Women Need Men

Women today don’t understand femininity very well. It’s a dirty secret from the patriarchal past, and it’s been mostly successfully scrubbed from our consciousness by  gender-bending feminists. This loss is mourned by men, who desperately seek feminine women. At the same time, the denial of biological sex differences has affected them as well, as male behavior and nature is routinely shamed in our culture. The end result of this disastrous social experiment is a masculinized female population and a feminized male population. This is not conducive to happy mating.

Recently, reader Sai expressed her bafflement at what femininity is supposed to look like:

When I spent way too long Googling “how do girls act”/”what are girls like” I knew I had a problem.

I don’t want to completely morph into a touchy-feely mother to all living things. I’m honestly still not sure what I’ll gain from this -the visual component is seriously lacking, which is why I saw no point in being that sort of girl -or even where to start. But I am curious, and I often see gals who don’t like how the sexes currently interact being exhorted to act more girly.

Susan Brownmiller, in her 1984 book Femininity, described it as “whimsy, unpredicability, emotional patterns of thinking and behavior, including tearful expressions of sentiment and fear.” She noted that all of these behaviors lie “outside the established route to success.”

Laura Kipnis wrote in Slate that “Femininity is a system that tries to secure advantages for women, primarily by enhancing their sexual attractiveness to men. It also shores up masculinity through displays of feminine helplessness or deference. But femininity depends on a sense of female inadequacy to perpetuate itself.”

This is what the French call “la difference.” What’s important to note is that both sexes are happiest when women are feminine and men are masculine. Previously, I’ve attempted to describe femininity in all its aspects, but today I want to focus on just one part of it – perhaps the most important part. It has nothing to do with appearance, tone of voice, or mannerisms. We need to shift our way of thinking to acknowledge sex differences, and how the sexes, though different, can complement one another perfectly when we’re honest about the different wants and needs of men and women. In my opinion, this complementarity is a key part of successful relationships and, ultimately, marriage. 

Principle #1

Women need men, and men need to be needed.

This is heresy to feminists. In that orthodoxy, the most shameful thing a woman can do is need or become dependent on a man. However, in the ancestral period women could not survive without men. Men provided food, shelter and protection, as well as strategic alliances and genes for offspring. Women were attracted to men who could provide these things, and sought qualities in mates that signaled the ability to accumulate resources and the temperament to share them. 

Today, women don’t really need men to provide food and shelter. In large cities, 20-something women make 120% of what their male peers earn. This trend will continue as women represent 60% of college graduates in this country, even though many of those women will not enter high-paying professions. 

We do still need men to protect us, however. Despite an increased number of females in the police force and military, there’s a reason why Navy SEALS are male, why men do most of the heavy lifting and building of construction projects, and why men perform the most dangerous jobs in our economy. 

Taking it to the personal level, what woman does not love being enveloped by strong male arms in a protective embrace? I rely on my husband to be stoic, strong and efficient in all manner of mini domestic crises. When there’s a hurricane coming, a bat in the house, or strange sounds in the night, he embraces the risk. He mans the grill. He is a rock during the emotional upheavals that occur in all families. He provides for our family.

Not surprisingly, when he acts out his male role in this way, I feel attracted to him. I communicate appreciation, my comfort in depending on him, and express physical affection. Both parties are rewarded, both win. That can’t happen if I refuse to need a man, or refuse to accomodate his need to be needed. 

Principle #2

Women want to nurture, and men want to be nurtured.

This too is heresy to feminists, as it supposes that women live to serve men. In fact, women serve male needs for nurturance in the same way that men serve female needs for provisioning. Men and women are happiest when we gladly give and receive what the other has to offer. 

If men evolved to provide shelter and food, then women evolved to make that shelter and food experience as pleasing and comfortable as possible. (If you don’t want to cook for a man, you’re missing a great opportunity to nurture your partner and your relationship.) Of course, there are many other ways to do this as well. Caring about a man’s feelings, demonstrating loyalty, and expressing love and desire are all excellent ways to nurture a man. 

Female nurturance does not preclude male nurturance, nor does needing a man mean he won’t need you back. Just the opposite is true. When we need and nurture our partners, we become stronger, and we invite them to need and nurture us back.

Long live sex differences.

Needing and nurturing, embraced by women, and freely welcomed by men. That’s one thing we can all do right now to improve our dysfunctional SMP.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    This post really resonated with me.

    Question is, since you can’t put that genie back in the bottle, how do you proceed forward?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Question is, since you can’t put that genie back in the bottle, how do you proceed forward?

      One enlightened woman at a time. We don’t need to return to pre-feminism. I wrote directly about the way my own marriage functions right now. And I would call it an egalitarian marriage, for the record.

  • Passer_By

    Love the cartoon. Where did you get it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Love the cartoon. Where did you get it?

      Found it in Google images.

      If you want to swipe it, just right click and save it.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I have mixed feelings with this post. Frankly, I think the sex differences exist on a spectrum. There are plenty of relatively “masculine” women that many of us men find attractive and prefer.

    Basically, you’re correct that women need men and men need women, and that women want to nurture and men want to be nurtured. But the key point is that as you stated, “Female nurturance does not preclude male nurturance, nor does needing a man mean he won’t need you back. Just the opposite is true. When we need and nurture our partners, we become stronger, and we invite them to need and nurture us back.”

    The bottom line is that when men we complain about “unfeminine” women, many of us are complaining about the “I don’t need a man” attitude, and the “nurturing is for slaves” attitude that women hold. But when you think about it, feminism has blinded us by making these seem like stereotypical feminine attributes. Needing the opposite sex and wanting to nurture your partner really is something that all human beings should do, regardless of their gender.

    Ironically, attempts to promote MGTOW notwithstanding, most men need women, and most men are nurturing to their partners (or unrequited love interests). I don’t think this was any different before feminism.

  • Starviolet

    I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Starviolet

      I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.

      …Men are great at protecting and providing, but now that the world is not such a dangerous place and women can support themselves a lot of women want men to meet more of their emotional needs. Men aren’t made for and generally aren’t great at that and then women get dissatisfied and wonder why they are bothering. Meanwhile the things that men need from women haven’t changed. Kind of unfair.

      I want to address this directly.

      First, in discussing women’s need for men I am referring to a hardwired biological instinct. Feminism did not, and could not, alter that. I do acknowledge in the post that women increasingly do not rely on men for financial support, but of course we have many other needs.

      I have no problem with your saying women want men rather than need them, but just as the fish in the cartoon is dying to ride that bike, so too women want men very much. The number of young heterosexual women who dispense with men altogether is miniscule and will always be so.

      Regarding men’s ability to meet women’s emotional needs, I would observe two things:

      1. Women expect way too much of men. They are responsible for their own happiness and personal growth.

      2. Men fall in love sooner and more deeply than women do. They rely on women for emotional intimacy more than women rely on them.

      As a woman, have many outlets for emotional intimacy, including friends, family, my children and my husband. But my husband is by far the most important source, and has been a sensitive and empathic partner for 30 years.

      I will say that if a woman wants a man to be in tune emotionally, she should avoid very dominant males, who generally have lower EQ than other males.

  • INTJ

    I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.

    I think I’m going to shoot myself.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    True.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.

    I think I’m going to shoot myself.

    This is the part of the problem i tried to mention with the genie being out. Women who don’t depend on a man and can discard him at a whim because the state will give them money or give them government jobs to support themselves will not view men as anything but an accessory to add like a a gucci coach or handbag.

    Until the baby rabies kick in.

    But just as a lifetime of learning to not depend on (directly) a man and treat them as utility can’t be undone in a day, neither will it be undone the lifetime of being ignored or passed over for decades and choosing to go ones own way and ignore the system and the gnashing of teeth to man up.

    It will absolutely be ‘one at a time’ from the ground up. But a whole generation has been lost, with many unseen consequences yet to come.

  • Giraffe

    I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.

    Very true. But this situation is transient because the hooligans that result from most single parent households are the very barbarians that will destroy this society. If it lasts long enough for them to grow up.

    The genie is going back into the bottle. The coming financial apocalypse will end the government’s taking over the role as daddy and husband. Men are going to want something in return if they assume the role.

  • Abbot

    Yes, women do need men. But now its is implied that men must accept how women have changed before the need is dished out. The need has been commodified and men will pander…but only up to a point. For example, a man will forfeit a woman’s desire for slut acceptance and be quite alright with her not delivering a need for marriage

  • Nathan S.

    “Today, women don’t really need men to provide food and shelter. In large cities, 20-something women make 120% of what their male peers earn.”

    “I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.”

    I think both of these statements miss the basic function of male-female relationships for practically all of human history: efficient reproduction and child-rearing. The current state of technology and the economy enables single women to earn money as easily as single men, but that dynamic changes dramatically when you look at having children. Child-bearing is an enormous bio-economic disadvantage for women, and that disadvantage is further amplified by the female desire to spend time with her children.

    The only way that single mothers are able to continue working anywhere close to on par with single men is through state subsidization (i.e. husband replacement): mandatory maternity leave, welfare, food stamps, government sponsored daycare, etc.

    So it’s not that women don’t need men to provide anymore–at least to the extent that women are interested in children, as most are–it’s that the government is stealing or prohibiting male bargaining power through taxation or regulation and substituting itself in that role. The MGTOW movement serves a few roles, but one of them is as the natural response of men who are waking up to this injustice and reacting by rejecting the life-sucking, soul-crushing work required to make enormous amounts of money to become an attractive mate, and living more simply and cheaply. Not that all MGTOWs live on the cheap, but a great example of this is the soushoku danshi phenomenon in Japan.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    What Ransom saw at that moment was the real meaning of gender.

    Everyone must sometimes have wondered why in nearly all tongues certain inanimate objects are masculine and others feminine. What is masculine about a mountain or feminine about certain trees? Ransom has cured me of believing that this is a purely morphological phenomenon, depending on the form of the word.

    Still less is gender an imaginative extension of sex. Our ancestors did not make mountains masculine because they projected male characteristics into them. The real process is the reverse. Gender is a reality, and a more fundamental reality than sex. Sex is, in fact, merely the organic adaptation to organic life of a fundamental polarity which divides all created beings.

    Female sex is simply one of the things that have feminine gender; there are many others, and Masculine and Feminine meet us on planes of reality where male and female would be simply meaningless. Masculine is not attenuated male, nor feminine attenuated female. On the contrary, the male and female of organic creatures are rather faint and blurred reflections of masculine and feminine. Their reproductive functions, their differences in strength and size, partly exhibit, but partly also confuse and misrepresent, the real polarity.

    CS Lewis Perelandra

    Mark me down as a gender essentialist, (and a Platonist to boot, if you like). I for one am tired beyond reason of trying to stretch to include more and more distant outliers; non-cis-women, butch sissyboys, lesbians in male bodies, what have you. I’m sorry you’re so fvcked up, but it isn’t my fault.

  • Abbot

    “state subsidization (i.e. husband replacement)”

    Its merely a dependency shift that takes away a man’s financial agency and his ability to directly influence the next generation

  • Just1X

    “I’m sorry you’re so fvcked up, but it isn’t my fault.”

    that’s the basic issue I think. Men (MRAs, MGTOW, PUAs) are getting tired of the endless wave of blame for every single thing wrong with society; men bad, women good – we get the frigging message.

    We just don’t believe that BS any more, because feminists have pushed it too far, they just wouldn’t / couldn’t stop the female-victim bus when it stopped being true (decades ago).

    The level of lies about some fabled ‘patriarchy’ / ‘rape culture’ that exists and screws all women over, but you just can’t show any evidence of it…it just isn’t credible any more. Lies about women earning 77 cents on the dollar were debunked decades ago, but we still hear that carp. Same as 1 in 4 women being raped – BS.

    And the internet is passing the red-pill round at an unprecedented rate. Add in the economy and the party is over radfems. Let’s get back to men and women being what they are (and there are masculine women and feminine men – that’s fine, just be yourself) enough with the BS.

    That’s what MGTOW (c.f. soushoku danshi) is; do what you want society, but count me out as far as I can make possible. I don’t care about ‘man up’ and ‘male duties’ or funding BS with my taxes…enough.

    It’s spreading, as are MRA memes (and I don’t care if you believe me, check out AVFM (AVoiceForMen) then (a year ago at most) and now for the change in optimisim, tone and reports on reality). E.g. Vladek Filler’s prosecuter being up for unprofessional behaviour for allegations of persecuting him for D.V. beyond all the evidence and reality, is a fine example. The wife has documented mental issues, he was given custody of the children, and still Mary Kellett is trying to lock him up.

    Great post aimed at freeing men and women from feminist defined roles and lies Susan (IMHO).

  • Zach

    This “women don’t need men” movement is taking us in a very, very dangerous place. Because the logical response for men is then to walk away from any out-of-wedlock or unwanted kids. If women claim they don’t need us to raise kids, why invest the time and effort to do so? It’s tit for tat. Look at the statistics, however, and it becomes clear that single moms aren’t exactly crushing it these days.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @ Starviolet:

    “I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.”

    If you don’t need a man . . . don’t worry. You won’t get one.

    That’s the truth. My MIL is a hypercompetent woman, a success in business and her social life . . . and she’s utterly incapable of having a functioning heterosexual relationship because her hypercompetence and “I don’t need a man!” attitude destroy every relationship she’s ever been in.

    Which means that no matter how much she wants a man, she can’t have one because she doesn’t need one. And she’d be mortified if she actually needed one.

    Also, I think it’s HY-sterical that feminism is so quick to abandon masculinity and femininity, when the very economic process that makes feminism even possible — industrialization — was created by and is sustained by men. Women CANNOT sustain the world without us — everything from taxes to tampon delivery requires the assistance of men, or civilization falls back to the Agricultural Age.

    Y’know . . . where we got the Patriarchy?

    You can’t put the genie back in the bottle, true. But you can loudly and clearly insist that you won’t knock the genie up and let her emotionally abuse you. If American women don’t need men, then the logical answer (for men) is to not marry them in preference for bachelorhood or foreign brides. When the whole world is your feminine oyster, why the hell would you settle for what an American corporate drone has to offer . . . when there are millions of Latin and Asian girls (not to mention East Europeans) who are happy to put up with the tepid sexual demands of American men as the price for enjoying American civilization and benefits.

    Let the feminist spinsters spin themselves into obscurity — strong, independent, and alone.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I found a few passages in Hannah Rosin’s new book that cover themes that are no doubt familiar to HUS readers:

    “These days, the problem in the mating market is caused not by women’s eternal frailty but by their new dominance. In a world where women are better educated than men and outearning them in their twenties, dating becomes complicated. Men are divided into what the college girls call the players (a smaller group) and the losers (a much larger group), and the women are left fighting for small spoils. The players are in high demand and hard to pin down. The losers are not all that enticing…

    “…Now women no longer need men for financial security and social influence. They can achieve those things by themselves. So they have no urgent incentive to keep the price of sex high. The result is that sex, by the terms of sexual economics, is cheap, bargain-basement cheap, and a lot more people can have it…

    “…(re: Guttentag-Secord) In societies with more women, men have a candy-store attitude. They want the Twizzlers and the Jujubes. They become promiscuous, and can’t be relied on to settle down…when sex is cheap, something funny happens to men. More of them turn into what Mark Regnerus calls ‘free agents.’ They sleep with as many women as possible, essentially because they can. They become allergic to monogamy. ‘What motivation exists for men to be anything besides the stereotypic ”take what you can get” kind of man?’ asks Regnerus in ‘Premarital Sex in America.’ ‘Not a lot.’

    “…Katie, one of the interviewees in Regnerus’s book, summarizes her experience in the new marketplace thus: ‘I felt like I was dating his dick.’”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      Those are great excerpts. I need to read that book asap.

  • Just1X

    The feminists keep spinning that men are scared of strong (confrontational) women, I don’t think that ‘we’ are, ‘we’ just don’t find them attractive on the whole.

    I like feminine women, but not weak ones. Ball-busters are not attractive at all to me, who needs a competition at home? especially as I don’t think that they actually want to win. What a pain in the arse, pointless, waste of time and effort – do they seriously not understand that? or is it just more convenient to fluff the hamster of women, than face the truth; men are not all the same, but they won’t be told what they want by others…they want what they want; low-N, loving, honest women. So, not ball-busting, confrontational, masculine women (on the whole) YMMV – and I have zero problem with that, just don’t lie to women about tricking men into wanting hi-N butch women – because we don’t…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      Ball-busters are not attractive at all to me, who needs a competition at home? especially as I don’t think that they actually want to win.

      True, it’s all shit testing. To win is to lose.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    Remember bbsezmore’s femininity challenge?

    The links can be found here:

    https://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/woman-up-re-visited/

  • INTJ

    @ Just1X

    Exactly. We aren’t scared of strong women. We just don’t like hyperaggressive women (who would be alpha males if they had a y chromosome).

    Most beta males I know would be happy with someone of equal confidence and niceness to themselves…

  • Starviolet

    @ Ian ironwood

    I’ve been married for a while now. I don’t think that men can sustain the world without women either, but I was speaking about men and women on an individual level.

    Men are great at protecting and providing, but now that the world is not such a dangerous place and women can support themselves a lot of women want men to meet more of their emotional needs. Men aren’t made for and generally aren’t great at that and then women get dissatisfied and wonder why they are bothering. Meanwhile the things that men need from women haven’t changed. Kind of unfair.

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    I had a women tell me this:

    “Women want a man that is better than them. Stronger, honorable,with dominance and leadership. Some one we can look up too.

    “But so do men, in a complimentary way. Someone who is better than them. More cheerful, kinder, patient,loyal,graceful,nurturing, spiritual/religious.”

    Doesn’t sound like too bad of a definition.

  • Just1X

    @INTJ
    amen brother, it’s all good as long as the two individuals want what they have. Do what you want, just don’t lie to people about what they should want, or what the other will put up with – that’s what annoys me, deceiving people into things that they don’t want, or won’t get.

  • HerrKaiser

    “I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.”

    It is funny, I was having this exact conversation with friends about a week ago; I pointed out how ridiculous it is that we break-up political issues into segments when they are in fact deeply interconnected. The example I used was women’s “reproductive rights” and the welfare state. So much of the growth of the (direct) welfare state over the last forty years has been driven by single mothers and their progeny. I argued how can woman on one hand claim they have absolute control over their bodies and can have sex with whomever they chooses; whenever they choose; wherever they choose; and have unilateral right to decide whether or not to keep or abort the child; and still claim they have a right to a social safety net to ameliorate the consequences of their actions? This is not Saudi Arabia, in the West sex is controlled by woman and they can form a relationship with any willing man they chooses; that being the case should they not bear the consequence of their actions? It must be one or other, either woman have control of their body and bear all consequences of their decisions or we have an extreme patriarchy in which society cares for or forces the man in question to care for abandoned woman as the woman had no choice in the matter. There are so many people jumping on this “Man Up” movement, but no one gives women the simplest and most direct advice; chooses carefully and don’t have sex with douchebags. I’m not saying we need to start importing Saudi morality police, but we might want to at least look at their training manuals.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HerrKaiser

      There are so many people jumping on this “Man Up” movement, but no one gives women the simplest and most direct advice; chooses carefully and don’t have sex with douchebags.

      Would you be willing to amend that to “almost no one?”

      I loathe this man up and end of men stuff. I’m interesting in discussing why males are not thriving – this is a catastrophic problem which will only get worse. Why do people assume that a whole generation of males just got too lazy to go to college? Why are intelligent people not connecting the dots, which show a clear path from feminism to male decline? They wanted equity, and they got it long ago. When are we going to admit they are dangerously close to achieving a malignant form of female supremacy?

  • Just1X

    @Starviolet

    maybe if taxes weren’t a net transfer of cash from men to women
    maybe if artificial quotas weren’t enforced on sex / race / whatever
    maybe if the state hired on merit not on P.R. but on ability to do the job
    maybe if the state concentrated on productive jobs, not just ‘organisational’ ‘paper pushing’ non-jobs

    maybe then independence from worthless men that is truly earned will not be quite so easily achieved as you seem to think

    When the quantitative easing is halted, and budgets are balanced…what happens then?

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    So reading about your red-pill overdose and your question about being girly, I don’t think you have to worry much.

    You’re one of those girls who truly is “just one of the guys”. But the important thing is that you empathize with guys and don’t have the entitled “me first” attitude that feminists with faux confidence do.

    I suggest you hang out in academically nerdy circles with high male-female ratios. Try video-gaming, D&D, public science lectures, etc. Obviously, looks are a factor in ease of getting a relationship, but they aren’t nearly as big a deal for nerdy guys. Keep a healthy weight (you don’t have to starve yourself model-thin, but exercise and eat healthy foods to keep from being overweight), and maybe sometimes wear a very mild perfume so you seem more feminine. Oh and most nerds when they see a fellow nerd girl think “there’s a dozen other guys here and she’s the only girl, so what are the chances she’s going to like me in particular?” and not bother telling her they like her. So it’s important that you show a bit of interest in a particular guy whom you like (as simple as spending more time with him than others). Some guys are still numbskulls and won’t know you’re interested in them until you hit them on the head with a club and drag them back to your cave, but most will take the hint and try telling you if they’re also interested.

  • Jonny

    I will not accept the feminist explanation of feminity. It is half the equation and not the reality.

    Females is both helplessness and strength. Men cannot be there all the time to help and protect them. When I’m at work, I cannot do anything to help her. Same with her, she cannot nurture me when she is at work or caring for the kids. You can’t be there all the time. You have to use all available resources.

    The problem with feminism is the denial of helplessness. You have to want to divide and conquer. You have to put yourself out there 100%. The 50-50 division of labor isn’t true. The best thing is the realize that women and men are better at things based on who they are.

    Women find men’s needs to be annoying. Men are to be tolerated. Women are not nurturing especially when they want the men to nurture them via pampering. Men are not spa masseurs. Since women will not fulfill their roles as men prefer, men are unable return the favor. Men are not selfless. They need validation to give validation.

    Women are unhappy since their expectations are beyond anything that men can fulfill.

  • CanadianF

    But if you do those things on this list too early, you’re perceived as a stage 5 clinger.

    So what is it? That goes for the same post you wrote earlier: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/09/relationshipstrategies/25-politically-incorrect-but-effective-ways-to-make-him-your-boyfriend/

    I’m confused with these rules, roles and tips. I find men confusing, and the dating scene completely strange.

    Quite frankly, I’m tired with it all and I’m not even 25 yet.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Canadian F

      But if you do those things on this list too early, you’re perceived as a stage 5 clinger.

      This is a risk, and it is important to escalate in step with the man. You can’t go hog wild with devotion after two dates. However, I would also like to point out that a man who is wary of signs of attachment – the very men who are quick to use the term Stage 5 Clinger – is a man you don’t want to waste time on. If a guy recoils when you demonstrate affection, that feels terrible but it’s a feature rather than a bug.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @CanadianF

      Quite frankly, I’m tired with it all and I’m not even 25 yet.

      You’re not alone. I would say most young people I talk to, both men and women are fatigued and discouraged by the whole scene. Ultimately, that leads to inertia – which is why we’ve got way too few good relationships (with good sex) happening.

  • Just1X

    @Sai – INTJ is speaking sense imho…and keep it positive…and use Susan’s list form the older post…it’s all good

  • Just1X

    @CanadianF
    actually most men who read the list thought that it was good (for women). Desperation is not good (as you say). There’s a balance to be struck, but trust the list…

    best of luck

  • Sassy6519

    I still struggle with being “feminine”, but I have been making a genuine effort to grow in that area.

    One of the scariest moments for me recently was being emotionally vulnerable with the man I’ve been dating. I literally felt nauseous and broke out in a cold sweat before doing so. Being vulnerable around a man felt so unnatural to me. I instinctively wanted to keep my guard up around him, but I decided to show him the softer side of myself. Afterwards, I could tell that he appreciated seeing that side of me, and I sincerely believe that it strengthened our bond.

    It’s been much harder for me to embrace my feminine side than I thought it would be.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Contra to what many others profess, I do think there’s plenty of high-quality realist women out there, the problem is they’re all in long-term relationships and rarely leave them. I know, because they’re the women with confidence and I flirt with them all the time only to become crestfallen when they reveal their status or make an awkward exit when they realize what’s going on. Of course, sometimes women lie about their status to get rid of a suitor but experience says they’re usually honest (or more so when I’ve thought women have lied to be in the past, they generally haven’t).

  • HerrKaiser

    Just X1,

    You still seem to want a welfare state in which the government is the majority (or at least a significant) employer in the country. What is wrong with the private sector? It is true that a majority of the jobs woman have found to free themselves of the need for male support are often in the public sector (or linked to it like health care). If we look at first world countries with healthy economies (and at this point there are very few) where the bulk of employment is in the private sector and they have hung on to their manufacturing base, we see that family dynamics have largely remained traditional and female labor force participants is quite low.

  • HerrKaiser

    Point taken Susan; but the decline in male achievement can all be explained by time preference. The middle class outlook has long been under attack in the West and Americans generally have low time preferences; couples those factors with the fact that men will do whatever it is that seem to attract woman and our current predicament becomes inevitable.
    Men think back to your 14 year old self and answer the question; if you were given the choice between A or B which would have you chosen?

    A. You become a douchebag; cover your body in tattoos, wear diamond studs or stretch your ear lobes out to size of a saucer plate; spend all of your time socializing, going to parties, and drinking and using recreational drugs. In exchange, for the next twenty years you will be able to unlimited access to cheap and easy sex with attractive woman. Some woman will do all the work of chasing you; they may even support you, give you money, and pay your bills. However, at the end of those twenty years, you will have a dead-end job living pay check to pay check and possibly some child support payment to make. By the time you are forty, woman will no longer be interested in you, you will have no career options, and you will be lucking to get a “high N woman” with multiple children (possibly by multiple fathers).

    B. You become “clean cut”, you don’t get tattoos or piercing, you focus on academics and personal achievement. For the next twenty years you will be ignored by your peers; you will not attend the “cool” socials events, woman will look pass you, and when a woman notices you, she will be on the lower end of the attractiveness spectrum. However, at the end of twenty years with your career success and income generation, you will have unlimited access to woman. Woman, particular those who have been burned by bad boys, will chase you. You will be able to date any woman and as many woman you please, to select from a wide range of woman, and have the relationship all on your terms. Your status and ability will not start to fade until you hit your early 60s.

  • Thin-Skinned

    I don’t know how a fish needs a bicycle, but I really can’t imagine how a bicycle could need another bicycle.

    By mimicking the objects of their attraction, the species flourising in modern western civilization, the assertive and aggressive girls and the sweet and sensitive boys have doomed themselves to frustration.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Thin-Skinned

      I don’t know how a fish needs a bicycle, but I really can’t imagine how a bicycle could need another bicycle.

      Best line in the thread! Onto more serious matters:

      Too many horror stories fueling my daily two minutes hate have been poisoning my mind and heart. I’m well on my way to becoming one of those resigned fellas going his own way. Like so many spheres of the leading political oriented media that have become so divisive, these MRA and PUA folks thrive by feeding our appetite for indignation.

      You nailed it here, I’m afraid. I’ve never seen a better example of “misery loves company.” In fact, people who seem happy or contented in their lives are often treated very harshly. I think your idea to quit cold turkey is excellent. Personally, I don’t like spending time anywhere that brings me down. I confess that is even true for me at my own blog sometimes!

      I’ve had readers write to me in the past and say that HUS was really bumming them out. The last thing I was to do is make people feel more hopeless and depressed. On the other hand, there is pain in growth, and I do see a lot of positive change occur for people who are willing to put in the work.

  • http://theprivateman.wordpress.com The Private Man

    “It’s been much harder for me to embrace my feminine side than I thought it would be.”

    It’s because you’ve been taught that femininity is weak and should be avoided.

    There’s a Red Pill for men to unplug from the matrix. Perhaps women need their own type of pill. Pink pill? Oh, that’s too easy.

  • INTJ

    @ CanadianF

    But if you do those things on this list too early, you’re perceived as a stage 5 clinger.

    So what is it? That goes for the same post you wrote earlier: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/09/relationshipstrategies/25-politically-incorrect-but-effective-ways-to-make-him-your-boyfriend/

    It’s a valid concern. The important thing is to ramp up the attention you show to the guy slowly, but to act inviting in the meantime. Show the guy that you like him and are open to a good relationship with him, but give him space so he doesn’t feel like things are moving too quickly.

    I’m confused with these rules, roles and tips. I find men confusing, and the dating scene completely strange.

    Quite frankly, I’m tired with it all and I’m not even 25 yet.

    :( That’s the tragedy of modern relationships. Women find men confusing and men find women confusing and all the rules, roles, and tips make people feel like they’re walking tightropes.

    But I’m 21, have barely started looking for a relationship, and am already tired with it all. ;)

  • Thin-Skinned

    Mrs. Walsh,

    Unfortunately I’ve become addicted to the darkness that permeates a peculiar ghetto of the internet with which I’m sure you’re familiar.

    Too many horror stories fueling my daily two minutes hate have been poisoning my mind and heart. I’m well on my way to becoming one of those resigned fellas going his own way. Like so many spheres of the leading political oriented media that have become so divisive, these MRA and PUA folks thrive by feeding our appetite for indignation. Doubtlessly the more scandalous page-view fixated feminist opinion leaders are doing the same kind of work but just in their own segment of the outrage-provocation media complex. Probably I should just withdraw cold turkey.
    But how can I replace my insatiable appetite for outrage and hate with something more constructive and humane; faith, hope and love perhaps?

    Sure there are plenty of dangerous cold-hearted carousel-riding monsters out there, but how do I keep at the center of my mind that there are also some poor sweet things who might just be lonely and waiting by their telephones.

    I really like the hopeful spirit of your message in general. Maybe you have a handy reading list to keep our sad little lonely hearts warm in this wicked cold modern world of ours?

    (Sorry if this is not entirely germane to today’s post)

  • Abbot

    “Men are divided into what the college girls call the players (a smaller group) and the losers (a much larger group) ”

    The harem theory is now fact

  • Sai

    @Susan Walsh
    The history person in me likes this post, because it’s true.
    If women are earning 120% of what men earn, is this the new ’77 cents-for-each-dollar’ and if it is how can we help fix things for men?

    @INTJ
    Ironically, I used to dream about meeting guys at conventions… Now, men! The good news for you is that you can meet gorgeous girls at these events. Lots of middle- and high-schoolers are here, but so are some college students and older. Nobody’s been anything but kind as far as I’ve seen/experienced so I don’t think you’ll get the same nasty attitude you encounter in other places. (Probably a handful of witches in there someplace though.)

    I know I keep saying thanks, but I mean it. I appreciate your input. I’ll just try to work on being more nurturing-

    Cooking? Yeah, food rules!
    Sex? Yes! With only him? I’ve been told doing otherwise messes up my brain.
    The deeper, warmer, more serene/charming parts: …well, there are renovations, time-table changes, please stay on the line -*ahem* I am and will always be your wife. Have another cookie.
    (that’s how I know it’s time to sleep)

    @Thin-Skinned
    I had my own manosphere panic attack yesterday. I was told to just step away for a little while and I’d feel OK again.

  • Just1X

    @HerrKaiser
    death to big government, if that answers your question…

  • Abbot

    “Woman, particular those who have been burned by bad boys, will chase you”

    Sounds fun but Mr B should not commit to any bad boy burned bed banger and when the time is right experiment with his passport

  • Just1X

    @Thin-skinned
    “But how can I replace my insatiable appetite for outrage and hate with something more constructive and humane; faith, hope and love perhaps?”

    stick around here and only look elsewhere when you’re in a good state of mind. it’s what I did and do (FWIW) – welcome, it is different here.

  • Plain Jane

    “Susan Brownmiller, in her 1984 book Femininity, described it as “whimsy, unpredicability, emotional patterns of thinking and behavior, including tearful expressions of sentiment and fear.” She noted that all of these behaviors lie “outside the established route to success.”

    I disagree.

    Some of you must’ve heard of the great ancient philosophical text The Bhagavad Gita. In it the god Krishna (representing the all expansive brahman or sum total and source of existence all existence, in other words, the Alpha and Omega) says;

    “Of feminine attributes I am fame, beauty, fine speech, memory, intelligence, fortitude and forgiveness.”

    BG 10.34

    In that tradition this is considered “femininity”.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Here are the pics of Hope’s and hubby’s Aidan, so cute. :)
    http://www.rosehope.com/welcome-baby-aidan/

  • HerrKaiser

    @JustX1
    From an employment stand point, the expansion of big government (and by extension government jobs) has been used as a stop gap measure to provide jobs to persons dislocated after the loss of America’s industrial base (circa 1979). The greatest increase on a state and local level has been in the number of teachers (jobs going to women) and police/ fire fighter (largely going to white men). In fact, in California the cost of teacher’s salaries alone accounts for roughly 31% of the state budget and the pension cost of retired police and firefighters has been the cause of a number of municipal bankruptcies. In San Bernardino, which just filed bankruptcy, 75% (of which 80% was compensation) of the general fund went to the police and fire departments. On the federal level, the majority of newly created government jobs have been in the health care sector via Medicaid and Medicare (going to women), which is the single largest item in the federal budget; but we must not discount all those men working for defense contractors.

    http://www.city-journal.org/2012/cjc0718jr.html
    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

  • Plain Jane

    Yes, women and men need each other but I think men need women more.

    I know I get my emotional needs met through a variety of ways when I’m not in a relationship with a man, but I’ve noticed men don’t get them met to the same extent women do through other avenues like family and friends.

    I think men get lonelier.

  • Eating cake

    “You become “clean cut”, you don’t get tattoos or piercing, you focus on academics and personal achievement. For the next twenty years you will be ignored by your peers; you will not attend the “cool” socials events, woman will look pass you, and when a woman notices you, she will be on the lower end of the attractiveness spectrum. However, at the end of twenty years with your career success and income generation, you will have unlimited access to woman. Woman, particular those who have been burned by bad boys, will chase you. You will be able to date any woman and as many woman you please, to select from a wide range of woman, and have the relationship all on your terms. Your status and ability will not start to fade until you hit your early 60s.”

    Technically I have just reached the point where this stage starts to work in my favor. But my female contemporaries are still chasing the thugs in search of their secret ex-con tattooed millionaire provider males who can get any woman but only want her.

    I observe and laugh.

  • Plain Jane

    “You become “clean cut”, you don’t get tattoos or piercing, you focus on academics and personal achievement. For the next twenty years you will be ignored by your peers; you will not attend the “cool” socials events, woman will look pass you, and when a woman notices you, she will be on the lower end of the attractiveness spectrum.”

    Why either/or?

    How about being tattoo free, academically focused AND hot?

    Focus on your academics but put aside some time daily for exercise. Eat right. Cut your hair, or grow it, in a style that frames and compliments your facial features. Dress attractively. Hang out, but at places that are good for you AND where healthy women hang – hello yoga studios!

    You can excel academically AND attract women this way. And you might just attract another academically excellent woman.

  • Plain Jane

    INTJ, “I think I’m going to shoot myself.”

    Again, I ask what is your issue exactly. As a South Asian American you have the best of both worlds – you can dabble in dating and if you never meet “the one”, you can fall back on arranged marriage, like the rest of us SA-As are doing. Its a win/win. Take advantage!

    According to marriage whisperer Hedy Schleifer, marriage isn’t about “needing” each other for material gain, but has a higher mission, hence if your wife doesn’t “need” your money or whatever, its ok;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDUgCC8F668&feature=plcp

  • Lamia

    @ Bob Wallace

    “Women want a man that is better than them. Stronger, honorable,with dominance and leadership. Some one we can look up too.

    “But so do men, in a complimentary way. Someone who is better than them. More cheerful, kinder, patient,loyal,graceful,nurturing, spiritual/religious.”

    I love that Bob. It rings very true to me.

    It’s always made me feel very sad when I hear people saying things about the ‘end of men’. I hate to think that men would hear those things and believe them. Please don’t. Women will always need men like a flower needs sunlight.. there is something deep and unwavering inside of us that yearns for the companionship of a man – their strength, their rationality, their protection, their invaluable way of seeing the world. Women who don’t appreciate men have a problem; life has made them fearful.

    On women sleeping around: I think women who continually give their bodies to many men have lost touch with their worth. They are unhappy, emotionally insecure.. searching for validation through sex. Many will deny it because they haven’t done the work on themselves to know why they do what they do. But you cannot get angry with these women for that .. they are damaging themselves first and foremost, even if they don’t realise. A lack of self-love is rife among young, modern women – its a reflection of our culture. And those women who are “ball-busting” and competitive = pure fear. They put up a front because they are so frightened of being vulnerable.

    This might not resonate with everyone, but I truly believe if we brought some spirit/sacredness back into sex.. if we saw it as a special exchange of energy, then no one would settle for the ‘junk food’ sex of the casual variety. It wouldn’t fulfil them. Its because culturally we have reduced sex to a mechanical thing, it’s been sucked dry of all its beauty and inspiration. The ancient cultures knew of the immense power of sex (it’s sacred, life-enhancing and also medicinal properties).

    Back on topic and in conclusion, both men and women need each other equally.

  • Samael

    @ Plain Jane

    If women don’t need men as much then why bother with relationships in the first place?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Samael

      If women don’t need men as much then why bother with relationships in the first place?

      We do need men as much. A nurturing female provides her man with emotional intimacy, but she gets it from other females as well as him. He provides for her in other ways – for example, he offers her protection and strength, but doesn’t really seek that from a female partner. If he needed to call in reinforcements, he would get it from other males.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @PJ
    “I think men get lonelier.”

    I would say the stats bear this out, but most of the young men I know have absolutely zero motivation to get into relationships. In contrast, the young women I know seem to talk extensively about guys they want to date, go on dates, etc.

    Most of the guys I knew at university also did not have boyfriends, but the girls searched high and low to find guys.

    For some reason, guys are not motivated at all to find girls.

    I honestly can’t blame them, though, most of the girls I know…ugh…

  • Plain Jane

    Canadian F:
    “I’m confused with these rules, roles and tips. I find men confusing, and the dating scene completely strange.

    Quite frankly, I’m tired with it all and I’m not even 25 yet.”

    Tell me about it! I teach yoga and meditation at a resort and once a month they have the local area singles meet there and its all I can do to keep from vomiting. I have to walk through the poolside bar area to get to my teaching space. Seriously, I don’t know how people do it, especially half-way intelligent people.

    Susan, I posted here the televised debate on whether or not men are finished. Did you watch it? Here it is again;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNINB0tyGI0

    My observation is that they are not finished, they are just not drinking the kool-aid to the extent their fathers or grandfathers did. As much as I criticize Americans I will say a very good trend I see is that they are becoming less materialistic. So what I think is happening is that men are defining themselves less by what they do and own, such as their jobs and what cars they drive. Hence you will see men less materially motivated and this may look like failing, but its not.

  • Eating cake

    Plain Jane: “Focus on your academics but put aside some time daily for exercise. Eat right. Cut your hair, or grow it, in a style that frames and compliments your facial features. Dress attractively. Hang out, but at places that are good for you AND where healthy women hang – hello yoga studios!”

    1. I practiced yoga and meditation for years. I’m clean-cut, polite, and respectful to women. I was generally regarded as an assumed pervert and avoided by women like the plague. Sorry, that’s just poor dating advice.

    2. Many women STILL prefer the thugs even over good-looking good guys. Thugs are exciting. Good guys simply can’t compete with the thrill.

  • Plain Jane

    Lamia, “This might not resonate with everyone, but I truly believe if we brought some spirit/sacredness back into sex.. if we saw it as a special exchange of energy, then no one would settle for the ‘junk food’ sex of the casual variety.”

    I suggested mandatory yoga, meditation and breathwork classes in schools and colleges. Add to that conscious loving classes. Imagine how our culture would excel if instead of “frat parties” co-eds held “meditation parties” or even “eye-gazing parties”.

  • Plain Jane

    Eating Cake, I have to ask, what do you look like? Are you handsome? Cute? At least easy on the eyes? Realistically. Because I see this complaint on manosphere blogs that “we are good guys and we did this or that and still women hate us” and then at some point they post their pix and truth be told, they are not good looking at all.

    Being nice, conscious, smart, etc is good, but in order for us to be attracted to you there must be a minimum level threshold of looks. Even PUAs will tell you that game cannot trump looks if the looks are below a certain threshold. This is why so much emphasis is put on telling men to get fit and put some effort in the looks deptartment.

    Also, if you have any sort of behavioral issues, even subtle, it will be a turn-off.

    On the other hand ALL the cute nice yoga guys I know (and I know A LOT) have no problem meeting women. In fact they are in high demand considering the female-male ratio in the yoga scene. But these men are at least a 6 in looks. Again, there’s that minimum threshold.

  • Lamia

    @PJ
    I suggested mandatory yoga, meditation and breathwork classes in schools and colleges. Add to that conscious loving classes. Imagine how our culture would excel if instead of “frat parties” co-eds held “meditation parties” or even “eye-gazing parties”.

    Amen.. throw in Tantra classes too.

  • Abbot

    “my female contemporaries are still chasing the thugs in search of their secret ex-con tattooed millionaire provider males who can get any woman but only want her.”

    “women who continually give their bodies to many men have lost touch with their worth. They are unhappy, emotionally insecure.. searching for validation through sex. Many will deny it because they haven’t done the work on themselves to know why they do what they do”

    Whats up with the parenting of girls in the US? Are they being raised by women who slept with many men and chased thugs? There is no other plausible explanation.

  • Plain Jane

    “Whats up with the parenting of girls in the US? Are they being raised by women who slept with many men and chased thugs? There is no other plausible explanation.”

    No, not all. Sometimes kids veer away from the values taught to them by their parents once the reach their teens or young adulthood. Parents can’t be blamed for everything.

  • Plain Jane

    Also, with all the complaints about gold diggers and women using men as walking ATMs, you should be glad that women don’t need you for that anymore. Now you can enter into a relationship based on other things than just what you can materially provide us. It enables more growth.

  • tito

    nice post, but i doubt it will sink in. they will collapse society before they realize. then these simple steps will have to become official rules, subject to some penalties. it is the only way they will learn. to bad it is this way.

  • Abbot

    ” veer away”

    To unprecedented levels of milking male ejaculate? Something clearly has snapped in the American female psyche. Its all good for men looking for fun with these women…but history has never seen the current intense lack of desire among men to commit to one. The flipped out have met the level headed.

  • Jim

    Women are living in a bubble. Their jobs are hinged in government. You need men more than you think. Problem for many of them, you won’t find that out til it’s too late. The next round of QE is going to inflate the money even more. Welcome to Weimar where the Fed is buying the trillion dollar deficits because women are voting for the liberal agenda. Thus in effect, sealing their own destruction.

    Your men are leaving the scene. Many bigger cities are operating with billion dollar plus deficits. The federal government is soon approaching a point where the interest on the debt will be a trillion dollars a year. That will never be resolved no matter how high taxes go up. The nation is bleeding off its wealth to sustain the mockery of Marxism where women not only play a huge part of it, but are also huge beneficiaries of it. And when that ship sinks, and it will, the women will go down with it.

  • Plain Jane

    “Your men are leaving the scene. Many bigger cities are operating with billion dollar plus deficits. The federal government is soon approaching a point where the interest on the debt will be a trillion dollars a year. That will never be resolved no matter how high taxes go up. The nation is bleeding off its wealth to sustain the mockery of Marxism where women not only play a huge part of it, but are also huge beneficiaries of it. And when that ship sinks, and it will, the women will go down with it.”

    It won’t sink. We’ll just start growing our own food again. Its already happening with permaculture, aquaponics, people turning their back and front (illegal in some places!) into organic gardens. Yes, slowly the artificial corporate and government constructs will dismantle, but we will handle it by returning to a simpler way of life.

  • Mike C

    Afterwards, I could tell that he appreciated seeing that side of me, and I sincerely believe that it strengthened our bond.

    It’s been much harder for me to embrace my feminine side than I thought it would be.

    Sassy,

    First off, congrats. Sounds like you two are off to a great start, and I hope it all goes well.

    Secondly, the more you embrace that feminine side, the more it will feel natural to you over time. I guarantee it. You may have some fits and starts, and you’ll have to calibrate but it really is possible to shift in either a more masculine or more feminine direction simply by repeating the desired behaviors over time. I’m speaking from personal experience here. You become what you do.

    Good luck.

  • Mike C

    In large cities, 20-something women make 120% of what their male peers earn. This trend will continue as women represent 60% of college graduates in this country, even though many of those women will not enter high-paying professions.

    Susan, I’m glad you pointed this out.

    Lies about women earning 77 cents on the dollar were debunked decades ago, but we still hear that carp.

    Just 1x, I’ve heard this complete bullshit twice now in the last week or so while watching television. I literally wanted to punch my television screen. The first time was some speaker at the Democratic convention, and then yesterday….I like to watch Piers Morgan (I think he is a great interviewer) but he had Donny Deutsch”Douchebag” subbing for him and they had some interview with women deal with Serena Williams and Suze Orman and he trotted out this bogus statistic like feeding red meat for them all to jump over. I had to change the channel because I was going to puke.

  • Mike C

    Women want to nurture, and men want to be nurtured.

    Regarding men wanting to be nurtured, this is a comment making the rounds in a variety of places. At least to me it is powerful and poignant.

    “We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

    We want to, so badly.

  • Carmen

    Ooh I love posts on femininity! Thanks for writing this Susan :)

    I must admit that when I first started reading about how guys want girls to be more feminine, I had no idea what they were talking about. So I started doing a little ‘research’ on the topic.

    If you’re a girl and want to know how to be more feminine, I’d say have a look at these websites:

    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/woman-up-re-visited/
    About a woman taking up the challenge to be more feminine.

    http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/detinennui32s-advice/
    Read the “to his daughter”, the “Ten Things Women Can Do Right Now to Improve Their Attractiveness” part and the comments.

    Bellita’s blog – especially the posts on the book Fascinating Womanhood.
    http://bloggingbellita.wordpress.com/
    Though I see her blog has now been marked private – I hope it will become public again!

    You can read the book Fascinating Womanhood online (for free) at openlibrary.org. The book is old-fashioned and in certain aspects definitely outdated, but it gives you a very clear idea of what a feminine woman is, and, more importantly, HOW to be a more feminine woman. There’s also an interesting blog on the book: http://thefascinatingwoman.blogspot.com/

    http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/woman-up-make-the-man-feel-desired/
    Especially the comments – especially those by tvmunson.

    http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/its-ok-to-please-your-man/
    Find Deti’s (detinennui32) comment – 10 commandments for women.

    And of course all the posts by Susan on femininity.

    I also found it helpful to watch old movies with feminine actresses. The end of Susan’s post “the essence of femininity” has a list of such actresses and movies.

  • v

    Susan, you neglected to mention that a man only wants to be needed by a woman who genuinely needs him. And a man only wants to be nurtured by a woman who genuinely wants to nurture him.

    There might be something here to the concept of ‘fake it ’till you make it.’

    Even so, there is little that is less rewarding to her man than a woman who feigns need or nurturing.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Eating Cake
    I don’t know how old you are, but (assuming you are in your late 20s or early 30s) as time passes those woman will give up the chase and think to “settle”; that is where you move in, these are what we call practice girls, don’t ever marry them. Plus, younger women judge older men by completely different standards.

    @ Plain Jane
    The more money you have the less looks you need; obviously it is good to be the total package, but there is only so many hours in a day, if you’re exercising or hanging out, you are not working, you are trading money for looks and socializing . As for attracting another academic, there are some problems with that idea. If they are both still in college, it is unlikely she will find him all that attractive unless she is very farsighted. On the other hand, once he has entered the working world and becomes a success, the academic achievements of a potential mate is of secondary importance, most important is her beauty and personality.

  • Carmen

    I’m lucky to have a mom who’s VERY feminine. She ALWAYS wears heels (even if she’s staying at home all day), feminine clothes and make up. She’s very nurturing, sweet and supportive of and ‘submissive’ to my dad – in the best possible sense of the word.

    Thanks to her, I’ve become someone who enjoys nurturing other people. When I lived in dorms during my freshers year at uni, I bought fresh fruit and vegetables for my housemates, cooked their dinners if they didn’t have the time to do so, made sure they’d make an appointment with a doctor when not feeling well, cut the hair guys’ hair, etc.

    I struggle with other aspects of femininity though. I’ve read somewhere that ‘girl game’ is Vulnerability Game. If feminism taught me anything, it’s not to be vulnerable. Like Sassy stated, it’s surprisingly hard to show weaknesses when you’ve always been taught not to – don’t cry, don’t show anyone when you’re hurt (emotionally), don’t show a guy how much you care for him. At university I meet new guys every week, but I don’t get a lot of dates because I’ve been taught the more you like a guy, the less interest you show. “Play hard to get, if he’s interested and worth it he’ll chase you”. Worst dating advice for girls ever.

    Next time I like a guy I’m going to have to be more vulnerable and actually show him that I’m interested. I have a feeling that that is going to be a challenge for me.

  • Höllenhund

    Arabs need donkeys. I very much doubt donkeys need to be needed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KmhEDWDO0

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Arabs need donkeys. I very much doubt donkeys need to be needed.

      I don’t understand this comment. Are you suggesting that I offered a piece of logic that whatever is needed, needs to be needed? That’s preposterous.

      In the case of men and women in relationships, it has been my experience that telling a man I need him, don’t know what I would do without him, etc. has been very gratifying to him. I believe that men do like having women depend on them, which gives them an opportunity to display strength, competence and leadership.

  • Höllenhund

    I loathe this man up and end of men stuff. I’m interesting in discussing why males are not thriving – this is a catastrophic problem which will only get worse. Why do people assume that a whole generation of males just got too lazy to go to college? Why are intelligent people not connecting the dots, which show a clear path from feminism to male decline?

    Was this question intended to be serious? The one and only purpose of the Man Up Campaign is to stifle and prevent any debate about feminism, by blaming all societal problems on men, in a rather predictable way I might add. Because to question feminism is to question women’s choices and decisions, and that’s a taboo. Of course nobody is connecting the dots.

    They wanted equity, and they got it long ago. When are we going to admit they are dangerously close to achieving a malignant form of female supremacy?

    Feminist are already admitting that. Watch out for loud declarations of women’s “innate biological superiority to men” in the mainstream media, because they will become more frequent. That’s how radfems will psychologically prepare the populace for their ultimate goal, which is to turn all men into chattel and then exterminate them.

    Susan Brownmiller, in her 1984 book Femininity, described it as “whimsy, unpredicability, emotional patterns of thinking and behavior, including tearful expressions of sentiment and fear.” She noted that all of these behaviors lie “outside the established route to success.”

    Laura Kipnis wrote in Slate that “Femininity is a system that tries to secure advantages for women, primarily by enhancing their sexual attractiveness to men. It also shores up masculinity through displays of feminine helplessness or deference. But femininity depends on a sense of female inadequacy to perpetuate itself.”

    You know everything’s going to Hell when you’re surrounded by idiots like Brownmiller and Kipnis.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Why are intelligent people not connecting the dots, which show a clear path from feminism to male decline?

      Was this question intended to be serious? The one and only purpose of the Man Up Campaign is to stifle and prevent any debate about feminism, by blaming all societal problems on men, in a rather predictable way I might add. Because to question feminism is to question women’s choices and decisions, and that’s a taboo. Of course nobody is connecting the dots.

      I would expect some anti-feminists to do so. James Taranto is the only writer who comes to mind.

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444506004577613510351533878.html

      Watch out for loud declarations of women’s “innate biological superiority to men” in the mainstream media, because they will become more frequent. That’s how radfems will psychologically prepare the populace for their ultimate goal, which is to turn all men into chattel and then exterminate them.

      Well why are intelligent men in media allowing this? Yes, this is a serious question. At what point are we going to see an acknowledgement that this is a very serious problem? When the economy stagnates fully? When the birth rate dips below Italy?

  • Sai

    @Abbot
    “Whats up with the parenting of girls in the US?  Are they being raised by women who slept with many men and chased thugs?  There is no other plausible explanation.”
    Shhhhh! They’ll hear you!

    @Jim
    “Welcome to Weimar where the Fed is buying the trillion dollar deficits because women are voting for the liberal agenda. Thus in effect, sealing their own destruction.”
    If this is Weimar-ripoff now, will we have a Fourth Reich in the near future? This isn’t a nasty/sarcastic question, I’ve heard somebody else predict this for the U.S.

    “I think that’s where we’re headed, and we will be happier for it.”
    Not I! I like being able to use the bathroom indoors and listen to music and read without groping for a candle. Long live dudes who invent things! (I don’t care if that makes me materialistic or cold. We’ve all got flaws and things to work on, and that’s one of mine.)

  • Höllenhund

    It’s hilarious how Plain Jane jumps up and down all the time about the so-called “Rape Culture” victimizing a bunch of college women and then promotes a complete agricultural transformation that would condemn the majority of the current human population to death by starvation.

    Michael Savage was right. It’s a mental disorder, not a political ideology.

  • Plain Jane

    Herr Krishna,
    “The more money you have the less looks you need; obviously it is good to be the total package, but there is only so many hours in a day, if you’re exercising or hanging out, you are not working, you are trading money for looks and socializing .”

    We were talking about college students first, not professionals. Nonetheless, veryone, from children to college students to middle aged professionals SHOULD be getting regular exercise for their own health and longevity’s sake.

    And everyone should be socializing/hanging out for one’s mental health. I’m not talking about partying, but making some regular connection with other beings of their species.

    As far as “The more money you have the less looks you need”… that’s for extremely money driven people, of which the majority of Americans probably don’t fit into that category. Most people value other aspects of life than just money making. I-bankers make a ton of money but they work 18 hours a day and don’t otherwise have a life. Sure, they may be able to attract attractive partners/spouses, but where’s the time to spend with them? Plus, when the cat’s away the mice will play.

    Better to lead a more well rounded life and achieve some sort of work/life balance. You and the people around you will be happier in the long run, and the more time you spend with your partner, the less chance she has of cheating on you.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms plain jane:
    I think this is a good spot to log a few thoughts about the lady.

    Ive asked the question before but it bears repeating: why is she here? I ask because to let her tell it, her life isnt necessarily burdened by the predations, real or imagined of the manosphere. Indeed, as ms walsh pointed out, much of the manosphere isnt even here in this forum-so whats her deal?

    While quite a few hus regulars have considered her to be little more than a garden variety troll, i take a more nuanced view of ms plain jane; i say shes here because shes a heck of a lot more concerned than she thinks she lets on.

    For example, lets take her obsession with the manosphere-and as one who has the bonafides to prove it, i can definitely say that many of her observations about said sphere is accurate: they have within their ranks, racists, weirdos, and out and out losers. But they also have many insightful, deep thinkers on the questions of gender roles, relationships, the idea of mens rights and so on. Often, the loonies and the brilliant overlap. But when has this ever been different?

    Although i do see ms walshs point in saying that this forum isnt the manosphere in an attempt to shut ms plain jane down, lets face it: hardly a discussion goes by here without somebody-almost always a female reader-mentioning said sphere. And the reason for why that is has everything to do with what ive noted previously:

    Because the chief major aim of the manosphere is for men to be heard in their own voices.

    And this is whats really at the heart of ms plain janes interest in the matter. Why?

    Because much of what the manosphere says, isnt just “interesting” or “curious” but just downright TRUE-and not the “family court” stuff either. Im talking about the “rpretty lies” stuff that keeps the plain janes and the susan walshes alike, coming back for more. Now to be sure, these two ladies deal with said insights of the manosphere in differing ways. But the fact that both are indeed quite interested in what said sphere says, really says it all to me.

    Sure, much of what ms plain jane says is squid ink, more befuddling to herself than anyone else and this again makes sense; women have a tougher time just blantantly dealing with the harsher realities of life than do men although we all know very notable exceptions to this rule on both sides of the gender aisle. Nevertheless the point is made: the manosphere, all its many flaws notwithstanding, has literally rocked ms plain janes world-and she is by no means alone. And that, is most definitely a good thing.

    For decades, women have had a virtual monopoly on how, when and even what is discussed, in the ongoing “conversation” regarding the sexes; as bill maher has so eloquently observed, as far as women were concerned, the perscribed male role was to “make women nod”. The manosphere, writ large, is a noted departure from such a “role”; men are, more and more, in just about every quarter, having their voices heard. Sure, some of it-much of it-can and will sound or come off as utterly ridiculous. And just as much can and will make a heck of a lot of sense-even to many women themselves.

    I posit that ms plain jane is experiencing a goodly degree of cognitive dissonance; if the manosphere is just whacked, why the need to even mention them at all? I say she does, because as much as she may despise them, she also knows that just a weebit too much of it, strikes very close to home too.

    In many ways, ms plain jane and indeed hus itself, is a triumph of the manosphere; both stand as living proof, that men are indeed, being heard.

    O.

  • Just1X

    @Höllenhund

    I’ve always thought of her affectionately as a schizoid, eating disordered puppy with diahorrea locked in an apartment with unlimited food (spiked with LSD)…YMMV

  • Plain Jane

    “It’s hilarious how Plain Jane jumps up and down all the time about the so-called “Rape Culture” victimizing a bunch of college women ”

    In your imagination. I never used the term “rape culture” and I never jumped up and down about it “victimizing a bunch of college women”.

    Like Susan I merely pointed out the difference between consensual and non-consensual sex since a few male commenters here were confused over the Trivino case. And I also made it clear I was also against these college committees and in favor of a court of law handling all alleged sexual assault cases.

    Reading comprehension much?

  • Höllenhund

    This men are needed/men are not needed debate just strikes me as a feminist-conservative pincer movement designed to subjugate men. Whenever a politician starts to babble about how fathers are necessary and important, you can be sure that the screws are about to be tightened on divorced fathers with a new round of anti-male legislation. When some feminist hack boasts on national TV that women no longer need men, you can be sure women are to receive more government subsidies and men’s opportunities in education and employment are to be eroded even further. It’ nothing but a trap.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      This men are needed/men are not needed debate just strikes me as a feminist-conservative pincer movement designed to subjugate men.

      Are you saying that was my objective in writing this post?

  • Plain Jane

    I wouldn’t worry too much about it. The human race has never had a problem figuring out how to make and replicate itself. Men and women will go on mating for millenia to come.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Sai #81….Weimar….one of the best descriptions of the Weimar era, and how it led to Naziism, was written by Sebastian Haffner, who lived through it all as a young man. I reviewed his memoir at length here:

    http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/11181.html

    It is more social history than political history, and very personal. I like his thoughts about his first love, a girl who was (oddly enough) nicknamed “Teddy:

    “…at a certain stage of life, about the age of twenty, a love affair and the choice of partner affect one’s destiny and character more than at others. For the woman one loves stands for more than just herself; a whole view of the world, a notion of life, and ideal, if you will, but one come alive, made flesh and blood…We all loved her, the bearer of this name, an Austrian girl, slight, honey-blonde, freckled, lithe as a flame…Our circle had a goddess in its midst. The woman who was once Teddy may now be older and more earthbound, and none of us may still live life at the same emotional pitch as then, but that there was once a Teddy and that we established those raptures cannot be taken from us.”

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Why do people assume that a whole generation of males just got too lazy to go to college? Why are intelligent people not connecting the dots, which show a clear path from feminism to male decline? They wanted equity, and they got it long ago. When are we going to admit they are dangerously close to achieving a malignant form of female supremacy?”

    You once thought my comparison of this stage of the Sexual Revolution to the Napoleonic Age of the French Revolution was an apt one. The Russians defeated Napoleon by destroying their own capitol (Moscow) so that when Napoleon (inevitably) captured it, he couldn’t use it to feed and supply his army.

    The second half of War and Peace tells that story (and the stories of people living through it).

  • Höllenhund

    The human race has never had a problem figuring out how to make and replicate itself. Men and women will go on mating for millenia to come.

    No. Look at fertility rates by country. They’re collapsing everywhere. The majority of the human race is already practising voluntary extinction. And demographic implosion is irreversible. We’ve turned into a race of mutants when we invented the means of our own destruction.

  • Abbot

    “When some feminist hack boasts…you can be sure women are to receive more government subsidies…”

    Like this:?

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/08/23/hook_up_culture_women_actually_want_it_and_less_needy_men_too_.html

    Lets see, where to start…oh yeah

    Subsidized abortions
    Subsidized progesterone recreation pills
    Subsidized motel rooms
    Subsidized psychiatric sessions
    Subsidized mandatory temporary boyfriend experience training for men
    Subsidized thug makeovers for men
    Subsidized pre-rape prep courses

    ,

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Sometimes it’s the most amazing thing to talk to a woman. I’ve had a few good conversations with women. And some of them even managed to break my heart.

  • Höllenhund

    Yes, it can be rather amazing in my experience as well. Amazing, that is, in the sense that it’s amazing to behold a two-headed calf.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Yes, it can be rather amazing in my experience as well. Amazing, that is, in the sense that it’s amazing to behold a two-headed calf.

      Dude, what is your problem? Do you just swing by to provoke in hopes of upsetting me so that you can go to other blogs and claim I banned you? Why do you come to a woman’s blog, read by women, and liken us to two headed calves?

  • John G

    Sorry Hollenhund but the internet has warped me….

    http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/b/be/Ackbar.jpg

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    PJ..”a definite move in the right direction of smaller, local, more long term sustainable, anti-gmo.”

    Dr Patrick Moore on the crime against humanity being perpetrated by those who opposed (genetically-modified) “Golden Rice,” which solves for Vitamin A deficiency…something that leads to 250,000 to 500,000 cases of childhood blindness every year:

    http://www.climatedepot.com/a/17410/Former-Greenpeace-cofounder-Dr-Patrick-Moore-rips-Greenpeaces-Crime-Against-Humanity-for-opposing-Golden-Rice-which-can-eliminate-vitamin-A-deficiency

  • Oscar

    And if you ask PJ why she wnts to impose mandatory yoga on school and college boys and men, she will not own up to her hate of things masculine, but will start talking about some greater good…

  • Abbot

    “she will not own up to her hate of things masculine”

    Next she will berate the universal masculine trait of avoiding promiscuous women as marriage prospects…

    .

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    “impose mandatory yoga on school and college boys and men”

    The requirements for mandatory this and mandatory that are crippling America’s institutions, from hospitals to schools. NYC nanny-in-chief Bloomberg, for example, wants to require women who choose not to breastfeed after childbirth to be lectured by nurses on the benefits of breast feeding **every time formula is delivered to them**, and that formula be treated as if it were a controlled substance—must be signed out by a registered nurse rather than an assistant. RNs are a critical resource who often have actual life-and-death tasks to perform.

    People who are trying to deliver useful services are finding their jobs made increasingly difficult by the infantilizing mandates endlessly sought by people like PJ and Bloomberg.

  • INTJ

    @ Abbot

    Lol from one of the comments in that Marcotte article. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=H-gfxjAaZg0

  • Joe

    @Susas

    Why do people assume that a whole generation of males just got too lazy to go to college? Why are intelligent people not connecting the dots, which show a clear path from feminism to male decline?

    I’m just catching up here, this morning.

    I’m not sure that’s exactly right. Ever see the great movie The Misfits with Marilyn Monroe and Clarke Gable? – His last film. In it, Gable’s character bemoans the death of his way of life, which is best described as self-sufficiency. Everyone’s a “salary-man” now, he complains. Working for somebody else instead of for himself.

    The movie is 1961 and is really represents a post-WWII outlook. Feminism has very little (if anything) to do with it. But the message is the same. Masculinity is dead or doomed.

    Having worked 30 years as an engineer and contractor, I get it. I’m less self-sufficient than the Marilyn Monroe character. It’s not a pleasant realization, but I was trained to be that way by an extensive public school education.

    After yesterday’s happenings in Cairo and Libya, I’m not sure it’s not all falling apart. We’re headed into difficult times. It’s going to be interesting to see who survives and who doesn’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      The movie is 1961 and is really represents a post-WWII outlook. Feminism has very little (if anything) to do with it. But the message is the same. Masculinity is dead or doomed.

      Having worked 30 years as an engineer and contractor, I get it. I’m less self-sufficient than the Marilyn Monroe character. It’s not a pleasant realization, but I was trained to be that way by an extensive public school education.

      This is very interesting. If you care to elaborate (or link if you prefer) I’d like to know more about the decline of masculinity following WWII.

  • Doc

    I was chatting with a young lady not that long ago, and she said the thing she likes about being with me is I make all of the decisions. She knows that I won’t *ask* her to do anything, but know what I want and demand it from her.

    As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to see that all women are just confused by all of the options they have, and do not want. They don’t want to have to work, they don’t want to have to do the things they are forced to by society. One said she was a doctor because her parents told her that is what she needed to be and do, and doesn’t want to make the life and death decisions she is faced with. And what she likes is I don’t ask her opinions, I just want her to be there and she can just relax and enjoy.

    That is what all women want – some fight against it since they are told they should, but it’s all smoke and mirrors. Women are as they have always been – the acted upon… They like it that way. It is as simple as that…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doc

      As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to see that all women are just confused by all of the options they have, and do not want.

      There is a lot of truth in this. Women got a lot of things from feminism that we don’t want.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    @Plain Jane:

    “Just reporting what I see; people returning to organic gardening in their back and front yards (which is illegal in some places!), permaculture, hydroponics, supporting local farms, etc. There’s a definite move in the right direction of smaller, local, more long term sustainable, anti-gmo. Heck if we all had a few acres per family we would need to rely on anyone else for food. Substinence farming used to be a way of life in many regions of the world.

    Our population is large now but it will decline soon due to various factors, so its doable. Whatever the case, people are waking up to the horrors of factory pharms and Monsanto’s agenda.

    This is pure Blue Pill thinking: it substitutes wishes and ideology for verifiable reality.

    Firstly, the idea that you can sustain a human civilization past a certain basic level without large-scale agriculture is inane. Nor is it something that can be done part-time. No matter how good a gardener you are, your two-acre plot is just not going to produce enough food and textiles to sustain your family. And the amount of time you must devote to such a task precludes having any other sort of employment. The “Back to the Land” movement has been going on in America since the 1800s, and even with the bump it got in the 1970s and 1990s it still only appeals to a very small percentage of people who feel peasantry is a better lifestyle than urban post-industrialization. And since the vast majority of Americans currently reside in urban areas, that’s just an untenable situation. There is no large-scale movement of folks from the city to the countryside, and there won’t be.

    Subsistence farming is a lousy way to make a living. Consider that a subsistence farmer works from 50-80 hours a week, is heavily dependent upon the cooperation of the weather gods, and he still usually has to trade for things like clothes and shoes. Subsistence farming leads to the Agricultural Age practice of ensuring inheritance (acreage) through lineal descent, which turns daughters into pawns and chattel. Subsistence farming requires animal husbandry, which puts you at the mercy of the animal gods. If the goat gets sick, you’re screwed. If your plough horse dies, you’re screwed. If you can’t manage to bring in a harvest large enough to ensure your offspring will survive the winter, have sufficient seed to plant in the spring, and then have a back-up surplus in case there’s a problem, you have no food security and you’re (you guessed it) screwed.

    Oh, you’ll just use a tractor and cultivator to do the hard stuff? Sorry, Cupcake, that’s industrial civilization, which you have eschewed.

    So how is this population going to decline peacefully and gradually? It won’t be by going back to the land. Subsistence farming encourages the growth of large families due to high infant mortality and the need for brute-force labor (no industrial equipment, remember?). So the population will expand just past the land’s ability to provide food, keeping the subsistence farming population at the brink of poverty and starvation indefinitely. If you want to shrink the population, then the model that does that is (surprise) industrial and post-industrial civilization. Subsistence farmers have an average of 8 kids or so. Industrial folks have an average of 3.5, and post-industrial folks have an average of 1.7 or thereabouts.

    But you can’t have industrial civilization without industrial agriculture and industrial medicine. That’s like depending on the “endless bounty of the ocean” to feed the masses, like they told everyone it was going to be in the 1960s. Now we’ve fished the oceans near dry. Small-scale agriculture is horrible on topsoil conservation and depletes the soil rapidly without an intense amount of chemical intervention — and yes, that includes organic fertilizers. Organic and local produce is a nice affectation, but you can’t run a civilization on it. To believe otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

    And people aren’t going to quit having a lot of kids if kids are their only social security. Because social security and other welfare nets are only possible for a culture when they reap the benefits and economic surpluses implicit in industrial civilization. Those models just don’t work for agricultural societies. Socially oppressive theocracy works, but …

    This is the same sort of argument that my progressive friends try to make about mass-transit in America: “Europe does it, we should be able to do it”, without recognizing as an important detail that our population density and patterns are far, far different from Europe’s, and cannot be dealt with the same way. You can’t “bike to work” when your job is air conditioning repair, for instance, and you’re in a truck all day. You can’t relocate your house every time you change a job because it’s within walking distance, or use your job to determine where you live with any sense of security. America is set up with the infrastructure it has, and only a massive change in technology and economy (and we’re already recovering from one) is going to affect that. And the only kind of change that would lead us to subsistence farming would be the kind of brutal catastrophic change that would see us returning to the worst of the Dark Ages.

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    If this is Weimar-ripoff now, will we have a Fourth Reich in the near future?

    Yesterday our computational physics teacher said that Germany has two options to deal with the European crisis – spend a lot of money bailing out the Euro, or start World War III. The former option is obviously a lot less costly. They tried the economic path at the end of the 19th century. They woke up and noticed that while the Bavarians, Prussians, etc. were busy killing each other, the English, French, etc. had been busy killing Americans, Africans, and Asians to build colonies. Instead of competing for colonies, the Germans tried scientific research, which allowed them to catch up to the colonial powers. Then they tried to build a navy to counter the British naval dominance, which resulted in a World War, which Germany lost. They tried a colonial grab of their own again and it turned into World War II, which they lost again. However, my professer said hope springs eternal, and you never know what they might try again. ;)

    In all seriousness, as I mentioned in the other thread while I think fascism could be a serious threat down the road, I don’t think we’ll end up with it. Granted, my perspective is somewhat skewed by the fact that I’ve lived in highly multiracial environments for quite some time now.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Lovely post, Susan, thank you for writing it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Lovely post, Susan, thank you for writing it.

      Good to see you Byron!

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Just1X,

    “I’ve always thought of her affectionately as a schizoid, eating disordered puppy with diahorrea locked in an apartment with unlimited food (spiked with LSD)”

    That’s how I’ve always thought of her too! Perhaps we’re onto something.

  • Just1X

    :)

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    The MGTOW movement serves a few roles, but one of them is as the natural response of men who are waking up to this injustice and reacting by rejecting the life-sucking, soul-crushing work required to make enormous amounts of money to become an attractive mate, and living more simply and cheaply. Not that all MGTOWs live on the cheap, but a great example of this is the soushoku danshi phenomenon in Japan.

    Its merely a dependency shift that takes away a man’s financial agency and his ability to directly influence the next generation

    As I age, I plan on building a houseboat/viking burial ship. Slowly I’ll convert assets to cash and my will will instruct my attorney to hire a tug captain to tow the boat with my body into international waters and burn it. They can split the remaining cash in my bank accounts.

    I figure if my genes, values, beliefs, and interests weren’t worth passing onto the next generation their by-products (ie my wealth) isn’t either.

    After all, I don’t want to be a negative on society after my death. I did enough of that selfishness in life.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    @david foster – Thank you for posting that review. I am going to be looking for that book. This portion really accused me:

    My spiritual preparation for what was ahead was almost equally inadequate. Is it not said that in peacetime the chiefs of staff always prepare their armies as well as possible–for the previous war? I cannot judge the truth of that, but it is certainly true that conscientious parents always educate their sons for the era that is just over. I had all the intellectual endowments to play a decent part in the bourgeois world of the period before 1914. I had an uneasy feeling, based on what I had experienced, that it would not be of much help to me.

    mea culpa,
    mea culpa
    mea maxima culpa.
    Ideo precor beatam Mariam
    semper Virginem,
    orare pro filios meos ad Dominum Deum nostrum.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Höllenhund

    Yes, it can be rather amazing in my experience as well. Amazing, that is, in the sense that it’s amazing to behold a two-headed calf.

    A witty reply from a woman would be this :

    … it’s really amazing how many men goes “moo” when those two calves are DD’s …

    Offended ?

    You shouldn’t be.

    See that for what it really is :

    A shit test.

    And how to pass such a shit test then ? Well, you can say this :

    That is udder-ly bullocks.

    There will be others methinks.

    So it’s back to the noble cause of getting the win, or the noble art of getting into her panties … so that you may get into her heart.

    That devolves down to two slogans then :

    Women Need Men, and Men Need Game

    OR

    Women Need Men, and Men Need Prostitutes

    Which is it now .? .. and which will it be in the future ?

  • http://neelysteinberg.com Neely Steinberg

    Amen! I wrote about this for Good Men Project months ago:

    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/men-and-women-need-each-other-yes-we-do/

    Great post, Susan.
    Neely

  • http://admiralcod.blogspot.com/ Laguna Beach Fogey

    Well said, I suppose. But, where’s the catch?

    You’re moving in the right direction. But it could be a case of too little, too late.

    Either women accept the patriarchy on their own, or they will be forced to accept it.

    That’s the choice.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    HerrKaiser

    Men think back to your 14 year old self and answer the question;
    if you were given the choice between A or B which would have you
    chosen?

    Except your option B often fails.

    I got option C:

    C. You become “clean cut”, you don’t get tattoos or piercing, you focus on
    academics and personal achievement. For the next twenty years you will be
    ignored by your peers; you will not attend the “cool” socials events, woman
    will look pass you, and when a woman notices you, she will be on the lower end
    of the attractiveness spectrum. However, at the end of twenty years with your
    career success and income generation, but you still have very limited access
    to woman. If you get one you’ll have to share her with the six-pack wielding but unemployed for two years (who knows how he makes money) other boyfriend. He’s the one she takes to weddings, too.

    Sure, it beats being broke with nothing at 40 but being the clean cut guy, at least for my generation, was always the ticket to no women, or sharing either in real time or over time.

    Option B is patriarchy, just ask your local feminist. And we can’t be having that.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Carmen:

    I think perhaps you are confusing ‘mothering’ with ‘femininity’. They are related, but not the same thing. Being mothering to your residence mates is not going to get you a laid.

    You are, however, on the money on the vulnerability aspect. If you can, please find the time to watch this talk by Brene Brown:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2jcwBc0HY

    The gist is that our culture expects women to be perfect, which makes women neurotic perfectionists (my words, not hers). The solution is for women to show more vulnerability. She has a number of talks, but I chose this less popular one because it’s the only one in which she also talks about men. The line is, women would rather see a man die that fall off his white horse, and it’s basically saying that men aren’t permitted to show weakness.

  • Jonny

    Women need men, or so it is claimed. Maybe not.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/09/communication-and-la-difference.html#comment-form

    This goes to the old standard. Look at a woman’s actions, not by what she says.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @INTJ and CanadianF

    I’m confused with these rules, roles and tips. I find men confusing, and the dating scene completely strange.

    Quite frankly, I’m tired with it all and I’m not even 25 yet.

    :( That’s the tragedy of modern relationships. Women find men confusing and men find women confusing and all the rules, roles, and tips make people feel like they’re walking tightropes.

    But I’m 21, have barely started looking for a relationship, and am already tired with it all. ;)

    Imagine doing it at 46.

    Decide now if you want an relationship and if you do find a good one now. It doesn’t get any easier with time. In fact, quite the opposite.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Regarding the path A: player versus path B: nice guy dichotomy, it’s a false choice. Nice guys and players are two sides of the same coin. A nice guy puts a women’s virtue up on a pedestal, a player puts a women’s pussy up on a pedestal. Both are supplicating themselves before women, and women hate that. If you want to be the stereotypical ‘gamma male’ or ‘great man’ depicted in romance novels then you need to be both lover and provider and yet not subordinate yourself to women in the process. I’m still at a loss as to whether it’s intelligent to try and be Ryan Gosling though, i.e. it feels like a fool’s game.

    Today’s society has created grossly inflated expectations for women, both for themselves and for their mates. I’ve date a couple of women who are my equal in terms of accomplishments, and they were both neurotic perfectionists who didn’t love themselves. Absent testosterone, I don’t see how women can complete without messing themselves up psychologically. The women with managed expectations are around, but as I mentioned previously, all in relationships.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Plain Jane

    Hang out, but at places that are good for you AND where healthy women hang – hello yoga studios!

    Fuck yoga studios. I was one of the most loyal (in time and money) of a yoga studio that opened by my work in 2002. I loved it. Until the feminists kept complaining to the owner about me for:

    1. A response I made to a question of hers in a private conversation that didn’t offend her but did offend two feminists who overheard it (and then in front of her made disparaging remarks to me).

    2. Complaining about me wearing a hash shirt (we were the “Hardfarts”) that they considered inappropriate. I had, in fact, avoided wearing it for that reason but on that day it was the only tee-shirt not already sweat soaked (and thus smelling) I had and figured it was better to be in a slightly inappropriate tee-shirt than reek.

    In the end I was continually encouraged to “be more respectful” which really translated to “don’t renew your membership”.

    I haven’t been back in a yoga studio since. I bought some videos and do yoga at home. I might pay for private instruction now, but fuck doing it in a group. I’m not welcome and learned that my unwelcomeness will be made clear in no uncertain terms.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Plain Jane

    Also, with all the complaints about gold diggers and women using men as walking ATMs, you should be glad that women don’t need you for that anymore. Now you can enter into a relationship based on other things than just what you can materially provide us. It enables more growth.

    Just because they don’t need it doesn’t mean plenty don’t want it and, to be honest, feel entitled to it.

    I complain about my lack of interest by women, However, one group has consistently provided one or two interested in me: single mothers one or two steps down the socio-economic ladder from me. They were very interested in a man with a steady job and a nice apartment. They weren’t interested in having kids with him (they already had kids, you see); they weren’t overly interested in sex. They were however interested in that you held a steady job and had a nice apartment.

    See my note above about my genes et al not being good enough for the next generation in terms of my reactions to them.

  • INTJ

    @ Herb

    Imagine doing it at 46.

    Decide now if you want an relationship and if you do find a good one now. It doesn’t get any easier with time. In fact, quite the opposite.

    Honestly, I can’t wait to have a relationship. The sooner the better.

    Coming out of high school, I figured I’d find a nice relationship in college. Then I got here and took a look around me. I saw two cultures. One was the overall party culture pervasive in UT Austin, filled with drinking, partying, and to some extent hooking up. Then there was the other culture of nerdy guys stuck in various friend-zones (and nerdy girls using the favorable male-female ratios to seek as much casual sex as possible). I decided to bury myself in studies to avoid getting hurt.

    Seriously, if the overall sexual marketplace is adversarial, the college SMP is like the cornucopia at the start of the Hunger Games – it’s a bloodbath, and if you don’t want to get hurt, you’d best get as far away from it as you can.

  • J

    It’s always made me feel very sad when I hear people saying things about the ‘end of men’.

    Really? It amuses me. It’s stupid, sensationalistic and short-sighted. Any heterosexual who is remotely in touch with their emotionality and sexuality has to realize that the “end of men” is an impossibility as is the end of women. While I’m sure sex roles will continue to evolve in response to conditions on the ground and that there will obviously be rough spots as things change, the “end of men” is the stuff of science fiction, dystopian science fiction at that. Hanna Rosin and the rest of the staff at The Atlantic are just trying to sell papers.

    It’s the flipside of men saying that those Japanese sex robots will replace human women. Perhaps a few men will devote their lives to “relationships” with their sexbots, but how different will that be from past years in which a certain percentage of men never married? The future belongs to those who breed.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Mule….re the Haffner book, one passage I thought was very interesting is the one in which he summarizes some of the things he saw as positives in the Weimar era:

    “Despite everything, one could find a fresh atmosphere in Germany at this time…The barriers between the classes had become thin and permeable…There were many students who were labourers, and many young labourers who were students Class prejudice and the starched-collar mentality were simply out of fashion. The relations between the sexes were freer and franker than ever–perhaps a fortunate by-product of the lack of discipline of the past years…we felt a bewildered sympathy for previous generations who had, in their youth, had the choice between unapproachable virgins for adoration and harlots for relaxation. Finally, a new hope even began to dawn in international relations; there was less prejudice and more understanding of the other side, and an unmistakable pleasure in the vivid variety that the world derives from its many peoples.”

    Isn’t this pretty similar to things that could be said about the U.S. social revolution of the last few decades?

  • Mike C

    However, one group has consistently provided one or two interested in me: single mothers one or two steps down the socio-economic ladder from me. They were very interested in a man with a steady job and a nice apartment. They weren’t interested in having kids with him (they already had kids, you see); they weren’t overly interested in sex. They were however interested in that you held a steady job and had a nice apartment.

    Herb,

    You are clearly delusional and imagining these situations. Maybe you were asleep and dreaming. I’ve read a great number of times and been told repeatedly that the meme of women seeking beta providers for mostly economic reasons is absolutely false and that it has never been witnessed…..Yes, I am being a smart ass :)

  • INTJ

    @ Mike C

    Herb,

    You are clearly delusional and imagining these situations. Maybe you were asleep and dreaming. I’ve read a great number of times and been told repeatedly that the meme of women seeking beta providers for mostly economic reasons is absolutely false and that it has never been witnessed…..Yes, I am being a smart ass

    You might be just being a smart ass, but it’s a very important comment to make.

    I’ve said numerous times that the theoretically optimal strategy for women is to seek alpha genes and then seek a beta provider to take care of them.

  • J

    It’s hilarious how Plain Jane jumps up and down all the time about the so-called “Rape Culture” victimizing a bunch of college women and then promotes a complete agricultural transformation that would condemn the majority of the current human population to death by starvation.

    IKR? If she were a guy, she’d be like one of Price’s minions, praying for the collapse of civilization and “Big daddy” government that’ll make the HB10s need them.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    IKR? If she were a guy, she’d be like one of Price’s minions, praying for the collapse of civilization and “Big daddy” government that’ll make the HB10s need them.

    Lol yeah.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Ian Ironwood

    Oh, you’ll just use a tractor and cultivator to do the hard stuff? Sorry, Cupcake, that’s industrial civilization, which you have eschewed.

    That is something that has always amazed me, the hippie “no consumer culture” types who think that their tractor or steel hoe doesn’t count (and when you get to the OWS crowd, their iPad either).

    I think these people really are at a cargo cult level of understanding of the source of things. They need to have “I Pencil” beaten into their brains repeatedly.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Women may need men, but more and more of them, if my son and his friends are any indication, will have to do without. Then we will see if the title of this post is true or not.

    My older daughter has recently taken up with two girls she met at her school who are casualties of the Sexual Trench Warfare. Both were highly promiscuous in high school and male interest in them has almost entirely ceased. Both are medicated, both have gained 40 pounds in less than a year, and both are not yet 21. My wife and I are concerned. The envy these two girls have towards my daughter is palpable, but my daughter seems unaware of this and unwilling to recognize that these two girls do not have her best interests at heart.

    The beast is also showing signs of rearing its ugly head in the life of my younger daughter as well: “There are only three cute boys in my class, Daddy. One of them likes me, but all the other girls like him too, and they keep saying mean things about me.”

    In a couple of years I’ll have to send her over here as well. Despite what the usual suspects say, I think you perform a valuable service. Just your acknowledging that men have challenges in the SMP, and exposing young women to this novel and unsettling idea, is so rare as to be statistically vanishing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mule Chewing Briars at 11:56 a.m.

      Wow, I was doing so well today, feeling so thick-skinned, and then I read your comment and on came the waterworks. Your kind words mean a great deal. Thank you for writing them.

  • J

    @Obs, J1X and Byron

    I have a solution to your problem. Read the first 2-3 sentences of a PJ post and then stop. Do not read further, and, for God’s sake, do not respond.

    The first few lines are often quite cogent; then she tends to go off the rails.

    @PJ

    Sorry, but it’s true. I often find myself agreeing with your first couple of lines, and then you stick your foot in it. Please take this as helpful feedback. I think if you’d keep it short and sweet, you’d do better here.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    Susan,

    This post is so true…

  • Mike C

    I’ve said numerous times that the theoretically optimal strategy for women is to seek alpha genes and then seek a beta provider to take care of them.

    Right….but Susan has mentioned repeatedly she believes the “fuck alpha cad and have his kids, seek out beta dad” meme is false, that she hasn’t witnessed it, and furthermore women have no reason to pursue this strategy. And then we’ve got Herb saying he runs into exactly this. So again, we are back to the divide of saying X but men running into something different in the real world that seems 180 degrees opposite.

    Actually, there is a way to reconcile this I think and that is socioeconomic status and educational achievement. Susan is UMC if not upper class and has a high level of educational achievement, and I’m sure her entire cohort is UMC, highly educated women. She doesn’t associate with the sort of women that live in Ted D’s neighborhood. They are off her “radar screen”. If all you associate with are high SES women you’ll probably get an entirely different view and witness different behavioral patterns from low SES women.

    My player/cad co-worker actually goes after a lot of low SES women (Hooters’ waitresses are a staple for him) and I’m always surprised at just how many 19. 20, 21, 22 year olds there are with out of wedlock kids. It really is rampant. These are the types of women who will spend their twenties fucking alpha cads like my co-worker and then one day at 30 when they’ve “matured” decide they want a nice guy provider when they don’t have the looks anymore to make good money waitressing at Hooters.

    Key point there is one red flag is a woman who radically changes her mating/behavioral patterns. More often then not, it probably isn’t due to some come to Jesus moment, but more pragmatic self-interest.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      Actually, there is a way to reconcile this I think and that is socioeconomic status and educational achievement. Susan is UMC if not upper class and has a high level of educational achievement, and I’m sure her entire cohort is UMC, highly educated women. She doesn’t associate with the sort of women that live in Ted D’s neighborhood. They are off her “radar screen”.

      Guilty as charged. I admit I have no knowledge whatsoever of the behavior of Hooters waitresses and women with multiple baby daddies. The statistics for that cohort are alarming, so I don’t have difficulty believing the stories you share.

      I know Ted D wants me to address those women, but the truth is they don’t read HUS, and I don’t know anything about their lives. My niche is college educated women and men, and the stats and studies I use focus on that group whenever possible.

      Remember, my goal is not to fix the SMP. My goal is to help individuals get rewarding relationships.

  • J

    I just clicked on Mule’s link. The amusing thing is that so many of the people who are angry at Susan still come here to post.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @MikeC

    Actually, there is a way to reconcile this I think and that is socioeconomic status and educational achievement. Susan is UMC if not upper class and has a high level of educational achievement, and I’m sure her entire cohort is UMC, highly educated women.

    I think you may be onto something here. I saw this much more as a Domino’s manager, a LMC job, than I do today as a quant at a too big to fail bank, a decidedly UMC job. Then again, UMC women have much fewer out of wedlock children and divorce less.

    I think another reason Susan pushes back is “fuck alpha cad and have his kids, seek out beta dad” is often presented as a thought out before hand strategy. It occurs, but not as a life plan. I think it is much more a “follow the thrill then make the best of stupid choices” post-facto strategy. If it was presented as that more often I think we’d get less push back.

    I also think we’d have a better chance of changing things.

    That does not, however, affect my desire to be the chump paying for someone else’s kids. I have, in the past five years or so, considered children a deal breaker unless you’re a widow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      I think another reason Susan pushes back is “fuck alpha cad and have his kids, seek out beta dad” is often presented as a thought out before hand strategy. It occurs, but not as a life plan. I think it is much more a “follow the thrill then make the best of stupid choices” post-facto strategy. If it was presented as that more often I think we’d get less push back.

      Absolutely! It’s the assumption of calculated, nefarious motives of feral, alpha cock chasing women, i.e. most of us, that drives me crazy.

  • Just1X

    @J
    there’s been a slight misunderstanding – I don’t read beyond her name. she has no values, no honesty, no reasoning, no grip on reality, no value…

    (keep telling everybody else though – cheers)

  • Joe Blow

    No, women don’t need men, nor men women. Not in the literal sense, though we may want each other quite a bit. As a high achiever in an okay marriage, I’d avoid marriage like the plague if I had it to do all over again. My wife is good and I am unstintingly loyal and faithful, but she could wipe me out in an instant after making a 60 minute visit to a guy who practices the euphemistically named “family law.” My feelings about marriage are not about her; it’s about what I’ve seen in the 20 years since we got married. I’d have never settled down with her or anybody knowing what I know now about how the system is biased against me (against men generally). Marriage has become a very bad investment for men.

    As an attorney, I’d advise any business client looking at a long term contract this imbalanced to run like hell, and consider leaving that line of business entirely if that contract was representative of dealings in that field. There are better ways to sink capital than into a deal where the person bringing the long term investment bears all the risk.

    It used to be that the immediate benefits of marriage included a woman offering her youth, beauty, vivaciousness and reproductive potential amd respect to a man, in exchange for his love and perpetual support. What she offered is the stuff that binds a man tightly to her at a mental and biological level, and what he offered was love and the means to take care of her as her beauty faded. But if she’s wasted herself on the cock carousel and is now ready to marry, odds are she’s a slightly fading 30-something woman, probably emotionally wounded in a number of respects, with looks about to drop off the cliff, she’s cynical, has high expectations, low tolerance for anything that doesn’t meet them, and will have trouble bonding as she’s an oxytocin junkie. She’s also probably pretty angry because she believes she is “settling,” because day-to-day life with her beta provider just doesn’t measure up to that hot weekend she spent with an Alpha in Bermuda, whose life surely is just a succession of weekends in Bermuda… So the man gets that, and takes on the responsibility of loving her without question, and supporting her… forever… even if she sticks it to him pretty badly down the road.

    In any marketplace, when a commodity (in this case the benefits attached to marrying a woman) is volatile, long term contracts are disfavored and a “spot market” arises. With the destruction of Marriage 1.0, and conventional morality, women are a volatile commodity, it’s hard to say what one is worth and whether the long term investment – which makes a 30 year mortgage look small – is worth what you get. At the same time, society is incentivizing breech of contract, encouraging her to ditch that loser, take his money, and go have fun. So marriage winds up being a combination of uncertain benefits coupled to a steep price and a contract that the “sellers” friends keep urging her to tear up… tough to talk a buyer, a guy, into that sort of contract. So a SMP spot market has arisen.

    The spot market in the SMP is hookup culture – a spot market for sex and fun, and it exists because the long term contracts the SMP used to push just aren’t attractive for the buyer. Spot markets don’t end at short term sales though. Clever buyers and sellers in spot markets engage in risk arbitrage, secondary contracts (options, and derivatives insuring those options) to limit the damage if the underlying commodities purchase goes pear-shaped. Ahem. In the SMP, these are Friends-with-Benefits, soft harems, booty calls, mistresses, Option B girls, recycling your 40 year old girlfriend for two 20 year olds, or in the seller’s case, the Bad Boy that the girl keeps on the side to get the fun that the Beta provider just doesn’t bring. That way there’s plenty of sex and fun to go around, without anybody having to deal with the complications and risk of the long term contract.

    Biologically humans don’t change but we broke the culture, so in the long run, we will get more of this, a harsh spot market for an SMP, a bit of risk arbitrage, and no sane “buyer” on the market will enter into a long term contract, though a good looking, profitable “buyer” will remain attractive to the sellers, who will still keep hoping for the big score. Face it, a million dollar long term contract is a lot nicer than a thousand one-day thousand dollar contracts. The sellers will also be reluctant knowing that in long term contracts, it’s a buyer’s market, and the buyers have gotten squirelly and are increasingly willing to break off a contract for a variety of reasons, including seller’s inability to deliver sufficient value.

    The anti-male animus of feminism, blaming men for this – as feminists blame men for all things – is well and good, but this situation isn’t men’s fault. We haven’t changed, and as any woman with a brain knows, men aren’t really capable of much in the way of change. Women’s political actions and sexual actions in the SMP are what have changed this market balance, and one consequence is that women have gotten what they wanted, while destroying Marriage 1.0 in the process, ironically enough preventing women from getting what they say they want. Increasingly, we will probably see something that looks like European trends – nobody gets married, anybody can walk out on anybody at any time, and the population is crashing because reproduction is utterly disincentivized. On the other hand, the majority of women who have kids are essentially married to the state, which becomes the primary provider in those (don’t stigmatize them, sexist!) single mom households.

    Hookup culture, loneliness, single moms, disease – this is the future. Quit trying to revive Marriage 1.0 and weeping about its death because your mom and your sisters destroyed it. Making slutting around more acceptable, sacramentalizing sex outside wedlock, abortion and birth control, more laws benefitting women and destroying men in divorce, and churches that insist it’s always the man’s fault – this is veering things in the wrong direction, even if it makes women feel lovely and accepted in the short term. And meanwhile, the schools are pretty unfriendly to boys, so you can expect more dumbass slacker boys to drop out and go their own way – your question isn’t going to be where the good ones went, but why there aren’t any men at all in your social circles. Fish don’t usually need bicycles but you’re going to have a tough time getting across town to the hen party on foot, dears…

    If I was a young guy, this would be a pretty good deal in a way – a lot of sex. no responsibilities. With an upward career arc, I’d do a lot of bed hopping, and trekking and sailing and going to NFL road games with buddies. I’d probably be an even higher high achiever if I didn’t have to cut my workdayoff at 11-12 hours and hustle home for dinner with the fam. So this would be a pleasant trip until middle-middle age, and then I’d have a reasonable slide into senescence, padded with all the money I avoided investing into a marriage, kids, kid’s college, and care of the wife. There’s none of the deep satisfaction of raising kids and having a good marriage, but it wouldn’t be bad and I’d avoid the ridiculous downside risk.

    The tough question for me right now is what to tell my son in a few years about how to navigate this brave new world of dating. He’s kicking butt in school (unlike 60% of his peers) and is a nice guy and jock, he’s going to be able to have his way in life… and I’m leaning toward teaching him game at an early age to give him a leg up in the SMP and keep him out of trouble with the bad actors on the market, even though I know it’s going to result in a 10 year romp through local women’s bedrooms, or longer if he chooses not to settle down. I’d rather have him wind up a PUA than an abused Herb.

    As a young woman… well, you’re lving your mom’s dream. Try to enjoy it. The career is pretty rewarding as long as you can validate yourself through pay raises and overtime bonuses, but the endless supply of guys willing to sleep with you ends when you hit about 32, and the limited supply of guys willing to kiss your ass just to be with you dries up just about entirely at age 40. Better get in the Woooooo! fun now because it’s cats and your circle of angry, bitter 45 year old single and recently divorced friends later on. Your mom & sisters may have killed Marriage 1.0, but they didn’t kill the SMP. It still operates under the same rules.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe Blow

      No, women don’t need men, nor men women. Not in the literal sense, though we may want each other quite a bit. As a high achiever in an okay marriage, I’d avoid marriage like the plague if I had it to do all over again. My wife is good and I am unstintingly loyal and faithful, but she could wipe me out in an instant after making a 60 minute visit to a guy who practices the euphemistically named “family law.”

      I don’t understand. Is your marriage just okay because your wife has the power to wipe you out? Or you fear that she will use it? That is true in many marriages that are good and strong. My husband has never had reason to fear family court, and the divorce rate among the college educated is 17%. You’re free to reject those odds, but most people won’t.

      As a young woman… well, you’re lving your mom’s dream. Try to enjoy it. The career is pretty rewarding as long as you can validate yourself through pay raises and overtime bonuses, but the endless supply of guys willing to sleep with you ends when you hit about 32, and the limited supply of guys willing to kiss your ass just to be with you dries up just about entirely at age 40. Better get in the Woooooo! fun now because it’s cats and your circle of angry, bitter 45 year old single and recently divorced friends later on. Your mom & sisters may have killed Marriage 1.0, but they didn’t kill the SMP.

      Marriage is far from dead, I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying that all women will be promiscuous until age 40, then it’s cats and GNO?

      It’s hard to take you seriously when you speak strictly in caricature.

  • Joe

    @Joe Blow

    No, women don’t need men, nor men women.

    …demonstrating why nobody really need attorneys.

  • INTJ

    @ Mike C

    I think for UMC women it’s more “fuck alpha cad while using insurance-covered birth control, then seek out beta dad when you’re 40 and hope you can still have kids.”

  • GudEnuf

    Men need to be needed, but do they needed to be needed for conforming to a stereotype?

    I just about lost it when Susan implied “manning the grill” was naturally male task. Who do you think manned the grill back when the grill was a open fire in Mesopotamia?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @GudEnuf

      I just about lost it when Susan implied “manning the grill” was naturally male task. Who do you think manned the grill back when the grill was a open fire in Mesopotamia?

      Look up “grilling competitions” and see who participates. I’ve been known to grill zucchini over gas, but I do not know a single woman who enjoys cooking with charcoal or tending the fire. Come to think of it, my husband does fireplace duty as well.

      Perhaps this communion with the element of fire is one of the few connections modern man has to his distant past. Perhaps he did no cooking in Mesopotamia, but grilling with a Big Green Egg is as close as he can get today. This would also explain men’s love of hunting – a return to the now unnecessary but still primal mission.

  • INTJ

    @ GudEnuf

    I just about lost it when Susan implied “manning the grill” was naturally male task. Who do you think manned the grill back when the grill was a open fire in Mesopotamia?

    Nobody. They “womaned the grill”. ;)

    (Yes, I know about the word roots and how man was a gender neutral term back in the days of wyf and weir, but it’s still funny to make a joke.)

  • Zorro

    OH MY GOD!!

    You just became my new personal spirit guide.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Perhaps this communion with the element of fire is one of the few connections modern man has to his distant past. Perhaps he did no cooking in Mesopotamia, but grilling with a Big Green Egg is as close as he can get today. This would also explain men’s love of hunting – a return to the now unnecessary but still primal mission.

    FML. I don’t like either. :(

  • Abbot

    “insurance-covered birth control”

    aka

    public provided prolific penis pouncing party pills…

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    I’m going to pimp myself here and try to go over why I think so many of the conversations on here degenerate to men and women talking past each other. The key is to avoid triggering an emotional response, because then the rational brain goes bye-bye and no further debate is possible. This means men shouldn’t trigger anxiety and fear in women, and the collolory is that women should’t trigger anger and bitterness in men.

    http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.ca/2012/09/how-not-to-argue-with-woman.html

    I’m posting this here because I basically triggered the fight in the last post, but I walked away from it. I haven’t read the last 100+ post in the BU Terriers post, and I’m not going to because I know it’s a waste of time (which is why I’m posting this here, not to derail the thread, but to talk about it in a less charged atmosphere).

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    Look up “grilling competitions” and see who participates. I’ve been known to grill zucchini over gas, but I do not know a single woman who enjoys cooking with charcoal or tending the fire. Come to think of it, my husband does fireplace duty as well.

    On Chopped last night the theme was grilling, and the only contestant with a history in BBQ competitions was a woman who makes her living via such competitions.

  • Jonny

    My wife bought me a BBQ grill because she knows I want it. I also want a wood fire pizza oven and a smoker.

    Men seem to enjoy cooking outdoors. I know I do. Women are better at baking, which I love eating, but they are too time consuming.

    Cooking can be consider gender based on the foods we enjoy.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Grilling….one could do a whole book or PhD thesis (someone probably already has) on practices, folklore, and tradition in male and female uses of fire. Consider: cooking, pottery, heating, small-scale metalworking (for use), small-scale metalworking (for adornment), large-scale metalworking (blast furnaces, etc), power (steam engines),…

    Speaking of fire for heating, in the Tom Watson Jr book I mentioned some time back, he had a family story about how his parents (his father was the founder of IBM) first got married, his mother told Tom Sr to go check the furnace before bed. He asked why it needed to be checked, and Mrs Watson said she didn’t know, but that her father had always done it. So he did. The story ended with the house filled with some and, IIRC, narrowly escaping burning down.

  • Mike C

    I think another reason Susan pushes back is “fuck alpha cad and have his kids, seek out beta dad” is often presented as a thought out before hand strategy. It occurs, but not as a life plan. I think it is much more a “follow the thrill then make the best of stupid choices” post-facto strategy. If it was presented as that more often I think we’d get less push back.

    I’ve always really liked this quote of unknown attribution:

    Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

    So yeah…I don’t think it is a strategy planned out years in advance, but just an ad hoc response to changing conditions especially once the wall is in sight. Generally speaking, I don’t think most people have much future time orientation, and I think women on average have even less than men as I think there is a correlation between emotions and feeling and “living in the moment”. I have a relative who I consider highly intelligent, she is a very high achiever, but she finds herself today in a precarious position because she didn’t think enough about her long-term future in her 20s and where and what she would want by the time she reached her mid 30s.NJ

  • Wants to know

    Some many great points to this comment roll!
    Why don’t we make the Red Pill Revolution go just a bit faster? I believe a life well lived is the best revenge (um, meant to say example.) However finding Red Pill men, as expressed by some of the earlier post and from my own personal experience, is like looking for a needle in a haystack!

    So my question is to Susan (sorry if this has been asked of you before): Why don’t you add a dating site to HUS, where people of the Red Pill persuasion can find one another? There are sites for farmers and seniors why not Red Pill?
    I know this sound really immature but if we can’t have a dating site can we at least come up with some kind of secret handshake or signal that lets us know when we’re in each others presence. Expressing my views has not been easy on a college campus.
    One last thing. My parents have been “Red Pill” for as long as I have known, there is a quote from Robert Jordan the author of The Wheel of Time series that always hangs on the refrigerator at my parents house that I use as a guide to my relationships.

    “If a woman is stronger than her husband, she comes to despise him. She has the choice of either tyrannizing him or else making herself less in order not to make him less. If the husband is strong enough, though, she can be as strong as she is as strong as she can grow to be.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Wants to know

      Haha, someone else recently suggested a dating site, but I love the Red Pill idea!

      That’s a great quote by Robert Jordan.

  • J

    but I do not know a single woman who enjoys cooking with charcoal or tending the fire. Come to think of it, my husband does fireplace duty as well.

    I love fire. I do fireplace and campfire duty. When we camp, my sons have to fight me for control of the fire ring. DH grills though.

  • J

    So yeah…I don’t think it is a strategy planned out years in advance, but just an ad hoc response to changing conditions especially once the wall is in sight.

    I find this more convincing than the notion that women intentionally get knocked up by alphas and then marry betas. I do think there is a sort of woman who throws caution to the wind and accidentally gets pregnant or follows the tingle into trouble. I also think that there are women who really do want the baby and not the marriage, as Obs maintains. Generally, the inseminator in those cases is going to be a willing alpha, if for no other reason than a stereotypical beta isn’t going to as willing to father a kid out of wedlock. But the idea that there’s some sort of conspiracy? No.

    Generally speaking, I don’t think most people have much future time orientation, and I think women on average have even less than men as I think there is a correlation between emotions and feeling and “living in the moment”.

    I think that has more to do with class than gender. UMC marry later in part because they so much future time orientation that they are willing to delay the gratification of relationships until they have fulfilled other goals.

    I can’t speak for Susan, but I will say that I tend to dismiss such behavior as “white trash shenanigans” when it’s discussed. I grew up with people who acted this way, and I now avoid them like the plague. It’s probably a blindspot I have but, on a certain level, I do tune that out. If there’s nothing I can do to stop people from being foolish, I don’t pour energy into it.

  • Ted D

    J – ” I can’t speak for Susan, but I will say that I tend to dismiss such behavior as “white trash shenanigans” when it’s discussed. I grew up with people who acted this way, and I now avoid them like the plague. It’s probably a blindspot I have but, on a certain level, I do tune that out. If there’s nothing I can do to stop people from being foolish, I don’t pour energy into it”

    Well the problem there are far more “white trash” folks than UMC folks, so at some point the trash is going to out breed and out number the supposedly “smart” folks. What do we do then?

  • John G

    Mr Taranto writes for the Wall St. Journal opinion section which is kinda right wing and doesn’t have a ton of exposure. Also what he writes although correct isn’t PC.

  • Abbot

    “men do like having women depend on them, which gives them an opportunity to display strength, competence and leadership.”

    Feminists do not want women depending on men or anything elses and they certainly do not want any more such displays from men, no matter what the cause but most especially if its caused by women and most especially if that cause is dependency.

    That is why this whole hook-up crisis has caused feminists to swoop in and claim they are now in charge of it. Its better for women to just get in, get the penis and get out with no other connection and no control boost for the penis life support system.

  • Plain Jane

    “I do acknowledge in the post that women increasingly do not rely on men for financial support, but of course we have many other needs. ”

    Women and men need each other for sexual and emotional needs.

    Now, for people with low libidos who get their emotional needs met through family and friends, or for those who are not particularly in touch with emotions, a romantic relationship with the opposite sex is not needed.

    I agree with the lawyer guy that “legal marriage” is risky. I don’t think we’ll see much of it 50 years from now.

  • J

    I don’t understand this comment. Are you suggesting that I offered a piece of logic that whatever is needed, needs to be needed? That’s preposterous.

    He linked to a video of a donkey that was suspended in the air by its yoke because some Arabs had overloaded the donkey cart it was hauling. He’s saying that men need women like that donkey needs Arabs.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . He’s saying that men need women like that donkey needs Arabs.

      I know, but the logic doesn’t work.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @J

    I think that has more to do with class than gender. UMC marry later in part because they so much future time orientation that they are willing to delay the gratification of relationships until they have fulfilled other goals.

    For further reinforcement of the idea that future orientation maps to calls I recommend A Framework for Understanding Poverty. It was immensely helpful in managing a building in a very poor neighborhood; I wish I’d had it as a Domino’s manager. It explains behaviors that made no sense to me.

  • J

    Well the problem there are far more “white trash” folks than UMC folks, so at some point the trash is going to out breed and out number the supposedly “smart” folks. What do we do then?

    I don’t know, Ted. I will say that I do see a trend in my neck of the woods of UMC marrying somewhat younger and actively pursing marriage. As younger women are see ng older women have infertlity issues, they are becoming more conscious that their fertile window is limited.

    I also think that while there’s going to be a growing gulf between the classes in the years to come, there will eventually be a pendulum swing back to “middle class” values as opposed to the current glorification of underclass values. Additionally, I sorta agree with PJ that there will be a simplification of life all around if the economy continues to scale back. According to DH who works in finance, the industry’s consensus is that the big booming economy years were an artificial bubble that has burst. The US will return to slower growth, but not to a 1930-type Depression as many fear. There will be less chasing after material things and luxuries, but eventually things will be OK. Hopefully, as people become less materialistic, at least some will develop an ethic that revolves around things that really matter.

  • Ted D

    For the record, I never said women planned to have an alpha baby-daddy and then find a beta to support her. But honestly who cares if it is a plan or stupidity? You get the same result regardless.

    Susan – the only reason I keep on bringing up those Hooters waitresses is because there are many more of them than current college students. If there is any hope of fixing our current state of affairs, it must address their issues. I doubt the U.S. welfare housing is filled with college graduates. Again, there are more poor people than rich. No matter how good the UMC has it, it will all come crashing down when those poor people start rioting.

    And I’ll add this: I feel sorry for anyone with money if it comes to that. It isn’t my house those crowds will be looting because I don’t have anything they want. At the end of the day, it will be the rich that feel the anger and hatred of poor. I might just make some popcorn and watch the show if possible.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    Absolutely! It’s the assumption of calculated, nefarious motives of feral, alpha cock chasing women, i.e. most of us, that drives me crazy.

    That’s fine, but you and other women need to accept that calculated, nefarious motive or “follow the thrill then make the best of stupid choices” post-facto strategy doesn’t matter much in how men form opinions about the women who engage in it.

    When those women are the majority of those who show interest in us don’t be surprised if our attitude about women in a romantic context doesn’t change as well, especially when we’re not allowed to criticize those poor victims (of what is never said).

    The reality is regardless of when they made the choice to chase a beta provider they were only interested in the tingle until they needed someone to pay the bill and then Mr. Clean-cut and holds down a job became much more interesting. I know a lot of the ‘sphere complains about being forced to support said women via welfare and I don’t disagree but it’s better than having to deal with them chasing me to be a wallet retail.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      The reality is regardless of when they made the choice to chase a beta provider they were only interested in the tingle until they needed someone to pay the bill and then Mr. Clean-cut and holds down a job became much more interesting.

      I’m still not understanding. Women are outearning men. Why would they seek a provider when they are already doing well?

      Or are you talking about women on public assistance? (Who do not read this blog…)

      I hear men saying that women are increasingly finding men disposable, and then turning around and saying they’re marrying men they don’t love for the money. What am I missing?

  • Joe

    @Susan

    If you care to elaborate (or link if you prefer) I’d like to know more about the decline of masculinity following WWII.

    Oh, I can’t be authoritative on this. It’s just a personal experience. But consider:

    My uncle John is 91 this year, a WWII vet. In point of fact, he was given a high award by the French! government not too many years ago for an act of bravery he perform while serving on a bombing mission there in ’44. He’s a bonafied hero.

    My dad, John’s younger brother, had a student deferment, so he did not serve in the Korean war, the first of his family to not wear a uniform. Still, he owned his own business and successfully raised a large family.

    I grew up singing Peter Paul & Mary’s “The Great Mandela” to protest the VietNam war, and like I say, spent the last 30 years working for a salary – working for someone else. I have no kids of my own (step-father to three).

    After seeing the Clarke Gable character in The Misfits, it’s hard to not feel like a drone, if only because he spells it out so well. It’s hard for me to not see a straight line loss of masculinity that spans generations.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    Commenter Formerly Known As is Plain Jane. I feel like a nursery school teacher.

  • INTJ

    @ Hollenhund

    Since you hold HUS in such low regard and don’t think it’s going to accomplish anything, why do you comment here?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    In all seriousness, as I mentioned in the other thread while I think fascism could be a serious threat down the road, I don’t think we’ll end up with it. Granted, my perspective is somewhat skewed by the fact that I’ve lived in highly multiracial environments for quite some time now.

    Fascism can get a new dress. I mentioned that from my POV USA has replaced racial segregation with social segregation social bubbles despise and don’t listen to each other I see it all the time, being moderate myself is only a matter of time before the divide grows and with the internet likeminded people can find each other miles away.

    That’s how I’ve always thought of her too! Perhaps we’re onto something.

    I would add multiple personality disorder.

    If you get one you’ll have to share her with the six-pack wielding but unemployed for two years (who knows how he makes money) other boyfriend. He’s the one she takes to weddings, too.

    Ouch no wonder you are so down. I’m sorry to hear that if you want to vent I’m a good listener and I’m discreet so you can email me.

    IKR? If she were a guy, she’d be like one of Price’s minions, praying for the collapse of civilization and “Big daddy” government that’ll make the HB10s need them.

    My favorite image of the angry manosphere was warming to the fire of civilization burning. For some reason I think of Rome burning while people is roasting marshmellows in the fire…It just amusing to me for some reason.

    That is something that has always amazed me, the hippie “no consumer culture” types who think that their tractor or steel hoe doesn’t count (and when you get to the OWS crowd, their iPad either).

    Hence my rant about the Science is evil trope…

    Do not read further, and, for God’s sake, do not respond.

    THIS! Why everyone is feeding the troll?! I don’t get it “Troll Chow is made out of people…people!”

    I have no problem with your saying women want men rather than need them, but just as the fish in the cartoon is dying to ride that bike, so too women want men very much. The number of young heterosexual women who dispense with men altogether is miniscule and will always be so.

    I always compare it to people saying people need nutrients to survive but want delicious food. Hypothetically you could get all your nutrition from vitamins, serum and some mixes but who would like to live a life without the flavors and colors and tastes of food? Very Very few. Men are the flavor of life for women and not having one is akin to surviving of only Tofu and Soy milk,YMMV.

  • Perma Culture

    “Commenter Formerly Known As is Plain Jane. I feel like a nursery school teacher.”

    Fair enough, Susan, but you never did say why I was banned this time.

    Is it because of the nick name I gave D-rock? What gives?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Perma Culture aka Plain Jane

      You’re not banned, you’re in moderation, and that’s going to continue. I will let through any comments that are reasonable and not trolling. J gave you good advice – keep it short and stop derailing the threads to talk about India or anything related to South Asia.

      If you show the self-discipline to leave meaningful commentary, I’ll let it through. Otherwise we can go back to my putting you in mod every time you invent a new name. Stick with Plain Jane, and make sense.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I hear men saying that women are increasingly finding men disposable, and then turning around and saying they’re marrying men they don’t love for the money. What am I missing?

    Herb already answered your question:

    When those women are the majority of those who show interest in us don’t be surprised if our attitude about women in a romantic context doesn’t change as well, especially when we’re not allowed to criticize those poor victims (of what is never said).

    Women find men disposable until they actually need them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      Women find men disposable until they actually need them.

      But what do they need them for? They’re allegedly riding the alpha carousel through their 20s as they pursue degrees and careers. Why would they need a salaried husband they don’t find attractive just because they’re 30?

      The stigma around staying single is minimal today, so that’s not it. If they wanted to marry, they would have made that a priority earlier, so that can’t be it.

  • J

    Thanks, Herb. I just checked to link; it looks interesting. I do understand a lot of the poverty mentality because I come from the working class. I
    I wouldn’t say we were poor, but we were sometimes broke due to illnesses, lay offs, etc. The best thing my folks ever did was instill in me some contempt for the defeatist and/or live in the moment thought patterns that are common among the poor. No one did that for DH; he had to figure it out on his own.

    @Ted

    I realize how stuck up and severe this sounds, but honestly, we’d not be where we are today if we said things to ourselves like, “Oh well, I’m never gonna have a nice house, so I’ll buy some bling instead.” or “School is for rich kids, why should I work for tuition when I can go party.” Yeah, there might be riots in the streets one day, but I can’t feel bad for people who choose not to put in the work that DH and I did. I have cousins my age who are great-grandmothers. I won’t live to see that because of my life choices; I chose to study in high school instead of getting pg at 15. I don’t care if they envy my house or my clothes or that fact that I’m still with my husband. Until they choose to riot, it’s not my problem because I can’t fix it. And, since I’ve already survived one riot, I’m not as scared as I might be.

  • deti

    Susan:

    “I hear men saying that women are increasingly finding men disposable, and then turning around and saying they’re marrying men they don’t love for the money. What am I missing?”

    Here’s part of what you’re missing. Your reply to MikeC at 168:

    “I admit I have no knowledge whatsoever of the behavior of Hooters waitresses and women with multiple baby daddies. The statistics for that cohort are alarming, so I don’t have difficulty believing the stories you share.

    I know Ted D wants me to address those women, but the truth is they don’t read HUS, and I don’t know anything about their lives. My niche is college educated women and men, and the stats and studies I use focus on that group whenever possible.”

    Susan, your experience and research deals with college students and people in the UMC or upper classes. With all due respect, you have no experience with or knowledge of MC or working-class or underclass social dynamics. The cultural dynamics are different. The social and economic pressures are different. You haven’t lived in it or studied it or researched it. Maybe it’s not one of your areas of interest. It might not have been researched, or be researchable. This is one reason Ted’s posts resonate with me — he’s in it, he sees it, and he reports what he sees.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      I agree that I haven’t studied non-college bound crowd, but that very definitely includes the middle class. IIRC, I recently provided you with the percentage of 2011 high school graduates who enrolled in college: 68.3

      That 2/3 of the population is going to experience hookup culture, with its distinctive features on college campuses. The 1/3 that does not go to college will have a very different experience, and may have casual sex, OOW births, etc. at a high rate, but they will not experience hookup culture per se.

      I write about hookup culture.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mule Chewing Briars

    The beast is also showing signs of rearing its ugly head in the life of my younger daughter as well: “There are only three cute boys in my class, Daddy. One of them likes me, but all the other girls like him too, and they keep saying mean things about me.”

    It will only get worse as she gets older. Pre-selection is one hell of a bitch to deal with.

    Since I’ve started dating my guy, 2 different women have come out of the woodwork to profess feelings for him. Coincidentally, these professions happened within a day or two of him introducing me to them. He’s known one woman for about 15 years, and the other woman is someone he was in a recent theatre production with. I’ve found it humorous and very in line with game teachings.

    @ Ted D

    Well the problem there are far more “white trash” folks than UMC folks, so at some point the trash is going to out breed and out number the supposedly “smart” folks. What do we do then?

    If “Idiocracy” ever becomes a reality, I will put myself out of my misery.

    @ Herb

    When those women are the majority of those who show interest in us don’t be surprised if our attitude about women in a romantic context doesn’t change as well, especially when we’re not allowed to criticize those poor victims (of what is never said).

    At least you have the power to turn such women down. Don’t settle for such garbage.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    J,
    Re: white trash, it really isn’t as simple as a personal choice. My BF actually worries a lot that people will see him as white trash because he hasn’t made it through college and he’s working two service sector jobs (extremely low paid) to get himself back to school. I was lucky to have parents who paid for my college education; his family won’t even cosign his loans.

    I can guarantee that your attitude would really bother him. He works extremely hard to try to move himself up. In general, I think the idea that LMC people don’t work as hard as UMC people is utter bullshit.

  • deti

    All the single women here should go back and read Joe Blow’s comment, especially this:

    “It used to be that the immediate benefits of marriage included a woman offering her youth, beauty, vivaciousness and reproductive potential amd respect to a man, in exchange for his love and perpetual support. What she offered is the stuff that binds a man tightly to her at a mental and biological level, and what he offered was love and the means to take care of her as her beauty faded. But if she’s wasted herself on the cock carousel and is now ready to marry, odds are she’s a slightly fading 30-something woman, probably emotionally wounded in a number of respects, with looks about to drop off the cliff, she’s cynical, has high expectations, low tolerance for anything that doesn’t meet them, and will have trouble bonding as she’s an oxytocin junkie. She’s also probably pretty angry because she believes she is “settling,” because day-to-day life with her beta provider just doesn’t measure up to that hot weekend she spent with an Alpha in Bermuda, whose life surely is just a succession of weekends in Bermuda… So the man gets that, and takes on the responsibility of loving her without question, and supporting her… forever… even if she sticks it to him pretty badly down the road.”

    Women ignore male attitudes like this at their extreme peril.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    The stigma around staying single is minimal today, so that’s not it. If they wanted to marry, they would have made that a priority earlier, so that can’t be it.

    Really? After everything you’ve read, you really believe this?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Really? After everything you’ve read, you really believe this?

      Ha! Kate Bolick has a new TV show filming, which is about singlehood being “the destination, not the journey.” Feminists are turning lemons into lemonade by successfully convincing many young women that the single life is better than marital drudgery. That’s fine with me, it means less competition for the women who do want to marry.

      I think the question of future time orientation really is the key. The woman who avoids casual sex is the woman who wants to marry is the woman who does marry. The woman who rides the carousel is impulsive and not particularly well suited to marriage in any case. She is likely to delay marriage too long or perhaps forever. And if she does decide to marry, she’s the least likely to go for a beta.

      I believe that alpha chasers stay alpha chasers. People don’t change, and women just have no incentive to marry a man they don’t love, in my view.

  • Plain Jane

    OK Susan, but how does my comment re “maybe she’s just not that into you” not make sense? When young men who choose to go into religious communes get labled as “bad boys” just because they don’t go the typical route, as well as surfers or long hairs, or whatevers getting labled “thugs” because some guys are jealous the girls they liked chose them instead, something is off.

    Thugs are serious business. Other guys are just nice guys not being mainstream. There’s a huge difference.

  • Iggles

    Joe Blow @ #135,

    “My feelings about marriage are not about her; it’s about what I’ve seen in the 20 years since we got married.”

    Maybe it’s me being an ‘emotional woman’ but there’s no way I could not take it personal if the man I married and had children with said what you said. That if he made the choice again today he would prefer to stay a bachelor and screw a variety of women so that he could keep his money!

    While I agree family law seriously needs to be revised, what marriage is really about is building a life together with the person you love.

    To think it’s not worth it because the wrong partner could cause you financial/emotional pain just doesn’t hold weight to me. The remedy for that is making sure you pick the right person. Saying you would have chose a different path today is a slap in the face to your spouse in my opinion!

  • Plain Jane

    “While I agree family law seriously needs to be revised, what marriage is really about is building a life together with the person you love.”

    Precisely why our culture is slowly transitioning away from marriage as a legal entity. We will continue to see couplings and families, but they won’t be getting legally married any near the extent they do today, 50 years from now.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    But what do they need them for? They’re allegedly riding the alpha carousel through their 20s as they pursue degrees and careers. Why would they need a salaried husband they don’t find attractive just because they’re 30?

    The stigma around staying single is minimal today, so that’s not it. If they wanted to marry, they would have made that a priority earlier, so that can’t be it.

    Baby rabies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      Baby rabies.

      I don’t think so, that just gets you unsexy sons (from the carousel rider’s perspective). A woman can go to a sperm bank and choose from among handsome donors of every conceivable ethnicity, religion and hair color. They can even select sperm by profession, i.e. doctor or lawyer. My son had a fraternity brother in college with red hair, and despite what they say about gingers, he was in great demand for sperm donations and was paid handsomely. He was pre-med, high GPA, Irish Catholic, red hair. A sperm donor superstar.

      A woman with her own income would surely prefer raising her designer baby alone, with hired help, than share a bed and a life with a boring joe who is a constant irritant, no? (Again, I speak from the hypothetical female’s perspective.)

      I would absolutely consider the turkey baster route over a meh marriage if I wanted children and did not plan to marry.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    But what do they need them for? They’re allegedly riding the alpha carousel through their 20s as they pursue degrees and careers. Why would they need a salaried husband they don’t find attractive just because they’re 30?

    As a low class myself, in money not mentality, I would say the women that do this, and not all of them do, BTW want:
    a)Status even if being single is not demonized not having a man in your life is pretty downing specially if anyone on the neighborhood has an steady man is intrasexual competition having a husband to bitch about is better than having none, specially as they grew older.
    b) Why spent my money when I can spent his money? Sad but true most women want to have more and more buy and see there is still money left to buy even more.
    c) Security once the wall starts to approach they realize that not having a man they can rely on will be a problem when they reach old age, not having a companion dying alone is a real fear.
    Those at the top of my head. I don’t think the meme is that prevalent but there is a percentage of population that starts playing musical dating chairs when there are less chairs left than when they were younger.
    If we use evo-bio the lack of available men actives their search for one mode, like I mentioned in a my culture a decent husband is so hard to find that a woman that meets him won’t let anything on the way to lock him down she could be 18 and out of high school and decide to marry she can get a career later college won’t go anywhere but he might. The opposite of here, YMMV.

  • deti

    Joe Blow: “My feelings about marriage are not about her; it’s about what I’ve seen in the 20 years since we got married.”

    Iggles: “Maybe it’s me being an ‘emotional woman’ but there’s no way I could not take it personal if the man I married and had children with said what you said. That if he made the choice again today he would prefer to stay a bachelor and screw a variety of women so that he could keep his money!”

    Iggles, you ignored or didn’t see Joe’s next sentence which puts it all in context. He made it clear it wasn’t personal:

    “I’d have never settled down with her or anybody knowing what I know now about how the system is biased against me (against men generally).”

    Can’t say as I disagree with Joe Blow on that one — looking at it purely academically. We will make more headway in finding the truth if we can discuss things dispassionately and objectively without taking everything personally.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      “I’d have never settled down with her or anybody knowing what I know now about how the system is biased against me (against men generally).”

      But if he selected well, why isn’t he thanking his lucky stars it worked out?

      I don’t understand the mentality of “I would do it all so differently, based on what didn’t happen to me!”

      That doesn’t even make sense. It seems pretty clear to me that Joe Blow is disappointed with his choice, even though he admits she is a good wife. Isn’t this the kind of frivolous unhaaaaaaaaaapiness you deplore?

  • Desiderius

    Sassy,

    (btw, mucho congratulations on the budding LTR – as you tone down the sass, make sure to keep that poise that made you a catch in the first place)

    “Since I’ve started dating my guy, 2 different women have come out of the woodwork to profess feelings for him. Coincidentally, these professions happened within a day or two of him introducing me to them. He’s known one woman for about 15 years, and the other woman is someone he was in a recent theatre production with. I’ve found it humorous and very in line with game teachings.”

    This phenomenon has really reached comic proportions. In one of the groups (around 100 people, mostly 24-34) I hang out with, the youngest (24) decided she liked my look one night last year when we were out at the opera and started acting like we were a couple for awhile. The rest of the night, five other women who had previously been lukewarm toward me were all fighting for my attention.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    While I agree family law seriously needs to be revised, what marriage is really about is building a life together with the person you love.

    I have seen many couples in advanced old age who were not married. I was married and did not get to successfully build my life together with the person i loved. Problems inherent to the system led to it. Marriage is a piece of paper which puts a legal noose around a mans neck with which a woman can pull the trapdoor to at any time. Until this is resolved, i find marriage to be less conducive to the ideal you ascribe to than cohabitation.

    To think it’s not worth it because the wrong partner could cause you financial/emotional pain just doesn’t hold weight to me. The remedy for that is making sure you pick the right person. Saying you would have chose a different path today is a slap in the face to your spouse in my opinion!

    Would you buy a car today if you knew it’s seatbelts had a failure rate of 50% and you were forbidden to sue the automaker were you to sustain injury in a crash?

    Didn’t think so.

    Sorry for the snark, but i find it ridiculous to hear people talk about marriage as the defining moment of their relationship, rather than the day to day feelings one has for their mate. Marriage was nothing more than symbolism in the past, a symbol that is currently experiencing rigor mortis in this day/age/culture. Now it’s a legal firing squad where in a majority of cases ALL the risk is assumed by the man.

    Anything that two people can do within a marriage they can do without. So give a guy a good compelling reason why he should play a game with better odds than getting hit by lightning?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This phenomenon has really reached comic proportions. In one of the groups (around 100 people, mostly 24-34) I hang out with, the youngest (24) decided she liked my look one night last year when we were out at the opera and started acting like we were a couple for awhile. The rest of the night, five other women who had previously been lukewarm toward me were all fighting for my attention.

    Heh hubby had a similar experiences once when I wasn;t here and once when I was on his arm and some bitch was giving him IOI’s like crazy, I was going to slap her so badly….) but this is not gender exclusive I got a lot of offers from men when I revealed I was dating a gringo, some were really surprising and one of them even told me that he was planning to marry me once he was done sleeping around…because you know is not like I had a say on the matter he assumed I was going to take him because he was oh so hot…I was laughing about it for a week how can someone make plans without even talking to the other person or getting to know her? Crazy people is crazy.

  • deti

    M3 at 194:

    Nailed it. A MC or college educated woman reaches the late 20s, decides she wants a baby. Enter beta provider: steady job, promising prospect. She gets to marry him, get pregnant and have a bab(ies).

    Since she’s MC or up, she needs to be married first and foremost because of stigma. She can’t be a single mom. Her parents are probably still married to each other and will frown on this lifestyle choice, as will her employer, her GFs and her pastor/priest/rabbi/imam.

    If she’s a carousel rider, birth control has had it tamped down until she’s ready. If not, it hasn’t been a problem until the urge to reproduce kicked in.

    She’s smart and well-informed enough to know she can’t raise a child on her own. She won’t have the time or the money to do it by herself. Even if she has a good paying job she won’t have the time. If she has the time because she has a low paying job, she won’t have the money. She needs a man’s help, at least for the first few years, and she knows it.

    The easiest way to solve this problem is to find a beta provider, sex him up and marry him.

    Well done, M3.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Ha! Kate Bolick has a new TV show filming, which is about singlehood being “the destination, not the journey.” Feminists are turning lemons into lemonade by successfully convincing many young women that the single life is better than marital drudgery. That’s fine with me, it means less competition for the women who do want to marry.

    That’s going to make things even worse. Women will be tricked into thinking singlehood is the destination, and then when they get older realizing that it wasn’t the destination they should have chosen.

    I think the question of future time orientation really is the key. The woman who avoids casual sex is the woman who wants to marry is the woman who does marry. The woman who rides the carousel is impulsive and not particularly well suited to marriage in any case. She is likely to delay marriage too long or perhaps forever. And if she does decide to marry, she’s the least likely to go for a beta.

    I think the stuff about casual sex is overstated. Women don’t have that much casual sex. What is happening is women going for hot alphas for LTRs. Granted, some of these attempted LTRs end up as P&Ds. When she does decide to marry and notices her clock ticking, she’s going to get realistic pretty quick and go for a beta.

    I believe that alpha chasers stay alpha chasers. People don’t change, and women just have no incentive to marry a man they don’t love, in my view.

    I disagree with this. Some women (those with poor future time orientation) are going to chase alphas until the urgency begins to come in, and then they will learn the hard way and settle for betas.

    Granted, many women learn this pretty early on, but not everyone does.

  • deti

    M3: “Baby rabies.”

    SW: “I don’t think so, that just gets you unsexy sons (from the carousel rider’s perspective). A woman can go to a sperm bank and choose from among handsome donors of every conceivable ethnicity, religion and hair color. They can even select sperm by profession, i.e. doctor or lawyer. ***”

    Murphy Brown, is that you?

    Read my comment at 205 for how the unwashed masses, hoi polloi proletariat commoners live and reproduce.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Read my comment at 205 for how the unwashed masses, hoi polloi proletariat commoners live and reproduce.

      Do you mean these people?

      A MC or college educated woman

      Since she’s MC or up…

      She’s smart and well-informed

      And this:

      She won’t have the time or the money to do it by herself. Even if she has a good paying job she won’t have the time. If she has the time because she has a low paying job, she won’t have the money. She needs a man’s help, at least for the first few years, and she knows it.

      ???

      The unwashed masses are having their babies OOW without men, who haven’t stuck around to help.

      A MC or UMC college graduate would have both the money and time, assuming they don’t plan to be a SAHM. Some more likely scenarios:

      1. She has a well paying job and has her kid in 5 Star daycare, has an au pair, or drops the baby off at family day care (3 levels of affordability). Most of the MC and UMC women I know do this even with a husband.

      2. How does having a low-paying job give her more time? Most educated women work 9-5 for good pay and have their weekends free. If she’s high powered, see #1.

      Who do you think the clients are at sperm banks? Educated MC and UMC women.

  • Plain Jane

    Women and men need each other sexually and emotionally. For those with low libidos and those who get their emotional needs met through family and friends, or have low emotional needs, there’s nothing they need a romantic relationship for.

    Kate Bolick is still attractive, she could still get married if she wanted to. But once you get past a certain age, you are “fixed” so to speak. You are no longer willing to compromise your priorities to go half and half with another individual. Living closely in the same space with someone else requires a lot of compromise of personal space, time, routine, habits, etc.
    People who are set in their ways prefer not to do this. And we become more and more set in our ways as we age.

  • Desiderius

    “If this is Weimar-ripoff now, will we have a Fourth Reich in the near future? This isn’t a nasty/sarcastic question, I’ve heard somebody else predict this for the U.S.”

    There are two differences.

    We’re certainly doing the things that usually spark hyper-inflation, but we’re not seeing that (the progressives say we’re just fending off what would have been massive deflation).

    We were not just utterly humiliated by a bad peace after a war many believed could have been won.

    The future is not ours to know – despair is arrogance.

    It is on men to provide the courage required to resist it.

    THAT is why women need men.

  • Desiderius

    I like Neely’s title better than the title of this post, but OW more great stuff from S. Walsh.

  • deti

    Susan:

    “I don’t understand the mentality of “I would do it all so differently, based on what didn’t happen to me!””

    That’s a mischaracterization of what he said, and I think you know it is. It’s “I would do it all so differently if I had known what could happen to me if my wife decides to pull the trigger. She could do it at any time and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it, even though I played by all the rules and still do.”

    It seems pretty clear to me that Joe Blow is disappointed with his choice, even though he admits she is a good wife. Isn’t this the kind of frivolous unhaaaaaaaaaapiness you deplore?

    You can mock He Who Shall Not Be Named if you wish. Leaving that aside, I don’t sense disappointment in his choice of wife. He made it clear it isn’t personal to her, yet Iggles took it that way. (Yet another example of how men and women communicate differently.) I sense disappointment that he wasn’t told the truth and that had he known the truth, he would have done things differently.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      “I would do it all so differently if I had known what could happen to me if my wife decides to pull the trigger. She could do it at any time and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it, even though I played by all the rules and still do.”

      But why complain if it’s not an issue? I don’t understand what Joe’s beef is. He says he is married to a good woman. It doesn’t sound like there’s any risk at all of her leaving. Yet he says his marriage is just OKAY. That is a perfect description of what you call a frivolous attitude. By this logic, no one in Massachusetts would have married under our horrendous alimony laws, yet we have one of the highest marriage rates in the country, and the lowest divorce. Terrible alimony laws aren’t an issue if you’re not getting divorced.

      You can mock He Who Shall Not Be Named if you wish.

      I was mocking you, as I believe you are very fond of that spelling and have used it frequently in comments.

      Leaving that aside, I don’t sense disappointment in his choice of wife. He made it clear it isn’t personal to her,

      Not personal to her? Would he gladly show her that comment and expect her to be pleased? Of course it’s personal to her! He’s saying outright that if he could do it all over again, including having his children (!!!!!!) he would take a pass. My God, I can’t imagine my husband saying that. You just don’t talk that way about someone you love and/or respect. That’s not normal male communication, in my experience.

      He regrets marrying her and having a family with her.

      If you don’t call this frivolous, that is pure hypocrisy. I’ve seen you criticize women for far, far less.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    Ooops my bad; here’s my actual response:

    @Ms. Walsh #201:
    “I don’t think so, that just gets you unsexy sons (from the carousel rider’s perspective). A woman can go to a sperm bank and choose from among handsome donors of every conceivable ethnicity, religion and hair color. They can even select sperm by profession, i.e. doctor or lawyer. My son had a fraternity brother in college with red hair, and despite what they say about gingers, he was in great demand for sperm donations and was paid handsomely. He was pre-med, high GPA, Irish Catholic, red hair. A sperm donor superstar.”

    O: I wonder how this breaks down along yes I’m going to say it, racial lines(?). My guess is that this is primarily a White/Jewish thing, although I could be mistaken in that. From my vantage point here, most Women get their sperm donations the old fashioned way…which brings something else to mind…

    What we’re not supposed to notice – and loudly speak upon – is the fact that often, the Women who avail themselves of the turkeybaster, are well…unattractive. Certainly so in most cases to get the choice sperm deposits they most desire. For example, I’m reminded of Lori Gottlieb; she’s at best, a 5. Not consigned to spinsterhood on its own on account of this, but definitely puts her at a disadvantage in terms of the kinds of guys she wanted. I think this is at the root of many of the problems in today’s SMP – Women not knowing how to stay in their lane, so to speak.

    “A woman with her own income would surely prefer raising her designer baby alone, with hired help, than share a bed and a life with a boring joe who is a constant irritant, no? (Again, I speak from the hypothetical female’s perspective.)”

    O: Yes, but therein lies the rub – all of that costs some serious loot, which the vast majority of Women simply do not have. Plus, there have been studies (which are buried, in true Robert Putnam fashion) that show that Test Tube Baby Mamas have it about as tough as their inner city counterparts when you shake it all out – the money issues, time management and that’s just for starters. One of the other big buried stories of our time is the fact that many of the first or second cohorts of Test Tube Babies are coming of age and want to know their daddies. Of course the feminist ideologues, to say nothing of the Test Tube Baby industry don’t want us to know anything about this for the usual reasons…

    “I would absolutely consider the turkey baster route over a meh marriage if I wanted children and did not plan to marry.”

    O: Again, the big difference is the cost versus the risks. Its not cheap to do this, and there are a lot more failures than successes in terms of pregancies that come to term, etc. I predict that many more middle class and up White Women will simply ape what the Sistas and Latinas are currently doing – get a willing sperm donor and get er done the old fashioned way…

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Desi #200:
    “Since I’ve started dating my guy, 2 different women have come out of the woodwork to profess feelings for him. Coincidentally, these professions happened within a day or two of him introducing me to them. He’s known one woman for about 15 years, and the other woman is someone he was in a recent theatre production with. I’ve found it humorous and very in line with game teachings.”

    This phenomenon has really reached comic proportions. In one of the groups (around 100 people, mostly 24-34) I hang out with, the youngest (24) decided she liked my look one night last year when we were out at the opera and started acting like we were a couple for awhile. The rest of the night, five other women who had previously been lukewarm toward me were all fighting for my attention.”

    O: Behold the mighty power of Preselection; God, how I love the Game…

    O.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    He made it clear it isn’t personal to her, yet Iggles took it that way.

    Everytime I talk to my husband about the issues of the manosphere he tells me he doesn’t care that much because he is safe from all that by marrying me. I do think his wife should take it personally happily married men don’t fear the plug plugging ever no matter what is happening to other men, men have a blind spot as mentioned here in many issues “This happens to them, it will never happen to me, ever” so Iggles and Susan got the right call on that one too, IMO.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #188:
    “But what do they need them for? They’re allegedly riding the alpha carousel through their 20s as they pursue degrees and careers. Why would they need a salaried husband they don’t find attractive just because they’re 30?”

    O: Oh come on, Ms. Walsh; you know good and well how fierce intrasexual female competition is. Many Women can and will get married if for no other reason that one or more of her girlfriends got hitched and she didn’t. In fact, this happens a heck of a lot more than we would like to admit. And that’s just for starters. Lots of Women marry for reasons other than “love” all the time, and this has always been the case.

    “The stigma around staying single is minimal today, so that’s not it. If they wanted to marry, they would have made that a priority earlier, so that can’t be it.”

    O: See above for but a few examples…

    O.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    I hear men saying that women are increasingly finding men disposable, and then turning around and saying they’re marrying men they don’t love for the money. What am I missing?

    Being a single mom is hard and while a certain group of women (college educated urban women under 20) out earn men most single mothers don’t. Even college educated women who are single mothers are at a disadvantage in terms of absenteism and other issues.

    So, nearly all women who are single mothers need held and income support to maintain a pre-child standard of living.

    For women whose chose to make babies with “fun” guys who don’t stick around finding a responsible man to help them maintain the life they had prior to baby (and to get some sleep).

    Project your life and imagine raising your two kids without their dad. You’re college educated (hell, MBA) and UMC. Would your life be half as good materially or in terms of time if you were single?

    So, no, single women who don’t have children don’t need men. Single women who have children often do. That’s what you’re missing.

    What’s odd is that was true a century ago but people knew that and encouraged single women to get the man before the children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      One of the reasons that UMC marriages last is that they are consumption marriages. The standard of living is very much improved for both parties.

      Frankly, I don’t know why any man would even consider marrying a woman who already has children if he has any doubts about her financial motives. But I don’t think those are the women described by the beta provider meme. That’s usually described the way it has been in this thread – ride the carousel through your 20s, hit the wall, find out no one wants your saggy 30 year old ass, and snag a hapless beta for the decline.

      The beta provider is responsible for his own happiness. No one is putting a gun to his head.

  • Plain Jane

    “I have seen many couples in advanced old age who were not married. I was married and did not get to successfully build my life together with the person i loved. Problems inherent to the system led to it. Marriage is a piece of paper which puts a legal noose around a mans neck with which a woman can pull the trapdoor to at any time. Until this is resolved, i find marriage to be less conducive to the ideal you ascribe to than cohabitation.”

    Co-sign.

    The way to “resolve” it is to do away with legal marriage altogether. Let people decide for themselves how they want to couple up and the parameters of the union (monogamy or other forms of gamy). They can draw up contracts if they wish, and it might be advisable to if the do in fact plan to have kids together, otherwise plain ol’ co-habitation is fine.

  • deti

    Ana:

    You know what a lot of men coming to the manosphere say about their divorces?

    “I never saw it coming.”

    “I never thought this would happen to me.”

    “I wasn’t prepared at all for this.”

    “I thought things were great. I had no idea she was so unhappy.”

    I’m not saying any of this applies to you or your husband. I’m saying a lot of men report these same things — that they were completely blindsided when their wives decided to divorce them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m saying a lot of men report these same things — that they were completely blindsided when their wives decided to divorce them.

      Do you recall the study where men had no idea while the women had a very clear idea? The researchers suspected the men pled ignorance to deny their own bad behavior in the marriage.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Plain Jane,
    “OK Susan, but how does my comment re “maybe she’s just not that into you” not make sense? When young men who choose to go into religious communes get labled as “bad boys” just because they don’t go the typical route, as well as surfers or long hairs, or whatevers getting labled “thugs” because some guys are jealous the girls they liked chose them instead, something is off.”

    O: It isn’t; what Ms. Walsh was talking about was your insistence on discussing things like Indian life, etc that have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the topic(s) under discussion.

    Besides, you really do need to address what I said to you on page one of this thread; can’t wait to hear back from ya. ;)

    O.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #193:
    “I agree that I haven’t studied non-college bound crowd, but that very definitely includes the middle class. IIRC, I recently provided you with the percentage of 2011 high school graduates who enrolled in college: 68.3

    That 2/3 of the population is going to experience hookup culture, with its distinctive features on college campuses. The 1/3 that does not go to college will have a very different experience, and may have casual sex, OOW births, etc. at a high rate, but they will not experience hookup culture per se.

    I write about hookup culture.”

    O: Yes, you most certainly do; but the problem is, that “hookup culture” is not in any way new. In the Black community, hookup culture has been extant for decades, they just don’t call it that. One of the terms used is “we’re just kickin’ it”. Dating and courtship died in the Black community a long way back.

    What’s “new” is SWPL folk like yourself “discovered” it due to the “mission creep” upwards along class and racial lines, and this will continue to play itself out beyond the college campus in predictable ways, if Black America is any indication.

    Nothing more.

    O.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Deti 205

    Thank you sir and you summed up and expanded my two word response perfectly.

    There is still a stigma to a woman going to the bank for genes she wasn’t able to accrue through her own natural feminine ability. Akin to a man having to go out and pay for sex from a prostitute, not being good enough to get real sex voluntarily from a woman.

    And the realization that you will be doing it all on your own, without a man to help out. Children require ooodles of cash, only the very well off women could afford it, and that’s with massive state sponsored programs in place.

    No. All one need to do is look at the profile disparity of the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings on Plenty of Fish to see the joke for what it is. All the girls in the 20′s talk about wingmen, their careers, travel, having fun, etc… all their profiles state open/undecided for the ‘having children’ option. Then you see the influx of 30 somethings all having the same cookie cutter profile. Ready to settle down, done with the games, done with the one night stands, looking for the soulmate, looking for mr. right, mr. dependable, mr. everything. Only serious enquirers only. And all of them have “WANTS CHILDREN”.

    Edited to remove link.

    Specifically:
    “Should men feel obliged to tell potential LTR material upfront (or within a reasonable time period) if they never intend to reproduce? What if she’s in her mid-thirties and her clock is ticking? Callously waste her time or cut her loose?

    I would advise men to callously waste her time, write a guest post about it, and send it to me so I can publish it while we all laugh at her. If we did that more often, there’d be far less women wasting their good years partying and sleeping around then passing their used up carcass off to some poor beta. I just had a vasectomy, and once the doctor clears me as shooting blanks, I’m going to play the “I really want to have children” game like a champ. Keep in mind that when I meet a sweet 22 year old girl with traditional values who tells me she wants marriage and children, I don’t even ask her out. I let her walk away so she can find a “nice guy” to settle down with. But let some 34 year old party or career chick roll up to me and say the same thing, and its game on. I don’t think I could feel bad about it even if I tried. Every moment of her time I can waste and get her closer to the grave is a moment of time she can’t snag an unsuspecting beta for marriage. I consider it my duty and a great honor to waste as much of her time as I can.”

    Priceless.

  • Desiderius

    “I know Ted D wants me to address those women, but the truth is they don’t read HUS, and I don’t know anything about their lives. My niche is college educated women and men, and the stats and studies I use focus on that group whenever possible.

    Remember, my goal is not to fix the SMP. My goal is to help individuals get rewarding relationships.”

    If the top gets fixed (helping good women develop attraction for, and spark attraction in, good men, and reforming the laws to support them instead of discouraging them, in their union), then the rest will follow.

    The alpha females call the tune, the beta females dance. Watch the last scene in Young Adult to see this dynamic at its worst. That’s where we are – the only way to go is up.

  • Mike C

    Everytime I talk to my husband about the issues of the manosphere he tells me he doesn’t care that much because he is safe from all that by marrying me. I do think his wife should take it personally happily married men don’t fear the plug plugging ever no matter what is happening to other men,

    Question for you, and please don’t take this personally towards you, but how many men who do in fact get fucked over do you think go into it thinking “I’ve got nothing to worry about with her”. Amongst the men in various places who do share their stories there is almost a universal statement of “I never thought she was capable of that” in terms of behavior down the road if a woman ever falls “out of love” with the man. In terms of “happily married men” I think there is a middle ground position between complete naivete and nihilistic cynicism. On another blog that shall not be named we are actually having a fascinating discussion about things like unconditional love, that a man often looks for in woman that unconditional love his mother gave him, and that is unrealistic in that the love from a woman is in fact conditional, and guys would do better to understand that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      how many men who do in fact get fucked over do you think go into it thinking “I’ve got nothing to worry about with her”.

      How many men get fucked over by women who showed red flags like crazy before they married? Maybe the men were naive, maybe feminists lied to them. We are all still responsible for our own choices. It’s exactly the same as the woman who marries the reformed player and then plays the victim when he cheats.

      a man often looks for in woman that unconditional love his mother gave him, and that is unrealistic in that the love from a woman is in fact conditional, and guys would do better to understand that.

      True, a mother will still love the son on Death Row. A wife would probably not.

      Seriously, why would any man think that a woman will love him no matter what he does or how he behaves? The most we can do is make an oath in good faith. If the man breaks that faith, the oath is null and void.

      My husband’s love for me is conditional. How could it not be? What if he discovered I was on Ashley Madison? He’d say, “I don’t even know you anymore.” And he’d be right.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      On another blog that shall not be named we are actually having a fascinating discussion about things like unconditional love, that a man often looks for in woman that unconditional love his mother gave him, and that is unrealistic in that the love from a woman is in fact conditional, and guys would do better to understand that.

      I had insomnia last night, and found myself stewing over this comment, so I wanted to say something.

      First, there’s a strong flavor here of male supremacy (or female inferiority if you prefer). I haven’t looked at the convo, so I can’t be sure where you are having it, but this is not welcome here, even second hand. If it’s Rollo, he peddles a very adversarial view of gender relations, and it’s the opposite of what I’m trying to do here.

      Second, I categorically reject Rollo as a source of information about women or female nature. Of all the male bloggers, he is the second to least informed, IMO. He has no credibility here.

      Third, I know you are not a fan of binary comparisons, so I’m surprised you would share this view. For the record, I do not consider gaining 50 lbs. in the same ballpark as infidelity or serial murder. For you to stop loving your wife as the result of a weight gain would be cruel, although it’s certainly not unheard of:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amy-nathan/being-hip_b_1860909.html

      As I said, I believe that love is conditional, we are all capable of destroying the love our partners feel for us. Furthermore, I want it to be conditional. Believing that my husband would be in love with me no matter what I did or how I behaved is a form of supplication, pedestalization and a massive shit test fail.

      I have heard that men take longer to get over a breakup than women do. I don’t know the reason, but it doesn’t surprise me that we’re wired differently in this area as well as others. Judging this in moral terms is not constructive, IMO. No correction to “femcentrism” is required.

      Finally, it’s none of my business, but I do not understand why you drink Machiavellian KoolAid when you are engaged to be married. Roissy would be a better choice for LTR advice. In any case, please don’t share those ideas here.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    I agree that I haven’t studied non-college bound crowd, but that very definitely includes the middle class. IIRC, I recently provided you with the percentage of 2011 high school graduates who enrolled in college: 68.3

    Two points, first enrolled is not finished. Lots of women don’t finish college and lack the career advantage it gives. Some of them (you had a long thread about one here on HUS) don’t finish because they become single mothers. Second, even if they do finish it will be as non-traditional student. A significant fraction of that 2/3s will enter as non-traditional student. Those who finish as non-traditional student (regardless of traditional or non-traditional entry) with kids in tow. I went to college 85-86, dropped out and spent 9 years in the Navy, and then finished in 95-97. In my graduating class I was one of seven (if memory serves) math majors, none of us was a traditional student, and at least two had children (including one single mom who, to be honest, if I hadn’t been married I would have pursued).

    These women are much more likely to have at least tried the alpha-daddy (that’s how they got kids)/beta-wallet strategy than a traditional HS->College->job woman. You are really speaking only to the last group and leaving out a lot of “had some college” or “finished college as an adult” or “did all of college as an adult” women.

    Yet many men, even those who do HS->College->job, will wind up doing a great deal of dating those subgroups, often due to issues we discuss here and you admit exist. A man with a college degree has status relative to a woman who doesn’t much more than he does with a woman who does. The 5-6s who got no attention from college girls often won’t from those same women the first couple of years out of school. He’ll have much better luck with the receptionist than the college girl in the cube next to him.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’m not saying any of this applies to you or your husband. I’m saying a lot of men report these same things — that they were completely blindsided when their wives decided to divorce them.

    And they are totally justified on avoiding a second run, but you are proving my point: A man that is still married and is saying that marriage is a trap and he wouldn’t had chosen it if he knew before man, is a man that is already unhappy on the marriage the happy men are like you say are blindsided, so something about his anti marriage stance is off. Even Athol says that the default mode of a man is not marry till a woman convince him otherwise he doesn’t preach never marry or that he wouldn’t had married Jennifer if he had a know what he knows know, don’t you think that is a huge difference?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Anacaona 211

    I luv you darling but…

    .. if i had any thoughts in my head that my marriage would have imploded…

    .. do you think i would have bothered getting married?

    For 8 months i was the most happily f*cking married person you would have ever seen.

    4 months later i was on HUS.

  • Mike C

    And I see Deti beat me to the punch with how blindsided most
    men with negative stories are

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #139:
    “1. Women expect way too much of men. They are responsible for their own happiness and personal growth.”

    O: Amin. Women are grownups. They should act like it.

    “2. Men fall in love sooner and more deeply than women do. They rely on women for emotional intimacy more than women rely on them.”

    O: Don’t know about this one; any scholarly evidence to back this up or are you just pulling this out of your…hat?

    “As a woman, have many outlets for emotional intimacy, including friends, family, my children and my husband. But my husband is by far the most important source, and has been a sensitive and empathic partner for 30 years.”

    O: I am very happy for you and yours.

    “I will say that if a woman wants a man to be in tune emotionally, she should avoid very dominant males, who generally have lower EQ than other males.”

    O: Again, I don’t know about that; personally, I’ve never been a very emotional person like that. My mom would always say that I was very formal and a bit aloof, even when I was a toddler. And I find that all that mushy stuff is overkill. It simply is not necessary most of the time.

    O.

    P.S.: Why have you taken down my responses to Ms. Plain Jane? You have not done this to anyone else’s responses. This, along with your taking down my responses to Ms. Ion and Ms. Iggles (even while you did nothing in terms of taking down or even chin-checking Ms. Ion’s repeatedly nonfactual comments about Black Men) do not reflect well on you.

  • Dan_Brodribb

    Hi Susan,

    Saw this article on college hookup culture and wondered what your take on it would be.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/boys-on-the-side/309062/#

    Hope everyone is well here. Congrats Hope, on your new arrival.

  • deti

    M3:

    “There is still a stigma to a woman going to the bank for genes she wasn’t able to accrue through her own natural feminine ability. Akin to a man having to go out and pay for sex from a prostitute, not being good enough to get real sex voluntarily from a woman.”

    That lays it all out, doesn’t it?

    I’ve heard it so many times from women:

    “All those men just wanted to f**k me. None of them wanted to marry me.”

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Question for you, and please don’t take this personally towards you, but how many men who do in fact get fucked over do you think go into it thinking “I’ve got nothing to worry about with her”

    And again I said that this men are totally right. But that the natural state of a happily married man is to think “It will never happen to me” no matter what so any married guy that is already in the cynical pass is showing regret. I’m not saying this is not justified regret it might be his wife is a bitch but is like someone complaining that I wouldn’t had become rich if I knew all the inconveniences it had, then you are not a happy millionaire don’t say you are… Capisce?

  • INTJ

    @ deti

    I sense disappointment that he wasn’t told the truth and that had he known the truth, he would have done things differently.

    That’s exactly what Iggles is complaining about. If he has a great wife, why is he disappointed? Obviously, he wouldn’t have risked marriage if he’d been told the truth. But he wasn’t told the truth, he did risk marriage, and the marriage did work out. So I don’t see what he’s disappointed about…

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh:
    “I know Ted D wants me to address those women, but the truth is they don’t read HUS, and I don’t know anything about their lives. My niche is college educated women and men, and the stats and studies I use focus on that group whenever possible.

    Remember, my goal is not to fix the SMP. My goal is to help individuals get rewarding relationships.”

    O; Your “goal” is a problem looking for a cause, because as we both know, the people who makeup your target group wind up doing just fine in the end; they aren’t hooking up with anybody for the most part on the campus and they find each other later in life and marry, and stay that way. Mission accomplished.

    I think you’re focusing on something else whether you know it or not/are honest about it or not. HBD plays a role.

    Btw, glad to see that you have once again endorsed HBD, for sex differences do indeed makeup a significant part of it.

    O.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ INTJ 224

    So I don’t see what he’s disappointed about…

    … YET.

    knock on wood it doesn’t happen. But many men have been in his position. It could work out or he could be on borrowed time.

    Had he all the information at hand at the beginning, he wouldn’t feel like he has to keep one eye open at night.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    A MC or UMC college graduate would have both the money and time, assuming they don’t plan to be a SAHM. Some more likely scenarios:

    1. She has a well paying job and has her kid in 5 Star daycare, has an au pair, or drops the baby off at family day care (3 levels of affordability). Most of the MC and UMC women I know do this even with a husband.

    2. How does having a low-paying job give her more time? Most educated women work 9-5 for good pay and have their weekends free. If she’s high powered, see #1.

    My PhD candidate sister is employed full time by the same university where her husband works. She’s pretty much top of the pay scale you can be in administration without the PhD. She’s had other universities try and poach her based on systems she’s setup. Their combined income put them in the top 10% of the US and they live in low cost of living East Texas.

    So she’s #1.

    Daycare also eats more than their rent and is their single biggest expense. If she was single (even though she makes the most of the two of them) it would approach half her income.

    I know multiple MC women who admit they work by choice because if you do the math on day care and other incidentals due to no SAHM they barely bring home any extra income.

  • deti

    M3:

    “And the realization that you will be doing it all on your own, without a man to help out. Children require ooodles of cash, only the very well off women could afford it, and that’s with massive state sponsored programs in place.”

    A MC and up woman late 20s early 30s former rider now foaming at the mouth with baby rabies knows this very well. Babies are expensive. it’s nothing but $$$$$$$ for formula, diapers, clothes they grow out of faster than you can say “alpha M3″ and health care. She knows she won’t have the money for that from her cubicle PR/HR/marketing job from which she will take 3 months unpaid leave under FMLA.

    Babies are time consuming. Two am feedings. Change em. Feed em. Bathe em. Watch em. Keep em from injuring or killing themselves. Play with em. Talk to em. Read to em. Love on em. Slather em with baby ointment. Respond to em crying/screaming/yelling and fix whatever’s causing it. She knows she won’t have the time for it without at least a little help from someone else.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    .. if i had any thoughts in my head that my marriage would have imploded…

    .. do you think i would have bothered getting married?

    This is what I meant you wouldn’t even entertain the idea right? That is why a man that drinks the red pill and gets antimarriage is probably not as happy as a you were. I mean look at Ted and Lokland they still tied the knot so again this is my point. The OP is not happy and wish he could eject but can’t because of the laws then his wife is doing a shitty job at being good.

    PS
    I actually ask my husband once in a while if he would had made a different choice, both for marrying me and the timeline of our first pregnancy. I do care about him being happily married with me and never saying “I wouldn’t had married you if I knew X” In fact disappointing him is on my top 3 things I fear the most, just FYI.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #232:
    “The unwashed masses are having their babies OOW without men, who haven’t stuck around to help.”

    O: Are you sure about this? Is this a well-referenced view, or just a personal opinion based on nothing scholarly? How do you know *why* said Men don’t “stick around to help”? Please explain?

    “A MC or UMC college graduate would have both the money and time, assuming they don’t plan to be a SAHM. Some more likely scenarios:

    1. She has a well paying job and has her kid in 5 Star daycare, has an au pair, or drops the baby off at family day care (3 levels of affordability). Most of the MC and UMC women I know do this even with a husband.”

    O: Yes, but by your own admission your circle is relatively small. How about MC/UMC White Women who live elsewhere in the country – say, the Midwest? Could Ms. Chris Faulkner, one of the Women featured in the NYT article “Two Classes, Separated By I Do” could have as easily pulled this off like your friends out in the New England northeast?

    “2. How does having a low-paying job give her more time? Most educated women work 9-5 for good pay and have their weekends free. If she’s high powered, see #1.”

    O: Indeed; and see my response to same…

    “Who do you think the clients are at sperm banks? Educated MC and UMC women.”

    O: Here again, we have to ask – *what kind of “educated, MC and UMC Women*? Are they the Chris Faulkners of the world, or not? Do you know?

    O.

  • Plain Jane

    Dan, from The Atlantic link you posted;

    “Here in America, the girls, they give up their mouth, their ass, their tits,” the Argentinean said to me, punctuating each with the appropriate hand motion, “before they even know the guy. It’s like, ‘Hello.’ ‘Hello.’ ‘You wanna hook up?’ ‘Sure.’ They are so aggressive! Do they have hearts of steel or something? In my country, a girl like this would be desperate. Or a prostitute.”

    So there we have it. America has unseated the Scandinavian countries for the title of Easiest Lay. We are, in the world’s estimation, a nation of prostitutes. And not even prostitutes with hearts of gold.”

    1. I disagree with the Argentinian. Sure, there are women acting like that in bars. But there are more women who are NOT acting like that in and especially out of bars.

    2. The second part about Americans being the Easiest Lay, one commenter here said the US is the most sexually conservative of the developed Western countries. Don’t know how he comes to that particular conclusion, but there you are.

    3. I think IIRC that Susan already blogged about this article.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    You discount the idea that a 30+ college woman with baby rabies would marry a chum she doesn’t love for kids because the sigma about single moms is gone.

    Then you keep pushing college people get married instead of having out of wedlock kids.

    Gee, could the idea you discount maybe be at least worth looking into based on the thing you keep pushing. Maybe single motherhood isn’t as acceptable for the college educated crowd as you want to think.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      You discount the idea that a 30+ college woman with baby rabies would marry a chum she doesn’t love for kids because the sigma about single moms is gone.

      Then you keep pushing college people get married instead of having out of wedlock kids.

      That’s apples and oranges.

      College people do have few OOW kids. That’s a statistical fact. They get married and they don’t divorce much. Let’s call these beta couples.

      College women who ride the carousel and chase alphas don’t find husbands. They can’t bear the thought of a beta chump so they go it alone. These are alpha non-couples.

  • Starviolet

    ” I talk to my husband about the issues of the manosphere he tells me he doesn’t care ”

    My husband says the same thing. He isn’t worried about sluts, divorce and whatever because he’s married to the right person.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Babies are time consuming. Two am feedings. Change em. Feed em. Bathe em. Watch em. Keep em from injuring or killing themselves. Play with em. Talk to em. Read to em. Love on em. Slather em with baby ointment. Respond to em crying/screaming/yelling and fix whatever’s causing it. She knows she won’t have the time for it without at least a little help from someone else.

    And I will add most women want to be around to do all this. Hard to do for a working single mother.

  • deti

    Susan:

    “A MC or UMC college graduate would have both the money and time, assuming they don’t plan to be a SAHM. Some more likely scenarios:

    1. She has a well paying job and has her kid in 5 Star daycare, has an au pair, or drops the baby off at family day care (3 levels of affordability). Most of the MC and UMC women I know do this even with a husband.

    2. How does having a low-paying job give her more time? Most educated women work 9-5 for good pay and have their weekends free. If she’s high powered, see #1.

    Who do you think the clients are at sperm banks? Educated MC and UMC women.”

    Obviously we’re approaching this from two different cultural and class perspectives here. No worries. I think I understand where you’re coming from.

  • Escoffier

    “saggy 30 year old ass”

    Once again I assert my M/GILF fetish. 30 sounds pretty good to me, and so does 40. I must be crazy.

    Very true about standards of living in the UMC. Divorce would be financially brutal for most couples, they just won’t recover and the kids will suffer a lot (in addition to the psychological pain).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      saggy 30 year old ass”

      Once again I assert my M/GILF fetish. 30 sounds pretty good to me, and so does 40. I must be crazy.

      Haha, to be clear I don’t think 30 year old asses are saggy – that’s just the standard ‘sphere claim.

  • Mike C

    But that the natural state of a happily married man is to think “It will never happen to me” no matter what

    Exactly. Probably 99.99999999999% of guys go into marriage with this state of “ignorance is bliss” mentality yet a good percentage eventually go through the meat grinder and get fucked over by women we “never saw it coming”. It happened to me, it happened to M3, and Deti has had his own issues where his wife blindsided him with info years down the road.

    I’m not denying that is the natural state. Most marriages go through some rough patches. Heck, Susan mentioned it herself with her husband and their sex life with the young kids. Now Susan is a good woman, and she got her act together when her husband called her on it and reprioritized their relationship. Do you think every woman takes that route? What if she had basically said fuck you the kids are my total priority now. What does he do then? He would be in that boat of “I never expected this from her”.

    but is like someone complaining that I wouldn’t had become rich if I knew all the inconveniences it had, then you are not a happy millionaire don’t say you are..

    I’m not arguing the point about whether a man who complains and bitches is happily married. But that isn’t the same thing as being totally oblivious and unaware to potential pitfalls. I could have a pitbull that I love dearly and I have a happy relationship with, but it would be stupid for me to think that I actually have a chincilla, and completely forget what that pitbull is capable of under a certain set of circumstances.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I could have a pitbull that I love dearly and I have a happy relationship with, but it would be stupid for me to think that I actually have a chincilla, and completely forget what that pitbull is capable of under a certain set of circumstances.

      The question is would you state that you would never choose your pitbull if you had to do it again, based solely on news reports of other pitbulls, and completely ignoring the reality that your pitbull is a gentle and loving companion?

  • Starviolet

    I think that women used to marry men that they didn’t love on a regular basis back when a woman had to get married, but it seems less likel to happen now. I’m not even sure that marrying a man that you don’t love is a bad thing, so long as their is mutual understanding, respect and common goals.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #239:
    “But why complain if it’s not an issue? I don’t understand what Joe’s beef is.”

    O: What’s so hard to grok about this, Ms. Walsh? I understood perfectly what Joe was saying – that marriage in our time is NOT a good deal for a lot of Men these days – and are indeed, slowly but surely, voting with their feet. This has been afoot in my neck of the woods for a good long minute, and, as predicted by my central thesis here at HUS and elsewhere, as Black America goes, so go the rest of the nation, this reaction is slowly working its way into and upward, in White America. The trend line will continue to creep upward for the foreseeable future.

    “He says he is married to a good woman. It doesn’t sound like there’s any risk at all of her leaving. Yet he says his marriage is just OKAY. That is a perfect description of what you call a frivolous attitude. By this logic, no one in Massachusetts would have married under our horrendous alimony laws, yet we have one of the highest marriage rates in the country, and the lowest divorce. Terrible alimony laws aren’t an issue if you’re not getting divorced.”

    O: This is a good point. Perhaps Joe will answer in a more candid fashion. I for one would very much like to hear it.

    “Not personal to her? Would he gladly show her that comment and expect her to be pleased? Of course it’s personal to her! He’s saying outright that if he could do it all over again, including having his children (!!!!!!) he would take a pass. My God, I can’t imagine my husband saying that. You just don’t talk that way about someone you love and/or respect. That’s not normal male communication, in my experience.”

    O: Maybe not, but as I recall, there was a news story making the rounds about a year or two ago, that reported the results of a poll taken among Women as to whether if they had to do it all all over again, would they had married their hubbies, and I believe the results were an overwhelming NO. Why now all the agita over what Joe said?

    Look, a lot of people have expectations of marriage that simply do not pan out. Not saying it’s right or wrong or anything in-between; it just is. I think Joe is just saying, honestly, what quite a few guys are really thinking but are hanstrung in our current PC “make Women nod” environment. Meanwhile, entire news stories can go out about Women in reverse, with nary a peep outta anyone about it…

    “He regrets marrying her and having a family with her.”

    O: I’m not so sure; we should wait to hear what he has to say about that…

    “If you don’t call this frivolous, that is pure hypocrisy. I’ve seen you criticize women for far, far less.”

    O: See my news story example above, and holla back

    O.

  • deti

    Susan:

    “If you don’t call this frivolous, that is pure hypocrisy. I’ve seen you criticize women for far, far less.”

    Frivolity is “I’m not happy” (no extra a’s so as to avoid mockery) and then divorcing.

    I can’t really call a man taking a hard cold look at the facts and the circumstances in which he finds himself and analytically saying he’d do it differently if he could.

    Why are you taking all this so personally and then calling me a hypocrite? Frankly I take offense to that. I’m here discussing an issue in the abstract. You’re personalizing it, inappropriately in my opinion.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why are you taking all this so personally and then calling me a hypocrite? Frankly I take offense to that. I’m here discussing an issue in the abstract. You’re personalizing it, inappropriately in my opinion.

      I’m not taking it personally, I’m calling out what I see as a double standard. Based on your commentary (here, but mostly elsewhere) I would say you are quick to pull the trigger in criticizing female behavior, and exaggerating it as universal or nearly so. If Joe Blow was a woman, I think you would respond very differently. If I’m wrong, you have my apology.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #245:
    “Do you recall the study where men had no idea while the women had a very clear idea? The researchers suspected the men pled ignorance to deny their own bad behavior in the marriage.”

    O: While this is certainly possible, *we don’t know that for certain*. Instead, why not try actually talking to the Men involved as to what they think about the matter? Why not even entertain the notion that they just might be telling the truth here – especially if so many Men from so many walks of life and areas of the country/age are saying the same thing?

    Juking the stats, anyone?

    O.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Herb/ Mr. Nervous Toes/ et al.

    Seeking success in your professional life is much like a Mormon serving a mission abroad, the point of the mission is not to convert others, but to convert you. As side from the money, professional success teaches you how to be assertive, how to negotiate, and most importantly how to look at the world from a risk/ benefit and profit/loss basis. My point about options A and B was simply that most young men today are choosing option A because they cannot see (or are unwilling to wait for) the benefits of option B. Could a man do everything in option B and still find himself alone? Possibly, but all he has to do is carry over his experience from his work life to his professional life. As I previously mentioned, there are lots of woman everyday falling off the alpha-cock carousal and they are your practice girls; they are woman with whom a new found success can test out his assertiveness and dominance (essentially having the relationship all on his terms) without consequences because they are a dime a dozen and he doesn’t plan on marrying them. Once the man has built up his skill level he can move on to something better, he would in fact regained his masculinity. We have lost and distorted Victorian ideas about relationships; there is a difference between a woman and a lady and they should be treated as such; romantic love is for ladies and only ladies who reciprocate your love. One of my all times heroes of business is Henry Flagler. Flagler was a partner of Rockefeller and considered to be one of the toughest SOB in business ever to live, he loved nothing more than bankrupting competitors; he had a sign above his desk that read “Do unto other as they would do unto you, but do it first”. Yet, every night Flagler went home to the bedside of his ill wife and read her bible verse until she went to sleep. After she died Flagler married two young beautiful women who thought they would outlive him and inherit his fortune; he outlived the first and left the second only a modest inheritance with the bulk of his estate going to his son and niece. Was Flagler an alpha or just behaving differently when dealing with woman or ladies?

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    Frankly, I don’t know why any many would even consider marrying a woman who already has children.

    You can only dance with the women who come to the ball. I’m not allowed in the one with the girls who didn’t get knocked up and are at least average in attractiveness.

    But I don’t think those are the women described by the beta provider meme. That’s usually described the way it has been in this thread – ride the carousel through your 20s, hit the wall, find out no one wants your saggy 30 year old ass, and snag a hapless beta for the decline.

    Yes, but you asked why women would do that specifically in response to me when I said that having the majority of women who show interest in you will shape how you see women romantically.

    I know there are lots of guys like me. It doesn’t matter if the cute receptionist at the auto-dealership always meant to screw the hot salesman and have their baby before settling down with the IT guy or if she just liked to screw hot salesmen then learned they didn’t care if they spawned children. What does matter to me is that cute receptionist is 1000% more likely to show interest in me than he BFF in HS who graduated with me from Eastern.

    Going back to the start of this whole line, I played by the rules (choice B in a post way back) and the best offers are to be part of a woman’s string of guys or the consolation prize to the girl who got the alpha’s baby but not the alpha. Men who think being the guy with the forward orientation who gets a good job and then in his 30s gets the quality pussy is deceiving himself. If there are women worth getting out there then if you don’t by the time they’re 25 you won’t.

    Thinking the long game will get you wife because now you have something to offer is a fool’s game. Having something to offer only attracts the gold diggers and the ne’er do wells.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Susan 230

    Not personal to her? Would he gladly show her that comment and expect her to be pleased?

    That’s why he’s here venting on HUS and not her. He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings with the realization of what female nature is and what he’s up against. Yeah she’d take it personally, even tho his ire is not directed AT her, but at learning what the system can do to him if she goes feral.

    And let’s get real. How many things do women and wives/gf’s/so’s say about their men behind their back that would not be taken personally by the guys…

    or do we have to bring up the ugly boyfriend and dick joke comment thread up again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings with the realization of what female nature is and what he’s up against.

      But he’s not up against anything, because he married a good woman. That’s why his ire is not understandable. He married a good woman, but says his marriage is just OK. He wouldn’t even marry her or have his children if he could do it again.

      There are obviously details we don’t have here, and since he claims she is a good woman, I can only assume the fault lies with him.

      or do we have to bring up the ugly boyfriend and dick joke comment thread up again.

      Seriously, you want to compare 20 year olds joking in the girls’ locker room to a man going online and announcing he regrets his marriage and the birth of his children?

      OK, I’ll stop here. I do not believe that you are deti are objective. I understand why, but it’s not a good use of anyone’s time to debate this.

  • deti

    “The beta provider is responsible for his own happiness. No one is putting a gun to his head.”

    Most beta providers didn’t even know they were beta providers until they came here or to the manosphere.

    Most beta providers didn’t know what a beta provider was until they got educated about it.

    Most beta providers had only an inkling of something being amiss until they came to a site like olloR’s or kcorlaD’s and discovered that, well, yes, there might be some truth to their misgivings and, yes, something might be off in their relationships or marriages, and well, yes, your relationships keep failing because of YOU and and your beta behaviors.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Whether a man is alpha or beta should not affect his ability to choose a woman of good character who is not marrying him for his steady paycheck! Honestly, if this is so difficult, marriages should be delayed even further, because it sounds like men are not properly vetting their spouses before rushing into ill advised marriages.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @HerrKaiser

    Could a man do everything in option B and still find himself alone? Possibly, but all he has to do is carry over his experience from his work life to his professional life.

    Two points:
    1: http://xkcd.com/55/ . Want me to model the financial markets, write Perl models to interface data systems, or create a VMS style file system for Linux I’m your guy. That’s what I got successful doing. Learning how to operate and arrange logical system. Women don’t work that way.

    2. As I’ve said many times, if I have to Game a woman so hard it’s a second job just to keep her what’s the fucking point. I have a job. If I take a second one it better be fun and pay well. A woman you have to Game to death probably isn’t the former and definitely isn’t the later.

  • deti

    “I’m not even sure that marrying a man that you don’t love is a bad thing, so long as their is mutual understanding, respect and common goals.”

    Oy. You’ve GOT to be kidding me.

    So would you be cool with a man telling you “I don’t love you, but I understand and respect you, and we have a common goal of great sex (until I no longer share that goal or until you hit The Wall or until I just don’t want to sex you anymore). Will you marry me?”

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think part of the issue re: SMP habits of empowered women with independent means involves the prevailing tendency to view a man as a kind of lifestyle enhancement product. So let’s say that we have a continuum of life activities that includes, on the very low end (1-3), high physicality/strength tasks like outdoors manual labor, heavy lifting, and protection.

    In the middle range (4-7) you have the basic everyday lifeway activities of working, commuting, shopping, meals, and so on.

    At the very high end (8-10), you have glamorous and exciting cultural activities and overseas trips.

    Well-educated, young career women really do not need men for 4-7, which is where the majority of a normal lifestyle will exist. In fact, some typical BF/husband-related male needs may be seen as detrimental, and the young woman may feel that she just doesn’t have time/energy for this stuff, it is quite boring and kills attraction, etc.

    They may still need, or at least really want, to have men around for 1-3 and for 8-10, but you can see the problem here: 1-3 is ideally filled by a powerful jock type, and 8-10 is ideally filled by an affluent, cosmopolitan guy. Finding them both in one specimen will be unusual and this guy will be in high demand. The hybrid results in a product specs template that we would associate with exciting-but-dangerous alphas of “high player risk” persuasion.

    The beta male template may really excel in 4-7, which makes him a better companion in the context of normal, domestic life, particularly if the economic scale/division of labor advantages of a gender-role traditional marriage are important. But if those traditional arrangements are seen as intrinsically negative for women, as I think they increasingly are, then the value proposition of the beta male helpmate is substantially, perhaps terminally, weakened.

    This is all just speculation on my part, but when I hear young women describe traits that they want in a man it usually does seem to be this stark, violently bifurcated list that is split between high-T athleticism, six-packs, big shoulders, etc. on the one hand, and jet-set high-glamor romance and conspicuous consumption of high-end luxury brands on the other.

    I’m not making a value judgment about this; if you have a primary car that works fine, your second car may tend to be more of specialist vehicle set up for heavy off-road use or a sleek performance car for the weekends.

  • Escoffier

    Re: being blind-sided, true, if my wife left me or cheated it would take me by complete surprise.

    But that’s because … she’s a good wife! She is and does everything that the sphere insists a good wife should be and do. She gives me no reason for suspicion or jealousy. She does not complain frivilously or slack off. She does not expect more from me than I can provide. And so on.

    What makes me scratch my head sometimes is the sense I get from some in the sphere that they are trying to sew suspicion and doubt in the minds of men everywhere. Look out! You may think you are not “that guy!” but you probably are! I thought so too and look what happened to me!

    I mean, what am I supposed to do, spy on her? What if I discover nothing untoward, can I have some faith in her then?

    Not directed at anyone here but at the meme, which some of the comments have glanced against.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #243:
    “One of the reasons that UMC marriages last is that they are consumption marriages. The standard of living is very much improved for both parties.”

    O: Yes, but here’s the trick – *this is NOT explicitly said in the many, many pieces about marriage in the MSM* (yet another reasonas to why I’m so fond of in your face explicitness). In fact I suspect that this is a much bigger factor in marriage among the White UMC than a whole heck of a lot of people would like to admit, because if they did (virtually all of whom actually work in the MSM, btw), it would then lead to a heck of a lot more “crimethink” stuff…and we can’t have any of thaaaat…”

    “Frankly, I don’t know why any man would even consider marrying a woman who already has children if he has any doubts about her financial motives.”

    O: Because, as I’ve been saying forever and a day now, a heck of a lot of Men out there are hapless Blue Pills who don’t get any action at all. Yes, what I said above is dead-on true. There is nothing wrong with your tv set.

    “But I don’t think those are the women described by the beta provider meme. That’s usually described the way it has been in this thread – ride the carousel through your 20s, hit the wall, find out no one wants your saggy 30 year old ass, and snag a hapless beta for the decline.”

    O: I think it comes a heck of a lot closer to what happens out on the bricks than you’re willing to admit, Ms. Walsh. I for one see it all the time.

    “The beta provider is responsible for his own happiness. No one is putting a gun to his head.”

    O: Agreed. He needs to get some Game, and get a life.

    O.

  • Plain Jane

    “Should men feel obliged to tell potential LTR material upfront (or within a reasonable time period) if they never intend to reproduce? What if she’s in her mid-thirties and her clock is ticking? Callously waste her time or cut her loose?

    M3′s answer:

    “I would advise men to callously waste her time, write a guest post about it, and send it to me so I can publish it while we all laugh at her. If we did that more often, there’d be far less women wasting their good years partying and sleeping around then passing their used up carcass off to some poor beta. I just had a vasectomy, and once the doctor clears me as shooting blanks, I’m going to play the “I really want to have children” game like a champ. Keep in mind that when I meet a sweet 22 year old girl with traditional values who tells me she wants marriage and children, I don’t even ask her out. I let her walk away so she can find a “nice guy” to settle down with. But let some 34 year old party or career chick roll up to me and say the same thing, and its game on.”

    Whoa! (and Susan please let this comment through moderation).

    That is an immoral, unethical, downright dirty attititude (Like Ted D I’m ok with judging people so don’t get all pc on me).

    First you are assuming a lot. You are assuming that the 30 something women are relentless carousel riders who’s only aim in life was to bed whomever she pleased in her 20s and purposely mislead a “hapless beta” in her 30s.

    You’re forgetting that there are many more women out here who did not have a different man every month (or weekend) but engaged in relationships with good men with the view for the long term and those relationships did not turn out as expected. I see this all the time and its neither one’s fault. They just grow apart, or distance gets in the way somehow – job transfers, going away to uni, whatever, life happens.

    There are also plenty of women out here who remained sexually conservative through their uni and early career years but put off serious husband hunting because they had a timeline; late teens/early 20s for education, early 20s to mid 20s career building, and they timelined marriage for mid to late 20s but they never fell in love.

    You will not find anyone on this blog cheering your idea of purposely misleading women who want to be mothers, no matter their age.

  • Lokland

    @Want to know

    “One last thing. My parents have been “Red Pill” for as long as I have known, there is a quote from Robert Jordan the author of The Wheel of Time series that always hangs on the refrigerator at my parents house that I use as a guide to my relationships.

    “If a woman is stronger than her husband, she comes to despise him. She has the choice of either tyrannizing him or else making herself less in order not to make him less. If the husband is strong enough, though, she can be as strong as she is as strong as she can grow to be.”

    You just became my favourite commenter. Only 4 more months and its over.

    BTW Susan. He does bring up a good point. The WoT series has quite a few solid points on male-female relationships (some you would very much dislike) . I doubt you’d want to read it all though. Book 14 due out in January.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I never heard of W o T. What am I missing?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    @ Susan 236

    Do you recall the study where men had no idea while the women had a very clear idea? The researchers suspected the men pled ignorance to deny their own bad behavior in the marriage.

    Anecdotal it may be, but it appears that ‘bad behavior’ is beta behavior.

    Whenever researchers start suspecting shit instead of actually proving shit, you end up with stupid conclusions.

    Marriage rates are in decline. I suspect it’s because women just don’t want to marry but fuck around.

    I’m not a researcher, i only play one on tv.

    When women are initiating 2/3rds of all divorces.. i would say damn well they have a very clear idea divorce is coming.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      No, bad behavior is not beta behavior. Here’s the study:

      http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/faculty/harvey/People's%20Reasons%20for%20Divorcing.pdf

      Consistent with expectations, women in this study were more likely to report problematic behavior on the part of their former husbands (infidelity, substance use, mental and physical abuse), and men were more likely to report that they did not know what caused the divorce.

      …Although it is possible that men are becoming more sensitive to relationship dynamics in marriage, we suspect that some men used general references to poor communication and other relationship problems to avoid admitting that their own misbehavior undermined the marriage.

  • Plain Jane

    “I’m not even sure that marrying a man that you don’t love is a bad thing, so long as their is mutual understanding, respect and common goals.”

    Its not a bad idea as long as its reinforced through the culture and everyone knows the score. That’s how it works in arranged marriage cultures and many couples grow to love each other very quickly.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I could have a pitbull that I love dearly and I have a happy relationship with, but it would be stupid for me to think that I actually have a chincilla, and completely forget what that pitbull is capable of under a certain set of circumstances.

    But the equivalent would be to say that you wouldn’t had gotten a pit bull if you know what you know now and got instead a chinchilla. If you say “I have a great pit bull but I would had gotten a chinchilla instead if I new what it took to care for it” does not compute.
    Really Mike C if you girlfriend said that if she knew what living with a man meant she would had never moved in with one, would you think of it as she making a commentary about relationships in general or about you as a domestic partner? Honest question.

  • Iggles

    @ Sassy:

    It will only get worse as she gets older. Pre-selection is one hell of a bitch to deal with.

    Since I’ve started dating my guy, 2 different women have come out of the woodwork to profess feelings for him. Coincidentally, these professions happened within a day or two of him introducing me to them. He’s known one woman for about 15 years, and the other woman is someone he was in a recent theatre production with. I’ve found it humorous and very in line with game teachings.

    Wow!

    The same thing happened when I started dating my boyfriend. At least one friend of his admitted to liking him. Others made comments that they didn’t know he was looking for someone (since we met online). He asked me why aren’t women direct when they’re interested.

  • Escoffier

    If after some protracted period of Deep Thought I concluded my marriage and the births of my children had been mistakes that if I could go back I would not let occur again, I don’t think I would tell anyone, least of all my wife.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Susan/ Ted

    A couple of months ago my friends sister hosted a party for University of California (Irvine, Riverside, LA) PhD graduates, one of the guest, a graduate, invited one of her friends to the party. The young woman was attractive, but she was 20 years old, had a 2 year old son (by a douchebag who abandoned her), a high school education, and was a medical receptionist. She met a young (28) Neurobiology grad at the party and they set-up a date for a later time. Someone at the party must have warned him, because about 30 minutes later, he came back over and told her “I didn’t know you had a kid, I cancelling the date”. After he walked away, she started to cry and became indignant say “he doesn’t have the right to do that”. My friend’s sister simply laughed in her face and said “he’s a neuro grad and you have a kid, why would he want you”. So there you have it, she has the alpha’s kid and feels morally entitled to the beta’s support. I am sure that was a bitter experience for her, but better that than the Grad string her along, raise her sexual partner count, and then drop her when he finds something better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HerrKaiser

      Fair enough, that’s a very good piece of anecdotal evidence. “He doesn’t have the right to do that?” Give me a break!

      Do you know, though, that she didn’t find him attractive, but was just looking for a reliable pair of helping hands?

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    I never heard of W o T. What am I missing?

    20,000 pages of over written, highly derivative fantasy. Step away from the bookstore.

  • Iggles

    @ Deti:

    Iggles, you ignored or didn’t see Joe’s next sentence which puts it all in context. He made it clear it wasn’t personal:

    “I’d have never settled down with her or anybody knowing what I know now about how the system is biased against me (against men generally).”

    I saw it, but I disagree that it puts everything into context.

    He’s a married person who is anti-marriage. As a spouse I would be devastated to know the person I’m married feels that way.

    I feel it’s totally fair to say the system is unfair and needs to be fixed. I completely wholehearted agree with that sentiment. But to say you would not have gotten married, thereby eschewing the life you made and children raised with your spouse, because the of the “system” is way harsh. And it doesn’t pass the smell test. I can’t imagine being in love with someone yet saying I wouldn’t married them — and instead ride the carousel — so I could save my money!

    For me, I guess it comes down to values. What’s more important in life? Money? Or love and family?

    It’s astounds me that married men wouldn’t focus on trying to fix the system instead of deciding being a single manwhore without responsibilities would be a better choice if they could do it all over again.

    @ SW:

    But if he selected well, why isn’t he thanking his lucky stars it worked out?

    I don’t understand the mentality of “I would do it all so differently, based on what didn’t happen to me!”

    My thoughts exactly!

    That doesn’t even make sense. It seems pretty clear to me that Joe Blow is disappointed with his choice, even though he admits she is a good wife. Isn’t this the kind of frivolous unhaaaaaaaaaapiness you deplore?

    Ha! And the same men complain about “Eat, Pray, Divorce”…

    @ M3:

    Anything that two people can do within a marriage they can do without. So give a guy a good compelling reason why he should play a game with better odds than getting hit by lightning?

    No dice!

    Joe Blow didn’t say, “Knowing what I know now I wouldn’t have married my wife — we would have raised a family without getting legally married.”

    He said if he had it do all over today that he would have been a bachelor, banged a variety of chicks, enjoy a responsibility-free life, and retire early with all the money he would have save NOT providing for a family.

    Two VERY different things, but he — like you — cited the system being unfair for opting out of marriage.. :roll:

  • HerrKaiser

    @Herb

    How do you deal with your subordinates? Treat woman as such; as I said before, being woman is not the same as being a lady.

  • deti

    “Seriously, why would any man think that a woman will love him no matter what he does or how he behaves?

    Because that’s what we were told. We were raised on it. Our parents, pastors, teachers and others in authority over us told us that’s how it works. You get married, you love each other NO. MATTER. WHAT. You stay together NO MATTER WHAT unless one of you cheats, beats or retreats.

    “for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for as long as you both shall live.”

    I was raised to believe this. I was told a woman’s love for a man is deep, abiding, and always, ALWAYS unconditional. I was told a wife’s love is the same way.

    That’s why.

    How do you know what love is?

    Because your mom and dad, and their friends, and your Reverend, and Second Grade Teacher Mrs. Jones, show and tell you so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How do you know what love is?

      Because your mom and dad, and their friends, and your Reverend, and Second Grade Teacher Mrs. Jones, show and tell you so.

      But growing up I could see that love was conditional. I saw people divorce, or more often remain unhappily married. I saw people who were not in love but had been at one point. I saw my parents get very angry with one another and during those fights there was no love.

      When I began dating I saw that emotions are fickle – mine, yes, but also guys’. Someone you’re crazy about today may be old news next month. You think someone is adorable, and then their high-pitched giggle begins to wear. A boy says I love you and you say it back and then find out he got Mary Lou pregnant down at the Tastee Freeze parking lot.

      Ultimately, by dating and practicing relationships, one learns what real love is (both given and received) and what threatens it. It is never unconditional, except between parents and children. Sometimes not even then.

  • Jonny

    @SusanW “I’m still not understanding. Women are outearning men. Why would they seek a provider when they are already doing well?”

    Women want things without considering the monetary cost. They may be outearning men, but they are not saving it. Men bare the cost.

    Men are expected to give women things like designer purses, clothing, jewelry, dinners, and trips. These are part of the package of expectations that women want from a relationship. Men provide them selflessly as the expectation in addition to maintaining the household with full amenitites. It’s not like the women give the men an allowance and say go do my bidding. Men are expected to earn such money and spend it to maintain the woman’s lifestyle.

  • Plain Jane

    Escoffee-er,
    “What makes me scratch my head sometimes is the sense I get from some in the sphere that they are trying to sew suspicion and doubt in the minds of men everywhere. Look out! You may think you are not “that guy!” but you probably are! I thought so too and look what happened to me!

    I mean, what am I supposed to do, spy on her? What if I discover nothing untoward, can I have some faith in her then?”

    HELLO! Well said.

    M3,
    “Marriage rates are in decline. I suspect it’s because women just don’t want to marry but fuck around.”

    Not necessarily fuck around but it does appear that adult Americans prefer more of their “own space” now than ever before.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Whether a man is alpha or beta should not affect his ability to choose a woman of good character who is not marrying him for his steady paycheck! Honestly, if this is so difficult, marriages should be delayed even further, because it sounds like men are not properly vetting their spouses before rushing into ill advised marriages.

    I think a big part of it aligns with my opinion that a lot of men truly believe that they can’t do any better or get anyone better. Instead of pursuing who they really want, despite the fear of being turned down, they settle for aging women or women with children.

    It is partially their own faults. A lot of times, the red flags are there from the very beginning. They just choose to ignore them.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #262:
    “Haha, to be clear I don’t think 30 year old asses are saggy – that’s just the standard ‘sphere claim.”

    O: That’s because the claim has a goodly degree of merit. And this is coming from someone who is a heck of a lot closer to Esco’s view than said ‘sphere’s.

    O.

  • deti

    Susan:

    “announcing he regrets his marriage and the birth of his children”

    He didn’t say that. Respectfully, that’s your subjective interpretation of it.

    What he said was:

    “My feelings about marriage are not about her; it’s about what I’ve seen in the 20 years since we got married. I’d have never settled down with her or anybody knowing what I know now about how the system is biased against me (against men generally).”

    Again:

    “not about her”
    “I’d have never settled down with her OR ANYBODY knowing what I know now”

    This is clear, at least to me. It’s not personal. It’s about the system, not the individual woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      The fact remains that a man whose wife is good and loyal has no reason to enter a state of high anxiety re family law. If he had a do-over, he would not marry her, nor presumably have his children, while he would have plenty of NSA sex.

      Sorry, it stinks.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    When women are initiating 2/3rds of all divorces.. i would say damn well they have a very clear idea divorce is coming.

    I don’t think most men know this and asking around most people assume that all divorces are of bad men that tricked poor women, I had an interesting moment with a female friend who I mentioned a friend of hubby that needed to get some cheer up because his ex wife just moved across the country with his only son she was like “That is probably a terrible man for her to do so” I explained to her that she discovered she was a lesbian and that is why they divorced, she just nodded on silent” the fact that in this culture divorce is always the man’s fault it means that not they don’t know, IME.

    @HerrKaiser

    I wish more men were open about single mothers or/and sluts being deal breakers I think that will help more than pumping and dumping so their sisters will know that is a bad deal and limits their choices of men. The truth will set you free or so they say.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @HerrKaiser

    How do you deal with your subordinates? Treat woman as such; as I said before, being woman is not the same as being a lady.

    Ah, yes, the women are children theory of Game. Assuming I have to treat a woman I supposedly love like the subordinates I’ve had (the only place I had them was running a Domino’s) no thank you. Like I said, I have a job and if I take a second it had better be fun and pay well.

    This is especially true given my employees at the Domino’s knew they were employees and not some “go girl” hoped up on “I’m the equal of every man” juice. If the only way to be attractive to women is to treat them like subordinates then they are, in fact, my inferiors.

    Then again, my whole life I’ve been told white men oppress all the world’s women and minorities and need to stop it. Given white men are at best 5% of the world’s population if we are oppressing the other 95% and the most they can do is insist we stop then maybe we are superior. :)

  • Plain Jane

    “She met a young (28) Neurobiology grad at the party and they set-up a date for a later time. Someone at the party must have warned him, because about 30 minutes later, he came back over and told her “I didn’t know you had a kid, I cancelling the date”. After he walked away, she started to cry and became indignant say “he doesn’t have the right to do that”. My friend’s sister simply laughed in her face and said “he’s a neuro grad and you have a kid, why would he want you”. So there you have it, she has the alpha’s kid and feels morally entitled to the beta’s support. I am sure that was a bitter experience for her, but better that than the Grad string her along, raise her sexual partner count, and then drop her when he finds something better.”

    It wasn’t the fact he cancelled the date, it was the extremely rude way he did it. He could have simply taken her aside and explained politely that while he finds her attractive and nice, he’s not prepared to get involved with someone who’s a parent.

    She would not have cried, and he would have had the experience of effectively communicating his position within the parameters of civility and culture.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Susan 258

    He doesn’t want to hurt her feelings with the realization of what female nature is and what he’s up against.

    But he’s not up against anything, because he married a good woman. That’s why his ire is not understandable.

    What he’s up against is a legal system that will destroy him IF the she isn’t. She’s a good woman. Great. We all get that. Again.. so was mine. If i have to break it down for you in all the intimate details for you then i will, tho i don’t see the need why. My wife was sweet, cuddly, caring, nurturing and supportive right up to and very shortly after the wedding. The only major egregious sign was her threat to terminate our budding relationship because i refused to guarantee a want of children right off the hop. ELSE she was what the manosphere requirements list contains.

    Shortly after the wedding it 180′d with personality shifts, lifestyle demands and unreasonable requests especially given after the economic crash of 08. Once she decided to pull the trigger i was f*cked legally even after a not year long marriage. How is that even effin possible in a sane civilized society. If i knew of the manosphere, (which led me to HUS) prior to getting married, with it’s infinitely vast amount of knowledge and information, more than my brother ever could have relayed to me (all he said was Gene Simmons was laughing at me)… you can be damn sure i would never have signed up for it. EVER!

    Blaming Joe for feeling the way he does with the facts at hand is like telling you not to feel the way about you’re beautiful new car which incidentally while researching it online after the purchase you found out it has a 50% chance of having the engine fall out and wheel coming apart at high speeds. But hey… you’re car hasn’t fallen to pieces yet, so go enjoy it on the Autobahn.. you might be one who was lucky not to get a lemon.

    Or lets look at it another way. You wouldn’t be suggesting people either get married, or enjoy their marriages if it was shown that more than 67% of married men were blowing up their marriages because they like screwing other more beautiful women, and that they could take over half all your earnings and kick you out of the house you bought and took your kids from you and the police would sit there ready to kick you out or arrest you if you made too much noise about it.

    But hey… you married a good guy, and even tho the law is stacked to side with the serial philanders and destroy your life, your earnings and your family just because they want some new poon.. count your lucky stars!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You wouldn’t be suggesting people either get married, or enjoy their marriages if it was shown that more than 67% of married men were blowing up their marriages because they like screwing other more beautiful women, and that they could take over half all your earnings and kick you out of the house you bought and took your kids from you and the police would sit there ready to kick you out or arrest you if you made too much noise about it.

      I would suggest that women choose very, very carefully. Date a number of men, learn as much as possible about his history, have a relationship for a period of time and make sure you test him in crises. Does he ever look at other women? How many women has he had sex with? Is he the least bit cocky? What do his friends tease him about? What is his relationship history? How does he explain his breakups? What is his personality like? Is he impulsive? Spontaneous? Does he always do what he says he is going to do? etc. etc.

      I essentially put my husband through these paces before I married him. And I would have married him even with a 67% chance of infidelity in the male population.

      By the way, I hope you aren’t saying 67% of married women are ending their marriages. It’s two-thirds of divorces being filed by women.

  • deti

    Sassy:
    “I think a big part of it aligns with my opinion that a lot of men truly believe that they can’t do any better or get anyone better. Instead of pursuing who they really want, despite the fear of being turned down, they settle for aging women or women with children.

    It is partially their own faults. A lot of times, the red flags are there from the very beginning. They just choose to ignore them.”

    Lot of truth in this. My only quibble is the red flag part. Feminism browbeats the shit out of men about red flags. Men aren’t taught what red flags are and are in fact taught there is no such thing as a “red flag”.

    They aren’t told about slut tells, gold diggers, carousel riders, or aging women. They’re told “30 is the new 20!” and “30 YO women are just as fertile as 20 YO women!” and “you ageist sexist pig! How dare you criticize any woman for being older and unmarried!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      I appreciate your constructive and respectful tone in this discussion. You have behaved better than I have. I apologize for being so reactionary. To be honest, I am feeling a bit beleaguered today and I’m taking it out on you. That’s not fair, and you’ve been very patient. Thank you.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Herb
    Let’s walk back from the White Nationalism shall we. Remember, I said there is a difference between woman and ladies? Yes, treat woman like subordinates; no, don’t treat ladies like subordinates. If you are just looking for something right now to sharpen your skills, then the subordinate options works well. Keep your eyes open for a lady and you can eventually find mutual respect and romantic love, but you must vet that VERY CAREFULLY.

  • Iggles

    @ SW:

    Not personal to her? Would he gladly show her that comment and expect her to be pleased? Of course it’s personal to her! He’s saying outright that if he could do it all over again, including having his children (!!!!!!) he would take a pass. My God, I can’t imagine my husband saying that. You just don’t talk that way about someone you love and/or respect. That’s not normal male communication, in my experience.
    He regrets marrying her and having a family with her.

    Well said, Susan!

    This is the point I was trying to making. I would be inconsolable if my husband — the man I promised to share my life with — had said that!

    Just thinking about it almost makes me want to cry (and I am not the type who cries often!).

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    “… you can be damn sure i would never have signed up for it. EVER!”

    Correction.

    … you can be damn sure i would never have signed up for it. Not until the legal system and rules governing marriage/divorce are equitable and tougher to achieve.

    ie. Frivolous Divorce

    If we went back to ‘show fault’ divorce and penalties for breach of contract. Otherwise i say to hell with marriage.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Iggles 264

    It’s astounds me that married men wouldn’t focus on trying to fix the system

    Actually they are.

    They usually end up getting called misogynists, or labelled as terrorists to watch by the SPCL for their troubles.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    WoT = Wheel of Time.
    As Herb said its long. I disagree however. Perfectly written.

    The author is Robert Jordan who gave the quote what you know mentioned upthread.

    I was re-reading the series over the summer. Most of the characters (and theres a lot) used different mating strategies ranging from V + V = marriage to polygamy. However, relationships are not the main point, its mostly about defeating the creator of all evil.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      OK, I’ll try the first in the series. It sounds perfect for listening to in the car.

  • HerrKaiser

    Susan,
    That is a good question; I don’t know. He had an athletic build, but he was very awkward; in fact when I met him, I turned to my friend (after he left) and asked what was wrong with him. He explained he had spent 8 hours a day in a lab for the last 5 years and was just a little rusty in his social interactions. The rustiness would explain why he was so direct, stating her having a child as being the problem, as opposed to making up a more polite excuse.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Iggles 273 again (not 264)

    No dice!

    Joe Blow didn’t say, “Knowing what I know now I wouldn’t have married my wife — we would have raised a family without getting legally married.”

    Two VERY different things, but he — like you — cited the system being unfair for opting out of marriage.. :roll:

    Having kids locks you into the same legal system as marriage. Different outcomes, same system. Both can be turned into weapons against a man in this current climate. Weapons that have been used by ‘good women’ at the behest of society and the herd to “assrape that motherf*cker for all he’s worth”. All you need to do is hamsterize.

    Yes dice.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Plain Jane #263:
    “First you are assuming a lot. You are assuming that the 30 something women are relentless carousel riders who’s only aim in life was to bed whomever she pleased in her 20s and purposely mislead a “hapless beta” in her 30s.”

    o: Yes, he is indeed assuming a lot. That said, when Women are in the big cities, this is not a bad assumption to have until or unless countervailing info comes into play. As you said, people can and do make (snap) judgments all the time. *shrugs*

    “You’re forgetting that there are many more women out here who did not have a different man every month (or weekend) but engaged in relationships with good men with the view for the long term and those relationships did not turn out as expected. I see this all the time and its neither one’s fault. They just grow apart, or distance gets in the way somehow – job transfers, going away to uni, whatever, life happens.”

    O: Sure, but again, he isn’t wrong to assume otherwise until he gets new info. There can be and will continue to be collateral damage. It is, what it is.

    “There are also plenty of women out here who remained sexually conservative through their uni and early career years but put off serious husband hunting because they had a timeline; late teens/early 20s for education, early 20s to mid 20s career building, and they timelined marriage for mid to late 20s but they never fell in love.”

    O: Who’s fault is that? Part of the risk is that you’ll wind up alone. *shrugs again*

    “You will not find anyone on this blog cheering your idea of purposely misleading women who want to be mothers, no matter their age.”

    O: Nor will he hear me explicitly putting him down either. I remain neutral.

    O.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    PJ 278

    M3,
    “Marriage rates are in decline. I suspect it’s because women just don’t want to marry but fuck around.”

    Not necessarily fuck around but it does appear that adult Americans prefer more of their “own space” now than ever before.

    I was being facetious. I have no clue if what i said there was true, i was just speculating out of my ass, as did the researchers of the study about mens reasoning behind being blindsided being their fault because they knew what actions they were doing to cause the divorce to start.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @HerrKaiser

    Let’s walk back from the White Nationalism shall we.

    ROFLMPO…maybe you haven’t read enough of my posts and the smilie wasn’t enough of a clue.

    I don’t believe white men are inherently superior to everyone else. However, 30+ years of hearing sob stories about minorities and women demanding gov’t (still, mostly white men here in the US) do something about it had lead to that response to said sob stories. If I’m oppressing you and the only way out of that oppression is for me to stop (ie, you can’t stop it yourself) then I’m superior. So, either continue to claim to be my equal and deal with what the world presents or admit you’re my inferior and let me take care of you. Everyone has shit to deal with. Some people have more (black child born to a crack addict in south west Atlanta) and some people have less (the daughter of Laurence Fishburne). They do the best they can in life but when one turns to porn to get ahead I’m going to judge the later much hasher than the former. If she then claims “I had to because I’m black/female/mentally handicapped” she’s going to get the inferiority line.

    I have to explain jokes these days…geeze.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    SW

    “By the way, I hope you aren’t saying 67% of married women are ending their marriages. It’s two-thirds of divorces being filed by women.”

    No i was saying 67% of divorces of 50% of marriages give or take. You have better stats than i.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Plain Jane #269:
    “Its not a bad idea as long as its reinforced through the culture and everyone knows the score. That’s how it works in arranged marriage cultures and many couples grow to love each other very quickly.”

    O: Arranged marriages in places like India, parts of Africa and Asia, are quickly going the way of the Do-Do Bird, thanks to Feminism and Globalism. For example, back in your home country of India, middle class and above Women there vehemently fight against arranged marriages. In the Middle East, same deal (check Iran, for example). Your view is a relic of a romantic bygone era.

    O.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    SW

    I essentially put my husband through these paces before I married him. And I would have married him even with a 67% chance of infidelity in the male population.

    Can i interest you in buying my friends KIA? Drives great! Go ahead and kick the tires.

    lol. ok, i’ve run this one into the ground. I’ll stop.

  • Ted D

    Ana – I see my name was used in vain (kidding I’d course) si I must chime in.

    “I do think his wife should take it personally happily married men don’t fear the plug plugging ever no matter what is happening to other men”

    I am a very happily married man at the moment, and I fear the plug being pulled every day. You see, I used to believe in “til death do us part” until my ex-wife moved out. Yes, I still believe in marriage and despite saying I wouldn’t I married again, but none of that changes the fact that I could find myself looking at divorce again. So, I do my best to use that fear to keep on top of my marriage so that it doesn’t. But, make no mistake, for me watching for any sign of trouble is my new vigil, because I now know beyond all doubt that it can happen to me again.

    Deti @266 – exactly right. I was led to believe that once a woman said “I do” that she would love and support me until one of us died. And, i was willing to do the same no questions asked. All it took for my ex to leave was her unhappiness with herself. There was no concern about broken vows in the end, only concern for her own feelings. And, the worst part is I still see her as a basically good person with some serious personal issues.

    I made the mistake of believing that when a woman gave her word and said the words, that she actually meant it. It seems that “for better or for worse” often means “for better or for worse, until it gets too bad”, and what constitutes “bad” is pretty loosely defined.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Plain Jane #292:
    “It wasn’t the fact he cancelled the date, it was the extremely rude way he did it. He could have simply taken her aside and explained politely that while he finds her attractive and nice, he’s not prepared to get involved with someone who’s a parent.”

    O: Why? From what I can tell, he didn’t do anything inherently wrong; he was direct and upfront and didn’t string her along at all.

    Morover, Women are well known to shoot down guys out of the sky like zero planes, and from your remarks here one doesn’t get the impression that you’re terribly disturbed about this; one thing’s for sure, a guy’s hardpressed to recall many examples of gals calling their own out on the carpet out in the field. So why is it so “wrong” for the guy to do what he did? Isn’t turnabout fair play – or do you think such things only matter when it’s the lady’s oxen getting gored?

    Please explain?

    O.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Deti

    Lot of truth in this. My only quibble is the red flag part. Feminism browbeats the shit out of men about red flags. Men aren’t taught what red flags are and are in fact taught there is no such thing as a “red flag”.

    That sucks for them, but some of the blame still rests with them.

    I haven’t learned all I’ve learned about relationships and men from my mother, priest, or what have you. I don’t make a habit of accepting everything I’ve heard as the truth right off the bat either. I did ask my mother about such things, but I also talked to my male friends, female friends, and read things online. I gathered many different perspectives, then formed my own opinions on things.

    They don’t teach how to date/mate in school, true. With that being said, information is readily available anywhere you turn. If a man doesn’t do research, of his own will and accord, it’s partially on him. I can only take the excuse of ignorance for so long. Yes feminists lie, but feminists are not the only sources of information in the world.

    If men gobbled up everything that feminists said, at face value, how doesn’t some of the blame rest with them? Why didn’t they ask around? Why didn’t they seek different viewpoints and form their own opinions?

    Methinks that quite a few men were happily naive and pleased with staying in the Blue pill, Disneyesque world of their dreams. They preferred looking at women through a lens of how they hoped they could be instead of actually looking at them for what they truly were. Ignorance really is bliss, I guess.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Whether a man is alpha or beta should not affect his ability to choose a woman of good character who is not marrying him for his steady paycheck!”

    This is true…but most men aren’t facing the choice between a women of good/bad character.

    I’m going to use one of Obsidians points. For most guys game isn’t the difference between god-like playerness and a couple girlfriends.
    For most its the difference between a girlfriend or WoW (insert whatever nerdy hope you like).

    Most women are of bad character (as are men, thats what society breeds) so the decision isn’t good or bad girlfriend but bad girlfriend or LvL 1000 Orc mage with uber epic equipment that can kill anything inj a one shot.

    —————————–

    Now on the topic of Joe.

    Your a fucking asshole. Your three frickin steps away from the edge of the forest and your bitching about how if you’d known something bad could have happened to you in the forest you woudn’t have run into it in the first place to a bunch of dudes who are somewhere between; choosing the forest or the easy road, partway into the forest and those who have already been eaten alive once or more and are still gonna give it another go.

    Fuck off and get over yourself. Your nearly done. Finish the race and go sitdown.

    The ladies have already taken care of the wifes POV so I’ll leave that be.

    ——————————

    Now onto the topic of marriage being a bad bet.

    It is.

    No way around it.

    Susan. I said this yesterday and you didn’t respond but a “good” woman is made “good” by her surroundings. Whats scary for me is, what if I am not able to control those surroundings. Or more worrisome (and what most men seem to express) what if I deem the system I have created “good” but my wife finds it unacceptable? This is where the blindside comes in.

    And yes its scary because what I think is perfect/good enough/ acceptable may not be judged the same way by her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Susan. I said this yesterday and you didn’t respond but a “good” woman is made “good” by her surroundings.

      Sorry, I missed that comment. :-/ It happens.

      What do you mean by this? Does a woman not develop character, for good or ill? My character was forged in some circumstances that were trying and terrible, as well as in some that were idyllic. It guides all of my actions now.

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Anacaona #290:
    “I wish more men were open about single mothers or/and sluts being deal breakers I think that will help more than pumping and dumping so their sisters will know that is a bad deal and limits their choices of men. The truth will set you free or so they say.”

    O: Women already do know it, it’s just like everything else when it comes to what Men say, they simply do not listen. For many Women, having a kid (or two, or three) can be and often is a dealbreaker, fullstop. Having said that, most guys can and will avail themselves of the sex and be out the door, and hey, so long as they’e upfront about this and the Woman is down with it (and trust me, a heck of a lot more are than many are willing to admit) I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Only those who imbibe the Blue Pill do.

    O.

  • Lokland

    @Ted, Ana

    ““I do think his wife should take it personally happily married men don’t fear the plug plugging ever no matter what is happening to other men”

    I am a very happily married man at the moment, and I fear the plug being pulled ”

    Oooh. I get it know. I had no idea what Ana meant by plugging the plug. Sounded like some kinda freaky porn move.

    Its a bath tub. Makes sense.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I am a very happily married man at the moment, and I fear the plug being pulled every day. You see, I used to believe in “til death do us part” until my ex-wife moved out. Yes, I still believe in marriage and despite saying I wouldn’t I married again, but none of that changes the fact that I could find myself looking at divorce again. So, I do my best to use that fear to keep on top of my marriage so that it doesn’t. But, make no mistake, for me watching for any sign of trouble is my new vigil, because I now know beyond all doubt that it can happen to me again.

    But that is the difference knowing what you do you still married her. Joe wouldn’t had married her or any woman. You might be vigilant but you are still a believer a whole world of difference.

  • deti

    Ted D 310:

    +1. I live every day with the knowledge that it could all come crashing down through no fault of mine. Like yours, my life is now one of constant vigilance.

  • Just1X

    cool discussion tonight everyone. Nothing to add as it’s all being said – great stuff
    G’night

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Ted D and deti

    Thanks for reminding me why not to make that mistake called marriage again. I was starting to soften.

  • Höllenhund

    I don’t understand this comment. Are you suggesting that I offered a piece of logic that whatever is needed, needs to be needed?

    The “men are needed” argument merely reminded me of a caricature of a donkey posted on a Manosphere blog a couple of years ago. I don’t think it’s online anymore but it looked something like this:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoellenhund/7980771512/

    Donkeys are indeed needed by their owners, but I’m sure many donkeys would prefer a different lifestyle. The thing is, more and more men are wary of this argument, and rightly so. Welmer has discussed this issue on his site before. The last time US politicians trotted out the “fathers are necessary and important” line, the result was a bunch of even more oppressive and unfair laws against so-called deadbeat dads, incorporated into the welfare reform of 1996. The “men are needed” argument has a tendency to swiftly be transformed into “we need more male pack mules to benefit women”.

    In the case of men and women in relationships, it has been my experience that telling a man I need him, don’t know what I would do without him, etc. has been very gratifying to him. I believe that men do like having women depend on them, which gives them an opportunity to display strength, competence and leadership.

    Fair enough. But Red Pill men don’t want to be considered mere accessories in women’s lives or mere facilitators of female ambitions, judged by nothing but their usefulness and attractiveness to women.

    Well why are intelligent men in media allowing this? Yes, this is a serious question. At what point are we going to see an acknowledgement that this is a very serious problem? When the economy stagnates fully? When the birth rate dips below Italy?

    Those who would acknowledge it are not permitted to start a mainstream discussion about these issues, for reasons that hardly need an explanation. The “intelligent” men you refer to are either feminists or tradcons, which means they either ignore these issues or salute them, or simply fail to even comprehend them.

    Having said that, when feminist politicans and their lackeys openly declare men to be the inferior sex and promote their enslavement and culling in one way or another, I think it will be a major red flag to even many of those men who aren’t paying attention to these issues right now. At that point, even the biggest manginas and white knights will probably realize that no amount of pandering and apologizing will prevent them from becoming targets, for no other reason that they have penises.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund, You Traitor

      Red Pill men don’t want to be considered mere accessories in women’s lives or mere facilitators of female ambitions, judged by nothing but their usefulness and attractiveness to women.

      Do you not know me at all after commenting here for three years?

      I do not view men as accessories or facilitators, and if you can say that in response to this post then you are irretrievable. You want to live in a world without women.

      You don’t know an ally when you see one.

  • J

    Re: white trash, it really isn’t as simple as a personal choice. My BF actually worries a lot that people will see him as white trash because he hasn’t made it through college and he’s working two service sector jobs (extremely low paid) to get himself back to school. I was lucky to have parents who paid for my college education; his family won’t even cosign his loans.

    Being white trash is an attiude, not an economic status. Working two jobs to get through school is a major DHV. Both DH and I have worked a number of shit jobs. Not going to college, being damn proud of it and being resentful of those who do is ultimate white trash behavior.

    I can guarantee that your attitude would really bother him. He works extremely hard to try to move himself up. In general, I think the idea that LMC people don’t work as hard as UMC people is utter bullshit.

    Please see above. As I’ve posted here many times before, my own background is working class. My husband was on welfare as a child. I would laud you BF for having the balls to go after what he wants and wish him well having come from the same place he’s coming from. Were he willing to sit there and bitch about guys who are doing what he’s doing now, then I’d call him “white trash.”

  • deti

    Sassy:

    “That sucks for them, but some of the blame still rests with them.

    I haven’t learned all I’ve learned about relationships and men from my mother, priest, or what have you. I don’t make a habit of accepting everything I’ve heard as the truth right off the bat either.”

    Bear with my sarcasm for a minute.

    I guess teenage boys should assume that parents, priests, and teachers — you know, the people who are supposed to have his best interests at heart, the people who SAY they are looking out for him — are either criminally ignorant, woefully stupid, maliciously lying to him, some combination thereof, or all three.

    I guess teenage boys should figure it out on their own after correctly concluding the adults who have charge over them don’t have a f**king clue what they’re talking about or doing — with regard to anything.

    I guess teenage boys should actively ignore everything their authority figures tell them, tell said authority figures they are full of shit, and look elsewhere for answers.

  • Höllenhund

    Are you saying that was my objective in writing this post?

    Only you can tell. What I’m certain about, though, is that this is the route this discussion is bound to take once it gets taken up by the mainstream media. A bunch of women will be arguing on both sides about what to do with men and how to make them useful to women, with Red Pill men having no say whatsoever.

    Dude, what is your problem? Do you just swing by to provoke in hopes of upsetting me so that you can go to other blogs and claim I banned you? Why do you come to a woman’s blog, read by women, and liken us to two headed calves?

    Because that’s the fitting parallel that comes to my mind whenever I see the breathtaking mental gymnastics about male-female relations that many women resort to in the media and even the public. What else I’m supposed to think of, really, when I hear about the concept of women being “emotionally infertile”, or the argument that childless women should be eligible for maternity leave, or the idea that men’s unreasonably high demands are to be blamed for women’s relationship problems, or the idea that prosecuting false rape accusers is misogynistic?

    When I come across something like that, there’s simply nothing to say.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9TV4z_SVyuc/TpjR0_6ZU8I/AAAAAAAAA3g/MspIYBd0xIM/s1600/two-headed-calf.jpg

  • J

    Since she’s MC or up, she needs to be married first and foremost because of stigma.

    How far up? Many UMC and wealthy women go it alone with either a bio or adopted child. If she’s middle MC, it’s a struggle. Nonetheless, I know a few single school teachers and one college professor who have adopted children. And there’s no stigma with an adopted child. Adopting is seen as heroic.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oooh. I get it know. I had no idea what Ana meant by plugging the plug. Sounded like some kinda freaky porn move.

    I guess is my fault mentioning I like porn…oh well there are worst things to be associated with… I guess.

  • J

    I predict that many more middle class and up White Women will simply ape what the Sistas and Latinas are currently doing – get a willing sperm donor and get er done the old fashioned way…

    I dunno, Obs. I think that many women who do the turkey baster thing, often do it BECAUSE they don’t want male interference. They are going to shoulder the whole burden, so they don’t want to share the child with another person who may have different ideas about how to raise the child or want to spend time with the child. They want a child, rightly or wrongly, who is completely their own.

  • J

    Everytime I talk to my husband about the issues of the manosphere he tells me he doesn’t care that much because he is safe from all that by marrying me.

    DH responds similarly.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Deti

    I don’t mean that teenage boys should take things that far, but knowledge truly is power.

    Like I said, I’ve always been the type of person to do my research. If people tell me something, no matter who that person is, I do my own followup research and form my own opinion. There is a lot of misinformation out there in this world. It’s up to each of us to sift through the garbage to find the good stuff.

    In no way am I placing all the blame on the shoulders of men, but I am also not letting them get off the hook completely. This opinion also holds for women. I’m always blown away at how quickly some women accept things that are told to them hook, line, and sinker. I’m always thinking, “Don’t these women know how to form their own opinions, or are they cattle?”.

    For example, my mother has given some good and bad advice about men to my sister and I. One major thing that she got wrong was her insistence that God would send my sister and I a husband at the right time. She also likes to tell us that looks aren’t that important, and that we’ll eventually find men that like us as we are. Utter garbage.

    Whenever she used to tell me that, I would roll my eyes and resist the urge to gag. My eyes couldn’t fool me. I noticed that the prettier girls had more men going after them than plain or ugly girls. After seeing it plenty of times, and talking with others about it, I knew my mother’s idea was off. In high school, I kicked my butt in gear and worked on my appearance. It was one of the best decisions of my life.

    I have a relatively constant and stable dating life and am now dating a great guy. Where is my sister, you may wonder? She is still piously waiting for God to send her a husband at the age of 26. She has never had a boyfriend before, still a virgin, and of average attractiveness. My mother meant well by telling us what she told us, I know, but it’s not good advice.

    I’ve confronted her on several occasions about her insistence on telling my sister that garbage, and she tells me that things should work out that way ideally for my sister. She wants to deal with the world in ways that she thinks it should be instead of viewing it the way it actually is. I’ve also confronted my sister about things and have told her that she should be more proactive in her search and work on her appearance. She replies by telling me that she believes what my mother tells her.

    I’m not surprised that she’s had the results that she has had. She’s not forming her own opinions on things based off of information gathered. Instead, she clings to the hope that my mother keeps feeding her.

    Cattle indeed.

  • Abbot

    What does “women need men” mean in this context -

    “The years 2011 and 2012 will end up going down in history as the years we stopped pretending this fight was about something else, and started to talk more boldly about whether or not we’re a nation that supports sexual liberation or opposes it.”
    — Amanda Marcotte

    Because that depends entirely on how each person defines “sexual liberation” as its always relative. Do most men have liberation? Do women support this notion more or less than men and why?

  • Sai

    @david foster
    That is one interesting review… I’d like to say it could never happen here, but I started learning another language just in case. (Ironically, it’s German.)
    Also, THANK YOU for mentioning how Golden Rice is not a mad scientist’s nightmare project.
    (and I don’t want mandatory yoga in school, let’s at least get something exciting like 80s workout tapes)

    @Doc
    “Women are as they have always been – the acted upon… They like it that way. It is as simple as that…”
    Hang on, not all women do. If someone is not my boss, my doctor or law enforcement, he (or she) needs to provide a good reason/incentive for me to follow his commands. If I care about a man I will cooperate with him buy I still won’t go along mindlessly every single time without offering any input of my own. If what I think and like are worthless -well, you don’t need ME specifically to boss around, anybody willing to follow orders will do. Why am I there and not Debbie or Lupe?

    @Ian Ironwood
    Another good pro-science post~

    @INTJ
    Oh, Germany… But I really do like (most of) it. There was an article a few months ago that said how after a period of militarism-related guilt, Frederick the Great and his values are gaining a lot of fans again. Apparently thrift and hard work were unpopular, which I have trouble picturing over there. I want to blame stereotypes.
    And I liked the “womaning” the grill joke.

    @Herb
    YOUR PLAN FOR DEATH SOUNDS AWESOME.

    @Laguna Beach Fogey
    “Either women accept the patriarchy on their own, or they will be forced to accept it.”
    I saw a comment like this on the post of VD’s that Just1X linked to -it said something like “women must submit to/be punished by husbands or governments.”
    What does it all mean?
    I am alone. I haven’t done anything ‘bad’; I haven’t even gotten a ticket for the carousel or kissed anybody, so I definitely don’t have to run to the government for child-care or anything. What does the government have planned for me?
    What’s the force and what’s the punishment? (please don’t think I’m trolling)

    @Joe Blow
    What’s wrong with birth control? I’d see a problem if the taxpayers/an unwitting ex were forced to pay for it, but you didn’t specify whether or not it was subsidized.
    (and feminism was a terrible lie, and yes, no-fault divorce should die in a car fire, but it can’t be blamed on my mother, and I am a fish and frog person)

    @Desiderius
    Why is it arrogant to despair over lack of knowledge of the future? I guess it’s imprudent because nobody’s a psychic, but where does the arrogance come in?

    @Anacaona
    “I wish more men were open about single mothers or/and sluts being deal breakers I think that will help more than pumping and dumping so their sisters will know that is a bad deal and limits their choices of men. The truth will set you free or so they say.”
    I agree. Abbot at least has told us what he thinks and he CANNOT be alone.

    @Lokland
    “Susan. I said this yesterday and you didn’t respond but a “good” woman is made “good” by her surroundings.”
    It’s true…
    I guess people (me too) need more self-discipline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Either women accept the patriarchy on their own, or they will be forced to accept it.”
      I saw a comment like this on the post of VD’s that Just1X linked to -it said something like “women must submit to/be punished by husbands or governments.”
      What does it all mean?
      I am alone. I haven’t done anything ‘bad’; I haven’t even gotten a ticket for the carousel or kissed anybody, so I definitely don’t have to run to the government for child-care or anything. What does the government have planned for me?
      What’s the force and what’s the punishment? (please don’t think I’m trolling)

      Sai’s brilliance is breathtaking. She’s got the charm and the smarts – the humor and the insight. A rare combination.

      She should either run for office or become a screenwriter a la Lena Dunham.

  • J

    a man often looks for in woman that unconditional love his mother gave him, and that is unrealistic in that the love from a woman is in fact conditional, and guys would do better to understand that

    ALL love between adults is conditional.

    My father is dead. Many Easters have come and gone since he last bought me a pretty coat and white hat with a pink ribbon on it just because I’m me. My husband has the disturbing habit of expecting things from me. I’ve learned to pull up my big girl panties and soldier on.

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Now on the topic of Joe.

    Your a fucking asshole. Your three frickin steps away from the edge of the forest and your bitching about how if you’d known something bad could have happened to you in the forest you woudn’t have run into it in the first place to a bunch of dudes who are somewhere between; choosing the forest or the easy road, partway into the forest and those who have already been eaten alive once or more and are still gonna give it another go.

    Fuck off and get over yourself. Your nearly done. Finish the race and go sitdown.

    The ladies have already taken care of the wifes POV so I’ll leave that be.

    Thanks for that. I’m glad I’m not the only one who was shocked to see Joe’s comment.

  • Mike C

    Everytime I talk to my husband about the issues of the manosphere he tells me he doesn’t care that much because he is safe from all that by marrying me.

    DH responds similarly.

    I find it amusing that you women take that at face value. It’s kind of like asking “honey, do I look fat in those jeans” and expecting anything but “no, your butt looks just fine in those jeans”. OF COURSE, that is the answer you will get regardless of what is actually going through his head.

    I’ll also make this point, and this is mostly for you J. No doubt, the “sphere” as you like to refer it has some cranks, extremists, kooks, and “aggregates” certain things as you like to put it, but at the same time what you are really getting is a candid view of the male psyche and thoughts where it doesn’t have to be filtered through political correctness, or fear of reprisal of some sort.

    I have to admit I chuckle at the women who consistently and repeatedly think they can actually talk to real men in real life face to face and actually get the 100% honest truth or even 30% of the honest truth of what they really think on various issues of intergender dynamics. I remember ole Jess when she was here would always reference her male co-workers and I always laughed at the absurdity of thinking a guy is going to tell you the truth about his opinions in the workplace.

  • J

    @PJ #267 and #293

    Nicely done. Cogent, rational and on point. You disagreed without going off the rails.

    And FWIW, I agreed with you both times.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The fact remains that a man whose wife is good and loyal has no reason to enter a state of high anxiety re family law. If he had a do-over, he would not marry her, nor presumably have his children, while he would have plenty of NSA sex.

    Sorry, it stinks.

    Yeah for all his faults Ladrock does seem to warm other men about marriage but he had never uttered the idea that he wouldn’t had married if he knew what it knows now (correct me if I’m wrong).
    Is funny because this is a similar issue we had in the opposite when men were saying they wouldn’t want a woman to want to be with them because they looked good on paper but a woman that really wants to be with them with every fiber of their beings. Staying trapped in a marriage because the laws are against him sounds like a shitty deal for a man I agree but not way any woman worth her ovaries would feel proud of having a man like that, I would feel like shit if this is the only thing keeping my husband for both divorcing or cheating “I wish I was somewhere else but I’m staying because I have no choice” stinks like a corpse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      Is funny because this is a similar issue we had in the opposite when men were saying they wouldn’t want a woman to want to be with them because they looked good on paper but a woman that really wants to be with them with every fiber of their beings.

      My response is best illustrated by this picture – the rodent is male:

      bh

  • J

    I guess teenage boys should actively ignore everything their authority figures tell them, tell said authority figures they are full of shit, and look elsewhere for answers.

    As a mother of teenage boys, I would advise teaching critical thinking skills and learning to question authority when said authority is questionable. I expect responsible behavior from my sons, but I support them when I believe that they are right and the authority figures are wrong. As a result, they know how to look beyond title and position and look at what the authority figure is actually saying.

  • Sassy6519

    @ J

    As a mother of teenage boys, I would advise teaching critical thinking skills and learning to question authority when said authority is questionable. I expect responsible behavior from my sons, but I support them when I believe that they are right and the authority figures are wrong. As a result, they know how to look beyond title and position and look at what the authority figure is actually saying.

    Bingo.

  • Höllenhund

    Do you not know me at all after commenting here for three years?

    Don’t you know perfectly well how the “men are necessary” message will be presented to average women and how will they interpret it, once it finds its way into mainstream discussion?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Don’t you know perfectly well how the “men are necessary” message will be presented to average women and how will they interpret it, once it finds its way into mainstream discussion?

      I think you’re wrong about that. Well, maybe not wrong about the average American woman. But I think that when push comes to shove, 95% of women would be scared sh*tless by the idea of a world without men.

      All I can promise is that I’ll carry the flag. I may not be what you hoped for, but I’m more clued in and more sympathetic than most women. Stop trying to get rid of me.

  • Joe

    @INTJ

    I’m glad I’m not the only one who was shocked to see Joe’s comment.

    Just to be sure there’s no confusion here, that’s Joe Blow the lawyer, and not me, right?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I find it amusing that you women take that at face value. It’s kind of like asking “honey, do I look fat in those jeans” and expecting anything but “no, your butt looks just fine in those jeans”. OF COURSE, that is the answer you will get regardless of what is actually going through his head.

    The question was not “Are you worried about me ever leaving/cheating (ha!) frivolously?” The question was “Why do you think this men are just whining on the MRA’s site? I showed you that there is a huge problem with them, and you have a couple of men you know that didn’t did anything wrong to get divorced….why don’t you care” His answer “I’m married to you I don’t have to care” which warmed my heart I have to admit.
    I wasn’t shopping for it and it was spontaneous I think that was an honest answer.
    The whole checking up is he is happy happens in other contexts usually involving me spending a bit more of the money we had budgeted for the month on calling my mom at DR… which I did again this month :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Anacaona

      The question was “Why do you think this men are just whining on the MRA’s site? I showed you that there is a huge problem with them, and you have a couple of men you know that didn’t did anything wrong to get divorced….why don’t you care” His answer “I’m married to you I don’t have to care” which warmed my heart I have to admit.

      As it should have! What a strong vote of confidence and security! So many men are wary of women today (with good reason) that giving a man that assurance – and the space to be himself – is a victory. It’s a way of taking the temperature of the relationship, and learning that it is very healthy. Reason to celebrate.

  • Höllenhund

    His answer “I’m married to you I don’t have to care” which warmed my heart I have to admit.

    Did you actually, truly expect anything different from him?

  • Mike C

    ALL love between adults is conditional.

    No, not necessarily true. For example, if my fiancee gained 50 pounds I would still love her for her….I probably wouldn’t be sexually attracted but I would still love her.

    Anyways, both your response and Susan’s response are very telling because they really do speak to the difference of female love and of course you project and assume male love is necessarily the same. To answer Susan’s question, I suspect her husband would still love her in response to the scenario she posed with the Ashley Madison site. He probably would be crushed and might even leave, but he couldn’t just “turn the love off”. I really don’t think women get this, because they can, and that is what is actual very scary to most men who project our version of love onto women. How can she love me one day, and the next treat me like a total stranger? I suspect what I am saying sounds like gobbedly-gook to you, because you can’t conceive of love in that same way. I saw this analogy and maybe you’ll understand it as a mother. It basically said a man loves a woman like a woman loves her child. No matter how badly she fucks up, the love is still there.

    We’ve been discussing these differences elsewhere extensively so I don’t want to repeat the whole discussion. The short version is women love men for what THEY DO not WHO THEY ARE. The love is conditional on some aspects of his “performance”. A woman’s love can disappear and she can easily disconnect if he fails to meet certain performance expectations.

    I understand what you are saying about how you love and believe me I totally get….I understand and accept the conditionality of female love. What you don’t get is how male love is quite different.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “OK, I’ll try the first in the series. It sounds perfect for listening to in the car.”

    I want to be perfectly clear. That was not a recommendation on my part.
    Your most likely going to hate it. Its glacially slow.
    Its for a very special breed.

    “Sorry, I missed that comment. :-/ It happens.

    What do you mean by this? Does a woman not develop character, for good or ill? My character was forged in some circumstances that were trying and terrible, as well as in some that were idyllic. It guides all of my actions now.”

    No worries you got like four threads active atm.

    I think character/morality are, frankly I can’t think of a word but useless seems close.
    Dogsquat mentioned a few times that the beuatiful women over there is three meals and a shower away from knifing you in the back and gnawing on your leg. (Or some such thing.)

    Morality/characater can only exist under ideal conditions. The rest of the time its survival of the fittest. (Now, there are people that will not act morally even under ideal circumstances. These people can be labelled as “bad” without question, so for example the cheaters with the cheating gene (if it was a guarantee). Then there are of course those that are always “good” as well.)

    So a “good” wife is likely good because all of her needs/wants are met. Starve the good wife for a few weeks and shes probably gonna try and eat you (and not in a fun way). *Keypoint: notice the timeframe.

    So a faithful/non-frivolous (input other things men like) wife is that way because all of her needs are met.
    Lets say we start starving her, it won’t be the next day she dumps your beta ass. Its gonna take awhile before it becomes too much. Eventually it’ll happen though.

    The keypoint from that example is that intially there were no red flags. The surrounding enviroment causes an adaptive behavioural change that basically said ‘time to GTFO’ (or any othe bad thing).

    This isn’t “bad” behaviour its merely self defense.

    The problem is this,

    Men get blindsided, a lot. This is one thing I think every individual discussing the topic agrees on.

    We disagree on why but we agree it happens.

    So lets look at it from a guys POV.

    He is capable of creating an enviroment. That enviroment must be able to meet the needs of his wife regularly enough that she doesn’t pull an EPL. Sometimes he might too much pepper, others he needs some more salt but overall it needs to balance out.

    When theres a major, long period of inbalance problems happen.

    However, men and women require different balances. A man could have created enviroment X which he thinks is perfect. Whereas his wife might be thinking he needs a neural scan. (This is where communication comes in.)

    Eventually man gets blindsided and he was thinking he was doing the right thing all along. NO RED FLAGS because he didn’t think they were redflags.

    This is what scares me. What if I get the balance wrong and don’t knwo I have it wrong?

    PS This is somewhat juvenile. I left a comment outlining something similar at the endish of the Hot or Not thread that is both shorter and imho better.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Morality/characater can only exist under ideal conditions. The rest of the time its survival of the fittest.

      Wow, that’s a rather dark view of human nature that I can’t say I share.

      So a faithful/non-frivolous (input other things men like) wife is that way because all of her needs are met.
      Lets say we start starving her, it won’t be the next day she dumps your beta ass. Its gonna take awhile before it becomes too much. Eventually it’ll happen though.

      First, I’m not clear on how you are using the starving metaphor here. What are you withholding?

      Second, it sounds as if you are really discussing female morality rather than morality. Do husbands ever dump their wives when their needs are not met? Do they cheat on them when their needs are not met?

      Eventually man gets blindsided and he was thinking he was doing the right thing all along. NO RED FLAGS because he didn’t think they were redflags.

      This is what scares me. What if I get the balance wrong and don’t knwo I have it wrong?

      Lokland, a woman’s unhappiness is never out of the blue. It just isn’t. Women don’t go from smiling contentedly after sex to asking for a divorce. There are signs. In the stories I’ve read, particularly at Athol’s, men say they were blindsided about divorce, but in the same breath they admit that they had been complacent for years. They rarely have sex, but don’t voice any objection. Their wives nag them and shit test them and they respond with meekness. Their wives disrespect them in public and they don’t stand up for themselves. They work hard, but they don’t communicate. I believe one guy even said he did a ton of housework but it didn’t make his wife want sex. Really? You thought that donning her apron and mopping the kitchen floor was a turnon?

      I’ve also seen this work the other way. Our next door neighbors had a very tense dynamic, and he often put her down in public. They rarely shared a laugh or joined in conversation. She appeared to be always attempting to appease him and make peace, but he was dismissive and aloof. She knew the marriage was in serious trouble, but when she attempted to communicate with him he denied it and said she was just making things up. He actually came out and left her for another man, but that’s not the point. The point is that only the most extreme psychopaths could exit a relationship without signaling dissatisfaction, frustration and an unwillingness to communicate first. Elizabeth Gilbert probably qualifies, but I think most relationships deteriorate in a way that both parties are well aware of the issue.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Did you actually, truly expect anything different from him?

    If you read manosphere sites for a while you assume that all men are bitter about women and tolerate their presence for sex’s sake only, so is not that I expected something different this was just surprising and nice. I am very critical of myself as a wife you know? This along with being a mother is probably the most important job I will ever have. Knowing that I’m doing it well always feel nice, YMMV.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Susan.

    What would normalize relationships between the sexes then. What is the one thing that if it can be applied, would cure a lot of ills ?

    Legal reform ?

    No.

    Spiritual revival ?

    No.

    Economic revival ?

    Impossible.

    So what then ?

    Universal conscription for men, after the age 16, for a period of two years.

  • Höllenhund

    Did you actually think he’ll say upfront something like “yeah, some of those guys are bitter but I think they do have a point, Marriage 2.0 is indeed a crappy deal for men”, or what?

  • Herb

    @Marellus

    Universal conscription for men, after the age 16, for a period of two years.

    And that will approve things how, exactly?

  • Ted D

    Ana – “But that is the difference knowing what you do you still married her. Joe wouldn’t had married her or any woman. You might be vigilant but you are still a believer a whole world of difference.”

    I didn’t see it this way but I understand. I guess I just don’t judge Joe harshly for coming to a different conclusion with the same information. I chose to marry again for a number of reasons, but in the end all those reasons are personal. I did it for myself more so than my wife and kids in truth. It is indeed something I believe in. But, I don’t blame Joe or any man that decides he doesn’t. That being said, I *do* expect men like Joe to stick with it and make it as good as possible. As long as a woman is keeping her end of the deal and is willing to put in an effort, there is no excuse for a man to break his vows.

    Mike C – “He probably would be crushed and might even leave, but he couldn’t just “turn the love off”. I really don’t think women get this, because they can, and that is what is actual very scary to most men who project our version of love onto women. ”

    There is a part of me that still loves my ex-wife. It is a VERY different kind of love than what I felt for her when we were married, but it IS love all the same. After all she put my children and I through, I still defend her, and I still believe she IS a good person. She is still the mother of my children. And even with all of the emotional pain she put me through, I just can’t muster the strength to hate her for it. In order to make peace with what happened, I had to do a lot of mental surgery to figure out how to separate my love for her from my feelings towards her. I learned a lot about what I am mentally and emotionally capable of from that experience, and in some ways I am grateful. But no matter how hard I tried, I could not completely stop loving her. I simply had to live with that.

    Lokland – “This is what scares me. What if I get the balance wrong and don’t knwo I have it wrong?”

    This. Your entire post outlines my exact thinking. It just took me seeing it in print to actually work it out.

    I think I need a drink. :-p

  • INTJ

    @ Joe

    Just to be sure there’s no confusion here, that’s Joe Blow the lawyer, and not me, right?

    Yeah sorry. That’s Joe Blow I was shocked by. Nothing against you. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Did you actually think he’ll say upfront something like “yeah, some of those guys are bitter but I think they do have a point, Marriage 2.0 is indeed a crappy deal for men”, or what?

    I wasn’t expecting a particular answer I just wanted his perspective. I’m always curious to hear people’s ideas, specially people I care about. Hence the surprise.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb.

    From this article.

    “When you get kids who can’t do push-ups, pull-ups or run, this is a fundamental problem not just for the military but for the country,” said Curtis Gilroy, the Pentagon’s director of accessions policy. Many kids are not “taking physical education in school; they’re more interested in sedentary activities such as the computer or television. And we have a fast-food mentality in this country.”

    So Herb.

    1) The wingnuts are yanked out of the house.

    2) They’re fitnessed up, and fattened down.

    3) They’re taught teamwork and responsibility.

    4) The schools are forced to shape up for “National Security”

    5) Girls love a uniform.

    Am I missing something ?

  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @Ms. Walsh #338:
    “Do you not know me at all after commenting here for three years?

    I do not view men as accessories or facilitators, and if you can say that in response to this post then you are irretrievable. You want to live in a world without women.

    You don’t know an ally when you see one.”

    O: Wait, how is Hollenhund a “traitor” here? Especially since you’ve been quite clear in how you regard him and others in the Manosphere? How has he “betrayed” you? Please explain? I need some real clarification on this.

    Ms. Walsh, the fact that *you* don’t view Men as accessories and the like is commendable, but it doesn’t change the point Hollenhund, myself and many other guys are making here; this is a culturewide issue here. I get that you’re not really trying to address all that and I hear where you’re coming from, but for real, in order for a lot of the things you want to happen, at some point the “big issues” simply have to be tackled head on. Again, that’s not you job and I respect and get that. But it doesn’t make it any less true, nor does it make your self-appointed “mission” any less easier, either.

    As for the notion of “allies” – please recall our recent conversation. When I made my position on marriage and the like clear (something I’ve never hidden from you or anyone else, I might add), you basically went ape you know what. Clearly, you *really* don’t support my right to “choice” – and that’s what’s really at issue with all of this here. Not whether guys will marry, but whether they will decide not to follow the script. That’s what it means to be a Red Pill, Ms. Walsh, and if you will kindly recall I made this point clear to you last week.

    Women as a group fully expect to be free and to have choice while at the same time, fully expecting Men to fulfill outdated roles, *when it suits them*. Men don’t even have the choice to determine when to do thus and so; it is all supposed to go per the Woman’s whims, without question, and you better smile while you’re doing it.

    This is why I am so heartened to see the Manosphere doing its thing, even while I have real areas of actual critique about it – because it is forcing Women to listen. This is part of my “mission” – to get my voice heard, in any way that I can. Only when Women begin to really, truly hear what Men *really* think about all this – again, recall my referencing Bill Maher – will things have any hope of changing for the better. There are real, abiding reasons as to why more and more Men are saying “no thanks” to marriage, for example, Ms. Walsh. Black Men have been quietly doing it, for decades now, and even in our time today, because most Brothas don’t blog/write, and because there’s no cultural cache for academics to study/survey Brothas, this dirty little secret goes by the wayside.

    But the truth of the matter is, that many, many Brothas simply don’t like the “deal” marriage is in our time. I personally know scores of Brothas who want no part of it, and are completely cool to have relationships instead; and the ladies can either take it or leave it. There’s always room for one more.

    On that note, the whole “MGTOW” thing has been around in the Black community for decades – again, it just never got the light of day treatment that it’s getting today, thanks in large part because its happening to and with White Folk Who Matter. But again, I know scores of Brothas who are quite content to head home after work, plop down in front of the ginormous flatscreen tv, and play Madden NFL 2012. And mind you, these aren’t guys who couldn’t get any action if their lives depended on it; these are guys who are good looking, gainfully employed, live in very nice places, you name it. They are simply turned off by the “package” far too many Sistas are “selling”; and instead of making a bit stink about it, they simply vote with their feet. Quietly.

    So, you can imagine my profound interest in these topics. In so many ways, its like deja vu, all over again…

    :)

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Obs

      Wait, how is Hollenhund a “traitor” here? Especially since you’ve been quite clear in how you regard him and others in the Manosphere? How has he “betrayed” you? Please explain? I need some real clarification on this.

      I was just teasing Hollenhund. I realize this has never before been done successfully, as he does not appear to have been born with a sense of humor. Howeever, I was inspired to call him a traitor based on his posting here and simultaneously dissing me at Vox’s.

      . Clearly, you *really* don’t support my right to “choice” — and that’s what’s really at issue with all of this here. Not whether guys will marry, but whether they will decide not to follow the script.

      Not true. I support your right to marry or stay single. I simply observed that a 40-something never-married male is a bit of a red flag.

      There are real, abiding reasons as to why more and more Men are saying “no thanks” to marriage, for example, Ms. Walsh

      It seems to me that we’re heading toward a marriage crisis where many women will choose not to marry, for lack of qualified mates. I do not think that women will marry in a hypogamous fashion. If men feel the same way, I guess we’ll at least have a sort of equilibrium…

  • Höllenhund

    Universal conscription for men, after the age 16, for a period of two years.

    Yeah, because the most pressing problem facing the West is that men aren’t disposable enough already.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Höllenhund

    Yeah, because the most pressing problem facing the West is that men aren’t disposable enough already.

    Yeah, because the most pressing problem facing the East, is that they have more than enough men, that are disposable.

  • Herb

    @Marellus

    Am I missing something ?

    Plenty. First, remember, I’m speaking as a 9 year veteran.

    5) Girls love a uniform.

    1. I’m not so sure of that.
    2. Universal conscription will create a case of “when everyone is special, no one is special”.

    4) The schools are forced to shape up for “National Security”

    No, the military will just have to do even more remedial work. Remember, since they conscript everyone the schools can just say, “that’s what it is”.

    You are aware that already a third of college admitted students need remedial work. How would conscription force a change when people taking thousands of dollars in student loans for remedial work that bears no college credit hasn’t?

    2) They’re fitnessed up, and fattened down.

    Right now the military had fitness requirements and still rocks plenty of boots out due to physical fitness failures (Navy you can fail PRT #1 & #2 as a boot but not #3 for example). Now you want to require the military to run significantly more boots with lower entry standards and you expect a 100% pass rate?

    3) They’re taught teamwork and responsibility.

    Look at the experience of conscript/draftee armies versus volunteer ones. The only army I can think of that did well with a draft was the WW2 US military. However, the draft was actually used more as a manpower management tool to keep everyone from signing up at once (a real problem in the first quarter of 1942) and to assign people to a service instead of letting everyone pick the Navy (for example).

    As a veteran the last thing on which I wanted to depend was someone complaining, “I was drafted”. Bad moral on a submarine is dangerous enough because the margin of error isn’t big. Adding draftee syndrome on top of it would only be worse. Every vet from Vietnam to today I’ve asked about this has had the same thing to say.

    The military is not an ersatz mommy and daddy for spoiled shits. It’s a force designed to impose political solutions by force when that is the option chosen by civilian authority or forced by the actions of another state.

    Plus, you only want to draft men. How will that correct the problems women are creating in the SMP (or is it all men’s fault?).

  • J

    @Mike C #337

    I dunno, Mike. My husband is a fairly honest and upfront guy, who has no trouble in asking for what he wants. When he’s unhappy, he lets me know (and vice versa). We’ve been together for a quarter of a century. If he can’t be honest with me, there’s no one in this world he can be honest with. Hell, Mike he even tells me when he thinks I look fat in my pants, but thank God, he’s a guy who likes a fat ass.

    but at the same time what you are really getting is a candid view of the male psyche and thoughts where it doesn’t have to be filtered through political correctness, or fear of reprisal of some sort.

    I think that’s partially true, but I also think that there are certain fears and issues that permeate the ‘sphere that aren’t common to all men, or even all divorced men.

    To give a personal example, once, after reading some particularly cogent pleas for more feminine and submissive behavior, I actually asked DH if he’d like it better if I were more submissive. After he stopped laughing (and he laughed for a long time), he asked what in his behavior would lead me to ask such a thing. I said, “Well nothing, but…” He threatened to take me laptop away for wasting my time. About a week later, he asked me if this were some sort of BDSM thing and if I was bored with our sex life. I said no, and he was happy about not having to think up kinky shit to keep me “entertained.”

    On another occasion, I asked what he thought about mandatory paternity testing. He thought it was a lot of government interference in personal/family problems and wanted to now who’d pay for it.

    Srsly, Mike, many of the issues raised in the ‘sphere have never occured to him. He’s not interested in my being more submissive. He seems pretty sure the kids are his. He appears to feel happy and secure in our relationship. For all I know he may feel that there are inequities in the divorce laws or sympathize with the divorcd guys at work, but the notion of my screwing out of the house or taking the kids or whatever isn’t on his radar AFAICT.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Hell, Mike he even tells me when he thinks I look fat in my pants, but thank God, he’s a guy who likes a fat ass.

      HAHA

      He threatened to take me laptop away for wasting my time. About a week later, he asked me if this were some sort of BDSM thing and if I was bored with our sex life. I said no, and he was happy about not having to think up kinky shit to keep me “entertained.”

      HAHAHA

      Srsly, Mike, many of the issues raised in the ‘sphere have never occured to him. He’s not interested in my being more submissive. He seems pretty sure the kids are his. He appears to feel happy and secure in our relationship. For all I know he may feel that there are inequities in the divorce laws or sympathize with the divorcd guys at work, but the notion of my screwing out of the house or taking the kids or whatever isn’t on his radar AFAICT.

      Same here. My husband thinks it is beyond strange that men who claim to be happily married are online writing deranged tracts about female nature. I showed him a few posts, and of course he’s been aware of some controversies I’ve been embroiled in. His position is that I am wasting my time with maladjusted fools. That sucks for me, because I get limited sympathy at home when I respond to them and live to regret it. I’m learning.

  • Plain Jane

    “All I can promise is that I’ll carry the flag. I may not be what you hoped for, but I’m more clued in and more sympathetic than most women. Stop trying to get rid of me.”

    Ha. They were hoping for an approachable 19 year old HB 9.75 boyfriendless virgin who could magically clone herself like a superhero for each of them. And oh yeah, she should be smart but not *too* smart, pay for dates but somehow not have a job, and never sag or get even a single stretch mark after painlessly giving birth to children. And her vagina should magically snap back into virgin tightness after doing so as well.

    :)

  • Herb

    @Marellus

    Yeah, because the most pressing problem facing the East, is that they have more than enough men, that are disposable.

    When the time comes, the West’s biggest problems in that area won’t be man power but nerve.

    One set of well placed, precision munitions will make most of the northern part of China a stone age disaster in 48 hours. The Chinese have created this situation and yet I doubt they worry about us using it.

    The two most populous nations on Earth have been at war once already (given one is barely 60 years old that’s impressive) and you can expect another in the next 50 years as their spheres of influence collide in Southeast Asia. Will we have the nerve to play them off against each other.

    For either to attack the West will require a substantial naval commitment or an extensive ground campaign in Asia. Admittedly both are making large naval commitments but the more immediate danger is our discontinuing our counter. Modern carrier battlegroups and submarines require huge amounts of institutional knowledge to operate. China has some of the later and India some of the former but neither has both to a deep and broad degree. However, we seem determined to kill ours and the fleet itself. Neither is easily rebuilt.

    As for the large land campaign in Asia only one group in history has managed it to any degree of success and that ended six centuries ago. While the eastern parts of Russia and the various Stans are probably goners I’m not even sure about Russia west of the Urals much less the height of the Mongol Empire in modern Poland.

  • Desiderius

    Herb,

    “You can only dance with the women who come to the ball. I’m not allowed in the one with the girls who didn’t get knocked up and are at least average in attractiveness.”

    The passivity evident in this sentence would kill you even if you were a male model with all the prestige in the world. Yes, there are forces arrayed against you, but you have no way of determining with sufficient certainty that those forces are so strong as to preclude you from all hope of success.

    If there is hope, you have to take an active frame to realize it. A passive frame is a suboptimal strategy whatever the reality of the situation.

  • INTJ

    @ Herb

    When the time comes, the West’s biggest problems in that area won’t be man power but nerve.

    One set of well placed, precision munitions will make most of the northern part of China a stone age disaster in 48 hours. The Chinese have created this situation and yet I doubt they worry about us using it.

    I’m curious what you mean by this. Obviously, attacks on Chinese infrastructure would cripple China, the same as any other nation. But two problems arise. The first is wether we have the operational capability to intervene in Northern China. AFAIK, the only thing we have that might be up to the task is the B-2.

    The two most populous nations on Earth have been at war once already (given one is barely 60 years old that’s impressive) and you can expect another in the next 50 years as their spheres of influence collide in Southeast Asia. Will we have the nerve to play them off against each other.

    Wasn’t much of a war, given that both sides refrained from using airpower. Sure, they might fight each other in a bigger war next time, but nothing we can do about it. Certainly, China’s imperial ambitions in the South China sea are something to worry about though.

    For either to attack the West will require a substantial naval commitment or an extensive ground campaign in Asia. Admittedly both are making large naval commitments but the more immediate danger is our discontinuing our counter. Modern carrier battlegroups and submarines require huge amounts of institutional knowledge to operate. China has some of the later and India some of the former but neither has both to a deep and broad degree. However, we seem determined to kill ours and the fleet itself. Neither is easily rebuilt.

    India’s military is purely regional in nature, and it has no capability or reason to attack the West. China’s is also regional, but it might choose to attack Western forces to allow it freedom to do what it wants in the region (goes back to the South China sea). Their emphasis on submarines certainly seems directed at our carriers. Our navy might be downsizing dramatically thanks to the disappearance of the Soviet navy, but the cost required to have a blue-water navy that can fight China’s regional navy is simply too much. It’s pointless in the long run. We’d be much better of letting India, Vietnam, Japan, etc. band together to counter the Chinese navy.

    As for the large land campaign in Asia only one group in history has managed it to any degree of success and that ended six centuries ago. While the eastern parts of Russia and the various Stans are probably goners I’m not even sure about Russia west of the Urals much less the height of the Mongol Empire in modern Poland.

    Not happening. Russia still has the most heavily armed ground army (though admittedly not as up to date as ours) on the planet, and after our excursion in Libya, Russia’s doubled its efforts to modernize its military. There is no way China is going to defeat Russia in open battle.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sue: “IIRC, I recently provided you with the percentage of 2011 high school graduates who enrolled in college: 68.3. That 2/3 of the population is going to experience hookup culture, with its distinctive features on college campuses. The 1/3 that does not go to college will have a very different experience, and may have casual sex, OOW births, etc. at a high rate, but they will not experience hookup culture per se.”

    I think your extrapolation to 2/3 of the *population* may be overstated. What about the high school kids that don’t graduate at all? Lots don’t. (Remember my stories about my hanging out at summer mixed-class parties that you never heard of existing?)

    What about the kids who live at home, and go to a local community college? No dorms. (When I graduated high school, I remember looking at the accepted schools and half the kids were enrolled in the local CC.)

    Then there are then college dropouts.

    I’m not sure how college hookups are any different than blue-collar/poor post-high school dating. Sex still precedes dating. If anything, that SMP is more brutal than the college scene, and harbinger of things to come as we spiral down.

    PJ: “Whoa! … That is an immoral, unethical, downright dirty attititude … [blah blah blah about good girls] You will not find anyone on this blog cheering your idea of purposely misleading women who want to be mothers, no matter their age.”

    Spare us the fake moral outrage.

    Ethical? This, from person who just hinted cheating was to be expected if the man works too many hours? “besides, then the cat is away the mice will play ;)” M3′s attitude is exactly for women like you, who think that ethics are only for men, and snicker privately at the weak ones who do.

    I definitely cheer fighting fire with fire.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      I’m not sure how college hookups are any different than blue-collar/poor post-high school dating. Sex still precedes dating. If anything, that SMP is more brutal than the college scene, and harbinger of things to come as we spiral down.

      I don’t disagree with the characterization of an extremely dysfunctional SMP among those who don’t go to college. I’ve written about the topic several times – we know what the OOW birth rate is, as well as the ever declining marriage rate.

      If anything, college kids dealing with hookup culture have it easier. Almost all of them will marry and a very high percentage will stay married and raise children together.

      That said, hookup culture is a challenge to young people on college campuses. It has specific characteristics that are unique to the environment. Binge drinking, coed dorm living, the fact that fellow students are not really strangers, but also not necessarily acquaintances, the social dynamics of Greek organizations and athletics, etc. etc. All of this goes into the stew that is hookup culture. I started writing this blog when I was introduced to it as a parent. It remains my focus and my interest. It’s the same in the academic community – there are people who study nationwide trends, e.g. National Marriage Project, Pew Research, and there are people who study human mating in general, e.g. evo bio and psych types. And there people who study the particular mating behaviors of college students. I am most interest in the last topic, though I do occasionally venture beyond it, and will no doubt continue to do so. In those cases, I clearly state my motives for doing so, which usually have to do with getting a handle on the larger SMP that includes the MC and UMC.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Susan
    Yeah that is how I felt I have had some other moments “Oh I don’t suck as much as I though” but I rather share in private.

    Hell, Mike he even tells me when he thinks I look fat in my pants, but thank God, he’s a guy who likes a fat ass.

    I missed this one but is truth now that I have a fat ass, (by white people’s standard that is, everytime I mention my big fat ass at the beauty parlor the girls just laugh what ass honey you have a white girl’s tiny ass) he starts singing “I like big butts and I cannot lie…” :D

    He threatened to take me laptop away for wasting my time. About a week later, he asked me if this were some sort of BDSM thing and if I was bored with our sex life. I said no, and he was happy about not having to think up kinky shit to keep me “entertained.”

    My husband calls my laptop the crazy box for similar reasons.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb.

    Oh bloody hell, then what do you propose to get them out of the house; run like crazy; force them to think; and come back home after a long time, not afraid of women ?

    *Sigh* … then it’ll just have to be fleshlights that were designed by the Russians, perfected by the Japanese, manufactured by the Chinese, and halaal’d by the Arabs ….

  • Herb

    @Desiderius

    I’ve read plenty of Lewis in my day.

    It’s not just passivity; it’s also a question of priorities.

    We have Game, ie learning to treat women badly in exchange for adoration. Learning Game is hard as anyone who works on it will tell you.

    There are lots of hard things worth doing out there. Mastering clarinet is hard. So is mastering flute and man will it run you out of air (it is not usual for flute students, especially new ones, to get faint during lessons). Learning systems level programming (OS, compilers, file systems, etc) is hard. Understanding the mathematics of finance is hard as is most high level applied mathematics. Learning to speak a foreign language is hard. Working your way through Wheelock’s Latin or the Western Canon is hard.

    Yet all of these things (which are things I have done or am doing) have a payoff that makes them worthwhile. Some make me employable or increase my potential income when I am employed. Some allow me to create things that bring me prestige or passive income. Some allow me to better understand the world in which I live or the language I speak.

    Interestingly none make me attractive to women expect indirectly by being appealing to gold diggers via income.

    As you said, looks won’t help.

    No, the one thing that will help is a very specialized je ne sais quoi embodied in Game.

    Yet, what would spending the same time on Game that Wheelock’s Latin or Rudin’s Real Analysis require bring me. Intelligent conversation is a possible option? No, given Game is based on women being unable to intelligent converse with men that’s out. Companionship in activities I enjoy might be one, but if I can to be dominant the whole time I can’t really relax and enjoy them romantically with a woman like a can a man or a woman who is sexless to me.

    In fact, I’ve learned that with women keeping one’s opinions to oneself period is pretty much the only path to peace and quiet.

    So, perhaps I could get active and apply the same drive I apply to math, computers, music, reading, work, or even D&D to learning how to be attractive to women. However, the opportunity cost is, to the best of my observation, much much higher than what single women in my age range bring to the table.

    I don’t invest $1000/ounce in copper. Why should I in copper haired beauties?

  • Desiderius

    Sai,

    “@Desiderius
    Why is it arrogant to despair over lack of knowledge of the future? I guess it’s imprudent because nobody’s a psychic, but where does the arrogance come in?”

    The despair is not over the lack of knowledge. Despair imagines it knows the future and it will be bad. It doesn’t, and is arrogant to think it does.

    Look, the degeneracy evident in this SMP is not unprecedented in history – it is in fact very similar to what happened in Restoration England and the Regency period in France. Both were followed by great success – The Glorious Revolution in England, and a period of French ascendancy that was instrumental in winning our own Independence.

  • Herb

    @INTJ

    I’m curious what you mean by this. Obviously, attacks on Chinese infrastructure would cripple China, the same as any other nation. But two problems arise. The first is wether we have the operational capability to intervene in Northern China. AFAIK, the only thing we have that might be up to the task is the B-2.

    Catastrophic destruction of the Three Gorges Dam is what I mean. Part of it’s purpose is to control very bad flooding in major industrial regions of China as it is. Release of it’s reservoir would cause flooding, dislocation, and damage all the way to Shanghai. In addition to diminished resources in the area the resources to just cope much less significantly repair would be militarily crippling.

    Sure, they might fight each other in a bigger war next time, but nothing we can do about it.

    Sure there is: sell weapons and give political backing to the weaker side to keep it going.

    Our navy might be downsizing dramatically thanks to the disappearance of the Soviet navy, but the cost required to have a blue-water navy that can fight China’s regional navy is simply too much. It’s pointless in the long run.

    A nation heavily dependent on resources that travel over the world’s oceans is foolish to not maintain a world wide naval force. If China’s Navy is merely regional, as you say, it wouldn’t take much to fight. Also, the current US Navy has a significant mis-allocation of resources as we still maintain European commitments as though the North Seas fleet will sally into the North Atlantic next Thursday.

    Regardless until our oil, copper, beef, other raw materials, and consumer goods all come from the Americas the cost to not maintaining a blue water navy is sacrifice of our lifestyle until they do.

  • Desiderius

    Herb,

    “We have Game, ie learning to treat women badly in exchange for adoration.”

    I would say that is a stage in learning game, Susan would deny it is necessary at all. It feels “bad” largely because we were mistrained as to the good. Passivity is not good. Supplication is not good. Oneitis is not good. What is does do is make us act courageously – we have to violate that training, and that takes courage.

    Courage is ultimately what they were seeking all along that we were not bringing to the table. Once we bring that, we’re more free to treat them well, and expect that in return.

    NiceGuy: never stands up for himself
    Dickguy: always stands up for himself
    Goodman: balances the needs of self and other
    Greatman: finds ways that both can be satisfied together.

  • Desiderius

    “As you said, looks won’t help.”

    Heh – they don’t hurt either. Get the T up.

  • Herb

    @Marellus

    then what do you propose to get them out of the house; run like crazy; force them to think; and come back home after a long time, not afraid of women ?

    Give them a reason to do so that engages them.

    Part of the problem is too many young men today see nothing they can earn that is better than what they can get passively. A man whose sex life is going to be a pocket pussy regardless of his job isn’t going to chase a job. A man whose social life is xBox and big screen TV can get them from what a Domino’s driver makes.

    A country which spends as much time tearing down those who gain conventional success via hard work will celebrate those whose success comes from unevenly distributed talent (sports, singing, acting, good looks) while ignoring how much work even said talent requires to express.

    Want them out doing things: make Bill Gates as big a hero and chick magnet as some NBA thug (or better yet, Bill Joy but I’ll restrain myself). Instead of the media attacking Chic-fil-a celebrate Dana Cathy and what he’s built and that if you do it too then just like Cathy you can put your money to influence the world you want.

    Just don’t expect forcing them to be in the Army to substitute for inspiring them. It’ll make more sullen then it will make successful.

  • Plain Jane

    “Red Pill men don’t want to be considered mere accessories in women’s lives or mere facilitators of female ambitions, judged by nothing but their usefulness and attractiveness to women.”

    Well welcome to the club. If the online manosphere is any “red pill” to go by, that is exactly how many of them view women. Historically and biologically the sexes DO judge each other based on attractiveness and usefulness, that’s how we survived and replicated as a species, but those two are no longer the only factors when deciding whether or not to spend the rest of one’s life with another.

  • Desiderius

    J,

    “They want a child, rightly or wrongly, who is completely their own.”

    God help that child. Any wonder why so many have trouble growing up? A grown-up would no longer be completely her own.

    Sorry, as a child of divorce, I have to say that shame is too good for these women.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb.

    Just don’t expect forcing them to be in the Army to substitute for inspiring them. It’ll make more sullen then it will make successful.

    I’m not gonna win this one, am I ?

    Oh well.

    As for your social and economic remedies, what you’re advocating is Supply Side Economics am I right ?

  • INTJ

    @ Herb

    Catastrophic destruction of the Three Gorges Dam is what I mean. Part of it’s purpose is to control very bad flooding in major industrial regions of China as it is. Release of it’s reservoir would cause flooding, dislocation, and damage all the way to Shanghai. In addition to diminished resources in the area the resources to just cope much less significantly repair would be militarily crippling.

    Ahh. Didn’t think of that. That would definitely work.

    Sure there is: sell weapons and give political backing to the weaker side to keep it going.

    Oh. That’s your goal. I see. :)

    A nation heavily dependent on resources that travel over the world’s oceans is foolish to not maintain a world wide naval force. If China’s Navy is merely regional, as you say, it wouldn’t take much to fight. Also, the current US Navy has a significant mis-allocation of resources as we still maintain European commitments as though the North Seas fleet will sally into the North Atlantic next Thursday.

    What I mean is that for every nuclear attack submarine we build, China simply has to build a diesel submarine. If you want equal firepower, blue water navies are much more expensive.

    Regardless until our oil, copper, beef, other raw materials, and consumer goods all come from the Americas the cost to not maintaining a blue water navy is sacrifice of our lifestyle until they do.

    We don’t have the capability anymore. It’s like the British Empire in the early 20th century. We’re going to have to learn to make do without colonial resources.

  • Plain Jane

    Obsidian September 12, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    @Ms. Plain Jane #292:
    “It wasn’t the fact he cancelled the date, it was the extremely rude way he did it. He could have simply taken her aside and explained politely that while he finds her attractive and nice, he’s not prepared to get involved with someone who’s a parent.”

    O: Why? From what I can tell, he didn’t do anything inherently wrong; he was direct and upfront and didn’t string her along at all.

    Morover, Women are well known to shoot down guys out of the sky like zero planes, and from your remarks here one doesn’t get the impression that you’re terribly disturbed about this; one thing’s for sure, a guy’s hardpressed to recall many examples of gals calling their own out on the carpet out in the field. So why is it so “wrong” for the guy to do what he did? Isn’t turnabout fair play – or do you think such things only matter when it’s the lady’s oxen getting gored?

    Please explain?
    ——-

    SURE! My pleasure.

    You say “women do this to men all the time – turnabout is fair play”. But this PARTICULAR woman has not done that to this PARTICULAR man. They don’t know each other from Adam.

    Its like Herb’s point regarding (some) minorities and women who might cop attitude with individual white guys they meet in the day to day because they are somehow holding Scott the pizza delivery guy and Mike the mailman responsible for what they perceive to be historical injustices that they feel they are personally suffering from in their current lives.

    It just doesn’t make any sense, and worse, it hampers a flow of respect and kindness between individuals.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Plain Jane

      You say “women do this to men all the time — turnabout is fair play”. But this PARTICULAR woman has not done that to this PARTICULAR man. They don’t know each other from Adam.

      Thank you. I reject any notion of collective guilt or moral equivalency. Full stop.

  • J

    J:ALL love between adults is conditional.

    Mike: No, not necessarily true. For example, if my fiancee gained 50 pounds I would still love her for her….I probably wouldn’t be sexually attracted but I would still love her.

    Anyways, both your response and Susan’s response are very telling because they really do speak to the difference of female love.

    Yeah they do–but mostly because you seem to think I was taking about 50 lbs. DH has gained and lost the same damn 50 lbs so many times during the last 25 years, I could saved them and made myself a couple of extra husbands. It ain’t no thang. And I’m apparently less picky than you are because I really didn’t care much either way about the weight until his blood pressure went up. It strikes me as very male that you think a declaration of undying love should revolve around weight. It’s a rare women that’s that shallow about her husband.

    To answer Susan’s question, I suspect her husband would still love her in response to the scenario she posed with the Ashley Madison site. He probably would be crushed and might even leave, but he couldn’t just “turn the love off”.

    Yeah well, that’s an experiment I wouldn’t care to try with my husband. I’m sure he’d be crushed, then he’d be angry, then he’d be done. Not that I’d blame him, but it certainly makes his love conditional. And this is a man who spent the better of 8 days, leaving only when I begged him to go home and deal with the kids, at my bedside when I was hospitalized last spring. This is a man who adores me. I just wouldn’t care to play games in order to find out how much.

    I really don’t think women get this, because they can, and that is what is actual very scary to most men who project our version of love onto women. How can she love me one day, and the next treat me like a total stranger?

    As I just said, I’m pretty sure that if I kicked DH in the teeth too many times, he would indeed treat me like a total stranger..that is, if I were lucky. I realize that his love is conditional, so I refrain from kicking too much.

    It basically said a man loves a woman like a woman loves her child. No matter how badly she fucks up, the love is still there.

    That may be true of some men. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to test out that hypothesis here. As tough as I can be, you’ve just found out my limits.

    We’ve been discussing these differences elsewhere extensively so I don’t want to repeat the whole discussion. The short version is women love men for what THEY DO not WHO THEY ARE. The love is conditional on some aspects of his “performance”.

    That’s bullshit. I’ve loved my husband for 25 years through all sorts of successes and failures, triumphs and disappointments, births and deaths, joys and hurts. I loved him when he didn’t have a pot to piss in, when he lost his job in the middle of my ultra-high risk pregnancy, and even when we were throwing shit at each other and screaming our lungs out at each other. I’m sorry that so many people haven’t had that experience.

    Can you understand why he might feel secure?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The short version is women love men for what THEY DO not WHO THEY ARE. The love is conditional on some aspects of his “performance”.

      Isn’t what we do an illustration of who we are? Isn’t that why it’s so important to judge a person by actions rather than pretty words?

      I don’t understand how a human being’s essence – his soul, if you will – can be separated from what he chooses to do.

      How can I know a man who does nothing? Who is he? How can I love him? Relationship is doing. It’s active.

      I’m utterly baffled by this claim. It makes no sense to me.

  • Plain Jane

    PS 2 OBS: In addition and summary to what I wrote, I’ll say holding an individual responsible for what some other people may have done, either to oneself or to other people, is collectivism at its very worst.

    PS 2 Susan: You put me on moderation yesterday, then took me off for a while, now I’m back on, but you gave no explanation as to which comments you found offending.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Plain Jane

      You’re in mod, and I’ll let through comments I think are fine. You’re doing well this morning, so far I have only disallowed the one stirring up the false rape debate again.

  • J

    @Desi

    God help that child. Any wonder why so many have trouble growing up? A grown-up would no longer be completely her own.

    Oh, I agree completely. I just explaining to Obs why a woman might not want to involve a man, not necessarily justifying it.

    My own mother was not one to let go easily. It caused problems between her and me for years. Letting kids go is struggle for most parents, espeially moms. I think that, because of my mom, I really hard work to let go.

  • Herb

    @Marellus

    As for your social and economic remedies, what you’re advocating is Supply Side Economics am I right ?

    No, I’m recommending a culture that celebrates those who do something.

    Time was a man who went out, earned a living, and saved some for his family had respect. The richest man in town was a respectable individual who was honored for his work and philanthropy, not shunned for his greed. A doctor was a respected profession instead of someone we sued if we received a less than perfect outcome. The guy who built and owned a movie theater was someone you thanked for providing entertainment not someone you sued because a nutjob came into his theater and shot people (Aurora survivors are planning on suing the theater, btw).

    Reducing it to tax policy or something like that is missing the point. While I don’t think economic incentives are unimportant the fact is a fundamental assumption of economics, that wants are unlimited while means are limited, may be incomplete. It is distinctly possible that at some point the incremental cost of wants may make them essentially disappear. To make people bear those costs you may need more than economic incentives.

    Young men in America have a baseline living that is pretty good. The apparent cost between a better material life and a better spiritual/emotional/whatever life seems very high. The apparent connection between their own efforts and being able to pay those costs seems very weak.

    Note two of those things are “apparent”. Apparent is the culture. A culture that says success is luck (parents, race, sex, knowing the right person, whatever) more than effort (education, work, inventiveness, creativity) is creating disincentive to apply effort.

    Consider, becoming a Domino’s franchise requires you to manage a store at a four star or better rating for a year first. You and I start out as Domino’s drivers and an oracle says one day one of us will own one while the other is still a driver. If you believe that luck and not effort will determine who will be who how inspired will you be to make any effort to get promoted and save money to own a franchise.

    That’s far more than supply side economics. It about what message we give our young people. The UMC is pulling away not just because of the resources it can give its children (although the difference is considerable) but the message it gives them as well: education and work matter, you are the master of your own destiny.

    Hell, isn’t Game, in part, telling the average frustrated Herb (heavens do I hate how my name is synonymous with loser and has been most of my life, dating back to Star Trek: TOS) he is the master of his own destiny.

    The military CAN do that for some. I don’t have a problem with the old sending a kid who did something stupid the choice of “Army or jail” because absorbing and fixing the handful is within the military’s capability. However, when the majority (or even a sizable fraction) of young men fit that description it’s beyond the military’s ability to fix and trying to make it fix them via conscription is less likely to fix them and more likely to break the military.

  • J

    My husband calls my laptop the crazy box for similar reasons.

    LMAO

  • Plain Jane

    ” Regardless until our oil, copper, beef, other raw materials, and consumer goods all come from the Americas the cost to not maintaining a blue water navy is sacrifice of our lifestyle until they do.”

    “We don’t have the capability anymore. It’s like the British Empire in the early 20th century. We’re going to have to learn to make do without colonial resources.”

    THIS IS NOT LONG TERM SUSTAINABLE. I support local empowerment.

    I never developed a taste for the avacados that grow natively in my area because I always consumed Hass from Mexico. It will be better for our physical and mental health as a nation in the long run if we start empowering local farming, green industries, and renewable, or at least more sustainable, resources.

    The USA is huge with plenty of resources. If done right we can become self-sufficient.

    There’s not much we “need” from overseas, though there’s much we “greed” from there.

    MKG once said,
    “The world has enough for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed.”

    I see that we are at least beginning to realize this. That’s a start.

  • Herb

    @INTJ

    What I mean is that for every nuclear attack submarine we build, China simply has to build a diesel submarine. If you want equal firepower, blue water navies are much more expensive.

    Even the advanced German diesel boats aren’t a match for nuclear boats. They are just as quiet when on battery but even the closed cycle boats have to snorkle at some point. Then their ass is ours.

    Wargames with the German Navy were always fun.

    Plus, the Germans have been doing high quality diesel opts since the early 1940s (yes, some of the old U-Boat men survived the war and helped build the modern German Navy). The Chinese, not so much. That’s part of what I was talking about in terms of experience and institutional knowledge. Having the tools is less than half the battle.

  • J

    NiceGuy: never stands up for himself
    Dickguy: always stands up for himself
    Goodman: balances the needs of self and other
    Greatman: finds ways that both can be satisfied together.

    I LOVE THIS!!!!

  • Herb

    @J

    NiceGuy: never stands up for himself
    Dickguy: always stands up for himself
    Goodman: balances the needs of self and other
    Greatman: finds ways that both can be satisfied together.

    I LOVE THIS!!!!

    MGTOW: Figures others can be responsible for their own happiness just like people tell him he is for his own.

  • Plain Jane

    Sounds like Joe is a cointelpro mole who doesn’t want unmarried men to have what he has – a happy and loving marriage to a wonderful wife. Weird that he would tell lonely guys in need of the intimate connection he’s already made not to go for it.

    Something’s amiss.

  • Herb

    @INTJ

    A PS on nuclear versus diesel boats: the nuclear boat will generally have more firepower as he has more power. Submarine batteries have much less capacity than a running reactor not just in terms of time underwater but absolute usable joules of energy. Compare the Type 212, the world’s most advanced diesel boat (with supplemental air-independent propulsion) with the Los Angeles, a 1970s nuclear boat. Then look at the Virginia and Yasen boats which are up to date nuclear boats.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb.

    Well said.

  • Plain Jane

    “They aren’t told about slut tells, gold diggers, carousel riders, or aging women. ”

    Aging women? LOL. They’re EYES tell them.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb.

    I’ve read that Karl Doenitz begged Hitler for more submarines, so that he could win the war for him. Hitler never consented. By the war’s end, the USA were producing Liberty Ships faster than Germany could sink them.

    So what if, say China, latched onto a similar doctrine regarding submarines :

    Don’t build ‘em fancy, just build lots & lots of ‘em …

    Would the USA have the wherewithal to deal with this ?

    Look at the Sherman Tank vs German Tiger in WWII. The Sherman was inferior to the Tiger, but could be produced in greater numbers than it was destroyed.

    The Tiger was a battlefield winner, but there were so few of them.

    So what would happen if China adopted a similar doctrine ?

    (Not to mention them reverse engineering an Essex Class Carrier, and producing them much faster than they could be sunk)

    But then again, I’ve read that the wars of this century, will essentially be proxy wars …

  • J

    Herb–I wish things were going better for you. You deserve more.

  • Plain Jane

    A Male Commenter:

    You wouldn’t be suggesting people either get married, or enjoy their marriages if it was shown that more than 67% of married men were blowing up their marriages because they like screwing other more beautiful women, and that they could take over half all your earnings and kick you out of the house you bought and took your kids from you and the police would sit there ready to kick you out or arrest you if you made too much noise about it.

    Susan’s reply:

    I would suggest that women choose very, very carefully. Date a number of men, learn as much as possible about his history, have a relationship for a period of time and make sure you test him in crises. Does he ever look at other women? How many women has he had sex with? Is he the least bit cocky? What do his friends tease him about? What is his relationship history? How does he explain his breakups? What is his personality like? Is he impulsive? Spontaneous? Does he always do what he says he is going to do? etc. etc.

    I essentially put my husband through these paces before I married him. And I would have married him even with a 67% chance of infidelity in the male population.

    My comment:

    As well you should have Susan, but the Manosphere will say “oh the irony” considering you’ve admitted to some sexcapades with an “exotic foreign exchange student” as well as a “jock” to name just a few, during your post-grad education. Of course that you said your husband was also a popular guy with the ladies doesn’t matter, because in their world only women are damaged by non-LTR sex, and their “pair bonding abilities” rendered nil thereof.

    SASSY 6519

    “I think a big part of it aligns with my opinion that a lot of men truly believe that they can’t do any better or get anyone better. Instead of pursuing who they really want, despite the fear of being turned down, they settle for aging women or women with children.”

    This happened to me when I was still really young! A man who made it clear that my ethnicity was not his preferred one but that I was the exception because he “loved” me, dated me all the while me encouraging him to date women of the ethnicities who’s looks he preferred. Plus I was a few years (or more) older than him but we were both in our 20s. I even offered to open up our relationship and help him find the right girl!

    He insisted vehemently that I was “the one” and he didn’t want to date others. I wasn’t in love with him so him dating others would not have bothered me but he insisted he loved me. When I started to believe it and trust him – that’s when the shit hit the fan.

    Later it became clear he used me because the women he really WAS attracted to were not attracted to him, and to get out of his less than ideal situation. When a woman of his preferred ethnicity came along and showed some social niceness, he ran with it, dumped me and guilt-tripped HER into being with him.

  • Desiderius

    “MGTOW: Figures others can be responsible for their own happiness just like people tell him he is for his own.”

    Good luck with that.

    Cliff Notes version.

  • Herb

    @Desiderius

    Donne Meditation XVII, really?

    Being responsible for my own happiness does not preclude me from interacting with others. It tells me, however, that I alone am responsible for choosing which others and how to interact with them. To the extend others force interactions upon I can choose my own reactions to them.

    The “Figures others can be responsible for their own happiness just like people tell him he is for his own.” stems from being told over and over when I complained about women liking thugs that “I wasn’t entitled to female attention” and “if you weren’t a loser women would like you” and “became X and you’ll be attractive to women”. Even suggesting I learn Game is telling me, “your ability to be happy with women is contingent upon your own actions.”

    If said happiness is contingent upon my own actions, regardless, why add the additional random factor of someone else’s happiness?

    As far ad Donne goes, however, I’d argue in the context of the current SMP the MGTOW is not to whom Donne warning is addressed:

    “Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that. ”

    Does the MGTOW think he is un-ill and not know the danger he faces? If that were true would he have selected the path of divorcing himself not from one woman but the idea of romantic entanglements? He knows quite well the bell could toll for him, having heard it toll for his fellow or perhaps his prior self and thus, taking the treasure of that man’s tribulation unto his own heart chosen to ward himself. Perhaps he has not done so in the security of God, as Donne would have us, but he has chosen to see for his security all the same.

    Indeed, no man is an island, although we are encouraged to think of ourselves that way and not apply the lesson of our ELPed friend or prior relationship to our own lives, except perhaps to chastise our selves for not giving her what she needed. In that respect, the Red Pill is the tolling bell which we each take unto our hearts in our own way.

  • Herb

    @J

    Herb–I wish things were going better for you. You deserve more.

    Forgive my bleak Catholicism, but no one gets what they deserve. We all do much better.

  • Herb

    @Desiderius

    That said, thank you for reminding me I haven’t listened to The Highwayman in forever.

    Although I never thought of it in these terms before it seems Noyes understood the appeal of the bad boy over a century ago. Although his was a noble bad boy in the end.

  • J

    I hope things improve, Herb.

  • Carmen

    @Mr. Nervous Toes

    Yeah I completely agree with you, but getting laid was never my intention. I know how to get laid if I’d want to, but that’s not what I want. I do hope that one day a guy will notice how I am capable of taking care of others and enjoy it. And appreciates it.

    Thanks a lot for the talk by Brene Brown! I’d seen her talks on Ted.com, and like the one you linked, I think they’re very interesting and helpful. Yeaaah, gotta admit to myself that I qualify as a neurotic perfectionist, gonna look more into this vulnerability thing…

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    As I just said, I’m pretty sure that if I kicked DH in the teeth too many times, he would indeed treat me like a total stranger..that is, if I were lucky. I realize that his love is conditional, so I refrain from kicking too much.

    Yeah likewise my husband never gave me the impression that he could put up with my crap for the reason that “he loved me” in fact I know that he felt out of love with many of his exes because they though they could kick him to their hearts content, he is a patient nice man but mistreatment is a bone killer, we gave each other our list of deal breakers when were dating and we both make sure not to even touch those places, so yeah maybe we outliers have outliers husbands? ;)

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Herb/ Marellus/ and all
    Most Americans are grossly delusional about the extent of China’s growth and its level of economic prowess. In the last 20 years, China has grown by 1800%; that does not even take into consideration the large swaths of the country, such as the coastal areas and Inner Mongolia (each containing tens of millions of people) where the economic reforms went further and which have seen growth of 4000% to 6250% during the same period. China is already the world’s largest exporter and largest industrial producer (in dollar terms); and that still does not account for its undervalued currency. It is claimed that the Yuan is undervalued by about 40%, but if you have ever traveled around China, as I have, you can see the number is more likely 200% to 300%. Now that may seem absurd, but remember the Japanese were in a similar situation prior to the Plaza Accord of 1985; in a five year period the exchange rate went from an average of 250 yen to the dollar to 120 yen to the dollar. Immediately the Japanese found rather than crippling them, as many Americans hoped, it made their cost of raw materials imports lower (increasing margins) and made their saving more valuable (allowing their 80s spending spree).
    There are some who claim that China is a bubble, but the facts don’t support that claim. The Chinese banking system is still state owned, as such it does not lend to the private sector, but to local governments and state owned enterprise. However, most state owned enterprises are self-finance (through retained earnings) and most local government can pay for infrastructure development via land sales. As such the Chinese banking system is completely unleveraged, the 30% of income the Chinese masses save just sits in the bank; with the exception of real estate loans (which require a 50% down payment) there is little bank lending in China. The private sector has financed its growth with “grey market” borrowing; this involves face to face borrowing at interest rates on average of 18% per month. The lack of banking lend has not hurt Chinese growth; in every measure of output, production, and infrastructure, with the exception of installed power capacity (and the Chinese are opening a new power plant every day) the Chinese have the US beat.
    How does this translate to military power? Well, let’s look at steel production; world output is 1.4 billion tons, of which China produces 683 million tons and the US produces 86 million tons; we simply don’t have the industrial base to compete. However, let’s look at the money; America is straining to maintain military spending of $800 billion, which is 5% of our GDP. The Chinese have a stated policy of spending only 2.5% of their GDP on the military; once they reach $30,000.00 USD per capita GDP that will amount to $975 billion and that is without debt and deficits.
    Now, you might say they will never reach those numbers, but remember there are already regions in China where per capita GDP is already $25,000. The real danger for the West is when the Chinese allow their currency to float; as I have shown it is grossly undervalued and they stand to benefits from allowing it to float. The Chinese premier Wen Jinbao has already stated the Yuan will float in ten years’ time; if you think China’s growth was impressive before, wait until the Chinese private sector can borrow at 5% a year instead of 18% per month. The danger is that the Yuan will become the world’s reserve currency and that will spell doom for Western Civilization.
    Over the last 40 years, the West has been kept afloat by dollar inflation; it is direct here in US, indirect (by overnight bank borrowing and conversion to local currencies) elsewhere. At the core lies the fact that the West is devoid of real saving and capital; without the world’s willingness to accept dollars the house of cards falls apart. The Chinese are already the world’s largest producers, consumers, manufacturers, exports, importers, and savers; by all rights the status of reserve currency belongs to them, they need only take it. However, for the West, a shift to the Yuan means a reduction in economic condition akin to abject poverty; think Mexico. In fact, this ties into the sites general theme because the death of Western dominance, and the state of privation that will follow, will also mean the death of feminism and a return to patriarchy (if not something even harsher). We are likely to see the world become more conservative (in an Asian sense) on matters of sexual relations (among other things) as they will reject Western ideas with the West’s demise; no one wants to hear the ideas of or imitate the behavior of a failed civilization. So you may rejoice in knowing the sexual dynamics that have reigned for the last 40 years are almost at end (15 years tops), but what a price to pay.

  • Sai

    “Sai’s brilliance is breathtaking. She’s got the charm and the smarts – the humor and the insight. A rare combination.

    She should either run for office or become a screenwriter a la Lena Dunham.”

    Aww, that’s a really nice thing to say.
    There are a thousand reasons why I do not belong in a public office, but I do like to write. :)

  • Sai

    @Desiderius
    That makes lots of sense. Thank you.

    @Marellus, Herb, INTJ
    I enjoyed the heck out of following this conversation, but…

    HerrKaiser is probably right. With my woefully lacking military knowledge (which I’m trying to improve) I can only come up with a couple of solutions:
    A. As stated previously, get India/Vietnam/Japan (Korea? Russia?) to blow up the Three Gorges Dam and some other things (it’ll be a shame because I like Chinese culture/history but I guess that’s what happens when you go to war)
    B. Capitulate and/or starve (I’ll make enough *Kool-Aid* for whoever wants it) -at least certain Netizens will be satisfied with the disappearance of female power

    (and I was never angry at Mr. Cathy, he was exercising his free speech)

    Also: “Aurora survivors are planning on suing the theater, btw”
    WTF?

  • Höllenhund

    I think you’re wrong about that. Well, maybe not wrong about the average American woman.

    Yes – unfortunately.

    But I think that when push comes to shove, 95% of women would be scared sh*tless by the idea of a world without men.

    But that wasn’t my point. The most likely possibility is that the “men are necessary” will indeed find its way into mainstream discourse – Michelle Obama’s recent statements about the importance of fathers were just one example -, but it will not be packaged and received in the way you want it to be, because it will merely be incorporated into the Man Up Campaign. It won’t start a hard-headed discussion about the social consequences of feminism and the legal climate men have to live in. It won’t create an environment where people finally begin to think in terms of incentives when it comes to men. There won’t be any talk of legal reform, and there certainly won’t be any talk about rolling back women’s legal entitlements in order to benefit men.

    The message will be simple: men need to man up in order to make themselves necessary. They have to demonstrate that they can adapt to the modern world and make themselves needed. If they refuse to do that, they will keep becoming irrelevant and empowered, independent womyn will have no choice but to do it all themselves, human reproduction included.

    This mentality is so deeply ingrained in the West that it’s rampant even in the supposedly Red Pill Manosphere. One can always come across views like “women are screwed up because there aren’t enough alpha manly men for them”, “men need to learn Game to provide women with the mates they need for a fulfilling life”, “men need to man up because our civilization is threatened” and son.

    Feminists may be malignant, but they aren’t stupid. They are political geniuses. They have already co-opted and corrupted Western Christianity and conservatism. When Game and the men’s movement gains enough mainstream exposure, they will co-opt those as well, in order to de-fang the potential opposition and to mobilize yet another tool against men.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms walsh:
    Youre still not hearing me.

    Everything youre talking about ive already seen up close and personal, including the notion that there just aint enough “good men” to go around. This is what quite a few sistas of a certain cohort tell themselves to assauge their egos and failures.

    As buss says-and you know this-there has always been and will always be, a cohort of males who for whatever the reason, will not make the cut. This is why my response to ms ion, which you refused to post up, was so important-ragging on the pookies and rays rays of the world arent her problem. Her problem is that she, like so many sistas (and by extension, white women too) is that shes priced herself outta the market. The customers she wants isnt interested in what shes selling. Period.

    Right off the top of my head i can think up easily a dozen or so brothas, all of them like i said, good looking, gainfully employed, nice homes/condos/apts, and NONE of them wish to jump the broom. Why?

    Because, for one thing, the pickings aint anywhere near as great as many sistas would like to believe about themselves; and two, yea, marriage is a bad deal for the guy.

    Now, understand this ms walsh: none of the guys im talking about will ever write or blog about any of this. They dont know who you are, who the manosphere is and to tell you the truth, couldnt care less. They simply see whats out there and respond accordingly. Again: this is real, and the sistas know it. Worse, they know theres precious little they can do about it either.

    Read ralph richard banks’ book “is marriage for white people?”. He lays it all out right there in black and white.

    What a lot of women simply refuse to honestly grapple with is the fact that the very things that have set them free have also put them at a distinct disadvntage when it comes to putting a ring on it-and thats not even accounting for the fact that fewer women exist today who are wifey material to begin with-and this is especially true among the cohort that is your singular focus. Keep in mind, i have three sisters, two of whom have been married for well over a decade. My brother? Same deal. And my remaining sister? Single but has no problem attracting boyfriends. I happen to know black women who on paper are a catch and yet they are about a step away from being full on cat ladies-and youre saying a guy like me is supposed to “man up” for that?

    Ill pass.

    I know you have a particular goal and focus but at some point one really should pay just a bit of attention to whats going on right in front of them in realtime. Here you have a guy whose seen all this go down in his neck of the woods to say nothing of all the many guys in her own living room telling her the same things. Youre giving credence to the notion that it is women, not men, who are poor listeners.

    Im just sayin…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @hollenhund:
    Just to piggyback on your point about michelle obama and the recent dem convention-well, if you (not you personally) dont get whats going on at this point i dont know what else to tell ya. I was done with obama back when he was campaigning for potus in 08 and took time out to upbraid brothas for being “deadbeat dads”. I mean, do jewish candidates upbraid fellow jews for how theyre treating the palestinians-and then turnaround and ask them for their vote?

    Really?

    But, the fact that so many black men vote for obama anyway, just goes to prove yet again, how strong that blue pill really is.

    This isht is deep…

    O.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms j:
    Five will get you ten that there are twice as many mary pols as there are lori gottliebs. And this trend will continue, and for reasons you might not think.

    For one thing, going the turkeybaster route doesnt give the same ego validation effect. A man who is willing to impregnate a woman-especially if said man is one a woman wants-is a huge ego boost. Going the ivf route is the ultimate sign that you as a woman simply couldnt make this happen. This is what gottlieb is talking about.

    Second, like i said before, ivf is expensive, unpleasant and has a failure rate thats quite high but we arent supposed to notice or discuss this fact. Sure, the ultimate losers on the female side who arent stompdown lesbians will resort to it if they have the loot, but most baby mamas wont happen that way among the white umc; what will happen instead is theyll do what the homegirls are doing down the way but try their darnest to reframe it, like the whole “choice moms” thing. Of course they aint fooling anybody. At present the oow white mc birthrate exceeds 30%-up some 4x from where it was circa 1960. It will continue to rise. The convergence is real.

    As for your point about nice white ladies adopting, youre spot on-and so is sasha baron cohen. His “bruno” discusses exactly what youre talking about when he goes to africa and adopts a black baby boy, then goes on a talk show and tells the black audience that his son is named oj! Lmao. That was a riot, and again goes to prove just how vapid so many of those “heroic” women really are.

    They also prove again just how much a sham fatherhood really is-its important if and when women say it is. Which can and does change with the weather.

    And im supposed to “man up” for that?

    Ill pass…

    O.

  • SayWhaat

    @ PJ:

    Later it became clear he used me because the women he really WAS attracted to were not attracted to him, and to get out of his less than ideal situation. When a woman of his preferred ethnicity came along and showed some social niceness, he ran with it, dumped me and guilt-tripped HER into being with him

    Ugh. Sorry that happened to you. And if she was able to be guilt-tripped into being in a relationship, well, that makes me worry about her, too.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    How are teenage guys supposed to just magically learn game, even if they determine that all the stuff that’s being fed to them is bullshit?

    It’s terribly awful to expect a 17-21 year old to somehow strike this supposed balance of alpha and beta when:
    1. Everyone is telling him not to
    2. He is socially ostracized if he tries
    3. He has few masculine male role models
    4. He probably doesn’t have the money for a full wardrobe and “life experiences”
    5. He doesn’t have any idea what this “balance” is, what this alpha vs. beta thing, or what Game is.

    Much better to just tell 17 year old boys to act like dicks and let them figure out the balance later.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    N=1 and all that, but I only ever fell in love with two girls, and I can definitely assure you that I do not love the first anymore. She’s a cliche right out of the Manosphere and it’s quite fun to laugh at what’s become of her life

  • Ted D

    Susan – “As I said, I believe that love is conditional, we are all capable of destroying the love our partners feel for us. Furthermore, I want it to be conditional. Believing that my husband would be in love with me no matter what I did or how I behaved is a form of supplication, pedestalization and a massive shit test fail.”

    I find this statement interesting, and I’d like to make a few points. First, *I* was never led to believe in “conditional” love from my wife. Again, from my Catholic upbringing, I was taught that marriage was for life. Somewhere in there I was also taught that marriage meant love. So, logically speaking, marriage means unconditional love for life. And, I was told that NO ONE can break what God has created. That idea was supported by my family and friends while growing up. When I would see with my own eyes that things were not that way, I was told by those same family/friends/Church leaders that “those” young women were just confused/bad/immature and that “good” girls don’t want for “bad boy” attention (and all the rest of the lies I and other men here have reported). Yes, I could see something was wrong, but as a naive young man (under 18 for sure) I trusted the people closest to me without any question of their authority or genuine concern for my well being. It would have been considered disrespectful in my house to question my mother or grandparents, so I didn’t. I left the Church in my late teens early 20′s because THAT was when I started to discover the lies from them, as well as all the Priest sex scandals that broke out. I realized that if these “men of the cloth” could commit such horrible crimes, then I should have NEVER trusted their authority.

    “Believing that my husband would be in love with me no matter what I did or how I behaved is a form of supplication, pedestalization and a massive shit test fail”

    Second, this particular part strikes me as a rather Femalcentric view of love. Again, knowing what I do about “pedestals” and all, I understand WHY you feel this way. But, *I* really do not feel like this at all. I would truly like to have a relationship with my wife that is not conditional. Not because I want to put her on a pedestal or supplicate to her, but because marriage is supposed to be FOR LIFE, and that means once she decided to say “I Do”, in the eyes of God she is required to at least love and honor me. No where in those vows does it say anything about “conditional love” or under what circumstance she gets to bail out on me. Does that make a situation that I can abuse? Yep. But, THAT is why you are supposed to “put your mate through the paces” (as you put it) before you marry. I have no intention of sitting on my ass now that I’m married, but I would surely like to think that IF something tragic were to happen, I can expect my wife to continue loving and honoring me regardless, just as I would for her.

    This time I didn’t want to be married in a church of any denomination. Christian marriage is a lie in our current Western society, and lies really piss me off. I expected the lies I was told to be true, and I based my entire life ON those lies. I made specific choices about my future based on those lies. I sacrificed for those lies. Do I understand why unconditional love is a lie? Sure, I do now. Call it willful ignorance, naivety, or stupidity if you want. The bottom line is: *I* was led to believe in something that simply DOES NOT exist.

    But in the end, I at least still cherish the idea of real unconditional love from a mate. What I feel now that I know better is a real sense of loss, and a palpable sense of insecurity that I’m not sure is curable. Some days it is almost as bad as the buzz of lust I had as a teenager, constantly buzzing in the back of my head: it could all end tomorrow. I can clearly see how betaization happened to me now. The “happy wife, happy life” meme is just another way of saying if she isn’t happy with you today, you may find yourself single tomorrow. The problem is that it isn’t in my power to make her happy, and that means the conditions for her love actually rest on her shoulders. It is completely out of my control. I used to believe unconditional love and “til death do us part” was intended to fix that inequity, but that went out the window when we as a society stopped enforcing it.

    And do you know what makes it worse? Seeing women stay with men that abuse them, beat them, treat them like shit, and continue to defend him when others are critical. Because to me it looks an awful lot like unconditional love for a person that DOES NOT deserve it. Yet, there I was perhaps treating a women a little too good, and a divorce was my thanks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      irst, *I* was never led to believe in “conditional” love from my wife. Again, from my Catholic upbringing, I was taught that marriage was for life. Somewhere in there I was also taught that marriage meant love. So, logically speaking, marriage means unconditional love for life.

      Ted, did you never know any old married couples who couldn’t stand each other, or at least didn’t seem in love any more? Even at 5 I knew that my grandparents lived in a state of uneasy alliance. They didn’t divorce, but that doesn’t mean they were happy.

      I’ve also known families where the dad cheated and the mom was long-suffering about it, i.e. stuck. I understood very well that infidelity was not a loving act, and repeated recreational adultery could not exist with love. So I guess I had my illusions tempered at a young age. Am I unusual?

      in the eyes of God she is required to at least love and honor me.

      In the eyes of God, we are all required to love one another. However, you cannot make attachment a requirement. The level of deep attachment will depend directly on your behavior in the relationship. It’s true that abused women often have unhealthy attachments to their abusers, and that is a form of mental illness.

      I can imagine certain actions that would cause me to stop loving my husband. Incest, for example. That is an act that would utterly destroy any respect or affection I had for him. And that is appropriate. If love were truly unconditional, human beings would have scant motivation to do the right thing.

  • Desiderius

    “I hope things improve, Herb.”

    Likewise. The bleak mid-winter does beget spring, and Susan is not alone in her labors on his behalf.

    Magnificat anima mea Dominum,
    et exsultavit spiritus meus in Deo salvatore meo,
    quia respexit humilitatem ancillae suae.
    Ecce enim ex hoc beatam me dicent omnes generationes,
    quia fecit mihi magna,
    qui potens est,
    et sanctum nomen eius,
    et misericordia eius in progenies et progenies
    timentibus eum.
    Fecit potentiam in brachio suo,
    dispersit superbos mente cordis sui;
    deposuit potentes de sede
    et exaltavit humiles;
    esurientes implevit bonis
    et divites dimisit inanes.
    Suscepit Israel puerum suum,
    recordatus misericordiae,
    sicut locutus est ad patres nostros,
    Abraham et semini eius in saecula.

  • Herb

    @HerrKaiser and Sai

    Do not confuse an argument that the Chinese will have difficulty projecting power directly against the West with an argument the Chinese economy hasn’t grown. I’m well aware of China’s industrial output.

    My argument is:

    1. They have huge infrastructure vulnerabilities, although ones I doubt the West would exploit (destruction of the Three Gorges Damn in wartime, and I mean by the US not someone else) would be hugely disruptive. The only comparable dam strike I can imagine will be when the Israelis nuke Aswan as part of a Temple weapons launch upon Israel’s destruction. However, the civilian casualties and suffering that would result will stay the US as we are not the country of WW2 any longer.

    2. They have two methods of direct power projection against the west in a conventional war, trans-oceanic strikes and a land war across Asia. Both options are problematic. A land war across Asia is a long way to go against people who won’t be happy about it. A trans-oceanic strike involves a blue water naval battle. Operating a blue water navy is not just an industrial exercise (although those are necessary) but also a skill exercise. In world history three nations have really been good at it, maybe four or five but really the Dutch, the British, and the US. Consider the basic activity of underway replenishment. At this date there are still only two navies which can do side-by-side underway replenishment: the US and the UK. These are the kinds of issues China has to face to project power against the West. They are much, much better prepared to stop Western power projection against them then they are against us.

    The short and medium term result (through 2050) will be, I suspect, an end the era of relatively independent national interactions that the Pax Americana brought. Since WW2, with exceptions, nations were free to choose their own actions to a degree unprecedented in history. Most of history has been organized by spheres of influence. An assertive China and a retreating US will lead to reversion to the norm. China will dictate the terms of East Asian politics to its surrounding nations, many of whom will become client states, while India does the same in Southwest Asia with the two completing in Southeast. Historically the region has been in both spheres of influence…don’t forget Angkor Wat is a Hindu temple complex while the Chinese minority in Indonesia has represented a strong merchant class. Also, the two will clash over freedom of the seas in the Indian Ocean as China is more dependent on Middle Eastern oil than the US. I suspect the Chinese interest in a blue water navy is less driven by a desire to challenge the US in the Pacific basin (at least for the next half century) and more to insure the free flow of oil. Also, China’s buying of Australian resource and development of African clients hint at movements to secure strategic metals rare in the nation. Both the oil and metals issue are solvable with an invasion of former Soviet territories but they seem to think for now sea routes are easier.

    In the same time period Europe, especially Western Europe, will become increasingly irrelevant as immigration and birthrates undo the victory of Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours. Africa will continue its tradition of being carved up by someone else, probably India and China this time with Islamic North Africa keeping on keeping on. The most interesting African conflict will be the three way struggle between India, China, and various Islamic states over the Horn of Africa.

    As for the Americas, I have the fewest thoughts here. In the next 50 years no nation will rise to the point of challenging the US for dominance of the hemisphere. Although I suspect China and India would be willing to deal with the US reasserting a strong Monroe doctrine and enforcing their sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere similar to what China will do in East Asia and India in Southwest Asia I doubt the US has the will to do so.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “First, there’s a strong flavor here of male supremacy (or female inferiority if you prefer). ”

    I’ve been reading the thread in question, so I’ll chime in here. Yes, that blog has a general sense of “male supremacy”, but in this particular case I don’t see that being pushed. If you want to take it that way, it is your right to do so, but I believe the thread is simply pointing out how men and women often view love differently. This in particular rings true for me: women DO NOT love men the same way men love women. I don’t know if men are more unconditional or not across the board, but I certainly followed that trend. From the time we started dating until after she left, I loved my ex-wife exactly the same. She got hurt at work: I still loved her. She gained weight: I still loved her. She told me she wasn’t “in love” with me anymore: I still loved her. She packed her bags and left: I still loved her. Like I said, I still love her to an extent to this very day. However, what love I have left for her IS conditional now. But, that is because she is no longer my wife. She is perhaps a little more than a friend, being as we had sex and children together. But, I treat her more as a friend than anything else now, and all of my friendships are indeed conditional. I struggle with my new marriage because my instinct is to go back to that unconditional love model, but I know beyond all doubt it would eventually destroy the marriage. So, I love her unconditionally in silence, and do my best to make it appear to be conditional. I have to pretend to love her less than I do, because to love her the way *I* believe I should would be perceived as weakness to her, as demonstrated in your last comment:

    “Believing that my husband would be in love with me no matter what I did or how I behaved is a form of supplication, pedestalization and a massive shit test fail”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I just took a look over there, and I strongly disagree with your characterization. I couldn’t bear to read it all, but I did see discussion of “the female incapacity to…” I also saw at least one commenter suggest it was over the top.

      Ted, I like you. You’re a great and thoughtful commenter. But I want to be perfectly clear. Render unto Rollo what is Rollo’s. I do not want that discussion moved over here.

      I’m sorry if you don’t like Rollo (who does?) but HUS is not the kinder, gentler venue for hammering out these issues. If I bring an issue up, fine, have at it, but importing this crap to HUS is not OK.

  • Desiderius

    TedD,

    “Because to me it looks an awful lot like unconditional love for a person that DOES NOT deserve it.”

    Yes, right now they’re the only ones many women allow themselves to feel love for, and that doesn’t just go for the SMP. Things are out of whack. They are unlikely to remain so.

  • Abbot

    Women need men to be men they want to need

    “young women accepted that sex was a dirty thing they should go out of their way to avoid, lest the taint of it made them unmarriageable.”
    –Amanda Marcotte

    Solution – make em all tainted. What do you think Marcotte and her ilk are up to?

    http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/rush-limbaugh?before=1347307026
    .

  • deti

    @ Ted D:

    “I was told by those same family/friends/Church leaders that “those” young women were just confused/bad/immature and that “good” girls don’t want for “bad boy” attention (and all the rest of the lies I and other men here have reported). Yes, I could see something was wrong, but as a naive young man (under 18 for sure) I trusted the people closest to me without any question of their authority or genuine concern for my well being.”

    +1

    My experience was similar but a little different.

    Growing up we all knew of people who divorced. But invariably the only people who ever talked about it were the women. You never, ever heard the man’s side of the story; and if you did, it was always discounted as a lie or evil or incomplete.

    I was always, always told that divorce was always the man’s fault, never ever a woman’s fault. Women were divorced because their ex husbands were drunks or shiftless layabouts. Less often they were cheaters or abusers. And the women went through horrible ordeals with these men.

    If you heard from the ex husbands, the stories were:

    “she refused to have sex with me.”

    “She verbally abused me from the time we got married up to the time I left.”

    “The woman absolutely hates me — she has from the time we got married. Shit, I left because I couldn’t take it anymore.”

    “I have no idea what happened. I came home to an empty house.”

    My parents, the church and all civic authority just said variations of “women don’t lie about these things. She is more credible than he is. A divorce is his fault, not hers. He is at fault, not her.”

    Then I was told:

    “Young deti, if you don’t want to end up like those evil men, you had better straighten up and fly right. Don’t you dare abuse any of these sweet, angelic little paragons of virtue! Don’t you dare try to have sex with any of them! You had better be nice to them! They are good, pure and sweet. Your sexual urges and desires are evil, perverse and bad; and it’s your job to keep them in check.

    “Those bad men got divorced and fucked over because they were not nice to their wives. If they had only been nice, they would still be married to their perfect, angelic, pure women. So if you are having relationship trouble, it is because you are not being nice enough. It is because you are not giving her what she wants. You better be nice to your GFs and give them everything they want. Her wants and needs come first, always and forever. Your childrens’ needs are second. Your needs are a distant third, if they are even considered at all. Your wants and desires are completely irrelevant and you need to put them out of your mind and heart. ”

    “Do all this and you will have a good and happy marriage. Go forth, be fruitful and multiply, young deti!”

  • Escoffier

    Susan, apart from the issue of “warning,” the important issue here is morality, no?

    I mean, suppose a guy does go totally beta over the course of 2-3 years, does in fact receive many “signals” but does not know how to interpret them. Meanwhile he remains in every other respect a good man.

    Then he gets the divorce bomb and, yeah, to him if SEEMS like it came out of the blue even though there were signs he should have picked up on.

    The fundamentally important question here is, signs or no, was she justified?

    Beyond that, I recall your post about Athol’s “exotic pet” analogy, which I agreed with. But you sound in this thread a little like you are confirming the exotic pet thesis: women are difficult to handle, you better know what you are doing, bub, and learn to read her signs and learn how to keep her happy, otherwise it’s on you if everything falls apart.

    Of course love is conditional, I would not expect my wife to stay with me in the event of truly bad behavior on my part, or if I got fat and lazy for years on end and she made her complaints very directly and I refused to make changes. But I also hope (and believe) that I have not married a woman who will leave me for mere “beta-ness” when in other respects I am still doing everything right, even if I can’t always read her “signs.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      But you sound in this thread a little like you are confirming the exotic pet thesis: women are difficult to handle, you better know what you are doing, bub, and learn to read her signs and learn how to keep her happy, otherwise it’s on you if everything falls apart.

      That is not my intent. I don’t think it’s men’s job to puzzle out the meaning of silence or mixed signals. And I don’t think this applies just to women either. Men withdraw emotionally in marriages as well, whether they end in divorce or not. “Not divorced” =/ happy.

      The responsibility for communication in a relationship is a shared one. Regardless of sex, there is no good reason anyone should ever say “I never saw this coming.” If that’s true, you had your head in the sand. The signs we’re talking about here are not so difficult to read:

      1. She avoids sex.
      2. She is not interested in conversation.
      3. You find her crying or glum. (Elizabeth Gilbert cried all night in her bathroom for several nights in a row. Just saying – there were signs.)
      4. She is irritable or cross in general.
      5. She does not initiate spontaneous, non-sexual affection.
      6. She is argumentative, even in public.
      7. Increasingly, her interests are not shared.
      8. She prefers to be alone in the evenings after dinner.

      I could go on and on. I think it’s safe to say that every single man using Athol’s MAP experienced most if not all of these signs. It’s not the man’s fault if his wife feels this way, necessarily, but if he chooses willful ignorance or denial, that’s on him.

      But I also hope (and believe) that I have not married a woman who will leave me for mere “beta-ness” when in other respects I am still doing everything right, even if I can’t always read her “signs.”

      Oof, here we go again with the beta. I married my husband for his beta traits, so I can’t answer this question. If you mean that your wife shouldn’t leave you if you make her the de facto leader of both the marriage and household, then I might agree she shouldn’t, but I can understand why she would want to.

      For the record, I regard my marriage vows as sacred and would not divorce my husband frivolously. Obviously.

  • http://Obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

    @ms j, ms walsh:
    As ive said before and it bears repeating-its very easy to paint the manosphere as a bunch of loonies. Ive gone on record during my tenure at the spearhead, for taking many of the fellas there to task for many of the very same things you both are talking about here. Ditto for my time at roissys, and ms j youre my witness. Its hard to think of a more pointed critic of the manosphere than me, someone whos actually been published at some of the biggest and best known manosphere venues.

    Nevertheless, the message of the manosphere, is real. And again: the fact that barely a discussion can go by here or anywhere else women get together online, without some lady mentioning said sphere in some way or another, proves the point that theres a there there. As much as so many ladies try to deny this, they know that a heck of alot of what welmer, roissy, roosh and others say, is true a lot more often than not.

    If either of you has noticed, ive never gone in on guys for choosing to marry, or to partner with a woman for whatever reason they wished; i see it as a personal choice. Nor have either of you seen me weigh in on “hypergamy” discussions, or go round and round on false rape accusations, or get to foaming at the mouth over say, the cuckold bait and switch. I dont go into that because while i certainly can see where the fellas are coming from, mine is a completely different focus which by now should be clear:

    I want women to fully pay for the cost of freedom, because freedom aint free, and in guyland this is both implicitly and explicitly understood. From my neck of the woods, women want to get all the bennies of freedom but none of the costs. I want to impose the maximum of costs, because thats how it works in the real world, and i wouldnt have it any other way for myself.

    The bill for “freedom” and “choice” is now coming due for many women, and whether they want to or not, they will pay. Now, does that mean, that no women will marry and happily at that? Of course not. But what it will mean is that we will have to contend with a loud cohort of spinsters, something thats unprecedented on a peacetime world stage, precisely due to the “four sirens” theory put forth by roissy. The very things that have made women free, have also made many of them miserable.

    Part of the price women must pay for freedom and choice is the realization that men now have it too. And it may mean that said women arent part of the plan. Now that doesnt necessarily mean *no women* are involved-just that *they* ie, certain women may not be part of it. Nor will it mean that men wont have meaningulf interactions with women either-it just will mean that for many men it will take a different shape than from eras previous. I want women to understand, and embrace this new way of thinking. Because if they dont they only reveal themselves to be selfish and disengenuous-and guys dont like that much. If they truly value freedom and choice, they will embrace this. I think its fair to say that there isnt a heck of alot of evidence that this is indeed the case.

    Women have to accept that there are real costs for their choices, and that they arent the only ones who have a right to make theirs. But most importantly, they have to understand that no ones really all that interested in hearing them go on and on about their “woes”. Women today live lives that are unheard of in the history of the world but it does come at a price.

    They must learn how to bear them the same way men have always done…

    …in silence.

    Until then, guys like me will continue to speak out, find our voice, and make the case as to how and why they should be quiet, and keep it moving.

    This is the big takeaway of the manosphere.

    O.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Women have to accept that there are real costs for their choices, and that they arent the only ones who have a right to make theirs. But most importantly, they have to understand that no ones really all that interested in hearing them go on and on about their “woes”. Women today live lives that are unheard of in the history of the world but it does come at a price.

      Eh, I have no problem with this, but that is not the motive behind many of the blogs in the ‘sphere. Or if it is, they’ve lost their way. Calls to repeal suffrage are common, and I’ve seen plenty of suggestions wishing women outright harm. I’ve been threatened with physical violence before, which was very frightening given my writing under my real identity.

      If there is a valid message, it’s at least partially being obscured by loonies, and that really is a serious problem – for them.

      By the way, Obs, quite a lot of the talk of the ‘sphere happens here because she ‘sphere inserts itself into the discussions. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but your notion that women fall asleep at night stewing about the manosphere is way off, IMO. (Although it’s true of me. :) ) I think most women appreciate at least part of the message. The women here are def OK with Game when practiced ethically.

  • deti

    The divorce that was closest to me happened when I was about 7. My mom’s brother divorced his first wife. I was told then that they just didn’t love each other any more. I was also told that she just moved out to get his attention because he was working so hard.

    It would have been nice to find out the truth when I was around 12 or 13 when I could have handled it. I didn’t find out until last year that all the adults in the family knew when it happened that she had cheated on him and left him for her boss, whom she had been banging for a few months before pulling the trigger.

    Shit yes my uncle was working hard. He was supporting a wife and two kids under age 6, and not making a lot of money. His first wife was a cheating whore.

    He married again. His second marriage lasted 17 years. No one told me the truth about that one either. I was told they just “grew apart”. The truth? She was an entitled princess mental case. During their marriage she got pregnant and aborted without telling him. Then she had a tubal ligation, also without telling him. He discovered it much later only when reviewing their medical bills and trying to figure out why they couldn’t have kids. She was a spendthrift who damn near bankrupted my uncle. She was a prescription drug addict who nearly drove him sick with worry. He divorced her when he just could not take her shit anymore.

    The point is that families would do their children right by telling them the truth about their foibles, faults and fuckups, instead of papering over them, lying about them and having “family secrets”.

  • Ted D

    Susan – ” I believe one guy even said he did a ton of housework but it didn’t make his wife want sex. Really? You thought that donning her apron and mopping the kitchen floor was a turnon?”

    Ummm. Yes. I totally and fully believed that my wife’s attraction to me was based on how much I helped her, took care of her, and met her wishes.

    If you wonder why, see Deti’s post at 430. He and I seem to have had very similar upbringing, except there were VERY few divorces in my family early on to use as an example. Both of my aunts are now divorced, but both of them divorced when I was a mid to late teen. My own mother never married. The rest of my extended family was VERY traditional Catholic, so needless to say my particular branch of the family were considered the black sheep until well into my 20′s, when some of my second and third cousins started getting divorced and/or pregnant out of wedlock.

    “In the stories I’ve read, particularly at Athol’s, men say they were blindsided about divorce, but in the same breath they admit that they had been complacent for years.”
    I was taught that a man didn’t complain to his wife about their relationship. If there was something wrong, it was MY fault to start with.

    “They rarely have sex, but don’t voice any objection.”
    See above. I tried to “gently” suggest that I was unhappy with our sex life, and she then had “obligation” sex with me, which made me feel 200% worse.

    “Their wives nag them and shit test them and they respond with meekness.”
    I was led to believe I was supposed to do whatever to make her happy. If she nagged, I automatically assumed it was my fault.

    Their wives disrespect them in public and they don’t stand up for themselves.”
    Thankfully my ex NEVER disrespected me in public. I’m not sure what I’d have done. I had a very strong beta streak, but public disrespect is something I have never tolerated.

    “They work hard, but they don’t communicate.”
    I believed that men weren’t supposed to “communicate” the way women did. Men simply acted and reacted. Every attempt I made to communicate with my ex ended in a HUGE argument. Of course, look at the emotion I’ve stirred here in my posts. I am very good at communicating, I’m simply not good at sugar coating any of it. And it seems most of the world and certainly most Western women just don’t like the cold hard truth.

    Keep in mind, the only marriage I saw regularly to model my relationship after were my grandparents. I never saw my grandfather “communicate” with my grandmother. He told her what was up, and she listened. And right after such an episode, my mother made sure to tell me how bad a man he was for doing so. That he didn’t take my grandmother’s feelings into consideration, and that he was selfish for always demanding things be done his way. What really sucks is I spent my entire youth believing my grandfather was an ogre for it. Now I realize he was simply being a man, and I was deprived of the opportunity to learn from him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I’m sorry, those are terrible things to teach men. I fully understand the reality of it, as several other men here have said they share your experience. I don’t know what to say. For whatever reason, my brothers and I were not led to believe those things.

      However, the conversation usually leaps to “true female nature,” i.e. the Red Pill. When in reality, you would have been better served by learning about true male nature, and its natural complementarity to female nature. That job is mostly done by men.

  • deti

    “How can I know a man who does nothing? Who is he? How can I love him? Relationship is doing. It’s active.

    I’m utterly baffled by this claim. It makes no sense to me.”

    You’re missing the point. The way most men in the ‘sphere see it, most women want a man for what he does; and what a man does means his occupation and the things he gives her. His status, his profession. It means his ability to provide babies, money, security and status. In other words, it is his outward actions which result in direct benefits TO HER.

    We want to be wanted and liked and loved for WHO WE ARE: our personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, daily routines, the daily rhythms of the way we live our lives.

    I like to take road trips. I like to watch old movies. I have a dry, sarcastic, punny sense of humor. I like to get up early while everyone else is asleep so I can do things I like. I like to read books over and over again (I have a few favorites). I like to see American landmarks and vacation to them. I like to live a homebody type of life.

    I don’t like flying in airplanes. I don’t like to eat Brussels sprouts, or spinach. I don’t like to eat at those buffet type places. I don’t like going to riverboat casinos or any kind of place where gambling is. I don’t like clowns (Don’t know why. Just never liked them.) I don’t like anybody else’s kids.

    These are some of the things that make up who deti is. These are the things I want to be liked and loved for.

    I don’t want to be loved because I can provide a good living to a woman and her children.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      The way most men in the ‘sphere see it, most women want a man for what he does; and what a man does means his occupation and the things he gives her. His status, his profession. It means his ability to provide babies, money, security and status. In other words, it is his outward actions which result in direct benefits TO HER.

      Oh well, then, I’ll just say this is a tempest in a teapot.

      We know that women are attracted to status, and it should be higher than her own, as it predicts her access to resources needed to survive.

      That does not mean we love a man’s status with our hearts and souls. It just means he has won an audition. Status is often the first obstacle in getting through the gate. No woman ever fell in love with a man based on status alone. In fact, I think it’s fair to say that when beautiful women marry unattractive men of high status, we usually assume they are not in love. E.g: Donald Trump, Ron Perelman, John Henry.

      We want to be wanted and liked and loved for WHO WE ARE: our personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, daily routines, the daily rhythms of the way we live our lives.

      Of course you do, that’s what all human beings want. And those are the things a woman falls in love with, after you’ve passed muster on the traits women seek in life partners.

      I find the suggestion that women don’t love men for who they are completely ridiculous. Honestly, I made it more complicated than it was because I never suspected this line of thought.

      By the way, there’s an analogous female experience:

      The way most men in the ‘sphere see it, most men want a woman for what she looks like; and what a woman looks like means her face and her hair and her breasts and her legs and her hips. Her sexiness quotient. It means her ability to provide regular sex and status among fellow males. In other words, it is her outward appearance that results in direct benefits TO HIM.

      We want to be wanted and liked and loved for WHO WE ARE: our personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, daily routines, the daily rhythms of the way we live our lives.

      These are some of the things that make up who Susan is. These are the things I want to be liked and loved for.

      I don’t want to be loved because I have a vagina and am a decorative accessory on my husband’s arm.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    SW

    Really? You thought that donning her apron and mopping the kitchen floor was a turnon?

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/WaterCooler/story?id=124720&page=1

    http://goodmenproject.com/fathers-day/the-good-life-im-more-than-a-helper-even-though-i-agree-im-sexy/

    http://jezebel.com/325880/is-a-hot-guy-hotter-when-hes-doing-your-laundry

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/women-spend-3-hours-per-week-re-doing-chores_n_1371047.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=118287&page=1#.UFHwftCXRGw

    Men have been browbeat and badgered into doing more around the house performing chores to help the poor beleaguered women out. (and then chastising us for doing them wrong.. like wtf)

    We were also told that by freeing up time for the little ladies, they would be less stressed and have more time to unwind, destress. Couple that with the hope our helping out would be appreciated and with more time to ‘get in the mood’.

    And don’t forget how the trope is played out in the media, the hunk cutting the grass shirtless, the pool boy being ogled through his clothes. The man in the apron is satire, but we’ve been steadily been force fed shit about how a man who helps out is sexay.

    Lesson learned. Stick to sitting on the couch and yelling ‘fetch me my goddamn beer woman’. That’ll get the panties moist.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And don’t forget how the trope is played out in the media, the hunk cutting the grass shirtless, the pool boy being ogled through his clothes. The man in the apron is satire, but we’ve been steadily been force fed shit about how a man who helps out is sexay.

      Men doing men’s work is sexy. Men doing women’s work is not sexy. You may have been browbeaten into doing it, and in fact if your wife works you should be doing it, but honestly, did you really think scrubbing the toilet would get you laid?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Ted D 420

    You nailed everything i ever wanted to say wrt marriage. I had a 10 page long reply to you, but figured on dropping it.

    It won’t do any good here. Just know i agree with your summation 1000%

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I had a 10 page long reply to you, but figured on dropping it.

      It won’t do any good here

      Thanks for that. Perhaps you and Ted could discuss this via email?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I don’t understand how a human being’s essence – his soul, if you will – can be separated from what he chooses to do.”

    Really? So you agree with Plain Jane that what a man does for a living defines him?

    To me, what defines a man is what he believes first, and then what he does about/with it. I will respect a man with extreme intelligence even if he works in the mail room of my office. If he has great thought processes and insight, who gives a shit how me makes a living? To me, “what you do” is often simply a means to an end. I go to work because I need to feed my family, not because I feel IT is a noble cause.

    In my heart, I believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect, yet I can’t demonstrate that thought in all environments for any number of reasons. I have a very strong sense of morality, yet I can act immorally if it is required without much emotional drama. I believe in marriage, yet I will be telling my boys just how dangerous a prospect it is, and will advise them to put it off until they are ready to start having children of their own.

    If you judge me and my “soul” based on my actions, you are missing a lot of important information. As someone that doesn’t know me well, I expect that. But, from my wife I expect her to know no matter what I do, exactly how I feel and believe. I expect her to fully trust in my beliefs to do the right thing, even if it doesn’t appear that way. That can’t happen if she bases her opinion and love for me on what she sees alone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So you agree with Plain Jane that what a man does for a living defines him?

      Well, to be clear I was not thinking in terms of occupation when I wrote that comment. However, it is obvious that we can learn a lot about a person by their chosen profession. Certainly as they express how they feel about what they do, why they chose that field, etc. we will gather a great deal of data, and that information may well affect our level of interest in or attraction to someone, based on our own values and interests.

      That can’t happen if she bases her opinion and love for me on what she sees alone.

      I didn’t say that actions are the only way to know someone. There is also thought and emotion. However, I do not think it is possible to know someone without observing their actions. Certainly I would never advise a woman or man to marry without a prolonged period of observation of behavior.

      But now I’m confused. Are you talking about actions or occupation? These are not the same thing.

  • deti

    Ted D 438:

    +1 again. Yes. We want to be liked and loved and appreciated for who we are: What we believe in our minds and hearts and how that manifests itself in our lives. NOT What we do: Our professions, our jobs, our careers, our ability to make money or generate status.

    I don’t mean to cast aspersions on SW or anyone else, but to me this is a very, very simple concept–elemental, almost. I am NOT what I do for a living. I am NOT my utility or usefulness to the people I choose to have in my life. I am the sum total of my beliefs, personality, mind, will, emotions, likes and dislikes.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t mean to cast aspersions on SW or anyone else, but to me this is a very, very simple concept–elemental, almost. I am NOT what I do for a living. I am NOT my utility or usefulness to the people I choose to have in my life. I am the sum total of my beliefs, personality, mind, will, emotions, likes and dislikes.

      So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless? Then why all the bitterness about women going for the broke guitar player?

      Both men and women choose mates based on a variety of traits. If you want your ability to provide to be irrelevant, then I’m sorry for you. I certainly don’t think my appearance is irrelevant, and if I did, I’m not sure where I would file a complaint.

  • Ted D

    “We want to be wanted and liked and loved for WHO WE ARE: our personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, daily routines, the daily rhythms of the way we live our lives”

    This.

    I’d like to ask everyone here a question. Think of your best friend in the world. (male or female, as long as they are a genuine friend it doesn’t matter) Now, ask yourself: why do I like them?

    Do you have friends because you respect their job? Do you keep friends because they act according to your world view? Do they even agree with you all of the time?

    I call some people friend because I like and love them for WHO THEY ARE. They all do stupid/bad shit from time to time, but they are all human. I very much dislike some of what my friends have done, but that doesn’t change how I feel about them.

    I believe the thought is something along the lines of: hate the sin, not the sinner.

    I want my wife to love me for who I am, NOT what I do or what I can give her. What I do is much more about necessity than how I feel about something. I might feel it is wrong to steal, but I’d damn well be stealing if my family was starving. The thing is, if I stole knowing the punishment would be getting my hand chopped off, I’d still do it and wouldn’t complain about losing my hand if I got caught. It would be a price I was willing to pay. But, how would you judge my worthiness if all you knew was that I stole?

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Ted 438

    To me, what defines a man is what he believes first, and then what he does about/with it. I will respect a man with extreme intelligence even if he works in the mail room of my office.

    Long time ago i was giving dating advice to a girl, and she said “What if he doesn’t like me because i work as a cashier. I don’t make much.”

    Today i’d say that she was doing classic projection.

    Back then i told her “Relax.. if he does he’s an idiot. (my beta niceguyness kicked in) IF I WERE DATING YOU.. i wouldn’t care what you made, so long as you actually held a job, or were actively looking for work and not a welfare queen. What you make and what you do for a living don’t define you, it’s a means to an end for living. You could be a rich asshole or a poor happy girl. I’d rather have the latter.”

  • Plain Jane

    “I don’t mean to cast aspersions on SW or anyone else, but to me this is a very, very simple concept–elemental, almost. I am NOT what I do for a living. I am NOT my utility or usefulness to the people I choose to have in my life. I am the sum total of my beliefs, personality, mind, will, emotions, likes and dislikes.”

    I agree with this, women feel the same way, but what about looks? In a sexual relationship looks play a major role.

    Another thing that sphere men who claim rejection to appear to take into account is maybe they are getting rejected for their beliefs, personality, mind, will emotions, likes and dislikes. Its not always for some other “thug” (remember thugs are a minority of the population anyway). Sometimes its just a case of she’s just not that into you.

  • deti

    M3:

    I found out that doing more household chores only made Mrs. deti MORE pissed off.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Clarification needed: What someone chooses to *do* is not necessarily identical with what he does for a living.

    To take an extreme case, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, but this scarcely defined what he chose to do.

    At a less galactic level, someone who works in the mailroom and reads extensively, plays guitar in a band, is active in politics, and has several serious hobbies is choosing to DO differently from someone who works in the mailroom and spends all his spare time watching TV.

  • Plain Jane

    “Really? So you agree with Plain Jane that what a man does for a living defines him?”

    Hold on Ted, I never said that. We were discussing a very specific context and that was shock jock material, which is highly corrosive. I said IT was neutral. I’ve worked jobs that I did not identify with at all in order to make money but those jobs did not conflict with my ethics and values. If they had, I would not have worked them but looked for other jobs.

    “Yes. We want to be liked and loved and appreciated for who we are: What we believe in our minds and hearts and how that manifests itself in our lives. NOT What we do”

    And women say, “We want to be liked and loved and appreciated for who we are: What we believe in our minds and hearts and how that manifests itself in our lives. NOT WHAT WE LOOK LIKE!!!”

    Yet men, even here, constantly badger us with how important looks are.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    FWIW, I have heard many married guys express sentiments similar to Joe’s. They would never say this in front of their wives, of course; it is usually made in the context of trying to tell someone else to be very cautious about getting engaged. It comes out when you are sitting around a fire at a hunting camp or equivalent.

    Their philosophy could probably be best described as a melancholy “I’ve made peace with my fate and am trying to make the best of it, but let me offer you some warnings.” Most have no plans of cheating or leaving their wives; they consider their wives to be great people, etc.

    In terms of causal factors, it seems to be something very difficult to articulate; maybe you have to have been married to fully get it. One guy told me that he just felt that some primal, joyful life energy spark had been diminished over the years and that he now took unnaturally immense pleasure in his monthly sportfishing trips and in football season.

    My initial thought was that he was probably making a “grass is greener on the other side” type of mistake or simply looking around at the current SMP and realizing that he could do well in it if he was single (and resenting his marriage as a result), but he said that this was actually a very well-considered position, based on careful reflection of all sides.

    The scary part is that these would normally have been considered *successful* marriages from the outside. In a way, hearing confessionals like these is just as bad as seeing a man get raped by the divorce courts.

    I think I remember that a surprisingly high percentage of the multi-tasking alpha female moneymaker/wife/mother types in that “Superior Wife Syndrome” book were similarly inclined to question whether or not they had made the right decisions by getting married, but IIRC the women were questioning if they had married the right men, rather than questioning the institution of marriage itself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The scary part is that these would normally have been considered *successful* marriages from the outside. In a way, hearing confessionals like these is just as bad as seeing a man get raped by the divorce courts.

      If my husband felt as Joe Blow does, I feel it would be my right to know it firsthand. I certainly would resent his taking this sentiment to the interwebz. It sounds like he wants a divorce, and is worried it won’t be a good move financially. No concern whatsoever for “the fam.”

  • deti

    David Foster:

    “To take an extreme case, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, but this scarcely defined what he chose to do.

    “At a less galactic level, someone who works in the mailroom and reads extensively, plays guitar in a band, is active in politics, and has several serious hobbies is choosing to DO differently from someone who works in the mailroom and spends all his spare time watching TV.”

    Point taken, David, but the man who works in the mailroom and couch-potatoes it can be just as loved and lovable as the other, more “active” man.

    Perhaps the second man is more attractive than Couch Potato, but that does not mean Couch Potato has a character deficiency or is less deserving of being appreciated.

    This does not mean Couch Potato will ever find someone to appreciate him. It simply means that the way he chooses to live his life does not mean he must change the way he lives his life so that someone will appreciate him or so that he will be of some utility to someone else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That does not mean Couch Potato has a character deficiency or is less deserving of being appreciated.

      I disagree. I believe that Couch Potato has a character deficiency called laziness, and an intellectual deficiency called lack of curiosity.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    This will not sound unique to many men reading this. I told my wife i would love her no matter what, even if life took everything away from us and we ended up living out of a cardboard box downtown. She returned the sentiment without equivocation. How romantic.

    When the crash of 2008 took away both of our jobs, and i was unwilling to ‘man up’ and take a shit factory job or get a job with the same pay as prior because it was an employers market who had a surplus of prospects fighting for table scraps, she deemed me a loser unable to provide for her the ‘lifestyle’ she wanted. So much for the cardboard box sentiment.

    I am not a unique case. This is stated time and again. It’s why i believe Mike C and Deti when they speak of “women love men for what THEY DO not WHO THEY ARE.”

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I’m sorry if you don’t like Rollo (who does?) but HUS is not the kinder, gentler venue for hammering out these issues. If I bring an issue up, fine, have at it, but importing this crap to HUS is not OK.”

    I’m not trying to bring anything over. I’m simply commenting on the thread as it progresses. I’ll be honest, I haven’t gone back to read the comments in awhile because I can’t make reading there a habit without it bringing me down. I’ve dropped a few comments recently to see if the “mood” has changed, and for the most part my posts have gone ignored. That’s fine, I don’t take it personally. But I don’t find it “male supremacy” talk to simply discuss what women and men are or are not generally capable of.

    “Ted, did you never know any old married couples who couldn’t stand each other, or at least didn’t seem in love any more? Even at 5 I knew that my grandparents lived in a state of uneasy alliance. They didn’t divorce, but that doesn’t mean they were happy.”

    Of course I did. But I was never led to believe that “happiness” was the ultimate goal of marriage to be honest. And, I think this thought is at the root of the problems with marriage we have now. Getting married IS NOT supposed to bring lifelong happiness. It is supposed to provide you with a partner to make the best of what you get in life. Happiness is the responsibility of each person, NOT the marriage.

    “I’ve also known families where the dad cheated and the mom was long-suffering about it, i.e. stuck. I understood very well that infidelity was not a loving act, and repeated recreational adultery could not exist with love. So I guess I had my illusions tempered at a young age. Am I unusual?”

    To me, yes. I didn’t see any of this growing up. Most of my family was very traditional (in concept anyway) and they shielded my cousins and I from that kind of stuff. As Deti indicated, any of those relationship dynamics were completely hidden from us as children.

    “In the eyes of God, we are all required to love one another. However, you cannot make attachment a requirement. The level of deep attachment will depend directly on your behavior in the relationship. “

    Really? Because it seems to me when we actually enforced our wedding vows, we indeed DID make that attachment a requirement, or at least the appearance of said attachment. Were there unhappy couples? Yep. But they made their bed when they chose to marry, and to me that means making it work by whatever methods are necessary.

    “I can imagine certain actions that would cause me to stop loving my husband. Incest, for example. That is an act that would utterly destroy any respect or affection I had for him. And that is appropriate. If love were truly unconditional, human beings would have scant motivation to do the right thing.”

    And here we differ again. My wife can certainly do things to make me dislike her, and possibly even hate her. (although I still don’t hate my ex, so I’m not sure what it would take short of harming my children) But, I would still love HER to some extent.

    If she were to be convicted of murder, I would be hurt, disappointed, and angry, but I would still love her. If she did it in a premeditated and or horrible manner and got the death penalty, I would support the court’s decision and show up at her execution. I would be devastated and hurt beyond words, and would believe she deserved her fate. But, I would still love her. I don’t give love easily, but once I do, it remains until death, or until it is no longer wanted. I have never stopped loving anyone I’ve given love to, but after much time apart that love dwindles to nothing on its own. But, I have no idea how someone can simply STOP loving someone if they truly ever loved them at all.

    And to me, the “motivation” to do the right thing is simple: because it is the right thing to do. I shouldn’t need to be motivated to “do the right thing” because it is my task in life. I realize this isn’t realistic by today’s standards, and that is the problem. We have learned to expect something for “doing the right thing”, when it is the “doing” that is supposed to be the reward. Truly, our reward for “doing the right thing” isn’t supposed to come in this life, other than by chance or perhaps karma.

    I fell for this line of thinking in my first marriage. I believed that cleaning, cooking, helping with chores, etc. would make my wife love and respect me. I “did the right thing” for the reward of her love and affection, and I got exactly what I deserved for that belief. Is that the kind of motivation you are talking about?

    “1. She avoids sex.
    2. She is not interested in conversation.
    3. You find her crying or glum. (Elizabeth Gilbert cried all night in her bathroom for several nights in a row. Just saying – there were signs.)
    4. She is irritable or cross in general.
    5. She does not initiate spontaneous, non-sexual affection.
    6. She is argumentative, even in public.
    7. Increasingly, her interests are not shared.
    8. She prefers to be alone in the evenings after dinner.”

    Wow. Other than 3, 6(she never argued in public), and 8 my ex did all of these and I hate to tell you, I didn’t suspect it was a signal to ME to do a damn thing, because she never once explained to me WHY she was doing those things. I’m not a mind reader, and to be honest based on what I saw as a child and how I heard older men talk, most of the behavior above was EXPECTED from a wife, at least on occasion. I knew damn well something was wrong, but I wasn’t about to guess what, and she didn’t seem to be able to explain it, although she tried many times.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because it seems to me when we actually enforced our wedding vows, we indeed DID make that attachment a requirement, or at least the appearance of said attachment.

      Well those are two very different things. I’m talking about real emotional attachment – love. Not the outward appearance of attachment.

      And here we differ again. My wife can certainly do things to make me dislike her, and possibly even hate her. (although I still don’t hate my ex, so I’m not sure what it would take short of harming my children) But, I would still love HER to some extent.

      We differ indeed. It is too upsetting to even type out, but if my husband harmed my daughter, my love for him would die in an instant. If that’s a female thing, so be it. I wouldn’t want it any other way.

      I knew damn well something was wrong, but I wasn’t about to guess what, and she didn’t seem to be able to explain it, although she tried many times.

      I’m sorry, that’s really sad.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “When in reality, you would have been better served by learning about true male nature, and its natural complementarity to female nature. That job is mostly done by men.”

    I fully agree. But for the most part, women and feminism took that role away from men, either by brow beating husbands into submission, or through divorce and family courts. In my case, my mother chose badly and got pregnant to a guy that had no intentions of being my father. It was bad judgment on her part, but not malicious in any way. What happens to men in family court now can only be viewed as intentional and malicious. And by cutting men out of their children’s lives, you end up with guys exactly like me. I think women have been “talking smack” about their husbands since the dawn of time. But in the past those husbands were still around to tell their side of the story to their children (especially their sons). Now, all boys have to go on is what their mother tells them, and obviously many women don’t understand themselves, let alone understanding men.

  • J

    so yeah maybe we outliers have outliers husbands?

    I saw the smilie, but it seems to me that we outliers have normal, healthy relationships and that the alternantive is less healthy.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Deti:

    “I found out that doing more household chores only made Mrs. deti MORE pissed off.”

    That’s because you’re not doing the chores properly to her specs you big louse. The pillows go this way. The socks need to be folded this way. The table needs to be lined up this way. The door needs to be painted this way. All the little stupid decor items she’s populated your house with need to be dusted this way. All the clothes and shoes she’s purchased need to be stored in the closet this way. All of the towels need to be hung up this way.

    Stupid man. Don’t you know it’s only right when it’s done HER way?

    Interesting conversation was going on over at Herr-teest. Turns out a lot of guys who become kitchen bitches are OCD and they shack up with slob like women who contribute more to the mess than they can clean up, and then bitch about the men who pick up after them for not doing it right.

    Seem to be a trend.

    I can only speak to my own experience. Wife cooked 1 hour. I spent 3 hours scrubbing the kitchen down to spotless and washing dishes. Wife worked from ‘home’ and left papers and shit strewn about, I tidied up. Wife did laundry, i helped fold (incorrectly always). She cleaned the bathroom, i cleaned the toilet (too icky). I vacuumed and swiffered and OCD stored all of her thousands of shoes. And on and on.

    I thoroughly enjoy living in my minimalist 1 bedroom apartment now. Everything i own has it’s own place, closet space to spare, and cleaning my entire place takes 1 hour tops every 2 weeks. I can’t go back to having someone come in and invade my home and bring 5x as much shit as i own into it and relegate me to one room in the house, a mancave or garage and tell me i’m shit at doing chores when in reality i did twice as much in maintenance and upkeep, reno and repair than she ever did.

    I can’t ever consider going back. Not unless i found a true redpill woman who followed the cptn/1st officer model to a T.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @deti

    Point taken, David, but the man who works in the mailroom and couch-potatoes it can be just as loved and lovable as the other, more “active” man.

    And, importantly, for most women it seems the only attribute they care about knowing is “works in the mailroom” and thus reject him outright based on that.

    If being wanted for what I do was enough I could have wifed up one of those single mothers who certainly very much wanted my steady job holding trait.

    Women complain men only want them for their bodies but men are supposed to be okay with only being wanted for the money or prestige in this feminist era of girl power. At least 100 years ago women caring about that first made sense.

  • Mike C

    Susan,

    There is an absolute ton to respond to in these last 25-50 comments to you, Ted, and Deti, but I actually have to work today :). I’ve got a response to your first comment to me mostly written, but I want to let it sit a bit and edit it. In the meantime, I had to at least respond with this quickly:

    This is your comment from Vox Day:

    Vox is not one of your boy toys, I don’t think he’s going to buy HUS as an echo chamber with hundreds of comments of vigorous debate on each post.

    Now in just the last several comment I’ve read, I’ve read at least 2-4 comment towards me and Ted not to discuss and debate certain concepts such as this male-female difference in love. LOOK, SERIOUSLY, YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. It strikes me as highly disengenous to talk of “vigorous debate” and in the very next breath attempt to sequester off or eliminate certain concepts or parts of the discussion. You agreed with my comment about tension in discussion and putting on big girl pants. Now stick to that.I

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now in just the last several comment I’ve read, I’ve read at least 2-4 comment towards me and Ted not to discuss and debate certain concepts such as this male-female difference in love. LOOK, SERIOUSLY, YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

      Whoa, cowboy. Did I write a post on the male-female difference in love? Did I approve that topic for discussion on my blog?

      I allow a ton of debate here, but do I not even get to choose the topics now?

      You are importing Rollo’s Machiavellian pathology to my blog and I don’t have to accept that.

      Frankly, I’m astounded you would even make this argument. I’m shaking my head with my jaw hanging open.

  • deti

    “1. She avoids sex.
    2. She is not interested in conversation.
    3. You find her crying or glum. (Elizabeth Gilbert cried all night in her bathroom for several nights in a row. Just saying – there were signs.)
    4. She is irritable or cross in general.
    5. She does not initiate spontaneous, non-sexual affection.
    6. She is argumentative, even in public.
    7. Increasingly, her interests are not shared.
    8. She prefers to be alone in the evenings after dinner.”

    I used to hear about these things and saw them in my wife on occasion.

    I was told these were not a problem and wouldn’t cause divorce or marital problems.

    “1. She avoids sex.

    Blue pill response: Women are less sexual than men. It’s common for women not to want to sex their husbands nearly as much as husbands want it. No problem. (But she would want sex more if you were nice to her.)

    2. She is not interested in conversation.

    Blue pill response: Women are tired and stressed from taking care of YOUR house and YOUR kids and getting YOUR dinner on the table. Give her some time. She’ll get over it. She probably doesn’t want to talk to you because you’re not being nice to her. No problem.

    3. You find her crying or glum. (Elizabeth Gilbert cried all night in her bathroom for several nights in a row. Just saying – there were signs.)

    Blue pill response: Women cry. They are emotional. They’ll get over it. Besides, there’s nothing you can do to help her, because you’re an unfeeling man and you will never understand even a fraction of the depth of her emotions. You just can’t “feel” like a woman can. Be nice, and leave her alone so she can “feel” whatever it is she needs to feel. No problem.

    4. She is irritable or cross in general.

    Blue pill response: It’s PMS or job stress or fatigue. Give her space and leave her alone. And you need to be nicer to her. No problem.

    5. She does not initiate spontaneous, non-sexual affection.

    Blue pill response: Women don’t kiss or hug men because that’s always going to lead to sex and she doesn’t always want that. She’s just keeping her distance because she doesn’t want sex all the time, and besides, you’re probably not being nice enough. Just be nicer. No problem.

    6. She is argumentative, even in public.

    Blue pill response: It’s PMS or job stress. Be nice, and let it go. You need to fix whatever it is, but she’s not going to divorce you over the stupid shit she argues about with you in public. No problem.

    7. Increasingly, her interests are not shared.

    Blue pill response: She has to be her own person. She’s an individual with an identity apart from her marriage and her children. She needs time away from you and your children so she can just be herself. No problem.

    8. She prefers to be alone in the evenings after dinner.”

    Blue pill response: She is just decompressing after a long day. You’re overreacting. Give her her space. Be nice, and she’ll come around. No problem.

    That’s what I was told, over and over again.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      So the red pill message should be:

      1. Women may be less sexual than men, but a healthy marriage includes sex with enthusiastic female participation.

      2. Women are capable of conversation when they are tired. They are even capable of wanting to be tired together. If your wife gives you monosyllabic responses when you attempt to converse, she is being rude.

      3. Women do not want to be left alone when they’re sad. When husband’s ignore tears, we get the message that they don’t care about our happiness and don’t want us to rock the boat.

      4. Women don’t PMS all the time. We can and do get stressed out. When we need time alone, we may seek it, but an extended period of this behavior is a sign that something is wrong. We should communicate with you about this, but if we fail to do so, you might want to ask what’s up.

      5. Women sometimes do worry that affection at bedtime may be misinterpreted as initiating sex. However, this is rarely a concern when our husband returns from work, during dinner preparation, etc. A happy woman will offer many small gestures of affection and several “I love yous” each day.

      6. When a woman argues with you in public, she is shaming you and communicating that she is considering leaving the relationship. She is advertising her availability to onlookers and potential other mates. Under no circumstances should you ever tolerate this. It is best dealt with privately when you return home.

      7. A woman does need some interests of her own. We often enjoy crafts and contemporary fiction that our husbands may not share. A woman who needs more than an occasional spa visit or girls’ outing is creating separation from the family. This is a serious threat to the relationship.

      8. Happily married women decompress with their husbands, not separately from them.

      Why doesn’t this much resemble the Red Pill as often described?

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    We know that men are attracted to looks, and it should be better than her own, as it predicts her being nice to look at.

    That does not mean we love a woman’s looks with our hearts and souls. It just means she has won an audition. Looks is often the first obstacle in getting through the gate.

    When women are willing to accept the above instead of shaming men, starting fat acceptance movements, and claiming men who find ugly girls sexy for their Master’s Degree/job/environmental awareness/whatever are shallow then it’s a tempest in a teapot.

    Until then, it’s women demanding the right to be shallow while shaming men for the same. After all, as you’ve pointed out more than once on this thread women don’t need men for resources anymore so clearly the fact women judge men on their ability to provide them is just shallow greed.

    Just like men not wanting to fuck ugly whales is shallow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      After all, as you’ve pointed out more than once on this thread women don’t need men for resources anymore so clearly the fact women judge men on their ability to provide them is just shallow greed.

      Our wiring hasn’t changed in thousands of years. Still, most marriages today are assortative – with the parties sharing about the same level of status.

  • J

    @Obs

    Five will get you ten that there are twice as many mary pols as there are lori gottliebs. And this trend will continue, and for reasons you might not think.

    Could be; I have no stats on it. I do think that here are women willing to forego ego validation in exchange for the freedom of not having to make compromises. I also think that better genes (mostly med student at some sperm banks) are available at the bank than at the bar. I can understand going that route.

    Second, like i said before, ivf is expensive, unpleasant and has a failure rate thats quite high but we arent supposed to notice or discuss this fact.

    IVF is not the typical procedure unless the woman has infertility issues like blocked tubes. Normally, a woman would wait to ovulate, go to the doctor, and use the “turkey baster.” It’s non-surgical. Sometimes a narrow canula is inserted directly into the uterus, not just the vagina. That’s as unpleasant as having an IUD inserted.

    As for your point about nice white ladies adopting, youre spot on-and so is sasha baron cohen. His “bruno” discusses exactly what youre talking about when he goes to africa and adopts a black baby boy, then goes on a talk show and tells the black audience that his son is named oj! Lmao.

    I love Sasha! Bruno was sort of disappointing but that scene cracks me up no matter how many times I see it. I think the African adoption is a Hollywood thing. In my neck of the woods, it’s China, Eastern Europe and South America that are the major “exporters.”

    When I was having infertility issues, we looked at adoption as an option, it’s not as easy as one would think. American kids tend to have health issues; foreign kids are hard to get.

    They also prove again just how much a sham fatherhood really is-its important if and when women say it is. Which can and does change with the weather.

    I think it’s pretty important. Even as young men, my sons really need their dad.

  • deti

    @ HErb:

    “fat acceptance movements”

    We need to call this BS out for what it is.

    It is not a “fat acceptance movement”.

    It is a “fat WOMEN acceptance movement”.

    I don’t see a lot of women out there talking about accepting fat men, demanding that women find fat men attractive, or demanding that women marry fat men.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless? Then why all the bitterness about women going for the broke guitar player?

    Men aren’t complaining about the broke guitar player in The Atlantic or NYT bestsellers or The Wall Street Journal.

    Interestingly enough, the women who fuck them are complaining that they don’t provide utility to them and other men aren’t either. See I Don’t Care About Your Band: What I Learned from Indie Rockers, Trust Funders, Pornographers, Felons, Faux-Sensitive Hipsters, and Other Guys I’ve Dated (from the Amazon brief: “I Don’t Care About Your Band posits that lately the worst guys to date are the ones who seem sensitive.”, ie the men we’ve been demanding but now don’t want) or Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys which the author intended as a pro-male book. If that’s pro-male, I’ll take benign neglect instead (give the excerpt from it in the WSJ is what brought me to the ‘sphere and ultimately HUS).

    @deit

    “fat acceptance movements”

    We need to call this BS out for what it is.

    It is not a “fat acceptance movement”.

    It is a “fat WOMEN acceptance movement”.

    I don’t see a lot of women out there talking about accepting fat men, demanding that women find fat men attractive, or demanding that women marry fat men.

    Yep, plenty of women who shame men for not liking fat women tell men to lose weight and get in shape. My own sister has told me that while telling female friends much fatter and less in shape than me that they deserve to be loved as they are.

    All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

  • deti

    “So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless?”

    It would be nice, but I know it’s never going to happen.

    I just wish men and women would be honest about that.

    I had this discussion with Mrs. Deti recently. It went something like this:

    deti: “you just wanted me because I made a good living and had a good job and your dad liked me.” (Status, security, preselection)

    mrs. d: “well, you just wanted me for tits and ass” (looks, youth, fertility)

    I have to admit — we were both right. That’s what ATTRACTED us to each other.

    But it’s not her body I LOVE. I love HER. Her body’s not as tight as it was 18 years ago. I stay because I love HER, not because I love her body.

    I would hope she would love me if I could not or did not provide like I do now. But I don’t know. I really don’t.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      But it’s not her body I LOVE. I love HER. Her body’s not as tight as it was 18 years ago. I stay because I love HER, not because I love her body.

      I would hope she would love me if I could not or did not provide like I do now. But I don’t know. I really don’t.

      Have you said this to her?

  • deti

    “So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless? Then why all the bitterness about women going for the broke guitar player?”

    “If you want your ability to provide to be irrelevant, then I’m sorry for you.”

    Susan, be very careful here. You’re perilously close to proving true the proposition that men are loved — and loveable — solely and only for what they do, for their utility and usefulness to a woman.

    Not attractiveness. But lovability.

    That means you’re saying a man’s very worth as a human being is a function of his usefulness to a woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      You’re perilously close to proving true the proposition that men are loved — and loveable — solely and only for what they do, for their utility and usefulness to a woman.

      No. Did you see where I said that status is one obstacle in getting through the gate for attraction? That once a man clears those hurdles for attraction, we may fall in love with him? We do not fall in love with a man for his job or his status.

      Did you see where I gave examples of high status marriages that don’t appear to be founded on love?

      Your ability to provide is relevant to your ability to attract women.

      Just as our ability to appear fertile is relevant to our ability to attract men.

      I never said anything about women falling in love based on one thing, and in fact gave an example of women falling for guys who do nothing.

      It’s as if you took all my words and turned them into their opposite. How could my comments be so misconstrued? If I am not expressing myself clearly, please tell me how, because it’s very important that you do not conclude that I’m perilously close to saying something that is 180 degrees from my intended message.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @J

    They also prove again just how much a sham fatherhood really is-its important if and when women say it is. Which can and does change with the weather.

    I think it’s pretty important. Even as young men, my sons really need their dad.

    Popular culture and documentaries/news teach otherwise. Dads are meaningless and mom can do the job just as well.

    Hell, I can point you to “studies” that prove children are better off without a man in the house.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    If you want your ability to provide to be irrelevant, then I’m sorry for you. I certainly don’t think my appearance is irrelevant, and if I did, I’m not sure where I would file a complaint.

    http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Flirting-Questions/199300-guys-why-you-so-shallow.html

    http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/if-men-like-hot-women-where-does-that-leave-an-average-woman/

    I could go on.

    Men caring about looks = shallow = must be stopped

    Women caring about men’s wallets = deep and insightful = men need to man up.

    Gotcha.

    deti’s right, you’re verging on saying men’s value is their utility to women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herb

      Men caring about looks = shallow = must be stopped

      Women caring about men’s wallets = deep and insightful = men need to man up.

      Gotcha.

      deti’s right, you’re verging on saying men’s value is their utility to women.

      That is not an accurate reflection of my view. I understand that men care about looks, and remind women of this fact frequently. Please don’t ask me to defend the views of other women on other blogs.

      Men select for fertility cues, primarily.

      Women select for a number of traits, one of which is status.

  • Joe

    @Susan

    We differ indeed. It is too upsetting to even type out, but if my husband harmed my daughter, my love for him would die in an instant. If that’s a female thing, so be it. I wouldn’t want it any other way.

    Indeed.

    But is this really a difference between men and woman? Susan, I have something even more sad for you to think about. How do you expect your husband to react if you harmed his daughter?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Joe

      But is this really a difference between men and woman? Susan, I have something even more sad for you to think about. How do you expect your husband to react if you harmed his daughter?

      The same way! That’s what I’m saying! Truly unconditional love does not exist except from God, and from parents for their children.

  • deti

    “So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless? Then why all the bitterness about women going for the broke guitar player?”

    “If you want your ability to provide to be irrelevant, then I’m sorry for you.”

    To clarify, Susan: Are you saying that if a man loses his job or changes jobs in which he takes a large pay cut such that he can no longer support a woman to the same extent they had before, then the woman is justified in reducing her love for him or not loving him or breaking up with him, or leaving him?

    He might be less attractive, for sure. But is that justification for her changing her love for him? Is it justification for busting up a marriage?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      To clarify, Susan: Are you saying that if a man loses his job or changes jobs in which he takes a large pay cut such that he can no longer support a woman to the same extent they had before, then the woman is justified in reducing her love for him or not loving him or breaking up with him, or leaving him?

      He might be less attractive, for sure. But is that justification for her changing her love for him? Is it justification for busting up a marriage?

      Of course not! In fact, my husband and I decided together that he would leave his job for a lower paying one rather than endure the long days he was putting in.

      I have never suggested that a woman should violate her marriage vows and withdraw love during times of financial hardship. A very hypergamous woman might, and I won’t defend that.

      Again, status is a female attraction cue. A large loss of status can take a toll on a marriage, in large part because of its effect on the man. It is certainly not grounds for divorce or infidelity.

  • J

    I have heard that men take longer to get over a breakup than women do. I don’t know the reason, but it doesn’t surprise me that we’re wired differently in this area as well as others.

    Just how many times does a guy get booted out of the marital home and almost immediately find a new woman. I know one guy who moved in with the rental agent he met when looking for an apartment after being served. When I expressed my shock to DH, he shrugged and said, “She filed, he moved on. DH wasn’t at all surprised that there was no morning period. The wife OTOH is purposely avoiding new relationships “until she heals.”

    I showed him a few posts, and of course he’s been aware of some controversies I’ve been embroiled in. His position is that I am wasting my time with maladjusted fools. That sucks for me, because I get limited sympathy at home when I respond to them and live to regret it. I’m learning.

    LOL. You’re braver than me. I can’t quite woman up to watching the sad, slow shake of the head I’d get followed by, “Is this what you do with time since you lost your job?’ Jeez…”

    Our next door neighbors had a very tense dynamic, and he often put her down in public. They rarely shared a laugh or joined in conversation. She appeared to be always attempting to appease him and make peace, but he was dismissive and aloof. She knew the marriage was in serious trouble, but when she attempted to communicate with him he denied it and said she was just making things up. He actually came out and left her for another man, but that’s not the point.

    Minus the homosexual stuff, this happened to a friend of mine, the one with the narcissitic STBX. Despite her suggesting marriage counseling, he was shocked that she left and blames her for breaking up a “wonderful marriage.” He is completely oblivious to the effects of his daily browbeatings. They were recently ordered by the court into some therapy to help them come to a settlement agreement where he insulted her in front of the therapist. After he left, she said the the therapist, “You know I’m divorcing him because he’s emotioanlly abusive and completely oblivious to the consequences.” The therapist laughed and said, “No kidding.” Yet I’d bet if he commented in the ‘sphere, he’d say that he gave her a beautiful house and she wasn’t haaappyyy. He has an IQ of 150-something, and he didn’t see it coming.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Susan

    Our wiring hasn’t changed in thousands of years. Still, most marriages today are assortative – with the parties sharing about the same level of status.

    When women acknowledge my wiring hasn’t changed in thousands of years I’ll return the favor.

    When they use the culture to lambaste me daily on how shallow I am because of said wiring they can fuck off.

    I’m not telling women to see guys without a job as good as guys with one (although often when they see the later is better they never get beyond the ATM). I’m not telling women to date ugly or fat men. I’m not telling them to aim for a homeless guy as much as a doctor.

    I’m telling them to stop telling me ugly or fat girls should be just as sexy as models and if I don’t I’m shallow agree.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I notice that of the eight “signs” that you listed, none of them are direct. They are all, in one way or another, passive agressive. And all can, as deti points out, be explained away as nothing serious to worry about.

    Maybe this gets back to the differing ways men and women communicate but a man is likely to identify the problem and bring it up directly. No sex? He’ll just say it outright, as your husband did.

    Women, it seems, can grow dissatisfied with a man and change their behavior (negatively) but they tend not to go him directly and say “Here’s what you’re doing wrong that is making me unhappy.” All the eight things you listed, IMO, are rather cheap and low ploys, infinitely inferior to being unfront. Even if it’s true that, as you say, all those signs are or should be recognizable even to a dolt, they are still crummy ways to “communicate” and they put all the impetus on the man. She gets to pout and withdraw, he has to notice the signs, figure out why, and fix it. He has to be her therapist, in effect, even (especially!) when she won’t talk to him.

    Now, this points I fear to a deeper problem, which is that the reason many women don’t speak up in those circumstances is that they don’t really know what is going on in their own hearts (or down below). We men understand our sexual desire and attraction levers pretty thoroughly, because they are so straightforward and simple. So if we lose attraction to someone we used to love it’s either because she’s totally let herself go, has become a mega-bitch, or because we’ve decided to cheat with someone younger and hotter.

    When a woman loses attraction she is more likely not to understand the cause, hence not to be able to articulate it to him. She just feels a vague sense of dissatisfaction that she can’t pin down, which then gets expressed as you describe.

    The reason why it’s good to talk about this is so that everyone, men and women alike, understand what the dangers are. Many of us have said before that society has no problem understanding and talking about the dynamics of male deisre, but it has its head up its ass regarding female desire. Places like this are the only ones where any kind of real dicussion is taking place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Women, it seems, can grow dissatisfied with a man and change their behavior (negatively) but they tend not to go him directly and say “Here’s what you’re doing wrong that is making me unhappy.” All the eight things you listed, IMO, are rather cheap and low ploys, infinitely inferior to being unfront. Even if it’s true that, as you say, all those signs are or should be recognizable even to a dolt, they are still crummy ways to “communicate” and they put all the impetus on the man. She gets to pout and withdraw, he has to notice the signs, figure out why, and fix it. He has to be her therapist, in effect, even (especially!) when she won’t talk to him.

      I agree with this 100%. I am not defending women who do these things at all.

      I do think that women are more avoidant of confrontation. I’m a very direct person and even I have difficulty with this. I confess that often I’ll be stewing about something until my husband asks what’s wrong. I always tell him, but I’m not very proactive in identifying issues and bringing them forward. I guess if he was oblivious I would do it more, or we would communicate less well.

      The sexes definitely handle conflict differently. Deborah Tannen’s book You Just Don’t Understand does a fantastic job of explaining this. I recall one example. A man and woman were driving home one evening and were approaching one of their favorite casual restaurants. She turned to him and said, “Would you like to stop for a drink at PJ’s?” He said, “No, I’m not thirsty.” This is a perfect example of male – female miscommunication.

      When a woman loses attraction she is more likely not to understand the cause, hence not to be able to articulate it to him. She just feels a vague sense of dissatisfaction that she can’t pin down, which then gets expressed as you describe.

      This is also true. I know when I have had those feelings, I have been most aware of a feeling of being turned off, but I can’t always explain why. And of course, I don’t want to hurt my husband’s feelings. Before long, something that is mildly irritating (or supplicating) becomes truly repugnant. I am not sure how to advise women to do this better. I think they often pick a fight about something completely unrelated, which leads to even more confusion.

  • deti

    Susan 484:

    Well, with due respect, I thought you were communicating very clearly that you were talking about a man’s loveability, not about attraction.

    Go back up and reread your response at 465. We were talking about love, not attraction.

    deti: “I don’t mean to cast aspersions on SW or anyone else, but to me this is a very, very simple concept–elemental, almost. I am NOT what I do for a living. I am NOT my utility or usefulness to the people I choose to have in my life. I am the sum total of my beliefs, personality, mind, will, emotions, likes and dislikes.”

    Susan, you responded as follows:

    “So you want a woman to love you for who you are even if you are useless? Then why all the bitterness about women going for the broke guitar player?

    Both men and women choose mates based on a variety of traits. If you want your ability to provide to be irrelevant, then I’m sorry for you. I certainly don’t think my appearance is irrelevant, and if I did, I’m not sure where I would file a complaint.”

    Note again what you wrote. I’ll add caps for emphasis:

    “So you want a woman to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE USELESS?”

    Once I get past that initial attraction barrier, yes. I do want to be loved for who I am, even if I am useless to provide her with financial support or a 4 bedroom colonial McMansion.

    If mrs. deti, hot as fuck as she is, gets disfigured or loses a breast, you can be damn sure she will expect to be loved for who she is, even if she is objectively physically repulsive.

    You also said:

    “If YOU WANT YOUR ABILITY TO PROVIDE TO BE IRRELEVANT, then I’m sorry for you.”

    Once I get past the initial attraction barrier, yes. My ability to provide should be irrelevant. To LOVE, not to attraction.

    To say otherwise is to support the point that, yes, men are expected to bring AND SUSTAIN the attraction so that women will keep loving them. Men are expected to bring all those attributes that attracted her so as to justify women’s loving them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Once I get past that initial attraction barrier, yes. I do want to be loved for who I am, even if I am useless to provide her with financial support or a 4 bedroom colonial McMansion.

      This is a circular argument. If you are useless in her eyes, you won’t get past the initial attraction barrier. Once you’ve cleared the barrier (and the others) she may fall in love with you.

      I have never implied women should get McMansions. I’m simply stating a fact. Women find status in males attractive, and generally they prefer that status to be equal to or greater than their own. There’s no absolute status hurdle for female attraction.

      Personally, I would not be attracted to a man who described himself as a Couch Potato or was one. If I was married to a man who became a Couch Potato, I would probably try to make some suggestions like “Let’s go for a walk!” or “I’ve got cabin fever, how about doing something Saturday night?” If that didn’t work, I’d say, “I wish we spent more time together. I don’t like watching TV every night, would you be willing to just read together some night or just hang out and talk?”

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    @Starviolet

    “I dont think that we need to return to prefeminsm either, but as long as women are able to provide for themselves they won’t really need men on an individual level. Men have become more of a want for many women as we can nurture children.”

    Nonsense. Men created civilization. I usually quote P.j. O’Rourke: without men civilization would last until the next oil change. Then there is Camille Paglia: without men, women would still be living in grass huts.

    Men invented almost 100% of everything (and there are no female geniuses oppressed by a non-existent patriarchy), so this means women are essentially parasites on men. They are not self-supporting because those jobs wouldn’t exist without men. They can’t have children without men.

    Women should be immensely grateful to men and thank God they have the things men invented.

    Take away everything men invented and then imagine how your life would be. It would be, say, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

  • Just1X

    @Herb

    “I’m telling them to stop telling me ugly or fat girls should be just as sexy as models and if I don’t I’m shallow agree.”

    You have a wickedly witty way of saying things – I’m still laughing, but you do make a point.

    I’m not sure that there’s much difference in shallowness between wanting “Good T&A” vs “Good Provider”, but surely it’s clear that society shames one whilst validating the other. I don’t see Susan doing it, but the public line is clear; Men shallow, women wise. You make a mean point…

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    but honestly, did you really think scrubbing the toilet would get you laid?

    No.. but i certainly thought it would be appreciated.

    And i definitely didn’t think it would put me on the road to kitchen bitch emasculated territory.

    http://gruntledcenter.blogspot.ca/2009/06/do-women-actually-respect-domesticated.html

    Boy was i a f*cking sucker for thinking that doing my part to help out and destressify her life would give her more time to herself and facilitate and foster an environment where there would be greater intimacy that could lead to sex….

    http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/63667-men-domesticated-themselves-for-sex

    Silly me. Maybe next time instead of cleaning a toilet, i’ll just tell her she can go hire somebody to do it whilst fetching me a beer and making me a sammich. It’s obvious that doing things to for people you love and trying to make life easier for them isn’t worth the returns. Especially when i see women who love cooking and cleaning after their badboys who love being waited on.
    /snark

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @M3

      but honestly, did you really think scrubbing the toilet would get you laid?

      No.. but i certainly thought it would be appreciated.

      That is reasonable and fair.

      I have found that rewarding helpful behavior gets me more of it. :)

  • Ted D

    Susan – I did bring up occupation, but to me what I do for money and what I do for pleasure are still one in the same: something I choose to do for any number of reasons. Bear with me on this one, because I think it clearly shows the point I’m trying to make.

    Lets say we have two guys. One of them is a hit man, and by that I mean, he gets paid to kill people in cold blood.

    I don’t think anyone here would object to calling this man evil/bad. He kills people in cold blood for profit.

    Man number two is an Army sniper. He gets paid to kill people in cold blood. I don’t think many here would object to calling him good/noble because he kills for his country.

    In the end, both men ACT the exact same way: they kill in cold blood. Now, what if I told you that the hit man’s daughter is VERY sick and requires a shit ton of money in medical bills. He was unemployed and has no education, but found someone to pay him a LOT of money under the table to kill. Is he still evil?

    What if the sniper is actually a sociopath that joined the military for the express purpose of killing other humans? Is he still good?

    You say that you want to try and keep things amoral here, and I respect that. But the truth is, it’s damn hard to keep morality out of relationships, and certainly more so in marriages. Morality frames a marriage, defines it, and judges it. And from my explanation above, can you see how and why morality is SO important? I guy killing to save his daughter is still a killer, but WHAT HE DOES is not necessarily a reflection on WHAT HE BELIEVES. It may simply be that despite his belief that killing is wrong, he must do so in order to take care of his daughter. And in the case of our sniper, even though most people would see him as a hero, he is in fact an evil man to the core.

    *Note: I am in NO WAY saying military men are evil, and that hit men are good. I myself have said that *I* could probably have been a sniper in the military IF I truly believed the government was right and just. But, since I don’t trust the government, I’m certainly NOT going to kill for them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      You’re right about morality – it cannot be rigid. Better minds than mine have been wrestling with this concept for thousands of years.

      Once at the end of a Sopranos episode, Tony brought Carmella a fur coat and said he wanted to take her out to dinner. She was so pleased. I turned to my husband and said, “Tony Soprano is such a good husband and father.” I was joking, but that show was brilliant at getting the view to feel empathy for this cold blooded killer. We are all somewhat malleable in that respect.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The point is that families would do their children right by telling them the truth about their foibles, faults and fuckups, instead of papering over them, lying about them and having “family secrets”.

    I have to agree with this the level of secrecy over why people break up here is very upsetting and it doesn’t work. I remember going to a party and have someone looking at the family pics and ask for a missing wife and the host took the pic turned it backwards with an expression of rage and doing a fist to the pic, then just shaking her head and leaving…why doesn’t she just said what she did? Information is important for learning among humans that is how the first person that created a tool managed to spread the meme, but all this “I respect people’s privacy” leaves everyone with important information missing, IMO.

    I was taught that a man didn’t complain to his wife about their relationship. If there was something wrong, it was MY fault to start with.

    My husband used to panic everytime I told him “we need to talk” it was usually me having an idea and wanting a second opinion or some adjustment questions “So you like chicken more or beef?” I asked him why he was always so tense and he told me that in man speak “We need to talk” means “You did something bad and I’m going to yell at you over it” I was really shocked.

    To take an extreme case, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, but this scarcely defined what he chose to do.

    There are theories that the word for Joseph’s profession was builder and people assumed he was a carpenter but that he might had been a stonemason. Can you imagine Jesus was a though well built construction worker? I don’t think any movie has portrayed as a strong man. I remember one particular version that we used to joke on Catholic School it was “Jesus needs a sandwich” version. Poor guy was really skinny and yes we are going to hell for blasphemy.

    I saw the smilie, but it seems to me that we outliers have normal, healthy relationships and that the alternantive is less healthy.
    Me and hubby a healthy couple!? I need to sit now. I always describe our relationship like the poor man’s version of the Adams family Gomez and Morticia.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, I think what we’re saying is this.

    Suppose a man is productive and earning well when he attracts a woman. Then his industry is wiped out by innovation (buggy whips circa 1910) and he gets laid off and suddenly isn’t bringing it home. If we are loved merely or primarily for what we provide, then it’s over at that point. That sucks. A man would be a fool to accept marriage on those terms.

    You adressed this above, so I think it’s all good at this point.

    However, an “unsolvable problem” would be the following. Laid of man never is able to find work again. We know this happens with the long term unemployed, sometimes through no fault of the man. He’s willing to lower expectations, change industries, move, do whatever, but years go by and he can’t find a job.

    A loyal wife would stay regardless. But she would probably inevitably lose attraction for him and I don’t know what to do about that.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/how-a-new-jobless-era-will-transform-america/307919/

    Money quote from wife of long-term unemployed man: “I still love him, but he doesn’t seem as ‘big’ a man.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      A loyal wife would stay regardless. But she would probably inevitably lose attraction for him and I don’t know what to do about that.

      I’m with you. I would stay. No question. Or go out and become a barista at Starbucks. I can’t guarantee I would still find my husband sexy. I think it would depend on how he felt about himself to some degree. If he maintained a sense of his own worth, i.e. self-confident, I think it would be OK. But I’m not going to claim that a woman who finds her laid off and depressed husband in tears every day is going to want to sex him up. Then again, he’s unlikely to want sex then anyway.

      In short, I don’t know what to do about it either.

      I still think there’s an analogous female experience. A good friend of mine had a mastectomy, and the marriage became very strained. They went to couples counseling and in a burst of emotion her husband yelled, “I signed on for two tits!” Later he told her he would have sex, but only with the light off. He left her.

      I can actually understand why that man might find his attraction for his wife diminished. A good man would have stayed.

  • Just1X

    Regarding women not needing men, Roissy had a comment on a recent thread that makes several excellent points. It was sort of a supersized version of my comment to StarViolet about what happens when QE is done and budgets are balanced by force.

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/incentives-matter/#comments
    Mark Minter September 12, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    a couple of excerpts (read the original, there’s plenty of build up to this)

    In 2005 you regularly saw billboards with $200 round trip flights to Las Vegas. Today on Orbitz with a two week notice, that flight is $500. Las Vegas has multi-million dollar houses that have been for sale for years and even when the prices have been reduced by 20%, they still don’t move. The same can be said for Malibu, Miami Beach, lake houses in Austin, Texas, Los Angeles, and every other major market that I have studied for the past five years.

    So what is the future of tourism as oil production falls (he discusses this fall)? An industry employing females predominantly.

    The last major recession was a “Mancession” as construction, investment banking, and manufacturing jobs were lost that haven’t returned. The next time will be far more broad based. The next time will be more global. City and state governments are squeezed to the limit from the last recession, they have cut all they can cut. The federal government has borrowed all it can to rescue cities and states. Government workers, teachers, are going to lose jobs and that is where lots of wimminz work.

    So yeah, women are very adaptable as long as government is their daddy and their husband, and corporations have ways for them to get money and healthcare.

    But this time, when the shit hits the fan again, and this time, when women are tossed out on the street, and a slow inexorable economic decline begins to set in that will last until 2035,

    Let’s see who is more adaptable.

    There’s no triumphal stuff about it’ll be great for men. It will be crap for both. What he does say is don’t count on things continuing as they are now.

    Thought provoking, sobering stuff for everyone.

  • deti

    “This is a circular argument. If you are useless in her eyes, you won’t get past the initial attraction barrier. Once you’ve cleared the barrier (and the others) she may fall in love with you. ”

    Susan, respectfully, you’re dodging the point. It’s not a circular argument at all. You’re ignoring what you yourself said.

    Let me illustrate it. M3 was attractive to his ex wife, presumably his ability to support her was one of his attractive traits. He lost his job so that attractive trait was removed. His wife lost her attraction, and (THIS IS KEY) stopped loving M3, and they divorced.

    Here’s the point: if I lose my job, I should be just as loveable as I was before I lost my job. I’m useless to her in terms of financial support. But if I follow what you said, my uselessness to her for financial support means I am no longer loveable.

    Go back to my example of a disfigured or mastectomied Mrs. deti. She had her looks. She doesn’t now. She expects to be loved for WHO SHE IS, not what she looks like.

    Again, you said: ““So you want a woman to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE USELESS?”

    Try it this way: “So you want a man to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY REPULSIVE?”

    I have to tell you: On that second question, the answer from women will be a resounding and unequivocal “YES YES YES! We not only want to be loved even if we are ugly, we DEMAND it and EXPECT it as our right as wives!”

    So if that is the case, why then can’t a man say YES YES YES!! We not only want to be loved even if we are useless, we DEMAND it and EXPECT it as husbands!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, respectfully, you’re dodging the point.

      Right there. Not cool. Not respectful. I am not dodging the point. I am happy to assume I have communicated poorly if you aren’t getting me, but I will bow out of the debate if you question my integrity.

      I don’t know if that’s just the way guys debate, but it’s not my style.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Again, you said: ““So you want a woman to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE USELESS?”

      Try it this way: “So you want a man to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY REPULSIVE?”

      Weird, we cross posted re a mastectomy.

      That is not a valid comparison. If you are useless because you are lazy you lack character, and that should make you less lovable. It would also have made you less attractive to start.

      If you are physically repulsive because you have cancer, you are not less lovable, though you may be less attractive. I know that I would feel less attractive after a mastectomy. Everyone would, and I would know my husband thought so too.

      I have to tell you: On that second question, the answer from women will be a resounding and unequivocal “YES YES YES! We not only want to be loved even if we are ugly, we DEMAND it and EXPECT it as our right as wives!”

      So if that is the case, why then can’t a man say YES YES YES!! We not only want to be loved even if we are useless, we DEMAND it and EXPECT it as husbands!”

      Answer from what women? Are they here? If not then why are you addressing them here? I have no desire to defend “women.” Women are not hardwired to make those demands, that is entitlement and is a character flaw.

      A person does not become less lovable over events they have no control over. That has nothing to do with their actions.

      A person may become less lovable for undertaking actions that are deemed problematic by his mate. In this case, I think becoming a sloth qualifies.

  • Escoffier

    Most commidity analysts expect hydrocarbon production to rise sharply in the near and medium term, not fall.

  • Ted D

    Deti – “To say otherwise is to support the point that, yes, men are expected to bring AND SUSTAIN the attraction so that women will keep loving them. Men are expected to bring all those attributes that attracted her so as to justify women’s loving them.”

    Man, you are hitting them out of the park today! Yes, I did in fact expect my wife to love me regardless of my income AFTER she said “I do”. No one EVER told me there were conditions on it.

    M3 – “Boy was i a f*cking sucker for thinking that doing my part to help out and destressify her life would give her more time to herself and facilitate and foster an environment where there would be greater intimacy that could lead to sex….”

    Me and you both, brother. I actually believed if I did more housework she would feel better about stuff being done and THAT would lead her to want sex with me.

    “Especially when i see women who love cooking and cleaning after their badboys who love being waited on.”

    +1

    Susan – “This is a circular argument. If you are useless in her eyes, you won’t get past the initial attraction barrier. Once you’ve cleared the barrier (and the others) she may fall in love with you.”

    Wait a minute! It is NOT a circular argument IF she already married him. Once married, there is no need to get past some “initial barrier”, unless what you are saying is that a man must constantly and forever keep qualifying for her love, which is EXACTLY what I am trying to say. The idea that a man must continue to qualify for his wife’s love is NOT a traditional view of marriage in any form I know of. It is entirely a construct of feminist influenced Western society.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Once married, there is no need to get past some “initial barrier”

      Sorry if I created that misunderstanding, I agree with this. As I said, it really depends on the agency of the person in becoming useless. If a man is a Couch Potato because he is ill, that’s very different than refusing to work.

      We’re also not defining uselessness the same way. Deti is calling a man useless in a woman’s eyes if she doesn’t provide a huge, new home, then he’s describing uselessness as sitting on the couch all day.

      Industriousness and ambition are key female attraction triggers. It is what it is. If you lose those after marriage, you will probably become less attractive to your wife.

      I value my husband’s intelligence and work ethic highly. If he suddenly announced he was done, and would be spending all of his time on the couch from now on, I would be very concerned about our relationship.

      If the people we love change in a way that we can no longer respect them, I don’t know how love could survive.

      I would not expect to retain my husband’s love if I become a woman of poor character.

  • J

    Suppose a man is productive and earning well when he attracts a woman. Then his industry is wiped out by innovation (buggy whips circa 1910) and he gets laid off and suddenly isn’t bringing it home. If we are loved merely or primarily for what we provide, then it’s over at that point. That sucks. A man would be a fool to accept marriage on those terms.

    Very true.

    A loyal wife would stay regardless. But she would probably inevitably lose attraction for him and I don’t know what to do about that.

    Maybe, maybe not. When I was a kid, my dad had cancer, which he survived. However, he was not able to return to his work as a hod carrier/cement worker, which was a high paying job for a guy like my dad. I can’t say my mom lost attraction for him, even though she was our sole support for two and half years and always worked after that.

    My DH was had a lot of career changes in the course of our marriage. It’s scary when the only paycheck is the guys and that can make things a little tense, but it’s never really affected my love or desire for him. In fact, one thing I really find hot about DH is his ability to land catlike on his feet. And where I used to be more frightened by temporary reversals of fortunes, I now find myself saying, “Oh well, I know we’ll figure something out.”

  • Höllenhund

    You’re right about morality – it cannot be rigid

    This is completely off-topic, but – no. In fact, this idea is rather dangerous. Morality HAS to be rigid, because even a less complex society is unable to function without clearly defined rules. A morality that isn’t rigid, a morality that is “contextual” – to borrow a phrase from Brendan, who was using it to describe the kind of morality women subscribe to – is, in fact, nothing but immorality. The Ten Commandments are clearly defined for a reason. One commandment is “thou shalt not commit adultery”. It’s not “thou shalt not commit adultery unless X, Y or Z”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Morality HAS to be rigid, because even a less complex society is unable to function without clearly defined rules.

      Well, I don’t think we should chop off a starving child’s hand for stealing a loaf of bread. Context is relevant.

      Brendan, who was using it to describe the kind of morality women subscribe to -

      I’ve written posts about male morality being more “flexible” – something that is well understood by psychologists and ethicists.

  • Just1X

    @Escoffier, if you read his whole comment, he claims a basis for credibility…whether you accept it is up to you.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Ana

    There are theories that the word for Joseph’s profession was builder and people assumed he was a carpenter but that he might had been a stonemason.

    As anyone who has read The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal we know Joseph was a carpenter but Jesus was apprenticed to Biff’s father who was a stone mason. This lead to many things, chief among them involving the installation of a Roman statue in a villa that was anatomically correct but uncircumcised.

    For those wondering about Biff’s name, his full name was Levi bar Alphaeus and Biff was just a nickname.

  • Höllenhund

    Right there. Not cool. Not respectful. I am not dodging the point. I am happy to assume I have communicated poorly if you aren’t getting me, but I will bow out of the debate if you question my integrity.

    I don’t know if that’s just the way guys debate, but it’s not my style.

    Maybe you dodged the point, maybe you just “communicated poorly”. But with this comment, you definitely dodged the point – because the discussion is getting too uncomfortable for women to handle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But with this comment, you definitely dodged the point — because the discussion is getting too uncomfortable for women to handle.

      Yup, don’t see a lot of girls here at the moment. I’m hanging in though, and do not feel the least bit uncomfortable.

  • http://peopletobe.blogspot.com Herb

    @Ana

    I always describe our relationship like the poor man’s version of the Adams family Gomez and Morticia.

    You say that like it’s a bad thing.

    Every time I see the first movie I want to get back into the SCA and take up period fencing. I have held moon bathing picnics as well.

  • J

    Tony brought Carmella a fur coat and said he wanted to take her out to dinner. She was so pleased. I turned to my husband and said, “Tony Soprano is such a good husband and father.” I was joking, but that show was brilliant at getting the view to feel empathy for this cold blooded killer.

    LOL. That is did. The show also did some great things with the evolution of Carmella’s feelings about Tony–her complaints about his cheating and murderousness, her attempts to rationalize his sins as no worse than those of any other powerful man, her ultimate acceptance of her susceptibility to the “bad boy” tingles, and her love of how Tony’s status made her life easier. You knew that any scene that took place in a confessional or a shrink’s office was going to be a winner. Over the course of the series, she found peace with her own shallowness and hypocrisy. It was very realistic.

  • deti

    Here’s how our current society looks at this:

    Husband loses job or can’t provide, you move from your McMansion to a 2 BR walkup.

    Wife, you have the option to stay, if you want. Or you can divorce his broke ass and move on with your fabulous life.

    Wife gets disfigured in a fire. Or she loses her breast to cancer. She no longer looks as good as she used to.

    Husband, you MUST stay with her or you are a low down dirty dog asshole scumbag. How dare you want to still have sex with the hot thing you married! Don’t you know you have to LOVE her NO MATTER WHAT!? You’re an asshole for even THINKING to yourself that she’s not as pretty as she used to be (even if she objectively isn’t). So shut up and keep your thoughts to yourself, and get back to loving her FOR WHO SHE IS INSIDE.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Why are you venting about what society currently looks like?

      AARRGGHGHGGHGHHG WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING ROLLO’S BLOG POST HERE???????

      PLEASE, TAKE IT TO ROLLO, I’M SURE HE’D LOVE THE TRAFFIC!

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I still think there’s an analogous female experience. A good friend of mine had a mastectomy, and the marriage became very strained. They went to couples counseling and in a burst of emotion her husband yelled, “I signed on for two tits!” Later he told her he would have sex, but only with the light off. He left her.
    I can actually understand why that man might find his attraction for his wife diminished. A good man would have stayed.”

    We seem to be a society largely made up of less than “good” people.

    Hollenhund – “This is completely off-topic, but – no. In fact, this idea is rather dangerous. Morality HAS to be rigid, because even a less complex society is unable to function without clearly defined rules. “

    I didn’t notice the tone of Susan’s reply, but I agree with you and didn’t intend to make it appear that morality should be flexible. What I was attempting to show is that the exact same action “can” be moral or immoral based on other factors. But in the end, what someone DOES is not always in line with what they BELIEVE. It brings to mind something about judging a book by its cover… Not saying there is anything wrong with it in general, but I would hope more extensive criteria for making judgments are used within a marriage.

  • deti

    @ SUsan:

    “Susan, respectfully, you’re dodging the point.

    Right there. Not cool. Not respectful. I am not dodging the point. I am happy to assume I have communicated poorly if you aren’t getting me, but I will bow out of the debate if you question my integrity.”

    All right then. “You’re dodging the point” is withdrawn.

    Susan, respectfully, what you said did not address my point.

  • Höllenhund

    I signed on for two tits!

    What kind of idiot signs up for Marriage 2.0 because of two tits?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “If you are physically repulsive because you have cancer, you are not less lovable, though you may be less attractive. :

    Is this simply a matter that for some people “attraction” and “love” are deeply connected? If so, is it more so women than men? The other way around?

    Or, is it simply that Western society “favors” women of that cohort more than men?

    I honestly don’t know the answer, but IME in the last two decades it seems to be more women. In previous years I might agree it was men. If that is true, then the bottom line is there are MANY shallow people in the world, and we keep enabling them with stupid laws and lackadaisical application of morality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is this simply a matter that for some people “attraction” and “love” are deeply connected?

      The three brain mating systems are Lust, Limerence (falling in love) and Attachment.

      We can feel all three for the same person for a lifetime, feel one each for three different people, etc. The three systems operate independently. (This is Helen Fisher’s work.)

      I know that my husband’s Attachment to me is secure, but I also know that his Lust for me would be affected by a radical change in my appearance.

      People can feel deeply attached to their spouses while no longer feeling Lust or Limerence. This is equally true for both sexes.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Deti 516

    Taking your post and amending it to how Susan wants it to be contextualized properly.

    Here’s how our current society looks at this:

    Husband loses job or can’t provide, you move from your McMansion to a 2 BR walkup.

    Wife, you have the option to stay, if you want. Or you can divorce his broke ass and move on with your fabulous life.

    Wife doesn’t bother dressing up in heels and makeup everyday, only wears scrubs, slacks, crocs and yoga pants for comfort only. She has aged. She no longer looks as good as she used to.

    Husband, you MUST stay with her or you are a low down dirty dog asshole scumbag. How dare you OPRESS HER and inconvenience her life by having to take time out of her busy day to look attractive for you and wear those dreadful heels. How dare you want to still have sex with the hot thing you married! Don’t you know you have to LOVE her NO MATTER WHAT!? You’re an asshole for even THINKING to yourself that she’s not as pretty as she used to be (even if she objectively isn’t). So shut up and keep your thoughts to yourself, and get back to loving her FOR WHO SHE IS INSIDE.

  • deti

    And by the way, it is the way men debate. We’re direct and we don’t mince words. If someone is dodging or being disingenuous or creating strawmen or using other fallacies, I call them out on it — male or female.

    Saying someone is dodging or being evasive is not calling someone’s integrity into question. It’s calling them out on using a debate tactic that doesn’t address the point being made.

  • Escoffier

    Just1X, I don’t know what that commenter is basing that on. The huge hydrocarbon discoveries and the improved technology to extract them count as one of THE biggest economic/business stories of our time. The reporting is everywhere. That he doesn’t even feel the need to address it, to acknowledge that it’s out there, is a major red flag to me.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Yup, don’t see a lot of girls here at the moment. I’m hanging in though, and do not feel the least bit uncomfortable.”

    And this is partly why I just can’t “quit” you. Unlike most women, you not only stick in there when the discussion gets tough, you often double down and push harder. I may not agree with you, but I always respect you for the effort. And honestly, when it comes to stuff like this, we will all never agree. But, somewhere between my utter nonsense and yours, there is truth and reality. Which to me is the point of the entire exercise.

  • deti

    We’re not discussing Rollo’s post here.

    I was going back to M3′s example of his divorce after his job loss and then following up on the wife with mastectomy.

    M3′s ex shouldn’t have divorced him.

    Your friend’s husband shouldn’t have divorced her.

    M3 wanted his wife to love him for himself.

    Your friend wanted her husband (who signed up for two tits) to love her for herself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Mike C left a comment yesterday describing the comment thread at Rollo’s on a woman’s incapacity to love unconditionally. (Men have this capacity.) Ted picked it up again today.

      This entire conversation should be cut and pasted over to Rollo’s blog.

  • deti

    Susan 513:

    Again, you said: ““So you want a woman to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE USELESS?”

    Try it this way: “So you want a man to LOVE you for who you are EVEN IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY REPULSIVE?”

    Weird, we cross posted re a mastectomy.

    That is not a valid comparison. If you are useless because you are lazy you lack character, and that should make you less lovable. It would also have made you less attractive to start.

    If you are physically repulsive because you have cancer, you are not less lovable, though you may be less attractive. I know that I would feel less attractive after a mastectomy. Everyone would, and I would know my husband thought so too.”

    Wrong. It is a perfectly valid comparison. Man loses job through no fault of his own; she is not as attracted to him as before; wife leaves him.

    Wife gets disfigured through no fault of his own; he is not as attracted to her as before; husband leaves her.

    I don’t understand why you don’t see that.

    Change it up a little.

    Husband decides he doesn’t want to break his ass making $500K as a plastic surgeon anymore. The hours and the stress are killing him. He wants to change careers and work as a minister, earning $50K. She agrees to it. After trying it out, she decides she doesn’t like the lifestyle change and demands he return to nosejobs and boobjobs. He says no. She divorces him. Is he a sloth or lazy? Does this justify divorce?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Man loses job through no fault of his own; she is not as attracted to him as before; wife leaves him.

      Well, which is it? The Couch Potato or the innocent victim of a layoff? Choice has everything to do with this.

      I don’t think most wives pack a bag when a man loses his job. In fact, there are many households in the U.S. where this is currently the case.

      Husband decides he doesn’t want to break his ass making $500K as a plastic surgeon anymore. The hours and the stress are killing him. He wants to change careers and work as a minister, earning $50K. She agrees to it. After trying it out, she decides she doesn’t like the lifestyle change and demands he return to nosejobs and boobjobs. He says no. She divorces him. Is he a sloth or lazy? Does this justify divorce?

      This is clear. She agreed to it. Divorce is frivolous. He is neither slothful nor lazy if he is doing the full job of a minister.

      Again, my objection was to the character flaw inherent in a man’s deciding to live his life on a couch.

      Why are you moving the goalposts?

      This is one of those tortured debates when we’re going to realize we agreed all along. I have no quarrel with anything you’re saying here, unless you claim that women love men for what they do rather than who they are. In which case, I still disagree. Or, to the extent this is true, there is a directly analagous situation where men love women for what they look like rather than who they are.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Mike C left a comment yesterday describing the comment thread at Rollo’s on a woman’s incapacity to love unconditionally. (Men have this capacity.) Ted picked it up again today.

    This entire conversation should be cut and pasted over to Rollo’s blog.”

    This post is about women needing men, right? Well, what we are discussing is why men don’t FEEL that way. I for one don’t feel like “women” need “men” at all, and I honestly believe that some segment of women would be more than happy if “men” simply disappeared tomorrow. I also feel like a lot of women may not feel that way themselves, but they do very little to make “men” feel that difference. One of the ways “men” feel like women don’t want us is this conversation: women don’t always love men the way “men” expect to be loved.

    If women NEED men, they should start figuring out how to make “men” FEEL needed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      If women NEED men, they should start figuring out how to make “men” FEEL needed.

      Do you see that this is why I wrote the post? I’m afraid this is all too common a pattern here. I write a post encouraging women to toss away feminist ideology and accept their natures. Men vociferously criticize female nature.

      I write a post saying women are attracted to bad boys. Men vociferously insist that women are attracted to bad boys.

      Meanwhile, the lessons that women need to hear according to Vox – what are those? What do you hope to communicate to 21 year old women that I failed to address in my post? How are you encouraging them to understand, learn and embrace their femininity? How is this constructive rather than destructive?

      I’m not interested in apportioning blame, certainly not to the young women who haven’t even had the opportunity to do the things you describe.

      I think your message would go a lot further if you were able to share your story of your ex in a way that illustrated how complicated marital communication can be.

      I thought Escoffier did an especially nice job of maintaining a civil tone in this thread and as I read his comments, I thought they would resonate for young women reading here.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    SW 520

    I agree with everything you said in your comment at 520 above.

    In my case i feel i was slighted because i was not afforded what i afforded my ex 3 times, a brief layover on unemployment to pursue options. I was not allowed time to avoid getting the first dead end, dangerous job that came along to sustain our lifestyle. And the final job i took did not afford us to keep that lifestyle. Coupled with my attempts to make her life better by kitchen bitching myself, and all other beta supplication, she simply stopped loving me. Like a light switch.

    When asked how she could so simply walk away from me, the man who married her, made a home with her, and treated her like gold… but had such a difficult time walking away from the previous guy before me, she simply stated “but i loved him”, implying that there was never real love for me.

    5 minutes of Alpha certainly rang true when i threw my wedding ring onto the coffee table after hearing that.

    The sad reality is, for a lot of women, even a minor drop in power, provisioning, status, no matter how temporary, is enough for ‘love’ to cease and look for greener pastures. Only they wont directly tell you they’ve already checked out, they’ve already justified it in their heads and are biding their time.

    Chris Rock jokes about this, and usually a comedian tells truth in the only way people will accept it. Through humor.

    http://www.theseriouscomedysite.com/showreview.php?r_id=1712

    “Granted the latter is a staple of stand-up comedy but Rock makes it funny and original, especially when he explains how women can’t go back in lifestyle.”

  • J

    @Obs

    I’ll vouch for you that what you claim about your participation/POV in the ‘sphere is true. I think you’ve come to know me well enough to appreciate that I believe in perosnal responsibility as much as you do. I can even sympathuse with men who have been given a raw deal. What galls me is the over the top nonsense like repealing women’s suffrage, the cherry picking through the news for the worst of female behavior as calling it typical while ignoring similar news about men, the overapplication of one’s bad experiences to rest of the world, the overwhelming negativity and schadenfreude. It all makes any rational calls for change easy to ignore.

    I could give many examples, but let’s deal with Mentu’s vasectomy. My intial reaction is who cares; his body, his decision. Not my business. However, the celebration of it as some sort of victory for men’s rights would be amusing if it weren’t so sad. I serioous doubt that the feministic movement cares much about Mentu’s nuts…srsly. However, permanently altering one’s fertility is a huge step. I cringe when women I know get their tubes tied because they’re “done.” Surgeons are reluctant to do it, not because of political reasons, but because people come back and sue when they realize that permanent means permanent. I hope to God that Mentu is never sorry, but a comment from one of his cheerleaders on the thread congratulating Hope makes me wonder if that commenter’s own misgivings didn’t influence that post.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Wow, that’s a rather dark view of human nature that I can’t say I share.”

    Your right, ideal was a poor word choice. Morality can only exist under a certain set of conditions. These conditions made be broad, narrow or non-existent depending on the person in question. I.e few people are always immoral, some are almost always imoral, some are almost always moral and few are always moral.

    “Second, it sounds as if you are really discussing female morality rather than morality. Do husbands ever dump their wives when their needs are not met? Do they cheat on them when their needs are not met?”

    Arargynasdh. I said that post was somewhat quick. In a previous post I actually discussed this point exactly. Dudes are just as likely to be immoral as ladies. I don’t date dudes however so how often and how they are immoral are of less (not no) concern to me. Of course when I’m a father with a daughter I intend to buy a shotgun and learn how to clean it very slowly so I look like I kill people. Best way to get rid of assholes. (funny store, actually happened on my first date ever.)

    However, let me state it clearly. I get that men can be assholes. I would never say this is not true.

    Okay apps are served time for the main course.

    “First, I’m not clear on how you are using the starving metaphor here. What are you withholding?”

    “Lokland, a woman’s unhappiness is never out of the blue. It just isn’t.”

    If I started starving myself I wouldn’t die tommorow. My metaphor was representative not of what was specifically lacking but the time delay between the start of lack and consequences.

    As for what I’m withholding. In most mens cases it seems to be a lack of dominant (occasionally beta) actions.

    So over a long period of time the women begins to resent him for his lack of these qualities (whichever he happens to lack). And then the divorce/infidelity occurs. (I would never claim wife goes from happy to hate your ass overnight. Unless of course she was nuts. That probably happens occasionally.)

    So I fully understand its not out of the blue.

    There are two things I think your wrong on though.

    1. You claim the red flags are there from the outset (and in some subset of cases they likely are). I disagree sometimes the redflags were not present beforehand and only came out after hubby showed a serious lacking.

    2. The out of the blue thing. I think a lot of men don’t know how to read women well. Their needs are foreign to us. So that is how the blindside occurs. Man thinks he is doing good job, wife does not agree.

    Thats what I’m worried about. What if I go along thinking everything is good when she thinks I need a neural scan?

    Now as arrogant as I am in regards to intelligence I doubt that I’m to smart to get divorced. Its probably happened to someone far more insightful than myself. If they got blindsided how in the hell am I supposed to catch it other than absolute paranoid vigilance?

    Which leads to why I need to take a siesta occasionally. Being “normal” blue pill think makes me much happier in my relationship however it increases the odds that relationship ends. Red pill think makes it less likely to end but miserable.

    Balance. Find your inner zen young grasshopper type thing.

    I do that by coming and going.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Thats what I’m worried about. What if I go along thinking everything is good when she thinks I need a neural scan?

      We all take the temperature of our relationships without the need to be vigilant every minute. Talk to her. Communicate regularly. Make sure you are approachable. If something feels off, ask her about it. You want to get to feel very comfortable with what normal feels like. You’re a newlywed, things are good. This is what you want to maintain. If it starts to slip, you’ll know, but stop worrying and don’t assume the worst. And have a little faith in your wife’s character. Sheesh, from where I stand she’s a saint (ahem).

      Balance. Find your inner zen young grasshopper type thing.

      I do that by coming and going.

      Fair enough.

  • Ted D

    J – “What galls me is the over the top nonsense like repealing women’s suffrage, the cherry picking through the news for the worst of female behavior as calling it typical while ignoring similar news about men, the overapplication of one’s bad experiences to rest of the world, the overwhelming negativity and schadenfreude. It all makes any rational calls for change easy to ignore.”

    I’m fully sure you are more than intelligent enough to realize that bad news sells more than good news. I agree with you whole heartedly about the negative vibe in the ‘sphere, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong.

    “I could give many examples, but let’s deal with Mentu’s vasectomy. My intial reaction is who cares; his body, his decision. Not my business. However, the celebration of it as some sort of victory for men’s rights would be amusing if it weren’t so sad.”

    I agree with this as well. I commented on that thread, but only because I am genuinely curious about how he feels after the fact, because I’m thinking of doing the same. My wife can’t use hormonal BC, and I’m getting pretty damn tired of having to use “party hats” two weeks out of the month. I think it is a sad state that many men consider it a triumph of manliness that when a guy gets fixed. But, it does demonstrate just how bad it is for some men out there. And again, what worries me even more is it is generally the more intelligent men going this route. You think the thugs in the ‘hood are worried about getting some women pregnant? Nope. But Mentu, who appears to me to be an upstanding citizen holding down a job and living a decent life, determined that the risk (yes RISK) of having a child is TOO GREAT for him to leave it as an option. I’m not even sure what to make of this other than to feel sorrow, not for him, but for all of us.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “Which leads to why I need to take a siesta occasionally. Being “normal” blue pill think makes me much happier in my relationship however it increases the odds that relationship ends. Red pill think makes it less likely to end but miserable.

    Balance. Find your inner zen young grasshopper type thing.”

    Exactly. I’m still working out my balance, and I have to say, its a real bitch. I was much happier when I was ignorant, but I know where that leads. So now I know the truth, and I find it difficult to be AS HAPPY about things that used to bring me more joy. To be sure I’m happy, and I’ve said right now I’m happier than I’ve been in a LONG time. But, the happiness I derive from my marriage now IS NOT the same as the happiness I “thought” I had in my blue pill days.

    I keep telling myself it is better to have real happiness, even if it isn’t the same as the supposed happiness I had before.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Industriousness and ambition are key female attraction triggers. It is what it is. If you lose those after marriage, you will probably become less attractive to your wife. I value my husband’s intelligence and work ethic highly. If he suddenly announced he was done, and would be spending all of his time on the couch from now on, I would be very concerned about our relationship.”

    In reality, stuff like this happens a bit a time, rather than a sudden decision.

    So, then, if a woman one day suddenly decides she is done exercising for life, and done eating reasonable amounts of food, and gains 100 pounds, then it’s not a character issue? I imagine it doesn’t just suddenly happen, and just creeps up.

    I think Deti’s point is that men’s concerns like this are deemed disgusting, shallow and piggish by women and society at large, whereas women’s are validated.

    Let me be very clear that the man who dumped his wife for something beyond her control, cancer, is pretty revolting. Equally revolting was M3′s story. Despite that, public opinion will be firmly on the woman’s side in both cases.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think Deti’s point is that men’s concerns like this are deemed disgusting, shallow and piggish by women and society at large, whereas women’s are validated.

      I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure why I have been conscripted to host that debate…

  • BroHamlet

    Allow me to de-lurk for a quick minute here and spitball on something, because this is a GOOD discussion.

    @Susan

    All I will say/ask is this: In my experience, I have found that women have been attracted for me less for the job and the trappings of success, than for the things that I get fired up about (some of which don’t have much to do with my day job). Status comes in many forms- you can be Mr. Big in many arenas, not just at work, and it will attract people to you (in my experience). As long as it’s that combination of things (not imbalanced to just what I can provide her materially) that are the basis for a woman’s attraction to me and in the long run for her love, then I’m fine with that. If her attraction is imbalanced to material criteria to too great a degree, she’s not right for me anyway. Honestly, although it would suck if someone left me or divorced me just because I was out of work for a few months, it would be an even greater loss if she didn’t get pissed at me because I stopped spinning records or training, or doing any one of the things that really make me who I am.

    In my view, the woman that’s worth keeping around is the one who, in addition to wanting you to be a success (for somewhat status-driven reasons not to be equated with greed or a want to pursue wealth to the detriment of other parts of your life), calls you on your bullshit when you stop pursuing what really makes you tick, even if your 9 to 5 is going well.

    Does that square with your view on how a woman should love a man, i.e. the balance of allowing him space to screw up but also pushing him to succeed in the ways that are most important to him? It seems like you are getting at a balance here that I wanted to understand, because it seems similar to my philosophy on the matter.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BroHamlet

      Does that square with your view on how a woman should love a man, i.e. the balance of allowing him space to screw up but also pushing him to succeed in the ways that are most important to him? It seems like you are getting at a balance here that I wanted to understand, because it seems similar to my philosophy on the matter.

      I love that. One of the things women fantasize about is inspiring a man to better himself. “You make me want to be a better man” is standard romance fare. I mentioned earlier that my husband and I decided together that he would seek and then take a lower paying job for lifestyle reasons. Our kids were 3 and 5, and he learned that his department was moving to a location over an hour away. On top of his normally long days, he figured he would not see the children on weeknights at all with a commute like that. He was unwilling to make that compromise. He left an extremely prestigious job and firm to do something more boutique-like. His pay took a huge hit. This decision made me love him even more, and I felt gratified that he was willing to prioritize our family. I have never once resented the loss of material comfort and I believe that if had remained in that high pressure job, our marriage would have been mediocre at best.

      A side benefit of this change was that he was able to begin singing again because he could rehearse on Wednesday evenings, and had more time for a reading project he was enthused about (biographies of every President). He began swimming three mornings a week. And yes, he even began to enjoy some time Couch Potato TV time, well earned after what still is a very full day. These things are far more important than wealth.

      (Note: I anticipate OTC’s response that I’m UMC, which is true. This decision was not a severe hardship, though we did make changes. If my husband had announced he wanted to try making a living as a poet, I would have had a very different response. To be honest.)

  • J

    I’m fully sure you are more than intelligent enough to realize that bad news sells more than good news. I agree with you whole heartedly about the negative vibe in the ‘sphere, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong.

    Thanks for the compliment. I’m not so arrogant as to question the validity of another person’s experience, but when they start to overgeneralize their own bad experiences to others, I think they are indeed wrong.

    I agree with this as well. I commented on that thread, but only because I am genuinely curious about how he feels after the fact, because I’m thinking of doing the same. My wife can’t use hormonal BC, and I’m getting pretty damn tired of having to use “party hats” two weeks out of the month.

    I guess you really have to KNOW that you’d never want another child under an circumstances. Can your wife use an IUD? Can you wait a few years for a male pill or for the RISUG procedure to come to the US? Would you enjoy a vacation to India where RISUG is cheap and common? I just hate to see people do anything permanent they may come to regret.

    But Mentu, who appears to me to be an upstanding citizen holding down a job and living a decent life, determined that the risk (yes RISK) of having a child is TOO GREAT for him to leave it as an option. I’m not even sure what to make of this other than to feel sorrow, not for him, but for all of us.

    Life is full of risks. I literally risked my life in having my kids. At one point, I was offered and turned down a therapeutic abortion. That one individual man, however bright, was too worried about risk to breed and that he was able to find an internet cheering section, says more to me about him and the guys egging him on than it says to me about society or child rearing in general. If anything, it makes the genes of the “risktakers” more valuable. The future belongs to those who show up. That some people want to forfeit their share in the future really doesn’t sadden me as much as it mystifies me. It’s what I call a “right to eat shit” choice. When my kids assert their rights to do something stupid, I’ll tell them they also have a right to eat shit and then offer to fix them up a hot, steaming bowl. Oddly, they never take me up the offer.They have a stronger sense of self-preservation than some adults.

  • Ted D

    J – “Can your wife use an IUD?”
    No. She has had ovarian issues as well as uterus, but so far she IS still able to get pregnant. At 42, I have no desire to start up with diapers and car seats again.

    “Can you wait a few years for a male pill or for the RISUG procedure to come to the US?”
    I’m actually watching that with great interest as you can imagine. I certainly want the FDA to make sure its safe, but honestly I don’t think it can come soon enough.

    “Would you enjoy a vacation to India where RISUG is cheap and common?”
    With the world climate the way it is today? No way. Not to mention the fact that I have very little trust in foreign medicine. People come from all over the world to America for operations, which tells me we’ve got the best of what there is to offer. I won’t trust the safety and well being of “the boys” to anyone from abroad.

    (to clarify, I’m not saying no foreign born doctors. I’m saying no foreign medical facilities. I have no desire to catch some funky bacterial infection because of their bad cleaning habits)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I have never suggested that a woman should violate her marriage vows and withdraw love during times of financial hardship.
    NAWALT TIME!
    Daddy lost his job just coming back from the honeymoon mommy already pregnant with me (we are Catholics that what we do!), he got depressed but mommy was very supportive telling him that everything is going to be fine and jobs come and go anyway. He was unemployed for like a year doing odd jobs till he finally got a job that was so good that mommy got a nanny for me and we were the rich kids for a while in the neighborhood of course we have had our ups and downs in the family but I think this fist test really made sure they wouldn’t made each other bitter over the unpredictability of life.

    was joking, but that show was brilliant at getting the view to feel empathy for this cold blooded killer.

    Hence why I didn’t watched it. Call me crazy but I’m very annoyed of the trend that “bad guys are written as sympathetic” and people eating it up. I had this debate with the Loki’s army girls and boys from the Avengers “But he is so conflicted and he feels everyone loved his brother more than him, we shouldn’t hate him but love him and he is more interesting than Thor” “He is a freaking murderer!!!!” I don’t care how he remembers his childhood he is bad you don’t like bad people because they are cute and conflicted or have a moving backstory I rather cheer for a badly boring good guy than cheer for a brilliantly written bad one. Good writing doesn’t make the actions different, YMMV.

    As anyone who has read The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal we know Joseph was a carpenter but Jesus was apprenticed to Biff’s father who was a stone mason. This lead to many things, chief among them involving the installation of a Roman statue in a villa that was anatomically correct but uncircumcised.
    For those wondering about Biff’s name, his full name was Levi bar Alphaeus and Biff was just a nickname.

    LOL :D

    You say that like it’s a bad thing.

    Heh I’m sure is not PC, if I had a camera with me everything we do our jokes I’m sure child services will take the baby before we even have it, we are so disrespectful and blasphemous and perv…you would be surprised.

    Every time I see the first movie I want to get back into the SCA and take up period fencing. I have held moon bathing picnics as well.

    Hubby knows fencing I don’t but I’m sure I could do the Mamushka…sans the knives ;)

  • Ted D

    J – Oops, wanted to do a two part reply :(

    “That one individual man, however bright, was too worried about risk to breed and that he was able to find an internet cheering section, says more to me about him and the guys egging him on than it says to me about society or child rearing in general.”

    I don’t see it that way. I think our society is legally and morally SO corrupt that intelligent, sensible men are electing biological extinction over the “risk” of having and raising children. If such a man truly believes the world is that screwed up, it would be selfish to go ahead and have children anyway. All it would do is put your own flesh and blood into the meat grinder.

    I don’t have that level of disdain for the world, yet. Of course I already have children, but I’m damn close to feeling like it would be an injustice to have more, even if I wanted them. I fear for what my children will have to face as they become adults, and I fear that it won’t be getting better anytime soon. It isn’t about family court and divorce, it is about the continuing moral decline of the West for me. Family court and divorce just makes the decision to not have children a little easier for some.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And by the way, it is the way men debate. We’re direct and we don’t mince words. If someone is dodging or being disingenuous or creating strawmen or using other fallacies, I call them out on it — male or female.

    I’m going to use this comment to say something I had been thinking about debate styles don’t take it personally.
    What if HUS had Susan nagging at men? Would that make men listening to what is said? Would the message go through? Or you will tune out and hear “blah, blah, blah…” Will they even come here?

    Many women communicate by nagging to get things done their own way, it might work great on other women and some men will do what she wants just to make her shut up, but with men in general terms is just annoying and ineffective. Same principle for men using “men direct style of communication” to make women listen, It doesn’t work for the majority. I get it probably because my own masculine leaning brain and because I grew up with brothers and my dad and probably most of the women that comment here do, but I would go on a limb and say that the women, probably the ones that actually need it the most and you want to listen to your message are probably just tuning out. If you (generally you) care about the message deliver it in a way that your target audience actually listens and gets it, you win nothing for telling a truth no one listens to or can understand,YMMV.

  • Iggles

    I can’t get through all these comments… there is an awful lot o whining going on here today. I’m not trying to be adversarial. Am just calling it like I see it.

    To me, what Susan is saying is clear as day. She never claimed a woman’s love for a man is based on his job! She meant it’s conditional based on what they do — in other words, their ACTIONS. If a man continually disappoints a woman and/or emotional withdraws from her, then it’s going to affect how she feels about him. If he does something that hurts her or betrays her trust, then those would too!

    @ SW:

    The three brain mating systems are Lust, Limerence (falling in love) and Attachment.

    We can feel all three for the same person for a lifetime, feel one each for three different people, etc. The three systems operate independently. (This is Helen Fisher’s work.)

    I know that my husband’s Attachment to me is secure, but I also know that his Lust for me would be affected by a radical change in my appearance.

    This makes perfect sense to me.

    People can feel deeply attached to their spouses while no longer feeling Lust or Limerence. This is equally true for both sexes.

    +1

    I don’t think male love is essentially unconditional and women’s love is conditional. I think the misunderstandings here are due to semantics.

    IMO, being “in love” requires sexual attraction. Otherwise, you feel deep attachment. They’re not the same — without the latter you cannot feel the former!

    However, you can be deeply attached to a romantic partner without being “in love”. You see this play out in longtime couples who don’t know how to let go even though they no longer are in love.
    (Another example of this difference — you love your parents but you’re not “in love” with them. The state of “being in love” is a unique to romantic relationships. Feeling love for another person is not.)

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    An interesting meditation on some of these themes is the movie “The Next Three Days” with Russell Crowe. In the film, the wife of Crowe’s character is arrested for murder and all attempts to clear her through the court system fail over the course of 2-3 years.

    Before the wife can be moved to a new prison, Crowe attempts to study the tactics, techniques, and procedures of criminal escape artists; liquidates all of his belongings; conducts point and area reconnaissance of the jail; prepares escape routes and contingencies; constructs sophisticated plans for the actual actions on the objective; and eventually takes out a meth dealer in order to grab cash.

    He decides to break his wife out of jail, although this will mean spending the rest of their lives on the run. At one point, he is told that he needs to be prepared to leave his young son with the grandparents if necessary, and he is prepared to make even that sacrifice.

    I personally thought that it was a very moving film and it would interesting to see how male and female viewers might view Crowe’s behavior from different perspectives. In terms of accessibility, it helps that he’s portrayed a normal guy, not some ex-SAS badass type who can sneak in and out of high-security facilities with ease.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I thought Escoffier did an especially nice job of maintaining a civil tone in this thread and as I read his comments, I thought they would resonate for young women reading here.”

    Point taken. I can’t promise any quick changes to my usual shtick, but I actually understand where you are coming from. Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think I am trying to “teach the teacher” to an extent here. I know what I have to say is NOT very appealing to 21yo women, but I know YOU have their ear. I suppose I’m no better than the feminists using the public schools to beat down boys, since I’m trying to use you to scare young women straight.

    Story of my life. Right intentions, wrong application. :-P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think I am trying to “teach the teacher” to an extent here.

      I never thought of that, thanks for that insight. Hmmm. OK, well let’s just try and maintain civility – I have work to do on this as well. Perhaps if we think of sitting around a salon rather than standing at a political rally…

      Ted never comes off as harsh to me, as the male commenters go, he is one of the “softer” ones in terms of tone.

      He loves to portray himself as harsh and unyielding, but he’s so damned earnest I can’t see him that way. He is indeed a softie in his way, even when ranting :P

  • Escoffier

    Maybe it’s because I’m a dude, but Ted never comes off as harsh to me, as the male commenters go, he is one of the “softer” ones in terms of tone. I am not a bit surprised that his comments get glossed over on the hard-core sphere sites.

  • J

    @ted

    I understand how you see it, Ted. I think that where there’s life, there’s hope, so I disagree.

    I hate to go Godwin here for fear of trivializing the Holocaust, but I’m going give a Holocaust example. Several of my son’s friends are the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors. No matter how bleak one feels the prospects for today’s society are, I’m sure those feelings pale before whatever those then young people felt 60-some years ago. Some people committed suicide after being liberated. Too much had happened; they couldn’t go on. Others found the courage to rebuild their lives and families.

    I’ve seen real courage. That some men would fear the court system so much that they’d voluntarily sterilize themselves and select themselves out of the future while others with enormous challenges would fight for a future, no matter how frightening and uncertain, interests me. Mentu’s vasectomy seems rather trivial in that light. Perhaps he did the gene pool a favor; the life force seems comparatively weak in him.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    Iggles 551

    IMO, being “in love” requires sexual attraction. Otherwise, you feel deep attachment. They’re not the same — without the latter you cannot feel the former!
    ….
    (Another example of this difference — you love your parents but you’re not “in love” with them. The state of “being in love” is a unique to romantic relationships. Feeling love for another person is not.)

    So when a woman gets fat and pregnant and aged and is no longer sexually attractive in my eyes, i can no longer feel the former love for her?

  • Ted D

    And FWIW, my “adversarial” style is not necessarily meant to intimidate. I just subscribe to the “scared straight” mentality of teaching lessons. Blame my INTJ personality, my Catholic upbringing, or my assholean nature. It goes part and parcel with how often I tend to offend people. Creating offense is never my goal, but I don’t concern myself with it if it happens. The same goes for fear or shock. I don’t necessarily intend to make young women afraid or shocked, but if it works I’m not against it either.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Creating offense is never my goal, but I don’t concern myself with it if it happens. The same goes for fear or shock. I don’t necessarily intend to make young women afraid or shocked, but if it works I’m not against it either.

      You don’t say!

  • Ted D

    J – “I understand how you see it, Ted. I think that where there’s life, there’s hope, so I disagree.”

    Hey, knowing what I do I still got married a second time. I generally agree with you on the issue of hope. But I have to tell you, it is getting DAMN hard to simply put my head down and climb the hill some days. Not that I’m unhappy with my own little bubble of life. But, I’m less than thrilled at what my bubble has to float around in, and I often worry that some of that crap will get in and spoil it. If I was a young man with no children at this very moment, I would be thinking very hard about how much I want to have children, and if that desire was for me, or for them. Because honestly, having children shouldn’t be an entirely selfish thing, which is why I am against single mothers going to fertilization to have one without a man. That is a selfish reason to give birth. Now, that same women adopting a homeless child? Totally acceptable and commendable. That child is already here, so all she would be doing is making its life better.

    If my children weren’t here today, I don’t know if I’d want to bring them into this world tomorrow. I’m not saying I wouldn’t just yet, but to me it is awfully sad that I even have a doubt.

  • Höllenhund

    Maybe it’s because I’m a dude, but Ted never comes off as harsh to me, as the male commenters go, he is one of the “softer” ones in terms of tone

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. The lengths to which he goes to try avoid coming across as insensitive and offensive to women is almost comical, I think. I simply find it amusing how he and deti always engage the women who appear on Manosphere blogs, dutifully typing in multi-paragraph comments, trying to calmly and rationally explain things to these women, over and over and over, pretty much to no avail whatsoever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      I simply find it amusing how he and deti always engage the women who appear on Manosphere blogs, dutifully typing in multi-paragraph comments, trying to calmly and rationally explain things to these women, over and over and over, pretty much to no avail whatsoever.

      Does this mean you do have a sense of humor? I thought we’d ruled that out.

      The problem with Deti’s commentary is that, while clear and logical, I often disagree with it. He can explain his POV 24/7, and I’m not going to agree that men love unconditionally, while women are incapable of that exalted state.

      Re Ted’s commentary, he admits to enjoying HUS as a comfy and cozy place to digest his red pill. That sucker is huge, he’s been trying to get it down for months. While I like Ted and hope he’ll stick around, I believe he is right to appreciate my willingness to engage him repeatedly on the same points, particularly as he has admitted that he’s interested in teaching, i.e. talking, rather than learning, i.e. listening.

  • http://whoism3.wordpress.com M3

    J 555

    Mentu’s vasectomy seems rather trivial in that light. Perhaps he did the gene pool a favor; the life force seems comparatively weak in him.

    Somehow i doubt Mentu is agonizing over your moralizing tone. Borderline shaming. Almost feels like a reverse psych in an attempt to get him to man up.

    And i’m sure he’s not concerned one iota about how you feel. All he needs to do is look at the tens of thousands of disenfranchised men who’s lives have been destroyed by having their children ripped away from them by the power of the state because of a ‘good woman’s’ word, or being forced to hand over tons of his hard earned assets to pay support for a child he never intended to have, only because he wanted the same right that women have, to enjoy sex without consequence.

    I’m one of his cheerleaders but for a different reason. I don’t ascribe to Hemingway’s premise that this place is worth fighting for. The last 36 years i’ve seen a world that didn’t give one squat about me, and owed me nothing.

    I return the favor. Enjoy the decline. I’ll be poolside. Reap what you sow. If the world is going down the drain.. i’d rather enjoy it on my terms rather than be shackled to it or dare bring another life into it. Bringing a child into this future is an act of cruelty IMO.

    If Mentu did the gene pool a favor, i shudder to think you consider all the thug spawn emotionally crippled no-dad single mom children a gene pool success worth celebrating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      All he needs to do is look at the tens of thousands of disenfranchised men who’s lives have been destroyed by having their children ripped away from them by the power of the state because of a ‘good woman’s’ word, or being forced to hand over tons of his hard earned assets to pay support for a child he never intended to have, only because he wanted the same right that women have, to enjoy sex without consequence.

      Wow, props to Mentu. He went under the knife in solidarity with MRAs? I figured he just didn’t want more kids. That is selfless!

  • Mike C

    Whoa, cowboy. Did I write a post on the male-female difference in love?

    No, but the subject came up as the thread evolved. It isn’t a stretch that differences in how the sexes love can be connected to women needing men and what exactly that means from both a woman’s POV and what a man might think that means

    Did I approve that topic for discussion on my blog?

    Do topics in comment threads need your a priori approval? It is your blog. You can run it however you wish. You can delete whatever you want. I think you can delete the sort of completely off the wall off-topic stuff Plain Jane posts and be immune from criticism about censorship and creating an echo chamber. I think you can delete posts that are along the lines of “wimmenz are evil creatures just out to abuse men” and be immune from criticism about censorship and creating an echo chamber. What you cannot do is state which topics are off-limits simply because they are uncomfortable yet will within the scope of overall SMP issues and intergender dynamics and still maintain that you allow for “vigorous debate”. At that point, you become like the politicians saying they are for “balanced budgets”. It just becomes empty words. Clearly, I struck a nerve on this particular topic. Good. It drew out some good ideas from various commenters including yourself, Escoffier, BroHamlet, etc.

    Question for you. If your son killed your husband, would you still love him? What about vice versa? How do those answers distinguish between a love that is oriented around actions versus an “essence”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      No, but the subject came up as the thread evolved. It isn’t a stretch that differences in how the sexes love can be connected to women needing men and what exactly that means from both a woman’s POV and what a man might think that means

      Are you really claiming that you see nothing wrong with bringing a Rollo thread over here? You deliberately introduced a topic with a very definite whiff of female “incapacity” to it. You know exactly how I feel about setting the sexes up as enemies, yet that is Rollo’s MO and like most of his posts, this one was no exception.

      What you cannot do is state which topics are off-limits simply because they are uncomfortable yet will within the scope of overall SMP issues and intergender dynamics and still maintain that you allow for “vigorous debate”.

      You are incorrect. I design the menu, and you are welcome to join the table or not. I don’t serve up much misogyny around here, because I don’t like it. You’ll need to go elsewhere for that particular treat. I allow (and get) vigorous debate on almost everything I post here. I see no strategic need to expand my offerings into areas I dislike.

      I wrote this post to give women advice to “woman up.” Do you really not see how incredibly inappropriate it is for you to swing by and suggest that perhaps women are incapable of fully loving a man? Is that what you think my readers need to hear? He wrote his post for men. I wrote mine for women. I’m astounded this isn’t clear to you.

      Clearly, I struck a nerve on this particular topic. Good. It drew out some good ideas from various commenters including yourself, Escoffier, BroHamlet, etc.

      Because I allowed it, even though it was a total time suck and had nothing to do with what young women need to hear. You have plenty of opportunities to strike a nerve around here, there’s no need for you to bring in the propaganda of a man I disrespect. I consider it deeply disrespectful to me and what I’m trying to do here.

      Question for you. If your son killed your husband, would you still love him? What about vice versa? How do those answers distinguish between a love that is oriented around actions versus an “essence”.

      I have said twice now that I believe there are two sources of unconditional love. God and parents. I am incapable of not loving my own children. If my husband murdered my son I would cease loving him and I would leave him forever.

  • Höllenhund

    Several of my son’s friends are the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors. No matter how bleak one feels the prospects for today’s society are, I’m sure those feelings pale before whatever those then young people felt 60-some years ago. Some people committed suicide after being liberated. Too much had happened; they couldn’t go on. Others found the courage to rebuild their lives and families.

    False parallel. Those who survived the Holocaust and emigrated, or returned to their homelands, found themselves in societies with great capacity for economic growth, booming populations and a still existent widespread trust in various idealist ideologies, both leftist and rightist, and resilient social and cultural structures.

    None of that applies today, anywhere. The majority of the human race is already practising voluntary extinction, and birthrates are rapidly collapsing even in countries which used to be fertile, like Brazil or the entire Middle East. This is unprecedented in written history. And every demographic implosion is a vicious circle until it becomes irreversible, as it has already happened in Italy and Spain, for example.

    Every single ideology and religion has discredited itself, and every society has utterly exhausted itself, both economically and otherwise. We’ve been eating the seed corn of civilization for the past 40 years, and there’s simply nowhere else to go at this point.

    Thus the argument that “where there’s life, there’s always hope” is bunk. We’ve already invented all the means necessary for our own destruction, and most people don’t even realize that.

  • fullmoonmama

    hey guys, what are we talking about?
    oh shit. lol. bad time to de-lurk ;)
    yeah… so ima go look at Hope’s baby pic. Good luck in here.
    (Before I retreat, I did like this line from Ted : “somewhere between my utter nonsense and yours, there is truth and reality.”)
    p.s. I love men. I love nurturing a man. I need men. And red pill men are the best :) even the long winded ones…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @fullmoonmama

      Haha, come back when the storm clears!

  • Höllenhund

    One has to have a sense of humor. Very often humor is the only appropriate response to what we encounter in thos grotesque, misshapen world dominated by a race of cretins.

    Ted just comes across as exceedingly beta to me. It’s like he’s always trying to apologize for having a dick and a different opinion of his own.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      grotesque, misshapen world dominated by a race of cretins.

      Misanthropic much? :)

  • Emily

    >> “And this is partly why I just can’t “quit” you. Unlike most women, you not only stick in there when the discussion gets tough, you often double down and push harder”

    I suspect that the lack of female regulars in certain threads is less that the discussion is “tough” and more that certain topics have gotten really old. There are some *really* dead horses are constantly being dragged out.

    I’ve fallen into the habit of tl;dr-ing certain debates, and I’m probably not the only one.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Emily

      that certain topics have gotten really old. There are some *really* dead horses are constantly being dragged out.

      I’ve fallen into the habit of tl;dr-ing certain debates, and I’m probably not the only one.

      Thanks for the feedback. I hadn’t heard that explicitly and it’s good to know. I think many of us are fatigued by some of these debates, even the perps. (Female hypergamy, anyone?)

  • Höllenhund

    You’ll need to go elsewhere for that particular treat. I allow (and get) vigorous debate on almost everything I post here. I see no strategic need to expand my offerings into areas I dislike.

    No. As long as certain subjects are declared taboo on the grounds that young women don’t want to hear about them, then this cannot, by definition, be a place for “rigorous debate”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No. As long as certain subjects are declared taboo on the grounds that young women don’t want to hear about them, then this cannot, by definition, be a place for “rigorous debate”.

      That’s ridiculous. Are you saying bloggers have no right to control their own content and post topics?

      I write a post, you may feel free to debate it. I maintain the right to declare something OT. I don’t let Plain Jane go on about India, I don’t let Obsidian talk about swirling. They’re always OT. In the event I decide to write about either of those topics, their commentary on them will be welcome.

      Finally, it’s my call on what my readers need to hear, not another reader’s call. It’s also my call when I learn that they’re bored to tears by middle aged men complaining about their ex wives! That is 90% irrelevant to my mission. (10% for being anecdotally informative about divorce.)

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Höllenhund.

    You wrote :

    Feminists may be malignant, but they aren’t stupid. They are political geniuses. They have already co-opted and corrupted Western Christianity and conservatism. When Game and the men’s movement gains enough mainstream exposure, they will co-opt those as well, in order to de-fang the potential opposition and to mobilize yet another tool against men.

    I don’t always like how you say things, but I’ll admit that what you wrote here, is true.

    *********************************************************************
    @HerrKaiser

    You wrote :

    However, for the West, a shift to the Yuan means a reduction in economic condition akin to abject poverty; think Mexico. In fact, this ties into the sites general theme because the death of Western dominance, and the state of privation that will follow, will also mean the death of feminism and a return to patriarchy (if not something even harsher).

    We are likely to see the world become more conservative (in an Asian sense) on matters of sexual relations (among other things) as they will reject Western ideas with the West’s demise; no one wants to hear the ideas of or imitate the behavior of a failed civilization. So you may rejoice in knowing the sexual dynamics that have reigned for the last 40 years are almost at end (15 years tops), but what a price to pay.

    And why is that ? Niall Ferguson wrote the following :

    For roughly thirty years, young people at Western schools and universities have been given the idea of a liberal education, without the substance of historical knowledge. They have been taught isolated ‘modules’, not narratives, much less chronologies. They have been trained in the formulaic analysis of document excerpts, not in the key skill of reading widely and fast. They have been encouraged to feel empathy with imagined Roman centurions or Holocaust victims, not to write essays about why and how their predicaments arose.

    So what is China doing right then ? Niall Ferguson writes that China “downloaded” the six killer apps that made the West so successful.

    To wit : Competition, Scientific Revolution, Property Rights, Modern Medicine, Consumer Society, and a Work Ethic.

    Which city has a truly bright future HerrKaiser : Hong Kong or New York ?
    This writer expressed it like this :

    We are all now aware of the emergence of China as a world economic force. The purpose of this article is to examine the real motivations of China and India.

    The Chinese had the advantage of watching what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese found that when you messed with America in a war, you lost. However, the Japanese backed off and, without any natural resources and only a limited population, they mounted a second attack upon the United States of America in the arena of economics.

    They rose from nowhere to become the second largest economy in the world. But the one thing the Japanese did not have was a population large enough to accomplish what the United States had done in the same circumstances. When the United States began to produce things, they not only exported them initially, the only exports were limited ones to Europe, but they had an internal consuming economy, courtesy of no lesser personage than one Mister Henry Ford.

    The Japanese did not have that critical mass and therefore never achieved the status of number one economic power; they accomplished their economic power from export alone.

    The Chinese observed this and observed yet another phenomenon: the Russians. After the fall of the Wall in 1989, Russia chose to change its government before it changed its economy. That didn’t work.

    The Chinese knew by the end of Mao’s reign that their system would not work for the long term; they began to make minor modifications. Then, having observed both the Japanese and the Russians, they allowed minor pockets of free enterprise to flourish within China.

    They established the so-called state-owned enterprises (SOE) where they would compete in the world economy. The socio-political system that established the SOE’s kept them from being full-blown successes, but they realized their potential. When the 90′s arrived, Japan was on the decline, and the United States was becoming involved as the world’s only superpower.

    There opened a door and the new regime in China, that wishes to maintain political power, said ; OK, we have an opportunity. We have the cheapest labor force in the world and we have the world’s largest single source of power outside the sun (for those of you who don’t know, I refer to the Three-Gorges Dam).

    And the rest is history.

    Now consider this : A big country with a large population; the strongest economy on the continent; an aggressive leadership; and not afraid to throw its weight around the continent.

    And this country is getting grief from an Island State with a smaller population; reliant on exports to grow its economy; an insular culture; but with a talent for innovation …

    Which country would win in a war between them ?

    The big country you say ?

    Wrong.

    Britain beat France quite a few times in the 18’th and 19’th centuries. But you were thinking of Japan weren’t you ?

    Now why is that ?

    I contend that whatever place China assumes in the future, China will eventually vacate it for Japan. So by all means let us praise Beijing, but let us also take a peek at Tokyo.

    *********************************************************************
    @Obsidian

    You wrote :

    Her problem is that she, like so many sistas (and by extension, white women too) is that shes priced herself outta the market. The customers she wants isnt interested in what shes selling. Period.

    Right off the top of my head i can think up easily a dozen or so brothas, all of them like i said, good looking, gainfully employed, nice homes/condos/apts, and NONE of them wish to jump the broom. Why?

    Because, for one thing, the pickings aint anywhere near as great as many sistas would like to believe about themselves; and two, yea, marriage is a bad deal for the guy.

    If all the men were employed, all the women would get dates. And if all the men thought that marriage was beneficial, all men would marry. No self-respecting woman asks a guy out on a date, nor does she propose a marriage. That’s a male prerogative … and will always be … and since this is disappearing, all the women are getting drunk … and indignant … ha …

    I have a question for you : I know that a larger proportion of Black Males are serving in the Armed Forces than any other racial group in the US. If you know any of these gentlemen, how do they handle themselves around women ?

    How do they compare with Black Men that never served ?

    Last question : Can I say that the more guns there are in a ghetto, the less and less police you’ll see there ?

    *********************************************************************
    @Herb

    You wrote :

    Africa will continue its tradition of being carved up by someone else, probably India and China this time with Islamic North Africa keeping on keeping on. The most interesting African conflict will be the three way struggle between India, China, and various Islamic states over the Horn of Africa.

    What about Panama, Cape Horn, and The Cape of Good Hope ?
    South Africa itself may just end up posing geo-strategic headaches for quite a few powers. Am I right in this ?

    You also wrote this :

    No, I’m recommending a culture that celebrates those who do something.

    Time was a man who went out, earned a living, and saved some for his family had respect. The richest man in town was a respectable individual who was honored for his work and philanthropy, not shunned for his greed. A doctor was a respected profession instead of someone we sued if we received a less than perfect outcome.

    The guy who built and owned a movie theater was someone you thanked for providing entertainment not someone you sued because a nutjob came into his theater and shot people (Aurora survivors are planning on suing the theater, btw).

    I can only agree by adding this :

    “Because that’s the only real choice you ever get in your whole life – whether or not you’re going to participate. You might want to notice that not participating is also a decision – it’s a decision to be a victim of the consequences. Refuse to handle your own responsibilities and you will get the consequences. Every time ! You can count on it.”

    “So here’s the punch line – pay attention. `Let George do it’ is not just the slogan of a lazy man – it’s the credo of the slave. If you want to be taken care of, and not have to worry, that’s fine; you can join the rest of the cattle. Cattle are comfortable – that’s how you recognize them.

    Just don’t complain when they ship you off to the packing plant. They’ve bought and paid for the privilege.”

    “You sold it to them. Now if you want to be free, then get this: freedom is not about being comfortable. It’s about seizing and using opportunities – and using them responsibly.

    Freedom is not comfort. It’s commitment. Commitment is the willingness to be uncomfortable. The two aren’t incompatible, but there are damn few free men on welfare.”

    “The free man, class, doesn’t just survive – he challenges!”

    ********************************************************************
    @Susan&Deti

    Get a room.
    ********************************************************************

    @Sai.

    My darlinks … yes yes yes … I steals yourses idea … it’s coz I ams lazy … ;-)

  • Ted D

    Hollenhund – “Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. The lengths to which he goes to try avoid coming across as insensitive and offensive to women is almost comical, I think. I simply find it amusing how he and deti always engage the women who appear on Manosphere blogs, dutifully typing in multi-paragraph comments, trying to calmly and rationally explain things to these women, over and over and over, pretty much to no avail whatsoever.”

    It is my curse that I fully expect every single human alive to be intelligent and logical. When I end up “debating” with people who are not, I tend to believe I’m simply not explaining myself clearly enough. I often offend people, so I constantly work at delivering my message in the least offensive manner possible. And yet I still piss people off and get ignored. Even though I know this, I sometimes just can’t help myself.

    I also spent more time than I care to admit writing technical documentation meant for non-technical folks. Because of that I got into the habit of saying the same thing over and over in a different manner trying to get some sign of understanding. I’m actually pretty damn good at showing technologically challenged people how to use a computer, but as I get older I have less patience for the task.

    Thankfully my personal happiness doesn’t directly depend on people having intelligence and logical thinking skills, or I would be a very unhappy soul.

    Susan – “He loves to portray himself as harsh and unyielding, but he’s so damned earnest I can’t see him that way. He is indeed a softie in his way, even when ranting ”

    There you go saying nice things about me again. I’m actually glad I don’t come across as the ranting maniac I feel like sometimes.

    Also, I do come here to listen just as much as I come to teach. I mean it when I say that HUS and by extension you are a primary reason I am happily married today. I know I’m no Red Pill Pro, but I’m past digestion. I get it, and I’m dealing with it in my own way. That doesn’t mean I like it, and doesn’t mean I will stop bringing to light what I feel are injustices to men and/or women in our society. If completely digesting the Red Pill means accepting and resigning myself to those injustices, then I will never finish digesting it. I’ll do what I have to do to make my marriage successful, but I won’t stop trying to change things because I don’t want my boys to have to do the same. I want them to be able to have a successful marriage on their own terms without having to compromise there ideals, which means two things to me:
    1. I need to do my best to make sure my boys have a more realistic (NOT manosphere view only) view of women and relationships than I had as a young man.
    2. I need to keep trying to figure out how to change things for the better in regards to creating a society that promotes marriage and family. To that end I have no intention of settling down and keeping quiet just because someone explained to me how to cheat the system. And to me “gaming” my wife really is a cheat or a band-aid to fix a problem created by our declining morality. Not all Red Pill knowledge to be sure, but many of the more PUA type tactics will never be fully palatable to me. And I hope for a future where my boys don’t need to use such ploys to get female attention of any kind.

  • Ted D

    Hollenhund – “Ted just comes across as exceedingly beta to me. It’s like he’s always trying to apologize for having a dick and a different opinion of his own”

    Lol. It’s funny. After Escoffier mentioned how he wasn’t surprised that I get ignored in the ‘sphere, I thought that it’s been a long time since I’ve been called a beta, a mangina, or a white knight. So thanks for bringing the heat.

    And I’m not in the least apologetic for having a dick. I’m actually quite fond of it and try to put it to good use as often as possible. At the moment that is around 5 to 10 times a week, though I expect to fall back to around 5 – 6 once we settle in.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve fallen into the habit of tl;dr-ing certain debates, and I’m probably not the only one.

    Tip:
    Ignore the deadhorsebeaters commenters: when a thread grows many male commenter add valuable insight. There are only 3 or 4 IMO that come here with an agenda and an equine corpse hidden on a bag, to take the first chance to twist the comments to serve their agenda 24/7. Identify them and skip them and you will find more willing to engage and comment, just my two cents.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Herb/ Susan/ Marellus/INTJ and all

    Herb, you seem not to get it, there is not going to be a war and the West will not last until 2050 nor will the rise of China take that long; the end is not near, it is here! Just as the British saw their ability to project power cease with their declining economic fortunes, so too will the United States. Aside from the pressing fiscal cost of maintaining “Pax Americana”, we lack the industrial capacity to support it. As Sun-Tzu said, “Every battle is won or lost before it is ever fought”; an objective look at China’s economic and industrial state shows us China has already won the battle. The West will collapse overnight without a single shoot being fired. Mark my words, the United States and by extension has less than 15 years before complete ruin. It is clear that China will have no rivals at that point; if you think India is a contender for world power, you are not thinking clearly. India’s per capita GDP is in line with Nigeria and Sudan; and they are about as well organized. I don’t like Mark Styen, but he once asked a profound question; “Do you really believe the laws of God will be suspended in favor of the United States simply because you were born in it”. I want to give you a quote:

    “Now, it is surely probable that the European nations, with their production limited, and its price enhanced by Socialism, and with exchange among themselves fettered by Protection, would find themselves at a great disadvantage in competing with a really industrial China. The resources of China
    are immense, the capacity of its people for toil is almost unlimited, and their wants are of the slenderest. The great mass of the people lives ascetically, and retains its habits, even when it is thrown among wasteful races like the English of America and Australia, who despise and distrust asceticism. The organisation of labour appears to be largely in the hands of employers, who maintain their ascendency by murder. We may assume all this to be modified, but we cannot assume the change to be so sudden and complete that Chinese industry will conform to the standards of the Western world. What is true of the Chinese is true more or less of Hindoos and negroes. A hundred years hence, when these races, which are now as two to one to the higher, shall be as three to one ; when they have borrowed the science of Europe, and developed their still virgin worlds, the pressure of their competition upon the white man will be irresistible. He will be driven from every neutral market and forced to confine himself within his own. Ultimately he will have to conform to the Oriental standard of existence, or, and this is the probable solution, to stint the increase of population. If he does this by methods that are inconsistent with morality, the very life-springs of the race will be tainted. If he does it by a patient self-restraint that shows itself in a limitation to late marriages national character will be unimpaired, but material decline will have commenced. With civilisation equally diffused, the most populous country must ultimately be the most powerful; and the preponderance of China over any rival even over the United States of America is likely to be overwhelming.”

    The quote is from “A National Life and Character: A forecast” by Charles Henry Pearson. Pearson was writing in 1896; he was a modern day Amos predicting Western decline and decay. Unlike a Vox Day, who blames immigrants and minorities for Western decline (you should read some of the things he writes for WorldNetDaily), Pearson places the blame squarely where it belongs, on Western men themselves. In his book, Pearson, foresee the disaster that will be wrought by the growth of “State Socialism” in the West. Although he expresses sympathy for ideas like the minimum wage and state support of living standards, he sees that the result will be to drain the vigor out of Western men and render them inferior to people they consider to be “lower races”. He gives a brilliant example of how the Spaniard and Turk where once among the most accomplished and feared men on earth and how they now (1896) have fallen to a pitiful state. Of particular interest is his forecast for the fate of fathers; if the state shall be the father of all children and husband to all woman (by providing them their living standard), what role can there be for fathers and how can they maintain their authority over the family;

  • HerrKaiser

    after a hundred years, we know they cannot. For a long time I was baffled by European hostility to Arab immigrants and the Arabs inability to assimilate; it later occurred to me that the problem was one of world view. The Arabs see no reason to assimilate into dysfunctional and dying cultures and Europeans are hostile to a people who, despite living in countries where the welfare state has made the government the father of every child and husband to every woman, will not adjust their family dynamics to norm around them; the Arab man is still master of his home. In the case of the United States we have been stagnate (and in many area declining in terms of median household income, male wage rates, share of world GDP, industrial output) since 1968; note the decline started before non-white immigration, feminism’s victory, and civil rights for minorities. American decline was born out of the end of the post-World War Two economic boom that was nothing more than American rent extraction from the rest of the world. Although there is a long progression of event to trace from medieval Catholic values, the growth of Calvinism and the vigorous energy it brought to the west, the spread of secular reactionary values in the form of “Young Schools”, the formation of secular Calvinist value in the form of eugenics and genetic determinism, to the rise of secular Catholic values in the form of Fascism; what is clear is that the genesis of Western decline is to be found in its own values and ideologies. At the heart of the West’s economic maladies is it a failure to save and the greatest impetus to savings is care and concern for the long term fate of one’s family. If Western Men cannot hope to marry and produce families, what care can they have for the future? If the procurement of a mate and chasing sex is to occupy all their time, when can they focus on building (or even preserving) their civilization? I believe it was Bonland who said, “You think this crisis was caused by a deficit in finances, look deeper; it was caused by a deficit in the very principal of society”.

  • Emily

    >> “Ignore the deadhorsebeaters commenters: when a thread grows many male commenter add valuable insight. There are only 3 or 4 IMO that come here with an agenda and an equine corpse hidden on a bag, to take the first chance to twist the comments to serve their agenda 24/7. Identify them and skip them and you will find more willing to engage and comment, just my two cents.”

    I dunno…

    There are a couple of commenters who I pretty much always ignore. (These ones are the really trollish ones. I suspect pretty much everybody can guess who they are).

    But when certain topics get dragged out again and again, I tend to find myself skipping over people whose comments I’d normally enjoy. Maybe this is a YMMV situation.

  • http://uncabob.blogspot.com/ Bob Wallace

    @ HerrKaiser,

    “In the case of the United States we have been stagnate (and in many area declining in terms of median household income, male wage rates, share of world GDP, industrial output) since 1968″

    Since 1973, not ’68, and the cause is not hard: Nixon went off the gold standard in ’71, allowing the Federal Reserve Bank to inflate with no brakes, severely damaging the economy.

    When you have a badly damaged economy, it effects the relationships between men and women. People respond to incentives.

    And it does have something to do with 85-IQ immigrants flooding this country, including those from the backward and inbred Arabs of the Middle East.

    Your posts are gobbledygook.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser.

    1) Defend our borders.
    2) Build our roads.
    3) Deliver our mail.
    4) Enforce contracts.
    5) Deal with criminals.

    That’s all ‘our’ government should ever do.

    How long can a State remain viable when there’s more people that lives by the largesse of it, than people that funds it ?

    And now we’re back to ‘redistribution of wealth’ and all the noble ideas that justifies it. My only question to its apologists is this :

    Give me a number.

    How much of every $100 bill are you ultimately going to take for this ?

    They never want to answer that one.

    In 1834 England amended its Poor Laws; and they were harsh enough to make distinctions between ‘deserving’ and ‘undeserving’ poor. Welfare payments dropped, and the economy grew.

    It makes you think doesn’t it.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Bob

    Sir, the number I have say 1968, but even 1973 is only seven years after the last Civil Rights Act, seem rather quick for decline to take hold. Secondly, you didn’t state why Nixon went off the “Gold Standard”; it was really the Bretton Woods standard and it fixed all the world currencies to the US dollar and the dollar at a rate of $35 to an ounce of gold. The American economy was already show signs of stagnation in the 1960, the Fed had expended the monetary base to try to stimulate growth, but all lead to large trade imbalances. Nixon was forced to go off the “Gold Standard” when France demand that America redeem their dollar holding at the promised $35 to ounce rate; seeing it would drain our gold reserves, Nixon broke the peg. Why don’t put aside you prejudice, show some objectivity, and do some research.

  • Höllenhund

    Are you saying bloggers have no right to control their own content and post topics?

    Huh? How did you even come up with that question? I never said that. I said what I said. There’s no reason to repeat it, and it has nothing to do with what bloggers have a right to do or not. You can ban and moderate in any way you want, it’s just that, as a result, this place won’t be one of rigorous debate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You can ban and moderate in any way you want, it’s just that, as a result, this place won’t be one of rigorous debate.

      It won’t exist at all, which may be what you’re advocating. I learned the hard way that allowing a free for all here results in chaos of a most unpleasant sort. Civilization requires rules of order.

  • J

    But it’s not her body I LOVE. I love HER. Her body’s not as tight as it was 18 years ago. I stay because I love HER, not because I love her body.

    Wow, Deti! I’ve never heard you say that before. That’s really nice!

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    This thread seems to have run its course awhile ago. I’ll just say that husbands that allow themselves to become subordinate in status to their wife are just as bad as wives who let themselves go and age poorly. Both are basically violating the unwritten contract that you must maintain the attraction of your spouse.

    Susan, have you considered simply implementing a comment limit on posts? It seems after around two-hundred or so nothing of consequence is said.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, have you considered simply implementing a comment limit on posts? It seems after around two-hundred or so nothing of consequence is said.

      Nah, I like to let them go as long as people want to comment. Some the most interesting convos happen after the 1,000 mark!

      I generally only post 2-3 times a week, so people tend to hang out in whatever comment thread is current for a couple of days.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Marellus

    They cannot give you an answer because the action is not founded on objective measures, but rather on their convictions and beliefs. It is an objective fact that there cannot be consumption without product and every dollar spent in current consumption (welfare or otherwise) is a dollar that is not being invested for future production. However, I doubt that even if you were to abolish the welfare state in the West it would drive people to work and save. The ideology that drives a man to focus all of his time on achievement, rigorous self-discipline, and savings is just as irrational and subjective as the ideology that encourages him to dedicate his life to hedonism, women, and contemplating his navel. Unfortunately for the West, we have many who preach the later and we have not seen the former in fashion since the days of militant Calvinism. I am personally opposed to all state sponsored social welfare; for both the undeserving and deserving poor.

  • Ted D

    Mr. Nervous Toes – speak for yourself. I tend to enjoy the comments more after the first page or two of fluff.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Worldwide productivity slowed down in the 1970s. Wasn’t just the US. Back in the good ol’ days North Korea was richer than South Korea.

    We reached the full maturation of the Industrial Revolution and the Information Revolution hasn’t taken hold yet. It also seems the US is STILL the pioneer in the innovation frontier: so we go, so the world goes. And we have been under-investing in our capital and our workforce for quite some time in favor of higher housing prices, additional consumption, and Chinese goods.

    The US economy is heavily structured to take advantage of international trade and finance, and to reward a certain sector of professional workers internally. The US is not an inclusive economy anymore, it is increasingly a a winner-take-all rentier economy, similar to a modern feudalism. There will be no Information Revolution and no Robot Factory Revolution because the US isn’t going to lead it and no other country is positioned to take over.

    On the subject of China:
    On a per-hour basis, Korea is no more productive than Russia. I highly doubt China will come anywhere close to Korea. They have a good amount of growth left in them soon, but they aren’t going to be world dominating in the way people think they will be, and when they hit that upper limit they’ll be screwed.

    The future belongs to a small group of privileged citizens within each country that will be able to exploit that nation’s resources. It does not belong to any particular country.

  • J

    @HH

    Somehow i doubt Mentu is agonizing over your moralizing tone. Borderline shaming. Almost feels like a reverse psych in an attempt to get him to man up.

    I really don’t care if he is agonizing over my opinion or mans up or whatever, my point was that I don’t see this as an act of courage to be celebrated or politicized. If anything, it points to a temperment the loss of which probably won’t hurt the gene pool as much the ‘sphere thinks the loss of Mentu’s high IQ genes will. If he wants to take himself out of the picture, it’s his business. I can’t get all choked about it the way some of you guys are.

    All he needs to do is look at the tens of thousands of disenfranchised men who’s lives have been destroyed by having their children ripped away from them by the power of the state because of a ‘good woman’s’ word, or being forced to hand over tons of his hard earned assets to pay support for a child he never intended to have, only because he wanted the same right that women have, to enjoy sex without consequence.

    Again, on a personal level, I could give a shit, but if he were someone I love, I’d point out to him before he did something drastic that there are also tens of thousands, if not more, of happy families.
    The last 36 years i’ve seen a world that didn’t give one squat about me, and owed me nothing.

    There’s the crux of the issue!

    I return the favor. Enjoy the decline. I’ll be poolside. Reap what you sow. If the world is going down the drain.. i’d rather enjoy it on my terms rather than be shackled to it or dare bring another life into it. Bringing a child into this future is an act of cruelty IMO.

    But you’re not poolside, enjoying the carnage, you’re here, bitching–and to people who celebrate the lives of their own kids on top of it.

    If Mentu did the gene pool a favor, i shudder to think you consider all the thug spawn emotionally crippled no-dad single mom children a gene pool success worth celebrating.

    I’m not sure that genes that contribute to angry, frightened or bitter are intrinsically better than than thuggish ones. There’s a healthy middle gound, you know.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Beta Guy

    In terms of patents produced per dollar of R&D spending and patents per capita, South Korea is the innovation leader. Remember, productivity is measured by the value of goods produced IN DOLLAR TERMS, thus a 200% appreciation of the Yuan and/or a significant decline in the dollar would push the Chinese to the front of the pack. An objective look at China leads me to believe they will dominate the world, leading to additional innovations, but I understand that it is a though American try very hard not believe.

  • Sai

    @Herb
    “However, the civilian casualties and suffering that would result will stay the US as we are not the country of WW2 any longer.”
    I was just thinking something like that Tuesday… if we’d had different people in charge the maps would show a smoking crater next to Pakistan, and maybe in place of Pakistan too. I know that would be bad but I just can’t bring myself to feel guilty (they wanted a war, let’s give them a war).

    To all the men: 
    This has really given me something to think about. I AM NOT OFFENDED BY YOUR HONESTY -I haven’t typed anything because I was working late and can’t get a signal in/around that building.
    It might be that I’m not done purging the feminazi brainwashing, or it might be because I’m not the warmest of people and mostly use my heart to just pump blood, but I could not see staying with my husband if he had no job for too long. Nor could I see him staying with me if I quit caring about my health/appearance. Why would he want a (your favorite mean word here) when that wasn’t what he chose to marry?
    Then I saw the comments you all left here and I started to feel like shite… He would not shut off the feeling even if I let myself go? Even if I shut him out and walked away and didn’t look back? I would leave a black mark on some poor man for the rest of his life, even if he could do better and did?
    I didn’t know men’s feelings were like that.
    Ted D is right, it’s good to know more so I can improve more.
    Thanks for being honest, guys.

    “The reason why it’s good to talk about this is so that everyone, men and women alike, understand what the dangers are.”
    I agree very strongly.

    …er, why will the economic decline last until 2035? It’s more than welcome, but what’s going to make it stop at that point?

    “The future belongs to a small group of privileged citizens within each country that will be able to exploit that nation’s resources. It does not belong to any particular country.”
    Well, until the riots Ted spoke of happen, then the future belongs to Lord Humungus.

    @Anacaona
    I like Thor because he fights crime and I like Loki because he gives Thor a good fight (and some days I just want to watch something get blown up).

    @Höllenhund
    What you said is one reason I don’t want to have children. They’ll grow up cursing me, and eat me alive (maybe literally).

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Actual patents don’t matter, what matters is being able to mobilize people, capital, and resources to produce goods and services. The Asian economies in general are not very good at this. They are still highly corporatist and resistant to change. I believe both nations stopped closing the productivity gap with the US after their respective financial crises.

    Not sure about SK, but part of the problem in Japan is sending good money after bad. Zombie banks, which are banks that are functionally insolvent, keep getting bailed out, who then put money into failing companies to “recoup” their investment: good money chasing after bad, pot committed, whatever.

    China is going to run into the same problem ten-fold with local bureaucrats supporting whatever pet industry they happen to like. I imagine whatever respective financial crisis they run into, and they will run into one, will be catastrophic.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Beta Guy

    From what I have seen the Asian firms are the best in the world at organization; I haven’t contracted with a Western manufacture in probably two years now; even the Germans cannot get it done as fast and as efficiently as the Koreans. Remember, productivity is measured in dollars; the dollars position as reserve currency is artificially boosting Western productivity figure. In an earlier post, I pointed out how after the Plaza Accord the Japanese Yen went from 250 to 120 yen to the dollar in five years; that currency appreciation made the Japanese the most productive people on earth. Nothing had actually changed in Japanese manufacturing; the exchange rate simply more accurately reflected the value of that manufacturing. You have to comb through the raw data and look beyond the dollar figures.

  • J

    False parallel. Those who survived the Holocaust and emigrated, or returned to their homelands, found themselves in societies with great capacity for economic growth, booming populations and a still existent widespread trust in various idealist ideologies, both leftist and rightist, and resilient social and cultural structures.

    You’re completely missing my point, HH. I’m writing about the triumph of the human spirit in the face of some of the worst personal losses a person could possibly suffer. You’re talking about politics and money.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser

    The ideology that drives a man to focus all of his time on achievement, rigorous self-discipline, and savings is just as irrational and subjective as the ideology that encourages him to dedicate his life to hedonism, women, and contemplating his navel.

    Unfortunately for the West, we have many who preach the later and we have not seen the former in fashion, since the days of militant Calvinism.

    So what is wrong with Western Religion then ?

    A century ago South Korea was a basket case. It was colonized and reinvigorated by Japan, (but nobody wants to admit this), and after WW2 there was an economic boom.

    And now this :

    Korea has at present 60 thousand Protestant churches, 100 thousand ministers and 12 thousand overseas missionaries, ranking second after the USA.

    In the meantime it has also earned a name as a missionary country. Considering that there are only 2% Christians among the population of Asia, Christianity in Korea may be recognized as a remarkable success story with growth unparalleled in church history.

    The rise of Christianity in South Korea did not hamper its success. In fact, it boosted it.

    So what happened in the West. I doubt it has something to do with the recent encroachment of feminism on church dogmas.

    We are missing something.

    But then you mentioned Calvinism. And someone once said that whatever may be urged philosophically against the theological speculations of Calvin, the creed he taught makes the sort of man, that is willing to go through the fire and the mire … undaunted by the one, and undefiled by the other.

    So why has Calvinism become a spent force ?

    In proportion as the ministers seceded from the old Puritan godliness of life, and the old Calvinistic form of doctrine, they commonly became less earnest and less simple in their preaching, more speculative and less spiritual in the matter of their discourses, and dwelt more on the moral teachings of the New Testament, than on the great central truths of revelation.

    Natural theology frequently took the place which the great truths of the gospel ought to have held, and the sermons became more and more Christless. Corresponding results in the character and life, first of the preachers and then of the people, were only too plainly apparent.

    But this is a gender blog, and now I’m discussing this.

    All I can add to that discussion is that the Israelis tried to enforce gender neutrality on their kibbutzim, and these kibbutzim were self-contained, self-sufficient, and autonomous. This was praised far and wide. And what happened a few years later on follow-up ?

    A reversion back to gender-specific roles.

    Neither sex complained.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      But this is a gender blog, and now I’m discussing this.

      All I can add to that discussion is that the Israelis tried to enforce gender neutrality on their kibbutzim, and these kibbutzim were self-contained, self-sufficient, and autonomous. This was praised far and wide. And what happened a few years later on follow-up ?

      A reversion back to gender-specific roles.

      Neither sex complained.

      Thanks for looping back to the topic :)

      I find that example of kubbutzim so interesting – it was only recently that I learned that today the remaining ones are little more than tourist destinations.

  • Maggie

    “It’s also my call when I learn that they’re bored to tears by middle aged men complaining about their ex wives! ”

    And you’re not getting paid for this?

    You have the patience of a saint.

  • Passer_By

    @deti

    “You’re missing the point. The way most men in the ‘sphere see it, most women want a man for what he does; and what a man does means his occupation and the things he gives her. His status, his profession. It means his ability to provide babies, money, security and status. In other words, it is his outward actions which result in direct benefits TO HER. ”

    I don’t think most men in the ‘sphere see it that way. In fact, a lot of them are frustrated that it isn’t that way, right? I mean, wouldn’t hard working, high IQ betas have it made in that scenario? Maybe I’m misunderstaning you, but a lot of the complaints see to about women (especially young women) throwing themselves at low-life douchebags rather than hard working engineering and pre-med students.

    I guess, reframing your complaint, perhaps you are saying that that those same women later pair up with the betas solely for the financial benefits but never really feel for them and would dump them when the benefits cease. Yeah, ok, that’s been said about 1,000,000 times.

    “I like to take road trips. I like to watch old movies. I have a dry, sarcastic, punny sense of humor. I like to get up early while everyone else is asleep so I can do things I like. I like to read books over and over again (I have a few favorites). I like to see American landmarks and vacation to them. I like to live a homebody type of life. ”

    Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens . . .
    Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens . . .
    Brown paper packages tied up with strings . . .

  • Passer_By

    @plain jane
    “You say “women do this to men all the time – turnabout is fair play”. But this PARTICULAR woman has not done that to this PARTICULAR man. They don’t know each other from Adam. ”

    His point was that your outrage would mean a little more if bothered you (or other women) when women give men nuclear rejections.

    As to this particular rejection, it was awkward, but not hostile. He wasn’t saying she was gross or disgusting or even undesirable. Suppose some woman accepted a date with a guy and then later came up to him and said “Sorry, I didn’t realize you were a Republican. I don’t think it would be a good idea.” Would that be rude? Lame, maybe, but not really rude.

    Finally, as to this PARTICULAR GIRL, the fact that she got knocked up by a douche bag means that she spent her younger years rejecting the bookish types (as this PARTICULAR GUY undoubtedly was in his youth) and giving the best of her sexuality to the douche bags. So, in a sense, yes, she did reject this guy previously when she was at her most desirable. Expecting him now to clean up her mess after doing so is asking a lot.

  • Passer_By

    Also, before I go, just a few thoughts about my ex-wife.

    Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah. Blah blah blah, divorce theft, blah blah, hypergamy, blah blah, slut, blah blah, frigid, blah blah, bitch, blah blah blah blah, more hypergamy, blahblahblah.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Also, before I go, just a few thoughts about my ex-wife.

      LMAO!

      I couldn’t help but pick out the word frigid…

      I would not expect a man to continue loving a woman who was frigid or refused sex. If “making love” is off the table voluntarily, I don’t think love can survive.

  • Esau

    Susan: “Men doing men’s work is sexy. Men doing women’s work is not sexy. “

    Very straightforward! When you put it this way, it’s hard to see why there should be any misunderstanding.

    But, first, curious for your reaction to this, which does seem to reference a scientific study:

    http://goodmenproject.com/noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz/men-who-do-chores-are-happier/

    (NB: posting this link does not constitute endorsement of the sentiments therein, by this station or its management.)

    Now, back to Susan’s statement. Unless one simply appeals purely to tradition — though you’d have to pick the era and locale — it’s not always easy to separate men’s work from women’s work with 100% accuracy. Men cook outside with primitive tools, women cook inside with modern appliances; men cut grasses short, women plant and trim flowers; men paint, women polish. Is there a real underlying principle that will always distinguish men’s from women’s work around a house? or is there a substantial component that’s just the custom of that time and place? In the latter case, it seems like the imperative would read “to be a man, and hence to be sexy, is to do what all the other men are doing” — not that this is necessarily a bad view (!), just pointing out that the definition of “men’s work” doesn’t always rest on an absolute, never-changing foundation (or, do you think it does?).

    Meanwhile, what should we think about all those women — as reported in Lord only knows how many magazine pieces — who report that their number one complaint is that their spouse doesn’t do enough/his share of the housework? I really don’t think they’re all just sh*t-testing, that’s just my feeling. But, do you think the women who say that would actually be less happy, and admire their husbands less, if they got what they asked for? Don’t they really know their own minds? Or are they likely complaining about something else indirectly/in disguise?

    There’s also a very practical question here, which I think would be enlightening even to the target audience to contemplate. If a man’s wife asks him, straight up and sincerely, “Ward, I appreciate that you’re off making a living for us, but the fact is that I could really use some more help around the house”, then what is the Emily Post-approved way for him to say “June, I’d love to help out more but I’m afraid that if I pick up that mop once a week then I’ll become less sexy in your sparkling eyes”? Instead of spending an hour doing the mopping himself, maybe should he work an extra hour overtime at the office and use the proceeds to hire a maid for an hour? I’m curious for the opinions of the ladies here, married or otherwise.

  • Desiderius

    deti,

    “We want to be wanted and liked and loved for WHO WE ARE”

    And women want men who care about something other than their own wants.

    Goes both ways.

  • http://ampontan.wordpress.com/ Ampontan

    “We are likely to see the world become more conservative (in an Asian sense) on matters of sexual relations (among other things)”

    Then why is it that East Asians — the Chinese and Koreans in particular — have become less conservative on matters of sexual relations? The Japanese never really have been.

    The arguments about the growing Chinese presence in the world overlooks several factors.

    1. They have demographic problems too.

    2. For everyone with an income of $25,000, someone else is living in a cave (literally)

    3. They have many ethnic minorities inside the country that detest the Han majority and don’t want to be a part of China.

    4. More important still, it can be argued that the country is in a pre-revolutionary state. The oligarchy is getting fabulously wealthy through its connections and stashing money overseas. Meanwhile, there were roughly 180,000 serious public disturbances nationwide last year. An average of 500 a day. One little-reported example is the people of a town who wanted to demonstrate against a new paper mill because of pollution concerns (the country is filthy with it). The city refused their demonstration application. They demonstrated anyway, overturning police cars, breaking into government offices, and stripping the mayor naked on a city street and forcing him to wear a demonstration shirt.

    5. Don’t have time to look for the link, but here’s another point. There are three hundred million people in China whose lives are a relative mirror image of those in the US — rich, poor, and in between, professors and factory workers. The other one billion are peasants.

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    if we’d had different people in charge the maps would show a smoking crater next to Pakistan

    What why? What did India do to the US? :(

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @deti

    You wrote :

    “You’re missing the point. The way most men in the ‘sphere see it, most women want a man for what he does; and what a man does means his occupation and the things he gives her. His status, his profession. It means his ability to provide babies, money, security and status. In other words, it is his outward actions which result in direct benefits TO HER. ”

    And then there is this :

    I’ve been having a lot of affairs with married women. More than I’d care to admit. To get them I’m just a really good listener. To me I’m intrigued by some of these beautiful wives in this town with the worlds biggest ring. I used to think the size of their rings meant they were happy and in love.

    So I started asking questions and listening. What I found was these are women who realize that ever after is a fucking long time… with the same person.

    They have the house, the kids, the cars, but I learned a beautiful woman’s greatest fear is becoming invisible. And these ain’t fat housewives that let themselves go either. I’m talking from 27 to 38, yoga-mats-and-pilates women.

    It’s not as simple as it looks. Sure some are sluts no questions about that. But others just reach a point. The greatest thing I learned just being a successful alpha isn’t good enough to keep your woman.

    They all have this minimum level of attention, love, and sex needed from you to keep them. If you drop below that level she’ll find it from someone else. This made me open my eyes to my own relationship and not taking anything for granted or think I got it in the bag.

    But then again I’ve never been with the same woman for over a year so what the fuck do I know.

    And who wrote this you may ask ?

    Roosh.

    And then Heartiste said this :

    I’ll say it again: Never before in modern American history has there been a time when Game was as effective, or as necessary, as right now. Game is no longer just a matter of getting your weekend jollies at the clubs; now it’s a lifestyle. For some, it’s survival of the soul.

    Can you explain this ?

    No.

    Am I mocking you then ?

    No.

    Why not call a spade, a spade deti ?

    And what is that spade deti ?

    SNAFU.

    Ultimately, there are no answers to this deti.

    There’s only questions.

    And maybe we’ll get an answer if the right questions are asked.

    We never ask the right questions.

    SNAFU.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Marellus
    One could argue that religion in the West is merely returning to its roots. Western Civilization dates from roughly 500 AD (I know there are some who try to claim ancient Greece and Rome, but in reality it is not until the sack of Rome by barbarians that the embryo of the West is formed) so the West has existed for roughly 1500 years, but only in the last 800 years has it been able to effectively defend itself and only in the last 500 years has it been globally dominant; what happened, the answer is the Protestant Reformation. If you have ever read Machiavelli’s masterpiece “A History of Florence”, you can see that rather than the renaissance being a rebirth of culture, it was a time of cultural decadence that should have marked the end of Western civilization. Much like our own day, the renaissance was a time of loose morals (think indulgences), stagnate politics (think the Medici), institutional barriers to discovery (think Galileo) and capital consumption (renaissance era palaces and art are pretty, but they cost a lot to produced and did not generate profits). Enter John Calvin with his message of self-discipline, reason, and self-denial; how he got any converts, I don’t know, but it caught on like wildfire. It was the militant Calvinist who introduced the ideas of the godliness of work, equality of all men before the law, and the godliness of capital accumulation. They also brought reason to the forefront of men’s minds. It was John Calvin who said,” if a man should abandon evidence for the work of his own mind then he will inevitably abandoned God for an idol of his own imagination”; few in the West today see that you cannot have Enlightenment without first having a Reformation. Most importantly, the militant Calvinist threw the bums out; they dissolved the monasteries and ecclesiastical institutions. Prior to the Reformation, between 25% and55% of national income in Europe saw its way into the hand of professional beggars (the Church); they put end to that and put the capital and asset (as well as the people to work). Today , European nations spend roughly the same to slight more on modern beggars. Over the last 400 years and particularly over the last 150 there has been a major change of view among Westerners. Firstly, there has been a great secularization of the views of the major camps. Do you see any difference between “Social Justice” teaching and “Catholic Social Teaching” other than its rejection of hierarchy? What is the difference between Calvin’s doctrine of Election and Eugenics/ Genetic Determinisms, except one is spiritual and individual, while other is biological and collective? Both side’s doctrines are ridiculous and dangerous in there secular forms. Among professing Protestants the change has been even greater; when was the last time you heard them speak of election? It is all about “Free Grace”; no need to be disciplined and moral, just love Jesus and you are going to heaven; I often remark that there is not a single mainstream preacher in America today that would not have been hanged for heresy in the time of John Calvin. Calvinism produced in the West a middle class outlook which we could keep; it required too many sacrifices and too much work. So, we have returned to the Catholic idea the poverty is piety, but with the new idea that others pay the bills of the pious. We embrace the old idea the God loves the poor, with the new caveat, so should the rich with their money. We affirm the old feudal idea that everyman should be guaranteed proper status in society, but with the new idea they should not have to take orders from above as a part of that guarantee. Again we accept St. Teresa of Avila belief that “life on earth is like a night in a cheap motel”, but add that the state must make it a nice motel. So, we are just getting back to our root, but we should not expect to keep what was built up on completely different foundations.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser

    Mein Gott !!!!!!!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Ted D:

    I’m saying no foreign medical facilities. I have no desire to catch some funky bacterial infection because of their bad cleaning habits

    While I understand your concern for cleanliness, I think that you also do not know what you are talking about with respect to foreign medical facilities. Indian hospitals are kept just as sanitary as U.S. hospitals, if not more so. Furthermore, more and more people are traveling to India for life-saving surgeries that would otherwise bankrupt them in the U.S., receiving the same standard of medical care at a fraction of the cost.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=2587670&page=1#.UFKl66RYswE

    http://www.webmd.com/healthy-beauty/news/20061018/more-americans-seeking-surgery-abroad

    http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/dyer/dyer-resident-traveling-to-india-for-surgery-saved-money-relieved/article_d40e8fa0-6b57-5bed-8c22-9c33644ca4ab.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wasn’t there a study that showed a huge number of hospital infections in the US occur because doctors (including surgeons!) don’t wash their hands?

  • SayWhaat

    This is completely OT, but I wanted to provide an update on my dog. He passed this morning naturally in his sleep. He was so loving and mischievous, but at 13 years he lived a full life. I will miss him greatly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      I’m so sorry your doggie died. Thank heaven you were able to spend time with him at the end. His passing in his sleep is so far preferable to putting him down that I’m glad it happened that way.

      xoxo

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’m saying no foreign medical facilities. I have no desire to catch some funky bacterial infection because of their bad cleaning habits.

    I forgot to address this one. Ted you are drinking the Kool Aid in this coming from the third world I can tell you that you don’t have the best healthcare in fact you might be getting less for your money than I ever did back in the country and my friends pregnancies were tended a lot better than here with medical coverage I’m planning to get some procedures done when I’m visiting back home because the service was better, same quality, the doctors are not terrified of getting sued so they are more open and is a lot cheaper. Just do some research about “Health Tourism” before you refuse it completely, one never knows, YMMV.

    @SayWhaat
    Sorry to hear about your dog, my condolences. :(

  • Plain Jane

    “Interesting conversation was going on over at Herr-teest. Turns out a lot of guys who become kitchen bitches are OCD and they shack up with slob like women who contribute more to the mess than they can clean up, and then bitch about the men who pick up after them for not doing it right.”

    Why would a slob complain about the cleaning not being done right? A true slob wouldn’t have sensory for that, wouldn’t even notice. Usually its the neat freaks and OCD cleaning fanatics who nag over that stuff.

  • J

    Oh Say Whaat, I am so sorry. It’s tough to lose a dog, epecially one you’ve had since you were a kid. At least he went peacefully; that can be sort of a comfort. I hope this goes as easily for you as it can.

  • Plain Jane

    SayWhaat, “While I understand your concern for cleanliness, I think that you also do not know what you are talking about with respect to foreign medical facilities. Indian hospitals are kept just as sanitary as U.S. hospitals”

    Ted D is probably envisioning the government and charity run hospitals. Don’t worry Ted D, you’d be going the state of the art rich people ones.

  • J

    I know someone who had Lasik in Israel for a third of the cost she’d have paid locally. She and her husband had a wonderful vacation on top of it.

  • Lokland

    This debate is ridiculous.
    Love is conditional. All of it. Even parent to child.

    To suggest that male love is unconditional is both supplicating and pathetic.

    ‘I’ll love you forever and ever no matter what happens’ is a load of supplicating shit.

    I have a list of dealbreakers ranging from “if you hit the kids even once we’re getting divorced, I’m taking you to court and I will crucify you” to “I don’t dig that piercing in your ear, don’t wear it please” (long story but ear piercings invoke an involuntary puking response in me).
    The same could be said if she gained 100 pounds, sat on the couch and did sweet fuck all or any other number of things.

    I would leave and I would not love her. All she has to do is not fuck it up and shes good.

    However, these conditions for love are well defined and nearly unchanging.

    If the argument was made that the conditionals women place on love are mysterious, foreign and hard to identify I would think this argument much better.

    In general do to communication differences I think a lot of men are unaware of what the conditions are that will be considered unacceptable. This is probably what scares most dudes the most. ‘Not an OMG I could fuck up’ but ‘OMG how do I know if this is a fuck up?’

    @Susan

    You’ve claimed a few times that the only loves that are unconditional are god to people and parent to child. The god issue isn’t one I’ll concern myself with.

    Simple question. If your son/daughter tried to kill you, murdered his/her children or was a psychopath that hurt others would you still love them?

    PS I realize thats harsh and I want to say that I genuinely hope and expect that it never will occur. I merely want to point out the conditionality of parent to child love.
    My intent is neither to offend or scare you, I’m sorry if that occured.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      No worries, I’m not offended or scared, although it is a horrific thing to think about.

      Simple question. If your son/daughter tried to kill you, murdered his/her children or was a psychopath that hurt others would you still love them?

      I’ve actually thought about this a lot, because I’ve been aware in cases of serial killers and other psychopaths that their mothers stood by them. I don’t really understand it in one way, but at another level I do.

      I think I would separate completely from my child if they did such things. But the love in my heart would not die – there would always be grief. Perhaps because I made that child – I would feel culpable for the outcome. I can imagine committing suicide to stop these feelings, but I can not imagine the love ever dying.

      I believe that this is the nature of the bond between parent and child (it does not necessarily work the same way for children). It doesn’t always function – there are plenty of parents who harm their own children. But this is my experience.

      The love I have for my husband is of a very different sort, and it would not survive his being a monster.

  • JutR

    SayWhaat, I hear you. Passing in his sleep was a small blessing, but the sadness of the loss is still there.

    Best wishes to you, and remember him fondly, and bring your love into another dogs life when you are ready.

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona, SayWhaat

    Definitely. Some of the third world countries have excellent heath systems (with India being one of the top), and health problems are more due to malnutrition, lack of access in rural areas, lack of money to pay for even cheap healthcare, etc., not due to bad hospitals.

  • Plain Jane

    “Women, it seems, can grow dissatisfied with a man and change their behavior (negatively) but they tend not to go him directly and say “Here’s what you’re doing wrong that is making me unhappy.”

    In my case I didn’t articulate it because I didn’t know how to do so in a way that he would understand and not get angry. He took a lot of things the wrong way. Also, I didn’t want to seem to vulnerable or clingy. And also at the time he did or said those things I was often at a loss of what even to feel, what to speak of say. They put me in a temporary state of confusion, then I’d forget them, but then a few weeks or months later something would trigger the memory/feelings and I’d flip out.

    I think people do a lot of stuffing down of emotions in relationships in order not to rock the boat or just to process them internally before laying it all out on the table. A lot gets stuffed then later triggers happen and the shit hits the fan.

    We actually did a weekend motivational seminar retreat together where some good communication skills were taught and did ok for a few months after that.

    Ted D is not harsh. He comes off as a big teddy bear to me. However he got it wrong that I think people are defined by their jobs. I’ve worked jobs that I did not identify with at all, HOWEVER they did not conflict with my ethics and values, they were just neutral. I actually turned job offers down because they conflicted with my values and looked for neutral ones.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    This is completely OT, but I wanted to provide an update on my dog. He passed this morning naturally in his sleep. He was so loving and mischievous, but at 13 years he lived a full life. I will miss him greatly.

    :( It’s good that he passed away peacefully after such a fulfilling life, but it’s still sad when it ends. Take it easy.

  • Desiderius

    SayWhaat,

    Talk about unconditional love! No doubt he appreciated the love you gave him in return.

    I’d echo JutR’s sentiments.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Maybe some day I’ll have the opportunity to engage in the beautiful give and take that Susan has described in her post.

    In the mean time I’ll keep attempting to push my boobs out, bruise my toes in high heels, and increasingly soften up my career title (teacher w/ HS diploma instead of professor w/ PhD) to be given a chance. It has been working a little bit. I need to make the workplace story more plausible. :)

  • Plain Jane

    HERR KAISER,

    “what is clear is that the genesis of Western decline is to be found in its own values and ideologies”

    > Bingo! I made this argument over at the other thread, but it goes deeper and has many layers and can be traced back hundreds of years. I do disagree though that we will return to Patriarchy. Our future will not be Patriarchal nor Matriarchal but something better than either. Unlike many I see a lot of positive transformation taking place and think our future is bright. And it does have to do with Asian influence, but not in an economic sense.

    SUSAN,

    You mentioned how the show Sopranos does a great job of portraying a ruthless killer in an empathetic light. Do you think its a form of brainwashing to get us accustomed to accepting that type of behaviour? Since the topic veers toward DIVORCE my parents said that decades ago TV shows and movies started to portray divorcing parents explaining to their children that “sometimes people fall out of love, and that is what happened to mommy and daddy, though that doesn’t mean we don’t care for each other anymore”.

    And we are decades later and that is the most common trope that is dished out about divorce. Coincidence?

    SAY WHAAT,

    “Ugh. Sorry that happened to you. And if she was able to be guilt-tripped into being in a relationship, well, that makes me worry about her, too.”

    > Well, she seems to be happy. He got her pregnant on purpose so she would feel obliged to marry him, which she did. It was evident (from Facebook) that in the beginning she wasn’t as into him as he was her, but he eventually grew on her, and in her belly, and she’s madly in love with him now).

    M3,

    “Wife doesn’t bother dressing up in heels and makeup everyday”

    > Heels? When at home? Don’t most people go barefoot inside their home? I’ve heard of house slippers but never house heels.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Plain Jane

      You mentioned how the show Sopranos does a great job of portraying a ruthless killer in an empathetic light. Do you think its a form of brainwashing to get us accustomed to accepting that type of behaviour?

      I wouldn’t use the word brainwashing, because it ascribes motives that I don’t think are there. I don’t believe there is a conspiracy. However, I do think that this kind of moral equivalency does alter the way people think. It reduces shame for the most horrific behaviors. So yes, we are being manipulated by the storyteller, and this probably changes us a little bit, even temporarily.

      Sex and the City was also tremendously influential with young women, and not in a good way.

      Popular culture is very powerful.

  • Emily

    Passer_By (604),

    LOL! There’s also the cock-carousel, the 20%, and the “what is an alpha?” discussion. ;)

  • Emily

    Royale,

    I don’t think you need to lie about your PhD. There are tons of guys who like smart girls. It’s only a problem if you beat people over the head with it. Adopting a more feminine style is probably all you really need in order to “soften” your image.

    I think Escoffier dumped his Grace Kelly lookalike girlfriend because she was too dumb, and Zach also dumped his last girlfriend because she lacked “intellectual curiosity”. There’s a demand for smart girls. It’s the snootiness that many smart girls have, rather than the intelligence itself, that often turns guys off.

  • Höllenhund

    It won’t exist at all, which may be what you’re advocating. I learned the hard way that allowing a free for all here results in chaos of a most unpleasant sort. Civilization requires rules of order.

    That’s a given. But, again, to declare a whole set of issues off-limits because they’re examined by a bunch of bloggers you decided to start a silly online feud with, is intellectually dishonest and stifles debate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But, again, to declare a whole set of issues off-limits because they’re examined by a bunch of bloggers you decided to start a silly online feud with, is intellectually dishonest and stifles debate.

      Ugh, I’d love to ignore this, but will respond to clarify to anyone reading here.

      First, it’s not the issue that is off limits. I am happy to discuss the different ways that men and women love each other, what each sex wants from the other, how we’re wired differently, etc. I am not happy to discuss how Rollo thinks that women are incapable of loving as completely as men are. See the difference? I don’t care to provide a forum for Rollo’s sociopathy (and this is not hyperbole).

      Second, I did not start any online feuds. Dalrockgate began when one of his Flying Monkeys (was it you?) reported a comment from me to Doug1 in the middle of a very long comment thread. Dalrock wrote a snide and nasty post without asking me what I meant – he was clearly spoiling for a fight. (And he couldn’t even demonstrate the frivolous divorce is not overblown in the manosphere.

      “It is a tale told by an idiot, all noise and fury, signifying nothing.”

      Rollo too has been a brute. I am not interested in feuding, or in having any contact whatsoever!

      I WANT A OLLOLOLOR AND LACKROD FREE LIFE!

      Is that so much to ask? Just leave me alone and let me do my own thing!

      This all happened because HUS got cited in the Atlantic article for an idea (the apex fallacy) that originated in the manosphere. That produced massive envy and resentment. Too bad.

  • Sai

    @INTJ
    Oh! No, not India, India lives long and prospers while AFGHANISTAN becomes the smoking crater next to Pakistan. I still remember the hotel attack, and wonder if India’s secret service is working right now on an epic plot to crush some terrorists.

    @HerrKaiser
    Calvin always deserves respect, but wasn’t part of his doctrine predestination? Maybe people today think God’s already chosen the number, so if they’re not going to make it anyway they may as well try to have some fun.
    (and it has been a LONG time since I read or discussed anything about Calvin, so I could be horribly wrong, and if I am I apologize in advance and ask to be corrected)

    @SayWhaat
    13 years must have been pretty good times… it’s good to know the transition was peaceful.
    :(

  • Höllenhund

    I’m writing about the triumph of the human spirit in the face of some of the worst personal losses a person could possibly suffer. You’re talking about politics and money.

    One’s ability to overcome personal loss is largely dependent on the future perspectives one sees. So yes, the political, cultural and economic environment matters a lot.

  • Höllenhund

    And women want men who care about something other than their own wants.

    Yup. That explains why women throw themselves all the time at selfless men who view their own needs and desires as of secondary importance.

    Oh wait…

  • Höllenhund

    This all happened because HUS got cited in the Atlantic article for an idea (the apex fallacy) that originated in the manosphere. That produced massive envy and resentment.

    No. Rightful opposition was generated because you gave further media exposure to a feminist who’s doing everything in her power to perpetuate the dysfunctional current SMP and glorify childless spinsterhood. Plus you called her “gorgeous”, even though the magazine cover proved that she obviously isn’t, thus showing that you consider yourself justified in deciding what men find attractive.

    grerp.blogspot.hu/2011/10/piece-of-advice-97-look-farther-into.html

    I am happy to discuss the different ways that men and women love each other, what each sex wants from the other, how we’re wired differently

    It’s impossible to do that without discussing certain aspects of those differences that cut too close to the bone for many young women, or for young men for that matter (the latter is often palpable on Rollo’s blog). You know that. It doesn’t matter one bit whether these differences are presented by Rollo or not. They could be presented by the cutest betaboy dressed as a bunny, in the most diplomatic and inoffensive ways possible, and they would still cut too close to the bone.

    Second, I did not start any online feuds

    Oh yes you did.

    hookingupsmart.com/2009/10/02/hookinguprealities/stop-putting-out-for-alpha-asshats/

    If this doesn’t constitute spoiling for a fight, I don’t know what does.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hollenhund

      Very interesting response.

      you gave further media exposure to a feminist who’s doing everything in her power to perpetuate the dysfunctional current SMP and glorify childless spinsterhood.

      I like Kate Bolick. I think she’s taking responsibility for her own life, including past mistakes, and doing some intelligent planning for the second half of it. There are going to be more Kate Bolicks in this generation. The sex ratio is too lopsided for assortative mating. Women are going to need alternatives to marriage, and Kate Bolick is at the forefront of that trend. When I met her she felt it was anything but glorious, but a book deal and TV show later, I imagine she feels differently. Good for her. Smart woman.

      Plus you called her “gorgeous”, even though the magazine cover proved that she obviously isn’t, thus showing that you consider yourself justified in deciding what men find attractive.

      I find her gorgeous. I’m allowed to have my own standards for beauty, and by the way, women are not exactly shielded from understanding what men find attractive. I don’t tell men what to find attractive, but I understand reality. For the record, several males left comments saying they would hit it early and often, and no fewer than three male readers wrote to me to request an introduction to her.

      It’s impossible to do that without discussing certain aspects of those differences that cut too close to the bone for many young women

      I have no problem with difficult truths. I have a problem with difficult lies.

      hookingupsmart.com/2009/10/02/hookinguprealities/stop-putting-out-for-alpha-asshats/

      If this doesn’t constitute spoiling for a fight, I don’t know what does.

      I stand by every aspect of that post. Women should indeed stop putting out for alpha asshats. Furthermore, I did not even know a manosphere existed then. My post was about Tucker Max. Roissy just happened to be another blogger who’d also written about him. In any case, no apologies.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”Wasn’t there a study that showed a huge number of hospital infections in the US occur because doctors (including surgeons!) don’t wash their hands?”

    Yes. See Mark Graban on “National patient safety awareness week”

    http://www.leanblog.org/2012/03/thoughts-on-national-patient-safety-awareness-week/

  • Herb

    @Passer By

    Finally, as to this PARTICULAR GIRL, the fact that she got knocked up by a douche bag means that she spent her younger years rejecting the bookish types (as this PARTICULAR GUY undoubtedly was in his youth) and giving the best of her sexuality to the douche bags. So, in a sense, yes, she did reject this guy previously when she was at her most desirable. Expecting him now to clean up her mess after doing so is asking a lot.

    Thank you for summing up why I don’t date single mothers: if I wasn’t good enough to have fun how am I good enough to take the responsibility for said fun.

  • Höllenhund

    There are going to be more Kate Bolicks in this generation. The sex ratio is too lopsided for assortative mating. Women are going to need alternatives to marriage, and Kate Bolick is at the forefront of that trend.

    Doesn’t this kind of go against the whole idea of women needing men? Bolick promotes gender apartheid and the notion that men are completely optional. Plus she consciosusly ignores the fact that the lopsided sex ratio you referred to is the consequence of long-term and deliberate feminist policies.

    The mainstream media is dominated by feminists, and people who support them, and suck up to them, or avoid angering them. Yet Bolick is getting her own TV show and a book deal. Doesn’t that ring any bells?

    I have no problem with difficult truths. I have a problem with difficult lies.

    It’s not possible to promote debate when you declare in advance certain ideas to be lies that shall not be named.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Doesn’t this kind of go against the whole idea of women needing men?

      Women do need men, but if there aren’t enough* men to marry, some will have no choice but to go it alone.

      *Enough to qualify for assortative mating.

      she consciosusly ignores the fact that the lopsided sex ratio you referred to is the consequence of long-term and deliberate feminist policies.

      No she doesn’t, that’s how she begins the article. I perceived the article as mildly anti-feminist, and feminists initially viewed it the same way. At some point they took over the narrative, just as they did with Lena Dunham’s Girls. Now they are using Rosin’s book to promote the idea that women prefer hookup culture, which is demonstrably false, even in Rosin’s book.

      The fact that Kate Bolick has become famous and profited as a result does not make her evil, or even a feminist.

      It’s not possible to promote debate when you declare in advance certain ideas to be lies that shall not be named.

      Let me be very clear on this. I have stated this many times, but will again now.

      I believe in gender equity.

      No apologies. I reject any notion either sex is superior to the other. I acknowledge sex differences, and I believe in a meritocracy.

      This is at the core of who I am. I will not debate that, it’s a given here. I reject female supremacy as preached by feminists, and I reject male supremacy as preached by numerous ‘spherians, including you.

      If you don’t like it, go away. Those are the terms.

  • Abbot

    “There are going to be more Kate Bolicks in this generation”

    Who won’t even replace themselves via a child thus, per proper natural selection, dying off without another to a carry forward their views, diatribes and propaganda.

  • Herb

    @Sai

    Calvin always deserves respect, but wasn’t part of his doctrine predestination? Maybe people today think God’s already chosen the number, so if they’re not going to make it anyway they may as well try to have some fun.
    (and it has been a LONG time since I read or discussed anything about Calvin, so I could be horribly wrong, and if I am I apologize in advance and ask to be corrected)

    Ah, but the way to learn you’re predestined is to work in this life and see the outcome. The Lord will reward the elect for their work (and perhaps has only selected those who will work). The Protestant Work Ethic sees earthly reward for work as proof of selection.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Susan.

    I find that example of kubbutzim so interesting – it was only recently that I learned that today the remaining ones are little more than tourist destinations.

    As far as I recall, this happened in the 1960′s or early 70′s. I’ve tried finding a good link, but that proved difficult.

    And yes, I am derailing your thread, but in doing so I also elicited comments from Herb and HerrKaiser that were damn interesting. I neither read nor took their comments seriously.

    And I suspect that some other commenters can say the same.

    If I can get a top-down perspective of the SMP via such methods, I will do so. No matter how OT it might appear. It’s about the big picture.

    What is happening now on HUS is a bottom-up view of the SMP via the comments. The women are driving it. And I’ll admit that the women are the masters at this approach.

    They have an uncanny ability to describe personal scenarios that seems to be at odds with the big picture, and when the men try to rationalize it, the women become indignant.

    Then it’s the men that must resort to mudslinging to gain an advantage, and then the women start (rightfully) complaining about dirty laundry.

    And the men must then sling mud yet again.

    On and on. I swear you can set your watch by who is getting offended at who.

    There is no victory in such a case. None.

    It’s tiring.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      They have an uncanny ability to describe personal scenarios that seems to be at odds with the big picture, and when the men try to rationalize it, the women become indignant.

      Then the question is: Are the women lying or might we have the big picture wrong?

      I have provided several posts, exhaustively researched and analyzed, that prove the big picture in the manosphere is wrong.

      The 80/20 apex fallacy is bunk.

      The “all women are sluts” is bunk.

      All women want alpha? Bunk.

      Premarital sex destroys marital bonding? Bunk.

      I could literally go on and list another hundred items. If men want to fool themselves and follow advice that amounts to a massive DLV (yes, you heard that right), that’s no concern of mine. But I won’t allow the spreading of that misinformation here.

      Hooking Up Smart: Where Dirty Lies Perish

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Herb

    Ah, but the way to learn you’re predestined is to work in this life and see the outcome. The Lord will reward the elect for their work (and perhaps has only selected those who will work). The Protestant Work Ethic sees earthly reward for work as proof of selection.

    It’s the age old question isn’t it ?

    How do you organize a mass of people into doing something, that they will not like to do ?

    And history have shown four methods by which this done.

    1) Slavery.
    2) Religion.
    3) Legislation.
    4) Money.

    And sometimes it’s a mix and match of the four.

    What is happening now then ?

    It really does seem as if the men are headed for a kind of slavery, via religion, legislation, and money … no matter how justified the women are in supporting this.

    So what will happen then ?

    It’s already happening now isn’t it ? MGTOW, foreign brides, and later I suspect, a mass emigration of unmarried men to greener pastures.

  • Escoffier

    You know, sometimes I’m on the fence about whether certain commenters have a point, or whether they are off in Cloudcookooland, and then I read things like “Bolick promotes gender apartheid” and everything gets cleared up.

  • Escoffier

    Emily:

    No, the Grace Kelly girl was my graduate school GF, I didn’t break up with her because she was dumb (she was very smart) but because she was crazy. And, actually, that’s not fair, she wasn’t crazy, but we were crazy together, it was a bad dynamic.

    I broke up with my college GF because she was too dumb. She looked more like Sara Rue.

  • Ramble

    The end result of this disastrous social experiment is a masculinized female population and a feminized male population.

    This reminded me of a comment from another blog on what (many) inner city teachers are taught in some Ed Classes.

    From a teacher:

    I was required to take an entire separate class on this topic, so I can clear all this up for you.
    1. We need to include names, foods and other cultural markers from a wide spectrum of backgrounds (but mostly black, Hispanic and to a lesser degree Arabic).
    2. But NOT IN STEREOTYPICAL CONTEXTS<– I wrote this in capital letter because it's important. You are encouraged to stand up and chant "Stereotypes hurt tykes" 60 or 80 times.

    So let's try a few examples. If you are writing a chemistry word problem, you need to make the scientist have a name like Darnell or Jose or Ahmed (unless he's dealing with explosives- in that case, under no circumstance should you name him Ahmed). However, if the chemistry problem is about dealing with cleaning solutions, do not, I repeat- DO NOT- name the cleaning lady Maria. In fact, it shouldn't be a cleaning lady at all, but a cleaning man named John. Similarly, you absolutely should have kids count tacos instead of sandwiches in an arithmetic problem, but the problem should feature Stephanie, not Yesenia. And then, in the next math problem, have Miguel eat something non-stereotypical for a Miguel- like pizza.

    Hope this helps, and remember: Stereotypes hurt tykes!
    The poet who came up with this gets paid 6 figures and wears neon bright suits. She misspelled "stereotypes".

    If there is a norm in society, you must subvert it. If you don’t get that, then you don’t get it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @RAmble

      OMG, I wish I could hit the eject button on the teacher’s union.

      I saw an article in Salon claiming Breaking Bad is a white supremacist show.

  • Escoffier

    Re: parents and unconditional love.

    So, one of my grad school professors had a really babelicious daughter who was a STEM genius and worked in some kind of infectious disease lab. She married a dude and two months later he was dead.

    Turns out she was having an affair with her boss and the medical examiners found some rare poison in hubby’s body that, funny thing, happened to be one of the ones she worked with in her lab. She went on trial and was eventually convicted.

    Her parents maintain her innocence to this day and they paid for her (very expensive) legal defense. Nobody else in their circle believes she was innocent, of course, the evidence was pretty damning but the prof is a good guy so we just sort of nodded and patted him on the back. What can you do?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh