Young women today are encouraged to explore their sexuality as a form of empowerment. At the same time, we discourage them from seeking a committed relationship too early. This has produced a culture of no-strings sex and failed attempts to secure meaningful relationships, and many women are expressing their dissatisfaction with this script.
The first step in changing this dynamic is acknowledging sex differences. Embrace your femininity rather than your overt sexuality. Offer genuine emotional companionship. Lose the entitlement and shift your focus to giving.
Here are 25 things that men seek in a girlfriend. If you can cultivate and internalize these behaviors, you will be way out in front of the pack, because few women understand how important these qualities are to men.
Your results will only be as good as the effort you put into self-development, and will only be effective with a worthy man of good character. Don’t expect to flip a player with these moves.
Nurture: Escalate emotionally to create intimacy and loyalty.
Men are raised to be stoic, and they become adept at compartmentalizing their emotions. If you can bring out a man’s emotions, and create a safe relationship for him to express them, you’ve given him a gift, and he will repay you with loyalty and affection.
1. Actively support him.
Does he have an interview coming up? A big test? A rough week? Wish him luck, give him encouragement and let him know you are thinking of him. Express interest in hearing how things go, but do not create an obligation for him to report back.
2. Have his back.
In any kind of crisis, take his side. Always. Do not judge him. Whether he handled everything perfectly or needs to make some changes can be sorted out later if necessary.
3. Appreciate him.
Express thanks. Communicate the ways in which he makes your life better. Need him.
4. Physically care for him.
Feed him when he’s hungry. Nurse him when he’s sick. Hug him to show affection. Rub his back.
5. Have eyes for no one but him.
Actively discourage attention from other men. Avoid eye contact with other men. Ignore other men who stare at you or seek to engage you in conversation. Never, ever try to increase a guy’s interest by trying to make him jealous. Any success will be temporary, guaranteed.
6. Make him look good.
Be proud to be seen in his company, and tell him so. Work hard to engage his coworkers, friends or family in a friendly and generous way. Do not discuss his struggles or weak spots with anyone else. Create opportunities to introduce him to the important people in your life.
Cultivate: Bring effort and energy to the relationship.
7. Develop your own private language and inside jokes.
Whether it’s a nickname, a laugh shared, or a funny mishap, you can promote bonding by highlighting experiences unique to the two of you.
8. Be unconditionally generous.
Do nice things for him without keeping score. Focus on giving rather than taking.
9. Pay sometimes.
If he resists, as many men do, find ways to contribute financially other than splitting the check. Order tickets to a show. Cook him a meal at your place.
10. Remember his favorites.
Pay attention. He loves Maker’s Mark. He hates broccoli. He doesn’t eat pork. The Godfather is his favorite movie. His grandma’s lasagne is his all-time favorite comfort food. Find ways of bringing him pleasure by offering his favorite things.
11. Investigate his interests.
He’s a football fan and you know nothing about the game. Don’t pretend to be psyched for the Super Bowl, then stand around chatting and snacking with zero interest in the outcome.
He loves jazz, you think it’s for old people. Google the greats and then listen to some Miles Davis. Play it next time he comes over. He’ll be delighted you took the time to learn something for him.
Always respect the things he cares about. Never demean his hobbies.
Maintenance: How low can you go?
12. Be a pressure relief valve.
Be low maintenance. Be a safe haven, a person with whom he can be himself, even on his bad days.
If he has to work late, express understanding and flexibility. Don’t expect him to entertain you; offer to stay in sometimes or do something cheap and low key.
13. Do not compete with family and friends.
Appreciate his loyalty to family and friends, and his need to spend time without you in other relationships. Never compete for his affection with people who are important in his life.
14. Reduce your expectations.
Ditch The Rules. Don’t focus on minutiae like how long it took him to reply to your text. In fact, ditch the texting. It’s a terrible way to communicate anything but plans. Reward him for calling with a spontaneous plan on Friday night – say yes if you are free.
15. Avoid controlling and possessive behavior.
Never expect him to read your mind. If he asks what’s wrong and you say “Nothing,” it’s on you. Resolve conflict with a minimum of drama, and once resolved, let it go.
Never ask him to account for his time. Don’t ask him how he knows that girl at the bar.
16. Maintain privacy as a couple.
Let him know you’re not cackling with your hens about the relationship or his foibles.
17. Respect his privacy.
Never, ever go through his phone, email, facebook, etc. I have seen many women fall into this trap, and I once did the old-fashioned snoop for letters myself back in the day.
In addition to this being a form of theft, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by it. There is no upside to snooping. You can’t prove a negative, so you can never really be reassured when you don’t find incriminating evidence. You’re also likely to magnify any perceived infractions.
If you feel the need to stalk his media, it’s a symptom that something is not right in the relationship, and you should address that directly.
18. Suppress your neuroses.
Women are prone to crazy emotional drama, I admit it. It’s almost always best not to show this side of yourself to a man. Work out your emotional baggage with a therapist or close friend. You’ll be glad in two months that you never shared your paranoia that he had the hots for your sister or that you were sure he was dumping you that time his phone ran out of juice.
19. Stay sober.
Don’t be a sloppy drunk, it signals low value in every conceivable way. He might enjoy getting to see you tipsy now and then, but blackout drunk is never attractive.
20. Resolve conflict without emotional excess.
Express disappointment judiciously and without drama. Reward the behaviors you like, and withhold approval for behaviors you don’t like. Listen to his point of view. Never allow girlfriends to direct your actions or suggest confrontation.
Be his sex goddess.
21. Delay sex until you have achieved emotional intimacy.
He’s not going to commit to you for the sex, so you want to create a foundation for a relationship before you have sex. He should be thinking, “This girl is awesome, now if only the sex is great…”
22. Perform aural sex.
Tell him you want to be alone with him at a time when you have to wait. Tell him what you find sexy about him. Tell him you are so hot for him and only him. Talk dirty to him. Share a fantasy. A few whispered words can send an electric shock through a man’s body. Too many women neglect this form of seduction.
23. Jump his bones.
Surprise him, initiate physical contact. Men often say they want a girl who is a slut for them only. Let go of inhibitions and modesty. Be his sex goddess. Give him plenty of reinforcement when he turns you on.
24. Connect emotionally during and after sex.
Make eye contact. Be a bit vulnerable. Tell him your favorite physical things about him – his chin, his elegant hands, that small spot on his face where no whiskers grow, the soft area between his shoulder and chest that makes such a perfect pillow for your cheek.
Accept him “as is.”
25. Never go into a relationship with an idea of changing a man into what you really want.
These actions will help seal the deal with an emotionally available and mature man. Before you try for commitment with a man, you should qualify him as relationship material. Even one month of your time and effort spent on a player is a total waste.
For every bit of effort you make, he should be right there meeting you halfway. He should be:
- Interested.
- Reliable.
- Consistent.
- Moving the relationship forward.
You will need to be patient. It takes time to develop genuine intimacy and closeness. But you should see these four qualities at all times. If any of these are missing, he’s not a good match for you. Cut your losses and drive on.
{ 1351 comments… read them below or add one }
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@OfftheCuff
“Huh? Susan’s charts proved my point, that marrying men about 10 years older was so not rare”
I don’t think anyone said it was extremely rare, but the data plainly shows that a 9 years+ difference is much less common than smaller age gaps. I’m sure we all know a few couples who do have a 9+ year age range, but that doesn’t make them not a minority. I know a few, and in fact, I’d say the chart linked to on this thread is pretty congruent with all the couples I know in real life.
@Jason 1048
Cosign 100%. The vast majority of STRs I had I could have turned into LTRs had I wanted to. The objecting party was almost always me, not the girl. I’ve had girls I never saw outside of 10 PM-9 AM make dinner reservations for us hoping we’d start dating.
Also, how do you broach that topic with your nice guy friend? I want to help/mentor a couple of my friends who struggle with this, but unless they bring it up it’s hard to say “you suck at picking up women let me show you how”.
Also, @everyone, in general, as men progress throughout their 20s, the playing field tilts more and more in their favor, especially in NYC. Very politically incorrect to say, but a lot of biological clocks start ticking, and more of the “eligible” men start disappearing off the market. Every single man I know over age 30 (cousins, friends of friends, etc) has said that their dating lives were at their very best after they turned 26 or 27. And these weren’t beta chumps either, a few of them were very alpha.
@Zach
You NYC guys also have a nice ratio going on for yourselves back there.
If you can overlook the fact that this link is from a site called “Kareer Woman,” (yeah, spelled with a K) this map from 2009 is interesting:
http://kareerwoman.blogspot.kr/2009/06/cities-with-most-single-men-and-women.html
Zach,
It’s been an interesting process. I’ve been in this current social circle since I moved to where I am about a year ago, and I think the biggest thing has been him seeing me in action. It is hard for him to deny that certain things work when he keeps seeing them work over and over.
Hell, the first weekend I moved here, I went out with a bunch of the guys I currently hang out with and I cold approached a table of 4 and pulled a number, which I closed a week later. They seemed to be in awe of that.
By him continually seeing this, along with subtle suggestions from me over the months, he finally broke down and wanted some coaching. So I started giving him general lessons on frame, eye contact, body language, kino, opening, bouncing, etc., which he took to heart and started practicing when we went out. I made ground rules that said he always had to open, but I’d come wing after about a minute and help judge the set. While I give him a majority of the situational openers, he has been really into it, and seeing his effort pay off has obviously made him even more motivated.
I would say keep dropping hints, let your friends see you doing well and then gently offer to provide advice and to wing. Frame it in a way where they don’t feel like they are being ridiculed, but rather that you just want to help. You very well might be taken up on it.
Desiderius: “Disclaimer: I lost out to a 38-year-old when I was 21 (so was she) and a 34-year-old Bastiat Blogger clone when I was 24 (she was 23)…”
This made me laugh, my friend, although I’m not sure if having a clone out there is a good or bad thing… I hope the guy wasn’t just some total dick…?
Zach, Jason, Coops: you guys have many great years ahead of you. I think you’ll get a double-whammy in your favor: the relative male scarcity issue that is happening on college campuses will clearly have post-SMP consequences that will play out over time. If you guys all keep up the good work, stay in great shape, adapt to new venues, and so on as you cross the 30 threshold, you’ll be enjoying an appreciation curve and dominating your niche markets. I think that it should reach a fever pitch around age 35.
Sassy: Let me know if you need the names of some good night spots or boutique shopping areas in Orlando (I live there).
“On the Road is babbling nonsense that mainly appeals to men under the illusion that it’s somehow daring to be disdainful of women.”
” there’s no reason to slog through Kerouac’s prose to get the cheap thrill of vicarious misogyny.”
- Good ol Amanda Marcotte
How are the Marcottians able to overcome their illusions of misogyees saturating the ether in order for them to apply the 25 pointers?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/08/14/women_are_reading_for_fun_and_edification_not_because_we_can_t_stop_thinking_about_getting_married_.html
@ms j:
As one might imagine, my mom took my dads passing pretty hard; i dont know if she felt she was too young to be a widow. If she did, she never spoke on it-at least not to me anyway.
In some ways though, at least from my standpoint its all moot anyway: she would join him less than four years later.
I often see them together in my dreams.
O.
@Desiderius
Re Strauss and Howe on Millennials:
If they’re right, then the pendulum may be swinging back, and reflected in relatively low hookup rates and increasing virginity rates among both sexes in college. So far, Millennials are very committed to having children – whether they will or not remains to be seen. They are more focused on family than on marriage, so that will also be interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y
Apparently, Twenge isn’t so sure, as she cites the increasing rates of narcissism. She believes that Gen X and Millennials together make up Generation Me.
“Individualism vs collectivism.”
Eh. Not versus. The distinguishing feature of the human species is our ability to pivot between the two as needed. Ant colony to lion pride to lone wolf and back, with the change traditionally mediated by religion .
To keep religion from getting too big for its britches, our culture developed a generational cycle that smacks it down every so often. We’re currently recovering from one of those and people are rediscovering what religion is for. Susan’s generation is still mostly in smackdown mode, so struggles with the individual/collective thing, hence our politics.
“An age difference of up to 10 years is not so much. Beyond that you’re getting into an entirely different generation so the generation gap must be taken into account. A 20 year difference is like an entirely different culture.”
Well, if the culture you’re in sucks, that can be more feature than bug.
Susan,
“Apparently, Twenge isn’t so sure, as she cites the increasing rates of narcissism. She believes that Gen X and Millennials together make up Generation Me.”
Whatev. There’s only one Me Generation, and history will have little difficulty identifying which one that was.
He and Ana have the best Plain Jane radar, and I have the worst.
@Desi
That sounds great! Finger crossed indeed, keep us posted.
@mike c:
Like you, i too had to marvel at the sheer number of the male readers of the forum here who seemingly effortlessly rattled off at least half a dozen may-december (older male/younger female couples with an age difference on avg around a decade or so) couples where, if longevity=marital bliss, ALL the couples involved were quite happy. That this runs directly counter to the data ms walsh has presented, raises a few questions indeed i would think.
This is why i am very cautious about “data” because i know that at its best, it only tells a part of the story; and at worst it can and will give a grossly misleading if not out and out wrong impression of what the realworld looks like and operates. The simple truth is that this forum boasts as variegated a sampling of men one is ever likely to find-yet all of us have reported the same thing-that may/dec pairs are hardly as rare as the “data” would have us believe. I dont know about ms walsh, but i she were me, and i had a bunch of folk telling me that what my “dataset” is offbase, thats when i gotsta do a rethink…
O.
@Desi
Wow, porn must be a mainstay of the Czech economy.
evilalpha,
“A 25 year old man with GOOD options … unless he has peaked… should definitely wait…because in 5ish years his options will be GREAT!”
And… that’s what makes you evil. The whole house of cards depends on alphas taking a small one for the team and pairing up at an earlier age than would be optimal for them and sticking with the one they pair up with.
Hugh Hefner (and his myriads of playmates) went off that reservation and here we are.
@ms kathy, @ms courtley:
Before i begin-ms courtley, ive responded to you indepth over on the “who is responsible for single motherhood epidemic” thread, on the question of which is more problematic, the manosphere or the femosphere; lookinh fwd to your response.
Now…
Ladies, i truly do not see what the big deal is here; ive been following the discussion fairly closely (spent at least two hours before dawn reviewing all the post-exchanges on the matter), and from that i conclude that no man here has made a case for either of you or any other woman *must* get with an older guy in order to make things happen or indeed to be happy. Alls the fellas were saying was that such pairings of young(er) women and older guys werent as uncommon as we might be led to believe, nor were they so terribly “unhappy” either.
Morover i have to say, that suggesting that any such woman has to have an ulterior “agenda” for entering into such a union-that she cant possibly be “really” into her older man-is not only ridiculous but downright offensive to women-because it suggests that their either lying gold diggers, and/or are incapable of determining for themselves what they want, perhaps as a result of having “daddy issues”. I for one have know mucho ladies who had excellent relationships w/their dads and who still *sought out* older guys (again, were talking with a decade or so difference) with whom to get with. Not only have i observed this repeatedly across many states in our union, its also happened to me-virtually all of the ladies in my life, the vast majority of whom were at least on avg 5 years younger than myself, actually sought me out. Ive had about half a doz ladies who were about a decade or more younger than me-same deal. It happens a heck of a lot more than you think-or want to believe.
Yes, viagra et al is reality in our time and yes many men have availed themselves of it. However it would be a huge mistake to think that a sizable minority of guys, to say nothing of a simple majority of them-im talking the older fellas now-have trouble getting it up. As mike c has rightly pointed out, natures cure for any of that is to put that hot, young, tight chippie in front of oldhead, and we’ll see if the dark knight rfses or not. Im not a betting man, but if i were i would not want to lay odds against the chances that it wont.
Now look, i get where both of you and any other similarly disposed lady is coming from: you like guys closer to your own age; do you. Alls im saying is that the stuff you both are popping just dont jibe in the realworld where i-and by all accounts the vast majority of the older fellas here in the forum-live…
O.
@Sai
That’s easy, the wife part never felt like work to me. Mothering? That’s work, but I have not found marriage to be hard work. More like a project we work on together, and it’s rewarding.
There used to be a cliche that women would work as secretaries to put their husbands through medical or law school, and then they’d get dumped when the guy found a hot nurse or paralegal. I’m sure there was some of that. I don’t think that’s common today – my husband knew he would do well, he didn’t marry me for my money, lol. Actually, I didn’t have much either, but I wasn’t in much debt.
Susan,
“Wow, porn must be a mainstay of the Czech economy.”
Well, until recently those videos were easily available for free download one google search away. That was until the US government (likely in violation of international law) shut down the overseas downloading sites. I doubt that Zsanett Égerházi enjoys that kind of pull…
No question his MMV increases over that time. I would caution men who want to marry and have a family about deliberately waiting until they’re 35. That five years makes a huge difference when the kiddies arrive. It’s not easy being a new dad at 40. Of the couples I know with an age difference of 10+ years, most of them are first marriages for the woman but not the man. And most of the men seem to have agreed to children only if the woman did nearly all the active parenting – or at least that is what it seems like. Perhaps it’s just a function of the men being from a different generation, IDK. These are not diaper changers, though.
@Courtley
The young women I know still use “shady” quite a bit. Also, “that is not legit.”
BB,
“This made me laugh, my friend, although I’m not sure if having a clone out there is a good or bad thing… I hope the guy wasn’t just some total dick…?”
Not until he dumped her three months later and she had a nervous breakdown – amazing, amazing girl too. Real actual shame of a situation. She asked me if it was ok if he flew her down to visit him for a week in FL on his private jet (we’d been dating ~ 3 months, she had chosen me over him when we met together since we were close in age and he was 10 yrs older).
Nuclear anti-game = I said sure no prob. You know, if you love someone, set them free and all that. She never came back.
@David Foster
I really like that piece by Darwin! He married his cousin and had ten children! How fitting that he should reproduce so spectacularly.
I heard from a young woman I know last night who’s been reading this thread. She is dating someone 9 years older (she’s 24), and this is what she said:
“It’s like nothing I’ve ever experienced. He’s a man. He’s serious and mature. I’ve never seen him drunk. We go on actual dates!”
She also said that he has a touch of gray at his temples and in his sideburns, and she finds it extremely sexy.
Just one anecdotal report, but I thought it was interesting. She was very frustrated by the hookup scene in college, and kept her N low. She loves being able to swim in a very different pond post-graduation.
It reminds me of Marnie in Girls getting all worked up over Booth Jonathan, the 30-something artist who put her in her place by calling her a silly girl.
Pssssst. (steam from hot Ted)
Ted, your Game is very tight. Well done, you are the prize!
Interesting, this dovetails quite well with what Zach has been saying recently. You two really are like Click and Clack.
Another good reason for women aged 23+ to skip straight to guys 28+.
Sai, as I said, partner selection is important. There are surely crappy people out there, both men and women, and it is wise to avoid them even as acquaintances. But these people generally announce themselves readily, and it doesn’t take much power of observation to spot them. The difficult cases are those who speak good words but act differently. Always watch their actions. Take note of red flags like inability to admit wrong or to take personal responsibility.
About your questions. 1) Being a good support is quite easy. Cook, clean, regular sex and affection. The first two I would do anyway when single; the second two are not difficult work but rather fun for me. Bill collectors are not a problem when you live within your means, and having a job is far less stressful than being unemployed. Been there with my husband, and that was definitely not fun.
2) Men who drop their wife for better looking are very few — this is definitely apex fallacy. Maybe celebrities and gazillionaires do it, but not the vast majority of men. If you don’t bring the crazy drama, take care of the basics, treat him well (this very post of 25 items), and stay in shape/look good for your age, there are very few men who would “trade up” to a younger, hotter girl. Exceptions are the “crappy people” I mentioned.
As for the post itself, a few observations.
1. While i readily concede that ms walsh did not use the terms “girl game” nor “feminism” in her post, it is clear that at least a few of her prolific and regular commenters saw it in this light, using the term “girl game” quite a bit; morover, ms walshs opening lines of her post clearly DO speak to the very feminist orthodoxy i mentioned earlier in the discussion. I would like to introduce two devastatingly politically incorrect steps any woman must do if she is to have any hope of landing a bf she actually wants:
Spend all her available time improving her appearance
And
Lower her standards.
It is perhaps not w/o coincidence that ms walshs lengthy list doesnt mention much about the first point above-and it is in my view to said lists detriment. For this is the pivot upon which male-female attraction turns. Simply put, a woman can do all of the perscribed steps above, and still very much strikeout with a guy if she is not hot enough for him not only to cash in his chips, but for him to even stop and holla. The post presumes that “first contact” has occured and gone smoothly from there, and i am here to say, not so fast. Many a “cool” woman has found herself standing when the music stops, and among the biggest reasons for this are to be found in the one-two combo of the two steps ive noted. Not hot enough and aiming way too far outta her league-something that, to her credit, ms walsh has gone on record herself in cosigning.
The “four sirens” as roissy likes to put it, has really put women-especially the middle of the pack gals-in a hella trick bag-because it not only has effective removed their natural assortative counterparts on the one hand, its also pumped said ladies with the “i wont settle for less!” ‘tude that has them spurning aidan for mr big-and getting neither in the end. In an age where being the jumpoff has almost become a badge of honor, whats needed is more such gals being told the truth to: youre not built like that, control your enthusiasm, and for real though, get a grip. To be sure, most guys aint gonna say jack because who wouldnt turn down effortless booty on demand, and most women have themselves been cowed by the very same feminized-fueled political correctness that is the inspiration for ms walshs latest from saying anything because if they do theyll be branded as “haters”; but doggoned it, somebodys gotta go there. Many women dont want to hear this in our time but that doesnt make it any less true: getting with a guy who is a clear point or so under you in physical attraction ensures that he will remain into you. When the places are reversed nothing but tears and grief follow. My recommendation is two points: a 5 guy will jump for joy that he pulled a bona fide 7 and happily cash out. For he truly has hit the motherlode. Bring in ms walshs “25″ and homie will be eager to catch a bullet for you.
Please do not sweat the technique ladies: all the stuff mentioned above can be learned and for real aint dealbreakers for the vast majority of men walking around out there on the bricks. What IS, is a homely gal who thinks she can swim with the sharks. Many lasses have been chomped up that way.
When ms brown sugah and i first met i could possibly care less if she knew the difference btw sonny stitt and chick webb; or knew the difference btw sugar ray robinson and sugar ray leonard. Or could rattle all the members of the wutang clan *and* their affiliates. What mattered first and foremost was her grill, her figure, and whether she had good home training; once that was in place, everything else fell into place. Do it the other way around, and i bounce.
As so many guys often do.
In the seduction community there is what is known as a “sticking point”. It occurs where a gamesman keeps encountering the same problem in-field. For example, if he keeps coming across ladies who flake on him, then its something about him thats making that happen. The same can be said here:
If you keep running into a brickwall in terms of why guy after guy wont “wife it”, and/or, you just aint attracting any action at all, chances are really high that its you and not them.
The two simple steps above will adress that.
Ms walsh 25 will lock him in.
Good luck ladies!
O.
“Another good reason for women aged 23+ to skip straight to guys 28+”
And another for me to go renew my Xbox Live subscription.
@Obsidian
The data in no ways contradicts the FRs here. I think 7% is a pretty big number. I also suspect that age gap varies a great deal by SES group, especially since we’re talking about marriage, and we know those rates vary dramatically by education.
Racking my brain, I can think of the following couples with an age gap:
F 62, M 55, first marriage for both, 28 years.
F 55, M died this year at 75. Three kids, his third marriage.
F died at 40, left 2 young children, M 72 at that time, his third marriage.
F 55, M 75, 2 kids, she was his resident after med school, he left his family for her.
F 70, M 79, my dad, not married, together 15 years, she has never been married.
F 41, M 58, not married, together 8 years, he is divorced, two kids.
Of the younger couples I know and the weddings I have been to in the last few years, I can’t think of any couples who looked noticeably different in age. Most of them met at work or in school – assortative mating is definitely the norm.
In my circle, the age differences mostly occur with second or third wives.
I’ll take that up with the Census Bureau right away. Once they find out Obsidian disagrees, I’m sure they’ll want to send everyone door to door again.
I find it frustrating and strange that a lot of men here are resistant to the idea that women don’t want to marry men who are older ( by ten years) than them. Men who are 2-6 years older than their wives is not too bad, but ten years is definitively too much IMHO.
Yet, women will marry men who are ten years older than them if he is
1. rich
2. successful
and she is
1. older (30 +)
2. in a competitive environment like NYC or D.C.)
but men will only see that a 35 year old man married a 25 year old girl and they won’t see what women often see, that the 25 year old wants the 35 year old’s money and is waiting for time to pass so she can divorce him and take his checks)
Now, do some 25 year olds marry 35 year olds for love?
Sure?
But this is a bug, not a feature.
There is a 18 year old at my college who married a 30 year old guy.
That 30 year old guy is a millionaire.
In general, a woman who loves you when you have no money and are not successful, is a woman who will love you when you are successful. This is why many women, like me, aspire to marry guys who have little money, but huge potential for future earnings, because I, personally, don’t want to marry into money, I want to make money with who ever I do marry. Furthermore, poverty one must struggle to overcome can be a huge bonding experience for couples. Even more, regular sex, attractiveness and so on go down the hill when men get too old.
that said, as a 35 year old who makes over 100 k a year, you might be able to get a 25 year old, or a 30 year old to marry.
But men must be wary, because this calculation can backfire
1. The woman might marry you for your money, with the intention to divorce you and cash in on alimony/child support.
2. The most attractive women with the kindest personalities will probably be taken off the market by then and you’ll be fishing in a market of alpha dumpees and cock-carousel escaping 30 year old women.
3. A 25 year old is more likely to divorce you if you make less money or she sees a better prospect. A significant number of divorces are initiated by young women because she knows she can get better prospects in her short market dominance.
4. If you have been sleeping around a lot, you maybe loathe to give up the player lifestyle and find it hard to settle down.
If you are 50 and older, when you get married, your children are at risk. Children of men 50 and older are at higher risk of mental illness.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=children-with-older-dads-at-greater-mental-illness-risk
There are probably other risks for children of older fathers.
Men like to think that women dominate the market from 16-29 and they dominate the market from 30 into infinity.
The reality is after a certain point , men’s looks downgrade and they lose the opportunity to find any kind of love.
Most people look at Hugh Hefner and see a man who has sex with beautiful women in a mansion all day. What they don’t see is that after he divorced his first wife, he has had a succession of ever shorter marriages, his last marriage was called off by his 24 year old girlfriend. Why? Because at 85, Hefner has nothing to offer her except his money. She doesn’t live him and never will.
I was referring to the number of Czech “models.” I recall that when I researched gay male porn for a post, much of it was also Czech. I am serious – it is clearly a major industry for them.
While what you say is true, as I’m more likely to be perceived as a player, it is very easy to turn a STR into a LTR, if that is what I desire. So while younger guys are more sought after for a STR, the women are still very much open to a LTR with that guy.
Ah, how quickly you young men, your minds befogged by the bewitching sights, sounds, and smells of new strange, forget. I quote a certain young player: “No, that 6th date girl is actually not still on the scene. I couldnt believe it, but she (a girl) was more interested in booty calls than dating.”
If I recall correctly, she was a career high-flyer, likely one perceiving her MMV to be higher than your own. So her behavior is in line with expectations. To be interested in a serious relationship, you’d have to have something to offer that exceeds the value she places on her career. You won’t have that, while 35 year-old you might. Right now, your age and circumstances help your SMV while lowering your MMV in the eyes of the women who deem themselves your equals or betters. (The other STR group who wouldn’t agree to an LTR would be those whose SMV/MMV are much lower than your own; they simply won’t believe you’re genuinely interested in an LTR.)
General rule: the higher the woman’s SMV and self-perceived MMV, (which is usually overrated), the greater the disparity between what she’ll require in STR vs LTR and the more she shuns perceived players for the latter while favoring them for the former.
@Cooper
Or you could be the exception. Like Jason said.
@Obs
Of the many thousands of words that Obsidian has written here at HUS and elsewhere, at least half of it may be summed up in this advice to the ladies:
BE HOT.
That is all. No need to read the whole thing.
Sorry, I meant love in the last sentence.
Also, I wanted to address Ted, who looks spiffy in his wedding suit. Congrats, and cheers to a long, happy marriage.
Susan,
Sorry, but I’m still not buying this. I see firsthand that there are swarms of young and mid 20something post college guys that are mature, have good jobs for their age and want to take girls on dates. In this market they are called betas, don’t incite the tingles and practically get nowhere with women through their tactics. This was exactly the case with my buddy whom I’m mentoring. The stories of him being a nice and genuine guy, only to get shit on by supposedly nice girls are kind of brutal. And this is the same story with a few other guys in my current social circle.
Your reader obviously ignored this substantial subset of guys, and is/was probably attracted to the alphas her age, but had the self control not to indulge.
I find it frustrating and strange that a lot of men here are resistant to the idea that women don’t want to marry men who are older ( by ten years) than them.
We are not resisting it, we are rejecting it as an irrelevant statement used to bolster an observably false argument, and the women who keep yapping about it clearly don’t understand the basic concept of trade-offs. Yes, women ideally want to marry a man who is richer, better-looking, smarter, and slightly older than them. This is called hypergamy. Since few women possess an MMV to rate their hypergamous ideal, they are almost always required to make trade-offs. Accepting a few additional years over the optimal age difference in exchange for some other positive attribute, which may be money, status, intelligence, or culture, is entirely normal and tends to work pretty well for both parties.
And so far, no one who claims that all women marrying men ten years older are doing so solely for their money, with no love connection and the primary intent of divorcing them in order to obtain their resources, has succeeded in showing that such marriages are more likely to end in divorce than pure love marriages between two 21-year olds. And since the latter marriages have high rates of failure, I tend to doubt anyone will be able to do so.
Coop,
“And another for me to go renew my Xbox Live subscription.”
That, or grow up/a pair. Your choice.
VD,
This wasn’t from me, this was from Zach.
And no, not every single STR can be turned into a LTR, but in a solid majority of my STRs I firmly believe I could have turned them into a LTR if I so desired. Zach’s experience backs this up too, with the above exception. Obviously there are outliers, as no one hits the target 100% of the time, but I’ll stand by my own experience.
@Jason
Co-sign this 100%. See it it my social circles all the time.
I always get a chuckle when I hear girls complain that there are no responsible 20-25 guys out there… absolute bs. There are plenty of guys in that range who are responsible and looking for honest relationships (At least 2/3 to 3/4 of the guys I know fit into this group).
Again, agree 100%. For guys, the STR->LTR strategy probably has the highest rate of success compared to other LTR strategies.
Very possibly. But she does find the current guy’s age attractive nonetheless.
Okay, Jason and Zach obviously don’t really want an LTR right now. So why should we try arguing that they pursue strategies to land an LTR. If STR mating works, keep having one-night stands. I’ve been lurking through this convo for a while and thinking and I’m wondering if any LTR relationship Zach or Jason makes with a early to late 20 year old, marriage desiring woman, is not against her best interests.
If Zach or Jason have an LTR, the girl will probably be out of college, and not yet 30. This is a woman’s prime reproductive age. Since neither wants to settle down and get married, they would ostensibly waste prime fertile years of her life, dump her and then move to the next pussy. So, if they want STR’s, that’s awesome .
VD,
“which may be money, status, intelligence, or culture, is entirely normal and tends to work pretty well for both parties.”
My post clearly stated that many women will marry an older man for money. The problem comes when the older man doesn’t make that kind of money anymore or the girl sees a better option because she is younger than the man. And VD, as I said, women who are over 30 will have less options and will settle for an older man. The key word is :settle.
That woman isn’t necessarily that much in love with you, she knows she has no better options so she’s making the best of it. Some women will genuinely love older guys, this is a bug, not a feature, imo.
Anyway, while we are at it.
Guys, say you had a wife who was kind, perfectly attentive, raised your kids well and basically fulfilled all wifely duties you expected of her; but you know she doesn’t really love you and settled for you instead of another guy she actually desired.
Would you be happy in that relationship? Could you live with that?
“Sorry, but I’m still not buying this. I see firsthand that there are swarms of young and mid 20something post college guys that are mature, have good jobs for their age and want to take girls on dates. In this market they are called betas, don’t incite the tingles and practically get nowhere with women through their tactics. This was exactly the case with my buddy whom I’m mentoring. The stories of him being a nice and genuine guy, only to get shit on by supposedly nice girls are kind of brutal. And this is the same story with a few other guys in my current social circle.”
They are the male equivalent of the (female) target audience of this post – otherwise successful professionals struggling (or, actually, the problem is not taking the time/energy to struggle, and thus learn to improve) to make a love connection.
We avoid the struggle because we’re so good at other things its easy for us to focus on those and just use a general “mirroring” or golden rule strategy for the social stuff. The more androgynous the environment, the better this works, but its disastrous in dating where there are very real, inexorable gender differences.
A “beta” male acts the way that is attractive to him in a female partner (basically, the tips in the post) with disastrous results as the game blogs can teach you. Likewise I can’t tell you how many otherwise attractive professional women have completely turned me off by employing guy game on me – doesn’t matter how hot they are.
A couple (of the relatively tame – the sexual aggressiveness is well documented) examples:
(1) A man showing less interest than the woman is a big turn on for her due to hypergamy. Game blogs teach men to have a busy schedule and to have some difficulty fitting her in. A woman who does that with a man, and this is a huge strategy for professional women, is telling him that he’s a low priority for her. Not gf/wife material from the get go. A good man will bail to find a woman who finds him exceptional, a bad one will pump and dump.
(2) The casual “bf” mention. This is an attempt to DHV via preselection. A man with a gf has higher value among women, and a woman with a bf has (much) higher value among her peers.
Doesn’t work (at all) to build attraction in a good man. It either means you’re really already taken and looking to trade up (huge DLV) or you’re trying to nicely reject him. I think even the most clueless professional women sense this on some level, but I’ve known several who will reflexively blurt this out and then wonder “why did I do that?”
Missapplied mirroring.
Susan,
Curiously, I wonder about the status of this guy when he was in his mid 20s. Was he a beta type who matured, realized that he has more options with his success and is now exercising them, or was he an alpha type who at 33(?) is now thinking about settling down (assuming the dating goes anywhere)?
“I was referring to the number of Czech “models.” I recall that when I researched gay male porn for a post, much of it was also Czech. I am serious – it is clearly a major industry for them.”
I guess, in the sense that cotton-picking was a major industry for southern blacks. Don’t have to be a marxist to who’s taking the biggest share of the cut there.
Just a thought,
Susan – “Ted, your Game is very tight. Well done, you are the prize!”
Make no mistake. I have no delusions of grandeur regarding my game worthiness, and I’m damn sure I’d fail miserably if I attempted to go the PUA route. But, I am the master of my own life, and I’m damn well determined that no matter how it turns out, I will not go quietly into that good night.
Now in terms of prizes, I do consider myself a pretty damn fine catch.
Just a thought,
Also, even if your assertion is correct that a LTR with me or Zach is a bad idea for a mid 20something girl, good luck in getting these girls to stop trying. Won’t happen. A lot of girls would rather crash and burn horribly taking their shot at an alpha than to settle for a beta at this age.
@mike c:
Like you, i too had to marvel at the sheer number of the male readers of the forum here who seemingly effortlessly rattled off at least half a dozen may-december (older male/younger female couples with an age difference on avg around a decade or so) couples where, if longevity=marital bliss, ALL the couples involved were quite happy. That this runs directly counter to the data ms walsh has presented, raises a few questions indeed i would think.
FWIW, I don’t question or take issue with the data Susan presented. I’m pretty sure those percentages match reality. The thing is those stats don’t say what some of the female commenters like J and Courtley think they say. Go read VD’s comment as he explains the data. If most guys married between say 20-25 then obviously they are not marrying 10-15 year olds (10 year age difference). A good percentage of those marriages were probably 20-25 year old men marrying women basically the same age or a few years younger. The more interesting number would be to look at JUST men who married at say 35-40 and see the corresponding female age. Are men who marry at 35-40 (which is probably a much smaller percentage relative to men who marry at 20-30) basically 90-99% marrying 35-40 year old women or does 25-30 year old women make up a good percentage of those marriages. That is the relevant percentage.
Which is beside the point, which is that some serious 9-10′s are producing some nuclear strength porn, and there are now some Americans getting in on the action.
If you’ve got a sex-positive bone in your body, the stuff is in some sense actually beautiful. I’ve had to give it up for brain chemistry reasons, but many of the usual criticisms of porn do not apply.
@ Bastiat Blogger
Oooh! I’d appreciate that. I’m staying at the Peabody Hotel, and maybe I’ll have some time for shopping this weekend.
No, would rather not marry. I’m sure some guys are perfectly content with this, I just couldn’t be.
The hamstering around the age difference of marriage is getting ridiculous. The hard data backs up our claims that marriages between women in their 20s and men 10 years older are quite common. The first report I found through Google was for England and Wales: “Age differences at marriage and divorce”. Look up tables 4b and 5b. They clearly show that the largest age differences are for women 30yo.
@ Just a thought
That’s impossible. If she settled, she’s going to be unhappy at best (and thus unable to make a proper emotional connection) or a bitch at worst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahha3Cqe_fk
No question his MMV increases over that time. I would caution men who want to marry and have a family about deliberately waiting until they’re 35.
I’m as market/cost-benefit analysis based as they come, but to me there is a point where you can really over strategize. I don’t think of a committed LTR as something you try to “cash out at your max value”. At the end of the day, you meet the right person when you meet the right person. Whether male or female, I think it is foolish to pass on a quality person if they happen to cross your path before your “peak value”. I think younger people can’t appreciate this as much as someone who is a bit older, but it really is pretty rare to come across someone you are attracted to, COMPATIBLE with, click with, have a good time with, and generally have the same life mission and goals.
I think one of the things that is sort of subtext to some of this discussion that makes some uncomfortable is that from the age of 25 to 35, male and female SMV AND MMV follow radically different trajectories. No way around it female SMV and MMV declines substantially from 25 to 35. Now just like men, I actually think a woman who works hard at it can maintain much of her looks and I’ve seen very physically attractive 35 year olds. But there is no escaping the fertility decline, so for a guy who want kids, a 35-year old woman is a much worse prospect than a 25 year old woman. How many 25-year olds are going to rack up tens in thousands in IVF treatments versus 35-year olds? No doubt, a 40-year old father is probably going to have some issues that a 30-year old probably won’t, but again it comes down to how well he has kept himself up
@ Shadow over Santa Suza
“Introverted women don’t invest in success and status. Success and status driven people are those who are highly invested in mainstream social lives. Extroverts.”
Isn’t it the opposite? We tend to value the skills we don’t have and admire them in others.
I’m an introvert female and I always go for the men with status, success – doesn’t have to be money, but confidence, could be a rock star type of guy – whatever. See it in others as well. The guys I’ve dated had ex-girlfriends who were also introverts. I’m a big believer in opposites attract.
And keep in mind that introverted only means I need to be by myself a lot and need to take breaks from too much social contact. That’s all it means really.
Jason 773,
I know that a lot of women won’t stop trying. Unfortunately. Similarly, a lot of guys will continue to go for and marry attractive women with problems as opposed to low maintenance ugly women. A morbidly obese woman wants desperately to eat a piece of cake. It’s not good for her, she’ll keep trying. Just because you want it doesn’t mean it’s good for you.
This blog is meant to get women to re-examine their prejudices and date. Susan, here is trying to get more women to stop ” crashing and burning” dating alphas and settle for a beta.
Jason773,
One of the things you mentioned is correct. You didn’t really talk about your dating preferences and practices on this thread and I haven’t done the relevant research on other threads. For that, I will apologize, I was wrong.
In Zach’s case, I have followed his story from multiple posts and I’ll have to disagree with your second statement. If a man goes to bars, hooks up with girls weekly and claims to want an LTR, I’m not convinced. What Zach is chasing is the “feeling of being in love” which does not an LTR make. Similarly, if I claim to want to be a 5 star chef but only ever fry eggs in a pan, you cannot really take my desire seriously. In order to get an LTR, one has to take LTR steps. One of those steps, is eschewing hooking up and looking for a more valuable LTR partner. But many guys, like Zach don’t want to settle down, which is fine because no one has to do anything he/she doesn’t want to. But it’s a discontinuity, I think.
@ Jason773, Jimmy Hendricks
This is what I’ve always been complaining about. That at my age, seeking LTRs is penalized, and thus to obtain an LTR, I have to look for an STR first. I have a hard time doing that.
To help people understand: $205,000 is the the cutoff for the top 1% in income (rounded to nearest thousand).
I am at the 95.91th percentile this year and suspect I may rise to the 98th next year. I suspect before I leave this job I’ll have at least one year at the 99th percentile. I know several of my co-workers have including ones a decade younger than me.
So, 30ish computer programmers in finance with a strong mathematical background can be in the 1% and are in the 5%.
INTJ,
What’s the hangup? If it’s not religious, then I just don’t get it. A vast majority of women won’t value your selectivity, so why hold onto it as a prize? If you are looking for the small minority of women who will value it, then start looking in the right places (IME teachers, nurses, asian girls), in which case the girls who do penalize are of little concern to you.
Guys, say you had a wife who was kind, perfectly attentive, raised your kids well and basically fulfilled all wifely duties you expected of her; but you know she doesn’t really love you and settled for you instead of another guy she actually desired.
Would you be happy in that relationship? Could you live with that?
No and No. The thing that makes me happiest in my relationship is that I am 99.99999% sure I have her complete love and devotion.
@VD
Re: 6th date girl. Absolutely, she didn’t want an LTR. I never said every girl I went out with/hooked up with did. I said most did, and I did not (with them).
@Justathought
There seems to be this whole idea that because Jason and I engage in casual sex/hookups that we don’t want an LTR. What I think you’re missing is that just because we want an LTR doesn’t mean we’re desperately unhappy with hookups.
Let’s make an analogy: Bob works in a job at Widgets inc. Bob is well-paid, and enjoys his job most of the time. He likes his coworkers, his office, and his boss. One day, he finds out there is an opening at Bubbles Inc. Bob thinks that the work at Bubbles Inc will be more interesting and more in line with his goals. It will also pay more. Bob decides that he is going to try and get that job at Bubbles Inc. Bob submits his resumes, schedules interviews (dates), and networks. The point to make here is that Bob does not quit his job at Widgets Inc. while he is doing this. Bob likes his job at Widgets Inc. Most of the time, it’s fun and stimulating, and it pays well (Bob also needs the income. For income, read sex). Just because a dream job is open at Bubbles Inc. does not mean Bob becomes unhappy with his job at Widgets. When Bob gets the job at Bubbles Inc, then he will quit his job at Widgets. He will likely miss some of the aspects of Widgets Inc, but thinks he will be happier at Bubbles Inc.
Get it? Widgets Inc=STR, casual sex. Bubbles Inc=LTR. I think the rest of the analogy speaks for itself.
Lastly, the other thing you’re missing is that there is no reason for Jason or I to settle for a relationship now. I don’t want to speak for him, but I’m pretty happy at Widgets Inc. Given that I’m happy, I’m going to interview at a lot of different companies, not just Bubbles Inc. I want to find the best job I possibly can, and am not going to settle for an “ok” job because I’m rushing to get out of Widgets Inc. I’m only going to leave Widgets Inc. for a job (girl) that I think is incredible, and will be worth leaving behind all the perks of Widgets Inc.
@Jason
Hope I didn’t misrepresent you with the above analogy. Also re: 1087, I agree with you. I don’t there’s an issue with going on dates though. I know the Game guys scream bloody murder about them, but there’s nothing wrong w/them in and of themselves. I go on plenty of dates (had one last night, 2 more later this week), and it’s so I can test girls out for LTR compatability. 75-80% of the time, I’m the one who turns down date 2, not them. The key is to just act as you would in any situation with a girl. Confident, charming, etc. Plus, I enjoy going to restaurants and good bars, and I can afford to do so.
For instance, the girl from the date I had last night was a little dull, and so I won’t be asking her out again. However, she was cute, and this weekend she told me she’ll be hosting a couple friends from college. Hence, I shall invite her and her friends out to meet up with my friends.
And what does any of this have to do with the chances of a successful 35 year old man marrying a 25 year old woman if that’s what he wants?
Absolutely nothing!
I though we were sharing anecdotes… Sorry, my bad, next time I will only say what agrees with men’s ideas or shut up.
@Ted
You are not old enough to be your wife’s grandpa, neither you are rich enough to have something to compensate for age in the case of a gold digger so I will say you shouldn’t take this personally.
I mostly try to say that telling men that they can wait it out because there is “Teen punani at the end of the 40 year old rainbow” is as bad as telling women to wait till they are 30 to start looking for a husband. I come from a place were the laws to protect minors from engaging on sex/marry older people are moot and very personally enforced and it doesn’t work like that either. The whole culture of “I have an old man that gives me everything” is very common among sluts we even have merengues pocking fun at the whole thing. Just being good sport, feel free to ignore it guys and wait for as long as you want to.
@Just a thought
“What Zach is chasing is the “feeling of being in love” which does not an LTR make. ”
Absolutely that’s what I’m chasing. I don’t understand why that is a bad thing. To me that’s really the most valuable thing by far about an LTR. Sex? I can get that pretty much when I want. Cooking for me? I can cook pretty well myself. Someone to hang out with? I have friends for that. Social status? For plenty of guys, a girlfriend is actually a negative social status marker. Someone to talk to? Again, I have friends/family for that. So yes, absolutely the reason I want an LTR is the feeling of being in love. And if I’m in love with someone, I want an LTR with them. Put the cart/horse anywhere you want.
Not religious (I’m atheist). I just feel icky about physical intimacy with a large number of girls.
Asian girls are certainly much better, but in my experience only the traditional ones are interested in non-White guys, and it’s difficult for me to make a connection with traditional Asians, the same way it’s difficult for me to find things in common with highly religious girls.
I’ll start looking for teachers and nurses though.
Zach,
The analogy was apt and funny. Makes sense as a Wharton econ major (if I remember correctly).
In regards to dates, I don’t mind them, and they can be a good strategy, but a guy just needs to know what he is doing, which most guys don’t. My standard date would be a drink or two at a bar I like, with a clear understanding of how to escalate if I’m feeling it. Honestly though, I’ve found dating like that unnecessary, as I can get girls out just as easily by inviting them to something.
Zach, I did say in post 1108, that many guys like you don’t really want to settle down. You are perfectly happy where you are. This is why I’m not so sure why the HUS sphere ought to be giving you ltr advice, you don’t really need an ltr.
Ex: I’m a woman who don’t need no man.
When you hear that statement, you think well she doesn’t really deeply desire a guy. She doesn’t need him. similarly, you don’t really need a gf. Therefore you are playing the market and holding out until you find the most perfect woman ever. When you really want an LTR, I suspect you can go find one and get it. But you have to really, really want it, I think, or else it may not come.
Anacaona, I agree with you. I’m really tired of this whole 40 year olds with find teen punami at the end of the rainbow. I won’t date a 40 year old now, neither will any of my pretty buddies.
I also wish guys would note that waiting isn’t necessarily a foolproof strategy. If the guy loses money during his 30s, girls won’t like him. Furthermore, the more you wait, the more the best girls will be fished out of your dating pool and eventually you might be left with ugly girls or pretty girls with serious issues. As you go into your 40s, your dating pool shrinks. By your 50s, you lose attractiveness and most hopes of a relationship. Men can wait to marry, but YMMV.
@ Just a thought
Not for men. It certainly holds true for women (as we were pointing out to Sassy). But not for men. Paradoxically for men, the less you want an LTR (or at least act like you want an LTR), the better your chances of being offered an LTR.
No question his MMV increases over that time. I would caution men who want to marry and have a family about deliberately waiting until they’re 35. That five years makes a huge difference when the kiddies arrive. It’s not easy being a new dad at 40.
Well that’s my plan. And I have several “mentors” for which it seems to have worked. Why do you say waiting if you wanna have kids is bad?? Details please.
I though we were sharing anecdotes… Sorry, my bad, next time I will only say what agrees with men’s ideas or shut up.
But you weren’t “sharing”. You were undermining.
Introverted women don’t invest in success and status. Success and status driven people are those who are highly invested in mainstream social lives. Extroverts.
Interesting idea. Most of the women her are Is.
It is worthwhile to explore the love angle, because most men don’t want to be in an LTR with or marry a girl they aren’t in love with, unless the man is non-mainstream in some other way (fundamental LDS for example).
As Zach’s personal experience illustrates, a woman can be hot, stable, sane, tick almost all of the boxes on girlfriend material, and if the guy isn’t in love with her, it’s still no go. The takeaway lesson for girls is to not get with such a guy.
When it comes to age and generational differences, love should also be considered. Research shows that most people fall in love with someone similar in background, personality, temperament, and socioeconomic status — assortative mating and sameness attract, not opposites.
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/do-opposites-attract
Due to maturity differences and individual idiosyncrasies, it is entirely possible for a woman to have more in common with a man 10, 20 years older than herself and for them to fall in mutual love. Personally, I’m early Millenial and have a lot of nerdy male interests, and the men I have a lot in common with tend to be my own age. My husband and I are very similar. It is one of the reasons why we fell for each other so easily.
@Just a thought
Ya think? They’re kryptonite. Precisely the guys marriage minded women should avoid at all costs, indefinitely.
Update: Eh, I’ll take this back. Zach fits this description with his talk of maybe never wanting kids or marriage, having all the time in the world, etc.
Jason has been avoiding ONSs and been thinking more about relationships and the future.
Not that it’s a competition or anything.
@ SW:
+1
I don’t question the ability of guys in their 30s being able to pull women 10 years younger. I actually don’t like an age gap like Ted’s (8 years) is a big deal, so while 10 is a round number when women get to their late 20s and beyond age differences like that don’t matter so much.
In terms of logistics though, while a guy’s MMV goes up by his 30s, waiting to 35 to “settle down” can be risky. As Zach pointed out upthread, it’s hard to find someone you’re into and vice versa! You might find a nice woman who ticks off all the right boxes, and later red flags appear. Time spent with her is time wasted if the goal is to find a partner for marriage and children. Ditto for women who realize as time goes on that their man isn’t marriage material (whether it through cheating, no desire to get married, or plain incompatiablitly!)
Still all things considered, a 35 year old man is going to have an easier time finding a good spouse than a 35 year old woman! And, yes, a 30 year old woman too! The reason being that the numbers are in his favor (i.e., having the pick of the litter).
@Jason
Good question, IDK. She doesn’t either. His history appears to be several LTRs, and he was willing to go exclusive very quickly. If I had to guess I would say lesser alpha. She doesn’t want to know his N, which is interesting.
Oh please. A girl’s gotta make a living? No one is making them exploit themselves.
But you weren’t “sharing”. You were undermining.
I’m sharing the anecdotes as they were, if they sound undermining, is not my fault.
My anecdotal is totally the opposite with more women dropping older men to marry their peers.
I think even here that there are women who will be “an old man’s darling” for a while because he is nicer or has resources and them move on because they don’t want to be stuck with an old guy.
I had a friend that actually had man that was not only 20 years her senior but filthy rich and she broke up with him because she wanted to start a family and playing nurse was a real possibility.</i.
Yeah, it's one thing to nurse a man you've spent a lifetime with when you yourself are older and another to take on a man you have no history with.
I agree with your post.
“Paradoxically for men, the less you want an LTR (or at least act like you want an LTR), the better your chances of being offered an LTR.”
Bubbles Inc. is only accepting applicants with Widget Inc. work experience.
@Susan
“Ya think? They’re kryptonite. Precisely the guys marriage minded women should avoid at all costs, indefinitely.”
Wait a minute. Why?
@Mike C
Ha, you anticipated my new post and you are not going to like it
“Teen punani at the end of the 40 year old rainbow” is as bad as telling women to wait till they are 30 to start looking for a husband.
And???
Who said teen? Who said 40? And who said average?
The successful guys I know that have waited till later (late 30’s, early 40’s) to get married have fucked lots of 20 something poon for the past decade or more. They aren’t delaying gratification as you characterize. They are choosing to hang up the cleats based on personal reflection, not because they were holding out for the promise of 7 virgins.
This reflects current marriage trends–it’s become far more common for doctors to marry doctors and lawyers to marry lawyers, as opposed to marrying nurses and secretaries. …. It’s actually become harder for women to ‘marry up’ by working lower-tier jobs in traditionally male professions because they are competing with the female professionals.
Yes,indeed. I actually watched this occur over the years since I graduated from college. In my UMC neighborhood, the older doctors are married to teachers and nurses; the younger ones to other doctors.
You are such an astute poster, Courtley. I really enjoy your posts.
Vegas was a blast! By far the best vacation I’ve had in ages. We are already talking about a return trip in 3 years when my oldest turns 21 in fact.
Great! I’m so happy that you’re happy, Ted.
@INTJ
Yes, that is the hookup script. Physical intimacy before emotional intimacy. As screwed up as that is, that is the norm now, for both women and men. Pluralistic Ignorance explains why it persists despite the fact that many are uncomfortable with it.
She is definitely going to consider that a sign that you want to see her again.
Evilalpha needs to be put over someone’s knee and spanked.
Evilalpha needs to be put over someone’s knee and spanked.
I didn’t realize you were such a flirt.
It is exhausting. Truly. I had my first at 30 and my second at 33, and I remember thinking, “There’s a reason we’re biologically capable of doing this at 15.” My brother married at 40, and now has two kids, 9 and 11. He’s 53, going gray, and dealing with his son crying over not getting off the bench in a Little League game. He’s racing around attending parent-teacher conferences, helping his kids with their homework and music practice, etc. He was just here visiting (he lives in Italy) and we took those kids all over the city, it was impossible to tire them out. But we were knackered. My husband and I really feel for him, it’s a long row to hoe.
INTJ (and Cooper, who’s also INTJ?), offering the LTR upfront should not be a man’s strategy. Your strategy should be screen, filter, and make the girl qualify herself for the LTR. Your attitude should be “I’m skeptical. Why should I be with you? I’m waiting to see what you can offer…” as opposed to “I’m all in!” on day one.
It’s not about your end goal, but about the process. You can have the same goal of LTR and go about it differently. For example your goal is to buy a new LCD monitor. You would be smart to look at different manufacturers, read reviews, comparison shop, etc. Or you could go and buy the first one you fancy, but you might get a crappy one.
The LTR-search is also different because both people are screening each other and potentially other candidates at the same time. You definitely don’t want to give up your own power to screen. This is why men who put the LTR offer on the table upfront are not taken up on their offer. The deal hasn’t been struck, and you haven’t built up sufficient attraction yet.
LTRs are not based on logic (I know NT folks love it, but!), so just because girl Y is single and wants a LTR, meets guy Z who is also single and wants a LTR, does not mean Y and Z are going to automatically get together based on those same goals. A romance is built on attraction, emotion and love. Focus on those processes.
“The successful guys I know that have waited till later (late 30’s, early 40’s) to get married have fucked lots of 20 something poon for the past decade or more. ”
and they typically do not fish for a wife from that poon pile
@Cooper
See my Update. There are two reasons:
1. Neither one appears to be looking for “the one” – the motive for an LTR seems more to do with “I’m sick of ONSs.” That’s a weak level of interest for a woman who is marriage minded.
2. Both have high N. I still believe that this makes long-term monogamy a gamble at best. I am not saying they will have any trouble getting women, but it doesn’t mean that it’s in a woman’s best interest to marry either one.
It is exhausting.
Fuck. No one ever explained it to me like that. Hmmm. So is that exhaustion calculated without close immediate family/au pair/nanny to help or with assistance?
Cooper: “Bubbles Inc. is only accepting applicants with Widget Inc. work experience.”
In light of the analogy above, this is really a good insight.
@evilalpha
I didn’t say my knee. You’re a real wiseguy, though, you need to be brought down a peg. Seriously, you’re very sassy with a hair trigger. Don’t be snarky.
@ Cooper
Lol.
Actually, it’s amazing how the job market is so similar to the mating market for males. My mom describes how in old India, employees tried to stick with one employer, and the employer would reward that loyalty with promotions and good pensions. In the contemporary American job market, people need “prior experience” just to get an entry-level job (i.e. relationship, and once they get a job, they tend to move around between companies to maximize their position.
The successful guys I know that have waited till later (late 30’s, early 40’s) to get married have fucked lots of 20 something poon for the past decade or more. They aren’t delaying gratification as you characterize. They are choosing to hang up the cleats based on personal reflection, not because they were holding out for the promise of 7 virgins.
Good for them. Is not a strategy obviously but many men here are just telling young guys to hold out. I’m just commenting than holding out for too long has downsides, which seems to bother some.
@Susan
Spot on about not being sure if I ever want kids. As for marriage, you’re right, right now I’m kryptonite. And, I suspect, I won’t ever want marriage *for the sake of being “married*. I can tell you that I do eventually want to find someone I love and spend my days with them. To me, marriage is just a pronouncement/codification of that love/commitment. If the girl I love wants to get married, I’m all for it and would absolutely do it. As an atheist with no religious background, I don’t invest it with any special significance beyond its symbol as a gesture of commitment. To me, it’s no more important than a personal commitment to each other, without the attendant ceremony, celebration, etc. I will absolutely ensure a pre-nup though (I have assets to protect).
@Cooper
“Bubbles Inc. is only accepting applicants with Widget Inc. work experience.” I actually laughed out loud at that one. Great line. And with female pre-selection going on, largely true.
@INTJ
You hit the nail right on the head.
@Susan re: INTJ
That’s exactly it. I (and most guys I know) just don’t view ONS, casual sex and finding a girlfriend as inherently conflictive. As in the only benefit to the latter of stopping the former is that you’ll have a few more hours a week to spend on it. Our experience has borne this out by and large. If you have data that shows otherwise, I’d like to see it. And I don’t mean that men with high Ns are less likely to be married/in LTRs, because that doesn’t seperate those who can’t from those who choose not to.
@evil
I became a SAHM, so never hired a nanny. But even my husband was tired. He would get home, we’d feed the kids, bathe them, read to them, tuck them in. Then we’d make our own dinner at around 9. We’d go to bed around 11, and if they slept through the night (babies don’t) we’d sleep until they woke up at 6. This applies to weekend mornings as well, btw.
There’s laundry, breakfasts, making lunches, driving, waiting during lessons, medical appointments, they get sick a lot, they want to be engaged in play most of the time, go to the playground etc.
My husband and I used to joke on Sunday nights that we felt like we had spent the weekend moving to a new house.
Of course, I am from the helicopter parent generation – you can get away with less if you don’t plan to give five star service
Skeevy is the new creepy, and yes, I also like skeezy. “Sketchy” made a splashy showing while I was in college and I quite enojyed that, but it was too trendy to last. English is fun language.
Skeevy comes from the Sicilian verb “to be disgusted.” It’s guido slang that worked it’s way into the mainstream.
Cooper, “In ten years, I’m going receive a ton of adoration and affection from 25-30yo women who all have remarkable resemblance to women that have rejected me for the last entire decade. What do you think I’d want to do to them? Reward them with that loving commitment, that they once held from”
Drop the ‘tude, dude. Its not hot. The women you will be meeting in 10 years are not the ones who are rejecting you now. Why take out what other people did to you on them?
@ Hope
That’s all well and good. The problem happens when I have to borrow all the LCDs and try them out before choosing one and returning the rest. I know people who make shopping decisions like this, but as an INTJ, I’d much rather do a lot of research, choose the best LCD, and then stick with it.
@EA #1036
You’re LMAO? LOL. I am here to please!
@Zach
No, it’s clear that for the top males, this is the most effective strategy. You are sitting pretty in this SMP, as you well know.
@ SOSS
The 25yo women who will be interested in me when I’m 35yo will obviously be neglecting the 25yos their own age. Maybe by pumping and dumping them I’ll be able to steer them to those guys.
@Susan.
Holy crap. I got some re-thinking to do. You just pinned me. And of all things it was with a cliched “what about the children?” move.
@ Susan
PI explains why people are hooking up. What it doesn’t explain is why a guy rejecting the hookup script is a DLV.
Anacaona @1147
I don’t endorse the holding out strategy. I think men should be out looking. If it takes that long to find what you are looking for, then so be it. But, I can say from personal experience that the pool diminishes significantly. Good women do not last on the market for long. Men may have a longer expiration date, but who wants to get a product near or at the end of its shelf life?
This peak value thing can be looked at from a perspective of a declining asset. Who wants to invest on the slide down?
I think it is more common women and men to squander years of their youth and beauty that should be given to their spouse to help bond them for the future of their children.
The neuropsychology seems to indicate we are meant to bond, and for those bonds to be reinforced. Deliberately sabotaging those bonds over and over, and then expecting them to still hold strong when you need them seems like a bad strategy to me.
“This reflects current marriage trends–it’s become far more common for doctors to marry doctors and lawyers to marry lawyers, as opposed to marrying nurses and secretaries. Some economists cite this as a cause of the rising gap between rich and poor in the United States”
Rich and poor? Nurses make good green, they are not poor by any stretch. Neither are secretaries (do they even exist anymore?) I think the terminology now is “office assistant” or something like that.
2 middle managers who marry will have two combined middle management incomes which can put them firmly in the upper middle class if they play their cards right.
“I’m actually living and working abroad right now…I’ll be moving back to the States this fall and intend to seriously look for a life partner at that time.”
Why wait til you return to look Courtley? A foreign spouse has its advantages.
Susan,
Oh, it can be a difficult path to travel. Let me give you a story from two weekends ago, which I could hardly believe. Thank God I had witnesses to this event.
I was at a bar with a few of my buddies and some girl, probably a 7, comes walking through dragging a guy along. She made some serious rip your clothes off eye contact with me and I turn to one of my buddies and say “that girl just eye f’ed the hell out of me” and point to the girl. Ten minutes later I’m at the bar with a friend trying to get a drink, I get a tap on my shoulder and it’s her. We talk for ten minutes, she BUYS ME a beer, and then writes her name, number and address on the receipt and says “come over later tonight” and heads off (she lived in the same neighborhood). Even I was caught off guard. The sick part…the guy she was dragging around earlier was just standing with a buddy 5 yards away patiently waiting for her to come back (I felt bad for the dude. How much disrespect is this guy willing to suffer through?). I then went back to my buddies and showed them the receipt.
In the end I didn’t take her up on it, but I’d be shocked if I don’t see her out again on the weekends. Things are just getting ridiculous.
@ evilalpha
It’s amazing how people never think these things true. Granted, today it’s the women who’re busy pursuing their careers assuming their fertility and looks will last forever, but surprisingly even many rational men haven’t considered how important it is to have children early.
Huh? Susan’s charts proved my point, that marrying men about 10 years older was so not rare, and even counteracted SayWhaat’s claim they were for sex only. Less common for sure, but not impossible or even uncommon. And certainly much rarer than a man and older woman.
Not rare, OTC, but 7.something% is certainly not the statistical norm. I don’t doubt it happens, but I’d hate to see a man I cared about counting on finding a 25-30 yo when he is 41. Men can miss the boat too. I think that guys who tell each other that their SMP will definitely rise to point that they score a young HB are doing each other a disservice. To give a personal example, I as you know had kids late in life, but I never say to other women, “Hey, you know what’s a good idea? Try to get pregnant at 40! It’s easy.” It’s similar. Some people get lucky; most don’t.
Oh, the Christian woman just had Daddy issues, nothing more complex than that. She cheated, remarried the cheater, and cheated on him too.
“PI explains why people are hooking up. What it doesn’t explain is why a guy rejecting the hookup script is a DLV.”
THIS! What is it about our current society that makes a guy looking for an LTR appear to be a loser? Is it because they aren’t “one of the herd” by following the hookup script? I would think being an individual would be a DHV, but at least in this case it seems to count against them.
Posted without comment: Jimmy Kimmel has proposed to his long-term girlfriend Molly McNearney.The 44-year-old talk show host popped the question while holidaying in South Africa’s Kruger National Park, his representative has confirmed. Jimmy and 34-year-old Molly – who is a co-head writer on her partner’s show Jimmy Kimmel Live – began dating in October 2009, a few months after he split from comic Sarah Silverman after a five-year romance. August 15, 2012
My post clearly stated that many women will marry an older man for money. The problem comes when the older man doesn’t make that kind of money anymore or the girl sees a better option because she is younger than the man. And VD, as I said, women who are over 30 will have less options and will settle for an older man. The key word is :settle. That woman isn’t necessarily that much in love with you, she knows she has no better options so she’s making the best of it.
It’s not settling, it is a tradeoff, one of many. She will trade extra years for money or any other desirable attribute he has, just as she’ll trade an out-of-shape body for a handsome face or self-confidence. Your argument is not so much wrong as incomplete and irrelevant. The fact is that a woman will likely leave her husband if he is unemployed for an extended period of time regardless of the age difference. And a better option is more likely to be an older man with more money or status than a younger one, as women who leave their husbands usually end up with men who are older than the men they left.
In case anyone is interested, based on the 2000 US Census that Susan cited, the actual percentage of men who married women 10+ years younger who COULD marry women 10+ years younger is 9.4 percent, not 7.2 percent. However, 10 percent would be a more reasonable figure, since the Census numbers cover everyone from 15+ and virtually no one marries at 15; the 9.4 percent includes the male 25-28 population even though they are not often marrying women between 15 and 18.
In some ways though, at least from my standpoint its all moot anyway: she would join him less than four years later.
Aw, jeez Obs, I’m sorry that she went so young. I lost my mom in her late 80s last year, and my dad in his early 90s a few years ago. At least, when they pass at a good old age, it seems more just.
“How does being in a relationship give support/motivation for someone to work extra hard?”
It doesn’t. If one is lazy and unmotivated by nature, a relationship won’t change that. In fact, the relationship will just enable it further and he or she will become a moocher off his/her partner.
That’s easy, the wife part never felt like work to me. Mothering? That’s work, but I have not found marriage to be hard work. More like a project we work on together, and it’s rewarding.
I’m just the opposite. Having a good marriage has meant a lot of intra- and inter-personal work on both my and DH’s part. Motherhood has been a pure joy–even if I do occasionally bitch about kids.
@INTJ
It’s not a DLV if he can demonstrate that he has options, which he is choosing not to exercise. Desperate behavior, i.e. going all in too early, signals a lack of options. That is the DLV. Where hookup culture has an effect is in warping the truth about what men and women want. It leads women to believe that all men want casual sex. If you appear to be an outlier, you’d better have a narrative to explain that, because otherwise people will assume you can’t get it, and will take sex any way you can get it. As we’ve discussed often, this is the main reason women are wary of quick offers of commitment.
As for marriage, you’re right, right now I’m kryptonite.
Statistically speaking, as a high-N atheist, you don’t need to worry about marriage. Few woman with an MMV to be of interest to you would have you. According to ARIS, only 34 percent of atheists ever marry and they have the highest rate of marriage failure at 26.4 percent.
Of course, you never know what the future will hold. I was agnostic until I was three years older than you are now.
“In the nightclub scene, the young guy will win hands down 95% of the time I’m sure. However, day game is a totally different ball of wax, and I think older guys can often use their status as leverage when approaching women outside of the bar scene. ”
People should be completely done with the bar scene by mid 30s. Its highly undignified to be trolling bars looking for a lay in middle age. It comes off creepy and desperate, and that goes for both sexes. Morning or mid-afternoon at cafes is another matter.
Wow, epic fail on my last comment. Really, I am the QUEEN of typos today!
Let’s try this one more time:
I actually don’t think an age gap like Ted’s (8 years) is a big deal, so while 10 is a round number when women get to their late 20s and beyond age differences like that don’t matter so much.
There! Coherent, no?
@ JutR:
+1
There’s a lot of luck involved with dating, but a lot of the time once people “get their shit together” (i.e., resolve whatever issues are holding them back) they don’t last on the market long.
In my case, it took me a year and half to get over my last LTR and during this period I was single. However, once I began actively dating I was in new relationship 5 months later. With my bf, it took him about 3 months to find someone once he decided he wanted a LTR!
Excellent point!
Explains why many promiscuous men and women have trouble staying faithful once they get married.
It’s amazing how people never think these things true. Granted, today it’s the women who’re busy pursuing their careers assuming their fertility and looks will last forever, but surprisingly even many rational men haven’t considered how important it is to have children early.
I wonder if it’s about thinking things through. At least for me it is more about which information and whom to trust. When it comes to advice for delayed fatherhood I’m kind of leery of the “sperm expires at 40″ cacklers. But Susan was a SAHM and is legit, so her rationale carries weight.
@Jason
What a story. Sounds like she is strictly in the short-term lane with a pathetic orbiter for continuity. If that was her BF, taking her up on that offer would have been risky on several fronts. Good call.
She is dating someone 9 years older (she’s 24), and this is what she said: “It’s like nothing I’ve ever experienced. He’s a man. He’s serious and mature. I’ve never seen him drunk. We go on actual dates!”
It amazing how many of the anecotes on this thread center around the 8-9 year mark. Somehow in my mind, 10 years is the cusp of problematic (not as alarming as 15 years, but getting a little iffy). It’s also one of the cut-off points in your data.
@VD
How is 26.4 percent the highest given that almost half of all US marriages end in divorce. Last time I checked, 50%>26.4%. But if you’re segmenting that way, then you could say it’s equally as hard for a Jewish man to get married, as Jews only make up 1.2% of the population (according to ARIS). However, that doesn’t stop tons and tons of Jews from getting married (mostly to other Jews). You’re inferring causation from numbers that don’t provide it. It’s just as likely atheists are less likely to be married because they choose not to be. Given that marriage has a heavily religious component to it (at least traditionally), that’s a perfectly plausible thesis.
@evil
I don’t buy the sperm expiration theory. There are some risks of increased birth defects, but I don’t think they come close to the risks with an older woman.
Please know that it’s immaterial to me when you have kids! I’m just pointing out that it is hard work, or it was for me.
@Ted D
The “hookup script” is in-grained quite deep, isn’t it? So much that women figure it’s safer to assume that a man “has issues” if he isn’t following it – it being seeking STR.
Furthermore, that the man not following the herd could possibly pose more risk to them than the men who actually have known risks, to monogamy, associated with then.
It’s kind of emasculating, to be completely honest.
I’m just the opposite. Having a good marriage has meant a lot of intra- and inter-personal work on both my and DH’s part. Motherhood has been a pure joy–even if I do occasionally bitch about kids.
Is this some sort of rule? So far marriage has been relatively easy so does that means that motherhood would be hard? Writing and stablishing a name/career on it is hard for me so maybe that is where the hard part comes dunno. Can I be greedy and ask for motherhood and marriage to be easy?
According to ARIS, only 34 percent of atheists ever marry and they have the highest rate of marriage failure at 26.4 percent.
Yikes! Didn’t knew that. Can yo link me to it to the study?
Hubby and friends were having this discussion about religions growing trends, for some reason they though Hinduism was the number 1, they had to Googled it, when I told them that is Christianity and that Muslims are going to outnumber us really soon, he then mentioned that atheism is the fastest growing but without reproduction they would not be majority ever. I think is something interesting to ponder for all of them.
I get a tap on my shoulder and it’s her. We talk for ten minutes, she BUYS ME a beer, and then writes her name, number and address on the receipt and says “come over later tonight” and heads off (she lived in the same neighborhood). Even I was caught off guard. The sick part…the guy she was dragging around earlier was just standing with a buddy 5 yards away patiently waiting for her to come back (I felt bad for the dude. How much disrespect is this guy willing to suffer through?). I then went back to my buddies and showed them the receipt.
LOL…good one. I had a couple similar experiences when I was bouncing. I had one girl write me a note propositioning me on the back of the beer bottle label she had removed. I’ve actually kept it as a souvenir
Still crazy to me some of the stuff I saw or had on the table.
I’m kind of leery of the “sperm expires at 40″ cacklers
No one said it expires, but male infertility DOES increase with age. That’s a fact. Yes, a 40 yo man on average is more fertile than a 40 yo woman, but most men do experience a drop in quantity, quality and motility compared to when they were younger. Some men will indeed be unable to father a child. Others may father defective children. (IIRC, Simon Baron Cohen thinks the rise in autism partially correlates with later marriage for STEM types.) Men need to be aware of that in planning their futures.
Also, if you want to stick with ARIS, two other things to note. While only 1.2% of the US pop is Jewish, 12% is atheist (based on stated beliefs, not religious identification). Even by self-identification, 1.6% is atheist or agnostic. So if I’m limited to fishing in my own pool (which is not the case; I could easily tolerate someone who believed in god but was not religious, which is a far higher proportion of the population), I’m better off than many other minorities. Yet somehow no one talks about Muslims or Jews having trouble finding spouses. Also, this (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/12/pew-survey-doubt-of-god-growing-quickly-among-millennials/).
From ARIS:
“Nones are still less likely to be married and more likely to be single and never married, but not substantially so. Of note, there is no difference indivorce rates between the two groups when adjusted for age. That there are relatively minor differences in marital status between Nones and the general U.S.population once age is taken into account.” (Nones being those with no religion, including atheists and agnostics)
While it is certainly possible, and even common, for couples 40+ to have perfectly healthy babies, you have to consider what shape you are going to be in during the terrible twos when you have to run after them all day. How are you with sleep? By middle age many people require more sleep than they did in their younger years and babies have a tendency to keep you up all night, if not regularly then certainly time to time, and you still have to make the next mornings commute to work. How about when they want you to engage them in rigorous play or sports? Mountain climbing? Biking? Its common now to see couples in their mid 50s with teenagers but teenagers are hard to keep up with at that age. And lets face it, its kind of embarrassing for kids to have “old parents” although I suspect that might have changed now that there are so many of them.
INTJ, Cooper and Ted D, could it be that the guy looking for LTR is not bad because of the LTR orientation itself? Might it be that his strategy of optimization is at odds with the female filtering mechanism?
Something like 75% of females are Feeling types on the Myers Briggs, with only 25% being Thinking types. Most Feeling types of girls would be looking for their emotions to be ignited, not for the most “logical” choice of partner. They want to fall in love, and the rational man (NT) coming along is not connecting with them emotionally / not making them fall in love. They do better wth STR strategy (like Zach who is also NT) because being aloof and gaming the girl evokes emotions.
The Thinking types of girls, like Sai, might intellectually deduce that you aren’t the most “logical” choice of partner, due to not having reached sufficient resource status. Therefore they might be LTR-oriented, but they decline your offer based on the same NT optimization logic you are using.
My husband is NF with LTR-orientation, and he had two girls before me tell him they loved him. He actually was friendzoned but still managed to connect with them emotionally. To use the Inc. analogy, he had early experience with Bubbles Inc. without working for Widget Inc. Many men around these parts are NT types, while the women tend to breakdown half NF and half NT.
Is this some sort of rule?
I think it depends on how screwed up your childhood was. DH and I both sort of put off marriage while trying to get over our childhoods. And, of course, after getting married, we discovered that we were both still sort of screwed up.
So far marriage has been relatively easy so does that means that motherhood would be hard?
Not necessarily. I will agree with Susan that it can be exhausting, especially if you are older, but I loved it.
Can I be greedy and ask for motherhood and marriage to be easy?
You can ask; we’ll see what life answers .
“Hubby and friends were having this discussion about religions growing trends, for some reason they though Hinduism was the number 1, they had to Googled it, when I told them that is Christianity and that Muslims are going to outnumber us really soon, he then mentioned that atheism is the fastest growing but without reproduction they would not be majority ever. I think is something interesting to ponder for all of them.”
The fasted growing belief demographic is categorized as “non-religious”. This group is comprised of atheists, agnostics and people who call themselves “spiritual but not religious.” In other words, people are rejecting organized religion. The fastest growing organized religion by adult conversion is Buddhism and the fastest growing religion because of reproduction is Islam, but those born into Islam do not always remain Muslims in adulthood so we’ll see in another twenty years.
@SOSS re kids over 40
The birth of my sons bracketed my 40th b’day. Despite one high risk and one ultra high risk pregnancy, both kids are healthy and gifted. It was no doubt more physically fatiguing to have kids as older parents. OTOH, I think we were wiser and that made parenting easier in some ways. I don’t think my kids are embarrassed by my or DH’s age. Older parents are fairly common in our area, we look fairly young, and, besides, we do plenty of things that are even more embarassing. We do get tired, but keeping up with the kids does force us to take better care of ourselves. I’d say we are more youthful than our parents were at our ages, though we certainly aren’t kids.
Iggles, I agree that generally when people start and maintain a course of self improvement with the intent to find a marriage partner that they quickly tend to sort out what they want and what they can get.
My problem was that I was a little slow in getting to where I wanted to be. And, I swore off dating for a long time while I was working on self improvement. I was pretty convinced I had a lot of time, and that I’d be the kind of man that women wanted. When I got there, I really didn’t find much to choose from, and significant dangers in selecting wrong. Given the proclivities of the SMV, finding a healthy low N woman who would have my children and respect the marriage vows was minimal.
After some more internal railing against the machine, I accepted the reality and decided the risk will never be worth it.
But, if someone doesn’t care about controlling risks, his/her judgement may lead in another direction.
Yet somehow no one talks about Muslims or Jews having trouble finding spouses.
Sure they do, especially Jews. Both have a rather intermarriage rate because there is a smaller pool of compatible people to choose from.
I think it depends on how screwed up your childhood was. DH and I both sort of put off marriage while trying to get over our childhoods. And, of course, after getting married, we discovered that we were both still sort of screwed up.
Oh interesting.
Not necessarily. I will agree with Susan that it can be exhausting, especially if you are older, but I loved it.
Well I’m in my middle 30′s so…we will see how old I am soon enough.
You can ask; we’ll see what life answers
I will bake life some cake, that surely will help
@Ms. Walsh #1080:
“The data in no ways contradicts the FRs here. I think 7% is a pretty big number.”
O: Hold up, wait a minute! Just last week you were giving me the biz because I leaned on a certain commenter who shall not be named, when she tried to weasel out of my point that 33% of ANYTHING was indeed a pretty big number; both of you tried to argue that it was “small”.
Now you gonna seriously try to argue that 7% is a “pretty big number”?!?!?
Come on.
“I also suspect that age gap varies a great deal by SES group, especially since we’re talking about marriage, and we know those rates vary dramatically by education.”
O: I don’t know about that, Ms. Walsh; look, I think it’s fair to say that of all your commenters, I’m the most “alien” – yet, my observations and experiences, almost perfectly aligns with what the vast majority of your male commenters have had to say on the matter. That ain’t about “SES”; that’s about something much more siginificant…
“Racking my brain, I can think of the following couples with an age gap…”
O: OK then – what were the “SES’ of all those couples – were they largely the same, or were they wildly divergent?
“Of the younger couples I know and the weddings I have been to in the last few years, I can’t think of any couples who looked noticeably different in age. Most of them met at work or in school – assortative mating is definitely the norm.”
O: Yet by your own admission, you’re dealing with a very narrow cohort – since you seem to be on board with Murray, per Coming Apart he defines the Cognitive Elite as the top 20% of the (White) American populace. As Hacker rightly notes, that’s probably too big a slice to tell the truth, but for sake of argument here, let’s apply it – even still that’s only a putative one-fifth of the population. Significant, but hardly a game changer demographically speaking (though of course, they have outsized power and influence for reasons that are a bit out of the scope of this discussion…).
“In my circle, the age differences mostly occur with second or third wives.”
O: OK – and what of their first marriages? Was the age difference more or less than say, five years?
“I’ll take that up with the Census Bureau right away. Once they find out Obsidian disagrees, I’m sure they’ll want to send everyone door to door again.”
O: Indeed!-it has never been a state secret that Black folk have had longstanding concerns about the accuracy of the US Census, for what by now should be fairly obvious reasons; and in that I’ve actually done a bit of work in that regard, yea, what you said.
I’m The Obsidian, and I approved this message…
O.
I’m leery of taking up with a goodhearted slacker with potential. My sister was dating a man who worked a low level management 9-5 office job and lived with his mom. His dream was to be an “entrepreneur”. He moved in with my sis. Shortly after his mother died and left him some money and he quit his job vowing “never to work for The Man again”. His inheritance wasn’t a lot but he said he was going to “invest it in real estate.” Red flag! This was when real estate was at an all time low and he had absolutely no training in the field. My sis was right there by his side encouraging him while he surfed Craig’s List looking for houses to flip.
At all our family gatherings he would introduce himself as “being in real estate” when asked “what do you do?” We all rolled our eyes. Months went by and he spent his inheritance money on rent, beer, food, a used car and new electronics for the apartment. When a better model than my sister appeared on the scene he dumped her for her. Better model means the new girl wasn’t any better looking but had a career and her own place, and a few connections in the local music scene. He moved right on in, got her pregnant, married her and is now living in bliss as a SAHD and dj-ing at the local reggae clubs every once in a while.
I forgot to mention that before he and my sis started dating he asked her, “if we were to marry would you sign a pre-nup?” This from a man who never had more than 400 dollars in his bank account at any given time! I guess he was looking toward the future, toward his “potential”.
Another anecdote. My aunt, a single mom in her 40s started dating a 60 year old divorcee from her religious group. He was living off of government assistance at the time but “had potential” because at one point in his life, when he was married, he was making big bucks. He told my aunt that the reason why he was no longer making money was because he had “no inspiration” but now that he met her and the boys, he is re-inspired to get back out there again. My aunt, sweet soul that she is, believed in him and encouraged him. For a while they were both floating ideas for a business, thinking they’d make a great team, and yes, both are intelligent people. Well, she invited him to come and stay with her for a month to test the waters of how it would be living together and he freaked out. He “loved” her, “loved” the kids, but the thought of being a father again at 60 when he had already raised a family to adulthood, and the thought of taking on all that financial responsibility again just freaked him the hell out and he took off!
So this whole “my relationship will motivate me” line is complete nonsense.
Now I know these are both anecdotal stories but lets face it, humans make decisions based on what they see and experience in life, not based on statistics. If I see two examples of women standing by men “with potential” and they don’t work out, then I’m going to be hesitant to do the same. While nobody needs to be Donald Trump level rich, are they at least able to live independently on their own completely support themselves with no help from the government or their parents? That’s what I would look for at a minimum, potential or not.
@J
Why wouldn’t they be.
Put it another way. I expect to be in the 1% income wise in my early 50s with a paid off house and banking towards retirement at 60.
If I was alone and wanted female companionship I have a couple of choices:
1. Date women my age who spent 30 years having no use for me but suddenly did when I got money.
2. Date women in their mid-20s who only have use for me when I got money.
A man who has been rejected by women but gets popular when he gets money has to assume all of those new found interested women primarily (possibly only) care about his money. If given the choice between a used up shrew who may have shit on him in the past and even if she hasn’t is pretty representative of the women who did and a cute piece of arm candy which do you expect him to pick? Plus when the latter turn 30 and old you can trade them in.
Me, if I’m alone and rich I’ll just become a regular of a high end call girl for sexual needs. It’s more honest.
About a week back on another discussion I mentioned that I noticed there were significantly more Women to Men here in my hometown of Philly – a point Ms. Just A Thought was keen to point out and opine upon further.
But the map Ms. Courtley has furnished us confirms what I’ve long known; there’s a big ole red dot over Philly that’s the same size as NYC, though it seems to have more albeit smaller, blue dots surrounding it (per the map’s legend, “red dots”=Women; “blue dots”=Men). So it ain’t like the ladies here in Philly can’t get anybody; they’d just have to be willing to move a weebit.
Again, very interesting map; thanks again, Ms. Courtley!
O.
Shadow over Santa Suzana, I don’t disagree with the need for caution one bit!
I don’t like to talk about my own crappy family history, but my father was the guy from a poor background who latched onto my mother with her family connections to study abroad in America. Then he filed for divorce from her as soon as he got some money, not to mention took money out of her bank account when he left. He’s now a rich doctor and twice divorced. So, yeah, I was on extreme watch for any man who was going to screw me over… since I was like 12.
But I guess must have inherited some kind of romantic streak from my mother. I still preferred the poorer guys to the guys who already have it made. This was the case for me starting from puberty. Sometimes you can’t help your attraction triggers and idealism, but you can definitely temper them with prudence.
@Obs
I mean relative to the comments. Many who commented knew a couple with around a 10 year age difference (OTC knew several). That’s 1 in 14. I personally could list hundreds of couples that I know well enough to distinguish an age difference. Assuming 7%, and that I “know” 500 couples, that’s 35 couples with a big age gap, which sounds like a lot, but really isn’t as a percentage.
All UMC and white.
Hard to say, as I know the second wives. Based on the age of the kids (30+ in general) I would guess they were close in age.
I actually don’t see any reason for debate here. Vox’s analysis bringing the number to 10% is reasonable. I’m not sure what you think the real percentage is, but I don’t really care what it is, to be honest. People should marry who they want to marry. Most women don’t go for much older guys, some do, for a variety of reasons.
How is 26.4 percent the highest given that almost half of all US marriages end in divorce. Last time I checked, 50%>26.4%.
First, because people with multiple divorces get counted multiple times with the first method and are omitted from the second. Second, because a survey of 50,281 American residential households is going to produce different results than simply tallying all marriages and all divorces. Third, the per 1,000 population divorce stats aren’t reliable. Six states don’t even report, including California, and worse, the “divorce” statistic is “an estimate which includes states not reporting” and includes “divorce petitions filed and legal separations”.
But if you’re segmenting that way, then you could say it’s equally as hard for a Jewish man to get married, as Jews only make up 1.2% of the population (according to ARIS).
No. Jews are 60 percent Married, 18 percent Single, Never Married. No Religion is 19 percent Married, 33 percent Single, Never Married. (2001 ARIS, the full 2008 isn’t available for DL yet). It’s not merely a numbers game.
You’re inferring causation from numbers that don’t provide it. It’s just as likely atheists are less likely to be married because they choose not to be. Given that marriage has a heavily religious component to it (at least traditionally), that’s a perfectly plausible thesis.
No. And yes. No Religion (atheists) are the the most likely to be Single, Cohabitating at 22 percent. So we can observe that atheists are both less inclined to marry and others are less likely to be inclined to marry or cohabitate with them.
Yet somehow no one talks about Muslims or Jews having trouble finding spouses.
Those two groups are much more inclined towards marriage. If you can take it or leave it and you don’t want children, then you’re naturally much less inclined to bother. And also, Nones skew 61-39 male, which obviously complicates things for the marriage-minded.
Also, this (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/12/pew-survey-doubt-of-god-growing-quickly-among-millennials/).
Yes, this is the same reason Democrats win all elections…. The “youth” argument is reliably a terrible predictor of the future, for the obvious reason that people tend to change their views considerably as they age. As I mentioned previously, I was a None when I was your age. Young people are, by and large, astonishingly stupid and short-sighted. But if you survive youth, and most people will, there is a reasonable chance you’ll grow out of it.
The fasted growing belief demographic is categorized as “non-religious”. This group is comprised of atheists, agnostics and people who call themselves “spiritual but not religious.” In other words, people are rejecting organized religion.
Only because it is so small. From ARIS 2008: “[T]here are two retention rates to be calculated here: (1) What percentage of those raised as Nones remain Nones? And (2) What percentage of those raised
religious remain religious? The answers are somewhat surprising, but require explanation. Of those
who reported being Nones at 12 years of age, 59% were Nones at the time they participated in the
ARIS 2008. That means 41% of “raised Nones” joined a religion after the age of 12. Interestingly
41% is the national average for switching for all religious groups. In contrast, among those reporting
a religious identity at 12 years of age, 12% were Nones at the time of their participation in ARIS
2008. The religious retain 88% of those raised religious. This would seem to favor the religious. But
we also know that the Nones are growing at the expense of the religious. This is due to the relative
sizes of these populations in absolute numbers.
@Ms. J #1165:
“Aw, jeez Obs, I’m sorry that she went so young. I lost my mom in her late 80s last year, and my dad in his early 90s a few years ago. At least, when they pass at a good old age, it seems more just.”
O: Thank you. I would be a boldfaced liar if I said that I didn’t miss them, quite a bit; but I have many fond memories of them in my life. They did the best they could to raise me and my siblings, and to be frank, they did a pretty darn good job; five kids, none of them a burden on a society, but instead a net positive. All of us are taxpayers; several of us are employers. Three of us got married and managed to stay that way.
Given where I come from in the Great American Skin Game, that’s not merely an achievement; its damn near a miracle these days.
O.
@Shadow
Wow, your sister dodged a bullet. His demanding a prenup was the icing on the cake. I hope she learned her lesson. I can’t resist pointing out that by the standards of some here, he would be considered a real “winner” because of his success in getting with women.
@Ms. Walsh #1197:
“I mean relative to the comments. Many who commented knew a couple with around a 10 year age difference (OTC knew several). That’s 1 in 14. I personally could list hundreds of couples that I know well enough to distinguish an age difference. Assuming 7%, and that I “know” 500 couples, that’s 35 couples with a big age gap, which sounds like a lot, but really isn’t as a percentage.”
O: Fair enough.
“All UMC and white.”
O: OK. You know, one *could* make a case for race/SES differences here, although I have no idea how that would actually shake itself out, if any.
“Hard to say, as I know the second wives. Based on the age of the kids (30+ in general) I would guess they were close in age.”
O: OK. I recally reading some data that a certain blogger who’s name begins with the letter “D” posted on his site courtesy of AARP, that Men who were divorced/widowed, when remarried, had wives where even younger than the first. This is consistent with findings along these lines in the works of Buss – and our own Ted (if he’s reading this, my deepest congrats on getting back on that horse! I wish you and Mrs. Ted many, many years of wedded bliss!) is indeed living proof: his first wife was five years his junior; his second, as I recall, some eight years his junior.
“I actually don’t see any reason for debate here. Vox’s analysis bringing the number to 10% is reasonable. I’m not sure what you think the real percentage is, but I don’t really care what it is, to be honest. People should marry who they want to marry. Most women don’t go for much older guys, some do, for a variety of reasons.”
O: Well, my position is very much in alignment with VD, and for the record, I’m not hardcharging on the issue here; just noting all the pushback on the part of certain of your lady commenters, where as you said, there really is no debate. No one’s trying to push the idea onto any of them. Moreover, I reject the notion some of them have attempted to foist onto the rest of us, that “money” was the prime motivator in such pairings on the part of the ladies involved; I can assure any of them that was NOT the case for the many cases I was aware of. Indeed, in the vast majority of cases, the guys involved only start to seriously get paid, AFTER they married, not before. Which is consistent with the conventional wisdom in that regard, irrespective of the age of the bride and groom.
O.
“That means 41% of “raised Nones” joined a religion after the age of 12. ”
That would explain why Buddhism is the fastest growing religion.
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