chinese performers who carry long sticks with plates spinning stop each one. I think it also requires being an asshole.

        IMO, a guy’s having had some kind of harem, or even attempted one, is even more important a disqualifier than a high N. I think it says a lot about character as well as his view of sex. Remember, the idea is to place your bet on a partner who will be faithful. These are huge red flags.

  • Jason773

    Ted,

    Be as that may, I am telling you that MY perspective is as I stated above, and I’m pretty sure plenty of guys feel the same. If my SO ever once was so damned hot for a guy that she threw caution to the wind and sexed him up, then *I* want that level of excitement from her as well. On the regular, not like once or twice a year. It may be that the reality is as you described, but my interpretation of that reality is what will and does come into play in my relationships. And, for me at least, this is really the primary problem I have with casual sex in general. It is my ultimate conclusion to the “price discrimination” dilemma. If she was SO eager to put out easily for any man ever, then I want her to be that eager with me always. otherwise, there is a guy out there somewhere that attracted her more than I do.

    This is right. On the flipside, as a guy, if you ever experience that ultimate attraction from a woman, so to speak, I don’t see how you could go back to settling for less. I know I won’t. From that reasoning, I really do think Susan downplays the effect the ‘5 minutes of alpha’ can have on a female.

    • On the flipside, as a guy, if you ever experience that ultimate attraction from a woman, so to speak, I don’t see how you could go back to settling for less. I know I won’t. From that reasoning, I really do think Susan downplays the effect the ’5 minutes of alpha’ can have on a female.

      How are these the same thing? The man, once he feels intense and focused desire from a woman he wants, won’t settle for anything less. Makes sense. The female, once she experiences intense and focused commitment from a man she wants, won’t settle for anything less. That’s the corollary.

  • Cooper

    My comments now require Moderator approval?

    Hmm.

  • Could you identify what are the things missing from these male-created characters, or is it more a matter of a non-articulatable general feeling?

    I actually spent quite sometime trying to articulate it and so far I can’t.
    I remember reading Shakespeare in my pre-teens and feeling that his women acted like men with boobs more than anything else and then at Theater class in college I found out that this roles were interpreted by men with dresses! I felt so validated.
    I had a similar issue with a otherwise good writer Jack McDevitt her female lead Priscilla Hutchins is another man with a girls name and boobs. The same for Molly from Neuromancer and MaryGay from Forever War. There is just something that doesn’t quite fit on women’s way they see the world. Now don’t get me wrong aside from Priscilla I love all this characters and I can see their author’s love for them but they ain’t the way women are.
    I will say that there are males that get it Moore my be crazy and eat people for breakfast but her women are really good, also the same for Saramago his women are fantastic. The doctor’s wife from Blindness (the book no the horrid movie) is one of the best female characters I had ever read. But is rare for a man to get them right, IMO.
    On the fence with Joss Whedon and Stephen King they don’t get it perfectly but I think they are more of how they relate to the universe than the details so their characters come out more competent.
    As a writer I try to do the best I can with my male characters too, not sure how that will work though the audience will tell.
    I’m sure for men is probably the same, had you have a similar experience reading males written by women?

  • SayWhaat

    The point is that both Michael and SayWhaat referred to the two male brains. She was scolded, he was not.

    I also get scolded for talking about what I find attractive in men. Life is not fair! Double-standards!!11!!1!

  • SayWhaat

    On the flipside, as a guy, if you ever experience that ultimate attraction from a woman, so to speak, I don’t see how you could go back to settling for less. I know I won’t. From that reasoning, I really do think Susan downplays the effect the ’5 minutes of alpha’ can have on a female.

    Speaking from the flipside of your flipside, I was doing very well forgetting ex-Fake BF until this comment.

    Brb buying a voodoo doll to stick in the oven.

  • SayWhaat

    DISCLAIMER: COMMENTS #268 AND 270 ARE MEANT TO BE TAKEN AT HUMOROUS VALUE.

    NO REFUNDS.

  • I’ve heard both male and female students talk about “commitment sluts” and “emo-whores”. Apparently the commitment slut is a man who sells his commitment cheaply in order to obtain a relationship and get some ration of sex (sex that would be otherwise unavailable to someone of his SMV). He stalks the periphery of hook-up culture looking out for the malcontents and then differentiates himself by putting down other men constantly, revealing an LTR-friendly awshucks beta persona that settles for delayed gratification and lets the girl call the sexual shots, and so on. He may be able to punch well above his SMV weight if people are commitment-starved enough.

    I guess the emergence if this type of social operator is predictable.

    • @Bastiat Blogger

      I think it’s entirely predictable. I’ve shared here before the phrase I’ve heard girls use – “boyfriends are ugly.” And that includes girls with boyfriends less attractive than themselves. In truth, there are a great number of female malcontents. I haven’t heard of the guy putting other men down, though that’s a tried and true male mating strategy in general (not as true for females).

      Athol Kay talks about winning his wife by convincing her that her bf was a douche and she should dump him. Then he made his move – a kiss on the Ferris wheel, IIRC.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    SayWhaat joked about the little head making the decisions in the heat of the moment and caught a lot of grief for it. And that’s not you, that’s the other Michael.

    Men are reclaiming that joke from women who have used it to demean and humiliate men.

    • Men are reclaiming that joke from women who have used it to demean and humiliate men.

      OK! I guess we girls can have a crack at the hamster and hindbrain then.

  • Herb

    @Sassy

    I want and prefer the “Old World” type of Alpha. John Wayne is a great example of that too, or Mr. Darcy.

    And with that you just made my day.

    In the desert of match.com the number of women who didn’t get the username MDarcy was very disheartening.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    OK! I guess we girls can have a crack at the hamster and hindbrain then.

    Wrong analog…think of all the women at the end of the Vagina Monologues chanting cunt.

  • Jonny

    “Marriage material” is the female equivalent of the friend zone. Neither booty call or long term relationship. Ouch.

  • Tasmin

    @Sassy
    “Exactly. Whenever I think of a true “Alpha”, I don’t picture an immature thug. I envision a man that women and men look up to and respect. Women want him, and men aspire to be like him. He has status, charm, looks, and a killer personality to boot. In other words, he’s worthy of the respect and attention that he receives. Those alpha males have an almost noble air about them. They elicit admiration from practically everyone.”

    Wow. Quite a wish list. The alpha-beta thing has been dissected here already, so I’ll just focus on how this view comes across as highly ego-driven. For the record, I’m not calling you an ‘egotist’ or attacking your desires, but rather illustrating how this manifests to a beta-ish guy.

    It is clear that what you value in this hypothetical man is a function of how other people react to him; your alpha characteristics are nearly all established and maintained via external frames. I may be off, but just looking how you have worded the description is telling (and fairly common of how many women would phrase it, which I think is a bit of a red flag) Because it is not about what you – or any one woman values, but rather how this man is viewed by others in a variety of contexts, essentially how he competes – and wins, at the never-ending game of social status. More on that later.

    This man would be a “9” or a “10” if you will. And based on the preference for his qualities to be known, qualified, and admired by others he would need to be extroverted, highly situationally aware, and likely be pretty ego-driven himself as there is a short list of things that motivate men to continue to seek out (compete) and actively demonstrate (promote) their social status. Most of those things are not congruent with “finding a woman to marry”.

    What is missing are things like modesty and empathy, instead we have “a noble air”. I have met maybe one of these men in my life and I have spent plenty of time in the deep end of the alpha pool. But to just call this unicorn hunting wouldn’t serve my rambling point. The thing is, very few men – even those we call alpha, wish to compete and promote in perpetuity. Those who do, will probably not commit, or if they do, will probably not honor that commitment. And they will have a lifetime of external adoration to mine for rationalizing why they are entitled to do so.

    So from a more beta-ish perspective – let’s say mine, a woman who has a past of seeking out these men and continues to do so is really not a concern. It may be disappointing if I have interest in her, because I will probably not go there. But I would also feel empathetic because she is probably going to flounder for a long time with this strategy (because of a variety of built-in traps that have been covered at HUS extensively: lack of self-awareness re: SMV, low-probability of commitment-minded men of these traits, low % of male population with these traits). I have women friends who, parched and sunburned, continue to stay adrift on that raft, with an island of decent men in sight, but who are convinced that there is a merman out there who will show up (perhaps again – to stay this time).

    The problem is if there is a change in her strategy. Why the change? her SMV is declining, the nesting bug has bitten, her friends are marrying-up, babies, etc. or has she realized the value in other, perhaps less-visible, traits? Change is fine, but discerning the motivation for change can be troubling. Even if the change in strategy is understood, there are two things that tend to stick: the sense that she will always have one eye out to sea, and/or she will continue view my value, my attractiveness in the same light as her previous preference for alpha: as a function of what others attribute in the field of play. I do not wish to compete for the rest of my life nor promote myself in a game of unknowable boundaries. I get that we all must continue to invest in our self, to work on maintaining and building those intricate tendrils of attraction formed early on, but this is not the same as the nagging sense that she wants me to be something I am not and/or she is attracted to things that are merely manifestations of ego – her’s or mine.

    It isn’t quite the same, but similar in some ways to the “catch” of a man who has exclusively pursued and banged or “dated” only 25 y/o models, but at 40 decides he wants a family and then picks you. That high-status is still there, but something might feel a little “off”… But the important difference is that for many women his past and the fact that he picked you can carry that status forward a long while, whereas men are more concerned with what you and you alone value in them.

  • Herb

    @Susan

    OK! I guess we girls can have a crack at the hamster and hindbrain then.

    BTW (and this is relevant to what I quoted), have you ever seen Clerks 2?

  • Mike C

    Spinning plates refers to the goal of always having multiple sexual partners in play. This requires great dexterity, similar to the Chinese performers who carry long sticks with plates spinning stop each one. I think it also requires being an asshole.

    IMO, a guy’s having had some kind of harem, or even attempted one, is even more important a disqualifier than a high N. I think it says a lot about character as well as his view of sex. Remember, the idea is to place your bet on a partner who will be faithful. These are huge red flags.

    Hmmmm….this seems like a new, more extreme position. For the record, the concept of “spinning plates” doesn’t necessitate multiple sexual partners. A guy could be having sex with one girl while working on another in just a conversational stage, or some physical action without intercourse.

    FWIW, this stance puts me squarely in the “asshole” category with “character” issues. When I was first met my fiancee many years ago, I was seeing a few other girls, and having sex with one of them. AT THE TIME WE WERE NOT EXCLUSIVE.

    Once we were exclusive, that was it, and I had nothing to do with any other women. To me, cheating is abhorrent, and I say that as someone who was cheated on. Once you’ve promised exclusivity, that is it. Before you’ve had that talk though, no woman has the right to expect you are either pursuing or sexually involved with her only.

    Of course, the end logical result of this stance is you pretty much have to rule out any guy probably north of 8, maybe 7 as a relationship option. VERY FEW guys with SMVs of 8 or above are going to voluntarily only pursue one option at a time prior to the exclusive relationship talk.

    To be clear, I support the idea of a woman ruling out any guy she wants for whatever reason she wants. Of course, there are trade-offs that come with that.

    • @Mike C

      Hmmmm….this seems like a new, more extreme position. For the record, the concept of “spinning plates” doesn’t necessitate multiple sexual partners.

      I hesitate to offer a quote about this, but I will for the purposes of the discussion:

      Spinning Plates doesn’t necessarily mean you’re fucking all of your plates. It’s more of a spreading out of your efforts across a wider pool of subjects. Some will reciprocate, and those you entertain. Others will not, or prove to be less desirable, and those you let fall.

      I think the implication is pretty clear, and the men who I have seen and heard describe spinning multiple plates use it to expressly describe fucking more than one woman at a time. In fact, as far as I can tell, that is generally the goal – not preventing one-itis, as a more benign spin might claim.

      Speaking for myself, I would never, ever consider having a sexual partner for more than a ONS if he was having sex with someone else. Obviously, many women go with “don’t ask, don’t tell,” which is hazardous from a health standpoint, and often from an emotional standpoint as well. I’m glad that it worked out in your case, but that doesn’t change my advice to women. No double dipping.

      VERY FEW guys with SMVs of 8 or above are going to voluntarily only pursue one option at a time prior to the exclusive relationship talk.

      To be clear, dating multiple people before exclusivity is appropriate and legit. Having sex with one person while continuing to pursue others is not legit. If it is made explicitly clear – IOW if the understanding is that the sex is casual, by both parties, then each person is only responsible for themselves.

      I wonder – if you knew your fiancee was having sex with someone else in the early days of dating you, would you have been OK with that?

  • Mike C

    Tasmin,

    Astounding comment. I had to acknowledge that.

    • I’ll add to the appreciation for Tasmin’s comment. Like so much of Tasmin’s commentary, it’s brilliantly conceived and articulated.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Tasmin
    “very few men – even those we call alpha, wish to compete and promote in perpetuity. *Those who do, will probably not commit, or if they do, will probably not honor that commitment.* And they will have a lifetime of external adoration to mine for rationalizing why they are entitled to do so.”

    *I know two married guys who are just like this (one is now divorced). Both are beta to alpha converts. I guess they feel they must constantly validate the (perceived) womanizing power they worked to acquire.

  • Herb

    “For the record, the concept of “spinning plates” doesn’t necessitate multiple sexual partners. ”

    I thought spinning plates was trying to multi-task at work…

    No one I have so many dating issues.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Mike C, @Susan

    I’ve always thought of “spinning plates” as the constant acting and “trickery” a cad chooses to do to keep one or more of his multiple involvements from blowing up in his face.

    Dating around doesn’t always fall under this category, IMO, just as long as all of those involved have the information and the freedom to make their own choices.

  • J

    I understand it is only one metric, and a pretty simple one, but, in general, most people with a brain in their head prefer things to be non-violent.

    I agree.

  • M3

    When i used the term spinning plates, i used it poorly. I meant to be dating multiple women on the side without actually committing to any until there’s a firm offer of exclusive commitment from the female.

    Having a guy set aside all possibilities while waiting for a woman to decide precludes him from building confidence with abundance mentality.

    Like a woman who books 6 dates in a week keeping all her options open, men should do likewise.

  • Mike C

    I’ve always thought of “spinning plates” as the constant acting and “trickery” a cad chooses to do to keep one or more of his multiple involvements from blowing up in his face.

    Dating around doesn’t always fall under this category, IMO, just as long as all of those involved have the information and the freedom to make their own choices.

    Royale,

    I am 110% against lying or deception. I really believe honesty is the best policy.

    From the time I first started dating, I had 3 separate multi-month periods where I was seeing multiple girls concurrently (not having sex with all of them). You know what. I NEVER had a single girl ask me who else I was seeing or what else I was doing. NOT A SINGLE ONE. I’m talking dates, meeting up at various places, going to their house or apartment, or having them come over to mine. Not once was I asked “who else are you seeing”, “are you seeing anyone else”.

    I couldn’t tell you if that is typical experience, atypical experience, or related to the time frame. I really have no idea. This was kind of 98-00 and also 05-06. Maybe women today question more about that….IDK

  • Just1X

    @Sassy
    “Brb buying a voodoo doll to stick in the oven.”

    let me know how that goes please, I’m interested

    (note to self; buy bigger oven)

  • Ted D

    Tasmin – epic comment. Once you’ve settled a bit in your post red pill mentality, I think you should consider blogging yourself. If nothing else do stick around. Even if I didn’t agree with you (and so far I certainly do) I would still enjoy your comments a great deal.

  • Underdog

    This whole “chicks dig alpha” confusion reminds me of my first fight in college. It’s a little off-topic but it popped into my head for some reason so I thought I’d share.

    The club was packed and I was going back to my friends’ table (full of AFCs) after grabbing a drink. Everyone was squeezing and pushing each other through this tight hallway. And there was this girl — this cute, innocent looking girl who was no doubt the hottest thing I’ve seen thus far in my life — casually leaning against the wall. Shielding her from the moving crowd was this scrawny, rat-like looking kid who had his elbow out so that everyone passing by would be hit by his elbow instead of scraping against his girl. There was no doubt that she was with him; and needless to say, there was absolutely no reason for them to be taking up space in that hallway.

    The little guy must’ve noticed me glancing at his girl as I passed, because he elbowed me extra hard and told me to “watch it”. My feeling of infatuation was immediately replaced by rage and the next thing I knew, my elbow connected with his temple and he dropped like a sack of potato (thanks to a little background in MMA). I swiftly got kicked out.

    On my way home, I kept thinking about how weird girls were and how a girl like her would be soiling her body with a guy like him. The emotions I felt and questions I had about women that night made a much bigger impact on me than what I had physically with that little asshole.

    Then a few months later I said fuck it and became and PUA.

    Then college ruled.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    let me know how that goes please, I’m interested

    (note to self; buy bigger oven)

    I think that this comment was supposed to be directed at SayWhaat instead of me.

    @ Tasmin

    I think that you’ve misunderstood me a bit. I don’t want a guy who feels like he has to peacock around constantly to stay atop any sort of social order. I think that my description of alpha places a lot of emphasis on the qualities that would be associated with a “Natural Alpha” of sorts. The way he is and the way he conducts himself is authentic. He doesn’t have to pretend to be what he is. He simply is. The respect and admiration that he garners from other people are a byproduct of his innate qualities. He is truly a man of good circumstance and character, so people react to him accordingly.

    I’ve met a couple of men who fit this description. They typically are good looking guys with extroverted personalities who don’t act like douches. They are respected by their male companions because they are worthy of respect. They don’t have to put on an act to be perceived as such either. They are just naturally likeable and admirable.

  • @Sassy and @Just
    You cannot buy a Voodoo doll, you need to make it yourself with natural materials and you need a piece of clothing or a photograph from the person you are “charming” to make it work or else nothing will happen. Although voodoo dolls are usually hard to actually charge because you need to do certain rituals and you also need a “bokor” for it to work and it depends a lot in how vulnerable the other person is, unless you have the “light” and don’t knowing and only descendants from bokors have it, not that I know anything about it, just FYI. 😉

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    aaahh that explains why several politicians over here haven’t spontaneously combusted over the last few years – curses, foiled again.

    @Sassy – oops

  • Emily

    >> “You cannot buy a Voodoo doll, you need to make it yourself with natural materials and you need a piece of clothing or a photograph from the person you are “charming” to make it work or else nothing will happen. Although voodoo dolls are usually hard to actually charge because you need to do certain rituals and you also need a “bokor” for it to work and it depends a lot in how vulnerable the other person is, unless you have the “light” and don’t knowing and only descendants from bokors have it, not that I know anything about it, just FYI. ”

    Yikes!

    Note to self: Be nice to Anacaona. (Though I guess it might be difficult to get a piece of my clothing 😛 )

  • @Just
    I remember that it was one of the reasons some of my friends stopped believing on many superstitious if dead people come out of their grave with the level of crime we have all criminals would be death by corpses now, same with politicians, Karma doesn’t like to use magic it looks like.

    @Emily
    Heh you don’t have to worry I’m on your side remember? 😉

  • Sassy, a naturally popular and benevolent alpha guy like that would be swimming in women these days. That’d be competing in a very hot, mainstream market. Personally I went after the guy who isn’t popular but still benevolent and have an alpha backbone, a bit of a “go his own way” kind of guy.

    To me there is no point in competing for the natural alpha guys who are totally smooth with men and women. Not that I have anything against them personally, but the thought that other women would be constantly eyeing him and flirting with him is no bueno. I’m coming at it from an introvert’s perspective though, and if I recall correctly you are an extrovert.

    Here I always thought life was harder for an introvert. But maybe in matters of romance my introversion helped me avoid the types of men most likely to break my heart.

  • Here I always thought life was harder for an introvert. But maybe in matters of romance my introversion helped me avoid the types of men most likely to break my heart.

    I’m an extroverted and I agree with you. I think it has to be something else not just how E or I you are, YMMV.

  • Cooper

    I remember the clip of Clerks 1 that was posted recently – where Dante freaks out about his GFs’ number.

    I’m trying to recall, was there a similar scene in Clerks 2?

  • Herb

    @Susan

    I haven’t seen Clerks 2. Why?

    There is an extended joke about “it’s okay, we’re taking it back” which is what prompted my reply.

    I played it very straight but it was meant to get a smile.

    I think the whole “taking it back” thing is about the biggest load of crap I’ve heard ever since I learned why Queer Nation was (is?) called that. The chanting of cunt at the end of Vagina Monologues is an even more asinine version. I have yet to hear a cogent explanation of how chanting cunt makes a women more comfortable with her body or sexuality.

    Still, if you can’t beat them, join them so when it comes to the two brains joke, “we’re taking it back”.

  • Tasmin

    @Sassy
    I totally get the authenticity. That is something that I seek out as well – and something I find exceedingly difficult to find in women these days, at least initially. But we aren’t talking about DBags really, I was already assuming that ‘your’ alpha was not dark or asshole or lacking character. Sure those things follow closely in the alpha package, but few well-adjusted women would want their unicorn to be a true dick. As for peacocking and the other contrived games and showmanship, it may work in the short-term or on women who have yet to understand their attraction triggers, but I wasn’t thinking of those things relative to the women with a history of and/or desire for alpha.

    To me, alpha and beta are both natural; we may have a natural starting point on the continuum, but we can also improve ourselves or allow ourselves to slip one way or the other, so for me the ‘natural’ part is already assumed. And the whole point of self-improvement and much of ‘game; from what I understand, is about developing certain traits such that they *appear* natural. Its those blurry things like confidence vs cocky. It is really as much about the observer, the one who attributes, as it is about the one who behaves in certain ways, i.e. your ‘confident’ may come across to me as cocky. That said, men can be Dbags, assholes, dicks, egotists, liars, etc. whether they are alpha or beta. Though I will say that the more alpha the man is, the wider berth (benefit of doubt) he is given in this regard. So the first part of your follow-up description can be alpha or beta in the same way:
    “He doesn’t have to pretend to be what he is. He simply is. The respect and admiration that he garners from other people are a byproduct of his innate qualities. He is truly a man of good circumstance and character, so people react to him accordingly.”

    For many men, myself included, it is about context. That statement fits me to a T, however if you were to see me in many settings you *may* not see=feel that I am ‘alpha enough’. So what I see as being more significant is the rest of your statement:
    “They typically are good looking guys with extroverted personalities who don’t act like douches. They are respected by their male companions because they are worthy of respect. They don’t have to put on an act to be perceived as such either. They are just naturally likeable and admirable.”

    Respect is earned through a combination of shared experience and shared values. To an outside observer, men’s behaviors regarding respect can be as slippery as cocky/confident. But nevertheless, it seems that you want a (unanimously) good-looking, extroverted man with high status. Nothing wrong with that. And I appreciate your clarification – because there are women who do want/need their man to compete in some sort of lifelong ego/pissing contest. But I still believe that the practice of searching for and coupling with men of those characteristics but then (eventually) finding a man who feels he differs in deep and meaningful ways can set several challenging things in motion.

    I have lived through this: that sense that my career accolades or other status drivers are more important to her than to me – or at least the attention paid to them. You see the competition doesn’t always have to be with/against other actual living, breathing men. It can be with/against her image of me in all of my alpha greatness, which to me is nothing more than a shadow because I have had a lifetime of valuing myself and my accomplishments based on truly internal, innate things. I’m just am. People respect me for my innate qualities, they always just have. But those things alone do not garner the alpha-like status/dominance that you desire. When the sun is shining on me in those rare moments, I could very well cast a long alpha shadow to the outside observer, but to me, I’m just being me. I wouldn’t want to have that shadow lead me around anymore than I would want those times when the sun is high and my shadow is nothing more than an extra-fat pair of shoes. In my case, I had to compete with this desired image, and in my failings I was indeed replaced by a model that was profoundly more alpha to the outside observer. (A model that had been very much like her go-to men leading up to me)

    That is where the whole thing about wanting to be YOUR alpha vs AN alpha comes into play. And when a woman demonstrates that the optics of social status are more important than those silent-strengths and/or the qualities that operate outside of peak social contexts are of lesser value, then to me that is a red flag. Maybe this is not how you see it, but your language suggested otherwise. I’m admittedly in a strange spot these days due to my experience in the past as well as my more recent experience in which I find myself seen as an alpha by many women, not alpha enough (in the field of play) by others, and view myself as primarily a highly-disciplined beta with a lot of GMOW tendencies. So, you know, grain of salt and all that.

  • Tasmin

    @Ted D
    Thanks Ted, I appreciate the feedback. I sometimes fear that the red pill is kinda stuck in the throat for me, so it may take a while before I develop a more balanced perspective. And I’m often cautious about jumping in here because I don’t want to be one of those guys who scares off the young women that HUS is trained on. And I need to stop with the multitasking so that I can one day deliver a post in under 75 words….ah, I may have just made

  • Jackie

    @pennies (#198)
    ““A woman with N=3 and SMV=6 may have had guys with different SMV ranks—perhaps a 5, a 6, and a 7. Unsurprisingly she ends up in the LTR with the guy with the SMV most similar to her own (the 6), but the Manosphere trope is that 1) she fondly remembers (and why wouldn’t she?) her time with the 7 and 2) that this may have some negative impact on her LTR with the 6. I think the former is a very reasonable assumption, but the latter is more difficult to establish as a general rule.”

    The above calculation/speculation is so odd to me. Among my friends and I, when we are in love, we are in love with the person who is right in front of us. With past partners, things didn’t work out for a reason.”
    ========
    Hi Pennies,

    I have observed that some Game/PUA participants (as well as some women) would really like to boil everything down to a formula that can be objectively evaluated, adjusting permutations and combinations to control the outcome. Lots of quantifying.

    It’s very understandable. Look at all the other areas of life where that works– especially the other realm dealing with the body, fitness. Lots of things in life boil down to a numbers game. It would be really REALLY great if there was some kind of magic formula that you could follow to get “the perfect partner.” Life would be a lot easier (and safer) that way!

    But I believe a lot of it boils down to opportunity, timing, getting out there and plain old dumb luck 🙂

  • Infantry

    @ Susan #170

    Hi Susan, thanks for having me.

    I should clarify when I meant your history, I meant that you dated ‘alpha’ and was quite happy to move past him to something better for you.

    Yes my claim is just that and I don’t have studies to back it up. Annecdotal evidence only absorbed through my own experiences and past time in the PUA community.

    I know for a fact there’s a few women from my past who keep getting in contact with me and asking more intimate questions despite being involved in relationships with less dominant men. This is years after I was involved with them. But yes, AWALT is a stretch.

    By ‘involved with’ I mean casual non-committed relationships, but these all occurred during post-college years. So it fits with the ‘5 minutes of alpha’ theory that women are more likely to want to share an alpha than have a beta full time.

    I agree that some women are ‘alpha chasers’ from the start. The girls I was talking about from my personal experience weren’t. Their experiences largely involved less exciting guys, so when a more exciting, less needy and dominant guy came along who showed no predisposition to settling down, it had more of an impression on them. An impression that would be hard to overcome. Once the guy leaves their lives, in some ways the next guys would have it even worse because they’re fighting a memory.

    I write all this from the perspective of guys being reluctant to get involved with women who are pining away for someone else. They aren’t available for bonding because they’ve already done that with someone else and the bond is either still strong or the mechanism is broken.

    Re: Sexual count=Alpha

    These two definitions cannot be squared. The alpha getting laid by lots of women is not a benign and benevolent creature. He is agentic, self-focused and manipulative, as are his female partners.

    Yes, your description of alpha is probably the most common and mainstream ones out there. I’ve been exposed to other descriptions such as ‘renaissance man’ that promote a more well rounded ideal absent some of the less anti-social elements. You’d probably call it a hybrid of alpha and beta traits. Like Mike C has said, its hard to find pure ‘alphas’ or pure ‘betas’. They make great reference points, but you’re better off talking about ‘alpha’ or ‘beta’ traits.

    When exhibiting a mixed combination I’ve seen guys absolutely clean up with women from the non-‘alpha chaser’ category, although even those girls can switch targets if they meet in a non-short term mating environment (eg not the nightclub). Some ‘alpha chasers’ see guys with hybrid traits and think its their ticket to committment land and try the ‘good girl’ camoflage and climbing up on the pedestal.

    But hybrid guys are absolute catnip to non-alpha chaser girls. With low conscientiousness a hybrid guy can do a lot of damage.

    • @Infantry

      But hybrid guys are absolute catnip to non-alpha chaser girls. With low conscientiousness a hybrid guy can do a lot of damage.

      I agree with this wholeheartedly. A guy with alpha dominance and beta high EQ is the dream. Add in low conscientiousness and/or low empathy and you’re in NPD territory, if not full blown Dark Triad. A very destructive character – and very hard to repel. I’ve said that I pity the woman who gets into the crosshairs of one of these guys – I’ve seen it up close and it was brutal.

  • Mike C

    Speaking for myself, I would never, ever consider having a sexual partner for more than a ONS if he was having sex with someone else. Obviously, many women go with “don’t ask, don’t tell,” which is hazardous from a health standpoint, and often from an emotional standpoint as well. I’m glad that it worked out in your case, but that doesn’t change my advice to women. No double dipping.

    FWIW, I can respect and appreciate that, and I have no issue with that advice. As I said, it is likely to come with a trade-off.

    VERY FEW guys with SMVs of 8 or above are going to voluntarily only pursue one option at a time prior to the exclusive relationship talk.

    Having sex with one person while continuing to pursue others is not legit.

    Well, I’ll respectfully disagree here. I’ll respectfully suggest you consider the full implications of what you are saying here. Dogsquat alluded to this once in the past. Women are either the gatekeepers or they are not. Full stop. An 18+ year old is either an adult or she is not. Full stop. Again, I absolutely, unequivocally reject lying, but it is on the woman to appropriately determine the situation. I see no moral requirement for a man to stop pursuing other options in any form until there formal exclusivity has been established.

    I wonder – if you knew your fiancee was having sex with someone else in the early days of dating you, would you have been OK with that?

    An honest question deserves an honest answer. The answer is no. I think that is one of Rambles “different” standard things. 🙂 I’d expand on that, but I suspect it would be unproductive. Interesting to me, but I think women break down into two camps on this. Those that are bothered by this and those that really are not. Unlike guys, where there is probably close to universal, visceral problems with this. To be clear on this point, I don’t think any woman is going to sign up to be part of some permanent rotation, but I know, have observed, and have experienced that some women will go along with it long enough to try and win the spot of being the exclusive girl. Very few guys if any are going to be OK with competing with some other cocks for a few months to win the gig as the single cock in play.

    And again, on one level I think your position is very sound, and probably minimizes some risk factors. At the same time, in the current SMP, a guy with a high enough SMV simply doesn’t have to play by those rules.

    • @Mike C

      An honest question deserves an honest answer. The answer is no. I think that is one of Rambles “different” standard things.

      I admit I anticipated this response. My first argument is that in this area, there is no different standard – when couples do have the talk, it usually follows the pattern of “Are you seeing anyone else? Me neither. Great. We’re a couple.” The expectation is one of equal footing. And there is no reason that “seeing” should mean something different for either sex. And I respect the right of either party to find that unacceptable and bail.

      My second argument is that if men are allowed to tomcat and women aren’t, then how about the female equivalent, i.e. emotional escalation. While you are sexually escalating with multiple people, the woman might be fostering emotional intimacy with several people. Strong IOIs, focused attention and affection, loyalty, feminine nurturing, generous gestures such as meals cooked, backs rubbed, etc. IOW, a woman auditioning for life partner. Would you be OK with your fiancee doing that with other men while starting to date you?

      I believe you get to reject one option or the other, but not both. 🙂

      And again, on one level I think your position is very sound, and probably minimizes some risk factors. At the same time, in the current SMP, a guy with a high enough SMV simply doesn’t have to play by those rules.

      That’s fine, because he has adopted a short-term mating strategy, and would (or should) be filtered out as a long-term prospect. I can tell you one thing – the young women I know would be absolutely out the door if they got wind that the guy pursuing them was in a sexual relationship. I’ve seen it happen, and that is considered super shady and manwhore behavior. While I’m sure there are women who look the other way, I haven’t seen it, and even the most promiscuous young women in my focus groups never took the bait from a guy doing that.

      As an example from popular culture I offer Hannah in Girls. After banging Adam for 6 months with no strings, she draws the line at sharing him sexually. And he stops.

      Women are wired to have a strong aversion to sharing a man. If a woman tolerates it, it’s because she feels her options are limited, and her SMV is lower than his.

  • Infantry

    @ Hope

    Infantry, are you a new commenter? You like Bellita? She is still single, I believe. 😛

    I have a lot of respect for her. She’s put her money where her mouth is and is actively working on developing her femininity. If more girls did what she did then there would be a lot more marriage material girls out there. It would put poor Roosh out of business.

  • Jackie

    @SayWhaat, Susan
    “SayWhaat got flamed for making this joke. Is anyone going to take Michael to task?”
    ========
    Haha! Don’t hold your breath! Or maybe, save your breath. 😉 Read my exchange with our friend Abbot from page 1 of this thread. Here’s another example (WITH MY COMMENTS IN CAPS):

    #156
    “there are women who can fake this quite effectively”

    Then men are being presented with a trifecta

    Slut (FROM SOMEONE WHO PROMOTES CASUAL SEX FOR MEN)
    Liar (FROM SOMEONE WHO PROMOTES LYING VIA GIVING A FALSE NAME)
    Faker (FROM SOMEONE WHO PROMOTES GIVING A FALSE ADDRESS )

    I really want to like Abbot! He has a zeal and the passion of a thousand suns for his cause. Also, he supports who want to believe they are worth waiting for. But I am never going to advocate lying or sleeping around. I think using other people for sex and then calling them names is extremely uncool.

  • OffTheCuff

    My definitions are very Roissy inspired:

    An alpha is a man who has options with women, and knows he has them. On top of that, he either: exercises them, has exercised them and then decided to stop on his own volition, or consciously decided not to. Of these three, they are increasingly rare, respectively.

    A greater beta can be quite respectable, good looking, confident, and even dominant, but he isn’t an alpha due to missing one of the conditions above. I put my old self in this category. We usually marry young.

    Sassy appears to keep running into the more common alphas, and high-T looking lesser betas – insecure males who happen to look really good. In this thread I believe she is really talking about an exceptionally good-looking beta, despite her strong words.

    In previous posts she talks about “edgy” behavior which is stereotypically alpha, but I see that as a strong correlation, not a definition.

    So yes. Sassy is intentionally fishing in a very shallow pond… about the depth of a puddle on a driveway. But she is super smart and knows it.

    • @OTC

      I like your definitions. Especially because the greater beta is not a loser. I also like the idea of an alpha who chooses to be very discerning in his choice of sexual partners, and I agree that is very, very rare.

  • Infantry

    @ Susan #207

    Wow, that’s a pretty strong endorsement for women escalating emotionally. The more I think about this, the more I think it’s just huge. I don’t know why it took me 3 and a half years to write that post. Yes, it is risky for the woman, but it strikes me as a fair return for the guy’s risk. If she can show that she’s girlfriend material via her actions, rather than demanding exclusivity arbitrarily, she’s building a foundation of IOIs, trust, and investment from the get go. My hypothesis is that this would greatly increase a woman’s success rate, assuming she is choosing wisely in the first place.

    In my experience, this is one of the best things a girl can do to show intent and push towards a LTR. If this doesn’t work its because the girl either isn’t high enough quality (MMV) or the guy is not looking for a LTR (‘You’re the type of girl I’d bring home to mum someday…’).

    Its a good return on the guy’s risk like you say. I’ve had days where I’m disillusioned by the whole dating process because all the responsibility seems to be put on the guys shoulders to approach, arrange the dates, pay, escalate, manage the girl’s emotions etc etc. It seemed like the girl didn’t have to do anything and could just screen the guy with shittests and enjoy the ride without any risk/cost at all.

    But this emotional escalation sounds like a carrot that will keep the guy going.

  • OffTheCuff

    “Spinning plates” is clearly defined as a parallel dating strategy by olloR, considering and pursuing multiple people at once. Going on chaste dates counts, as does having 3 FWB’s in rotation until commitment is arrived at.

    Women do it all the time, because their options are granted by their XX chromosomes. Your pic of “Sandy has 3 loves” strongly implies this. Spinning plates. Women.

    My wife was an exception – she only considered one person at a time.

    • Women do it all the time, because their options are granted by their XX chromosomes. Your pic of “Sandy has 3 loves” strongly implies this. Spinning plates. Women.

      I don’t think women have multiple sexual partners at a time, or at least it’s rare. Sandy’s three loves, btw, are softball, horses and Tad.

      Women keep their dating options open while they shop for a partner, and there’s no reason men can’t do the same. But having sex is a whole different ballgame, IMO. The SDS notwithstanding, the idea of a guy banging some slut the day before taking my daughter on a first date is sickening. At the very least, she deserves to know about his behavior. Certainly, before sex occurs, he is morally obligated to share that he is sexually active with one or more other people. Everyone has the right to know that from a health standpoint.

  • Infantry

    @ J #254

    While it is a truly beautiful thing to feel, people shouldn’t pin all their hopes on that kind of feeling because for half of us, when the dopamine production slows, there’s not much left. It’s better to find someone you can still feel attached to as opposed to being on a constant search for that “light” in the face

    Yes, I’m aware. It shows bonding for the early part of the relationship. For the record after this phase she would still light up, but less intensely. She was a genuinely feminine women who revelled in treating others well.

    I was only with her for 4 years so I can’t speak of what happens after 7 years. Its outside of my direct experience. I’d suspect finding a woman that treats everyone well (within reason) would be a good start rather than someone who just looks after her man. Its the corollary to girls watching to see how the man treats the waiter.

  • Rum

    The Beatles were all extraordinarily bright. When they played together in their prime they hit every beat dead on like a carefully tuned Swiss Watch.. No other band has even tried to do that. Charlie Watts of the RS or Frank Beard of ZZ Top or any other great RR drummer would admit to putting out a spread of percussive sounds on the beat to broaden the target for the others. Ringo hit everything on his kit in perfect sync and the others followed that with uncanny precision. That is one of many reasons why no one has even been able to copy their sound – after 40 years.

  • Cooper

    “SayWhaat got flamed for making this joke. Is anyone going to take Michael to task?”

    I’m not taking anyone to task, just putting the two jokes side by side – for everyone else to see.

    SayWhaat in response to male birthcontrol pill:
    “(And I highly doubt men would be more responsible about taking it, anyway. Please, men are infamous for being of “two minds” — whichever one happens to possess the most blood at the time.)”

    Michaels comment in response to being a MGTOW:
    “Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.”

  • Infantry

    Re: Plate spinning

    Maybe this is about intent. If the purpose is to create a harem, I can see why girls are repulsed. If the purpose is to avoid oneitis and to concurrently date to find a parter for a LTR, then I think its less of an issue. To be honest I’m in the second category right now.

    People should be aware that in the current SMV girls can disappear without so much as a text. Putting any emotions into a girl before she’s showed investment is a silly move. This fits nicely with putting the responsibility for emotional escalation onto the girls.

    Dating multiple girls (spinning plates) keeps me level (avoids oneitis) and allows me to more quickly find a partner. I’m not having sex with multiple girls.

    My issue is finding girls who sense that I might be seeing more than one girl and are turned off by it (ala Hope). If I go serial dating one after another it will mess with my emotional state and make me less attractive as girls will sense more neediness.

    I think the best thing to do is find something in between. Spin plates to find a quality girl more quickly, and then quickly stop spinning plates once that girl has been found, but before she feels that she’s just another plate or that you’re a player. I haven’t come across a girl like this yet. At least not recently.

    • @Infantry

      People should be aware that in the current SMV girls can disappear without so much as a text. Putting any emotions into a girl before she’s showed investment is a silly move. This fits nicely with putting the responsibility for emotional escalation onto the girls.

      I agree, and of course it’s true for women as well. I’d venture to say that “why didn’t he call?” is a very popular Google search term.

      Dating multiple girls (spinning plates) keeps me level (avoids oneitis) and allows me to more quickly find a partner. I’m not having sex with multiple girls.

      Bravo, for the record I fully endorse this as a sound strategy that harms no one and benefits you.

      I think the best thing to do is find something in between. Spin plates to find a quality girl more quickly, and then quickly stop spinning plates once that girl has been found, but before she feels that she’s just another plate or that you’re a player

      I agree this is a good balance. Precisely because so many girls have been burned by a cad or two, many of the ones who are not inclined toward promiscuity become quite wary. That’s why emotional escalation scares them so much – what if they “go all in” and the guy turns out to be a cad? The metaphor of spinning plates, while useful for men, makes women feel in theory and in practice like an object being juggled.

      As I said earlier, I’ve had men boast to me directly. “I’m spinning three plates right now!” “I was spinning two plates, but one dropped, so I’m on the lookout. Trying to get two new plates spinning.”

      Avoiding one-itis is one thing. Bragging rights is something quite different.

  • J

    I’d suspect finding a woman that treats everyone well (within reason) would be a good start rather than someone who just looks after her man. Its the corollary to girls watching to see how the man treats the waiter.

    Yes, indeed!

  • Rum

    In their day, none of the Beatles could read or make sense of a normal musical score. Therefore, they did not realize their offense or feel enough shame when they made Beethoven Roll Over or Tchchosky sing the blues.
    They faced multiple shit tests, for sure, from all sides. And no shit tests have ever been so thoroughly turned into vaporized atomic payback as their performance August 1965 in Shea Stadium/

  • J

    My wife was an exception – she only considered one person at a time.

    I never dated more than one guy at a time.

  • I agree with this wholeheartedly. A guy with alpha dominance and beta high EQ is the dream. Add in low conscientiousness and/or low empathy and you’re in NPD territory, if not full blown Dark Triad. A very destructive character – and very hard to repel. I’ve said that I pity the woman who gets into the crosshairs of one of these guys – I’ve seen it up close and it was brutal.

    Cosign this. I call this type of men (and some women) Walking Black Holes nothing escapes their event horizon and once inside, it gets divided onto its most basic molecules and can never go back to their former self. *shrugs*

  • Abbot

    “there are women who can fake this quite effectively”

    Then men are being presented with a trifecta

    Slut Liar Faker

    Clearly then, women do not believe men buy into “men should love me for who I am” since that really means “love me for all I have done” and even the dumbest woman knows thats not going to fly. Men will not change. Despite the glaringly obvious man shortage, women could try being less desperate.

  • poester99

    Royale W. Cheese June 24, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    I’ve learned that I am “marriage material.” This has been reiterated by nearly every boyfriend I’ve had. Ironically, none of them ever proposed, so does that count as a valid lesson? lol.

    lol… Interesting introspection

    o/t … finally watched all of Pulp Fiction

  • Esau

    Jackie (way back) at 149: “[H]ave I offended you in some way? …Thank you, Esau, for considering my request.”

    Since you ask so politely I’ll try to be more informative and direct. You haven’t offended me personally, but I do think that what you’ve written here adds up to being decidedly offensive in general. I could go on for a while, but let me just highlight two counts.

    First let’s recall your spontaneous, unsolicited advice at 97 (formerly 99):

    Observe how they narrate the story of their own life. “Victim mentality” = red flag!

    At this point there is no reason to suspect that you’re using the phrase “victim mentality” other than in a glib and general fashion. But I’ll give you credit for the more specific version you describe at 149:

    Victim mentality is defined as “the fabrication of victim-hood for a variety of reasons such as to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy or attention seeking.”

    Now, do you see the problem here? By recommending that everyone — with you yourself as presumably the leading example — should/can readily identify this specific “victim mentality” in another person, simply by observing how they narrate their own story, you are presuming that you can detect, quickly & reliably, who is fabricating victim-hood and who is not. Really, who set you up to judge the veracity of others so definitively? I would call that a sin of pride, as well as tempting others to do likewise.

    The Rochester example you cite fails badly compared to your injunction. Yes, if you have the quasi-omniscient knowledge of the narrative then of course you can identify “victim mentality” reliably. But you didn’t recommend withholding judgement until the full and omniscient truth is available, you recommended Red Flagging people based on narrative style alone (don’t feel bad, though, as you have plenty of company; see below). In effect, putting your above-quoted remarks together with the Rochester quotation, your advice is that anyone who so much as starts a sentence with the phrase “I like to lay half the blame on ill fortune and adverse circumstances…” should be summarily denounced as a fabricator immediately, never mind if he actually did suffer ill fortune and adverse circumstance (as Dreyfus certainly did).

    The second count is that you don’t seem to have appreciated the kind of company with which you’re traveling here. Yes, I suppose a case could be made that if one really does observe a sufficient weight of evidence to conclude beyond any reasonable doubt that a person is “fabricating victim-hood” for some poor purpose, then that should constitute a red flag against taking up with them. But, let’s be real here: how many times will people who follow your advice actually judge patiently, fairly and impartially? versus having a different kind of agenda.

    I don’t know where you’ve been reading, but if you skate any self-described feminist blogs touching on the SMP then you will likely encounter the “Nice Guy (TM)” canard. The mechanism is admirably simple: any male who complains publicly that he was given short shrift in the SMP despite (or due to) being a good and decent person, will be resoundingly and immediately denounced as a “fake nice guy” who actually isn’t nice at all, and so must have deserved his fate of sound rejection (if not worse). Really, the economy of the device is breathtaking: anyone who complains is automatically identified, thereby, as a criminal who deserves no sympathy. Stalin himself could hardly do better.

    Can you not recognize these feminists as being, arguably, your fellow travelers here? What you’re both exhibiting, in my opinion, is a quickness, an eagerness, a reflex to discount men who might complain; to shove them out of the light and out of earshot, to push the blame back onto them as quickly as possible and justify their ignominy (“Red flag!”). Stalin’s motivation was never to have the state be publicly criticized; the feminists’ motivation is to ensure that women, as a group, cannot be criticized. I can’t presume to know your own motivations — maybe you just want people to be happy! and nothing more than that — but your recommended devices share an uncomfortable overlap with some pretty unsavory tactics.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ah, I misread that then. Thought the book was about choosing from 3 boys.

    As for women plate-spinning, again, it’s parallel courtship and/or sex, not just sex. Lots of women use the monkeybar strategy – audition the new boyfriend and get him “on the line” before dumping the old one. Varying levels of intimacy ranging from coy implications to kissing to outright sex.

    But the commonality is this: having more than one active courtship going at once.

    • @OTC

      Lots of women use the monkeybar strategy — audition the new boyfriend and get him “on the line” before dumping the old one.

      The “lots of women do it” rationalization is problematic from an ethical standpoint, in my view. This is often the excuse used for men who wish to justify manipulating women into dread, jealousy, or even sex by pretending interest in a relationship. The old “High heels, makeup, push-up bras! It’s exactly the same thing!” Um, no it’s not. The male equivalent is a t-shirt that shows off your biceps or deliberately leaving a day or two of stubble on your face.

      This is similar pretzel logic. When you generalize about people using the lowest common denominator, you’re behaving in a way that penalizes them regardless of their behaviors. It’s the “I assume all women are sluts strategy.” It’s a race to the bottom, and likely to catch innocent victims in your net.

      But the worst thing about it is that you’re going to miss the opportunity to date someone of quality. A woman with any self-respect whatsoever would not tolerate being treated as some composite wench you’re out to triumph over.

  • poester99

    I have wondered aloud whether we aren’t all descended from the most successful dominant males – since they were the ones who would have reproduced and bestowed “superior genes.”

    Researchers have theorized there are approximately 6 of them from way back (based on genotype tracing), including Genghis Khan, that most of the world is descended from.

  • Jackie

    @Esau
    Wouldn’t you be happier just abstaining from reading my posts?

    I ask because you are so quick to mock me: You state that you can see no higher ambition for me than a penal colony– can you not see how this is unkind? Does it truly make you feel better to speak sarcastically to others?

    As mentioned, I have a great many faults. Is it possible you do as well? Because in my experience, criticism can definitely be wielded constructively, in a way that makes the one receiving it more than glad to change. I wish I could say this after reading your posts.

    Esau, have you ever heard the phrase, “People will not remember what you did, they will remember the way you made them feel”?

    I will review your latest post and respond when I have a moment. Best wishes in the meanwhile–

  • Well, I did have multiple “prospects,” but only dated one guy at a time. Dating multiple people, to me, connotes kissing a whole bunch of different people in one month, or something like that, which I just couldn’t do. I’d talk to multiple interesting guys in one month, but often did not even physically touch. This was a personal quirk of mine, however. My kiss N is in single digit as a result.

  • Jackie

    @Esau
    Hi again Esau,

    I have formed a rebuttal to your response. When you are able to conduct yourself towards me as a gentleman I will look forward to sharing it with you.

    I don’t tolerate men (or women) mocking me or using scathing sarcasm in real life; why should I online? I respect your intellect and discipline enough to hold you to the same standards that exist IRL.

    Good night and kindest regards, Esau–

    • To wake up and see Jackie in the crosshairs of an attack from anyone is surreal. The internet’s kindest, gentlest soul is dodging sniper fire. This unmade my day.

  • Rum

    To be a Beatle fan back in the day was to be on intimate terms with words like “World Historic Genius.” or “Sorry about your generation,; trying to suck nourishment from barren tits.”

  • Rum

    Bang Bang, Shoot Shoot, Happiness is a warm gun….
    White Album. Christmas 1969…

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    Re: Spinning Plates

    It’s really just another example of how both sexes compete against each other in today’s SMP of combat dating.

    For the record, I do think your advice for girls to avoid guys that spin plates is definitely the best advice FOR THEM. However, telling a guy to not spin plates puts him at a clear disadvantage.

    It’s almost impossible for a guy to cultivate the “take it or leave it ” attitude that most girls require for attraction unless he’s getting sex somewhere.

    It’s not a case of double or different standards, but simply adapting to the market to maximize one’s leverage to get a desired result.

    If it is made explicitly clear – IOW if the understanding is that the sex is casual, by both parties, then each person is only responsible for themselves.

    I disagree with this. All sex is casual unless an exclusive relationship is clearly expressed and defined. To assume otherwise is dangerous for either sex.

    “Are you seeing anyone else? Me neither. Great. We’re a couple.”

    Bad strategy. Just because the person isn’t seeing someone else at that moment doesn’t mean you’re automatically a couple. Again, the smart move is to assume otherwise unless the other person clearly shows and verbalizes that you’re a couple.

    That’s fine, because he has adopted a short-term mating strategy, and would (or should) be filtered out as a long-term prospect. I can tell you one thing – the young women I know would be absolutely out the door if they got wind that the guy pursuing them was in a sexual relationship. I’ve seen it happen, and that is considered super shady and manwhore behavior. While I’m sure there are women who look the other way, I haven’t seen it, and even the most promiscuous young women in my focus groups never took the bait from a guy doing that.

    I’m not discounting what you’ve seen and heard from your focus groups, but I don’t see that to be the prevailing behavior out there… Sure, girls might not like that a guy’s spinning plates, but in the end they as a whole seem to be far more willing to forgive than guys are on this issue. As Mike said, if a guy’s attractive and confident enough, he doesn’t have to play by the rules (which are enforced, or in this case not enforced, by the girls).

    The SDS notwithstanding, the idea of a guy banging some slut the day before taking my daughter on a first date is sickening. At the very least, she deserves to know about his behavior. Certainly, before sex occurs, he is morally obligated to share that he is sexually active with one or more other people. Everyone has the right to know that from a health standpoint.

    We can talk morals all we want, but from a personal standpoint what incentive does he have to share that?

    I’ll take your daughter out of the equation, because I don’t want to make things personal…. but what if the either girl wasn’t a slut? What if both girls were just your typical girl who puts out relatively early before commitment, operates on “don’t ask don’t tell”, and takes her time emotionally escalating… and he’s just taking his time trying to determine if either are worth committing to? I can understand why you don’t like that scenario, but can you honestly argue that it doesn’t place him in a more advantageous situation than if he were sexually pursuing either girl exclusively from the get go?

    • @Jimmy

      can you honestly argue that it doesn’t place him in a more advantageous situation than if he were sexually pursuing either girl exclusively from the get go?

      Of course it does, and he can generally pull it off only by lying by omission. Since you claim that many women don’t mind, why not be up front about his activities and what he is looking for? “Just so you know, you’re not the only person I’m doing this with.” Heck, according to your theory, this should be a DHV.

      Having sex concurrently with multiple people is a *huge* risk factor for disease.

      That said, I do not absolve women of the responsibility of asking. If a woman doesn’t ask, I have no sympathy for her.

      From an ethical standpoint, what matters is *intent.* If everyone is shitty to one another, that doesn’t make the behavior ethical.

      We can talk morals all we want, but from a personal standpoint what incentive does he have to share that?

      If being a good and moral person is not an incentive, I don’t know what to say.

      The truth is, sex is never casual, even for men (Helen Fisher). It’s a complex chemical occurrence with many implications for the individuals involved.

      Having said all that, I am not in the business of telling men what to do. I will, however, tell women that they should immediately reject any man who pursues them while entangled in a sexual liaison of any kind with someone else. No overlap, no double dipping. This is not a power grab – this is common sense.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Basically, from a guy’s perspective:

    If you’re out looking to buy a new car, and you find two dealerships that are willing to let you keep a car for a month to test drive it before deciding if you’ll buy it or not… you’d be stupid not to take them up on the offer.

    I’d tell every buddy I know that they’d be stupid to go back to the old way of buying after only one test drive.

    But if one of of my friends owned a car dealership, I’d tell him he was an idiot to let anyone have a car to test drive more than a day or two.

    The buyer and the seller are at cross purposes…. what’s good for one isn’t necessarily good for the other. And unfortunately, that’s the kind of SMP we’ve decided to create over the last 40 years.

    • The buyer and the seller are at cross purposes…. what’s good for one isn’t necessarily good for the other. And unfortunately, that’s the kind of SMP we’ve decided to create over the last 40 years.

      That is such a copout. No one decided to create this SMP. Not even the feminists. Every one of us plays a role.

      How about this? How about we practice the Golden Rule in dating?

      I didn’t think so.

  • Jackie

    @Jimmy Hendrix
    “We can talk morals all we want, but from a personal standpoint what incentive does he have to share that?”

    Aren’t our behaviours now determining the future SMP of our children? I can’t think of any stronger incentive than that.

  • ExNewYorker

    @Susan,

    I think Jimmy and Mike C. have given pretty good insights into the “spinning plates issue”. Heck, even a reformed beta like myself was dating someone else at the time I began dating my wife. The fact I had options was one of the major reasons I had the confidence to pursue more aggressively and with a more devil may care attitude.

    ” I can tell you one thing – the young women I know would be absolutely out the door if they got wind that the guy pursuing them was in a sexual relationship.”

    Don’t ask, don’t tell. It’s how my favorite cads pull off that scenario…the women don’t really want to know and never ask. Shocking…cads acting like cads…since they’re not being penalized for it, there’s no incentives to stop. Another contributing factor is the women themselves are not really looking for a true commitment…a LTR with some guy you might not even be with in 6 months is a far cry from a real commitment. It’s the curse of serial monogamy…the monogamy has become less and less important than the serial part…

    “As Mike said, if a guy’s attractive and confident enough, he doesn’t have to play by the rules (which are enforced, or in this case not enforced, by the girls).”

    Jimmy nails it here. These guys don’t play by the rules because they are not penalized for it. In fact, women often reward it…

    • @ExNewYorker

      Don’t ask, don’t tell. It’s how my favorite cads pull off that scenario…the women don’t really want to know and never ask. Shocking…cads acting like cads…since they’re not being penalized for it, there’s no incentives to stop.

      Well you’ve just acknowledged that spinning plates with sex is a cad move. I agree. In fact, “don’t ask, don’t tell” is a cad move and a coward’s move. I’ve heard plenty of stories where guys actually uttered that phrase to defend their actions.

      These guys don’t play by the rules because they are not penalized for it. In fact, women often reward it

      Well, we’re back to NAWALT. I’ll just say that a woman who is avoiding commitment and rewarding a guy for spinning plates is a good match for that guy. They’re both in a strictly short-term mentality, and I have no problem with that. My job is to do what I can do keep women with a long-term mindset from wasting time with cads.

  • Rum

    No….

  • Jackie

    @JH

    Hi again Jimmy,

    You said in the Father’s Day thread you are pro-life, right? Does sleeping around concern you at all? How do your beliefs affect your actions?

    I ask because I have had friends get pregnant on: the pill, condoms, diaphram (Mirena), condom + pill (never missed a day– she was from an incredibly prolific family, btw) and Norplant. These were all women in committed relationships; they all continued the pregnancies, by the way.

    If the success rate is 99%, there is still that 1% window. What is your plan if you get someone pregnant from casual sex?

  • Jackie

    I have never assumed a guy was exclusive with me until he introduced me as his girlfriend (and usually to parents, closest friends and colleagues). I assumed he was dating others; it was a good way of keeping myself from getting overly attached too soon.

    I’ve never been able to date more than one guy at a time– it’s just the way I’m made. So I did my best to be focused on my friends and other activities (school and my profession). I can totally understand the tendency to not want to think about it: It’s way more flattering not to know!

    As much as I dislike this plate spinning stuff, I think these guys are providing a valuable service. I hope that every girl who could be hurt by casual sex reads this and changes her actions accordingly. This could be a huge silver lining. 🙂

  • Thrasymachus

    @Anacaona:

    Wonderful book, cosign the recommendation. I must add though that this perfect Alpha was written by a woman. In fact I don’t remember any fictional male written by a man that makes a woman fall for him. If you look at how men describe and write the perfect woman in their own love stories most women find her usually unlikeable, lackluster and bland, also probably too slutty. If there was any proof that the genders will never agree literature should be it.

    This works both ways. The sociology of genre fiction (mysteries, thrillers, romance, sci-fi) is one of my research interests, so I have read A LOT of romance novels. Neither the heroes nor the heroines featured in these novels (almost all written by women) seem realistic or appealing to me. The heroes are generally super alphas who behave like supplicating betas. They have alpha characteristics – they are handsome, wealthy, confident, powerful figures – but even the ones who are supposed to be “rakes” or womanizers rarely have any game. Instead, they are very emotional – desperately, crazily, head over heels in love. They are amazingly eager to get married, and willing to pursue the heroine no matter how often they are rejected.

    And the hero’s attitude towards sex is perhaps the least realistic aspect of his depiction. As soon as he meets the heroine he instantly loses all sexual interest in any other woman. The most ludicrous scenes I have read involve heroes who are so much in loooove that they are actually impotent with other women, however beautiful. These men are not (usually) currently involved in a relationship with their heroine – the scene is written to show how obsessed and infatuated they are. Not many men behave like that in the real world.

    As for the heroines, I often find myself wondering – what does he see in her? The romance hero, whatever his faults, at least has qualities that appeal to women. The heroine’s qualities are not, however, designed to appeal to men but rather qualities that feminist writers want to see in women. The heroine is generally described as “strong” (above all else), “smart,” “feisty”and “independent,” and the hero is supposed to love her for those attributes. He is not supposed to care about her appearance (that is considered “shallow,” although the hero is almost always gorgeous) or about the number of sexual partners she has had (that is “judgmental”). The psychological qualities that really appeal to men – empathy, agreeableness, emotional stability – are de-emphasized or rejected. In real life, of course, men rarely fall in love with a woman’s resume.

    As a result of all this the typical romance novel consists of a high status hero (SMV 9 or 10) chasing a heroine who is a 7 at best in most men’s eyes. I understand the appeal of this fantasy, but it is not one that most men would find either realistic or appealing.

  • Mireille

    @Jimmy Hendricks

    I like how you’re comparing women, human beings, to cars, objects. Do we all come with some type of insurance against broken hearts, STDs and bad reputation. Maybe you realize that while you’re spinning plates on your side, other men (like some in this thread) are saying ” yeah, that’s the girl that dated that ‘alpha’ who was dating a bunch of other women at the same time. I wouldn’t touch her with a 10 ft pole.” So you guys need to figure out among each other men what strategy you want to adopt. It is a double standard period! If you want to selfishly consider your interests, then be clear about it. However, hearing about all that bs about how damaged women are when they were simply the losers in some guy spinning cycle is just unfair and convenient. It is actually one of the reasons why, while not being an advocate of casual sex and shaming, I abhor all that pontificating about women’s low count, men insecurity, mythical alphas, and so on. At the end of the day, people do what they want to do.

    More generally, on “commitmentsluts”, I met a guy like that 2years ago, used to go to the same uni. That guy is pure beta, and not even a hot one: beer belly, smoker, lots of debts, no job, forgettable face. Yet he was very quick at putting commitment on the table. I run away after 2weeks of dating because I knew his eagerness to escalade sexually and be in a relationship was just a way for him to secure a permanent sex partner, regardless of who it was (he didn’t really knew me at all). He has had 4 girlfriends since then. I’m actually good friend now with one of his exes. And from what I heard through the grapevine, he wouldn’t have been sexually satisfied with me so happy I dodged that one. Just to illustrate that the obsessive distinction between Alpha and Beta is just a waste of time. That guy was objectifying me just as a supposed alpha cad would do just to get access to sex but without really creating a connection. And let’s face it, if I’m going to objectified by both “alphas” and “betas”, I’d better get a motorcycle ride out of it.

    • And let’s face it, if I’m going to objectified by both “alphas” and “betas”, I’d better get a motorcycle ride out of it.

      OMG my day is already getting better! This is so fantastic, I love it. Look for this to show up at the top of a post soon.

  • Thrasymachus

    @Ramble:

    I would say more than a corner. Look at how little gang violence there is amongst Europeans and Asians. I understand it is only one metric, and a pretty simple one, but, in general, most people with a brain in their head prefer things to be non-violent.

    Gang violence is not a good metric for all violence, and violence is not a function of race. Europe has witnessed a number of not so little episodes of violence, including the Thirty Years War and World War II – not to mention more recent events such as the unpleasantness in the former Yugoslavia. The same can be said for Asia (e.g. the riots at the time when India was partitioned), Africa (Rwanda, anyone?), North and South America or Australasia.

    The same applies to intelligence. Not even their severest critics ever suggested that the Nazis were stupid.

  • Infantry

    For the record, I do think your advice for girls to avoid guys that spin plates is definitely the best advice FOR THEM. However, telling a guy to not spin plates puts him at a clear disadvantage.

    It’s almost impossible for a guy to cultivate the “take it or leave it ” attitude that most girls require for attraction unless he’s getting sex somewhere.

    This is pretty much it. I doubt this gap will ever be bridged.

    While still meeting the girls’ requirements of not having sex with any other girl, the ‘take it or leave it’ attitude can only be met by a guy with a low sex drive, by a guy that is just out of a relationship or by a MGTOW guy who really doesn’t want women in his life.

    So the only way for a normal guy can realistically play by the girls’ rules is through a ‘when stars align’ event where he’s just out of a relationship, but doesn’t have baggage that will stop him getting involved with someone else.

    Or the girl has to deal with the neediness that comes from a long sexual drought.

  • Thrasymachus

    The metaphor of spinning plates seems to mean different things to different people. In general, however, I think that it is critical for a man to have options, precisely because men with options are far more attractive to women. Men without options tend to come across as desperate and overly eager to please, and those qualities are the kiss of death to attraction as far as most women are concerned.

    Once you are in a committed monogamous relationship you should not be sexually involved with anyone else at all. Anything else constitutes cheating. Every man (and woman) needs to determine how and when this transition occurs. I would say that when you are ready for commitment and feel confident that your partner feels the same way you should exit any other romantic/sexual relationships.

    • I would say that when you are ready for commitment and feel confident that your partner feels the same way you should exit any other romantic/sexual relationships.

      The problem is in the conflating romantic and sexual. For the record, I have no problem with this scenario:

      Guy has FWB or other sexual activity he is not invested in.

      Guy meets girl he would like to get to know better romantically.

      Guy takes girl on dates, no sex.

      Guy realizes he likes girl and wants to pursue it further.

      Guy ends FWB and proceeds with girl.

      By the way, there is protocol in hookup culture. Any guy “getting multiple” is quickly branded a manwhore. Naturally, that will attract manwhore lovers.

      For everyone else, even making out with two people in the same weekend is viewed as shady. I’ve seen both girls and guys called out for it. This happens when one party is going into the hookup with an eye toward establishing a relationship (true more than 50% of the time) and the other person behaves in such a way that makes clear they’re not on the same page. The one with real interest will then say, “WTF! We hooked up Friday, and Saturday night you left the party with him? You are such a skank.” Similarly, I’ve seen many situations where a girl is hooking up with a guy she really likes, they seem to be getting tight, then one Sunday morning her friends sit her down and let her know that the guy hooked up with someone new the night before. This always causes drama and ends the hooking up.

      The most important thing that needs to change in the SMP is sluts getting with non-sluts. That is where all the difficulty arises.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Jackie

    Aren’t our behaviours now determining the future SMP of our children? I can’t think of any stronger incentive than that.

    With an economy that’s going to get worse before it gets better and the genuine challenge of finding, attracting, and keeping a girl that meets the high standards to be the mother of my children, I’ve made peace with the very real possibility that I might not have kids.

    You said in the Father’s Day thread you are pro-life, right? Does sleeping around concern you at all? How do your beliefs affect your actions?

    I’m definitely more of a traditionalist. Both my mom and dad came from devout Catholic families. But I’m also a realist.

    The proliferation of casual sex definitely concerns me, but there’s no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Our society is what it is. Unless you’d like to be a hermit, the best I or anyone else can do is adapt and play by the rules put in front of us. So I choose not to fault anyone for doing that.

    If the success rate is 99%, there is still that 1% window. What is your plan if you get someone pregnant from casual sex?

    Well it doesn’t matter what I’d plan, I have no decision in the matter. And while also acknowledging that I can’t be 100% sure what I’d do until I was actually faced with that situation, I like to think I’d pursue 50% custody.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Mireille
    To an extent, I meant for my example to be ridiculous to illustrate just how ridiculous the current SMP is.

    Maybe you realize that while you’re spinning plates on your side, other men (like some in this thread) are saying ” yeah, that’s the girl that dated that ‘alpha’ who was dating a bunch of other women at the same time. I wouldn’t touch her with a 10 ft pole.”

    I’d say the same thing. She has the right to have sex with whomever she wants, and they have the right to form their own beliefs about it.

    It is a double standard period! If you want to selfishly consider your interests, then be clear about it.

    It’s not a double standard. Girls just seem more willing to gamble their best interest than guys are. FWIW, I support Susan’s advice not to do that 100%.

    At the end of the day, people do what they want to do.

    No argument from me.

  • Abbot

    “a girl that meets the high standards to be the mother of my children”

    Thus the low and continually declining marriage rate and the new desperation wave of feminism

  • Michael

    ”I’ve learned that I am “marriage material.” This has been reiterated by nearly every boyfriend I’ve had. Ironically, none of them ever proposed, so does that count as a valid lesson? lol.”

    I feel for you. The women who insisted I was marriage material never opened their legs for me and would insist on remembering me that some other dude who was a douchebag got it for free, lol.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Of course it does, and he can generally pull it off only by lying by omission.

    This might just be a philosophical difference between us, but I think “lying by omission” is kind of an oxymoron.

    Having sex concurrently with multiple people is a *huge* risk factor for disease.

    No doubt, but that’s an understood risk anyone of either gender willingly takes by having sex prior to a committed relationship.

    Having said all that, I am not in the business of telling men what to do. I will, however, tell women that they should immediately reject any man who pursues them while entangled in a sexual liaison of any kind with someone else. No overlap, no double dipping. This is not a power grab – this is common sense.

    I support that advice 100%. No objection.

    I just find it weird that in the past you always came from the standpoint that as long as there wasn’t deception, the guy wasn’t a cad and you didn’t have issue with it. Now any guy who’s having sex with more than one girl at once is suddenly unethical?

    The real problem is that the social contract between men and women and all the black and white rules for courtship that we had prior to the sexual revolution have been completely blown up and disregarded. Everything takes place in the gray area these days. Can’t fault a guy for adapting to his environment.

    • @Jimmy

      I just find it weird that in the past you always came from the standpoint that as long as there wasn’t deception, the guy wasn’t a cad and you didn’t have issue with it. Now any guy who’s having sex with more than one girl at once is suddenly unethical?

      Well, that gets straight to the “lying by omission” problem. I consider that deception. As always, I argue that it comes down to intent.

      Is it likely the girl does not know you’re banging other people?

      Does she seem like a girl who would object to that if she did know?

      Do you ever change the subject or gloss over details to avoid mentioning that you were with other women recently?

      Do you feel secure that she considers sex an important act and is not having sex with anyone but you?

      Is she someone you would regret giving genital herpes to?

      Do you get the sense during sex that she does not view the act as casual?

      Do you get the sense that she would be upset to learn that you view the sex as no-strings?

      If you can answer yes to any of these questions, you’re deceiving another human being into making a choice without full information, which you possess. Since you’re already getting sex elsewhere, I find it especially difficult to imagine a justification for this.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    You seem to be advocating exclusivity before a committed relationship is even established.

    If that’s the case, I don’t know why any guy who has awareness of the contemporary SMP would sign up for it. Seems like he’s just signing away all his power and giving it to her. That never ends well.

    • @Jimmy

      You have gotten me thinking. I’m scrapping my intended post for today and I’m going to research lying. I’ve already discovered that lying by omission is by no means roundly rejected by philosophers – opinions vary. In fact, Kant seems to imply it’s necessary for the good of society. It’s a fascinating subject. Anyway, I promise to come at it fairly.

  • Ramble

    My second argument is that if men are allowed to tomcat and women aren’t, then how about the female equivalent, i.e. emotional escalation. While you are sexually escalating with multiple people, the woman might be fostering emotional intimacy with several people. Strong IOIs, focused attention and affection, loyalty, feminine nurturing, generous gestures such as meals cooked, backs rubbed, etc. IOW, a woman auditioning for life partner. Would you be OK with your fiancee doing that with other men while starting to date you?

    Susan, you are desperate to find analogous behaviour between guys and girls, but our experiences are not analogous.

    This is not to say that you shouldn’t defend your position, but that looking for analogous behaviour is always problematic. And, it is one of the reasons why we have Different Standards in that SMP more often than Double Standards.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    *signing away* doh

  • Ramble

    The old “High heels, makeup, push-up bras! It’s exactly the same thing!” Um, no it’s not. The male equivalent is a t-shirt that shows off your biceps or deliberately leaving a day or two of stubble on your face.

    No, that is not the male equivalent. There is no male equivalent. OK, this is going to be my next hobby horse that I drill in as much as possible.

    Our experiences are not analogous.

    There is no male equivalent to a woman giving birth.
    There is no female equivalent to a man getting multiple girls pregnant at the (roughly) same time.
    There is no female equivalent to a man being cuckholded.

    We are significantly different and with different goals. Our experiences are not analogous.

    However, I do understand what you were attempting to say.

  • Travis

    Susan,
    Found this article on the Huffington Post. I thought you might find the statistics interesting (if you haven’t seen them already…).

    “A recent MissTravel survey found that 40 percent of women in their 20s had engaged in a one-night sexual encounter during a vacation — 10 percent having had five or more sexual partners over the course of one week. And Match.com’s 6,000-person survey of American singles discovered that women are actually more likely than men to consider bad sex a relationship deal-breaker.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/25/jilly-cooper-author-claims-women-dont-want-to-have-sex-anymore_n_1624572.html?utm_hp_ref=women&ir=Women

    • @Travis

      Found this article on the Huffington Post. I thought you might find the statistics interesting (if you haven’t seen them already…).

      I did see that – in fact that article led me to ask Just1X why British women are such loose gooses.

  • Ramble

    That is such a copout.

    Susan, that was not a copout, it was a reasonable argument.

  • Höllenhund

    The old “High heels, makeup, push-up bras! It’s exactly the same thing!” Um, no it’s not. The male equivalent is a t-shirt that shows off your biceps or deliberately leaving a day or two of stubble on your face.

    External (physical) traits on average aren’t as important for women as for men when it comes to sexual attraction – that’s a given. Push-up bras and other stuff you listed are meant to mimick high fertility, which in turn is a trait of big importance to men, although only subconsciously.

    What is the equivalent to men? Well, how do men mimick the traits that women find attractive? The answer is Game, of course.

    Neither is more moral or honest than the other.

    • @Hollenhund

      Neither is more moral or honest than the other.

      Agreed, and I don’t count either as deceit.

  • Ramble

    OMG my day is already getting better! This is so fantastic, I love it. Look for this to show up at the top of a post soon.

    Susan, I did not want to say anything when it was originally posted, but that logic is straight Feministing bullshit.

    It is the old, “There are no real Nice Guys (TM), so i might as well fuck Alphas” logic.

    • It is the old, “There are no real Nice Guys (TM), so i might as well fuck Alphas” logic.

      No, it’s saying that if betas are going to be assholes, they have no advantage over Alphas after all.

  • Höllenhund

    That guy is pure beta, and not even a hot one: beer belly, smoker, lots of debts, no job, forgettable face. Yet he was very quick at putting commitment on the table…his eagerness to escalade sexually… He has had 4 girlfriends since then…satisfied with me so happy I dodged that one.

    Am I the only one who thinks thus guy’s an alpha? Alphas can have beer bellies and debts as well, you know.

  • Just1X

    “By the way, there is protocol in hookup culture. Any guy “getting multiple” is quickly branded a manwhore.”

    That’s comforting, it means that the next generation still has scope to lower the bar for what constitutes acceptable behaviour. Give it another couple of generations (max) and we’ll be praising the moral behaviour of bonobos. Jersey Shore will be used as reference material for ethical standards of the sexually repressed past.

  • Ramble

    Is she someone you would regret giving genital herpes to?

    Prosecutor to Defendant: So, John, how long have you been beating your wife?

  • Ted D

    Tasmin – “ I sometimes fear that the red pill is kinda stuck in the throat for me, so it may take a while before I develop a more balanced perspective. “

    I’ve been reading ‘sphere sites for well over a year now, and I’m still chocking on a few bits of that pill myself. I never imagined I would be dealing with such major changes at 41 years old. I’m capable, but DAMN it’s hard to change thoughts and behaviors I’ve been living for so long. Don’t get hung up on how long it is taking you, just keep making progress.

    On “spinning plates” – I’ve never dated more than one woman at a time. I don’t think it was lack of opportunities. (although once I started dating a girl, I stopped looking for others so I can’t honestly say) But, as I’ve stated many times before, I’m not a very social person, and frankly I HATE dating. I don’t have the energy it would take to spin plates, and I wouldn’t be able to give any of the “plates” enough of my focus to determine how I felt about them. In short, I don’t have the time, patience, or energy to deal with more than one woman at a time, which consequently also helps to keep my eyes from straying too far. I may see a woman that really trips my trigger, but I know damn well that I wouldn’t want to start from the beginning again. I know it isn’t romantic, but the truth is if I’m satisfied with my situation, the amount of trouble/grief/guilt/stress/etc cheating would cause might send me into a nervous breakdown.

    I guess now that I think on it, I created my own lack of options by being so antisocial. *shrug* So far I’ve not been without female comfort most of my adult life, so I’m OK with that. I know that if I found myself single again tomorrow, I’d have lots of options I would be less than thrilled to act on.

  • Just1X

    @Michael

    “I feel for you. The women who insisted I was marriage material never opened their legs for me and would insist on remembering me that some other dude who was a douchebag got it for free, lol.”

    I’m glad you said that as it saved me the bother. It was my immediate thought when I read the original comment. There are a couple of variations (over here):
    if I didn’t have a boyfriend already (who I clearly prefer to you despite being an utter douche)
    if there were two of me (the other me would love to go out with your beta arse)

    it doesn’t matter if you’re male or female, if you’re not wanted, it sucks. And prettying the lack of ultimate attraction up with lies may make one side feel like a better person, but if the other can read the subtext…oops.

    Women define the SMP, Men the MMP. There is no equality in either.

  • Ian

    @Susan

    The problem is in the conflating romantic and sexual. For the record, I have no problem with this scenario:

    Guy has FWB or other sexual activity he is not invested in.
    Guy meets girl he would like to get to know better romantically.
    Guy takes girl on dates, no sex.
    Guy realizes he likes girl and wants to pursue it further.
    Guy ends FWB and proceeds with girl.

    I consider the above scenario close to ideal, with a valued FWB. I’ll differ in considering a good FWB is more valuable than a fledgling relationship candidate. I have no problem waiting months for the new relationship to grow roots before leaving the FWB and sleeping with the new girlfriend, but, being realistic, there’s probably going to be some overlap.

    Practically, male sexual escalation helps prod women to emotional escalation. There’s the female orgasm factor, the N-investment, and that “hard to get” ends once you’re gotten. I’m sure women can escalate emotionally without sex, but I’d wonder what the probabilities would be. (Aside, it helps explain how women get burned in a casual SMP.)

  • Ted D

    Travis at 370 – Wow. That was depressing… It comes across as “older married woman don’t want to have sex, but they enjoyed it immensely when they were in their 20’s and hooking up on vacation.”

    At least I know I’m getting used to all this wonderful news now. Back when I first found the ‘sphere, this kind of thing would have upset my stomach for a bit. Now? I’m really just kinda numb.

    I can say this, I will never allow myself to stay in a relationship that does not have a healthy dose of sexual intimacy. I’ve made that clear from the get go in my current relationship. I’ve pretty much determined that this is a top 5 requirement for me at this point. I’ve gone without, and it clearly showed that for me sex is the glue that holds my intimate relationships together. Without it I start viewing my SO as a roommate, with the added resentment of sexual frustration to deal with.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    Just curious, is it a lie by omission if a girl doesn’t announce her count to a potential bf before he commits to her? After all, that’s information that will help him make an informed decision… Using your standard, I would think she would have to explicitly state that info before commitment (“Before you commit, you know I’ve had sex with 12 guys before you, and 8 of them were casual”), otherwise she’s unethical.

    You might disagree with me on this, but I think most people would rather dip into the grey area of ethics if it gives them a substantially better chance of success than to be a martyr for the cause or an ethical loser. Not saying that’s a good thing, but that’s human nature, IMO.

    This is often the excuse used for men who wish to justify manipulating women into dread, jealousy, or even sex by pretending interest in a relationship. The old “High heels, makeup, push-up bras! It’s exactly the same thing!”

    Just wanted to clear this up… I’ve used that example on here a lot, but definitely not in that context and have definitely not advocated for lying or deception. I’ve used that example to counter the arguments that game is evil manipulation. The argument is, “If game is manipulation, then so are makeup, pushup bras, etc. since both aid the primary driver of attraction in the opposite sex.” Of course I don’t believe either are manipulation, it’s just meant to illustrate how ridiculous the original argument is.

    • @Jimmy

      Just curious, is it a lie by omission if a girl doesn’t announce her count to a potential bf before he commits to her?

      I’ve been researching this topic most of today, and put up a new post, but I’ll answer this question here. *If* the guy has indicated curiosity in any way at any point in time, or the girl suspects he cares or she finds herself avoiding the subject hoping not to reveal that information, then yes, it is a lie by omission.

      This is what happened to Jesus Mahoney. He never asked his fiance her number during four years of dating. But when they met up with old college friends of hers before the wedding, she was anxious to change the subject away from her college exploits. He realized then she’d been hiding her number because she knew his was low and she suspected he’d balk. Of course, he did, and he ended the engagement.

  • Höllenhund

    It is the old, “There are no real Nice Guys (TM), so i might as well fuck Alphas” logic.

    Yeah. Some people in the Manosphere started to notice that average betas basically serve as “whipping boys” for the “crimes” of alphas and omegas.

    Listen carefully to women who regularly complain about men, any you’ll find their resentment, anger, disgust and contempt is always directed at the top 10% of men and the bottom 10% of men. The source of female discontent is the same: lack of male investment. Neither alphas nor omegas invest in women, because neither have any incentives to do so – the alphas can get what they want from women without that, and the omegas can’t get anything from women either way.

    Women notice alphas because they are attractive. They also notice omegas because they are revolting and are also the only group of men that are always open about their views on women, calling them bitches etc. After all, they have nothing to lose by not “playing nice”.

    The middle 80% – the betas who invest in women, avoid insulting them, the commitment-minded honest men who don’t escalate sexually – are invisible to women.

    So what happens is that women are outraged by the 20% of men they actually notice, assume all men are like that and then demand that something be done about it. Hence the “man up!” campaign, claims that “good guys are just bad guys without options”, demands for more and more draconian laws curbing men’s freedom etc.

  • Just1X

    @Ted
    “At least I know I’m getting used to all this wonderful news now. Back when I first found the ‘sphere, this kind of thing would have upset my stomach for a bit. Now? I’m really just kinda numb. ”

    I did it differently. I divorced which delivered the numbness, whenever I learnt something from the sphere a little lightbulb would go off in my head – “aaah that explains it!” and the numbness receded a little.

  • Infantry

    @ Ian

    I consider the above scenario close to ideal, with a valued FWB. I’ll differ in considering a good FWB is more valuable than a fledgling relationship candidate. I have no problem waiting months for the new relationship to grow roots before leaving the FWB and sleeping with the new girlfriend, but, being realistic, there’s probably going to be some overlap.

    There’s significant numbers of ancillary accounts from PUAs that reveal many women use this system themselves during their search for a LTR.

    Its probably rationalised and I would never expect women to admit this strategy as it violates the cardinal rule of sexual discretion, but it makes sense to me.

    • There’s significant numbers of ancillary accounts from PUAs that reveal many women use this system themselves during their search for a LTR.

      I don’t doubt it, and the standards apply equally to both sexes.

  • Just1X

    @Ted

    congrats, another point of agreement

    “Without it I start viewing my SO as a roommate, with the added resentment of sexual frustration to deal with.”

    Don’t need that in my life. Quid pro quo, with a distinct limit on the investment of emotions. A relationship with a woman should be like custard on spotted dick, nice to have but not essential.

    (p.s. http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-make-spotted-dick is SFW)

  • Ted D

    Just1X – ” I divorced which delivered the numbness, whenever I learnt something from the sphere a little lightbulb would go off in my head – “aaah that explains it!” and the numbness receded a little.”

    To be honest, I think the “sickness” I felt so often early on was a result of the dread I felt knowing what I may have to become if I wanted to be successful with women. In addition, I am my own worst enemy. I tend to read stuff like that and bring it into a personal context, which really sends my thoughts flying. I sometimes have to literally fight the urge to mentally imagine whatever slight I’ve just absorbed with my SO in the scenario, and it triggers all kinds of anger/depression/dread/jealousy. To be frank, this is precisely why I have such an issue with a woman’s past. Once I learn of it, I will literally spend weeks mentally picturing and cataloging it all. And I found out, that it is WAY worse if I meet one of those former partners. Not former spouses mind you, just casual sex partners. For whatever reason, so far I am completely OK with meeting and knowing former LTR partners. I guess on some level I’m not intimidated by them because I KNOW I’m a better partner than they were. But, since I avoided casual sex my entire life, I don’t have the knowledge to feel confident in comparison to a FWB or ONS type situation. I can’t understand it, so I fear it.

  • Cooper

    I’m not a fan of this “spinning plates” concepts.

    Finding someone is hard enough, now I gotta learn how get these saucers twirling on top of these 5ft poles – ugh – just to have a “take it or leave it” attractive attitude.

    MGTOW reason #342

  • Sassy6519

    Regarding the “spinning plates” concept, I’ll chime in.

    I’ll admit that I have dated several men at one time. When I say that, I mean that I have been on dates with more than one man in a reasonably short amount of time. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with that, for either men or women.

    I do have a problem with, however, the idea of dating one person while sleeping with others. That just seems kind of iffy to me.

    If people want to go on dates with different individuals, that seems perfectly fine. Throwing sex into the mix clouds the water.

  • Mireille

    @Rambling,

    You really deserve your handle in here. Don’t get mad because your fellow male comparses are ruining the field for you. I have to read a bunch of BS from a lot of guys here, especially that Abbott guy, about how women are just plain evil. Everybody likes to lament the failures of the other sex. However I don’t believe there aren’t quality men around, I see plenty of them everyday; beta or alphas, they get caught up in the game of running after women, regardless of the quality and are just prone to a higher count. That was my point. I know men I would consider have all the nice alpha with low game, and beta douchebags with high numbers who are smart at finding an angle, I call it the “lion and hyena syndrome”.
    Not all betas are that great and not all alphas are bad.

    @Jimmy,

    How is a woman telling you her count the same thing as you being honest about the number of people you’re SIMULTANEOUSLY shagging? That you both admit to one another your numbers is one (inappropriate) thing. But sleeping with several women at the same time, risking to pass on to them STDs, and then taking your time to decide which one you’re going to choose is plain questionable, even if that’s what is going on today. You’re adding to her N count.
    People who spin plates belong in circuses. Like Susan said, if someone is sexually escalating with multiple women, then women will not feel bad accepting dinners and flowers from whoever gives them. Where does that leave us.

    Wow, that thread depressed me to the enth degree with all that double standard and lack of perspective.

    • I have to read a bunch of BS from a lot of guys here, especially that Abbott guy, about how women are just plain evil.

      People who spin plates belong in circuses.

      That Mireille is really a pistol.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – FWIW I agree with you on this. If dating is simply going out with people, then I don’t see an issue with having multiple people in your dating pool. If you are having sex with any one of them, then it is entirely a different matter to me.

  • Ramble

    @Mille-feuille

    You really deserve your handle in here. Don’t get mad because your fellow male comparses are ruining the field for you.

    Just excellent.

  • Ted D

    Mireille – “That you both admit to one another your numbers is one (inappropriate) thing. ”

    Can you clarify this? Are you saying it is inappropriate to discuss the number of former sexual partners, or something else?

    I’m a huge fan of discussing N, relatively early on in the relationship, but after exclusivity is on the table. I am not ashamed to admit I use N as one of the many deciding factors when it comes to choosing a mate.

  • Michael

    ”Women define the SMP, Men the MMP. There is no equality in either.”

    The irony is that by the time men are in a position to offer a secure marriage(the financial security marriage-oriented women are seeking for) women’s SMV has already dropped considerably.

    For example. Yesterday I was hanging out near one of my classrooms. This older woman, probably in her 40’s approaches me to ask where the women’s bathroom is. I indicate that it’s right in front of her, she enters it, locks the bathroom’s door, I her the stall’s lock closing up too.

    I mean, if I was a pervert, wouldn’t I be far more likely to be pervy for the women who are in their sexual prime – women I’m surrounded by every – instead of sexually desiring a woman who is so close to menopause?

    Other situation. This morning I went to my local coffee shop to get an icecream. I’m there, waiting to be serviced and this mid 30’s woman who was nothing special to look at(and was confused for a grandma by an elderly woman who still had her wits about, LOL) was ”scared” of me, honestly acting like I was sexually interested in her.

    I didn’t even see her there, not until she began with the dramatic roleplay!

    I don’t understand how the sex that spends so much of their lifetime with low self-esteem and adds artificiality to their looks(high heels, push-up bras, Brazilian waxing etc) can assume that a 20 year old man would rather look at them than at the 20 year old average chick that fill up my city.

    Women do control the Sexual Market, but their reigns as genetic queens is very short. From age 15 to 30 at most, is what they can pull off in terms of men losing control of their sexual desires to proceed to sexually pursue them. We can’t forget that the man’s age plays a pivotal role in how women’s future is going to play out.

    I have friends in their 30’s who are healthy and aren’t addicted to porn but they don’t pay much attention to the very hot chicks. They’ll look, admire, but they won’t chase after women, put up with women, or pay for women’s stuff in hope of getting some in return like they did when they were 14-25.

    • Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?

  • Infantry

    @ Cooper

    Finding someone is hard enough, now I gotta learn how get these saucers twirling on top of these 5ft poles – ugh – just to have a “take it or leave it” attractive attitude.

    It takes some getting used to, especially if you aren’t an extrovert that enjoys sustaining multiple shallower relationships. The benefits are:
    1 – The take it or leave it attitude; also called abundance mentality. Girls will naturally pick up that you are a man with options. This makes you more attractive and it also allows you to be pickier. Its a win for you and a win for attractive girls who are sick of dating needy men.
    2 – You can screen more women for LTR potential rather than through serial monogamy.

    There’s also other benefits depending on if you want to go down the harem road and avoid committed relationships, but that’s better discussed on PUA sites.

  • As for the heroines, I often find myself wondering – what does he see in her? The romance hero, whatever his faults, at least has qualities that appeal to women. The heroine’s qualities are not, however, designed to appeal to men but rather qualities that feminist writers want to see in women. The heroine is generally described as “strong” (above all else), “smart,” “feisty”and “independent,” and the hero is supposed to love her for those attributes. He is not supposed to care about her appearance (that is considered “shallow,” although the hero is almost always gorgeous) or about the number of sexual partners she has had (that is “judgmental”). The psychological qualities that really appeal to men – empathy, agreeableness, emotional stability – are de-emphasized or rejected. In real life, of course, men rarely fall in love with a woman’s resume.

    Actually this is a function of feminism invading romance, if you read classical romance (from the 80’s and down and pink romance and latin telenovelas) you will find that most of the leading ladies are virginal, very pretty and nice. But many modern women label the classic ones Mary Sue’s or Manic Pixie Girls as a way to derogate the men’s tastes and added their own “I made mistakes to become the empowered wonderful woman I am now and the perfect man will know it …”fantasy. The bitchy, fat, short, slutty woman that gets with the handsome devoted millionaire doesn’t sell that well anyway, if you take a look at the HUGE best sellers they are more in line with the “ideal woman for men” than the other way around, YMMV.

  • Michael

    ”by the 20% of men they actually notice, assume all men are like that and then demand that something be done about it. ”

    Not so much as assuming that all men are like that, but more feeling(and feeling is the prime directive in women) that those who have male genitals but aren’t part of the top 20% of the male population do not qualify as men, they qualify as clay, a mold they can shape to whatever they need at the time.

    The heterosexual beta male is the sexual immateriality of the Homosexual male; it serves it’s purpose as a beast of burden and receives nothing more than a ”thank you,” very much like the homosexual men who hang out with straight women.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    I’m going to address two things in this comment….your response to my response to the question you posed, and this concept of “lying by omission”.

    Let me take the “lying by omission” first. Really, the expression is nonsensical. Lying implies false words being spoken, not the absence of providing information. I think Jimmy’s point about a woman not revealing her partner count was an excellent point that forced you to think more deeply about it rather then thinking viscerally about what you think a woman is entitled or not entitled to know. The issue isn’t lying or deception, but what is a person’s ethical obligation in terms of revealing information to another person. I think there are some black and white situations like if my basement structure is rotting I am ethically obligated to tell a potential buyer before selling the house, or if someone has AIDs and knows it they are ethically obligated to tell a potential partner about having the disease. Other things are more grey. Did you know that investment advisors and brokers are NOT held to the same standard of revealing information. A broker does not have to reveal he may have some financial incentive to sell a particular investment to a client IF the investment is deemed suitable. I could go on and on an on an on and on rattling off example after example of various levels of revealing information.

    So the crux of the issue becomes one of what to reveal and not reveal in the current SMP as it stands. And it isn’t a copout to suggest that. Ethics change depending on the environment, and sort of what the overarching rules of the game are. I would argue although I won’t fully develop the argument in this comment that the complete unleashing of young female sexuality free of parental oversight, societal shaming, norms and restrictions radically altered the landscape and with it completely changed what the ethics of male obligations are.

    The norm of this SMP is EXCLUSIVITY does NOT exist until formally established. Full stop. Anyone operating under a different premise has had their head in the ground that last 20 years. You can no longer assume that if I am dating you I am only dating you and vice versa. Introducing the issue of whether sex is or isn’t taking place is a false issue, and simply reflects the differing priorities of men and women with men valuing sexual access much more highly (which is why as I think Ian pointed out a guy is going to value an existing FWB more highly than a potential good relationship that may NOT develop).

    Regarding your questions. First, good job on leading the witness 🙂 I stand by my differentiation of the situation. To your question about emotionally escalating with other guys, would it have bothered me? Probably, yeah. Would it have led to a different future outcome? I don’t know.

    I think the particulars are unimportant. To me the crux of the issue, is the VERY REAL DIFFERENCE in the nature of male investment versus female investment. After all this time, and my many attempts, I still think you don’t really grok this. I would point you to some of Lokland’s comments, and to one comment VD made about some of the mental issues when he committed and basically took all other women off the table permanently. When a man commits to a woman (presumably a quality good one) he most certainly gets something. But he loses something as well. I suspect I will never be able to get you to understand what I am saying by that. Where I am going with this? The point is I don’t want to, and I suspect most guys do not want to commit to any woman who has played a game of making him compete for her, either her emotional attention, sexual attention, whatever. If I had to compete to win her even really from Day 1 with other guys instead of her being really into me than I am going to have reservations about choosing her as the one that I forsake all others for the rest of my life. This gets to the issue of emotional escalation, and frankly I don’t know how a woman could sincerely emotionally escalate with multiple guys simultaneously unless there was something wrong with her emotionally. On the flipside, the situation isn’t parallel with men because I don’t think the issue is one of immediate, exclusive investment but the acid test comes more down the road in how willing the guy is to cut off./break off with all other women for good. I’m really not sure if I am articulating this perfectly but I suspect guys like Jimmy and Ian know exactly the gestalt of what I am saying.

    At least to me, it seems like you want to enforce some standard of “fairness” that really is only fair from the female perspective and female priorities such as a committed monogamous relationship being 1000x more valuable than sexual access. Clearly, sexual access is important to men. Its why prostitution is the world’s oldest profession, and you really have little to no male prostitution except for homosexuals. Your framework of what is “ethical” is guided by the idea that a woman has to get a committed, monogamous relationship on her terms, conditions, and timeline with little to no consideration that a guy is going to value regular, ongoing sexual access to the extent possible. I’m not saying you are wrong, but at least be aware your ethical framework is at least in part guided by your objectives and what you see as the optimal good outcome.

    • @Mike C

      Lying implies false words being spoken, not the absence of providing information.

      The body of work is against you on that one. See my new post.

      I would argue although I won’t fully develop the argument in this comment that the complete unleashing of young female sexuality free of parental oversight, societal shaming, norms and restrictions radically altered the landscape and with it completely changed what the ethics of male obligations are.

      That’s a utilitarian argument – morality is flexible and fluid. I reject it. Others may have a different opinion, of course.

      At least to me, it seems like you want to enforce some standard of “fairness” that really is only fair from the female perspective and female priorities such as a committed monogamous relationship being 1000x more valuable than sexual access. Clearly, sexual access is important to men.

      Not at all. I have no problem whatsoever with men stating outright that they’d like to have sex and full disclosure, they have other sexual partners as well. Clearly, you believe a woman’s failing to ask this question implies her actual desire to win the intrasexual competition, so it seems to me that informing everyone that the contest is “on” will result in even fiercer competition and raise your value considerably. It’s preselection to the max, isn’t it?

      If you’re having sex with one woman, and dating a new woman, and you make zero attempt to conceal anything about your whereabouts, company or activities when not with her, then you’re in the clear. If you’re worried about her finding out anything – anything at all – you’re lying by omission.

  • Ramble

    if you read classical romance (from the 80’s and down and pink romance and latin telenovelas) you will find that most of the leading ladies are virginal, very pretty and nice.

    Do you think that those authors were virginal or that they simply preferred that kind of contrast (virginal, innocent girl versus a dominant, successful male)?

  • 2 – You can screen more women for LTR potential rather than through serial monogamy.

    One of the issues I have with this strategy is that I don’t think is that effective if you are dating 5 sluts you will naturally will pick the “best” of them to commit. But it will still be the lesser of two evils. Isn’t it better to identify objectively what is the best person for you, screen out and discard fast anyone that doesn’t fit in your standards? I think that is more effective IMO.
    Of course I really can’t find the strategy completely unsound if women are finding men without options unattractive and they are not having a second date then complaining about the men having options actually exercising them makes no sense. If you don’t like to date men that “spin plates” giving a chance to a supplicating guy to get over it, is a better strategy. I do think men eventually get more confident if they know you are not going anywhere I think hubby was a lot more secure by seeing that I was not losing interest and wanting to get him to know him, it took a while but since he had the other qualities that I find attractive I was not going to let him go, people are always nervous when they do things the first times, confidence is born out of expertise and success,at least that was for me.
    But it seems that most modern women can’t stand being in the presence of a supplicating guy or cannot see past the supplication to see the potential. I should make a post about that: Supplication shouldn’t be a deal breaker…I’m sure I will get hate mail over that though :p

    • One of the issues I have with this strategy is that I don’t think is that effective if you are dating 5 sluts you will naturally will pick the “best” of them to commit.

      I think it’s far more common with this strategy to be unable to find anyone to commit to, and go to blogs proclaiming that all women are sluts. 😛

  • Richard Aubrey

    At some, early, point in dating, either a man is coming off a dry period, or he’s seeing one or more other women. In the latter case, is the fact that other women find him worth their time an indication of some value? He is not needy, if he has other women in his life, right? And not being needy is a Very Good Thing, at least as opposed to seeming needy.
    Other practitioners have spoken of the implied vetting when a woman discovers other women in the new guy’s life. If they–even if she doesn’t know them–think he’s okay, then at least the worst of red-flag possibilities probably aren’t in play, which is good to know and not always obvious early on.

    Another question ref alpha/beta:
    In a sales training meeting some years ago, the instructor was talking about personality types and separated them into categories. Although the term alpha and beta weren’t used, the categories included the descriptions so widely used in relationship discussion.
    Category 1, for example, would be an alpha, 2, a beta, 3, something or other else.
    While, for sales purposes, the personality distinctions were different than for relationship purposes, the 1 and 2 categories corresponded to alpha and beta pretty closely.
    From which a number of guys asked the following; Is there such a thing as an ex-alpha, a guy who’s been an alpha in earlier times but, in order to deal with normal people, has had to ratchet it back?
    IOW, are there guys walking around looking like betas because kicking ass and taking charge and being dominant are tiresome, rude, and annoy people? In certain circumstances, that’s the thing to do. But when it’s not necessary, why bother?
    Presumably, when necessary, the alpha side comes out but in day-to-day life, that’s rarely necessary.
    The possibility of encountering a hidden alpha, presuming he’s a beta, in sales is one thing.
    Is the hidden alpha any kind of frequent in relationship issues? He’s not likely to orbit uselessly, but he’s also not likely to go out of his way to impress anybody, either. Unless, of course, SHTF which he would rather it not.

  • Ted D

    Infantry – “The take it or leave it attitude; also called abundance mentality. ”

    But you don’t have to spin plates to have this. All it takes is for a man to realize that the woman in front of him right now isn’t the last one on earth, and if she were to leave tomorrow, he could replace her in time. Surely spinning plates is an easy way to keep Onitis away, but it CAN be done without that added step. I won’t say its easy, but I think men would be better served by learning it without the plates. That way, if/when they find themselves in a LTR, they can still have that abundance mentality while remaining faithful to his commitment.

    Of course this doesn’t at all discuss how you can easily feel so and at the same time love and care for someone, which to me is really the hard part. IMHO it would be easy to be aloof if I had several woman at the ready. But after being with one woman for a decade I know being nonchalant about losing her is much more difficult. And I think this is one of the most crucial things to learn in LTR “game”, that even though you have shared history, long years of love and commitment, and a life together, you can still replace her if you had to. It breaks my romantic heart to say it, but I think it really is key.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    How are these the same thing? The man, once he feels intense and focused desire from a woman he wants, won’t settle for anything less. Makes sense. The female, once she experiences intense and focused commitment from a man she wants, won’t settle for anything less. That’s the corollary.

    I think these are the same thing. If a woman experiences intense desire and attraction to an alpha male, even if it’s an experience she didn’t necessarily want or need, I think it’s hard for her to go back to a less dominant, less socially adept, less tingle inducing male. Now, you and I are on the same page regarding a ONS or so with a supposed alpha; this isn’t the ‘5 minutes of alpha’ that I’m talking about. But if a girl dates an alpha, has a prolonged fling with an alpha, or even has a past relationship with one, I don’t think a different kind of guy will do.

    I’ll say that the entirety of my experience regarding this is with females age 18-25, but I’ve noticed this situation way too many times for it to be a coincidence.

    • @Jason

      But if a girl dates an alpha, has a prolonged fling with an alpha, or even has a past relationship with one, I don’t think a different kind of guy will do.

      Well, that’s a self-selected group of women. Only a small handful of women have prolonged flings with alphas, and they’re clearly stating a preference for alpha with no commitment than anyone else with commitment. As I’ve said all along, I don’t think those tastes change over time. Alpha chasers stay alpha chasers. I suspect it’s true with relationships as well, though the relationships I’ve observed with alphas are generally of short duration and/or glorified booty calls, built-in dates for functions, etc. rather than an emotionally intimate and in love relationship.

  • Mireille

    @Michael,

    Wake up and remove yourself from that equation; you have no idea if those women have suffered sexual assault or abuse before. Not everything revolves around cougars trying to jump you. Or are you that hot? Let’s get real lol

  • Just1X

    @Mireille

    A woman’s true N would be a clue to the man about his risk of receiving an STD from her.

    It’s about truth and honesty from both sides. Both sides want to avoid STDs. Men don’t want to invest in sluts. Women say they want to avoid cads.

    “That you both admit to one another your numbers is one (inappropriate) thing. ”

    If you believe in truth, let’s make it truth from both sides about everything – let’s not be having double standards (a claimed pet hate of feminists) where a woman’s high N is sacred, private knowledge, but a man’s caddishness is required to be made public.

    I don’t really see the difference between 3 plates right now and 3 plates seperately in the last 3 weeks.

    • I don’t really see the difference between 3 plates right now and 3 plates seperately in the last 3 weeks.

      Interesting. As a woman, I see a huge difference. For starters, STD transmission is much higher with concurrent than sequential partners, regardless of N, due to the duration of the relationships, in general (from WebMD).

      To me, the male’s desire to have concurrent partners seems to preclude any meaning to the sex whatsoever other than busting a nut. I would not want to be part of that parade. At least in the case of sequential partners, one can entertain the possibility that human beings are not being used as warm holes.

      I get it about sexual variety, but Jeez Louise, I’m picturing a gluttonous bender of sexual excess that is repellent. For the record, I find it repellent from women as well.

  • Do you think that those authors were virginal or that they simply preferred that kind of contrast (virginal, innocent girl versus a dominant, successful male)?

    I think is a mix, both of the authors having little experience themselves or if they had experience valuing virginity or idealizing the man they lost their virginity to and playing around with the concept of their love story being different. I also think that those were written where women actually paid attention to what men seeked on a woman to commit, nowadays is the other way around “men should commit to me because I want it, not because I earn it” so to speak.
    Lets not forget the market a lot of teenager women used to read this novels and they were virgins at the time if you have a slut in the leading role they won’t be reading it or able to get inside the story as easily, only sluts like to read about sluts, IME.
    Adding to that pink romance is not explicit ,they usually have “innuendo” for sex, you cannot fill pages and pages of innuendo (I think my mother once told me that she was afraid of kissing a man because in a romance novel she used to read they had a scene where the girl kissed her boyfriend and then later on she had a dizzy spell because she was pregnant and she though kissing lead to pregnancy! Times have changed mate) with different men and don’t get your readers tired, is more than enough with just one, thank you very much.

  • Jason773

    Of course, the end logical result of this stance is you pretty much have to rule out any guy probably north of 8, maybe 7 as a relationship option. VERY FEW guys with SMVs of 8 or above are going to voluntarily only pursue one option at a time prior to the exclusive relationship talk.

    This is an important point, with the VERY FEW men being the ones who are mostly unaware of their true value, for whatever reason. High value men learn quickly that spinning plates is the optimal gameplan in this SMP.

  • Ted D

    Mireille – Wake up and remove yourself from that equation; you have no idea if those women have suffered sexual assault or abuse before. Not everything revolves around cougars trying to jump you. Or are you that hot? Let’s get real lol”

    What the hell does previous sexual assault have to do with this? So, it’s OK for a woman to see all men as potential rapists because she was raped by a single man once? I’m a judgmental bastard and I make no apologies for it. However, even if I am standing next to someone that makes my skin crawl (for whatever reason) I still do my best to NOT show outwardly that I am at all affected by them. Partly because it isn’t their fault I’m “creeped out” by them, but more importantly because showing them that their presence changes my behavior actually gives them power over me. That woman looking at Michael oddly was actually signalling to him that she was intimidated by his presence. To most normal guys, I suspect that would weird them out, and frankly such a woman should try to get a grip on her behavior IMO.

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    Times they are a-changin’

    I watched the film ‘John Carter’ a few months ago (yeah, well, it was a visual spectacular) and then read the first 1 and a bit of the original books (much poorer writing, really pretty bad). Dejah Thoris, Princess of Mars, in the film is a full on kick-arse female warrior princess hacking down creatures multiple times her size (yougogrrrill), in the book stunningly gorgeous SAHP (Stay At Home Princess). Now I don’t see that that sort of film ever being a chick flick, but they still had to ram home the 90lb woman being equal to every 220lb man (except Earth man John Carter Southern Gennleman). If even 100 year old crap SciFi isn’t sacred, what is?

  • Anacaona, I don’t like supplicating men either. I think that’s a no-go for most women.

    The solution is really just to ask. I don’t understand people’s aversion to talking about things clearly. My husband and I talked about everything including partner count, who else we were seeing, future plans, and the various compatibility fundamentals that Susan has mentioned in this very post. All before we shared a kiss! It’s so much easier to be honest. Don’t have to think or watch out or try very hard not to mess up…

  • Mike C

    Of course I really can’t find the strategy completely unsound if women are finding men without options unattractive and they are not having a second date then complaining about the men having options actually exercising them makes no sense. If you don’t like to date men that “spin plates” giving a chance to a supplicating guy to get over it, is a better strategy. I do think men eventually get more confident if they know you are not going anywhere I think hubby was a lot more secure by seeing that I was not losing interest and wanting to get him to know him, it took a while but since he had the other qualities that I find attractive I was not going to let him go, people are always nervous when they do things the first times, confidence is born out of expertise and success,at least that was for me.

    But it seems that most modern women can’t stand being in the presence of a supplicating guy or cannot see past the supplication to see the potential.

    Anacoana, as usual, you drop the wisdom and sense.

    • If you don’t like to date men that “spin plates” giving a chance to a supplicating guy to get over it, is a better strategy.

      Agree 100%, assuming the woman is fully aware the man is spinning plates.

  • Jason773

    Mike,

    From the time I first started dating, I had 3 separate multi-month periods where I was seeing multiple girls concurrently (not having sex with all of them). You know what. I NEVER had a single girl ask me who else I was seeing or what else I was doing. NOT A SINGLE ONE. I’m talking dates, meeting up at various places, going to their house or apartment, or having them come over to mine. Not once was I asked “who else are you seeing”, “are you seeing anyone else”.

    Interesting. I’ve been asked twice I think, but it’s definitely been rare. I’m not sure of the reason behind this, but it might be that they assume I am or they don’t want to hear the answer. On the flip side, most guys don’t actually date multiple females, so they may just be making this assumption as well.

    I know these girls are looking for exclusivity in most cases, but they don’t verbalize it or push for it. I think this is a symptom of the SMP right now.

    • they don’t want to hear the answer.

      Bingo. There’s a second reason too – guys are notorious for trotting out the “Whoa! Stage 5 Clinger!” Of course, any guy who would say that is not relationship material, but I think women worry that they will telegraph a pathetic neediness by asking anything at all too early. Sad but true.

  • If even 100 year old crap SciFi isn’t sacred, what is?

    Yeah I noticed to that too when I watched John Carter…of Mars. Most of retelling of classics (Snow white and the huntsman, Alice in Wonderland, Enchanted…) have the woman kicking other men’s derriere. I haven’t watched Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter (on the fence about watching it) but I think even Mary (his future wife) is kicking ass, killing vampires.
    I don’t mind the action girl trope if done logically (Elizabeth Swan started pretty incompetent but then learned to fight on the POTC movies, Snowy was stumbling around getting protective to fight the Queen only on SWAT and even Bella had to become a vampire to get her action girl moment) but is the “I just took a sword for the first time in my life and I learned self defense and I can take men twice my size” that is really unrealistic. I took karate and once one of the guys I was practicing with accidentally punched me, no to mention my brothers and I use to mock fight once in a while before puberty turned them into giants. Trust me I know that if I try to fight a man running or shooting him are my only chances to be “empowered” so I usually just roll my eyes and try no to think about it much, YMMV.

  • Sassy6519

    Of course, the end logical result of this stance is you pretty much have to rule out any guy probably north of 8, maybe 7 as a relationship option. VERY FEW guys with SMVs of 8 or above are going to voluntarily only pursue one option at a time prior to the exclusive relationship talk.

    I’ve been tripped up on this point in real life a few times.

    Nothing is worse than meeting a guy, going on a few dates with him, then discovering that he is sleeping with someone else. That bums me out in the worst way.

    I’ve thrown a few guys like that back into the dating pool. I’ve liked them, but I’ve never been able to get over the ick factor associated with them. The more that I date, the more that I’ve come to realize that I am as sexually territorial as some men are. I don’t care at all if a guy is going on dates with other women. If he is sleeping with someone else, however, I just can’t get past it.

    • @Sassy

      I am as sexually territorial as some men are. I don’t care at all if a guy is going on dates with other women. If he is sleeping with someone else, however, I just can’t get past it.

      Women are territorial too. After all, our female ancestors evolved new attraction triggers to facilitate pair-bonding and monogamy. Women are absolutely not wired to share men. We are monogamous. (Serial perhaps, but monogamous nonetheless.) Sharing a man —–> your babies don’t survive. It’s a visceral repugnance and fear.

  • Mireille

    I personally don’t believe in pre selection; I have liked and had plenty on crushes on some guys people called weirdoes and so on. Last time I was subject of this might have been in middle school but it was to get the upper hand on other girls, really don’t care about this 15 years later.

    @Ted,

    To answer your question, I do not need to know my partner’s count in order to assess their character. There are so many other tells, most guys get dismissed before you get to that part, even then some cards trump the others. I require a clean bill of health, an healthy attitude toward relationships and common values regarding our life together. I believe men like to reduce women to their vagina mileage ( gotta trademark that one) because they lack intuition and subtle observation skills. While I’m sympathetic considering their helplessness, I do not agree that they let that inability blind them to the point that they focus solely on who/what some woman did sometime in the past. It turns into psychoses where ANYBODY that was “better” than you on some level is a threat when the proof is in the pudding, they’re gone and you’re here now. So what if I dated George Clooney before? GC doesn’t want to marry or have children; you think he dumped me because he is the “alpha”. In reality, I probably dumped him, he didn’t have the same goals as I; you think I downgraded to you but in my mind, I upgraded to a better partner, someone who wants the same things, with whom I can build a future and enjoy the full life I want. I think some guys need to themselves the service of letting their envy/hate relationship with the guys that came before, the alphas and all that. To many people you don’t know are deciding for you.

  • Infantry

    @ Ana

    One of the issues I have with this strategy is that I don’t think is that effective if you are dating 5 sluts you will naturally will pick the “best” of them to commit. But it will still be the lesser of two evils. Isn’t it better to identify objectively what is the best person for you, screen out and discard fast anyone that doesn’t fit in your standards? I think that is more effective IMO.

    I turn over girls very quickly if they don’t meet my standards for a relationship and my screening is quite efficient. I know what I want, so its not the best of a bad bunch for me.

    What I am worried about is not being able to focus enough energy into any particular girl. I don’t want an abundance mentality to the point where girls become interchangable because it won’t allow me to evaluate them as people I might want to establish a deep connection with. For this reason I aim for 2 girls at any one time, max of 3.

    I also don’t want to give off a player vibe which can naturally happen if you have too many girls on the go at once. I want to be confident and non-needy, but I don’t want to scare off girls for whom players are anathema.

    If you don’t like to date men that “spin plates” giving a chance to a supplicating guy to get over it, is a better strategy.

    Yes, in a perfect world this would happen more often. I assume by supplicating you mean a guy without any immediate options. Girls in general won’t think this far ahead unless they’re red pill trained. They will just go for ‘most attractive’, unless she’s wired as a beta chaser.

    But it seems that most modern women can’t stand being in the presence of a supplicating guy or cannot see past the supplication to see the potential.

    Heh, you pretty much came to the same conclusion. Early in my red pill days I used to wish girls would give me a chance to get over my approach anxiety and nervousness so they could see who I really was. It never happened. I only ever got attention when I displayed confidence.

    @Ted

    I won’t say its easy, but I think men would be better served by learning it without the plates.

    No. I never really learned abundance mentality until I started spinning plates several years ago. Then I really internalised that there will always be another woman and neediness disappeared.

    Now, once its been internalised Yes, to a degree the abundance mentality will stay with you until the day you die. That said, having no other options except the one girl you are seeing will make you more clingy regardless of having the abundance mentality in the back of your mind. I know this from prior experience.

    Of course once a relationship has been established and bonding begins, this ceases to be an issue.

    And I think this is one of the most crucial things to learn in LTR “game”, that even though you have shared history, long years of love and commitment, and a life together, you can still replace her if you had to.

    YES. This is exactly right and is the mainstay of male defence against betaisation. Knowing that you don’t have to put up with the situation and can leave AND will likely be able to find future happiness with another woman is what allows men to keep the respect of their women. Susan herself has said that her husband turned their marriage around by putting his foot down and saying a sexless marriage is not one he wants to be in.

    I don’t mean the ability to walk should be exercised willy nilly. Its not there to get the girl to do anything you want via dread. What it is there for is the attitude modification it brings to a man in reinforcing his self respect.

    In the worst case, when all else has failed, he can tell his partner he will leave her if things do not change and she WILL believe him.

  • Tasmin

    @Jimmy
    “You might disagree with me on this, but I think most people would rather dip into the grey area of ethics if it gives them a substantially better chance of success than to be a martyr for the cause or an ethical loser.”

    Caveat: I’m assuming “success” means forming a committed relationship….While this is obviously a slippery slope and part of the logic that can lead men into darker things, I have to agree with the theme. After awakening at 35 in the current SMP, I have been confronted with this feeling time and again. And after three years of observing which behaviors are rewarded and which are merely “custard on a spotted dick” (Just1X), I continually feel foolish for living too far in the custard and not enough in the dick.

    I have seen these grey areas play out repeatedly; the don’t ask don’t tell relative to all kinds of questions: numbers, relationship with ex, emotionally available, dating other people, goals of dating, goals of life, etc. and have been repeated shocked by how little thought people put into these things relative to the direct and potential impact on the relationship prospects with someone new. It is all about getting theirs, having fun, and preserving and/or enhancing their power. E.g. While I have yet to see a situation in which someone has a FWB or out-of-town F-buddy and manages to form a healthy new relationship while these things are in motion, I have dated (gone out on dates) with several women who have either lost significant time/opportunity (and thus SMV) because of these other spinning plates, are unavailable but either don’t know it, won’t admit to it (but willingly go out on dates), or won’t cut off those other ties. And all of them had no idea that I (or other men) may find these things to be somewhere between a red flag and a non-starter.

    Honestly, it never occurred to me to date multiple women at the same time, I may not even be capable, but even so, my question is this: if it is soooooo hard to find good men/women, then how are all of these people lining dates up like some kind of carnival kissing booth? I mean, is there no pre-screening at all? Just straight into dating, sexual escalation, and then reject/hold/orbit/repeat? And if the “good” part can only be found via dating and comparing to other dates-in-motion, then aren’t we asking an awful lot of our ability to discern these critical things and consciously invest in someone (or not) in such a self-imposed dynamic environment?

    I know, a lot of this is red pill 101, but in light of the disclosure and plate-spinning discussion, it seems like the problem as it relates to forming a healthy committed relationship isn’t finding “good” people to date, but rather how people are choosing to “date” those people.

    The old school courting process has been bastardized into the instant-gratification, obsessive optionality, self-preserving/serving, hedging mentality of the modern SMP. Having options is great, cultivating oneself in order to increase opportunities is great, but really, at some point in the modern SMP the cultivation and exercising of those options became the priority and the relationship/commitment became the gravy and what we have is a perennial date-fuck-date-fuck cycle where the positive reinforcement comes from the feeling of multiple options and/or easy sex (for men) and emotional outsourcing and attention hoarding (for women) instead of from the mutually beneficial formation of a relationship. It is no wonder that the concept of relationship formation has been rendered to some paradoxical fifth dimension between hopeful utopia and fleeting nostalgia.

    • @Tasmin

      the don’t ask don’t tell relative to all kinds of questions: numbers, relationship with ex, emotionally available, dating other people, goals of dating, goals of life, etc. and have been repeated shocked by how little thought people put into these things relative to the direct and potential impact on the relationship prospects with someone new. It is all about getting theirs, having fun, and preserving and/or enhancing their power

      Exactly, it’s agentic behavior normally associated with a wholly narcissistic approach to life.

      it seems like the problem as it relates to forming a healthy committed relationship isn’t finding “good” people to date, but rather how people are choosing to “date” those people…what we have is a perennial date-fuck-date-fuck cycle where the positive reinforcement comes from the feeling of multiple options and/or easy sex (for men) and emotional outsourcing and attention hoarding (for women) instead of from the mutually beneficial formation of a relationship.

      +1

      You know, I’m often accused of promoting relationships because they’re good for women, but I honestly believe they are good for men, and for society. The deterioration of relationships in our society has had massive negative effects on all of our institutions, including the economy!

      A sexual free for all is terrible for everyone.

  • Anacaona, I don’t like supplicating men either. I think that’s a no-go for most women.

    I’m not asking to like them, just to not kick then to the curb if you really hate the idea of dating a guy that might be seeing or having sex with other people. But then I suspect that given the choice they will hate dating the supplicating man more than the man with other women on plates.
    I rather give a chance to the duplicating guy than date a secure man I don’t know where his dick is going to be between our encounters, but that is just me.

  • Just1X

    @MikeC

    “most guys do not want to commit to any woman who has played a game of making him compete for her, either her emotional attention, sexual attention, whatever. If I had to compete to win her even really from Day 1 with other guys instead of her being really into me than I am going to have reservations about choosing her as the one that I forsake all others for the rest of my life. This gets to the issue of emotional escalation, and frankly I don’t know how a woman could sincerely emotionally escalate with multiple guys simultaneously unless there was something wrong with her emotionally. ”

    I think that this is the basis of a lot of female porn – Twilight FFS. Multiple super alpha men competing for the heart of a pretty mediocre hotty.

    Personally? I agree with you completely. Michael was saying about friends of his refusing to chase – all cool stuff. Chasing is DLV. Demanding to be competed over is Demonstrating Lower LTR value, because it is emo-game playing…men hate that shit. And the men that women want shouldn’t be feeding her I-am-worth-it hamster.

  • Ramble

    Lets not forget the market a lot of teenager women used to read this novels and they were virgins at the time if you have a slut in the leading role they won’t be reading it or able to get inside the story as easily, only sluts like to read about sluts, IME.

    Interesting point.

  • Michael

    ”Wake up and remove yourself from that equation; you have no idea if those women have suffered sexual assault or abuse before. Not everything revolves around cougars trying to jump you. Or are you that hot? Let’s get real lol”

    Cougar is a woman who is attractive to young men. Or at least bearable enough for a young man to have sex with her. I wouldn’t touch them with my enemy’s dick. They weren’t ugly nor fat. It’s just that I am a young man. It’s not natural for a young man to be attracted to women who aren’t ”out of this world.” Would I bone Angelina Jolie? Yes. Most women older than me by 10 years? Never.

    Hm, I don’t consider myself hot because the majority of the women my age, younger, and slightly older don’t consider me hot. Most women above the age of 25 would bang me, yes, but that’s because I’m in shape, I’m easy in the eyes, and most of the older guys are chasing and bedding women near my age, so women who are in their late 20’s and upwards are kinda looking for some, but the Alpha males are too busy banging 18 year olds.

  • Infantry

    @ Sassy

    Nothing is worse than meeting a guy, going on a few dates with him, then discovering that he is sleeping with someone else. That bums me out in the worst way.

    Yeah it sucks. Even if they have that vibe about them that they’re willing to consider you for a committed relationship, the fact they’re knocking off someone else is very difficult to get past.

    So we’re stuck with people that can hide their other sexual partner(s) from you (harder the more experience you have in the SMP) or the rare attractive person that’s between partners.

    At least us guys can try fishing in bookstores for introverted feminine girls. You’re going to find it a lot more difficult to find alphas between partners.

  • Jason773

    Sassy,

    I’ve been tripped up on this point in real life a few times.

    Nothing is worse than meeting a guy, going on a few dates with him, then discovering that he is sleeping with someone else. That bums me out in the worst way.

    I think this should be your default assumption, tbh. You are obviously going for upper echelon guys in your niche and sexual access is just too easy for guys like this.

    • @Jason

      I think this should be your default assumption, tbh. You are obviously going for upper echelon guys in your niche and sexual access is just too easy for guys like this.

      I don’t know – I’ve seen a lot of alphas operating in the Greek college scene and they’re generally either interested in staying single, in which case it’s all no-strings hookups, or they’re open to a gf, in which case they respect the sequential protocol. The high value girl who is his natural counterpart is not going to entertain being part of a harem, which girls are vigorously shamed for by other girls. She is going to want the guy to get in line and date her, and in my experience, even the alpha does that, at least for a time.

      We already know that only a minority of athletes and frat guys are even hitting 10 partners in college (though higher than the rest of the students). The idea that more than a handful of young guys have multiple partners going is not realistic.

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    “Supplication shouldn’t be a deal breaker…I’m sure I will get hate mail over that though :p”

    My prediction
    women will applaud the sentiment and keep right on treating supplicating men like beta crap.
    blue pill men will kiss your booties, as you are reinforcing their “just be a nice guy and she will value your kindness” (suckers)
    red pill men…mmmmm not a positive reaction(! colour you surprised). Not because you should be wrong, but because you are wrong in reality.

    How well do those predictions tie in with yours? lol

  • Mike C

    Interesting. I’ve been asked twice I think, but it’s definitely been rare.

    Funny. I was talking to a guy last night, and he echoed the same sort of thing.

    I’m not sure of the reason behind this, but it might be that they assume I am or they don’t want to hear the answer. On the flip side, most guys don’t actually date multiple females, so they may just be making this assumption as well.

    I’m speculating, but I am pretty sure many women who start seeing/dating a guy who looks a certain way and acts a certain way….they probably know on some level the odds are probably pretty high he has someone else he could be talking to, seeing, or even having sex with. Despite Susan’s insistence (and I have no problem with her advice to avoid men who spin plates) that many?/most? women will walk from this situation immediately, my experience simply doesn’t jibe with that. Again, everyone has to pursue the strategy that is optimal for them. If you were to form a 2X2 matrix (oversimplified) of high and low SMV men, and high and low SMV women, the optimal strategies are different because of the somewhat differing objectives and opportunity sets. The issue I have is with taking the high SMV male strategy and basically saying it is unethical and just a bunch of bad men with character issues because it doesn’t directly serve the strategies on the female side.

    At any time, a woman has the option of going down to a lower SMV man who is going to be much more eager to lock it down on day 1, and much more unlikely to be involved with anyone else at that time

  • Mireille

    @Ted,

    The thing is you have no idea or no need to know her internal workings. She’s creeped out by you, that other guy standing around the corner, and the other one with his hands in his pockets, whistling in the wind. Why take it Personnally? Some people are creeped out, got nothing to do with you per se, it’s just their mental state. Think about as someone who has schizophrenia; they in constant state of alarm.

    @Hope,

    I like your point of view; however when I told guys that’s how I see things some said that it is too soon to talk about this. Mind you, they’d like to date and sleep with you a bunch of times before having those conversations. Don’t have the time for this.

  • Yes, in a perfect world this would happen more often. I assume by supplicating you mean a guy without any immediate options. Girls in general won’t think this far ahead unless they’re red pill trained. They will just go for ‘most attractive’, unless she’s wired as a beta chaser.

    I think the idea of supplicating I have is a guy that constantly says thinks like “I’m so lucky for you to be with me” and I mean constantly like six times or so. But I get the feeling that women mean more like you definition though wich is not so bad IMO. Like I said I wasn’t born confident I learned throw small victories and achieving personal goals I don’t expect anyone to be confident out of breathing, that is arrogance IMO and I really don’t like arrogance.

    Heh, you pretty much came to the same conclusion. Early in my red pill days I used to wish girls would give me a chance to get over my approach anxiety and nervousness so they could see who I really was. It never happened. I only ever got attention when I displayed confidence.

    Sad to hear that but then incentive drives behaviour so its not surprising.

    I think that this is the basis of a lot of female porn – Twilight FFS. Multiple super alpha men competing for the heart of a pretty mediocre hotty.

    The love triangle was not about competition, FYI. No one I know actually enjoyed it there more hating on Jacob for not learning to understand that he was out of line, hating on Bella for not knowing what to do and hating on Edward for not setting his vampire feet and putting a stop to it. The women that read it as “let’s you and him fight” are just forgetting key plot points for the sake of personal “DRAMA!” , YMMV.

    • to Supplicate: implore, beseech, beg, entreat, pray, plead

      I know Anacaona didn’t mean this, but let’s be clear about what supplication is. Asking women to find this sexually attractive is like asking men to sprout a boner for a hairy upper lip.

  • Infantry

    @ Tasmin

    I know, a lot of this is red pill 101, but in light of the disclosure and plate-spinning discussion, it seems like the problem as it relates to forming a healthy committed relationship isn’t finding “good” people to date, but rather how people are choosing to “date” those people.

    Its very rare to come across an attractive girl that through experience you’re pretty sure isn’t seeing anyone else. If I found someone like this and we were compatible… well I’d stop caring about my other plates pretty damned quickly.

    I didn’t make the rules of the game, but I need to play by them to best of my ability. At my current point in life I’d prefer the 1950’s style of dating even though I have the skills to live a successful player lifestyle.

  • Too many choices have been shown to make people suffer from choice paralysis. The modern dating scene is all about an abundance of choices, which lead to shallow, fleeting connections, not conducive to lifelong bonding. Online dating sites especially promote this sort of “line up” of opposite sex interviewees.

    The circumstances of my husband and I meeting was a small group of less than 30 people. Over the course of a month we had intermittent contact on a regular basis. The fact that it grew “organically” and slowly over time added greatly to the romance. He wasn’t dating, so he wasn’t fatigued from talking to a whole bunch of girls at the same time.

    He didn’t have the “abundance mentality,” because I was one of two girls in that group. But he did have the “take it or leave it” attitude, because he was fine being single. He also has high standards and is very picky about people he lets into his life, and about things in general (he likes to say he is a man of discerning taste :p). That particular attitude was very attractive to me, as it was the opposite of supplicating and needy, but without the stench of promiscuity / sexual debauchery.

    That is also about self-respect. I think his attitude was a version of “going his own way,” because as I said before, he had learned about game (David DeAngelo, evo psych, etc.) back in college, but he would rather not play in the muddy waters just to get laid.

  • Interesting point.

    You should watch some Spanish soap operas the ideal feminist leading lady is 9 times out of the 10 the villains that has sex “like a man”, and goes for what she wants no matter what it needs to be done cuckolding, lying and she ends up dead, in jail or in a madhouse, not empowered with the leading man. The contrast of the heroine that is 9 times of of 10 a virgin, can’t sleep with any other man, and wouldn’t do anything unethical no matter what the gains might be. There has been a few changes like they being hard working professional, but poor and if she is too old to sell the virgin thing they do a cope out like she becomes a widow early on the story or is already a widow, but they still have many of the classical marks, is an exercise on cultural contrast. Like watching Bride and Prejudice the Bollywood version of Pride and Prejudice they changed many things to fit the culture and still works, IMO.

  • Höllenhund

    Of course I really can’t find the strategy completely unsound if women are finding men without options unattractive and they are not having a second date then complaining about the men having options actually exercising them makes no sense.

    I think what we’re talking about is yet another example of women wanting the proverbial fried ice. The average woman wants a man who a) is wanted by many other women b) refuses to sleep around.

  • Jason773

    Mike C,

    Based on my experience as well, women WILL NOT run from that kind of situation. In fact, I’ve seen it excite an even greater eagerness to ‘win’. While I haven’t been asked if I was seeing others very often, I have divulged this info voluntarily in a few circumstances and it’s almost as if I’ve been rewarded for a period. Now, I will say, once the info was divulged the women didn’t stay in the ‘harem’ forever, but they stuck around long enough to see if they had a legit shot.

    Because I’ve experienced things like this I fully understand the disgust for this SMP by so many guys, becuase I’m sure all the girls I’m talking about had plenty of orbiters.

    • Based on my experience as well, women WILL NOT run from that kind of situation. In fact, I’ve seen it excite an even greater eagerness to ‘win’. While I haven’t been asked if I was seeing others very often, I have divulged this info voluntarily in a few circumstances and it’s almost as if I’ve been rewarded for a period.

      Full disclosure is win win!

  • INTJ

    @Susan

    I feel like you’re leaving us men without any options other than MGTOW. Things were fine back in the day when the SMP/MMP was well regulated and commitment was enforced. Sure, there was a mating marketplace which allowed assortative mating (none of the communist everyone is equal bs). But we didn’t have the capitalist selfish marketplace we have now. These days people can lie about commitment with impunity. In fact, only a small minority of men are cads, but from what I’ve seen the majority of women have a very active hamster which allows them to lie to themselves about actually wanting to commit to a man. Then when they meet a hot alpha they’ll dump their boyfriend and trade up.

    It feels like I have three options.

    The first is the beta option, which I view as the fairy tale option. I can be a white knight and hope I’ll end up with the entitled princess. But chances are miniscule that I’ll actually make it that far. I’ll be viewed as unattractive and will likely end up in multiple relationships in which I’ve been dumped after being strung along for emotional validation.

    The second is the player option. I can accept that the SMP is adversarial and try to maximize my position in it. This means pushing for sex early and withholding commitment until someone demonstrates LTR potential. This works because if a non-slutty girl is willing to have sex with me early, then she must really be into me. It puts me in control of the relationship unlike the beta option which puts the girl in control of the relationship. The dangers of this are STDs and accusations of false rape. Additionally, I could hurt a girl who is genuine LTR material but turns out to be incompatible with me. The worst part is that casual sex is unappealing to me.

    The third option is MGTOW. This allows me to avoid the risks associated with the above options but means I’ll probably end up lonely, cynical, and angry.

    Can you suggest another option? I’m honestly looking for a better option, but can’t find any.

    • @INTJ

      Do you really see no daylight between chump and player? Can’t you just go 80% of the way to player and then quit when you get a gf? That’s what most guys who learn Game do, or so I’ve been told.

  • Cooper

    I like what Tasmin said @ #417 – very true.
    —-

    The more I think about ‘spinning plates’, and it’s “take it or leave it attitude” or this “hey, I can find happiness with someone else, easily” mentality, I’m starting to think it is a shade a dread. But it’s also seems vital to estabishing a attraction. So, do women require a small amount of dread to respect that their man has options?

    I still do not complete understand the apeal of ‘options.’

    / someone, quick, I need a glass of water! The pill is lodged, again.

    • The more I think about ‘spinning plates’, and it’s “take it or leave it attitude” or this “hey, I can find happiness with someone else, easily” mentality, I’m starting to think it is a shade a dread.

      That’s exactly what it is. In fact, I haven’t thought of this, but it’s probably effective at getting the girl you really like to put out early, whether she’s ready or not.

      Re options, or preselection, the idea is that all women find the same men attractive, so the guy who has a bunch of women competing for him may be assumed to be one of those lucky 20%. Personally, I have observed that a guy’s even having an ex, or one other woman vying for his attention is plenty for most women.

      The most hypergamous women demand the most preselection, so you’ll find them at frat parties and clamoring for alpha attention.

  • Mireille

    @ Michael,

    You crack me up young man, how old are you? Angelina is 37, probably well above those 10 years up you’re talking about.

    The truth is I have always filtered for father qualities in all the men I have dated or was interested; none made the cut, some where close. Now that I’m close to 30, I meet much more marriage minded men, who display those qualities and I enjoy spending time with them. However, the uncertainty about the future keeps them in the low pressure casual sex cycle. I can see some of them are as anxious as women. We’re all victims of these hard times.

  • Just1X

    Spotted Dick with Custard analogy

    basic life = Spotted Dick (an English Dessert – stodgy with some fruity bits – laugh it up)
    women = Custard

    The idea is that your life should be perfectly acceptable within yourself. Adding a woman to it should improve it (why do it otherwise?), but shouldn’t be required to make life worthwhile.

    Suicide after divorce is more a male phenomenum than a female one. Men shouldn’t be that committed to relationship that they kill themselves when it’s over. (The theory works for women too, I suspect, but men are clearly the true romantics over marriage).

  • Sassy6519

    @ Infantry

    At least us guys can try fishing in bookstores for introverted feminine girls. You’re going to find it a lot more difficult to find alphas between partners.

    Don’t I know it man. Don’t I know it.

    @ Jason773

    I think this should be your default assumption, tbh. You are obviously going for upper echelon guys in your niche and sexual access is just too easy for guys like this.

    Yeah, but I hate having to do that. I just have no desire to get involved with a man who is sleeping with other women, whatsoever. Like Infantry said above, my strategy so far has been to pray to the heavens that the men I’m attracted to are between relationships. That has proven to be a strategy with a very low success rate, so far. I don’t know what else to do though. I can either continue to hold out for a unicorn man to fall into my lap, or I can settle for a man that I don’t really want simply because he is available.

    Given the two options, I prefer the first one by far. I’m sure that men appreciate it too because I’m not wasting their time. I’d rather go after what I want and potentially fail than to settle for something I don’t really want. Men have feelings too, or so I’ve heard.

  • Abbot

    “I can remember once being out at lunchtime with a younger work colleague in the late 80s. She suddenly ducked into a shop doorway saying she didn’t want to see a guy who was about to walk past us. When I asked why she said “because I had sex in the shower with him in Ibiza”

    Self slut shaming is a real lesson teacher. Female lurkers take note.

    That is a comment from this

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2161003/More-40-women-30-admit-having-night-stand-holiday.html#ixzz1yGrclo7n

    .

  • Anacaona, I don’t like men who have no backbone and will allow any remotely attractive woman to walk all over them. The idea that he’s “lucky” because she is talking to him is just no good. If he doesn’t screen me with careful discernment, then how do I know he would screen other girls? What if some time down the line, we’re together, and some other hot chick shows interest in him? If the guy doesn’t have tough judgment and a strong spine, he might just succumb.

    I’ve read cheating stories, including a “nice” husband who cheated on a good wife (it wasn’t a case where she withheld sex) with a slutty type who tried to blackmail him and deliberately got knocked up, then sued for child support. Meanwhile, my husband would see right through that crap from the start and tell the girl to scram. A guy who is easily flattered and not choosy can be a bigger cheating risk than a guy with real integrity and self-respect who is not easily impressed.

  • Ramble

    You should watch some Spanish soap operas the ideal feminist leading lady is 9 times out of the 10 the villains that has sex “like a man”, and goes for what she wants no matter what it needs to be done cuckolding, lying and she ends up dead, in jail or in a madhouse, not empowered with the leading man.

    You might want to be on the lookout for Korean dramas. I don’t speak Korean, but from the little I have seen, they take things like Honor quite seriously (weirdos).

    Also, the female characters, depending on the writer (obviously), will present, in their aggregate, an interesting combination of demure femininity and brassy “I am not going to take your shit”.

  • Michael

    ”At least us guys can try fishing in bookstores for introverted feminine girls. You’re going to find it a lot more difficult to find alphas between partners.”

    Their timidity is just a cloak. This morning I went to my local bookstore to search for Edgar Rice Burroughs, I see that this young woman had a copy of the book I was specifically looking for(A Princess of Mars) and I couldn’t find another copy so I asked her if I could borrow it, as she was kinda short on cash(was on the phone) and wasn’t sure which book to bring home.

    I asked her how long she has been a fan of burroughs just to get her to give me the book and she wouldn’t keep her mouth shut henceforth. Seriously, from a simple request to 2 hours of conversation, ranging from literature to Ancient History, spacial exploration and the state of the current youth(I had the impression she was against the hook-up culture).

    She was bangable worthy. Thin and cute. Had crooked teeth, yellowed out, weak hair, and didn’t sport much of a body, though. Just goes to show that if you be an Alpha depending on the woman and what she’s into.

    • That’s three come-ons for Michael today by lunchtime! I’m on the edge of my seat – what did the afternoon bring?????

  • Ted D

    Mireelle – ” So what if I dated George Clooney before? GC doesn’t want to marry or have children; you think he dumped me because he is the “alpha”. In reality, I probably dumped him, he didn’t have the same goals as I; you think I downgraded to you but in my mind, I upgraded to a better partner, someone who wants the same things, with whom I can build a future and enjoy the full life I want. ”

    LOL. First of all, most lower sex rank woman are NOT the ones to terminate the relationship. In reality, you may TELL yourself you dumped GC, but he probably just stopped interacting with you once he got tired of you and to save face you “broke up” with him. and even if your story is true, you are still settling because what you REALLY want is GC to marry you and make babies. I don’t want to be your second choice thank you very much. I’ll spend the rest of my life wondering if GC showed up with a ring if I would feel the breeze as you ran out the door into his arms.

    To me it makes no sense to try and compete with something you can’t beat. Period. I wouldn’t take my six cylinder Chrysler to the track and expect to beat pro cars, and I have NO chance of snagging and keeping a woman that is looking for GC level alpha. Sure, she may try to convince herself that I’m a better deal since GC won’t marry her, but then I am most assuredly the second choice at best. Right from the gate my job of keeping her interested and happy is doubly hard because I’m not GC. As it is I find most of this red pill knowledge utterly tiring and energy consuming. The last thing I want is to add to that challenge by punching above my league.

    It really isn’t about my fears of being a lesser man. Like I said, I know what I’m good at, and what I can’t change. I can’t be any more handsome than I am short of plastic surgery. (well I’m still losing weight so technically that isn’t correct. But at some point I will have no more gains left to tap…) If a woman wants that level of handsome, I’d be a fool to even try with her EVEN if she “decided” I was a better deal. She will be much more likely to cheat and/or simply walk out if/when she meets a better looking guy that is willing to get with her.

    Now I’ve been told time and again that for women, looks isn’t everything. I actually believe that. But, doesn’t it make sense for me to find a woman that actually thinks I’m decently attractive AND finds herself attracted to my character as well? It is one less thing I have to “work” to achieve with her, since in my natural state she is already interested. Yes, I get that after you left GC, you might meet me and just love my charming wit and sense of humor, and that may actually get you falling for me. BUT, what if a GC look alike shows up AND he has a great sense of humor AND he is willing to commit? I’m screwed.

    I’m really starting to feel like it is a man’s best interests to settle down with a woman that has a slightly lower sex rank. Honestly it just cuts down on a lot of drama right off the bat, since both people know where they stand from the start. Perhaps in that case, the woman might be a bit more concerned about losing what she has. Because to me that is what this all boils down to: the best way to keep a woman around is to be the absolute best man she can get if she went back on the market today. In this example, a woman that once pulled a GC is going to always believe she can do it again. And that may very well drive her to bail the second she thinks she has an opportunity.

    I VERY much dislike thinking this way, but its either that or I go back to sticking my head in the sand.

  • Michael

    ”that if you be ”

    That you can be an Alpha male.*

    She didn’t have a ring on her finger but she might have just taken the ring and gone to the bookstore trolling for dick, lol.

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    My Milage is not going anywhere near the book, movies or twilight-moms.

    It sounds like I chose the wrong dreck for my example, I bow to your greater knowledge ‘Oh Wise One’! Have you a better example that I should have used? I feels like such a true meme, but I can’t think of an example

    Cheers

  • Michael

    ”elf slut shaming is a real lesson teacher. Female lurkers take note.

    That is a comment from this”

    But it doesn’t count as sex because it was just a random liaison.. Strange how things work for the promiscuous women. One woman I went out on a date with told a friend of mine I was her boyfriend, when I the date itself was a bunch of guys and girls hanging out together, but she wanted to be seen in a good light by my friend(he was marriage material).

  • Jackie

    @Jimmy Hendrix
    ” Our society is what it is. Unless you’d like to be a hermit, the best I or anyone else can do is adapt and play by the rules put in front of us.”

    Why not choose better? Why settle for the lowest common denominator? Besides, aren’t the “rules put in front of us” ever changing? It seems like we can’t seem to agree on them here!

    I think that people see (or more often, read or hear about) people sleeping around, behaving like crap, and extrapolate the bad apples to *everyone*. And many folks shrug their shoulders and say, Well, everyone else is…
    and act like sheep. (Or rather, lambs to the slaughter, unfortunately!)

    I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, but my experience of deciding on high standards and holding yourselves to them is worth it. Even if the world appears to be crumbling around you, you have your integrity and from that you draw inner strength and like-minded people.

    Jimmy, you say you believe you may not get married and have kids due to not finding a woman up to your standards. Is it possible that there are women up to your standards around you *right now* who you are repelling through “LCD” (lowest common denominator) beliefs and acts?

    You’ve heard the famous Gandhi quote, right: Be the change you wish to see in the world.

  • Cooper

    “Supplication shouldn’t be a deal breaker…I’m sure I will get hate mail over that though :p”
    “I rather give a chance to the suplicating guy than date a secure man I don’t know where his dick is going to be between our encounters, but that is just me.”

    I’ll aplaud this, even if no one else would.

  • You might want to be on the lookout for Korean dramas. I don’t speak Korean, but from the little I have seen, they take things like Honor quite seriously (weirdos).

    Didn’t I mentioned that I quit Korean Dramas in my third “every good girl/guy dies” viewing? I really prefer my leading people to live happily ever after even if is not realistic than getting cancer and dying after having “one day” of happiness.

    @Hope
    Being supplicating IMO is not a personality trait but fruit of nerves and/or lack of experience. The man with the most backbone can get nervous in front of a woman he really wants to make it work, is not a function of any woman is a function of how many times had this guy experienced real success with women. Nothing else and nothing more. You are assuming this “nice” betas were really nice but it could as well be like Herb’s ex that he accepted in her lowest SMV and was just waiting for improvement to jump ship. They might had settled themselves for a lower value woman and as soon as someone hotter appeared he went in and got busted. I know plenty of Alpha types that won’t say no to sex regardless just because they are not used to saying no to sex. Supplication and lack of integrity are not mutually inclusive, YMMV.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble
    “You might want to be on the lookout for Korean dramas. I don’t speak Korean, but from the little I have seen, they take things like Honor quite seriously (weirdos).

    Also, the female characters, depending on the writer (obviously), will present, in their aggregate, an interesting combination of demure femininity and brassy “I am not going to take your shit”.”
    =======
    Ramble, you are awesome! Korean dramas, music (not just K-Pop) and literature is so great.

    (This is totally tangential, but have you read _Nothing to Envy_ about N. Korea? Or seen the VICE magazine videos Inside N. Korea. I am beyond fascinated by their culture.)

    • Ramble,

      Would you be willing to wait until marriage for the perfect woman? I think I know her.

  • Mike C

    Its very rare to come across an attractive girl that through experience you’re pretty sure isn’t seeing anyone else. If I found someone like this and we were compatible… well I’d stop caring about my other plates pretty damned quickly.

    Infantry,

    Yup, this was pretty much experience. I met my fiancee at the gym after she had lost close to 100 pounds. Now as the weight loss progressed I know she started to attract more and more male attention and had done more dating in the months before meeting me. To tell you the truth, I really have no idea if she was going on other dates during our first few dates. But it became clear very quickly, she was very interested as she did the emotional escalation quickly, and we were very compatible personality types. It didn’t take very long for me to drop the other plates for good.

    • @Mike C

      But it became clear very quickly, she was very interested as she did the emotional escalation quickly, and we were very compatible personality types. It didn’t take very long for me to drop the other plates for good.

      I’m glad you mentioned this. I’ve been wondering why it takes so much time for people to become exclusive. If you’re open to a relationship, and you meet someone great and compatible, why not put others on hold while exploring and nurturing that? You’ve got your “abundance mentality” in place – why not pursue something worthwhile with focus? Becoming exclusive means nothing more than, “I like you, and I don’t like anyone else.” You don’t even have to share that if you think it will be a DLV – just keep your dick dry while figuring out if this is the real deal. Why is this concept unreasonable? If you’re so interested in variety, why even consider the LTR?

  • Tasmin

    @Infantry
    “Its very rare to come across an attractive girl that through experience you’re pretty sure isn’t seeing anyone else. If I found someone like this and we were compatible… well I’d stop caring about my other plates pretty damned quickly.”

    I get it. But there are a couple of challenges that I see: there is a lot of JV plate spinning going on and the female version can be quite elastic. Part of my point is that there is a disincentive to drop those other plates from the get-go (unilateral reduction of options), so the natural bar of attraction is artificially raised based on the proxy effect of those other men/women in play. And because this is the state of the current SMP, there are many people who are not as targeted, disciplined, confident, or honest as you may be in your approach and thus the act of dropping those plates is anything but smooth. I may have an exaggerated view of the multiple-dating scenarios, but I guess I also prefer to date one of those attractive women who I am pretty sure are not seeing anyone else at a time. Mind you, this strategy is currently under review…

    As for the women I have encountered, I have been surprised by how late in the game they even ask those questions of me. Being the newbie that I am, I just assumed that they would expect that I was only dating them. Turns out most not only assume that I am dating others (even sexually), but also that I have at least at some point been a player of some kind. (Not true in either case) And never have either of these issues presented an impediment their attraction to me. Subsequently, I have had to really think about what this means for me in my approach and how I view the female version of the irons-in-the-fire approach. In my limited experience, I tend to find women exercising multiple optionality to be less attractive, too risky. I have yet to experience one of those woman who can and will drop those plates completely. Put them in the cupboard, sure, but drop them?

    You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.

    • Re Infantry:

      You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.

      Agreed, you’re a great addition! You and Tasmin conversing are awesome too.

  • Michael

    ”You crack me up young man, how old are you? Angelina is 37, probably well above those 10 years up you’re talking about.”

    20 years old. Angelina Jolie is an exception because she’s been in most of my non-porn masturbation sessions and she’s so damn exotic, exactly what I love in women; tall, full lips, thick dark hair, big boobs, and a nice butt.

  • Just1X

    @INTJ

    a mix of 2 and 3. As it’s Your Own Way you can get game and casually search for a relationship. Just make sure that your spotted dick is up to snuff and the woman is nice hot custard – You enjoy you life and she just adds to that. I don’t understand why men say that they’re going their own way and let someone else define the path.

  • Infantry

    @ Michael

    Just goes to show that if you be an Alpha depending on the woman and what she’s into.

    Heh, nice work. I suspect Sassy has a more classical definition of Alpha though.

    I should probably get back into the bookstores. Some of the girls in there are just my type.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (#357)

    Aww, thanks for the kind words, Susan!

    I was reflecting, We are all here on the same journey, for the same reason. And I bet everyone posting has been the guy who got dumped or the girl who couldn’t get a date, at one point in their lives. Even the players have problems! 😉 It’s easy to forget that, sometimes.

    My two favorite XKCD cartoons:
    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png
    http://xkcd.com/386/
    🙂

  • Ramble

    Didn’t I mentioned that I quit Korean Dramas in my third “every good girl/guy dies” viewing?

    Oh, then you know more about this stuff then I do. I have only seen a few, and they were in “the background”.

  • She didn’t have a ring on her finger but she might have just taken the ring and gone to the bookstore trolling for dick, lol.

    Wow if this is your underline thinking everytime you see a woman without the ring no wonder you think of us as merely sluts for the use and nothing more. Good luck with that.

    My Milage is not going anywhere near the book, movies or twilight-moms.

    I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?

    It sounds like I chose the wrong dreck for my example, I bow to your greater knowledge ‘Oh Wise One’! Have you a better example that I should have used? I feels like such a true meme, but I can’t think of an example

    You are probably mocking me but I don’t care. I particularly hate love triangles, loving two people at the same time? Yeah right. So I barely pick those ones but if my friends are to be believed Anita Blake’s series is about that since she comes back and forth from banging both males without knowing wich ones loves her the most, which is the reason she can’t decide is not about what she feels but what men (well werewolf and vampire) shows the most dedication.
    The trope is as old as feudalism though, what it was Helen of Troy,Brunhild or Atalanta myths about? Men competing for this women, in Troy it was against each other while Atalanta was the one needing a man that could outmatch her so not sure if we could blame this on romance only once upon a time men did competed for women and it was part of life so it might be a mix of ancient vestiges and romantization, YMMV.

    I’ll aplaud this, even if no one else would.

    The history of my life…thanks for the sentiment though. 🙂

  • Tasmin

    @Just1X
    “Suicide after divorce is more a male phenomenum than a female one. Men shouldn’t be that committed to relationship that they kill themselves when it’s over. (The theory works for women too, I suspect, but men are clearly the true romantics over marriage).”

    I suspect that most of those suicides are due to the economic strain and/or child custody issues that result from divorce as opposed to the romantic loss. Not that men don’t feel those romantic things, but I assure you that when I was asked to vacate my position as a partner, the devastation would have been tenfold had I not had the option of crafting my post-divorce life free of economic burdens tied to the ex and/or the financial-emotional strain of even ‘shared/joint’ custody. While I still lost most of my net worth and my lifestyle, other relationships, etc. I wasn’t over a barrel or locked into a certain job, city, and/or other twisted arrangements that basically meant I would remain financially married to the situation, but without any of the benefits. The custody and alimony shit sammy that gets handed down – particularly to those men who were already lacking economic stability, let alone mobility, are what drive those men to swallow shotguns – or worse.

  • Michael

    ‘heh, nice work. I suspect Sassy has a more classical definition of Alpha though.”

    Yeah, but Sassy is in the top 20% in terms of looks, at least that’s what I’ve gathered from her posts. Her Alpha type is probably an Apex Alpha male, something like Brad Pitt looks when he was in his prime, Michael Jordan Height etc etc.

    For average to attractive women a ”mere” Alpha is enough, I think.

  • J

    I run away after 2weeks of dating because I knew his eagerness to escalade sexually and be in a relationship was just a way for him to secure a permanent sex partner, regardless of who it was (he didn’t really knew me at all).

    And THIS, gentlemen, is precisely what women mean when they write the words “nice guy” in quotes and say they don’ like “nice guys.”

  • Infantry

    @ Mike C

    To tell you the truth, I really have no idea if she was going on other dates during our first few dates. But it became clear very quickly, she was very interested as she did the emotional escalation quickly, and we were very compatible personality types.

    I’ve had similar, but without the girl emotionally escalating. This made me suspect enemy action. Either that or I didn’t float her boat, heh.

    Typical PUA theory is not to worry about other guys. If she’s compatible and you make a good connection, the other guys will disappear. I think this works for both genders (except the commitment avoiders).

    But Kudos to you man. That’s great and I hope to find something similar.

    @ Tasmin

    Part of my point is that there is a disincentive to drop those other plates from the get-go (unilateral reduction of options), so the natural bar of attraction is artificially raised based on the proxy effect of those other men/women in play.

    Yes, I agree. Like I stated previously I like to keep the plates to an average of 2 to avoid keeping that bar unrealistically high, because I believe the effects are cumulative; at least up until the ceiling of 5 which is about all any man could have time for if he sees them regularly. Every additional plate also hampers screening efforts (and potentially bonding) because your attention is split.

    I want my screening (and bonding capacity) to be at its peak because of the priority I’m placing on finding a LTR candidate.

    As for the women I have encountered, I have been surprised by how late in the game they even ask those questions of me.

    Yes, I was also surprised when girls wouldn’t ask me if I was seeing anyone else. But this goes both ways. There’s a lot of shadow boxing going on.

    My advice is to not feel guilty exploring plate spinning, but act with honesty and integrity as you understand those words. If a girl asks you a question, give her an honest answer. Just be sure to answer with an unrepentant demeanour and with solid eye contact.

    As an aside years ago I remember feeling so guilty for lining up two dates in one week when I hadn’t even so much as kissed either girl.

    You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.

    Thanks mate, appreciate that. Now its bedtime in my country, so adieu.

  • J

    To wake up and see Jackie in the crosshairs of an attack from anyone is surreal. The internet’s kindest, gentlest soul is dodging sniper fire. This unmade my day.

    I find an inability to talk civilly to either Jackie or Hope to be a huge red flag. If you can’t be civil to them , then you probably can’t be civil to anyone.

  • Abbot

    “it doesn’t count as sex because it was just a random liaison”

    According to some, rape is not sex. So then, is the new term “consensual rape?”

    Niles: “so amber, how many guys did you have sex with”

    Amber: “well five were sex, 23 were fun consensual rape while on vacation and you know, we have all been reprogrammed to accept that does not count as sex. So, yeah, five men”

  • pennies

    @Hope
    Yep, you definitely lucked out with your NF man! Smellwise and otherwise.

    @Jackie and Ted
    Yes, Jackie, the quantification attempts boggle me because one woman’s 6 is another woman’s 8. I mean, I know that if you ask 5000 people to vote on someone’s appearance, there will be a mean number to be had, but that’s clearly not how things work on an individual level. If I find someone’s personality and character appealing, their physical exterior becomes more beautiful to me and I consequently would value them more than the population at large would.

    Which brings me to Ted. I really think it’s interesting how we both extrapolated upon the George Clooney example. Here I was, in my mind, imagining a soulful, intelligent and beautiful woman — maybe a Jackie type. Maybe Clooney comes to town on a movie shoot. He meets Miss Jackie while on location at the university library. Perhaps she’s there to lead her book group with her mentees and they meet cute. The book group girls are swarming him for autographs and he’s impressed with her caring and composure. Perhaps they go on several dinner dates while he’s in town and Jackie realizes that he’s good at playing humble and courtly but that his ego is just a little too big. They don’t follow through beyond the dinner dates. Jackie has learned that she’d prefer someone whose life isn’t quite so abundant and hectic because no one can keep their ego in check while living so large.

    Meanwhile, Ted extrapolates in a different direction. He notes that Clooney and the hypothetical woman (I’ll leave Jackie out of this example) are having unparalleled alpha sex. And this is not the first time for her. According to Ted, “she has spent the last several relationships with alpha types.” So she’s not only a Clooney-dater, but a carousel hopper with an insatiable taste for alpha. Poor girl! Her only hope is that the memory erasing technology developed in the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind actually becomes available.

    In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.

    So interesting how our minds spin out hypothetical stories based on a few key words, i.e., “had a relationship with Clooney.” Rather than revealing any wisdom about the dating population at large, it seems like we’re exposing our biggest fears.

  • Jackie

    @Mike C (#398)

    “Let me take the “lying by omission” first. Really, the expression is nonsensical. Lying implies false words being spoken, not the absence of providing information. ”

    This is totally unrelated to dating, but related to LBO. I was talking to a friend who was telling me their insurance company did this. They changed the rate without mentioning it to the employees, just automatically deducted an extra hundred dollars. This purely anecdotal, obviously.

    But I have seen some shady things with backdating and postdating checks and memos, where it has hurt the most vulnerable, least powerful people: Deception via omission is what it seems like to me. What would be a better term for it? In the instances I observed it was incredibly off-putting. 🙁

  • Abbot

    “carousel hopper with an insatiable taste for alpha. Poor girl! Her only hope is that the memory erasing technology developed in the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind actually becomes available.”

    In reality, her only hope is to teach her daughter not to do the same. That is, if she can find a man willing to let her be the mother of his children.

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    “You are probably mocking me but I don’t care”

    I was ABSOLUTELY NOT mocking you, I don’t nastily mock people that I like (though I go too far at times with friends). It’s a figure of speech that I use IRL, when people see my palms down bowing down and big smile on my face, they understand that I’m not having a dig. So, my bad for not adding a smiley.

    Also, you truly do have a wealth of knowledge in this area. The closest I got was reading the Hunger Games (which I don’t really see as chick-lit or even teen-lit for that matter). Must get that disc when it comes out.

  • Ted D

    Pennies – “Rather than revealing any wisdom about the dating population at large, it seems like we’re exposing our biggest fears.”

    I think it was in this thread, but somewhere on HUS I recently posted that indeed I do “fear” comparisons to previous casual sex encounters from my mate because I have never had one myself and cannot comprehend the dynamics. So yes, I fear being compared to previous casual partners because I simply DO NOT know how I would stack up. However I’ve spent most of my life in LTRs and am fully confident in my abilities to kick ass and take names in that department. Now that I’ve found the red pill(and once I’m done choking on it) I will be an unstoppable force to be reconned with in the MMP. But I will never hold my own in the casual market. I’m not equipped to compete there, and my lack of experience would sink me like the Titanic.

  • But I have seen some shady things with backdating and postdating checks and memos, where it has hurt the most vulnerable, least powerful people: Deception via omission is what it seems like to me. What would be a better term for it? In the instances I observed it was incredibly off-putting

    I would like a feminist term (please don’t throw rocks at me) withdrawing consent. Mostly because the person keeping the information does so to avoid the other person having information that might change their mind about keeping the relationship going.

    PS
    Haven’t all of you noticed how morally relativist we are? I mean we are murky in gray areas looking for a way to win AND still feel we are good…freaking crazy, signs of the times I guess.

  • Anacaona, I haven’t watched many Korean films, but I have watched a number of anime and have read Japanese manga. The romance written by female authors always have multiple guys competing for one girl, and the romance written by male authors always have multiple girls competing for one guy. It seems to be a very common plot device. Another common one is to suddenly have another competitor show up, so instead of a love triangle it starts to look like a square.

    Jackie, I agree with you about deception by omission 100%. I would much rather lay it all out on the table upfront and compare. I think the best defense against this type of deception is tell your own story first, then ask, ask and ask. Shady and secretive can’t last in the face of a light being shined on them. Really, most of the time, people will tell you what you need to know. You do have to read between the lines and listen to your intuition.

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    “I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?”

    In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…

  • Ted D

    Reckoned lol… Stupid autocorrect.

  • Iggles

    I think the whole “spinning plates” thing is complicated when you put casual sex in the mix.

    I get dating more than 1 person at a time to avoid one-itis. It’s good strategy to not get so fixated on one person. Not to mention, if you keep your dating in the dating scene it saves you time versus leaving the game each and every time you meet someone with potential.

    It’s how I went about online dating. If things fizzled with a guy it wasn’t such a big deal when I was talking to at least 1 other dude. Remember, girls can get one-itis too. It’s not just a beta male afflication (though many guys on here speak as if they corner the market on this phenomenon!).

    I always wanted to avoid building my expectations too high and/or coming off clingy (Sometimes I did, other times I didn’t do this as well). I assumed the guys I was talking to were pursuing other girls as well because I’m a realist, haha (I’m pragmatic optimist).

    However, I was NOT hooking up/sexing up mulitple guys!

    “Dating” to me means getting to know a potential romantic partners by going out on actual dates and conversation via phone/email/text. Kissing is not a preresiquite (i.e., the idea that every date must end in a kiss). It’s about determining if the two of you are compatible for a relationship and seeing if there’s physical chemistry between you both. You don’t have to have sex to know if you want to be exclusive with someone!

    Once I found a guy I wanted to be exclusive with we had the “define the relationship” talk and went from there. I stopped talking to/looking for other guys. It turns out he had stopped logging into the site once he met me!

    It all worked out for the best. As I look back, I have no regrets about the previous guys I went out with. I didn’t compromise myself or my values (my N=2).

    @ Jimmy Hendricks:

    It’s almost impossible for a guy to cultivate the “take it or leave it ” attitude that most girls require for attraction unless he’s getting sex somewhere.

    I take issue with this!

    If a guy is getting regular sex through a FWB or ONS then he’s likely to have an issue with this. The type of guy who never goes longer than 2 weeks without sex even when he’s single is going to scoff at the idea that he should abstain from hooking up with other girls even if he’s met a really good potential relationship girl (i.e., he won’t stop boning other girls until they talk about exclusivity).

    But the thing is not all guys are like that! A dude who is getting that much sex is a player in my eyes because he is hooking up and getting casual sex from multiple women on a regular basis.

    The average guy is not out there grabbing that much strange! (Just like the average women isn’t that promiscuous either!) And, average guys are out there pursuing women for relationships all the same. To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t not pass the smell test.

    Not to mention –

    SW @ #358:

    Having sex concurrently with multiple people is a *huge* risk factor for disease.

    +1,000,000

    Also, I think it’s tacky and gross not to mention that you’re sleeping with other people when dating someone!

  • J

    Yes, when a woman states that she is “well traveled” do take it as a slut tell and if she makes you wait for sex beyond the first date then dump her for being a dishonest manipulator.

    I dunno. If 40% of women slut around when abroad, that still means 60% don’t–that’s the majority. I’m relatively well travelled and have never had sex outside of US borders. I’d be pretty offended if a man reacred to me IRL as some of you guys reacted here.

  • Mireille

    @Pennies

    You exactly made my point. You have to pick someone because their goals and yours are the same and you have similar values. I agree, GC and that woman would have never worked because GC has sworn never to marry, like EVER. Every year, we see him at the oscars with a new woman, those idiots try and when they see he won’t bulge, they quit. It has nothing to do with them. The Cloon has already made a commitment to HIMSELF that he will never put a ring on it. Men have to understand this. When I get a partner that shares my goals and values, I ALWAYS upgrade! Who cares if an idiot dumped me for something less satisfying? More opportunity to go after what I really want. The one I would say is that women have to be fast at detecting those differences in values and life goals and not get caught up in the chase for status over the other women, that’s the waste of time.
    Another thing is avoiding women who have never dated GC is just half the job, gotta make sure she never meets him (or his lookikes); that’ll keep one in fear and sleepless. If a woman grows dissatisfied very fast, has no patience or doesn’t want to make the efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal, that tells you everything you need to know about her, without making dating her an archeological expedition.

  • Iggles

    Crap! Double negative..

    *facepalm*

    I meant:
    To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test.

  • Michael

    ”That is, if she can find a man willing to let her be the mother of his children.”

    Might not be as hard as it seems. My mother used to babysit this woman who is now 33 and an engineer. She met her ex co-habitation husband when she was 18 and he was already 30 and with a family to boot. She stole the husband from his family, financially supported him, but kicked him out after he punched her in the face.

    A month after that unfortunate incident she’s already to be married to a sweet, nice beta that was pinning for her since.. she was 18 and makes more money than her; he’s already spending money on his stepdaughter by sending her to vacation in Brazil.

    So we could say this young woman spent her late teens and all of her 20’s having steamy Alpha sex and kicked her out when she couldn’t afford to have him around the house anymore and cashed in on her fading looks by fishing the beta male from her ocean of beta orbiters(and she’s obese!The orbiters are in decent shape).

  • Just1X

    @Tasmin
    yeah, my divorce was very painful and there were no kids and no great financial loss. I can only imagine how much worse it is to lose access to your kids.

  • Anacaona, I haven’t watched many Korean films, but I have watched a number of anime and have read Japanese manga. The romance written by female authors always have multiple guys competing for one girl, and the romance written by male authors always have multiple girls competing for one guy. It seems to be a very common plot device. Another common one is to suddenly have another competitor show up, so instead of a love triangle it starts to look like a square.

    Yeah I do remember those but in must shonen’s and shojo the leads are more annoyed at this than flattered and is more a tongue in cheek than real “Oh I don’t know who I love the most…” sort of game and there is no doubt they are going to end up together somehow. I think is different from the “lets him and you or lets she and her fight” described here that implies a real coldness on the object of affection just waiting for the winner to claim their prize with no concerns of other traits, at least I think so.

    In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…

    Okay.

  • Jackie

    #442
    ”elf slut shaming is a real lesson teacher. Female lurkers take note”

    I know this is a typo but hahaha! I’m sure Galadriel and Nenya agree 😉

  • Jackie

    @J (#464)
    Thank you muchly, J 🙂 being grouped in with Hope is a huge compliment!

  • Ramble

    To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test.

    It’s ironic that you put it that way since there is some research showing that women can smell when a man is getting “pre-selective” sex..

    • It’s ironic that you put it that way since there is some research showing that women can smell when a man is getting “pre-selective” sex..

      Does that occur when his face smells like a vagina?

  • pennies

    @Ted
    “So yes, I fear being compared to previous casual partners because I simply DO NOT know how I would stack up.”

    And it’s really, really cool that you’re sharing your vulnerabilities. Me, I worry (as you can see from *my* Clooney story) about good personality fit/moral compatibility/shared interests.

    But what’s interesting is that some men here assume that what they fear is actually what’s happening.

  • Ted D

    Mireille – “The one I would say is that women have to be fast at detecting those differences in values and life goals and not get caught up in the chase for status over the other women, that’s the waste of time.”

    The problem here is: most women that make a habit of being with “alpha” men ARE in it for the status to some extent. Why else would they willingly let someone treat them badly?

    “Another thing is avoiding women who have never dated GC is just half the job, gotta make sure she never meets him (or his lookikes); that’ll keep one in fear and sleepless.”

    Not exactly. I have no problem with my SO thinking GC is attractive. Hell I’m a VERY straight man and I will admit that GC is damn good looking. But, there is a BIG difference between a woman that simply thinks GC is hot, and a woman that wants a GC for her very own, and has pursued that goal and failed. Because, to be honest, I would never believe she totally gave up that search, and even if she did, it still means she “settled” for me because she couldn’t get what she really wanted. I’m looking for the women that never dated a GC because she knows before she even tries that it isn’t what she wants. Then there is NO doubt in my mind that I’m her consolation prize.

    ” If a woman grows dissatisfied very fast, has no patience or doesn’t want to make the efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal, that tells you everything you need to know about her, without making dating her an archeological expedition.”

    LOL. Sorry but IMHO it IS indeed an archaeological dig to even get the info you stated above. How am I going to know if:
    she has patience
    will make efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal
    IF
    I don’t ask her details about her past?

    This is where the issue is for me. I want to know how she acted in her previous relationships PRECISELY because I want to know what to expect if I get with her. And I really don’t care how much “change of heart” she had at some point if it isn’t backed by at least a few years of “good behavior” to prove it. Ideally a possible mate would be a woman that has had several LTRs since her teens, but no casual sex at all. Even though her past LTRs didn’t work out, they lasted long enough to get past the “new” stages which proves she can commit and work with someone long term. None of her previous partners would be asshats or cads, and most if not all of those LTRs should have ended amicably, although continued contact with those exes *might* be a red flag to me. I’d have to suss out how those relationships work to be sure.

    Each and every casual partner detracts from this ideal, and adds more complexity in my discovery phase with a new partner. Recent casual activity would get her ejected right off the bat, where as if she had casual encounters in the past but has spent her recent past in serious LTRs then I might overlook it, unless those casual encounter were with GC like men. In that case, the concern that she would “relapse” into alpha hunting would bother me too much to attempt going further.

    Call me paranoid if you want. Shame me for being insecure, but it is MY future we are talking about, and I’ve already dodged complete financial ruin once in Family Court. (Although I’m still digging out of the whole it made…) I will NOT be ashamed that I’m demanding a lot from a woman, because I’m offering a lot. In fact, at my age (almost 42) I pretty much accept that fact that no woman will meet my ideal, and many simply won’t deserve my commitment at this point. For now that’s fine because I found someone that actually isn’t too far from my ideal, but the older I get the less likely I am to find such a woman again. So, I’ve accepted the fact that this will be my last marriage, regardless of how things turn out. If for any reason I find myself single again, things will be VERY different. To be frank, my current SO was lucky, because I am now fully aware of my value, and I wont be easy to snag again.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @pennies
    “In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.”

    Excellent post.

  • Jackie

    @Just1X
    “@Ana
    “I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?”

    In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…”

    Riiiiight. 😉 That’s OK, Just1X, if you’re a secret Twilight fan, I won’t tell a soul.

    BTW, I totally agree on those Hunger Game books and movies– I am psyched! I don’t care who they are for!

  • Ramble

    This is totally tangential, but have you read _Nothing to Envy_ about N. Korea? Or seen the VICE magazine videos Inside N. Korea. I am beyond fascinated by their culture.

    No, but Frontline/Nova/PBS sent a crew there that were able to interview people with hidden cameras.

    The crew had 2 Englishmen and 1 Canadian. The locals kept on referring to each of them as being American. After this one guy was corrected, he finally said, “It doesn’t matter. You are white and you speak English, therefore, you are American.”

    The N Korean guy then rattled off some sort of ” … you blood-thirsty raping Capitalists”, with a smirk, communicating that he did not believe these things but he knew what he was supposed to say.

    It was interesting.

    The crew here once got into a heated debate over immigration. I remember seeing a study that showed each countries interest in having more immigration (i.e. 32% of Greeks want more immigration, 15% of Swedes, etc.)

    The country that came in #1 by a long shot was South Korea, for obvious reasons.

  • Ted D

    Pennies – “Me, I worry (as you can see from *my* Clooney story) about good personality fit/moral compatibility/shared interests.”

    To be honest, I’m not a fan of “people” in general, so anyone that I find myself wanting to talk to is already a rarity. I find that of those few people I tend to get along VERY well with them, so I don’t have a fear of compatibility so much. Also, I’ve said here before that I’ve never found myself wanting for a mate since I entered my first LTR at 16. Sure, there were periods of time between relationships where I was single, but looking back I can see that even when I complained I wasn’t finding anyone, I really wasn’t putting in the effort TO find someone. (basically I just wasn’t ready to try again, despite my bitching…) And at that, the longest I’ve been “single” (without a LTR mate) since the first is about 9 months. So not only do I NOT worry about compatibility, I honestly don’t see finding love as an issue. Every single time I’ve set out to find a mate, I’ve done so in relatively short order.

    The funny thing is, I’ve only been cheated on once, and it was near the end of my first LTR. (I was 19 and she was 21. We were both very young and stupid…) So I don’t have a lot of cheating in my past to be so gun shy of past casual partners. Yet I have this very deep issue with it, mostly because I really don’t understand it at all. I’ve only had sex with women I loved (as much as I understood love at the time) so I honestly worry that the allure of casual sex is strong for people that have had a lot of it. And, since I’ve never done it, I simply don’t know how well I’d rank if I had to. Or, put another way, I feel inadequate because I want my mate to “want” me just as much as she “wanted” her previous casual partners WITHOUT the added benefit I get from her loving me. I want her to be THAT attracted to me AND love me, which I get is a very tall order.

  • Ted D

    “In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing”

    To be honest, I think this scenario would require a woman that has WAY more self knowledge and introspection than the average woman on the street. If we are talking about 20-somethings, I’d be DAMN shocked if you could find 10 women that had any clue about “aligning morals” and “what to look for” in a guy. Now, if we move that up to 30-somethings that have spent a decade riding the carousel? Yeah, there are TONS of them that can and do think like this. But, I and guys like me ARE THEIR SECOND OPTION because they didn’t manage to snag an alpha in their 20’s. Again, no thanks.

    “best fit” sounds an awful lot to me like “I can’t get a hot 10 alpha to be my man, so I guess I can settle for how you look since you will commit to me.” Can you honestly say that sounds like a good deal for any man?

  • BTW, I totally agree on those Hunger Game books and movies– I am psyched! I don’t care who they are for!

    Mmm was this for me? I’m not a fan of HG.

    “It doesn’t matter. You are white and you speak English, therefore, you are American.”

    Heh we use to call people Americans regardless American’s from France, Americans from Italy or if the person insist too much on not being called American we call him their country “You Italy come here” also Nueba Yol (New York ) is everything outside the country that you need to take a plane to get to, don’t think we Dominicans are ignorant is mostly tongue in cheek.

  • Jackie

    @Pennies, Royale
    “@pennies
    “In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.”

    Excellent post.”
    ———————
    Add one more to the co-signed.

    I’ll just use my parents as an example: My mom, before she met my dad, dated men who were *far* more handsome, athletic, and in all likelihood wealthier. (At least according to my mom’s friends, who remembered these guys.) But my dad was the one she married and stuck by, 110%.

    I will go further: Even after a disfiguring medical condition that was expected to kill him, she only became MORE devoted. Because she loved him as a person, not some “ideal of perfection” or George Clooney type.

    That’s what real love is. Not all this smoke and shadows, idealization and figments of the imagination. Or comparisons to what might be or what never was.

    The guy who I rejected over speaker phone due to promiscuity may be more handsome or suave than the man I marry. But that doesn’t even matter! To me, religious beta with awesome character is *titanium strength alpha* who trumps all others possible.

  • Cooper

    @Iggles
    “To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test”

    I understand that “doesn’t pass the smell test” is aka for “your test.”

    But that’s only you. Susan has said to me, among many many others stating in this thread (see spinning plates), that a man haveing other options is a huge attractor.
    So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are. One can not rely on stumbling upon someone like you who would see things differently.

    • So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are.

      I would amend this to say project that you could if you wanted to, but you don’t because this new relationship is awesome! (Assuming it is.)

  • J

    Practically, male sexual escalation helps prod women to emotional escalation.

    Or, conversely, can completely disgust us.

    I’m sure women can escalate emotionally without sex, but I’d wonder what the probabilities would be.

    We can–if we know there is sexual interest. My DH and I intentionally avoided sex (and yes, it was mutual) for quite a while because we wanted to know if there was more than sexual attraction between us.

    (Aside, it helps explain how women get burned in a casual SMP.)

    It does, partially.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are. One can not rely on stumbling upon someone like you who would see things differently.”

    THIS. Which is exactly why I say that “game” is very much a dog and pony show for many men. Even if you aren’t a promiscuous man, you should act like one or be taken for a chump by most women.

    Of course, the flip side is the few women that don’t see you as a chump are probably great bets for a LTR, IF you can find them at all…

  • J

    What the hell does previous sexual assault have to do with this? So, it’s OK for a woman to see all men as potential rapists because she was raped by a single man once?

    Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.

  • Ted D

    J – “Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.”

    Actually I was bitten by a dog when I was 3 and spent my childhood afraid of them. When I got into my later teens, I set myself to beating that fear so that I wouldn’t have to worry about it going forward, and started volunteering at the local Humane Society. I simply didn’t want that fear to inhibit me, and now I have zero fear of any dog. Respect? Surely, but not fear.

    I can control how I react to everything and anything in my life. So, being afraid is fine, but allowing it to affect your life is a choice. At the moment I’m trying to figure out how to beat my fear of previous casual sex partners without going out and having a bunch of casual sex myself. I mean, the dog thing was easy to beat by simply immersing myself in dogs. But I have moral issues with casual sex, and besides I don’t think my SO would be too understanding of my need to “get some strange” to beat my fears. 😛

    Oh and I managed to control a massive fear of spiders in a similar manner. Although I don’t know if I’d test it again by holding a tarantula anytime soon..

  • Ted D

    To be clear, I’m not trying to trivialize sexual assault. I know of several women that suffered them, and I know that it can cause incapacitating fear. But in those cases, I think a visit to a counselor is a good idea, since the fear is going to affect quality of life. And for me that is the major factor: is the fear causing quality of life issues. If not, no worries. If so, seek help.

  • Ted D

    And in the interests of full disclosure, I also still have a fear of heights. Although I’m not sure it is “fear” so much as VERY healthy respect. I’ve considered bungee jumping or sky diving to beat it, but at this point I think it might just be a good survival instinct. I just have to avoid any jobs that would put me precariously perched above ground.

  • Abbot

    “see all men as potential rapists because she was raped by a single man once?”

    All casual sex is rape

    Some feminist said that years ago. Yes, these feminists do sometimes have lucid moments…

  • J

    The two of you are both genuinely sweet people, Jackie.

  • pennies

    Ted,

    I hate the thought of you or Jesus M. or any other guy who seems decent and committed worrying that their woman is reflecting back on their sexual past while with their current partner.

    I am just a wee bit younger than you and have had many women friends over the years. I have never, ever heard any of them say that they were missing a former lover because of his amazing ability to produce tingles and alpha orgasms. In general, most women I’ve met are focused on the present. They tend to talk a lot about what they value in their current relationship, how to make it even better, etc.

    I hate the thought of you worrying about something that is likely not happening.

    I also hate the idea that a younger man reading this blog would latch on to this constellation of worries.

    I can also add that I’ve known quite a few career women (journalists, academics, not-for-profit workers) who have delayed marriage and child rearing until their late 30s. In general, they prefer LTRs, but often find themselves casually dating in between LTRs. As you might imagine, their N climbs a bit high (10-15) after a while even if they are not sleeping around all that much. It’s just a function of them being in the dating market for a very long time. I can think of at least 10 women offhand who fit this description and I can assure you that they are deeply, deeply satisfied that they waited because they were able to find the right man. I have not heard any of them express dissatisfaction with their current partner in terms of sexual ability and in no way have their past relationships impacted their ability to bond with their long-term mate. An emotionally healthy woman will be able to love the person she is with in the present.

  • Iggles

    @ Ramble:

    It’s ironic that you put it that way since there is some research showing that women can smell when a man is getting “pre-selective” sex..

    Ha! I can appreciate the irony here 😆

  • For the single NT guys here, you should read this post by an NT woman.

    http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/hating-dating/

    She’s married to an INTJ, I believe.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie

    sssh! if it’s a matter of money?

    if knowledge of my twi-fetish got out – shudders.

    I didn’t lurve HG, but I enjoyed it. I read the trilogy back to back. The triangle in it was resolved to my (male) satisfaction – now that could have completely changed my view of the books, but fair is fair, it was worked out plausibly.

    have fun, I’m off for the evening

  • Mireille

    @Ted,

    Or your SO is one of those that secretly wished for GC but knew there was a small chance it’d happen. Then The Cloon appears and she cannot run faster to him, leaving you in the dust. Back to square one. All those convoluted to say that you cannot be living in fear like that. I’m not trying to shame anyone, it just makes me sad if some men are blocking on this.

    Why take as an example women who are barely adults as a reference? Men of the same age are not any better, so no use blaming those kids.
    One thing people have to consider, men always go for the best looking woman they can find and then downgrade from there if the inside doesn’t match with their requirements, heck you guys even create those absurd ranking systems like I saw in the manosphere (always HB was a type of pencil, silly me). Since I don’t consider myself Victoria Secret hot, should I consider that any man that date me thinks I’m his second choice? Or if he managed to date a model in the past ( but soon discovered her idea of a good time was doing cocaine and she was a follower of the Throwing Up Diet) and left, I should automatically dismiss him because God forbid he compares me to his exes?
    Not livable.

  • J

    I can control how I react to everything and anything in my life. So, being afraid is fine, but allowing it to affect your life is a choice.

    Aw, geez, I’ve this conversagtion with my DH a hundred times; oh, you INTJs! You never understand that it’s harder for other sorts of people to get control of themselves that way.

    I had a teacher that I was very close to in high school. She was new and perhaps 5 years older than I was. She had been raped while walking home from a bus stop and was terrified of strange men for years afterward. She knew it was irrational, but it took years for that fear to mellow into a healthy respect for dangerous circumstances.

    Although I don’t know if I’d test it again by holding a tarantula anytime soon..

    HHmmmmmmm.

  • Ted D

    Pennies – “An emotionally healthy woman will be able to love the person she is with in the present.”

    No argument from me here. But, I think the real challenge for men these days is figuring out who the “emotionally healthy” women are. Because frankly, it seems like more and more young women (and men for that matter) simply ARE NOT emotionally healthy.

    And I’m sure most women are probably exactly as you describe. But, I can tell you my ex-wife tried to strike up a relationship with a HS flame after she left because he was “the one that got away”, and I know two other men that suffered a similar fate, one WHILE they were still married!

    In terms of women putting off marriage and family, I get that, but I suggest that across the board it probably isn’t the best tactic for women to take. I think a much better idea would be to find a good guy in her 20’s, hitch her wagon to him and then work together to improve your lives as a team. Waiting for a career and into the 30’s means that although a woman is likely to find an “established” man, she will not have that foundation of being with him when he wasn’t, which works in her favor as any man with a clue will realize that she “bought in” when she was at her peak and he was not and reciprocate with loyalty and dedication. It may be easier to find a guy once he has done all the hard work for himself, but if he is at all aware, he will also be a MUCH harder ‘catch’ because he will be at the peak of his SMP/MMP value.

    THIS is what I want my children to understand:
    For my girls, their best bet is to always keep a focus on the long term for relationships if they want a husband and family. DO NOT “put it off” until your late 20’s or early 30’s, and instead look for the right guy WHILE working on a degree/career. For my boys, they will not truly reach their peak value until they are in their late 20’s and early 30’s. They should always keep looking for a good woman IF they want a family, but they will have a better selection if they wait until they are older and established. If they don’t find a woman by then, they should REALLY demand as much as they can before they settle, since whoever they marry will be reaping the benefits of their hard work WITHOUT putting in the effort to help him get there. So, she will need to offer something else to make it an equitable arrangement. I have no idea what that “else” is, but it is for them to decide.

  • J, thank you… you are too kind! However, I am not as nearly charming as Jackie. I have a bit of a cold, detached and analytical streak. People have mistaken me for a guy online before. 😛

  • Ted D

    J – “Aw, geez, I’ve this conversagtion with my DH a hundred times; oh, you INTJs! ”

    Is this really another MBTI type thing? I really need to read that more closely, because I’m finding more and more that the reason I just don’t understand most people is because I just don’t think like them. But, I can understand why it is said that INTJs tend to be arrogant and condescending. I don’t try to trivialize other people’s struggles, but I do it all the time if I’m not thinking about it…

  • Iggles

    @ Jackie:

    I’ll just use my parents as an example: My mom, before she met my dad, dated men who were *far* more handsome, athletic, and in all likelihood wealthier. (At least according to my mom’s friends, who remembered these guys.) But my dad was the one she married and stuck by, 110%.

    I will go further: Even after a disfiguring medical condition that was expected to kill him, she only became MORE devoted. Because she loved him as a person, not some “ideal of perfection” or George Clooney type.

    That’s what real love is. Not all this smoke and shadows, idealization and figments of the imagination. Or comparisons to what might be or what never was.

    Aww, this is so sweet 🙂 Your parents’ story is a beautiful one!

    I agree about your definition of true love 100%.

  • J

    J, thank you… you are too kind!

    Oddly, no one ever says that to me IRL. LOL.

    However, I am not as nearly charming as Jackie.

    Sure you are.

    I have a bit of a cold, detached and analytical streak. People have mistaken me for a guy online before.

    Me too.

  • Michael

    ”All casual sex is rape”

    The exact phrase is ” All heterosexual sex is rape.”

    A couple of decades believing in that, most of the feminist leaders get married, LOL. Of course they only marry Alpha males, maybe not in looks but in the social hierarchy these dudes are godzillas.

    Me thinks most feminists were and are ugly women who couldn’t have sex with the Alpha males, which made them want to spoil any possible sex for the average man who wanted to sleep with the average woman(”hehe, JFK does not want me, I’ll make sure most of the women will not want Average Joe, that should teach those shallow Alpha males!!” WTF).

  • pennies

    Gah, Ted!

    Post 491 is beyond cynical.

    I personally know many young women and young men in their 20s who are very thoughtful and introspective. They are definitely concerned about making a good match.

    And the carousel comment… I throw up my hands! Unless you live in some sort of weird vortex of sociopathy and Jersey Shore gold digging, this is not what most women’s internal thought processes are like…

  • Iggles

    @ Ian:

    Practically, male sexual escalation helps prod women to emotional escalation. There’s the female orgasm factor, the N-investment, and that “hard to get” ends once you’re gotten. I’m sure women can escalate emotionally without sex, but I’d wonder what the probabilities would be. (Aside, it helps explain how women get burned in a casual SMP.)

    Hmm.. this is interesting! Never thought about it that way before..

    It definitely was a factor in when I decided to have the DTR talk with my boyfriend. I don’t do casual sex (I know myself and I know hooking up with a guy NSA or for FWB would emotionally scar me; plus I think it’s way risky amongst other reasons). I wanted him to spend the night so I knew I had to talk with him about our relationship status first. I was super nervous because it’s a potentially make or break conversation, but I couldn’t budge on clarifying things between us.

  • J

    Is this really another MBTI type thing?

    I think so. It’s the combination of NT pragmatism and the judgmentalness. INTJs tends to be the sort who pull themselves up their bootstraps, see the locus of control as completely internal, and have little understanding of those who can’t do the same. INTPs, in contrast, seek to understand everything and everyone. They are often wellsprings of compassion . In fact, I used to be until DH started to point out to me how seeing the locus of control as completely external creates a victim mentality.

    I just don’t understand most people is because I just don’t think like them.

    Yeah, that’s a common INTx problem.

    I don’t try to trivialize other people’s struggles, but I do it all the time if I’m not thinking about it…

    I find that as an INTx, I really have to put in effort to think about other people’s feelings a lot. Otherwise, I forget about it. having spontaneous reciprocal feelings doesn’t come naturally.

  • Tasmin

    @Iggles
    ““Dating” to me means getting to know a potential romantic partners by going out on actual dates and conversation via phone/email/text. Kissing is not a preresiquite (i.e., the idea that every date must end in a kiss). It’s about determining if the two of you are compatible for a relationship and seeing if there’s physical chemistry between you both. You don’t have to have sex to know if you want to be exclusive with someone!”

    This is one of the critical things I missed in my earlier post. It isn’t just dating multiple people, but it is the challenge of unwinding how people define “dating” coupled with the whole first date or third date sex issue within a culture that finds things like the “bachelor/bachelorette” tv shows as even remotely normal/acceptable.

    Having a cup of coffee or drink or dinner with a couple of different people in the same week may still feel a little strange to me, but it is certainly a far stretch from banging – or even making out with one and going out two nights later with the other. I’ve heard enough reporting about first-date physical that my assumption is that with this multiple strategy at some point most people are going to be (at least) making out with two people within a short period of time. To me this is something that should have died off after freshman year in college. But then I have also had “the talk” about commitment and sex and upon asking how she viewed ‘sleeping around’ and ‘casual sex’ was met with “well, how do you define ‘sleeping around’?” So these days, it is all a guessing game.

    On the flipside, I did date a women with whom we very quickly established how we defined these things. I believe I said something along the lines of “I only kiss one girl at a time”. Which seems kind of lame, but I suppose looking back it established that she was the one I was interested in dating+kissing and that I could be “dating” other women (which I wasn’t) but chose to escalate with her alone. So in some ways, I guess I didn’t give up the fact that I could have other options, but also was very clear with her that she was the focus.

    The challenge was that she WAS dating other men – and while not kissing/sexing them up, still enjoyed the attention. In other words, she could not – would not drop the plates, but rather shelved them. In her mind she eventually did – as we quickly became “exclusive”, however the texting and facebooking with these dates-turned-friends and the other categories of orbiting men proved to be too disruptive for me to continue, but I guess that is a whole other story.

    Regardless of how that situation turned out, I found it to be very attractive and complementary that she made it clear that she was/would only be kissing me – and vice/versa. In reality those periods of overlap can be short, but they can also be important in establishing interest and anchoring attraction early on. And I think it can be done without sacrificing/subordinating other options too early, whether real or in my case, perceived. When those definitions get muddled, I think it can be hard to recover.

  • Iggles

    @ Cooper:

    But that’s only you. Susan has said to me, among many many others stating in this thread (see spinning plates), that a man haveing other options is a huge attractor.
    So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are. One can not rely on stumbling upon someone like you who would see things differently.

    I agree that a man having options is attractive. But where I disagree is that he needs to do this by having casual sex on the regular (when you are not in committed relationship all the sex you are having is casual).

    The biggest indicator of a man having options is his competence and confidence in his dealings with women. I’m talking about one on one, when you are on a date – can he look you in the eye? Talk about himself and ask you questions with ease? Or is he nervous or supplicating? For women, a man who is successful (i.e., reaches his career goals, is financially stable, etc) and has good chemistry with them (both mentally and physical) is understood to be a good catch.

    If you feel that someone is a good catch then you instinctively know they have options. Works the same way in reverse. If a man considers a woman a good catch then he knows she has other options.

    This is gender neutral, in the regard that no one of either gender wants to date someone who they think can’t possible snag the interest of anybody else UNLESS there’s a power dynamic they feed off of (i.e, manipulators and abuser love to date people they can control).

  • Herb

    @Susan

    And let’s face it, if I’m going to objectified by both “alphas” and “betas”, I’d better get a motorcycle ride out of it.

    OMG my day is already getting better! This is so fantastic, I love it. Look for this to show up at the top of a post soon.

    Will you also endorse, “And let’s face it, if I’m just going to get used for free dinners I might as well get a P&D out of it”?

    • @Herb

      Will you also endorse, “And let’s face it, if I’m just going to get used for free dinners I might as well get a P&D out of it”?

      Yes I would.

  • Abbot

    “The exact phrase is ” All heterosexual sex is rape.”

    Yes, but since rape is supposedly not sex then all casual sex is rape because true sex implies knowing and having feelings for someone.

    All casual sex is rape.

    That phrase is about to send a shock wave through the sex positive cult

    Think about it. How many women wake up from a non-casual sex encounter crying rape?

  • Mireille

    @ Iggles

    Totally agree! The guy I’m eyeing at the moment had all this going on for him. Pretty hot to me. I don’t need to see other women chasing him to know he’s quality, I have eyes on my own. At any rate, knowing that other women are around might discourage me since I might get in the “Ted cycle of fear” thinking “it’s just a matter of time before he falls for one of these women”.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble & Other Interested in N. Korea:

    Completely, totally and absolutely off-topic (but fascinating):
    http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3

    Later, gators 🙂

  • Tasmin, I think the desire for emotional as well as physical exclusivity might be a very INF* thing. Ted D has said he doesn’t care who else his girlfriend talks to, as long as she only does physical stuff with him. It also sounds like he’s not upset by platonic male friendships.

    My husband and I are definitely a bit more jealous and possessive. We both dropped other people of the opposite sex we had conversations with, after having a brief talk about it. He even deleted his Facebook profile after we moved in together, albeit mostly for other reasons. I log into Facebook maybe once a month, and only to keep up on female friends’ activities.

    I think girls should not collect “orbiters.” Even if she doesn’t think there’s anything between them, having them around is still giving her validation and attention. The guys are still dropping little flirty vibes like “you look good” or trying to comfort her when she’s having a bad day. I think it disrupts a really solid bond for the primary relationship and often leads to instability. Because I’ve seen the kind of damage it can do, I reserve that level of interaction for my husband only.

  • Iggles

    Tasmin @ 518:

    Wow. Your whole post makes me realize how confusing the whole plates thing can be! I know how I approached it, but it doesn’t really work if one person isn’t willing to drop the other plates once they found someone they want to escalate with!

    Having a cup of coffee or drink or dinner with a couple of different people in the same week may still feel a little strange to me, but it is certainly a far stretch from banging – or even making out with one and going out two nights later with the other.

    I’ve done the former (dates), but not the latter! I know it’s somewhat common these days but having such a cavalier attitude towards making out is alien to me. I can count the number of guys I’ve kissed on one hand and every time was in the context of having relationship potential (i.e., it not making out with a stranger in a club).

    But then I have also had “the talk” about commitment and sex and upon asking how she viewed ‘sleeping around’ and ‘casual sex’ was met with “well, how do you define ‘sleeping around’?” So these days, it is all a guessing game.

    That reads like a red flag! Seems like she was trying to calibrate her answer.

    In reality those periods of overlap can be short, but they can also be important in establishing interest and anchoring attraction early on. And I think it can be done without sacrificing/subordinating other options too early, whether real or in my case, perceived. When those definitions get muddled, I think it can be hard to recover.

    Agreed!
    It’s so tricky these days, you have to figure out how to manage as you go.

  • I think a lot of this angst over the SMP would probably change if the divorce rate dropped to 10-15% and the family law system was completely overhauled. As it stands, a man who gets married is playing Russian roulette with his financial and emotional health, with the additional problem that there are three chambers loaded in this particular revolver. Perhaps there should be more activism by SMP-disgusted women targeting this side of the equation.

    Those looking to turn back the clock on the SMP can probably start writing off a lot of college campuses. As I stated in a previous post, I average about 8 men and 18 women in my classes and I will extrapolate from this to describe a more general college dynamic of increasing male scarcity. Even if all 8 men were beta-commitment-freak LTR enthusiasts and the female students were homogeneous in their own preferences for LTRs (they are not), that would still leave 10 women without a…chair to sit on when the music stops. Numerous social experiments have revealed that it takes far less numerical inequality to cause a bidding war to begin and for the price of sex to plummet. It’s also a core Guttentag-Secord assumption.

    Absent major changes to the legal system, a lot of women may end up with a stark choice between being FWBs (although perhaps with an exclusivity package included) with a higher-SMV male who wants to avoid the revolver; being in a relationship with a judgmental and somewhat paranoid lower-SMV “commitment slut” man who watches her like a hawk and screams “Oh, Jesus, you WHORE” if she downloads Fifty Shades; and essentially living in a nunnery and relying on her battery-operated boyfriend.

    There will be exceptions, of course: an 11-SMV Lara Croft is probably going to eventually get who she wants. However, I think the general trends are clear. Some of you single guys here at HUS should be particularly well-placed, since you seem to represent the small percentage of men who *could* obtain casual sex but who simply don’t enjoy it. You all should have no problems finding and keeping GFs.

    • @bastiat

      I think a lot of this angst over the SMP would probably change if the divorce rate dropped to 10-15% and the family law system was completely overhauled

      That is the divorce rate among the college educated. The family law system still sucks for those men, but the risk is mitigated by certain factors.

      that would still leave 10 women without a…chair to sit on when the music stops.

      I love the musical chairs analogy, it’s perfect. I once infuriated a bunch of feminists with it.

  • Ted D

    Pennies – “Unless you live in some sort of weird vortex of sociopathy and Jersey Shore gold digging, this is not what most women’s internal thought processes are like…”

    Not exactly. But I am being encroached on by lots of section 8 housing and our area is starting to look a bit like an urban war zone in a few places. I’m not at all thrilled by what’s going on around me, but I base my views on what I see in my vicinity. And honestly, the young people around me really just aren’t “getting it together” in a timely manner. I didn’t go straight to college after HS, but I got out and started working. (a shit job that got me to hit college in fact) But instead I see a general lack of responsibility from people who are legally adults, and very little effort to plan for the future.

    But that being said, Pittsburgh is still primarily a “blue collar” town, and much of what is discussed here is focused at a much higher SES than I grew up in. The people I grew up with never did any of this introspection. Mostly they either went straight to college because they were “supposed to”, or they ended up pregnant (or getting someone pregnant) and simply making the best of it. In short, around these parts, life isn’t planned for, it just happens. It drives me crazy, but as far as I can tell that is the norm.

    Hope – “Tasmin, I think the desire for emotional as well as physical exclusivity might be a very INF* thing. Ted D has said he doesn’t care who else his girlfriend talks to, as long as she only does physical stuff with him. It also sounds like he’s not upset by platonic male friendships.”

    I’m on the fence here. My SO does indeed have a few male friends, but it would be a lie to say it didn’t bother me at first. It was only after getting to know them a bit myself that I felt more at ease. I can see that the relationships are very “sibling” like, and since my SO only had brothers, I don’t see it as unusual that she would have a few male friends of similar character as them. (it also helps that those male friends are married and at least seem to be happy about it.)

    However for the most part, I’m not a fan of opposite sex friendships. The only female “friends” I have are attached to a male friend, none of which are single.

  • HanSolo

    The 40% statistic of women having a ONS while on vacation is from the female users of misstravelcom that “sports the slogan ‘Beautiful People Travel Free’ [and] aims at pairing rich men who don’t like to travel alone, with attractive women aged 18-30 who want a free vacation.”

    Sort of a travel sugar-daddy-baby site.

    So, this is not a representative population from which to infer properties about 18-30 yo women, while travelling, in general.

    However, I think there is some truth to the legs opening a bit more easily for some women while on vacation.

  • Tasmin

    @Hope
    I don’t see it as possessive as much as I see it as respectful or indicative of the ability to fully invest. Too much of that type of communication and managed proximity just feels like hedging or orbiting to me. In that particular case there were other issues going on relating to the timing of texts, calls, and some ‘checking in’ things that just didn’t sit well with me.

    Eventually I discovered her in a lie: she had said one of these ‘friends’ that would blow up her phone at strange times was gay – so you know, “nothing could even happen, even if I wanted to, which I don’t”. And I believed her – I didn’t doubt that I was her choice, but I still felt that something was strange about it. What she didn’t know was that due to a common friend, I would eventually find out that a) he was not gay, and b) they dated for a short time but it ended when she moved out west. But that didn’t get revealed until it was already over. While I know that I was her choice, her primary focus, I felt that it was still disrespectful and ‘hedgy’ to continue a friendship with an ex when there was really no reason to be maintaining a bi-coastal friendship with a man that she’d had a fling with, unless….

    In any case, the lie would have eventually imploded things. She probably lied because she knew that I had zero contact with anyone I have ever been in a relationship with and felt that I would have disapproved. Approval or not, I certainly would question the purpose of such a relationship, so yes, maybe it is somewhere embedded in my INFP, but I those kinds of free-floating relationships with other men get my antennae all up and wiggly. It isn’t so much about cheating, per se, but more about being ready to invest fully, to shed the training wheels, those external sources of attention, sexual (potential), emotional, or otherwise.

    These days I just assume that their facebook pages have exes and lurkers that she likes to “keep in touch with” and that the guy down at the yoga studio with the cute little man-ponytail that chats her up is not gay, even if he wears those tight miniature underwearish yoga pants, and just focus on bigger issues, of which there are obviously plenty these days. But if a woman does not feel the need to “keep in touch” or make love to her phone on the bar, then she has a huge tailwind with me. For whatever that is worth.

  • Iggles

    @ Mireille:

    At any rate, knowing that other women are around might discourage me since I might get in the “Ted cycle of fear” thinking “it’s just a matter of time before he falls for one of these women”.

    We’re definitely on the same page 😉

    The idea of pre-selection is lost on me. I don’t want to feel like I’m one of many girls vying for a guy’s affections. Seeing a guy I like with other women who are actively trying to get with him wouldn’t make me want to battle for him.

    Instead of increasing attraction, to me it comes off as building up dread. As a result, both my interest in him and confidence that a relationship between is us feasible would wane.

  • Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.

    I’m deadly afraid of dogs and I still make sure to be nice to them as much as I can and I apologize to the owners for my irrational fear. No to mention I’m working on it one dog at the time.

    I think so. It’s the combination of NT pragmatism and the judgmentalness. INTJs tends to be the sort who pull themselves up their bootstraps, see the locus of control as completely internal, and have little understanding of those who can’t do the same.

    In my case is a bit of experience seeing the whole “the way to hell is paved with good intentions” compassion is waaay overrated and the idea that making people feel uncomfortable for their personal choices as evil as well.
    I was witness of how the lowering of shame created a society that enabled behaviors and once you raise people with aversion to hardships everything else falls apart. We went from a somehow stable rates of WWO births among low class with low levels among the upper class and “separation” to having women becoming babymamas in what we call Centipede family. Because even without welfare they had family members supportive of their choice so suddenly making a mistake with different men wasn’t that bad.
    The same thing happened with cheating men that didn’t lost their attractiveness to better women out of having “a kid out of wedlock” also were more daring and pushed for sex while everyone else enable them.
    The same for the only female friend that I know that has cheated she moved to slut town were most of married women cheated on and it took a decade for her to start seeing it as “well it cannot be that bad, divorce is worst and my husband is not satisfying me” or my friend that is with kid number 4 from 3 different women and wants 11 and he will get them women are not punishing him because he goes and fish for low class women that having a man that will pay them money regularly for their kid and the chance of having an upgrade like an apartment (he bought one for her oldest child) is the equivalent of marrying Edward…
    So yeah in my case is “enabling, being understanding of our weaknesses = bad. Shaming, telling people that just because something is hard doesn’t mean doesn’t need to get done = good” Being there done that.
    I wish we could find a middle ground though like giving a lot of good incentive to good behaviors, but it seems that no one wants that so what else can we do.
    Funny enough I’m more like your DH with my husband that sometimes doesn’t get why I’m so quick to judge. He is a bit judgmental but he usually ask more info before labeling someone “idiot”, of course since I always back up my examples with proof he can’t really claim I’m wrong, YMMV.

  • Tasmin, I think that kind of lying is just foolish. I was also talking to an ex-turned-friend (sort of) when I was starting to talk to my husband, but that was above board and in the open. When I was asked to stop talking to the ex, I did. Why jeopardize something awesome?

    On the other hand, some guys could feel differently about this subject, like if a girl is unable to remain friendly with any ex’s, it might mean she’s crazy or not properly socialized. I have actually known social situations where a girl and her new boyfriend remained friendly with an ex. I personally wouldn’t be able to withstand the awkwardness of that scenario!

  • Mireille

    @Iggles,

    Indeed, what sane person wants to be in some episode of “The Bachelor?”. There is a reason the relationships coming out of that fail. People aren’t focusing on winning over the object of their affection, rather eliminating the competition. Later, they realize that the “prize” is really not what they thought the guy was. Now, everybody is frustrated because there was emotional/sexual escalation but no real connection.

  • On the other hand, some guys could feel differently about this subject, like if a girl is unable to remain friendly with any ex’s, it might mean she’s crazy or not properly socialized. I have actually known social situations where a girl and her new boyfriend remained friendly with an ex. I personally wouldn’t be able to withstand the awkwardness of that scenario!

    My husband last ex was at our second wedding that was not bad at all, but I did had to block her from facebook she is kind of “unpolite” and although nice to me she had this penchant for doing strange comments to the people on my list that didn’t made me look good. She still talks to him over e-mail but aside from an occasional weird comment I don’t worry.

  • Also Sharing a man —–>you could get a deadly STD that kills you or renders you infertile. I keep thinking that women that care more about a man’s feelings than a man actions on cheating most have something preventing this (more resistance to STD’s or less ability to secure another man thus they have to cope with it? dunno) since is the first gut feeling I get if I even dream of getting cheated on “That dick dirty of another vaginal juices doesn’t get anywhere mine”, YMMV

  • Mike C

    That’s a utilitarian argument – morality is flexible and fluid. I reject it. Others may have a different opinion, of course.

    You sure about that?

    Take this hypothetical. You are in Nazi Germany, and you are hiding Jews in a secret area. The Nazi SS comes to your door, and asks if you if you are hiding any Jews or seen any Jews. Do you lie?

    To be clear, I am not equating the scenarios, but the general idea of ethics/morals/principles being driven by some type of utilitarian perspective is well-founded

    What if you were thrust into a Hunger Game situation? Would you kill to survive?

    • @Mike C

      We should move the convo to the new post. There are three types of ethics: morality (no compromise), virtual (lying is OK for altruism or noble goals), and utilitarian (altruism also OK, but so is selfish gain).

      Also, are you really equating Nazi Germany to guys’ obligations in a dysfunctional SMP?

      What if you were thrust into a Hunger Game situation? Would you kill to survive?

      OK wait – this is not about honesty. Also, Katniss didn’t actually wind up killing anyone except in self-defense. I like to think I’d take a similar approach. I get your point though – we are all capable of every conceivable kind of violence. Most of us don’t get tested.

  • Just1X

    @Susan #531
    “I did see that – in fact that article led me to ask Just1X why British women are such loose gooses.”

    I did answer at the time (I’m assuming that you missed it). I’m sure that you can hunt it quicker than me ‘flat’ & ‘Just1X’ ought to narrow it right down (flat = apartment)

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    “Interesting. As a woman, I see a huge difference. For starters, STD transmission is much higher with concurrent than sequential partners, regardless of N, due to the duration of the relationships, in general (from WebMD). ”

    I was assuming that there will be a delay between infection -> symptoms -> doctor. I specified that the 3 hook ups were in quick succession. I did not mean that n=3 (over some reasonable time period) is the same as 3 concurrent FWBs

  • Iggles

    @ Anacaona:

    since is the first gut feeling I get if I even dream of getting cheated on “That dick dirty of another vaginal juices doesn’t get anywhere mine”, YMMV

    Lol! Excellent sound bite 😆

    I hear you on not being cool with sharing a man! If I love a man then I want all of his attention. There’s no way I could ever be okay with him kissing/hooking up/dating another woman. I’m possessive like that in regards to his romantic & sexual attention, and his body. I would feel majorly disrespected and betrayed.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Batistat

    “You all should have no problems finding and keeping GFs.”
    But this is actually quite a terrifying prospect to be in. The screening methods for filtering out bad girls is not fully developed in males who are just realizing their increased SMV in their mid-20s, but all of a sudden they are getting lots of female attention, and most of it will be extremely damaging.

    I am not saying that I want to be Omega and this is a First World Problem, I understand, but it is still terrifying.

    Here comes in my protest:

    “Not all dating is about trying to find a spouse. There is a difference between what you might want in a date on a Saturday night when you’re 19 and what you might be looking for in someone to spend the rest of your life with.”

    How the fuck am I supposed to know this girl has REALLY matured? And since she decided I wasn’t good enough for a date on Saturday night when she was 19, why in God’s Name should I trust her with THE REST OF MY LIFE?!

    Hence where the protest comes in with a girl who dated George Clooney: GC is very clearly opposed to marriage and family. Why the hell is any girl dating him?

    I guess the answer is “OMG HE’S GEORGE CLOONEY HOW COULD YOU NOT?!”

    And, yeah, I honestly do understand that.

    And it makes me distrustful of that girl. She has to go a long, long, LONG way to demonstrating she has changed and actually values me. It’s a red-flag.

    As is dating an Alpha.

    You notice that Sassy here is stating a strong preference for Alphas, with many conditions attached. If she hypothetically came up to me 5 years later and stated she’s over that whole Alpha thing and now wants to date a Beta, how am I supposed to react? Mirellie here is suggesting “life goals” or some such, but my male mind and most of the other male minds here would instantly enter a defensive stance.

    And for good reason.

  • Lol! Excellent sound bite
    Glad you like it! My other one a bit more crash was “If I wanted to taste pussy I’ll become a lesbian”
    I must say that I lost a lot of “good” men with my hard line on cheating but I think it worked out for the best in the end.

  • Susan, I agree about the supplicating thing. I dated guys who were that way, and I gave them multiple chances. It just didn’t work. Add to the fact that they were also receptive to the advances of other girls (the whole “I feel so lucky to have any girl’s attention!” deal), and it was all around crappy.

  • Asking women to find this sexually attractive is like asking men to sprout a boner for a hairy upper lip.

    I don’t ask to be found attractive but to give the guy a chance to outgrow it any reader of this site knows that this is not some sort of dark machination from guys but a product of feminist upbringing. I don’t think this is supposed to last a whole relationship but usually the early stages. Didn’t you had a reader that had this problem talked to the guy to tone it down and it looked like he got the message and they continued dating? How that worked out?

    PS
    I personally know women with hairy upper lips that are happily married with children and some men have a fetish for this, YMMV.

    • . Didn’t you had a reader that had this problem talked to the guy to tone it down and it looked like he got the message and they continued dating? How that worked out?

      I just heard from her! They are still together – she sent me the cutest picture. She says he is wonderful, and has been a rock during their relationship.

      So you are absolutely right – a woman can and should encourage the alpha characteristics in her man, and in sizing him up should consider that potential for growth. We are all a work in progress. My husband had a strong influence on me, he got me to be more grounded and less flighty (social butterfly).

  • Add to the fact that they were also receptive to the advances of other girls (the whole “I feel so lucky to have any girl’s attention!” deal), and it was all around crappy.

    Then your issue here is not the supplication but the receptiveness to others. He wasn’t happy because of you but because you were a girl, that does makes more sense. I just don’t think is the way most supplicating guys operate, YMMV.

  • Iggles

    @ Anacaona:

    Glad you like it! My other one a bit more crash was “If I wanted to taste pussy I’ll become a lesbian”

    Lol! You’re on a roll 😆

    I must say that I lost a lot of “good” men with my hard line on cheating but I think it worked out for the best in the end.

    I feel the same way about cheating. It’s not something I think I could get past. For me it’s part ego wound, part irrevocably broken trust… I’d imagine it would be a hard road getting the relationship back to where it should be for me to feel secure and the hurt to heal.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    That’s three come-ons for Michael today by lunchtime! I’m on the edge of my seat – what did the afternoon bring?????

    My curiosity is piqued as well! 😉

  • M3

    Susan asked

    Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?

    Well if he
    1. looks like George Clooney or Justin Beiber
    2. is adept at placing himself next to ladies at patios or park benches
    3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women

    then yes i can believe it.

    Coincidentally, i have a friend of a friend.. i can’t comment on his looks, but i’m in better shape than him, but he always gets women interacting with him without trying. For the love of me i cant understand. Yeah he’s got big eyebrows but hell…

    Some guys just seem to ooze those pheromones that drive women crazy regardless of what they look like. Maybe Michaels got’m too.

    In the meantime, i’ll stick with my old spice/axe combo with a hint of Givenchy Play.

  • Tassie

    From Jason773 @ 434:
    Based on my experience as well, women WILL NOT run from that kind of situation. In fact, I’ve seen it excite an even greater eagerness to ‘win’. While I haven’t been asked if I was seeing others very often, I have divulged this info voluntarily in a few circumstances and it’s almost as if I’ve been rewarded for a period. Now, I will say, once the info was divulged the women didn’t stay in the ‘harem’ forever, but they stuck around long enough to see if they had a legit shot.

    I found this comment – and my reaction (as a woman who doesn’t engage in casual sex) – quite interesting.

    If I were in the ‘hmm not sure yet’ stage still about this guy, divulging that info would elicit a ‘thanks, it’s been fun’.

    If, however, I were genuinely interested in pursuing a relationship with this guy, I would ‘show my cards’ and emotionally escalate, and request exclusivity.

  • Michael

    ”Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?”

    Surprised? Why? older men love young women but older women can’t enjoy eye candy themselves, or it is impossible for a non-alpha who is young and living in a big city to be sexually noticed? Who said anything about being approached? Women only approach Alpha males, bro. To me, they either stare at me until they have to get off at their stop, or they provide ”approach me/talk to me” sign and wait for me to do all of the work.

    It’s ridiculous. I’d expect this from virginal women(as if there are any LOL) but grown-up women still expecting men to do everything, meh.

    What’s impressive is how my Alpha friends don’t approach women and have extremely attractive women throwing themselves onto them, sleep with them, and move on without expecting anything in return.

    Now that’s impressive! And a reality worth aiming for.

  • Kathy

    Susan: “Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?”

    Ha ha ha ha…

    He’s an exuberant, inexperienced young bloke..Only 20 years old, and it shows in his writing.

    Best to take what he says with a leetle grain of salt. 😉

  • Mireille

    @Susan & Iggles

    I don’t Michael success anywhere. He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them and a lonely library rat. Hardly Casanova at work here. No offense.

  • Michael

    ”Well if he
    1. looks like George Clooney or Justin Beiber
    2. is adept at placing himself next to ladies at patios or park benches
    3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women”

    No. I look more like Edward Maya, the Romanian Musician. With stubble and without it. My hair is much darker, though. But we share the same body type but I think he has 2 inches on me.

    I do have very feminine features. Maybe they don’t feel threatened by me. Or it has something to do with different immunity systems, I dunno. I’ve talked already about how I went to several stores with an Alpha male and the first store we visited, the clerk, an attractive blonde in her mid 20’s had to cover her nose at all times because she couldn’t stand my body odor(I sweat a lot, it was a summer’s day and I had no deodorant).

    In the second store we visited, the second I entered the clerk noticed me. She was tall, I mean, 5’10” at least, with extremely thick and long dark hair, curly(!) had dark eyes, crooked teeth(her only flaw as far as I can tell. She tried to hide her teeth when she was talking to me. It was cute) but damn, her body was smoking. Top model material right there without being anorectic.

    That one girl wasn’t repelled by my scent. She payed a lot of attention to me. Didn’t bother with my Alpha friend except when he was cashing his item out and she was the only one in the store working, didn’t even look at the other Alpha dudes who were behind us, and became so nervous that she forgot to take the alarm thingy all store articles have.

    We exit the store and the alarm starts ringing. She starts giggly running towards us, staring at the ground and smiling, looks up at me, and tells me she made a mistake and we’d have to return to the store with her. I don’t know why she directed all of her focus on me; I didn’t buy anything, I couldn’t afford it, lol. This was one of those ”a pair of slashed jeans » 300 dollars

  • Michael

    So we return to the store with her and she removes the alarm from the item, looks at me, smiles, and stands there. Me and my buddy get out of the store and I never returned to that place. My Alpha friend told me she was ”totally” checking me out but why would a girl whose sexual market is almost a 10 be interested in a poor as ass average-looking student?

    She did seem to have some African blood in her. My ancestors are mostly from the Iberian Peninsula. Maybe it’d be a good mix and her biology was telling her that. Was I intimidated by her? You sure as hell can bet I was. I can’t handle that type of woman, yet. Maybe if I had had to use game to have her warm up to me I would’ve been prepared to close the deal(ask for the number and then a date, and then escalate it) but a young, very attractive woman already receptive to my interest?

    NOPE.

    On the other hand, I was eye-fckd by a very obese young woman today. Can’t hit it right all the time..

    It’s kinda strange, though. If I’m clean shaven, I attract the ”stare at you until you decide to look away or you man up and approach me, you little coward!” but, depending on how far advanced my stubble is, I either attract the notice of older women, like in their 30’s but still attractive or younger girls, jailbait. None of which Is a safe bet, lol.

  • Michael

    ”I don’t Michael success anywhere. He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them and a lonely library rat. Hardly Casanova at work here. No offense.”

    No offense taken. The 2 women had pretty much a low SMV number. What they think of me matters not. The library rat was hardly alone. She’s a 5, maybe a 6 if she fixes her clothing and make-up. Plenty of guys offering their dicks, no doubt. I’m only 20 and I was raised to be a beta.

    But my father was an airforce pilot. My ancestors fought in every war, and I have absolute control over my desires and emotions, which is a good trick to have if you want to go around. Give me time. I’m hanging out mostly with Alpha males and learning their ways. Soon enough I’ll be one of the guys Susan warns her female audience to avoid, LOL.

  • Michael

    ”He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them”

    By the way, it’d be hardly fear of being assaulted, but more of a tone of narcissism expressed by this garbage-level SMV women. Sometimes I eat my lunch in this garden next to my college and I observe the people who pass by.

    There’s a certain distance from the place I sit to eat and the street connecting it to all of the others. Many young women walk through that street to get to our college. I can see them, but they can’t see me unless they looking for me. I’ve noticed that the vast majority of the women can’t look the men in the eye. Some of those dudes are very attractive so I assumed the women wouldn’t stare at the ground and act like they’re cornered rats. Nope, they are still mighty afraid of men.

    Maybe it’s part of the feminist propaganda taking effect. Back in HS the feminists would come and talk a lot of BS against men, something like 1 in every 3 women being raped and such, and other BS created to make women hate men.

  • Kathy

    “Soon enough I’ll be one of the guys Susan warns her female audience to avoid, LOL.”

    Ha! I thought you already were, given the oodles of comments and anecdotes proffered here. Not to mention your depth of knowledge and sage advice regarding women. LOL! LOL! LOL!
    😉

  • Michael

    ”Ha! I thought you already were, given the oodles of comments and anecdotes proffered here. Not to mention your depth of knowledge and sage advice regarding women. LOL! LOL! LOL!”

    You can thank Roissy for me. lolololololol.

    ”lol”

  • Michael

    ”3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women””

    This works remarkably fine. Last year I had to take care of my aunt’s pup. The daughters of the owner of the coffee shop next to my house are obese, but they have a friend who is 6 feet tall(!!) and blonde, rather cute, with a bubble butt. I had noticed her before but again, it was too much sand for my truck. I just limited myself to eye-fck her to oblivion.

    One day I took the dog for a walk. My dad called me on the phone to tell me to go to that coffee shop after the walk but I didn’t feel like going up and then down. I went to the coffee shop with the dog. Guess who was there?

    There was also an Alpha dude there. He tried to pick her up in front of her parents but it didn’t work. He resumed his drink, and the girl starts talking to me. She hadn’t even noticed my existence before. I didn’t say nothing – other than melting in front of her.

    This year I went to my church’s annual ball and the girl was there with her ugly girlfriends. I was standing in the same spot for 30 minutes. I look to my left and there’s the girl’s ass staring at me. I stayed in that position, again, for more 30 minutes and the girl had to have noticed my obsession with her ass. Didn’t move.

    Her girlfriends wanted to go dancing, the walk to the stage and when they return, with all of the wide space the girl(obviously the Alpha female of the pack)walks right in front of me. I could smell her neck, and she wasn’t using perfume. She did the same thing some three more times and then parked again next to me.

    I didn’t do anything because I’m a little pussy, but man do I wish Roissy was there to coach me through!

    Anyway, babies and cute dogs are great chick magnets.

  • @ Ted and others re: “Choking down the Red Pill”

    One of the things not many people will tell you (because many of them don’t know it themselves) is that the Red Pill is an incomplete representation of reality in a lot of ways. It isn’t the end.

    People write about it like it’s the Red Pill or a world of illusion and compare it to the movie “The Matrix.” A more accurate comparison would be with the movie “Inception” with one level stacked upon another, a dream within a dream within a dream. Red Pill Land is in the middle somewhere, but it isn’t the end.

    One of the many focuses of Red Pill Land is differences. Differences between what people say and what they do, differences between men and women, differences between Alpha and Beta. It can be disenheartening and seem overly adversarial.

    But if you can accept it and move past it, you start to enter the next level which focuses on how people are at their core, the same. You start seeing that despite their apparent differences most of us want the same sorts of things, love, acceptance, companionship, that at heart, men and women, alpha and beta, have more similarities than differences. I think we come away feeling less judgmental, more compassionate, and more accepting, not just of others, but of ourselves.

    The first level, you learn about people from what they say.

    In Red Pill Land you learn about people from what they do.

    And on the next level you start to learn about people from who they are.

    Anyway, I encourage you Ted, and others who are having trouble with what they’re seeing to keep plugging away. Contrary to what cynics or people still hopelessly mired in Red Pill Land tell you, there’s a lot more out there.

    And when you find it, it’s worth getting there.

    Good luck.

  • So you are absolutely right – a woman can and should encourage the alpha characteristics in her man, and in sizing him up should consider that potential for growth. We are all a work in progress. My husband had a strong influence on me, he got me to be more grounded and less flighty (social butterfly).
    Of course I’m right I’m always right…:D

    Seriously I’m glad they got past that issue. I always considered the first stages of dating akin to when you are in that awkward stage between childhood and puberty and we all look awful in it, specially inexperienced guys.
    Giving a man that is not doing anything downright awful (cheating, abusing, paying attention to any broom with a warm hole that looks at him) sometime before “labeling him undatable” is important this is the glimpse of things to come and also probably some men are supplicating because this is what they think women want. If you tell him “No I don’t like this, stop it” or “I really like you and I’m glad you like me so much but hear it constantly takes away the specialness of it” or simply waiting a bit to let him realize that you are not going anywhere and have his normal life take care of the supplication (and really I’m sure once things settle down he will more likely want to have time back for friends work, and hobbies men are more prone to ignore you than to be around you 24/7 with few exceptions) I think is a good advice to give.

    Of course this depends on other things Sassy probably will not find this strategy sound given her past experiences and it wouldn’t work with her, either. So again patience is important but moderation on all things including moderation, YMMV.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Dan_Brodribb, #586

    That post is all kinds of awesome. Those levels remind me of how my view of religions evolved. I think I have arrived at stage three as a non-active religious pluralist. Now I can enjoy everyone’s holiday celebrations and free food without being antagonistic or hyper critical. 🙂

    My attitude regarding the SMP battles is still evolving, though. I still get upset by narcissists (cads) and I side with the “victim” most of the time.

  • Emily

    I think the main lesson in this “plate spinning” debate is that, from a female perspective, “don’t ask, don’t tell” is a terrible strategy.

    When I first started dating my bf, I didn’t think he was dating anybody else (and he wasn’t), but I was still really quick to have the “relationship talk” just to be sure.

    I think I’m kind of similar to Ted D. when it comes to hearing about previous partners etc. That sort of thing tends to bother me more than it should. I was actually very glad that I caught my bf while he was going through a long “dry spell”, but I’m probably weird. : P

    In theory, I’m not against guys “spinning plates” as long as there’s no dishonesty involved. But also I think that I would be very hurt if a guy was to kiss me one day and then have sex with somebody else the next. If that strategy works then for you then great, but I don’t think I would have what it takes to date a “spinner”.

    • @Emily

      I think the main lesson in this “plate spinning” debate is that, from a female perspective, “don’t ask, don’t tell” is a terrible strategy.

      It sure is. It’s like wearing a sexy outfit in the neighborhood when a rapist is loose or going up to a bedroom at a frat house during a party. We all have a responsibility to protect ourselves by staying out of harm’s way or at least not looking for trouble. Of course, that doesn’t make rape OK. The intent of the perp remains the central issue.

  • HanSolo

    @Dan_Brodribb Thanks for your comment. It made me think of the 3 stages of interactions in 7 Habits of Highly Effective people (dependent, independent, and then interdependent) and also the 3 levels in David Deida’s writings that are basically similar (Dependence, 50/50, and Intimate Communion).

    Pre-red-pill seems very similar to dependent in many though not all cases, independent or 50/50 seems like a lot of women and some men these days and then intimate communion is where two emotionally healthy people come together in love to reach heights that neither alone nor in the lower 2 stages can be achieved. I think good relationships in the past have been able to reach this 3rd stage too but most relns. were 1st stage dependent ones.

    Would be curious to hear your thoughts on the post red pill world.

  • Iggles

    @ Michael:

    No. I look more like Edward Maya, the Romanian Musician.

    Are you aware that when you google that name this is photo that comes up?

    http://syedelin.blogbloc.com/uploads/edward_maya_2009_04.jpg

    I did a double take before clicking on the images tab :lol;

  • Iggles

    @ Emily:

    I think I’m kind of similar to Ted D. when it comes to hearing about previous partners etc. That sort of thing tends to bother me more than it should. I was actually very glad that I caught my bf while he was going through a long “dry spell”, but I’m probably weird. : P

    Well, I guess I’m weird too! I’m not fond about hearing about Exes either. Also, before I met my bf I had been single for about two years, which to me felt like a very long time. I was surprised yet happy to learn he had been single for twice as long!

  • Infantry

    @ J

    INTPs, in contrast, seek to understand everything and everyone. They are often wellsprings of compassion .

    I used to be an INTP pre-red pill. I didn’t automatically pick up on other’s feelings but if I made an effort… wow. I could accurately predict how people were feeling in the moment concurrently with my own feelings. This meant very good things inside a relationship.

    On the other hand I’d go around judging my INTJ friends for their lack of empathy. They’d say ‘You see it like me, you know its not a big deal’ and I’d say ‘I know its trivial but its important to them. You’re judging them and making them feel like crap.’ Fun times.

    The only crap thing about being an INTP is sharing superfluous information that you used to come to a conclusion or decision. People don’t care and it comes off as Sherlock Holmesian humblebragging.

  • Well, I guess I’m weird too! I’m not fond about hearing about Exes either. Also, before I met my bf I had been single for about two years, which to me felt like a very long time. I was surprised yet happy to learn he had been single for twice as long!

    Hubby was single for around a year when we meet. Funny enough when we were dating he told me that at a concert he goes every year a cute girl started to talk to him and he didn’t made any move because of me of course and he tells this never happened to him before it was similar for me after years of loneliness I had more proposals than before, of course most of them knew I had a boyfriend overseas and were looking for some sort of no string arrangement thinking I might be lonely and needed a dick to soothe my loneliness such nobility…. We commented on this “Typical, when you finally find someone other people finally find you attractive” we mostly amused ourselves with the situation knowing that we were done with the dating scene and neither of us had the slightest interest on going back to it, but it was indeed and interest comment on pre-selection. Pity those who only can see the good in others when someone else points it out.

  • Infantry

    @ Hope 522

    I think girls should not collect “orbiters.” Even if she doesn’t think there’s anything between them, having them around is still giving her validation and attention. …. Because I’ve seen the kind of damage it can do, I reserve that level of interaction for my husband only.

    I think this is a good idea and its my ideal once I find a partner. I’m of course willing to drop my orbiters too. I’ve been one of the guys on the outside and seen girls in LTRs come to me for emotional comfort. It shouldn’t be like that and if I was the guy on the inside, I would definitely be uncomfortable with the stimulus she’s seeking outside the relationship.

  • Thrasymachus

    Actually this is a function of feminism invading romance, if you read classical romance (from the 80′s and down and pink romance and latin telenovelas) you will find that most of the leading ladies are virginal, very pretty and nice. But many modern women label the classic ones Mary Sue’s or Manic Pixie Girls as a way to derogate the men’s tastes and added their own “I made mistakes to become the empowered wonderful woman I am now and the perfect man will know it …”fantasy. The bitchy, fat, short, slutty woman that gets with the handsome devoted millionaire doesn’t sell that well anyway, if you take a look at the HUGE best sellers they are more in line with the “ideal woman for men” than the other way around, YMMV.

    I agree that romance novels of the 70’s and 870’s, as well as telenovelas, were/are far less concerned with portraying the Strong Independent WomanTM as heroines. Nevertheless, over the past 10 or fifteen years at least most romance novels published in the English speaking world have moved increasingly in this direction. (Fifty Shades is very much an exception). Moreover, most Romance blogs and websites are emphatically feminist in outlook – the demand is always for a “strong” heroine, defined as one who takes no sh*t from the hero. More traditional heroines are described as doormats, and the novels of the 70’s and 80’s are derided as “old skool.”

    The love triangle was not about competition, FYI. No one I know actually enjoyed it there more hating on Jacob for not learning to understand that he was out of line, hating on Bella for not knowing what to do and hating on Edward for not setting his vampire feet and putting a stop to it. The women that read it as “let’s you and him fight” are just forgetting key plot points for the sake of personal “DRAMA!” , YMMV.

    Love triangles in romance novels basically exist to satisfy what The Blogger Who Shall Not Be Named called the fantasy of endless choice. The focus is very much on a heroine choosing between two eligible, high-status males. In most cases this scenario is a fantasy, because the heroine’s SMV is not especially high. It’s as though Brad Pitt and George Clooney were fighting for the attentions of Ms. Average.

    You almost never see love triangles featuring two women competing for the hero’s attention. In fact, there is a species unique to Romancelandia – the hot alpha male with no romantic or sexual options. This is a relatively recent development – twenty years or so ago both the Other Man and the Other Woman were featured prominently. The latter has now virtually disappeared, although the psycho ex-wife/girlfriend/mistress may appear occasionally.

    I watched the film ‘John Carter’ a few months ago (yeah, well, it was a visual spectacular) and then read the first 1 and a bit of the original books (much poorer writing, really pretty bad). Dejah Thoris, Princess of Mars, in the film is a full on kick-arse female warrior princess hacking down creatures multiple times her size (yougogrrrill), in the book stunningly gorgeous SAHP (Stay At Home Princess). Now I don’t see that that sort of film ever being a chick flick, but they still had to ram home the 90lb woman being equal to every 220lb man (except Earth man John Carter Southern Gennleman). If even 100 year old crap SciFi isn’t sacred, what is?

    Sadly, this is now the norm rather than the exception in action/scifi films, TV shows and novels. The kickass heroine can be fun if she is depicted well – think of Diana Rigg in The Avengers or Sigourney Weaver in the Alien movies – but all too often the plot and characterization are so implausible that they verge on the ludicrous.

  • Infantry

    @ Dan 586

    The first level, you learn about people from what they say.

    In Red Pill Land you learn about people from what they do.

    And on the next level you start to learn about people from who they are.

    Yes. Not many people talk about how things are years after taking the red pill because its still quite new to most people. It’s been 4 years for me and I’ve been through the bitterness, cynicism and finally acceptance. I’ve got a lot more tolerance for women ‘lying’ or otherwise objectively being immoral because I see their motivations. The INTP in me again.

  • Infantry

    @ Emily

    In theory, I’m not against guys “spinning plates” as long as there’s no dishonesty involved. But also I think that I would be very hurt if a guy was to kiss me one day and then have sex with somebody else the next. If that strategy works then for you then great, but I don’t think I would have what it takes to date a “spinner”.

    Lets say in theory I met a wonderful quality girl while spinning plates. She had the DTR talk early, pre sex. I would consider it presumptuous.

    That said if she was a quality girl I would expect some serious emotional escalation on her part for me to give up my plates. Again the monogamy commitment pre-sex is great for girls, but not for guys. I would want some serious statements of intent from her that she wanted to take this further. I would need to feel that she was emotionally available for bonding and I was almost 100% sure there was no one else in her life (orbiters included).

    I’d let her know what my expectations were and if she couldn’t meet them I would tell her that I wasn’t ready for that commitment. It would be up to her to leave or stay, but she would know my concerns so it wouldn’t come off as ‘he’s a player that is commitment phobic’.

    Previous posters have talked about the girls hanging around briefly once they find out their guy is plate spinning to ‘see if they have a chance’. That window is probably where the girl should be emotionally escalating to get the guy to lock it down.

    Girls should understand the emotional risks that guys face too. I know in a perfect world all men will be non-needy while in a 6 month dry patch with no other girls in their lives and be instantly available for commitment whenever the girl decides she is ready. This is not the world we are living in and you can’t expect guys to suppress their own interests so you can have a 100% risk free dating experience. Such suppression would be supplication and unattractive anyway.

    • @Infantry

      This is not the world we are living in and you can’t expect guys to suppress their own interests so you can have a 100% risk free dating experience. Such suppression would be supplication and unattractive anyway.

      Agreed. Not only that, but the risk is part of the rush. It propels the early stages of romantic involvement, including a preoccupation with the other person, even to the point of mild obsession (Helen Fisher).

      I don’t think women are asking men to lay their cards out on the table and offer commitment up front. I’ve said many times that women want to earn affection and respect, and if they don’t, they cannot respect or desire the man. He has set the bar too low by committing too early.

      In which case concealment (or even pretending concealment when there really isn’t anyone else!) is really just another way of instilling dread. From a strategic standpoint, I would think being open about one’s options would be more effective.

  • Nevertheless, over the past 10 or fifteen years at least most romance novels published in the English speaking world have moved increasingly in this direction. (Fifty Shades is very much an exception). Moreover, most Romance blogs and websites are emphatically feminist in outlook – the demand is always for a “strong” heroine, defined as one who takes no sh*t from the hero. More traditional heroines are described as doormats, and the novels of the 70′s and 80′s are derided as “old skool.”

    Grerp has an article complaining about how she cannot buy the new bitchy, ugly leads with handsome millionaires that want nothing but support their careers and never want children or go their own way. I will say aside from Twilight I have a hard time getting passionate about a romances anymore, specially with how much cheating and bed hopping is done by the leading lady and now they are moving onto my next love that is fairytales, next time we will have sleeping beauty sleeping with half the town or something like it…so yeah. I must mention that 50 shades and Twilight are exceptions that had sold more than any of this “strong heroineTM” combined and had spurred a lot of passion in merchandise and crazyness, unlike other more “empowered” heroines. I think there is a lot of “I want this because is PC” more than “I want this because I love it!”, YMMV. And I’m sorry I’m too poor to buy things I don’t love so they are not making a lot of business with me at least. I will say internationally speaking there is a lot more love for the “sweet heroines” but that is slowly changing at different degrees.

    Love triangles in romance novels basically exist to satisfy what The Blogger Who Shall Not Be Named called the fantasy of endless choice. The focus is very much on a heroine choosing between two eligible, high-status males. In most cases this scenario is a fantasy, because the heroine’s SMV is not especially high. It’s as though Brad Pitt and George Clooney were fighting for the attentions of Ms. Average.

    True but again this depends on how is done in Twilight there was no doubt that Bella loved Edward and never though on not choosing him and Jacob was wasting his wolftime, thus there was a lot more hate for the situation than any choice, at least in the way is presented. In fact some people criticizes SMeyer for making it so one sided and not adding a proper love triangle to the story. I particularly would had quit the series if there was any real love triangle going on since I despise them. I tolerated it because it lasted all but 5 pages and it was more about everyone making Bella feel like a bitch for not accepting Jacob instead of Edward and no one telling her “well it will be better for Jacob if you just stop talking to him no matter what your father, your mother and himself say” so yeah…
    I think True Blood and Vampires Diaries are like this more with the “choice of two Alpha men” but then I don’t read/watch those shows for that very same reason.

    You almost never see love triangles featuring two women competing for the hero’s attention. In fact, there is a species unique to Romancelandia – the hot alpha male with no romantic or sexual options. This is a relatively recent development – twenty years or so ago both the Other Man and the Other Woman were featured prominently.

    That one is another part I don’t get much. I can buy it if properly explained, like in Twilight, but is true, in most traditional romances the leading man had at least two other women interested: The villainess doing all she could to destroy the relationship and then someone almost as good as the heroine not good enough of course. The heroine had a similar set of suitors the villain (usually teaming out with the villainess) and an almost perfect one. Again the idea was to sort of test their love so it doesn’t look like they just are together for no reason at all and to add to the tension, because is easy to see that once they know how bad the other suitors are they will be back to each other arms but if the guy and girl are almost as good you can actually see how they could end up with other people. Again all this is lost, like you mention.
    I do want to point out that his is another proof that women don’t want to share a man not even in fantasy. We had this discussion about how even if she wants to compete with other women she wants to win, even the feminists that might be accepting the harem girl status, long for getting the man for themselves.
    I will also mention that the only popular triangle with a male in the center is Archie comics, but they predate the sex revolution so is probably okay because they are classics and they have a gay character now, that should keep the PC crowd silent for a day or two.

  • Mike C

    That said if she was a quality girl I would expect some serious emotional escalation on her part for me to give up my plates. Again the monogamy commitment pre-sex is great for girls, but not for guys. I would want some serious statements of intent from her that she wanted to take this further. I would need to feel that she was emotionally available for bonding and I was almost 100% sure there was no one else in her life (orbiters included).

    I’d let her know what my expectations were and if she couldn’t meet them I would tell her that I wasn’t ready for that commitment. It would be up to her to leave or stay, but she would know my concerns so it wouldn’t come off as ‘he’s a player that is commitment phobic’.

    Previous posters have talked about the girls hanging around briefly once they find out their guy is plate spinning to ‘see if they have a chance’. That window is probably where the girl should be emotionally escalating to get the guy to lock it down.

    Girls should understand the emotional risks that guys face too. I know in a perfect world all men will be non-needy while in a 6 month dry patch with no other girls in their lives and be instantly available for commitment whenever the girl decides she is ready. This is not the world we are living in and you can’t expect guys to suppress their own interests so you can have a 100% risk free dating experience. Such suppression would be supplication and unattractive anyway.

    Infantry, +100,000,000. Perfectly stated. The key here is if a woman really likes a guy and really wants him to be exclusively monogamous with her, then she needs to step up and remove any doubt or uncertainty from his mind that he is making the wrong move, especially if he is going to cut off any contact in whatever shape or form with other women.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    I love the musical chairs analogy, it’s perfect. I once infuriated a bunch of feminists with it.

    Don’t know about everyone else, but I’d love to hear more about this!

    Sounds like fun.

  • Infantry

    @ Mike C

    The key here is if a woman really likes a guy and really wants him to be exclusively monogamous with her, then she needs to step up and remove any doubt or uncertainty from his mind that he is making the wrong move, especially if he is going to cut off any contact in whatever shape or form with other women

    Yes. I’m not saying this stuff to get women offside either. If anything the message should be ‘Yes, you can get a plate spinner to quickly lock it down with you. You just need to be both good enough for him and be able to show him that you’re willing to put your money where your mouth is’.

    The ‘lock down a player’ fantasies I’ve heard about (from the player side mind you) only happen with a high quality girl and one who is willing to state her expectations and respond to his in kind.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    I’ve been wondering why it takes so much time for people to become exclusive. If you’re open to a relationship, and you meet someone great and compatible, why not put others on hold while exploring and nurturing that?

    In my mind, it’s impossible to tell if you’re compatible with someone until at least a month or two into the process. “Let’s be exclusive and see where this goes” is just as dumb for guys as “Let’s start having sex and see where this goes” is for girls. You seem to want guys to get rid of their trump card early in the process, while advising girls to hang on to theirs’ as long as possible.

    I’m not just going to give away my exclusive commitment by default, a girl has to pass all the tests and earn it, and that takes time.

    You’ve got your “abundance mentality” in place – why not pursue something worthwhile with focus? Becoming exclusive means nothing more than, “I like you, and I don’t like anyone else.” You don’t even have to share that if you think it will be a DLV – just keep your dick dry while figuring out if this is the real deal. Why is this concept unreasonable? If you’re so interested in variety, why even consider the LTR?

    What if the guy does in fact like other girls, and is trying to figure out which, if any, are ultimately worthy of a committed and compatible LTR down the road?

    • @Jimmy

      You seem to want guys to get rid of their trump card early in the process, while advising girls to hang on to theirs’ as long as possible.

      I’m not just going to give away my exclusive commitment by default, a girl has to pass all the tests and earn it, and that takes time.

      OK, that’s entirely reasonable. So why not tell her that? I’m not asking guys to give away their trump card, I’m asking them to take responsibility for their actions by stating their requirements up front. It seems like the least people can do when sex is involved.

      What if the guy does in fact like other girls, and is trying to figure out which, if any, are ultimately worthy of a committed and compatible LTR down the road?

      As others have said, I think plenty of women are happy to audition for the role. Many will probably want to bring out their bag of sexual tricks to further their cause.

      Not all will, though. I wouldn’t, and I would advise any woman to avoid dating a man who is currently sexually active with someone else. It puts a lot of pressure on her to have high-risk sex very early.

      I’m getting the sense that guys want the opportunity to alternate between good boy and bad boy depending on the girl. We all have the right to judge others’ character before getting involved via sex or commitment. Hiding any aspect of your character is unethical.

  • Mireille

    @Jimmy

    I see your Pov but “down the road” usually turns into a slippery slope. It starts with let’s just hang out, then you want to know they kiss, and finally it becomes let’s if we’re sexually compatible. Down the road, you slept with 2 women and god knows if that got you closer to a decision. And seriously, some guys get caught up in the abundance of attention and “forget” what is the task at hand. Maybe you’re better at such maneuvers, I don’t know.

  • Jackie

    @Iggles (#592)
    “@ Michael:

    No. I look more like Edward Maya, the Romanian Musician.

    Are you aware that when you google that name this is photo that comes up?

    http://syedelin.blogbloc.com/uploads/edward_maya_2009_04.jpg

    I did a double take before clicking on the images tab :lol;”

    Hee hee! 😀 Is there something Michael hasn’t been telling us?

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Mirelle
    Well if the guy’s happy with the current situation, then he’s in no way obligated to make a decision.

    On the other side, both girls are willingly making a choice to have sex before commitment. They know the risks involved.

  • Jackie

    Miss Royale (#593)
    “I think I have arrived at stage three as a non-active religious pluralist.”

    I know this is off-topic, but I would love to hear what this means.
    /ecumenical nerd

  • Jackie

    Re Infantry:

    You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.

    Agreed, you’re a great addition! You and Tasmin conversing are awesome too.
    =======
    Co-signed! Definitely enjoying their posts, very much 😀

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “I have to read a bunch of BS from a lot of guys here, especially that Abbott guy, about how women are just plain evil.

    People who spin plates belong in circuses.

    That Mireille is really a pistol.”
    =====
    Susan, have you ever seen “Titanic”? It came back in theatres earlier this year. ‘Cause when you said that, it reminded me of the scene where Rose’s fiance is being a jerk and she tells him off. Anyway, someone (Kathy Bates?)
    says, She’s a pistol, Cal!

    That’s what your comment about Miss Mireille reminded me of. 🙂

    • @Jackie

      Anyway, someone (Kathy Bates?)
      says, She’s a pistol, Cal!

      Haha, yeah, I do remember that scene! In fact, I’ve been using that expression for a few years, and that’s probably where I picked it up. I loved that movie. It’s the last movie where Leonardo was still a boy.

  • To give a quick example of “commitment” and why it should be expensive: I took a tactical shooting course a few years ago that was run by some guys who had worked on high-risk PSD (bodyguard) details guarding VIP dignitaries in Iraq (Bremer) and Afghanistan (Karzai). One of the intentions of the program was to take tactics, techniques, and procedures from the private security contractor world and apply it to self-defense situations at home.

    Many of the drills had the man (student) training to do whatever it took to put his body between the threat and his wife/GF and children. We’d go after that threat aggressively and try to kill it, of course, but there was no illusion that this situation would always be survivable for us. We were there to absorb violence and to die if necessary so that our loved ones could survive, and this was meant to be trained in to the point that there was no hesitation if and when that terrible day ever came.

    When men talk about “LTRs” and “commitment”, we are normally not scaling to some fond domestic “helpmate” fantasy about shopping at Restoration Hardware together, cuddling on the couch, or talking to each other about how Lisa is a bitch for not sending in her RSVP on time. All of those everyday activities are valuable and practical, of course, but IME *good* men tend to also scale to very primal, hypothetical extremes and to think about the lengths that they would go to in hellish emergency situations to protect their families. Boys used to be raised to see this as a defining part of being real men, but maybe that’s fallen out of fashion now.

    • @Bastiat

      IME *good* men tend to also scale to very primal, hypothetical extremes and to think about the lengths that they would go to in hellish emergency situations to protect their families.

      Is this true? Because that’s such an important thing for women to understand! I have never thought of this before. While I don’t think my husband would be caught dead at Restoration Hardware, neither did I suspect he was entertaining such primal instincts. I will say he is very much invested in his role as a provider though, and my contribution to family income has never affected that.

  • Infantry

    You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.

    Agreed, you’re a great addition! You and Tasmin conversing are awesome too.
    =======
    Co-signed! Definitely enjoying their posts, very much 😀

    Nice to hear. Cheers.

  • Zac

    “1. When one person is neat and one person is messy, the messy person should do all the compromising.”

    I absolutely agree with this, as the neat person lol.

  • Jackie

    “Infantry, are you a new commenter? You like Bellita? She is still single, I believe.

    I have a lot of respect for her. She’s put her money where her mouth is and is actively working on developing her femininity. If more girls did what she did then there would be a lot more marriage material girls out there. It would put poor Roosh out of business.”
    =======
    I, too, admire Bellita greatly and learn a lot from her posts. I would love to see a revolution of like-minded girls change the face of the SMP!

    By the way, has anyone seen her around? She closed down her blog 🙁 I hope she’s OK. She’s so inspiring and had so many great insights. I miss seeing her posts *heaps*. 🙁

  • J

    I used to be an INTP pre-red pill. I didn’t automatically pick up on other’s feelings but if I made an effort… wow.

    Yeah, I think it’s work for us because we aren’t naturally empathetic or big feelers ourselves, but the combination of analysis and the striving to understand rather than judge makes INTPs very good amateur shrinks.

  • J

    @Ana

    So yeah in my case is “enabling, being understanding of our weaknesses = bad. Shaming, telling people that just because something is hard doesn’t mean doesn’t need to get done = good” Being there done that.
    I wish we could find a middle ground though

    The middle ground is judging actions, not people, and differentiating between guilt (based on what someone did) and shame (based on who someone is). For example, a few months ago, my younger son commited a major screw up and felt ashamed for being stupid. When we discussed it, I emphasized that he had done and extraordinarily stupid thing, but that it was out of character for him and that he himself is not stupid or shameful.
    That sort of response doesn’t enable bad behavior, but also doesn’t create paralyzing shame.

  • That sort of response doesn’t enable bad behavior, but also doesn’t create paralyzing shame.

    I happen to agree with this approach…any idea how to make this widespread for people at large with an ID that says that they can do whatever they want to and sadly most of the time they do?

  • I, too, admire Bellita greatly and learn a lot from her posts. I would love to see a revolution of like-minded girls change the face of the SMP!

    I know you are single now but Infantry saw Bellita first…no poaching at HUS! :p

  • Michael

    ”I did a double take before clicking on the images tab :lol;”

    Ahaha, I’d be a pretty hot chick If I was a woman and I looked like that.

    This is Maya(for the ones who haven’t googled him);

    http://newziqa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Edward_Maya_1.jpg

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Infantry
    Just wanted to say you’re showing a lot of wisdom here. I especially agree with:

    If she was a quality girl I would expect some serious emotional escalation on her part for me to give up my plates. Again the monogamy commitment pre-sex is great for girls, but not for guys. I would want some serious statements of intent from her that she wanted to take this further. I would need to feel that she was emotionally available for bonding and I was almost 100% sure there was no one else in her life (orbiters included).

    This is not the world we are living in and you can’t expect guys to suppress their own interests so you can have a 100% risk free dating experience. Such suppression would be supplication and unattractive anyway.

  • Infantry

    @ Jimmy

    Thanks Mate. I’ve been lurking here for ages and I’ve got a lot of respect for you because you are good at dispensing red pill knowledge and backing the interest of males in a non-inflammatory way. We do have agendas that differ from girls’ and it sometimes gets lost on female centric sites like this one.

    It benefits no-one if women forget that if men aren’t getting their needs met they won’t engage for relationships. But its easy for girls to ignore the message if they don’t like how its delivered.

    Re: Dropping the plates, I agree with you about guys needing to hold onto their commitment card for as long as it takes for them to feel that they are trading it in for something worthwhile.

    A quality girl being able to get a guy to commit quickly (or even pre-sex) when he has options via emotional escalation is running fast seduction girl game(heh the irony). In a way she’s building comfort, and often promising the sexy-time in the very near future.

    Guys need to run their screening to judge her quality and intentions successfully or he could suffer the emotional fallout of starting from scratch with his prospects. Quality girls shouldn’t worry about being discounted by screening if they’re intentions are pure and they will deliver on what they promise.

    • Guys need to run their screening to judge her quality and intentions successfully or he could suffer the emotional fallout of starting from scratch with his prospects. Quality girls shouldn’t worry about being discounted by screening if they’re intentions are pure and they will deliver on what they promise.

      Cosign. That’s what the emotional escalation post is about – doing that is the woman’s job, and if she isn’t good at it, she shouldn’t expect a positive response. I would love nothing more than to see men disqualify women on this basis. Very often the women who would be good at this see a guy get snapped up by some slutty type before they ever get the chance.

  • Ramble

    Perhaps there should be more activism by SMP-disgusted women targeting this side of the equation.

    Bastiat, I have been preaching this for a while.

  • Ramble

    It is the old, “There are no real Nice Guys (TM), so i might as well fuck Alphas” logic.

    No, it’s saying that if betas are going to be assholes, they have no advantage over Alphas after all.

    Susan, I am telling you, what you just said right here is no different then what they say at Feministing. Well, the only minor difference is that they find a way to see all betas as frauds.

    Personally, it does not bother me either way. Mirielle, or anyone else, should pursue those that they find most desirable, but, I am telling you, applauding that one statement is to applaud the same logic used at Feministing.

  • M3

    Susan 624

    It sure is. It’s like wearing a sexy outfit in the neighborhood when a rapist is loose or going up to a bedroom at a frat house during a party. We all have a responsibility to protect ourselves by staying out of harm’s way or at least not looking for trouble. Of course, that doesn’t make rape OK. The intent of the perp remains the central issue.

    And the SLUTWALK harpies shall descend upon ye with great vengeance and furious anger in
    3
    2
    1

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Not all will, though. I wouldn’t, and I would advise any woman to avoid dating a man who is currently sexually active with someone else. It puts a lot of pressure on her to have high-risk sex very early.

    I don’t have any issue with that. In fact, I would say the the exact same thing to any girl who asked my advice. It’s definitely in her best interest not to play that game.

    But, as we’ve repeated here hundreds of times, what’s good strategy for one sex usually isn’t good strategy for the other under sex the combat dating model we have today. So I maintain that it absolutely is in a guy’s best interest to spin plates until he’s decided to become exclusive with one girl.

    This:

    So why not tell her that? I’m not asking guys to give away their trump card, I’m asking them to take responsibility for their actions by stating their requirements up front. It seems like the least people can do when sex is involved.

    Doesn’t really square with this:

    Not only that, but the risk is part of the rush. It propels the early stages of romantic involvement, including a preoccupation with the other person, even to the point of mild obsession (Helen Fisher).

    You know as well as I do that direct communication is suicide in today’s SMP. Girls don’t respond well at all to directly stated intentions. They want to speculate about them to their girlfriends. They want a touch of mystery and aloofness. They, as you said, want to win you over to the point of mild obsession.

    Essentially, direct communication from a guy in the early stages, unless it communicates “I want to fuck you”, is extremely unsexy.

    If direct communication worked guys wouldn’t need game, and all the betas of the world would be married by 25. But that’s not the world we live in.

    • @Jimmy

      Essentially, direct communication from a guy in the early stages, unless it communicates “I want to fuck you”, is extremely unsexy.

      OK, but doesn’t he benefit from her knowledge that other women want him? I would think revealing that would help his cause, not hurt it. Of course, this depends on being able to read the woman accurately. I think we would all agree that some women would tingle hypergamously while others would avoid someone they now consider a player. So a man’s hiding that information is a way of hedging his bets, it seems to me. Understandable, as you pointed out yesterday – incentives drive behavior. But there is an ethical price to pay for that.

      I also mentioned yesterday that I know some guys work hard to give the impression of options even when there aren’t any. If a woman asks a guy if he’s seeing anyone else, he may be tempted to say yes even if it’s not true. Again, understandable but still a lie. In that case I would recommend the guy (or girl) say, “Not at the moment, but I reserve the right to.”

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Susan
    And again, I could logically take your “take responsibility” argument and turn it into:

    So why not tell him your number? I’m not asking girls to give away their trump card, I’m asking them to take responsibility for their actions by stating their number up front. It seems like the least people can do when commitment is involved.

    • So why not tell him your number? I’m not asking girls to give away their trump card, I’m asking them to take responsibility for their actions by stating their number up front. It seems like the least people can do when commitment is involved.

      Because preselection doesn’t apply to women. I’m not saying women should conceal their number, I’m simply observing they have less incentive to publicize it up front. Unless it’s low, in which case getting that point across is very good strategy. I’ve known some young women who find ways to make this very clear within a few dates.

      No one is required to volunteer information, but may choose to do so.

      Everyone is required not to actively conceal or falsify information.

  • Ted D

    Bestiat Blogger – “but IME *good* men tend to also scale to very primal, hypothetical extremes and to think about the lengths that they would go to in hellish emergency situations to protect their families. Boys used to be raised to see this as a defining part of being real men, but maybe that’s fallen out of fashion now.”

    Yes this! This is exactly the kind of stuff going through my head at the moment I’m deciding to go the distance or walk out of a relationship. Can I see myself taking a bullet for this woman? Is she likely to get my ass beat up mouthing off to other guys? Will she back me up IF things ever get nasty. (and by “back me up” I mean do as I say without question, NOT jump into the fight). I am doing my best to instill this concept in my boys as well, but to be honest its DAMN HARD in a world where even common chivalry is seen as an attack on women’s independence.

    The very real bottom line for me when it comes to choosing a mate is: Would I willingly put myself in harms way for this woman? If I can’t answer with a resounding and unflinching YES, then there is no hope for the relationship.

  • Infantry

    @ Susan

    In which case concealment (or even pretending concealment when there really isn’t anyone else!) is really just another way of instilling dread. From a strategic standpoint, I would think being open about one’s options would be more effective.

    I would consider concealment just good manners. Just as many guys won’t immediately ask a girl’s N or all of the sexual acts she’s done, I suspect a girl wouldn’t want to know about the other options a guy has.

    Now, leaving a bra lying on your floor or telling a girl that she can’t come over that night because you were having ‘a friend’ over for dinner and dvds is a different story. That’s dread.

    I think intentions are very important and I like to think women are good at reading them. In actualityin the SMP there are guys with different agendas and girls fall for the wrong guys. Not all guys are screening for LTR candidates. Some are quite willing to say whatever it takes to get a girl in the sack.

    I really don’t think everyone is going to develop a fail safe process for picking the right guy. There is no ‘if you do this you’ll be ok’. For most of us we’ll need experience, and to get that we have to fail.

    • @Infantry

      I would consider concealment just good manners.

      -1 🙁

      You’re on shaky ground there my friend.

      None of us gets to decide what information another person should have.

      I think intentions are very important and I like to think women are good at reading them.

      Reading them is very difficult when they are deliberate hidden from view (concealment) or presented as something other than what they really are (falsification). It’s a dangerous and slippery slope to hold people morally accountable for having been deceived. That said, yes of course it makes sense to be cautious. But that doesn’t change the moral question.

  • Susan, from your description of Mr. HUS I feel confident in saying that he is fully prepared to die for his family if it was, God forbid, ever necessary, and on some deep level he knew this when he proposed to you.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Is this true? ”

    I can say that at least some of my male friends feel exactly the same way as BB and I stated, so it is true for at least a subset of men. And I’ll even go a little further and say that as BB described the self defense training, I mentally “train” myself for this in case it ever comes up. From time to time when we are out in public, I will imagine scenarios (for instance if I see a shady guy walking towards us, I’ll imagine what I would do if he pulled a knife and attempted to mug us) and plan my course of action out. It serves two purposes for me.
    1. It teaches me to quickly evaluate a situation and come up with a plan.
    2. It removes hesitation and doubt from the mix.

    In short, the idea is to train myself to react, not think. For me this is a very difficult task, because as you see here, I tend to over think just about everything. So to be effective at defense, I have to constantly work at NOT thinking so much. Thankfully I’ve never had to take a bullet for anyone, but the few times I’ve found myself in an emergency situation, I’m proud of how I reacted in spite of my usual desire to “think things through”. I honestly believe that my silly scenario training helps. I’ve also taken several self defense type classes, and been involved in severe weather spotting and emergency preparedness.

    I’m only one or two conspiracy theories away from joining a militia. 😛

  • Infantry

    Is this true?

    Boys know from a young age that they may have to put themselves in harms way to protect their woman. Its unspoken, but you can see its influence in everyday life.

    Have you ever wondered why men will give way on the footpath (sidewalk?) to couples strolling together? Its part respect and part knowing that you don’t mess with a guy’s woman. The most timid effeminate man will act unpredictably if you threaten his family.

    I can’t believe women don’t know about this.

    As an aside it shows how reprehensible the behaviour is of the girl who perverts this trait and pulls the ‘lets you and him fight’ in clubs by giving IOIs to other men so their boyfriend can ‘prove’ how much he cares.

    In my country there’s a term for this; blood slut.

  • Ted D

    “In my country there’s a term for this; blood slut.”

    I LOVE this term! I’ve known a few of these women, and they ALWAYS start nasty shit. Some of the worst beatings I’ve ever witnessed in my life were started by a “blood slut” in a club.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Susan, You mentioned women being hardwired to spot attractors and to form monogamous–if serial–pair bonds because if you share men, the babies don’t survive.
    If you push evpsych far enough, you’ll get to lions. Whose new male in the pride kills the cubs. Two results. The lionesses,no longer nursing, come into heat and th efforts he puts forth are now to promote his, not his predecessor’s, genes.
    Since human females are constantly receptive, the first doesn’t apply, but the second may.
    In addition, see my earlier comments about women being less numerous than men in prehistoric or prehuman groups due to female infanticide, and men being far more likely to have the high T traits of aggressiveness, violence, and promiscuity. (search for finger length ratio, testosterone).
    IOW, not much room for women to “choose” a mate.
    Still, I’ve been the subject of IOIs when in difficult situations. I figure the uterus says to the brain, “Find us somebody who can take care of buisness and we’ll worry about table manners later.” And, sure enough, when the difficulties were over, so were the IOI.
    I’m not against evpsych, but if you’re going there, you have to go all the way and perhaps not all the current conclusions can stand up to that.

    • @Richard Aubrey

      If you push evpsych far enough, you’ll get to lions.

      In the human evo tree?

  • Infantry

    You’re on shaky ground there my friend.

    None of us gets to decide what information another person should have.

    I’ll have to respectfully disagree here. At least in this case. Lying is bad obviously. If I’m asked a direct question though, I will answer truthfully.

    What I won’t do is volunteer information that will ruin the vibe and be the equivalent of throwing things in a girl’s face or instigating dread. I won’t meet a girl and say ‘oh btw I have a date with another girl tomorrow. Just so you know.’ It doesn’t feel appropriate and will interfere with us getting close.

    That’s what I mean by concealment. Not hiding the fact that your running a 5 girl harem and have no intention of settling down with platitudes like “I don’t believe people should tie themselves down you know?”

    • @Infantry

      I won’t meet a girl and say ‘oh btw I have a date with another girl tomorrow. Just so you know.’ It doesn’t feel appropriate and will interfere with us getting close.

      That’s what I mean by concealment.

      OK, I’m with you now. Just to be clear, I am not advocating that men show their hand early. There is no reason you are in any way obligated to keep a woman informed of all your dates. In fact, she’d probably call you a creeper if you did that. She’d be saying, “Whoa! Pump the brakes!”

      Really, this came about because we got talking about spinning plates – and I offered a quote that suggested the practice is generally about f*cking as many women as possible concurrently, with the ostensible purpose of preventing oneitis.

      I have no problem with either sex cultivating a mentality of abundance. Until you’re off the market, you’re on the market. I get that. That can and should be done in an honorable way and should not necessitate lying to anyone.

  • J

    @Ana

    I happen to agree with this approach…any idea how to make this widespread for people at large with an ID that says that they can do whatever they want to and sadly most of the time they do?

    For starters, every time someone says”Let’s shame the sluts/cads,” we can raise the level of discourse by saying, “No, let’s drop the ad hom crap and address the behaviors instead.” We can also educate people about the unanticipated consequences of their behaviors. For example, smoking rates have dropped significantly because most people have been aware since childhood that smoking causes canser, heart disease, etc. Young women need to know that fertility begins to decline at 27 with a huge decline after 35. They need to know that STIs compromise fertility and that, since men ejaculate into them, as oposed to vice-versa, they are at a much higher risk than men. They need to now what percentage of hook-ups actually turn into relationships, as do young men. Men need to know that althought they can potentially father healthy kids at 80, they probably won’t. They need to understand that low sperm count and quality, male infertility and many defects are associated with paternal age. They need to realize that they can spread STIs more easily than women.

    If you give people the facts in a dispassionate way, most people will eventually adjust their behavior. It’s a slow process and less emotionally satisfying than shaming, but in the long run it’s more effective.

  • J

    Love triangles in romance novels basically exist to satisfy what The Blogger Who Shall Not Be Named called the fantasy of endless choice. The focus is very much on a heroine choosing between two eligible, high-status males. …..You almost never see love triangles featuring two women competing for the hero’s attention.

    On the other hand, you also never see the soft harem of partners that can be called on from out of the blue for NSA sex that you see in a James Bond movie. Men have a fantasy of endless variety that most can’t achieve…and you never see male oriented literature focusing on men vying for a place in woman’s soft harem. Men and women have different, but equally unreasonable fantasies.

  • Bastiat Blogger and Infantry, I’m not that trained in the use of firearms, but you bet I would use them to protect my family! I’d also take a bullet for my husband and our baby.

    I also love how protective my husband is. I’m not nearly as strong, but I do have similar instincts. In video games I try very hard to keep him alive as a healer.

  • Iggles

    @ Infantry:

    Re: Dropping the plates, I agree with you about guys needing to hold onto their commitment card for as long as it takes for them to feel that they are trading it in for something worthwhile.

    I have no problem with this. It good advice for both genders – girls should continue talking to other guys until she’s certain that she wants to escalate with one particular guy.

    A quality girl being able to get a guy to commit quickly (or even pre-sex) when he has options via emotional escalation is running fast seduction girl game(heh the irony). In a way she’s building comfort, and often promising the sexy-time in the very near future.

    Guys need to run their screening to judge her quality and intentions successfully or he could suffer the emotional fallout of starting from scratch with his prospects. Quality girls shouldn’t worry about being discounted by screening if they’re intentions are pure and they will deliver on what they promise.

    +1

    Again, although you’re advising this for guys I think in regards to screening potential partners, both genders need to focus on quality more than “getting a boyfriend/girlfriend” or beating out the competition for someone “hot”.

  • Thrasymachus

    On the other hand, you also never see the soft harem of partners that can be called on from out of the blue for NSA sex that you see in a James Bond movie. Men have a fantasy of endless variety that most can’t achieve…and you never see male oriented literature focusing on men vying for a place in woman’s soft harem. Men and women have different, but equally unreasonable fantasies.

    In the real world polyandry (marriage/LTR between one woman and several men), whether legal or informal, is extremely rare and is usually the result of specific resource constraints. The number of societies that have ever practiced polyandry can probably be counted on the fingers of two hands. Polygyny (marriage/LTR between one man and several women) is extremely common, and by some calculations it has been the most widely adopted form of marriage in human societies. Polygamy, which covers both polyandry and polygyny, is now almost universally understood to mean the latter because the former is so rare.

    These facts are relevant in terms of assessing the plausibility of various fantasies. It is true that most men are unlikely to be able to maintain a soft harem for any length of time. But some of them (rock stars, sports figures and the like) are clearly successful in doing so, and the women involved are sometimes very attractive. Hugh Hefner, who is in his 80’s, still manages to keep a harem of Playmates. (Viagra has a lot to answer for). On the other hand, there are virtually NO alpha males who would be content to be part of a male harem. They would almost certainly walk at the slightest hint of that. See, for example, the male responses to this article:

    http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/14/every-woman-needs-a-gaggle-of-men/comment-page-1/#comments

    Yet romance novels are full of love triangles featuring high status men competing for fairly ordinary women. “Menage” in women’s erotica consists of hot alpha men who are desperately and crazily in love with the heroine and would not dream of having sex with anyone else – but are perfectly comfortable with the idea of sharing her with their friends or brothers. Do you know any men like that?

  • Iggles

    @ Infantry:

    Have you ever wondered why men will give way on the footpath (sidewalk?) to couples strolling together? Its part respect and part knowing that you don’t mess with a guy’s woman. The most timid effeminate man will act unpredictably if you threaten his family.

    I can’t believe women don’t know about this.

    You’d be surprised! I’m 27 and I know there’s much I still have to learn about male nature. And it’s amazing how much I learned within the past 2 years alone!

    Women don’t instinctively know these type of things. There’s an even bigger learning curve for women who grew up without brothers and/or without a father figure in her life.

  • Iggles, you can learn a lot reading books written by men. Robert Heinlein for example wrote about this sort of thing a lot. There’s quite a bit of red pill knowledge in science fiction in general, like the Dune series by Frank Herbert. Many young male fantasies tend to involve some kind of noble fighting for a greater purpose, and men generally have the idea that older men will be a lot more dangerous when fighting to protect their families. I didn’t grow up with any fatherly or brotherly influences, but I learned a ton from other guys and delving into their interests.

  • Iggles

    Thanks for the tip, Hope 🙂

    I do like sci fi but seen more movies than reading. I think it’s time to pick up new books at Barnes and Noble 😀 I browsed for a bit on Sunday but didn’t get to buy anything (I was heading to a bbq nearby).

    Anyway, I remember seeing part of “Children Of Dune” on Sci Fi years back, but I never read the books. Think I’m going to check ’em out!

  • In my country there’s a term for this; blood slut.

    Good term. I do think this is more understood in more violent countries were the men around you are seeing on violent situations often enough so you kind of get that they are going to

    If you give people the facts in a dispassionate way, most people will eventually adjust their behavior. It’s a slow process and less emotionally satisfying than shaming, but in the long run it’s more effective.

    I think you are wrong about two important facts:
    1) People don’t act out of rationality but emotionality in a 90% of the times, you can read plenty of studies about it or just look at campaigns for products and politicians they appeal to the emotions 9 times out of 10. The way we discouraged smoking was not out of information but out of making it a “disgusting habit” people are willing to risk their health for cool stuff the information about how bad smoking was was around for a while and you could say the same about many other unhealthy habits like drinking and obesity, it was after the campaign for making it uncool and unsexy, making sure no one on popular media like movies smoke or glorify it and tons of laws to restrict the smokers that caused the change. Info alone only works on the rational people and we agreed that we are far and between.
    2) What about things like the fat acceptance movement, slutwalks, and endless books telling everyone that you have time to have children till after you are 40, or the books that claim that gender differences are construct? or that STD’s should be considered a normal part of the actively sexual person? Even if people were rational there is a huge campaign to never “shame” people with dispassionate information, and you know that people attribute shame to any argument, (if you don’t I advice you to go to Jezebel and share this facts in dispassionate way and get back at me) but “make them feel right” about their choices, there is a lot more people telling the opposite than us with the truth,how do you control for that.
    I think the issue is that what works in the microcosm of your home, doesn’t work at large in society for some of the reasons mentioned above and then some, YMMV.

  • Ted D

    Iggles – “You’d be surprised! I’m 27 and I know there’s much I still have to learn about male nature. And it’s amazing how much I learned within the past 2 years alone!”

    I can say that from my perspective, I kinda assumed that all women knew this point because, well, traditionally being the “protector” was the man’s job. I was raised to believe it was my job/duty to put my life and safety on the line for my wife and children, so I assume that women were raised knowing that their men would protect them. To be honest, I was straight up told by my grandmother that the second I married a woman, I was to make her my priority above all other people, until I had children, and then they came first, her second. Even to the point that my natural family should always play second fiddle to my SO and kids. She told me point blank that if there was ever tension between my wife and my family, that I should always side with my wife, because she was the more important than my birth family.

    So yes, every time I find myself evaluating a woman for a relationship, at some point I’m asking myself if she is worth my life if it comes down to it. Thank God I’ve never been tested on this, but I do my best to try and be prepared in case that test ever comes. I imagine it is very similar to being a Secret Service agent assigned to protect the President. They are expected to literally jump in front of a bullet if necessary. To me, this is simply the logical conclusion of chivalry: to sacrifice my life for the woman I love. Sappy and romantic, I know.

    The sad thing is, in a way, it forces me to put my own life on a lower level than someone else’s, which is just another form of “man oppression” to many in the ‘sphere I imagine. I can’t deny that the entire concept does indeed place the woman (or at least her life) on a pedestal above me by implicating that her life is worth more than mine. I don’t care though, because the way I see it, if the only thing I can do to save her (or my kids) is sacrifice myself, well then it is the price I pay for the people I love. I don’t see it as her life being worth more than mine, I see it as a price I willingly pay to protect what is most valuable to me.

  • J

    Yet romance novels are full of love triangles featuring high status men competing for fairly ordinary women. “Menage” in women’s erotica consists of hot alpha men who are desperately and crazily in love with the heroine and would not dream of having sex with anyone else – but are perfectly comfortable with the idea of sharing her with their friends or brothers. Do you know any men like that?

    No, but I think you are misunderstanding the fantasy (at least in romance novels. I’m not familiar with menage erotica, so I can’t say.). It’s not to keep a soft harem of men going indefinitely. It’s to have her pick of two or more great guys as opposed to grabbing the first guy who asks. The underlaying idea, at least in romance novels, is that the heroine will pick the best guy and live happily ever after. She will be desired and competed for before settling down with the winner.

    OTOH, I’m not a reader of romance novels. Perhaps Ana can comment.

  • J

    In the human evo tree?

    Yes, we are desccended from lions. That’s why spinsters love cats.

    On a more serious note, while all mammals have a common ancester of you look back far enough, this stuff does get ridicuous at the extremes. And remember that the alpha/beta dicotomy came originally from wolf packs, where only the alpha pair breeds, not primates.

    • Yes, we are desccended from lions. That’s why spinsters love cats.

      Haha!

      On a more serious note, while all mammals have a common ancester of you look back far enough, this stuff does get ridicuous at the extremes. And remember that the alpha/beta dicotomy came originally from wolf packs, where only the alpha pair breeds, not primates.

      Oh I know, but it’s caught hold like Intelligent Design.

  • Iggles

    @ Ted D:

    So yes, every time I find myself evaluating a woman for a relationship, at some point I’m asking myself if she is worth my life if it comes down to it.

    That’s a really powerful statement. It makes so much sense that men would think this way regarding their wives/family, but it’s not sometimes I’ve always been consciously aware of.

    Let me put it this way… If/when I have kids of my own I know I would put my life on the line to save theirs in a heartbeat. There are already several people in my life I would do the same for without question. But it’s nothing something I regard on a conscious level idea. If the topic is brought up in conversation (like now) that’s different.

    I hope that I expressed my POV clearly!

  • Michael

    ”ggles, you can learn a lot reading books written by men. Robert Heinlein for example wrote about this sort of thing a lot. There’s quite a bit of red pill knowledge in science fiction in general, like the Dune series by Frank Herbert. Many young male fantasies tend to involve some kind of noble fighting for a greater purpose, and men generally have the idea that older men will be a lot more dangerous when fighting to protect their families. I didn’t grow up with any fatherly or brotherly influences, but I learned a ton from other guys and delving into their interests.”

    Ya man, it totally took me by surprise when I was introduced to the books of Heinlein and Asimov and the red pill was so abundant.

    They sure could get away with a lot of things in their time. What’s strange is that these dudes weren’t players and knew much more about women than most players nowadays do, and man, was I shocked when I was reading ”Dorian Gray” by Oscar Wilde and realized that the dude, despite being gay, had a doctorate in female psychology. My feminist teacher didn’t like it when I told her Dorian Grey was written with the purpose of mocking female shallowness.

  • Michael

    ”That’s a really powerful statement. It makes so much sense that men would think this way regarding their wives/family, but it’s not sometimes I’ve always been consciously aware of.”

    Now that’s something I was lucky enough to be born with. I can understand dying to save your own children, but it doesn’t make any sense to die for a woman. She could be as special as the virgin mary and as hot as Angelina Jolie; My life is far more important than the life of any woman.

    And I figure, men have been protecting women and making sure they have anything they want and need, and look at how hard men have it. Men should enjoy their lives and leave behind the immaturity of destroying one self for the sex that has far more rights and more privileges than us.

    I am an avid consumer of video games but I rather dislike how most of the games have as a purpose the salvation of a girl. Look at Max Payne 3. Dude became a drunk because his wife and son died, got himself involved with another chick in Max Payne 2 and was pursued by the police for the bs he did for the chick, and in max payne 3 the guy comes out of an almost alcohol induced coma to save 2 skanks.

    Give me a break.

  • @Ted (and @Infantry and @Iggles)
    I can say that from my perspective, I kinda assumed that all women knew this point because, well, traditionally being the “protector” was the man’s job. I was raised to believe it was my job/duty to put my life and safety on the line for my wife and children, so I assume that women were raised knowing that their men would protect them.

    Many years ago, I mentioned to a male friend that I had to walk the long way to the store because there was a house being built along my usual route and the construction workers hooted at me.

    My friend: “Take your brother along and nothing will happen.”

    Me: “He’s FIVE years old!”

    My friend: “It doesn’t matter.”

    It didn’t matter. 😛

    • @Bellita

      OMGOMGOMGOMG you’re back! We have missed you!

  • Thrasymachus

    No, but I think you are misunderstanding the fantasy (at least in romance novels. I’m not familiar with menage erotica, so I can’t say.). It’s not to keep a soft harem of men going indefinitely. It’s to have her pick of two or more great guys as opposed to grabbing the first guy who asks. The underlaying idea, at least in romance novels, is that the heroine will pick the best guy and live happily ever after. She will be desired and competed for before settling down with the winner.

    The fantasy of endless choice is not the same as the menage fantasy, but both certainly exist in romantic fiction. They are fantasies precisely because the heroes have much higher SMV rankings than the heroine they are competing over (love triangle) or sharing (menage). It’s as though Brad Pitt and George Clooney were fighting for the attentions of Ms. Average. Not a particularly plausible scenario, IMO.

  • The fantasy of endless choice is not the same as the menage fantasy, but both certainly exist in romantic fiction.

    Yeah but as mentioned before the Menage is another subset of feminist romance “Oh so men can have more than one woman at the time?! I will validate a woman doing the same!” is like Cougar Romances they fill a niche and they are probably going to grow but they will never become widespread or the topic to sell the most. The love triangle always resolve with the “best man winning” most women don’t fantasize about sharing multiple men, YMMV.

  • Iggles

    @ Anacaona:

    The love triangle always resolve with the “best man winning” most women don’t fantasize about sharing multiple men, YMMV.

    +1

    I never desired to have a soft harem of men (yuck). Polyamory doesn’t appeal to me in the slightest. Nor do I yearn for variety (i.e., having to “sample” a certain number of men before considering settling down).

    For as long as I can recall, I’ve always been looking for “one”. One guy to share my life with. That’s it. That’s all I want, need, and crave. I’m not looking to trade up! My boyfriend is an awesome guy and if things work out for us in the long term I will be supremely happy.

    In regard to fiction, I’ve always hated love triangles. The reason is, I think they’re stupid. And often, the hallmark of lazy writing. You could tell a beautiful love story between two people from beginning to end — first meeting/interactions, catching feelings, first kiss, dates, relationship, arguments, etc — without throwing another love interest in the mix!

  • In regard to fiction, I’ve always hated love triangles. The reason is, I think they’re stupid.

    I don’t like then because I don’t buy them. I can see someone in love with someone else feeling attraction for someone else or feeling attracted to several people at the same time, but in love deep delirious love with two people at the same time? I don’t believe it. There is always someone you love for real even in poligamy you have issues like the favorite wife so I really see them as people not knowing themselves or having their cake and eating it too, specially people that are looking to supplement their sex/emotional lives for whatever reason, YMMV.
    Of course I’m pretty sure Ozy and Herb are probably just facepalming themselves thinking I don’t get it, but I just don’t get it.

  • Iggles

    I can see someone in love with someone else feeling attraction for someone else or feeling attracted to several people at the same time, but in love deep delirious love with two people at the same time? I don’t believe it.

    Yeah, I don’t think that’s possible either! Attraction and infatuation is not love.

    Even in Poly situations they have primary and secondary relationships, acknowledges some relationships rank higher than others — even if they’d rather have multiple relationships than just one.

    BTW, in Herb’s situation, it sounds like he’s his girlfriend’s favorite or “primary” partner at the moment.

  • Ted D

    Michael – for me it has less to do with sacrificing my life for a woman, and more to do with simply protecting someone I love that happens to be a woman. I would protect her because she is my mate, not because she is a woman.

  • Iggles

    @Michael:

    You’re far more useful to society than a woman can be, bar her reproduction ability and that, most other women have.

    What a hateful comment! On virtue of him being a man he’s more useful than a woman?

    Do you seriously hear yourself?

    more to do with simply protecting someone I lovethat happens to be a woman

    Seriously Michael, you have issues.

    How do you take a loving comment like that and turn it into so misogynist crap?

    And you missed the main point he was making — you can’t easily replace people you love! That’s like telling parents who lost a child, “Don’t worry, you can make another one.”

    I feel sorry for any woman who gets involved with you, but fortunately until you evolve your thinking I’m sure an woman worth her salt will be able to see right through you!

    Ted D – As it stands, I think society would be better off if there was a lot more people like you. Not because you happened to be born male, but because you’re a decent and honorable person.

  • Iggles

    Of course I’m a ”women-hater” whenever I mention that I belong to the superior sex

    Why did I feed the troll? 🙄

  • Infantry

    @ Bellita

    My friend: “Take your brother along and nothing will happen.”

    Heh, that will do it. Its an intrinsic respect thing. Cat calling you would have been the equivalent of bullying your younger brother.

  • Ted D

    Iggles – Thanks for the kind words, but don’t pump me up too much. At heart I’m just as selfish as the next person.

  • @ Susan: Totally forgot I posted that. Thanks for responding. In response to your response…

    “theMac
    I like that post on the cheating question. I agree that there’s no point in asking it. I didn’t really have that in mind when I wrote the post, but I do think each person will have to define what a significant lie is to them, and whether it must be an outright lie or a lie of omission.
    For example, not mentioning that you have a girlfriend when you ask someone on a date.
    Not mentioning that you are still having drama with your ex even as you enter a new relationship.
    Cheating in the relationship (not a prior one).
    Lying about your whereabouts or who you were with.
    Lying about having an STD.
    Misrepresenting your employment or educational credentials.
    You get the idea. Big stuff.”

    As a veteran of the dating game, I know a lot of those have extremely flexible definitions. For example:
    define girlfriend.
    define drama.
    define cheating. (hell, define relationship)
    define “lying about whereabouts”
    The STD thing I totally agree with.

    And then after you get done defining all of those, realize that someone else is going to have slightly different definitions, and that “slightly different” is where you get into the grey of lying. So if I define it differently than you would, am I lying?

    Also, women flat out reward liars, even if they say they don’t. If it wasn’t true, so many women wouldn’t be yelling about it on their online profiles. However, I understand the aim of this site is to make women aware of their tendencies to do just those sorts of things.

  • Richard Aubrey

    @Richard Aubrey

    If you push evpsych far enough, you’ll get to lions.

    In the human evo tree?

    Susan. If the proponents of a particular view need to, they’ll go to octupiiii. However, as to lions, the presumption is that the same dynamic might apply to hominids. Now, women who are nursing are sexually receptive but their fertility is lowered. Some Aussie abos nurse for three or four years. Whether that’s a matter of best nutritition practices and coincidentally lowers the birth rate to something they can support in that burned land or they have, through tens of millenia, figured out the result and work at it is unknown, at least to me. OTOH, see Ritual Subincision among The Arunta, a favorite of the undergrads. Also lowers birthrate.

    If we’re into hardwiring by evolution, a primate male would “know” in his circuits that nursing females are less likely to promote his brand. In addition, his efforts at controlling the band and protecting them and arranging for food and shelter one way or another do not advance his genes if he’s taking over from another male. So, whether it happened or not, the lion dynamic can be said to be reasonably applicable. About as solid as anything else in evpsych.
    Now, I don’t oppose evpsych. I’m not like feminists who hate it because it implies behaviors can’t be changed by guilt trips and TBTN events. I just think we have no evidence. It may be true, but it can’t be proven. And if it’s true, we don’t know which parts.

  • @Susan

    Thank you for the warm welcome back! I don’t have as much time as I used to for these long threads, but it’s nice to see some of the old “faces” again, too. 🙂

  • Cooper

    @Micheal
    Easy there! Max was beast in 3.