Or: The Importance of Dating, Part II
Happy Friday, HUSies. I promised a post on the important things I learned from dating men before I met my husband. Most importantly, I learned I didn’t want to marry them. I don’t think they wanted to marry me either.
One of the problems with hookup culture is that very few people are getting a chance to do relationships with training wheels. As we saw in the previous post, during the era when people went steady they were essentially “playing house” as a pretend married couple. If and when those relationships ended, both parties walked away with a set of experiences and hopefully, lessons learned. Of course, some people get lucky and meet the love of their lives early on and live happily ever after. But most of us benefit from the opportunity to do a couple of trial runs.
One helpful thing about the current SMP is that red flags are everywhere! Assuming you don’t grow immune to acts of douchebaggery, a young woman can learn a lot about who not to date, just by observing others. She doesn’t even need to make mistakes first hand! When you do date someone who makes it through the character filter, you’ll learn a lot about loving, compromising, resolving conflict and what you need and want in a mate.
Here are the best lessons I learned while seriously dating men I didn’t marry, in no particular order. Yours will be different.
1. When one person is neat and one person is messy, the messy person should do all the compromising.
I used to be messy. My boyfriend was super neat. My messiness drove hms crazy. In contrast, his neatness was always a pleasant surprise to me, like elves had come in during the night and done all the work. I had to become a neat person, it seemed like the right thing to do. My husband is neater than I am, but on a scale of 1-10 I get a solid 7.5 for neatness nowadays.
2. Stoics and emos don’t mix.
I’m on the emo end of the spectrum. I love pillow talk and mushy moments and romantic gestures. And when there’s conflict I want to resolve it quickly by talking it through. I need a man who has emotions and shows them. I can’t make it work with a strong, silent type.
I am also a sucker for glimpses of the boy he once was. I remember one boyfriend broke his arm, and for some reason I thought he looked so hot with that cast. It was like looking at a 7th grade version of him or something. Adorable. I also fall to pieces when I see a guy’s boyhood bedroom.
3. Sexual compatibility is mostly about sex drive.
As long as two people are open to new things and invested in pleasing one another, I think what to do and how to do it are the easy part. The hard part, in my experience is when. We like to joke that guys want sex all the time, but they do vary. Some guys aren’t up for it when they have a lot on their mind. Some guys want it several times a day no matter what, especially early on.
I went to college during an era when the sexes didn’t have much access to one another on campus. Finding a way to have sex could be a challenge. A car was ideal, but if you didn’t have one all sorts of furtive arrangements were required. This meant that having sex once or twice a week was doable, but there were no lazy mornings in bed followed by brunch. It wasn’t until I went to Europe with my boyfriend that I learned that given the opportunity to have sex six times a day, he wasn’t into it. There is nothing worse than climbing into bed for some sexy time and hearing a curt “Good night.” Of course, he thought I was a nymphomaniac. I thought that was a good thing! Our relationship didn’t last long after that trip.
4. You have to laugh at the same stuff.
Most women say that a sense of humor is very important to them in a mate. But there are many kinds of humor, and many different facets of humor. I love sharing the same funny bone. I dated one guy who found The Three Stooges hilarious. I don’t. I dated another who didn’t appreciate John Cleese’s Ministry of Silly Walks. I do. These small bits of incompatibility kill attraction for me.
In a relationship I like a bit of silliness, inside jokes, goofy nicknames, etc. My husband and I trade funny tidbits every day, and have for 30 years. Laughter is the best tension reducer I know, and it’s not unusual for one of us to start laughing even during an argument. Of course, that only happens if the argument is stupid, but it’s a great way to diffuse anger.
For me, another critical element is the ability to laugh at oneself. I believe this is the genius of Larry David, Woody Allen and Lena Dunham. I love people who can do it, and I generally steer clear of people who are unable to do it.
5. 90% of the time eyes tell the story.
If you look into someone’s eyes and read their micro facial expressions, particularly during intimate moments, you will see a map of what they are feeling. If the eyes are dead or cold, the relationship is dead and cold. You should see a softening, a certain kind of lifting at the corners of the mouth, a longing, and a deep, penetrative gaze. Never marry anyone you cannot read this way.
6. One significant lie in a relationship spoils it forever.
Whether it’s cheating, his not being honest about his past, or some other major aspect of his life, if your boyfriend tells you a whopper, he’s just kicked away a chunk of the foundation, and your relationship is unstable. Before marriage, lying should be an immediate and non-negotiable dealbreaker.
7. If he’s jealous and possessive, the relationship is doomed.
If you are dating someone who feels threatened by your behavior or is insecure in your affection, stick a fork in it. You are either out of his league, too demanding of attention from others, or he can sense that you are not nearly as invested as he is. Some of this often comes up in the early days, and it can help to learn what the other person finds threatening. But if this continues over time, the relationship is not tenable. Either (or neither) party may be at fault, but the point is, it’s not a good match.
8. Passions are a must.
I like men who have strong opinions and strong interests. I recall being super turned off that my college bf had no opinion whatsoever about a Presidential election. I love it that my husband has informed views. I also love it that he is very loyal to the Red Sox (going back to a time when they sucked). Here are some of the things I have found sexually attractive in men:
- deep love and abiding passion for grandparents’ summer cabin on a lake
- loyalty to sports teams
- deep and broad knowledge of music
- a firm conviction that The Beatles are the greatest band ever
- watching Godfather and Godfather II a minimum of twice a year
- keeping the Bill James baseball encyclopedia on the night table
- being a Big Brother
- playing chess regularly
- strong interest in reading history
The only way people can be boring is if they don’t have any interests or don’t talk about them. I’ve dated some boring guys.
9. Impulsive acts destabilize relationships.
Some people like to keep things edgy and unpredictable. I am not one of those people. Crazy plans on the spur of the moment are not fun for me. I’m not talking about skinny dipping, I’m talking about calling in sick to work and flying to the Caribbean on a whim for a week. Or buying a new car when you can’t afford it. Or quitting a job because “those people are driving me crazy.” Or any behavior showing a failure to comprehend that credit card spending will have to be dealt with at some future point.
My idea of crazy is a Bloody Mary on a Sunday morning. Don’t pair up with a dopamine chaser if you’re not one yourself.
10. When it’s right, it feels easy.
Everyone says marriage is such hard work. Meh. I think it’s easy if you marry the right person. If you have doubts, feel angsty, or have a lot of conflict in a relationship, end it. Opposites may attract but research shows they don’t marry well. If you find yourself having fights just to get to the makeup sex, the breakup is long overdue.
You should never, ever walk up the aisle if you don’t feel the urge to run up the aisle instead. You should be chomping at the bit to make your commitment official. One doubt is too many. It goes without saying you should be on the same page re children, including the timing, the number, and how you want to raise them. Never, ever leave a major issue to be negotiated after marriage, and hoping to change someone’s mind after marriage is a fool’s errand.
There will be challenges and crises in every life, including married life. Having a close relationship with your partner helps you weather them together.
{ 677 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Infantry
“Its very rare to come across an attractive girl that through experience you’re pretty sure isn’t seeing anyone else. If I found someone like this and we were compatible… well I’d stop caring about my other plates pretty damned quickly.”
I get it. But there are a couple of challenges that I see: there is a lot of JV plate spinning going on and the female version can be quite elastic. Part of my point is that there is a disincentive to drop those other plates from the get-go (unilateral reduction of options), so the natural bar of attraction is artificially raised based on the proxy effect of those other men/women in play. And because this is the state of the current SMP, there are many people who are not as targeted, disciplined, confident, or honest as you may be in your approach and thus the act of dropping those plates is anything but smooth. I may have an exaggerated view of the multiple-dating scenarios, but I guess I also prefer to date one of those attractive women who I am pretty sure are not seeing anyone else at a time. Mind you, this strategy is currently under review…
As for the women I have encountered, I have been surprised by how late in the game they even ask those questions of me. Being the newbie that I am, I just assumed that they would expect that I was only dating them. Turns out most not only assume that I am dating others (even sexually), but also that I have at least at some point been a player of some kind. (Not true in either case) And never have either of these issues presented an impediment their attraction to me. Subsequently, I have had to really think about what this means for me in my approach and how I view the female version of the irons-in-the-fire approach. In my limited experience, I tend to find women exercising multiple optionality to be less attractive, too risky. I have yet to experience one of those woman who can and will drop those plates completely. Put them in the cupboard, sure, but drop them?
You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.
”You crack me up young man, how old are you? Angelina is 37, probably well above those 10 years up you’re talking about.”
20 years old. Angelina Jolie is an exception because she’s been in most of my non-porn masturbation sessions and she’s so damn exotic, exactly what I love in women; tall, full lips, thick dark hair, big boobs, and a nice butt.
@INTJ
a mix of 2 and 3. As it’s Your Own Way you can get game and casually search for a relationship. Just make sure that your spotted dick is up to snuff and the woman is nice hot custard – You enjoy you life and she just adds to that. I don’t understand why men say that they’re going their own way and let someone else define the path.
@ Michael
Just goes to show that if you be an Alpha depending on the woman and what she’s into.
Heh, nice work. I suspect Sassy has a more classical definition of Alpha though.
I should probably get back into the bookstores. Some of the girls in there are just my type.
@Susan (#357)
Aww, thanks for the kind words, Susan!
I was reflecting, We are all here on the same journey, for the same reason. And I bet everyone posting has been the guy who got dumped or the girl who couldn’t get a date, at one point in their lives. Even the players have problems!
It’s easy to forget that, sometimes.
My two favorite XKCD cartoons:
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png
http://xkcd.com/386/
Didn’t I mentioned that I quit Korean Dramas in my third “every good girl/guy dies” viewing?
Oh, then you know more about this stuff then I do. I have only seen a few, and they were in “the background”.
She didn’t have a ring on her finger but she might have just taken the ring and gone to the bookstore trolling for dick, lol.
Wow if this is your underline thinking everytime you see a woman without the ring no wonder you think of us as merely sluts for the use and nothing more. Good luck with that.
My Milage is not going anywhere near the book, movies or twilight-moms.
I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?
It sounds like I chose the wrong dreck for my example, I bow to your greater knowledge ‘Oh Wise One’! Have you a better example that I should have used? I feels like such a true meme, but I can’t think of an example
You are probably mocking me but I don’t care. I particularly hate love triangles, loving two people at the same time? Yeah right. So I barely pick those ones but if my friends are to be believed Anita Blake’s series is about that since she comes back and forth from banging both males without knowing wich ones loves her the most, which is the reason she can’t decide is not about what she feels but what men (well werewolf and vampire) shows the most dedication.
The trope is as old as feudalism though, what it was Helen of Troy,Brunhild or Atalanta myths about? Men competing for this women, in Troy it was against each other while Atalanta was the one needing a man that could outmatch her so not sure if we could blame this on romance only once upon a time men did competed for women and it was part of life so it might be a mix of ancient vestiges and romantization, YMMV.
I’ll aplaud this, even if no one else would.
The history of my life…thanks for the sentiment though.
@Just1X
“Suicide after divorce is more a male phenomenum than a female one. Men shouldn’t be that committed to relationship that they kill themselves when it’s over. (The theory works for women too, I suspect, but men are clearly the true romantics over marriage).”
I suspect that most of those suicides are due to the economic strain and/or child custody issues that result from divorce as opposed to the romantic loss. Not that men don’t feel those romantic things, but I assure you that when I was asked to vacate my position as a partner, the devastation would have been tenfold had I not had the option of crafting my post-divorce life free of economic burdens tied to the ex and/or the financial-emotional strain of even ‘shared/joint’ custody. While I still lost most of my net worth and my lifestyle, other relationships, etc. I wasn’t over a barrel or locked into a certain job, city, and/or other twisted arrangements that basically meant I would remain financially married to the situation, but without any of the benefits. The custody and alimony shit sammy that gets handed down – particularly to those men who were already lacking economic stability, let alone mobility, are what drive those men to swallow shotguns – or worse.
‘heh, nice work. I suspect Sassy has a more classical definition of Alpha though.”
Yeah, but Sassy is in the top 20% in terms of looks, at least that’s what I’ve gathered from her posts. Her Alpha type is probably an Apex Alpha male, something like Brad Pitt looks when he was in his prime, Michael Jordan Height etc etc.
For average to attractive women a ”mere” Alpha is enough, I think.
I run away after 2weeks of dating because I knew his eagerness to escalade sexually and be in a relationship was just a way for him to secure a permanent sex partner, regardless of who it was (he didn’t really knew me at all).
And THIS, gentlemen, is precisely what women mean when they write the words “nice guy” in quotes and say they don’ like “nice guys.”
@ Mike C
To tell you the truth, I really have no idea if she was going on other dates during our first few dates. But it became clear very quickly, she was very interested as she did the emotional escalation quickly, and we were very compatible personality types.
I’ve had similar, but without the girl emotionally escalating. This made me suspect enemy action. Either that or I didn’t float her boat, heh.
Typical PUA theory is not to worry about other guys. If she’s compatible and you make a good connection, the other guys will disappear. I think this works for both genders (except the commitment avoiders).
But Kudos to you man. That’s great and I hope to find something similar.
@ Tasmin
Part of my point is that there is a disincentive to drop those other plates from the get-go (unilateral reduction of options), so the natural bar of attraction is artificially raised based on the proxy effect of those other men/women in play.
Yes, I agree. Like I stated previously I like to keep the plates to an average of 2 to avoid keeping that bar unrealistically high, because I believe the effects are cumulative; at least up until the ceiling of 5 which is about all any man could have time for if he sees them regularly. Every additional plate also hampers screening efforts (and potentially bonding) because your attention is split.
I want my screening (and bonding capacity) to be at its peak because of the priority I’m placing on finding a LTR candidate.
As for the women I have encountered, I have been surprised by how late in the game they even ask those questions of me.
Yes, I was also surprised when girls wouldn’t ask me if I was seeing anyone else. But this goes both ways. There’s a lot of shadow boxing going on.
My advice is to not feel guilty exploring plate spinning, but act with honesty and integrity as you understand those words. If a girl asks you a question, give her an honest answer. Just be sure to answer with an unrepentant demeanour and with solid eye contact.
As an aside years ago I remember feeling so guilty for lining up two dates in one week when I hadn’t even so much as kissed either girl.
You’ve got some great perspectives here, thanks for sharing.
Thanks mate, appreciate that. Now its bedtime in my country, so adieu.
To wake up and see Jackie in the crosshairs of an attack from anyone is surreal. The internet’s kindest, gentlest soul is dodging sniper fire. This unmade my day.
I find an inability to talk civilly to either Jackie or Hope to be a huge red flag. If you can’t be civil to them , then you probably can’t be civil to anyone.
“it doesn’t count as sex because it was just a random liaison”
According to some, rape is not sex. So then, is the new term “consensual rape?”
Niles: “so amber, how many guys did you have sex with”
Amber: “well five were sex, 23 were fun consensual rape while on vacation and you know, we have all been reprogrammed to accept that does not count as sex. So, yeah, five men”
@Hope
Yep, you definitely lucked out with your NF man! Smellwise and otherwise.
@Jackie and Ted
Yes, Jackie, the quantification attempts boggle me because one woman’s 6 is another woman’s 8. I mean, I know that if you ask 5000 people to vote on someone’s appearance, there will be a mean number to be had, but that’s clearly not how things work on an individual level. If I find someone’s personality and character appealing, their physical exterior becomes more beautiful to me and I consequently would value them more than the population at large would.
Which brings me to Ted. I really think it’s interesting how we both extrapolated upon the George Clooney example. Here I was, in my mind, imagining a soulful, intelligent and beautiful woman — maybe a Jackie type. Maybe Clooney comes to town on a movie shoot. He meets Miss Jackie while on location at the university library. Perhaps she’s there to lead her book group with her mentees and they meet cute. The book group girls are swarming him for autographs and he’s impressed with her caring and composure. Perhaps they go on several dinner dates while he’s in town and Jackie realizes that he’s good at playing humble and courtly but that his ego is just a little too big. They don’t follow through beyond the dinner dates. Jackie has learned that she’d prefer someone whose life isn’t quite so abundant and hectic because no one can keep their ego in check while living so large.
Meanwhile, Ted extrapolates in a different direction. He notes that Clooney and the hypothetical woman (I’ll leave Jackie out of this example) are having unparalleled alpha sex. And this is not the first time for her. According to Ted, “she has spent the last several relationships with alpha types.” So she’s not only a Clooney-dater, but a carousel hopper with an insatiable taste for alpha. Poor girl! Her only hope is that the memory erasing technology developed in the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind actually becomes available.
In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.
So interesting how our minds spin out hypothetical stories based on a few key words, i.e., “had a relationship with Clooney.” Rather than revealing any wisdom about the dating population at large, it seems like we’re exposing our biggest fears.
@Mike C (#398)
“Let me take the “lying by omission” first. Really, the expression is nonsensical. Lying implies false words being spoken, not the absence of providing information. ”
This is totally unrelated to dating, but related to LBO. I was talking to a friend who was telling me their insurance company did this. They changed the rate without mentioning it to the employees, just automatically deducted an extra hundred dollars. This purely anecdotal, obviously.
But I have seen some shady things with backdating and postdating checks and memos, where it has hurt the most vulnerable, least powerful people: Deception via omission is what it seems like to me. What would be a better term for it? In the instances I observed it was incredibly off-putting.
“carousel hopper with an insatiable taste for alpha. Poor girl! Her only hope is that the memory erasing technology developed in the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind actually becomes available.”
In reality, her only hope is to teach her daughter not to do the same. That is, if she can find a man willing to let her be the mother of his children.
@Ana
“You are probably mocking me but I don’t care”
I was ABSOLUTELY NOT mocking you, I don’t nastily mock people that I like (though I go too far at times with friends). It’s a figure of speech that I use IRL, when people see my palms down bowing down and big smile on my face, they understand that I’m not having a dig. So, my bad for not adding a smiley.
Also, you truly do have a wealth of knowledge in this area. The closest I got was reading the Hunger Games (which I don’t really see as chick-lit or even teen-lit for that matter). Must get that disc when it comes out.
Pennies – “Rather than revealing any wisdom about the dating population at large, it seems like we’re exposing our biggest fears.”
I think it was in this thread, but somewhere on HUS I recently posted that indeed I do “fear” comparisons to previous casual sex encounters from my mate because I have never had one myself and cannot comprehend the dynamics. So yes, I fear being compared to previous casual partners because I simply DO NOT know how I would stack up. However I’ve spent most of my life in LTRs and am fully confident in my abilities to kick ass and take names in that department. Now that I’ve found the red pill(and once I’m done choking on it) I will be an unstoppable force to be reconned with in the MMP. But I will never hold my own in the casual market. I’m not equipped to compete there, and my lack of experience would sink me like the Titanic.
But I have seen some shady things with backdating and postdating checks and memos, where it has hurt the most vulnerable, least powerful people: Deception via omission is what it seems like to me. What would be a better term for it? In the instances I observed it was incredibly off-putting
I would like a feminist term (please don’t throw rocks at me) withdrawing consent. Mostly because the person keeping the information does so to avoid the other person having information that might change their mind about keeping the relationship going.
PS
Haven’t all of you noticed how morally relativist we are? I mean we are murky in gray areas looking for a way to win AND still feel we are good…freaking crazy, signs of the times I guess.
Anacaona, I haven’t watched many Korean films, but I have watched a number of anime and have read Japanese manga. The romance written by female authors always have multiple guys competing for one girl, and the romance written by male authors always have multiple girls competing for one guy. It seems to be a very common plot device. Another common one is to suddenly have another competitor show up, so instead of a love triangle it starts to look like a square.
Jackie, I agree with you about deception by omission 100%. I would much rather lay it all out on the table upfront and compare. I think the best defense against this type of deception is tell your own story first, then ask, ask and ask. Shady and secretive can’t last in the face of a light being shined on them. Really, most of the time, people will tell you what you need to know. You do have to read between the lines and listen to your intuition.
@Ana
“I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?”
In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…
Reckoned lol… Stupid autocorrect.
I think the whole “spinning plates” thing is complicated when you put casual sex in the mix.
I get dating more than 1 person at a time to avoid one-itis. It’s good strategy to not get so fixated on one person. Not to mention, if you keep your dating in the dating scene it saves you time versus leaving the game each and every time you meet someone with potential.
It’s how I went about online dating. If things fizzled with a guy it wasn’t such a big deal when I was talking to at least 1 other dude. Remember, girls can get one-itis too. It’s not just a beta male afflication (though many guys on here speak as if they corner the market on this phenomenon!).
I always wanted to avoid building my expectations too high and/or coming off clingy (Sometimes I did, other times I didn’t do this as well). I assumed the guys I was talking to were pursuing other girls as well because I’m a realist, haha (I’m pragmatic optimist).
However, I was NOT hooking up/sexing up mulitple guys!
“Dating” to me means getting to know a potential romantic partners by going out on actual dates and conversation via phone/email/text. Kissing is not a preresiquite (i.e., the idea that every date must end in a kiss). It’s about determining if the two of you are compatible for a relationship and seeing if there’s physical chemistry between you both. You don’t have to have sex to know if you want to be exclusive with someone!
Once I found a guy I wanted to be exclusive with we had the “define the relationship” talk and went from there. I stopped talking to/looking for other guys. It turns out he had stopped logging into the site once he met me!
It all worked out for the best. As I look back, I have no regrets about the previous guys I went out with. I didn’t compromise myself or my values (my N=2).
@ Jimmy Hendricks:
I take issue with this!
If a guy is getting regular sex through a FWB or ONS then he’s likely to have an issue with this. The type of guy who never goes longer than 2 weeks without sex even when he’s single is going to scoff at the idea that he should abstain from hooking up with other girls even if he’s met a really good potential relationship girl (i.e., he won’t stop boning other girls until they talk about exclusivity).
But the thing is not all guys are like that! A dude who is getting that much sex is a player in my eyes because he is hooking up and getting casual sex from multiple women on a regular basis.
The average guy is not out there grabbing that much strange! (Just like the average women isn’t that promiscuous either!) And, average guys are out there pursuing women for relationships all the same. To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t not pass the smell test.
Not to mention -
SW @ #358:
+1,000,000
Also, I think it’s tacky and gross not to mention that you’re sleeping with other people when dating someone!
Yes, when a woman states that she is “well traveled” do take it as a slut tell and if she makes you wait for sex beyond the first date then dump her for being a dishonest manipulator.
I dunno. If 40% of women slut around when abroad, that still means 60% don’t–that’s the majority. I’m relatively well travelled and have never had sex outside of US borders. I’d be pretty offended if a man reacred to me IRL as some of you guys reacted here.
@Pennies
You exactly made my point. You have to pick someone because their goals and yours are the same and you have similar values. I agree, GC and that woman would have never worked because GC has sworn never to marry, like EVER. Every year, we see him at the oscars with a new woman, those idiots try and when they see he won’t bulge, they quit. It has nothing to do with them. The Cloon has already made a commitment to HIMSELF that he will never put a ring on it. Men have to understand this. When I get a partner that shares my goals and values, I ALWAYS upgrade! Who cares if an idiot dumped me for something less satisfying? More opportunity to go after what I really want. The one I would say is that women have to be fast at detecting those differences in values and life goals and not get caught up in the chase for status over the other women, that’s the waste of time.
Another thing is avoiding women who have never dated GC is just half the job, gotta make sure she never meets him (or his lookikes); that’ll keep one in fear and sleepless. If a woman grows dissatisfied very fast, has no patience or doesn’t want to make the efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal, that tells you everything you need to know about her, without making dating her an archeological expedition.
Crap! Double negative..
*facepalm*
I meant:
To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test.
”That is, if she can find a man willing to let her be the mother of his children.”
Might not be as hard as it seems. My mother used to babysit this woman who is now 33 and an engineer. She met her ex co-habitation husband when she was 18 and he was already 30 and with a family to boot. She stole the husband from his family, financially supported him, but kicked him out after he punched her in the face.
A month after that unfortunate incident she’s already to be married to a sweet, nice beta that was pinning for her since.. she was 18 and makes more money than her; he’s already spending money on his stepdaughter by sending her to vacation in Brazil.
So we could say this young woman spent her late teens and all of her 20′s having steamy Alpha sex and kicked her out when she couldn’t afford to have him around the house anymore and cashed in on her fading looks by fishing the beta male from her ocean of beta orbiters(and she’s obese!The orbiters are in decent shape).
@Tasmin
yeah, my divorce was very painful and there were no kids and no great financial loss. I can only imagine how much worse it is to lose access to your kids.
Anacaona, I haven’t watched many Korean films, but I have watched a number of anime and have read Japanese manga. The romance written by female authors always have multiple guys competing for one girl, and the romance written by male authors always have multiple girls competing for one guy. It seems to be a very common plot device. Another common one is to suddenly have another competitor show up, so instead of a love triangle it starts to look like a square.
Yeah I do remember those but in must shonen’s and shojo the leads are more annoyed at this than flattered and is more a tongue in cheek than real “Oh I don’t know who I love the most…” sort of game and there is no doubt they are going to end up together somehow. I think is different from the “lets him and you or lets she and her fight” described here that implies a real coldness on the object of affection just waiting for the winner to claim their prize with no concerns of other traits, at least I think so.
In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…
Okay.
#442
”elf slut shaming is a real lesson teacher. Female lurkers take note”
I know this is a typo but hahaha! I’m sure Galadriel and Nenya agree
@J (#464)
being grouped in with Hope is a huge compliment!
Thank you muchly, J
To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test.
It’s ironic that you put it that way since there is some research showing that women can smell when a man is getting “pre-selective” sex..
@Ted
“So yes, I fear being compared to previous casual partners because I simply DO NOT know how I would stack up.”
And it’s really, really cool that you’re sharing your vulnerabilities. Me, I worry (as you can see from *my* Clooney story) about good personality fit/moral compatibility/shared interests.
But what’s interesting is that some men here assume that what they fear is actually what’s happening.
Mireille – “The one I would say is that women have to be fast at detecting those differences in values and life goals and not get caught up in the chase for status over the other women, that’s the waste of time.”
The problem here is: most women that make a habit of being with “alpha” men ARE in it for the status to some extent. Why else would they willingly let someone treat them badly?
“Another thing is avoiding women who have never dated GC is just half the job, gotta make sure she never meets him (or his lookikes); that’ll keep one in fear and sleepless.”
Not exactly. I have no problem with my SO thinking GC is attractive. Hell I’m a VERY straight man and I will admit that GC is damn good looking. But, there is a BIG difference between a woman that simply thinks GC is hot, and a woman that wants a GC for her very own, and has pursued that goal and failed. Because, to be honest, I would never believe she totally gave up that search, and even if she did, it still means she “settled” for me because she couldn’t get what she really wanted. I’m looking for the women that never dated a GC because she knows before she even tries that it isn’t what she wants. Then there is NO doubt in my mind that I’m her consolation prize.
” If a woman grows dissatisfied very fast, has no patience or doesn’t want to make the efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal, that tells you everything you need to know about her, without making dating her an archeological expedition.”
LOL. Sorry but IMHO it IS indeed an archaeological dig to even get the info you stated above. How am I going to know if:
she has patience
will make efforts/sacrifices to reach a goal
IF
I don’t ask her details about her past?
This is where the issue is for me. I want to know how she acted in her previous relationships PRECISELY because I want to know what to expect if I get with her. And I really don’t care how much “change of heart” she had at some point if it isn’t backed by at least a few years of “good behavior” to prove it. Ideally a possible mate would be a woman that has had several LTRs since her teens, but no casual sex at all. Even though her past LTRs didn’t work out, they lasted long enough to get past the “new” stages which proves she can commit and work with someone long term. None of her previous partners would be asshats or cads, and most if not all of those LTRs should have ended amicably, although continued contact with those exes *might* be a red flag to me. I’d have to suss out how those relationships work to be sure.
Each and every casual partner detracts from this ideal, and adds more complexity in my discovery phase with a new partner. Recent casual activity would get her ejected right off the bat, where as if she had casual encounters in the past but has spent her recent past in serious LTRs then I might overlook it, unless those casual encounter were with GC like men. In that case, the concern that she would “relapse” into alpha hunting would bother me too much to attempt going further.
Call me paranoid if you want. Shame me for being insecure, but it is MY future we are talking about, and I’ve already dodged complete financial ruin once in Family Court. (Although I’m still digging out of the whole it made…) I will NOT be ashamed that I’m demanding a lot from a woman, because I’m offering a lot. In fact, at my age (almost 42) I pretty much accept that fact that no woman will meet my ideal, and many simply won’t deserve my commitment at this point. For now that’s fine because I found someone that actually isn’t too far from my ideal, but the older I get the less likely I am to find such a woman again. So, I’ve accepted the fact that this will be my last marriage, regardless of how things turn out. If for any reason I find myself single again, things will be VERY different. To be frank, my current SO was lucky, because I am now fully aware of my value, and I wont be easy to snag again.
@pennies
“In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.”
Excellent post.
@Just1X
“@Ana
“I’m curious where did you got this idea then if you have no a SO in your life that express this?”
In the flashes I saw of trailers on TV – before my hand could grab the remote…”
Riiiiight.
That’s OK, Just1X, if you’re a secret Twilight fan, I won’t tell a soul.
BTW, I totally agree on those Hunger Game books and movies– I am psyched! I don’t care who they are for!
No, but Frontline/Nova/PBS sent a crew there that were able to interview people with hidden cameras.
The crew had 2 Englishmen and 1 Canadian. The locals kept on referring to each of them as being American. After this one guy was corrected, he finally said, “It doesn’t matter. You are white and you speak English, therefore, you are American.”
The N Korean guy then rattled off some sort of ” … you blood-thirsty raping Capitalists”, with a smirk, communicating that he did not believe these things but he knew what he was supposed to say.
It was interesting.
The crew here once got into a heated debate over immigration. I remember seeing a study that showed each countries interest in having more immigration (i.e. 32% of Greeks want more immigration, 15% of Swedes, etc.)
The country that came in #1 by a long shot was South Korea, for obvious reasons.
Pennies – “Me, I worry (as you can see from *my* Clooney story) about good personality fit/moral compatibility/shared interests.”
To be honest, I’m not a fan of “people” in general, so anyone that I find myself wanting to talk to is already a rarity. I find that of those few people I tend to get along VERY well with them, so I don’t have a fear of compatibility so much. Also, I’ve said here before that I’ve never found myself wanting for a mate since I entered my first LTR at 16. Sure, there were periods of time between relationships where I was single, but looking back I can see that even when I complained I wasn’t finding anyone, I really wasn’t putting in the effort TO find someone. (basically I just wasn’t ready to try again, despite my bitching…) And at that, the longest I’ve been “single” (without a LTR mate) since the first is about 9 months. So not only do I NOT worry about compatibility, I honestly don’t see finding love as an issue. Every single time I’ve set out to find a mate, I’ve done so in relatively short order.
The funny thing is, I’ve only been cheated on once, and it was near the end of my first LTR. (I was 19 and she was 21. We were both very young and stupid…) So I don’t have a lot of cheating in my past to be so gun shy of past casual partners. Yet I have this very deep issue with it, mostly because I really don’t understand it at all. I’ve only had sex with women I loved (as much as I understood love at the time) so I honestly worry that the allure of casual sex is strong for people that have had a lot of it. And, since I’ve never done it, I simply don’t know how well I’d rank if I had to. Or, put another way, I feel inadequate because I want my mate to “want” me just as much as she “wanted” her previous casual partners WITHOUT the added benefit I get from her loving me. I want her to be THAT attracted to me AND love me, which I get is a very tall order.
“In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing”
To be honest, I think this scenario would require a woman that has WAY more self knowledge and introspection than the average woman on the street. If we are talking about 20-somethings, I’d be DAMN shocked if you could find 10 women that had any clue about “aligning morals” and “what to look for” in a guy. Now, if we move that up to 30-somethings that have spent a decade riding the carousel? Yeah, there are TONS of them that can and do think like this. But, I and guys like me ARE THEIR SECOND OPTION because they didn’t manage to snag an alpha in their 20′s. Again, no thanks.
“best fit” sounds an awful lot to me like “I can’t get a hot 10 alpha to be my man, so I guess I can settle for how you look since you will commit to me.” Can you honestly say that sounds like a good deal for any man?
BTW, I totally agree on those Hunger Game books and movies– I am psyched! I don’t care who they are for!
Mmm was this for me? I’m not a fan of HG.
“It doesn’t matter. You are white and you speak English, therefore, you are American.”
Heh we use to call people Americans regardless American’s from France, Americans from Italy or if the person insist too much on not being called American we call him their country “You Italy come here” also Nueba Yol (New York ) is everything outside the country that you need to take a plane to get to, don’t think we Dominicans are ignorant is mostly tongue in cheek.
@Pennies, Royale
“@pennies
“In my mind, the next man hypothetical Jackie dates post-Clooney might be (in her estimation) the real 10, not Clooney. Why? Because his personality and morals are more aligned to what she is looking for. In Ted’s mind, Miss Clooney dater cannot see the value in ‘best fit’ and is always mentally reminiscing.”
Excellent post.”
———————
Add one more to the co-signed.
I’ll just use my parents as an example: My mom, before she met my dad, dated men who were *far* more handsome, athletic, and in all likelihood wealthier. (At least according to my mom’s friends, who remembered these guys.) But my dad was the one she married and stuck by, 110%.
I will go further: Even after a disfiguring medical condition that was expected to kill him, she only became MORE devoted. Because she loved him as a person, not some “ideal of perfection” or George Clooney type.
That’s what real love is. Not all this smoke and shadows, idealization and figments of the imagination. Or comparisons to what might be or what never was.
The guy who I rejected over speaker phone due to promiscuity may be more handsome or suave than the man I marry. But that doesn’t even matter! To me, religious beta with awesome character is *titanium strength alpha* who trumps all others possible.
@Iggles
“To say a man isn’t going to attract a woman unless he’s getting regular sex from other women doesn’t pass the smell test”
I understand that “doesn’t pass the smell test” is aka for “your test.”
But that’s only you. Susan has said to me, among many many others stating in this thread (see spinning plates), that a man haveing other options is a huge attractor.
So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are. One can not rely on stumbling upon someone like you who would see things differently.
Practically, male sexual escalation helps prod women to emotional escalation.
Or, conversely, can completely disgust us.
I’m sure women can escalate emotionally without sex, but I’d wonder what the probabilities would be.
We can–if we know there is sexual interest. My DH and I intentionally avoided sex (and yes, it was mutual) for quite a while because we wanted to know if there was more than sexual attraction between us.
(Aside, it helps explain how women get burned in a casual SMP.)
It does, partially.
Cooper – “So, even if a guy isn’t getting sex regularly, the consensus is, for guys, at least project that you are. One can not rely on stumbling upon someone like you who would see things differently.”
THIS. Which is exactly why I say that “game” is very much a dog and pony show for many men. Even if you aren’t a promiscuous man, you should act like one or be taken for a chump by most women.
Of course, the flip side is the few women that don’t see you as a chump are probably great bets for a LTR, IF you can find them at all…
What the hell does previous sexual assault have to do with this? So, it’s OK for a woman to see all men as potential rapists because she was raped by a single man once?
Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.
J – “Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.”
Actually I was bitten by a dog when I was 3 and spent my childhood afraid of them. When I got into my later teens, I set myself to beating that fear so that I wouldn’t have to worry about it going forward, and started volunteering at the local Humane Society. I simply didn’t want that fear to inhibit me, and now I have zero fear of any dog. Respect? Surely, but not fear.
I can control how I react to everything and anything in my life. So, being afraid is fine, but allowing it to affect your life is a choice. At the moment I’m trying to figure out how to beat my fear of previous casual sex partners without going out and having a bunch of casual sex myself. I mean, the dog thing was easy to beat by simply immersing myself in dogs. But I have moral issues with casual sex, and besides I don’t think my SO would be too understanding of my need to “get some strange” to beat my fears.
Oh and I managed to control a massive fear of spiders in a similar manner. Although I don’t know if I’d test it again by holding a tarantula anytime soon..
To be clear, I’m not trying to trivialize sexual assault. I know of several women that suffered them, and I know that it can cause incapacitating fear. But in those cases, I think a visit to a counselor is a good idea, since the fear is going to affect quality of life. And for me that is the major factor: is the fear causing quality of life issues. If not, no worries. If so, seek help.
And in the interests of full disclosure, I also still have a fear of heights. Although I’m not sure it is “fear” so much as VERY healthy respect. I’ve considered bungee jumping or sky diving to beat it, but at this point I think it might just be a good survival instinct. I just have to avoid any jobs that would put me precariously perched above ground.
“see all men as potential rapists because she was raped by a single man once?”
All casual sex is rape
Some feminist said that years ago. Yes, these feminists do sometimes have lucid moments…
The two of you are both genuinely sweet people, Jackie.
Ted,
I hate the thought of you or Jesus M. or any other guy who seems decent and committed worrying that their woman is reflecting back on their sexual past while with their current partner.
I am just a wee bit younger than you and have had many women friends over the years. I have never, ever heard any of them say that they were missing a former lover because of his amazing ability to produce tingles and alpha orgasms. In general, most women I’ve met are focused on the present. They tend to talk a lot about what they value in their current relationship, how to make it even better, etc.
I hate the thought of you worrying about something that is likely not happening.
I also hate the idea that a younger man reading this blog would latch on to this constellation of worries.
I can also add that I’ve known quite a few career women (journalists, academics, not-for-profit workers) who have delayed marriage and child rearing until their late 30s. In general, they prefer LTRs, but often find themselves casually dating in between LTRs. As you might imagine, their N climbs a bit high (10-15) after a while even if they are not sleeping around all that much. It’s just a function of them being in the dating market for a very long time. I can think of at least 10 women offhand who fit this description and I can assure you that they are deeply, deeply satisfied that they waited because they were able to find the right man. I have not heard any of them express dissatisfaction with their current partner in terms of sexual ability and in no way have their past relationships impacted their ability to bond with their long-term mate. An emotionally healthy woman will be able to love the person she is with in the present.
@ Ramble:
Ha! I can appreciate the irony here
For the single NT guys here, you should read this post by an NT woman.
http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/hating-dating/
She’s married to an INTJ, I believe.
@Jackie
sssh! if it’s a matter of money?
if knowledge of my twi-fetish got out – shudders.
I didn’t lurve HG, but I enjoyed it. I read the trilogy back to back. The triangle in it was resolved to my (male) satisfaction – now that could have completely changed my view of the books, but fair is fair, it was worked out plausibly.
have fun, I’m off for the evening
@Ted,
Or your SO is one of those that secretly wished for GC but knew there was a small chance it’d happen. Then The Cloon appears and she cannot run faster to him, leaving you in the dust. Back to square one. All those convoluted to say that you cannot be living in fear like that. I’m not trying to shame anyone, it just makes me sad if some men are blocking on this.
Why take as an example women who are barely adults as a reference? Men of the same age are not any better, so no use blaming those kids.
One thing people have to consider, men always go for the best looking woman they can find and then downgrade from there if the inside doesn’t match with their requirements, heck you guys even create those absurd ranking systems like I saw in the manosphere (always HB was a type of pencil, silly me). Since I don’t consider myself Victoria Secret hot, should I consider that any man that date me thinks I’m his second choice? Or if he managed to date a model in the past ( but soon discovered her idea of a good time was doing cocaine and she was a follower of the Throwing Up Diet) and left, I should automatically dismiss him because God forbid he compares me to his exes?
Not livable.
I can control how I react to everything and anything in my life. So, being afraid is fine, but allowing it to affect your life is a choice.
Aw, geez, I’ve this conversagtion with my DH a hundred times; oh, you INTJs! You never understand that it’s harder for other sorts of people to get control of themselves that way.
I had a teacher that I was very close to in high school. She was new and perhaps 5 years older than I was. She had been raped while walking home from a bus stop and was terrified of strange men for years afterward. She knew it was irrational, but it took years for that fear to mellow into a healthy respect for dangerous circumstances.
Although I don’t know if I’d test it again by holding a tarantula anytime soon..
HHmmmmmmm.
Pennies – “An emotionally healthy woman will be able to love the person she is with in the present.”
No argument from me here. But, I think the real challenge for men these days is figuring out who the “emotionally healthy” women are. Because frankly, it seems like more and more young women (and men for that matter) simply ARE NOT emotionally healthy.
And I’m sure most women are probably exactly as you describe. But, I can tell you my ex-wife tried to strike up a relationship with a HS flame after she left because he was “the one that got away”, and I know two other men that suffered a similar fate, one WHILE they were still married!
In terms of women putting off marriage and family, I get that, but I suggest that across the board it probably isn’t the best tactic for women to take. I think a much better idea would be to find a good guy in her 20′s, hitch her wagon to him and then work together to improve your lives as a team. Waiting for a career and into the 30′s means that although a woman is likely to find an “established” man, she will not have that foundation of being with him when he wasn’t, which works in her favor as any man with a clue will realize that she “bought in” when she was at her peak and he was not and reciprocate with loyalty and dedication. It may be easier to find a guy once he has done all the hard work for himself, but if he is at all aware, he will also be a MUCH harder ‘catch’ because he will be at the peak of his SMP/MMP value.
THIS is what I want my children to understand:
For my girls, their best bet is to always keep a focus on the long term for relationships if they want a husband and family. DO NOT “put it off” until your late 20′s or early 30′s, and instead look for the right guy WHILE working on a degree/career. For my boys, they will not truly reach their peak value until they are in their late 20′s and early 30′s. They should always keep looking for a good woman IF they want a family, but they will have a better selection if they wait until they are older and established. If they don’t find a woman by then, they should REALLY demand as much as they can before they settle, since whoever they marry will be reaping the benefits of their hard work WITHOUT putting in the effort to help him get there. So, she will need to offer something else to make it an equitable arrangement. I have no idea what that “else” is, but it is for them to decide.
J, thank you… you are too kind! However, I am not as nearly charming as Jackie. I have a bit of a cold, detached and analytical streak. People have mistaken me for a guy online before.
J – “Aw, geez, I’ve this conversagtion with my DH a hundred times; oh, you INTJs! ”
Is this really another MBTI type thing? I really need to read that more closely, because I’m finding more and more that the reason I just don’t understand most people is because I just don’t think like them. But, I can understand why it is said that INTJs tend to be arrogant and condescending. I don’t try to trivialize other people’s struggles, but I do it all the time if I’m not thinking about it…
@ Jackie:
Aww, this is so sweet
Your parents’ story is a beautiful one!
I agree about your definition of true love 100%.
J, thank you… you are too kind!
Oddly, no one ever says that to me IRL. LOL.
However, I am not as nearly charming as Jackie.
Sure you are.
I have a bit of a cold, detached and analytical streak. People have mistaken me for a guy online before.
Me too.
”All casual sex is rape”
The exact phrase is ” All heterosexual sex is rape.”
A couple of decades believing in that, most of the feminist leaders get married, LOL. Of course they only marry Alpha males, maybe not in looks but in the social hierarchy these dudes are godzillas.
Me thinks most feminists were and are ugly women who couldn’t have sex with the Alpha males, which made them want to spoil any possible sex for the average man who wanted to sleep with the average woman(”hehe, JFK does not want me, I’ll make sure most of the women will not want Average Joe, that should teach those shallow Alpha males!!” WTF).
Gah, Ted!
Post 491 is beyond cynical.
I personally know many young women and young men in their 20s who are very thoughtful and introspective. They are definitely concerned about making a good match.
And the carousel comment… I throw up my hands! Unless you live in some sort of weird vortex of sociopathy and Jersey Shore gold digging, this is not what most women’s internal thought processes are like…
@ Ian:
Hmm.. this is interesting! Never thought about it that way before..
It definitely was a factor in when I decided to have the DTR talk with my boyfriend. I don’t do casual sex (I know myself and I know hooking up with a guy NSA or for FWB would emotionally scar me; plus I think it’s way risky amongst other reasons). I wanted him to spend the night so I knew I had to talk with him about our relationship status first. I was super nervous because it’s a potentially make or break conversation, but I couldn’t budge on clarifying things between us.
Is this really another MBTI type thing?
I think so. It’s the combination of NT pragmatism and the judgmentalness. INTJs tends to be the sort who pull themselves up their bootstraps, see the locus of control as completely internal, and have little understanding of those who can’t do the same. INTPs, in contrast, seek to understand everything and everyone. They are often wellsprings of compassion . In fact, I used to be until DH started to point out to me how seeing the locus of control as completely external creates a victim mentality.
I just don’t understand most people is because I just don’t think like them.
Yeah, that’s a common INTx problem.
I don’t try to trivialize other people’s struggles, but I do it all the time if I’m not thinking about it…
I find that as an INTx, I really have to put in effort to think about other people’s feelings a lot. Otherwise, I forget about it. having spontaneous reciprocal feelings doesn’t come naturally.
@Iggles
““Dating” to me means getting to know a potential romantic partners by going out on actual dates and conversation via phone/email/text. Kissing is not a preresiquite (i.e., the idea that every date must end in a kiss). It’s about determining if the two of you are compatible for a relationship and seeing if there’s physical chemistry between you both. You don’t have to have sex to know if you want to be exclusive with someone!”
This is one of the critical things I missed in my earlier post. It isn’t just dating multiple people, but it is the challenge of unwinding how people define “dating” coupled with the whole first date or third date sex issue within a culture that finds things like the “bachelor/bachelorette” tv shows as even remotely normal/acceptable.
Having a cup of coffee or drink or dinner with a couple of different people in the same week may still feel a little strange to me, but it is certainly a far stretch from banging – or even making out with one and going out two nights later with the other. I’ve heard enough reporting about first-date physical that my assumption is that with this multiple strategy at some point most people are going to be (at least) making out with two people within a short period of time. To me this is something that should have died off after freshman year in college. But then I have also had “the talk” about commitment and sex and upon asking how she viewed ‘sleeping around’ and ‘casual sex’ was met with “well, how do you define ‘sleeping around’?” So these days, it is all a guessing game.
On the flipside, I did date a women with whom we very quickly established how we defined these things. I believe I said something along the lines of “I only kiss one girl at a time”. Which seems kind of lame, but I suppose looking back it established that she was the one I was interested in dating+kissing and that I could be “dating” other women (which I wasn’t) but chose to escalate with her alone. So in some ways, I guess I didn’t give up the fact that I could have other options, but also was very clear with her that she was the focus.
The challenge was that she WAS dating other men – and while not kissing/sexing them up, still enjoyed the attention. In other words, she could not – would not drop the plates, but rather shelved them. In her mind she eventually did – as we quickly became “exclusive”, however the texting and facebooking with these dates-turned-friends and the other categories of orbiting men proved to be too disruptive for me to continue, but I guess that is a whole other story.
Regardless of how that situation turned out, I found it to be very attractive and complementary that she made it clear that she was/would only be kissing me – and vice/versa. In reality those periods of overlap can be short, but they can also be important in establishing interest and anchoring attraction early on. And I think it can be done without sacrificing/subordinating other options too early, whether real or in my case, perceived. When those definitions get muddled, I think it can be hard to recover.
@ Cooper:
I agree that a man having options is attractive. But where I disagree is that he needs to do this by having casual sex on the regular (when you are not in committed relationship all the sex you are having is casual).
The biggest indicator of a man having options is his competence and confidence in his dealings with women. I’m talking about one on one, when you are on a date – can he look you in the eye? Talk about himself and ask you questions with ease? Or is he nervous or supplicating? For women, a man who is successful (i.e., reaches his career goals, is financially stable, etc) and has good chemistry with them (both mentally and physical) is understood to be a good catch.
If you feel that someone is a good catch then you instinctively know they have options. Works the same way in reverse. If a man considers a woman a good catch then he knows she has other options.
This is gender neutral, in the regard that no one of either gender wants to date someone who they think can’t possible snag the interest of anybody else UNLESS there’s a power dynamic they feed off of (i.e, manipulators and abuser love to date people they can control).
@Susan
Will you also endorse, “And let’s face it, if I’m just going to get used for free dinners I might as well get a P&D out of it”?
“The exact phrase is ” All heterosexual sex is rape.”
Yes, but since rape is supposedly not sex then all casual sex is rape because true sex implies knowing and having feelings for someone.
All casual sex is rape.
That phrase is about to send a shock wave through the sex positive cult
Think about it. How many women wake up from a non-casual sex encounter crying rape?
@ Iggles
Totally agree! The guy I’m eyeing at the moment had all this going on for him. Pretty hot to me. I don’t need to see other women chasing him to know he’s quality, I have eyes on my own. At any rate, knowing that other women are around might discourage me since I might get in the “Ted cycle of fear” thinking “it’s just a matter of time before he falls for one of these women”.
@Ramble & Other Interested in N. Korea:
Completely, totally and absolutely off-topic (but fascinating):
http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3
Later, gators
Tasmin, I think the desire for emotional as well as physical exclusivity might be a very INF* thing. Ted D has said he doesn’t care who else his girlfriend talks to, as long as she only does physical stuff with him. It also sounds like he’s not upset by platonic male friendships.
My husband and I are definitely a bit more jealous and possessive. We both dropped other people of the opposite sex we had conversations with, after having a brief talk about it. He even deleted his Facebook profile after we moved in together, albeit mostly for other reasons. I log into Facebook maybe once a month, and only to keep up on female friends’ activities.
I think girls should not collect “orbiters.” Even if she doesn’t think there’s anything between them, having them around is still giving her validation and attention. The guys are still dropping little flirty vibes like “you look good” or trying to comfort her when she’s having a bad day. I think it disrupts a really solid bond for the primary relationship and often leads to instability. Because I’ve seen the kind of damage it can do, I reserve that level of interaction for my husband only.
Tasmin @ 518:
Wow. Your whole post makes me realize how confusing the whole plates thing can be! I know how I approached it, but it doesn’t really work if one person isn’t willing to drop the other plates once they found someone they want to escalate with!
I’ve done the former (dates), but not the latter! I know it’s somewhat common these days but having such a cavalier attitude towards making out is alien to me. I can count the number of guys I’ve kissed on one hand and every time was in the context of having relationship potential (i.e., it not making out with a stranger in a club).
That reads like a red flag! Seems like she was trying to calibrate her answer.
Agreed!
It’s so tricky these days, you have to figure out how to manage as you go.
I think a lot of this angst over the SMP would probably change if the divorce rate dropped to 10-15% and the family law system was completely overhauled. As it stands, a man who gets married is playing Russian roulette with his financial and emotional health, with the additional problem that there are three chambers loaded in this particular revolver. Perhaps there should be more activism by SMP-disgusted women targeting this side of the equation.
Those looking to turn back the clock on the SMP can probably start writing off a lot of college campuses. As I stated in a previous post, I average about 8 men and 18 women in my classes and I will extrapolate from this to describe a more general college dynamic of increasing male scarcity. Even if all 8 men were beta-commitment-freak LTR enthusiasts and the female students were homogeneous in their own preferences for LTRs (they are not), that would still leave 10 women without a…chair to sit on when the music stops. Numerous social experiments have revealed that it takes far less numerical inequality to cause a bidding war to begin and for the price of sex to plummet. It’s also a core Guttentag-Secord assumption.
Absent major changes to the legal system, a lot of women may end up with a stark choice between being FWBs (although perhaps with an exclusivity package included) with a higher-SMV male who wants to avoid the revolver; being in a relationship with a judgmental and somewhat paranoid lower-SMV “commitment slut” man who watches her like a hawk and screams “Oh, Jesus, you WHORE” if she downloads Fifty Shades; and essentially living in a nunnery and relying on her battery-operated boyfriend.
There will be exceptions, of course: an 11-SMV Lara Croft is probably going to eventually get who she wants. However, I think the general trends are clear. Some of you single guys here at HUS should be particularly well-placed, since you seem to represent the small percentage of men who *could* obtain casual sex but who simply don’t enjoy it. You all should have no problems finding and keeping GFs.
Pennies – “Unless you live in some sort of weird vortex of sociopathy and Jersey Shore gold digging, this is not what most women’s internal thought processes are like…”
Not exactly. But I am being encroached on by lots of section 8 housing and our area is starting to look a bit like an urban war zone in a few places. I’m not at all thrilled by what’s going on around me, but I base my views on what I see in my vicinity. And honestly, the young people around me really just aren’t “getting it together” in a timely manner. I didn’t go straight to college after HS, but I got out and started working. (a shit job that got me to hit college in fact) But instead I see a general lack of responsibility from people who are legally adults, and very little effort to plan for the future.
But that being said, Pittsburgh is still primarily a “blue collar” town, and much of what is discussed here is focused at a much higher SES than I grew up in. The people I grew up with never did any of this introspection. Mostly they either went straight to college because they were “supposed to”, or they ended up pregnant (or getting someone pregnant) and simply making the best of it. In short, around these parts, life isn’t planned for, it just happens. It drives me crazy, but as far as I can tell that is the norm.
Hope – “Tasmin, I think the desire for emotional as well as physical exclusivity might be a very INF* thing. Ted D has said he doesn’t care who else his girlfriend talks to, as long as she only does physical stuff with him. It also sounds like he’s not upset by platonic male friendships.”
I’m on the fence here. My SO does indeed have a few male friends, but it would be a lie to say it didn’t bother me at first. It was only after getting to know them a bit myself that I felt more at ease. I can see that the relationships are very “sibling” like, and since my SO only had brothers, I don’t see it as unusual that she would have a few male friends of similar character as them. (it also helps that those male friends are married and at least seem to be happy about it.)
However for the most part, I’m not a fan of opposite sex friendships. The only female “friends” I have are attached to a male friend, none of which are single.
The 40% statistic of women having a ONS while on vacation is from the female users of misstravelcom that “sports the slogan ‘Beautiful People Travel Free’ [and] aims at pairing rich men who don’t like to travel alone, with attractive women aged 18-30 who want a free vacation.”
Sort of a travel sugar-daddy-baby site.
So, this is not a representative population from which to infer properties about 18-30 yo women, while travelling, in general.
However, I think there is some truth to the legs opening a bit more easily for some women while on vacation.
@Hope
I don’t see it as possessive as much as I see it as respectful or indicative of the ability to fully invest. Too much of that type of communication and managed proximity just feels like hedging or orbiting to me. In that particular case there were other issues going on relating to the timing of texts, calls, and some ‘checking in’ things that just didn’t sit well with me.
Eventually I discovered her in a lie: she had said one of these ‘friends’ that would blow up her phone at strange times was gay – so you know, “nothing could even happen, even if I wanted to, which I don’t”. And I believed her – I didn’t doubt that I was her choice, but I still felt that something was strange about it. What she didn’t know was that due to a common friend, I would eventually find out that a) he was not gay, and b) they dated for a short time but it ended when she moved out west. But that didn’t get revealed until it was already over. While I know that I was her choice, her primary focus, I felt that it was still disrespectful and ‘hedgy’ to continue a friendship with an ex when there was really no reason to be maintaining a bi-coastal friendship with a man that she’d had a fling with, unless….
In any case, the lie would have eventually imploded things. She probably lied because she knew that I had zero contact with anyone I have ever been in a relationship with and felt that I would have disapproved. Approval or not, I certainly would question the purpose of such a relationship, so yes, maybe it is somewhere embedded in my INFP, but I those kinds of free-floating relationships with other men get my antennae all up and wiggly. It isn’t so much about cheating, per se, but more about being ready to invest fully, to shed the training wheels, those external sources of attention, sexual (potential), emotional, or otherwise.
These days I just assume that their facebook pages have exes and lurkers that she likes to “keep in touch with” and that the guy down at the yoga studio with the cute little man-ponytail that chats her up is not gay, even if he wears those tight miniature underwearish yoga pants, and just focus on bigger issues, of which there are obviously plenty these days. But if a woman does not feel the need to “keep in touch” or make love to her phone on the bar, then she has a huge tailwind with me. For whatever that is worth.
@ Mireille:
We’re definitely on the same page
The idea of pre-selection is lost on me. I don’t want to feel like I’m one of many girls vying for a guy’s affections. Seeing a guy I like with other women who are actively trying to get with him wouldn’t make me want to battle for him.
Instead of increasing attraction, to me it comes off as building up dread. As a result, both my interest in him and confidence that a relationship between is us feasible would wane.
@Travis
I did see that – in fact that article led me to ask Just1X why British women are such loose gooses.
@Hollenhund
Agreed, and I don’t count either as deceit.
No, it’s saying that if betas are going to be assholes, they have no advantage over Alphas after all.
Is it fair to distrust all dogs if you’ve been bitten? No, but that’s how fear works.
I’m deadly afraid of dogs and I still make sure to be nice to them as much as I can and I apologize to the owners for my irrational fear. No to mention I’m working on it one dog at the time.
I think so. It’s the combination of NT pragmatism and the judgmentalness. INTJs tends to be the sort who pull themselves up their bootstraps, see the locus of control as completely internal, and have little understanding of those who can’t do the same.
In my case is a bit of experience seeing the whole “the way to hell is paved with good intentions” compassion is waaay overrated and the idea that making people feel uncomfortable for their personal choices as evil as well.
I was witness of how the lowering of shame created a society that enabled behaviors and once you raise people with aversion to hardships everything else falls apart. We went from a somehow stable rates of WWO births among low class with low levels among the upper class and “separation” to having women becoming babymamas in what we call Centipede family. Because even without welfare they had family members supportive of their choice so suddenly making a mistake with different men wasn’t that bad.
The same thing happened with cheating men that didn’t lost their attractiveness to better women out of having “a kid out of wedlock” also were more daring and pushed for sex while everyone else enable them.
The same for the only female friend that I know that has cheated she moved to slut town were most of married women cheated on and it took a decade for her to start seeing it as “well it cannot be that bad, divorce is worst and my husband is not satisfying me” or my friend that is with kid number 4 from 3 different women and wants 11 and he will get them women are not punishing him because he goes and fish for low class women that having a man that will pay them money regularly for their kid and the chance of having an upgrade like an apartment (he bought one for her oldest child) is the equivalent of marrying Edward…
So yeah in my case is “enabling, being understanding of our weaknesses = bad. Shaming, telling people that just because something is hard doesn’t mean doesn’t need to get done = good” Being there done that.
I wish we could find a middle ground though like giving a lot of good incentive to good behaviors, but it seems that no one wants that so what else can we do.
Funny enough I’m more like your DH with my husband that sometimes doesn’t get why I’m so quick to judge. He is a bit judgmental but he usually ask more info before labeling someone “idiot”, of course since I always back up my examples with proof he can’t really claim I’m wrong, YMMV.
@Jimmy
I’ve been researching this topic most of today, and put up a new post, but I’ll answer this question here. *If* the guy has indicated curiosity in any way at any point in time, or the girl suspects he cares or she finds herself avoiding the subject hoping not to reveal that information, then yes, it is a lie by omission.
This is what happened to Jesus Mahoney. He never asked his fiance her number during four years of dating. But when they met up with old college friends of hers before the wedding, she was anxious to change the subject away from her college exploits. He realized then she’d been hiding her number because she knew his was low and she suspected he’d balk. Of course, he did, and he ended the engagement.
Tasmin, I think that kind of lying is just foolish. I was also talking to an ex-turned-friend (sort of) when I was starting to talk to my husband, but that was above board and in the open. When I was asked to stop talking to the ex, I did. Why jeopardize something awesome?
On the other hand, some guys could feel differently about this subject, like if a girl is unable to remain friendly with any ex’s, it might mean she’s crazy or not properly socialized. I have actually known social situations where a girl and her new boyfriend remained friendly with an ex. I personally wouldn’t be able to withstand the awkwardness of that scenario!
I don’t doubt it, and the standards apply equally to both sexes.
That Mireille is really a pistol.
@Iggles,
Indeed, what sane person wants to be in some episode of “The Bachelor?”. There is a reason the relationships coming out of that fail. People aren’t focusing on winning over the object of their affection, rather eliminating the competition. Later, they realize that the “prize” is really not what they thought the guy was. Now, everybody is frustrated because there was emotional/sexual escalation but no real connection.
Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?
@Mike C
The body of work is against you on that one. See my new post.
That’s a utilitarian argument – morality is flexible and fluid. I reject it. Others may have a different opinion, of course.
Not at all. I have no problem whatsoever with men stating outright that they’d like to have sex and full disclosure, they have other sexual partners as well. Clearly, you believe a woman’s failing to ask this question implies her actual desire to win the intrasexual competition, so it seems to me that informing everyone that the contest is “on” will result in even fiercer competition and raise your value considerably. It’s preselection to the max, isn’t it?
If you’re having sex with one woman, and dating a new woman, and you make zero attempt to conceal anything about your whereabouts, company or activities when not with her, then you’re in the clear. If you’re worried about her finding out anything – anything at all – you’re lying by omission.
I think it’s far more common with this strategy to be unable to find anyone to commit to, and go to blogs proclaiming that all women are sluts.
@Jason
Well, that’s a self-selected group of women. Only a small handful of women have prolonged flings with alphas, and they’re clearly stating a preference for alpha with no commitment than anyone else with commitment. As I’ve said all along, I don’t think those tastes change over time. Alpha chasers stay alpha chasers. I suspect it’s true with relationships as well, though the relationships I’ve observed with alphas are generally of short duration and/or glorified booty calls, built-in dates for functions, etc. rather than an emotionally intimate and in love relationship.
On the other hand, some guys could feel differently about this subject, like if a girl is unable to remain friendly with any ex’s, it might mean she’s crazy or not properly socialized. I have actually known social situations where a girl and her new boyfriend remained friendly with an ex. I personally wouldn’t be able to withstand the awkwardness of that scenario!
My husband last ex was at our second wedding that was not bad at all, but I did had to block her from facebook she is kind of “unpolite” and although nice to me she had this penchant for doing strange comments to the people on my list that didn’t made me look good. She still talks to him over e-mail but aside from an occasional weird comment I don’t worry.
Interesting. As a woman, I see a huge difference. For starters, STD transmission is much higher with concurrent than sequential partners, regardless of N, due to the duration of the relationships, in general (from WebMD).
To me, the male’s desire to have concurrent partners seems to preclude any meaning to the sex whatsoever other than busting a nut. I would not want to be part of that parade. At least in the case of sequential partners, one can entertain the possibility that human beings are not being used as warm holes.
I get it about sexual variety, but Jeez Louise, I’m picturing a gluttonous bender of sexual excess that is repellent. For the record, I find it repellent from women as well.
Agree 100%, assuming the woman is fully aware the man is spinning plates.
Bingo. There’s a second reason too – guys are notorious for trotting out the “Whoa! Stage 5 Clinger!” Of course, any guy who would say that is not relationship material, but I think women worry that they will telegraph a pathetic neediness by asking anything at all too early. Sad but true.
@Sassy
Women are territorial too. After all, our female ancestors evolved new attraction triggers to facilitate pair-bonding and monogamy. Women are absolutely not wired to share men. We are monogamous. (Serial perhaps, but monogamous nonetheless.) Sharing a man —–> your babies don’t survive. It’s a visceral repugnance and fear.
@Tasmin
Exactly, it’s agentic behavior normally associated with a wholly narcissistic approach to life.
+1
You know, I’m often accused of promoting relationships because they’re good for women, but I honestly believe they are good for men, and for society. The deterioration of relationships in our society has had massive negative effects on all of our institutions, including the economy!
A sexual free for all is terrible for everyone.
Also Sharing a man —–>you could get a deadly STD that kills you or renders you infertile. I keep thinking that women that care more about a man’s feelings than a man actions on cheating most have something preventing this (more resistance to STD’s or less ability to secure another man thus they have to cope with it? dunno) since is the first gut feeling I get if I even dream of getting cheated on “That dick dirty of another vaginal juices doesn’t get anywhere mine”, YMMV
That’s a utilitarian argument – morality is flexible and fluid. I reject it. Others may have a different opinion, of course.
You sure about that?
Take this hypothetical. You are in Nazi Germany, and you are hiding Jews in a secret area. The Nazi SS comes to your door, and asks if you if you are hiding any Jews or seen any Jews. Do you lie?
To be clear, I am not equating the scenarios, but the general idea of ethics/morals/principles being driven by some type of utilitarian perspective is well-founded
What if you were thrust into a Hunger Game situation? Would you kill to survive?
@Susan #531
“I did see that – in fact that article led me to ask Just1X why British women are such loose gooses.”
I did answer at the time (I’m assuming that you missed it). I’m sure that you can hunt it quicker than me ‘flat’ & ‘Just1X’ ought to narrow it right down (flat = apartment)
@Jason
I don’t know – I’ve seen a lot of alphas operating in the Greek college scene and they’re generally either interested in staying single, in which case it’s all no-strings hookups, or they’re open to a gf, in which case they respect the sequential protocol. The high value girl who is his natural counterpart is not going to entertain being part of a harem, which girls are vigorously shamed for by other girls. She is going to want the guy to get in line and date her, and in my experience, even the alpha does that, at least for a time.
We already know that only a minority of athletes and frat guys are even hitting 10 partners in college (though higher than the rest of the students). The idea that more than a handful of young guys have multiple partners going is not realistic.
@Susan
“Interesting. As a woman, I see a huge difference. For starters, STD transmission is much higher with concurrent than sequential partners, regardless of N, due to the duration of the relationships, in general (from WebMD). ”
I was assuming that there will be a delay between infection -> symptoms -> doctor. I specified that the 3 hook ups were in quick succession. I did not mean that n=3 (over some reasonable time period) is the same as 3 concurrent FWBs
@ Anacaona:
Lol! Excellent sound bite
I hear you on not being cool with sharing a man! If I love a man then I want all of his attention. There’s no way I could ever be okay with him kissing/hooking up/dating another woman. I’m possessive like that in regards to his romantic & sexual attention, and his body. I would feel majorly disrespected and betrayed.
@ Batistat
“You all should have no problems finding and keeping GFs.”
But this is actually quite a terrifying prospect to be in. The screening methods for filtering out bad girls is not fully developed in males who are just realizing their increased SMV in their mid-20s, but all of a sudden they are getting lots of female attention, and most of it will be extremely damaging.
I am not saying that I want to be Omega and this is a First World Problem, I understand, but it is still terrifying.
Here comes in my protest:
“Not all dating is about trying to find a spouse. There is a difference between what you might want in a date on a Saturday night when you’re 19 and what you might be looking for in someone to spend the rest of your life with.”
How the fuck am I supposed to know this girl has REALLY matured? And since she decided I wasn’t good enough for a date on Saturday night when she was 19, why in God’s Name should I trust her with THE REST OF MY LIFE?!
Hence where the protest comes in with a girl who dated George Clooney: GC is very clearly opposed to marriage and family. Why the hell is any girl dating him?
I guess the answer is “OMG HE’S GEORGE CLOONEY HOW COULD YOU NOT?!”
And, yeah, I honestly do understand that.
And it makes me distrustful of that girl. She has to go a long, long, LONG way to demonstrating she has changed and actually values me. It’s a red-flag.
As is dating an Alpha.
You notice that Sassy here is stating a strong preference for Alphas, with many conditions attached. If she hypothetically came up to me 5 years later and stated she’s over that whole Alpha thing and now wants to date a Beta, how am I supposed to react? Mirellie here is suggesting “life goals” or some such, but my male mind and most of the other male minds here would instantly enter a defensive stance.
And for good reason.
to Supplicate: implore, beseech, beg, entreat, pray, plead
I know Anacaona didn’t mean this, but let’s be clear about what supplication is. Asking women to find this sexually attractive is like asking men to sprout a boner for a hairy upper lip.
Full disclosure is win win!
Lol! Excellent sound bite
Glad you like it! My other one a bit more crash was “If I wanted to taste pussy I’ll become a lesbian”
I must say that I lost a lot of “good” men with my hard line on cheating but I think it worked out for the best in the end.
@INTJ
Do you really see no daylight between chump and player? Can’t you just go 80% of the way to player and then quit when you get a gf? That’s what most guys who learn Game do, or so I’ve been told.
Susan, I agree about the supplicating thing. I dated guys who were that way, and I gave them multiple chances. It just didn’t work. Add to the fact that they were also receptive to the advances of other girls (the whole “I feel so lucky to have any girl’s attention!” deal), and it was all around crappy.
Asking women to find this sexually attractive is like asking men to sprout a boner for a hairy upper lip.
I don’t ask to be found attractive but to give the guy a chance to outgrow it any reader of this site knows that this is not some sort of dark machination from guys but a product of feminist upbringing. I don’t think this is supposed to last a whole relationship but usually the early stages. Didn’t you had a reader that had this problem talked to the guy to tone it down and it looked like he got the message and they continued dating? How that worked out?
PS
I personally know women with hairy upper lips that are happily married with children and some men have a fetish for this, YMMV.
That’s exactly what it is. In fact, I haven’t thought of this, but it’s probably effective at getting the girl you really like to put out early, whether she’s ready or not.
Re options, or preselection, the idea is that all women find the same men attractive, so the guy who has a bunch of women competing for him may be assumed to be one of those lucky 20%. Personally, I have observed that a guy’s even having an ex, or one other woman vying for his attention is plenty for most women.
The most hypergamous women demand the most preselection, so you’ll find them at frat parties and clamoring for alpha attention.
That’s three come-ons for Michael today by lunchtime! I’m on the edge of my seat – what did the afternoon bring?????
Add to the fact that they were also receptive to the advances of other girls (the whole “I feel so lucky to have any girl’s attention!” deal), and it was all around crappy.
Then your issue here is not the supplication but the receptiveness to others. He wasn’t happy because of you but because you were a girl, that does makes more sense. I just don’t think is the way most supplicating guys operate, YMMV.
Ramble,
Would you be willing to wait until marriage for the perfect woman? I think I know her.
@ Anacaona:
Lol! You’re on a roll
I feel the same way about cheating. It’s not something I think I could get past. For me it’s part ego wound, part irrevocably broken trust… I’d imagine it would be a hard road getting the relationship back to where it should be for me to feel secure and the hurt to heal.
@ SW:
My curiosity is piqued as well!
@Mike C
I’m glad you mentioned this. I’ve been wondering why it takes so much time for people to become exclusive. If you’re open to a relationship, and you meet someone great and compatible, why not put others on hold while exploring and nurturing that? You’ve got your “abundance mentality” in place – why not pursue something worthwhile with focus? Becoming exclusive means nothing more than, “I like you, and I don’t like anyone else.” You don’t even have to share that if you think it will be a DLV – just keep your dick dry while figuring out if this is the real deal. Why is this concept unreasonable? If you’re so interested in variety, why even consider the LTR?
Re Infantry:
Agreed, you’re a great addition! You and Tasmin conversing are awesome too.
Susan asked
Well if he
1. looks like George Clooney or Justin Beiber
2. is adept at placing himself next to ladies at patios or park benches
3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women
then yes i can believe it.
Coincidentally, i have a friend of a friend.. i can’t comment on his looks, but i’m in better shape than him, but he always gets women interacting with him without trying. For the love of me i cant understand. Yeah he’s got big eyebrows but hell…
Some guys just seem to ooze those pheromones that drive women crazy regardless of what they look like. Maybe Michaels got’m too.
In the meantime, i’ll stick with my old spice/axe combo with a hint of Givenchy Play.
Does that occur when his face smells like a vagina?
From Jason773 @ 434:
Based on my experience as well, women WILL NOT run from that kind of situation. In fact, I’ve seen it excite an even greater eagerness to ‘win’. While I haven’t been asked if I was seeing others very often, I have divulged this info voluntarily in a few circumstances and it’s almost as if I’ve been rewarded for a period. Now, I will say, once the info was divulged the women didn’t stay in the ‘harem’ forever, but they stuck around long enough to see if they had a legit shot.
I found this comment – and my reaction (as a woman who doesn’t engage in casual sex) – quite interesting.
If I were in the ‘hmm not sure yet’ stage still about this guy, divulging that info would elicit a ‘thanks, it’s been fun’.
If, however, I were genuinely interested in pursuing a relationship with this guy, I would ‘show my cards’ and emotionally escalate, and request exclusivity.
I would amend this to say project that you could if you wanted to, but you don’t because this new relationship is awesome! (Assuming it is.)
@Herb
Yes I would.
@bastiat
That is the divorce rate among the college educated. The family law system still sucks for those men, but the risk is mitigated by certain factors.
I love the musical chairs analogy, it’s perfect. I once infuriated a bunch of feminists with it.
”Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?”
Surprised? Why? older men love young women but older women can’t enjoy eye candy themselves, or it is impossible for a non-alpha who is young and living in a big city to be sexually noticed? Who said anything about being approached? Women only approach Alpha males, bro. To me, they either stare at me until they have to get off at their stop, or they provide ”approach me/talk to me” sign and wait for me to do all of the work.
It’s ridiculous. I’d expect this from virginal women(as if there are any LOL) but grown-up women still expecting men to do everything, meh.
What’s impressive is how my Alpha friends don’t approach women and have extremely attractive women throwing themselves onto them, sleep with them, and move on without expecting anything in return.
Now that’s impressive! And a reality worth aiming for.
Susan: “Is anyone else surprised and impressed that Michael is sexually approached by several women every single day?”
Ha ha ha ha…
He’s an exuberant, inexperienced young bloke..Only 20 years old, and it shows in his writing.
Best to take what he says with a leetle grain of salt.
@Susan & Iggles
I don’t Michael success anywhere. He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them and a lonely library rat. Hardly Casanova at work here. No offense.
”Well if he
1. looks like George Clooney or Justin Beiber
2. is adept at placing himself next to ladies at patios or park benches
3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women”
No. I look more like Edward Maya, the Romanian Musician. With stubble and without it. My hair is much darker, though. But we share the same body type but I think he has 2 inches on me.
I do have very feminine features. Maybe they don’t feel threatened by me. Or it has something to do with different immunity systems, I dunno. I’ve talked already about how I went to several stores with an Alpha male and the first store we visited, the clerk, an attractive blonde in her mid 20′s had to cover her nose at all times because she couldn’t stand my body odor(I sweat a lot, it was a summer’s day and I had no deodorant).
In the second store we visited, the second I entered the clerk noticed me. She was tall, I mean, 5’10” at least, with extremely thick and long dark hair, curly(!) had dark eyes, crooked teeth(her only flaw as far as I can tell. She tried to hide her teeth when she was talking to me. It was cute) but damn, her body was smoking. Top model material right there without being anorectic.
That one girl wasn’t repelled by my scent. She payed a lot of attention to me. Didn’t bother with my Alpha friend except when he was cashing his item out and she was the only one in the store working, didn’t even look at the other Alpha dudes who were behind us, and became so nervous that she forgot to take the alarm thingy all store articles have.
We exit the store and the alarm starts ringing. She starts giggly running towards us, staring at the ground and smiling, looks up at me, and tells me she made a mistake and we’d have to return to the store with her. I don’t know why she directed all of her focus on me; I didn’t buy anything, I couldn’t afford it, lol. This was one of those ”a pair of slashed jeans » 300 dollars
So we return to the store with her and she removes the alarm from the item, looks at me, smiles, and stands there. Me and my buddy get out of the store and I never returned to that place. My Alpha friend told me she was ”totally” checking me out but why would a girl whose sexual market is almost a 10 be interested in a poor as ass average-looking student?
She did seem to have some African blood in her. My ancestors are mostly from the Iberian Peninsula. Maybe it’d be a good mix and her biology was telling her that. Was I intimidated by her? You sure as hell can bet I was. I can’t handle that type of woman, yet. Maybe if I had had to use game to have her warm up to me I would’ve been prepared to close the deal(ask for the number and then a date, and then escalate it) but a young, very attractive woman already receptive to my interest?
NOPE.
On the other hand, I was eye-fckd by a very obese young woman today. Can’t hit it right all the time..
It’s kinda strange, though. If I’m clean shaven, I attract the ”stare at you until you decide to look away or you man up and approach me, you little coward!” but, depending on how far advanced my stubble is, I either attract the notice of older women, like in their 30′s but still attractive or younger girls, jailbait. None of which Is a safe bet, lol.
@Mike C
We should move the convo to the new post. There are three types of ethics: morality (no compromise), virtual (lying is OK for altruism or noble goals), and utilitarian (altruism also OK, but so is selfish gain).
Also, are you really equating Nazi Germany to guys’ obligations in a dysfunctional SMP?
OK wait – this is not about honesty. Also, Katniss didn’t actually wind up killing anyone except in self-defense. I like to think I’d take a similar approach. I get your point though – we are all capable of every conceivable kind of violence. Most of us don’t get tested.
”I don’t Michael success anywhere. He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them and a lonely library rat. Hardly Casanova at work here. No offense.”
No offense taken. The 2 women had pretty much a low SMV number. What they think of me matters not. The library rat was hardly alone. She’s a 5, maybe a 6 if she fixes her clothing and make-up. Plenty of guys offering their dicks, no doubt. I’m only 20 and I was raised to be a beta.
But my father was an airforce pilot. My ancestors fought in every war, and I have absolute control over my desires and emotions, which is a good trick to have if you want to go around. Give me time. I’m hanging out mostly with Alpha males and learning their ways. Soon enough I’ll be one of the guys Susan warns her female audience to avoid, LOL.
”He had 2 women afraid of him assaulting them”
By the way, it’d be hardly fear of being assaulted, but more of a tone of narcissism expressed by this garbage-level SMV women. Sometimes I eat my lunch in this garden next to my college and I observe the people who pass by.
There’s a certain distance from the place I sit to eat and the street connecting it to all of the others. Many young women walk through that street to get to our college. I can see them, but they can’t see me unless they looking for me. I’ve noticed that the vast majority of the women can’t look the men in the eye. Some of those dudes are very attractive so I assumed the women wouldn’t stare at the ground and act like they’re cornered rats. Nope, they are still mighty afraid of men.
Maybe it’s part of the feminist propaganda taking effect. Back in HS the feminists would come and talk a lot of BS against men, something like 1 in every 3 women being raped and such, and other BS created to make women hate men.
“Soon enough I’ll be one of the guys Susan warns her female audience to avoid, LOL.”
Ha! I thought you already were, given the oodles of comments and anecdotes proffered here. Not to mention your depth of knowledge and sage advice regarding women. LOL! LOL! LOL!
”Ha! I thought you already were, given the oodles of comments and anecdotes proffered here. Not to mention your depth of knowledge and sage advice regarding women. LOL! LOL! LOL!”
You can thank Roissy for me. lolololololol.
”lol”
”3. walks his baby puppy through crowds of women””
This works remarkably fine. Last year I had to take care of my aunt’s pup. The daughters of the owner of the coffee shop next to my house are obese, but they have a friend who is 6 feet tall(!!) and blonde, rather cute, with a bubble butt. I had noticed her before but again, it was too much sand for my truck. I just limited myself to eye-fck her to oblivion.
One day I took the dog for a walk. My dad called me on the phone to tell me to go to that coffee shop after the walk but I didn’t feel like going up and then down. I went to the coffee shop with the dog. Guess who was there?
There was also an Alpha dude there. He tried to pick her up in front of her parents but it didn’t work. He resumed his drink, and the girl starts talking to me. She hadn’t even noticed my existence before. I didn’t say nothing – other than melting in front of her.
This year I went to my church’s annual ball and the girl was there with her ugly girlfriends. I was standing in the same spot for 30 minutes. I look to my left and there’s the girl’s ass staring at me. I stayed in that position, again, for more 30 minutes and the girl had to have noticed my obsession with her ass. Didn’t move.
Her girlfriends wanted to go dancing, the walk to the stage and when they return, with all of the wide space the girl(obviously the Alpha female of the pack)walks right in front of me. I could smell her neck, and she wasn’t using perfume. She did the same thing some three more times and then parked again next to me.
I didn’t do anything because I’m a little pussy, but man do I wish Roissy was there to coach me through!
Anyway, babies and cute dogs are great chick magnets.
@ Ted and others re: “Choking down the Red Pill”
One of the things not many people will tell you (because many of them don’t know it themselves) is that the Red Pill is an incomplete representation of reality in a lot of ways. It isn’t the end.
People write about it like it’s the Red Pill or a world of illusion and compare it to the movie “The Matrix.” A more accurate comparison would be with the movie “Inception” with one level stacked upon another, a dream within a dream within a dream. Red Pill Land is in the middle somewhere, but it isn’t the end.
One of the many focuses of Red Pill Land is differences. Differences between what people say and what they do, differences between men and women, differences between Alpha and Beta. It can be disenheartening and seem overly adversarial.
But if you can accept it and move past it, you start to enter the next level which focuses on how people are at their core, the same. You start seeing that despite their apparent differences most of us want the same sorts of things, love, acceptance, companionship, that at heart, men and women, alpha and beta, have more similarities than differences. I think we come away feeling less judgmental, more compassionate, and more accepting, not just of others, but of ourselves.
The first level, you learn about people from what they say.
In Red Pill Land you learn about people from what they do.
And on the next level you start to learn about people from who they are.
Anyway, I encourage you Ted, and others who are having trouble with what they’re seeing to keep plugging away. Contrary to what cynics or people still hopelessly mired in Red Pill Land tell you, there’s a lot more out there.
And when you find it, it’s worth getting there.
Good luck.
I just heard from her! They are still together – she sent me the cutest picture. She says he is wonderful, and has been a rock during their relationship.
So you are absolutely right – a woman can and should encourage the alpha characteristics in her man, and in sizing him up should consider that potential for growth. We are all a work in progress. My husband had a strong influence on me, he got me to be more grounded and less flighty (social butterfly).
So you are absolutely right – a woman can and should encourage the alpha characteristics in her man, and in sizing him up should consider that potential for growth. We are all a work in progress. My husband had a strong influence on me, he got me to be more grounded and less flighty (social butterfly).
Of course I’m right I’m always right…:D
Seriously I’m glad they got past that issue. I always considered the first stages of dating akin to when you are in that awkward stage between childhood and puberty and we all look awful in it, specially inexperienced guys.
Giving a man that is not doing anything downright awful (cheating, abusing, paying attention to any broom with a warm hole that looks at him) sometime before “labeling him undatable” is important this is the glimpse of things to come and also probably some men are supplicating because this is what they think women want. If you tell him “No I don’t like this, stop it” or “I really like you and I’m glad you like me so much but hear it constantly takes away the specialness of it” or simply waiting a bit to let him realize that you are not going anywhere and have his normal life take care of the supplication (and really I’m sure once things settle down he will more likely want to have time back for friends work, and hobbies men are more prone to ignore you than to be around you 24/7 with few exceptions) I think is a good advice to give.
Of course this depends on other things Sassy probably will not find this strategy sound given her past experiences and it wouldn’t work with her, either. So again patience is important but moderation on all things including moderation, YMMV.
@Dan_Brodribb, #586
That post is all kinds of awesome. Those levels remind me of how my view of religions evolved. I think I have arrived at stage three as a non-active religious pluralist. Now I can enjoy everyone’s holiday celebrations and free food without being antagonistic or hyper critical.
My attitude regarding the SMP battles is still evolving, though. I still get upset by narcissists (cads) and I side with the “victim” most of the time.
I think the main lesson in this “plate spinning” debate is that, from a female perspective, “don’t ask, don’t tell” is a terrible strategy.
When I first started dating my bf, I didn’t think he was dating anybody else (and he wasn’t), but I was still really quick to have the “relationship talk” just to be sure.
I think I’m kind of similar to Ted D. when it comes to hearing about previous partners etc. That sort of thing tends to bother me more than it should. I was actually very glad that I caught my bf while he was going through a long “dry spell”, but I’m probably weird. : P
In theory, I’m not against guys “spinning plates” as long as there’s no dishonesty involved. But also I think that I would be very hurt if a guy was to kiss me one day and then have sex with somebody else the next. If that strategy works then for you then great, but I don’t think I would have what it takes to date a “spinner”.
@Dan_Brodribb Thanks for your comment. It made me think of the 3 stages of interactions in 7 Habits of Highly Effective people (dependent, independent, and then interdependent) and also the 3 levels in David Deida’s writings that are basically similar (Dependence, 50/50, and Intimate Communion).
Pre-red-pill seems very similar to dependent in many though not all cases, independent or 50/50 seems like a lot of women and some men these days and then intimate communion is where two emotionally healthy people come together in love to reach heights that neither alone nor in the lower 2 stages can be achieved. I think good relationships in the past have been able to reach this 3rd stage too but most relns. were 1st stage dependent ones.
Would be curious to hear your thoughts on the post red pill world.
@ Michael:
Are you aware that when you google that name this is photo that comes up?
http://syedelin.blogbloc.com/uploads/edward_maya_2009_04.jpg
I did a double take before clicking on the images tab :lol;
@ Emily:
Well, I guess I’m weird too! I’m not fond about hearing about Exes either. Also, before I met my bf I had been single for about two years, which to me felt like a very long time. I was surprised yet happy to learn he had been single for twice as long!
@ J
INTPs, in contrast, seek to understand everything and everyone. They are often wellsprings of compassion .
I used to be an INTP pre-red pill. I didn’t automatically pick up on other’s feelings but if I made an effort… wow. I could accurately predict how people were feeling in the moment concurrently with my own feelings. This meant very good things inside a relationship.
On the other hand I’d go around judging my INTJ friends for their lack of empathy. They’d say ‘You see it like me, you know its not a big deal’ and I’d say ‘I know its trivial but its important to them. You’re judging them and making them feel like crap.’ Fun times.
The only crap thing about being an INTP is sharing superfluous information that you used to come to a conclusion or decision. People don’t care and it comes off as Sherlock Holmesian humblebragging.
Well, I guess I’m weird too! I’m not fond about hearing about Exes either. Also, before I met my bf I had been single for about two years, which to me felt like a very long time. I was surprised yet happy to learn he had been single for twice as long!
Hubby was single for around a year when we meet. Funny enough when we were dating he told me that at a concert he goes every year a cute girl started to talk to him and he didn’t made any move because of me of course and he tells this never happened to him before it was similar for me after years of loneliness I had more proposals than before, of course most of them knew I had a boyfriend overseas and were looking for some sort of no string arrangement thinking I might be lonely and needed a dick to soothe my loneliness such nobility…. We commented on this “Typical, when you finally find someone other people finally find you attractive” we mostly amused ourselves with the situation knowing that we were done with the dating scene and neither of us had the slightest interest on going back to it, but it was indeed and interest comment on pre-selection. Pity those who only can see the good in others when someone else points it out.
@ Hope 522
I think girls should not collect “orbiters.” Even if she doesn’t think there’s anything between them, having them around is still giving her validation and attention. …. Because I’ve seen the kind of damage it can do, I reserve that level of interaction for my husband only.
I think this is a good idea and its my ideal once I find a partner. I’m of course willing to drop my orbiters too. I’ve been one of the guys on the outside and seen girls in LTRs come to me for emotional comfort. It shouldn’t be like that and if I was the guy on the inside, I would definitely be uncomfortable with the stimulus she’s seeking outside the relationship.
I agree that romance novels of the 70′s and 870′s, as well as telenovelas, were/are far less concerned with portraying the Strong Independent WomanTM as heroines. Nevertheless, over the past 10 or fifteen years at least most romance novels published in the English speaking world have moved increasingly in this direction. (Fifty Shades is very much an exception). Moreover, most Romance blogs and websites are emphatically feminist in outlook – the demand is always for a “strong” heroine, defined as one who takes no sh*t from the hero. More traditional heroines are described as doormats, and the novels of the 70′s and 80′s are derided as “old skool.”
Love triangles in romance novels basically exist to satisfy what The Blogger Who Shall Not Be Named called the fantasy of endless choice. The focus is very much on a heroine choosing between two eligible, high-status males. In most cases this scenario is a fantasy, because the heroine’s SMV is not especially high. It’s as though Brad Pitt and George Clooney were fighting for the attentions of Ms. Average.
You almost never see love triangles featuring two women competing for the hero’s attention. In fact, there is a species unique to Romancelandia – the hot alpha male with no romantic or sexual options. This is a relatively recent development – twenty years or so ago both the Other Man and the Other Woman were featured prominently. The latter has now virtually disappeared, although the psycho ex-wife/girlfriend/mistress may appear occasionally.
Sadly, this is now the norm rather than the exception in action/scifi films, TV shows and novels. The kickass heroine can be fun if she is depicted well – think of Diana Rigg in The Avengers or Sigourney Weaver in the Alien movies – but all too often the plot and characterization are so implausible that they verge on the ludicrous.
@ Dan 586
The first level, you learn about people from what they say.
In Red Pill Land you learn about people from what they do.
And on the next level you start to learn about people from who they are.
Yes. Not many people talk about how things are years after taking the red pill because its still quite new to most people. It’s been 4 years for me and I’ve been through the bitterness, cynicism and finally acceptance. I’ve got a lot more tolerance for women ‘lying’ or otherwise objectively being immoral because I see their motivations. The INTP in me again.
@ Emily
In theory, I’m not against guys “spinning plates” as long as there’s no dishonesty involved. But also I think that I would be very hurt if a guy was to kiss me one day and then have sex with somebody else the next. If that strategy works then for you then great, but I don’t think I would have what it takes to date a “spinner”.
Lets say in theory I met a wonderful quality girl while spinning plates. She had the DTR talk early, pre sex. I would consider it presumptuous.
That said if she was a quality girl I would expect some serious emotional escalation on her part for me to give up my plates. Again the monogamy commitment pre-sex is great for girls, but not for guys. I would want some serious statements of intent from her that she wanted to take this further. I would need to feel that she was emotionally available for bonding and I was almost 100% sure there was no one else in her life (orbiters included).
I’d let her know what my expectations were and if she couldn’t meet them I would tell her that I wasn’t ready for that commitment. It would be up to her to leave or stay, but she would know my concerns so it wouldn’t come off as ‘he’s a player that is commitment phobic’.
Previous posters have talked about the girls hanging around briefly once they find out their guy is plate spinning to ‘see if they have a chance’. That window is probably where the girl should be emotionally escalating to get the guy to lock it down.
Girls should understand the emotional risks that guys face too. I know in a perfect world all men will be non-needy while in a 6 month dry patch with no other girls in their lives and be instantly available for commitment whenever the girl decides she is ready. This is not the world we are living in and you can’t expect guys to suppress their own interests so you can have a 100% risk free dating experience. Such suppression would be supplication and unattractive anyway.
Nevertheless, over the past 10 or fifteen years at least most romance novels published in the English speaking world have moved increasingly in this direction. (Fifty Shades is very much an exception). Moreover, most Romance blogs and websites are emphatically feminist in outlook – the demand is always for a “strong” heroine, defined as one who takes no sh*t from the hero. More traditional heroines are described as doormats, and the novels of the 70′s and 80′s are derided as “old skool.”
Grerp has an article complaining about how she cannot buy the new bitchy, ugly leads with handsome millionaires that want nothing but support their careers and never want children or go their own way. I will say aside from Twilight I have a hard time getting passionate about a romances anymore, specially with how much cheating and bed hopping is done by the leading lady and now they are moving onto my next love that is fairytales, next time we will have sleeping beauty sleeping with half the town or something like it…so yeah. I must mention that 50 shades and Twilight are exceptions that had sold more than any of this “strong heroineTM” combined and had spurred a lot of passion in merchandise and crazyness, unlike other more “empowered” heroines. I think there is a lot of “I want this because is PC” more than “I want this because I love it!”, YMMV. And I’m sorry I’m too poor to buy things I don’t love so they are not making a lot of business with me at least. I will say internationally speaking there is a lot more love for the “sweet heroines” but that is slowly changing at different degrees.
Love triangles in romance novels basically exist to satisfy what The Blogger Who Shall Not Be Named called the fantasy of endless choice. The focus is very much on a heroine choosing between two eligible, high-status males. In most cases this scenario is a fantasy, because the heroine’s SMV is not especially high. It’s as though Brad Pitt and George Clooney were fighting for the attentions of Ms. Average.
True but again this depends on how is done in Twilight there was no doubt that Bella loved Edward and never though on not choosing him and Jacob was wasting his wolftime, thus there was a lot more hate for the situation than any choice, at least in the way is presented. In fact some people criticizes SMeyer for making it so one sided and not adding a proper love triangle to the story. I particularly would had quit the series if there was any real love triangle going on since I despise them. I tolerated it because it lasted all but 5 pages and it was more about everyone making Bella feel like a bitch for not accepting Jacob instead of Edward and no one telling her “well it will be better for Jacob if you just stop talking to him no matter what your father, your mother and himself say” so yeah…
I think True Blood and Vampires Diaries are like this more with the “choice of two Alpha men” but then I don’t read/watch those shows for that very same reason.
You almost never see love triangles featuring two women competing for the hero’s attention. In fact, there is a species unique to Romancelandia – the hot alpha male with no romantic or sexual options. This is a relatively recent development – twenty years or so ago both the Other Man and the Other Woman were featured prominently.
That one is another part I don’t get much. I can buy it if properly explained, like in Twilight, but is true, in most traditional romances the leading man had at least two other women interested: The villainess doing all she could to destroy the relationship and then someone almost as good as the heroine not good enough of course. The heroine had a similar set of suitors the villain (usually teaming out with the villainess) and an almost perfect one. Again the idea was to sort of test their love so it doesn’t look like they just are together for no reason at all and to add to the tension, because is easy to see that once they know how bad the other suitors are they will be back to each other arms but if the guy and girl are almost as good you can actually see how they could end up with other people. Again all this is lost, like you mention.
I do want to point out that his is another proof that women don’t want to share a man not even in fantasy. We had this discussion about how even if she wants to compete with other women she wants to win, even the feminists that might be accepting the harem girl status, long for getting the man for themselves.
I will also mention that the only popular triangle with a male in the center is Archie comics, but they predate the sex revolution so is probably okay because they are classics and they have a gay character now, that should keep the PC crowd silent for a day or two.
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