The annual AskMen Great Male Survey is out (H/T Zach) and it always provides interesting fodder for discussion. There’s also a smaller companion Female Survey, administered by the website Pop Sugar.
A note about the respondents:
AskMen is an online men’s lifestyle site whose mission is “helping guys become better men.” They target ages 18-34, and have 19 million readers per month.
PopSugar is a women’s lifestyle site, targeting females 18-40, with 28 million readers per month. This is PopSugar’s first year hosting the female survey – the prior two years it was hosted by Cosmopolitan magazine.
The total number of survey takers is more than 50,000, and that is not split between women and men. In recent years, the male survey alone garnered over 50,000 responses, and last year the female survey had 13,000 respondents.
The male survey splits results out by country, including the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia. The female survey does not break it down.
I have no information re sexual orientation of the respondents.
Some of the responses on the female survey seem a little wacky, as you’ll see. It doesn’t pass my consultant sniff test, but I offer the findings here for you to debate as you will.
Here are the most interesting results:
Update: I forgot a couple of great questions!
What is the ultimate male status symbol?
A family: 41%
A high-profile career: 31%
A beautiful wife or girlfriend: 15%
A beautiful car: 6%
A beautiful house: 5%
A membership to an exclusive club: 2%
50% of American man said “a family.”
What defines a “real woman” in 2012?
Being financially independent: 24%
Being successful and fulfilled in her career: 21%
None of the above: 15%
Being a great mother and wife who takes care of her family: 14%
Being charismatic and popular: 1%
Being attractive and a great lover: 25%
1. Of the four choices listed below, which is the most important personality trait for deciding if a woman is “relationship material”?
A sense of loyalty: Men 36%, Women 42%
A sense of caring/nurturing: Men 23%, Women N/A
The ability to protect: Men N/A, Women 28%
A sense of humor: Men 22%, Women 7%
Intelligence: Men 19%, Women 23%
American men prioritized loyalty much more highly than other men (47%) and ranked intelligence second (21%). British men rank sense of humor as important as loyalty, both at 30%.
2. Do you believe in the institution of marriage?
Yes, I believe it is a necessary institution and one in which I will participate to help preserve:
Men 70%, Women 44%*
Yes, I believe in it as an institution, but it is not for me:
Men 18%, Women 20%
No, I do not believe in it:
Men 12%, Women 36%
*This is the first wacky number. The 2011 Great Female Survey indicated that 83% of women selected this option. I can’t explain why it would have decreased 47% in one year. Here is a 2011 chart from Pew Research that shows the sexes in line re marriage (U.S. only):
American men are the most committed to marriage (79%), Brits the least (61%).
3. How satisfied are you with your sex life?
Somewhat satisfied; there is room for improvement: Men 41%, Women 24%
I have no sex life: Men 12%, Women 27%
Not satisfied with quantity: Men 14%, Women 5% 
Completely satisfied: Men 14%, Women 19%
Not satisfied with quality: Men 7%, Women 25%
“There’s an old joke – um… two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of ‘em says, “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.” The other one says, “Yeah, I know; and such small portions.”"
Woody Allen
American men are the most satisfied (67% are completely or somewhat satisfied), and have the fewest celibates (12%, less than half the other countries).
4. At what point does the number of former sex partners that he/she’s had begin to bother you?
If he/she’s slept with more than 10 partners previously: Men 43%, Women 24%
If he/she’s slept with more than 20 partners previously: Men 21%, Women 19%
I don’t care how many previous sex partners he/she’s had: Men 20%, Women, 14%
If he/she’s slept with more than one other partner previously: Men 10%, Women 32%*
If he/she’s slept with more than 100 partners previously: Men 6%, Women 11%
*This is the other wacked result IMO. Manwhore shamer that I am, even I don’t believe that a third of women are bothered by a guy’s having had 2 previous partners.
5. Who should pay on a date?
Both should take turns: Men 51%, Women 57%
Him: Men 49%, Women 43%
Her: Men 0%, Women 0%
Strong evidence that women are not going on dates for the free chow.
6. Marriage Potential
About half of men say wife potential is somewhat important, though they won’t break up with a girl if she doesn’t have it. A third consider it essential, and the rest don’t care.
In contrast, only a quarter of women in the female survey report that it is somewhat important. Nearly half say it doesn’t matter at all, approximately the same number that indicated in the previous question that they do not intend to marry.
7. Prenups are not controversial.
35% of men say a woman’s signing one is very important or somewhat important. 42% of women are happy to sign, and another 41% of women would demand the man sign a prenup.
8. Cheating
When asked if they would cheat on a partner if they could get away with it, 73% of men were unlikely to do so, compared to 68% of women.
9. Letting yourself go
54% of men would dump a woman if she got fat. 33% of women would dump a man for adding the kilos.
10. Sexting
More than half of women have sent racy photos of themselves to spark or maintain attraction, while only a third of men have done so. 31% of women would share racy pics with friends, while 83% of men say “they are for my eyes only.”
11. Lying about # of sexual partners
53% of men have lied about the number of partners they’ve slept with.
No corresponding data for women. Why didn’t they ask that??? Is it because they assumed it’s 100%?
12. STD Testing
73% of men and 61% of women have been tested for STDs 0 or 1 times.
13. Cad moves
42% of men have or would be willing to falsely tell a woman they love her just to get her to have sex.
14. You wish.
81% of men never have anal sex.
15. Would you be offended if a woman faked an orgasm with you?
Yes, I would be offended that I wasn’t able to pleasure her. 58%
Yes, I would be offended that she was deceiving me. 25%
No. 17%
34% of men have faked orgasms. The 58% explains why women fake them in the first place. It also explains why they’re dissatisfied with the quality of sex.
16. How often do you fake orgasms?
Never: 33%
Rarely: 26%
Often: 15%
Every time: 26%
Don’t do it ladies, you’ll only paint yourself into a corner it is very difficult to crawl out of.
17. Aging gracefully
About a third of women say men start losing their looks at 30, but 21% say never. 39% of men say a woman starts losing her looks at 40, 17% say never (???) and 6% say 60 (whoo hoo!).
18. Male birth control
American men are more interested in male birth control than any other group – 86% would take it, compared to 73% overall. Meanwhile, half of women say they wouldn’t trust it even if it became available.
{ 701 comments… read them below or add one }
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Oh.
#445 -INTJ
Alas, I have no (known) affiliation with the people of the subcontinent. All I have is a stack of ever-growing books and an ever-growing sense of respect for the history and culture.
I’m not Plain Jane, either. Sai is Sai, haha. I was looking for something I can’t even remember when I found this site and all the interesting information on it. I decided to lurk here from time to time.
(I agree that no-fault divorce should choke and die.)
@Des
Des, thank you for being rather gracious, with the exception of calling me “ignorant.”
I would also like to thank you for being honest about your temptation and forthright.
In response to your post:
““Jackie gave you reasons against it.”
Now she has – she hadn’t really before. Is “It’s wrong” enough?”
=============
Well, I am not the one who made these rules. These are the beliefs of your chosen religion. It’s your avatar that believes that sexuality is best expressed within marriage!
———————–
“Her mother is the one reading 50 Shades.”
Des, that makes it obvious: She has no moral guidance at home. Her mom should be an example, not a hindrance.
She might be acting overly sexualized towards you because that is what is being reinforced at home. She is to be pitied– she needs sustenance and is being given porn.
===============
“If pre-marital sex is wrong per se, then the case is easy, but there are plenty of fine Christians who do not accept that, and if so the case against action here becomes much more difficult.”
Des, what scripture provides evidence for this position? I have found NOTHING that supports it. Please let me know.
====================
“I’m fine with suffering for Christ, but not on behalf of a moribund moral system that seems to be impeding the achievement of my goals in life, including the Christian ones, rather than furthering them.”
Isn’t our only goal to be seeking communion with God? I admit, I am distracted by worldly things OFTEN, and I struggle with this as well! But I know that our kingdom “is not of this world.”
==============
” the likelihood that she would actually benefit from dating me is not insignificant, especially since it is highly unlikely that she has marriage in mind.”
Des, what evidence do you have for this hypothesis? That a 43 year old man would be “benefiting” a teenager by dating her, with no intention towards marriage?
I would be really interested in parents’ reponses: Susan, Escoffier, Ted, Alias, J– how would you feel about a 40-something year old man thinking about your teenaged child (daughter) this way?
Des, if your pastor supports you (I would like to hear Mrs. Pastor’s viewpoint!), then I will stand down. If there is scriptural authority supporting these actions, I will stand down.
But if the only support is “because I want to,” I am afraid I will have to disagree.
Jackie,
Men can absolutely learn to be socially dominant without actually sleeping with women.
Until he actually has to sleep with a woman. Which is important, because it’s a guy’s responsibility to physically escalate.
Again, I was doing fine, all systems firing, until it came time to physically escalate, because TALKING to a girl and being flirty is nothing like actually moving through the bases.
So, Cooper, how quickly CAN you unhook a bra in the dark while you’re nervous because it’s the first time you’ve seen a pair of breasts in real life in 2 years?
Cause you aren’t going to learn THAT by opening women on the subway and practicing a Cocky/Funny routine, and if you mess THAT up it’s going to be a turn-off. And I don’t give a shit what other people say about your virginity, the point is YOU don’t feel too great about it, and that’s going to fuck your shit up and complicate everything you do.
So my advice? That virgin-tude and lack of sexual experience WILL handicap you. It will not kill you, but there is very little reason you should value it. You are giving up your attractiveness to a small section of women like those that inhabit HUS that you will probably never meet in real life, and gaining more attractiveness to the general population of women.
That’s my take on it. What I would be careful about it is accumulating too many partners or thinking casual sex is going to make you a sex god. The second is idiotic, the first will damage your ability to emotionally attach to a woman.
@Sai
Apparently Sai is Plain Jane. I’ll take a stab at her question, though:
“To all the posters who mention Game (sorry, I’m still learning about all this), where were you when you applied it? What sort of women responded -was there a lot of one race, or one age group? I ask because whenever a guy tried that dominance/mastery on me I did not like it and ended up saying in so many words “I’m going to stand/sit over there now.” Unless the guy was being a fool/dick/pest, in which case I told him so and then went to stand/sit over there. Maybe I am an anomaly.
I don’t doubt that it works on some women, but again, on whom?”
My “game” is extremely amateur, and I don’t even think of it as game anymore: what I do with women now is pretty heavily internalized unless I’ve just met them, and then there’s still some fear…but I am working on fixing that.
Who does it “work” on? I guess that depends on what you mean by “work.” It has resulted in much, much greater positive reactions from women, IOIs included, and I have much, much better relationships with these women after applying some Game. These include:
-A mid-level supervisor at my work, late 20s something UMC. Now engaged.
-A few muslim virgins
-A few catholic virgins
- Another partying Muslim girl with some “experiences” but still N=1
- A former frat girl slut who has been in a relationship for 3+ years
-older women and mothers
You know it is LEAST effective on?
Club rats. Seriously. My friends run with a club-rat social circle that has a high level of promiscuity, complete with blowjobs in the club. My game, very amateurish as it is, is LEAST effective on the women that feminists assume it MUST work best on.
My guess? These girls actually have a higher SMV and regularly get hit on by guys with much higher SMV than me, and my game is not tight enough to break through that. Not to mention that I look like a church boy, not a clubbing Jersey Shore knock-off.
I think I knew I was doing better when people started arguing about whether I was a dick or confident. Though I think most people settled on “dick”:P
Definite Beta Guy,
“-A few muslim virgins
-A few catholic virgins”
OK. You know they are virgins … how?
UMC means United Methodist Church, or what?
@ A Definite Beta Guy
Haha!
For what it’s worth, I think that the men on Jersey Shore are beyond gross.
Still, there is truth to what you wrote.
Women of high SMV have practically heard every compliment in the book, probably numerous times in fact. After awhile, compliments no longer surprise or faze them. They become numb to them, and it takes something a lot more surprising or shocking to break through.
It’s a reason why negs can work with some women. They’re a bit shocking and can throw a woman off kilter.
In my experience, it’s always refreshing to deal with a guy who doesn’t appear intimidated by me. He may find me attractive, but he composes himself in a way that signals confidence.
Of course women want men to think that they are attractive. Women, however, just don’t like to feel like we are doing men a favor by allowing them to be in our presence.
Jackie,
“You *know* the standards of your Presbyterian church (fornication is wrong).”
You know the number of single women under 40 in my (wonderful, 1000-member, chock full of Susans and Jackies) Presbyterian Church?
Zero.
I didn’t bring this darkness, just trying to find my way in it.
@ADBG
I’m not sure if you thought I was actually on-board with the ladies here supporting Andrew – I wasn’t.
I think what your saying is absolute true – it’s a huge handicap.
RiceNBeans (around #450ish) asked why not work on goals and accomplishments? And Obsidian answered correctly in saying because a guy with a ton of accomplishments may still not attract
That’s precisely why we shouldn’t encourage Andrew, or myself, in placing a value on virginity. Unless we’re certain women, at our age, are going to find having such “will power” attractive – which obviously we know isn’t the case – then any encouragement is real big disservice.
Susan,
“I know skeezy when I see it. My daughter was a lifeguard and a middle aged “dad” taking an interest in her would have definitely been viewed in a poor light by her employer. It reminds me of dreading rides home from babysitting because the dad would sometimes flirt and try to act sexy.”
Oh I totally get that – it feels skeezy to me too, but so does physically escalating via kino with someone I just met, but evidently I have to do that to prevent the chronic flaking. Sadly, it works.
The thing is, if this were my daughter I’d much rather have her dating me than hooking up with the men I’ve seen her with. Of course at first she’d probably be doing both, but who knows if she would come to enjoy actual dates and conversation enough to start to require that from future suitors? Or to stop seeing them as too beta and disqualifying men who offer them?
It’s really hard for me to see clearly that inaction is the better thing for her. As for me, I’m in the middle of a move downtown and the new job will probably open up a lot of new opportunities, so I almost certainly won’t be doing what I’m threatening to do here, but it’s surprised me how hard it is to come up with reasons why not.
Re: Obsidian, A Definite Beta Guy
So THAT’s how it works… Thanks for explaining.
(If the girls don’t want you because you aren’t “Jersey Shore” enough I say good riddance.)
(still not Jane, honest)
“RiceNBeans (around #450ish) asked why not work on goals and accomplishments? And Obsidian answered correctly in saying because a guy with a ton of accomplishments may still not attract ”
But he will be confident in his skills and dominant in the fields he is accomplished in. If he’s shy all he needs to learn is some good social skills, or hang out with shy women, in which case some good social skills will still be needed.
Jackie,
“Well, I am not the one who made these rules. These are the beliefs of your chosen religion. It’s your avatar that believes that sexuality is best expressed within marriage!”
No doubt that is true. But we don’t always get the best in life.
What if my lack of recent sexual experience is impeding my chances for marriage and her sexuality would be better expressed with me than those with whom she is currently expressing it? I’m aware that is presuming a lot, but if you put a gun to my head, that’s my best effort to discern the true situation.
“She has no moral guidance at home. She might be acting overly sexualized towards you because that is what is being reinforced at home. She is to be pitied– she needs sustenance and is being given porn.”
Oh she likely has moral guidance (she has solid college/career plans and comes across as very confident and competent, she takes good care of herself), its just that that moral system is sex positive, regardless of marriage.
My guess is that at least some of the appeal of 50 Shades (and Twilight) is a simple craving for masculinity (she’s quite feminine – i.e. greater differentiation of gender roles) rather than raw physical lust alone. No doubt the latter is also involved.
“Des, what scripture provides evidence for this position? I have found NOTHING that supports it. Please let me know.”
Oh I’m sure they’ve come up with something. Obviously I haven’t found it persuasive or I would not have abstained as long as I have. The point is that the moral system to which you adhere has been almost entirely abandoned, to the extent that those who follow it will have difficulty finding mates – in the case of intellectual UMC professionals seeking likewise, great difficulty.
The “plenty of women” to which you refer have remarkable difficulty working me into their busy schedules.
“Isn’t our only goal to be seeking communion with God? I admit, I am distracted by worldly things OFTEN, and I struggle with this as well! But I know that our kingdom “is not of this world.””
It’s not just our kingdom. Should I deny the children I’m having difficulty producing their place as well?
“Des, what evidence do you have for this hypothesis? That a 43 year old man would be “benefiting” a teenager by dating her, with no intention towards marriage?”
Again, I’m 42. If I had to guess, she probably puts me at about 35. Given her likely current sex life, based on the men I’ve seen her with and how they act, I have difficulty imagining how it would not benefit her. I’ve dated younger women before, though obviously not near this gap in age, and they tend to find it very enjoyable due to my varied interests.
I probably should have married a couple of them.
As for marriage in this case, who knows what the future holds? I’m assuming she would see me as one of her fun flings before she settles down after her career is established.
Jackie,
“I would like to hear Mrs. Pastor’s viewpoint!”
I have no doubt she would be utterly mortified, but due to her feminism, not to any sense of traditional morality. After all, fornication is fine as long as you pick someone of the same age or gender.
And seeing as how our church has no single female members under 40, she would speak with about as much authority on the subject as on the Higgs Boson.
Sassy,
No hard feelings either way with the club rats. They really do not have a high SMV. They just hang out with high SMV men. They aren’t very attractive to me, either. Bitchy, distant behavior is a huge turn-off.
Likes attract likes, I guess. I’m not a clubber.
I figured I might want to try open negs, but that’s something that makes me uncomfortable. Way easy to fuck that up as a noob.
@ Cooper
No, I know that you are mostly on board with not valuing virginity. I just want to use as an example. It’s okay to be dominant with women, can be learned. Sexual experience is taught by sexual experience, though, and that’s a critical weakness N=0 guys will have, and that’s something that’s not being pointed out.
Just wanted to use you as an example. I figure you do not have awesome bra-undoing skills
Hey Des,
I was just thinking about this conversation. I apologize if I was too harsh and judgmental towards you. You are, as you have described, in a really tough situation with absolutely no moral support, especially from the people who should be giving you the most.
I am truly, truly sorry. It’s not right and it’s not just; you must feel like Job some days! (Minus the boils, sores, and deaths of oxen.)
Here is where I come from: I was brought up in a very devout UMC Catholic family, with prayers before meals and nightly devotions, in addition to weekly Mass and Reconciliation. I know people thought my family was weird, too churchy, and definitely uncool.
I lost my mom, spiritual mentor, professional mentor and grandparents all before I was old enough to drink. If I didn’t have God and my faith, I don’t know how I would have made it through without alcohol/drugs/something to numb myself. I believe my faith saved me from a very dark path.
I was engaged to a man who I loved, very much, who encouraged me to resign my scholarship and drop out of school. I trusted him. And I was absolutely upfront with him with my beliefs, as well. The few people I mentioned my beliefs to, mocked me or thought I was totally lame.
The week before our original wedding day, I got a 2am phonecall. I had left a message (not a text) that said, I love you. The girl he was having sex with intercepted it in the middle of the night, to tell me she was with him and wearing his shirt.
That was that, obviously. The next week I had to stand up in my roommate’s wedding, and it was so incredibly difficult to stand there and smile, when some of those people who mocked me were gossiping about how I got cheated on.
So I have felt like Job (or Job-ette), too.
Does that mean that I can say, Well, that’s definitive proof! Is the only way to get married by having sex to “get it over with” and make myself acceptable? Has everything I’ve been taught a lie? Do I forsake my faith’s teachings because they are inconvenient, or go against the grain of society?
In other words, what kind of God do I believe in, if I have to manipulate my faith to succeed in a fallen world? Does my faith only extend as far as convenience and the “SMP”?
To me, the answer is, No. My trust is in God. Even if it means that I go pro with being a “cat lady” without marriage or kids and the manosphere gets to laugh at me.
As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I believe it will take a miracle for me to get married. So I am doing my best to make peace with things, either way.
Des, if after prayer and asking God, you are led to have sex with this teenager, that is really between you and your conscience. I have said more than enough on the subject, and wish you the best in your journey.
Peace, Des–
A Definite Beta Guy, not to be pedantic, but I’ve been wearing bras for quite a while now, and I still take off my own bra like a t-shirt because it’s just easier that way. Why does a guy need excellent bra-undoing skills?
Jackie, *big hugs*. You will definitely not end up a cat lady. There are lots of men who are looking for a girl just like you. I see a loving husband and adorable children in your future for sure!
@Jackie 464
Thanks for sharing some of your story. Sending a Colonel Brandon hug your way (definitely not a Willoughby hug). lol
That was such a despicable thing your fiance did. I wish you never met him but I’m glad you found out before and not after the wedding.
Jackie, *big hugs*. You will definitely not end up a cat lady. There are lots of men who are looking for a girl just like you. I see a loving husband and adorable children in your future for sure!
Cosign this. There is a saying in my country that “When God closes a door he opens a window” . It was a lot better that you found out before getting married than after giving this worthless man a kid or two isn’t it? And you survived and are putting yourself out there. I truly think is just a matter of time. Blessings!
@Hope, Ana, Han Solo
Thanks, guys! *big hugs back* If only I had found HUS earlier!
Meanwhile, I am learning here every day. The articles and community here are awesome! And part of me is really looking forward to the day when I can send Susan an engagement pic, so I can tell everyone that “It CAN be done!”
Later, gators!
“the woman we end up with will probably be grateful of our knowledge, especially if she, herself is fairly inexperienced.”
If she is “fairly inexperienced” [as solely and satisfactorily defined by the man] then he of course is ecstatic and will do all that he can to to please and keep this highly worthy prize
Jackie, that must have been really rough. Internet hugs and all that.
Jackie, be thankful you found out about that man’s faults before you tied yourself to him. That was most likely the hand of God providing you with guidance.
I had a friend who has a similar situation, except he had bought a house with his fiance, and 4 weeks before the wedding, she was acting strange. He began to ask questions, and found out she was sleeping with a bartender at the restaurant where she waited tables. He broke it off with her (at the cost of a great deal of mental anguish), and luckily, her dad was a good man, offset my buddies costs of moving out of the intolerable situation.
He’s now married to a wonderful woman, with an 8 month old beautiful boy. He lives in a house that he and his wife bought at a great price, and put a lot of sweat labor to remodel. He stays at home as the primary parent, and they have worked out a great compromise to ensure that they will have a long lasting, loving relationship and a stable home for their children.
So do not let your heart be heavy. You will not be a cat lady. God has bigger plans for you.
@Jackie
“unless he is some sort of would-be polygamist”
Lol, definitely not. I just want one and only one for the rest of my life. I’m so sorry for what you went through. But honestly, I think you would have a really high chance of finding someone in a LTR than someone like me. I’m sure you will find one. I just think girls tend to have it easier than guys in finding relationships whether it be LT or ST. For example, I use to work with this one girl who had 4 kids (2 biological and 2 adopted) and just got out of a 10+ year relationship. She complained how no guy would ever date someone like her who has 4 kids. I told her that she would have a higher chance of finding somebody than someone like me who’s still a virgin and hasn’t dated or been in a relationship for 7 years. In less than a month, she eventually found someone and a good guy mind you. So if a girl like her who has 4 kids can find someone, I’m sure you can too. You should be able to find or date someone within your denomination, if not outside of it (assuming that you found someone that you’re compatible with).
@Cooper
“Game works – there’s no doubt about that. It’s just I’m not a huge fan.”
I don’t understand why would you advocate it in the first place if that’s how you feel. Are you planning to use some of these strategies in finding a potential LTR or for just some STRs?
@OfftheCuff
“One of the guys nailed, lose your V as quickly as possible, and then set about finding what you really want.”
I have a hard time finding the logic in that. I know this one person who has sexual experience and told me one day that he’s glad that he’s had sex with the girls he’s had in the past. His reason was because it helped him figure out what he seeks for with woman in a LTR. I didn’t understand that logic because it would seem to me that you don’t have to have sexual experience to find out what kind of girl/woman you want in a LTR. Yet, with the current girl he’s with, he doesn’t see her as a LTR, which is funny because the girl thinks the opposite. He’s told her that on numerous occasions that this wasn’t going to work out, even before and after they messed around. But she deluded herself into agreeing with him and still dated him. He broke it off with her for a while, but then she became a complete mess and I guess out of pity decided to see her again. Like I said, I don’t see the logic in what you said.
@Sai
You don’t annoy me at all, lol. You’ve been really helpful and sincere about it. I just find it stupid that in this day and age most women think that a guy being a virgin is a turn off, as if fucking 10+ plus guys or probably getting gang banged by those same guys makes it any better. With all this talk about learning the game, I just feel more turned off by it. I like Rice n Beans perspective on having good social skills which I’m very confident in. In my previous job, I was reading Neil Strauss’ book about the game and a co-worker of mine noticed I was reading it and had a discussion with me about it. He was arguing how he favored a lot of the ideas in the book and said that monogamy is not real. The more I listened to this guy and how he applied a lot of those ideas to the girls he talked to, the more I got pissed off and decided not to finish the book and returned it to the library. It seems like the book applies to people who go out and party which goes against my Straight Edge beliefs. I don’t feel comfortable applying those ideas in real life situations because I’m not greedy and I’m not trying to rack up the pussy count. I just want one woman that I can enjoy all the fruits of relationship with like love, sex, doing cool activities, etc. If being a virgin makes me a loser in many eyes, so be it. At least I have my health and not have to worry about going to the clinic to get tested. I feel good about not hurting another girl’s feelings by putting her emotional state of mind at risk for selfish reasons. Also, I save myself the heartache of being with the wrong person that does not love me at all.
Andrew, you are over-thinking things.
Your friend is right, because he has a woman that he COULD have an LTR with if he so wanted, and you don’t.
The reality is sexual attraction precedes having a relationship with the vast majority of women these days. Old-school courting, where you get to know each other before realizing attraction is there, is all but dead. Note I say attraction, not sex… however, if do you have sex then you likely have generated the necessary attraction and escalation from start to finish.
For a man, the strategies to find a short-term mate are nearly identical for a long-term one, as you can always make something short longer. The hard part is getting her attracted to you, not her accepting your offer of monogamy.
If you cannot generate attraction, then you have nearly zero chance at a having relationship.
@ Andrew
For what it’s worth, my ex was a virgin when I met him. He was very much an “Alpha”, but he was also extremely picky with women. He chose not to sleep around, even though he had every opportunity to do so, and that was one of the things about him that was super attractive to me.
I don’t think that a man needs to have sexual experience to be successful with women. It may help to foster attraction in your run-of-the-mill type of woman, but I highly doubt that it’s the type of woman you want to end up with in the long run.
Women such as myself, Jackie, Anacaona, Hope, J, and others appreciate a man who hasn’t plowed through lots of women. Sure, women such as us may be rarer or harder to find, but I believe women such as us offer the best chance of having successful and happy marriages with men.
If you want just any woman to be with, do as you wish. I think it’s important, however, for you to be aware of the idea that the women you ideally want have high standards for the men they involve themselves with. We want to find a man like you just as much as you want to find someone like us.
The question is, do you continue on your current path, or do you change your course to pick an easier target?
For what it’s worth, my ex was a virgin when I met him. He was very much an “Alpha”, but he was also extremely picky with women.
So, what initially attracted you to this average looking guy?
@Jackie
Your experience was awful. I can see why it must make you despair at times. But I hope you stay optimistic, with an open heart, and that you keep taking advantage of the many opportunities that are still open to you.
Jackie,
Yup, a cute one at that. It was more of a shit test/funny response rather than a mean remark. Context is sometimes hard to get across.
@ Ramble
Well, he wasn’t average looking. He was quite handsome, but he started talking to me about Star Wars in a bar, which threw me for a loop.
I was drawn to his quiet confidence, and I was also drawn to the fact that he was very intelligent. On the first night we met, we talked about topics/issues that I had never been able to talk about with other men I had met before. He was a software programmer, but he also looked good enough to eat.
As I’ve mentioned before, I honestly believed, initially, that he would be the man I would marry. He was everything that I wanted. He was physically attractive, intelligent, had a great career, and was well off financially. He was my “Mr. Darcy” for a time.
I wonder sometimes whether or not I will meet another man like him, preferably without the bad aspects of him which prompted our breakup.
Well, he wasn’t average looking. He was quite handsome …
I assumed as much. I was kind of teasing you.
@ Ramble
I’m cool with that. I enjoy a good teasing every now and again.
@Jackie
I weighed in already, but here is how I feel about the issue:
1. It is not normal or healthy for a teenager to be attracted to a 42 yo man. Period. If she expresses such attraction, something is wrong of the psychological variety.
2. It is not admirable to pursue sex with someone who clearly has an unhealthy and disturbed expression of sexuality. It is perhaps understandable by a boy of her own age, but a man with judgment and experience should steer clear, or even admonish such a girl that her behavior is highly inappropriate.
3. As a mother, I would see such a display from my daughter as profoundly indicative of requiring mental health intervention. I would regard any middle-aged man who expressed sexual interest (I don’t believe Desi did to her face) as a predatory sexual opportunist.
4. Bottom line: A 24 year age difference between a teenage girl and a middle aged man having sex is well beyond the standard of ethical behavior. It makes me think of runaways who become prostitutes.
5. Making assumptions about her behavior based on rumors at the pool, a curvaceous body type or reading material are invalid and do not justify sexual pursuit.
@Desiderius
I’m at a loss for words.
That is some serious and disturbing rationalization. At least Humbert Humbert was honest about his motives.
I would rather have my daughter hooking up with a hipster pot-smoking drummer than dating a 42 yo man. Seriously.
@Jason
I don’t think you’ve mentioned your changing ways before. Last I heard you’d broken up with your gf. Can you explain what you’re thinking, and why you have decided to make a change? I’m curious about the male mindset here.
@SW
The trouble with the “divide by two and add seven” benchmark is that if by some tragedy you are I would become single again, the men we would attract would be dead.
For the record I would NOT be pleased if my now 18 year old daughter brought home a man my age and introduced him as her boyfriend. That being said, if she were 24 or older, I probably wouldn’t care so much. I wouldn’t necessarily be pleased, but it wouldn’t send up a shit-ton of red flags either.
I remember once upon a time saying I would never get with a woman more than 5 years older/younger than myself. My fiance is 8 years younger. Not only am I OK with it, I tend to think of it as a bit of an accomplishment.
Plus, she is younger than my ex-wife, so win/win!
The trouble with the “divide by two and add seven” benchmark is that if by some tragedy you are I would become single again, the men we would attract would be dead.
Well that and that the age of consent should be 14.
re: Desi possibly being with some sexually active hot 18 year old.
One thing I gathered from the story was that if Desi did pursue her, it would be in a manner more stable than she has likely been experiencing. That is, that she was possibly pursuing Desi for some hot sex, and he might be able to provide something more then simple sex.
I am not saying that anyone has to like that scenario anymore than he and she hooking up, but, that was my understanding.
And, Susan, I am not saying that you should like the scenario, but calling him a predator when she was pursuing him is a bit much.
“I don’t understand why would you advocate it in the first place if that’s how you feel. Are you planning to use some of these strategies in finding a potential LTR or for just some STRs?”
I wasn’t advocating, I was pointing out that “learn game” is the only helpful advice your going to ever find, online. Also, I try to highlight the silliness around the fact that the only advice for men seeking LTR is to adopt STR strategies. This is what Game is – STR strategy. As OTC mentioned, whether looking for STR or LTR the advice is the same – Game.
That’s why it’s so foolish for people to commend us, guys, for abstaining from casual sex, as if it has true LTR-value. The fact that the only counsel we get is Game dictates that we must master STR-strategies to gain access to LTRs. So, that suggested LTR-value of our abstinence is complete worthless since we must obtain sufficient STR-value first, in order to access the appreciation of the former. Am I making sense?
Andrew, I forgot to say, do stick around.
@Susan
Her 18 year old brother has to register for the draft and she can be responsible for a nuclear reactor at 19 if she enlists now.
Both can vote for president in less than 100 days.
Personally, I find a lot of 22 year olds right out of college pretty immature, especially compared to 18 year olds I’ve known carrying rifles (or the equivalent depending on service) but our law considers them adults so I have a hard time blaming older people for reacting as if they are.
Agreed, it’s the teen thing that is really questionable. I don’t care how mature a good looks or acts at 18, her brain has not finished developing, especially the area responsible for sound judgment.
I’m going to bow out of this convo b/c it’s a massive rabbit hole. I have spoken as a mother, a role I cannot divorce myself from.
@Jackie
Given women have decided my morals, values, and genes aren’t worth continuing to the next generation (in a weird way, even my own sister has agreed with them) I don’t see why I should worry about the children they did choose to have be protected by those same morals. values, and genes.
If they’re not good enough to continue why are they good enough to enforce now?
Look, I can understand why a parent wouldn’t want that from their daughter… but any man, regardless of his age, wanting to have sex with a hot girl who is both sexually and legally mature is not predatory. He’s normal.
As long as there is consent between legal adults and no cheating involved, there’s nothing unethical about it. She’s an adult who is responsible for her own decisions.
The premise that a guy has to justify sexual pursuit is how hopeless betas are created. If he’s attracted to her, and she consents as a legal adult, he doesn’t need to justify anything.
I don’t meen to pick on you Susan, because your views are pretty common. But it’s an example of how society has demonized normal male sexuality.
I’m not saying all 40+ year old guys need to go after 18 year old girls… but I’m saying they shouldn’t feel the least bit ashamed for being attracted to them, and shouldn’t be the least bit ashamed for taking action if the option is presented by another consenting adult.
So should we require children to live at home until they’re 21? Not let them vote until they’re 21?
Either you’re an adult or you’re not.
This convo about the lifeguard has gotten off track, like some camper’s version of “telephone.”
Here is the convo:
Her: What are you reading?
Me: McLynn’s biography of Marcus Aurelius.
Her: Have you read 50 Shades of Grey? (twirl hair, gaze into eyes)
Me: No, I think it’s bullshit. (hold gaze)
Her: It’s all about sex.
Me: And fake dominance. Not interested.
Her: What is real dominance?
Me: A man who knows what he’s doing with a woman. (not the best answer, but what can you do?)
Her: (wide-eyed silence, gaze, grin, licks lips) See you soon… (walks away)
Without Desiderius’ editorial embelishments of sexual gazing, the only thing she did was mention 50 Shades. That’s hardly a proposition for sex or even a date.
Desi mentioned dominance – I’m reminded of the Booth Jonathan scene in Girls. His offered definition about men “who know what they are doing with a woman” is out of bounds, IMO.
Her response was to walk away. She sounds like a brat, and perhaps a tease, but I don’t think this signals interest. If that were real, she’d have handed her number over by now. In any case, it’s not Desi’s place to judge that dating or banging him would leave her better off than he found her.
Is the parable of the Good Samaritan coming next?
“The premise that a guy has to justify sexual pursuit is how hopeless betas are created. If he’s attracted to her, and she consents as a legal adult, he doesn’t need to justify anything.”
Although it contradicts my previous statement, I do agree with this. I don’t want MY daughter dating a 42yo guy, but other than that I don’t see a problem with it ethically or legally. If she is 18, she is legally an adult, and as such she can give consent to sex to any man she deems worthy based on whatever criteria she chooses. And, I would NOT hold it against any man to try and get with an 18yo that he finds attractive sexually. Of course I’m talking in principle, assuming there is nothing sneaky or underhanded going on.
The reason for my dual thought on this is simple: MY daughter is MY concern. Other people’s daughters are THEIR concern. If they did their job, she shouldn’t be bringing home a man her father’s age. I personally wouldn’t pursue such a young woman, but that is because I would want to have intelligent conversations with her when we weren’t having sex. Based on my discussions with my own daughter and her friends, I can’t imagine what we would talk about during non-sexy time. Since I don’t do casual, there would be no booty calls or “hit it and quit it”.
Susan,
The biggest thing that I’m trying to get more comfortable with is the ability to be alone, and this is in respect to both male friends and females. I’ve always done really well by having a set routine and making plans, and I’ve always dreaded heading into a weekend and not having something to do or look forward to. Before I moved after college this was generally filled with friends and girls, and after I moved this need was mostly filled by girls, especially in the fall.
Now I’m taking a more relaxed approach, trying to be more comfortable with time to myself, and I only want to invite girls into my life if I actually want to spend time with them and not just because I need a time filler.
Also, I’m backing off the hookup route. I still go out, get numbers if I feel so inclined (only if I intend to set something up) and have a good time, but I’m calming down because I think it’ll be better for a number of reasons. The situation I described is actually the third time in the past 3 months where I’ve turned down a presumed ONS, and I’m completely fine with that.
Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.
We’ll see how this all plays out.
JutR, Ramble, Bellita
Thanks, you guys! *hugs back*
Bellita, you are right about focusing on the opportunities and chances that are here right now. There is a TON of stuff to be grateful for!
To quote from my beloved _North and South_ (British book & film, Susan thinks it’s cool, too): I’m looking towards the future!
The desire may be normal, but the pursuit of the opportunity is not, IMO.
I have been waiting for someone to make this point. I think it’s important to say that civilization depends on both men and women repressing many of their sexual urges.
If you took a poll of men and asked them if they feel comfortable with a middle aged high school teacher having sex with a recent high school graduate, I think a very high percentage would say no.
I think it’s because the odds of a girl that age being attracted to a much older man are so slim that it implies instability on her part, and that makes the sexual pursuit unseemly.
Make her 21, and I have no problem. That’s what I consider the legal age of adulthood. For example, the Bill Murray/Scarlett J. romance in Translation was charming. Then again, he was a famous movie star. I doubt she would have been interested if he were just an aging businessman.
@Jason
“The biggest thing that I’m trying to get more comfortable with is the ability to be alone, and this is in respect to both male friends and females. … I’ve always dreaded heading into a weekend and not having something to do or look forward to.”
==========
Jason, I think you’ve made an awesome decision, one that will help you in many ways. We can find out who we really are when we are not “doing” and “going” all the time. It will probably feel weird and uncomfortable at first– you’re basically living out a meditation practice. Cool!
You’ve also given me a lot to think about and a new viewpoint. So, thanks!
Good luck and keep up posted!
@Jimmy
What does living at home have to do with adulthood? College kids leave home at 18, and I’ve already lamented the loss of in loco parentis. Clearly, they do require supervision at that age.
FWIW, I don’t think people should vote or fight in combat before 21 either.
And car rental companies consider the age of adulthood to be 25
Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?
@Herb
” I don’t see why I should worry about the children they did choose to have be protected by those same morals. values, and genes.
If they’re not good enough to continue why are they good enough to enforce now?”
========
Holy crap, what an unfortunate viewpoint! Herb, has something happened? I thought everything was going well with you and your GF?
The answer to your question is:
Integrity
You hold yourself to a high standard not in some kind of “quid pro quo” where someone pays you back, or has to earn it.
A person with integrity will hold themselves to that standard–even if the entire world is crumbling around them– not because of others’ worthiness, but because of their own.
@Jason
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really respect your trying to work on yourself to feel more comfortable being alone. I recall going through a similar phase when I was around your age and found it immensely helpful. To this day, I value my alone time very much. Good luck.
@Susan
“The reason for my dual thought on this is simple: MY daughter is MY concern. Other people’s daughters are THEIR concern.
Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?”
============
WELL SAID.
I don’t know why there is such an “I’ve got mine, to hell with you!” mentality, especially on the ‘sphere. (Ted, you are constantly reminding us of your ethics, and exhorting a return to Biblical morality. The basic underpinning of the whole system is “love thy neighbor as thyself.”)
My mentor, Sister S, recommended two books to me. Both talk about how we destroy the fabric of society when we focus on ourselves, refusing to acknowledge our connectedness to others. It hurts us mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and FISCALLY. Basically, we’re all in this together!
Well I’m glad you’re consistent. With the “living at home”, that was more along the lines of: Should parents be legally and financially responsible for their children until 21, instead of 18?
Well sure, when you word it that way. It makes it sound like he’s having sex with a current student, which brings up conflict of interest and sexual harassment concerns.
But his being a teacher had nothing to do with the interaction IRL.
Here’s a more appropriate question:
Is it wrong for a 40 year old guy to accept the sexual advances of a hot, physically mature 18 year old girl?
I think you’d see far fewer guys say it’s wrong. And I also think a good percentage of the ones who say it is wrong would answer that way because it’s what they’ve been conditioned to believe as the socially acceptable answer. I know I would’ve answered that way in the past during my beta days.
Again, this goes back to why I dislike surveys asking about hypothetical behavior.
@Susan
Maybe 18 year olds acted differently in your day then they do now?
When I think of myself and my friends at 18, or see the 18 year olds on my campus today, “innocent” and “naive” are not words that come to mind.
@JH
Wow, Jimmy, I’d like to see you answer this question again in 20 or so years, once you have a daughter of your own!
It doesn’t matter WHO makes the advances, the onus is on the older person to say, Hey, this is not balanced, and cut it off at the past.
Because it’s not balanced: Emotionally (I would *hope* that a middle-aged man and teen girl are not emotional equals), mentally or life-experience wise.
The power differential is just too great– there can never be true equality. It is lopsided, which makes it prime ground for dysfunction. The teenager girls I knew in this situation were ALWAYS– 100%– not balanced. Daddy issues, abuse or trauma was in their pasts, ALWAYS.
Yesterday we were talking about Lolita. Jimmy. I was reading the way one critic describes Humbert and his relationship to Lolita:
“It never occurs to him to consider her as a human being, or as anything but a dream-figment made flesh.”
Or as a way to get “tight Game.”
@Susan
Maybe it’s unusual, but at about the time I turned 16 I was told that I was about to become an adult, and with that came all the responsibilities and liabilities of being an adult.
This came from family, school, community, etc….
So when I hear people making excuses for young people’s supposed lack of maturity, I’m really unsympathetic. I see it as a copout.
Sure, I did a few dumb things in those years, but ultimately I was 100% responsible for that behavior by my own choosing. Not my parents, not my teachers, not my government leaders. So I should have to stand by it.
bobbyB
Where do you get the 41% from?
Either way, I can’t imagine that promiscuity wouldn’t be a concern for any man looking to partner with a woman in marriage.
That said, there are situations in which a woman can show such obvious and intense attraction, adoration, and loyalty to a man, that her previous track record is thought to be of much less consequence than it would have been otherwise. It’s difficult to doubt a woman who seems so taken with you, you know?
@Jimmy
Very definitely. I recall being told clearly when I was growing up that I would need to live independently as an adult when I turned 21. Obamacare provides for kids being on their parents’ health insurance to age 26!
First, she didn’t make sexual advances. Second, it’s not illegal, so we’re talking about ethics.
Does it make a difference if she’s a stripper? A girl who graduated in late June vs. late May? A lifeguard in a red one-piece with a whistle around her neck? A drug addict?
It’s socially acceptable because a civilized society has morals. The “dirty old man” meme has been around forever, and no one really believes that women at their physical peak select men their father’s age unless they’re troubled or are being forced into an arranged marriage.
This sounds like another example of “alpha” morals being considerably more flexible and fluid. This kind of prioritization of “sexual access” regardless of what’s good for the individual is repellent to me. As is the justification that such activities would be beneficial for the girl.
For the record, I would be equally disgusted with a 40 yo woman having sex with an 18 yo boy, no matter how interested he was.
@Jackie
Everything is fine.
She never wanted children. She’s 41 and I’m 45. Even if she wanted to have children we’re too old to responsibly start a family.
Doesn’t mean I didn’t want them.
But women have 100% authority on which men carry on into the next generation. My values, genes, and believes were found wanting.
My money, however, has not been.
This does not incline me to think protecting their children is very important. If what I bring to the table isn’t good enough to create children how is it good enough to protect them.
I do. I don’t chase 25 year olds, much less 18 year olds. I have even expressed, more than once, strong disquiet over the large number of people who enter the S&M community at 18. I think you need some life experience before doing something like that. As a result I’m somewhat protective of “our kids” much as I have been of teenagers entering the goth scene when I was out and active more.
However, that protection is based on community and seeing a community I value continuing.
For the general population, however, I see no need to action strongly. Women who are of the cut who have called me geek, loser, bigot, fag, caveman, and so on, wanted me to be emotional support while they banged the badboy, or who valued fun over responsibility have no claim on
While they have used the government to extract my resources to help pay for the feral children they got via their choices it is unreasonable that they should expect my voluntary enlistment in protecting the daughters they were too busy to raise from men happy to take advantage of feral 18 year olds.
For nearly a decade I have said the most dangerous thing in the world are unattached men. We have no long term future (ie, beyond our death) to care about and no one. Even if the majority of us won’t use that freedom to abuse others we have no reason to protect women from the minority. We have plenty of reasons not to protect women from them.
I have come to have one answer to people who use my values to demand I defend them from the consequences of their choices while they spit upon me:
I will not be torn to pieces for the benefit of people who rejected me and what I hold dear. I will stand apart, as they required, and leave them in peace.
Andrew, if you want to compensate for the lack of experience you will have by keeping your virginity put even more effort into inner game and deeper foundation and self development and attractiveness. Most certainly lift weights and learn a martial art. Both will naturally increase dominance and confidence. Follow Ians advice and limit masturbation, A LOT. It is common finding among a subgroup of PUAs that have experimented with this that it does help a lot and my own experience confirms this. Limiting it builds up some sort of hormonal charge that gives you more energy and vitality, paradoxically gives you a more sexual vibe, makes you a lot less needy, more confident, more relaxed++.
The book Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden is a big favorite of mine and often recommended by others. It does not go the route of just positive thinking but gives you reason to become confident. It also makes you into a man a woman can trust in the sense she trusts a very masculine man.
Check out the Rawness (Susan links to it) and delve into some of the psychological self help tools he suggests in some of his posts.
Also, learn to dance salsa or some other dance that teaches some sensuality.
That’s proof of immaturity! As I said, 18 yo do not have fully mature brains for making good judgments. Removing supervision from college campuses is why we have binge drinking (a college shrink told me he estimates that 1/3 of the students at his school are future alcoholics) and hookup culture. We gave them the freedom to make bad choices and they have complied with enthusiasm.
Hendrix,
It would be tempting for any man at any age to give in to the advances of a hot, physically mature woman. That said, it’s been my experience that 5 minutes of conversation with even the hottest 18 yr old girl is more than enough to reveal that she is a “girl” and not a “woman.”
You can argue whether this is biological or cultural, but whatever the case, girls (and boys) at that age are not mature. I’m only 2 years shy of 40, and not immune to the physical graces of 18 year old girls, I think it’s safe to say that I would avoid getting mixed up even for the night with anyone who isn’t at least a few years into her twenties.
@Cooper
“That’s why it’s so foolish for people to commend us, guys, for abstaining from casual sex, as if it has true LTR-value. The fact that the only counsel we get is Game dictates that we must master STR-strategies to gain access to LTRs. So, that suggested LTR-value of our abstinence is complete worthless since we must obtain sufficient STR-value first, in order to access the appreciation of the former. Am I making sense?”
Yeah it does.
“Beware of anyone here stroking your ego about saving yourself being a plus, it is misleading.”
I’m starting to understand that whole lot more now. Thanks for the words of wisdom. I’ll definitely keep that in mind.
I think that is unusual. My generation has raised the most coddled, helicoptered, micromanaged generation in history. Imagine if the average age at marriage went back to 22 for men and 20 for women, as it was in 1960. Unthinkable!
I actually noted that I completely understand why a parent wouldn’t want that for their daughter. And I agree that I think I would feel the same if placed in that position.
But that’s an emotional response. I’m trying to take a detached, logical view of the situation. And I still think that as long as there is consent between two legal adults, there is nothing ethically wrong with the man’s behavior. It’s not his responsibility to save the world or prevent other people from self-destructive behavior.
Again, I disagree. They’re both legal adults, both fully capable of making their own decisions, and both responsible for those decisions.
Barring a few exceptions, nobody is more socially and sexually powerful as a hot 16-25 year old girl. And most of them are fully aware of it.
That’s their problem to fix, not his.
So? If he doesn’t use any kind of explicit deception, he can think of her any way he wants. And vice versa. Again, as long as he’s not actively deceiving her, it’s not his responsibility to ensure that she doesn’t get a bad deal. And vice versa.
@Jimmy
“about the time I turned 16 I was told that I was about to become an adult, and with that came all the responsibilities and liabilities of being an adult.”
That is interesting! How did your parents put this into practice?
I presume you were paying some kind of rent/% of the mortgage, % of the utilities and putting money towards the grocery bill?
If so, how did you work and balance school? I would imagine you would have either worked a ton of hours or found a lucrative position.
@Scot
This is the core truth.
I think little of the man my age who chases 18 year olds (and have since about 30) because of how much he reveals about himself and how little there is to him. While in the occasional guy mood I’ll joke such women are fun if you carry a ball gag the joke is meant to speak as much about why I am uninterested in them despite looks they might bring to the table.
Hell, having been jamming on Jeff Wayne’s War of the Worlds for a week I found out last Friday that none of my coworkers had heard of it despite being age peers. Sure, it came out in 1977 but it is the 38th best selling album in UK history.
If people my age often don’t understand what I’m talking about how much worse can it be with an 18 year old.
Not to mention although I love the movie Guenevere I would not want to be Connie.
@Jackie
Feminists manned the barricades to eliminate that standard en mass in 1998.
Having saved their alpha they cannot complain that other men have learned from it.
Even if her interviews last year prove just how damaged the woman that girl became is.
So you don’t Bill Clinton did anything wrong in having sex with an intern?
So you reject the Golden Rule as a moral standard?
@Jimmy
” nobody is more socially and sexually powerful as a hot 16-25 year old girl. And most of them are fully aware of it.”
Socially powerful maybe on a HS campus or for getting invited to a frat party. But in the real world?
Let me tell you something: Social power is not free drinks or being paid for on a date. The person with the power is the one paying the bills.
(I have never felt “powerful” as much as “vulnerable” when I am walking by myself, especially at night. )
Besides that, it’s not like she can convert this “power” into cash or any kind of fungible currency; it is entirely dependent on what men choose to do.
There are times (like now, for example) that I really wish we had to switch places for a day. There is this book, _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by Ursula LeGuin. Sci-Fi. It describes a people whose gender morphs by the moon cycles– male one month, female the next. (It’s a fascinating book.)
I wish men could see that for all the “perks” of things like free drinks (with the intention of getting the girl intoxicated) there are drawbacks. Usually there is an expectation of quid pro quo, at some level.
The old adage is very true: There is no such thing as a free lunch.
@Jimmy
“The teenager girls I knew in this situation were ALWAYS– 100%– not balanced. Daddy issues, abuse or trauma was in their pasts, ALWAYS.
That’s their problem to fix, not his.”
============
True, they need to resolve their issue.
But dating this guy is not going to do that. In all likelihood, he is going to make it worse. Someone with these issues, esp. past trauma, should not be dating at all until they are healthier.
Jimmy, you seem to be confusing “not illegal” with “ethical.”
@Susan
I was called enough names and excluded from enough conversations (try having to apologize to wife’s uncle at Christmas for getting mad because he called you a Nazi to maintain family peace) to realize whatever I think I should STFU.
HUS is the first place I’ve openly discussed social issues and politics in years and a tentative step into a social commentary link on G+ yesterday reminded me why I quit.
Women are so damned focused on Roe they’ll uphold a classic dirty old man ruining a young girl for a less than complete BJ they can have the world that creates.
Professionally it was wrong.
Morally, it was wrong because he was married.
If you take away the fact that he was married, simply having sex with a young woman was not morally wrong. She was doing exactly what she wanted to do.
And I did say “barring a few exceptions”… the most powerful man in the world is surely one of them.
@Wudang
Lifting weights and martial arts is not an issue for me because I’ve been training since high school and still do to this day. As far as self development is concerned, I wouldn’t be who I am now if I didn’t go through the experiences that I had to deal with growing up that only a few can claim. I’m glad to be myself at this moment in my life and could care less if anybody makes fun of me. I definitely have no issue when it comes to my sense of confidence especially in regards to who I am as a person. But is it wrong for me to think that women do consider factors like sexual experience, religion, skin color, etc when it comes to pursuing an LTR that might possibly hinder me?
I’ll definitely check out that book you mentioned. Thanks for the recommendation.
He wants sex from her, and she wants sex from him. They trade sex for sex. That seems to meet golden rule standards to me.
This is a post-sexual revolution and post-feminist world. The old social contracts and rules are gone.
You’re not asking for the golden rule. You’re asking him to put her interests ahead of his… “take one for the team.” That would be admirable, but I don’t think he has to go that far to remain ethical.
Fortunately I never had to pay the mortgage. Although I did get a job as soon as I was of legal age.
Their argument was more about being accountable for my choices and not having the option of making excuses or blaming anyone else. And as I said, this was reinforced at my school, jobs, etc.
As far as getting through college and grad school: scholarships, assistantships, and loans. Pretty standard.
@Jimmy
I’ll go further and say any team that wants that has to provide something to people who are supposed to take one for it.
Right now we’re dealing with feminists complaining the men in Aurora who jumped in front of others are being celebrated as heroic men and leaving out women (none of whom did the same). Just a few months ago women were complaining about men pushing women out of the way as that cruise liner sank (and lots of us men wished they’d been wearing “this is a what a feminist looks like” shirts).
In a world where what ever men do is wrong how can people be surprised they decide to do what they enjoy the most. If you’re going to do the time you might as well do the crime.
“There is this book, _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by Ursula LeGuin. Sci-Fi. It describes a people whose gender morphs by the moon cycles– male one month, female the next. (It’s a fascinating book.)”
Sounds good, I’ll check it out. And I agree with all of the rest of what you wrote. Just because a bunch of horny dudes want to fuck them, either consensually or not, doesn’t make young women socially powerful. If anything it makes them socially vulnerable.
#533 -Herb
WHAT
That’s a joke, right?
It’s not a joke… T_T
I can’t be a feminist. What’s the other word… masculist?
@Sai
http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-07-25/the-soapbox-the-aurora-shooting-the-myth-of-mens-obligation-to-be-heroes/
But she really seals the deal with this one:
See, all men are the same and no need to encourage them to be heroic or value those who are. I mean, who knows if another time they wouldn’t have been just like the badboy the one girl had a couple of kids with Note, from what I can find out the men in question did not pass their genes, much less values and virtues, into the next generation. The women hadn’t deemed them worthy yet, but the badboy type who ran away. Don’t worry ladies, he’s already passed his on twice.
@Andrew Tim Tebow is one of the most desired athletes and is a virgin. Why is he desired? Because he’s a take-charge, sexy, virtuous star athlete (even if his passing skills are suspect). He’s a classic example of the “virtuous alpha.” He doesn’t apologize for being a virgin and has a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. This attitude is what should be emulated, IMO.
As others have said many women assume that nearly ALL men want to get laid whenever they can and so they’re interpreting the voluntary virgin as if he were an involuntary virgin. Since this is the assumed point of view you will have to internally be completely mentally strong about your beliefs and choices so that when the moment comes you’re frame of mind is strong enough to make her realize that you’re a virgin because of strength, not because of weakness. You need to really believe and know that you’re sexy and will please your future woman when the time comes but that you are waiting to find the right girl who is lucky enough to have you. Any kind of “wimpy” wondering whether the girl will accept you or find you sexy or want to be with you (and especially transmitting that through body language or speech) will make it more likely for her to put you back in the assumed “guy who can’t get laid because he’s not attractive enough” category. Once again, Tim Tebow is certainly not in this category.
Are you looking for a fellow virgin? If so, then things are probably easier. If not, then I would wait for the right moment to reveal that you’re a virgin. Are you set on waiting til marriage or only until you find the right one and are in a committed relationship? I can see that some women who would not want to be in an LTR w/o sex but there are many who would if they’re attracted to you strongly enough.
So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.
Somewhat related, I don’t drink but I have gone out with or dated lots of women who drink. There were a couple gf’s that wanted to get me to drink, not in a bastardly way, but more out of a thinking it would make me enjoy life more. I never gave in and just teased them that they were trying to get me drunk so they could take advantage of me. Overall, I think the man’s frame of mind and overall attractiveness can overcome some of these other issues. Of course, there are some women for whom a non-drinker or a no-sex-until-marriage man would be a no go no matter how attractive he is. If you are more of the type that is simply waiting to be in an LTR before sex then the no sex thing in the relationship before marriage is moot and many women will be glad you’re not a manwhore, as long as you’re sufficiently attractive and confident to make her fall in love with you.
Good luck and feel free to ask or clarify anything.
Andrew, you’re straightedge? Meaning you don’t drink or use drugs either? Cool. I don’t drink or use recreational drugs in college either. I thought I was the only person who thought that way.
Wherein comes an answer to your dilemma. Don’
For nearly a decade I have said the most dangerous thing in the world are unattached men. We have no long term future (ie, beyond our death) to care about and no one. Even if the majority of us won’t use that freedom to abuse others we have no reason to protect women from the minority. We have plenty of reasons not to protect women from them.
Most governments do know this hence the crisis in countries like China and/o India where the males have no females to pair bond. Our times are creating a perfect storm of future chaos with the OOW epidemy, the divorces and the growing numbers of men leaving out the dating scene for good. The prediction of two classes severely separated is looking more and more plausible by the minute.
If you’re going to do the time you might as well do the crime.
“In for a pound, in for a penny”
Sorry, my post got cut off.
I meant don’t tell girls you are a virgin. Tell them you are straight edge and that straight edge extends to sex. It will attract more girls.
Ex.
Convo 1
Girl: ” I’d like to get to know you better” (flirts with her eyes)
You: “Um, I’m a virgin and I only want to have sex with someone I love.”
Convo 2
Girl: I’d like to get to know you better ( eye-flirt)
You: I’m straightedge. I don’t do hookups.
Girl: What is that?
You: Check it up/ ( you can neg her a bit here)
Kiss her on the cheek ( sexually escalate)
then say “bye”
Here’s why convo 2 works better than convo one. In the first convo you act insecure about your lack of sex. You say um, you look down and you give a classic reason to defer from sex , “I want a real relationship.”
In convo 2, you own your virginity and make it sexy. Instead of just being a virgin, you are “straight edge”, it’s part of a movement, it’s different, it’s mysterious, and she knows nothing about it. You gain dominance, make her look inadequate/slutty. You force her to chase you instead of the other way round. You then kiss her, ( sexually escalation) , so she knows the sex can happen and then walk away leaving her full of questions. So, maybe I’m wrong, you can work this virginity angle, but it’s all in the framing. However you cannot wait until marriage, but you could probably wait till you find a girl you love.
I had no idea there was a “straight edge” movement. I’ll have about 3 drinks a year, and congratulate those who have even less and don’t feel uncool. (Drugs… no. I have known too many cops and don’t wish to see their ugly sides.)
#536 -Herb
…It looks like the men’s movement is going to have a new supporter. This is insane.
@Andrew
Based on your strong sense of self and comfort in your own skin, I think you can pull off being a virgin with the right girl. Avoid sluts and seek a woman who is a virgin herself, or at least very inexperienced sexually. As for religion and skin color, that’s a matter of personal taste and individual attraction triggers.
I would argue that his contributing to her issues, whether it is a matter of self-loathing, PTSD as a result of abuse, bad family life, whatever – is not in his best interest unless he lacks empathy. I feel that it is in my best interest not to take advantage of someone weaker, less intelligent, or less sane than myself, because when I have, I’ve felt really crappy about it. It’s a character issue, and one’s view will depend entirely on what one believes constitutes good character.
I do find it surprising that an aggressively Christian commenter is the subject of this debate, but I’ll leave this to the philosophers. It creeps me out, that’s the bottom line, but I’m only speaking for myself.
How is not having sex with a teenager taking one for the team? When Desi said this I thought he was referring to the “team” of Christian men.
There were men who knocked grandmas over on that ship. They ran roughshod over everyone smaller in an “every man for himself” melee. It was chaos, and the actions of those men increased the risk of everyone by interrupting what should have been an orderly process. The captain was among the offenders. They were bullies, plain and simple.
@Andrew, I went back and read that you’re not waiting until marriage but just waiting until you find the right one for an LTR. That means that you’ll have a wider range of women to choose from.
@Susan
I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying from a personal and philosophical standpoint.
My main objection was to the idea that following through would make him some kind of predator or creep.
Susan – “Then why are you constantly exhorting me to write posts for other people’s foolish daughters?”
Isn’t it obvious? Because many of them don’t have fathers that give a shit about them, and as a man I cannot have these “talks” with any young girls without risking accusations of improper behavior. Plus, I have two boys as well, and I’d prefer they have a large group of well adjusted young women to choose from.
That being said, my primary concern will always be my children.
@Herb
“I have come to have one answer to people who use my values to demand I defend them from the consequences of their choices while they spit upon me:
“ Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
I will not be torn to pieces for the benefit of people who rejected me and what I hold dear. I will stand apart, as they required, and leave them in peace.”
======
Herb, you have been really, really hurt by a variety of forces. I am truly sorry for the pain you have experienced and what you have suffered.
That plus, your language and imagery is so violent (“torn to pieces” “spit upon me”) and directed so broadly at groups of feminists and “feral children” that I think we are doing more harm than good in exchanging viewpoints. It’s not worth it– life is short.
Peace, Herb–
@Just a thought
Yes. Never drank, never smoked, and never did drugs. xTrueTilDeathx.
Technically Straight Edge does extend to sex. I just wasn’t sure if you were aware of that.
I appreciate the advice. I’ll give it some thought. I must say the second conversation sounds bold.
@Sai
Yes, there is a straight edge movement which started in the late 70s and early 80s and was and still is associated with hardcore punk music.
@Susan Walsh
You’re right and I’ve always known that I needed to find the right girl. Like I said before to someone else earlier in the thread is that I have my work cut out and I’ve always known that it’s going to be tough.
@HanSolo
I’m not a Tebow hater, but I kind of disagree a little bit with what you said. Yes I’m not waiting until marriage. I use to think that when I was a Christian, but my views have obviously changed. However, I’m not in any rush to give it up anytime soon. I still feel skeptical about the range of choices of women though. Ideally, yes I do want to be with a virgin, but I already acknowledge the reality of how people approach sex and relationships in this day and age. So I’ve opened myself up to the possibility of dating a non-virgin. It just depends if she is the right one for me whether she’s a virgin or not.
“So, basically, internalize your own worth and truly believe that you’re being a virgin out of a strong personal decision and because you’re selective regarding which woman will get to have you sexually.”
I’ve already stated something to that effect on a couple of posts, so that’s not even an issue with me at all. I just wanted to get some perspective on why and how there’s such a strong, negative connotation attached to virgins among other things and better understand myself even more. That’s why I kept asking questions and wanted to know. I’ve gotten answers especially from here, but I guess that just makes me naïve.
“even if his passing skills are suspect”
Ha! He’ll be alright. I’m interested to see how it plays out with Sanchez this coming season.
@Susan
“I do find it surprising that an aggressively Christian commenter is the subject of this debate, but I’ll leave this to the philosophers. It creeps me out, that’s the bottom line, but I’m only speaking for myself.”
==========
Yeah, I found interesting, too! As I mentioned: scripturally, doctrinally, culturally and avatar-ily, there is NO supportable evidence for his position and almost unlimited evidence against it. This is a hamster running at the speed of light!
Typically, a church elder (or pastor/priest) is supposed to step in and say why the rules are there. But I guess not too many professional theologians hanging out on the thread today!
Second thought: He actually would be able to find “kindred spirits,” especially among FLDS (polygamous fundamentalist Mormons) and groups like YFZ (Yearning For Zion), and people like Warren Jeffs and Tom Green.
And these men would be OK with *multiple* teenage/middle-age man pairings, as long as Des would make her one of his wives.
Obviously, the people who would support this kind of thing are very fringe. And for a good reason. (Jon Krakauer’s _Under the Banner of Heaven_ is a pretty fascinating book about this, BTW.)
@Jackie
It is interesting the “tear you to pieces” disturbs you. After all it is from the Sermon on the Mount.
@Andrew
It will be interesting to see how Sanchez does. He seems like he can be rattled and then that affects his game a lot. Tebow is a good athlete but really doesn’t have great QB passing skills. We’ll see. I think both were drafted higher than they should have been but F-ing up the draft is what keeps a lot of teams down. But, you do have to hand it to Tebow with Denver, he found a way to win and get them to the playoffs.
I wasn’t clear on what you disagreed about.
That’s cool that you’re really solid in your decision and at peace about it. What are your thoughts on what to do going forward? I think that since you are internally solid and are only waiting to find the right one for sex that you shouldn’t have too much problem with other virgins and looking-for-true-love type of girls.
@Andrew
I meant to say that you are waiting to find the right one for an LTR before having sex and not until marriage.
Susan,
“aggressively Christian commenter”
Whatever.
Your consistent, and, yes, aggressive misreading of my comments has again exhausted my patience. BTW, she’s not with hipster drummers, she’s with dipshit fratboy types, and if they’re not using each other with no emotional connection on a regular basis, they’d be the rare exception.
Good luck with the blog.
And Jackie, you’re the best. Thanks for the moral support – I was needing it.
Also, I’m backing off the hookup route. I still go out, get numbers if I feel so inclined (only if I intend to set something up) and have a good time, but I’m calming down because I think it’ll be better for a number of reasons. The situation I described is actually the third time in the past 3 months where I’ve turned down a presumed ONS, and I’m completely fine with that.
Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.
Jason,
Just curious, do you think it helps that you sort of “got it out of your system” so to speak in order to be able to be at this point. In other words, do you think you would have been able to pass up the 3 ONS as easily without your past “hookups and douchebaggery”.
“Like I’ve stated before, I’ll expect any future gf to be completely honest with me, and I’ll be completely honest about my past too (even if it might be a detriment to a ‘good girl’). I can’t change all of my hookups and douchebaggery, but at least I’ll be able to be honest when I say that I’ve stopped a lot of that behavior for a while now.”
Reformed slut? What a catch!
“I had no idea there was a “straight edge” movement. ”
There’s not. It came and went in the late 80s-early 90s when half of them joined some religious cult, I think it was the Hare Krishnas IIRC.
I will point out one thing.
Desiderius did not try to escalate or pursue this woman. He simply made a sexual comment to a girl. If I was penalized for every sexual comment I made to a guy, I’m sure I would be found wanting too.
After all, I object to 50 shades of gray, not because it’s porn, but because it’s pretty bad porn. I mean seriously what kind of erotica forces you to wait like 50-100 pages before the sex? And what kind of Erotica has a name like 50 shades of gray? Why is there a picture of a tie on the cover? Where’s the naked man?
Desiderius didn’t do anything. He thought about it. Let’s not police thought crimes here.
That said, I disagree with the core philosophy among PUA gamers that all the SMP issues are “someone else’s problem”
1. Alphas create more feminists. Alphas who pump and dump girls just convince some women that all men are evil, they become left-wing feminists and convince more women to hate men. Alphas will eventually inherit a world where no woman trusts any men and all girls have children out of wedlock. This society will have higher male crime and be incredibly dangerous for young men.
2. Every alpha created is a new feminazi born.
3. We as a culture do not exist in a vacuum, consequences for our actions exist.
Andrew,
I hope you find the girl you are looking for and I hope she loves you as much as you love her.
Jackie, reading your story just made me want to hug you. I don’t know how you came back from that. Personally, I would bitterly hate all men if I had the experience you described to me. I am wishing you well.
“Follow Ians advice and limit masturbation, A LOT. It is common finding among a subgroup of PUAs that have experimented with this that it does help a lot and my own experience confirms this. Limiting it builds up some sort of hormonal charge that gives you more energy and vitality, paradoxically gives you a more sexual vibe, makes you a lot less needy, more confident, more relaxed++”
Sounds like some sort of ancient teaching.
The week before our original wedding day, I got a 2am phonecall. I had left a message (not a text) that said, I love you. The girl he was having sex with intercepted it in the middle of the night, to tell me she was with him and wearing his shirt.
Yikes, that’s horrible, Jackie. What a story! OTOH, as heartbreaking as it was, you’ve down a really good job of putting things back together and will, I have no doubt, find a much better man.
I was crushed when I broke up with my N and felt pretty sure that I’d never marry, but believe me I’m thrilled now that I dodged that bullet.
I’m not saying all 40+ year old guys need to go after 18 year old girls… but I’m saying they shouldn’t feel the least bit ashamed for being attracted to them,
Agreed. It’s natural to feel attracted to the young and pretty.
and shouldn’t be the least bit ashamed for taking action if the option is presented by another consenting adult.
It may well be legal, but the vast difference in life experience leaves a lot of room for predation, IMO
@Ted D
And yet you support a man your age having sex with them without considering it improper behavior.
In that case, you should harshly judge a society that has nothing to say about teenagers having sex with middle aged men.
“Reformed slut? What a catch!”
If women truly want the “double standard” to go away they need to stop knowingly and happily [to the point of pride] committing to such sluts
@Desiderius
You painted yourself into a corner on that one. I don’t really believe you ever expected that lifeguard to be a sexual conquest, but you wanted to play bad boy on the internet.
Please point out any misreading on my part. I did nothing more than reprint the convo and evaluate it at face value.
You can’t know that unless you’ve taken an inappropriate interest in the personal life of this lifeguard.
Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!
Not going to happen in my generation or even the next. Maybe two generations from now a change could take place, but the movement would have to gain traction very soon.
@Just a thought
We can debate the appropriateness of that, but I stated the same thing earlier in the thread. He didn’t take action. I really don’t believe he intended to. Here are Desi’s remarks on the matter.
It’s been my general practice not to pursue this kind of thing, but I’m not so sure any more that that is right.
…I’m considering pursuing it because my lack of interest in casual sex (and consequent lack of understanding re: how to play the game to get there) has left me at a disadvantage with women I would be interested in pursuing relationships with.
Women get very worried by an attractive man who’s game isn’t tight. The only way to tighten one’s game is practice. Why exactly is practicing with a sexually active 18-year-old who came on to me so wrong?
Not a rhetorical question.
Obviously, he she were asking me for advice, I’d tell her not to be sexually active at all, but given that she’s already made the choice, is it wrong for me to be (one of) the ones she’s active with?
I’ve always assumed it is, but I’m having doubts.
Jackie: “WHOA. Are you suggesting using (i.e. having sex with) a teenager for “practice”?
This is seriously not cool and I hope you are joking.
I thought there was one standard for Christians regarding fornication. I really hope I am misunderstanding you, Des. Please correct my misapprehension.”
I’m asking you to explain to me why it is wrong, if pre-marital sex is not per se, given her experience and agency.
I haven’t been entirely serious on this thread (certainly not nearing perfection), but I never made that claim, seriously or otherwise. I was asking for reasons against it. I’ve taken a lot for the team over a lifetime — my endurance is wearing thin.
My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.
That’s the record, and it can speak for itself. I don’t like debating this one bit, and only address it because I am responsible for the content on this blog. I’ll drop it here.
Mike C,
Yes and no. Very early on, when I was more idealistic, I would have been able to pass up on these opportunities, with the catch being that I was much less likely to have them presented to me. During later phases, no way I was passing up on these, because the girls were attractive and I felt I needed to gain this experience.
Now, I’m fine with it, because my value is high, is getting even higher, and I have internalized the skills needed to get these opportunities. Simply ‘knowing’ it was there for the taking is good enough for me right now. One caveat is that these girls, while all being objectively 7+, were not my type where I’d run head first into a wall just to stop thinking about them naked (I love dark hair like Italian or Asian, and either fit or petite. I’m dirty blonde/blue and have very limited attraction to girls with similar traits, for whatever reason). If that situation were to come up it would be difficult for me not to go through with it, as I understand that an initial hookup makes a connection infinitely more possible, assuming other areas match up.
“Not going to happen in my generation or even the next. Maybe two generations from now a change could take place, but the movement would have to gain traction very soon.”
Well then, they only have themselves to blame for the the creation and maintenance of this so-called “double standard.” Yet, ironically, it is solely women who complain about it.
To add on to the 18yo discussion, while it is not legally wrong, I think it is in a moral grey area as an 18yo in this situation most likely has serious emotional issues. I’m not too far removed from college and 18yos, and in my time I can think of maybe one girl who I would consider mature enough to relate to a much older man beyond a physical level.
I know if I ever met a girl a bit younger than me and she told me about dating much older men, it would raise a huge red flag and I’d probably run for the hills.
“mature enough to relate to a much older man beyond a physical level.”
and that is typically the limit of the relationship. If nothing long term is contemplated – young dick, older dick…how is it relevant?
@ HanSolo
Excellent post!
Heaven help me, I’m quoting Abbott
I wonder how often sex has been more than that historically. I’m convinced 99% of it in the modern world is nothing more than bumping uglies. That was the whole point of the sexual revolution: “sex is fun, everyone should have fun sex, and if you aren’t down for just fun sex you’re a prude at best and oppressive at worst.”
In that environment, how does the inability to go beyond the physical matter. Unless, of course, you’re a prude who think people put more emphasis on emotional dimensions of sex than they admit, especially women.
Saying women use sex to bond may be accurate, but it is also socially frowned upon. Man is a social animal so don’t expect that to be effective. Especially on men who are called in the double bind of wrong if they respect women and wrong if they don’t. If they’re “wrong” both ways expect more and more to be “wrong” in the way most enjoyable to them.
How listening to the typical 18 year old talk is enjoyable is beyond me but, as I’m so often reminded, I’m not supposed to judge.
@Sassy
Thanks. Here’s a little Tebow eye candy for you Sassy, running in the rain! lol
http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2012/07/tim_tebow_laughs_off_attention.html
@ HanSolo
Haha! Thanks for the link.
I’m not really attracted to Tim Tebow, but I can’t deny the appeal he has to other women. My sister is absolutely gaga over him, and I’ve heard plenty of other women speaking favorably about him. He’s not really my cup of tea though.
I’ll share that link with my sister though. She’ll appreciate it for sure.
LMAO
Holy shit Sassy! Not even Tim Tebow is good enough?
Just messin’ with ya! LOL
@ Hansolo
It’s cool.
I’m like a man in the sense that I place a good deal of importance on the physical appearance of my partner. Tim Tebow has an okay body (I’m not really a fan of men with a lot of muscles), but I’m not attracted to his face.
My sister thinks he is the cat’s meow though.
@Sassy
No problem with you not being attracted. I was just teasing. lol
@SW
Isn’t a guy’s N being low (or zero) being “bad” mostly an exaggerated stereotype? I mean, just looking at the raw data, assuming he and the girl are on Team R, and there’s some initial attraction…
Susan,
“How is not having sex with a teenager taking one for the team? When Desi said this I thought he was referring to the “team” of Christian men.”
No, it’s the team of which we’re both a part. I had a great relationship with a very mature 18-yr-old high school grad when I was 25 – we met via starring together in a community theater production of R&H’s Cinderella. Made sure to keep it in my pants the whole time, but we were pretty crazy about each other. She had big college plans so I told her to forget about me and chase her dreams.
That kind of taking one for the team. Two things about this situation threw me – that it reminded me of that relationship was one of them.
I will be leaving for awhile as I won’t have easy internet access due to the move, but my propensity to storm off in a huff is getting more and more embarrassing. Cortisol spike?
“My own sense is that Desi was playing devil’s advocate, that he was flattered to be singled out for a chat by this young girl, and that he was tempted to pursue it. I do not believe he came close to doing so.”
Can’t say that any of that is entirely false. I was closer to action than I should have been or you imagine, but the mention of Col. Brandon put the quick kibosh on that. The biggest thing that threw me off was that here was an attractive female who actually TOOK SOME INITIATIVE.
That was what was so rare about this case and made such an impression.
As for Devil’s Advocacy – absolutely guilty. Neither your moral system nor Jackie’s are particularly robust in answering the questions raised by this situation. Appeals to very shaky authority (Jackie) and ad hominem insinuations and misreading (you) are unlikely to make them more so, even if some of the insinuations do hit uncomfortably close to the mark.
Ironic that you imply that this sort of thing is rare in the same week you link to Roissy. On reflection, this girl is solidly MMC (as have been the many other examples of girl’s gone bizarre behavior I’ve been seeing) and Roissy’s tone has been changing, so maybe UMC young female behavior has actually changed.
If that’s the case, I’d better back way off that subject. Bad for business.
Susan,
“Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!”
I’ve haven’t often shown the capacity to take encouragement in stride rather than as a license to flood your blog with wild speculation, so you tend to shy away from that. What’s left then seems unduly contentious.
I’ll see what I can do about that.
@Megaman
Clearly. 40% of college students are virgins and 25% of seniors are, and those numbers are true for both sexes. Surely a virgin of one sex wouldn’t likely reject a virgin of the other, and might be expected to value that.
It shouldn’t be hard for Andrew to find a woman who qualifies, assuming he is swimming in the right pond. A virgin guy is not likely to cut a swath through the Tri Delt house, but I’m assuming few want that anyway, or are realistic about their odds of getting it.
@Desi
Ha, at least you can go away for a while! I embarrass myself regularly and I still have to show up.
As I said, I think you got caught in an online firestorm here – I truly have little doubt of your moral character. If I insinuated something that wasn’t accurate, I apologize. There was some armchair psychology there, for sure.
I certainly believe it’s natural for us to feel flattered when we receive attention. Nothing wrong with that. I also don’t believe in policing anyone’s thoughts. People are entitled to their sexual fantasies and it’s their private business. I wanted to make clear that I did not judge you for anything you did.
@HanSolo
I knew what you meant. I was impressed that he got them to the playoffs. I find it hilarious how unhappy all the Tebow haters were at his accomplishment during the playoffs, especially for a man of his character. He just needs time to grow as a player in the NFL. If he wasn’t a virgin and a devout Christian, I think Tim Tebow would still be that desired guy for women. I think those two factors sets him apart from a guy like Tom Brady and generates more positive interest. I agree with the person here that said about generating positive interest from women, if a guy is attractive enough and still a virgin. I think that same logic can be applied to women, especially if she’s really attractive.
“you shouldn’t have too much problem with other virgins and looking-for-true-love type of girls”
I’m not so sure about that. To me, it seems like there’s a low percentage of that. Even if I found someone who is a virgin and/or is looking for true love, I also consider women’s personal taste like race, religion, personality, lifestyle, etc. As far as going forward, I’m not sure. I probably need to think about it more. I’ll probably take most people’s advice here and keep my virginity to myself. I can feel the negative vibe against virginity by most. I feel like an idiot now for putting myself out here. I guess I made a big mistake of mentioning my virginity.
@Just a Thought
Thanks. We’ll see.
“I don’t think that a man needs to have sexual experience to be successful with women. It may help to foster attraction in your run-of-the-mill type of woman, but I highly doubt that it’s the type of woman you want to end up with in the long run.”
If by run of the mill you mean average, well most of us are average people.
@Andrew
I’m neither a Tebow hater nor lover but it was fascinating to see all the comebacks and making the playoffs. There’s no denying that he has a ton of heart and grit and is a good athlete and leader. I think with time he may be able to improve his throwing. Just read an article by Jaws about how his throwing when just throwing has improved but reverts back to worse technique in more gamelike practice settings. Anyway, we’ll see what happens in a month or so and it will be interesting.
I agree with your statement that “if he wasn’t a virgin and a devout Christian, I think Tim Tebow would still be that desired guy for women” because he has the underlying attributes that make him attractive to women.
Okay, I see your point, wondering how many women there are out there really looking for true love. I have to agree with that largely since it seems like many women today (not all, maybe not most but certainly enough to have a huge effect on the market) have a much more “masculine” attitude and think romantic behaviour is wimpy. They have taken on the attitudes that they claim exist in men (but really only in the player types who grab their attention–apex fallacy). As we saw in comparing the men’s and women’s surveys here, the women surveyed are less interested in LTR’s (although I do think the sample of women was highly skewed to more pro-feminist and liberal sample than you would see across the whole country–notice the overwhelming approval of Obama and antipathy to Romney in some of the politically-oriented questions; but I think the attitude shown here are representative of a lot of the women in more liberal areas).
As someone who at heart really wants a deep and romantic relationship I have learned that I have to really hold that back until I see the women showing more interest. I think that part of this is just damn good advice, even if most of the women out there were more romantic, since you (generic you, not you, Andrew) need time to really get to know their character before they are worthy of such deep feelings and before you can legitimately say that you love them and aren’t just infatuated. But on the other hand a good percentage of women in their 20′s and even early 30′s just aren’t romantic–it’s like feminism, entitlement and the heartbreak of getting pumped and dumped by players and/or out-of-their-league men has beaten it out of them–and they’ve adopted the hardened attitudes of them men they both want and despise. Interestingly enough, I have done online dating here and in Brazil, when I lived there for 6 months and the difference in what the girls write in their profiles and what they’re looking for is amazing. The American girls from 20-30 go on about how they’re sarcastic, ball-busting and if you can’t take it then get out of the kitchen, and that they’re just looking for someone they can do stuff with (no problem there). Many ask where all the real men are. Very little, but sometimes some, “feminine” content in their profiles. After 30 they start to say stuff about how they’re looking for someone serious. Meanwhile, in the Brazilian profiles it was very much so looking for a serious relationship, for love, etc. And, parenthetically, a significantly higher percentage of the Brazilian men are players (and damn, many of them are smooth and charming) and so there’s a combination of the players being rewarded by women saying they want LTR’s but also there is a big female market of unmet romantic LTR’s.
Now, having said that, there still are good and/or romantic women in the US but we have to be much more careful about how we go about finding them and interacting with them so that we can elicit out the sweet, feminine, perhaps truer side of them that’s hiding behind the bitch-shield that is often put up. Too much of a bitch-shield though and it’s not worth it and you have to wonder whether it’s a shield or the core of their being. I think bitchiness is on a spectrum–maybe 20% are really sweet, nice with no bitch shield at all, then 20% (10%?) are bitches at heart and the other 60% are for the most part good women but with increasing amounts of bitchiness/bitch-shieldiness as you move from the sweet side of the spectrum to the other end and that increasingly makes them women we should avoid. (These numbers are just very rough approximations) Same is true of guys on the asshole/jerk spectrum. Some % (10-20%?) of men are the assholes that women (rightfully) bemoan, 20% are admirable and ~60% are probably relatively decent at heart but gradually realizing that they’re getting shafted and start putting up the asshole/jerk/angry shield in varying degrees. (Are men putting up more of an asshole-shield in a belated reaction to the failed arms-reduction talks? Probably. “If you’re not going to dismantle your nuclear bitch/only-responding-to-player ICBMs then we’re going to deploy our own arsenal of nuclear asshole/jerk/player ICBMs”)
FWIW I often feel like an idiot after I put myself out in certain situations. You are the only one who knows how you feel and it can certainly feel a bit awkward or disheartening to really open up but I hope that you don’t feel like an idiot. I think that the responses here have been a mix of outright sympathy, practical advice and tough love. I don’t think you made a big mistake about mentioning your virginity and it brought out some interesting discussion.
I was a voluntary religious virgin for a long time and when I left the church and started dating outside of my former religion I remember how I didn’t want to tell anyone that I was. I had a lot of hang-ups and doubts about sex–not that sex was dirty but more if I could perform under pressure and if I was big enough–lol–and such. I dated a girl and was actually extremely open with her about everything–all my fears and doubts, yeah maybe it was revealing too much to her in hindsight but she actually didn’t think less of me because she really liked me for me and wasn’t an idiot and realized where I was coming from. I’ll be forever grateful to her because of her accepting and compassionate nature I overcame 99% of my doubts and hang-ups about my sexual ability. Relating this to the bitch shield she did have one (and for some good reasons IMO) but for whatever reasons I was able to disarm the BS and deal with her more inner self.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on a lot but I hope you don’t feel like an idiot and that you keep commenting as you have thoughts, insights or questions. I think you’ll get useful responses for the most part and also contribute useful things to the other readers, most of whom are lurkers.
@Desiderius
Your experience made me remember something somewhat similar that happened to me. This was back in my religious days when I was still a virgin. I helped out with this family joining our church and one of the girls (18 y/o and 10 years younger than me) was really hot (usually a 9 but could get up to a 9.5 when she slimmed down and down to an 8 when she chubbed up a bit). I rarely get attention from hot women but she really liked me. I kept in touch with them from time to time to see how they were doing in life and with the church.
Well, one time she asked me if I wanted to play tennis and the whole tense-stomach, OMG, shallow breathing, can’t-believe-a-really-hot-girl is wanting to do something with me reaction kicked in and the angelic and diabolic Fred Flinstones appeared on my shoulders and started to persuade. Diabolic: she’s hot, you’ll never get another woman this hot, go out with her you idiot! lol Angelic: she’s too young and think of what people at church would think if they found out. My hamster got into the negotiations and found an adequate compromise and so I told her: bring your older sister and all 3 of us can play tennis. She readily agreed. My conscious was relieved, my libido didn’t feel castrated and my hamster told me I was just hanging out with the 2 girls to help them in their spiritual lives.
So, tennis time comes and we meet up but there’s no sister to be seen. “Oh, she couldn’t make it.” Sly girl! lol I was like, “Oh well, we can play, I guess.” I was both feeling excited and guilty and hoping that we didn’t come across any fellow congregation members that would hand me over to the creeper inquisition! We played without incident or discovery.
Fast forward to another moment and she was going away for quite a while. Up to this point it had been a platonic friendship, at least in actions if not in certain conscious or subconscious intentions. We met at a church activity and talked for a bit. We went for a walk and sat down in a park by the river. She looked at me with the most obvious body language I have ever seen that screamed the words into my mind, “well, are you going to fucking kiss me or what?” (And I did feel guilty for think the word ‘fuck’ and quickly prayed for forgiveness.)
The Fred Flinstone angels and devils were fighting furiously and I was nervous as hell, torn between lust and propriety. I meekly surrendered to her devouring demands and was shocked as she completely stuck her tongue into my mouth and “ravished” me. I thought, “holy shit, she’s way more experienced than I am.” This time though I didn’t think to feel guilty about thinking the word ‘shit’. I may have been 10 years older but in terms of experience she was the expert and I was the novice.
Moving forward, she was gone for a several months and then came back. During her absence I was deathly afraid that she would blab and that I would be labelled a pervert. When she came back we went out a couple of times. She told me I was such a nerd. I took it as a mild insult but she insisted that that was why she really liked me. She told me she wanted to be with me forever. For my birthday she took me out to dinner (and paid–lol) and gave me a nice tie and a polo dress shirt.
She was a bit rebellious relative to the strict church norms and in spite of my carnal fall into kissing her (but nothing beyond that) was quite the straight arrow. Between my reservations about her youth and her rebelliousness I couldn’t allow my heart to really fall for her or date her seriously.
Time went on, she married someone else about my same age and eventually I ended up leaving the church (a-whole-nother story). Ironic and a bit sad to me that I held her slight rebelliousness and her age against her and then several years later outright left the church while she settled down into a stable marriage.
I look back and really regret not dating her more and giving her a serious chance. On days when I feel alone I sometimes think back to what could have been and that the baby she had could have been mine. Life went on and I dated other girls after and will in the future–someday, I’ll find the right one and not be so picky in some ways so as to exclude good or even awesome girls–but that experience has really stuck in my mind.
Anyway, Desiderius, just sending a bit of cyber-empathy your way. Cheers.
And no, I’m not saying he should or shouldn’t go date that girl. Just sharing a slightly related experience that his made me think of.
589 HanSolo August 2, 2012 at 10:23 pm is a perfect example of how religion can mess up the human mind.
@Des (555)
Hey Des,
You are most welcome!
Susan is right– I *was* much harder on you than she. So I appreciate your goodwill in accepting my feedback!
(FYI: It’s because, like Susan is harder on the younger women, I am harder on fellow religious people. There is some Presby woman out there in her 20s or 30s who is going to want to see you as this dashing figure she can truly feel justified in devoting herself to. Don’t let her down by, Des!)
I actually was thinking about your situation today: Have you considered asking any of your friends’ wives to set you up with someone great?
I ask because, if the love of _Emma_ and “Clueless” is not enough of a clue, women REALLY like matchmaking. My own parents met on a blind date that was set up by their friends in church. The rest was history!
Seriously, think about it, Des.
=========
My other thought was this:
Haley’s Halo is a blog that mentions how the Christian single population is really under-valued and under-ministered to. Basically, if you haven’t met someone in college, you’re really on your own. (In my experience.) And after telling you DON’T DON’T DON’T for so many years, there is no way for them to acknowledge how to get to DO.
Do they think we just “don’t count” after a certain point? Not sure. All I know if that there needs to be far more moral support for us singles. We are wandering in the desert, without a Moses to lead us and not even a little bit of manna from heaven.
SW
The difficulty for Mr. Andrew will be in finding an all-around *compatible* female, which isn’t totally dependent upon her N. But the numbers are definitely in his favor. Young women (age 20-29) who report 0-3 partners is significant, somewhere around 50%. I don’t see them automatically disqualifying him, either. Not to beat a dead horse, but that stat alone gets to the heart of your recent debate over the prevalence of “slutty” behavior.
@Rice n Beans
In my case it kept me protected from a lot of dangers but it also kept me too suppressed. I’m still spiritual but for me there was too much of an underlying tribal nature at church and the teachings that I tried to strictly follow were too strict. Ironically, I think if I had been less committed to the church and following everything that I would have been able to deal with just setting aside the stuff that didn’t uplift me and follow what did.
Any kind of excessively dogmatic thought, whether religious or secular, is damaging and reveals human natures underlying tendency to band into tribes with prescribed thoughts and behaviours, violation of which risks banishment. Ironically, devout religious people in the western world are often the ones who are banished from the tribe of PC progressives.
@Just A Thought
Hi JaT,
Thanks for the well-wishes, I can always use hugs!
“Personally, I would bitterly hate all men if I had the experience you described to me”
Just a Thought, let me tell you something: He doesn’t get that kind of power over me.
*I* control the frame.
*I* decide the narrative.
*I* own the story!
NOT HIM.
I am the author of my experience. And I choose “champion” not “chumpette.” Because if people think I am going to get all Havisham-ed up in their grill, they have another thing coming!
Definitely I am more judicious and prudent, but you know what? I know my true worth, under pressure I can be like a diamond. Unbreakable. In the face of crisis, you see someone’s character. In some ways, it is very reassuring; I know that in crisis I can be Gibraltar.
Anyway, thanks again for the kind words. I really believe that my story will have a happy ending.
@J
“Yikes, that’s horrible, Jackie. What a story! OTOH, as heartbreaking as it was, you’ve down a really good job of putting things back together and will, I have no doubt, find a much better man.”
======
Thanks, J– you’re cool! I appreciate the good wishes!
PS: I am a weirdo who uses stuff like that to *drive* me. WHen I found myself getting angry, I put in awesome mileage on my running.
#TeamLemonsIntoLemonade
@Susan
“Ha! Jackie is the best, but she was much harder on you than I was. Double standard!!!”
======
Hahaha!
Like I said earlier, you are tougher on the young women; I am tougher on the religious people. Policing our own, so to speak.
BTW, this is *mild* compared to the “modesty lectures” that are given to MANY (all?) young women in religion class. We are told not to have a hemline too high or a neckline too low (two fingers’ width below the collarbone was the max). Lest we lead men into temptation and SIN!
(I should say, I was busted so many times for this. Bah! I remember one of ladies who was busting my chops [or rather, hemline!] said, I had a student like you once. I asked her, Why do you dress the way you do? The student answered, Because I think the body is a beautiful thing.
Personally, I’d like to think that God would be agreeing with that! I don’t know why a bunch of old crows would want to swaddle us in sacklike garb.)
(#IAmSorry
#PenanceToMyModestyTeachers
#ItsHardToBeGood)
@Des
” I was closer to action than I should have been or you imagine, but the mention of Col. Brandon put the quick kibosh on that.”
=========
Jane Austen saves the day! Is there *anything* those books can’t do?!
#TeamAusten4Lyfe
#AintNoPartyLikeAnAustenParty
Neither your moral system nor Jackie’s are particularly robust in answering the questions raised by this situation. Appeals to very shaky authority (Jackie)
==============
Aw, Des! C’mon– my scripture knowledge was LEGIT!
@Jackie
Pun intended? LMAO
You used the word ‘bust’ twice!
lol
The young women at our church were told to dress modestly lest they become pornography for the young men.
@HanSolo
Ooops!
:blush:
By the way, Han, I was reading your story above– I think you are *awesome*! I’m so sorry your church was so constricting to you. I think people who are conscientious sometimes suffer more, since religions/churches come down SO hard on certain things.
Earlier, Ted D and I were talking– he said he wanted to scare women into being good. It reminded me of when my religion teachers wanted to scare me into being good. All it did was paralyze me to the point of inaction– I didn’t want God to zap me with a lightning bolt from the sky!
So hearing your viewpoint really helps me understand some of the Christian men I’ve dated. (Like they are going to be scorched if they touch me, think they are unattracted to me, since the escalation is about the speed of molasses.)
Here is hoping that Master Yoda or Chewie can help you find the Princess Leia. And that we will dance with the Ewoks at your wedding in the forest some day!
Oh, and that reminds me of Bust Must in Napoleon Dynamite!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASGt9BIj_Xo
Love that movie. Kip and La Fawnduh! Uncle Rico. Awesome scene at the end when Napoleon and Deborah implicitly finally get together and play tetherball to the great song, The Promise.
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