Promiscuity is an endlessly fascinating topic, at least around here. Who is promiscuous? Why are they? Are there any men who don’t want to be promiscuous? Are there many women who enjoy promiscuity? Do people switch back and forth between promiscuous and chaste lifestyles? Do promiscuous people want to get with other promiscuous people? How does male promiscuity differ from female promiscuity? Are promiscuous people better looking?
The controversy is predictable and constant, depending on who’s speaking. Female virgins, male virgins, sluts, manwhores, and everyone in between has their view of what promiscuity is and how it affects themselves and others’ perceptions of them.
This subject has been studied very thoroughly. Primarily, the debate is between Genetic Theory (nature) and Social Theory (nurture). The jury’s still out – both appear to play a large role – but there have been many interesting findings along the way.
In a recent post I introduced the Sociosexuality Orientation Index. Nine questions generate an SOI score that reliably and validly predicts sexual behavior and number of partners.
1. Number of sexual partners in the past year
2. Number of sexual partners in the next 5 years
3. Number of one time sexual partners
4. Number of partners used condom with
5. Number of times fantasized about someone other than partner
6. Sex without love is OK
7. Enjoy casual sex with different partners
8. Need to be attached to partner to enjoy sex (reversed)
People vary on a spectrum of restricted (long-term mating strategy) to unrestricted (short-term mating strategy). The results are equally valid for males and females.
Who is promiscuous?
1. “While men in general are more unrestricted in sociosexual orientation than women, the variance within each sex is much greater than variance between the sexes.”
2. “Women in the top female quintile of the SOI were nearly as elevated in their relevant sexual experiences as men in the top male quintile, even though the 80th female percentile was equivalent to only the 39th male percentile.”
(IOW, there are similar numbers of very unrestricted men and women.)
What do unrestricted people do?
3. They:
- engage in sex at an earlier point in their relationships
- engage in sex with more than one partner at a time
- be involved in sexual relationships characterized by less investment, commitment, love, and dependency.
How is sociosexual orientation acquired?
7.
- 49% of sociosexual orientation is heritable, i.e. determined by genes.
- 2% is attributable to shared environment, i.e. parenting.
- 47% is attributable to unshared environment, e.g. peer pressure, popular culture.
- 2% is attributable to the respondent’s age, so it appears that sociosexual orientation changes very slightly over the life course.
Is it static or variable?
8. “Sociosexual orientation (just like all other personality traits) is a relatively stable trait of individuals over the life course; in other words, people are either sociosexually restricted or unrestricted most of their lives.“
9. “In a study of over 14,000 people in over 48 countries, researchers found the SOI to be reliable and predictive across a wide range of cultures and populations. Furthermore:
Sex differences in sociosexuality were significantly larger when reproductive environments were demanding but were reduced to more moderate levels in cultures with more political and economic gender equality.
Sex ratios also predict sociosexuality. Nations with a low ratio of men to women had higher SOI scores. The U.S. is pretty much smack in the middle.”
Are people with unrestricted sexuality more attractive?
10. “Although men had trouble knowing which women were unrestricted, they preferred those female faces. Unrestricted female composite faces were seen as more attractive than restricted female composites by both sexes, suggesting that attractive women’s unrestricted scores may be the result of more attractive women having greater sexual opportunities and thus developing a less restricted outlook.”
11. ”Self-perceived attractiveness was a significant positive predictor of SOI score. This finding is consistent with the hypothesis that women’s mating strategy is facultatively linked to their self-perceived mate value: Women who perceive themselves as more attractive score higher on the SOI scale. Behaving in a sociosexually unrestricted manner may lead to self-perceptions of attractiveness.“
12. “In contrast to men judging female faces, women consistently preferred the restricted male faces. Despite having no particular preference between the unrestricted and restricted male composites for short-term relationships, women significantly preferred the restricted males for long-term relationships.
13. Furthermore, these patterns of results do not appear to be due to differences in theinherent attractiveness of the faces (as judged by male observers); indeed, contrary to expectation, any greater symmetry which may have existed in the real faces did not translate into greater attractiveness. This suggests that when seeking a partner, women may be attracted to males more likely to engage in long-term relationships, and, furthermore, that women have been subject to stronger selection in this regard than men (who have potentially more to gain from short-term matings).”
14. “The link between sociosexuality and perceived masculinity in male composites [shows] that more masculine looking males report more sexual partners and suggests that unrestricted sociosexuality may be related to increased testosterone levels. Testosterone is thought to increase facial masculinity and may be associated with less investment in relationships, as indexed by time men spent with their partner.
Furthermore, men and women perceive more masculine male faces as being poorer parents and possessing less of the characteristics important in a long-term partner.”
How does sociosexuality orientation influence what women want?
15. “For women only, sociosexual orientation was related to preferences with respect to sexual experience in a potential date or mate. Specifically, women with an unrestricted orientation to sex (i.e., those who have more positive attitudes toward casual, uncommitted sexual activity) gave higher desirability ratings to moderate or considerable sexual experience in a partner than did women with a restricted sociosexual orientation.
Conversely, the restricted women rated chastity in a partner as more desirable than did unrestricted women. Women with extensive sexual experience (one dimension tapped by the SOI) should be more willing to consider a sexually experienced person as a partner. More specifically, they would be unlikely to have negative impressions of a sexually active (hence, similar) other), would assume that they (and others like them) are “uniquely invulnerable” to sexually transmitted diseases (Brehm, 1992), and may be guided by a specific, adaptive mating strategy.”
How does sociosexuality orientation influence what men want?
16. Preferences of the Lady Wooers:
The results of the study indicate that sociosexuality influences male perception of female breast attractiveness and confirm that accentuation of female-specific physical traits produces a stronger response in unrestricted than in restricted men.
Translation: Guys who want to shag around prefer bigger tits.
Obviously, you can’t use the word tits in a scientific article so you’d have to say ‘Gentleman who want to woo more ladies prefer larger hooters’.
And they say science isn’t relevant to the man in the street.
Bottom line:
Promiscuous people are born and made. They don’t change. They cheat and get divorced more. Women don’t like the faces of unrestricted guys. Unrestricted men like big boobs.
Best way to spot one in the wild? Find a way to ask questions 6 – 8.
Sources:
https://genepi.qimr.edu.au/contents/p/staff/CV262Bailey_UQ_Copy.pdf
http://seis.bris.ac.uk/~psapc/pdfs/Clark%282004%29.pdf
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/the-50-0-50-rule-in-action-sociosexual-orientation-and-ris
http://www.dur.ac.uk/l.g.boothroyd/papers/boothroyd_2008_soi.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16201459
http://mindhacks.com/2011/10/09/preferences-of-the-lady-wooers/
{ 211 comments… read them below or add one }
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I’m having trouble figuring out when you are quoting (and what source you are quoting), and when it’s you. Is the line about prefering big tits yours? Or from a source?
I haven’t noticed that men prefer big tits any less in a long term mate (I certainly haven’t). In fact, the general theory is that smaller titted girls within any racial group or ethnic group tend to be hornier (hard to make such comparisons accross racial groups, since some racial and ethnic groups just tend to have bigger boobs), so you are better off going for them for the quickie.
On the other hand, there is the notion that body matters more than face for the short term, whereas face matters more for the long term. So, maybe that’s where it come from.
@ Passer By
The big tits bit is from the mindhacks link. That was their writing – that’s why I put it in a quote box.
I tried to put everything from studies in quotes – which is all 16 items. I did insert one italicized comment in parentheses.
Because of the organization of the post, it wasn’t practical to link by finding. Hence the list of sources.
Ok, nevermind, I eventually clicked through and figured that out.
One the about the internet that drives me crazy is that people regularly link something to support a proposition, but the linked article rarely actually supports that proposition, or at most tangentially (manospherians do this a lot, feminists are even worse). In this case, the mindhacks thing said what you said, but when I read the full excerpt they are quoting, it doesn’t support their claim.
The actual study shows that high SOI-R men rated ALL of the boobs higher (in other words, they just like lady parts more than the low SOI-R men like lady parts). The difference was highest for the big boobs (showing that, as compared to low SOI-R types, accentuated lady parts are more acceptable), however BOTH LOW AND HIGH SOI-R groups rated medium to large sizes were rated as the most attractive.
This makes sense to me. Guys who are more motivated to bang a lot of women are more enthralled with their bodies.
Susan.
How do you reconcile this with preselection ?
Interesting stuff. #7 is fascinating. It looks like the manosphere, and your blog, are working on the 47% of SOI that is able to be influenced by culture. I’d be curious to see the methodologies.
Speaking of methodological concerns, a number of these data points are influenced by the female urge to guard against discovery of hypergamic instincts, and/or the urge to avoid slut shaming.
Remember the landmark study detailed in the NY Times, we all know which one, that shows that women are often NOT IN TOUCH at all with what arouses them, and often give conflicting reports with what actually stimulates their self-fecundating piezo-electric cleft.
This phenomenon stands out in #12, female face preference of “restricted men’s faces.” This appears facile on its surface, and contradicts much of the known literature. I’m not doubting that this is what women report, but I doubt the accuracy of what women have reported to interviewers. Other studies have shown that women lurrrve the masculinized face, especially around ovulation. Same & similar studies also show that women also believe that the masculine-faced men would make better partners, and even more so at ovulation.
So, ladies & gentlemen, realize there’s some interesting data here, but also, some results conflict with existing data and need further scrutiny. Realize the picture that this data paints has been run through Instagram’s Hamsterbater filter.
The key to happiness in the SMP then is Good girl? Avoid Cads, Good boy? Avoid Sluts. Date everyone left till you find the right combo of attractiveness, good character, compatibility and fun. Then lock it down and never let it go no matter what, easier said than done I know but at least is being said…that is something.
Anaconda got it on the first swing at bat.
“the general theory is that smaller titted girls within any racial group or ethnic group tend to be hornier ”
What nonsense.
most unrestricted guys i know shun big boobs for kate moss type bodies.
@ Susan
This statement appears self-contradictory and I’m wondering what it meant. Which of the sources did it come from?
And I think Anacaona just got a new nickname: the anaconda.
And I think Anacaona just got a new nickname: the anaconda.
Is not new since Anacaona is a rare name here most people’s brain fill up the rest with something more familiar like Anaconda. I’m a Taino Princess not a Jennifer Lopez movie, people! J/K it doesn’t annoy me but is an small example of how perception and bias work, so is good to hear some new info with an open mind once in a while
So, sluts like manwhores and shun virgins and prudes prefer fellow prudes? Would this explain the perception that PUA’s have about women since they tengo to meet and relate to sexually unrestricted woman?
I also just wonder about the number of girls in the internet who claim to be sex-pos, explore their sexuality, feel empowered by having many partners but oh no, they can have perfectly healthy monogamous relationships. Are this stories just lies?
Susan, you and others were discussing David Deangelo (real name Eben Pagan). He married “life coach” Annie Lalla and here she is interviewed on Fox News if you’re interested in who one of the richest PUA/game gurus in the world married. They met at Burning Man and were married in an off beat ceremony (two best men who were a couple) and wrote their own vows which read like a motivational seminar. They took that video off line but here’s her Fox interview;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZHQxwergGw&feature=plcp
Ahh well, here she (Annie Lalla aka Mrs. David Deangelo) is giving attraction/dating advise. Why do y’all thing of her “lay back and be a queen” technique?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXqqInspkQo&feature=context-cha
@Marellus
If women prefer restricted male faces for LTRs, then LTR-oriented women will preselect those men, which will be apparent (though not as obvious) as the preselection of unrestricted males by unrestricted females. The reason the latter is more prevalent and visible is the high turnover rate, of course.
PJ, Annie is physically attractive. At the risk of being ungenerous, I have the opinion that her appearance is what makes her ‘qualified’ to speak on relationships.
Her assumptions that conflict = intimacy is very telling. Challenge the man with shit tests to make sure he’s what you want. That’s the modern woman’s approach to relationships.
Ghosting never looked so good.
How to they distinguish between an “unrestricted face” and a “restricted face”? Or am I reading that wrong?
““the general theory is that smaller titted girls within any racial group or ethnic group tend to be hornier ”
What nonsense.”
So we can hazard a guess that PJ has big tits? :-p
So a good question for girls to ask while evaluating a date is, “if you had to choose, would you prefer a pretty face, or a bangin’ bod?”
If women prefer restricted male faces for LTRs, then LTR-oriented women will preselect those men, which will be apparent (though not as obvious) as the preselection of unrestricted males by unrestricted females. The reason the latter is more prevalent and visible is the high turnover rate, of course.
I think the part missing is that pre-selection is also based on the type of woman. The men here say that women don’t preselect if you sleep with the bottom barrel but they usually mean ugly women. How many good girls would preselect a man that sleeps with hot but dumb and/or slutty/crazy women?
My guess is that this is a difference that barely registers because as demonstrated what a woman finds attractive is different what a man finds attractive, so the restricted male desired and that has paired up before with women the other women find desirable will have a different pool than the unrestricted man that sleeps with women the other women find disgusting for whatever reason, YMMV.
Unrestricted = hyper-masculine
Restricted = less masculine, perhaps tending towards effeminate (depending on the female’s preference)
@ Anacaona
That’s weird. They sound totally different to me, since anaconda (in English at least) uses the æ sound, while Anacaona uses the ɑː sound right? (I’m using IPA notation here).
Besides, Anacaona has a nice musical ring to it.
That’s weird. They sound totally different to me, since anaconda (in English at least) uses the æ sound, while Anacaona uses the ɑː sound right? (I’m using IPA notation here).
They do sound different but they spelled very similarly and start and end almost the same way. I think you are probably are the type that sees a name/object and fits it in your brain by trying ti get the sound but the majority of people store it as visual, hence the confusion.
JutR September 15, 2012 at 10:40 am
PJ, Annie is physically attractive. At the risk of being ungen
erous, I have the opinion that her appearance is what makes her ‘qualified’ to speak on relationships.
-
The PUA world disagrees. Her looks came under a lot of criticism on the PUA sites. She had super short hair and was super skinny when they got married and their wedding ceremony was really kooky. There were several unflattering photos of her floating around those sites making fun of David Deangelo for marrying a “weird woman that looks like a dude”.
I’ll try to find their wedding video because their self created vows are a hoot!
Ah, looks like she put it back up on youtube;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iixfj7XmOzE
@Ms. Plain Jane #14-15:
“Susan, you and others were discussing David Deangelo (real name Eben Pagan).”
O: Where do Ms. Walsh or anybody else specifically mentions D’Angelo? What does he or the wider question of the Seduction Community have to do with the current topic? Please explain?
“He married “life coach” Annie Lalla and here she is interviewed on Fox News if you’re interested in who one of the richest PUA/game gurus in the world married. They met at Burning Man and were married in an off beat ceremony (two best men who were a couple) and wrote their own vows which read like a motivational seminar. They took that video off line but here’s her Fox interview;”
O: Again, what does D’Angelo and his wife have to do with the topic at hand? And why are you so obsessed with them? What gives, Plain Jane? When are you going to tell us why you’re so interested with the comings and goings of the Manosphere if indeed you’ve got it all figured out along spiritual lines, etc? I really need to know what’s eating you.
Wanna talk about it?
“Ahh well, here she (Annie Lalla aka Mrs. David Deangelo) is giving attraction/dating advise. Why do y’all thing of her “lay back and be a queen” technique?”
O: I think her realworld results speak for themselves as to the validity of her methods; why do you ask – are you considering trying it to see if it’ll work for you?
O.
@Ms. Plain Jane #14-15 Revisited:
I’m looking at the YouTubes now. While I don’t find D’Angelo’s wifey to be to my personal liking, in the end it’s irrelevant because what matters is what Dave thinks – and by all accounts, he’s very much in love with her, end of.
I think I get where you’re trying to get at – that that PUAs who talk a mean game about “hot babes’ in truth only get mediocre at best, Women? If so, take a bow, I wouldn’t disagree with you – and neither would Roosh, by the way. He’s written about this quite a bit, and again, one can agree or disagree with it, but it ain’t like it’s a state secret or something.
I’m just wanting to know why you’re so very obsessed about the PUA scene and in particular, Dave D’Angelo. Do you have the hots for him or something? Or maybe it’s his lady that turns you on? Is it that she apparently has some Desi/Indian background that does it? What’s the deal here?
Do tell…
O.
“I also just wonder about the number of girls in the internet who claim to be sex-pos, explore their sexuality, feel empowered by having many partners but oh no, they can have perfectly healthy monogamous relationships. Are this stories just lies?”
What do these girls mean by -
sex-pos?
explore their sexuality?
feel empowered?
They may very well desire or oddly feel entitled to a monogamous relationship after all that prolific “positive exploration and empowerment” but shockingly run into a universal brick wall that all those friends and feminists conveniently failed to mention: the massive amount of men unwilling or unable to consider such women special and worthy of their commitment. But men being this way is harmless. Right?
Old article, but possibly relevant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4790313.stm
“A woman’s sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research”
“They found 60% of 30-year-old women wanted sex “often” at the beginning of a relationship, but within four years of the relationship this figure fell to under 50%, and after 20 years it dropped to about 20%.
In contrast, they found the proportion of men wanting regular sex remained at between 60-80%, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship.”
“But women, he said, have evolved to have a high sex drive when they are initially in a relationship in order to form a “pair bond” with their partner.
But, once this bond is sealed a woman’s sexual appetite declines, he added.”
“The rational for why a woman’s sex drive declines may be down to supply and demand. If something is in infinite supply, the perceived value would drop.”
@Abbot
I tend to visit Reddit’s r/twoxchromosomes, the women’s main community in the site. A type of comment that usually strikes me tends to be along the lines of “I’ve had many sexual partners, many of them were ONS, fuck buddies, booty calls or friends with benefits. I have sex because I enjoy it and I guess you can call me a slut but I don’t like to be called a slut just because I’m sexually liberated. Although I’ve had many partners I’ve never cheated on any of my monogamous relationships. It bothers me that people think I’m gonna cheat just because I’m sexually adventurous. I love my SO we’ve been together for X yrs and I’m glad he takes me as I am”
The part that usually confuses me the most is: “I can completely switch from ONS to girlfriend at any given time without problems”
@ JutR
Women lose libido when they turn 50. Whoulda thunk…
@INTJ
First, I’m going to update the post to link statements to sources directly.
Second, it means that the most unrestricted 20% of women has had as many sexual partners as the same top quintile of men. However, the 80th female percentile scores on the SOI represented the same number of sexual partners as the 39th percentile scores for males.
@Guavaberry
Bingo! I was wondering about PUAs, actually. Are they guys who have an unrestricted sociosexuality, but were poor at realizing their goals? Or are they guys with restricted sexuality who made a conscious choice to learn and adopt a totally incongruent set of behaviors? I suspect it’s the latter.
I think they’re lies, but more in the nature of denial than outright deception.
@Escoffier
I believe it happens completely at the subconscious level. Subjects rank photos according to attractiveness, and then the correlation to the SOI score is noted.
Similarly, studies have shown that women rate faces of men who have cheated in relationships lower than faces of men who have not.
@Anacaona
Exactly. It’s like concluding “all the women” want BU hockey players, because 50 women at BU party with them and have NSA sex with them. The exception bias is rampant in the ‘sphere.
@ms walsh:
Im not getting what the focus on puas is all about; the bottomline is that by your own admission youre not focused on them anyway; so it all comes across as a bit baffling to say the least. By all accounts the puas are getting whatthey want, theyre not the kind of guys you want ladies to get with so whats the beef? Whatever their reasons for doing so the puas are doing their thing. No one is holding a gun to anyones head to get them to deal with such guys. They dont hide what they do, and theyre very easy to find. So why the fuss?
See i have a theory as to why the socalled 80% have such a hard time finding each other-and it has little to do with “pluralistic ignorance”. Ill lay it out in a bit…
O.
@Obsidian
Call it PUA or Game – makes no difference. The truth is that it’s very clear that women vary quite a bit in their receptivity to sexually aggressive (or PUA) tactics (as do men).
Given that sociosexuality is at least half genetic, and generally static throughout life, I find the phenomenon of people making drastic changes in their sexual behavior, whether from chaste to promiscuous or the reverse, very interesting from a psychological POV.
“I can completely switch from ONS to girlfriend at any given time without problems”
Provided that such a woman can get past her most stubborn problem – the man who is willing to consider her special.
Women and men have the same “switch” challenge but the man will have this challenge only if he was able to move as effortlessly through the SMP as the average woman. Thus, there is a very low probability that a commitment minded woman will run into such a man. Men have to be far more on guard and diligent if they are thinking about anything more than getting laid.
How many times have you read such total asshole bullshit like this: “all her experiences make her the person she is today”? Take that as advice to stay away, thank her for the self-admitted slut-tell and for being up front about where is she is coming from and by all means give her one more “experience” as that is her modus expeditione
@ Susan
Aren’t “most unrestricted 20%”, “top quintile”, and “80th percentile” three ways of saying the same thing? In that case, the 39th percentile bit seems to contradict what was said earlier.
Susan,
This is helpful (though I was already figuring it out empirically).
My unrestricted (masculine) features have usually sparked suspicion in the minds of the LTR-focused women to whom I’ve always been attracted (see the Bolick pic I linked). Their prejudice wounded my pride and the connection usually didn’t happen.
On the other hand, there has always been interest on the part of unrestricted women, but I had trouble maintaining my attraction for them, due to the conflict between their SOI and my own. I wasn’t worried about their N, per se, but some of the character that goes along with that makes it difficult to see them as good wives or mothers.
I’ve ended up with somewhat of a false positive on my SOI (I’m more LTR-oriented than my numbers would show) due to efforts to try to make it work with these women, as they were the ones showing interest.
As I learned game, I actually (unwittingly) amped up my unrestricted signals, making the problem worse as signs of obvious interest increased. That’s been a tough puzzle to solve. Thanks for the help on understanding my end.
Deti has some very interesting things to say about female promiscuity.
http://theprivateman.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/cautionary/
“A woman’s sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research”
NOOOOOOOOOO
(thanks for the warning!)
@Sai
“after 20 years it dropped to about 20%.”
Be one of the 20% Sai, trust me…be strong, be kinky, be insatiable
That’s what 50 Shades of Grey is for, right? RIGHT?!
To be fair, Desi, that “prejudice” was correct when you were in your 20s, no?
@ Sai:
Was this source ever cited? I can believe it, though I wonder about the degree that the average woman’s libido “plummets”.
I’ve experienced it in my own relationship, though in our case it was more like going from sex 4 times a day to only three or two times. ; )
PM # 41:
Yeah I’m sure one misogynist finds another’s views on women to be very “interesting”.
Hard to come up with original thoughts in a circlejerk, eh?
I am somewhat new here and have been perusing the archives and past articles and comments for the past week or so. Really interesting stuff. I did go to some of the more well known PUA sites mentioned here but stopped reading cause it was so corrosive to the soul.
I was born and raised in a somewhat traditional culture (one of the most traditional in the world) even while living in North America so a lot of the sentiments that I see in the PUA world and some expressed here are things I grew up hearing.
Having said that, what I see around me is the most promiscious, “sexually-empowered” woman always always get land a quality man for marriage and/or LTRs.
I don’t see what you guys are talking about, re men not wanting promiscuous woman. It seems that is ONLY what they want.
The men who go nuts after very young girls, virgins, inexperienced women are the men from traditional cultures like mine. Maybe Western men do as well, but frankly, I don’t really see it.
Essentially, what you say does not jibe with what I see, at least not in the milieus I hang around in (professional class, liberal city).
My friends from traditional cultures and I would sometimes talk about just going crazy and having one night stands with some random guy here and there. We have the opportunity to do so since a lot of us had to move away from home for education and careers but we don’t (or if my friends do, they would never tell a soul about it).
Hell, I KNOW men here DON’T want virgins because it is “too much responsibility” (actual conversation a friend of mine had with a male acquaintance just after university).
“A woman’s sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research”
“They found 60% of 30-year-old women wanted sex “often” at the beginning of a relationship, but within four years of the relationship this figure fell to under 50%, and after 20 years it dropped to about 20%.
In contrast, they found the proportion of men wanting regular sex remained at between 60-80%, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship.”
-
I keep reading over and over from various experts like the female researcher Susan always cites to many others that once in a relationship the dopamine and other exciting endorphins ebb into oxytocin and thus raw sexual explosion is lost by the 4 year mark, not just for women but for men too. Familiarity and all that. That’s when couples reach a point, often a crisis, when other people start to look very appealing to them because they are new and offer an oppurtunity for those explosive chemicals to explode in their brains and nether regions once again. This is usually when the experts will say a couple needs to reignite the passion by doing this or that.
All of this does not mean the men, or even the women, won’t want to have regular sex with their committed partner as well, its just that a lot of the raw sexual attraction that was there in the beginning has been lost and they might start entertaining fantasies about strangers. That of course doesn’t mean they’ll automatically act upon those fantasies.
***”Be one of the 20% Sai, trust me…be strong, be kinky, be insatiable”***
Its a rare man who can truly handle insatiable. Don’t forget male recovery time, which can be excruciating for insatiable women.
SayWhaat,
“To be fair, Desi, that “prejudice” was correct when you were in your 20s, no?”
Not really – I was never out for casual sex. The few times I was able to overcome it led to my good relationships, a couple of which I should have put a ring on. Those were with women with very high SMV/MMV. The lower the MV, the more the suspicion lingered, and the more difficult it was for me to be sure that she was sufficiently into me for me to stay into her.
Since my alpha on the outside, beta on the inside father had left my feminist, high-achieving mother when I was five, that was always a concern. He went on to be an outstanding husband and father (and now grandfather) in his second marriage, and my mother’s second marriage (the one that raised me) was functional and enjoyable, but not very passionate.
Right, because it wasn’t as socially sanctioned back then.
Right, I get it. I guess what I’m trying to point out is that prejudice was correct because of your flakiness and whatnot in your 20s.
Madelena,
The dynamic I was describing above also happens in the other direction. Just as LTR-seeking women tend to be suspicious of men with masculine features, so too do LTR-seeking men, including otherwise attractive ones, tend to shy away from the most feminine (and thus often those considered most attractive by men and women) women, thinking they won’t have a chance.
That thinking in various ways then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The men who would value your LTR-orientation are not approaching you in the first place.
@ Madalena:
I’m in complete agreement with you.
Yes. I’ve noticed that the “sexually-empowered” woman seems to always enjoy a “home” advantage no matter where she goes. That is, the “sexually-empowered” receive the most sexual attention in professional class/liberal cities (they’re just noticed more), and they also reap the home advantage in areas where the M/F ratios are in their favor (e.g. Tech universities).
I know.
It’s a silly argument too, because what responsibility would you be taking on, exactly? Do you think virgins don’t have families, commitments, and other weighty responsibilities of their own to deal with?
Aand now I need to board my plane. TTYL folks.
SayWhaat,
“Right, because it wasn’t as socially sanctioned back then.”
No, it was because I come from a great extended family (only 4 divorces out of over 20 marriages – all from those born 1944-1950, BTW) and wanted to start my own.
“Right, I get it. I guess what I’m trying to point out is that prejudice was correct because of your flakiness and whatnot in your 20s.”
It wasn’t quite that simple – I was in a great LTR by 23. Had some success after that, but still a lot of situations like Susan’s pre-med student and the nanny of getting blown-out prematurely and having no idea why (unrestricted women attracted to my looks, but not my LTR-orientation). Also a lot of women in relationships with less-than-marriage material boyfriends (this was the heyday of serial monogamy), some of whom wanted to trade up, but that wasn’t something I was interested in.
“Right, because it wasn’t as socially sanctioned back then.”
Prime example of the prejudice.
@Madelena
Is a guy saying that he’s taking seriously the implications of taking the virginity of a woman who has (presumably) been saving herself, necessarily being a nasty man? He sounds like he might have a conscience – that wasn’t bad last time I checked, right?
Or, maybe he thinks that it’ll take too long to get the chance to do the beast with two backs – so maybe, he isn’t the one that you want anyway?
I know of no other reason that a guy would react badly to a virgin. IME men would love to be the first man that a woman, that he deeply cares about, has (and quite possibly the last as well*). If PUAs are giving virgins a miss, then hats off to them, and good luck to the girls.
I was a virgin once, believe me that it all went pretty naturally the first time, just a little quicker than the second etc etc (TMI – right Susan?). Storing up tension over this, as a man or woman, is a waste of time. It will be fine, and it will improve. I don’t know where these crap horror stories come from – I mean monkeys do it without special training?…I guess. You, and your friends, will be just fine.
*not anything sinister, I just mean LTR
@ SayWhaat
Holy crap. I thought you worked most of the day! Do you spend all the time with your boyfriend having sex? You don’t have to answer that lol.
@Just1X
Yes, sir!
“*not anything sinister, I just mean LTR”
That asterisk made me laugh.
@SayWhaat
ROFL and fly safely.
@A Definite Beta Guy
I shouldn’t laugh because what happened to your friend was vile, but when you mentioned 50 Shades of Grey I lost it. My dad had wanted so badly to check it out from the library and I told him he might not want to, and yesterday he turned to me and said it was kind of disappointing.
SayWhaat September 16, 2012 at 1:17 pm
@ Madalena:
I’m in complete agreement with you.
Having said that, what I see around me is the most promiscious, “sexually-empowered” woman always always get land a quality man for marriage and/or LTRs.
Yes. I’ve noticed that the “sexually-empowered” woman seems to always enjoy a “home” advantage no matter where she goes. That is, the “sexually-empowered” receive the most sexual attention in professional class/liberal cities (they’re just noticed more), and they also reap the home advantage in areas where the M/F ratios are in their favor (e.g. Tech universities).
—
Madalene and Say Whaat,
I also see what you see but will add those promiscuous women that are landing the best men for marriage and LTRs are most likely physically attractive (bare minimum 6′s) and have affable personalities.
For all the heeing and hawing in the Sphere about wanting “chaste women”, what they really want is women above a certain threshold of looks and certain threshold of personality.
Especially considering that most people in the day to day are not all that great looking, and then the obesity epidemic adds to lowering the threshold of “average looking”.
For all the heeing and hawing about divorced women and baby mamas not being able to land good solid men, I am surrounded by divorced women and baby mamas who did just that. These men are not millionaires or movie stars or “top notch alphas” but they are decent looking, good men, and often times younger than said women.
I think what happens in the Manosphere is these guys find THEMSELVES alone and lonely, but every time they step outside their door they find “reformed sluts”, divorcees and baby mamas coupled up with men who are most likely better than they are, and that really gets their goatee so they go online and yell at each other, “30+ divorced women, baby mamas and ex-carousel riders who want to settle down – YOU CAN’T”
The thing is – all those ex-carousellers, divorcees and baby mamas AREN’T reading Manosphere blogs because they are too busy living their lives with the children and man. The only other people who are getting the message that these women can’t do this are………. OTHER LONELY MEN.
“Maybe Western men do as well, but frankly, I don’t really see it.”
aka a captive audience (with national borders on lock-down), many of whom are duped and others just convince themselves they can handle wretch suppression
@Sai
“That asterisk made me laugh.”
– yeah, basically not a sex, murder and suicide type deal
Well…that feedback was welcome – no tumbleweeds today.
I don’t know where these crap horror stories come from – I mean monkeys do it without special training?…I guess. You, and your friends, will be just fine.
I would say that my husband wasn’t singing me praises when he find out I was a virgin. The rest of the package convinced him to give himself the chance with me but he actually doesn’t want to raise the kids into valuing virginity, he doesn’t want then to be promiscuous of course but remaining virgin for a long time is not something he find valuable male and female. The prejudice against virginity does exist in this countries and I don’t think they are exaggerating at all. Is not only PUA’s wary of it, remember when was the last time you saw a virgin positively portrayed on the media? Media and culture have a symbiotic relationship and usually a goody two shoes character ends up being really prejudiced and/or kind of crazy, YMMV.
@Ana
I only meant that PUAs would see virgins as a (probable) poor investment of their ‘precious’ time. Not that there would be any other issue. I would see no other issue, is the plainest that I can put it, quite the reverse.
I only meant that PUAs would see virgins as a (probable) poor investment of their ‘precious’ time. Not that there would be any other issue. I would see no other issue, is the plainest that I can put it, quite the reverse.
But you are assuming that only a PUA’s will reject a virgin like that, most men do. Everytime we have the virginity discussion here most guys agree that its a drawback. Not the guys I would consider nice mind you, but then women also have to select from the men that find them attractive. Having a big V seems to take away from attractiveness not add to it.
@Ana
(with added clarity)
poor investment of time as the virginal woman would be assumed to have higher bullshit defences… (not as a bad thing *sigh* 3rd attempt).
Susan, did you see this Modern Love column in the NYT? She was promiscuous in her early 20s–more partners than the future husband, found the husband in her mid 20s, and married him.
Over the years monogamy has been a challenge for her, so they have found a middle ground which meets her needs and which she assures herself somehow benefits their marriage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/fashion/modern-love-you-may-call-it-cheating-but-we-dont.html?_r=1&ref=modernlove
“I would say that my husband wasn’t singing me praises when he find out I was a virgin. The rest of the package convinced him to give himself the chance with me but he actually doesn’t want to raise the kids into valuing virginity, he doesn’t want then to be promiscuous of course but remaining virgin for a long time is not something he find valuable male and female.”
Virginity is only a value to uber religious people or those from ultra conservative cultures. Otherwise I’ve found that some men thought “wow, she must be a loser, not be desired by other men, unsexy, unpopular” etc when I was a virgin.
And to some extent they would have been right as I’ve never had men “hitting” on me in public. All of the 8+ men I’ve dated were because I initiated contact, covertly or overtly, and I eventually grew on them, a few to the point of marriage proposals. The only men who ever open flirted with me first were either old enough to be my father or otherwise unattractive men (for example obese – even though I’m not obese myself), or both.
Its just not true that the average female is getting endlessly approached.
@Ana
did you just call me a nice guy? you take that back, right now! who have you been talking to? they’re liars and/or deranged.
To get perhaps too personal (Susan can delete if you wish, no probs)
If I were your husband, I would be delighted that my new bride was in tact, it would not have been a deal breaker if your N was low, but N=0 would not have been an impediment at all, in fact it would have been a plus (for me alone, it seems).
Now again, if I were your husband, I might not wish to raise my children quite as strictly (but still low N). That is not the same issue. I would be speculating what the V would do for/to them/their life (how others might see them). That perhaps they might be ‘better off’ not being virgins at marriage – IDK. With you, I would be meeting the finished goods…it would be all good. – so, not the same thing?
The only disadvantage for a man when considering a virgin (AFAICS FWIW YMMV) is that she has demonstrated will power in the area (or has a face like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle). She has demonstrated that she is probably capable of keeping him (me) waiting for a long time (most men will not like this, including me). If she insists on no sex before marriage – that to me would be a deal breaker, but others would require it. It depends on the type of man that she sets her heart on.
did you just call me a nice guy? you take that back, right now! who have you been talking to? they’re liars and/or deranged.
Too late :p
To get perhaps too personal (Susan can delete if you wish, no probs)
If I were your husband, I would be delighted that my new bride was in tact, it would not have been a deal breaker if your N was low, but N=0 would not have been an impediment at all, in fact it would have been a plus (for me alone, it seems).
For you alone but then you are older do you think your 20 year old self would be this enthusiastic about it?
Also to bring context half of hubby’s girlfriends were virgins too. He was like “Another one?!” I used to joke that he whether dates virgins or bitches (my assessment of the non virgin ones he never talks bad about them) so good luck I was a virging
Now again, if I were your husband, I might not wish to raise my children quite as strictly (but still low N). That is not the same issue. I would be speculating what the V would do for/to them/their life (how others might see them). That perhaps they might be ‘better off’ not being virgins at marriage – IDK. With you, I would be meeting the finished goods…it would be all good. – so, not the same thing?
May be. He has explained to me that his friends had made very poor choices in women due to lack of experience (one of them even dated a stripper) so he associate lack of personal experience with naivety. I mention him that I’m not stupid and I’m inexperienced so who knows we will see when the kids start to grow up what are they going to be working against and with and made the choice. I do plan to make sure they understand male and female dynamics very clearly so they don’t end up screwed up out of feelings (girl) hornyness (boy)
The only disadvantage for a man when considering a virgin (AFAICS FWIW YMMV) is that she has demonstrated will power in the area (or has a face like a bulldog licking piss off a nettle). She has demonstrated that she is probably capable of keeping him (me) waiting for a long time (most men will not like this, including me).
Heh I mentioned that now that I’m not a virgin I really can’t go without it for a long time like I get really cranky so that I don’t think is an accurate assessment of how it works, IME.
If she insists on no sex before marriage – that to me would be a deal breaker, but others would require it. It depends on the type of man that she sets her heart on.
Once I had my engagement ring I considered him my husband so technically we didn’t made it to the signing of papers but being long distance waiting seemed just stupid waste of time, but that indeed depends on the man in question.
@Ana
“Too late :p” – I can find no forgiveness in my heart
Maybe my culture made a virgin a great thing in a sexual partner? Mid 40s age now Southern English (suburbs). Attitudes to sex that I heard of in more ‘advanced’ regions were…slacker. But I don’t remember a virgin ever being regarded as bad, just hellishly hard to find (anecdotally). Susan’s stats suggest that the place (Uni) was generously stocked, but IDK where they were hiding, not in the STEM departments in any great numbers (women in general I mean).
But to those affected, relax, it truly isn’t a big issue – i.e. the physical act. It’ll all sort itself out without drama. Emotionally and ethically, that’s up to you.
“Too late :p” – I can find no forgiveness in my heart
I’M SHOCKED!!! You have a heart?! :p
@Ana
yeah, I have a heart. As an MRA it’s small, shrivelled and black…laugh it up
yeah, I have a heart. As an MRA it’s small, shrivelled and black…laugh it up
http://currybomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/mr-burns-heart.png
@Ana, yep that’s the one…tell those that need to know…
SW: “I’ve experienced it in my own relationship, though in our case it was more like going from sex 4 times a day to only three or two times. ; )”
Nice try, as you’re not in a secure relationship, but rather under the fog of new lust. How many months has it been?
yep that’s the one…tell those that need to know…
It will make a lovely neg valentine’s card “I LOVE YOU WITH ALL MY HEART” then cue to tiny black thing that barely can beat
See i have a theory as to why the socalled 80% have such a hard time finding each other-and it has little to do with “pluralistic ignorance”. Ill lay it out in a bit…
Obsidian, I’m genuinely curious what your theory is. I have a theory on this as well that I think is at least a partial explanation.
@Desi
This is something that I am very interested in. You’re not the only one, Mike C is extremely masculine in his appearance but obviously is LTR oriented, although he has described himself as somewhat unrestricted in his sociosexuality.
Given the half genetics/half environment divide, I’m wondering if some of the very masculine, high T guys are unrestricted genetically, coupled with highly restricted culturally. That makes sense in cases of religiosity, or of being raised to be ultra beta in other ways after the Women’s Movement. If so, then I can imagine you feel a deep sense of conflict re your sexuality and what is “right.”
@Private Man
A well written letter to 10% of the female population.
Susan,
A number of posts now keep referencing back to this “masculine” versus “non-masculine” face concept, and then sometimes “hyper-masculine” gets thrown in as well. Honestly, I still wonder what the hell those various terms mean. You mentioned doing a post that segmented what exactly these terms mean, especially the difference between masculine and hypermasculine. Last night, I watched Snow White and the Huntsman with the fiancee so Hemsworth was on my mind. I’d classify him as masculine but not hyper-masculine:
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1400&bih=688&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=c1hfmz7qfb5ulM:&imgrefurl=http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1165110/&docid=AMJclp-j-SY70M&imgurl=http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTg3NDA3MTU3MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTIwNTUwNw%2540%2540._V1._SY314_CR45,0,214,314_.jpg&w=214&h=314&ei=8HVWUIeHFsiFywHDiIAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=334&sig=106077039016368313723&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=99&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:155&tx=27&ty=83
@Madelena
Welcome, thanks so much for commenting!
How do you define quality man? Is he promiscuous? Or is he a man who is more restricted in his sociosexual orientation?
The way it tends to work is that promiscuous people pair off, and non-promiscuous people pair off.
A virgin chasing a ONS with a manwhore has a 98% chance of being disappointed…
MikeC,
“A number of posts now keep referencing back to this “masculine” versus “non-masculine” face concept, and then sometimes “hyper-masculine” gets thrown in as well.”
I don’t have a ruler handy, but it looks like my ring finger is almost a centimeter longer than my index finger, and I can hit a low B-flat (Bb1), so the T likely flows strong in the veins. There are facial/physique features that go with that. Maybe Susan could do a post identifying them.
“That makes sense in cases of religiosity, or of being raised to be ultra beta in other ways after the Women’s Movement. If so, then I can imagine you feel a deep sense of conflict re your sexuality and what is ‘right.’”
Religiousity = ultra beta is bad news for religion. Got to get that shit straightened out ASAP.
I was literally a Beta in college, but then again we’d won the IFC trophy for best fraternity (based on grades, sports, and campus leadership) 17 years in a row when I graduated, so if we were beta we were the greatest betas around. We were known, not entirely ironically, as the “Milk and Cookie Boys.” Nearly all of us married well by 30, but our female pickings during college featured quality over quantity.
As for feeling conflicted, I really don’t feel like banging anything that moves though, and have had trouble maintaining arousal without an emotional connection.
I did feel an overwhelming compulsion to assure that “ten” I met last week that I wasn’t hitting on her (with raised hands) before I asked her the question about men approaching her – this in the middle of a pleasant conversation in which she was showing no discomfort at all. Now that is ultra-beta, and not in a good way.
“The way it tends to work is that promiscuous people pair off, and non-promiscuous people pair off. ”
Yeah, when they’re being promiscuous.
From the link pvw provided;
“My husband and I are monogamous. There has just always been a small asterisk where I am concerned: under certain circumstances, he is not disappointed if I don’t follow the letter of the law.
Maybe it would be different if I had taken advantage of this freedom by going further than kissing a couple of other people in the past decade, or if I had ever lied to anyone, or if I tended to develop overwhelming feelings for other men. (That did happen once before we were married; my crush on a co-worker ended up being miserable for all of us.) But as a rule, being honest about this has made us feel like more of a team, and even improved our sex life.
It may seem eccentric that my husband has translated the common fear of being cheated on into enthusiasm for the idea, but he’s not alone. Type “cuckold” into a pornography search engine and you’ll be greeted with countless scenes in which people play out that exact fantasy.
In an anthology edited by Susie Bright, who blogs about sex, one woman said: “It surprises me to no end that the sexual fetish of cuckoldry, once thought of as a disability, could be shared by so many people. The cuckolding fetish has an element of surprise, along with a bittersweet emotional masochism. Another key to the fetish, from the perspective of the cuckold, is that of eroticizing as a defense mechanism.”
The M-sphere must behaving fits, and not of ecstasy.
I’ve often thought that some of them might be nurturing secret cuckold fetishes, by the way they go on and on about it and all.
@ Madalene
I can’t promise you that some slutty girls aren’t going to hook up with some guys. They have lots of nice attributes: that’s how they ended up with guys in the first place. They are capable of landing A man for commitment.
But there’s a ton of guys out there that are not comfortable with slutty girls, either. Maybe you don’t see those girls out walking the streets. But they exist. You can read the stories right here. You can ask Jason, or Jesus M, or I guess deti, or even me.
And I am pretty sure you don’t want to end up as the girl who got rejected for being too slutty. I’m pretty sure that’s among the worst feelings in the world.
” But there’s a ton of guys out there that are not comfortable with slutty girls, either. Maybe you don’t see those girls out walking the streets. But they exist. You can read the stories right here. You can ask Jason, or Jesus M, or I guess deti, or even me. ”
She’d be getting only Jason’s, Jesus’s, M’s, Deti’s and your (all guys) points of view. Not gettting the points of view of the women you all supposedly rejected for being too slutty. Maybe all those women are currently in happy LTRs with stellar men. Just because you guys rejected them doesn’t mean they went on to become “spinsters”.
@Anacaona
This makes me feel a bit sad, but it’s understandable 50 years after the Sexual Revolution. We’ve had plenty of stories here of how badly people feel about their own virginity.
And yet…the number of virgins in college is going up. Whether through resolve or lack of opportunity, it’s hard to say. I suspect the latter, and that’s what I’m working on.
Yes, because PUAs are unrestricted in their sexuality, and virgins are highly restricted. Not a match.
“you don’t want to end up as the girl who got rejected for being too slutty. I’m pretty sure that’s among the worst feelings in the world.”
Slut rejection, despite its quiet execution, is the deepest most cutting type of slut shaming known to women and yet oddly the least discussed among sluts and feminists. Its barely even referenced in their rants and articles. Why is that?
@mike c, ms walsh:
I was thinking the same thing about this “faces” survey as it relates to guys and to tell you the truth i think its a bunch of bunk for “robert putnam” reasons. Ill elaborate a bit further on that but for now just for kicks i want to ask ms walsh and all the other ladies reading along:
To rate the male cast of the avengers’ faces:
-Robert downey jr/tony stark iron man
-chris evans/steve rogers captain america
-mark ruffalo/bruce banner the hulk
-chris hemsworth/thor odinson
-clark gregg/agent phil coulson
-jeremy renner/hawkeye
-samuel l jackson/nick fury
So…who among these guys have “str faces” and who has “ltr faces”-and why?
O.
Mike C September 16, 2012 at 8:49 pm
See i have a theory as to why the socalled 80% have such a hard time finding each other-and it has little to do with “pluralistic ignorance”. Ill lay it out in a bit…
Obsidian, I’m genuinely curious what your theory is. I have a theory on this as well that I think is at least a partial explanation.
–
I have a theory too. They’re too picky and the culture does not promote “settling” for settling down’s sake.
@Mike C
That’s a fair question. I’ll look into it, I don’t know the answer offhand.
I agree with you re Hemsworth – he’s masculine, but also “pretty” in a way. This is perhaps the contemporary ideal.
@mike c:
Heres my theory in a nutshell:
The nerds/introverts have inherent blockages towards getting together. Its a “high iq” thing and as such there are tradeoffs associated with this.
Forums/venues like these ie hus, certain parts of the manosphere etc have a tendency to attract nerds/introvert types. Put that with the fact that nerds/introverts are more prevalent in our time because of the nature of the world in which we live, ie a “dnerd/introvert friendly” world thats based more on modes of existence that are more amenable to such people than in the past and it all makes sense. The 80% have trouble getting together because they inherently arent inclined to be “realtime” sociable. Idiocracy, strikes again.
This is why hbd plays such a powerful role, and why science will indeed break this thing wide open-and then the real fun is going to begin.
Plain jane is right to note that guys in the sphere are quirky nerds and the like but she doesnt go far enough; their female counterparts are to be found in venues like this one. Shes one of them in fact. Just read what she says about herself.
I remember first reading roissy years back. I got hold of a few books on game and within 60 days was seeing much better results. There are guys for whom it takes at least a year. The reason why? Hbd.
I have a mesomorphic bodytype (5’8″, 165lbs, 44 athletic suit size) and mesos are among if not the naturals of the game world, whereas ectomorphs-the stereotypical nerdy/skinny guys-tend to be the slowest learners of the game world.
So, ms walsh is dealing with an interesting “problem” but not the one she thinks-or wants to accept. The problem is that the people are inherently less likely to get out there to begin with-which accounts for their falling marital rates and reproductive rates to boot.
Charles murray was right…
O.
This makes me feel a bit sad, but it’s understandable 50 years after the Sexual Revolution. We’ve had plenty of stories here of how badly people feel about their own virginity.
Don’t be virginity worked for me and I was wired to monogamy if I have a daughter and she takes after me she will probably be on “eggs most be protected” on her own she will be lucky because she will probably have a better pool to choose than I had so she might be able to do both marry young to her first partner and start a family like I wish I did.
Hubby also says that being the son of nerds the boy chances of getting laid before college are slim anyway but that if he manages to do it he probably be all: “High five…wait were you safe? Okay then high five”. Yep that is about right.
It doesn’t work that way. Here’s how they do it:
They have a pile of photos with SOI scores attached.
Women rate them for attractiveness.
Result: Manwhores are the least attractive, Boyfriends are the most attractive.
Obviously, this can only happen with a random, representative sample of females.
@ms plain jane:
You make a point but its only tangential to the one im making. The root “problem. I propose, is hbd-based.
O.
80% of the population is nerdy introverts? I don’t think so…
@ms walsh:
80% of the population YOURE focusing on, ie, white, at least middle class college kids living on campus and who are highly likely to use forums like this?
Hell yea…
O.
@ Just1x:
And here you are, committing the same prejudice that others have before you!
It’s not the act itself that is preventing virgins from “de-virginizing” — it’s the lack of opportunity. All the virgins I know would be only too happy to jump in the sack!
Speaking of prejudice…
@ Desi
I’m just trying to figure out what the mistakes you made were, exactly. You said you were really flaky in your 20s — and then discounted that as the reason. Then you mentioned an LTR at 23 as well as others you would have wifed up — yet you didn’t. Do you mind if I ask what were your reasons those relationships didn’t work out? I’m not trying to rake you over the coals here or anything, I’m genuinely curious (and apologies if you’ve gone into detail over this subject before). But I think that other young readers here could learn from what you consider to be mistakes and glean some lessons from those experiences.
@ OTC:
Going on 10 months.
@ INTJ:
Ha! Well, I use “per day” loosely — usually meaning “every day I get to see him”.
@ms walsh:
Yea thats what i thought-like i said, im not buying it; remember what happened with putnam, lol. We all can think up all manner of examples where guys with “hard” faces not only had no trouble with the ladies, they had the (mulitple) baby mamas to prove it-i know i can easily rattle off several dozen off the top of my head.
Self report is the most suspect method of going about collecting/conducting research. Look at what people-in this case women-do not what they say…
O.
“Slut rejection, despite its quiet execution, is the deepest most cutting type of slut shaming known to women and yet oddly the least discussed among sluts and feminists. Its barely even referenced in their rants and articles. Why is that?”
I’m honestly not entirely sure how this feels to a woman. I searched online but I can’t find a damn thing.
@SayWhat
4 times a day is pretty intense. Color me envious.
I agree with you re Hemsworth – he’s masculine, but also “pretty” in a way. This is perhaps the contemporary ideal.
Ha. If I were gay, I think he’d be my type. At least to me, the male ideal is something like Hemsworth, or Pitt in Helen of Troy:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OO1cxpaKueA/TjQKPBssRWI/AAAAAAAADHs/sTLITFL20lM/s640/brad+pitt+Troy+02.jpg
I agree with you re Hemsworth – he’s masculine, but also “pretty” in a way.
I’m sure its hard to verbalize/articulate but could you try to expand on what makes his look simutaneously masculine but “pretty”
“Plain jane is right to note that guys in the sphere are quirky nerds and the like but she doesnt go far enough; their female counterparts are to be found in venues like this one. Shes one of them in fact. Just read what she says about herself.”
Me, a quirky nerd? Hmm I dunno. Maybe. Doesn’t mean I’m attracted to my opposite sex counterpart, though
Remember I said I dated a number of 8+ lookers?
But what do you mean by I said the guys in the “sphere” are quirky nerds? I differentiate between the PUA-sphere and the Manosphere. The PUA-sphere may be comprised of quirky nerds but as far as I can tell by scouring their forums, they are not angry, bitter, racist, right-wing cultural chauvinists, like you get in the Manosphere which has attempted in an odd way to co-opt the PUA-sphere but which remains opposed to it because of its “liberal” and sex-possie lifestyle.
The Manosphere is a world onto itself and quirky nerdiness is the least of its problems. Again, like I stated earlier, most women do not find racism and cultural chauvinism to be hot, what to speak of blatant sexism.
I’d take Mystery any day over that mess; eyeliner, furry hat and all.
This is something that I am very interested in. You’re not the only one, Mike C is extremely masculine in his appearance but obviously is LTR oriented, although he has described himself as somewhat unrestricted in his sociosexuality.
Given the half genetics/half environment divide, I’m wondering if some of the very masculine, high T guys are unrestricted genetically, coupled with highly restricted culturally.
I’ll admit I’ve thought about this a lot. I’ve had 7 partners, 2 in monogamous LTRs (basically 12 of the last 16 years), 5 either flings, FWBs, or really short-term. My guess is my wiring is more towards unrestricted, and I base this on the fact that I really enjoyed my STR sexual activity. There was definitely a dopamine rush. I totally CANNOT relate to guys like Ted D or Desi who say they have trouble staying aroused if there is no emotional connection. I’ve had sex with women I had no emotional connection with or even didn’t really like, but found very physically attractive. My best guess is I am unrestricted genetically, but was raised to be restricted.
I am also happy being in a LTR with a deep emotional connection. The way I see it is sex is just one component of a happy, fulfilling, content life. There is financial success, vocational success, and definitely that feeling of knowing there is someone who has your back. I had some serious health problems not too long ago that I am still kind of dealing with. No random casual sex partner is going to take care of you when you really need it.
Just being honest, but if my sole consideration was maximizing my sexual satisfaction, I’d be single looking to rack up numbers with variety. But again, life is about SO MUCH MORE than just sexual satisfaction. We don’t get to maximize everything. Women have to choose whether to maximize career success or marriage and children. Life is about trade-offs and realizing you cannot always get everything you want as some things are mutually exclusive.
So to me..in terms of unrestricted versus LTR….I’m giving up one thing to get something of greater long-term value. I suspect for me it is the future time orientation thing at work.
That makes sense in cases of religiosity, or of being raised to be ultra beta in other ways after the Women’s Movement. If so, then I can imagine you feel a deep sense of conflict re your sexuality and what is “right.
Thanks for all your responses.
When I mean that Western men don’t really care about a woman’s sexual status, i.e. virgin or not, I did not mean only PUAs – from what I read about their ways I think a lot of men can benefit from utilizing their methods but I don’t care for their end goal of sleeping with as many women as possible hence PUAs and I are not one another’s targets.
I meant a good quality guy like Anacoana’s husband, who I assume is not a PUA, yet still has the very common Western male attitude of not caring for sexually inexperienced women.
Growing up in a culture where a woman’s value lie greatly in her youth, virginity and beauty I actually do think it is far more humane thing to value women for more than that, don’t get me wrong. It’s just sometimes the grass is greener on the other side, lol
Btw, I didn’t think I needed to disclose this but I am not a virgin. Haven’t been for a couple of years. Before I lost my virginity to my bf, I would actually lie about my number because the truth makes one into an oddity. I was already considered a little odd for not hooking up and having one night stands like a lot of my Western peers and co-workers were doing but they chalked it up to me coming from a different culture and not being born and raised in the West.
This is interesting, especially in light of something my BF said to me today. We were discussing the Hanna Rosin article (we both just read it yesterday) and I was pointing out that most women can’t really separate sex from emotions, while many guys can. He said he prefers relationships, but always had a sense that there were girls he’d never date but would have sex with based on physical attraction. He also said that if he found himself single again, he’d be a lot more sexually aggressive/forward with girls. Based on those comments, and on his physical features, I suspect he’s like you: genetically wired to be unrestricted, but raised to be restricted.
It’s also been interesting to hear about my brother in his first romantic relationship of sorts (nothing is official, but he’s been hanging out with someone for the last two weeks). He also strikes me as fairly high T, but he is extremely hesitant to get physical with this girl because he’s afraid of making her uncomfortable. I actually almost sent him to this corner of the internet, but I don’t want to chance him stumbling on my stuff lol.
Obsidian, I’d personally have assumed that Coulson and maybe Banner were LTR-oriented, dad types. I’d assume that the rest were either active-duty or recently-retired uberplayers (including Cap—for the point of the exercise I’m trying to imagine knowing nothing about him).
“Western men don’t really care about a woman’s sexual status, i.e. virgin or not”
Except for a small number of men, that is true. However, men very much do prefer to avoid commitment to women with the numerically wretched pasts. It is NEVER about virginity for nearly all Western men.
That serves to clear up any confusion regarding the irrelevant topic of virginity.
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“in a culture where a woman’s value lie greatly in her youth, virginity and beauty I actually do think it is far more humane thing to value women for more than that”
How a woman is valued in the mind of a man is entirely up to the man. Its convenient to state that its “culture” influencing how he thinks. Rather than make such an unproven assumption, it may be more useful to ask men why they value women the way they do, accept what they say and conduct your life accordingly (or not).
“I was already considered a little odd for not hooking up and having one night stands like a lot of my Western peers and co-workers were doing but they chalked it up to me coming from a different culture”
But you are in a very similar sexual “culture” (non-gluttonous) when compared to nearly all Western men and therefore the appropriate match. Certainly, you care about men and therefore would advise them to regularly bask in the glorious female bounty awaiting them in your country.
Re: modern love
So she’s OK cheating but got mad when her husband did it…
…
Given the half genetics/half environment divide, I’m wondering if some of the very masculine, high T guys are unrestricted genetically, coupled with highly restricted culturally. That makes sense in cases of religiosity, or of being raised to be ultra beta in other ways after the Women’s Movement. If so, then I can imagine you feel a deep sense of conflict re your sexuality and what is “right.”
I think you are correct. But note that built into certain religious perspectives, including the traditional Christian one, is the idea that the conflict you’ve identified is supposed to be felt by some men and women. The genetic unrestrictions, both male and female, are the reason for the cultural/religious restrictions. The concept is laid out explicitly in a number of places, specifically 1 Corinthians 7:1-9.
It’s an interesting thought, in that without conflict, there is no change. And with no change, there is no progress.
That’s not who Deti was describing. He’s talking about the entire population through his usual lens, which zeroes in on the most promiscuous women like paparazzi zero in on Kate Middleton’s breasts. Deti’s problem is one of massive exception bias, seasoned with a big handful of confirmation bias.
None of this will make sense to you unless you go back and read the link.
First, you’re moving the goalposts. This post references faces of unrestricted males, as evidenced by their SOI scores. They were not selected for masculinity.
Second, you’re guilty (as per usual) of exception bias. The studies don’t claim that no one found the unrestricted faces attractive. Obviously, there wouldn’t be any if these men did not reproduce.
The question is not “Would you have sex with this man?” The question is: rate this man’s attractiveness on a scale from one to ten. Easy to do, right? You and other guys here do it all the time. At the end of the day, the photos of the men with who are unrestricted in their orientation have statistically significant lower scores than men who are more restricted.
It’s simple and straightforward. You may claim that women then go on to have sex with men who are perceived as less attractive, but that has not been studied here.
@Mike C
This photo captures it well, I think:
He started out as a femme pretty boy, then added all the muscle.
He has piercing blue eyes with very long eyelashes. His nose is very straight and on the small side. He has heavy eyebrows and a defined jaw, but his mouth is quite feminine.
A similar case is Taylor Kitsch:
Now:
and then. In this one he has the face of a Victoria’s Secret Model:
@Madelena
This is not unusual. I’ve known women who were afraid their bf would find out he was the first, even after they had sex.
Wow, Susan! Awesome photos
I had no idea Chris used to look like that. He was a handsome guy in his younger days, but I definitely prefer him as Thor!
As for Taylor Kitch.. I have no words
@Say Whaaaat
Sorry, didn’t know it at the time, but I was coming down with a cold last night. This explains crap typing and lack of clarity. Feeling bleuch right now.
I have conversed with women afraid of the act, I was intending kindness.
When I said about ethics and emotions, I assumed that the woman still had the V-card from choice – due to ethics (save it for marriage) or emotion (not want to give it away in a P&D). In either case, if she decides to give it up, it is her decision to change her ethics or emotions. There was no judgement implied by me.
If, as you say, these women are trapped in virginity due to men being repulsed by virgins…well, I got nothing. What reasons do the men give? That runs so contrary to my attitudes, those of my friends and my experiences that I’ll bow out. It just sounds bizarre to me. Best of luck to all.
@Just1X
1. Messy, blood everywhere, no thank you.
2. Virgins get clingy. They want to see you again, no thank you.
Obviously, it’s sexually experienced men who feel this way.
@ Just1X
I think it’s projection.
@Just1X
Sorry to hear you’re not feeling well. Hope you’re better soon. :-~|
Oh as long as there are reasons /sarc
One of my favourite memories is the expression on her face the first time I…tl;dr…and she wasn’t a virgin. Delicious memory…to be the very first, to leave you both with a memory that will last a lifetime…priceless.
Sorry, just don’t get it.
This photo captures it well, I think:
He started out as a femme pretty boy, then added all the muscle.
He has piercing blue eyes with very long eyelashes. His nose is very straight and on the small side. He has heavy eyebrows and a defined jaw, but his mouth is quite feminine.
Very interesting comparison. I’d be interested to know the respective ages on each of those photos. The difference is quite striking, not just in terms of muscle mass, but how is facial structure seemed to shift substantially (at least to me). FWIW, the younger (thinner) photo suggests he is naturally an ectomorph. I’m speculating here, but I’d bet he has done a number of steroid cycles. It is possible, but highly unlikely he would have been able to gain that type of muscle mass from his natural build without “assistance”. Most steroids have a combination of androgenic (masculinizing) and anabolic (muscle growth) effects and one sign of steroid use is a face that becomes more masculinized. My guess is most of the commenters here would actually prefer the thinner, less muscle, more feminine face although I’m surprised Iggles preferred the more masculine, larger muscle mass. I’m not sure there is a 100% correlation between whether a woman is restricted or unrestricted and whether she prefers a more masculine or feminine look. Just guessing, but I’d bet the “best looking guys” facially combine sort of the more masculine jaw line with a more feminine softer nose. Both Hemsworth and Brad Pitt fall into that category I think. Ashton Kutcher kind of has that look as well, and he was a male model before becoming an “actor”…ummmm cough ahem.
Yeah, I don’t know. In both cases, though, it was the ectomorph pretty boy who became a star and then beefed up for specific superhero type roles. Taylor Kitsch was still quite feminine in the final season of FNL a year or so ago – I think he’s around 30 now.
Olive: “I was pointing out that most women can’t really separate sex from emotions, while many guys can. He said he prefers relationships, but always had a sense that there were girls he’d never date but would have sex with based on physical attraction. He also said that if he found himself single again, he’d be a lot more sexually aggressive/forward with girls. Based on those comments, and on his physical features, I suspect he’s like you: genetically wired to be unrestricted, but raised to be restricted.”
I was raised just like that, too.
Question: how do you define “emotional separation”? I’ve had some flings, and I considered myself emotionally involved with most of them. They just weren’t mongamous. Wouldn’t it be more correct to say “separate sex from monogamy”?
Messy, blood everywhere? An urban myth. Or should I say a village myth.
Abbot:
” Certainly, you care about men and therefore would advise them to regularly bask in the glorious female bounty awaiting them in your country.”
Not everybody believes in inter-racial or inter-cultural marriages, what to speak of inter-religious. I’m more liberal in that regard but many of my older extended family members are deadset against it, and many of the younger ones, while not entirely opposed, prefer to be with “their own” because there’s a certain threshold of understanding already crossed. That’s still how much of the world works.
So Desiderius is an unrestricted church minister?!?!?! I guess that’s one way to spread the faith
#126
“to leave you both with a memory that will last a lifetime”
I meant this in a good way BTW – no need for therapy
“1. Messy, blood everywhere, no thank you.
2. Virgins get clingy. They want to see you again, no thank you.
Obviously, it’s sexually experienced men who feel this way.”
My second LTR mate was a virgin when we met. I was VERY concerned, but for these two reasons:
1. I didn’t want to hurt her, and I had heard a few horror stories from other women about how bad their first time was. Of course, I now know that those women chose asshats to deflower them. I’m not surprised it sucked.
2. When I was in my late teens/early 20′s, I firmly believed that “first loves” never work out. I was concerned because I figured being her “first” she would move on quickly. We were together for 4.5 years, so I got over that fear, but never ended up with another virgin.
“So Desiderius is an unrestricted church minister?!?!?! I guess that’s one way to spread the faith”
Susan, can you handle this, or do I need to? Can’t really just let this sit there. It’s so wrong on so many levels.
@TedD
1. asshats, you say? I can see that happening in the maelstrom of emotions about losing the V-card I guess…add in a little dutch courage and Bob’s your uncle; a recipe for mixed emotions the next day.
2. I think that the first time can work, as long as (at least) one of you is keeping a check on reality, not sure how often that happens if you’re both that young…luck may be required, or a lot of cold showers, I guess.
There are so many (crap) comedies about guys desperate to lose their virginity, it never occurred to me that women (NAWALT) might believe that they have the same issue. Losing it wouldn’t seem to be difficult, it’s the not regretting it that I expected to be the issue for women. Ah well, you live and learn at HUS.
1. asshats, you say? I can see that happening in the maelstrom of emotions about losing the V-card I guess…add in a little dutch courage and Bob’s your uncle; a recipe for mixed emotions the next day.
I agree with this sometimes pain is unavoidable and depends on the hymen I had a friend that had to get a doctor with an scalpel because hers was so damn thick that hubby couldn’t do the job. So yeah sometimes the man is not at fault, crazy huh?
@Ana
Surely you know the golden rule?
It’s always the man’s fault, or did you miss feminism 101 in the DR?
It’s always the man’s fault, or did you miss feminism 101 in the DR?
We don’t have gender studies yet, back in DR women need degrees that actually allow them to eat after all no affirmative action or welfare
OTC,
I guess, but then the sentence would read “most women can’t really separate sex from monogamy, while many guys can”… that’s not exactly the meaning I wanted to get across.
Perhaps attachment would be a better word?
I think you need to, as I can’t be sure exactly what response you would make. Or you could ignore her.
@SW
That says more about such men’s disinclination for a LTR or marriage. Even serially monogamous guys would probably feel uncomfortable. But my guess is that for most all long-term oriented young men (50% or more of the population), even non-religious ones, a girl’s V-card isn’t a stigma whatsoever. This obviously doesn’t apply in environments where such men are in the minority (NYC, LA, SF, etc.)
@Desiderius
Tell her what happens to people who dis preachers… Heh
@Just1X
“There are so many (crap) comedies about guys desperate to lose their virginity, it never occurred to me that women (NAWALT) might believe that they have the same issue.”
I’ve been waiting for somebody to do a movie like that about a girl. I think it could make some real money just because it’s uncommon.
“So Desiderius is an unrestricted church minister?!?!?! I guess that’s one way to spread the faith”
“Susan, can you handle this, or do I need to? Can’t really just let this sit there. It’s so wrong on so many levels.”
Desi, chill. It was a joke in good humor. Did you read the comment from a male commenter the other day quoting some “experiences” you’ve had with women and saying, “this from a minister? excuse me while I open my closet and scream”.???
Susan didn’t delete that comment and maybe you didn’t see it.
Anyway, you’ve been pretty open here about your sexual past and it is a bit at odds with what most expect from religious clergy. Maybe all of that was before you become clergy? If so, fair enough.
And if they do, hopefully it won’t feature a girl who is nervous and bumbling and feeds into every stereotype of virgins.
@ Megaman:
In your opinion, what cities might feature long-term oriented men who don’t harbor any stigma against a girl’s V-card, while still offering enough opportunities for said girl’s career?
And if they do, hopefully it won’t feature a girl who is nervous and bumbling and feeds into every stereotype of virgins.
I think this is not an stereotype most of my friends even if it was their wedding night were nervous and bumbling I don’t think is good to present it as nothing happens that only scares the boys more if they happen to have a virgin that actually acts nervous they will assume she might not be ready and bail, YMMV.
@ Just1X:
I think the thing that most (young) people don’t realize is that “keeping it real” is a function of age and maturity, not sexual experience.
@ Anacaona:
I meant nervous and bumbling in personality. You know, Shoshana from Girls. The kind of girl that’s afraid to do much more than kiss a guy.
THAT stereotype. Made me want to whack people with my curling iron.
I meant nervous and bumbling in personality.
Oh okay got it I see what you mean. Not in the bed department but in everything else like the stereotype of the nerd in the basement.
@Say
That’s how the guy virgins are portrayed IME
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