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I Didn’t Mean to Blow Up Your Spot

This morning I heard from a mildly panicked reader when she realized I had featured her story in my last post on examples of women successfully escalating emotionally with guys they’re dating. In this case, the problem is that she first learned of HUS from her guy – and she’s worried he will immediately recognize the story and perhaps think her calculating rather than earnest in her intentions. I’ve taken down the post, at least for now.

While HUS is far from required reading for young singles, this kind of thing has been happening more and more recently. Increasingly, people writing for advice request that the story not be shared at all, lest the other party read it and recognize it. Obviously, changing names is not sufficient when both halves of a couple or friend groups are reading here. The last thing I want to do is harm a relationship by causing weirdness or misunderstanding between two people!

I guess I’ll have to either seek permission or disguise stories so thoroughly they won’t trigger recognition in a reader. The latter is tricky – I regularly am approached by young people I know in real life who suspect that a post is about them. It never is. 

This reminds me of a funny story Lena Dunham shared in an interview with Bill Simmons. Dunham said that the character Adam is based on someone from her past, and that she wondered what he might think of the show. She didn’t hear a word from him until the season was about half over. One day she got a text from him asking her the name of a restaurant they used to like. No mention of Girls whatsoever – she doesn’t even know if he’s aware of it. That sounds exactly like Adam Sackler, doesn’t it?

Meanwhile, there was a guy Dunham “dated” when she first got to Oberlin. She acknowledges in the interview that “date” is a euphemism, considering both the nature of their activities and the short duration of their “relationship.” A couple of months ago he wrote her to say he knew right away that he had been the inspiration for Adam and that their relationship was perfect for Girls, she had his permission to use it. She hadn’t thought of this guy in eight years, had forgotten him completely in fact. What a knucklehead.

I’ll try and pop up another post before the holiday tomorrow.

One Pingback/Trackback

  • Emily

    Now that you mention it, I think I’ll go back and edit some of my old forum posts. I’m already using a pseudonym, but it’s better to be safe than sorry. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      Absolutely. If you have a single nagging doubt about something you’ve said, get rid of it.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    OT,

    I tried making a few posts in the “concealment” thread, and they haven’t showed up. Not sure if they’re in moderation, or if something’s wrong with my connection, or if it’s something else. Just a heads up.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “If you have a single nagging doubt about something you’ve said, get rid of it.”

    LOL. Can you just delete everything I’ve ever posted? Just kidding, but this is a good point to bring up.

    For the longest time I did my best to keep my ‘sphere posting separate from my “real” life. But, I have you and a few other bloggers added in Twitter, and even one or two on Facebook (although I DO NOT discuss ‘sphere stuff on FB at all. The people I added from the ‘sphere share other common interests) My SO knows I blog about this stuff, so I don’t worry about her finding HUS and getting angry. But, I do sometimes worry that someone I piss off might come looking to cause trouble. I think most people realize there is a lot of huffing and puffing online, but when things are face to face they tend to be much more civil. All it takes is one slightly unhinged person to make it personal, and things could get messy very quickly. In fact, part of why I don’t comment on other ‘sphere blogs is because I suspect some of the “regulars” there are indeed a bit unhinged. Not all or even most of them, but like I said it only takes one.

  • Emily

    Haha yeah, I think this holds very true:

    http://www.ratemyfunnypictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/real-life-vs-the-internet.jpg

    I’ve often wondered what it would be like to randomly run into a HUS poster in real life. Like, if I were to walk into a Starbucks and catch somebody writing a comment on their laptop or something. :)

    I’ve told my boyfriend a bit about the concepts I’ve read about in manosphere blogs etc., but tbh, I think he thinks it’s a bit weird. : P

  • Ramble

    Susan, maybe you can post another one similar to the deleted post after you get permission from the known parties. It was a very good article on an important subject.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, maybe you can post another one similar to the deleted post after you get permission from the known parties. It was a very good article on an important subject.

      I hope to do that. I need to chase down ten people though… :(

      I may have to rework it a bit, but I’m confident I can write something that still gets the point across. I just really like using true stories, it seems lame to change the facts around.

  • Esau

    and she’s worried he will immediately recognize the story and perhaps think her calculating rather than earnest in her intentions.

    Umm, what’s the difference between earnest and calculating? Can’t one earnestly calculate? If what she’s trying to have happen is something that he also wants and would enjoy, then I can’t see why having the “tactical” element being revealed should be at all harmful. If, on the other hand, she’s trying somehow to accomplish something that’s to his detriment, trying to fool him or take advantage of him, then it doesn’t seem like she deserves much consideration. Either way, I can’t really see the sense here; just one man’s opinion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      Umm, what’s the difference between earnest and calculating?

      She read the first post on emotionally escalating and resolved to be sensitive to that with a guy she had just met if it went anywhere. When something came up, she went out of her way to accomodate him in a generous way. He responded very positively. It was organic, but she made the connection to the post and wrote me to tell me about it.

      Since he reads here, she would feel embarrassed if he read the story for a couple of reasons. First, he might wonder why she wrote in to trumpet this “success” when it really wasn’t a big deal. Second, she was afraid it might come across like The Rules. HUS tells me how to get a guy so now I’m deploying those tactics – in truth, there is an element of that, but it’s not about getting “a guy,” she wants to get him. Only a month in, she’s a bit hesitant to have him know all of this – it magnifies her vulnerability – or at least that’s how she seems to feel.

      Mostly I think she would be super embarrassed if he read it and mentioned it to her.

  • Ted D

    Emily – I’ve actually said before that as much as I generally am antisocial, I’d do my best to make a HUS gathering if one ever happened. One thing I like about communication on the ‘net is it goes right past all the social stuff I dislike and straight to hashing crap out, which is how I like to “get to know” a person. I know it is rather adversarial, but I tend to debate/argue with people as part of my “get to know you” phase. To me, there is a lot to be learned by how a person debates and how they react to contrary viewpoints. I also tend to “test” people’s resolve on occasion, which is to say when I find something they are steadfast about, I often pick at the subject with them a bit to see if they flip-flop or if they stick to their guns. I’m not as good online as I am in person because I’m a lazy typist, but I really give people a run for their money on occasion.

    Anyway, what I’m getting at is although I’ve never met anyone from HUS in person, I feel like I have a good bead on many of the regulars, and honestly I’d be very interested in meeting most of them. I keep asking DogSquat when he’s coming back to the ‘Burgh to visit so we can meet up and I can buy him a beer or three. I know the chances are slim to none since HUS regulars are from all over the world, but for my part IF a meeting ever happens, I’ll do my best to make it. Even if Susan has it in Boston. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I’d do my best to make a HUS gathering if one ever happened.

      Another reader just said the same thing to me in an email. It really would be great fun. It does seem unlikely, but you never know. As I told him, I picture it as sort of a Big Chill weekend, without the sperm donation.

  • camal s afad

    The offending article is still in google reader.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @camal

      The offending article is still in google reader.

      Oh, thanks, I haven’t dealt with this before. I will look into that asap.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    That’s too bad. It was a really good post and discussion! In my opinion acts of emotional escalation are not calculation or manipulation. It’s genuine if you feel it.

    I used to be a contributor to the Girl Game blog that has since become inactive, and my husband knew about it. He just chuckled and thought it was amusing.

    Most guys would be flattered that a girl is thinking of all sorts of ways to win him over and make him happy. Only the most cold-hearted of men would not melt knowing a girl is trying so hard just for him.

  • Ted D

    “The offending article is still in google reader.”

    Susan – I just checked and I see it there as well. I don’t know if you can pull it since Google Reader can be set to cache for offline reading. After I refreshed it cleared, but everyone that subscribes to your feed will have it.

    I think your young woman will be fine. If I found my SO online trying to figure out how to make me happy, it would just make me love her more. Women on the other hand don’t seem to take it the same way in general. I would be willing to bet a small sum that between a man and a woman finding their SO on HUS getting tips, the women would be more likely to be upset. Not much money though, because I’m a VERY bad loser. I’ve already decided to keep my gambling in Vegas to nickel slots. :-P

  • Ted D

    “Most guys would be flattered that a girl is thinking of all sorts of ways to win him over and make him happy. Only the most cold-hearted of men would not melt knowing a girl is trying so hard just for him.”

    And… Hope beat me to it.

  • lm

    “Umm, what’s the difference between earnest and calculating? Can’t one earnestly calculate? If what she’s trying to have happen is something that he also wants and would enjoy, then I can’t see why having the “tactical” element being revealed should be at all harmful. If, on the other hand, she’s trying somehow to accomplish something that’s to his detriment, trying to fool him or take advantage of him, then it doesn’t seem like she deserves much consideration. “

    @Esau –

    If you read this blog at all and haven’t come up with at minimum twenty or thirty situations where a woman says “I was being earnest!” and one of the male commenters here practically shouts back the argumentative equivalent of “NO! You were being CALCULATING! Waaaaahhh!” in the comments to the first five posts you read, then for my money your reading comprehension could use a tweak or two or three.

    (Kinda like the conclusions *you* jumped to in your last “guess” about the OP, you know?)

    Men misinterpret women’s intentions all the time. And then have the temerity to call women the hypersensitive, overemotional ones.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Maybe this goes back to the differences communication styles. Girls tend to prefer indirectness and mystery, while guys tend to prefer directness and open honesty. I have trained myself to speak my mind (in a feminine way) with my husband, because that is what he wants.

    By asking to hide the post, she’s actually seeming more calculating (not that it matters since it’s all anonymous). I could be wrong on this score, but it does seem like girls prefer things to seem “natural,” while guys don’t mind the “process” as long as they get good results.

  • Ted D

    Hope – I think that is true, which is why women get upset if they have to “ask” for dominance from a man. I don’t know why, but women generally want to believe all of this stuff just “comes naturally” when in fact in many cases there is a lot of hard work going on behind the scenes. And I think this is what get some men so upset. They feel like they are busting thier ass to make things work, and she believes it’s all just “natural”. I can tell you it tweaks me off to no end…

  • Ted D

    “As I told him, I picture it as sort of a Big Chill weekend, without the sperm donation.”

    ROFLMAO! I imagine it would be a bit ironic if there was a ton of hooking up at a HUS gathering. :P

  • J

    Men misinterpret women’s intentions all the time.

    Well, maybe not all the time but often enough. Despite the fact that one reason DH married me is that he found me very direct and not manipulative, there’ve been a couple of incidents in which I’ve been unjustly accused of manipulating. There are enough female behaviors (crying, denying sex) that are stereotypically viewed as manipulative for a man to mistake them as actual manipulation even if they aren’t meant that way.

  • J

    @Ana #21

    You know, that eventuality actually occured to me on day when you mentioned your book. You’ve made a couple of references about your reading and browsing habits, here and on another site, that if taken out of context really don’t go well with the public image a YA writer might want to have.

  • http://adamtpack.wordpress.com adam

    Y U NO PUT IT BACK??

    I loved that post. There was so much to learn, if only how to tell if a woman digs you (is she emotionally escalating?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s pretty clear that both guys and girls want the kind of information that was in the deleted post. I promise either a rerun or variation so that we can explore the theme of emotional escalation further. I do think there’s a lot of insight to be mined there.

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “I may have to rework it a bit, but I’m confident I can write something that still gets the point across. I just really like using true stories, it seems lame to change the facts around.”

    Between you, Hope, Anacoana, J and others, there is TONS of gold to be mined here. :)

    Also, something me and Ana talked about earlier was having a “True Love Hall of Fame” for stories that happened to people we know from the past that could relate to this. (And hopefully, future, for many of the commenters!) My mom and dad had some really sweet and touching stories of their courtship. :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You know, that eventuality actually occured to me on day when you mentioned your book. You’ve made a couple of references about your reading and browsing habits, here and on another site, that if taken out of context really don’t go well with the public image a YA writer might want to have.

    I know that but there is a method to my madness, trust me. I’m also 50/50 on the whole being open about this or not. I’m thinking on the whole “even bad publicity is publicity” but I have my husband to think about he didn’t signed off to be hated. Although we joke that if haters make us rich he wouldn’t mind the hate. He is a stage hand after he told is the closest thing to a pirate the modern world has :D
    Just out of curiosity what are the things you think would damage me the most?
    It might not be obvious but I can be too honest for my own good without proper training.

    @Susan
    Thank you. Is good to know we have choices. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also, something me and Ana talked about earlier was having a “True Love Hall of Fame” for stories that happened to people we know from the past that could relate to this. (And hopefully, future, for many of the commenters!) My mom and dad had some really sweet and touching stories of their courtship

    My parents love story involves stalking, marrying fresh out of high school (at my father’s pressure) and having tons of kids (4)…is there any wonder why I’m a Twihard! :D

    I agree it would be a lovely tag to add so people can see that love still exist. :)

  • Jackie

    @Queen Anacoana

    “Just out of curiosity what are the things you think would damage me the most?
    It might not be obvious but I can be too honest for my own good without proper training.”

    Ana, I like all your comments and would be so excited for you to be even bigger than Stephenie Meyer. :)

    This isn’t a criticism, just an observation: A LOT of the stuff here is quite politically incorrect. Being anti-slut, pro-prude will make some other people uncomfortable. (Says the person who has been prude-shamed :) ) Also, saying stuff about appearance, fat, etc, will make some people pretty mad.

    That is just my 0.02, though, and could be completely wrong. In the words of a soon-to-be-famous author, YMMV ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This isn’t a criticism, just an observation: A LOT of the stuff here is quite politically incorrect. Being anti-slut, pro-prude will make some other people uncomfortable. (Says the person who has been prude-shamed :) ) Also, saying stuff about appearance, fat, etc, will make some people pretty mad.

    I kind of get the whole anti slut pro prudence but that is part of the themes I’m dealing with in the book (for men and women so guys don’t think I’m going to treat womanizers any kindly they are going down too) so I expect that, but I wouldn’t be oppose to be open about the fact that I was a virgin when I meet my hubby and that I think delaying sex waiting for commitment is the best strategy in the landmine of the modern SMP, IMO.
    The book does deal with the conflicting views young women have about beauty and femininity too, so that is another one that I might have to be open about it.
    I’m not addressing the fat acceptance movement there, though. That is probably the one I would have a harder time explaining and not coming out as a “skinny bitch” but my hard line has grown mostly out of the fact that study after study show how bad it is to be overweight and really I broke with the church for the way they treated science so this is a deal breaker in pretty much everything I do, having all this women saying “people should be celebrated for being fat” is akin to having people celebrating smoking, not how it works for me.
    I also would be more open to it if it was working, is not. I can count with one hand the places were I had been where people don’t comment on me being tiny, or telling how happy they are that I’m sitting next to them and not a fattie, so people is just silent about it still not accepting, so no point on the movement you are just making people shut up about it and let them drop like flies in denial.
    Add the concept that if something is hard you shouldn’t do it has all sorts of problems about how can you live a life were all you do is what it comes easy to you? That sounds vegetable like existence to me and not accomplishment is won without some level of sacrificing.
    So yeah I might have to own that one too or at least use a more polite angle.
    Thanks for your honest answer. :)

  • http://permanentguest.wordpress.com PermanentGuest

    That’s too bad.

    She should have called her guy over to the computer and said “look! This girl used my strategy. It’s like she read my mind!”

    The internet is a large, unusual place.

  • Senior Beta

    Same as Ramble and Adam. One of your best posts. And the most useful for younger women. Why should she be concerned about being exposed for following another person’s (your) good advice? I am damn sure no guy would be embarrassed about using Roosh’s tactics.

  • J

    @Ana

    Being anti-slut, pro-prude will make some other people uncomfortable, but it probably would just generate some helpful publicity. Remarks about appearance, fat, etc. look bad and can be genuinely alienating to many readers, especially those who are worried about the self-esteem of young readers. Neither of those is the big problem. I’ll drop you an email about it.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ll drop you an email about it.

    Okay. I will be waiting. Thanks for the concern. :)

  • J

    Sent.

  • http://eradica.wordpress.com Firepower

    Being overly sensitive about relationships is curious. Most people give themselves more credit for their past exploits than they deserve and view themselves in a favorable light.

  • Odds

    Just would like to say that for me, personally, finding out a girl is intentionally using Girl Game would be intensely flattering and awesome. That she would take the time to deliberately plan a move to make me happy and turned is, is itself a turn-on. At the very least, she would stand out for having thought about how to please me instead of waiting for me to do everything.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The guys’ response here is so interesting! I can see it – the guy being touched and even turned on by her effort. As a woman I know what she feels, though. It’s a bit embarrassing to be learning how to get in touch with one’s own femininity.

      I think a lot of guys would be hesitant to have the girls they like find out that they have memorized Mystery Method.

      Self-improvement is something we can all relate to and respect in others, but it’s easy to feel a bit sheepish about it as well.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Whether thinking tactically about a relationship would be viewed as a positive or a negative depends on what the tactics are AND what the objective of those tactics is. If the objective is “get this guy to marry me because I’m getting desperate and he makes a lot of money and does what I tell him to,” and the tactic is “pretend to be a lot more excited in bed than I really am,” then that’s one thing. If the objective is “get this guy to choose me because I’ve never met anyone like him and I’m completely entranced by him” and the tactic is “try to really understand and help him with some things that are really bothering him,” then that’s something else entirely.

  • http://permanentguest.wordpress.com PermanentGuest

    At the very least, she would stand out for having thought about how to please me instead of waiting for me to do everything.

    Exactly. I’m not upset if she takes the time to be more attractive to me.

  • Infantry

    Just would like to say that for me, personally, finding out a girl is intentionally using Girl Game would be intensely flattering and awesome

    For me its also a good sign, but I still need to screen her for character. Are our personalities generally compatible? Does she try to lead us towards expensive activities or dates? Are there other men in her life that she treats this way or other indicators of histrionic PD?

    Game is amoral. Its a tool that can be used for benevolence or selfish aims. Yes, even girl game.

  • Tom.s

    I would just like to second the motion to get that post up in a different form . It really was a great post.

  • Travis

    @Susan,
    Not sure if you’re aware, but you were quoted (along with Darlock) in this article in the Sydney Morning Herald….

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html

  • Just1X

    @Travis

    that’s a good find, thanks for the link. She writes a pretty fair summary of both sides. The hamsterbation in the comments starts in comment one! I must admit that the article is pretty familiar stuff, but it’s nice to see it in the mainstream. Now off to read the comments

    thanks again

  • Ramble

    I think a lot of guys would be hesitant to have the girls they like find out that they have memorized Mystery Method.

    However, what if we lived in a parallel universe and the girl said to the guy:

    Girl: Wow, you really know what you are doing.
    Guy: Well, it wasn’t always that way. I was once quite awkward.
    Girl: What changed.
    Guy: I started reading Jane Austen.
    Girl: [swoon]

    I think that much of the difference is in that girls are not happy to find out about their rationalizations, whereas guys will joke constantly about their own over beers.

  • Ramble

    I’m not addressing the fat acceptance movement there, though. That is probably the one I would have a harder time explaining and not coming out as a “skinny bitch” but my hard line has grown mostly out of the fact that study after study show how bad it is to be overweight and really I broke with the church for the way they treated science so this is a deal breaker in pretty much everything I do, having all this women saying “people should be celebrated for being fat” is akin to having people celebrating smoking, not how it works for me.

    Ana, the Fat Acceptance movement, while interesting, is the outlier.

    You will find “Relationship” books extoll the virtues of losing weight, but it is always, ALWAYS, couched in terms of health.

    Whereas, as far as I can tell, the majority of non-slim girls under 30 do not need to lose weight for health reasons, but for (mostly) superficial ones.

    This is not to say that all of the refined carbs they get are good for them, or that they are at peak health, but that if they want to lose weight, it is mostly for superficial reasons.

    That is the issue. Extolling the virtue of losing weight so that you look more attractive. And coming to a full stop right after you say that…no protecting of self by placing these recommendations in terms of health.

  • Travis

    @Just1X,
    Thanks. Although I can’t take credit. Someone posted the link over at Darlock’s. When I read the article, I was pleasantly surprised to notice HUS was mentioned.
    By the way, one of your comments (I believe it was you) on another thread has just inspired me to re-watch the John Adams mini-series. Have you read the David McCullough book it was based on? Hands down one of the best biographies ever written, IMO. Don’t know if you’re much of a reader, but if you are, you might want to check it out. It’s definitely worth the time. The movie was good, but it doesn’t even come close to doing the book justice…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Travis

      Thanks for the link, I was aware of that. I have mixed feelings about being paired with Caldork :)

  • Just1X

    @Travis,

    I just saw Greenlander on Spearhead…let’s see what his reaction to his new infamy.

    I hadn’t seen anything about John Adams before (might have missed it on Sky when I was away), but I figure that anyone with a cousin (I’m guessing that Sam in the series, is THE ‘Sam Adams’) who has a beer named after him, can’t be all bad. So, I bought the box set. It was interesting how British everybody was, and how hard the decision to split from a far away country ruled by German king. Nowadays it’s the thought of the UK becoming a republic under Tony Blair that keeps me a loyal subject.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ana, the Fat Acceptance movement, while interesting, is the outlier.

    I wouldn’t be so sure. I mostly go for what I see around me and I had seen a lot of people being really, really overweight to a point they can’t walk on their own and continuing to be like that for years and then ordering the biggest meal on the restaurant/store… I also see how people react to think like Melissa Mcarty making a movie and how they praise her for being “real” and I’m getting the feeling that is more accepted than criticized also I think the statistics say the epidemy is growing not diminishing.

    You will find “Relationship” books extoll the virtues of losing weight, but it is always, ALWAYS, couched in terms of health.

    Whereas, as far as I can tell, the majority of non-slim girls under 30 do not need to lose weight for health reasons, but for (mostly) superficial ones.

    Were I live (Southern California) there is an interesting class divide you can have a big part of the people here counting their calories like their lives depend on it, ordering the smaller meals and so forth and another side that is pretty much stuffing their faces like there is not tomorrow, not able to walk long walks or stand up for long periods of time and being clearly overweight is a picture of contrasts but there is a lot of denial. I particularly think that Americans are mostly like that extreme in pretty much everything, finding the sweet spot seems to be the problem in everything, weight, sex, exercise….YMMV.

  • Scoot

    Man, I have really not been able to keep up with the comments around here at all!

    I agree with the sentiment that the removed post was an excellent one and should be reposted in one form or another, if at all possible. It’s gold.

    There’s something about a “call to action” where Girl Game is concerned that is uplifting. A lot of the focus, much of the time, is on things a girl should NOT do, or should NOT say, or it’s centered around simply showing up, looking good enough and not being an *entirely* awful person. While that’s excellent advice, it’s easy (as a girl) to sit around fretting over whether you’re “doing things right” because, you feel like you’re not doing much (or enough) at all. And that can be frustrating.

    I’m not sure I feel the warm-fuzzies about the stories that many of the other commenters do, but they were lovely little stories. And personally, I really love to do sweet, thoughtful things like the examples given, or at least I have on many occasions in the past (I’ve been single for several years, so it’s been a while). I get a lot of joy out of showing my affection for a man, making sure he knows how much he is appreciated and valued.
    (And on a sidenote, mostly for Hope: I’ve totally gifted a guy with gold! WoW romance is adorable and I’ve seen it work out well many times.)

    In my experience, overt sweetness isn’t received very well, though. I think the most enthusiastic response I’ve ever gotten for my efforts is, “Oh, hey, that’s nice.” Certainly not, “Wow, you’re a keeper!” And certainly no reciprocation.

    Jumping in with both feet and attempting to escalate emotionally before you’re fully certain the other party is on the same page is, frankly, terrifying. As a girl, I’ve always felt like it’s “my job” to do that, so it is nice to see that theme reinforced by wise and trusted sources. Still, by the time you feel the desire to lay your cards out on the table like that, you’ve developed some measure of feelings for the fellow and having your attentions refused at that point never seems to get any less crushing. For me, that sort of behavior usually elicits a conversation that starts with, “I’m sorry; I just don’t know how to love people right. Maybe I’m not built for relationships.” So then I tuck my tail between my legs, cease my advances (certainly not let them escalate physically) and crawl off to lick my wounds privately. Without fail, the men decide ~6 months later that they’re ready to settle down and get serious – with someone else. “Not built for relationships” indeed!

    It’s fully possible that I just haven’t gotten as good at filtering as I think I have, or that my flaws are too serious to be overcome by my tender gestures of appreciation, but it’s a bummer. That doesn’t mean I’m going to allow myself to get bitter about it, or stop trying, but it’s a drag nonetheless, and it leads to a lot of wondering about how much of it just boils down to luck. As far as I can tell from observing most of the committed relationships around me, men will put up with all sorts of horrific behavior from the “right” woman – the one who they’re overwhelmingly physically attracted to and who shows up at a moment when they’re feeling open to commitment. And they’ll stick with it for years – whether this is due to genuine love or to the sunk cost fallacy is anybody’s guess, but that’s a whole separate topic. I know plenty of men who would say, if asked, that these sweet and kind gestures are wholeheartedly appreciated and that they’re how you know a woman is a “good egg,” but these same men will hang on for ages to women who are, frankly, bad people and terrible girlfriends. I have to tell myself, in order to sleep at night, that these decent men are with those women despite their awful characteristics, and not because of them. It’s confusing and mind-blowingly sad.

    Bottom line: yes, decent and worthwhile men might really appreciate these sincere demonstrations of affection. But I personally think they’re unlikely to help you if he hasn’t already decided that you might be a keeper. And how do you know if he has, until you try? You don’t! Terrifying.

    Gentlemen: Do you disagree? Do you think that demonstrations like those mentioned (or, for those who didn’t get to read it – sweet and relatively small gestures of appreciation) can tip the scales significantly in favor of a girl you might otherwise have considered writing off?

    I could go on and on, especially since the Fat Acceptance movement just got brought into this, but I’ll stop myself here!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Scoot

      There’s something about a “call to action” where Girl Game is concerned that is uplifting.

      Yes, this is key. It always feels better to be active rather than passive. Women can and should take more control of their dating lives, on their terms. Meaning – you are not required to have sex after a date, go out with guys interested in hooking up because they’re the only ones showing interest, or look for kernels of affection from a guy who is clearly not making much of an effort.

      Jumping in with both feet and attempting to escalate emotionally before you’re fully certain the other party is on the same page is, frankly, terrifying. As a girl, I’ve always felt like it’s “my job” to do that, so it is nice to see that theme reinforced by wise and trusted sources. Still, by the time you feel the desire to lay your cards out on the table like that, you’ve developed some measure of feelings for the fellow and having your attentions refused at that point never seems to get any less crushing.

      This is a real risk. I don’t think that women can emotionally afford to do this very often. Allowing oneself to fall in love, only to be rejected, sometimes not even gently, is soul crushing. The best advice I can give is to reserve emotional escalation after having qualified the guy in every conceivable way. You can’t know if he will want a relationship with you, but you can examine his recent behavior (or ask him) and ascertain whether he wants a relationship at all. Men who hang out with psycho bitches are themselves terrible relationship prospects.

      There are also degrees of escalation. Remembering a guy’s favorite beer is a small, hopeful gesture. Cooking him a meal instead of expecting a night out doesn’t mean it’s wise to make him the center of your world. It’s actually quite a bit like traditional dating was – in the early days you find ways to signal interest and slowly escalate to increase the investment. As I said in the OP, it’s important to stay in step with the guy. You do something nice for him, and wait for him to reciprocate with a gesture of interest and investment. It’s a waltz – you can’t go running off on your own.

      I’m not saying it’s easy. Filtering attractive people out is very difficult and depressing to do. But failing to do so can easily lead a woman to spend 20 years dating men who avoid commitment.

  • Ramble

    I mostly go for what I see around me and I had seen a lot of people being really, really overweight to a point they can’t walk on their own and continuing to be like that for years and then ordering the biggest meal on the restaurant/store… I also see how people react to think like Melissa Mcarty making a movie and how they praise her for being “real” and I’m getting the feeling that is more accepted than criticized

    Oh, I believe it. I have been to Walmart many, many times.

    Still, I maintain that for the under 30 set, obesity is not a “huge” problem. I actually think that Lena Dunham is a pretty good example of what is happening out there, weight-wise.

    And, it is her suburban sisters that mostly become the obese set.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Not sure if you’re aware, but you were quoted (along with Darlock) in this article in the Sydney Morning Herald….

    I really like this article I do wonder if there was not a lot of wisdom on the idea that women should try and marry before 30? I mean it sounds oppressive specially with the educational market becoming so inflated but I think having a deadline would be a lot better so women instead of thinking that they have ALL the time in the world can start to think about the kind of man they want earlier and maybe who knows try to give their “average” counterpart a chance before things get too complicated. I do remember one of the reasons I decided to outsource around the 25 mark (aside from being horny as hell) is that I knew the oldest I got the hardest would be to find a man that was never married or had any kids (a very important feature I desired to avoid dealing with crazy exes), thus I did understand the concept that you need to adjust your standards to the market (but then I have a degree on advertising so maybe that also informed myself well about this dynamics who knows) something I think is missing if dating sites and articles written to tell men to “man up” are to be believed, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    (a very important feature I desired to avoid dealing with crazy exes),

    I wanted to add that having kids before me aside from being economic competition for my own children, will take away a bit of the specialness of experiencing the first pregnancy together. Hubby and I are bonding a lot about dealing with this for the first time most of my cad players are very “whatever” after woman number 4 gives birth to kid number 6…not a desirable dynamic for myself at least, YMMV.

  • SayWhaat

    In my experience, overt sweetness isn’t received very well, though. I think the most enthusiastic response I’ve ever gotten for my efforts is, “Oh, hey, that’s nice.” Certainly not, “Wow, you’re a keeper!” And certainly no reciprocation.

    I agree, that’s been my experience as well. I want to believe the men in this thread, really I do! But I think that there is a hidden/underlying component that isn’t being considered, such as back when the men were saying that they loved it when girls approached them — only we found out that doing so immediately put us in the “Slut” box. Men love being approached because it rarely happens, I suppose, but the female approach isn’t usually reciprocated with (prolonged) male interest.

    So, there’s still some hazards of emotional escalation that need to be figured out. No reward with out pain, sure, but some stuff can be mitigated.

  • Just1X

    “only we found out that doing so immediately put us in the “Slut” box”

    not sure about that, but you are stepping outside the ‘norm’. You’re going to be:
    1) received in a positive way (most of the time)
    2) going to raise ‘what the hell is going on? where’s the catch?’ feelings. (i.e. not necessarily a slut, but requiring thought)

    The mixture of the two 50/50 80/20 20/80 is going to depend on the guy and his life experiences. And his judgement of the woman. So, someone like Jackie (that I ‘know’ as a nice young woman on teh interweb), is going to garner a lot less suspicion than my ex-wife (bit of an eternal ingenue).

    So, I agree with the woman escalating being a great idea in theory, just be careful with the practice. AFAIR none of Susan’s examples would have set alarm bells jangling, keep it small, sweet and not something requiring a huge payback. Buying the beer he drank last time is not something imparting a huge debt on him, but it IS a nice, thoughtful thing to do. He is very likely to notice and appreciate the gesture.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    He is very likely to notice and appreciate the gesture.

    If he is not an entitled asshole that thinks she is only doing what she should given that he is awesome and generous enough to allow her to be in his presence. ;)

  • Emily

    I’m always surprised by which gestures are most appreciated and which ones seem to be barely noticed. And I’m sure this works vice-versa as well, what with male/female differences and all…

  • Just1X

    @Ana
    well…yeah. I’ll give you that. The same happens in the opposite direction (if that’s a comfort? but I doubt that it is)
    g’night

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    well…yeah. I’ll give you that. The same happens in the opposite direction (if that’s a comfort? but I doubt that it is)
    g’night

    ITA. The big lesson is “do not give pearls to pigs” and pigs come in either gender, YMMV.

  • Suzy

    Alright, longtime lurker coming out of the shadows today!
    I don’t really have much to add on the current subject – most people have said what I wanted to say anyways. That being said… has anyone else heard about 50 Shades of Grey being made into a movie? I laughed so hard when I read that :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Suzy

      Welcome, thanks for delurking and introducing yourself! Chime in anytime. It should be interesting to see how 50 Shades gets cast. I think the author sold the movie rights for $5 million early on, and she retained all control over major decisions.

  • J

    That being said… has anyone else heard about 50 Shades of Grey being made into a movie? I laughed so hard when I read that.

    I heard. I laughed too until I realized how much money E.L.James stands to make from a movie deal. Then I felt jealous. ;-)

    More seriously, I have read some excerpts from the book, and I am amazed at how poorly written it is–poor grammar, poor syntax, unimaginative and stilted dialogue. Yet, she’s gonna make bank, lotsa, lotsa bank.

  • OffTheCuff

    SayWhaat, we love when women approach us because it allows us to choose and transfers almost all the risk away. It doesn’t mean we love it in the sense of “taking all offers”. I have had women approach me a bunch of times. Some made the cut, others not. Usually it skewed towards short-term sex. (This is very different than emotional escalation in a dating context, where I was leading physically.)

  • Squared

    @Susan the article can actually still be viewed by anyone with a direct link to it.

  • Scoot

    @Suzy – The idea of 50 Shades as a movie makes me chuckle heartily. I read the first book after SW mentioned it, actually, and I didn’t bother with the rest of them. Almost everything that takes place in that first book seems absolutely ridiculous. It seems like one of those things, like Twilight, where reading it might actually be detrimental since it may plant the seed for such unrealistic expectations for real-life relationships – perhaps especially kinky ones. I’m pretty sure there was an extensive discussion here on that topic a while back. Also, it’s not so very kinky (and not even very sexy) at all, after all that hype.
    However, it’s definitely kinky and sexy enough to make me feel weird about the giant stacks of it I saw all around the airport(s) during the vacation I just took. I saw elderly people thumbing through it in the Hudson News stores, moms with kids in tow reading it on the plane. Bizarre.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I saw elderly people thumbing through it in the Hudson News stores

      Ew.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms scoot:
    Wrt socalled “girl game”-what you said just validates the truth about the enterprise: it. Doesnt. Work.

    Why?

    Because, women have been brainwashed by a post-modern, feminist-informed society to believe that the sexes are essentially the same. They are not.

    Say what you will about roosh-and to be sure ive vociferously disagreed with the guy myself many times-but he was right:

    “girl game”, if one can call it that, boils down to two very simple steps:

    1. Spend all your available free time improving your appearnce

    And

    2. Lower your standards.

    Far too many women today think “tactical” things ala game will work for them just in “female” form; some women will swear up and down that the exact same tactics that worked on them will work on men. They. Dont.

    The reason why game works on women is because women have a much broader pallet of attraction triggers than do men; couple this with womens need for more time assessment before commiting to sex w/a man and viola!-”he grew on me”. Well, yea, he *can* “grow on you” IF he has enough time to display traits most women find sexually desirable, and he has enough of them to do the trick. Of course if a womans looking for a short term mating deal, the guy in question just has to either be very physically smoking hot and/or have mad wealth/fame/social status/power. And yes, “good girls” short term mate as much as anyone else, so dont even front. But yea, for the usual ltr stuff, what i said earlier is how it works for women-they need time to see if dude can hit all or at least most of the “buttons”.

    For men though, this simply isnt the case; it may not be fair but mother nature rarely is. For guys, it all comes down to one factor and one factor alone:

    “how does she look?”

    And the simple truth is-and this suddenly dawned on me recently-the reason why so many women rail against the roosh formula of “girl game”, is because they know THEY. CANT. CUT. IT.

    Theyre simply not hot enough to get the guys they really want to actually commit. All the degrees and the money/status associated with them, if anything, is a detriment rather an asset, since it takes time to get those things; and women age like dog years. No dis, im just keepin it real. So, a decade or more in school/and/or on the job, well that takes away from one of your most valuable assets to a man, which is youth. No matter how “accomplished” you are-if you was a passable 5 or 6 to begin with and now youre at or north of 30, “catching” the hot and accomplished 8 or 9 guy just. Aint. Gonna. Happen for you. You must lower your standards.

    This is a very powerful-and very painful-reality for arguably millions of black american women. Ive always said that if theres a such thing as the biggest victim of feminism, the sistahood is it. The notion of “girl game” in black america is so ubiquitous its become a cottage indsutry, led by outfits like essence magazine (the most recent issue of which, features a 40-something year old baby mama twice over, nia long talking smack about how shes “single and loving it” or some such nonsense). Sistas read stuff like this all over the place in black usa and honestly believe it. Yet they are the most unpartnered women in the entire country, and a major reason for that is because theyre aiming to high while at the same time theyre not hot enough. Then, when someone like steve harvey tells them that they have to lower their standards (which is the same thing that roosh said) the sistahood has a bird.

    Really good looking, highly successful men aint settling for nothing less than a strong 8 gal on the scale. For every anecdote any of you can whipout about such a guy who got with that plain jane with a heart of gold i or any other guy can counter it with three times as many examples. Easily. In fact everytime such a guy breaks up with a hottie, he upgrades more often than not. To wit: tom brady. Brad pitt. 50 cent. Puff daddy. The list is endless.

    Male attraction triggers are like a 1970s era tv remote-you have like two buttons on it: youth and beauty. Womens attraction triggers are like todays tv remotes-a huge pad with dozens of buttons on them. The trick is though, that in the former case the fee buttons that are there are vital to the system; in the latter while all those buttons are nice you dont need em all in order to watch some nice tv.

    “emotionally escalating” with a guy who doesnt deem you hot enough wont mean squat. Thats the truth, ruth.

    Youre not hot enough. You need to spend all your free time improving your appearance and then lowering your standards. A 4 guy will cherish a 6 gal. An 8 or above guy will see her as a “friend with bennies”.

    Im just sayin.

    Obsidian
    The big brotha you never had :)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Wrt the female obesity issue…

    I know how much this issue is a huge area of concern among (mostly white) men, but i gotta tell ya, i think its a bunch of hooey.

    Why?

    Because im simply not seeing much evidence that guys are all that bothered by the ladies getting a bit more junk in the trunk. If anything the evidence runs in the opposite direction.

    If you simply take to the streets of philly or any other major city you will see-especially now thats a very hot summer-all kinds of women who are quite plus-sized, and they either have a man in tow or failing that at least one kid in tow. Clear evidence that guys dont really have that big an issue with the big gals.

    This makes sense when you understand evopsych: men have lower sexual standards and will act on them accordingly when the situation demands it. This explains why guys like roosh and tucker max hit the big gals too, no matter how much they talk smack about em afterwards.

    Another huge factor is if said big girls have the things that all men find physically attractive, which are:

    1. Pretty face
    2. Nice hair
    3. Shapely figure
    4. Youth

    In fact #3 is perhaps the singlemost important factor here because a bigger gal can still compete if her figure is clearly there. (the fame waist to hip ratio) In other words if she got that hourglass thing happening-her dress size per se (and within reason) wont count. A very shapely dress size 18 can still get it from a heck of a lot more guys than many guys may openly admit. At that dress size though it helps if shes tall-5’8″ or above-and has the other things on the list going for her. A good example of what i mean are the “plus sized models”-trust me when i tell ya, none of em would have much trouble getting a guy into her bed. Gabi gregg, the late mia amber davis, i think her name is christine renn, the plus size model from russia with the last name of zarkova-all these gals have the things men across time and cultures find attractive.

    So nah, im sorry fellas-im just not seeing much realworld evidence that big gals are so hideous or otherwise so very undesirable. If that were true they wouldnt be getting any action at all-which is indeed the case, historically, for most men. That holds true today.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Höllenhund

    a bigger gal can still compete if her figure is clearly there. (the fame waist to hip ratio) In other words if she got that hourglass thing happening-her dress size per se (and within reason) wont count

    Aria Giovanni is undoubtedly a “big gal”, but her body is proportionate, so men generally find her attractive.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAp8t-zDPvg

    Having said that, most “big gals”, or overweight gals or whatever else we want to call them, aren’t like that. They don’t have hourglass figures – their bodies are disproportionate with a screwed-up hip-to-waist ratio, they have fat faces etc. Not exactly boner-inducing stuff.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Wrt “50 shades of grey: the movie”…

    You know what im very interested in seeing if they can pull that off; what made the twilight series so popular was its demographic which was much younger women for the most part. In the case of “50 shades” is from all i can tell, that its biggest audience seems to be suburban upper middle class married mom types. Will they support a film version of “50 shades” to the same degree that was the case as twilight etc? That remains to be seen.

    All in all i dont see the book(s) having much of an impact among the under 30 female cohort; i havent seen much evidence of this, and in any event definitely no evidence that black women are feeling em at all. Im not entirely sure quite why that is: whether its due to lack of interest in what “50 shades” deals with, or if its the simple fact that black women have their own genre(s) of lit aimed at them or what. I just know that i havent heard much discussion or interest in “50 shades” among the sistahood.

    But what the furor surrounding “50 shades”, to the extent it exists, does say to me is that its a heck of a commentary on what umc older married women think and feel about their men. Among a great many things…

    I know ms walsh has taken up the topic before but perhaps she will revisit it with the above observations in mind-?

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hollenhund:
    The problem with what youre saying is that the big gals are still reproducing(!)-proof if there ever was one that men find them passable for doing the deed.

    Look i know this runs counter to some vociferous corners of the manosphere would like to have us believe but the plain truth of it is that male sexual psychology is such that big gals will NEVER want for some wood. Like i said, roosh and tucker have hit a big gal-granted they talked about em like a dog on their blogs-but they still hit it.

    End. Of.

    Plus, it simply doesnt jibe with what i see all the time on the streets-and this includes white guys. I see biggish gals all the time with either guys or babies or both in tow. Simple as that. Being a big gal is no bar to getting wood chief. And the reason for that is simply because, as buss and so many others have said, men can and will lower their sexual standards if they have to. Getting some is much better than getting none for most guys.

    Think about it-how many big gals truly are spinsters?

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hollenhund:
    Giovannis a stick. When i say “plus sized” i mean:

    Queen latifah before she went under the knife

    Crystal renn before she lost weight

    Katya zharkova

    Mia amber davis (from her “road trip” days)

    And the vast majority of the wilhelmina model roster past and present.

    NONE of these women would have much trouble attracting guys, h. Again, i know that runs counter to the party line in the sphere but who am i supposed to believe-them, or my lying eyes? Come on.

    Jennifer hudson landed a guy who just about any woman would say is a catch-BEFORE she lost the weight. In fact david otungas gone on record as saying that he thought she lost too much weight(!). Im just sayin.

    For all the sound and fury in the sphere hating on big gals the truth is they are hardly suffering for attention. Take a day out to walk the streets of chitown, nyc, philly, b-more, etc et al and see for yourself. Lets be honest: guys can talk a mean game of smack among their homies but when the rubber hits the road they can and will tap that.

    Again: roosh and tucker max are living proof of that fact.

    O.

  • Scoot

    @Obsidian (your first comment, toward me):
    True. Absolutely true.
    I think one of the biggest disservices anybody ever did me – perhaps one of the biggest disservices done to a lot of young girls, or people in general – is to say from a young age, “Oh, doesn’t matter what you look like – someone will love you just the way you are.”
    Well, that’s true – someone always will. Seldom the people you actually want, though. And being an overweight woman doesn’t just mean that you’ll end up with an overweight guy, because we all know that weight doesn’t have quite the same deleterious effect on a man’s SMV as it does on a woman’s. So you’ll end up compromising in other areas.
    I’m overweight. Not so much that I can’t shop at normal stores, but enough that it gives many men pause no matter how awesome I behave or how “pretty” I am. I wish with every fiber of my being that someone had told me when I was young what an EMERGENCY that is, if my goal was to settle down with a good guy, which it always has been. But instead, you’re told it doesn’t matter, and heaven help you if you ever talk about losing weight to attract a partner – that’s the “wrong reason” and there is a LOT of shaming directed at you from other women.
    In fact, that’s an understatement – there’s a crushing, overwhelming amount of shaming heaped on any women from all angles anytime she admits that looking your best is the most important thing to do (since it’s how you get your foot in the door). I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for folks to admit that they want to look “hot” for the opposite sex.
    I don’t sit around and wonder why I’m single – it’s no mystery to me. So now I get to work on that like it’s my full-time job and hope that I’ll be succesful and still have enough of my youth left to enjoy it and reap the full benefits.
    As for your other comments about larger ladies never wanting for wood – this is also true. I’m a size 14 – maybe a 16 in an unforgiving brand. Not enormous, but certainly a far cry from my ideal weight. There is no shortage whatsoever of sexual interest from men – some of whom are way, way above my level. Very handsome, charming men will line up around the block to P&D a fat girl, but when it comes time to get serious, it’s nothing but crickets. No thanks; I don’t play, and I try not to let myself be flattered by the attention, because it’s insincere.
    I’ve worked hard to improve myself in just about every other way, and I have the advantages of a decent build, a decent face, feminine fashion sense, pretty hair, domestic skills, what I hope is a pleasant demeanor and realistic expectations. And it’s still a huge struggle. I can’t even imagine what it’s like for some.

  • Infantry

    @SayWhaat

    I want to believe the men in this thread, really I do! But I think that there is a hidden/underlying component that isn’t being considered, such as back when the men were saying that they loved it when girls approached them

    I think it might be like when women say they love it when guys come up and hit on them. What they leave out is that the guy must be attractive first.

    Vice versa, I think the guy has to be quite attracted to you and only then will you get good results from emotional escalation. If he has another girl he’s set his sights on, or he’s not looking for a relationship, I doubt doing these things will be as effective.

  • Tassie

    Unfortunately I didn’t get to read the deleted post, but am likewise very interested in a replacement!

    I don’t know therefore if this is something that was included, but I have friends who are knitters, and they’ve talked about something called ‘The Sweater Test’. Basically, knitting a sweater – or some other tailor-made object – for their man, when in a relationship. It seems to behave like an act of emotional escalation, in that if the guy IS ready to commit, the knitter will often find herself receiving a marriage proposal; and if he ISN’T ready, she’ll probably get dumped. Because the sweater is a signal that she is investing significant time and thought in him and handmade stuff tends to be seen as a Serious Gift.

  • Emily

    Tassie,

    That knitting test is hilarious. I’m currently knitting a blanket for my bf. It’s gonna take ages though.

  • Ted D

    “Because im simply not seeing much evidence that guys are all that bothered by the ladies getting a bit more junk in the trunk. If anything the evidence runs in the opposite direction.”

    I’ve gone on record here and elsewhere saying that I prefer bigger girls. But, as you pointed out, they MUST have that hourglass figure, or I’m just not interested. (I think I linked to a pic of Christina Hendricks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hendricks.) In fact, I have no issue at all with a shapely woman wearing a size 16-18 dress. I’m much more impressed by a big girl that can pull of something shape hugging than any fashion model you can show me. And I put my money where my mouth is, although I won’t tell you my SO’s exact size because she would be less than pleased. I will say this: as a rather big guy myself (although getting somewhat smaller…) I don’t want to be afraid of hurting or breaking my mate when going “rough and tumble:. I actually prefer to be with a woman that’s built like she could knock me around a bit if I pissed her off. LOL

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    I would second what Ted D said. Girl game really should depend on what you’re attracted to, and playing to tailor to your target audience. If you’re attracted to men who prefer model-thin girls, mainstream beauties and generic hotties, and don’t care about domestic skills, smarts or personality, then becoming that would be good girl game. If you’re attracted to men who adore girl-next-door types, nerdy girls, or a particular religion/spirituality, then becoming that would be good girl game.

    Don’t listen to advice from players about girl game unless you want to date and tame players. If you prefer a different type of man, find out what those types like. Yes, chances are, that type also wants a woman with an hourglass figure, but he might be fine compromising on that when the rest of the package is excellent.

  • J

    @Tassie and Emily

    I knit. I’d advise starting small with a scarf or hat. Sweaters and afghans are for fiances or guys you want to propose.

    @Obs

    I once knit DH a sweater. ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      LOL, I love your knitting update to Obs. No doubt he’ll say knitting is SWPL. I have knitted for my kids, but never for my husband. I’m kind of tempted to try a pair of socks.

  • Emily

    Yeah, I’ve joked that by the time I’m done this blanket, I’ll probably already be married …possibly to a completely different guy!

    I’m sure it doesn’t help that I also have several smaller projects on the go. ;)

  • J

    @SW

    Though I learned to knit during my prole days, I now use more expensive yarn–even when I don’t have to–cuz I’m proud to be SWPL! So proud, I just made a sandwich with crusty artisan bread. You heard me, dammit! Proud!

    I’ve never knit socks. Turning the heel looks difficult. I’m also afraid of knitting socks so bulky that people won’t want to wear them. The sweater I knit DH (a royal blue cardigan in a comples stitch, Obs) has worn like iron because he only wears it a few times a year, on the coldest days.

  • Emily

    I’m allergic to wool, so I pretty much have to use the cheaper yarns. But I’m sure that this is actually a blessing in disguise. :P

  • Pingback: Fat Acceptance. I didn’t get it.. so why should you? « M3

  • J

    All kidding aside, I started using some synthetics when I started knitting for my kids. Easier to wash.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I always wanted to learn how to knit (I learned crochet ages ago but I suck at it) and when I finally did I started a scarf after hours and hours of work it turned out the size of a hankerchief I gave up on the institution.
    My feminine wile is cooking though, hubby actually is getting used to this so much that he asked me to do him some chinese pork bons from scratch is kind of complicated but I managed to pull it off, and he proudly had one of his chinese students to taste it and he gave it the thumbs up. I’m currently creating a recipe for a “tropical” pie for a cooking contest using my supertaster tongue, my cooking skills, my Dominican flavors knowledge and some advice from Martha Stewart pies and tarts book. Wish me luck! ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    In fact, that’s an understatement – there’s a crushing, overwhelming amount of shaming heaped on any women from all angles anytime she admits that looking your best is the most important thing to do (since it’s how you get your foot in the door). I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for folks to admit that they want to look “hot” for the opposite sex.

    I hope this doesn’t sound harsh but with those people you have two choices you whether don’t talk about it with them or just plain don’t be friends with them.

    I don’t sit around and wonder why I’m single – it’s no mystery to me. So now I get to work on that like it’s my full-time job and hope that I’ll be succesful and still have enough of my youth left to enjoy it and reap the full benefits.

    I really admire that you are being honest with yourself instead of following the “big and sexy” crowd. You will not only be more attractive you will live longer and healthier. I really commend you for this effort it takes a lot of will and self knowledge to go for it. And how knows if you enter a gym you might meet someone there. Good luck in your goal and please if someone tries to sabotage you (you look great like that, a man that doesn’t see your beauty like this doesn’t deserve you…here have a twinkie) please don’t listen.

  • Höllenhund

    To be quite honest, Obsidian, I don’t see indignant whinging and fury in the Manosphere about the obesity epidemic – this is simply anecdotal evidence on my part, but again, you offered the same. What I do see, thought, is the observation that the obesity epidemic contributes to the dysfunctional SMP.

    It’s very simple. As a growing % of women become fat or obese, a growing % of aggregate heterosexual male attention is redirected towards the decreasing cohort of women that are slender or just curvy (like Aria Giovanni or Beyonce), with little or no excess weight (that’s what men normally prefer). This fuels the hypergamy among slender women (the fantasy of endless choice and all that), and thus intra-male sexual competition increases.

    There are two other things you aren’t taking into account.

    One is that it’s entirely possible for a sex-starved beta to NOT pursue sexual relations with overweight or obese women. In fact, this seems to be a growing phenomenon due to the spread of online porn, 3D porn, porn addiction in general, fleshlights, video games and so on. There has been a lot of whining and complaining about this in the mainstream media. The obesity epidemic merely fuels this. There’s a “floor” of sexual attraction for everyone – Brendan had many comments about this.

    Moreover, you need to keep in mind that having casual sex with fat women is one thing; committing to, and investing in them is another. Men are generally willing to do the former; the latter is less frequent. We also need to keep in mind that fat women are hypergamous as well. A bunch of betas may be interested in them, but they aren’t wanted.

  • Höllenhund

    There’s, generally speaking, a vicious circle to be observed in the SMP. Badger explained it:

    As female quality declines, men are less motivated to pull themselves up towards the alpha side of the ladder, so fewer men are attractive, so women stop marketing themselves to men in the middle of the curve and become casual sex products for the top of the male market, which further demotivates relationship-oriented men.

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/the-subsidizers-dilemma-or-squeezing-the-sexual-marketplace-from-both-ends/#comment-6366

    As anyone can see, it’s very simple and in front of our noses. But as Orwell said, to notice what’s in front of your nose requires a constant struggle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hmmm, I wonder if Badger has ever considered the decline in male quality. More men than women are obese, IIRC.

      It’s been very interesting to watch Badger’s gradual transformation to MRA.

  • Höllenhund

    Knitting is an obvious DHV for women, no matter how we slice it.

  • Höllenhund

    Physical appearance, on average, is less important for women as for men in terms of phsyical attraction, so male obesity is a relatively less significant issue. But…why did I even say that? I’m sure you already know that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Agreed, women are less visual. But I’d still say there’s a floor for attraction. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an obese men with a with a woman of higher SMV than his own.

  • Höllenhund

    *physical attraction* = *sexual attraction*

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hollenhund:
    Yes i hear all that youre saying but youre not hearing what ive been saying at all. Please go back read what i actually said and answer me if what i said was utterly baseless.

    Roosh and tucker max both hit “fatties”. End of. They both wrote about it.

    Big women will not want for wood. For every guy not willing to “debase himself” there are literally dozens of other men who can and will line up to tap that. Look at ms scoots reply to my earlier comments she ought to know.

    Big women have kids. Whered they come from? Somebody did the deed.

    Am i saying that they are whats preferred? Not exactly. But to say that they cant get no action is ridiculous, hh. Thats the plain truth of it.

    Every woman i listed above would not only get dozens if not thousands of willing sexual male partners, quite a few of them can even get hubbies, hh. For you or anyone else in the sphere to deny this blatantly obvious fact contributes to the “crazy factor” of said sphere.

    Lets try this again: evolved male sexual psychology is such that men can and will drastically lower their sexual standards if and when the circumstances warrant it. Roosh has talked about this extensively in a post called “the i have standards excuse”. One reason why the dimes and upper 30% of the gals are having such a hard time out there today, is directly due to this truth be told. And if i were a betting man id lay some very good odds that some of the biggest mouths in the sphere talking smack about “fatties” are the main ones up in ms scoots grill and women like her, mounting them on the downlow. I invite you to come to philly anytime this summer, we’ll hop the septa buses and trains and you tell me how you explain all the big gals with their kids and often men in tow. Lets put all these wonderful manosphere/roissy theories to the acid test.

    Any. Time. Youre. Ready.

    You know how to reach me.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Tucker Max writes openly about being repulsed by the overweight woman he had sex with. He did it strictly so that he could write about it as a gag. It was a good marketing strategy – Tucker Fucks a Fattie, Hilarity Ensues became one of his most famous essays.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sure, there is a decline in male quality, but it’s perhaps it’s more due to men being raised weak and supplicating, than obese. While there more are more obese men than women, we’ve noted women weigh (heh) that less heavily (snerk) than dominance. Not sure if saying this makes me a MRA.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sure, there is a decline in male quality, but it’s perhaps it’s more due to men being raised weak and supplicating, than obese.

      Perhaps it is. I’m just saying that an article pointing out the overall decline in female quality is rather one-sided. I don’t think either sex can claim the high ground here. Both sexes view the other as largely unfit for relationships.

  • Höllenhund

    I don’t really know what you’re trying to arrive at, Obsidian. I didn’t say your statements are utterly baseless. What I said was that you built a straw man with regard to the manosphere (they are furious and whiny about fatties etc.) and that your arguments leave out important factors.

  • Höllenhund

    “The decline of male quality” is a curious subject indeed. Well, it’s curious for people who cannot connect the dots, anyway.

    On one hand, major conventional wars have basically disappeared. You know, nuclear weapons, demographic implosion and all that, we all know the reasons so I won’t discuss them. Basically everyone agrees this is a good development. One consequence, however, is that there’s no longer a need to train masses of men to become competent warriors. Which in turn means there aren’t as many manly men around. Shocking, right? LOL. And lots of people, especially women, just love to complain about that.

    Another development is the increase in industrial and agricultural productivity. Again, everybody thinks that’s fantastic. What this means, of course, is that there’s no need for masses of burly men to perform physical work anymore. The labor of many men is simply needless. Another excuse to complain about the lack of “manly men”.

    We also have “independent women”. They boast “they don’t need a man”. Fair enough, but this means men no longer have economic responsibility for women. Voilá! Tradcons and female journalists complain about sleazebag slacker men.

    We live in an advanced civilization, and most people kind of like it that way. However, this requires a huge number of beta drones performing mind-numbing jobs. Result: women complain that they’re surrounded by boring men with boring jobs. You don’t say!

    So, again, just what is all this complaining about “the decline of male quality” REALLY about, anyway? What do people actually want instead of it? Something like Congo or Liberia?

    It’s obvious that the complaints about men “being in crisis” are nothing but a pathetic circle-jerk of tradcons, journalists and lame-ass pundits who don’t actually care what the problem really is about and don’t actually want it to go away.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      In my view the biggest problem with the whining about the decline of men is that no one is willing to attribute it to feminism, which is what I believe is really going on, at least in the U.S. In my view, the Women’s Movement left men without a clear role or mandate in society. It also led to women gobbling up jobs previously held by men. Add in the shaming of masculinity and all things male-related, and you’ve got the ingredients for low motivation.

      In addition, the economy has shifted away from male jobs. What we do for a living (2012):

      wwd

      What we used to do for a living (1972):

      wwd2

      The pie is not big enough currently for men to gain without women losing, even though that is what it would take to restore equilibrium. I fear that instead we will continue to see women gain ground at the direct expense of men.

  • Ramble

    Scoot,
    For one, I really appreciate your honesty about your weight and the effect it has had in your life. Two, I completely cosign the “snowjob” that people, especially girls, get with regards to their weight and sexual attractiveness. It is a hobby horse that I ride here quite often.

    One thing that I find interesting about these subjects is that I so often find that these trite encouragements (“Just be yourself”, “You are beautiful just the way you are”, etc.) are there for the benefit of the giver-of-advice, not the receiver.

  • Höllenhund

    I’m just saying that an article pointing out the overall decline in female quality is rather one-sided. I don’t think either sex can claim the high ground here. Both sexes view the other as largely unfit for relationships.

    But…that’s exactly what that article – actually just a comment – was meant to explain: the vicious circle of male and female dysfunction, not “the overall decline in female quality”. This also explains the obesity epidemic, among other things.

  • Scoot

    @Ramble:
    Thank you. And I agree – those useless saccharine comments are not for the recepient’s benefit. Or, let me put it this way: in a best-case scenario, the person saying those things genuinely means them and just doesn’t know they’re doing more harm than good. Worse (and more likely), they know they’re full of crap but saying it anyway, either to make themselves feel better or diffuse an awkward situation (listening to someone complain about themselves is terrible – what are you supposed to say exactly, if you agree with them?) Either way, not helpful.

  • Ramble

    listening to someone complain about themselves is terrible – what are you supposed to say exactly, if you agree with them?

    And that is a good point. Knowing how to respond to someone who is complaining about something that is socially difficult, and accurate, is an important social skill to learn.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hollenhund, ms walsh:
    No chief, its you trying to deflect the truth of my statements. There are indeed significant corners of the manosphere where it is not at all uncommon to hear guys bemoaning “fatties” and so forth. Roissy and roosh take the lead in this regard but they are by no means alone.

    But, MY POINT, was that every last lady i specifically mentioned-NOT the stick aria giovanni, but women like queen latifah, katya zharkova, crystal renn and jennifer hudson, ALL OF EM, would have zero problem getting whatever they wantd with men-be that a ltr, a baby or just sex. Why?

    Because, lets all say it together now: dress size has nothing to do with what men universally find sexually attractive:

    Very pretty face
    Hourglass figure
    Youth

    Im telling you right now that gabi gregg would have little problem getting a one night stand or getting wifed up. A hot babe is a hot babe. Dress size has nothing to do with it.

    To ms walsh’s point about tucker max: madam, the boner test is all that matters in the end. And the boner test is a prima facie example of the truth of evolved male sexual psychology-that men can and will drastically lower their sexual standards if and when the circumstances warrant it. The reasons why tucker did it dont matter-the very fact he could pop wood in the presence of a “fattie” proves the efficiacy of evopsych, yet again.

    But if you aint buying that, how do you explain roosh? Look up his “the i have standards excuse” post and see for yourself how roosh in his own words says hes had sex with “hogs” because the hottest chicks in the club turned him down. Evopsych wins again.

    As ive said over at my place, if those vociferous voices in the sphere were really serious about the “fattie” issue theyd clamp down and “shame” the men because theyre the ones who are having sex with them. But we all know that wont work because men can and will bang whatevers available at the end of the day.
    Again: im out on the streets every single day. And what do i see every single day? Clearly bbw women with at least one baby in tow and often with a man in tow too. ALL the bbw women i know have no problem whatsoever getting sex or a ltr, often with what just about any woman would consider a decent to very handsome guy. Indeed if anything in my own life experience its the smaller gals who have the grief with attracting guys.

    I just get tired seeing these jokers on the web talking smack about how any woman with a double digit dress size is just hideous. Not only is it just downright false, but many of these same dudes are stompdown hypocrites, like tucker and roosh. A womans dress size dont have jack to do with whether she can get wood or a man on demand.

    I have huge problems with the way(s) these knuckleheads pimp and then distort evopsych; in fact im pretty sure few if any of em have actually cracked open a book on the topic, let alone actually talked to those who work in the area, like i have. They try to put across their cultural biases and pass them off as what men universally find desirable-but the problem with that is the fact that buss and others have proven that a womans weight, stand alone, is a CULTURAL thing-it has nothing to do with whether shes a dress size 16 or 18 or whatever. So long as shes relatively young, has an hourglass figure and a smoking hot drop dead gorgeous face shes good to go.

    The late mia amber davis is yet another case in point. By ANY objective male measure, the woman was damn pretty. And she was MARRIED at the time of her death.

    The neosoul singer and actress jill scott is another case in point. Not only does she have a son, but she was in a very long engagement prior to that.

    I hate liars like i said over on the ethics in dating thread-and the truth of the matter is, that many if not most of these guys in the sphere are lying through their teeth about their supposed aversion to “fatties”. Like i said, and ms scoot and any other similarly disposed lady here can back me up on this point, there be plenty of guys trying to get in their pants-only to talk about em like a dog to their homies afterwards. Im sick of it not the least of which is because its a sucker move.

    O.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “But I’d still say there’s a floor for attraction. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an obese men with a with a woman of higher SMV than his own.”

    Went to the park yesterday and saw plenty of exactly this. Big gut guy with pretty, trim girl. Usually the man was well put-together (grooming/dress) despite the weight. Also, people’s weight change over the course of a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Went to the park yesterday and saw plenty of exactly this. Big gut guy with pretty, trim girl. Usually the man was well put-together (grooming/dress) despite the weight. Also, people’s weight change over the course of a relationship.

      Really? Aside from sugar daddies, I haven’t seen this. Why would a pretty, trim girl do that? As you say, though, people change a great deal over time. My guess is that there’s much less of that visible in wedding photos.

  • OffTheCuff

    PS – Note when I say obese, I mean technical obseity. When I was 210# I was technically obese (not morbidly) but didn’t have a giant gut because of my body shape, chest, and waist size (44/38). I can tell now when people are obese but hide it well.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I got something more to say on this socalled “fattie” issue.

    Another thing that really pisses me off about the jokers who whine and moan and “shame” “fatties” is the fact that often the socalled “fatties” are the only ones giving them sex at all(!)-and then they turnaround and mock them to their friends. Talk about being ungrateful; talk about being an asshat; talk about being a jerk; talk about just being downright meanspirited.

    I dont like it-because like i said, often these gals are putting out and the least these dudes could do is show em a little bit of respect and gratitude. I dont like the “strong” whipping up on the weak, and its a stompdown b*tch move for these dudes to run these gals down behind their backs to their homies for cheap laughs. Its sickening and i wont remain silent about it.

    Yo man, the real deal is that many of these dudes are hardly a prize themselves-thats why you rarely if ever hear about any real talk of self improvement in these manosphere type spaces. No one is forcing you to deal with “fatties” in any way; there is no law passed by congress mandating that you do so. If you dont like em you dont have to date em, period dot.

    Trust me, women know the deal-you think ladies like ms scoot dont? By all accounts she sounds like a very nice person-whats the point in tearing her down? Like she dont do enough of that already. Neither she, nor any other “big girl” is throwing a net on you and dragging you back to their hut or something. Youre just mad because the women you really want to pump and dump you cant pull, in part because you lack the hard metrics, let alone game, to get er done-so you settle for gals like ms scoot. And instead of being minimally decent about it, you turnaround and show your a**. Its whacked, and its hightime somebody called you lame**es on it.

    Where i come from, a man doesnt lie on his d*ck-and thats exactly what many of these jokers are doing because after all the smack they talk to their homies online and off, they turn right around and hit up the socalled “fatties” so they can bust a nut right quick-then run back to their homies and joke about it before said homies get any ideas that theyre being serious about the gal.

    There are many things that are holding the manosphere back and this “fat girl jihad” nonsense is one of them. Its a “solution” trying to find a problem, because you dont have to deal with them if they repulse you so much. But the truth is, and ms walsh hit the nail on the head, most of thse guys aint no catch themselves.

    Like i said-if you cant treat the ladies like ms scoot with a minimum of respect and deceny, then just leave her and her sisters alone, fellas. No one deserves to be treated like that.

    And i wont stand by and let you do it with impunity either.

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I’m serious when I say this.

    Please delete Obsidians comment at #90

    I don’t know who the fuck he thinks he is to comment on me or about me, especially when I haven’t said anything to him to prompt it.

    It’s not even worth talking to him about it. I’d rather cut right to the chase.

    Delete it please, since his representation of me is not well-founded.

    Thanks in advance.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I am happy to oblige. I thought about deleting it earlier but figured you had the right to respond first. I have asked Obsidian to stop insulting commenters here, and will happily delete “brutal and raw” assessments of the character or appearance of others.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    You know what bunk dat-i got something else to say.

    You know, i know why dudes like tucker max, roissy and roosh do what they do-because and this comes right from buss himself: men are *heavily judged by other men by the female company he keeps*.

    This is why so many guys try to pull gals that they may not even really be into for real-because they trying to impress their homies. So, i get it.

    But guess what? I personally couldnt give a fat rodents behind what my or anyone elses “homies” thought of what i do on my dime and on my time.

    For one thing, your “homies”, unless theyre paying your rent, feeding you and putting clothes on your back, should just STFU. Especially since no one asked them wtf they “thought” of who you bang.

    In all my years out there on the bricks ive never had a man come at me about the type of woman i date or why; if anything ive been fixed up with women by my homies per my specs because they know what i like. And failing that they just dont say anything. And well they shouldnt-because i would quickly let em know that not only did i ask them for their “opinion” but i would then let them know that the next time they offer one, ill shove up where the sun dont shine.

    A man defines himself by what he do, not what other dudes do. If he does hes proven himself to be a follower and not a leader-by definition not an alpha male.

    Last week i took ms j to task on her “phony alphas” remark, but you know what, shes 100%-these knuckleheads aint no alphas. Far from it. And yea i mean tucker max, i mean roosh, i mean roissy, you can tell em all i said it. True alphas dont need to rundown others to make themselves look bigger/better; they just do them. If you dont like big girls cool; they aint that hard to avoid.

    But all that smack about em that these jokers pop, it just aint cool folks.

    And if you hear em doing it you can tell em that obsidian said to STFU.

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    Uh huh…………………………………………………………………………………

    (Yawn)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Let me say something else:

    Ms sassy, remember when i told you that i actually owe a deep debt of gratitude to women like you for shooting me down way back in the day? I meant it-getting nuked by women is the best thing that can ever happen to a guy-because for starters, it throws ice water on all that blue pill crap theyve been taught since a boy about women really think and act. And second, it provides a chance for a man to-and i quote words you directed at me last month-”up your game”.

    Indeed, ms sassy, indeed! But you see, heres the part you left out:

    The price also goes up with a mans game.

    When i get shotdown in the way(s) i discuss in my may 6th article for the good men project, i had to take errthang back to the drawing board-i had to get to the bottom of this male/female thing.

    So thats exactly what i did.

    Not only did i spend weeks just going to clubs and watch men and women interact with each other, but i also read every book i could get my hands on about relationships, sex, male and female differences etc et al.

    Then, i embarked on a self improvement regimen-for every suit or pair of shoes etc i got myself, i also got a book for my mind. I surrounded myself with the men i admired and borroed bits and pieces of them and incorporated into my own unique style.

    Everytime i worked out, the price went up.

    Everytime i got some killer wears, the price went up.

    Everytime i broadened my knowledge base, the price went up.

    Everytime i made more money or got a promotion, the price. Went. Up.

    And i turned my liability into a strength-i done lost count as to how many gals who swear up and down about how they dont dig short guys wind up at my pad lol. That includes ms brown sugah btw.

    Thats because, along with all the above that i did, i also identified and targeted my market. I know it like the back of my hand.

    Which explains, today, why im able to say that im presently in an ltr nearly 4 yrs running, and have had the same w/ladies who had originally turned me down or failing that, had never been with a guy like me. Im living proof that being nuked can indeed do wonders for a man, if he come at it right.

    What remains to be seen, madam, is whether you, can up your game. Given what mr zach said to you-quite tactfully i might add-it should be quite interesting to see indeed.

    Time, will most certainly tell…

    :)

    O.

  • Höllenhund

    Please delete Obsidians comment at #90

    Damn, that was the best comment of the entire thread! This just makes me yawn.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Damn, that was the best comment of the entire thread! This just makes me yawn.

      You need a hard reset. You’re too used to the mudslinging to enjoy normal conversation. In the meantime, a nap might do the trick.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Obsidian

    What Zach said to me had nothing to do with uping my game. He said that he would not willingly give up having sex with one of his options, even if he felt a strong connection to a different woman, because he hasn’t been penalized for it so far. He also said he wouldn’t mind taking his chances of alienating roughly 35% of women like me because it still left him with 65% of women to choose from. I understood what he said because everyone has a right to play their cards however they want.

    He doesn’t have to date women like me, and I don’t have to date men like him. There’s no problem there whatsoever.

    Also, I feel no need to tell you how tight my game is. I have never wanted for male suitors, white or otherwise. My main job and goal is to filter out men who aren’t good compatible matches for me. That’s what I’m focusing on right now.

    If I needed help attracting men, which I don’t, I’d turn to Susan, not you.

  • Ramble

    @108

    Susan, also, what percentage of those 1972 Gov’t jobs belonged to male bread-winners and how many in 2012 belong to Men?

    I am not simply implying that women have a higher percentage of jobs today than they did in 1972. I am saying that many of these jobs and offices are, basically, feminine places.

    The rise in large centralized powers (gov’t work, corporate work) and reduction in competitive enterprises and practices was a rise in feminized work and a feminized economy.

    Europe is showing us the way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I am saying that many of these jobs and offices are, basically, feminine places.

      I don’t have the gender split, but I agree.

  • Scoot

    Wow, this got out of hand fast.

    I will say this: Sure, the fact that men who wouldn’t consider dating me due to my weight (or women like me, or bigger) even bother to put effort into pursuing me at all (and, for lack of a better term, getting my hopes up) is frustrating. But it’s not like I’m sleeping with these guys, so while the blow to my self-esteem is a drag, the overall cost is not too high. I’m a grown-up – I can take it when people don’t like me.
    And I can tell you it’s almost amusing when I refuse to get physical with guys who won’t date me – it’s like they’ve never, ever heard that before. They don’t know what to do.
    However, I doubt that too many of the men who do bother to pursue fat girls for casual sex are mocking them behind their backs. That sort of behavior demonstrates poor character and any girl paying attention can smell that from a mile away. And hopefully avoid it. IMO, just because someone “settles” for what’s available and easy, that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily a bad person with horrible intentions.

    Amusing sidenote: I had a boyfriend once when I was very young who would complain about my weight (which, at the time, was only about 20 pounds above ideal). Then I found his stash of BBW porn.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms sassy:
    While youre of course correct, i do not recall my ever giving you any kind of “advice” on anything; i was merely thanking you for doing men a huge favor in fact, by nuking them. If they know how to handle it it can be the best thing to ever happen to them.

    At any rate, like i said, things on your end should prove quite interesting, indeed.

    *looks on with bemusement*

    O.

  • Ramble

    Amusing sidenote: I had a boyfriend once when I was very young who would complain about my weight (which, at the time, was only about 20 pounds above ideal). Then I found his stash of BBW porn.

    I’m confused. Did he want you to gain weight or lose it?

    Also, was the BBW porn the only porn he had?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms scoot:
    Lol @ your parting shot about your ex bf from back in the day; score yet another one for the o-man. Told ya. ;)

    But yea, my thing is this: if a woman has agreed to have sex with you as a man, it aint killing you to treat her nice. Thats all im saying. And part of treating her nice entails you not busting on her behind her back to your homies. Mike tyson went to jail behind his being a jerk; julian assange damn near went to jail by being a jerk. A woman spends the night with you, be cool and handle it like a gent. Even if it is a ons, you aint gotta be a knucklehead. Besides, true gamesmen never kiss and tell anyway.

    And while i hear what youre saying ms scoot, lemme tell ya from the guyside of things, that dudes do indeed clown big girls after theyve done bedded them. And the problem is that no one with a set of balls in the team will step to him about his bad behavior.

    Well, i was the kind of guy who did; i put it out there that if anybody on my team does that theyd have to back it up by taking me on outside. That woman you running down is someones daughter, sister, mama. It aint right and i simply wouldnt stand for it because i got sisters and i dont want anybody doing them like that and if i heard about theyd be seeing me.

    Btw: i know you didnt ask and youd be right to tell me to take a hike but…you might consider giving brothas a play. Its well know that we as a group tend to like em a bit juicier than the white brothers do. Its an option and since youre out in the chi i figure what the heck. Cant hurt.

    Holla back

    O.

  • Ted D

    “The price also goes up with a mans game.”

    Hell yeah! I’ve said here before, if I EVER find myself single again, things WILL NOT go down the way they did for my current SO. Not because I feel cheated, or because I’m unhappy, but simply because I know what I’m worth now, and my asking price will be much, much higher the next trip around.

    She lucked out by snagging me pre-red pill. As long as she treats me well, she will benefit from years of betatude coupled with my new found attitude on life. But the next woman that wants to hitch her wagon to my hook is going to have to work very hard to lock me down (God willing there IS no next…) Because I am now absolutely sure I would rather live alone than to live under someone else’s rule.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know what I’m worth now, and my asking price will be much, much higher the next trip around.

      Good for you, that is exactly as it should be.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    “mudslinging”? Madam, whatever do you mean? What i said at comment 90 was reliably sourced (i almost always include sources to back me up). Moreover it was not personal-indeed, i applied marketing 101 principles to what i said. Methinks this is yet another case of being “uncivil”, which really means, saying true stuff that the ladies dont wanna hear.

    Hmm…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      I didn’t mean you mudslinging! I only meant that Hollenhund hangs out at some “male space” blogs where it’s almost impossible to duck and cover. If you’re a woman, you will get shat on.

      Obs, listen, while you’ve been away doing some other stuff, the ‘sphere has gotten a heck of a lot darker. I’m telling you, Roissy is a pussycat by comparison. I’d take Roosh as a SIL before entering those gates of hell again.

  • Just1X

    @Ted

    “Because I am now absolutely sure I would rather live alone than to live under someone else’s rule.”

    You go guy! Love the new attitude, it suits you. Your having a plan B should be a good help in you never needing a plan B. Desperation is deeply beta, having an acceptable (didn’t say preferable necessarily) alternative is a great boost. I don’t read Athol’s site (divorced, not gonna do LTR again), but have you looked at it? Married Man Sex Life / Athol Kaye. I hear good things about it, from both sides of the gender-chasm.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Really? Aside from sugar daddies, I haven’t seen this. Why would a pretty, trim girl do that? As you say, though, people change a great deal over time. My guess is that there’s much less of that visible in wedding photos.”

    Yup. I think you and a lot of people here occupy the upper, elite, most competitive part of the SMP. I probably would not see such a thing wandering around Brookline or Boston, where I feel like an underdressed bum despite making 6 figures. However, out here in regular-Joe Syracuse, NY, or outside the 495 loop, see it all the time. Maybe you should get out and hobnob with the proles like I do…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Well, my husband grew up in Schenectady, NY so I see a fair number of trucker hats. But not the dynamic you describe.

      And the city of Boston is anything but wholly elite. I bet I could go to Southie right now and fail to find that combo. I’m headed to the Cape this weekend, it’s a real mix SES wise. I’m going to keep track :P

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Would you also mind deleting comments #134-135?

    I don’t know what part of “Don’t engage commenters in that tone” Obsidian doesn’t understand, so I figured I should just cut to the chase again.

    Why he feels the need to talk to me, especially when I don’t talk to him unless provoked by him, is beyond me.

    Thanks in advance again Susan.

  • Höllenhund

    the stick aria giovanni

    You’re delusional. A “stick” is someone like Lupe Fuentes:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_bCqWWIyiw

    Not to mention women who are equally thin but have practically no tits and butt.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #113:
    “@Sassy

    I am happy to oblige.”

    O: I’m sure. :)

    “I thought about deleting it earlier but figured you had the right to respond first.”

    O: Unfortunate that she could not do so by responding point for point refuting the facts and sources I provided. Hmm.

    “I have asked Obsidian to stop insulting commenters here, and will happily delete “brutal and raw” assessments of the character or appearance of others.”

    O: The problem with your itchy trigger finger is that I made no such “character assessments”; moreover, that which I mentioned appearance-wise about the ladies in question WERE THEIR OWN WORDS DESCRIBING THEMSELVES. If you like, I can find direct quotes.

    Once again, we see how Women “think” about brutal facts of life; not once did either of you actually examine the claims I made. I stand by everything I said; here’s a bullet list of what I said earlier:

    1. “Emotional escalation only works if the Woman in question is deemed hot enough by the Male Target; otherwise, it’s a wash.

    2. Given the variegated nature of the modern day American mating market, particularlities of one’s circumstance has to be taken into account. An Asian Woman can do things a Black Woman will have difficulty, to put it mildly, pulling off. This becomes particularly exacerbated, because it is very possible that both Women can be competing in the same or very similar pool of Men, in this case White.

    3. Asian Women have among, if not the highest mate value for Women out on the open American mating/marriage market.

    4. Black Women have among, if not the lowest mate value for Women out on the open American mating and marriage market.

    5. In order to be successful, one must assess their target market and plan accordingly. Part of an Asian Woman’s success on the American mating and marriage market is their overall tendency to select for traits that most Women in American life don’t find very attractive. This has resulted in Asian Women as a group having a virtual lock on a niche market of White Men. On the other hand, Women who tend to desire a more “traditional” suit of traits and metrics, can and will find themselves in a saturated market; they must then compete with othe groups of Women for this highly coveted market of Men. On this measure then, there is scant evidence that Black Women can meaningfully compete in said market.

    Again, my sources, in part, for the statements above:

    Ralph Richard Banks
    http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-White-People-American-Everyone/dp/0525952012

    Disintergration, Eugene Robinson
    http://www.amazon.com/Disintegration-The-Splintering-Black-America/dp/0385526547

    Ms. Walsh, do you agree or disagree with that which I have presented?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      Ms. Walsh, do you agree or disagree with that which I have presented?

      Your statistics on race in dating saying absolutely nothing about Sassy or any other individual. It is highly presumptuous to tell Sassy anything about who she attracts, and at what level of enthusiasm.

      It’s insensitive, but worse, you’re flat out wrong. For example, you took Hope at her word that she is not very attractive. Well, I’ve seen pics of her and she has a beautiful face and stunning figure. She’s very modest.

      For you to be telling people what their reality is based on your interactions here is ridiculous.

  • Höllenhund

    In my view the biggest problem with the whining about the decline of men is that no one is willing to attribute it to feminism

    It’s a feature, not a bug, as they say. The whole point of the “man up!” campaign is to stifle any debate about feminism by blaming all problems on men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s a feature, not a bug, as they say. The whole point of the “man up!” campaign is to stifle any debate about feminism by blaming all problems on men.

      I agree with this.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    One more thing.

    If he writes anymore posts directed towards me, go ahead and delete them as well.

    I see nothing useful that he could tell me, honestly.

    I’m off to theatre rehearsals, then I’m going on a date.

    Thanks Susan!

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Nothing I said about the ladies here were “insulting”; what I cited were well sourced facts, and do indeed inform the discussions obtaining here at HUS, or indeed anywhere “relationships” are discussed. As much as we would to believe otherwise, all manner of research data on these questions indicate that what will work for an Asian Woman will NOT necessarily work for a Black Woman – and no amount of gnashing teeth is going to change that.

    I stand by what I said. I ask those who rail against it to do so with countervailing evidence – not shrieks of censure.

    O.

  • Höllenhund

    I also request that any further comments of Kathy directed towards me get deleted. I see nothing useful that she could tell me, honestly, and she’s always mocking me.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Hollenhund #146:

    “I also request that any further comments of Kathy directed towards me get deleted. I see nothing useful that she could tell me, honestly, and she’s always mocking me.”

    O: LOL!!!

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ted # 127:

    Yea, I feel you, Man. Also, I saw your comment #1033 over on the Ethics in Dating thread, and I’m about to head on over there to respond to that in a few. In the meantime though, I thought you’d like the following YouTube clip – it sums up my position with my tagline “The price also goes up with a mans game.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VGoc8Wq5Zk&feature=related

    ;)

    O.

  • Tassie

    FYI, Obsidian, a plus-size model is only plus-size in relation to ‘standard’ models, not so much in relation to normal plus-size women, much like said standard models are not exactly representative of normal non-plus-size women.

    In terms of clothing that is actually available/sold to your average woman, the North American retail market begins plus sizes at 14-16; the UK retail market at 18-20 (which is roughly analagous due to the different sizing conventions).

    So of the women whose photos you linked, Gabi Gregg is the only one who’s genuinely plus-sized, at US 18.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Obs and Hollenhund,

    I have zero interest in turning this into a Roissy-style “let’s rate the chicks.” Take it to the manosphere please.

  • Höllenhund

    What does my request has to do with “rating the chicks”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What does my request has to do with “rating the chicks”?

      Obsidian was getting into evaluating various women’s SMV based on pics, etc. I don’t know how you would have responded, but he was definitely addressing you.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Thanks Susan!

    Also, I did go out on my date tonight, and it was fantastic. He was white (Shocking!) and he resembles James Franco a bit. I was not disappointed in the least.

    He and I have already made plans to hang out again this weekend. I’ll keep you posted.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Well, i see theres much to respond to here, and i shall, very soon!

    Stay tuned… :)

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh:

    Lots to respond to here; please bear with me. :)

    “Your statistics on race in dating saying absolutely nothing about Sassy or any other individual.”

    O: I beg to differ, madam; it says quite a bit about them both. For example, my original post noted the fact that their respective realities did fall right in line with what the data on this states; one is currently married with a minimum of dating and fits and starts; the other is not (despite a good bit of same).

    “It is highly presumptuous to tell Sassy anything about who she attracts, and at what level of enthusiasm.”

    O: I made no such assertion. I was dealing with what the data said.

    “It’s insensitive, but worse, you’re flat out wrong. For example, you took Hope at her word that she is not very attractive. Well, I’ve seen pics of her and she has a beautiful face and stunning figure. She’s very modest.”

    O: If you will kindly recall, I noted the FACT that Black Women as a group, have the highest indices of self-reported self-esteem, while Asian Women have among, if not the least in this regard. Moreover, I relayed Ms. Hope’s exact words/sentiments she stated about herself. Lastly, as has been noted and pointed out to you several times, Women as a rule aren’t very good judges as to what Men do or don’t find sexually attractive about Women, so you’ll please forgive me if I find your “assessment” just a weebit suspect.

    In truth Ms. Walsh, my point wasn’t what I did or did not think of the appearance of either lady in question; my point was that despite the “bigging up” of oneself on the one hand, and the “downplaying” of oneself on the other, the fact remained that the latter – which also just happened to be Asian – wound up married. The other, had not, to date – and, keep in mind, that I made note of the fact that the principles were contemporaries of each other.

    You are more than free to your opinions. You are not free to make up out of whole cloth your own facts – even if the forum is yours. :)

    “For you to be telling people what their reality is based on your interactions here is ridiculous.”

    O: No more “ridiculous” than the entire premise of this effort called Hooking Up Smart – because you do the exact same thing every. Single. Day. Post after post sees you citing reams of data about the dating and mating lives of the young college educated, and you indeed use that data to inform and advise your readers. Have I misinterpreted you – or is this yet another instance of you killing the messenger instead of being intellectually honest in grappling with the message? :)

    “Obs and Hollenhund,

    I have zero interest in turning this into a Roissy-style “let’s rate the chicks.” Take it to the manosphere please.”

    O: There is nothing to “take to the manosphere” – Hollenhund and I were not “rating chicks”, although if we were it would be nothing different than any other Man does all day errday – including some of your most staunch male readers/commenters. We both know of the primacy of a Woman’s looks to Men in their considerations of mate selection, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE LONGHAUL, which is the ostensible purpose of this blog.

    At any rate, you are gravely mistaken about Hollenhund and my conversation, madam; please review them:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/03/hookinguprealities/i-didnt-mean-to-blow-up-your-spot/#comment-133078

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/03/hookinguprealities/i-didnt-mean-to-blow-up-your-spot/#comment-133093

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/03/hookinguprealities/i-didnt-mean-to-blow-up-your-spot/#comment-133111

    That was my point; your potential insecurity about female physical appearance is not only not my topic, it is not a problem I can or should solve.

    “@Obs

    I didn’t mean you mudslinging! I only meant that Hollenhund hangs out at some “male space” blogs where it’s almost impossible to duck and cover. If you’re a woman, you will get shat on.”

    O: Agreed; I have some incisive questions for Mr. Hollenhund shortly; I think you will enjoy them. Stay tuned! :)

    “Obs, listen, while you’ve been away doing some other stuff, the ‘sphere has gotten a heck of a lot darker. I’m telling you, Roissy is a pussycat by comparison. I’d take Roosh as a SIL before entering those gates of hell again.”

    O: I don’t doubt it – all the more reason why you should caefully read the afoementioned links of my “big girls” statements. They really do pull the covers off of what the socalled “sphere” is really all about…

    “Really? Aside from sugar daddies, I haven’t seen this. Why would a pretty, trim girl do that? As you say, though, people change a great deal over time. My guess is that there’s much less of that visible in wedding photos.”

    Here is one of many photos of Rick Ross:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?start=102&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=509&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsol&tbnid=LpkemYmlz553OM:&imgrefurl=http://bossip.com/275044/young-jeezy-fires-shots-at-rick-ross-on-his-own-jawn-got-dayyumm-hoe-you-got-them-a-and-tittays/&docid=L3EwouobD8r7AM&imgurl=http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/jeezy-rick-ross.jpg&w=600&h=480&ei=81P4T6v7E8jG6wHnq_npBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=400&vpy=4&dur=9224&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=45&ty=220&sig=107451103830478191604&page=8&tbnh=151&tbnw=209&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:102,i:64

    Here’s a pic of his latest squeeze:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/Aug%252009/272a6d852.jpg&imgrefurl=http://theybf.com/2009/09/09/rick-ross-got-engaged&h=600&w=400&sz=63&tbnid=RxLPnNIf8BWrhM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=63&zoom=1&usg=__9TW8ufSdNk4HvRGHzZa6qXwi8Rc=&docid=JtuDgRKrjs44PM&sa=X&ei=zVT4T5urLOjo6wHb3LjBBg&ved=0CF0Q9QEwAg

    Here’s another pic of Ross booed up with a young lady:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rosselise.jpg&imgrefurl=http://the305.com/2011/01/26/rick-ross-new-girlfriend-elise-neal/&h=747&w=500&sz=205&tbnid=UWQjqTvVQt4KxM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=60&zoom=1&usg=__Fld79T7QpoRtbgDhms-KE-3MDn0=&docid=OIwqEvSIxHYjYM&sa=X&ei=cFT4T6W5Ianq6wHag4HmBg&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAQ&dur=950

    More on Rick Ross here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Ross

    There’s also Big Pun, Heavy D, Barry White…the list goes on and on. The “Fred & Wilma” combo is indeed quite common, Ms. Walsh. *shrugs*

    “Obsidian was getting into evaluating various women’s SMV based on pics, etc. I don’t know how you would have responded, but he was definitely addressing you.”

    O: False. I was addressing the ridiculous claims of the manosphere with their silly complaints about “fatties” and how supposedly hideous they were. My contention was that not only was that false, if anything the evidence points to the fact that such Women have no problem getting sex, having babies or indeed getting LTRs/hubbies if they so desire.

    Going back to the original point…

    Ms. Walsh, the premise of your original “Emotional Escalation” post, since taken down but still discussed to some extent in this current thread, is that Women can (and should) “emotionally escalate” a potential relationship with a Man, with an eye toward getting longterm commitment. Please advise if I am wrong?

    If I am indeed correct, my response to such a notion, is that your post was, ironically enough, quite “presumptive” itself; it presumed that the Women/couples involved were White, at least nominally middle class, and, most importantly, THE WOMAN WAS CONSIDERED HOT ENOUGH FOR THE MALE TARGET IN QUESTION. “Emotionally escalating” doesn’t mean Jack if the Man doesn’t find you hot enough to begin with; that was my point to which Ms. Scoot originally responded – in the affirmative, I might add.

    My reason for mentioning two lady regulars here at HUS was to highlight the fact that without taking vey important mitigating factors into account, your “emotional escalation theory” is cast into serious doubt – unless you want to argue that the roughly half-dozen “case studies” you cited did indeed include, or were entirely made up of, couples involving Women akin to the ladies I mentioned in my now deleted posts. If on the other hand your case examples were culturally/racially/ethnically homogeneous, I then say in response that what I noted – about the realities of the modern day American mating marketplace, among other things – is not only apt and on-point, but reveals glaring holes in your theory that must be addressed and need to be worked out.

    If you will kindly recall, upthread I repeated my thanks to certain Women who “nuke” Men (carrying over from the recent Ethics in Dating post); my argument was that being nuked by a Woman is the best thing that can ever happen to a Man, for various reasons. One of them, is to force the Man to, and I directly quoted back to one of the ladies words uttered to me, ‘up his Game’. Putting of “upping his Game” entails understanding the realities of the modern day American mating market – which includes identifying a Man’s desired target market, as well as isolating contributing factors that can either aid or hamper his success thereof.

    When I first discovered Game as its currently known some four years ago, one of my very first questions was “How does this work wrt Black Women”? And to be honest, I got no straight answers – this was to be expected, since the Seduction Community, then and now, is primarily White, and as such, the focus and interest will remain on White and “honorary White” Women, such as Asian Women, etc et al. Sistas, for the most part, simply aren’t considered (which goes back to what I was saying about the perceived mate value of Sistas in general, especially by/on the part of White Men – this is very well documented). However, Sistas were MY preferred target market; so, since there was no known specific writings on how to apply say, Mystery’s Method on them, I set out to “mod” his and others’ systems and incorporated it into what I was already doing (Cafe Date Theory), and take it from there – and I have found it very, very effective.

    It was effective, because I isolated those things in Game that DO NOT WORK WITH BLACK WOMEN, FOR THE MOST PART. For example, me wearing black fingernail polish ain’t gonna get it – nor can chatting Black Women up at random, even in clubs. Black people in general don’t tend to be “chatty” like that; usually, you have to know them and/or their “people” in order to make things happen. Failing that, YOU HAVE TO EITHER BE THE MAN, OR BE PERCEIVED AS SUCH. This isn’t necessarily the case with straightahead “White” Game.

    Another major thing with Sistas that isn’t necessarily the case with White Women – even those Black Women who choose to “date out”-is that the “eye candy factor” is much more important. Sistas put a much higher premium on a Man’s physical appearance – being fit, dressing well, or at the very least, having a “presence”. I’ve found this to be the case much, much more than their White and especially their Asian sisters. Finally, another major factor to be the case with Sistas more than White or Asian Women is they tend to prefer what is more known to be “Direct Game” than “Indirect Game”, which is in truth, what the Mystery Method actually is. Black Women like strong, direct, upfront approaches, where they can say “yea or nay” right there on the spot. This requires, of course, that the Gamesman in question must “come correct” as Sistas will often say.

    All of this was essential to my success; simply aping Game as it was known and understood by my White and Asian brothers simply would not work – trust me, I’ve tried it. My mods have proven to be very effective for my target market.

    You’ve even noted that all Men aren’t the same, last month on the thread where Ms. Sassy and I had our debate; you speficially recounted the dating experiences of your daughter in the DC area. She had the interest of Asian guys but she friendzoned all of them; White, Jewish and Black guys then dated her, and she found that the Brothas’ Game tends to “come on too strong”. Clearly, those Brothas weren’t calibrating, LOL – because I could have told any one of them that they can’t go balls-out on the kind of SWPL White Girl your daughter is, like they do a Delta Sista in Adams Morgan or over on Z Street.

    Knowing your market, is key, Ms. Walsh – as a Wharton MBA, I know you would agree. If you do, the question becomes, why did you *really* takedown what I said?

    Hmm?

    ;)

    Holla back

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      one is currently married with a minimum of dating and fits and starts; the other is not (despite a good bit of same).

      I’m not going to go through all the examples, this one should suffice. Sassy is 23 and constantly gets asked out on dates by white men. She does not intend to have children so feels no pressure re fertility. She has clearly stated she will not settle, and is happy to stay single if she doesn’t meet the right man.

      Hope is 26. She approached dating with a completely different history and framework.

      Neither woman is typical of anything.

      Post after post sees you citing reams of data about the dating and mating lives of the young college educated, and you indeed use that data to inform and advise your readers. Have I misinterpreted you — or is this yet another instance of you killing the messenger instead of being intellectually honest in grappling with the message?

      I use data to inform my readers. For example, in the post “Your risk of divorce may be lower than you think.” I provide information about correlations, and advise people to formulate their own strategies with this data in mind. I also use data to debunk myths – including the pernicious rumor in the ‘sphere that all women are sluts.

      I do not use data to predict what will happen to someone’s marriage, or that a male reader who is 5’4″ will never find a mate, or that an Asian male is bound to fail in the American SMP.

      I am all about working on the margins to help individuals determine what will work best for them. Means and medians are more useful in describing the environment, i.e. SMP than they are in predicting future outcomes.

      As for Freds and Wilmas, no doubt there are plenty when Fred is rich and famous. I do not see schlubs on the street getting with “thin, pretty women.” It’s about relative SMVs – though ugly, Ross has other traits that increase his.

      I have no comment on what is or isn’t true for Sistas, as I do not striate by race here. I am also aware that several of my black female readers date or are married to white men, so your observations won’t resonate for most readers here.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Tassie #143:
    “FYI, Obsidian, a plus-size model is only plus-size in relation to ‘standard’ models, not so much in relation to normal plus-size women, much like said standard models are not exactly representative of normal non-plus-size women.

    In terms of clothing that is actually available/sold to your average woman, the North American retail market begins plus sizes at 14-16; the UK retail market at 18-20 (which is roughly analagous due to the different sizing conventions).

    So of the women whose photos you linked, Gabi Gregg is the only one who’s genuinely plus-sized, at US 18.”

    O: No doubt, Ms. Gregg would be more in line with what one is likely to encounter on the streets of NYC, Philly, Chitown, B’More, Beantown, etc et al. Having said that, it is also undeniable that she is quite attractive – as I noted previously, she has a boyfriend in one of the most brutal dating markets for Women on the planet.

    This is because despite her dress size, Ms. Gregg clearly possesses the attributes Men across cultures have deemed sexually desirable: youth, a gorgeous face and an hourglass figure (in other words, a clearly defined waist in relation to her hips). It also doesn’t hurt that she is quite well endowed.

    All of which is to say, yet again, that a Woman’s dress size is wholly irrelevant as to whether she can “catch” Men. What matters is whether she has the aforementioned attributes.

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Hope #10:
    “That’s too bad. It was a really good post and discussion! In my opinion acts of emotional escalation are not calculation or manipulation. It’s genuine if you feel it.”

    o: That’s interesting; tell me, how do you feel about Game – is that “manipulative” or “calculation” to you? If so/not why? Please explain?

    “I used to be a contributor to the Girl Game blog that has since become inactive, and my husband knew about it. He just chuckled and thought it was amusing.”

    O: I agree with your hubbie; amusing it was indeed.

    “Most guys would be flattered that a girl is thinking of all sorts of ways to win him over and make him happy. Only the most cold-hearted of men would not melt knowing a girl is trying so hard just for him.”

    O: Or the guy that deemed you not hot enough to be sweating him like that.

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Scoot #73:

    “@Obsidian (your first comment, toward me):
    True. Absolutely true.

    I think one of the biggest disservices anybody ever did me – perhaps one of the biggest disservices done to a lot of young girls, or people in general – is to say from a young age, “Oh, doesn’t matter what you look like – someone will love you just the way you are.””

    O: No, it’s definitely a female thing – “you/he should love me for my mind!”. Ever notice something about the Women who say that? They tend to be…homely, at the very least. Feminism in many ways, is an attempt to level the playing field for homely Women. Sounds simplistic, even mean, but many, many Women know its true.

    “Well, that’s true – someone always will. Seldom the people you actually want, though. And being an overweight woman doesn’t just mean that you’ll end up with an overweight guy, because we all know that weight doesn’t have quite the same deleterious effect on a man’s SMV as it does on a woman’s. So you’ll end up compromising in other areas.”

    O: What “other areas” would you have to “compromise”? I’m just curious. Also, let me ask, please: what kind of guy do you want?

    “I’m overweight. Not so much that I can’t shop at normal stores, but enough that it gives many men pause no matter how awesome I behave or how “pretty” I am.”

    O: Again – what *kind* of Men are we talking about here? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re in the Chi, right? Lots of different kinds of people there – have you dated around?

    “I wish with every fiber of my being that someone had told me when I was young what an EMERGENCY that is, if my goal was to settle down with a good guy, which it always has been. But instead, you’re told it doesn’t matter, and heaven help you if you ever talk about losing weight to attract a partner – that’s the “wrong reason” and there is a LOT of shaming directed at you from other women.”

    O: Yea. Female intrasexual competition is FIERCE, end of. You getting in shape and looking good clutters the field. Simple as that. No Woman is going to be brutally honest (winks at Ms. Walsh) about this, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Have you read Buss’ The Evolution of Desire? He talks about this issue at considerable length. I think you would enjoy it.

    “In fact, that’s an understatement – there’s a crushing, overwhelming amount of shaming heaped on any women from all angles anytime she admits that looking your best is the most important thing to do (since it’s how you get your foot in the door). I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for folks to admit that they want to look “hot” for the opposite sex.”

    O: BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN IN THOSE GROUPS CAN’T CUT IT TO GET THE GUYS THEY REALLY WANT. The whole “settling” thing really is painful for Women, for what should by now be obvious reasons (again, read your Buss). Men have a much easier time of “settling” because of our evolved sexual psychology. But for Women – especially Women who lived and breathed nothing but “you can have it all!” etc et al, this is a very, very intensely bitter pill going down. It is what it is.

    “I don’t sit around and wonder why I’m single – it’s no mystery to me. So now I get to work on that like it’s my full-time job and hope that I’ll be succesful and still have enough of my youth left to enjoy it and reap the full benefits.”

    O: I don’t think things are as dire as you make them out to be – unless you’ve truly dated around. A big problem I’ve observed with Women is that they tend to have very narrow ideas of who they want to date and why. In fairness, Black Women have taken the lead insofar as being encouraged to broaden their horizons and so forth. Again, who and what do you want, and have you actually dated a wide swath of Men?

    “As for your other comments about larger ladies never wanting for wood – this is also true. I’m a size 14 – maybe a 16 in an unforgiving brand. Not enormous, but certainly a far cry from my ideal weight. There is no shortage whatsoever of sexual interest from men – some of whom are way, way above my level. Very handsome, charming men will line up around the block to P&D a fat girl, but when it comes time to get serious, it’s nothing but crickets. No thanks; I don’t play, and I try not to let myself be flattered by the attention, because it’s insincere.”

    O: Well, good for you! It’s a good thing to have a good sense of what you want and so forth. Of course, you have to balance that out against the costs of being down for the cause. Of course, I can’t tell you what to do on that note; no one can. I’m just real proud of you for seeing what the deal is and avoiding it.

    “I’ve worked hard to improve myself in just about every other way, and I have the advantages of a decent build, a decent face, feminine fashion sense, pretty hair, domestic skills, what I hope is a pleasant demeanor and realistic expectations. And it’s still a huge struggle. I can’t even imagine what it’s like for some.”

    O: With all due respect…if you’ll forgive me…I have to ask, by what, exactly, do you mean by “a decent build” and “a decent face”? By now you’ve seen what I’ve said about Hot Big Girls; real rap, if you are one, you really don’t have a problem attracting guys for more than a roll in the hay. Then again, it could be that you’re fishing in the wrong pond – like I said before, Brothas are well known to get with ladies of more generous proportions, and we make no bones about it. Morreover, and let’s be honest, quite a few Brothas highly value a White Woman (assuming you are White) on their arm. It is, what it is; might as well exploit that to its fullest advantage.

    “Amusing sidenote: I had a boyfriend once when I was very young who would complain about my weight (which, at the time, was only about 20 pounds above ideal). Then I found his stash of BBW porn.”

    O: This is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT for any Woman to consider in her dealings with a Man – if at all possible, try and see if you can examine his “stash” – his porn stash. Just about every Man has one, and if you’re able to get hold of it, it can and will give you crucial clues as to how he thinks and what turns him on.

    If you find that most of his stash features Women who look NOTHING LIKE YOU, you. Are. In. Trouble.

    If, on the other hand, you find that the guy’s stash features Women who are at the least similar to you, then you know his attraction to you is much more real and congruant – remember, it is very possible to lie on their d*cks, ladies. You saw this fisrthand, Ms. Scoot – and which just goes to my previous point about how guys will go after girls they really aren’t into, but bow to peer pressure. Buss talks about this, too, again you really should check it out.

    Holla back – and good luck

    O.

  • Jackie

    @Scoot, Saywhaat
    “I want to believe the men in this thread, really I do! But I think that there is a hidden/underlying component that isn’t being considered, such as back when the men were saying that they loved it when girls approached them”
    =======
    I think part of it is, there are some factors missing. Imagine getting this awesome treatment… but from a girl you were only “meh” about. I think these kind of behaviors can help turn a smaller flame into a roiling boil. But they can’t light a wet match, you know?

    I say this as someone who has done things like bake cookies for a guy I was seeing, after he mentioned he loved homemade baking. Result: He ended up hooking up with some promiscuous chick who proofread for the Utne Reader. Oh well!

    For me, trying to stay balanced is key– not making a huge gesture or huge deal of some guy until there are signs it’s a really good match. Small stuff that I’m not overly attached to. Remembering a preference, sending a cool link, little things that I would be OK with doing for absolutely no return. It kind of stinks to have to be so Zen about it though :(

  • Jackie

    @Scoot (#73)
    “So now I get to work on that like it’s my full-time job and hope that I’ll be succesful and still have enough of my youth left to enjoy it and reap the full benefits.”
    =======
    Hi Scoot,

    This is purely anecdotal, but I would like to offer you “A Tale of Two College Girls”: The story of me and my best friend from elementary school. She moved away before we were teens, but stayed in touch, seeing each other periodically.

    BF was super extroverted and really nice. And about 100 lbs overweight by college. She focused on being incredibly social in her “target market,” religious guys, as she was a pastor’s daughter. She ended up being pursued by a similarly-sized guy from their praise group (though about 4 inches shorter than her).

    I don’t care for the “1-10″ system to judge men or women– I think it’s cruel. But people here would probably put them on the low end of the scale: He was short and heavy, she was tall and heavier, they wore whatever fit them (regardless of form or fashion) and were thrilled to have found each other.

    Meanwhile, I grew up descending from women who were *extremely* focused (or forced to focus) on appearance. I have been put in front of the mirror and had my flaws pointed out extensively from a very young age by relatives. My own mom had been through such hell, that she treated the looks issue as non-existent and focused on “character.”

    I was maid of honor at her wedding. Leading up to their nuptials, she and other people in the wedding party kept hitting on me and even my friend saying, You’re so pretty, if I were a guy I’d ask you out. Meanwhile, the guy I was seeing had dumped me for some chick named Heather who was “easy.”

    My friend and her husband may not be “the beautiful people” but they are *happy* and have a great marriage. Knowing yourself. finding your niche and then going for a guy who is a great match worked really well for her. Me? I’m contemplating buying Mace to deal with weirdos and still searching for a good guy who truly loves me.

    Again, purely anecdotal! But don’t think that being skinny is the end-all, be-all, Scoot. Self-respect is *always* a flattering look. :)

  • Jackie

    @Obsidian (#111, 113, 115)

    Wow, these were *excellent* posts. Well done, sir!

    My opinion is that we should all do the best we can with what we have. I also would be more than happy (even though it will *never* happen) for looks to become less important in our culture. Even if hurts my prospects.

    I speak from personal experience: Both my parents underwent medical issues that seriously affected their looks. People treated them like CRAP. They laughed at my dad (brain tumor and surgery destroyed some facial muscles) and avoided and gawked at my mom (the excess bilirubin from liver cancer turned her skin and eyes yellow).

    I have never forgotten it. I never shall.

    I have often wondered why so many guys are so obsessed with heavier women. If they really didn’t like them, wouldn’t they just avoid them?
    I think Jason7773 (maybe?) posted that he would rather have less-enjoyable sex with a conventially hot chick that impressed his buddies than truly great sex with a less attractive woman.

    This completely blew my mind: That some men’s sexual pleasure is outweighed by the approval of other men. I think homosocial is the right word? That that kind of intimacy and social approval trumps sexual pleasure is behind some of this obsession with bigger chicks, I am convinced.

  • Tassie

    Jackie @ 157

    I have often wondered why so many guys are so obsessed with heavier women. If they really didn’t like them, wouldn’t they just avoid them?
    I think Jason7773 (maybe?) posted that he would rather have less-enjoyable sex with a conventially hot chick that impressed his buddies than truly great sex with a less attractive woman.

    This completely blew my mind: That some men’s sexual pleasure is outweighed by the approval of other men. I think homosocial is the right word? That that kind of intimacy and social approval trumps sexual pleasure is behind some of this obsession with bigger chicks, I am convinced.

    Homosocial, yes, and I agree with you. I actually think that’s at the core of a lot of PUA stuff – it’s not about the sex, it’s about getting bragging rights after the sex.

    Someone here – don’t recall which thread, sorry! – posted a link to the 3 July blog post on CaptianCapitalism (dot) blogspot (dot) CA, called ‘The Costs of Playerhood’, which is interesting, and really kind of screams homosociality. A quote:

    “You just see some guy driving a Ferrari down the street and envy him. YOu don’t see the drama and psychological BS the poor guy has to pay maintaining such a high-maintenance vehicle.”

    He seems to have burnt out on the PUA scene and embraced MGTOW instead. I’d argue from the descriptions in the post that he didn’t have an actual meaningful encounter with a woman he LIKED the entire time he was PUA-ing. How sad.

  • Tassie

    Clarification to 158 – not just about the sex, but also bragging rights. Missed an important word in there, lol.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Obsidian and @Hope
    “Most guys would be flattered that a girl is thinking of all sorts of ways to win him over and make him happy. Only the most cold-hearted of men would not melt knowing a girl is trying so hard just for him.”

    O: Or the guy that deemed you not hot enough to be sweating him like that.

    I’m coming out of lurking to thank Obsidian for this crucial point.

  • j

    For example, you took Hope at her word that she is not very attractive. Well, I’ve seen pics of her and she has a beautiful face and stunning figure. She’s very modest.

    Too modest, IMHO.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #162:
    “I’m not going to go through all the examples, this one should suffice.”

    O: OK.

    “Sassy is 23 and constantly gets asked out on dates by white men.”
    She does not intend to have children so feels no pressure re fertility. She has clearly stated she will not settle, and is happy to stay single if she doesn’t meet the right man.”

    O: ALL of which are right in line with what BOTH Ralph Richard Banks AND Eugene Robinson have said about Black Women of Ms. Sassy’s cohort; again, I offer the Amazon links to their books:

    Banks
    http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-White-People-American-Everyone/dp/0525952012

    Robinson
    http://www.amazon.com/Disintegration-The-Splintering-Black-America/dp/0385526547

    And, I can offer more information/data to backup what I’ve said upon request. :)

    As for the notion of a Woman constantly getting asked out on dates, you have gone on record yourself in saying that they are in essence “shopping around” – *for Women, I might add, and that you left out*. The realities of the SMP are such that relatively few Women *won’t* get asked out. If that weren’t the case, all the online dating sites wouldn’t be doing very brisk business – including the one you recently featured on HUS…

    “Hope is 26. She approached dating with a completely different history and framework.”

    O: Part of that “framework” being belonging to a group that has quite high mating value in the modern day American mating market; Asian Women’s marital rates are quite high, and insofar as IR marriage is concerned is the highest for American Women for more than three decades running at this point. This is common knowledge, easily proofed by the US Census. I am sure you know this.

    “Neither woman is typical of anything.”

    O: All the data begs to differ, madam. With all due respect.

    “I use data to inform my readers.”

    O: Indeed you do; I was merely pointing out how it might be refined to address the particularities of the American mating market per the readers of the blog.

    “For example, in the post “Your risk of divorce may be lower than you think.” I provide information about correlations, and advise people to formulate their own strategies with this data in mind. I also use data to debunk myths – including the pernicious rumor in the ‘sphere that all women are sluts.”

    O: Exactly where in the ‘sphere are these penicious rumors heard, may I ask? I ask because, as a regular contributor to The Spearhead, I do not recall hearing *that* particular rumor. Thanks!

    “I do not use data to predict what will happen to someone’s marriage, or that a male reader who is 5’4″ will never find a mate, or that an Asian male is bound to fail in the American SMP.”

    O: Just because you don’t doesn’t mean that the data doesn’t hold any predictive power. The fact is that a short Man will have a much harder time procuring a mate, and that an Asian Man, same.

    “I am all about working on the margins to help individuals determine what will work best for them. Means and medians are more useful in describing the environment, i.e. SMP than they are in predicting future outcomes.”

    O: When you’re one of those parties on the outside looking in, the words are little more than a distinction without much of a difference.

    “As for Freds and Wilmas, no doubt there are plenty when Fred is rich and famous. I do not see schlubs on the street getting with “thin, pretty women.” It’s about relative SMVs – though ugly, Ross has other traits that increase his.”

    O: The problem is Ms. Walsh, with all due respect, I’ve seen many, many everyday “Fred & Wilma” couples. Moreover, at least one other Male commenter has told you the same thing, and we don’t know each other. So, while the wealthy and powerful Big Man can get himself a Wilma, the Big Man of more modest means can get one, too. I for one see it all the time.

    “I have no comment on what is or isn’t true for Sistas, as I do not striate by race here.”

    O: That’s fine, as I didn’t ask you for one. I was making a point about the realities of a variegated American mating market, and the primacy of keeping that in mind when discussions like this arise. What I think might be better to say is that your concern isn’t “Sistas” – at least Sistas who have an active interest in dating Brothas. Which is perfectly your right.

    “I am also aware that several of my black female readers date or are married to white men, so your observations won’t resonate for most readers here.”

    O: Evidently you missed the above:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/03/hookinguprealities/i-didnt-mean-to-blow-up-your-spot/comment-page-2/#comment-133353

    :)

    O.