Or: The Importance of Dating, Part II
Happy Friday, HUSies. I promised a post on the important things I learned from dating men before I met my husband. Most importantly, I learned I didn’t want to marry them. I don’t think they wanted to marry me either.
One of the problems with hookup culture is that very few people are getting a chance to do relationships with training wheels. As we saw in the previous post, during the era when people went steady they were essentially “playing house” as a pretend married couple. If and when those relationships ended, both parties walked away with a set of experiences and hopefully, lessons learned. Of course, some people get lucky and meet the love of their lives early on and live happily ever after. But most of us benefit from the opportunity to do a couple of trial runs.
One helpful thing about the current SMP is that red flags are everywhere! Assuming you don’t grow immune to acts of douchebaggery, a young woman can learn a lot about who not to date, just by observing others. She doesn’t even need to make mistakes first hand! When you do date someone who makes it through the character filter, you’ll learn a lot about loving, compromising, resolving conflict and what you need and want in a mate.
Here are the best lessons I learned while seriously dating men I didn’t marry, in no particular order. Yours will be different.
1. When one person is neat and one person is messy, the messy person should do all the compromising.
I used to be messy. My boyfriend was super neat. My messiness drove hms crazy. In contrast, his neatness was always a pleasant surprise to me, like elves had come in during the night and done all the work. I had to become a neat person, it seemed like the right thing to do. My husband is neater than I am, but on a scale of 1-10 I get a solid 7.5 for neatness nowadays.
2. Stoics and emos don’t mix.
I’m on the emo end of the spectrum. I love pillow talk and mushy moments and romantic gestures. And when there’s conflict I want to resolve it quickly by talking it through. I need a man who has emotions and shows them. I can’t make it work with a strong, silent type.
I am also a sucker for glimpses of the boy he once was. I remember one boyfriend broke his arm, and for some reason I thought he looked so hot with that cast. It was like looking at a 7th grade version of him or something. Adorable. I also fall to pieces when I see a guy’s boyhood bedroom.
3. Sexual compatibility is mostly about sex drive.
As long as two people are open to new things and invested in pleasing one another, I think what to do and how to do it are the easy part. The hard part, in my experience is when. We like to joke that guys want sex all the time, but they do vary. Some guys aren’t up for it when they have a lot on their mind. Some guys want it several times a day no matter what, especially early on.
I went to college during an era when the sexes didn’t have much access to one another on campus. Finding a way to have sex could be a challenge. A car was ideal, but if you didn’t have one all sorts of furtive arrangements were required. This meant that having sex once or twice a week was doable, but there were no lazy mornings in bed followed by brunch. It wasn’t until I went to Europe with my boyfriend that I learned that given the opportunity to have sex six times a day, he wasn’t into it. There is nothing worse than climbing into bed for some sexy time and hearing a curt “Good night.” Of course, he thought I was a nymphomaniac. I thought that was a good thing! Our relationship didn’t last long after that trip.
4. You have to laugh at the same stuff.
Most women say that a sense of humor is very important to them in a mate. But there are many kinds of humor, and many different facets of humor. I love sharing the same funny bone. I dated one guy who found The Three Stooges hilarious. I don’t. I dated another who didn’t appreciate John Cleese’s Ministry of Silly Walks. I do. These small bits of incompatibility kill attraction for me.
In a relationship I like a bit of silliness, inside jokes, goofy nicknames, etc. My husband and I trade funny tidbits every day, and have for 30 years. Laughter is the best tension reducer I know, and it’s not unusual for one of us to start laughing even during an argument. Of course, that only happens if the argument is stupid, but it’s a great way to diffuse anger.
For me, another critical element is the ability to laugh at oneself. I believe this is the genius of Larry David, Woody Allen and Lena Dunham. I love people who can do it, and I generally steer clear of people who are unable to do it.
5. 90% of the time eyes tell the story.
If you look into someone’s eyes and read their micro facial expressions, particularly during intimate moments, you will see a map of what they are feeling. If the eyes are dead or cold, the relationship is dead and cold. You should see a softening, a certain kind of lifting at the corners of the mouth, a longing, and a deep, penetrative gaze. Never marry anyone you cannot read this way.
6. One significant lie in a relationship spoils it forever.
Whether it’s cheating, his not being honest about his past, or some other major aspect of his life, if your boyfriend tells you a whopper, he’s just kicked away a chunk of the foundation, and your relationship is unstable. Before marriage, lying should be an immediate and non-negotiable dealbreaker.
7. If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.
If you are dating someone who feels threatened by your behavior or is insecure in your affection, stick a fork in it. You are either out of his league, too demanding of attention from others, or he can sense that you are not nearly as invested as he is. Some of this often comes up in the early days, and it can help to learn what the other person finds threatening. But if this continues over time, the relationship is not tenable. Either (or neither) party may be at fault, but the point is, it’s not a good match.
8. Passions are a must.
I like men who have strong opinions and strong interests. I recall being super turned off that my college bf had no opinion whatsoever about a Presidential election. I love it that my husband has informed views. I also love it that he is very loyal to the Red Sox (going back to a time when they sucked). Here are some of the things I have found sexually attractive in men:
- deep love and abiding passion for grandparents’ summer cabin on a lake
- loyalty to sports teams
- deep and broad knowledge of music
- a firm conviction that The Beatles are the greatest band ever
- watching Godfather and Godfather II a minimum of twice a year
- keeping the Bill James baseball encyclopedia on the night table
- being a Big Brother
- playing chess regularly
- strong interest in reading history
The only way people can be boring is if they don’t have any interests or don’t talk about them. I’ve dated some boring guys.
9. Impulsive acts destabilize relationships.
Some people like to keep things edgy and unpredictable. I am not one of those people. Crazy plans on the spur of the moment are not fun for me. I’m not talking about skinny dipping, I’m talking about calling in sick to work and flying to the Caribbean on a whim for a week. Or buying a new car when you can’t afford it. Or quitting a job because “those people are driving me crazy.” Or any behavior showing a failure to comprehend that credit card spending will have to be dealt with at some future point.
My idea of crazy is a Bloody Mary on a Sunday morning. Don’t pair up with a dopamine chaser if you’re not one yourself.
10. When it’s right, it feels easy.
Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person. If you have doubts, feel angsty, or have a lot of conflict in a relationship, end it. Opposites may attract but research shows they don’t marry well. If you find yourself having fights just to get to the makeup sex, the breakup is long overdue.
You should never, ever walk up the aisle if you don’t feel the urge to run up the aisle instead. You should be chomping at the bit to make your commitment official. One doubt is too many. It goes without saying you should be on the same page re children, including the timing, the number, and how you want to raise them. Never, ever leave a major issue to be negotiated after marriage, and hoping to change someone’s mind after marriage is a fool’s errand.
There will be challenges and crises in every life, including married life. Having a close relationship with your partner helps you weather them together.
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Heh I have to laugh at the Messy/Neat paradigm. My mother is the messy one and daddy is the neat one. My mother started to be neater when the marriage was fresh and we were little, but then slowly mess took over. At this point the house is a huge mess and daddy only has one drawer and a side of the closet organized for himself…I think that one varies per couple.
Also first :p
Let’s get these out of the way:
-Marriage is the greatest scam since organized religion and anyone who claims otherwise is a deluded white-knight/hamster.
-Women will never be able to find a good husband because they killed all the good men 30 years ago.
-Susan Walsh is a misandrist for suggesting that women ought to act in their best interests.
-If I can’t find a sexual partner, the rest of the world is at fault.
Now that I’ve said these things, let’s try and go 10 comments before repeating them.
A messy person projects a “I don’t care” mentality. If they don’t care, why should I.
@GudEnuf
You scared me for a minute, I thought you were in earnest.
I’m hoping this thread will not be controversial!
Musical tastes?
I have pretty wide ranging tastes, but boy bands and ‘teh love whale’ type pussy music are unacceptable – clearly. Call me a facist if you must, I can take it
Sad to say, but I took GudEnuf’s comment at face value…but then my weekend has started. (sorry G)
@Just1X
Oh you already proved your cred with expertise on the whole Celtic Afro scene. Very strong DHV, IMO.
A messy person projects a “I don’t care” mentality. If they don’t care, why should I.
Studies are piling up that show that messy desks are the vivid signatures of people with creative, limber minds: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/garden/21mess.html?pagewanted=all
To be honest I’m looking for something new to listen to. My last favourite was ‘Hugo’ an Anglo-Thai guy (off the top of my head) ‘Mekong River Delta’ and ‘Born’. ’99 problems’ still makes me smile though. I need something with a little more energy, just perusing my collection…
Amy MacDonald – Don’t tell me that its over
not bad, but still too slow
result! now if I could just find my damn air-guitar…
The Cult – She sells sanctuary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I8mWG6HlmU&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AL94UKMTqg-9C9TZWvFtSMbN3vWLFvWMDW
(love one of the comments; This song makes me want to dress like a gay Apache sea pirate. )
The Cult – Rain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3DgAJwVeVU&feature=related
The Cult – Love removal machine
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneFS48Z4Ws&feature=related
The Cult – Wild hearted son
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFrhKs4ZAbg
Do we ever get over our early music interests? I’m afraid not.
Having ruined any street cred I ever scraped together, this weekend I shall mainly be listening to the Dandy Warhols (though the comic reference won’t make it over the pond, I’m afraid).
Told you my musical ‘tastes’ were varied…it’s going to be a good weekend
If there was only a very limited number of trial runs and that is the total, then many more men would see much more wife material. But alas, here we are.
Just1x – “Do we ever get over our early music interests? I’m afraid not”
If my continuing desire for early Depeche Mode music is any indication, I would say you are correct.
Great post, Susan!
I think emo vs. stoic has been the greatest challenge in my dating life. As a really strong NF who loves talking about ideas, I tend to have a lot of NF and NT connections (both friendship connections and romantic ones).
The problem for me (and this sounds weird — feel free to laugh) is that NF boys stink. To me. What I mean is, something about our chemistry feels off and they don’t smell right to me when I get close. Whereas, NT men and I have great talks and they generally tend to smell and taste marvelous. They’re fun to roll around on! So fun to hug and kiss.
I tend to think of this as a complementary immune system issue. I’d probably give birth to a neurochemically well-rounded child with an NT.
But… they tend to be meanies/shut down if I cry and want to talk through my feelings. And I’m talking about crying over legitimate things like my brother passing, a student of mine struggling, human rights issues… I’m not talking about crying if a nail breaks or if I can’t pick where to go to dinner.
It’s an interesting conundrum to be most physically and sexually compatible with men who dislike even legitimate emo…
Anyways, such a wise post! Hope your young ladies show up and comment on this one…
@Ted
you too huh?
I have dabbled in Depeche Mode, but I didn’t inhale…my uni room-mate went to one of their concerts, and he exposed me to Devo…
Just1X – OMG! I went to a Devo concert once upon a time. I didn’t know who they were, and I was very disturbed by all the people that showed up wearing flow pots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devo
“History
Early years
The name “Devo” comes “from their concept of ‘de-evolution’ – the idea that instead of continuing to evolve, mankind has actually begun to regress, as evidenced by the dysfunction and herd mentality of American society.”
Boy, this group could provide the theme music for HUS and the manosphere…
and half way down that page are pictures of them wearing flower pots on their heads
Sorry! not flower-pots, “Energy Domes” – you could not make this shit up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_dome
Some decent advice, but I take issue with #6.
First off, people lie constantly. (link is to a Ted Talk)
http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar.html
Second, we get into a slippery slope in terms of what is defined as a “significant” lie. Do you really want to know all the details? Is leaving out details considered a lie? Etc.
Third, the benefits of “lying”* (and not getting caught) far outweigh the costs. With that in mind, there are some seriously dumb relationship questions.
http://genuineapproach.com/2012/06/the-dumbest-relationship-question/
*I have personally witnessed women lie constantly about their sexual experiences. Certain things just “don’t count”. Again, the benefits of lying far outweigh the costs.
Reminds me of a NY Times article back in 2006 that I’ve saved in my email for future purposes.
Questions Couples Should Ask (Or Wish They Had) Before Marrying
Relationship experts report that too many couples fail to ask each other critical questions before marrying. Here are a few key ones that couples should consider asking:
1) Have we discussed whether or not to have children, and if the answer is yes, who is going to be the primary care giver?
2) Do we have a clear idea of each other’s financial obligations and goals, and do our ideas about spending and saving mesh?
3) Have we discussed our expectations for how the household will be maintained, and are we in agreement on who will manage the chores?
4) Have we fully disclosed our health histories, both physical and mental?
5) Is my partner affectionate to the degree that I expect?
6) Can we comfortably and openly discuss our sexual needs, preferences and fears?
7) Will there be a television in the bedroom?
8) Do we truly listen to each other and fairly consider one another’s ideas and complaints?
9) Have we reached a clear understanding of each other’s spiritual beliefs and needs, and have we discussed when and how our children will be exposed to religious/moral education?
10) Do we like and respect each other’s friends?
11) Do we value and respect each other’s parents, and is either of us concerned about whether the parents will interfere with the relationship?
12) What does my family do that annoys you?
13) Are there some things that you and I are NOT prepared to give up in the marriage?
14) If one of us were to be offered a career opportunity in a location far from the other’s family, are we prepared to move?
15) Do each of us feel fully confident in the other’s commitment to the marriage and believe that the bond can survive whatever challenges we may face?
This is actually a damn good list and bring to sharp relief many aspects of incompatibility my love blinders put on me during marriage.
1. I was neat, she nuked the place. Cleaning up was my ‘chore’.
2. Stoics n emos. Not fully applicable but i was INT and she was ENT. Her social lifestyle of get togethers and entertaining drained me.
3. We were sexually compatible at the start, but soon she altered the frequency and type of sex she was looking for. big hurdle. Sexual similarities are also important like kinks, fetishes, preferences.
7. Jealousy. I was never overtly jealous or leashed her, but her social ways and hots for celebs wore on me. Back then i may have felt i was also punching above my weight and lucked out. Today with the changes i’ve made, we’d be almost at par, or me higher up in sex rank.
9. Passions. worked against me tho. i was passionate about a lot of things, all things she didn’t, or caused strife. our passions were not on the same level.
10. At the very beginning it felt this way, tho probably because she played her feminine part well, and only when she shit test me to death and continued to fight for control did it become ‘not easy’.
I would also add that female jealousy can’t help either. And partner count disparity or perceptions. I was an multi year incel, she was not without a boyfriend for her entire life. This led to a perception of not her taking certain things for granted that i held appreciation for.
All in all, a good list to go by if you’re in the market for marriage. Pump n dumpers will not care for this.
If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.
Interesting.
Re Stoics and Emos
Are you sure that it is that clear cut?
In the event of the zombie apocolypse (it can only be a matter of time), do you not want a man that ‘gets shit done’, and while tucked up in bed later, then he can reveal his emo side?
This would be more alignment with PUA theory (and no, I’m not a PUA)
@Just1X
I don’t know, I rarely listen to Abba or Blondie much anymore.
Or The Commodores (the first record I ever bought on my own was Natural High)…in terms of that if punk hadn’t happened I would have been the classic white kid into funk.
Now days it’s a mix of goth from Joy Division to today (you spin it on the radio and it says in your blood) and all kinds of electronic (Jean Michael Jarre to the whole EBM spectrum) plus tons of ethereal (did you hear Unto Ashes got back together and just put out an album).
@Susan
Re:1…my ability to compromise on that is one of the big issues in the gf and I moving in together.
@Herb
Never heard of Unto Ashes, but next time I’m feeling that way inclined, I’ll give them a go. Thanks for the suggestion. Done Jarre, Tangerine Dream, Crustation, Deep Forest
If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed… Interesting.
I agree that it’s bad in women too, but as the daughter of a man who was prone to unjustified jealous rages, I can see how people might see that as more commonly a male problem than a female one. Factually, it might not be, but I understand the (mis?)perception.
Thank you.
The truth is that many people will actually get angry at you if you say this in some sort of public forum and you are able to make a reasonable argument in favor of it.
Basically, they resent you for having a good relationship.
Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person.
Really? I find it hard as hell, despite being married to “the right person.” Unfortunately, for both DH and me, the right person was also a person from a similarly disfunctional family. That’s meant we both had a lot to learn and unlearn.
Susan, you’ve told some stories regarding your family of origin that indicate some dysfunction as well. How did you get around that to the extent that you found marriage easy? What’s your secret? (I hope that doesn’t sound snarky. I really would benefit from your answer.)
You have to laugh at the same stuff.
Or as DH and I would add, at the same people.
@GudEnuf
That was funny!
” Deep Forest”
YES!
I’ve recently been dragged into Dub Step by my daughter’s minor obsession with Skrillex. As a fan of electronic music from way back (DM was my first!!!) I can and do like a lot of it. The flip side is some of it really does just sound like random noise shoved together. I see the ‘art’ part of DS and similar electronic styles is often taking non-musical sounds and making them musical. But when that fails, it fails badly.
@Ted
I feel old now, I’m off for milk, cookies and the Germany vs Greece game 3nd half (no grudges there)
g’night
Skrillex is what my older son wants to be when he grows up. You can imagine the noise level here.
J – “Skrillex is what my older son wants to be when he grows up. You can imagine the noise level here.”
I started playing drums when I was 14. From that day on, peace and quiet in my house was often scarce. But look on the bright side. It is a good creative outlet, and I read somewhere that music helps with math skills. That may be true for some, but certainly didn’t work for me…
Basically, we’re cool with it. Everyone here is musical but me. I’m the designated listener.
Just1X – “I feel old now,”
What did I do? Oh wait, was it that DM was my first electronic band? If it helps, I was into Kraftwerk too, but not until much later. If I was totally honest though, I would have to admit that the very first song that turned me on to synthesizers was “Don’t You Want Me” by Human League. That song got me to the library to figure out exactly what a synthesizer was, and within a year I was building and playing with analog synth circuits. I was 13 at the time I think. Yeah, ’83 sounds about right for that Human League song…
Would it help if I told you I remember disco, in detail?
J – “Basically, we’re cool with it. Everyone here is musical but me. I’m the designated listener.”
The only person in our house without musical “talent” of some flavor is my SO’s son, so he is our designated listener. And to be honest, it is a bit of chaotic fun having several musical people in the house that listen to different things. Thank God none of us listens to country. That would likely end badly.
This is a great post as usual, Susan! This list is helpful but I’m wondering, in your experience, with numbers 5 and 10, how quickly did this compatibility become apparent? Was it right away? After a few dates? After a few weeks? months? One thing that I struggle with when dating is knowing how much time to allow for us to get comfortable and then to see if compatibility will grow or, at least, become more apparent. I never know how much time to give a relationship to grow before it becomes a waste of time.
@Pennies
That is so interesting – the idea that pheromones would be linked to personality type. I wonder if there is any research on this.
@Susan
It’s been a bit disappointing — there have been 4-5 NF men I would have happily dated but their breath, the smell of their skin, etc… just not appealing to me. Kind of sour or overly spicy. It’s like my body was making a decision for me…
@Valeria
My take on your question about how long to wait: no marriage for at least a year and a half after first meeting. I truly believe that our brain is flooded with chemicals when we are first falling in love. So, we will all act more empathetic, honest, interested, passionate, talkative, caring… Over time, we become more relaxed and comfortable and that’s when you need to assess. After the happy brain flood is over. It’ll be interesting to hear Susan’s perspective on this…
@theMac
I like that post on the cheating question. I agree that there’s no point in asking it. I didn’t really have that in mind when I wrote the post, but I do think each person will have to define what a significant lie is to them, and whether it must be an outright lie or a lie of omission.
For example, not mentioning that you have a girlfriend when you ask someone on a date.
Not mentioning that you are still having drama with your ex even as you enter a new relationship.
Cheating in the relationship (not a prior one).
Lying about your whereabouts or who you were with.
Lying about having an STD.
Misrepresenting your employment or educational credentials.
You get the idea. Big stuff.
@JL125
I agree with the importance of the questions on that list. By the time my husband and I became engaged, we’d already covered that territory, so we didn’t need to have a formal Q&A. Obviously, that’s ideal, but if either party has questions, they shouldn’t hesitate to fire them off.
@Susan
Do you remember the t-shirt experiment from a while back?
Summary:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/6/l_016_08.html
The PBS summary reports, “Overall, the women preferred the scents of T-shirts worn by men whose MHC genes were different from their own.”
My guess is that there will be further research that indicates that — in the aggregate — humans tend to seek mates that have some degree of neurochemical diversity (which would express itself in terms of personality differences). And diversity in terms of not sharing the same illnesses in their family lines…
If anyone’s seen research related to this, I would love to see links!
Oops, clarification needed. This is strictly a function of my generally writing to women in my head. I think jealous and possessive behavior is a red flag in general, but I do think it functions differently for the sexes. The male is truly worried about sexual unfaithfulness, i.e. cuckolding, while the female is most worried about his developing feelings for someone else. In a recent example I gave of an ex-gf acting psycho with 60 phone calls in an hour, the men (VD, I think) suggested the guy would take that as a positive indication of loyalty and focus on him.
FWIW, I do think the concept of this post applies equally to both sexes, pronoun errors notwithstanding.
@Just1X
Good point. I’d say the ideal is definitely a man who gets shit done and unwinds in private later. Goodness, I would not appreciate getting emo phone calls while I was working, or while business needed tending to. A time and a place for everything.
I have dated guys who don’t do cuddling. We also discussed this once at a focus group and several women said they hate cuddling or spooning, and want to be as far away in the bed as possible. I find that hard to imagine – perhaps this reflects the masculinization of females because of feminism.
@Herb
Is she the messy one? If so, tell her what I said. Her messiness makes you miserable, your neatness is a nice bennie for her. She needs to step up.
If anyone’s seen research related to this, I would love to see links!
I didn’t do research but as fellow member of “some men really stink” I asked my now husband to sent me a sweated T-Shirt (he sent in a Ziploc bag) to my country (LDR) right after we realized we were really compatible and he does smells really good, which gave me green light to continue further. So be patient and try to ask your dates not to wear perfume if you can, perfume can mask the real smell and also make him smell different, that will save both of you time.
@Valeria
For me, I think the two criteria are:
Is this moving forward? Is intimacy growing, and affection with it?
and
Are we moving forward at the same pace?
I think both 5 and 10 are related to that. If you’re feeling a rush of love, and what you see in his eyes is not love but something else, maybe even indifference, then you know you’re in too deep. Conversely, if he’s giving you warm puppy eyes and you’re not invested yet you feel like he’s needy. What you want is to see an expression that matches your own.
@Anacaona
“I didn’t do research but as fellow member of “some men really stink” I asked my now husband to sent me a sweated T-Shirt (he sent in a Ziploc bag) to my country (LDR) right after we realized we were really compatible and he does smells really good, which gave me green light to continue further.”
I LOVE this. I might not have the guts to ask myself…
I’ve also heard that birth control pills can impair the smell work that needs to be done between potential matches. I don’t remember where/when offhand.
@Pennies
Yes, I wrote about the t-shirt experiment. But what I haven’t seen is the linking of the t-shirts to MB types. I don’t know a great deal about MB – but there is lots of info. about which types pair up romantically together. My husband and I are supposedly a poor match – INTJ and ENFJ. So it’s not foolproof
I LOVE this. I might not have the guts to ask myself…
You need to find a store and purchase some guts. Guts are a most have item to win at love, IMO.
I’ve also heard that birth control pills can impair the smell work that needs to be done between potential matches. I don’t remember where/when offhand.
I actually only used birth control after hubby and I started to have sex so it was not a problem. I was a whole year with them before getting pregnant but besides messing with my period I never felt a change on his smell. Funny enough there is a brand of organic milk that I bought once because it was on sale (cheap girl here) that made his breath smell awful, funny that.
Yes, I haven’t seen a thing about Myers-Briggs and biochemistry, but I think those connections will be made soon enough. Just a hunch!
I think the matching theories are more foolproof for people who have strong preferences for all four categories. If you’re more inclined towards the middle for each of the preferences, I think it matters far less.
“Funny enough there is a brand of organic milk that I bought once because it was on sale (cheap girl here) that made his breath smell awful, funny that.”
Activia yogurt did that with my current bf. After a week of trying not to mention it, I told him I would resign as his lady if he didn’t stop eating it. Three years later, I still remember… Gack! What horrible breath! I could not sleep near him until it wore off.
None of the guys who eat paleo ever mention it, but supposedly it produces nasty ketone breath. It’s euphemistically described as smelling like nail polish remover.
Activia yogurt did that with my current bf. After a week of trying not to mention it, I told him I would resign as his lady if he didn’t stop eating it. Three years later, I still remember… Gack! What horrible breath! I could not sleep near him until it wore off.
That is funny. Another anecdote I love my little brother very much he once bough a perfume that when he used it made me completely violent towards him like I wanted to slap him till my hand fell off, I never did it of course, but I told him that he should get a refund because his new perfume most be a cheap imitation he checked it and it was original and told me that it had the opposite effect with women, specialy his girlfriend was more affectionated, if you know what I mean towards him, really odd that. I just kept myself away from him till he stopped buying the unholy thing.
Now I think is the first time I found a fellow “smeller” Are you an ENTJ or a ENFJ? Do you know if your parents are Alpha’s or Betas? Are you a supertaster too? And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?
I’ve recently been dragged into Dub Step by my daughter’s minor obsession with Skrillex. As a fan of electronic music from way back
Ted, I’m a huge fan of electronic music, but I just can’t get into Dub Step. To me, it feels like it is just missing that beat. I’m a Chi-town guy since day 1 so my intro to electronic music was the old school Chicago house from the early 90s. My absolute favorite stuff is the progressive house and electro-house. There is this young kid I just found out about Porter Robinson who just kills it in my opinion….super high energy stuff although he tinkers with some of the Dub Step stuff as well.
Back when I was bouncing there was one guy who was a local guy who was actually a big name and toured the U.S. and Europe and once in a great while would play one of the dive bars I worked at. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him for a few hours just put together the greatest mixes
I thought I read somewhere you put stuff together. What kind of style do you focus on?
>> “4. You have to laugh at the same stuff.”
It’s getting late where I am so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole post and the comments, but I just wanted to say that this part is very VERY true. I’ve joked to my bf that South Park vs. Family Guy vs. Simpsons should be used as a first date filtering question. (We’re both South Park people.
)
(And just to clarify: I don’t advocate *actually* rejecting a guy because he likes Family Guy. But it’s very important to have somebody that you can laugh with.)
It’s getting late where I am so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole post and the comments, but I just wanted to say that this part is very VERY true. I’ve joked to my bf that South Park vs. Family Guy vs. Simpsons should be used as a first date filtering question. (We’re both South Park people.
)
Oh that would be disastrous for me and hubby as first date filtering. Do anyone remember when Whoopi Goldberg was dating Ted Danson and he showed up as black face in an event as an inside joke and everyone flipped their underpants in a bunch? That is the sort of humor we have, not something to check on the first date or else the cops will show up.
Interesting things you’ve learned. However, you must understand that anything connected to the Red Sox is inherently evil. Of course, I’m a Yankee fan, so I might have a few ideas with that.
Also, I’ve learned to have some appreciation for the Beatles after dating a girl in college. Growing up, I thought of the Beatles are Some Of The Evil People Who Stole Our Music and who must be led off to the gas chambers when the Revolution comes. Now, I think of them as great songwriters who couldn’t really sing. Not great, but it’s an improvement.
But everyone you date is interesting. I’ve learned a lot about women, their similarities and their quirks. I would definitely say that when you don’t feel it, let it go. The worse thing you can do is try to keep alive a dead relationship.
@Todd
Oh yeah, the Beatles definitely “borrowed” your music. In my view, they made something new, though.
I agree 100% on getting out of relationships that are just sort of limping along. I think this happens a lot, especially when people (mostly women) fear being single again. I know two women in really mediocre relationships right now, and instead of ending them they are talking about marriage!
@Susan
That I never understood. Effort and passion are the hardest things to come by, since I’ve learned we’re more compatible with people than we think. I just never got the point of limping along. I guess inertia is a great aphrodisiac.
Out of topic
Susan congratulations on making Athol’s new blogroll…not that it surprises me.
YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.
I’ve learned a lot about myself and my boyfriend in our relationship. He’s definitely much more neat and organized than I am. Once or twice I’ve really disappointed him with poor time management. One conversation led to another and I found myself taking a range of psychological tests and — yep — turns out, all this time I’ve just been ADD. For realz.
YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.
You are welcome.
Is funny that is not a problem for my hubby first I warned him before we got married “Honey I’m a messy person I will not be a home goddess if that is what you want out of a wife” He is not a neat freak thank goodness except for his stuff like tools for miniature painting which I don’t touch for obvious reasons. He has a median Clutter Tolerance Quotient while I have a High Clutter Tolerance Quotient so I suspect that if it was a higher difference we would be in serious problems.
Beatles? Baseball? Fuck that. College football. Beach Boys. We would never have made it.
@Ted
“Would it help if I told you I remember disco, in detail?”
no, not much. thanks for the offer
you can get modern disco with Goldfrapp (Supernature albun) and a touch of Human League with Ladytron (Destroy everything you touch). Disco never died. Not an everyday favourite of mine, but with Donna Summer dying I did enjoy hearing ‘I feel love’ again.
Thank you Aunt Sue!
This is great advice.
The only one I would possibly contest is ‘Stoics and emos don’t mix’. But I see your point nonetheless.
I embrace your advice wholeheartedly on this one
Haha I loved that messy desk article. I believe very strongly in the distinction between “messy” and “dirty”.
@Senior Beta
College football and the Beach Boys are an awesome combo! It might just as easily have been that…
Funny, while my kids were growing up they loved listening to both the Beatles and the Beach Boys in the car. Lots of accessible melodies and lyrics with both groups.
Ana: “Now I think is the first time I found a fellow “smeller” Are you an ENTJ or a ENFJ? Do you know if your parents are Alpha’s or Betas? Are you a supertaster too? And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?”
Ana, I’m an ENFP but the E and P are weak. I certainly identify somewhat with some ENFJ qualities too…
“And if you have a boyfriend why are you asking this questions?”
*Squirm* It’s just fun to think about.
Parents — I don’t use the alpha/beta terminology with a lot of precision and care so it’s hard to say. My dad was tall, handsome, outgoing, kind of a flirt, and athletic. He was a career salesman and seemed to work hard but was not keen on bringing his job home. He stayed around the house a lot to keep my mom — an extreme introvert — company. So he was always puttering around gardening, building trellises, playing sports with me and my brother. I was more athletic than my super tall brother and I think that was a bit of a disappointment to him because he wanted to train my brother to have basketball and baseball skills. I remember being mortified because he was the only dad who volunteered to chaperone fieldtrips. I dunno – is that alpha or beta to you? Seems like kind of a mix to me. I think if he had wound up with an extroverted woman with more confidence than my mom, he would have had a banging social life, would have drank to excess, and potentially could have had affairs, etc. But my mom seemed pretty determined to keep a lid on that kind of behavior and played the pity card a lot.
Supertaster — I have a cayenne pepper addiction of sorts and my refrigerator is covered in magnetic spice pots with all sorts of good stuff from an Indian spice market downtown. I’m really into food/cooking. But I’m not sure if I would full-on qualify as a supertaster. I take it you are? That’s cool!
Dear Susan,
First of all, let me say “thank you” for another wonderful and insightful article– I’m a new reader, but I’m already finding all your advice enlightening and quite helpful.
I love how in this article you mentioned the need for passion in a successful relationship; I couldn’t agree more. While I was reading, I reflected on my last long term relationship and realized that my ex and I never fought, and rarely had a heated discussion. We did have several deep, meaningful talks (politics, history, etc.), but everything just seemed to go too smoothly- I didn’t want knock-down-drag-out-for-weeks fights, but a little something besides the flat “Yeah, I agree”– partly because I had always anticipated some conflict in a long term relationship. We ended for other reasons, but that was one thing that had always bothered me. Was I right to let it do so?
Is this also part of the learning process?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o4sIva3Ikk&feature=player_embedded
.
you can get modern disco with Goldfrapp (Supernature albun) and a touch of Human League with Ladytron (Destroy everything you touch). Disco never died. Not an everyday favourite of mine, but with Donna Summer dying I did enjoy hearing ‘I feel love’ again.
Mmm interesting hubby is a fan of electronic music (I’m too newbie to comment on this) and he has those artists on his collection. Never associated them with disco till now…
PS
I’m always looking for presents for him so all of you fans feel free to drop a new artist or record when is available so I can surprise him…you know keeping things interesting and winning brownie points in my marriage.
Funny, while my kids were growing up they loved listening to both the Beatles and the Beach Boys in the car. Lots of accessible melodies and lyrics with both groups.
I grew up hearing 50′s and 60′s music my father used to play them every sunday so he is always surprised that I can talk his parents music and he is like ????
Ana, I’m an ENFP but the E and P are weak. I certainly identify somewhat with some ENFJ qualities too…
Yeah I’m ENFJ but my E is more middle and the F is really low jumping into T once in a while.
As a note this blog is full of N. I wonder if only N’s can see how things are going between the lines and are looking for info because they know something doesn’t compute…
Your parents have the same combo than mine father was extroverted mother introverted. I think many people advice against this but I take your parents are still together so are mine, maybe the other generations cannot accommodate the others like old generations did? He does sound Alpha good thing he managed to find someone that moderated his tendencies.
I’m a supertaster but I didn’t grew up with Indian food so I’m not a fan I’m starting to get into it because hubby loves it. I asked because hubby did connected my “smelling” with my “tasting” and I though there might be a relationship. It doesn’t look like in your case so maybe is just a coincidence.
Thanks for answering my questions!
@Ana wilco, but it’s hard to predict what someone will like. what I listen to wanders around genres. Not all Goldfrapp is disco, I don’t like the majority of Ladytron (but some tracks catch me).
As I am in an up beat mood (you may have noticed) I think that this is a Dandy Warhols weekend, if you don’t start smiling and tapping along to ‘We used to be friends’, ‘I am over it’, ‘You were the last high’, ‘Bohemian like you’, ‘Holding me up’…then perhaps the zombie apocolypse has already happened…have you got a craving to eat brains?
Have you tried (I have no idea what has made it in the States):
Florence and the machine (Lungs – Rabbit Heart / Howl)
Reverend and the makers (Heavyweight Champion Of The World / The State Of Things / Mermaids)
Kasabian (first album – catchy & different)
If you’re looking for something more relaxed, as Susan alluded to above, we talked about music around xmas time IIRC…
From the men I didn’t marry, I learned I, for sure like a dominant man. I dated some wonderful less than dominant guys, but it was clear after awhile, that they didn’t float my boat.
Definitely knew I needed a guy I could laugh with.
Also ilearned that first impressions can change-which was huge for me to realize.
Yep Ana, my parents have been together about 40 years…
@Abbot
ROTFLMAO! In all seriousness, they are honest about the consequences of casual sex, but they go WAY to the left. All things in moderation. Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.
Florence and the machine (Lungs – Rabbit Heart / Howl)
Reverend and the makers (Heavyweight Champion Of The World / The State Of Things / Mermaids)
Kasabian (first album – catchy & different)
Hubby heard the Twilight song Florence did and he said that he though he would like it but for him it went nowhere I will show him a couple of more songs from her to see if it was a problem with the song or the artist. I will copy paste the rest of suggestions on my “gifts for hubby” file.
Muchas Gracias
@pennies
I can see that at least you have a good example of how people can learn to live with each other differences. Mine had been together for 36, BTW
Below is one the match questions on the dating site okcupid. It is on the site only because people submitted the question for the site owner to post as a question for all members and men are absolutely and universally concerned about this.
You’re in a new relationship and your partner admits that they have had 14 sexual partners. Does that sound like a lot to you?
Yes, and it makes me uncomfortable.
I guess, but It doesn’t change how I feel.
That seems like an average number.
No, that’s nothing.
Answers I’ll accept…
Yes, and it makes me uncomfortable.
I guess, but It doesn’t change how I feel.
That seems like an average number.
No, that’s nothing.
This question is…
Irrelevant
A little important
Somewhat important
Very important
Mandatory
Explain your answer (optional)
Men are really catching on -
“A guy looking for serious material would have to be pretty desperate to take on a gal who had numerous sex partners. I don’t care if she was young or whatever, it’s jus an excuse to pass it off as if it was normal thing to do. 30,40, 100? If you’re in that category, don’t let the man know, he might just add to the count and say goodby. Most legit serious guys looking for something special would’nt touch you with a 10 foot pole.”
“If you state that a woman’s worth isn’t in her crotch, then where is it and why aren’t the guys going after that place in stead of her crotch?”
Ah, and a comment from a female -
“wow..this is by far the first question to make my blood boil..how many guys have slept around with hundreds of girls and expect to be taken seriously?”
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/468949?utm_source=popup&utm_medium=3
.
”.how many guys have slept around with hundreds of girls and expect to be taken seriously?””
That’s a tool used by many women to divert the man’s attention from the women’s lack of morals.
”And for how long men were capable of sleeping with many women?”
Certainly not my ancestors as our social status wasn’t high. Women like this look at Casanova and Marquis de Sade and their doings and honestly believe all men to be like those guys, because to most women, only the males who are above average in looks/height/muscles and social status are real men, the rest are ”Lets just be friends” material, aka beta orbiters.
The safest course of action for a man is to assume every woman has had many sexual partners.
1)He isn’t crushed when he finds out his lovey-dovey girlfriend had more sexual partners than him(lets be honest, beta males aren’t exhausting the supermarket’s condoms reserve).
2) He doesn’t put his girlfriend in a pedestal. Though, I’ve dated a real virgin(attractive but never had anything to do with men because she was expecting the Alpha males to approach her etc) and she was only conservative in thought and in action because the opportunity to act true to her desires wasn’t there, as soon as Mr. Brad Pitt showed interest, I was dumped faster than the speed of light.
3) He knows what he can count on. As, the woman clearly does not associate emotional attachment with the men she’s had sex with. If she does, it proves that she’s either emotionally volatile, incapable of commitment, or that she doesn’t know how to screen men for their value as LTR partners and has to use sex to bind to her the man she desires or has low self-esteem.
4) He learns from her that asymptomatic women can indeed carry HSV-1 and HSV-2 plus the HPV virus without her knowledge and lets be frank, every one has slept with everyone, for the woman we have sex with has had sex with some other guy, that other guy slept with some other chick, thus spreading the endless array of STD’s, being one of the reasons for men not wanting women with high numbers of sexual partners.
I’d recommend, for the women who want marriage, to stay until the marriage as true virgins. I might as well expect people to care less about money and more about humanity, right?
“the woman clearly does not associate emotional attachment with the men she’s had sex with. If she does, it proves that she’s either emotionally volatile, incapable of commitment, or that she doesn’t know how to screen men for their value as LTR partners and has to use sex to bind to her the man she desires or has low self-esteem.”
On every level, men must avoid promiscuous a women no matter how much they justify [grovel for] their worthiness for long term commitment
“The safest course of action for a man is to assume every woman has had many sexual partners.”
More and more that is becoming the default for American women. Tensions are building.
“Women like this look at Casanova and Marquis de Sade and their doings and honestly believe all men to be like those guys, because to most women, only the males who are above average in looks/height/muscles and social status are real men, the rest are ”Lets just be friends” material, aka beta orbiters.”
That is why this whole notion of “learning via dating” is such complete and utter bullshit as it applies to that final life-mate relationship. What exactly have they actually learned? What does this behavior result in such that it makes a positive contribution? What do these women offer in terms of quality [or lack thereof] compared to their counterparts pre 1970?
@Ana
you’re welcome / de rien / por nada(?)
Wow, are you guys done lamenting the end of “virgins times”? This is getting old by the minute. I don’t know why spend so much time bad mouthing and shaming women you say you have no interest in dating. I would never do that unless my secret wish was to get with one of them. You need to let it go and focus on more positive traits in a partner.
People don’t realize what that type of shaming does or says to other people. Even if I’m a very discerning woman with a low count I would never date someone who derives pride and self-esteem from my sexual activity or lack thereof. Just like you would like a woman who feels better about herself because of her boyfriend/husband’s bank account. In any case, you’ll have people lie to you and set yourself up for disappointment. Also, it is another way to put your partner on a pedestal (beta behavior?), and it just creates anxiety for statue and adorer when the fall comes.
I remember going once on a date where the guy kept making fun of a chubbier lady, saying “at least you’re not like that”, thinking I would take it as a compliment. I never saw him again.
“Wow, are you guys done lamenting the end of “virgins times”?”
Ah, the ol virgin card.
“Even if I’m a very discerning woman with a low count I would never date someone who derives pride and self-esteem from my sexual activity or lack thereof.”
Discerning correlates highly with low count and pride and such a woman would absolutely appreciate that her man appreciates that too. If you’re not such a woman then you would not know.
“You need to let it go and focus on more positive traits in a partner.”
Why? And who’s opinion is it about what is more or less positive? Oh wait, it must be that “want to have sex on a whim whenever and then have willing husband prospects lined up” gaggle of promiscuous females. Uh huh
“you’ll have people lie to you and set yourself up for disappointment”
Why would a woman lie about her cock-count to a man if she considers it to be no big deal, as is so often pontificated only by promiscuous women? Oh, yeah, it must be that chronic “men who go along with such nonsense shortage” again.
“it just creates anxiety for statue and adorer when the fall comes.”
SOLUTION – stop lying! How is that going? Will some bad mouthing and shaming get it to stop?
”. I don’t know why spend so much time bad mouthing and shaming women you say you have no interest in dating. I would never do that unless my secret wish was to get with one of them. ”
Once upon a time, older women shamed women into not being sluts. Did you know that originally, only prostitutes used lipstick? It was a definitive marker of the woman’s profession. Suddenly, the vast majority of women began to use lipstick to enhance their beauty and men were left without knowing who was a prostitute and who wasn’t.
Do you see mothers and grandmothers shaming their daughters and grand-daughters? Have you ever seen a woman in a nightclub being pulled out of the bathroom by her mother because she was there with some dude?
Do you see the vast majority of women say ”I’m not like that”, or ”not all women are like that” but way too many guys are used/dumped/ignored etc by women? Do you think the vast majority of the women who file for a divorce go into their marriages while saying to their husbands ” I’m gonna cheat on you, I’m gonna steal your money ,and I’m gonna make you beg for sex?”
Lady, this might seem strange to you but I’ll tell you nonetheless. I belong the male sex of the human species. That means that no one looks out for me, but myself, I, and me again. Millions of young men don’t know how to discern good women from bad women because most women make it a point to let us know that they have breasts and sexy lingerie as underwear.
No grandmother of mine is telling me to stay away from bar girls. Actually, nowadays most mothers and grandmothers encourage their beta grandsons and sons to give commitment to women who clearly do not deserve it. Like, she has a vagina, she deserves the world.
Do you see articles beyond the MGTOW crowd looking out for male interests? Nope. Not even the PUA have the best interest of men as their goal.
So excuse me, and the other guys here for warning young men to think with their heads and how to go about it.
And if I am sickly obsessing over the bad apples found in the crop of my generation of women, it’s because most women aren’t going to lift a finger to work in construction, to become surgeons, to become soldiers, or to do anything beyond reproduction. What is there, then, to evaluate women with?
She has a great job? Great. I’ll have to have an ever greater job because of her hypergamy. Is she highly educated(A degree in History, Art, or photography do not count)? Do I have to spend countless thousands of dollars so that an average looking woman bothers to look at me?
What for? I look sideways and I see lots and lots of psychologists and the(very few) female engineers dating and having children with cads and Brad Pitts.
Really , even at the age of 20, at the height of my hormonal prison I look at the women around me, many are highly attractive and as soon as they start talking I grow incredibly bored and can’t hold on to the attraction I previously felt for them, but good luck in finding an educated woman who ain’t looking for Donald Trump or a Ford model.
Do you like that one better? That I focused on average women instead of doing it on not-so-modest women?
“warning young men to think with their heads and how to go about it.”
Men increasingly are. That is why high N women lie. Can’t blame them. They are finally catching on that men universally do NOT want to marry sluts. So these desperate love lorn women become pedestal impostors due to the chronic shortage of men who are comfortable with their prior behavior.
Is Sunday people let’s have something light or a change:
FIFTY SHADES OF GREY KARAOKE TIME!
http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/50-shades-of-grey-karaoke-62012/1407101
The question is if women like you say are so cunning and smart at adapting and modifying their appearance, why broadcast to who wants to hear that this sex count is your weakness? Women who swear they will never ever fall for it again end up being targeted by the same players. My point is most of you who claim to shame promiscuous women will probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely. If you cannot tell between a prostitute and a “decent” woman, then you are not really making the required efforts to get to know someone, period. And those grandmothers were more worried about intrasexual competition than for the actual well-being of these girls, but 2 birds, 1stone so… All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive. I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past. The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it, there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. You don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either; there, case solved. Move on!!!
”Men increasingly are. ”
Even the men who are highly sexually successful with women do not want anything to do with the women who don’t repress their hypergamy or have high numbers of sexual partners.
I know quite a few casanovas who’ll have sex with women who seem and conduct their lives in a respectful manner, but if the casanovas find out the women they slept with, who were for all accounts good women, had boyfriends at the time; they will not date them. Feelings for the woman or not, even the ”manwhores” cannot go past the deceit the women used on them.
This physiological and emotional scenario of losing ALL of the lust previously felt for very attractive women from the discovery of her low morals must be part of an evolutionary step devised by our male ancestors to not end up raising the children of some other dude. Tell you what, I think the cavemen were far more in touch with the nature of women and with what women really want than most psychologists, marriage counselors and social scientists could ever be, and know.
”That is why high N women lie. Can’t blame them. They are finally catching on that men universally do NOT want to marry sluts.”
Words are just words. I once was played by a very intelligent and decent looking woman but after seeing what she was about, her actions and how she reacted to thugs/Casanovas/PUA’s I had clarity of mind in sufficient order to tell her to take a hike. Man, was she pissed. One thing is to be rejected by an Alpha male, another is to be vehemently told to stay the heck away from me by the dude who was reared by this feminist society to take it up the butt and support/give commitment to a non-decent woman.´
Even a baby can tell when someone’s lying to it. I was raised to be a beta male and even with sexual frustration on my mind and on my body I never went along with what High N women wanted me to do.
Heck, I’ve met a few decent looking girls who must have very low to none sexual partners(spent all of their lives in boarding schools for girls) and still, with the lack of situations to have the(as the MGTOW crowd calls it a thousand cock stare, they are still just as predictable as the High N women.
”Women who swear they will never ever fall for it again end up being targeted by the same players. ”
Women targeted by players? I see women being targeted by players like I see the numberless salesmen or come to my dad’s door to sell him the newest invention by some unknown Tesla(their words). My dad invites them in, puts a beer in front of the dudes and bulshits the sellers so much they end up leaving my dad’s house without any item sold, and hours wasted.
Aren’t women designed to distinguish the guys who want to play for free from the guys who are interested in building a family with them?
Can you explain how the most educated group of women the world has ever produced(western white women and black women), the women who grow up next to males all of their lives before going to high school and initiating the hookup culture with the Alpha males left this recess of experience of being near the males and seeing how they are, suddenly lose all of their INBORN capacity to distinguish cads from providers(here’s a tip; 6 feet tall or taller? Muscular build? Teeth sparkling like diamonds? Maybe he’s not a provider. If most women think that way, better stop stealing their older brother’s superman collection)?
I don’t understand how my grandmother who was raised by her mother because my great-grandfather died in the war knew what young men of Alpha capacity were about and instead of enjoying the fruits of her beauty, chose the dude who wasn’t as noticeably, but already had a paying job at the age of 14 and by age 20 was a senior in a well-off company?
Ok, this is getting long. Players don’t target women. Women target players. You don’t have to go into deep sea to fish when women crowd the shore to pick you, and then complain that there are no good men left or that I ”got played” by the player. Yes, and the dentist played me out of my cash because I was too lazy to brush after eating a bunch of sugar.
”ou don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either; there, case solved. Move on!!!”
That’s not the point.. the point is that the vast majority of males in their teens and in their early 20′s cannot tell which is which because most women dress like they’re heading for a Victoria’s secret convention, every day, and the kids mother’s and grandmothers do not tell them to stay apart from the women who are bad for them, nor do they teach the young men how to distinguish what is good for them from what is bad for them, and the kids fathers are too busy working to make sure their wives do not get all hypergamous on them, or have been kicked out by their wives and are forced to stay away from their own kids..
“sex count is your weakness”
Then, of course it behooves men to eliminate the weakness, no?
“who claim to shame promiscuous women ”
By merely not marrying them. Yes that is shaming and has been going on for a long time.
“probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely”
If that is the case, it will mainly be lying pedestal impersonators. PI’s abound now in the US
“All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive”
Ah, the ol shame men for having agency. Yawn.
“I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past.”
That is the most logical statement yet. But somehow a man is a shamre if he derives pride when declining to commit to a woman with whatever past action give him discomfort.
“The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it,”
So then men are lying to women about their number? Women almost never ask so that is, well, bullshit.
“there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”
This is true. It was already stated above in this post that the assumption is all Western women are promiscuous no matter what they say. All an American man can do, if he does not venture to where the other 95% of women live, is get a sense of comfort through slut tells before he goes to far with her. Not easy as women have become quite crafty.
“You don’t want to get with the “sluts”? They don’t want you either”
Unfortunately for promiscuous women, nearly all men they encounter after being displaced from the harem were not anywhere near as promiscuous. So what’s a girl to do?
An extension to Susan’s list, based on my own experiences:
“If one person is psychologically ‘messy’ (read: neurotic, moody) and the other person is psychologically ‘clean’, the messy person compromises.”
There are some tests in the sports psychology field that can help to determine someone’s level of neurotic absorption, and these batteries are apparently useful in predicting how an athlete will handle stressful “clutch” roles. In a sports environment, you train that person in mental toughness or get rid of him/her, but you certainly don’ t allow the drama queen to throw the game.
In an emotionally-unstable LTR, perverse incentives can exist for the participant with the lower psychological self-mastery to impose costs on the other, usually by behaving in a theatrical manner, expressing negative affect, etc. (I’m not talking about genuine life crisis events here, like the loss of a close friend or family member).
There are various possible solutions, I guess… For example, men and women could screen for mates that have demonstrated an ability to handle extreme stress while remaining composed. In addition, the person prone to meltdowns should take responsibility and realize how this ends up training the other person to want to avoid him/her.
Failing this, the party may need some kind of failsafe that automatically kicks in to quarantine the meltdown (avoid co-habitation with an unstable person, obviously, as that removes all slack from the system and makes contagion unavoidable).
@BastiatBlogger
Hi Bastiat,
I really liked your comment! Though nothing is “failsafe” when it comes to human beings, a few character markers come to mind:
*Observe their actions under stress –maybe not “extreme– but what do they do during a big project at work? Or even in traffic? Someone messing up their order? How do they handle low grade stress (traffic, etc) versus high grade (performance review, etc). Very telling, in my experience
*Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).
They should still treat the cleaning lady like a lady, you know?
*Observe how they narrate the story of their own life. “Victim mentality” = red flag!
I have been compiling a list “Why Mr. Rochester from _Jane Eyre_ is a 19th century Player.” (Some of the teen girls I am mentoring are reading the book and think J + Mr. R is awesome.
)
Before you find out about the cross-dressing, the attempted bigamy, a wife locked in the attic, the manipulation of other woman (Blanche) believing he intends marriage (which is only done to make Jane jealous), or the age difference (40-something guy going after 18 year old employee = creepy); the “victim mentality” is evident from their first long conversation.
Rochester says, “… I like to lay half the blame on ill fortune and adverse circumstances) was thrust on to a wrong tack at the age of one-and-twenty, and have never recovered the right course since: but I might have been very different; I might have been as good as you—wiser—almost as stainless… When fate wronged me, I had not the wisdom to remain cool: I turned desperate; then I degenerated. ”
This is telling because he is abdicating responsibility to “fate.” We all get wronged by “fate” sometimes; life is not fair. But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.
@SayWhaat
“Studies are piling up that show that messy desks are the vivid signatures of people with creative, limber minds
YAY for validation!! Seriously, more so than you would think.”
Haha, me too! By that standard, I may be bordering on genius.
OK, time to stop by Flylady.net for inspiration!
@Todd
” Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.”
Todd, this is an extremely astute comment. I wonder if any of the guys will recognize this pattern in themselves? *coughAbbotcough*
@Mireille
Hi Mireille!
I engaged with Abbot earlier on the “Economists Study Marriage Market” thread.
I think I’ve seen you commenting here before– from France, right?
He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are “good for casual.” He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men. And as long as women can get HPV unknowingly from guys (there is no test for men currently), that is a REALLY cruddy viewpoint to promote.
The way I see it, sluttiness knows no gender. YMMV, as Anacoana would say.
” Repression and whoring tend to come from the same mental space.”
Todd, this is an extremely astute comment. I wonder if any of the guys will recognize this pattern in themselves?”
Now “repression” is being added to the arsenal that describes what men do when they QUIETLY dismiss promiscuous women as long term mating prospects. Nice. Predictable.
“He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are “good for casual.”
He was advocating men to lie (give a false name and address) to women who are proactively attempting to get pregnant and sue for child support.
There now its fixed
“He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men”
and women. Sluts are beloved.
@Abbot
Hi Abbot,
Do you think Todd was wrong? Why or why not?
Listen, Abbot, I really want to like you: You don’t “prude shame” and think women who wait are worth it. That is so awesome!
But when you promote lying and when you promote casual sex for men, all I see is the face of my friend (who waited for marriage) and contracted an STI from her husband. If he hadn’t slept around, she wouldn’t have been infected.
The day you stop promoting casual sex for men will be a great day, and you will definitely have my support!
The recasters and balance redressers are out in full force today. Like old times.
“stop promoting casual sex for men ”
ONLY women get to decide if there will be any sex in any form for men and that typically leads to sex for less than 20% of men. Men don’t get to decide. Thems the breaks…
@Abbot
Hi Abbot,
Aren’t you married? To a woman who saved herself for you? You two can have all the sex you want, no one is getting diseases and both of you are happy. Right?
Why aren’t you advocating THAT instead of casual sex for men?
@Abbot
““He promotes casual sex and sluttery for men”
and women. Sluts are beloved.”
Who here is calling sluts “beloved”? When have I ever said this? I am not a fan of sluttery– and I commented that it “knows no gender.”
More to the point, how is anything I’ve said inaccurate?
You *do* promote casual sex and sluttery for men.
You do hate sluttery for women.
If men did not always say yes to casual sex with women, what would all those liburated women do who are sooo in need of expressing themselves? It would be a disaster for them and all their career aspirations…
@Abbot
“Just say no”– you will kill two birds with one stone.
“Who here is calling sluts “beloved”?”
Many on this site have stated such. And its true. Men love sluts. Why wouldn’t they?
“You do hate sluttery for women.”
No, that makes no sense at all
@Abbot
Abbot, there’s probably nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. I do want to thank you again for sticking up for those of us wish to wait. We definitely need all the support we can get.
Good luck and best wishes to you, Abbot–
“Just say no”
With all the pill laden, expression desperate naked bodies being thrown at some men it does not seem possible for them to say no. And if they did, what will come of the poor career-minded wait-until-after-30-to-marry female crowd?
”“sex count is your weakness””
A weakness that porn is helping young men come to terms with. It’s quite telling when you are in your sexual prime, surrounded by very attractive women, but feel no attraction to them if you’ve fapped before going to school. With the average young man finding porn sooner and sooner and becoming increasingly used to it as his only source of sexual outlet, the next generation is going to defeat their natural weakness.
I even see women my age complaining that men aren’t men anymore, that they don’t approach. The Alpha males and the PUA’s do so, but women want the beta male to approach them for that ego validation and free stuff.
“who claim to shame promiscuous women ”
More specifically calling the attention to the behavior of women. This blog is dedicated to women endeavors in finding eligible men to marry them, but men must stay away from bad women to prevent being spoiled..
“probably end up marrying one anyway, whether she lies or not, it is very likely”
lol, ain’t that one funny. I don’t know any guy my age who is interested in co-habitation with a woman, let alone marriage. I number quite a few men in their 30′s who are either doing the serial monogamy without co-habitation or going John Gault. Marriage doesnt’ seem to be in the plans of the vast majority of the male population, in the states or in Europe.
All this sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive”
Speaking one’s mind correlates with being feminine? Some of the most masculine looking guys I’ve met bitched more than my 8 year old cousin and let me tell that these guys never had to hunt for sex.
Or is this a tactic to have me defend my manhood? lol, I am not a man. I am a citizen of the world.. I am not defined by how women or men perceive me as being, but how good I feel about myself, so if I believe that I am as manly as Dave Bautista, I have to be, or Dove commercials are wrong..
“I derive pride from the things I do and can control, not someone else’s actions or past.”
Women can control their sex lives, yet they claim being the targets of Players, and as if being the target of a person or an organization that wants to derive some sort of compensation for interacting with you escapes the realm of decision, made by women.
See, when I went to visit my German cousin I was constantly accosted by women who were clearly prostitutes, rather good looking ones, too. I refused every one of them. Sure, I’d have to pay for it, but the very modest price required by the typical German hooker is akin to the lack of price on the sex offered by average and hot women, to Alpha males and thugs.
I have absolute control over my own sexual urges – this, despite being in my 20′s and having 10 times more testosterone than ALL women. I expect a woman to guide her life according to a set of rules, no promiscuity, no thugs, no PUA’s, no Alphas.
Is it too much to ask? from the sex equal to my own?
“The thing is in this SMP, people lie all the time, some raise their number, others lower it,”
You’re referring to men raising their numbers and women lowering theirs. It makes sense. The more women a man has bedded the more social proof he has, hence his increase in access to sex. Women, not so much. It’s impossibly easy for a below average woman to have sex.
“there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”
Yes, there is. It teaches you to be weary and to not give your heart away.
“there is no point in putting one’s faith on it and harbor resentful feelings about hypothetical, fictitious or past lovers. ”
If only that was true. Women in their 30′s approach me and try to lay the whole ”commitment” talk, of course I don’t sleep with them. Nasty. After riding the Alpha lollipop for 15 years only God knows what STD’s they’re harboring. Plus, I was never a fan of using public toilets.
@ Michael
What’s wrong with Alphas?
”What’s wrong with Alphas?”
I’m not interested in leftovers.
@Michael #116
Great stuff, well said.
@ Michael
That makes no sense.
That sentiment assumes that all women who have been involved with alphas have been promiscuous.
I have never understood this sentiment towards alpha males or the women who date them.
Most men seem to want to date attractive or very attractive women. It makes the most sense to believe that very attractive women date very attractive men, or alphas. Very attractive women’s assortative mating counterparts would be alpha males.
Why would you hold it against a woman if she has dated alpha males? Notice how I said date, not merely sleep with. Those are different circumstances.
I’m not promiscuous, by any means, but I date alphas. The mere fact that I’ve had a relationship with an alpha is considered unsavory to you?
You don’t want alpha “leftovers”, but how likely is it for an attractive woman to not have dated an equally attractive man in the past?
@Sassy
I doubt many men would be too troubled by AN alpha, but from previous discussions here, it emerged that men don’t like women with high numbers (exceptions exists NA*ALT). Every notch comes at a price.
Michael describes men not interested in the judgement of others (I’d call it MGTOW), they are unlikely to be shamed into changing their minds about this issue. Men tend to have less of a herd instinct than women, they are more prone to thinking independently. (Roissy / Chateau Heartiste posted fairly recently about research supporting the concept of ‘team woman’).
Women are entitled to ignore this, just don’t start complaining later if it affects you. Men get to make choices right along with women.
Reading this blog would suggest that you’re not a believer in ‘pretty lies’ – good for you
@ Just1X
I’ve known about men’s qualms with promiscuous women for awhile now. What I don’t understand is the qualm with the alpha male component of it.
Michael said that he doesn’t want a woman who has been with an alpha at all, even if it was in the form of a relationship. His qualm is with the alpha, which is what is confusing me.
I’ve often wondered if men would have an easier time handling a woman’s past if she has only ever been involved with betas. What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.
Maybe it’s about competition or something.
Sassy, I don’t think there is anything wrong with you preferring alphas. Your honesty is quite refreshing.
I for one believe that romantic/sexual attention from the alpha is at the very least a private, guilty pleasure for even the most publicly-critical women: one can be in a heated discussion with an arch-feminist and politely interrupt to ask her if she would like to continue the conversation over dinner, and watch her whole expression change back to a certain charming schoolgirl look—self-conscious hair manipulation, the aversion of the eyes, the shy smile, the slight change in body language, etc. The geopolitical tirades and strident anti-playboy remarks go right out the window (hence the quick NARS touch-ups in the bathroom, the adjustment of cleavage for effect, and so on).
That said, I want to agree with Michael about the strategic use of fapping. I think of porn as a mechanism for finding satori.
@Sassy
I’m afraid I wouldn’t differentiate, so I can’t answer you here.
I’m just chuffed that there appears to be another MGTOW around (assuming that’s how he chooses to identify).
But it’s late and we just lost to Italy on penalties, bollocks!
mout for tonight
@Michael
porn ain’t just for you darned tooting whipper snappers, dag nabbit
Porn. Adding clarity of thought and independance of mind to men of all ages since the birth of ‘top shelf’ cave paintings and fertility goddess statuettes.
(g’night for real)
”I’m just chuffed that there appears to be another MGTOW around (assuming that’s how he chooses to identify).”
Not an MGTOW. Just someone who thinks with the upper head. I don’t ascribe to any movement.
’ve often wondered if men would have an easier time handling a woman’s past if she has only ever been involved with betas. What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.
Sassy,
Firstly, as I’ve stated previously I reject the notion of classifying a guy as either an alpha or beta. I especially think it is extremely damaging for a guy to think of himself as a “beta” because then he has imposed limitations on personal growth (such as learning to be more assertive or aloof).
That said, I’ll take a stab at your question here. First, go back over the last couple of threads and find the comments by Tasmin. He has had some kick ass comments that address part of this.
Here’s the issue. A woman like yourself has a stated preference for men who demonstrate more alpha qualities (such as a guy who rides a motorcycle instead of driving a mini-van). Other women may have a revealed preference for more alpha like behaviors over many years of their dating history. So if they wake up one day and all of sudden decide they will date men with more beta behaviors, the first logical question is WHY? Why has there been a change in preference.
For many guys who are more beta, what it really smacks of is settling for second best. The women in question cannot get the more alpha type guy to commit, so they go for the guy who actually will commit. He is the consolation prize.
Now we can debate for eternity how accurate and/or prevalent this is. I have my opinion, Susan has her opinion, other women here have their opinions. Irrespective of the accuracy, this is the mindset of the more beta guy. He has the lingering insecurity he is being chosen because she can’t get what she really wants. And this insecurity is much higher if the woman has a long history of only dating alpha men.
Hopefully, this helps you in understanding what the male psychology at play here is.
Me personally, I don’t bring the anti alpha male mindset many MEN and women bring here, because I’ve had many positive experiences with more alpha men, and I’ve seen many of their attributes as something to shoot for, not something to bemoan. For many men, the root of the negativity is jealousy and envy.
Jackie…”Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).”
Yes. Very well put.
Jackie at 99: “We all get wronged by “fate” sometimes; life is not fair. But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.”
I certainly agree with both of these statements; but I doubt sincerely whether a person’s response to unfairness “tells” you the same thing that it tells me.
Tell me, now: do you understand there to be a difference between fairness and justice, or are they synonymous to you? In the latter case, I foresee a great career future for you as the social director at Devil’s Island….
@david foster (@129)
Hi David,
Thank you, good sir!
I thought of that wonderful story of leadership from your blog– about the doctor supervising at the hospital who knew the janitor, his family, and their social situation . Your blog is awesome!
@Esau (#130)
“Tell me, now: do you understand there to be a difference between fairness and justice, or are they synonymous to you? In the latter case, I foresee a great career future for you as the social director at Devil’s Island….”
Hi Esau!
Are you psychic? I ask because my sister and I were just discussing this hours ago! Specifically the “Just World” fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)
To answer your question: No, they are not synonymous. Justice is defined as “the administering of deserved punishment or reward.” Fairness, “the state, condition, or quality of being fair, or free from bias or injustice.”
My mom’s cotillion training has prepared me for even greater heights than social directory of a penal colony. I believe I shall aim higher, Esau, and aspire to better things.
PS: Although, how great is this quote for those who do believe in a “just world”:
“Though the mills of God grind slowly, they grind exceedingly fine.” (supposedly attributed to Friedrich von Logau)
*Observe how they treat people in less power. The old adage is to watch how a guy treats the waiter, because in 6 months that will be how he treats you. I would extend it to: People under their supervision at work, children, older people, poor people and people society “looks down” on (unattractive people, “people of wal-mart” etc).
This is a very overlooked advice nowadays. Is easy for a man to treat you “nice” when he has the hots for you now when things go to a calmer place that is when he shows his true colors. I never got the concept that women want the Alpha to be nice to them and them only, that shows a lot of poor planning, disregard for other’s feelings and in the end it doesn’t work once the passion dissappears or he develops a strong passion for another woman, that lady is totally screwed up, YMMV.
Haha, me too! By that standard, I may be bordering on genius. OK, time to stop by Flylady.net for inspiration!
As starting my training for SHAM I consulted that site…months ago…I still haven’t shined my sink…So yeah baby steps…like ant’s babies size :p
Michael- well said. But it’s John Galt. He has a few fans, still.
Hi Ana!
Here are the baby steps for you, they are called “Fly-ing Lessons”
Stuff you can do, 15 minutes or less
http://www.flylady.net/d/getting-started/flying-lessons/
PS: If it helps, make an awesome cleaning playlist for your iPod. It really helps me.
Also: If people give you lots of extra stuff (money) for the baby shower, getting someone to help around the house once a week is totally worth it. One of my friends who had a baby got that as a gift, plus some other stuff. She said it was really nice to have someone show up and take care of it, since she was so tired and overwhelmed.
I’ve learned that I am “marriage material.” This has been reiterated by nearly every boyfriend I’ve had. Ironically, none of them ever proposed, so does that count as a valid lesson? lol.
‘What’s the problem with alphas, in and of themselves? That’s the question I have.’
Sassy, this is my first comment on HUS and I thought I’d chime in here.
Mike C’s done a good job of responding, but I would add to it. Its not just the idea of being ‘second best’. Its the idea that once a woman has ‘dated’ an alpha, a beta will never be enough. Roissy has commented on this with the ’5 minutes of alpha’ theory. I suggest you google for that phrase and read various posts about it.
She will not be able to properly pair bond with the beta because he won’t excite her enough. This makes the relationship less enjoyable for both of them and also makes it more likely that she will leave or cheat if another alpha swans into her life because she will know what she is missing.
You yourself have stated a preference for alphas. Nothing wrong with that, but I’m guessing you already know that betas will never be enough for you. I’d suggest that every alpha a girl dates makes her less emotionally available for betas. Roissy’s hyperbole explains this. Betas sense it deep down, but when they react to it, its shamed as ‘insecurity’.
Susan Walsh’s history aside, we’ve all come across examples of women pining away for the exciting man of their past; the one who got away. Even when they get married they think about him and he holds prime position in their hearts.
I’m just gonna chime in once and split.
Quite frankly i think it’s got diddly squat to do with alphas. I mean really… who asks their partner “So… how many alpha’s did you sleep with?”
The only thing that really matters is partner count plain and simple. And whether it was an alpha or beta or omega… to the person you’re currently with, they ALL had to have been something important to you and here’s why.
Badger made a comment of supreme revelation to me which i’m going to put up here unmolested.
See, what women fail to understand is that EVERY guy they let inside them is one step of devaluation for the next guy in the line. Sex is the most precious, ULTIMATE gift a woman can grant a man, and the more you’ve had with countless partners, be it alpha or otherwise, you’re cheapening that gift. And men will respond appropriately.
Quite frankly the case could be made that every man a woman sleeps with is Alpha for at least that moment in time, unless she’s mercy fucking the dude. But this whole idea of knowing how many alpha’s she’s done is like trying to figure out how many 2 bit whores vs. christian good girls a player has fucked. Does it matter?
Bottom line, the more you give away your most precious gift as a woman.. the less a man will be willing to view you as special or worthy enough to commit to.
Listen to the Badger. It’s angry and it knows it’s shit.
“she will know what she is missing”
So much for that asinine “promiscuous women are better because they know they are not missing anything” dumb ass self serving justification coming from, uh yeah, promiscuous women. Go figure
“betas will never be enough”
Sorta sucks cuz all the alphas have left the building
“every alpha a girl dates makes her less emotionally available for betas”
But she is quite available to lie about such “dates”
“when they react to it, its shamed as ‘insecurity’”
IOW it “sounds very whiny and not manly at all, not attractive” IOW take the cock I took like a man!
So true about the staring into your partners eyes. I once dated this guy for a long awhile, simply because we got along and it was easy. But whenever I tried to stare into his eyes I felt empty no matter how hard I tried and I feared he felt the same way I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. The eye test is accurate.
From Badger:
That’s the difference in our agendas. ****And women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man**** – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”
Badger truly is supremely gifted at taking a complicated concept and distilling and articulating it perfectly. The part I bolded and asterisked is essentially the entire crux of the issue when women treat different men differently in terms of sexual access.
I’ve pondered why this concept seems so difficult for women to understand. I think I understand what is going on here. It is really a combination of solipsism and projection.
As I’ve said a number of times, any women who isn’t beastly can have sex anytime she wants. Just walk in to a bar, and ask “Which one of you guys want to fuck me tonight”? On the other hand, getting a decent guy to lock it down with her for commitment is much harder.
So. She assumes the guy’s value/priority system is EXACTLY the same as hers. In her mind, to want a guy for long-term boyfriend material is assigning higher value to him than just short-term sex because that is the value system FOR HER.
What Badger articulates above is perhaps one of the most misunderstood concepts I think amongst many women which is also accompanied by a rejection to really want to understand it.
This also gets to issue of a woman changing up her policy on “sexual access”. You see quite often a woman writing in about all the casual sex of hooking up she did, but now she wants to play it different with the potential boyfriend candidate. I really don’t have any good advice in that situation. It goes without saying that any women has the complete right to change her price anytime she wants, but you can’t blame a guy for deciding to walk. Its really a complicated situation with no clear-cut answer to resolution.
Me personally, I don’t bring the anti alpha male mindset many MEN and women bring here, because I’ve had many positive experiences with more alpha men, and I’ve seen many of their attributes as something to shoot for, not something to bemoan. For many men, the root of the negativity is jealousy and envy.
Once guys are more progressed with the red pill they often strive to be more alpha. This is good on the whole and something to aim towards especially with traits such as confidence and assertiveness. Some other commonly defined ‘alpha’ traits such as low impulse control or low agreeableness aren’t necessarily good, which like you’ve said brings up the problem with using ‘alpha’ as a label. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we use the word.
The ‘game’/red pill theory I subscribe to is that of constant self improvement. Rather than complaining about what women want, work at improving yourself until you can attract them and keep them. Its worked well for me so far.
The corollary of this of course is that if women aren’t attracting quality men for relationships, they have no right to complain. They should work on improving themselves too such as how Bellita has.
“A lot of them can’t say no even when the guy is very bad for them”
Did you know that there are legions of promiscuous women trying to constantly cover that fact up with flowery women-in-control euphemisms including “expressing her sexuality” that has now become so transparently stupid that a bastion of new terms is probably in the works.
“Sex is the most precious, ULTIMATE gift a woman can grant a man”
Because women have made such a revolting mess of that gift, they now backpedal with statements such as “there is more to a woman than her crotch” aimed directly at men – not society – just men who would dare be insubordinate and reject women who have no gifts [as solely defined by men] to offer.
Jackie: My mom’s cotillion training has prepared me for even greater heights than social directory of a penal colony. I believe I shall aim higher, Esau, and aspire to better things.
By all means, aim high; but in a rough economy it’s always good to have a fallback option. However, let’s check first that you really have the qualifications.
Do they still teach the old Dreyfus Affair in school any more? The Wikipedia-level refresher is available here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair
and the specific chapter describing life on Devil’s Island is here (warning, descriptions not for the faint-hearted):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_conviction_of_Alfred_Dreyfus
French law apparently had some ups and downs in what treatment was legal; for example, though in solitary confinement Dreyfus was allowed to send and receive mail, though only with his family. His correspondence were of course censored by the authorities; the Wikipedia article describes that “His letters, examined by the administration, were one long cry for justice.”
One long cry for justice; now there’s an example of a “victim mentality” for you! Red flag! Should he ever be released from prison, Captain Dreyfus will surely have to rectify his feelings about injustice before anyone should ever consider dating him, or even going out for drinks.
Best of all, Jackie, is that I can just picture you there, bidding Dreyfus a fond farewell from the island as he’s being transported back to France for re-trial. “Now, Captain, we all get wronged by ‘fate’ sometimes; life is not fair you know! Even though you’ve been the direct … umm … victim of the greatest legal railroading in modern European history, it would be wrong for you to ‘abdicate responsibility’ and ‘lay the blame on ill fortune’. When you go back to face re-trial at the hands of the same corrupt system, try to maintain a positive attitude! At all costs, avoid developing a ‘victim mentality’; remember, no one acquits a whiner. Happy sailing!” Really, you’d be so perfect, I’d hate to see you wasted on any higher ambitions.
Which brings us back to your portentous conclusion:
But I find how people respond to this unfairness extremely telling, if we observe and listen.
And what does a person displaying a “victim mentality” tell you? Sometimes, what it tells you — or what it tells me — is that (1) the person has actually been a victim of injustice, and (2) they value their own humanity enough to protest, rather than silently normalizing injustice through acquiescence to it.
Some other (real) lessons I learned as a single & dating woman:
* The way to a man’s heart may be through his stomach, but his heart will discern genuine love in a meal vs. showing off.
* “You’re marriage material” is promising, but it isn’t equal to “I want to marry you.”
* Vulnerability is precious and valuable. It can occur so unexpectedly, sometimes it’s easy to respond to it incorrectly. That can lead to disaster (loss of trust).
* Genuine romance does not occur at your pace. You have to be patient in receiving the special surprises. Demanding things takes the surprise out of it, causes unneeded stress for you, and annoyance in your partner.
* Somewhat contradictory to that, ask for what you want. Asking (nicely) for something doesn’t make it any less valuable than if your partner thought to give it to you on his/ her own.
So true about the staring into your partners eyes. I once dated this guy for a long awhile, simply because we got along and it was easy. But whenever I tried to stare into his eyes I felt empty no matter how hard I tried and I feared he felt the same way I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. The eye test is accurate.
I’ve done this recently with an attractive girl I’m currently seeing casually. Its accurate, at least for me. This girl is intelligent, feminine, good company, good in bed etc etc. On the face of it a compatible prospect for a relationship.
I screened her and found out she has done threesomes and other adventurous acts in her past. I suspect she has roughly double my N. Not necessarily a problem, because I checked my emotions and they seemed to be holding. No Madonna/Whore flaring up which causes me to reject her out of hand, and I’m on the whole quite comfortable with her past.
What is a problem is that there is an emptiness in her eyes and presence like you’ve described. At some deep undefined level, my gut is telling me she is not partner material. Its important that its not the overt knowledge of her sexual history as I felt this way before the screening and finding out her sexual history. Its the fact that she is not connecting with me. Her ability to pair bond is broken. I strongly suspect that there was an ‘alpha’ in her past that messed her up and she has hinted of abuse in a previous relationship.
It would be impossible for me to open my emotions up to this woman because of the failsafes in my biological programming. This is before I apply rational common sense and red pill theory to what I know about her on a conscious level.
I write about this because I wanted to show an example of how mens’ gut feelings about their womens’ availability shapes whether a girl is considered serious relationship material or not. If a guy ‘feels’ that his girl isn’t strongly bonded to him, then its very likely that there’s no way in hell he would consider marrying her. I say very likely because there’s always idiots out there that don’t listen to their instincts.
Once guys are more progressed with the red pill they often strive to be more alpha. This is good on the whole and something to aim towards especially with traits such as confidence and assertiveness.
Yes, absolutely. Especially because most guys are starting from a point of way too much “betaness”. The problem/issue for most guys isn’t that they are too much “alpha asshat” and need to tone it down, but that they are too much “supplicating beta” and needs to “balls up”.
Some other commonly defined ‘alpha’ traits such as low impulse control or low agreeableness aren’t necessarily good, which like you’ve said brings up the problem with using ‘alpha’ as a label. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we use the word.
Right. Which means that often many people are talking past each other when we start talking about alphas versus betas as nouns and individual men. Susan can correct me if I am wrong, but my clear sense is when she talks about alphas she really is focusing mostly if not exclusively on the things like disagreeablenss and low impulse control instead of the things like confidence, assertiveness, and leadership. When I think of guy exhibiting alpha traits, I’m not exclusively thinking of douchebags who shotgun a beer while popping a wheely or some other nonsense.
The ‘game’/red pill theory I subscribe to is that of constant self improvement. Rather than complaining about what women want, work at improving yourself until you can attract them and keep them.
Could not have said it any better.
The corollary of this of course is that if women aren’t attracting quality men for relationships, they have no right to complain. They should work on improving themselves too such as how Bellita has.
Well….yup. Its interesting because any guy including myself who didn’t have the success he thought he should be having at some point with women realized he had to work on the things to boost sexual attractiveness. Some guys can’t accept this, and stay in a state of always complaining. Its my sense women by and large are still fighting and struggling with this…to really internalize they HAVE TO DO THE THINGS to boost their “relationship attractiveness”. My sense is many women are still stuck in the “a guy should love me for who I am mentality” instead of realizing that perhaps many changes need to be made in order to make herself an attractive LTR or marriage candidate. I know a few women close to me who seem to want to fight making changes tooth and nail.
If a guy ‘feels’ that his girl isn’t strongly bonded to him, then its very likely that there’s no way in hell he would consider marrying her. I say very likely because there’s always idiots out there that don’t listen to their instincts.
Infantry,
I think there are women who can fake this quite effectively. IDK. Not sure if you know my history from past comments, but my ex-wife was my first sex partner, and first serious love. I did have some sex partners and girls I dated in between as we were on an off for years prior to getting married.
Looking back, at the time, I thought she was strongly bonded to me, but I think I did have some warnings from my instincts. IDK. Its actually hard for me to remember it all, as I think I’ve psychologically blocked out much of my recollection of her and our time together.
IDK, hindsight is 20/20 and I read a lot of stories about guys who married a woman and years later are shell-shocked when she ends up either leaving the guys or cheating.
I guess you should be able to tell when a woman is showing a lack of true connection/strong bond, but I think it can be tricky to suss out one faking it.
My sense is many women are still stuck in the “a guy should love me for who I am mentality” instead of realizing that perhaps many changes need to be made in order to make herself an attractive LTR or marriage candidate. I know a few women close to me who seem to want to fight making changes tooth and nail.
I suspect the culture of entitlement and ‘team women’ group think makes it harder for women to shake it off. The media and society constantly points at men being the problem. There’s only a few smaller outposts such as the Manosphere that argue the opposite, although its getting very common to see red pill theory spouted in online comments of mainstream media and news sites these days.
For a woman to sit down independently and apply common sense, while ignoring her peers and the media.. well it takes a special kind of woman, which is why people like Bellita are held in high esteem by many men. I suspect a lot of the ‘what can I do to fix this?’ type of women are far more likely to be snapped up for relationships.
@Esau (#146)
Hi Esau,
Have you done any reading or research on victim mentality? I’m not using it as a glib expression: Here is a wiki article (tho the term they use is “victim playing”): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing
(Eric Berne’s _Transactional Analysis_ is a *fantastic* read that describes victim mentality in much greater [and absolutely riveting] detail, by the way.)
Victim mentality is defined as “the fabrication of victim-hood for a variety of reasons such as to justify abuse of others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy or attention seeking.” In other words, the antithesis of an actual victim.
Esau, the Dreyfus affair was truly a terrible story. I hope I would never be guilty of victim-blaming. Can you not see the difference between my example of Mr. Rochester using “fate” to justify his promiscuity and self-pity and yours? According to the article you cited, Dreyfus was described as “stoical and forgave his tormentors.”
Esau, have I offended you in some way? You suggest that I am perfect to be the social director of a notorious penal colony in a mocking and sarcastic tone. If I’ve done something, please let me know. I know I have many faults and would rather improve than continue to offend you, if that is in fact what has happened.
Thank you, Esau, for considering my request.
I guess you should be able to tell when a woman is showing a lack of true connection/strong bond, but I think it can be tricky to suss out one faking it.
I agree with what you’re saying and I was aware of your history. I’m not saying your gut should be the ultimate arbiter of whether we get into relationships. I’ve been caught off guard or at least had my gut feelings obfuscated by the strong attraction and emotions I’ve felt around certain women before. I know that its not this loud and clear alarm bell that always rings to save us from getting involved with the wrong women.
Screening was developed as another fail-safe that could be used in conjunction with a guys instincts to determine whether a girl is ‘safe’ for a relationship. In a way it was kind of like a checklist so that a guy could get a second opinion outside of his own emotions. eg:
if N>20 then not partner material
if sex acts include threesomes then not partner material
if eyes light up when talking about an ex then not partner material
if poor financial history then not partner material
etc etc..
But screening in itself is not 100% accurate at predicting a happy future either and you can see how clunky and black and white it can be by looking at the above. Context is everything. I think a combination of both instincts and strong background screening should be used over an extended period of time to make the decision. Its not 100% fool proof, but its the best we’ve got.
As an aside, I find it interesting that some of the better red pill guys have developed advanced methods of screening girls by copying female shit test tactics. As always, look at what they do, not at what they say.
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