Young women today are encouraged to explore their sexuality as a form of empowerment. At the same time, we discourage them from seeking a committed relationship too early. This has produced a culture of no-strings sex and failed attempts to secure meaningful relationships, and many women are expressing their dissatisfaction with this script.
The first step in changing this dynamic is acknowledging sex differences. Embrace your femininity rather than your overt sexuality. Offer genuine emotional companionship. Lose the entitlement and shift your focus to giving.
Here are 25 things that men seek in a girlfriend. If you can cultivate and internalize these behaviors, you will be way out in front of the pack, because few women understand how important these qualities are to men.
Your results will only be as good as the effort you put into self-development, and will only be effective with a worthy man of good character. Don’t expect to flip a player with these moves.
Nurture: Escalate emotionally to create intimacy and loyalty.
Men are raised to be stoic, and they become adept at compartmentalizing their emotions. If you can bring out a man’s emotions, and create a safe relationship for him to express them, you’ve given him a gift, and he will repay you with loyalty and affection.
1. Actively support him.
Does he have an interview coming up? A big test? A rough week? Wish him luck, give him encouragement and let him know you are thinking of him. Express interest in hearing how things go, but do not create an obligation for him to report back.
2. Have his back.
In any kind of crisis, take his side. Always. Do not judge him. Whether he handled everything perfectly or needs to make some changes can be sorted out later if necessary.
3. Appreciate him.
Express thanks. Communicate the ways in which he makes your life better. Need him.
4. Physically care for him.
Feed him when he’s hungry. Nurse him when he’s sick. Hug him to show affection. Rub his back.
5. Have eyes for no one but him.
Actively discourage attention from other men. Avoid eye contact with other men. Ignore other men who stare at you or seek to engage you in conversation. Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.
6. Make him look good.
Be proud to be seen in his company, and tell him so. Work hard to engage his coworkers, friends or family in a friendly and generous way. Do not discuss his struggles or weak spots with anyone else. Create opportunities to introduce him to the important people in your life.
Cultivate: Bring effort and energy to the relationship.
7. Develop your own private language and inside jokes.
Whether it’s a nickname, a laugh shared, or a funny mishap, you can promote bonding by highlighting experiences unique to the two of you.
8. Be unconditionally generous.
Do nice things for him without keeping score. Focus on giving rather than taking.
9. Pay sometimes.
If he resists, as many men do, find ways to contribute financially other than splitting the check. Order tickets to a show. Cook him a meal at your place.
10. Remember his favorites.
Pay attention. He loves Maker’s Mark. He hates broccoli. He doesn’t eat pork. The Godfather is his favorite movie. His grandma’s lasagne is his all-time favorite comfort food. Find ways of bringing him pleasure by offering his favorite things.
11. Investigate his interests.
He’s a football fan and you know nothing about the game. Don’t pretend to be psyched for the Super Bowl, then stand around chatting and snacking with zero interest in the outcome.
He loves jazz, you think it’s for old people. Google the greats and then listen to some Miles Davis. Play it next time he comes over. He’ll be delighted you took the time to learn something for him.
Always respect the things he cares about. Never demean his hobbies.
Maintenance: How low can you go?
12. Be a pressure relief valve.
Be low maintenance. Be a safe haven, a person with whom he can be himself, even on his bad days.
If he has to work late, express understanding and flexibility. Don’t expect him to entertain you; offer to stay in sometimes or do something cheap and low key.
13. Do not compete with family and friends.
Appreciate his loyalty to family and friends, and his need to spend time without you in other relationships. Never compete for his affection with people who are important in his life.
14. Reduce your expectations.
Ditch The Rules. Don’t focus on minutiae like how long it took him to reply to your text. In fact, ditch the texting. It’s a terrible way to communicate anything but plans. Reward him for calling with a spontaneous plan on Friday night – say yes if you are free.
15. Avoid controlling and possessive behavior.
Never expect him to read your mind. If he asks what’s wrong and you say “Nothing,” it’s on you. Resolve conflict with a minimum of drama, and once resolved, let it go.
Never ask him to account for his time. Don’t ask him how he knows that girl at the bar.
16. Maintain privacy as a couple.
Let him know you’re not cackling with your hens about the relationship or his foibles.
17. Respect his privacy.
Never, ever go through his phone, email, facebook, etc. I have seen many women fall into this trap, and I once did the old-fashioned snoop for letters myself back in the day.
In addition to this being a form of theft, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by it. There is no upside to snooping. You can’t prove a negative, so you can never really be reassured when you don’t find incriminating evidence. You’re also likely to magnify any perceived infractions.
If you feel the need to stalk his media, it’s a symptom that something is not right in the relationship, and you should address that directly.
18. Suppress your neuroses.
Women are prone to crazy emotional drama, I admit it. It’s almost always best not to show this side of yourself to a man. Work out your emotional baggage with a therapist or close friend. You’ll be glad in two months that you never shared your paranoia that he had the hots for your sister or that you were sure he was dumping you that time his phone ran out of juice.
19. Stay sober.
Don’t be a sloppy drunk, it signals low value in every conceivable way. He might enjoy getting to see you tipsy now and then, but blackout drunk is never attractive.
20. Resolve conflict without emotional excess.
Express disappointment judiciously and without drama. Reward the behaviors you like, and withhold approval for behaviors you don’t like. Listen to his point of view. Never allow girlfriends to direct your actions or suggest confrontation.
Be his sex goddess.
21. Delay sex until you have achieved emotional intimacy.
He’s not going to commit to you for the sex, so you want to create a foundation for a relationship before you have sex. He should be thinking, “This girl is awesome, now if only the sex is great…”
22. Perform aural sex.
Tell him you want to be alone with him at a time when you have to wait. Tell him what you find sexy about him. Tell him you are so hot for him and only him. Talk dirty to him. Share a fantasy. A few whispered words can send an electric shock through a man’s body. Too many women neglect this form of seduction.
23. Jump his bones.
Surprise him, initiate physical contact. Men often say they want a girl who is a slut for them only. Let go of inhibitions and modesty. Be his sex goddess. Give him plenty of reinforcement when he turns you on.
24. Connect emotionally during and after sex.
Make eye contact. Be a bit vulnerable. Tell him your favorite physical things about him – his chin, his elegant hands, that small spot on his face where no whiskers grow, the soft area between his shoulder and chest that makes such a perfect pillow for your cheek.
Accept him “as is.”
25. Never go into a relationship with an idea of changing a man into what you really want.
These actions will help seal the deal with an emotionally available and mature man. Before you try for commitment with a man, you should qualify him as relationship material. Even one month of your time and effort spent on a player is a total waste.
For every bit of effort you make, he should be right there meeting you halfway. He should be:
- Interested.
- Reliable.
- Consistent.
- Moving the relationship forward.
You will need to be patient. It takes time to develop genuine intimacy and closeness. But you should see these four qualities at all times. If any of these are missing, he’s not a good match for you. Cut your losses and drive on.
{ 1351 comments… read them below or add one }
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Feminists are caught between a rock and a hard place re ONSs. On one hand, they want women to feel empowered by “having sex like men,” which will eradicate the sexual double standard, in their view. At the same time, women generally don’t have ONSs without getting drunk first, which makes consent highly problematic and legally speaking, impossible. So sex-positive feminists are staunchly supporting hookup culture while bemoaning the increase of nonconsensual sex.
This just proves that women cannot have sex like men, because when those two “guys” disagree, the stronger “guy” is going to prevail if he chooses to force the issue. And that’s going to be the guy with a penis. I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped, but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.
By “cheek” I mean butt cheek. Fir me, a strike to the face would switch things from sex to rape in my mind, and at that point dude would be catapulted out of bed in seconds.
Reading my comment, it sounds harsher than I intended. Thanks for always being unflappable.
Yes, it is harsh.
Sassy wrote this.
“When I mention being hit during sex, I’m talking about being slapped at most. Being punched during sex would throw me off my game and ruin the mood”
Basically Sassy wants to be manhandled…which doesn’t even count as BDSM ( altogether in a different category). Common female sexual desires such face slapping, ass spanking, wrist and ankle grabbing, and being pounded is not something I would have expected you to be at least tolerant of even if not into it yourself.
@Jimmy
I disagree. Having an out is immaterial when the commitment is 100%. Wedding vows provide a 100% true commitment, it’s just that many people violate or reneg on that promise.
It’s possible to stay unhappily married and feel zero commitment or love for one’s spouse. The commitment may be to the children, the financial support, fear of change, etc. What we’re seeing today is increased dissolution of marriages where the commitment has eroded.
Re: feminists and defining rape
I think feminists are doing a great disservice to victims of violent rape by attempting to lump regrettable sex into the same category as aggressive rape.
I think their efforts to do this might be inspired by the fact that in many cultures, victims of rape, or at least female participants in non-welcomed yet non-forced sex, are considered whores, flat out. Feminists are pushing back against the idea that any time a penis enters a woman (welcomed or not) she gains a point on the whore scorecard (aka female N count).
The feminist push-back might be meant to defend unfairly judged women and girls, but it isn’t the smartest strategy, IMO. I think that women should be encouraged to be selective and to try to keep the N count low, and that men should be encouraged to calm down extremist views of women’s N counts.
@evilalpha
I missed Sassy’s disavowal of punching, which I guess was an interpretation by Just1X. Here’s what she said first:
This amendation seems less aggressive:
From “hit in the face” to “a slap or two” strikes me as materially different, and I was obviously not alone. Just1X, Mike C and J were also taken aback.
First, I do not believe all of those behaviors are common female sexual desires. To the extent that they are more common than they used to be, I attribute that directly to porn.
1. being pounded: fucked hard, every woman likes that sometimes.
2. Wrist and ankle grabbing: again, very intense, I would think most people’s sex lives include these
3. Ass spanking: ubiquitious in porn, something men expect during sex, many women comply and enjoy this. I would note that most women are not into pain – I am talking about a playful slap here, not something that would leave a mark or bruise.
4. Face slapping: Not common even in mainstream porn. Of all the behaviors listed, the one most likely to occur in real domestic abuse.
This raises an interesting question – when do consensual acts that cause injury become improper or illegal? If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?
For the record, Sassy and one male commenter here have said they enjoy being choked during sex. Asphyxiation to heighten orgasm is a well-known masturbation tactic among males, and from time to time men accidentally commit suicide this way, e.g. David Carradine. However, to my knowledge, there is no similar form of female masturbation. This behavior is clearly driven by male desire and demands during sex.
I haven’t seen any research on this, but I hypothesize that these behaviors, especially slapping and choking, are generally practiced by the most promiscuous women (along with rimming and casual anal sex). Sassy is not promiscuous, so she is unusual in this regard.
You are new here, but based on Sassy’s past stories of her father (bad news, alpha), I strongly suspect a connection. That’s the last I’ll say on the matter, especially since Sassy has just shared she’ll be busy over the next few days and may not be online.
I’ve been hesitant to nourish my feminine side (I know I have one somewhere), because I have negative ideas about femininity. I’ve considered it to be a form of weakness, and I’ve thought that it’s beneath me.
Pride.
Not only do I have a hard time understanding and accepting femininity, due to my ENTP profile, but I also avoid opening up to men because I fear being hurt. As I’ve stated before, I don’t have many positive experiences with men. I put a wall around my heart to keep myself from getting hurt, but the same wall keeps good men out as well. I don’t open up, and men decide not to open up to me as a result. I’m shooting myself in the foot, basically.
Fear.
Sassy, your issues are pretty straightforward. You think of yourself as superior to other, more feminine women, which is why your pride rebels at the idea of “lowering” yourself to behave/become more like them. But, speaking as an astoundingly arrogant individual, pride is truly worthless. About all it is good for is irritating other people. Don’t let it get in the way of pursuing love and marriage.
As for the emotional cowardice, well, pain is life. If you live life without risking getting hurt, you will live without feeling. Even the most powerful joys are bittersweet because even while one is experiencing them, one knows they cannot last forever. There are moments in my children’s lives that I would cheerfully murder a thousand people with my bare hands to be able to experience one more time, and yet even as I was experiencing them, I felt the pain of knowing it would have to end.
You’re living life as a chrysalis. Break out, spread your wings, and learn to fly. It’s worth it, even if you crash from time to time.
” I have never heard of a dynamic where women want to get punched in the face. It’s so violent, so not controlled, that it strikes me as much more than rough play. The fact that it’s a behavior that mimics anger and agression is perhaps what sets it apart from other consensual acts. Now, it may be that a violent man turns you on. If so, I urge you to be very careful, because the men who will enjoy hitting your face are very likely to not want to stop there.”
As a society we have to ask ourselves why violent porn, whether of a sexual nature or not, is so coveted by so many. Eckert Tolle says the desire for such originates in what he calls the pain body. Its not healthy. Normal? Normal just means something that has been normalized and if there are millions of viewers, well then its “normal”. Normal does not mean healthy. Normal does not mean nothing is wrong. Its wrong.
“If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself, if you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation.”
Yes. Why as a society are we so opposed to the eliminating suffering and so in favor of perpetuating it? Why are we so opposed to light and so pro darkness?
Something is wrong with us. Very wrong. And that goes for sex week if they are teaching students about BDSM. Education is meant to free us, not bind us, literally!
…if you are unfamiliar with the rape victim = whore dynamic, the movie City of God (set in Brazil) has an example. After one character’s girlfriend (presumably a virgin) was beat and raped by the antagonist, while the character was forced to watch, that character discussed with a friend what should be done now that the antagonist had “turned his girlfriend into a whore.” I also remember hearing about post-disaster violence and crime in Asia, where one unfortunate outcome was suicide and depression amongst women who had been “turned into whores” after they were raped.
Not to say that this the case in the US and other Western countries, but just pointing out something that feminists use to support their own side, albeit out of context. It’s kind of sad that feminists are busy waging a sexual revolution against men from cultures where the most pressing injustices are not really being committed. In the mean time, harsh oppression is continuing to occur in the toughest battle grounds.
@Susan, could be my bad.
My recollection is (but some comments have been deleted, so may or may not still be true in the record)(And maybe it was a semi-senior-moment (not quite old enough for pure senior-moment):
a statement prior to Sassy’s mentioning a punch to the face and more prosaic slap and tickle
Sassy said something along the lines of enjoying stuff that was beyond vanilla.
I put the two together, surprised (as you say), which is not necessarily what Sassy meant at the time (and indeed she denies it being what she meant)
Then Sassy set the record straight on the extremity of what she meant.
So, I could have been wrong about the preceding comment (that I can’t find in a quick search), AND/OR I was definitely wrong in putting that interpretation on what Sassy said. I certainl don’t recall Sassy saying that she liked the extreme stuff explicitly.
mea possibly culpa, however, I’ve gotta say that the comments remained sane and sensible on the subject (however it got started). I like that about this site.
@July 16th
Thanks for your comment. As an Eckhart Tolle fan, I appreciate your linking requested violent acts to the pain body.
I also think your point about “normal” is important. There is much that is considered normal today that I write against on this blog, because I feel that it is detrimental to individuals and to society.
It is considered normal to put physical intimacy in front of emotional intimacy, but that does not mean it is healthy or good.
“sex-positive feminists are staunchly supporting hookup culture while bemoaning the increase of nonconsensual sex.”
Then their new bitchin slogan is “all sex with strangers is rape”
Sad as that is, nearly all men would prefer to avoid commitment to serial “rape victims.” So then, what have feminists gained?
Speaking as a British guy on erotic choking and related matters
(stop laughing at the back)
The British ‘lost’ an MP (~congressman) to autoerotic asphyxiation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Milligan
“His corpse was discovered in what was presumed to be a state of autoerotic asphyxiation, combined with self-bondage and cross-dressing. A detail of his death, which was the subject of much comment and speculation at the time, was that he was found to have had an orange segment in his mouth at the time of his death”
There seems to be something about Conservatives (~Republicans) and sex scandals, whilst the Labour Party (further left than your Democrats) does financial scandals preferentially. The Liberals (in our middle) tend to do homosexuality.
Perhaps there’s something about sex and pub(l)ic power messed up in some politicians’ minds? I mean you had the Kennedys and Clinton’s cigar…
(And yes, on this I claim to be British, as I refuse to let the ‘others’ off the hook)
“This raises an interesting question – when do consensual acts that cause injury become improper or illegal? If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?”
=====
Yikes. Very glad not to be some kind of judge or evaluator of public standards right about now!
To be honest, the discussion of being hit, slapped, choked and/or otherwise hurt during sex is upsetting to think about. (To me, at least.)
Consenting adults have the legality to do these things. But it seems very strange that the same things that would be battery or assault or attempted murder, in a non-sexual scenario– legally, the kind of thing you could go to jail for– would be okay during sex.
It seems very odd to inflect serious pain (bruises, broken bones, etc) on someone that you love. Or want someone to inflict that pain on you. Wrong for me, at least!
As for the example above, I would examine the person’s relationships (romantic and platonic), apart from the sex. Are they healthy? Relating to others in a positive manner?
Do they feel safe enough to express vulnerability? Their authenticity? Can they be “real” or is everything just the re-enactment of a porn movie?
How do they respond to positive touch?– I would think that would be quite telling as well.
Again, it seems like we have come down the discussion of legal vs. ethical. Which is always a grey zone (but not 50 Shades of Grey!
) but can spark some really interesting debates.
Susan, my N is not particularly high, but, I have never known a girl to NOT desire having her hair pulled and ass spanked.
I don’t mean that she was open to it, but that she actively wanted it. Granted, things like comfort, and vulnerability are important factors.
@ Susan Walsh
Even I would never engage in rimming. A woman has got to know her limits.
Aside from that, I’m not promiscuous, but I’ve always embraced my kinky side in relationships.
I forget sometimes that not everyone is into what I’m into.
“For the record, Sassy and one male commenter here have said they enjoy being choked during sex. Asphyxiation to heighten orgasm is a well-known masturbation tactic among males, and from time to time men accidentally commit suicide this way, e.g. David Carradine. However, to my knowledge, there is no similar form of female masturbation. This behavior is clearly driven by male desire and demands during sex.”
My first roomate in college nearly killed his girlfriend this way, IIRC. If she had died, he would have certainly been arrested. Granted, he did serve time over winter break, but that was for an unreleated and non-violent felony.
The guy who lived across the hall in college from me would slap his girlfriend very hard with backhand slaps.
I found much of college life profoundly bizarre and very unsettling.
“If a woman wants to be hit in the face and winds up with a black eye, whose business is that? Has the male done anything wrong? What if it’s a female high school senior, of legal age to have sex, but alarming her parents and teachers with her consistently bruised face?”
Very problematic and the high school girl needs counseling and grounding with internet privilges taken away. My first question would be, “where did you ever get this idea from?” Its high time we seriously looked into our culture, post haste.
“I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped”
Unless they have. If somebody’s drunk, and you’re not, why have sex with them in the first place? As the more sober party you are risking jail time, and that goes for women who can take advantage of men in that situation too. I’ve known of a few cases.
“but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.”
Really? With or without the use of date rape drugs?
@Just1x
Just1x, in the US, it usually goes like this:
Republicans –particularly those who preach “fambly values”:
Either esoteric stuff like David Vitter’s diaper fetish with the DC Madam or Jack Ryan (who was married to Seven of Nine from Star Trek “Voyager”!) who forced his wife to attend sex clubs with cages, whips and bondage.
Or, more commonly, right-wingers denouncing gay people only to be found having secret boyfriends and male escorts. (I feel sorrier for those types– there’s got to be a lot of self-hatred involved.)
Democrats: Less weirdness, more low-life scummy stuff.
Like John Edwards cheating on his wife dying of cancer and having a baby with some new-age weirdo with 4 different names. Lying the whole time, of course. Anthony Weiner sent “sexting pics” to other women while his wife was pregnant. Sometimes you get the odd “furry” like David Wu, but it’s more like the exception that makes the rule!
It’s interesting you bring up Clinton– as it came up in conversation with my mentor, who is a nun! We both agreed that, really, it was no one’s business– everyone knew he was a cheater when he got elected– he should said, None of your damn business, I’ve got a country to run!
Lying and parroting phony morality and sanctimony is somehow worse than whatever he did with Monica. And I HATE cheaters! Maybe this is a stupid question, but I can’t understand why Hillary didn’t leave him? Anyway.
Here’s a list of US political sex scandals, although it notes “this may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness”. My favorite was the taunt given at rallies of President Cleveland for supposedly fathering an illegitimate child.
Ma, Ma, where’s my Pa?
Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_scandals_in_the_United_States#1776.E2.80.931899
@Jackie
“(a bit of) slap and tickle Brit informal sexual play”
not a US term, I gather…
we’re not talking full force slaps, more like playful spanking etc.
I don’t really mind what two well informed sane individuals get up to in private. I remember a scandal about (IIRC) some gay guys getting prosecuted for sand papering each others’ testicles. As a straight, young teenager, I wondered what the fuss was? I had no interest in giving or taking, but hey , chaque a son gout (each to their own taste).
(on topic Have you seen what the hotel owners get up to in TLOG?)
(BTW series 3 is rather different to 1 & 2, unfortunately)
@ VD
That’s very beautiful VD, and thanks for the advice. When everything in my situation has been boiled down, it really does amount to pride and fear.
@ Just1X
For clarification purposes, I never meant being punched. I agreed with the word “hit”, which another poster said, but it seems that everyone took that to mean “punch” instead of “slap”. I’ve never received a bruise from such an activity, and the reality of the activity is way less harsh than what people imagine it to be. It indeed is more akin to “slap and tickle”.
*Susan Walsh*: I didn’t want to bring this topic back up, but I felt that I should clarify some things because the topic is still being discussed by others.
@Jackie 375
I say guilt, because it’s not regret. I don’t like doing that to people, and I don’t feel that she deserved it. She didn’t do anything wrong, we just weren’t compatible for the long term. That’s why I feel guilty.
Re: intimate acts. There actually wasn’t much discussion surrounding what she wanted. It was more mid-coitus demands, most of which I was willing to fulfill, some of which I was not. Obviously I don’t view sex being as intimate as you feel it is, but for me once it’s at that boundary (sex), that’s kind of the final intimacy frontier. To me there’s no intimacy difference between plain vanilla missionary and whatever crazy things porn directors can think of.
@Mike C 377
Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.
@evilalpha 411
By partially right I mean what you were right about was I was getting a bit bored with what was done in the bedroom, but that there were no issues with location or frequency. My thought was given the experiences that I’ve had, it’s probably going to take a more sexually creative woman to satisfy me than for other guys.
@Zach:
“Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.”
Yuck. I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes.
J1X,
TLOG:
The Youtube for Beast of Royston Vasey keeps freezing and restarting, so I am yet on series 1!
Argh!
(This is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrP2s9_PXk
My other youtubes are able to play, not sure why these BBC links are messing with me. Maybe I am being foiled by Tubbs?)
I ordered the series from Netflix, so hopefully I will get it this week. I am hoping they have subtitles on the DVD — yes, I know it’s in english!– but I think I am missing some of the more clever humor by not understanding the words!
There’e more than enough comedy gold to go around, tho!
“That is certainly eye-opening. Perhaps that oft-used cheater’s excuse “but she didn’t mean anything to me” should be rephrased as “I used her to unload because you wouldn’t let me unload on/in you.”
I’ve talked with a lot of men of various ages and backgrounds and most of them say the stereotypical view of men as thinking of sex every other second, itching to unload, what Smith and Doe are saying, etc is highly exaggerated. If a man is extremely high libido and cannot satisfy himself when his partner is unable or unwilling to have sex, then monogamy is not for him and he shouldn’t pretend it is.
“I see sex along a spectrum, from beast to human. Beast sex is confrontational, where the male or top abuses/humiliates the female or bottom. Choking, cursing at the other person (“you filthy blankety blank!”), and face slaps fall into this category. Human sex is more like partner dancing (salsa, tango, synch swimming, etc.). I skew heavily toward human sex. I can’t stand jackhammers and only feel that a slap on the cheek is appropriate as a spirited response, or cue to stay in rhythm.
Beast sex can be dangerous. Consenting partners have the right to engage, but as far as offering guidance and advice for it, I’ve got nothin.”
Why is beast sex being taught at universities? If people are into that, fine, but why pimp it like a product to the rest of us?
@Jackie – so, some correlation between pollies and risk taking of whatever flavour? As you say, it’s the lying that I hate the most, but to be fair, I wouldn’t vote for them if I knew the truth.
Perhaps we’re better off with someone like Winston Churchill? (http://haruth.com/hd/fly.htm)
Though my favourite story about him is was when some old ratbag said that, “if I were your wife, I’d poison your tea”. “Madam”, he replied, “if you were my wife, I’d drink it”
(goodnight)
@Just
No worries. I find that one source of confusion is the ever changing cast of characters here. I’ve “known” you and Sassy for ages, and we’ve all been on many threads together. Evilalpha is brand new, so he doesn’t have the benefit of many past conversations that may inform current responses. Misunderstandings are bound to occur. Also, especially on the weekend, I have less time, am more likely to skim, and so may miss something here or there.
I do believe that Sassy is the best I’ve ever seen at receiving constructive feedback without getting defensive. She’s remarkable that way. She’d make an excellent blogger.
@ RWC:
I agree, as I also see sex as existing on a spectrum. Though, the term “beast sex” made me chuckle!!
In my mind, I classify it as light and dark, and rough play resides on the darker side of the spectrum of human sexual expression — along with kinks & BSDM. The common links being elements of pain, humiliation, and exploring/subverting power dynamics. On the lighter side would reside conventional/vanilla sex acts (oral, mutual masturbation, penetrative sex) with an emphasis on pleasure, fun, and/or emotional connection.
Passion and intensity can be found on both sides of the spectrum! I think when people declare vanilla as “boring”, it just means that they personally need a mix of pain & pleasure in their sexual activities (and as such, prefer the darker side of the spectrum!).
@Zach
“I don’t feel that she deserved it. She didn’t do anything wrong, we just weren’t compatible for the long term. That’s why I feel guilty.”
======
You have always said you’re up front and honest about everything. You weren’t leading her on or making promises you weren’t going to keep. It’s obviously a valid emotion, though, and you probably should follow it to its source, to really understand yourself so you don’t have to repeat this experience.
I think the thing is, Zach, there is no way you can have repeated serial monogamy– going from GF to GF– without this kind of pain, if you care about someone. The longer you are together, the more you have bonded, since, as you have mentioned you had sex every day. She probably loves you very much, due in large part to bonding.
Someone (Jimmy H?) said earlier that people can leave relationships at any time without commitment or consequence. I disagree and I think you are feeling the consequence of a (necessary) departure.
There is always a tradeoff: You want to be able to have a lot of sex before making sure of emotional/intellectual compatibility, but it’s painful to leave someone who tried so hard to love you but still is not the right match. I believe in abiding by my religious standards but get dumped or cheated on.
That’s the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. But I think if people learn from their experiences, they have the chance to do better in the future and sidestep a lot of pain, next time around.
You’ve heard of the poet, George Santayana, right? Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it.
@Jackie
congrats on the series, don’t forget the audio download link that I gave, it’s got unique stuff in it (including Chinnery and the Hamster).
(def off now, I need my beauty sleep)
Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. ***PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school.***
Zach,
I’m not that surprised. For me, part of unplugging from the Matrix was the realization that you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that you can somehow suss out the quantity and proclivities of some girl A just by the appearances of her daily outside life.
@Jackie:
“You’ve heard of the poet, George Santayana, right? Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it”
The real problem is that life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards – Soren Kierkegaard
Or maybe Time really is an old bald cheater – Ben Jonson
“It was more mid-coitus demands, most of which I was willing to fulfill, some of which I was not. ”
“By partially right I mean what you were right about was I was getting a bit bored with what was done in the bedroom, but that there were no issues with location or frequency. My thought was given the experiences that I’ve had, it’s probably going to take a more sexually creative woman to satisfy me than for other guys.”
I’ve not read the discussion from the beginning but just going by this, if there were some things she wanted sexually that you were unwilling to fulfill, don’t you think you might need to become “more sexually creative” as well?
@Just
(No need to respond– I support beauty sleep!) The Churchill story is hilarious!
Churchill basically ruled this list:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-10-best-comebacks-of-all-time/
Will check out the radio programs– thanks!
I try to ration out my “fix” of superior British shows since I had a Downton Abbey OD earlier this year. 
@Mike C
“you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing.”
======
I think it’s a pretty common trope– the baddest kids are the sons and daughters of preachers and cops (or other morality figures). The more public someone is about their “upstanding role” or piety, the more I tend to be suspicious.
Interestingly enough, I had an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who was a dominatrix. Her clientele? Almost exclusively extremely orthodox Jewish and evangelical Christian men.
Me:The average beta isn’t going to be capable of a certain level of sexual aggressiveness. I’m cool with and enjoy some ass slapping and mild hair pulling (grab right at the base near the neck), but there is some stuff that I just couldn’t get into even if the woman really wanted it.
Ana Mmm is it me or you called yourself Beta? Just curious.
Since you are curious, I don’t think of myself as either alpha or beta, but as a guy with a mix of alpha and beta traits. On some level, I don’t think it is useful to pigeonhole guys as one or the other, but for purposes of discussion sometimes it is necessary, and many guys lean so far towards the beta end of the spectrum, for all intents and purposes they are a beta. On the flipside, I think there are guy with alpha tendencies who really don’t fall into the “douchebag asshat” category that is what is often meant by alpha when the term is used here on this blog.
In the context of this particular discussion (sexual acts and activity) I think there are things that many men would find surprising that many women actually enjoy/get turned on. Ramble hit on this with his comment regarding hair pulling and ass slapping which I had already mentioned. Sex is a primal thing, and often the logical/rational brain totally shuts off and the primal/reptilian brain engages. I suspect like most things we talk about, female preferences vary on a spectrum depending on where they sit on the dominance/submission spectrum. I know there are women who enjoy more assertive/aggressive/dominant sex where they get kind of “manhandled”. To be clear, I know this for a fact. The key line for me that doesn’t get crossed is there is no real pain or violence taking place or any intent to harm. It is more like the playful roughhousing that two young boys or two dogs engage in.
@Mike:
“I’m not that surprised. For me, part of unplugging from the Matrix was the realization that you’d often be surprised at the “who” and “what” of people are into/doing. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that you can somehow suss out the quantity and proclivities of some girl A just by the appearances of her daily outside life.”
When I see “BigLaw”, “moral paragon of chaste virtue” isn’t exactly the picture that pops into my head.
There’s nothing quite like watching a married law partner wander around at a party wondering whether his associate mistress left without him.
@Just
No sex please…
LMAO at the orange segment bit – what on earth? What was the prevailing theory on that one?
I recall reading an article when my son was a teenager warning parents to keep track of boys’ shower times, because choking play during masturbation is often done during long showers, apparently. There I was, stopwatch in hand, leaning against the bathroom door, when he suddenly opened it after about 4 minutes in the shower, and I fell in. Thankfully, he had no clue what was in my mind. (I exaggerate slightly, a prerogative of Walsh storytellers.)
The sex scandals among conservatives in the U.S. seems sleazier somehow – perhaps it’s just the hypocrisy. Larry Craig’s playing footsie in search of gay sex in an airport bathroom comes to mind.
I think it’s pretty clear that men in power often use that influence to get sex. What’s more, their power gives them an unrealistic sense of being “untouchable.” We’ve seen many politicians fall on that sword – why did Nixon break in to Watergate? On the other hand, the Kennedys were largely untouchable. The fact that Teddy’s career survived Chappaquiddick is really incredible.
@Ramble
I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex. I am not saying anything about whether women enjoy it – they very well may. But I can tell you that this behavior was virtually unheard of in straight sex before the internet. I have never had a sexual partner in my life suggest either, even during a ONS. Nor have I ever heard a woman older than 40 admit experience in this area.
I can tell you that any mother who believed that her daughter was engaging in playful choking during sex would vomit, then cry. You have no idea how sexual mores have changed.
@July 16th
Two different girls I was talking about. The girl referred to in the first quote was a ONS (two nights actually), and I was willing to do everything she was up for except hit her in the face (which she asked me to do).
The second girl is my ex, and my unwillingness was never an issue there.
@Jackie
I haven’t gone from gf to gf. I’ve had 2 girlfriends ever, each relationship lasting less than a year. One of the reasons I actually want to be in a relationship is that I’ve grown tired of the single life. I’m getting kind of sick of it. Do NOT read into that that I’m looking to get married any time soon. I just mean after years and years of booty calls, ONS, friends with benefits, etc, etc, I’m ready for something different.
@Susan (489, 490)
Susan, have you ever read _Black Water_ by Joyce Carol Oates? It was nominated for the National Book Award and the Pulitzer. (She’s an awesome writer, but I can only take it in small doses. To me, she’s scarier than Lovecraft and way more psychologically violent than Stephen King. So weird that someone so talented expresses it in such a dark way.)
Anyway, it’s a transparent retelling of Chappaquiddick and the greater theme is how young women can naively trust older “alpha” men and get seriously burned, and the guy has a blemish but remains in power. That’s how he survived it.
@July 16th
This is of course very common! Binge drinking is highly correlated with casual sexual behaviors among college students. Most of the time both parties are intoxicated, and research shows that college students drink in order to lose enough inhibition to get naked with a stranger. That’s true for men and women. Take away drunkenness, and you’ll kill hookup culture immediately.
A documentary I watched on this explained that while most states have laws on the books making consent impossible if a party is incapacitated due to alcohol, we know that this happens every single weekend on campuses across America.
I don’t know, actually, but claims of sexual assault are increasing. Many of the claims involve college fraternity members.
@Sassy
Of course! You should always feel free to jump in when you are being discussed!
Unless they have. If somebody’s drunk, and you’re not, why have sex with them in the first place? As the more sober party you are risking jail time, and that goes for women who can take advantage of men in that situation too. I’ve known of a few cases.
You’d have sex with them for the same reasons you would have sex with them if they weren’t drunk. Normally both parties are drunk during drunken sex anyways and since drunk is such a nebulous term.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t carry a breathalyzer to a party.
As for law… Yes feminist snuck in “drunk” where force and intent once were, but most folks don’t think drunken sex = rape. And they think this for good reason.
@Zach
So a few years older than you…
I gather this is not the woman who you were recently seeing for a 6th date? Is she still on the scene, non-exclusively? Or is that done and you’re back to strictly casual?
@Susan again
Oops, sorry for the cutoff! To continue the depressingness:
“I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex.”
Yeah, this thread has pretty much scared the crap out of me! The idea that some guy is going to want to choke me, yank my hair (OUCH!), spank me and hit me is NOT especially reassuring!
I would rather go cat-lady-rogue than have some guy feel he is entitled to a porn star. It makes me think on two things:
1) It feels like sex is being turned into a performance, instead of the deepest and more intimate way you can connect with another person. And a performance is rehearsed, not authentic. To me, that is just incredibly sad: It’s like preferring a huge tacky cubic zirconia over a beautifully set diamond. Why would you want such a lame and showy substitute?
2) I feel like porn and junk food have similar affects on the body.
Ugh! Need to go outside and see nature! Less fake weird stuff!
@Susan
PS: Thanks for reading my request and deleting my comments. I am sorry I was mean to Evil Alpha.
Like Voltaire said, I disapprove of what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it!
One of my best friends from b-school became the first female Managing Director of Merrill Lynch in the late 80s – she was MD of Trading. Everyone – and I mean everyone – was f*cking. The married guys were screwing young traders in downtown movie theaters at lunchtime. People were getting rooms right and left.
Talk about dopamine chasing – this was high energy, high risk behavior both professionally and personally. Of course, it all came tumbling down and they returned to their sexless marriages with Westchester trophy wives and spoiled children.
Once I was in the office of a very senior financial executive for a monthly debriefing, and his daughter happened to be visiting that day for lunch. She had just turned 8. He asked her to tell us about her birthday presents. She thought for a minute, then recited this:
“Steuben Goldilocks and the Three Bears, and ancient Chinese masks.”
Tom Wolfe captured all of this perfectly in Bonfire of the Vanities.
I don’t know, actually, but claims of sexual assault are increasing. Many of the claims involve college fraternity members.
One of the key reasons sex assault is increasing is due to the widespread feminist myth that women are just men with vaginas, held back by culture.
The reality though is women are not as horny, nor as orgasmicly versatile as men.
@Jackie
I just got a shiver up my spine. I actually read it in the summer of 1992 while vacationing on Martha’s Vineyard. I will never forget the description of the Senator’s using her collarbone as leverage from which to launch his exit from the car.
I recall the Kennedy family was very upset and denounced the book publicly.
Joyce Carol Oates is an amazing and incredibly prolific writer. Nearly all of her writing is dark. I’m a fan, though I skip many of her novels – I just don’t want to go there.
@Zach
“Do NOT read into that that I’m looking to get married any time soon.”
====
Ha ha! Zach, did you worry that I would try to set you up with someone as a matchmaker?
I wonder, do you know who you are as a person, on your own?
It sounds like you are always going, always in pursuit of the next woman, the next sex, always going out, being very social. When all that is removed, what is left? The core of your essence, I mean.
It sounds to me– again, could be wrong– that you haven’t really ever gotten to see who you are, without all that. I wonder how much time you have spent in contemplation or meditation. I don’t mean religiously, or even atheistically. Just as a human being.
There is a sacred sweetness in being alone. Once the weirdness of not being “on” all the time wears off, it is really quite incredible. You can know and see people and situations in a much deeper, more fulfilling way, in my experience at least.
“The reality though is women are not as horny, nor as orgasmicly versatile as men.”
Orgasmicly versatile!!!!???? We are multi-orgasmic! Let’s see you beat that!
@Jackie
Continuing the Tom Wolfe theme, I’ve read that he is very interested in the rise of porn in American culture, and one of the main characters in his new novel is a psychiatrist who treats porn addiction.
Plain Jane alert.
@evilalpha
Why would that increase rape? Are you saying that men tell themselves that women need to be liberated sexually and take it upon themselves to perform that service, in some bizarre twisted justification provided by feminism?
What do you mean by “orgasmically versatile?” Can you compare the sexes’ versatility in this regard?
Plain Jane alert.
The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails. I find myself hoping that a new commenter will not be her.
“A documentary I watched on this explained that while most states have laws on the books making consent impossible if a party is incapacitated due to alcohol, we know that this happens every single weekend on campuses across America.”
If someone is incapacitated then they cannot participate, much less consent to sex. How could incapacitated sex happen every weekend? Tipsy sex I can understand, but incapacitated?
multi-orgasmic, hmm amidst my insomnia (you lot don’t help), this reminds me of one of the best lines that I wish I’d made (at the time I just smiled, I thought of this later)
I was out with a lady friend (friend) when we bumped into a colleague of her’s that was an extremely large aggressive lesbian. She radiated hate at me and I hadn’t done anything beyond being a penis-owner who she probably suspected of sleeping with our mutual (straight) friend (who she found attractive). She went straight into ‘male’ aggressive competition mode (one which most guys don’t actually do). I was highly amused as either our friend was gay, or not, so the attempt at competition was unnecessary bullshit brought on by her idea of masculinity.
Anyway, the story:
took me two days to think up that line. damn, it would have been perfect; she’d have had to laugh, or explode…
@Susan
No, that 6th date girl is actually not still on the scene. I couldnt believe it, but she (a girl) was more interested in booty calls than dating. She booty called me twice when i was out of town. Not that i would have turned her down otherwise, but we didnt see each other the week after that and it kind of fizzled out. I had also dialed back the alpha a tiny bit to show her i could be dated, and that actually ruined it. She started shit testing me up the ass, and while i didnt fail on those i think just the dial back did me in. Meanwhile, i got 4 numbers last night (3 of whose names i actually know!) so we’ll see how those go.
@Jackie
Not sure how to respond. I dont do spiritual (im an atheist), and your post kind of reeked of new age/hippie to me. I have tons of interests outside of the next girl, but this site isnt about those interests. Would respond further but on my ipad and its not great for typing.
The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails. I find myself hoping that a new commenter will not be her.
Is a trick she starts like that as a cover and then goes back to her inane stupid babbling that no one cares about. Really if I was studying psychology I would use her as study case. She must have more issues than Spiderman.
@Susan (503)
Interesting! I will definitely keep an eye out for the new book.
I don’t expect anyone to agree with me on this: Porn seems to me like a cross between Schehrezade, being able to weave 1001 stories and fantasies of the Arabian Nights, and the Goethe fairy tale, The Sorcerer’s Apprentice.
(If you’ve seen Fantasia, this is the story where Mickey Mouse is the apprentice — he enchants a broom to do his work for him. Since he’s not yet trained, the brooms keep splitting and multiplying and multiplying, turning into a nightmare.)
Both of the stories have happy endings, but I feel like porn is kind of the dark side of this, with a rather dark conclusion, like a Faustian bargain. There it is: Any fantasy you want, projected on a screen before you. Any time you want it. As much as you want it. But none of it’s real and you’re still alone.
Because it’s not really happening to you and it tricks your brain into thinking it is. And the people who want to be on film will basically subject themselves to anything (don’t want to know what– this makes me too sad as it is) to be a “star,” a porn star.
It’s like the equivalent of thinking you will somehow be able to fall in love from watching a romcom. And even the best of them are entertaining, but no substitute for human affection. The rules of romcoms don’t exist in reality; real life is so much more complicated.
Anyway, at the end, you’re only more isolated and that much further away from a connection with another human being. Maybe some people feel like that’s a safer alternative to having to risk living in reality.
A couple of questions:
1) would “that’s inhuman! no man would put a woman through an ordeal like that” be better? (five years and two days later FML)
2) 8-9 orgasms on the trot…sounds like harsh treatment…would it be enjoyable ladies? surely you’d be emotionaly wrung out like a dish-rag afterwards(?)
any takers?
Jackie I’m with you on the walk in nature need after learning about this stuff. My fantasies all take place in nature and all that BDSM stuff is in doors and requires plastic, steel, manufactured items. I’m more the skinny dipping and making love under a full moon as water flows on top of you from above type. Not an uncommon occurrence on the island of Maui.
Just1X, sorry but I don’t get that comeback. Don’t know if I’m just slow on the uptake or its “British humor” or what.
@Zach
“Not sure how to respond. I dont do spiritual (im an atheist), and your post kind of reeked of new age/hippie to me.”
=====
Hahaha! New age/hippie! Just for the record, I am a committed religious person who wears retro clothes (as in, real corsetry, stockings and high heels) almost every day.
I appreciate the image of me as an unwashed, barefoot, tree-hugging, patchouli-stinking, crystal-wearing, peace-signing hippie chick, though! Haha!
No need to respond if it doesn’t resonate with you. I have found that taking time between relationships for contemplation has really helped me, obviously YMMV.
Thanks for responding and GL with the iPad!
@J16 #514 *sigh* story of my life
I was turning her boast of sexual prowess into a cruel thing to do to a woman *crickets* *lonely bell tolling in the distance* *tumbleweeds blown across the set*
Like your handle, the anniversary of the first atom bomb test in Alamogordo. or maybe just your birthday, I guess
@Jackie
my eyes have just gone boggly, that’s the second day in a row that you’ve surprised the hell out of me (in a good way)
But you did felt the need to tell her that there was nothing wrong with being unemotional, and that with the right man she will be…Why?
Because being independent or reserved is often an innate, not particulary malleable trait. And there may not be anything wrong with it, in and of itself. It’s a normal variation in the continuum of human personality traits. The conflict Sassy may have between the desire to control and the desire to be controlled is a resolvable problem which I urged her to explore.
Took a person to the ER one evening, and as I was sitting there talking to the person during the treatment, I got to talking to the nurse. She was really attractive, really competent. Impressive. She’d chosen her nursing school because of the rep its grads had accumulated. It also fit her personality, a restrictive Christian school where dating meant a bunch of guys and a bunch of girls–different schools–got together for supervised mixers. She thought that was great. Among other things–she didn’t say this directly–there was more time for studying. They had a couple of top-rated athletic teams in their division, which wasn’t a very high division, and she was on one of them. Had a great time, married a guy from the other school, has two kids and seemed extraordinarily happy and together.
Hard to say what went through her mind and those of her schoolmates at two in the morning when sleep wouldn’t come. But concerns of infections and pregnancy weren’t among them.
Now, I suspect you could make a pretty hot novel about two virgins getting an instruction manual and trying everything within the complete trust of a loving marriage and no–due to having a loving marriage–inhibitions. Might take a sense of humor, though.
Different strokes, as we said back toward the middle of the last century.
Beast sex can be dangerous. Consenting partners have the right to engage, but as far as offering guidance and advice for it, I’ve got nothing.
I’ll cosign. I understand that some people are into this, but I really don’t get it. There is a “happily married man” in the ‘sphere who often comments regarding his wife’s desire to be spanked during ovulation and her once asking him before their marriage to take her someplace and rough her up. I simply can’t imagine wanting that (It would hurt!) or having a husband who’d want to provide that. My DH would have run for the hills had I requested that.
Because being independent or reserved is often an innate, not particulary malleable trait. And there may not be anything wrong with it, in and of itself.
Sassy’s comment was:
…but I’ve had 4 different men tell me that I’m “not emotional enough”. They have all said the exact same thing. I’m not naive enough to assume that the problem is with the guys either. If 4 different men all say the same thing, the problem is with me.
The question is how can I foster a more emotionally expressive personality?…
So your assessment of her issue is different than what she expressed and it was only when the “violence” in the sex was raised that you joined the “you might need therapy” crowd. What made you think that she might be not have emotional issues (lack of demonstrating emotion according to you shouldn’t be explored and tried to deal with) but sexual “tastes” can and should be changed? I think you mentioned that you were a therapist I’m just trying to find out why the double standard between emotions and sexuality, which I find really odd. If you cannot change your personality what makes you think you can change what makes you get off. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Just1X
J1, if you have anything like MeetUp.com, you will see our numbers are legion!
At least once a month they have social stuff that revolves specifically around British TV trivia challenges and retro-required events. The British stuff is ALWAYS packed– with your knowledge and quick wit (as opposed to “shining wit” haha!) you would certainly dominate the scene!
(BTW, 7-16 is totally trolling you. Your joke is awesome and will age to perfection like wine. Just be ready for your next chance!)
They have retro stuff every month– this month is a dance at an airport hangar to a real big band. Everybody goes, from the teenagers to the folks in their 70s. It’s only like $10 and the 70-yr-olds beat the snot of the whippersnappers on the dance floor.
If they have that stuff in your area, you will basically rule the scene.
I don’t believe that drunk women who have sex have been raped, but there is an increasing amount of date rape, false accusations notwithstanding.
How drunk? Passed out? That’s rape. Got herself drunk with the specific idea of getting laid? Not rape. It’s the stuff in between that gets sticky.
Susan…dopamine on Wall Street….I think you’d be interested in “The Hour Between Dog and Wolf,” by John Coates. The author is a trader turned neuroscience researcher, and his interest is in the embodiment of mind: specifically the effect of changing hormone levels of trading/investing performance.
Susan, my N is not particularly high, but, I have never known a girl to NOT desire having her hair pulled and ass spanked….I don’t mean that she was open to it, but that she actively wanted it.
Color me astounded.
Sassy’s comment was:
…but I’ve had 4 different men tell me that I’m “not emotional enough”. They have all said the exact same thing. I’m not naive enough to assume that the problem is with the guys either. If 4 different men all say the same thing, the problem is with me.
The question is how can I foster a more emotionally expressive personality?…
So your assessment of her issue is different than what she expressed
I skimmed past that comment apparently. My bad. That changes everything. She’s right and so are you. If four men have told her this, it’s time to start listening.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that is a direct result of the availability of porn and males upping the ante during sex.
No. I am simply telling you, no.
I am sure that porn has opened people’s minds as to what might be socially acceptable, or maybe “attemptable”, but, I am positive that these girls were not reacting to porn, or the guys male fantasies.
I will give you a small, non-sexual example: one girl, who was very sweet, and very intelligent, and had no interest in being ordered around (or push anyone around herself) would want me to order her around when she was tipsy (she was no lush).
She wanted me to tell her to make me a sandwich and get me a beer.
She wanted to feel male dominance from a man that genuinely loved her, showed affection to her and took care of her when she was down, sick or scared.
She felt very comfortable with me. And when we dimmed the lights and went to bed (or wherever) she wanted to feed some base, primal desires. Basically, she got to experience the “rape fantasy” with someone that she knew, with complete confidence, loved her and would never hurt her.
She was a sweet girl.
That is just one example.
I have dated sluttier girls that were more forward about feeling male dominance.
However, if it makes you feel any better, I don’t believe that she ever wanted me to punch her in the face, or cut her, or anything like that.
Color me astounded.
Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe Susan is right that somehow it is porn based although I think some other dynamics are at play as well, but seems to me there is quite a difference between what middle-aged women like yourself and Susan enjoy versus younger women in the 20-30+ range.
With respect to the hair pulling, the first time I did it, the woman actually directed me specifically what to do and how to do it as I didn’t have it quite right. It isn’t pulling from the ends, but more grabbing a clump with the palm (at the back of the head especially from a DS position) and just some moderate pressure. I can tell you hardly a day goes by without me smacking my fiancee on the ass, and she loves it. Again, I’m not trying to actually inflict any pain so it is probably 5-10% of the max force I could actually generate.
I had also dialed back the alpha a tiny bit to show her i could be dated, and that actually ruined it. She started shit testing me up the ass, and while i didnt fail on those i think just the dial back did me in. Meanwhile, i got 4 numbers last night (3 of whose names i actually know!) so we’ll see how those go.
Susan, I wanted to especially note this comment from Zach in case it slips by you. I understand your emphasis on data, surveys, etc., but I think there is some value in continuing to pay attention to the things REAL guys report out in the real world/field that they encounter from women that they try to escalate romantic interaction with. Maybe this girl was just really high on the craving dominance/hypergamy spectrum, but my sources continue to tell me this sort of thing is more common than not.
Messed up last paragraph…that was my response to quoting Zach
Ramble at 527…I’ve had similar experiences. I think one thing could be that many women feel more free to shed any inhibitions and don’t have as many boundaries over what is “acceptable” sexual activity if they are with someone they trust and activities X, Y, and Z really do in fact turn them on/get them off. I’m skeptical of the notion that it is all a performance trying to please men. If that is the case, then I’ve been witness to some damn good acting.
@J, #520
“There is a “happily married man” in the ‘sphere who often comments regarding his wife’s desire to be spanked during ovulation and her once asking him before their marriage to take her someplace and rough her up. I simply can’t imagine wanting that (It would hurt!) or having a husband who’d want to provide that.”
Sounds like she should join a fight club, or maybe release her aggressions on a raw hide chew toy or something.
I skimmed past that comment apparently. My bad. That changes everything. She’s right and so are you. If four men have told her this, it’s time to start listening.
Oh okay I was just confused by the whole thing. Thanks for “enduring” my questionnaire I know I can be annoying, also we had this conversation with Sassy before so there is some precedent that you were not aware.
@Ramble
I side with you on the “some level of aggressiveness is desirable to women” my older married or sexually active friends were very open about how good it was when their hubby’s got rough with them and waking up with “muscular” pain and remembering how they got there was part of the experience and this were women that barely used computers some of them are even on the country side, some of them deeply religious monogamous married a virgin with only their husbands as sexual partners, so it was not something they particularly learned from the media. Also vintage romance novels have a lot of this “a bit rough please” moments.
Our species didn’t evolved on a field of flowers or the Garden of Eden but in a harsh environment full of diseases, beasts and lack of food, and it took us centuries to master. I’m pretty sure any homo sapiens needing “soft music and candles and light thrusting with enough time to make them feel comfortable and safe” to get off, died without a lot of kids, again I agree this is an spectrum of course but evolution has never been gentle and I get the feeling that never will be,YMMV.
I think you mentioned that you were a therapist
Not exactly a therapist (though anyone can call themselves one–there’s no legal definition), but I was a degreed professional who worked in a mental hospital with adolescence as part of the treatment team.
If you cannot change your personality what makes you think you can change what makes you get off. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Therapy (and I’m assuming you mean talk therapy) doesn’t really change core personality (part of which is probably genetically determined) as much as it (hopefully) helps people to work out issues or live with difficult parts of their personalities. Working out an issue, for example, the desire to be controlled by another as opposed to exercising self-control, could potentially change what gets someone off. That’s within reason, of course. Therapy has a good track record of helping people get out of abusive relationships, but not of helping gay people become straight. That appears to be biological at this point.
Color me judgmental, but a lot of the women being described in these posts (e.g., #467, 527, 528) sound like victims of internalized childhood sexual assault.
@Anacaona
“I’m pretty sure any homo sapiens needing “soft music and candles and light thrusting with enough time to make them feel comfortable and safe” to get off, died without a lot of kids, again I agree this is an spectrum of course but evolution has never been gentle and I get the feeling that never will be…”
Hence my description of the rough end of the spectrum as “beast sex.” Non-human animals appear to do a lot of pinning the female down and humping.
Not all non-combative sex is all about candles and soft music, though. More “peaceful” or “empathetic” sex often involves spontaneity, sweat, lots of energy, etc. It’s more like merrily jumping on a trampoline together rather than wrestling and slapping. In the non-human animal kingdom, Bonobos engage in sex as a sign of affection.
IMO, if there is zero smiling and no “shavasana” type release involved, the sex wasn’t good.
Color me judgmental, but a lot of the women being described in these posts (e.g., #467, 527, 528) sound like victims of internalized childhood sexual assault.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it nonsense to automatically assume that a woman that likes a more aggressive sexual encounter is automatically the victim of childhood sexual assault. The devil really is in the details as I think there is a very real difference between some playful aggressive intensity and abuse. There is a world of difference between a smack on the ass and a punch to the face. I think Ana knows exactly what I am talking about.
FWIW, I am a Star Trek geek and religiously watched Next Generation. In it you had the race of Klingons. One of the things I liked about the show is how different species were used to portray different human philosophies and views. The Vulcans were about logic and rationality while the Klingons were a warrior race built on male competition, aggression, and hierarchy. Anyways, there were a few episodes that showed sexual relations between Klingon males and females and it had a very aggressive intensity but it was clear the intent was not for the male to abuse the female. If there is one thing I’ve really taken away from all these conversations is that women really do vary significantly in terms of preferences, attraction triggers, male physicality (such as muscles versus skinny emos). Its really hard to nail down a universal female preference. I think this particular blog and the most active female commenters all tend to belong to the same category, not very hypergamous, not craving much dominance, not really girly girls, highly rational and logical. That doesn’t mean that women outside that category are automatically dsyfunctional in some way.
but seems to me there is quite a difference between what middle-aged women like yourself and Susan enjoy versus younger women in the 20-30+ range.
I guess so. I just don’t get the pain and pleasure connection.
I can tell you hardly a day goes by without me smacking my fiancee on the ass, and she loves it.
I think there’s a big difference between playing around like that and a slap in the face. Every woman who has an ass has had it smacked playfully. The ass smack sort of says, “I can’t keep my hands off that ass” and generally doesn’t hurt. A slap in the face is painful and humiliating. I wouldn’t slap my kids in the face much less another adult.
Not exactly a therapist (though anyone can call themselves one–there’s no legal definition), but I was a degreed professional who worked in a mental hospital with adolescence as part of the treatment team.
Oh didn’t knew that I guess that is why some people say “license therapists” to make sure they know is a real professional. Interesting indeed.
Therapy (and I’m assuming you mean talk therapy) doesn’t really change core personality (part of which is probably genetically determined) as much as it (hopefully) helps people to work out issues or live with difficult parts of their personalities. Working out an issue, for example, the desire to be controlled by another as opposed to exercising self-control, could potentially change what gets someone off. That’s within reason, of course. Therapy has a good track record of helping people get out of abusive relationships, but not of helping gay people become straight. That appears to be biological at this point.
That is what I meant that therapy is an aid not the panacea of all issues and that some people will just find out about themselves better and learn to cope with it no change themselves, hence my confusion.
I guess so. I just don’t get the pain and pleasure connection.
Not everything is logically explainable. I’ll tell you I really like having nails scratched across my back to the point where there is just a tad bit of mild pain. I’ve had situations where my back looked like quite the mess.
I think there’s a big difference between playing around like that and a slap in the face. Every woman who has an ass has had it smacked playfully. The ass smack sort of says, “I can’t keep my hands off that ass” and generally doesn’t hurt. A slap in the face is painful and humiliating. I wouldn’t slap my kids in the face much less another adult.
Yeah, I agree, which is why I personally find the face thing problematic.
The worst thing is that sometimes Plain Jane has some very intelligent comments, before she goes off the rails
Indeed.
@Ana
Not a problem. Had I read more carefully, I would have responded differently.
Hence my description of the rough end of the spectrum as “beast sex.” Non-human animals appear to do a lot of pinning the female down and humping.
Well since we have a reptilian brain that is very much involved on our choices I wouldn’t say this part of us doesn’t get to play rough too.
I think Ana knows exactly what I am talking about.
Yeah but I think in this culture any level of aggressiveness is tied up to rape even if is consensual the whole “when in doubt blame it on rape” seems to be very pervasive. Again I agree that there are boundaries like doing stuff that can alert the police/relatives or end your life that should be contained or at least supervised by a third party with first aid skills but from there to get off on some slapping, hair pulling and rough sex…. I don’t think is the same, YMMV.
@Mike C
“Anyways, there were a few episodes that showed sexual relations between Klingon males and females and it had a very aggressive intensity…”
LOL, I vaguely remember an episode where there was a female from a race that was known for being able to seduce any male of any race. When she walked past Worf, she growled under her breath and he straightened up immediately and growled back. The aggressive sexual nature of the Klingons was a running theme.
@Anacaona
It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…
LOL, I vaguely remember an episode where there was a female from a race that was known for being able to seduce any male of any race. When she walked past Worf, she growled under her breath and he straightened up immediately and growled back.
That episode was called the perfect mate and Kamala was played by Famke Janssen who played Jean Grey in the X-Men movies alongside with Picard/Xavier/ Patrick Stewart. It was a cool reunion for us fan of both.
*nerdhatoff*
@Jackie
I think that you’ve got an awesome article there – porn as Scheherazade and Fantasia. I’m not kidding – I would write it up and submit it to HuffPo or Salon.
It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…
I see the opposite she mimics some smart thoughts and the ranting is her true self. I consider her smart comments her “Trojan horse” Look I’m not the idiot I’m smart” as soon as people start to engage her she goes back to derailtown. I might be wrong though but at this point I don’t expect it to last.
@Just1X
Personally, 8 or 9 orgasms in one session sounds painful. Literally. Even though women are good to go again fairly quickly after an orgasm, there is a hypersensitivity period where contact is painful. I can’t speak for other women, but an orgasm or two is just perfect. There’s a certain numbness or insensitivity that happens after a certain point.
Haha, was it the corsetry?
@RAmble
Your description doesn’t surprise me, I have felt all those things myself. Including the pretend rape – very arousing. That is different than getting off on being hit.
Susan,
I wanted to notate that we now have two examples of guys (Zach and Jason) who most likely present as strong alpha frames with some player vibe who when they tried to dial it down and do the more proper courting/dating/relationship thing with a girl apparently lost that girl’s interest/attraction. Just two anecdotes, but interesting nonetheless.
@Mike C
It didn’t slip by me, and it doesn’t surprise me. Zach is clearly fishing in the 20% pond. He’s going out 3 or 4 nights a week, meeting girls in bars, disqualifying girls who like to “stay in.” He’s in ultra hypergamous territory. Nothing wrong with that, but he’s going after STR girls with an LTR mindset. It may take a while.
Yeah but I think in this culture any level of aggressiveness is tied up to rape even if is consensual
I don’t think the objection is necessarily that rough sex equates to rape as much as it does to pain, domination and humiliation. In a way, when people actually label these sort of interchanges as BDSM, it sort of isolates it as kink and people say, “Whatever, it’s not my business.” There’s something about it being considered mainstream that’s disturbing.
@Mike C
I don’t think this is necessarily the case. It is entirely possible that porn has opened up women’s minds to new behaviors. The other thing to remember is that women are turned on by male arousal. Being desired is the most powerful aphrodisiac for a female. So pleasing men becomes physically pleasing. That’s how we’re wired.
I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.
@ RWC:
+1000
As I mentioned upthread, passion isn’t limited to just kinky/”beastial” sex
I think it may have been the incongruence (presenting as alpha and then suddenly going to beta) that may have done them in.
@Susan (545)
+
Hopefully I have redeemed myself from earlier today!
I would *love* to write something! You could call it “Porn: The Dark Side of Fantasia” or “Scheherezade’s Dark Twin”– something emphasizing the duality and dark side of the fairy tales.
If I could figure out a way to make it work! Both S & TSA end up being bailed out (or bailing themselves out) with total HEA *Happily Ever Afters.
Or somehow working in Plato’s Cave, which is a pretty awesome metaphor for movies and being unmoored from the reality outisde. Or the Greek sirens as our modern day porn stars– mirages that only lead men to destruction.
Isn’t Salon totally ‘Pozzie, though? Tracey Clark-Fiory writes about being into porn since she was 12.
They think non-pozzie are weirdos and stupid. It kinda makes me want to write the article, just to show them!
Agreed. There is a world of difference between a playful slap on the ass and slapping someone’s face. The latter is never playful, or perhaps it might be “danger play.”
@ J
I’m in the younger range and I don’t get it either. But different strokes for different folks. However, I do think the rise of porn has a lot to do with certain acts & proclivities becoming more common.
Every man I’ve known likes female fingernails scratched across his back. Any woman who fails to do that is ignoring a key tactic in the tool kit…
Yeah, you’re better off with HuffPo. TCF is an interesting case – casual sex has never worked for her, but sadly, she keeps promoting it.
“I also wonder whether, in an era of a deficit of male dominance, women are hungry for it.”
====
This is going to be a weird comparison:
When I adopted my cat, she was starving and the vet said she had been so deprived she had “food anxiety.” It was like, she was starved at SO many levels, she would gorge herself in an unhealthy way. Totally overcompensating kitty.
I wonder if, at some level, there is a leadership (“dominant”) deprivation going on. That girls are so deprived of a man leading with confidence, that they’ve swung over to some overcompensatory behaviors, that looks almost like a parody from outside?
PS: After almost a year of having enough food, the sweet cat is way less crazy and anxious. Still is kind of a hog, but not nearly as neurotic, I think.
@ SayWhaat:
Good point.
FWIW, I think it’s a mixture of this and what Susan noted in #551:
I don’t think the objection is necessarily that rough sex equates to rape as much as it does to pain, domination and humiliation.
Well to use an example I read Twilight in Spanish and joined the Spanish fandom (after all books were published) this included Spain and some of my friends from Italy, France, Chile, Venezuela, Brazil…and this were both old and young women. When the “honeymoon and bruises came in” we were all like “Oh might that was my kind of honeymoon, good job Edward about time you let go just a bit!”. Then when I read how it was taken on USA well the claims that “Bella was raped till she passed out” were pretty much everywhere.
I actually got the English version to see if they changed it in translation…nope same scene. I had to copy paste it for my hubby because he was shocked that I was not horrified by this. Is a small example but I have had similar issues like in Superman Returns the fact that Lois doesn’t remember that she and Supes had sex is being called rape more than once, and then there is the Schrödinger’s Rapist article: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/… so yeah I do think here is “a man is a rapist till proven otherwise” again my perception as coming from another culture it could be wrong but that is how it seems to work here, YMMV.
Re: PJ
“It’s so unfortunate – she is obviously perceptive and smart. So why retreat to nonsensical babbling? I can’t even begin to guess at the psychology there…
I see the opposite she mimics some smart thoughts and the ranting is her true self. I consider her smart comments her “Trojan horse”
========
I was thinking we could write a formula for fishing her out:
*always uses two parts to a name
*likes to play the Puritan, looks down on those who are not
*makes reference to exotic places
*requests over-explanatory replies
I think that part of her is very conflicted about what we are talking about on HUS. She’s obviously drawn here, and starts with asking questions that are actually interesting.
It reminds me of someone who is torn between wanting to believe feminist theory and someone who wants to believe what their own eyes are telling them. The conflict within is not resolved. So she plays both sides against each the other to mirror the conflict within her own self.
Oh didn’t knew that I guess that is why some people say “license therapists” to make sure they know is a real professional. Interesting indeed.
Exactly. Should you ever need a therapist of any sort, be sure to check credentials. Does your “massage therapist” have a degree in physiology or just a white coat? There are loads of charlatans calling themselves therapists. A person with a PhD in basketweaving can potentially call themselves Dr. and work as a therapist in a field where they have no credentials as long as they don’t pretend to have license.
Exactly. Should you ever need a therapist of any sort, be sure to check credentials.
Heh I have a tendency to paranoia so I’m very through about this, it takes many visits before accepting anyone touching me whether mind, body or soul. But is good to remind in general terms for the kids on the audience.
I can’t speak to the fandom perception of rape in books and movies, but I think that, for many of us, a slap in the face is so appalling that we aren’t thinking much past it.
I wonder if, at some level, there is a leadership (“dominant”) deprivation going on. That girls are so deprived of a man leading with confidence, that they’ve swung over to some overcompensatory behaviors, that looks almost like a parody from outside?
Possible. Also possible: People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.
“my eyes have just gone boggly, that’s the second day in a row that you’ve surprised the hell out of me (in a good way)
Haha, was it the corsetry?”
=====
Hahaha! That reminds me of a guy I went to school with, who was a film score composer — there was a group of us girls who were doing a renaissance project together, and he would constantly implore us to become a “corset consort,” as if that would give us some kind of edge!
Those real ones were SO LITTLE– they made your waist about 18 inches and also squished your internal organs to death. Eeep!
This is the only reason to get that crazy:
http://collections.mcny.org/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MNYO28_4
@Anacaona
“That episode was called the perfect mate and Kamala was played by Famke Janssen who played Jean Grey in the X-Men movies alongside with Picard/Xavier/ Patrick Stewart. It was a cool reunion for us fan of both.”
You are awesome!
@J
“Possible. Also possible: People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.”
=====
Those are the same people who I’ve seen tear up just by getting a simple hug or someone holding their hand.
In some ways, softness and gentleness can be the most powerful of all.
People are just so damn jaded that anything short of extreme doesn’t penetrate the numbness.
THIS so much. I often think that a couple of months on the third world with no AC, cars, electricity, or security of any sorts will cure 90% of the “I’m bored” epidemic. When I read the premise of the new show Revolution “No electricity will turn America into savage land?!” I was like ” No electricity was our reading, singing with the family/playing bingo time!” that show is so no going to be popular overseas.
You are awesome!
Aww thank you *kissonthecheek*
Susan,
I’m wondering what kind of push-back you get from feminists for posts like this. I can’t imagine that a single sentence in the original post is something they’d agree with. Virtually everything you wrote must be disagreeable.
A bizarre OT question:
I was watching Tosh.O with my sons (I know what a bad mom!), and there was a clip of amputee porn. Is that stuff for real?
@Ana and Jackie
People have too much of the wrong stuff and not enough of the right stuff in 21st century America.
@Ana 504
I didn’t want to be the one to say it, so thanks!
I didn’t want to be the one to say it, so thanks!
Why not? We should totally play the “spot the Plain Jane” game for the HUSies (we might as well have fun if we are stuck with her for the moment). Like whoever calls it first gets some sort of internet applause from the other HUSies.
@Ana
“Bella was raped till she passed out”
HAHAHAHA! That’s so absurd . . . You know, I always assumed it was because Edward’s flesh isn’t resilient/pliant (or whatever the term is) like human flesh, but is actually like stone. (Or have I misread something? Is he just cold like stone?)
When I read the premise of the new show Revolution “No electricity will turn America into savage land?!” I was like ” No electricity was our reading, singing with the family/playing bingo time!” that show is so no going to be popular overseas.
About ten years ago, I read a novel with a similar premise, inspired by the Y2K scare. There was a family that suspected all electronics were going to fail, so they sold their house and business in the suburbs and moved to a remote farm. Because, as you pointed out, the loss of electricity means the loss of civilization.
But even there, they were not safe, and one year later, a roving gang attacked them. Oh, well . . .
@Ana
Why not? We should totally play the “spot the Plain Jane” game for the HUSies
Hahahaha! It’s just that I don’t comment here as often as I used to, and I feel it would be a bit rude to burst in after a long absence, screaming, “IT’S THE TROLL!!!”
HAHAHAHA! That’s so absurd . . . You know, I always assumed it was because Edward’s flesh isn’t resilient/pliant (or whatever the term is) like human flesh, but is actually like stone. (Or have I misread something? Is he just cold like stone?)
It has to be a metaphor for how strong and cold they are as to how still they could get if they were literal statues it would be really stupid that no one would had noticed the the lack of humanity on the Cullens. Bella’s is pale as an albino is not surprising that she bruises easily. Heck I’m not white myself and I find myself bruised all the freaking time, even before I got married and really Edward spent so much time scared of “hurting” her that if she would have had sex and nothing would had happened I would had rolled my eyes from here to Brazil, way to show how stupid his whole denial would had been.
*Twihardhatoff*
Because, as you pointed out, the loss of electricity means the loss of civilization.
Yeah hubby pointed out that Katrina survivors were not going to buy this premise either. I think the longest we had been without electricity straight was a whole month after the hurricane George hit us and the first days were a bit hard but then going back to hand washing, cooking with charcoal, telling each other stories for entertainment, using candles during nighttime…Yeah the premise doesn’t fly when you have actually lived on it.
Hahahaha! It’s just that I don’t comment here as often as I used to, and I feel it would be a bit rude to burst in after a long absence, screaming, “IT’S THE TROLL!!!”
Heh I’m sure no one will mind. I love how you call her THE troll, yeah we should adopt her as official HUS pet like Slimer was on the The Real Ghostbusters was: Annoying and disgusting but always around.
@Hope
“Another thing to do is observe animal companions. If he’s a cat person, imitate a kitty. If he’s a dog person, imitate a puppy. For example, she nuzzles into your chest and purrs like a kitten, and gracefully touches your face with her cupped hands. She sits on your lap like a lap kitty and asks to be petted. Or she pounces on you with an energetic hug and kiss, and playfully gives you a lick on the cheek. It’s totally silly but adorable. If a guy doesn’t get his heart melted by animals, something is wrong!”
I’m not trying to mean, at all, but this does seem pretty random and a bit weird to me. Sorry! The idea of trying to win a man’s heart by imitating his favorite ANIMAL just . . . rubs me the wrong way, I’m afraid.
I love what you said here, though–and I’d love a post (sorry, Susan! More requests
) on “developing your own style of femininity.”
“Sassy, another thought I have is that you can find your own style of femininity. For example, you can really ooze warm, sultry femininity. You don’t have to do “cutesy” if that’s not your thing. You can do passionate, sensual, fiery and loyal, more like a tigress or lioness than a kitten. I think alpha males (the lion type) would be more attracted to that sort of display, too.”
There are definitely different feminine (and masculine, but let’s talk feminine) archetypes out there and while I am a believer in ‘being yourself’ I think it’s cool to get, like, some inspiration on your “girl game” sometimes from some of these archetypes.
Cutesy is a type that has definite appeal to certain guys, but also does NOT appeal to others. It’s not my personality to be very ‘cutesy’ but at 5 feet tall and about 95 lb, all I really have to do is wear something feminine and twirl my hair or whatever and BAM, “cutesy.”
TBH though, I much prefer a sort of sensual, centered, wise, deep, dignified and what I’d call “womanly” vibe and that is what I’m working on developing as I head into my late 20s. Like Sassy, I think, I react logically and not emotionally to the world and this is pretty unusual for women and does decrease our sense of ‘femininity’ to lots of men. It’s important for logical women to learn to be comfortable expressing emotion at least sometimes. That doesn’t mean we have to turn into drama queens, but it is a learned skill, and I think we need to learn to express our femininity in ways that are congruent with our natural personalities.
In terms of inspiration, I love a lot of old movie stars and have been watching a lot of Elizabeth Taylor interviews and movies lately because her brand of femininity is so amazing and iconic IMO. I can’t pull off that ‘type’ but I find her inspirational and more imitable than someone like Marilyn Monroe, who certain women can emulate beautifully but I never could and honestly don’t want the kind of men it attracts, though I also don’t resent that type of femininity, it’s gorgeous but just not for me.
In our times, while I’m not a big celebrity watcher there’s a few women who appear centered and lovely and comfortable with their femininity in ways I respect–Kate Middleton, Michelle Obama, Angelina Jolie, Natalie Portman and a few other young classy actresses. I know Angelina Jolie is a sort of polarizing figure for a lot of people but if you study her as a woman I think she’s fascinating. She has the sensual sex goddess thing going on, but as she’s had her family and been with Brad she’s also developed this really cool kind of femininity, this sort of a deep womanly dignity, that I wish more women would strive to emulate. Watch some interviews of her in her early 20s and then watch ones of her now–it’s a total transformation and it’s not just about getting older, IMO. I don’t know if she’s exactly “taken the red pill” but she’s said a lot of things that suggest she’s done her research on femininity, men and relationships. There’s an interview of her after she adopted Maddox where she said: “he’s made me a woman… He makes me feel warm and soft and open as a woman should be.” It’s so post-feminist and always stuck with me, and while I wouldn’t want to imitate her too closely, she carries herself in a way I find really cool now.
@Susan
“Agreed. There is a world of difference between a playful slap on the ass and slapping someone’s face. The latter is never playful, or perhaps it might be “danger play.”
I think a lot of women long for a kind of passion and intensity that comes more from having sex with someone you’re in love with than with a stranger. I get that hookups can be an adrenaline rush, but without some emotion present you’re just left with the mechanics of sex. Love and sex are separate yet overlap in the brain, remember. You can have pleasurable sex without your “in love” part of the brain fired up…but that part of the brain seems to fire an especially intense craving for another person and I think a lot of young women are missing that emotional experience with their partners.
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/1215666–love-and-sex-get-together-in-your-brain-map-shows-where-to-find-them
I think the increasing penchant for violence in sex may have as much to do with trying to make up for this emotional deficit as it does with the lack of
dominance in men.
There are so many interesting comments here…
@Richard Aubrey
I’m glad the USSR didn’t get us… And I agree about the no infections/pregnancy comment. One of the people I really liked in high school (platonically) told me “abstinence is the best condom.”
I salute you for your service to our country!
@all my Trekkies
YAY~
Actually I still have a lot of episodes to catch up on, but I think there was an episode where Worf mentioned having to turn away female human pursuers because he didn’t want to cause them injury.
Also, Ghostbusters reference is awesome.
@Jackie
“Ma, Ma, where’s my pa?
Gone to the White House -HA, HA, HA!”
Somebody else remembers seeing that! I’m so happy! I don’t know why I’d be happy about THAT, but I am. XD
(You are welcome to order me to STFU if this question comes out wrong… but where did you get your corset/s? I have been curious about wearing one, but it couldn’t just be something decorative, it would have to provide, er, really good support. Is there a site you recommend? Shutting up now)
And concerning the “hardcore” thing: I don’t know about all of it, but my best guess is that there’s so much information on the Web that some people might just be curious about trying some of what they’ve read about and/or seen. (Remember, folks: keep things safe, sane and consensual.)
Also, what school had an entire event devoted to something like that? I can understand if it was sponsored and had at a nearby shop, but that just seems out of place in an institute of higher learning.
@Susan Walsh
Why would that increase rape? Are you saying that men tell themselves that women need to be liberated sexually and take it upon themselves to perform that service, in some bizarre twisted justification provided by feminism?
That’s not what I meant. Let me explain.
The feminist androgyny myth promotes mass sexual mis-communication and mis-interpretation between men and women. Why? Because when men internalize women as” men with vaginas ” those same men will subsequently project male motives and actions onto the motives and actions of women, exactly at the time when it is most absurd and dangerous to do so…during the sexual negotiation phase.
What happens is this. Through the prism of androgyny “polite” becomes sexual interest. “Flirting” equals DTF. “Going out” is just carb loading for later fucking. “Making out” is just preparation for intercourse. And “intercourse” = fuck buddy because that’s what those thing mean when college guys do them.
In contrast, when a man has a realistic view of women’s sexuality and gender difference he is more inclined to interpret female actions through the feminine. Which ultimately means “still” is fear/freezing, not a symptom of drunkenness. And a ballistic “No” is not needed to signal displeasure as is the case among men.
So yes the gender lie is extremely harmful, but feminists rather than confess the lie, mitigate the damage by doing what they do best and that’s regulate and legislate men. So to the best of their ability they define all sex as rape, unless the guy has a notarized letter of consent signed by his “equal”
Clear?
@July 16th.
Orgasmicly versatile!!!!???? We are multi-orgasmic! Let’s see you beat that!
Even half drunk, I can come twice inside a stranger via just PIV. Let’s see you beat that!
And this isn’t a competition, but you did just illustrate how mythical androgyny is.
Male Superiority = Orgasmic Versatility
Female Superiority = Orgasmic Capacity
Yes. And more. As I said, pretty much everything you can imagine. PS, this girl (woman) is a 3rd year associate at a top 30 ranked AMLaw firm in NYC, pulling in ~$180,000 a year, with a degree from a top law school
Lol. There are a million NYC girls, yet they all seem to be cut from the same cloth.
“Even half drunk, I can come twice inside a stranger via just PIV. Let’s see you beat that!”
This is not a pissing competition, however, since ya’all want to get down to the nitty gritty…
Yes, I have multiple orgasms.
And no, subsequent orgasms are not painful!
It’s all good. Bloody good!
The last is not necessarily the best, neither is the first.
Sometimes it is just a build up .. I have sort of learnt how to gauge it.
Ya know, like I could go for 10 but the best one happens at 6, for example….
so I’ll stop at that.. I just know!!!
You can learn a lot about your body when you have been happily married to a wonderful bloke for 16 years.
@Jackie
Thanks, that’s exactly what I was trying to express.
@J
Numbness is the right word. I’ve read that both men and women are physiologically desensitized as a result of constant exposure to sexual material in the culture, though obviously porn is the obvious example. Apparently, many men who urged their wives to read 50 Shades of Grey are now sorry they did. They thought it would increase their wives’ sex drives, and instead it’s created insatiable women that the men are unable to please.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/06/fifty-shades-of-grey-men-stuggle-sex-demands_n_1746411.html
This is correct.
Although, I have had more than one girl ask for more pressure in the hair pulling.
And not just “acting”, but requesting things that I did not initiate.
@RWC
The particular girl that I referenced was never assaulted. Of this, I am certain. However, she did have an interesting childhood, though, as far as I can tell, no more interesting than mine or anyone else I have known.
@Ana
Yeah, this girl was a virgin when we first started dating and she absolutely never watched porn or read romance novels.
@Susan
Right. The girl I referenced had absolutely no interest in being hurt. Or, in being demeaned. However, she did want to experience male dominance.
@Gorb
I’m not on any feminist radar screens at the moment, because I haven’t gone after them directly with links in a while. I’m certain Amanda Marcotte doesn’t read HUS, and I don’t read any of their blogs myself.
However, I do get a lot of feminist drive-bys – every day they leave comments on old posts expressing their disgust with me. I rarely respond.
Interestingly, a feminist writer from The Frisky (a fairly trashy, slutty online mag) linked to me from her own blog recently, promoting a post I wrote on how to choose a marriage partner.
@Courtley
I totally agree! It is a learned skill, and I’ll repeat what I said to Sassy. It should feel a bit risky. Expressing emotion means making oneself vulnerable, so if you can identify those feelings that scare you a little because they’re intimate, that’s the place to start, IMO.
You may enjoy a couple of old posts I’ve written:
Female Archetypes and the Men Who Love Them
How to Be a Femme Fatale
Sue: “3. Ass spanking: ubiquitious in porn, something men expect during sex, many women comply and enjoy this. I would note that most women are not into pain – I am talking about a playful slap here, not something that would leave a mark or bruise.”
There is a lot in the middle, how about stinging redness?
I think you’re *way* off here. Women often want this overtly, not only in response to male aggressive desires. I have plenty of proof!
@Courtley
This is a great insight re female sexuality. Because we generally don’t compartmentalize our emotions, sex without emotional intimacy is definitely subpar – we know that women have far fewer orgasms in casual sex. That means one has to “try harder,” i.e. up the ante, to achieve arousal. Just having sex with a hot guy you don’t know is not stimulating enough – adding in fantasy, rape play, etc. may be required to get the dopamine flowing.
That article you linked is fascinating re brain activity for sex and love. I noticed the researchers were very surprised to find no gender differences.
@evilalpha
+1
Clear, and brilliantly expressed, thanks.
I have never been into pain myself.
Like a bit of “take me I’m yours’ kind of dominant stuff.
Like to be roughly taken..(especially by surprise~!) Like over the sofa, or the kitchen sink, for example.
All pleasure and noooo pain!
No slapping or hair pulling for me!
I really feel what happened to Zach is mostly immaturity, sort of a commitment phobia you gradually grow out of, I remember in my teens I was really bad like that, I’d really like a guy for ages and then he’d start liking me back and maybe come over a bit soppy and I’d freak out and go off him, like I was just not mature enough to get into a real relationship when the prospect became too real or something. I wonder as well if it’s something to do with personality type, the reality of a relationship can never match up to your fantasy of it and you inevitibly end up feeling diappointed when you get a taste of a real one, so you withdraw and hope it matches better next time, I remember someone else here (Iggles?) saying they were the INFP idealist type, I’d be curious if they’d had similar experience. I don’t think it’s necessarily the promiscuous type girls who are that way either, I remember a friend of mine who has never been promiscuous being exactly the same. Of course as you mature you realise that you can never expect reality to be exactly like your ideal and relax a bit I think.
@OTC
From a small sample, I trust?
I agree with those who described sexuality as being on a spectrum. There are many, many people at every single point on that spectrum. What is clear and undeniable is that sexual stimuli have gotten more explicit and extreme over time, presumably to get the same results (satisfying orgasm). Sexual dysfunction is increasing, especially among males 18-25. IOW, we need a lot more priming than we used to to achieve orgasm. It’s not just porn, all of us are bombarded with sexual messages in our daily lives. Fashion trends alone provide men with constant views of breasts and legs as they commute or work!
This would make a good topic for a post. I have not studied this in depth, but I do know there is a huge body of research on this question.
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