An interesting debate on the concept of “lying by omission” has sprung up in the most recent comment thread. Specifically, we’ve been discussing the strategic vs. moral implications of having sex with multiple people, while evaluating which of those people, if any, you’d like to be exclusive with. What are you morally obligated to disclose about your sexual motives and activities to your various partners?
Obviously, if all parties are fully aware that the sex is no-strings and concurrent with other sexual relationships, it’s “No harm, No foul.” Everyone is making an informed decision. However, from there it’s only a hop, skip and a jump to “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” This may also be agreed upon, as in an open relationship: “I don’t care if you have affairs, but I don’t want to know anything about them.”
In today’s SMP “Don’t ask, don’t tell” has become the go-to strategy of opportunists trying to squeeze out personal gain at the expense of someone else while taking cover under a plea of ignorance. It may take the form of a woman leading a guy on to get the benefits of commitment without allowing the relationship to become sexual. Or a guy may lead a woman on to get sex without ever intending to offer commitment.
Generally, intentional misleading is referred to as lying by omission. While some commenters have stated that they believe the phrase is an oxymoron, it has been widely explored as a potential form of dishonesty by philosophers, ethicists and mental health counselors.
From Wikipedia:
Lying by omission
Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. When the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission.
As I began to research lying, I was surprised to find that the topic of dishonesty has been a hotly debated topic for hundreds of years. From an article about the ground rules of lying in Time Magazine:
When is it permissible to tell a lie? Never, according to Augustine and Kant. Machiavelli approved lying for princes, Nietzsche for the exceptional hero—the Superman.
Tim Mazur is an ethicist and the COO of the Ethics and Compliance Officer Association. His article on lying for the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University has been frequently cited. He outlines the three philosophies that deal with the problem of lying:
I. Morality
The philosopher Immanuel Kant said that lying was always morally wrong. He argued that all persons are born with an “intrinsic worth” that he called human dignity.
…Lying corrupts the most important quality of my being human: my ability to make free, rational choices. Each lie I tell contradicts the part of me that gives me moral worth. My lies rob others of their freedom to choose rationally. When my lie leads people to decide other than they would had they known the truth, I have harmed their human dignity and autonomy.
In Kant’s view, which is also shared by Augustine, lying is wrong no matter what. For example, it is wrong to lie about your sister’s whereabouts in order to protect her from her abusive husband in this strict view.
II. Virtue Ethics
Virtue ethics also maintains that lying is morally wrong, though less strictly than Kant…Though the nature of virtue ethics makes it difficult to assess the morality of individual acts, those who advocate this theory generally consider lying wrong because it opposes the virtue of honesty. There is some debate whether a lie told in pursuit of another virtue is right or wrong.
III. Utilitarian Ethics
According to utilitarian ethics, Kant and virtue ethicists ignore the only test necessary for judging the morality of a lie – balancing the benefits and harms of its consequences. Utilitarians base their reasoning on the claim that actions, including lying, are morally acceptable when the resulting consequences maximize benefit or minimize harm.
Unsurprisingly, utilitarian ethics comes under intense criticism for its rejection of morality in favor of a flexibility to be defined by the liar. According to Mazur, “People often poorly estimate the consequences of their actions or specifically undervalue or ignore the harmful consequences to society (e.g., mistrust) that their lies cause…The problem is that too few persons adequately consider any ethical perspective when facing a situation that tempts a lie.”
Why We Lie So Much, and Lies, Lies, Lies, articles in Time Magazine, describe a sharp rise in the frequency of lying in contemporary society.
Lies flourish in social uncertainty, when people no longer understand, or agree on, the rules governing their behavior toward one another.
…We are living in a time and culture in which it’s easier to lie than it has been in the past. The message that pervades society is that it’s O.K. to lie — you can get away with it. One of the things I found in my research is that when you confront people with their lies, they very rarely display remorse. Lying is not seen as being morally reprehensible in any strong way.
You can make the assumption that because it often makes social interactions go more smoothly, lying is O.K. But there is a cost to even seemingly benign lies…Lies put a smudge on an interaction, and if it’s easy to lie to people in minor ways, it becomes easier to lie in bigger ways.
UCLA Political Science Professor Barry O’Neill has written A Formal System For Understanding Lies and Deceit. In it he describes a kind of lying via manipulation:
Manipulation is inducing someone to do something while withholding information relevant to their decision, information that they would want to know. Another is to say that manipulation occurs when one persuades another using knowledge of their particular psychology, rather than rational means. Both of these touch on the idea of the idea that the manipulator is using broader knowledge than the victim.
One example is “when the person does nothing active to induce a false belief, but deliberately hides their own actions that would correct it.” Another is “evasive talk, often to avoid blame. It is a lie but does not include anything literally false.”
The All-Important Question of Intent
In yet another Time article about the lying that goes on in political campaigns, writer Paul Gray acknowledges he difficulty of judging the morality of lies, but sees a solution:
Fortunately, there is a way out of this logical blind alley. All lies, regardless of their relationship to the truth, have one thing in common.
“We must single out,” writes Sissela Bok in Lying, “from the countless ways in which we blunder misinformed through life, that which is done with the intention to mislead.” Lies may confuse everyone who hears them, as they are meant to, but liars know exactly what they are doing while they are doing it.
In Telling Lies, Paul Ekman, a professor of psychology at the University of California medical school in San Francisco, provides a slightly more elaborate definition: “One person intends to mislead another, doing so deliberately, without prior notification of this purpose, and without having been explicitly asked to do so by the target. There are two primary ways to lie: to conceal and to falsify.”
Clearly, lying by commission is to falsify with deliberation, and lying by omission is to conceal with deliberation. Why is it so easy to conceal the truth from people? According to Eben Harrell at Time:
We are not very good at detecting deception in other people. When we are trying to detect honesty, we look at the wrong kinds of nonverbal behaviors, and we misinterpret them. The problem is that there is no direct correlation between someone’s nonverbal behavior and their honesty.
What’s more, a lot of the time, we don’t want to detect lies in other people. We are unwilling to put forward the cognitive effort to suspect the veracity of statements, and we aren’t motivated to question people when they tell us things we want to hear.
This last statement is crucial in our understanding of the impact of lying by omission. Each one of us is responsible for putting forth the required cognitive effort to make good decisions, and when we enter a state of denial we willingly avoid the truth. When we fail to do these things we commit an error of judgment, but not one of morality.
This does not in any way dilute or supersede examination of the morality of the person who does conceal. When it comes to ethical issues, intent is king.
Alex Lickerman, MD is a Buddhist physican who reflects on issues of morality. He suggests that all deceit is designed to offer protection for:
- Ourselves: avoid suffering painful consequences,shame, embarrassment, or conflict.
- Our interests: to get what we want.
- Our image: to look better to others.
- Our resources: to avoid doing what we don’t want to do.
- Others: spare others’ feelings.
What are the implications for relationships?
1. If you have information that you believe might change another person’s choice about whether to enter a sexual or dating relationship with you, you are morally obligated to reveal, rather than conceal it.
2. It is invalid to excuse lying by omission by deploying utilitarian ethics or moral equivalency. Examples might include:
- “Lots of men lie to women and lead them on, so I should be able to do the same thing to them.”
- “Feminism screwed up the SMP so badly that lying by omission is necessary to level the playing field. This will benefit society.”
- “Creating a mentality of abundance requires concealment, because honesty would reduce my options.”
- “High heels, push-up bras and makeup are all forms of lying. This deception is no different.”
- “It’s for his own benefit, I think he’d really rather not know.”
3. Our culture rewards liars. Seek a partner who subscribes to a value system of honesty as a virtue. Reject any involvement with a person who relies on utilitarian principles for moral guidance.
4. Finally, the National Survey of Family Growth found that 6.6% of American men have concurrent sexual relationships, though researchers believe the number is closer to 10%. This is a significant risk factor for STD transmission, especially for women. From WebMD:
Concurrent sexual relationships were particularly common among these groups:
- Unmarried men
- Men who had been in prison
- Men who reported being intoxicated while having sex
- Men who have had sex with men
- Men with female sex partners who had concurrent sexual relationships of their own
5. Habitual lying is a sociopathic behavior. It goes hand in hand with low empathy and is common among narcissists.
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@Susan
Not sure if you saw this but an interesting article (it’s 15 months old) says that the number of 18-19 year old virgins increased from 2002 to 2008, the more interesting and probably statistically significant change being in girls, rising from 17 to ~25%:
“The percentage of those who claim virginity appears to be increasing, according to a National Center for Health Statistics study released this month of 2006-08 data. Among 18- and 19-year-olds, about one-quarter of men and women said they hadn’t had sexual contact with another person, up from 17% of women and 22% of men in 2002. Among those ages 20-24, 12% of women and 13% of men said they were virgins, up from 8% for both sexes in 2002.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/wellness/dating/story/2011/03/More-hookups-on-campuses-but-more-virgins-too/45556388/1
@Han
When we talk about virgins:
does anal count?
does oral count?
does manual aid count?
born-again virgins? (for 18-19 year olds, I would hope this to not be a big factor, but…)
I’m not THAT old, but I hear stories that them, there, youngsters don’t count anything short of PinV, and even then, if ‘it’ is withdrawn in time…that’s not virginity by any reasonable standard.
@Susan
“In the 70s, a girlfriend who swallowed was the talk of the locker room. Now Athlone McGinnis hears about the girls who give rimjobs in his Ivy Leage locker room. This is nothing more than an upping of the ante as men become inured to vanilla sex as a result of watching porn.”
Hands off porn!
I think that porn has a great value to men, it lowers the price that they will pay for sex. Women (naturally) want the maximum price that they can get for access to ‘the goods’, whether that’s financial (wine and dine), or marriage. It’s how sex works for the egg-layer.
Porn allows men (the seed-sprayers) to clear their heads, look at the cost of the night out chasing the girls, consider the odds of trapping and think, “sod it, I’ll have a J Arthur and spend the night with me mates and a game”
To misquote the NRA
“I’ll give you my porn when you pry it from my warm, furry hands!”
“Sod it, I’ll have a J Arthur and spend the night with me mates and a game”.
—-Surely we need to institute a “HUS Line of the Month”" award to properly recognized a masterpiece like this. Good show, old chap.
I say old bean, if you understand ‘J Arthur’ you must ‘local’…
(currently waiting for rain at Silverstone. Button or Hammy, not fussed which)
Fists clenched, stomping feet in a frenzied tantrum, her face all beet red, Lindy West from Jezebel screeches out:
“So there—love can grow out of a sweaty one-night stand”
So there! So there! So there! SO THERE! ahhhhhrrrrgggh!!!!!!!!
http://jezebel.com/5923855/turns-out-getting-slutty-on-the-first-date-can-lead-to-marriage
Reality: the jezzies are admitting that its MEN, solely men, not society, who decide that relationships will happen. This is the one area where feminists have NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA ability via laws to alter the system in their favor. They have to either a] beg men or at least ask them to change or b] convince them its all cultural and really no big deal that marriage-worthy women fuck often and with ease.
This “issue” is so infuriating for women that it causes some to come on to this site with varying strategies designed to trap select commenters into an admission that slut behavior is a legitimate and pervasive path to matrimony.
Hey trollass, how’s that working out for ya?
marriage
There were hundreds of comments with SO MANY of them detailing how their “sluttiness” led to their current marriage. Can someone explain how this is possible?
——————————————–
Is marriage now the end goal? Not a “good marriage?” I know people who are married and miserable, that is no accomplishment–o matter how they met.
@Abbot
in hamster maths ‘could’ + ‘should’ == ‘does’
back in the real world, whether hamsters like it or not, high partner count is a relationship turn-off for men. And with reason; marriage survival rates are bad enough, but the higher the number, the worse the prognosis. (dread blogger D)
back in the real world, whether hamsters like it or not, high partner count is a
relationship turn-off for men. And with reason; marriage survival rates are bad
enough, but the higher the number, the worse the prognosis. (dread blogger D)
———————————————————
I bet there are men, tho, that think a girl who has sex on the first date, really LIKES sex and will really LIKE sex frequently with him forever.
“the higher the number…”
…the lower the inherent male bonding and dedication feelings
“really LIKES sex and will really LIKE sex frequently with him forever.”
I waved this at my male hamster; he twitched. So, I suspect that you’re right, there will be suckers that buy that.
It could be a good sign that she’ll be less tempted to use sex as a weapon (h/t Pat Benatar), but I wouldn’t bet on it. Denial of sex is THE best weapon that a woman has IF the man has to remain in the relationship.
“It could be a good sign that …”
she is honest and its on him to decide if he wants to marry such a woman and more woman from the slut pool should be mandated to do that
@Just1X:
*Winces*
No doubt you’re right, if the plan is to burn the relationship to the ground..
Seems like a hallmark of dysfunction to me. I can’t see this tactic being used on the regular if it’s a healthy relationship.
@Iggles
Yeah, any extended period of that and it’s time to check out the local lawyers. Hopefully, for so many reasons, there are no kids involved.
I had a friend who said that he knew to the minute when his second child was conceived. Sex dried up after the first kid. He took her away for a long weekend to rekindle the joy…he got one session out of it, from which she became preggers. She clearly saw sex as just something she did (after marriage) to be pregnant, what he wanted didn’t make (enough of) a difference. I think I’d describe the marriage as joyless for him, wouldn’t you? Just a wallet and a sperm donor.
Quoting Ms. J # 1199: “IDK, M3, I actually believe that it’s possible. Didn’t SW once post a statistic that said that 12% of hookups lead to relationships?”
O: Indeed Ms. Walsh said this waaaaay back near the beginning of her blogging career here at HUS – and her statement is not without merit. Buss talks about the sex-for-relationship gambit quite a few Women attempt, and if it weren’t evolutionarily successful at least *some* of the time, it wouldn’t exist today. It’s just not the best or most efficient strategy – but it *is* a mating strategy, nonetheless.
O.
@Obs, yeah legally speaking you are correct, but
Sooooo…7 times in 8 NO relationship follows. Out of those 1 in 8, how many lead to an LTR? (let alone marriage). 1 in 10? 20? who knows? Taking 1 in 20, we have 1 in (8 * 20), so 1 in 160 odds – cool.
Is there a weaker word than ‘strategy’? ‘plan’ and ‘method’ feel too strong.
The trouble is people don’t understand odds. If they did, they wouldn’t waste money on lotteries (aka the moron tax).
You can call it a mating strategy, in the same way slot machines are a savings strategy.
Just1X,
Yikes! That is a horrible story! I feel for your friend. Sounds like his (ex?)wife wasn’t really into him, and it’s awful plus a complete fraud IMO to marry someone purely for the fringe benefits of having a husband
IME, as a woman if you love your guy you don’t use sex as a weapon or only acquiesce on your terms. That would be selfish at best, and manipulative/sociopathic at worst! When you’re in love, you hate the idea of hurting the other person. (Case in point, I hate arguing with my boyfriend. Yes, there are times when he makes me mad, and other times that we hurt each others’ feelings but it’s not something either of us set out to do! I don’t do things to spite him, even when I’m upset.)
When it comes to sex specifically, if you are attracted to the person you’re with then it’s something you’re prone to do because it’s enjoyable, the desire is there, and intimacy bonds you together. I would say women who are married or in LTRs and have stopped having sex with their guys for long stretches of time are simply not attracted to them anymore.* I have never been married, so I don’t have firsthand experience with a sexless marriage. However, I was in a long LTR in which desire waned towards the end. We had a number of problems and I think it was a symptom not the disease (i.e., the disease being a broken relationship).
Anyway, this is looking into the “why?” — bottom line, this sort of thing is unacceptable for a healthy relationship! It is essential that both partners get their needs met: emotionally and physically for the relationship to work. Withdrawing from the physical aspect of a romantic relationship is just as dysfunctional as emotional abandonment or breaching trust!
(* If frequency of sex has always been low, then it’s possible the woman’s desire level for sex is either lower than average or she is asexual. If the man also is low desire or asexual, then obviously there would be no issue regarding compatibility. A sexless marriage is okay if both partners agree to it. To me it’s problematic when there’s “false advertising” and one partner flips the script after marriage.)
@Ms. Walsh # 1092:
“Agree on all but the last part – alpha and beta has little to do with looks. Women dislike hypermasculine faces, and lots of betas are handsome.”
O: Uh, source(s), please? Buss doesn’t say any of this at all. Please explain?
O.
@Just1X 1203
The definition of what ‘is’ is, comparing apples to apples or virgins to virgins, is of course crucial. I don’t know whether the 2002 and 2008 definition of virginity in the mind of the responders is exactly the same but I would bet that the shift in definition isn’t too large over 6 years but that’s just a WAG.
Whether they include oral, etc. isn’t the important point as long as the average definition stayed the same. Now, if we want a deeper examination of behaviour then more detailed questions about specific activities is required: oral, p-v, manual, etc. I admit ‘virgin’ is an ambiguous term as is ‘hook-up’.
@Iggles
haven’t seen him for 10-12 years, so don’t have an update. It’s hard to see that he could turn it round. This was clearly pre-AtholK. At that time I had realised that the blue pill was broken, but had yet to discover the red one. (This wasn’t a factor in my divorce, but it would have been).
Emotion + Sex = woo hoo!
OR (from the male prespective)
Sex + emotion = woo hoo!
Have fun with BF, best of luck.
@J1X:
Yea, I feel ya Man. But, from an Evo POV, ANYTHING that works, even a fraction of the time, would have proven useful in the pursuit of human mating (EvoPsych of course addresses a whole range of adaptive problems for humanity; this forum deals with EvoPsych insofar as human mating problems are concerned. Just wanted to put that out there). So, to that extent, yea, a Woman offering a hookup that goes all the way, makes sense in trying to parlay it into a relationship. And Women do indeed do it a lot more often than many may be willing to admit; its just that its success rate isn’t very high.
The flipside of this is the Orbiter Strategy MANY guys do; you know, offer to be a Woman’s “friend”, then try to parlay that into a sexual relationship with the Woman? Well, per Buss, this strategy has an EIGHTY PERCENT FAILURE RATE. Or in other words, a guy doing this will FAIL, 8 times out of 10.
But you know what? *20% of the time it works* – and hence, why guys will probably NEVER stop doing it; because its proven to work even at the vey improbable levels it does. And as we all know, it only takes one time to tap it in order to make baby – right?
As I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that logic and reason aren’t necessarily humanity’s strong suits…
O.
@Han
I would generally support you about the speed of social change, but somewhere in the last 10-20(-30?) years the definition has radically changed.
In the 80′s you’d be laughed out of the room if you claimed to be a virgin because you’d done everything except PinV. Or you were a virgin because you’d confessed sleeping with someone to your personal (LJBF) jesus, and he said you were a born again virgin. (no, I don’t want to go to religion – if that’s what you call this)
@MikeC #1136: “Obsidian,
It’s funny you mention Taken in this thread as I was thinking about bringing it up earlier in this thread as it was just on TV the other day and it got me thinking about “ethics”. In the movie, Neeson’s character is a bad ass mofo…no doubt. At one point in the movie, he tortures a man to get the information he needs. In another part, he shoots the wife (who is completely innocent of anything) with a fleshwound to get the French officer to give the information he needs, and when he holds back he says the next shot will be a kill shot.”
O: Oh yea, I recall those scenes very well, especially the dinner scene – that was Gangsta.
“Anyways, watching that movie got me thinking about “ethical dilemmas”. You know, its really only been a short period of human history with Western style civilization of settling matters in a judicial court with non-violence. Most of human history was very violent. I suspect men’s ethical systems evolved to operate in a more grey area in order to allow in certain situations “to do what must be done” in order to serve some greater purpose or overall better outcome.”
O: Hmm…very, very provocative series of statements you make here! I sense yet another deep discussion coming on.;) I’d like very much to explore that, as I think it does have a goodly bit to do with broader discussions obtaining here at HUS and elsewhere.
In the meantime, are you familiar with Steven Pinker? He has out a very good book that addresses all this called The Better Angels of Our Nature – a huge book that covers the history of violence and how far we’ve come as a species in that regard. Good stuff!
“I loved 24….perhaps one of my favorite shows of all time because of the situations Jack Bauer was in. In my mind, there was zero doubt he was a good man but he could be an utterly ruthless bastard when the conditions called for it. I believe this is uniquely male trait except perhaps when it comes to women and their offspring, and I suspect capacity for violence is another one of those things that exists on the alpha-beta continuum. The extreme of aggressive violence is obviously not desirable, but its polar opposite is essentially fear of physical conflict and cowardice. And that is one of the greatest insults a woman can level against a man….to call him a coward.”
O: Tru dat – and I LOVED 24, too. I remember having heated debates with fellow Black folks about Bauer and the show, this was around the time of Sep 11 and its aftermath and the whole moral questions surrounding torture, etc. And of course I was labelled all kinds of “Black Republican” and whatnot for siding with Bauer. My position is look, I will do what must be done to save lives. I don’t relish the idea of torture etc, but if it will save lives I’ll do it and hash it out with God later.
I really wish they do a major motion picture on 24 for the big screen because it deserves a full-on rated R treatment. While 24 was a great series, there are things you can do with it on the big screen that you really just couldn’t on tv. And, while I love characters like Jason Bourne, James Bond and Ethan Hunt, Jack Bauer brought a gritty realism that I can deeply resonate with.
Finally: thank you for your kudos. Nuff respect!
O.
“As I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that logic and reason aren’t necessarily humanity’s strong suits…”
No, you didn’t, but thanks because I LMAO’d.
I’m really surprised that it works 1 time in 5, didn’t work as well as that for blue-pill, nice guy, me. I still think that I’m a nice guy (most of the time), but I now place a realistic value on me and a maximum ‘price’ for a shag (cohabiting, kids and marriage are off the table). This effectively makes me an MGTOW. Not because I hate women (I don’t), but just have a perspective on what a relationship is worth to me and a massive mistrust of the law (now and future). I have no interest in taking a second gamble with all of my future, this is a clear-headed, cold-sober decision that I have made. Other people are welcome to come to different decisions, and society having a future requires that they do.
“I’ll give you my porn when you pry it from my warm, furry hands!”
I though it was I will give away my porn when you give away your romance novels…Since I like porn I never have a problem with it.
@ Just1X:
Thanks
@Ana,
nope, you keep your novels!
in the UK, masturbation is meant to make you go blind, or have hairy palms. In France you’re supposed to go deaf. Have you got any variants of such legends to share? (just the legends, no guilt will be implied).
Have you got any variants of such legends to share?
Not that I remember.
@Ana
so, memory loss? or denial?
(LMAO – sorry, I couldn’t resist. Just kidding)
I said that if someone surprised me by choking me, I would call 911. Indeed, I would consider that assualt. I have no problem with anything two consenting adults choose to participate in. Many men reach out and grab a woman’s throat during sex without asking first. One male Game blogger wrote about doing this during shower sex until the woman passed out and fell to the tile floor. He really got off on that.
It’s not your job to “keep it real” here. Your raw and brutal input is not acceptable when directed at another person. No one is assessing your SMV or predicting your future. Criticism of you has been restricted to your behavior here, and I’m asking you to do the same.
If you don’t, I’ll delete it. My call.
so, memory loss? or denial?
(LMAO – sorry, I couldn’t resist. Just kidding)
Heh is funny…. I don’t think there was a lot of shaming on masturbation growing up you need to remember that I come from a country with high levels of teenager pregnancy so we wish they masturbate a lot more trust me. Also porn and prostitution are somehow legal (technically illegal but no one enforces it) and available pretty much anywhere. The only barrier for kids to get a Playboy is that the damn things are too expensive for our per capita earnings. I remember a small terribly printed dominican porn magazine though, a while back really cheap but with Internet there is a lot of ways to get your fix so I don’t remember seeing it for a while.
@BB
Agreed, he is well positioned for STRs. He has reduced his MMV, which is unlikely to concern him, so the manwhore doesn’t have anything to lose. The women who steer clear of him are incompatible with is life goals in any case.
and the pissy troll and Jezebel sympathizer wants to use that to debunk this entire site [a desperate goal attempted by many] and get everyone to believe that men are universally comfortable wifing up sluts
Huh? Is that directed at me?
@Sassy
It’s a beautiful summer weekend, I’m at the beach, elevating an ankle that I suspect might be broken
I have zero desire to babysit Obs. He can be relentless, I know, but I have to apply the same standard to his comments as to anyone else’s. If you do not wish to interact with him, ignore him – completely.
FWIW, other black women have reported that black women dating out makes him crazy. I don’t know if that is true or not, and he’ll deny he cares. But if he is preoccupied with you for that reason, he won’t relent. Don’t take the bait.
How many of feminists do you know that are prudes and against ONS?
Ironically, early on, feminists were stereotyped as asexual tight asses. Google “bluestockings.”
Ironically, early on, feminists were stereotyped as asexual tight asses. Google “bluestockings.”
I meant modernly, I think I read that the progression of feminists had the first activists women being more like nuns and later was that sex revolution started to have the whole “have sex like a man” politics.
IME, as a woman if you love your guy you don’t use sex as a weapon or only acquiesce on your terms. That would be selfish at best, and manipulative/sociopathic at worst! When you’re in love, you hate the idea of hurting the other person.
Cosigned. Additionally, I have always wondered what women who withhold sex do with their own sex drive while they are withholding. It seems to me to be one of those few punishmensts where the punisher can accurately say, “This hurts me as much as it does you.”
I’m at the beach, elevating an ankle that I suspect might be broken
Yikes, see a doctor, SW! I hope it’s OK.
SW @ 1171:
+1
Manwhores gross me out on a number of levels.
1) I think about health issues with STIs. The more partners you have, the higher chances are you have something. My bill of health in clean in this regard and I really don’t want to catch anything!
2) I’m turned off by the differing outlook on sex & relationships. We’re just not on the same page! Someone who is sociosexually unrestricted and can have sex with no emotion is not an ideal partner for me. To put it in other words, I feel like sex is “cheap” in that scenario – it’s like eating a meal when you’re hungry. It’s nice to be fed but you eat a meal at least three times a day so it’s not such a unique or valued experience. Some meals are delicious, others are so-so. You eat a meal with friends, another with co-workers, and sometimes by yourself. Etc. Sex with emotional intimacy and one partner is more than indulging a bodily function. It’s different than just scratching an itch. Since I have a restricted sociosexual orientation, physical intimacy is combined with emotional intimacy for me (I have no desire to sex up a stranger. Doesn’t matter if he looks like Brad Pitt). It’s something I reserve for relationships, so the idea of hooking up with a guy who puts little value on something I value highly doesn’t mesh well with me. On a base level knowing a guy indiscriminately sexes up chicks (ONS, STRs, FWBs, etc) crosses him off the potential relationship list for me because it signals different value systems.
3) Also, pre-selection does nothing for me. In the case of manwhores, isn’t that the crux of argument of why some argue that his high number doesn’t matter to women?
On side note, I recently took the Helen Fisher test and discovered I was a “Negoiator / Builder”. Sounds right and I suspect has quite an influence on my outlook on relationships!
@Susan
Oh no!
Time for RICE:
Rest
Ice– bag of frozen vegetables if nothing else is around
Compression– ACE bandage works
Elevate
Feel better soon!
Cosigned. Additionally, I have always wondered what women who withhold sex do with their own sex drive while they are withholding. It seems to me to be one of those few punishmensts where the punisher can accurately say, “This hurts me as much as it does you.”
I think when a woman is “mad” enough her sex drive can take a pause. But this does hurts in the long run I have a friend who played this game with her husband (for a Gucci purse of all things on the world) and later on hubby was not into having sex with her and I think they are still recovering for the incident.
I think some women have this idea that men will put up with anything just to get laid…no. Alphas will cheat and Betas already learned to stay without sex for long periods of time. If a man thinks their sexuality is under control of a person that can takes it away any moment she feels like it, for no good reason at all (A PURSE! for Fuck’s sake!!!!) he will reclaim it back and not being as willing to “put out” more often than not. There was this talk about the sexless wife a few years back I wouldn’t be surprise if this is a problem too for some marriages, YMMV.
in the UK, masturbation is meant to make you go blind, or have hairy palms
Same in the USA, though the hairy palms don’t seem like much of a threat. I mean, if I were I guy, some soft, furry palms might be an advantage during masturbation. I would even think it would be an advantage in relating to the ladies.
@Obsidian
This is not Fight Club. We don’t do hits here. Keep it civil, you’re spoiling for a fight and I don’t want it here.
“and the pissy troll and Jezebel sympathizer wants to use that to debunk this entire site [a desperate goal attempted by many] and get everyone to believe that men are universally comfortable wifing up sluts
Huh? Is that directed at me?”
No, the charlatan “prude”
@Ana & M3
Thanks for the wise words and support. I saw the article on a FB wall and followed the link. But that website is a “bubble” — there is no way I (or many other people) would ever be happy in a relationship that starts in sluttiness.
In the words of my dad, Perspective: Use it or lose it!
@Susan
Ouch! Hope it turns out not to be broken, though a sprain can be very painful for a long time. I have some nice photos of a technicolor ankle (mine) which took months to stop hurting (nothing permanent though).
I hope that it settles down with a bit of RICE.
Abbot,
Bless your heart! Are you referring to me?
Tip: “Charlatan prude,” “trollyass,” “pissy,” and “concern troll” are pejoratives that are against the rules of engagement.
Why not attack arguments instead of people?
@Susan
Sorry to hear that. I hope you get better soon.
What is RICE, BTW?
@J – is that what they meant by ‘that touch of mink’? I had completely the wrong idea
On target for HUS:
That Touch of Mink (1962)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056575/
“A rich businessman and a young woman are attracted to each other, but he only wants an affair while she wants to save her virginity for marriage. “
@Ana
Re feminism: Yes, things did progress that way. I just find the change weirdly amazing
,i>I think when a woman is “mad” enough her sex drive can take a pause.
I think that’s normal. Even Athol Kay distiguishes between manipulation and being to angry or upset for sex.
But this does hurts in the long run I have a friend who played this game with her husband (for a Gucci purse of all things on the world)
For a purse? That’s nuts.
and later on hubby was not into having sex with her and I think they are still recovering for the incident.
I can imagine that sort of thing can be very destructive to a relationship.
<i There was this talk about the sexless wife a few years back I wouldn’t be surprise if this is a problem too for some marriages, YMMV.
Actually I know a number of women in sexless marriage because the husband either denies them sex out of anger, manipulation, cheating, or whatever. Also, with age and poor health, men can slow down or become inpotent.
@Ana see #1242
@Ana
RICE is an acronym (see post 1242)
Rest
Ice
Compression
Elevate
I have beaten many a sprain this way
is that what they meant by ‘that touch of mink’? I had completely the wrong idea.
Yep, that’s just what they mean.
@Abbot
I don’t think Jackie was advocating the idea by linking the article. I think it was meant in the spirit of “Hey, look at the Jezzies!”
@Ana see #1242
Oops, my bad… In my defense I was hungry so all I can think of, Rice is good for broken ankles?
@J
emoticons that I was disappointed. Here we have posts about emotional escalation and girls trying to figure out ways to make their relationship feel special and build trust.
Quite right! I thought it was clear by the
I’m not sure why Abbot gets to call me names and attack my character. By advocating for casual sex, he has far more in common with the people in the article than I do.
I would be more than glad to put him in touch with my mentor, Sister S. of the Benedictine order, as a character reference in case you all have been fooled by my “charlatan” prudery!
(BTW, from a religious viewpoint, Abbot and “sluts” are on the exact same moral ground. Take it up with a priest if you don’t believe me!)
“attack arguments”
there was no argument. Only provocations
Susan, I hope you go see a doctor.
“I don’t think Jackie was advocating the idea”
The goal is to debunk the premise of HUS. Recast and discredit. The direct attack approach in the past did not work. This curve ball approach does not work either. Not the first time. Won’t be the last.
The provocation to direct the narrative is transparent enough-
“There were hundreds of comments with SO MANY of them detailing how their “sluttiness” led to their current marriage. Can someone explain how this is possible?”
“How are they succeeding in the face of *everything* that HUS is based on?”
@ Jackie. I think my reply to your Sense & Sensibility comment got buried in the massive number of comments. I love S&S. My mom gave me that movie and since then I love Jane Austen movies and books. Check out my comment #811 on comment page 6.
Damn Jackie, you fooled me too. Here I was, thinking that you were nice. The kind of woman to hand out low calorie orange popsicles to ‘hot men’.
Well…that’s a lesson learned…FML.
(I’ve never followed a link to jizzabel without expecting a lack of logical argument, but plenty of provocations.)
They lack the sophistamacated sense of humour of J and me (think mink), in fact any sense of humour whatsoever (barring violence to men).
@Just1X
What? I found the article through a FB post– not trying to troll anyone. If people are succeeding at getting married, I will definitely read about it. Just1X, can you explain how this made me not “nice”? I do value your opinion and humor very much.
PS: The orange popsicle didn’t go to a stereotypical “hot” guy– it was a dude who struggles with his weight and diabetes, by the way.
I was joking!
oh damn, should have sprinkled it with smileys. if you go back and read the comment (with added smileys) and a sense of irony…
(Sorry, my alledged ‘sense of humour’ sometimes backfires)
Peace!
Karen Armstrong on the Golden Rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bhHJ4DRZNZM
@HanSolo
Han, thanks for bringing this to my attention! I have liked you since you were frozen in carbonite back in “Empire”– even when you negged Leia with “I love you”/”I know” exchange.
By finding a guy who loves Jane Austen, I feel like we have spotted a rare Tasmanian tiger or spotted dodo. Welcome good sir! Will definitely go back and read the exchange and respond to you later!
I remember that it was a guy with restricted diet who was suffering in the heat, so he was a ‘hot guy’, of a kind…I don’t remember you saying that he was attractive, but it wasn’t the vibe that I picked up (FWIW).
Have a nice evening, I’m off to dig out a movie in a minute. After watching Léon last week, I might try Nikita (it’s been a while). It was remade as ‘The Assassin’. It stars a drug addict, murderess turned into a government sanctioned assassin, just how I don’t picture you Jackie (and that’s a promise
)
@Just1X
Oops, I think I have an iron(y) deficiency.
Thanks for the explanation, Just1
– it would have been horrible for one of the finest sources of British humor (outside of Monty Python) mad at me!
@Jackie
whew, have a nice evening, I’m off while the going’s good
@Anacoana I left a comment on your P&P blog post. Would like to hear your thoughts there on what I wrote. Cheers!
Something tells me he also gets off on the idea of spending extended periods of time behind bars. This is the most dangerous thing you can do to a person and I’d imagine it is very dangerous to do to someone who you don’t know very well (since this is probably just a hookup). These women have to be the biggest fucking fools. I wish someone would suffocate me without my consent. I’d wouldnt call the cops after woke up. I’d call them after I stuck a knife in his gut.
@Ms. Walsh #
“I said that if someone surprised me by choking me, I would call 911. Indeed, I would consider that assualt. I have no problem with anything two consenting adults choose to participate in. Many men reach out and grab a woman’s throat during sex without asking first. One male Game blogger wrote about doing this during shower sex until the woman passed out and fell to the tile floor. He really got off on that.”
O: *shugs* I was responding to the “holier than thou” nature of the comments in reaction to Breath Play in sexual practices, that somehow it was morally depraved or deviant. That has nothing to do with one’s personal preference, or whether it was or was not assault.
“It’s not your job to “keep it real” here. Your raw and brutal input is not acceptable when directed at another person.”
O: Thus far at least three lady commenters have taken a differing view, Ms. Walsh. References available upon request.
Moreover – I made no comments or statements about anyone’s personal life, or their potential, or how they were or were not stupid, or their character; however, these and more comments have been made about me, by Ms. Sassy and Ms. J, with nary a mumbling word from you. Now, I’m more than cool to let it ride, but when you go to hitting the button on me when I haven’t said anything close, then I got to point out the inconsistency. I will continue to do so.
“No one is assessing your SMV or predicting your future. Criticism of you has been restricted to your behavior here, and I’m asking you to do the same.”
O: Nonsense, nothing could be further from the truth; see above wrt Ms. J and Ms. Sassy. I can get the exact quotes if you like. My pic is up for anyone to opine, anytime they wish (I note with a good degree of interest, that no such attendant pics are up of all these ostensible “9s” in the forum – hmm). Not that I’m looking but thus far, and on at least three different sites, I’ve gotten positive pictoral assessments from ladies, both White and Black, though again, I wasn’t looking. *shrugs*
“If you don’t, I’ll delete it. My call.”
O: As is my right to call you on it – and by all accounts I’m not alone.
“FWIW, other black women have reported that black women dating out makes him crazy. I don’t know if that is true or not, and he’ll deny he cares. But if he is preoccupied with you for that reason, he won’t relent. Don’t take the bait.”
O: LOL. You ladies just can’t resist going ad hominem, hmm? I’ve already addressed this fallacious assertion last month, but here’s another refutation of the charges:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/bwe-black-womens-empowerment/
I quote:
“BWE is driven by internalized racism. Opening up to dating men outside your race is one thing, but if you have to put down men of your own race to do it, something is seriously wrong. I doubt many black women, for example, would feel comfortable dating any man who puts down the women of his own race. He would rightly be seen as someone with Issues who is best avoided. Likewise BWE women. It is Sergeant Willie Pete all over again.”
- Julian Abagond
To the extent that I’m “crazy” about the socalled BWE issue, it has to do with what Mr. Abagond has noted above.
(On the “Manwhore’ Charge): “Agreed, he is well positioned for STRs. He has reduced his MMV, which is unlikely to concern him, so the manwhore doesn’t have anything to lose. The women who steer clear of him are incompatible with is life goals in any case.”
O: Again, not only I but quite a few of your Male participants of the forum have a hard time seeing much realworld evidence that such a “Manwhore” actually takes a hit on the open dating/mating market. To date, you and other lady commenters have yet to present any. We continue to wait patiently for same.
“This is not Fight Club. We don’t do hits here. Keep it civil, you’re spoiling for a fight and I don’t want it here.”
O: I am civil with everyone; I tell the truth to all.
Get well soon!
O.
@Iggles
I think were still on similar pages, lol. Differing outlooks on important things can negatively impact a relationship. Since my views on sex are something that matter to me greatly, were going to have to be on the same page. Period. I’m not going to put up with you and your promiscuous ass. Im not saying men should necessarily care about my opinion since Im in the minority on this issue, but women like me, you, Sassy and a few others definitely exist and they better hope they don’t develop feelings for a woman who feels this way.
“Stop snowflaking”.
Thats what I’ve read from quite a few game bloggers in the ‘sphere when it comes to pre-selection. It does nothing for me either. No, Im not just denying it to be different, Im being honest. I would actually be more turned off if I noticed you surrounded by women. I’d think you were a player/cad, had the potential to be surrounded by drama filled girls, and was someone that needed to be competed for. No thank you.
@Ms. Charm #1274:
“Thats what I’ve read from quite a few game bloggers in the ‘sphere when it comes to pre-selection.”
O: May I kindly ask you exactly WHO these “game bloggers in the ‘sphere” you are referring to? I’d like names, and if at all possible, quotes/links, please.
Thanks!
O.
J, I’m not sure if you are overly perceptive or presumptuous… I’m not poly in the full-blown sense Ozy is. My N is low single digit, I just have some occasional poly experience. Still married and happily so, it doesn’t mean we are broken, or can’t have a good family life with children.
@HanSolo
I had seen all your comments. I’m interested on other things and I plan to answer you in due time. Don’t despair
This is the most dangerous thing you can do to a person and I’d imagine it is very dangerous to do to someone who you don’t know very well (since this is probably just a hookup).
My little brother was trying to teach me some self defense techniques once and he told me “When a man grabs your neck…” he proceed to grab it to show me and I passed out right there. He though I was joking but then got worried shit about me passing out as such a level for a merely touch. I told him after that there is no need to teach me what to do if a man grabs me by the neck because whatever he wants from me he will have it I will be in no position to fight him back. So yeah surprise choking = dangerous, YMMV.
@HanSolo
Thanks, I was aware of that. I think it’s further evidence of the split in the college population. A small percentage is doing a lot of hooking up, and the small number of relationships mostly come out of those hookups. Meanwhile, everyone else believes they’re out in the cold alone. The vast majority of students is not enjoying the company of the opposite sex in college, which is delaying sex in general for them. 24% of college seniors of both sexes are virgins – that’s a very high number compared to the past, and it reflects the decrease in assortative mating.
Just1X was in fine form today.
@Ms. Walsh #1277:
“Thanks, I was aware of that. I think it’s further evidence of the split in the college population. A small percentage is doing a lot of hooking up, and the small number of relationships mostly come out of those hookups. Meanwhile, everyone else believes they’re out in the cold alone. The vast majority of students is not enjoying the company of the opposite sex in college, which is delaying sex in general for them. 24% of college seniors of both sexes are virgins – that’s a very high number compared to the past, and it reflects the decrease in assortative mating.”
O: Ms. Walsh, this is some very interesting information, especially in light of what Charles Murray presents in his book Coming Apart. Per that, he notes that the class to which these virgins belong, DO indeed wind up eventually pairing off, getting married and staying that way. How do you reconcile all of this, and what is happening between the time these young people are in college and the altar that Murray is talking about? Please explain?
Thanks!
O.
@Obsidian
Haha, I know Buss in your man but he’s not the only evo psychologist around. He’s getting old
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/faculty/barrett/snyder%20et%20al%202008.pdf
The word virgin nearly always refers to P in V when discussing hetero sex. Some studies that discuss sexual partners include anal and oral, but when young people talk about N, they are definitely referring to intercourse.
People should have every right to watch as much porn as they wish. The fact is that it has resulted in a sharp rise in sexual dysfunction among men, especially young men, who frequently seek Viagra. My BFF who is head of student health at a nearby university says that ED complaints from male undergrads is the most common reason for guy’s making appointments related to sex. She always asks about porn, they always wind up confessing to watching massive amounts of it. The cure is going cold turkey until the brains resets. You’ve literally got to train the synapses to fire differently again, and that can only happen when the male is able to “forget” the visual images burned into his brain from porn. It’s a very, very serious problem among young men.
I guess the moral of the story is everything in moderation?
In any case, it is clear that the “hot” sex practices come from porn. Since porn went online, the first trend was the removal of female pubic hair. This was followed by the money shot of cumming on the woman’s face, and the newest fad is choking.
Good catch Iggles!
@Abbot
Abbot, you’re out of line, that’s Jackie and she is a virgin. She was totally in earnest when she asked for prude support. She ended an engagement when she learned her fiance cheated on her, and has found it a real challenge to find a man who doesn’t walk away from her chastity. Jackie needs all our love and support
@Jackie
Thanks for the RICE recipe – I found that Friday when I googled sprain vs. break. I still think it’s sprained, but I have the worst cankle and my whole foot and ankle are purple. I feel like Frankenstein. OTOH, Mr. HUS has gladly taken over all dog walks, driving, meal prep, etc. He even just delivered a glass of white wine to my night table
They lack the sophistamacated sense of humour of J and me (think mink), in fact any sense of humour whatsoever (barring violence to men).
Extremists always lack humor.
@Ms. Walsh #1280:
LOL. Well, Buss may be getting old, but to date he’s still the standard bearer of the field, and he’s literally written the book on the matter, so…
On page 130-131, Buss talks about how Women must “split the difference” between Alpha and Beta traits, and do indeed select for Beta traits in a long term context. However, we both know what Women desire during the most fertile part of her monthly cycle, and Beta ain’t it.
Moreover, on page 373, Buss discusses an interesting study done over time with a bunch of West Point cadets; those who had the more “hypermasculine features” were the ones who achieved higher rank and other promotions, were more sexually successful with Women, and had more sexual partners overall than the cadets who had “softer” facial features; those cadets also had lower status.
This is a major area of concern for Men as I am sure you well know. Women may not prefer “Daniel Craig” all the time, but the time(s) they DO want him tend to be the most important – and then switch back to Mr. Beta to mop up…
O.
When asking me about my sexual activity, my primary care physician told me that she hears routinely from women frustrated by their husbands’ low sex drives. I was very surprised by that.
@Jackie
Intriguing…how so?
@Ms. Walsh, Ms. Iggles:
“Ha! So ironic that the orbiter has a higher success rate than hooking up and hoping it leads to a relationship! (Only happens 12% of the time!)”
“Good catch Iggles!”
O: Before the cheering starts ladies, let’s make something clear: the (Beta) Orbiter Strategy isn’t so much about “getting a relationship” as much as it is getting SEX from the female friend in question. Moreover, vitually NO female friends have ANY sexual feelings for the orbiters. So, while technically, this strategy may have a higher success rate than the “female hookup strategy”, in reality the former is hardly worth the trouble, although I do admit that it *does* work from time to time. Just not anywhere near what would really make it worthwhile. Which explains why Game doesn’t advocate it (AFCism).
Being a Woman’s “friend” is a massive timesuck for a guy.
O.
J, I’m not sure if you are overly perceptive or presumptuous…
Gosh I hope neither. You’d just thrown out some hints. While I had the impression that something more than monogamy was going on, I hadn’t really formed a clear impression of just what and frankly I didn’t give it that much thought.
I’m not poly in the full-blown sense Ozy is. My N is low single digit, I just have some occasional poly experience. Still married and happily so, it doesn’t mean we are broken, or can’t have a good family life with children.
OK. I hadn’t assumed you were broken or had a bad family life, but it’s good that things are fine.
When asking me about my sexual activity, my primary care physician told me that she hears routinely from women frustrated by their husbands’ low sex drives. I was very surprised by that.
At the risk of pointing out the politically incorrect, it may not just be about poor health, “impotence”, or low sex drives. It wouldn’t surprise me that at least one component is in some of these situations you have women who have let themselves go to the point where they are no longer sexually appealing and essentially can’t pass the boner test.
In baseball, there is something called the Mendoza line:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendoza_Line
It is essentially the cutoff point where a player sucks so bad offensively that even with great defensive skills he is a net liability.
I think there is something I’ll call the “boner-porn” line where physical attractiveness drops to a point where real physical sex is less appealing than rubbing one out to a virtual hottie. That may be very unpleasant to here, but I suspect in many cases of male “low sex drive” and “impotence” you’ve got something else going on.
OTC, can you e-mail me? I know I had your e-mail address, but I can’t find it.
@Obsidian
I wouldn’t allow anyone to criticize your appearance here. But I would be very interested to see any comments that assessed your SMV by women here.
Please distinguish between short and long-term mating. Evo psych’s clearly recognize that people are oriented more toward one or the other based on personality traits – evidenced by their scores on the Sociosexual Index.
My point is that manwhores make lousy husbands and fathers, and I’ve written about one study that showed a man’s likelihood of being sexually satisfied in marriage drops 5% for every premarital partner. Promiscuous men are changed by their behavior – and ruined for monogamy. For most, this will be of little concern.
And I will delete the “truths” that amount to personal attacks. You’ll claim that these are “hard truths” women just don’t want to hear. In my experience “tough love” can only work when delivered by a source who the recipient trusts to have their best interests at heart. That is not the case here.
———————————————————————————
when I began to read this I didn think it was going to be about men doing the withholding. I have ever heard of that.
then susan says
When asking me about my sexual activity, my primary care physician told me that
she hears routinely from women frustrated by their husbands’ low sex drives. I
was very surprised by that.
Again, ,,,shocked. Low sex drives in men? Something is going on here. Sex gets better and better the longer you are married–I dont get it.
@Ms. Walsh #1288:
“When asking me about my sexual activity, my primary care physician told me that she hears routinely from women frustrated by their husbands’ low sex drives. I was very surprised by that.”
O: I’m not; how do these Women look?
Ms. Walsh #1282:
“People should have every right to watch as much porn as they wish. The fact is that it has resulted in a sharp rise in sexual dysfunction among men, especially young men, who frequently seek Viagra. My BFF who is head of student health at a nearby university says that ED complaints from male undergrads is the most common reason for guy’s making appointments related to sex. She always asks about porn, they always wind up confessing to watching massive amounts of it. The cure is going cold turkey until the brains resets. You’ve literally got to train the synapses to fire differently again, and that can only happen when the male is able to “forget” the visual images burned into his brain from porn. It’s a very, very serious problem among young men.
I guess the moral of the story is everything in moderation?
In any case, it is clear that the “hot” sex practices come from porn. Since porn went online, the first trend was the removal of female pubic hair. This was followed by the money shot of cumming on the woman’s face, and the newest fad is choking.”
O: Well, we can find sex tapes and the like featuring both “facials” and as well more kinkier sex acts going back as far as at least the early-to-mid 1970s, so we have documented cineamatic evidence that these practices are in no way new.
Still, what you say about Men being overstimulated via Porn, which is really a proxy for the visual aspect of a Man’s sexual triggers, is indeed well documented; again, Buss discusses all this in his books, as I am sure you well know.
I wanted to ask you, in light of that, the following: is it possible for Women to have “overdosed” on *their sexual triggers*? For example, has there been anything done on the potential effects of say, “50 Shades of Grey”, or “Twilight”? Per Ogas’ A Billion Wicked Thoughts, we know how much “chick porn” (read:romance/erotica literature) stimulates Women, and *influences them* as well. Yet, the only cultural “discussion” seems to remain on what guys do/watch, which is Porn, etc. Why do you think this is, do you think it matters and how, and are you aware of any scientific literature that has studied this; if not, why do you think that is?
Thanks!
O.
When asking me about my sexual activity, my primary care physician told me that she hears routinely from women frustrated by their husbands’ low sex drives. I was very surprised by that.
Huh? Women in Boston must complain less than the women I know.
Srsly though, a lot of women our age aren’t getting any for various reasons. And a lot are. There’s a clear line of demarcation between the “haves” and “have nots” at our age. I think there’s some luck of the draw involved in whether or not a woman our age is sexually active. Sure, some of us shut down after menopause, but others are willing but stuck with a man who has diabetes, a bad heart or a mistress.
@Mike C
I know few women who have really let themselves go. They women in my neighborhoodhood tend to exercise, dress well, have their hair and nails done, etc. Of course, we all get older, but most of my peers look good for their ages.
It’s not snark BTW to say that some men do slow up as they age. Health issues develop, T levels drop, job stresses catch up to people. It’s just an unfortunate fact of life. Women also sometimes slow down.
@Ms. Walsh #1294:
“I wouldn’t allow anyone to criticize your appearance here. But I would be very interested to see any comments that assessed your SMV by women here.”
O: Consider this post by me to be a signed release form in this regard; I have no problem in the least with ANY of your female readers giving me any such assessment based on what they see in the pic above or any other metric(s) they so choose; fire away! Let it stand as an example to those who are a bit more gunshy.
“Please distinguish between short and long-term mating. Evo psych’s clearly recognize that people are oriented more toward one or the other based on personality traits – evidenced by their scores on the Sociosexual Index.”
O: I think its fair to say that as far as the Men in this forum are concerned, it is a distinction without much of a difference – in the end, the guy’s getting sex and there is scant evidence that his “reputation” takes a hit for it. Unless you can provide some evidence that it indeed does…?
“My point is that manwhores make lousy husbands and fathers, and I’ve written about one study that showed a man’s likelihood of being sexually satisfied in marriage drops 5% for every premarital partner. Promiscuous men are changed by their behavior – and ruined for monogamy. For most, this will be of little concern.”
O: As is the case again, with the majority of your male readers; again, please demonstrate that the Men you discuss actually take a hit to their reputations sexually? I’ll wait…
“And I will delete the “truths” that amount to personal attacks. You’ll claim that these are “hard truths” women just don’t want to hear.”
O: The truth does not depend on whether I or anyone else “wants” to “hear it” or not; desire to “hear it” do not change the truth. It is, what it is.
“In my experience “tough love” can only work when delivered by a source who the recipient trusts to have their best interests at heart.”
O: Do military recruits honestly believe their DIs have their best interests at heart? Do they honestly believe that these DIs are coming at them in the spirit of “tough love”? How many people loathed their professors and the like in school? Come on. Remember me saying that the best thing that can happen to a Man is getting nuked by a Woman? I meant that. It either makes or breaks him; he must choose which it will be.
“That is not the case here.”
O: Then you can please explain why Ms. Scoot, Ms. Belitta and even Ms. Jackie all seem to disagree with you based on their comments in this regard?
O.
J,
I’m genuinely curious about something given the level of your participation in SMP discussions, and the totality of your commentary and my sense of your positions. I figure your moniker keeps you anonymous enough, but I’ll understand if you want to take a pass.
I believe you have mentioned either having a son or more than one son. What particular advice have you offered them on navigating the SMP and being successful. And I mean beyond stuff like “be safe and don’t get a girl pregnant”. I’m talking more about this is how you should talk to girl to be attractive. And how successful have they been to date? Are they able to attract women and actually date, or are they guys in the “dating desert”?
@Ms. J:
“Srsly though, a lot of women our age aren’t getting any for various reasons. And a lot are. There’s a clear line of demarcation between the “haves” and “have nots” at our age. I think there’s some luck of the draw involved in whether or not a woman our age is sexually active. Sure, some of us shut down after menopause, but others are willing but stuck with a man who has diabetes, a bad heart or a mistress.”
O: The problem is that we have scads of evidence that older guys have little to any problem sexually performing with that hot young chippie. Society tries to downplay the fact that more often than not Women can and do let themselves go, and it is indeed a major freakin’ issue for guys. When I was observing all the hoopla surrounding 50 Shades of Grey, I couldn’t help but notice all the Women standing online to get an autographed copy were middle aged and clearly a bit worse for wear ladies. These were the same ladies who making complaints about how their guys weren’t bringing it in the bedroom – well, no, if you’re looking like that. I’m just sayin’.
“I know few women who have really let themselves go. They women in my neighborhoodhood…”
O: The problem is, that your neighborhood is hardly representative of the country as a whole. For every lady you can present that is holding it together, any one of us guys can present five times as many Women who have indeed let themselves go. It’s a problem, and it’s time we stopped ducking and dodging the issue. The hotter the chick, the harder the…well, you know the rest.
O.
@Mike C
I know few women who have really let themselves go. They women in my neighborhoodhood tend to exercise, dress well, have their hair and nails done, etc. Of course, we all get older, but most of my peers look good for their ages.
Well…”good for their ages” is one standard. I’m not trying to be snarky either but I think women simply cannot comprehend the visual component to sexual stimulation. I’ll be blunt as I”m going by most of the women I see in the workplace. Just being honest…if it is question of sex with one of them or firing up a Tori Black video…I’m going with the Tori Black video. That said, as I’ve said before there is the real effect that a man sees a woman he loves through a different visual filter but even that has its limits. No doubt, male health issues can and do play a part, but the comments up to that point demonstrated an obliviousness to the fact that maybe that naked body just doesn’t elicit anything.
It’s not snark BTW to say that some men do slow up as they age. Health issues develop, T levels drop, job stresses catch up to people. It’s just an unfortunate fact of life. Women also sometimes slow down.
For sure. Stress and anxiety can be a huge factor, and T-levels take a huge nosedive in the 40s/50s. I’m 38 now, and I definitely plan on going on testosterone replacement at some age, probably when I notice my physical strength really start to diminish.
The fact is that it has resulted in a sharp rise in sexual dysfunction among men, especially young men, who frequently seek Viagra. My BFF who is head of student health at a nearby university says that ED complaints from male undergrads is the most common reason for guy’s making appointments related to sex.
You know I’m very weary of anything that blames media without looking at context or other elements at play.
For all the testimony of men “unlucky in love” here it seems that for a guy looking for some release it makes more sense to use porn than to risk rejection and shaming from real life girls. Porn is a sure thing.
I know you vow for uncertainty being an worth it element of gender interactions but I really don’t think is as exciting for everyone including guys, specially when you have to go home at the end trying to think why most women don’t give you the time a day, a pretty girl in a porn movie doesn’t treat you like crap…ever.
So it will be interesting if the guys that your BFF is seeing developing issues belongs to the promiscuous cohort (they get laid a lot) or the ones that only have porn available to soothe their needs, thus creating a habit. Again this is the same argument I have when men cry to heaven’s above that romance readers women are ruined for real relationships or when parents used to complain that comic books turned their kids on deviants (spits on floor at the Code). It only becomes a problem if the person has a problem already, don’t blame the media blame the brain, YMMV.
women do not find hypermasculine faces attractive (Perrett et al.,1998), although they generally prefer more masculine faces (a trait associated with dominance) during the most fertile phase of the menstrual cycle
Interesting. Roissy makes a lot of these studies.
On a personal level, I find the Neanderthal face that ovulating women are supposed to love to be sort repellent and always have, no matter where in my cycle I was. However, I’ve never liked pretty boys either. To me, the ideal male face has large, kind eyes but defined cheekbones, a strong jaw line and a dark, heavy beard–a nice mix of alpha and beta traits. (Think a younger DeNiro or Pacino.) While I like a fit-looking, well-muscled physique, I stop way short of finding football players or weightlifters attractive.
Sex gets better and better the longer you are married–I dont get it.
It often does, especially when people are healthy and the relationship is good.
@Ms. J:
“Interesting. Roissy makes a lot of these studies.”
O: Nonsense; credentialed evolutionay psychologists do these studies, madam.
“On a personal level, I find the Neanderthal face that ovulating women are supposed to love to be sort repellent and always have, no matter where in my cycle I was. However, I’ve never liked pretty boys either. To me, the ideal male face has large, kind eyes but defined cheekbones, a strong jaw line and a dark, heavy beard–a nice mix of alpha and beta traits. (Think a younger DeNiro or Pacino.) While I like a fit-looking, well-muscled physique, I stop way short of finding football players or weightlifters attractive.”
O: Which explains how Daniel “Cromagnon Man” Craig’s James Bond is the most financially successful Bond EVER…
O.
but the comments up to that point demonstrated an obliviousness to the fact that maybe that naked body just doesn’t elicit anything.
Well, I don’t spend a lot of naked time with the neighbors, so I can’t vouch for what they look like naked. I’m sure no one looks 18 anymore. OTOH, I don’t either, and I still “elict” something from my husband–to the point that it even amazes me. When I was younger, I didn’t expect to found desirable at my curent age. But I still garner attention, so I would surmise that other women my age would/could/should as well.
Well, I don’t spend a lot of naked time with the neighbors, so I can’t vouch for what they look like naked.
Pfft… Prude!
@ J:
This is why I find no appeal in ONS. In my mind, the longer you’re with someone, the better you know each others’ bodies and the better the sex is. IME, the first night doesn’t hold a candle to how it goes when you really know each other.
But then again, I know for some people the novelty discovering a new body is half the appeal. *shrugs* To each their own!
@ O:
NOPE.
Adjusted for inflation Thunderball was the most successful James Bond film, starring Sean Connery, coming in at $966,435,555.
Daniel Craig’s most successful Bond film was Casino Royale which made $640,803,677.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bond_in_film#Box_office_results
Well since Buss himself appears to be of two minds about this, I don’t think we’re going to agree. My own research supports the view that women who are already paired are not hypergamous in this way unless they perceive their partner as lacking in dominance. Since the rate of cuckoldry is only 2-3%, we can surmise that stepping out during ovulation is rare.
I agree with this, and would urge any who has been friendzoned to reject the friendship and walk away.
I expected that response, and I don’t know the women my PCP was referring to. However, I have three female friends who are unhappily celibate in marriage, and FWIW they are all slender, well dressed, wear makeup, get their hair done, etc. Their husbands are what I would call “stressed out.” IDK, maybe at 50 they are too old to pass the boner test, but they feel very much passed over. I’m very thankful I’m not in that boat. I can’t imagine anything more rejecting.
@ SW:
I’ve read about that! It’s kind of crazy the images we’re exposed to in popular culture can literally warp our brains!
I read another article about how the kids who spent hours a day playing video games are having a harder time learning in school. The formatting of lessons — sitting through lectures — is passive and they get easily bored. Their brains have been rewired and as a result are more receptive to learning lesson in an interactive format (say education games!).
Three reasons:
1. Female orgasm is always less reliable than male orgasm. It may be hard to differentiate between women who have gotten messed up due to too much female porn, i.e., romance novels, and women who are less orgasmic in general.
2. Men suffer sexual dysfunction in a very obvious way. The erection fails and it’s got to be dealt with. Is it me? Why did that happen? Here, let me give it my best shot….etc. Female sexual dysfunction is hidden.
3. Because men are so visual and porn is a visual medium, the link between porn and arousal seems especially strong for men.
Men are under much more pressure to perform sexually from an evo standpoint as well. Female orgasm may (or may not) be beneficial from a reproductive standpoint, but it’s essential for male success.
I don’t even want to imagine what it would be like to be sexually rejected by my husband. Boy, am I glad I am not in the passed over camp. I hope I have many more years of being chased (and of course, caught)
That would be a valid argument if the men were not letting themselves go. My husbands swims at 5:30 a.m. five days a week, and I don’t know a single other husband who works out at age 50-60. Not one.
If a stressed out, overweight guy with no interests can’t get it up for his wife I have zero sympathy for him. Take a look in the mirror buddy.
Most couples I see share a lifestyle and their SMVs seem to be about equal – if that’s not the case, then the high SMV partner may have a legitimate gripe. But the idea that women don’t pass the boner test with Fred Flintstone is laughable.
Except that most of the audience digging him is male…
Me too! I mean, the boner test? Yeah, passing that every day despite my advanced years and blogger’s ass.
@Iggles
I second Sean Connery as the sexiest Bond ever. He’s still sexy in his 70s. I think Daniel Craig is funny looking, but hey, to each his own.
I second Sean Connery as the sexiest Bond ever. He’s still sexy in his 70s. I think Daniel Craig is funny looking, but hey, to each his own.
No love for Roger Moore? Is there any child of the 80′s here that likes him best? I haz a sad
Daniel Craig….Meh! Sean Connery is the definitive Bond for me. Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan were too pretty for me. Craig is a little to Cro-Magnon.
@Ana #1308
LMAO
@Iggles
This is why I find no appeal in ONS. In my mind, the longer you’re with someone, the better you know each others’ bodies and the better the sex is.
I think this is generally true. At least, it’s been true for me thus far. I hope we both stay healthy though.
Nonsense; credentialed evolutionay psychologists do these studies, madam.
By “makes a lot of,” I mean “makes much of” or “makes a big deal out of.” I am aware that Roissy is not a creditialed psychologist who does actual research–unless by “research” we mean making pronouncements from whatever cubicle he now sits in since the nice folks at FINRA said, “Buh-bye, Jim.”
Also, Just for the record, while I have been employed in a few of the so-called “helping professions,” “madam” has not been one of them.
@ALL
After tonight I’ll be taking a break for a while. Going on a family vacation with DH and the “brood” I so cloying “brag on.” I’m hoping to have a “slobberingly” good time.
@SW
I’m very thankful I’m not in that boat. I can’t imagine anything more rejecting.
Me neither.
Mr Jen and I live out west (a recent move) and love being able to bike, ski, hike, etc to stay in shape. He plays hockey, and I am a runner. anyway being physically fit can only make sex even better. and when you can do fun physical stuff together, well, then you can do OTHER fun physical stuff together,,,,if you know what I mean
Me too! I mean, the boner test? Yeah, passing that every day despite my advanced years and blogger’s ass.
Yeah, the boner test! As in what gets rubbed on your butt as you try to brush your teeth in peace or what stops your male coworker from getting up from behind his desk immediately after you leave his office.
Who the hell would have guessed that sh*t still happens after 50? But I can’t say I’m disappointed.
And it’s good news for the young’uns too!
@ Charm:
Haha! True, that’s the response we’d get from the manosphere.
I agree with you, that a guy surrounded by women would turn me off. I’d wonder if they were a soft harem or something.
If all of the girls were his platonic friends I’d still be a bit leery to get involved with a guy who has more close female friends than close male ones, albeit for a host of other reasons. (Is he an orbiter for some of them? Do some of them have secret crushes on him? Are any of them Exes? If he genuinely prefers “hanging with the girls” over “chilling with the bros” due to shared interests and temperament, then I’d wonder how much in common does he have with them — i.e., does he have a more feminine nature than I’d be comfortable with in a romantic partner?)
Re: porn. I had a chance to review a paper in the last six months or so that probably will be published in a refereed journal soon. Some of you may be familiar with the fascinating book “Sperm Wars”, which describes how a male ejaculate blast actually contains three types of sperm athletes: “blockers” which will line the woman’s reproductive tract in an attempt to prevent another man from knocking her up; “killers” or “linebackers” which seek to destroy another man’s sperm (if present); and “runningbacks” that go for the gold (i.e., try to get the woman pregnant). Frequently the blocks and killers are referred to as “kamikaze sperm” in the evo psych literature.
There are all kinds of wild scenarios depicted in this book, some of which men will find to be the stuff of nightmares (i.e., a female strategy of creating a winner-takes-all test of genetic fitness in her own body by having sex with two different men in a short period of time and having their sperm fight it out). Some of the evidence cited is quite compelling in terms of framing aspects of the eternal alpha vs. beta debate.
Anyway, suffice to say there are various tests of sperm quality that include both the volume of ejaculate produced and its composition. It appears that fap-offs to porn are increasingly generating high-quality blasts, which *could* indicate that the male brain is adaptively responding to environmental stimuli, being trained, and increasingly seeing porn as a legitimate substitute for normal sex (porn studios are providing us with more interesting materials and we’re getting better at fapping). The line between real-life/face-to-face discussions and internet-based chats has already become quite blurry, so this development only makes sense.
We might speculate that there will be a point where a man who has a choice between, say, sex with an SMV 5 woman and a fap to a hot pornstar will be ambivalent in terms of preferences. In this example, an SMV 4 sex partner would be seen as inferior to a fap.
For women, there is good news and bad news here. The good news for non-casual sex enthusiasts is that the pressure to have sex may decrease in many situations because a satisfying pressure-relief valve is available to men. The bad news for those who saw their granting of sexual access as a strategic resource, negotiation lever, or agitation point is that they may find that porn has significantly changed the male appetite for barter.
@SW
My DH swims and bikes. I’m sure being generally healthy helps his libido.
But the idea that women don’t pass the boner test with Fred Flintstone is laughable.
It is, but I guess they are just wired that way. They are that visual and often really need visual stimulation to get turned on. The sad thing is that no young HB10 is going to be turned on by Fred Flinstone, no matter how much he is turned on by her. Nature is very unfair to men that way. That’s got to be difficult for them.
@Susan 1284-5
Thanks for the support, Susan!
It means a great deal to me– more than I can express. I *definitely* appreciate it!
Bellita and Sassy are probably the ones who is closest to my “needle in the haystack” situation, even though we are looking at very different markets. (Hopefully she and “James Franco” had an awesome date last night!)
Believe me, the Jezebel article didn’t make me happy. Quite the opposite! It struck me as unjust, but in the words of Sister S, “I never promised you a rose garden!”
I hope your ankle feels better soon! Sprains HURT– last year I fell on some ice while wearing high heels. ouchouchouchouchouchWhat a nice husband you have to help with stuff and bring white wine. You can make RICE into WRICE, keeping the R silent.
I expected that response, and I don’t know the women my PCP was referring to. However, I have three female friends who are unhappily celibate in marriage, and FWIW they are all slender, well dressed, wear makeup, get their hair done, etc. Their husbands are what I would call “stressed out.” IDK, maybe at 50 they are too old to pass the boner test, but they feel very much passed over. I’m very thankful I’m not in that boat. I can’t imagine anything more rejecting.
If a stressed out, overweight guy with no interests can’t get it up for his wife I have zero sympathy for him. Take a look in the mirror buddy.
Most couples I see share a lifestyle and their SMVs seem to be about equal – if that’s not the case, then the high SMV partner may have a legitimate gripe. But the idea that women don’t pass the boner test with Fred Flintstone is laughable.
Susan,
Let me be EMPHATICALLY CLEAR on this point. If a guy has let his SMV value slip, he has absolutely no justification whatsoever for complaining if his wife has let herself go.
That said. First, we know male SMV is much less impacted by visual physical appearance as male SMV is also influenced by status, dominance, personality traits, etc. So you don’t have an apples to apples comparison here. That’s NOT a justification for a guy letting his appearance go to shit.
Regarding the “boner test”, laughable or not, reality is reality is reality is reality. Getting an erection is not a voluntary choice. We sometimes deal in uncomfortable truths. From a evo/bio standpoint…really..this makes perfect sense. A woman who is 50+ is incapable of reproducing and bearing children. Shit, if you believe in evo at all…its really just common sense nature would have had men evolve to not be sexually attracted to women who can’t bear children. In contrast (and I’ll be counting down 3..2..1) for the pushback here, but a 50-year old man is perfectly capable of fathering children (although the sperm quality is probably somewhat diminished) .
I chimed in because it was interesting to me the previous comments of incredulity and wanting to pass it along to the guy..his health…his stress..whatever…except for the elephant in the room that the sexual attractiveness of the women we are talking about is probably much lower. That’s not a moral judgement, nothing about fair or not fair. It is simply a description of f”n reality as unpleasant as it may be.
I’ve often made this point, and you always push back on it, but I often think of human sexuality as designed by some sort of cosmic prankster intended to mess with people and laugh at them. Men were wired for variety and an inability to really exercise it. Women were wired to find only a small percentage of men really attractive, but only a minority can lock them down. Sexuality evolved for replication…not so all 50-70 year old couples could have fulfilling sex lives when reproduction is not possible.
And I’m not trying to pass it all off on women. Stress really can be a killer. I’ll be honest…I really don’t give a shit…I often can have problems on a Sunday night because of my anxiety about the work week starting (I hate my job with the passion of a thousand supernovas).
@Charm
Hey Charm, nice to see you back! Did you graduate — or are you doing an internship over summer break? International business, right?
Bastiat,
Just wanted to acknowledge that in this thread you have had multiple super high power comments full of serious intellectual meat and substantive analysis.
There are all kinds of wild scenarios depicted in this book, some of which men will find to be the stuff of nightmares (i.e., a female strategy of creating a winner-takes-all test of genetic fitness in her own body by having sex with two different men in a short period of time and having their sperm fight it out).
Here is something interesting I’ve noticed in my personal life. If DH and I have sex in the morning, a bunch of other old bucks will flock around me in the afternoon. Is that pre-selection, or do I become a walking invitation to a sperm war? Do I have a glow? Can men smell sex on you?
SW & Anacaona – I grew up with Pierce Brosnan as Bond, but I agree Connery owned the character
As for Daniel Craig..
He looks like a Neanderthal to me! I don’t find him attractive in the slightest. Quite the opposite!
J – Enjoy your vacation! Sounds like it will be a lovely time with the fam!
@ms walsh:
What does your or anyone elses husband have to do w/the price of rice? Even if what you say is true its irrelevant to the point being made by myself and mikec and indeed you validate it yourself buy throwing up a smokescreen: that there is such a thing as a wife who lets herself go. This is a crucial factor in why so many hubbies dont want to be bothered. Stop making excuses for this.
What we can surmise is that cuckoldry is NOT anywhere near rigorously studied or watched out for. The medical profession knows that the rates are a sight bigger than whats reported. Only by implementing things such as mandatory paternity testing will we have an inkling for sure-but of course women dont want thaaat…
Buss et al have proven that women can and will employ varying mating strategies when circumstances warrant. Just because a woman is monogamously mated today doesnt mean she will be forever. Women do indeed cheat and have affairs. They do this because like you said their mates lack dominance.
Craig is among the most popular bonds ever. Ill look up the numbers ms iggles put up for thunderball.
The major reason why female sexual trigger overstimulation isnt studied by evopsychs etc et al is due to a combo of white knightism and political correctness. It simply doesnt fit the narrative that things such as 50 shades of grey or twilight etc et al, coupled w/other things in our time could amount to very deleterious effects for women in their dealings with men. We are only now getting scientific info on what drives women sexually which was at least in part blocked by various corners.
O.
PS: dont slobber all over him too hard ms j…
@J
We will miss you. Have a wonderful time with your family. Vacations with the kids are some of my best memories and life highlights!
Anyway, suffice to say there are various tests of sperm quality that include both the volume of ejaculate produced and its composition. It appears that fap-offs to porn are increasingly generating high-quality blasts, which *could* indicate that the male brain is adaptively responding to environmental stimuli, being trained, and increasingly seeing porn as a legitimate substitute for normal sex (porn studios are providing us with more interesting materials and we’re getting better at fapping). The line between real-life/face-to-face discussions and internet-based chats has already become quite blurry, so this development only makes sense.
The irony here is that decades ago, one of the biggest criticisms of porn was that it was going to create a ton of “sex fiend” men running around raping women. The truth is probably 180 degrees around the other way and that it creates probably more men who don’t see pursuing women at all as worthwhile use of time.
We might speculate that there will be a point where a man who has a choice between, say, sex with an SMV 5 woman and a fap to a hot pornstar will be ambivalent in terms of preferences. In this example, an SMV 4 sex partner would be seen as inferior to a fap.
For women, there is good news and bad news here. The good news for non-casual sex enthusiasts is that the pressure to have sex may decrease in many situations because a satisfying pressure-relief valve is available to men.
I think you are right on this to an extent…except that I think for some guys there are “two components” ….there is the sexual satisfaction and the conquest aspect. Porn really isn’t a relief valve for the latter….but relationships minded women should be ruthlessly screening out for conquest type mentality.
The bad news for those who saw their granting of sexual access as a strategic resource, negotiation lever, or agitation point is that they may find that porn has significantly changed the male appetite for barter.
As I’ve been saying since Day 1 though, the incentive there is for a woman to develop attractive relationship qualities beyond “sexual access”
I truly believe that men let themselves go more often than women do. For example, a higher percentage of men are obese. I’m just offering anecdotal evidence, but in my circle of acquaintances, the women are considerably better preserved than the men. Just saying.
What is your support for this claim?
I don’t even know what this means, but it sounds like you’re accusing Buss and others of dishonesty. I vehemently disagree. Evolutionary psychologists do their work knowing that feminists will push back hard on every study.
@Susan (#1289)
“(BTW, from a religious viewpoint, Abbot and “sluts” are on the exact same moral ground. Take it up with a priest if you don’t believe me!)
Intriguing…how so?”
============
Well, what I learned: Fornication is fornication. They are equally culpable.
The situation Abbot mentioned –namely, advocating having casual sex then lying about his name and address, to avoid child support– he actually comes off worse than the “slut.” Because he is not only seeking to deceive the woman (who is also trying to somehow hijack his sperm to have a child, I think?), he is advocating that other men should be deceivers as well. This is a sin not only against the theology of the body, but against his child, by finagling a way out of supporting his future son or daughter.
I am just as much of a sinner as Abbot, or anyone else. Maybe chastity isn’t my issue (although it’s not much fun!) but believe me, my confessor hears a LOT. The point is, we can always repent, ask for forgiveness and try to do better. Any time, any place– phone lines are open, Operator is standing by.
Interestingly, there is a very good story about this– just google Luke 8:9-14. I think about this passage often when I read some manosphere blogs. If a promiscuous person sincerely repents, God hears their prayer. Bloggers who disagree should take it up with the Almighty.
. Is that pre-selection, or do I become a walking invitation to a sperm war? Do I have a glow? Can men smell sex on you?
I do think being sexually active makes you more attractive to men somehow maybe because if you say yes to one guy you might say yes to another, or it awakens their competition trait and some people have some poaching instinct. All my single friends report that after starting having sex/getting married they had twice as many men interested, which is very ironic, specially for the perpetually single ones that were lucky to snag a guy to begin with…
I’ve often made this point, and you always push back on it, but I often think of human sexuality as designed by some sort of cosmic prankster intended to mess with people and laugh at them. Men were wired for variety and an inability to really exercise it. Women were wired to find only a small percentage of men really attractive, but only a minority can lock them down.
Whether God has a sick sense of humor or there is an advantage on the difficulty that we haven’t figured out yet. I mean maybe homogeneous couples couldn’t get the best genes and died out in huge numbers, the same for strictly monogamous people, in an environment were your partner can die any second not reproducing because you are attached to it is a waste, Makes more sense to pair off with the instinct to trade up for younger/higher status if the opportunity arise, but then we also have the instinct to help put a mate even if she gets sick or injured just to keep reproducing so there most be something more there that we don’t know yet and we are missing out, YMMV.
@ Jackie
Thanks! He and I went out for drinks with a few of his friends at a quaint coffeehouse on Friday night. I had a great time.
I actually got back home a few hours ago today after going on my second date with him. He and I went swimming, had dinner, and went for a walk through the neighborhood.
I took Susan’s and other people’s ideas to heart about going on cheap activity dates. We went to the pool at a place that I’m a member, so he didn’t have to pay anything. Walking through the neighborhood is cost free, and we went to a local restaurant with very decent prices.
I tried to show him that I cared in little ways as well. It’s kind of cheesy, but I remembered that he wears contacts, which I do as well. I brought a second contact case along with me to the pool so that he wouldn’t have to leave his contacts in. He seemed glad that I remembered, and he also surprised me by bringing two drinks with him for us to enjoy.
We’ll see how things go from here.
@Obsidian (#1299)
“O: Then you can please explain why Ms. Scoot, Ms. Belitta and even Ms. Jackie all seem to disagree with you based on their comments in this regard?”
====
Hey Obsidian,
To clarify, I advocated tact, self-awareness and “telling the truth in love” for you. In my experience, those who have told the truth to me from a place of compassion and empathy made me not only change the fastest– they made me WANT to change! I really think men and women are different in this aspect, although it is only my experience and opinion.
Those who are “brutally honest”– with an emphasis on the brutality– were the ones who made me feel the most resistant to change, by the way. Just my 0.02.
@Sassy (#1340)
Way to go, Sassy! *high five*
Keep us posted
@Ana
“Whether God has a sick sense of humor or there is an advantage on the difficulty that we haven’t figured out yet.”
You know, nothing that is easily attained is really valued. Look at all the stuff we get for free and treat like crap! (Our bodies, the environment, etc)
If, somehow by a miracle, I get my “needle in the haystack” you better believe that I am going to be best, most appreciative wife I can possibly be. (Hopefully married to someone who feels the same way!)
@The Great Bond Debate
Couldn’t all be united if Idris Elba (Stringer Bell from “The Wire”) became the next James Bond? Think about it.
Thanks everyone for the good wishes!
Obs, let’s let DH decide how hard he wants to be slobbered on.
@Han Solo, Fellow Austenite (#811)
“I rarely comment but I love Sense & Sensibility. So we see you love Brandon and despise Willoughby. What do you think of Edward Ferrars and the two sisters? Do you relate to either of the sisters?”
HS, I probably would have been fooled by W, just as Marianne and Mrs. Dashwood were in the beginning. It’s only the omniscient viewpoint that allows me to see W. for the cad he is and allows me to despise his behavior.
As to E. Ferrars– Sadly, I was disappointed by the Hugh Grant portayal– he seemed to be so mealy-mouthed! (Although, considering his dragon of a mother, loss of a father and sensitive disposition, it’s more than understandable. Hmm, this definitely makes me want to be kinder to some men I know.
)
But wouldn’t you agree, Han, that Willougby’s cracks and chinks in the armor definitely start to show where he is snarking on people and propriety, in the picnic scene with Marianne and her family? I thought it was a great way of foreshadowing his “synthethic Alpha” nature. He pays lip-service in public, but in private, his pettiness and lack of generosity really shows how small (and weak, IMHO) he is.
Have you seen the BBC mini-series, where EF is Dan Steven (lately of Downton Abbey)? His portrayal, it seems to me, is a better fit the character of the friendly village vicar trapped in an awful family.
As to the Jennings’! They are, in the words of my beloved father, best appreciated at some distance! For me, the scene where they are “grilling” Elinor about Mr. F, the “key of F major,” etc is *excruciating*! I am mortified by osmosis through the screen!! Imagine how uncomfortable it would be– especially for someone so *internal* as Elinor!
By the way, my sister got me a copy of S&S. She is definitely an Elinor; and I Marianne. May she find her E. Ferrars and may we all avoid the cunningly covetous Lucy Steeles!
(By the way: The first time my sister showed me the movie, I had never read the book. I just about wept tears of joy for Elinor when she realizes that Edward was not bound to that chav-tastic Lucy and was free to love Elinor. Huzzah!)
@J
Hi J!
Have a good vacation! We will miss you and your comments *heaps*
Make sure you pack:
*Knitting
*Slobber
*A journal to notate things to “brag on” upon your return
I know Obsidian would have reminded you, though. Hee hee!
If, somehow by a miracle, I get my “needle in the haystack” you better believe that I am going to be best, most appreciative wife I can possibly be. (Hopefully married to someone who feels the same way!)
That is the spirit girl!
Once you find him keep him locked in the “jail of your skin” The video is very 80′s and in Spanish but the lyrics are very…romantic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNGZ_44rcI
@Obsidian
Lol, I will full on admit that I cannot name names. I’ve been sitting here for a while thinking if I could recall a few, but I can’t. I was scouring tons of blogrolls and reading everything I could get my hands on (both good and a lot of bad) back when I learned about things like pre-selection and I wasn’t keeping track of names (mainly because I didn’t care to). So, maybe I should have said “within the sphere” rather than “game bloggers” since I can’t be more specific. Anywho, back when I did do a lot of reading on pre-selection, I read quite a few comments and posts about how it worked on women and that anyone who claimed it didn’t was a snowflaker. Now, I understand the concept, and I know that a lot of women are out of touch with their attraction triggers and will claim to be the one girl that X,Y and Z doesn’t work on, but I looked at my behavior (both past a present) objectively and determined that it does nothing for me.
Get well soon, Susan!
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