An interesting debate on the concept of “lying by omission” has sprung up in the most recent comment thread. Specifically, we’ve been discussing the strategic vs. moral implications of having sex with multiple people, while evaluating which of those people, if any, you’d like to be exclusive with. What are you morally obligated to disclose about your sexual motives and activities to your various partners?
Obviously, if all parties are fully aware that the sex is no-strings and concurrent with other sexual relationships, it’s “No harm, No foul.” Everyone is making an informed decision. However, from there it’s only a hop, skip and a jump to “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” This may also be agreed upon, as in an open relationship: “I don’t care if you have affairs, but I don’t want to know anything about them.”
In today’s SMP “Don’t ask, don’t tell” has become the go-to strategy of opportunists trying to squeeze out personal gain at the expense of someone else while taking cover under a plea of ignorance. It may take the form of a woman leading a guy on to get the benefits of commitment without allowing the relationship to become sexual. Or a guy may lead a woman on to get sex without ever intending to offer commitment.
Generally, intentional misleading is referred to as lying by omission. While some commenters have stated that they believe the phrase is an oxymoron, it has been widely explored as a potential form of dishonesty by philosophers, ethicists and mental health counselors.
From Wikipedia:
Lying by omission
Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. When the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission.
As I began to research lying, I was surprised to find that the topic of dishonesty has been a hotly debated topic for hundreds of years. From an article about the ground rules of lying in Time Magazine:
When is it permissible to tell a lie? Never, according to Augustine and Kant. Machiavelli approved lying for princes, Nietzsche for the exceptional hero—the Superman.
Tim Mazur is an ethicist and the COO of the Ethics and Compliance Officer Association. His article on lying for the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University has been frequently cited. He outlines the three philosophies that deal with the problem of lying:
I. Morality
The philosopher Immanuel Kant said that lying was always morally wrong. He argued that all persons are born with an “intrinsic worth” that he called human dignity.
…Lying corrupts the most important quality of my being human: my ability to make free, rational choices. Each lie I tell contradicts the part of me that gives me moral worth. My lies rob others of their freedom to choose rationally. When my lie leads people to decide other than they would had they known the truth, I have harmed their human dignity and autonomy.
In Kant’s view, which is also shared by Augustine, lying is wrong no matter what. For example, it is wrong to lie about your sister’s whereabouts in order to protect her from her abusive husband in this strict view.
II. Virtue Ethics
Virtue ethics also maintains that lying is morally wrong, though less strictly than Kant…Though the nature of virtue ethics makes it difficult to assess the morality of individual acts, those who advocate this theory generally consider lying wrong because it opposes the virtue of honesty. There is some debate whether a lie told in pursuit of another virtue is right or wrong.
III. Utilitarian Ethics
According to utilitarian ethics, Kant and virtue ethicists ignore the only test necessary for judging the morality of a lie – balancing the benefits and harms of its consequences. Utilitarians base their reasoning on the claim that actions, including lying, are morally acceptable when the resulting consequences maximize benefit or minimize harm.
Unsurprisingly, utilitarian ethics comes under intense criticism for its rejection of morality in favor of a flexibility to be defined by the liar. According to Mazur, “People often poorly estimate the consequences of their actions or specifically undervalue or ignore the harmful consequences to society (e.g., mistrust) that their lies cause…The problem is that too few persons adequately consider any ethical perspective when facing a situation that tempts a lie.”
Why We Lie So Much, and Lies, Lies, Lies, articles in Time Magazine, describe a sharp rise in the frequency of lying in contemporary society.
Lies flourish in social uncertainty, when people no longer understand, or agree on, the rules governing their behavior toward one another.
…We are living in a time and culture in which it’s easier to lie than it has been in the past. The message that pervades society is that it’s O.K. to lie — you can get away with it. One of the things I found in my research is that when you confront people with their lies, they very rarely display remorse. Lying is not seen as being morally reprehensible in any strong way.
You can make the assumption that because it often makes social interactions go more smoothly, lying is O.K. But there is a cost to even seemingly benign lies…Lies put a smudge on an interaction, and if it’s easy to lie to people in minor ways, it becomes easier to lie in bigger ways.
UCLA Political Science Professor Barry O’Neill has written A Formal System For Understanding Lies and Deceit. In it he describes a kind of lying via manipulation:
Manipulation is inducing someone to do something while withholding information relevant to their decision, information that they would want to know. Another is to say that manipulation occurs when one persuades another using knowledge of their particular psychology, rather than rational means. Both of these touch on the idea of the idea that the manipulator is using broader knowledge than the victim.
One example is “when the person does nothing active to induce a false belief, but deliberately hides their own actions that would correct it.” Another is “evasive talk, often to avoid blame. It is a lie but does not include anything literally false.”
The All-Important Question of Intent
In yet another Time article about the lying that goes on in political campaigns, writer Paul Gray acknowledges he difficulty of judging the morality of lies, but sees a solution:
Fortunately, there is a way out of this logical blind alley. All lies, regardless of their relationship to the truth, have one thing in common.
“We must single out,” writes Sissela Bok in Lying, “from the countless ways in which we blunder misinformed through life, that which is done with the intention to mislead.” Lies may confuse everyone who hears them, as they are meant to, but liars know exactly what they are doing while they are doing it.
In Telling Lies, Paul Ekman, a professor of psychology at the University of California medical school in San Francisco, provides a slightly more elaborate definition: “One person intends to mislead another, doing so deliberately, without prior notification of this purpose, and without having been explicitly asked to do so by the target. There are two primary ways to lie: to conceal and to falsify.”
Clearly, lying by commission is to falsify with deliberation, and lying by omission is to conceal with deliberation. Why is it so easy to conceal the truth from people? According to Eben Harrell at Time:
We are not very good at detecting deception in other people. When we are trying to detect honesty, we look at the wrong kinds of nonverbal behaviors, and we misinterpret them. The problem is that there is no direct correlation between someone’s nonverbal behavior and their honesty.
What’s more, a lot of the time, we don’t want to detect lies in other people. We are unwilling to put forward the cognitive effort to suspect the veracity of statements, and we aren’t motivated to question people when they tell us things we want to hear.
This last statement is crucial in our understanding of the impact of lying by omission. Each one of us is responsible for putting forth the required cognitive effort to make good decisions, and when we enter a state of denial we willingly avoid the truth. When we fail to do these things we commit an error of judgment, but not one of morality.
This does not in any way dilute or supersede examination of the morality of the person who does conceal. When it comes to ethical issues, intent is king.
Alex Lickerman, MD is a Buddhist physican who reflects on issues of morality. He suggests that all deceit is designed to offer protection for:
- Ourselves: avoid suffering painful consequences,shame, embarrassment, or conflict.
- Our interests: to get what we want.
- Our image: to look better to others.
- Our resources: to avoid doing what we don’t want to do.
- Others: spare others’ feelings.
What are the implications for relationships?
1. If you have information that you believe might change another person’s choice about whether to enter a sexual or dating relationship with you, you are morally obligated to reveal, rather than conceal it.
2. It is invalid to excuse lying by omission by deploying utilitarian ethics or moral equivalency. Examples might include:
- “Lots of men lie to women and lead them on, so I should be able to do the same thing to them.”
- “Feminism screwed up the SMP so badly that lying by omission is necessary to level the playing field. This will benefit society.”
- “Creating a mentality of abundance requires concealment, because honesty would reduce my options.”
- “High heels, push-up bras and makeup are all forms of lying. This deception is no different.”
- “It’s for his own benefit, I think he’d really rather not know.”
3. Our culture rewards liars. Seek a partner who subscribes to a value system of honesty as a virtue. Reject any involvement with a person who relies on utilitarian principles for moral guidance.
4. Finally, the National Survey of Family Growth found that 6.6% of American men have concurrent sexual relationships, though researchers believe the number is closer to 10%. This is a significant risk factor for STD transmission, especially for women. From WebMD:
Concurrent sexual relationships were particularly common among these groups:
- Unmarried men
- Men who had been in prison
- Men who reported being intoxicated while having sex
- Men who have had sex with men
- Men with female sex partners who had concurrent sexual relationships of their own
5. Habitual lying is a sociopathic behavior. It goes hand in hand with low empathy and is common among narcissists.
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@deti
I don’t think most people consider being asked on dates “brutalization.” I think if Jackie asked a security guard at the mall to help her, he would tell the guy to move along and promptly forget about it.
I think that very attractive women tend to get a lot of attention from cads. The guys who just don’t think they should be turned down by anyone, who see it as a challenge to win a woman over with his roguish charm. Most men are intimidated by beautiful women, but there is a subset of men who are indeed predatory in the way they express interest.
I will also say that you are directing all your snark at one of the most genuinely modest and virtuous people ever to grace this blog. It’s unwarranted and hostile.
Again, I was not arguing with, just looking to make sure that everyone understood the repercussions or a traditional approach.
And, to toot my own horn, I am the one that popularized the “Feature, not Bug” idea. Well, at least in these parts.
I just read Badger’s post. If I had been the woman in the story, I’d have offered to pay my end (especially since she asked to change the venue), but it would have been a clear signal that I was not interested in further contact. I would not have texted the next day; instead I’d have said thanks and delivered the polite brush off (Nice to meet you, take care, bye!) when I said goodnight. On the bright side for the male dater, the lost price of two glasses of wine isn’t exactly like losing the house payment. He took a slightly bigger gamble than he had origianlly bargained for, but I wouldn’t call the woman a golddigger for not offereing to pay. BUT, it would have been lady-like on her part.
I think that several factors can reduce the anxiety level that many men feel about heavy economic investment in this SMP. One, it isn’t usually necessary—casual sex opportunities are all over the place. Two, you can attempt to filter out gold-digging types by having 1-3 casual/coffee or martini-type dates first and making sure that there has been physical escalation before committing to a higher level of investment. Three, the date can be arranged so that it involves an activity that you would enjoy doing by yourself, anyway. Four, it can make you feel good about yourself—everyone can be elegant on warm, sunny days, but it takes discipline to be elegant when it costs you something and you appear to get nothing in return (but you actually did get something in return: you pleased yourself and maintained your own standards).
When I lived in NYC, I had a Jay Gatsby-like friend who diligently collected contact info on interesting, cool guys and hyper-attractive women (about 65-70% of the contacts were women). He had something like 700 people on the list and would host parties every other week or so, sending out a mass e-mail invitation. 10-20% of the list members would routinely show up, often bringing friends and so on.
One of his express purposes for these parties was to provide a venue where men could take women on first or second dates. The cost was minimal—probably a bottle of Grey Goose. I think he loosely tracked the sexual success rate of men who brought dates to these events and it was north of 85%.
@Susan (#735)
UGH!!! Yuck
That is egregiously gross and BAD behavior from that guy. I repeat, YUCK.
This is my policy: In the beginning I don’t reply to texts or calls after 11p. And if the guy had texted even the first line before 11p “No, I wanna meet now,” the proper response is NO response, as far as I’m concerned! Because she is giving him attention, even by replying no. It can be really tempting to want to tell someone off, but stony silence can speak *volumes*.
I would seriously love to make these “offenders” all enroll in charm school or cotillion. Make them learn social etiquette where girls are charming and fun and see that they don’t have to sink to the gutter.
I really want to believe that under the swagger and bluster, men want love and a good relationship as much as women do. The SMP is such a hot mess of crazy, though!
Susan 751
It’s been explained why this happens to Jackie more than most other women. I got it. I think lm is overblowing it as a rampant problem that happens to every woman all the time everywhere. I get that it can be a more frequent problem for very physically attractive women.
What laws protect women from being approached in public? Asked for a date? Asked for a phone number? Pleaded with? Or even being followed to one’s car? I am not even sure there are laws preventing women from being touched, though sexual assault might be claimed. Good luck with that.
Just to add something quickly: if you split dates into casual “Cafe/Museum” dating, more expensive and fancy “High Culture” dating, adventurous “Outdoors Fun” dating, and “Domestic” (home cooking, etc.) dating. I would not personally try to use the High Culture format to screen for LTR material. The Cafe, Outdoors, and Domestic style stuff would probably prove more effective as a filter, and these are a more accurate simulation of what an LTR with this person will be like.
I won’t tell Edward Cullen
, but Ana! Greasy black hair and a chip on the shoulder? I felt sorry for the Snapester– tons of unrealized potential– but where is the attraction?!?
Heh I’m a sucker for the lonely type and Snape did a lot behind the scenes to protect Harry, and he won the trust and friendship of DD. I know he had issues but doing the right thing in spite of how much you hate yourself or what other things of you is waaaay more important. I knew he was going to die (too much blood shed on his presence) but he was indeed one of the bravest men on the books.
I also feel that JK didn’t delivered on Slytherin kids when the singing hat said that all houses will have to join to fight the evil lord I though he meant the four house for real not the travesty we saw, you almost left thinking why the wizards allow this house to exist at all if all they do is cause problems and create future death eaters, not a smart to have all the problematic kids isolated to plot whatever they want to IMO, YMMV.
If the guys here don’t already know this, I want to make it clear that bringing flowers to a date is akin to dating suicide. That is a totally supplicating gesture. Only do it if you plan to arrive in a horse-drawn carriage.
In a relationship? Sure, for a sometimes treat or special occasion. I love how Tom Hanks brings Meg Ryan daisies when she’s sick in You’ve Got Mail. Or a casual bouquet if she’s having you over for dinner.
@M3
I really like this
@Jackie
Agreed, she should have ignored him from the start. Live and learn. To her credit, she did not reply the second weekend.
All this ducking and combat in dating by men would be close to non-existent and replaced by willing generosity if nearly all women were know to be low N.
Jeez, I don’t know about that. Back in the Pleistoscene when I was still a virgin, there were still plenty of guys who expected some sexual contact, if not actual intercourse, for the price of a drink or a piece of pizza. My father (who’d be in his mid-90s if he were still alive) made it a practice to take me and my mom out for expensive dinners on a regular basis during my teen years SPECIFICALLY because he didn’t want me to be bowled over by the first guy who bought a fancy dinner. I assume that even at his advanced age, he was familiar with the tactic.
@Susan
“What laws protect women from being approached in public? Asked for a date? Asked for a phone number?”
You gotta be fuckin with us.
“Pleaded with?”
Pathetic but not dangerous.
“Or even being followed to one’s car?”
Your right on this one.
“I am not even sure there are laws preventing women from being touched, though sexual assault might be claimed. Good luck with that.”
No luck needed. Just charge with assault and battery. No sexy needed.
@M3
“I have no problem being a emotionally available smush and a gentleman… providing the lady has proven herself to be a lady worthy of my investment. And in this day and age, market and SMP, having discovered MGTOW (and im sure im not alone) it is the woman who must qualify to me if they want to be treated by the greater beta in me, not the alpha in me who protects the beta from being abused.”
.
M3, you just sound like the sweetest guy with the biggest heart. I hope you find an awesome lady with an equally marshmallow-like center to be completely sweet to each other.
(Don’t tell Just1X, but I hope he gets the British equivalent, too
)
I am so sorry that you were ever abused, M3. NO ONE deserves abuse. Take care, Mike–
@Susan
“Agreed, she should have ignored him from the start. Live and learn. To her credit, she did not reply the second weekend.”
Good for her! Awesome learning curve.
TBH, I had to learn this lesson the hard way (and more than once, too!)
“Dominance often is predatory and violent. That’s why women prefer prestige to dominance. The most dominant males in society are often abusive, violent, and criminal.”
That is based on a bullshit definition of dominance where dominance was defined as involving intimidation, fear etc. which is completely different from the more commanding presence, frame control based form of dominance we have always been discussing here and which PUAs have always been talking about. Certainly none of the friends I have which I define as dominant are recognizable in the dominance definition of that bullshit study.
Jackie,
That sounds like a really terrifying experience. I’m glad you’re OK. While NAMALT, this is truly a black swan experience. The impact is huge and illustrates why women do need to be cautious.
@Wudang
OK, let’s ignore that study. Still, would you classify most thugs and hardened criminals as alphas or betas? Are alphas or betas more likely to be sociopathic or psychopathic? Are dominant men more aggressive? Is a dominant male more or less likely to use physical force than one who lacks dominance? Who is more likely to have anger management issues? Do you think dominance is related to empathy and other signs of EQ? Why do the most dominant males have difficulty working in corporate settings, often requiring 360 evaluations and intense coaching to develop collaborative and cooperative skills?
Dominance can be good for society, in the form of leadership, conviction, etc. And it can also be very bad for society. The most dominant men I have known were not good men. They were charming, good with women, and violent. Obviously, it’s impossible to generalize – but dominance cuts both ways.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who has a thing for Snape.
I’ve actually always had a bit of a soft spot for slightly weird guys with long hair. It’s kind of random. …and then there’s the whole Alan Rickman voice factor…
>> ” you almost left thinking why the wizards allow this house to exist at all if all they do is cause problems and create future death eaters, not a smart to have all the problematic kids isolated to plot whatever they want to”
IMO JK Rowling was kind of lazy when she designed the houses. My sister recently got sorted into Hufflepuff (Pottermore) and now we won’t let her hear the end of it. : P
surely these guys exist, but in my almost 42 years on the planet, I’ve only every heard of this type of thing actually happening a few (maybe 3) times
I believe her. I’m a relatively modest dresser and old enough to be Jackie’s mom, and I still get unwelcome advances. Not as frightening as what happened to Jackie, but occasionally the odd, disappointed male mutters “Bitch!” under his breath as I walk away after flashing the wedding ring. And I had some scary experiences as a young woman as well.
Jackie 765
Thanks Jackie. The marshmallow comment takes me back. My exwife used to always tell me to be gentle with her because tho she hard a hard exterior, but that she was very soft inside (all sexual puns aside)… and i did think of her as my marshmallow. And it was playing to that marshmallow that made me so beta, it unraveled everything. I wanted that squishy complement so badly. I know i can’t judge every women by my one experience, but it was the one experience that mattered to me, and i got nuked hard for my troubles. It’s why you see me Jekyll & Hyde a lot. One part of me knows who i am and what i yearn for, the other tries to protect me now and tell me not to be fooled again. That would be shame on me.
Hehe. I’m sure he’ll see the comment soon enough and come back with some dry whit and stiff upper lip remark.
As an aside, i am sorry you have to endure what you do. In a perfect world you wouldn’t have to. I had a post not too long ago about objectification, dress, mannerism and attraction. For a really beautiful, outgoing, extroverted woman.. it can be hard to act around people that doesn’t come off as a signal of interest (beyond social interaction). Some guys have class, some do not. But we can’t choose who will take notice of what we’re wearing or what they’re attracted to. We all want to get noticed, but only by those whom we view as suitors. Everyone else we would want their gaze cast elsewhere, but that’s not how the world works. David Beckham is probably one of the most objectified men in the world, and he takes it with smile. Course, he’s a guy, so he’s basking in what 95% of guys will never experience. Also, he doesn’t have to worry about being overpowered or groped n fondled against his will or stalked in a parking lot. Yours is an almost worst case scenario where but thankfully you were not assaulted. But there are others who would simply treat a stare or gaze or comment as an assault which dilutes injury. When me and others talk of how often x happens vs. y, we don’t belittle what you went through. Yours is a much more unique experience than you realize. I hope it’s one you won’t have to experience again.
Lm is plain Jane again. How’s the penis grater working these days?
When someone invites you to do something, you either accept or decline, not rework it to your liking.
Or at least rework it into something similar, like “Gosh, I’m allergic to horses, how about swimming instead of horseback riding?” as opposed to “Gosh, I’m allergic to horses, how about flying to Paris for dinner instead of horseback riding?”
>> “Lm is plain Jane again.”
I thought she might be, but I figured I’d wait for somebody else to raise the alarm. Even if she’s not, she’s still a troll of some sort.
@Ramble #710
I have to admit that I’d go for that. In fact, I’ve been to the Lego store.
Sure, dominant personality + being emotionally messed up will more easily lead to more of those things but it has nothing per se to do with being any of those. Dominance is often perceived as negative per se which it is not. For example the word socially dominant is very offensive to a lot of women, and men for that matter, even though they do like behavior that is in fact socially dominant if described in other words, they just don`t like the word. Same thing goes for in relationships where the man being dominant sounds almost evil in most peoples ears and like he is abusing her. There are many ways to be dominant and few of the men I know I think are dominant come of as intimidating or scare people to get their way.
Susan, be honest, a part of your soul died when you wrote that.
Does anyone else think that Im seems like the female version of Obsidian? The writing styles are uncannily similar….weird.
I’m LMAO, but yeah, like Obs’ kid sister, sort of.
and then there’s the whole Alan Rickman voice factor…
Alan Rickman’s voicemail!
IMO JK Rowling was kind of lazy when she designed the houses. My sister recently got sorted into Hufflepuff (Pottermore) and now we won’t let her hear the end of it. : P
I always though that this was a function of she delivering the books before she finished the last one. As a writer sometimes your character just decide to go in a different route and you don’t know till you are there. I will try to finish everything before I release the books, but they are only three I do plan to write seven books around the cardinal sins and the end of the world but that will take me a long time and my characters are still in the “seed” stage so I probably start and not shop around for a publisher till I’m sure is done and done. Writing is as much as a journey for the ones doing the craft than is for the reader, IME.
Sue: “That’s ironic, because a common claim on PUA sites is that hot women get overtly hit on ten times a day.”
Being approached 10x a day is not the same as being harassed 10x a day. Further, very few women are that hot. Remember the OKC bell curve.
My wife read this and remarked that she’s never been harassed, but I’ve seen her been hit on constantly since she was 18. She knows how carry herself confidently, shut down men quickly. However, she has never lived in a big city and couldn’t be a pro model or actress (SMV 9+). Anyone who is 9 usually earns their living on their looks either directly (model, actress) or indirectly (sales, drug rep, bartender, etc.) for a huge cash bonus.
@Emily
Sorry here is the link to the voicemail for real: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDTBiEOoslc
I don`t fear women who go on dates just for the food or drinks. That has to be a very small phenomenon. I fear women who go on dates for attention and fun for free with men they understand or really should understand they aren`t really going to be interested in tingle wise. That is quite prevalent IMO, in the same way orbiters are. I don`t know a single woman who has gone on a date just for food and drinks but I do know many who go on dates where they know or should know they are just wasting a guys time and resources and setting him up to be hurt by getting his hopes up because it will clearly never happen as he is too far below her. I`ve actually told a couple of women that they should take more care in this because the guy will get a huge crush thinking he can get with a woman hotter than he would expect and to their credit they have taken more care after that to ask themselves honestly if they really think it is a meaningful date or just fun for them that will lead to heartache for him.
I would suggest that you get mace,
In many places, mace is illegal. It can also blow into your face if the wind shifts. Here is a trick my dear old alpha thug daddy taught me: Place your keys inside your fist, pulling individual keys out between your fingers. Grip tightly when punching; aim for the eyes if attacked.
Being approached 10x a day is not the same as being harassed 10x a day. Further, very few women are that hot.
Actually, it’s the second hottest group of wmen who get hit on frequently. The professionally beautiful, or the 9s and 10s, are too unapprochable. It’s best to be in the “very attractive for a normal girl” range.
Mike C,
Jason,
You’re fiance is a fitness competitor right? Did you meet her in the gym?
Yup…she did some shows in 2009 and 2010, but has been on hiatus since then. I did meet her in the gym. I sort of “cheated” a bit in that I was friends with the guy working the desk so I had him do recon on her for me which is how I learned she used to be very overweight. I also arranged an “accidental” meeting at the front desk when she was meeting her trainer for a session, but that was super brief. The next conversational exchange was a situational opener from me mentioning “we should have a contest for who is here more”.
If you have any advice on a gym pickup, I’d be open to it.
I think situational openers work best in the gym because they are low key. There was one girl right around the same time I met my fiancee who was in the main gym area punching and kicking the punching bag. She actually had an impressive sidekick. I looked over at her and told her “she had one hell of a kick, and I wouldn’t want to piss her off” with kind of a smirk/smile. That opened the door for a conversation.
If your gym has a juice bar/protein shake bar, that is a good place to hang out sometimes post workout to strike up some conversations. I met a few attractive women simply hanging out there on a regular basis.
Another one although it can be a bit tricky is to offer up some advice on training tips, a different exercise, or exercise technique. Obviously, you have to look the part for this which I’m sure you do. I’ve had this work and I’ve had it backfire.
While I wouldn’t have a problem at most other venues, the gym seems like such an unnatural place to go about this, but the quality of females there is making me think twice.
Not sure about you, but for me there is just something unbelievably sexy about a woman really hitting the weights. But yeah…if you’ve got a girl who is serious about it, you already know she is into the lifestyle if you are as well which is huge to me. I’d have a hard time being with someone who doesn’t understand the regimentation, the diet, and that training really is a lifestyle priority. And of course, generally speaking, you are going to see a higher proportion of tight, attractive bodies at the gym than other more general venues.
Another thing is to be aware of and actively looking for IOIs. When I go to the gym, I usually enter focused warrior mode and I put myself into a pretty aggressive, unsociable state of mind, but when I was single I tried to keep in mind I was there to also prospect. Anyways, no doubt, good-looking cut up guys are going to catch female visual attention. I always tried to be kind of aware of who was checking me out in the middle of sets. You can always put that in your mental log, and at some point try to conveniently grab the cardio equipment right next to her and start a conversation with her because you know she is already interested.
Hope that helps somewhat.
Ted I agree with you. A woman should not lead a guy on just to get some nice dinners. I think most people will agree with that one. My friend who has been on Match has it happen all the time to him. Many of these women also have sex with him and then he never hears from them again. Looks like they are using him for a nice dinner and sex
Wrt ms lm:
First off i want to thank ms lm for coming here and making her views known. In so many ways she has given yet more proof of my positions. I find it deeply ironic that she pleads for logic by arguing in the manner she does lol. She is definitely a most interesting lady thats for sure.
1. On what basis do you state that those who complain about being bilked on dates are either broke or unimaginative? Since your opening shots and most pointed remarks on the matter were directed to me i must therefore assume you were thinking of me when you said such things. How do you know what i do or dont have or how imaginitive/unimaginative i am? Please explain?
2. Assuming that i or any other guy here is indeed poor and/or unimaginative what does that have to do with being defrauded/bilked? Please explain? A little while back i posted up a story about spreadsheet girl that was covered on the jezebl website last fall; the guys that were bilked were indeed wall street types. Several commenters to the story said basically the same as you. So lets examine this line of thought: assuming said guys could indeed afford the expense and didnt make a big deal of it, that wouldnt change the fact that they were bilked nonetheless. Just because you can afford being robbed doesnt make it any less a crime.
3. By your comments/positions above it is clear that you do not feel that a poor man deserves happiness/relationship, which is fine by me. In fact, again i thank you for your candor because i think you speak for a lot more women in this very forum than they would like to admit. Fellas please take ms lm and the rest of the ladies remarks on the issues surrounding ethics as a clarion case of just how and what they think of you especially if you happen to be poor and/or unimaginative.
4. Not only do i believe in such as thing as street harrassment i take it very seriously. Why? Because among other things it has happened to me-by (more often than not grossly unnattactive) women. So i know that its real. Nevertheless that still doesnt change the fact that women lie even if to get themselves out of a bad situation. A person who exalts the principles of logic such as yourself will or should understand this.
5. My dear, the obsidian didnt create the modern day smp nor did he have a hand in creating the circumstances that brought it about. I am merely playing the hand i was dealt and trying to help my brothas on the path as well. I am the least of you or anyone elses worries when it comes to todays dating/mating scene. If only taking me out of the scene would make things better!
6. Your question about what a man offers in terms of character is interesting since by all accounts character wont matter if a man is poor and/or unimaginative anyway. And im good with that. In fact nowhere in this dialogue have i ever said that women didnt have the right to do x y or zed. Just that they do indeed lie deceive and manipulate more than men on balance and that they are rarely if ever called on it.
O.
J: “Actually, it’s the second hottest group of wmen who get hit on frequently. The professionally beautiful, or the 9s and 10s, are too unapprochable. It’s best to be in the “very attractive for a normal girl” range.”
So, Jackie being a “9″ gets harassed once a week. That means an “8″ gets outright stalked/harassed (again, not approached) how often? 5x/week? 10? Help me out here.
Susan – thanks for the warm welcome.
J @ 785:
Actually, it’s the second hottest group of wmen who get hit on frequently. The professionally beautiful, or the 9s and 10s, are too unapprochable. It’s best to be in the “very attractive for a normal girl” range.
Cosign this. I had a group of extremely attractive friends in university, including one genuine 10 – I think she is still the most beautiful woman I have ever seen in person. And, she hardly ever dated, because the men were completely intimidated by her (all 5’2″ of her, lol). She got asked to a formal event near the end of frosh year and was so excited. It was a little sad, because she’s also one of the sweetest, most lovable people I’ve known. We’ve lost touch since, but I do hope she found someone brave!
As a group, though, we tended to keep to ourselves a bit, in part because the rest of us would get hit on mercilessly any time we went to a bar or club. It made going out places unpleasant instead of fun, since none of us were remotely interested in the hook-up scene. Which wasn’t the same in the mid-90s as now, obviously, but it certainly existed.
Also cosign the comment about holding your keys at the ready – just make sure to make a proper fist, no tucking your thumb in!
Lastly, a man who is a legitimate cheapskate is indeed unattractive. I’ve run
into two men who were the epitome of the word “cheapskate”
———————————————————————-
The first question my ex husband asked the marriage counsellor was if he would discount the fee.
you can bet that made me feel great. Like the marriage wasnt worth spendng any money on.
Relaxed attitudes and hookup culture, increased earning power and independence of women financially has all but destroyed the traditional dating scene. it’s not feasible to expect it from the onset.
The only ones who still expect it from date 1 are the entitled or the delusional. I see it plastered all over dating profiles now.
1st date
-something casual, coffee, drinks, walk in the park, to feel each other out, see if theres a spark/connection, etc..
Nobody nowadays takes on a first date to be of any significance other than 2 dogs sniffing each others butt to see if they like each other or want to scrap.
I’ve been out of the game for some time, but when i was courting the wife, it was a similar script. I didn’t buy anything outright other than perhaps a coffee (2 bucks is no skin off my back), and no major dinner or movie dates at the start. It was just hanging out in social areas, and walks/roaming around. I used this time to flush out details about what she liked/disliked and commited to memory, so that when the time arose and i saw she was really digging me and clung to me like a hawk to a tuna, i’d surprise her by stopping us in front of the ice cream store and buying her a raspberry flavored cone (because i learned raspberries were her fave). seeing her face light up while clapping her hands like a 6year old melted me to the core. that feeling was priceless compared to the cost of the cone.
the more she dug me, the more i allowed myself to escalate buying her things, not based on expense, but on sentimental value to her. dinners out were much later on when we knew each other well enough to eat like medieval knights at the table (fork? what is this devilry?)
i really miss those days. but it would be a rinse repeat for me today with anyone else. i will only escalate in terms of paying and fulfilling the more chivalrous role ONLY if the female shows genuine interest and attraction to who i am without doling out big bucks or extravagance. I need to see her tingle for me for who i am, not for what i can do for her.
flight risks go home empty handed.
Also wanted to add the Captain’s thoughts on this. Although he’s referencing his old player days and Roosh, he goes into the economics of just regular coffee dates and you see for yourself what guys are up against in terms of investment costs. It’s a fun read.
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.ca/2012/07/costs-of-playerhood.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
@ms sassy:
The “reason” why youve yet to actually have to use your bottle of mace spray is because if/when you run into some trouble you can be relatively sure that men you dont know and will likely never see again will literally lay their lives on the line to defend you. No man here-especially a brotha like me-can say any such thing.
And since i was the one to get this whole ball of wax rolling to begin with i think its only right to go into a bit of why i do what i do. Cafe date theory is only an extension of my overall life philosophy which is that as a black man, the ONLY one whos got my back is ME. Women can be assured that if they suffer disress they can and will get help. I cant say that.
Thats not said to elicit sympathy or whatever just being brutally real. At the risk of offending my white brothers here even they can get stuff i cant get. This mindset explains a great deal why brothas act as they do when it comes to relationships. Black men live in a very hostile world where pain or death is only a heartbeat away no matter if you hang on the block as a youngbuck or if youre trying to break into your own crib as a middle aged academic.
Most brothas aint got it like that to get repeatedly took by women who for whatever reason wasnt feeling him. So we came up with ways to protect ourselves just like we came up with ways to protect ourselves in every other area of american life.
And, heck what you heard, cafe date theory WORKS. Ive extensively field tested it and trust me, it most definitely DOES weed out the bilkers.
So again, while i hear what you, jackie, lm etc et al are saying, i maintain that bilkers being out there is a real thing; put them together with what wudang talked about-gals who are sitting on the fence and going out to try and see if something can happen even though they know they aint feeling dude and, just was bored and needed a free night out-and hell yes, you got one big huge problemo on your hands if your guy.
As ive said earlier, this entire culture is geared around the needs/interests of women; men are on their own. Bill oreilly had it right: fellas, whos lookin out for you?
The obsidian is.
O.
The prevailing attitude amongst all the female commenters and even some of the male commenters is “whoever asks pays.” Well I’m not asking.
@ms hope:
W/all due respect while i hearwhat youre saying about yourself in relation to women like ms jackie, correct me if im wrong but asian women in the usa overall have a very good “put a ring on it” ratio when compared to other groups of american women especially black women. By all accounts asian women do quite well in the marriage market.
And while no doubt the better looking gals higher up on the scale is going to get more attention on the street lets not forget the fact that the chubby nerdy gals can at least still get to mate whereas entire swaths of guys are entirely shutout of mating altogether. I mean thats pretty foul if you ask me.
O.
@J
“That sounds like a really terrifying experience. I’m glad you’re OK. While NAMALT, this is truly a black swan experience. The impact is huge and illustrates why women do need to be cautious.”
Hi J,
Something I realized today– and this is part of what Hope said– is that I need to work on being assertive.
Thanks for the good wishes and kind thoughts.
J, I was socialized pretty heavily to focus on the good in others, to compliment their charms, with a heaping dose of “being a good Christian.” Like Hope said, that makes you easy prey to certain types. My sister used to take it upon herself to be my chaperone for dates whenever she had the chance. The guys *hated* it, as she was rather adept with the “evil eye.”
So I need to work at asserting myself! ‘Cause even when that jerk said those offensive and humiliating things, all I could do was turn away and say, Please don’t insult me like this.
I am going to write scripts and practice them with a friend. Here is one my landlord told me: BACK OFF!! I just said that right now to the cat. =^..^= Thanks again, dear J
@Ana & Emily
Have you girls seen “Sense and Sensibility”– the movie, not the BBC series? Because Alan Rickman is Colonel Brandon in that and it is SOOOOOOO good.
He is so sweet to Marianne and a truly good and heroic character. The subtitle should be “Triumph of the Betas, Death and Dishonor to the Alphas” (Willowby was the biggest cad on the planet
)
It was on Netflix streaming, but someone has made a grave error and committed a travesty by removing it.
DARN IT.
@M3
M3, forgive me for asking, but is there any chance your wife will repent, ask forgiveness and reconcile with you? I just think divorce is like a death and hurts people so much. The thought of you (and Just1X) wounded is horrible– you are both such amazing and intelligent men.
If it’s not possible, than would you let my Rosary group pray for your healing? Having people “hold you to the Light” and support you is powerful, even if you don’t believe in religion or God.
So, Jackie being a “9″ gets harassed once a week. That means an “8″ gets outright stalked/harassed (again, not approached) how often? 5x/week? 10? Help me out here.
LOL. I guess the way in which I responded was sort of unclear. Harassers probably work from a different emotional basis and probably feel free to harass anyone who comes their way. The average guy finds 8s more approachable than 9s.
That being said, while I doubt every unwanted exchange between Jackie and random guys is as scary as the one she described here, I would not be surprised if she does indeed have one bad experience a week. While NAMALT, shit really does happen. I find her story fairly easy to believe.
Over dinner, I found myself thinking about one incident in which I was stopped at a red light, and a guy stuck his hand in my car window and attempted to open my door. I cranked the window shut on his arm and slowly drove ahead with him still attached and calling me every dirty name in the book. He wiggled free. Another time, a guy followed my car off the freeway, through a tortuous route of city streets I took trying to lose him. In the end, he tailed me to the police department and then took off like a shot.
Also cosign the comment about holding your keys at the ready – just make sure to make a proper fist, no tucking your thumb in!
Good reminder, Tassie. Leaving your thumb in is a good eay to break it.
@Jackie
He was really good in it indeed, I would call it destroying a friendzone of the size of the Everest, because that was what Marianne did with him really early. I also love when Elinor breaks on tears so emotionally satisfying.
I do have a pet peeve on that version though they eliminated from the book the part where Marianne says that she could never be with a man that fathered a kid outside marriage it was a good sign that she indeed was just not crazy and had integrity. I also read it as she sympathizing with a girl as poor as she was but that was even more unlucky given that she didn’t had a family or a good name that would protect her from the likes of Willogby. Aside from that I almost try not to remember that Ang Lee directed it when I watch it.
J, I was socialized pretty heavily to focus on the good in others, to compliment their charms, with a heaping dose of “being a good Christian.”
A lot of women are socialized in this manner and it does make you easy prey to certain types. Years ago, I read a study of crime victims, including rape victims, that said most victims have the “victim walk”–eyes averted, head down, contracted posture, meandering gait. This was actually very helpful to me because I tended to slump in order to avoid harassers noticing my breasts. Counter-intuitively, standing straight and tall actually decreased the harassment because I looked less like someone who wouldn’t react loudly and negatively to “Nice tits, baby!” and more like someone who’d get pissed.
@M3 #792
Very sensible strategy. Good luck when you re-enter the dating world.
Years ago, I read a study of crime victims, including rape victims, that said most victims have the “victim walk”–eyes averted, head down, contracted posture, meandering gait.
Yeah most people and parents concentrate on protecting their pretty kids, predators like in the wild focus on the kids that no one will miss or that look to scared to talk if something happens or too weak to fight. I was often complimented on my “fast walk” some of my friends told me that it looked like I was running late to meet someone that could be around the corner so that surely protected me from harassment and I guess some robbery, of course I was still robbed twice at gun point but according to them it could had been worse.
@Bastiat
Wisdom. “High culture” dating always struck me as artificial, which is a big part of why I avoid it. Then again, I don’t enjoy “high culture” type stuff much to begin with.
@Wudang
+1
Jackie 799
Aww thanks luv, you can pray away. I’m not religious and do not believe, but if you feel it will either do something good or at least make you feel better, then more power to you.
There will be no repenting. I have no more hate for my exwife. I won’t go through with the divorce but only for financial reasons. I have no intention of remarrying and i assume she doesn’t either, consider the one dream she had was the one she so easily walked away from. But if she decided to try again, onus would be on her to pay the lawyer for our divorce.
But we have moved on. And i could personally never trust her enough to attempt to reconcile and rework it. I wish it were different but… damage done.
J 804
Thanks. I’ll need all the luck i can get!
predators like in the wild focus on the kids that no one will miss or that look to scared to talk if something happens or too weak to fight.
Yep! Just like predators.
I was often complimented on my “fast walk”
A fast walk looks purposeful; people don’t mess with people who look like they know what’s up.
I’ll need all the luck i can get!
Maybe not. It sounds like you have the right attitude–not angry, but not supplicating. That is attractive in and off itself as well as being a healthy attitude for you.
Why not just get separate checks?
I dunno, it just seems like trying to figure out who’s turn it is to pay or who should pay just makes the thing needlessly complicated and prone to drama.
“I pay for my stuff, you pay for yours” just strikes me a simple, easy, and levelheaded way to approach it as independent adults.
—
As far as dating goes, I think it’s absolutely reasonable to expect both sides to put in some kind of investment if they want things to develop. But that investment can come in many forms. Time investment, emotional investment, commitment investment, etc.
For either side to have the expectation that it must a include financial investment… well that just strikes me as shallow and disrespectful. Definitely not the kind of person with whom I’d have any interest in having a committed relationship.
@ Jackie 798 and any other Jane Austen lovers
I rarely comment but I love Sense & Sensibility. So we see you love Brandon and despise Willoughby. What do you think of Edward Ferrars and the two sisters? Do you relate to either of the sisters? Earlier in life I related a lot to a mix of Brandon and Edward Ferrars. Being raised religiously, taught to be nice to everyone and turn the other cheek, and as a hopeless romantic I remember wondering why all the girls loved the Willoughbys of the world (even at church) and not the Brandons. haha That was before I learned more about human nature. I remember the charismatic and good-looking Willoughby sweeping Marianne off her feet while the loyal but intense, older and less charming Brandon was ignored. I think Rickmann was a great Brandon: very earnest, slightly obsessive, and subdued.
S&S was my gateway drug into the world of Jane Austen. My mom gave it to me and…it sat by the tv for 2 years until some girls came over and insisted that we watch it until my friend and I gave in. But, I loved it! I loved the Jennings always laughing and teasing about the mysterious Mr F. I loved the difference between the hopeless romantic, Marianne, and her practical, stoic sister, Elinor. I loved Mr Palmer (now Dr. House) and felt sorry for him valuing position and money so much that he married Mrs Jenning’s daughter!
I think the experience of Marianne is very archetypal for many young women where they do have that one seemingly perfect guy who turns out to be a cad, and learn from it, and end up with a Brandon. But it’s interesting to see the kind of love or affection she had for Brandon, it was a calmer and less tempestuous love. One female friend remarked, “Why can’t more men have the charisma of Willoughby and the character of Brandon?”
I also love how Edward Ferrars is so awkward in the scene in the stables where it seems like he’s about to profess his love but then talks about his education, and that rigid collar is almost symbolic of how hen-pecked and dominated he is by his sister, his mother and his foolish engagement to Lucy Steele. And Lucy is quite the gold-digger, switching to Robert as soon as he inherits the fortune!
Overall, I love the variety of Jane Austen characters and the insight they provide into relationships, cads (Willoughby, Wickham), hypergamy (Elizabeth with Mr Darcy anyone? He is so out of her league and even lets her know it.), practical settling (Charlotte with Mr. Collins), and even more realistic matches of equals (Emma and Mr. Knightly).
@ Susan
I think a post on Jane Austen characters, focused on who to seek and who to avoid would be really fun and informative.
@813 I must say that in the Keira Knightley Pride & Prejudice that it’s not so unrealistic for Mr Darcy to fall in love with Elizabeth since she is so beautiful, but in the book and other versions of the movie Elizabeth isn’t as pretty so it seems like more of a stretch. I am fascinated as to why P&P is so loved by so many women. I think that part of it is the conflict of Darcy judging her to not be pretty enough to tempt him and being overheard by Lizzie and causing her to think of him as irredeemably arrogant, only to eventually find out he’s got a heart of gold, and, that he falls in love with her mostly for her outspoken personality.
I think this subconsciously speaks to women’s desire for that wonderful man who is out of her league but that falls hopelessly in love with her, and that her love for him is either denied or non-existent at first, due to hurt feelings, conflict, and drama but then comes into being or is gradually realized that it was always there as she sees what the servants and his sister say about him, how he acts to her, like the twilight before dawn, and finally in full force as the revelation of Darcy paying for Wickham to marry Lydia shines upon her like the risen sun.
I think a post on Jane Austen characters, focused on who to seek and who to avoid would be really fun and informative.
Is very nice to have a male perspective on Austen.
. I think some women are like Marianne but in her case she though Willogby was a gentleman and he indeed was not into it for pump and dump, but he wouldn’t be able to live poor with her and he was banging another woman on the side while he was courting her, IMO Marianne dogded a bullet as heartbroken she was about the whole deal finding out about Willogby’s illegitimate son after marriage might had actually killed her for good. Those women what want both the Brandon and the Willogby are not going to try and meet the Brandon first to see if they can find the charisma in him, that is a huge part of their problem IMO. I of course will always love Brandon and Edward (both of them 
) and of course Darcy. Not sure if I agree that Lizzy was into him do to hypergamy only if that would had been the case she would had accepted the marriage proposal right away, she needed to see good character and other qualities before she fell for him and accepted, YMMV in this one.
Not to trump my own horn but I did a post on Charlotte and the sisters in my blog: check it out http://4stargazer.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/hello-world/
No that Susan wouldn’t do a better job
Hi Anacaona, I will go read your blog.
Regarding Willoughby, he really did love Marianne and wasn’t sleeping with Beth (Brandon’s ward) anymore by the time he met Marianne. But, he was caddish in his behaviour to Beth and valued money more than his love for Marianne. It’s an interesting question whether Marianne would have stayed with W. once she learned of the pregnancy. I think she was so in love with him that she would have but it would have been a huge blow as well.
As for Lizzie, I don’t think she was consciously being hypergamous. And I’m basing most of my recollection on the 2005 movie since that is freshest in my head. At least in the movie she was both amused but also somewhat attracted to him and wanted to dance with him when they first met and was quite hurt both when he rejected to dance with her and when she overheard him saying she was “tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me.” If those slights wouldn’t have happened I think she would have been into him strongly right away.
I’m curious what your thoughts are on why P&P is so popular. What does it touch in women to make them love it so much? I think it is in part that subconscious hypergamy, the fairy tale of the out-of-her league man of high status and good character loving her mostly for who she is and less for what she looks like. His insults (or speaking the plain truth about her level of beauty and the impropriety of her family) and the subsequent hour of the movie where he is seen as horrible in her eyes only serve to make the final fall into love more dramatic and satisfying to the women watching the movie and imagining their own fantasies.
I’m giving my opinion and would like to know yours.
As for Lizzie, I don’t think she was consciously being hypergamous. And I’m basing most of my recollection on the 2005 movie since that is freshest in my head. At least in the movie she was both amused but also somewhat attracted to him and wanted to dance with him when they first met and was quite hurt both when he rejected to dance with her and when she overheard him saying she was “tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me.” If those slights wouldn’t have happened I think she would have been into him strongly right away.
The movie was good but it has their issues, since it was short they make it look like they were attracted to each other from the very beginning but in the books and in the BBC version it was not like that at all. They take time to get to know and fall for each other and Darcy was mostly being petulant about her not being pretty enough in second look he found her attractive and I think he was also intrigued by her not putting up with his crap when all the other women did (heh is like he was a woman on that aspect despising his orbiter Miss Bangley) and Lizzy took a long time to see Darcy as a human and understand why he would get in the way of Mr Bingley affection for her sister. It was really an entirely different dynamic, I do like the movie (I own it as a mater of fact) but I had read the books enough time to know that they cut a lot out due to time.
I’m curious what your thoughts are on why P&P is so popular. What does it touch in women to make them love it so much? I think it is in part that subconscious hypergamy, the fairy tale of the out-of-her league man of high status and good character loving her mostly for who she is and less for what she looks like. His insults (or speaking the plain truth about her level of beauty and the impropriety of her family) and the subsequent hour of the movie where he is seen as horrible in her eyes only serve to make the final fall into love more dramatic and satisfying to the women watching the movie and imagining their own fantasies.
I think is mostly about hope. Hoping that that a man is more than he lead on and that you get him to open up and the fantasy that you are special enough to warm his cold heart. But then I think some women do see it as marrying the rich prince and others might see it as winning among other women that are prettier (her sister gets a very good man but not as good as herself) and more submissive (Miss Bingley) and a lot sluttier and crazier (Lydia) so dunno I always say that reading is like sex is different for everybody, so maybe that is why is so popular it has enough for every kind of woman, YMMV.
Another interesting thing is Darcy is socially awkward and has little charisma. He is able to warm up a bit after he feels comfortable around someone, especially around his sister.
Here’s a question, both about P&P (and related to a lot of romance fiction). Would Lizzie fall in love with Darcy if he were the exact same person except that he were a low-wealth and low-status butcher or furniture maker? And would women love P&P? Or does the story vitally depend on him being rich? My opinion is that Lizzie might have been able to fall in love with such a man but that the story wouldn’t be very popular with women.
I love Pride and Prejudice, but I’m kind of disgusted that this is the second most highlighted Kindle ( https://kindle.amazon.com/most_popular/ ):
“It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.”
I feel like most of the girls highlighting this are missing the sarcasm.
@818 Emily
I wonder if it’s an equally universally acknowledged truth that that would-be wife is in want of a single man in possession of a good fortune? lol
And reading your comment brought to mind visions of greedy and ravenous hamsters dancing in their heads, waiting to devour the “feasts” provided by the “good fortune”.
And, NAWALT.
As if the girls highlighting that are thinking that the fortune exists and is lonely, just waiting for them to arrive and bring meaning and purpose to its existence.
And I’m aware that many women are able to earn their own fortune today…
“As if the girls highlighting that are thinking that the fortune exists and is lonely, just waiting for them to arrive and bring meaning and purpose to its existence.”
Haha. That really made laugh. That has got to be the best hamsterization of gold digging one can come up with.
@Susan #760
“If the guys here don’t already know this, I want to make it clear that bringing flowers to a date is akin to dating suicide. That is a totally supplicating gesture. Only do it if you plan to arrive in a horse-drawn carriage.”
That’s you off of Interflora’s xmas card list, perhaps best if you steer clear of Central Park’s carriage ranks after dark too.
Ha ha ha ha..
I like you Paul, I really do. You are a funny (and very smart) guy.
You make me smile.
“(Don’t tell Just1X, but I hope he gets the British equivalent, too )
Hehe. I’m sure he’ll see the comment soon enough and come back with some dry whit and stiff upper lip remark.”
Well I appreciate both sentiments – cheers. They haven’t made optimism illegal yet, but beware the thin line between it and delusion.
(does that fit the description?)
(There is a nice community here.)
Oh, and happy 4th of July.
I maybe be English, but I wouldn’t make assumptions on which side I might have been on in ’76. I’ve been watching the series ‘John Adams’, if only we had politicians of conscience like that around now. If they even exist, they sure aren’t running things…
I wondered this too, but I think she’s a better writer than Plain Jane. I also think Lm is deliberately mimicking Obsidian’s writing style for a laugh.
As much as I long for some of the courtship rituals I grew up with, I very much want guys to understand what the turnoffs are. Maybe I should write a post on this – the gestures that will get you put into the Nice Guy no tingles box.
@Wudang
I don’t doubt that you see this, but I find it puzzling from a female POV. What is the value of attention from a man you don’t find attractive?
In my experience, the beta orbiter thing generally does not include going on any dates or the guy paying for anything. The couple is platonic BFFs, they hang out and do stuff together but kissing him would never even occur to the girl, while it’s all the guy can think about. She likes having a fun, loyal friend, but doesn’t see him as a source of sexual attention, and doesn’t use her feminine wiles to attract him, because attracting him is the last thing she wants to do.
Should I be offended that I’ve never been approached or harassed for my number, even in my youth?
@Susan #830
You could just see that as a sign that standards of social behaviour have dropped in recent years…HTH
(I’m assuming that there was humour implied in your statement)
The women I know who have tried online dating have preferred short, sweet first dates for precisely this reason. One drink after work, coffee on a Sunday afternoon, etc. They generally offer to share the check, the guy generally insists on paying.
If the date is going really well, they can have another drink, head out and walk around, etc.
I do not know a single woman in the 22-26 range who has had an expensive dinner on an early date. Even if the guy is paying, the risk of getting “stuck” for the evening is too great.
In fact, a lot of guys who do online dating will go on one or two “dates,” then transition back to meeting up and hanging out in groups, etc. They didn’t date in college and they’d rather not do it now. There are exceptions, and I’m sure this changes as guys age and mature. But I do think that hookup culture is definitely permeating the post-college scene.
@Susan #827
“mimicking Obsidian’s writing style for a laugh”
IDK, lm just has a bitchy edge to what she writes. She also spouts some of the familiar feminist tropes (though I haven’t seen the 77c / $ one yet).
Obs, when he avoids the personal stabs, makes some very clear points. He’d make a pretty effective lawyer IMO, perhaps he does work in the law?
Foul? That’s sexual economics. If you’re right, no one can be held accountable, and nothing will change it. In my observation, couples nearly always have compatible SMVs.
@Jackie
Yes, Jane Austen knew what was up! There are many such portrayals in her novels. In P&P, she offers:
Bingley: pure beta, gets the most beautiful girl
Wickham: cad
Darcy: Alpha who needs beta-izing, which Elizabeth Bennet inspires. (His deliberate loss of pride amounted to his pulling way back on the dominance.)
Mr. Collins: Omega
Then in Persuasion, she offers Captain Wentworth, an alpha with the worst case of oneitis I’ve ever seen.
Interestingly, Jane Austen is considered the patron saint of chick lit, but she has many male fans as well. Her writing is considered more realistic than female fantasy.
@HanSolo
Good to see you! I love your analysis of Austen characters – and I agree, a post would be fun. In fact, I hope some PhD student somewhere is writing their dissertation on Austen and Game. Wouldn’t that be awesome?
Austen is, IMO, the only female writer and perhaps the only novelist of either sex who ranks with the very greatest philosophers.
@Just1X
Obsidian makes many good points – he is brilliant and it is no fun to oppose him!
@Susan
as a techie (and a male) I appreciate his logical arguments, but it does take the fun level down a bit…YMMV (but I doubt it).
I’m afraid that there’s little that I can bring to a discussion of the literature of the Austens. I’d rather read 50 shades than read about the internal dramas of bimboids whose greatest problem was finding a man rich enough to marry (while real people, male and female, had shitty, grim and short lives). But then (for clarity) I’d rather gargle battery acid after having my tonsils removed by a blunt scythe than read 50 shades. (I suspect lm would be happy to perform the surgery).
I suspect that this attitude to literature probably goes a long way to explain my failing to get a qualification in eng.lit. at age 16. Love reading, but not chick-lit…or poetry….or Shakespeare
“the person you’re considering as a sexual partner is not troubled by ethical considerations or about your well-being”
A commitment-minded man must be wary of the affect on a woman who “expressed” with numbers of always-willing men, nearly all of whom were inconsiderate of her well-being by virtue of the circumstances she orchestrated.
And make sure to highlight those things that are the exact opposite of what (a feminized) polite society and popular culture taught them.
It is important to highlight that while girls may have been sold a bill of goods (i.e. anything a man can do, a woman can do …., you can have it all, etc.), young men were fed a whole heap of feminized bullshit.
FWIW, I still do flowers. The most effective use seems to be to have a reasonably impressive arrangement sent to her work (randomly), where she can use it to make her frenemy female colleagues feel badly about themselves. It also creates a territorial mark for me in her workplace, almost as if I had come in wearing furs and urinated in a circle around her desk.
Just because she is not tingling for the guy, does not mean that she is not aware of his possible attractiveness.
For instance, say you have
an attention whorea girl who has 10 guys eyeing her up. She, in her heart of hearts, only tingles for 2 of them. But, she can recognize that at least 5 of them are of fairly good value.One of those unlucky 3 asks her out. Her frontal lobe tells her, “Why not? He is attractive and nice. And, you could definitely use a break from your stressful week.” Her hind brain tells her, “Attention. Attention. All of your girlfriends will know that Mark and John pursued you before you dated Alex.”
This is not extremely realistic, but it give you an idea as to why some girls go on dates with attractive guys that they are not currently tingling for. And, also, what if he turns out to be really fun and charming, and, “uh, oh, I am starting to tingle”.
I asked my first girlfriend in college if she liked roses for Valentines ( some girls prefer different flowers). She said, “Yes, but send them to my work, that way all the other girls can see and get jealous.”
@ms jackie:
Dont sweat m3 or just1x; theyll both be just fine. Thats that they mde sarging for.
@ms j:
You know im laughing my butt off at this notion that a woman can reliably defend herself from an attacker with a fistful of keys; it only tells me that such a view comes from someone who hasnt the slightest idea of what it actually means to be in a toedown with a guy out in the real.
The average guy can do some damage to a woman, all the moreso if he has any form of specialized martial arts training. On top of that it is very possible to SHOOT a man and he still come at you because he hasnt bled out yet and hes got adrenaline coursing through him. Watch “brooklyns finest” starring among others richard gere to get my point.
On top of that the only thing a woman would wind up doing by scratching a guys face with some keys is piss him off and she winds up on a coroners slab. People shouldnt talk about fights in realtime with real people when its clear they dont know what theyre talking about.
Stick to blubbering about you “dh”; advice like yours will only get a woman killed.
Im deadly serious.
Smh…
O.
part of the reason I married my wife was that she doens’t care about jewelry and hates flowers.
Re: Flowers
I agree with what Susan said. No flowers until she’s earned them.
But FWIW, I LOVE getting flowers from my bf. I like to dry them out once they start wilting so I can keep them for months.
First date flowers probably aren’t a good strategy, but random relationship flowers are the best!
Escoffier, why would a hatred of flowers attract you more to a girl?
Just to clarify: I don’t require flowers. But they’re nice to get.
1) allergies; 2) relieves me of the obligation of buying them all the time.
@ramble:
The problem with what youre talking about is that women already know from the rip that most of the guys who approach them dont make them tingle. But they dont get out much and agree to go out with these guys. No matter what anyone says a guy spending his cash is thinking that somethings there when nine times outta ten its not. And women simply will not admit this because if they do they wont get out at all. It is entirely possible for a woman to go months even years without a “proper date”; which brings me to another point…
There are indeed women will be royally pissed off if you meet them for coffee instead of the big rollout. Oftentimes this are women who have grown up on jane austen type stuff, who expects to be swept off her feet by her own personal prince charming. Like i said, cafe date theory screens them out quick-see, ive actually experienced the chicas who try to “upgrade the date” on me-and when they do i bang on them. I dont haggle with them try to renegoiate none of that; i bang on em and that is that. Next!
Cafe date theory fellas. Try it with your friends!
O.
you can’t blame Jane Austen for the feet-sweeping fantasy.
In the black community it is not at all unusual to encounter women who demand the “proper date” upfront even when they know they aint really feeling you like that. In fact, it isnt at all unusual for a sista to demand other gifts while youre out on your first date!
The following true story from my own life should suffice.
After i got my first car-a 1975 buick electra 225-what the oldheads called a “deuce and a quarter”-i decided to christen her right by taking out a gal for the first time in it. Back then i had no formal knowledge of game but i was very game-sensitive if you know what i mean; it was those instincts that saved my skin many times in those days-which was years before i even formulated cafe date theory.
So, i took out this beyonce-looking chica out for a date. Back then i didnt know better, and our destination was to olive garden, then friendlys for dessert and after that maybe a movie-toss in the cost for a full tank on a whip that has a 455 cubic inch v8 engine, and the whole thing would set me back the better part of a c-note easily. Thank god the gal in question wasnt smart enough to keep her mouth shut.
Thats because barely ten minutes after i picked her up she was talking about she needed her hair done and needed her nails done and needed a new dress etc et al. I stayed silent just listening to her talk for about five minutes until i had heard enough.
As soon as i was able, i calmly pulled the car over, put it park and turned it off. I then leaned on the big armrest and said the following:
“sounds like you “need” a lot of things. Look, ill tell you what: you suck my d*ck and ill pay you.”
She was suddenly shocked; ms mouth almighty now was mum. “what?” she asked.
I kept calm and continued: “yea. I mean, we can help each other here-you suck my d*ck and i give you the money you “need” to get your hair done, your nails done and your new dress. I figure that way, we can skip over the whole date thing-ill just give you the money for all that. But you gotta suck my d*ck like vanessa del rio though; in fact if you do a good job ill pay a bit extra. And you dont have to worry about my telling anybody; i dont get down like that. No one needs to know. Itll be our secret.”
I smiled, then slid the benchstyle front seat back long enough for me to recline and started undoing my belt buckle, when she totally lost it:
“i want to go home!”
O: ok (popped electronic lock)-youre free to go.
“youre not going to drive me back home?”
O: youre not going to suck my d*ck?
She got out and saw herself home.
And i learned a very important, powerful and profound lesson.
Along with saving a hard earned c-note…
O.
@Obs
I guess you got the memo on romance being dead.
I do agree with the cafe date idea though. Take the profit motive out of it, see if she’s still interested
Ramble, re: flowers at work. My experience runs a close parallel with your own.
Scenario: **woman receives wonderful arrangement of roses at her desk at work**
What she tells the other girls: “Oh, I wish he wouldn’t do this…these are just so flashy—I’m embarrassed!…I keep telling him not to send roses, but he’s incorrigible.”
What she really means (translation): “Yes, yes, you goddamn bitches…take that…go pout at your desks and start questioning yourselves.”
@J1X:
“@Obs
I guess you got the memo on romance being dead.”
O: No, I wouldn’t say that romance is *dead*; but it IS on life-support these days…
“I do agree with the cafe date idea though. Take the profit motive out of it, see if she’s still interested”
O: Then by all means, stay tuned! Got something really cool I think you’ll like to see coming up…
O.
Haha.
Well, in the spirit of celebrating America, and Americans, and American Women, my next serious girlfriend had no interest in any of that stuff.
She loved romantic gestures, but genuinely preferred that they be private. She also told me that if I ever buy her jewelry, that she wanted Cubic Zirconium, and she was not kidding.
She was terrified that if she had an actual diamond (or some expensive thing), that she would lose it.
@Obs
looking forward to it, might not catch it till tomorrow (in the UK and the SUN IS SHINING this evening(!), rained all frigging day)
@Tom #605:
“seriously?”
O: You don’t see me smiling do you?
“I get to fuck you because I bought you a nice dinner?..”
O: Works for me…
“What fucking world do you live in dude.”
O: The same one where guys ain’t cool with wifeing up Women who ape Debbie Does Dallas…
“Sorry I`m with Susan here.”
O: Given her position(s) on this issue, that is truly unfortunate – but hardly surprising…
“All youve done is reduce women to prostitutes. Maybe you should give them a sign that reads,”will fuck for food”…..lol”
O: Actually, *both Women and Men* have done this; I quote:
“Female sexuality, from a male perspective, is an extraordinarily valuable reproductive resource. From a female perspective, this resource is extremely FUNGIBLE (Obsidian’s emphasis), meaning that it can be changed or converted into other resources.”
- pp. 192, Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of The Mind, Prof. David Buss
Yes, I think that sounds about right…
O.
@Ms. Walsh #607:
“I’ll be interested to hear what kind of response you get. My guess is that girls who are more traditional in their orientation – regarding both dating and sex – will be turned off. Girls who are more oriented towards short-term encounters might not mind, IDK. There are plenty of guys who recommend not spending a penny on a woman until after she’s given you sex. By definition, that’s a woman with no interest whatsoever in filtering guys for intentions.”
O: I don’t know about that, Ms. Walsh; for one thing, we know that Women’s sexuality is highly variable, depending heavily on context – and – that it is not at all unsual for the same Woman to engage in both longterm and short term mating strategies. Buss talks about this at considerable length in both the books that have been referenced by me here, as well as his most recent work, Why Women Have Sex. The notion or idea of “the good girl” is a quaint trope; as any guy with a modicum of success with Women will tell you, the freakiest gals out there are the ones getting their praise on on Sunday morning…I’m a witness.
“Buss addresses this, saying that women evolved strategies to guard against deception. When they are seeking a relationship, they impose courtship costs be requiring time, energy and resources before consenting to sex. If a woman fails to do so, she is signaling her availability for no-strings mating. I don’t think it has to be about the dollars – but the act of asking her to split the check most definitely says to a woman, “I am avoiding giving you the impression I am available for a relationship.””
O: That’s certainly one way such a tactic could be viewed by the Woman (and if Tom is indication, by at least some Men); but it doesn’t necessarily mean that on the part of the Male in our time; as has been clearly explained and demonstrated, it could very well be a measure to protect said Man from being took out there on the open mating market. No matter how much you and others here (I’m thinking of Ms. LM and the irony of her positions, since she is every bit in denial on this score as she asserts we Men are when it comes to things like Street Harassment), Bilkers are indeed very real – no matter what their “reason” or “intent” for doing so. Men have every right on God’s Green Earth to protect themselves from such fraudulent practices and tactics.
The Obsidian
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dating Risk Management Specialist
@ Susan:
deti: That confidence and dominance are attractive, not violent or predatory or regressive
Susan: Dominance often is predatory and violent. That’s why women prefer prestige to dominance. The most dominant males in society are often abusive, violent, and criminal.
Wait wait wait. Come on, Susan. I know you know what I was talking about. Dominance is male frame-setting, the man asserting the leadership role in the relationship or the “get to know you” dance. I know you are keenly familiar with this concept. Since when did dominance become a bad thing around here?
Nobody here, including the men, advocates “dominance” as thug/criminal/smack-the-ho-around. You know that. We all know that. Did I miss something?
And since when did women express a preference for “prestige” over “dominance”? This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone say that “prestige” is sexier than “dominance.” I have “prestige”, but I didn’t have “dominance” in my marriage, which is one of the things that led to my marital difficulties which finally came to a head a little over a year ago. I had to learn dominance in addition to my “prestige” in the form of my bankroll, my superior education, my occupation and my social status (none of which, by the way, was successful in keeping a good marriage without dominance).
My wife did not find financial security or social status sexy. Hell, if she wants money or status, she can get that on her own. You’ve said that yourself — women no longer need men for money or status. She finds dominance — leadership, frame-setting, and making decisions and sticking to them — sexy, though. And it’s all done without predation or violence or any kind of abuse.
I’m not getting where you’re coming from with this new definition of “dominance” as often predatory, violent, abusive, prone to criminal behavior, and thuggishness. I don’t buy that. Not at all.
@Esco #614:
“Susan, given the reported prevalence of mercernary female behavior regarding dating (using “dating” merely as a means to cadge free drinks and meals), what else would you suggest we do?”
O: Ms. Walsh really doesn’t care what we do-she’s made that clear quite a number of times throughout our debate (her and I). It isn’t her problem, is her position. *shrugs*
“Also, given my age, any women who are single and even within the age/2+7 rule, and within my general socio-economic circle, are likely going to have six figure incomes. Now, why should it be on me to subsidize their lives? Traditional dating made sense in a traditional society. Does it still?”
O: Bingo!-give that Man a fine Cuban cigar. Women want to live in a 21st century world, and also want to be “courted” per Jane Austen era times. This is why Women, who are now documented to make MORE money than their counterparts in many American cities, get all huffy about the matter. Simple pragmatism would say that they ante up given all the trouble Men overall have been experiencing since the Mancession, but guess what? They don’t, they won’t. Women talk a mean game about “paltry sums” and being “cheap”, but they know the deal – they ain’t trying to ante up anything if they don’t have to. Not that I have a problem with any of that – a Woman has the right to spend or not spend her loot any way she darn well pleases.
The problem I have is when they try to fake the funk with a nasty dunk.
“This is before we get to the whole game/DLV issue. You assum that wanting to split the check is a DLV but according to gamers guys who automatically pay are at risk of being sized up as chumps. In other words, many men with experience in this arena say that paying is itself a DLV. I know that you see it otherwise, but do women who are half your age?”
O: C’mon Esco – to ask the question is to answer it – and Ms. Walsh is included in this too, since she’s gone on record about these things. It isn’t an “age” thing, IT’S A FEMALE THING.
Not only that, you once again have put a spotlight on how Women yet again, run the “heads I win, tails you lose” game on those poor schmucks out there; if he tries to split the bill (unless doing so is *her idea* of course), then he loses; and if he goes all-in right from the rip, he loses. Cafe Date Theory to the rescue, yet again…
“Two stories: 1) I heard from a co-worker about a women she knew who divorced her husband. Why? Because even though they both worked, she expected him to pay the rent and other basic expenses entirely out of his salary. It was his “duty” as a husband. He wanted them to split it. She wouldn’t and she left him over it.”
O: He’s better off without the leech. There, I said it.
“2) I asked to lunch a woman I work with sometimes. When the bill came, I said we should split it. She was stunned and urged me to pay it and expense it. I demurred, saying that while we were collegues, the lunch had been social not business. She paid her half but we no longer speak except when necessitated by work.”
O: Good; you probably saved yourself a sexual harassment suit…
O.
I maybe be English, but I wouldn’t make assumptions on which side I might have been on in ’76. I’ve been watching the series ‘John Adams’, if only we had politicians of conscience like that around now. If they even exist, they sure aren’t running things…
Heh my father in love is British and he calls 4th f July “the bloody day we lost the colony” but he lives here so he is mostly joking around, keeping some British pride for the lolz.
Should I be offended that I’ve never been approached or harassed for my number, even in my youth?
Nope is a matter of place and posture. I’m sure you looked like the type that will fight back,yell or embarrass the guy or too sweet to get away with it and not taking a huge hit on their value. Remember you need to look like a victim or like someone that other people will label as approachable so any guy going out of it will look like a maniac. Bitches and Victims are the ones that get this, IME. And I most clarify I could totally look like a bitch before my transformation into feminine but fast walker.
But FWIW, I LOVE getting flowers from my bf. I like to dry them out once they start wilting so I can keep them for months.
I have the first rose my husband gave me dried up in my Twilight movie guide.
I do love flowers and I would had loved to get some at work (I’m a woman after all) but I also got the “Hmmm this guy is up to no good” when one of my coworkers got flowers too early on the relationship this was a classic move of the “Beta game” a woman that gets flowers after a few dates gets all “he loves me!” puts out getting caught in the romance and fantasy of the moment and usually gets forgotten right away, of course this is in my country so is a different dynamic, YMMV.
You mean all your sexual harassment episodes in the office didn’t count? ; )
The stories you and J shared reminded me of some of my own. One time I gave my number to a guy who I thought was alright (I was so excited to give out my number, too! Ah, naivete). I ended up getting a barrage of texts — seriously, like one per minute — that lasted for days, even until 2 am. It was psychological torture, I was flinching every time the phone vibrated. I was driven to near-tears and looked into having that number blocked and the costs of getting a new phone number. Thankfully, it dwindled to an ebb eventually, and after I went abroad he completely left me alone (because my number was unreachable). It was a terrifying experience, after that I resolved to be *very* discerning about who received my number. I won’t even give it out to the cashier whenever I go shopping!
J’s story reminded me of another time that recently occurred a few months ago. I was walking home and suddenly became aware I was being followed. Fortunately, I lived near a police station, so a quick stop by to “check” my shoes made the guy disappear.
… schadenfreude …
@Ms. LM #’s 589-591:
“@Obsidian –
This is just ludicrous.”
O: And, a happy 4th of July to you, too!
“I’ve seen you posting this ridiculousness all over the blogosphere”
O: More than a billion served…
“and – never mind the mess it makes of male-female relations;”
O: You flatter me!
“I’m astounded no one has called you on it just on grounds of lack of logic.”
O: That’s because my logic is always on-point.
“You speak of the injustice, oh woe!”
O: “Oh, woe”, indeed! Woe to the dupe who gets fleeced! Woe to the AFC who gets took! Woe to the poor shmuck who gets “got”! I pity dem fools…
“to which a man is allegedly subjected”
O: There is nothing “alleged”; I’ve offered actual sources that are well documented. You have yet to refute them, and that’s because YOU. CAN’T.
“when he pays some paltry sum”
O: If it’s such a “paltry sum”, THEN WHY DON’T THE LADIES PAY FOR IT? After all, like you said, it’s such a “paltry sum” – right?
“for a date but doesn’t “get sex”.”
O: He is paying for the chance at it, if nothing else. Problem is, that most Women know going in that the poor dupe has ZERO chance of tapping that.
“You speak of these things like they’re equivalent.
They’re not.”
O: You need to read pp. 192 of Buss’ Evolutionary Psychology. You are gravely mistaken, my dear.
“Not only do women sustain a greater social risk in the relinquishment of sex; they also risk more physically.”
O: So? What does either have to do with the price of rice? Who is to know that said Woman had sex to begin with? Are you suggesting that said Woman was going to broadcast it? Or are you suggesting that the guy would?
How about if they’re married and the Woman announces to all that would listen that she sexes her husband; does she take a hit socially by doing so? Please explain? I need clarification.
As for the “greater risk physically” that a Woman takes in having sex – please explain how this is so? If you mean “greater risk phsyically” in terms of reproducing and pregnancy, I am sure you are well aware that this is a concern that has already been resolved. So I am having trouble understanding where you’re coming from here. Again, please explain?
Moreover, you have not refuted my point about Women who use Men for gifts, drinks and meals and then absconding sexually. Do you affirm or deny that such a phenomenon exists? That would be a yes or no question, dear.
“@Jimmy Henricks – Because his curiosity is about her previous sexual history and its basis is only his potential wounded pride.”
O: That’s certainly one possibility; but it could also be possible that he is desrious of ascertaining her sexual health. For example, in the Black community it is well known that Black Women have a higher rate of STDs across the board than Women of other groups. So, since I date primarily Black Women, and since I am very concerned about the prospect of being infected with a STD by a Sista, if I inquire about her sexual past, such a concern could not be legitimate, and instead I am doing so only because of my hurt pride? Please explain?
“Her “curiosity” — and it is more of a need to know — is about his present partners and concerns her sexual health.”
O: I wouldn’t disagree; but you somehow dismiss the possibility out of hand that she could be just as jealous/insecure as the Man – which has been documented, again, read your Buss.
Your logic leaves quite a bit to be desired, my darling.
“@Mireille – I believe that too.
It’s horse hockey that “men want women to be direct” when we’re rejecting them when we’re not interested. You say “Sorry, not interested” or “Sorry, you’re not my type” very directly to a man — especially a “Men want women to be direct” kind of man — and they don’t get angry. They RAGE.”
O: Whether this is true or not, it does not take away the fact that Women do indeed LIE in order to avoid unpleasant outcomes to their rebuffing an unwanted suitor. My point, therefore, stands.
Holla back – if you can…
O.
O: He’s better off without the leech. There, I said it.
yep, there should be no buffet approach to feminism allowed. I am absolutely, 100%, fine with equality. But that’s equality in sentencing, duties, rights and responsibilties. No more double standards, best person gets the job. Equal pay for equal work. No closing down women’s prisons (proposed in the UK!). No more bullshit.
@Deti #861:
The fundamental flaw in Ms. Walsh’s thinking is that we all have clear and present evidence of the kinds of “dominant men” she speaks of not having any trouble snapping up sexual partners; moreover, they aren’t always the stereotypical hoodrats that so many ladies try to assert. Every Man reading this knows that an alpha badass type can and will get the “good girl”. We’ve all seen it far too many times to deny it.
Moreover, the whole “prestige” thing is a heck of a lot harder to actually get for most Men than it is to “Go Thug”. For one thing, you need TIME – most Men don’t reach “prestige status” until their latter 30s at minimum, so right off the bat that leaves the vast majority of under 30 guys in the reproductive dust. Ms. Walsh is looking at this thing through a keyhole, instead of through a door. Which is why my presence in these discussions is key, because there is more to America than a Beantown Superzip.
O.
@Ms. Walsh:
“I wondered this too, but I think she’s a better writer than Plain Jane. I also think Lm is deliberately mimicking Obsidian’s writing style for a laugh.”
O: Well, you know what they say – imitation – even a pastiche of one – is the highest form of flattery…
“I don’t doubt that you see this, but I find it puzzling from a female POV. What is the value of attention from a man you don’t find attractive?”
O: You gotta be kidding me, Ms. Walsh. You honestly don’t know this? Buss talks about this extensively in both his books; among other things, Women get *valuable information about Men* from having male friends, SO THEY CAN KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MEN THEY ACTUALLY WANT. These orbiters are little more than unpaid Manformation Consultants. Bunk that, PAY ME if you want to know about Men but you’re not feeling me sexually. I am more than willing to consult you on these matters, ladies. Please contact me for premium rates.
“In my experience, the beta orbiter thing generally does not include going on any dates or the guy paying for anything. The couple is platonic BFFs, they hang out and do stuff together but kissing him would never even occur to the girl, while it’s all the guy can think about. She likes having a fun, loyal friend, but doesn’t see him as a source of sexual attention, and doesn’t use her feminine wiles to attract him, because attracting him is the last thing she wants to do.”
O: See above. Moreover, what you describe is hardly the only permutation of the “LJBF” phenomon; please see my comment #540 for more on how Women can and will try to whipout the whole “friends” BS to a guy. LOTS OF WOMEN like the idea of having their desirability confirmed by the attentions of Men, Ms. Walsh, and they are not in any way above giving Men the impression that they were interested in them when in truth they were not. Again, much to the chagrin of, and contrary to, Ms. LM’s protestations, in truth the ones in denial about harsh truths out on the SMP, AND WHICH GETS ABSOLUTELY NO CULTURAL DISCUSSION AT ALL, is the whole orbiter thing. It is nothing short of insidious.
*quoting me*: “the chubby nerdy gals can at least still get to mate whereas entire swaths of guys are entirely shutout of mating altogether. I mean thats pretty foul if you ask me.”
“Foul? That’s sexual economics. If you’re right, no one can be held accountable, and nothing will change it. In my observation, couples nearly always have compatible SMVs.”
O: OK. Let’s examine this:
Ms. Walsh, do you affirm or deny, that in nature, throughout the animal kingdom and among humans, that a significant portion of Males – a higher portion of them in relation to Females – never get to mate at all? And, Ms. Walsh, do you affirm or deny that this is due at least in part to the fact that said Females deem said Males to be lacking as acceptable sexual mates? Yes or no?
Second: YES, we CAN do something about the current circumstance. It’s called legalized prostitution. Indeed, if we had an offical US Dept of Tricks and Ho’s, the Ms. Jackies and Ms. Sassys of the world wouldn’t be hectored so much – every country that has state sanctioned prostitution services and widespread availability of porn has seen incidences of sexual violence toward Women drop like a stone. Indeed, the USA is perhaps the last major Western country not to have such things, and the reason for this is in part due to the Feminist Lobby wanting to keep a kind of sexual protectionism in place; Steven Levitt and others have shown how prostitutes “lower” the price of sex for Women overall, and the Feminist Lobby is highly aware of this. For more on all this, you really should checkout a blog called The Honesy Courtesan, written by former escort Maggie McNeill. Very good reading, I tell ya.
“Obsidian makes many good points – he is brilliant and it is no fun to oppose him!”
O: *takes deep bow*
O.
@Obs, what the hell is a “Beantown Superzip”? Startpage has nothing…
Run Issue 34 1986 Oct
9 Sep 2010 … Run Issue 34 1986 Oct by CubemanPDX in Magazines/Newspapers and commodore.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37171137/Run-Issue-34-1986-Oct – View by Ixquick Proxy – Highlight
Boston, Massachusetts (MA) Zip Code Map – Locations …
Females: 3617, (51.6%). 40 houses sold in Q2 2011 for a median price of $808500. Zip code 02108 detailed profile. Zip code 02109 statistics: (Find on map) …
http://www.city-data.com/zipmaps/Boston-Massachusetts.html – View by Ixquick Proxy – Highlight
Speaking of nice guys, ‘Little shop of horrors’ has just started here on TV.
Is Seymour the ultimate Beta nice guy?
Nothing wrong with Audrey, assuming that you have the hearing range of a dog (how high is her voice?), but he sure has to chase a lot
@J1X #833:
“Obs, when he avoids the personal stabs, makes some very clear points. He’d make a pretty effective lawyer IMO, perhaps he does work in the law?”
O: Ahhh…well, let’s just say that I know my way around a courtroom, and have been known to knock back quite a few charges/cases lobbed my way.
“If you having girl problems I feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but a b*tch ain’t one
Hit me
[Verse Two]
The year is ’94 and in my trunk is raw
In my rear view mirror is the mother f*cking law
I got two choices yall pull over the car or
bounce on the double put the pedal to the floor
Now I ain’t trying to see no highway chase with jake
Plus I got a few dollars I can fight the case
So I…pull over to the side of the road
And I heard “Son do you know why I’m stopping you for?”
Cause I’m young and I’m black and my hat’s real low
Do I look like a mind reader sir, I don’t know
Am I under arrest or should I guess some mo?
“Well you was doing fifty five in a fifty four”
“License and registration and step out of the car”
“Are you carrying a weapon on you I know a lot of you are”
I ain’t stepping out of sh*t all my papers legit
“Do you mind if I look round the car a little bit?”
Well my glove compartment is locked so is the trunk and the back
And I know my rights so you gon’ need a warrant for that
“Aren’t you sharp as a tack are some type of lawyer or something?”
“Or somebody important or something?”
Nah I ain’t passed the bar but I know a little bit
Enough that you won’t illegally search my sh*t
“Well see how smart you are when the K-9′s come”
I got 99 problems but a bi*ch ain’t one
Hit me”
Jay-Z, “99 Problems”, The Black Album
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jayz/99problems.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwoM5fLITfk
Thanks, mate!
O.
Speaking of nice guys, ‘Little shop of horrors’ has just started here on TV.
Is Seymour the ultimate Beta nice guy?
Depends on the version if is the original one then no he is more like a clueless idiot if is the Rick Moranis version then YES! I love him so much I had a big crush on him and used to watch all his movies (ghostbusters, all in the family, his animated version on Gravedale High)
@Obs
I was more familiar with the ‘Hugo’ cover version of 99 problems, clearly there’s a divergence in the lyrics (or I’m going senile). Rap doesn’t ‘speak’ to me as it doesn’t describe my life experiences. Sorry that it touches yours. Fuck that sucks
@J1X #870:
I was referring to a term by Charles Murray, in his book Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577170733817181646.html
Ms. Walsh would be considered part of the White upper middle class that Murray talks about.
Any further questions, holla.
O.
@Ana
yes, Rick Moranis’ version. Just seen ‘be a dentist’, enough to make my teeth curl.
I have recently watched the extended version of Léon (aka The Professional). The extra minutes add a totally new spin to the relationship between Léon and Mathilda – I was surprised, not in a good way (how continental…). But not as surprised as the fact that Ellen Greene ‘Audrey’ was Mathilda’s mother – she was shotgunned in the bath…
I have recently watched the extended version of Léon (aka The Professional).
I didn’t knew there was an extended version…must watch that one. Thanks for the tip
@J1X #874:
“I was more familiar with the ‘Hugo’ cover version of 99 problems, clearly there’s a divergence in the lyrics (or I’m going senile). Rap doesn’t ‘speak’ to me as it doesn’t describe my life experiences. Sorry that it touches yours. Fuck that sucks”
O: Nah, don’t sweat it. I just looked Hugo up on YouTube and Wikipedia, and saw the video and read the lyrics – I like it! As it turns out, Hugo’s on Jigga’s record label (we share the same Zodiac Sign, another reason why he’s one of my all-time faves), so that explains the former making a cover of the latter, though it’s also original for the reason you cited; the lyrics are completely different.
Think I’ll download Hugo’s album; thanks for turning me on to him!
O.
@Obs,
don’t need to be UMC to not relate to the 99 problem in the UK – in my generation and area. Still a bit of a shock seeing armed police here (outside airports, and even then – automatic weapons WTF?). I was naive enough to believe that BO might help, should have known better.
@Obs
I love the album!
‘Born’, ‘Mekong river delta’ being my favourites.
I think that he’s Anglo-Thai. I’d not heard of him before the Frightnight titles; ’99 problems’.
@J1X #876:
“I have recently watched the extended version of Léon (aka The Professional). The extra minutes add a totally new spin to the relationship between Léon and Mathilda – I was surprised, not in a good way (how continental…). But not as surprised as the fact that Ellen Greene ‘Audrey’ was Mathilda’s mother – she was shotgunned in the bath…”
O: Hands down one of thee best flicks ever made! Leo The Professional is the bomb(!). Has one of my all-time favorite actors in it – Gary Oldman. One of Hollywood’s true unsung heroes. Guy can act his ass off.
Real rap.
I know Leon The Professional by heart (along with Scarface, Casino, all three Godfathers, Belly, et al) and yea, the French (or “international version” as its called) Director’s Cut is definitely than the original American release. The scene where Matilda’s family gets killed by Stansfield is one of my favorite scenes from the movie. Here’s another favorite scene from the film of mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c&feature=related
O.
@Bastiat #592:
Excellent points you make about the “Porsche study” and flows very nicely with major components of Game; I can explain more if you like.
And yes, what you mention definitely has to do with Cafe Date Theory…which reminds me:
***A HUS EXCLUSIVE***
The following is a never-seen before remix of my original Cafe Date Theory article specifically written for The Good Men Project. It never saw the light of day for reasons that Jack Donovan recently made known at his blog. Let’s just say they don’t call the GMP “the Good Mangina Project” for nothing; I know this firsthand.
You can checkout my original “mix” of CDT at my blog by following the link at the end of this post and put that together with the following never-before seen remix of CDT. I post this because it was I who brought up the whole question of dating, especially the trick/trap “whoever asks, pays” line of thinking that’s so popular among Women and sadly, some Men these days. Also, it was I who raised the question of who actually lies, deceives and manipulates more, Women or Men, along with the question of who is constantly held to account for such things, Women or Men.
The ladies of HUS might do well to consider my articles as they speak to their interests, too; indeed, I would be most interested in hearing what they think. That even includes some of my most vociferous interlocutors and critics.
And now, or Feature Presentation:
Cafe Date Theory (The GMP Remix)
7:10 AM 5/18/2012 Fri
“I knew what their rule was: Girls like this love it when guys buy them drinks. But David X had taught me better: Girls don’t respect guys who buy them drinks. A true pickup artist knows never to buy meals, drinks or gifts for a girl who he hasn’t slept with. Dating is for tools.”
-Neil “Style” Strauss, “The Game”, pp. 155
In the boiler room that is that is the modern day sexual marketplace (SMP), one of the most contentious topics of all, is who pays for dates and whether it’s still a good idea for a guy to ante up when checking out a potential prospect. Much has been written about this topic, hence the quote above – and, in light of fellow GMPer Chuck Ross’ May 10, 2012 article, “Scenes From a Starbucks: Blind Date”, and the passionate response it received, I thought this piece of mine would be a fitting “part two” of that conversation. While we as a society have gained many things in the decades since the Women’s Movement and Sexual Revolution(s), we would be remiss if we weren’t honest about the fact that we have lost quite a bit too – in this case, when it comes to courtship rituals and the like. Ross’ piece, about a blind date gone horribly wrong, is a case in point.
Before I begin here, it must be pointed out that while I have greatly benefitted from the teachings of the Seduction Community – what is more commonly known as Game – what I present here today isn’t taken directly from their book per se. It is in fact an original creation on my part, formulated and refined many years before I had ever heard of the Mystery Method, or anything else even slightly related to Seduction/Game. Yet, as I would discover years later when I became more formally Game-aware, my “Cafe Date Theory” resonated deeply with some of the core tenets of Game – and so, I pass this along to my brothers in the hope that they will find it useful in their exploits out there on the modern-day Savannah that is the dating and mating marketplace.
What, you ask, is Cafe Date Theory?
Simply put, it is a model of courting that is done in a low-risk, low-pressure way for both parties, male and female; it is designed to achieve the goals of assessment of both in a way that preserves the dignity and honor of both parties, whether they hit it off or not.
In more traditional contexts, the dating ritual was such that all the onus was put on the man to make the investment – one that he could lose should the woman not find what he offered to her liking; and to be fair in our time, that same traditional arrangement can and often does put undue pressure upon the female to sexually reciprocate a display of resources that the date symbolized, regardless as to whether she felt any attraction to the male in question. CDT, as I like to refer it, sweeps away these problems and concerns, among other things (please see the quote above, and by all means, please do read the pages from which the above quote was lifted for more on this point).
From an Evolutionary Psychology perspective, Humanity’s sexual psychology was an outgrowth of their evolved adaptations towards solving an array of problems in the ancestral environment. One of those problems, for both sexes, was assessing the costs of mating, and how to mitigate said costs. However, there isn’t a symmetrical relationship between male and female along these lines; in other words, men and women don’t equally share the same costs to mate. Women, share a higher cost to mate, because they must invest a minimum of nine months – the time of gestation of a human fetus – in the act of mating. For men on the other hand, the costs are minimal – ranging from a matter of minutes to even seconds.
Yet, there are other ways that men have to be concerned about the associative costs of mating, and this comes in the area of nuptial gifts (which dates are proxies for) that serve as inducements to get women to mate. The problem, from both a traditional and modern day standpoint, is that it is possible for a woman (or string of women, as it were), to accept the gifts offered and then abscond without reciprocating in kind sexually. Such repeated instances happening to a man could prove ruinous over the long run. A man needs a way to protect himself from such fraudulent tactics and his investment, whatever that may be.
CDT, then, takes its cues from the evolutionary truth of the minimal investment men must make sexually in the courtship process; it asks, what is the minimum investment necessary for me to meet a prospective mate wherein which I can assess her attributes in a way that is low-pressure for her? After a few fits and starts, the answer I came up with was, the cost of a visit to the barbershop – which for most men rarely goes beyond $20 USD (and rarely extends beyond a half an hour; more on this point below).
Here’s a bulleted list that fleshes out CDT in more detail:
1. The idea is to plan a mini-date (a pre-date interview with the lady in question) that allows you to assess various aspects of her in a low cost, low risk way. I’ve found the best way to do this is within the context of a brief cafe date; if things go sour for some reason, your losses are intentionally minimal.
2. Most big cities have many cafe type settings; I recommend that you map out all of the ones near you, sample their wares and keep them on your shortlist of places to meet with your prospects. Oh, and avoid the big name chains like Starbucks etc – you want to create a feeling of uniqueness and intimacy-therefore, hit up the more indie/electic spots.
3. Also, make sure you do the meet in broad daylight, the sunnier the better-if at all possible, sit outside. This adresses several things: you’re meeting at a time of day most don’t associate with sex; you’re able to fully assess her goods since women are known to use shadow to cover their more unflattering features (think Blanche DuBois); and meeting in such an open, public space puts her at ease (and also protects you in case she’s mentally and/or emotionally unstable – false rape charges and the like are very real. Until you get to know her well, always have witnesses).
4. Make the meet no more than 45 minutes long, preferrably a half an hour. It doesnt take long for a man to decide if he wants to move forward (sexually) with a woman or not; and 45 minutes is ample time for a woman to decide if she wants to move forward with you as well. Meeting over a couple of lattes at a hipster cafe in the early afternoon will reflect well on you, as well as keeping things deliciously brief. Men of importance always have things to do.
The great thing about cafe date theory, aside from the aforementioned, is that it is what I call “Mission Variable”; it can be tailored to suit the particularities of the situation. Say for example, you two hit it off right away; you can easily convert the cafe first meet into a more formal date, which also achieves the needed venue switching (and rapport/comfort building) and goes towards time on the clock (see “The Seven Hour Rule” for more) that women require in order to feel comfortable with having sexual relations with you.
However, as Ross’ article makes painfully clear, there can and will be times when things will NOT go well; in that case, there are ways my CDT can handle that with aplomb and grace. Let’s look at what Ross said, and then we’ll come back with some remedial fixes:
“A blonde woman sat over at the table next to me, but I didn’t pay much attention to her. From my periphery she seemed decent looking. Ten minutes after arriving and ordering an espresso infused beverage and that still-there coffee cake, the guy she had been waiting for finally showed up. They shook hands and immediately grew silent.”
Fellas, always arrive at the date before she does. This is vitally important: it establishes that you’re mature, serious and are respectful and aware of Time – yours and hers. Moreover, it sets the proper tone of the nature of the interaction that is to take place between you two; as ladies prefer to follow the lead of men, your showing up on time and already being in position when she arrives is a powerful signal that you take your role very seriously. Punctuality counts. Remember that.
Secondly:
“The “so….” came too early in the conversation for that relationship to work out. She had a lisp and her bottom jaw jutted out when she spoke. I’m sure he noticed this because I could hear it…
I don’t say that to be mean about her; she seemed really nice. She even left that cake for me. But ten minutes after he got there, I noticed his strategy to set up for an exit. He didn’t order a coffee or even take off his jacket, and I heard something about his long work day almost as soon as he sat down…
When he told her he had to go she said “OK” with manufactured enthusiasm. She wanted to stay there and talk about nothing, at least until her coffee cake was done, but it was obvious that he wasn’t into her.”
This, my brothers, is downright rude, meanspirited even, on the part of the man Chuck is referring to. To be sure, there is nothing in the least wrong with being sexually attracted to certain types of women and if said woman in question doesn’t meet your criteria you are in no way obligated to be with her anyway. Having said all of that, there is still a way to conduct yourself with dignity and to treat the lady with basic human decency. It would not have killed that man to spend 20-30 minutes chatting with the lady, thanking her for her time, and seeing her out the door.
Look, women are incredibly sensitive about their appearance and how vitally important it is to men; you do not need to subcommunicate that she has failed to meet your selection criteria in such a blatantly rude manner as the gentleman did in Chuck’s piece, because, trust me, women know it almost instantly if you’re into them or not. CDT, again, clearly addresses the problem of what happens if and when you meet a lady you’re not sexually attracted to – it is set up in such a way that again, both parties can walk away having saved face:
“Well Betty, I want to thank you for your time and for coming out; here, let me walk you out to your car…”
That’s all you need to say – trust me, she knows the deal, and will be quite thankful that you didn’t treat her like a fire hydrant. You don’t need to lie to her about how you’re going to “call her later” – you both know that’s not true. Saying the simple line above, nothing more, communicates quite clearly, that you are not interested sexually or otherwise in the lady in question, and provides the needed space for her to make a graceful exit. It costs nothing for you to do this, and it shows you to be a man of good character by doing so.
There is the view among a small but vocal corner of the Seduction Community, that holds that being an, and I quote here, “asshole”, is the way to go toward being attractive to women, and an overall state of mind and approach toward the world. I think by the passage Mr. Ross gives above of the actions of the gentleman at Starbucks, that such a strategem, even if admittedly highly effective, has a lot to answer for in terms of its utter lack of social graces and human decency.
It is my view – and I am very pleased to say that Neil “Style” Strauss clearly agrees with me, based on his bestselling book “The Game” – that one need not be a sociopathic jerk in order to do well with women. Indeed, being a cultured, dignified man can go a long way with the womenfolk. The trick however, is in knowing how to be gentleman, without also being a doormat. That, is something that I aim to discuss in a future piece.
Stay tuned…
The Obsidian
@Ana & Obs
on the blu-ray disc there are two versions. the default one is a fair amount longer than the theatrical version (20+ mins IIRC). the relationship between Léon and Mathilda is expanded (there’s a resteraunt scene that I don’t remember seeing before, but it has been a few years). one of the extras on the disc explained that when the ‘full’ version was shown as a pre-screening, the US audience didn’t like it (on the whole, I’m with ‘you’ guys FWIW), so it was cut. It doesn’t change the overall movie, but changes the relationship – there’s a hint of its after-effects in the theatrical version (again IIRC) when they have to change hotels again.
Gary Oldman was FANTASTIC in the movie though. I loved Jean Reno, but Gazza was mindblowing. One of the other extras show the evolution between takes of the ‘I love Beethoven’ scene, halfway through the boomstick escapade…very cool to see it grow to be the version that I love. I always loved Gary’s side-kick that looked like he was about to have a panic attack (or a baby) whilst shepherding Gary.
@Obs, I’ll have to tackle that tomorrow – it requires concentration. Catch you then
Should I be offended that I’ve never been approached or harassed for my number, even in my youth?
No you missed out on some genuinely terrifying experiences, not ego-boosting, flattery or validation.
@Ramble
Agreed. Both sexes were fed the heap of BS, but men have paid a much, much higher price. We women didn’t fare so well either – we’re less attractive to you, for starters.
@BB
LOL, that’s brilliant. I once sent my husband flowers to his workplace – he was nonplussed. But also pleased. A guy getting flowers was the talk of the office all week.
It is not possible to overestimate the power of female intrasexual competition.
Come on, Obs, there’s no need to be snide. I for one enjoy J’s commentary about her DH – she is a great role model for young female readers. Additionally, as the daughter of an alpha thug, she has many relevant insights to share.
Speaking of cafe date theory, it turns out that the most popular first dates for both sexes are low cost, active outings. That’s already the norm. I plan to post on this shortly.
Wudang: ” I don`t know a single woman who has gone on a date just for food and drinks”
True story. Many years back I happened to be on a public bus at the same time as a gaggle of young fashion models (complete coincidence; there was some sort of Vogue event in that small city that week). It was impossible not to hear their conversation, which was entirely taken up by two subjects: (1) how much they all suspected that their agents were cheating them, and (2) where was the best place to find some men who would take them out to a nice dinner somewhere. It seemed plain that they were underpaid, underfed, and underage, so I suppose a bit of “silver-digging” can be forgiven; overall their situation hardly seemed enviable. Also: junior fashion models look really weird up close, with long skinny fingers like E.T.; but let me not add to their troubles.
I don’t think this story means much in the larger scheme of things, it just happened to be true.
“…send them to my work, that way all the other girls can see and get jealous.”
The remarkable thing about this to me is not that the woman wanted to inspire a little envy from her coworkers, but that she was so open about what she was doing and why. Wouldn’t most people be more likely to come up with an excuse, even if it was a transparent one, like “send them to my work because stuff sent to my home tends to disappear sometimes”??
FWIW it was leaving a single rose on my SO’s doorstep on my way home from work one afternoon that got her thinking about me in a long term way. We weren’t actually dating yet, so I guess it doesn’t count as first date flowers…
@ms walsh:
Given the current economic environment along w/the ubiquity of both “hooking up” along w/the prevalance of game-as you said yourself it has indeed gone mainstream-im not surprised in the least to learn that many folks do some variant of cdt. But trust me when i tell you, what ive relayed about females out there demanding a “proper date” upfront are not some figment of a guys imagination. They are very real, and guys need to know how to protect themselves.
Tight game goes a long way toward behavior modification.
As for ms j, until she opened her flap in my direction i was content to let have her say w/o comment. But since she done went there, what the heck: i honestly question whether all the slobbering about her “dh” really does have any realworld utility to the ladies here. I mean, take your recent post about “emotional escalation” that you had to take down; you provided some evidence that what you talk about has some impact for your lady readers, and i for one can appreciate that.
But ms j’s stuff just comes off as one big mental purple saguaro session-real rap. And again until she came at me w/all that nonsense, i was cool w/ignoring it. But since she done went there i decided to put a spotlight on her stuff, and like i pointed out w/her supposedly “alpha thug dad” i find her “advice” not only to be bs but its lacking in its own right. Like i said and i reiterate: a gal following her “advice” out on the bricks will only wind up getting f*cked up if not worse. That “self defense” “colombiana” crap only works in the movies; in the realworld, zoe saldana/angelina jolie/bridgette fonda winds up being a stat in the police blotter. If thats what passes for “advice” i shudder to think what her “dh” mantras will do for any chica out there on the smp today in real time.
Im just sayin…you know how i do. I keeps it real-and raw.
O.
“It is not possible to overestimate the power of female intrasexual competition.”
I´ve become more aware of this after hanging at this site and talking to women who hang out other places in the sphere. I plan on finding ways to work it to my benefit such as sending flowers to work.
@wudang:
I wouldnt put myself in the middle of female intrasexual competition, chief. Thats like trying to ride a fire-breathing dragon. Sure, weve all heard of stuff like mysterys “jealousy gambit” etc but ive never seen such things staged/instigated by guys end well. The ladies do a very good job of tearing each other down over guys thank you very much lol. A wise man lets the opposing sides beat each other up-not gets in between em.
O.
Obsidian – Although I can’t disagree that in theory no “professional” PUA promotes abuse or neglect (mental or physical) to a woman, I read plenty of PUA blogs where many commenters certainly promote the opinion that women are less than human and no man should feel guilt or remorse P & D’ing the “batshit crazy” ones. Ya know, they just *might* be batshit crazy because they’ve been P & D’ed so many times. Surely they have some responsibility as they are the gatekeepers of sex, but I really get tired of seeing the “REAL pickup guys don’t abuse women” theme. If the definition of “real” PUA is a guy that writes books and/or makes a living off of his “bangs”, then I will agree with you that they generally do not promote such bad behavior. But, there are PLENTY of men running “game” that have NO such moral dilemma using and abusing women for whatever it is they want without regard for how it affects those women down the road. And to me, it is at least partly the fault of those same men making a living off of these deranged souls. If all they are doing is giving free advice, well you get what you pay for. But for those men that claim to be “experts” training other men in their “craft”, they should do a better job of at least policing their comments. Not by deletion, but by quick and stern corrections of any blatant disregard for the feelings of other human beings. Most just let those comments slide, some make a point of “showcasing” them by making witty comments in reply.
To me it is no different than running a dojo that promotes brutal assault on anyone that doesn’t agree with you. It just isn’t a responsible way to teach, and it certainly isn’t a responsible way to act.
She was an interesting girl, and one that made swallowing the Red Pill relatively easy.
@ted:
Name the blogs. I have my copy of “the game” at the ready; style is one of the founding fathers of game as we know it in the modern age. Name the blogs and we’ll see if the authors of said blogs comes anywhere near style, let alone comparing what the two actually say about such matters.
If youll notice, i always mention two specific sources when it comes to game: the mystery method, and the game. This is for a very good reason: these are guys whove actually done it. Not to brag but ive been around the block a few times but these guys have done to a larger degree than i have and i can vouch for what they say based on my own life. So when i hear folks like yourself mention “pua blogs” my response is “name em”.
WHO are you talking about, ted? WHO are saying the things youre taking objection to?
I need names.
Name the blogs/bloggers.
O.
“Wouldn’t most people be more likely to come up with an excuse, even if it was a transparent one, like “send them to my work because stuff sent to my home tends to disappear sometimes”??”
LOL my SO told me straight out that she would prefer I send any flowers for her to the office for this reason exactly, and I’m more than happy to oblige her on it. Not only does it make her happy, but it gets her co-workers all a little jealous AND envious, which also seems to make my SO (and most women) happy as well. I understand a few other BF/husbands at her practice have taken to doing the same, so I guess I made life a little tougher for them. *shrug* To me it’s less stressful since there is always someone at the office to get the delivery. Nothing worse than spending big bucks on flowers and then having to figure out how to get them.
And for the record, I don’t buy flowers often. My SO sometimes complains I don’t buy them enough, but as has been stated many times over, if I buy them more often they won’t have as much affect. She argues with me on it, but now every time I walk in with a bouquet she gets all silly. She may not acknowledge it, but I know DAMN WELL if I bought her flowers every week, that reaction would disappear quickly.
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