httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ddz7MZCMG8
“Watching You Watch Him”
When someone gets stuck in the friend zone, they have entered into an exchange friendship that isn’t even. The other person is getting everything he/she wants…but the person stuck in the friend zone isn’t. In a nutshell, the friend zone person sold himself or herself short. They gave their “friend” everything, without making sure they got everything they wanted in return.
Nicholson advises hanging in there and giving it a shot using some techniques to increase your perceived value:
1. Be less interested.
How do you do that? By making it clear you’re willing to end the friendship if you don’t get what you want.
2. Be scarce.
Give the object of your affection an opportunity to experience (and hopefully mourn) your absence.
3. Pursue other people.
It’s not uncommon for someone to realize they have feelings for the first time when they experience pangs of jealousy.
4. Stop giving and start taking.
People like you more when they help you out. Get them to do stuff for you, and you’ll feel less taken for granted.
5. Reinforce only what you like.
Ignore them when you don’t like the way you’re being treated.
I have a few other ideas:
Make your interest known.
If you’re interested from the start, don’t settle for being a platonic pal. That road leads nowhere.
If the attraction is not returned, bounce. Even if you can’t avoid seeing the person, you can psychologically separate by discouraging all intimacy.
Look good.
Girls:
Men are extremely visual – it’s their GPS for female fertility.
Get into shape.
Use makeup only to enhance your natural appearance. Less is more. You’re not fooling anyone with heavy makeup, at least not for long.
Dress in a feminine way. Use the HUS 1-in-3 Rule: You can emphasize boobs, butt or legs, but only one at a time. If you wear a short, tight skirt, the blouse should be loose and modest. If you show a bit of cleavage, leave room for mystery below the waist. If your butt looks great in jeans, focus on that. Women look slutty when they show off everything they’ve got at once. Following the 1-in-3 Rule will cause guys to take you more seriously, and for those of us who aren’t perfect, focusing on our best feature all the time is the way to go.
Guys:
Guys can compensate with other qualities, but there is no question that you only help yourself when you are fit and dress well. Dressing well doesn’t mean avoiding casual clothes – a guy can look awesome in shorts and a t-shirt. You should wear clothes that flatter your body, and they should look neat.
Don’t wear cologne or use heavily scented products. We need to sniff you out to know if we are attracted to you, and if you mask your natural scent, you’re taking a prime source of information away from us. This only hurts you – we miss your good natural smell, and your cologne will only mask an incompatible scent temporarily before our gut tells us we’re genetic misfits.
Be awesome by being interesting.
Fill your life with people and pursuits that you enjoy.
Cultivate passions.
Get good at things, and show off by sharing your interests.
Be realistic.
Don’t shoot yourself in the foot by pining for someone with higher SMV than your own. If you laughingly tell your friends you doubt you have a shot with such a great catch, stop laughing and accept it as truth.
The best approach is to prevent yourself from getting into the zone at all, but if you find yourself there, the above strategies may be helpful. I’d put a firm timeline on it, though. Maybe a month tops. If that doesn’t shake things up, drive on.
{ 153 comments… read them below or add one }
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As someone who just obliterated a frienzone and then refused to be put back in that box by walking away, i think all of this is decent advice.
At the end of the day, if your life is being affected negatively by being in the zone… bring your feelings to the surface and prepare to walk away for good if you don’t get the answer you’re looking for.
You are not required to fall on your sword to make someone else’s life more comfortable at the expense of your own.
If your butt looks great in jeans, focus on that.
Wear a lot more skirts and dresses and don’t wear pants as often as you currently do.
Way too many girls wear pants way too often.
Jeans can definitely look nice, but err on the side of feminine versus masculine clothes.
If you laughingly tell your friends you doubt you have a shot with such a great catch, stop laughing and accept it as truth.
Or, work on your inner game and tell that little bitch that lives inside you to shut the fuck up.
Jack Nicholson was short and balding at 30 and pulled tons of quality tail. And before anyone says, “Well, he was rich and famous”, I will tell you that he worked as an actor for something like 10 years before he got his break and, as I understand it, he did just fine before he became famous.
Alan Greenspan, one of the ugliest fuckers to ever walk this earth, apparently always had some quality talent on his arm WAY before he made his name as an economist.
I agree with the advice on “Stop giving and start taking”, but the rest is questionable in the sense that you’re trying to make your ex jealous. Don’t even try this technique even if not intentional. If you’re not already dressing well and in good shape, you’re not in position to complain about being dumped.
Avoid your ex. Unless you really have to see them, which you don’t, don’t even see, talk, or confide with mutual friends.
Give yourself some time between relationships. At least one month. Then deliberately date new people and don’t mention your ex to a new prospect.
Be less available.
If your orbiting at a distance farther than you’d like, adopt a more elliptical orbit. In the sense that you may get closer after having spent a longer time away.
Gawd, that’s a wonderful solar system analogy.
@Cooper
I don’t know about that as a strategy, but it is indeed a wonderful metaphor!
@Bellita
But, does mine fit under “2.Be Scarce”?
So even the shrinks are reading Roissy now? Maybe this thing can be turned around after all.
@Senior Beta
Pssshhhh, I knew all this at the age of 13. However, he is aware of Game, though not from Roissy:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201108/are-pick-tactics-sexy-or-sexist
I wonder though do quite a lot of these friendzone guys orbit more than one girl at the same time?
I spose this post doesn’t really apply to them though. Also I think Jack Nicholson was really handsome! Maybe that’s just me though.
@Cooper
I too love the creativity of this metaphor, but I don’t think it’s good strategy. You must stop orbiting completely, as you are not subservient to her “sun.” I’d say you should be moving toward more of a “magnets” strategy – if she repels you, move along. If she is responsive, escalate sexually but not emotionally.
The best approach is to cut off ALL contact. I routinely state (verbally or with text) that “I have enough friends and I must do what’s best for me. Good luck!”
About half those women re-surface some months later to “casually” inquire about my availability.
Those inquiries are ignored. Homey don’t play that game.
In my opinion, it is easier to stay out of the friend zone than it is to get out of the friend zone … To modify a quote from Mr. Miyagi:
Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, [makes squish gesture] get squish just like grape. Here, girlfriend, same thing. Either you girlfriend do “yes”, or girlfriend do “no”. You girlfriend do “guess so”, [makes squish gesture] just like grape. Understand?
When I was much younger and ended up in the friend zone, and most of the guys I have known who friend-zoned themselves, it was the result of trying to be something between a friend and a boyfriend; sometimes because I/they lacked the confidence to push for a relationship, and other times because she wasn’t available for a relationship and I/they were aiming to be the next in line. What I learned is that you’re far more likely to be able to enter into a relationship with a woman when you’re a distant friend or aquaintance than if you’re the friend-zoned guy.
How was metaphor any different than #2?
“2. Be scarce.
Give the object of your affection an opportunity to experience (and hopefully mourn) your absence.”
There are both based on the assumption that a duration of distance could result in being closer – or that a absence of affection could create a yearning for it. I wasn’t attempting to make an alternate strategy. I was simply associating the scarcity strategy with the likes of how momentum added, in the direct away from the object being orbited, will cause for the momentum to swing back similarly, in opposite direction – inwards.
“Use makeup only to enhance your natural appearance. Less is more. You’re not fooling anyone with heavy makeup, at least not for long.”
Makeup isn’t about “fooling” people. This lady:
http://sheerglitz.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/smoky-eyes-5_1lk9l_229751.jpg
looks gorgeous even though it’s obvious her face doesn’t naturally look like that.
Having been there a few times:
Fuck that.
Any girl who friendzones you should be eliminated from your life ruthlessly and immediately. Don’t take the chance.
@Cooper
That makes total sense, thanks for clarifying.
As always, i second the veracity of this notion. I’ve made it one of the driving reasons for my blogs existence. The death and destruction of all friendzones globally (i dare to dream large)
i’m not talking about removing men and women from communicating or interacting, even having basic friendship. No we all know the friendzone we’re talking about here. It has a name.
LJBF.
The words that come AFTER romantic inclination has been asserted. That’s pandora’s box and once someone shows affection for someone else, there is no room for ‘friendship’.
At best, the person doing the LJBF is completely ignorant and the mentality of a pet rock. At worst, that person is a cruel, manipulating parasite, taking perverse pleasure in stringing someone along to remain just out of reach, while extracting the emotional/platonic needs without a return cost. These emotional vampires need to be staked through the heart, each and every one.
Should make a global ‘End a Friendzone and save a Soul’ day, where men around the world help those poor zombies see the light and unshackle themselves and let these poor angels get their emotional quotient filled elsewhere.. perhaps the cads they’re fucking?
LJBF women are as bad as Pump&Dump men. Worse even. At least the women get a fleeting moment of happiness and sexual validation. The men in LJBFville are shamed and guilted for ‘ruining’ a good friendship over something as ‘trivial’ as sex. Yeah.. i had that line used on me.
And i staked it through the heart with no remorse.
A lot of good stuff here, could be circulated widely as a PSA that would improve life for men and women both.
But, alas, nothing is perfect; predictably, this is the stinker:
Be awesome by being interesting.
Fill your life with people and pursuits that you enjoy.
Cultivate passions.
Get good at things, and show off by sharing your interests.
As we’ve discussed soooooo many times before, this bare advice is worse than useless since it omits the all-important qualification that the pursuits and passions in question must be among those that are interesting to other people. As it took several years to get Susan to finally admit, having a passion for calculus simply doesn’t cut it (outside of an insignificant number of math groupies, who do exist at the PPM level) no matter how electric you are about it.
So before you take this post to the airwaves you need to polish up this point a bit, to make it clear that only passions that others find interesting are relevant. But, if one choose’s one’s pursuits with an eye toward how attractive they will make one look to others, isn’t that just another kind of supplication? Then again, what’s the alternative? “Pursue your innate passions, and then just hope to God that someone else finds them interesting”? It worked for Hope’s husband (!), but it doesn’t strike me as a very promising strategy in general.
Hmm. Maybe it’s better to leave this point out of the PSA entirely, after all.
@GudEnuf
Re: Makeup
Didn’t the NYT have a really interesting article on makeup and perception? There were like, 4 levels of make-up’ed-ness and an evaluation/perception of each level.
The interesting thing I have found is that men and women mean different things about makeup. The lightest levels– a dusting of powder, light lip gloss– don’t even register on many men’s radar. It doesn’t “read” as makeup. It registers as “natural.”
Most men, in my observation, associate makeup with seeing a TON of product on someone’s face, to an overpowering extent. They are seeing makeup instead of skin, lashes, etc. That is the case of a “fail”– the focus is supposed to be enhancing the person’s features, not the makeup instead.
I have seen amazing things done, even with Kabuki makeup, that were dramatic and still drew your attention to the bone structure and facial features. Instead of, She’s wearing a TON of warpaint! Makeup is pretty fascinating, from a cultural perspective!
Jackie: Yes, people only complain about makeup when it’s poorly applied. I like it when I see nice makeup on a girl because:
1) It’s pretty.
2) It’s a sign that she is smart, conscientious, and socially aware.
Regarding interesting passions, I have to say I really don’t care what type of hobbies the guy has as long as he loves it and is good at it. Where I have a problem is when I sense that a guy needs his partners to enjoys his hobbies as much as he does to connect with someone.
@ThePrivateMan
You said: “The best approach is to cut off ALL contact. I routinely state (verbally or with text) that “I have enough friends and I must do what’s best for me. Good luck!””
Is this necessarily an approach that will work if said by females? Or would it be considered far to aggressive? I ask because I got “friendzoned” (would it be more accurate to just call it a rejection, though) several months ago. I told a friend of mine that I had feelings for him and he very nicely turned me down. Fair enough – his decision. But then he told me that he hoped that we could continue to be friends. And I said yes, we could still continue to be friends. But should I have said that [your quote] to him? It seems to be a little in bad faith, but I’d want your (and anyone else’s) opinion…
>> “Don’t wear cologne or use heavily scented products. We need to sniff you out to know if we are attracted to you, and if you mask your natural scent, you’re taking a prime source of information away from us. This only hurts you – we miss your good natural smell, and your cologne will only mask an incompatible scent temporarily before our gut tells us we’re genetic misfits. ”
One thing I’ve noticed with a lot of platonic male friends is that I’m often distinctly *not* attracted to their smell. It’s not like they actually stink or anything, but if I’m ever close enough to be aware of their “scent” then my first instinct is to pull away (which is the opposite of how I’d respond with a boyfriend or crush or whatever).
@Ramble
If I was only ever again allowed to tell women one thing about attracting men, this would be it.
@Herb I’ve delurked and am glad to see you posting again. It’s odd how you come to enjoy reading certain people and then they disappear for a while and sometimes forever. How’s it going lately?
@HanSolo:
Okay, busy, but okay.
I always feel slightly irritated when guys complain about being friend zoned. I mean it must be horrible for them but what do they want women to do?
Girls are taught to be nice from birth really. It’s what we do. And LJBF is us trying to let you down nicely in a “we’re not attracted to you but we like you as a person way.”
About half the time we don’t like you as a person, we want you to leave us alone but we’re trying to save face, ours and yours. We don’t want to be rude or get a reputation for being horrible but we also want it to be clear that there is nothing going to happen.
The rest of the time we probably do genuinely like you or are in a situation where you will have to interact; you’re part of a friendship group, you work together etc. In that case LJBF is an attempt to avoid awkwardness, it would be easier for everyone if you could be polite and friendly to each other. It’s harsh for the person who got rejected but is is normally an attempt to make things easier.
Having said this, if they’re emotionally dumping, hugging or just generally expecting boyfriend behaviour then you’re being taken advantage of and you should get away from that unhealthy manipulative person. Most women would be either trying to act as normal as possible or just making sure that they don’t have any alone time with you until the air has cleared.
I think the main problem is that women expect men to get cues that they would get. Think about the interaction of girls or cliques in High School, superficially they do nothing wrong in their interactions, they come across as friendly even…
But everyone who needs to know, knows they hate each other. It works perfectly (while making many girls miserable) until you try to use it with guys who just don’t pick up on the signals.
And LJBF happens.
@Suzy
Yes, I would apply that advice to women, too. Your friend was being polite but by remaining his friend, you also run the serious risk of him exploiting you in some way by stringing you along with your hopes maintained but never fulfilled.
@LouiseC
Not enough girls are taught to be nice. While the FriendZone might seem to be a nice approach to let a fellow down easy, far too many girls (and women) end up exploiting that male friend in some way, usually emotionally but often with other favors involved. It may be intentional (ruthless bitches do this) or unintentional, the FriendZone is hardly nice. It’s actually quite ugly and borderline vicious.
Suzy 23
It goes for either sex. The LJBF is a denial of one partners needs, and turns the relationship into a one way street.
Nobody is saying guys/girls can’t be actual friends (well i think it’s impossible, but day to day interactions are necessary.)
What is being said is that EITHER sex who is looking for something else from the other and not getting it should not stay in that position.
If a woman says LJBF to a guy she knows has romantic feelings for him, would be akin to a guy telling a woman who has developed feelings for him and wanting a relationship with him “nahhh, i don’t really feel like you’re the one.. but i do like fucking you.. so lets just stay fuckbuddies until i find someone better than you cool?”
Would you advise that woman to stay in that situation?
So why would you even consider allowing for a situation where a guy gives a woman all the benefits of emotional support, resources and friendship without getting back in return his intimate, sexual needs?
It truly astounds me when women can’t put this together. An LJBF, a friendzone, a oneway street, an emotional vampire, an emotionally unavailable cad, etc… wherever there is a disparity and one sidedness to the expectations and take take take from one side with no giving back to the need requirements of the other gender.. is when the plug should be pulled without hesitation or remorse.
If you’re a girl and you know a guy has feelings for you, NO MATTER HOW MUCH A GOOD GUY HE IS AND WANT TO KEEP HIM AROUND.. do the right thing and cut him loose. If he’s knee deep in unrequited love, he won’t have the strength to do it on his own.
I don’t know if women end up feeling that way too but if it is, then it equally applies in reverse.
LouiseC,
I appreciate your forthrightness at 29, but I think you’re making a number of linguistic errors. Consider:
Girls are taught to be nice from birth really. It’s what we do.
Actually, what you’re describing here — and, accurately, IMO — is not the imperative to be nice, in the sense of actually helping other people, so much as the imperative to appear to be nice. An important distinction! that you have also respected at the end of the comment.
And LJBF is us trying to let you down nicely in a “we’re not attracted to you but we like you as a person way.”
As Private Man has already noted, with the same sentiment found in many places, the phrase “trying to let you down nicely” is faulty. The act of declaring LJBF is not in any way actually “nice”, in that the result is hurtful, when better alternatives are available (see below). The correct statement here is “trying to let you down in a way that, in a woman’s judgement, appears nice”. But it’s really just self-serving, vis:
we’re trying to save face, ours and yours.
Again, faulty; the woman is trying to save her own face, period. Rejection deprives the man of standing, and hence is necessarily a loss of face. But it’s an error to think that leavening the rejection with some kind of LJBF declaration lessens the loss. Really, it only makes the loss of face worse because it’s condescending; the implications of “you’re good enough to hang out with but not to sleep with” or “you’ll be a great guy for someone else” are claims to the judgmental high ground by the woman, putting the man in an inferior position, without purchase for the woman to be criticized.
I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point: it’s faulty, and in a very self-serving way, to attribute to any kind of “niceness” or kindness or altruism a behavior which is, in fact, purely for self-protection. This point is reinforced here:
We don’t want to be rude or get a reputation for being horrible
As above, the primary motivation is for the woman to protect her reputation by appearing to be nice; whether a man is actually hurt in the process is completely unimportant.
Now
what do they want women to do?
So, what would be a better, less selfish course of action? The obvious: change your priorities. Don’t pretend to be an innocent angel; take part of the blame and shoulder part of the responsibility, since the “fault” for a lack of attraction could be just as much your bad taste as it is his bad smell. Forget about preserving appearances for your own selfish sake, and concentrate instead on how to afford the other person some dignity. Get your priorities straight and the rest will follow naturally.
Meanwhile, this was an extremely revealing passage, and once again let me compliment you on your forthrightness:
I think the main problem is that women expect men to get cues that they would get. … [high school girls] superficially they do nothing wrong in their interactions, they come across as friendly even…
But everyone who needs to know, knows they hate each other.
So, are you going to recommend a better educational program for boys at an early age? Should someone take them by the hand in 8th grade and say, “See those girls over there, how they all act superficially nice to one another? That facade hides the fact that they’re really in bitter competition and several of them really hate the others. You can’t go by what they say, you have to learn to pick up on subtle signals to really understand their intent.” If that’s your understanding, then congratulations! you’re practically an MRA/PUA already.
@LouiseC and The Private Man
I have to agree with Louise, girls are way, way too nice. I would absolutely love it if the next time I asked a girl for her number, and she intended never to answer when I called, if instead of giving it to me she just said NO. For God’s sake, my ego can handle being rejected by a girl I met 10 minutes ago at a bar. It’s just a waste of my time and hers for me to bother calling her a couple days later when she has no intention of returning that call. No isn’t mean. It’s just no.
Also, the so-called “nuclear” rejections aren’t really a big deal. It’s just a rejection, plain and simple, and some of them are quite funny. I once told a girl (as an intro) I thought that a crowded bar at 2 AM was not the best place to be going over guy problems with her friend (the one I was trying to pick up). She turned to me, said “thanks so much for your opinion”, and turned away. I broke down laughing, because it was a very clever, on-point response. I actually congratulated her on it a few minutes later, and she smiled and I walked away. No harm done, and somehow I didn’t cry myself to sleep.
I don’t really think of being “let down easy” as Louise described as “nice” as really helping. Rejection is bad on it’s own, but having the woman attempt to soften the blow just makes it seem like she believes I would be able to handle the rejection. IMO, that’s just an additional insult.
Also, IMO, it isn’t so much about the girl wanting to be “nice” to the guy, but in fact not wanting, themselves, to be “mean.” It’s funny how easily that can be flipped into viewed as a self-serving action.
wouldn’t**** agh!
This is similar to the discussion we had about using the “I have a boyfriend” lie.
If you’re a girl and you know a guy has feelings for you, NO MATTER HOW MUCH A GOOD GUY HE IS AND WANT TO KEEP HIM AROUND.. do the right thing and cut him loose. If he’s knee deep in unrequited love, he won’t have the strength to do it on his own. – M3
Preaching truth here
I respect men who refuse to stay in the friendzone. I think that men should definitely get out of such situations. There is a caveat to this though.
If a person has maintained a friendship with another person for several years without revealing any feelings they have for the other person, breaking up the friendship at that point is a bit more tricky.
In my opinion, a person should let their romantic interest be known to the other person within a month of knowing them. That is enough time to form a general idea of what a person is like, but it’s also a short enough time period to completely separate if one’s romantic feelings aren’t reciprocated. If you like someone, move in hot and move in fast. Don’t allow too much time to pass you by. The longer your intentions are not known to the other person, the greater the chance that they will put you in the friendzone.
Herb, it’s good to see a post from you. I was concerned you were having more heart problems when you disappeared. If you don’t mind me asking, are you doing okay? Are you allowed to exercise much? You sounded like you were doing some pretty heavy duty training prior to this.
Susan, how is your ankle doing?
@also intj
I’m hobbling around in my cast packing for a holiday at the beach and it’s hot as hell outside. I broke it a week ago today, and the pain is dulling, so that’s good. Four days down, 38 to go!
Thanks for asking.
“I broke it a week ago today, and the pain is dulling, so that’s good. Four days down, 38 to go!”
Yikes. Hope your recovery goes well.
I would say that, on some level, you should communicate your sexual interest in her from the word go.
Or, better put, she should perceive you as a sexual male. And, if she is single, and you are single, all it takes is the look in your eyes for her to understand that you will not be relating to her in a platonic way.
@also intj
Training had tapered because I couldn’t do it (one way I knew there was issues). Now it’s back to walking for a while.
I tried to get in early on the Sex Selection thread but the system kept having errors.
Live has also just been busy.
@Susan
Geeze, be careful out there people. No more HUS injuries.
Thank goodness trying to train led to you finding the problem before it became even worse, Herb. It must be frustrating to be back with walking, but it sure beats not finding the problem till later.
Susan, stay away from the sand! That could be tricky. I saw on another thread that you mentioned you were leaving. I hope you’re able to relax, and the pain lessens.
Thanks also intj. I have been told I can go to the beach with a Hefty bag tied over my leg. Doesn’t that sound comfortable? Add in the fact that we’re vacationing at Nauset Beach, where the Great White was seen last weekend, and it should be interesting. Honestly, I’m looking forward to some time with the family, and general downtime. I’ll be around on the blog a bit, but hopefully not too much.
@ Privateman
The best approach is to cut off ALL contact. I routinely state (verbally or with text) that “I have enough friends and I must do what’s best for me. Good luck!”
100% agreement. Your LJBF response isn’t bitter or mean, but gets the point across with no BS.
Once LJBF’d you should always seek greener pastures elsewhere. I would not consider a relationship again with a girl that LJBF’d me in the past unless there was a very good non-compatibility related reason for the LJBF. For instance she likes you, but is moving overseas soon, or maybe she’s starting to get involved with another guy and the timing is off.
There are greater risks with getting emotionally involved with a girl that isn’t sure if she likes you. She will be more prone to hypergamy. She is also more likely to date you for a short period and LJBF you again once she’s more sure she isn’t into you (leaving emotional wreckage in her wake).
For comparison, classic game theory states that a guy should permanently cease all contact and immediately seek out (multiple) other women after being LJBF’d.
Sexual hookup culture: A review.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/gpr/16/2/161/
“Abstract:
“Hookups,” or uncommitted sexual encounters, are becoming progressively more engrained in popular culture, reflecting both evolved sexual predilections and changing social and sexual scripts. Hook-up activities may include a wide range of sexual behaviors, such as kissing, oral sex, and penetrative intercourse. However, these encounters often transpire without any promise of, or desire for, a more traditional romantic relationship. A review of the literature suggests that these encounters are becoming increasingly normative among adolescents and young adults in North America, representing a marked shift in openness and acceptance of uncommitted sex. We reviewed the current literature on sexual hookups and considered the multiple forces influencing hookup culture, using examples from popular culture to place hooking up in context. We argue that contemporary hookup culture is best understood as the convergence of evolutionary and social forces during the developmental period of emerging adulthood. We suggest that researchers must consider both evolutionary mechanisms and social processes, and be considerate of the contemporary popular cultural climate in which hookups occur, in order to provide a comprehensive and synergistic biopsychosocial view of “casual sex” among emerging adults today. “
This brings up something interesting…so today, I went grocery-shopping with the BF and I wore a tank and short-shorts. It was the least amount of clothing I’ve ever worn, and to be honest I felt a little exposed, but it was hot out so I was just like ‘whatever’. BF commented that he thought it was very attractive, and when I asked him why, he said “I dunno..you’re dressed for the weather. It looks sporty.” It kind of went against the whole “less-is-more” idea I had thought worked most effectively on guys.
Thinking about it more now, perhaps it was just because I was dressing more for the sunny weather? I was showing off perhaps just a bit more skin than I would have wearing a sundress. Idk, it puzzled me a little…
Sooo….a denim skirt?
#hicksville
Hmm…I haven’t been wearing makeup lately to the office or otherwise because it was very hot and I don’t like sweating while wearing foundation, but perhaps I should start wearing it again. So much for letting my “true beauty shine!”
@ SayWhaat
Your BF may also just be a guy who finds the sporty look really attractive. My cousin went for that type of woman exclusively (and married one *g*).
Use makeup only to enhance your natural appearance. Less is more. You’re not fooling anyone with heavy makeup, at least not for long.
I’m actually going to contradict this, as ‘more makeup = heavy makeup’ is an extremely common misconception. The problem isn’t that women are wearing too much makeup so much as many don’t know HOW to wear it properly. It’s similar to fashion in that you need to learn to ‘dress’ for your skin type and facial bone structure.
I learned to do that very early compared to most – I evidenced an early interest in makeup, and my mother is a ‘mascara and a bit of lipgloss and out the door’ type, so she looked around and enrolled me in a class at a local modelling school when I was 14. Obviously, this is a fairly expensive route; at the time, I had sustained an injury that meant I couldn’t continue with my dance lessons that year while it healed, so this formed the alternate extracurricular activity for me. It’s also something I am eternally grateful that she did, because I learned so much and I’m still using it. I love makeup! *g*
A more reasonable route, with less time/cost investment, would be to go for a makeup lesson with a proper makeup artist. Most MAC stores offer this service, for example – last I looked, it was something like $60 CDN for an hour’s lesson, with a specific focus if you wanted one (e.g., ‘Help I can’t do eyeliner!’), and you got a discount on any products purchased afterwards. I would highly recommend investing in something like this, and then hitting YouTube. There are reams and reams of fantastic tutorials on how to achieve various looks and how to use various types of products, but they are difficult to personalise adequately if you don’t already have a good grounding on what works for YOUR face.
One artist who does great videos with some really natural looks is Lisa Eldridge – she’s got a fantastic ‘First Date’ look video, in which she talks about what men really mean when they say they don’t like ‘heavy makeup’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGeYrshxwI&feature=g-user-a&list=PL5610A50D926096FE
That’s part of her playlist on ‘Bridal Looks’, which do tend to be soft, pretty, natural makeup looks, so they’re a good choice to search for tutorials on YouTube by other artists as well.
I’ll also distinguish between ‘base makeup’, such as foundation and concealer, and ‘colour makeup’, such as eyeliner and lipstick. It’s the women who have trouble applying base makeup that end up looking like they trowelled it on, usually – good products, properly applied, should disappear into the skin and look totally natural.
/essay, lol. Music, language, books and makeup – my passions!
A little off topic, but check out this foolish comment.
He claims misandry doesn’t exist, and if you say it does, shut up.
While Susan’s post isn’t about misandry, stuff like what’s on that site (normally an anime review site) does explain the mindset that says that a man must tolerate being friendzoned, but a woman who doesn’t get commitment from the alpha that banged her has been wronged.
I agree. I think guys who say “I don’t like too much makeup” are thinking about makeup in the same way that girls think of ‘roided watermelon pecs when they say “I don’t like muscles”. Makeup (and muscles) when done properly, enhance.
Haha, it’s possible! I rarely ever dress “sporty”, so doing so might have been pleasing and different for him.
Guys end up in the “friend-zone” because they think it’s a way into the bed-room, not realizing that it isn’t. I learned long ago to make it clear what a woman has to offer to me, and it isn’t friendship. As I have told more than one – I have plenty of friends and don’t have time for more, but I always have time for a new lover.
Then take off and let her decide what she’s looking for – almost always, they will be back on your terms as long as you make it clear at the outset. Every woman I meet, I give the “once-over” where you let your eyes wander up and down evaluating them – then I’ll usually start chatting up another girl who is hotter. Nothing like competition to get the female hormones raging… Most guys do not understand that the man is the prize – women compete with others to get him. If there is no competition, you aren’t desirable – it is as simple as that. No one want the car everyone can have or the one that is given to them – they want the one that they have to work for, then they will treasure it… Simple human nature…
SW: “I agree. I think guys who say “I don’t like too much makeup” are thinking about makeup in the same way that girls think of ‘roided watermelon pecs when they say “I don’t like muscles”. Makeup (and muscles) when done properly, enhance.”
Yes, 100%. It takes a lot of effort to get to the point to get that low body fat “not muscled” look, when in fact they have worked out very hard (diet and lifting heavy) to get to that point, just not roiding out.
The friendzone is for weaklings. I don’t wish to sound “mean” myself, but it just is – men who cannot make a sexual move, and instead settle for a “friendship,”in the hopes of somehow winning her over, are just being weaklings.
Women despise weak men, or at the very least have no sexual attraction to them whatsoever.
I do admit that I squirm when a very unattractive woman is very kind, attentive, and flattering towards me. I loathe shooting people down (it’s not something that happens more than occasionally, as im neither particularly tall, wealthy, nor beautiful) but I still feel,for some reason, enormous discomfort when a woman I’d never be with throws herself at me.
So Im polite to them, but not at all encouraging, because it’s extremely cruel to lead someone on, give them false hopes, and then dash them.
Worst of all is to accept a relationship with someone you’re only partly or not at all attracted to as a lover. That ensures misery for both.
Really, a woman who turns you down flat does you a huge huge (if hurtful) favor. She saves you valuable time, which h you should then spend building your strength, confidence, and SMV for finding someone who’s far far better.
For women, I would say in general to just be fit and symmetrical. Mainly fit. A huge nose, crossed eyes, or bad teeth are turn offs, but nowhere near as bad as big guts, chins, or buttocks. Hit the gym. We men are horribly superficial creatures, and will tolerate all sorts of awful behavior if a woman has a trim figure and an attractive appearabce.
And if you think a woman has any interest in you whatsoever, and it’s mutual, for heaven’s sakes just go for it. At worst you’ll get a polite “no thank you.”
But she’ll get enormously frustrated and attraction will fade if you’re not man enough to approach her as a man would approach a woman.
She likely has lots of nice friends with whom she goes shopping. Be a man, not a eunuch, and if she is either a bad friend or a bad lover,be man enough to walk away.
Great article. It could also be titled “how to have dignity.”
Friend-zoning is exploitation. I have romantic interests and real friends, but no friend zone. I practice mercy killing in that regard. When I know I’m not attracted to him by the second date, and he offers to be my friend, I say no.
When I know I’m not attracted to him by the second date, and he offers to be my friend, I say no.
Royale, IME, that is usually not the path to the friend zone.
The most common context for the the “friend zone” is in college where some guy can perpetually hover in some girls circle as her “friend”. She thinks he’s sweet and he wants something sexual. He never escalates because he is scared, stupid, ignorant, …whatever.
That is not the only place where a guy can get FZ’d, but it is the one where we likely see it the most.
Time to link to this again, which I think is pretty archetypal
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/5664104/adam-and-eve-in-the-friend-zone
I actually quite enjoy a version of the friend zone, where two people are mutually attracted to some degree, but it doesn’t meet the threshold for spilling over into sex. Attraction chemistry makes anything more fun, these types of fromanaces can be very deep and idealized, lacking the thorns that come with a sexual relationship.
So long as you’re both banging somebody else. Otherwise, creepy like the song. Friend zone’s a side dish, not a main course.
The smell thing I find interesting, and it’s probably true. I’m a bit musky, rarely using soap, deodorant, cologne. No woman has ever complained to me about it, and I usually strongly attract women of different ethnic backgrounds who aren’t taking birth control pills.
I’m mentally adding “compatible smell” to “social proof” and “nervous incitement” as the three main attraction generators.
In order to Quit Pining
It is recommended that duds GOOGLE & watch EVERY old youtube clip of MADTV’s
“Lowered Expectations”
http://youtu.be/VRcj9WbHLjk
@Amble
“The most common context for the the “friend zone” is in college where some guy can perpetually hover in some girls circle as her “friend”. She thinks he’s sweet and he wants something sexual. He never escalates because he is scared, stupid, ignorant, …whatever.”
I thought that being placed in the friend zone required the LJBF declaration from the desired party. The scenario you described sounds more like orbiting.
To add to #58
What I mean by exploitation is the situation where the desired party is fully aware that the interested party wants to escalate sexually/ emotionally, but instead of reciprocating, the desired party perpetually uses the interested party for favors (dinner, gifts, cooked meals, transportation, etc.).
The idea that a guy who is orbiting a woman he’s longing for = friend zone is new to me.
I thought that being placed in the friend zone required the LJBF declaration from the desired party. The scenario you described sounds more like orbiting.
I guess it is all how this is defined.
For me, a friend-zoned guy was one that got categorized, by the girl, as a “friend”.
Tracy: “Oh, Tim, he is such a sweet guy. What a good friend.”
Whereas Tim can’t stop looking at that one photo of Tracy in a bikini.
The LJBF’d guy, I guess, would also fall in that category, but, it would seem to me that he simply got rejected. Though, I am probably splitting hairs.
Actually, I just read your #65 comment…Yes.
LJBFing some guy that tried to escalate is kind of cruel. And a guy that is orbiting is kinda stupid.
No man needs to stay or to be inserted in the Friend zone. The Friend zone is the area reserved for men who aren’t attractive, or are the men women want to sleep with but can’t even get a one-night stand with(the disparity in SMV is too potent).
If you want to save up time, and you find a specific woman to be attractive, run some game. If she doesn’t correspond to your sexual desire, just move on. Don’t end up like this 50-something guy I was observing as I took my father out for lunch. He ordered a dish which baseline cost was 200 bucks, and he ordered champagne and other stuff.
I had my back to the man and the woman was covered by this fella. I had it pictured in my mind that the woman must be young and hot, but as I got up to head to the bathroom I took a long glance at the woman and.. She was average looking and in her 50.
So you guys see, it doesn’t really matter that you are boyfriend material, if she isn’t attracted t you, you can shower her with gifts and emotional support and attention and you still won’t sleep with her.
Now, if you are in the friendzone because you willed yourself to be there ie, you had no attraction for her, but something changed and you’re now looking at the young woman in a different light; run some game.
No man needs to stay or to be inserted in the Friend zone. The Friend zone is the area reserved for men who aren’t attractive, or are the men women want to sleep with but can’t even get a one-night stand with(the disparity in SMV is too potent).
If you want to save up time, and you find a specific woman to be attractive, run some game. If she doesn’t correspond to your sexual desire, just move on. Don’t end up like this 50-something guy I was observing as I took my father out for lunch. He ordered a dish which baseline cost was 200 bucks, and he ordered champagne and other stuff.
I had my back to the man and the woman was covered by this fella. I had it pictured in my mind that the woman must be young and hot, but as I got up to head to the bathroom I took a long glance at the woman and.. She was average looking and in her 50.
So you guys see, it doesn’t really matter that you are boyfriend material, if she isn’t attracted t you, you can shower her with gifts and emotional support and attention and you still won’t sleep with her.
Now, if you are in the friendzone because you willed yourself to be there ie, you had no attraction for her, but something changed and you’re now looking at the young woman in a different light; run some game.
I agree! In fact, I have this exactly, and he is one of my dearest, best-est friends. We both find each other objectively attractive, but neither one of us would ever consider the other as a serious romantic prospect (our worldviews are too…divergent?), but we’re still very close friends. So, a platonic male best friend *is possible*, but only as long as everyone is on the same page.
”I actually quite enjoy a version of the friend zone, where two people are mutually attracted to some degree, but it doesn’t meet the threshold for spilling over into sex. Attraction chemistry makes anything more fun, these types of fromanaces can be very deep and idealized, lacking the thorns that come with a sexual relationship.”
I have such a thing going on in my life. Grew up with her. She would grab me and push me into a dark room and grope my penis. She’d invite me to have dinner with her while her parents were at work and she’d flash me to let me know that she had no panties and she would ask her mother to put porn videos while I was there.
She was fat, but had a very cute face. She got a bad boy as a boyfriend and he demanded of her to lose weight. She did, but she didn’t put out(or did anything beyond making out) for the guy and one day he wanted to beat me up because he had made her dump all of her guy friends and beta orbiters but she didn’t do it to me.
One day I was fixing her computer(remember, I wasn’t attracted to her so being nice to her wouldn’t lower any chances of getting laid) and the guy(he was a stalker, yeah) saw me in her room and tried to climb her window to enter her room and to beat me up. I exited from the back door and she soon dumped him because he wanted her to get rid off me and to never talk to me again.
It went along like this, ” You want me to cut my best friend from my life? That will never happen, not because of you and not because of some other future guy.”
Am I in the Friendzone? If this is the friendzone, then you guys ought to enter something similar to this. We live one street away from one another. We don’t call each other on the phone. We don’t text, though we have the other’s phone number. We don’t send emails to one another. And last time I saw her, it was one year ago.
Sometimes, we come across one another in the grocery and she’ll sexually provoke me. Although she’s now smoking hot I am not really attracted to her so my indifference to her turns her on even more.
When her mother meets up with my mother(again, we don’t really stay in touch) by accident, the young woman’s mother will invite her(and I if I’m with my mother) to come to her house and if the girl is there, she’ll come up with nonsensical stuff just to try to get me turned on.
Like, we’re talking about carrot soap, asking me if I want to eat with them, I say I don’t like soap and the girl comes out with a huge grin, looks me in the eye, and says ”but I bet Lowland loves ”grelo” soap.”
”Grelo” is slang for vagina. I don’t react to it and it pushes her sexually escalate even more. Like, my mother, her mother, the girl and me are hanging out in the girl’s room and for no reason she mentions sex, shows me her huge dildo, goes up to ask me if my penis is as big as it, I ignore it.
One time she decided it would be cool to show my mother her new pants. We we’re all in her room and jumps onto her bed and says ” Lowland, I’m going to get the pants I have on off, but you can stay here” with a huge smile.
I left her room and waited in the kitchen. I hear her giggles and next thing you know she’s telling me across her room that she’s ready and done with the pants-putting business. I enter the room and I have her perfectly shaped butt on a thong, with her leaning over to give even more prominence to her butt, with a huge grin on her face.
She crossed her room to stand next to me, pulled my sweater to see if I had a boner. I didn’t and she got frustrated and gave up for a bit. Remember that I never kiss this girl? Her skin is as smooth and as white as Chinese Porcelain. She has lips like Angelina Jolie and are redder than a strawberry.
My mother told me it was time to leave and my mother went to kiss the girl. I kissed her mother, and I was heading for the door, but the girl – who was almost asleep- rolls over to put her belly up in the air, opens and then closes her eyes, smiles and says ”you can do what you want” and waits there with lips parted and a cunning smile.
She was waiting for me to lean over and kiss her on the lips. In her confusion to the lack of attention I was giving to her(If I see her in the street, I’ll pretend to not see her or I’ll cross the street to not walk by her. If my mother points her to me in the crowd or whatever and the girl notices it, I’ll look but I won’t pay attention to her and that gets her to get prissy and eager to engage me. I did once pull some Cocky-funny move on her at a distance because I was gaming the Brazilian Bartender with the huge juggs and a bee waistline so it rug off on the dark haired, porcelain skin girl and that made her want to go the distance but her bus was pulling over) so she went off into dreamland.
My mother once told me that this girl has the habit of pulling her to the side when they stumble onto each other and she asks my mother how many girls I banged that week, my mother smiles and the girl takes that as a confirmation and replies with a satisfied ” The quiet ones are the worst type.”
I could easily bang her but I will never do it. She doesn’t put out for free. Many have tried, guys who were vastly more attractive than me and more masculine looking and with money, but she resisted their advances.
She demands a relationship. And the guy has to show that he’s committed, like agreeing to move in with her. She lived with a fella for 7 years. It turns out he never payed for a thing, she did it all, but his decision to move out from his parents house to live with her made her nesting instincts click, I dunno.
It’s rather odd that an extremely hot young woman would not chase Alpha males but instead would play house with a pretty average looking/skinny dude with a crappy job and no financial investment on her, and I reckon that my aloofness and my lack of emotional investment in women(ie, she asked me why I don’t have a girlfriend and I told her I could never find a woman like my mother, so why bother with relationships) and she seemed to have liked that because she told me the most important person in her life was her mother – but not after trying to put some shit-game on me to make me lower my Alphaness.
I don’t really care about her so I passed all of the shit-tests with flying colours.
How did I manage this?
Learn and develop this mindset; let go of your porn and masturbation for months and observe young women of all races and Countries. The dick test consists in, the strongest boner you have in relation to each race is your ”my type of girl” and that allows you to become immune to the beauty and sexual escalation of any girl outside of your preferences and that is the sort of Game you want to learn. Leave that October method and PUA workshops for the omega males.
I’m immune to Asian women, Dark skinned/haired women. My only weakness are naturally tall, slim, and naturally blonde young women from Germany. The other day I was hanging out with my father at a popular spot for tourists and a bus filled with 16-25 year old women from Germany resulted in packing ice against my balls ’cause them be slammin’!
”I’m a bit musky, rarely using soap, deodorant, cologne. No woman has ever complained to me about it, and I usually strongly attract women of different ethnic backgrounds who aren’t taking birth control pills.
I’m mentally adding “compatible smell” to “social proof” and “nervous incitement” as the three main attraction generators.”
Yes, that’s a great plot device to further your goals in attracting varied women in terms of beauty and racial difference. I take a shower once a week and I live in a normally hot Country famous for our sun-spilling weather.
I hate fake smells. Hate it on women and I hate it on me. I stopped shaving my face with a razor because the cream was always laced with scent. I moved on to use an electric machine and I don’t use aftershave, nor do I use deodorant nor perfume. I tend to sweat a lot and these temperatures help out a lot, too.
Some stuff I did to try the smell theory. Hanged out in train, some average and cute girls were turned off by my smell. A very attractive young woman(tall, busty etc etc) entered the train, looked around, had tons of vacant seats but came to stand next to me. She was checking me out and she was trying to get my attention.
This morning I was waiting in line to talk to the clerk at my college. I was standing up while every guy was sitting and this very cute, very well-dressed 18 year old(max) Asian girl was checking me out, I stared her down, made her look away first thus cementing my Alpha status and as she got up to be attended, she brushed her arm right against mine(the hall was huge, she didn’t have to do it) and when she had her business finished, she walked right in front of me, pretty close to me, as if she wanted me to smell her.
15 minutes before I was talking to one of my teachers and this smoking hot chick wanted to talk to my teacher but was so turned off by my smell, she went away. So yeah, smell works as game too.
Lowland?
Not Lokland? Hmmm.
Oh, gross man. Take a shower, please. Deodorant and soap are good things; smelly people, male or female, are just repellant. I’ve definitely blown off women who reek; guys are worse. Bad BO can clear a room.
+1
—————-
Back to the original topic.
I think “3. Pursue other people” is the entire solution, but not as a strategy to develop a romantic relationship with the person who put you in the friend zone. That might be a side effect, but once you’re in the friend zone, it’s best to assume that’s where you’ll stay and just move on.
”Lowland?
Not Lokland? Hmmm.”
No. Lowland.
”Oh, gross man. Take a shower, please. Deodorant and soap are good things; smelly people, male or female, are just repellant. I’ve definitely blown off women who reek; guys are worse. Bad BO can clear a room”
Sometimes it can. I worked construction during my teens and my boss made me use deodorant because we used to work under the sun at some 40 degrees celsius. Never had a complain from women, though, besides the women who weren’t into my immune system.
women choose men. 80% women are sleeping with 20% men. most women will say they are dating men so it is equal. it is not equal because they are dating the same guy. wilt chamberlin slept with 15000 white women. yes that is fifteen thousand white women. now if all those white women said they were having sex with men and it should be even, will that make sense? no, cause all those women were sleeping with one guy=wilt chamberlin
Do, or do not.
There is no ‘friends’.
@Bully
“Do, or do not.
There is no ‘friends’.”
+1,000,000
Before anything else, I will just say the line from the meme… “A moment of silence for our brothers in the friendzone”.
Honestly, the tips you have shared will really mean a lot for people who are stuck in that relationship status.
@bully
Nice!
@Royale
Haha, well said. TBH, I’ve never understood the desire to keep a guy orbiting. For me, the constant awareness of his hopefulness and eagerness to please would make me extremely uncomfortable. I do think that sometimes women just don’t realize a guy has feelings – if he doesn’t initiate or send some clear IOIs it’s hard to tell. We can tell women just to assume a guy never wants to be friends, but that’s not true either. There are guys here who have said they enjoy being friends with women they are not attracted to.
@Ian
The smell thing gets short shrift in our culture, precisely because businesses want us to buy products that make us smell different. I wonder if perfume interferes with men’s ability to detect pheromones? I assume perfume first was used to mask the terrible smells of the unclean body and unsanitary conditions of the environment. Now that we’re obsessive about cleanliness, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot with scents.
I like my husband’s smell after he’s been active. Maybe the French have the right idea – they are both stinky and very sexy.
“It was the later Tudors who decided bathing was all but suicidal, it was so dangerous to health, although Queen Elizabeth I did have a bath once a month ‘whether she needed it or not’.”
(http://www.richardiii.net/medieval_life.htm)
HTH
Am I the only one who really likes the smell of cologne?
Obviously it’s important not to overdo it (and I think most guys figure this out by the end of high school), but it’s something that I notice. I’m like one of those chicks in the Axe commercials.
The Steve Jobs biography describes how he believed he could not produce odor because of his fruitatarian diet. After a critical mass was reached of people gagging in staff meetings, a VP was hired for the express purpose of getting Jobs’ hygiene (and then personality) under control.
Lowland story is too much.
If I get this, the LJBF is after an approach, right? Thus, this kind of relationship depends on there having been an approach.
How about what could be called “congenial colleagues” as in lab partners, employed together, etc?? If there is no approach, there’s no LJBF. IME, this can be enjoyable. In addition, I would be interested in whether a period of congenial collegiality dooms an approach. It’s been said that if a man does not at least indicate a sexual interest, and the implication that he will soon be approaching for sex, in the first–thirty seconds, thirty minutes, first date, whatever–then the woman will never feel the tingle, no matter what. I have heard it applies even to the subcultures where a young couple don’t even hold hands for two years. If he isn’t caught staring at her butt–no matter the stuttering apologies–from time to time, it’s over. Seems reasonable, but the question is whether the implication has to be immediate upon meeting.
The responses to LJBF are good, especially the “nuke them” response: you like a girl, you get LJBFed, and let’s be honest – this happens a lot more with men than women, because women rarely approach men who aren’t likely to be interested in them even for sex – and then you wither and die while orbiting.
Susan has it exactly. But she skirts around the major attitude shift. The whole point is that you have to not care a whit.
Game is so overpowering, compared to the purdy pikchures men are spoon-fed from birth, it behooves every man alive to learn good game.
Tease, don’t respond to texts and when you do, do it sparsely, deflect, be mysterious, be reliable but not too available, keep distance but occasionally let her in, …
It’s possible to game up a good 2 points from whatever natural SMV you have. If you’re a 50 year old guy, it’s dead stupidly simple to date a reasonably attractive 35 year-old. A 40 year-old can easily date a woman in her mid to late 20′s if he’s in not-disgusting physical shape and has solid game. I’m in my late 30′s and I’m dating an attractive woman 11 years younger than me. We’re likely to get married.
The trick is:
If you’ve been LJBFed, bail immediately. But remember: All contacts are potentially useful. The main point is at the end of this note.
However:
I’ve converted LJBFs into partners of one sort on a few occasions. What usually happens is that you transform your friendship into a nocommittal relationship which you then choose to end at some point, much to the other person’s chagrin.
In each case, this was the trajectory:
- I bail and make myself unavailable
- I am obviously with other people, perhaps as or more attractive; this has to be known but not advertised (facebook is awesome for this, perhaps its only good purpose)
- Stay in touch.
- Never, ever, under any circumstances, ever be bitter.
- When you get together, very gently raise the temperature using standard techniques: touching, teasing, closeness, … alternate with a more heavy withdrawal – and make it seem entirely natural. If in groups, make her the very gentle teasing partner and use subtle comments to elevate her friends or associates. Be gentle but consistent.
- Pretend you’re playing on your natural connection emerging from friendship.
- Do not push for sex. Be close, but – to her eyes – strangely unconcerned. The unconcerned bit drives women man.
I’ve overheard conversations women have about their beta orbiters who suddenly lose interest and they’re not just “what a loser he was just after sex” or “I’m so glad we never hooked up” but as often include “Why isn’t he around me as much? What is it? Is there something wrong with me? Is there some other woman or something? Who is she?, … Is she pretty?”
You need to play on this nagging insecurity to un-LJBF yourself. It’s the most consistently effective way to get out of this situation. But you need to be at least remotely what she might be looking for or attracted to. If she’s just not at all attracted to you, you’re cooked.
HOWEVER
You must always display
- your interesting life
- Some command of those around you. This does not need to be pushy. It shouldn’t be furtive or desperate or angry. Calm determination is always better.
- Calm, solid, rock-like assurance that doesn’t come off as arrogance. This is what women love.
- a slightly dismissive attitude towards anything she says or does that could be construed as even remotely flakey. You don’t need to be harsh, but keep a few items around with which to level smart, solid criticisms. You need to be able to drop a subtle negative comment from time to time. Push-pull. Despite what women say they want, they always, always fall for this, and are attracted far more to men who can *properly* deliver a neg. The best negs should plays on her insecurities – while NOT implicating you. That takes some social finesse.
A messed-up delivery can backfire in nuclear fashion, so if you don’t have the attitude frame, don’t try.
By doing this, I turned (only) three otherwise unfortunate LJBFs (out of many more) into high-tension sexual relationships.
In all three cases, I later left.
One woman later told me that she had *no* idea what came over her – it was just that, after X amount of time, she realized that she had a nascent, deep attraction for me. That she had never noticed me that way before, but it all changed, piece by piece, until it just seemed natural. She was unconscious of the entire process. It wasn’t a given the whole way – I was willing to take it or leave it. Ironically, that was key.
My advice to men:
Have a few kettles on the stove, so you don’t get bogged down. Don’t own up to them, either: The other party doesn’t need to know. Just don’t get caught. If you have other interests, make sure you segregate them well.
BTW, these connections tend to be scorching hot if you can get it there. She needs to overcome her rationalization mode, so when she does it, she usually goes whole hog. What happens to the relationship from then on is largely your call.
And there’s one more reason.
A hot friend may have other hot friends.
It’s possible to stay in one’s LJBF zone and gravitate to one of her equally or even more attractive friends.
At the first opportunity, acquire interest from one of the others. You’ll see everything with the first women change fast. If you aren’t yet acting on that interest, you could still convert the LJBF.
Showing higher value, teasing, being mysterious, using jealousy –
whatever works. Many of these things can break men out of the LJBF zone.
Gord makes some excellent points for breaking out of the friendzone if you’re already stuck in one.
If you’re already falling off the cliff, you might as well flap your arms and hope you can fly. It might just work. Did for me.. twice. Tho neither ended well in the long run, it was good to end the facade of ‘friends’ and enjoy the ride for what it was worth.
Having said that, my advice would still be to absolutely AVOID getting shoved into that box in the first place and walk away at first sexual rejection, unless this chick is swimming in tons of single available friends you can bounce to.
But even then never give or do things for an LJBF girl that you would not do for any other person. You can tease to show them what they’re missing, but never follow up on it unless they’re willing to give up the goods in return.
Emily 83
Funny, i didn’t see you busting down my bathroom door or smashing into my car this morning?
Kind of a disconnect: The article mentions “agony”, and the comments are pretty much about getting laid.
Separate issues. The “agony” is the emotional feeling when a woman you like, love, really feature, tells you she doesn’t feel the same. Nothing to do with getting laid or not.
While it’s not true you “can always get laid”, the fact is, the agony of LJBF isn’t a matter of not getting laid.
Said it before. Back in the day when I worked in a lowly position for the Dean of Students, it wasn’t the guys who couldn’t get laid we had to watch. It was the guys who’d been turned away by a woman they damn’ near loved. That’s agony.
You’re right Rich, but the key component here is that sex is the key element missing in the one sided relationship of LJBF. The man is expected to at bare minimum remain platonic friends and bury his ‘feelings’ of love, while at worst, has his feelings used against him when the woman who knows he has these feelings extracts emotional support, time, and resources from him while not returning anything in the form of the male need for intimacy and sex. This becomes amplified if the woman is also receiving sex from another man who IS NOT providing these things for her and she uses the LJBF as a crutch or emotional tampon.
That’s why sex has to be used as the trigger to destroy this situation right off the bat. Down to the crunch it’s about ‘getting laid’ because if you’re not having sex.. you’re just friends. That’s why the comments revolve around getting laid. But to the bigger picture at hand, you are correct. There is much more to the agony than just the not getting laid part.
“A hot friend may have other hot friends.”
Bingo. However, I’d only advise this if you’re not actually interested in the girl emotionally (most orbiters are). Just take your rejection, be her friend, and you’ll often get led to her hot friends, who have not LJBF you. If you were just into it for sex, who cares if she rejected you. Take her up on the friends piece, and use it to meet her hot friends.
@Gorb
Great LJBF strategies, I cosign. Some may be surprised, since I am not a fan of instilling dread, but if there’s one place I give it a thumbs up it’s when you’re orbiting and getting no traction.
+1
M3. I was speaking of the old days, half a century ago, when the likelihood of sex early, or at all, was considerably less than today. While I think agreeing to sex might be right up there as the ultimate compliment, and the completion of the emotional connection, there’s more.
Nevertheless, let’s presume a guy’s getting it all from the woman and then she turns him away. It’s not the loss of sex which hurts, it’s the emotional issue.
Let’s presume a guy is somewhere on the road, he thinks, to sex but she stops him. What she’s done is decline the Big Step in the relationship. As long as it’s not ONS, it’s “she really, really likes me”. Which is the point. Now she clearly doesn’t and that’s the agony.
Third case; he doesn’t approach and hangs around trying to be nice so she’ll see his true worth and make the move he’s scared to make. Hell, he’s not even moving on the emotional side. Terrible longing.
Some guys, some guys at a certain stage of the relationship, are looking for the emotional connection, not in isolation, but as a positive good, a really positive good, and failing to get it, or having it taken away, is a hell of a note.
@Richard Aubrey
Good point, I’m glad you made it.
@Ali: “they always have the confidence, the peace-of-mind, that their current boyfriend is replaceable and they can hop into another relationship tomorrow if they wanted. They never have to worry about this.”
I do agree that dating and mating dynamics are not equal, but I have to disagree with “hop into another relationship.” We can hop into another bed, but certainly not anther relationship. The entry to relationship land is guarded by the guy. Sex land is guarded by the lady.
i’ve been on more than one date where the girls said afterwards she wasn’t “feeling it” but she’d love to see me again.
smh.
my response- “no, no point in that. apparently i’m looking for a romantic partner, and you’re looking for a sucker. it was fun, ni-night.”
i’ve actually had women escalate after doing that.
Royale: “The entry to relationship land is guarded by the guy. Sex land is guarded by the lady.”
Classic apex fallacy, intellectual shame on you.
@danny
I have witnessed girls going from “I don’t want to see his penis!” to “I want to hook up with him” based on nothing more than a well played response to LJBF.
@Susan #100
That’s seems a little unsettling to me (although not completely unbelievable) – it makes their state-of-attraction far too unstable, especially if a response to a LJBF attempt can produce polar-opposite reactions, and not seem unbelievable.
For some reason in my mind, it makes me imagine how a dog gets excited about his ball being thrown – it has nothing to do with the actual ball in hand, and it is all about how you shake your hand around teasing that you’re gonna throw it. And it turns out the balls was actually in the off-hand the enter time!
Lol, and in that metaphor Game would be the equivalent to knowing you can do just as well waving around a empty hand.
i’ve actually had women escalate after doing that.
“”I have witnessed girls going from “I don’t want to see his penis!” to “I want to hook up with him” based on nothing more than a well played response to LJBF.”"
This has to be a joke. Please? In my world, women are NOT THAT DUMB.
.
Further to the agony, and the pill question:
Been laid up for two weeks with a detached retina. No reading, computing, writing. Television was allowed. Desperately seeking diversion, I found a high triple-digit channel which played easy listening music.
For you youngsters: Easy listening is generally slow tempo love songs from the Forties on, the early ones covered by later artists. It was a big business. The Lettermen. Andy Williams. Burt Bacharach. Frank Chacksfield. Enoch Light. There were easy listening radio stations. There were easy listening groups–Lettermen incandescently popular on campus in the Sixties and Seventies–and orchestras and concerts. Some songs were sort of like Simon and Garfunkle without the folk. Many were instrumental versions. Some weren’t even love songs. “Moon River” was a kind of word/mood painting.
So I listened to this stuff and figured I knew some of the lyrics to about two-thirds. Scary.
They pushed, and/or parelleled or accompanied the blue pill. “I chased the bright, elusive butterfly of love.”
There was no red pill, no how, no way.
This reflected a large part of social views on the subject, and in reflecting back to society its views, was kind of a positive feedback mechanism.
Nothing about getting laid or not. And it was the part of the emotional life which is affected by rejection, particularly that which is not cauterized by just leaving, but by continuing to orbit.
Which brings up a question or two. In those days, guys who had the red pill were swimming up stream. They were not particularly affected by that part of society’s views manifested in easy listening and installed by the hour each week since you couldn’t get away from it entirely, even if you preferred Louie Louie to everything else since Mozart.
To avoid the blue pill in those days was tougher. I suspect people who don’t absorb society’s implied views are sometimes sociopaths. Or at least not in the mainstream, and used to severely going their own way.
Which means the edgy guy, the dangerous guy, the outlier, the guy who stole hubcaps, was pretty much the only guy who didn’t buy the blue program.
Last question: Where did blue come from and who did it benefit?
Tia-
lol. girls, 99 problems and a chick ain’t one.
@Cooper
That’s not a bad metaphor for Game.
@Richard Aubrey
This is how it goes:
Guy is supplicating, eager and devoted. Every action towards his beloved kills the tingle. She LJBFs him. He says, “I’m outta here” and starts hanging out with other people, including some girls. Beloved finds herself piqued that Guy is not paying attention to her. Guy says, “I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.” Beloved tingles like mad.
Of course, this is dependent on Guy being able to go balls to the wall and be a hardass. If he can do it, his odds are probably 50/50.
Susan. In your world, women are that dumb. Too bad. If it works, jeez it’s awful to contemplate.
I recall back in the day in a group in difficult circumstances where I got some IOIs. Figured that, when times are tough, the uterus says to the brain, “Find somebody who can take care of business and we’ll worry about table manners later.” Of course, it would be rationalized by tingles, but I figured that by the time we headed home it would fade and by the time we were north of the Ohio River–it was civil rights work in the Sixties–she/they would be thinking, “What the hell did I just do and why?” So I stayed clear and, sure enough, none of the women involved bothered to contact me the rest of the summer when we were winding things up and there was plenty of excuse. So I get the idea that tingles might come from understandable circumstance, but this “Seeya kid, got places to go,” as a cause…. Man, I don’t want to think about it.
Thinking of Toby Keith’s “How Do You Like Me Now?” with its plain baggage of resentment and triumph.
@Susan #107
Isn’t that the sadness thing, though?
I don’t know if you remember the time I shared the story about how I learned to be content with what I have, and no ever seek “greener fields.”
It was when I was very young, and kids used to argue/negotiate tirelessly to trade their toys for anothers toy. And the remorse one felt after successfully trading, and realizing that you never even wanted the thing THAT bad, and thus was the lesson of “greener on the other side.”
Is this what female-attraction boils down to? Seeking what you can’t have?
The lesson from the “greener field” metaphor is that the condition of each field is irrelevant, and it’s simply the perception for each side that makes one desire the other.
So, how can women go from being appauled by supplicating behavior (hence the LJBF attempt) to “OMG I need him in my pants!”?
Since it happens, I can’t help but conclude women’s attraction ques are as immature as I was when I was 4 – powerless to the whims of desire (fooled by the greener field).
It’s so so silly that you can accept that a women’s attraction has very little to do with the qaulity of the suitor at hand, and much much more to do with his availability towards her.
How can Game (learning to wave around an empty hand, whilst hiding the ball in your off-hand) be the appropriate solution!!
I apologize for the rant, but I’ve been heavily into this whole human-sexuality, Game, attraction, ect. for nearly 6-months now, and I still haven’t been reassured about what I’m looking for is evem possible, or culturally existant. I want to believe that LOVE exist! And that life-long commitment is achievable.
But the more, and more, I learn I find increasing evidence that suggest character, quality, ect. are meaningless.. And that combat-dating strategies are the only truth that exist, and the moment one relinquishes themselves to another they become worthless to that person. It’s all just a neverendigngbattle for power-position, principle-of-least-interest, who has more options elsewhere, who’s playing hard to get, ect.
Are we all seriously dogs chasing an empty hand!!!? (most of my questions are rhetorical, if not always)
How can we just accept that attraction is all about how one waves around their hands. Have you ever tried to fight someone for the attention of a dog? It’s pointless, the dog is just going to follow whoever waves the most. Why would anyone seriously bother themselves with trying to maintain that attention, when it’s completely unpredictable.
Sorry, in my defence I have just come off a weekend where 5 of my peers (3girls, 2guys) all agreed that marriage isn’t natural, and that they all actually agreed to “punch each other in the face” if they consider getting married.
“Guy is supplicating, eager and devoted. Every action towards his beloved kills the tingle. She LJBFs him. He says, “I’m outta here” and starts hanging out with other people, including some girls. Beloved finds herself piqued that Guy is not paying attention to her. Guy says, “I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.” Beloved tingles like mad.”
AAAAAAAHHHHGGGGGG!!!!!! *bangs head on desk*
Cooper. What you said.
But I come at it from the POV of not wanting to see ostensibly sentient beings act that way.
As when I encountered a roaring, slavering German Shepherd. I looked at him sharply and he retreated, yowling, as fast as his legs could carry him, the hind ones being entangled with is tail.
I felt ashamed for the breed, which is odd since I’m not one.
Cooper, my man… you seem to have put into words what i’ve been trying to articulate all my life and unable to do so.
the best i ever came up with was ‘why can’t it be like a Disney movie for real… does real love exist? all true love is unrequited is it not? the doing of something for another without expectation?’
and then you get all the answers in the form of
-nah thats too beta, too suplicating
-you need to do x or she’ll y, and then you both z
-you need dominance
-but don’t use dread
-yada yada
so i feel your pain dude. i almost want to immortalize your comment here in a blog post.
“Are we all seriously dogs chasing an empty hand!!!?”
It’s kinda like that moment when you realize there is no god and you’re just as tiny as the ant you stepped on in the grand scheme of the universe.
For all our evolution and civilization, the vast majority of us will never transcend into being more than just a dog.
‘nother reason for objecting to “you lost, babe” as a slam-dunk tingle-inducer. While I suppose reaping the benefits is nice, it means, as a man, you won because you had a really, really simple, stupid, half-ass, lame line ready.
Not that she sees any quality in you.
Shudder.
Well, I’m glad my rant drew support.
Seriously, though, after all my time learning about this stuff it seems like misogyny is a crutial element of being a man – especially an alpha.
How women can switch from thinking “[he] is supplicating, eager and devoted.” And I’m not attracted to him, in the least – to being ” Guy says, “I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.” Beloved tingles like mad.” IS IRRATIONAL AT BEST. And the fact that women will do so without a second thought as to what that says about themselves, just shows how they have little, to no, appreciation for integrity.
@M3
I realized there wasn’t a god long ago. (after years of voluntary involvement in religion – I used to ask questions that even made the youth Pastors scratch their heads.)
But I always had faith in love. (my parents met at 13, married at 19, and owned 3 boats, travelled, before having their two kids 15years later – ideal IMO)
As I go on, I feel like they were a fluke, and I’d be severely putting myself at risk if I were to allow myself to marry. With how unstable a women’s attraction can be, I feel like wedding vows are like “a mood.” Who knows when she’ll start panting at the sight of another field. (and as I said above, it seems qaulity isn’t determining in that attraction, just simply the POV)
@Richard
I know exactly what you mean. I have a tendency to growl back at them too. And especially if it’s a dog that is as large as a man – like one I could imagine being a fair fight – I usually am immediately thinking about what my emergency action is going to be if he comes at me. I sware dogs can sense this, and really big dogs usually stay away from me.
“Guy says, ‘I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.’ Beloved tingles like mad.”
What if Guy actually means it?
Cooper. I wasn’t talking about my basilisk gaze, but the unaccountable shame that came over me for German Shepherds when one ran away. It bothers me in some related way to be told that women think the way Susan has described. We’re talking about H. Sap here. Humans are not supposed to act like that.
“How women can switch from thinking “[he] is supplicating, eager and devoted.” And I’m not attracted to him, in the least – to being ” Guy says, “I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.” Beloved tingles like mad.” IS IRRATIONAL AT BEST.”
Disdain for the “clinger” and favor for the aloof is not a foreign concept to men. This implies that both genders, women and men, can be irrational.
Funny. I like my women clingy. Not suction cup or saran wrap clingy but enough to know they like being around me.
Of course, if a woman tells me ‘Fuck off, im done with you” and we were never in a relationship, you can bet your ass im walking away from that shit. (as i did a month ago) Now if i am i a relationship and i hear that, i will attempt to figure out whats wrong to try and fix it, but in no way beg for it. (as i did with my marriage fail)
This is far removed from a woman who has NO relationship with a guy at all and all of a sudden ‘MY GOD I MUST HAVE HIS BABIES’ because he tells her to fuck off and done with her?
Heaven help us.
@Susan,
Gorb
Great LJBF strategies, I cosign. Some may be surprised, since I am not a fan of instilling dread, but if there’s one place I give it a thumbs up it’s when you’re orbiting and getting no traction.
Actually, I know you dislike dread, and we both agree here, but the number of situations in which a finely honed strategy of instilling the correct amount of dread is quite expansive.
But it needs to be tailored carefully, and as a relationship develops, you need to use dread very, very carefully and in a precisely-targeted fashion. Still, it remains useful for maintaining some hand in a relationship.
Even after 1. 8 years, and an impending marriage, my SO still predictably is more tractable and appreciates me *more* when there’s a bit of tingle from this.
Of course, she doesn’t quite understand why. The magic of female attraction.
@Susan,
Richard Aubrey: This has to be a joke. Please? In my world, women are NOT THAT DUMB.
Susan: This is how it goes:
Guy is supplicating, eager and devoted. Every action towards his beloved kills the tingle. She LJBFs him. He says, “I’m outta here” and starts hanging out with other people, including some girls. Beloved finds herself piqued that Guy is not paying attention to her. Guy says, “I’m done being your bitch. Fuck off.” Beloved tingles like mad.
Of course, this is dependent on Guy being able to go balls to the wall and be a hardass. If he can do it, his odds are probably 50/50.
Susan, this is bang-on in one respect: The few times this worked for me, I went “balls to the wall” and had no break in my frame. It was successful only a few times, out of a good bit more, but when it was, it generally tended to hammer the women’s psyches. One was utterly devoted. She used to call me “her sexy BF”, and then “Her sexy man” – and she was, ostensibly, way out of my league. I ended up ending it, but the conclusion for me was:
it works, but you’re about 50-50, as you say. At that point, if yo ucan pull it off, the odds are statistically not really in your favor (possible doesn’t mena probable). But it’s better than the LJBF zone.
Robert Aubrey: Susan. In your world, women are that dumb. Too bad. If it works, jeez it’s awful to contemplate.
Robert, women aren’t this dumb – it’s basic female psychology. It’s not rational. They really do this. Human beings actually are this predictable.
Men are predictable, too. Go to a bar and observe the behavior around the three hot blonde chicks. It’s likc clockwork.
The thing is, the reason we think women are so mysterious and tricky is because we approach them as if they were men (their roles are different; exchange roles and who knows, the behavior might change, too; it might not be genetic, just related to having a womb or not, which amounts to the same thing, but in principle…). If you approach them while trying to understand why they do things, and not just what they do, this behavior isn’t surprising at all.
Evolutionary psychology may be a murky and bug-infested swamp, with treacherous miasmas leadaing hapless daters astray.
But no matter what haters and feminist ideologues say, all of this nonsense makes sense of of otherwise inscrutable female datign behavior. There’s something to it.
Whether people like it or not.
Wow, this thread got dark, depressing and accurate.
The reason I come here is because, while I always thought NAWALT, this place underlines that fact. A lot of women here are not like that. This place gives me more hope for society. Mostly due to Susan being willing to get down to talking about uncomfortable truths about both sexes, and to strive to keep the discussion on track(ish). I haven’t found anywhere else that has such interesting debates. That said, however, given the length of threads here, I don’t have much time, or desire, to look…
Personally, I’m not optimistic that I’ll find a mutually attractive woman looking for an LTR (marriage is no longer on the table), the costs in time, effort and money make it not a game worth playing. PUA? no, those guys can do what they want, but it isn’t me. So, I’d classify myself as MGTOW. If something turns up, fine. But ‘the game’ is not worth playing.
Game itself is very interesting, in a pull the legs off a spider kind of way. Love it, or loathe it, there’s a lot of reality in it. And this will continue to be the case until women (NAWALT) stop rewarding bad boy behaviour. You cannot shame 100% of men out of bad boy tactics, but women can make bad boy tactics into a losing proposition by removing the pay-off.
If, and I mean “if” any of this “adios, kid” thing ever worked for me, it was a long time ago and I didn’t notice it. After decades, I recall, I think, some IOI from women whom I was not dating but with whom I was associated for some other reason–work, or something–and possibly the reason I recall the IOI is that they were so overt that they probably followed more traditional IOI which got them nowhere. Missed them all, which, perversely, may have ginned up the kind of thing Susan has mentioned.
It’s one thing to keep pursuing that which you like. It’s another to like something simply because it’s leaving when you didn’t like it before. Eesh.
“Disdain for the “clinger” and favor for the aloof is not a foreign concept to men. This implies that both genders, women and men, can be irrational.”
I can see the difference between a clingy person and aloof person, but I can wrap my head around the attraction can do a polar-switch with the same person. It means that ever negative they initially saw wasn’t, and all the likable attributes all of a sudden are – which simple suggest that actual qaulity is not contributing factor.
This actually coincides with the theory of Game how any man can do it. (with enough of a aloof attitude)
I always thought the whole bad boy epidemic was just immature girls unknowingly choosing poor qaulity guys, but now I see it’s a universally accepted attractor.
So, as a guy who prefers to be nice, what am I to do? The next time I’m dealing with someone I’m interested in, I’m probably going to tell her “fuck off” cause it seems that is ‘game’ way to do it.
It seems like a x20 better strategy than to ever confess that I care for her, or discuss the relationship at all. And it would be suuuuuuchhh aaa DHV!!!
Make sure to emphasize that he did not completely exit her world. As Gorb aptly pointed out, he needs to make sure that she is aware that he is succeeding socially. Of course, this needs to be done well, and not ham-handedly.
@Gorb, #119
I totally agree with your general sentiment of “a dater’s gotta do what a dater’s gotta do.” Observe, identify realistic opportunity, calculate, and act. Often times I have to set aside my own idealism just to get past the front door with guys. For instance, scientific intelligence does not rank above looks and nurturing behaviors as desirable traits in women. People can protest that unsavory idea all they want, and point out all the exceptional men, but that’s the condition in the field. Accepting this has gotten me more dates. Quality dates will come with luck. Luck is increased by numbers.
There are unsavory and arguably irrational tendencies on both sides of the gender fence. The more both sides acknowledge this, the less confused and dismayed we’ll all be. Just take note and try to figure out what works without harming anyone and everything will work out in the end.
Nor, should it.
I’ve been giving this a lot of thought.
I think we’re aware that their is a SMP and a MMP.
Men, and women, will often separate their partners into either the SMP or the MMP groups. Thus is why very promiscuous women will report having problems receiving commitment, and men with potentially higher MMP than SMP value will report having problems acquiring casual partners.
I think there are many complaints from both men and women that can be associated with the differentiating treatment between the MMP and SMP groups. A perfect example being the price-decrimination complaint by MMP-men when a women wants them to wait for the sex. (when to the women, she has simply categorized him as having a better long-term potential than those who she may have slept with quicker in a strictly casual setting) This is really a miscommunication. And for women it’s confusing, and potentially hurtful, because men will often happily sleep with women that they’ll place in either SMP/MMP piles.
Eveyone following so far? Good.
Now, this “adios, babe” attitude really becomes present when man searching for someone, with MMP-value, and gets LJBF’d. And he essentially switches his attitude from being supplicating to being aloof. I believe the aloofness surfaces when the man no longer considers the woman a MMP-prospect, and begins thinking of the woman as SMP-only. The allure of alpha men is that they are so resistant to giving up the MMP-categorization.
This SMP/MMP catorgization is also evident with women as well, as they will comfortably risk being in a SMP-only (aka casual-only) pile with a higher-value man.
So, the conclusion I’ve come to is that women are attracted to being stuck in the SMP-pile. It’s the only thing that can explain the polar-switch, in terms of attraction, when dealing with the exact same man – once being placed in the SMP-group they yearn to being MMP-worthy.
I may have just rediscovered the fundamentals of Game. It’s essentially to stop looking for long-term prospects and to, at least initially, treat women with strictly short-term mating strategies in mind- and they’ll love you for it.
@Cooper
Well, that’s a cliche isn’t it – as Woody Allen said, “I don’t want to belong to any club that will have me as a member.” It’s not just women, it’s part of the human condition, and I think it’s about striving to excel, an important drive.
However, I don’t think that *most* women are doomed to long for men they can’t have. But you can help us realize what a great catch you are by not buying in before you even know us. This is where a lot of guys go wrong. Supplication and eagerness, even from the handsomest guy in the world, will turn off women. I’ve seen this happen to handsome betas again and again. IIRC, you’re a handsome beta, so you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Why does this happen? Because women understand that men are the gatekeepers to commitment, and while we expect you to offer your body immediately, we’re wary of a man who’s ready to commit without qualifying us first. Just as you would be wary of a woman who seemed surprised and disappointed that you didn’t pressure her for sex the first night. We want to win your heart, through effort, by being pleasing and attractive in the ways that men want in a long-term partner. If you go all in too soon, when we know we haven’t even busted our best moves, it’s anticlimactic. And we wonder what your hurry is – are you on the rebound? Am I the only girl you’ve ever dated? etc.
I think the most important thing you can do is seek women who have the same mindset you do. They are definitely out there, and they’re not the women you’re hanging out with. Of my 24 focus group girls, some of whom are a bit promiscuous, every single one hopes to marry. It sounds to me like you’re spending all your time with women in that dreaded 20%, and that’s not a good match for you.
@Cooper
Why do you think we call a desirable guy “a catch?” Because you shouldn’t be easy to reel in!
Do you want an easy girl? Well, we don’t want an easy guy!
It’s not that misogyny is required, in fact, any woman who goes for that is a self-loathing head case. It’s the reverse – we want to know that you consider yourself the prize. So if you don’t, that’s where you need to tighten your Game. Don’t worry about what women want, or what they say they want. Know your own value, your own worth, and the rest will follow. Trust me.
/peptalkover
@JMCI
It will be 100% ineffective unless he means it. And if it doesn’t work out with her, then Guy has learned an important lesson. Don’t be any woman’s bitch, ever.
Oh really? What are humans supposed to act like? We’re animals, and we have base instincts. Incentives drive behavior. It’s very bad strategy to romanticize h. sap.
OK, let’s not get carried away. I said she would tingle. As in, “Hmmm, is there something to this guy I failed to see? Do I need to take a second look?” And truthfully, if he was orbiting and gazing at her adoringly, it would have been difficult for her to see his strength. We need to see your strength.
@Ramble, “Nor, should it.”
Why not? According to logic and rationality there are lots of reasons to rank scientific intelligence above looks in women. My point s that this is another example of where logic is not applied. It’s all about preference and tingles.
“It bothers me in some related way to be told that women think the way Susan has described. We’re talking about H. Sap here. Humans are not supposed to act like that.
Oh really? What are humans supposed to act like? We’re animals, and we have base instincts. Incentives drive behavior. It’s very bad strategy to romanticize h. sap.”
Yeah, I know. But we have the forebrain and we’re supposed to use it. Maybe it’s just me. Years ago, when there were more caveman movies than now, for some reason, was Quest for Fire. I’ve done a fair amount of anthro for an amateur and I know a bit about it, ergaster and erectus and neanderthal and all the rest. I know about violence and small group dynamics and fear.
So I had no problem with some of the stuff. But when the actors decided to screech and scratch themselves, I got annoyed. MY ANCESTORS, WHATEVER THEIR OTHER SINS, DID NOT ACT LIKE MONKEYS.
I am reminded that, decades ago winding up a field project, a Psych MS on the way to a fully-paid Ivy PhD course remarked, “Aubrey, you’re rational. That’s good for you. Not so hot for the people you deal with.” I get by, but from time to time, I remember him. I’m glad I didn’t go into the pshrink biz despite my BA in psych. My tool kit is “I told you what to do, you moron. You didn’t do it.” Then I’m out of techniques. What more is there to say to a certified H. Sap? Ideally, nothing.
Anyway, like shit tests, the problem with the response to “adios, kid” is likely to miss the good ones who won’t put up with shit tests and take the woman home early and not call again. You can be attracted but , as with Keith’s “How Do You Like Me Now”, you’ve just shown how incredibly superficial you are. Who wants that? Not the good ones. If you screw up, learn, don’t pull the same crap on the next guy. Women are allowed to learn, aren’t they?
Jeez, you’d think a guy would be too proud to hang with a woman that irrational. She going to cross the expressway blindfolded next, just because?
>> “Sorry, in my defence I have just come off a weekend where 5 of my peers (3girls, 2guys) all agreed that marriage isn’t natural, and that they all actually agreed to “punch each other in the face” if they consider getting married.”
I used to hear conversations like that all the time.
I think that sort of attitude is REALLY common on the West Coast. I think people used to think I was kind of crazy for being honest about actually wanting to get married some day. As we discovered over at the forum, you’re in a city that has a particularly hostile SMP/MMP.
FWIW, I remember feeling VERY frustrated a few years ago because I couldn’t find a guy like you. (And although some of the guys will never believe me, I’m NOT an alpha-chaser.)
Based on everything you’ve said here before, you’re looking for a kind of girl that’s very rare in your environment. That being said, you yourself are a rare commodity.
I think geography can play a huge role in all this SMP stuff, and you’re definitely in a “level: hard” environment.
@Just1X
Agreed. It’s interesting, because when I talk about male promiscuity here, men often accuse me of attempting to shame males in some sort of cheap shot. I can’t think of a less effective approach to curbing bad boy tactics, as men have considerable incentives to employ them.
My approach is really designed to do the opposite. By pointing out the high level of risk a woman is assuming by having sex with a high N man, I’m removing the incentives for females, or trying to. A virgin who has sex with a high count guy is risking her health and fertility in a very real way, and that risk is large. She’s also compromising her MMV, or LTRV, but that argument is much more effective when STDs come into play.
The fact that so many men are carriers of incurable STDs without even knowing it means that one cannot take any man’s word for it. If staying away from promiscuous men is the only way that women can be sure of avoiding sores, pustules, cervical cancer or any of the other delights high N people deliver, the argument will be a powerful one. Of course, guys can suffer the same fate with a slut, though they are less likely to get infected than women are. Still, throat and mouth cancers in men are rising steeply from HPV, albeit it from a very small base.
Sorry to keep dragging the thread backwards, but that actually happened to me a little while ago. The guy was pretty sort of in the friendzone, (bit different because we were sleeping together occasionally) I did know really that he was more interested in me than I was in him, but I kind of brushed it aside because as I said we’d slept together, and he’s a guy, so my thinking was he’s probably happy with that right? Initially he just seemed so massively keen and available all the time that it was hard to appreciate him, although gradually as I got to know him better I noticed things I hadn’t before, and started to appreciate his sweetness. After several months I’d actually grown quite sweet on him, but by this point he’d began to withdraw, I really missed him and it drove me crazy. Shocked me because I didn’t really think I was such a masochist like that, definately a lesson learned there.
@Cooper
You’re missing something important here. There may have been the potential for sexual attraction all along, but the beta behavior was suppressing it. By backing off, he gives the woman an opportunity to experience the potential loss of him, and to consider a change in the nature of the relationship. This can and often does allow the attraction to be expressed, perhaps for the first time. Usually, women are not trying to be BFFs with men they don’t find at least somewhat attractive, objectively speaking. Having guy friends is a way to access a group of males with similar (or higher) SMV. (Gay BFFs excepted, obviously).
As I said above, though, I’d give this 50/50 odds at best – it will only work if the potential for attraction was there. But I have seen it happen – at least a dozen times.
I’ll second that, got to be the potential to start off with, it’s stupid really but I think it’s like you do see the good attributes, but they’re so convinced that you’re too good for them or whatever then they must know something you don’t? That’s the impression it gives I think. Like others have said though a wise girl would see through all that.
I don’t think I was fishing for a peptalk on how to “tighten my game.” Surely, you must understand that guys don’t take kindly to the “man up!” speech.
What this has taught me is LJBF is essentially a shit test. If women are so much more attracted to a guy walking away, then denying a LJBF is a subtle test – to see if he has “the balls.” (something which could be applied to ever guy in their lives until she finds one willing to walk)
So, basically I shouldn’t be friends with any women, or be willing to hang out with them, unless I receiving sex from one of the women. Because otherwise I don’t “have balls” and won’t seem attractive. (cause clearly qaulity isn’t a factor)
The problem I have with preselection being so powerful is that it teaches women to look for men willing to walk away as a sign of high quality. Which in some case may be true, but more often than not it’s just a sign that the guy isn’t willing to put in the effort.
That’s where the dog chasing the empty hand metaphor came from. A dog places so much emphasis on the shaking of a hand as evidence that there’s a ball, that it wouldn’t even notice a ball sitting front of them, nor that the hand is in fact empty.
Getting so excited about a guy willing to walk essentially is falling fool to an empty waving hand.
Sure, it is part of the human condition – cause it’s curiosity. There’s things we learn that shows us our nature is sometime inherently wrong.
If you ask people to choose between a (empty) closed-hand and a open-hand with a dollar on it, many people will choose the mystery of the one not shown.
It’s like the old saying “one in the hand is better than two in the bush” it address the fact that our nature will trick us into giving up one (birds) to chase two. The human nature part has us want to drop what we’ve caught and go for more, and the wisdom part says it’s more smart to hang onto what you already caught. (this is not a metaphor for the SMP, just one to show the human condition can be misleading)
Anyways, I’m not trying to change the world here – just expressing my logic.
@Cooper
Eh, I’m not a disciple re preselection. IMO, it’s a bell curve. I think what women view as a sign of high quality is a man’s being willing to walk away from a woman he cares about rather than be taken advantage of and used for her needs when his own are not being met.
It’s about self-respect, which is a form of strength, which is what shit tests reveal. If you don’t think highly enough of yourself to remove yourself from the company of a woman who does not care for you, why should she? In this way, your rejecting her can win you new respect in her eyes, and that is not so far removed from attraction.
I think you’re viewing this in very black and white terms. It’s not that we like to be rejected, it’s that we want a man who is selective, so that we know we actually accomplished something wonderful in earning his affection. If you’re handing out unconditional love and adoration to women just for the way they look or based on a very short acquaintance, you’re telegraphing that you are “easy to get,” i.e. not discerning about commitment. This is analagous to the male bias against a woman who is not discerning about sex.
“We need to see your strength”
Romanticizing the tripping of a switch in the circuitry.
That’s fair enough. Which is why i encourage all guys to break friendzones where possible. Announce your interests, get your answer and move forward. If they reject you, walk away, even if they tingle afterwards.. reward them only with the knowledge that as a spoiled child who refused ice cream only to want it later that they can no longer have it, no matter how hard they might pine for it.
Turnabout is wonderful.
M3. I’ll refer again to Toby Keith’s “How Do You Like Me Now?”
Thing is, the singer thinks/knows he’s the same guy who got rejected–from context it was in high school or shortly thereafter–and who now is wildly successful.
The woman in question likes him now. Why now? Same guy as then. Only difference is success. Therefore, she doesn’t like him, she likes the trappings of success. Proves she’s a gold-digging, hypocritical bitch. But, having shown it to him, and it’s clear to her he sees it, he’s no longer interested. How do you like rejection, huh?
But he’s still resentful of her earlier rejection.
Now, let’s say the woman is doing what she should do to find an alpha with the good genes and all that crazy shit. Still have the fact that she didn’t care for the essential him until he proved that the essential him was good enough by stacking up the bling. Now she sees. Nope. Forget it.
If you promote the legitimacy of a woman liking/non-liking a guy based on the bling, based on the material evidence of dealing competently with the world–presuming his competence is rewarded on his pay stub and not some other way–then the other side of the coin is inevitable. The woman in question looks like a gold-digger.
Not at all. Tripping a switch is exactly what it is, which is why it’s so pointless to whinge and whine about female sexuality. Just as it is pointless for us to get all butthurt that our SO can look at another woman and want to have sex with her. I’m getting upset just from typing that last bit out.
To be completely honest, I don’t like the “human condition” excuse being used for either sex.
I wouldn’t dare taking a women to a restaurant with hot waitresses and explain “you must excuse my heavy glances, because human nature says it’s the male prerogative to fantasize about mating with them – hence the long stares.”
It’s actually very similar to a personal example. Where recently a friend, whoms girlfriend is visiting home in Asia for a month, was excused for having consecutive ONS while she’s away – cause ‘he’s a man.’
Don’t we have to drop that argument eventually? Or is human nature never to be excused, nor suppressed?
If I recall Tiger Woods has had some negative media attention is recent years. Wasn’t he obeying his human nature when he used his “status” to obtain multiple mating partners – something that males have done for centuries? (*cough Bill Clinton)
Are these men suppose to be shamed, or not?
@Cooper
You’re describing why character is so necessary. We do have base instincts and character (along with reason) is what enables us to rise above them. I believe the quality of a mate is directly related to his or her ability to do just that. A woman who is very hypergamous? Not a good bet. Who gives constant shit tests? Not fun to be around. A guy who can’t stop looking at other women while out with his gf? Lacks empathy.
And yes, I believe that shame is a useful way of corralling the undesirable behavior of both sexes.
Having said that, there are some things we really don’t want to get rid, I don’t think. It makes sense that as a society we value most that which is rare and difficult to earn. We revere doctors because they study for 8 years. We admire astronauts and Navy SEALs. It’s appropriate that we should seek discernment in a mate.
Susan, if it’s just tripping a switch in a circuit, why the need to romanticize it?
I don’t recall being a supplicant, so I can’t say whether “adios, my friend” worked one way or another. But if I had been, and done it, I think discovering it made a Big Diff in her attitude would have really annoyed me and it would have been impossible to go back and/or change/improve the relationship. Jeez. How shallow.
@Richard
That’s a good point. It’s a terrible way for two people to get together.
I agree with Richard. If I were to realize that such a change had occurred, so quickly, I’d recognize it as a red flag.
I was mentioning above how I think some guys will happily sleep with someone even after they’ve disqualified them for commitment. This “audios” scenario seems to be a great example.
A guy looking for a relationship material girl might come off as supplicating, or too devoted, but then switches to being attractive once he’s in the “Next!” attitude. If that guy turns around,there is a chance he does so in a P&D mode, and no longer a LTR-mode.
Does anyone else think it’s to do with self esteem and maturity as much as just standard female attraction, I mean what does it say about you if you think there must be something wrong with anyone who likes you that much?
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