693»

When Pigs Fly

First, take a moment and look out the window. Do you see them? Their rotund pink bodies sailing through the air?

Heartiste has a brilliant new post,  When Beta Male Strategies Can WorkWhile I’ve long expressed an admiration for Roissy’s brilliance, powers of perception, and wordsmithing, this is the first time our missions have crossed paths. 

Beta male sexual market strategies are not always doomed to failure. They can work under certain conditions. The two primary scenarios in which the beta male strategy is workable (if not necessarily optimal) are:

1. As a “softening agent” to improve your attainability, or your “long term lover” potential, if your alpha male traits have pushed a woman too far into feeling unloved and unneeded.

2. As a self-advertisement for long term relationship suitability, given preexisting sufficiently compensatory alpha male traits.

Obviously, this advice will apply to men who are seeking more than a ONS – it’s geared to the man who enjoys the idea of falling in love or at least of introducing some emotion into the mix. 

Number one is a game corrective. Number two is a specific game strategy designed to screen out girls who would make bad long term relationship prospects, and attract women who are looking to settle down.

Female college students are very familiar with players running “false beta game.” These guys know they often need to act boyfriendy with the freshmen to get laid, so they say things like, “Whoa, dude, what’s happening between us right now is really a game changer.” Or, “I really like being around you, it’s like I don’t have to be a bro and shit.” Meanwhile, unaware betas (Roissy might say hapless) walk around with no clue that the most dominant guys on campus are instinctively using Strategy #1.

For my purposes, Strategy #2 is more applicable. Here Roissy is advocating a mix of alpha and beta traits for LTRs:

Note that the common denominator in all successful beta male mating strategies is the assumption of some degree of preexisting alpha male characteristics, or an already present alpha male dynamic within a relationship. Beta male strategies, in other words, are meant as adjuncts to alpha male, or high value male, game.

The order is important – a male must bring the dominance or alpha first, as it is the primary hurdle for female sexual attraction. The jerk acting like he wants to be your boyfriend (Only you can tame this beast into monogamy!) is going to fare much better with girls than the nice guy who clumsily delivers negs at the bar (“Are you sure you should be wearing horizontal stripes?”).

The reverse — adjunct alpha male strategies to complement low value beta male game — is hardly ever an effective strategy for attracting and bedding the women you want. But it can be a decent way of life for beta providers who wish to spice up their marriages as a preventative against wifely infidelity or bitchiness.

Nice nod to Athol there.   :)

In very unusual circumstances, an extreme form of beta male game — the loathsome male feminist orbiter — can occasionally redound in rare, ungainly and passionless sexual favors from the manipulative, flabby wymyn to whom this execrable species (hello hugo!) ingratiates himself.

(This last quote is provided solely as an example of Heartiste’s writing style, which never fails to strike its target.)

He goes on to give some examples of beta moves winning girlfriends back, and while I think the moves are generally more beta than he does (and that many women like beta traits more than he admits), he astutely points out why they work, including creativity, humor, and balls. Definitely worth a read.

The most dramatic move anyone ever made to get me back after a big fight was to break into my apartment while I was sleeping, deliver a love letter, and sneak back out without my knowing. We did get back together, so maybe it was the thug move that compensated for the abject apology. 

 

  • http://thepathtopassion.com Clay

    I agree that there is definitely something to the whole alpha/beta argument and that there are definitely correlations that can be drawn from looking at guys who are successful with women vs. those who aren’t…

    However, I believe that there has been far too much anxiety created in the minds of men about whether they are “alpha enough”–which in and of itself is a very beta mindset.

    I think instead of posturing or collapsing, there is a third way in which you can completely ignore the dynamic together and just be your own man… of course, a guy would need to let go of his own beta insecurities in order for this to work otherwise he may fall victim to believe that he’s “just being himself” while acting like a supplicating doormat.

    There’s a lot of inner game work that a guy needs to do to be confident in who he is to the point where he doesn’t have to put on a front to get girls. By letting go of the vanity of “being alpha enough” he can free himself from the whole neurotic game of trying to balance between two unhealthy extremes and become a truly attractive guy capable of having a meaningful interaction with a woman (assuming of course, that this is really the “end game” of the dating and mating game, rather than the fist bumps he gets from other dudes for “getting some”)

  • Abbot

    “it’s geared to the man who enjoys the idea of falling in love”

    That “idea” with all its happy balloon and shooting-star imagery typically ceases to exist immediately upon discovering what the proximate objects of affection have allowed themselves to express explore and embrace.

  • Jonny

    Being Beta does work with women who aren’t so experienced, which is most women. The complaint about Alphas versus Betas are with the high market value women. Most Beta men are not in that league so it doesn’t apply. Of course, if you’re into short term dating, it doesn’t hurt to be more alpha, but why are you bothering with Beta techniques since what you’re already doing? Your Beta behavior signals long term dating techniques.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Your Beta behavior signals long term dating techniques.

      Precisely, which is why women have evolved to select for those traits for non-casual sex.

  • Senior Beta

    Great post. My only observation was that AK and Roissy were on the same wave-length yesterday. AK saying dump the gal who wants to date another while preaching to the LTR choir and Roissy coaxing the reluctant betas into how to get into an LTR. Maybe all of you are cut from the same cloth after all.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Clay:
    “There’s a lot of inner game work that a guy needs to do to be confident in who he is to the point where he doesn’t have to put on a front to get girls. By letting go of the vanity of “being alpha enough” he can free himself from the whole neurotic game of trying to balance between two unhealthy extremes and become a truly attractive guy capable of having a meaningful interaction with a woman (assuming of course, that this is really the “end game” of the dating and mating game, rather than the fist bumps he gets from other dudes for “getting some”)”

    O: Hello Clay! Glad to meet you.

    I find your statements to be just a weebit confusing – to tell you the truth, it comes across as more of the quasi-New Agey type fluff that I do have a pet peeve with. Personally I prefer more formatted, step by step tactics that have been field tested and proven to work with a high rate of success, whatever the goal of the guy in question may have for himself. I tend to be neutral in that way.

    As for the notion of “putting on a front”, let me ask you a question:

    Do you “put on a front” on your day job? Or do you tell your boss exactly what you think of him/her (like me, for example – I truly do keep it brutally raw, and have no compunctions about telling a boss that I have absolutely zero intention of laughing at his lameassed jokes, etc.) – if so/not, why? If “putting on a front” for the sake of your job – which most Americans are located there more than anywhere else – why ISNT it alright to “put on a front” for one’s girl?

    Please explain?

    O.

  • Abbot

    “Alphas versus Betas are with the high market value women”

    Sure, until you discover that -your- high value woman was the low hanging fruit for numerous other men

  • Negs, not insults

    “than the nice guy who clumsily delivers negs at the bar (“Are you sure you should be wearing horizontal stripes?”).”

    This is the second time recently our kind hostess has seemed to misunderstand what a neg is, so I am going to try to clarify. A neg is not an insult! It is an ambigious comment that makes a girl think “what is that supposed to mean”. In your example above, that isn’t a neg, that is an insult. A better neg (in form using your setup) would be “it is refreshing to see a girl confident enough that she doesn’t feel self-conscious wearing horizontal stripes”.

    A primer: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/09/26/the-subtle-art-of-the-insidious-neg/

    Money quote: It’s supposed to be perceived as a throwaway line of sincere and innocent intent that serves two purposes: one, it disqualifies you to sexy babes who start on the assumption that you’re just another joe schmoe who wants in their pants, and two, it infiltrates a girl’s subconscious so that she spends more mental energy analyzing her worth than she does analyzing yours.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Negs, not insults

      Thanks for the lesson in Game but am very comfortable with the concept of negs. (What was the other recent example?) Did you see the part where I said clumsily? That was my point – most guys are terrible at negging, and throw insults instead. Here are a few of real life “negs” women have reported to me:

      “Do you always go out to bars with spinach in your teeth?”
      “Your friend is really hot.”
      “You look like you dig fried food, are the sweet potato fries any good here?”
      “Are you sure you don’t want to go with a vodka soda instead? Calorie-wise?”

      Here are some that I thought worked well:

      “Do you have time for coffee, or did you spend your whole lunch hour trying to get into that parking space?”
      “What do you call that skirt? Is that what Spanx is?”
      “Hey, where’d you learn to dance like that?” (grin/smirk)

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        Also, about negs. You will know when you have successfully negged your target when she smiles or laughs, looks pretend shocked, and slaps you on the arm. If this happens, you have scored a direct hit.

        It is impossible for a woman to respond this way to any neg, however indirect or amusing, about her weight. Even a SHB10 will feel her spirits sink when teased about her weight. A weight-related neg is incapable of producing the tingle. Do not do it. At best, you will find yourself with a sullen SHB10, at worst she’ll tell you to fuck off and mean it.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I always hate to admit this, but personally commit a lot of the major beta-behavior sins that Game bloggers tend to warn against—I will buy drinks, dinners, tickets/venue covers, flowers, date gifts, etc. I also tend to flatter; in fact, I actively try to find things that I like about the person so that I can compliment her about them and hopefully establish lines of rapport that can be used to deepen the discussion.

    These could all be seen as natural chump moves. Perhaps what keeps me relatively safe is the fact that I’m Explorer/bi-strategic (both STR and LTR-oriented for different reasons) and that I tend to do these things in formulaic fashion. I see these gimmicks and techniques as a means for refining a personal artistic expression, as if I am an entertainer working an audience and looking for the emotional levers and dials that crate a satisfying performance for everyone.

    Some of the really sharp tech-start-up entrepreneurship authors have written about the need to make bold moves and to conduct meaningful experiments in the beginning of the start-up operation. Rather than trying to come up with a detailed business plan from the beginning and to fine-tune a product that may suck, you develop a Minimum Viable Product (“MVP”) and get it out in front of potential customers as early as you can. You ask big questions and use the feedback to make significant changes in the product—these changes are called “pivots”. Later on, when you have firmly established the link between product and market, you can enter a second, “optimization” phase and start fine-tuning.

    You can imagine that, during the “pivot” phase, you are trying to decide on cardinal directions—should you go north, south, east, or west. As you get “warmer” to your desired location (the bedroom, the altar, a 3some, whatever—I’m not judgmental) you would “optimize” and start differentiating between, say, northwest, north, and northeast.

    I think that this iterative, feedback-oriented “lean start-up” mentality may have lessons for courtship.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I though the summer got too fresh suddenly… Mmm time to check the emergency supplies. ;)

  • J

    @BB

    I see these gimmicks and techniques as a means for refining a personal artistic expression, as if I am an entertainer working an audience and looking for the emotional levers and dials that crate a satisfying performance for everyone.

    Interesting. You could describe your teaching style similarly .

    @Ana

    LOL. Soon my DH will have me filling empty milk containers with water.

    N0, actually 2012 will be described by historians as the summer of love. SW agreed with Roissy, Roissy agreed with Athol, I agreed with Obsidian. It’s the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. Now let’s all sing. ;-)

    @Negs, not insults

    I think SW and the rest of the women folk understand what a neg is. She was commenting on negs gone wrong.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    J, yes, absolutely. I think that people in our self-absorbed, hyper-kinetic ADD age sometimes just want a performance, an escape. I think a guy probably has to view himself to some extent as a product in the SMP, a product with a “value proposition” that women agree to if it solves a perceived problem.

    According to some neuromarketing materials, people tend to have two types of problems: they have things that they want and don’t have (aspiration problems), and they have things that they don’t want but do have (affliction problems).

  • Richard

    If “putting on a front” for the sake of your job – which most Americans are located there more than anywhere else – why ISNT it alright to “put on a front” for one’s girl?

    Seriously? You equate an intimate relationship with a woman with a workplace relationship with a boss? For some of us, the appeal of an intimate relationship is the dropping of the “front”, the exposure of oneself, authenticity etc.

    But that’s probably “new age fluff” to you.

  • Just a thought

    *I will preface my post with saying I’m not to fond of chateau Heartiste. I lurked on his site for nearly a year. at first I was fascinated with his understanding of the female mind. Then I was disgusted because he really is an amoral, shitty guy. I got totally sick of PUA.*

    I have one major problem with this post,
    here: ““if I could just remind him of our intense connection…” Man oh man, is that not just a perfect archetypical hamster rationalization? “I know he loves me because we had an intense connection. He just dumped me because he got scared.” Goddamned priceless. Anyhow, if this chick is telling the truth, she must be really REALLY hot. Because, in reality, that’s the only sort of “game” that works for women, especially women who do weird stalkerish shit like she did.”"

    Guys complain that girls won’t ask a guy out, or pay for the first date. Here’s why we don’t. Whenever a girl professes her love for a guy first, asks him out and other things, guys call it creepy or call her “a stalker chic”. Girls are, in effect, penalized for showing interest in guys by being forward. I have love poems hidden in my drawer for every guy I have ever crushed ( three guys in total, well, maybe they weren’t crushes because they lasted for years, but whatever), but I would never send any of these guys nathing I had ever written or express my affection publicly,because somehow this is not correct or appropriate.
    All Heartiste can tell women to do in this SMV is
    1. Don’t be fat. (i.e., lose all extra weight, be skinny)
    2. Lower your standards
    3. Be hot.

    thanks, heartiste.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    This blog post inspired me to check out the infamous Roissy. I took the Dating Market Value Test and scored a 23. According to the test, if I got reasonable sized implants (+2 points) I’d be dealing with constant stinging pain and muscle discomfort for several years and still be a “Greater Beta” (15 – 29). Looks like I would gain the most points by dropping just 10 more pounds (+7 points) which would take me clear into Nascent Alpha Female range before my age demotes me!

    Or I could just sit here and enjoy my ice cream. :)

  • Cooper

    @Royale W. Cheese

    Hilarious!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This blog post inspired me to check out the infamous Roissy. I took the Dating Market Value Test and scored a 23.

    Heh if you take them as a joke they are quite funny. I think I lost 7 points just by becoming a full size 2, how dare I. ;)

    LOL. Soon my DH will have me filling empty milk containers with water.
    N0, actually 2012 will be described by historians as the summer of love. SW agreed with Roissy, Roissy agreed with Athol, I agreed with Obsidian. It’s the dawning of the Age of Aquarius. Now let’s all sing.

    Harmony and understanding
    Sympathy and trust abounding
    No more falsehoods or derisions
    Golden living dreams of visions
    Mystic crystal revalation
    And the mind’s true liberation
    Aquarius!
    Aquarius!

  • Mike C

    CALIBRATION IS EVERYTHING.

    If one were to search my past comments going back a long time, I’ve repeatedly mentioned the concept of calibration.

    Injecting some beta is particularly useful if the guy is on the surface very alpha. To take an extreme example, the 6’4″ ultimate fighter that rolls up to the front of the club in a Porsche can easily demonstrate a soft side in interactions, and in fact HAS TO.

  • Rum

    I get the fact that women in this SMP are hyper-sensitive about their place on the fat-thin continuum. I even think I know why. They are terrified of what they see all around them – that looks like the rapid and inevitable fate of so many women and girls to lard up sooner than later. There is the freshman 15, then 30 equals 30 extra pounds, and then the “accept-me-for-who-I-am” surrender to blimpiness.. This looks more like the rule rather than the exception.
    Women today have very little confidence that they can, with attainable effort, avoid this path. If they were not so worried they would not be so sensitive about the subject.
    I have hung out with a lot of female long distance runners. I seriously doubt that a fat-neg would make much of an impression on them at all. Same with our pioneer ancestors slogging across the praires. It would be like a joke that got no laughs. It would not even work as an insult, since it not make enough sense. I mean, when there are no real worries of being suddenly ambushed by a fupa.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rum

      I even think I know why. They are terrified of what they see all around them — that looks like the rapid and inevitable fate of so many women and girls to lard up sooner than later. There is the freshman 15, then 30 equals 30 extra pounds, and then the “accept-me-for-who-I-am” surrender to blimpiness.. This looks more like the rule rather than the exception.

      I wonder if this varies by location and/or SES. I attended several college graduations this spring, and I was struck by how few overweight graduates there were. I’d estimate that 10-20% of both sexes were overweight. This is in Boston, excellent schools, so that may be part of it. Though I’ve also attended a graduation in the South where the same was true. I also know that eating disorders are common at all of these schools.

      Women are paranoid about their weight very early – I recall my daughter worrying about it at age 4 after her ballet teacher told her to hold in her “hot fudge sundae belly.” They are bombarded with body image materials, and the fat acceptance movement isn’t fooling anyone, including the fat girls. You’d be hard pressed to find a single American teenager who genuinely would prefer to be fat.

      I don’t doubt that a woman with exceedingly low body fat would laugh off a neg about her weight, but such women are rare. Even (or especially?) anorexic women fear that they are fat and disgusting. I have never known a single female who didn’t feel sensitive about at least one body part, and that includes the track and cross country teams my own daughter ran with.

      I stand by my earlier statement. A neg about a woman’s body is very poor strategy, because the risk of genuinely offending her is so high. It’s not a good way to generate attraction. On the other hand, if you want to get revenge on some woman for rejecting you, a comeback about her fat ass or thighs will be very effective.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Mike C, I agree. Absolutely. A 5’5/145 pound PUA may have to play up the dominance act because his ability to actually physically dominate a fit woman—let’s imagine that she went feral for some reason and attacked him—could actually be in question. He could conceivably get his ass kicked by a girl, let alone some vodka & Red Bull-fueled, coked-out Jersey Shore type with a bullying streak.

    The dominance potential of the big badass guy in your description is just beyond question. He’s playing a deeper game now, running chess instead of checkers, dealing with second and third-order social/seduction concerns and trying to disarm them because the immediate questions of physicality just aren’t issues for him at all.

    If you ever have a chance, my friend, please link me to some of your previous calibration discussions or steer me that way. I’d very much enjoy reading them.

  • Odds

    “These guys know they often need to act boyfriendy with the freshmen to get laid…”

    Badger has a post on this. Short version is that men need intimacy, too, and have found that this is the best way to get intimacy and sex on our own terms. The man has a point. Just because the intimacy is short-lived doesn’t make it any less real.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Odds

      Just because the intimacy is short-lived doesn’t make it any less real.

      I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about physical or sexual intimacy? Because emotional intimacy develops via a process of exposure, vulnerability, support, sharing, trust, loyalty and deep caring. It is not possible to have emotional intimacy in a hookup or ONS.

      If you’re referring to post-coital moves like spooning, many women have learned the hard way that affectionate gestures during or after sex mean nothing. In fact, they often signal a coming whiplash and withdrawal, as the guy freaks out that things felt a little close there for a minute. In my experience, those are the worst dumps – they occur precisely as the relationship is moving from STR to LTR.

  • Esau

    Royale: I would gain the most points by dropping just 10 more pounds (+7 points) which would take me clear into Nascent Alpha Female range before my age demotes me!

    Or I could just sit here and enjoy my ice cream.

    So, it’s a win either way!

  • J

    @BB

    You are quite right, both in theory and in how you market yourself.

    @Ana

    Thanks for that blast from the past!

    @rwc

    Taking the Dating Market Value Test calls for a gallon of ice cream.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Thanks for that blast from the past!

    I actually never saw the musical that came from the song I added it to my netflix :D.
    Now I’m watching Total Eclipse of the Heart…*nostalgic night* :)

  • Emily

    Royale W. Cheese (15),

    “Greater Beta” is the best place to be, because it means that your assortative mating counterparts are “Greater Beta” men. The best kind!

  • J

    @Ana

    I saw Hair on Broadway when I was in my teens. It was my first Broadway show, and I thought it was pretty cool. The movie is worth watching too. Are you watching the original video of “Total Eclipse of the Heart”? The boy’s eyes freak me out.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Are you watching the original video of “Total Eclipse of the Heart”? The boy’s eyes freak me out.

    Yes. I actually started my love affair with music videos with this one. Till them I was like “meh music videos” then this one blew my mind “Wait music videos can have symbols, metaphors and be a minimovie?!!!…GREAT!!! I saw it before I saw Thriller of course.

  • modernguy

    “Obviously, this advice will apply to men who are seeking more than a ONS – it’s geared to the man who enjoys the idea of falling in love or at least of introducing some emotion into the mix. ”

    I’m trying to square the idea of the man who enjoys falling in love with the object of that love in our modern society, namely the hot chick with douchebag: http://hotchickswithdouchebags.com.

    I think the thing that you don’t get Susan is this: the manosphere is trying to explain the hot chick with douchebag phenomenon. It’s the most pressing and most vexing question of our time: How can women be so stupid as to love these morons (and not “good” guys).

    You’re unconsciously trying to mitigate the importance of this issue, mainly with the old NAWALT canard, but it’s like trying to stop up a leaky dam by sticking your finger in the cracks. You don’t want men to conclude that actually all women are fundamentally like that, to varying degrees.

    But you won’t be able to block out the blindingly obvious fact: The hottest girls spend their prime years putting out for these losers. And they like it. And all the other guys notice it.

    You try to promote an alternate paradigm for alpha/beta divide than the crude one Roissy promotes. But the reason Roissy’s breakdown works is because it’s so simple and the examples are so prevalent. Girls, especially the hottest ones in their primes are putting out for the biggest, dumbest douchebags. Everyone sees this. In popular culture, in their social circles, and in their personal lives. Stop trying to bury it and divert attention from it. If those guys are not ‘alphas’ the word has no meaning.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      It’s the most pressing and most vexing question of our time: How can women be so stupid as to love these morons (and not “good” guys).

      Because the women are morons and not “good” girls. Like attracts like.

      You don’t want men to conclude that actually all women are fundamentally like that, to varying degrees.

      I actually don’t care what men conclude, which is why I’m always trying to avoid NAWALT debates. You’re gonna think what you wanna think. If that’s what you see out there, I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong.

      My readership is demonstrably not like that, and they are the women I counsel. *shrugs*

      You try to promote an alternate paradigm for alpha/beta divide than the crude one Roissy promotes. But the reason Roissy’s breakdown works is because it’s so simple and the examples are so prevalent.

      Huh? This post endorses Roissy’s view of beta game. I have proposed no alternative. The whole point of the post is that I think beta guys would do well to follow his advice.

      The key difference in this Heartiste post is that it addresses men who want relationships. Game as conceived and written is focused on getting beautiful women into bed within 7 hours of meeting them. Most of Roissy’s writings (not all) have been geared toward that objective.

      My blog is geared toward relationships, and other bloggers, including Athol and Keoni Galt, have addressed Game for LTRs and marriage. This post of Roissy’s does as well, and that is why this is one moment when our missions overlap.

  • modernguy
  • Courtley

    “In very unusual circumstances, an extreme form of beta male game — the loathsome male feminist orbiter — can occasionally redound in rare, ungainly and passionless sexual favors from the manipulative, flabby wymyn to whom this execrable species (hello hugo!) ingratiates himself.”

    Ha. Roissy can say what he wants about Hugo and his (Roissy’s) perceptions of who ‘feminists’ are, but being a self-described male feminist or just being a very liberal man in general is simply NOT mutually exclusive with being an alpha male. At least not where I’m from on the Left Coast.

    And I definitely know a lot of objectively high-SMV women who are feminists, of the liberated-slut variety, naturally. I thought this was the more common Sphere definition of ‘feminist’ as opposed to flabby/fat/hairy/ugly/masculine feminazi? Because that type of feminist is relatively rare among Gen-Y women in my experience.

    Also:

    @Jonny
    “Being Beta does work with women who aren’t so experienced, which is most women. The complaint about Alphas versus Betas are with the high market value women. Most Beta men are not in that league so it doesn’t apply. Of course, if you’re into short term dating, it doesn’t hurt to be more alpha, but why are you bothering with Beta techniques since what you’re already doing? Your Beta behavior signals long term dating techniques.”

    Heh, yes. There’s varying degrees of honesty about this in the Manosphere, but it is absolutely true in general that when these dudes complain about ‘women’ they mean high-SMV women, 6s at the VERY least.

    I guess Roissy is advising guys who’ve mastered what he would consider the ‘basics’ of Game but are still more LTR-oriented, or want to be at some point in the future.

  • Courtley

    @modernguy

    “I think the thing that you don’t get Susan is this: the manosphere is trying to explain the hot chick with douchebag phenomenon. ”

    Haha trust me . . . I think we have gotten that message loud and clear. But thank you for your honesty. :)

  • Courtley

    and PS the majority of couples on that site look made for each other. It’s a funny site, but I canNOT understand how these couples could make anyone *angry.*

  • Cooper

    “Huh? This post endorses Roissy’s view of beta game. I have proposed no alternative. The whole point of the post is that I think beta guys would do well to follow his advice.”

    That was the point of the post!!!? I thought it was to highlight that PUAs will use every trick to their disposal, such as even acting like a chump, to bed hot beautiful women.

    “The key difference in this Heartiste post is that it addresses men who want relationships. Game as conceived and written is focused on getting beautiful women into bed within 7 hours of meeting them. Most of Roissy’s writings (not all) have been geared toward that objective.”

    “That’s enough for this post. Sometimes beta male game can win an attractive woman over if it’s executed with extreme creativity, whimsy, ballsiness or unpredictability, and is reinforced by a preexisting alpha male context. “Sometimes” being the key word here, because if you think that this sort of rom-com sappy beta male suckuppery is the ticket to poon paradise or marital bliss, you will be sorely reminded of the squalid nature of female sexuality in short order.”

    He’s not advising guys on how to get relationships. LOL. He is simply saying that when you encounter a woman with exceptional LTR-filters, you might have to splice some beta into your game, in order to get her to bed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      That was the point of the post!!!? I thought it was to highlight that PUAs will use every trick to their disposal, such as even acting like a chump, to bed hot beautiful women.

      That was a point supporting the value of beta game, even douchebags use it. Obviously, it’s used to soften an otherwise hardened, unempathic exterior for appearances sake, because guys know that most women won’t have sex with them unless the potential for a relationship is there. Nearly all the pump and dump stories I hear include the guy’s pretending to be interested in more than he is. I have heard of a couple where the guy actually stopped before penetration and said, “Just so you know, I am not looking for a relationship.” But only the highest SMV guys can pull that off and still score.

      He’s not advising guys on how to get relationships. LOL. He is simply saying that when you encounter a woman with exceptional LTR-filters, you might have to splice some beta into your game, in order to get her to bed.

      He does say “marital bliss.” Re strategy #2:

      2. As a self-advertisement for long term relationship suitability, given preexisting sufficiently compensatory alpha male traits.

      Number two is a specific game strategy designed to screen out girls who would make bad long term relationship prospects, and attract women who are looking to settle down.

      Good god, are you suggesting that Roissy is providing a road map to pretend interest in an LTR to achieve a pump and dump? I didn’t think even he was that cynical. I don’t think that’s what he’s saying.

      I think he is acknowledging that some men do want LTRs and those men need to advertise their beta traits, though never make it the “main course.”

  • GudEnuf

    “In very unusual circumstances, an extreme form of beta male game — the loathsome male feminist orbiter — can occasionally redound in rare, ungainly and passionless sexual favors from the manipulative, flabby wymyn to whom this execrable species (hello hugo!) ingratiates himself.”

    Feminist women are not horrible monsters. I’ve had a couple of feminist women ask me out when they noticed I had an interest in feminism. I didn’t have to act like Hugo to attract them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      Do you recall the interview with Jaclyn Friedman where she complains that feminist men don’t turn her on because they are so ingratiating?

      Oh God. There is a type of feminist guy who is so eager to fall over himself to be deferential to women and to prove his feminist bona fides and flagellate himself in front of you, to the point that it really turns me off. And it makes me sad, because politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with! You know what I’m talking about?

      Everyone knows what I’m talking about. And some of them are even really cute! I want to say to them, “If you could be a person, like a whole, complicated person, who I feel like I could crack jokes around, then I would really like you.” But they’re so serious about their feminism at every moment that I don’t feel like a person to them.

      A good example is these guys:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, here’s the background you’re missing. Roissy has had multiple LTRs, and he has said in the past that he tended to prefer them. When he started the blog circa 2006/7, it was a lot “nicer” and had quite a few romantic musings interspersed with red pill stuff.

    The tone has changed, but there used to be entries where he’d talk about the joys and pains of being in love, etc. If the same person is writing, it’s not inconceivable for him to go back to writing about LTRs. The LTR/marriage game stuff by Dave in Hawaii and Athol Kay got started there, around 2007/8ish. Since then Athol Kay broke away on his own and found his own success, but Roissy was among the first to take PUA game’s lessons to pontificate on LTR game.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I don’t wish to muddy these already-cloudy waters with an appeal to yet another round of jargon, but I think that we may need to somehow differentiate between the guy who is a 100% hook-up-oriented pump-and-dump professional (if he says he wants an LTR, he is invariably being deceptive) and the guy who will switch between short and long-term mating strategies depending on his environment; incentives; emerging information about a potential mate; a relationship’s ability to continually provide high-quality sex, fun, and male ego validation over long periods of time; and so on (if he says he wants an LTR, he is being honest in at least an abstract, theoretical way—under the right incentive structure, he would want an LTR).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I don’t wish to muddy these already-cloudy waters with an appeal to yet another round of jargon, but I think that we may need to somehow differentiate between the guy who is a 100% hook-up-oriented pump-and-dump professional (if he says he wants an LTR, he is invariably being deceptive) and the guy who will switch between short and long-term mating

      The first obviously is likely to be a cad, as 42% men confess to having told a woman they were in love with her just to get sex. That means this must be true of a very, very high percentage of men with a short-term orientation. This guy is unlikely to ever be a “dad.”

      The second guy can be either, but the ability to sustain an LTR if he wishes is something the first guy lacks. The vast majority of guys fit into this group. I’ve been uncovering some data about men in college and a much higher percentage report hooking up with intercourse in the last year than some might expect (at least 50% IIRC). Most men will experience casual sex and prefer it some of the time. This guy is not very likely to be a full-blown cad, though he may have his douchebag period.

      Cad and dad are not perfect equivalents to what you described, but they’re approximate.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Just to add: the first guy does not *want* an LTR, full stop. The second guy does not *need* an LTR. Both types of men can enjoy casual sex.

  • Cooper

    “Good god, are you suggesting that Roissy is providing a road map to pretend interest in an LTR to achieve a pump and dump? ”

    PRESICELY!

    I think he is promoting beta behavior in the likes of how the bird, killdeer, find use to fake injury. He using beta-traits as a fake out – deception.
    I’m not sure, does he at any point advise his readership to NOT use the method unless they’re genuinely seeking a relationship? I don’t think so, cause #1 was to use it as a softening technique – note the quotation about “long term.” He is essentially saying feed their hamster – give them a bit of beta so they’ll believe what they want to.

    “Beta male strategies, in other words, are meant as adjuncts to alpha male, or high value male, game.
    The reverse — adjunct alpha male strategies to complement low value beta male game — is hardly ever an effective strategy for attracting and bedding the women you want.”

  • Ramble

    That was my point – most guys are terrible at negging, and throw insults instead. Here are a few of real life “negs” women have reported to me:

    “Do you always go out to bars with spinach in your teeth?”
    “Your friend is really hot.”
    “You look like you dig fried food, are the sweet potato fries any good here?”
    “Are you sure you don’t want to go with a vodka soda instead? Calorie-wise?”

    Most people are terrible at most things until they get good at it. Which usually comes through practice and failure.

  • Ramble

    Also, about negs. You will know when you have successfully negged your target when she smiles or laughs, looks pretend shocked, and slaps you on the arm. If this happens, you have scored a direct hit.

    Susan, I have “atom bombed” girls successfully before. A recent example involves calling a girl’s nutrition regimen horse-shit right to her face. I was not trying to pick her up, but, she kept falling me around the party giving obvious IOIs. It’s almost like passing/destroying her shit test before she ever got the chance to shit test you in the first place.

    However, I agree that calling some girl, especially if she is at least a little bit overweight, fat is likely to ruin any chance you might have had.

  • Ramble

    I canNOT understand how these couples could make anyone *angry.*

    Which town would you rather live, and raise your children, in:
    - the one filled with hot chicks and their douche bags, or
    - the one filled with “girls next door” and their engineer husbands
    ?

    Girls sexual choices have major consequences.

  • Just a thought

    Yazz, a woman never bore you , you just came out fully formed from your father’s skull.

    Ramble, I would like to point out that in your situation you have two different girls, who make two different choices. Girls Next Door are the female equivalent of beta men, guys don’t really notices them as much. Hot girls are the equivalent of alpha men, they are extremely attractive and guys love them. So, in this case, how can we limit the power of the most attractive girls? Guys could hand them less power. Or, more likely, we can’t limit their power. We can only convince the girls next door not to act like their alpha hottie friends and tell them to act sensibly in dating.

  • Ramble

    Girls Next Door are the female equivalent of beta men, guys don’t really notices them as much.

    Hugh Hefner modeled the Playboy Bunny after the “Girl Next Door”. I know, I know, the average girl next door did not usually look like his playmates, but that was the idea he was starting from.

    Not terribly different than Walt Disney modeling Disney Land/World after your typical Main Street in America.

    The appeal was there.

  • Joe

    @Just a Thought

    Girls Next Door are the female equivalent of beta men, guys don’t really notices them as much.

    Um, there’s this guy you may have heard of? – Hugh Hefner? He made a bit of a fortune (and a reputation) from photographing “The Girl Next Door”.

    It’s been 60 years now, and ever since, “The Girl Next Door” is hardly the one men don’t pay attention to.

    Could it be that the guys paying attention to that type are not the one’s you want paying attention?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      It’s been 60 years now, and ever since, “The Girl Next Door” is hardly the one men don’t pay attention to.

      IDK, a lot of college girls get told they’re just too wholesome for right now. This usually takes the form of “You’re the kind of girl I would introduce to my mom, but I don’t want to do that till I’m much older.”

  • Ramble

    Do you recall the interview with Jaclyn Friedman where she complains that feminist men don’t turn her on because they are so ingratiating?

    Feminist being really, really honest: “Look, you can’t win. So, you might as well be as bad as you want to. At least we we have something good to complain about.”

  • Ramble

    IDK, a lot of college girls get told they’re just too wholesome for right now.

    Tyler: “Gee, Mary Ann, I was really looking for a pump and dump, and hopefully some anal, so you are not really what I was looking for.”

    Feature, not Bug.

    Mary Ann: “That’s it, I am going to that Alpha Nu Asshat party and blowing the first guy I see, that’ll show him”

    Bug.

  • Sassy6519

    When women think of the “girl next door” type, women typically imagine this:

    http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7700000/Girl-Next-Door-jessica-hamby-7786208-550-550.jpg

    http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/070/d/0/the_girl_next_door_by_mikeshART.jpg

    Men typically imagine this:

    http://images.buddytv.com/userquizimages/86ddb8de-e269-4fcd-a2fb-a4695107c016the_girls_next_door_08_calender.jpg

    http://celebritygossips.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/girls.jpg

    How playboy playmates could be considered “girl next door” types is beyond me. Perhaps they could be girl next door types, if you live in a wealthy neighborhood in Las Angeles. Since most people don’t, I don’t see how such women can define the type.

  • Emily

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I always assume that the imagined “Girl Next Door” is an Erin Heatherton type. In real life, the actual girl next door probably looks more like Lena Dunham.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Gents, watch that “Dear Woman” youtube link that Susan posted. At first I hoped that it must be some kind of gag or brilliant satire piece—i.e., we’d suddenly find that these guys were all commodity traders at Goldman who had put this thing together prior to hitting Scores to celebrate after a big quarter. But it appears to be completely serious.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Yup, it was serious. Here’s the parody, but it’s almost as painful to watch, haha!

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLRu6PJtRv4

  • Ramble

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I always assume that the imagined “Girl Next Door” is an Erin Heatherton type. In real life, the actual girl next door probably looks more like Lena Dunham.

    Well, I think the old fashioned comparison was Mary Ann versus Ginger on Gilligan’s Island.

    Either way, Lena Dunham is considerably heavier than the GND back in the 50′s. I am also guessing that she is snarkier and much more accepting, or approving, of douche baggery.

  • Emily

    Re: Hot Chicks With Douchebags (the website)

    You’ll get the occasional “Wtf!” couple on there, but most of the pairings on that site seem to be Chav + Chav assortative mating.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Joe
    “Um, there’s this guy you may have heard of? – Hugh Hefner? He made a bit of a fortune (and a reputation) from photographing “The Girl Next Door”.”

    Oh, come on. Those are hardly girls next door. They are a fantasy built around the idea of the girl next door. That’s like saying that a 6’5″ guy built like a young Dolph Lundgren and drives a Maserati is a beta male because he happens to wear glasses.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    IDK, a lot of college girls get told they’re just too wholesome for right now.

    Well, sure, for certain values of “a lot”. ;)

    From the guy’s POV, though, I know too many of them who thought “The Girl Next Door” on whom he was crushing wasn’t interested in him, either, because he thought she was looking at the team quarterback. Like always, it works both ways. It makes for a lot of unnecessary misery because many times, both of them are wrong.

    … for certain values of “many times”.

    But doesn’t it make finding love, after all that time and frustration, all the better? /pollyannaism_of_the_day.

  • Ramble

    Sassy, tons and tons of “beta” would love a girl like the Jessica Hamby you linked to.

    re: The Whores Next Door

    When I referenced Playboy, I was talking about the image the original playmates portrayed way back when. Although I can’t remember the last time I saw a Playboy mag, I believe that the pictorials are still somewhat “wholesome” and “innocent”.

  • Ramble

    Royale, a female equivalent would be if girls fantasized about some “farm boy” who happened to be 6’3″, broad shouldered, confident (though, not cocky), perfectly weathered jeans and sparkling blue eyes (or hazelnut brown, or whatever). And he should NOT smell of manure.

    It’s a fantasy.

    Actually, i think that girls still sorta get this today. I am thinking of Fireman calendars where the guys have all their equipment and they are sitting on the truck, but they are shirtless. It’s almost real.

  • Joe

    @Royale

    Oh, come on. Those are hardly girls next door. They are a fantasy built around the idea of the girl next door.

    Well, they are after photo-shopping. ;)

    It’s not exactly like a guy believes his neighbor looks like a centerfold 24/7, unless he’s an idiot, of course. A little secret, Royale. Guys are looking for a diamond in the rough too, you know? The reality of TGND can easily trump the paper on which the fantasy is printed.

    That teenage boy and young man you’re thinking of is also quite capable of seeing his neighbor in a flattering light. Sometimes beer isn’t necessary for beer goggles, at least to some extent.

  • Cooper

    Can anyone explain to me how I can change my user photo?

    When I go the “profile” and click “appereance” I get:

    “You do not have sufficient permissions to access this page.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Are you at Gravatar? Is that your body btw? I think you should keep it up there ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Cooper

    Try using the site that I use.

    http://www.gravatar.com

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.com Dan_Brodribb

    @ Sassy,

    Well that Jessica Hamby picture was amazing, so if that’s what the girl next door looks like, I’m all about that.

    Quickly, to the Google Images-mobile!

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.com Dan_Brodribb

    Gahhh! Vampire fangs!

    The only way she could be the Girl Next Door is if in some kind of gender swap Fright Night. http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/08/19/movie-blog-fright-night-the-vampire-next-door/

    Not that I would be against that.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Dan_Brodribb

    Well that Jessica Hamby picture was amazing, so if that’s what the girl next door looks like, I’m all about that.

    Quickly, to the Google Images-mobile!

    Hahaha!! Thanks for giving me a good laugh today.

    If you’re curious, the actress’ real name is Deborah Ann Woll. She is soooooo pretty, in my opinion. I can easily imagine seeing women that look like her in my neighborhood as well.

  • Cooper

    @Sassy
    Thanks. I still don’t think I doing it right. It seems like the wordpress account I created, and the Cooper account on HUS are separate, so it seems.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    What’s very interesting to me, isn’t the current post by Roissy/Heartiste as much as the (utter relative lack of) responses from his own blog’s commenters; currently, there is a 66 comment count; right now, HUS sports 71 comments on the same issue.

    This goes to my point that R/H has never really been about straight ahead Game teaching, but rather, just merely “outrage”. For example, let’s consider a few other high-comment posts of his:

    “A Little Pain Warms The Female Heart” has 268 comments:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/a-little-pain-warms-the-female-heart/

    “Comment Of The Week” has 216 comments
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/comment-of-the-week-11/

    “What Kirsten Stewart’s Cheating Tells Us About Good Looking Beta Males” has 183 comments
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/what-kristen-stewarts-cheating-tells-us-about-good-looking-beta-males/

    And, of course, there’s the post on James Eagan Holmes: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/holmes-another-lovelorn-beta-male-rampage/

    Which garnered a whopping 341 comments. All of the posts mentioned and linked, are taken right from the frontpage of R/H’s blog, and no older than a week or so. Thus very recent.

    Again, I repeat: the post by R/H that is the topic of this post has gotten only 66 comments, thus far.

    Proof if there ever was, one, of what the true intent and purpose of Roissy/Heartiste. The “Game” stuff, while accurate most of the time, is nevertheless a cover for just having a forum with which to make outrageous statements which attract disaffected and often very angry readers.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      What’s very interesting to me, isn’t the current post by Roissy/Heartiste as much as the (utter relative lack of) responses from his own blog’s commenters; currently, there is a 66 comment count; right now, HUS sports 71 comments on the same issue.

      I thought the same thing. His beta readers don’t want to hear it, which I find interesting. I recall being quite surprised when I wrote a post outlining 10 good beta traits. The women were all thumbs up and the guys were really pissed off, like I was telling them to stay substandard or something. It seems like beta self-loathing, and that’s a tragedy, because truly, a mix of alpha and beta traits is ideal.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ramble:
    “Royale, a female equivalent would be if girls fantasized about some “farm boy” who happened to be 6’3″, broad shouldered, confident (though, not cocky), perfectly weathered jeans and sparkling blue eyes (or hazelnut brown, or whatever). And he should NOT smell of manure.”

    This guy isn’t representative of beta men, either.

    @Joe
    “It’s not exactly like a guy believes his neighbor looks like a centerfold 24/7, unless he’s an idiot, of course. A little secret, Royale. Guys are looking for a diamond in the rough too, you know? The reality of TGND can easily trump the paper on which the fantasy is printed.”

    A “diamond in the rough” seems to basically be a hot babe (9/10) who happens to live next door who is often spotted without her make-up, not your typical girl next door (4-6). Yes, if a hot babe is living next door, of course she’ll trump the centerfold. Proximity matters.

  • Ramble

    This guy isn’t representative of beta men, either.

    Right. It is an idealized, or fantastic, version of a farm boy.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Cooper
    Try signing up for a Gravatar using the e-mail address you use here. (That’s what I did. But I also signed up for a WordPress account at the same time, so I’m not sure which one of them did the trick for me.)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/ Bellita

    @Cooper
    Ooops! I didn’t see that Sassy already gave you the exact same advice. Sorry! I hope you can figure it out. :)

  • Joe

    @Royale

    A “diamond in the rough” seems to basically be a hot babe (9/10) who happens to live next door who is often spotted without her make-up, not your typical girl next door (4-6).

    So, you’re saying that the typical 4-6 living next door, that *he* thinks is a 5-7, but isn’t approaching because he’s intimidated by the quarterback she’s after is sitting home alone waiting for him to pay her some attention???

    Interesting. So is he.

    Frustrating, isn’t it? ;)

  • Emily

    Joe (78),

    I think the scenario you’re describing is pretty common. Betas of both genders tend to suck at IOIs.

  • Joe

    Emily, don’t I know it.

    I must sound flippant, but really, I’m kicking my younger self for all the times I did just that. In hindsight, it looks pretty foolish and all the angst was just wasted energy.

    The last thing teens and 20-somethings want to hear, I know, is “Have patience. It’ll work out.” It’s useless advice. But for almost everyone, it does, despite the inevitable screw-ups.

  • J

    @Ana #29

    I’m ambivalent about videos because I’m old. ;-) I remember a time when the listener got to write their own video in their head. I’ve loved some videos like “Take on Me,” which I would never have pictured in my own mind, but I’ved felt screwed out of the opportunity to imagine by others.

  • Cooper

    @Sassy
    I don’t about your GND pictures. When I imagine a cute, attractive ‘Girl Next Door’ type, I do not imagine anything like the bakini-babes you posted – I imagine something much, much closer to first examples.

  • J

    the manosphere is trying to explain the hot chick with douchebag phenomenon.

    I wish I could help with that, but I’ve never been attracted to douchebags, nor am I sure that the women who love douchebags are hotter than most women–just more likely to show off what they’ve got.

  • Cooper

    @#73 O’s 3rd link

    ““Will you visit me in prison?” read a haunting line at the top of his profile page.

    This is about the closest Holmes came to using effective game.”

    O.O

    ““Am a nice guy. Well, as nice enough of a guy who does these sort of shenanigans,” read his [profile] introduction.
    Here, Holmes admits that he is a niceguy. Do niceguys generally own up to their niceguyness?
    I’ve observed that many of them do. They seem to hold their niceguy status as simultaneously both a moral virtue and an unlucky burden to bear. Narcissist niceguys like Holmes love the feeling of martyrdom because it erects in their minds a triumph over their self-inflicted failures.”

    Wow.

  • Julianne

    Cooper looks like a naked male homoerotic Adonis. This isn’t Greece or Italy folks. Am I the only girl of the Millenial generation who dislikes these type of male “in your face” sexualized nudity? We have these naked muscular men who resemble Graeco-Roman warriors prancing around everywhere in the media. In the commercials, in the advertisement, in TV shows, in movies, in magazines and whatnot. It’s annoying and unattractive. But then again I am a religious girl. And I’m a ‘beta girl’ (if there is such a thing).

    Due to feminism and sexual liberation (e.g. hook-up culture) this type of sexualized male nudity phenomenon has exploded on a mass scale and normal guys are imitating them. It would be interesting if Susan Walsh did a post about this.

  • Julianne

    Oh noes. Susan Walsh likes Cooper’s pic too! *sighs*

  • Sassy6519

    @ Cooper

    Holy Hell Coops!!!! Holy Hell!!!

    *Proceeds to fan myself*

  • Sassy6519

    I agree with Susan Cooper. Keep the photo up there. ;)

  • J

    This goes to my point that R/H has never really been about straight ahead Game teaching, but rather, just merely “outrage”.

    Outrage? Chez Jimmy??? Nooooo!

    Say it isn’t so, Obs, say it isn’t so.

  • GudEnuf

    @ Susan: The “Dear Woman” people are not feminists, and they were universally panned by feminist bloggers.

    http://feministcurrent.com/2332/conscious-men-issue-fauxpology-creep-us-all-out/

    I know I’ve expressed frustration with certain feminist bloggers, but the average woman’s studies major is not trying to bite my dick off. They’re just normal women who are interested in politics and skeptical of gender roles. They don’t want their men to be constantly feeling guilty. They just want their men to recognize how gender roles hurt both of them, and be willing to change their behavior when it’s problematic.

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    Sí – ’tis my body. I wasn’t able to crop the photo correctly, so I lost the aviators. (which I had on to echo Ted, and M3) The way it turned out is growing on me though – it evidently keeps the anonymity. I think it should suffice in keeping guys from telling to get my testosterone up. (something I’ve grown somewhat tired of)

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Cooper

    OK, let’s start from Square 1. You are obviously HAWT. So what is the problem? This is not computing for me. Is it that you are an LTR kind of guy in a sea of STR kind of girls?

  • Ramble

    Cooper, I know that you get frustrated with some guys giving you advice that you already know, but, here goes:

    1. Make sure to get properly tailored shirts. Often enough, “fitted” shirts (i.e. those shirts labeled as “fitted” or “slim” fit) are still not all that tapered to a mans physique.

    And “regular” shirt are usually quite puffy at the waist. Getting your dress shirts tailored is not that expensive and can make a big difference.

    2. When buying t-shirts, look to brands like Banana Republic (or CK, or a dozen other brands) that will actually fit your shape. Most t-shirts tend to flare at the arms and float at the waist. If you are wearing one of those loose t-shirts, Sassy will not have the opportunity to swoon.

    3. Jeans, same deal. Make sure they fit. And, it can make for a nice date (“Keira, I need to get some new clothes and you have a good eye for these things. Help me pick out some stuff and I will buy you some gelato.”)

    Anyway, nohomo and all that.

  • Desiderius

    “politically, these are the guys that I should be sleeping with!”

    Annnd… that’s the problem with feminist women in a nutshell. I would hope for a woman who sees me as a (male) human being, not a political statement.

    “Proof if there ever was, one, of what the true intent and purpose of Roissy/Heartiste. The “Game” stuff, while accurate most of the time, is nevertheless a cover for just having a forum with which to make outrageous statements which attract disaffected and often very angry readers.”

    They’re angry because they’re unsuccessful with women and they’re unsuccessful with women because they’re spending all their time on the interwebs instead of out there getting practice. Wonder how their numbers compare with their female counterparts Facebooking themselves to death?

    All big technological innovations are highly disruptive, sometimes in ugly ways. Dog bites man.

  • Cooper

    @Ramble

    Really!? I’m not sure if your joking. I know in my photo I’m not wearing any clothing, but I do know how to dress myself. (I practically only wear Obey Ts, lol personal preference)

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    I’ve written a lengthy response to your question, but I’m going to have to revise it and get back to you later.

    @ramble
    Do know, I joke. Say what you wish.

  • Mary

    @Cooper – I’m guessing you want STR and one-night stands type of girls coming after you? Because with that picture that’s all you are going to get. LTR and marriage-minded girls (both secular and religious) prefer less sexual guys (aka manwhores) and STR girls will go after you like bees attracted to a beehive. You’re projecting too much sexiness for a LTR and unless you cover up your body scores of sluts, ONS girls, STR girls and bad girls are all you are going to get. How do I know this? All of the slutty girls I saw went after sexy guys like you. The LTR girls went after cute but clothed men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mary

      I think we can assume that Cooper doesn’t walk around town naked.

      I do think that Cooper is likely to attract sexually aggressive women, and he has shared some confirmation of this already. He may be that unicorn – alpha outside, beta inside is how my focus groups describe it (though in actuality they do want a mix of traits). In which case he will need to fend off sluts and make some sweet beta girl’s dreams come true.

  • Ramble

    No, I wasn’t joking. Hey, I see tons of guys who are athletic that wear standard dress shirts at my office. And, personally, I have found that “slim” fit shirts will also have some “poof” at the waist.

    I figured I would put it out there.

  • OffTheCuff

    Oh, bull about the “projecting too much sexiness” crap. Cooper is built like me, though he’s a bit more cut and I have broader shoulders. I didn’t have a problem scaring off LTR girls, and while women did approach me occasionally for STR stuff, my beta mindset killed them off.

  • Ramble

    Mary, I am guessing that Cooper wears a shirt every now and then.

  • Cooper

    Ramble, thanks. It’s appreciated.

    OTC, I know, right! These girls aren’t familiar with me. Practically anyone that’s been on HUS, for a minute, knows I’m not like what they imagine.

    Mary, are you saying good looking people ate restricted to STRs? No such thing as an attractive pair? I didn’t think so.

    @Susan
    Are questions in particular you’d like answered? I don’t feel like going into depths about my failure with various women, during college, and if I don’t absolutely have to. (maybe I’ll summarize a few of them)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Are questions in particular you’d like answered? I don’t feel like going into depths about my failure with various women, during college, and if I don’t absolutely have to. (maybe I’ll summarize a few of them)

      Based on your comments over time, and your dismay at learning some of the nuts and bolts of female sexuality, e.g. shit tests, push/pull for the tingle, etc. I’m assuming that you are prone to oneitis and pedestalizing (No offense, I’m genuinely trying to understand). Or perhaps just going all in too soon or showing your hand too soon.

      Here’s the reality: A guy with your looks who doesn’t want casual sex is like Christmas. It happens 1/365 of the time. I exaggerate but you get my point. You are going to have to aggressively filter women, and find a way to identify and approach LTR quality women.

      Who are you attracted to?

      I’m just confused as to why you’re struggling. Your strategy has to be off. Either you’re going after the wrong girls, or you’re committing way too early.

      You’re 26, right? Just want to put that in perspective as well.

      Anyway, don’t feel the need to explain your disappointing experiences in detail. But if you want to put it out there, we’ll try to get to the bottom of it.

  • Markku

    Hot 10/10 bikini babe that you could recognize if you saw her again, because she has some distinctive features about her face = girl next door

    Hot 10/10 bikini babe that you couldn’t recognize because she looks as plastic as the rest of them = babe

    Of course we realize that it’s not actually like that in the real world, but this is the instinctive response to those expressions, constantly reinforced by porn.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Markku

      Hot 10/10 bikini babe that you could recognize if you saw her again, because she has some distinctive features about her face = girl next door

      Hot 10/10 bikini babe that you couldn’t recognize because she looks as plastic as the rest of them = babe

      Of course we realize that it’s not actually like that in the real world, but this is the instinctive response to those expressions, constantly reinforced by porn.

      That’s a really interesting observation about porn. I have heard young guys go on at length about whether girls are cute or hot. I have always thought that girls next door = cute, and that those girls are generally not casual sex types. Girls guys describe as hot are often advertising their sexuality aggressively by comparison.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think the scenario you’re describing is pretty common. Betas of both genders tend to suck at IOIs.

    Oh boy so this. Again a beta woman that likes beta men have to whether suck it up and approach/initiate, recruit the help of a friend, develop IOI’s of the size of the moon or hit her crush with a baseball bat and drag him to a cave…maybe she will need to use two strategies at the same time and there still not guarantees. We Beta people come with a “clueless” gene ingrained on ourselves.

    I’m ambivalent about videos because I’m old. I remember a time when the listener got to write their own video in their head. I’ve loved some videos like “Take on Me,” which I would never have pictured in my own mind, but I’ved felt screwed out of the opportunity to imagine by others.

    Actually I’m the same the difference is that usually in my country you saw the video first then you got the LP/CD. The few times I have heard the song then saw the video I do get the “I though about it differently” the same if I see a movie based on a book shortly after I read it. I hated the Prisoner of Azkaban because I just finished the book and then went to watch it. When I rewatched it a year later I saw how brilliant it was so from them on I rather wait for the movie or read the book when the movie is getting filmed to avoid being comparing it to the movie in my head.

    @Everyone
    Mary and Julianne *Plain Pane alert* She is copycating Jackie.

  • RUM

    IWhen a guy has a toned, gina-tingling bod, our host spugged out the hopelessly honest words: “Your Hawt.”
    Well, why not just lay it out there. ? Honesty is cool even when it ratifies every guys suspician that his dates would be wetter in their panties & jeans if he were more buffed up.
    BioMechanics is not really God. But it is Gods messenger.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Well, why not just lay it out there. ? Honesty is cool even when it ratifies every guys suspician that his dates would be wetter in their panties & jeans if he were more buffed up.

      Isn’t that what I did? For the record, I zoomed in on that photo to see what I could of Cooper’s face. Though we can only see the bottom half, it’s clear he’s handsome, barring Marty Feldman eyes or something.

      But yeah, guys with cut, moderately hairy chests are going to get attention from women. Is this news? Just this week during a convo about alpha and beta I pointed out that we were neglecting perhaps the most important determinant of who women find attractive: looks.

      Anyway, the response to Cooper is one of surprise because he has felt unsuccessful with women, despite his natural advantage.

  • Jackie

    @Ana
    “@Everyone
    Mary and Julianne *Plain Pane alert* She is copycating Jackie.”
    ======
    :cry:

    I will let Darth speak for me:

  • Mike C

    So what is the problem? This is not computing for me. Is it that you are an LTR kind of guy in a sea of STR kind of girls?

    I’m speculating a bit, but I think it is a congruence issue and that is parsed together from bits and pieces of several comments including descriptions of some of the crowd he hangs with. Cooper’s outward appearance probably sends one message (for example Obey T-shirts) but his personality says something else. You’ve got a few women saying they find that particular image offputting in this thread (Mary and Julianne) and no offense but my guess is they probably lean more towards the beta end of the spectrum.

    Again, I’m speculating but I think to summarize you have a “look” and a crowd that maybe attracts more “hook-up” type girls but the personality turns them off to that while at the same more LTR oriented girls are probably disinterested once they see a certain outward image. If I was trying to find a LTR with a good church girl I wouldn’t show up in an Affliction t-shirt.

    I’ll say that women don’t quite know what to make of a guy that seems to have a more alpha outward appearance, but leans very heavily towards beta personality traits. Either move your appearance more in the beta direction or alpha up your personality depending on what your primary objectives are, and what type of women you want to attract.

  • Mike C

    Mike C, I agree. Absolutely. A 5’5/145 pound PUA may have to play up the dominance act because his ability to actually physically dominate a fit woman—let’s imagine that she went feral for some reason and attacked him—could actually be in question.

    Yeah, that might be part of it, but I think it has more to do with that “badass” thing you mentioned once. On the surface, a 5’5″ 145 lb guy is probably starting with a “badass” value of 0-1 whereas a guy who is 6’4″ 250 is starting with a “badass” value of 9-10. I think the main thing is that a guy who is already bringing a lot of obvious outward dominance has to be careful of “overgaming” to use PUA speak whereas a guy who doesn’t have much outward dominance has to work harder to establish that frame initially.

    If you ever have a chance, my friend, please link me to some of your previous calibration discussions or steer me that way. I’d very much enjoy reading them.

    To be truthful, it wasn’t anything in super depth that you probably don’t already know. But often people will criticize cocky/funny, or negs, or whatever/take your pick, and it isn’t that the core concept is off, but that the guy just may have overused something. One thing I have come to appreciate more is that I really do think women are on a spectrum so there is no one size fits all calibration. I”m comfortable saying 99.99% of women don’t want a supplicating pedestalizer, but how far you amp up the cockiness/aloofness/teasing/etc, from there probably varies quite a bit. Wudang had a comment somewhere about which women are attracted to which masculine traits that crystallized some stuff for me and allowed me to kind of reconcile personal observation with discussion here.

  • Emily

    I think Cooper actually IS the mythical sexy beta “Farm Boy” that Ramble was describing earlier! ;)

    I have a few quick thoughts:
    * I’d be cautious about doing the whole abs-and-mirror thing on social media profiles (Facebook etc.). Pics like that can sometimes give off a sleezy vibe. I’d recommend having a more low-key (but still handsome!) profile pic and have pics like that slightly buried. (I realize that you probably already know this, but I figured I’d mention it just in case). Trust me, girls are expert Facebook stalkers. Even if you “hide” it a bit, she’ll find it!

    * The fact that you actually give off a pretty “Alpha” vibe probably means that you’ll need to do all the initiating/approaching. I don’t think that you need to downplay your looks (I actually don’t think you should!), but realize that some girls might be intimidated. For example, I think you’re more than capable of getting somebody like Jackie, but you’d almost certainly have to make the first move. But once you get her talking to you, I’m sure the “beta/comfort” traits will come out naturally.

  • Californio

    There was a great french movie from the 1950′s about truck drivers delivering nitrogylcerin to a construction site over bumpy mountain roads. Very suspenseful – hit the bump wrong = boom! or get too close to the edge of the mountain road and …..crash off the side of the mountain (and them …boom!)

    I mention this because this is what men have to do with their relationships with women. And women get to “explode” for no reason – they just “felt” it. Alpha! er, no Beta!..no… a perfect, constantly changing mixture of the two! While a Jessica Biel may be worth it, a Lena Dunham.. (vomits in mouth) *cough* ….is….NOT.

    [thanks for Deborah Ann Woll reference - I looked her up, and if she were in a cheerleader uniform she'd be a dead ringer for my high school girlfriend.....ah, high school! goodtimes!]

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @mike c @cooper:
    Well, heres where i jump back in:
    Mike cs definitely on point with his commentary to/re: cooper, but i just wanted to add a few things.

    First off, coopers congruence is way off. If hes gonna roll per the profile pic hes got up, hes setting a fairly high bar for himself. Women see that and get their hopes all up, and when they find out youre more like clark kent than kal el, its a serious lady boner killer. Gotta pick a horse and ride with it.

    As one of the shorter guys here let me say that i have never had a problem being perceived as “little” or anything like that; i think its the way that i carry myself, which is “big”. It truly is a mindset. And to tell you the truth, militarily speaking the badasses are more my size (5’8″, 165-170lbs, 42-44 Atheletic suit size). Because for women, attraction triggers are much more psychological than merely physical, what it really comes down to for a man is how “hard” his grey matter-not his abs are. Ive seen plenty of male eyecandy looking like shemar moore or boris kodjoe utterly strikeout, and guys like style clean up. Yea, ideally a guy wants the best of both worlds-leading man looks/height and solid game, and on occasion such a guy comes along. But for the vast majority of guys this doesnt happen much; a guy will find himself on one side or the other and will have to learn how to compensate.

    As for clothing: definitely agree with getting gear that properly fits, though i am NOT a fan of them “skinny jeans” etc. As my avi suggests i like gear thats both urban and “street” but at the same time its highly utilitarian. But whichever way you go do understand that youre sending a message about yourself. What are you telling others?

    O.

  • Marellus

    @Obsidian #73

    Proof if there ever was, one, of what the true intent and purpose of Roissy/Heartiste. The “Game” stuff, while accurate most of the time, is nevertheless a cover for just having a forum with which to make outrageous statements which attract disaffected and often very angry readers.

    Did you read the comments on his Eye Contact Game post ?

    A woman commented thus :

    I’m a girl and IMO, the problem with your suggested openers is that they sound über-douchey.. Unless your confidence is off the chain and u have ‘moves like jagger’ most guys aren’t pulling this off without eliciting eye rolls and ‘weirdo’ looks. No one talks like this. (well the one about if u wanted to talk to me, u should have come over is kinda cute) I wouldn’t recommend these for beginners. I’d suggest more casual normal convo. Like if she’s sitting at the bar and it’s busy, say something like ‘geez what do I have to do to get this bartenders attention?’ or ask her if it would be girly if you ordered a mojito, etc. Or like some people said, if she’s reading something on a phone/kindle, u could say “looks interesting, what are u reading?” etc. Keep it basic. If it comes off too rehearsed or contrived, girls are going to be looking like ‘huh?’ ‘you talking to me?’

    I was at a bar in Boston over the weekend, and I was trying to get a drink and there was this platform thing under the bar so I stood on it to get the bartenders attention. The guy next to me looked up at me and stepped up on the platform too and leaned in and said something like “Hey good idea, maybe ill get a drink now… hey I’m ‘John’ by the way, whats ur name?” etc. etc. I have a boyfriend but I thought it was a casual/natural/unoffensive way to open and he seemed like a cool guy I might have talked to otherwise.

    Whenever guys approach me with horrible game its mainly due to bad timing. Like if I have my earphones on (which I often do since I live in NYC) coming up and trying to strike up a conversation out of the blue, I’m gonna be scrambling to turn down the volume or press pause and Ive already missed the first part of whatever you were trying to say. Then when you go to repeat it and its some corny a$$ sh*t or out of the blue question I’m going to be either confused or annoyed. Also guys tend to ask too many what I call “filler” questions too early in the convo like “so, do you work around here? Oh you do, what do you do there? How long have you been working there, do you like it, etc. To me, you’re still a complete stranger and I’m not quite ready to start telling you my whole life story and likes/dislikes within the first five minutes of convo. Especially when you haven’t even got to the point yet like “hey, Im so-and-so, do you have a business card, maybe we could grab lunch one day” etc. So all while ur running down ur list of filler questions, in my head, I’m like, ok, please just get to the part where u ask me if I have a boyfriend or whatever so I can get rid of you. You should make your intentions known from the gate or at least get the flirting/playful vibe going cause every girl knows that if a guy is sitting there asking a bunch of questions whats eventually coming.. Youre just drawing it out unnecessarily and I have no incentive to keep engaging you if you’re ‘hiding your hand’ so to speak out of fear or nervousness.

    I know my comments wont be popular and the word bitch/cunt will be quick to be tossed around.. I’m just keeping it real from a girl’s perspective.

    It generated 12 responses, of which the majority were not complimentary.

    And their common theme : Never take Game advice from a girl.

    Ha.

  • Markku

    I have always thought that girls next door = cute, and that those girls are generally not casual sex types.

    It probably would be if the expression “girl next door” didn’t have a porn meaning. What you are getting with that description is almost certainly not a literal girl next door. Of course, “cute” does have such a meaning too, but it is counteracted by the fact that it is used very often in real life.

    I’d say that there are 10/10 girls that fit the “cute” description better than “hot”, although “hot” will always not be far from the truth for them either. However, “cute” -region goes lower in 1-10 score than “hot” -region. What porn does is that it selects from the absolute upper end of the “cute” region and calls them “girls next door”.

  • Just1X

    “barring Marty Feldman eyes or something”

    thanks for that. most amusing, even if it’s an age giveaway for us both.

    The best advice (that I think I believe) for a facebook shot is a guy asleep = non-threatening. Clearly capturing abs in a photo of him asleep, should be the money shot…FWIW

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Mike, just to add to your observations: I think that someone can end up cannibalizing his own accomplishment(s) in a given domain if he insists on continually qualifying himself to others. The UFC heavyweight or light heavy in your example can safely assume that he can kick anyone’s ass in the bar or club—in a straight, unarmed fight, at least—unless it is a bar or club that for some reason is frequented by UFC fighters. He shouldn’t need to mention it and it would detract from the “professionalism” effect if he did—the contextual subtext of almost all of his social interactions will feature the implicit threat of total physical dominance.

    I think there is a primal, initial filter that people tend to measure each other by that really understands only Sex, Money, and Violence. If a man successfully clears that hurdle, he may be good to go (in a shallow, relatively unsophisticated Jersey Shore type setting that prioritizes raw physical tools). More discerning members of the population may need him to clear a second hurdle and demonstrate intellectual capacity, the ability to articulate complex thoughts, “culture vulture” refinement, interesting conversation/storytelling, etc. Still others—perhaps a much smaller group than the first two—may need him to jump over yet a third hurdle and establish that he’s not a total dick.

    A dude still trying to clear Hurdle 1 might not want to focus on what a nice guy he is, since he still needs to establish that he’s got the raw physical and economic tools needed to be a winner in a highly competitive SMP. Your UFC badass, however, got out of his Carrera GT and effortlessly cleared Hurdle 1. He doesn’t need to go back and jump over it again and again; it’s behind him, it’s done. He should be thinking ahead and anticipating the other hurdles.

  • Markku

    Words like “adorable” are probably better for 10/10 cuties, because the word “cute” is so often used as a booby prize for average girls that fail to be hot, that it is the first impression you’ll probably have when you hear “cute”.

  • Escoffier

    I always preferred cute to hot. “Cute” to me connotates “If you talk to me, I will at least let you down easy.” “Hot” implies the risk of an icy rejection. Yeah, mixed metaphor.

  • Escoffier

    They are expensive, but custom shirts off the best bang t0 buck ratio in clothing. And, if you know what you are doing and are patient, you can get them for reasonable amounts of money, far less than what a lot of RTW stuff costs.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Cute vs. Hot.

    To me cute has always involved an element of innocence. Hot has always been more of an ‘I got tits and I know it’ vibe. Hot typically only applies to the upper numbers. Cute tends to apply more downward but the women qualified as cute (to men) are still beautiful, maybe not model gorgeous but above avaerage.

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    I’m actuslly only 23. Your definitely right about being prone to oneitis, ect.
    It is why my faith in relationship has, somewhat, been shaken. Because everything I do that signals LTR-orientation turns women off (with lightening speed), and implementing any STR-stragedy can really get them going. (which in turn practically turns me off)

    I just don’t like how I have to pretend to be seeing other girls, or am willing to walk away. Have to deliver a opener from over your sholder, after you already walked by, coming from an indirect path, ect. Just to subconsciously give the impression I was walking towards some else. (readying game earlier)
    Why is it that showing direct interest can send a girl running for the hills? (and this included girls that do know me, and no my dating life (lack there of) – as well as strangeres.
    Which reminds me why I don’t like preselection too. I don’t want to have to be “spinning plates” to be seen as a catch. I realize it can be a mentality, but I don’t necessarily have that ‘I can find anyother girl’ attitude either.

    I don’t like game, but my life is full of evidence of why any alternate method is sure to fail. I’m pretty MGTOW now-a-days.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      implementing any STR-stragedy can really get them going. (which in turn practically turns me off)

      I just don’t like how I have to pretend to be seeing other girls, or am willing to walk away. Have to deliver a opener from over your sholder, after you already walked by, coming from an indirect path, ect. Just to subconsciously give the impression I was walking towards some else. (readying game earlier)
      Why is it that showing direct interest can send a girl running for the hills? (and this included girls that do know me, and no my dating life (lack there of) — as well as strangeres.
      Which reminds me why I don’t like preselection too. I don’t want to have to be “spinning plates” to be seen as a catch. I realize it can be a mentality, but I don’t necessarily have that ‘I can find anyother girl’ attitude either.

      IMO, you should never have to pretend to be something you are not. You may have to pretend to be a little less than you are. Let me explain.

      1. I think pretending to see other girls is an asshole move. If a girl wants that from you, she’s unworthy for a LTR. IMO a better strategy is to focus on one girl as long as you sense she is interested. By focus I mean spend your time on her and escalate sexually – we want you to try, even if we intend to say no. However, do not:

      Text frequently
      Thank her profusely for spending time with you
      Eagerly jump the gun on planning the next date
      Express your feelings before mutual emotional intimacy has been established via spending time together and sharing personal stories, etc.

      IOW, don’t show your hand! You want her to work for it, and we want to work for it. It raises your value in our eyes if we have to fret about whether we can “catch” you. This is because it implies the opposite of desperation, and that is that you have options and all the time in the world. We want you to play it cool. If a woman ever uses the word “eager” to describe you to her friends, it’s over.

      2. Delivering over the shoulder openers, making cocky funny comments about her outfit (Hmmmm, what an interesting necklace…), pretending you have to be somewhere and leaving – all this is appropriate for barflies. That is not your target market.

      For the women you seek, the ones who will reward you for and with romance, friendly and direct hellos are the way to go. Be the good guy, but be the confident good guy, not the Nice Guy TM. No supplication, just a friendly vibe. With your looks you need to be more approachable, and that is how to achieve it.

      3. Spinning plates is for losers. The only reason to do it is so that you have a Plan B if and when you get rejected. That only works if pussy is the goal. You’re not going to be spinning LTR plates, that makes no sense.

      OTOH, it is essential that you remember that you can find another girl because….you can. There are many women who would be delighted to be seen with you. You have no business acting like a guy who can’t get a date because one look at you and no girl is going to believe that. I could wing for you tonight and get you three dates. :)

      You don’t need to cultivate an abundance mentality that is “fake it till you make it” because you already will have an abundance of options for casual sex. Most women will assume that’s your preference. So the mindset you need is one that says, I can get girls for ONSs on the reg, but I’m thinking about settling down, and now I need to find a really extraordinary girl who’s worth it.

      Jason and Zach would be good people to get advice from too. They’re both your age, both good looking, and have both had some beta experiences IIRC where they went head over heels and got burned.

  • JP

    Reading Roissy always puts me in a very foul mood. So, I avoid him at all costs.

    Why wouldn’t Cooper want to “commit way too early”?

    The only time that I’ve ever gone after a woman was when I already determined that she met marriage criteria. I have done so precisely two times in my life.

    My decision was already made before asking her out. This is not true for women who have gone after me. I generally get rid of them because it was their criteria that drew them to me, *not* my criteria that drew me to them.

    Why would you want to waste the time otherwise?

  • Carmen

    @Cooper
    “Why is it that showing direct interest can send a girl running for the hills?”

    I think this is because girls distrust guys who seem very interested in them, without knowing each other well or having just met. When this is the case, all a guy really knows about the girl (and pays attention to) is her looks. And most girls realize this, which is why I think that “running for the hills” after direct interest is a filter for guys who are only interested in sleeping with her.

    For example, a cute guy I met two days before Valentine’s Day send me a very romantic card on the day itself. That made me think “oh wow, take it easy there, you have no idea who I am!”. I interpreted this gesture as him thinking “she looks good, I want to go to bed with her so I will act all romantic to accomplish this asap!”. Which made me feel that I had to make clear that that was NOT going to happen (other girls might have just run for the hills…).

    Turns out he was interested in more, and wanted to get to know me better, so I overreacted a lil’ bit, haha. But still, at the time he didn’t really know anything about me, so I concluded he was just after what he DID know about me – what I look like, and that he therefore he only wanted to sleep with me.

    This is just my experience though, maybe other girls are completely different and perhaps it’s not a filter at all. And I guess this doesn’t apply to situations where the guy and girl already know each other quite well. But thankfully there’s plenty of people here to correct me on this :p

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Carmen

      Great comment there about why women are wary of strongly expressed interest too early. Basically, women have numerous reasons for not wanting a guy to fall for them based on looks alone:

      1. As you noted, fear that all he wants is sex, because he is failing to qualify us for compatibility, a prerequisite for any good relationship.

      2. We are objectified our whole lives by the media, culture, and yes, men. Most of us are desperate to find someone who likes “the real me.”

      3. Fear that the guy will lose interest when he finds out we are not really a “sex goddess.”

      4. Suspicion that going all in from day one indicates some sort of desperation – “Why is he so eager to close the deal in just a few days?” Desperation implies a lack of options, so it’s the opposite of social proof.

  • Carmen

    Wait, I said that wrong. Running for the hills isn’t a filter, it’s a response to direct interest because girls interpret direct interest as a guy only going for their looks. I don’t know where I got the “filter” part from, sorry haha.

  • SayWhaat

    Cooper, my two cents. Feel free to disregard.

    Carmen and Mike C are right on. You’re projecting an image that is turning off the LTR-minded girls from you, and it is incongruent with your actual romantic interests (which turn off the STR-minded girls). For instance, I would probably never think to strike up a conversation with a guy wearing an OBEY shirt because I would automatically assume that he’s a P&D type of guy (that, and something about that vibe just makes me think he doesn’t have the same intellectual interests, either).

    You’re in a better position than most other guys, though. I think that if you just change your image (and maybe the company you keep), you could be on track to getting the sweet beta “girl next door” of your dreams. ;)

    There is a BIG DIFFERENCE in how I respond to this guy: http://www.mltd.com/images/T/44-65.jpg (Douche)

    And this guy: http://www.celebitchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/wenn10278538.jpg (Ladyboner)

    Check out r/malefashionadvice for tips on how to change your style. Yeah, they’re pretentious pricks, but they’ve got some good suggestions. I have the utmost confidence that if you changed your style, you’d get some LTR hotties sniffing around. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      FWIW, the beta loving girls I know swoon over button down shirts. “OMG he wore a gingham shirt, so adorable!” While you don’t want to project eagerness, you do want to project earnestness. You need to avoid anything cocky or you’re going to read: PLAYER.

  • szopen

    @californio
    “There was a great french movie from the 1950′s about truck drivers delivering nitrogylcerin”

    Yeah! Great movie. I was a kid when I saw it for the first time :) And it has +1 for one of heroes being Polish nobles :)))

    @J
    “I wish I could help with that, but I’ve never been attracted to douchebags”

    sure, NAWALT. But I would believe you only if some douchebag would go to you, actively trying to game you, and you would still give him firm f*off without having to fight off some of your instincts. Otherwise, is like saying “I am resistant to alcohol” without trying few shots of vodka (one shot is not enough, unless it is within an u-boot coctail).

    As other have said, so many males have witnessed it, in so many different countries, that there have to be so grain of truth in “girls are attracted to arseholes”. And most of those girls would say that they are NOT attracted to arseholes, jerks and so on. Most of them would definetely believe in what they say.

    I saw a lot of girls who were all about how they hate douchebags, until they were “gamed” by them. My first “almost-girlfriend” who was your typical girl-next0door –very intelectual, she was visiting me to borrow books, we talks about those books (yeah, really, would you believe it?). Then a new boy entered a class, he was arsehole. End of story.

    I had also witnessed my collegues (not friends, a friend is an intimate word) bedding girls who i would never even think would do it. The biggest eye opener ever was when i witnessed my friend sleeping with a girl he met just a day before, very catholic, from rural area, and he asked her “why you are allowing me to do it?” and she became red and said “I don’t know”. NONE of those girls were attracted to douchebags.

    @obsidian
    you could be right with saying that roissy popularity may be due to “outrage” :) I was trying to think why the roissy blog is so attractive to me and the only explanation is that i am a sorry a*e bitter about all those woman who prefferred my collegues :) After all, i know why I am reading athol and susan,(to improve my marriage and get female perspective). But why I am following Roissy?

  • Travis

    re: cute vs. hot-

    “To me cute has always involved an element of innocence. Hot has always been more of an ‘I got tits and I know it’ vibe.”

    Exactly the way I see it. If you’re a girl whose only interested in STR’s, aim for hot. But if you’re looking for a LTR, you’re best bet is to go with “cute”. Which kinda’ ties in to the whole Cooper discussion. At least from my point of view. I have no problem finding (or attracting) “hot” girls. But I have a REALLY hard time seeing any of them as LTR material. Cute, sweet, somewhat innocent is LTR material.

    Unfortunately, it seems to me that all the attractive young girls (at least in my social circle) want to be Britney Spears or Christina Agulera, and none of them want to be Taylor Swift. Which is great if all you’re a guy who just wants to get laid. But for a guy like myself (and I’m assuming Cooper), who prefers LTR’s, the pickings are pretty damn slim…

    Personally, if I’m presented with a Britney type and a Taylor type, it comes down to this: If I’m looking for a night of crazy sex, I’m gonna’ go with Britney. But after that night of crazy sex, I’m gonna’ be moving on. On the other hand, if I’m looking for a girlfriend, I’m gonna’ go with Taylor. And chances are I’m still gonna’ be with her when Britney is getting old, and looking around wondering where all the guys went.

    I think their are a lot of good looking guys out there looking for a Taylor and only seeing Britney’s. Eventually those guys give up and just say “The hell with it. If I can’t find a decent girlfriend, I might as well have fun.” (which is where I’m at). Or they MGTOW (which is where it sounds like Coop is at…).

  • Travis

    By the way, in my experience, the Britney/Christina girls are ultimately looking for LTR’s, not P&D’s. They just seem to think that the way to go about getting it is to put off an “I’m a badass, sexy bitch” vibe. While that approach definitely gets them male attention, it doesn’t get them the attention that they want. Guys don’t want to girlfriend a “bad ass, sexy bitch”. If the physical attractiveness is even close to equal, IME any guy even remotely looking for anything deeper than a roll in the hay is gonna go with the “cute”, sweet, innocent (by that I don’t mean virgin. I just mean a girl who isn’t constantly trying to ooze sex) type. I just wish more girls would understand that. More is more if you’re looking for sex. Less is more if you’re looking for a relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Travis

      By the way, in my experience, the Britney/Christina girls are ultimately looking for LTR’s, not P&D’s. They just seem to think that the way to go about getting it is to put off an “I’m a badass, sexy bitch” vibe. While that approach definitely gets them male attention, it doesn’t get them the attention that they want. Guys don’t want to girlfriend a “bad ass, sexy bitch”.

      Interesting, so it’s a way of presenting oneself that may not be related to promiscuity?

      It sounds like the guys are saying there are very few women around who are genuinely feminine, and I would have to agree. I rarely see or meet one. It might be time for another post on femininity.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, your photo is really distracting because the lower part of your face looks SO MUCH like my husband’s face when he was your age. He didn’t have quite as much muscle then, but he had the pecs for sure.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Markku

    the word “cute” is so often used as a booby prize for average girls that fail to be hot, that it is the first impression you’ll probably have when you hear “cute”.

    I’ve often thought this, too, and the standard compliment guys used to give me back in the day was “cute.” I suppose I do have the shy, sweet, innocent, goodie-two-shoes vibe going for me, but then the guys get to know me and are surprised by how cynical I can be. >.>

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    I’ve always thought it has something to do with low self worth.

    “I’m not worth it, why does he think so?”

    It’s amazing how little some women think of themselves, as if they truly believe it when they say “I’m useless.” (which I’ve heard plenty of times)
    And when they come across a guy who does appreciate them – something is wrong with HIM. I think it’s the other way around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s amazing how little some women think of themselves, as if they truly believe it when they say “I’m useless.” (which I’ve heard plenty of times)
      And when they come across a guy who does appreciate them — something is wrong with HIM. I think it’s the other way around.

      Cooper, that is a female head case – no bueno. Not LTR material AT ALL. For one thing, those are the women who have the most casual sex in a never ending attempt to get validation of their worth. This can include some very attractive women, so be careful.

      You want a girl who is flattered to receive the attention, but not shocked. If she asks “Why me?” or anything like that, drive on. No girl should question a man for his attention or even his appreciation. But you must calibrate.

      Seriously, if you have a tendency to get serious too soon, you should enlist a buddy to help you chill, someone who you can run questions by. Or at least every time you are tempted to be mushy, dial it down by at least half.

      We don’t want to be rejected, but we can’t believe you are the prize if you can be won with zero effort.

      Men want to work hard for sex. Women want to work hard for commitment. This is immutable.

  • JP

    I think I’ve figured out why reading Roissy is bad for me.

    Since I’m a perfectionist expanionistic puritan moralist idealist at heart, it makes me want to start throwing the human race into the abattoir.

    I would have made a great Roundhead. Unfortunately, I was born three centuries too late. I’m just glad that I’m through my militant anti-Catholic anti-Mormon phase.

    Nothing like arguing with your Mormon girlfriend about the inherent corruption of Mormonism. Based on personal experience, I recommend *not* getting into a heated argument with your girlfriend about the idiocy of her religion.

    “Must think happy thoughts!”

    “Fluffy pink bunnies!”

    “Fluffy pink bunnies!”

    “People are not completely depraved.”

    “People are nice.”

    “Fluffy pink bunnies.”

  • Escoffier

    As a style matter, an open collar with points that don’t button says to me either “club rat playa” or “poor soul who doesn’t know how to dress.” If your shirt buttons up the front and you want to wear it without a tie, the collar points should button too.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan Walsh

    Interesting, so it’s a way of presenting oneself that may not be related to promiscuity?

    It sounds like the guys are saying there are very few women around who are genuinely feminine, and I would have to agree. I rarely see or meet one. It might be time for another post on femininity.

    It depends on what you mean by “feminine”. Personally, I see three categories of good looks. The first is “hot”, which denotes the kind of girl that wears sunglasses, a low cut top, short pants, and has her hair died blonde. The second is “cute”, which denotes the kind of girl that wears regular clothes like t-shirts. The third is “pretty”, which denotes the type of girl that wears a skirt, lots of makeup, and has a very intricate hairstyle.

    When someone says “feminine”, I think of that third category. Personally, I only like “cute”. Back in high school, there were a lot of cute girls :), but it feels like once they get older they started trying to look “hot” (that or all the cute girls stay indoors or something). It feels like most college-age girls who try to dress “cute” are very overweight or obese. :(

  • Cooper

    “You want her to work for it, and we want to work for it. It raises your value in our eyes if we have to fret about whether we can “catch” you.”

    This kind of think just rubs me the wrong way. I don’t like the idea of having to inflate my value, in her eyes, by withholding interest. To me, that sounds like trying to get a girl – who has no attraction towards you – to sleep with you. It’s like getting a bull riled up by waving around red – I don’t want a attraction built on gimmicks.
    Plus, I also think that any girl can switch from unsure, to attracted, and then to potentially head-over-heels, has a great potential of doing a similar progress within a marriage. (honeymoon-lust, to only satisfied, to unattracted, all the way back to disqualification)
    This ability to move through different phases of attraction signals, at least to me, that a similar progression out of attraction is just as possible.

    From the sounds of it you’re saying typical Game (STR-stragedies) aren’t ideal for LTR searching. Isn’t that what has been recommend to me until now – learn game? The major difference between beta and alpha, at least IMO, is aiming for either STR/LTR. Suggesting Game, cause it has evidence of working, implies STR-orientation is what is attractive.

    “1. I think pretending to see other girls is an asshole move.”
    It’s quintessentially how Game suggests to deliver openers.

    ” you already will have an abundance of options for casual sex. Most women will assume that’s your preference.”
    What do think female friends think when I explicitly don’t pursue casual options? I get the feeling they think “something is wrong.”

    And then there’s the whole lack of experience issue – which I’ve seen prove to be another attraction killer. (which again says there is a particular “fake it to ya make it” necessary)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      I don’t like the idea of having to inflate my value, in her eyes, by withholding interest. To me, that sounds like trying to get a girl — who has no attraction towards you — to sleep with you. It’s like getting a bull riled up by waving around red — I don’t want a attraction built on gimmicks.

      I’ll share with you something I’ve often said to my own kids when they are impatient to get a result fast. A good example is interviewing for a job. They interview on Tuesday, expect a call on Wednesday, and are frantic by Friday. I remind them that “Their sense of urgency is not the same as your sense of urgency.” The employer may take 3 or 4 weeks to interview people. The worst thing you can do is contact them repeatedly while waiting to hear. They are trying to make up their minds about whether you’re the best person for the job, and it is not in your best interests to hound them. Though it is certainly a good idea to follow up with an expression of interest and a desire to further explore whether there might be a match.

      It’s the same with relationships. A woman needs some time to intelligently evaluate whether you would be a good boyfriend match for her. You need some time too. Each of you should be evaluating the other – what is the state of your relationships? With family? Friends? Are you a hard worker? How do you treat people around you? Do you share a similar sense of humor? etc. etc. As Hope said, this may happen in two weeks, it may take three months. It really depends, but you’ve got to log the time to get to know the other person before you can make an informed judgment. Both parties need that, and women are suspicious of men who don’t require it.

      I had one relationship that was love at first sight in college. It was super intense – we wrapped ourselves in a cocoon and barely came up for air. It blazed for six months, but it burned out. We couldn’t sustain the infatuation forever, and once we got really well acquainted, it was clear we were not that compatible. If you want the real deal, you need to pace yourself and qualify the woman.

      What do think female friends think when I explicitly don’t pursue casual options? I get the feeling they think “something is wrong.”

      Then you need new friends. I’m serious. A man who confidently states “I don’t do casual” or “I’m very selective” when everyone knows he can? That’s high value. It’s a female fantasy come true. But then you need to follow that up by pursuing a woman who doesn’t do casual. What people think is “wrong” for a 23 yo guy is asexuality or celibacy.

      And then there’s the whole lack of experience issue — which I’ve seen prove to be another attraction killer.

      The way I see it, you have two choices. You can either get some casual experience under your belt (heh) or focus on one girl you like. I will get flamed for this, no doubt, but I personally would recommend the former. Just log some time in the sack. If you don’t want to do that, then target one person, but you need to escalate from the start. Kiss the first night, heavy makeout the second. Push the limits until she says Stop. And if you get an LJBF, drive on without looking back.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    Instead of a post on Femininity, I sure could use a episode by episode analysis of the next season’s Bachelor/Bachelorette.

    My wife watches that show and I sure could use some color commentary.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      Instead of a post on Femininity, I sure could use a episode by episode analysis of the next season’s Bachelor/Bachelorette.

      Sorry, I don’t watch it. I enjoyed doing the series on Girls this spring. This summer my husband and I have done a Breaking Bad marathon of four seasons, and I actually think about Game a lot when watching it because the main character has gone from milquetoast to badass in the most amazing way.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    Holy Hell Coops!!!! Holy Hell!!!

    *Proceeds to fan myself*

    :lol:

    Haha, looking good, Coop!

    @ Carmen:

    Wait, I said that wrong. Running for the hills isn’t a filter, it’s a response to direct interest because girls interpret direct interest as a guy only going for their looks. I don’t know where I got the “filter” part from, sorry haha.

    Eh, I’m sure this make sense for girls who get hit on by strangers. But IME, direct interest is well received IF there’s mutual interest. That goes for both genders, too. Showing direct interest isn’t going to get a guy/girl anywhere unless the person is already attracted to them.

    I wouldn’t run from the hills if a guy I was interested in directly asked me out. I would turn the guy down if I wasn’t attracted to him or sense other dealbreakers I knew of (say he didn’t want to get married ever, or if he was missing teeth – very different examples, but examples nonetheless!).

  • Travis

    @Susan,
    “Interesting, so it’s a way of presenting oneself that may not be related to promiscuity?”

    Sometimes. And sometimes not. I’ve had quite a few genuinely promiscuous girls and “reformed slut” types try to lock down exclusive relationships before.
    But I’ve also known quite a few girls who weren’t slutty or bad ass try to “slut it up” in regards to the way they dress and the way they talk because (I’m assuming) they think it’s what guys want. And in a way, they’re right. They’re constantly bombarded by the media with women like Christina, Britney, and pseudo porn star Kim Kardashian. And they hear all they guys talking about how “hot” they are. Guys DO fantasize about banging those chicks. But I’ve never heard a guy say he’d like to marry one of those women.
    My theory is that it’s kinda the male version of the cad/dad meme. According to you, most women want “dad’s”. But their actions show that they’re a hell of a lot more turned on by the “cad” type. Doesn’t mean they’re gonna act on it, but when most women think “hot and sexy”, the bad boy type is what they’re thinking of. But I doubt many of them want to get into a LTR or marry that type. Still, a lot of guys see women drooling over that kind of guy. Which is why you see all these beta’s trying to learn how to “act” more alpha.
    I think the same thing has been going on with girls for a while. They see the guys drooling over the Britney/Christina/Kim types (the female version of cads), but they don’t realize that most guys would rather have a LTR with the Taylor types (the female version of dads). So just like the betas who try to give off more of a “player” vibe in order to ramp up sexual attraction, these girls try to give off more of a “bad ass” slutty vibe to ramp up sexual attraction.
    The problem is that they don’t understand that sexual attraction doesn’t always mean that a guy is going to be interested BEYOND sex. In fact, if they go too far, it can easily have the opposite affect. Guys DQ them as a relationship prospect BECAUSE they’re giving off too much of a “slut” vibe. Just like a lot of women will DQ a guy with too much of a “player” vibe.
    Now, keep in mind I’m blue collar, which nowadays pretty much means LMC. I don’t know how things are in your neck of the woods. But the girls down here are VERY sexualized. Even when they don’t have super high N”s.
    I know he’s off in Vegas, but I’m pretty sure Ted would know EXACTLY what I’m talking about…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Travis

      So just like the betas who try to give off more of a “player” vibe in order to ramp up sexual attraction, these girls try to give off more of a “bad ass” slutty vibe to ramp up sexual attraction.

      That’s brilliant, I think you’re right. There’s no doubt that women are trading on their sexuality today – we’ve basically instructed them to do so. I had to run interference constantly to prevent my daughter from absorbing that message, and I wasn’t entirely successful. The culture is overwhelmingly influential.

  • Travis

    @Susan,
    Reading back over it I realize that post might have sounded kinda’ convoluted. To summarize, I think everybody seems to be trying win over the opposite sex by becoming their “sexual” ideal, as opposed to their LTR ideal. Not realizing that those two things are oftentimes very different. Then we wonder why the hook up culture is thriving, but the marriage/ LTR culture is dying.

  • Cooper

    “Men want to work hard for sex. Women want to work hard for commitment. This is immutable.”

    I’m not so sure I understand this.

    Do guys really enjoy working hard for sex?
    I know we sure as hell want to know that she has been discerning in regard of other men, but beyond confirming that (with a fair amount of certainty), we don’t think we have any preference against receiving sex easily.

    And what part about getting a man to commit is enjoyable for women?
    Is that after being sexual for a while, and then wanting him to commit to remain receiving what he’s already getting? Why would it be enjoyable to work for him to stay?
    Wouldn’t women like it if the guy they’re already seeing (as in he’s already pasted the ‘gates’) shows he is happy to stay – rather than seeing him considering moving on, and having to convince him to stay satifisied?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      I know we sure as hell want to know that she has been discerning in regard of other men, but beyond confirming that (with a fair amount of certainty), we don’t think we have any preference against receiving sex easily.

      The best way you can confirm that – indeed the only way – is if she delays sex, even with you, to be sure of filtering out men who might P&D her. If she requires some commitment of resources from you (not $) before sex, or at least a clear statement of LTR interest, you can be sure she is not a slut (and probably never was). You want to find a woman who will make you wait for sex.

      And what part about getting a man to commit is enjoyable for women?
      Is that after being sexual for a while, and then wanting him to commit to remain receiving what he’s already getting? Why would it be enjoyable to work for him to stay?

      No, we want the commitment before sex, or more realistically today, concurrent with sex.

      Here’s what is enjoyable for women in the early days before we know where we stand:

      We love to analyze your every move, every stare across the room. We discuss this with our friends for hours! It’s a great feeling to have something brewing, and to share that with other women. It’s like any good drama – there is uncertainty, perhaps some conflict, and then resolution. You don’t want the end of the story before the journey has begun. If we aren’t sure how you feel, if perhaps we know that so-and-so thinks you’re cute, or that you have been seen talking to some girl, it’s torture! But then if we win the prize, if you choose us, it is such a sweet victory! Women are emotional, we love this stuff. In fact, most women would rather have a little drama and be disappointed, than have no intrigue at all.

      We love the anticipation of a slow build. Our stomachs flop over at the thought of the first kiss (Do guys experience this?). We want to prolong the agonizing pleasure of waiting until the time is right. For women at least, the difference between drunken hookup sex and finally getting with a guy you’re hot for is night and day. And one of the ways we get hot is if you make us wait to know how much you like us.

      This may turn you off – I know you’re unhappy about these truths. To me, this sounds natural and fun! In fact, I’m thinking I’m going to go watch a rom com right now!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper

    Plus, I also think that any girl can switch from unsure, to attracted, and then to potentially head-over-heels, has a great potential of doing a similar progress within a marriage (honeymoon-lust, to only satisfied, to unattracted, all the way
    back to disqualification)

    So… you expect a girl to fall head-over-heels immediately? Or be perpetually lukewarm? I don’t understand this.

    I went from unusure, to attracted, to completely in love with my husband. That’s how a normal relationship starts. I’m still deeply in love with him. I don’t see how the progression of relationship beginnings should make you so wary?

    Anyway, it only took about a week or two before we told each other about our deeper feelings for each other, and we didn’t scare each other off. I think when it’s right, it can go very quickly. But there’s still a time curve.

  • Travis

    @Tom,
    A guy wants to work hard for sex because if she forces him to work hard for it chances are (except in the case of price discrimination) when he does get it, he knows that he’s gotten something special that she’s not willing to give to just anybody.
    A woman is the same way with commitment. If she doesn’t have to work for it, she gets the impression that you’d be willing to give that commitment to ANYBODY who looks decent. Winning your commitment isn’t anything special. You’re basically the male version of a slut. The most important thing you have to offer (sex, if you’re a woman-commitment if you’re a man) looses it’s value if you’re perceived as being willing to give it up to just anyone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A woman is the same way with commitment. If she doesn’t have to work for it, she gets the impression that you’d be willing to give that commitment to ANYBODY who looks decent. Winning your commitment isn’t anything special. You’re basically the male version of a slut. The most important thing you have to offer (sex, if you’re a woman-commitment if you’re a man) looses it’s value if you’re perceived as being willing to give it up to just anyone.

      Exactly. I have known young men go from 0 to 60 with commitment in 1 or 2 dates. Not only does the girl wonder what on earth she did to merit this certainty in so short a time, she feels robbed of the normal ebb and flow of early relationships. A bit of uncertainty in the beginning is delicious! It’s an anticipation, a hope that your feelings will be requited. You’re on the edge of your seat praying for it to work out. If it does, it feels like such an incredible high. Locking it down too soon robs us of that pleasure.

      Our job is to attract you physically and then win your heart with our other traits. Doing both at the same time makes no sense. It feels off, because it is.

  • http://aleph-1.blogspot.com/ Aleph One

    Cooper,

    I’m so old I had to Google to find out what an “Obey shirt” is. Now that I’ve seen them, let me give you some advice: throw them all away and buy some grown-up clothes. At 23, you’re old enough to dress like an adult.

    Go look at the stuff Tanner posts on masculine-style.com — that’s more appropriate for your age, and projects a much sharper image. Graphic T’s are for kids.

  • JP

    @Hope:

    “I went from unusure, to attracted, to completely in love with my husband. That’s how a normal relationship starts. I’m still deeply in love with him.”

    I think he’s talking about when the boredom and disinterest sets in, not the love stage of the marriage.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper 149

    It’s not enjoyable for a woman usually, but it is often necessary for her attraction and LTR buttons to be pushed. I personally find it sucks and I wish women’s attraction buttons were more objective and that a great guy would push her buttons independent of whether he was showing interest or not…kind of along the lines of how a guy thinks a women is pretty regardless of whether she’s showing interest or not.

    But a woman wants the best man she can get within the parameters that subconsciously define attraction for her. But a lot of that is tied up in more ethereal things like confidence, status, charisma, etc. that are hard to define or measure. And so she subconsciously looks for clues. If other women find him attractive then there must be some truth to it is her subconscious reasoning. If he treats me too nicely then he must see me as higher value and so I don’t want him. If he treats me with enough interest to make me think there’s a chance while at the same time with suspicion and makes me work to win him over then he must have higher value and I like that. It is F’d up when considering that the a man (adequately attractive objectively for a given woman) could go and consciously act in a needy way, different from how he normally confidently acts, and have no attraction from said woman or the same man could go and act in his normal attractive way and she would be attracted.

    The converse is often seen to be true too, where the objectively lacking man fakes enough of the outwards signs that push her buttons and she feels attraction. This tends to work more for short term since often she will see through him later and lose attraction but sometimes not.

    I assume that women evolved to want a man who isn’t so eager and forward about wanting an LTR with her before he knows her well enough because there was enough correlation between good genes and status and provider/protector ability and the behaviour of making her earn his commitment. Closer to the ground, there is no set time frame that you have to wait. Rather, you can amp it up step by step as she emotionally escalates and feels more and more attraction and admiration. In some cases she may have observed you from afar and already be into you and there things could successfully escalate quickly. With others, you push their buttons so fast upon meeting–love/lust/whatever at first sight–that you can escalate rapidly. With most women (in consideration of which men are interacting with them) the length of time for her to become really into you will take longer.

    Overall, that is why it is so important to perceive how much interest she is displaying in you both sexually and for an LTR so that you don’t get too far ahead and make her think this guy is desperate. The ideal (but not realistic for most men or unless you’re really playing below your league) is to have her one step ahead of you and you respond. Most of the time, however, the man should escalate one step and allow her to respond. If she doesn’t then she’s probably not into you. And if you make 2-4 escalation steps beyond the level she has gone to then she will start to sense that you’re too into her and by the logic listed above not of high enough value for her. I hate how that is but it seems to be true to life in most cases so as men we can either use that knowledge or not. Women really do want to subconsciously feel like they worked hard to win him over, in spite of the anxiety or whatever experienced along the way. Without that they’ll often feel something missing. Men want a sufficiently pretty girl in order to give up the options of someone else for an LTR or the possibility of casual sex. If she’s not pretty enough (to begin with, later once he’s bonded to her her looks can actually go down somewhat but not too much w/o him falling out of love) he will feel like he got a bad deal (although if he’s desperate enough he might take it).

  • Cooper

    @Hope
    “So… you expect a girl to fall head-over-heels immediately?”

    Well, no. I just don’t like the idea of having to fabricate the attraction – as if it’s up to me to get her to want to want me. I want a woman who makes up her own mind, and that requires being confedent in showing some initial interest. All the stuff about Game makes it seem like it’s up to the guy to create an attraction, and to me, that makes such attraction less genuine, and less likely to endure.
    I’ve seen how when girls REALLY are attracted they’ll do anything short of hurling themselves at their object of affection. And when they’re on the fence, (which usually means there’s a certain level of doubt in the physical attraction) then there all this coercion necessary to convince them. I’m not looking to ‘convince’ anyone into feeling sexually attracted to me.

    *burp*
    Is that a red pill that just came up? haha.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      *burp*
      Is that a red pill that just came up? haha.

      This cracked me up. Good for you for keeping your sense of humor.

  • Carmen

    @ Susan
    That list hits the nail! You explained it really clearly (as usual), it makes me understand my own behaviour better. Thank you!
    @ Iggles
    You’re completely right – sorry, I didn’t express myself clearly there. What I meant was what Susan said – women are wary of strongly expressed interest too early. Even if there’s mutual interest, you’re gonna think something isn’t right when he shows (very) direct interest TOO early. It’s the timing that’s important.

    I agree with you, I don’t think asking a girl out would make her run for the hills (granted there’s mutual attraction) because it just shows the guy wants to get to know her better. Yes, it does clearly shows the guy is interested, but not excessively so. So the girl won’t feel the need to run.

    Simply asking someone out isn’t strongly expressed interest, I think, but you are right that it shows direct interest.

  • Iggles

    @ Travis:

    To summarize, I think everybody seems to be trying win over the opposite sex by becoming their “sexual” ideal, as opposed to their LTR ideal. Not realizing that those two things are oftentimes very different. Then we wonder why the hook up culture is thriving, but the marriage/ LTR culture is dying.

    +1000

    I got what you’re saying, and I agree. It’s part of why the 80% keep missing each other, like two ships passing in the night.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Aleph One

    +1 for your post. You hit the nail on the head re: immaturity, I was having trouble articulating that.

    LOVING that blog! Great tips in there.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    I would also say that today too many women (maybe 50%, especially in the 18-30 y/o group) have messed up attraction buttons. They have become too masculine, too sarcastic, too entitled, too unromantic, all the while feeling a certain inner emptiness but projecting brash outer bitchiness. The man who walks into this looking for a romantic, feminine woman will get a figurate kick in the balls.

    Overall, though, due to hypergamy, most women want to feel that her man is good enough and her having to earn his love and commitment makes her feel that.

  • Cooper

    Agh, I knew someone was going have to google Obey ts. Please know those that come up in the search are nothing like the ones that I’d wear.
    I kinda regret mentioning it, cause I only wear the very, very simple designs of what I’d otherwise call a very gody brand. (which isnt exactly me)

  • OffTheCuff

    I disagree with the immutable thing.

    I don’t want to “work” for sex. Hard to get is tiring, we get enough rejection, and don’t need more of that. Better to say we want to put in some modest time and modest effort, some investment, if we see you as a girlfriend prospect. Otherwise, we really appreciate you being easy.

  • Glasses

    Hi Susan, I think a great example of an alpha-beta man is Roger Federer, who’s actually in the Olympics finals now. He’s a sports legend, yet he’s been with his wife ever since he met her in 2000, in Sydney Olympics. They have adorable 3-year old twin girls (just google Roger Federer twins, and try not to kiss your computer screen). His wife is not a super-hot arm candy, which he could have had, no doubt. Mirka Federer is a nice- and normal-looking lady, a former tennis player herself, who, clearly, makes him happy. Check out how he talks about her. He would have been seen as a total pussy if he wasn’t the most dominant tennis player of all times. I’m a tennis nut, and I actually hate Federer, but I always admire him for his commitment and loyalty to his wife. I thought that it’d be good if the public was aware of great examples of very successful guys who are also completely “beta” in their personal lives. No one would think, looking at Roger Federer and guys like him, that being beta is something to be ashamed of. We need to change that!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hey, Glasses, good to see you!

      You make a great point about Federer. I’ve been super aware of some of this watching the Olympics this week. If these men aren’t alpha, nobody’s alpha.

      Roissy had a post last week about what a beta loser Robert Pattinson is – otherwise Kristen S. wouldn’t have cheated on him. And yet he probably has more women ready to have sex with him than any other man in the world.

      The message is clear. Being in love is beta, sexual faithfulness is beta, monogamy is beta. Screw that!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper, so you mean, you want the girl to initiate, make the first moves and tell you she likes you without any kind of persuasion involved on your part?

    You’re only going to find more aggressive women who do that in real life. Online, yes I kind of did that with my husband, but I had no idea what he really looked like, and I would never be able to do something like that in person.

    I don’t actually understand why LTR-minded guys like you (and my husband) want the girl to make the move first. He told me some of the same things though.

    His words:

    I just sort of began to sit back… for a while I would still be sort of opportunistic. If a girl seemed interested I would see where it was going to go. I eventually realized that the girls who were “interested” in me were not the kind I was really interested in. I didn’t see us as being truly compatible.

    Now I wonder if that is because he also wore graphic T-shirts (now he tends to wear plain solid-colored T-shirts) and projected a vibe that attracted a certain type of woman. I probably would not have come onto him if I met him in person. He would have intimidated me!

    Regarding the short-term stuff, he told me:

    NOT being a ruthless asshole who’s only interested in having lots of sex with lots of girls and going to all the parties and being the most popular etc… is my biggest weakness to those guys. But I also regard it as my greatest strength. I never really did like the idea of “casual sex.” The concept always sort of bugged me… deeply even.

    When he told me that, I was like “OMG swoon.” But he did already demonstrate his “alpha male traits” by that point, so the “beta” he was revealing made me fall more in love.

  • SayWhaat

    While we’re on the subject of profile pics, does anyone else agree that Clay (comment #1) is a total cutie? :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      While we’re on the subject of profile pics, does anyone else agree that Clay (comment #1) is a total cutie?

      Haha, you are so predictable. He is cute, and he is totally your type!

  • Cooper

    @HanSolo
    I completely agree. Girls are so unsure about their assessment of a guys value that they rely on indirect clues that suggest truth – namely by correlating his interest to his value.

    This is stupid. It’s why girls end up with douchebags. And it is why nice guys learn to act like assholes.

    Back to my ol’ dog and ball metaphor. It’s just like how a foolish dog learns to see a waving hand as evidence of a ball to be thrown, when the hand is actually empty. (and the real ball is in another hand)
    Relying on these indirect clues make people looking signal that may as well be incorrect a lot of the time. So much that a dog could see the ball, then be distracted by a waving hand.

    Judging a man’s value by his level of interest, and thus going for the man of highest value (one with the lowest interest) is only going to result in ‘empty hands.’ (and by that I mean guys who are, in fact, not interested in a relationship)
    Even worse, girls will find guys that will P&D them, cause not all guys restrain from having sex with women they wouldn’t have a relationship with.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Judging a man’s value by his level of interest, and thus going for the man of highest value (one with the lowest interest) is only going to result in ‘empty hands.’ (and by that I mean guys who are, in fact, not interested in a relationship)

      That’s a valid point – I’ve often said that the SMP is warped by the prevalence of the Principle of Least Interest, which is adopted by the majority.

      Low interest is not the goal. You can be interested and still take time to qualify a woman. The question is, what are you interested in, and on what basis?

  • Todd

    I like this post from Roissy. I tend to avoid him because he goes so hard in the paint, I wonder what women did him wrong in his life. I’m not thinking dating, as much as I’m thinking mother, aunts, sisters, grandmothers, teachers, etc. This is for the guy who is sick of humping around…which even the biggest players get sick of. :)

    @Royale: I would bump up the weight chart for Black women by about 10 lbs. (because that’s the difference between Black women and White women observed in the medical literature) and a couple of years with regard to age. Good Black literally doesn’t crack…or at least cracks less. The lack of sunburns help. :)

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    Good metaphor.

  • JP

    @Hope: “Cooper, so you mean, you want the girl to initiate, make the first moves and tell you she likes you without any kind of persuasion involved on your part?

    You’re only going to find more aggressive women who do that in real life. Online, yes I kind of did that with my husband, but I had no idea what he really looked like, and I would never be able to do something like that in person.

    I don’t actually understand why LTR-minded guys like you (and my husband) want the girl to make the move first.”

    It’s easier if the girl makes the move first!

    That way, the possibility of rejection is out of the way and you have a 100% chance of dating.

    It was only recently that I figured out that lots of guys apparently *do* get rejected on a regular basis by numerous women.

    For many years, I just kind of assumed that this was how dating works. You just wander around being yourself and girls periodically try to date you.

    And I’m really not that attractive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      Re girls making moves, a young woman recently shared a story with me about giving a guy her number. They had hit it off all day on a project at work, but he was a consultant and she was the client. She suspected he would not cross that line. At the end of the day, she gave him some paperwork, and tucked a note in with her number, asking him to call her.

      She played me the voicemail – it was so sweet. His voice was all quavery and nervous, he was short of breath. And this was a guaranteed yes, no risk of rejection!

  • JP

    Although if I shaved my head, I would apparently appear more dominant.

    “A man’s shorn scalp was linked with dominance. In other words, men with shaved heads were perceived as powerful by others.”

    If I did this, I think the only thing that would happen is all of the judges I work with would look at me kind of funny.

    http://bodyodd.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/02/13054454-guys-with-shaved-heads-seem-tougher-study-says

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Although if I shaved my head, I would apparently appear more dominant.

      This is a key part of Walter White’s transformation in Breaking Bad.

  • Cooper

    @Hope
    No, I don’t expect the woman to take every step along the way.
    Shouldn’t being around me – so awesome me! (i kid) – be persuasive enough for her to feel comfortable expressing interest? That’s what most women expect, no?
    Girls really don’t have to worry about attraction levels. Cause, despite how superficial it may sound, once a guy decides to approach you already have 95% of his attraction – that being physical. All the rest is avoiding being DQ’d for crazy, irrational behavior. (which I’d like to believe should come easy to most women.)

    Guys have to deal with hypergamy. Which in my mind means, for every ounce of effort you put in, into gaining her attraction, is essentially adding to the risk that she’ll swap up for another guy. (again, in my mind)

    I like the bits about your husbands thinking – I feel very similar about things.

    I’ll admit that LTR-guys wanting women to make the first move is silly at best – completely unrealistic at worst. But we are the type that what something that shows signs of being able to last. And we tend to think that a interest, that has come from a woman’s own decision, has the best chance of lasting.
    I can’t remember what this is from, but I remember this moment in a film when the guy is teaching another guy who to effectively trick someone. And he says “the trick is so make them think that they thought of it, first.” (he bases it off the concept that someone will be much open to a idea if they think it from their own will, and not injected.)
    Well, it’s kinda like that, but LTR-guys REALLY want women to first of it first, nearly on their own. (perhaps bad example)

    Nonetheless, that’s just how I think. It’s not to say I don’t know how it actually works.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Guys have to deal with hypergamy. Which in my mind means, for every ounce of effort you put in, into gaining her attraction, is essentially adding to the risk that she’ll swap up for another guy. (again, in my mind)

      And women have to deal with the constant threat of a man’s desire for sexual variety.

  • Cooper

    @JP
    “It was only recently that I figured out that lots of guys apparently *do* get rejected on a regular basis by numerous women.”

    Most men, if not all, who are successful with approaching will admit that their rejection rates are 95%.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    JP and Cooper, I know that it does remove the risk for the guy, but I also think that’s asking for too much from a shy girl, who is never going to directly make the first move. It would look too forward and may be interpreted by many guys as her wanting something short-term.

    For some girls, the guy showing some initiative in talking to her actually piques her interest, whereas before his initial move, she had no interest. Others have mentioned that female attraction tends to be responsive rather than active. I would say that the approach should be “indirect” though.

    When I took some initiative with my husband it was under the mindset of, “This guy is interesting; I’d like to pick his mind and talk to him more,” NOT “I’m really attracted to him and want him to be my boyfriend now!” It was also easy for both of us to be non-chalant at first because we were living in different states and just talking online. I don’t know what the “real world” equivalent would be.

  • JP

    @Hope:

    “When I took some initiative with my husband it was under the mindset of, “This guy is interesting; I’d like to pick his mind and talk to him more,” NOT “I’m really attracted to him and want him to be my boyfriend now!”

    I think the rules are different for online and in-person.

    I was effectively love-shy, meaning that it was basically impossible for me to initiate anything even if I knew that the girl was interested – due to a stupid 7th grade embarrassment/humiliation.

    (This ultimately resulted in a note to self: denying that you are really into a girl and running away is not really a good solution even if you are embarassed. Bad! Bad! Don’t do that!)

    Interestingly, this meant that if I was talking to you I *wasn’t* interested. This probably triggered the responsive attraction which ended up with me in long term relationships in which I had no interest. (Of the, “well I’m not attracted to this person, but I’m not dating anyone, and I like her as a friend, so, why not, which ended in…how do I extract myself from this without crushing her…hmmm…looks like I can’t? Uh, oh, I am in trouble now…)

    I don’t recommend the passive approach. It’s dumb and can potentially lead to situations which are objectively bad ideas.

    (This also led to the second note to self: “Don’t have LTRs with people in which you have no actual romantic interest because it’s really unpleasant for everyone.”)

    My high school/college dating idiocy astounds me.

  • Cooper

    So, a manwhore has more SMP-value than a man wanting commitment. (*cough* an emotional slut)

    And a man of strictly short-term mating is of the utmost value.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    JP, I was like that to some extent, but I grew up in the Internet era, so I could give a guy my online instant messaging info and then talk to him that way.

    But yeah, don’t be with a person you don’t really want to be with… that way leads to pain!

    Cooper, “value” is subjective. Some people spend like $70 on a single item in Diablo 3, which is totally worthless to other people.

  • Cooper

    It’s no wonder where dark knights come from.
    No matter how much one doesn’t like Game, a preference short-term mating signals high value. Period.

    I may as well become a manwhore – would be a significant upgrade it seems.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I may as well become a manwhore — would be a significant upgrade it seems.

      Now I regret telling you that you have the right stuff. :(

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    <blockquoteIt’s no wonder where dark knights come from.
    No matter how much one doesn’t like Game, a preference short-term mating signals high value. Period.

    I may as well become a manwhore – would be a significant upgrade it seems.

    Tell me about it.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”Not only does the girl wonder what on earth she did to merit this certainty in so short a time, she feels robbed of the normal ebb and flow of early relationships”….reminds me of this passage:

    “But women need to get to that acrophobic edge and suffer there for a while”

    …which is (oddly enough!) from <a href="http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html#113068549778551457"<Linda Niemann's memoir of her experiences working as a brakeman for a railroad.

    The passage continues:

    Men don’t seem to understand this about sex. They rush into it, and sex is over before the woman has even noticed that they are there. It’s like the sun waking up a sleepy earth. It doesn’t just turn the lights on. It sneaks up on the earth, lights a subtle fire somewhere else, makes the earth turn over in her sleep and face him. He throws a few drops of red into the inky waters of he sky, and lightens the palette with orchestral resonance. He also makes it colder. The earth realizes she wants to warm up. Unknowingly she starts to desire the sun. She creates the sun in her mind and then there he is, her creation, child and lover, returning from the dream of her sleep. Who would resist such a lover?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @DAvid foster

      Nice passage, I think that captures it perfectly.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger
  • Meer

    I recently had the guy-expressing-LTR-interest-right-away faux-pas happen to me. And omg…..I felt digusted……
    Not only does it imply that the only thing the guy is looking for is looks (because he doesn’t know me well enough to judge my inner world), it also comes off as desperate–that he doesn’t care about her as a person, but is desperately seeking a decent-looking girl to act as girlfriend and not make him look like a loser.
    It’s just creepy. Ew. It’s like, I just met you; why you throwing yourself on me? I haven’t even seen any of YOUR good qualities yet and you are not interested in ME. as a PERSON.

    It’s not satisfying to be rewarded for something out of your control, i.e. looks.

    And it’s true that guys that commit to anything look low in value. Ew. It suggests that they just need a status token, and not you.

    Also, I gotta say, on a diff. topic; with hearing guys’ comments on images of girls etc…it is discouraging. I am a girl. I know that in essence my whole value rests on how I look. It is not my fault that I was born in such a way as to never be able to look hot unless I got major surgery, a wig, and some ribs removed. It’s heartbreaking. I don’t wanna have to marry a guy whose face I can’t accept just because I’m not a 10 and cannot afford a decent-looking guy who is not a hobo. Ugh. Life sucks so bad. Basically, average girls cannot get LTRs. And if they do they have to settle…?? lol rather kill myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Meer

      Basically, average girls cannot get LTRs. And if they do they have to settle…??

      That depends on what you mean by settle. Lots of average guys are not having any sex and would willingly be a boyfriend. I don’t think it’s settling to pair with a guy whose looks are about the same attractiveness as yours. Are you trying to play out of your league? Because that’s where much of the female frustration in the SMP comes from.

      I cosign what you wrote about a guy who’s trying to put a ring on it without really knowing you.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I actually think about Game a lot when watching it because the main character has gone from milquetoast to badass in the most amazing way.

    Specially considering is the same actor that played the sweet Hal on Malcolm in the middle. You got to respect that. :)

    Roissy had a post last week about what a beta loser Robert Pattinson is – otherwise Kristen S. wouldn’t have cheated on him. And yet he probably has more women ready to have sex with him than any other man in the world.

    Had you see a car salesman talking bad about a car he needs to sell? Of Roissy is aware that most men that look for his “guidance” were treated in the worst possible way by heartless women. Of course he needs to sell his “snake oil” as the miracle ointment for their problems. “Be like me and you will never get cheated on” , not surprised at all. The thing is most men don’t go from PUA’s to husbands and father but to MGTOW. Me thinks that if you never have serious relationship with a woman is of course easy never get cheated on by one, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      The thing is most men don’t go from PUA’s to husbands and father but to MGTOW.

      I definitely agree with the former, but why do you say MGTOW? Are you saying that once they age out of PUA, there’s nowhere for them to turn?

  • Wudang

    “Exactly. I have known young men go from 0 to 60 with commitment in 1 or 2 dates. Not only does the girl wonder what on earth she did to merit this certainty in so short a time, she feels robbed of the normal ebb and flow of early relationships. A bit of uncertainty in the beginning is delicious! It’s an anticipation, a hope that your feelings will be requited. You’re on the edge of your seat praying for it to work out. If it does, it feels like such an incredible high. Locking it down too soon robs us of that pleasure.

    Our job is to attract you physically and then win your heart with our other traits. Doing both at the same time makes no sense. It feels off, because it is.”

    I highly agree with this and will hold of on giving commitment even longer than the point when I feel like giving it just to prolong her chase but I am actually somewhat open to the idea of “love” at first sight. In the book Blink a lot of science is presented to show you can know a remarkable amount of stuff about a person just from looking at them for a few seconds. People can also generally tell by looking at people for just half a minute or so wether their marriages will last etc. etc. This has made me think that perhaps some people that are very in tune with body language and subconscious cues can see enough in that to fall in love, if not in just one look than at least in a date. I`ve never experienced that but I have had a lot of instances of just knowing a million things about people just from looking at them the first time I met them. I remember starting a new school and looking at the people in the school yard and seeing three of the guys there and just knowing we where going to be great friends. They where exactly like I felt they would be. I´ve also had lots very precise intuitions about the personalities of certain people and of how they would behave and how we would get a long. I also feel like I can tell now in many instances how a woman will be in bed as in not just good or bad but in exactly how she will move.

    Also, since our genes are so revealed through our face and our body it is possible to recognize a person to be an extremely good genetic match for you. Not just seeing the person has good genes as in generally attractive but a genetic make up that is ideal to combine with yours. People look for opposite immune systems and a bunch of other stuff in their partners to balance out their own genes. This makes the right genetic match not just the best objective genetic catch highly desirable. I believe it is possible to recognize both the person who has the right genetic match to balance your genes and also to recognize who has the genes to make up a personality you will pair bond the best with. So you can see a person and tell their objective gene value, their particular mix value with your genes, their particular genetic make up to pair bond well with you and you can probably also tell a million things about their personality as it has been formed by life, all just in a second or two. If you run across someone who is a remarkable individual match for you and objective catch I think you can have massive physical attraction, massive romantic attraction and a strong feeling this is a good pair bond match all in a second or two. I´ve never experienced this though.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      This has made me think that perhaps some people that are very in tune with body language and subconscious cues can see enough in that to fall in love, if not in just one look than at least in a date. I`ve never experienced that but I have had a lot of instances of just knowing a million things about people just from looking at them the first time I met them.

      Yes, you linked to at least one study that shows women are very good at determining a male’s sociosexual orientation just from viewing a photograph.

      The question of whether love at first sight exists or not is an interesting one. You certainly provide a good scientific argument that it does, although it clearly is very unusual. I have known a few couples who experienced this, married very quickly, and have been happy together for many years, but I’ve also known couples who felt this way and it ended very badly.

      For example, in the study of sociosexuality, women had a strong preference for male faces that were restricted, i.e. not oriented toward casual sex. Yet we know that some women will inevitably fall for the bad boy cad. So while our radar may be finely attuned, the outcome will depend on our individual attraction triggers.

  • Courtley

    @Ramble

    “I canNOT understand how these couples could make anyone *angry.*

    Which town would you rather live, and raise your children, in:
    - the one filled with hot chicks and their douche bags, or
    - the one filled with “girls next door” and their engineer husbands
    ?

    Girls sexual choices have major consequences.”

    Oh, buddy, please. There’s always going to be some fratass and his harem or the grownup versions of them out there. They’re pretty easy to ignore once you’re out of college and anyone who obsesses over their existence is just silly.

  • Travis

    @Cooper,
    Regarding the showing too much interest too early:

    Forget women for a second. Imagine a new guy starts at your job. The two of you strike up a conversation. Seems like a pretty good dude. You have a couple laughs.

    The next day he comes into work and asks you to be the best man at his wedding. What are you gonna’ think? Are you gonna’ be honored? Or are you gonna’ think that dude is kinda’ creepy and desperate for friends?

    Most guys would be incredibly flattered to be asked to be the best man at a friends wedding IF they feel like they’ve earned that friendship. But if a guy whose friendship you HAVEN’T earned asks you, he’s probably going to come off seeming incredibly needy and desperate. You’re probably going to get the impression that that guy would be willing to ask ANYBODY who shared a friendly conversation with him to stand up and be the best man at his wedding. Therefore, the invatation isn’t going to mean very much.

    Girls feel the same way about guys who are willing to offer them commitment or put them up on a pedastal before they’ve done anything to earn that commitment or devotion. It’s not special if it’s not earned. In their eyes, you’d probably be willing to offer that to ANY girl with roughly the same looks as her.
    Make sense?

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hansolo

    I would also say that today too many women (maybe 50%, especially in the 18-30 y/o group) have messed up attraction buttons. They have become too masculine, too sarcastic, too entitled, too unromantic, all the while feeling a certain inner emptiness but projecting brash outer bitchiness. The man who walks into this looking for a romantic, feminine woman will get a figurate kick in the balls.

    I’ve definitely seen some women like this. They are a little scary to me.

    The only toll the SMP has had on me is that I have become a bit jaded. It’s hard to maintain a completely optimistic outlook on dating when the experience can be very bleak at times.

    I don’t want to become a hardened, unromantic, cold woman, but I worry sometimes whether or not it’s inevitable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I don’t want to become a hardened, unromantic, cold woman, but I worry sometimes whether or not it’s inevitable.

      FWIW, I’ve heard other women say this. Along with things like “I don’t know how much longer I can do this.” (This = aggressively filtering out cads and finding no one makes it through the filter.)

      I totally get why men claim that women are rewarding cads, but there’s also a supply problem. I have known some attractive women who get a lot of attention from cads, and virtually no LTR-oriented men ever approach them. I suspect that the 80% of guys is quick to assume “she wouldn’t go for me” or “girls like that always get with the most dominant guys.”

      Maybe I should start a t-shirt line.

      BETA MALE? ASK ME OUT ON A DATE.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Sassy
    I don’t want to become a hardened, unromantic, cold woman, but I worry sometimes whether or not it’s inevitable.

    I don’t think I’ll end up hardened, unromantic and cold, but I do worry I’ll end up alone . . . because every time I experience something that brings out these qualities, I retreat again. Not the best strategy, either. :(

  • Abbot

    “They have become too masculine, too sarcastic, too entitled, too unromantic… The man who walks into this looking for a romantic, feminine woman will get a figurate kick in the balls.”

    How much more evidence is needed to confirm that women and men in the West exist in two distinct sexual/romantic cultures?

  • Wudang

    “BETA MALE? ASK ME OUT ON A DATE.”

    Try it, seriously. It might work, people wear t-shirts with all kinds of weird statements.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I’m sure that this has been addressed many times before, but I’ll go ahead and add this observation: to make a complicated analytical problem hold still, we frequently construct a kind of Dungeons & Dragons universe of fixed character classes (STR vs. LTR orientation, cads vs. dads, etc.).

    I think that this is a useful simplification over here: apparently there are men on HUS who are simply unable to enjoy casual sex, who would turn down Megan Fox for a ONS, etc. However, I think that, for many men, casual and LTR sex provide different kinds of nourishment and that casual sex can actually offer some important psychological advantages.

    If a man has a ONS with a woman (I’m assuming she was fully into it), then on a basic level we know that she had something that he wanted (sex), and that he had something that she wanted (sex). For the man, the validation of his SMV is nearly 100% pure: it is an apples-for-apples transaction.

    For sex within an LTR, the standard model used here is that she had something that he wanted (sex) and that he had something that she wanted (“commitment”). They found an appropriate conversion price and the market cleared. Hurray. Unfortunately, because this was an apples-for-oranges transaction, many men are now left with questions about how much they “paid” in commitment costs relative to what other men paid in the past. In their minds there is an inverse relationship between male SMV and male commitment costs required to obtain sex.

    It ultimately may not feel particularly validating to get sex because you essentially “paid for it” in a resources-for-sex transaction. There are no doubt guys who don’t care, but I think a typical guy does want to feel that he is the irresistible hot-sex alpha at least for this one woman.

    The problem can explain why a guy who is LTR-dating an SMV-8 woman who makes him “earn” sex by cavorting and turning tricks like a dolphin performing for treats at Sea World can go on a business trip and have sex with an SMV-6.5 who makes him feel like a stud and offers pure SMV validation.

    The bad boy player has a comparatively uncluttered signal-noise environment and so his confidence may be enhanced with every N. He’s not worried about price discrimination issues that give comps to certain attractive customers and require others to pay full price. I don’t think the female equivalent to the player is necessarily a slut; I think the female equiv is a woman who has several men chasing her and showering her with commitment signals and propositions w/o her needing to give sex to any of them. Both the player and this woman are simply getting the best possible prices for what they respectively want.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      If a man has a ONS with a woman (I’m assuming she was fully into it)

      That’s a fallacious assumption on college campuses. The rate of severe intoxication is very high – 30% of men, and 35% of women report that the hookup was entirely unintentional due to alcohol or drugs. The male may not regret it, but the psychological advantage is likely to come in the form of bro talk and high fives rather than a stimulating or rewarding sexual experience that confirms his desirability. Many of these hookups are nothing more than mutual masturbation sessions. In fact, one common college joke after a hookup is, “Was there eye contact?”

      However, I think that, for many men, casual and LTR sex provide different kinds of nourishment and that casual sex can actually offer some important psychological advantages.

      Do you think that casual sex can have any psychological disadvantages for men, and if so, at what N do you believe that kicks in?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I definitely agree with the former, but why do you say MGTOW? Are you saying that once they age out of PUA, there’s nowhere for them to turn?

    Is mostly a pattern I had seen on the manosphere sites and commenters after mastering game and bedding lots of women many of them decide to keep chasing punani, never marry and never trying to use their skills to find one. There is a concept in physics called the Chandrasekhar limit that predicts what stars will become black holes or neutron star depending on the original mass they had as stars before collapsing. I think of them as men that reach a critical mass of punani in which women are not not longer desirable companions, but just fungible fucktoys, thus they cannot look for one to make any sort of connection, so they just drop out of the whole pair bonding endeavor, at least that is my perception, YMMV.

    @Bellita
    @Sassy

    Being there done that, you need to start learning to get a bit detached from the outcome because finding a mate is hard work. It took me a lot of personal pain and rejection even when I was dating online and concentrating on nerdy men to find ONE that was a good match. So you need to make a habit of not mourning for long. Really the longest disappointment was getting rejected by Eharmony and even so I was back looking for a different site a month after the incident. Is not easy many men that looked really promising just dropped out of the face of earth, I gotten lead on, harassed, rejected, no answers you name it. Your philosophy should be “I will find a mate, or die trying” not one step back, you are love warriors. ;)

  • Courtley

    “While we’re on the subject of profile pics, does anyone else agree that Clay (comment #1) is a total cutie?”

    Yeah, I was thinking this too. :)

  • Abbot

    “because this was an apples-for-oranges transaction, many men are now left with questions about how much they “paid” in commitment costs relative to what other men paid in the past.”

    IOW it come down to the same ol thing men in the 1940′s or pick your decade thought about – cheap, unworthy – and its not an opinion so much about her but about devaluing himself and no man or woman for that matter wants to do that. Trouble is, these days its sooo much work weeding out the unworthy. Grandpa really had it made. It was waaaay easier to fall in love just sixty years ago.

    “In their minds there is an inverse relationship between male SMV and male commitment costs required to obtain sex.”

    How does that inverse relationship benefit the woman or the man in the long term? Has women’s past behaviors and current attitude a set up for failure? Should men just steer clear of this entire shit show per a cost-benefit analysis?

  • JP

    “Do you think that casual sex can have any psychological disadvantages for men, and if so, at what N do you believe that kicks in?”

    The primary psychological disadvantage is getting emotionally entangled with someone who you have no real interest in being emotionally entangled. Of course, this can happen well before you get to the casual sex level. For me, any casual romantic encounter generally involved a great deal of emotional stress and discomfort.

    It also depends on whether you believe fornication to be an act of evil and whether you are the type to have extreme guilt due to transgressing the moral order.

    However, this depends on your own personal moral code and upbringing and level of idealism/perfectionism.

  • Cooper

    I’m familiar with the post about emotional promiscuity. And I remember drawing similar conclusions.

    Pretty much what it says is a man looking for a commitment is of the lowest SMP-value possible – the equivent of a slut handing out sex – and thus casting players as the highest value men.

    Look at BB #180 for example, the girls like disrespectful as #8 in the 10 reason why women love bad boys. (a few of the other points were practically the same ie always guessing)
    Stuff like this makes me associate mysoginy with high value. Because as long as women continue to place such high value, and enjoyment, on working for commitment – “the chases” – than misogynistic men, and career cads will forever be of highest value. And the message the all the other men will forever be “get your douche hat on, and learn some asshole game.”

    Hey! I’m getting good at this already. A few more years of getting jaded, and I might actually have it down pat. ;)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, good point about the booze.

    I don’t know that there is an N-count after which the psychological problems really start, but I do think that there are two types of problems that the high-volume casual sex operator can develop over time.

    The first would be a real cynicism that can occur if you experience some disturbing things that just leave you feeling cynical about relationships in general. These are usually related to affairs or flings with married women. You can enjoy the sex but simultaneously develop issues with trust, and the more empathetic/less narcissistic the player is, the more he will have to concede that what happened to those other men could also happen to him, too.

    The other type of problem would come for a man who achieved his high N by being really predatory. Returning to your booze concern, I think it is one thing for a guy to hook up with a girl who had a few drinks to lose inhibitions/give herself a plausible cover story for the next day, but who was in fact demonstrably attracted to the guy prior to the alcohol. It is another thing entirely to meet a girl who is already wasted and target her while she is in some semi-conscious state.

    The first guy can still feel pretty good about the hook-up in terms of validating his SMV, since the alcohol was just a supercharger for an attraction that was already there; in terms of SMV validation, the second guy shouldn’t feel good about the sex unless he’s truly a sociopath.

    A high N player that achieved his N by borderline date-rape tactics should derive no real increase in self-esteem or SMV self-concept, and I think that he may deal with the cognitive dissonance that results by taking positions that are extremely misogynistic (“they were sluts and were asking for it”). The first guy, in contrast, actually derives more psychological satisfaction from the belief that women are normally NOT sluts, but they may behave like sluts *for him* because he’s so attractive.

    Just my $.02.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Thanks for your thoughts on psych and casual sex for guys. That makes sense – I’m always interested in learning more about the male experience, and I always need reminding that it’s so different from the female’s.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #198:
    “That depends on what you mean by settle.”

    O: By what is meant by “settle”, for many Women in our time, is to have to get with a guy who is an equal to you or a bit less. Women want to look UP to her Man in just about every way – and as you know, we have actively, and continue to, undermine this very basic female need. Feminism, among other things brought to us courtesy of the Cognitive Elite, has been responsible for this.

    But that’s something we all know, know matter how much some of us may try to deny it.

    The real question is – what are we going to do about it?

    “Lots of average guys are not having any sex and would willingly be a boyfriend.”

    O: Wait, hold up – when I made the very same argument on the Jessica Sharier thread, you came outta nowhere beaing evidence from the AskMen survey that indicated that what I said couldn’t be true. So which is it, Ms. Walsh? MY argument, MY premise, is that most guys aren’t getting laid – let me define that for you:

    1. Getting regular, ball-draining sex, WITH THE WOMAN/WOMEN OF THEIR CHOICE.

    It is a proven fact that a Man busts much stronger, copious nuts when he is having sex with a highly desirable female. Yes, the Male Orgasm/Nut Busting Factor is indeed highly variable. Simply put, the hotter the chick, the harder the you know what.

    “I don’t think it’s settling to pair with a guy whose looks are about the same attractiveness as yours.”

    O: YOU may not, but clearly, this isn’t the case with many a Woman these days…

    “Are you trying to play out of your league? Because that’s where much of the female frustration in the SMP comes from.”

    O: Bingo.

    But that isn’t the burning question, since we all know this, and that includes the Women in question who are constantly shooting out of their league and getting burned.

    The real burning question is this:

    WHO IS GOING TO TELL THESE WOMEN THAT THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT HOT ENOUGH TO GET THE GUYS THEY WANT TO COMMIT?

    Is it going to be you, Ms. Walsh – given that we have at least some anecdotal evidence that at least a couple such Women do in fact read and comment on your blog?

    Hmm?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      Wait, hold up — when I made the very same argument on the Jessica Sharier thread, you came outta nowhere beaing evidence from the AskMen survey that indicated that what I said couldn’t be true. So which is it, Ms. Walsh? MY argument, MY premise, is that most guys aren’t getting laid — let me define that for you:

      1. Getting regular, ball-draining sex, WITH THE WOMAN/WOMEN OF THEIR CHOICE.

      We’re on the same page. The fact is, 88% of men say they have a sex life. We don’t know what their standard is for that hurdle, but if it’s yours, then I think we can agree far more than 12% are not getting everything they want. But then again, no one ever promised that men are entitled to that. In history, I imagine only a tiny percentage of men got that, far fewer than today.

      And of course, many women are not getting what they want either. Meer certainly isn’t getting a relationship with the man of her choice.

      WHO IS GOING TO TELL THESE WOMEN THAT THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT HOT ENOUGH TO GET THE GUYS THEY WANT TO COMMIT?

      Is it going to be you, Ms. Walsh — given that we have at least some anecdotal evidence that at least a couple such Women do in fact read and comment on your blog?

      I think I did just tell Meer that, tactfully. I have no idea what Meer looks like, and even if I did, her actual SMV is irrelevant. What is relevant is the SMV of the men she wants, relative to her own.

      No one can say that any woman here is aiming out of her league unless:

      1. She asks, as RWC did.

      2. You have pics of both her and the men she wants.

  • Desiderius

    Re unhappy high n see mvie safety not guaranteed

    movie is SO Susan she’d lv it

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Isn’t Obsidian still in moderation? If so, why is he still talking about me?

  • SayWhaat

    Susan, if you’re thinking about watching a rom-com, check out Ruby Sparks. It’s in theaters and it’s pretty good. I saw it last weekend with my friends and was pleasantly surprised when the lead actor (Paul Dano) showed up during credits for a quick Q&A. One of my friends nudged me in the side and said “oh, he’s *totally* your type!”

    *sigh*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      Thanks for the rec. I’ve also heard good things about Jesse and Celeste forever. I can def see you with Paul Dano. :)

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @SayWhaat
    I love your new avatar! :D

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Meer

    I gotta say, on a diff. topic; with hearing guys’ comments on images of girls etc…it is discouraging. I am a girl. I know that in essence my whole value rests on how I look.

    This is indeed discouraging, but keep in mind that when guys talk amongst themselves they tend to talk “big” and “macho,” and it would make them seem a bit lame and sissy to talk about how they want a sweet, kind and nice girl who isn’t a “10.” Deep down most guys really do want personality and love to go along with decent looks. Men do fall in love more easily with beautiful girls, but looks are not a guarantee.

    Bastiat Blogger

    The problem can explain why a guy who is LTR-dating an SMV-8 woman who makes him “earn” sex by cavorting and turning tricks like a dolphin performing for treats at Sea World can go on a business trip and have sex with an SMV-6.5 who makes him feel like a stud and offers pure SMV validation.

    This doesn’t seem right. Most women I know who are in LTRs genuinely love the men they’re with. They wouldn’t make the guy “earn” sex by exchanging it for commitment. Some random girl on a business trip isn’t going to fall in love with the guy for who he is in a matter of hours.

    So if the guy is cheating for sexual validation, then he’s usually one of those guys who can compartmentalize sex and love — “I love my wife, but this girl is just a pump and dump.” When women cheat, it tends to be because they fell out of love with their man, and are getting emotionally attached to another man — “I don’t love my husband anymore, and I love this other man.”

    There are exceptions to this, but unless a woman is desperate for money she’s not going to enter a “resources for sex” exchange type of relationship.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Cooper

    Pretty much what it says is a man looking for a commitment is of the lowest SMP-value possible – the equivent of a slut handing out sex – and thus casting players as the highest value men.

    A man looking for commitment is like a slut handing out sex IF he is indiscriminately doing so. If a very intelligent, tall, handsome, classy, masculine and kind-hearted man is ONLY looking for commitment with a girl who is thin, pretty, feminine, has high socioeconomic status, sweet, adoring, easy-going, doesn’t party, meshes well with him intellectually and personally, and who is genuinely in love with him, that’s going to filter out practically the entire female population.

    The player has lower value than commitment-minded man, who is able to be incredibly choosy. His “price” is far beyond that of the player, who may never meet a girl in the same “price range,” because while the player cannot demand even half that list from all the girls he associates with, the commitment-minded man can command it. He is in essence as high in “value” as the girl who filters out tons of men out there because she can afford to do so. This does lead to frustration sometimes, as girls often say they “filter out” too many guys. It’s a feature, not a bug, as the guys like to say in return.

  • Wudang

    “The player has lower value than commitment-minded man, who is able to be incredibly choosy. His “price” is far beyond that of the player, who may never meet a girl in the same “price range,” because while the player cannot demand even half that list from all the girls he associates with, the commitment-minded man can command it. He is in essence as high in “value” as the girl who filters out tons of men out there because she can afford to do so. This does lead to frustration sometimes, as girls often say they “filter out” too many guys. It’s a feature, not a bug, as the guys like to say in return.”

    It is a nice theory but I don`t see this play out in real life. It seems strongly that women are (for the most part) hardwired to use how difficult it is to get him in a relationship as a proxy for value. It seems to be a rather unison experience amongst men that presenting ourselves as very commitment minded does not give us an attraction bonus but tends to arouse suspicion to some degree. In deed the eve bio argument of this is strong. Pair bonding evolved in large part as a way for lower ranking men to gain access to sex. In the evopsych studies I have read it is stated clearly that men of lower value give far more commitment minded signals while men of higher value give less. Value being her looks, dominance, money, career etc. So it makes perfect sense both in this SMP and historically to use willingness to send early commitment signals as a proxy for value in a similar way preselection is used as a proxy for value in stead of assessing the man only by what he himself presents.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Pair bonding evolved in large part as a way for lower ranking men to gain access to sex.

      And with it, the attraction triggers evolved. Those previously lower ranking men became the men that women usually choose to marry. This is why Buss cites a whole bunch of beta traits as keys to female desire.

      The research that you linked to about sociosexuality also demonstrates that women find men with restricted sexuality significantly more facially attractive than men who are promiscuous.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Sassy #219:
    “@ Susan Walsh

    Isn’t Obsidian still in moderation? If so, why is he still talking about me?”

    O: Because you made a comment in an open forum that pertains to the topic, that’s why.

    For real Ms. Sassy – easy, star. I wasn’t saying anything wrong in the least about you; actually, given your stance on Beta Guys and as well, about not lying to them or anyone else you’re not interested in, I have a great deal of respect for you, believe it or not. It’s a good thing for a Woman to know precisely what she is attracted to and to make no bones about them, not to anyone else, and most importantly not to herself. Of course, there are downsides and tradeoffs to be made here, but you probably know all of this; if you don’t, you soon will.

    So lighten up, I’m bigging you up! Not for nothing, but I think you’re one of the relatively few ladies out there these days who at the very least, knows how she ticks. That’s gotta count for something. :)

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs, @Sassy

      I’ve deleted both Obs’ comment and my response to it. I think Obs crossed a line in once again reading the tea leaves for Sassy’s romantic prospects. Please do not advise individual readers unless your input has been requested.

  • Meer

    @ Susan, Obsidian, Hope, etc.

    Well by settle I mean end up with a guy who is of significantly less attractiveness.

    And the problem is, Obsidian, that according to all these blogs, women cannot afford a man of equal attractiveness they have to SETLLE on guys that are not even decent looking just to be respected by them.
    And it goes back to that piece of human nature–that ppl wanna get laid by people they actually desire–so even average guys won’t be interested in me and won’t find me attractive etc. Which basically means that unless I’m a model, I’m doomed to neverh ave a guy truly love me.

    And another issue with the whole women-have-to-settle-thing is that for guys, money/career plays a huge role–so even if you get a guy with comparable looks, you will lose him once he makes it rich.

    And this made me realize just now….that essentially what pisses me off about the attractiveness status quo….is that guys actually have several categories on which to score (career, looks, courage/character, values, etc.)….while women only have looks. and that is very cruel and unfair. Not fair that a guy can be butt ugly yet still get a pretty girl to settle on him…while a girl is stuck choosing whatever ugly face commits to her based on her attractiveness level and nothing else.

    So yeah. =( I’m not hot enough for anything that would make me happy/satisfied. And it sucks. And it doesn’t matter if I’m told it or not….it doesn’t change the fact that it sucks. and I already DO know it. But still in denial.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Hope:
    As I’ve said before, but I think it bears repeating and needs to be directed to you forthrightly – I am not sure it is a prudent idea for you to give an strategy to the gals or guys here, for a number of reasons. For one thing, you are an Asian Woman, which, in the American mating marketplace, gives you a higher position from which to bargain and horsetrade for what you want. Second, because you – and Asian Women in general – tend to “specialize” in a kind of niche market of guys who lots of White Women don’t particularly find attractive: Nerdy White Guys. Asian Women don’t “need” the kinds of displays and the like that other Women in American life seem to; I know you’re familiar with my central argument that even highly educated, degreed Black Women don’t seem to select for the same kinds of “markers” in Men that Asian Women in aggregate, seem to select for. Whether you like or even endorse this, I think you know what I’m talking about. Moreover, it is well known for said Nerdy White Guys, that “going Yellow” is often the go-to option. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying that it exists and I think we all know the reason(s) why it does.

    I think a great deal of one’s success or failure out on the SMP depends greatly on a number of variables that we are loathe to discuss openly, because to do that can and will reveal “market disparities” – yes, some people can and will be more successful than others, in part due to things within their purview to control, while others, not so much. I think the sooner we take these market realities into account, the sooner we will begin to make some real headway.

    O.

  • Mike C

    Our job is to attract you physically and then win your heart with our other traits. Doing both at the same time makes no sense. It feels off, because it is.”

    Yes, absolutely agree.

    I can’t find the comment now…but Cooper wants to project how male attraction works onto women, and then get disappointed that it doesn’t work that way. For men, attraction is usually immediate and primarily visual/physical (although other things can factor as well).

    I think the particular notion Cooper mentioned was having to “create attraction”. Well yeah….those are the breaks. It is what it is. Female attraction is usually not binary but a dial and it is incumbent on the male to “create attraction” through a more active role than a passive one of just “hey I’m here, I look good, you should be attracted, and if not, I am not doing anything else”. It gets even more complicated for a guy if you start with at least some kernel of immediate physical/visual attraction, but then over a course of interaction you essentially negatively display such that you are ramping down whatever initial attraction may have existed.

  • Meer

    Also I just realised, maybe I am still hoping for something out of my league. But, see, the issue is that you can’t just tell me that I’m not hot enough–that’s not gonna stop my human nature from wanting what it wants! And besides that–hasn’t anyone noticed that with guys there’s less of a grey-area of hotness? like girl rangre from 1 to 10 but with guys, its like…..ugh there’s a vast and sparse expanse between hot and not lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Meer

      Also I just realised, maybe I am still hoping for something out of my league. But, see, the issue is that you can’t just tell me that I’m not hot enough–that’s not gonna stop my human nature from wanting what it wants!

      This is a very real problem. I think women’s attraction triggers have gotten messed up in the last 50 years. We all expect to bring home a trophy, but Mother Nature is a cruel mistress. I think men and women are equally distributed in terms of physical attractiveness.

      The love match with mutual sexual attraction for marriage is a recent development. There are still many places where marriages are arranged and people do develop a loving relationship.

      Women are going to need to find a way to hit reset on their expectations, or they’re going to remain alone.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Meer #226:
    “Well by settle I mean end up with a guy who is of significantly less attractiveness.

    “And the problem is, Obsidian, that according to all these blogs,”

    O: Hang on – what “all these blogs” are you talking about? Names, please?

    “women cannot afford a man of equal attractiveness they have to SETLLE on guys that are not even decent looking just to be respected by them.”

    O: Again, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Can you please be a bit more specific?

    “And it goes back to that piece of human nature–that ppl wanna get laid by people they actually desire–so even average guys won’t be interested in me and won’t find me attractive etc. Which basically means that unless I’m a model, I’m doomed to neverh ave a guy truly love me.”

    O: Nonsense – it just means that you’re not likely to get a Cooper Clark Kent who knows who he really is – the Last Son of Krypton. But really, is Captain Atom or Booster Gold so bad?

    “And another issue with the whole women-have-to-settle-thing is that for guys, money/career plays a huge role–so even if you get a guy with comparable looks, you will lose him once he makes it rich.”

    O: Not necessarily. There are many high-powered guys who stuck with their ladies after they hit their strides. This in fact is quite common. Bill Gates instantly comes to mind, so does actor Cuba Gooding Jr.

    “And this made me realize just now….that essentially what pisses me off about the attractiveness status quo….is that guys actually have several categories on which to score (career, looks, courage/character, values, etc.)….while women only have looks. and that is very cruel and unfair.”

    O: Unfortunately my dear, Evolution doesn’t care about your or anyone else’s sense of “fairness”.

    “Not fair that a guy can be butt ugly yet still get a pretty girl to settle on him…while a girl is stuck choosing whatever ugly face commits to her based on her attractiveness level and nothing else.”

    O: Other factors matter too – its just that a Woman’s physical attractiveness plays a much larger role than it does for Men, and I know this really pisses a lot of (homely) Women off, but again, it is what it is, and since it is something that is hardwired into Men via Evolution, it’s not likely to stop anytime soon, and the (homely) Women who are on the outside looking might as well stop the madness and get in where they fit in while they have at least their youth to work with, lest they run the very real risk of being eternal cat ladies.

    “So yeah. =( I’m not hot enough for anything that would make me happy/satisfied. And it sucks. And it doesn’t matter if I’m told it or not….it doesn’t change the fact that it sucks. and I already DO know it. But still in denial.”

    O: The Good Book says it best – you shall know the truth…and it shall set you free…

    Parting shot – are you Black, White, or what?

    O.

  • Mike C

    I have known some attractive women who get a lot of attention from cads, and virtually no LTR-oriented men ever approach them. I suspect that the 80% of guys is quick to assume “she wouldn’t go for me” or “girls like that always get with the most dominant guys.”

    Maybe I should start a t-shirt line.

    BETA MALE? ASK ME OUT ON A DATE.

    Susan,

    This may be true, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read here or elsewhere a female commenter say that average guys are expecting to land a hottie. So you’ve got a massive contradiction there. I think the truth is most guys are pretty aware of where they sit on the immediate markers like height, face, body, status, etc. so if they see a woman of a certain physical appearance level they immediately rule her “out of his league”. Now “Game” aware guys realize they can probably boost their SMV by a few points, but most guys are unaware.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This may be true, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read here or elsewhere a female commenter say that average guys are expecting to land a hottie. So you’ve got a massive contradiction there.

      Yeah, you’re right. I think we need to keep in mind that people view the SMP through their own lenses – that is unavoidable. So a woman who is a 9 and gets no attention from good-looking LTR oriented guys is bummed. At the same time, a woman who is a 6 gets no attention from good-looking LTR oriented guys either. And they’re just two data points – other people will have different perceptions. It’s awfully difficult to map a trend this way.

  • Meer

    @ Obsisidan

    Lol sorry for the vagueness–by these blogs I meant like the commenters on HUS and Heartiste posts talking about how girls need to aim for guys 2 points below them.

    And I dunno who captain atom is but I’m sure i would be fine with that. But because i myself beign a girl am not gorgeous…he would just fantasize about other girls while still technically “loveing” me.

    And yes, ok, I know evolution doesn’t care–I’m saying that telling girls to realize they are homely and need to settle doesn’t change the fact that nature pisses me off and that such a revelation will be easily swallowed.

    As to the whole getting rich and dumping, ok maybe I am being overly cynical, but I don’t have any stats so cannot argue one way or another.

    also @ Mike C’s topic about guys wanting better women than they deserve

    haha yes…..another thing that pisses me off/amuses me about guys…..at least some women are ok dating someone less attractive because they look at other factors, etc…..whereas males…..lol even when they are FAT…..and not successful….and don’t even have masculine features…..they STILL expect a skinny hottie like WTF???? it’s like….”look in the mirror, dude, stop being glad that I’m skinny, you don’t even deserve my protruding ribs , aim for a diff. chick” lol but no. They insist on better looking girls. -.- weird.
    And I thought guys WERE aware that they can get hotter….many guys are aware that it’s all about money in some cases (to some girls)….

  • Mike C

    And it goes back to that piece of human nature–that ppl wanna get laid by people they actually desire–so even average guys won’t be interested in me and won’t find me attractive etc. Which basically means that unless I’m a model, I’m doomed to neverh ave a guy truly love me.

    And another issue with the whole women-have-to-settle-thing is that for guys, money/career plays a huge role–so even if you get a guy with comparable looks, you will lose him once he makes it rich.

    And this made me realize just now….that essentially what pisses me off about the attractiveness status quo….is that guys actually have several categories on which to score (career, looks, courage/character, values, etc.)….while women only have looks.

    2 things:

    1. Wudang had a great comment somewhere that people will and can find people of their same SMV value attractive. Upon reflection I actually think there is alot of truth in this so a female 5-6 should and will be able to be attractive to a male 5-6.

    2. Regarding looks, they are so much more malleable then most people seem to believe. It literally boggles my mind how people think this. I think as someone who radically transformed his physical appearance in his 20s and being engaged to a make-up artist, I understand just how much room for improvement there is if you simply get down to work on making it happen. First off, if you are a woman, you should get your bodyfat down to 20%. If you are 25, 30, 35% bodyfat then right there is low-hanging fruit. Start working out and eating right. As a woman, for Chrissakes spend the $200-$500 dollars to go to a beauty professional and get a full makeover. Learn what hairstyle works best to complement your facial features. Learn the basics of applying makeup even for a “natural” look. Any woman, and I mean any woman can at least boost her SMV 1-2 points through losing any excess bodyfat, and maximizing her features.

  • Glasses

    Susan, I know! I hate Roissy and Roosh for this complete one-sidedness in their views, which is a shame, because both of them seem quite intelligent otherwise. Their stubborn inability to accept that “the end of game is love”, to quote Athol, is ridiculous and pitiful. I guess they are addicted to “game” and “pussy”, and just like all addicts’, their lives are kinda ruined because of the addiction.

    I may have an idea for HUS. Why not run a series of profiles of male celebrities who are devoted to their wives and families. Complete with pictures and “awwwwww” quotes about their wives and kids. Besides Roger Federed, Tom Hanks comes to mind. Who else?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Glasses

      I may have an idea for HUS. Why not run a series of profiles of male celebrities who are devoted to their wives and families. Complete with pictures and “awwwwww” quotes about their wives and kids. Besides Roger Federed, Tom Hanks comes to mind. Who else?

      Ah, I like that idea! Keith Richards. Barack Obama. Colin Firth. I’ll keep thinking.

  • Mike C

    And besides that–hasn’t anyone noticed that with guys there’s less of a grey-area of hotness? like girl rangre from 1 to 10 but with guys, its like…..ugh there’s a vast and sparse expanse between hot and not lol

    LOL, and from “from the mouths of babes comes truth”. And that folks, is hypergamy on full display. You’ve got the minority of “hot” guys, and everyone else is separated by “vast and sparse expanse” into the land of disgust (“ugh”). Its always funny to me how vehemently some stuff gets debated, and then you’ll have a new commenter who essentially confirms one side of the argument.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Its always funny to me how vehemently some stuff gets debated, and then you’ll have a new commenter who essentially confirms one side of the argument.

      She speaks for herself, not for all women. It’s hardly news that some women feel this way. It’s not exactly an “aha” moment.

  • Meer

    @Mike C

    1) ty for the encouragement about how my beauty is malleable–the problem is that a guy’s SMV value includes money, but I want a guy of equal physical attractiveneess regardless of money =(

    2) LOL well the thing is that OKcupid (I think) did a study and the data showed that attractiveness of males is like an exponential curve, with a hot minority and blah majority (according to ratings by females)–while ratings of women were dispersed more fairly and uniformly, with like a linear line or clight curve on the axes of population-of-women and attractiveness. (i hope you understand what I mean, google it or something).

    But it’s true lollol because look at it this way: women’s beauty, is, as Mike mentioned, malleable to an extent. They can compensate for small hips with long hair, for small eyes with small delicate hands, etc. Whereas for a man….as soon as you see that he lacks maculine proportions and has that yucky “shapeless” thing going on with small shoulders and wide hips……no hair gel or barbershop experience will help him. lol only suits help. but a guy cannot wear a suit every day unless he is a weirdo like Barney Stinson. XD

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OKcupid (I think) did a study and the data showed that attractiveness of males is like an exponential curve, with a hot minority and blah majority (according to ratings by females)–while ratings of women were dispersed more fairly and uniformly, with like a linear line or clight curve on the axes of population-of-women and attractiveness.

      That just means women are judgmental bitches, not that men are ugly.

  • Wudang

    “Wudang had a great comment somewhere that people will and can find people of their same SMV value attractive. Upon reflection I actually think there is alot of truth in this so a female 5-6 should and will be able to be attractive to a male 5-6.”

    You are probably thinking of a post I made in the ask men survey thread.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    LOL, and from “from the mouths of babes comes truth”. And that folks, is hypergamy on full display. You’ve got the minority of “hot” guys, and everyone else is separated by “vast and sparse expanse” into the land of disgust (“ugh”). Its always funny to me how vehemently some stuff gets debated, and then you’ll have a new commenter who essentially confirms one side of the argument.

    I’ve been saying something similar for a long time now. With looks, as with any standard distribution curve, there are far fewer people in the higher and lower parts of the curve. The majority of people fall within the middle.

    I think male looks can be divided into 3 categories:

    1. Ugly (SMV 1-3)- Problematic enough for me to want to gouge my eyes out.

    2. Average (SMV 4-6)- Average looking. Neither very attractive nor hideous. Such men elicit a “meh” feeling.

    3. Above average (SMV 7-10)- Very attractive looking. These are the men who habitually elicit the “stop women in their tracks” response.

    I really think that the idea of women not caring so much about male looks is a bit overblown. All of the women I know are aware of what man in any group is the most physically attractive. It’s not uncommon for a group of women to all be attracted to the same guy, especially if he has above average looks. Yes, women will make tradeoffs for looks if a man brings other things to the table (Ex: Money, Status, Dominance, etc), but women also appreciate good looking men.

    Lately, when talking to my female friends from theatre, they have all focused on the exact same man. They all say the same thing too. It’s always a variation of “He’s so HOT!!!”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I really think that the idea of women not caring so much about male looks is a bit overblown.

      I agree. It explains why good-looking non-dominant males get lots of opportunities for sex. Their faces alone draw women.

      It’s true that both men and women can improve their SMV by getting in shape and looking their best. That said, a 6 of either sex who gets their act together is probably not going to realistically compete with a natural 8 who hasn’t made the same degree of effort. Facial attractiveness is only so malleable.

      Hot bodies can also work, but only men go for butterfaces. I think women place great value on the appeal of a man’s face, though I don’t think it has to be classically handsome. As Seth Meyers said, God gave women a blind spot re humor. A funny guy can always punch above his weight, and Game helps too, obvs.

  • Alias

    Obsidian,
    Hope’s niche may have been white nerds, but I’m not seeing how her advice doesn’t mesh with;
    A- lower your standards B- recognize what qualities are important in marriage-minded men.
    Plus her suggestions on what to offer a marriage-minded man are spot on, IMO- maybe because very similar strategies worked for me and I’m not Asian, husband’s STEM but I wouldn’t call him a nerd.

    It seems as if you’re under the impression that all she had to do was sit back because she’s Asian and her husbands a “nerd”. Hope’s husband didn’t pursue her, she was the one who was proactive in demonstrating her interest first, I believe she even paid for his airplane tickets so they can meet, she financially supported him through school, etc..
    Perhaps you’re missing some of the history on her marriage and that’s why you think her advice is irrelevant to others, is that the case?
    Her suggestions aren’t very different from what grandmas used to give, so I’m honestly not seeing why you’re dismissing her, I’m not getting it.
    As you like to say, please explain.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Alias

      I agree re Hope. I think her advice is widely applicable. She’s not promoting nerds, she’s sharing extremely helpful strategies for initiating and emotionally escalating with the man of her choice.

  • Wudang

    2) LOL well the thing is that OKcupid (I think) did a study and the data showed that attractiveness of males is like an exponential curve, with a hot minority and blah majority (according to ratings by females)–while ratings of women were dispersed more fairly and uniformly, with like a linear line or clight curve on the axes of population-of-women and attractiveness. (i hope you understand what I mean, google it or something).

    This probably reflects that women ignore men below a certain threshold not so much how men actually look. If you rate men according to symmetry and other objective beauty characteristics you will likely see a curve that is not so different from the female curve. The critical point here is that the women rated most men as below average and that is mathematically impossible. Men rated half above and half below women far too many below and far too few above. This reflects their way of ignoring lower ranking men not the mens objective looks.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Men want to work hard for sex. Women want to work hard for commitment.

    You really think these are two sides of the same coin? IMO they’re neither analogous nor comparable phenomena…

  • Mike C

    Men want to work hard for sex. Women want to work hard for commitment.

    I don’t think this is quite 110% accurate although the general intent is right. I think women want to work hard for commitment, but I think the analogue is men ONLY VALUE sex they had to work for, hence the entire existance of the two ladders. Many men will take easy sex if they can get it, but they can’t simultaneously put a high value on the woman willing to dish out easy sex whereas they can if they had to “work for it” at least somewhat. And this is where you get the huge cognitive dissonance with a woman who made some men “work for it” and others handed it out with no effort.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think women want to work hard for commitment, but I think the analogue is men ONLY VALUE sex they had to work for, hence the entire existance of the two ladders.

      And women only value commitment they have to work for. I do see them as analogous.

      Megaman, why don’t you?

  • Abbot

    “It’s not uncommon for a group of women to all be attracted to the same guy…”

    …and not uncommon for that guy to get his penis into each member of that group if they allow him to [the root cause of the HSMP]

    How does that play out for a group of men who are all attracted to the same woman?

  • Mike C

    “It’s not uncommon for a group of women to all be attracted to the same guy…”

    …and not uncommon for that guy to get his penis into each member of that group if they allow him to [the root cause of the HSMP]

    LOL

  • Meer

    @ Wudang

    Maybe you are right. After reading a blog post on heartiste about an experiment on how many messages get sent to men and women of varyign attractiveness on dating sites……This is my thinking:

    Women dismiss guys below a certai nthreshold and that also taints their opinion of the guy’s attractiveness. Whereas men also ignore girls below a certain threshold, but still acknowledge that she is not that bad–since women are programmed to go for the best while men have to keep all options open for spreading their seed (evo psych-wise)

    @Obsidian

    About asian boys–it depends. Yes, being white gives leverage but only if the asian guy is looking for white girls to begin with and has been influenced by the asian media undertones that sort of glorify white beauty. And the guys that go after girls like that/me are the more masculine ones–not (unfortunately) the pretty pop-band type of guys–but the ones that work out, get tattooos, etc. haha tho no complaints there either.

    And they are easier to date because their upbringing predisposed them to look for LTR and commit right away. Which….lol to be honest trapped me in relationships too early and soemtimes comes off as ew and needy even if the guy is hot. They are also affectionate.
    However. I only officially DATED (not even had a relationship with) one white guy before. And he isn’t the norm–he was raised in africa, has great, values, but is beta. So I cannot compare asian males to typical white guys.
    Hopefully that will change because I’m becoming open to trying out white guys now (before I was scared because the media portrays them as whores and they are not as pretty as asians…)

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias #240:
    Wrt Ms. Hope –

    Ms. Alias, in no way am I saying that Ms. Hope, or any other Asian Woman for that matter, has it all in the bag, only needs to show up and let the Beta Guys form a line to the left; what I’m saying, is that because of who she is in American dating/mating life, AND because of who she and other Asian Women tend to be attracted to, YES, she can and will have a decided advantage out there on the open market. This market advantage is simply silly to deny, and I think Ms. Hope would acknowledge this fact. It just makes her job and life much easier, and I think she knows it – indeed, she’s spoken to this previously in this forum.

    HBD matters here. It is, what it is.

    O.

  • Mike C

    I’ve been saying something similar for a long time now.

    True, but your preferences, views, inclinations, etc. are routinely held up here as an anomaly, not representative of many women. I’m not inclined to debate that, but that statement is a fact.

    I really think that the idea of women not caring so much about male looks is a bit overblown.

    Well….I agree and have said as much a great number of time. The blogger who shall not be named had a great post about the importance of male looks backed by research. The “looks don’t matter” meme was created so that male 4-5s could be sold on the idea that with just enough “Game” they could get female 8-9s. The notion is preposterous, and I have info that some of the male PUAs with high Ns and pretty low on looks are in fact getting those numbers with physically average to unattractive women. Very physically attractive women don’t have sex with physically unattractive men for the most part. All that said, looks don’t matter as much to women as men. The fact that the term “sexy ugly” exists is de facto proof of that. For men, the term is a pure oxymoron.

    Lately, when talking to my female friends from theatre, they have all focused on the exact same man. They all say the same thing too. It’s always a variation of “He’s so HOT!!!”.

    Right. But he can still lose with the display of certain personality traits and way of interacting. In fact, we have demonstrable proof of that on this thread.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Obsidian, but I am white and want a skinny nerdy intelligent boy. Doesn’t mean they want me. They want asians.

    I married a nerd and I’m AfroCaribbean and one of my husband’s nerdy friends domestic partner is AA, so I think you might have a better chance than you think you do.

    Any woman, and I mean any woman can at least boost her SMV 1-2 points through losing any excess bodyfat, and maximizing her features.

    Cosign this. The cliche of the nerdy girl that becomes a hottie is not so much of a cliche. The right haircut, clothes, weight and attitude can elevate someone’s SMV value and I will say guys can benefit from this too, maybe not as much but certainly they can improve their looks with the right exercises, haircut and clothing.

    Besides Roger Federed, Tom Hanks comes to mind. Who else?

    Denzel Washington, Danny de Vito, Will Smith, Steven Spielberg, Hugh Jackman…

  • Alias

    Obsidian,
    “HBD matters here. It is, what it is. ”
    ———-

    Absolutely!
    But HBD alone isn’t going to cut it nowadays.
    Don’t know if you missed my post on the other thread where I mention that a couple of the women I know who stayed involuntarily single (now coming to grips with their situation) are attractive women while other less attractive women have husbands & kids.
    These women I know were given advice but they wouldn’t have it, they made their choice.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Anacaona:
    “I married a nerd and I’m AfroCaribbean and one of my husband’s nerdy friends domestic partner is AA, so I think you might have a better chance than you think you do.”

    O: I never sugggested otherwise. Moreover, I’m not entirely sure your experience is one that can “scale”. Just sayin.

    “Cosign this. The cliche of the nerdy girl that becomes a hottie is not so much of a cliche. The right haircut, clothes, weight and attitude can elevate someone’s SMV value and I will say guys can benefit from this too, maybe not as much but certainly they can improve their looks with the right exercises, haircut and clothing.”

    O: This is already covered in “The Game”. You’d know this if you’d actually taken the time to read it.

    As for the ladies: they can go up about a point on the scale, maybe a point and a half. The idea that Women can shoot up three and four points and the like is just more female wish fulfillment.

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias #251:
    “Absolutely!
    But HBD alone isn’t going to cut it nowadays.”

    O: No?

    Two guys walk into a club. One is 6’2, 190lbs, cut and in shape, and has leading Man looks.

    The other is Style.

    Both have ultra tight Game.

    Who wins? (looks at you know who)

    “Don’t know if you missed my post on the other thread where I mention that a couple of the women I know who stayed involuntarily single (now coming to grips with their situation) are attractive women while other less attractive women have husbands & kids.”

    O: Up in NYC? Yea, I saw it.

    “These women I know were given advice but they wouldn’t have it, they made their choice.”

    O: Yup, they have; history has many instances of spinsters…

    O.

  • Joe
    Besides Roger Federed, Tom Hanks comes to mind. Who else?

    Denzel Washington, Danny de Vito, Will Smith, Steven Spielberg, Hugh Jackman…

    Hey wait. Forgive me if I’m wrong about this, but didn’t Tom Hanks leave his first wife after having an affair with Rita Wilson, his current wife?

    I’m not sure he’s a posterboy for the Good Looks and Faithful award.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Forgive me if I’m wrong about this, but didn’t Tom Hanks leave his first wife after having an affair with Rita Wilson, his current wife?

      Boo, I would find that very disappointing. :(

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “Who wins? (looks at you know who)”
    ——-
    High SMV allows those doors to fling open for you. Always has, always will. But it’s not enough to keep you in a marriage which is what I’m talking about.

  • Mike C

    As for the ladies: they can go up about a point on the scale, maybe a point and a half. The idea that Women can shoot up three and four points and the like is just more female wish fulfillment.

    I’ll disagree with you here a bit Obsidian with a few exceptions. Shooting up 3-4 points depends on the starting point. The lower the starting point especially vis a vis weight the more room for improvement there is. My fiancee easily went up 3-4 points from age 28 to 32. Many women are carrying excess bodyfat…full stop. Just getting to 15-20% bodyfat gets you a full point to 1.5 points right there. Furthermore, many women are clueless about hairstyles, skin maintenance, and proper application of makeup to achieve certain looks. I’ve seen the before and afters of models that my fiancee works on for photoshoots. You’d be amazed. Whatever facial features you have, there are tricks and certain things to highlight positive features and downplay negative ones.

  • Alias

    #255
    Meant to add;
    High SMV doesn’t necessarily lead you to the courthouse.

  • Wudang

    Meer:

    Yes, I think it is more about the female selection mechanism than about objective looks. I also think men are programmed to give it a shot with women out of their league when possible but quickly give up and go for what is more realistic. This is especially true online where sending a message to a woman way too hot for you has about zero consequences in terms of psychological impact of rejection compared to approaching in a bar or on the street. The mechanism still functions IRL although it is highly moderated because of fear of rejection. I can not count the endless amount of times I´ve been at parties and guys I know or guys that are there are sort of trying to pick up a woman way beyond their league. The emphasis here is on sort of trying because when they shoot far out of their league they don`t go all in but try to seduce her without it seeming like they are, in other words their strategy is more covert beta pickup than if they shot for someone more realistic. They are basically trying to be friendly charming and then looking to see if they hooked some interest to play further with. I`ve done the same exact thing back in the day. We usually always want to sort of try.

    Of course this almost never works but occasionally it does. The conventional wisdom is that men and women get in relationships at about their value and that men have casual sex with women somewhere below or sometimes at their value but never above. That is true in almost all cases but there are a many guys that have had one, maybe two women that where far above the others. I think part of the explanations is partly that sometimes you can get lucky and be there at the right time at the right moment. At rare times a woman is really, really looking to hook up, she might also be vulnerable because of dumping or something and so more susceptible to the game of someone below her that takes the chance. This is very rare, but it does happen. The second reason I believe is flashes of alpha. It is an extremely common story in the sphere that the guys have experienced getting a girlfriend at a time they where displaying alpha traits they normally would not. Being busy made them seem less available and hence less needy, knowing they where leaving the country made them less afraid of rejection, some activity made them feel extra confident etc. So, it is quite common for guys to sometimes reach a bit higher and so it pays to keep trying. The difference between men and women is that men far more easily do get attracted at their own level when they give up.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias #255:
    “High SMV allows those doors to fling open for you. Always has, always will. But it’s not enough to keep you in a marriage which is what I’m talking about.”

    O: No? OK, let’s put that to the test, shall we?

    In contemporary American life, who has the highest rates of marital stability, by race/ethnic group? For example, we know that Black couples have the hardest time staying together, and that’s true even when you adjust for education and earnings/income. BM/WW couples breakup at higher rates than the reverse. AW/WM breakup rates – is there such a thing? And so forth.

    Although, yes, there is a very salient argument to be made for environmental pressures; but, at some point deep down, one can’t help escaping the thought – the very, very, heretical thought – that some groups just might be “built” more for the kinds of LTR pair bonding that we have come to see as normative in the West, especially over the past half century. I do think HBD can inform this, both on the individual level (keep in mind, that Ms. Walsh herself has discussed this previously; some people have higher brain chemical amounts that seek excitement and the like than others, etc.) and group levels.

    Back to you… ;)

    O.

  • Alias

    Cooper:
    “Well, no. I just don’t like the idea of having to fabricate the attraction – as if it’s up to me to get her to want to want me. I want a woman who makes up her own mind, and that requires being confedent in showing some initial interest. ”
    ——
    >She should be showing interest all along- but if she’s the kind who can’t separate emotions from sex then she won’t be “head over heels” with you until you tap into her emotions.
    ________________

    Sassy:
    “Yes, women will make tradeoffs for looks if a man brings other things to the table (Ex: Money, Status, Dominance, etc), but women also appreciate good looking men.”
    ——
    > *Women aren’t visual* just means that you have to engage ALL of her senses, not just what’s visual, to gain/maintain her interest.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Mike C #256:
    Oh yea, I know what you mean, as not only was my youngest sister a fashion model herself, but Ms. Brown Sugah, who among other things is an excellent photographer, has done shooting “behind the scenes” of several photoshoots and I’ve seen many “before/after” pics. Here’s the thing, though:

    Those models were still hot. Even without all the photoshop. Even without the makeup. And hairstyling. and clothing.

    Yea, losing the weight is a big deal, pardon the pun – which reminds me…

    The other day, Ms. Brown Sugah was having a conversation with a lady who is in her 80s, and the lady was saying how Black Women have really blown up like balloons over the course of her lifetime; moreover, she’s discussed how her own grand daughter doesn’t do anything all day but stuff her face. No doubt, Black Men like em thick, but its clear that many Black Women think fat is thick, and this is not true. However, because many of these Women can and will get sex, they mistakenly think they’re actually desirable in an LTR mate context. They are not. Depending on the SES level we’re discussing, the simple, harsh truth is, that it is very possible that the only Men said Woman can attract are the ones who are willing to have sex with them because she has put that out on offer, and because, as we both know, most Men do NOT get laid, said Men can and will take her up on said offer. Many of these Women then attempt to have a baby in order to “lock him in”, which simply doesn’t work these days (they can thank the Feminists for that, are ya listening, Ms. Courtley?), and they’re in an even deeper hole. Spend an afternoon looking at VH1′s “Video Soul”; you’ll see real quick what Black Men desire most when they’re in a position to actually call the shots.

    But yea, again, I definitely agree with you – a Woman hitting up Sephora, slimming down a bit (this is relative, lots of calibration needed depending on your target market, age, etc et al), and getting a hairstyle that actually works for you as a Woman, all of it, is huge. By the way, are you familiar with the Black Women’s Health Study? Ms. Brown Sugah turned me onto it because she’s done some work with/for them in the past. She’s on their mailing list and they send her out updates and the like from time to time.

    Well, they’ve found a link between the hair relaxers and the like that Sistas use, and UTERINE FIBROID TUMORS. That’s right, the attempts on the part of many Sistas to look White – urged by Brothas – is actually life threatening.

    Deep.

    O.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Alias

    A- lower your standards B- recognize what qualities are important in marriage-minded men.
    Plus her suggestions on what to offer a marriage-minded man are spot on, IMO- maybe because very similar strategies worked for me and I’m not Asian, husband’s STEM but I wouldn’t call him a nerd.

    Thank you, and I totally agree. :) It’s now midday here and too hot for my brain to function properly, plus I’m too pregnant and tired of these debates back and forth, especially with certain commenters who go on and on and on and on and on…

    Suffice it to say being Asian and thin wouldn’t have meant jack squat without the rest of the package. People tend to place so much emphasis on looks and superficial stuff, but a lifelong marriage requires so much more. Sometimes I wonder if people here really actually want marriage and all that it entails, or if they just think it’d be a swell idea.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “In contemporary American life, who has the highest rates of marital stability, by race/ethnic group?”
    ——–

    Let’s go ala C Murray and leave race out of the equation.
    Are there any studies that show that people on the higher HBD scale have higher marriage rates/lower divorce rates?
    to clarify, HBD? = are we talking physical looks or are we talking marriage market value? ‘Cause I’m using the former definition not the latter.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Bellita:

    @SayWhaat
    I love your new avatar!

    Thanks! I came across it randomly and it had to be mine. :P

  • Alias

    Yeah, not everyone is geared towards LTRs, you’ve agreed with this. For those who are, I think their best bet is to take advice from those who have been successful, don’t you think?
    I mean, do you apply the same logic when it comes to obesity- that since AAs have higher obesity rates, they shouldn’t follow advice from people of other races with lower obesity rates/diabetes? I’m not following your logic. Yeah, a lot of folks will remain obese because they won’t change their lifestyle, so? The advice is still helpful for those who are willing to do the work. What do you think?

    Obsidian:
    “at some point deep down, one can’t help escaping the thought – the very, very, heretical thought – that some groups just might be “built” more for the kinds of LTR pair bonding that we have come to see as normative in the West ”

  • Meer

    @ Susan, Obsidian, etc.

    lol I didn’t need to be told that i’m not hot enough. I already know it. My self-esteem is low enough for me to not even have self-serving biases.

    even though guys that liked/loved me asserted that i am above average, and I’ve overheard being called a 6 or 7 (don’t rmeember which), I conservatively estimate myself to be a 5, since I hate my looks and some guy friends have confirmed that I am def. NOT better than average.

    And as for what I’m aiming towards….I don’t really know myself. But my taste is also slightly diff. from mainstream. And I’m not exactly hunting for a long-term bf right now. I have other issues to worry about (i.e. career/job/surviving after graduation)–so i haven’t given much thought to my ideal man or whatev.

    But i REALLY don’t want it to be one of those shapeless men I mentioned before lol. I shall waist-train with a real corset and achieve a perfect 0.7 WHR just to avoid that lol.

    And god kill me if my guy is not taller than me–tho that is not an issue, i am only 5’2 XD

  • Alias

    Obsidian,
    Just adding something else for you to think about or get back to me when you get a chance, if I’m off the mark or misunderstanding you.
    You’re an AA man who’s always referencing Mystery, Strauss, and Buss- they’re all white guys, right? Didn’t you follow and claim success by using their strategies? So, why is Hope’s advice inapplicable to women of other races?

  • Wudang

    “And with it, the attraction triggers evolved. Those previously lower ranking men became the men that women usually choose to marry. This is why Buss cites a whole bunch of beta traits as keys to female desire.

    The research that you linked to about sociosexuality also demonstrates that women find men with restricted sexuality significantly more facially attractive than men who are promiscuous.”

    Somewhat evolved. The question is does the beta traits in themselves create desire or do they allow desire for alpha traits to be felt or acted upon. I would say it is clearly a case of the beta traits allowing the attraction to be acted upon not generating it per se reliability just do not create tingles and neither do investment or understanding or any of that stuff it just allows it to be felt or felt and acted upon. The essential fact is that the value of commitment is the certainty of having the investment continue not the value the resource being invested in itself.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, re: your last comment, Roissy had a post about OKQ survey and he concluded that the reason women rated 80% of men unattractive was hypergamy, they are all shooting too high. But when the topic came up here, quite a few of your gals confirmed it and said that, indeed, they found only about 20% of men handsome. However, the “good news” was that they were not simply seeking good looks so some of the guys still had a shot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Roissy had a post about OKQ survey and he concluded that the reason women rated 80% of men unattractive was hypergamy, they are all shooting too high. But when the topic came up here, quite a few of your gals confirmed it and said that, indeed, they found only about 20% of men handsome.

      Isn’t that confirmation of Roissy’s view?

      I recall that thread and I said that as I go about my business, I think at least half of the men I see are attractive. The women thought I was crazy. I really do wonder if women haven’t gotten their wiring really tangled since the Sex Rev.

  • Ion

    Obsidian:

    ” For one thing, you are an Asian Woman, which, in the American mating marketplace, gives you a higher position from which to bargain and horsetrade for what you want. ”

    I know that you, and a few others, have spread such ideas around the manosphere with the vigor of a scientology cult, but this is WAY oversimplified. Specifically, there’s been a lot of floating hypocrisy on your part about whether women are “choosing” specific men, or if these are the ones who are available to them, therefore affecting said womens choices.

    Being middle class and around whites, plus stereotypes of being into white guys; feminine and cute, puts asian women in a position of being more “approachable” to average, less extroverted1-6 SMV beta guys. That means an AVERAGE not high SMV, that is likely to get them married to average men.

    The other point that is often lacking in this discourse is that some of these women are not attracted to nerdy asian men…so they don’t possess any magical “preference” for nerdy guys based on ultra-femininity. They are likely still human women who have the standard desire for a beta with some dominance, but to them, things like whiteness (and height) possibly fulfill their standard “American” need for female hypergamy and alpha traits. Combine this with an SMV that makes them appealing for average white male betas, and its considered an even pair off and an ideal match.

    How you related asian womens choices to black womens choices was also inappropriate. First of all, there is no “girl next door” stereotype for average black girls (we’re either considered below average, or “hot” which is as threatening to many average men as any high SMV), so we’re not considered as approachable as the same pool of asian women, not to betas at least.

    And again, beta black men are considered more “masculine” than their nerdy white counterparts, all things being equal. So it’s not as simple as “other races of women want nerds”, we just don’t consider a black woman drooling over black betas a “nerd chaser”. His being black boosts his perceived masculinity, behavior, and SMV in a way that makes him an unsavory candidate for a relationship most of the time.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I think her going for a guy 5-7 years older is a great strategy and I don’t really see much downside in terms of age.

    I like older men (between 28 and 35), and I’m focusing my attention on them. The men that I’ve met who have been younger than 28 have either been really immature or unwilling to commit.

    As much as I think that Sex in the City has some bad messages, I can’t help but think of the “cab light” scenario. I think that older men are more willing to suddenly settle down, in general.

  • Jackie

    @Meer, Susan

    “I didn’t need to be told that i’m not hot enough. I already know it. My self-esteem is low enough for me to not even have self-serving biases.”

    Aww, Meer!

    I don’t know you, but I do know what it’s like to have low self-esteem. I would work on getting your self-respect up, which will make it a lot easier to get the job done re: whatever improvements you see fit.

    The more you respect yourself the easier it will be to be self-disciplined with working out and eating right.

    Obsidian, you seem to be obsessed with telling women they are “NOT HOT ENOUGH” and remarking on their prospects. I really wish you would stop to consider your tone, sometimes.

    When you speak (write) the truth from a place of empathy, your message will be compelling and actually make people want to do something.

    WHEN YOU YELL IN CAPS, IT FEELS LIKE YOU ARE SHOUTING IN MY EAR. AND THE ONLY THING I WANT TO DO IS RUN AWAY. IT IS A LESS-THAN-PERSUASSIVE FORM OF RHETORIC, IN MY OPINION.

    Respectfully :-)

  • Mike C

    And women only value commitment they have to work for. I do see them as analogous.

    The key difference is men will take sex from a woman that they didn’t have to work for, but women won’t take commitment from a man that they didn’t work for.

    A simple thought experiment. An average to slightly above-average woman walks into a bar and says “Any of you guys want to fuck me tonight”? How many takers you think she would have?

    Alternatively, an average to slightly above-average man walks into a bar and says “Any of you women want to be my girlfriend”? How many takers you think he would have?

    As Obsidian says, to ask the question is to answer it, and there is your difference where they are not 100% analogous.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The key difference is men will take sex from a woman that they didn’t have to work for, but women won’t take commitment from a man that they didn’t work for.

      You’re right. Unless…perhaps a beta orbiter is the equivalent of the easy lay. He’s the easy committer, showering the woman with attention and affection. And he’s on a different ladder than other men.

  • Mike C

    Hot bodies can also work, but only men go for butterfaces. I think women place great value on the appeal of a man’s face, though I don’t think it has to be classically handsome.

    I think this is mostly true, but there is a huge middle ground between stunning face and butterface that most men probably occupy. Body, except for height is extremely malleable. FWIW, I’ve found a pretty big differential in terms of what most women state here in terms of desired muscularity versus what I’ve seen more in real life.

    Male facial characteristics seems very complex to me, and I’ve haven’t been able to quite nail it down. I’ll say this, in my experience, you could have some women that find a particular face very attractive, and another set of women that find that exact same face “Meh”.

    I suspect what is going on is that women who prefer less dominant men personality wise prefer more gentle prettier faces (kind of pretty good looking) with normal builds whereas women who prefer more dominant men personality wise prefer more “rugged” good looks with more developed muscularity. This is just a working theory at this point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I suspect what is going on is that women who prefer less dominant men personality wise prefer more gentle prettier faces (kind of pretty good looking) with normal builds whereas women who prefer more dominant men personality wise prefer more “rugged” good looks with more developed muscularity. This is just a working theory at this point.

      I think that’s a good theory – it makes sense.

  • Ion

    Hope: “For some girls, the guy showing some initiative in talking to her actually piques her interest, whereas before his initial move, she had no interest.”

    I agree totally. I seem to think men are neutral until they show interest, some of these men I hadn’t even noticed before (only realizing how attractive they were after they smiled at me, etc). Every guy I’ve dated/went on a date with showed interest first, if not, it is very possible I wouldn’t have noticed them. I sometimes wonder if, for men, different game needs to be used on shy girls lol.

  • Jackie

    @Meer, Mike C (232)

    Mike C, you speak the truth regarding the malleability of looks! Just google some pics of “before and after make up” and it is *amazing* what can be done!

    Also agree on getting a professional (based off a really good recommendation) teach you how to do your make-up and hair, along with their product recommendations. That was some of the best money I ever spent, to get a 2-hr lesson with a woman who has done make-up professionally (she had worked on tv shows and helped on some movies, cool!).

    I would say the price tag is cheap, if it can have a huge impact on your life.

    Also, I would add to your comment, in addition to losing weight (if necessary, don’t want anyone to get anorexic!), is to really learn what kind of clothes work best on your body.

    For example, empire dresses, waistlines, etc, make me look 20+lbs heavier, so I avoid them like the 7 plagues of Egypt! If I wear a 2+ longer inseam and add heels, so my hemlines are just sweeping the floor, it creates a kind of flattering illusion (more height, less width). Boatnecks or V-necks will trump a high collar, any day of the week (as the latter cuts off your neck, makes you look boxy).

    There are about a million different adjustments you can make to flatter your shape– or NOT! If you’re just getting started, the what-not-to-wear books (British version) are a good primer.

    I also recommend finding your most flattering tones, with bright colors being a plus. For example, I look really really really awful in white, but I do OK in cream.

    I would also consider finding someone who is photographed a lot (movie, tv actors, etc) who really is working a style you like, and look at lots of pics of them to see what is working for them and why.

    Someone is more hipster-y might like Zoey Deschanel as their style “spirit animal” or inspiration– you could get tons of ideas from her! I really like retro clothing and look at a lot of what Dita von Teese wears for ideas– I really hope gloves make a comeback! ;-) Again, the idea is to see observe someone who is being professionally assisted with their look, and see what insights you can glean and use to improve yourself.

    Hope this wasn’t overbearing! Just my 0.02 :-)

  • Wudang

    “A funny guy can always punch above his weight, and Game helps too, obis.”

    http://www.unm.edu/~psych/faculty/articles/Intelligence%202011.pdf

    Funny men do get laid more according to this study. The study suggests it is a proxy for intelligence. I think the value of humor lies more in that any sort of humor gives social power. I also believe cocky funny and self amused humor is more attractive than other types of humor because it signals dominance and signals ability to win one up man ship contests with cocky humor and to dominate through humor. Think about how important using humor to one up each other is in movies depicting a group of (alpha) men doing brave stuff together or battling each other is.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Mike, you may be aware of this, but something like your posed thought experiment was done at FSU in the late 80s or early 90s. A very high-SMV female research assistant hung out on campus and propositioned male students and the results were recorded.

    IIRC, there were three questions asked, one of which was about willingness to go out on a date later and one that was about going somewhere and having sex immediately. Something well north of 90% of the students were willing to have sex with the girl immediately, and those most of those few who declined did so apologetically citing that their girlfriends were waiting for them, could they take a raincheck, etc.

    An attractive man was used to survey female students and it will come as no surprise to anyone here that the vast majority of women—I think it was actually close to 100%, but maybe it would be different today—declined the sexual request.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Wudang, this is anecdotal, but a common trait among everyone who survived Hell Week in my BUD/S class was the ability to see the absurdity in the training and to find it all somewhat amusing. A guy who could say something funny at the right time could start a chain reaction of camaraderie and morale enhancement that helped the rest of us make it through some very tough times.

    The instructors would of course usually find and punish the comedian, but they did so in a way that suggested that they secretly liked him.

  • Mike C

    Bastiat,

    That is interesting, but not surprising. I was unaware of that experiment. FWIW, I think we need more experiments and actual live tests. This is what academia *SHOULD* be doing in this area. In the area of male-female sexual dynamics, there is entirely too much theorizing and conclusions based on things millions of years ago instead of experiments to kind of help determine what is valid and what is not.

    To that experiment, I think one thing it points to is that for women raw attraction isn’t enough. A guy has to provide some level of “comfort” or “connection” as well. Of course, Mystery figured that out a long time ago.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In the area of male-female sexual dynamics, there is entirely too much theorizing and conclusions based on things millions of years ago instead of experiments to kind of help determine what is valid and what is not.

      Game rests squarely on a foundation of possibly erroneous conclusions about life one million years ago. Evo psych is the godfather of Game, as Obsidian frequently reminds us. :)

  • Iggles

    SW @ 184:

    Here’s what is enjoyable for women in the early days before we know where we stand:

    We love to analyze your every move, every stare across the room. We discuss this with our friends for hours! It’s a great feeling to have something brewing, and to share that with other women. It’s like any good drama – there is uncertainty, perhaps some conflict, and then resolution. You don’t want the end of the story before the journey has begun. If we aren’t sure how you feel, if perhaps we know that so-and-so thinks you’re cute, or that you have been seen talking to some girl, it’s torture! But then if we win the prize, if you choose us, it is such a sweet victory! Women are emotional, we love this stuff. In fact, most women would rather have a little drama and be disappointed, than have no intrigue at all.

    We love the anticipation of a slow build. Our stomachs flop over at the thought of the first kiss (Do guys experience this?). We want to prolong the agonizing pleasure of waiting until the time is right.

    I categorically disagree with this, especially the parts in bold.

    I know I’m considered an outlier here, but I don’t find the uncertainly of the initial dating phase “fun” at all. It’s strife with anxiety for me. One guy I dated had me on pins and needles, not knowing where I stood. It didn’t make him more “hot” to me. Instead it made me an insecure basketcase, constantly analyzing our interactions with friends for reassurance. It was not a good feeling, and an experience I knew I would not like to repeat in the future.

    In fact, what I loved about the early dating days with my boyfriend was that he made it clear he was interested in me, initated dates, and let know he was just as excited to see how things would go with us as I was! (I remember in our early conversations we bonded over the fact that we favored talking on the phone over texting potential dates.)

    Anyway, my point is not simply NAWALT. I have a theory on this — perhaps our differences in this regard is due to personality type. You’re an extrovert and I am introvert (the breakdown is about 75/25). I think it definitely colors our views. For example, by and large extroverts love meeting new people and social situations energize them. In contrast, introverts are anxious to meet new people and are drained by social situations (we need time alot to recharge; our ideal ‘party’ is dinner with a small group of friends).

    Hope I didn’t veer too far off track here, but IME being an introvert vs extrovert has a big impact social behavior & what kinds of interactions with other one prefers. What do you guys think?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Iggles

      Anyway, my point is not simply NAWALT. I have a theory on this — perhaps our differences in this regard is due to personality type. You’re an extrovert and I am introvert (the breakdown is about 75/25). I think it definitely colors our views.

      You may be right – I am interested to hear what other female introverts think. Whenever this topic comes up I am reminded of this line from Pride and Prejudice:

      Poor Jane. Still, a girl likes to be crossed in love now and then. It gives her something to think of… and a sort of distinction amongst her companions.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Iggles

    I don’t find the uncertainly of the initial dating phase “fun” at all. It’s strife with anxiety for me.

    Absolutely cosign this! If I recall correctly we’re both INF*, so that is probably the difference there. I hate the “pretend you’re not interested to get them interested” crap!

    Here’s a conversation between my husband and me, very early on:

    me: some guys make it really hard to love them, like they’d rather be distant or prefer to reject someone who loves them too much
    him: heh… yeah that’s definitely not me. then again, some women SWOON for that crap
    me: yeah. I’ve never liked guys that didn’t like me :p

  • J

    @szopen

    sure, NAWALT. But I would believe you only if some douchebag would go to you, actively trying to game you, and you would still give him firm f*off without having to fight off some of your instincts.

    Well, I’ve been out of the dating scene for 25 years, but I’ll tell you a story of one of my last encounters with a d-bag in a club. I was with some girlfriends when a guy came up to me and delivered what I now realize was a neg–not a teasing remark, but one that was slightly insulting in a way I now understand was supposed to “knock me of my pedestal” and be disarming. I was perplexed; I couldn’t understand why this perfect stranger had chosedn to say something weirdly and offensive to me. When I shook off the bafflement, I replied, “Yeah, OK” and walked away. I turned to a friend and asked WTF that was all about. She said, “He was trying to pick you up. No attraction at all.

  • J

    @david foster #179

    That’s a really hot quote and also describes how I woke up this morning. It’s a great way to start the day!

  • Alias

    Obsidian,
    Revisiting your posts, I see in my rush, I misread HBD for something else, so permit me to start again.
    What I’m not understanding is why on the one hand you want AA women to change their strategy and then when someone like Hope offers hers (which incorporates a lot of what you’ve acknowledge are necessary steps), you insist that it’ll be useless to AA women because essentially they’re stuck in their ways, they’re not Asian, etc, etc.. Or is it that you think that Hopes advice only works on white men, or white nerds?
    You’ve led some women here to take advice from Susan, who’s clearly not AA, so what’s the difference between her advice and Hope’s? I’m having a hard time figuring what advice you think would be good.
    Thanks.

  • Anonymous Beta

    Long-time lurker here. Being a Beta is for suckers. In the end you get screwed either way. While beta’s are great for Long-Term-Relationships, women will resent you for being Beta after the Beta characteristics wear off on them.

    My story is unique but I just want to dump some feelings here. If you want the short end of it, I ended up going to a high-class legal brothel in Europe to feel good for a change. I don’t regret it.

    I am a mid-30s beta male with a mid-30s wife. We have been together 15 years, married 12 years.

    Me: Short 5’6 , STEM w/glasses. I give myself 6/10 on the looks scale, 9/10 personality scale (). Sexual partner count before my wife: 0. Never even kissed a girl before my wife.

    Wife: A little taller, by 3-4 inches. Art/Design/Dance person. 9/10 looks scale (body like a super model, not kidding you). Personality 6/10 (she’s a bit of a difficult/bossy person). Sexual partner count: 7 (woman’s number mind you)

    After several unsuccessful years of trying to procreate, I find out I’m partially infertile due to a genetic abberation – meaning it is possible but the odds are quite low that I can have my own kids. This throws our relationship into turmoil, wife goes into depression, I got sick with illness that leaves me very tired – consequently my sexual desire drops. Throw in the IVF treatments, my wife is having mood swings, threatens and wants to have sex with other men because I am not attentive to her needs. Apologizes later and then broaches the subject again in another of her mood swings. I am ready to divorce, but somehow – not even I can remember now – we manage through it. I let her go through with donor sperm, and she gets pregnant. I am happy for her – she will have someone, while I have a large extended family, she has only her one mom and nobody else. Her mood improved greatly during pregnancy and after birth. She is happy. ME? Well what can I say. Some days I am happy about the little ones. But when I think about what happened before, I am devastated. I feel like a fool. Here I am raising someone else’s kid, for a woman that at one point was crazy and asked me to have sexual relations outside of the marriage.

    I thought about my life. Would I regret dying and never having been with another woman? Why is that I, a person that has done his best to do what is right, to not take advantage of women by having short term relationships with them and tossing them away? I’m sure some of the men in my wife’s previous life might have been serious about her, but there were probably some that just wanted to have fun and throw her away as well. Why do I need to go through life accepting crumbs when others had more?

    I live in Europe, in a country where brothels are legal and sex industry is well regulated and safe (as it can be given its risks). I went to a brothel. It is expensive, but you get the highest quality girls. I went twice in fact, and visited the same girl. It was an amazing experience – she played the part well and her body was perfect (you are sleeping with a 10/10 girl!), I realized all the experiences I missed out on when I was younger. The few girls I could have shared some intimacy with had I just been more brave or open to believing that I too could “score”. I really regret not having had more experiences. But in this way, I got a little bit of that back for myself. Will I do it again? I don’t know.. but I can tell you it has made me happier to have done it. Maybe it is some sort of revenge, or some sort of consolation prize after having been through what I’ve been through with my wife.

    Whether or not my marriage works out (I still get very upset about what she said to me) , at least I know I have some sort of an outlet. I know many women here will not like what I did. The biggest argument will be “what if you get something and give it to your wife”. The chance is there, but it is small at the place I go to (only condoms – no exceptions – and weekly blood tests/examinations) it is very slim.

  • J

    @Iggles

    I agree with you about hating drama, but I’m also an introvert. One thing I really loved about my DH and he that he loved about me was the lack of games and drama and the straightforwardness between us. He is also an introvert, BTW.

  • J

    @Anon Beta

    After several unsuccessful years of trying to procreate, I find out I’m partially infertile due to a genetic abberation – meaning it is possible but the odds are quite low that I can have my own kids. This throws our relationship into turmoil, wife goes into depression, I got sick with illness that leaves me very tired – consequently my sexual desire drops. Throw in the IVF treatments, my wife is having mood swings, threatens and wants to have sex with other men because I am not attentive to her needs. Apologizes later and then broaches the subject again in another of her mood swings. I am ready to divorce, but somehow – not even I can remember now – we manage through it.

    I generally am not sympathetic towards men who cheat, but I’ve been through the whole infertility thing as a result of my endometriosis and know how big a stressor infertility is on a marriage. Your wife said some really hurtful things to you and I can understand how those things, coupled with a lack of biological investment in the child, lead to your cheating. As a woman though, I can understand the desperation that lead your wife to say what she said. I think you have to either forgive her, stop cheating and commit to being a father to this child you gave her permission to conceive with donor sperm or leave the marriage and your wife to raise this child you regard as “someone else’s” in peace.

    While I’m sure your wife is happy to have the child now, I can assure you that she suffered a lot in trying to conceive it. If I were you I wouldn’t add to her suffering by letting her know you cheated, but I wouldn’t use the child as an excuse for further cheating (though I can understand how the sexual attention from a “skilled professional” made you feel better.) If you have to get out, make a clean break. Bear in mind that a court will find that this child is legally yours, no matter how you feel about it.

  • californio

    Tom Hanks has opened up about cheating on his first wife, admitting having an affair while he was married was “nothing to celebrate.” The star married Samantha Lewes in 1978 but began an affair with future wife Rita Wilson while they were filming Volunteers.

    In the June issue of Esquire magazine, the notoriously private star candidly recalls his cheating, saying, “Rita and I just looked at each other and – kaboing – that was that. I asked Rita if it was the real thing for her, and it just couldn’t be denied.”

    Commenting on the affair, he adds, “Well, yeah, I did happen to be married at the time. And there’s nothing to celebrate about that.”

    Hanks and Wilson wed in 1988 and have two children together, Chester, 15 and Truman, 10

    [There are any number of good, decent people who remain married and love and support one another without cheating. But they are common people and therefore few want to hear about them.][ Besides, no woman thinks it is "romantic" to hear about a forklift driver who celebrates 40 years of loving marriage. Her common reaction is : " A 'forklift driver'? Really!?"]

  • Courtley

    @Obsidian

    “Many of these Women then attempt to have a baby in order to “lock him in”, which simply doesn’t work these days (they can thank the Feminists for that, are ya listening, Ms. Courtley?)”

    I’m listening but not sure what your point is. I don’t think it’s honorable now, nor was it is in the past, for women to get pregnant in order to ‘keep’ a man. If feminists have somehow made such a trick less attractive or doable than it used to be (by getting women educated and into the workforce? is that your issue?) that’s another win for them in my book. I’ve got issues with contemporary feminism, as I’ve stated before, but I certainly don’t want to go back to a world where my life depended on my ability to attract and keep a husband, with the alternative being either becoming a financial burden on my extended family or turning to an extremely limited set of occupations. That world was pretty unkind to low-SMV women (and men, too).

  • Courtley

    @Iggles

    “Anyway, my point is not simply NAWALT. I have a theory on this — perhaps our differences in this regard is due to personality type. You’re an extrovert and I am introvert (the breakdown is about 75/25). I think it definitely colors our views. For example, by and large extroverts love meeting new people and social situations energize them. In contrast, introverts are anxious to meet new people and are drained by social situations (we need time alot to recharge; our ideal ‘party’ is dinner with a small group of friends).

    Hope I didn’t veer too far off track here, but IME being an introvert vs extrovert has a big impact social behavior & what kinds of interactions with other one prefers. What do you guys think?”

    I agree with this 110%.

    I think Susan is great and appreciate the blog a lot, but one thing to probably be aware of is the unusually high number of introverts who will be drawn to places like HUS simply because love and relationships are tougher for them, especially in a culture that values extroversion so much and in a sexual marketplace that really seems geared towards their wants and needs.

    By contrast, Susan reminds me of my mom a bit–a very attractive, outgoing, high-energy woman who got plenty of attention when she was young and dating due to the vital combination of looks and personality. I think the tribulations of being a wallflower are unfamiliar to people with this kind of personality. I love my mom, but my dating woes are a complete mystery to her. :D I can see how Susan’s description of a relationship build-up would be accurate for MANY women, a majority for sure, but is probably untrue for a lot of the lovelorn wallflowers who find their way to HUS. :)

    I think 75-25% split for extroverts and introverts in the general population is accurate, too. Female introverts are rarer but still a sizable minority who are unfortunately very misunderstood and misinterpreted often by a culture that loves and expects a ‘bubbly’ personality in its women. I’d love to see a post or entry on dating and mating tips specifically for female introverts on HUS. The wants and needs of women with this personality type are often pretty different from that 75% (or more) of extroverted women.

    Having said all that, while I dislike games and drama and feeling like I have to compete with lots of other women for a man’s commitment, if someone offers commitment too soon it’s uniformly regarded as creepy and inappropriate. You don’t commit to someone you don’t know well. I’m not sure what kind of timeline Cooper is working with on these women, but it is something to be aware of.

    @californio
    “Besides, no woman thinks it is “romantic” to hear about a forklift driver who celebrates 40 years of loving marriage. Her common reaction is : ” A ‘forklift driver’? Really!?”"

    Utter bullshit. Thanks for revealing your ugly character, I was agreeing you otherwise about Tom Hanks.

    This might be a good time for me to point out that I, at least, screen out for misanthropy and excessive cynicism. Those are never positive qualities in a romantic partner.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms courtley:
    Whoa, how do you make the leap from disagreeing with what californio said to making a character judgment based on him-using words like “ugly” “misanthrope” and “excessive cynicism”? How does that work? Please explain?

    Also: what i meant when referencing you above, is the fact that at one time in the not too distant past if a woman got pregnant the putative father was forced to marry her; this was referred to as the “shotgun wedding”. But one of the casualties of the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s was a doing away of this, and as per usual, those who bore the biggest brunt of the costs and downsides of side revolution were the lower classes, who needed those supports more than ever. Thats what i was talking about.

    As for my remark about women getting pregnant to keep a man, youd be surprised how often this happens. Read the book “promises i can keep”.

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms alias:
    I find it interesting that you would mention black women in my commentary re: ms hope; i didnt say anything about black women there, and even if i did it would not have changed my major thesis wrt ms hope:

    That, as an asian woman in american life, she brings certain assets, real or perceived, to the american mating marketplace. Whether thats “fair” or not, whether we like it or not, that is the truth.

    Whats also true, is that every group and every individual within every group, also brings assests and liabilities to said marketplace, for better or worse. We can gauge all of this by merely referring to census marital data, online dating site data and surveys and even our own anecdotal observations. No one here would seriously deny that a taller man will fare better than a shorter one all things being equal out on the open dating market-nor would, i dont think, anyone of you would balk at the idea that what works for the taller man might not necessarily work for the shorter one; so why all the hub bub over what i said?

    The smp is real. Nothing any of us can or will say, is going to change that. And within said smp, there can and will be winners and losers. On both the group and individual levels.

    None of this is new; what is, is our *attitude to it*. One of which is the idea that we are all the same-something that i find ironic, since one of the big criticisms and complaints from many women about game and puas is the idea that it/they approach women as if they were all the same and theyre not. Here i am then, plainly saying just that-that women indeed are not the same-and im getting a workout for that, lol. Im telling you, you can make this stuff up.

    Anyway, heres the deal: yes, youre right, i did and continue to cite the sources you mentioned. However it must also be said that i modified much of it to suit my particularities because they didnt speak to them. In most game venues online or off, little discussion is given to black women or black relationships-the default setting is “white” or failing that “honorary white” which usually means asian of “whiteish” hispanics etc. So, i was forced to figure out ways that the writings of strauss, mystery etc et al could work for me. I did and was successful-and again all of that only goes to shore up my point: that if you do not take into account the particularities of the smp you can and will most likely fail to achieve your objectives.
    Holla back

    O.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Bastiat Blogger 292
    My university in New Zealand repeated that experiment a few years ago and got almost exactly the same results. (I think it was closer to 100% for the guys.)

  • Anonymous Beta

    @L:
    I think you have to either forgive her, stop cheating and commit to being a father to this child you gave her permission to conceive with donor sperm or leave the marriage and your wife to raise this child you regard as “someone else’s” in peace.

    And while I wrote those things, understand that this comes from the negative perspective (the Bitter Beta perspective and how life has “screwed me over”). On the positive perspective, I love this child and really don’t care how they were made. The child will always have my support, love and protection.

    I was extremely hurt by her statement. Extremely hurt – completely gutted. I told my boss the same day I was getting a divorce. It takes a lot to make someone like me go do that, I was convinced it was over. Later that day she came back crying and apologizing and saying she doesn’t know why she said that. But then she did it again in another one of her depressed moods.

    I’m not pissed off about the donor thing, since I did agree to it. The IVF treatment was horrible for her and there was no sense in making her suffer for the small chance at having our own child. And who am I to deny her a child? Even we were to separate in the future, at least she would have her child.

    What I am pissed off about is that she has the gall to tell me that – and it’s like she revealed to me her true perception of me. That I’m some spineless beta loser, and I have no other options in my life but to let her do what she wants. That’s just a complete assault of my ego (whatever little of it I had), my sense of self-worth.

    I think it is possible for me to forgive her in time. Somehow, having the escort experience made me feel I’m now more open to forgive her. It allowed me to shed some of the resentment I had of her.

    While I’m sure your wife is happy to have the child now, I can assure you that she suffered a lot in trying to conceive it. If I were you I wouldn’t add to her suffering by letting her know you cheated, but I wouldn’t use the child as an excuse for further cheating (though I can understand how the sexual attention from a “skilled professional” made you feel better.) If you have to get out, make a clean break. Bear in mind that a court will find that this child is legally yours, no matter how you feel about it.

    No the child is not the reason I went to the escort. I’m actually over the fact of how the child was conceived. The issue for me was, here is someone who already had a lot of partner experiences before we met, and now was asking me for more experience (maybe even to have a child with another man, and then come back to me later, can you believe?). While here I am, the sucker who waited it out for the right girl, and has never known what it is like to be with another woman! I look back in my life and realized there could have been 5-6 girls that could have had a relationship with (I’m talking, clear signals). Some of them I turned down because of my insecurities, others because I was having a long-distance relationship with her for just a year and these women approached me but I ignored their advances. I could have been the guy who had some fun, but the beta sucker in me told me to be faithful. That is why I decided to go to an escort – I didn’t want to die with regret knowing I missed out on something.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I suspect what is going on is that women who prefer less dominant men personality wise prefer more gentle prettier faces (kind of pretty good looking) with normal builds whereas women who prefer more dominant men personality wise prefer more “rugged” good looks with more developed muscularity. This is just a working theory at this point.

    I think we talked once seeing pics of men how “unnapealing” muscles were to me. I always had a thing for my Bishonen men. And hubby does has one of the “nicest guy” faces I have ever seen. Totally my thing :)

    You’re an extrovert and I am introvert (the breakdown is about 75/25). I think it definitely colors our views.

    I think that is a good explanation but then I’m a bit of an anomaly because I’m a extravert and I hated the “anxiety” stage with a fire of three thousand supernovas. In fact a guy that was too “on the fence” was considered a red flag and quickly forgot. I have a million better things to do more pleasurable than angst at the phone waiting for some to call, and trying to figure it a man’s “feelings/intentions” with me. Like putting pins under my nails, putting out cigarettes with my bare hands, and walking barefoot on broken glass…Hubby also won me by being reliable and showing constant interest on me and only me and that is how I like it, again outlier feeling among women like you say, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Clearly I’m in the minority as a woman who likes the “pins and needles” phase of courtship. That makes me wonder about something, and I’d like the women to weigh in.

      Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts? Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you? Or do you see that initial stage as necessary but unpleasant?

  • Courtley

    @Obsidian

    californio can answer for himself, I think. I told him what I thought his comment indicated about him.

    I’m not really sure where we agree or disagree regarding shotgun weddings. Couples still often marry if the woman gets pregnant unintentionally, at least in my experience, but probably not as much as when women were less able to support themselves. I don’t think a system where men were ‘forced’ to do so was ever in effect, though, although there was more social pressure in the past. For women in the situation, I suppose that could be a downside to having the right to be in the workforce, from a certain perspective anyway. I don’t think it negates the positives of having that right, however–such as situations where the father refuses to marry the mother or gets hurt or laid off or dies or is otherwise unable or unwilling to support them. Being able to work and pay one’s own bills is a pretty vital ability IMO.

  • Wudang

    Anonymous beta:

    Have you been to marriedmansexlife.com? Best place for someone with marital problems in the opinion of everyone who roams these parts of the net.

    J:

    I saw a tv-show about infertility in guys. They made a bunch of guys with critically low sperm count drink one or two very large smoothies a day with a ton of vegetables and some fruit and within a few months most of them where fertile. A study also found that if infertile women (of fertile age) started meditating about 40-50% of them got pregnant. So stress seemed to have been critical.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms jackie:
    Hey how are ya? Thanks for the note. Heres my reply:

    If you and the rest of the forum will kindly recall, i said on several occasions over the past few weeks that men must manage their expectations accordingly as well. Indeed i have discussed at some length the fact that a 3 guy cannot hope to get a dime piece no matter how tight his game is. Best he can hope for is a 5.

    However i honestly dont think the problem is “even” as some might wish it to be and here i have at least some data on my side to back me up; as buss and even our own bastiat has made clear, men can and will “settle” both in str and ltr considerations, BECAUSE MOST MEN DONT GET LAID. Yes, i just used the all caps button. Why?

    BECAUSE OFTEN IN LIFE THINGS CAN COME AT YOU ON BLAST THATS WHY. And i like to reflect life in my style of writing. Its a stylistic thing i know, and it aint for errbody-just like errbody dont like the wire, or spike lee joints. Personally i dont get nor can stand woody allen but you dont hear me complain about him.

    Anyway, this whole “settling” thing is much more difficult for women to deal with than for men due to evopsych and when put together with bad ideas that have come to us courtesy of the cognitive elite (of which white umc feminists are a part), well, now you can see where the notion that a barely passable cohort of 4s and 5s are trying their darnest to “lockdown” an 8 guy, not realizing that the most they gonna get outta the deal is a bit of hump action on the downlow btw dates and hookups with hot babes. And yes, this is much bigger a problem than we’re willing to admit in polite company.

    Hopefully by now youve caught on that i dont get down like that.

    :)

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms courtley:
    Oh i have no doubt that bro californio can and most likely will speak for himself. I was merely responding to your wholly off the wall personal remarks about what you think you know of him based on a few comments he made. Agree or disagree with his position sure, but keep the personal assaults out of it. I find that many feminists do this quite a bit and yes i have evidence all day to back me up. From the sources you cited. Not exactly the best bunch of logicians over there.

    Anyway my point was about the fact that social systems-and yes it was a system-like shotgun weddings had a positive effect and actually helped women who werent umc and often white. Now that system is gone thanks to the very white umc feminists were talking about and theres nothing that was put in its place hence the oow birthrate situation obtaining in nonwhite areas of the country. I am pointing out another instance of the very real downsides of the cognitive elite in this case in the form of white umc feminist ideology that has had ruinous effects on the kinds of women im talking about-wome who by your own admission you dont know about nor care to.

    Wow. I could make a character judgment based on your myopia you know. Among other things. But i wont. Merely dismantling your arguments will suffice. :)

    Your other remarks about the right to work et al is not only relevant but dont apply since nonblack women have a very long history of working outside the home long before friedan came on the scene. Read the book/watch the film “the help” for more on this fact.

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    “Clearly I’m in the minority as a woman who likes the “pins and needles” phase of courtship. That makes me wonder about something, and I’d like the women to weigh in.”

    When I was younger, I did enjoy the pins and needles phase. After a series of anticipation phases ending in nothing, and now at 35 and still unmarried, I see the pins and needles thing as thinking like a silly little girl.

    A previous poster’s fake ball throw analogy comes to mind. I try to figure out if there’s actually a ball or not before I get excited about anything.

  • Courtley

    @Susan Walsh

    “Clearly I’m in the minority as a woman who likes the “pins and needles” phase of courtship. That makes me wonder about something, and I’d like the women to weigh in.

    Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts? Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you? Or do you see that initial stage as necessary but unpleasant?”

    I don’t think you’re a minority at all! Just a minority among HUS readers, probably. I think you’re probably more ‘normal’ than a lot of your readership. :)

    I, at least, like I said earlier, definitely think there’s such a thing as “too much, too soon.” Offering commitment to a near-stranger means you care more about the commitment, more about having a girlfriend, than you do about the actual woman in question.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    I want to ask you a question if you dont mind.

    Has it ever occured to you, that it is possible that your success as an american black woman has come at a price-at the least a tradeoff or two? If you have friends in the same boat or just know other black women in a similar situation, has this topic or question ever come up?

    I ask because i am not sure they-black women-understand or want to accept, the possibility that there may be some tradeoffs and unintended consequences as a result of the combined civil rights/womens rights movements.

    What do you think? No you dont need a sliderule or scatter dot graph for this one… ;)

    O.

  • Courtley

    @Obsidian

    Well, again, I don’t really go around calling myself a ‘feminist’ since it is a word with too many heavy connotations to really hash out most of the time. But if you’re trying to tell me that you actually spend some time reading the feminist blogs I mentioned instead of just reading what the Manosphere says ABOUT them, I’ll take that as a positive on your part.

    Anyway, this interests me:
    “Anyway my point was about the fact that social systems-and yes it was a system-like shotgun weddings had a positive effect and actually helped women who werent umc and often white.”

    I can see that. How did UMC white feminists destroy it for the non-white poor communities though? Are you referencing the welfare act that gave more benefits to single women than to families where there was still a man in the house? Because I can certainly agree that this or that piece of legislation was a bad idea while also appreciating the positives and advancements earlier feminists created in other ways. The women’s movement wasn’t perfect and had its hand in both pros and cons in our society.

    “Your other remarks about the right to work et al is not only relevant but dont apply since nonblack women have a very long history of working outside the home long before friedan came on the scene. Read the book/watch the film “the help” for more on this fact.”

    Oh, Obsidian, how can be relevant and yet not apply? :D
    I am aware that historically, women outside thewhite UMC were working before Friedan . . . but their opportunities for more education and better jobs were pretty limited before feminism, due to race and class AND GENDER. Isn’t removing at least one of those obstacles better for people who are already disenfranchised?

    Maybe you should tell us what we should kind of system there needs to be, exactly, that would solve some of the problems you talk about among lower socioeconomic classes as it relates to what you think feminism has created there. Because I’m just not connecting the dots between “before feminism black women had fewer educational and professional opportunities than they do now’ to ‘and this is has created an explosion of unwed mothers, unemployment and despair.’” The first does not seem responsible for the second. I’m not arguing in favor of the “promiscuity is super liberating and awesome” version of feminism that is in vogue now–I’m critical of that. But I do value and celebrate education and the ability to pursue vocational goals for all people regardless of race or gender. That’s not really a radical feminist position, you know.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “No doubt, Black Men like em thick, but its clear that many Black Women think fat is thick, and this is not true.”

    I agree. I think another contributor is how fat will get a pass before skinny will. The “thick” ideal itself is probably encouraging obesity more than black men think or care to admit. I’m 5’5″ and 135 lbs, size 4. When I tell most black men that I’m on a diet or trying to drop 5-10 lbs, he invariably tells me that I’m crazy. I’ve been on dates where my black male companion mocked me for eating too little. A lot of young black girls anticipate gaining weight if they feel they are too skinny. The idea in the black community is that “small” people do not “need” exercise. Exercise is only for the obese. Women who are “thick” actually avoid high impact exercise for fear of losing their “thick” assets. Many women even try to target just their midsection to try to acheive the King Magazine physique…fat hips, fat thighs, big bust, tiny waist. This is unrealistic for most women and leads to poor exercise regimes.

    In contrast, when I tell a non-Afro-american guy I am trying to slim down, he encourages it.

    My honest opinion is that I need to drop at least 5 more pounds and maintain that weight to be slim. I’m not interested in being “thick.” For all of the women who pull off that deal, good for them, but extra fat does not look or feel good on me.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “Has it ever occured to you, that it is possible that your success as an american black woman has come at a price-at the least a tradeoff or two?”

    In terms of dating/mating? I used to entertain that convo when I was searching for someone or something to blame. But nowadays I don’t do that anymore. What’s the point?

  • Courtley

    @Obsidian

    also:
    “white umc feminist ideology that has had ruinous effects on the kinds of women im talking about-wome who by your own admission you dont know about nor care to.”

    This is simply untrue, why would I ask you questions if I did not care? I’m just being honest about who I am and where I come from because I have no wish to appear act knowledgeable than I actually am in an online conversation. You’ve been asked by me to explain how expanded education and work opportunities for women has negatively affected the black community, specifically the lower socioeconomic part of it. I’ve apparently offended your delicate sensibilities several times on this site already by being too blunt, so I won’t harass you on here for an answer, but I would really be interested to hear it because this premise makes no sense to me.

  • Ion

    ” I think another contributor is how fat will get a pass before skinny will. The “thick” ideal itself is probably encouraging obesity more than black men think or care to admit. ”

    Thanks for admitting to this RwC, I’ve always felt and seen the same. Plus, there’s no real standard definition for “thick” vs “curvy” and overweight, or underweight and sickly, vs. thin. Women are just told to keep some meet on their bones, probably so low value men have less competition for them. So a lot of black women don’t know when they’re acceptable, or simply overweight. Then again, what happens when any young woman looks around and everywhere she turns, she’s not accepted, she is reminded she is less than, and there’s no real outcomes where she wins? She does exactly what individual people in her life tell her to do.

    I remember people saying Aaliyah was way to skinny, even though she was beautiful, and said herself she was a naturally petite person. I’ve heard so many black men moan about J-Hud losing weight, Tocarra Jones losing weight, and Beyonce losing weight.

    The opposite extreme is the women (often feminists, but not necessarily) who “right on!” obese black women to promote their own self image in comparison. This is why Queen Latifah is a cover model in my opinion.

    It’s crazy, but, in the U.S. black female bodies and hair have always been a matter of public debate. Hawaiians and Native Americans are also currently suffering from an extremely obese population, yet no one says its because they don’t want to get their hair wet at the gym.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms courtley:
    No, its not radical feminist but its feminist nonetheless. :) this is the argument per caitlin moran. Google her up. If i were a betting man id lay good odds that my knowledge base of feminism is easily an order of magnitidue better than yours is of the manosphere. :)

    My arguments wrt the predations of feminism and other aspects of the cognitive elite in detail over on the admittedly length jessica shairer single mommyhood thread. What you said about how welfare law was changed to basically boot the men out of the home is definitely onpoint but it goes deeper than that. Kay hymowitz discusses this in considerable detail and which ive referenced with links several times again, on the jessica shairer thread. Oh and by the way ive responded to your last comment to me over there yesterday as well so youll definitely want to check it out.

    But to be brief-my argument is that our society is being run by a cognitive elite that uses a kind of social bait and switch ideology and public policy which is deliterious to the mass of american citizenry. The cognitive elite are able to bypass these effects because they have deliberately segregated themselves from the rest of americans. Murray makes this case in his book coming apart. It behooves you to check out his work.

    Also: please pardon my typos etc as im writing from my blackberry knockoff lol. But yes, black women not only were working outside the home long before friedan came along but they were always going to school at higher rates than black men and this includes the college level. Look it up. That didnt prevent a sista school teacher from marrying a brotha bus driver or sanitation worker. You dont have that today and this is due to in large part the machinations of the cognitive elite.

    Nor am i against women having careers education businesses property or deciding when and under what circumstances they will become parents-what MY beef is, that feminists dont want men to have the same freedoms, nor do they want men to openly question the after effects of these measures on the body politic at large. The vast majority of women do indeed what hymowitz called a bait and switch-they want all the bennies of a 21st century life but still want men to act like something out of a jane austen novel, and they also want to be able to determine which “mode” is appropriate-and if you question this no matter how well informed or how well you comport yourself, youre derided as a sexist misogynist you have a small d*ck you cant get laid etc et al. I have deepseated issues with the undergirding ideology of the feminists who have permeated our world with their ideas many of whom have proven ruinous for women themselves-indeed this is something that ms walsh herself have noted.

    So that is my argument. Now holla back

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Clearly I’m in the minority as a woman who likes the “pins and needles” phase of courtship. That makes me wonder about something, and I’d like the women to weigh in.

    I’m on the fence about it, personally. I don’t like the “pins and needles” phase of courtship, for the most part. I don’t mind trying to figure out whether or not a man likes me, initially, but I don’t like that phase to last very long. I like being kept guessing for a little while. I’d rather a man take some time to get to know me, but not take an eternity, before deciding whether to commit to me or not.

    With that being said, I absolutely hate waiting for a man to contact me by phone. The anxiety that surrounds whether or not a guy will call is never pleasant for me. Some men will call/text me the day after they get my phone number, but I’ve also dealt with guys who will call/text me 6 days after getting my number. I don’t like that type of waiting or guessing.

    Ideally, I’d like a man to keep contact with me consistently, but I don’t need to know exactly what he’s thinking from the beginning.

  • J

    I saw a tv-show about infertility in guys. They made a bunch of guys with critically low sperm count drink one or two very large smoothies a day with a ton of vegetables and some fruit and within a few months most of them where fertile. A study also found that if infertile women (of fertile age) started meditating about 40-50% of them got pregnant. So stress seemed to have been critical.

    I believe that you saw a show thtat made those claims, but I don’t believe the claims. They really go counter to my experiences in infertility and to the experiences of couples I know.

  • Iggles

    J, Courtley – Glad to hear that you guys agree!

    @ Courtley:

    one thing to probably be aware of is the unusually high number of introverts who will be drawn to places like HUS simply because love and relationships are tougher for them, especially in a culture that values extroversion so much and in a sexual marketplace that really seems geared towards their wants and needs.

    +1

    Definitely, American society in general is geared toward extroversion. It’s the “norm” and most of them don’t “see” introverts due to that priviledge, so we’re misread constantly in social situations. Prime example, a shy girl is judged by her peers as “stuck up” because she doesn’t regular strike up conversation with them on a daily basis.

    (Note: This is not meant to be an indictment of extroverts in general; it’s just that when you’re in the minority you tend to notice both sides whereas the majority group generally only sees theirs — I’m a minority in a number of fronts as an black female introvert who is left handed! ;-) )

    @ Ana:

    I think that is a good explanation but then I’m a bit of an anomaly because I’m a extravert and I hated the “anxiety” stage with a fire of three thousand supernovas.

    This is interesting!

    I guess those who hate the “pins and needles” phase can’t be neatly correlated on personality types, though it seems to account for a lot.

    Hubby also won me by being reliable and showing constant interest on me and only me and that is how I like it

    Omg! Reliablity and consistency are huge turn ons for me when it comes to dating/relationships!! Maybe my venus in Capricorn has a lot to do with it (ha!), but I can’t stand flaky men! Nothing makes me lose interest quicker! So you can see, a man employing the strategy of least interest would not win any points with me. The disappointment leads to hurt feelings on me end, whether it was intentional or not.

    Thinking back, it’s how I knew my bf was good fit for me! (and vice versa) Things between us just felt “right”. His reliability and consistent communication allowed me to let down my guard and built trust in him.

  • Abbot

    “The “thick” ideal itself is probably encouraging obesity ”

    What other adjustments or accommodations are women making to arrive at the spectrum of “ideal” traits that men seek universally? Is staying off the carousel a consideration?

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts? Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you? Or do you see that initial stage as necessary but unpleasant?

    Oh yeah! Definitely, everyone’s view on “too much” is on a spectrum.

    My boyfriend and I dated for 3 weeks before we decided to be exclusive & an official couple (bf/gf). I initiated the DTR talk, and some people would say that’s too soon. Definitely some guys would have bolted. He didn’t. He was thrilled to call me his girlfriend. Whereas, online other guys say at minimum they date for 3 months before considering having a DTR talk. And I guess, there’s some girls who would have been turned off by him agreeing to commitment enthusiastically, so early on.

    *shrugs*

    It worked for us, so to each their own.

    Personally, I do think dating is a necessary step before jumping into a relationship with someone. You learn about the other person, and see if there’s any big dealbreakers/compatibility issues up front. As for the rest, you should still be looking for any dealbreakers/potential issues once you’re in the relationship phase too.

    But I think a much better example of “too much, too soon” in regards to your comment is the online dating phenomenon I call the info-dump.

    I had this happen to me before and it’s yucky! The basic idea is that a guy messages you with his whole life story. The thought behind this tactic is that they will win you over by full disclosure. There was one guy who told me about a couple of disorders he was diagnosed with, that he prematurely ejaculated, and that he had a hatred of money. Not surprisingly, I never message him back!

    It feels off because the level of disclosure and emotional intimacy between two people getting to know each other has to be around the same level.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc @ms ion:
    I want to ask you both a question in light of your comments re:”thick” black women-

    What are your views of all the flak gold medal winner gabby douglass has gotten from black women on the basis that her hair looked bad? My take on it is that the hair thing is really a cover for the fact that so many black women feel some kind of way about their weight and douglass’ performance only highlights that fact. What do you two think?

    Ms ion the reason why hawaiian women dont get a workout over their weight is because hawaii is offshore. I mean really how often do we even talk about hawaii?

    Ms rwc i hear what youre saying but black women have out and out obesity problems that no one would confuse with melissa ford thick lol. I mean theyre making dresses sized 30 now-wtf??? Black women are indeed getting fatter its a fact and its been documented as a huge health risk problem. The black womens health study has been tracking this for years among quite a few other helth studies groups aimed at black women (btw ms ion-where is the black mens health study? More proof that your arguments wrt black men are utterly ridiculous) have found the same thing. None of this can be blamed on how black men treat them or dont treat them, “society” et al-its directly attributable to the fact that black women eat too much and exercise too little-fact. No way in hell are either of you gonna tell me that there is no difference btw the cover girls on xxl or king mag (theyre the black version of the “lad magazines” for those of you reading along at home) and what you can easily see especially this time of year on any street in urban (read: black) america. Black women have a serious weight problem. They need to stop making excuses and simply deal with it.

    O.

  • Cooper

    @Iggles #295

    That’s refreshing.

  • Ion

    “Ms ion the reason why hawaiian women dont get a workout over their weight is because hawaii is offshore. I mean really how often do we even talk about hawaii?”

    This is a LOL statement. Hawaii has lots of public space to walk around, and I am sure plenty of gyms. If it has anything to do with Hawaii simply being offshore, all the Americans from other places who move to Hawaii would get obese. You totally ignored my comment about the obesity for native americans (latina women as well, we just don’t see the fat south American on T.V. the way we constantly see fat black women, its painting peoples interpretations of reality). Look around.

    When it comes to being able to eat crap American food like processed junk, sure, some people will be able to stay “skinny fat”, and win, specifically if they have an awesome satiety mechanism through nature, that allows them to stay frail and eat junk. Others are sensitive to processed junk, and sugar (a black woman and asian woman with the same diet one gets diabetes and obesity, the other doesn’t). So while one woman becomes obese, the other can’t even sit up without sleeping (a common phenomena I’ve seen on the train in NYC) has what looks like osteoporosis, and doesn’t have the energy to run around the block. But by playing the “asians/some blacks/some whites can eat carbs and be healthy, so you just need to eat less” game, we overlook what is fundamentally wrong with the food supply, and overlook choices we can CHANGE. “Eat less” — which I am sure includes lots of low calorie chemical carbs like diet drinks and ricecakes that only a small percentage of the population can lose substantial weight on — is not going to help people who are sensitive to insulin spikes from carbs. It never has.

    Black women need to be told the truth about what is wrong with the staple foods their eating, but they also need to be warned about black mens motivation in encouraging obesity i.e. “thickness” (how many are low value themselves, and have no desire to rise above that station in life, and encourage obesity in women to eliminate competition). Your point is bunk about black women choosing to just stuff their faces all day for the hell of it, it is clear that black men reward obesity in non-black women as well….

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ion
    “Women are just told to keep some meet on their bones”

    Yes. IMO, this discourages fitness, and indirectly encourages obesity. Statements like “just don’t be fat” and “keep some meat on your bones” do not inspire a regular exercise and diet regime the same way that “be fit and slim” does.

    @Abbot
    “What other adjustments or accommodations are women making to arrive at the spectrum of “ideal” traits that men seek universally? Is staying off the carousel a consideration?”

    When I was working in NC at a small college, I would hear girls puking in the bathroom stalls at least once every other day. I thought that a stubborn flu bug was going around, until someone clued me in on the local bulimia epidemic. On the other side of the coin, you have women getting dangerous toxic butt implants and doing half-hearted workout regimes which involve mostly sit-ups and very little real cardio so that they can maintain fat in some areas but selectively slim down in others. The “sexy” ideals in America nowadays, to either look like a dainty fairy or a voluptuous Coke bottle with gravity-defying fat, are encouraging women who do not naturally skew either way to be anything but healthy. Jumping off the carousel is an important step.

    @Obsidian
    “No way in hell are either of you gonna tell me that there is no difference btw the cover girls on xxl or king mag (theyre the black version of the “lad magazines” for those of you reading along at home) and what you can easily see especially this time of year on any street in urban (read: black) america.”

    Giving excuses to be overweight was not my point. In my previous post, I agreed that most women do not look like King Magazine models. They do in their minds. They use the contrast between the King girls and the Esquire girls to pat themselves on the backs for being “thick and proud.” I think we agree there.

    Here’s where we may disagree. I think the women on King Magazine covers are mostly overweight. They may be boner-inducing, but they do not look fit. When black folks start calling it for what it is, the overweight women who will never be coke-bottle shaped won’t have any delusions to fall back on. I whole-heartedly agree that it is up to each woman to choose to slim down. In order to do this, she has to abandon the thick ideal and shoot for slim and fit.

    While I do appreciate an aesthetic that embraces a spectrum that isn’t so narrowly focused around rail-thin, I really do not think that the “thick” ideal is as righteous as some make it out to be (i.e., “real” women are “thick,” the black standard of beauty is more “realistic”).

    @Obsidian
    “What are your views of all the flak gold medal winner gabby douglass has gotten from black women on the basis that her hair looked bad?”

    I think it really was about her hair, plus her skin tone. I grew up deep in the midst of the pressure for darker skinned women to compensate for their “cursed” skin tone by keeping their hair immaculate-looking (i.e., straight and shiny or perfectly plaited in complex patterns). Anyone who was caught deviating from this rule, regardless of the circumstances (i.e., high impact physical activities) was shamed and ridiculed. Many will call this traditional black hair pride. I call it pettiness.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Ion
    “I remember people saying Aaliyah was way to skinny, even though she was beautiful, and said herself she was a naturally petite person.”

    Great example. I have even heard people call Rihanna “too skinny.” When most women slim down with a rigorous exercise regime, they are more likely to be shaped like Rihanna (proportion wise) and less likely to look like Melyssa Ford.

  • J

    Game rests squarely on a foundation of possibly erroneous conclusions about life one million years ago. Evo psych is the godfather of Game, as Obsidian frequently reminds us.

    Exactly! And, where game is correct, for example, where it points out that people seem to need to qualify themselves to the opposite sex–it is merely parrotting stuff that everyone’s mama used to tell them. Occam’s Razor used to make game unnecessary; there are more economical rationales behind what makes game work.

  • Abbot

    ” Jumping off the carousel is an important step.”

    Never getting on it is better. THAT men universally will appreciate more than hip waist ratios. In their minds, the butt might look great but one thats been hit over and over by different men is not attached to a woman worthy of commitment. Wrong or right, that is just how men think and they see no reason to change.

  • J

    Clearly I’m in the minority as a woman who likes the “pins and needles” phase of courtship.

    No, it’s just that your an extrovert. This stuff, which is exciting for you, is hard work for us. It’s draining in a way that I can’t even begin to explain.

    Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts?

    I won’t work hard for male approval. Call me a”quitter,” but I find it discouraging if a man doesn’t appear to like me almost immmediately.

    Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you?

    Yes, there is “too much, too soon.” There’s a narrow band of behavior between too aloof and too overwhelming or phony.

    Now that I think about it, it’s a wonderment that I got married. What a fussy bitch I am!

  • J

    @Courtley #304

    Cosigned.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Abbot
    “Never getting on it is better. THAT men universally will appreciate more than hip waist ratios.”

    Oh, I misunderstood what you meant by carousel. I thought you were referring to buying in to sexiness ideals. What does the carousel you’re referring to have to do with physical appearance, though? Why should a woman focus on low N count *instead* of looks? Yes, men appreciate low N count, but appreciating that more than looks? I’m not sure I buy that. I think it’s more common for men to want both low N and looks, and to be more forgiving about N count (within a certain range, f course) the more attractive a woman is.

  • Ion

    “When most women slim down with a rigorous exercise regime, they are more likely to be shaped like Rihanna (proportion wise) and less likely to look like Melyssa Ford.”

    Or the caricature of butt implants that is Nicki Minaj lol. But yes, women like Melyssa Ford and Nicki have had some work done. So to hold them up as a standard for “thick” or any of those women in XXL magazine really, is like holding Pamela Anderson up as the standard for the hourglass figure.

    Recently, I mentioned to 3 guys in particular going to the gym. All three said “why? you’re curvy and that’s hot, maybe 10 lbs or 15 lbs but that’s it”. And I told them I want to get to Noami Campbell “what???? she is so skinny! She doesn’t look good to me” blah blah. 2 of these men are black and 1 is white.

    I know its hard to get to Noami Campbell, but whats wrong with having her as an inspiration?? And can’t I also look at Geena Davis as a beautiful role model because she is my height, regardless of her race? There’s always something lol..

  • Abbot

    “common for men to want both low N and looks”

    Short of going to foreign countries where it is effortless to find that combination in droves, men in the US need to be vigilant to the point of straining themselves. Its really quite sad…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Royale W. Cheese

    Oh, I misunderstood what you meant by carousel. I thought you were referring to buying in to sexiness ideals. What does the carousel you’re referring to have to do with physical appearance, though? Why should a woman focus on low N count *instead* of looks? Yes, men appreciate low N count, but appreciating that more than looks? I’m not sure I buy that. I think it’s more common for men to want both low N and looks, and to be more forgiving about N count (within a certain range, f course) the more attractive a woman is.

    Abbot turns any topic or discussion here into something about women on the carousel.

    With regards to what you said, I think you’re right. Sure, men would like to have a woman with both good looks and a lack of carousel riding, but a good chunk of men probably would overlook some carousel activity if the woman is hot enough. I’ve seen it first hand myself.

    Very “hot” women are often not without boyfriends. The men either overlook their past sexual experiences or understand that it may come with the territory.

  • Jackie

    @Courtley (305)

    Wow, Courtley, you are very insightful! I really appreciated this post!

    You mentioned being an introvert raised by an extroverted mother. I wonder, what is your perspective on the inverse of that– an extrovert being raised by introverted parents? I am ENFP on the Myers-Briggs, but was raised by some hardcore introverts (my sister and brother are introverts as well).

    I always felt a bit, constrained, I guess. Yearning to be more outgoing, yet another part wanting to fit the introverted mold. In some ways, it did me a favor as I think I would be *way* more frivolous, superficial and less focused on character; without introvert guidance tempering my ways! ;-)

    Thanks again, Courtley– very much enjoying your posts! :)

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “You may be right – I am interested to hear what other female introverts think. Whenever this topic comes up I am reminded of this line from Pride and Prejudice:

    “Poor Jane. Still, a girl likes to be crossed in love now and then. It gives her something to think of… and a sort of distinction amongst her companions.”
    ========
    Hahaha! No thread is complete without an Austenian reference. :mrgreen: (Although, you notice that quote is from Mr. Bennett, I believe, and not a woman!)

    Well, this is just the perspective of an E raised among I’s: There was a point when I quite enjoyed the drama of “pins and needles.” When I was late teens, 20, 21– it was all quite thrilling!

    And I think it was due to my immaturity at that time: When men were calling (esp. more than one), I was gratifying my ego and thinking “I’m so popular!!!” instead of looking at them as people. Flirtation seemed like an incredibly fun game.

    (Believe me, my sister called me out on this BIG TIME. And about the wrongness of being a tease.)

    After my engagement did not work out, I don’t think I could ever go back to my formerly superficial ways. Life is just too short!

    Now I think it’s kind of cruel to prolong the “pins and needles,” “will they or won’t they” stuff, and just say, I think you’re awesome and see what happens. ;-)

  • Jackie

    @Sassy, Royale
    “Abbot turns any topic or discussion here into something about women on the carousel.”
    =======
    Hahaha! So true!

    That darling Abbott has called me a “charlatan prude,” “pissy,” and a “trollyass” (?) among other such endearments. Bless his little heart! :-)

  • Jackie

    @Obsidian (316)

    Hi Obsidian!
    Well, you can’t blame an anti-capslock girl for trying. ;) I appreciate the explanation and will let you get back to jousting with the rest of the commenters. ;)

  • Abbot

    “men either overlook their past sexual experiences or understand that it may come with the territory.”

    aka torturing themselves

  • Wudang

    “Very “hot” women are often not without boyfriends. The men either overlook their past sexual experiences or understand that it may come with the territory.”

    It does often come with the territory. Very hot women far more often have boyfriends, they end their relationships sooner, they cheat more, they start having sex earlier and they have more casual sex. Their “alpha” position alows them to do more of all of the above and get a way with it with less cost.

  • SayWhaat

    Re: “pins and needles”

    Speaking as an extrovert…I dunno, maybe it’s just a function of having been in the dating scene and celibate for longer than I should have, but I never enjoyed that anxiety. It just recalls memories of reacting to my cell phone’s every vibration, awaiting a measly text 4 hours after I last heard from the guy, wondering if he’d already rejected me for not putting out, and just generally stressing the fuck out.

    I think maybe this is just one aspect where the dating game has changed from Susan’s generation. Back then, maybe girls were more inclined to wait, because the guys would let them wait. Girls of my generation don’t have that luxury of time anymore. It’s “put out or lose out”.

    I hate that game with the fire of 10,000 suns.

  • Joel

    ”It does often come with the territory. Very hot women far more often have boyfriends, they end their relationships sooner, they cheat more, they start having sex earlier and they have more casual sex. Their “alpha” position alows them to do more of all of the above and get a way with it with less cost.”

    Not really. The accusation of attractive/very attractive women being more prone to being sexually promiscuous than the average and below average women are, is nothing more than propaganda issued by average and below average women in order to make themselves appear worthy of financial and emotional investment.

    Most of the attractive and very attractive women aren’t all that sexual at all. As a young model and with many friends in the industry, I rarely ever see young models being gamed or even asked out. Most of us aim for the average-looking female because we are familiar with women’s hypergamous nature.

    A 5/6/7 will always put out instantly for a 8/9/10 whereas the 8/9/10 females’ hypergamy is so insanely high, you need to be extremely good-looking, be rich, and have very tight game for a woman who belongs to the top in terms of looks to even notice your existence.

    I suspect that the majority of the average and below average women from the Western world are definitively, massively more sexual active than most of the men in their league, and that the extremely beautiful ones are more close to virginity than any woman bar nuns.

    The women I have in my life are 6′s to 10. The 6′s occasionally have a boyfriend and a couple of hook-ups per month, but starting at 7 most of them consistently single and they don’t hook-up, either.

    For a man looking for a relationship, aim for a woman far above most women or you’re stuck with the leftovers of young men like me.

  • J

    @Anon Beta

    The child will always have my support, love and protection.

    That’s good. None of this is the child’s fault.

    I was extremely hurt by her statement. Extremely hurt – completely gutted.

    That’s very understandable. I can tell you from personal experience that infertility really taxes a relationship and there is probably a lot said that shouldn’t be said. I can only assume that your wife, due to her age, felt pretty desperate to have a child and was speaking not out of well considered feelings, but out of her own hurt and desperation. I don’t know her, but I’d bet that had she really been thinking straight, she would not have said what she said. You may feel that her desperation pushed her real feeling to the foreground, and I suppose that is possible. Nonetheless, if she has been a faithful wife to you, I would hope you can move beyond that. After all, married people unfortunately say hurtful things to each other with some frequency, and what one does is more meaningful than what one says.

    I’m not pissed off about the donor thing, since I did agree to it. The IVF treatment was horrible for her and there was no sense in making her suffer for the small chance at having our own child. And who am I to deny her a child? Even we were to separate in the future, at least she would have her child.

    It’s lovely you feel that way. We were about to start Clomid and AI with my husband’s washed and concentrated sperm when I got pregnant more or less naturally, Had that not worked donor sperm was our next option. I don’t think my husband would have wanted it.

    What I am pissed off about is that she has the gall to tell me that – and it’s like she revealed to me her true perception of me. That I’m some spineless beta loser, and I have no other options in my life but to let her do what she wants. That’s just a complete assault of my ego (whatever little of it I had), my sense of self-worth.

    Are you sure that’s her true perception of you? Or was she just that desperate to have a child? I have no idea what drew your two together, and I can see how the looks and personality gaps you perceive can make you feel that she doesn’t value you. Only you can assesss if that’s true, but I would look at her behavior, not at what she said when she was hurting. Out of my curiosity, why did you marry someone with a 6 personality who had more sexual experience than you felt comfortable with? Was it for her 9 looks? Are you responding to what said based on the looks and experience gap or based on her actual actions?

    I think it is possible for me to forgive her in time. Somehow, having the escort experience made me feel I’m now more open to forgive her. It allowed me to shed some of the resentment I had of her.

    While I’m sure your wife is happy to have the child now, I can assure you that she suffered a lot in trying to conceive it. If I were you I wouldn’t add to her suffering by letting her know you cheated, but I wouldn’t use the child as an excuse for further cheating (though I can understand how the sexual attention from a “skilled professional” made you feel better.) If you have to get out, make a clean break. Bear in mind that a court will find that this child is legally yours, no matter how you feel about it.

    No the child is not the reason I went to the escort. I’m actually over the fact of how the child was conceived. The issue for me was, here is someone who already had a lot of partner experiences before we met, and now was asking me for more experience (maybe even to have a child with another man, and then come back to me later, can you believe?). While here I am, the sucker who waited it out for the right girl, and has never known what it is like to be with another woman! I look back in my life and realized there could have been 5-6 girls that could have had a relationship with (I’m talking, clear signals). Some of them I turned down because of my insecurities, others because I was having a long-distance relationship with her for just a year and these women approached me but I ignored their advances. I could have been the guy who had some fun, but the beta sucker in me told me to be faithful. That is why I decided to go to an escort – I didn’t want to die with regret knowing I missed out on something

  • SayWhaat

    The women I have in my life are 6′s to 10. The 6′s occasionally have a boyfriend and a couple of hook-ups per month, but starting at 7 most of them consistently single and they don’t hook-up, either.

    For a man looking for a relationship, aim for a woman far above most women or you’re stuck with the leftovers of young men like me.

    That seems to be pretty consistent with Susan’s claim that the most beautiful women are left out in the cold in this SMP. Like she said, HB8s-HB10s are a bargain right now!

  • J

    Whoops. I was too quick on the draw there. Finishing up:

    I think it is possible for me to forgive her in time. Somehow, having the escort experience made me feel I’m now more open to forgive her. It allowed me to shed some of the resentment I had of her.

    Because it “evened the score” and closed the experience gap. That’s why I think this is so hard for you. Not because of what she said as much as how it affected your self-perception.

    The issue for me was, here is someone who already had a lot of partner experiences before we met, and now was asking me for more experience (maybe even to have a child with another man, and then come back to me later, can you believe?).

    So, I guess the question is, “Can you let go of that?”

    While here I am, the sucker who waited it out for the right girl, and has never known what it is like to be with another woman!

    I’m not sure that makes you a sucker.

    I look back in my life and realized there could have been 5-6 girls that could have had a relationship with (I’m talking, clear signals).

    I believe you.

    Some of them I turned down because of my insecurities, others because I was having a long-distance relationship with her for just a year and these women approached me but I ignored their advances. I could have been the guy who had some fun, but the beta sucker in me told me to be faithful. That is why I decided to go to an escort – I didn’t want to die with regret knowing I missed out on something.

    I regard fidelity as a virtue, and I don’t see those who practice it as suckers. If she had been faithful, then I think you have more than evened the score since her pervious experience is before the marriage and you presumably knew about before the marriage.

  • Sassy6519

    @ SayWhaat

    That seems to be pretty consistent with Susan’s claim that the most beautiful women are left out in the cold in this SMP. Like she said, HB8s-HB10s are a bargain right now!

    I think that Joel’s claims are true, in a way.

    I, however, really do think that there needs to be more emphasis placed on the differences between “cute”, “hot”, and “beautiful/pretty”.

    I think that “beautiful/pretty” women are often left out in the cold, in this SMP. They have high SMV (7-10), but their sexuality is not on overt display. When looking at them, you think of old world or classic beauty. The women that I consider “beautiful/pretty” are very feminine and also don’t wear their sexuality on their sleeves. They are typically not promiscuous, so they eliminate a lot of men out of their lives. They filter men like crazy, so they spend relatively more time being single.

    “Hot” women also have high SMVs (7-10), but they wear their sexuality on their sleeves. They dress and carry themselves in a way that oozes sexuality, which attracts the attention of many men. They aren’t as classically feminine as “beautiful/pretty” women, and they often don’t appear to be as harsh when filtering men. They have a large amount of men lining up to sleep with them, and also quite a large amount of men willing to offer them commitment. With more lax standards, they end up in more relationships overall, in my opinion. Those relationships may not last long at all, but they do happen.

    I think the differences may stem from how each group is perceived by men. “Hot” women may seem more warm or open overall. “Beautiful/pretty” women may be seen as cold, stuck up, or unapproachable. The differences in how they look and carry themselves signal different things to men. I can only imagine that, if I were a man, I would approach “hot” women instead of “beautiful/pretty” women. If “Hot” women seem more warm or open to being approached, I’d guess that my odds of success would be higher with “hot” women instead of “beautiful/pretty” women.

    Of the three descriptors, I would consider myself in the “beautiful/pretty” group. I’ve been told several times by men that I can appear cold sometimes, or that they have a hard time figuring out what I’m thinking.

    The “hot” women that I know are typically seen as bubbly or the lives of the party. Their personalities are more welcoming, so I’m not surprised that “hot” women appear to be cleaning up the most in today’s SMP.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      That’s a great analysis of good-looking women in the SMP. I think you’re right that they are divided by personality traits, as well as mating orientation.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts? Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you? Or do you see that initial stage as necessary but unpleasant?

    I think is more about timing than anything else. A woman that finds a guy attractive and he offers him commitment surely will get flattered. If the woman doesn’t find him attractive this will ring all sorts of alarm bells. The promise of Game is to create attraction regardless of the woman personal tastes because of certain marks that are universally liked. I’m sure this work on many women, so again this is another spectrum thing. People can recall falling fast for other people and some others falling slowly so the algorithm is really complex. Is the equivalent of the “good girl” that never had sex on the first date with anyone but does it with a particular male. Some men will believe her and feel special some others will call it “slut shield” and P&D some others might want to check it out. I’m sure if George Clooney proposed on the first date his chances of getting a NO are infinitely smaller than an average guy, YMMV.

    The idea in the black community is that “small” people do not “need” exercise.

    Flashbacks to me running on the park and getting yelled at “Do you want to lose bone mass” by the guys on DR.

    I guess those who hate the “pins and needles” phase can’t be neatly correlated on personality types, though it seems to account for a lot.

    Except that I was raised by an introverted mother and I actually prefer introverts so I do think you actually might have a point about it.

    His reliability and consistent communication allowed me to let down my guard and built trust in him.

    I recall a particular incident hubby asked me for my phone number on DR he told me. “I can’t call you tomorrow but I will call you the day after 7 pm your time.” Me being so used to the “empty words of men” didn’t expected much out of his first “little promise” well the day after 7 pm exactly he called me. I was so shocked and pleased and completely flabbergasted. I think it was the first tingle I felt for him and I allowed myself to put him on my “maybe you could fall in love with this guy” box.

    Oh yeah! Definitely, everyone’s view on “too much” is on a spectrum.

    Yeah I think that is part of the calibration thing. Some women need more DRAMA! about this than others.
    I also think that women that haven’t had a lot of “anxiety + disappointment” might find the wait fun because at the end they usually get what they want. Us ugly ducklings probably learn to associate waiting for the call with spending Saturday night alone, too many times.
    And finally there most brain reward system going on there, like the difference between gamblers and people that hate gambling. Some women get more “excited” the more likely the outcome is to be negative while some other women get such a bad feeling that once pass certain amount of time they just disconnect of the whole thing. I know I had lost interest with the flakiness almost instantly when a guy shows up. My assumption is that he has other women around and since I don’t compete for men no point on investing more time on them, YMMV.

  • Abbot

    “A 5/6/7 will always put out instantly for a 8/9/10″

    Do “instant-putter-outers” who are not lying dupers ever qualify as wife material?

    “the average and below average women from the Western world are definitively, massively more sexual active than most of the men in their league”

    That is why those women and men are from two DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT sexual cultures and men with any sense should vigilantly avoid committing to women from this group, aka most women. At time of marriage, women on average have been exposed to a far greater variety of genitalia than the men.

  • Jayne

    @Sassy 357

    I think you hit the nail on the head. There should be a difference between ‘hot’ and ‘beautiful’

  • Abbot

    “The 6′s occasionally have a boyfriend and a couple of hook-ups per month”

    That is aka sleeping around that has gotten so rampant that damage-controllers stepped in with the myth “sex positive” in order to head off the finger pointing and disgust that could easily and really ruin the future relationship prospects for these mal-parented women. How is that working out?

  • Sassy6519

    With regards to my last post, it goes without saying that a woman’s looks can often fluctuate between the three categories. “cute” or “beautiful/pretty” women can tart themselves up a bit to appear “hot”. “Hot” women can also downplay their looks or dress more conservatively to have a more “cute” or “beautiful/pretty” appearance.

    I saw this a lot on my undergrad college campus. The very same women who wore sweatpants and ponytails to classes often dressed up in short, skin tight dresses and bolder makeup whenever they went out to a bar or club.

    As another poster stated earlier, makeovers can do wonders for women.

    In a sense, it’s all about presentation. As a woman, what kind of message do you want to send to men? Do you want to appear more overtly sexual, or more demure? Do you want to signal STR cues or LTR cues? What sort of presentation are you trying to achieve?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Whats interesting to me is the fact that i actually mentioned evidence to support my claim-the black womens health study-and my interlocutors, ms rwc and ms ion-have offered nothing but excuses and victimology.

    Heres the deal: black women, as a whole and across age and ses lines, have a serious (over)weight problem. This is due to no one but black women themselves, because in the end no one is forcing any black woman to stuff her face and stay at the table. Yes, black men can and will tap that for what should now be obvious per evospych. But that doesnt mean thats what they would choose to wife up. If you want to know what kinds of women they do want, a quick trip over to king or xxl mag or bet or vh1 is all thats needed.

    Wrt ms ion in particular, everything youve said is framed in a constant neverending stream of victimology and black male hatred and it explains a lot as to your own predicament. There are umpteen different organizations initiatives (including the first ladys!) et al ostensibly out there to raise “health and awareness” among black women and yet the dress sizes keep going up. This is something that will continue to persist until black women themselves decide to do something about it. Making excuses aint gonna get it theyre fooling no one and everyone knows the deal. Im among the relative few thats more than willing to put it all on blast.

    The sheer amount of victimology from you is downright nauseating and again goes to show why you are where you are. Telling me to go have a look outside?-you didnt even know something like summer stage even existed in your own hometown and i have, hipped you to it and i dont even live in nyc! Id put my knowledge of whats going on out there in the streets ahead of yours any time of the week.

    If black women could mount an interenational effort to get a man fired last year (kanazawa) then they can get other things done too. They simply choose not to which is their right.

    They then cannot be mad when others simply want to loudly observe what they see.

    Stop making excuses. Do something.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      Heres the deal: black women, as a whole and across age and ses lines, have a serious (over)weight problem. This is due to no one but black women themselves, because in the end no one is forcing any black woman to stuff her face and stay at the table.

      I have given you considerable leeway here and allowed you to use HUS as a platform for your views, partly because there has been a group of people interested in debating with you.

      But comments like the one above, which carry a judgmental tone and do not appear to apply to any of the women here, are not only OT, they’re over the top.

      I’m getting emails complaining that you are taking over threads with “Black America” issues and I think they’re valid. Stop highjacking the threads, you have your own platform for your views. I don’t understand why someone with his own blog is arguing these issues here. Feel free to link to a post the TOF, but I won’t continue to allow it here.

  • J

    Heres the deal: black women, as a whole and across age and ses lines, have a serious (over)weight problem.

    I beg to differ, Obs. The AA women in my UMC neighborhood aren’t fat. In most respects–size, dress, manner– they are quite similar to their Asian and white neighbors. I do see some tremendous women working in nursing homes, shopping at Walmart, etc. though.

  • Wudang

    “Not really. The accusation of attractive/very attractive women being more prone to being sexually promiscuous than the average and below average women are, is nothing more than propaganda issued by average and below average women in order to make themselves appear worthy of financial and emotional investment.

    Most of the attractive and very attractive women aren’t all that sexual at all. As a young model and with many friends in the industry, I rarely ever see young models being gamed or even asked out. Most of us aim for the average-looking female because we are familiar with women’s hypergamous nature”

    Incorrect. I have linked to studies before showing that the inclination towards sex outside of relationship (sociosexuality) increases as women become more attractive, that more attractive women have a higher total number of sex partners and that they start having sex at an earlier age and that they cheat more often. Certain hormones correlated with female beauty such as estradiol also correlates with cheating, with becoming easily dissatisfied in relationships and serial monogamy which all increases the total number of partners as well.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms j:
    And i know just as many umc black women who are quite big-and the data/stats/research backs me up on this. Again: please lookup the black womens health study and see for yourself. In fact go and look up all the umpteen studies researches etc et al you name it, all devoted to black womens health issues (again: for ms ion-WHERE IS THE BLACK MALE EQUIVALENT??? Your “thesis” is bunk!), they all point to the same thing. Ashley stewart is a fashion chain that caters to white collar professional black women who are plus sized and ive known many such women who made in excess of six figures annually who shopped there. This is a problem only they can take on and people like ms ion who keep making piss poor excuses isnt gonna do anyone-black women especially-any good.

    They need to lose the weight.

    Period.

    No excuses.

    O.

  • Joel

    ”Do “instant-putter-outers” who are not lying dupers ever qualify as wife material?”

    No. They qualify as the quick P&D who don’t put any obstacles between us and sex, very much unlike women who are equal to us, the very attractive women. I know some guys who can pull the P&D on perfect 10 women but that’s highly risky for your future sexual escapades. A friend of mine did it in a faraway city thinking it wouldn’t come back to bite him in the butt and his new sexual prospect dumped him after finding out about that one P&D he did to a 10(this one was a 8.5 20 year old woman).

    Young men aren’t terribly interested in marriage or in LTR and I’m not any different, but I’d only marry a woman who was at least an 8 and younger, so if I decided to get married at the age of 35 I would expect my bride to be no older than 22.. At least I know those types are far more likely to be serious about a relationship and with far less baggage/stds/children than the average women.

    ”That is why those women and men are from two DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT sexual cultures and men with any sense should vigilantly avoid committing to women from this group, aka most women. At time of marriage, women on average have been exposed to a far greater variety of genitalia than the men.”

    Yes, beginning in elementary school with most girls wanting to be my girlfriend and chasing me to, in Junior High school getting offers for NSA sex and BJ, advancing to High School, average and attractive girls cheating on me with their boyfriends and in college LTR oriented young women wanting to dump their boyfriends for me after knowing me for a week or so.

    Average women are tainted beyond redemption, either dedicate your search for a LTR woman or a possible wife within the 8-10 beauty/hotness pool or be ready to spend time with a woman who can’t commit with you because she’s spoiled by Alpha cock.

  • Joel

    attractive girls cheating on me”

    Cheating with me.

  • Ion

    At Obsidian:

    “everything youve said is framed in a constant neverending stream of victimology”

    You must be sitting in a room filled with mirrors.

    But fair enough, you’ve made it pretty clear that your ideas on the SMV and obesity are just WRONG on several accounts, including your ridiculous claim that black UMC women are often obese. But when the argument fails, attack the opponent I guess?

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    The AA women in my UMC neighborhood aren’t fat. In most respects–size, dress, manner– they are quite similar to their Asian and white neighbors. I do see some tremendous women working in nursing homes, shopping at Walmart, etc. though.

    I’ve seen the same things. Most of the solidly middle or UMC black women I know are in great shape, myself included.

    I was curious, so I did a bit of research, and here are some studies I’ve found about the topic. It seems that, once again, SES is a much bigger and better predictor of weight than race.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1405001/

    http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.81.3.319

    http://www.eatright.org/Media/content.aspx?id=6442466887

    http://journalism.nyu.edu/publishing/archives/race_class/othergirlsstuff.html

    http://health-equity.pitt.edu/3623/

    http://www.forumonpublicpolicy.com/archivespring08/gearhart.pdf

    God, I love research.

  • Ion

    Obsidian:

    “WHERE IS THE BLACK MALE EQUIVALENT???”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/04/obesity-african-american-black-men_n_1126329.html

    Just one example. Now will you please stop race-trolling this thread and hurling out insults?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms j:
    Since you “cosinged” ms courtleys comment directed to me please let me ask exactly what are you agreeing with? Ive argued that certain women have fared markedly worse in our time now, because of the machinations of the white umc feminist class among other things. One of the things that went by the wayside here was the shotgun wedding. Ive also pointed out to ms courtley that black women and others-including poorer white women-always have worked outside the home, and that black women have always had a higher rate of formal education than black men so the canard about feminists wanting education/work was just that-a canard. Of course other elements of the cognitive elite have destroyed american cities of which black america is a part, by offshoring jobs/bringing in illegal and even legal immigrants and we see yet again this elite pulling one over everyones eyes with the likes of cathy and bezos doing their thing and neither one of them actually doing something to address the economic situation, but thats another topic.

    Also: your comment regarding game is curious. I must ask: have you read any books on the topic? I have and would argue that if indeed such a thing was “common” game as we know it would not exist. Moreover i see nothing wrong with the idea of following a specific “format” for game-ive done it and can vouchsafe for its efficacy. I know such things rub ladies the wrong way but all this is really quite simple and easy to learn thanks to the researches and actions of mystery and others. There is nothing wrong with this, “canned routines” can and do work again ive field tested many of them myself with high rates of effectiveness.

    A NOTE TO MR. ANONYMOUS BETA:
    Ive been reading along your situation and while you didnt ask me im gonna just put it out there: you need to divorce the wife and move on with your life. Youre able to get some relief from legalized prostitution which we dont have here in the states due in large part to the hypocritical feminist lobby so be glad you have what you have and are not over here.

    You need to get it in your head that women by and large will not care about your situation or past and resolve to move on with your life, taking full responsibility for the actions you took in it. If you had the abilit to put yourself there you have the ability to get yourself out of it too.

    Once youve gotten out from that toxic situation thats slowly killing you, you can then make some changes for the better. Get yourself these books:
    Pimp
    Mystery method
    The art of seduction
    The game

    And lookup my blog. You need game and given that youre a smart sensitive guy you should be able to do well if you get to it. But first yea, the marriage is a wash bro. Time to cut your losses and start fresh.

    The hoes will help for now but what you want to do is learn how to do that without paying for it.

    Good luck my brother.

    Now get to work!

    O.

  • Abbot

    “a woman who can’t commit with you because she’s spoiled by Alpha cock.”

    Even if such a woman could dupe a man into commitment, is she [and her vast click of fellow sluts] aware of her self-imposed acquired commitment deficiency syndrome aka ACDS?

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms ion:
    Lol, but NO-huff po doesnt count.

    There is a multi year longitudinal study, known as the black womens health study, that deals with a whole range of black womens health issues. There IS no black male equivalent. This directly goes to your delusional claims that society caters to black men. Its foolish and downright silly. I am glad you have slowed that down.

    Stop making excuses for black women having severe obesity problems. Help your sisters instead with how to slim down. Do something for once get out of the house and actually meet people. Nyc has a population in excess of eight million people. No excuses.

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms ion:
    Just looked at the huffpo article you posted. Heres the problem(s) with it:

    1. It deals with a slice of the black male community mainly entertainers and pro atheletes

    2. The same article states that more black women are obese than are black men

    3. It still doesnt address the fact that there is no black male equivalent to the black womens health study, there is no obama white house initiative to study black mens health issues et al.

    I live in philly and lived in nyc and can tell anyone here that there are easily two to three times as many obese black women as black men. Only someone who sits in the house all day because theyre to scared to go outside would attempt to argue otherwise. In that case delusion takes over.

    Smh…

    O.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “You can either get some casual experience under your belt (heh) or focus on one girl you like. I will get flamed for this, no doubt, but I personally would recommend the former. Just log some time in the sack. If you don’t want to do that, then target one person, but you need to escalate from the start. Kiss the first night, heavy makeout the second. Push the limits until she says Stop. And if you get an LJBF, drive on without looking back.”

    No flames, 100% correct. Men must lose their virginity as soon as possible.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “Whats interesting to me is the fact that i actually mentioned evidence to support my claim-the black womens health study-and my interlocutors, ms rwc and ms ion-have offered nothing but excuses and victimology.”

    Black men are complicit in demotivating diet and exercise. One important step is to ignore what black men say they want, and to stop thinking that being slim is only for white girls.

    “If you want to know what kinds of women they do want, a quick trip over to king or xxl mag or bet or vh1 is all thats needed.”

    …case in point. I’d like to encourage you to pick better fitness role models for black women. Most of those “models” are overweight. Getting all black women on board with losing weight will require us to kill the thick ideal. Big soft curves require fat. Losing weight to get fit requires losing fat.

  • Iggles

    @ Cooper:

    @Iggles #295

    That’s refreshing.

    Thanks! IMO, you should go after an introverted girl and you’ll find a likeminded partner.

    @ SayWhaat:

    I hate that game with the fire of 10,000 suns.

    :lol:

    I’m totally with ya! I never found waiting for hours for text to be fun.

  • Iggles

    @ O:

    Only someone who sits in the house all day because theyre to scared to go outside would attempt to argue otherwise. In that case delusion takes over.

    O, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you disagree with Ion. There’s no need to insult her because you have differing opinion. That personal barb is more than a little childish.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Nope. Black men like what they/we like and it will not change. Period. If anyone should have learned this by now black women should have.

    Second: what we need to encourage is black women backing away from the table. There is a world of a difference btw the size 30 dresses places like ashley stewart and rainbow sells and that mellissa for and olivia olovely look like and thats what black men prefer no matter who dont like it black men dont know and dont care and it will not stop. Size 30 dresses has nothing to do with this. Black women must learn to take personal agency for their lives. We are not living in a perpetual/virtual alice walker movie. They have to stop thinking of themselves as eternal victims. Not only are black men passed tired of this, but so too are other americans which can and does include a whole heck of a lot of white americans. Black women have reaped the hands downs bennies of both the civil rights and womens rights movements-its time for them as a group to grow up.

    As for your own situation: my youngest sister is the same dress size as you and was a high fashion model; in fact shes in the same cohort agewise as you and shes quite shapely. Black men like the curves which means yea hips and booty and thighs BUT NO GUT. No, all black women arent built like that-just like all black men arent built to look like idris elba or boris kodjoe. But brothas keep it moving and keep living and get on with it. The time has come actually its way past due that sistas did the same. Again they are not fooling anybody everyone knows the deal. And this latest flap with gabby douglas only goes to prove the point yet again: who are they gonna blame now? How did black men have anything to do with that? Or “white supremacy”? Or the food industry? Or global warming? I mean, whats it gonna take for black women to take control of their own lives???

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @J, @Obsidian

    O: “In fact go and look up all the umpteen studies researches etc et al you name it, all devoted to black womens health issues (again: for ms ion-WHERE IS THE BLACK MALE EQUIVALENT??? Your “thesis” is bunk!),”

    Here’s an interesting study on perceptions of healthy weight and self image for African-American men. The conclusion is that overweight men have a false perception of healthy body weight for men.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16315380

  • Ion

    RwC:

    “Black men are complicit in demotivating diet and exercise. One important step is to ignore what black men say they want, and to stop thinking that being slim is only for white girls.”

    Exactly.

    Also, I don’t know if those models in XXL and King magazine are overweight for the most part. They probably just need to ditch the butt/boob implant freakshow. Many of them are 5′-5’7 and have a waist around 20-28 inches (Nicki Minaj for example, who is actually extremely tiny in person). I’m willing to bet without implants, they look closer to Beyonce or Rihanna.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “I mean, whats it gonna take for black women to take control of their own lives???”

    Ignoring the black men who ogle King and VH1, ignoring te friends and family who tell us we need to put meat on our bones, and looking to Rihanna, Naomi, and Gabby for inspiration so we can set the fitness bar higher and go for the gold.

  • SayWhaat

    Young men aren’t terribly interested in marriage or in LTR and I’m not any different, but I’d only marry a woman who was at least an 8 and younger, so if I decided to get married at the age of 35 I would expect my bride to be no older than 22..

    Just wanted to highlight this because it’s the attitude of one of my co-workers as well. He’s a good-looking guy, average to above-average intelligence (frankly I think he’s coasted on his looks a little more than he should have), but he has astutely recognized that 1) college-educated women will be facing a dearth of college-educated men, 2) he can date a woman who is 7 years younger than he is once he’s ready to settle down, and 3) he’s gonna have a LOT of fun in law school with women pursuing their MRS degrees.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    Lol, black women are looking to gabby alright-theyre looking to tear her down! Thanks for giving yet more proof to the bitter, brutal fact that:

    The biggest enemy facing black women, are black women themselves.

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms rwc:
    The article/study you posted again does not answer my question; listen carefully:

    There is something known as the black womens health study which as existed since 1995. Its an ongoing research initiative that studies all aspects of black womens health.

    There is no such analog for black men. Not black men who attend uni. Not black men who attended ONE hbcu. Not black men who were rappers or football players. There is no ongoing comprehensive study that focuses on the health of black men.

    None.

    This is a crucial point to blunt ms ions outrageous remarks about how society caters so much to black men while at the same time does so much to undermine black women. If that were true we would see the reverse not just only on this measure but a variety of other fronts. To date she has not offered one shred of proof to back up her ridiculous assertions. All ive done is offered evidence and sources.

    Again: there is no comparison to be made btw a dress size 30 and melissa ford. Black women do this to themselves because of their own issues no one elses and only they can do something about. This is a big area of health concern (so is the hair too-the black womens health study found a link between uterine fibroid tumors and hair relaxers-ironic given all the gabby douglas mess!) that stands apart from aesthetic concerns. Black women have more than enough tools. No, i dont think black men can or should do anything about this. This is something black women themselves simply have to take on.

    But i do agree with you on one thing: most black women walking around are NOT rihanna or beyonce. Even if they go down to their size.

    O.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian

    Here are some initiatives and sites that I support and that you may want to support, too. If an overweight woman ever uses XXL, King, or VH1 as an excuse to remain heavy, which they often do, tell them to check out these sites.

    Black Girls Run
    http://www.blackgirlsrun.com/

    Black Women Do Workout
    http://blackwomendoworkout.com/

    The “For Skinny Black Women” blog
    http://skinnyblackbabe.tumblr.com/
    which includes inspirational non-XXL proportioned photos of fit, thin black women

    Thanks in advance for becoming part of the solution.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Obsidian
    “This is a crucial point to blunt ms ions outrageous remarks about how society caters so much to black men while at the same time does so much to undermine black women. ”

    I apologize for misinterpreting the debate. I thought you were suggesting to J that black men do not have an obesity or weight misperception problem. If this was not the case, then never mind.

  • Kirk

    “BETA MALE? ASK ME OUT ON A DATE.”

    Try it, seriously. It might work, people wear t-shirts with all kinds of weird statements.”

    I saw a chick wearing a “I love my alpha men” t-shirt the other day.

    @Meer
    Can you please link me to a pic of a guy with narrow shoulders and wide hips (the kind of male body that women supposedly loathe). I want to make sure that I don’t fit that description!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I saw a chick wearing a “I love my alpha men” t-shirt the other day.

      Weird, I think these tees refer to Greek organizations.

      si

      al

      de

  • Anonymous Beta

    Dear J:

    First, thanks for talking to me about this. At least you know what it feels like having been through the stresses of infertility.

    That’s very understandable. I can tell you from personal experience that infertility really taxes a relationship and there is probably a lot said that shouldn’t be said. I can only assume that your wife, due to her age, felt pretty desperate to have a child and was speaking not out of well considered feelings, but out of her own hurt and desperation. I don’t know her, but I’d bet that had she really been thinking straight, she would not have said what she said. You may feel that her desperation pushed her real feeling to the foreground, and I suppose that is possible. Nonetheless, if she has been a faithful wife to you, I would hope you can move beyond that. After all, married people unfortunately say hurtful things to each other with some frequency, and what one does is more meaningful than what one says.
    I believe she has been faithful to me. One never knows for sure (look at me – I ended up doing it), but I have no evidence to the contrary. I know other men have tried to get her attention through flirting, although no serious pursuits that I know of. It’s true marriages go through ups and downs. 15 years together has been 80% up, and 20% down. A year ago I would have told you 90% up, 10% down. Actions do speak louder than words, but sometimes words can really cut deep. Maybe had I been more Alpha and secure in myself, I would have shrugged off her
    It’s lovely you feel that way. We were about to start Clomid and AI with my husband’s washed and concentrated sperm when I got pregnant more or less naturally, Had that not worked donor sperm was our next option. I don’t think my husband would have wanted it.
    To be honest, like most men, I resisted at first (in my mind, I still had a chance), but then saw her spiral down. The depression she had from the baby problem combined with the Clomid really sent her into an unstable mental state. Crying everyday for hours , rages, and fits. She was constantly looking for reasons to yell at me and berate me. If I left a sock to dry and it touched another laundry item, all hell would break loose. I was walking on egg shells for 6 months. She even at one point said my level income was disappointing (she had a job at the time) – maybe because of the costs of IVF treatment. At least she didn’t say my penis was small. I tell you – if you want to tear down a man just tell him three things: he sucks in bed, his penis is small, and his income sucks.
    Are you sure that’s her true perception of you? Or was she just that desperate to have a child? I have no idea what drew your two together, and I can see how the looks and personality gaps you perceive can make you feel that she doesn’t value you. Only you can assesss if that’s true, but I would look at her behavior, not at what she said when she was hurting. Out of my curiosity, why did you marry someone with a 6 personality who had more sexual experience than you felt comfortable with? Was it for her 9 looks? Are you responding to what said based on the looks and experience gap or based on her actual actions?
    What drew us together was my personality. The funny thing is that she approached me. Other than seeing her in my class, I didn’t give it much thought. She asked me out. I actually turned her down, then agreed after her insisting. You can’t get any more beta than that. Most people were stunned I had landed such a beauty.
    Maybe I’m too harsh, grading her just on her more recent bad behaviour, so 7 or 8/10 in personality might be more fair when you look at a span of 15 years. I think she sometimes lacks EQ, and doesn’t know when she can be overbearing. I knew what I was getting into with her – so I cannot blame her for her past. I accepted it. What brought up the experience disparity was this crazy episode. Her actions never followed what she said to me, but knowing with her beauty it would be easy for her to follow up on it if she wished made me feel threatened.
    Because it “evened the score” and closed the experience gap. That’s why I think this is so hard for you. Not because of what she said as much as how it affected your self-perception.
    Well, my self-perception has been pretty low for as long as I can remember. I’ve had it bashed into me by others that I’m no Alpha, and not even that desirable as a beta. When several people tell you they don’t understand how you are matched up with a beautiful woman, it can get under your skin after awhile and you start to believe it.
    So, I guess the question is, “Can you let go of that?”
    I can let go, and I look forward to having a healthy relationship. Things now are good again – she is very happy and that makes me happy. But if I ever hear her talk like that again, I will be walking out the door. Actions are more important, but verbal abuse also has its limits. And as much as somebody can be depressed/wacked out on medication doesn’t give them the right to treat me like that.
    While my confidence has always been weak, I have come to realize I don’t need to fear a life without her. To my surprise, I was hit on by a young colleague of 23 (I rebuffed her, even during this time when I was vulnerable to any positive female attention – my colleagues reminded her that I was already married). And just recently my income doubled after getting a promotion. I’m not saying I will leave her to spite her – I love her and want to continue what has been a relatively successful relationship. But I have options, whereas I used to think she held all the cards.
    I regard fidelity as a virtue, and I don’t see those who practice it as suckers. If she had been faithful, then I think you have more than evened the score since her pervious experience is before the marriage and you presumably knew about before the marriage.
    Fidelity is a virtue, but not acknowledging your partner’s fidelity can leave them feeling like a sucker. Especially if there is an imbalance in experience. I agree with you I should judge someone by their actions. But to threaten infidelity as a form of blackmail to get what you want (in this case a child), is not right.

  • Ion

    “This is a crucial point to blunt ms ions outrageous remarks about how society caters so much to black men while at the same time does so much to undermine black women.”

    I never said society caters to black men, I said the media has helped boost the SMV for average, and nonperforming black men just as much as successful and above average black men. I have provided substantial proof of this fact, and I’m not getting into that again. It’s already quite draining to scroll down and see there’s a new comment from you, and you just know its going to be filled with tantrums about nothing relevant.

    At this point, I am not sure if you’re intentionally being nasty to hide that you have no argument, or if you’re off your meds. But I hope that you will kick it down a notch and stop dragging my name into it.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Susan
    Does the rule about the male not qualifying the female not apply to introverts? Is there no such thing as “too much, too soon” for you? Or do you see that initial stage as necessary but unpleasant?

    “Necessary but unpleasant” totally sums it up for me–and I do think it’s because I’m an introvert. Whether it’s a new friendship or a new teacher-student relationship, I CAN’T WAIT to get out of the early stage. (The first day of school was always the worst for me. Imagine meeting 200 new people at the same time! And knowing that you have to learn to like them!) But of course, the only way out of this stage . . . is through it. Hahahaha! It’s unpleasant, but I always live. ;)

  • Ian

    Wife: A little taller, by 3-4 inches. Art/Design/Dance person. 9/10 looks scale (body like a super model, not kidding you). Personality 6/10 (she’s a bit of a difficult/bossy person). Sexual partner count: 7 (woman’s number mind you)

    Restated and trimmed, the lesson here is that acting beta can throw a supermodel into a depression if she can’t have your baby.

    On topic, I once had a favorite girlfriend leave me for an ex who came back to her, sobbing, that nobody else wanted to sleep with him. A contemptible beta pull, but, ultimately a successful one. Last I heard, they were engaged.

    In my opinion, the power dynamic in a relationship is something like an employee/employer relationship. Employeees get a smaller piece of the pie than bosses, but there are rewards for their services.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian

      On topic, I once had a favorite girlfriend leave me for an ex who came back to her, sobbing, that nobody else wanted to sleep with him… Last I heard, they were engaged.

      What’s the opposite of preselection? Postselection? That’s bizarre.

  • Kathy

    “I can let go, and I look forward to having a healthy relationship. Things now are good again – she is very happy and that makes me happy. But if I ever hear her talk like that again, I will be walking out the door. Actions are more important, but verbal abuse also has its limits”

    Anonymous Beta.. You are a good, kind and loving man.

    It is very sad that your wife said those terrible things to you. I can only imagine the pain and hurt that you must have felt.
    Your wife obviously loves you, and knows what a great guy she has married, because she is still with you and wants no other man.

    Sometimes as J says, we do say hurtful things to the one that we love. I hope now that you and your wife have a baby that your relationship continues to get better and better.

    I too know a bit about infertility and how it can put extreme pressure on a marriage.

    When my first husband found out that he was infertile(he had dearly wanted a child when we first married) it affected him very badly, as you would expect.

    Nothing I could say or do would cheer him. He started drinking, and was inconsolable. It broke my heart, because I dearly loved him.

    He would get drunk and tell me to go and find someone who could give me a child. Kept telling me to leave him. That he was no good for me.. I was shocked and bewildered..

    I wouldn’t go because I loved him. I was prepared to accept a life without children because I loved him so. Perhaps it was easier for me because I was not that maternal. And even though I was extremely upset that we would not be able to have children, I accepted that fact, because I loved HIM!

    Ah, but it was not meant to be. The two of us.

    Sometime later he cheated on me with an older woman who already had three kids. That was the end of our marriage, there and then. He had basically succeeded in driving me away in the end.

    I was utterly devastated! Could not believe it. We were both virgins when we married . At 19 I was probably very naive.

    I was angry too. Very angry. I had been devoted to him. Supported him. Loved him. It just wasn’t enough for him.

    Years later, I came to understand more, just how much pain and torment that he must have experienced as a result of being infertile. Feeling less of a man.. Though he never was to me. His infertility never changed my feelings of love for him.

    But for him I(being young and fertile) was a constant reminder of his infertility. And sadly, it was something that he could not come to terms with.

  • OffTheCuff

    AB, get the hell out. She doesn’t love you. I’m not even sure she even likes you. Do it before she gets pregnant.

  • J

    First, thanks for talking to me about this. At least you know what it feels like having been through the stresses of infertility.

    I’m happy to help, Anon Beta. It gives some meaning to what I went through.

    Actions do speak louder than words, but sometimes words can really cut deep. Maybe had I been more Alpha and secure in myself, I would have shrugged off her.

    Words can hurt a lot, and unfortunately, once they are out of your mouth, you can’t unsay them. Perhaps her words would have been easier to deal with had you not had your own disappointment to deal with as well.

    To be honest, like most men, I resisted at first (in my mind, I still had a chance), but then saw her spiral down.

    It was good of you to respond to her pain as you did. I know that it was a hard decision to give up your chance.

    The depression she had from the baby problem combined with the Clomid really sent her into an unstable mental state. Crying everyday for hours , rages, and fits.

    I thank God I never had to take Clomid. I was living my life in two week increments. Wait to ovulate, have mecahnical sex, pray not to mentruate, bleed cry, rinse, repeat. That was crazy enough for me. The effects of the hormone imbalance caused by the Clomid on top of an already painful situation would have been unbearable.

    She was constantly looking for reasons to yell at me and berate me. If I left a sock to dry and it touched another laundry item, all hell would break loose. I was walking on egg shells for 6 months.

    My husband probably felt the same about me. I was constantly walking on eggsheels myself for fear of a miscarriage. (I had several.)

    She even at one point said my level income was disappointing (she had a job at the time) – maybe because of the costs of IVF treatment.

    Obviously because of the cost of the IVF!

    I think she sometimes lacks EQ, and doesn’t know when she can be overbearing.

    Often really beautiful people have no idea of their faults. No one ever calls them on it, so they don’t develop in the same way average people do.

    Her actions never followed what she said to me, but knowing with her beauty it would be easy for her to follow up on it if she wished made me feel threatened.

    Actually, her beauty has little to do with that. Most women can find a sex partner with some ease.

    When several people tell you they don’t understand how you are matched up with a beautiful woman, it can get under your skin after awhile and you start to believe it.

    I’ve read that the happiest marriages are between beautiful women and rich men. That way everyone feels that they are getting something of value and is appropriately grateful. Nonetheless, she first approached you, pursued you despite your apparent lack of interest and then married you. She remained faithful to you despite the negative impact of your infertility problem on her life. I would assume that she values you.

    I can let go, and I look forward to having a healthy relationship.

    I’m glad.

    But if I ever hear her talk like that again, I will be walking out the door.

    Well, no one wants to feel like a supplicant in their marriage.

    Actions are more important, but verbal abuse also has its limits. And as much as somebody can be depressed/wacked out on medication doesn’t give them the right to treat me like that.

    I wouldn’t say that she had the right, but I do find her actions understandable. Likewise, I can’t justify your cheating, though I do find it understandable as well. And, at least you didn’t get involved with the “non-professional” women who approached you. It’s never a good idea to try to solve the problems of two people by pulling a third person to complicate matters and possible hurt as well.

    While my confidence has always been weak, I have come to realize I don’t need to fear a life without her. . . But I have options, whereas I used to think she held all the cards.

    And that’s good. No one should be at their spouse’s mercy.

    Fidelity is a virtue, but not acknowledging your partner’s fidelity can leave them feeling like a sucker. . . But to threaten infidelity as a form of blackmail to get what you want (in this case a child), is not right.

    If she did that unintentionally and the problem has resolved, then I think you can move on. If it continues, then you have issues. Your infidelity, while also wrong, does seem to have had some healing value for you. I hope that you can drop that behavior now and focus on your wife, child and marriage and that she can also move on from the pain that made her strike out so nastily at you. I wish you all the best.

    J

  • J

    Restated and trimmed, the lesson here is that acting beta can throw a supermodel into a depression if she can’t have your baby.

    You think his acting alpha would have made the problem less painful? Really?

  • Mike C

    Just wanted to highlight this because it’s the attitude of one of my co-workers as well. He’s a good-looking guy, average to above-average intelligence (frankly I think he’s coasted on his looks a little more than he should have), ***but he has astutely recognized*** that 1) college-educated women will be facing a dearth of college-educated men, 2) he can date a woman who is 7 years younger than he is once he’s ready to settle down, and 3) he’s gonna have a LOT of fun in law school with women pursuing their MRS degrees.

    Well….I think more and more guys are starting to recognize their value as LTR/marriage prospects especially if they have their “shit together” so to speak. Judging from various comments here and there, it is clear that *some* women find that disconcerting.

  • Mike C

    Anonymous Beta,

    I am going to second the notion that you head over and check out Athol Kay’s website. I think with the situation you’ve described, you are really in the quintessential situation of a guy who needs to run the MAP.

    http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/the-map/

    You need a new perspective from which to decide what your optimal course of action is. As far as specific decisions, I think it goes without saying that you shouldn’t be taking advice from anyone online who may bring their own biases and agendas to any analysis of your particular situation.

    Good luck.

    Ed: Comment edited, nice try.

  • Wudang

    Anonymous Beta, the no more mister nice guy forum is also good.

  • Ian

    You think his acting alpha would have made the problem less painful? Really?

    I avoided the self-pity narrative; merde happens. Facts to behold, an anonymous beta is in the position of having been the primary mate of a 9/10 with a supermodel physique for an extended period of time – the man she has chosen to raise a family with, despite, or even because of, the betaness. Barring one mechanical hiccup, beta mixes genomes with knockout, and his ancestors do a happy-dance.

    Precious metals and mountain-tops are, among other things, heavy and windy. Beta-ness is, among other things, a viable mating strategy.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I dont know about anyone else but im having serious problems with the reaction to mr anon betas predicament. Ill not comment one way or another on his child situation etc. My thing is this:

    He has been subject to horrific emotional abuse at the hands of his spouse, fullstop. Nor has this been a one off occurance; indeed its been a recurring issue. If the shoe were on the other foot it would be hard to see the ladies here arguing that the abused wife needs to “stick it out”; indeed if anything by all accounts both here and elsewhere quite the reverse. Why then they go this route now is quite interesting to behold indeed.

    He needs to dump the wife pronto. She is toxic to him. Nothing good can come from continued association. Again i have no comment as to the child situation. He can and should figure out how he wishes to proceed on that matter himself. But emotional abuse, or any other kind of abuse, is a no-no – and if weve learned anything from his case, its that women certainly do not have the lock on victim status in domestic situations. Indeed studies here in the states clearly show that the female spouse can be just as abusive and aggressive as any male spouse-although such hatefacts tend to quickly disappear down the memory hole, for purely ideological and politically correct reasons.

    To mr anon beta:
    Lose the dead weight
    Get some self respect
    Get some game
    And get a new life

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms iggles:
    Please correct if im wrong, but did i hear you right when you said that you have venus in capricorn? If so, we have something in common! :) since most astrological texts utterly suck-especially when it comes to a placement like venus in capricorn-as per usual i took it upon myself to ferret out its true meaning and purpose. Here it is:

    Venus in capricorn needs to think *strategically* about love/romance/sexual matters. So, things like a hooking up smart, or a seduction community, are perfect “fixes” for a venus in capricorn native, because these are deliberate, thoughtful approaches that venus in capricorn truly adores.

    I remember years ago, sitting at my kitchen table with a legal pad, calculator and some papers detailing the citys census numbers and a map of philly. From this i had worked out the number of available black women of childbearing age who signified they were single; i then did same with numbers of available black men. I found that there were notably more black women than black men-easily a football stadium more-and made my plans accordingly. After a highly efficient interview screening process, i got the ladies of my choice with a month. Yes we venus in capricorn folk like want and demand realworld results. :)

    Much more can be determined about your venus in capricorn by its house placement, aspects to other planets and of course where saturn is in your chart; but the above gives you an idea of how it goes down.

    Oh, and steve harvey has venus in capricorn too. :)

    O.

  • Kathy

    Umm, Obs! Did you miss this from Anonymous beta?

    “I can let go, and I look forward to having a healthy relationship. Things now are good again – she is very happy and that makes me happy.”

    It’s not for you or me or anyone else to tell Anonymous beta that he should dump his wife, when he says things are good again and that he is looking forward to having a healthy relationship… Sheesh!

    I think Mike’s suggestion about running the MAP is a good one, and should be extremely helpful to Anonymous beta, in keeping his wife on the straight and narrow. ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    I addressed a post to you, and it’s finally out of moderation. Feel free to check it out. It’s comment #370.

    It has a lot of links that you might like to check out.

    @ Royale, Ion, and Iggles

    You guys should check out that comment as well. There are many tasty links to be had.

  • Abbot

    “more and more guys are starting to recognize their value as LTR/marriage prospects”

    What they actually recognize is the same behavioral or stimulus-response patterns among women who are seeking life mates and once a man learns how to type, well, he can work any keyboard.

    “it is clear that *some* women find that disconcerting.”

    Women HATE that others can toy with their emotions [aka beating them at their own game] ESPECIALLY if those others are the men they want. Among certain types of women in specific locations it is beyond clear that men’s rapidly increasing discovery of their options in the world is very disconcerting. Women are frustrated because they cannot get men under control when it comes to the socio-sexual realm. Feminists have just about thrown in the towel.

  • Ion

    @ Sassy 370, thank you SO MUCH for providing those links! I am reading them with morning coffee. And you’re right, research is awesome.

    @ RwC, you forgot the best one! http://www.blackgirlsguidetoweightloss.com I love her (look at that pic of where she came from), because she also discusses the psychological reasons for obesity in black neighborhoods and debunks myths about obesity in black culture (it has really only been a phenomenon since things like Crisco were made) here http://blackgirlsguidetoweightloss.com/debunking-the-myths/neither-soul-food-nor-slave-food-made-you-fat/. I think her blog is informative and inspirational for anyone to read.

  • JP

    “He can and should figure out how he wishes to proceed on that matter himself. But emotional abuse, or any other kind of abuse, is a no-no – and if weve learned anything from his case, its that women certainly do not have the lock on victim status in domestic situations. ”

    From my time in abuse-world, meaning the Legal Aid side of abuse-world, I figured out this a long time ago.

    There are some rather bizarre people out there, relationship-wise.

    However, the worst abuse situations I have seen have been from men. Meaning the “left for dead on the stairs with a broken bones” kind of abuse. This is a result of the fact that men are stronger.

  • Mike C

    I preach having a strategy for achieving your objectives. If you want to marry a good man and have a family, avoiding casual sex is a good strategy. I know one young woman from my focus group who has no intention of marrying or having children, at least that’s what she says. She has sex whenever the mood strikes her -she’s got sort of a man harem. She is happy -apparently she is one of those rare women who “has sex like a man.” I do not tell her to stop because when I ask, “How’s that workin’ for ya?” she says, “Great!”

    Interestingly, for an at least decently attractive woman who is wired this way, the current SMP is literally a paradise. You couldn’t ask for a better setup.

    There is a disconnect though in you apparently having no problem pursuing her desired objectives, and another comment now lumping players in with cads (I accept your definition of using deception as the differentiating factor) as threats to civilization. If it is OK for a woman to ride the cock carousel to her heart’s content (and I really have no issue with that at all) then it is also OK for a guy to try and bed as many women as he wants and they both can be “winners” in terms of pursuing “strategies that achieve their objectives”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is a disconnect though in you apparently having no problem pursuing her desired objectives, and another comment now lumping players in with cads (I accept your definition of using deception as the differentiating factor) as threats to civilization. If it is OK for a woman to ride the cock carousel to her heart’s content (and I really have no issue with that at all) then it is also OK for a guy to try and bed as many women as he wants and they both can be “winners” in terms of pursuing “strategies that achieve their objectives”.

      When my kids were growing up I had these two terms I used. PMOS and UMOS. A PMOS is a “productive member of society.” I even had a t-shirt made with PMOS on it for my son one time. This is the greatest indication of character, IMO. It was and is simply unthinkable that my children might grow up to be lazy, selfish and unproductive. They must contribute to the functioning of a healthy society, full stop.

      I do not disagree with anything you have said. Clearly, I have no problem with Jason or Zach from a moral standpoint, although both have embraced a player lifestyle. They’re not cheating, not lying to anyone, and not pretending to be committed when they’re not. They are both highly productive individuals. In the same way, I have no problem with a female who is a PMOS and chooses to ride the carousel. Even with Jaclyn Friedman, my objection was not a moral one, but the fact that she was proselytizing a dangerous and damaging practice of seeking sex partners on Craigslist, as well as asking women to celebrate sluthood.

      What I do have a problem with is free loaders, shiftless, lazy losers who define “productive” according to how frequently they get laid. That holds for both sexes. If you’re a UMOS, then you’re a parasite, and if you want to write about shitting your pants while hooking up, don’t expect anything but full blown revulsion from me.

      I’m an equal opportunity shamer when it comes to UMOSs, and when they have the audacity to attempt to persuade others to their way of life, I’ll speak out if they come to my attention.

  • SayWhaat

    Well….I think more and more guys are starting to recognize their value as LTR/marriage prospects especially if they have their “shit together” so to speak. Judging from various comments here and there, it is clear that *some* women find that disconcerting.

    I don’t see how that would be disconcerting. The only disconcerting aspect I find about it is that this guy in particular is probably aiming to intentionally string along a bunch of girls, only to settle down with a much younger girl. If he really means it, I foresee a lot of intentional heartbreak. I find that unethical. I have no problem if he wants to go for girls who are already 7 years younger than he is (though that might be a bit creepy, at our age).

    And of course, that just reinforces the strategy among girls of my age to date >5 years older.

  • SayWhaat

    Heh, some guy needs counseling and as expected, the MRAssholes steer him towards P&D blogs.

  • SayWhaat

    Though I endorse Athol Kay. ;)

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    I for one am most pleased that ms sassy has posted up the links! I wonder how they comport with the black womens health study-given her self-professed love for research i am sure she is familiar with it?

    I am sorry to inform her and the other “not me” sista ladies of the forum of the fact that yes, the sistas weight problem is one that is no respector of ses. Again, per the black womens health study-itself something that was borne of getting its study subjects from americas top colleges and universities (read: middle-upper middle class black women), the numbers and data is clear: black women, in aggregate, do indeed have a weight problem. That one can rattle off a number of one-off, disjointed links, along with seeing a half dozen anecdotal women like oneself does not dunk the black womens health study.

    Ashley stewart is a national chain of stores that markets apparel to professional black women. Shaniqua down the way aint up in ashley stewart. Rainbow, yea. Ahsley stewart? No.

    If ms sassy or any of the other “not me” sistas really want to be of assistance to their fellow sistas, they can do so by showing them the way toward backing away from the table and slimming down. It would be much more productive, instead of dancing a convoluted gig to avoid what is painfully obvious to anyone with at least one good eye.

    God i love plain speaking. :)

    O.

  • pvw

    Re. Gabby Douglas: people have talked about her hair???? Hmm, I think I missed something–none of the stories I first read mentioned it. I only saw a brief commentary on it in a story about her faith (Christianity) and had to go looking for it. As for that type of hair thing and complaints about how it looked, I don’t get it; I didn’t see what the problem was. And as for not working out due to one’s hairstyle, that is just beyond ridiculous. Perhaps that is because I always worked out, regarless of my hair style, and have worn a natural for years. With my current style of twists and twist outs, my hair is not a big deal for me when I work out or do anything else, for that matter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As for that type of hair thing and complaints about how it looked, I don’t get it; I didn’t see what the problem was.

      Me either! I think Gabby Douglas is beyond adorable – the best candidate for America’s sweetheart that we’ve seen in a very long time.

      I’d rather see people up in arms about the Russians covering themselves in bizarre glitter and heavy makeup!

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms. Walsh:
    We have on numerous occasions, discussed weight issues in this forum. Why does it bother you when i merely add in the fact that the women in question happen to be black?

    Nothing ive said is untrue; again it seems to be one of those things where if it upsets you and/or one of your readers, its a problem. At what point does the truth matter?

    You have commenters in this forum who discuss “nonwhite” things all the time; ms hope frequently discusses life from an asian perspective often at length; ms anacaona cant seem to make it through one thread without mentioning her dominican background, albeit usually to trash the men of her native country. If its ok for these women to do this on the regular-and please do not test me to go and get the many, many links of them in action-why is what im saying so wrong, so bad?

    You know, the problem im having is that youre not taking me on on the merits of what ive been saying; and as for the “black thing” heres something for you to consider:

    Im talking about (your) fellow americans-and-how what happens to them intersects with what is obtaining here. Do you deny that they are indeed related? If so, on what grounds-because i can assure you that “hooking up” was around long before the belmonts of the world discovered it.

    It would really be nice to have a discussion on the merits of the argument rather than whether whats being said makes us upset or not. After all one of the defining hallmarks of being an adult, is dealing with aspects of life we may not like.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nothing ive said is untrue; again it seems to be one of those things where if it upsets you and/or one of your readers, its a problem. At what point does the truth matter?

      I have never raised weight issues here, other than to advise women they are more likely to attract men if they are fit. The obesity issue is a favorite of male commenters, not me.

      Whether something is true or not is not my criterion for selecting it as fodder for discussion. There are many things that are true that I choose not to write about, because it’s not relevant to my mission, or I don’t deem it potentially helpful.

      Your haranguing black women for obesity in a forum where there are no obese black women doesn’t make sense. Once again, you’re taking the debate to the wrong people.

      It would really be nice to have a discussion on the merits of the argument rather than whether whats being said makes us upset or not. After all one of the defining hallmarks of being an adult, is dealing with aspects of life we may not like.

      I decide which topics will be argued here. I am not interested in your argument about the eating habits of black women, and I do not need to defend my choice to you.

      Furthermore, it is not your job to serve up “aspects of life we may not like” here at HUS. No one appointed you chief truth teller or head of programming.

      I will delete any future comments that I perceive as race baiting.

  • Zach

    @Sassy and @Joel

    Agreed re both of your assessments of 8+ women. I definitely agree with Joel in that these women tend to be less promiscuous, with the reason being that they are still in demand enough that they can use their market power to obtain relationships. The breaking of the sex cartel in the sexual revolution has really hurt the average looking women the most. The really attractive women still receive enough attention that they can select for and demand commitment before sex (most of the time), but the average looking woman doesn’t have the market power to demand that commitment, and so many of them, if they refrain from casual sex, will get little to no attention, at least commitment-oriented attention.

    Sassy, I agree that hot/beautiful/cute are generally all about presentation. Most beautiful girls I know would be “hot” if they dressed in skintight clothing a lot, they just choose not to. Plenty of hot women I know aren’t quite as beautiful, but they put it all out on display.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Whoops, minor blockquote fail.

    I have given you considerable leeway here and allowed you to use HUS as a platform for your views, partly because there has been a group of people interested in debating with you.

    But comments like the one above, which carry a judgmental tone and do not appear to apply to any of the women here, are not only OT, they’re over the top.

    I’m getting emails complaining that you are taking over threads with “Black America” issues and I think they’re valid. Stop highjacking the threads, you have your own platform for your views. I don’t understand why someone with his own blog is arguing these issues here. Feel free to link to a post the TOF, but I won’t continue to allow it here.

    Thank you Susan.

    I knew he had gone too far and was seriously misguided when he posted that comment. My comment (#368), proves that his claim is false. Black women, when considering or adjusting for SES, are no more overweight or obese than women of other races. The 7 links I provided, which include various empirical research articles and data, prove that.

    High SES black women, like the many black women on this very blog, are typically not overweight or obese. They are in the majority, not the minority. Black women of high SES who are overweight or obese are in the minority. They are the exceptions, not the rule.

    A lot of black women are overweight or obese because they are of low SES, not because they are black. The majority of black women are indeed of lower SES as well.

    I am sorry to inform her and the other “not me” sista ladies of the forum of the fact that yes, the sistas weight problem is one that is no respector of ses. Again, per the black womens health study-itself something that was borne of getting its study subjects from americas top colleges and universities (read: middle-upper middle class black women), the numbers and data is clear: black women, in aggregate, do indeed have a weight problem. That one can rattle off a number of one-off, disjointed links, along with seeing a half dozen anecdotal women like oneself does not dunk the black womens health study.

    The links I provided were not disjointed. The links I provided were of 7 different scientific research articles, all saying the same exact thing. If you have a problem with the information that those research articles reveal, take it up with the authors.

    *Edit*: I don’t remember addressing you originally, so why are you talking to me?

    I can discuss topics with other people or provide the readers with information, even if it’s counter to anything you have stated. I want the people to be well informed. Let them make up their own minds.

  • Kirk

    “Weird, I think these tees refer to Greek organizations.”

    @ Susan
    Thank God! I thought the end of the world was nigh.

    Regarding my other question, can anyone link me to a picture of the “shapeless” male body type that Meer was criticizing? My shoulders are definitely wider than my hips (I lift 3 times a week), but my definition of male shapeliness may differ from most womens’.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kirk

      I think she is describing a pear-shaped man.

      ps

  • Iggles

    Nice try at trying to say Susan isn’t comfortable discussing race issues, but I’m not buying it. Your post at #400 was ridiculous. Full stop.

    Seriously, Ion is right — you’re continually having tantrums whenever someone disagrees with you. You have to “win” no matter what, and if you can’t best them in debate than you tear them down with personal attacks. You get irate when people ignore your comments, reminding them they haven’t supplied you with sources, yet you ignored my earlier post when I reproached your tone towards Ion. I was on the debate team in both junior high and high school, so I KNOW that’s not how debating works!

    You do not qualify any of your statements, yet you continually accuse others of lying when they point to examples that run contrary! You haven’t met each and every black woman in America so how can you say that we ALL have a victim mentality??

    I am a black woman and I do not have a victim mentality. My mother does not. My older sister does not. My grandmother does not (ha! That’s laughable!). My eldest sister does, but that’s 1 out of 5, so clearly you are WRONG.

    My ex had a victim mentality and he isn’t black nor is he a woman! Victim mentality runs across race AND gender.

    You say you’re sick of black women not taking accountability – you know what I am sick of? I’m sick of coming here to Susan’s site, which isn’t race based at all, and reading another one of your rants against black women. I don’t think it’s fair to me or any of the black female posters or lurkers. Clearly you have issues with black women in general. Work them out on your own time or on your own blog. I am not naive enough to buy that your comments are “straight talk” aimed to help black women. No, it seems like their aimed to persuade everyone else that black women aren’t worthy mates.

    When you talk about other issues, such as the manosphere, you actually have interesting things to add to the conversation. However your so-called “in aggregate” comments read as negative attacks on black women as a whole — which ironically don’t apply to the type of black women that actually post here! So yes, Susan’s right that it’s OT. There isn’t any place for you here to berate, criticize, shame, and deride black women “in aggregate” :roll:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You say you’re sick of black women not taking accountability — you know what I am sick of? I’m sick of coming here to Susan’s site, which isn’t race based at all, and reading another one of your rants against black women.

      And this is the bottom line. I will not allow any conversation that drives away readers of either sex. It’s bad for business and I don’t intend to sacrifice readership at HUS for arguments I’m not even making and don’t agree with!

  • Ion

    pvw “Re. Gabby Douglas: people have talked about her hair???? Hmm, I think I missed something–none of the stories I first read mentioned it.”

    I second. I had to google “Gabby Douglas hair” in order to even see what Obsidian was talking about. Every black and white blog I’ve read have been supportive of her. Some of my female friends even have her as their profile picture on facebook.

    “Ashley stewart is a fashion chain that caters to white collar professional black women who are plus sized and ive known many such women who made in excess of six figures annually who shopped there. ”

    And

    “Ashley stewart is a national chain of stores that markets apparel to professional black women. ”

    I just heard of them and went to the site….. If they cater to professional black women with six figure salaries, how come all their clothing is under $40, and there’s not a selection of high quality suits (or professional clothing for that matter) to chose from? Even their home page looks like the plus-sized version of senior prom. So…lets consider this “proof” to be debunked and heavily falsified as well.

  • Iggles

    My comment at #425 is directed at Obsidian.

  • Mike C

    Heh, some guy needs counseling and as expected, the ***MRAssholes**** steer him towards P&D blogs.

    Hmmmm….it isn’t clear whether this is directed at me and my comment but perusing the comments I suspect it might be in a passive-aggressive way. I’d be happy to be corrected on that though.

    The truth is you have absolutely no idea what Anonymous Beta needs. You are a kid in your first serious relationship of any meaningful duration. When you’ve been in a multi-year relationship and have some knowledge of the various issues that entails then maybe you’ll have some notion of what he may or may not need. Reading through his story brought back some personal reminders for me, especially as it relates to the unstable personality and negative emotions and drama he has dealt with on an ongoing basis. Although it isn’t crystal clear from his story, it seems to me he has a relationship dynamic where she probably considers him “lucky” to have a woman of her beauty and therefore can shit all over him (the insane comments about laundry and demeaning stuff about income).

    FWIW, I’ve actually attended a few marital counseling sessions as the counselor wanted the children there for a couple of sessions when my parents had some marital counseling. The entire thing was a f*cking charade. I sat there in amazement at the absurdity of the entire thing. The truth is IMO that if a marriage needs “counseling” to resolve or work through issues, then it is probably already damaged beyond repair and has dynamics that can’t be fixed. What I observed with counseling was the objective was to tell one party they are “right” and the other party they are “wrong” and need to do whatever necessary to accomodate the “right” party.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      The truth is IMO that if a marriage needs “counseling” to resolve or work through issues, then it is probably already damaged beyond repair and has dynamics that can’t be fixed. What I observed with counseling was the objective was to tell one party they are “right” and the other party they are “wrong” and need to do whatever necessary to accomodate the “right” party.

      It sounds like you had a bad counselor. A good therapist never offers “right” and “wrong” judgments. I have seen marital counseling work wonders for people, assuming that both were interested in staying in the marriage and working on it.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Iggles

    You say you’re sick of black women not taking accountability – you know what I am sick of? I’m sick of coming here to Susan’s site, which isn’t race based at all, and reading another one of your rants against black women. I don’t think it’s fair to me or any of the black female posters or lurkers. Clearly you have issues with black women in general. Work them out on your own time or on your own blog. I am not naive enough to buy that your comments are “straight talk” aimed to help black women. No, it seems like their aimed to persuade everyone else that black women aren’t worthy mates.

    Amen!

    @ Susan Walsh

    And this is the bottom line. I will not allow any conversation that drives away readers of either sex. It’s bad for business and I don’t intend to sacrifice readership at HUS for arguments I’m not even making and don’t agree with!

    Double Amen!

  • Mike C

    When my kids were growing up I had these two terms I used. PMOS and UMOS. A PMOS is a “productive member of society.” I even had a t-shirt made with PMOS on it for my son one time. This is the greatest indication of character, IMO. It was and is simply unthinkable that my children might grow up to be lazy, selfish and unproductive. They must contribute to the functioning of a healthy society, full stop.

    I agree with your sentiment here. One thing to ponder is defining exactly what a PMOS is. Take a guy who worked for a big investment bank making a big salary to essentially create an investment product filled with tranches of absolute garbage shit mortgage securities which he then sells to some pension fund which then goes bust and people collecting pensions are now collecting reduced benefits. This person gets up every morning and puts on a suit and tie and goes to work. Are they a PMOS? What about people who are part of unproductive stifling bureaucracies? I would argue that at least probably 20-30% of lawyers are essentially parasitic (to use your term) on the real economy. The real PMOS is the guy who goes out to the middle of the ocean on some dangerous rig to try and get some oil so you and I can fill our cars a bit cheaper.

    I genuinely hope some day that I am in a financial position where I can do some real, substantial tangible good with my money. I would feel good about that. But make no mistake. Many people who would like to think they are PMOSs are kidding themselves.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This person gets up every morning and puts on a suit and tie and goes to work. Are they a PMOS? What about people who are part of unproductive stifling bureaucracies? I would argue that at least probably 20-30% of lawyers are essentially parasitic (to use your term) on the real economy.

      Well, I’m not going to get into judgment calls on people’s careers. It’s possible to be productive and evil. And there are many cases where moral character isn’t so clear, e.g. Teddy Kennedy.

      I used the term “productive” to refer to work ethic, and how a person chooses to apply that is another question, which also relates to character. PMOS has nothing to do with income. I certainly do count men on rigs, but one does not need to be noble in order to be a PMOS. Society needs people in business, and law, and health care, and waste management. There are many ways to contribute.

  • JP

    “Take a guy who worked for a big investment bank making a big salary to essentially create an investment product filled with tranches of absolute garbage shit mortgage securities which he then sells to some pension fund which then goes bust and people collecting pensions are now collecting reduced benefits. This person gets up every morning and puts on a suit and tie and goes to work. Are they a PMOS? What about people who are part of unproductive stifling bureaucracies? I would argue that at least probably 20-30% of lawyers are essentially parasitic (to use your term) on the real economy.”

    I’m a parasite!

    Yay!

    So, is lawyer generally “high status” in the world of hypergamy?

    I’m pretty sure that everyone outside of lawyerworld is pretty clueless about the bizarre internal status hierarchy of lawyerworld and the chronic low pay and unemployment that certain lawyers suffer.

    (I will say that this thread is the only place I have ever seen the eating habits of black women, astrology, pear shaped men, and the economic value of bureaucrats so seamlessly woven into such a coherent and compelling narrative.)

  • Joel

    ”Heh, some guy needs counseling and as expected, the MRAssholes steer him towards P&D blogs.”

    No. Those who direct young men to visit P&D blogs aren’t MRAs. The MRas are concerned with men’s rights, not in getting laid. They’re basically yired of being used and punished by a matiarchy for being born beta. The ones who advocate P&D are PUA’s and cads, those are the dangerous types.

    The MGTOW on the other hand exalt the benefits of going their own way(no marriage, no relationships, no casual sex, no friendships with women and many even believe in denying women a mere hint of attention). It’s not a bad path to follow, that of a MGTOW. No child-support, no alimony, no nagging girlfriend/wife, the guy also doesn’t have to deal with a woman and her problems and eventual health issues, all of his money is for himself and so forth. He doesn’t have stress in his life and he can do whatever he pleases. Dr. Helen has an article on this.

  • Joel

    Here it is:

    ”So some men seem to thrive in this world despite the tilt towards privilege and the accompanying hand-wringing for women’s needs. They ride around in their truck, fish, find places to relax and make a good living, despite the odds against them. In short, they look happy and as if life is still good.”

    http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2012/06/29/how-to-live-like-a-king-in-a-world-full-of-princesses/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joel

      If I’m not mistaken you’re new to HUS? Welcome, you’ve already left some great comments.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    To be clear, here’s the Google research for the search terms “Gabby Douglas Hair”:

    Number count (in terms of hits/links): 713,000

    Here’s one of the NPR stories on the matter:
    If Gabby’s Got The Gold, Why Flip Over Her Hair?
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetorch/2012/08/02/157858684/if-gabbys-got-the-gold-why-flip-over-her-hair

    Detroit Free Press:
    Gabby Douglas attracts attention for, of all things, her hair
    http://www.freep.com/article/20120803/SPORTS17/120803053/gabby-douglas-hair-criticism-bloggers?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

    Los Angeles Times:
    Why are people being mean to Gabby Douglas?
    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-gabby-douglas-hair-gender-race-20120803,0,2974115.story

    The Root:
    Leave Gabby Douglas’ Hair Alone
    http://www.theroot.com/buzz/leave-gabby-douglas-hair-alone

    And finally, The Grio:
    Gabby Douglas’ hair gets more attention than her gold medal
    http://thegrio.com/2012/08/02/gabby-douglas-hair-gets-more-attention-than-gold-medal/#48476247

    And that’s just for starters.

    Just wanted to make sure the facts were out there…

    O.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    What’s the opposite of preselection? Postselection? That’s bizarre.

    You would be surprised. Some women have a weird motherly connection to their mate choice and they will pick a man that “needs” them. I’m not sure how prevalent is mind you but I had seen it a couple of times and surprisingly this people can last forever as long as the man never plays “the dread” card because the moment “He doesn’t need me” clicks on her brain she will be looking for a man that does, ASAP.

    The breaking of the sex cartel in the sexual revolution has really hurt the average looking women the most.

    This is something that cannot be said enough. If you take a look at the most militant feminists they are often very average on everything. I do think that even though the movement started with bored rich women the average women saw it as a chance to gain the status they didn’t had naturally. There is not “equal number of women” for trash picking, carpentry or boxing, but for CEO’s and political seats, like Church lady used to say “Isn’t that convenient?”, YMMV

    FWIW, I’ve actually attended a few marital counseling sessions as the counselor wanted the children there for a couple of sessions when my parents had some marital counseling. The entire thing was a f*cking charade. I sat there in amazement at the absurdity of the entire thing. The truth is IMO that if a marriage needs “counseling” to resolve or work through issues, then it is probably already damaged beyond repair and has dynamics that can’t be fixed. What I observed with counseling was the objective was to tell one party they are “right” and the other party they are “wrong” and need to do whatever necessary to accomodate the “right” party.

    I would say that I had been to marriage counseling with hubby and even though we both agree how boring/irritating the whole thing was (we actually didn’t finished the session because half way there we realized that our “problem” was just really stupid and we could work it out ourselves, so far we still love each other and everything is more than fine) but calling it a waste of time is a bit of a stretch we have some other friends that saved their marriage over having a professional third party. The key is to find a good match in counseling. So if someone gets to counseling and is not happy, change to another one and another one till you find the one that works the best a FOR BOTH, YMMV.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Iggles #427:
    “I just heard of them and went to the site….. If they cater to professional black women with six figure salaries, how come all their clothing is under $40,”

    O: You’ve never heard of people who are frugal with theirs?

    “and there’s not a selection of high quality suits (or professional clothing for that matter) to chose from?”

    O: I’m not in a position to say either way; I would suggest you actually talk to the thousands of Black Women who shop there.

    “Even their home page looks like the plus-sized version of senior prom. So…lets consider this “proof” to be debunked and heavily falsified as well.”

    O: No…let’s not:

    PLUS-SIZE APPAREL CHAIN ASHLEY STEWART FITS INTO THE LIFESTYLES OF URBAN WOMEN
    http://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct0407/Retail_ashley_stewart.php

    “As Americans get bigger, so do plus-size clothing chains, it seems. One of these, Secaucus, N.J.-based Ashley Stewart, now has 200 stores in 28 states but plans to open 40 new ones this year and an additional 40 next year, primarily in urban areas. Of those new ones, about 25 will go into shopping centers. “Our core customer is an African-American woman in large cities,” said Donald Dust, executive vice president of operations at Urban Brands, Ashley Stewart’s parent company. “We’re bringing these stores where she lives, which is primarily an urban area. Accessibility is everything.”

    Google truly is your friend… ;)

    O.

  • SayWhaat

    Reading through his story brought back some personal reminders for me, especially as it relates to the unstable personality and negative emotions and drama he has dealt with on an ongoing basis.

    Yeah, no. Sorry. Your experience isn’t as applicable in this situation (and definitely less so than J’s) because as someone who willingly does not want children, you haven’t experienced the stressors of infertility on a marital relationship. Fair point that I haven’t either, but at the same time, I’m not advising Anon Beta to torch his relationship just because he feels he doesn’t have the “upper hand”. He’s been less than admirable in his actions to a faithful (albeit stressed out) wife, but if he can move on and let go then he has a shot at a happy marriage. No need to poison him any further.

  • SayWhaat

    The MRas are concerned with men’s rights, not in getting laid.

    Pfft. That movement’s pissed on itself and begging for a nappie, as far as I’m concerned. I’m sympathetic in many ways but as long as they keep associating with misogynistic twerps, they’re not going to get very far.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    The following is from the Black Women’s Health Study, because again I want the facts to be out there:

    “7. Lancaster K, Smiciklas-Wright H, Kumanyika S, Mitchell D, Mauger D, Palmer J.
    Comparison of characteristics of responders vs. non-responders for 3-day food records in
    African-American women [abstract]. FASEB J 1998;12(4) Part I:A525.
    Women who provided food records did not differ materially in terms of body mass index, age,
    education, or region of residence from those who did not provide records.

    11. Rosenberg L, Palmer JR, Adams-Campbell LL, Rao RS. Obesity and hypertension among
    college-educated black women in the United States. J Hum Hypertens 1999;13:237-41. There was a high rate of overweight and of high blood pressure among BWHS participants with
    high levels of education. This was also the case among women with less education. Overweight
    was strongly associated with an increased risk of high blood pressure at all educational levels.”

    http://www.bu.edu/bwhs/BWHS_Pubs.pdf

    What is the Black Women’s Health Study?

    “Black women have higher rates of many illnesses, such as hypertension, breast cancer at young ages, diabetes, stroke, and lupus. There needs to be a better understanding of the causes of these illnesses and determinants of good health. The Black Women’s Health Study (BWHS) recognizes that need and is working to answer these questions.

    If you are hearing about us for the first time, or have heard about us and want to find out more, we encourage you to explore our web site. Unfortunately, we cannot invite you to take part in the study. Due to the study design, only the 59,000 women who enrolled in the study in 1995 can participate.”

    http://www.bu.edu/bwhs/

    And Ms. Walsh, the BWHS is in your neck of the woods – out of Boston University! Small world. :)

    O.

  • Iggles

    O – Nice snark, however, you said my name while citing Ion’s comment..

    I think you’re beating a dead horse since Susan and other posters agreed the previous discussion was OT, but of course YMMV *shrugs*

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Kathy and Ms. SayWhaat:
    In that both of you have addressed my remarks to Mr. Anonymous Beta, I would like to take this time to respond in kind.

    First, how often have we heard a battered Woman going back to her abusive hubbie, on the grounds that they had “kissed and made up”? As I often say, to ask the question is to answer it. Simply put there is no excuse for emotional abuse, and let’s be clear here, that is what this Man has experienced, not merely a bad argument or two. It has no place in any sane, healthy person’s life – and if the shoe were on the other foot, I would be telling the Woman to ditch the guy, too.

    But you see, that’s what’s at-issue here – I honestly do believe that Women see this issue differently depending on who’s the abuser, and who’s being abused. I say, that Mr. Anonymous Beta doesn’t need any help feeling sorry for himself; he can pull that off all on his own. As the Sistas so often say – and they would be right, I might add – he can do bad all by himself.

    Based on everything I’ve read by Mr. AB, it is my judgment and view, that his marriage is over; actually, it’s been over for quite some time now. It’s all over except for the shouting. I do absolutely believe that he has to be the one to ultimately decide where he goes from here…but from where I sit, it’s pretty much clear as a bell where things are. It’s just a matter of staving off the inevitable at this point.

    As for the notion that I’m part and parcel of the MRAsphere, I’ll say this:

    While I do agree with many of the broad concerns and themes of said ‘sphere, I’ve also gone on record with many of my criticisms of same as well. Moreover, nothing in what I’ve said to Mr. AB has been “hostile” to Women in the least; I merely advised him to get out from under someone who has proven herself to be utterly toxic to him, and to work on himself so that he can get the kinds of sexual life (however he defines it; I am neutral on all of that) he wants without having to visit whores to do it. Again, if the shoe were on the other foot, my advice, the core of it, would be essentially the same: no one deserves abuse like that.

    Just wanted to clear that up…

    O.

  • Joel

    ”Pfft. That movement’s pissed on itself and begging for a nappie, as far as I’m concerned. I’m sympathetic in many ways but as long as they keep associating with misogynistic twerps, they’re not going to get very far.”

    Some of them are extreme but people are going to fall into extreme displays of what they believe in anything. Roissy is a 40 year old man who still prowls the streets of DC looking for sex. Casanova had a strong intellect and he preferred to seduce and chase women.

    Isn’t PUA alluring and function-able for many betas? didn’t they get a date or a relationship thanks to Game? Don’t many of the good-looking dudes have sex with beautiful women? Yes, but they don’t spend their entire lives going from Country to Country to seduce women.

    Concerning the MGTOW, yeah, some of them do hate women, but the vast majority of the men who removed themselves from the sexual market place(lets be honest, whats’ the point of being in the sexual market when betas are only good for women who are interested in marriage and that only happens in their 30′s, at least most of the time) are productive members of society and aren’t out there going Kamikaze on women.

    They simple deny women the free attention that women value and that is understandable. Why should anyone get anything for free?No one gave a free pass to Michael Phelps. I know that women have what most men have but most men don’t receive it(a girlfriend/wife when she’s reasonably attractive/average or merely average, free of stds, with no children and no baggage) so what’s the point of bothering with women?

    Those guys are harmless. They do recruit their younger brothers and their friends which helps the movement build itself up, but there’s nothing wrong with it. The more Beta males refuse to get married or engage women outside of work, the more women have the chance to meet and to mate with Alpha males.

    Now, concerning the MRA’s. Most of them strive for true equality. Nothing of this sort of ”I want all of the world’s rights and luxuries but I don’t want to work for it, but I want to earn as much as you do.” that most feminists support. They’re far more likely to get remarried than the MGTOW men and the PUA’s but they want to see their children more often, to stop with the alimony(as it should be; I don’t expect to be continuously paid by a boss I no longer work for, I expect women to pull their own weight) and they want women to pay for the mistakes they commit.

    That’s about it. The only men worth fearing are the PUA’s and the extreme of the extreme MGTOW. Thankfully, the fanatical MGTOW is rarely seen near women, no threat to their security, they’re more of a ”mental terrorist.” They keep to themselves and to their blogs.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Iggles:
    “O – Nice snark, however, you said my name while citing Ion’s comment…”

    O: My bad, you are 100% correct. My apologies.

    “I think you’re beating a dead horse since Susan and other posters agreed the previous discussion was OT, but of course YMMV *shrugs*”

    O: Facts matter.

    O.

  • Iggles

    SayWhaat @ #439,

    +1

    He’s been hurt but he can still see happy days ahead with his wife and son. He needs the advice on Athol’s blog, not the number to a divorce lawyer.

  • Joel

    See, here’s a positive example of four men going MGTOW the right way.

    A Confederacy of Bachelors

    WHAT if you had never settled down? Never taken that job for the health insurance, or decided to start a family? For New Yorkers of a certain age, those are the middle-of-the night questions, the nagging thoughts that occur as they squeeze themselves onto the packed No. 1 train for another day at the office, ignoring that unfinished screenplay or latent desire to chuck everything and live in an ashram.

    New Yorkers in midlife crisis, meet the brotherhood of Fortress Astoria: Danaher Dempsey, Luke Crane, Rick Brown and Shyaporn Theerakulstit, best friends and artists.

    They have no children, no linear career histories, no readily disposable savings. The four men, all heterosexual, approaching 40 and never married, have lived together for 18 years, give or take a revolving guest roommate, cohabitating in spaces like an East Village walk-up, a Chelsea loft and, now, a converted office space in Queens.

    http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mens-general-discussion/10093-confederacy-bachelors.html

    Consider the few women-haters found in the MGTOW community as the cockroach that penetrates a perfectly well-treated house;it happened because the house was just too inviting.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “I find it interesting that you would mention black women in my commentary re: ms hope; i didnt say anything about black women there”
    ———-
    > Then I apologize for making the assumption that that’s where you were heading.

    “That, as an asian woman in american life, she brings certain assets, real or perceived, to the american mating marketplace. Whether thats “fair” or not, whether we like it or not, that is the truth.”
    ———
    > Yes. It also helps that her culture values marriage, so she seeks only marriage-minded men and doesn’t waste time with those who don’t fit that criteria.

    “Here i am then, plainly saying just that-that women indeed are not the same-and im getting a workout for that”
    ———
    > You get no argument from me that we’re not all the same. At the same time, there’s no reason why people can’t strive to be their best.
    Hope was proactive in ways that others should consider, so I find her advise useful. Just another set of tools to add to the toolbox. If you think that the things she did (initiate, relocate, etc.) won’t work on other men, particularly black men, then I wish you’d tell us why.

    “ i did and continue to cite the sources you mentioned. However it must also be said that i modified much of it to suit my particularities because they didnt speak to them.”
    and
    “if you do not take into account the particularities of the smp you can and will most likely fail to achieve your objectives.”
    ———–
    > Absolutely! One has to make adjustments for one’s particular situation.

  • Alias

    If any of you missed the HBO documentary series “The Weight of the Nation”, it’s on youtube. Spread the word.
    Part 4- focuses on some of the challenges faced by people in the lower SES.

  • Ion

    O:

    “PLUS-SIZE APPAREL CHAIN ASHLEY STEWART FITS INTO THE LIFESTYLES OF URBAN WOMEN
    http://www.icsc.org/srch/sct/sct0407/Retail_ashley_stewart.php

    The article says it caters to “urban” women with a chic street style. So this “proof” you yourself cite is once again, completely CONTRADICTORY to your original claim. Your claim was that Ashley Stewart catered to “UMC and white collar professional black women” and “six figure salary” women. This article says they do not.

    6 figure salary women don’t shop at stores that sell party dresses for $40 bucks, nor do they wear party dresses and cheap travel knit to work.

    Please just stop. Move on.

  • Zach

    @Joel

    I’ve always been confused by this “MGTOW” thing. To me, it just sounds like the guys who didn’t get married/have families. There have always been men like that, and I wouldn’t necessarily classify them as a movement. They also span a large portion of the SES and MMV (see Clooney, George). What’s the difference with this MGTOW thing?

  • SayWhaat

    he more Beta males refuse to get married or engage women outside of work, the more women have the chance to meet and to mate with Alpha males.

    Well, not to dive into the whole alpha/beta rehash, but suffice it to say that as someone who finds “Alpha” males barely mate-worthy, this scenario is problematic.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Ms. Walsh #262:
    “We’re on the same page. The fact is, 88% of men say they have a sex life.”

    O: “88%” of WHAT Men, Ms. Walsh? See, I view the AskMen Survey as being suspect, because they didn’t ask me what I thought, and I would lay good odds that they didn’t poll Brothas at large on it, and that’s just for starters. No, not gonna make a Congressional case out of it, but since you’re relying on it I think I can and should note the fact that it is nowhere near comprehensive. Yet another reason why these kind of conversations are important. :)

    “We don’t know what their standard is for that hurdle, but if it’s yours, then I think we can agree far more than 12% are not getting everything they want.”

    O: Yes, I think so…but you changed my original reply; here’s what I actually said, in full:

    *MY argument, MY premise, is that most guys aren’t getting laid – let me define that for you:

    1. Getting regular, ball-draining sex, WITH THE WOMAN/WOMEN OF THEIR CHOICE.

    It is a proven fact that a Man busts much stronger, copious nuts when he is having sex with a highly desirable female. Yes, the Male Orgasm/Nut Busting Factor is indeed highly variable. Simply put, the hotter the chick, the harder the you know what.*

    This is crucial because it utterly kills the notion by some researchers – and here yes I am citing Buss among them – that Men’s sexuality is so “simple”. It is not. The Male Orgasm is indeed quite variable, per the parameters noted above. It is, what it is – no matter who don’t like it…

    “But then again, no one ever promised that men are entitled to that.”

    O: What does being “entitled” have to do with the price of rice? I never said anything about being “entitled”. I merely made the case that most Men walking around weren’t getting laid. I stand by that argument.

    “In history, I imagine only a tiny percentage of men got that, far fewer than today.”

    O: Sure.

    “And of course, many women are not getting what they want either. Meer certainly isn’t getting a relationship with the man of her choice.”

    O: Ms. Meer, like most Women in our age, want fried ice – she just isn’t as clear about that fact as Ms. You-Know-Who. ;)

    “I think I did just tell Meer that, tactfully. I have no idea what Meer looks like, and even if I did, her actual SMV is irrelevant. What is relevant is the SMV of the men she wants, relative to her own.”

    O: I think Ms. Meer herself has spoken to these matters and has made clear on where she stands presently. Time will tell if Wisdom will prevail.

    “No one can say that any woman here is aiming out of her league unless:

    1. She asks, as RWC did.

    2. You have pics of both her and the men she wants.”

    O: Are you sure?
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/01/relationshipstrategies/when-pigs-fly/comment-page-2/#comment-139157

    I quote:
    “Are you trying to play out of your league? Because that’s where much of the female frustration in the SMP comes from.”

    By your own admission, you do not know what Ms. Meer looks like, yet this fact did not prevent your opining on the matter; why then is it wrong for me to do so in kind?

    Please explain?

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Ion:
    “The article says it caters to “urban” women with a chic street style. So this “proof” you yourself cite is once again, completely CONTRADICTORY to your original claim. Your claim was that Ashley Stewart catered to “UMC and white collar professional black women” and “six figure salary” women. This article says they do not.”

    O: Yet, they do, I’ve seen it firsthand. And if you actually took a step outside your door and went to say, Atlantic Ave down in Brooklyn, you’d see it there, too.

    “6 figure salary women don’t shop at stores that sell party dresses for $40 bucks, nor do they wear party dresses and cheap travel knit to work.”

    O: So, you’re a high level executive now? Weren’t you out of work? I actually know quite a few Black Women at that level who have shopped at Ashley Stewart, for years.

    “Please just stop. Move on.”

    O: Gladly – as soon as you start providing some evidence to back up your statements…

    O.

  • Alias

    pvw:
    ” As for that type of hair thing and complaints about how it looked, I don’t get it; I didn’t see what the problem was. ”
    ———–
    Neither do I.
    Go Gabby!

    Sassy,
    I thought your post breaking down good looking women was good. That’s exactly what I think when people online claim that “attractive” men are playas, doesn’t match my experience IRL.
    *attractive men*
    they must mean the high maintenance kind with the fake tan, ‘roided up bods, and globs of gel.
    The *naturally* attractive men that I know, the down to earth/low maintenance guys- get lots of attention from women but not all of them jump at every chance to them because they are selective (for both looks and character). Yes, there aren’t enough to go around, but they exist.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias #448:
    “Obsidian:
    “I find it interesting that you would mention black women in my commentary re: ms hope; i didnt say anything about black women there”
    ———-
    > Then I apologize for making the assumption that that’s where you were heading.”

    O: No problemo.

    “That, as an asian woman in american life, she brings certain assets, real or perceived, to the american mating marketplace. Whether thats “fair” or not, whether we like it or not, that is the truth.”
    ———
    > Yes. It also helps that her culture values marriage, so she seeks only marriage-minded men and doesn’t waste time with those who don’t fit that criteria.”

    O: No argument there; I think the marital data of AW/WM couples bears this out…

    “Here i am then, plainly saying just that-that women indeed are not the same-and im getting a workout for that”
    ———
    > You get no argument from me that we’re not all the same. At the same time, there’s no reason why people can’t strive to be their best.”

    O: Striving to be one’s best doesn’t conflict with what I’ve said, and that’s the point – that merely pointing out that all Women aren’t the same is seen as blasphemous or something. Aren’t we all adults?

    “Hope was proactive in ways that others should consider, so I find her advise useful. Just another set of tools to add to the toolbox. If you think that the things she did (initiate, relocate, etc.) won’t work on other men, particularly black men, then I wish you’d tell us why.”

    O: In that it’s pretty clear that the vast majority of the readership don’t consider Black Men in their calculus of mates, we can leave them out. That leaves other Men, notably White of a certain class. A big trick there is in going to where they are, and on this score I think Ms. Walsh and others can be most helpful.

    “ i did and continue to cite the sources you mentioned. However it must also be said that i modified much of it to suit my particularities because they didnt speak to them.”
    and
    “if you do not take into account the particularities of the smp you can and will most likely fail to achieve your objectives.”
    ———–
    > Absolutely! One has to make adjustments for one’s particular situation.”

    O: Why then is this bad to say in this venue then? Perhaps you can explain?

    “If any of you missed the HBO documentary series “The Weight of the Nation”, it’s on youtube. Spread the word.
    Part 4- focuses on some of the challenges faced by people in the lower SES.”

    O: I for one have never disputed a bigger (pardon the pun) impact of weight gain/obesity on the lower end of the SES scale; what I was directly challenging in terms of Ms. Sassy and Ms. J’s arguments, among others, is the notion that Black Women at the middle and UMC levels didn’t have weight issues either. Clearly, this is not true, though I will freely concede that they may have less of it than their lower SES Sistas. This is why my mention of the Black Women’s Health Study becomes so important and vital to the discussion.

    O.

  • http://rationalism.wordpress.com Exocet

    Obsidian, props for you. I admire a man who has the tenacity to keep on fighting against these odds.

    I’m pretty sure you’ll be banned soon but for what it’s worth you have my respect for your thoughtful, precise and rational comments.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Exocet

      Are you aware that Obsidian has a blog? I wonder why he doesn’t make his arguments there…

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Joel #447:
    “WHAT if you had never settled down? Never taken that job for the health insurance, or decided to start a family? For New Yorkers of a certain age, those are the middle-of-the night questions, the nagging thoughts that occur as they squeeze themselves onto the packed No. 1 train for another day at the office, ignoring that unfinished screenplay or latent desire to chuck everything and live in an ashram.”

    O: This is very interesting, and serves as a strong response to Ms. Walsh’s comments on the matter on the Jessica Shairer thread; I’ll layout more my reasoning as to why she couldn’t be more dead wrong over there. But for now, I am curious – Joel, do you think these four native New Yorkers could be feted on Today and get cover stories in such hallowed mags as The Atlantic, as being New Bachelors for a New Age?

    What do you think?

    O.

  • Joel

    ”I’ve always been confused by this “MGTOW” thing. To me, it just sounds like the guys who didn’t get married/have families. There have always been men like that, and I wouldn’t necessarily classify them as a movement. They also span a large portion of the SES and MMV (see Clooney, George). What’s the difference with this MGTOW thing?”

    Right about that. MGTOW concerns men who don’t want to follow the traditional milestones that have been drilled into young men’s heads as a sort of incentive to leave behind a state of absolute and blissful freedom; marriage/co-habitation/LTR relationships and children.

    MGTOW is as diverse as you want it to be. Some MGTOW have completely dropped the ball. They don’t interact with women on any level. They’ve even managed to not look at very attractive women. I reckon they’ve achieved an insane level of indifference and they’re the closest Man has ever came(except Jesus Christ etc) to defeat human nature and let go of biological cravings. Porn consumption probably helps a lot.

    Then we have the MGTOW who still pursue relationships with women. There are a few married men who use marriage game to maintain their women’s attraction for them, and there are married MGTOW who want to get out of the marriage but won’t in order to stay close to their children, or to not end up financially destroyed.

    Some MGTOW have moved to poor Countries to marry women and have children. I am not a fan of this branch of MGTOW. They call themselves ”expats” and you can find them in several of the most conservative MGTOW blogs. Many a time I have been banned from those forums because I always headbutt this guy who is 72 years old and gloats on how attractive 25 year old Mexican women approach him to become their mistresses and that he uses this as leverage with his woman.

    I called this guy out many times, asking him what would happen had the young women been born in rich Countries and the guy starts to insult me or ignores me.

    Other MGTOW(infiltrated PUA’s) spend their online time on MGTOW blogs to let the readers know of the sexual escapades they had last weekend. Sometimes Roosh, Roissy and the other PUA gurus mention MGTOW and these guys google it, find the blogs and start to post. I dunno, I don’t enjoy that branch of MGTOW either but what can a guy do.

    And lastly, you have the MGTOW who are serial monogamists. They extend their sexual relationships with women years and years – until the women expect marriage. When the relationship hits that stage, they dump the girlfriends(they don’t co-habit) and they find another girlfriend.

  • JoeNewcastle

    ”Well, not to dive into the whole alpha/beta rehash, but suffice it to say that as someone who finds “Alpha” males barely mate-worthy, this scenario is problematic.”

    I’m sure the Ancient Romans didn’t appreciate the collapse of their Civilization, but it happened anyway as nothing can really last forever. Why bother with it, when it’s already inevitable.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    “I have never raised weight issues here, other than to advise women they are more likely to attract men if they are fit. The obesity issue is a favorite of male commenters, not me.”

    O; And if you will kindly recall, I recently made some comments about larger ladies that weren’t “bad” in the least; but unlike you, I won’t shy away from the facts because they’re likely to make someone upset. I assume adults can handle it.

    “Whether something is true or not is not my criterion for selecting it as fodder for discussion. There are many things that are true that I choose not to write about, because it’s not relevant to my mission, or I don’t deem it potentially helpful.”

    O: Just like you conveniently left out the identity of Ms. Jessica Shairer’s baby daddy? A key element of the story, I might add. Hmm.

    “Your haranguing black women for obesity in a forum where there are no obese black women doesn’t make sense. Once again, you’re taking the debate to the wrong people.”

    O: I beg to differ, in that the same issues that obtain there obtain in White America and are indeed creeping “upward” in terms of class; again, the Jessica Shairer article bears this out, as Ms. Chris Faulkner, touted in the NYT piece as being solidly middle class (and her hubby Kevin, I might add and to be fair) was quite rotund…

    “I decide which topics will be argued here. I am not interested in your argument about the eating habits of black women, and I do not need to defend my choice to you.”

    O: No, just your choice to allow Ms. Hope to discuss various and sundried aspects of Asian culture (could that have anything to do with the fact that you have an iron in that fire?), or Ms. Anacaona’s early and often references to Dominican culture, often to trash its Men wholesale? Again: why is that OK, but my mention of fellow American citizens, NOT OK, especially given the fact that what obtains in one does indeed inform the other? Please explain?

    “Furthermore, it is not your job to serve up “aspects of life we may not like” here at HUS. No one appointed you chief truth teller or head of programming.”

    O: No; I volunteered. :)

    “I will delete any future comments that I perceive as race baiting.”

    O: Does this include Ms. Hope’s Asian commentary, or Ms. Anacaona’s diatribes about the Men of the Domincan Repbulic?

    “And this is the bottom line. I will not allow any conversation that drives away readers of either sex. It’s bad for business and I don’t intend to sacrifice readership at HUS for arguments I’m not even making and don’t agree with!”

    O: I was simply noting facts taken from the only longitudinal study of its kind in America, which is in your backyard and does indeed inform the discussion, whether you like it or not.

    Ms. Walsh, I need to ask you a question:

    Are you going to sit there and tell me that there are no differences between people and that “generalized, cookbook” remedies are going to give the exact same results? Really? My argument, is only that so long as we deny these differences we will not be able to address them.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      I beg to differ, in that the same issues that obtain there obtain in White America and are indeed creeping “upward” in terms of class;

      That’s your judgment, and you’re obviously free to write about that at TOF. You don’t get to set the agenda at HUS regardless of whether you think I’m addressing necessary questions.

      No, just your choice to allow Ms. Hope to discuss various and sundried aspects of Asian culture (could that have anything to do with the fact that you have an iron in that fire?), or Ms. Anacaona’s early and often references to Dominican culture, often to trash its Men wholesale? Again: why is that OK, but my mention of fellow American citizens, NOT OK, especially given the fact that what obtains in one does indeed inform the other? Please explain?

      They’re not offending anyone! They’re sharing personal experiences in an effort to be interesting and helpful. Neither Hope nor Anacaona is making people uncomfortable and putting them on the defensive. I will not allow you to do that. Period.

      Are you going to sit there and tell me that there are no differences between people and that “generalized, cookbook” remedies are going to give the exact same results? Really? My argument, is only that so long as we deny these differences we will not be able to address them.

      So far, my posts have hit their target, by and large. I have a large and growing readership of black women. If my writing doesn’t resonate for them, they can let me know, and I’m sure they will. It’s not my job or my inclination to stratify the blog by race.

  • Alias

    Re: Hope’s advantage
    I’ve been thinking about Hope’s advantage when it comes to the #s.
    She’s college educated, marriage oriented- both positives for achieving marriage. Not to discount that Hope’s pretty. Large communities of Asians are concentrated on the West Coast, Hope lived in the Mid-West.

    Keep in mind that about 26 % of the total population is between ages 24-44. The sex ratio in the U.S. is roughly 1:1, so about 13% of either gender in the population is at marriageable age.
    If she targeted

    Total Population of (in the U.S);
    Chinese-Americans 1.2 %
    All Asian-Americans 4.8 % (Including Chinese-Americans)
    Multi-racial Asian-Americans 5.6 %
    White men who marry interracially 2.3 %
    Men of other races who’ll marry Asian-American women is about .36 %
    Total- ~ 13 % of the total US pop.
    She had to target 13% (marriage aged men) of the 13 % (her target demographic= total pop.)
    From that she has to weed out for mutual interest, compatibility, desire to marry, etc…

  • Wudang

    “She has sex whenever the mood strikes her -she’s got sort of a man harem. She is happy -apparently she is one of those rare women who “has sex like a man.” I do not tell her to stop because when I ask, “How’s that workin’ for ya?” she says, “Great!””

    One of the first girls I slept with was/is like that. A very content promiscuous woman. I´ve encountered a few others also and I`m always on the look out for them because they make for FBs that are uncomplicated and don`t create any drama. I`m curious what she is like. Is she high T? Does she like risk? I´ve found that the women who are like that often tend to do something like snowboarding, skateboarding, base jumping, mountain climbing, surfing etc. There is also a correlation to being involved heavily in hip hop subcultures. Also I think some of them tend to be unusually intelligent and highly logical thinkers. The woman who wrote diary of a call girl, having a phd in a stem field, comes to mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wudang

      I`m curious what she is like. Is she high T? Does she like risk? I´ve found that the women who are like that often tend to do something like snowboarding, skateboarding, base jumping, mountain climbing, surfing etc. There is also a correlation to being involved heavily in hip hop subcultures.

      She appears to be very high T. She has strong, large features, and she’s pretty hirsute. She’s also white but only hooks up with black men, FWIW. AFAIK she doesn’t pursue extreme sports, but her lifestyle is pretty crazy. She’s on track to become a Hollywood agent.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ms. Anacaona’s diatribes about the Men of the Domincan Repbulic?

    I won’t be saying anything else about my country men from now on in HUS.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I won’t be saying anything else about my country men from now on in HUS.

      Nonsense, your personal experience is always valid here. You’re not dealing in rumor, you share things you’ve observed first-hand.

  • Alias

    O:
    “In that it’s pretty clear that the vast majority of the readership don’t consider Black Men in their calculus of mates”
    ——
    > This is where I’m confused. Whether you thought that Hope’s advice is/isn’t applicable to black men. You’ve mentioned numerous times that you don’t think Black women target for intelligence, OK. So, would it be wrong to advise them to?
    ________

    O: “Why then is this bad to say in this venue then? Perhaps you can explain?”
    ——–
    > Perhaps because Susan isn’t a person of color nor is this her area of specialty- therefore she wants to focus on general strategies that may help everyone without venturing off into subjects that she knows very little about. That would be like you blogging about little old white ladies who retire and sell antique jewelry in Tahiti.
    _________

    > Re: UMC black women and obesity- I haven’t read the Black Women’s Studies or anything, but it’s obvious to the naked eye that obesity is much more prevalent in the lower classes, regardless of race.
    Whatever the case, I know this isn’t Susan’s focus, she’s just one woman with one blog, so I don’t want to keep going off on a tangent, although i know all of these issues are interrelated.

  • Wudang

    “The truth is IMO that if a marriage needs “counseling” to resolve or work through issues, then it is probably already damaged beyond repair and has dynamics that can’t be fixed. ”

    I`ve read relationship counselors say that studies show counseling only really helps in 10% of the cases when the relationship is already in trouble. They say that preventative counseling appear to have a far more positive effect. People I`ve talked to that have done relationship counseling (not that many but a few at least) agreed with that. That being said my mothers friends daughter has turned her relationship from horrible to quite good through counseling and I think it is always worth a shot.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias:
    Yes, I can see what you’re doing here, thanks for the numerical breakdown. By that I take it that Ms. Hope (or a similarly placed Asian Woman) has what, 39 million Men to work with?

    Not bad. And which goes to account for their (Asian Women) relatively – and considerably – higher marital rate that other IR couples (assuming of course, such a Woman wanted to marry IR; not all Asian Women do, of course). Either way you slice it, yes, her situation, while not a slam dunk, is a pretty nice layup. :)

    For other ladies, it’s more like trying to make a three point shot from midcourt…

    O.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “By that I take it that Ms. Hope (or a similarly placed Asian Woman) has what, 39 million Men to work with? ”
    ——–

    I suppose that’s true if all white men (the majority demographic) are willing to marry outside of their race, then yeah. The numbers don’t show that unless I’m missing something. Please show me the data.

  • Alias

    O:
    “For other ladies, it’s more like trying to make a three point shot from midcourt…”
    ——
    So? That’s life. Should they just sit back and wait for a husband to land on their laps or should they just give up? This is where you lose me?
    I know it makes sense to you and might be helpful to others, but you’re not as direct as you think you are. Why not just state in plain words what’s missing?
    Again, why can’t they adjust the strategies to their own situations as you did?

  • Mike C

    I`ve read relationship counselors say that studies show counseling only really helps in 10% of the cases when the relationship is already in trouble.

    I’m not surprised by that stat.

    They say that preventative counseling appear to have a far more positive effect. People I`ve talked to that have done relationship counseling (not that many but a few at least) agreed with that. That being said my mothers friends daughter has turned her relationship from horrible to quite good through counseling and I think it is always worth a shot.

    Of course. Once you are in and presumably committed it makes sense to take every step to try and improve things. My sense, and admittedly this was based on just a few counseling sessions observing the dynamics between the counselor and my parents, it is critical for the counselor to function as an “honest broker” and be willing to tell each person unpleasant things. If the counselor essentially becomes a de facto advocate for one party just to retain the gravy train of continued sessions, then the entire thing is a farce.

    I think one of the keys to avoiding this outcome really is assessing compatibility from the get go. Really, all relationships boil down to some mix of attraction and compatibility. It is unlikely you’ll find someone who is a 10 in both areas so yes you’ll have to “compromise” a bit. I think many people ride the attraction wave, and one day wake up and realize they really are not compatible either in terms of personality, temperament, or life goals. Looking back, I had strong attraction for my first wife, but very little compatibility. Combine that with the fact that I didn’t operate from an abundance mentality at the time and that led down a bad road. FWIW, my first wife was a super extrovert, probably an 11 on the 1 to 10 scale whereas my fiancee is even more introverted than me. This enables me to really draw the distinction between the amount of conflict and lack of conflict related to that particular difference. If I had to guess, I suspect the most problems occur between people who are different on E versus I and T versus F. Reading numerous comments from F types here, I realize I literally cannot comprehend the way they think. It would probably drive me nuts to live with one. In my case, I am an ISTJ leaning close to INTJ (I’ve gotten more N over time) and my fiancee is INTJ. She also defaults to the Captain-First Officer model with almost no pushback at all but I also make it clear I value her thoughts and input. All in all, it makes for a day to day life almost completely free of conflict and argument.

  • Emily

    >> “I won’t be saying anything else about my country men from now on in HUS.”

    :(

    I hope you reconsider. IMO you’ve only ever brought up your experiences on Alpha Island when it’s been relevant/valuable to the discussion. It’s not like you talk incessantly about it and monopolize comment threads with discussion of DR sexual politics.

  • Wudang

    “reckon they’ve achieved an insane level of indifference and they’re the closest Man has ever came(except Jesus Christ etc) to defeat human nature and let go of biological cravings. Porn consumption probably helps a lot.”

    You have no idea. There are techniques used by monks to switch off (and on again) the sex drive. One is to repeatedly over days meditate on visualizing first an attractive women and then focusing on how her body looks internally, her skeleton, her blood, her organs etc. Eventually that turns off the desire because the association between women become the insides of the body not the outer appearance and so the sex drive lacks the on switch which is desire for women and so it shuts off. Women do the same with visualizations of mens bodies. If you want to switch it on again you do the process in reverse. A guy I talked to told me it was scarily effective. He had both turned it off and back on again. Another common technique is to use yogic breathing exercises that redirects the desire. When you feel horny you use the breathing technique and the horniness just changes into an energizing non sexual feeling. As you keep doing it over time eventually the sex drive stops for the most part. Or you can train yourself to just be non reactive and observe sexual impulses with dispassion and this also eventually makes it stop after a while. Even though the techniques work extremely well for the short and medium term, long term there is a strong tendency for the sex drive to rebel and switch itself off which leads to unholy behavior in the shadows or people leaving their monk life to live a normal life again.

  • Alias

    Obsidian,
    When it comes to stating the problems, I can follow your thoughts fine. But, when it comes to finding solutions, what I’m hearing is;
    What about trying this? – No, that won’t work.
    How about trying that? – Nope, that won’t work either!
    How ‘bout… – Nah, that’s not good!
    This is where I get lost. I wish you’d just plainly state what you think might help. Not that other posters here don’t do the same as you do.
    Anyways.. That’s all.

  • Wudang

    MIke C:

    What is T and F?

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias:
    “I suppose that’s true if all white men (the majority demographic) are willing to marry outside of their race, then yeah. The numbers don’t show that unless I’m missing something. Please show me the data.”

    O: I was going by your numbers of the differing Men available to an Asian Woman; 13% total, am I right? If so, that comes out to about 39 million potentially avaiable Men, which ain’t bad, again assuming, they’re all White (your numbers mixed in Asian Men and biracial Asian Men).

    “So? That’s life. Should they just sit back and wait for a husband to land on their laps or should they just give up? This is where you lose me?”

    O: Not at all. Like Buss has said in his books, barring the very few of us in a position to demand outright what we want and get it, the rest of us will have to get in where we fit in. The problem is that we live in a culture where you simply cannot say this to Women, particularly certain types of Women. My community in particular is suffering bigtime from this, and as we have seen several times presented in this forum, this is a problem that has a presence in this demographic as well (the whole “Spinster Lit” phenomenon that Ms. Walsh has identified).

    “I know it makes sense to you and might be helpful to others, but you’re not as direct as you think you are. Why not just state in plain words what’s missing?”

    O: I beg your pardon?

    “Again, why can’t they adjust the strategies to their own situations as you did?”

    O: They can; but a number of variables are involved and have to be taken into account.

    For one thing, I know I can attract Women for whom marriage isn’t *that* big a deal. On the other hand though, some Women may not be able to say that. For another, I have a virtual lock on my target market; depending on the Woman in question, she might find herself competing in a very crowded field.

    Then there’s the fact that I’m fairly unusual as Brothas go; so I know what I bring to the table on a host of measures. The trick is what do these Women bring to the table that makes a Man of their choice wanna cash in his chips? If they’ve got that worked out, great; if not, it’s something to seriously think about. In some ways, many ways, this is a great time to be a guy who’s number one with a bullet, because you can literally write your own ticket. Few if any guys in such a position is gonna cash in before he’s 30, simply because the pickings are too good. I speak at least to some extent, a goodly bit of personal experience here.

    O.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Even though the techniques work extremely well for the short and medium term, long term there is a strong tendency for the sex drive to rebel and switch itself off which leads to unholy behavior in the shadows or people leaving their monk life to live a normal life again.

    Interesting in the celibacy community they advice similar things but they add doing something that creates a mimic of the orgasm effect a huge sudden release of pleasure. Whether by eating a lot, dancing frenetically to release dopamine in a regular basis. I do wonder how it works in the long run adding that. There has been people that managed to succeed obviously.

  • JP

    @Wudang:

    ” Even though the techniques work extremely well for the short and medium term, long term there is a strong tendency for the sex drive to rebel and switch itself off which leads to unholy behavior in the shadows or people leaving their monk life to live a normal life again.”

    This is actually a fascinating aspect of monasticism. Meaning the switching off/on part.

    I’m not sure that Catholic monks do this switchy thing.

  • Iggles

    @ Emily:

    I hope you reconsider. IMO you’ve only ever brought up your experiences on Alpha Island when it’s been relevant/valuable to the discussion. It’s not like you talk incessantly about it and monopolize comment threads with discussion of DR sexual politics.

    I second this sentiment.

    I find your stories and anecdotes interesting, Ana.

    @ O:

    Ms. Walsh, I need to ask you a question:

    Are you going to sit there and tell me that there are no differences between people and that “generalized, cookbook” remedies are going to give the exact same results? Really? My argument, is only that so long as we deny these differences we will not be able to address them.

    Ha!

    That’s not why you were called out today and you know it.

    “I decide which topics will be argued here. I am not interested in your argument about the eating habits of black women, and I do not need to defend my choice to you.”

    O: No, just your choice to allow Ms. Hope to discuss various and sundried aspects of Asian culture (could that have anything to do with the fact that you have an iron in that fire?), or Ms. Anacaona’s early and often references to Dominican culture, often to trash its Men wholesale? Again: why is that OK, but my mention of fellow American citizens, NOT OK, especially given the fact that what obtains in one does indeed inform the other? Please explain?

    What part of Susan’s message to you did you not understand?

    I’ll repeat the relevant part:
    I do not need to defend my choice to you

    You are a guest in Susan’s house, which means you do NOT get to dictate the rules to her. What Hope and Ana say are irrelevant and classic misdirection on your part to change the conversation. To get the spotlight off of you.

    Continuing to harp on negatively black women is straight up trolling, O. We don’t need you to inform us about eating habits or how bleak you believe the dating prospects are for us.

  • JP

    @ Obsidian:

    “Youre able to get some relief from legalized prostitution which we dont have here in the states due in large part to the hypocritical feminist lobby so be glad you have what you have and are not over here.”

    You do realize that prostitution is legal in Nevada, right?

    Anyhow, the age old war against prostitution is generally led by idealist repressionist moralist puritans (American strain) and has very little to do with feminism, as far as I can tell.

  • Alias

    Obsidian
    “13% total, am I right? If so, that comes out to about 39 million potentially avaiable Men”
    ——

    No.
    If my math is correct. (and YOU were talking about getting a workout ha)
    The TOTAL population of eligible people of marriageable age (24-44) of both genders is 26 % of the total pop.
    The sex ratio is roughly 1:1, though it varies by region, so-
    about 13% of the total population of either gender is of marriageable age.
    = Approx 39 million men AND women *combined* of marriageable age.
    Makes about 20 million eligible people from either gender.

    Assuming she has access to all Asian groups alike in that cohort (East Indians, Thai, korean, etc.)-
    4.8 % + 5.6 % of that total= Asians/multiracial Asians, split that down by gender or 5% of the whole = ~ 2 million men
    Add in % of white men that will marry outside their race (assuming they’d all marry any woman of color)
    That’s another 2.3 % of 14 million white men. ~ 300, 000 men
    generously speaking = 2.5 million men available to Hope.

    Compare to the majority demographic
    White women can access 14 million white men + other men from other races willing to marry white women.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I hope you reconsider. IMO you’ve only ever brought up your experiences on Alpha Island when it’s been relevant/valuable to the discussion. It’s not like you talk incessantly about it and monopolize comment threads with discussion of DR sexual politics.

    I second this sentiment.
    I find your stories and anecdotes interesting, Ana.

    Thank you girls. :)
    But if that if I’m going to be used as excuse by O to keep alienating Susan’s commenter/lurkers then I think is worth it to shut up about it.

  • Alias

    Oops.
    Did I get that wrong? I think I did. I’ll have to recheck. Ugh.
    I think I halved the numbers.

  • Mike C

    MIke C:

    What is T and F?

    On the Myers-Brigg categorization, T is thinking and F is feeling. They are the two opposing modes

    E or I – Extrovert or Introvert

    S or N – Sensing or Intuitive

    T or F – Thinking or Feeling

    J or P – Judging or Perceiving

    I don’t know that marriage success or happiness has every been studied correlated against Myers-Brigg personality types, but I suspect it would be quite telling. IIRC, I think Hope has mentioned that both she and her husband are NFs. I get the sense that Ts and Fs communicate in almost different languages.

  • Mike C

    I used the term “productive” to refer to work ethic, and how a person chooses to apply that is another question, which also relates to character. PMOS has nothing to do with income. I certainly do count men on rigs, but one does not need to be noble in order to be a PMOS. Society needs people in business, and law, and health care, and waste management. There are many ways to contribute.

    Well….I’d rather have someone with a shitty work ethic and very “unproductive” if the alternative is that their tremendous work ethic and “productivity” is being put to great effort to cause tremendous damage or essentially just sucking out the value produced by real value generation. I understand it is a difficult question, but you essentially dodged the very relevant issue of what constitutes real productivity in a society benefiting way. One bum drinking booze laying on the beach is less harmful than some super “productive” people in business and law. The point is defining exactly what constitutes a “productive member of society” has some complexity beyond just “hey, I wake up and put in 10-12 hours doing something”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I understand it is a difficult question, but you essentially dodged the very relevant issue of what constitutes real productivity in a society benefiting way.

      Of course a homeless drug addict harms society less than Bernie Madoff. The question of what benefits society is a complex one – does raising taxes on small business owners help or harm the economy? We’re about to find out.

      The number of people in any field – banking, law, real estate, pharma, whatever – that are operating as Lex Luthers is very small.

      It’s not logical to focus your argument on a tiny, if visible, minority.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Alias, those numbers you put out are really interesting! I’ll have to dig more into this. :)

    Mike C, yep, we’re both INFJ, which is relatively rare for men (1.3% of population) and for women (1.6% of population).

    Your fiance being INTJ is 0.8% of females! You’ve got a veritable unicorn. :P

    I’ve written about it before here:

    http://www.rosehope.com/myers-briggs/

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “I beg your pardon?”
    ———
    > That wasn’t meant as an insult. When you resort to all of the inquiry, so that you can better understand where the person’s coming from and lead them to your point- it throws the person off. That’s when you’re misunderstood.

    Roughly 39 million men of all races are of eligible age.
    10% are Asian.
    Most people marry within their race.
    Asks self- why oh why do I get myself involved? sigh

  • Joel

    ”If I’m not mistaken you’re new to HUS? Welcome, you’ve already left some great comments.”

    Thank you, Mrs Walsh. I’m new to the blog, and I’m enjoying your blog quite much.

    ”You do realize that prostitution is legal in Nevada, right?”

    Yeah, but that’s one state. There are dozens of millions of young men who want to have a girlfriend/sex but can’t because of the rampant hypergamy set loose by the hardcore Feminists. That’s something that always confused me. Europe is a cesspool of Feminism with women doing whatever they please(like Swedish women forcing their men to urinate while sitting on the toilet) but even the hardcore feminists from Europe know that it’s quite damaging for society to have young men live sexless lives.

    It reaches the point of young men losing the capacity to have an erection with a real woman after spending their teens and 20′s spanking the monkey to porn.

    Don’t forget that Nevada brothels have the monopoly on prostitution. They can raise the prices to whatever they want the prices to be. In Germany a man can easily spend an entire day with very attractive young women for 200 bucks, so my friends tell me.

    Prostitution is legal in Holland, Germany, and Sweden, with most Euro Countries tolerating Prostitution. I remember visiting Portugal with group of friends. Their most important newspaper has naked women on the front page and 5 or more pages of sex ads.

    I believe that prostitution that isn’t forced(I know women who did it as a part-time to pay for college and they don’t regret it) and is legalized and taken care of can be a great boost for the Countries morale and for the emotional well-being of the young men.

    To satisfy a woman’s nature, a man has to know what he’s doing. That is, he can’t put a woman on a pedestal like most beta males do. Men nowadays are so eager to give commitment to a woman they don’t even allow the woman to qualify her. How can she grow an attraction to the guy when he’s yelling to the world that he’s not worthy of being with her?

    Why do beta males do this? They have little to no sexual experience. No one taught them how to properly throw a rock. Did anyone teach Roosevelt how to be a real man? Yeah, one day his dad watched him cry, told him to man-up and so he did. He took control of the world’s greatest nation and despite of his little size, he was ultra Alpha.

    I see guys who are so diminished by feminism they can’t even look men in the eye. And these guys are well-built and over 6 feet tall! I see manly men acting girly and with pitiful body language as if they’re trying to be invisible. Only the most aggressive approach women and that creates a disparity of supply and demand. Women can’t distinguish a good man/boyfriend/husband and father material from the PUA and from the bad boy because those two are the only ones with the balls to approach women and escalate sexually.

    Sweet lord. Women love sex so why do beta males pussy-foot around creating 10000 reasons to talk to a woman. If a woman doesn’t excuse herself 5 seconds into a conversation she’s clearly open to at least get to know you better. Why ruin your chances with a woman by displaying junior high school inner game?

    Why is the self- esteem of the beta male so low? Can’t live the life of a Casanova? So what? Casanova depended on women to feed his self-esteem. He broke down and developed serious mental health problems at the age of 50 after being turned down by a 16 year old prostitute. Really, is that what you want?

    Do you want a hot babe 7 and upwards? Why don’t you have her? Because you don’t want her. There are far more women in College than there are men going there. And truth be told, most of the women are very attractive. Many can even compete with the Kardashians and are much younger than them! Plus, think of the benefits of going for high value women. No stds, no children, no crazy past boyfriends. Most of them are also low N women.

    Believe me, very attractive women don’t drop their panties as quick as average and attractive women no matter how good-looking they are. They look for men of character, they’re interested in guys with potential and if you are a young man in college you already have an advantage over most young men. Why waste your time becoming master PUA level 100?

    What’s the point of that? Beta males have far less testosterone than Alpha males. It might sound cool to be taller and have more muscle mass than most men, but think of the consequences; much higher chance of dying prematurely, we comprise the majority of the men who end up in jail, we are typically the product of a single mother family unit, we don’t stay in touch with our fathers and most women of high value won’t give us the time of the day.

    Most of the Alpha males from my college/high school/junior high never had a relationship that lasted more than a couple of months. It is fun while you are 20 years old but you won’t look as good in your 40′s and you won’t be able to compete with the younger men. What are you going to do? You’re addicted to women in their 20′s but you can’t pull them.

    Can Alpha males lock-down a hot babe 8-10? Sure, but it has to happen before they turn into manwhores. Women whose SMV is neutral or lower are more than happy to be in a relationship with Alphas, but High SMV women aren’t interested in stds and in men who can’t emotionally bond with women because our brain chemistry has rewired itself and made it impossible for Alpha males to be content with only one woman.

    The irony is that a beta male is far more likely to marry an 8-10 than an Alpha male is. So, what is stopping the beta man from doing it?

    They don’t know how to put forth a masculine demeanor. Women will first pick the skinny, bald, 5’6” Neil Strauss because he’s not afraid to put himself out there and have a jolly good time without expecting sex for being a ”nice guy.”

    They have no sexual prestige because they don’t know how to be men.

    But here’s the thing. Your grandpa reproduced. Your great-grandfather did. Every man in your bloodline managed to do it and I highly doubt every one of those guys was a 13th century Brad Pitt or a Donald Trump.

    Two modifications to our society would undoubtedly make it far easier for young women to feel sexual attraction for the average male; let men see that sex isn’t the marvelous visit to never ending land that the fundamentalist feminists made sex to be, by legalizing prostitution, making it that only willing women work in this field, make it obligatory for the prostitutes to undergo std-testing every month(and their clients also). It’d build self-confidence and personality.

    Or…

    Stop using porn as soon as you enter college. Stop with the compulsory masturbation. Once a week is more than enough. No masturbation if you want to find your inner blend of Alpha/beta. You have no idea how much more success my beta males had after I took their porn away and made it impossible for them to masturbate(heh, don’t ask me how).

    They stopped being lazy and went out there to get some. They met sweet girls and are in relationships now.

    Some tips:

    – Join the Marine.
    – Practice full contact sports.
    - Stop whining.
    - Don’t complain.
    - Leave your god damn xbox and go out, most women aren’t interested in your 1000 achievements on modern warfare 2.
    - Get a job?
    - Leave your parents basement(or at least don’t tell them that you’re a grown-ass man living with your parents).
    -Please, for the love of God, stop wearing low-ride pants and those stupid hats. Dress like a man, you don’t even have to waste a lot of money. Look around for good prices.
    - Stop going for sluts, they’re fun to have sex with but they’re bad for you. Would I date an 20 year old woman whose market value was 10 and she also happened to be low maintenance?

    Sure I would. I’ll probably do it after I get rid of this massive high testosterone rush that I’m experiencing. My dad locked-down such a woman in college, she’s my mother and man, is she a wonderful wife and mother. High SMV women are highly sexual when in a committed relationship, are very dotting and are loyal. They know how to take care of a man, know how to run a house, are great companions and don’t seem to age at all. Look at Mrs. Walsh for proof.

    My mother got a good man from the marriage and my father got a 10 value woman, I inherited my dad’s built and height and my sisters inherited my mothers looks; both my sisters married at the age of 22 as virgins and the guys they married are now very valuable members of our community.

    I repeat. Don’t bother with the sluts. As a 15/17 year old boy, that’s fine. Get it out of the system. College is for LTR/marriage, it’s not for sexual exploration.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Of course a homeless drug addict harms society less than Bernie Madoff. The question of what benefits society is a complex one

    I think the issue is that many of this things need time to show up and be carefully analyzed a bum might have a 0 quotient of societal productivity, a drug addict that commits crime to keep his vice would go into unproductive and harmful and an honest businessperson that generates jobs and money will start being on + side.
    Now what if this is the same man?
    He started as drug addict, went into some years of cleaning himself up and was a bum meanwhile and then found a way to contribute with society with his own business if we were to quantify it would he was more productive than unproductive? If he died 4 years after starting his business and went bankruptcy as a result is still counts? Complex issue that is not static of course. Do we have any scientific “measure” for societal productivity?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      If he died 4 years after starting his business and went bankruptcy as a result is still counts? Complex issue that is not static of course. Do we have any scientific “measure” for societal productivity?

      There’s no standard, as far as I know. And you’re right – there’s always redemption. Rather than focusing on the quantifiable output for one individual, I think that it’s more useful to focus on the intent of the person, and whether they prioritize contributing rather than skimming off others.

  • Joel

    Sorry for the typos.

  • Alias

    @ Anacaona, Hope

    How are the babies?
    Hoping their doing well.
    Tip- double up on your cooking and freeze food for those first few days/weeks- you’ll be glad.

    Yes, Hope, i was thinking about the #s, given that only 1 % of the population is of Chinese descent. Don’t know what the #s of interAsian marriages are (I don’t even know if that’s a word at this point, lol- I mean Asians marrying Asians other ethnicities/nationalities)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know Hope is having her baby September 9. Anacaona, what is your due date?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Alias
    Baby is doing fine kicking mom almost all day. :D

    Tip- double up on your cooking and freeze food for those first few days/weeks- you’ll be glad.

    I already armed myself with plenty of containers. I’m going to start my cookout at the end of September when I take my maternity leave. My inloves are going to stay with us for the first week or so too, to help and my MIL is a great cook so there is always plan B. ;)
    Thanks for asking, :D

  • Sassy6519

    @ Alias

    UMC black women and obesity- I haven’t read the Black Women’s Studies or anything, but it’s obvious to the naked eye that obesity is much more prevalent in the lower classes, regardless of race.

    Exactly.

    I for one have never disputed a bigger (pardon the pun) impact of weight gain/obesity on the lower end of the SES scale; what I was directly challenging in terms of Ms. Sassy and Ms. J’s arguments, among others, is the notion that Black Women at the middle and UMC levels didn’t have weight issues either. Clearly, this is not true, though I will freely concede that they may have less of it than their lower SES Sistas. This is why my mention of the Black Women’s Health Study becomes so important and vital to the discussion.

    1. None of the women here ever tried to argue that there are no overweight/obese black people. We never argued that at all..

    2. As for the Black Women’s Health Study, I found something very interesting. Here is a link to the article.

    http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=8010792c-0707-4ad9-9c38-207ba1c4fbcf%40sessionmgr111&vid=2&hid=110

    From pages 239-240:

    Obesity is common in US black women.4–6 In the
    present study, 33.5% of college-educated women
    under age 40 who did not have hypertension were
    overweight or severely overweight, and the proportion
    increased to 45.4% among those aged 50–69
    years. The comparable proportions among women
    with 12 or fewer years of education were even
    greater, 41.8% and 50.5%, respectively. Only a
    small proportion of the Black Women’s Health
    Study participants were overweight at age 18, based
    on their self-reports. Thus, it appears that large
    weight gains occurred later, in accord with data
    from other studies.4,5 The weight gains among
    women in the present study were smaller among
    college-educated than among less educated women.

    So, only 33.5% of college educated black women under age 40 are overweight or obese. That leaves 66.5% of college educated black women who are not overweight or obese. There is also a significant difference between the obesity rates of college educated black women and non college educated black women.

    So, how does this study that you keep referencing not support my claims? Even the evidence that you bring up is in my favor. It’s laughable.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Iggles:
    *Quoting me*:Are you going to sit there and tell me that there are no differences between people and that “generalized, cookbook” remedies are going to give the exact same results? Really? My argument, is only that so long as we deny these differences we will not be able to address them.

    “Ha!

    That’s not why you were called out today and you know it.”

    O: You’re right; was called out for saying in the broad daylight what everyone else can clearly see with one good eye. Nor does what I asked above irrelevant. I can lay it out for you some more if like. ;)

    “What part of Susan’s message to you did you not understand?

    I’ll repeat the relevant part:
    I do not need to defend my choice to you”

    O: This: “No, just your choice to allow Ms. Hope to discuss various and sundried aspects of Asian culture (could that have anything to do with the fact that you have an iron in that fire?), or Ms. Anacaona’s early and often references to Dominican culture, often to trash its Men wholesale? Again: why is that OK, but my mention of fellow American citizens, NOT OK, especially given the fact that what obtains in one does indeed inform the other? Please explain?”

    “You are a guest in Susan’s house, which means you do NOT get to dictate the rules to her. What Hope and Ana say are irrelevant and classic misdirection on your part to change the conversation. To get the spotlight off of you.”

    O: Not at all; I am attempting to see what the consistency is here. If it’s about being consistent, then ANY mention of Chinese or Dominican culture, mores etc, is OFF TOPIC by definition, because they don’t deal with purpose of the forum; yet these topics are heard early and often here. ONLY when I bring in the lives of fellow American citizens, does it become a problem. I have every right to question the basis, and Ms. Walsh has every right to ignore it, and me. *shrugs*

    “Continuing to harp on negatively black women is straight up trolling, O.”

    O: Yea, just like Ms. Ion, for example, did the exact same thing wrt Black Men – and this was completely cool with Ms. Walsh. I’m good with it too so long as I can say what again, we all know is true if you spend any time outside and have at least one good eye. EVERYTHING I said was proofed by longitudinal studies, cutting edge, really. We can say we don’t want to hear it, it’s off-topic, etc. Cool. But you can’t say it’s wrong. It is not. *shrugs*

    “We don’t need you to inform us about eating habits or how bleak you believe the dating prospects are for us.”

    O: I never made any such argument; per the US Census most Black Women pair off just fine.

    :)

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Sassy & Ms. Alias:
    “@ Alias

    UMC black women and obesity- I haven’t read the Black Women’s Studies or anything, but it’s obvious to the naked eye that obesity is much more prevalent in the lower classes, regardless of race.

    Exactly.”

    O: So what. I never argued otherwise.

    *Quoting me*:I for one have never disputed a bigger (pardon the pun) impact of weight gain/obesity on the lower end of the SES scale; what I was directly challenging in terms of Ms. Sassy and Ms. J’s arguments, among others, is the notion that Black Women at the middle and UMC levels didn’t have weight issues either. Clearly, this is not true, though I will freely concede that they may have less of it than their lower SES Sistas. This is why my mention of the Black Women’s Health Study becomes so important and vital to the discussion.

    “1. None of the women here ever tried to argue that there are no overweight/obese black people. We never argued that at all..”

    O: Yes, you’re right. What you attempted to argue was that it was a “class thing” which is…wait for it…

    NOT. TRUE.

    “2. As for the Black Women’s Health Study, I found something very interesting. Here is a link to the article.”

    O: Hit me with your best shot, sister!

    “So, only 33.5% of college educated black women under age 40 are overweight or obese. That leaves 66.5% of college educated black women who are not overweight or obese. There is also a significant difference between the obesity rates of college educated black women and non college educated black women.”

    O: “33.5%” is quite a sizable number. I tell you what – could you function with 33.5% less lung capacity? Hmm? What if you lost 33.5% of your liver? Or you got your paycheck next week and 33.5% was missing – would you be good with that? As far as I know, there’s only one person in this forum who went on record as saying that he could stand to lose 35% of something without blinking…in any area of your life that you deem important, can you say that? The above comment by you supports my premise – that this is an issue that cuts across SES lines. Period.

    “So, how does this study that you keep referencing not support my claims?”

    O: It doesn’t because there are indeed college educated Black Women who have weight problems. That’s how. I never said that it was absolute either way. My argument was that it was something that cuts across SES levels. You and Ms. J attempted to argue otherwise.

    “Even the evidence that you bring up is in my favor.”

    O: Not quite; see above.

    “It’s laughable.”

    O: Yes, you most certainly are.

    :)

    O.

  • JP

    @Obsidian:

    ” If it’s about being consistent, then ANY mention of Chinese or Dominican culture, mores etc, is OFF TOPIC by definition, because they don’t deal with purpose of the forum; yet these topics are heard early and often here. ONLY when I bring in the lives of fellow American citizens, does it become a problem.”

    The general purpose of this forum would appear to be in the realm of cultural anthropology/evolutionary psychology, so the Chinese and Dominican cultural issues would appear to be reasonably on topic.

  • Mike C

    The question of what benefits society is a complex one

    Yes it is. Not to mention the difficulty in defining the measuring criteria. Which really is my exact point. Like many other things, you wanted to create a binary system where we put people into either the “unproductive” box or the “productive” box. I’m simply highlighting that isn’t a simple question to answer. It’s probably much easier to identify unproductive, but “productive” can be masked under alot of meaningless activity.

    The number of people in any field – banking, law, real estate, pharma, whatever – that are operating as Lex Luthers is very small.

    True, but that doesn’t even focus on the great mediocre middle. Thought experiment. I go outside every day 5 days a week and spend 6 hours digging a hole. I then spend the next 6 hours refilling the hole with the dirt I dug up such that it looks the same as I started. Am I being “productive”?

    It’s not logical to focus your argument on a tiny, if visible, minority.

    Actually, as a general principle, if you want to prove that all swans are not white, you just have to find one black swan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Like many other things, you wanted to create a binary system where we put people into either the “unproductive” box or the “productive” box.

      Astoundingly, my kids know exactly what I mean by PMOS and UMOS. It’s about living a life of purpose, and adding to the greater good. It’s about giving rather than taking. I have found that distinguishing right from wrong, selfish from giving, and productive from unproductive is an excellent way to raise children.

      Actually, as a general principle, if you want to prove that all swans are not white, you just have to find one black swan.

      So you’re trying to prove, what? That all shiftless men are not unproductive? Or that some immoral men are productive? I’ve never claimed otherwise. It is possible to be productive and bad. It is not possible to be unproductive and good.

  • Sassy6519

    Yes, you’re right. What you attempted to argue was that it was a “class thing” which is…wait for it…

    NOT. TRUE.

    It is mostly a class issue. I have provided numerous links that show that it is a class issue. I supported my claim with 7 different scientific articles, all saying the same thing. Once again, if you have a problem with the information I have provided, take it up with the authors. I am merely providing information.

    33.5%” is quite a sizable number. I tell you what – could you function with 33.5% less lung capacity? Hmm? What if you lost 33.5% of your liver? Or you got your paycheck next week and 33.5% was missing – would you be good with that? As far as I know, there’s only one person in this forum who went on record as saying that he could stand to lose 35% of something without blinking…in any area of your life that you deem important, can you say that? The above comment by you supports my premise – that this is an issue that cuts across SES lines. Period.

    33.5% is the minority. The large majority of college educated black women are not overweight or obese. Also, I never said that obesity doesn’t affect people of all socio-economic statuses. I stated that the effects differ by socio-economic status. Don’t lump my arguments with those of other people. Once again, I never said that. The vast majority of obese individuals are of low socio-economic status, regardless of race.

    It doesn’t because there are indeed college educated Black Women who have weight problems. That’s how. I never said that it was absolute either way. My argument was that it was something that cuts across SES levels. You and Ms. J attempted to argue otherwise.

    I never argued that. I stated that SES is a better predictor of obesity than race, which it is. That fact has been documented by hundreds of studies. Why do you choose to ignore the multitude of scientific studies stacked in my favor?

    Yes, you most certainly are.

    Uh huh, like anything you say at this point can be taken seriously.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh:
    “She appears to be very high T. She has strong, large features, and she’s pretty hirsute. She’s also white but only hooks up with black men, FWIW.”

    O: Wait a minute –

    What are you saying above, Ms. Walsh? That the Woman in question that Wudang mentioned, has some kind of higher biochemical thing happening, *that accounts for her romantic/sexual choice of partners*?

    If so, what does say for the general proposition of HBD? It would appear from your statement above, that you seem to be at least in some agreement with it…?

    *zeroes in camera for response*

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What are you saying above, Ms. Walsh? That the Woman in question that Wudang mentioned, has some kind of higher biochemical thing happening, *that accounts for her romantic/sexual choice of partners*?

      Some studies show that masculinity in women is correlated to unrestricted sociosexuality. This is just one anecdote – hardly scientific proof. But the woman in question is both very male in her presentation and very much able to compartmentalize sex and emotion. It is interesting, but anecdotal evidence is not sufficient proof of anything.

  • Meer

    @Jackie

    Thanks for the tips and encouragement ^^

    As for self-respect–it’s hard to gai nwhen you have trouble regulating emotions.

    But the What Women Never Hear blog gave me some suggestions.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh:
    “Nonsense, your personal experience is always valid here. You’re not dealing in rumor, you share things you’ve observed first-hand.”

    O: But I’m talking about things I too have observed firsthand; why is one legit and other is not?

    Please explain?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obsidian

      O: But I’m talking about things I too have observed firsthand; why is one legit and other is not?

      Anacaona is not personally pressuring DR males to explain the behavior of their compadres. You, OTOH, are demanding explanations and perhaps some sort of mea culpa (?) from black women here, even though not one is guilty of the behaviors you deride.

  • Meer

    @ susan

    LOL you cracked me up–that’s adorable–you drew it yourself??

    haha awesoem that you drew for descriptive purposes

    @ kirk

    But yes, that is what I meant, I suppose.

    I often see some asian guys and brown men with the kind of shape I originally meant (not being racist, just the shape is more often observed in those ethnicities–and I do know white guys with that shape, too).

    Usually it’s a product of not being in shape–so I don’t think you have anything to worry about, kirk. As long as your bum doesn’t overwhelm your chest lol

    It’s not even so much the pear shape–but more the wobbly apple shape?

    where the shoulders are narrow and the hips may OR may not be wider–but there is some blubber in the midsection and so the overall look lacks ….strength. if you know what I mean, cus I know I’m describing in qualitative ways….>.<

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Sassy:
    “It is mostly a class issue.”

    O: Even if we were to follow your argument, “most” IS. NOT. ALL. So either way you wanna slice it sis, it is, what it is-Black Women as a group now, do indeed have a weight problem. That’s all I was saying.

    “I have provided numerous links that show that it is a class issue.”

    O: And I have provided the definitive longitudinal study that points to the FACT that a considerable minority of college educated, solidly middle to UMC Black Women, have weight problems, too. *shrugs*

    “I supported my claim with 7 different scientific articles, all saying the same thing.”

    O: Yes, one of them citing the very logitudinal, cutting edge study I’ve been talking about the entire time. *The scene from the first Iron Man scene, where Tony Stark demonstrates his latest missle to the Army comes to mind…*

    “Once again, if you have a problem with the information I have provided, take it up with the authors. I am merely providing information.”

    O: I have no problem in the least with said “information”, especially since the last one you cited goes right to my point. Thank you! :)

    “33.5% is the minority.”

    O: You didn’t answer my question. Let’s try this again, shall we?

    *33.5%” is quite a sizable number. I tell you what – could you function with 33.5% less lung capacity? Hmm? What if you lost 33.5% of your liver? Or you got your paycheck next week and 33.5% was missing – would you be good with that? As far as I know, there’s only one person in this forum who went on record as saying that he could stand to lose 35% of something without blinking…in any area of your life that you deem important, can you say that?*

    Well, Ms. Sassy? Your response this time?

    “The large majority of college educated black women are not overweight or obese.”

    O: I never argued that they were. What I argued was that the weight piece cut across SES lines, which the last study you linked to and specifically mentioned the BWHS, supported – to the tune of a whopping 33.5%. :)

    “Also, I never said that obesity doesn’t affect people of all socio-economic statuses. I stated that the effects differ by socio-economic status. Don’t lump my arguments with those of other people. Once again, I never said that. The vast majority of obese individuals are of low socio-economic status, regardless of race.”

    O: You specifically cosigned what Ms. J said, which was that in her locality the only Black Women she observed with weight problems were those of a lower SES level. Even if both of you were correct, the BWHS says otherwise. This is why we don’t do personal anecdote, right?

    “The large majority of college educated black women are not overweight or obese.”

    O: So? A formidable minority of them are – hence again my point, that the weight issue among Black Women is one that cuts across SES lines.

    “I never argued that. I stated that SES is a better predictor of obesity than race, which it is. That fact has been documented by hundreds of studies. Why do you choose to ignore the multitude of scientific studies stacked in my favor?”

    O: Because a sizable minority of Black Women from the very same SES cohort you are talking about, do indeed have weight problems. That’s why.

    “Uh huh, like anything you say at this point can be taken seriously.”

    O: I’m not the one trying to seriously argue that a third of anything ain’t no thang, sister…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      O: I’m not the one trying to seriously argue that a third of anything ain’t no thang, sister…

      A third is not a basis on which to make general statements about an entire population. At best, it’s a sizable minority. You should preface all of your statements with this. “A minority of black women….”

  • Meer

    @Obsidian

    lol what do you mean by fried rice??

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @JP #503:
    “The general purpose of this forum would appear to be in the realm of cultural anthropology/evolutionary psychology, so the Chinese and Dominican cultural issues would appear to be reasonably on topic.”

    O: If indeed that’s true, then why is what I’m saying off-topic? I mean, wouldn’t what I’m saying, which has to do with American citizens, be much more immediately relevant, that people hundreds or even thousands of miles away? Isn’t it as every bit informed along “cultural anthropology/evolutionary psychology” lines as the Chinese/Domincan piece? If not, how…and why? What’s the basis?

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If indeed that’s true, then why is what I’m saying off-topic?

      Both Anacaona and Hope draw from a wide range of experiences, conversations, research and other written materials to support their extremely varied points. You only sing one note, hammering relentlessly to make the same point repeatedly. Where they always relate their comments to the discussion at hand, you constantly introduce your pet topics regardless of where the thread is headed.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Alias 493:
    “That wasn’t meant as an insult. When you resort to all of the inquiry, so that you can better understand where the person’s coming from and lead them to your point- it throws the person off. That’s when you’re misunderstood.

    Roughly 39 million men of all races are of eligible age.
    10% are Asian.
    Most people marry within their race.
    Asks self- why oh why do I get myself involved? sigh”

    O: LOL. I think the fact that Asian Women have among, if not thee, highest IR marital rate in American society and this has held constant for easily several decades running, is indeed something that needs to be looked at a bit more closely. I recall Ms. Hope giving what she thought accounted for at least some of that, which I found fascinating myself. At any rate, science is going to hash all this out, and faster than we think; if we aren’t even able to discuss it without chimping out, we’re not going to be able to really deal with any of this once the jury’s in…

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    You specifically cosigned what Ms. J said, which was that in her locality the only Black Women she observed with weight problems were those of a lower SES level. Even if both of you were correct, the BWHS says otherwise. This is why we don’t do personal anecdote, right?

    Once again, I said no such thing. Here is the direct quote.

    I’ve seen the same things. Most of the solidly middle or UMC black women I know are in great shape, myself included.

    I was curious, so I did a bit of research, and here are some studies I’ve found about the topic. It seems that, once again, SES is a much bigger and better predictor of weight than race.

    That’s what I said, and it is correct. I said that most of the high SES black women I know are not overweight or obese. The data backs that up. I never said that I don’t know any obese high SES black women, but they are in the minority. According to the BWHS, 66.5% of college-educated black women, a considerable majority, are not overweight or obese. I never ever said that there are no obese high SES black women. Someone else may have stated that, but I never did.

    Because a sizable minority of Black Women from the very same SES cohort you are talking about, do indeed have weight problems. That’s why

    I don’t know why that’s relevant. I never claimed that there isn’t a population of obese high SES black women. The fact that the 33.5% is the minority coincides with what I have been talking about the entire time. SES and education level have significant impacts on obesity. For all races, high SES and high education level correlate with lower rates of obesity. To claim that I have argued anything otherwise is incorrect.

    Someone else may have argued or stated something differently, but I surely didn’t.

    33.5%” is quite a sizable number. I tell you what – could you function with 33.5% less lung capacity? Hmm? What if you lost 33.5% of your liver? Or you got your paycheck next week and 33.5% was missing – would you be good with that? As far as I know, there’s only one person in this forum who went on record as saying that he could stand to lose 35% of something without blinking…in any area of your life that you deem important, can you say that?*

    I’m not losing anything if 33.5% of high SES black women are obese. I can only control my eating habits and my own weight. Considering that I’m a vegetarian and am in great shape, I don’t have anything to worry about.

    I could lose 33.5% of any debt that I have, and I wouldn’t care at all. :)

  • J

    My inloves are going to stay with us for the first week or so too, to help and my MIL is a great cook so there is always plan B.

    Cutest Freudian slip ever! I can only hope that one day some girl refers to me as her mother-in-love.

  • UnfairlyBooted

    Hey guys, if my comments are not appearing…does that mean Susan has banned or moderated me?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Meer

      Your comments were held in moderation because I deleted one earlier for racist content.

  • Alias

    Obsidian:
    “I think the fact that Asian Women have among, if not thee, highest IR marital rate in American society and this has held constant for easily several decades running, is indeed something that needs to be looked at a bit more closely.”
    ———-
    > Doesn’t this make what Hope writes relevant?
    That’s why I don’t understand why you undermine what she writes.
    Asians in aggregate are *still* using long-term strategies (–> marriage because they deem it important) while other groups are using short-term strategies.
    ____________

    O: “I recall Ms. Hope giving what she thought accounted for at least some of that, which I found fascinating myself. “
    —–
    > Fascinating? Why?
    Is it because you’ve never heard of this stuff before?

  • Alias

    Obsidan:
    “At any rate, science is going to hash all this out, and faster than we think; if we aren’t even able to discuss it without chimping out, we’re not going to be able to really deal with any of this once the jury’s in…”
    ——-
    Why do we need science to tell us that when some cultures/parents/groups-
    -oppose if one has a string of bfs parading the house
    -have a conniption if you move in with a guy
    -ask when you’re going to get married or when you’re going to have babies (within a marriage)
    -expect you to not sleep around or
    -disown you if you have a kid OOW.
    - etc, etc.
    that most of their kids will abide by those rules?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    There’s no standard, as far as I know. And you’re right – there’s always redemption. Rather than focusing on the quantifiable output for one individual, I think that it’s more useful to focus on the intent of the person, and whether they prioritize contributing rather than skimming off others.

    Not so sure intention should be the biggest measure as a veteran of Jezebel all those feminists that delay marriage over career intent to be rich and powerful and work on non-profit and help women’s causes and so on at the end of the day most of them end up buried in debt in paper shifting jobs and all sort of time issues that don’t allow them to do anything but survive like most people. I mean in the end most people think they are productive members of society or that they are going to be but there is very few ways to actually be productive.
    The basic should be something along the lines of: If I were to put in one side all my contributions to society to date or/and using the average age of death (I think is 78 on USA) and in the other all that I take from society in the same time period which one will be more? If you consume more than you produce then you are a burden/parasite/unproductive if you are in the middle (and I suspect this is probably the majority) then you are neither productive or unproductive if you are more productive then you are more valuable than any of the others.
    Of course this is just one aspect if you produce cigarettes/junk food/Reality TV… even if you generate a lot of money, income and employment the consequences of your production is more negative than positive for the society you live in, so the product should factor on the concept of productivity.

    Cutest Freudian slip ever! I can only hope that one day some girl refers to me as her mother-in-love.

    I actually did it un purpose I’m trying to make it a meme, so feel free to steal it. :D

    I know Hope is having her baby September 9. Anacaona, what is your due date?

    October 15 which is my daddy’s birthday the kid is already breaking havoc in the family. Yep he has my blood alright :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      If you consume more than you produce then you are a burden/parasite/unproductive if you are in the middle (and I suspect this is probably the majority) then you are neither productive or unproductive if you are more productive then you are more valuable than any of the others.

      That sounds good to me if we could find a way to measure it.

      October 15 which is my daddy’s birthday the kid is already breaking havoc in the family. Yep he has my blood alright

      I’m October 17, so I will be rooting for that :) Libra is a very nice sign to have.

  • INTJ

    @ Joel

    Wow! Going for higher attractiveness is very counterintuitive but I think you might be right. I’ll shoot for the 8-10s instead of 5-7s that I planned to go for.

    Unlike with Game, I can actually feel comfortable using this strategy.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan #415
    I lol’ed when your post made me realize that Kirk actually may have seen a shirt supporting the Greek organization Alpha Phi Alpha. Things can certainly be a matter of perspective. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RWC

      I lol’ed when your post made me realize that Kirk actually may have seen a shirt supporting the Greek organization Alpha Phi Alpha.

      I thought it sounded very odd that your average woman would even be tuned in to alpha vs. beta. So I googled – it turns out American Apparel has a line that apparently references Greek organizations.

  • Just a thought

    Obsidian, what have black women done to you?
    For goodness sake, of course black women have a weight problem, all Americans have a weight problem. Why do you insist on talking about it over and over and over again? You made your point once. I’m bored, spread your illuminating light of knowledge on something else.

    Your post about realizing that the black women available exceed black men by whole football fields is true. This leads me to a more interesting conclusion. I think that men may actually be getting a better deal than I previously thought. Here’s my theory, after the sexual market revolution, many men realized ” why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free” and decided to become alphas with whole harems of women. This left many beta men in their 20s sexless and depressed. In their 30s women prized commitment over bad-boy alphaness and started dating beta men. This meant that often a woman who was an 8 or 9 in terms of attractiveness started dating down to a 7 ,6, ( maybe not 5 ) beta male. The beta man was thrilled that he could get such a high value girl and pedestalized her. The girl was disgusted with her husbands display of betaness, the pedestalizing and dealing with the fact taht she never really wanted a man like him in the first place. she got disgusted and divorced him.

  • Just a thought

    For all the literature about PUA’s telling women to settle, I think settling just goes against women’s biological impulses. Maybe a woman could compromise on her obsessive list of wants, but marrying down for many woman will make them miserable. I saw such an example two days ago when I went to the wedding of a woman who was a family friend. She was tall, well-shaped and pretty. Her husband was fat and unattractive. She married a man who went to a worse college than she did. She is a black woman and looked to her two older sisters who were nearing their 30s and not married. She settled.
    Throughout the wedding, her eyes looked dead. When he went to kiss her at the altar she asked for just a peck on the cheek. She rarely ever looked at him, the man who she had given her life to. On the other hand, her husband looked as if he had won a prize. I kept wondering whether the man realized what he had brought home and whether the woman could ever be happy in such a marriage.
    What I learned: The only benefit of settling is that it gives you a sperm donor and some extra cash. But if you want your husband to be something more,you shouldn’t settle.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan
    “Are you aware that Obsidian has a blog? I wonder why he doesn’t make his arguments there…”

    One cannot troll one’s *own* blog.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    “I’m sure the Ancient Romans didn’t appreciate the collapse of their Civilization, but it happened anyway as nothing can really last forever. Why bother with it, when it’s already inevitable.”

    Civilization collapsing is one of those “Very Very Bad” things we don’t want to happen.

  • INTJ

    @ Just a thought

    Your post about realizing that the black women available exceed black men by whole football fields is true. This leads me to a more interesting conclusion. I think that men may actually be getting a better deal than I previously thought. Here’s my theory, after the sexual market revolution, many men realized ” why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free” and decided to become alphas with whole harems of women. This left many beta men in their 20s sexless and depressed. In their 30s women prized commitment over bad-boy alphaness and started dating beta men. This meant that often a woman who was an 8 or 9 in terms of attractiveness started dating down to a 7 ,6, ( maybe not 5 ) beta male. The beta man was thrilled that he could get such a high value girl and pedestalized her. The girl was disgusted with her husbands display of betaness, the pedestalizing and dealing with the fact taht she never really wanted a man like him in the first place. she got disgusted and divorced him.

    How is marrying a reformed slut before getting divorced by her a good deal for men?

  • Just a thought

    Well, what I meant to say INTJ is this
    1. Alphas are getting a great deal. I think the amount of alphas has actually increased in this culture and PUA’s like Roissy prey on women, collecting vaginas like others collect 1950′s memorabilia.
    2. Betas marriages are actually collapsing because they get too much of a good deal. Pedestalizing isn’t something men do naturally, it mostly occurs when you are dating out of your league. For example, visualize a SMV 4 girl. Now visualize a SMV 9 girl. Which one is easier to pedestalize? If more betas were dating within their league , i.e 5 marrying 5′s and 8′s marrying 8′s, there would be less pedestalizing. Even more, it is pedestalizing and not being willing to assert themselves about what they need that destroys beta marriages.
    So the sexual revolution has given men too much of a good deal, in this way, and they are suffering for it.
    Do you see the angle I’m coming from?

  • Mike C

    It’s about living a life of purpose, and adding to the greater good.

    I’m with you 110% right there. Anyways, I had very limited narrow point I was making which is that in fact some people who might be characterized as “productive” IN FACT do not add to the greater good. I think you are smart enough to know exactly what I mean especially with the examples I’ve given but I know you enjoy the verbal jousting with me :)

    Actually, as a general principle, if you want to prove that all swans are not white, you just have to find one black swan.

    So you’re trying to prove, what?

    That your use of the term logical in that point was incorrect. Nothing more.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . I think you are smart enough to know exactly what I mean especially with the examples I’ve given but I know you enjoy the verbal jousting with me

      Busted.

  • Joe

    @Just A Though

    Alphas are getting a great deal.

    Betas marriages are actually collapsing because they get too much of a good deal.

    So, you’re saying men in general are getting a great deal, Alphas before marriage and Betas after. Am I interpreting you right?

    Lemme take a pole here. Gentlemen? Do you feel like you’re getting a great deal?

    Oh, wait – wait. Maybe your “feelings” about it don’t matter. Maybe it’s subjective things, like – lemme see now – who pays for dates before marriage. Or who pays alimony after.

    No, no, wait. Sometimes maybe you don’t have to pay. So you can’t go by that. Maybe it’s about who’s got to make the effort to take that first step and do the asking or do the proposing. That’s not really so hard to do. Right? Maybe, guys, before you vote, we all have to consider who’s hurting more after getting all those rejections.

    Gee, JAT. I guess it’s a tie after all.

    Sorry. Snark button got stuck there for a moment.

  • Kathy

    “I’m October 17, so I will be rooting for that Libra is a very nice sign to have”

    We Aussies always get a kick out of the way you guys are always rooting. Especially for your football teams. ;)

    http://australiandictionary.net/root

    I have a juvenile sense of humour, sorry Susan. :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kathy

      We Aussies always get a kick out of the way you guys are always rooting.

      Haha, that’s hilarious! I hope you’ll introduce us to more Aussie slang!

  • Iggles

    @ Just a thought:

    If more betas were dating within their league , i.e 5 marrying 5′s and 8′s marrying 8′s, there would be less pedestalizing. Even more, it is pedestalizing and not being willing to assert themselves about what they need that destroys beta marriages.
    So the sexual revolution has given men too much of a good deal, in this way, and they are suffering for it.
    Do you see the angle I’m coming from?

    I totally get what you’re saying and I agree.

    It’s too much of a “good” thing.

    @ Joe:

    Lemme take a pole here. Gentlemen? Do you feel like you’re getting a great deal?

    Just a thought is arguing that balance of power in the SMP is out of whack, so men have a greater selection of women than they used to have. Alpha men can get their fill of sexual variety and some Beta men are marrying women of higher SMV (i.e., punching about their weight).

    Just like with too much sugar, there are drawbacks when you have to much of anything. In this case, assortive mating used to provide a balanced SMP & MMP where mates with comparable numbers paired off. More people got married, and the marriages were much more stable.

    Instead, today the “gains” men have made have come with a price. Players & cads play the field until they have trouble pulling attractive women. When/if they decide to settle down they do so much later and many have problems bonding to one woman at that point. Meanwhile, many marriage-minded men are marrying women who either “settled” for them or who they feel they don’t deserve (so they end up pedestalizing their wives and poisoning the relationship). Both are problematic, though in both cases men are “cleaning up” with women on a superficial level.

  • Just a thought

    Joe, look, as a woman I’m not going to pretend to understand what men go through, but I sympathize with your frustrations.
    1. I think alimony is ridiculous. It’s a stupid concept that needs to go.
    2. As for date paying, men often pay for dates to establish that it is a date. One guy I know went to get coffee with a girl he liked. He paid for her coffee to establish it as a date. While I don’t think men should pay for dates and whatnot, this is something that men like/feel like they should do. For example, one time I tried to reverse the trend by opening a door for a guy. He was angry with me. If you don’t want to pay for dates, don’t. As Roissy explains, it doesn’t help you with girls.
    3. Who takes the first steps, I wrote a post in page 1 about why girls almost never take the first step in dating. Hint: It’s not because we are lazy/ don’t want to. It’s because men sometimes actively shame women who ask men out as too manly/ stalker creepy. If men want girls to start asking them out, then make it okay for us to do so. But you might want to beware that waiting for women to ask you out and waiting for women to propose marriage will cause you to cede a lot of power. Right now men control the marriage and the LTR market, both advantages that would vanish in a flash if women started proposing and asking out men. Caveat emptor.

    Now to deal with what I said in my post, what I’m arguing is that men are dealing with the aftereffects of having too much of a good thing.
    1. Do you agree that PUA’s / top alphas are having a great time of life?
    2. Do you agree that when a SMV 5 man marries an SMV 7 woman, he is getting a great deal? He is getting to procreate with a higher mate than he previously would have.
    I would argue that pedestalization is a symptom of the disease which is
    men are actually getting too much of a good deal from the sexual market today.

  • Just a thought

    wow, Iggles, thank you.
    You explained me before I got to it. My post is now repitition.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That sounds good to me if we could find a way to measure it.

    Yeah that is the problem probably no social scientist will touch this with a tent foot pole given that it clashes with the “cult of the individual” But who knows one day someone might want to tap on the ugly side of freedom, time will tell.

    I’m October 17, so I will be rooting for that Libra is a very nice sign to have.

    Heh daddy and I got along better than me and my Virgo Introvert mother. I’m an Extrovert Piscis, frankly is a miracle we didn’t murdered each other. Hubby is a Leo, BTW.

    We Aussies always get a kick out of the way you guys are always rooting. Especially for your football teams.

    Hubby linked me to a site about what foreigners find more strange on USA and someone mentioned “How excited gringos are for everything” yeah the word excited is kind of used for everything here I was confused at first but now I’m sort of getting it, I’m still not gringa enough to use it but I’m getting there. ;)

  • unigirl

    Apologies for dragging the thread backwards again, but see @anonymous beta’s comment’s higher up are what scare me, that potentially a man use my higher number as an excuse to justify his cheating to himself or something, I know what will be will be, but honestly if that were the case I’d rather opt out.

  • Kathy

    Unigirl, have a bit of empathy and compassion here.

    The poor guy had a low sperm count!

    How the hell do you think that made him feel?

    Then his wife throws it back in his face ?

    Not the right thing to do.

    Okay she was upset, but she should have been more understanding.. She was abusive and nasty!
    It was a completely selfish response..

    As was yours.

  • unigirl

    That’s not what I meant, to have a dig at him or anything, if you mean selfish by bringing it back to myself then perhaps you’re right. The comment just brought to mind some of my own worries, the other factors involved in his situation aside.

  • unigirl

    Also I’m not denying that she’s behaved badly or that I don’t understand his thought processes in making the decision (not that I necessarily agree just that I understand why), but if her having a higher number than him wasn’t a factor in deciding to cheat he wouldn’t have mentioned it, this is what I’m concerned about.

  • Abbot

    “a man use my higher number as an excuse to justify his cheating”

    Women: watch. those. numbers.

  • unigirl

    I’m just curious Abbot, I know how you feel about female promiscuity, and I understand it can cause problems, but do you think it justifies cheating within the relationship (if a man had not avoided getting into it like you advise?) For the record I don’t, obviously it might be said I’m biased there, but I can honestly say I wouldn’t have said any different anyway.

  • Abbot

    “justifies cheating within the relationship”

    No point in cheating, just terminate. It justifies terminating if he asked and was duped at the beginning. If he did not ask and found out later when overhearing a bunch of dudes bragging about banging his girl, well that’s going to cause some deep gut wrenching angst and nobody would blame him for terminating in that case too. Such terminations must be broadcast so women can finally learn the lessons of their ways.

    Joel stated this in comment 352 -

    “the majority of the average and below average women from the Western world are definitively, massively more sexual active than most of the men in their league”

    That is the sole root of the so-called “double standard” and is a very real and very very disturbing fad and anyone who denies that this behavioral pattern freaks men out and negatively impacts relationships is a complete moron.

  • unigirl

    No denying that it freaks men out here, people feel how they feel. If a relationship is terminated, I respect that. At least then you know where you stand. My fear is that someone would stay because they don’t want to terminate, but secretly cheat to get one over for the angst or whatever, kind of an excuse to have your cake and eat it too.
    Perhaps I’m just being paranoid, I was talking to a male family member the other day whose opinion I trust and got some perspective. That comment just freaked me out.

  • unigirl

    The one about anon beta’s wife I mean.

  • Just a thought

    For once I actually agree with Abbot and ungirl.
    I feel very little sympathy for anonymous beta’s cheating. He married a woman with a higher SMV than him. (Too much to handle) and then he pedestalized and couldn’t keep the relationship interesting/satisfying for her. But even more, let’s look beyond this.
    Men who really want marriage and their own children, I posit you this, You meet, marry, and fall in love with a woman who will never ever, in the history of her entire life, have children, Yet, you love this woman desperately. But you can’t have the children you deeply desire. You have a higher SMV than her, because you are a rich, successful businessman, young fertile girls throw themselves at you all the time. To make things even worse, suddenly, she’s tired and doesn’t want sex. I’m sure your male rationalization hamster would probably lead you to cheat or at least divorce her. This is his wife’s situation. Infertility is awful in a marriage, expecting this girl to never have said anything untoward to him or not feel angry/powerless is kind of ridiculous. I’ll bite. I could see myself, if I had a little less sense and was angry, saying the same thing. She may have settled for him/ doesn’t love him. Therefore, the only consolation she gets out of the marriage would be money/children. In this day and age, money isn’t enough. So she feels duped and cheated. Anyway, even if she does love him, she was depressed and frustrated. Depressed people say crazy things,
    Either way, if he feels he’s been abused, he should leave. He should not cheat and lie to her. He should not go enjoy some random prostitute. He should go find another girl. Or is he afraid he couldn’t get a better bargain, an SMV 9 girl? It’s a slippery slope if you start to endorse cheating. Marriage is a contract, cheating makes a mockery of marriage. I’m genuinely sorry that he suffered, but if my mom cheated on my dad every time life was difficult, they would be divorced 10 times already. I’ll say it even if people feel angry: Anonymous beta, stop using your hamster rationalization wheel to cheat. Be honest about who you are and what you want.

  • Kathy

    “I feel very little sympathy for anonymous beta’s cheating.”

    That’s because you lack empathy and understanding.

    The guy had been pulled through the wringer.

    He HAD been completely faithfull to his wife.

    He (through no fault of his own) was infertile..

    How did his wife react?

    Said she would have sex with other men.. Taunted him. Made him feel bad.

    Through all of this, he agreed to donor sperm so his wife could become pregnant.
    He has accepted the child and will look after him, too.

    What? So you think that this bloke is some kind of robot?

    He’s a human being and those nasty things that his wife said to him cut him to the quick!

    Just a thought?
    You are thoughtless!

  • unigirl

    @ Just a thought, you’ve explained the gut feeling I had something was off there perfectly, people might stay for one reason or another in that situation, and although Abbot says men will just opt out, I believe for whatever reasons some men would stay, high smv for example, because although I do sympathise with his situation honestly that’s what it looks like, a rationalisation for indulging his urge for sexual variety while still getting to keep her.

  • Kathy

    ” I do sympathise with his situation honestly that’s what it looks like, a rationalisation for indulging his urge for sexual variety while still getting to keep her.”

    “rationalisation for indulging his urge for sexual variety while still getting to keep her.”???

    Absolute Bullshit!

    I don’t even know why I even bother to respond to such a puerile, insensitive and clueless comment such as yours.

    Only that it makes me so angry at your heartless oversimplification of what anonymous beta has endured in his marriage.

    None of us are perfect, you know!
    Not even you!
    You have much to learn, young lady.

  • Just a thought

    Ungirl, I agree with you.
    Kathy, I’ll answer this post, but because I don’t want this forum to become one big argument over empathy I won’t reply any future ones.
    The guy has been completely faithful to his wife. I know, he is in a marriage. He doesn’t get a medal for being faithful, he’s supposed to do that. I know he was infertile, through no fault of his own. His wife was depressed through no fault of her own, have you no empathy for that? Infertility = empathy but depression does not? Kathy……
    Yeah, his wife reacted badly. She was angry and miserable and DEPRESSED. When one is depressed, she /he does not and cannot think rationally . Furthermore, they both had a lot of arguments, many cruel things were probably said. I’ll bite, my mother has said more cruel things to me in a day than what anonymous beta mentioned his wife said. Do I divorce my mom? No, because I understand that what she said was in a flush of anger and I accept that I can be difficult sometimes. Even more, if anonymous beta doesn’t like what his wife said, he can leave. He can simply get up and walk away and tell her “this is not what I want”. He can assert himself with honesty and integrity and fight for his own needs. His wife said nasty things to him and he cheated? This is a victim narrative. I’m not saying, as I stated before, that I don’t feel some sympathy because I acknowledge that it hurts when people say awful things to you. I would know. But beta is a grown man. He has options. He can walk out. He can demand better treatment from his wife. He can insist on therapy. If anonymous beta is a touchstone of what betaness is, here’s why women won’t like betas.
    Because being a beta does not mean you have no right to assert yourself and get what you want. Being a beta does not mean you defer to everything your wife wants in a relationship. Being a beta does not mean you let your wife hit you, abuse you and treat you like shit. Being a beta means you care about your family/ treating people right, but if you are not happy with your wife. If you are not getting the respect you want, do something. Or else, your wife will not respect you and soon won’t love you. And for goodness sake, don’t cheat on your wife because you can’t tell her that you are hurt and angry due to her behavior.

  • Kathy

    I see no point in banging my head against a brick wall here, so I will bow out now before my head explodes!

  • Cooper

    Kathy 1, Just a thought -1.

  • OffTheCuff

    SW: “Yeah, no. Sorry. Your experience isn’t as applicable in this situation (and definitely less so than J’s) because as someone who willingly does not want children, you haven’t experienced the stressors of infertility on a marital relationship. Fair point that I haven’t either, but at the same time, I’m not advising Anon Beta to torch his relationship just because he feels he doesn’t have the “upper hand”. ”

    Well, I agree with Mike more than you or J. I’m the one who is married, only once, and have gone through a brief bit of PCOS-related infertility when we were very young (our first child was conceived by IUI). My wife would never dream of uttering that sort of stuff, even on her most hormonal days. I would not stand for that for one second. There is something seriously wrong there and getting out of the marriage, before she cuckolds him is to be strongly considered.

  • Abbot

    “No denying that it freaks men out here”

    No denying that it freaks men out UNIVERSALLY

  • unigirl

    @Kathy,
    I’m don’t think I implied I was perfect anywhere, in fact I’ve pretty much owned up to the total opposite previously, and I wouldn’t disagree that I have a lot to learn, that’s probably the main reason why I read and occasionally comment here, so I don’t really know where that’s come from to be honest.
    In fact I actually don’t see what your issue is, I clarified by saying I understand there were factors that influenced his deciding to do that, so as far as I know we’re in agreement there, but that said do you honestly think it’s the natural response to the situation?
    No doubt there are shades of grey, and obviously he can’t include every single factor that led to his deciding to do that in his comment, but even so I just don’t get the jump, mistreated by wife = go see a prostitute.
    If he’d have merely said he was leaving or something because of her behaviour (although to be fair we don’t have her side or feelings or reasons either) then I’d be in total agreement. Two wrongs don’t make a right that’s all

  • Just a thought

    Okay, I probably should not keep pounding this because I don’t want to completely derail this entire post. I’ll indulge myself this once and then I’ll stop.
    1. I’m not encouraging the guy to stick in the relationship. I’m telling him to assert his pain to his wife and if she doesn’t care/ is unresponsive- to leave. So, in a way, I’m telling him to take stronger drastic measures.
    2. I do not condone cheating ever. Men and women who cheat make a marriage useless. If you cheat, your marriage is a lie. I pray that in the future, I will never let myself rationalize out of this. Cheating is wrong. Period. It is dishonest . it is unacceptable. If you have to cheat in your marriage, you should either divorce or separate.
    3. If we at (HUS) condone cheating but say women divorcing for trivial reasons/ to marry up is wrong, that is a double standard. We must demand the same type of modesty and decency from men as from women. What if I came to HUS with a story like this
    ” I am a housewife. My husband is a stressed high-profile businessman who is also depressed frequently and comes home from work and yells at me all day. He calls me fat, stupid and ugly. These comments cut me to the core. So I slept with my neighbor because he’s hot and I felt better.” Is that right? No. Her husband is wrong in berating her. But she is still wrong to cheat.
    4. The woman is depressed. Depression is not fun. It makes you do things you would not normally do. Should the man put up with her behavior due to that? No. Still, this gives you some insight into her actions.
    Anyway, I’ve indulged my urge to explain myself.

  • Iggles

    Alright, I’ll probably get flamed for weighing in on Anonymous Beta’s situation, but here goes…

    I can see both sides here. Their marriage was under a lot of stress. Both of them went through a lot of hurt. AB’s feeling of insecurity in his relationship, low self-image, and grief over his low sperm count. His wife’s desperation to have kids (no judgment, I would likely feel the same in her shoes because I too strong desire to have children), her feeling of abandonment due to the emotional and physical withdrawal of her husband, and depression/mood swings brought on by hormones (as a woman I know hormones are very powerful and can change the way you feel, think, and act! Many men don’t get this and just think we’re acting “crazy” “irrational”).

    I think it’s commendable that AB agreed to use a donor for their son. I think it’s commendable his wife apologized for what she said and how she acted towards him while under duress.

    That said, I find a whole host of thing problematic in his tale.

    The fact that he refers to their son as “the child” stands out to me. He is detached emotionally from fully embracing this boy as his son. Children are adopted all the time. Children concieved with donor are essentially adopted children of the non-biological parent. Either you view this child as your son or he’s not. It’s not healthy to raise an adopted child with the feeling he or she is “less” yours because of a lack of biological connect.

    Also, I feel that Anonymous Beta is punishing his wife for things beyond her control. It’s not her fault that she is a 9 or 10 that looks like a model. He knew this when he met her and married her anyway. The resulting insecurities he feels is something he needs to deal with on his own. It’s HIS issue. He needs to decide whether he can truly live with her as she is or not. Also, her number of previous partners is NOT something she can change. That it’s higher than his is also something he knew before he married her. Feeling wistful about missed opportunities in his younger days is all on him. It’s not conductive to being “happily married”. It having more sexual variety is so important to him, by all means, he should let his wife know. She may divorce him on the spot, or she may agree to an open marriage. It’s not fair for him to keep this issue to himself, stew about it, and use it as a justification to sleep with other women.

    I’ll admit, as a woman with a low sociosexual orientation I don’t think I’ll ever understand the urge for sexual variety! My N is 2, and I’m completely find with never adding to that number! I also don’t have a hypergamous bone in my body, haha. As long as a guy hits my baseline level for passion, drive, and ambition in a partner then our relationship will be okay (I’m a venus in capricorn after all! :lol: ).

    However, I can see this is a big issue for AB. Ultimately my views on his situation sums up as this:
    Can you live with your wife and accept the things she cannot change? Can you work through your insecurities on your own and not take them out on her?

    @ Just a thought:

    Men who really want marriage and their own children, I posit you this, You meet, marry, and fall in love with a woman who will never ever, in the history of her entire life, have children, Yet, you love this woman desperately. But you can’t have the children you deeply desire. You have a higher SMV than her, because you are a rich, successful businessman, young fertile girls throw themselves at you all the time. To make things even worse, suddenly, she’s tired and doesn’t want sex. I’m sure your male rationalization hamster would probably lead you to cheat or at least divorce her. This is his wife’s situation.

    +1

    When a partner is rejected for sex it causes a number of issues in the relationship. Rejection doesn’t sting less because it happens to a woman. Still, it was hurtful for her to ask to sleep with others. I think it’s worst that AB actually went ahead and did so without his wife’s knowledge or consent.

  • J

    We don’t need you to inform us about eating habits or how bleak you believe the dating prospects are for us.

    Yes, I too have have been wondering what’s to be gained by that. While weight is malleable to some degree (though 90% of those who lose weight out it back on), body shape, hair texture and skin tone are not. What I’m hearing on this thread is that black women are simply out of luck because they have features they really can’t do much about. How does it help a black woman who wants a mate to wallow in all that?

  • J

    Well, I agree with Mike more than you or J. I’m the one who is married, only once, and have gone through a brief bit of PCOS-related infertility when we were very young (our first child was conceived by IUI). My wife would never dream of uttering that sort of stuff, even on her most hormonal days

    I’m didn’t realize that you and your wife had been through infertility. I’m happy you were able to conceive. Nontheless, I think there are some substantial differences in your situation and Anon Beta’s. First, PCOS is a female problem; a change in sperm donor would not have made a difference in the outcome. In Anon Beta’s case, his inability to produce viable sperm seems to have been the issue. As hurtful as his wife’s remarks were, they were accurate. She needed someone else’s sperm to get pregnant. Second, your wife was still young. The pressure of that biological clock ticking away wasn’t there for her as it was for Mrs. AB.

    Please bear in mind that I am justifying her remarks any more than I can justify AB’s cheating. I’m merely saying that they both acted out inappropriately. He is more than “even” now having broken his wedding vows, and they should see if they can move forward since they agreed to bring a life into this world that they are both responsible for.

  • J

    I actually did it un purpose …

    That is so sweet, Ana!

  • J

    Throughout the wedding, her eyes looked dead. When he went to kiss her at the altar she asked for just a peck on the cheek. She rarely ever looked at him, the man who she had given her life to.

    That’s very sad for both of them–and for any kids they may have. There’s a huge difference between giving up unrealistic expectations and marrying someone you feel nothing for.

  • J

    I don’t know that marriage success or happiness has every been studied correlated against Myers-Brigg personality types, but I suspect it would be quite telling.

    I don’t know if there is research, but many of the M-B websites will tell you what types are compatible with yours. In general, they suggest comlimentary types (Is with Es, for example) with at least one dimension matching and the rest differing.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Br0dribb

    I don’t know about Myers-Briggs stuff, but the research I’ve seen on personality and relationship longevity says people who are higher in Conscientiousness and Agreeableness (of the Big 5 personality traits) seem to do the best.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    I don’t know if there is research, but many of the M-B websites will tell you what types are compatible with yours. In general, they suggest comlimentary types (Is with Es, for example) with at least one dimension matching and the rest differing.

    I know intjforum.com is filled with ENFPs in love with INTJs…

  • Alias

    @ Hope, Obsidian
    I messed up the #s yesterday, ~39 mil is the # of available bachelors from all races. (the Census provides exact #s, it’s time consuming)
    Anyway, I found the following document- it’s called PanAsian -relationship of 2 Asians of different ethnicities, a growing trend.

    Some important points:
    -Asian American marriage rate = 60%
    -Asian Americans intermarriage rate = 25%
    -2004 pop – 12 million Asians or multiracial Asians (men, women, children)
    -Asians have the highest educational attainment of all racial groups.
    - Research shows intermarriage more common in among the more educated

    “Asian American cultures place great value on marriage as demonstrated by high rates of marriage. Asian cultural attitudes about marriage center on traditional family values, often encouraging gender-specific roles and a strong familial focus on children. Marriage is considered the means to building families, and families are fundamentally important to Asians. In most Asian cultures, a marital relationship is not solely a relationship between spouses, but involves the extended family as well.20”

    http://www.acf.hhs.gov/healthymarriage/pdf/marriageamongasianamericans.pdf

    Also interesting, Pew Research “Marrying Out”
    http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf

  • unigirl

    @Abbot, I meant no denying here it freaks men out here, ‘here’ as in, no denying from me, you misunderstood me.

  • OffTheCuff

    J, our next child was born 13 months later. We went from infertile, to hair-trigger superfertile for the next 2 kids.

    That said, if either my wife or myself were unable to have our own children, we’d never consider a donor sperm or egg. No way, no how. We rather adopt someone compeltely unrelated by blood, or have none.

  • J

    I know intjforum.com is filled with ENFPs in love with INTJs…

    IIRC, having the N in common and the rest complimentarily different is what predicts compatibility. I should be with an ENFJ, but DH is INTJ. Where we have issues, it’s because we both tend towards aloofness and then get mad at the other for being “stuck up.”

  • J

    J, our next child was born 13 months later. We went from infertile, to hair-trigger superfertile for the next 2 kids.

    That’s so weird, OTC. I conceived #2 son after just 2 months of trying–despite being over 40. It’s as if the body says, “Oh, that’s what I was supposed to be doijng all this time. Now I get it.”

    That said, if either my wife or myself were unable to have our own children, we’d never consider a donor sperm or egg.

    I’d have considered a donor egg and DH’s sperm before I had kids, if for no other reason than wanting to give DH a bio-child. After I miscarried what would have been #3, I’d have considered a surrogate or adoption. I would not have wanted to risk another pregnancy with an egg other than my own. It would have been too much physically.

    DH wanted nothing other than a bio-child of both us. If donor sperm became our last option and he would have said no, I would have had to decide between him and a child, and as desperate as I was, I might have left him to have a baby alone.

    We rather adopt someone compeltely unrelated by blood, or have none.

    We had a lot of fears about adoption. During that period of time, DH worked in politics and was sometimes called upon to intercede in foreign adoptions gone wrong. We have already taken one emotional roller coaster ride with the infertility problem. I don’t think we could done another with adoption.

    Also, I had worked in adolescent mental health and adopted kids were way over-represented among my clients. That gave me (and many of my coworkers) pause.

  • J

    the research I’ve seen on personality and relationship longevity says people who are higher in Conscientiousness and Agreeableness (of the Big 5 personality traits) seem to do the best.

    Makes sense!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Alias, thanks for the data!

    I think one thing that may be a factor is that Asians are small enough % of population, particularly in non-coastal US, that it can be rare for one Asian single to meet another one. The chances are much higher that they meet and befriend non-Asians, which is one of the reasons for the high intermarriage rate.

    Also, I absolutely agree with what you said about family/cultural messages. The expectation is that I would graduate college, marry and have kids, and not have kids out-of-wedlock. It was such a part of my upbringing that it was like water to fish. Also, my mother said that white guys were okay, whereas I understand that some other Asian parents strictly forbid it.

  • Anonymous Beta

    Thanks everyone for sharing thoughts.

    I don’t condone cheating and I know what I did was wrong, absolutely wrong, if you consider the vows taken. I do not advocate any other man to do the same, nor do I excuse myself as being a “special case”. I’m only telling you my experience and how I was thinking/feeling.

    I can tell you I’ve done the therapist thing as well (tried 3 different ones) and found a really good one, but therapy cannot fix everything. I found my own way to deal with it – so rather than going on wondering what I missed out on, I got it out of the way. I can tell you it has freed me of the green monster and the “what ifs”.

    I just wanted to show you a real-life example of how life can really blind-side both partners, and that expecting the woman and man to always act in an idealistic manner is a bit naive. Those of you that are proclaiming “he should do this” and “she should do that” have it all correct — on paper. But life is messy and once you’re in a 15+ year relationship just walking away to do things “by the book” might not be the best thing to do. I get the feeling some of you who are making it “black and white” might be a little younger or have not been involved with someone long enough to understand, or have not dealt with infertility (it breaks most marriages, hands down). I would be saying the same things , i.e. “just leave”.

    Thanks to those who understood and didn’t condemn me.

  • SayWhaat

    Also, my mother said that white guys were okay, whereas I understand that some other Asian parents strictly forbid it.

    My dad has a saying: No BMWs!

    (No blacks, whites, or Muslims!)

  • Just a thought

    Say Whaat, what do you mean? Are you only allowed to date asians?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Say Whaat, what do you mean? Are you only allowed to date asians?

      Ha, it means that Say Whaat is a disobedient daughter :)

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anon Beta
    “I get the feeling some of you who are making it “black and white” might be a little younger or have not been involved with someone long enough to understand, or have not dealt with infertility (it breaks most marriages, hands down).”

    Good on you for being brave enough to share, generous enough to show everyone here an example of real life complexity, and resolute enough to go with your gut in your situation. It’s rare to see a person do wrong (cheat) under curcumstances that strongly justify the wrong, and still admit that the act was wrong. You remind me of my dad. FWIW I hear you, and did not respond upthread because I can’t even pretend to have any useful input in this case. I just wish you the best.

  • Kathy

    You’re a GOOD EGG, RWC! :D

  • Jackie

    I agree:

    Royale W. Cheese is a GOOD EGG! :-)

    PS: That’s something my dad loves to say, Kathy! You are in excellent company. ;)

  • Jackie

    Anonymous Beta,

    I wanted to let you know I am thinking about your family: you, your wife and your son.

    I know that even the best marriages have difficult times. It’s a lot easier to talk about the fun and shiny parts than the dark and difficult ones. Do you have any long-married friends or relations that you can talk to?

    Please know that I am wishing you all much peace.

  • yareallypua

    “It is impossible for a woman to respond this way to any neg, however indirect or amusing, about her weight. Even a SHB10 will feel her spirits sink when teased about her weight. A weight-related neg is incapable of producing the tingle. Do not do it. At best, you will find yourself with a sullen SHB10, at worst she’ll tell you to fuck off and mean it.”

    Drive-by comment because my “someone who’s never picked up a girl before is giving bad advice on how to pick up girls” radar went off (no offense Sue):

    An SHB10 has no problem with you making fun of her weight because she knows she’s not fat and she’s confident enough that if she thought you were seriously insulting her she wouldn’t care what you think.

    Often what happens is she knows you’re not serious (because a SHB10 isn’t socially inept like a lot of average girls) and she picks up on your confidence so she makes fun of something about you because she knows you won’t take her seriously either, and you both get into a back and forth “pfft, I’m not into you at all, sorry, you’re too fat” and she jabs back with a “ya well I don’t date short guys”, etc. exchange where the words sound like a fight to everyone else, but both people involved know there’s a 2nd conversation going on under the surface…the sub-communicated conversation where you both know you’re flirting. The end result is of the “I hate you” “I hate you too” (makeout) variety which is extremely sexually charged and full of all sorts of “gina tingles”.

    Average-to-hot girls take weight jokes the worst because even if they’re not fat, they’re not confident like an SHB10 is…they’re almost perfect but know deep down that they aren’t quite perfect, so the wrong comment can hit an extremely sensitive nerve…a 1-5 girl who’s fat and knows it just expects everyone to think she’s ugly so the nerve isn’t as sensitive to her like with a middle-ground chick.

    The exchange actually looks a lot like these two scenes:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxc-nrYrdnE

    This has been a drive-by comment from your friendly neighbourhood PUA who regularly approaches hot girls and says things that you guys would never believe you can say to someone you’ve just met without being slapped or arrested, and certainly wouldn’t believe would lead to sex or a relationship lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PUA

      An SHB10 has no problem with you making fun of her weight because she knows she’s not fat and she’s confident enough that if she thought you were seriously insulting her she wouldn’t care what you think.

      False. The sheer number of supermodels with eating disorders disproves that claim. For a better understanding of the link between low self-esteem and beauty, watch this. Don’t miss the woman at 1:50:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUx11kjbYg0

      The most beautiful women very often do not feel that way.

      Also, men mistakenly assume that women enjoy being hit on. That is not true for women who endure it day in and day out. It may be true for women who don’t get as much attention.

  • J

    Royale W. Cheese is a GOOD EGG!

    Cosigned!

  • J

    @yareallypua

    Nice link. You see a lot of that in real life.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also, my mother said that white guys were okay, whereas I understand that some other Asian parents strictly forbid it.

    Hubby lost two girlfriends over this (one Latina one Asian) and I have a black friend that lost a chinese girlfriend too over that. So this is a huge factor if the parents disagree you might be screw.

    The exchange actually looks a lot like these two scenes:

    Oh God I just had dinner, at 7 months pregnant this is the more nausea I had felt. Stupid people making out *shrug*

  • Jackie

    @Ana, yrpua

    I am with Ana: It looks like dysfunctional people who were brought up in a barn or outhouse. It’s not funny, it’s stupid.

    I guess this means I will never win YrPua’s negging! *weeps, wails, gnashes teeth*

    And to think I could have had an overweight, jobless, less-than-hygienic (you don’t believe in bathing, right, Pua?) guy insult me and call me fat to get “the tingles,” and get used for meaningless sex!

    O Cruel World!

  • Charm

    In reference to myers briggs, the letters dont mean much. They actually mean nothing really. Its the functions that matter.

    The reason ENFPs love INTJ is because they are the ideal couple. They only have one letter in common, but two functions in common. The first three functions for INTJ is Ni, Te, Fi and the first three for the ENFP are Ne, Fi, Te so they have 2 in common just in different order which is why they get along so well. They have just enough similarities and differences to work out well.

    Also, F doesnt mean much either. Fe and Fi are two completely different things. ENFPs, INFPs, ISFPs and ESFPs all use Fi whereas ENFJs, INFJs, ESFJs and ISFJs all use Fe.

    Fe users make judgement based on how they believe things should be, while Fi users make judgements based on how they (personally) believe things should be. So Fe is more aware of other feelings while Fi is aware of how others make them feel. Fe users make moral judgments based on what the whole thinks while Fi users make moral judgments based on how they feel about it personally.

    ENFPs are actually the least “feely” of the NFs. They actually pass for NTs all the time and have the ability to be ridiculously objective. I’ve been reading up on personality theory these past few months and I am actually and ENFP. Who would have thought, right? :D

    Anyway, just wanted to say that its best to focus on cognitive functions of each type and not the lettering.

  • yareallypua

    @Jackie

    Oh look, hostility and personal insults in response to logic instead of an actual counter-point to discuss an uncomfortable topic and understand the psychology behind why it happens. Didn’t see that coming lol

    It’s difficult to gain a comprehensive, in-depth understanding of human psychology if you just cover your ears and shout “LA LA LA!!” when the topic makes you feel “icky”.

    A more productive response might have been something like “Oh, that’s an interesting observation, why is it that a rule (“weight jokes never go over well!” “you have to be rich and handsome!” “girls don’t like assholes!”) can be broken sometimes and not other times? What are the consistent variables involved when the rule is successfully broken? For the sake of helping our fellow women understand why they make the sometimes bad choices in men that they make (that’s the purpose of this site right? Helping women choose the right man for a long-term relationship?) let’s figure out why some of us respond one way and some of us respond another way to the same stimuli so we can better prepare our gender for long-term mating selection!”

    But you’re free to do as you like, including ignoring the logic of what I’m saying and writing off the “SHB10s” who are confident enough to joke about their looks as just drunk slutty low-self-esteem bar-whores (I’m sure that one’s coming next) or personally insult me completely unprovoked, it’s not like I haven’t heard it all before. :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PUA

      I like how Dane Cook admits “I’ve taken down some real hogs.” A player giving an honest FR!

  • Jackie

    YrPua (595)
    Hi YrPua,

    Thanks for the response! Quick check: You have claimed to be out of a job (something about living off your “harem”– although maybe I’m confusing you with another pua?), you said you are overweight (beer belly, correct?), you said you don’t bathe I think (there was a similar pua who made claims about his natural scent being attractive, though his work supervisor apparently had to talk to him about it– that was you, right?).

    Anyway, I believe you went on at some length extolling your personal lack of charms, so I did not mean to be hostile; only accurate. I would be glad to be corrected and thank you in advance!

    Now this is interesting!:

    ” What are the consistent variables involved when the rule is successfully broken?”

    and I would love a discussion on it! This would be fascinating as well:

    ” let’s figure out why some of us respond one way and some of us respond another way to the same stimuli so we can better prepare our gender for long-term mating selection!”

    YrPua, your choice of illustration with the YouTube clip was where you lost me. To me, that is not wit, banter or even intelligence. When you get down to it, it’s two people denigrating each other’s bodies.

    (Have you seen “It Happened One Night”? It’s an OLD movie (but Clark Gable was hot!), yet there is a ton of negging done with quick wit instead of insults about a small penis or fat butt. There’s a reason why it swept the Oscars and is still around after 70 years.)

    To me, the YouTube was lame and derivative. You find amusing. We’re obviously on different wavelengths, no big deal. Yes yes, you have tons of sex, but what do you have to offer marriage-minded young women? What positive things can people seeking good character learn from you? I don’t mean to hurt your feelings, I just don’t see it at present (and would be glad to find out I am wrong).

    Thank you again for responding, YrPua, and best wishes–

    PS: YrPua, have you ever seen the French movie “La Belle et La Bete”? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaG3zns3fqA) It’s really interesting in that it addresses similar points: Why does she fall in love with this hideous Beast and at the end is put off by his transformation into an uber-Beta prince?

  • Ian

    I’m quite enjoying the latter part of this thread, credit goes especially to Just a Thought and Anonymous Beta for cutting through. Thanks.

    Hubby lost two girlfriends over this (one Latina one Asian) and I have a black friend that lost a chinese girlfriend too over that. So this is a huge factor if the parents disagree you might be screw.

    To Susan, I’ll add that this was a factor in the befuddling ‘post-selection’ girlfriend I lost. He was high-caste; her family had a favorite in the fight, to understate matters. Going so far as offering to buy them an apartment, in the latter stages.

    Also, I absolutely agree with what you said about family/cultural messages. The expectation is that I would graduate college, marry and have kids, and not have kids out-of-wedlock. It was such a part of my upbringing that it was like water to fish. Also, my mother said that white guys were okay, whereas I understand that some other Asian parents strictly forbid it.

    Nature or nurture, I read about a cross-cultural brain scan study, the gist of which was that continental Asians’ brains lit in the region related to self-perception when speaking of their families, Americans’ did not. Family/self were intertwined, if I’m remembering it correctly.

  • unigirl

    @yareally
    I reckon self esteem and confidence comes more from personality type and life experiences etc than looks, whereas confidence derived from looks comes from outside so it’s not as stable, plus there’s always a bit of disagreement on a girls hotness, a girl might know she’s generally considered hot but have some flaw or something that she’s sensitive about. Just by way of example think of maybe Kim Kardashian or someone here, to some she’s maybe a ten, to others she might be much less, her bum is very big – to one person that might be the very reason she’s hot, to another it might be the very reason she’s not, an asset to one can be a flaw to another – and I reckon she probably knows that, for example she might secretly hate it while at the same time knowing a lot of people like it, so if someone commented about it it might be like confirming her worst fears, which even though some people would say she’s a ten, would still upset her.
    Basically what I’m saying in a roundabout way here is I agree the connection between beauty and confidence isn’t always that simple.
    Not that I’m disagreeing at all or saying negs don’t work or anything like that. I am curious what the variables are, why the rule holds, why sometimes it doesn’t definately..
    @anon beta, sorry if you felt you were being attacked there, I initially honed in on what you’d said for selfish reasons really, how it might relate to me, then kind of got into my opinion, which is obviously very detatched from the realities of your situation, I wasn’t judging at all. I hope everything works out ok for you

  • unigirl

    Also women always compare themselves to other women, A blonde beauty might compare herself unfavourably to a swarthy dark one, a curvy woman to a waifish one, noone can be everything after all.

  • Cooper

    Woah. I had to rub my eyes. It’s Charm!

  • pvw

    Regarding the I-E spectrum and someone’s observations (Anacaona?) about having a Virgo INTJ mom and Susan’s comments about young women looking to her as a confidante rather than their own mothers, I have been thinking about this.

    Although INTJs are focused primarily on logic and thinking, there are certain relationships where some INTJ’s might need to cultivate their F side more, ie., the more intimate relationships with parents, siblings, spouses, children.

    I find that it is in these categories of relationships that I (INTJ Virgo woman) will talk more about my feelings. Those who are not in that circle, aunts/uncles/cousins/friends, might take me to be more cold, distant, remote. My mom calls it “keeping secrets.”

    I just have higher boundaries and I often presume that others have them as well, so it comes as a surprise when talking to friends and relatives on the F spectrum, the extent to which they want to talk about their emotions or mine.

    For example, they might know about emotional crises I have dealth with, but they only know the basic facts. I haven’t shared as much with them the emotional aspects of. There are some people who don’t even know about the crises at all, even though I have known them forever. We just talk about other things.

    Returning to those on the F spectrum, I might appear more remote because they are dealing with emotional crises that I can’t relate to, or if I ever did, I just haven’t dealt with in a long time, so I’m “rusty”. Yet, I can talk to them about what they are experiencing, I’d just rather not talk about my experiences with similar emotional crises.

    This is something I find interesting as I think about other INTJ women I know; with very high boundaries, especially emotionally, we don’t do the indiscreet gossipfests. A man on the E spectrum would not be challenging insofar as he would likely want to go out and socialize alot; I have developed an extraverted persona for socializing, but I would be concerned about him having lower boundaries than me.

    I can think of one couple where he is an E-F and she is an I; she finds that with his greater needs for emotional connection with others, ie., his friends, he has lower boundaries for privacy, she feels that she has to compete for his attention at times and that he can be indiscreet in dealing with others. So I’m quite glad to husband is on the I spectrum like me (he is an ISTJ).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      Returning to those on the F spectrum, I might appear more remote because they are dealing with emotional crises that I can’t relate to, or if I ever did, I just haven’t dealt with in a long time, so I’m “rusty”. Yet, I can talk to them about what they are experiencing, I’d just rather not talk about my experiences with similar emotional crises.

      Speaking as an ENFJ, we tend to take this reticence personally. We shouldn’t, but because we have a different mindset around sharing emotions, it can feel rejecting when someone is very private. I recall one woman I was getting friendly with, and I confided something in her – it was my way of escalating the friendship to a more intimate level. It wasn’t even that personal, but she was obviously made uncomfortable and did not go on to share anything in return. I realized then we were not well matched as friends, even though I liked her very much. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned to be better at accepting people for who they are, and now I feel very close to several introverts. When I was young, though, all of my female friends were extroverted like me. Interestingly, I was very drawn to my introverted husband, and over the years we have balanced each other out.

  • Ramble

    Also, my mother said that white guys were okay, whereas I understand that some other Asian parents strictly forbid it.

    My dad has a saying: No BMWs!

    (No blacks, whites, or Muslims!)

    So, was he OK with Hispanics/Latinos, or were that not on his radar?

  • Ramble

    The sheer number of supermodels with eating disorders disproves that claim.

    Susan, I am not sure how true that is. Specifically, my understanding is that of those girls that are most recognizable to the general public, most have never had an “eating disorder”.

    Please understand that I am NOT saying that you do not find plenty of girls in that industry with disorders or really odd eating habits, but, that most of the big names have fairly “normal” diets (I only put normal in quotes because they may be getting more fresh food and less processed crap which is, nowadays, not all that normal).

    I am sure that many of them have had some gay designer tell them that they are fat, and that they may have skipped a meal or two because of that, but, in general, they have a fairly normal diet.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      most of the big names have fairly “normal” diets (I only put normal in quotes because they may be getting more fresh food and less processed crap which is, nowadays, not all that normal).

      I’m not an expert on this issue. I have seen one documentary on eating disorders that featured many models, and I believe a couple of supermodels have written memoirs detailing their struggles with food. I recall one description of lunch – soaked cotton balls – which fill the stomach but go through the digestive system whole.

  • J

    Wow! Going for higher attractiveness is very counterintuitive but I think you might be right. I’ll shoot for the 8-10s instead of 5-7s that I planned to go for…Unlike with Game, I can actually feel comfortable using this strategy.

    It’s a double-edged sword. It’s true that really attractive girls may be lonely, and therefore more approachable, because many men are intimidated by them. OTOH, it’s case of “Be careful what you wish for.” Didn’t we just have poster discussing his feelings of insecurity regarding his more attractive wife? People really do tend to mate assortatively–same level of looks, wealth, intelligence, personality, etc. If there is a gap in favor of one partner in one category, there needs to be a compensatory gap in favor of the other party in another category–and both partners have to acknowledge it. Otherwise,one partner has too much “hand” as Roissy calls it.

  • J

    @Jackie,

    have you ever seen the French movie “La Belle et La Bete”? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaG3zns3fqA) It’s really interesting in that it addresses similar points: Why does she fall in love with this hideous Beast and at the end is put off by his transformation into an uber-Beta prince?

    The original fairy tale is a metaphor. The beast is male sexuality, which the beauty tames, transforming the beast into husband material.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      The original fairy tale is a metaphor. The beast is male sexuality, which the beauty tames, transforming the beast into husband material.

      Really! I had no idea! How interesting – male sexuality needs to be tamed by the female in order for marriage to occur. Why is this a tale worth telling? Because without monogamous marriage, there is no productive civilization.

      So…can we say that it is best for everyone if the male sexual desire for variety is suppressed? :)

  • Ramble

    The beast is male sexuality, which the beauty tames, transforming the beast into husband material.

    Which is how it should be.

    You can almost hear women saying: “Men, be aggressive, be competitive, escalate, advance and we will set the parameters. We will let you know when you have gone too far or too fast. Then, when you regulate your behaviour, we will know that you respect our decisions and modesty.

    Be Masculine. Be Men.”

    Yes, we all exist on a spectrum, but, in general, I believe that women want males to be masculine.

  • J

    Yes, we all exist on a spectrum, but, in general, I believe that women want males to be masculine.

    Of course.

    Even among the women here who say they don’t care for alphas, me among them, want some level of masculinity. I would consider my husband to be quite masculine–just not thuggish or domineering. In fact, I often see thuggishness as a form of weakness adopted by men with few other resources.

  • Ramble

    Of course.

    Just to be clear. Are you also “of coursing” the aggressive, competitive, escalate, advance parts as well, or just the more generic “be masculine”.

  • Charm

    Woah. I had to rub my eyes. It’s Charm!

    Its hard to keep up with the conversations around here. Every time I log on there are 100 new comments to read and by the time I get through that, there are 100 more. So I’m usually playing keep up and rarely get to comment myself.:D

  • J

    I’m endorsing ‘just the more generic “be masculine”.’ I actually worry about the “overcoming last minute resistance” stuff as I think it leads to horrible misunderstandings about people actually want at beast and FRAs at worst. I also see masculinity as something that exists both in and out of sexual experiences. It’s a way of being.

  • Ramble

    I’m endorsing ‘just the more generic “be masculine”.’

    That’s what I figured.

  • Cooper

    “So I’m usually playing keep up and rarely get to comment myself.:D”

    Excuses, excuses. /s :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Even among the women here who say they don’t care for alphas, me among them, want some level of masculinity.

    I do like masculinity to a point but I hate the guys that take theirs too seriously. Everytime I hear “I’m a man” as a justification for doing or not doing something I cringe “What big guy’s dick is going to fall off if you watch a rom com?” makes me look at them as very childlike and insecure. If you don’t like something is okay just not to like it, doing stuff because “Manly men don’t do X” is really off putting, IMO. I have my own girl limitations but at least I had tried every single one of them before quitting, YMMV.

  • Iggles

    @ J:

    I’m endorsing ‘just the more generic “be masculine”.’

    Same here! ;-)

    Masculine energy draws me in, whereas femininity in guys is a turn off to me!

    It isn’t an alpha/beta thing in my eyes. An alpha can exhibit feminine traits (see: jersey shore guys with overly plucked eyebrows who go for pedicures!) for instance.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    It’s a double-edged sword. It’s true that really attractive girls may be lonely, and therefore more approachable, because many men are intimidated by them. OTOH, it’s case of “Be careful what you wish for.” Didn’t we just have poster discussing his feelings of insecurity regarding his more attractive wife? People really do tend to mate assortatively–same level of looks, wealth, intelligence, personality, etc. If there is a gap in favor of one partner in one category, there needs to be a compensatory gap in favor of the other party in another category–and both partners have to acknowledge it. Otherwise,one partner has too much “hand” as Roissy calls it.

    The problem with assortative mating is that the person’s value is subjective. For example, I’m clearly not the badboy alpha type. But in terms of being a valuable beta male prospect, I’m probably near the top. I’m confident, intelligent, physically fit, high achieving, etc. The main thing I don’t have going for me is my height (5’5″).

    If Joel is correct in saying that 8-10s seek beta value rather than alpha value, then there wouldn’t be any imbalance in the relationship.

  • Cooper

    “If Joel is correct in saying that 8-10s seek beta value rather than alpha value, then there wouldn’t be any imbalance in the relationship.”

    Wouldn’t that be awesome! (now pardon me while I laugh)

    One thing I’ve noticed with female friends of mine, whom I say are easily in the 8-9+ range, is that they are very competitive. And that them locking down a certain guy, to them, is often more about showing off what they got to their other gfs. They value a man that has visible value – one they can parade around and their gfs will immediately be jealous of.
    In regards to alpha/beta traits, alpha traits are more easily recognizable, and beta traits are only appreciated by a portion. So by that, the 8-10s aren’t going to be able to make their gfs jealous by locking down a beta – it will seem less rewarding cause she’d have to show her gfs how awesome his betaness is, (of which some gfs may never appreciate) and making they’re gfs jealous just simply won’t be as easy as it would be if they got a dominant alpha. (who’s value is more visable, at first glance)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    (Anacaona?) about having a Virgo INTJ

    I don’t know my mother’s full type I just know she is an introverted and a Virgo of course.

    Interestingly, I was very drawn to my introverted husband, and over the years we have balanced each other out.

    I often tell hubby that I like very much that he is an introverted because I cannot be ON all the time. His answer? “You surely try!”…isn’t he sweet? ;)

  • yareallypua

    @Jackie

    lol wtf?? No, the jobless and beer belly parts are me but I shower daily, twice a day if I’m going out (once in the morning for the day and once before going out) and wear cologne. Far as I know there isn’t a PUA system that recommends stinking to get girls, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that was a Manosphere/MRA idea lol Some of those guys are fucked in the head.

    “When you get down to it, it’s two people denigrating each other’s bodies.”

    That’s because you’re listening to the surface level of communication, ie – the actual words they’re saying, instead of reading the tone of voice, body-language, etc. (ie – the sub-communications).

    In interactions between highly socialized people (aka a SHB10 who’s been forced into dozens of social interactions daily since probably before puberty, and a naturally socially competant alpha type guy or PUA who’ve also been in dozens of social interactions daily), there are two layers of communication going on. The surface communication and the sub-communication. That’s why these types of people use a lot of sarcasm, innuendo, etc. They’re communicating through their eye contact, body-language, subtle nuances, etc. and the actual words they’re saying are pretty irrellevant. They’re not being deceptive by not saying what they mean, they’re being creative and enjoying the intricacies of social interaction the way a poet enjoys wordplay.

    Now take the flip-side of that, imagine a really socially awkward nerd who doesn’t go out much and doesn’t have many friends (the nerdy guy who doesn’t understand social interaction because he’s been playing Warcraft in his room for half his adulthood, or the unattractive loner girl who was teased by the Mean Girls at school and is now a socially awkward adult).

    To THAT guy, there’s only one layer of communication: What you say is what you mean. So he has trouble understanding why “bros” make fun of eachother as a way of bonding, or why girls say one thing and then mean/do another thing. He doesn’t get why people don’t just logically say exactly what they mean, and he takes what people say at face value. I’ve met girls like this too, where I literally have trouble even having a conversation with them because they take everything I say at face value and I have to leave out anything fun and just have a pure logic conversation…it’s rare to run into this with girls, especially hot ones, but they’re out there. It’s way more common in guys though.

    “To me, the YouTube was lame and derivative.”

    I’m not saying it’s genius Oscar winning writing lol But Mainstream Media very rarely gets flirting/seduction right so there aren’t a lot of examples to link. Californication tends to have a lot of “say one thing and mean something else” flirting in it too, but the show has gone downhill. The point of the YouTube clip is that Sue said it’s impossible to make fun of a girl’s weight and have her be attracted, and I’m showing that no, it’s not impossible, in fact it can increase “gina tingles” (aka sexual tension), if done in the right circumstances.

    I know this because I do it all the time lol Hell, I make jokes about roofying girls to girls I’ve just met, but I’m extremely calibrated and I know when it’s safe to make those jokes, when it’s not a good idea to make them, and how to recover if I fuck up (like the other weekend a girl’s response was a dead serious “um actually I’ve been roofied twice.” lol She didn’t slap me and call the cops though, because I knew how to keep the mood light and shimmy out of that awkwardness and we spent the night dancing, drinking, and joking about roofying eachother to take advantage of the other person).

    But like the “joking about her weight” thing, I wouldn’t recommend a newbie with no calibration run around doing that, but I also wouldn’t say adamantly “it’s IMPOSSIBLE!!!” and “FALSE.” which is really my only issue with what Sue wrote. She’s seeing things that are grey in very black & white terms. I think people should explore the grey for a better understanding of, like I say, why something works sometimes and not other times.

    “Yes yes, you have tons of sex, but what do you have to offer marriage-minded young women?”

    Relief from the boredom of marriage when they get a couple years in and start going all Eat, Pray, Love on their husband’s ass? lol I kid. Sort of.

    “What positive things can people seeking good character learn from you?”

    I’m very honest and up-front about my intentions and needs, and I know what I want. I think a lot of people in relationships could benefit from being that way instead of secretly resenting eachother and cheating behind eachother’s backs or not knowing what they want and “ending up” in bed with someone else who came along and fulfilled a need they didn’t realize they had. I actually fully support traditional monogamous relationships, as long as the people in them want to be in them and are actually doing what they want. No respect for people who get into monogamous relationships and then cheat on the side.

    “Why does she fall in love with this hideous Beast and at the end is put off by his transformation into an uber-Beta prince?”

    Haven’t seen it but I’m impressed a movie would show her being turned off by the beta side. Leave it to the French! In the Hollywood Ending, she’d love him more for becoming beta lol

    @Sue
    “False. The sheer number of supermodels with eating disorders disproves that claim.”

    Hi Sue! Yes, there are absolutely supermodels with eating disorders.

    There are also women who take care of their body, enjoy being healthy, and go to the gym regularly because they feel good about themselves. Or are you suggesting that every girl who’s body is in a healthy shape has an eating disorder and low self-esteem?

    “The most beautiful women very often do not feel that way.”

    A SHB10 isn’t just beautiful, she’s the whole package. Beautiful, socially competant, high self-esteem, confident, etc. A skinny chick who’s fucked in the head isn’t a 10. I know that you probably don’t expect guys (especially PUAs) to actually give a shit about a girl’s personality past her looks, and it’s true that a lot of guys don’t (especially newbie PUAs who are just racking up notches on the belt), but a guy who’s experienced with women absolutely takes that stuff into account and screens for it (usually because we’ve been with hot but low self-esteem girls before and seen what a mess they are lol).

    To clarify: I’m saying SHB10s with high self-esteem are fine with being teased about their weight, NOT physically hot girls with low self-esteem.

    “Also, men mistakenly assume that women enjoy being hit on.”

    Women enjoy being hit on by men who are attractive to them. Unfortunately, most of the time they’re hit on by lame guys. That’s why they walk through public with their head down not making eye contact etc., it’s too much hassle to risk making guys think they have a chance.

    “I like how Dane Cook admits “I’ve taken down some real hogs.” A player giving an honest FR!”

    lol most Naturals will fuck anything that walks. They’ll bang the SHB10 one week and then a convenient 2/10 the next week. They just love sex and don’t care. There are actually nuances/explanations for why some guys go for certain girls and why some go for anything, but I don’t imagine anyone here being interested in that stuff and my comments are long enough as it is lol

    PUAs generally start out with ugly chicks because they figure there’s no way they have a chance with hotter ones since they’re still super awkward, but as they go on they start trying to up the quality of the girls they go for because they start to feel more confident and more like they deserve the attractive ones.

    @unigirl

    “I reckon self esteem and confidence comes more from personality type and life experiences etc than looks”

    Agreed. A woman’s looks are her primary asset in terms of attraction, but if her self-worth is tied up entirely in her looks then she’s as fragile as the guy who’s self-worth is tied up in his money, his 6-pack abs, his Armani shirts, etc. The Armani guy puts up a good front, but as soon as he hits a rough patch financially or doesn’t have time to hit the gym, his self-esteem crumbles the way the woman who’s based her self-worth on her looks crumbles as she gets older or has a bad hair day. Unfortunately I think society encourages women to base their self-worth only on their looks. A lot of the bar-star types figured out how to make themselves look hot and then stopped developing themselves as human beings and are hot but with shitty personalities lol

    You would probably consider the man with a shakey foundation for his self-esteem pretty pathetic and unattractive. I find women with a shakey foundation for their self-worth the same way. :) But then, I’ve been around enough women to have run into those types and to run into the type of high self-esteem woman who knows she’s hot but also knows she’s intelligent, witty, socially adept, etc. The same way a guy might be rich with a 6-pack but also be confident, intelligent, socially adept, etc. Both of those people are attractive to the opposite sex.

    “and I reckon she probably knows that, for example she might secretly hate it while at the same time knowing a lot of people like it, so if someone commented about it it might be like confirming her worst fears, which even though some people would say she’s a ten, would still upset her.”

    When you base your self-worth on your whole as a person, you just don’t care about the “haters” anymore. That’s why Kim isn’t sitting at home crying these days because someone says she has a big ass. She has enough going on to base her self-worth on more than what people think of her ass. Whereas an amateur super-model is told by a photographer that she’s too fat and since her looks are what she bases her entire worth on, she starts making herself barf up her food in the bathroom and goes down a self-destructive path.

    “Basically what I’m saying in a roundabout way here is I agree the connection between beauty and confidence isn’t always that simple.”

    I think the main difference between the PUA culture and the mainstream media and people in general is that where normal people go “I don’t think it’s very simple, so let’s just leave it at that”, we go “okay this isn’t simple, so let’s keep analyzing it until we break it down into something that IS simple”. It’s probably obsessive-compulsive behavior on our part, but it’s why PUAs can give a 10-step system for success and normal people give an “umm I dunno, just be yourself?” system. :)

    “Not that I’m disagreeing at all or saying negs don’t work or anything like that. I am curious what the variables are, why the rule holds, why sometimes it doesn’t definately..”

    There are a TON of variables, which is why Negs are so misunderstood and the examples of them are usually way off-base. The Neg was the easiest “look how evil PUAs are, they insult girls!!!” thing for people to latch onto for sensationalism so it got publicity like crazy, but it’s like saying “look how evil nuclear power plants are, they pollute!!!” Like, there’s a little more to it than that lol

    A lot of it comes down to “Is the girl high self-esteem enough to handle being teased this way?” which takes social calibration to read.

    To relate a male version of this: When I first started hanging out around alpha type guys, I was doing the “fake it till you make it” where I gave off a lot more alpha vibe than I had on the inside (I was still new to PUA and socializing). I laughed along with them but secretly thought they were mean because they’d make fun of me or tease me about shit. But they were still nice to me in general, so I didn’t get what was going on.

    Then one day it all clicked when I realized they only teased me because they thought I could take it. I was giving off the appearance of a guy who was just like them and was confident enough to take some ribbing. Now I’m no longer faking it, that kind of teasing is just how guys bond with eachother and it makes complete sense to me, but for a new guy it’s confusing.

    So we save Negs for the really hot SHB10 type girls because we know those girls won’t be offended by them the way a 8 or less girl would (9s can go either way, they’re usually hot but can either be really low self-esteem or really high self-esteem).

    This is why newbie PUAs look like dipshits running around Negging 6s and 7s out of the blue. They’re completely uncalibrated and not surprisingly the Negs go over horribly. When PUA was still underground, you didn’t even run into the Neg concept until you were well-versed in PUA skills, but now the Neg is on MSN’s “top 10 pickup lines” type mainstream media bullshit so guys who have no social skills at all are like “oh look I just have to be an asshole and I’ll get laid!!!”

    Essentially the Neg and it’s massive publicity has given EVERYONE a gun but only a small % of us have had gun safety training lol

    @J

    “Didn’t we just have poster discussing his feelings of insecurity regarding his more attractive wife?”

    lol ya that happens to a lot of guys. It’s why most people tend to aim low and settle. The reality of bringing an attractive woman out is that you have to deal with guys hitting on her (blatantly, right in front of you, while your arm is around her), her having lots of guy friends who you know all want to sleep with her, her Facebook wall being covered in offers from guys for shit, paranoia when she’s out for a “girl’s night out” drinking with her girls, etc. etc.

    Most guys can’t handle that, you have to be extremely secure in yourself to survive dating a really attractive woman. The irony is that being insecure about other guys being able to take her from you or her cheating on you is exactly what will make you unattractive to her and make other guys or cheating more appealing to her. If you radiate confidence and truly believe that you are the best man she could ever have, she feels that way too. If you look at a lot of solid couples where the girl is extremely attractive, you’ll usually find that the guy in the relationship has no problems calling her out on silly behavior and doesn’t put her up on a ridiculously high pedestal as a person overall…and his vibe of “I don’t worry about other men because I’m better than all of them” is why the relationship is solid even with other guys throwing themselves at her daily.

    In PUA terms we call this “What you feel, she feels.”

    But is the married guy insecure about his attractive wife his wife’s fault? No, it’s his own issue, because he’s insecure and should work on his internal mindset about himself. Down the road if he keeps giving off that vibe, she’ll probably cheat on him, because if HE doesn’t think he’s good enough for her, why would SHE?

    @J

    “I actually worry about the “overcoming last minute resistance” stuff as I think it leads to horrible misunderstandings about people actually want at beast and FRAs at worst.”

    Jesus, don’t get me started lol While the Neg has made it’s way into the mainstream for every random uncalibrated socially awkward moron to abuse, I’m just thankful the LMR-busting stuff never made it into the mainstream. That would be fucking terrifying. LMR stuff is something you learn about after you’re already socially calibrated from going out and training a lot…putting it in the hands of a newbie, especially one with bitter woman-hating issues is fucking dangerous.

    It’s kind of like if the mainstream media suddenly started talking about some ninja death touch move in a martial art. Within the system, you weren’t supposed to learn about that move until you had enough training to understand the nuances of it and when NOT to use it, etc. But the MSM goes “look!! here’s how to do the ninja death touch!!! it’s the only move you need!!!” and all these randoms go “oh sweet ninja death touch time!!” while the guys running the ninja schools are like “wtf? no you’re all fucking it up omg it wasn’t supposed to be used like this” lol The knowledge itself wasn’t bad or evil in its original context, but taken out of that context and abused it’s a recipe for disaster.

    @J (again lol)

    “An alpha can exhibit feminine traits (see: jersey shore guys with overly plucked eyebrows who go for pedicures!) for instance.”

    Agreed. I actually think the Manosphere has too black & white a view on what Alpha is, due to the crowd the Manosphere attracting tending to be older guys already stubborn and set in black & white mentalities and looking to jump on bandwagons. The PUA community tends to be more flexible with what constitutes Alpha because while we have the bear-fighting lumberjack types we also had the fuzzy hat leather pant metrosexual types.

    So to us, Alpha is more about “Are you doing what you want to do and living by your personal set of beliefs and principles, and not giving a shit what people think?” which accounts for how a a masculine guy can do some feminine things and still be “alpha”. The really intense loner artist who’s passionate about his painting/music with really strong opinions and a strong frame, can be as alpha as the stereotypical frat bro.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PUA

      Heads up, I’m not going to allow you to use HUS as a platform to defend PUAs. You’ve already admitted in a previous thread that moral considerations are not relevant when seducing women, e.g. “we do whatever works,” and that’s enough for me.

      I do not want HUS associated with some of the tactics you defend.

  • Ramble

    @ J:

    I’m endorsing ‘just the more generic “be masculine”.’

    Same here! ;-)

    Alright, girls. Define it, and be specific.

    And saying things like, “don’t be feminine”, or “be assertive, but not TOO assertive” are not helpful.

  • Ramble

    I believe a couple of supermodels have written memoirs detailing their struggles with food.

    Right. A couple.

    Again, I am no expert, but, as far as I can tell, most of the stories come from girls that never made it all that big. And, I am confident that most “super” models do have their stories: they decided to go on this crash diet once, they avoided X for a month, etc.

    But, by and large, most of the really well known models ate real food and did not work out 18 hours per day.

    However, that script is not that interesting, especially to those girls that want to look like those models but have not been able to accomplish it (probably because of genetics).

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    Wouldn’t that be awesome! (now pardon me while I laugh)

    One thing I’ve noticed with female friends of mine, whom I say are easily in the 8-9+ range, is that they are very competitive. And that them locking down a certain guy, to them, is often more about showing off what they got to their other gfs. They value a man that has visible value – one they can parade around and their gfs will immediately be jealous of.
    In regards to alpha/beta traits, alpha traits are more easily recognizable, and beta traits are only appreciated by a portion. So by that, the 8-10s aren’t going to be able to make their gfs jealous by locking down a beta – it will seem less rewarding cause she’d have to show her gfs how awesome his betaness is, (of which some gfs may never appreciate) and making they’re gfs jealous just simply won’t be as easy as it would be if they got a dominant alpha. (who’s value is more visable, at first glance)

    Wouldn’t introversion-extraversion factor into this? People (men or women, regardless of attractiveness) who want to impress their friends are usually extraverts.

    The problem with introverted 5-7s is that they have low self-confidence and thus an alpha is much better at getting a relationship with them. Unlike them, it may be possible that 8-10s are use to getting regularly hit on by alphas and thus don’t need that alpha validation.

    At the very least with an 8-10 there’s little risk of getting strung along while she pines away for her alpha. If she wants an alpha, she has plenty of options and wouldn’t be wasting her time with me…

  • Mike C

    Really! I had no idea! How interesting – male sexuality needs to be tamed by the female in order for marriage to occur. Why is this a tale worth telling? ***Because without monogamous marriage, there is no productive civilization.***

    So…can we say that it is best for everyone if the male sexual desire for variety is suppressed? :)

    Boy…I should really pass and not take the bait but along with that is suppression of female hypergamy which arguably is more negative to productive civilization. I really truly have absolutely zero interest at all in debating this except to point out the simple fact that many productive civilizations had arrangements with marriage and men having mistresses. I don’t point that out to morally justify it, but it invalidates the bolded part I asterisked. The more correct statement is that productive civilization REQUIRES heavy male investment in offspring which the vast majority of time coincides with monogamous marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I really was teasing re suppressing male sexuality. I agree 100% that civilization requires tempering the sexual impulses of both genders. One cannot be a hedonist and a PMOS at the same time.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Really! I had no idea! How interesting – male sexuality needs to be tamed by the female in order for marriage to occur. Why is this a tale worth telling? Because without monogamous marriage, there is no productive civilization.

    This story is older than dirt the Tale of Gilgamesh is probably the oldest written version in which the wild man Enkidu is pacified with the help of Shamhat that calms his violent ways with sex. The fairytale of beauty and the beast is a “white washed” version of this same concept. The truth is that both genders need to tamper each other dark sides (hypergamy and variety) to create the communion the perfect balance of Ying and Yang, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    The truth is that ***both*** genders need to tamper each other dark sides (hypergamy and variety) to create the communion the perfect balance of Ying and Yang, YMMV.

    Ana,

    Cosign.

  • yareallypua

    @Anacoana

    “Everytime I hear “I’m a man” as a justification for doing or not doing something I cringe “What big guy’s dick is going to fall off if you watch a rom com?” makes me look at them as very childlike and insecure. If you don’t like something is okay just not to like it, doing stuff because “Manly men don’t do X” is really off putting, IMO.”

    Ya, see this is what I mean in that last bit of my comment above about Alpha. “Am I doing what I want to do?” If they guy doesn’t want to watch a rom com because he thinks they’re stupid, that’s knowing what he wants and being alpha (he’s made a decision based on his own likes/dislikes). Or if he doesn’t like them but decides you’re important to him and he wants to spend time with you and knows YOU like rom coms he might decide to give them a chance and watch one, but again that’s him making a decision of “this person’s happiness is important to me and watching this will make them happy, so I’m deciding to give it a chance.”

    But if he doesn’t want to watch it because he’s worried it would be un-manly, that’s insecure and lame. He’s letting “the definition of being a man” decide his actions, instead of his own personal feelings. That’s why that behavior puts you off.

    @Cooper
    “One thing I’ve noticed with female friends of mine, whom I say are easily in the 8-9+ range, is that they are very competitive. And that them locking down a certain guy, to them, is often more about showing off what they got to their other gfs.”

    lol this is why if I send flowers on Valentine’s Day I send them (or deliver them in person) to my girl’s place of employment instead of just giving them to her when she gets home. I know half the fun for her is the reactions other girls at her office have. From the out-loud admiration of “omg your boyfriend is amazing” to the jealous thoughts of “pfft wtf how come THAT bitch got flowers and I didn’t??” This generally isn’t a conscious thought (like “haha fuck you bitches look how awesome my life is!!!”), but subconsciously it’s way more exciting for her than just coming home to flowers even though the gift is ultimately the same gift.

    @Sue
    “I’m not an expert on this issue.”

    Your “False.” claim was very adamant for someone who admits they’re not an expert on the issue. Like I say, I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that you’re looking at a grey issue in very black & white terms. I think it’s okay to allow a little discussion leeway when someone says “my friends and I can consistently break your rule”…like let’s figure out what the grey shades are about instead of covering our ears and pretending they don’t exist. Scientific process and all that. :)

    @INTJ
    “Unlike them, it may be possible that 8-10s are use to getting regularly hit on by alphas and thus don’t need that alpha validation.”

    This actually leads into a really large concept that most people don’t grasp. When you’re an extremely hot 10 girl, you are surrounded by rich guys offering you trips to Paris, every guy surrounding you at a club is a tall jacked up dude with a 6-pack, every guy hitting on you has a Ferrari and an expensive beach-side condo…in celebrity circles everyone has had some TV roles and shit…like, all the things that a normal average guy thinks he needs before he can approach that 10, she’s SURROUNDED by them.

    Hell, if she’s accomplished in her life then half the time she HAS those things herself (lots of money, fancy car, nice place to live, etc.).

    Thus, while those things are signs of high value to average people, to the really high-status people those things lose that value. When you’re a millionaire around your friends, you feel awesome. When you’re at a party with millionaires, you feel average.

    This is why when a guy like Mystery, with his fruity fuzzy hat and black nails and leather pants, or a goofy looking guy like Tyler Durden (5’8″ balding ginger with pale white skin and an annoying voice) strolls into a group to talk to that girl, with 100% confidence expecting her to like him, she’s completely intrigued. Because what she’s looking at as high value is “How confident is this guy? How strong is his frame? Can I test him without him caving like a little bitch? Can he handle himself around all these rich 6-pack guys and still be this confident?”

    She’s looking at a completely different channel of value than the 5-8s are (they’re more likely to consider the rich, 6-pack, etc. as high value because like you suggest, they aren’t surrounded by that the way 9s-10s are).

    Guys have a REALLY hard time grasping this concept. And a lot of average girls who hang out with an average social circle have a hard time grasping it too.

    A buddy of mine who’s a doctor and is used to that being a high status thing in his social circle, went to a mansion party with celebrities and stuff and he said it was so weird because everyone was really cool and chill but everyone was from totally different walks of life but no one was trying to impress eachother or anything. What was going on was that everyone there was so high-value in terms of money, celebrity status, careers, looks, etc. that that stuff didn’t mean anything and what defined high-value in that environment were people’s internal value.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PUA

      “I’m not an expert on this issue.”

      Your “False.” claim was very adamant for someone who admits they’re not an expert on the issue.

      I am not an expert on anorexia, but I am an expert on what produces the tingle :)

      Jokes about weight do not do that. Honestly, I have no dog in the fight. I think guys are better off not going there, but feel free to tell them otherwise. I’d say that negging is the PUA Achilles heel. That one tactic gets PUAs and Game more negative press than everything else combined. Even the word itself implies more than playful teasing. It’s a PR nightmare, but go ahead and neg away.

      being alpha (he’s made a decision based on his own likes/dislikes).

      Ah, do we have another definition of alpha to consider? How do you define it?

      When you’re an extremely hot 10 girl, you are surrounded by rich guys offering you trips to Paris, every guy surrounding you at a club is a tall jacked up dude with a 6-pack, every guy hitting on you has a Ferrari and an expensive beach-side condo

      What if the 10 doesn’t go to clubs or chase rich guys? What if she avoids players because she wants to marry and have a family? It sounds like perhaps you are watching too many rom coms :)

      a mansion party with celebrities and stuff and he said it was so weird because everyone was really cool and chill but everyone was from totally different walks of life but no one was trying to impress eachother or anything. What was going on was that everyone there was so high-value in terms of money, celebrity status, careers, looks, etc. that that stuff didn’t mean anything and what defined high-value in that environment were people’s internal value.

      Seriously, dude. If you want to know how to live a good and purposeful life, and to have awesome relationships, study celebrities. If you can’t get access to their parties, try reading People or US Weekly.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    But if he doesn’t want to watch it because he’s worried it would be un-manly, that’s insecure and lame. He’s letting “the definition of being a man” decide his actions, instead of his own personal feelings. That’s why that behavior puts you off.

    Except that a lot of cads that bed lots of women do this very often IME and even though it drives me insane I don’t think all women care, probably because they I agree I dunno.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble
    “But, by and large, most of the really well known models ate real food and did not work out 18 hours per day.”
    ====
    Ramble, there is a really recent documentary about former supermodels called “About Face.” It was on HBO about a week ago– probably it’s online somewhere by now?

    Anyway, all of them were talking about the insane, unhealthy, anorexic things they had to do to get down to 100lbs and 3-4″ under 6 ft tall. Many of them were speaking about their sustained physical damage.

    One of them (Carol Alt– from the 80s) said that she just didn’t eat for a while, let her body feed itself off its reserves. She went from 150 lbs to 105 lbs, I think.

    I don’t know how many models or tv actors you have seen up close IRL, but they are WAFER thin. Like, it pained me to look at them. A healthy person will look “fat” next to them and a “normal” person will look HUGE. You just can’t even imagine — the ones I saw looked like meth users level of skinny.

  • Jackie

    @Susan
    “The original fairy tale is a metaphor. The beast is male sexuality, which the beauty tames, transforming the beast into husband material.

    Really! I had no idea!”
    ====
    Susan, I started googling since J’s comment, and apparently there are a whole *slew* of Grimm’s Fairytales that are metaphors, many of them having to do with sexuality.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ramble, there is a really recent documentary about former supermodels called “About Face.” It was on HBO about a week ago– probably it’s online somewhere by now?

    Jackie had you seen documentaries and confessionals of ex-catholics? I remember some ex-nun talking about all the sex the sisters were having with each other and priests…
    Don’t trust this “sources” as 100% truth. Everybody that leaves an important social cluster bashes it to heavens above. Ex-Democrats, Ex- Republicans, Ex-Mormons, Ex-Evangelicals, Ex-Muslims…they always remember the worst but then if millions of people remain and are functional and happy.
    I don’t deny that there is pressure to be skinny but the way some women handle it depends a lot of themselves and their upbringing. Some women will hit the gym more often, some others are naturally underweight (those bitches :p), some others will starve themselves to death and really I had friends in college that were no models that starve themselves for a lot of different reasons, to save money, because they didn’t liked the food, lack of time…, some others will modify their diets or do crash diets and some others will try to find a place to model for a less skinny designers, some others will simply quit and do something else. There is a lot more going on behind this disorders, YMMV.

  • Darsh

    @Susan
    “The original fairy tale is a metaphor. The beast is male sexuality, which the beauty tames, transforming the beast into husband material.

    Really! I had no idea!”
    ====
    Susan, I started googling since J’s comment, and apparently there are a whole *slew* of Grimm’s Fairytales that are metaphors, many of them having to do with sexuality.

    I’m absolutely baffled that you guys didn’t already know this…

  • unigirl

    @Yareally, totally get what you mean now, ten as a whole, personality included, you don’t hear that often.. But I’ve always secretly suspected… And that’s why we need more about girl game!
    After all girls start learning about how to be physically attractive from day one, after a certain point there’s not much else you can do really. It’d be so great if there was more concrete advice about becoming appearing confident and charming/ faking till you make it, but in a feminine way. It could just be me (I’m a woman so I obviously have an idea of masculinity in my head becuase it’s what I’m attracted to) but it seems like femininity is much harder to define. Perhaps the guys would say the same of masculinity though?
    You hear (read?) so much as well about women’s self esteem being too high, just concentrate on your looks etc but I’ve always thought that awkwardness can affect women’s chances just as much as mens.

  • unigirl

    Like I imagine feminine confidence for example to be more subtle, less overt, so more difficult to fake if it doesn’t come naturally.

  • Jackie

    @Pua

    Hi Pua,
    Thank you for correcting me; I am glad to know you practice hygiene! Truly! I suspected I was right about your obesity and joblessness. ;) Weren’t you also the person who likes to wear ripped clothing and cruddy jeans?

    By the way, would you be able to share some background on your upbringing? Is your dad proud of you, or disgusted? How has your dad been a role model to you? What do your parents tell relatives and friends about you? Are they proud, disinterested, ashamed?

    It definitely is fuel for the fire of the nature vs nurture debate! ;)
    =====
    “there are two layers of communication going on. The surface communication and the sub-communication”

    Dude, 70% of communication is nonverbal. Did you ever think that some people– maybe even those who are not Pua’s or SHB10s– possess the ability to read subtext and respond in kind? And possibly they have good enough character to not exploit this, or sexualize it?

    The movie I suggested (It Happened One Night) does the same thing you described, but without ever resorting to such lame dialogue as the movie you linked. To be honest, you just seem so lowbrow to the point of caricature that I honestly think you are trolling.

    If you are indeed serious, to paraphrase, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Pua, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
    =======
    “The point of the YouTube clip is that Sue said it’s impossible to make fun of a girl’s weight and have her be attracted, and I’m showing that no, it’s not impossible, in fact it can increase “gina tingles” (aka sexual tension), if done in the right circumstances.”

    Meh, it was part of the script. And if it was done so well, how come the movie wasn’t a hit? Why didn’t it resonate with more women besides Dane Cook fans? It’s an example, but it’s a weak example and you need a strong one to sell your point. Nice try though. ;)
    ========
    Okay, the fact that you “joke” about roofying girls is as creepy as creep, seeing as you advocate doing “whatever it takes” for you to get sex.

    In fact, I would estimate you are not as good at reading subtext as you think. Because I would be willing to bet that what you think of as “joking” is actually cringe-inducing and mortifying to normal people who find roofies disgusting.

    I can’t possibly think of a way for a guy to make jokes about drugging and date-raping girls that is done well. (Maybe GOB from “Arrested Development” because we’re laughing at how pathetic HE is. He ends up roofying himself!) Any examples of how you made this humor work in this area?
    ========
    “I’m very honest and up-front about my intentions and needs, and I know what I want. I think a lot of people in relationships could benefit from being that way instead of secretly resenting eachother and cheating behind eachother’s backs or not knowing what they want and “ending up” in bed with someone else who came along and fulfilled a need they didn’t realize they had.”

    Pua, that’s great about honesty! Most of us have already know this, though, and have discussed it thoroughly. Is there some new ground that you have uncovered? Otherwise I am not seeing what we can learn from you, especially as you advocate so many methods that directly oppose Susan’s mission statement.

    The only thing I can see is that we can learn is to recognize your techniques so we can avoid people like you for relationship prospects. In that way, it is possible you may be of great service.

    Re: La Belle et La Bete– You would definitely appreciate the French film, I think! When the Beast is transfigured into the Prince, he asks if she likes him now that he’s handsome and perfect. Beauty hesitates, looks unsure and says, “I have to think about it.” ;-)

    Thanks again for responding to my viewpoints, Pua.

  • Cooper

    “Seriously, dude. If you want to know how to live a good and purposeful life, and to have awesome relationships, study celebrities. If you can’t get access to their parties, try reading People or US Weekly.”

    LMAO. *high fives*

  • J

    If Joel is correct in saying that 8-10s seek beta value rather than alpha value, then there wouldn’t be any imbalance in the relationship.

    I think it depends more on personality than HB rating.

    I’m not saying that you don’t have a high value or wouldn’t bring anything to the table with a nice looking woman, just that things really do need to even out overall. And I wouldn’t obsess on height. While the ‘sphere places a lot of importance on it, I think most women just want a man who is taller than they are, not a giant necessarily. And I see growing numbers of women with men a bit shorter than they are. It seems less important to women than it used to be.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’m absolutely baffled that you guys didn’t already know this…

    I would say that the majority of people doesn’t know about the roots of the tales in general, is one of those things that they don’t teach just to everyone. I knew because of writing, mythology and symbolism classes. Not everyone gets exposed to those, YMMV.

  • J

    Alright, girls. Define it, and be specific.

    That’s an essay, not a short answer, Ramble.

    To be brief though, I think real masculinity has to do with mastery of self and of environment. It’s knowing how to handle yourself and situations in a competent manner that inspires confidence in others. In terms of male-fe,ale relationships, it what allws a women to let down her guard and place herself in your hands. For example, I’m a real stickler for autonomy, but I knew that if I had a child, I would have to surrender some of that and allow DH to take care of me while I took care of our kids. I was able to do that because he has a masculine bearing that inspired my trust. I trust him to handle whatever life throws his way.

  • J

    @SW, Jackie and Ana

    Ana–Great catch with Gilgamesh! It’s a prime example that I forgotten about. And Enkiddu is covered with hair, like the Beast.

    I’ll tell you guys a secret if you promise not tell anyone else here. ;-) All fairytales are about sex for women and attaining manhood (for men). Their purpose is to help us grow up.

    @Jackie

    That really is a beatiful film. Your are right about the door and the trransformation. Here’s a bit more symbolism: The house represents female sexuality–magical and confusing things happen there, yet, despite her fears, Belle is swept along by the magic–including the mirror that invites her to examine her heart and takes her from being daddy’s girl to being Madame Bete.

  • J

    When the Beast is transfigured into the Prince, he asks if she likes him now that he’s handsome and perfect. Beauty hesitates, looks unsure and says, “I have to think about it.”

    LOL. It’s the Beast who carries us over the threshold, but the Prince is needed to pay the mortgage. Seriously, a guy needs both sets of traits.

    I would suggest that the success of Twilight comes from the idea of an average girl taming that dangerous, woman-eating vampire and then watching him sparkle.

  • Darsh

    I would say that the majority of people doesn’t know about the roots of the tales in general, is one of those things that they don’t teach just to everyone. I knew because of writing, mythology and symbolism classes. Not everyone gets exposed to those, YMMV.

    Well, yeah. But you, Susan, Jackie, J and the rest of the lot have never struck me as the most uninformed people in this world.

    There is a time for everything, I suppose.

  • Joel

    ”The problem with assortative mating is that the person’s value is subjective. For example, I’m clearly not the badboy alpha type. But in terms of being a valuable beta male prospect, I’m probably near the top. I’m confident, intelligent, physically fit, high achieving, etc. The main thing I don’t have going for me is my height (5’5″).

    If Joel is correct in saying that 8-10s seek beta value rather than alpha value, then there wouldn’t be any imbalance in the relationship.”

    You have nothing to worry about. My 7th grade teacher was a 36 year old woman married to a 41 year old. She 6 feet tall on flat shoes, at least a double D(and it was all natural), had a very feminine face, flowing dark hair, very intelligent and a very dedicated mother.

    Her first and only boyfriend, the man she married, is a 5’5” scrawny guy with thick facial hair, doesn’t have a Tom Cruise face, isn’t a master of game, isn’t a CEO and doesn’t make that much. But his wife saw him as Alpha and that is enough. She met him when she was 16, dumped her Brad Pitt boyfriend(who happened to be the son of the wealthiest man in their village) and went against her father to be with him.

    So this 5’5” guy married a hotbabe 10, was the first and only man she’s ever been with, sexually, and had a daughter with her, which means that he managed to increase his sexual market value by creating another beauty.

    Their daughter is 6’1” and even more good-looking. She inherited her mother’s body, her breasts, her charm, and her mother’s talent for high-end mathematics. I’d say this beta guy more than fulfilled his ancestors desires.

    I know another hot babe 10, this one is naturally blonde and had breast surgery to decrease the massive size of her breasts, but her breasts are still far larger than most women. She’s 5’11′, both her parents are doctors with her father as the Hospital’s director.

    She was schooled in the best establishments of education, never bothered with the Bad boys and is dating a very average-looking guy from an arts school. He’s 5’6”. Both are from Sweden, making the guy far shorter than most men from Sweden(6 feet for most guys over the age of 25, over 6’2” for younger men) and they’re both very happy with each other.

    I observe far more average to slightly below average young men with dauntingly beautiful women than I see dashing-looking men with very attractive women. And there’s a reason for that. Sexual Utopia means sexual frenzy; the vast majority of the young Brad Pitts are sexing up women of neutral to low SMV.

    The women which SMV is equal to young Brad Pitt or superior aren’t interested in being the trash bin of young men so they do what any intelligent human being does; holds out for someone with integrity.

    Maybe the beta male is more considerate and caring than the Alpha male because the chances of striking Hot babe 7-10 is rare, but so what? Most people don’t brush their teeth because of love. They do it to preserve their teeth. Bottom line, it doesn’t matter at all.

    Mate, it doesn’t make sense to go for an average-looking woman when there are so many very attractive women with much going on for them interested in finding a commitment-oriented guy. Who you think is more likely to be interested in a LTR/marriage? Frat Alpha males or the guys from engineering universities?

    Go for it, start a conversation with the hot babe 10 of your dreams. You won’t regret it.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Well, yeah. But you, Susan, Jackie, J and the rest of the lot have never struck me as the most uninformed people in this world.

    I think is a function of modern world. Symbolism is not big anymore and again most people read fairytales when they are children so they don’t remember the power behind them. So is not about information more about explaining certain things. We are rediscovering the reason why monogamy was so heavily enforced in the past here on HUS, I’m pretty sure you can ask educated people about this and they will probably be completely clueless about that too. Is the function of times.

    I would suggest that the success of Twilight comes from the idea of an average girl taming that dangerous, woman-eating vampire and then watching him sparkle.

    I would also add that Twilight is also a retelling of the legend of Psyche and Eros which is also another version of Beauty and the Beast.

    You should read Spotlight by Professor Granger it not only explains the success of the books but also why is so freaking hated, specially in America.

  • Joel

    Mrs Walsh is right. Women in the fashion industry are verbally forced to starving themselves and it also happens to men, too. Men are told to pick up smoking because in a young man’s metabolism the consumption of nicotine holds the weight down. They expect this of the male models to give a ”Germanic” look, if that makes any sense.

    Speaking of starving topmodels, tell me about it. I went to my Country of origin to spend the holidays, been there last 3 months ago. This girl I’ve always thought was cute and had potential to be a great wife someday, went from having a curvy body to being a walking skeleton. She had thickly beautiful legs, a nice behind, and nice breasts, and now her legs look like sticks, her butt has gone missing along with her breasts.

    Need I say that she had received an invitation to become a model 3 months ago? What made me sad the most is that her hair which was so luscious and thick(and so blonde) had lost her thickness, was shorter, looked very frail and her natural colour also died off?

  • yareallypua

    @Sue
    “I am not an expert on anorexia, but I am an expert on what produces the tingle”

    I didn’t realize you pick up women lol

    “What if the 10 doesn’t go to clubs or chase rich guys?”

    She’s never chasing them. They’re chasing her. That’s kind of the point.

    As a friendly out-going person (part of being a 10 is that you’re not an anti-social hermit recluse who hates interacting with people), every guys she talks to, even the clerk at the grocery store she simply accidentally made eye contact with, assumes that he’s got a chance with her and chases her.

    The rich good-looking guys are just more aggressive about it than the grocery store clerk and they make an effort to be in her life and be a part of her social circle trying to be around her. She’s too polite to say “Fuck off” and they hide their intentions through just wanting to be friends, so she’s stuck with a ton of orbiters.

    “What if she avoids players because she wants to marry and have a family?”

    What if I avoid dust because I don’t like to be dirty. Does dust all just vanish from the world around me? Nope. She can have no interest in any of these guys (I never said she was sleeping with any of them, or even flirting with them and she can even be actively repulsed by them), but they’ll stay orbiting her hoping for their chance.

    @Jackie
    “Anyway, all of them were talking about the insane, unhealthy, anorexic things they had to do to get down to 100lbs and 3-4″ under 6 ft tall.”

    So the question to ask then is: Why are they torturing themselves while Christina Agueliera, Jessica Simpson, etc. are chubbing up and going “eh, fuck what you all think.” Where is the point where the starving model can go “fuck it” and do what she wants and why does that shift in her behavior happen?

    What are the factors, internal and external, that influence this shift from “approval seeking self-destructive behavior” to “internally validated and embracing themselves”? Imagine the good it would do women if we could solve THAT question in this comment section and provide a step by step guide of “here’s how to value yourself as a person instead of torturing yourself trying to live up to society’s standards”. :)

    Either models all starve themselves and are horrible and unhealthy and mentally fucked up, or again it’s a shade of grey where only certain types of people with certain outlooks in certain situations behave in that way and you can’t paint the broad brush.

    @Sue
    “Heads up, I’m not going to allow you to use HUS as a platform to defend PUAs.”

    Only reason I’m posting is because you made a very inaccurate statement that is very easy to disprove because it doesn’t hold up when pressure-tested in the real world. I don’t care if people use it as a tactic or not, I’m just saying 2 + 2 does not equal 5, even if it equaling 4 isn’t how it seems like it SHOULD be.

    This isn’t a judgement on you as a person, it’s just to clarify facts. If anyone else had written that I’d have commented the same way too. :)

    @unigirl
    “ten as a whole, personality included, you don’t hear that often..”

    Agreed. That’s generally because most guys will never be with a really hot girl, so they just assume any girl that’s hotter than average is “perfect”. Whereas a guy who’s been around a lot of hot girls (whether they’re a player, or a guy who was raised with a lot of sisters, or a gay guy who hangs out with a lot of girls) knows that looks are only a part of the equation when you’re talking about an actual “SHB10″.

    A lot of girls actually have the same outlook. They’re average themselves, their friends are average, and the hottest girls were the Mean Girls in school who give off the air of being superior, so they have the same mentality as the average guys where they don’t realize that those girls aren’t perfect because there’s more to it than just looks. Plus they see the average guys I mentioned above wishing they could get those girls (because those guys are only looking at their looks, remember), so the world around them doesn’t really re-enforce to girls that the high-value guys really do take a girl’s personality into consideration.

    “And that’s why we need more about girl game!”

    Agreed, that’s why I’m sharing the perspective from the opposite side of the coin. You can’t have solid girl game if you don’t understand where guys are coming from and you can’t understand how to avoid players if you just stereotype them into a cartoon and snuff them out when they try to explain to you their perspective.

    That would be like a general in a war just blindly charging in instead of doing some recon work to understand the other army.

    But hey, fuck me for daring to bring up the elephants in the room in a comment section that seems like it’s here for discussions right? lol

    “After all girls start learning about how to be physically attractive from day one, after a certain point there’s not much else you can do really.”

    Unfortunately because society focuses so heavily on defining girls’ worth by their physical appearance, girls aren’t given a lot of incentive to improve themselves beyond their looks. A 20yo with a hot body who learned how to do her makeup and dress slutty has the world at her feet, especially if she goes out with friends to drink and dance at bars. She’s pretty much got super-powers, so why would she bother spending time working on her inner confidence, or trying to be a positive person, or meet a variety of people so snuff out prejudices and racist outlooks, etc.?

    Guys are encouraged to focus on the rest of their life and ignore the looks stuff. So we have a bunch of guys who are great Providers, but they suck at grooming, dressing, and generally presenting themselves well.

    Feminism encouraged focusing on the rest of their lives and ignoring the looks stuff. So we have a bunch of super accomplished women who ignored their looks and thought their accomplishments would make up for it.

    Society has sold a lot of people a lot of pretty lies, and I think we’re all kind of waking up to that now and trying to play catch-up. For the guys it’s getting into PUA/Manosphere stuff because no one was attracted to their provider traits, for the girls it’s getting a boob-job at 40 and a Plenty of Fish profile because their career success didn’t land them a husband. It’s all pretty fucked up ultimately.

    I think the next generation will be fascinating to watch because they’ll be starting from after this dating market shitshow we’re all in. :) I think the whole “men don’t want to grow up and just play videogames all day now” trend is actually a result of this wake-up. I’m not sure what the equivalent would be on the female side yet.

    As a male, to be a high-value attractive long-term partner, focus on the provider traits, but don’t forget to do upkeep on your non-provider traits (alpha stuff, socializing, grooming, etc., which is how you get your foot in the door),

    As a female, to be a high-value attractive long-term partner, focus on accomplishing shit (become an all-around quality person instead of skating by on your looks, do some charity work and meet people from different backgrounds and learn empathy, delve into some Tony Robbins self-help type stuff and learn to foster an optimistic outlook on life, learn to enjoy eating healthy and taking care of yourself), but don’t forget to do upkeep on your looks (because that’s how you get your foot in the door).

    In fact, fuck it, here you go, here’s my advice to women looking for a marriage-material man (I’m not one, but I’m friends with lots lol):

    You wouldn’t believe how many normal nice guys I know (aka not PUAs, just the normal good quality marriage material guys) who just want to find a girl who 1) is at average to decent in looks, 2) takes care of her body/health (ie – eating proper and getting regular exercise) so she isn’t on any kind of medications (depression, bi-polar, stomach stuff, sleeping pills, etc. etc. etc.), and 3) doesn’t hate life and think every problem in her life is the worst problem ever and complain about it and suck them into a bunch of depressing drama over it, and can instead just be optimistic and upbeat about life in general.

    Like, seriously, if you can do those 3 things you are SET. You will be attractive to like 90% of the marriage-quality guys out there, I’m not kidding. Any guy I know who complains about his girlfriend, wife, or girls in general, you can boil their complaint down to those 3 things.

    You don’t even have to be a smokin’ hot supermodel barbie. You just have to not be that girl who looks at the smokin’ hot supermodel barbie and thinks “ugh, what a slut. She’s probably dumb too.” (hello there negative outlook!) lol

    Seriously, most guys set the bar really low for girls. The problem is with the whole “If you can’t handle me at my worst” rah rah girl power thing, society has encouraged girls to be as shitty as they possibly can as a test to make sure a guy is “worth it”.

    Here’s a thought: How about you try being your best as often as possible, the way us guys do? Don’t worry, we’ll still stay with you if you have a bad day here and there, but how about overall we change that quote to “If you can’t handle me at my worst, don’t worry, most of the time I’m pretty fun to be around and take care of myself and I won’t come through the door bitching about how horrible work was every day for the rest of our lives. :)”

    lol this’ll be a popular comment I’m sure. :)

    “I’ve always thought that awkwardness can affect women’s chances just as much as mens.”

    Men will forgive a lot more. A girl can work at McDonald’s and if she’s cute a guy will still want to date her. But you have to consider whether those guys are quality guys themselves. :)

    @Jackie
    lol obesity is stretching it, I’m not 300lbs or anything. But you definitely wouldn’t look at me and go “man that guy must get laid like crazy”. The ripped clothes/jeans is me, too. No one cares about that stuff. If someone is paying attention to the rips on your jean it’s because you’re not captivating enough to keep them focused on your personality and the interaction you’re having with them.

    It doesn’t HURT to have nice clothes and a fancy watch and shoes and everything, but it’s not necessary and a guy definitely shouldn’t base his self-worth on those external things.

    “By the way, would you be able to share some background on your upbringing? ”

    Sure. I’m a normal guy. Two parent household (30+ year loving marriage, never saw them fight a day in my life, and there was no cheating or anything), and raised in a small town with good morals and values. I hold doors open for people and give up my seat on the bus and I’ll carry a chocolate bar wrapper in my pocket around for an hour till I find a garbage can because I was raised not to litter.

    I got hit with acne and gained weight in junior high and became more and more of a computer nerd recluse from there. Wasted my teenage years and early adulthood in my computer room until I finally got sick of being alone and decided I needed to change my life around. From there I clawed my way up of my own accord into more of a social life and working on my self-esteem, and then stumbled across PUA stuff which gave me a set of steps and a general path to follow and from there I’ve had more adventures and personal growth in less than ten years than most people do in their lifetime.

    “Is your dad proud of you, or disgusted?”

    He’s just happy I didn’t become the Batman theatre shooter guy lol I don’t share the details of my lovelife with him although he knows I’m not planning to get married. All he knows is that the girls who know me have nothing but good things to say about me.

    “How has your dad been a role model to you?”

    Actually he was apparently pretty cool when he was younger. Motorcycle, musician, etc. But I didn’t know any of that about him till recently. To me he was just a normal dad.

    A lot of people ask “if you have a son, will you teach him pickup?” The honest answer is that I hope NOT to have to. Ideally I’ll simply let my hypothetical future son see me being an out-going social guy and encourage him to join activities that get him out of the house and interacting with other people, and he’ll be socially adjusted and normal and not need to go the route I had to.

    “What do your parents tell relatives and friends about you? Are they proud, disinterested, ashamed?”

    All anyone has to say about me are good things, seriously, lol I’m more of an ass online than I am in person because I just don’t care enough to sugar-coat things in a discussion like this because that’s a waste of time (I write enough as it is just trying to explain concepts let alone make them taste good).

    But since I’m pretty under the radar about what I do I’ll use a buddy of mine as an example of what you’re REALLY asking, he’s a massive Natural. He’s banged like 100 new chicks in a year, and he treats them like absolute garbage. Like, he makes me seem like an angel. He’s not a PUA, he’s just a good-looking charismatic guy who’s really selfish and narcissistic and knows how to get in girls’ pants and then ditches them when they get annoying to him.

    And EVERYONE (his family, their family friends, his friends, relatives, females as well as males, etc.) knows his reputation. You would think everyone would be like “what a loser, fuck that guy blah blah” and avoid him, but what actually happens is that because he’s SO congruent and unapologetic for it, and because he’s very charming and friendly to everyone in general, they just go “chuckle, oh PlayerName (shake their head with a grin)”.

    He completely gets away with it and make jokes etc. with that “boys will be boys” tone of voice. But he also never denies anything they accuse him of. He doesn’t pretend to not be a player.

    This concept is mirrored in society’s reaction to Tiger Woods. No one gives a shit when a rockstar fucks a bunch of groupies on tour because we expect that to happen. But Tiger seemed look a good wholesome family man so the backlash when people found out he was doing the same thing a rockstar was, was epic.

    Congruency is actually a really neat psychological concept and it reaches into a LOT of seduction concepts.

    “Did you ever think that some people– maybe even those who are not Pua’s or SHB10s– possess the ability to read subtext and respond in kind?”

    Yep, they do. But when they watch a YouTube clip and go “I don’t get it they’re just insulting eachother that’s stupid” that tells me that in that particular instance, they aren’t looking at the sub-communications.

    “And possibly they have good enough character to not exploit this, or sexualize it?”

    Getting into a moral judgement here, careful. Some would say having a good body and wearing a short skirt, makeup, etc. is exploiting/sexualizing it, but not many people would say that was an indication of bad character.

    “Meh, it was part of the script.”

    This is a completely true statement.

    “And if it was done so well, how come the movie wasn’t a hit?”

    lol where is this train of logic going? What possible relevance does this have? If I show you a picture of someone smiling in a photo and say “This is an example of someone smiling.” would you say “Well how come it isn’t on the cover of Time Magazine if it’s so good huh?????”

    Totally illogical.

    “Why didn’t it resonate with more women besides Dane Cook fans?”

    Because it’s a relevant clip from a shitty movie.

    “It’s an example, but it’s a weak example and you need a strong one to sell your point.”

    Sure thing. As soon as Hollywood starts making movies that don’t have shitty writing and fake Disney happy endings I’ll be sure to link them your way.

    “Nice try though. ;)”

    ZING!!!! You sure got me on that one.

    “Okay, the fact that you “joke” about roofying girls is as creepy as creep, seeing as you advocate doing “whatever it takes” for you to get sex.”

    lol yes, it definitely is creepy and scary and horrible. Just like negs, peacocking, teasing, touching girls, speaking loudly, talking about sex, making innuendo, and all those other things THAT CONSISTENTLY WORK would never work. :)

    “Because I would be willing to bet that what you think of as “joking” is actually cringe-inducing and mortifying to normal people who find roofies disgusting.”

    That’s weird, I guess I read the whole “laughing and continuing to hang out with me and dance with me and kiss me and see me again and sleep with me” thing that often happens as some kind of indicator of interest. I am TOTALLY off base, you are correct, nothing that has happened to me and continues to happen to me is actually happening because the completely inaccurate way you visualize it happening in your head offends you.

    “I can’t possibly think of a way for a guy to make jokes about drugging and date-raping girls that is done well. Any examples of how you made this humor work in this area?”

    Sure. The most common way I use it is:

    (I’m at a table with friends near the dance floor, girl asks if she can put her drink there while she dances with her friend beside said table)

    Me: “Sure. But I’m totally going to roofy it and take advantage of you.”
    Her: (look of shock/horror as she stares at me for a second)
    Me: (grin and keep eye contact)
    Her: “omg lol well maybe I’ll roofy YOUR drink.”
    Me: “As long as I wake up in my boxers and fuzzy handcuffs, I’m in.”
    Her: “lol omg”
    (and we flirt from there)
    etc.

    Another way is:

    (she asks if I’ll buy her a drink)

    Me: “You realize if I buy you a drink I’m totally going to roofy it.”
    Her: (look of shock/horror as she stares at me for a second)
    Me: (grin and keep eye contact, see the pattern here?)
    Her: “omg that’s horrible, I can’t believe you said that!”
    Me: “Don’t worry, you won’t even remember this once all the roofies kick in.”
    Her: “omg you’re crazy!”
    Me: “On the plus side, you won’t remember how bad the 30 seconds of sex is.”
    Her: “lol!!”
    (and we flirt from there)

    Another one that happens now and then:

    (I pull out a little Dentyne pack of breathmints and put one in my mouth)

    Her: “What’s that?”
    Me: “My roofies. I took one myself so you can take advantage of me later.”
    Her: “omg lol”
    Me: “Oh no they’re kicking in. I’m sooo sleepy (rest my head on her shoulder)”
    Her: “lololz”
    (and we flirt from there)

    Recently it went:

    (she puts her drink on my table to dance)

    Me: “Careful, I’m just some sketchy random guy in a bar. I’ll totally end up roofying your drink to take advantage of you.”
    Her: “um actually I’ve been roofied twice before.” (DEAD SERIOUS lol)
    Me: “…oh, well that’s an awkward joke then. My bad. Don’t worry, I’ll roofie my buddy over there instead. I’ll be slumming it though, he doesn’t look as good in a dress as you do. …don’t ask how I know that.”
    Her: “omg lol”
    Me: “(change subjects entirely and continue to flirt)”

    It’s really not a big deal. The way you’re picturing it in your head is creepy as fuck because you’re picturing a weird stalker creeper sneaking out of the shadows and going “hehee helllooo ladiessss I’m going to roofie youuuu muwahhahaaa” lol

    “Pua, that’s great about honesty! Most of us have already know this, though, and have discussed it thoroughly.”

    lol this IS the blog that recommended getting a dog not because you want one but so you can meet guys, and to pick its breed not based on the breed you want but based on what a survey said guys want girls to own, right?

    “The only thing I can see is that we can learn is to recognize your techniques so we can avoid people like you for relationship prospects. In that way, it is possible you may be of great service.”

    I’m fine with providing that too lol

    “When the Beast is transfigured into the Prince, he asks if she likes him now that he’s handsome and perfect. Beauty hesitates, looks unsure and says, “I have to think about it.” ;-)”

    ooooo, a perfect neg. But hey, negs are evil right? What a bitch, she should be burned at the stake at the end of the movie for being a creepy manipulative asshole, right? lol

    “Thanks again for responding to my viewpoints, Pua.”

    I’ll be happy to respond till Sue bans me for bringing up uncomfortable subjects for discussion lol

    @J

    “And I wouldn’t obsess on height.”

    Height’s not a big deal at all. I know guys who are 5’2″-5’4″ and regularly date attractive girls who are much taller than them (especially when they wear heels). The problem for short guys is that most of them get a chip on their shoulder about it and it becomes an issue for them. The short guys I know who have no problems dating are guys who don’t care at all about their height and don’t see it as a short-coming (heyoooo) at all.

    Girls want someone who can clearly protect her. Being tall and built is just the fastest external way of demonstrating that ability so those guys get a lot of attention. But if a short guy can demonstrate that he can protect her, he gets the same attraction. That’s why a lot of the short guys who do well with women tend to be very powerful respected men (well-connected socially, solid careers, money, etc.) who aren’t shy and meek (ie – if someone gives them shit they can joke around and out-wit the guy and aren’t phased by taunting about their height etc.).

  • Joel

    Cooper August 8, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    To a certain, extent, yes. Nevertheless there are tons of 7-10 women who’ve gone past the life stage of showing off their boyfriends to their girlfriends.

  • J

    I would also add that Twilight is also a retelling of the legend of Psyche and Eros which is also another version of Beauty and the Beast.

    Huh? I don’t know enought about Twilight to see the parallels, but Beauty and the Beast for sure.

    You should read Spotlight by Professor Granger it not only explains the success of the books but also why is so freaking hated, specially in America.

    I just googled Granger. Sounds interesting.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Huh? I don’t know enought about Twilight to see the parallels,

    Check your email! ;)

  • J

    From Ana’s email:

    The idea of a mortal that becomes immortal through the intervention of his beloved has already been addressed in the Greek legend of Eros and Psyche.

    Of course! It’s obvious now that you mention it, but I wouldn’t have thought of it myself. A vampire can bestow immortality on his beloved. You’re a genius!

  • Ramble

    Carol Alt

    Jackie, it is funny that you mentioned her, because she was just on Fresh Air (on NPR…probably because of that documentary) and she basically said that she loved modeling and that she misses it.

    Again, I am not saying that some models did not do weird things with food. I am positive that the industry has a higher than average ratio of eating disorders. However, the narrative is that models starve themselves for some ridiculous notion of perfection.

    So, that is how these kinds of documentaries are going to go. Let me put it another way, did you ever notice that there were NO documentaries about Priests molesting boys that really focused on how many predatory gay men went into the priesthood?

    There were none. Gays are, right now, untouchable. We won’t be able to say anything negative about them for, I am guessing, another 10 years.

    Let me give you another example. I just happened to notice that there is a documentary on tonight called “Breaking Waves” (or something like that) about rowing/crew. And they focus on how White the sport is and how they need to have more diversity.

    Now, do you really think that Hugh Laurie (Dr. House) was concerned about how un-diverse his rowing team was when he was in college (rowing was, apparently, all he cared about in school)? Of course not.

    But, racist whites, or lack of diversity, is almost always the narrative.

    Now, none of this means that I am right. Again, I really don’t know. But, I would be willing to bet money that most of the top models (again, I am only talking about those girls that are very well known), at least early on in their modeling career, had fairly normal eating habits (again, normal for 14-22 year old girls).