25 Politically Incorrect But Effective Ways to Make Him Your Boyfriend

Young women today are encouraged to explore their sexuality as a form of empowerment. At the same time, we discourage them from seeking a committed relationship too early. This has produced a culture of no-strings sex and failed attempts to secure meaningful relationships, and many women are expressing their dissatisfaction with this script. 

The first step in changing this dynamic is acknowledging sex differences. Embrace your femininity rather than your overt sexuality. Offer genuine emotional companionship. Lose the entitlement and shift your focus to giving. 

Here are 25 things that men seek in a girlfriend. If you can cultivate and internalize these behaviors, you will be way out in front of the pack, because few women understand how important these qualities are to men.

Your results will only be as good as the effort you put into self-development, and will only be effective with a worthy man of good character. Don’t expect to flip a player with these moves.

Nurture: Escalate emotionally to create intimacy and loyalty.

Men are raised to be stoic, and they become adept at compartmentalizing their emotions. If you can bring out a man’s emotions, and create a safe relationship for him to express them, you’ve given him a gift, and he will repay you with loyalty and affection.

1. Actively support him. 

Does he have an interview coming up? A big test? A rough week? Wish him luck, give him encouragement and let him know you are thinking of him. Express interest in hearing how things go, but do not create an obligation for him to report back. 

2. Have his back.

In any kind of crisis, take his side. Always. Do not judge him. Whether he handled everything perfectly or needs to make some changes can be sorted out later if necessary. 

3. Appreciate him.

Express thanks. Communicate the ways in which he makes your life better.  Need him.

4. Physically care for him.

Feed him when he’s hungry. Nurse him when he’s sick. Hug him to show affection. Rub his back.

5. Have eyes for no one but him.

Actively discourage attention from other men. Avoid eye contact with other men. Ignore other men who stare at you or seek to engage you in conversation. Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.

6. Make him look good.

Be proud to be seen in his company, and tell him so. Work hard to engage his coworkers, friends or family in a friendly and generous way. Do not discuss his struggles or weak spots with anyone else. Create opportunities to introduce him to the important people in your life. 

Cultivate: Bring effort and energy to the relationship.

7. Develop your own private language and inside jokes. 

Whether it’s a nickname, a laugh shared, or a funny mishap, you can promote bonding by highlighting experiences unique to the two of  you.

8. Be unconditionally generous. 

Do nice things for him without keeping score. Focus on giving rather than taking. 

9. Pay sometimes.

If he resists, as many men do, find ways to contribute financially other than splitting the check. Order tickets to a show. Cook him a meal at your place. 

10. Remember his favorites.

Pay attention. He loves Maker’s Mark. He hates broccoli. He doesn’t eat pork. The Godfather is his favorite movie. His grandma’s lasagne is his all-time favorite comfort food. Find ways of bringing him pleasure by offering his favorite things. 

11. Investigate his interests.

He’s a football fan and you know nothing about the game. Don’t pretend to be psyched for the Super Bowl, then stand around chatting and snacking with zero interest in the outcome.

He loves jazz, you think it’s for old people. Google the greats and then listen to some Miles Davis. Play it next time he comes over. He’ll be delighted you took the time to learn something for him.

Always respect the things he cares about. Never demean his hobbies.

Maintenance: How low can you go?

12. Be a pressure relief valve.

Be low maintenance. Be a safe haven, a person with whom he can be himself, even on his bad days.

If he has to work late, express understanding and flexibility. Don’t expect him to entertain you; offer to stay in sometimes or do something cheap and low key.

13. Do not compete with family and friends.

Appreciate his loyalty to family and friends, and his need to spend time without you in other relationships. Never compete for his affection with people who are important in his life.

14. Reduce your expectations.

Ditch The Rules. Don’t focus on minutiae like how long it took him to reply to your text. In fact, ditch the texting. It’s a terrible way to communicate anything but plans. Reward him for calling with a spontaneous plan on Friday night – say yes if you are free. 

15. Avoid controlling and possessive behavior.

Never expect him to read your mind. If he asks what’s wrong and you say “Nothing,” it’s on  you. Resolve conflict with a minimum of drama, and once resolved, let it go.

Never ask him to account for his time. Don’t ask him how he knows that girl at the bar. 

16. Maintain privacy as a couple.

Let him know you’re not cackling with your hens about the relationship or his foibles.

17. Respect his privacy.

Never, ever go through his phone, email, facebook, etc. I have seen many women fall into this trap, and I once did the old-fashioned snoop for letters myself back in the day. 

In addition to this being a form of theft, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by it. There is no upside to snooping. You can’t prove a negative, so you can never really be reassured when you don’t find incriminating evidence. You’re also likely to magnify any perceived infractions. 

If you feel the need to stalk his media, it’s a symptom that something is not right in the relationship, and you should address that directly. 

18. Suppress your neuroses.

Women are prone to crazy emotional drama, I admit it. It’s almost always best not to show this side of yourself to a man. Work out your emotional baggage with a therapist or close friend. You’ll be glad in two months that you never shared your paranoia that he had the hots for your sister or that you were sure he was dumping you that time his phone ran out of juice.

19. Stay sober.

Don’t be a sloppy drunk, it signals low value in every conceivable way. He might enjoy getting to see you tipsy now and then, but blackout drunk is never attractive. 

20. Resolve conflict without emotional excess.

Express disappointment judiciously and without drama. Reward the behaviors you like, and withhold approval for behaviors you don’t like. Listen to his point of view. Never allow girlfriends to direct your actions or suggest confrontation.

Be his sex goddess.

21. Delay sex until you have achieved emotional intimacy.

He’s not going to commit to you for the sex, so you want to create a foundation for a relationship before you have sex. He should be thinking, “This girl is awesome, now if only the sex is great…”

22. Perform aural sex.

Tell him you want to be alone with him at a time when you have to wait. Tell him what you find sexy about him. Tell him you are so hot for him and only him. Talk dirty to him. Share a fantasy. A few whispered words can send an electric shock through a man’s body. Too many women neglect this form of seduction.

23. Jump his bones.

Surprise him, initiate physical contact. Men often say they want a girl who is a slut for them only. Let go of inhibitions and modesty. Be his sex goddess.  Give him plenty of reinforcement when he turns you on. 

24. Connect emotionally during and after sex. 

Make eye contact. Be a bit vulnerable. Tell him your favorite physical things about him – his chin, his elegant hands, that small spot on his face where no whiskers grow, the soft area between his shoulder and chest that makes such a perfect pillow for your cheek. 

Accept him “as is.” 

25. Never go into a relationship with an idea of changing a man into what you really want. 

These actions will help seal the deal with an emotionally available and mature man. Before you try for commitment with a man, you should qualify him as relationship material. Even one month of your time and effort spent on a player is a total waste. 

For every bit of effort you make, he should be right there meeting you halfway. He should be:

  • Interested.
  • Reliable.
  • Consistent.
  • Moving the relationship forward.

You will need to be patient. It takes time to develop genuine intimacy and closeness. But you should see these four qualities at all times. If any of these are missing, he’s not a good match for you. Cut your losses and drive on.

3 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • Ramble

    Feed him when he’s hungry.

    Is this your indirect way of telling girls that they should learn how to cook?

    Be his sex goddess.

    21. Delay sex until you have achieved emotional intimacy.

    It is disappointing that “lose the belly” is not only NOT the first thing on the (sub) list, but is not mentioned at all.

    Yes, I understand that you do not like talking about it, and that is very likely stems from you not wanting your female readers to hate you (or inadvertently cause some eating disorder), but still. You can’t be his sex goddess if you are not sexually attractive.

    But, Ramble, if they are together, then that must mean that he is already sexually attracted to her.

    No, it doesn’t.

    ===========================

    BTW, great list.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Is this your indirect way of telling girls that they should learn how to cook?

      I’m happy to say it directly. Every young person should learn to cook. I find cooking with my husband a lot of fun, and we did that a bunch when we were dating. But a woman who cannot cook is missing out on one of the most nurturing things you can do for people you love.

      It is disappointing that “lose the belly” is not only NOT the first thing on the (sub) list, but is not mentioned at all.

      I didn’t address any aspects of personal appearance in this post. This is about behaviors – the way a woman conducts herself in a relationship.

  • Jet Tibet

    Good advice. For wives also.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jet Tibet

      Good advice. For wives also.

      That’s a good point. Most of what I learned on this list, I learned in marriage. Especially the part about having his back no matter what. That deserves a post of its own.

  • Ramble

    Some minor quips:

    11. Investigate his interests.

    He’s a football fan and you know nothing about the game. Don’t pretend to be psyched for the Super Bowl, then stand around chatting and snacking with zero interest in the outcome.

    If he is a football fan, it is OK if you are not. The fact that you respect his interest in the game is more than enough.

    In fact, going tailgating *without* your girlfriend is a really nice experience. And if the boys come over to watch the game, and she keeps herself busy with her own interests, while bringing in food, drinks and snacks for his friends every now and then, well, that is really great.

    And, guys, if your team does lose, that should not sour your attitude for the rest of the day. It is a god damn game*.

    19. Stay sober.

    Don’t be a sloppy drunk, it signals low value in every conceivable way. He might enjoy getting to see you tipsy now and then, but blackout drunk is never attractive.

    One big exception to this, IMO, is if a girl is not much of a drinker. She will have a glass or two, but, basically, almost never gets drunk, or even buzzed. If that girl gets drunk, well, that is adorable.

    ====================================

    * Playoffs excepted. That hurts.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I like your quirky quibble quips.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    It’s a great list but it makes me want to cry given how few women I know who can even score 5/25 in their 40s.

    @Ramble

    If he is a football fan, it is OK if you are not. The fact that you respect his interest in the game is more than enough.

    This…remember the game store story I told a few threads back? That wasn’t about her being into gaming but respecting my interest in it and accepting that I shouldn’t have to wall my own interests 100% away when with her to just focus on her.

  • HanSolo

    Great list.

    Some thoughts in response.

    1 and 2) “Actively support him. Have his back.” Great advice. Many men feel that they have to be these rocks of strength and never be affected by anything and that showing any weakness to a woman will cause her to lose attraction. Yes, men should become as emotionally strong as possible and improve on their abilities to deal with the world but on the other hand few men are really superman and it’s huge to know that you can let down the stoic front just a little and know you won’t get your balls chopped off.

    3) “Appreciate him. Express thanks. Communicate the ways in which he makes your life better. Need him.” This is huge!!!! The opposite of this is the nag, the critic, nothing’s ever good enough. The nagging and the man feeling like he has to walk around on egg shells is a huge attraction killer. I personally respond very well to appreciation, thanks and knowing I’m needed. I think other men do to but would love to hear from the men if they feel the same way. It inspires me to want to do more and use my creativity and intimate knowledge of my woman to do special things for her and to just generally be there for her in ways big and small. I think a lot of women look at the 20% or whatever of men that are players and cads and how their appreciation to them never ends up in a relationship or a good one and then think they need to treat the other 80% or so of men that way. The opposite–and your advice–is the truth.

    8 “Be unconditionally generous” This is great advice in light of many girls being too entitled and thinking they need to be aloof and maintain all the power. Choose wisely whom you act this way with–make sure he’s not an asshole–and this will reap rewards. However, don’t think that this will work with a man that just isn’t into you (95% of the time it won’t) and then conclude that all men are jerks and you shouldn’t be giving to any men.

    11. “Investigate his interests.” I love football so being able to watch a game with a girl is great. She doesn’t have to love it but can enjoy it. Learn the rules. Find an angle about it that interests you. For example, if you like celebrity relationships find out who the football players are married to or dating. It might be an interesting conversation with him too. If she doesn’t know the rules then I’ll explain them and that helps her understand it and find it more interesting. Women should learn the bare basics of whatever he finds really interesting. The man can do so for some of her interests too.

    15 and 18. Avoid controlling behavior and neuroses. Agree!!!!

    “Be his sex goddess.” Totally agree. Most men come from the frame of mind of sex scarcity and having to be the one to pursue and sometimes get it grudgingly from the woman. Of course there are exceptions, like the woman is really into him in the limerance phase of the relationship. Overall, by instigating at times and always making it good and sincerely letting him know how much he turns you one he will really feel like he is sexy, something that many men are starved to feel. This is a simple market principle. Not much supply of making men feel sexy so he will really value it from you.

  • HanSolo

    I would echo Ramble’s sentiment and suggest that these things are very important to most men once the woman has passed the hurdle of being physically attractive enough.

    To be somewhat simplistic the first hurdle is looks (and each man will differ a bit) so do what you can to improve there. But, the meme that men ONLY care about looks for a relationship is definitely false. I can understand that you might be assuming in this post that the couple in question have been out a couple of times and that the man finds her physically attractive enough. If he does find her physically attractive enough then this list is where his focus will now be (and I’m not saying what that ‘enough’ is for each men and some men do need to be realistic too about how cute a woman they can get). The other caveat is that if the woman is on the borderline of cute enough then upping her cuteness will definitely help, some examples could be losing a few pounds, getting the right haircut, clothes, makeup, smiling more, etc.

    Once the sufficiently attractive hurdle is passed then the man will start to care about the woman’s personality. However, since men know almost instantaneously if they find the woman to be attractive or not her personality and this list will come into play very quickly. If she seems too cold or bitchy, a qualified-in-her-eyes man may just not approach, especially somewhat shyer types, but the players will.

    Once the looks and personality hurdles are crossed then I would say her achievements are the last thing. Women hate that this is true but it is. They’ve applied the logic that since they find a man who can achieve is attractive to them that it should be to men. Of course, most men don’t want an idiot, a total slacker or a bum but neither do most men need the woman to be so high achieving either. As long as she has a decent career and is doing something positive with her life that is enough. An exception might be to some extent with UMC professionals who want 2 high incomes but even there looks and a great personality and an average job like being a school teacher will trump average looks, average personality and great job 99.9% of the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Han Solo

      Thanks for all that great input!

      I can understand that you might be assuming in this post that the couple in question have been out a couple of times and that the man finds her physically attractive enough. If he does find her physically attractive enough then this list is where his focus will now be

      Yes, that was my assumption, but you guys should feel free to ask for the world! :)

  • Adam

    “will only be effective with a worthy man of good character. Don’t expect to flip a player with these moves.”

    But what’s wrong with seduction, a la Casanova? The way I view it is positive, as creating excitement and pleasure. And shouldn’t you, too, if you’re sex-positive and love-positive? Oh, that’s right…. it needs to occur in the context of something called a “relationship”, without a question. God forbid we actually think outside the politically correct box here :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Adam

      But what’s wrong with seduction, a la Casanova? The way I view it is positive, as creating excitement and pleasure. And shouldn’t you, too, if you’re sex-positive and love-positive?

      If I had married a woman intelligent enough to guide me, to rule me without my feeling that I was ruled, I should have taken good care of my money, I should have had children, and I should not be, as now I am, alone in the world and possessing nothing.

      Giacomo Casanova

      You got me thinking about Casanova, and I was surprised by some facts about him. From Wikipedia:

      “He mentions over 120 adventures with women and girls, with several veiled references to male lovers as well.”

      Only 120? I would have guessed a much higher number.

      “Alcohol and violence, for him, were not proper tools of seduction.”

      “Casanova claims not to be predatory; however, his conquests did tend to be insecure or emotionally exposed women.”

      “Casanova valued intelligence in a woman: “After all, a beautiful woman without a mind of her own leaves her lover with no resource after he had physically enjoyed her charms.”

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Great list, Susan.

    I’ll add a few random thoughts…

    1. Pre-season preparation is key. Before trying to get into an LTR, the woman should be:

    A) Raising SMV as high as possible. Look at what men really like when it comes to spending $ on sexual entertainment, not necessary what they claim that they like when women ask them. It will have some provocative elements and other women may actually attempt to sabotage some of these things and tell you why you don’t need them.

    B) Finding an outside emotional outlet/punching bag that she can regularly dump the emotionally toxic “bad stuff” on, thus freeing her to consistently bring her A-game to her LTR partner. It’s a bit like playing a team sport—your teammate deserves your best performance, other people just don’t. *

    *this one may be very hard for chronically negative affect/neurotics, because they may seek vampire-type arrangements with more stable personalities and then really unload on them.

    C) Finding some common guy interest/hobby areas that you actually do enjoy doing, that won’t require a sacrifice. Obviously the more of these you naturally have the easier it will be to find points of commonality, but the pre-season can be the time to experiment with different things and find the ones that you genuinely like.

    You are creating the largest mutually beneficial,”win-win” negotiation zone possible for LTR activities, and most women just don’t do this for whatever reason. It’s a big potential advantage—IME, men will refer to a woman like this as a “cool chick”, which is actually a mark of considerable respect.

    Example: “We went skeet-shooting the other day—it was Susan’s idea, she’s really into it. Afterward she wanted to go watch the UFC at a sports bar.”

    Response from male chorus: “Wow, that’s a cool chick.”

    This doesn’t work if it is just an unsustainable act designed to lure the guy in. It has to be genuine.

    D) Finding a way to credibly signal that you are a very, very low divorce risk.

    E) Finding a way to credibly signal that you will not allow an LTR to suffer deterioration in sexual frequency or quality. If the potential male really is a high-SMV alpha, then for God’s sake keep his penis unloaded by any means necessary. Don’t even think of hunting for dangerous big game animals unless you have the sex drive to match such wild appetites.

    F) Accepting that men are eternal children and finding a way to credibly signal that the man you are with is the hottest, most asskicking alpha in the world as far as you are concerned, and praising these traits frequently. Even if he is a classic low-N, harmless beta provider, tell him that he’s a badass and make him feel dangerous. Routinely compare him favorably to predatory animals, superheroes, or even action toys like Optimus Prime.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Great advice there about pre-season training! I agree that a woman should bring her A game in the first place – look her best, have interests of her own, etc. For example, it’s much easier to give a bf considerable freedom to hang with his friends if she has friends of her own she wants to see. If she has her own interests, time apart can be productive and enjoyable for both parties. And it gives him a chance to crave her company again.

      This doesn’t work if it is just an unsustainable act designed to lure the guy in. It has to be genuine.

      Agreed. When I say “investigate his interests” I mean do the work necessary that you can share in it. You don’t have to love it, but the idea is to respect his interests and meet him halfway. If you don’t, you’re either going to attempt to hold him back from doing what he enjoys, or you’re going to be going along for the ride without any real interest. That may work in the early days, but the novelty wears off quickly.

      D) Finding a way to credibly signal that you are a very, very low divorce risk.

      I hadn’t been thinking in precisely those terms, but I do think these 25 items should go a long way toward accomplishing that.

      Finding a way to credibly signal that you will not allow an LTR to suffer deterioration in sexual frequency or quality.

      This is where “I can’t get enough of you” comes in. Assuming it is genuine, a woman helps herself a lot by letting him know this as much as possible.

      Even if he is a classic low-N, harmless beta provider, tell him that he’s a badass and make him feel dangerous.

      Interesting – how does one do this with a guy who is in fact not badass? Do all men really want to feel this way?

  • Jon

    Haha. Amusing framing! In other words be the opposite of typical Western fembots. Good luck with this Susan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In other words be the opposite of typical Western fembots.

      Exactly.

  • Ramble

    Every young person should learn to cook.

    I understand why you are saying this, but, I don’t agree. There is a reason that, in almost every culture, young men (and I am specifically talking about young men) did not focus on that task.

    There is actually a fair amount of effort and knowledge needed to be a competent cook. Things like, understand how certain things keep, and what does not. What is spoiling and what is, simply, delicious funky cheese. Understanding what cuts (of meat, poultry, fish) can be “stretched” and what can not. What foods are are more economical and which are not. How to diversify your families diet. How to plan meals for the week. How to “put up” fruit and veg. etc. etc.

    I didn’t even mention any cooking techniques.

    Now, assuming that you want to live in a society with lots of good engineers, doctors, scientists, surgeons, researchers, lab techs and fairly advanced technology, plumbers, carpenters, electricians and, in general, lots of good technology (and, understanding that most of thee jobs will be filled by men…men who needed to dedicate a fair amount of time learning these skills to begin with) then it is shortsighted to say, “Well, young men, you should be learning how to cook TOO”.

    If they do, great. But, if the ignore that particular task to become an accomplished General Contractor, well, that is more than OK, in my book.

    Now, if some girl does not know how to cook by the time she is pregnant, well, that is a little different.

    Again, there is a reason why every successful culture in the history of the world organized itself this way.

    (BTW, I love to cook…sshhh, don’t tell no one.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      The reason I said that everyone should learn to cook is because of the average age at marriage. A guy who goes to college is not likely to marry before 30. That’s nine years after leaving school, and if he doesn’t live with his parents, he needs to prepare meals to eat healthily and economically.

      I have enjoyed watching my son learn to cook – he and his gf often help me at the holidays now. It’s just a good life skill.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Yes, that was my assumption, but you guys should feel free to ask for the world!

    We ask but “gravity” soon brings us back to earth! ;)

  • Ramble

    Routinely compare him favorably to predatory animals

    I actually disagreed with your “C” entry, but, this was awesome.

  • Ramble

    @Ramble

    I like your quirky quibble quips.

    quite.

  • HanSolo

    @Bastiat Blogger

    If the potential male really is a high-SMV alpha, then for God’s sake keep his penis unloaded by any means necessary. Don’t even think of hunting for dangerous big game animals unless you have the sex drive to match such wild appetites.

    LMAO. :D

  • Cooper

    Why exactly are these things considered politically incorrect?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Why exactly are these things considered politically incorrect?

      Because women are taught not to go looking for a man, trying to get an MRS degree, and not to serve a man’s needs. Almost everything on this list was either omitted or discouraged when I learned about relationships growing up.

      Female narcissism has increased rapidly under feminism – there’s a prevalent attitude of “What’s in it for me? I want to be treated like a princess,” etc.

      The irony is that a woman gets her own emotional needs met when she fulfills another person’s needs. That’s also true in friendship and parenting. We need to make it OK for women to dedicate themselves to pleasing their mates as a way of ultimately pleasing themselves. More giving, and less taking. And more assumption of personal risk – back to the idea that it’s the woman’s job to escalate emotionally.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    We ask but “gravity” soon brings us back to earth! ;)

    It isn’t us that “gravity” affects the most.

  • J

    @SW

    Great post, Susan. Actually the last one was quite impressive as well, though I don’t njoy reading stats. You certainly did prove your points about who is having sex with whom though. I’m glad to see some common misconceptions laid to rest, though I doubt they’ll stay there.

    I’m happy to say it directly. Every young person should learn to cook. I find cooking with my husband a lot of fun, and we did that a bunch when we were dating. But a woman who cannot cook is missing out on one of the most nurturing things you can do for people you love.

    Completely cosigned.

    I would add to your list, “Don’t obsess on past relationships.” If you are satisfied with your partner’s character, don’t worry about/be jealous over past partners.

    I would also agree with Ramble that it’s not necessary to embrace all of each other’s interests, though I have no objection to people doing so. But it is important to maintain some separate space and interests, I think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I would add to your list, “Don’t obsess on past relationships.” If you are satisfied with your partner’s character, don’t worry about/be jealous over past partners.

      That’s a great one! I can recall having difficulty with this hurdle myself. And it didn’t help when I met my husband’s ex while exiting the hardware store, no makeup, carrying a mop and bucket. Meanwhile, she of the “confused sexuality” was in tight jeans and a leather bomber jacket looking sleek.

  • Bobley

    That’s an insane amount of wisdom in one post, Susan. All are excellent, #s 18 and 20 especially. If a woman follows those rules and also has the good fortune of being pretty, she might start a war a la Helen of Troy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bobley

      Thanks! I believe you are new? If so, welcome!

  • J

    Ramble, I’m going to respectfully disagree about the cooking. Not everyone has to be a cordon bleu chef or even manage a family kitchen, but life is so much better if you have some basic cooking skills. And not knowing how to determine if food is spoiled is dangerous in my book.

  • http://adamtpack.wordpress.com Adam

    Wow, Ms Walsh, that is an interesting quote by Casanova. Thanks for sharing.

    Like Casanova, my ideal in seduction would be seduction of worthy (not stupid, for one thing) women and without the use of violence (obviously) or alcohol (well… socially, but not to coerce into having sex; that is so anti-seductive). As of right now, I cannot see seduction as necessarily predative, but perhaps my views will evolve :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Adam

      There is nothing wrong with your desire to rack up some STRs if that’s what you want. But I’m sure you’d agree that a woman seeking an LTR should not waste her considerable time, energy, and emotion deploying this plan with you.

  • Just a thought

    Susan, thank you, this is information that a lot of girls don’t really get. I’m especially curious about the part where you bring your “A game” to your partner. At the risk of sounding stupid, are you supposed to not bitch to your partner about your problems? Are you supposed to try and seem happy always? Are you saying that there is a middle line between always being happy and being a terrible bitch? If so, how would this look like? What’s the correct amount of bitching?

    Ramble, um, nowadays women want to become doctors/engineers and so on. If women can find time to have high powered jobs and raise children or carry pregnancies, then I think men should also learn how to cook. I think both sexes ought to be able to cook.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just a thought

      At the risk of sounding stupid, are you supposed to not bitch to your partner about your problems? Are you supposed to try and seem happy always? Are you saying that there is a middle line between always being happy and being a terrible bitch?

      I have learned through trial and error that works best is to let my husband vent whenever he needs to vent. When I do that and support him – it is always the other person’s fault – he feels the need to bitch less. I just listen and sympathize. Since I got good at this I find that he is equally generous with me. It’s really just as corny as the golden rule in action.

      I would not pretend to be happy when you are not. I tend to be a cheerful, perky type and when I’m feeling blue my family finds it disconcerting. Too bad. I don’t inflict my mood on anyone – I may want some time alone, or just to listen rather than be a good conversationalist. I think it’s important to be genuine in a relationship, though cultivating a positive attitude is going to make you more attractive.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, I love this list! It’s a great follow-up to the emotional escalation post.

    I try to meet all of these points with my husband, which has helped make our marriage harmonious.

    About the shared interests: so many young guys play video games nowadays that I think it’s worthwhile for girls to look into it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      t’s a great follow-up to the emotional escalation post.

      I should have dedicated this post to Mike C. He felt the loss of the post with real examples of emo escalation, and said that he likes posts giving women advice on how to be more relationship worthy. I had him in mind when I wrote it.

      About the shared interests: so many young guys play video games nowadays that I think it’s worthwhile for girls to look into it.

      I agree!

      “John Seely Brown: I would rather hire a high-level World of Warcraft player than an MBA from Harvard.”

      http://bigthink.com/ideas/45592

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Just a thought, that’s a funny way to put it — “correct amount of bitching.” I would say, go on the side of least possible amount of bitching.

    Being 8 months pregnant comes with hormone-induced emotions and physical ailments. So I’ve been struggling with this a little. I find that it’s fine to complain every now and then, but don’t expect to be treated like a princess for any reason. It’s okay to reveal your unhappiness and vulnerabilities, but do try to get ahold of yourself and your emotions, discuss issues calmly, and not make it a drama fest.

    Nobody likes a perpetual whiner/complainer, even if it is a friend, family member or significant other. Try to strive for happiness in whatever way you can, and don’t expect other people to solve your problems for you. This can be very difficult when you’re in physical or mental pain, but it’s where personal discipline comes in. You can’t be happy all the time, but you can try to meditate, take a walk, exercise, or do other things to get yourself back up to a balanced state.

    Plus, if you only complain when something is really bothering you, and do it very rarely, you’re more likely to be taken seriously than if you “cry wolf” all the time. :P

  • Ramble

    Not everyone has to be a cordon bleu chef or even manage a family kitchen, but life is so much better if you have some basic cooking skills. And not knowing how to determine if food is spoiled is dangerous in my book.

    J, I hope that you noticed that I did not mention one cooking technique. I am not talking about being able to make a great Swiss Meringue Buttercream.

    The ability and skill to manage a household and nourish your family is extremely important. Hopefully, in the wake of financial crisis and our record setting fat asses, this is really evident.

    re: some basic cooking skills – no argument. But that is not, IMO, what we are addressing.

    And not knowing how to determine if food is spoiled is dangerous in my book. That’s right. And knowing that some fermented foods are OK to eat, like some cheeses, and others are not, like rancid meat, is important. And, assuming that we will continue to default to women as the source of nourishment in most families (and, we should), then it is important that they learn these skills.

  • Ramble

    The reason I said that everyone should learn to cook is because of the average age at marriage. A guy who goes to college is not likely to marry before 30. That’s nine years after leaving school, and if he doesn’t live with his parents, he needs to prepare meals to eat healthily and economically.

    I don’t disagree with this basic idea, but, I think things are much bigger than that. But, to make a long story short, think of it this way:

    One of the ways that girl, back in the bad old days, could emotionally escalate was by preparing a nutritious and satisfying meal for a man that might be living in squalor (he is not poor, just a man with other priorities than keeping his place clean and peeling potatoes).

    And, this was a very socially acceptable way for a girl to satisfy a man’s basic and primal needs and no one would call her a whore for doing so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And, this was a very socially acceptable way for a girl to satisfy a man’s basic and primal needs and no one would call her a whore for doing so.

      I totally agree, and I had great success cooking for men when I was single. I truly believe it put me in the “can’t live without you (for right now)” box with several guys.

  • J

    I can recall having difficulty with this hurdle myself. And it didn’t help when I met my husband’s ex while exiting the hardware store, no makeup, carrying a mop and bucket. Meanwhile, she of the “confused sexuality” was in tight jeans and a leather bomber jacket looking sleek.

    Meh. It happens to the best of us. We have our good days and our bad. Besides, at this point in her life, she may be sporting a buzzcut and a football jersey. And, if not, you’re still the woman he chose.

    OTOH, DH’s favorite joke is that he’s going to buy a boat one day and call it the Lori C. after an ex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Besides, at this point in her life, she may be sporting a buzzcut and a football jersey.

      Thank you, that really puts a spring in my step.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    The first item on the list should be “Know that he is the gatekeeper to commitment and that he can rescind that commitment at any time and for any reason. It is your supremely rewarding pleasure to maintain his desire and motivation to keep that commitment.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Private Man

      The first item on the list should be “Know that he is the gatekeeper to commitment and that he can rescind that commitment at any time and for any reason. It is your supremely rewarding pleasure to maintain his desire and motivation to keep that commitment.”

      That is an excellent preface to the whole post, thank you.

  • J

    I am not talking about being able to make a great Swiss Meringue Buttercream.

    Can you do that? Can you add chocolate? If so, I love you.

  • Rich

    Good advice.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan and Private Man

    How true is it that men really are the gatekeepers to commitment?

    The general principle to be a gatekeeper seems to be that he or she who decides last (or less often or less readily) is the gatekeeper since the other has already decided she or he wants it.

    With sex, especially casual sex, women are seen as the gatekeepers since on average men want it significantly more and with less discrimination regarding whom.

    In light of this post (aka, that many young women need this advice) and that many women in there 20′s don’t want a relationship but would rather study, work or party. Plus with the many young women who will excessively blow out a guy for seeming too needy and clingy if he expresses that he’s looking for a relationship and not just casual (I’m not talking about the legitimacy of a guy waiting long enough to know her to like her beyond her looks). I would say these types are a minority but still a significant percentage that definitely affects the market. The other factor is hypergamy. If the 6 girl won’t even go out or hang out or whatever with the 6 guy who wants a relationship then effectively she is the gatekeeper and is preemptively keeping her relationship gate shut to him.

    Now with the players and cads who are getting lots of attention then they are certainly gatekeepers for commitment because they either don’t want it at all or can be very selective in whom they commit to. In generically assigning men as the gatekeepers of commitment I wonder if there is not a bit of the apex-player-cad fallacy going on to some extent because we do hear about a lot of guys who do want a gf of their own MMV (especially the 6′s, maybe even 7′s, and below) but are having some difficulty in finding one. I won’t opine on how many such guys there are except that they probably are not a majority but are also not insignificant.

    Even from evo-psych women are going to be careful and hence gatekeepers about whom the commit to.

    So, what is meant by saying that men are the gatekeepers to commitment? Is it really the men that women want to commit to them and are thus of equal or higher MMV than her and would thus have other equal or better options than her? I can believe this but then really it is women who are the initial gatekeepers by filtering out most men and then it could be the remaining men that she is interested in are the later-stage gatekeepers.

    Any thoughts on this to clarify it would be appreciated.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      You raise a good question about who holds the cards re commitment. Essentially, men are the gatekeepers, but they may be offering a product with declining demand. While I don’t believe that is the case, it is clear that the timeline has shifted, and women are entering the commitment market later. It also depends a great deal on whom men are offering commitment to. The market breaks down into two niches:

      1. Women who party. They are not interested in commitment from men who study or work hard, they’re interested in commitment from men who party. This is where much of the hooking up occurs.

      2. Men who party. They don’t offer commitment other than in a “fake boyfriend” sort of way.

      3. Women who study and work hard. They are less interested in socializing during college overall, as they tend to be very achievement-oriented. Many of these women do not pursue men in college, either casually or for relationships. Others would love a relationship, but get little attention from guys.

      4. Men who study and word hard. May be willing to offer commitment, but find few takers. When they look around campus, they are more likely to “see” the party girls, who they accurately perceive are giving it up for asshats. They generally don’t connect with more studious girls.

      The opportunity for more relationships lies with groups 3 and 4.

  • HanSolo

    @47 My bad on the poor spelling and grammar. I will improve! :)

  • Cooper

    “then really it is women who are the initial gatekeepers by filtering out most men and then it could be the remaining men that she is interested in are the later-stage gatekeepers.”

    This I do not understand either.

  • HanSolo

    @47

    I’ll amend my statement to also include alphas and highly-desirable alpha-betas and greater betas.

    Now with the players, cads, alphas and greater betas who are getting lots of attention then they are certainly gatekeepers for commitment because they either don’t want it at all or can be very selective in whom they commit to. In generically assigning men as the gatekeepers of commitment I wonder if there is not a bit of the apex-player-cad-alpha-greater-beta fallacy going on to some extent because we do hear about a lot of guys who do want a gf of their own MMV

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    I would suggest that women might be the bigger commitment gatekeepers overall because they screen out such a high % of men as not worthy of her, what I called the initial gatekeeping phase.

  • HanSolo

    My opinion, and curious about other’s, is that men who are 9-10 are cleaning up, either getting casual or having a good selection for LTR’s. (But you still have to choose wisely, Robert Pattinson!)

    When a man’s an 8 he does pretty well in today’s market. It’s below that level where things increasingly fall off for men, especially as you get down to 5-

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When a man’s an 8 he does pretty well in today’s market. It’s below that level where things increasingly fall off for men, especially as you get down to 5-

      I believe that female hypergamy plays a role in hooking up – we know that men in college view beauty as being only a lightswitch away. Still, given the stats it’s obvious that there are lots of virgins, and lots of students who have an occasional hookup. If the Greeks, athletes and partiers are the ones having the bulk of the sex, then the question is “Are they disproportionately filling the ranks of the 8-10s?” If they are, then a 5 of either sex is unlikely to succeed unless they target a 5 of the opposite sex. On the other hand, if women in the 5-7 range are aggressively pursuing casual sex, then both male 5-7s and female 8-10s are displaced, which is what I have previously argued.

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Can you please help me understand the two immutable biological imperatives, that we’d talk about earlier. I still really do not understand.

    Is our biology supposed to never be excused? Or are we supposed to avoid it?

    Do women embrace hypergamy, or do they avoid it?

    According to these biological imperatives, is a man right in seeking “access to sex with as few complications or commitments as possble?”

    Does being a man mean I’m supposed to escalate with women I have no intensions, or foresight, of giving commitment to?

    I made a massive forum post, but I believe it is too long and cluttered.

    It seems like both biological imperative exist to serve each individual sex, while signaling long-term commitment risks towards the opposite.

    How are we supposed to deal with these two? (ie are men right in avoiding a hypergamous women, and how should women feel about a ‘variety-seeking’ man?)

    Is a monogamous relationship always suppose to be built on both sexes renouncing their imperatives?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Is our biology supposed to never be excused? Or are we supposed to avoid it?

      Do women embrace hypergamy, or do they avoid it?

      In my view, biology explains our drives, our impulses, and our base desires. Those of us who are ruled by biology alone are really no more evolved than our paleo ancestors. Civilization depends on human beings having the capacity to rise above their biology. We shouldn’t avoid it or use it as an excuse, but we should conquer it.

      Some people, both women and men, lack either the wish or the capacity to suppress base impulses in service of some greater goal or purpose. Others are better able to delay gratification, weigh costs and benefits, avoid unnecessary risk and maintain a future time orientation. I think around half of this is genetic, and the other half is environmental or cultural.

      How are we supposed to deal with these two? (ie are men right in avoiding a hypergamous women, and how should women feel about a ‘variety-seeking’ man?)

      Research clearly shows that some people are wired for short-term mating. They generally mate with one another and fail at attempted relationships. Clearly, a man or woman who is LTR oriented and chooses someone like this is in for a pile of heartache. I’d say women do this more than men do, hoping to change the guy, e.g. Christian Grey, but men do it too, or at least they are attracted to women in this group.

      Is a monogamous relationship always suppose to be built on both sexes renouncing their imperatives?

      Yes. Both sexes compromise to arrive at the best possible outcome. Evolution has taken care of part of this – women have in fact evolved to prefer less variety-seeking men for long-term mating. Those guys may want their shot at short-term mating and be disappointed, or they may be frustrated that women are delaying long-term mating in general. The SMP is definitely wacked. But virtually all happily married people have found that compromise rewarding, and do not feel they have “settled.”

  • Cooper

    @HanSolo
    The answers all lie in the 80/20 rule. (I’ve been think about this myself)

    If one is to assume that the distribution of men/women along the 1-10 attractive scale is proportionate to each other, (with slight exceptions to how women can dress up a few point, and guys can use game) then there obviously must be a disproportion to who’s sleeping with who.

    This is perpetuated by both sexes. Women are want to sleep with high status men, and are potentially willing to risk participating in a harem to do so. While at the same time, guys are happily sleeping with multiple women, some of which below their SMP, whom they have no plans of ever giving commitment to.

  • Blue Velvet

    I have absolutely no problem doing all these things for a man, provided he does the same for me. Reciprocity is key.

  • ExNewYorker

    Wow, great list. Amazing how such a list would be “politically incorrect”.

    While I might have minor quibbles here and there, this is pretty damn good list.

    I would note that #25 is extremely important. The fact that it’s at the end should not be an indication of precedence. In fact, it’s the prerequisite.

    What this list boils down to is being a woman of worth such that a man would be happy to commit to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @ENY

      The fact that it’s at the end should not be an indication of precedence. In fact, it’s the prerequisite.

      Yes, it is very important. I put it there to drive home the point that you can only succeed if you’re working with the right raw material. I caution that up front, and I want to emphasize that again at the end.

      In addition to the female “preseason training” there must also be aggressive filtering up front. Women have no business taking on “projects” for rehabilitation – I think the failure rate is about 100%.

  • Ramble

    Can you do that?

    Actually, Italian and Swiss Buttercreams are much easier than most realize.

  • HanSolo

    @Cooper

    I read your forum post and would say that many hypergamous women reward men who are following their male imperative (aka, players, but not dumpster diving) because it signals high value and capability. A hyp. woman needs to have her hypergamy reined in (via culture as it was in the past with assortive mating and strict norms, or enough heartbreaks or p&d’s to clue in, or her own common sense) in order to find a man that will find her attractive enough to commit. So, yes, she does have to rein in her natural imperative for getting the top genes and balance it out with her other natural imperative of having a protector against the wolves and a provider against hunger. However, today, in rich and safe societies there are few wolves and little hunger so that 2nd natural imperative isn’t signalling as strongly as it would have 500 years ago and so the hypergamous desires are the more dominant signal and have gradually expanded their hold on the female psyche (especially in the teens and 20′s).

    For men, they have 2 imperatives too, the primary one is to spread seed but in the many-wolf, little-food world this is actually an utter failure because the woman and baby will be much more likely to die. I think this is why many men innately respond to being needed. It pushes those buttons that says he’s in a provider/protector-is-needed environment and he responds. Not saying this is the only factor but I believe men have somewhat of a range that their genes make them capable of and they will respond to the environment. Of course the genes themselves are spread across the spectrum of commitment-vs-spread-seed.

    As to your point that men don’t want overly-hypergamous women I would see this as being more that the woman doesn’t want the man as opposed to the man not wanting her. The 8 man would like the 8 woman but if she’s hyp. then she won’t want him. Now, if she’s a slut or hyp. then that will be likely to make him less desirous to commit to her but the bigger factor is that she won’t want him.

    Overall, I would say that for stable monogamous relationships that both sexes do need to rein in their imperatives you mentioned. There is an assymetry in that woman find men more attractive who are able to get other women while men are more objective because they base more of their attraction on easy-to-observe things like looks and even pleasant personality whereas women are attracted in part to more nebulous concepts in men like status relative to other men and relative to her.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, that was an interesting article.

    HanSolo and Cooper, good point about the initial gatekeeping/filtering.

    Here’s what I think happens. Basically, men and women do initial filtering, then from those who make it through the filter, audition to see if there is a mutual match.

    Men’s filters are mostly physical and so don’t take much time. Women’s filters are less physical and so they tend to take more time to get to the auditioning phase.

    I believe Susan’s advice is geared toward this auditioning phase for the woman who has filtered in a man.

  • Blue Velvet

    “I believe Susan’s advice is geared toward this auditioning phase for the woman who has filtered in a man.”

    No, its for the exclusively committed relationship phase.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “I believe Susan’s advice is geared toward this auditioning phase for the woman who has filtered in a man.”

      No, its for the exclusively committed relationship phase.

      The advice is definitely for the auditioning phase, but it assumes a high level of interest on the woman’s part based on what she’s seen so far. She has qualified the guy as LTR material, and she wants to behave in such a way while dating that he is more likely to commit. IOW, the focus is on her auditioning for a relationship.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Blue Velvet, well, maybe both. For example 9, 19 and 21 are about the beginning stages.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    “We ask but “gravity” soon brings us back to earth! ”

    It isn’t us that “gravity” affects the most.

    Hi INTJ. Can you explain what you mean? I don’t remember if you’re a man or a woman so wasn’t sure if ‘us’ is referring to men or women. Thanks.

    I was referring to the idea that although we–men–might like to be with a 10 woman that since we have to pursue and get shot down by the 10 that we soon come to find the range of women that like us and most men will accept this sooner or later and by reasonably happy with it. OTOH, those women who are hypergamous can get STR attention from higher SMV men and maintain loftier expectations for longer. Although in the end, reality eventually dawns on most women too.

  • Blue Velvet

    Hope, Susan wrote, “This is about behaviors – the way a woman conducts herself in a relationship” and 21 specifies that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hope, Susan wrote, “This is about behaviors – the way a woman conducts herself in a relationship” and 21 specifies that.

      Yes, it’s the same principle as telling someone to always dress for work as well as their boss does. You always try out for the job by demonstrating that you can do it.

  • Anacaona

    If that girl gets drunk, well, that is adorable.

    That explains my hubby reaction to me getting drunk with 3 ounces of wine. I was embarrased and he was gigling and hubby never giggles.

    I wanted to mention that I think you and Susan are both right in different ways both genders should be able to do at least three meals (3 types of breakfasts, lunch and dinners) in order to be ready to save money and still eat healthy on any situation there is nothing worst than depending on restaurants or fast food 24/7. But I do agree that a woman should be able to impress with her cooking skills. Women might like it when a man cooks for her, but after a while it loses the impact while men always get impressed when they can have a meal as good as in the restaurant at home once in a while or be able to read about a recipe and ask his wife/girlfriend to do it for him. That surely gets you a lot of points, IMO.

  • Abbot

    “women today are encouraged to explore their sexuality”

    By whom? Parents? Do men ever explore their sexuality or is their activity restricted to just plain old fashioned pre say 1999 fucking or whenever it was before all these cutesy euphemistic fumigators were invented for women ?

    “as a form of empowerment”

    Is there a twisted irony built into a system where women claim empowerment via mutual genital rubbing with men? Do men seek out empowerment via other peoples genitals or are they, ya know, just plain old fucking? Imagine foreigners who read about American women in this regard just shake their heads in dumbfounded amazement.

    “Embrace your femininity rather than your overt sexuality.”

    That seems like a step in the right direction but really, what the heck is this “embrace” thing? Is it a women wrapping her arms around herself while kissing a mirror? Is her sexuality defined solely by the willingness of men, who are no-challenge to acquire low hanging fruit, to always penetrate whenever she says “go?” Well then, she would be very wise indeed to exercise restraint for her own personal well being and self respect today and for her choice of good men willing to commit to her in the future.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That seems like a step in the right direction but really, what the heck is this “embrace” thing? Is it a women wrapping her arms around herself while kissing a mirror? Is her sexuality defined solely by the willingness of men

      What I meant by embrace was to accept your natural feminine traits, and your desire to please a man and even be dominated by him, rather than feel ashamed of your female nature and compensate by acting more male.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Crabb, in “Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference” makes a number of points which would cause HUSers’ teeth to hurt.
    One which he emphasizes, and which is addressed glancingly by other practitioners, is that a woman’s trust and appreciation actually builds a man. Makes him bolder, more assertive, more proactive, a better provider, citizen, better in bed.
    Tearing him down, on the other hand, has the effects you’d imagine.
    IOW, it’s largely up to the woman how the man is.
    I don’t recall if Crabb explains the mechanism. Possibly just being aware on a subconscious level of trust and appreciation, or its opposite, provides the energy.
    Dr. Laura says the same in a different way.
    I don’t know much about the response to Crabb’s book, but some of the reax to Dr. Laura’s view amount to, “Nobody can tell me not to nag my husband and tear him down! How dare you!”

  • Blue Velvet

    Ramble, keeping and preparing food is nowhere near as difficult as it used to be or still is in some underdeveloped areas of the world. You don’t need that amount of detailed knowledge you write about in our freezer and refrigerator society. Boiling rice and steaming vegetables is easy and not time consuming. Toss up a salad and you have complete meal that even a 9 year old can make, what to speak of a med student or engineer.

  • Ramble

    But I do agree that a woman should be able to impress with her cooking skills. Women might like it when a man cooks for her, but after a while it loses the impact while men always get impressed when they can have a meal as good as in the restaurant at home once in a while or be able to read about a recipe and ask his wife/girlfriend to do it for him. That surely gets you a lot of points, IMO.

    Ana, that is all fine and good. But, I am talking about much more than that. Basically, traditional home economics, nutrition (soak your grains, soak your oats, acidic things like pickles and relishes help digest foods, etc.), nourishment, etc.

    But, yeah, when a girl cooks something special for you, it can be great.

  • Jonathan

    Great post, perhaps the equal of all of your other posts combined. If women followed this simple advice it would solve most problems between the sexes.

    Now how to get women to follow the advice?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonathan

      Now how to get women to follow the advice?

      I’m trying….

      I do have one case study, a young woman who I have told all of this to over the years. She is succeeding because she has truly internalized a new attitude and approach to relationships. Also, the guy is a really, really good guy. He’s not perfect, but he’s an attractive man of good character.
      She is really into him, and she wants to win his heart.

      This is an example of the 80% getting together, btw.

  • Ramble

    Boiling rice and steaming vegetables is easy and not time consuming.

    Blue Velvet, are you feeding your children (or would be children) excess starch by NOT rinsing the rice before hand?

    What about grains like wheat? How much of the wheat you are serving them is sprouted and then prepared with a wild yeast?

    The list goes on and on.

    But that is not necessary nowadays

    That must be why we have a record number of people with serious allergies, inabilities to tolerate gluten, thyroid problems, Vitamin D deficiencies, etc.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Blue Velvet, all of the points do indeed apply to a woman in a relationship, which I strive for as well. But to get the relationship in the first place, I had to demonstrate to the man I love that I would be capable of all of these points, and more importantly, willing! He didn’t know 100% that I would rub his back and neck frequently, but I did drop early hints, and he saw that I had “potential” to be a good girlfriend.

    It goes back to the title of this post, “effective ways to make him your boyfriend.”

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan:

    “11. Investigate his interests”

    —But don’t ever be better or more knowledgable in his interest than he is. If you naturally are, pretend you’re not, if that helps. In high school I dated a guy who loved to draw. When people praised my paintings in his presence, he got very put off. I wasn’t old and wise enough to master the art of praising him to detract from myself. To be honest, his drawing skills didn’t make praise come easily, either. Perhaps women should also stick with men who are better at certain things than they are.

    “19. Stay sober. Don’t be a sloppy drunk, it signals low value in every conceivable way. He might enjoy getting to see you tipsy now and then, but blackout drunk is never attractive.”

    —I used to work with a guy who had the most adorable and gorgeous girlfriend. I never saw this lady without heels and a dress. But at the end of every colleagues’ party, she would be absolutely smashed. Her falling to the floor became the official party ender. I remember helping to carry her to the car once. At a wedding, she wound up hiding in the bushes. They eventually broke up.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Oh, and the advice is all excellent, by the way. Great advice regarding player avoidance, too. They can’t be swayed and are only trying to fool you if they tell you so. I imagine that one thing better than a pump and dump for a player is a pump and dump with a bonus home cooked meal.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I imagine that one thing better than a pump and dump for a player is a pump and dump with a bonus home cooked meal.

      Ouch! That does add insult to injury.

  • Sassy6519

    Great post once again Susan! You’ve hit this one straight out of the park.

    Out of all of the tips, the section I seem to have the hardest time doing well is emotionally escalating. I think I’m supportive, nurturing, and feminine towards the men I date, but I’ve had 4 different men tell me that I’m “not emotional enough”. They have all said the exact same thing. I’m not naive enough to assume that the problem is with the guys either. If 4 different men all say the same thing, the problem is with me.

    The question is how can I foster a more emotionally expressive personality? I think that my Myer-Briggs personality profile plays a big part in this. My ENTP ways probably do come off as more “cold” or “masculine” to some men. What can I do to appear more feminine and warm, personality wise?

    The crazy thing is that I’ve done almost everything on this list, but I guess there is something lacking in the transmission and translation. Is it possible that I still appear cold and emotionless, despite doing the things on this list?

    This feels like an “Is this real life” moment.

  • Blue Velvet

    Ramble, I’m a sprouter and major eater of living foods myself, and that is even less time consuming than cooking, unless you go the gourmet route with dehydrator and all that. But your main point was that men who are busy with education or work don’t have time for cooking. THEY DO. If they don’t, how do you suggest they eat when they are single, drive-thrus? Boiling rice and steaming veggies, even if not sprouted or fermented, is STILL healthier than eating out most of the time.

  • Blue Velvet

    “But don’t ever be better or more knowledgable in his interest than he is. If you naturally are, pretend you’re not, if that helps. In high school I dated a guy who loved to draw. When people praised my paintings in his presence, he got very put off. I wasn’t old and wise enough to master the art of praising him to detract from myself. To be honest, his drawing skills didn’t make praise come easily, either. Perhaps women should also stick with men who are better at certain things than they are.”

    If you have to pretend with somebody there is absolutely no future in a relationship.

  • Blue Velvet

    Sassy, just find a guy who thinks emotional women are clingy and psycho. He’ll appreciate your cool demeanor. :)

  • van Rooinek

    Great list for wives (and, except for the sin of premarital sex, for girfriends). Also, much of this stuff is good for boyfriends/husbands too. But… one item is totally wrong:

    24. Connect emotionally during and after sex

    Uh, no. Sex is not an emotional event for men. Women characteristically and universally don’t get this, which is why they have sex with guys to make them fall in love. It DOES NOT WORK… men fall in love by a completely different pathway that need not involve physical contact at all, and conversely a sexual encounter does not create or deepen feelings that weren’t already there. The male brain simply doesn’t work like that.

    Sex, for women, is love. Sex, for men, is food. So leave the emotional expressions out of sex. It’s not welcome. Even if he loves you enough to marry you… even if you’re married for many years and have a bunch of kids… leave the emotion out of sex.

    Trying to connect emotionally during sex:
    wife: oh… ah… oh…. ah……. i love you so much…. oh…. ah…..
    husband: {thinking:} Of course, I love you too… but why talk about that now, can’t you see we’re having SEX ?!?!?!?!

    After sex, it’s even worse:
    wife: I love you so much.
    husband: zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @van Rooinek

      It DOES NOT WORK… men fall in love by a completely different pathway that need not involve physical contact at all, and conversely a sexual encounter does not create or deepen feelings that weren’t already there. The male brain simply doesn’t work like that.

      From Helen Fisher:

      Helen Fisher: Everybody’s always wondered what happens in the brain when you’ve fallen in love, and we all know actually how you feel when you fall in love. But actually, what happens in the brain is, a tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral tegmental area become active, and in some particular cells, called the A10 cells, they begin to make dopamine. Dopamine is a natural stimulant. And from the ventral tegmental area it’s sent too many brain regions, particularly the reward system; the brain system for wanting, for craving, for seeking, for addiction, for motivation and in this case, the motivation to win life’s greatest prize, which is a good mating partner.

      Question: Can casual sex trigger love?

      Helen Fisher: I think that all three of these brain systems can interact with one another, particularly when you have sex with somebody. Any kind of sexual stimulation of the genitals triggers the dopamine system in the brain and can push you over that threshold into falling in love with that person. And in fact, with orgasm, there’s a real flood of oxytocin and vasopressin, other chemicals in the brain associated with the feeling of deep attachment. So, casual sex is really never casual unless you’re so drunk you can’t remember it; something happens. As a matter of fact, in one study of over a thousand people, over 50% of both men and women reported that their first kiss of somebody was sort of the kiss of death. They had begun quite attracted to a person sexually and romantically and then when they kissed them, it was so horrible for them that it turned them off completely. So, casual sex is just plain old not casual. Something can happen. You can either fall madly in love with this person, or you can begin a deep sense of attachment to them.

      http://bigthink.com/ideas/18575

      I recall one time early in my relationship with my husband. We had just had sex, and I got a bit teary. Alarmed, he asked me what was wrong. I said, “Nothing, I’m just happy.” His response was amazing – a surge of affection and immediate re-arousal in record time. I think I trace his falling in love with me to that precise moment.

  • HanSolo

    @van Rooinek

    I would disagree with this, at least on a personal level. For me, the highest goal I have in sex is to have a deep, bonding experience where we transcend from merely fucking to having our souls intertwined. However, I think I am on the more romantic end of the spectrum and so I would be curious about what most men think about this.

    The way you’re describing sex seems more like a man who is not in love with the woman (maybe he loves her in a companionate kind of way) and just wants to cum and fall asleep.

    I think men have 2 compartments for sex. 1 is emotionless and just wants it to be pleasurable and to cum. 2 is for sex with deep emotion and passion that is pleasurable but much more as well.

    In fact, I often tell women that the way to tell if the man is really in love with her is to see how he acts after he orgasms. Once that driving urge is released and all the bullshit that men can fake about how he likes a woman is no longer needed, see how he acts.

    Again, I’m more romantic than most men so maybe the average man is more of just a cold fucker. But I think not. I think you’re describing men more on the other end of the spectrum from me and not the ones in the middle. But I could be wrong. Cheers.

  • HanSolo

    @van Rooinek

    I do agree though that women should not try to fuck a man into loving her. He’s going to basically already be feeling some amount of love or pre-love or he’s not. Sex WILL NOT make a man love you that doesn’t love you. For the borderline cases, good sex can tip it in your favor and bad sex can end it.

  • Blue Velvet

    @Cooper, ” @Susan Can you please help me understand the two immutable biological imperatives, that we’d talk about earlier. I still really do not understand.
    Is our biology supposed to never be excused? Or are we supposed to avoid it?
    Do women embrace hypergamy, or do they avoid it?
    According to these biological imperatives, is a man right in seeking “access to sex with as few complications or commitments as possble?”
    Does being a man mean I’m supposed to escalate with women I have no intensions, or foresight, of giving commitment to?
    It seems like both biological imperative exist to serve each individual sex, while signaling long-term commitment risks towards the opposite.
    How are we supposed to deal with these two? (ie are men right in avoiding a hypergamous women, and how should women feel about a ‘variety-seeking’ man?)
    Is a monogamous relationship always suppose to be built on both sexes renouncing their imperatives?”

    Coop, there’s a period in youth when both sexes are given space to act out their biological imperatives. Its called “sowing oats” and is allotted for from late teens through early twenties. By mid twenties our culture expects us to reign ourselves in and settle down.

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Ramble,
    There is actually a fair amount of effort and knowledge needed to be a competent cook. Things like, understand how certain things keep, and what does not. What is spoiling and what is, simply, delicious funky cheese. Understanding what cuts (of meat, poultry, fish) can be “stretched” and what can not. What foods are are more economical and which are not. How to diversify your families diet. How to plan meals for the week. How to “put up” fruit and veg. etc. etc.
    ………………
    Now, assuming that you want to live in a society with lots of good engineers, doctors, scientists, surgeons, researchers, lab techs and fairly advanced technology, plumbers, carpenters, electricians and, in general, lots of good technology (and, understanding that most of thee jobs will be filled by men…men who needed to dedicate a fair amount of time learning these skills to begin with) then it is shortsighted to say, “Well, young men, you should be learning how to cook TOO”.

    If they do, great. But, if the ignore that particular task to become an accomplished General Contractor, well, that is more than OK, in my book.

    Learning what it takes to become a competent cook doesn’t take a whole lot of brain power to the point of it keeping you from focusing on becoming a scientist, contractor, doctor, engineer, etc., etc. Not to mention that you would need to learn this stuff (or most of it) while you’re supporting yourself. As for meal plans and diversifying your family’s diet, I can see how these two things would be a little more complicated, but nowadays, many mothers work outside the home so they would have to do both.

  • Richard Aubrey

    One reason to be interested in his interests is to have something to talk about. Not the bonding, relationship, enhancing talk. Normal conversation. That can’t be done if one party has no clue what you’re talking about and so an important part of his life is closed off.
    If he’s interested in it, he thinks it’s important–unless it’s just sports–and if it’s important, there’s something wrong–mildly–with somebody else who doesn’t think so.
    You don’t need, for example, thinking back thirty years, to know the order of battle for the Red Army in East Germany. It does show some concern if you know/knew something because if things went south, it would be a Big Deal and somebody might call him to see if he remembers how to read a map; one of those with all the tanks and stuff on it. The idea interests him. Did me.
    Or perhaps it’s Civil War reenactment.
    Or coin collecting. That could mean money in, or out, and a rider on your insurance. Going “what for? Some old coins? Sheesh.” is not a good idea.
    The other thing is people tend to bond with those sharing some of their interests…. If it’s not you, it will be somebody else. Could be innocent. But why take the chance?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Basically, traditional home economics, nutrition (soak your grains, soak your oats, acidic things like pickles and relishes help digest foods, etc.), nourishment, etc.

    Who teaches those things here? I mean I know all that because I come from a traditional culture but in here is mostly “open jar, put together, cook, eat” So this traditional healthy cooking is kind of hard to find so where do women that want to learn this can find it?

  • Blue Velvet

    “F) Accepting that men are eternal children and finding a way to credibly signal that the man you are with is the hottest, most asskicking alpha in the world as far as you are concerned, and praising these traits frequently. Even if he is a classic low-N, harmless beta provider, tell him that he’s a badass and make him feel dangerous. Routinely compare him favorably to predatory animals, superheroes, or even action toys like Optimus Prime.”

    Hilarious!

  • http://eoinmacaodh.wordpress.com/ Eoin MacAodh

    Nice list.

    In the spirit of feedback, I’ll say that 5, 12, and 16 are the ones where I’ve seen the most spectacular failures. By “spectacular” I mean the kind that would either A) create a new inside joke for the guy’s circle of friends, or B) make the mere mention of the girls’ name set off a powderkeg for years to come. To expand:

    5) Have eyes for no one but him – jealousy is probably the most powerful emotion people have. We used to have a term, “crime of passion,” which was recognized in certain places like France as a mitigating factor in murder cases – catch your wife with another man, and you won’t be punished as harshly for killing him and/or her as for killing anyone else. While I don’t support that as a legal doctrine, is does very realistically illustrate just how much you can twist the knife in a guy’s heart with a wandering eye. Don’t screw this one up.

    12) Be a pressure relief valve – Don’t take this to mean you can’t let him know about your problems. What it means is that you should not bother him with problems that don’t have a solution. If the solution is putting some jerk in his place, changing a tire, mediating a dispute, or just holding you while you cry for a few minutes, that’s fine. If you bring him a problem that has no solution, all it can possibly do is add to his stress. Your bestie had a fight with you? Ask him to hold you. Your bestie had the third fight this week? Stop bothering him with your personal crap. Easy, bright-line rule.

    16) Maintain privacy as a couple – If you’re not his first girlfriend, he will assume that nothing is private between you. You cannot tell him you’re different, he won’t believe it. If your friends don’t know about things, he will assume they are good liars. His mind will only change slowly, over time, as he starts to trust that you’re keeping things confidential. This is an easy one to screw up, because he only needs to see evidence of indiscretion once to assume it happens all the time. This is important because this is the line between a guy who dates you for the sex and intimacy and a guy who actually sees a future with you. The first time he finds out that your bestie knows he is afraid of iguanas, you’re done. Unless he’s too beta to do anything but resign himself to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Eoin

      Great feedback there, thank you! One clarification: When I suggest that the woman should be a pressure relief valve, I mean that she should actively work to reduce his stress, not her own. What usually happens though, is that if she is a good and supportive listener, and doesn’t gripe about his needing to vent sometimes, he will generally return the favor. My husband and I do this for each other, but you’re right – it only works because we don’t need to do it very often. Also, it goes in waves. If he is having a rough patch at work, there may be weeks of debriefing during dinner where I’m doing all the listening. If I’m up against it, he’ll patiently be there for me. As you say, this should be reserved for important stuff, not complaining about how rude the supermarket cashier was.

  • http://eoinmacaodh.wordpress.com/ Eoin MacAodh

    Now, assuming that you want to live in a society with lots of good engineers, doctors, scientists, surgeons, researchers, lab techs and fairly advanced technology, plumbers, carpenters, electricians and, in general, lots of good technology (and, understanding that most of thee jobs will be filled by men…men who needed to dedicate a fair amount of time learning these skills to begin with) then it is shortsighted to say, “Well, young men, you should be learning how to cook TOO”.

    Well, I did study for those nice useful skills and I learned to be a pretty good cook, too. It’s meditative. But now I don’t really benefit from dating a girl who can cook, it’s just a bonus. By way of example: a few months back, a nice girl invited me to her house and made breakfast for dinner. She made everything with instant mix. I was very pleased, and I told her so… but just going through the motions only gets a person so far. I didn’t have the heart to tell her that the next time she did that, it wasn’t impressive. It’s easy to look forward to “My girlfriend’s secret roast recipe.” It’s hard to look forward to “My girlfriend’s Bisquick.” Anticipation is part of the bond.

    @ Anacoana

    If you have a friend in the restaurant business, that’s one way to learn. I was fortunate enough to have two parents and a grandmother to learn from, but most of my skills come from my undergrad roommate. The man had been a sushi chef and an Irish pub griller for a few years before I met him. He showed me some tricks, mostly involving seasoning and timing. That’s the real skill: learning to make two or three dishes at once. Getting the timing down for an appetizer, a main course, and a desert all at once takes practice, but it never fails to impress.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      By way of example: a few months back, a nice girl invited me to her house and made breakfast for dinner. She made everything with instant mix. I was very pleased, and I told her so… but just going through the motions only gets a person so far. I didn’t have the heart to tell her that the next time she did that, it wasn’t impressive. It’s easy to look forward to “My girlfriend’s secret roast recipe.” It’s hard to look forward to “My girlfriend’s Bisquick.”

      That’s a swing and a miss for sure. I actually love the breakfast for dinner idea, though I would probably go for homemade corned beef hash or at least a nice frittata. It sounds like you’re a foodie, and you need to date a foodie.

      We need Escoffier to weigh in on this discussion.

  • Mike C

    Good post and solid list. Any woman who follows these 25 concepts, and is at least somewhat physically attractive will be in good shape to get the relationship she wants.

  • Mike C

    Every young person should learn to cook.

    I understand why you are saying this, but, I don’t agree. There is a reason that, in almost every culture, young men (and I am specifically talking about young men) did not focus on that task.

    There is actually a fair amount of effort and knowledge needed to be a competent cook.

    Ramble,

    I think there are different proficiency levels for things. Can I “cook”? Well, I can fry a hamburger, I can make scrambled eggs and an omelette, I can make pancakes. But if I went into a kitchen with Escoffier, I’d look like a complete moron. I think when it comes to skill sets, people have to decide if they want to be a mile wide and an inch deep, or a few inches wide and a mile deep. My personal preference is to have 2-3 things where I excel greater than 99.9% of the rest of the population, and then be just functional in alot of other things over being a jack of all trades master of none.

    So. Yeah. I think a man should learn how to cook but just the very basics at minimum if he has no interest in preparing complex multiple course meals.

  • Mike C

    We need to make it OK for women to dedicate themselves to pleasing their mates as a way of ultimately pleasing themselves. More giving, and less taking. And more assumption of personal risk – back to the idea that it’s the woman’s job to escalate emotionally.

    Susan,

    In the spirit of agreement :), I can enthusiastically cosign this! :)

  • Claire

    Whilst I agree with almost all of the posts, I’m going to go against the grain here and disagree with numbers 14 & 15.

    14 – “Lower your expectations”: this could be a little dangerous, especially if a girl’s expectation is to be treated with respect at all times. There are some expectations that need to be maintained for everyone’s sake.

    15 – “Never ask him to account for his time, and don’t ask him how he knows that girl at the bar” – while this would work in a mutually respectful, loving and positive relationship, if the relationship is not so positive, a girl should have the courage to make an empirical inquiry based on facts. Also, being honest often trumps emotional repression.

    I agree with the general philosophy that girls/women need to lose the entitlement attitude. However it has been demonstrated through famous social psychological experiments (e.g. Stanford Prison experiment) that once people, even good natured people, feel as if they have power over another, they can and will often abuse it.

    Being nurturing, whilst expecting respectful treatment at all times, is arguably a better approach than just being nurturing unconditionally.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Claire

      “Lower your expectations”: this could be a little dangerous, especially if a girl’s expectation is to be treated with respect at all times. There are some expectations that need to be maintained for everyone’s sake.

      I cosign this.

      “Never ask him to account for his time, and don’t ask him how he knows that girl at the bar” — while this would work in a mutually respectful, loving and positive relationship, if the relationship is not so positive, a girl should have the courage to make an empirical inquiry based on facts. Also, being honest often trumps emotional repression.

      And this.

      The post presumes that the woman has qualified the male as worthy of an LTR. Putting this kind of effort into a guy who doesn’t like you or appears to avoid relationships is masochism!

  • Emily

    >> “But, Ramble, if they are together, then that must mean that he is already sexually attracted to her.

    No, it doesn’t.”

    Wait, WHAT?!

    I mean, I could understand this if she’s “let herself go” since the beginning of the relationship, but do guys regularly get into relationships with girls who they aren’t sexually attracted to?

  • Mike C

    About the shared interests: so many young guys play video games nowadays that I think it’s worthwhile for girls to look into it.

    Yup. As Bastiat said, this is the kind of thing that can get a woman automatically into the “cool chick” category.

  • Emily

    Re: Cooking

    I feel like this always gets overemphasized. The few times I’ve tried to cook for guys (the present bf included), they were kind of indifferent to it. Maybe they’re just weird. :S

    This is a great post though! I’d love to see more “Girl Game” stuff.

  • Blue Velvet

    “We need to make it OK for women to dedicate themselves to pleasing their mates as a way of ultimately pleasing themselves. More giving, and less taking. And more assumption of personal risk – back to the idea that it’s the woman’s job to escalate emotionally.”

    More assumption of personal risk than him? Why? Escalating emotionally means sitting him down to have “the talk” and inquire about “where is this relationship headed”? That can scare guys off. Do you mean being the first to say the dreaded 3 words “I love you”?

    The give and take should be mutual.

    “Never ask him to account for his time”

    Why not?

    This list of 25 is actually two different lists merged into one. One is a list of things aptly titled “ways to make him your boyfriend” and the other is after he already is your boyfriend and you are in a committed relationship. While I would not ask a guy I’m casually dating to account for his time, I would ask my boyfriend to and DEFINITELY my husband. Also, I would not be “unconditionally generous” or unconditionally anything with a man who has not committed to me. What has he done to deserve unconditional treatment?

  • Mike C

    I should have dedicated this post to Mike C. He felt the loss of the post with real examples of emo escalation, and said that he likes posts giving women advice on how to be more relationship worthy. I had him in mind when I wrote it.

    Susan, if you were a guy, I’d have to say you could run some tight game I’m sure :) You got some good push-pull going :)

    Seriously though, again, very good post, and I have someone I am going to pass this along to who I think could be genuinely helped by incorporating some of the items here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Susan, if you were a guy, I’d have to say you could run some tight game I’m sure You got some good push-pull going

      You really got me thinking when you talked about what kind of posts you’d like to see more of. You were right – Girl Game, or something like it should be my bread and butter.

      On the other hand, it’s vitally important that I get the market analysis right. For example, Girl Game posts make no sense if few women want relationships…

  • Gorb

    I can see feminists generally being appalled by this list, but all of the things on this list can almost always apply to men, too, in some way or other.

    what you’re doing is telling people to be decent, interested, focused and not frivolous or narcississtic.

    Alas, the players and feminists of the world tend to be, at beat, bean-counters when it comes to relationships or complete narcissists.

    The most important thing about this list: It illustrates that you’re a man’s partner.

    I would add–

    Only, and ONLY, do this for a man who is interested in being YOUR partner.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gorb

      Only, and ONLY, do this for a man who is interested in being YOUR partner.

      Definitely. That is why I listed the things women should be seeing from men every step of the way. In the past I’ve gotten some pushback from guys re consistency, because they feel (not incorrectly) that some push-pull is often required. I think a man can hold back a bit to create or cement attraction, but it’s very high risk for women to try and discern whether guys are assholes, or just “pretend assholes” trying to win them over.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Getting the timing down for an appetizer, a main course, and a desert all at once takes practice, but it never fails to impress.

    Yeah but I was thinking more of recommending a book or a TV program food network should have this things shouldn’t it?

  • Mike C

    Escalating emotionally means sitting him down to have “the talk” and inquire about “where is this relationship headed”? That can scare guys off. Do you mean being the first to say the dreaded 3 words “I love you”?

    Escalating emotionally isn’t about having “the talk” or asking “where is this relationship headed”. Escalating emotionally isn’t about displaying genuine warmth, interest in him as a human being, and forging a connection. If you do that, then having “the talk” won’t even be something that scares him off.

    While I would not ask a guy I’m casually dating to account for his time, I would ask my boyfriend to and DEFINITELY my husband.

    Not sure exactly what you mean by this, but if my fiancee popped off with a “what were you doing on day A at time X” in an inquisitive tone, I’d be like WTF.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Not sure exactly what you mean by this, but if my fiancee popped off with a “what were you doing on day A at time X” in an inquisitive tone, I’d be like WTF.

      Agreed. Any kind of suspicious talk is a real drag for guys – I hear this all the time. Usually, it’s not justified. I do think that light stalking on Facebook, the increasing tendency for women to go through men’s phones, etc. is a serious problem. Often the questions and suspicions come out of that.

      I know one case where the woman managed to watch her bf like a hawk to ascertain what he typed for all his passwords. Soon she was regularly checking his phone and private Facebook messages. This was in the first six months of their relationship. She found some exchanges between him and an ex. He was definitely flirting, but his ex was the one initiating. This made my young friend crazy, but she had no way to ask him about it without confessing she’d invaded his privacy. She became obsessive about checking his phone every time he left it unattended. She learned that he’d seen his ex on a trip home, but there was no reference to hooking up.

      It’s now been two years, and they are planning to move in together. She wants to marry him, and to her knowledge he has never cheated on her and he seems content in the relationship. Clearly, she made a big production out of nothing, or next to nothing. To this day, she still occasionally checks his messages just to reassure herself. It’s a prison of her own making.

      There is no upside to snooping.

  • Blue Velvet

    “5) Have eyes for no one but him – jealousy is probably the most powerful emotion people have. …you can twist the knife in a guy’s heart with a wandering eye. Don’t screw this one up.”

    This is another one that goes on the committed relationship/marriage list. Casual dating by nature means you will be sizing other people up for potential dates too.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Plain Jane alert

    Seriously Plain Jane what the fuck do you win with this sick game?
    I mean this is gold advice for women that want to find a mate and be happy do you hate women so much that you want them being unhappy for the sake of what? Some pride in yelling “I’m empowered, I never did anything to make a man happy so I’m better than women that do!”
    Those words won’t keep you warm at night, they won’t grow old with you and they won’t cry with you when you have a problem, they won’t give you children to cherish and love. If marrying your pride would made women happy they wouldn’t be a need for this advice.
    Or are you a lonely woman that can only gather attention and human interaction by harassing a blog? You know the best cure for loneliness? Find other people, and don’t be a jerk to them, they might stick around if you are, you know, pleasant at least occasionally. Heck you can find other harpies even and talk about how better than other women all of you are and leave us alone.

  • http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/ MarkyMark

    If a gal does all these things, she will not only make the man her boyfriend; she’ll make him her husband! I’d marry a woman like this-IF I could find her, that is. Ah, but modern women would rather DIE than even think about doing something nice for their man…

  • http://markymarksthoughts.blogspot.com/ MarkyMark

    I’ll find a woman like this at the same time I find a unicorn in real life-ha!

  • Abbot

    “there’s a period in youth when both sexes are given space to act out their biological imperatives. Its called “sowing oats” and is allotted for from late teens through early twenties. By mid twenties our culture expects us to reign ourselves in and settle down.”

    Given space by whom? Allotted by whom? Accepted by whom following this so-called “period”? Reigning yourself in does not get you a free pass with men. That is NOT how they feel about it. The angst among CERTAIN women regarding this is palpable.

    “Sowing” is an effort; it requires work. The recipient and beneficiary of all the seed who made no effort has no reason to expect acceptance for not exercising restraint while easily and repeatedly laying around.

    sow1    [soh] verb, sowed, sown or sowed, sow·ing.
    verb (used with object)
    1. to scatter (seed) over land, earth, etc., for growth; plant.
    2. to plant seed for: to sow a crop.
    3. to scatter seed over (land, earth, etc.) for the purpose of growth.
    4. to implant, introduce, or promulgate; seek to propagate or extend; disseminate: to sow distrust or dissension.
    5. to strew or sprinkle with anything.

    Then ONLY men sow their oats. Women have nothing to sow and no reason to. Why do ONLY North American and some European women suggest otherwise? Women from nearly everywhere else would belly flop laugh at such notions.

  • Tom

    Reigning yourself in does not get you a free pass with men. That is NOT how they feel about it.
    _____
    Well half of them anyway…..

  • Hope (the other one)

    Oh, Susan – Amazing, beautiful, extremely helpful post! Will commit this one to memory. Aside from the sex stuff, I feel like most of these things could make up the formula for success in any relationship. Great insight and wisdom – thank you :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @The other Hope

      I’m glad you like the post, and I knew that several of my female readers would omit the Sex Goddess part. That’s OK, it just gives you fewer steps to follow!

  • Just1X

    @Abbot

    I’m prepared to believe 50% of men don’t care about her ‘N’ being high, as long as they’re just looking for a quickie. I’m sure that they tighten standards when considering anything serious.

    Tom is over excited (as usual) because of that crap question in the older survey. Crap because it did not specify what level of relationship was being considered when the level of N was considered.

    If you ask a 18y.o. spunk monkey how much he cares about her N when he’s looking a quick shag…are you really surprised when he says he doesn’t care?

    Ask the same question of a 35y.o. looking for a potential wife…you won’t get the same answer (in the real world)

    in Tom’s world you’ll get the same tired old drivel about ‘cave man thinking’. He sounds like a superannuated hippy mmmmkay?

    Crap surveys use crap questions to give crap answers

  • Abbot

    “women in the 5-7 range are aggressively pursuing casual sex, then both male 5-7s and female 8-10s are displaced, which is what I have previously argued”

    and does coincide with slut-class confirmation from Joel-

    “the majority of the average and below average women from the Western world are definitively, massively more sexual active than most of the men in their league”

    Since the majority of women and men are average, what happens when these plain Jims FINALLY encounter these plain Janes recently fallen from their artificially constructed lofty perches couched as luvy wuvy “expressing” and “exploring” and “empowering” and all, hmmmm?

  • Ramble

    But your main point was that men who are busy with education or work don’t have time for cooking.

    No, that was not my main point. My main point is that advising all young people that they “learn to cook” is nowhere near ideal for a healthy society.

    Simply learning how to make baked cutlets is not enough to nourish a family. And nourishing a family will continue to be “women’s work”. Or, it will be the work of your local mega-mart, which is not a good strategy.

    So, we need to start instilling in girls that to properly nourish their children (and husbands) there is a fair amount that they need to learn. And that they should know the bulk of it before they have their first child which is likely to happen before they are, say, 26-27 (Well, not likely, but that is a whole other discussion that also involves having healthy children) .

  • Ramble

    Learning what it takes to become a competent cook doesn’t take a whole lot of brain power to the point of it keeping you from focusing on becoming a scientist, contractor, doctor, engineer, etc., etc.

    I am starting to regret that I chose the word “cook”. I should have said, “nourish a family”.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    cool list and mostly positive discussion, HUS is on form today

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      cool list and mostly positive discussion, HUS is on form today

      Thanks, it’s a nice way to go into a weekend :)

  • Abbot

    “Tom is over excited (as usual) because of that crap question in the older survey. Crap because it did not specify what level of relationship was being considered when the level of N was considered.”

    Note, there is no longer any mention of women being denigrated by men for fucking around. Because, well, they are not denigrated. There is no longer any mention of women having restriction on their promiscuity. Because, well, it is abundantly obvious there are none. There is no longer any mention of a man’s willingness to fuck women no matter their pasts. Because, well, its a fact they don’t care. Now, therefore, the entire focus is on men – not women – and their willingness, however begrudgingly, to discard their natural tendencies and commit their entire lives to sluts. Why this focus? Because as the slut-class grows, as more women pound their youths away in the harem, there is a very real problem waiting for them upon exit: the lack of men willing to accommodate their fuck-to-family-transition fantasy. This entire “matter” is about the men or lack thereof. There is no other topic or issue to point to anymore.

  • Ramble

    Who teaches those things here?

    No one.

    .
    .
    .

    Well, you can still find a few people who know the old stuff, but they are a dying breed. However, there is a growing interest in the subject, but they make up a fairly small minority.

  • Just1X

    @Abbot
    if it weren’t for the fact that my taxes are used to subsidise single parents and the related costs to society (lauranorder,drunk kids on the streets) I’d be a highly interested on looker when this society plays out. ‘Where are all the good men?’ looks like the response to the first generation hitting the buffers (or wall). Enjoy the decline, ‘cos it’s not in our abilities to stop it.

  • Ramble

    I mean, I could understand this if she’s “let herself go” since the beginning of the relationship, but do guys regularly get into relationships with girls who they aren’t sexually attracted to?

    In short, “Yes”.

    Some really basic factors:
    1. Girls, and guys, are fatter than ever (along with the other things that come along with higher-carb, higher-sugar diets like bad skin)
    2. Men, like anyone else, get lonely.

    But, ask yourself this, those guys (regardless of their weight) you see with heavier girls: what kind of posters did they have on their walls in high school?

    I understand that every guy is not going to end up with a bikini model. No big deal. But it does suggest that guys, in general, have the same sexual attraction cues as anyone else.

    But, if the guy is lonely and horny, he can re-prioritize/rationalize to deal with it.

  • Ramble

    I feel like this always gets overemphasized. The few times I’ve tried to cook for guys (the present bf included), they were kind of indifferent to it. Maybe they’re just weird.

    Emily, for what it’s worth, I don’t actually disagree with you.

    I don’t think it is a big deal to your average 25 year old guy. But, the discussion got started because I was reacting to, “Feed him when he’s hungry.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, re: party/non-party subcultures in college. I’m seeing this weird offshoot of the “study hard”, ambitious female demographic that embraces a limited, extreme-hypergamy offshoot of hook-up culture (they probably will not touch a guy below SMV-8). I don’t know what to call these girls, but “alpha females” seems to be the most accurate description. They use everything—brains, boobs, whatever—to outcompete others.

    If there is a common denominator, it is that they seem to be the ones who have the most vitriolic distaste for the idea of ever relying on a man for economic or emotional support (for various reasons—not necessary because they hate men. Some just seem to detest “domesticated” women), and so they have been driven since at least high school towards wild over-achievement in various activity categories (one of the most sexually voracious that I know of is currently abroad as a Rhodes Scholar).

    Coops, re: biological imperatives. We’re seeing a positive-affect movement emerging from evo psych that is concerned with what really makes people happy. There is a so-called “emotional command system” in the brain that contains neural circuits which are associated with various emotional experiences and displays—if you were to electrically stimulate, say, the RAGE circuit in rat’s brain then that rat would actually display violent anger. I think that an understanding of these circuits—allowing for individual variations in sensitivity, of course—could lead to a more psychologically satisfying existence, as one could be more precise in crafting the right “brain nourishment environment” around oneself.

    For instance, I feel that I’m not specifically wired for either STRs or LTRs per se, but I have dopamine-mediated psychological requirements that would generally not be satisfied by a conventional LTR. As a result, my past romantic history looks like a volatile landscape of churning, high-N accumulation casual periods punctuated by LTRs that tend to begin and end with some inevitable and perhaps unfortunate “plate-spinning” at the boundary transitions between the two mating regimes.

    I realize that if I am to feel satisfied, to not have buyer’s remorse-type regrets, to not become dangerous to myself/others, I personally need an LTR structure that somehow maintains the emotional and sexual dynamics of courtship. I guess one could say that this makes me an “asshat” by some HUS definitions, but I’ve made peace with this because asshats like me are the ones that Uncle Sam gets to jump out of airplanes or dive under ships at night, and HNW clients seeking alternative investment exposure can get to trade futures accounts for them and count on to make money when others are being destroyed.

    Much of my romantic efforts are now directed towards figuring out how to build an LTR with repeated pulses of STR dopamine kick. Others may not have the same needs.

    If you haven’t had a chance, you might take the online Helen Fisher “mating types” quiz and see where you fall within her little matrix. It’s an imprecise, quasi-scientific tool, but I think it can have great explanatory power that MBTI may occasionally obfuscate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I’m seeing this weird offshoot of the “study hard”, ambitious female demographic that embraces a limited, extreme-hypergamy offshoot of hook-up culture (they probably will not touch a guy below SMV-8). I don’t know what to call these girls, but “alpha females” seems to be the most accurate description.

      I’m curious, are these women in sororities? I know that at some elite schools, top sororities can boast very high GPAs. It seems difficult to imagine that many people can pull off partying hard while maintaining high grades, though. For example, frats usually don’t include many engineering majors – those guys just don’t have time for play.

      Much of my romantic efforts are now directed towards figuring out how to build an LTR with repeated pulses of STR dopamine kick. Others may not have the same needs.

      Do you mean an open relationship, or do you seek to get the dopamine kick with the LTR partner? If it’s the latter, I have definitely read about that – in fact, it may be Helen Fisher who discussed doing dopamine-related activities together. Perhaps this is why Explorers are best together.

  • pvw

    Anacaona August 10, 2012 at 3:27 am: “Plain Jane alert”

    PVW: Where did “Plain Jane” post?

  • Pingback: Men – The Gatekeepers To Commitment (Long Post) « The Private Man

  • Kathy

    Van Rooinek “Trying to connect emotionally during sex:
    wife: oh… ah… oh…. ah……. i love you so much…. oh…. ah…..
    husband: {thinking:} Of course, I love you too… but why talk about that now, can’t you see we’re having SEX ?!?!?!?!

    After sex, it’s even worse:
    wife: I love you so much.
    husband: zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz”

    Er, no, that’s not necessarily how it is . ;)

    Sheesh van, after I have had multiple orgasms with my man, the last thing I wanna do is chat..
    I just want to feel my man’s body against mine and drift off into a wonderful realxing sleep.

    Mind you, after twenty minutes he’s up for another round..
    And.. I am happy to oblige. ;)

  • Ramble
    She made everything with instant mix. I was very pleased, and I told her so…

    It sounds like you’re a foodie, and you need to date a foodie.

    Haha, she used instant mix for everything, and he was pleased, but that makes him a “foodie”. I love it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Haha, she used instant mix for everything, and he was pleased, but that makes him a “foodie”. I love it.

      It sounded like he was pleased the first time because of her effort, but none too pleased when she sought to repeat the experience. Having said that, Bisquick pancakes are pretty good.

  • Ramble

    Aside from the sex stuff, I feel like most of these things could make up the formula for success in any relationship.

    @ A New Hope

    Why do you think the sex stuff would not work? Or, why do you not want to employ it?

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Fantastic list. I’ve been feeling guilty lately about breaking up with my ex, not because it was the wrong thing to do, but just because I still feel shitty about hurting her like that. This list just piled on a ton to that guilt, because she checked probably 22-23 of these boxes. The big issue for me was that she never really checked no. 11. That for me is huge, given how many interests I have. It makes me feel even worse that right before we broke up she started to show a bit more interest in my interests. However, I think at that point it was too little, too late.

    The only other comment I would have is that for no 21, to be able to do that you have to kill it on the first 20. A guy with options will not stick around for a girl who’s got 8-12 of those first 20 in the hopes of getting to 21. She’s got to really nail 15+ of those to make him wait for 21.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Zach

    The truth is, a girl can do all 25 of these things, and it could still not work out. The timing may be off, the pheromones/bio match might be wrong, whatever. The “fall in love” switch doesn’t always get tripped, no matter how wonderful you are. There are no guarantees.

    Re #21, I’m talking weeks – 4-6 dates, something like that. That should be enough time for both parties to have an idea about where the relationship is headed, or at least their interest in discovering that together.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Susan, I don’t think they party very frequently. The hook-up thing seems to be a kind of escape, an occasional indulgence. It’s appearing like they just don’t have time for LTRs—they are constantly looking at LSAT/GMAT stuff and planning grad schools and careers. On the other hand, they enjoy sex, probably are high T, and so on.

    The stated life blueprint is almost always “following my year of backpacking through Asia and doing the obligatory semester in Florence, I’ll go on to complete my JD/PhD and then get that job with the Swiss biotech company, then buy my BMW, then I’ll find a husband. But I won’t settle; he needs to check off the boxes on this list.”

    AFAIK, these women tend to want a lot of the same things in their mates, so competition for the few males who even have the basic, obvious qualities can become fierce. Now place this intrasexual competition for scarce resources within a group of arguably the most ferociously competitive young women in history, consider how these scarce males would learn to respond to the attention, and we get one aspect of hook-up culture.

    Re: LTR/dopamine. I actually was thinking about a monogamous LTR with the STR dopamine chasers, rather than an open relationship. I agree with you 100% and think that Fisher is absolutely right about Exp-Exp couplings. I believe Explorers are particularly apt to make associations and then to have reflexive approach/withdrawal emotions that are triggered by these associations, so it can be imperative that the LTR partner be associated with fun, playmate-type activities, and that the more tedious, everyday routine stuff of life be separated from the romantic relationship with some kind of firewall (in contrast to “helpmate”-seeking Builders, who might love sharing those everyday domestic chores).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It’s appearing like they just don’t have time for LTRs—they are constantly looking at LSAT/GMAT stuff and planning grad schools and careers. On the other hand, they enjoy sex, probably are high T, and so on.

      That makes sense. “No time for relationships” is definitely a top reason women give for liking hookups. These alpha females probably have strong competitive drive and sex drives as well – the two often go hand in hand. No doubt they’ll be the CEOs, top law partners, etc. who are unlikely to want a traditional marriage and parenting role.

      t can be imperative that the LTR partner be associated with fun, playmate-type activities, and that the more tedious, everyday routine stuff of life be separated from the romantic relationship with some kind of firewall

      That makes me want to go helicopter skiing :)

      Seriously, I think it’s awesome that you know yourself so well – I have no doubt you can forge a strategy to make this work. Your trick may be in finding an Explorer female with a low-ish N, assuming you care about that.

  • Ramble

    It sounded like he was pleased the first time because of her effort, but none too pleased when she sought to repeat the experience.

    I completely understood. However, I would like to think that would NOT make him a foodie.

    Now, if he demanded that his Mole Negro be finished with just the right Mexican Chocolate (assuming that the Almonds that were toasted in lard were unskinned, of course), now, that would be something.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      However, I would like to think that would NOT make him a foodie.

      Now, if he demanded that his Mole Negro be finished with just the right Mexican Chocolate (assuming that the Almonds that were toasted in lard were unskinned, of course), now, that would be something.

      Yes, that would be a true gourmand.

  • Ramble

    The stated life blueprint is almost always “following my year of backpacking through Asia and doing the obligatory semester in Florence, I’ll go on to complete my JD/PhD and then get that job with the Swiss biotech company, then buy my BMW, then I’ll find a husband. But I won’t settle; he needs to check off the boxes on this list.”

    I have only known a few of these people and they are not human. They are textbook memorizing, credential accruing, checklist-feeding automatons.

  • evilalpha

    Walsh,

    I’m impressed. This is exactly what “game”for girls looks like. The irony of course is that your advice is viewed as regressive but is actually way more empowering for girls than the current feminist “wisdom” that my penis definitely prefers.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Susan, that’s a very important point. There are no guarantees in love.

    You can have all the right stuff, batting ~20 or even ~50 pointers, and still not get the guy because he’s just not in love with you. You just weren’t the “Right One.” Often it’s because of some unconscious biological and/or psychological factor.

    Also, most people only truly fall in love a handful of times, and if you catch someone at a bad time, for example they are still in love with someone else and emotionally unavailable, then it’s not going to happen.

    Plus, can you imagine someone like Zach or Bastiat Blogger falling in love with a shy, soft-voiced, sweet and nurturing girl who doesn’t ever party and is a homebody? No way, Jose. :P

  • Jason773

    Very good list Susan.

    Only thing I can personally nit pick at is “avoid controlling and obsessive behavior”. Not saying I want a bunny boiler, but a just a tiny tiny bit of crazy in this area turns me on. For me, it shows a level of investment that can’t be matched in most other ways. This is no good if I’m not as into her as she is into me, but otherwise it’s kind of endearing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      Not saying I want a bunny boiler, but a just a tiny tiny bit of crazy in this area turns me on. For me, it shows a level of investment that can’t be matched in most other ways.

      Interesting! Can you give some examples?

      Do other guys feel that a bit of possessive or controlling behavior signals investment on the girl’s part?

  • evilalpha

    Also, most people only truly fall in love a handful of times, and if you catch someone at a bad time, for example they are still in love with someone else and emotionally unavailable, then it’s not going to happen

    Hope you are projecting a female pysche onto men. A woman can actually steal men away using the above list.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    evilalpha, on that particular point I speak from experience. I had a crush on a guy who was in love with another girl, and I tried to emotionally escalate. No go. Also, she was prettier than me.

  • Sassy6519

    Hope you are projecting a female pysche onto men. A woman can actually steal men away using the above list.

    I don’t doubt that this could happen, but I bet that it’s the exception, not the rule.

    I wouldn’t recommend that women rely on this strategy. Hoping to make a man fall in love with you, when he is still emotionally wrapped up in another woman, seems like a fool’s errand.

    I think women would have a better chance at finding love by only going after emotionally available men.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Hi INTJ. Can you explain what you mean? I don’t remember if you’re a man or a woman so wasn’t sure if ‘us’ is referring to men or women. Thanks.

    I was referring to the idea that although we–men–might like to be with a 10 woman that since we have to pursue and get shot down by the 10 that we soon come to find the range of women that like us and most men will accept this sooner or later and by reasonably happy with it. OTOH, those women who are hypergamous can get STR attention from higher SMV men and maintain loftier expectations for longer. Although in the end, reality eventually dawns on most women too.

    I’m a guy. Looks like I just made a really terrible pun. I was trying to joke about how “gravity” affects women more due to their weight. :D

  • evilalpha

    she was prettier than me

    The list of 25 is for the practical, not for the miracle. Like I said… stop projecting.

  • Mike M.

    Susan, a woman who uses this entire battery won’t get boyfriend, she’ll have a husband. Wrapped around her little finger.

    And as to cooking, allow me to recommend a cookbook. No need for genius, just follow the directions. When I first set up my own home, a Betty Crocker cookbook was one of the first acquisitions.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      I still have my copy of the Betty Crocker Boys and Girls cookbook. I pored over it as a kid! I’ve given the Joy of Cooking many times to young people, it’s also a good basic cookbook. I have to say that my favorite cookbook of all time is The Silver Palate.

  • INTJ

    Hope you are projecting a female pysche onto men. A woman can actually steal men away using the above list.

    Cosign. Many guys are stuck in abusive relationships with girls who provide few of the above 25 items. They normally have too little self-esteem to walk away and end the relationship, but if they’re presented with a much better alternative (i.e. someone who does demonstrate the things Susan listed) then there’s a strong chance they’ll take it.

    I normally disapprove of girls who steal someone’s boyfriend/husband using their youth and/or looks, but I think if a girl steals a guy using this list, it’s indicative that he was in a bad relationship in the first place, and I don’t think her actions are unethical.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    The bar example you gave is something that has happened to me before, where a girl asked because she was possesive of me.

    Another one with my last gf happened at a party. This other girl, a coworker of my roommate, who I never dated or hooked up with (although I heard from my roommate she was interested in me) was apparently giving my gf dirty looks. She commented on this and wanted to make sure I never dated her or did anything with her.

    Then there is other silly stuff like when I was at a dress store with her one time and the three female workers started gawking at me, saying that I looked like Robert Pattinson (which I’ve gotten multiple times before). As we were checking out, the clerk said ‘Bye Edward’ and as I turned to leave I said ‘later Bella’ in a dismissive manner, but the gf was not pleased with the clerk.

    None of it is really a big deal, but I kind of like that she got territorial and protective of me when she sensed others trying to flirt.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      None of it is really a big deal, but I kind of like that she got territorial and protective of me when she sensed others trying to flirt.

      Yeah, I can see that it would feel good to see a woman willing to fight to keep her man.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think around half of this is genetic, and the other half is environmental or cultural.

    I would advice you do some reading on Epigenetics when you have the time, it looks like the missing explanation on why members of the same family sometimes have different outcome is what happened in the womb. Certain genes get activated or not depending on the conditions, diet, levels of stress… during the pregnancy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      That’s a good suggestion re epigenetics, I’ve been interested in learning more about that for a while. I wonder how twin studies fit into this – or are twins going to be identical due to identical exposure?

  • evilalpha

    @Sassy6519
    I don’t doubt that this could happen, but I bet that it’s the exception, not the rule.

    Neither an exception, nor a rule…but vegas odds. And keep in my I’m not telling you this as relationship advice, but rather just keeping it real.

    Don’t wanna scare you, but a “boyfriend” (not talking about cohabitant, fiance, husband) will surely entertain an upgrade offer from a woman with the right combination of near equivalent looks plus feminine wiles from the list. I mean just the sex goddess portion alone will make him stop and think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t wanna scare you, but a “boyfriend” (not talking about cohabitant, fiance, husband) will surely entertain an upgrade offer from a woman with the right combination of near equivalent looks plus feminine wiles from the list. I mean just the sex goddess portion alone will make him stop and think.

      The moral of the story is – these 25 behaviors will also do a good job of keeping a man’s interest. A smart woman will bring her A game and keep it up.

      I will say that I would never recommend a woman employ this strategy with the intention of mate poaching, though I’m sure it’s a go-to strategy for coworkers of good looking married men.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    INTJ, well in the case I was talking about, the guy was friendzoned by the other girl, and I was then friendzoned by the guy who was emotionally unavailable.

    I think the guys in your example are much more likely to be emotionally available. Like Sassy, I was talking about guys who are emotionally unavailable.

  • evilalpha

    Interesting! Can you give some examples?
    Do other guys feel that a bit of possessive or controlling behavior signals investment on the girl’s part?

    Mate guarding behavior can be really hot. Women guard differently than men of course, but it’s still highly noticeable. I like reactive PDA, but snooping really turns me on for some odd reason.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I like reactive PDA, but snooping really turns me on for some odd reason.

      !!! I never cease to learn interesting things about men here.

  • Sassy6519

    Cosign. Many guys are stuck in abusive relationships with girls who provide few of the above 25 items. They normally have too little self-esteem to walk away and end the relationship, but if they’re presented with a much better alternative (i.e. someone who does demonstrate the things Susan listed) then there’s a strong chance they’ll take it.

    I normally disapprove of girls who steal someone’s boyfriend/husband using their youth and/or looks, but I think if a girl steals a guy using this list, it’s indicative that he was in a bad relationship in the first place, and I don’t think her actions are unethical.

    I’m sorry, but I have very little sympathy for such men, and I’d warn women against actively trying to lure men away from other women with such tactics.

    No man is “stuck” in a bad relationship. If a man is miserable in a relationship, he always has the option of getting out of it. If he lacks the confidence, or the proverbial “balls” to end a bad relationship, he deserves whatever he gets. If the relationship sucks that badly, leave. Don’t stay in it and complain about it. Fix your own problems. This advice doesn’t just hold for men. I have as little patience for women who also stay in bad relationships, only to continue complaining about them. Just end it if it sucks that badly.

    As Eleanor Roosevelt once said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.

    In my opinion, trying to lure a man away from his girlfriend seems like a bad idea. I don’t foresee a lot of good things coming from such a situation. What’s to say that he can’t be lured away from you, at some point, if it was so easy to lure him away from another woman? Do women really have to stoop to mate poaching to get anything or anywhere in the dating game? If so, I want no part of it.

  • evilalpha

    Do women really have to stoop to mate poaching to get anything or anywhere in the dating game?

    Stoop? If no girl has tried to “poach” your man, then you don’t have a man of high value. Just sayin’

  • Ramble

    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.

    Children are made to feel inferior all the time.

    Any psychologist worth his salt can make almost anyone feel inferior if they really wanted to.

    I am not trying to make some built in excuse for those looking to have a pity party, but our emotions are what they are for a reason.

    People who never feel inferior, even in the face of widespread, glaring evidence, are not people I would ever want to associate with.

    But, Ramble, in that case, they should consent to feeling inferior.

    Sure, but mantras like Eleanor’s exist so that the people who embrace them can attempt at never feeling inferior again. They are empowered.

    If for some odd reason I ever find myself in a swimming race against Michael Phelps, I hope that one natural reaction I will have is a feeling of swimming inferiority.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I love how Ramble has started anticipating rebuttals and then answering them preemptively.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy6519

    I’m sorry, but I have very little sympathy for such men, and I’d warn women against actively trying to lure men away from other women with such tactics.

    No man is “stuck” in a bad relationship. If a man is miserable in a relationship, he always has the option of getting out of it. If he lacks the confidence, or the proverbial “balls” to end a bad relationship, he deserves whatever he gets. If the relationship sucks that badly, leave. Don’t stay in it and complain about it. Fix your own problems. This advice doesn’t just hold for men. I have as little patience for women who also stay in bad relationships, only to continue complaining about them. Just end it if it sucks that badly.

    As Eleanor Roosevelt once said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.

    I certainly criticize the man for staying in a bad relationship. Just like I criticize women for staying in bad relationships. But you have to realize that considering the attitude of most girls today, his choice is either to get a bad relationship or remain single. What’s wrong with helping him end the relationship by demonstrating that there is an alternative?

    In my opinion, trying to lure a man away from his girlfriend seems like a bad idea. I don’t foresee a lot of good things coming from such a situation. What’s to say that he can’t be lured away from you, at some point, if it was so easy to lure him away from another woman? Do women really have to stoop to mate poaching to get anything or anywhere in the dating game? If so, I want no part of it.

    Treat him like his current girlfriend does, and you’ll deserve it if someone lures him away from you. But continue treating him properly and he’ll appreciate it and stay.

    Again, I’m not talking about the general case of luring a man out of a perfectly good relationship. I’m saying that you shouldn’t rule out a man in a bad relationship just because he isn’t single.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Yes, Evilalpha, I think the poaching behavior is rather rampant because so many women are chasing the same basic checklist.

    There is probably a legit, sustainable competitive advantage involved in the Susan Mating-Success Algo because some women will never, ever embrace the sex goddess thing, let alone the other items on the list. I don’t know why this is, but I suppose that it can seem more ego-validating or reassuring on some level to have a man stick around when you do virtually nothing to please him. How delicious it must be to have him behave like a trained chimp, feeling enfeebled as his T level plummets and he is coerced into performing humiliating domestic tasks in order to be occasionally awarded “well-earned LTR sex” (actual phrase I have seen being used).

    I fear that these are the women who will resent a girl who follows Susan’s blueprint and sets herself up for success, and who will even attempt to sabotage such efforts through faux-sister-solidarity frenemy tactics.

  • Sassy6519

    Stoop? If no girl has tried to “poach” your man, then you don’t have a man of high value. Just sayin’

    I said “stoop” because I don’t think it’s commendable behavior. The men I date do often have other women trying to get their attention, and I just think such women are either slutty or pathetic. I don’t think highly of such women. I think they make fools of themselves. In my mind I’m thinking “How hard is it for you to go after and get a single guy?”

    Mate guarding behavior can be really hot. Women guard differently than men of course, but it’s still highly noticeable. I like reactive PDA, but snooping really turns me on for some odd reason.

    None of it is really a big deal, but I kind of like that she got territorial and protective of me when she sensed others trying to flirt.

    I’ve always suspected that some variation of this was true, but it’s nice to have some confirmation of it.

    I’m not the jealous type, by a long shot, but I get the sense that men need to see at least a little bit of jealous or territorial behavior from the women they date to know that she is truly invested.

    My way of thinking is that I don’t need a man. I want one, and desire to share my life with someone, but I don’t need one. If I see unsolvable problems in a relationship, or I feel like a man is not worth the hassle, I have no problem leaving the relationship. I tend to have the “You can be replaced” attitude, when it comes to dating men.

    Stupid ENTP brain!

    @ Ramble

    I am not trying to make some built in excuse for those looking to have a pity party, but our emotions are what they are for a reason.

    I get that, but it doesn’t change what I said or what I meant by it. Bitching and moaning about a bad relationship, despite one’s power and right to end your misery by ending the relationship, is pathetic. End it. Move on. By staying in the bad relationship, one is basically allowing the bad behavior to continue. As I said earlier, it’s a gender neutral issue for me. Men and women are both guilty of this, and I have little patience for anyone who does it.

    Life is too short to stay in a shitty relationship, and my life is too short to listen to people bitching about their shitty relationships. Either fix the problems, get out of the relationship, or stop complaining to me about it. That’s my mindset whenever someone has continually complained about their supposedly “bad” relationship.

    @ INTJ

    Again, I’m not talking about the general case of luring a man out of a perfectly good relationship. I’m saying that you shouldn’t rule out a man in a bad relationship just because he isn’t single.

    Yes I should, by merit of him not being single.

    Do you know how many opportunities I have had from non-single men offering me a part of themselves? I can’t even count them. Have I ever taken them up on their offers? Not even once. I deserve better, and I go after better.

    I won’t accept crumbs of a man, and I don’t condole trying to emotionally escalate with an already taken man. If a man wants me that badly, he needs to end his relationship well before he even thinks of getting with me.

  • Ramble

    Sassy, everything you said in comment 170 was reasonable. However, I was responding to the use of that mantra. That mantra exists to help us overcome some natural emotional responses. (So many mantras and affirmations attempt to do this.) And I was pointing out how ridiculous it is.

  • Ramble

    Do you know how many opportunities I have had from non-single men offering me a part of themselves? I can’t even count them. Have I ever taken them up on their offers? Not even once. I deserve better, and I go after better.

    I won’t accept crumbs of a man, and I don’t condole trying to emotionally escalate with an already taken man. If a man wants me that badly, he needs to end his relationship well before he even thinks of getting with me.

    Sassy, I am curious…tons of RomComs, as far as I can tell, have a scenario where a guy is in a relationship (that is not right for him, of course) but meets a girl that he has a connection with.

    Fast forward an hour and you see them making out right before he dumps his bitchy girlfriend for his new, true love.

    What do you think of these RomComs? Can you watch them and enjoy them despite the moral differences you may have with the lead characters or do you simply dislike them?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sassy, I am curious…tons of RomComs, as far as I can tell, have a scenario where a guy is in a relationship (that is not right for him, of course) but meets a girl that he has a connection with.

      Fast forward an hour and you see them making out right before he dumps his bitchy girlfriend for his new, true love.

      I don’t know what the percentage is, but a lot of LTRs end because one party met someone they like better. Really, an LTR that is not headed on a straight path to marriage simply means: “I like spending time and having sex with you and I am not spending time or having sex with anyone else right now.” Ending an LTR is simple and quick.

      I’m not a fan of any overlap whatsoever, but I know that at least a kiss is going to have to happen to inspire the switch. I don’t think it’s immoral if the person immediately ends the relationship with no double dipping.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy6519

    My way of thinking is that I don’t need a man. I want one, and desire to share my life with someone, but I don’t need one. If I see unsolvable problems in a relationship, or I feel like a man is not worth the hassle, I have no problem leaving the relationship. I tend to have the “You can be replaced” attitude, when it comes to dating men.

    Stupid ENTP brain!

    In other words you’re unwilling to emotionally invest in a man.

    @ Ramble

    I am not trying to make some built in excuse for those looking to have a pity party, but our emotions are what they are for a reason.

    I get that, but it doesn’t change what I said or what I meant by it. Bitching and moaning about a bad relationship, despite one’s power and right to end your misery by ending the relationship, is pathetic. End it. Move on. By staying in the bad relationship, one is basically allowing the bad behavior to continue. As I said earlier, it’s a gender neutral issue for me. Men and women are both guilty of this, and I have little patience for anyone who does it.

    Life is too short to stay in a shitty relationship, and my life is too short to listen to people bitching about their shitty relationships. Either fix the problems, get out of the relationship, or stop complaining to me about it. That’s my mindset whenever someone has continually complained about their supposedly “bad” relationship.

    Don’t know about Ramble but I was never thinking about the kind of guy who complains about a bad relationship. I was thinking about the kind of guy who is miserable in a bad relationship but thanks to the feminist media thinks that such a relationship is normal. He’s used to them acting mean, and he’s seen the feminist media glorifying such behavior, so he thinks that his relationship is normal.

    @ INTJ

    Yes I should, by merit of him not being single.

    Do you know how many opportunities I have had from non-single men offering me a part of themselves? I can’t even count them. Have I ever taken them up on their offers? Not even once. I deserve better, and I go after better.

    I won’t accept crumbs of a man, and I don’t condole trying to emotionally escalate with an already taken man. If a man wants me that badly, he needs to end his relationship well before he even thinks of getting with me.

    I guess we’re just speaking on different wavelengths or something. These sorts of men are obviously cads and should be avoided at all costs. But what if you meet a nice guy that you like but he’s already in a relationship (albeit to a very mean-sprited girlfriend)? By all means steal him.

    But I guess this goes back to how so many women feel entitled to having men chase them. You’re just unwilling to find a guy you like and make him start liking you in return. Instead, some men have to start liking you and then you can reject/LJBF the ones you don’t like, and then try to choose someone you do like…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble

    Sassy, I am curious…tons of RomComs, as far as I can tell, have a scenario where a guy is in a relationship (that is not right for him, of course) but meets a girl that he has a connection with.

    Fast forward an hour and you see them making out right before he dumps his bitchy girlfriend for his new, true love.

    What do you think of these RomComs? Can you watch them and enjoy them despite the moral differences you may have with the lead characters or do you simply dislike them?

    I’ll watch such movies if someone else suggests them, but I’m always fuming about it in the back of my mind.

    I remember watching the movie “Something Borrowed”, and having to keep myself from yelling at the screen.

    I may not be the most emotionally expressive woman on the planet, but I’m extremely loyal. I see no point in cheating, or helping some already committed man cheat, emotionally or sexually.

    @ INTJ

    In other words you’re unwilling to emotionally invest in a man.

    I’m willing to emotionally invest in a man, but perhaps not to the level that most men want. I remember discussing this a few times on this site with others. I’m loving, but I’m selective about who I open up to. Even when I’m in a relationship, I’m honest by admitting that my love is conditional. I don’t believe in “blind devotion”, and I don’t mind leaving a relationship that isn’t healthy for me. I want to live a happy life, on my own terms, and that can come with or without a man.

    It’s not the most romantic or feminine way of thinking, but it’s what I think.

    I guess we’re just speaking on different wavelengths or something. These sorts of men are obviously cads and should be avoided at all costs. But what if you meet a nice guy that you like but he’s already in a relationship (albeit to a very mean-sprited girlfriend)? By all means steal him.

    But I guess this goes back to how so many women feel entitled to having men chase them. You’re just unwilling to find a guy you like and make him start liking you in return. Instead, some men have to start liking you and then you can reject/LJBF the ones you don’t like, and then try to choose someone you do like…

    I’m not supposed to make an already committed man start liking me. He has a commitment with another woman, of his own volition, and it’s up to him to end that commitment before attempting to get with me.

    I don’t have the time or patience to chase after or “steal” taken men.

    It’s not about LJBF or being pursued. It’s about wanting to date single and unattached men. Has that suddenly become too much to expect? As I said earlier, I’ll opt out if I have to knowingly go after unhappily coupled men. Why can’t such men dump their supposedly lousy girlfriends, then come talk to me?

  • Ramble

    … but I’m always fuming about it in the back of my mind.

    Good for you. If you are going to have a moral code, you might as well stick with it.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    INTJ, without meeting the girlfriend and seeing how she treats him private, how does a new girl know for sure that the guy is being mistreated? If he’s lying to her girlfriend by hiding a new budding romance, couldn’t he also lie to the new girl? Too much potential for drama and crud to hit the fan. So I agree with Sassy about not poaching taken men.

    Plus, people are often talking about how there are lots of single good guys, so why encourage girls to “steal” boyfriends?

  • evilalpha

    My way of thinking is that I don’t need a man. I want one…. I tend to have the “You can be replaced” attitude, when it comes to dating men.
    Stupid ENTP brain!

    You are ENTP black girl who goes by “Sassy” so you better be careful with that “I don’t need a man” tude. For someone with your profile this can come off “independent” and I don’t mean in a good way. Short girls can wear 5 inch heels. Tall girls can’t. You need this list 25 point list more than you realize.

    I’ve always suspected that some variation of this was true, but it’s nice to have some confirmation of it.

    Yes men feel that the green eyed monster is flattering…
    However do men NEED to see it, or rather do we WANT to see it?? Just asking

  • Sassy6519

    @ evilalpha

    You are ENTP black girl who goes by “Sassy” so you better be careful with that “I don’t need a man” tude. For someone with your profile this can come off “independent” and I don’t mean in a good way. Short girls can wear 5 inch heels. Tall girls can’t. You need this list 25 point list more than you realize.

    I would consider myself to be “independent”. I don’t know what you mean with the “heels” reference. Would you care to explain that to me? Perhaps there is something useful there.

    I’m also curious as to why you think I need this 25 point list more than I supposedly realize. This should be entertaining.

  • Ian

    I guess we’re just speaking on different wavelengths or something. These sorts of men are obviously cads and should be avoided at all costs. But what if you meet a nice guy that you like but he’s already in a relationship (albeit to a very mean-sprited girlfriend)? By all means steal him.

    I’d even extend this to “good relationships”, where the partner is blameless, but the two have conflicting relationship goals. I’ve left women, in good relationships, for someone who I thought would be a better mother, or closer to marriage, or less career-orientated.

    Granted, I’m from Mars, but I’ve always thought that people, especially women, over-emphasized relationships. In a relationship, there’s always an underlying understanding that the relationship may end; the monogamy is transitory, until it’s promoted by engagement.

    It’s less Disney to leave just for someone hotter, newer, or higher-SMV, but, trades are permissible in the (dating) relationship rule book. No problem with poaching, personally.

  • evilalpha

    @Bastiat Blogger

    Yes, Evilalpha, I think the poaching behavior is rather rampant because so many women are chasing the same basic checklist

    Yup. Hypergamy.

    because some women will never, ever embrace the sex goddess thing, let alone the other items on the list.

    Women aren’t feminine because they don’t have to be. It’s the same reason I don’t court. College was party hookups. Post college is “lets have some drinks” I don’t dinner date until after lots of regular sex. It’s cost minimization more than ego.

    And you are right about sabotage. There is nothing a feminist hates more than a non feminist/feminine pretty girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women aren’t feminine because they don’t have to be.

      Which is why I’m betting that acting feminine will be a huge competitive advantage.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    An active secondary market for poachers might also make the entire SMP more efficient and liquid: those who adopted a strategy of luring mates in under false pretenses (with plans to put forth far less effort later, when the target had been secured) would have to think twice about trying the bait-and-switch.

  • evilalpha

    @Sassy

    I would consider myself to be “independent”.

    Of course you do, but you should start viewing yourself as “not needy”… that’s way more guy friendly i.e. feminine.

    I don’t know what you mean with the “heels” reference. Would you care to explain that to me? Perhaps there is something useful there.

    Sure.

    The average guy is 5″9ish. If a girl is around that height puts on heels she’s 6 feet tall, which immediately fucks up her approachability (wether she knows it or not) Short girls can rock platforms without the same adverse effect.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    INTJ, without meeting the girlfriend and seeing how she treats him private, how does a new girl know for sure that the guy is being mistreated? If he’s lying to her girlfriend by hiding a new budding romance, couldn’t he also lie to the new girl? Too much potential for drama and crud to hit the fan. So I agree with Sassy about not poaching taken men.

    Plus, people are often talking about how there are lots of single good guys, so why encourage girls to “steal” boyfriends?

    Obviously, the general strategy should be to meet any one of all those single good guys. But, sometimes people develop crushes on their friends, who may already be in a relationship.

    My advice to girls: if you know your crush is in a relationship with a girl who doesn’t appreciate him, by all means use the above strategies to “steal” him. :)

  • Manmeet Kaur

    “because some women will never, ever embrace the sex goddess thing, let alone the other items on the list.

    Women aren’t feminine because they don’t have to be. It’s the same reason I don’t court. College was party hookups. Post college is “lets have some drinks” I don’t dinner date until after lots of regular sex. It’s cost minimization more than ego.

    And you are right about sabotage. There is nothing a feminist hates more than a non feminist/feminine pretty girl.”

    Whoa! Whoa there! You’re suggesting a woman pull out this full arsenal for a man who won’t even dinner date her until after lots of regular sex?!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Whoa! Whoa there! You’re suggesting a woman pull out this full arsenal for a man who won’t even dinner date her until after lots of regular sex?!

      Touche. Personally, I don’t see how a guy can show genuine and consistent interest if he doesn’t believe in going on dates before sex. That’s a player move, and he should get caught in the filter (if she’s using one).

  • pvw

    Mike M. August 10, 2012 at 1:11 pm
    Susan, a woman who uses this entire battery won’t get boyfriend, she’ll have a husband. Wrapped around her little finger.

    My reply:

    Yes, indeed, astute INTJ processing skills to listen to Mr. PVW very carefully and realize just where he fell short in his earlier relationships of using str strategies to get a ltr, which then helped me how to work it to get the ltr, ie., using girl game as per Susan’s list, we got married two years later, and the girl game to keep a husband happy is still going strong!

  • pvw

    Oops…

    typo:
    “helped me work it” should read

    “helped me figure out how to work it”

  • Ion

    INTJ

    “thanks to the feminist media thinks that such a relationship is normal. He’s used to them acting mean, and he’s seen the feminist media glorifying such behavior”

    I was at a wedding three weeks ago, a lot of 25-30 yr old couples were there (some of them worked together at an organization almost identical to nypirg). The men from this group were all very courteous and got their girlfriends plates, and drinks, etc., and I remember at one point, it was time for men to grab the brides garterbelt. When the D.J.s called for all the single men, these men looked around nervously at each other and their girlfriends for approval. One of the girls –very feminist, mousy short hair, loud mouth, cat-eye glasses, etc., the whole nine, said to her boyfriend “you guys can go”, and the other girls said “yeah, go. Go! You’re technically still single!”. She then turned to the other girls and said “yeah we got them trained!” And all the other girls laughed like it was a badge of honor. It was subtle I guess, but what you said made me think of this experience.

    “But I guess this goes back to how so many women feel entitled to having men chase them. You’re just unwilling to find a guy you like and make him start liking you in return”

    There’s definitely some confusion about who should do what on both sides, and what “interest” looks like. I.e. girls being told if a guy REALLY likes us, he’d put in the effort to chase you, and you deserve a man who “reallly” likes you, so yea, I guess that is entitlement. Girls generally learn that it makes sense to hold out for an alpha who makes an effort, and is “interested enough to risk rejection”, than settle for a lukewarm guy they had to make an effort for.

  • Sassy6519

    @ evilalpha

    Of course you do, but you should start viewing yourself as “not needy”… that’s way more guy friendly i.e. feminine.

    Sure.

    The average guy is 5″9ish. If a girl is around that height puts on heels she’s 6 feet tall, which immediately fucks up her approachability (wether she knows it or not) Short girls can rock platforms without the same adverse effect.

    Ah, gotcha.

    I assume that I’m the tall girl, in this scenario. Are you saying that I shouldn’t act so “independent”, or metaphorically don 5 inch heels with my attitude, because it’s off-putting and makes me unapproachable/intimidating to men?

    If so, I agree with that. I’ve been trying to work on my way of thinking, and I’ve also been working on my ability to express more emotionally. I feel like I keep hitting a brick wall though because my brain naturally works that way (curse you ENTP profile!).

    If I interpreted the metaphor the way it should have been, I’ll admit that I like it.

    *Stores metaphor in memory bank for future reference*

  • INTJ

    @ pvw

    Yes, indeed, astute INTJ processing skills to listen to Mr. PVW very carefully and realize just where he fell short in his earlier relationships of using str strategies to get a ltr, which then helped me how to work it to get the ltr, ie., using girl game as per Susan’s list, we got married two years later, and the girl game to keep a husband happy is still going strong!

    That’s the good thing about us INTJs. We can adapt our strategies to achieve success.

  • evilalpha

    @Bastiat Poaching is about efficiency at the individual level. One can get massive leverage (low investment, awesome returns) when done smartly A woman who poaches is picking a target that is prescreened. Take Schwarzenegger’s housekeeper. Even if she doesn’t steal Awwwnold away. She still has the son of an alpha and is guaranteed resources life.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Fast forward an hour and you see them making out right before he dumps his bitchy girlfriend for his new, true love.

    Sometimes right before the wedding!…I’m mostly thinking. Who pays for the catering and the venue? You cannot get a reimburse on a wedding that already started. Oh my will people eat the food?. I mean the ditcher side might but the other side would? That would be such a waste…I actually don’t watch rom com anymore too distracting.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yes, indeed, astute INTJ processing skills to listen to Mr. PVW very carefully and realize just where he fell short in his earlier relationships of using str strategies to get a ltr, which then helped me how to work it to get the ltr, ie., using girl game as per Susan’s list, we got married two years later, and the girl game to keep a husband happy is still going strong!

    I encouraged my husband to talk to me about his former girlfriends and even though he never badmouthed them (white flag) I could read between the line what made their relationships fail and make sure I didn’t do, like you marriage in less than two years. Is actually not that hard with a good guy.
    Of course that is another advice against dating a manwhore I mean hubby didn’t had tons of exes just enough for me to figure him out. Imagine trying to do the same with a guy that has a massive number of women under his belt? Impossible and not worth it, YMMV.

  • evilalpha

    I assume that I’m the tall girl, in this scenario. Are you saying that I shouldn’t act so “independent”, or metaphorically don 5 inch heels with my attitude, because it’s off-putting and makes me unapproachable/intimidating to men?

    Yes you are the tall girl in this scenario. So lose the heels!

    And indeed you have a lot of habits that are self sabotaging. Can you cook? If not learn too. This is something that is universally viewed by men as nurturing/feminine.

    And maybe rather than Sassy6519 you can be NiceToMeetYou6519

    Just a few thoughts.

  • pvw

    Anacaona:

    I encouraged my husband to talk to me about his former girlfriends and even though he never badmouthed them (white flag) I could read between the line what made their relationships fail and make sure I didn’t do,

    My reply:

    I remember asking him open-ended, nonjudgmental questions, listening carefully and processing. I realized he was serious about doing something totally different (giving up the str strategy as a means of getting a ltr) by taking a long term break from dating altogether, so that he could figure out what he was looking for. I just made sure he foung it in me, by being what I was raised to be, a very high MMV girlfriend!

  • Ion

    “The average guy is 5″9ish. If a girl is around that height puts on heels she’s 6 feet tall, which immediately fucks up her approachability (wether she knows it or not) Short girls can rock platforms without the same adverse effect.”

    This! yes! Lol….also short girls can get away with being aggressive with men twice their height, but that ditzy over the top behavior doesn’t work for us tall girls. Nor does wearing pink or babydoll dresses really lol.

    I’m 6′ tall and wear flats. Men stare all the time. Whenever I am on the street around Midtown, Manhattan, the men in business suits always wink or smile, or turn and stare.

    Being tall definitely makes you visible and that’s a privilege, but it also can make you unapproachable and scary to the average -5’8 guy, so you have less options of available men to chose from. I do see more 5’9 guys doing the nod of approval thing lol. I guess since the 5’3 girls are chasing the 6′+ crowd, they figure why the hell not?

  • Sassy6519

    @ evilalpha

    Yes you are the tall girl in this scenario. So lose the heels!

    And indeed you have a lot of habits that are self sabotaging. Can you cook? If not learn too. This is something that is universally viewed by men as nurturing/feminine.

    And maybe rather than Sassy6519 you can be NiceToMeetYou6519

    Just a few thoughts.

    Thanks for talking with me. You have some very valid points.

    I can cook, and I actually really like cooking for a man whenever I’m in a relationship. A lot of the men haven’t been very appreciative of the gesture, however, so I typically wait awhile now before cooking for anyone. I know I definitely need to work on my outlook and attitude. My “bitch shield” is perpetually up, and I do have a hard time letting it down.

    @ Susan Walsh

    I know that you probably have a lot of suggestions for posts already, but I have one to add. I believe that you could write a really good post about the “bitch shield”. You could write about how women can work to take it down, little by little, and offer tips. I assume that a fair amount of men have had experience with them too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know that you probably have a lot of suggestions for posts already, but I have one to add. I believe that you could write a really good post about the “bitch shield”. You could write about how women can work to take it down, little by little, and offer tips. I assume that a fair amount of men have had experience with them too.

      That’s a great idea, thanks Sassy!

  • Manmeet Kaur

    Sassy, I think what evilalpha means is that black women already have a reputation for being independent and bold so you don’t need to flaunt it by wearing a 5 inch heel attitude.

  • evilalpha

    Imagine trying to do the same with a guy that has a massive number of women under his belt? Impossible and not worth it, YMMV

    Not really. Don’t project slut onto men. It’s not accurate. Manwhores are simply normal guys who can get chicks. You might wanna read the Sex Goddess portion over again. Sex and a sammich is really all there is to it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t project slut onto men. It’s not accurate. Manwhores are simply normal guys who can get chicks.

      There are definitely correlations between a tendency toward short-term mating and certain personality traits, including the Dark Triad. Not all attractive men are equally predisposed to ONSs, and very few are interested in racking up extremely high numbers, e.g. 100+. It’s a red flag for sure, from a female POV.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Manmeet Kaur

    Sassy, I think what evilalpha means is that black women already have a reputation for being independent and bold so you don’t need to flaunt it by wearing a 5 inch heel attitude.

    I gathered that.

  • INTJ

    @ Ion

    I was at a wedding three weeks ago, a lot of 25-30 yr old couples were there (some of them worked together at an organization almost identical to nypirg). The men from this group were all very courteous and got their girlfriends plates, and drinks, etc., and I remember at one point, it was time for men to grab the brides garterbelt. When the D.J.s called for all the single men, these men looked around nervously at each other and their girlfriends for approval. One of the girls –very feminist, mousy short hair, loud mouth, cat-eye glasses, etc., the whole nine, said to her boyfriend “you guys can go”, and the other girls said “yeah, go. Go! You’re technically still single!”. She then turned to the other girls and said “yeah we got them trained!” And all the other girls laughed like it was a badge of honor. It was subtle I guess, but what you said made me think of this experience.

    Yes that is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about (though of course this particular example is not as bad as some of the really bad things that happen)! This kind of behavior is normalized by feminism. Thus, if you meet some guy who has a girlfriend that treats him very badly and you like him, nothing wrong with “stealing” him.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    “I can cook, and I actually really like cooking for a man whenever I’m in a relationship. A lot of the men haven’t been very appreciative of the gesture, however, so I typically wait awhile now before cooking for anyone. ”

    Some men come from cultures or family backgrounds that automatically assume women will cook for men and they are likely not to say thank you or show appreciation for it. Men who come from cultures or family backgrounds where the cooking does not automatically go to the women tend to be more appreciative. Focus there.

  • INTJ

    @ evilalpha

    Not really. Don’t project slut onto men. It’s not accurate. Manwhores are simply normal guys who can get chicks. You might wanna read the Sex Goddess portion over again. Sex and a sammich is really all there is to it.

    Bullshit. Cooper and I are counter-examples.

  • Abbot

    “One of the girls –very feminist, mousy short hair, loud mouth, cat-eye glasses, etc., the whole nine, said to her boyfriend “you guys can go”, and the other girls said “yeah, go. Go!”

    Imagine them saying that within the past ten years to a slew of other guys who hit it and knew better and kept on going…

    Yep yep, ya got some real bargains out there

  • INTJ

    I know that you probably have a lot of suggestions for posts already, but I have one to add. I believe that you could write a really good post about the “bitch shield”. You could write about how women can work to take it down, little by little, and offer tips. I assume that a fair amount of men have had experience with them too.

    This would be very useful. Needing advice for lowering the bitch shield for women is like the advice us men seek to get over approach anxiety.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    “Sex and a sammich is really all there is to it.”

    Post commitment of course. Its a bad move for a woman to offer sex goddess skills and food to men she is merely dating or hooking up with.

  • pvw

    Stoop? If no girl has tried to “poach” your man, then you don’t have a man of high value. Just sayin’

    My reply:

    Or at least giving you the side eye because they wish they were the one on his arm!

  • evilalpha

    Bullshit. Cooper and I are counter-examples.

    You wanna articulate so this doesn’t seem so much like Tourettes? What makes the manwhores Cooper and INTJ different than all the other manwhores who are like me.

  • evilalpha

    Post commitment of course. Its a bad move for a woman to offer sex goddess skills and food to men she is merely dating or hooking up with

    You are being redundant. Look at the original comment to which I responded.

  • Ramble

    I was at a wedding three weeks ago, a lot of 25-30 yr old couples were there (some of them worked together at an organization almost identical to nypirg). The men from this group were all very courteous and got their girlfriends plates, and drinks, etc., and I remember at one point, it was time for men to grab the brides garterbelt. When the D.J.s called for all the single men, these men looked around nervously at each other and their girlfriends for approval. One of the girls –very feminist, mousy short hair, loud mouth, cat-eye glasses, etc., the whole nine, said to her boyfriend “you guys can go”, and the other girls said “yeah, go. Go! You’re technically still single!”. She then turned to the other girls and said “yeah we got them trained!” And all the other girls laughed like it was a badge of honor. It was subtle I guess, but what you said made me think of this experience.

    I have seen variations on this more than a few times.

  • evilalpha

    I know that you probably have a lot of suggestions for posts already, but I have one to add. I believe that you could write a really good post about the “bitch shield”. You could write about how women can work to take it down, little by little, and offer tips. I assume that a fair amount of men have had experience with them too.

    Good idea. I even think the topic should be moved to the front of the line… it’s such a fundamental dating skill for women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      Welcome, you’ve certainly hit the ground running and made a big splash in a short time. (sorry for the mixed metaphor)

  • Manmeet Kaur

    What is meant by “unless other women are eyeing your man he’s not worth having”?

    Who cares? The only time a man will get eyed by unknown women in public is if his looks make him stand out in a crowd. That doesn’t mean he’s a quality man of character, it just means he’s a looker (who could be a hooker, heh).

    I’ve dated men who women did not eye, they were not all that great looking, but they had good character and were compatible with me. That’s all that matters.

  • Mike C

    I have no problem leaving the relationship. I tend to have the “You can be replaced” attitude, when it comes to dating men.

    Sassy,

    In an earlier comment somewhere, you asked about coming across I think it was more feminine more warm more emotional, etc. That is at 180 degrees odds with the sentiment “You can be replaced”. Make no mistake. I’m sure you convey this, and that the men quite handily pick up on it. I”m not quite sure how to articulate this….Jason had some comments that are kinda connected, but I want to be with a woman who “needs” me, not one who on some level has a “take it or leave it” attitude.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    ‎” I”m not quite sure how to articulate this….Jason had some comments that are kinda connected, but I want to be with a woman who “needs” me, not one who on some level has a “take it or leave it” attitude.”

    “need” does not happen until after the couple have mutually fallen in love.

    “Let somebody prove friendship which time and space cannot jolt, and then accept the love. Don’t accept the love first and then find the friendship; it will never come. You have lost the game.”
    ~Yogi Bhajan, July 11, 1984

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Manmeet Kaur = Plain Jane?

  • Jackie

    @Sassy, Hope
    “I think women would have a better chance at finding love by only going after emotionally available men.”
    ===
    I agree as well!

    This list is like a powerful tool, which could backfire heartbreakingly in the wrong situation.

    For me, I would look for proof of good character as well. It would be tragic for anyone to emotionally invest their heart and soul in someone who is mean, selfish or deceptive. Gives me the shivers even to think about it! :(

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Sassy,

    In an earlier comment somewhere, you asked about coming across I think it was more feminine more warm more emotional, etc. That is at 180 degrees odds with the sentiment “You can be replaced”. Make no mistake. I’m sure you convey this, and that the men quite handily pick up on it. I”m not quite sure how to articulate this….Jason had some comments that are kinda connected, but I want to be with a woman who “needs” me, not one who on some level has a “take it or leave it” attitude.

    Yeah, I’m trying to work on that. I’m appreciating the advice that is being given as well. This seems to be my biggest hurdle, when it comes to dating.

    I just don’t know how to foster the “I need a man” attitude when I sincerely don’t have it. I know that men generally like to be “needed” by a woman, but I’m not sure if I can ever offer that. What if it’s something that I’m just not capable of giving?

    The “James Franco” lookalike that I went out with a few times brought this to my attention. During one of our dates, he told me that he had a hard time figuring out what I was thinking, and that I didn’t act like any woman he had ever met. He said that other women were emotional, and that my lack of emotion freaked him out. I asked him if he could give me examples of what could be done on my end to help foster that, and he said that it was hard for him to put into words. He also told me that he shouldn’t have to tell me what to do to foster an emotional bond with him. He said I should know how to do that on my own.

    Ever since that series of dates, I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out what to do. I don’t know how to give men what they want emotionally. That has become very clear to me.

    I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do now, to be honest. If emotionally bonding/escalating with men doesn’t come naturally to me, where and how can I learn it? That’s probably why I do read Susan’s blog as if it were the bible.

    The looks, support, and sex part I can do. I’m failing emotional escalation, however.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I’ve been thinking about how you can emotionally escalate when you aren’t very emotional. I think it’s key that the woman assumes some risk in an effort to move the relationship forward. She “goes all in” before he does, essentially, wrt feelings. I would say you need to find a way to identify where the risk is for you, and to take it. If you really don’t care about anyone, and feel that every guy can be replaced, then perhaps you are immune to risk, in which case, how could you even fall in love? Figure out what scares you, then do it.

  • evilalpha

    The only time a man will get eyed by unknown women in public is if his looks make him stand out in a crowd.

    Actually it’s more likely that a man will get eyed if his WOMAN’S looks make him stand out in a crowd.

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    ” Many guys are stuck in abusive relationships with girls who provide few of the above 25 items. They normally have too little self-esteem to walk away and end the relationship, but if they’re presented with a much better alternative (i.e. someone who does demonstrate the things Susan listed) then there’s a strong chance they’ll take it.”
    ========
    Interesting viewpoint!

    I strongly dislike underhanded means, and boyfriend/girlfriend stealing is way up there! Personally, I wouldn’t want to be with someone I had to “steal,” as it would cause a massive loss of self-respect.

    Plus I don’t think I’d want the kind of guy who could be “stolen”– since I would probably get the “favor” paid back to me, with interest! I’d feel pretty eggshell-y, and wonder who I could really trust.

    On abusive relationships: Both male and female, it’s not as easy as “just leave” sometimes. Abusers (of EITHER gender) condition their victim, obliterate their self-esteem and will manipulate the hell out of their bf/gf to keep them there.

    Telling an abused person, Just leave! shows a lack of understanding. Most likely, it will not help the abused person, it will only make them feel like crap for not having the strength to leave. The abused wore it down, that’s why!

    If a guy is being abused by his girlfriend, cut him slack. He is going to need to work out whatever issues are being played out with his abuser before he is ready for a healthy relationship, in my observance.

  • evilalpha

    I just don’t know how to foster the “I need a man” attitude when I sincerely don’t have it. I know that men generally like to be “needed” by a woman, but I’m not sure if I can ever offer that. What if it’s something that I’m just not capable of giving?

    How about you just get rid of the “I don’t need a man attitude” before you worry about acquiring a “I need a man” attitude. Baby steps….

  • Jackie

    @Sassy, Ramble
    ““No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”.
    ====
    This is one of those slogans that sounds simple in theory but is not at all easy, in my experience. Reality is more complex than that

    I was just talking with my sister about a situation where some girls did something to make me feel very very inferior.

    It’s hard to just brush off what they did– people says “sticks and stones break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” This is not true. Words, actions and situations DO hurt sometimes.

    What helps me is getting a more objective viewpoint: Does this person have an agenda? What do they get out of making me feel bad? Are they threatened, and if so, why?

  • evilalpha

    @Ion
    I’m 6′ tall and wear flats. Men stare all the time. Whenever I am on the street around Midtown, Manhattan, the men in business suits always wink or smile, or turn and stare.

    Quick question. Are most of the guys you date taller or shorter than you?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Not really. Don’t project slut onto men. It’s not accurate. Manwhores are simply normal guys who can get chicks. You might wanna read the Sex Goddess portion over again. Sex and a sammich is really all there is to it.

    All mansluts that I had know had ended up cheating, leaving, killing, beating women so not I’m not projecting a man with a high number should be avoided at all costs by women that want to be wives and mothers.

  • Sai

    I have a few questions here…
    #1 -Ramble
    I believe you, but why would a guy be with someone he didn’t even find attractive?
    (If you’re not attractive… WTF do you do? I already spoke to a surgeon and he said he couldn’t do anything…)

    #8 -Susan
    How soon is too soon to bring someone to your place or go to his place to cook? I know that sounds paranoid, but I wouldn’t feel ready to do that for quite a while.
    That doesn’t mean I won’t cook for my future special person. I will, because I love food. :)

    #29 -Susan
    You might want to send me to hell for this one… How does a woman get her own needs met by doing stuff for others? I had that “serve others” beaten into me since I was tiny, and I did community service and still do, but all it ever feels like is work. Necessary work, but I get nothing from it. (I sort of WOULD like to be treated like a princess because I’m curious about how it would feel, but I know that’s unreasonable so I don’t ask for it.)

    #74 -Sassy
    Holy crap, you’re just like… No, not JUST like me because I’m INTJ.  You know Data from Star Trek? Well, I’m a few steps behind him. I won’t nag or criticize, if I’m fed up with someone I’ll just leave and maybe be a BIT rude if treated too badly. But I have trouble not being seen as cold. It’s like there’s a hole somewhere and I don’t know how to patch it.

    #83 -Richard Aubrey
    Red Army in East Germany?
    Civil War reenactments?
    Coin collecting?

    Do you have a nephew?
    I’m not even being sarcastic, I recently found out how the Germans made flamethrowers during Stalingrad and have nobody around here to share that with. Looking to get a third Morgan silver dollar in the mail soon…
    (Maybe this is part of why I’m alone. DON’T COUNT DAYS, COUNT GERMANS)

    #167 -Ramble
    I love you for this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sai

      How soon is too soon to bring someone to your place or go to his place to cook? I know that sounds paranoid, but I wouldn’t feel ready to do that for quite a while.

      I think date 3 or 4 is perfect, especially if he’s been paying and you would like to reciprocate. Cook for him before a month is up.

      How does a woman get her own needs met by doing stuff for others?

      By making him feel special and like a god. You will engender loyalty and affection in him, and he will treat you generously in return. It’s the Principle of Most Interest.

  • Jackie

    @evil a.
    “Short girls can wear 5 inch heels. Tall girls can’t. ”
    :cry:

    *weeps*
    *pitches high heels, gets out kitten heels*

  • Sassy6519

    @ Jackie

    I was the person to complain about individuals who don’t leave bad relationships. Understand that I wasn’t talking about abusive relationships. I was talking about people who complain about their relationships for relatively simple and stupid reasons. Examples that come to mind are the following:

    “Oh man, Susie is such a nag. She’s always complaining about things, and it’s getting on my nerves. I don’t know why I put up with it”

    “Brian went to hang out with his friends again last night. I keep telling him that I miss spending time with him, but he won’t listen to me. Oh Martha, What should I do?!!!”

    If the relationships are as “bad” as they make them out to be, I don’t understand why they don’t leave. Complaining to me about it nonstop won’t solve anything. They could end their own miseries by pulling the plug on their “sucky” relationships, which are typically well past their expiration dates anyway.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    “He also told me that he shouldn’t have to tell me what to do to foster an emotional bond with him. He said I should know how to do that on my own.”

    He wants a mind reader.

    “Telling an abused person, Just leave! shows a lack of understanding. Most likely, it will not help the abused person, it will only make them feel like crap for not having the strength to leave. The abused wore it down, that’s why!

    If a guy is being abused by his girlfriend, cut him slack. He is going to need to work out whatever issues are being played out with his abuser before he is ready for a healthy relationship, in my observance.”

    They’re attracted to bad girls. They can’t be fixed by good girls. They will need to undergo some sort of therapy like CBT and get over their dysfunction before they can form a functional pair bond.

  • Sassy6519

    @ evilalpha

    How about you just get rid of the “I don’t need a man attitude” before you worry about acquiring a “I need a man” attitude. Baby steps….

    My question is how do I go about getting rid of that attitude? What do I do?

    I feel like a “beta” male being told to be more “alpha”. Without specific tips and tools to implement, I’m at a loss here.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I just made sure he foung it in me, by being what I was raised to be, a very high MMV girlfriend!

    This is probably a lot harder than upping your SMV. Inner work is a bitch.

    This list is like a powerful tool, which could backfire heartbreakingly in the wrong situation.

    I think this is also a filter a guy that gets freaks out by emotionally escalation was not ready or not really into you, so it also works that way.

    I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do now, to be honest. If emotionally bonding/escalating with men doesn’t come naturally to me, where and how can I learn it? That’s probably why I do read Susan’s blog as if it were the bible.

    Had you considered some therapy? I have had some of my friends that developed a negative association of “needing a man” with “letting that man abuse/hurt me” I see to recall that you saw your female relatives putting up with a lot of crap in order to keep an specific man around. I wouldn’t be surprised if this and not your brain is part of the reason you need to have a “safe” approach to relationships because deep down you don’t want to end up like them, just a though.

    That’s a good suggestion re epigenetics, I’ve been interested in learning more about that for a while. I wonder how twin studies fit into this – or are twins going to be identical due to identical exposure?

    I’m starting to study it myself, haven’t gotten into Twins studies yet. I wouldn’t be surprised though that the body would maximize certain choices by having the twins pick different strategies. I have a friend with twin sisters one of them is a slut pretty much since she was 14 the other one became a Mormon and married a virgin at 23. Maybe the body decided to make them opposite to make sure the genes got passed on no matter what, dunno just spec, YMMV.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    MK: ” The only time a man will get eyed by unknown women in public is if his looks make him stand out in a crowd.”

    EA: “Actually it’s more likely that a man will get eyed if his WOMAN’S looks make him stand out in a crowd.”

    All that does is go straight to my head. Does he know how lucky he is to be seen with me?

  • Jackie

    @Sassy
    “Bitching and moaning about a bad relationship, despite one’s power and right to end your misery by ending the relationship, is pathetic. End it. Move on. By staying in the bad relationship, one is basically allowing the bad behavior to continue. As I said earlier, it’s a gender neutral issue for me. Men and women are both guilty of this, and I have little patience for anyone who does it.

    Life is too short to stay in a shitty relationship, and my life is too short to listen to people bitching about their shitty relationships. Either fix the problems, get out of the relationship, or stop complaining to me about it.”
    =====
    Sassy,

    I was just thinking about you the other day and wishing I had your level of confidence. ;) I had a thought on your situation. (You had mentioned earlier about men finding you unfeeling, I think.)

    This is only my viewpoint, and could be completely wrong. But what if…. you tried to re-write the above– for example– from a place of empathy and softness?

    Example:”It must be really rough to feel like you have no options besides complaining” instead of calling it pathetic.

    Are there place in your own life where you have experienced this “softness” from others? Any examples of this from people you admire, to cultivate it in yourself?

    When I have been stressed, overworked (ESP. in school!) and not enough sleep, the softness disappears from me. For me, when I have a “brittle” exterior it is very repellent to others — and I don’t blame them!

    It seems to me– again, could be COMPLETELY wrong!– that you are very pushed and driven to succeed. Where do you let yourself be vulnerable, to give that part of you a rest and a chance to recover?

    Again, if I am off base with any of this, I apologize. These were just my thoughts of the moment. :)

  • Cooper

    Hmm, I knew my ears were burning.

  • Jackie

    @Sassy (230)

    Ohhh, I see what you’re saying! Thanks for the explanation! :)

    I think those kind of people kvetch and moan about EVERYTHING. It’s like a default switch. In my experience, if they weren’t complaining about their BF/GF, it would just be something else.

    I try to avoid those people, if I can. Many of them are deeply invested in their worldview and aren’t particularly interested in changing! ;)

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, the “beta” mindset is exactly right on for girl game.

    Think of the nicest, sweetest, kindest beta guy who has the world’s worst case of oneitis. Now make that a cute, pretty young girl with flowing long hair, wearing a feminine sundress, who smiles warmly at you. Her eyes light up when she sees you and sadden when you leave, because she loves to be near you and is a little bit clingy. She writes your name in her notebook with doodle hearts next to it, and sends you love notes.

    It is all about stirring the “soft spot” in a guy’s heart. Being feminine, vulnerable, and a little needy does that.

    Another thing to do is observe animal companions. If he’s a cat person, imitate a kitty. If he’s a dog person, imitate a puppy. For example, she nuzzles into your chest and purrs like a kitten, and gracefully touches your face with her cupped hands. She sits on your lap like a lap kitty and asks to be petted. Or she pounces on you with an energetic hug and kiss, and playfully gives you a lick on the cheek. It’s totally silly but adorable. If a guy doesn’t get his heart melted by animals, something is wrong!

    PS: Never get with a guy who enjoys torturing animals.

  • Manmeet Kaur

    Sassy don’t worry. If and when you fall in love, you will feel the appropriate need for him.

  • evilalpha

    Touche. Personally, I don’t see how a guy can show genuine and consistent interest if he doesn’t believe in going on dates before sex. That’s a player move, and he should get caught in the filter (if she’s using one).

    Not so fast with the back slapping. Advice on how to be feminine is distinct from the details of the application (as in whom, when and to what degree to use the wiles)

    Convenient misread by Manmeet.

  • evilalpha

    Which is why I’m betting that acting feminine will be a huge competitive advantage.

    Then bet alot, because you’ll win big!

  • INTJ

    @ evilalpha

    You wanna articulate so this doesn’t seem so much like Tourettes? What makes the manwhores Cooper and INTJ different than all the other manwhores who are like me.

    I was complaining about your implication that normal guys who can get chicks will act like manwhores.

  • Jackie

    @Zach (140)

    Zach, as much as I disagree with you on nearly everything ;) — please don’t feel guilty about breaking up with someone who is not right for you.

    In my opinion, it would be far worse to continue the relationship when deep down you know it’s just not the right match. Or– getting married, just because that was the “next step.”

    Both people are being done a solid, even if it doesn’t feel that way: She now has the chance to find someone who will love her, utterly and completely, without reservations. That is far superior to being with someone who is always going to feel she is lacking.

    Good luck and best wishes–

  • Aoefe

    That’s great girl game advice Hope! The only thing I would add is draping scarves over your lamp shades to give an allure of mysteriousness. Men love that.

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    (If you’re not attractive… WTF do you do? I already spoke to a surgeon and he said he couldn’t do anything…)

    If you have a healthy body fat percentage, then you’re already at least average in the looks department. If you’re overweight, eat less than 2000 calories a day, and make sure these foods are unprocessed foods, because with a low intake you’ll need the nutrition. If you’re anorexic because of dieting, stop dieting and eat some donuts.

  • evilalpha

    Welcome, you’ve certainly hit the ground running and made a big splash in a short time

    Thank you.

  • Mike C

    I just don’t know how to foster the “I need a man” attitude when I sincerely don’t have it. I know that men generally like to be “needed” by a woman, but I’m not sure if I can ever offer that. What if it’s something that I’m just not capable of giving?

    The “James Franco” lookalike that I went out with a few times brought this to my attention. During one of our dates, he told me that he had a hard time figuring out what I was thinking, and that I didn’t act like any woman he had ever met. He said that other women were emotional, and that my lack of emotion freaked him out. I asked him if he could give me examples of what could be done on my end to help foster that, ***and he said that it was hard for him to put into words. He also told me that he shouldn’t have to tell me what to do to foster an emotional bond with him. He said I should know how to do that on my own.***

    Ever since that series of dates, I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out what to do. I don’t know how to give men what they want emotionally. That has become very clear to me.

    Ironically, the part I bolded is really the equivalent of when men are told by women to simply be “more confident” or “more attractive” and that they shouldn’t need guidance from the woman on how to do that and be able to do it on their own without detailed examples. Consider for a moment what your reaction would be if we were on a date, and I asked you for examples to appear more confident to you?

    To your question in the first paragraph, I really don’t know. There is a woman close to me, pretty, youthful looking, intelligent, on paper she looks great but I suspect she struggles with some of the same things that you do. I guess I could give you the classic male advice which is “fake it until you make it” and at least potentially internalize some things, but I can’t make you want that to happen. You have to want that for yourself. I suspect you have a very strong self-image (which is a good thing) but that you have it linked with certain attributes such as your “independence”. I think you have to think long and hard about who Sassy is, and what parts of her can be destroyed and remade, and if you even want to do that. You may decide it isn’t worth it.

    The parallel is sort of the extreme beta AFC type. Some guys self-image and ego investment is very tied to that. They simply cannot kill off some of the extreme beta behaviors without destroying who they think they are. A few male commenters come to mind. They are so heavily ego-invested in their current self-image that they simply cannot let it go to perhaps achieve more successful outcomes. It is my belief that both personal beliefs and behavior/personality traits are malleable just like the physical body is malleable.

    One thing with you, and I could be in left field, but I wonder if sometimes you are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. You’ve mentioned I think not wanting kids so you don’t need a committed partner to raise kids. You are emotionally detached and aloof, and you’ve mentioned your sex drive. Perhaps your natural pairing is more of the emotionally distant alpha type who can meet your …ahem….needs, and doesn’t really care about your emotional investment. I don’t know…..just brainstorming out loud.

    You are clearly highly intelligent, but I think you are still working on building life experience to help better assess things. I think you need to figure out what it is in terms of male sexual/mating relationships that you really want, and then once you’ve decided on that, you have to do what is necessary to achieve that outcome. If you are not willing, then you don’t really want it.

    Good luck on the journey.

  • Mike C

    Manmeet Kaur = Plain Jane?

    That’s the way the smart money is betting.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    Had you considered some therapy? I have had some of my friends that developed a negative association of “needing a man” with “letting that man abuse/hurt me” I see to recall that you saw your female relatives putting up with a lot of crap in order to keep an specific man around. I wouldn’t be surprised if this and not your brain is part of the reason you need to have a “safe” approach to relationships because deep down you don’t want to end up like them, just a though.

    That’s definitely a possibility. I don’t have a lot of positive experiences with men, overall, so I think I do try to protect myself more than anything else.

    I do know that I’m just less emotional overall as well. I rarely cry. I rarely freak out. Even when my mother was recently ill, I never cried. My sister and brother were way more emotional than I was. I guess I just don’t feel certain emotions as frequently or as strongly as other people do.

    @ Jackie

    It seems to me– again, could be COMPLETELY wrong!– that you are very pushed and driven to succeed. Where do you let yourself be vulnerable, to give that part of you a rest and a chance to recover?

    If I am feeling vulnerable, I usually isolate myself. I think through my feelings instead of really feeling my feelings. I’ll occasionally talk to my 2 closest friends as well. I trust them enough to confide in them.

    @ Hope

    Sassy, the “beta” mindset is exactly right on for girl game.

    Think of the nicest, sweetest, kindest beta guy who has the world’s worst case of oneitis. Now make that a cute, pretty young girl with flowing long hair, wearing a feminine sundress, who smiles warmly at you. Her eyes light up when she sees you and sadden when you leave, because she loves to be near you and is a little bit clingy. She writes your name in her notebook with doodle hearts next to it, and sends you love notes.

    It is all about stirring the “soft spot” in a guy’s heart. Being feminine, vulnerable, and a little needy does that.

    I’ll probably get flamed for this, but acting that way seems a bit silly to me. I don’t know how to square that away with who I think I am as a person. To do some of the things you mentioned, I’d really have to put on a great act. Maybe I do need to “fake it until I make it”, in a sense.

    @ Susan Walsh

    I’ve been thinking about how you can emotionally escalate when you aren’t very emotional. I think it’s key that the woman assumes some risk in an effort to move the relationship forward. She “goes all in” before he does, essentially, wrt feelings. I would say you need to find a way to identify where the risk is for you, and to take it. If you really don’t care about anyone, and feel that every guy can be replaced, then perhaps you are immune to risk, in which case, how could you even fall in love? Figure out what scares you, then do it.

    Thanks Susan. There is some serious introspection in my future for sure. I’ve been given a lot to think about and work with on this thread.

  • Jackie

    @Hope
    “Another thing to do is observe animal companions. If he’s a cat person, imitate a kitty.”
    ===
    Hope, this made me smile — I just met my brother’s new kitty “Bandita” (little girl bandit) who could learn from the kitty examples you mentioned!

    Hopefully she will grow out of the hissing, biting and jumping on the dinner table– and soon! ;-)

  • Cooper

    ” A few male commenters come to mind. ”

    Heh.

  • evilalpha

    There are definitely correlations between a tendency toward short-term mating and certain personality traits, including the Dark Triad. Not all attractive men are equally predisposed to ONSs, and very few are interested in racking up extremely high numbers, e.g. 100+. It’s a red flag for sure, from a female POV

    Yes, it should be a flag, but a promiscuous male is nowhere near the equivalent of a promiscuous female. It’s really apples and oranges. The basics of male plumbing, combined with fewer sexual opportunities make a manwhore a much less risky spouse for a skilled wife to have, than does a slut for a skilled husband to have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      The basics of male plumbing, combined with fewer sexual opportunities make a manwhore a much less risky spouse for a skilled wife to have, than does a slut for a skilled husband to have.

      I’m not sure about that. I think that men who have experienced a lot of sexual variety are likely to experience difficulty with monogamy. Not long ago a male reader here was thinking of breaking up with his gf because he couldn’t stop the “greatest hits” tape from playing in his head (his number is 25). There is one study that shows male marital sexual satisfaction goes down 5% for every premarital partner, but it was done at BYU and I don’t really trust it.

      I honestly don’t know about this – the jury’s out as far as I am concerned. My husband’s count of around 20 (I don’t know it for sure, no one kept track in the 80s) has never interfered with his satisfaction in our marriage. I don’t have a good sense of where the tipping point is, but I do believe there is one.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, I can understand the self-image thing. I come off as a very serious, non-playful girl in public, stiff body language, don’t talk too much, and almost as if I lack a sense of humor. But in private with my man, I am like a different person. I have an introvert’s shell that is totally dropped. Maybe try something like that with a new date, not out in public but when alone.

    Aoefe, is that really you? It’s been a while! How are things?

  • evilalpha

    I was complaining about your implication that normal guys who can get chicks will act like manwhores.

    I didn’t make the implication, but I can’t draw a venn diagram for you to see why. Think about it though.

  • Jackie

    @Mike C
    “Manmeet Kaur = Plain Jane?

    That’s the way the smart money is betting.”
    ====
    Well, well, well! Look at what our secret admirer has been up to:
    http://www.fbi.gov/losangeles/press-releases/2012/plain-jane-bandit-sought-for-six-robberies-reward-offered-for-information

    If I were Susan, I’d track down that IP address and get the 10K reward! ;-)

  • INTJ

    @ Abbot

    “women in the 5-7 range are aggressively pursuing casual sex, then both male 5-7s and female 8-10s are displaced, which is what I have previously argued”

    and does coincide with slut-class confirmation from Joel-

    Yup. I was always skeptical of this when I joined HUS, but I’m increasingly buying it.

  • evilalpha

    @Manmeet

    Whoa! Whoa there! You’re suggesting a woman pull out this full arsenal for a man who won’t even dinner date her until after lots of regular sex?

    That’s a self serving interpretation. Most women don’t even have half the arsenal that Susan listed so why would I suggest they pull out the full arsenal? Ladies need to learn the arsenal first. When, where, how and whom to use it on is for a later post.

  • Jackie

    @Sassy

    Hey Sassy, thanks for being amenable to my post. :)

    Ana has a really good point and you are perfectly positioned to get some help either free or very low-cost through school. I know I resisted going at first, but therapy has turned out to be some of the best money I’ve ever spent.

    I look at it as investment in myself: If I can save myself from poor decisions leading to a bad marriage, it is absolutely worth it. Also, I needed to process a lot of life experiences in a safe, affirmative place.

    You can do what I did: Interview a bunch of prospective therapists, tell them what you are there to work on, and see if it’s a good fit. Believe me, they WANT a self-directed and motivated client, in my experience. I still go to work on stuff, as do my sister and brother. Again, just my 0.02. :)

  • INTJ

    @ evilalpha

    I didn’t make the implication, but I can’t draw a venn diagram for you to see why. Think about it though.

    I guess I misinterpreted it when you said “Manwhores are simply normal guys who can get chicks.”? Did you mean that aside from being promiscuous sexually, manwhores are like normal guys in every other way?

  • Manmeet Kaur

    Sassy, listen to Mike. It does sound like you are a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. You don’t want kids so marriage is unnecessary for you. At the same time you see everyone around you in relationships. You don’t have to be in one just because they are. Maybe a series of short term relationships over your life are better for you, or even a long term open one or a long term long distance one or a long term one with an equally emotionally detached man.

    You don’t have to be like everyone else. Find what works for you. If you try to copy others just because that’s the done thing, well you will be unhappy.

  • Ramble

    I was just talking with my sister about a situation where some girls did something to make me feel very very inferior.

    It’s hard to just brush off what they did– people says “sticks and stones break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” This is not true. Words, actions and situations DO hurt sometimes.

    This is exactly what I am talking about.

    Just as it is possible to really hurt someone, regardless of your agenda, it is also possible to make them feel great, even if the receiver of you compliments/generosity/niceness/etc. had no intention of feeling good about themselves (i.e. they were in a bad mood and intent on staying that way, if only for a while).

    This is not to say that things like mantras and affirmations can not be helpful, but it is important to understand what is and isn’t real.

    And, I want to point out that I focused on just one small part of what Sassy said. She was making a larger point and I pounced on that one thing.

  • Ramble

    I love how Ramble has started anticipating rebuttals and then answering them preemptively.

    Haha, I am such a little bitch.

  • Ramble

    I believe you, but why would a guy be with someone he didn’t even find attractive?

    See comment 119.

  • J_bot

    Long time lurker – wanted to express (more) appreciation for this post. I think the most difficult thing is trying to be completely honest with yourself on which of the points you could stand to work on.

    Re being emotionally open/vulnerable:
    I had to work for a while with a therapist (and on my own) to get “in touch” with my emotions and then express them, so I think I’m still trying to work out a balance on #18. Which neuroses/emotions are valid/worth verbalizing, and which are unnecessary? Because my natural inclination is to not express any, I’ve been trying to express them more.

    Any tips on how to balance the emotional vulnerability/escalation with suppressing neuroses?

    Also wanted to add that
    Bastiat Blogger @11 – “Routinely compare him favorably to predatory animals, superheroes, or even action toys like Optimus Prime.” LOVE this and going to work really hard to incorporate it with the guy I’m seeing. :)
    Hope @244 – great specifics on further girl game. Can’t believe I had never thought about the comparison to beta males…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J_bot

      Welcome, I’m so glad you de-lurked!

      Which neuroses/emotions are valid/worth verbalizing, and which are unnecessary?

      A bit of vulnerability is charming – full-blown paranoia is not. Any sort of accusation should be avoided unless you have good reason to suspect wrongdoing. Angling for commitment too early is a turnoff – guys hate “relationship pressure.” Let it happen organically and don’t worry so much about labels, the DTR, etc.

      In the early days, I think it’s important to stay as positive as possible. Any negative energy should be brought to a trusted friend or confidante, who will hopefully talk some sense into you. Of course, this assumes the guy is a good guy. None of this applies if you’re chasing a douchebag.

  • evilalpha

    My question is how do I go about getting rid of that attitude? What do I do?

    Because your self image is “independent”,”strong”,”sassy” “ENTP” it will be easier/quicker for you to approach dating with the mindset of “I have all this to offer” to man X. In other words sell yourself as an awesome person to be around/be with

    Why should a man want or need you? Make a list. Tell us here.

  • Ramble

    Sassy, the “beta” mindset is exactly right on for girl game.

    Think of the nicest, sweetest, kindest beta guy who has the world’s worst case of oneitis. Now make that a cute, pretty young girl with flowing long hair, wearing a feminine sundress, who smiles warmly at you. Her eyes light up when she sees you and sadden when you leave, because she loves to be near you and is a little bit clingy. She writes your name in her notebook with doodle hearts next to it, and sends you love notes.

    It is all about stirring the “soft spot” in a guy’s heart. Being feminine, vulnerable, and a little needy does that.

    Hope, you are crushing it.

  • evilalpha

    @INTJ

    Did you mean that aside from being promiscuous sexually, manwhores are like normal guys in every other way

    Yup, but also that manwhores are not the male equivalent of sluts as the misleading name indicates.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C (#256)

    Thank you for writing back. That entire comment was so thoughtful and well written, not to mention that you bring up some very good points.

    To your question in the first paragraph, I really don’t know. There is a woman close to me, pretty, youthful looking, intelligent, on paper she looks great but I suspect she struggles with some of the same things that you do. I guess I could give you the classic male advice which is “fake it until you make it” and at least potentially internalize some things, but I can’t make you want that to happen. You have to want that for yourself. I suspect you have a very strong self-image (which is a good thing) but that you have it linked with certain attributes such as your “independence”. I think you have to think long and hard about who Sassy is, and what parts of her can be destroyed and remade, and if you even want to do that. You may decide it isn’t worth it.

    I think I do have a strong self-image, and “faking it until I make it” does seem to be the best strategy to use, at this point. I may think some of the suggestions of “femininity” are silly and beneath me, in a sense, but I may actually like doing them once I have experience with them. I may be able to tap into a part of myself that I didn’t know I had or has had very little use.

    I believe that I do look great on paper, but not so much when you get to know me. I’m approached often, and go on a lot of dates, but a good chunk of those dates probably don’t go anywhere because my personality and way of thinking turns men off. I’m glad that I’m aware of it, at least, so now I can focus my energy on nipping this in the bud.

    One thing with you, and I could be in left field, but I wonder if sometimes you are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. You’ve mentioned I think not wanting kids so you don’t need a committed partner to raise kids. You are emotionally detached and aloof, and you’ve mentioned your sex drive. Perhaps your natural pairing is more of the emotionally distant alpha type who can meet your …ahem….needs, and doesn’t really care about your emotional investment. I don’t know…..just brainstorming out loud.

    You are clearly highly intelligent, but I think you are still working on building life experience to help better assess things. I think you need to figure out what it is in terms of male sexual/mating relationships that you really want, and then once you’ve decided on that, you have to do what is necessary to achieve that outcome. If you are not willing, then you don’t really want it.

    I believe that monogamy and marriage are for me, but I’m not 100% sure sometimes. I wonder if I could be happy just engaging in casual sex, but I doubt it. I do want to share my life with someone, but I don’t think I’ll be able to achieve that easily if I continue to treat men the way I do. I’m definitely going to put some of the tips I’ve been given to use. I’m finally starting to understand where my problems stem from with men.

    @ Everyone

    Thank you all for the support and encouragement. I’ve had an epiphany today, and I think I know what I can do to alter how I interact with men. Something finally “clicked” in my mind today, and my “NT” ways are in overdrive. It’s time to implement some major girl game tactics.

    I wonder if this is how men feel when they learn about game and attempt to use it for the first time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I’ve had an epiphany today, and I think I know what I can do to alter how I interact with men. Something finally “clicked” in my mind today, and my “NT” ways are in overdrive.

      I’m on the edge of my seat! What are you thinking?

  • Awake in Alabama

    Zach at 140,

    “Fantastic list. I’ve been feeling guilty lately about breaking up with my ex, not because it was the wrong thing to do, but just because I still feel shitty about hurting her like that. This list just piled on a ton to that guilt, because she checked probably 22-23 of these boxes. The big issue for me was that she never really checked no. 11. That for me is huge, given how many interests I have. It makes me feel even worse that right before we broke up she started to show a bit more interest in my interests. However, I think at that point it was too little, too late.

    The only other comment I would have is that for no 21, to be able to do that you have to kill it on the first 20. A guy with options will not stick around for a girl who’s got 8-12 of those first 20 in the hopes of getting to 21. She’s got to really nail 15+ of those to make him wait for 21.”

    Your gf checked off 23 out of 25 and yet you were unable to stick around even for that! I’m sorry but somebody has to say it. Do you really think you’re going to find a 25/25 out there in today’s jungle? This is what is called too picky. There is no perfect person out there. There’s always a trade off somewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Awake in Alabama

      Welcome to HUS! I’m delighted with the arrival of several new commenters to this post!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Manmeet Kaur = Plain Jane?

    Yep

    That’s definitely a possibility. I don’t have a lot of positive experiences with men, overall, so I think I do try to protect myself more than anything else.

    That certainly doesn’t help.You might need a cleaning of “males are out to get you”. Trying to be friends with women in happy marriages that are vulnerable to their husbands might help, I wouldn’t advice being friends with men given that you are so attractive they probably will end up hitting/falling for you and that would be a mess. You need to fill your database with “good male” examples so your brain helps with you your fears IMO. At least that is what I’m doing with my fear of dogs seeing a huge dog with a baby and not getting eaten by eat helps. I even touched a tiny dog’s head for a second! :D

    I do know that I’m just less emotional overall as well. I rarely cry. I rarely freak out. Even when my mother was recently ill, I never cried. My sister and brother were way more emotional than I was. I guess I just don’t feel certain emotions as frequently or as strongly as other people do.

    I don’t think is related I don’t cry either I’m very good with positive emotions but I trained myself out of the negative ones both with my introvert mother help and and some family interactions. I mean I can cry as long as is not something that affects me personally (like a movie) something personal. Dry eyes. I don’t think is good but I definitely can be in love and vulnerable with the right man so I don’t think is necessarily related, you should try and explore it more, IMO.

  • Ramble

    How soon is too soon to bring someone to your place or go to his place to cook? I know that sounds paranoid, but I wouldn’t feel ready to do that for quite a while.

    Sai, Susan has already responded to you, but, personally, I think you can start this as early as date 0.

    For instance, you think some guy at work is cute and you are not sure how to get him to pursue you.

    You can invite some coworkers over for dinner at your place, say, like 2 female workers and 2 male workers (the numbers are arbitrary) with one of the males being your crush.

    And, for dinner, you make something nice. It can be kinda fancy, comforting, whatever, it almost doesn’t matter. As long as it took some effort and it tastes good.

    And before the dinner party, you can find out some things about the guests: allergies, preferences, diet, etc.

    And, you can do some extra small things just for him. For instance, if each guest said what there favorite was and his was Roast Chicken, and then you make that (“guys, you know, when Joshua said that Roast Chicken was his favorite, it reminded me of how much I love it”). Or, even simpler, have some beer and wine available, but the beer you chose was based on what he likes, and not the others. Again, doesn’t matter. Pick your favorite approach.

    Anyway, what I am getting at, is you could “emotionally escalate” with complete plausible deniability. A girl’s favorite.

    Depending on what girl(s) you invite to this dinner party, you could probably just give them a look or two so that they give you a moment alone to suss him out further.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I LOVE Ramble’s suggestion of including a crush in a group gathering. That’s brilliant.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, there could be a personality component for sure. This stuff came “naturally” to me. Nobody really taught me (my mother was not affectionate). I just started doing it because it felt like the thing to do.

    When I read about game, it was an epiphany for me for me as well, because I was too emotional to follow The Rules (be aloof, hard to get, appear busy). I didn’t understand why guys liked “demonstrative” so much, when the mainstream message was totally opposite.

    As with guy game, girl game needs inner congruence. If you fake it but don’t fake well enough, it can really come off as weird. So start with what you’re comfortable with, and don’t think of it as being “beneath” you, more like you’re trying on a “different outfit.”

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Sassy, there could be a personality component for sure. This stuff came “naturally” to me. Nobody really taught me (my mother was not affectionate). I just started doing it because it felt like the thing to do.

    When I read about game, it was an epiphany for me for me as well, because I was too emotional to follow The Rules (be aloof, hard to get, appear busy). I didn’t understand why guys liked “demonstrative” so much, when the mainstream message was totally opposite.

    As with guy game, girl game needs inner congruence. If you fake it but don’t fake well enough, it can really come off as weird. So start with what you’re comfortable with, and don’t think of it as being “beneath” you, more like you’re trying on a “different outfit.”

    That makes sense Hope. I think a big part of why I have had a hard time accepting “femininity” and girl game is because I do think it’s beneath me. I guess I see it as being weak or needy, but I should try to view it as a softer strength. As I stated earlier, I may end up liking certain girl game tactics and feminine aspects once I’ve tried them.

    At least you can now claim to be be a “natural” Alpha, when it comes to femininity and emotion. ;)

    In this regard, I’m the beta that needs to learn and implement game.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I’m going to risk offending you with a bit of armchair psych. I believe you’ve mentioned an alpha dad, not a good guy. That’s where you need to do some work. Get yourself a female therapist and dig way down. I’ve done it myself (5 years) and it made a huge difference in my life.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, another thought I have is that you can find your own style of femininity. For example, you can really ooze warm, sultry femininity. You don’t have to do “cutesy” if that’s not your thing. You can do passionate, sensual, fiery and loyal, more like a tigress or lioness than a kitten. I think alpha males (the lion type) would be more attracted to that sort of display, too.

    So instead of sending cutesy love notes, you could call him and leave a voicemail in a sexy voice to let him know you were thinking about him a lot, he intrigues you, he lights a fire in you, etc. It’s still emotional escalation and investment, but more sultry in style.

  • Jungennamen

    “That’s great girl game advice Hope! The only thing I would add is draping scarves over your lamp shades to give an allure of mysteriousness. Men love that.”

    Can someone explain this? I’m German so maybe its a cultural thing but how would scarves create allure?

  • Just1X

    @Jungennamen

    generally speaking, less light = more romantic

    Alte

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Sassy, another thought I have is that you can find your own style of femininity. For example, you can really ooze warm, sultry femininity. You don’t have to do “cutesy” if that’s not your thing. You can do passionate, sensual, fiery and loyal, more like a tigress or lioness than a kitten. I think alpha males (the lion type) would be more attracted to that sort of display, too.

    So instead of sending cutesy love notes, you could call him and leave a voicemail in a sexy voice to let him know you were thinking about him a lot, he intrigues you, he lights a fire in you, etc. It’s still emotional escalation and investment, but more sultry in style.

    Great suggestion Hope! I really like this tip.

    “Cutesy” definitely doesn’t suit me, but I think I can pull off “sultry” well. I won’t feel like such a fool by escalating in the way you suggested.

    I have a question for the men. Would the above suggestion work with you?

    I like the tip, but I want to be sure that it doesn’t come across as somewhat “slutty” or overly aggressive to guys. Would you think fondly of a woman that did the aforementioned things?

  • INTJ

    @ Just1X

    generally speaking, less light = more romantic

    Pupil dilation is a sign of attraction. This is why it’s so romantic to “look into his/her eyes”, and why eye contact is so important when flirting.

    Of course, pupils also dilate under dim light, so you can “smooth” the attraction body language using dim light. :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course, pupils also dilate under dim light, so you can “smooth” the attraction body language using dim light.

      Soft, dim lighting is essential to seduction. It’s best for sex, best for dinner, it makes everyone look their best, which reduces inhibition and increases attraction.

      Keep the lights on, low.

  • pvw

    234 Anacaona August 10, 2012 at 5:21 pm
    I just made sure he foung it in me, by being what I was raised to be, a very high MMV girlfriend!

    This is probably a lot harder than upping your SMV. Inner work is a bitch.

    My reply:

    Yes the inner work is hard, if it is needed. Increasing the SMV, that can simply be a matter of dress, hair, clothing, makeup, weight.

    But here is where I think of the obverse, the 5-7 smv but with the 8-10 mmv, is interesting; the inner work might not be necessary, but the presentation of smv might need improvement, ie., looks wise and more girl game to pull prospects in…But even then, the inner work towards girl game might be required.

  • Just1X

    @Sassy

    just a thought (so FWIW) when I was freshly divorced I happened to read one of the books by Allan Pease and his wife

    “In 1999 he co-wrote Why Men don’t Listen and Women can’t read Maps with his wife Barbara. The book uses biology and evolutionary psychology to explain the differences between male and female cultures.” (they wrote others along similar lines ‘don’t cry/can’t read maps’ etc)

    This was pre red-pill, it opened my eyes to the reality that men and women were different (duh, but this was news to an innocent nice-guyish traditional UK man in the late 90′s). It has many scenarios that made me go, “that’s something that happened”, “oh crap my male response to her female behaviour just missed what was required” (treating her telling me of her problems as a request for me to solve them – oh bollox). If I had read the book some years earlier, things would have taken a different path (not necessarily happier, but different). There would have been better understanding of each other.. I’d say the book was my first taste of the red pill.

    The reason that I bring it up is that your description of your personality…well it sounds a lot like mine (sorry about that). I consider myself on the male end of masculinity (logic, independant, thoughtful). MGTOW is not a big leap for me, though I don’t think of myself as committed to it as it is now; I’ll change my way as I see fit.

    If I were you and I was interested in a man (if you see what I mean), I might have a read of those books and see the differences that he (they) identify between male and female behaviour. Understand the differences and choose if / how much of which behaviours you can / want to adapt.

    Clearly you can choose not to change anything, and that’s your right

    anyway, it’s hideously late here, so goodnight

    (I hope the hour hasn’t caused me to cause offence, because none is meant)

    p.s.
    Susan’s list is great, I wouldn’t change it at all. I’m just offering another source of info / insight / p.o.v.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Sassy, before I met my husband I read a few articles by a woman named Yangki Christine Akiteng. I think you might benefit from reading some of her stuff. I believe she is African and dates white men so she has some perspectives to offer on that front.

    http://relationships.wrytestuff.com/swa151093.htm
    http://searchwarp.com/swa239867.htm

  • Keynesian

    Would other men here be allured by scarves thrown over lamp shades and purring like a kitten?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    On the epigenetic and twin question.

    Mono twins come out of the womb with nearly identical chromosomes. Look at em, stain em, sequence em they’re nearly identical.

    Wait 50 years.

    Compare. They look similar in the way looking in a fun house mirror is similar.

    However Ana is correct womb conditions do control most of it.

    PS I skipped along and missed the beginning of this convo. Only saw your post. If this is outta left field, pardon my random outburst.

    ——————————————————————————-

    Good list. I’m gonna second Mike M, these will land a women a husband.
    Especially the sex goddess stuff. W

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Thanks for commenting, I am happy to see you! You always add something material to the conversation. I hope you are enjoying married life.

  • Just1X

    @Keynesian

    Eartha Kitt – http://www.earthakitt.com/

    She defined sultry

    She was Catwoman in the old Batman series, but if you’re looking for sultry; in ‘Up the Chastity Belt’ she played ‘Scheherazade’. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067917/ certificate 12, I’d guess in modern terms. A bawdy comedy with (at most) some upper nudity, that probably being backals (not frontals). A Frankie Howard comedy – ooo-err missus

  • http://aplace-formythoughts.blogspot.com/ Renee

    Royale W. Cheese,
    But don’t ever be better or more knowledgable in his interest than he is. If you naturally are, pretend you’re not, if that helps. In high school I dated a guy who loved to draw. When people praised my paintings in his presence, he got very put off. I wasn’t old and wise enough to master the art of praising him to detract from myself. To be honest, his drawing skills didn’t make praise come easily, either. Perhaps women should also stick with men who are better at certain things than they are.

    I don’t know….I feel iffy about this. I’ve always given the “side-eye” to the idea that a woman has to fake being less as good or knowledgable at something, or in some way hide her abilities for the sake of some guy’s ego. You just knew how to draw and your abilities happened to be better than his. You couldn’t help that. Instead of looking at you as an inspiration to become better and celebrating your gift with you, he got put off, all because you got compliments.

    Now I’m not saying that a woman should shove her abilities and knowledge in her man’s face and make him feel bad at not being better than or as good as her at something. But…I’m not sure about faking being less knowledgable/not as good as something for another person’s sake. You BOTH just share the same interests.

    With that being said, if a guy shares his knowledge of something that you already know, as if he’s trying to teach you something, it’s ok to nod and let him explain. I do that with anyone who does that to me, and sometimes I don’t say anything, and sometimes I kindly let them know that I already know ;)

  • OffTheCuff

    Sassy @ 227… YES!!! I’ve been reading the dialogue between you and Mike, cheering along as you got closer and closer. It’s ego-investment in a particular psychological model of yourself, likely formed when very young based on erroneous reasoning that a child makes. As an adult, you can reform that mental model of yourself into what you wish to be, based on better data. I’ve been there myself, and being an INTJ, can personally relate to those NT tendencies.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Hope

    Thanks for the links. I’ve been reading them, and now I’m going to read a few more of her pieces.

    @ Susan Walsh

    I’m on the edge of my seat! What are you thinking?

    Here’s what I’ve come away with so far:

    1. My self-image, past experiences with men, and ENTP personality profile all conflict with ideas of “femininity”. I definitely look feminine on the outside, but I’m not feminine at all on the inside. That aspect of me flourishes and thrives well in academia and my career, but it is an absolute detriment to my love life.

    2. I’ve been hesitant to nourish my feminine side (I know I have one somewhere), because I have negative ideas about femininity. I’ve considered it to be a form of weakness, and I’ve thought that it’s beneath me.

    3. Not only do I have a hard time understanding and accepting femininity, due to my ENTP profile, but I also avoid opening up to men because I fear being hurt. As I’ve stated before, I don’t have many positive experiences with men. I put a wall around my heart to keep myself from getting hurt, but the same wall keeps good men out as well. I don’t open up, and men decide not to open up to me as a result. I’m shooting myself in the foot, basically.

    I’m going to risk offending you with a bit of armchair psych. I believe you’ve mentioned an alpha dad, not a good guy. That’s where you need to do some work. Get yourself a female therapist and dig way down. I’ve done it myself (5 years) and it made a huge difference in my life.

    I’m not offended at all. I’ll put some consideration into it.

    @ OffTheCuff

    Sassy @ 227… YES!!! I’ve been reading the dialogue between you and Mike, cheering along as you got closer and closer. It’s ego-investment in a particular psychological model of yourself, likely formed when very young based on erroneous reasoning that a child makes. As an adult, you can reform that mental model of yourself into what you wish to be, based on better data. I’ve been there myself, and being an INTJ, can personally relate to those NT tendencies.

    That definitely seems to be where a bulk of my problem comes from. I have to start thinking of femininity in a different way. I need to reshape my self-image a little bit as well. I can’t see femininity as a liability, weakness, or deficit. I also need to believe that a worthy man will appreciate that aspect of me.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve done it myself (5 years) and it made a huge difference in my life.

    I had taken counseling when I was in college and I also used psychoanalysis. It helped me a lot to to fight off some demons.

    However Ana is correct womb conditions do control most of it.

    I’m correct about something!!! WOOHOOO!!! It was about time :p

  • Hope (the other one)

    @ Ramble #139

    Sorry, I didn’t mean that you should omit that in a relationship with your man! That’s so important. I just meant, in your other relationships – with your best friend, your family etc. you could also employ many of these tips .. I think many of them work across the board for positive relationships (not just sexual ones). I think the sex tips are awesome :)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    The reason that I bring it up is that your description of your personality…well it sounds a lot like mine (sorry about that). I consider myself on the male end of masculinity (logic, independant, thoughtful). MGTOW is not a big leap for me, though I don’t think of myself as committed to it as it is now; I’ll change my way as I see fit.

    If I were you and I was interested in a man (if you see what I mean), I might have a read of those books and see the differences that he (they) identify between male and female behaviour. Understand the differences and choose if / how much of which behaviours you can / want to adapt.

    Good idea Just1X. Also, don’t apologize for suggesting that our personalities are similar.

    I consider you good company. ;)

  • Sai

    @Ramble, Susan

    Thank you! :)
    (I guess I can have half a donut.)

  • Sai

    (Wait, that was INTJ with the donuts! Sorry! Thank you too, INTJ! I should sleep.)

  • Abbot

    “women in the 5-7 range are aggressively pursuing casual sex, then both male 5-7s and female 8-10s are displaced, which is what I have previously argued”

    and does coincide with slut-class confirmation from Joel-

    “Yup. I was always skeptical of this when I joined HUS, but I’m increasingly buying it.”

    The slut class, as it were, is populated with a very large subset of women – the fives sixes and sevens. They are everywhere. In the office. Next door. On the bus. Conversely, their male counterparts do not get to be sluts. So what we have here are two large groups, the women group and the men group, who are most ideal for each other except for that one big thing they just dont quite have in common. And its a bigee alright.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    Mrs. Walsh!
    Sorry I am late to this party, but can I just say I LOVE this list…
    I can see how it is a winning list for women.
    Whoever mentioned ‘fembots’ is right. When women follow feminist thinking, it gets them nowhere.
    This list on the other hand…
    So I thank you for posting this. I try to follow it and will come back to tell you the results!

    :-D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JT

      I look forward to your field report!

  • Just1X

    @Sassy
    Morning, glad I didn’t offend. It can be hard to predict when you can’t look the other in the eye, or even listen to their voice.

    One last suggestion, bearing in mind that I don’t actually knowing you, or where you live, or much about your interests. You would appear to be very low on the drama queen index(!). This would make you a low cost female to have around a mostly male group (in a good way). Many (but not all) such groups like having females around as long as they don’t over do the ‘girly’. They can see you might need a little extra help, but you don’t make a drama out of it, so they probably quite like helping. Don’t try and be exactly ‘one of the guys’ though.

    In such groups:
    1) your relative-to-the-group femininity is maximised
    2) you’re meeting (probably) more masculine men, the more you meet…
    3) hopefully having fun anyway
    4) you get to gratefully, but as no big thing, accept help from stronger, more knowledgeable in the scene, men. as a lady would.

    The hobbies that leap to mind are scuba diving, small boat sailing and the like. I’m sure that there are others that are majority male in reality, but not because they have to be (cage fighting, WWE) etc.

    Just thought I’d put that in your mental toaster and see what pops up
    (inevitable comedy quote, sorry. ‘Drop the dead donkey’)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I love Just1X’s suggestions about Sassy’s potential to be the “cool chick” that likes to do guy stuff. I agree that this is a good way to emphasize her femaleness, and also it might be a good way for Sassy to try on some feminine behaviors. A form of CBT, really.

  • Travis

    @Susan,
    I don’t have much to add, but I just wanted to say “thank you”. That was an amazing list. If a girl can master even half of those things she’d be a hell of a catch. And I also agree about the “politically correct” part. It’s a shame. I honestly think most girls really want to please their men. But because of feminist resistance to ideas like these, they have absolutely no idea how. If every Cosmo and Seventeen type magazine in the land started publishing advice like this, I have no doubt there would be a hell of a lot more happy men AND women out there.

    I just hope all the ladies out there lurking are paying attention. THIS POST is a step by step instruction manual on how to make a guy fall in love with you. Follow it, and if he’s even slightly into you physically, I pretty much guarantee that he’ll be totally crazy about you in no time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Travis

      Thanks for the great feedback.

      THIS POST is a step by step instruction manual on how to make a guy fall in love with you. Follow it, and if he’s even slightly into you physically, I pretty much guarantee that he’ll be totally crazy about you in no time.

      That’s an inspiring endorsement! It almost makes me wish I could try this strategy out myself. :)

      In all seriousness, I would describe this list as the 25 reasons why I’m happily married after 28 years. I learned a lot of this through trial and error, and I wish someone had handed me this information when I was young and clueless.

  • Abbot

    “feminist resistance to ideas like these”

    Feminists have reduced women to non-captivating vaginas

  • evilalpha

    @Susan Walsh

    I’m not sure about that. I think that men who have experienced a lot of sexual variety are likely to experience difficulty with monogamy. Not long ago a male reader here was thinking of breaking up with his gf because he couldn’t stop the “greatest hits” tape from playing in his head (his number is 25). There is one study that shows male marital sexual satisfaction goes down 5% for every premarital partner, but it was done at BYU and I don’t really trust it.
    I honestly don’t know about this – the jury’s out as far as I am concerned. My husband’s count of around 20 (I don’t know it for sure, no one kept track in the 80s) has never interfered with his satisfaction in our marriage. I don’t have a good sense of where the tipping point is, but I do believe there is one.

    The verdict is in. Sex and a sammich!

    Look, the hitch with monogamy is the way it gets practiced in 2012. Most men who cheat weren’t manwhores so that should tell you something right there. The notable similarity amongst men who cheat is their crappy home sex life, not their premarital partner count…specifically that these men are not offered sex (either in volume or kind) that would assist them in remaining faithful. How many cheaters get the type of sex they want from both wife and the other woman on the same day? Same week? Same month? Same quarter? The limits of male plumbing should be a wife’s ally, not an afterthought.

    The sad truth is that the modern, feminist influenced woman lacks the know how (thus your sex goddess section) and the commitment (note all the naysayer comments) to stack the deck in favor of monogamy. She and her sisters likely better understand vampire lust than male lust. And all the bandwidth on dark triad traits is just reflexive female ego protection and deflection. To frame cheating as a “male flaw” rather than how it ought to be viewed… a couple’s and feminist cultural issue… is a small political victory with a huge personal cost.

    Yes there’s a tipping point for potentially adulterous males, but that’s way out there at the Charlie Sheen level. I guarantee that a lot of infidelity would never see the light of day if women would just offer their men the right kind of “some” twice a week, but then it’s easier to neglect and call him a douchebag when he eventually gets it elsewhere. Maybe if Hollywood prenups had a “put out” clause, the world would finally get the hint. But, hey, I’m not holding my breath.

    As for the “greatest hits” guy. It’s most likely not his 25, but his sexual relationship with his current girlfriend that’s the problem. I highly doubt she made the cut for the tape playing in his head… because well she’s probably not really interested in making the cut. 25 is nothing. Shhhh…

    Ladies, guys are simple…even manwhores. But you gotta make at least a little effort in the right direction. This site is steering you there. Keep reading it.

  • Travis

    @Hope.

    “Sassy, the “beta” mindset is exactly right on for girl game.

    Think of the nicest, sweetest, kindest beta guy who has the world’s worst case of oneitis. Now make that a cute, pretty young girl with flowing long hair, wearing a feminine sundress, who smiles warmly at you. Her eyes light up when she sees you and sadden when you leave, because she loves to be near you and is a little bit clingy. She writes your name in her notebook with doodle hearts next to it, and sends you love notes.”

    Just want to say that I hope you continue to use your powers for good instead of evil. With your understanding of male psychology, you could wreak some serious havoc on all the unsuspecting guys out there if you ever chose to.
    Again, to all the girls out there reading, Hope is another one you should be listening to. She’s got it figured out.

  • Sai

    @evilalpha

    I agree with you. My dad never cheated on my mom. “All men cheat” is a sexist statement.

    One of my orchestra teachers knew a guy who had a pre-nup that said if his wife didn’t put out at least x times/y duration the marriage would be annulled. When I first heard about it I thought it was excessive, but that was before I started learning things.

    If you love somebody, wouldn’t you want to get it on a lot anyway?

    (LOL at “vampire lust.” I always preferred Soviets, but those are still men… *flee*)

  • evilalpha

    @Sai,

    Thanks for the anecdotes

    If you love somebody, wouldn’t you want to get it on a lot anyway?

    What does a lot mean? It’s different for men and women…. even when in love. One of the biggest problems with Feminism is that it preaches androgyny myths that sabotage monogamy. When women think they are as just horny as men, inevitably men don’t get enough sex. And that’s bad news.

  • OffTheCuff

    Everything is great here, but the title amuses me, which reads a bit much like a Cosmo article. I’m waiting for the sequel, “25 effective ways to make her sleep with you”! ;)

    Better titled 25 ways to be girlfriend material.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Better titled 25 ways to be girlfriend material.

      That is a good title. I went with the current one for two reasons:

      1. I want to clue women in that they will be required to shed years of feminist programming.

      2. I want to answer the question “Why don’t I have a boyfriend?”, which is the #1 search term that brings people to HUS.

  • pvw

    Travis:

    If every Cosmo and Seventeen type magazine in the land started publishing advice like this, I have no doubt there would be a hell of a lot more happy men AND women out there.

    My reply:

    I know these magazines have been around forever, and I would be interested in knowing what they looked like in their pre-feminist days. I once saw a very old (early 1960s or so) issue of one of those magazines, and the emphasis seemed to be on reaching out in their articles to the the older teenager who was going to be married soon. But in today’s feminist world, the emphasis is not on marriage at all.

    Most women’s magazines back then, and this includes Cosmo pre Helen Gurley Brown, was on par with Good Housekeeping. A NYT article talks about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/magazine/how-cosmo-conquered-the-world.html?pagewanted=all

    Evilalpha

    As for the “greatest hits” guy. It’s most likely not his 25, but his sexual relationship with his current girlfriend that’s the problem. I highly doubt she made the cut for the tape playing in his head… because well she’s probably not really interested in making the cut. 25 is nothing. Shhhh…

    My reply:

    Or she might not know how to make the cut if she isn’t as experienced as he is….Is she interested, and is he willing to work with her?

    Awake in Alabama:

    Your gf checked off 23 out of 25 and yet you were unable to stick around even for that! I’m sorry but somebody has to say it. Do you really think you’re going to find a 25/25 out there in today’s jungle? This is what is called too picky. There is no perfect person out there. There’s always a trade off somewhere.

    My reply:

    Some men who are the top in terms of smv (sexually attractive) and mmv (high earning power) don’t find it a jungle out there, or if it is a jungle, they are pretty good hunters and so they can take their time. They get what they want, and so they can afford to be picky. There is always another woman out there….

  • evilalpha

    @pvw

    Or she might not know how to make the cut if she isn’t as experienced as he is….Is she interested, and is he willing to work with her?

    Tsk.Tsk. Excuses already. Just proves my point.

    1.Enthusiasm trumps apathetic experience anyday…stop projecting a feminine psyche onto men.
    2. Men are sooo reluctant to show a woman how to please him sexually if she asks *rollseyes*

  • Sai

    @evilalpha
    “What does a lot mean? It’s different for men and women…. even when in love. One of the biggest problems with Feminism is that it preaches androgyny myths that sabotage monogamy. When women think they are as just horny as men, inevitably men don’t get enough sex. And that’s bad news.”

    I didn’t think about it that way. I always thought for whatever reason that at least 3 (good) times a week was the goal.
    This is probably one of those things couples need to sit down and talk about so that nobody gets frustrated.

  • pvw

    Tsk.Tsk. Excuses already. Just proves my point.

    My reply:

    No excuses here, as in, I didn’t have that problem!

  • pvw

    Abbott:

    Years ago, the screw-only and marry-only piles of women were in the same town or at least in the same country. The two-pile system is even more pronounced today but between countries. Pile blurring or pile merging ONLY benefits promiscuous women and their feminist cheerleaders and does NOTHING for men, their desires or their interests. What we have here is a ram rodded captive audience of men

    My reply:

    The link I posted to the article on Cosmo note that it has numerous international editions, having made much headway overseas in cultivating feminist ideas….

  • Just1X

    @Susan
    I can’t understand why I didn’t find this before, but TA-DA
    http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DDGntH-aOlWU
    TLOG series 1 episode 1

  • Evilalpha

    pvw

    No excuses here, as in, I didn’t have that problem

    And?? You are still guilty of hamstering for team girl. Seriously why would you bring up inexperience? Men just love high partner count in grilfriends don’t we. Ex porn stars are the most sough after brides in America, amiright?

    Shhh…. don’t dig a deeper whole

  • Bobley

    @evilalpha, “Enthusiasm trumps apathetic experience anyday…stop projecting a feminine psyche onto men.” Ha, truer words were never spoken! I think back to a few months I spent in college with a girl who was a virgin when I met her but was rarin’ to go. Good times :)

    I think sexual experience is important for a guy to do well with women. No woman (that I know of, at least) dreams about getting ravished by a virgin. It may go back to that conversation in the movie Clerks: a guy is going to get the big O from sex pretty much every time regardless of partner’s experience, but women can be a little bit tougher to please. Hence their greater premium on sexual experience. Plus, confidence seems to be such a turn on for women, and a virgin bursting with confidence in the bedroom is a rarity.

    @Abbot, I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but you seem to have a lot of bitterness . I’ve seen many of your posts and acknowledge that there is truth in many of them, but you catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

  • Evilalpha

    @Sai

    I didn’t think about it that way. I always thought for whatever reason that at least 3 (good) times a week was the goal.
    This is probably one of those things couples need to sit down and talk about so that nobody gets frustrated.

    Why talk??? Every good feminist knows women are just as sexual as men!

    In all seriousness this topic is a must have discussion for me and if a woman doesn’t initiate the subject of frequency, some way or somehow she’s not a keeper in my book and too far down the feminist rabbit hole to keep around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      if a woman doesn’t initiate the subject of frequency, some way or somehow she’s not a keeper in my book and too far down the feminist rabbit hole to keep around.

      What if she bangs your brains out every day and never brings it up?

  • Evilalpha

    Years ago, the screw-only and marry-only piles of women were in the same town or at least in the same country. The two-pile system is even more pronounced today but between countries. Pile blurring or pile merging ONLY benefits promiscuous women and their feminist cheerleaders and does NOTHING for men, their desires or their interests. What we have here is a ram rodded captive audience of men

    Yup. Non sluts fuck up the market value of sluts.
    That’s why feminists hate virgins…especially sex “positive” feminists. Ironic isn’t it.

  • pvw

    And?? You are still guilty of hamstering for team girl. Seriously why would you bring up inexperience? Men just love high partner count in grilfriends don’t we. Ex porn stars are the most sough after brides in America, amiright?

    Shhh…. don’t dig a deeper whole

    My reply:

    I don’t see it as hamstering at all or even digging a deep hole, and I am not in favor of women becoming porn stars or anything of that sort. I brought up inexperience because I recall reading a continuum of responses in other responses–some of the male commentators would have no problem with a girlfriend with absolutely no experience, while others have clearly stated that they would not mind or even wanted girlfriends with more experience but not too much (in whatever capacity they define it). Of course, str v. ltr strategies are important here too and that will explain some of the differences.

    If anything, we are on the same page; you mentioned that men stray because they are not getting what they want at home, I wondered whether it could be a matter also of men working with women to make sure they got what they wanted so that they won’t tray Was she interested and he wanted to work with her? You mentioned it wouldn’t be an issue for many men (which I can understand) but that I was making excuses? I didn’t see how you thought I was making excuses. I replied that I never had a problem in that sphere and so I wasn’t making excuses for anything.

  • Abbot

    “feminists hate virgins…especially sex “positive” feminists”

    They are done picking on virgins. They mainly focus on going after women who reign in sex activity as a means to placating men and having a bonding relationship with one man now or in the future.

    The asshole created term “sex positive” is used in an attempt to make everyone who disagrees look like pearl-clutching idiots. No different than the term “pro-choice” to make others who disagree to appear as anti-choice.

    “Ironic isn’t it.”

    The irony rest in the fact that it requires men [a certain small group of men] to participate in their goal of getting women to be free sexually from any one man. Therein lies the rub. Feminists absolutely hate that they have to depend on men to accomplish anything. But alas, here we are…

  • Jackie

    @Just1X

    Hey J1X,
    I actually started watching TLOG after you mentioned it on the other thread as a superior choice of the surreal! Here was my initial viewing response:

    :shock:

    It’s hilarious but *beyond* insane!

    “This is a local shop for local people!” Benjamin’s aunt and uncle– the morning “breakfast” routine :shock: Aahhh! (Only about to start ep 4 so far!) And supposedly there is a CHRISTMAS special?!

    Just1, have you heard of a little American movie called “Texas Chainsaw Massacre”? Because this is like the MORE insane (comedic) version of it!!!

  • evilalpha

    I wondered whether it could be a matter also of men working with women to make sure they got what they wanted so that they won’t tray Was she interested and he wanted to work with her?

    We aren’t on the same page.
    A man shouldn’t NEED to convice a girlfriend to get interested in giving him the amount/type of sex he wants. Your whole tone is one of “he should aks her to ask him” and thats all the feminist indoctrination coming through. I have no doubt you don’t see the hamster, but it is surely there!

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Re the comments about Cosmopolitan, somebody mocked up what the 18th Century version might have looked like:

    http://acculturated.com/2012/07/10/cosmo-mag-gets-eighteenth-century-makeover/

    Note also the reference to a real new magazine, Verily.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    now, I did warn you!

    But your response is cracking me up…it is indeed beyond insane. Not everything makes me laugh, but of those bits that don’t, well they become funnier in retrospect as you discover things about: the ‘local shop’ owners’ relationship (also “We didn’t burn him”) and the posh woman and her cleaner etc etc.

    How about:
    Nude Tuesday (IIRC)?
    Barbara the taxi driver?
    Papa Lazarou (“You’re my wife now, Dave”)?
    Mr Chinnery and the autopsy? as a surgeon?
    Toadface Denton’s plan for…(enough said)

    The Major is played by a well-known-for-swearing IRL comic called Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown, who was christened ‘Royston Vasey’. His character is renowned for swearing at inopportune moments.

    I love Mr Chinnery and the Hamster which appears to be from the radio show only (I gave a link for the audio download on the Askmen thread*), but today I watched TV S2E4 @9:55 Mr Chinnery and the dog Bentley, I just couldn’t stop laughing…but it is horrible. I’m still hoping that they do the hamster on the TV show…I haven’t seen every episode.

    They had a movie, a live show, a couple of specials and another series called Psychoville (not seen it, but didn’t become a big hit. will be watching it next on UK netflix).

    I’m really glad that you’re enjoying the experience, and the weirdness is on going, there’s no normal to be found.

    *Download the rar (like .zip) of the first radio series (worked for me)
    On the town with the League of Gentlemen
    http://www.mediafire.com/?lxttg393t4cqhhd
    One clue for non-local people is that ‘bird’ in english English has a couple of meanings: woman and prison time. And another, Dole is unemployment benefit.

  • Iggles

    Been catching up on this thread. Was too busy during the week to post, but I got say this is such an amazing post! The comments have been enjoyable to read as well, with a focus on offering advice and positivity! :-D

    Sassy – Is that a picture of you with with Coby Dick of Papa Roach? (Haha, used to listen to them and Linkin Park back in HS! Still like their songs.)

    Anyway, I agree with you regarding “mate poaching”. When I was dating, one of the top things I was looking for in a guy was someone who was emotionally available and ready for a relationship. A guy currently in a relationship with someone else is neither, in regards to starting a new relationship with me!

    Also, it took me a year and half to get over my last LTR, so I wouldn’t want to end up someone else’s rebound — which is a real risk you take when you poach or date someone who just ended a relationship! IMO, timing is such an important factor in which relationships succeed and which ultimately don’t get off the ground. You could be the perfect woman, but if a guy isn’t looking for a relationship and/or marriage then it’s not going to happen!

  • Iggles

    @ Jackie:

    Because there could be an intermediate step between “not getting enough sex” and “being a cheater,” that could involve *asking for what you need*.

    If it’s difficult for the guy to spit the words out, he could just forward this list to her and say “check out #23!!!” If she absolutely refuses, then the honorable thing to do would be to break up with her and find someone else who can give you what you want.

    Agreed!

    Sometimes two people are just not sexually compatiable. But most of the time problems in the bedroom can be fixed by simply communicating your wants/needs/desires. It feels really good when you’re in sync with your partner and no words are needed. But if you’re not on the same page about something it’s prudent to discuss it!

    Now, if after some discussions the problem persists, then you may have to consider whether or not this is something the two of you can continue to work out, or if it’s relationship ender.

    Sorry but cheating is cowardly as hell in my book. My dad called those kind of people “gutless wonders.”

    Co-sign!!!

  • evilalpha

    Evil, you are justifying cheating and denying men agency. Not cool, in my books.
    Nah girl.
    Just pointing out that a woman who decides to get fat and forgets to screw her husband for a whole year doesn’t get a soap box upon which to whine about a cheating husband and his agency.

    Your dad sounds like a sucker (ie. white knight)

    And once again. Why should a guy need to forward a “how to be a good girlfriend “check list to a girlfriend. She should already have it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why should a guy need to forward a “how to be a good girlfriend “check list to a girlfriend. She should already have it.

      Why should a man need to seek advice online and learn Game? He should already know how to sexually attract women.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Iggles

    Sassy – Is that a picture of you with with Coby Dick of Papa Roach? (Haha, used to listen to them and Linkin Park back in HS! Still like their songs.)

    Haha! It is indeed. It’s one of my many photoshop masterpieces. I used to listen to Linkin Park and Papa Roach in high school as well.

  • Iggles

    Sassy – Haha! Wow, you Photoshopped it? I thought you met him after a concert or something! Great job! :-D

    Curious, do you work in a STEM field? Seems like you have graphic design chops. I’m a web designer.

  • Sai

    #342 -Mr. Foster

    I would read that.

  • pvw

    Evilalpha:

    Your whole tone is one of “he should aks her to ask him”

    My reply:

    Not at all, but a matter of each side expressing what it is s/he needs/wants. He will likely have a better idea, if he is more experienced; so, he can take the initiative, work with her, show her what he needs and experimenting to come up with ideas of what she might like….I could not imagine an experienced man asking (begging?) an inexperienced woman to ask him what he wants. I can see him telling her what he likes and guiding things from there.

    David Foster re. 18th c. Cosmo: http://acculturated.com/2012/07/10/cosmo-mag-gets-eighteenth-century-makeover/

    My reply:

    Yes, we need more of that today. I can see it now, perhap that cover, with a number of interesting articles inside, morality tales. I think a 19th c. version would be better though; the same cover could work, but the woman in the cover would be wearing a different (ie., early 19th c.) outfit, and there would be a serialization of Jane Austen’s books!

  • unigirl

    Loved this post. Just felt compelled to say this seriously I can not believe it’s that common for women in relationships turning down sex, like seriously who are these women lol in a relationship, sex whenever they want it and they’re turning it down, I’d swap places with them any day of the week! I reckon the old wasn’t getting enough at home is a bit of an excuse/ assumption people make a lot of the time, like a commenter on here I think, was explaining variety appeals more than regular sex with the same old anyway

  • J

    Crabb, in “Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference” makes a number of points which would cause HUSers’ teeth to hurt.
    One which he emphasizes, and which is addressed glancingly by other practitioners, is that a woman’s trust and appreciation actually builds a man

    Why would you expect that to bother the women who comment here? I can’t think of a single married commenter who would disagree with that.

  • Iggles

    Now to comment about the list — Susan, great work on this!! It’s excellent girl game advice for women.

    Reading through it, I see of mix of things I did intuitively and things I learned in reading relationship blogs (HUS and others). From when I started dating my bf to now, I’ve done 24 out of 25! ;-)

    1. Actively support him.

    We both do this for each other other. I read somewhere that being happy for one another and encouraging is a hallmark of healthy relationships.

    7. Develop your own private language and inside jokes.

    Whether it’s a nickname, a laugh shared, or a funny mishap, you can promote bonding by highlighting experiences unique to the two of you.

    Ha! Do we ever? :lol:
    I cringe a little when I think back to when we first had dinner with his bestfriend. I kept bringing up all this stuff I later learned were inside jokes between us. I mistakenly thought he mentioned them to her as well. *shrugs*

    13. Do not compete with family and friends.

    Ah, this one was trial by fire for me. I didn’t actively “compete” or anything, but I was insecure about my place in his life at the beginning.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Iggles

    Sassy – Haha! Wow, you Photoshopped it? I thought you met him after a concert or something! Great job!

    Curious, do you work in a STEM field? Seems like you have graphic design chops. I’m a web designer.

    Yeah, I photoshopped it. Thanks for the props! I wish I had met him after a concert. I had a minor celebrity crush on him when I was younger. I saw him in concert once, and he was fantastic, and that’s what inspired me to photoshop the two of us together. I made it a few years ago.

    I’m not in the STEM field, but I guess my photoshop skills are somewhat up to par. ;)

  • J

    So this traditional healthy cooking is kind of hard to find so where do women that want to learn this can find it?

    Adult ed classes.

  • J

    What it means is that you should not bother him with problems that don’t have a solution. If the solution is putting some jerk in his place, changing a tire, mediating a dispute, or just holding you while you cry for a few minutes, that’s fine. If you bring him a problem that has no solution, all it can possibly do is add to his stress.

    I had an interesting discussion yesterday with a friend about men being attracted to happy women. It seems to me that the best men really do want to make a woman happy. When they see a happy woman, they see someone who they can make happy. When they see someone who is chronically troubled, they see someone who will not be pleased by even their best efforts. Having unsolvable problems puts a woman in the second category, and, since there is that drive to make a woman happy, it’s a big stressor for men.

  • pvw

    Iggles:

    13. Do not compete with family and friends.

    Ah, this one was trial by fire for me. I didn’t actively “compete” or anything, but I was insecure about my place in his life at the beginning.

    My reply:

    And this is here where you can shine; when we were dating, the husband was dealing with some difficulties in his relationship with a few of his relatives. I encouraged him to work towards mending the rift. I visited them with him, providing him moral support and making a good impression upon them, but without getting in the middle of any contentions.

    But from the beginning, I didn’t push to meet them and neither did I push for him to meet my family. He met a few friends I had locally; in my mind, it was up to him to set the pace about meeting his family. I knew though, that inviting me to visit with them, when it had been a long time since he brought someone to visit, was going to be a big deal.

  • J

    I normally disapprove of girls who steal someone’s boyfriend/husband ….

    I find the notion of mate stealing odd. It makes it sound as though the mate being stolen has no agency or choice. Likewise, I’m not big on mate guarding. I see it as one spouses’ responsibility to the other to be faithful. If he or she can’t stay faithful, they are more blamworthy than someone who tries to steal another’s mate, IMO. If I caught DH cheating, I’d blame him, not the other woman (not that her participation makes her a good perosn). I think he would feel the same if he caught my cheating. He’d blame me before he blamed the other guy

  • Royale W. Cheese

    I see a lot of male endorsement of this list. That’s very encouraging. It seems that most folks agree that these things will be effective in making a guy your boyfriend, and even your husband.

    The million dollar question is, will these things make him *loyal*? To the PUA and player, what’s even better than one 25-lister is two or three. That is where selection comes in, which Susan alluded to. Even if all women across the world simultaneously adopted this list, not every man would benefit.

  • J

    @Sassy

    In looking over your exchange with Hope and other regarding your inability to do some of the things on SW’s list or be “more of a kitten and less of a tigress,” I’d say don’t stress. You are who you are. That may b e be the average guy’s cup of tea, but there are still plenty of guys who like us independent, uneootional women. The advice of playing up your low maintainence traits and being one of the guys in some situations is good. It does set you up to be the “cool girl,” and there are men who like that. (I’m not real girly and men still find me attractive.)

    As to not feeling some of the stuff on the list, I can tell you that when you feel real love for a man, his well being will be as important to you as your own. You may not find yourself being clingy, or needy or kittenish, but you will no doubt demonstrate loyalty and consideration and that will probably be what the sort of guy you’d attract will want anyway.

  • evilalpha

    What if she bangs your brains out every day and never brings it up?
    As they say…actions speak louder than words.. so it counts. I’ve been there actually… it lasted 5ish months. We split for employment reasons.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    I’m eagerly anticipating your (&hubby’s) reactions.

    Jackie’s reaction? …it made my day 8)

  • J

    I know these magazines have been around forever, and I would be interested in knowing what they looked like in their pre-feminist days.

    I’m old enough to recall the tail end of that period. Those mags offered “man pleasing” advise about how to land a husband and keep him faithful. The onus for building a relationship was on the woman. In many ways it still is. Today’s Cosmo won’t teach you how to please a man by cooking him a candlelight French dinner, but it will teach you to use a scrunchie as a marital aid. But the onus is still on the woman to persuade the man into a relationship, and the underlaying assumption is that men really don’t want relationships unless women somehow seduce them into one.

    The magazine trend that I find interesting is that men’s mag now attempt to teach men how to build relationships with women by pleasing them. Ask Men in particular does thsi.

  • evilalpha

    PVW

    Not at all, but a matter of each side expressing what it is s/he needs/wants. He will likely have a better idea, if he is more experienced; so, he can take the initiative, work with her, show her what he needs and experimenting to come up with ideas of what she might like….I could not imagine an experienced man asking (begging?) an inexperienced woman to ask him what he wants. I can see him telling her what he likes and guiding things from there.

    Ugh. More hamstering.

    Why did the inexperienced woman return? Poof. You just simply dragged her back out for convenience. I guess you wanna ignore the whole experience versus enthusiam comments eh?

    And once again this is not a matter of expressing wants. If that’s the case why do we need the list titled “25 Politically Incorrect But Effective Ways to Make Him Your Boyfriend”? Women can just wait till men “express” the 25 items to them right? How apathetic! How feminist!

    When are you gonna accept this as a matter of girlfriends taking active interest in the sexual satisfaction of their partners… as suggested in the whole sex goddess section of the list

    If this was a test you would fail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Evilalpha

      You’re being rather fresh and snippity, young man. You’re accusing a highly intelligent and articulate History professor of hamstering. PVW is as reasonable and sane a woman as you will ever find, she’s happily married and always logical. This is not Heartiste. You have some good points to make, and you’ll be more successful in having them heard if you lose the “battle of the sexes” mentality.

  • evilalpha

    My dad is a greater man than you could ever imagine attempting to be…

    I doubt it. Great men don’t typically have spoiled, lippy daughters.

  • pvw

    Evilalpha:

    When are you gonna accept this as a matter of girlfriends taking active interest in the sexual satisfaction of their partners… as suggested in the whole sex goddess section of the list

    If this was a test you would fail.

    My reply:

    I don’t see why you have a disagreement with me on this matter. I take it as a given, that a girlfriend should be interested and enthusiastic and want to be sex a goddess. However, she might not be experienced enough to know how!

  • evilalpha

    Why should a man need to seek advice online and learn Game? He shouldn’t. He should just sit around and complain that a woman didn’t volunteer to teach him.

    Look before you leap next time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Evilalpha

      Why should a man need to seek advice online and learn Game? He shouldn’t. He should just sit around and complain that a woman didn’t volunteer to teach him.

      Look before you leap next time.

      I’m not sure what you mean by this. Nearly all the blue pill men I’ve ever met complain that women (their mothers) never taught them the realities of attraction. I have no idea why dad didn’t step up, but that’s another issue.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ig: “But most of the time problems in the bedroom can be fixed by simply communicating your wants/needs/desires.”

    Are you really saying something emotionally charged as sex can be usually solved purely with rational discussion? Giggle.

    Ideally, yes, but in real life it is not quite that simple. People have sexual hangups, insecurities, and limits. Many women are afraid of having the lights on and can’t even orgasm! Now, if your boyfriend asks for something scarily kinky to you, are you 100% confident that you are going to smile sweetly and say “sorry, not interested!” and not feel one bit different, or is there the slightest chance you might be weirded out, turned off, or mad?

    In an extremely well-ordered, sexual relationship, yes, this can work – like Athol Kay. Can you say you have that level of trust?

    Everyone is tinged with a bit of dysfunction somewhere, and it all comes to a head in the bedroom.

  • pvw

    …and that is where her partner can and should work with her.

    I am thinking of this in light of something someone posted once, about the woman he was seeing who was not “experienced enough,” she might have been his girlfriend, but in his view, she “didn’t know what to do.”

    Was it that she was not interested or not enthusiastic, I didn’t get the sense that was at stake. But if she was inexperienced, I wondered whether he was working with her on that or did her lack of experience meant she was lacking, she would never be a “sex goddess,” and so she would never be girlfriend material…

  • Mint Condition

    “So this traditional healthy cooking is kind of hard to find so where do women that want to learn this can find it?”

    Whole Foods and other health food stores around the country offer free cooking classes and other healthy events.

  • Zach

    @evilalpha

    I was that “25″ guy. The previous commenter misrepresented what I had said. I was not thinking of breaking up with my gf (I did) because of the “greatest hits” tape playing in my head. That really didn’t factor into it much. I was saying that that reel was playing in my head, and I was wondering if because I’d slept with that many girls if it was always going to be that way when I was in a relationship.

    Re: the sex I was having with my girlfriend. No real problems there per se in terms of frequency. We f*cked almost every day, and usually more than once when we did. She was always down for it, on the couch, in the shower, in the bathroom, whenever. That wasn’t the issue. The issue was that after 7 months, it got kind of repetitive. Same positions, same rythym, generally same locations, etc. Also, and girls read this, NO BLOWJOBS. Only one half-hearted attempt in 7 months. Now if I’m having sex, they aren’t totally necessary, but once in a while would have been nice. I had a great one last night and I think I’d forgotten how fantastic they are.

    So you’re partially right, that tape was playing as a result of a bit of sexual boredom. However, I’ve had a couple one night stands with girls that fucked like complete porn stars (I’m talking about every single thing you see in porn being on the table). One girl even asked me to hit her in the face (I refrained). So I don’t think I’m ever going to date a girl who fucks like that all the time. And yes, I didn’t pursue anything with those ONS because they were otherwise batshit crazy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Sorry for misquoting you – I was speaking from memory and obviously got that wrong.

      I seriously do not understand women who don’t give blowjobs. Talk about low hanging fruit!

      That’s like eliminating your best move from the program while performing in the Olympics. Immediate massive deductions ensue.

  • Just1X

    “and it all comes to a head in the bedroom”

    well…if you’re lucky because she’s in the mood

  • Sassy6519

    @ Zach

    However, I’ve had a couple one night stands with girls that fucked like complete porn stars (I’m talking about every single thing you see in porn being on the table). One girl even asked me to hit her in the face (I refrained). So I don’t think I’m ever going to date a girl who fucks like that all the time.

    I’m going to say this, judgement be damned.

    Doing that (being hit in the face during sex), can be fun and erotic sometimes. There, I said it.

    God, I miss good sex.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I’m going to say this, judgement be damned.

      Doing that (being hit in the face during sex), can be fun and erotic sometimes. There, I said it.

      Now I’ll respond, and some may get angry with me.

      I find this deeply disturbing. It really sets off alarm bells for me. I’m not judging you, I am very concerned. I’ll double down on my earlier suggestion that you seek counseling to deal with issues relating to growing up with an extremely dominant father.

  • Jackie

    @Susan, Just1X
    “@Susan

    I’m eagerly anticipating your (&hubby’s) reactions.

    Jackie’s reaction? …it made my day 8)”
    =============
    JustlX, :mrgreen:

    Susan, the series is INSANE! The opening view of an idyllic country village is soon overtaken by transsexual cab drivers giving their passengers explicit details of their transitioning, a brother-sister psychotic duo running the corner store, a kindly vet (think: All Creatures Great and Small) who is actually the Angel of Death– and I’ve only seen the first 4 episodes! And the aunt and uncle from Hell…

    Words simply cannot do this justice. It’s just so insane!

    Oh yeah, and they’re all played by the same 3 guys as some of the most um… , well, er… how to say this?… homely women ever envisaged on screen. And the teeth! It’s like they are aggressively British, “dentally-challenged.”

    And the mayhem. SO much insane mayhem! Your only possible reaction will be:

    :shock:

    But you will be laughing! ;-)

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    Yeah, I photoshopped it. Thanks for the props!

    You’re welcome :)

    I wish I had met him after a concert. I had a minor celebrity crush on him when I was younger. I saw him in concert once, and he was fantastic, and that’s what inspired me to photoshop the two of us together. I made it a few years ago.

    Aww! That’s sweet. I never saw them or Linkin Park in concert! Sounds like an awesome time.

  • Abbot

    ” They get what they want… There is always another woman out there….”

    They are the harem keepers who run spellbound lemur automatons [aka women with faux agency] through a cock gauntlet and spit them out the other end ruined for interest from commitment minded men

  • Jackie

    @Zach

    Hey Zach,
    I hope you saw my post o’encouragement to you, #252. We disagree on the majority of, well, everything! But I absolutely support people speaking up and leaving relationships, instead of dragging things on and remaining unhappy.

    Re: guilt
    Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation: When I have broken up with someone, I feel terrible. But I don’t feel guilty. Ending a relationship is going to be painful. Period. What do you think is the source of your response?
    =====
    “However, I’ve had a couple one night stands with girls that fucked like complete porn stars (I’m talking about every single thing you see in porn being on the table). One girl even asked me to hit her in the face (I refrained).”

    I don’t need the details, thanks, but I wonder how it is possible for people to be so comfortable to do these extremely intimate acts, on the basis of knowing each other only a few hours.

    Can you explain this? I presume, you are able to be “like a porn star” as well, that they brought it up so easily with you.

  • Jackie

    Oops, I left out one word “incompatible”–

    I support people leaving incompatible relationships that you know will not work, rather than remaining in them and prolonging pain.

  • Mike C

    However, I’ve had a couple one night stands with girls that fucked like complete porn stars (I’m talking about every single thing you see in porn being on the table). One girl even asked me to hit her in the face (I refrained).

    Wow.

    I’m going to say this, judgement be damned.

    Doing that (being hit in the face during sex), can be fun and erotic sometimes. There, I said it.

    Double Wow.

    Zach, just curious, how crazy we talking here, ATM?

    Sassy, well….I can see why you definitely are going to have to have a guy who leans heavily alpha. The average beta isn’t going to be capable of a certain level of sexual aggressiveness. I’m cool with and enjoy some ass slapping and mild hair pulling (grab right at the base near the neck), but there is some stuff that I just couldn’t get into even if the woman really wanted it.

  • Iggles

    @ OffTheCuff:

    Ig: “But most of the time problems in the bedroom can be fixed by simply communicating your wants/needs/desires.”

    Are you really saying something emotionally charged as sex can be usually solved purely with rational discussion? Giggle.

    Ha! You got me to laugh! Ok, perhaps that was rather idealistic of me. (Then again, my Myer-Briggs type INFP is called “the idealist!”)

    You’re right. Discussion alone won’t change this. The willingness to see that there’s a problem and to want to fix it is important! I’ve read some horror stories on Athol’s site about some truly awful wives. I really feel bad for the husbands who married spiteful, selfish, small-minded women who don’t care about being a good partner. In my mind, I tend to think most women are like me and in my experience once I understand a relationship issue then I adjust my behavior accordingly to fix it. I’m all about harmony and cooperation in my private life in general.

    Ideally, yes, but in real life it is not quite that simple. People have sexual hangups, insecurities, and limits. Many women are afraid of having the lights on and can’t even orgasm! Now, if your boyfriend asks for something scarily kinky to you, are you 100% confident that you are going to smile sweetly and say “sorry, not interested!” and not feel one bit different, or is there the slightest chance you might be weirded out, turned off, or mad?

    Good points!

    ¡ay Dios mío! The lights thing is pretty silly, but I heard it before. Personally, it’s not something I can relate to! (We always have the lights on unless we woke up in the middle of the night!)

    As for the kinks question, we’re comfortable with each other so I don’t think there would be hesistancy on either side to bring it that up. That said, we’re both vanilla so it’s a moot question :lol:

    In an extremely well-ordered, sexual relationship, yes, this can work – like Athol Kay. Can you say you have that level of trust?

    Definitely.

    Everyone is tinged with a bit of dysfunction somewhere, and it all comes to a head in the bedroom.

    I can see that. However, being that intimacy is such a hot button issue it’s prudent for both men and women to be open about it with their partners. Be honest with how you feel and what is or isn’t working for you. If you don’t, you are weakening your relationship and you only have yourself to blame for your role in that.

  • Mike C

    Mint Condition = Plain Jane

  • Just1X

    “smart, charming, athletic, spontaneous, very sexual, wild at heart, spiritual, very assertive but also very sensitive, quiet with laid – back confidence kind of guys”

    Who do I get for 6/7 out of 11 (on an optimistic good day)? (no, no clues)

    that’s quite a list

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Sassy, well….I can see why you definitely are going to have to have a guy who leans heavily alpha. The average beta isn’t going to be capable of a certain level of sexual aggressiveness. I’m cool with and enjoy some ass slapping and mild hair pulling (grab right at the base near the neck), but there is some stuff that I just couldn’t get into even if the woman really wanted it.

    Yeah, I understand that. Not every man can handle me, in that department.

  • Mike C

    @Sassy

    In looking over your exchange with Hope and other regarding your inability to do some of the things on SW’s list or be “more of a kitten and less of a tigress,” I’d say don’t stress. ***You are who you are.*** That may b e be the average guy’s cup of tea, but there are still plenty of guys who like us independent, uneootional women.

    I’m going to push back on this, because I think this is bad advice for Sassy to take. Essentially, this is the same old “Just be yourself” and eventually someone will appreciate you for you.

    I think it is important to take someone’s advice in the context of their personal experience. You can correct me if I am wrong, but I recall you saying you were basically ready to give up prior to meeting your DH, and that was despite being physically attractive based on what you’ve said and your measurements. It all worked out for you in the end, but for a long time it wasn’t working for you. I’m not sure how good a strategy it is to essentially just rely on luck to strike at one point.

    I’ve said this before….seems to me women are generally more reluctant to do the sort of inward introspection and personality changes that guys in the Game community regularly undertake to make themselves more sexually attractive. I think there are ways to make changes that stay congruent with what you perceive as your core identity, but it is hard work and difficult. You have to ask hard questions about “Who am I” really, and what aspects of my personality, behavior, and communication style really have to be modified. It is easier to just say “fuck it”…I’m perfectly fine the way I am, and if nobody can appreciate that, then oh well.

  • Just1X

    @Sassy,

    I’ve changed my mind. Perhaps you shouldn’t rule out cage fighting / mma / WWE…

    I don’t really see where punching women in the face recreationally falls on the Alpha / Beta / Psycho scale, but it doesn’t float my boat recreationally

  • OffTheCuff

    J: “That may be the average guy’s cup of tea, but there are still plenty of guys who like us independent, uneootional women.”

    Depends on what you mean. If by “independent” you mean able to hold a job and support herself, and “unemotional” means can actually handle bad news and criticism without crying for days, then yes.

    If you mean independent in the sense of “I don’t need no man” and unemotional to mean “so emotionally suspicious and distant that he’s never quite sure what you think about him”, then, still yes.. but they won’t be looking for monogamy.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Sai. I have a couple of nephews. One dropped some of his hobbies to be big in a big-city theater scene.
    As to Red Army. It wasn’t a hobby. I had been an Infantry officer up through late ’71. Tried to stay in particular shape for the next five or six years until I figured I’d only be good as a replacement draft when the bad guys got to Rhode Island. Things change.
    WRT coin collecting, I tried to think of a hobby that no woman I ever met followed, to make a case by exaggeration.
    Civil War reenactment takes time, money, and commitment and is frequently a family activity. Be a shame if the woman in question had no interest at all at all. Deal-killer, matter of fact.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    I’ve changed my mind. Perhaps you shouldn’t rule out cage fighting / mma / WWE…

    I don’t really see where punching women in the face recreationally falls on the Alpha / Beta / Psycho scale, but it doesn’t float my boat recreationally

    Who said anything about punching? Perhaps I should clarify.

    When I mention being hit during sex, I’m talking about being slapped at most. Being punched during sex would throw me off my game and ruin the mood.

    I don’t want to be punched, but an open handed swat to the face or two can be quite an experience. It’s not for everyone, but I like it.

  • Just1X

    So…the cage fighting is off again? I’ll tell your agent.

    Yeah, fine There’s a world of difference between a punch in the face and a bit of slap and tickle. Have fun

  • Richard Aubrey

    Renee.
    It’s rude to tell somebody, “I already know that.” So your idea of nodding and listening is, at the least, polite, and considerably more in a relationship. You could say, as has been done to me, “Hey! You’re interested in that, too? This is terrific!” When that happened to me a couple of times, I lit right up. It was great.
    WRT cooking: Not too tough to learn the basics. However, it’s also not too tough to learn to do one or two things out of the ordinary really well. In fact, if they’re out of the ordinary, nobody knows if you’re doing it well or if that’s the way it’s supposed to taste. Hard to lose. But you can tell when groups assigning dishes ask you for it, or not.
    I knew a couple of particularly attractive women in college who were going with other guys and so I dealt with them as non-prospects wrt group projects we were involved in. They were, for tactical reasons somewhat standoffish. Indeed, one’s public self-presentation was “don’t even think it”. As if they had made the entirely prudent judgment that their day would be less hassle if they acted like this, as it would be when they dressed as frumps instead of in low-cut tank tops.
    However, once they trusted me, they unbent and, without being showing the slightest interest in dumping the BF, they became personable and cheerful and open. While that means I was friendzoned–fine with me since I had a GF whom I later married–the point is the contrast. Lord, it was like standing in front of a heat lamp.
    Example. A group with which I was associated was setting off to do a field project for half a summer in a tough area. Two-day drive. The woman assigned to ride with me was one of those mentioned in the preceding graf.
    We did not know each other very well. By mid-afternoon, she had apparently decided she was safe with me–a consideration given our destination–and from me, and when we stopped at a Lums–dating myself–she was all smiles, chatty, interesting. Relieved, I suppose.
    As I say, it is the contrast, and if a woman turns that contrast on a guy, he’s probably toast. Helpless.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Now I’ll respond, and some may get angry with me.

    I find this deeply disturbing. It really sets off alarm bells for me. I’m not judging you, I am very concerned. I’ll double down on my earlier suggestion that you seek counseling to deal with issues relating to growing up with an extremely dominant father.

    No worries Susan. I’m not upset, and I appreciate your concern.

    I think I’m just a woman who enjoys a bit of rough play. I know I’m not the only one.

    Where’s Herb when you need him? He may be able to explain it better than I can. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I think I’m just a woman who enjoys a bit of rough play. I know I’m not the only one.

      I don’t know a lot about BDSM – most of what I do know was gleaned in 50 Shades – yikes. However, sponsored sex weeks on college campuses often provide demonstrations and information, including re pain experiences. The use of nipple clamps, whips and other forms of pleasure inducing pain are highlighted.

      I have never heard of a dynamic where women want to get punched in the face. It’s so violent, so not controlled, that it strikes me as much more than rough play. The fact that it’s a behavior that mimics anger and agression is perhaps what sets it apart from other consensual acts. Now, it may be that a violent man turns you on. If so, I urge you to be very careful, because the men who will enjoy hitting your face are very likely to not want to stop there.

      In any case, I will ask you not to raise this subject again. I do not consider it a healthy or normal sexual behavior, and do not wish it described or discussed on HUS.

  • Just1X

    Curses! foiled again!

  • pvw

    Susan Walsh August 11, 2012 at 6:04 pm
    @Evilalpha

    You’re being rather fresh and snippity, young man. You’re accusing a highly intelligent and articulate History professor of hamstering. PVW is as reasonable and sane a woman as you will ever find, she’s happily married and always logical. This is not Heartiste. You have some good points to make, and you’ll be more successful in having them heard if you lose the “battle of the sexes” mentality.

    My reply:

    Thanks, Susan, for the support.

    And it is funny, I didn’t even think there was any bone of contention between us.

    As I thought about the topic further, your ideas on being a goddess, losing inhibitions, being open sexually, all that is good and important–I know the husband was glad that I was open and excited to being with him sexually, even though I was less experienced for my age (at the time we began dating), so as I said, there was never any problems there.

    It is funny, I once said to him that if he knew me prior to the time he took a break from dating, he might not have wanted to date me because he was looking for str women for ltr strategies and expected sex immediately. He had to think about that one, because I was correct. He changed strategy and got the kind of relationship he wanted–with me. So he valued my discretion and willingness to work at emotional intimacy before sexual intimacy.

    But I did wonder, though, as I read the post, about women who might be interested and open but just not experienced, to what extent will their more experienced partners be willing to work with them?

    It is a list of 25, what if she hits 24, but at this 25th, she is not skilled in the way he might be used to. I think Zach gave an example of this–he liked the sex with his girlfriend, but she didn’t give good blow jobs. Now that didn’t lead to the breakup, as far as I understand it.

    Yet, sexual incompatibility can lead to breakups, and some of the other posters were chatting about this. Someone else mentioned that high compatibility is good enough, ie., 24 out of 25, should work; so someone like that might be willing to stick around?

    I think Love Maker had some insight on this. Perhaps with the rise of porn culture, regular and inexperienced women might experience some disadvantages? Yet, men say they want more inexperienced women, and I don’t see a problem with that. I just see some contradictions between the two. I hope, though, that for less experienced women (the 80%) seeking boyfriends, they are manageable.

  • J

    You can correct me if I am wrong, but I recall you saying you were basically ready to give up prior to meeting your DH, and that was despite being physically attractive based on what you’ve said and your measurements. It all worked out for you in the end, but for a long time it wasn’t working for you.

    That’s true, Mike, although my circumstances were somewhat different from Sassy’s. I came from a very dysfunctional home. I probably would have found someone good for me a lot earlier had I been less distrustful of stable men. I know how crazy that sounds, but when I got taken home to meet a functional family, my reaction tended to be “Are Ward, June and the Beav for real here?” I tended to find good people too good to be true. I was a deeply cynical person.

    My real stroke of luck was in finding a guy who came from as much dysfunction as I did but still wanted a stable family life. We had both the same goals and the same demons, and somehow that gelled. I never had to change basic personality traits like being independent or less emotional than the average woman. My DH actually like those things and I was abe to “just be myself.”

    If you mean independent in the sense of “I don’t need no man” and unemotional to mean “so emotionally suspicious and distant that he’s never quite sure what you think about him”, then, still yes.. but they won’t be looking for monogamy.

    No, that’s not what I mean, OTC. There’s a big difference between not wanting or enjoying a relationship with a man (which I do immensely) and feeling that you need a guy to survive (which I don’t). My MIL was the type of woman who could not survive without a man and would compromise herself and kids in all sorts of ways to keep one after she and FIL divorced. DH has no respect for that and likes my independence, but I can’t imagine that he feels our relationship is not vitally important to me emotionally.

    As to emotionality, I tend to be cool-headed and a thinker as opposed to someone who wears her emotions on her sleeve. I would say that my DH realizes that still waters run deep and is also one of the few people who is privy to my deepest stuff. He realizes how much trust it takes for me to let people in, so I guess he feels complimented by my trust. I have a similar feeling about him. Additionally, he really doesn’t care for gushy women. My MIL emoted all over the place, but none of it meant anything.

  • Abbot

    “Yet, men say they want more inexperienced women, and I don’t see a problem with that. I just see some contradictions between the two”

    On sooo many levels, a man is waaay better off custom training his woman over the next say thirty years than relying on any other method

  • J

    I find this deeply disturbing. It really sets off alarm bells for me. I’m not judging you, I am very concerned. I’ll double down on my earlier suggestion that you seek counseling to deal with issues relating to growing up with an extremely dominant father.

    Sassy, I would cosign this. The desire to be independent, opposed by an equally strong desire to have a man dominate, discipline or control you sounds to me as though you simultaneous want control and fear being out of control. You may be using guys to exert contol over where you should be exerting self-control. That may keep you from becoming the self-actualized individual I think you want to be.

  • J

    I seriously do not understand women who don’t give blowjobs. Talk about low hanging fruit!

    BJs are a very intimate thing in my book. I can understand saving that for someone special.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    Sassy, I would cosign this. The desire to be independent, opposed by an equally strong desire to have a man dominate, discipline or control you sounds to me as though you simultaneous want control and fear being out of control. You may be using guys to exert contol over where you should be exerting self-control. That may keep you from becoming the self-actualized individual I think you want to be.

    Interesting. There may be something to this actually.

    Hmmmmm. I’m going to chew on this for a bit.

  • J

    Glad I could be of help, Sassy.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    As to not feeling some of the stuff on the list, I can tell you that when you feel real love for a man, his well being will be as important to you as your own.

    You are assuming that she has the capacity of feeling it and is just a matter of “finding the right guy” she could be too broken inside to feel it? And before it looks like I’m being mean there was a time that lasted for around 5 years, that I was literally in an emotional coma. I couldn’t feel anything. No love, no fear not true joy. A person close to me was murdered and his body was found in a cave in pieces and I felt absolutely nothing. Even though I came from a more or less functional home I managed to absorve all the bad experiences of my friends growing up around me (I mentioned my high empathy add my memory and is a recipe for not believing in love ever again) and I created a HUGE emotional shield for myself I could had meet the right man back then and still not had felt anything it took me a while to wake up and fix it. So I would say that Sassy is better off getting a professional evaluation and/or sometime to actually find out if her “shield” is born or made out of fear before thinking that she “is perfect the way she is”, at the very least so she can say in the future “At least I did my best effort”, YMMV.

    I’m old enough to recall the tail end of that period. Those mags offered “man pleasing” advise about how to land a husband and keep him faithful. The onus for building a relationship was on the woman. In many ways it still is.

    Well the majority of divorces are initiated by women (and this is true even on lesbian couples that break up more than homosexual male couples) so I this is not a believe but another red pill, YMMV

    The average beta isn’t going to be capable of a certain level of sexual aggressiveness. I’m cool with and enjoy some ass slapping and mild hair pulling (grab right at the base near the neck), but there is some stuff that I just couldn’t get into even if the woman really wanted it.

    Mmm is it me or you called yourself Beta? Just curious.

    I’m not sure how good a strategy it is to essentially just rely on luck to strike at one point.

    I got a lot of crap a few months for telling the girls here, that if they didn’t got married something in their strategy, or the lack of it, was at fault. I sustain this any woman that is not getting married unless she lives on amazon island is because something she did or didn’t do. No matter how wonderful and marriable another woman sees her she had something that turned men off or she just didn’t accepted a proposal or missed the chance to accept it for whatever reason. Luck is really not that blind, specially with women, YMMV again.

  • Abbot

    “Neither were on the to do lists of our grandparents ”

    Quite a few things were not on the list. For instance, grandpa needn’t concern himself with potentially getting tangled up with a woman prolific as a prostitute merely by, well, avoiding prostitutes. He would have cringed and wretched if he knew that his grandson would need to use his passport in order to avoid be burdened by such a pathetic scenario.

  • JP

    @Ramble:

    “Any psychologist worth his salt can make almost anyone feel inferior if they really wanted to.

    I am not trying to make some built in excuse for those looking to have a pity party, but our emotions are what they are for a reason.”

    The defense to the feeling of inferiority is to embrace solipsism, at least temporarily. Essentially, you take the position that you are the only one who is Real and that all others are Shadow. Instant infinite superiority.

    Granted, you are disconnecting yourself from external reality and essentially utilizing conscious self-delusion, but it works.

    As I recall, some Buddhist imports were good at this, but they took the position that even they were Shadow, so to speak. I remember reading about one guy who was quite sadistic having entered this state.

    So yes, your emotions are there for a reason.

    And sometimes your emotions are there to protect other people from you.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    Excellent post, Susan, arguably your best.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    This post is wonderful, Susan! Thanks! :)

  • Kathy

    “if a woman doesn’t initiate the subject of frequency, some way or somehow she’s not a keeper in my book.”

    Hmmmm, EA… When a couple truly love one another and are totally committed, (in my case married) I don’t think discussion of frequency is necessary.

    It just happens. Spontaneity and surprise can be a great turn on.

    If there is a golden rule here, then I would say it is… Never knock back your spouse when they initiate sex.. Not unless you are dying!!!. :)

    I have never knocked my husband back in 16 years of marriage, same for him, with regards to me.

    This has a flow on effect because the more a woman has sex with her husband the more that she wants it! :D

    Use it or lose it. Ain’t that the truth.

    In the end it all comes down to how much a woman loves and cares for her man, because she will, herself get great pleasure from pleasing him if she truly loves him, and wants hm to be happy.

    If you marry a woman who thinks that you are the ‘ best thing since sliced bread,’ then you are ‘in like Flynn.’ ;)

  • szopen

    @evilaalpha
    Seems to me that you think that “hamstering” is eomthing only woman do. That;s not true. This is universal charactersisation of human mind. ALl people think like that:: and you are too, prime example. If somehting does not fit your world, then you find your own explanations, which would bend this into your own worldview. Males have their own hamsters too, and “getting a red pill” cannot make you get rid of your own hamsters.
    This is not discoveredby PUA community or manospehre – the fact is known by psychology for a very long time. We all have our biases and desires and a strong wish to make those desires look rational.

    As for girls, remember, do this list only for guys who are really worth it and who are good material for LTR. Players usually are not good material for LTR and therefore, you should not follow their advices because they will advise you how to satisfy them, and this is not the same as how to keep them (moreover, it may not be possible – my mother used to say, that anyone who lives alone for too long, or who have too many partners, is a lost case for a marriage).

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    JP…”The defense to the feeling of inferiority is to embrace solipsism, at least temporarily. Essentially, you take the position that you are the only one who is Real and that all others are Shadow. Instant infinite superiority.”

    That is a very interesting analysis.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    When Sassy said that she prefers Alphas, she clearly was not bluffing.

  • evilalpha

    @Zach

    So you’re partially right, that tape was playing as a result of a bit of sexual boredom.

    Actually I’m more than partially right looking at your description. My quote about the right kind of “some” implicitly includes what sex , where sex, when sex, not just how much sex.

  • evilalpha

    @Susan
    You’re being rather fresh and snippity, young man. You’re accusing a highly intelligent and articulate History professor of hamstering. PVW is as reasonable and sane a woman as you will ever find, she’s happily married and always logical. This is not Heartiste. You have some good points to make, and you’ll be more successful in having them heard if you lose the “battle of the sexes” mentality.

    Susan, that’s a gross mischaracterization. I have a battle the hamster mentality. I don’t have a battle of the sexes mentality which is why I offered sooo much advice to Sassy… and she accepted it.

    My problem with your esteemed history professor is that she was indeed hamstering…just like you may have been in mis remembering the key details of the Zack story. Thankfully Zach came in and clarified that both of you were off.

    So lets recap. It was not Zack’s ex girlfriend’s lack of experience (pvw’s hamster excuse), nor his 25 (your “explanation”) but her lack of interest in blow jobs and mixing it up. Blow jobs and mixing it up…low hanging fruit indeed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      Re Recap, from the original post, I think I should clarify to set the record straight.

      http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/07/relationshipstrategies/can-a-manwhore-ever-really-settle-down-even-if-he-wants-to/

      Also, while the sex is good, I find myself increasingly comparing it some of the wild and varied sex I had when I was single. Even though she’s hot, I find myself comparing her physically to some of the other hot girls I slept with while single, not even because they’re hotter, but because they’re DIFFERENT.

      And more in the comments:

      As for sex, the issue with having a high N count is I have so many clips in the “greatest hits” reel in my head to compare to. And whatever was going on outside the bed, those hits started to intrude on my thoughts more as time went on. She was good in bed, and had a great body and pretty face, but thoughts such as “well she doesn’t do this as well as X” or “I wish her ass was as nice as Y” would start to come in from time to time.

      …I am a bit concerned about my ability to be sexually satisfied by one woman, but the women I’ve slept with before aren’t un-f*cking themselves. My memory’s not going to wipe. And it’s not as bad as I made it out to be. Yeah, after a while I would fantasize about some of the other women I’d slept with, but that’s it, it was just a fantasy.

      Part of my response:

      The more women a man has had sex with, the lower the odds that he can be sexually gratified by one woman. Ever.

      I. You’re likely to experience a more dramatic drop in your physical attraction to a woman after having sex with her. Evolutionary psychologist Martie Haselton explains that high-count men lose even more attraction for their mate after sex.

      III. The Paradox of Choice: Missed Opportunities

      The primary reason that people are less satisfied the more partners they have is that they have more opportunities to recall or imagine greater sexual satisfaction in prior or future sexual encounters.

      When people are faced with having to choose one option out of many desirable choices, they will begin to consider hypothetical trade-offs. Their options are evaluated in terms of missed opportunities instead of the opportunity’s potential. …One of the downsides of making trade-offs is it alters how we feel about the decisions we face; afterwards, it affects the level of satisfaction we experience from our decision.

      (Note: II. was the BYU study, which is described in the OP.)

  • evilalpha

    @Kathy
    Hmmmm, EA… When a couple truly love one another and are totally committed, (in my case married) I don’t think discussion of frequency is necessary.
    It just happens. Spontaneity and surprise can be a great turn on.
    If there is a golden rule here, then I would say it is… Never knock back your spouse when they initiate sex.. Not unless you are dying!!!

    Your sexual attitude sounds awesome, but you are severely projecting! If you were “typical” you’d have divorced him 8 years ago. So listen and learn, ok.

    1. Today’s hoard of feminist indoctrinated women view anything other than “enthusiastic consent” as rape which translates that “not unless you are dying” to “not unless you are dripping wet”.
    2. Women don’t sexually initiate nearly as much as men. And imbalanced by feminism may even prefer to be dominated.
    3. Men are way hornier than women…and porn is really accessible.

    In 2012 frequency definitely needs to be discussed!

  • Abbot

    “Today’s hoard of feminist indoctrinated women view anything other than “enthusiastic consent” as rape which translates that “not unless you are dying” to “not unless you are dripping wet”

    Then why aren’t feminists reclassifying all one night stands as rape?

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Off-topic….since there are quite a few Tom Wolfe fans here…he has a new book coming out this fall:

    http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Tom-Wolfe-s-New-Novel-Coming-Out-at-Last

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Oct 23!

      The countdown begins today!

      I hope he comes to Boston on book tour. I’ll be first in line.

  • Courtley

    @Abbot

    “Then why aren’t feminists reclassifying all one night stands as rape?”

    They’re not! :D
    Regardless of what MRA-types like to say.

  • Abbot
  • Abbot

    “Then why aren’t feminists reclassifying all one night stands as rape?”

    “They’re not!”

    Then lack of “enthusiastic consent” is not rape. But the public already knows that

  • Jackie

    @Susan, EA

    Susan, could you please delete my posts to “evil alpha”? I disagree with him, but insulting him is wrong, unbecoming and lowers the tone of your blog. I am sorry to have lost my temper and regret my outburst.

    EA, I apologize for calling you names. I confess you have found my soft spot:

    If anyone says one little word against my sweet dad, I will fly at them and peck like a small, furious dove. Maybe someday you will have a daughter who will defend you online as well! ;)

    As for justifying cheating, you have found my other spot. I truly hope that you are never in the position of being cheated on, then having someone justify it to you.

    An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, as you may have heard.
    I

  • J

    If anyone says one little word against my sweet dad, I will fly at them and peck like a small, furious dove. Maybe someday you will have a daughter who will defend you online as well!

    As a parent, I found it very sweet that you defended your dad, but ridiculous that you needed to do so. Insulting the parents of other people is schoolyard behavior, not something adults should have to deal with.

  • Courtley

    And there’s always a few dudes bringin’ the lolz on HUS. Thanks, EvilAlpha! Our real-life experience with actual real men is, I think I can safely say, far more positive than what we run into online. Hence OUR lack of contempt for the opposite sex. Just high-roading it like always. :D

    But seriously, Susan, I just wanted to pop in and say this is great, I’ve been on vacation and not online too much lately but I would love to see more LTR-related advice on HUS.

    I especially liked #18, I think that gets overlooked a lot and a lot of young women become a bit insecure in the early stages of commitment with a man they really care about.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @J
    FWIW, she said something along the lines of “My dad calls people like you worthless punks,” before he said anything about her dad.

    @Jackie
    Don’t take that as me attacking you, just pointing out the order of events… it takes a big person to apologize after losing their temper. Kudos.

  • J

    @david

    Cool. Thanx!

    Then lack of “enthusiastic consent” is not rape.

    I see this as situational. Does a married man have to wait for “enthusiastic consent” every time? No sexual desire in a marriage ebbs and flows. When you live with someone day-to-day, you see them at the best and worst. A husband isn’t picking up from her own apartment a woman who is dressed to nines and looking forward to a night of love after a fancy dinner out. He might be waking up in the middle of night next to woman with red nose who is attempting to sleep off a cold. She might be willing to have sex but not necessarily enthusiastically–but that’s OK because he can reciprocate later when she is more in the mood. There is a level of comfort between them in which they both know that things even out eventually.

    OTOH, a guy who has picked a stranger in a bar for fun and games really should make sure he and the stranger are on the same page and that she is consenting with full knowledge and enthusiasm. There is too much room for misunderstanding later.

    Obviously, there will be variation between those two extremes. The lack of enthusiam a guy can overcome depends on how just how close he and his partner are.

  • J

    FWIW, she said something along the lines of “My dad calls people like you worthless punks,” before he said anything about her dad.

    I missed that. Thanks.

  • Jackie

    @JH

    Hi Jimmy,
    Thanks for the kudos!

    And I don’t take it as attacking me, though you are inaccurate:

    My dad thinks cheaters are “gutless wonders”– cheaters, as a class of people, not criticizing EA specifically. For all we know, Evil Alpha may be pure as the driven snow!

    I said *justifying* cheating makes one a passive-aggressive coward (and I agree with my dad’s assessment of cheaters as well). Because it’s a two-way street: Once you justify cheating, you are also justifying being cheated upon– I doubt any guy here supports that!

  • Jackie

    @J
    Hi J,

    Please see my above comment re: accuracy. Thanks! :)

  • evilalpha

    “Then why aren’t feminists reclassifying all one night stands as rape?”

    They’re not! 
Regardless of what MRA-types like to say

    Yea. cuz MRA paranoia created this policy…
    http://thefire.org/article/8138.html

    Anyway, feminists aren’t reclassifying one night stands as rape because they don’t have the juice to get away with it. It’s much easier to make the nebulous “drunken sex” et al. into crimes against women, than to fail shooting for the moon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Anyway, feminists aren’t reclassifying one night stands as rape because they don’t have the juice to get away with it.

      Feminists are caught between a rock and a hard place re ONSs. On one hand, they want women to feel empowered by “having sex like men,” which will eradicate the sexual double standard, in their view. At the same time, women generally don’t have ONSs without getting drunk first, which makes consent highly problematic and legally speaking, impossible. So sex-positive feminists are staunchly supporting hookup culture while bemoaning the increase of nonconsensual sex.

      This just proves that women cannot have sex like men, because when those two “guys” disagree, the stronger “guy” is going to prevail if he chooses to force the issue. And that’s going to be the guy with a penis. I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped, but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.

  • J

    @Ana

    You are assuming that she has the capacity of feeling it and is just a matter of “finding the right guy” she could be too broken inside to feel it?

    I don’t feel that I know Sassy well enough to venture an opinion on that.

    And before it looks like I’m being mean there was a time that lasted for around 5 years, that I was literally in an emotional coma. I couldn’t feel anything. No love, no fear not true joy. A person close to me was murdered and his body was found in a cave in pieces and I felt absolutely nothing.

    Oh, Ana, I’m so sorry that you went through that. I know a few people who were close to a murder victim. I can’t imagine their pain

    J: I’m old enough to recall the tail end of that period. Those mags offered “man pleasing” advise about how to land a husband and keep him faithful. The onus for building a relationship was on the woman. In many ways it still is.

    A: Well the majority of divorces are initiated by women (and this is true even on lesbian couples that break up more than homosexual male couples) so I this is not a believe but another red pill, YMMV

    I wasn’t talking about real life now as much as I’m talking about the way those magazines used to portray relationships back then. “Husband not paying attention to you?” Meet him at the door with his slippers. “Husband cheating?” Use these tips to keep him faithful. “Ring around the collar?” Here’s 10 ways to get cleaner laundry. No women’s magazine in the 40s, 50s or early 60s would have advised a woman to tell her husband to wash his neck and keep his dick in his pants.

  • J

    I just read it, Jackie. Thanks for clarifying.

    Your dad is right about cheating. Bringing a 3rd party into one’s relationship troubles is cowardly. People are much better off confronting their problems and then deciding the future of the relationship based on the results of the confrontation than they are using an extra person as a pressure valve. It further harms the relationship and the third party as well.

  • Jimmy Hendricks

    @Jackie
    You’re right, I did paraphrase it wrong. Here was the real quote:

    Sorry but cheating is cowardly as hell in my book. My dad called those kind of people “gutless wonders.”

    Seeing it justified it doesn’t make me think “evil alpha” as much as “passive aggressive coward.”

    My point still stands that EA’s attacks weren’t unprovoked.

    Re: cheating, mate poaching, etc.

    The sad reality is, in today’s environment of serial monogamy, combat dating, and no fault divorce, there’s really no such thing as 100% true commitment anymore. Anybody can change their mind and bail on the relationship whenever they feel like it without penalty.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jimmy

      The sad reality is, in today’s environment of serial monogamy, combat dating, and no fault divorce, there’s really no such thing as 100% true commitment anymore. Anybody can change their mind and bail on the relationship whenever they feel like it without penalty.

      I disagree. Having an out is immaterial when the commitment is 100%. Wedding vows provide a 100% true commitment, it’s just that many people violate or reneg on that promise.

      It’s possible to stay unhappily married and feel zero commitment or love for one’s spouse. The commitment may be to the children, the financial support, fear of change, etc. What we’re seeing today is increased dissolution of marriages where the commitment has eroded.

  • J

    Re the Antioch policy linked in #436–

    That’s what happens when people fvck strangers. You need rules to explain that sleeping people can’t consent. The privilege of being able to rub your dick against a sleeping women who will roll over and smile comes with a relationship.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t feel that I know Sassy well enough to venture an opinion on that.

    But you did felt the need to tell her that there was nothing wrong with being unemotional, and that with the right man she will be…Why?

    Oh, Ana, I’m so sorry that you went through that. I know a few people who were close to a murder victim. I can’t imagine their pain

    Thank you for the sympathies, it was really hard later on, it always is.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @J
    “Bringing a 3rd party into one’s relationship troubles is cowardly. People are much better off confronting their problems and then deciding the future of the relationship based on the results of the confrontation than they are using an extra person as a pressure valve. It further harms the relationship and the third party as well.”

    Spot-on. My sentiments exactly. And when the cheating party finally ends the troubled relationship and the third party becomes the second party…? With that person no longer serving as the bad relationship’s pressure release valve, will the new second party really be needed in the first party’s life anymore?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    With that person no longer serving as the bad relationship’s pressure release valve, will the new second party really be needed in the first party’s life anymore?

    Statistically speaking is rare that the cheaters actually make it, they are missing a key element in their relationship: the spouse. Also some people like the “thrill” of maybe getting caught so this people will be cheating again on their new partner as some point. So cheating is a bad, bad choice 99% of the time for all the reasons stated and then some, YMMV.

  • Abbot

    “That’s what happens when people fvck strangers.”

    As enabled by the gatekeepers

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Jimmy Hendricks
    “Anybody can change their mind and bail on the relationship whenever they feel like it without penalty.”

    Lack of family involvement in relationships may have some role in this as well. Mobile and isolated young professionals (including myself) don’t ave to answer to any relatives for their actions.

    I remember when my older sister’s first serious boyfriend dumped her. It was a family affair. My grandma, aunts, and mom demanded an explanation and got one. The family felt “dumped” because we had embraced him as part of the family.

    Now days, introversion has a stronger voice, we are more prone to relocate away from our home towns for school and jobs, and we can demand that relatives stay out of our business.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: BJs and repeated sexual gratification. During the dot.com bubble, a pair of guys who called themselves “Smith” and “Doe” wrote a darkly funny insider’s guide to male sexual fantasy. The title was “What Men Don’t Want Women to Know” and I’d recommend it as perhaps the ultimate SMP red pill for women. It is brutally honest.

    Here is a brief sampling that pertains to the current topic:

    “A man spends his life in one of two basic states: LOADED and UNLOADED…Smith and Doe define the loaded state as the period which begins 24 hours after his last orgasm and extends to his next orgasm…The sad truth: as a creature aspiring to happiness, a man spends the bulk of his waking day trying, in one fashion or another, to reach the UNLOADED state…

    “…The penis/gun analogy dictates that you should repeat the following principle over and over in your mind like a mantra: AN UNLOADED PENIS POSES NO DANGER…*never* send a man into a target-rich environment in the LOADED state…

    “An UNLOADED man is a trustworthy man. A man is content when UNLOADED. If you are the person who causes him to reach that state, he will reflect his appreciation…very much like a dog, whose driving need to eat is the reason it treats you like God, your man’s insatiable need to UNLOAD is the principal reason he treats you with love and respect…

    “Everything (in dating and marriage) revolves around the ease of male access to orgasm while being able to tolerate you afterward…”

    “You see, if a man wants blowjobs, and you don’t do blowjobs, your man is not going to *not* going to decide he no longer needs blowjobs. He isn’t doing this to spite you, rather, it is simply not his decision to make…”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Lack of family involvement in relationships may have some role in this as well. Mobile and isolated young professionals (including myself) don’t ave to answer to any relatives for their actions.

    Yeah not having a family around to “respond to” is also a problem. But I think families are also shy of “meddling” I have a couple of friends with young adults appalled by certain choices “dating people that are not that good for them, not trying to marry, or dumping a good guy over a minor quibble” that feel incapable of saying anything because “is not cool, it will embarrass them” and “I don’t want to be that type of parent”, so there is that.

  • evilalpha

    That’s what happens when people fvck strangers. You need rules to explain that sleeping people can’t consent. The privilege of being able to rub your dick against a sleeping women who will roll over and smile comes with a relationship.

    Cuz like feminist sex regulations are meant only for strangers.

  • Ramble

    Bastiat, they should have called themselves Smith and Wesson.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    LOL! Yes

  • Sassy6519

    Hey everyone!

    I just arrived in Orlando Florida for the week! I’ll try to keep up with the threads, but my academic residency will probably keep me pretty busy.

    I also wanted to thank everyone for your support and advice. I’ve still been thinking about what’s been discussed, and I do appreciate all the contributions.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    No worries Susan. You won’t hear anymore from me about that topic. Thanks for letting me know.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Reading my comment, it sounds harsher than I intended. Thanks for always being unflappable.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Wanted to share this quote I read on Facebook:

    “If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself, if you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation.”

    Now as usual in Facebook quotes, this is attributed erroneously to Lao Tzu but was actually written 500 years later by another Taoist Wang Fou…is still a good quote.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Bastiat, #437

    That is certainly eye-opening. Perhaps that oft-used cheater’s excuse “but she didn’t mean anything to me” should be rephrased as “I used her to unload because you wouldn’t let me unload on/in you.”

    I’d be willing to bet that in polygamous marriages, the first wife sees the second or additional wives as load bearers. I’d also bet if more mistresses knew they were being unloaded onto, their egos would rapidly deflate.

    @Susan
    “I have never heard of a dynamic where women want to get punched in the face. It’s so violent, so not controlled, that it strikes me as much more than rough play.”

    I see sex along a spectrum, from beast to human. Beast sex is confrontational, where the male or top abuses/humiliates the female or bottom. Choking, cursing at the other person (“you filthy blankety blank!”), and face slaps fall into this category. Human sex is more like partner dancing (salsa, tango, synch swimming, etc.). I skew heavily toward human sex. I can’t stand jackhammers and only feel that a slap on the cheek is appropriate as a spirited response, or cue to stay in rhythm.

    Beast sex can be dangerous. Consenting partners have the right to engage, but as far as offering guidance and advice for it, I’ve got nothin.

  • Abbot

    “The primary reason that people are less satisfied the more partners they have is that they have more opportunities to recall or imagine greater sexual satisfaction in prior or future sexual encounters. ”

    Then when the plain Janes and plain Jims of the same league finally meet up chances are one of them is going to be wrestling with that. Which one is more likely?

  • Royale W. Cheese

    By “cheek” I mean butt cheek. Fir me, a strike to the face would switch things from sex to rape in my mind, and at that point dude would be catapulted out of bed in seconds.

  • evilalpha

    Reading my comment, it sounds harsher than I intended. Thanks for always being unflappable.

    Yes, it is harsh.

    Sassy wrote this.
    “When I mention being hit during sex, I’m talking about being slapped at most. Being punched during sex would throw me off my game and ruin the mood”

    Basically Sassy wants to be manhandled…which doesn’t even count as BDSM ( altogether in a different category). Common female sexual desires such face slapping, ass spanking, wrist and ankle grabbing, and being pounded is not something I would have expected you to be at least tolerant of even if not into it yourself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      I missed Sassy’s disavowal of punching, which I guess was an interpretation by Just1X. Here’s what she said first:

      Doing that (being hit in the face during sex), can be fun and erotic sometimes.

      This amendation seems less aggressive:

      2. I don’t want to be punched, but an open handed swat to the face or two can be quite an experience. It’s not for everyone, but I like it.

      From “hit in the face” to “a slap or two” strikes me as materially different, and I was obviously not alone. Just1X, Mike C and J were also taken aback.

      Common female sexual desires such face slapping, ass spanking, wrist and ankle grabbing, and being pounded is not something I would have expected you to be at least tolerant of even if not into it yourself.

      First, I do not believe all of those behaviors are common female sexual desires. To the extent that they are more common than they used to be, I attribute that directly to porn.

      1. being pounded: fucked hard, every woman likes that sometimes.

      2. Wrist and ankle grabbing: again, very intense, I would think most people’s sex lives include these

      3. Ass spanking: ubiquitious in porn, something men expect during sex, many women comply and enjoy this. I would note that most women are not into pain – I am talking about a playful slap here, not something that would leave a mark or bruise.

      4. Face slapping: Not common even in mainstream porn. Of all the behaviors listed, the one most likely to occur in real domestic abuse.

      This raises an interesting question – when do consensual acts that cause injury become improper or illegal? If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?

      For the record, Sassy and one male commenter here have said they enjoy being choked during sex. Asphyxiation to heighten orgasm is a well-known masturbation tactic among males, and from time to time men accidentally commit suicide this way, e.g. David Carradine. However, to my knowledge, there is no similar form of female masturbation. This behavior is clearly driven by male desire and demands during sex.

      I haven’t seen any research on this, but I hypothesize that these behaviors, especially slapping and choking, are generally practiced by the most promiscuous women (along with rimming and casual anal sex). Sassy is not promiscuous, so she is unusual in this regard.

      You are new here, but based on Sassy’s past stories of her father (bad news, alpha), I strongly suspect a connection. That’s the last I’ll say on the matter, especially since Sassy has just shared she’ll be busy over the next few days and may not be online.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Re: feminists and defining rape

    I think feminists are doing a great disservice to victims of violent rape by attempting to lump regrettable sex into the same category as aggressive rape.

    I think their efforts to do this might be inspired by the fact that in many cultures, victims of rape, or at least female participants in non-welcomed yet non-forced sex, are considered whores, flat out. Feminists are pushing back against the idea that any time a penis enters a woman (welcomed or not) she gains a point on the whore scorecard (aka female N count).

    The feminist push-back might be meant to defend unfairly judged women and girls, but it isn’t the smartest strategy, IMO. I think that women should be encouraged to be selective and to try to keep the N count low, and that men should be encouraged to calm down extremist views of women’s N counts.

  • VD

    I’ve been hesitant to nourish my feminine side (I know I have one somewhere), because I have negative ideas about femininity. I’ve considered it to be a form of weakness, and I’ve thought that it’s beneath me.

    Pride.

    Not only do I have a hard time understanding and accepting femininity, due to my ENTP profile, but I also avoid opening up to men because I fear being hurt. As I’ve stated before, I don’t have many positive experiences with men. I put a wall around my heart to keep myself from getting hurt, but the same wall keeps good men out as well. I don’t open up, and men decide not to open up to me as a result. I’m shooting myself in the foot, basically.

    Fear.

    Sassy, your issues are pretty straightforward. You think of yourself as superior to other, more feminine women, which is why your pride rebels at the idea of “lowering” yourself to behave/become more like them. But, speaking as an astoundingly arrogant individual, pride is truly worthless. About all it is good for is irritating other people. Don’t let it get in the way of pursuing love and marriage.

    As for the emotional cowardice, well, pain is life. If you live life without risking getting hurt, you will live without feeling. Even the most powerful joys are bittersweet because even while one is experiencing them, one knows they cannot last forever. There are moments in my children’s lives that I would cheerfully murder a thousand people with my bare hands to be able to experience one more time, and yet even as I was experiencing them, I felt the pain of knowing it would have to end.

    You’re living life as a chrysalis. Break out, spread your wings, and learn to fly. It’s worth it, even if you crash from time to time.

  • July 16th

    ” I have never heard of a dynamic where women want to get punched in the face. It’s so violent, so not controlled, that it strikes me as much more than rough play. The fact that it’s a behavior that mimics anger and agression is perhaps what sets it apart from other consensual acts. Now, it may be that a violent man turns you on. If so, I urge you to be very careful, because the men who will enjoy hitting your face are very likely to not want to stop there.”

    As a society we have to ask ourselves why violent porn, whether of a sexual nature or not, is so coveted by so many. Eckert Tolle says the desire for such originates in what he calls the pain body. Its not healthy. Normal? Normal just means something that has been normalized and if there are millions of viewers, well then its “normal”. Normal does not mean healthy. Normal does not mean nothing is wrong. Its wrong.

    “If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself, if you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation.”

    Yes. Why as a society are we so opposed to the eliminating suffering and so in favor of perpetuating it? Why are we so opposed to light and so pro darkness?

    Something is wrong with us. Very wrong. And that goes for sex week if they are teaching students about BDSM. Education is meant to free us, not bind us, literally!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @July 16th

      Thanks for your comment. As an Eckhart Tolle fan, I appreciate your linking requested violent acts to the pain body.

      I also think your point about “normal” is important. There is much that is considered normal today that I write against on this blog, because I feel that it is detrimental to individuals and to society.

      It is considered normal to put physical intimacy in front of emotional intimacy, but that does not mean it is healthy or good.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    …if you are unfamiliar with the rape victim = whore dynamic, the movie City of God (set in Brazil) has an example. After one character’s girlfriend (presumably a virgin) was beat and raped by the antagonist, while the character was forced to watch, that character discussed with a friend what should be done now that the antagonist had “turned his girlfriend into a whore.” I also remember hearing about post-disaster violence and crime in Asia, where one unfortunate outcome was suicide and depression amongst women who had been “turned into whores” after they were raped.

    Not to say that this the case in the US and other Western countries, but just pointing out something that feminists use to support their own side, albeit out of context. It’s kind of sad that feminists are busy waging a sexual revolution against men from cultures where the most pressing injustices are not really being committed. In the mean time, harsh oppression is continuing to occur in the toughest battle grounds.

  • Just1X

    @Susan, could be my bad.

    My recollection is (but some comments have been deleted, so may or may not still be true in the record)(And maybe it was a semi-senior-moment (not quite old enough for pure senior-moment):
    a statement prior to Sassy’s mentioning a punch to the face and more prosaic slap and tickle
    Sassy said something along the lines of enjoying stuff that was beyond vanilla.
    I put the two together, surprised (as you say), which is not necessarily what Sassy meant at the time (and indeed she denies it being what she meant)
    Then Sassy set the record straight on the extremity of what she meant.

    So, I could have been wrong about the preceding comment (that I can’t find in a quick search), AND/OR I was definitely wrong in putting that interpretation on what Sassy said. I certainl don’t recall Sassy saying that she liked the extreme stuff explicitly.

    mea possibly culpa, however, I’ve gotta say that the comments remained sane and sensible on the subject (however it got started). I like that about this site.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just

      No worries. I find that one source of confusion is the ever changing cast of characters here. I’ve “known” you and Sassy for ages, and we’ve all been on many threads together. Evilalpha is brand new, so he doesn’t have the benefit of many past conversations that may inform current responses. Misunderstandings are bound to occur. Also, especially on the weekend, I have less time, am more likely to skim, and so may miss something here or there.

      I do believe that Sassy is the best I’ve ever seen at receiving constructive feedback without getting defensive. She’s remarkable that way. She’d make an excellent blogger.

  • Abbot

    “sex-positive feminists are staunchly supporting hookup culture while bemoaning the increase of nonconsensual sex.”

    Then their new bitchin slogan is “all sex with strangers is rape”

    Sad as that is, nearly all men would prefer to avoid commitment to serial “rape victims.” So then, what have feminists gained?

  • Just1X

    Speaking as a British guy on erotic choking and related matters

    (stop laughing at the back)

    The British ‘lost’ an MP (~congressman) to autoerotic asphyxiation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Milligan

    “His corpse was discovered in what was presumed to be a state of autoerotic asphyxiation, combined with self-bondage and cross-dressing. A detail of his death, which was the subject of much comment and speculation at the time, was that he was found to have had an orange segment in his mouth at the time of his death”

    There seems to be something about Conservatives (~Republicans) and sex scandals, whilst the Labour Party (further left than your Democrats) does financial scandals preferentially. The Liberals (in our middle) tend to do homosexuality.

    Perhaps there’s something about sex and pub(l)ic power messed up in some politicians’ minds? I mean you had the Kennedys and Clinton’s cigar…

    (And yes, on this I claim to be British, as I refuse to let the ‘others’ off the hook)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just

      (stop laughing at the back)

      No sex please…

      LMAO at the orange segment bit – what on earth? What was the prevailing theory on that one?

      I recall reading an article when my son was a teenager warning parents to keep track of boys’ shower times, because choking play during masturbation is often done during long showers, apparently. There I was, stopwatch in hand, leaning against the bathroom door, when he suddenly opened it after about 4 minutes in the shower, and I fell in. Thankfully, he had no clue what was in my mind. (I exaggerate slightly, a prerogative of Walsh storytellers.)

      The sex scandals among conservatives in the U.S. seems sleazier somehow – perhaps it’s just the hypocrisy. Larry Craig’s playing footsie in search of gay sex in an airport bathroom comes to mind.

      I think it’s pretty clear that men in power often use that influence to get sex. What’s more, their power gives them an unrealistic sense of being “untouchable.” We’ve seen many politicians fall on that sword – why did Nixon break in to Watergate? On the other hand, the Kennedys were largely untouchable. The fact that Teddy’s career survived Chappaquiddick is really incredible.

  • Jackie

    “This raises an interesting question – when do consensual acts that cause injury become improper or illegal? If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?”
    =====
    Yikes. Very glad not to be some kind of judge or evaluator of public standards right about now!

    To be honest, the discussion of being hit, slapped, choked and/or otherwise hurt during sex is upsetting to think about. (To me, at least.)

    Consenting adults have the legality to do these things. But it seems very strange that the same things that would be battery or assault or attempted murder, in a non-sexual scenario– legally, the kind of thing you could go to jail for– would be okay during sex.

    It seems very odd to inflect serious pain (bruises, broken bones, etc) on someone that you love. Or want someone to inflict that pain on you. Wrong for me, at least!

    As for the example above, I would examine the person’s relationships (romantic and platonic), apart from the sex. Are they healthy? Relating to others in a positive manner?

    Do they feel safe enough to express vulnerability? Their authenticity? Can they be “real” or is everything just the re-enactment of a porn movie?

    How do they respond to positive touch?– I would think that would be quite telling as well.

    Again, it seems like we have come down the discussion of legal vs. ethical. Which is always a grey zone (but not 50 Shades of Grey! ;) ) but can spark some really interesting debates.

  • Ramble

    Susan, my N is not particularly high, but, I have never known a girl to NOT desire having her hair pulled and ass spanked.

    I don’t mean that she was open to it, but that she actively wanted it. Granted, things like comfort, and vulnerability are important factors.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Susan, my N is not particularly high, but, I have never known a girl to NOT desire having her hair pulled and ass spanked.

      I don’t mean that she was open to it, but that she actively wanted it.

      I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex. I am not saying anything about whether women enjoy it – they very well may. But I can tell you that this behavior was virtually unheard of in straight sex before the internet. I have never had a sexual partner in my life suggest either, even during a ONS. Nor have I ever heard a woman older than 40 admit experience in this area.

      I can tell you that any mother who believed that her daughter was engaging in playful choking during sex would vomit, then cry. You have no idea how sexual mores have changed.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    I haven’t seen any research on this, but I hypothesize that these behaviors, especially slapping and choking, are generally practiced by the most promiscuous women (along with rimming and casual anal sex). Sassy is not promiscuous, so she is unusual in this regard.

    Even I would never engage in rimming. A woman has got to know her limits.

    Aside from that, I’m not promiscuous, but I’ve always embraced my kinky side in relationships.

    I forget sometimes that not everyone is into what I’m into.

  • JP

    “For the record, Sassy and one male commenter here have said they enjoy being choked during sex. Asphyxiation to heighten orgasm is a well-known masturbation tactic among males, and from time to time men accidentally commit suicide this way, e.g. David Carradine. However, to my knowledge, there is no similar form of female masturbation. This behavior is clearly driven by male desire and demands during sex.”

    My first roomate in college nearly killed his girlfriend this way, IIRC. If she had died, he would have certainly been arrested. Granted, he did serve time over winter break, but that was for an unreleated and non-violent felony.

    The guy who lived across the hall in college from me would slap his girlfriend very hard with backhand slaps.

    I found much of college life profoundly bizarre and very unsettling.

  • July 16th

    “If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?”

    Very problematic and the high school girl needs counseling and grounding with internet privilges taken away. My first question would be, “where did you ever get this idea from?” Its high time we seriously looked into our culture, post haste.

    “I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped”

    Unless they have. If somebody’s drunk, and you’re not, why have sex with them in the first place? As the more sober party you are risking jail time, and that goes for women who can take advantage of men in that situation too. I’ve known of a few cases.

    “but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.”

    Really? With or without the use of date rape drugs?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @July 16th

      If somebody’s drunk, and you’re not, why have sex with them in the first place? As the more sober party you are risking jail time, and that goes for women who can take advantage of men in that situation too. I’ve known of a few cases.

      This is of course very common! Binge drinking is highly correlated with casual sexual behaviors among college students. Most of the time both parties are intoxicated, and research shows that college students drink in order to lose enough inhibition to get naked with a stranger. That’s true for men and women. Take away drunkenness, and you’ll kill hookup culture immediately.

      A documentary I watched on this explained that while most states have laws on the books making consent impossible if a party is incapacitated due to alcohol, we know that this happens every single weekend on campuses across America.

      “but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.”

      Really? With or without the use of date rape drugs?

      I don’t know, actually, but claims of sexual assault are increasing. Many of the claims involve college fraternity members.

  • Jackie

    @Just1x
    Just1x, in the US, it usually goes like this:

    Republicans –particularly those who preach “fambly values”:

    Either esoteric stuff like David Vitter’s diaper fetish with the DC Madam or Jack Ryan (who was married to Seven of Nine from Star Trek “Voyager”!) who forced his wife to attend sex clubs with cages, whips and bondage.

    Or, more commonly, right-wingers denouncing gay people only to be found having secret boyfriends and male escorts. (I feel sorrier for those types– there’s got to be a lot of self-hatred involved.)

    Democrats: Less weirdness, more low-life scummy stuff.

    Like John Edwards cheating on his wife dying of cancer and having a baby with some new-age weirdo with 4 different names. Lying the whole time, of course. Anthony Weiner sent “sexting pics” to other women while his wife was pregnant. Sometimes you get the odd “furry” like David Wu, but it’s more like the exception that makes the rule! ;)

    It’s interesting you bring up Clinton– as it came up in conversation with my mentor, who is a nun! We both agreed that, really, it was no one’s business– everyone knew he was a cheater when he got elected– he should said, None of your damn business, I’ve got a country to run!

    Lying and parroting phony morality and sanctimony is somehow worse than whatever he did with Monica. And I HATE cheaters! Maybe this is a stupid question, but I can’t understand why Hillary didn’t leave him? Anyway.

    Here’s a list of US political sex scandals, although it notes “this may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness”. My favorite was the taunt given at rallies of President Cleveland for supposedly fathering an illegitimate child.
    Ma, Ma, where’s my Pa?
    Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States#1776.E2.80.931899

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    “(a bit of) slap and tickle Brit informal sexual play”
    not a US term, I gather…
    we’re not talking full force slaps, more like playful spanking etc.

    I don’t really mind what two well informed sane individuals get up to in private. I remember a scandal about (IIRC) some gay guys getting prosecuted for sand papering each others’ testicles. As a straight, young teenager, I wondered what the fuss was? I had no interest in giving or taking, but hey , chaque a son gout (each to their own taste).
    (on topic Have you seen what the hotel owners get up to in TLOG?)
    (BTW series 3 is rather different to 1 & 2, unfortunately)

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    You’re living life as a chrysalis. Break out, spread your wings, and learn to fly. It’s worth it, even if you crash from time to time.

    That’s very beautiful VD, and thanks for the advice. When everything in my situation has been boiled down, it really does amount to pride and fear.

    @ Just1X

    I put the two together, surprised (as you say), which is not necessarily what Sassy meant at the time (and indeed she denies it being what she meant)
    Then Sassy set the record straight on the extremity of what she meant.

    So, I could have been wrong about the preceding comment (that I can’t find in a quick search), AND/OR I was definitely wrong in putting that interpretation on what Sassy said. I certainl don’t recall Sassy saying that she liked the extreme stuff explicitly.

    For clarification purposes, I never meant being punched. I agreed with the word “hit”, which another poster said, but it seems that everyone took that to mean “punch” instead of “slap”. I’ve never received a bruise from such an activity, and the reality of the activity is way less harsh than what people imagine it to be. It indeed is more akin to “slap and tickle”.

    *Susan Walsh*: I didn’t want to bring this topic back up, but I felt that I should clarify some things because the topic is still being discussed by others.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      *Susan Walsh*: I didn’t want to bring this topic back up, but I felt that I should clarify some things because the topic is still being discussed by others.

      Of course! You should always feel free to jump in when you are being discussed!

  • Zach

    @Jackie 375

    I say guilt, because it’s not regret. I don’t like doing that to people, and I don’t feel that she deserved it. She didn’t do anything wrong, we just weren’t compatible for the long term. That’s why I feel guilty.

    Re: intimate acts. There actually wasn’t much discussion surrounding what she wanted. It was more mid-coitus demands, most of which I was willing to fulfill, some of which I was not. Obviously I don’t view sex being as intimate as you feel it is, but for me once it’s at that boundary (sex), that’s kind of the final intimacy frontier. To me there’s no intimacy difference between plain vanilla missionary and whatever crazy things porn directors can think of.

    @Mike C 377

    Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.

    @evilalpha 411

    By partially right I mean what you were right about was I was getting a bit bored with what was done in the bedroom, but that there were no issues with location or frequency. My thought was given the experiences that I’ve had, it’s probably going to take a more sexually creative woman to satisfy me than for other guys.

  • JP

    @Zach:

    “Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.”

    Yuck. I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes.

  • Jackie

    J1X,

    TLOG:
    The Youtube for Beast of Royston Vasey keeps freezing and restarting, so I am yet on series 1! :( :cry:

    Argh! :evil: :twisted:

    (This is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrP2s9_PXk

    My other youtubes are able to play, not sure why these BBC links are messing with me. Maybe I am being foiled by Tubbs?)

    I ordered the series from Netflix, so hopefully I will get it this week. I am hoping they have subtitles on the DVD — yes, I know it’s in english!– but I think I am missing some of the more clever humor by not understanding the words!

    There’e more than enough comedy gold to go around, tho! ;-)

  • July 16th

    “That is certainly eye-opening. Perhaps that oft-used cheater’s excuse “but she didn’t mean anything to me” should be rephrased as “I used her to unload because you wouldn’t let me unload on/in you.”

    I’ve talked with a lot of men of various ages and backgrounds and most of them say the stereotypical view of men as thinking of sex every other second, itching to unload, what Smith and Doe are saying, etc is highly exaggerated. If a man is extremely high libido and cannot satisfy himself when his partner is unable or unwilling to have sex, then monogamy is not for him and he shouldn’t pretend it is.

    “I see sex along a spectrum, from beast to human. Beast sex is confrontational, where the male or top abuses/humiliates the female or bottom. Choking, cursing at the other person (“you filthy blankety blank!”), and face slaps fall into this category. Human sex is more like partner dancing (salsa, tango, synch swimming, etc.). I skew heavily toward human sex. I can’t stand jackhammers and only feel that a slap on the cheek is appropriate as a spirited response, or cue to stay in rhythm.

    Beast sex can be dangerous. Consenting partners have the right to engage, but as far as offering guidance and advice for it, I’ve got nothin.”

    Why is beast sex being taught at universities? If people are into that, fine, but why pimp it like a product to the rest of us?

  • Just1X

    @Jackie – so, some correlation between pollies and risk taking of whatever flavour? As you say, it’s the lying that I hate the most, but to be fair, I wouldn’t vote for them if I knew the truth.

    Perhaps we’re better off with someone like Winston Churchill? (http://haruth.com/hd/fly.htm)

    YOUR FLY’S OPEN PRIME MINISTER
    “The Prime Minister’s fly is open,” I whispered to my companion as Winston Churchill passed us in the House of Commons corridors. “I think we should tell him.”

    “You tell him, you’re young and brash,” said my friend.

    I padded quietly after the great man, hummed and hawed and coughed until he eventually turned round to see what all the row was about.

    “Er…excuse me, sir. I know you won’t mind me mentioning it…er….it will save you some embarrassment but your fly is open.” I remember thinking rather irreverently that my suit was in better condition than the Prime Minister’s but this was a very special occasion for me. I had taken my best suit to London to create the right kind of impression. This was at a time when I thought Members of Parliament were a superior form of homo sapiens.

    Mr Churchill stared at me, looked down, and said in that slow, commanding, slightly lisping voice that had thrilled and inspired millions throughout the war, “My boy, there is no harm in leaving open the door of the cage when the bird is dead.”

    Though my favourite story about him is was when some old ratbag said that, “if I were your wife, I’d poison your tea”. “Madam”, he replied, “if you were my wife, I’d drink it”

    (goodnight)

  • Iggles

    @ RWC:

    I see sex along a spectrum, from beast to human. Beast sex is confrontational, where the male or top abuses/humiliates the female or bottom. Choking, cursing at the other person (“you filthy blankety blank!”), and face slaps fall into this category. Human sex is more like partner dancing (salsa, tango, synch swimming, etc.). I skew heavily toward human sex. I can’t stand jackhammers and only feel that a slap on the cheek is appropriate as a spirited response, or cue to stay in rhythm.

    I agree, as I also see sex as existing on a spectrum. Though, the term “beast sex” made me chuckle!! :lol:

    In my mind, I classify it as light and dark, and rough play resides on the darker side of the spectrum of human sexual expression — along with kinks & BSDM. The common links being elements of pain, humiliation, and exploring/subverting power dynamics. On the lighter side would reside conventional/vanilla sex acts (oral, mutual masturbation, penetrative sex) with an emphasis on pleasure, fun, and/or emotional connection.

    Passion and intensity can be found on both sides of the spectrum! I think when people declare vanilla as “boring”, it just means that they personally need a mix of pain & pleasure in their sexual activities (and as such, prefer the darker side of the spectrum!).

  • Jackie

    @Zach
    “I don’t feel that she deserved it. She didn’t do anything wrong, we just weren’t compatible for the long term. That’s why I feel guilty.”
    ======
    You have always said you’re up front and honest about everything. You weren’t leading her on or making promises you weren’t going to keep. It’s obviously a valid emotion, though, and you probably should follow it to its source, to really understand yourself so you don’t have to repeat this experience.

    I think the thing is, Zach, there is no way you can have repeated serial monogamy– going from GF to GF– without this kind of pain, if you care about someone. The longer you are together, the more you have bonded, since, as you have mentioned you had sex every day. She probably loves you very much, due in large part to bonding.

    Someone (Jimmy H?) said earlier that people can leave relationships at any time without commitment or consequence. I disagree and I think you are feeling the consequence of a (necessary) departure.

    There is always a tradeoff: You want to be able to have a lot of sex before making sure of emotional/intellectual compatibility, but it’s painful to leave someone who tried so hard to love you but still is not the right match. I believe in abiding by my religious standards but get dumped or cheated on.

    That’s the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. But I think if people learn from their experiences, they have the chance to do better in the future and sidestep a lot of pain, next time around.

    You’ve heard of the poet, George Santayana, right? Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    congrats on the series, don’t forget the audio download link that I gave, it’s got unique stuff in it (including Chinnery and the Hamster).

    (def off now, I need my beauty sleep)

  • Mike C

    Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. ***PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.***

    Zach,

    I’m not that surprised. For me, part of unplugging from the Matrix was the realization that you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that you can somehow suss out the quantity and proclivities of some girl A just by the appearances of her daily outside life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.

      So a few years older than you…

      I gather this is not the woman who you were recently seeing for a 6th date? Is she still on the scene, non-exclusively? Or is that done and you’re back to strictly casual?

  • JP

    @Jackie:

    “You’ve heard of the poet, George Santayana, right? Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it”

    The real problem is that life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards – Soren Kierkegaard

    Or maybe Time really is an old bald cheater – Ben Jonson

  • July 16th

    “It was more mid-coitus demands, most of which I was willing to fulfill, some of which I was not. ”

    “By partially right I mean what you were right about was I was getting a bit bored with what was done in the bedroom, but that there were no issues with location or frequency. My thought was given the experiences that I’ve had, it’s probably going to take a more sexually creative woman to satisfy me than for other guys.”

    I’ve not read the discussion from the beginning but just going by this, if there were some things she wanted sexually that you were unwilling to fulfill, don’t you think you might need to become “more sexually creative” as well?

  • Jackie

    @Just
    (No need to respond– I support beauty sleep!) The Churchill story is hilarious! :mrgreen:

    Churchill basically ruled this list:
    http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-10-best-comebacks-of-all-time/

    Will check out the radio programs– thanks! :D I try to ration out my “fix” of superior British shows since I had a Downton Abbey OD earlier this year. ;)

  • Jackie

    @Mike C
    “you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing.”
    ======
    I think it’s a pretty common trope– the baddest kids are the sons and daughters of preachers and cops (or other morality figures). The more public someone is about their “upstanding role” or piety, the more I tend to be suspicious.

    Interestingly enough, I had an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who was a dominatrix. Her clientele? Almost exclusively extremely orthodox Jewish and evangelical Christian men.

  • Mike C

    Me:The average beta isn’t going to be capable of a certain level of sexual aggressiveness. I’m cool with and enjoy some ass slapping and mild hair pulling (grab right at the base near the neck), but there is some stuff that I just couldn’t get into even if the woman really wanted it.

    Ana Mmm is it me or you called yourself Beta? Just curious.

    Since you are curious, I don’t think of myself as either alpha or beta, but as a guy with a mix of alpha and beta traits. On some level, I don’t think it is useful to pigeonhole guys as one or the other, but for purposes of discussion sometimes it is necessary, and many guys lean so far towards the beta end of the spectrum, for all intents and purposes they are a beta. On the flipside, I think there are guy with alpha tendencies who really don’t fall into the “douchebag asshat” category that is what is often meant by alpha when the term is used here on this blog.

    In the context of this particular discussion (sexual acts and activity) I think there are things that many men would find surprising that many women actually enjoy/get turned on. Ramble hit on this with his comment regarding hair pulling and ass slapping which I had already mentioned. Sex is a primal thing, and often the logical/rational brain totally shuts off and the primal/reptilian brain engages. I suspect like most things we talk about, female preferences vary on a spectrum depending on where they sit on the dominance/submission spectrum. I know there are women who enjoy more assertive/aggressive/dominant sex where they get kind of “manhandled”. To be clear, I know this for a fact. The key line for me that doesn’t get crossed is there is no real pain or violence taking place or any intent to harm. It is more like the playful roughhousing that two young boys or two dogs engage in.

  • JP

    @Mike:

    “I’m not that surprised. For me, part of unplugging from the Matrix was the realization that you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that you can somehow suss out the quantity and proclivities of some girl A just by the appearances of her daily outside life.”

    When I see “BigLaw”, “moral paragon of chaste virtue” isn’t exactly the picture that pops into my head.

    There’s nothing quite like watching a married law partner wander around at a party wondering whether his associate mistress left without him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      When I see “BigLaw”, “moral paragon of chaste virtue” isn’t exactly the picture that pops into my head.

      One of my best friends from b-school became the first female Managing Director of Merrill Lynch in the late 80s – she was MD of Trading. Everyone – and I mean everyone – was f*cking. The married guys were screwing young traders in downtown movie theaters at lunchtime. People were getting rooms right and left.

      Talk about dopamine chasing – this was high energy, high risk behavior both professionally and personally. Of course, it all came tumbling down and they returned to their sexless marriages with Westchester trophy wives and spoiled children.

      Once I was in the office of a very senior financial executive for a monthly debriefing, and his daughter happened to be visiting that day for lunch. She had just turned 8. He asked her to tell us about her birthday presents. She thought for a minute, then recited this:

      “Steuben Goldilocks and the Three Bears, and ancient Chinese masks.”

      Tom Wolfe captured all of this perfectly in Bonfire of the Vanities.

  • Zach

    @July 16th

    Two different girls I was talking about. The girl referred to in the first quote was a ONS (two nights actually), and I was willing to do everything she was up for except hit her in the face (which she asked me to do).

    The second girl is my ex, and my unwillingness was never an issue there.

    @Jackie

    I haven’t gone from gf to gf. I’ve had 2 girlfriends ever, each relationship lasting less than a year. One of the reasons I actually want to be in a relationship is that I’ve grown tired of the single life. I’m getting kind of sick of it. Do NOT read into that that I’m looking to get married any time soon. I just mean after years and years of booty calls, ONS, friends with benefits, etc, etc, I’m ready for something different.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (489, 490)

    Susan, have you ever read _Black Water_ by Joyce Carol Oates? It was nominated for the National Book Award and the Pulitzer. (She’s an awesome writer, but I can only take it in small doses. To me, she’s scarier than Lovecraft and way more psychologically violent than Stephen King. So weird that someone so talented expresses it in such a dark way.)

    Anyway, it’s a transparent retelling of Chappaquiddick and the greater theme is how young women can naively trust older “alpha” men and get seriously burned, and the guy has a blemish but remains in power. That’s how he survived it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Susan, have you ever read _Black Water_ by Joyce Carol Oates?

      I just got a shiver up my spine. I actually read it in the summer of 1992 while vacationing on Martha’s Vineyard. I will never forget the description of the Senator’s using her collarbone as leverage from which to launch his exit from the car.

      I recall the Kennedy family was very upset and denounced the book publicly.

      Joyce Carol Oates is an amazing and incredibly prolific writer. Nearly all of her writing is dark. I’m a fan, though I skip many of her novels – I just don’t want to go there.

  • evilalpha

    Unless they have. If somebody’s drunk, and you’re not, why have sex with them in the first place? As the more sober party you are risking jail time, and that goes for women who can take advantage of men in that situation too. I’ve known of a few cases.

    You’d have sex with them for the same reasons you would have sex with them if they weren’t drunk. Normally both parties are drunk during drunken sex anyways and since drunk is such a nebulous term.
    I don’t know about you, but I don’t carry a breathalyzer to a party.

    As for law… Yes feminist snuck in “drunk” where force and intent once were, but most folks don’t think drunken sex = rape. And they think this for good reason.

  • Jackie

    @Susan again

    Oops, sorry for the cutoff! To continue the depressingness:
    “I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex.”

    Yeah, this thread has pretty much scared the crap out of me! The idea that some guy is going to want to choke me, yank my hair (OUCH!), spank me and hit me is NOT especially reassuring!

    I would rather go cat-lady-rogue than have some guy feel he is entitled to a porn star. It makes me think on two things:

    1) It feels like sex is being turned into a performance, instead of the deepest and more intimate way you can connect with another person. And a performance is rehearsed, not authentic. To me, that is just incredibly sad: It’s like preferring a huge tacky cubic zirconia over a beautifully set diamond. Why would you want such a lame and showy substitute?

    2) I feel like porn and junk food have similar affects on the body.

    Ugh! Need to go outside and see nature! Less fake weird stuff!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Continuing the Tom Wolfe theme, I’ve read that he is very interested in the rise of porn in American culture, and one of the main characters in his new novel is a psychiatrist who treats porn addiction.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    PS: Thanks for reading my request and deleting my comments. I am sorry I was mean to Evil Alpha. :(

    Like Voltaire said, I disapprove of what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it!

  • evilalpha

    I don’t know, actually, but claims of sexual assault are increasing. Many of the claims involve college fraternity members.

    One of the key reasons sex assault is increasing is due to the widespread feminist myth that women are just men with vaginas, held back by culture.
    The reality though is women are not as horny, nor as orgasmicly versatile as men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      One of the key reasons sex assault is increasing is due to the widespread feminist myth that women are just men with vaginas, held back by culture.

      Why would that increase rape? Are you saying that men tell themselves that women need to be liberated sexually and take it upon themselves to perform that service, in some bizarre twisted justification provided by feminism?

      The reality though is women are not as horny, nor as orgasmicly versatile as men.

      What do you mean by “orgasmically versatile?” Can you compare the sexes’ versatility in this regard?

  • Jackie

    @Zach
    “Do NOT read into that that I’m looking to get married any time soon.”
    ====
    Ha ha! Zach, did you worry that I would try to set you up with someone as a matchmaker? ;-)

    I wonder, do you know who you are as a person, on your own?

    It sounds like you are always going, always in pursuit of the next woman, the next sex, always going out, being very social. When all that is removed, what is left? The core of your essence, I mean.

    It sounds to me– again, could be wrong– that you haven’t really ever gotten to see who you are, without all that. I wonder how much time you have spent in contemplation or meditation. I don’t mean religiously, or even atheistically. Just as a human being.

    There is a sacred sweetness in being alone. Once the weirdness of not being “on” all the time wears off, it is really quite incredible. You can know and see people and situations in a much deeper, more fulfilling way, in my experience at least.

  • July 16th

    “The reality though is women are not as horny, nor as orgasmicly versatile as men.”

    Orgasmicly versatile!!!!???? We are multi-orgasmic! Let’s see you beat that!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Plain Jane alert.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Plain Jane alert.

      The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails. I find myself hoping that a new commenter will not be her.

  • July 16th

    “A documentary I watched on this explained that while most states have laws on the books making consent impossible if a party is incapacitated due to alcohol, we know that this happens every single weekend on campuses across America.”

    If someone is incapacitated then they cannot participate, much less consent to sex. How could incapacitated sex happen every weekend? Tipsy sex I can understand, but incapacitated?

  • Just1X

    multi-orgasmic, hmm amidst my insomnia (you lot don’t help), this reminds me of one of the best lines that I wish I’d made (at the time I just smiled, I thought of this later)

    I was out with a lady friend (friend) when we bumped into a colleague of her’s that was an extremely large aggressive lesbian. She radiated hate at me and I hadn’t done anything beyond being a penis-owner who she probably suspected of sleeping with our mutual (straight) friend (who she found attractive). She went straight into ‘male’ aggressive competition mode (one which most guys don’t actually do). I was highly amused as either our friend was gay, or not, so the attempt at competition was unnecessary bullshit brought on by her idea of masculinity.

    Anyway, the story:

    She said, “I give my partners 8, or 9, orgasms every time we make love…”

    I gave her a shit eating grin, but what I should have said, in joke-outrage was, “that’s inhuman! no man would do that to a woman”

    took me two days to think up that line. damn, it would have been perfect; she’d have had to laugh, or explode…

  • Zach

    @Susan

    No, that 6th date girl is actually not still on the scene. I couldnt believe it, but she (a girl) was more interested in booty calls than dating. She booty called me twice when i was out of town. Not that i would have turned her down otherwise, but we didnt see each other the week after that and it kind of fizzled out. I had also dialed back the alpha a tiny bit to show her i could be dated, and that actually ruined it. She started shit testing me up the ass, and while i didnt fail on those i think just the dial back did me in. Meanwhile, i got 4 numbers last night (3 of whose names i actually know!) so we’ll see how those go.

    @Jackie

    Not sure how to respond. I dont do spiritual (im an atheist), and your post kind of reeked of new age/hippie to me. I have tons of interests outside of the next girl, but this site isnt about those interests. Would respond further but on my ipad and its not great for typing.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails. I find myself hoping that a new commenter will not be her.

    Is a trick she starts like that as a cover and then goes back to her inane stupid babbling that no one cares about. Really if I was studying psychology I would use her as study case. She must have more issues than Spiderman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Is a trick she starts like that as a cover and then goes back to her inane stupid babbling that no one cares about.

      It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…

  • Jackie

    @Susan (503)
    Interesting! I will definitely keep an eye out for the new book.

    I don’t expect anyone to agree with me on this: Porn seems to me like a cross between Schehrezade, being able to weave 1001 stories and fantasies of the Arabian Nights, and the Goethe fairy tale, The Sorcerer’s Apprentice.

    (If you’ve seen Fantasia, this is the story where Mickey Mouse is the apprentice — he enchants a broom to do his work for him. Since he’s not yet trained, the brooms keep splitting and multiplying and multiplying, turning into a nightmare.)

    Both of the stories have happy endings, but I feel like porn is kind of the dark side of this, with a rather dark conclusion, like a Faustian bargain. There it is: Any fantasy you want, projected on a screen before you. Any time you want it. As much as you want it. But none of it’s real and you’re still alone.

    Because it’s not really happening to you and it tricks your brain into thinking it is. And the people who want to be on film will basically subject themselves to anything (don’t want to know what– this makes me too sad as it is) to be a “star,” a porn star.

    It’s like the equivalent of thinking you will somehow be able to fall in love from watching a romcom. And even the best of them are entertaining, but no substitute for human affection. The rules of romcoms don’t exist in reality; real life is so much more complicated.

    Anyway, at the end, you’re only more isolated and that much further away from a connection with another human being. Maybe some people feel like that’s a safer alternative to having to risk living in reality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I think that you’ve got an awesome article there – porn as Scheherazade and Fantasia. I’m not kidding – I would write it up and submit it to HuffPo or Salon.

  • Just1X

    A couple of questions:
    1) would “that’s inhuman! no man would put a woman through an ordeal like that” be better? (five years and two days later FML)
    2) 8-9 orgasms on the trot…sounds like harsh treatment…would it be enjoyable ladies? surely you’d be emotionaly wrung out like a dish-rag afterwards(?)

    any takers?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Personally, 8 or 9 orgasms in one session sounds painful. Literally. Even though women are good to go again fairly quickly after an orgasm, there is a hypersensitivity period where contact is painful. I can’t speak for other women, but an orgasm or two is just perfect. There’s a certain numbness or insensitivity that happens after a certain point.

  • July 16th

    Jackie I’m with you on the walk in nature need after learning about this stuff. My fantasies all take place in nature and all that BDSM stuff is in doors and requires plastic, steel, manufactured items. I’m more the skinny dipping and making love under a full moon as water flows on top of you from above type. Not an uncommon occurrence on the island of Maui.

  • July 16th

    Just1X, sorry but I don’t get that comeback. Don’t know if I’m just slow on the uptake or its “British humor” or what.

  • Jackie

    @Zach
    “Not sure how to respond. I dont do spiritual (im an atheist), and your post kind of reeked of new age/hippie to me.”
    =====
    Hahaha! New age/hippie! Just for the record, I am a committed religious person who wears retro clothes (as in, real corsetry, stockings and high heels) almost every day.

    I appreciate the image of me as an unwashed, barefoot, tree-hugging, patchouli-stinking, crystal-wearing, peace-signing hippie chick, though! Haha! ;-)

    No need to respond if it doesn’t resonate with you. I have found that taking time between relationships for contemplation has really helped me, obviously YMMV.

    Thanks for responding and GL with the iPad! :)

  • Just1X

    @J16 #514 *sigh* story of my life :)

    I was turning her boast of sexual prowess into a cruel thing to do to a woman *crickets* *lonely bell tolling in the distance* *tumbleweeds blown across the set*

    Like your handle, the anniversary of the first atom bomb test in Alamogordo. or maybe just your birthday, I guess

  • Just1X

    @Jackie
    my eyes have just gone boggly, that’s the second day in a row that you’ve surprised the hell out of me (in a good way)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      my eyes have just gone boggly, that’s the second day in a row that you’ve surprised the hell out of me (in a good way)

      Haha, was it the corsetry?

  • J

    But you did felt the need to tell her that there was nothing wrong with being unemotional, and that with the right man she will be…Why?

    Because being independent or reserved is often an innate, not particulary malleable trait. And there may not be anything wrong with it, in and of itself. It’s a normal variation in the continuum of human personality traits. The conflict Sassy may have between the desire to control and the desire to be controlled is a resolvable problem which I urged her to explore.

  • Richard Aubrey

    Took a person to the ER one evening, and as I was sitting there talking to the person during the treatment, I got to talking to the nurse. She was really attractive, really competent. Impressive. She’d chosen her nursing school because of the rep its grads had accumulated. It also fit her personality, a restrictive Christian school where dating meant a bunch of guys and a bunch of girls–different schools–got together for supervised mixers. She thought that was great. Among other things–she didn’t say this directly–there was more time for studying. They had a couple of top-rated athletic teams in their division, which wasn’t a very high division, and she was on one of them. Had a great time, married a guy from the other school, has two kids and seemed extraordinarily happy and together.
    Hard to say what went through her mind and those of her schoolmates at two in the morning when sleep wouldn’t come. But concerns of infections and pregnancy weren’t among them.
    Now, I suspect you could make a pretty hot novel about two virgins getting an instruction manual and trying everything within the complete trust of a loving marriage and no–due to having a loving marriage–inhibitions. Might take a sense of humor, though.
    Different strokes, as we said back toward the middle of the last century.

  • J

    Beast sex can be dangerous. Consenting partners have the right to engage, but as far as offering guidance and advice for it, I’ve got nothing.

    I’ll cosign. I understand that some people are into this, but I really don’t get it. There is a “happily married man” in the ‘sphere who often comments regarding his wife’s desire to be spanked during ovulation and her once asking him before their marriage to take her someplace and rough her up. I simply can’t imagine wanting that (It would hurt!) or having a husband who’d want to provide that. My DH would have run for the hills had I requested that.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Because being independent or reserved is often an innate, not particulary malleable trait. And there may not be anything wrong with it, in and of itself.

    Sassy’s comment was:
    …but I’ve had 4 different men tell me that I’m “not emotional enough”. They have all said the exact same thing. I’m not naive enough to assume that the problem is with the guys either. If 4 different men all say the same thing, the problem is with me.

    The question is how can I foster a more emotionally expressive personality?…

    So your assessment of her issue is different than what she expressed and it was only when the “violence” in the sex was raised that you joined the “you might need therapy” crowd. What made you think that she might be not have emotional issues (lack of demonstrating emotion according to you shouldn’t be explored and tried to deal with) but sexual “tastes” can and should be changed? I think you mentioned that you were a therapist I’m just trying to find out why the double standard between emotions and sexuality, which I find really odd. If you cannot change your personality what makes you think you can change what makes you get off. Doesn’t make sense to me.

  • Jackie

    Just1X
    ;)

    J1, if you have anything like MeetUp.com, you will see our numbers are legion!

    At least once a month they have social stuff that revolves specifically around British TV trivia challenges and retro-required events. The British stuff is ALWAYS packed– with your knowledge and quick wit (as opposed to “shining wit” haha!) you would certainly dominate the scene!

    (BTW, 7-16 is totally trolling you. Your joke is awesome and will age to perfection like wine. Just be ready for your next chance!)

    They have retro stuff every month– this month is a dance at an airport hangar to a real big band. Everybody goes, from the teenagers to the folks in their 70s. It’s only like $10 and the 70-yr-olds beat the snot of the whippersnappers on the dance floor.

    If they have that stuff in your area, you will basically rule the scene. :)

  • J

    I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped, but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.

    How drunk? Passed out? That’s rape. Got herself drunk with the specific idea of getting laid? Not rape. It’s the stuff in between that gets sticky.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…dopamine on Wall Street….I think you’d be interested in “The Hour Between Dog and Wolf,” by John Coates. The author is a trader turned neuroscience researcher, and his interest is in the embodiment of mind: specifically the effect of changing hormone levels of trading/investing performance.

  • J

    Susan, my N is not particularly high, but, I have never known a girl to NOT desire having her hair pulled and ass spanked….I don’t mean that she was open to it, but that she actively wanted it.

    Color me astounded.

  • J

    Sassy’s comment was:
    …but I’ve had 4 different men tell me that I’m “not emotional enough”. They have all said the exact same thing. I’m not naive enough to assume that the problem is with the guys either. If 4 different men all say the same thing, the problem is with me.

    The question is how can I foster a more emotionally expressive personality?…

    So your assessment of her issue is different than what she expressed

    I skimmed past that comment apparently. My bad. That changes everything. She’s right and so are you. If four men have told her this, it’s time to start listening.

  • Ramble

    I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex.

    No. I am simply telling you, no.

    I am sure that porn has opened people’s minds as to what might be socially acceptable, or maybe “attemptable”, but, I am positive that these girls were not reacting to porn, or the guys male fantasies.

    I will give you a small, non-sexual example: one girl, who was very sweet, and very intelligent, and had no interest in being ordered around (or push anyone around herself) would want me to order her around when she was tipsy (she was no lush).

    She wanted me to tell her to make me a sandwich and get me a beer.

    She wanted to feel male dominance from a man that genuinely loved her, showed affection to her and took care of her when she was down, sick or scared.

    She felt very comfortable with me. And when we dimmed the lights and went to bed (or wherever) she wanted to feed some base, primal desires. Basically, she got to experience the “rape fantasy” with someone that she knew, with complete confidence, loved her and would never hurt her.

    She was a sweet girl.

    That is just one example.

    I have dated sluttier girls that were more forward about feeling male dominance.

    However, if it makes you feel any better, I don’t believe that she ever wanted me to punch her in the face, or cut her, or anything like that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RAmble

      Your description doesn’t surprise me, I have felt all those things myself. Including the pretend rape – very arousing. That is different than getting off on being hit.

  • Mike C

    Color me astounded.

    Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe Susan is right that somehow it is porn based although I think some other dynamics are at play as well, but seems to me there is quite a difference between what middle-aged women like yourself and Susan enjoy versus younger women in the 20-30+ range.

    With respect to the hair pulling, the first time I did it, the woman actually directed me specifically what to do and how to do it as I didn’t have it quite right. It isn’t pulling from the ends, but more grabbing a clump with the palm (at the back of the head especially from a DS position) and just some moderate pressure. I can tell you hardly a day goes by without me smacking my fiancee on the ass, and she loves it. Again, I’m not trying to actually inflict any pain so it is probably 5-10% of the max force I could actually generate.

    I had also dialed back the alpha a tiny bit to show her i could be dated, and that actually ruined it. She started shit testing me up the ass, and while i didnt fail on those i think just the dial back did me in. Meanwhile, i got 4 numbers last night (3 of whose names i actually know!) so we’ll see how those go.

    Susan, I wanted to especially note this comment from Zach in case it slips by you. I understand your emphasis on data, surveys, etc., but I think there is some value in continuing to pay attention to the things REAL guys report out in the real world/field that they encounter from women that they try to escalate romantic interaction with. Maybe this girl was just really high on the craving dominance/hypergamy spectrum, but my sources continue to tell me this sort of thing is more common than not.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Susan, I wanted to especially note this comment from Zach in case it slips by you.

      It didn’t slip by me, and it doesn’t surprise me. Zach is clearly fishing in the 20% pond. He’s going out 3 or 4 nights a week, meeting girls in bars, disqualifying girls who like to “stay in.” He’s in ultra hypergamous territory. Nothing wrong with that, but he’s going after STR girls with an LTR mindset. It may take a while.

  • Mike C

    Messed up last paragraph…that was my response to quoting Zach

  • Mike C

    Ramble at 527…I’ve had similar experiences. I think one thing could be that many women feel more free to shed any inhibitions and don’t have as many boundaries over what is “acceptable” sexual activity if they are with someone they trust and activities X, Y, and Z really do in fact turn them on/get them off. I’m skeptical of the notion that it is all a performance trying to please men. If that is the case, then I’ve been witness to some damn good acting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I’m skeptical of the notion that it is all a performance trying to please men. If that is the case, then I’ve been witness to some damn good acting.

      I don’t think this is necessarily the case. It is entirely possible that porn has opened up women’s minds to new behaviors. The other thing to remember is that women are turned on by male arousal. Being desired is the most powerful aphrodisiac for a female. So pleasing men becomes physically pleasing. That’s how we’re wired.

      I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @J, #520
    “There is a “happily married man” in the ‘sphere who often comments regarding his wife’s desire to be spanked during ovulation and her once asking him before their marriage to take her someplace and rough her up. I simply can’t imagine wanting that (It would hurt!) or having a husband who’d want to provide that.”

    Sounds like she should join a fight club, or maybe release her aggressions on a raw hide chew toy or something.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I skimmed past that comment apparently. My bad. That changes everything. She’s right and so are you. If four men have told her this, it’s time to start listening.

    Oh okay I was just confused by the whole thing. Thanks for “enduring” my questionnaire I know I can be annoying, also we had this conversation with Sassy before so there is some precedent that you were not aware.

    @Ramble
    I side with you on the “some level of aggressiveness is desirable to women” my older married or sexually active friends were very open about how good it was when their hubby’s got rough with them and waking up with “muscular” pain and remembering how they got there was part of the experience and this were women that barely used computers some of them are even on the country side, some of them deeply religious monogamous married a virgin with only their husbands as sexual partners, so it was not something they particularly learned from the media. Also vintage romance novels have a lot of this “a bit rough please” moments.
    Our species didn’t evolved on a field of flowers or the Garden of Eden but in a harsh environment full of diseases, beasts and lack of food, and it took us centuries to master. I’m pretty sure any homo sapiens needing “soft music and candles and light thrusting with enough time to make them feel comfortable and safe” to get off, died without a lot of kids, again I agree this is an spectrum of course but evolution has never been gentle and I get the feeling that never will be,YMMV.

  • J

    I think you mentioned that you were a therapist

    Not exactly a therapist (though anyone can call themselves one–there’s no legal definition), but I was a degreed professional who worked in a mental hospital with adolescence as part of the treatment team.

    If you cannot change your personality what makes you think you can change what makes you get off. Doesn’t make sense to me.

    Therapy (and I’m assuming you mean talk therapy) doesn’t really change core personality (part of which is probably genetically determined) as much as it (hopefully) helps people to work out issues or live with difficult parts of their personalities. Working out an issue, for example, the desire to be controlled by another as opposed to exercising self-control, could potentially change what gets someone off. That’s within reason, of course. Therapy has a good track record of helping people get out of abusive relationships, but not of helping gay people become straight. That appears to be biological at this point.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Color me judgmental, but a lot of the women being described in these posts (e.g., #467, 527, 528) sound like victims of internalized childhood sexual assault.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “I’m pretty sure any homo sapiens needing “soft music and candles and light thrusting with enough time to make them feel comfortable and safe” to get off, died without a lot of kids, again I agree this is an spectrum of course but evolution has never been gentle and I get the feeling that never will be…”

    Hence my description of the rough end of the spectrum as “beast sex.” Non-human animals appear to do a lot of pinning the female down and humping.

    Not all non-combative sex is all about candles and soft music, though. More “peaceful” or “empathetic” sex often involves spontaneity, sweat, lots of energy, etc. It’s more like merrily jumping on a trampoline together rather than wrestling and slapping. In the non-human animal kingdom, Bonobos engage in sex as a sign of affection.

    IMO, if there is zero smiling and no “shavasana” type release involved, the sex wasn’t good.

  • Mike C

    Color me judgmental, but a lot of the women being described in these posts (e.g., #467, 527, 528) sound like victims of internalized childhood sexual assault.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it nonsense to automatically assume that a woman that likes a more aggressive sexual encounter is automatically the victim of childhood sexual assault. The devil really is in the details as I think there is a very real difference between some playful aggressive intensity and abuse. There is a world of difference between a smack on the ass and a punch to the face. I think Ana knows exactly what I am talking about.

    FWIW, I am a Star Trek geek and religiously watched Next Generation. In it you had the race of Klingons. One of the things I liked about the show is how different species were used to portray different human philosophies and views. The Vulcans were about logic and rationality while the Klingons were a warrior race built on male competition, aggression, and hierarchy. Anyways, there were a few episodes that showed sexual relations between Klingon males and females and it had a very aggressive intensity but it was clear the intent was not for the male to abuse the female. If there is one thing I’ve really taken away from all these conversations is that women really do vary significantly in terms of preferences, attraction triggers, male physicality (such as muscles versus skinny emos). Its really hard to nail down a universal female preference. I think this particular blog and the most active female commenters all tend to belong to the same category, not very hypergamous, not craving much dominance, not really girly girls, highly rational and logical. That doesn’t mean that women outside that category are automatically dsyfunctional in some way.

  • J

    but seems to me there is quite a difference between what middle-aged women like yourself and Susan enjoy versus younger women in the 20-30+ range.

    I guess so. I just don’t get the pain and pleasure connection.

    I can tell you hardly a day goes by without me smacking my fiancee on the ass, and she loves it.

    I think there’s a big difference between playing around like that and a slap in the face. Every woman who has an ass has had it smacked playfully. The ass smack sort of says, “I can’t keep my hands off that ass” and generally doesn’t hurt. A slap in the face is painful and humiliating. I wouldn’t slap my kids in the face much less another adult.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      A slap in the face is painful and humiliating. I wouldn’t slap my kids in the face much less another adult.

      Agreed. There is a world of difference between a playful slap on the ass and slapping someone’s face. The latter is never playful, or perhaps it might be “danger play.”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Not exactly a therapist (though anyone can call themselves one–there’s no legal definition), but I was a degreed professional who worked in a mental hospital with adolescence as part of the treatment team.

    Oh didn’t knew that I guess that is why some people say “license therapists” to make sure they know is a real professional. Interesting indeed.

    Therapy (and I’m assuming you mean talk therapy) doesn’t really change core personality (part of which is probably genetically determined) as much as it (hopefully) helps people to work out issues or live with difficult parts of their personalities. Working out an issue, for example, the desire to be controlled by another as opposed to exercising self-control, could potentially change what gets someone off. That’s within reason, of course. Therapy has a good track record of helping people get out of abusive relationships, but not of helping gay people become straight. That appears to be biological at this point.

    That is what I meant that therapy is an aid not the panacea of all issues and that some people will just find out about themselves better and learn to cope with it no change themselves, hence my confusion.

  • Mike C

    I guess so. I just don’t get the pain and pleasure connection.

    Not everything is logically explainable. I’ll tell you I really like having nails scratched across my back to the point where there is just a tad bit of mild pain. I’ve had situations where my back looked like quite the mess.

    I think there’s a big difference between playing around like that and a slap in the face. Every woman who has an ass has had it smacked playfully. The ass smack sort of says, “I can’t keep my hands off that ass” and generally doesn’t hurt. A slap in the face is painful and humiliating. I wouldn’t slap my kids in the face much less another adult.

    Yeah, I agree, which is why I personally find the face thing problematic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll tell you I really like having nails scratched across my back to the point where there is just a tad bit of mild pain.

      Every man I’ve known likes female fingernails scratched across his back. Any woman who fails to do that is ignoring a key tactic in the tool kit… :)

  • J

    The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails

    Indeed.

    @Ana

    Not a problem. Had I read more carefully, I would have responded differently.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hence my description of the rough end of the spectrum as “beast sex.” Non-human animals appear to do a lot of pinning the female down and humping.

    Well since we have a reptilian brain that is very much involved on our choices I wouldn’t say this part of us doesn’t get to play rough too.

    I think Ana knows exactly what I am talking about.

    Yeah but I think in this culture any level of aggressiveness is tied up to rape even if is consensual the whole “when in doubt blame it on rape” seems to be very pervasive. Again I agree that there are boundaries like doing stuff that can alert the police/relatives or end your life that should be contained or at least supervised by a third party with first aid skills but from there to get off on some slapping, hair pulling and rough sex…. I don’t think is the same, YMMV.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Mike C
    “Anyways, there were a few episodes that showed sexual relations between Klingon males and females and it had a very aggressive intensity…”

    LOL, I vaguely remember an episode where there was a female from a race that was known for being able to seduce any male of any race. When she walked past Worf, she growled under her breath and he straightened up immediately and growled back. The aggressive sexual nature of the Klingons was a running theme.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    LOL, I vaguely remember an episode where there was a female from a race that was known for being able to seduce any male of any race. When she walked past Worf, she growled under her breath and he straightened up immediately and growled back.

    That episode was called the perfect mate and Kamala was played by Famke Janssen who played Jean Grey in the X-Men movies alongside with Picard/Xavier/ Patrick Stewart. It was a cool reunion for us fan of both.
    *nerdhatoff* :D

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…

    I see the opposite she mimics some smart thoughts and the ranting is her true self. I consider her smart comments her “Trojan horse” Look I’m not the idiot I’m smart” as soon as people start to engage her she goes back to derailtown. I might be wrong though but at this point I don’t expect it to last.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    I wanted to notate that we now have two examples of guys (Zach and Jason) who most likely present as strong alpha frames with some player vibe who when they tried to dial it down and do the more proper courting/dating/relationship thing with a girl apparently lost that girl’s interest/attraction. Just two anecdotes, but interesting nonetheless.

  • J

    Yeah but I think in this culture any level of aggressiveness is tied up to rape even if is consensual

    I don’t think the objection is necessarily that rough sex equates to rape as much as it does to pain, domination and humiliation. In a way, when people actually label these sort of interchanges as BDSM, it sort of isolates it as kink and people say, “Whatever, it’s not my business.” There’s something about it being considered mainstream that’s disturbing.

  • Iggles

    @ RWC:

    Not all non-combative sex is all about candles and soft music, though. More “peaceful” or “empathetic” sex often involves spontaneity, sweat, lots of energy, etc. It’s more like merrily jumping on a trampoline together rather than wrestling and slapping.

    +1000

    As I mentioned upthread, passion isn’t limited to just kinky/”beastial” sex :lol:

  • SayWhaat

    I wanted to notate that we now have two examples of guys (Zach and Jason) who most likely present as strong alpha frames with some player vibe who when they tried to dial it down and do the more proper courting/dating/relationship thing with a girl apparently lost that girl’s interest/attraction. Just two anecdotes, but interesting nonetheless.

    I think it may have been the incongruence (presenting as alpha and then suddenly going to beta) that may have done them in.

  • Jackie

    @Susan (545)
    :oops:
    +
    :mrgreen:
    Hopefully I have redeemed myself from earlier today! :-)

    I would *love* to write something! You could call it “Porn: The Dark Side of Fantasia” or “Scheherezade’s Dark Twin”– something emphasizing the duality and dark side of the fairy tales.

    If I could figure out a way to make it work! Both S & TSA end up being bailed out (or bailing themselves out) with total HEA *Happily Ever Afters.

    Or somehow working in Plato’s Cave, which is a pretty awesome metaphor for movies and being unmoored from the reality outisde. Or the Greek sirens as our modern day porn stars– mirages that only lead men to destruction.

    Isn’t Salon totally ‘Pozzie, though? Tracey Clark-Fiory writes about being into porn since she was 12. :( They think non-pozzie are weirdos and stupid. It kinda makes me want to write the article, just to show them!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Isn’t Salon totally ‘Pozzie, though? Tracey Clark-Fiory writes about being into porn since she was 12. They think non-pozzie are weirdos and stupid. It kinda makes me want to write the article, just to show them!

      Yeah, you’re better off with HuffPo. TCF is an interesting case – casual sex has never worked for her, but sadly, she keeps promoting it.

  • Iggles

    @ J

    but seems to me there is quite a difference between what middle-aged women like yourself and Susan enjoy versus younger women in the 20-30+ range.

    I guess so. I just don’t get the pain and pleasure connection.

    I’m in the younger range and I don’t get it either. But different strokes for different folks. However, I do think the rise of porn has a lot to do with certain acts & proclivities becoming more common.

  • Jackie

    “I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.”
    ====
    This is going to be a weird comparison:

    When I adopted my cat, she was starving and the vet said she had been so deprived she had “food anxiety.” It was like, she was starved at SO many levels, she would gorge herself in an unhealthy way. Totally overcompensating kitty. :(

    I wonder if, at some level, there is a leadership (“dominant”) deprivation going on. That girls are so deprived of a man leading with confidence, that they’ve swung over to some overcompensatory behaviors, that looks almost like a parody from outside?

    PS: After almost a year of having enough food, the sweet cat is way less crazy and anxious. Still is kind of a hog, but not nearly as neurotic, I think. :D

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I wonder if, at some level, there is a leadership (“dominant”) deprivation going on. That girls are so deprived of a man leading with confidence, that they’ve swung over to some overcompensatory behaviors, that looks almost like a parody from outside?

      Thanks, that’s exactly what I was trying to express.

  • Iggles

    @ SayWhaat:

    I think it may have been the incongruence (presenting as alpha and then suddenly going to beta) that may have done them in.

    Good point.

    FWIW, I think it’s a mixture of this and what Susan noted in #551:

    Zach is clearly fishing in the 20% pond. He’s going out 3 or 4 nights a week, meeting girls in bars, disqualifying girls who like to “stay in.” He’s in ultra hypergamous territory. Nothing wrong with that, but he’s going after STR girls with an LTR mindset. It may take a while.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t think the objection is necessarily that rough sex equates to rape as much as it does to pain, domination and humiliation.

    Well to use an example I read Twilight in Spanish and joined the Spanish fandom (after all books were published) this included Spain and some of my friends from Italy, France, Chile, Venezuela, Brazil…and this were both old and young women. When the “honeymoon and bruises came in” we were all like “Oh might that was my kind of honeymoon, good job Edward about time you let go just a bit!”. Then when I read how it was taken on USA well the claims that “Bella was raped till she passed out” were pretty much everywhere.
    I actually got the English version to see if they changed it in translation…nope same scene. I had to copy paste it for my hubby because he was shocked that I was not horrified by this. Is a small example but I have had similar issues like in Superman Returns the fact that Lois doesn’t remember that she and Supes had sex is being called rape more than once, and then there is the Schrödinger’s Rapist article: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/… so yeah I do think here is “a man is a rapist till proven otherwise” again my perception as coming from another culture it could be wrong but that is how it seems to work here, YMMV.

  • Jackie

    Re: PJ

    “It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…

    I see the opposite she mimics some smart thoughts and the ranting is her true self. I consider her smart comments her “Trojan horse”
    ========
    I was thinking we could write a formula for fishing her out:
    *always uses two parts to a name
    *likes to play the Puritan, looks down on those who are not
    *makes reference to exotic places
    *requests over-explanatory replies

    I think that part of her is very conflicted about what we are talking about on HUS. She’s obviously drawn here, and starts with asking questions that are actually interesting.

    It reminds me of someone who is torn between wanting to believe feminist theory and someone who wants to believe what their own eyes are telling them. The conflict within is not resolved. So she plays both sides against each the other to mirror the conflict within her own self.

  • J

    Oh didn’t knew that I guess that is why some people say “license therapists” to make sure they know is a real professional. Interesting indeed.

    Exactly. Should you ever need a therapist of any sort, be sure to check credentials. Does your “massage therapist” have a degree in physiology or just a white coat? There are loads of charlatans calling themselves therapists. A person with a PhD in basketweaving can potentially call themselves Dr. and work as a therapist in a field where they have no credentials as long as they don’t pretend to have license.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Exactly. Should you ever need a therapist of any sort, be sure to check credentials.

    Heh I have a tendency to paranoia so I’m very through about this, it takes many visits before accepting anyone touching me whether mind, body or soul. But is good to remind in general terms for the kids on the audience.

  • J

    I can’t speak to the fandom perception of rape in books and movies, but I think that, for many of us, a slap in the face is so appalling that we aren’t thinking much past it.

  • J

    I wonder if, at some level, there is a leadership (“dominant”) deprivation going on. That girls are so deprived of a man leading with confidence, that they’ve swung over to some overcompensatory behaviors, that looks almost like a parody from outside?

    Possible. Also possible: People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Also possible: People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.

      Numbness is the right word. I’ve read that both men and women are physiologically desensitized as a result of constant exposure to sexual material in the culture, though obviously porn is the obvious example. Apparently, many men who urged their wives to read 50 Shades of Grey are now sorry they did. They thought it would increase their wives’ sex drives, and instead it’s created insatiable women that the men are unable to please.

      Although 34% said they encouraged their other half to read the bondage book, a large proportion admitted they later regretted it after their partners began to knacker them out with their sexual requests.

      “I’d heard a little about the books and thought it would be a good idea for my wife to give them a read – I didn’t know what I was letting myself in for,” one participant said, according to the study.

      “I don’t know whether I’m going to be able to meet her demands and keep her satisfied.”

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/06/fifty-shades-of-grey-men-stuggle-sex-demands_n_1746411.html

  • Jackie

    “my eyes have just gone boggly, that’s the second day in a row that you’ve surprised the hell out of me (in a good way)

    Haha, was it the corsetry?”
    =====
    Hahaha! That reminds me of a guy I went to school with, who was a film score composer — there was a group of us girls who were doing a renaissance project together, and he would constantly implore us to become a “corset consort,” as if that would give us some kind of edge!

    Those real ones were SO LITTLE– they made your waist about 18 inches and also squished your internal organs to death. Eeep!

    This is the only reason to get that crazy:
    http://collections.mcny.org/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MNYO28_4

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Anacaona
    “That episode was called the perfect mate and Kamala was played by Famke Janssen who played Jean Grey in the X-Men movies alongside with Picard/Xavier/ Patrick Stewart. It was a cool reunion for us fan of both.”

    You are awesome! :)

  • Jackie

    @J
    “Possible. Also possible: People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.”
    =====
    :(
    Those are the same people who I’ve seen tear up just by getting a simple hug or someone holding their hand.

    In some ways, softness and gentleness can be the most powerful of all.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.

    THIS so much. I often think that a couple of months on the third world with no AC, cars, electricity, or security of any sorts will cure 90% of the “I’m bored” epidemic. When I read the premise of the new show Revolution “No electricity will turn America into savage land?!” I was like ” No electricity was our reading, singing with the family/playing bingo time!” that show is so no going to be popular overseas.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You are awesome!

    Aww thank you *kissonthecheek*

  • Gorb

    Susan,

    I’m wondering what kind of push-back you get from feminists for posts like this. I can’t imagine that a single sentence in the original post is something they’d agree with. Virtually everything you wrote must be disagreeable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Gorb

      I’m not on any feminist radar screens at the moment, because I haven’t gone after them directly with links in a while. I’m certain Amanda Marcotte doesn’t read HUS, and I don’t read any of their blogs myself.

      However, I do get a lot of feminist drive-bys – every day they leave comments on old posts expressing their disgust with me. I rarely respond.

      Interestingly, a feminist writer from The Frisky (a fairly trashy, slutty online mag) linked to me from her own blog recently, promoting a post I wrote on how to choose a marriage partner.

  • J

    A bizarre OT question:

    I was watching Tosh.O with my sons (I know what a bad mom!), and there was a clip of amputee porn. Is that stuff for real?

  • J

    @Ana and Jackie

    People have too much of the wrong stuff and not enough of the right stuff in 21st century America.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Ana 504
    I didn’t want to be the one to say it, so thanks! :P

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I didn’t want to be the one to say it, so thanks!

    Why not? We should totally play the “spot the Plain Jane” game for the HUSies (we might as well have fun if we are stuck with her for the moment). Like whoever calls it first gets some sort of internet applause from the other HUSies.

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Ana
    “Bella was raped till she passed out”

    HAHAHAHA! That’s so absurd . . . You know, I always assumed it was because Edward’s flesh isn’t resilient/pliant (or whatever the term is) like human flesh, but is actually like stone. (Or have I misread something? Is he just cold like stone?)

    When I read the premise of the new show Revolution “No electricity will turn America into savage land?!” I was like ” No electricity was our reading, singing with the family/playing bingo time!” that show is so no going to be popular overseas.

    About ten years ago, I read a novel with a similar premise, inspired by the Y2K scare. There was a family that suspected all electronics were going to fail, so they sold their house and business in the suburbs and moved to a remote farm. Because, as you pointed out, the loss of electricity means the loss of civilization. ;) But even there, they were not safe, and one year later, a roving gang attacked them. Oh, well . . .

  • http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com Bellita

    @Ana
    Why not? We should totally play the “spot the Plain Jane” game for the HUSies

    Hahahaha! It’s just that I don’t comment here as often as I used to, and I feel it would be a bit rude to burst in after a long absence, screaming, “IT’S THE TROLL!!!” :P

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    HAHAHAHA! That’s so absurd . . . You know, I always assumed it was because Edward’s flesh isn’t resilient/pliant (or whatever the term is) like human flesh, but is actually like stone. (Or have I misread something? Is he just cold like stone?)

    It has to be a metaphor for how strong and cold they are as to how still they could get if they were literal statues it would be really stupid that no one would had noticed the the lack of humanity on the Cullens. Bella’s is pale as an albino is not surprising that she bruises easily. Heck I’m not white myself and I find myself bruised all the freaking time, even before I got married and really Edward spent so much time scared of “hurting” her that if she would have had sex and nothing would had happened I would had rolled my eyes from here to Brazil, way to show how stupid his whole denial would had been.
    *Twihardhatoff*

    Because, as you pointed out, the loss of electricity means the loss of civilization.

    Yeah hubby pointed out that Katrina survivors were not going to buy this premise either. I think the longest we had been without electricity straight was a whole month after the hurricane George hit us and the first days were a bit hard but then going back to hand washing, cooking with charcoal, telling each other stories for entertainment, using candles during nighttime…Yeah the premise doesn’t fly when you have actually lived on it.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hahahaha! It’s just that I don’t comment here as often as I used to, and I feel it would be a bit rude to burst in after a long absence, screaming, “IT’S THE TROLL!!!”

    Heh I’m sure no one will mind. I love how you call her THE troll, yeah we should adopt her as official HUS pet like Slimer was on the The Real Ghostbusters was: Annoying and disgusting but always around. ;)

  • Courtley

    @Hope

    “Another thing to do is observe animal companions. If he’s a cat person, imitate a kitty. If he’s a dog person, imitate a puppy. For example, she nuzzles into your chest and purrs like a kitten, and gracefully touches your face with her cupped hands. She sits on your lap like a lap kitty and asks to be petted. Or she pounces on you with an energetic hug and kiss, and playfully gives you a lick on the cheek. It’s totally silly but adorable. If a guy doesn’t get his heart melted by animals, something is wrong!”

    I’m not trying to mean, at all, but this does seem pretty random and a bit weird to me. Sorry! The idea of trying to win a man’s heart by imitating his favorite ANIMAL just . . . rubs me the wrong way, I’m afraid.

    I love what you said here, though–and I’d love a post (sorry, Susan! More requests :D) on “developing your own style of femininity.”

    “Sassy, another thought I have is that you can find your own style of femininity. For example, you can really ooze warm, sultry femininity. You don’t have to do “cutesy” if that’s not your thing. You can do passionate, sensual, fiery and loyal, more like a tigress or lioness than a kitten. I think alpha males (the lion type) would be more attracted to that sort of display, too.”

    There are definitely different feminine (and masculine, but let’s talk feminine) archetypes out there and while I am a believer in ‘being yourself’ I think it’s cool to get, like, some inspiration on your “girl game” sometimes from some of these archetypes. :D

    Cutesy is a type that has definite appeal to certain guys, but also does NOT appeal to others. It’s not my personality to be very ‘cutesy’ but at 5 feet tall and about 95 lb, all I really have to do is wear something feminine and twirl my hair or whatever and BAM, “cutesy.” :D TBH though, I much prefer a sort of sensual, centered, wise, deep, dignified and what I’d call “womanly” vibe and that is what I’m working on developing as I head into my late 20s. Like Sassy, I think, I react logically and not emotionally to the world and this is pretty unusual for women and does decrease our sense of ‘femininity’ to lots of men. It’s important for logical women to learn to be comfortable expressing emotion at least sometimes. That doesn’t mean we have to turn into drama queens, but it is a learned skill, and I think we need to learn to express our femininity in ways that are congruent with our natural personalities.

    In terms of inspiration, I love a lot of old movie stars and have been watching a lot of Elizabeth Taylor interviews and movies lately because her brand of femininity is so amazing and iconic IMO. I can’t pull off that ‘type’ but I find her inspirational and more imitable than someone like Marilyn Monroe, who certain women can emulate beautifully but I never could and honestly don’t want the kind of men it attracts, though I also don’t resent that type of femininity, it’s gorgeous but just not for me.

    In our times, while I’m not a big celebrity watcher there’s a few women who appear centered and lovely and comfortable with their femininity in ways I respect–Kate Middleton, Michelle Obama, Angelina Jolie, Natalie Portman and a few other young classy actresses. I know Angelina Jolie is a sort of polarizing figure for a lot of people but if you study her as a woman I think she’s fascinating. She has the sensual sex goddess thing going on, but as she’s had her family and been with Brad she’s also developed this really cool kind of femininity, this sort of a deep womanly dignity, that I wish more women would strive to emulate. Watch some interviews of her in her early 20s and then watch ones of her now–it’s a total transformation and it’s not just about getting older, IMO. I don’t know if she’s exactly “taken the red pill” but she’s said a lot of things that suggest she’s done her research on femininity, men and relationships. There’s an interview of her after she adopted Maddox where she said: “he’s made me a woman… He makes me feel warm and soft and open as a woman should be.” It’s so post-feminist and always stuck with me, and while I wouldn’t want to imitate her too closely, she carries herself in a way I find really cool now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Courtley

      It’s important for logical women to learn to be comfortable expressing emotion at least sometimes. That doesn’t mean we have to turn into drama queens, but it is a learned skill, and I think we need to learn to express our femininity in ways that are congruent with our natural personalities.

      I totally agree! It is a learned skill, and I’ll repeat what I said to Sassy. It should feel a bit risky. Expressing emotion means making oneself vulnerable, so if you can identify those feelings that scare you a little because they’re intimate, that’s the place to start, IMO.

      You may enjoy a couple of old posts I’ve written:

      Female Archetypes and the Men Who Love Them

      How to Be a Femme Fatale

  • Courtley

    @Susan

    “Agreed. There is a world of difference between a playful slap on the ass and slapping someone’s face. The latter is never playful, or perhaps it might be “danger play.”

    I think a lot of women long for a kind of passion and intensity that comes more from having sex with someone you’re in love with than with a stranger. I get that hookups can be an adrenaline rush, but without some emotion present you’re just left with the mechanics of sex. Love and sex are separate yet overlap in the brain, remember. You can have pleasurable sex without your “in love” part of the brain fired up…but that part of the brain seems to fire an especially intense craving for another person and I think a lot of young women are missing that emotional experience with their partners.

    http://www.thestar.com/living/article/1215666–love-and-sex-get-together-in-your-brain-map-shows-where-to-find-them

    I think the increasing penchant for violence in sex may have as much to do with trying to make up for this emotional deficit as it does with the lack of
    dominance in men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Courtley

      I get that hookups can be an adrenaline rush, but without some emotion present you’re just left with the mechanics of sex.

      This is a great insight re female sexuality. Because we generally don’t compartmentalize our emotions, sex without emotional intimacy is definitely subpar – we know that women have far fewer orgasms in casual sex. That means one has to “try harder,” i.e. up the ante, to achieve arousal. Just having sex with a hot guy you don’t know is not stimulating enough – adding in fantasy, rape play, etc. may be required to get the dopamine flowing.

      That article you linked is fascinating re brain activity for sex and love. I noticed the researchers were very surprised to find no gender differences.

  • Sai

    There are so many interesting comments here…

    @Richard Aubrey
    I salute you for your service to our country! :) I’m glad the USSR didn’t get us… And I agree about the no infections/pregnancy comment. One of the people I really liked in high school (platonically) told me “abstinence is the best condom.”

    @all my Trekkies
    YAY~
    Actually I still have a lot of episodes to catch up on, but I think there was an episode where Worf mentioned having to turn away female human pursuers because he didn’t want to cause them injury.

    Also, Ghostbusters reference is awesome.

    @Jackie
    “Ma, Ma, where’s my pa?
    Gone to the White House -HA, HA, HA!”

    Somebody else remembers seeing that! I’m so happy! I don’t know why I’d be happy about THAT, but I am. XD
    (You are welcome to order me to STFU if this question comes out wrong… but where did you get your corset/s? I have been curious about wearing one, but it couldn’t just be something decorative, it would have to provide, er, really good support. Is there a site you recommend? Shutting up now)

    And concerning the “hardcore” thing: I don’t know about all of it, but my best guess is that there’s so much information on the Web that some people might just be curious about trying some of what they’ve read about and/or seen. (Remember, folks: keep things safe, sane and consensual.)
    Also, what school had an entire event devoted to something like that? I can understand if it was sponsored and had at a nearby shop, but that just seems out of place in an institute of higher learning.

  • evilalpha

    @Susan Walsh

    Why would that increase rape? Are you saying that men tell themselves that women need to be liberated sexually and take it upon themselves to perform that service, in some bizarre twisted justification provided by feminism?

    That’s not what I meant. Let me explain.

    The feminist androgyny myth promotes mass sexual mis-communication and mis-interpretation between men and women. Why? Because when men internalize women as” men with vaginas ” those same men will subsequently project male motives and actions onto the motives and actions of women, exactly at the time when it is most absurd and dangerous to do so…during the sexual negotiation phase.

    What happens is this. Through the prism of androgyny “polite” becomes sexual interest. “Flirting” equals DTF. “Going out” is just carb loading for later fucking. “Making out” is just preparation for intercourse. And “intercourse” = fuck buddy because that’s what those thing mean when college guys do them.

    In contrast, when a man has a realistic view of women’s sexuality and gender difference he is more inclined to interpret female actions through the feminine. Which ultimately means “still” is fear/freezing, not a symptom of drunkenness. And a ballistic “No” is not needed to signal displeasure as is the case among men.

    So yes the gender lie is extremely harmful, but feminists rather than confess the lie, mitigate the damage by doing what they do best and that’s regulate and legislate men. So to the best of their ability they define all sex as rape, unless the guy has a notarized letter of consent signed by his “equal”

    Clear?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @evilalpha

      Through the prism of androgyny “polite” becomes sexual interest. “Flirting” equals DTF. “Going out” is just carb loading for later fucking. “Making out” is just preparation for intercourse. And “intercourse” = fuck buddy because that’s what those thing mean when college guys do them.

      In contrast, when a man has a realistic view of women’s sexuality and gender difference he is more inclined to interpret female actions through the feminine. Which ultimately means “still” is fear/freezing, not a symptom of drunkenness. And a ballistic “No” is not needed to signal displeasure as is the case among men.

      +1

      Clear, and brilliantly expressed, thanks.

  • evilalpha

    @July 16th.
    Orgasmicly versatile!!!!???? We are multi-orgasmic! Let’s see you beat that!

    Even half drunk, I can come twice inside a stranger via just PIV. Let’s see you beat that!

    And this isn’t a competition, but you did just illustrate how mythical androgyny is.

    Male Superiority = Orgasmic Versatility
    Female Superiority = Orgasmic Capacity

  • evilalpha

    Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school

    Lol. There are a million NYC girls, yet they all seem to be cut from the same cloth.

  • Kathy

    “Even half drunk, I can come twice inside a stranger via just PIV. Let’s see you beat that!”

    This is not a pissing competition, however, since ya’all want to get down to the nitty gritty…

    Yes, I have multiple orgasms.

    And no, subsequent orgasms are not painful!

    It’s all good. Bloody good!

    The last is not necessarily the best, neither is the first.

    Sometimes it is just a build up .. I have sort of learnt how to gauge it.

    Ya know, like I could go for 10 but the best one happens at 6, for example…. ;) so I’ll stop at that.. I just know!!!

    You can learn a lot about your body when you have been happily married to a wonderful bloke for 16 years. :)

  • Ramble

    It isn’t pulling from the ends, but more grabbing a clump with the palm (at the back of the head especially from a DS position) and just some moderate pressure. I can tell you hardly a day goes by without me smacking my fiancee on the ass, and she loves it.

    This is correct.

    Although, I have had more than one girl ask for more pressure in the hair pulling.

    If that is the case, then I’ve been witness to some damn good acting.

    And not just “acting”, but requesting things that I did not initiate.

    @RWC

    Color me judgmental, but a lot of the women being described in these posts (e.g., #467, 527, 528) sound like victims of internalized childhood sexual assault.

    The particular girl that I referenced was never assaulted. Of this, I am certain. However, she did have an interesting childhood, though, as far as I can tell, no more interesting than mine or anyone else I have known.

    @Ana

    some of them deeply religious monogamous married a virgin with only their husbands as sexual partners, so it was not something they particularly learned from the media

    Yeah, this girl was a virgin when we first started dating and she absolutely never watched porn or read romance novels.

    @Susan

    Your description doesn’t surprise me, I have felt all those things myself. Including the pretend rape – very arousing. That is different than getting off on being hit.

    Right. The girl I referenced had absolutely no interest in being hurt. Or, in being demeaned. However, she did want to experience male dominance.

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “3. Ass spanking: ubiquitious in porn, something men expect during sex, many women comply and enjoy this. I would note that most women are not into pain – I am talking about a playful slap here, not something that would leave a mark or bruise.”

    There is a lot in the middle, how about stinging redness?

    I think you’re *way* off here. Women often want this overtly, not only in response to male aggressive desires. I have plenty of proof!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Women often want this overtly, not only in response to male aggressive desires. I have plenty of proof!

      From a small sample, I trust? :)

      I agree with those who described sexuality as being on a spectrum. There are many, many people at every single point on that spectrum. What is clear and undeniable is that sexual stimuli have gotten more explicit and extreme over time, presumably to get the same results (satisfying orgasm). Sexual dysfunction is increasing, especially among males 18-25. IOW, we need a lot more priming than we used to to achieve orgasm. It’s not just porn, all of us are bombarded with sexual messages in our daily lives. Fashion trends alone provide men with constant views of breasts and legs as they commute or work!

      This would make a good topic for a post. I have not studied this in depth, but I do know there is a huge body of research on this question.

  • Kathy

    I have never been into pain myself.

    Like a bit of “take me I’m yours’ kind of dominant stuff.

    Like to be roughly taken..(especially by surprise~!) Like over the sofa, or the kitchen sink, for example.

    All pleasure and noooo pain!

    No slapping or hair pulling for me! ;)

  • unigirl

    I really feel what happened to Zach is mostly immaturity, sort of a commitment phobia you gradually grow out of, I remember in my teens I was really bad like that, I’d really like a guy for ages and then he’d start liking me back and maybe come over a bit soppy and I’d freak out and go off him, like I was just not mature enough to get into a real relationship when the prospect became too real or something. I wonder as well if it’s something to do with personality type, the reality of a relationship can never match up to your fantasy of it and you inevitibly end up feeling diappointed when you get a taste of a real one, so you withdraw and hope it matches better next time, I remember someone else here (Iggles?) saying they were the INFP idealist type, I’d be curious if they’d had similar experience. I don’t think it’s necessarily the promiscuous type girls who are that way either, I remember a friend of mine who has never been promiscuous being exactly the same. Of course as you mature you realise that you can never expect reality to be exactly like your ideal and relax a bit I think.

  • Abbot

    “hookups can be an adrenaline rush”

    ipso facto

    rape can be an adrenaline rush

  • Ramble

    Just having sex with a hot guy you don’t know is not stimulating enough – adding in fantasy, rape play, etc. may be required to get the dopamine flowing.

    But there is a flip side to that coin as well.

    Imagine you are in a loving relationship and you do want to feel some male dominance. And, you are confident that you can experience these things, like hair pulling and ass spanking, and know that this man will not hurt you, or abuse you or demean you. And that right after you experience that sexual release, you get to collapse into his chest and fall asleep in his arms.

    It can be just one more way of solidifying/testing/using your comfort and ease with him for your emotional benefit.

    She gets to be as slutty and whorish as she wants without any fear of being a slut or a whore.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Imagine you are in a loving relationship and you do want to feel some male dominance. And, you are confident that you can experience these things, like hair pulling and ass spanking, and know that this man will not hurt you, or abuse you or demean you. And that right after you experience that sexual release, you get to collapse into his chest and fall asleep in his arms.

      It can be just one more way of solidifying/testing/using your comfort and ease with him for your emotional benefit.

      She gets to be as slutty and whorish as she wants without any fear of being a slut or a whore.

      Of course! Safety and trust is key, that’s why a woman asking for this treatment with a stranger is a red flag. I think for most women, the display of dominance (and the opportunity to be submissive) is the turnon. Not pain.

  • Kathy

    “Of course! Safety and trust is key, that’s why a woman asking for this treatment with a stranger is a red flag. I think for most women, the display of dominance (and the opportunity to be submissive) is the turnon. Not pain.”

    Exactly, Susan!.

  • Courtley

    @Ramble

    Yeah, as Susan said, women asking for it to “spice things up” in a monogamous LTR or marriage might better fit the category of women who are craving more dominance/masculinity from their men. That is different than what I had in mind, which is young unattached women, often with little real, deep LTR experience, seeking this kind of sex through hooking-up or perhaps in finding a “dom” partner through the BDSM online community or something.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Unigirl, I understand what you are saying re: linking commitment-phobia and immaturity, but I think that there are situations in which commitment-phobia is the most rational strategy and that Zach may be in one of those environments.

    When confronting so-called “epistemic uncertainty”, for example, the best plan is frequently to try to experiment while keeping costs low and options open.

    For entrepreneurs, this may entail avoiding a detailed a priori business plan mentality and just getting an “MVP”—”minimum viable product”—out in front of potential customers (and then rapidly cycling through customer feedback-product modification loops until you have something that works well; aspiring PUAs who force themselves to approach hundreds of women are arguably doing a bit of this “nail it, then scale it” brute-force adaptation).

    For venture capital firms and hedge funds, this may mean making many small, limited-liability investments in different projects or instruments with the knowledge that most bets will lose money, some will break-even, and a very small percentage will turn out to be wildly successful winners.

    Perhaps some SMP environments are equally unfriendly to high-conviction, commitment-based strategies and encourage participants to look for escape hatches.

  • Abbot

    “a woman asking for this treatment with a stranger is a red flag”

    a woman asking for her body to be used with a stranger is a red flag on many levels

  • Courtley

    @Susan

    Just read and enjoyed the ‘Female Archetypes’ post. I need to dig through the older archives more!

  • Ian

    I don’t think this is necessarily the case. It is entirely possible that porn has opened up women’s minds to new behaviors…I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.

    I’m not so sure. The Karma Sutra is thousands of years old. Here’s a chapter on how to sex slap, also biting and scratching. Also, field report; low-N women, who’ve never watched porn, recent immigrants from male-dominant cultures, are not at all immune to this kind of predilection. Secular Americans have been less so.

    I’d put it more that stress/fear/pain can be pleasurable, to a least a certain type of woman. If it’s in them, it’s in them. To me, the murk is more when people use fantasy to conjure up and refine the urge until it becomes something odder than would have cropped up in everyday life. I’ve become wary of intuitive women, for that reason.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian

      Thanks for that link to the Kama Sutra. The footnote clearly states that women vary greatly in their predilections, there is no generalizing.

      I also noticed that nowhere is the face listed as a target zone for striking, and women are also encouraged to return blows upon being struck. It is the fight, or conflict, that is presumed sexy, not the infliction of pain by one party.

      SEXUAL intercourse can be compared to a quarrel, on account of the contrarieties of love and its tendency to dispute.

  • unigirl

    Bastiat,
    I’m curious, did you mean the best strategy for men and women in these environments? (I was talking about girls being commitment phobic in my comment btw, not sure if I was clear about that) – I can definately see how that strategy could work quite well for men, what would be the female equivalent of the PUA refining his technique? Would it be like a girl just playing the numbers game, getting semi-involved with some, but not getting too hung up initially? I’ve a friend who pretty much always does that, and she’s never withough a man for long, not always good-eggs but I can see in that sense it does work.
    And the escape hatches, is that like it’s assumed it’s best to be the party that escapes first?

  • unigirl

    Also I just had a little thought about the hair pulling, people are kind of split on that like on the one hand some people think it’s kind of up there with the violent stuff and the other just kind of playful, normal or whatever.
    It Popped into my head about how people always said about children if a little boy pulled a little girls hair it meant he fancied her, that kind of teasing sort of thing. Also there’s something about hair I think, girls are always touching their hair (I know I am), there’s just something about someone else touching your hair, it evokes different feelings, like if someone strokes it it’s relaxing, you play with it when you’re nervous, I don’t know I maybe haven’t articulated as well as some could but I just wonder if there’s something in it.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Hi, unigirl: my bad, I missed that you were talking about female strategies.

    The approach can probably work reasonably well for both men and women; it’s meant to avoid a catastrophic loss, which men and women might define differently. As a trade-off, it probably gives up some opportunities for success along the way.

    For some/most women, a worst-case scenario might be a pump-and-dump wherein an attractive player pretends that he is interested in an LTR, the woman becomes emotionally involved, the player gets the sex that is his true goal, and then the player flees and the woman feels used.

    However, a man’s equivalent worst-case scenario is not normally going to be being pump-and-dumped by a hot girl (“she just used me for sex” is a delicious, flattering concept for most men, as it implies that the man’s “stud” genetic material—not his willingness to share emotional and economic resources—was what she coveted). The man’s worst-case is probably going to be getting inextricably linked to a bad SMP bet and then being sexually and male-ego-validation deprived for an extended period of time.

    The differing definitions of relationship catastrophe might mean that the female equivalent of a venture capital approach would have lots of prospects, but little economic investment, little emotional investment, and little sex until a star had revealed himself, while the male version would have the prospects and the limited economic and emotional investments, but quite a lot of sex.

    The two would collide in the SMP with “hook-up culture”, and then we inevitably get into some semantics: if the woman kisses many of these prospects and the definition of hooking-up includes kissing w/o pre-established commitment in place, than the woman could be seen as a hook-up culture participant. If “hook-up” means full-blown penetrative sex is involved, then the woman could be seen as exceedingly chaste.

  • Ramble

    I think for most women, the display of dominance (and the opportunity to be submissive) is the turnon. Not pain.

    Yes.

    The girl in question was no masochist. She simply got to feel various feelings, none of which were extreme (IMO), in a safe and loving environment.

  • unigirl

    Bastiat thanks, that makes perfect sense.

    I wonder though with Zach’s girl, I was kind of thinking along the lines of maybe it wasn’t so much the beta itself that threw her off, as maybe she’s of the type that has the strong longing for that closeness on the one hand but that idealized idea of what it should be/feel like that, which reality just can’t live upto, but that she hasn’t reached the point of really realising this and deciding which she wants, the real intimacy or the idea of it. Maybe that’s why she or a girl like her might withdraw when they actually get closer to the real relationship, if that makes sense.

  • Courtley

    @Ian

    Well, I’d say I’m an iNtuitive (according to Meyers-Briggs, anyway) but definitely not one who fantasizes about pain and humiliation. /:

    But here’s the other thing: Besides not wanting to try BDSM, I also have never had this expectation that every sexual fantasy enjoyed in the privacy of my or anyone else’s own mind HAS to be expressed with a partner…or else you’re like, suuuuuper repressed and everything. I’m all for people trying new things and being creative sexually–especially important in LTRs–but there is this weird idea out there that if you fantasize about something, you MUST want to try or experience it in real life or else you’re not sexually liberated enough. Which is just weird to me, because real life and intimacy with another person is so different than what goes on inside your head and I don’t think the two have to align perfectly. I kind of thought this was like, just basic sexual common sense, but it’s amazing how “living out your fantasies/telling your partner your fantasies” is seen as such a necessary component of a healthy sex life now. Sometimes I just want some fantasies to STAY fantasies.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Uni, here is an analogy that might play in well with what you are saying: traders use stop-loss points or triggers that are meant to prevent them from getting “married” to a losing position and being unable to exit and realize the loss.

    So Trader Unigirl buys a stock at $100. She likes the company and believes it will increase in share value, but she recognizes that things go wrong and that the hamster will tell her not to sell (“Just stay in, Uni, it will come around eventually”), so she sets a stop-loss at, say, $90. If the stock were to fall to $90, she is willing to concede that her analysis was somehow flawed and she has pre-planned an exit at that price. *Assuming that she can in fact get out at $90*, she’ll eat a $10 loss on the trade, of course, but she won’t ever be in a position where she just sits there with a deer-in-headlights expression and watches the stock price completely collapse as the company files for bankrupcty.

    But what if Unigirl was very skittish and set the stop loss trigger at $99.50? We might say that this was hypersensitive, that she had not given the trade any “room to breathe”, since a stock could easily fall $.50 on pure noise, just random market fluctuations, and she’d then get kicked out of the trade needlessly. The stock could then return to $100 a bit later and she might get back in, then get out again as the stock dipped back to $99.50, then get back in and buy at $100, etc.

    She could suffer a long string of small losses which could accumulate over time, but worst part might be that the psychological wear-and-tear of a slow bleed like this could be deeply and insidiously destructive in terms of making her more and more exhausted and gunshy over time.

    Perhaps people that use the equivalent of stops to limit their loss exposures in relationships should be careful not to set the stops so close that they end up bailing out prematurely for trivial “noise” reasons. IME, people in big city SMP environments can have incentives to set their stops too close (and may see a constant churn that is tiring in itself).

  • J

    I don’t think this is necessarily the case. It is entirely possible that porn has opened up women’s minds to new behaviors…I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.

    Ian: I’m not so sure. The Karma Sutra is thousands of years old

    J: I’d bet there are a number of factors at play. One is that some people are just sort of tired for this sort of behavior. The areas of the brain that regulate pain, sex and, oddly enough, religious impulses are close together and some neurophysiologists theorize that wires get crossed frequently. (Imagine a self-flagellating religious who gets off sexually.) No doubt the easy access to porn makes information and images of this stuff more accessible to people in whom those impulses might have been suppressed in less open times and takes down a lot of the inhibitions that people might once have had. A lot of sexual expression that was considered deviant 50 years ago has been normalized.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Bastiat…the analogy with stop-loss orders is interesting. The stay-in-or-get-out decision is also analogous to limit-setting in feedback control systems: for example, if your thermostat tries to control the temperature TOO precisely (by setting the “turn air conditioner ON” and “turn air conditioner OFF” contacts too close together), then the thing will turn itself on and off several times a minute, wearing itself out and also driving everyone in the house crazy.

  • unigirl

    Bastiat, 100%, so you get out early/bow out becuase you’re scared of getting trapped, hurting yourself, hurting someone else, so you bail at the first sign. That really struck a chord.

  • J

    But here’s the other thing: Besides not wanting to try BDSM, I also have never had this expectation that every sexual fantasy enjoyed in the privacy of my or anyone else’s own mind HAS to be expressed with a partner…or else you’re like, suuuuuper repressed and everything.

    I too am intuitive, and I strongly agree. I suspect that many of things we fantasize about are much better left as fantasies and would in fact be disappointing if real. I can understand the BDSM fantasy or the rape fantasy as a desire to be swept away by some gand passion, but I doubt the reality would match the fantasy if one actually acted them out. I could, for example, ask my DH to put on a ski mask, sneak into the house, tie me up and “rape” me, but I sort of doubt it would be hot. It would probably just feel stupid.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Courtley, I know what you’re talking about with regard to different types of femininity, and I encourage every girl to find ther own style. When I was younger I had “tried out” many masks to see which fit me. I came to realize that there isn’t a single one that truly defines me, and that I like being multi-faceted. For example, the “cute” thing isn’t what I use to seduce my husband. It’s more for oxytocin/bonding.

    There is another component of femininity, which is as I said before congruence. It’s a sort of quiet self-assurance that you are who you are, and you like who you are. I don’t wear makeup because it’s not who I am, and I am more comfortable without it. Other girls may be very different and feel more at ease with makeup. That’s all fine and good, because it’s about finding your own equilibrium.

    The same thing applies to sexuality and sensuality. I know what I like, and I don’t care what other girls like. The pain play is not for me, but if other girls like it, that’s cool. I do think guys shouldn’t generalize their sexual experience with girl A to girl B. People are still different despite some basic similarities. I personally acknowledge that there is tremendous power in “darkness.” It just isn’t for me.

  • Zach

    To elaborate on what happened with that 6th-date girl, we were texting one day (at her initiation) and I jokingly accused her of being a homophobe. It was one of those things where she said “he’s not gay because of x” and I went with “oh, so you’re saying gay people can’t do x?”. Kept going back and forth, and she was insisting she wasn’t, so I sort of relented by saying “Well maybe you didn’t say it, but it’s more fun if I construe it that way”. To me, that’s not really very beta (it’s not an apology), but it’s dialing back the alpha just a little bit. I assumed after 6 dates that I could get away with that just a little. The next night she sent me an immediate shit test: “food coma help” at 9 PM. I ignored it, and responded the next morning at 10 AM just with “I trust you’ve recovered from your food coma?”. Frankly, I thought that was pretty unconcerned-sounding (and I wasn’t concerned, seriously who texts for “help” from eating), but she just responded with a “yes” a few hours later, and it all went downhill from there. Then after cancelling our next date, she booty called me at 3 AM. I told her we were done seeing each other (meaning I wasn’t going to make any more effort), but if she was in the mood at 3 AM again to let me know.

    So go ahead, parse that, and tell me how “beta” or “alpha” you think I was. @Susan, I”m aware that I’m fishing in the hypergamous end of the pool, but there are plenty of girls who go out to bars who are really looking for a boyfriend. As you have noted, it’s one of the major “scripts” to follow, and a lot of girls don’t know where else to look. Being passive, and hoping for a pickup in line at Starbucks or being introduced by a friend can leave a girl waiting a long, long time, even an attractive one. That’s the reason I generally only ask for numbers (other advantages being you can get multiple numbers in one night, and do it in 10-15 minutes vs. investing a whole night trying to take a girl home and maybe failing). Getting a girl’s number indicates a prospective date, but is not at all a DLV. Also, I’m lazy, and keeping a conversation full of tension and on point for an hour while you try and maneuver a girl home from a bar is kind of exhausting.

  • Zach

    Also, I had reasons to suspect both hypergamy and more traditional dating. We had quite a few friends in common (not how we met; I picked her up at a charity event), went to rival high schools, etc, so I knew a lot of her background. By her own admission, she was a big party girl in college (lots of blow), but said she’d simmered down since. I didn’t really know about/believe the “simmered down” part, so that was my warning about hypergamy. On the other hand, she was a pretty traditional WASP/wealthy/conservative-dressing, career-oriented (worked in finance, taking GMAT, applying for MBA) girl who had multiple past LTRs. I think those two competing narratives threw me off a bit. And for those who are going the path of “she milked you for the dates”, she insisted upon splitting every single time (even bringing cash in particular to a cash-only bar). I let her a couple times too. Also, we did sleep together, so if it was a milking I got my end of it as well.

  • Iggles

    @ Courtley:

    I’m all for people trying new things and being creative sexually–especially important in LTRs–but there is this weird idea out there that if you fantasize about something, you MUST want to try or experience it in real life or else you’re not sexually liberated enough.

    This +1000!

    I am also an intuitive type (INFP) and am not into pain play.

    I don’t think every fantasy has to be played out in real life either. I’m a creative person and as such, I have a very rich inner life. I read and written about tons of things I’ve never experienced in real life. As far as sexual fantasies go, there are things I find arousing that I have no interest in acting out in real life! (For example, I’ve read gay male erotica since my teens. Does this mean I want to role play as a gay couple with my partner? Definitely not!)

    Which is just weird to me, because real life and intimacy with another person is so different than what goes on inside your head and I don’t think the two have to align perfectly.

    Being with another person is intrinsically different than any fantasy you have in you head IMO. I get the idea of having a fantasy you would like to fulfill with your partner, but the real thing is usually a different experience (either it’s better or worse).

  • unigirl

    Not even beta at all really, can’t really understand it tbh, was she actually booty-calling you at 3, or just like, drunkenly dialling because you were on her mind maybe? I just don’t get why you’d booty call someone you’d held back from having sex with. Sounds like she doesn’t have a clue what she wants.

  • J

    Thanks for that link to the Kama Sutra.

    I have to say that I was weirded out by the link–and not so much by the idea that sexual slapping exists but by the idea that there was a prescribed technique for it, calculated down to the categories of appropriate sounds a woman might make in response. For something that’s supposed to increase passion, it seems sort of contrived.

  • Just a thought

    Zach, IDK, I had a similar exchange with a guy I was friends with. As for that exchange, it was not interested/boring. The initial redirection was funny, but after that it became a lot of denying and denying more. We haven’t texted each other since and it certainly bored me to the point that I don’y know what I’d talk to him about . Perhaps it was the exchange that was the problem.
    Anyway, Zach, I can only see two, maybe three things.
    1. If you have to get into this type of conversation with a girl, you don’t have a lot in common. I believe you might have mentioned somewhere about having a lot of intellectual interests?? I’m betting ( could be wrong) that this girl wasn’t stimulating you intellectually that way, therefore boredom. If she didn’t get bored, you probably would.
    2. No matter how you talk about girls going to bars looking for relationships, you must know that you are limiting yourself to a smaller pool. Hypergamous women can be in many LTRs, in fact many LTRs are the hall mark of a hypergamous woman. Even more, as I remember from a previous post, you are looking for a girl who enjoys a party, is on the upper echelons of attractive, (6 and above ), and can drink and have a good time. Say there are a hundred girls, 20 of them are in hookup culture, 10 go to bars and are not in hookup culture. 50 don’t really go to bars all that much and the last 20 are in a committed relationship, you are fishing heavily in that STR environment. Just because a girl works at a charity doesn’t mean anything (trust me).
    3. The other option is perhaps you weren’t what this girl was looking for. She’s going to business school, she may hope to meet guys there. She may have just gotten out of a long term relationship and not be ready for another. She may have another guy on the side and is not invested in you. I don’t know.

  • Jonny

    “11. Investigate his interests.”

    I think “Acknowledge his interests” is good enough for me. I prefer that she doesn’t know anything about my interests for the simple fact that …

    1. I don’t want to talk about it.

    2. I am not interested in what you might have to say about it.

    3. It is none of your business.

    It’s not that I’m secretive, but usually my interests are my own and it has nothing to do with her. Her attempt to figure things out is not attractive. It take a lot of effort for me to explain things to her.

    Sometimes, I may be interested in one thing and it wanes and I pick up another or I may come back to an old interest. In the end, I am more experienced with such things and don’t want someone with fleeting interest mucking things up.

    The exception is that it might take up valuable “couples times”. I will make an effort to bring her up to speed. Otherwise, it isn’t worth the time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think “Acknowledge his interests” is good enough for me. I prefer that she doesn’t know anything about my interests for the simple fact that …

      1. I don’t want to talk about it.

      2. I am not interested in what you might have to say about it.

      3. It is none of your business.

      This made me laugh. I briefly dated one guy who always had errands to run at midnight. He was very secretive. He was an engineer who was into Civil War reenactment, so he didn’t strike me as the shady type. I ruled out drug dealing. Ultimately, I decided that he was running guns for the IRA. It was all very strange and ended quickly.

  • Jonny

    “25. Never go into a relationship with an idea of changing a man into what you really want.”

    Doesn’t this go back to the original question of “Make Him Your Boyfriend”? For what reason if not marriage material?

    It should also be taken a step further. Is he good Father material to your future children.

    Of course, in modern society, we seem to have children before marriage as well so the question should be hand in hand with earning potential. Is he good Husband AND Father AND Provider material?

  • Zach

    @justathought

    Re: 1. We actually did have quite a bit in common. This was honestly a joke that I made while she was describing her day at work (an intern who went to my high school had shadowed her, which is how the discussion came about). I often have shallow and farcical conversations with people I have a lot in common with. It’s not unusual. She was an art history major in college, and we had long discussions about different schools of art, about her work in finance, about her desire to work for an art fund, etc.

    Re: 2. Hahahaha she doesn’t work at a charity. This was the annual benefit for the Wildlife Conservation Foundation at the NYC Zoo. Basically 500 or so people 35 and under (avg age probably 27) get dressed up and pay for a 5-hour open bar to get hammered while surrounded by animals (and other pretty young things). It’s honestly one of my favorite parties of the year, and always has a phenomenal array of hot, young, smart girls.

    Re: 3. Could very well be true. She did give me the whole “I’m very busy” speech when cancelling date 6, but being very busy (which she was, at work and with GMAT etc) and not carving out 1 hour in 7 days are different things. I actually laughed at her and told her my ego wasn’t so fragile that she had to give me one of the oldest excuses in the book. She then sent me that 3 AM text the following weekend.

  • Zach

    Also, re: bars. I’d be shocked, SHOCKED, if only 20% of the 20-something, single female population in NYC frequented bars. I think it’s likely around 50% or higher. So I think the pool is larger than you think. But yes, I am limiting myself. And it’s not easy. But I don’t expect it to be easy. I will only date a girl who’s enthusiastic about going out and socializing on the weekends instead of staying in for a movie/wine. Not that I’m opposed to the latter scenario, but once in a while, not frequently. So I pre-screen for this mostly by meeting the girls who are already out at bars, ie those who’ve demonstrated they like to go out and socialize/have fun.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Sometimes I just want some fantasies to STAY fantasies.

    Intituive here and I agree too. Fantasies are sometimes enjoyable on itself and you don’t want to go further also there some like public sex that are downright almost impossible to make due to logistics and the consequences might not be worth it for an orgasm.

    I could, for example, ask my DH to put on a ski mask, sneak into the house, tie me up and “rape” me, but I sort of doubt it would be hot. It would probably just feel stupid.

    Most of my married friends told me that donning those things end up with both of you laughing as is trying to do some role playing. Is better to go with what comes natural forced things don’t work 9 times out of 10.

    I have to say that I was weirded out by the link–and not so much by the idea that sexual slapping exists but by the idea that there was a prescribed technique for it, calculated down to the categories of appropriate sounds a woman might make in response. For something that’s supposed to increase passion, it seems sort of contrived.

    I think there are speculations that the Kama Sutra was done by a virgin monk from second hand tales so he/she might had added a bit of “flowery” language to certain things he/she was recording, FYI.

    Ultimately, I decided that he was running guns for the IRA. It was all very strange and ended quickly.

    My little brother is like that, the man always answer yes, no, can’t tell…, his facebook is under a nickname and he doesn’t accept anyone he doesn’t know and doesn’t even picks up phone numbers he doesn’t know the few times I call him I need to sent him a message so he knows I’m going to call. But is all smoke and mirrors he just has a higher level of paranoia that I did.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Zach

    As far as possibilities, here’s what came to mind after reading your description of the “6 date” girl.

    1. She was never seriously interested in you to begin with.

    2. She was offended by you calling her a “homophobe”, jokingly or not.

    3. She wasn’t looking for a relationship, so she pushed back on the progression of events by cancelling a date and subsequently booty calling you. She put the brakes on the seemingly forming relationship, in her mind. This is the one that strikes me as the most likely.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    COMMENT BY JACKIE:

    @J
    “@Ana and Jackie
    People have too much of the wrong stuff and not enough of the right stuff in 21st century America.”
    ====

    Your comment reminds me, J, of an older (grad) student from college. She was really dangerously overweight– I’m guessing around 400+ lbs. She couldn’t even wear “normal” shoes, they had just kind of expanded to boat-like devices on her feet, adhered with rubberbands going around them.

    Even her clothing– I remember seeing her in kind of sack-like garb. This sounds really weird but you couldn’t really even identify whether it was she was wearing. And she would always wear a colored kerchief on her head, to try and distract your eye from the rest of her.

    I digress. The point is: When mentioning her to my landlady, LL said, She’s probably starving. I said, What?!? How so?

    My landlady replied that her body may be stuffed with junk, but her system was starved for nutrients, vitamins and proteins. She made the comparison of a person on a desert island with only soda to drink, ultimately dying of thirst in a horrible irony.

    Anyway, this is what I thought about in response to your comment, J. Stuffed to the brink with the unhealthy and still literally starving to death.
    @J “@Ana and Jackie People have too much of the wrong stuff and not enough of the right stuff in 21st century America.” ==== :cry: Your comment reminds me, J, of an older (grad) student from college. She was really dangerously overweight– I’m guessing around 400+ lbs. She couldn’t even wear “normal” shoes, they had just kind of expanded to boat-like devices on her feet, adhered with rubberbands going around them. Even her clothing– I remember seeing her in kind of sack-like garb. This sounds really weird but you couldn’t really even identify whether it was she was wearing. And she would always wear a colored kerchief on her head, to try and distract your eye from the rest of her. I digress. The point is: When mentioning her to my landlady, LL said, She’s probably starving. I said, What?!? How so? My landlady replied that her body may be stuffed with junk, but her system was starved for nutrients, vitamins and proteins. She made the comparison of a person on a desert island with only soda to drink, ultimately dying of thirst in a horrible irony. Anyway, this is what I thought about in response to your comment, J. Stuffed to the brink with the unhealthy and still literally starving to death. :(

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Zach
    I agree with you that many girls who go to bars are not promiscuous. In fact, among the young people I know, it’s the assumed plan on many weekend nights if people don’t have dates. It’s just where post-college kids congregate. The challenge is to separate the girls with a long-term orientation from the girls with a short-term orientation. This girl is short-term oriented.

    Here’s my .02 on what you’ve described:

    1. Your banter was not beta. I mean, how much of an asshole are you supposed to be? You engaged in some playful teasing, I think that’s alpha.

    2. Food coma help? WTF? Perhaps this was meant as an invitation rather than a shit test. When you didn’t respond, she took it as rejection. Hard to say, that’s a weird, random text.

    IDK, her whole approach strikes me as Principle of Least Interest. It sounds like a struggle for hand. Flaking, booty calling you, it’s like she’s saying, “You do not get to call the shots.”

    But the BIG thing is this: a big party girl in college who did lots of blow

    This girl has STR written all over her. Being waspy, wealthy or career oriented doesn’t mean a thing. Having past LTRs doesn’t mean much either if she was “dating” a manwhore coke addict. She’s impulsive, risk-seeking, sassy and making zero effort. Whether she’s playing games or not interested, the result is the same. You were right to drive on.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    COMMENT BY JACKIE

    @Sai (585)

    Yay! Obscure trivia fans, unite!!!
    It’s so funny to go back and read the taunts and teasing from centuries ago. I know people like to view the past through a gauzy lens of romanticism, but human nature has always been thus!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      COMMENT BY JACKIE

      SORRY I’M LOSING YOUR EMOTICONS!

      @BB (616)
      Wow, that was a really fascinating analogy– I have honestly never considered that perspective. Well played, sir!

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    COMMENT BY JACKIE

    @Susan (594)

    Those posts are awesome! I *love* the pics– esp. the one from Casablanca and remember seeing those exact outfits at an exhibition somewhere.

    Also– did you notice how many different kinds of “looks” were considered beautiful on the How To Be a Femme Fatale post? They are all very beautiful but I don’t get the “cookie cutter” feeling that I do from today.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Late to the dinner table as always. Lots of good sensible stuff here.

    “Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.”

    I have always been stunned the number of women I’ve encountered unaware of this no no. Whenever it’s happened in a relationship of my own, from that moment on it’s always just been a matter of a counting the hours until my parole…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve restored comments as best I can. Many apologies if your comment got zapped. The hosting company had assured me they would do this in the early a.m. hours…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Byron

      I have always been stunned the number of women I’ve encountered unaware of this no no.

      This is a case of pure projection due to cluelessness about how guys think. Jealousy is not fun, but it gets women more invested and revved up for female intrasexual competition. I was really surprised when I first read how much men hate that feeling. But every guy here has agreed with you.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Wow, thanks for rescuing my comments!!!

    Here are some emoticons for you:
    :mrgreen:
    :-)
    8-)
    :-D
    ;-)
    :razz:

    Thank you again!

  • Jackie

    @Zach

    Hey Zach,
    Very sorry to hear the news about 6-Date. :( And anyone who is giving you a hard time for your generosity about paying for dates and some “milking” you (ugh! skeezy description) is being a jerk!

    I am not understanding a couple of things:

    Why did you continue to see someone who had done a lot of blow? I would be very, very leery and definitely ask questions, as my red flag alerter would be pinging like crazy.

    Also: You had six dates (over 6 weeks, I presume?). If you were dating for a LTR, how are you not sussing out character via conversations all the while? It doesn’t have to be pointed, but you can glean a lot from the way from her narrative.

    It seems to me that you are looking for certain behaviors– which is great– but not looking for good character as the underpinning. Can you describe the character of the girl you are seeking, so you can identify it when you actually find it? Because even if this girl has EVERYTHING and the character is not there, the relationship won’t survive.

    Something you will despise under the cut ;-)
    ==========
    Zach, as mentioned earlier I am NOT a new age “hippie” by any score of the imagination. The contemplation and alone time has made sense to me, Susan and Jason 773, but maybe isn’t your answer.

    I *have* observed this to be true, though: Your consciousness is the substance of your world.

    In non-”hippie” speak: Whatever is going on inside your thoughts, beliefs and consciousness will show up in your life. Sassy is working out her alpha issues, femininity, and vulnerability showing up in the guys she dates. I’m working out my low-self-esteem (thanks, N grandmother!) in my neuroses about appearance. You say you’re looking for a LTR by deploying STR tactics and casual sex. You say you want something different but refuse to even think about changing.

    All of us: There are not just issues, but whole huge parts of ourselves that we are in the dark about. And until we understand them, nothing is going to change. That is why I referenced the famous Santayana quote, Those who refuse to remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

    Okay, you can go back to thinking I “reek” of hippiedom now! I am imagining you saying it in the voice of Eric Cartman. ;)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Susan,

    yep, it’s like a freezing cold shower – all desire just leaves, completely, & you look at the woman with new, very wary, eyes.

    And, like I say, after that its just a matter of time.

  • Zach

    @Jackie

    I have plenty of friends who’ve done drugs, some more than others. Quite of few of these friends I consider to be of very high character. Trustworthy, smart, reliable, etc. Doing drugs recreationally and being a drug addict are not the same thing. Now personally, I don’t really do any drugs, but you’d probably have to say booze is my anti-drug. When I party, I drink instead of getting high. And arguments could be made that that’s worse in the long run than getting high every so often.

    Secondly, re: investigating her character. I was. As I mentioned, we had a LOT of mutual friends, and I talked to quite a few of them about her. There were no major red flags thrown up by any, and as she had mentioned, most of them agreed she had calmed down since college. One thing I think you’re missing is that wanting a girl who loves going out and partying/concerts/restaurants, etc, I’m not looking for a puritan in other aspects. Everyone makes mistakes, so I’m not going to rule a girl out because she got too drunk too often senior year. Now if she got too drunk and slept around, that’s one thing, but to me partying hard isn’t a dealbreaking offense.

    And I’m curious by what you mean in that I’m pursuing STR strategies. Personally, I wasn’t aware that going on one-on-one dates with girls at bars, restaurants, bowling (great dating spot), etc is a STR strategy. I may meet these girls at bars on the weekends, but when I do I get their numbers and then ask them out the next week for a sober, relaxed date. If you know of a better way to do things, let me know. I do on occasion take girls home directly from bars. I don’t intend to date (the vast majority) of those women. However, it can be fun, and it doesn’t interfere with anything else. Where we part ways is that you think that my having casual sex with a girl on Saturday prevents me from going on a dinner date with another girl on Wednesday. I don’t view that to be the case.

    If you think I shouldn’t be meeting people in bars, I think we part ways there on what types of people we’re interested in, as well as how to meet them. As I’ve mentioned, I want to date a woman who is comfortable going to bars and being in social settings. Secondly, bars are where the single women are. As Susan said, for most young single women in cities, they are the default plan for a weekend night. Avoiding them would be like planning a lion-hunting expedition in France. The only lions you’d find would be in zoos.

    Re: hippie comments. I spend plenty of time alone. However, I rate the expression “finding yourself” up there with “achieving your bliss” (the 7th google result for it is a Deepak Chopra article). To me, it is a wishy-washy, vague expression that means absolutely nothing. I “find myself” every day, by living my life. Again, maybe this stems from a complete lack of spirituality and a strong focus on logical, data and evidence-supported thinking, but I’ve never found myself sitting around, lying in the sun and experiencing an epiphany about “who I am as a person”. Now if you’d suggested something practical, like maybe therapy, or learning a skill to improve myself (take some Dale Carnegie classes, practice public speaking), which certainly falls under the realm of personal development, I probably would be more receptive. But just sitting around thinking about things isn’t going to change much about who I am. I think about things all the time; it’s one of my favorite hobbies. Be it the Fed’s latest QE plan or how I handled a conversation with my father, I’m constantly evaluating my actions and the world around me, and make changes accordingly. I make plenty of changes to improve my situation. I’m currently applying to business school to advance my career. This is a result of my not wanting to continue in my current line of work. Knowing that, I then evaluated my options to change it. I decided b school made the most sense for me, after doing lots and lots of research and having many conversations with people who’ve been through it. However, I didn’t just sit around all day expecting that in a moment of silence, I would somehow discover how to change my situation. I realized the problem, evaluated solutions, and decided on a course of action to solve it.

    I don’t see an issue with how I’m approaching finding an LTR. I already found one, it just didn’t work out. Finding someone you want to date is very, very hard work. So the fact that it’s difficult isn’t a reason to change. It should be difficult. I don’t want to date somebody just to date them. I get laid when I want (pretty much), and I’m not violently unhappy being single. It’s a good deal of fun. If it takes me a year to find someone I want to date, and who wants to date me, then so be it. My issue is not I can’t find anyone in the latter category. I’ve turned away quite a few girls in the past couple years who wanted me to be their boyfriend. The issue is that feeling must be mutual, and as a 25 year old with options, I’m not settling any time soon.

  • Zach

    P.S. If my problem was that I haven’t found any girls who want to date me, then I’d lend your criticism more credence. However, that’s not been the issue. And if you’re going to say “not any girls of the type you want”, plenty of them were girls of the type I want. My last girlfriend ticked almost every single box. However, as I said, no settling at my age and with my options. That makes it hard, but at 25, so be it. If I’m 35 and I really, really want to get married, but can’t find anyone, then maybe I re-evaluate. However, and this is going to sound callous, the older I get, at least through my late 20s/early 30s, the more that equation tips in my favor.

    Good lord that was long. You pushed a couple buttons there (magical thinking, problem-solving, incompatibility of male casual sex with relationships).

  • Zach

    PPS

    Last one, as Susan has noted, there actually is, up to a point, a positive correlation between a man’s N and his desirability. It may not be fair, but sleeping around will help me as much as hurt me in finding the right girl (pre-selection).

  • unigirl

    I’m curious wrt male jealousy, my only serious relationship was with someone ridiculously jealous, and it didn’t seem to put him off (but I think he probably did know deep down it was his issue)

    Is it the fact you know or suspect she’s trying to make you jealous, or just the feeling itself that puts you off?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Unigirl,

    I don’t think in this instance it’s the jealousy itself that’s the issue, but a woman USING that to try build attraction in a man. As Susan said, this can often get girls intrasexual competitive urges sparked up, & so make the man seem more desirable, but this does not work so well in reverse. It’s one of those interesting biological sex differences we can observe in our outward behaviours.

    The feeling of jealousy itself is pretty damn ghastly, but can be – & usually is – an intrinsic part of being very deeply in love with someone, so you just have to accept it & work with it. The trying to make a man jealous, on the other hand, is something very different, & (in me, anyway) severs what emotional connection is there – it makes a man reconsider all he’s ever thought good about the woman before & rules them out for any kind of long-lasting bond.

  • Mike C

    Is it the fact you know or suspect she’s trying to make you jealous, or just the feeling itself that puts you off?

    Both, but the former is far more problematic as it virtually guarantees creating resentment even if the guy chooses to remain in the relationship.

  • Abbot

    “Jealousy is not fun…I was really surprised when I first read how much men hate that feeling. ”

    That is common among men worldwide, it can come from any direction and there is no reason for men to suppress the feeling when its as simple as avoiding women who would bring it out

  • Abbot

    “it’s like a freezing cold shower ”

    Men are unwilling [unable] to commit to a woman on the basis that she is desired sexually by other men

  • Mike C

    Cosign Byron at 652

    Expanding on my previous statement, I think internally self-generated jealousy often occurs when there is large SMV differential between the guy and girl and the guy is acutely aware of it. That is one reason I believe those types of relationships are unstable. It was Helen of Troy that started a war, not Plain Jane. With a really beautiful woman, she is essentially going to have to play more of a reassuring role rather than one of trying to instigate jealousy.

    On some level, trying to make the guy jealous is an attempt to reignite a competitive dynamic. Guys don’t like this. We want to know we have won you, its over, we can check that box, and move on. We don’t want to feel like we are in a neverending phase on continuing to have to win you. Obviously, not being a woman, I can’t speak for a woman’s desire but I sense there is a love/hate dynamic where jealously has a negative side, but that the female also takes pleasure in rewinning the guy.

  • unigirl

    But why would you want a woman who wasn’t desired sexually by other men, then you probably wouldn’t sexually desire her yourself? I don’t know about that, you seem to get plenty of guys that like having a girl on their arm that other men eye up.

    I think with the woman how she feels about the jealousy would depend on her confidence in herself and her ability to ‘win you,’ I other girls though would just bow out.

  • unigirl

    * I think other girls though would just bow out, even.

  • Just1X

    an attempt to ignite jealousy in me just sets off my “She’s trying to tool me alarm”, and always has – was I always partially red-pill? I wonder…interesting thought.

    Drama for the sake of drama has aways been a big no-no for me, I hate soaps because you always get the end of one episode with,”I hate you Mrs Mangle. I wish you were dead!”. Next episode? Best friends again. Screw that for a game of soldiers.

    Really doesn’t work like that for me (most men?). I’m not vindictive (life is too short), but that exchange would limit any relationship from then on (for a long time), as a matter of self protection.

    To get a little evo-psych. Maybe in cavemen you’d not trust the other guy to have your back in battle, or the humt? Have a beer with him? fine (not vindictive). Put your life in his hands? nah. Cavewomen, on the other hand, how much do you need to trust the woman gathering berries next to you?

    Perhaps trust works differently in men and women? Invoking jealousy deliberately as a game? that’s betrayal as far as I am concerned – you’re playing with me, bye bye.

  • Mike C

    But why would you want a woman who wasn’t desired sexually by other men, then you probably wouldn’t sexually desire her yourself?

    This is a critical point. Of course, a man wants a woman who is sexually desirable. But the sexual desirability originates primarily from physical appearance/visual cues, not whether other men find her sexually desirable. In practice, they will basically be the same because most men are going to find the same physical cues attractive (symmetrical face, waist to hip ratio, good skin, perky tits, etc). The fact that other men find her desirable doesn’t is not an input to other attraction.

    I don’t know about that, you seem to get plenty of guys that like having a girl on their arm that other men eye up.

    Right. But this has to do with “winning the competition”. If the girl is attractive, she will get attention from men without doing a single thing. If she seems to make a play for that attention for crave it, it puts into question whether we have won, and whether she is still considering other competitors.

  • Cooper

    “Perhaps trust works differently in men and women? Invoking jealousy deliberately as a game? that’s betrayal as far as I am concerned – you’re playing with me, bye bye.”

    Yup. That’s how ive always naturally viewed it.

  • unigirl

    Oh yeah that’s what I meant, like if you fancy her then other people will, whether she’s fishing for it or not, not pre-selection. Like a pride thing I thought like they won a prize, I’ve got what you want or something? Other than that yeah, why would anyone want winding up, plus if you need to make them jealous probably don’t give a shit about you anyway, bit of a waste of your life really.

  • Just1X

    @Unigirl

    Men finding a woman attractive is probably more a personal thing than it is for women. I know what I like, I don’t (much) care what any other tells me about her physically. Tales of her wigging out with other guys? I would take those very seriously, also any tales of her with other guys – I don’t want to date the town bike (N sensitivity).

    High N guys get selection validation for women (take it up with women, not my fault or issue). High N women do not gain selection validation for men:
    a) we don’t care about validation by 20 other guys
    b) we do care about high N; trust, bonding and STDs (these days, not as an evo-psych thing)

    So, not double standards, but different standards for different sexes.

  • Just1X

    MikeC seem to be saying similar things to me (but then he’s smart, so what do you expect?)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Uni,

    this has been gone into here many times before, but again, it’s a generally observable difference between the sexes: pre-selection in men (either sexually or through their status as perceived by other women) is seen as a plus (the inner voice says ‘you’ve got a good catch: look! everyone else agrees!’).

    Pre-selection in women most of the time has the opposite effect on men – whether sexually (inner voice says ‘this girl will put out for anyone, ugh!’) or regarding social status (inner voice says ‘God, this looks far too much like hard work, all these other guys want her too: am I going to have to fight them? Is she fucking some of them? Well, why wouldn’t she be, with all that attention? After all, that’s what MY body is telling ME to do, every waking second of my life.. If we have a child, how could I ever be sure it’s mine & that I’m not raising one of these other guys children….?’

    That sort of thing.

    Of course, all of this is a great oversimplification, & it’s largely subconscious, but those are the whispery drives in the reptilian hindbrain, still guiding our hearts & our loins even today, as we tap away on our keyboards & blackberries in the age of reason.

  • Sai

    I don’t get why anybody would make anybody they cared for jealous. It just seems like a douche-y way of trying to get attention. I’d probably feel disrespected and leave.

  • Just1X

    My bad, Cooper and Byron are too.

    If you want the opposing point of view from the opposing camp, Tom may be along soon to fail to convince (it’s traditional)

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    ” Of course, a man wants a woman who is sexually desirable. But the sexual desirability originates primarily from physical appearance/visual cues, not whether other men find her sexually desirable.”

    Absodiddlyutely. Can’t be stressed enough.

    “I know what I like, I don’t (much) care what any other [guy] tells me about her physically. “

    Again, this seems to be nigh on universally said & re-said over & over by pretty much all the guys here. Male choice of a partner has little to do with what other people think about that partner.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Just,

    If you want the opposing point of view from the opposing camp, Tom may be along soon to fail to convince (it’s traditional)

    You know, I actually typed “Well, except for Tom” just before the last sentence of my last comment but then deleted it because I thought it was too mean :)

  • Jackie

    @Zach (647)

    Zach, thanks for the Russian novel! ;) Seriously, even though we are probably the most opposite people on the board, I really appreciate your willingness to engage and be honest! :-)

    OK, here we go:

    Re: Drugs. Alcohol is classified as a drug (a depressant, I believe). So is caffeine, a stimulant. If I ruled the world, white sugar, porn and internet/tv would also be classified as drugs of some sort. 8-)

    6-Date hadn’t just been doing blow once or twice, it was A LOT, iirc. That is pretty telling about her character. Did she explain how she went from A LOT to where she is now? The same for porn addicts or people hepped up on white sugar– something is off when there is that much drug use. How they dealt with it is actually really important.

    It seems strange to me that you have no hangups about knowing someone’s body the most intimate way possible, but that you would be squeamish about knowing her mind and choices the same way. It almost seems … to permanently keep someone as a STR.

    Next: STR/LTR strategies.

    I actually am not going to tell you to stop looking in bars, as you seem to be quite committed to the strategy as bar life seems to be a big part of who you are, what is important to you.

    My issue is that of congruence. I truly believe that compartmentalization is not truly possible; our body’s systems are so interconnected that I don’t believe we can turn parts of our self on and off like a switch. They will bleed over into each other.

    So, here you are: Pursuing a STR on Wednesday and a LTR on Friday. To me, I see massive incongruence; like you are stepping on the gas and the brake at the same time. I believe that you are avoiding a LTR at some level, for whatever reason. Because if you were truly ready for a real relationship, you wouldn’t be satisfied by what you have now. And at some level you are, or you wouldn’t keep doing it.

    To me, what you are doing in analogous to trying to get a job. Instead of keenly refining your contacts, trying to get the highest quality intel ASAP, and practicing interview strategies; what I see is someone who is shotgunning his resume to 200 places.

    The quality control between the serious job-hunter and the casual seeker is like night and day. That is what I observe in your approach: You’re happy enough for now and betting on the odds, which as you note are in your favor.

    Two last things:
    1) It is sweet that you are trying not to be callous that time is on your side. Truly, my feelings are not hurt! :)
    2) With your family history, I think you should give yourself as much time as you need to make the right choice for marriage. You will still have time, 10 years from now, as you observed.

    What you are experiencing now, seems to be ennui more than anything. In that way, you are much more privileged that so many other people on this earth. I have more to say, but my cats are crying for supper! ;)

  • Cooper

    Everyone hit on spot re: preselection in women. (abbot, MikeC, Byron)

    Bottom-line, we don’t like it. And we will avoid women who will bring it out.

    If preselection worked on men, then a women flirting with other men would increase our interest in her. This is not the case.

  • Jackie

    @Byron, Obs
    “Again, this seems to be nigh on universally said & re-said over & over by pretty much all the guys here. Male choice of a partner has little to do with what other people think about that partner.”

    Hi Byron,

    Wait a minute– wasn’t there comments to the opposite on a thread where Obsidian was talking about weight/desirability?

    He posited that people like Roosh, etc, who are really offended by bigger chicks are attracted at some level, turned on and know that their “bros” would shame their choices. So they sleep with chicks on the DL, but don’t have the guts to be honest about it.

    Obsidian, if you’re there– do you remember this? Or am I imagining it?

    I think if a guy is insecure in himself, than if the girl is too [nerdy, chunky, weird, etc] than he will DEFINITELY be affected by what others (likely, his peers) think of her.

  • Jackie

    @Byron, Just
    “If you want the opposing point of view from the opposing camp, Tom may be along soon to fail to convince (it’s traditional)

    You know, I actually typed “Well, except for Tom” just before the last sentence of my last comment but then deleted it because I thought it was too mean”
    ====
    Hey again Byron,

    Truly, I’m not trying to stir up a fight! Just a clarification: Didn’t even Tom say he has his limits? I seem to recall that he is not a total ‘pozzie.

    I would be interested in his view to find out if this is something that exists across a spectrum, or is an automatic shut-down for all guys.

  • Just1X

    @Byron

    I wasn’t even aiming for mean (honest), it’s just that sometimes life is too short for his drivel about how only cavemen care about their prospective life partner having had a career as a porn star.

    It’s not like he learns from each beat down, he’s like a weeble. He may wobble but he comes back up with the same dopey argument…

    (I mustardmit that I might have approached mean this time)
    for he chronologically challenged; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeble
    “Weebles wobble, but they don’t fall down”
    And, “no”, you guys had them too

  • Just1X

    @Jackie – no it won’t (be interesting) :)

    BTW now that the heart palpitations have died down (shock from meeting the only religious, corset (etc) wearing, TLOG fan in the world). my thorassic surgeon says that I can converse with you again (starting with homeopathic doses should be therapeutic, I’m told).

    You have watched ‘Coupling’ from the UK, right?
    If not, drop everything and commence S1 right now. NOT the US version (that sucked), the UK one that preceded it. I cite Susan as a reference. It’s oomedy platinum with added ‘special stuff’ (i you got tht far in TLOG).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You have watched ‘Coupling’ from the UK, right?
      If not, drop everything and commence S1 right now.

      Yes, I am happy to recommend Coupling. We thoroughly enjoyed it!

      Hey, Just, do you remember the Norman Conquests? We saw that recently after many years and it looked quite dated but was still very funny. Whatever happened to Tom Conti?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Jackie,

    There’s a lot of factors come into play there, (not least present-day societies abhorrence of fat) & I wouldn’t want to act like I have all the answers here, but it seems to me the examples you’re thinking of are of negatives (obesity, or, as Just1x pointed out, being informed of a girlfriend’s ‘slutty’ past) not POSITIVES. So in other words, the woman’s place in society & the esteem with which she is held by others has less hold on men’s desires than women’s. Men don’t ask around their friends to see whether they all like a girl too before making their move. It would make me feel more at ease if my friends DIDN’T think she was attractive.

    Does that explain it? Men instinctively feel revulsion at a high number of partners of a woman because of their innate, hardwired fear of being cuckolded. Women feel if a man is desired by many other women then he must be a good catch for the long haul & worth letting him at her eggs.

    And therein lies the difference, and therein.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    OK, time to jump in here.

    As the Wise Man once said – you can learn a lot by observing, indeed! This has been one very interesting discussion.

    The premise that undergirds this post is the idea that “Girl Game” exists – a somewhat loose analog to Game itself, which is a constellation of attitudes, behaviors and actions desgined to win the sexual attraction, of the Human Female. The idea behind this post is that, if a Woman adopts any or all of the bulletted items that appear on the 25-point list above, they too will acquire and/or retain a boyfriend. Moreover, the author, Ms. Walsh, asserts that her “Girl Game” strategem is one that is antithetical to Feminist orthodoxy. Not surprisingly, I find both premises tenuous, at best.

    I should like to explore these assertions and more – like the notion that Porn is the blame for rough sexual play and the like (and, failing that, that domineering parents are to blame) – for I find them again, tenuous at best and outright fallacious at worst.

    More soon – got a meeting to attend…

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Moreover, the author, Ms. Walsh, asserts that her “Girl Game” strategem is one that is antithetical to Feminist orthodoxy.

      I did not call it Girl Game.

      I did not say it is antithetical to Feminist orthodoxy, I said it is politically incorrect.

  • Jackie

    @Just1X,
    Well, sit down and grab an aspirin tablet to ward off the palpitations, because it’s been in my Netflix queue for months! Will move to the front. ;) My other British shows are:

    Blackadder (my sister says the meaner, the better)
    The IT Crowd
    Pulling
    Skins (updated US version was crap, “do not want”)
    Vicar of Dibley

    Remember when I got really sick with pneumonia earlier this year? I watched a LOT of Netflix! ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      We loved the UK Skins, seasons 1 and 2. Several of those young actors are now very prominent.

  • Jackie

    @Byron
    Hey Byron!
    Thank you for the explanation; I appreciate it. :-)

    Maybe this is splitting hairs, but, as a chick, I am *very* grossed out by guys with high N. I think Sassy might have mentioned on another thread, we would like a guy who is low-N through a position of choice.

    Maybe we are outliers?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    I rushed that last post a little (it’s 1am here) – I should have clarified the positive /negative thing more: men (in my observation) can too be swayed by NEGATIVE points against a woman (that may directly affect them, such as a worrisome sexual history or being a knife-wielding psycho – the way a woman would be directly affected by learning a man had a wife & kids elsewhere he’s not told her about) but less so by the POSITIVE word of mouth of those around them. A man will dig a woman just because he digs that woman, & doesn’t give a shit what anyone, not even his best friend, has to say about her, unless it is, as I said before, something which sparks off the warning signs of the hindbrain.

  • INTJ

    @ Jackie

    Maybe this is splitting hairs, but, as a chick, I am *very* grossed out by guys with high N. I think Sassy might have mentioned on another thread, we would like a guy who is low-N through a position of choice.

    And how do you determine if it was through a position of choice?

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Maybe this is splitting hairs, but, as a chick, I am *very* grossed out by guys with high N. I think Sassy might have mentioned on another thread, we would like a guy who is low-N through a position of choice.”

    Well, Sassy has an unusually high revulsion over that area, almost to the point of ranting – she’s a lot like the female version of Abbot in that.

    But really, there is very little difference in wanting a man who CAN have any woman he wants (but hasn’t) & a man who HAS had any woman he wanted (because he can): they both gain higher status in your eyes because of preselection by other women.

    The only real difference is that one is – for biological reasons – far, far less likely to exist than the other. In Nature’s eyes, the first is a terrible waste of good genes. And Nature is a mother, after all.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Jackie,
    Just a quick note re: drugs, I don’t think you can always tell someone’s character based on drug use. I don’t really care whether my BF smokes marijuana, and he does so from time to time (not just once or twice but probably at least monthly). I don’t feel pressured to do it myself and never have, but I don’t think it’s up to me to control him and it doesn’t change my opinion of or feelings about him.

    To each his own, but as long as the occasional use of such a substance isn’t interfering with a relationship, I don’t see how it points to some sort of character flaw. My BF has a really nasty work schedule and sometimes uses pot as a way to fall asleep. Doesn’t make him less of a person.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For the record, the kids I know who smoke pot are fine – sane and productive. On the other hand, the kids I know who have done a lot of coke are a hot mess – every single one, both sexes.

      Yes, both are drugs, but let’s not kid ourselves. They’re not equally potent or risky. I learned on Breaking Bad that coke is often a gateway drug to meth addiction as well. :)

  • INTJ

    @ Byron

    The only real difference is that one is – for biological reasons – far, far less likely to exist than the other. In Nature’s eyes, the first is a terrible waste of good genes. And Nature is a mother, after all.

    There’s the other point that without preselection (which usually requires a high-N), you don’t have the opportunity for having a high-N.

    Thus, by choosing to keep a low-N, I ensure that I, paradoxically, don’t have a choice.

  • Just1X

    I guess that I see real marriage as a contract that, if it came to it, I’d die to protect my wife and kids (not needlessly, but if I thought I might save them, I’d do whatever was necessary). I guess that her side of it would be to bear MY children and die after me to protect them (if required etc).

    So, to me, marriage is an IMMENSE thing of trust. Any sign of game playing, lack of morality, drama queen, likelihood of shacking up with someone else, affairs?- no, absolutely no.

    To a woman (NAWALT) what are consequences of breaking the deal? Divorce can even be a shrewd move (if amoral) financially. Cuckolding the guy? not a biggy, he may well still have to pay, feminists say he shouldn’t care anyway (but if the woman gets the wrong baby from the hospital? different story – OT)

    Marriage is a different deal for men than it is for women. When men see marriage as a crap deal, they go their own way. Modern marriage requires immense trust by the man* of the woman and of the state, it requires nothing of a woman.

    So, don’t play games with men, it causes a loss of trust. Want an ONS? Fine! Marriage? nope. Be nice to your man (if he’s worth it, if not why are you with him?) which takes us back to Susan’s marvellous list.

    *part of the red-pill is realising this. making his decision to trust one that is reality based and concious. Men 30+ y.o. have a better clue than when they was young ‘n’ sappy. The web means even betas have a chance to wise up and avoid those hopping of the carousel, especially with a indelible trail of her past on FB etc with tagged photos.

  • Jackie

    Hey Olive,

    I think we are in agreement. If you read my post to Zach about drugs it was the “A LOT” that I was concerned about.

    I was just trying to give up white sugar and flour the other week– OMG, hard as heck. Am I an “addict”? No, I don’t think so.

    Not sure how it follows that I am saying he would be “less of a person”? Maybe tone is lost in online discussions?

    I *can* say that I have known guys who were really, really into pot. Like, it was one of the lynchpins of their social lives. With these guys, I observe that they are really friendly and mellow, but *nothing* ever got done. To me, that was concerning.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “Thus, by choosing to keep a low-N, I ensure that I, paradoxically, don’t have a choice.”

    That’s right, a man who won’t get laid, can’t get laid. Again, the polar opposite of a woman in any society’s dilemma.

    Perhaps I should have said Nature is a mutha.

  • Jackie

    @INTJ
    “And how do you determine if it was through a position of choice?”
    ======
    Hi INTJ,

    Well, if a guy is low-N because he has high standards, to me that is awesome. That is the kind of guy we (Sassy and me, at least) want.

    If he is low-N, but would trade for high-N in a heartbeat if it would be possible, then he is not low-N by choice but by circumstance

    That is the way it looks to me, but it’s possible I may be missing something. :)

  • Just1X

    @Jackie – you lucky lucky, you get to pop your Coupling cherry. OH! I envy you. Jeff is my favourite, Susan may have other views (but I doubt it).

    goodnight, it’s 2:45

  • Just1X

    @Jackie

    And Blackadder II is by far the best, sa soeur a raison; darker is better, much better.

    But Coupling first (are you still here?)

  • Jackie

    @Byron, INTJ

    Well, maybe these are more outliers… But I have known guys who are either extremely moral or religious, who have had super-low Ns and have ended up with awesome marriages to women who adore them.

    Again, only anecdotal but saying “ALL MEN” or “ALL WOMEN” for some reason makes me want to give anecdotes to the contrary! ;_

  • Jackie

    @Just1

    Haha, this forum is so addictive! Yep, I’m still here! My sister told me to start BlackAdder season 2– said the soppier seasons, the lamer the humor. (‘Scuse me, “humour”.)

    Let me see if Coupling is on INstant– it was a while back….

  • Just1X

    oops clock on euro time, only 1am

  • Jackie

    @Just1X

    Hey Just1, did you know there are “sources” *cough, cough* for TLOG online?

    You can download the episodes in HQ on veehd.com. Or, um, so I’ve heard… Supposedly…

  • Just1X

    should have said “why are you still here?” @2:00am (FML and my clocks.)

    have fun

  • Just1X

    it’s vanilla netflix here, but *cough* thanks *cough*.
    ttfn

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “I have known guys who are either extremely moral or religious, who have had super-low Ns and have ended up with awesome marriages to women who adore them.”

    True, but in societies where sex is demonized, those men will be demonstrating higher status/value in other areas too. Sex is just one.

    You’re right, though, to look for the exceptions & outliers.

    By the way, Blackadder II & III were always the best, the first season’s too slapsticky & dumb, mainly just a lot of gurning faces, the fourth (forth) too sad because of its (brave) realism, & the jokes had mostly been done before by then.

    My personal favourite the past 5 or 10 years comedy-wise has been ‘Garth Marenghi’s Darkplace’.

    And, of course, The Mighty Boosh.

  • Just1X

    @Byron, thanks for the Garth recommendation, I haven’t heard of it before. Never seriously tried Boosh because my (superficial) take on it is that it’s weird without bite. TLOG doesn’t always hit the spot, but when it does…
    Boosh might be a great one for Jackie to try after Coupling :)

    g’night, really this time

  • Jackie

    @Just1X (683)
    ” Modern marriage requires immense trust by the man* of the woman and of the state, it requires nothing of a woman.”
    ====
    Just when we had been getting along! :( Just1X, I have to take issue with your statement. Do you really think this is true, or are you extrapolating your (admittedly incredibly unjust) experience onto all of us?

    J1, I do not know what it is like to be married, but I did love my XF with all the devotion I had. And he didn’t just break my heart, he broke my LIFE.

    Scholarship: Gone. Living Situation: Gone. Job: Gone. I trusted him when he told me to go ahead and resign. Do you think he would have been better somehow if we had been married? No! It likely would have been even worse!

    Only it would have been even more heart-wrenching and humiliating. And trust me, if we had been married, he would have done anything to keep me as dependent on him as possible.

    Do I get to sit here and become the biggest feminist in the world, in response?

    NO.

    There are too many awesome men– just look at the ones here on HUS– to paint with that broad a brush. I am choosing to focus on the good, because the thought of becoming a slut or completely giving up in response, means that the bastard REALLY succeeded in hurting me.

    Just1X, please know that everything thinks you are incredibly awesome– with an unparalleled sense of humour and the quickest wit.

    Please reconsider that there is probably some equally cool woman out there who would want to dedicate her life to making you happy. She will probably want to live for you and be willing to die for you. Really.

  • Thrasymachus

    @ Jackie:

    Well, if a guy is low-N because he has high standards, to me that is awesome. That is the kind of guy we (Sassy and me, at least) want.

    If he is low-N, but would trade for high-N in a heartbeat if it would be possible, then he is not low-N by choice but by circumstance

    That is the way it looks to me, but it’s possible I may be missing something. :)

    There are very, very few men like this. Some low-N men CLAIM that they disapprove of casual sex, but most of them are, to put it politely, making a virtue out of necessity. Almost all the exceptions are some deeply religious men – but they usually expect virgin or very low-N brides. In other circumstances the search for a low-N man with options is like a search for fried ice cream.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    J1,

    Well, The League Of Gentlemen certainly has bite, I’ll give you that. My predominant memory of it is that there was always at least one point in every episode which made me feel like I was going to be sick.

    Most folks cant say that about Seinfeld.

    Liked the movie though.

  • Jackie

    @Byron (699)

    ” My predominant memory of it is that there was always at least one point in every episode which made me feel like I was going to be sick.”

    Hahaha! Usually they revolve around the veterinarian Angel of Death! That poor, poor tortoise…

  • Jackie

    @Thrasymachus

    “Almost all the exceptions are some deeply religious men – but they usually expect virgin or very low-N brides.”
    ====
    I can’t speak for Sassy, but those are the kind of guys that Bellita and I have been looking for! ;)

    Seriously, I know that we are outliers looking for other outliers. It may be difficult, but it’s not impossible. :)

  • Abbot

    “N sensitivity”

    Term of the month! Women of certain backgrounds who are now seeking life mates need to be concerned and deal with the dreaded N-sen

  • Just1X

    @Jackie

    oops, I really was going to sleep, then I caught this last comment of yours. Don’t want to go to bed on a disagreement, but am tired (hope I don’t fuck this up).

    I was talking about legal and financial ramifications of divorce (esp. with kids).

    And I believe that I said NAWALT.

    Emotionally? Good Guys and Good Girls get the kicking. And I have no doubt where you fall in the spectrum, no doubt at all. Sometimes I can see the comfort of religion, but it just isn’t in me. I hope that it helps you and that you find what you deserve.

    If I thought AWALT, I wouldn’t be here. There would be no point in understanding da eviiiilz wimminz, I’d have done the big-time MGTOW. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the discussions for their own sake, but I try and share a little man p.o.v. to help everybody that can get along, get along. Mutual understanding is good.

    I’ll try to be less clumsy next time

  • Jackie

    @JustPlainAwesome

    Thanks for explaining and clarifying– not clumsy at all. :) I think I am perhaps overly sensitive on the subject. Very strong emotions around it, for sure. Thanks again :)

  • Courtley

    I have to say, as someone from the Pacific Northwest, that I’m kind of fascinated by Zach’s description of dating young women with high-paying careers (!!) in the Big Apple. Most of my friends are still like, baristas and receptionists or work for nonprofits, the only well-paid friends I have are nurses. And I guess some of the graphic designers are doing okay too. :D But the concept of having a high-rolling life in finance or with a big corporation and being able to pay to go to swanky charity events at 27 years old sounds like a totally different world from the one I inhabit and it’s really interesting to read how dating works in that environment.

  • Courtley

    Also, regarding the idea that Zach/men in general can easily wait til they’re 35 to get married with no SMP penalties–I wonder if there’s any data out there on the average age of the marriage partners of men who marry at 25 vs men who marry at 35? Are women in their 20s really marrying men a decade older than them at high rates?

    I know very wealthy older men get hot young babes, but that’s a pretty small and select pool of individuals. What about an average-successful guy in his mid to late 30s, surrounded by young women with decent salaries of their own? I’m sure he has more options at 35 than a woman does, but it’d be interesting to see more of a breakdown on exactly what those options look like.

  • Courtley

    @Jackie

    “Seriously, I know that we are outliers looking for other outliers. It may be difficult, but it’s not impossible. ”

    Trust me, Jackie, in the evangelical social circle I grew up in you’d just be normal looking for normal. I know lots of guys who are still virgins at 25 because they’re not married yet, simple as that. I wouldn’t call you guys ‘outliers’ but more of a significant subculture in American society with its own set of dating practices and sexual mores.

  • Mike C

    Also, regarding the idea that Zach/men in general can easily wait til they’re 35 to get married with no SMP penalties–I wonder if there’s any data out there on the average age of the marriage partners of men who marry at 25 vs men who marry at 35? Are women in their 20s really marrying men a decade older than them at high rates?

    I know very wealthy older men get hot young babes, but that’s a pretty small and select pool of individuals. What about an average-successful guy in his mid to late 30s, surrounded by young women with decent salaries of their own? I’m sure he has more options at 35 than a woman does, but it’d be interesting to see more of a breakdown on exactly what those options look like.

    Keep in mind that by its nature any data will be backwards looking and miss any changes in trends. With investing, there is the famous expression PAST PERFORMANCE doesn’t indicate future performance. In 2007/2008 Research in Motion dominated the corporate smartphone market and traded for $150 a share. Today, they are a complete loser trading for $8 a share. You couldn’t tell where their 2012 market share was going to be by looking at their 2007 market share. You’ll miss inflection points.

    So. There are two factors that I think could drive age differentials going forward that wouldn’t be reflected in past data.

    1. Men recognizing their mating value. More and more guys in that 30+ age range realize if they are established, have successful careers, and haven’t aged terribly they have serious value on the market.

    2. Social shaming of age differentials – I think for quite awhile men were quite effectively shamed that going too far down in age was “wrong”. I think this shaming is becoming less effective. With the spread of information on the Internet, I think more and more men become less prone to being effectively shamed by femcentric shaming such as “what’s wrong with you, that girl is too young for you”.

    Granted, I think these two items are marginal, maybe a few percent of men but enough to shift the market somewhat. A guy like Zach who gets a MBA and has a successful career, and sounds like good looking is going to have ZERO problems attracting a 25-year old at 35

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    “Granted, I think these two items are marginal, maybe a few percent of men but enough to shift the market somewhat. A guy like Zach who gets a MBA and has a successful career, and sounds like good looking is going to have ZERO problems attracting a 25-year old at 35″

    Based on what actual data, please? I see you tried to discredit any potential links that might shed light on my question, interestingly enough. I’m not as curious about the men’s attitudes as I am about the women’s in this case. Specifically, the number of 25-year-old women out there who want to marry 35-year-old men, and what percentage of them actually do so. And what percentage of 35-year-old men marry 25-year-old women vs 30-year-old women and so on.

    I at least am totally skeeved out by the idea of dating a man ten years older than me (I’m 26) and most of my married/LTR friends are very close in age. Like I said in my post before the one you quoted I’m in a bit of a specific demographic, though, it may be different in the kind of circles you’re thinking about, or Zach is talking about.

  • Mike C

    Based on what actual data, please?

    Well…Courtley…as I said any data is backward looking. I obviously cannot give you data for a future trend that may take place.

    Specifically, the number of 25-year-old women out there who want to marry 35-year-old men, and what percentage of them actually do so.

    25-year old women don’t marry a “25-year old man” or a “35-year old man”. They marry a man they find attractive and decide to marry.

    I at least am totally skeeved out by the idea of dating a man ten years older than me (I’m 26) and most of my married/LTR friends are very close in age.

    Well…that’s you. FWIW, my fiancee’s sister was dating a 50-year old when she was 33. This is going to sound like bragging but it is germane to the point. When I am the gym working out, I routinely catch interest and looks from women significantly below my age. There is girl who works the desk who is probably 22-24 who has been aggressive in her flirting. I really have no idea what the exact breakdown is between 20-something women who are skeeved by 30+ guys versus those who don’t really care if the guy is otherwise attractive. I’ll admit I am speculating, but my sense is the skeeve factor is lower than you think. I have a co-worker who is 29 who regularly pulls 18-19 year olds. One 17-year old sent him a text when she was “legal”.

    In any case, I’m sure the data is out there for you to find. I was simply trying to point out that backward looking data sometimes doesn’t inform you what the next 5-10 years might look like. As Ana would say YMMV

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Susan

    +1, re: coke. After all, coke = refined crack. I rank weed with alcohol, although I do not smoke, and I prefer to date/ live with non-smokers.

  • Mike C

    And Courtley,

    I think it is Susan herself who has talked about or commented about the shortage of “marriageable” men due to the recent years of 60/40 college ratios, and that there will be more women with degrees than men. I guess we will see how the market shakes out but I think if the choice is between a 35-year old with a MBA versus a same age 25-year old without a degree the former has a leg up but it will definitely be interesting to see what choices women. I think more women will actually go the Kate Bolick route and make the best of it.

  • OffTheCuff

    Court: “I at least am totally skeeved out by the idea of dating a man ten years older than me (I’m 26) and most of my married/LTR friends are very close in age.”

    I personally know at least four women who have married/engaged 10-20 years older, and one is my cousin who could be a bikini model. If it was so rare, why do I know all these people then? That, if I wanted to date 10 years younger, I’d have no problem myself. If its possible for me, it would be trivial for Zach.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know women who don’t mind the idea of a man 5-10 years older, in part because they’re so sick of college aged knuckleheads. But I thought I’d do some digging around on this question.

      om

      From another source:

      Husband 20 or more years older than wife 0.8%
      Husband 15 to 19 years older than wife 1.5%
      Husband 10 to 14 years older than wife 4.9%
      Husband 6 to 9 years older than wife 12.3%
      Husband 4 to 5 years older than wife 13.8%
      Husband 2 to 3 years older than wife 22.1%
      Husband and wife within one year 32.4%

      http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/56_married_couples_by_differences_in_ages.html

      As Mike C points out, however, major changes are underway, and a third of female college graduates will not have the opportunity to marry a man of similar age and education. Some will undoubtedly address the shortage by considering older men, who will find they have more choice of young women, which has happened in the past following wars.

  • Richard Aubrey

    WRT college:
    Read a couple of financial articles on the current and coming energy boom in the US.
    Lots of guys without college but with good certifications–company or industry association training, or comm coll, etc.–are pulling down $55k to start, usually in low-cost of living areas, with good futures based on performance and ambition.
    Would you need, say, $100k in NYC or LA or SF to match that standard of living? Yeah, I hear you say, West Bumfuck, ID has no museums. And you’ve been in NYC museums just how many hours this year?
    Sort of like soldiers or vets. Serious, productive, together guys without four years of partying. Who’dathunk?
    North Dakota has 3% unemployment and if the unemployed could/would get trained for the energy industry, there’d be zero unemployment.

  • Zach

    @Jackie

    Funny you used “russian novel”. I use that expression in the same way haha.

    I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are failing to grasp that sex in and of itself means little to me emotionally. So having sex with one girl on Wednesday does not make me emotionally unavailable for another girl on Sunday. The only thing depriving myself of sex would accomplish would be to make me jerk off more and probably jump too fast into an LTR because I was too horny. My dad has told me many, many stories of relationships back in the 50s and early 60s (when he was growing up) where the guys agreed to the relationship just to get laid. To me, casual sex and dating are as conflictive as hang gliding and basketball. Case in point, I was hooking up with another girl (casually) for the first 3 weeks I was dating my ex. When I realized there was long-term potential with my ex, I ditched the other girl. Case closed.

    Also, not sure what you mean re: my family situation. My dad is 11 years older than my Mom, they were married when she was 33 and he 44. They have now been married for 28 years and going strong. Besides the older/younger aspect, not sure what else is there.

    @Courtley

    I don’t have any data on it, but I was not implying at age 35 I’d be dating 25 year olds. 28, 29, 30 year olds? Absolutely. I can name examples from my personal life of many couples I know who are 5-6 or more years apart (including a 24 with 38 year-old), and it’s not just rich older guys. Also, most of the young girls I know in those relationships are quite attractive. Most of the attractive girls I know regularly date men 4-5-6 years older than they are without blinking. As far as outside my personal experience, go to any nice restaurant in NYC on a Thurs/Fri/Sat, look around at the tables for 2, and 5 years will seem like a small age gap.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    “I’ll admit I am speculating, but my sense is the skeeve factor is lower than you think. I have a co-worker who is 29 who regularly pulls 18-19 year olds. One 17-year old sent him a text when she was “legal”.”

    I think hooking-up is a different ballgame than marriage, though. I’m sure 19-year-olds who are into hooking up will do so with anyone who looks good. Marriage is a different ballgame.

    I suppose it’s just possible we all hang out with very different people. But in my little corner of the world it seems like:

    Women who want to settle down young (early 20s) find a beta guy in high school or college close to them in age and marry them. This is roughly a little over half of my female friends.

    Women who want to “play the field” and hook-up do so until later 20s or early 30s then look for a man (much to the chagrin of the Manosphere as we all know). Obviously there’s some younger women marrying older men, as your anecdotes illustrate, but I have a hard time believing it’s a high number based on the split I’m talking about between more LTR-oriented women and STR-oriented-while-in-their-20s ones. I agree that how the economy goes will doubtless effect the SMP in the coming 5-10 years. I at least know plenty of women with degrees in LTRs with guys who don’t have them. Not every woman with a B.A. is like a high-flying ‘Sex and the City’ type you know. :) LOTS of liberal arts grads with the same basic hiring potential as guys who didn’t go the full four years–in fact, sometimes less potential and at least these guys have far less debt!

  • Courtley

    @Richard Aubrey

    “Lots of guys without college but with good certifications–company or industry association training, or comm coll, etc.–are pulling down $55k to start, usually in low-cost of living areas, with good futures based on performance and ambition.”

    Absolutely. Guys in trades are making hella more now than guys working at Starbucks to pay off their sociology degrees. I actually do want someone who’s as educated as me or at least has a lot of intellectual interests but I’m a minority among my female friends. They want someone with some get-up-and-go and life goals. The degree is much less relevant.

  • Courtley

    @Zach

    “I don’t have any data on it, but I was not implying at age 35 I’d be dating 25 year olds. 28, 29, 30 year olds? Absolutely. I can name examples from my personal life of many couples I know who are 5-6 or more years apart (including a 24 with 38 year-old), and it’s not just rich older guys. Also, most of the young girls I know in those relationships are quite attractive. Most of the attractive girls I know regularly date men 4-5-6 years older than they are without blinking. As far as outside my personal experience, go to any nice restaurant in NYC on a Thurs/Fri/Sat, look around at the tables for 2, and 5 years will seem like a small age gap.”

    Yeah, I’m sure 35-year-old well-off guys in places like NYC can easily pull women in the 28-32ish age range and probably marry within that range more so than with women their own age. What I question is the idea that a 35-year-old guy’s value is so increased that he can pluck some young hot thing who’s fresh out of college and get her to marry him and start having his babies at 25 or younger. I just think, for reasons stated above, that that’s unrealistic.

  • Courtley

    @OfftheCuff

    “I personally know at least four women who have married/engaged 10-20 years older, and one is my cousin who could be a bikini model. If it was so rare, why do I know all these people then? That, if I wanted to date 10 years younger, I’d have no problem myself. If its possible for me, it would be trivial for Zach.”

    Haha what? What kind of guys did these young bikini models marry and what’s their lifestyle like?

    Again I’m not disputing that the very successful men can pull this off, but just having an MBA and an office job doesn’t equate to pulling in the cash and social prestige these women probably want anymore. Tons of people have Masters degrees.

    And I’d also wager that a 25-year-old dude working at Starbucks is looked up on more favorably by 25-year-old women than a 35-year-old man working there. :D Of course there’s LESS 35-year-olds working at Starbucks, and 35-year-old men on average earn more than 25-year-olds but we need to understand that it’s not the age itself that like, works its magic on certain women but the status and success and stability that more men have achieved by 35 than at 25. With an uncertain future economy telling guys to all hold off til they’re 35 to get married is sort of risky, IMO, since their future success can’t be predicted.

  • Mike C

    What I question is the idea that a 35-year-old guy’s value is so increased that he can pluck some young hot thing who’s fresh out of college and get her to marry him and start having his babies at 25 or younger. I just think, for reasons stated above, that that’s unrealistic.

    I actually agree with that because I think there is a world of difference between a 22-year old fresh out of college and a 25-year old who has been living in the “real world” of a job and paying bills for 3 years. In many ways, I think a 25 and 30-35 year old may have more common perspectives than a 22-year old fresh out of college. I”m speculating, but I think many 22-year olds especially moving to an urban setting with their first post-college job are chomping at the bit “to begin the adventure of their life” in the new work world and socializing in the scene. They may not be so eager to lock it down with an older guy even if he is otherwise attractive. After 3 years of that, they may have a changed perspective and ready to move on to a different phase of life.

    IMO, that sort of 30-40 age range is one for guys that just has tremendous variation across many metrics. You have some guys who may have accomplished alot by that age, and some who haven’t accomplished diddly squat. IIRC, Obama got elected in his early 40s and Ryan just got nominated for VP at 42-43. On the flipside, you could have a 40-year old guy still doing some entry level crud. Physicality varies tremendously as well with two guys both at age 35-40 looking like they are 15 years difference in age.

  • Courtley

    @Susan

    Thanks for pulling that up! Interesting how the biggest percentage is couples within one year of each other–that seems to go with my theory of beta couples getting together in their early 20s and staying that way.

    “As Mike C points out, however, major changes are underway, and a third of female college graduates will not have the opportunity to marry a man of similar age and education. Some will undoubtedly address the shortage by considering older men, who will find they have more choice of young women, which has happened in the past following wars.”

    Well, my comment on this would be that less men going to college does not quite equate to the end of a war! :D The men aren’t dead, you know, just a bit less credentialed. I think that outside of very successful, status-oriented women with powerful careers in big cities, most women with undergraduate bachelor degrees are not going to care one whit whether or not their man got an undergrad or not. This is true in my experience and in my neck of the woods at least. I’ve had female friends with graduate degrees express preferences for guys who went into trade because they like the demonstrated work ethic, lack of school debt and the fact that these guys are often somewhat more established by their mid-20s than their college-attending counterparts because they got into the ‘real world’ earlier.

    I know that’s all anecdotal but this idea that less men getting bachelor degrees is going to terribly skew the SMP doesn’t seem born out in my reality, but as you all say we shall see.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    I think Zach’s assessment is just more realistic. And I think that for the kind of woman you describe it takes a bit longer than 3 years, frankly, based on my own experience as a woman in her 20s living the post-collegiate life (not that I was out hooking up, but thinking of women I know who avoided locking it down with an LTR in college so they could move somewhere cool and life this kind of lifestyle).

    Again though, the more successful the man is probably determines a lot but I think guys with mid-management type jobs and a dime-a-dozen MBAs in NYC with women who earn lots of money too should not count on being able to pull a WIFE 10 years younger than them when they hit their mid-30s.

  • Mike C

    And I’d also wager that a 25-year-old dude working at Starbucks is looked up on more favorably by 25-year-old women than a 35-year-old man working there.

    Of course. No doubt. The presumption is that a guy in those 10 years should have made some progress. The 35-year old should be a district manager responsible for managing 10-20 stores, not working the register at one.

    age itself that like, works its magic on certain women but the status and success and stability that more men have achieved by 35 than at 25.

    Of course. I’m not making the case that a 35-year old is inherently more attractive than a 25-year old to a 25-year old, but the assumption is the additional status makes up for any age differential. If the 35-year old doesn’t have any additional status then it is a moot point.

  • Jackie

    @Zach (720)

    Ha! Great minds think alike! Well, in this instance at least. ;)

    I am under no delusion that I will change your mind, much less your actions. Perhaps we are SO far apart– practically polar opposites– that it forces me to understand and articulate my beliefs and the reasons for them.
    ====
    ” However, I rate the expression “finding yourself” up there with “achieving your bliss” (the 7th google result for it is a Deepak Chopra article). To me, it is a wishy-washy, vague expression that means absolutely nothing. I “find myself” every day, by living my life”
    ———-
    Interestingly enough, “know thyself” is employed by Socrates, Plato, Pythagoras and supposedly attributed to at least 10 other Greek philosophers, as one of the greatest and most concise aphorisms ever.

    That is what I (inexpertly) meant to convey. I wonder, are you able to articulate the framework by which you make decisions? Are you aware of your cognitive biases, and, if so, how do you justify them?

    You said you find yourself every day. OK, in regards to the questions above, what have you found?

    That is what I mean. Not some half-butt Oprahfied slogan. But to truly ask, Why do I believe what I believe? Have I examined the framework through which I view the world? If so, what have I found?

    In my experience, these questions only come up when you are facing questions that have no “right” answer– Why do we suffer? Why are we here? What is imperative to accomplish in this lifetime and why?

    Obviously, these are huge and philosophers have debated them for centuries. This is not cheap emotionalism or magical thinking, in my opinion.

    No need to reply to any of these, as the questions are highly personal. I just wonder to what extent you have lived the examined life? You have had every reason in the world NOT to and this kind of reflection is usually preceded by a great deal of unrest or suffering.

    But I think that, ultimately, to be at peace with yourself– relationship or not– you will need to go on this introspective journey. My 0.02. :)

    PS: You talked about meditation and contemplation about being “lazy” and lying around in the sun, I think. This is NOT contemplation or meditation!! Quite the opposite– do you know any Buddhists (yes, some are atheists!)?

    Try sitting without having a thought in your head, keeping your mind clear and aware, for more than 10 seconds. Not easy! ;)

  • Gorb

    The trend of slightly older men with younger women is picking up even now. I’ve noticed it in Boston more recently. A lot of women are also rejecting the more feminized, liberal younger men in larger numbers. I’ve heard comments from 25-30 year-old women to the effect that a lot of men are genteel and indecisive, and that they prefer older men (more manly; likely the same as the younger ones but with more years to grow confidence), men from Europe (I hear this a lot), especially the mediteranean countries, and a large amount of talk about how their superiors (male) fascinate them. For example, i was privy to a conversation among my SO’s friends: they were debating which guy was hotter or more interesting. What stunned me was that all of the men they were debating were older, by at least 7 years, and most 10. All of them were in positions of superiority.

    I’m guessing that as more and more of the younger men are dropping out of life’s economic race, are feminized (and hence lose female interest) and cease to be able to adapt to this SMP, you’ll see more and more women hooking up with older men.

    My SO is ten years younger than me. Actually ,closer to 11. She finds nothing wrong with this. In her mind, it’s natural.

  • Jackie

    @Courtley, Mike C, Susan

    Susan, thanks for the chart! There seems to be this mythos that once men learn Game, they are going to be picking up 22 y.o.’s well into their 40s. Nice to see that reality puts most people marrying someone close in age. ;)

    I think it’s important to keep an eye on the quality of the relationship. I’ve dated guys 10 yrs older, NBD. But… a pretty big percentage of them specifically wanted to skew young because they were immature and not ready to be with women their own age.

    I see this a LOT on the “teen mom” shows that I recommend to girls as inspiration to NOT get pregnant! ;) The dynamic is the older guy looking for a more vulnerable girl, and it’s unhealthy and not balanced.

    The weird thing is, I was talking about this with my dad, and neither of us have a problem with big gaps *either* way. As my dad put it, If someone has found true love, who are we to stand in the way? And I said, Well said, Dad. :)

  • Jackie

    Oops, I should have said, my dad and I were talking about sane, healthy adults. Younger man-older woman, older man-younger woman; who are we to stomp on love in bloom? :)

  • Mike C

    Again though, the more successful the man is probably determines a lot but I think guys with mid-management type jobs and a dime-a-dozen MBAs in NYC with women who earn lots of money too should not count on being able to pull a WIFE 10 years younger than them when they hit their mid-30s.

    Perhaps. Its hard to determine the exact shape of those curves of status, success and age difference. To use an extreme example, look at Donald Trump, and the women he has married. I think the latest one Melania was 35 when she married Trump and I think he was like 60. Now to me he is a hideous looking man, but obviously has huge status and presents a strong alpha frame. I realize that is an extreme example. If you told me that your position was 45-year olds couldn’t attract 25-years for marriage, I’d be in 99% agreement because it really would take an exceptional 45-year old in terms of youthful appearance and achievement. Really, we are debating at what age for a man does the age really become a major detriment. In terms of a 25-year old female I just don’t think 35 is that huge a handicap relative to say 30. Its all academic though. I’m a 38-year old engaged to a 38-year old, and if you don’t want to date or marry a 35 year old I’m not trying to persuade you to do so, but I stand by the idea my macro analysis is probably closer to reality than yours.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    OK . . . but Donald Trump is exactly the kind of outlier we should avoid here. He’s super-rich. Of course finding an Eastern European 25-year-old supermodel would be easy for him! I totally acknowledge that.

    Again, I think your average 25-year-old women may be attracted to 35-year-old men for sex, but I think the kind of women who want LTRs in their early 20s are a bit more like me, more likely to stick with guys their own age and be weirded out by ones that much older. Women who want to play the field tend to not be finished with it at 25, broadly speaking. I think what you DO probably see a huge number of is women in their early 30s marrying men in their early 40s. Totally. I just find it hard to believe that there’s a big number of early-to-mid-20s women marrying mid-30s men, but I’ll hold off further opinions unless I can find more data on it.

  • Jackie

    @Mike C
    “look at Donald Trump, and the women he has married. I think the latest one Melania was 35 when she married Trump and I think he was like 60.”
    =====
    I think this one ranks as an “extreme outlier.” I remember seeing somewhere that she was asked about being with him for his money (hasn’t that guy filed for bankruptcy about a million times?). She replied, Would he be with me without my looks?

    In other words, these trophy wife situations are like a swap meet. Plus, isn’t she from some Romanian or Eastern bloc country? The girls I have known from that area are either very very religious or are willing to do ANYTHING to succeed. This is not a marriage based on love, that’s for sure.

    I also read back issues of Spy magazine on google.books and, wow, was that guy tacky and gross, even back then! They called him a “short fingered vulgarian.”

    There was an updated one, with Melania, and she had just had his baby. The reporter was saying how beautiful she looked, to recover so quickly after such a big pregnancy. Trump said, Almost. She still has 5 lbs to go before she is at a good weight. :(

    Anyway, to me, the trophy wives are just legalized swaps of money for youth and looks; outliers.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I also read back issues of Spy magazine on google.books and, wow, was that guy tacky and gross, even back then! They called him a “short fingered vulgarian.”

      I remember cracking up at that. Spy was a great magazine.

  • Mike C

    There seems to be this mythos that once men learn Game, they are going to be picking up 22 y.o.’s well into their 40s. Nice to see that reality puts most people marrying someone close in age. ;)

    Jackie, those tend to be the most hyperbolic claims. There is a segment of people who believe if your “Game” is just tight enough than both age and looks are completely irrelevant. I’m in the camp that believes that proposition is ludicrous, but at the same time I have zero doubt there are 40+ something guys who can at least pull 20-somethings for STRs but those are the top .1% of 40 year olds across the spectrum of attractiveness.

    According to my math, the stats Susan posted shoe 53% of men being 2 to 14 years older while 32% are within a year so I’m not sure how you conclude most are the same age. Again, I’m not saying there is going to be some massive shift but that 53% could easily go up 5% with more of it coming from that 4 to 14 year range older. You don’t have to see huge percentage shifts. Home ownership going from 60 to 67% (off the top of my head) from the late 90s to 2006 was enough to create a massive housing price bubble.

    But… a pretty big percentage of them specifically wanted to skew young because they were immature and not ready to be with women their own age.

    Jackie, I luv ya, but I’m disappointed to see you play the immaturity card. That’s the standard card to play that a guy going for a younger woman is “immature”.

  • Courtley

    @Gorb

    “A lot of women are also rejecting the more feminized, liberal younger men in larger numbers.”

    Sweet. More of them for me to choose from. :D If all these high-flying hussies you speak of are so hellbent on status and dominance, it must create a niche market of men for reasonably attractive, laid-back, nice beta women in their 20s–especially after college when your social group isn’t restricted to a campus with 40/60 male-female ratio (more like 25/75 at my university).

    I’ve also never known a guy to have trouble dating because he was “too liberal,” but then again, I AM from Oregon . . .

  • Mike C

    I think this one ranks as an “extreme outlier.” I remember seeing somewhere that she was asked about being with him for his money (hasn’t that guy filed for bankruptcy about a million times?). She replied, Would he be with me without my looks?

    Of course it is an outlier, that’s why I gave it as example. I was trying to demonstrate one simple notion. Some level of status and achievement trumps chronological age difference. Now whether most 25-year old female Starbucks barristas are more attracted to a fellow 25-year old male barrista or the 35-year old who works under the CFO at corporate headquarters is more difficult.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    Uh come on…only about 7% had a 9 year or more difference. That’s very much a minority. It might increase a few points depending on economic and other factors but that’s only speculation.

  • Jackie

    @Mike
    “But… a pretty big percentage of them specifically wanted to skew young because they were immature and not ready to be with women their own age.

    Jackie, I luv ya, but I’m disappointed to see you play the immaturity card. That’s the standard card to play that a guy going for a younger woman is “immature”.”
    ===
    :(

    I’m not sure why this is a card– this was my experience. These guys were not as emotionally mature as I was. You have to remember that I had had to grow up *really* fast with a lot of loss. I wanted to talk about some pretty deep topics and they wanted to play video games or watch tv.

    Maybe we were at different places in our lives, is a better way of putting it?

  • Jackie

    I am not saying video games and tv makes one immature. We all know that’s not true.

    I am talking about life plans and goals: Do they have them? How are they progressing towards them? Responsibilities–were they keeping up, or letting stuff slide and other people pick up the slack. When they messed up, did they take responsibility for it, or pass the buck.

    Stuff like that, we were on different pages.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    “Now whether most 25-year old female Starbucks barristas are more attracted to a fellow 25-year old male barrista or the 35-year old who works under the CFO at corporate headquarters is more difficult.”

    And I’m just sayin’, as a 26-year-old who knows a LOT of baristas, that they tend to date . . . other baristas. Maybe lack of opportunity to meet these 35-year-old businessmen…but a lot of them go to Starbucks and not a few of them put phone numbers in tip jars. My friends still tend to date baristas. Businessmen don’t like the same bands, you know. :D

    Now, the 25-year-old female junior partner at an NYC law firm choosing between the 25-year-old barista or the equally attractive 35-year-old businessman? THAT scenario I have less personal data on. But those women are, frankly, a demographic minority right now among young women and are more likely to have ample opportunity to keep hooking up with young hot alphas.

  • Jackie

    Also: One guy was still living at home at 29 years old. There’s nothing wrong with living at home. But he hemmed and hawed around it, and didn’t give an upfront answer. That is what I mean by immature.

    If he was like, Yeah, I travel a ton for work and this way I can stay close to my family, and save money towards a (house, car, etc).

    Taking ownership of your life is what I mean by maturity. These guys, most of them, weren’t doing that.

  • Jackie

    And he took advantage of his parents’ (esp. his mom’s) generosity, in a way that made me think, Time for this bird to leave the nest and take flight!

    Sometimes I think he was hoping I would be like his mom, and do stuff for him so he wouldn’t have to, in addition to all the stuff I had to do for myself.

    Is this starting to make sense? Hard to convey in words, sometimes. :roll:

  • Mike C

    Also: One guy was still living at home at 29 years old. There’s nothing wrong with living at home. But he hemmed and hawed around it, and didn’t give an upfront answer. That is what I mean by immature.

    If he was like, Yeah, I travel a ton for work and this way I can stay close to my family, and save money towards a (house, car, etc).

    Taking ownership of your life is what I mean by maturity. These guys, most of them, weren’t doing that.

    Jackie,

    I misunderstood what you were saying then. I thought you were saying they were IMMATURE because they preferred younger women, NOT BECAUSE of the way they were handling their own personal lives.

  • Jackie

    @Mike C

    Ohhh! Now I get it! ;) Sorry for the confusion, Mike.

    No, not playing that card! I want people to fall in love and be happy together, not compare drivers license DOBs! (Well, maybe if they’re under 18!)

  • Mike C

    Uh come on…only about 7% had a 9 year or more difference. That’s very much a minority. It might increase a few points depending on economic and other factors but that’s only speculation.

    Well, it was never my point that all of a sudden we are going to see some massive increase in 25-year old women marrying men 35+. Your position to me seemed to be that such a thing was unthinkable. This data shows it does happen and my modest position is for a slight increase in that percentage over say the next 10-20 years.

    I don’t know what timespan that second data encompasses (marriages starting when?) but the pictorial graph shows it was higher in 1960/1970 so it might just be a reversal of a 40-50 year old trend. Anyways, now we are really getting into the weeds of granularity. My main point is there is really nothing about the age differential between a 25 and 35 year old that for most women means automatic disqualification as either a STR or LTR prospect. It was interesting to see OTC and Gorb come in with real life examples. I don’t doubt that your personally believe it is skeevy and perhaps some of your friends but a sizable number of women don’t really care about it.

  • Ian

    Courtley,

    Again, I think your average 25-year-old women may be attracted to 35-year-old men for sex, but I think the kind of women who want LTRs in their early 20s are a bit more like me, more likely to stick with guys their own age and be weirded out by ones that much older…

    I’ve done a fair amount of early-20′s to late-20′s dating, and I’ve actually gotten it the other way, girlfriends saying, believably, that they’d have been wary to date me when I was younger and handsomer. Maybe street-wisdom in a STR-biased city culture, maybe something about imprinting/daddy, maybe a distinction between being marriage-minded and LTR-minded.

    I’ll offer that younger-woman attraction has been fairly reliable, easy to find. If men are wired to beauty/low-N and women are wired to status/higher-N, then all that would stands between young women and older men are cultural taboos and the likelihood of meeting. That, and maybe an oncoming potbelly.

  • Kathy

    “I at least am totally skeeved out by the idea of dating a man ten years older than me (I’m 26) and most of my married/LTR friends are very close in age”

    I was as well, Courtley, and never did. I was never attracted to older men.
    My husband is two years older than me.
    I think that when you get to an age difference of 10-20 years, that huge gap can be problematic, for many reasons.
    The most important thing for me would be the physical aspect of the marriage. For some women that’s not a big deal. Many are happy to have the security and a family with a man who has a good career and will therefore be a good provider. Sex is not a big deal for them..

    I wanted a man who had similar views and grew up in the same era as I did. Who was fit and looked after himself (as I did, and still do) Having already been married before, I knew that sex would be an integral part of marriage if I were to marry again.

    Now had I married a man 20 years older than me the chances of frequent sex would be greatly diminished now (I am over 40)

    The facts are that half of men over age 50 suffer from some kind of erectile dysfunction. Because I married a man who is fit does not smoke and does not eat junk food the chances of erectile dysfunction are greatly reduced.
    He has a good body. Not a beer belly.(Susan herself has a fit husband who swims)
    So, by marrying a guy of similar age I do hope to enjoy many more years of lovemaking and ( good company )with him.

    My cousin who at the age of 53 and who separated fromher 54 year old husband around a year ago now has a 67 year old man in her life. She sent me a pic.. Ugh. Guy has a lot of hair, but he has a beer belly and he just looks so old. She on the other hand is fit and swims and rows every day.
    She says that he reminds her of her father.. That he spoils her and treats her well. (rolls eyes)
    When I had lunch with her a few weeks ago, all I could think of was her poor husband.(who did not want the marriage to end) I felt like slapping her face. Daddy issues at her age??? Sheesh! I know that she is not with him for the sex, because she once told me that she could take it or leave it (sex) and she also confided that this guy often had trouble getting it up.

    So, in the end I guess it all comes down to what a woman is looking for in a man. And vice versa. ;)

    I was looking for a man to love and have sex with and to share interests. That was it! YMMV

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The facts are that half of men over age 50 suffer from some kind of erectile dysfunction.

      Is this true?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    If I ruled the world, white sugar, porn and internet/tv would also be classified as drugs of some sort.

    You know some people consider religion the Religion is the opium of the people? Would you like someone you rule your faith as a drug? Ruling things you disagree upon as drugs, is worst than shaming people, BTW.

    Seriously, I know that we are outliers looking for other outliers. It may be difficult, but it’s not impossible.

    There is the type of man that is really selective. My husband is very selective of how and with who he spent his time and this also applies to sex. So his number is never high because for him to consider a woman for sex she needs to be more interesting than any of his games/friends/hubbies/warhammer figures and for what can I tell most of his friends are like that “having better things to do in life that chasing punani attached to generic woman”

    As Ana would say YMMV

    Heh I still can’t believe so many people associate this with me.
    Age difference
    I want to add another perspective is that is true that women can find a man attractive in spite of their age. But then that is something girls should remember when trying to find the guy that they can display this 25 gold points for. That even if at 25 they are attracting all sorts of men of all ages next year the girls that turned 18 are going to be competing for those same men and that men are not hypergamic meaning that a hot a bit younger woman that is offering sex has a huge leverage no matter how sophisticated they are.
    This is part of the logistics that allows for women to “find themselves 39 and single” they assume that their target audience is going to be there when every year passed is more women competition both younger and older with the divorcees also wanting a piece of the male market whether as cougars or looking older. Just add that bit of info to the reasons why single women need to be strategic, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Kathy
    Is funny I was the same way I always liked the “I don’t need a father I already had one” saying to try and shussh out the older men that used to chase me. I never liked too older men, hubby is 4 years older than me.
    I think some age difference is not unhealthy but after 10 + years there is not a lot of long term thinking on this woman choice and that is never good. Like you say sex is going to become a problem , so she is whether not thinking about it or she doesn’t think the relationship won’t last till it does and there is the issue of compatibility “What do you have in common with a whole decade in between?”
    In the third world this happens more often with younger girls falling for older guys but again even in our culture is rare for a woman to go over 10+ years and be in it out of real attraction and not some other perks like money, status or looking for a substitute father.
    In fact after 10 years even the community is thinking something is weird about her, so yeah it does happens but I don’t think is the “women are naturally attracted to older men” is more like “women are more likely than men to overlook age in the right circunstances”
    In the story of literature the plot of the younger wife cheating with the young farmboy/servant on her older husband was common for a reason. Heck talking about the Psyche and Eros story one of Psyche sisters is complaining that her husband is as old as her father when they figure out her sister marry a young hot guy, and that is a story that has thousands of years existing, just my two cents.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Just for the record, wrt older men/younger women *ltr* couplings:

    My mom was 19 when she married my dad who was some 15 years her senior. They remained married for 30 years until his death.

    Two of my three sisters got married to men who were at least a full decade older than themselves; more than a decade on their still married solidly middle class and quite successful in their careers. My remaining single sister has never dated a man her age or younger than herself.

    My elder brother married a woman who was nearly a decade younger than himself; they remained married until his death late last year.

    And for yours truly? Ive had a live-in ltr with a young lady who was the same age as my mom when she married and i was a comparable age when my dad married; as per usual, she sought me out, and we made a very happy three year run of it. Aside from her, ive had quite a few ladies who were at minimum 4-5 years younger than myself with a notable exception here and there.

    Nor is it anything all that unusual; i see guys dating younger gals all the time. No big whup. Even the “fortress astoria” piece in the nyt featured one of the bachelor guys, who is in his early 40s, dating a gal of 25-ran some pretty solid game on her too from what i could tell. Atta boy.

    Im just sayin.

    O.

  • Courtley

    @Mike C

    “Your position to me seemed to be that such a thing was unthinkable. This data shows it does happen and my modest position is for a slight increase in that percentage over say the next 10-20 years.”

    Well, I’m not saying it couldn’t go up a few percentage points. I was thinking more that it’s a risky mating strategy for men to wait until they’re 35+ and then start trying to marry a woman in her early to mid 20s, because it presupposes his status will increase, which simply isn’t guaranteed in this economy . . . while aging physically certainly is. :D

  • Courtley

    @Kathy

    Yes, the practical reasons for not wanting too much of an age gap have always seemed like common sense to me. I suppose I should say that I was also raised to keep this mind–there’s a 5-year age gap between my parents and they are still married after 31 years and happy, but my mother always told us that 5 years was her personal limit and advised against going much older for many of the reasons you stated.

  • Courtley

    @Ian

    “If men are wired to beauty/low-N and women are wired to status/higher-N, then all that would stands between young women and older men are cultural taboos and the likelihood of meeting.”

    I think women who are most wired to higher status and high-N are definitely more likely to go for older men. But, believe men, plenty of women out there are wired for a partner with common interests and life experience. Hence the reason that according to the most recent data, only 7% of American couples had a 9-year-or-bigger age gap.

  • Courtley

    @Ian

    That should be “believe ME.” Don’t always believe men.

    @Anacona

    ““I don’t need a father I already had one” saying to try and shussh out the older men that used to chase me.”

    That’s how I feel as well. My father and I get on great, I have great uncles and grandfather and just, in general, that role in my life is very filled.

    I’m sure there’s some good-looking 35-year-old men out there and some 25-year-old women willing to marry them, but the age difference matters more and more as both age and compounds many aspects of a relationship. ‘Age is just a number’ is a silly sentiment IMO. It’s absolutely more than that, and most young women are cognizant of factors like this when selecting a husband (as opposed to a hook-up or a boyfriend).

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    “If men are wired to beauty/low-N and women are wired to status/higher-N, then all that would stand between young women and older men are cultural taboos and the likelihood of meeting. That, and maybe an oncoming potbelly.”

    Yep, thats about it.

  • VD

    I at least am totally skeeved out by the idea of dating a man ten years older than me (I’m 26) and most of my married/LTR friends are very close in age

    I suspect the latter is because at 26, your married friends were married young. If a 10-year age difference skeeves you out, you would do well to marry in the next four years. Women usually marry men their own age when they marry before 25. Women between the ages of 25 and 30 tend to marry men 1-3 years older. The spread widens with age because of the increasing divergence between declining female attractiveness and increasing male status.

    By the time you are 35, you will almost have to marry a man who is 45+ unless you are going to significantly lower your standards. I think you’ll discover at that point that you will prefer an older man with a higher status, better-paying job than a man your own age who lives with his parents, is a level 80 wizard in his favorite MMO, and is only sporadically employed. You’re barely post-college age and I’m guessing you don’t work in an office, so you still have a relatively immature outlook on socio-sexual dynamics. Once you’re around the big dogs and you start seeing hotter women than you vying for their attention, the puppies suddenly don’t seem quite as sexually attractive. They may be cute, but they’re not going to give you the domination you find enticing and fulfilling.

    That’s just how it works. I’m in my 40s and not particularly tall or handsome. But I am an executive, in excellent physical condition, and while I am largely invisible to the 18-25 crowd, pretty women in their late twenties and thirties regularly seek to make eye contact with me. Of course, I have the benefit of a high level of pre-selection, since my wife is very slender, blonde, and beautiful.

  • unigirl

    Hey, I think people might have maybe misunderstood me on that last point a bit perhaps,

    I wasn’t talking about a girl that everyone’s been with, obviously noone wants that, for example, a friend of mine said she was out with her boyfriend the other night and he said ‘I can see everyone else looking but I get to take you home’ something like that, and when my ex first took me out he said he’d had compliments off his friends about me, and he seemed happy enough.
    You hear stuff like that a lot, so I was wondering if some men don’t mind having a woman other people are attracted to on their arm that’s all. I could also see why others would think it’s too much trouble though, if that’s all you meant.
    Just didn’t want everyone thinking I was trying to say men want sluts or something!

  • Kathy

    “By the time you are 35, you will almost have to marry a man who is 45+ unless you are going to significantly lower your standards. I think you’ll discover at that point that you will prefer an older man with a higher status, better-paying job”

    I don’t think you quite get it VD.

    It depends on what a woman wants, as I said.

    Women who are desperate to marry because they want a kid and a walking wallet will take whatever is going . Mostly they will eventually leave the poor guy (as did my cousin who managed to have two lovely boys) Silly selfish bitch..

    Older men end up with(younger) women who have an agenda. They do not fall head over heals for an old guy.

    Women who seek out a man for reciprocal love, sex and companionship, and find it, worship the ground that their man walks on.

    “I’m in my 40s and not particularly tall or handsome. But I am an executive, in excellent physical condition, and while I am largely invisible to the 18-25 crowd, pretty women in their late twenties and thirties regularly seek to make eye contact with me”

    Of course they do!!!

    Proves my point.

    They do not want you for you, only what they can get out of you.

  • unigirl

    Definately wasn’t trying to get the opposing view from the opposing camp either, I’m not disagreeing or trying to say you all want sluts, just picking all of your brains really. I really don’t want to get lumped in that box!

    I read a comment from a commenter saying men don’t want a woman that’s sexually desired by other men, nothing about having actually done anything sexually with other men, but if you desire her, of course others will too, and then it just got me wondering aloud about some of those comments I’ve heard in the past.
    I think maybe I wasn’t clear enough with the comments, my comments are a still a bit clunky.

  • Just1X

    @Unigirl

    “You hear stuff like that a lot, so I was wondering if some men don’t mind having a woman other people are attracted to on their arm that’s all. I could also see why others would think it’s too much trouble though, if that’s all you meant.”

    If there’s trust of her then interest from others is a bit of an ego boost, on the other hand there’s the ‘too much trouble’ side of it. Most men would be arranged along that spectrum of views.

    You’re in the right ballpark with your musings IMHO-FWIW. It isn’t a strict rule kind of thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I watched LOG last night – not my cup of tea! My husband’s away – I suspect he would like it better. It did have some funny moments, but I confess the comedy I like least is men dressing up as women. Those were always my least favorite skits on Monty Python as well.

      The best bit was Chinnery – I’d definitely like to see more of him.

  • unigirl

    Thanks, that’s all it is with me, musings, I’m not so dead stuck on anything I couldn’t be explained out of it.

  • Kathy

    Yes! I am not into bullshitting, Susan. ;)

    Men over 50 who are fit and healthy are less likely to experience such problems.

    Ya know, there really are a few women like you me and many of the other ladies here who really do enjoy sex with the man that they love.. ..

    What sense does it make to marry a man 20 years older?

    Seriously!

    Your fit husband is definitely a keeper, Suse. ;)

  • Courtley

    @VD

    “I suspect the latter is because at 26, your married friends were married young.”

    Yes, and I said that. Part of my original point was that there’s a certain bracket where certain types of LTR-oriented people get together, usually in and just after college. The women in these situations are unlikely to be looking at 35-year-old men and prefer partners their own age.

    “I think you’ll discover at that point that you will prefer an older man with a higher status, better-paying job”

    No, I won’t prefer that, but my options will indeed be more limited among men my own age and obviously 35-year-old men who lives with parents and are sporadically employed tend to make dubious candidates. I don’t know what my approach will be if I’m unmarried at 35–having children has never been hugely important to me, I’m not opposed to it with the right partner but I wouldn’t get married just to have them and definitely would not get into a loveless marriage for the ‘status.’

    I also absolutely cannot imagine the mentality of a woman trying to make flirtatious eye contact with a man who has a hot slender blonde on his arm, that seems like a colossal waste of time and energy. Are you sure they’re not checking out your wife to try and figure out where she gets her hair done or buys her clothes? Women check out other, attractive women non-sexually all the time because we subconsciously want to imitate them. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the man she’s with.

    “Once you’re around the big dogs and you start seeing hotter women than you vying for their attention, the puppies suddenly don’t seem quite as sexually attractive. They may be cute, but they’re not going to give you the domination you find enticing and fulfilling.”

    This is just hilarious bullshit from someone who must have a social circle comprised of women who are, apparently, quite different from me.

    I’ve been around men like you quite enough, thanks. My dad, fortunately, is awesome but I’ve got some uncles with younger trophy-wife-types and I’m very familiar with the type of dudebros who “run with the big dogs” and believe that this is what everyone wants from life. Ick.

    But I have to say I’m tickled that I got love advice from someone who uses ‘VD’ as their internet handle. :D

  • Courtley

    @Kathy
    “They do not want you for you, only what they can get out of you.”

    Which is all that he and men like him believe, or wants to believe, or need to believe, that women are capable of wanting.

    I can’t wrap my head around what it is like to not know a lot of couples who love each other and are happily married in partnership-type marriages for non-material motivations. Sure, I know some folks who got divorced. I know some unhappy couples. I know some unhappy singles. But I know a lot of happily married and in love people, from friends my age to my grandparents and all ages in between.

    I know good people. I am lucky, I suppose.

  • Kathy

    “I can’t wrap my head around what it is like to not know a lot of couples who love each other and are happily married in partnership-type marriages for non-material motivations.”

    Me either, Courtley..

    My parents.. My husbands’ parents..My brother, my husband’s four brothers and his sister.. Our close friends.. All happily married..

    “I know good people. I am lucky, I suppose.”

    Me too!

    You’ll meet a good guy, Courtley. You sound like a girl who has it all together. :)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    David, I like your feedback-control analogy and would have used it if only I had thought of it.

    Jackie, re: high SMV men with low N. I can describe two personal friends who may represent archetypes for this rare breed. The first is deeply religious and patriotic and has a low N because his moral conceptual framework views casual sex as a sin. He has served in various high-end combat units spanning two services—first in the Marine Corps, now as an operator in the Army’s most elite and mysterious group—and multiple deployments to Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

    In a sense, he is already “married” to two things: his faith and the battlefield. The strict ethical base that has given him such a low N (probably N=1-2) in the face of his epic physical and psychological studhood is inseparably linked to him being an evangelical Christian with an apocalyptic worldview and an extremely dangerous profession.

    The second man is equally high SMV (attained through a different route: he’s less of the physical demigod than the first guy, but has had a more prestigious academic education and makes the serious $$$) and similarly low N (N=4). The explanation for his sexual choosiness is that his standards are extremely high: he rejects women because he finds that their cars are “messy”, because they are revealed to have “unattractive knees”, because they mispronounce a menu item at a French restaurant, because they attempt to cook for him and he finds the meal to be substandard (he is accomplished in the kitchen), because they “are philistines and like shitty music”, etc., etc., etc. The most popular rejection involves the woman in question being “emotionally unstable”, which is something that he tests for by deliberate provocation. Little female quirks that another man might find cute or even endearing are seen by this man as borderline repulsive.

    I guess the moral of the story is that there is no free lunch. You can find a high SMV man with low N, but it may come packaged with either violently intolerant metaphysics (and a related sense of duty) or entitlement-fueled extreme perfectionism. In either case, you are dealing with a very judgmental individual who will impose his high standards on you, just as he has imposed them on many others and found them wanting.

    In the final analysis, a woman might actually find it easier to deal with high SMV/high N, but I can definitely understand the appeal of the Galahad.

  • Kathy

    “Which is all that he and men like him believe, or wants to believe, or need to believe, that women are capable of wanting.”

    Yes, that’s very true, Courtley.. You are a very perceptive young women.
    It’s sad, though isn’t it.
    I guess for some men, having a pretty woman on their arm as a trophy is enough recompense.

    Bit like this.

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2010/12/30/1293716119080/HOWARD-J.-MARSHALL-AND-AN-007.jpg

    Look at the goofy (deluded) grin on that poor old guy’s face.

  • Courtley

    @Kathy

    Ha! Priceless shot.

    I’d like to think I’ll meet someone nice. :) What I won’t be meeting is a 45-year-old man who works for powerful corporations that would never employ me with lots of swagger and super hot, high-estrogen women competing for his attention. Although I’m sure that would be an incredibly entertaining work environment. :D

  • Zach

    @Courtley

    I think you’re overestimating the number of “highly-paid, high-powered” women in NYC. While I certainly know a good number of women who are in finance, law, etc, the majority (large majority) of women I know in NYC, even those who went to my school, work in fashion, PR, or a related field. While these may be prestigious careers in the eyes of many women, they do NOT pay well. Just because they have high-powered (many people in fashion work as much as bankers) careers does not mean they’re rich.

    Second, from listening to girls I know, degrees are often treated as just as important, if not more important, than profession. When hearing a new guy described, I just as often hear “Harvard MBA” as “Goldman Sachs”. In fact, often the former is mentioned before the latter even if the two go together.

    Third, I don’t think you realize how much the marriage market is stacked towards men in cities like NYC. There have been articles written about women moving out of New York to find a husband. There are just so many options for men here that they tend to settle down much, much later than elsewhere (average age of first marriage for men in NY State in 2009 was 30, and that includes all of upstate as well).

  • Courtley

    @Zach

    I could be overestimating them. I’ve been to New York twice on vacation, never lived there, so I suppose I stereotype it.

    I do know that there are more single young men on the West Coast than on the East and I’ve heard there’s a tight ‘marriage market’ in NYC. To me that’s just another on a long list of reasons to live on the WC. :)

    But I think you’re kind of making my point for me, that the young professionals in NYC/big cosmopolitan cities have a bit of a different SMP than young people in other places who are perhaps, if not less wealthy, still less prestigiously-employed. I often have a hard time relating to what people from these places say about the dating scene there; it just doesn’t match my reality. That does not mean what other posters from those cities are saying is untrue, at all–like I said, I’m curious about the differences.

  • Ted D

    “Just for the record, wrt older men/younger women *ltr* couplings:”

    Just to add more info to the mix:

    I was 5 years older than my ex-wife, and I’m 8 years older than my current wife.

  • evilalpha

    RE:The age thing.

    The hamster in women desperately wants everyone to believe that a 35 year old man has the same limited marriage options as a 35 year old woman, so it spins out stuff like this..

    “Older men end up with(younger) women who have an agenda. They do not fall head over heals for an old guy.”
    “They do not want you for you, only what they can get out of you.”

    The implicit message: Younger woman = gold digger…because of course older men have nothing to offer women other than cash…or something like that.
    The self serving hope: Men will view younger women with suspicion.
    The potential SMP benefit: Decreased female competition and improved opportunities for mates that no longer view her as “too old”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The hamster in women desperately wants everyone to believe that a 35 year old man has the same limited marriage options as a 35 year old woman, so it spins out stuff like this..

      I don’t think so. I think women understand the reality of this. And Courtley is young, she’s 10 years away from worrying about that. I do think there’s a tradeoff that occurs. Women prefer men within 3 years of their own age, all th