The annual AskMen Great Male Survey is out (H/T Zach) and it always provides interesting fodder for discussion. There’s also a smaller companion Female Survey, administered by the website Pop Sugar.
A note about the respondents:
AskMen is an online men’s lifestyle site whose mission is “helping guys become better men.” They target ages 18-34, and have 19 million readers per month.
PopSugar is a women’s lifestyle site, targeting females 18-40, with 28 million readers per month. This is PopSugar’s first year hosting the female survey – the prior two years it was hosted by Cosmopolitan magazine.
The total number of survey takers is more than 50,000, and that is not split between women and men. In recent years, the male survey alone garnered over 50,000 responses, and last year the female survey had 13,000 respondents.
The male survey splits results out by country, including the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia. The female survey does not break it down.
I have no information re sexual orientation of the respondents.
Some of the responses on the female survey seem a little wacky, as you’ll see. It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test, but I offer the findings here for you to debate as you will.
Here are the most interesting results:
Update: I forgot a couple of great questions!
What is the ultimate male status symbol?
A family: 41%
A high-profile career: 31%
A beautiful wife or girlfriend: 15%
A beautiful car: 6%
A beautiful house: 5%
A membership to an exclusive club: 2%
50% of American man said “a family.”
What defines a “real woman” in 2012?
Being financially independent: 24%
Being successful and fulfilled in her career: 21%
None of the above: 15%
Being a great mother and wife who takes care of her family: 14%
Being charismatic and popular: 1%
Being attractive and a great lover: 25%
1. Of the four choices listed below, which is the most important personality trait for deciding if a woman is “relationship material”?
A sense of loyalty: Men 36%, Women 42%
A sense of caring/nurturing: Men 23%, Women N/A
The ability to protect: Men N/A, Women 28%
A sense of humor: Men 22%, Women 7%
Intelligence: Men 19%, Women 23%
American men prioritized loyalty much more highly than other men (47%) and ranked intelligence second (21%). British men rank sense of humor as important as loyalty, both at 30%.
2. Do you believe in the institution of marriage?
Yes, I believe it is a necessary institution and one in which I will participate to help preserve:
Men 70%, Women 44%*
Yes, I believe in it as an institution, but it is not for me:
Men 18%, Women 20%
No, I do not believe in it:
Men 12%, Women 36%
*This is the first wacky number. The 2011 Great Female Survey indicated that 83% of women selected this option. I can’t explain why it would have decreased 47% in one year. Here is a 2011 chart from Pew Research that shows the sexes in line re marriage (U.S. only):
American men are the most committed to marriage (79%), Brits the least (61%).
3. How satisfied are you with your sex life?
Somewhat satisfied; there is room for improvement: Men 41%, Women 24%
I have no sex life: Men 12%, Women 27%
Not satisfied with quantity: Men 14%, Women 5% 
Completely satisfied: Men 14%, Women 19%
Not satisfied with quality: Men 7%, Women 25%
“There’s an old joke – um… two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of ‘em says, “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.” The other one says, “Yeah, I know; and such small portions.”"
Woody Allen
American men are the most satisfied (67% are completely or somewhat satisfied), and have the fewest celibates (12%, less than half the other countries).
4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?
If he/she’s slept with more than 10 partners previously: Men 43%, Women 24%
If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%
I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%
If he/she’s slept with more than one other partner previously: Men 10%, Women 32%*
If he/she’s slept with more than 100 partners previously: Men 6%, Women 11%
*This is the other wacked result IMO. Manwhore shamer that I am, even I don’t believe that a third of women are bothered by a guy’s having had 2 previous partners.
5. Who should pay on a date?
Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%
Him: Men 49%, Women 43%
Her: Men 0%, Women 0%
Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.
6. Marriage Potential
About half of men say wife potential is somewhat important, though they won’t break up with a girl if she doesn’t have it. A third consider it essential, and the rest don’t care.
In contrast, only a quarter of women in the female survey report that it is somewhat important. Nearly half say it doesn’t matter at all, approximately the same number that indicated in the previous question that they do not intend to marry.
7. Prenups are not controversial.
35% of men say a woman’s signing one is very important or somewhat important. 42% of women are happy to sign, and another 41% of women would demand the man sign a prenup.
8. Cheating
When asked if they would cheat on a partner if they could get away with it, 73% of men were unlikely to do so, compared to 68% of women.
9. Letting yourself go
54% of men would dump a woman if she got fat. 33% of women would dump a man for adding the kilos.
10. Sexting
More than half of women have sent racy photos of themselves to spark or maintain attraction, while only a third of men have done so. 31% of women would share racy pics with friends, while 83% of men say “they are for my eyes only.”
11. Lying about # of sexual partners
53% of men have lied about the number of partners they’ve slept with.
No corresponding data for women. Why didn’t they ask that??? Is it because they assumed it’s 100%?
12. STD Testing
73% of men and 61% of women have been tested for STDs 0 or 1 times.
13. Cad moves
42% of men have or would be willing to falsely tell a woman they love her just to get her to have sex.
14. You wish.
81% of men never have anal sex.
15. Would you be offended if a woman faked an orgasm with you?
Yes, I would be offended that I wasn’t able to pleasure her. 58%
Yes, I would be offended that she was deceiving me. 25%
No. 17%
34% of men have faked orgasms. The 58% explains why women fake them in the first place. It also explains why they’re dissatisfied with the quality of sex.
16. How often do you fake orgasms?
Never: 33%
Rarely: 26%
Often: 15%
Every time: 26%
Don’t do it ladies, you’ll only paint yourself into a corner it is very difficult to crawl out of.
17. Aging gracefully
About a third of women say men start losing their looks at 30, but 21% say never. 39% of men say a woman starts losing her looks at 40, 17% say never (???) and 6% say 60 (whoo hoo!).
18. Male birth control
American men are more interested in male birth control than any other group – 86% would take it, compared to 73% overall. Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.
{ 701 comments… read them below or add one }
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@Just a thought
We can debate the appropriateness of that, but I stated the same thing earlier in the thread. He didn’t take action. I really don’t believe he intended to. Here are Desi’s remarks on the matter.
It’s been my general practice not to pursue this kind of thing, but I’m not so sure any more that that is right.
…I’m considering pursuing it because my lack of interest in casual sex (and consequent lack of understanding re: how to play the game to get there) has left me at a disadvantage with women I would be interested in pursuing relationships with.
Women get very worried by an attractive man who’s game isn’t tight. The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?
Not a rhetorical question.
Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?
I’ve always assumed it is, but I’m having doubts.
Jackie: “WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?
This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.
I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”
I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.
I haven’t been entirely serious on this thread (certainly not nearing perfection), but I never made that claim, seriously or otherwise. I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime — my endurance is wearing thin.
My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.
That’s the record, and it can speak for itself. I don’t like debating this one bit, and only address it because I am responsible for the content on this blog. I’ll drop it here.
“If he/she’s slept with more than one other partner previously: Men 10%, Women 32%*”
Maybe the women misinterpreted the question and said it would bother them because of the anxiety of being compared. That’s the best I can come up with. Of course, in real life, most of those 32% would lose attraction if the guy had less than 2 prior partners.
And these are self reported?
http://forgifs.com/gallery/v/Hamster-wheel-fail.gif.html
“helping guys become better men.”
so, a bit like the Good Mangina Project then? Bit like a survey on religious values carried out at a religion based Uni? If you survey blue pill guys, should you expect anything except blue pill results? “It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test” – bingo for the boiz too.
Having said that, there are intersting bits
“American men are more interested in male birth control than any other group – 86% would take it, compared to 73% overall.”
Ha! told you men want the option
“Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.”
That is spectacularly missing the point of why men want the option. They don’t trust the women and/or don’t want to roll the 18years+ of chilmoney dice (i.e. does she decide to have it, or not?)
Seems like quite a bit of it shows women as what the manosphere describes to a tee.
“Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.”
If you work out the math, there is a much different story. The results are equally split between the man paying and sharing, with no one reporting that the woman should pay. If both think the man pays, the man pays 100%, if they both think they should share, the man pays 50%. In the case that they disagree, assume that 50% of the time, the man pays, and 50% of the time they share.
If you work that out, over many dates, the man pays 75% of the cost of the dates, and the woman pays 25%. So, yes, the women are getting a good deal.
@Donkey
50,000 male hamsters? I’m surprised to see a guy suggest it.
@Eric Busboom
They may be, but the usual claim that women are gold diggers is clearly disproved, as women are more anxious to contribute than men would like. IOW, women don’t go on dates with men they are not attracted to for the free steak.
“women are more anxious to contribute than men would like”
not 100% sure that you worded that optimally, I get what you meant. I’m sure men would prefer 50-50, speaking of which; I’ve just been having fun on this thread;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9414743/Love-in-the-time-of-austerity.html
which is, I admit, talking about women slightly over PopSuger’s 18-40, but not by much. The Telegraph is more upmarket than the Daily Mail, but the attitudes reek! Enjoy
No, more like a players paradise, with articles like “The Ten Best Racks in Hollywood, Built for Comfort and Speed.”
Sorry, how so? It’s not obvious to me.
“The Ten Best Racks in Hollywood, Built for Comfort and Speed.”
I’ll take a look some time, soumds promising (for research purposes, clearly)
Where does ‘better men’ come in then? I doubt even PUAs call themselves ‘better men’, ‘better’ wouldn’t be seen as relevent (I wouldn’t have thought so, anyway)
No it’s not. Though, I don’t think girls are going out for free food.
“*This is the first wacky number. The 2011 Great Female Survey indicated that 83% of women selected this option. I can’t explain why it would have decreased 47% in one year. Here is a 2011 chart from Pew Research that shows the sexes in line re marriage (U.S. only):”
The explanation for this is one of context. In 2011, there wasn’t as much press for the push for gay marriage as there is now. I bet that when those 2012 women hear the term “preserve the institution of marriage” they interpret that action as “keep it defined as between man/woman only”, rather than the “retain the idea of men and women together in matrimony as a valued cultural institution” definition that probably held that space in their minds last year.
Hence, the massive decline – due to the large, well-cultivated base of gay marriage support among 18-40 women out there.
I hate to rain on this parade, but any self-reporting data related to sex and relationships is going to be almost worthless. Why? because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.
Also, people will provide results based on what they would like sex, dating, and relationships should be, not how things actually are.
A Manosphere dictum is “actions over words”.
These kinds of surveys are basically a bunch of words.
@Ms. Walsh:
“5. Who should pay on a date?
Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%
Him: Men 49%, Women 43%
Her: Men 0%, Women 0%
Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.”
O: Are you sure?
This Young Woman Scored $1,200 A Month In Fancy Dinners Using Match.com
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-29/news/30453560_1_match-com-roommates-japanese-restaurant
All it takes is one…
Besides, the survey doesn’t ask anything about how Men or Women feel about Women truly upending all that oldhat patriarchal stuff and offering to pay for the first date; Kay Hymowitz calls this the “bait and switch” tactic not an insigificant amount of Women do indeed use when it comes to dating and just about anything else when they decide they want things to be more “traditional”:
“That’s the bait; here comes the switch. Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner? After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.
Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.”
Why Are Men So Angry?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/28/why-are-men-angry-manning-up-author-kay-hymowitz-explains.html
O: This is a very important issue, Ms. Walsh – and no matter how much we may want to poo-poo it – it matters. Hugely. To arguably millions of Men, who have and are beginning to vote with their feet – and videogame controllers.
More in a sec…
O.
@Observer
That’s a great insight, very plausible.
I wondered too about the political implications of “how do you define a real woman?” It sounds like an agenda – what should a woman be like, rather than asking the respondent what is most important to them personally.
@Private Man
How do you know this? I know I would answer such a survey in a way that reflected my real attitudes, because I would want my POV to be counted, and influence the total. How could expectations possibly come into play during an anonymous online survey where there is literally no mechanism for accountability or discovery?
Actions over words is always useful, and it’s hardly limited to the manosphere. Women could avoid most cads if they adhered to that dictum.
But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.
I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless.
Finally, what answers do you think reflect expectations rather than truth? What do men feel compelled to lie about in order to fulfill society’s expectations in 2012?
@ Obsidian:
I think women need to relearn the Fine Art Of The Invitation. Men expect to pursue women…but women have forgotten how to communicate that their answer would be “Yes”.
Susan – a fun survey, for sure.
But I too really don’t understand how you get from the “statistics” on who pays for dates to: “Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.” I read your follow-up in the comments above, but it just doesn’t seem to follow.
I put the word “statistics” in scare quotes. There’s an important axiom that always has to be considered. Self-selected surveys are never correct, by definition.
Or, as Gregory House would say, people lie.
Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.
Lol, and we’re supposed to trust women to take it?
@observer, susan
“#Observer
Hence, the massive decline — due to the large, well-cultivated base of gay marriage support among 18-40 women out there.
That’s a great insight, very plausible.”
Sounds plausible at first, but on closer examination doesn’t pass the smell test. Those women would then have to vote for either “Marriage is not for me” or “I don’t believe in marriage”. Those were the three choices. Supporting gay marriage would not make them pick door number 2 or door number 3.
Seems like there’s a sampling error of some sort here.
Obsidian’s links explain one of my biggest problems with dating nowadays.
Let’s put this way: I love my STEM career. I signed up for it when I was young and naive, and now that I’m entrenched in it, I know no other way to live as it is.. but if I were to lose my job for whatever reason, I’d be through with the high-paying, high-effort route because society has shown me again and again that it’s just not respected.
Probably sell all I own and become a professional gambler instead.
“They may be, but the usual claim that women are gold diggers is clearly disproved, as women are more anxious to contribute than men would like. IOW, women don’t go on dates with men they are not attracted to for the free steak.”
I agree Susan. Two men got pretty uncomfortable when I offered to pay in the past. So I thought, “if I pay, will he think I don’t like him?”I was thinking about next date I go on just offering, and if he says no, bringing cash and insisting on paying the tip and desert. The “don’t do anything expensive”advice is golden. Dates by romantic candlelight in an expensive restaurant can get awkward anyway, so much pressure.
@Mike M.
Just as a matter of curiosity tell us about The Fine Art of Invitation.
I am not making any statements about this particular survey, but, I remember reading this really interesting study in college.
These researcher asked a bunch of people how many sexual partners they had had. They promised them that the survey would be completely anonymous.
The people were broken up into 3 groups:
Group 1 answered the survey, anonymously, but a researcher sat in the room, across from them, as they filled in the checks and boxes on the survey and when they were done, handed the survey to the researcher.
Group 2 also answered anonymously, and also had a researcher in the room, but the researcher did not sit anywhere near the person and the person filling in the survey did not hand it to the researcher, but simply slipped it into a slot like a mailbox.
Group 3 had the most anonymous method of all. No researcher in the room with them. No interaction at all. And the researchers would not even see them drop the survey into the box.
For men, Group 1 reported having the most conquests and Group 3 (the most anonymous) reported the fewest, with Group 2 in the middle.
For women, Group 1 reported being the most chaste and Group 3 reported having been banged by the most guys, with Group 2 in the middle.
Another research paper I read had to do with how questions were worded. This one had to do with School Choice (i.e. Charter Schools, Vouchers, Tuition Tax Credits, etc.) and it was fascinating to see how slight changes in words and phrasing would really affect the results.
“Group 3 reported having been banged by the most guys, with Group 2 in the middle.”
I probably could have phrased that better.
I think the limited value of the self-reported data here can be seen on the very first question.
It’s pretty obvious that men were choosing to give the boy scout manual answer.
@Joe
It’s been common for some of the men here to claim that by and large, women go on dates with men they do not find attractive for the free meal. Some of those men have gone so far as to claim sex is the appropriate payment for said meal.
In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.
The statistics disprove the “gold digger” generalization.
But why would they? Why lie? There’s no one to give them brownie points. Why would men in their 20s taking a survey online be anything but truthful?
Also, with 80% of men wanting to marry, it doesn’t seem so surprising that half would value family, does it?
Why do so many anonymous men white knight on Reddit?
I am not saying this survey was bullshit, but, there are definitely examples of anonymous men white knighting.
But on reddit they get karma points if the “group” likes what they say. In an anonymous survey there are no points.
Susan, I think I understand what you’re seeing.
But I also think I see why it didn’t seem to parse correctly. (Literally! The first time I read it, my reaction was that the two halves of the sentence didn’t fit together – very strange!)
What I was looking at (and what I thing the others who commented on it saw too) was this:
Approximately half thought that men should always pay, and no one thought that women should always pay. The idea that this was about meals in return for sex (or about gold-digging) didn’t really show up in this line of thought. What did was a thought about basic fairness.
The survey shows that slightly more than half of everybody thinks that men and women should share equally in the cost of dating, and that’s fine. But the other half? Apparently a large number of them think the burden falls solely on the male. I suspect that is what I and others were seeing.
But on reddit they get karma points if the “group” likes what they say. In an anonymous survey there are no points.
Fair point.
Regardless of what the results are, I think the questions and answers are very poorly worded. I feel like undergrad interns from my school could’ve written a better survey.
I hate to rain on this parade, but any self-reporting data related to sex and relationships is going to be almost worthless. Why? because even with an anonymous survey, people give information that they are expected to give, regardless of the actual truth.
…….
These kinds of surveys are basically a bunch of words.
Yup. I couldn’t say it any better than this:
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/dont-pay-attention-to-psych-surveys-that-amount-to-self-fortune-telling/
Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore.
This is too funny!
Badger definitely nailed my viewpoint… the hypothetical nature of a lot of the survey questions is what keeps me skeptical.
I agree with The Private Man, MikeC and Jimmy Hendricks. For several reasons surveys of this type concerning sex and relationships should be taken with a grain of salt. This does not apply to all polling. Political polls, for example, are reasonably accurate.
Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric
That is, the anti-cock-count-consideration advocate
“Surveys are great until they say stuff we don’t like, in which case they’re not anymore”
Could not agree more, Mireille.
“But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.
I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless. ”
Mireille nails it Susan.
Logic tells you that there is no benefit in lying in these anonymous surveys.
Pointless!
In the end people believe what they want to believe.
Perhaps to reinforce their own steadfast beliefs?
Reminds me of the “All women want a sexually experienced man” BS meme.. Nothing a woman can say or do will convince some men otherwise.
It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man, because, just like the PUA’s that’s all that they are after… Sex.. But for different reasons..
The men want the sex because it feels good.. The sluts want it for personal affirmation. He wants ME!!!!!
This is why it is so important for young women to realize that giving it up just to reinforce ones attractiveness and appeal (to men) is a lost cause.
“It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man”
Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior although even those men tend to switch to non sluts when seeking a life partner
“giving it up just to reinforce ones attractiveness and appeal (to men) is a lost cause”
Ironically, it actually reduces her long term appeal [to men]
There can be no positive long term romantic outcome for nearly all women who have sex with multiple men unless the current desperate campaign to get men to change their universal view of such women succeeds.
@ Ion:
I’ve had similar experiences!
Anytime I offered to pay, the men were both confused and offended. They always said no and covered the cost.
One time I insisted on paying for my own movie ticket and popcorn on a second date because I was the one who suggested that we go. But it just made things awkward between us. I can’t even say this is an American phenomenon because he was French! (And another guy who insisted on paying was also European).
I finally decided that in the early dating phase I wouldn’t offer to pay. It was uncomfortable at first but things went a lot smoother. My theory is, on the first few dates the guy is trying to impress you – so let him! The guys I dated took pride in covering the bill. We weren’t going to swanky $200 restaurants either. Movies, walks in the park, coffee, dinner (maybe $70 at most! But usually a lot less, say $40).
Now with my bf there’s a lot more flexibility. Often we each pay our own way, or he covers the bill and I cover the tip. He still pays in full for things from time to time, and occasionally I pay in full for small stuff.
“Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior ”
Good point Abbot.
Mireille, Kathy, just so you understand, Susan herself says that she does not believe this survey, or, at least part of it.
To quote:
So, when you shoot your shotgun,
Just make sure you know where you are aiming it.
I was quoting Susan here.
“But I don’t see how a survey measuring attitudes is bunk. Public interest surveys are often instrumental in changing legislation, and predicting things like consumer spending or real estate activity. Presidential polls are almost always accurate in predicting a winner as the election gets close.
I’m genuinely baffled by people’s willingness, or even insistence! on dismissing all surveys, polls and even votes as meaningless. ”
Sorry, for the confusion Ramble. I did not make that clear..
@Joe
I would have been very surprised if anyone had suggested that women pay for dates. On what basis? There is enormous precedent, social, cultural and biological, for men in the provider role. Frankly, I was pleased to see two things:
1. 57% of women are happy to pay their own way.
2. Half of men still harbor a provider instinct.
It’s my fault for referring to a recent convo here about all women being gold diggers and taking advantage of men by demanding expensive dates without putting out sexually after dinner. I can see why it seems like a non sequitur.
I’m actually not very surprised by the poll results. To me it pretty much just tells me that most men are still fully plugged into the Matrix. In particular when it comes to marriage, but I think most of the results are pretty indicative of men still operating under the blue pill set of rules.
Now the women’s results are a bit more interesting to me. it seems women are by and large fully embracing their new freedoms and empowerment, while men are for the most part willingly taking a back seat.
But, as others have said, I don’t put a lot of faith in these polls.
I agree, and furthermore I think the choices were too limited, or off somehow. I’ve already seen some blog posts complaining about the design of the survey. For example, it makes no sense to ask women whether they would trust male birth control. It would only be on the market if it were effective, so trust has nothing to do with it. Did they mean to ask if women would trust men to take it? That’s an entirely different question.
@Mireille
I confess I’ve been chuckling over this myself. I’m supposed to take an anonymous online anecdote as fact but dismiss a survey with a sample size of over 50,000. Or believe that all those men were white knighting – WTF – AskMen is basically a site for douchebags!
Meanwhile, before I put my analysis up with the wacky female responses, Obsidian and others here were triumphant in their claims that the survey proves women are looking for players rather than husbands. Now the silence is deafening.
@ Iggles: “I can’t even say this is an American phenomenon because he was French! (And another guy who insisted on paying was also European).”
Lol its American men too! These guys just didn’t understand why I was willing to pay. I also got the “your money’s no good here” and a smile from a hot teacher (literally, the science teacher you have a crush on in high school). I admit it, I was tingly…so what…lol.
“My theory is, on the first few dates the guy is trying to impress you – so let him! ”
Precisely! Especially in a day in age where there’s no other way to indicate interest. Look at NYC for example, here guys don’t walk you to your door (you both take the train home), they don’t pick you up in their car (you both take the train), usually, you both walked around the city all day so you’re not as formal as you would’ve liked to be. I think for some guys if he doesn’t pay there’s no real way to know its a date.
Susan – “Or believe that all those men were white knighting – WTF – AskMen is basically a site for douchebags!”
From your lips, err fingers to God’s ears.
I put AskMen right up there with the Good Mangina Project. Sorry Obsidian, but in my opinion they have a long way to go before they make up for Hugo.
Skeptical is good. Dismissive is not. Not saying you’re guilty of that, but there’s a very clear pattern here of knee jerk rejection of anything that suggests:
1. Men want to marry and have children.
2. Women vary in their tendency toward short-term mating.
3. Men vary in the tendency toward short-term mating.
4. Women are capable of finding dominant slackers unattractive.
It’s not as if I’m cherry picking studies. I cover virtually every study that is published. The fact that most of the recent research – which comes out of the very same discipline Game does – is very much in agreement, across study designs, sample sizes, and location, paints a very clear picture.
Saying all the research is invalid is silly, as it suggests that it’s not worth asking people what they think or what choices they’ve already made. Research is never perfect, but refusing the ask the questions strikes me as an indication of fear. Ignorance is bliss, etc.
@Thras
Grain of salt or dismissed entirely? I’m curious to know why you believe the survey is inaccurate. I have shared some of my own reservations re the sample, but I wonder what else you’re seeing.
@Ramble
To clarify, the female survey in particular seems off. I wouldn’t present it to a client. I am suspicious of the male survey simply by virtue of association.
Having said that, the sample size is ridiculously large for the men, the data is broken out by country, and the responses are very interesting. I wouldn’t take any of this to the bank, but I think it’s worth discussing as opposed to dismissing out of hand.
Readers don’t agree tho, obvs, as this thread has generated few comments.
The most interesting “facts”
“At what point does the number of former sex partners start to bother you?”
If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%
I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%
______________
So 41% of men think that 20 partners is ok for women to have had sex with………..
I am not alone……lol
Tom – “So 41% of men think that 20 partners is ok for women to have had sex with………..
I am not alone……lol”
I don’t think anyone here has said you were alone. I would wager though that the vast majority of men that are in that 41% are young, and they’ve pretty much accepted the fact that they are NOT going to find a low N woman to marry. Despite your apparent happiness at finding your “peeps” there, I still don’t see it as a positive outcome.
Which is precisely one of my biggest complaints: that by the time my boys are old enough to marry, there won’t be many low N women to choose from. They will have to settle for one closer to a reformed carousel rider or simply not marry at all. I personally don’t like either of those outcomes, but unless they convert to some strict version of Christianity or other religion, they just aren’t going to find anything close to chaste, and maybe not even much in terms of sexually selective women.
Abbot, he was right on cue!
“In my view, the fact that more women than men believe women should pay half suggests that women are not in it for the free food, but view a date as a mutual investment of time and resources for two people who wish to know one another better.
The statistics disprove the “gold digger” generalization.”
It does no such thing. As long as 50% of women believe the man should pay everything that is more than enough women to go on frivolous dates. The numbers only “proves” something about one HALF of the women. Furthermore, it is pretty obvious that the attitudes to paying will vary according to SMV so that more attractive women more often believe the man should pay everything. These women go on way more dates than the women who believe both should pay. Consequently men will be far more likely to go on dates with women who have the attitude that men should pay everything. Also, critically important is that the women who go on dates that aren`t all that serious in large part to be taken out will of course accept more offers for dates so mens experience will be highly impacted by this so that the percentage of frivolous dates are higher than the percentage of women who frivolously date.
Tom, 57:
This logic seems flawed, the question is:
Therefore, the correct percentage is:
100 – (10+43+21) = 26%
Not significantly lower, but still reduced to about a quarter.
I forget what it’s called, confirmation bias or whatever, but we all do it. So I find it amusing that folks are enjoying a laff at others. So when one survey sez (channeling Richard Dawson) that a lot of women are ‘X’ and then all the ladies announce NAWALT. Another survey comes out and announces that a lot of women are not ‘X’ and moreover a lot of guys are ‘Y’, all of the men announce that it’s a bad survey. Bottom line we all have confirmation bias even if we aren’t willing to admit it to ourselves. I certainly do ( I got a TON of it), it’s why I do not even bother with these (I opened the article to read the comments, the blog post was TLDR). So to everyone, please keep on keeping on.
As witnessed, most men disagree, I join them. The statement was never that all women are gold diggers, but that a significant portion of them are relative to some generations ago (i.e. their share is growing). I may still be wrong about this, but the numbers are not encouraging.
Susan @ 56
So, basically, you think that the survey is interesting, but not valid. Right? Or, that it is not that helpful because of how things are worded. Right?
As far as I can tell, your reaction to this survey is not significantly different than how some of the guys are reacting to it.
However, the guys will keep looking for information that supports the idea that girls are a lot sluttier than they used to be and you will keep looking for professional surveys.
Yes, your bias is the better one, but your reaction is not much different.
As to why few are responding, the previous thread is sucking all the air out.
“Meanwhile, before I put my analysis up with the wacky female responses, Obsidian and others here were triumphant in their claims that the survey proves women are looking for players rather than husbands. Now the silence is deafening.”
When I found several studies showing more attractive women having higher sociosexuality than less attractive women and that they started having sex earlier and with more partners, directly contradicting what is said here constantly about higher SMV women not wanting casual, the silence was defining. No one responded to it at all.
“As witnessed, most men disagree, I join them. The statement was never that all women are gold diggers, but that a significant portion of them are relative to some generations ago (i.e. their share is growing). I may still be wrong about this, but the numbers are not encouraging.”
Doesn’t the number of women willing to stay in a relationship with a man she DOES NOT intend to marry play into the “gold digger” mentality? I mean, so she KNOWS she doesn’t want to marry him, but she is OK with staying with him for awhile letting him spend time and money on her, for what? In exchange for access to her vagina?
Doesn’t anyone else see this as part of the “gold digger” mentality? I certainly do!
On the subject of confirmation bias. I’m not sure why people are discrediting the men here of indicating that the study is flawed. If I were to be an MRA, and a neurotic one trying to cherry pick studies, I’d be somewhat pleased by this study.
This in itself makes a lousy argument for the validity, but we are talking about AskMen, a site more suitable for players than betas. I feel like choir boys filled out the forms here.
Lets see, this was written at about 6am per comment 39 above:
“Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric”
and whadeeya know, a mere four hours later that very spew appears per comment 57 above:
“I am not alone……lol”
So predictable. So pathetic
.
Ted D, 66
I’m in the choir you are preaching to, Ted.
FeralEmployee – “This in itself makes a lousy argument for the validity, but we are talking about AskMen, a site more suitable for players than betas. ”
I don’t know for sure about this. Dr. Love may be a PUA type guy, but I’ve seen SO much blue pill crap on AskMen that I truly have stopped reading there. I will say that at least they seem to mix it up a little, but look through the archive for ‘sex and dating’ articles and you’ll see tons of blue pill claptrap to waste your time on.
I’m honestly not sure what AskMen is good for, unless you are into fitness or expensive watches.
Ted not sure the men were young. older men especially if they are divorced see things a little differently. younger men have ego`s less life experience and probably more recent experience with slutty behavior.
“he was right on cue!”
Uncanny indeed.
“they’ve pretty much accepted the fact that they are NOT going to find a low N woman to marry.”
Despite that NOT being what he wants at all and that does not bode well for him or her. Men who drag their asses into UNIVERSALLY UNNATURAL “bonds” with promiscuous women are essentially entering into wincing mechanical marriages. Its is absolutely in a woman’s best interest to avoid such a scenario.
They will have to settle for one closer to a reformed carousel rider
A very very big S E T T L E
“unless they convert to some strict version of Christianity or other religion, they just aren’t going to find anything close to chaste, and maybe not even much in terms of sexually selective women.”
Or merely travel to where the super majority of Earth’s gracious women dwell aka sticking a knife in the back of the hookup cesspool and the occasional anti-cock-count-consideration advocate who strategically shows up here…
.
In quality perhaps, but they’re polar opposites in terms of audience.
Ted D, 70
I suppose that explains the choirboy results. I’ve read AskMangina’s some period before I discovered HUS, but hadn’t visited if after the red pill was swallowed. Luckily the red pill went down somewhat less troublesome in comparison to other men.
Observant behavior as an INTJ truly is a bliss.
Why the certainty? Because of the odd article with the 99 most … women? A glance at the website will not grant you immediate insight.
“recent experience with slutty behavior”
That very experience is precisely what moves them away from sluts when they are done with them or witnessing them all gooshy with cockfulls of expression embracing and exploring. You see how nicely it works out for everyone?
“It’s the sluts that want a sexually experienced man”
Well, the honest ones do and its to minimize being called on for past behavior although…………………………………………………………………………………. even those men tend to switch to non sluts when seeking a life partner
____________
Go on thinking that..You are wrong. Almost half of men are not “bothered” by a number as large as 20.. Or do you know better than a survey of 50,000 men?…Talk about pathetic, your incorrect caveman theory has been shot down.
feral
If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%
I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%
21 % think 20 is ok…..21 % dont care what the number is, so a number of 20 is ok with them too…20 + 21= 41%
Tom, 78
Note that the cumulative sum of all percentages is 100%. There is no way that 21% can be included in your 41% statistic: they are already bothered.
feral
No they are not
21% think it is ok to have no more than 20
20% could care less what her number is, so 20 is ok with them too.
“men are not “bothered”
AKA men self-convince or ………..S E T T L E………….due to lack of supremely appropriate readily available choices. So promiscuous lades: do you like being settled for? Is that a solid basis for marriage? hmmmm?
A person having a tooth pulled is gassed into an alter-reality state in order to not be “bothered” by the procedure. Extend the self-duping gas out a few years and your slut gets the ring and maybe a house. Ohhh, but the slowing growing regret and gnawing pain…..
100%-43% that 10 partners bother-
57% -10% cant handle even one other partner
47% – 6% bother by 100 or more
Whats left..Humm 41% ?
“There is no way that 21% can be included in your 41% statistic: they are already bothered.”
Oh, just give the “advocate” the extra suckers, er men. The sluts are already desperate enough given their severely diminished options and they need to grab onto anything to feel better
Abbott
enough of your opinion. I will rely on the survey that disputes your opinion
due to lack of supremely appropriate readily available choices.
In YOUR opinion Abbott, in YOUR opinion. Almost half of all men disagree with you.
“Whats left..Humm 41% ?”
hmmmm hmmmmm na na nuh na na
How about 94% huh? Would that make your day knowing that the female lurkers here can go home now knowing that a bunch of sacks will be there for them with catchers mitts on as they hop off the last easy to get slimy cocks? All embraced in cozy blankets of expression; all the more ready to be wives incomparable to even their loser grandmothers? All with better vaginas that the poor guy’s kids are going to slide from?
Sheeeesh. Give it a break already. Constantly filling the very pot holed road does not make for an attractive new road. No matter what.
Oh, just give the “advocate” the extra suckers, er men\
Actually the number is 47% because 6% of men dont care if women have a number of 100.
Whos the sucker?….lmao
You see, like I have been saying all along. A LOT of men judge a woman on the total package, not just a sexual number. Almost half of men could care less if a woman has a number @ 20.
If that doesnt work for you, fine, no sweat of my ass, but your insults are really getting old.
“I will rely on the survey ”
Sadly, sluts know the reality, not surveys and especially none they can rely on including and especially this one. If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.
knowing that a bunch of sacks will be there for them with catchers mitts on as they hop off the last easy to get slimy cocks
Oh I see NOW cocks are slimey?..Is that your impression mr cave man? sex is dirty, and it tarnishes a woman who has it… talk about 19th centery thinking.
If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.
__________________
Half of men appearently have no, so called,” angst” for mistakenly referred to…lol
Later my friend, see your primitive thinking ass in another week or so.
If it was all so rosy there would not be such tremendous angst out there regarding this “issue” that is theirs and theirs alone.
__________________
Half of men appearently have no, so called,” angst”you mistakenly referred to…lol
Later my friend, see your primitive thinking ass in another week or so.
Tom, 80
If you still include 20, then it’s
100 – (10+43) = 47%
You’ve lost the first two groups, not the rest. Though you are flirting with the boundary here. It’s safer to work with thresholds instead of specific numbers. You see, you forgot the additional 6% of the N=100 group.
“men could care less if a woman has a number @ 20″
All else being close enough to equal, if it came down to the non slut, all men would take that choice but cannot when trapped in a geographic area where that choice has been diminished by family breakdown, overall bad parenting and cheap easy accessible cock joy riding.
++++But heck, if you get the desired result of the slut-to-marriage program, does it really matter how or why it was accomplished??????????
“men appearently have no, so called,” angst””
No, its the women who do. Men need not be concerned at all as they know they can always bail
Yep, this was written just six hours ago:
“Just a matter of time before a desperate anti-partner-count advocate shows up here spewing that good ol worn out ineffective bloated rhetoric”
Humor anyone?
Interestingly, women are told they have choices and then complain that those choices are not really choices because they are offered in a narrow band. They are right. The same applies to men. If a man “chooses” to marry a slut, is he making that choice as a naive member of a captive audience given the narrow range presented to him that does not include all actual choices that would best suit his nature?
Fear not, I have saved all those links for my post on sociosexual orientation. Your timing was unfortunate in the sense that I was going on vacation right then, and that is a very time consuming post to write.
Tom – “Ted not sure the men were young. older men especially if they are divorced see things a little differently. younger men have ego`s less life experience and probably more recent experience with slutty behavior.”
OK how about this. Older and younger men realize they have no choice. I’d love to have a partner with a lower count, but to be honest, I’m pretty thrilled I found a woman with a N<10 at my age. I would MUCH prefer her N had been 3 or maybe 4 tops, but there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, so I sucked it up and moved on.
And from what I can tell of the young men around my boys age, (from 13 to 17 years old) they are pretty much programmed to not even question a woman's N. Because after all, even asking is judgmental, and Lord forbid we make a woman feel bad for exercising her female power.
How many of the men answering this survey do you think feel the same way? 10%? 20%? Whatever it doesn't matter, my point still stands. Just because more men are OK with ending up with a former slut DOES NOT make it morally OK. All it shows is the continuing decline of our morality in the West.
But I hope you enjoy being right about it. Someone should be happy that we are going to hell in a hand basket, and it sure as hell isn't me.
Ted D, 96
This sentiment is shared. The only reason I’m not too worried is thanks to my choice of education and limited social network. The benefit of not asking help often is that you don’t have to lend much yourself. While Western civilization drowns, I will be moving away.
On another note, it is interesting that the numbers do seem to confirm SW’s statement that for every male slut, there is a female one. There is however, some interesting dynamic going on at the lower N levels.
FeralEmployee – “There is however, some interesting dynamic going on at the lower N levels.”
Sure, that as much as it may be denied here, there are plenty of low N women that take a turn or two at an alpha/ONS/Cad/Jerk and then do their best to simply forget about the whole thing after it crashes and burns. I’m positive that Susan’s 20% holds up for both men and women IF you are simply looking at who are the career sluts. However, what isn’t properly counted is, how many amateur sluts are there in the world? And by that I mean, how many women (and men to be fair) that for all the world look to be sexually selective and relatively chaste, have in fact indulged in the lowest forms of sexual release? We’ll probably never know, because my guess is most women (and perhaps some men) often lie about it, or like I said, simply “forget” the entire thing happened.
I could care less about the career sluts in the world. I wouldn’t even consider them as a friend in most cases, let alone a mate. But, I’d certainly like to know who took only a turn or two on the casual carousel, and specifically I’d like to know exactly how that turned out for her, before I consider her mate potential.
“men realize they have no choice”
and the Advocate obviously likes it that way
“I sucked it up ”
A far cry from not being “bothered”
“they are pretty much programmed to not even question a woman’s N”
Anything not natural has to be programmed. But WHY everything else is fair to question EXCEPT the N? That has NEVER been clearly explained.
“Just because more men are OK with ending up with a former slut DOES NOT make it morally OK. ”
Or especially UNIVERSALLY natural, because it is NOT.
It is an awful feeling that sinks way down. How long before the numbing [er...not "bothered"] wears off? How is it good in any way that a woman has in her clutches a man who deep down rather dedicate himself to the worthy demure loverly doe-eyed woman his grandfather had the extreme supreme benefit of marrying?
“I’d like to know exactly how that turned out for her, before I consider her mate potential”
That is the whole angst thing among WOMEN right now. They dont want men to even CONSIDER that when evaluation the package. They really really do not. There is no denying their angst over this.
Regarding question #4, I’m not even sure if it’s about possible wife material, contrary to Tom’s triumphant assertions of wanting low-N women being evidence of “caveman thinking” when in fact most Red Pill thinking is “caveman.”
As for his quip about someone having 19th century thinking? Guess what — numerology is bullcrap.
“even asking is judgmental…How many of the men answering this survey do you think feel the same way?”
Um, at least 47%? The rest are independent thinkers immune to the propaganda and rhetoric …
Ok, so much for this so-called “survey” question.
“wanting low-N women being evidence of “caveman thinking”
How does caveman action and living [vs cave-in] in any way whatsoever negatively affect women?
THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED MANY TIMES BUT NEVER ANSWERED. Because, quite frankly, the Advocate, feminists and sluts fear looking like grovelers to men and are protecting their pride and egos. Thus, they would rather fling tired old ineffective shame bombs like insecure, caveman, archaic, weak blah blah blah. How is that working out?
Well, since they refuse to answer, here is how it affects women: It creates a HUGE MAN SHORTAGE and no woman likes to admit there are not enough men to go around as it diminishes her power and control over men. Oh, this shit is soooo transparent.
I think this is accurate. I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut. Nor do I believe she necessarily had the ONS with the most dominant guy. Again, the numbers just aren’t there. The only way to refute my conclusion is to say the data is worthless. That’s fine if you can produce better data.
At the risk of being a killjoy here, isn’t it pretty difficult to draw any substantial conclusions from the data? On one hand, AskMen is a male self-improvement site. On the other hand, Pop Sugar is a site for “women?” to follow celebrity couple break ups. Comparing the male/ female surveys is like comparing apples to oranges. It’s like comparing the readers of people magazine to the readers of the economist. It’s kind of hard to learn anything from that.
“It’s kind of hard to learn anything from that.”
Of course. But any data that remotely suggests that men see sluts as wife material like they see any other woman must have an odor because it immediately attracts those who are desperate to prove that very point.
Susan – ” I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut.”
Nor do I. But that doesn’t mean I am unconcerned with any previous rides on the carousel she took, even if it was one. In fact, I would say that at least with the hardcore sluts you know where you stand. And I’d certainly like to know how that ONS ended, and how she felt about it afterwards. And it is these women that are more likely to hide their few dalliances, not the career sluts.
“4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?”
Apologies if I’m missing something by not visiting that site (not interested in either site), BUT there seems to be a gaping hole in the logic being used to parse the results of no.4 from what I see here (Tom in particular is jumping the gun)
How big an N would worry you for:
a) ONS on a business trip in another country?
b) STR whilst away from home for a few months?
c) P&D from the local bar whilst drunk with mates?
d) STR?
e) LTR?
f) marriage?
This is without getting into relative SMV / MMV. Money etc
So what results are we being given? ‘cos I’d have a different attitude dependant on what the deal on offer was and where it was…
Marriage with a woman with an high N – NO, not even in my blue pill daze
ONS with a woman with a high N – Yeah (possibly) just protect yourself.
This is one of the reasons that these surveys are next to worthless. Imprecise questions, random situation of responders (sober / drunk / alone / friends / party / dry patch / in relationship).
sorry about the keyboard bounce on the paste. it’s a high N keyboard
“Tom in particular is jumping the gun”
Predicted at 6am, just 4 hours before he gun was jumped.
“Marriage with a woman with an high N – NO, not even in my blue pill daze
ONS with a woman with a high N – Yeah (possibly) just protect yourself.”
That is the universal male attitude, practice and take on it all. Men are good with that. Women are good with that. Eventually, with varying degrees of effort, nearly all get what they want or close enough to what they wanted. Why a few folks get all bent out of shape over it has never been explained, but alas, here we are.
I’m firmly in the skeptic camp on this one. Yes, I’ve probably got confirmation bias, but the questions and the answers ‘feel’ off for the men’s survey.
It’s one thing to know your girl is a slut when you have no emotional investment, it’s quite another when you are actually, ya know, starting to get attached.
Step 1. I don’t care, I am getting to know this girl.
Step 2. Awwww shit, slut filter. I don’t want to date a slut.
Step 3. She’s proven herself, got past the filter. I don’t like that’s she sucked off 100 guys, but she’s good enough that I’ll take her.
“she’s good enough that I’ll take her”
Is this settling good for women? Good for anyone? The most sad part is her behavior set up bonding resistance from men but as women say these days “you cant have it all” so, oh well. Women will learn and they will adjust their behavior accordingly. NO MATTER WHAT, slut behavior will affect your future and hint – it brings NOTHING positive to a relationship and the best a girl can hope for is a neutral attitude from the guy, but he is just suppressing.
I think it CAN be good settling. But it makes the whole effort a lot harder, and for what? A few romps in the hay when you were younger?
Not worth the risk.
Sue: “I know I would answer such a survey in a way that reflected my real attitudes, because I would want my POV to be counted, and influence the total.”
I lie on political surveys all the time. Last organization to call me thinks I was a pro-abortion, anti-gun, evangelical Christian, anti death penalty, anti-war, pro-marijuana Santorum supporter.
On sex surveys? Well, that one time that I grabbed her boob, that is second base, so that counts as sex… Well, that one time I blew him in the alley, that doesn’t count as sex… Etc.
That said, I’m sure there is significant error in these, but they are not totally bunk.
“there is significant error in these”
Not being “in the moment” upon learning that the almost eye-of-your-affection was just another unwifeable drifting cock hopper provides no sense of that very sick feeling at the time when responding to a survey question regarding being “disturbed” by such a scenario
In terms of lying…
What if the question was “Do you ever feel sexual attraction to 16-17 year olds of the opposite sex?”
Despite it being anonymous, I’m betting an overwhelming percentage of guys would answer no because they’ve been programmed their whole lives to believe that answering yes would make them disgusting human beings.
I know in my blue pill days I would’ve lied and voted no, since it was the socially acceptable answer. And I would’ve somehow believed my own lie. Guys can have hamsters too.
I’m going to make a couple of points here that will probably be discounted, but at least I’ll have said my piece.
1. Women may control the sex market, but men control the marriage market. It frustrates me how men on this site rail against women as if they have no recompense against “sluts”, but guys do have powerful tolls in their box, they just do not use them.
a. Tool #1: Don’t marry sluts. Instead of marrying the girl because she’s attractive even though she slept with over 30 guys, don’t marry her. If guys decided not to marry girls with high sex numbers, in large droves, you would see more women abstaining from sex and more women becoming choosier about those ONS, because most women do want to get married. If you want more chaste women, don’t marry sluts.
b. Tool# 2 Don’t reward slutty, gold-digging behavior. I’m a 19 year old, girl in college and I constantly see the really attractive girls get away with , “using guys, then dumping them when I get them” ( as one roommate told me) and they still get perks, like free drinks in bars, and positive attention from guys. Then guys will constantly complain that girls use them. But it’s hard for me to feel any sympathy when guys create this situation. Out of all the girls on campus, 60% of men go after the top 10% of girls. Those girls will be more likely to use you, reject you and treat you badly because they can and because their is often nothing that differentiates you from all the guys who want to date them. As a woman, I cannot change the before of the top 10 percent of women. It’s not my fault that they expect drinks from a man in a bar, or that the really attractive girl you dated dumped you because she thought she could do better. It is your fault because you are making bad dating choices.
3. Religion and sex. Many men bemoan the fact that there are few virgins to marry nowadays. But I challenge men to try to imagine what it is like to be a woman. I am 19, I am a virgin, but I don’t plan to what till even 25 to have sex. Why? Because sex is awesome, from my personal explorations, I’ve found that I enjoy it and I do have a sex drive. Women in the 1930s and 40s got married at 18 and 19. Today, obviously, most people do not do that. As a woman, am I supposed to wait until my “mystery guy on a white horse comes riding over the rainbow at some undisclosed time in the future comes to marry me” and then have sex? No. From 16-24, we girls are horny, we like sex and we want to have it. There is no reason to delay having sex, unless religion comes into play. In fact, religion is partly behind the reason why I’m a virgin right now. Religion entails sacrifice and self-control. It’s no surprise that being religious causes a girl to suppress her baser sex urges…. but not for long and definitively not forever.
Finally, I have to point out the last reality of this situation. As men argue, women’s sexual beauty peaks around 16-29. But women are at their most stupid in that time-period. As a 19 year old, I will willingly say I am stupid and will probably act more intelligently when I am 30. In their youth, women, like men, do not want to settle down, we prize fun, novelty and amusement…. which is why many 24 year olds ride the “Cock Carousel”. This is why women will pick the tall, brooding and mysterious stranger over the bland nice guy every time.It takes a very wise woman to reason out that the nice guys is the better bet. But at 20, honestly women think with their pussy and not with their brains. This is not something society can easily change.
Well, I’ve said everything I want to. If you want go buy a drink for that beautiful girl. But remember, that girl is probably not a prostitute. $20 dollar wine won’t win you her affection or convince her to have sex with you. For that, you better excite her in a way most men approaching her haven’t, and if you are a nice guy, seek a girl who think with her brain and not her pussy. These are fundamental truths.
To rephrase the N results, 20% of men responded that 20N “begins to bother”, 20% had no number which “began to bother”. 60% “began to bother” at or below 10N. This feels about right. In my circles, there’s not much loud slut shaming, overt misogynist statements are a comedic novelty, and most men don’t see themselves as starkly separate from women. Blame the pthalates.
The marriage question regarded the “institute of marriage”, the idea, its preservation, faith in, upholding. A solipsistic, marriage-as-pony question – “do you want to be married and have a happy marriage?” – may have returned a different answer. Again, probably a true reporting. Very few people are circling wagons around old patria and its dear customs. “L’etat, c’est moi”.
My issue with surveys personally is, because people are group-joiners, there can be a justifying quality in the figures. The oldest excuse is “but everybody else is doing it…”, and a question I used to ask people – you’re in a group of 100 people, everybody else sees a green wall, but you see a yellow one. There’s only one correct answer; what color is the wall, really?
Surveys are projects that care what other people think, is the plus and the minus.
Btw, I’m sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I’m tired. It’s late at night.
This is off-topic, but I’m so jealous of people who can access HUS at work.
My company’s webblocker won’t let me look at it because it’s classified as “Adult/Explicit”.
I did one of these types of surveys when I was 16 at school (for the Victorian Health Department) when the AIDS crisis was prevalent and studies on sexual behaviour was being conducted.
I lied by a factor of 5 on almost every question, despite the anonymity the fear of one of my peers finding out about my lack of experience was enough to make me lie. Yeh, so I take these surveys with a grain of salt.
@Just a Thought
I’m going to try, and fail, to phrase this in a way that doesn’t make me sound like a Lifetime Channel villain. I’ll say that I don’t bemoan that there are young women with an exploratory mindset, I’ve had my own explorations with them. Also, I don’t sort women into the low-investment pile out of punishment or personal spite. It’s more a simple decrease of investment as the N goes up the number line.
Looking through my window, for the same woman, gut-level response:
With zero-N, she’d be approached for marriage only, patient exploration, not going to be her first unless there are rings involved. One or two N, laidback, no need for patience anymore, but not avoiding the altar either. Three to four, staying in the present, not particularly considering marriage; might have mixed feelings at the altar, if accident or fate brought me there. Five to six N, hookups, semi-regrettable lapses in concentration, no longterm relationship. Higher, avoided, hopefully with some decorum.
For me, the Madonna/Whore dichotomy doesn’t ring as true as a three-folder Wife/Concubine(girlfriend)/Prostitute(hookup) cabinet, if you take the sting off of the words and keep in mind that men can really enjoy the company of any of the three. Your view, I think, is a good representation of what a woman wants, and would use power to bring about. In the past, and where men had the upper hand, they’ve tended to express their view in favor of restrictive low-N marriages, not only for their own brides, but also for their sisters and daughters.
As per the survey, I’m an outlier. That said, I exist, and I’m not lying. An old-timer from the country was asked about marriage, said all he looked for in college was a pretty virgin to marry. Got one, got a job, and that was that. Seemed about right.
@Just a thought
you appear to be owning your shit – cool stuff at whatever age and either sex.
I’ve heard it expressed (somewhere, sometime) that humans don’t truly mentally mature until their late twenties. When you add in the hormone haze of youth…there’s a lot of poor thinking around, but you knew that.
Best of luck
#118 -Just a thought
That’s not an insult.
Haha, you think kind of like me.
(I think I see things differently because I am a shy geeky girl who’s never kissed any of the hoods who populate my area. Sometimes I consider moving to Germany or Switzerland.)
#58 -Ted D
Tell your sons to consider visiting Latin America, Southeast Asia or Eastern Europe. I’ve met some good, sweet non-trampy girls from those places and there are supposed to be tons more.
@Susan
The adage to look at their actions and not their words can still apply when the person is giving what they believe to be an honest/non-lying answer. Why? Self-delusion is one answer. Inexperience is another.
For instance, take someone giving an answer about how they would react in a situation where they were being mugged, (and they’ve never been mugged before). They may be able to rationally think through how the mugger would act and how they may try to catch the mugger off guard and kick him in the balls or something and be a hero but the fact is until you’ve been in that situation first-hand you won’t have any idea what you would or could do. Why? Because in that situation you have a whole bunch of instincts and emotions and hormones kicking into gear and affecting your perception and judgment that most people won’t add into their calculations of what they would do when they are rationally considering their response to a mugging in a place of comfort and safety.
Another example. I remember watching or reading an interview about Steven Pinker about evolutionary psychology and why he got into it. In this interview he regaled a story about how we may rationally agree with the cultural ideals of the day in an abstract sense yet when those ideals are put to the test before us our evolved instincts can take over and make us behave in the opposite to them. Namely he was recounting a story of how in his college days he was all into feminism and would often say to his feminist girlfriend, “Oh yeah, I don’t own your body! That’s so sexist!” Yet whenever his girlfriend flirted with other guys or what not, he would get extremely jealous and his behaviour/emotions told a completely different story to what he had rationally stated before, when the situation that put those statements to the test came before him.
A final example would be Hugo Schywzer. I remember reading an article about how he was once a pacifist and he could never imagine himself harming another person. Yet when he had his first child he changed his opinion on pacifism to one where he could see himself harming/killing those who would try to hurt/kill his infant daughter. That again is an example of people stating what is culturally appropriate at the time, without lying, yet when the actual situation presents itself, their emotions/instincts/hormones kicking and them then taking what would be the opposite stance.
Hence why you should always look at a persons actions and not their words, even when the person believes they aren’t lying. Most people just don’t don’t know they they will actually respond until that situation comes before them and even then they may still delude themselves as to their true feelings/thought/motivations so that they can assuage their ego/belief system.
I should probably indicate that he said he got jealous in a sexually possessive nature and so his evolved instincts/emotions were telling him that he did want to “own her body” even though he had consciously/rationally stated otherwise.
Emily, 121
Set up an SSH connection with an external server (e.g. server at home) and use that to browse sites you can’t do otherwise.
Just a thought – “This is not something society can easily change.”
I never implied it would be easy, but since we came from a much more conservative society, it is obviously doable.
Emily – “This is off-topic, but I’m so jealous of people who can access HUS at work.”
There are SO many ways around that…
• Get a smart phone and access it from there
• Setup a PC at home that listens to incoming remote connections on an unusual port and connect from your work PC to your home PC and then access from home.
• Get an iPad or other tablet (kinda like the first option, but with a much better screen)
Truth is, I spend most of my days sitting in front of my computer, so I pull HUS up and leave it in the background. This is why I tend to post in spurts (LOL couldn’t resist the pun…) because I will pull the page up, refresh, post, and then get back to work. Lately I’ve been working on some client stuff, so I’ve not been able to post as much. But now I’m back at my office, and things should be back to normal, for a few more days. Then I’m off to Vegas for a week, and I won’t be posting much if at all from there. I might not be in any condition to even power up a PC…
Sai – “Tell your sons to consider visiting Latin America, Southeast Asia or Eastern Europe. I’ve met some good, sweet non-trampy girls from those places and there are supposed to be tons more.”
I know. But I find it regrettable that I even have to consider telling them this, when we live in a country full of young women.
Chris – “I should probably indicate that he said he got jealous in a sexually possessive nature and so his evolved instincts/emotions were telling him that he did want to “own her body” even though he had consciously/rationally stated otherwise.”
Easy way to solve this one. I’ve indicated to my SO that I do indeed consider her sexuality MINE for all intent and purpose now that we are committed, and in turn mine belongs to her. If one of us does something that makes the other uncomfortable, we are supposed to bring it up, calmly, and discuss it to a resolution. In fact, from time to time when we are goofing around I’ll give her a light swat to the ass, and she will say “don’t touch my ass!” while grinning at me. In every single case my answer is: “Sorry baby, that ass is mine now”, she giggles and rolls her eyes and we move on. But, she doesn’t argue, debate, or even bristle at the comment, because she knows that in truth that is EXACTLY how I feel about it. She will always be her own person, but when she committed to me, she agreed to give me that part of her being. She is now the steward for me when it comes to her sexuality. Which to me is the double blow of cheating. Not only does it break trust, but in my mind, it is stealing. Because her sexuality doesn’t belong to her to give to some other guy. She already gave it to me.
“If guys decided not to marry girls with high sex numbers, in large droves, you would see more women abstaining from sex ”
If men as a group broadcast that intent you would think then its a good thing. After all, no harm done. But if women abstain from sex outside of marriage that implies they would be marrying younger. If they are marrying younger then the so-called “career” thing becomes less of a focus and that implies dependency on men increases. It is for this exact reason that such a broadcast from men would be met with fiery rage from feminists and probably from many women overall. The sick irony is that the recently discovered ease of fucking men enables women to be independent from men and if certain men do not participate in the fuck fest it must be because they want to use the cock control tower to manipulate female life choices and behaviors
@Susan
And you thought college campuses were bad…
http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/story/_/id/8133052/athletes-spill-details-dirty-secrets-olympic-village-espn-magazine
@Susan
Re: paying for dates, while I agree with you that most women I know aren’t going for a free meal/drinks, there’s another aspect to it that you haven’t mentioned. While many women may say on a survey they’d be willing to split, in my experience, and with almost everyone I know, saying and doing are two very different things.
As every guy is aware, there are two levels of offering to split. One is actually offering to split, where the girl has cash/card out on the table as/before the bill comes down. That’s a real offer. The fake offer, which is actually more common, is “do you want to split this” without any move to bring out cash/card, or maybe a fake rummaging around in the purse for 30 seconds until you decline her offer. So there’s that to begin with.
Secondly, as a guy, splitting/paying have asymmetric outcomes. If you pay, the upside is everything goes smoothly. The downside is that you’re out $50 or something like that. To most of my friends, that’s not a huge downside. However, if you take her up on splitting, the upside is that you save $50. The potential downside though is that she gets offended, and you put subsequent dates/hus in serious jeopardy. That’s a lot bigger downside than being out $50. I, and almost every guy I know, has gotten burned by taking a girl up on an offer to pay only for her to be offended and upset that you didn’t turn her down. Hell, I had a girl, who in a conversation weeks before we ever went on a date talked about how she was totally fine going dutch on a date. Date one, I paid for, and we had a great time. She was all over me at my apartment after. Date two, I actually took her up on her offer to split. She was so pissed off at that that we stopped dating soon after. Most guys I know have had a similar experience. We’ve been classically conditioned to pay every time (until we’re dating the girl), because the downsides and outcomes are so asymmetrical as to make it a stupid risk to not pay.
@Abbot
“cock control tower”. Incredible. I actually laughed out loud at that one.
“the downsides and outcomes are so asymmetrical as to make it a stupid risk to not pay”
Meanwhile the two dudes in Aruba who nailed her during her one week all-inclusive “exploration” back in March are snickering at you. Yep yep, you’re paying alright
“Meanwhile the two dudes in Aruba who nailed her during her one week all-inclusive “exploration” back in March are snickering at you. Yep yep, you’re paying alright”
I will fully admit that this bothered me at first. But to be honest, I really don’t care at all about what any of my SO’s former partners think. And I really don’t think it was ever a large part of my discomfort about any of this, but it was a new effect I simply wasn’t prepared for, so to speak, so it hit me hard and fast.
But when it all comes down to brass tacks, my issue with promiscuity is still very much about the exchange of even values and price discrimination. And I can understand how a young women might not grok this. And, as I mentioned above, I’m seeing a shift in the younger men in terms of their attitude towards promiscuity, and I’m not sure if it is part of the cause, or an effect OF our modern views on sexuality. To me, it seems like they are simply resigned to the fact that they aren’t going to marry a low N women. But, it is just as possible that they simply don’t see a problem with it, and fully intend to run their own N up a few notches before settling down. In that case, they not only expect a woman with a bit of mileage at the altar, but they intend to actively help them reach that number on the way.
To me it doesn’t matter either way. The end result is a society that ruts instead of rising above our basic nature. We’ll see an ever increasing number of OOW and Baby-Daddys, possible increases in STDs (I haven’t looked any of this up, but I know Susan and others mention it frequently, so I am assuming they are still a very real threat for the most part) and a continual slide into darker and darker morality.
To me, the fact that it is becoming “the norm” to be married with an N above a few is simply depressing and discouraging. I get that we can’t marry as young as we used to, and I have no false hope that young people will wait for marriage to have sex. I didn’t! However, there is a WIDE gap between young people having responsible sex within the confines of semi-committed relationships (serial monogamy if you will), and jumping from bed to bed racking up numbers and making notches. I’m realistic, and honestly wouldn’t want any of my children to suffer long years of celibacy if it isn’t something they feel is worth it. However, I also don’t want to see them casually banging any and all comers for the simple 30 minutes of pleasure they’ll get from it. To me, not only does it cheapen the true purpose of sex outside of reproduction (which is to solidify a bond between two loving people) but it just further pushes us toward total heathenism, which I fear we are well on our way towards already.
“I don’t call a woman who has a ONS a slut.”
Hmmmm. I agree to a point. A ONS is always slutty behavior. But simply for having had one, a woman is not necessarily a slut.
I told the story a while back of my college GF. About two years before I met her, maybe longer, she had a few hook-ups (though we did not use the term in those days). One of them was straight out of the manosphere script, vaction sex on the beach with some alpha in Cancun. But she had been badly hurt, was really ashamed and stopped cold turkey. She was completely celibate for two years when she met me. We dated for three years. After we broke up she was alone for a while then she married some guy. AFAIK, they are still married.
So, two LTRs, one of whom became her husband. But also 3 (I think it was) hook-ups. Is she a slut? At worst I guess you could call her a reformed slut. I think even that might be too harsh. I think, rather, she was an ordinary girl who was badly ill served by the culture, her parents, her friends, teachers, pretty much everyone. No one conveyed the proper moral message or even explained to her in brute tactical terms how to get what she wanted.
So, she engaged in slutty behavior, certainly. But I don’t think she was a slut.
I will say this. Had her attitude about it been, “Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,” I would not have dated her.
@Abbot
I honestly could care less. There are some girls I go on dates with, and others I just sleep with. If I’m going on a date with her, it’s because I want to, not because I need to. I’m not going to get all bitter because some girls have had sex in the past. If sex was all I cared about, I wouldn’t have taken her out, I’d have texted her at 1 AM.
@Ted D
I agree, I could care less what two guys in Aruba think. Honestly, my tolerance for N count is pretty high. I’d say a 10-15 wouldn’t even faze me at this point, especially if the girl was very attractive. It’s all about selectivity. Who did she sleep with, and what % of the guys who hit on her was that? If she’s smoking hot, and slept with 10 guys, that’s probably a very, very small % of the guys who hit on her, so I’m probably in very good company if we sleep together. As long as I don’t personally know any of the other guys she slept with, I don’t really care. I think it’s pretty insecure to worry about what hypothetical guys you’ve never met nor will ever meet think about you or if they’re snickering at you.
Escoffier – “I think, rather, she was an ordinary girl who was badly ill served by the culture, her parents, her friends, teachers, pretty much everyone. No one conveyed the proper moral message or even explained to her in brute tactical terms how to get what she wanted.
So, she engaged in slutty behavior, certainly. But I don’t think she was a slut.
I will say this. Had her attitude about it been, “Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,” I would not have dated her.”
Cosign 100%. And the first paragraph I quoted from you above is EXACTLY the point I’ve been trying to make. There are plenty of non-slutty women doing slutty things for various reasons. Most of them may learn from the mistakes, but some of them don’t. And to me, it makes MUCH more sense to simply make the environment such that they don’t feel the need or desire to try BEFORE they realize they don’t like it. I suppose some people simply have to fail before they can see the downside of a thing, but to me that makes for a lot of wasted time and effort, as well as regret. Not making the mistake in the first place is the best course of action, making it and learning right away would be second best, and from there it just gets worse in terms of final outcome. As it stands now, our society practically encourages all women to “experiment” with casual sex. If what Susan says is true, and most women are NOT cut out for casual sex, then why on earth are we trying to convince them all that they are?
Zach – “I honestly could care less. There are some girls I go on dates with, and others I just sleep with.”
And there in lies the problem for me. I never, ever “just sleep with” a woman. If I’m interested at all, it is for the long haul. So, there is no “just sleep with” pile for me, and I must judge every woman I’m interested in as a long term mate. I’m sure you understand how quickly that eliminates the vast majority of modern women.
Abbot, I think in general, you would be correct. But there is a third way for women, a way to allow women to have careers and still get married early. The third ways is this, to let young women get married to young men. Before you argue that this is crazy, consider this, my parents were married young, in their early twenties. I would argue that for guys to marry girls young is the best because guys who are younger than 30 have slept with lest women and are therefore less jaded. Women at a young age are more attractive. Both the young man and women would have to climb the career ladder together and live poor for a while, which would in turn create a lot of pair- bonding which would increase the chances of a lasting marriage.
I think that a lot of the problems with marriage nowadays occurs due to the lack of pair bonding between partners which is both a result of too much sexual experience and the fact that , often people get married at 30 when their careers are all set up and they are already successful. However, if this were changed, i.e., people came into marriage when they were poor and supported each other to become successful– it would be a trial of the marriage by fire which would force the worst marriages to break apart but hold the best marriages together like glue.
Now, Abbot, there would be more dependency on a man if you had 16/17/20 year olds marrying 30 year old men. I think this idea would also backfire in a couple of ways.
1. The men would exercise complete control over the women due to age and success which would make the marriage less an intellectual match.
2. Probably decimate the woman’s chance of having a career.
3. Lead to nastier divorces because the woman would basically live off the man for most of her adult life.
My idea can also backfire due to stupidity and youthful indiscretions, but I think my idea is possibly the only way to protect virginity and marriage in our culture. But maybe I am also ruthlessly idealistic.
Add multi-cock infertility to the myriad of reason its in a man’s best interest to not commit to sluts:
“Incidence extrapolations for USA for Pelvic Inflammatory Disease: 1,000,000 per year, 83,333 per month, 19,230 per week, 2,739 per day, 114 per hour, 1 per minute”
Yep, every minute only in the good ol USA
“Women with many sexual partners are at greater risk for sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and PID.”
Diseased products of other men are riddling through her body and while those one-nighter agents are off having babies with far less promiscuous women, you’re just a chump
@Just a thought
You’re making it way too complex. Just get married young, and DON’T HAVE KIDS until you’re older. The massive differences in womens’ earnings in every study done are between women with kids and women without kids, not married women and unmarried women. The kids are what inhibit the career, not marriage.
@Ted D
” To me, not only does it cheapen the true purpose of sex outside of reproduction (which is to solidify a bond between two loving people) but it just further pushes us toward total heathenism, which I fear we are well on our way towards already.” – Ted D
If people do not value the marital act they will not value its fruit. If people do not revere life they will not have a heatlhy awe of the union.
Children born without fathers. Infants slaughtered inside their own mothers. Human life as political tools for effeminate elites.
If people value life they will value the life-giving act. If they value the life-giving act they will value human life.
If they don’t value life they will treat a precious pearl as worthless refuse. If they don’t value the act they will treat the result as an unintended unfortunate accident, to be ignored, or even worse, disposed of.
“Oh, I loved my wild days, I’m so happy I experimented, my flings and ONSs were instrumetal to my personal growth and are a part of who I am,”
Really, how many sluts actually muster up such statements or reasoning? Probably nearly all of them. If one spews this out then simply ask her “did your grandmother feed on cock to fuel her personal growth and internalize such experiences for presentation to grandpa?
@Just a thought
I think the sites are actually pretty comparable in the sense that both are pretty lowbrow. AskMen isn’t exactly The Art of Manliness, in fact they’ve trashed that blog that really is about personal development.
I agree that no conclusions should be drawn from this data. It’s merely a rather interesting glimpse at what some people are thinking, and 50K respondents are not easily dismissed, especially as the male responses are quite consistent across countries.
Donkey – I agree 100%
And it is obvious to me that human life is not very valued in our modern society. Sure we all give it lip service, but where the rubber meets the road everyone turns a blind eye.
@just a thought
“As men argue, women’s sexual beauty peaks around 16-29. But women are at their most stupid in that time-period. As a 19 year old, I will willingly say I am stupid and will probably act more intelligently when I am 30. In their youth, women, like men, do not want to settle down, we prize fun, novelty and amusement…. which is why many 24 year olds ride the “Cock Carousel”. This is why women will pick the tall, brooding and mysterious stranger over the bland nice guy every time.It takes a very wise woman to reason out that the nice guys is the better bet. But at 20, honestly women think with their pussy and not with their brains. This is not something society can easily change.”
I believe many women think like this. They acknowledge the issue, and know the wise correction, but use their age to excuse their choices.
It’s not that they aren’t wise, it just they feel like they can smarten up afterwards.
Is it still classified as stupidity when it’s no longer unknowingly, but “thinking you beat the system”? (as in “I know what I’m doing and I think I can get away with it”)
That’s totally fair. I can only say from a female POV that my own casual experiences did not stay with me or affect me in the least, as far as I can tell. (Excepting my ONS with my husband, obvs.)
@Ted D
You wrote:
“I’m actually not very surprised by the poll results. To me it pretty much just tells me that most men are still fully plugged into the Matrix. In particular when it comes to marriage, but I think most of the results are pretty indicative of men still operating under the blue pill set of rules.”
Perhaps because, despite all the online rage and convoluted theorizing of devoted Manospherists, that dreaded “blue pill set of rules” is actually still working out okay for a solid majority of men out there. There’s a lot of guys who for whom the current SMP is NOT working out very well for, but it’s still ultimately a minority, despite Manospherists’ melodramatic pontificating about the end of western civilization and all.
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