Pre-Wedding Jitters are Common, But Not Benign

A new study has demonstrated a significant link between pre-wedding jitters and the four-year divorce rate, especially for women. This is in keeping with women filing for divorce more frequently than men, even though fewer women than men had doubts about the marriage going in. 

232 recently married couples were interviewed every six months for four years, tracking levels of marital satisfaction and dissolution.  The average age of marriage was 27 for males, 25 for females.

Four-Year Divorce Rate

 

Neither party had doubts (only 1/3 of couples): 6%

Husband only had doubts: 10%

Wife only had doubts: 18%

Both parties had doubts: 20%

Doubts as Predictor of Divorce

  % of Total % Divorced in 4 Years
Men with doubts 47 14
Men without doubts 53 9
Women with doubts 38 19*
Women without doubts 62 8

*Only the female correlation was found to be statistically significant.

The researchers found that the link held even after controlling for the following factors:

  • Divorced parents
  • Stormy engagement
  • Cohabitation before marriage
  • One or more partners neurotic

One limitation of the study was that the nature of doubt was not explored. It is not known whether doubters were uneasy about their choice of partner, or of marriage in general.

In another recent study of 464 newlyweds, researchers tracked marital satisfaction over a four year period.  (The same 232 couples as above, I wonder? I hope not.) They found that after that period, 60% of husbands and 70% of wives considered themselves happy in their marriage. Satisfactions levels did not lessen after the “honeymoon phase.” Rather, the unhappy couples were the ones who reported themselves “not satisfied” from the start. Those couples were 3-4 times more likely to divorce than couples with moderate to high levels of satisfaction.

In a time when popular culture profiles Bridezillas talking about their “first weddings” and couples altering their vows to say “as long as we both shall love,” the implications are clear.

1) Do not marry anyone you have doubts about. In fact, do not get engaged to anyone you have doubts about. 

2) Do not marry anyone you are not head over heels in love with.

3) Do not marry anyone who is not demonstrably head over heels in love with you.

Aside from the tragedy of marrying a person you will not be happy with, the risk to any children, and the risk to men of a misandrist family law tradition, there is also enormous opportunity cost. The minute you marry someone you suspect is not right for you, you take yourself off the market, increase the temptation of infidelity and the likelihood of divorce. 

Don’t do it. Much better to work it out before setting the date. So say the study’s authors:

“Doubt should not simply be dismissed as a normative experience or viewed as something that will go away once partners make a commitment to each other. Rather, feelings of premarital uncertainty should be validated, taken seriously and used as an opportunity for exploration.”

  • Abbot

    Would be useful to see that jitter table graphed over say the past 40 years…

    Hmmmm

  • HanSolo

    It’s interesting how the need to be in love has increased compared with 100 years. As a romantic myself, I want to be mutually in love.

    An interesting anecdote shows the contrast. My friend’s grandma told her, “Today you girls think you need to be in love. Back in my day we didn’t think so much about that. We just asked, ‘Will he treat me well? Can he provide? He can? Well, that’s good enough for me.’”

    I think that with the relative demotion of men, the elevation of women, the unleashed hypergamy in whatever % of women it’s active in, and the elevation in the status, expectation and even need of women to have a career at the expense of marrying a man “too young” have all contributed to making it less likely for women to feel as in love and thrilled about the guy they end up marrying.

    Where much is expected little is appreciated.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I think that with the relative demotion of men, the elevation of women, the unleashed hypergamy in whatever % of women it’s active in, and the elevation in the status, expectation and even need of women to have a career at the expense of marrying a man “too young” have all contributed to making it less likely for women to feel as in love and thrilled about the guy they end up marrying.

      I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?

      And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

  • Ramble

    Do not marry anyone you are not head over heels in love with.

    How would one know whether or not they are head over heels in love?

    Personally, I do not think this will be a problem for me, but, I could definitely see it being a problem for many people.

    Here are a few examples of things people will likely hear before they ever get engaged (or even start dating):
    – Marriage (i.e. love) is hard. It takes a lot of hard work.
    – This notion of “soul mate” is ridiculous. It is a modern invention of the childish.
    – No one is perfect. You need to accept there imperfections just like they need to accept yours.
    – It’s about time you “settle down”.
    – God, that bothers you? A Real Man would be confident enough to not be bothered by that.
    – etc.

    That first example is likely to run counter to at least one married person at HUS. I know that my parents never found that they had to “work” at their marriage.

    This is a hobby horse of mine, but, when a society gets so many mixed, and contrary, messages, much of which is a byproduct of the Culture War, you can expect young people to be confused about what it is they believe and feel.

    And, somewhat to it’s credit, I personally have found that pop culture has done an OK job on this subject. There are more than a few movies and characters that, at one point, will claim to be “in love” and then later on say that they are not sure and they don’t know how they will tell. Granted, it is at this point that you will get some ridiculous feminized, cloyingloy pseudo-romantic definition as to what love is, but, at least they broach the subject that many are not sure what it is they should be experiencing in the first place.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      How would one know whether or not they are head over heels in love?

      I would say the relationship needs to have these features, as described by Helen Fisher:

      Dr. Fisher offers three key components of love, involving different but connected brain systems:

      Lust — driven by androgens and estrogens, the craving for sexual gratification

      Attraction — driven by high dopamine and norepinephrine levels and low serotonin, romantic or passionate love, characterized by euphoria when things are going well, terrible mood swings when they’re not, focused attention, obsessive thinking, and intense craving for the individual

      Attachment — driven by the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin, the sense of calm, peace, and stability one feels with a long-term partner

      My guess is that a lot of people with doubts are marrying without sufficient attachment. The beta provider meme, if you believe in it, suggests that women marry with none of the above. Or perhaps they skip right to attachment? I don’t know if that’s possible…

      In any case, I do not believe anyone should marry who has not experienced all three stages fully.

  • Abbot

    – Marriage (i.e. love) is hard. It takes a lot of hard work.
    – God, that bothers you? A Real Man would be confident enough to not be bothered by that.
    ________________________

    The first one is most certainly compounded by the second one. Women are coming into this as a pre-handful and no man with any sense is going to take all that on. No way. The male doubt-line has hockey-sticked on the graph since 1970 and for very good and acceptable reason.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This is a hobby horse of mine, but, when a society gets so many mixed, and contrary, messages, much of which is a byproduct of the Culture War, you can expect young people to be confused about what it is they believe and feel.

    I will say that many of the problems is that you don;t have marriage models anymore except for the media. Most of my marriage knowledge comes from my own parents and even at this age they still model my idea of what marriage is about with the creation of no fault divorce and the rate this happens, how many people can see how marriage work in real time? And children of divorce do have a highest chance of divorcing themselves. Maybe in the end only the most suitable people for marriage will get and stay marriage and everyone else would be up for grabs. I do wonder how that will reflect in society, it doesn’t seem to be a better deal than what we have before but who knows, time will tell.

  • Ramble

    Maybe in the end only the most suitable people for marriage will get and stay marriage and everyone else would be up for grabs.

    Personally, I don’t lament the consistently dropping marriage rate that we have seen over the last 40 years. What I have seen is that many of the most unfit people for marriage are much more likely to not get married.

    Granted, this reduction in the marriage rate has also seen a rise in illegitimacy and single motherhood, so, it is, currently, a mixed bag.

  • Plain Jane

    Off topic (only slightly) but here’s the teaser trailer for the forthcoming 50 Shades of Grey movie

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1tnLj2aJmE&feature=related

    First EPL, then Magic Mike, now this. The Manosphere will explode. LOL!

  • Sai


    My parents split when I was 10. They get along OK to this day, but… I guess I better make sure my self-discipline stays high my whole life. Even if I have to visit a boot camp to keep it that way.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Personally, I don’t lament the consistently dropping marriage rate that we have seen over the last 40 years. What I have seen is that many of the most unfit people for marriage are much more likely to not get married.

    Do you have children? The problem with having marriage being something only the elites have is that reduce the pool for our kids to pick good prospects if people only believe in serial monogamy this will create even more willing participants so for our kids it will be harder to find suitable mates. Imagine if only 85% of women now (to use Susan’s imaginary number) can be good wives, how many will it be in 20 years time? And trust me the impulse of reproduction won’t go away. As Ted probably can see and I saw in my own culture people will pick the best of what is available so we will end up with a very small elite of married people that will enjoy the benefits of it and a HUGE population whether single or practicing serial monogamy, repeating the cycle. But who knows maybe 20 years from now having a daughter with five children of different fathers or having a son that has never dated or that has 8 baby mamas would be common Christmas’s conversation. Who knows

  • Ramble

    Do you have children?

    Not yet.

    The problem with having marriage being something only the elites have is that reduce the pool for our kids to pick good prospects if people only believe in serial monogamy this will create even more willing participants so for our kids it will be harder to find suitable mates. Imagine if only 85% of women now (to use Susan’s imaginary number) can be good wives, how many will it be in 20 years time? And trust me the impulse of reproduction won’t go away. As Ted probably can see …

    This is a big subject and a proper answer would take way too long. So, in short, the answer is: Shaming.

    If the UMC (forget the “Elites”, they are gone) has any interest in having the unwashed masses live according to morals that are needed to maintain a modern western culture, they will need to start shaming those that go off the reservation.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    This is a big subject and a proper answer would take way too long. So, in short, the answer is: Shaming.

    Shame has been shamed out of the modern world. No answers there.

    If the UMC (forget the “Elites”, they are gone) has any interest in having the unwashed masses live according to morals that are needed to maintain a modern western culture, they will need to start shaming those that go off the reservation.

    Mmm but do they want the masses to live according to their morals? Maybe we are getting everything wrong and this destructive SMP is actually the best for the top. I mean how did royalty lived when 99% of the population was too busy trying to survive to think? Obviously now that food and other basic needs are guaranteed making the secondary needs like sex and companionship, this huge mess causes a similar effect, and creating apathy for permanent relationships and children won’t breed any revolutions. I wouldn’t be so sure they actually care enough after all it doesn’t affect them and might benefit them, divorce create poverty and the middle class will keep shrinking, the only competition elite has is middle class the more poor people the best for them to keep themselves isolated and wealthy, just thinking out loud.

  • Ramble

    Shame has been shamed out of the modern world. No answers there.

    I’m not arguing with that, I am simply saying what I believe the actual answer would be if anyone would want to employ it.

    Maybe we are getting everything wrong and this destructive SMP is actually the best for the top. I mean how did royalty lived when 99% of the population was too busy trying to survive to think? … I wouldn’t be so sure they actually care enough after all it doesn’t affect them and might benefit them, divorce create poverty and the middle class will keep shrinking, the only competition elite has is middle class the more poor people the best for them to keep themselves isolated and wealthy, just thinking out loud.

    You know, I was honestly just about to amend my answer to say that other than shaming, the UMC could go about erecting very tall fences to somewhat isolate themselves. And this is basically what we are already seeing in Manhattan, Malibu and Miami Beach (and San Fran, Georgetown, etc.).

    However, this is much harder for the UMC than it is for the UC.

  • Ramble

    One more thing, don’t write off shaming just yet. It is still quite hard to predict what will happen once the boomers really do start dying off. A large percentage of the middle and (growing) lower-middle class are not smart enough to know that you should not shame.

    I am absolutely confident that PC will not last forever.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      One more thing, don’t write off shaming just yet. It is still quite hard to predict what will happen once the boomers really do start dying off. A large percentage of the middle and (growing) lower-middle class are not smart enough to know that you should not shame.

      I’ve come to believe that shaming is not the answer. It attacks individuals for behaviors, but not the underlying beliefs that drive behaviors. So you can shame women (and even men) for promiscuity, but you still have a culture that promotes sex as empowering for women. It’s like trying to pick off jihadists one by one. There’s always a new crop rising up to fill those spaces.

      Exposing the truth about what casual sex feels like for most people (bad) provides incentives and support for not engaging in it. Oh, your head is bloody and painful because you are slamming it against this brick wall? OK, you can stop doing that now.

      Concurrently, encouraging people to strategically pursue what they want, and providing tools and support to implement those strategies, shifts things in a different direction.

      That’s my theory anyway. And that’s the strategic direction for HUS.

  • Just1X

    I got married thinking that I loved the woman. I thought that what I felt was ‘it’. It’s only fifteen years later that I know what I should have felt.

    sad but true

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I got married thinking that I loved the woman. I thought that what I felt was ‘it’. It’s only fifteen years later that I know what I should have felt.

      sad but true

      That is so sad. The prevalence of the Principle of Least Interest in relationships has people scrambling for crumbs of affection, even feeling elated when someone reluctantly acquiesces to their ultimatum re commitment.

      Maybe we really need to say: This is what it should look like. Hold out for it.

      Also, you mention what you felt, but we need to give young people a way of judging accurately how their partner feels about them.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You know, I was honestly just about to amend my answer to say that other than shaming, the UMC could go about erecting very tall fences to somewhat isolate themselves. And this is basically what we are already seeing in Manhattan, Malibu and Miami Beach (and San Fran, Georgetown, etc.).

    I see that a lot in my new neighborhood gated communities seem to be growing and becoming more attractive. I do wonder how is life in it, and if they members do assortative mating or they are looking outside. It would be interesting to know if they have SMP bubbles there.

    One more thing, don’t write off shaming just yet. It is still quite hard to predict what will happen once the boomers really do start dying off.

    True I had forgotten this variable. I read the fourth turning but it was hard for me to understand since we don’t have generations in my culture we pretty much reproduce at irregular rates, but there is the influence of the boomers really to take in account and it seems that the eXers hates their guts so is unlikely they will follow whatever they started…not sure how millennial feel about them though. Again generations are challenging for me.

    I am absolutely confident that PC will not last forever.

    True but it has lasted long enough, interestingly enough I was watching some Big Bang Theory videos and they mentioned negs in one episode (of course it was Howard) of course mainstream makes fun of the most basic Game contents but it has grown if they mock it in pop TV, xkcd also had this one mocking it too. So things are moving slowly but they are moving. I just hope all this unravels more clearly before my kids hit puberty.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Just1X,

    “I got married thinking that I loved the woman. I thought that what I felt was ‘it’. It’s only fifteen years later that I know what I should have felt.”

    Would you care to explain further? I am not sure I understand the phrase ‘what I should have felt’.
    What did you feel and why was it so ‘wrong’ fifteen years later? Sorry to be nosey…but I am sure your answer would greatly help me…
    Thanks mate!

  • Just1X

    @JT

    I’ll try again.

    I believed I was in love at the time, or I wouldn’t have got married (there were no external pressures or reasons). If there had been a dictionary definition of ‘feelings wot Just1X would have if he were in luv’, I now believe that I would not have met the definition. I wouldn’t have got married. I did the best I could with the decision*, but I borked it.

    I didn’t have any doubts at the time, I don’t hold myself primarily responsible for the subsequent divorce, though I believe that there’s always enough blame to share around in a divorce.

    More recently, things have got ‘interesting’, my feelings are stronger this time, but I don’t know what will happen as there are complications on her side. Given that there is no such thing as true anonymity, that’s all I’m going to say. Sooner, or later, she would discover that I am Just1X on HUS. Whatever happens, the experience has changed my attitude to life, I’m not going to fit back as an MGTOW quite as well if ‘she’ doesn’t work out.

    TL;DR Even with the best of intentions, you can mistakenly believe that you are love when you probably aren’t.

    * – INTj personality over here, particularly the ‘T’ (33/66/75/1).

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Ana.

    But who knows maybe 20 years from now having a daughter with five children of different fathers or having a son that has never dated or that has 8 baby mamas would be common Christmas’s conversation. Who knows

    One my friends used to work in IT. He really is a nice guy. So while he was doing his job, his mother used to nag him to get a girlfriend. He never did. And she was on his case constantly. But my friend really hated his job. So he quit and is working from home. So what’s his mother doing now ?

    Nagging him to get a job.

    Go figure.

    Anyway Ana, how many mothers have you seen, that’s worried about their sons not dating ?

  • Abbot

    “I am absolutely confident that PC will not last forever.”

    That is not good news for the so-called “living life on her own terms sexually equal” gaggle of women since this small blip of non-shaming is all that keeps them feeling good about their behavior

  • Abbot

    “why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”

    Because women on average have much more exposure to practice wedding nights aka pump n dump nuptials thus rubbing away that bubbly gaga doe-eyed heart capturing quality that give men confidence.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    I believe that I borked the italics in #17. Just after ‘primarily’.

    A theory that I heard was that women love the idea of the marriage ceremony more than being married. Princess for a day – great! Daily grind after a few years – oh noes! You live with a guy for a few years, have your perfect day…and then back to normal. Wasn’t something supposed to change?

    If you add in the theory that they get married on the b/c pill, then after a few years the couple decides that it’s time for kidlets – she comes off the pill…and her taste in men changes because of the hormonal changes… he isn’t enough of a stud for her new mating requirements. This timing ties in with the oxytocin (iirc) bonding fading as well – double whammy?

    All anecdotal, but as neither theory is very inflammatory, I thought I’d put them out there.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      A theory that I heard was that women love the idea of the marriage ceremony more than being married. Princess for a day – great! Daily grind after a few years – oh noes! You live with a guy for a few years, have your perfect day…and then back to normal. Wasn’t something supposed to change?

      Yeah, the Bridezilla thing is huge and is also a huge red flag. If I were a guy, I would insist on a small, simple wedding. If she couldn’t accept that, I’d balk.

      If you add in the theory that they get married on the b/c pill, then after a few years the couple decides that it’s time for kidlets – she comes off the pill…and her taste in men changes because of the hormonal changes… he isn’t enough of a stud for her new mating requirements. This timing ties in with the oxytocin (iirc) bonding fading as well – double whammy?

      This is a real and serious problem. I heard a radio program where a couples therapist was saying a lot of her clients are facing this exact problem. Helen Fisher says NEVER marry before the woman has been off the Pill for a minimum of six months. I’d go further and say no engagement until that has happened.

  • Escoffier

    – My marriage is not hard work.
    – This notion of “soul mate” IS ridiculous; get over it.
    – No one is perfect. You need to accept there imperfections just like they need to accept yours. Damn right.
    – “Settle down” when you want to, IF you want to, with whom you want to. Or don’t. It’s up to you.
    – You have every right to be bothered by that.

    Those are the correct answers.

  • Escoffier

    The UMC is quite good at errecting virtual fences and will get better at as necessity requires it, I expect.

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    – My marriage is not hard work.
    – This notion of “soul mate” IS ridiculous; get over it.
    – No one is perfect. You need to accept there imperfections just like they need to accept yours. Damn right.
    – “Settle down” when you want to, IF you want to, with whom you want to. Or don’t. It’s up to you.
    – You have every right to be bothered by that.

    Hell yes!

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Yeah, the Bridezilla thing is huge and is also a huge red flag. If I were a guy, I would insist on a small, simple wedding. If she couldn’t accept that, I’d balk.

    Worked wonders for me, we both agreed to handle it that way. Paid for it out of pocket ourselves, small and simple is a perfect description. And then moved into a small, rented apartment together.

    I’ve noticed that frugality in both parties is a major compatibility plus. The opposite certainly isn’t true IMO.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      If the bride’s father is not picking up the tab, a big party makes no sense. Much better to invest that money.

      The engagement ring is another potential minefield. I know a couple, both 29, they’ve been together for 7 years. The engagement is being delayed because he doesn’t want to propose until he can get her a ring with a diamond of at least 1 carat. WTF. In this case, she doesn’t even care, he is the one who is insisting!

      I have a friend who asks for expensive jewelry for gifts from her husband. She picks it out, then lets him know where he can buy it. Mr. HUS is a very thoughtful gift giver, but money is never the determinant. I’ve received small books and more elaborate gifts – there is no rhyme or reason, but the gift is always something he thinks I would love. A hardback by my favorite writer is all I want for my birthday this month (Tom Wolfe’s book comes out Oct. 23!). I cannot even imagine telling him it’s Tiffany’s or nothing. Ugh.

  • Tom

    Abott
    “I am absolutely confident that PC will not last forever.”

    That is not good news for the so-called “living life on her own terms sexually equal” gaggle of women since this small blip of non-shaming is all that keeps them feeling good about their behavior
    ________________
    Not so sure most of the women do feel good about being promiscuous. I think they may at first find it fun, or self esteem boosting, with the attention they get. But many start to feel they need to get laid just to get that boost, sort of like cocain. It starts to have the opposite effect on them. That is why we see most of them “want to reform.” They learn the hard way, that life style is a dead end, not going to lend to their happiness afterall. The hard core sluts never learn. A lot of good women temporarely buy the feminist BS about how great it is to have sex like a man. I`m sure some get somewhat jaded if it goes on a long time, but the ones who find out pretty soon it is not for them come out pretty ok. Ive never thought it is a great idea for women to sleep around alot, but the fact of the matter is, some will.

  • Escoffier

    RE: jitters, so, when we were in grad school I got offered a very good job in another city. I said to my then GF, I want you to come with me. She said, I will, but we have to be married. We had no time to plan anything, so we took a trip to the big city with my parents and some friends and arranged a City Hall wedding. The night before I was freaking out and my dad got so nervous about it he took me down to the lobby and said “Are you sure you want to do this?” He was really worried I was making a mistake, not in marrying her, they liked her, but that I was just not ready or not convinced. The thing is, I was totally conviced but I was freaking out anyway. I told him it would be OK, and yes I still wanted to do it.

    I did not sleep at all that night. We got married the next morning as planned. Then we moved and I started my job.

    The following summer we had a nice formal wedding in the Mission in my home town. It’s worked out so far.

  • Escoffier

    I think my wife’s ring is like 1/3 carat. It does maker her stand out in our little ‘burb where all the mommies have big rocks.

    BTW, we didn’t even buy it until after the first wedding, though she had it for the second.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think my wife’s ring is like 1/3 carat. It does maker her stand out in our little ‘burb where all the mommies have big rocks.

      A lot of the women at my gym have such large wedding/engagement ring combinations is takes up room on their finger all the way to the first knuckle. I see it as very vulgar. I am a reverse snob that way.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Escoffier

    How do you reconcile Helen Fisher’s three conditions (mentioned by Suzan) with your maxim of there not being a soulmate ?

    Is love then nothing else but a distorted reproductive instinct of humans ?

    And if so, does a marriage then bring relief from it ?

  • Escoffier

    I don’t know. My wife and I are very compatible but the idea that she is my “soulmate” created by God or fate just for me is what I find absurd. I’m sure I could have married someone else and been quite happy. It just so happens that she is one of those people and I found her first.

    That’s not very romantic I know but let’s be honest, we’re only ever going to marry people we come in contact with, which rules out 99.9999% of the human race. So, is nature so efficient that it just happens to plant the “soulmates” of 7 billion people within each person’s field of vision, unerringly? It’s silly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m with Escoffier. I actually believe there are hundreds of men, maybe thousands, with whom I might have had lust, love and attachment. I almost chose another b-school over Wharton – it was ranked higher. I wouldn’t have met my husband if I’d gone there, obviously. We play the hands we’re dealt, but there isn’t just one winning hand.

  • Tom

    “why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”
    _______________
    I have another, much deeper explanation.This generation has a different sense of self esteem than prior generations. Back in the day, only the champoins of the little league got the trophy. Now, so not to hurt anyone`s feelings, “everyone” gets a trophy. What kind of message is that sending? They have done away with dodge ball, not because of injury, but because it hurts little Bobby`s feelings when he is put “out.” There are a lot of examples non sport related, but you get the idea. A sense of entitlement and noncompetition has been instilled into our youth. They do not know how to compete any more. They act a lot like how women have been brought up. Now women seem to want to compete and the men do not. This could be a reason why a lot of fortune 500 companies like to recruit athletes, both genders, they know how to compete and understand team work. Where it seems to be lost on most of the other young people.

  • Tom

    @ Escoffier

    – My marriage is not hard work.
    – This notion of “soul mate” IS ridiculous; get over it.
    – No one is perfect. You need to accept there imperfections just like they need to accept yours. Damn right.
    – “Settle down” when you want to, IF you want to, with whom you want to. Or don’t. It’s up to you.
    – You have every right to be bothered by that
    ________
    Totally agree…

  • Escoffier

    Yeah, the summer before my wife arrived at our grad school I got offered a job in New York. I was really excited by it and tempted to take it but my professor/advisor talked me out of it. Had I gone through with it as I intended, I would never have met her.

    Soul mate?

  • Tom

    Lust is an animal emotion, love is more on the decision side. IMO

  • Just1X

    @Susan #25

    I had the right feelings, but in retrospect, it was the strength of them that fell short. A quantitative problem due to poor calibration. (INTj yeah?)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?

    And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

    I would blame the self-esteem movement, and general media messages that tell women to do things on a whim and not consider the long term consequences. The feminist sex-pozzie culture is simply one manifestation of this. Because of it, I’d venture that women are both more likely to go into a marriage without consider the consequences, and then when things go wrong to get out of the marriage without trying to make things work.

    Men have certainly been affected by this “me” culture too, but not to the extent women have.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Because of it, I’d venture that women are both more likely to go into a marriage without consider the consequences, and then when things go wrong to get out of the marriage without trying to make things work.

      So you’re saying that women who don’t have doubts are the real problem, because they haven’t thought it through?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    The engagement ring is another potential minefield.

    Additionally, many guys (erroneously IMO) used to believe they needed to own a nice house before women would consider marrying them. I wonder if that played a part in the housing bubble bursting just a little bit? Even in the current market with relatively low prices, it’s just not feasible for young people to be able to afford real estate in places like California, New York, and other populous states.

    Yes, I’ve heard similar stories WRT to expensive jewelry. We dodged that bullet, too. Simple bands, inscribed with both our initials on the inside, that’s it. No gems or precious stones. My wife never felt she needed to show off anything (except me, I guess, though I can’t understan why). I landed a tall blonde who loves sports and hates shopping. Lucky or smart? Maybe some of both? :idea:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I landed a tall blonde who loves sports and hates shopping. Lucky or smart? Maybe some of both?

      I’d say definitely some of both, and add in her smarts for choosing you.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan

    True, there is more than one winning hand … and hence we’re all at the mercy of him that deals the cards … so you must either be lucky, or know how to play the game … sad really.

    And don’t forget the crowd that can only watch.

  • Abbot

    “They learn the hard way”

    For most its a lesson to last a lifetime

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?

    And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

    Three thoughts on your first question, all SPECULATION but probably offer some food for thought:

    1) What is meant by the definition of doubts in the minds of the recipients?

    Are all doubts of the same importance? Are they serious or not? If most of the male doubters had mild doubt while most of the doubtresses had stronger doubt that could be a possible explanation. Having more specificity in the questions asked and the data reported would be very helpful for our purposes, as we often see in these kind of studies.
    ——————————-

    2) Difference in male and female thought and emotional patterns and processes.

    I think a man considering marriage is going to rationally weigh the pros and cons a bit more than women, on average. Women will tend to go a bit more on how they feel. Now, the woman will have doubts that she doesn’t feel sure enough (as may the man to a lesser extent) and, of course, she will also rationally weigh the pros and the cons but to a lesser extent than the man. I think that where the real difference comes in is that the man may be more likely to recognize he has certain doubts but still think and feel that he is making the right decision whereas once the woman decides to go ahead with it that she will feel like maintaining any doubt is being disloyal or unpleasant and will subconsciously repress that. Another related possibility is that women won’t agree to marriage unless their emotional (and to a lesser extent logical) surety is sufficiently strong while the man (same explanation as above) places more weight on his logical decision that had, say, 7 pros and 3 cons/doubts but he’s fine with that. Ted’s description of how he had to weigh his wife’s present compatible nature with certain distasteful (to him) elements from her past comes to mind.

    I know I have talked with male friends about my doubts about a girl I wanted to LTR or was in an LTR with and they seem more understanding whereas when I talk with a female friend it seems like even mentioning any doubts or negatives makes her more likely to assume I don’t really like her and wonder why I’m even dating her, i.e. the female friends seem less likely to understand and accept how I can be in love with a girl and yet
    recognize the cons/doubts. I do have female friends who have doubts about their LTR too but stay in because overall it’s good or they’re scared of being alone or don’t like change.

    I personally have been really in love with 4 women in my life and wanted to marry them. 2 were gf’s and 2 were not. With the 2 gf’s, I was highly in love with each but because it seemed more possible to marry them I began to analyze seriously and had doubts (not deal breakers) about each but would have happily married them anyway. However, 2 were more friends, where we went out a half dozen times or so, and never were in an LTR and so with them the thought of marriage was more in the fantasy realm and I didn’t have too many doubts because it wasn’t a serious possibility. I have no doubt that if it had become a serious possibility I would have begun to analyze the pros and cons and had doubts.
    —————————————

    3) Men settling more?

    I personally believe that very roughly (and I’m making up the specific numbers so feel free to let them vary to fit your perception of reality better) ~10% of women are hypogamous due to low self esteem and are attracted to “lower-status-than themselves” losers on one hand or betas that will be faithful, ~50% are mainly isogamous and have tastes that allow them to, always or eventually as they age, fall in love with someone of their own MMV, and ~40% are more hypergamous and would prefer someone of higher MMV.

    With hypergamy unleashed to some extent, I can see that this would tip the balance somewhat so that although most marriages are still of roughly equal MMV of the ones involving different MMV’s a greater % of the marriages has the man with a slightly higher MMV than the woman. This slight settling on his part will make him feel more doubts. The more hypergamous women will marry less frequently because it is harder or them to marriage-attract anyone good enough.

    Let me know what you think.

  • HanSolo

    @Escoffier 34

    You married her twice? Or was one civil and another one religious?

  • HanSolo

    @Tom 38

    I agree with your point that people today expect more. Related to this they also have the perception and, to some extent, the reality of more options, both in partners and work and life path and this can add to the doubts. I agree that many boys and men have become more feminine and women more masculine. I’m not sure if that makes men doubt more than women at marriage…can you explain more as to why that would be?

  • HanSolo

    @HanSolo 48

    I want to clarify point 3. I think that the man being of slightly higher MMV will more likely occur in the 4-7 range whereas for the 8-10 range you will get some cases where a 9 woman has to marry an 8 man because of a high % of male 9 players.

  • Ted D

    Ana – “Imagine if only 85% of women now (to use Susan’s imaginary number) can be good wives, how many will it be in 20 years time? And trust me the impulse of reproduction won’t go away. As Ted probably can see …”

    You’ve just summed up one of my primary reasons for being so “extremist” on this subject. I’m tired of everyone saying ‘it isn’t THAT bad” because it CAN get much worse.

    Ramble – “If the UMC (forget the “Elites”, they are gone) has any interest in having the unwashed masses live according to morals that are needed to maintain a modern western culture, they will need to start shaming those that go off the reservation”

    It may not help your case, but… Cosigned!

    “You know, I was honestly just about to amend my answer to say that other than shaming, the UMC could go about erecting very tall fences to somewhat isolate themselves. And this is basically what we are already seeing in Manhattan, Malibu and Miami Beach (and San Fran, Georgetown, etc.).”

    The conspiracy theorist in me has wondered about this many, many times. Is this really just a plot by the elite to control the masses? It seems rather random and chaotic, but to “control” the masses, all you need is for them to be distracted on other issue they deem as more important…

    I should start making some aluminum hats.

    Susan – “I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”

    Because legally they KNOW they have more to lose?…

    “And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce?”

    Because generally they have everything to gain? For sure they’ll lose “some” income, but they can walk away with half their stuff, and if there are kids involved she will get that income for years to come. And if she has her own career? She may get her freedom back and have little financial loss to show for it. And hell, she can always pick up another guy to fill in that loss, right?

    “I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?”

    There are others. For instance, it is socially acceptable for a woman to divorce for any number of frivolous reasons, as discussed in other posts. Women are very much supported by society with divorce, while men are shamed and beaten down for it. Even if the woman is “at fault” (lest say she cheated) society doesn’t punish her (no shame, remember?) and the guy is still left with less money and the loss of his family (if kids are involved). And that’s even before adding in that the BEST support he will get from society is a few guys empathizing with his plight. Add TO that the financial reasons AND gaining back her “freedom”, and I fully believe that society actually promotes divorce to women in many, many ways.

    “My guess is that a lot of people with doubts are marrying without sufficient attachment. The beta provider meme, if you believe in it, suggests that women marry with none of the above. Or perhaps they skip right to attachment? I don’t know if that’s possible…”

    I think in many cases they do skip right to attachment, and they do it by reasoning. “well, he is a really great guy. Very nice. Treats me SO well. And my mom thinks he will make a great dad. I want kids, and I’m getting older… I’m just silly for not “feeling” this. In fact, maybe I AM feeling it, but it is SO different than all my last relationships that I don’t realize it?!”

    I fully believe that my ex-wife talked herself into marriage with me by a similar process. In her case, she already had a child and knew her prospects were slim. I was young and stupid, but I can see looking back she had doubts the entire time we were engaged. I believe she was attracted to me, but my mistake was believing she was attracted to me because I was a safe bet, when in fact she probably saw my band activity as a sign of alpha badness. It isn’t. I do music for myself, not because I like to be in the limelight. In fact, I tended to find somewhere to hide between sets so I didn’t have to deal with people. LOL

    Just1X – “A theory that I heard was that women love the idea of the marriage ceremony more than being married. Princess for a day – great!”

    I think this is primarily a MC and up issue. Bridezilla’s is a prime example. When financial gain isn’t as big a concern, then vanity and the desire to be ‘special’ kicks in instead.

    “I had the right feelings, but in retrospect, it was the strength of them that fell short. A quantitative problem due to poor calibration. (INTj yeah?)”

    ROFL. Man, you just described how I felt two months prior to my first wedding. I had all of those feelings, but they were FAR too weak to last. In some ways, I did talk myself into getting married as well as she did. I simply did it by checking for what I thought was necessary, and crossing it off the list. I didn’t actually think about how STRONGLY I felt those particular things though, as I figured the total sum would be plenty.

    Tom – @ 31 – Man, I’m 100% on board with this post. Now the question is: how do we get to the majority of these women BEFORE they “learn the hard way” that promiscuity is a losing bet?

    INTJ – “I’d venture that women are both more likely to go into a marriage without consider the consequences, and then when things go wrong to get out of the marriage without trying to make things work.”

    Yep. Or put another way, women are far quicker to simply react to short term feelings, good or bad.

    MM – “Yes, I’ve heard similar stories WRT to expensive jewelry. We dodged that bullet, too. “

    My wife actually yanked the diamond out of her first engagement ring, and we invested in a really nice (but affordable) setting. So not only did we use some of her exes child support money to get married (nothing in the law says we can’t, and in our household ALL income goes into the same shared account for whatever is necessary) but we used the money HE spent on her first ring. I don’t remember the total carat size, but it appraised at just under 5k. We paid much, MUCH less than that. My band cost just over $100, and hers twice as much. Total we probably spent $800 or less for all three rings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      “I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”

      Because legally they KNOW they have more to lose?…

      Makes sense – that also would support fewer divorces initiated by men, if their doubts were related to fear of divorce. OTOH, quite a few men with doubts did divorce as well.

      Because generally they have everything to gain? For sure they’ll lose “some” income, but they can walk away with half their stuff, and if there are kids involved she will get that income for years to come. And if she has her own career? She may get her freedom back and have little financial loss to show for it. And hell, she can always pick up another guy to fill in that loss, right?

      This is not very convincing.

      They lose all their husband’s income unless they get alimony. How common is alimony these days, and at what level?

      Walk away with half their stuff? So does the guy, right? That’s not a net gain for the woman.

      Child support is for the children, not her. She should not gain financially.

      If a woman has her own career, she can leave a marriage if she wants to. In the past, unhappy women had no choice but to stay due to their dependence on a man.

      I don’t know how confident women feel about their ability to find an immediate replacement in general. The women I have known in this boat are not at all confident, with good reason. It’s very tough to be a 40 yo single woman, as we know.

      I think in many cases they do skip right to attachment, and they do it by reasoning. “well, he is a really great guy. Very nice. Treats me SO well. And my mom thinks he will make a great dad. I want kids, and I’m getting older… I’m just silly for not “feeling” this. In fact, maybe I AM feeling it, but it is SO different than all my last relationships that I don’t realize it?!”

      That’s an attempt to attach, I guess, but not a successful one. I do not believe that attachment can occur without falling in love first. At least, that’s how Fisher presents it.

      So not only did we use some of her exes child support money to get married (nothing in the law says we can’t)

      You realize that MRAs want to tar and feather women who do this, right?

  • J

    @Ana #11

    My sense of what actually happened, at least in America, was the children of the UMC began to claim freedoms that they were well enough equipped to handle but that the lower classes weren’t. For example, Richie Rich wanted the freedom to sample marijuana, smoked some pot in college, ans law school, and then put threw out the bong when he joined a firm. Willy Workingclass also smoked some pot during youth but still shows up high everyday to his factory job. Mary Middleclass wanted to have premarital sex with her bf because marriage was “just a piece of paper.” She did; they eventually married; now she’s a suburban 55 year old grandmother. Wanda Welfare claimed that same freedom but didn’t have any other goals but motherhood. She became a grandmother for the first time at 36. At 55, she has a couple of great-grandchildren.

    For many reasons, ranging from catching more breaks to having more self-restraint, UMC folks are better able to handle to the freedoms they demanded when they started to dismantle the social structure that existed in the early 60s. They recreated a society that fit their needs, never believing that others were not their equals and would be affected differently.

  • Abbot

    “how do we get to the majority of these women BEFORE they “learn the hard way” that promiscuity is a losing bet?”

    That starts with better parents, the supremely main culprit.
    That losing bet is a double whammy – they feel like shit for going against their nature/buying the party line AND really feel like shit when very few men want to hear their “redemption” story. No blame goes to men here. NONE and rightfully so…

  • J

    @Just1X

    I believed I was in love at the time, or I wouldn’t have got married (there were no external pressures or reasons). If there had been a dictionary definition of ‘feelings wot Just1X would have if he were in luv’, I now believe that I would not have met the definition. I wouldn’t have got married. I did the best I could with the decision*, but I borked it.

    That’s not uncommon, or–shall I say, bucking the pro-shame tenor of this thread–anything to be ashamed of. A person can grow and change a lot in 15 years. It’s possible that the meaning of love will change again for you; I know that I want different things from my marriage then I did 25 years ago. If you look at marriage through Helen Fischer’s lens, the dopamine love that pulls us into marriage is not the same oxytocin/vasopressin love that creates a lifelong attachment. Truly lucky people have the firstsort of love mellow into the second and can remain happily married for life. That it didn’t happen for you with your ex doesn’t mean you “borked it.”

  • Ted D

    Abbot – “That starts with better parents, the supremely main culprit.”

    While I agree with you, that can’t be the only answer, because it simply isn’t something that can be changed now. In a generation? Sure, IF we get the message out there quickly, the kids of today MAY be better parents. But, waiting for that is like waiting for the ocean to dry up. It may happen someday, but it won’t happen any day soon.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    So you’re saying that women who don’t have doubts are the real problem, because they haven’t thought it through?

    Not exactly. It’s more a matter of long-term vs short-term thinking. Some women might not think about the long-term altogether, but I’d guess that most women do think about the long-term and this can manifest itself as doubts in the back of the head. Many don’t pay attention to these doubts and choose to “live in the moment”.

  • Ted D

    J – “That it didn’t happen for you with your ex doesn’t mean you “borked it.””

    eh. To me it does, and I’m guilty as charged myself. I should have chosen better, I should have been more mature, I shouldn’t have even considered societal and familiar pressure. The list of things I did wrong is long and complicated. But, the short version really is simple: I borked it up badly.

  • J

    @Marellus

    Anyway Ana, how many mothers have you seen, that’s worried about their sons not dating ?

    As a mother of teenage sons who spends a lot of time talking to other moms, I can say that, no matter what the kid is doing, mom is worried. Not dating at all? What’s wrong? Is he lonely? Is he gay? Going intensely with one girl? Are they having sex? Are they using birth control? What if that little bitch gets pregnant and ruins his life? Dating a bunch of girls? What if he never settles down? Hanging in a mixed crowd, but not really dating? How come these kids don’t date like we used to? Mothers worry a lot about what’s normal and want their kid to be happy and normal.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

    Some thoughts, not particularly original, to hopefully stimulate further conversation:

    1) Serial monogamy to get greater genetic variety as put forth by Helen Fisher and others.

    2) They get bored, unhappy, etc. (some of this is there own fault, some the husband’s, and even where both are doing their part the romance and lust diminishes).

    3) In the West and certain other Asian countries we live in unprecedented prosperity compared with any other period in history. This is in spite of high unemployment and the general bitching that people can now only afford one car instead of two. Plus with the enforced favorable child support, getting half the wealth for women that didn’t make as much, and welfare support for the poor, the financial disincentives are very low for women to avoid divorce.

    4) It’s not logical to think this way but women may think back to their days before marriage and remember all the attention they got and think it will still be there. If they haven’t had kids and it’s only been a few years then it’s not such a bad assumption.

    5) Average men have been taught they have to sacrifice for their wife and stick with the marriage (cue Ted, M3 (or whatever his name is), and others) while women have been told they can have it all. The exception would be some religious women who are taught the same and believe it.

    6) Average men can’t get laid easily and don’t want to give up the sex (even if less than they want) or hope of it upon reconciliation they’re getting with their wife.

    7) Men don’t want to give up their kids and money in terms of child support and 50/50 split in cases where they earned more so men file less.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      That’s a great list of incentives for women to divorce. Thanks.

  • Lokland

    @Esc

    Me and my wife shared a similar story. Three separate weddings, one civil for immigration (with a whopping 2 witnesses), two religious on each side of the ocean.

    Plane tickets for family members were nearly as expensive as all three ceremonies combined.

    @Susan, Esc

    I’m in the same boat as you two. I’m happy I found my wife and now I wouldn’t consider another. I have no doubt that in a different life someone else would have suited me just as well.

    On the other hand, the chances of us meeting were literally astronomically small which makes the meant to be line of thought quite warming inside.

  • Lokland

    Knew I forgot something.

    Before out first ceremony (civil) we were in the car all dressed up and about 10 mins out my heart literally dropped. I was ready to freak out. Sitting next to me she was having much the same feeling.

    Nerves are not the same as doubt.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      Nerves are not the same as doubt.

      I’m so glad you pointed this out. Big changes are stressful and scary, and marriage is a very big change. That’s not the same as wondering if you want to be married at all, or married to that particular person.

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    Knew I forgot something.

    Before out first ceremony (civil) we were in the car all dressed up and about 10 mins out my heart literally dropped. I was ready to freak out. Sitting next to me she was having much the same feeling.

    Nerves are not the same as doubt.

    Exactly. It’s natural to be apprehensive about a major turning point in your life. That doesn’t mean you doubt it’s the right thing.

  • Escoffier

    Ted, it’s not a conspiracy per se. However …

    The UMC, which is basically the high priced valets for the Davos overclass, does routinely team up with their masters to push policies that benefit the top and the bottom at the expense of the middle. Or at least that benefit the top at the expense of the middle, then to assuage their guilt and to status preen they do other things to “help” the bottom which may or may not help but which at least makes them look altruistic and which satisfies a certain longing to believe they are modern incarnations of noblesse oblige.

    Neither the UMC nor the overclass cares one whit about the middle or working classes, except for those who make into the elite schools. Then they want their brainpower and other good habits for their industries, and/or if they are non-white or Asian, they want them for the photo ops and again to satisfy their sense of superior morality.

    When you gently point out what some of these policies are doing to middle and working class communities, what you mostly get are blank stares or denial. The smarter and more idealistic ones will respond “I know how to fix that with policy X, Y, and Z!” What you will never get is an acknowledgement that the macro policies which they pursue for their own benefit and enrichment have had any negative effect on the middle.

    At most you will get a sad assertion that great impersonal and unstoppable trends caused all that and the remedy is more of the same because “we know what works.” A handful of times, when I have really pressed the point, I have had people say to me in effect “So what if one guy in Pittsburg gets laid off of ten people in rural China rise up from poverty. That’s a net plus for the world.” When I point out that the dude in Pittsburg is their fellow citizen whereas the people in China are not, they look at me like I just said the earth is flat. Who thinks in terms of countries and citizenship anymore? They feel absolutely no bonds of obligation or loyalty to their fellow countrymen qua countrymen.

    RE: sexual morality: the SR has complicated roots, but it was popularized by two groups, the feminists and the elite intellectuals, in the name of “Freedom.” The UMC mostly embraced it and then realized it wasn’t working out so they stopped or at least slowed. They are personally quite conservative these days though it remains to be seen how long that can last with hook-up so prevalent and so culturally dominant even if only a minority practice it with gusto.

    The problem is that the UMC is intellectually defenseless to preach what it practices. It has not thought through the issue at all but it has been propagandized since birth in certain relativistic ideas and very few individuals ever overcome that. So they see what works by example and mostly behave themselves, certainly after a certain age (no later than the late 20s usually) but they will not talk about it and stand up for it.

    The have a terror of being thought “judgmental” (which incidentally, you can see in Susan’s writings sometimes) so they just prefer never to talk about it. Truly too horrible to contemplate would be to be caught passing judgment on single mothers in the ghettos because how dare we say anything when we are white and they are not and we have stuff and they don’t?

  • Escoffier
  • J

    And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

    I’m gonna take one page from Maslow’s book and another from the ‘sphere’s (since even a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut). Maslow said that there’s a hierarchy of needs and that when basic needs like food and shelter are fulfilled, people begin to concentrate on higher order emotional and spiritual needs. IOW, they worry less about a full stomach and more about “haaappppiiiness.” We live in an econmoy where women can support themselves or get the government to do it (on sort of a crappy basis), so we all have full stomachs. This has driven down the intrinsic value of “beta providing,” leaving the ‘sphere unhaapppyy. At the same time, people with full bellies want their marriages to provide them with fulfillment of their emotional needs. Women are more likely then men to bail over unfulfilled emotional needs, so they are most often the ones to file for divorce. Men are more likely to cheat than divorce in their attempt to get emotional fulfillment (“My wife doesn’t understand me.”). They are better able to compartmentalize relationships and keep two relationships going at the same time, so they have less motivation.

    The extended adolescence of American society plays a role as does living a longer life and having what, if you are healthy enough, can be a sort of second adolescence. A couple of nights ago, DH and I went to see Looper in a near empty theater and kissed in the dark like a couple of kids. I actually giggled. As our kids get older, I find myself focusing on recreating what our life was like before they came. I can see how people who don’t have that to look forward to just quit after the kids leave home.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Women are more likely then men to bail over unfulfilled emotional needs, so they are most often the ones to file for divorce. Men are more likely to cheat than divorce in their attempt to get emotional fulfillment (“My wife doesn’t understand me.”). They are better able to compartmentalize relationships and keep two relationships going at the same time, so they have less motivation.

      Hmmm, this sounds sensible, but how does that square with women cheating as often as men do? Or are you saying that in a marriage where neither party is getting their needs met, both are equally likely to cheat, but it’s the female cheating that leads to divorce? (Due to the compartmentalization?)

  • J

    To me it does, and I’m guilty as charged myself. I should have chosen better, I should have been more mature, I shouldn’t have even considered societal and familiar pressure. The list of things I did wrong is long and complicated. But, the short version really is simple: I borked it up badly.

    Gosh, Ted, you are such an INTJ! I’m a Perceiver, not a Judger. I can see and understand the same factors as you do and react in a completely different manner. I wasn’t there, but I assume all your observations here are valid and I still would NOT say you borked it. Could you have been more mature? Maybe, but that’s easy to say now that you are older and actually more mature. Hindsight’s 20/20, and you did what you felt was right at the time. “Learn what you can, and move on” is my rule of thumb.

  • J

    My guess is that a lot of people with doubts are marrying without sufficient attachment

    No doubt.

    The beta provider meme, if you believe in it, suggests that women marry with none of the above. Or perhaps they skip right to attachment? I don’t know if that’s possible…

    Isn’t that what happens in arranged marriages? Parents try to pick out spouses that their kids are most likely to attach to. I’m sure that there has to be some lust as well, but the primary focus is on attachment.

    In any case, I do not believe anyone should marry who has not experienced all three stages fully.

    That’s a tall order.

  • J

    Off topic (only slightly) but here’s the teaser trailer for the forthcoming 50 Shades of Grey movie

    Eeeeewwwww. Meet Mr. Gray? No thank you, although he certainly does seem magically Byronic and one dimensional. Will I “be the one to give him more?” Why would I want to bother?

    In related suburban news: I have previously mentioned a man whom I call “the cumdgeon,” who came on to me at my mother’s funeral and has been cheating on his wife for a number of years. Apparently, the interminable hell they call a marriage has been “improved” by reading the series together. It make me want to vomit, but whatever floats their boat.

  • Sai

    @Abbot
    “that bubbly gaga doe-eyed heart capturing quality that give men confidence.”
    Would you accept a ‘saw how this works in an anatomy book, PLEASE don’t hurt me too badly’ quality?

    ” It also wouldn’t hurt to have a barrage of mainstream articles expressing how men really feel when confronting tire-tracked women who want to settle down.”
    I agree.

    @Escoffier
    Wow, I’m mad just looking at the words in the link. I’m going to the state fair, don’t want to get too worked up…

  • HanSolo

    @Abbot

    I think that the shame vs. embarrassment angle is a key point. Shame has more of a morality-based connotation whereas embarrassment has more of a popularity/status/coolness-based connotation. Being good vs. being liked. The virtuous vs. the fabulous. Shame works for those that fear not being good. Embarrassment more for those that fear not being liked. Both are based on remaining in the tribe, just two different tribes, one the tribe of the good, the other the tribe of being liked. Both relate to being respected and accepted but come at it from slightly different ways.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    More recently, things have got ‘interesting’, my feelings are stronger this time, but I don’t know what will happen as there are complications on her side. Given that there is no such thing as true anonymity, that’s all I’m going to say.

    People’s body chemistry change with time, experiences, moving, diseases… That is why bailing out of a mediocre marriage (not abuse or cheating just boring) is not a good idea, chances are that if you will have remained married this “stronger” feelings would had been for your wife at the moment. I know is hard to believe but I’m probably one of the few ones in the post that has experiences with marriages that lasted through the grave and the feelings in a relationship are not a line more like a roller-coaster moments where you think…”Why the hell I am with this person?” and moments when you will think “Did I existed before I meet this person” is quite interesting if you stick around for it that is.

    Anyway Ana, how many mothers have you seen, that’s worried about their sons not dating ?

    All of them?! If I had a penny for all the time a married older person (here in USA) talked to me about their kids romantics owes I would have quite the piggy bank. Now do this mothers talk to their kids about it, lend a helping hand or even tell them what they really think about the people they are dating or breaking up? Not a chance. That is the problem. I know a lot of them seeing their kids in their way of a HUGE mistake but for some reason beyond my comprehension they just cross their arms and shrug. Maybe they are right and it wouldn’t had changed anything but I particularly hate the “Maybe if I had said something” feeling.

    @Escoffier
    I almost broke my engagement TWICE. The running joke during my first wedding was that I was going to go walk down the aisle with my wedding colors ball and chain and my best men were instructed on tackle me if I managed to take a run for it. Hubby was very understanding of the whole thing of course it was not a secret that I was doing a HUGE step leaving my career, my family and my culture behind but still I was terrified for a long time. I don’t want to dismiss the study but I’m sure expats are not a huge part of it. Expating is fucking hard no matter that feminists and MRA’s think that we are just in for a Visa, dollars and a gringo, not that easy.

    The engagement ring is another potential minefield. I know a couple, both 29, they’ve been together for 7 years. The engagement is being delayed because he doesn’t want to propose until he can get her a ring with a diamond of at least 1 carat. WTF. In this case, she doesn’t even care, he is the one who is insisting!

    Mmm. Delaying your live for a diamond ring after 7 years? I might be meddling but this looks like a red flag. If she wants children she should propose a secret wedding in the city hall, no one needs to know and he can have his “dream ring” see how he takes it. My guess is that he is buying his time and given her age she better find out now than when she is 35 and still unmarried and settles for him because starting to date again at that age would be problematic.
    And before the men here think I’m being sexist this is similar to an advice for religious folks whose brides want to wait till marriage before having sex, if she is so committed to keep her virginity that a secret wedding won’t do she might be having a low sex drive, there is values and dreams and there is issues.

    That’s not very romantic I know but let’s be honest, we’re only ever going to marry people we come in contact with, which rules out 99.9999% of the human race. So, is nature so efficient that it just happens to plant the “soulmates” of 7 billion people within each person’s field of vision, unerringly? It’s silly.

    Hey I like being silly! :) I do think hubby is my soulmate, don’t worry is not an unhealthy way soulmates doesn’t mean perfect couple or perfect man because as hard it is to believe I’m not perfect. But hubby thinks like you. Heh I can believe it for both. :)

    You’ve just summed up one of my primary reasons for being so “extremist” on this subject. I’m tired of everyone saying ‘it isn’t THAT bad” because it CAN get much worse.

    Heh it should be mandatory for people to spent a year living with us poor folks. I agree that it can get worse I just think it can get better with the right choices and policies. The question who will start them? Not many voluntaries and I’m sure the politicians love that they only need to look good and shiny to get people to vote for them so they won’t be changing anything.

    The conspiracy theorist in me has wondered about this many, many times.

    I have an overactive imagination so I try not to indulge myself on conspiracy theories but if you think about it. You have the 1% stable, getting richer and above all our petty issues the low class gets poorer and poorer the only competition is the middle class and they have their hands tied up by the manipulation of the PC culture (don’t shame, don’t judge, don’t make anything that make people, specially women who had done nothing but suffering for the sin of being born with a vagina, uncomfortable or unhappy…. that makes you EVIL) which is the only way they could do any influence lacking the resources and drive of the upper class and they slowly start to assimilate lower class thinking and behaving. I might just be history moving alone but man History seems to have a mind of her own sometimes.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus
  • J

    Before out first ceremony (civil) we were in the car all dressed up and about 10 mins out my heart literally dropped. I was ready to freak out. Sitting next to me she was having much the same feeling.

    LOL. I didn’t experience much doubt before the wedding, but I was scared out of my mind during the wedding. Same for DH, who looks sick in the videos of the actual cermeony (but happy at the reception.) I look giddy immediately before the cermony, terrified during and relieved afterward. At the end of the recessional I looked at DH and said far too loudly, “OMG, I can’t fcuking believe we just did that!” My SIL offered to get me a brandy, but I was afraid I’d get sick.

  • HanSolo

    @J 70

    I like your explanation based on Maslow, unappreciated providers, unhappy men compartmentalizing and unhappy women bailing out.

  • J

    I think my wife’s ring is like 1/3 carat.

    Mine too. My wedding ring is a simple gold band.

    It does maker her stand out in our little ‘burb where all the mommies have big rocks.

    Yeah, I get asked a lot why I don’t insist on a big “anniversary” ring.

    A lot of the women at my gym have such large wedding/engagement ring combinations is takes up room on their finger all the way to the first knuckle. I see it as very vulgar. I am a reverse snob that way.

    It’s a wedding ring. It’s supposed to symbolize something, for God’s sakes–not just be something to wave in the other bitches’ faces.

  • J

    Princess for a day – great! …..Yeah, the Bridezilla thing is huge

    I dunno. Actually being married is a big price to pay just to have a party IMHO.

  • HanSolo

    Regarding the fan-made 50 Shades of Grey trailer.

    “Who could be the one who gives him more? Could it be you?”

    Classic hamster bate for the hypergamously romantic.

    Here’s another song that really embodies the emotion of the woman who falls in love with the badboy and can’t get over him–Blue Jeans by Lana Del Rey:

  • J

    Now do this mothers talk to their kids about it, lend a helping hand or even tell them what they really think about the people they are dating or breaking up? Not a chance. That is the problem.

    Kids are hugely resistant to having those sorts of talks with parents. You’ll see. ;-)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Kids are hugely resistant to having those sorts of talks with parents. You’ll see.

    Latina mothers and grandmothers, the traditional ones at least, can still get their adult’s kids by the ear make them see sense or else. I plan to take after them. ;)

  • J

    Expating is fucking hard no matter that feminists and MRA’s think that we are just in for a Visa, dollars and a gringo, not that easy.

    I actually regard you as I do my immigrant grandparents. It takes guts to pull up stakes in search of something better. I know many people even now who are recent immigrants. They are often sort of torn between American prosperity/freedom/opportunity and nostaglia for home.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    MRA’s think that we are just in for a Visa, dollars and a gringo, not that easy.

    I thought they tend to encourage men to consider latinas, asians and eastern europeans because they have better character for marriage. Abbot does. It seems like it’s more of the feminists who will bring out the gold-digging card to try and shame and disillusion the men from considering foreign women. I’ve dated a lot of latinas, both in the US and in various Latin American countries and I can say that there are a lot of sweet, sincere girls but there are also quite a few materialistic gold diggers but for me it was never hard to distinguish because the gold diggers lacked both subtlety and patience! :D One girl I met on the internet up front asked me to buy here a trip to Italy, just for her, and we’d never met in person!!! LMAO But, I’ve met a lot of really sincere good girls there too so you just have to be discerning.

  • J

    LOL, good luck with that, Ana. Added to the usual “You’re too old to understand.” will be “What do you know? You didn’t grow up in America.” My neighborhood is full of kids who spend a lot of time protesting to their parents that this is not India, Russia, Israel or the Virgon (That’s intentional) Islands. My parents told their parents that this wasn’t Europe.

    Not trying to be mean. Just warning you.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I actually regard you as I do my immigrant grandparents.
    But you are not feminist or a MRA ;)

    It takes guts to pull up stakes in search of something better. I know many people even now who are recent immigrants. They are often sort of torn between American prosperity/freedom/opportunity and nostaglia for home.

    Thank you. Somedays I feel like I was a coward to leave, some other days specially when my mom is sick, I was the only one that took time to take care of her when she was ill, I feel like an ungrateful bitch. Some other times I just feel lonely and want to go and eat Dominican cake and a morir soñando and talk to my friends about “el patio” like we like to call my island and realize I can’t anymore. Is specially hard being pregnant and having my mom calling me everyday “Do you have my baby yet?” But this are just moments of sadness I’m truly happy with my husband and I’m happy that I’m becoming a mom.
    There is no such a thing as “everything is perfect all the time” for anything. Not even when I’m writing which is my passion is happiness all the time sometimes some lines or scenes are hard. But that is life. That is one of the reasons I have so little patience for the “I’m unhaappy I quit/cheat” crowd, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    LOL, good luck with that, Ana. Added to the usual “You’re too old to understand.” will be “What do you know? You didn’t grow up in America.” My neighborhood is full of kids who spend a lot of time protesting to their parents that this is not India, Russia, Israel or the Virgon (That’s intentional) Islands. My parents told their parents that this wasn’t Europe.

    Ahh but I already have a support system in the name of my daddy making sure they won’t be pure gringos. Daddy hates USA (You invaded us twice after all), he wouldn’t allow any grandkids of his (and funny enough he thinks my kids are more his grandkids than my sociopath of a brother’s kids I wonder why…) will grow up thinking that nonsense that “American is the the best country of the world” I’m sure regular visits will help with that. Hubby is very skeptic of the American ways because his father is British and he visited his own british relatives, regularly and it seems that British people think low of Americans too. Good balance there :D

  • Ted D

    J – “I dunno. Actually being married is a big price to pay just to have a party IMHO.”

    Not when divorce is a simple filing away… And, if she does it soon enough, she might just get a second really big and nice wedding out of the deal!

  • Jason773

    While a lot of blame is spread to shitty women, and there are certainly plenty of them, in this area I give much of the blame to the beta herbs. Seriously, if you’re about to marry someone you should be able to tell if she is head-over-heels in love with you. Anything short of that and the wedding should be called off. Beta herbs are pathetic in this respect and if they give any concessions in this area then they deserve what they get.

  • http://thesanctuary-spacetraveller.blogspot.com JT

    @ Just1X @ 17,

    Thanks for the reply.
    For sure, most people change their view on love as they get older. Brian McFadden recently said his first marriage to Kerry Katona was basically null and void because he didn’t know what he was doing. Most people who get married young may have the same feeling…

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    All of them?! If I had a penny for all the time a married older person (here in USA) talked to me about their kids romantics owes I would have quite the piggy bank.

    woes … now now Ana … your spellinks is getting particularly entertaining … so that means you’re having a delicate moment … yes yes yes, I know … but if you keep this up, you’re gonna write something that some Rollo-Reading-Muslim would decipher as the final ingredient for brewing dildos in a plastic kettle … yes yes yes Ana … but what if that final ingredient makes a small BANG … then that Rollo-Reading-Muslim is gonna be so happy that he names his son after you … can’t have that can we ? … so take a deep breath … and another one … and another … think of a negging-plate-spinning-turban-wearing-muslim called Ana … yes Ana … why are you smiling Ana ? … really Ana ? … Salaam Ana.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “PS, if you really want to get mad, read this:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/308343/#

    I’m going to save this for Monday morning. Its Friday, and I don’t want to start me weekend off with this article based on the URL alone.

  • Ramble

    Seriously, if you’re about to marry someone you should be able to tell if she is head-over-heels in love with you.

    If the guy is a genuine beta herb, then there is a good chance that the girl he is proposing to may be the only girl that had any real interest in him, regardless of how intense that interest may be.

    A few weekends ago on This American Life (on NPR) some writer told a story about his summer spent working on the boardwalk in some shore town. Anyway, long story short, this writer finished the pathetic story by saying that by the time he did get his first real kiss he was 25 and he married her.

    I think the story was meant to be “real” and poignant, but I found it to be sad and pathetic.

    I understand that there are solutions for these guys (i.e. get some game), but it is a little hard to blame some herb for confusing “thank god, someone is actually touching me” with lust and attraction.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Suzan, I do believe that a comment of mine has gone into moderation. Why ?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Suzan, I do believe that a comment of mine has gone into moderation. Why ?

      I just retrieved it. I think it’s because of all the ellipses – a common feature of spam. Keep in mind my spam filter often has hundreds of comments in it – and the filter “learns” to select for common features. I’ve whitelisted you so it shouldn’t be a problem in the future.

  • Ted D

    Jason773 – “Beta herbs are pathetic in this respect and if they give any concessions in this area then they deserve what they get.”

    That is SO compassionate of you!

    As a guy that was raised believing it was my “lot in life” to marry and start a family, regardless of what *I* actually might have wanted to do, I hope you don’t mind it when I say: Fuck you.

    It really is easy to point fingers and laugh at people when you haven’t lived their life. You’ve seen my posted crap, and Deti seems to have been raised with a very similar family dynamic. We were literally raised to believe ALL we were good for was being a cog in the machine, and when it is the people you love and trust telling you this, it takes a fairly rebellious kid to do otherwise. I was raised old school, and being rebellious was NOT an option, unless I wanted to get the shit beat out of my by my grandfather and uncles. No such thing as “child abuse” back in the 70′s man. Hell, I used to get my ass beat in Catholic school too! Yard sticks sting, and the principal had a purpose made paddle with holes in it to decrease drag as she swung.

    I stopped fighting and rebelling at an early age. I disliked getting my ass kicked, and it embarrassed me to NO END when I’d get swatted in school. Because, ya know, they did it right in front of the entire class.

  • Ramble

    Lust — driven by androgens and estrogens, the craving for sexual gratification

    Attraction — driven by high dopamine and norepinephrine levels and low serotonin, romantic or passionate love, characterized by euphoria when things are going well, terrible mood swings when they’re not, focused attention, obsessive thinking, and intense craving for the individual

    I’ve said it before and I will say it again, Susan should be talking a lot more about belly fat on girls, and guys, if finding “love” is one of the goals of this site.

    Girls, and guys, are fatter than ever before and I am confident that it is having a big effect on “love” (i.e. attraction and lust) in the modern West.

  • Ramble

    Suzan, I do believe that a comment of mine has gone into moderation. Why ?

    If you misspell her name 5 times in a row, it trips the moderation flag.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you misspell her name 5 times in a row, it trips the moderation flag.

      LOL

  • Ramble

    As a guy that was raised believing it was my “lot in life” to marry and start a family, regardless of what *I* actually might have wanted to do, I hope you don’t mind it when I say: Fuck you.

    Grow Up. Be a Man. Do the right thing. Suck it up.

  • Ted D

    Ramble – “Grow Up. Be a Man. Do the right thing. Suck it up.”

    Way past all that. But, at 26, it hadn’t even occurred to me that any of this was in the least bit necessary. Shit, I thought I was a big, bad assed grown man that was gonna get married, hunker down, and be a real grown up complete with a family, house, car, and a white picket fence. The fence was actually tan, and it didn’t last.

    My point is, picking on “herbs” is about as useful as a Catholic missionary saying that African tribe-folk are going to hell because they don’t believe in God. They don’t even have a concept of God, let alone “not believing” in him.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Ramble

    If you misspell her name 5 times in a row, it trips the moderation flag.

    Jirre Jissis

  • Abbot

    “Shame works for those that fear not being good. Embarrassment more for those that fear not being liked… Both relate to being respected and accepted but come at it from slightly different ways.”

    Then slut-embarrassing is the correctly phrased goal
    Proud to be a slut embarrasser

  • Ramble

    Belgium or Zaire?

  • Ramble

    OT, but should be of interest to Susan:

    Steve Sailer mentioned your hometown,

    One weakness with Boston gentrifying is that, legally, it’s a geographically tiny 17th Century city surrounded by conveniently close-in suburbs that don’t have to bus. So, it’s easy for young parents to say, forget it, I’m not bothering to try to fight for a good student body in my kid’s Boston school, we’ll just move a few miles to, say, Brookline. For example, Judge Arthur Garrity, who ordered the school busing in 1974, lived in nearby Wellesley, which is just as Seven Sistersy as it sounds and was, amazingly enough, immune from Garrity’s own busing order.

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-triumph-of-liberalism-in-graph.html

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      So, it’s easy for young parents to say, forget it, I’m not bothering to try to fight for a good student body in my kid’s Boston school, we’ll just move a few miles to, say, Brookline.

      What Sailer has left out is that there is a great deal of difference in SES terms between Boston and Brookline or Wellesley. Both those towns have top-notch schools. It’s not so easy just to move from Dorchester to Wellesley or Brookline. A lot more people either go the Catholic school route, try for a charter school, or apply to schools like Mother Caroline’s Academy or Nativity Prep (free if you can test in). Having said that, Brookline has housing projects and as a result the school system is the most diverse in the state. I think something like 60 languages are spoken at the high school.

      Also, there are plenty of SWPLs who live in Boston proper, but they mostly use private schools, of which there are many in Boston. Boston Latin is an excellent high school – and many kids switch over to public for high school and go there.

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    Re: comment #67

    With you brother 110%

    Our indigenous American culture (i.e. that of the founders, but the same applies to Western culture in general) is now being globalized away as so many indigenous cultures around the world have been before, and we’re blind to the process since everyone assumes it is “America” doing the globalizing.

    The top selling item in college bookstores? Cosmopolitan (literally citizen of the world) magazine. America’s not driving the bus any more, if it ever was.

  • Desiderius

    “My point is, picking on “herbs” is about as useful as a Catholic missionary saying that African tribe-folk are going to hell because they don’t believe in God. They don’t even have a concept of God, let alone “not believing” in him.”

    There are (far) more Christians in Africa now than in Europe and North America combined.

  • Desiderius

    “It’s a wedding ring. It’s supposed to symbolize something, for God’s sakes–not just be something to wave in the other bitches’ faces.”

    The bigger the rock, the more lust for strange cock.

    Too much supplication to carry around all the time, evidently. Just listen to jewelry commercials on the radio.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The bigger the rock, the more lust for strange cock.

      LMAO, did you make that up? You ought to copyright it, it’s the perfect ‘sphere slogan.

  • Ramble

    There are (far) more Christians in Africa now than in Europe and North America combined.

    But not that many Protestants (especially of the traditional, modest, hard working type that shunned iconography).

  • Plain Jane

    Escoffier, I replied to that comment by Brendan over at the Social Pathologist’s blog that you linked to here;

    Anonymous I See A Lot of Law Breakers Up In This House said…

    Brendan,
    “Women want the full package: charm/sexiness and masculine achievement/responsibility. A mix of alpha and beta qualities. That’s plainly obvious.

    The problem is that men like this are not common and the truth is that they never have been common. The ancien regime emphasized the beta qualities over the alpha ones by means of the social expectations/restrictions on female achievement, making women more reliant on beta qualities in mate selection. Many of them ended up married to men who were not attractive to them due to not having sufficient alpha qualities, and in some cases to men who had good beta qualities on paper but nevertheless fared poorly (turned into louts, etc.). Today, women are not as reliant on betaness, and, being free to choose, want an attractive and competent mate — and there are simply not very many of these men.

    I don’t think this is new, however, as I state above. For generations, perhaps thousands of years now, men have not had to present like this (both sexy and successful) simply to mate effectively. It’s true that the relatively few men who had this mix of qualities were the ones who had the best mating opportunities (unsurprisingly), but it’s not been the case that having both of these was required to mate effectively. Today, it is the case, and most men just are not going to make that cut.”
    —–

    Welcome to the club!!!
    Women have been expected to be the “full package” for their men for millenia.

    Expert homemakers, cooks and bakers, child care givers, nurses, home educators AND stay in shape through multiple pregnancies, look as pretty as possible, and bring the goods in the bedroom.

    So what if men are also now feeling the heat to not only fulfill their roles as providers, but stay in shape and bring it in the bedroom as well?

    And look, its not THAT hard. All you have to do is have a decent job, a regular work out routine, stay abreast of mens’ fashion and keep an open mind sexually and mix it up in the sack.

    We don’t expect you to be body building billionaires. Just be able to support yourself before marriage and contribute financially to a family after, and stay as healthy, fit and attractive as is feasibly possible.

    Its not rocket science.

  • Ramble

    I’ve come to believe that shaming is not the answer. It attacks individuals for behaviors, but not the underlying beliefs that drive behaviors.

    You make it sound like we are only allowed to shame someones actions but not their beliefs (granted, from a traditional POV, currently, you can’t do either).

    Why not?

    For the record, I do not have all of my eggs in the Shaming basket. So far, we are seeing much more of the Manhattan/Malibu/Miami-Beach approach (price out the unwashed and teach them ESL on the weekends) of our culture than we are of shaming. So, that trend may simply continue.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      You make it sound like we are only allowed to shame someones actions but not their beliefs (granted, from a traditional POV, currently, you can’t do either).

      Why not?

      That’s not what I meant. I meant that even if you could make all the promiscuous college women feel ashamed, there’s still the culture giving them positive reinforcement for that behavior. There will always be a new crop of freshmen women who want to explore their sexuality and get all empowered by it when they arrive at college. We’re not bailing fast enough and the boat is sinking. We have to attack the culture directly, redefine what is normal and/or cool, and then people will view the incentives differently.

  • Plain Jane

    RE: Anacaona vs Ramble.

    Ana sees it from the perspective of a parent, and Ramble from a the perspective of a single person without kids.

    As someone from a very family oriented and traditional culture who nonetheless is unmarried and childless at what is a shameful age to be so in my culture, I can see it from both sides.

    Traditionally marriage was solely for and about the kids and larger extended family. So Ana’s right about that. I however agree with Ramble that marriage serves no real purpose IF one never plans to have children.

    Commitment and monogamy can still take place, without legal or religious marriage, for those childless couples who want to live happily ever after.

  • Plain Jane

    “Isn’t that what happens in arranged marriages? Parents try to pick out spouses that their kids are most likely to attach to. I’m sure that there has to be some lust as well, but the primary focus is on attachment.”

    Ha! If only. In arranged marriage parents pick out potential spouses who can do the most to contribute financially to the family, from both sides.

  • Plain Jane

    Anacaona October 5, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    LOL, good luck with that, Ana. Added to the usual “You’re too old to understand.” will be “What do you know? You didn’t grow up in America.” My neighborhood is full of kids who spend a lot of time protesting to their parents that this is not India, Russia, Israel or the Virgon (That’s intentional) Islands. My parents told their parents that this wasn’t Europe.

    Ahh but I already have a support system in the name of my daddy making sure they won’t be pure gringos. Daddy hates USA (You invaded us twice after all), he wouldn’t allow any grandkids of his (and funny enough he thinks my kids are more his grandkids than my sociopath of a brother’s kids I wonder why…) will grow up thinking that nonsense that “American is the the best country of the world” I’m sure regular visits will help with that. Hubby is very skeptic of the American ways because his father is British and he visited his own british relatives, regularly and it seems that British people think low of Americans too. Good balance there :D
    ——

    You, your father, your husband and his parents can certainly do their part to socially engineer the “American” out of your kids, however it doesn’t mean your kids will go for it.

    Parenthood is a crap shoot.

  • Plain Jane

    “Our indigenous American culture (i.e. that of the founders, but the same applies to Western culture in general) is now being globalized away as so many indigenous cultures around the world have been before, and we’re blind to the process since everyone assumes it is “America” doing the globalizing.”

    Part of the reason people are blind to it is because they think Christianity to be a religion indigenous to the West. The first hardcore wave of globalization was the spreading of an indigenous middle eastern religion to Europe, at the expense of a multitude of indigenous European religions, philosophies, rituals and traditions.

  • Plain Jane

    “The top selling item in college bookstores? Cosmopolitan (literally citizen of the world) magazine. America’s not driving the bus any more, if it ever was.”

    Cosmo is an American magazine about American culture. That too, white American culture, a certain type of white, english speaking American culture.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan @ 115. Yep. Very few people get “alimony” these days. Child support is skimpy and middle class women are financially much worse off after a divorce, often getting demoted to the lower class.

    Once at D-rock’s some men were arguing that old retired widows are “on the prowl” for old retired widowers because they “want their money” those greedy bitches. What money? Old retired American men do not comprise the 1%. Most are lucky to be living at the same level post-retirement that they were doing their working days. Whatever extra money they might have left over goes to their kids and grandkids, not some “old dame” they took to Olive Garden a few times.

    Besides, I worked in retirement communities for a few years and the old widows were always talking about how they DON’T want to “take care of an old man” in their own retirement years. These women have raised kids, helped with grandkids, and often nursed their aging and sick husbands in the latter years of their marriages. These are women who want to spend the last decade of their lives RELAXING. Cut them a break, will ya fellas?

    I tell you, these “red kook aid” men have one track minds. “All women are gold digging bitches who want our money!”

    Even though those guys hardly have two pennies to rub together.

  • Plain Jane

    “Hmmm, this sounds sensible, but how does that square with women cheating as often as men do? Or are you saying that in a marriage where neither party is getting their needs met, both are equally likely to cheat, but it’s the female cheating that leads to divorce? (Due to the compartmentalization?)”

    That’s what the M-sphere says. They also say wives cheating should never be tolerated but husbands cheating should, because somehow the latter is less damaging than the former.

    Smack their heads.

  • Plain Jane

    Marellus October 5, 2012 at 10:16 am

    @Escoffier

    How do you reconcile Helen Fisher’s three conditions (mentioned by Suzan) with your maxim of there not being a soulmate ?

    Is love then nothing else but a distorted reproductive instinct of humans ?

    And if so, does a marriage then bring relief from it ?
    ——-

    Question was directed as Escoffier but I’ll chime in ;)

    Helen Fisher’s 3 requirements are highly culturally dependent. In my culture the first 2 would be deemed completely unnecessary, even counter productive, for a wedding to happen, but they would be hoped to develop over time after the wedding. However if they did not develop over time after the wedding, that would not be considered grounds for divorce.

    My culture has an entirely different perspective on marriage and its purpose.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You, your father, your husband and his parents can certainly do their part to socially engineer the “American” out of your kids, however it doesn’t mean your kids will go for it.

    Parenthood is a crap shoot.

    True but at least I will try. That is my peeve this people are worried sick about their kids but they rather bite their tongues and don’t even try to talk to them out of a bad romantic choice, because they don’t want to be “that type of parent” and “it won’t work anyway” how do you know if you don’t try?… Yeah leaving them to their own devices is so much cooler…/barf.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That is my peeve this people are worried sick about their kids but they rather bite their tongues and don’t even try to talk to them out of a bad romantic choice, because they don’t want to be “that type of parent” and “it won’t work anyway” how do you know if you don’t try?… Yeah leaving them to their own devices is so much cooler…/barf.

      When I first started talking to young women about the SMP, they were juniors in high school. I knew their moms, and as I got to know the girls better I realized their moms had no clue. One mother told me her daughter had never kissed a boy, but I knew she’d been giving BJs since the 7th grade. Another woman told me she would never let her daughter shave her pubic hair, but I knew for a fact that all of the girls had been doing it for years. For whatever reason, those girls didn’t even consider talking to their moms, and they were amazed that my daughter was open with me.

      By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

  • Plain Jane

    JT October 5, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    @ Just1X @ 17,

    Thanks for the reply.
    For sure, most people change their view on love as they get older. Brian McFadden recently said his first marriage to Kerry Katona was basically null and void because he didn’t know what he was doing. Most people who get married young may have the same feeling…
    —————

    I married very young and annulled it. We are still the best of friends and plan on being together again in old age. It wasn’t him, it wasn’t me, it was actually his family who broke us up because we weren’t conforming to their South Asian ideas of what a married couple should look like.

  • Senior Beta

    Susan, where does this 85% of females might be acceptable wives number come from? It seems absurdly high. Only forced the red pill down about 18 months ago but I am thinking of my two sons. I would think the chances of them finding a woman half as good as their mother at less than 10%. But we are in a large west coast city.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Senior Beta

      No, that’s backwards. I said recently in a comment here that I wouldn’t accept 85% of women as wife material for my son if it were up to me. But I reserve the right to be extremely picky – I do not think that 85% of women are unworthy of marriage, any more than 85% of men are. I agree with those who say that men should be extremely careful about marriage, and unless a woman totally had her act together and demonstrated stellar character I wouldn’t encourage it.

  • Jason773

    Nope Ted, still don’t have any compassion. My own personal case may not have been as extreme as yours, but I was certainly raised in a more femcentric environment than you were and had my own beta tendencies. My oneitis in high school was so bad that I constantly imagined my fake married life together with her and it was damn near paralyzing, but even then I had the intuition to realize that I should only ever be with someone if they were absolutely crazy about me. I just didn’t know how to accomplish that but I at least had an idea of what that would be like.

    Its just such a basic idea that I don’t understand how one can get it wrong

  • Plain Jane

    Ana,
    “True but at least I will try. That is my peeve this people are worried sick about their kids but they rather bite their tongues and don’t even try to talk to them out of a bad romantic choice, because they don’t want to be “that type of parent” and “it won’t work anyway” how do you know if you don’t try?… Yeah leaving them to their own devices is so much cooler…/barf.”

    Don’t get me started. I counsel kids and parents like this. The kids are crying out for guidance and discipline and the parents don’t want to give it. They actually don’t know how. And everyone tells them what good parents they are because they speak so softly with their children.

    Someone,
    I am absolutely confident that PC will not last forever.

    Ana,
    “True but it has lasted long enough, interestingly enough I was watching some Big Bang Theory videos and they mentioned negs in one episode (of course it was Howard) of course mainstream makes fun of the most basic Game contents but it has grown if they mock it in pop TV, xkcd also had this one mocking it too. So things are moving slowly but they are moving. I just hope all this unravels more clearly before my kids hit puberty.”

    SMH. Negging is NOT the same as non-pc “shaming”.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “You realize that MRAs want to tar and feather women who do this, right”

    Yep.

    I would counter that her ex has been to and stayed at our house, we have worked with him to make visitation as easy as possible, and personally I have no issue spending his money on whatever I want, because *I* am the one actually providing for HIS children. Truth be told, I don’t feel like it is actually balanced when you take into consideration that I had to get a 5 bedroom house to have room for his children when I only have two myself. But, I don’t dwell on it because I’m getting the most positive out of the situation, and my wife’s children are good kids. They deserve a stable family and some sense of security, and I’m in the position to do that. I knew from the start it was a package deal, but so was I.

    My conscience is more than clear on this. We told her ex what we did with the ring. He said it was a damn smart idea.

  • Plain Jane

    “That’s not what I meant. I meant that even if you could make all the promiscuous college women feel ashamed, there’s still the culture giving them positive reinforcement for that behavior. ”

    Susan’s right. I come from a shame based culture and every aspect of it – from family, to media, to government, to society dishes out the same shame. Not just one or two aspects of the culture, but ALL of them. The message is constant and from all sides.

    Granted, its congruent. I can’t say how “healthy” it is though.

  • Plain Jane

    ” Having said that, Brookline has housing projects and as a result the school system is the most diverse in the state. I think something like 60 languages are spoken at the high school.”

    Is that high school doing well? Is it capitalizing on the diversity or suffering under the weight of it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Plain Jane

      Is that high school doing well? Is it capitalizing on the diversity or suffering under the weight of it?

      It’s an excellent high school, and the diversity is a huge plus.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    When I first started talking to young women about the SMP, they were juniors in high school. I knew their moms, and as I got to know the girls better I realized their moms had no clue.One mother told me her daughter had never kissed a boy, but I knew she’d been giving BJs since the 7th grade. Another woman told me she would never let her daughter shave her pubic hair, but I knew for a fact that all of the girls had been doing it for years. For whatever reason, those girls didn’t even consider talking to their moms, and they were amazed that my daughter was open with me.

    By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

    In my case this women had a total clue their kids are not shy on sharing it, because like you say “No judgement” but they also ended up in messes that their mothers saw a mile away coming and still said nothing. There is a sweet spot between not judging and letting then make a HUGE mistake with nothing but a “there, there life is like that don’t worry” , YMMV.

  • Plain Jane

    ” I knew their moms, and as I got to know the girls better I realized their moms had no clue. One mother told me her daughter had never kissed a boy, but I knew she’d been giving BJs since the 7th grade.”

    OK so what if she was open with her mom like you say your daughter was open with you? Would her mom have tried to convince her not to give BJs? Would she have listened? Is knowing about your kids’ sexual activities the only reason for being open with them? I’m asking because I know a daughter who tells her mom everything (and what she tells her is pretty shocking) and instead of offering guidance, providing boundaries (if I were the mom I’d be straight out forbidding these things), the mom is just happy that “at least my daughter talks to me. I know what she’s doing and I’d rather that than she go behind my back”.

    I don’t get this at all and would really like someone to explain the logic, if any, in these way of parenting.

    ” Another woman told me she would never let her daughter shave her pubic hair, but I knew for a fact that all of the girls had been doing it for years. ”

    Why were they doing that? What started this cultural trend?

    “For whatever reason, those girls didn’t even consider talking to their moms, and they were amazed that my daughter was open with me.”

    Again I ask what is the point of the openness? To just know what your kids are doing or to set rules and boundaries?

    “By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.”

    OK but without judging and moralizing, again, what is the actual point of knowing these things?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OK but without judging and moralizing, again, what is the actual point of knowing these things?

      The girls were frustrated and unhappy. My approach was to say, “OK, so you want a boyfriend. How do you go about getting one?” Then they would spill, and I would say, “And you believed him?” etc.

      My approach was really one of sexual economics, and they saw the reason in this. Some said, “No boy will like me if I do what you say.” And I said, “Well, no boy likes you now. Not really.”

      Of course, things didn’t turn around right away – or even through college! But most of them saw that providing casual sex was not the answer, and they were better off and felt better when they followed my advice. It didn’t work for everyone, and a couple of really slutty girls got boyfriends who were crazy about them. But overall, after two years with me they felt in control of their interactions with the opposite sex, and they knew a lot more about guys. It’s been seven years since those convos started, and all of those girls are still in touch and believers in HUS.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @ Suzan

    By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

    Please write a blog post on this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

      Please write a blog post on this.

      OK, I will. I’m actually finding it useful to clarify my blogging strategy, and why I won’t be adapting to new purposes and audiences in the way that some readers might like. We can debate it – though I won’t pretend to be open minded at this point. Still, if you think it would be interesting I’m happy to describe my approach.

  • Ted D

    Jason773 – “Its just such a basic idea that I don’t understand how one can get it wrong”

    Some of us are complete dumb asses?

    I’m not socially savvy. I don’t “do” people well, and when it came to interpersonal relationships I pretty much stuck to the script I’d been given because I had little faith in my ability to read a social situation correctly. My mother never married, and my grandparents were the only model of a marriage I had. I pretty much believed all that idealized crap about what love was. I didn’t date much and my first LTR went from 16 to 19. Men generally learn this stuff in HS, but I had no need and didn’t ever bother to even try to “trade up”. Why would I? I don’t like people, and my relationship satisfied my requirements for female company. (In other words sex). To make this short, I went from LTR to LTR from there spending a total of maybe 1 year “single” since the age of 16. I never learned the lessons you think are so basic because technically I never had to. Until I found myself in my late 30′s looking at a divorce.

    I can’t speak for the other “herbs” so you’ll have to ask them what their deal is.

  • Passer_By

    “Women have been expected to be the “full package” for their men for millenia.

    Expert homemakers, cooks and bakers, child care givers, nurses, home educators AND stay in shape through multiple pregnancies, look as pretty as possible, and bring the goods in the bedroom.”

    No, they were just expected to be reasonably competent at those homemaking skills, not be homely, and not be frigid. In other words, average women managed to meet the standard. Average men can’t meet the standard that Brendan describes because, by defnition, to be average is to fail the test.

  • Passer_By

    @desi
    “The bigger the rock, the more lust for strange cock.”

    I gave my virgin first wife a 1.3 karat ring. We had a largely sexless marriage, and she eventually cheated, despite me being a good 1 or 2 points higher than her in SMV (in all modesty).

    I gave my current wife a big ole cubic zircon with a $20 band, which she laughed about (plus a nice but tasteful wedding band with some small diamonds). She always had a good time watching the expressions on womens’ faces after they admired the rock and she then explained that it was a cubic. Plus, she has always worshipped my cock.

    A game lesson in there somewhere.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    “Child support is for the children, not her. She should not gain financially.”

    I don’t think this is totally true although it might be stated that way in the law. If she had 100% custody that takes up a lot of time and effort on her part and so she should get some money for that. Now, I think that there are some cases where she gets too much. I dated a girl who had a kid and she was living in a big-ass apartment and going on trips because the father was making several hundred grand a year and so the child support was very high. She did take good care of her kid but she was using a lot of the money for herself too.

  • Plain Jane

    “No, they were just expected to be reasonably competent at those homemaking skills, not be homely, and not be frigid. ”

    Right, and like I said, average women are not expecting their men to be body building billionaires but to be reasonably competent at contributing financially to the family and to be as healthy, fit and attractive as feasibly possible, and to keep an open mind in the bedroom.

  • Plain Jane

    Regarding all this big rock talk, aren’t diamonds a cruel trade? Aren’t children dying in those mines over there in Africa?

    From a moral perspective any woman who asks for such a thing, or a man who offers it should be rejected on that alone, if they are aware of the suffering that industry is causing and STILL want to get one or give one. If they are unaware of the issue than you should educate them about it, and keep them as a partner, PROVIDED they demonstrate concern over the issue and change their mind about diamonds.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Plain Jane

    My culture has an entirely different perspective on marriage and its purpose.

    Men will kill for an idea … and die for an emotion

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    “That’s an attempt to attach, I guess, but not a successful one. I do not believe that attachment can occur without falling in love first. At least, that’s how Fisher presents it.”

    It’s been a while since I read Why We Love but it was stated very clearly that each of the three things can exist in isolation. She gives the example of one person filling the three different roles. So, I agree that deep attachment is way more likely when lust and romantic love are there but I thought she gave the example of two people who never really had much lust and romance but lived together for so long that they grew attached, sort of like really good friends.

    Parenthetically, it’s hard to imagine a straight man romantically loving a woman without lusting after her too. I suppose it’s possible for really low sex-drive, almost asexual kind of guys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, I agree that deep attachment is way more likely when lust and romantic love are there but I thought she gave the example of two people who never really had much lust and romance but lived together for so long that they grew attached, sort of like really good friends

      You’re right, that makes sense. PJ gave the example of arranged marriages too. I’m sure that even some successful ones never grow to include lust. I stand corrected.

  • Ramble

    How common is alimony these days, and at what level?

    I got curious about this one day and tried to do some research to find out. Specifically, I wanted to know how common alimony was amongst UMC and UC couples. I couldn’t find anything. Granted, I don’t work for Lexis-Nexus.

    Walk away with half their stuff? So does the guy, right? That’s not a net gain for the woman.

    I think the sentence was meant to convey that *she* walks away with half of *his* stuff.

    Child support is for the children, not her. She should not gain financially.

    Whether or not she does gain, or should gain, it is often referred to as Mommy Support for a reason.

    The women I have known in this boat are not at all confident, with good reason. It’s very tough to be a 40 yo single woman, as we know.

    It’s also an important factor in why UMC (older) couples divorce at a rate significantly less than the middle and lower classes. The later you get married, the later you will be starting over, if you get divorced. Though, I bet the rate would still be lower even if the upper class married at a younger age.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I too have tried to research various questions related to divorce and there is surprisingly little information. AFAIK, there is only that one study on Reasons for Divorcing. Even the 2/3 claim is based on one study that looked at only four states. It’s very strange, IMO. I can get data about almost every subject – but not divorce. I suspect this is because of no-fault, but I’m not clear on why.

  • Ramble

    What Sailer has left out is that there is a great deal of difference in SES terms between Boston and Brookline or Wellesley.

    No he didn’t. It is right in the opening graph.

    Also, there are plenty of SWPLs who live in Boston proper, but they mostly use private schools

    That is basically his point. The SWPL dream is to gentrify an area so completely that your swpl kids can walk to the local public school.

    BTW, I did not mean for you to comment on it here. I am/was not looking to derail this conversation. I just thought that you would be interested since it mentions your hometown (and I this is my opening salvo in an attempt to increase your interest in his blog…these are my 2 favorite blogs/sites).

  • JQ

    Susan:

    Without full text access it will be impossible to tell for sure (I manged to get it for free for one of the studies at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992446/), but I think that it is probably the same dataset. Reasons:
    1) Shared first author
    2) Shared last author
    3) The above pattern is typical of grad students publishing work from their thesis/dissertation with their adviser and the lead author is being supervised in his graduate work by the last author on both papers (see http://www.irsp.ucla.edu/Pages/GradTrainees/Justin.html). As a bonus, all of the authors across both papers are at UCLA.
    4) same number of couples in the dataset
    5) Google searching for the NIMH grant number listed in the acknowledgements in the full text at the link above suggests that this same grant number (to the probable adviser no less) appears in the more recent article as well as the 2010 article. That grant number is “National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) Grant MH48674″. As this isn’t the full grant number, I’m apparently not clever enough to find the grant in the database from the part which is provided, but likely this is where the big money for performing the original data collection came from.
    6) If you do a Google scholar search on the lead author of both papers and look at who is citing his papers, both he and his co-authors are citing earlier work in later papers (the 2012 paper doesn’t appear to cite the 2010 paper directly, but does cite other of his papers which cite the 2010 paper) The intermediate paper is entitled: “Incremental change or initial differences? Testing two models of marital deterioration” and was published in 2012.
    7) it is a common strategy for a graduate student to milk their dissertation for several papers and multiple conference proceedings articles before entering the academic labour market.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      Thank you, as always, for the due diligence. IDK, perhaps that doesn’t negate the findings, but it seems odd to look at a population of “doubters” on one hand, and then measure marital satisfaction without regard to doubt on the other. There’s a sort of willful ignorance there that makes me uneasy.

  • Ramble

    I meant that even if you could make all the promiscuous college women feel ashamed, there’s still the culture giving them positive reinforcement for that behavior.

    If all of the college girls were ashamed of promiscuous behaviour, then (pop) culture would change. I mean, people are thoroughly ashamed of how racist there grandparents were and, well, how many movies and TV shows do you see promoting (white) racism?

  • J

    If the bride’s father is not picking up the tab, a big party makes no sense. Much better to invest that money.

    Even then, I’d prefer that money be given as a down payment for a house or starter cash for a business. My folks gave us a big wedding, and most of the people invited were family and/or people whose kids’ weddings my folks attended. Our own guest list was comparatively smaller. My dress, custom made by a friend who was a professional theatrical costumer, cost $400 and was magnificent.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Even then, I’d prefer that money be given as a down payment for a house or starter cash for a business.

      Yes, we will offer our daughter the choice. However, I do recall wanting my wedding to be special. It was small (75) but fancy. I wouldn’t have traded it for the cash.

  • Tasmin

    @J@HanSolo
    “I like your explanation based on Maslow, unappreciated providers, unhappy men compartmentalizing and unhappy women bailing out.”

    Yeah the needs fulfillment definitely plays a role. For the most part, relationships have become too much like the gravy and not enough like the potatoes. And I can relate to that compartmentzlized approach, but not as a means to expand my reach so to say, but rather to protect and preserve my commitments, my obligations to the (many) things I place beyond my own “happiness”.

    I watched a movie a little while back called “Act of Valor” or something like that. Basically a Navy SEALS promo. In any case, there is some dialogue referencing what it is to be a “man” and there is direct reference to this compartmentalization; to “square that shit away”, to “lock it down” and go do what we have to do.

    Regardless of the mental health aspects of that approach, I’ve always felt that it is my duty as a man to regularly subordinate for the benefit of something bigger than me. Compartmentalizing felt like a natural process to achieve this, with prioritization following accordingly. Whether that approach was learned or innate, my needs have always been on the ready to get locked-down in order to press on.

    Compartmentalization could certainly be used to accomodate multiple relationships, but in my experience it was more likely to happen when those parts of a man: family/relationship, career, service, intersected with illness, death, economic stress, conflict, etc. And in that, I tend to agree with that film: I am a collage of those compartments; you cannot remove one without greatly impacting the whole; it is not an option, it is the “it”.

    And for me, my marriage was a big compartment, a part of me. For her, it was a nice thing to have; it rounded out her otherwise plentiful life, it was a part of her life. When those other things intersected our life – and they all did, pretty much at once, I entrenched, dug in, “locked it down”. I saw it as two people in a foxhole, back-to-back. I assumed that she had my back because I had hers. That assumption that was never up for discussion nor was it based on barter, exchange, or measurement; it was structural, the very framework of the relationship. Apparently for her, it was always an exchange, a trade-off.

    That might have worked but for the fact that I was not the counterparty to that trade, it was her own happiness, unilateral happiness tied to a whole host of externally driven variables, including readily available options for other forms of gravy that were available without the growing costs of maintaining our relationship. Costs that I saw in terms of lost time, suboptimal exhanges of emotions, physical proximity, etc. and that she saw as impediments to optimizing her happiness.

    It wasn’t that I needed her more, there wasn’t a dependency or power issue. I had my own great career, peaking SMV, etc. But in subordinating my happiness too far, assuming that she saw the relationship in the same way as me, and failing to take action to assert my will in the world, I became too entrenched, too compartmentalized to even recognize my true self, my true needs, let alone figure out how to prioritize them.

    In my heart I knew where she stood – and knowing was the feeback loop that held me in that foxhole, keeping my head down, afraid to lean back and have to acknolege that I was actually alone.

    This isn’t about how I am “honorable” and she is not. I fully own my role in our relationship. But the experience showed me how strength and commitment are hollow and fragile without a shared direction and my own sense of purpose and that showing vulnerability is now where near as dangerous as hiding fear. So while I still compartmentalize, I have changed the priorities in terms of what I “square away” first before I do what I have to do. And I try to keep in mind that “Scared money can’t win and a woried man can’t love.”

  • Plain Jane

    HanSolo,
    “Parenthetically, it’s hard to imagine a straight man romantically loving a woman without lusting after her too. I suppose it’s possible for really low sex-drive, almost asexual kind of guys.”

    Visit South Asia sometime.

    “So, I agree that deep attachment is way more likely when lust and romantic love are there but I thought she gave the example of two people who never really had much lust and romance but lived together for so long that they grew attached, sort of like really good friends”

    Susan replied,
    “You’re right, that makes sense. PJ gave the example of arranged marriages too. I’m sure that even some successful ones never grow to include lust. I stand corrected.”

    Yes some do grow to include lust and intense romantic passion, but that’s not the point of arranged marriage and its not even considered a necessary component. Its “nice” if it happens, but if it doesn’t, oh well no biggie. And in some instances, depending on the families, its considered a detriment to the larger extended family IF too much lust and intense romantic passion develops between the couple because their attachment to each other will override the goals and unity of the larger extended family unit. This is the dynamic in many joint family households where brides go to live with their in-laws.

    Though I said Helen Fisher’s theory is culture specific, it doesn’t mean I disagree with it or see it as a negative. I’ve seen enough damage down to married couples following the model of my culture that I am describing above to not be totally sold to our ancient ideals either.

    One thing to note though, a sexless marriage, after the kids have already been delivered, is not considered a bad thing in my culture. Nobody will really sympathize with a 35 year old wife or husband who complains about lack of quantity or quality sex, including orgasms, in their marriage.

    Many people would consider it strange for couples to make sex a priority after a certain (still young) age, and once they’ve had kids. In a sense, like HanSolo said above, its almost like an asexual culture in that way.

  • HanSolo

    Being non-judgemental and presenting the likely causal outcome is more effective for reasonable people. If you do a then b results, if you do c you get d. Which do you want? Moral judgement often takes the form of don’t do a because it’s bad.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    ” Another woman told me she would never let her daughter shave her pubic hair, but I knew for a fact that all of the girls had been doing it for years. ”

    Oh I wanted to mention that this mother was probably playing lip service to you. Pubic hair removal is easy to spot if you are really against it. My mother forbidden me to ever get a tattoo while I lived with my parents and I could tell she was paying attention when I was wearing summer clothing and beachwear and “accidentally” she used to walk out on me on the bathroom once in a while. I knew I wouldn’t get away with it in a million years so this mothers might be on denial or just trying to look concerned but just weren’t really interested, when you want to know what your kids are up to, to find your ways, YMMV.

  • Ramble

    Then they would spill, and I would say, “And you believed him?” etc.

    Susan, that is judgement. You are basically saying to her, “I can’t believe you were such an idiot”, which is most definitely a judgement.

    It is extremely hard NOT to judge. It is probably inhuman.

    I am guessing that what you did was create an atmosphere where they felt comfortable being honest about their failures (and successes).

    I am not saying that you could have communicated to them any and all judgements that were thinking, but that judgement was very unlikely absent from the formula.

    Judging, is a good thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      I am guessing that what you did was create an atmosphere where they felt comfortable being honest about their failures (and successes).

      You’re right, I did judge them in the form of “You’re being an idiot.” This was said with affection, and they were able to hear this. I did not ever say, “That is slutty.” or “That is a sin.” They figured out pretty quickly what I thought was a good idea and what was stupid. Of course, this is what inspired the blog name. I knew they wanted cross-sex interaction, but I told them they had to start being smart about it.

  • Ramble

    Judging, is a good thing.

    I don’t know why there is a comma there.

  • Escoffier

    Susan @ 134 I find profoundly depressing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I was literally tormented at times, wracked with guilt for not sharing information the girls had revealed. I did my best to influence them.

      One of the most surprising things was that I suspect some of these women had their share of ONSs and flings when they were young. The mother of the girl giving BJs basically dressed like a hooker most of the time. Yet they were very unrealistic and prudish in their attitudes towards sex where their daughters were concerned.

      I’ll never forget the moment when one of my favorite girls – a best friend of my daughter’s since 7th grade – looked at me and said, “He promised at the school dance that if I gave him a BJ he would make me his girlfriend. But it’s been a week and he hasn’t even called me. What do you think I should do?” I felt heartbroken.

      You are way ahead of the curve, your children will not suffer the same fate. There was never a chance of my kids being in this situation, because we kept all topics acceptable and encouraged them to talk about stuff. Also, FWIW, I am convinced that sharing my own failures and fits & starts in the SMP made me approachable to my kids. They knew the story of how Mr. HUS and I got together, for example. A bit scandalous, I suppose, but they saw us as human as a result. There was a clear link between my sharing stories (nothing graphic) and their asking questions. I recommend this approach.

  • Abbot

    “people are thoroughly ashamed of how racist there grandparents were”

    The parallel would be being ashamed of how one treated their sexuality, so cheaply; something that actually is very precious and yet was approvingly tossed to the wind…

  • Plain Jane

    “There was never a chance of my kids being in this situation, because we kept all topics acceptable and encouraged them to talk about stuff”

    Just because you kept all topics acceptable and encouraged them to talk does not mean they did.

    What kid wants to talk to their parents about their sex lives?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just because you kept all topics acceptable and encouraged them to talk does not mean they did.

      What kid wants to talk to their parents about their sex lives?

      They didn’t confess anything, but they asked a lot of questions, and they listened. I could see the wheels turning.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    That’s amazing and scary. I have no idea how my parents met. Heck, my father was divorced and they never told me. I’m of the generation who much more formal realtionships with their parents, I suppose. Things change quickly as they are only a little older than you.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Esc, my plan for the girl is to watch her like a hawk, and for the boys, give them as much freedom as possible. I hope it will balance out their natural tendencies.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Esc, my plan for the girl is to watch her like a hawk, and for the boys, give them as much freedom as possible. I hope it will balance out their natural tendencies.

      I think that is an excellent plan. You should know that your input will be very important to your daughter – when you speak about men, you will have authority and expertise. She will assign you more credibility than her mother. My daughter is 23 and she still relies on my husband’s judgment about men.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan Walsh October 5, 2012 at 9:36 pm

    @OTC

    Esc, my plan for the girl is to watch her like a hawk, and for the boys, give them as much freedom as possible. I hope it will balance out their natural tendencies.

    I think that is an excellent plan. You should know that your input will be very important to your daughter – when you speak about men, you will have authority and expertise. She will assign you more credibility than her mother. My daughter is 23 and she still relies on my husband’s judgment about men.
    ———————-

    Not so fast. Your daughter might feel oppressed and stifled and therefore rebel – becoming a baby mama by 17, while your son may either seize the oppurtunities you have essentially given him a wink and a nod for and become the local bad-boy-panty-slayer and multiple babies’ daddy OR flow in the opposite direction and become a sheepish omega male.

    How about just one honest, logical and ethical standard for everyone?

  • JP

    “Being non-judgemental and presenting the likely causal outcome is more effective for reasonable people. If you do a then b results, if you do c you get d. Which do you want? Moral judgement often takes the form of don’t do a because it’s bad.”

    What about Games People Play?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_(book)

  • Desiderius

    Ramble,

    “But not that many Protestants (especially of the traditional, modest, hard working type that shunned iconography).”

    That’s what the second and third generation are for. There is a pretty prevalent generational cycle in Christian cultures that looks something like this:

    Evangelical->Institutional->Secular Achievers->Nihilist Slackers->Evangelical

    With the arrows denoting the begats. The secular cycles in American culture identified by Strauss and Howe are actually an echo of the older religious ones.

  • Desiderius

    The process you describe in your engagement with your focus groups opens with non-judgmentalism to build trust (which is why they opened up for you), but then you very much provided guidance informed by judgment, which is why they have stuck around.

    You’re just unaware of what you’re already doing in the second stage.

    There’s actually a third stage there where you help them develop the capacity to accurate judge themselves and their own actions, which it sounds like you’re already doing as well.

    Whenever the MRA’s show up, you don’t much like their judgments, so you have an allergic reaction where you retreat to the nonjudgmentalism comfort zone, but that’s not actually what you do when they’re not around.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      Whenever the MRA’s show up, you don’t much like their judgments, so you have an allergic reaction where you retreat to the nonjudgmentalism comfort zone, but that’s not actually what you do when they’re not around.

      What an interesting observation, you may be right. I’m going to try and note how this works.

      You’re also right about the focus groups – they know they can tell me anything, but they also say, “Oh no! Sue is giving me the raised eyebrow!” Or, “Sue, I’m afraid to tell you I saw Mike, you’re going to be mad at me.” This reflects not my actual reactions to them, but their awareness that I’ve given them advice, they discarded it, and now they’ve got a new problem. They are judging themselves, via implied judgment by me.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “I’ve come to believe that shaming is not the answer. It attacks individuals for behaviors, but not the underlying beliefs that drive behaviors.”

    If shame is an attack, it has been abused.

    If I call you “shameless” would you take that as a compliment? I’ve done three things this week I was later (mildly) ashamed of, and some significant things over the past ten years. In all cases, the awareness and impetus to change brought by that shame has made me a better man.

    We are none blameless, but many shameless. How’s that working out?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      If I call you “shameless” would you take that as a compliment?

      Touche. I have often said that shame is a very important tool in forming and maintaining civilization. It is important, certainly, to withhold approval for behaviors that are detrimental to society as a whole.

      In this case, I think shaming promiscuity – in the form of slut shaming – is not going to be effective, because the culture is producing new sluts at a pretty rapid clip. The church has tried moralizing, and young couples who have taken the pledge are second only to gay men in their use of anal sex. Sorry, but it’s true. Technically, virginity is maintained. Talk about loopholes.

      Peers have much more influence than adults do, and today misinformation in the form of Pluralistic Ignorance is influencing behavior, even though people are uncomfortable with it. If you could wave a wand and share the real stats about hooking up on campuses, the culture would dramatically shift overnight, and that would create a space to allow emotional intimacy back in as something young people experience before sex.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “LMAO, did you make that up? You ought to copyright it, it’s the perfect ‘sphere slogan.”

    Yes, I did. Always been catnip for married women. Single women compare you to their ideal (at least the high-N women to whom I’m attracted), married women to their husbands. Doesn’t take a genius to see which bar is lower. The hottest married women who brazenly approach are those with the biggest rocks.

    (one area in which I do allow myself some pride is the fact that I’ve never pursued one of those ample opportunities)

    BB pointed out that the man always has to bring more alpha than the woman. One thing less well understood is the damage involved in bringing more beta than she does. You’re encroaching on her territory there. The bigger the rock, the bigger the DLV.

  • Desiderius

    Passerby,

    “I gave my virgin first wife a 1.3 karat ring. We had a largely sexless marriage, and she eventually cheated, despite me being a good 1 or 2 points higher than her in SMV (in all modesty).”

    Another good rule of thumb for healthy relationships/marriages is making sure the woman is (slightly) higher SMV than the man. Another case of encroaching on her territory otherwise. Especially if the man is determined to be modest…

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Also, FWIW, I am convinced that sharing my own failures and fits & starts in the SMP made me approachable to my kids. They knew the story of how Mr. HUS and I got together, for example. A bit scandalous, I suppose, but they saw us as human as a result. There was a clear link between my sharing stories (nothing graphic) and their asking questions. I recommend this approach.”

    Bingo. You set the tone that confession (and that’s exactly what it is – is it the sex scandals that made that word uncomfortable for you?) is the first step to both building trust and positive change. Can’t learn from our mistakes if we aren’t even aware of them (often due to trying to keep up the “perfect” front).

  • HerrKaiser

    @Susan,
    Since we are on the topic of marriage, I want to relate a story I heard last week. I was playing tennis with one of my junior employees and he made an offhand comment about his neighbors; when I asked for more details, he relayed facts that painted a very different picture than the conclusion he had reached. He told me that his 22 year-old neighbor “Mark” was recently crying because his girlfriend “Ann” refused to marry him. He went on to explain that “Ann” is also 21 years old and at the age of 17 she became pregnant by a “meth addicted loser”; she elect to keep the child. About two years later, “Ann” met “Mark”; they currently live together in a house they rent. About four years ago, “Ann” became pregnant again with a child she claims is “Mark’s”; however, at the time of the child birth they were going through a spat; she claims she was so upset with “Mark”, she placed the name of the first child’s father on the birth certificate out of sheer spite. At this point I should mention that “the meth addicted loser” father of the first child happens to be a friend of their neighbors directly across the street and as such is a frequent visitor to their neighborhood. Anyway, “Ann” is a stay at home mom to her two children while “Mark” works full-time as a welder paying the household bills; feeding and clothing her children. I should also note that “Mark” is supporting “Ann” while she is going to school for a nursing degree; she is about a year from completion. My employee mentioned that “Ann” told “Mark” she will not marry him because “he drinks beer and does pot”; I asked if he was an alcoholic or smoked in front of the children, he noted that he never seen Mark drunk or even buzzed and that he never smoked in front of the children. I said, “and didn’t he do all of those things before they got together”. My employee then expressed his hope that they would work the situation out; I told him that “Ann” was a whore and “Mark” was a chump. I explained that “Ann” would not marry “Mark” because she is using him; she is using him to support her and her children (I don’t believe the second child is “Mark’s”) while she is in nursing school and as soon as she graduates and is making $120,000.00 a year, she will dump him. Moreover, because they were never married, he can’t even get alimony for supporting her when she was in school. I feel sorry for “Mark”; I am betting he won’t even see the break-up coming; he may grow bitter; or become a player; or lean his lesson and move on. He can at least take comfort in knowing that the doctors “Ann” hopes to snag are only going to use her for practice.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HerrKaiser

      What a horrible story, I share your interpretation of Ann’s motives. Just for giggles, let’s enumerate the red flags in this story.

      1. Ann had sex previously with meth addicted loser.
      2. Ann did not use birth control while having sex with said loser.
      3. Loser spawn is very likely to have same tendencies as Dad – a world of trouble coming down the pike.
      4. Mark cohabits and pays all the bills, giving Ann everything she wants and getting nothing in return.
      5. Ann’s action re the birth certificate is obscene, a sort of “reverse cuckolding.” Mark should have ordered a paternity test immediately.
      6. Ann’s hypocrisy in disqualifying Mark based on beer and pot is laughable. Talk about price discrimination!

      Here is what Mark should but won’t do:

      1. Test for paternity immediately.
      2. If the second child is not his, leave the apartment and cut off all financial support.
      3. If the second child is his, end cohabitation and stop supporting her while providing for the child.

  • Desiderius

    “high-N women”

    Oops – that’s Myers-Briggs, not number of partners.

  • INTJ

    @ Desi

    “high-N women”

    Oops – that’s Myers-Briggs, not number of partners.

    ROFL. I was wondering what you were saying…

  • J

    Esc, my plan for the girl is to watch her like a hawk,

    I’ve seen that backfire rather badly when the girl goes nuts at her first taste of freedom. Karen Owens, the preacher’s daughter, is probably an example.

    and for the boys, give them as much freedom as possible.

    I think kids should have as much freedom as they can handle, but you really need to be aware of how they are handling that freedom. I am assuming also that you mean freedom and not license. When you give the latter, you are essentially cancelling out the benfit of having a father as disciplinarian.

  • J

    @Desi

    Post #177 is brilliant.

  • J

    “I like your explanation based on Maslow, unappreciated providers, unhappy men compartmentalizing and unhappy women bailing out.”

    Thanks, Han. I appreciate your praise.

    @Tasmin

    “Regardless of the mental health aspects of that approach, I’ve always felt that it is my duty as a man to regularly subordinate for the benefit of something bigger than me. Compartmentalizing felt like a natural process to achieve this, with prioritization following accordingly. Whether that approach was learned or innate, my needs have always been on the ready to get locked-down in order to press on.”

    I’m not really sure what to say about the rest of your post, but I will say that men tend to be great at compartmentalizing and that it drives women nuts. I can stay up all night worrying about a crisis while DH snores away. I once woke him so we could be miserable together, and he pointed out that he would be fresh in the morning when he could actually tackle the problem, but I’d be useless. This of course is true, but at the time I resented what I felt was his not caring enought to worry.

    I liked your trench metaphor. I like to think DH and I have each others’ backs. That’s the way a marriage should be IMO. I’m sorry your marriage didn’t work out. I’m not sure I can relate to what you think your wife’s feeling were, so it’s hard to comment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I once woke him so we could be miserable together, and he pointed out that he would be fresh in the morning when he could actually tackle the problem, but I’d be useless. This of course is true, but at the time I resented what I felt was his not caring enough to worry.

      I learned in marriage that “never go to bed angry” is most useful for women. I might toss and turn for hours, then give up and get up at 3 am, while Mr. HUS would happily snore the night away. At those times, I would often give more and harder “friendly, anti-snoring shoves” than was necessary.

  • J

    @Marellus #75

    Thanks for the virtual flower. It’s very pretty.

    Is that one of those huge cactus flowers that reeks?

  • J

    Hmmm, this sounds sensible, but how does that square with women cheating as often as men do?

    We caught up? I hadn’t realized that.

    Or are you saying that in a marriage where neither party is getting their needs met, both are equally likely to cheat, but it’s the female cheating that leads to divorce? (Due to the compartmentalization?)

    I think that when a woman cheats she is most likely done emotionally; it’s over in her mind even if she hasn’t filed yet. A man is more likely to try to balance a harem because he can compartmentalize. That’s why male cheaters will say they still love their wives or that cheating doesn’t hurt their wives. In their heads, it doesn’t take away from the relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Helen Fisher says we’ve caught up, based on her research. I think most other estimates say around 25% of men cheat, and 18% of women (approx.). Of course, it’s very difficult to get at real data on this question.

  • chris

    @ Susan Walsh

    You might find this an interesting read when it is published in 2013.

    Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream – and Why It Matters

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594036756/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1594036756&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwviolentkicom

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Chris

      I have enormous respect for Dr. Helen – I didn’t know she had a book coming out, and I look forward to reading it.

  • HanSolo

    @chris

    Looks interesting.

  • HanSolo

    Her blog http://pjmedia.com/drhelen has some interesting articles on men’s issues.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve seen that backfire rather badly when the girl goes nuts at her first taste of freedom. Karen Owens, the preacher’s daughter, is probably an example.

    Err did I mentioned that most of my college friends were virgins when they meet their hubbies? In fact I would go on a limb and say that any Dominican woman that is in college and doesn’t have a baby has a 80% chance or more of being a virgin, I still have single friends that are virgins after 25 not for lack of opportunities.
    IME, this strategy backfires when the girl really has the heart of a slut (develops early and has too many sexual hormones to control herself once out of daddy’s watch, thankfully I don’t think this is common), she suffers sexual abuse or she discovers that her parents are hypocrites. Most of my friends that didn’t ended up virgins lost the desire to “live up to daddy’s expectations” were the ones whose daddy’s had kids outside the home, cheated on their moms or had wild teenager years and were discovered or some gossiping relative told on them to their kids.
    I think as long as OTC never, ever, reveals his “sexual experimentation” (if you have pics or videos you better destroy them), unless her daughter inherits the “thirst for it biologically (not a lot to do there pal except birth control training from preschool and Planned Parenthood numbers at hand at all times) has a good chance of being successful at it, all girls that admire their dads want to make him proud and if he expects sexual modesty she will be thinking long and hard before she gives it up to any loser,YMMV.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @J

    Is that one of those huge cactus flowers that reeks?

    Nope … it’s a fynbos … and its sweet intoxicating odours will make you wanna listen quite enraptured to this … and then inspire you to become a missionary for The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster … and if you keep this up … I do most solemnly promise to send you a whole box of them … :-D

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser #183

    How many more stories are there of this ? We’ll never know. Have you ever read something that draws a comparison between the decline of a nation, and the morals of their women ?

  • Just1X

    @Marellus

    why is that singer dressed as a chicken?

    I know that she sounds like a distressed chicken, but why make it worse by dressing as one?

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Just1X

    Shhhhhhhh … you’re spoiling the fun !

  • Darsh

    Der Hölle Rache can sound so much better than that recording. :(

    One of the links on that page leads to Diana Damrau’s performance of der Hölle Rache, which is far better in quality. The singing starts at 2:10. One of my favourite arias. The most impressive part is at 2:49 to 3:02 IMO. :)

  • J

    But you are not feminist or a MRA

    LOL. I’m sure there are some guys in the ‘sphere who consider me some sort of archfeminist.

    Thank you. Somedays I feel like I was a coward to leave, some other days specially when my mom is sick, I was the only one that took time to take care of her when she was ill, I feel like an ungrateful bitch. Some other times I just feel lonely and want to go and eat Dominican cake and a morir soñando and talk to my friends about “el patio” like we like to call my island and realize I can’t anymore. Is specially hard being pregnant and having my mom calling me everyday “Do you have my baby yet?” But this are just moments of sadness I’m truly happy with my husband and I’m happy that I’m becoming a mom.

    I’m sure despite the separation, your mom is happy to see you happy with your husband and the baby. When is he due BTW? In a few weeks?

    I googled morir soñando. There was a recipe similar to it on a kids’ TV show when my guys were little. We used to make it all the time. It’s like a liquid dreamsicle.

  • J

    I’ve done three things this week I was later (mildly) ashamed of, and some significant things over the past ten years. In all cases, the awareness and impetus to change brought by that shame has made me a better man.

    I thnk that’s guilt, not shame.

  • J

    @Ana #198

    It’s a different culture here, Ana. Kids get damn near unlimited freedom at 18. The ones who can’t handle freedom tend to be the ones who were the least or most restricted at home. The sheltered grel who goes nuts without parental direction or walks blindly in danger out of naivete is a common enough phenomenon, almost a stereotype.

  • J

    @Marellus

    Wow! How did you first become aware of THAT?

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @J

    … buy me a beer and I’ll tell you … ummmm … come to think of it … rather buy me two …

  • Abbot

    How can men not have jitters coming right out of a psuedo-polygamous hook-up culture?

  • Kathy

    “More recently, things have got ‘interesting’, my feelings are stronger this time, but I don’t know what will happen as there are complications on her side. Given that there is no such thing as true anonymity, that’s all I’m going to say. Sooner, or later, she would discover that I am Just1X on HUS. Whatever happens, the experience has changed my attitude to life, I’m not going to fit back as an MGTOW quite as well if ‘she’ doesn’t work out.”

    Hey, Just1x ! Am very happy that things seem to be working out for you.
    You are a very perceptive and intuitive guy. I don’t want to offend you and say nice guy.. (but that’s what you are, imo)

    Will keep you in my prayers.. I really mean that!
    I know you don’t go for all that stuff, but hey, can’t hurt, eh? :D

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Yes, but we’re talking about white women and African-American women. Not all of us has an Asian/African/Islands fetish, you getting my drift? I hardly know any older male who went to poor as hell Countries to find a wife.

    Hey! we are not poor as hell! We are just poor. :p. I mostly meant as an example that watching your girls sexuality is not a lost endeavor. Most of the sex positivist movement focus on the “preacher’s daughter that became a hooker” ignoring the majority that just grew up to be a boring normal housewife and mother.

    Nope … it’s a fynbos … and its sweet intoxicating odours will make you wanna listen quite enraptured to this … and then inspire you to become a missionary for The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster … and if you keep this up … I do most solemnly promise to send you a whole box of them …

    Infidel! We Bob followers won’t listen to this blasphemy! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius

    LOL. I’m sure there are some guys in the ‘sphere who consider me some sort of archfeminist.

    I’m sure they do but then I’m not a guy ;)

    I’m sure despite the separation, your mom is happy to see you happy with your husband and the baby. When is he due BTW? In a few weeks?

    I know is just one of those things that comes and goes. I’m due in two weeks or less.

    It’s a different culture here, Ana. Kids get damn near unlimited freedom at 18. The ones who can’t handle freedom tend to be the ones who were the least or most restricted at home. The sheltered grel who goes nuts without parental direction or walks blindly in danger out of naivete is a common enough phenomenon, almost a stereotype.

    This is cliche in my culture too. Still the majority of the ones that made it were from restricted homes the majority of the girls that became sluts came from the mothers that were too busy slutty themselves or working to pay any attention to them. I wish we could find the Data but if I remember my psychology right a kid the two extremes are bad but a neglectful lax parent will get worse citizens than an strict one by a huge factor. No that I support extremes I’m just saying that if you are going to pick a extreme in sexuality terms pick the stricter even the ones that end up slutting it up will start later and in my book every day you help to delay sex for your immature kid you won.

    In this case, I think shaming promiscuity – in the form of slut shaming – is not going to be effective, because the culture is producing new sluts at a pretty rapid clip. The church has tried moralizing, and young couples who have taken the pledge are second only to gay men in their use of anal sex. Sorry, but it’s true. Technically, virginity is maintained. Talk about loopholes.

    If you allow me to use this to comment on Shame…
    Shame like most social tools needs the right context and audience to work IME shame works better on:
    *Extroverts:
    As mentioned before extroverts need people, they need then to like them, to approve of them and to feel seek out and needed when shaming someone had a real consequence on their social life this was a HUGE way to keep them at bay. Even if deep inside they felt whatever the price was high to pay.
    *Small communities:
    Well this one ties with the above. If you need everyone for everything in a small community public shame can does a huge difference in the quality of your life and the lives of your loved ones. The only bakery in miles can decide not to sell your bread or buy your butter because of some transgression you did so why do it? And you will make damn sure your kids and relatives don’t do it either. Of course there is always a minority that won’t care but this minority grows as the consequences lessened and people acquired mobility. Don’t want my bread? I will go to another place to sell it. Is the same with college you are away from your peers and they will probably never know so why not? The new community approves it and endorse so lets get wild!
    *Authoritative figures disapproval:
    As mentioned before “shiny people” like priests and royalty (and now sadly celebrities) dictate the norm. Everyone here probably remembers how the potatoes , considered poisonous and evil at the time, were redeemed in Europe as valuable food:
    In 1785, Louis XVI (1754–1793), King of France, to encourage cultivation of potatoes. The King let him plant 100 useless acres outside Paris, France in potatoes with troops keeping the field heavily guarded. This aroused public curiosity and the people decided that anything so carefully guarded must be valuable. One night Parmentier allowed the guards to go off duty, and the local farmers, as he had hoped, went into the field, confiscated the potatoes and planted them on their own farms. From this small start, the habit of growing and eating potatoes spread. It is said that Marie Antoinette (1755-1793), Queen of France and married to Louis XVI, often pinned potato flowers in her curls. Because of her, ladies of the era wore potato blossoms in their hair.
    Things like the color of skin, or desirable shape are also usually dictated by what they have in abundance. When staying in the house was a royalty thing being really pale was a sign of beauty but once Industrial Revolution made that the normal condition having a tan because you could afford to travel to a nice beach became the hot thing to do.The power of shiny was strong on these ones…In the same vein what the shiny consider hurtful for society, true or not becomes shameful.
    *Immediate consequences: This one is easy. “If you have sex you will get pregnant and die” only works if you have a big chunk of women actually getting pregnant and dying.
    So that is for now about shame and as usual, YMMV.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “In this case, I think shaming promiscuity – in the form of slut shaming – is not going to be effective, because the culture is producing new sluts at a pretty rapid clip. The church has tried moralizing, and young couples who have taken the pledge are second only to gay men in their use of anal sex. Sorry, but it’s true. Technically, virginity is maintained. Talk about loopholes.”

    The non-confessing church of various stripes – i.e. the church that puts on a perfection front as bad as any in the secular world. In contrast, you confessed your own fallen humanity and were heard where others were tuned out. As you note, promiscuity is already being shamed by their peers, and that’s gaining. If you’re not willing to at least acknowledge that new emerging norm and shame (in love) such behavior, you’ll be at risk of being tuned out for that very unwillingness.

    “Peers have much more influence than adults do”

    Meh. I’m not very good at remembering studies, but I seem to remember this one being challenged at one point with some surprising results. That meme is another convenient one for Boomer self-actualizers to adopt to justify their disengagement, so some skepticism is warranted.

    “If you could wave a wand and share the real stats about hooking up on campuses”

    Um, you do and are. You’re not alone.

    “the culture would dramatically shift overnight”

    It already is, but change that big doesn’t happen overnight. There is such a thing as a preference cascade that Dr. Smith’s husband likes to talk about, so it may appear that way to those unlike yourself who weren’t part of creating it.

    “and that would create a space to allow emotional intimacy back in as something young people experience before sex.”

    Allow isn’t enough. Learning how to actually nurture it is then required, and in that area, you’re a pretty damn good teacher.

  • Just1X

    @Kathy

    appreciated, we’ll just have to see…

    cheers

  • Höllenhund

    “Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream – and Why It Matters”

    I have great respect for Dr. Helen, but this is a rather curious choice of words. “Strike” implies that all men have organized themselves to abstain from marriage but nevertheless they’ll dutifully go back to “work” once the management offers them a slightly better deal by throwing them a few crumbs of bread or something. Plus it completely ignores how women are delaying and avoiding marriage en masse. “Boycott” implies that men are avoiding the role of pack mules as a sign of organized protest.

    I’m looking forward to a book entitled “Men Going Their Own Way: Why Men Are Leaving The Plantation And Why They Don’t Give A Damn About Your Opinion”.

  • Just1X

    “Men Going Their Own Way: Why Men Are Leaving The Plantation And Why They Don’t Give A Damn About Your Opinion”.

    Put me down for a copy, sounds like a classic read…

  • Abbot

    “Max 5: The Rise of Men Who Will Not Marry Sluts”

  • Desiderius

    Hollenhund,

    Do you have any other game to play than perfect: enemy of the good? You do realize that that is the same game the feminists and all their progressive (sic) enablers play too, right?

    The traditional Apostle’s Creed (before it was castrated by the feminists) contained a line about Christ descending into hell for three days before rising again. I picture him there tying the tails of all you hellhounds together and letting you pull each other to pieces, with a little extra wrath for the Prussian ones.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Ana

    Infidel! We Bob followers won’t listen to this blasphemy!

    You blasphenoodle ! Bob watched Spaghetti Westerns !!! … Now go and eat A Fistful Of …

    … Pasta

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan.

    Technically, virginity is maintained. Talk about loopholes.

    … butt seriously ?

  • Sai

    @Anacaona
    “Immediate consequences: This one is easy. “If you have sex you will get pregnant and die” only works if you have a big chunk of women actually getting pregnant and dying.”

    But we do have a big chunk of women (and men!) going home with conditions like these:
    (NSFW like a boss)
    http://news.menshealth.com/americas-most-std-infested-states/2012/04/05/
    http://www.beltina.org/pics/chlamydia.jpg
    http://image.funscrape.com/images/c/chlamydia_infection-13384.jpg
    http://www.causticsodapodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/chlamydia2.jpg
    http://www.herpes-terminator.com/images/chlamydia3.jpg
    http://www.beltina.org/pics/gonorrhea.jpg
    http://manbir-online.com/grafics/Gonorrhea2.jpg
    http://im.glogster.com/media/4/35/3/57/35035749.jpg
    http://www.urology-textbook.com/01/Gonorrhoe1.jpg
    http://www.trying-to-conceive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/gonorrhea.jpg
    (That one is actually kind of cute to me, but I used to want to be a doctor, so…)
    http://thedailyrisk.com/photos/ScabiesPenis.png
    http://0.tqn.com/d/std/1/0/M/-/-/-/scabies.jpg
    http://www.afraidtoask.com/images/hpvvag.gif
    http://yourstdhelp.com/images/herpes118.jpg
    http://test.pyaarkibaatein.com/data/files/pyaarkibaatein/std-female-genital-warts.jpg
    http://babyboomeradvisorclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/genital%20warts%2054.jpg
    http://sti.bmj.com/content/81/6/448/F4.large.jpg
    http://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/herpes-mouth.jpg
    http://reveal4real.org/images/STDs/herpes.png
    http://missinglink.ucsf.edu/lm/DermatologyGlossary/img/Dermatology%20Glossary/Glossary%20Clinical%20Images/Herpes_Simplex_tongue-XX.jpg
    http://www.dermnet.com/dn2/allJPG3/herpes-immunocompromised-6.jpg
    http://www.whathealth.com/genitalherpes/images/vaginal-herpes-photo.jpg
    http://test.pyaarkibaatein.com/data/files/pyaarkibaatein/std-female-syphilis.jpg
    http://www.walnet.org/sos/primarysyphilis.jpg
    http://dermatology.cdlib.org/1609/2_case_presentations/3_10-00189/1.jpg
    http://dermatology.cdlib.org/1702/3_case_presentations/5_10-00302/1.jpg

    Who needs shame when you’ve got raw fear? :D

    I could be the most amoral, narcissistic, man-hating multi-penis gold-digger ever, but I would never go home with anyone I just met and didn’t have the chance to test. Also, gonorrhea is becoming more resistant to drugs…
    http://media.santabanta.com/images/picsms/2012/Adult-std.jpg

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Re: “Men on Strike.” I look forward to that book and agree with the author’s blurb that men are responding rationally to the incentives that they have been given.

    It’s unconsciously embedded in the cultural at this point: heroic, role-model-worthy males of film and TV are usually portrayed as hardcore bachelors with self-contained, independent, high-N lifestyles and discretionary resources available for workouts, adventure travel, and consumption behaviors, while family men are portrayed as hapless, emasculated, and physically soft buffoons who show a domesticated sheep’s mindless obedience to well-organized, sarcastic “superior wives” and narcissistic pop-star wannabe kids.

    I’m not saying that the media stereotypes are causing the problem; far from it, the media stereotypes are simply a function of profitability that displays how the target markets are already segmented.

  • HanSolo

    @JP

    The book looks interesting.

    Having said that presenting the likely causal consequences will be more effective than simply saying don’t do it because it’s bad doesn’t mean it will necessarily be all that effective. The fact that many of Susan’s focus group kept doing the same things over and over again and only finally learned shows that.

    It also shows how we aren’t so governed by our conscious mind. It’s only part of the equation.

    One thing I’ve read about that seem very interesting is the work of Stanislav Grof that says that in order to heal many of our wounds and really change our behavior from the root that entering the holotropic consciousness can be very useful.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Grof

    “All the cultures in human history except the Western industrial civilization have held holotropic states of consciousness in great esteem. They induced them whenever they wanted to connect to their deities, other dimensions of reality, and with the forces of nature. They also used them for diagnosing and healing, cultivation of extrasensory perception, and artistic inspiration.”

  • Ion

    @ J

    “I’ve seen that backfire rather badly when the girl goes nuts at her first taste of freedom. Karen Owens, the preacher’s daughter, is probably an example.”

    Yep, the preachers daughter being the biggest skank is a joke everyone knows.

    Girl raised in the same household where brothers do whatever they want has internalized that dad is a hypocrite, and because he was, is now justified in experiencing what the world is “really like” and yes, this can occur via multipenis as Abbott would say, or learning to lie early on to avoid dads hypocritical rules.

    Also Warren Farrell said, we learn empathy from our dads because dad’s love is conditional and based on boundaries: “seeing empathy” does not mirror back empathy in a child the way we’d like it too. Heck, a lot of the prison population grew up in a single mother household where male children were spoiled or given an abundance of freedom. In terms of men, to me it just seems redundant for dad to also warrant lots of freedom to male children when women spoil and nurture their male sons–mothers expect a lot from their daughters, project their failures onto their daughters, etc., but at least when there is a strict/disciplined father around the son gets a balanced world. I guess it depends on the melody of the household though.

  • HanSolo

    @Tasmin 157

    Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you really made your relationship with your wife a core part of who you were. I think this is much more common than the stereotypes of men, largely based on the cads, players and good men who are out of the pining woman’s league. You seem more like an anti-compartmentalizer. You didn’t keep her in a separate box, you brought her right into your main compartment, right into your heart. Now men do have outer compartments but when he brings you into the center, he brings you in.

    Tasmin, it sounds like you were a dog and she was a cat. I hope that at some point in the future, maybe the right time, you can find a loving “bitch” that will put you in her heart too.
    Raining cats and dogs:

    I think that ~80% of men are much more like dogs than we realize. Yes, many of them can and will enjoy casual sex and a smaller % will cheat (as in the derogative and vernacular usage of ‘men are dogs’) but at a deeper level men are like loyal dogs that once they’ve decided they’re in, they’re in, even if they get kicked. I envision Ted as a sad and droopy-eyed St. Bernard during the last 5 years of his first marriage–but thankfully now with a lot more joy in his eyes and lots of love and playtime.

    The cads and players act more like tomcats, out on the prowl for whatever sufficiently-attractive pussy they can get. Some find this fulfilling, others enjoy the orgasms and the ego boosts but yearn for something more.

    Many women have loyal canine hearts too, excitedly racing up to their partner and “knocking them over with affection” and simply happy to be with them no matter what they’re doing.

    The strays (both male and female) see the other dogs happily walk by and feel a mixture of sadness and yet hopeful happiness when they imagine how they would treat their partner so well, if only he would give her a chance. Once in a while they even wish they could be like the aloof and independent cats, living it up and loving the loneliness.

    But too many women have taken on or perhaps always had the emotionally aloof entitlement of the cat, being drawn to the only one in the room who ignores her more and then wildly chasing the spot of the flashlight zipping up and down the floor, only to be left empty-handed.

  • Abbot

    “experiencing what the world is “really like” and yes, this can occur via multipenis”

    It is NO man’s job or obligation to commit to such a woman no matter how she “arrived” at said multipenis, or slut phase, or “embracing her sexuality” or other total fucking asshole statements made by total fucking assholes. Men are not patcher uppers, psychologists, social workers or slut saviors.

    Society is at a crossroads and there is no way promiscuous women on average are going to come out on top as long as men have agency and remain proud and unashamed to reject sluts, overtly or otherwise.

    Are we done with this crap yet?

  • Ramble

    Evangelical->Institutional->Secular Achievers->Nihilist Slackers->Evangelical

    With the arrows denoting the begats. The secular cycles in American culture identified by Strauss and Howe are actually an echo of the older religious ones.

    I am somewhat familiar with Strauss and Howe (it was here that I was introduced to their book and then did some moderate reading), but, could you explain this?

    I am guessing that you are saying that, at some point, the move from traditional (regional) African religions to Catholicism will someday move again to something like Protestantism…is that correct? If so, where does that land on the list of “Evangelical->Institutional->Secular Achievers->Nihilist Slackers->Evangelical”?

  • Plain Jane

    “has a good chance of being successful at it, all girls that admire their dads want to make him proud and if he expects sexual modesty she will be thinking long and hard before she gives it up to any loser,YMMV.”

    Don’t know about this. As long as they are girls (teens) I can see it to some extent. But once we grow up, move out and carve our own ways in life we will make our own decisions regarding relationships and sexual activity. In my culture of course family’s opinion and cultural traditions are taken into consideration, but at the end of the day, as an adult, we make our own choices and take responsibility for them.

    As an early 30s woman I certainly don’t connect my current sexual choices directly to my parents, or experience guilt because of them or my culture.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You blasphenoodle ! Bob watched Spaghetti Westerns !!! … Now go and eat A Fistful Of …
    … Pasta

    LOL

    I googled morir soñando. There was a recipe similar to it on a kids’ TV show when my guys were little. We used to make it all the time. It’s like a liquid dreamsicle.

    I think hubby mentioned that he tasted once that I attempted to make it at home. Sadly hubby doesn’t like milk with fruit drinks (another Dominican delicatessen is papaya juice with milk) so I will have to brainwash the kids into liking those. Problem is that the fruits here don’t taste the same. Heck nothing tastes the same, first because most of the fruit selection is limited for business to be the most resistant and a particular taste American like, while I had access to fruit all year round and different (20 different types of mango, 6 different types of avocado, 10 types of oranges…) and also being a supertaster mean that that slight differences are obvious so I will never have “taste like mom used to do it” here. Oh well I guess that would be a treat when visiting home. I already told my parents that 90% of my visits will be spent eating :D

  • Just1X

    @Ana

    I tasted American bread in France – yuck, it’s sweet!

    I don’t really see the point of adding sweetness and calories to such a basic foodstuff. Meat sandwiches tasted odd with the added sugar in the bread, jam on bread tasted the same but had more calories.

    Take your carbs where they do you good – beer basically. Don’t waste them in bread.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    AFAIK, there is only that one study on Reasons for Divorcing. Even the 2/3 claim is based on one study that looked at only four states. It’s very strange, IMO. I can get data about almost every subject – but not divorce.

    Yes, this is certainly a grey area. I’ve found contradictory sources of information on the subject, but recently came across something from about 15 years ago. Maggie Gallagher, a conservative writer and commentator, very pro-marriage, wrote a book in 1996 called “The Abolition of Marriage” which criticized no-fault divorce and its effects on American family life.

    I don’t subscribe to all of her views, and haven’t read the book yet, but her research into divorce statistics included one fact that I never hear talked about in these discussions. While confirming that wives tended to FILE for divorce 65% of the time, she also found that:

    About 80% of U.S. divorces today result from the unilateral decision of one spouse, rather than the joint decision of both (Gallagher, 1996), with the spouse who files for divorce first often having an advantage.

    If the 65/35 (female/male) ratio holds for one-sided divorces, then this suggests that women initiate divorce unilaterally 52% of the time, men 28% of the time, and both parties together bilaterally 20% of the time. I hate the term game-changer, but this certainly changes the nature of the discussion IMO.

    This is definitely not a clear-cut issue, but if the statistic is true, then the standard narrative (women = villains, men = victims) just doesn’t hold water. The phenomenon of the “hapless beta” husband who’s divorced out of the blue for no good reason seems even rarer now than before. I had speculated in another discussion that it affected only 5% of men, but given this new information it’s probably even less than that.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    It is NO man’s job or obligation to commit to such a woman no matter how she “arrived” at said multipenis, or slut phase, or “embracing her sexuality” or other total fucking asshole statements made by total fucking assholes. Men are not patcher uppers, psychologists, social workers or slut saviors.

    Society is at a crossroads and there is no way promiscuous women on average are going to come out on top as long as men have agency and remain proud and unashamed to reject sluts, overtly or otherwise.

    Are we done with this crap yet?

    I know I don’t follow as closely as most here, but do we have a definition of what constitutes a slut? And why are people so angry at them? If you don’t want to be with a girl you think is promiscuous, then… don’t.

  • Ramble

    This is definitely not a clear-cut issue, but if the statistic is true, then the standard narrative (women = villains, men = victims) just doesn’t hold water.

    Mega, the standard narrative NEVER had the women as the villains and the men as the victims. That is the *new* narrative that was introduced by the evil MRAs after they (re) introduced readers to the fact that women were more likely to initiate divorce.

    AFAIK, the MSM still does not cast husbands as being the victims, and they are not likely to.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    I have often said that shame is a very important tool in forming and maintaining civilization.

    Shame is effective before the act is committed. In that sense, it works like discretion. The person perceives a certain behavior as wrong and so avoids the act.
    Shaming someone after the fact does more harm than good, it seems to me. At least to the person whose behavior we’re judging.

    Also, we need to be careful what it is we’re defining as shameful. I have two young boys. Neither are at an age yet where I have to worry about these things. But when they get to that age, I want to make it clear what is acceptable and what is not.

    Sleeping with people casually seems like a bad move, but the desire to sleep with people is normal. I kind of get the impression that there are men here who want to shame women not only for the act of hooking up casually, but also for the desire to have sex with those guys in the first place. Wanting to screw people is healthy and normal.

  • HanSolo

    @Megaman

    In the 65/35 split there is a surplus of female filing of 30% of all divorce filings–the male 35 “balances” the female 35, leaving a female surplus of 30.

    Assuming the 65/35 ratio of who files applies to both joint and unilateral decisions then we have a surplus of female unilateral filers over male unilateral filers of 52-28=24%.

    Another way of looking at it would be to assume that for the joint decision that it’s a 50/50 split of who files. This would mean 10% of all filers were joint-decision women and 10% were joint-dec. men. Subtract those off of 65 and 35 and you are left with 55 and 25 for unilateral female and male filers, respectively, and the surplus of filers is back to the 30% of all filers is women.

    Either way, 30% or 24%, but it doesn’t seem like a big change. Can you explain a bit further why it does seem so to you?

    Can you link your comment or remind me where the 5% came from? Thanks.

  • Ramble

    I know I don’t follow as closely as most here, but do we have a definition of what constitutes a slut? And why are people so angry at them? If you don’t want to be with a girl you think is promiscuous, then… don’t.

    Scot, perhaps I can save Susan from a length back-and-forth with this:

    Basically, the “anger” comes from
    – What affects will “sluts” have on the rest of the SMP
    – What affects did “sluts” have on the previous SMP
    – What changed in our Social Norms to enable promiscuity to begin with (i.e. what have we lost)
    – do girls feel more pressured now, than ever before, to slut it up to make sure that they are not ostracized by the more popular and/or slutty girls. And, if there were fewer sluts, would more modest girls have an easier go of things
    – how much has promiscuity affected things like the divorce rate and the possible resulting “divorce rape” (she gets the kids, the house, “mommy support”, etc.)

    The list goes on and on.

    One simple of way of looking at it is like this: would you want your daughter to grow up in a town (and society) where they were surrounded by, in general, promiscuous girls or more modest girls?

    The issue is more complicated than that, but that is the basic gist of it. And, no, I don’t believe that a hard definition of slut has been agreed upon, nor will it.

  • Abbot

    “I kind of get the impression that there are men here who want to shame women not only for the act of hooking up casually, but also for the desire to have sex with those guys in the first place.”

    You see, its never been defined anywhere, at least clearly, the method of this so-called shaming. That is, aside from a tiny minority of obnoxious men who blare out comments on the street to women, the vast majority of men do nothing like that. Men do NOT want to shame women. Men want to quietly skirt around certain women when it comes to something more than sex. If they can. When men express such intentions on this or other site, the knee jerkers arrive on the scene to call them all manner of names include shamers, insecure, sheeple, cavemen and hypocritical – all character attacks that no man is making against women. These are not mainstream discussions by any means. For the most part, women are not even aware. If women are not aware, how is it possible for them to even interpret it as shaming? Clearly, they are happily screwing away with no shame so its not as if any such opinions are reaching them and if they did do you think they would give a shit?

    “If you don’t want to be with a girl you think is promiscuous, then… don’t.”

    Of course and if men could pull it off the trend will escalate. No man proactively seeks out a promiscuous woman to dedicate his life to but many many men will seek out the opposite. Its not the intention of men that irks so many women – its when they discuss these intentions in open forums. Perhaps the fear is that such information will become more widespread and thus re-normalize the dating market and set women back in addition to really taking a dig at their so-called “equality” campaigns.

  • Abbot
  • J
  • Iggles

    @ Scot Lasley:

    I know I don’t follow as closely as most here, but do we have a definition of what constitutes a slut? And why are people so angry at them? If you don’t want to be with a girl you think is promiscuous, then… don’t.

    :lol:

    Your guess is as good as mine! I don’t understand why anyone would obsess about people they presumably can’t stand and/or don’t want to be with (i.e., “slut”-haters continually ranting about sluts).

  • Abbot

    ” Even liberal-minded, pro-choice women will often live in fear of being labeled a slut. I cannot tell you how many women I’ve known who’ve gone through periods of anxiety that they might be reaching that magical, but always elusive, number of sex partners before they officially become sluts.”
    — Amanda Marcotte

    Question is, who are these women looking to for that opinion? And why exactly would they have such anxiety over it? Well, assuming its men, that tells you that even secular women are wise and they know quite well how nearly all of them think. Lets stop fooling ourselves here. If women want to reduce the anxiety they will by their own actions, but its not because men are going to change..

  • HanSolo

    I don’t rant about them and don’t even particularly hate them but I think 2 reasons are that 1) they don’t want the cultural norm to turn a greater and greater % of women into sluts and thus reduce the supply of non-sluts and also don’t want their daughters to get swept up into that and 2) they don’t want to be tricked into marrying a deceptive slut who says N=3 instead of 23, or they don’t want that for their sons.

    Those seem like rational things to worry about.

  • J

    Technically, virginity is maintained. Talk about loopholes. … butt seriously ?

    LMAO–pun intended.

  • HanSolo

    @Iggles and Scot Lasley

    Another reason is that it has harmed associative mating (love it or hate it) and so the highly-sought-after alphas and players and men above a woman’s SMV/MMV are able to get sex and thus don’t need to get married.

    Previously (and somewhat simplistically but it delivers the point), the 10 men would marry the 10′s so the 9 women (maybe only half of them were hypergamous and really hoping for a 10) would stop hoping to marry the 10 men and they would marry the 9 men. The 8′s would marry the 8′s and so on.

    Now, the hypergamous women (whatever percentage they are but not insignificant) are holding out for the higher-status/attractiveness guys and so the male 5′s are having a harder time than they did 50 years ago.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    Can you explain a bit further why it does seem so to you?

    Thanks for your interest, I appreciate it.

    I’m reluctant to call a divorce objectively “good”, but relatively speaking, situations where both parties mutually agree that the marriage is over are the least bad IMO. Looking at the 20% (who *decide* jointly) from that perspective, it’s irrelevant who literally files the paperwork, as I believe the law does not allow both parties to jointly *file* for divorce. One person must file (the petitioner), and the other person must respond, even when the divorce is totally uncontested and everybody already agrees on the terms.

    Based on that, it seems reasonable to conclude that, while women do unilaterally file for divorce most of the time (52%), men either unilaterally file themselves OR are in agreement that the marriage is over and should be dissolved the rest of the time (48%). The presence of children and the amount of money involved undoubtedly play a role in whether a divorce is mutual and straightforward vs. acrimonious and vindictive. What do you think?

    As for my 5% estimate, it was based on some relevant facts and a few assumptions. As most beliefs should be, it’s subject to change:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/19/politics-and-feminism/who-is-responsible-for-the-single-motherhood-epidemic/comment-page-14/#comments
    #2055

  • Abbot

    “Those seem like rational things to worry about.”

    If nobody speaks about this and offers differing points of view, where will it end? It often gets joked about on this site, but to women and their feminist friends, this is NO joke. Any dissent gets fast and fuming responses. Just look at how Amanda Marcotte and Jaclyn Friedman attacked Susan a few years ago. Friedman even got on a podium in a public place in Boston and bellowed out nasty references to her. THIS IS AN AGGRESSIVE SERIOUS TOPIC FOR THOSE ASSHOLES.

    Question is, why?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Iggles

    I don’t understand why anyone would obsess about people they presumably can’t stand and/or don’t want to be with.

    Heh, the Freudian in me suspects a love/hate relationship with the exotic, mysterious, young, possibly good-looking promiscuous female… :mrgreen:

    The better question, and far less easy to answer, is: why do they express their anger about it HERE?

  • Abbot

    If there is anger, its solely directed toward the propagandists who attempt to frame the current situation as normal, healthy and desirable. They will spew this crap endlessly with no evidence, no studies and no popular consensus. Its purely agenda driven

  • JP
  • HanSolo

    @Megaman

    I agree that for the 20% where it’s mutual who filed is not important.

    I think the crux of the matter is that people are assuming that the filer will tend to be the one who has decided to move on (yeah, that seems reasonable up to there) for sinister or EPL motives (there is where it’s dubious). I know both men and women who are the less-at-fault partner. I know a guy who was quite the alpha (tall, handsome, charismatic) and married a total hotty who later went on to cheat time after time but he was obsessed and couldn’t give her up until about the 20th time and so he filed. I also know a girl who was being hit. So, both genders do shit and cheat and are culprits and victims and end marriages. Are the 65% women filing to go EPL or because the husband’s really abusive? Are the 35% of men filing to go seek a younger woman or because she cheated?

    So the filer might be the more guilty party or the more innocent party. Do you have a way to get at this? I’m not aware of any really good data on this.

    As to the 52/48% I can play devil’s advocate (with angelic intentions ;) ) and say that 72% of women file unilaterally or in agreement and men 28% unilaterally. Can you explain why you favor the version you presented? Do you have some other study that shows reason for divorce?

    Thanks for the link to your comment. Basic argument: 20% of all men have ever been divorced. 13% of these divorces for filed by women. Then you estimate 8% were legitimate divorces (abuse, cheating, etc.), leaving 5% of all men being EPL’d, etc.

    A few points:

    1) I think that if you limit the age to under 65 that the % of men ever divorced would rise somewhat since the older generation didn’t/don’t divorce as much but I could be wrong. If it were 30% then that would be 20% instead of 13% and using your 8/13 ratio it would mean 12% were legitimate, leaving 8% instead of 5%. I don’t think we should use all men because it’s more a phenomenon of the last 20 years and people over 65 grew up in a different culture.

    2) Some of the 7% (men) can be filing “legitimate” divorce too so that could up the “screwed-over-by divorce” rate of all men. If this were 2% and we added it to the 8% above then that would give 10% of all men under 65, making it a more significant but not epidemic problem.

    Of course, this is all speculation. You estimate <5%. Following a similar method with slightly different assumptions and limiting it to under 65 I get ~10% of all men under 65. It might only be 2% for all I know.

    Thoughts?

    I'm curious, what % of men do the MRA's say it is?

  • Sai

    @Anacaona
    “20 different types of mango, 6 different types of avocado, 10 types of oranges…”
    I’M COMING TO YOUR COUNTRY~

    @HanSolo
    “I guess this is a case of choose wisely and be the best lover you can.”
    I agree.
    (but seriously, once a year… I’m not even a guy and I hate that)

    @Abbot
    “Just look at how Amanda Marcotte and Jaclyn Friedman attacked Susan a few years ago. Friedman even got on a podium in a public place in Boston and bellowed out nasty references to her. THIS IS AN AGGRESSIVE SERIOUS TOPIC FOR THOSE ASSHOLES.”
    !
    Really?
    They have to be profiting big-time from encouraging women to behave this way. More messed-up relationships —> crazy divorces —> more wealth lost by men to women. There’s got to be more to it than that…

  • Ion

    @ Abbot re 227

    “Girl raised in the same household where brothers do whatever they want has internalized that dad is a hypocrite, and because he was, is now justified in experiencing what the world is “really like” and yes, this can occur via multipenis as Abbott would say, or learning to lie early on to avoid dads hypocritical rules.” was about the girls line of reasoning. So your predictable rant about sluts and alpha cock had nothing to do with what I was saying. Still, I apologize if you got confused.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    So the filer might be the more guilty party or the more innocent party. Do you have a way to get at this? I’m not aware of any really good data on this.

    No, I’m an amateur with little knowledge of the ins-and-outs of divorce dynamics (thankfully). And the data is hard to come by and synthesize, as Susan pointed out. Even trying to identify the truly guilty party is problematic, as the really bad breakups involve a lot of “he said, she said” accusations. There really is no independent 3rd party observing all this stuff. Neither divorce lawyers or even the kids impartial in these situations.

    Can you explain why you favor the version you presented? Do you have some other study that shows reason for divorce?

    Again, no, I was merely looking at it from the standpoint of — o.k. how often do men instigate divorce by themselves, or go along with it without objecting? Yep, 48% of the time, which suggests that the rate of “totally frivolous blindside” (TFB) type divorces by women is probably overstated IMO. And however often it does happen, “beta” type guys probably aren’t the only ones experiencing it.

    But it’s certainly appropriate to look at it the other way — o.k. how often do women instigate divorce by themselves, or go along with it without objecting? Yep, 72% of the time. Or rather, 72% of 20% (# of women ever divorced) = 14.4% of the adult female population. The equivalent for men is 9.6% (48% of 20%). Not tremendously large numbers.

    I agree, this is all just speculation, as there’s no comprehensive research available on the divorce phenomenon. Too bad, it’d answer a lot of questions. The incomplete nature of the data is one very good reason not to take an intractable stance either way.

    Thoughts?

    No doubt the G.I. Generation (born 1901–1924) and the Silent Generation (born 1925–1942) have astronomically low divorce rates, due mainly to their cultural upbringing and circumstances living through the Great Depression and WWII.

    But the divorce rate trend has been going down for the entire population since 1980, especially for married college graduates. However, the ones who are currently going through a “gray” divorce spike are the Baby Boomers, specifically between the ages of 55 to 65. Ironically, the divorce rates are lower for married couples both younger *and* older than they are:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/sc-fam-0920-gray-divorce-20110920,0,433404.story

    I’m curious, what % of men do the MRA’s say it is?

    No idea. I’d never join any club (especially that kind) that would voluntarily accept me as a member. :wink:

  • Ion

    Scot

    “Shame is effective before the act is committed. In that sense, it works like discretion. The person perceives a certain behavior as wrong and so avoids the act.”

    I agree 100%, and here poses the problem. From my understanding of what some men around here have said, women don’t want average men in their youth. So it stands to reason that the men girls DO want must start rejecting sluts and rewarding modesty, or we won’t see a change. As it stands, the “shaming” is literally coming from the people whose opinion matters the least. When their opinion does start to matter (when a girl is older and needs beta men to have kids as its been claimed), the damage is already done.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So it stands to reason that the men girls DO want must start rejecting sluts and rewarding modesty, or we won’t see a change.

      They have no incentives to do so, and incentives drive behavior.

  • Ion

    @ Iggles:

    ” I don’t understand why anyone would obsess about people they presumably can’t stand and/or don’t want to be with ”

    Good question. Wish I knew the answer to it!

    Maybe because average men want the women who they believe alpha men might want, but don’t want her to have memories of being with men whom they feel inferior to?

  • HanSolo

    @Megaman

    I think that as with many alarming things the alarmists are made up of a minority of people that have experienced a similar thing (or are fearful of it) and make it seem like a bigger deal than it is. That doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal, maybe not quite as bad as it sounds.

    This applies to many things in the manosphere. I have learned several things from them and though I don’t think things are as dire as presented my eyes have been opened to various things. In a dialectical fashion they are serving a useful purpose in providing the other side of the story, contrasting the PC and feminist crowd (which is much larger and more influential).

    Some of these are:

    1) Exaggerated rape statistics (yes, I’m against rape and also against false accusations and also against being implied to likely be a rapist for being a man)
    2) Divorce court bias against men (women being much more likely to get custody and take half the wealth when he was the primary earner and she cheated, somewhat excessive child support payments that she doesn’t have to show were used for the child; though I am not against her getting some money that can be used for her because she is doing the child care)
    3) Enforcing child support on duped dads that DNA tests later prove were not the father
    4) Making raped male victims pay child support

    There are more but that’s enough for now. So, I learn from both manosphere and attraction/PUA writers but you really have to compare with the data and look at things with the right perspective to not get caught up in bitterness or trying have a frame of winning women’s approval in the PUA case (they say be outcome independent so you can get the outcome of getting women, lol).

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS
    I hear you, though I’ve often wondered how often divorced fathers actually seek custody of their children (legal, physical, sole, joint). What is their success rate when they actually fight for their rights and not let the ex-wife win by default? I’m looking for a number here, but haven’t ever heard one mentioned.

    I suppose I’ve learned far more from my own personal experiences, those of my friends and family, and the research data, than I have from anonymous online anecdotes. I don’t have much in common with the angry guys OR the promiscuous guys…

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    JP…the PsychToday article (about “enforcers/punishers”) was interesting, but a little strange, I thought. The author starts out talking about a teacher who actually tried to maintain a little order in his classroom, and was willing to take some career risks (“made things harder for himself”) to accomplish this goal…and then asserts that someone like this must have not only “a deep sense of right and wrong,” but also “occasional authoritarian tendencies.”

    Actually, any serious professional or leader is sometimes going to have to “make things harder for himself.” Maybe this teacher actually cared about kids learning something, rather than just going through the motions on our conveyor-belt public school system. What on earth does this have to do with authoritarianism?

    I’m currently reading the memoir by Sheila Bair, who was head of FDIC during the darkest days of the financial crisis. She definitely made things harder for herself by not caving in to the demands of Timothy Geithner, Vikram Pandit, and such….I don’t detect her motivation as having been motivated by authoritarianism or a desire to punish, rather by the desire to make things better for Americans as a group.

    Late in WWII, a group of German officers tried to kill Hitler…most, though not all of them, were motivated by a sense of justice. It seems unlikely that they were more “authoritarian” than those officers who *didn’t* join the conspiracy.

    “Enforcers tend to be submissive to people above them and controlling of those below.” This directly contradicts the assertion that the teacher mentioned at the beginning is an enforcer, given that he took on the principal rather than submitting to the system in place.

    Sorry for the rant.

  • HanSolo

    Not sure about the custody issue. As to learning, the main thing I’ve learned from the manosphere and their discussions here is that I need to be damn careful about who I marry. But I still want to marry and have kids.

  • HanSolo

    @Megaman

    Before I was too naive and just assumed that the divorce laws were fairer and that it was mostly just badasses abusing women and cheating (which happens) while the women were mostly angels. So, being enlightened about women’s behavior both from personal and friends’ experiences over the last 5 years and also from reading about it (without taking it to an extreme and thinking all or most women suck), my eyes have been opened.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    I’ve learned from the manosphere and their discussions here is that I need to be damn careful about who I marry.

    That’s sound advice for women, too.

    I’d think the case of Dr. Richard O. Phillips would encourage all men to be damn careful who they have sexual relations with, let alone marry.

  • HanSolo

    @MM

    Just read about Phillips and the woman saving his sperm to get pregnant later. Yikes.

    Good advice for women too but I didn’t mention that because most women already think men are dogs and are suspicious! They just need to find the loyal, loving dog and less of the exclusively-horndog.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS
    To be fair, that was an exceptionally rare case, and Phillips was a doctor with high earning potential. Nevertheless, it’s legal precedent now…

    Given that no-fault divorce can be exercised by either party for any reason, wouldn’t you call that chaotically “fair”? Though I take your point WRT laws governing the disposition of income, property and awarding child custody. It’s interesting, I heard a lawyer on the radio give free advice on how men who’ve lost their jobs or whose income has fallen can quite easily get their alimony/child support payments reduced or eliminated. I wonder how many divorced guys are aware of that?

    Anyone who fears divorce should do everything he or she can to minimize the risk, even if that means never marrying. But my suspicion is that for the large majority of guys who marry and never divorce, it’s just not at the top of their list of things to worry about.

    And not germane to HUS or Susan’s mission for that matter.

  • JQ

    @ Susan in re 165:

    You’re welcome.

    I agree that it would be interesting to ask whether or not premarital doubts is predictive of the trajectory of marital satisfaction. It appears from the documentation of the statistical algorithm used in the 2010 study that it is capable of considering premarital doubts as a risk factor which influences to which marital satisfaction trajectory the couple belongs.

    There are, though, perhaps more damning factors at play with these studies. Assuming it is the same data set, then the demographics of the sample are described in the 2010 study as

    For the combined sample, at the initial data collection, husbands averaged 27.0 years of age (standard deviation [SD] = 3.8) and 15.6 years of education (SD = 2.2), with a median annual income between $21,000 and $30,000. Sixty-nine percent were Caucasian, 14% were Latino-Chicano, 11% were Asian American–Pacific Islanders, and 4% were African American. Wives averaged 25.5 years of age (SD = 3.4) and 16.0 years of education (SD = 1.9), with a median annual income between $11,000 and $20,000. Sixty-five percent were Caucasian, 15% were Latina-Chicana, 13% were Asian American–Pacific Islanders, and 5% were African American.

    When thinking about the income levels, please bear in mind that the first sample was taken in 1991 and the second in 1994. These are couples from Los Angeles, CA. Is this sample actually reflective of LA demographics–even in early 90′s? The authors admit their sample is not nationally representative.

    Another is that all the couples were included even when their data was missing. Considering once someone drops out of a longitudinal sample they tend to stay out, it is hard to believe that data is missing at random, the usual requirement for handling missing data.

    Accounting for couples who divorced over the course of the study, retention was relatively high. Retention among intact couples was 94% at Time 2 (n = 217), 95% at Time 3 (n = 217), 83% at Time 4 (n = 185), 83% at Time 5 (n = 181), 81% at Time 6 (n = 180), 77% at Time 7 (n = 163), and 81% at Time 8 (n = 165). One of the advantages of semiparametric growth mixed modeling is that it accommodates missing data; hence, the present analyses included all subjects.

    Further, the authors don’t consider how missing data is handled–likely because they don’t know how the software they used handles same. The article which introduced the SAS procedure used in the study (a copy is available for free at http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/bjones/pdf/ref1.pdf) is conspicuously silent on the topic. So is the later article which introduces an updated version. As the software is provided compiled it is inordinately difficult to find out via code inspection.

    It would not surprise me to find out the lead author is trying to model everything of which he can think obtain the greatest number of published articles while in school. For instance, I would not be surprised in the least if next year an article comes out which includes premarital doubts as a risk factor. Doing so would count as an “extension” of previous work and the paper would likely cite both of those you have posted here. He has every incentive to do so.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JQ

      I wish I could afford to have you on retainer :)

      Obviously, it is appropriate to take any individual study with a grain of salt, and perhaps to form a conclusion only after several studies have pointed to the same finding.

  • HanSolo

    @MM

    It’s not central to HUS but since part of the mission is to help people that want to navigate single life and get into good marriages I would argue it’s of some relevance. Women need to realize that more men will be becoming aware of these things and add that to their list of “girl game” or the 25-pt list to tranquilize the wary male. lol

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @HS

    I would argue it’s of some relevance.

    Indirectly, tangentially, yes, I’d agree. How I see Susan’s mission is more like early-bird preventative advice: “Conduct yourself in a manner conducive to long-term mating, choose a partner carefully and wisely, and after that relationship happiness is your own responsiblity.”

    As for men being wary of joining the 5% (or less) club, I’m not so sure there’s a tidal wave of that kind of sentiment IRL. There’s certainly no marriage strike going on. Online however, there’s little or no proportionality WRT considering the data and evidence of what’s really going on, as Susan’s pointed out numerous times. I think you mentioned that, too.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I tasted American bread in France – yuck, it’s sweet!

    Odd the only sweet bread I had seen here is the Hawaiian one. It was a store bagged one or just a French bakery calling it american?

    I’M COMING TO YOUR COUNTRY~

    Stay away from the local men and you will have a great time. :D
    Our economy depends on tourism so tourists are really safe there. Locals not so much.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Marellus
    I would say this sort of behavior has become the norm these days; I don’t think the women who engage in it believe they are doing anything wrong. I remember having a conversation with a woman many years ago when I was still poor (literally living on $5 a day amortized over the month); she told me I was good looking enough to have a woman support me while I built my business and I could “just move on when I find something better”; she could not understand when I explained that I felt such an action would be morally wrong. As for the morality of women, yes I would say that has a lot to do with social decline, but how much of the decline in female morals has to do with men not providing clear consequences for bad behavior. It is like the women who smile and wink at me in public when their husband/boyfriend is standing right there; the men notice, but do nothing; not even a cross word.

    @ Susan
    Part of the problem is “Mark’s” mother told him the relationship was fine; the fact that he went to his mother with doubts and shared the details of the conversation with my employee indicates he is not as oblivious as his actions suggest, but he is most certainly not listening to his gut. Both of “Ann’s” children call “Mark” daddy, so I am sure his eventual ouster will have a deep emotional effect on both of them. However, I would not take the eugenicist line that because your father is a “meth addicted loser” you too will follow the same direction. I know many men who are from such abhorrent backgrounds that it would be inappropriate to bring it up in polite company, yet they choose to live radically different lives from their parents; obviously, they represent a minority of “sons of losers”, but it is possible, consider JD Rockefeller; his father was swindler and bigamist. Likewise, I know many successful men whose sons (although interestingly, not daughters) are complete failures. Many of them have told me that the hardest part of making the change was not relearning morals and values, but the conflict their new value system created between themselves and their family. Most had to break ties completely, while one still visits his family from time to time to see how far he has come, he still will not allow his (now adult) children to meet his mother and siblings. Lastly, you mentioned an apartment, my employee makes approximately $150,000.00 a year, “Ann” and “Mark” are his next door neighbors, so unless my employee is very thrifty, I think “Mark” is providing quite a comfortable life, not just “an apartment in the hood”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herr Kaiser

      I was too hasty to assume that the child would turn out like his addict dad. Given that the genes play a role – about 50% by most estimates – and upbringing the other half, it could obviously go either way.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    PJ: “Not so fast. Your daughter might feel oppressed and stifled and therefore rebel – becoming a baby mama by 17, while your son may either seize the oppurtunities you have essentially given him a wink and a nod for and become the local bad-boy-panty-slayer and multiple babies’ daddy OR flow in the opposite direction and become a sheepish omega male. How about just one honest, logical and ethical standard for everyone?”

    Fuck you. You are not a parent, and your mind tricks don’t work. Yep, I’m going to be a horrible sexist parent, protect my daughter by knowing her whereabouts by being home with her after school, and my kids will do just fine, even better than myself… who managed to propagate his DNA at least three times.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      You are not a parent, and your mind tricks don’t work. Yep, I’m going to be a horrible sexist parent, protect my daughter by knowing her whereabouts by being home with her after school, and my kids will do just fine

      Bravo, I’ll second this. PJ has no right whatsoever to give anyone advice related to marriage or parenting.

  • J

    @SW

    I might toss and turn for hours, then give up and get up at 3 am, while Mr. HUS would happily snore the night away.

    LOL. Does that drive you nuts?

    At those times, I would often give more and harder “friendly, anti-snoring shoves” than was necessary.

    Me too.

    Helen Fisher says we’ve caught up, based on her research. I think most other estimates say around 25% of men cheat, and 18% of women (approx.). Of course, it’s very difficult to get at real data on this question.

    18% sounds reasonable to me. I’ve seen estimates of up to 50% for men which seems unreasonable

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      LOL. Does that drive you nuts?

      Yes. By the way, does anyone know when men snore more than women do?

  • J

    @Ion

    Girl raised in the same household where brothers do whatever they want has internalized that dad is a hypocrite…

    Yes, or that dad is a liar when the dire consequences that he promised would materialize don’t materialize. I’ve also seen kids so sheltered and unaware that they are easy prey for sharper kids once way from the parents.

  • Plain Jane

    “Maybe because average men want the women who they believe alpha men might want, but don’t want her to have memories of being with men whom they feel inferior to?”

    Yahtzee!

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Darsh

    Der Hölle Rache can sound so much better than that recording. :(

    Always a favourite of mine.

    @J

    Thanks for the beer ;-) I got it via cracked.com 8-)

    @Ana.

    20-different kinds of Mango? … they should that country’s name to the Da-Mango-can Republic.

    @Sai.

    Re : Those NSFW pictures of yours.

    You’re a Viagra-saleswoman, aren’t you ?

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser.

    How much creedence do you give charting/technical analysis in your line of work ?

    I see that CNBC has their own designated chartists, which means that this discipline might just go the way of Gaussian Copulas.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    20-different kinds of Mango? … they should that country’s name to the Da-Mango-can Republic.

    We are actually very Mangueros we used to joke that the forbidden fruit in Eden was a Mango. Also we are missing some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangifera

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Ana.

    You’re a fruitful conversationalist.

    Saw this on the net btw. :-D

    Now I’m off again.

  • VD

    A handful of times, when I have really pressed the point, I have had people say to me in effect “So what if one guy in Pittsburg gets laid off of ten people in rural China rise up from poverty. That’s a net plus for the world.” When I point out that the dude in Pittsburg is their fellow citizen whereas the people in China are not, they look at me like I just said the earth is flat. Who thinks in terms of countries and citizenship anymore? They feel absolutely no bonds of obligation or loyalty to their fellow countrymen qua countrymen.

    I’ve seen similar reactions in my posts on free trade at VP. The idea that nearly 50 percent of the US population would have to emigrate by the time they reached 35 if the domestic trade regime were applied internationally didn’t faze them at all. They literally cannot grasp why it might be a bad idea to trade civilized people with barbarians, as if mere geographical change will somehow magically civilize the semi-savage.

    I cannot wait to see how the UMC panics once they belatedly realize the African and Arabic immigrants are politically powerful enough to force legal recognition of polygamy. It’s already been de facto recognized in the UK and France. And, to be fair, who can blame the immigrants for being unimpressed with the Marriage 2.0 structure or progressive fairytale ideals.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @VD

    The idea that nearly 50 percent of the US population would have to emigrate by the time they reached 35 if the domestic trade regime were applied internationally didn’t faze them at all.

    Can you explain this a bit more please ? I know that Britain’s Industrial Revolution was built on the export of textiles (didn’t NM Rothschild make his first fortune in this ?), and that *initially* they had to erect tariff barriers to grow their industry, otherwise this industry would have been destroyed by cheaper imports from India … and that was in the 18′th-19′th century.

  • Emily

    I’m also going to add that the betas who go for reformed sluts are also responsible. As Susan has shown, there are plenty of non-sluts to go around. If the men *actually* want good girls then they should prove it.

  • pvw

    Someone @Susan:
    “So it stands to reason that the men girls DO want must start rejecting sluts and rewarding modesty, or we won’t see a change.”

    Susan @ Somebody: They have no incentives to do so, and incentives drive behavior.

    @ Emily, I’m also going to add that the betas who go for reformed sluts are also responsible. As Susan has shown, there are plenty of non-sluts to go around. If the men *actually* want good girls then they should prove it.

    Me: That is why I am somewhat skeptical about those who say that sluts and reformed sluts should be rejected, while what is being reported is that men with reformed sluts seem to work their way through it. They might say they were troubled when they found out, but they seem able to handle it in the end. The theme I’m reading now is: “yes, she is/was a slut, but she was great in bed, and now, she is a great girlfriend, the best I have ever had. So I stayed with her, married her, etc.”

    Sure, there are others who say they felt duped and the marriage suffered as a result, and there is one story from some time ago about someone who called off the wedding, but the other type of story makes me skeptical. For every one story saying a man would mind or should mind, I wonder how many stories are of the other sort, “I dealt with it.”

  • Darsh

    @Marellus:

    Always a favourite of mine.

    The song is – and that performance – sounds lovely, but I’ve never really liked Italian for some reason. It sounds so… “ugly”.

    @VD:
    But even if we don’t consider migration, it seems evident that as the rest of the world catches up to the West in regards to development, education and technology, and is willing to work for less than people here, then we will have to lower our salaries/standard of living.

  • Ion

    pvw: “That is why I am somewhat skeptical about those who say that sluts and reformed sluts should be rejected, while what is being reported is that men with reformed sluts seem to work their way through it. They might say they were troubled when they found out, but they seem able to handle it in the end. The theme I’m reading now is: “yes, she is/was a slut, but she was great in bed, and now, she is a great girlfriend, the best I have ever had. So I stayed with her, married her, etc.”

    One of my friends (we’re no longer friends due to personality differences) got married this year, she had some 31 partners (at least she did in 2009 when we last talked about it, she probably racked up partners here and there), and when she told her boyfriend about it, she said he pulled over, stopped the car and said “what! how could you?” and then got over it. They know tell the story as a joke and think its hilarious. That’s one example. She did brag about being great in bed (with this guy she waited til 3rd date at least, I know of several married men and one night stands on her list).

  • Ion

    @ J

    “Yes, or that dad is a liar when the dire consequences that he promised would materialize don’t materialize. I’ve also seen kids so sheltered and unaware that they are easy prey for sharper kids once way from the parents.”

    Players have a tendency to spot girls like this and know exactly what to say, sadly.

  • pvw

    @ Ion, exactly!

    So this guy was able to overcome his natural revulsion (biological imperative, some would argue) because he had another biological imperative, great sex! And to be able to tell this story to their friends as a joke says a lot. Of course, with society as it is, as others have mentioned, he would have been called out by some if he had a problem with it. Yet, if he knew and went along with it, some would say he could use married game to handle her. It depends upon how risk averse one has to be: verifiable and clear short term benefits (I’m with her now, it is great, we are married) as compared to the possibility of heartache down the line, a possibility which might not be a probability (a hypergamous slut poses a great threat).

    As I said, I’m skeptical….

  • Ion

    “Saw this on the net btw.

    Now I’m off again.”

    LOL! Marellus, that pic is awesome.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I was too hasty to assume that the child would turn out like his addict dad. Given that the genes play a role – about 50% by most estimates – and upbringing the other half, it could obviously go either way.”

    It can always go either way because people make choices.

  • Abbot

    ““I dealt with it.”

    If a man does not consider her a past in any context then she is very lucky and he is good to go. But if the prolificness has to be “dealt with” it speaks loud and clear to innate unnaturalness. There is much in life that has to be “dealt with” here and there but to assign that to a life-long endeavor that is already layered with emotional challenges and complexities is Just. Plain. Stupid. It is for this reason that men extremely rarely knowingly marry prostitutes and nobody, not even feminists, fault men for such repulsion. Nobody wants to deal with it.

    Whenever you read such pandering propaganda –

    “She is human and sexual so of course she is going to fuck” or other pleadings that claim if you disagree then you are slut shaming. But people who make these statement ALWAYS conveniently leave off the ending – “so stop thinking about it and commit to her.” Its NOT at all about slut shaming. It is about the future prospects of promiscuous women in the context of how men think.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I cannot wait to see how the UMC panics once they belatedly realize the African and Arabic immigrants are politically powerful enough to force legal recognition of polygamy. It’s already been de facto recognized in the UK and France. And, to be fair, who can blame the immigrants for being unimpressed with the Marriage 2.0 structure or progressive fairytale ideals.

    You forgot the Hamsterization “Is their cultural right” “I cannot impose my white privileged on them and so on…” is like the ladies only gym or the guy that was asked to move because he was close to two kids in the plane. I totally think in the future we will have a lot of gender segregation policies and this will look like a patriarchy with harems and all that, but the one here would be for the “right” reasons, YMMV.

    Sure, there are others who say they felt duped and the marriage suffered as a result, and there is one story from some time ago about someone who called off the wedding, but the other type of story makes me skeptical. For every one story saying a man would mind or should mind, I wonder how many stories are of the other sort, “I dealt with it.”

    Add me to the how true are the slut consequences that they keep mentioning? If the slut is hot enough and brings in the sack (Little risks of her denying sex just because) most men will force themselves to get over it one way or another. See how Jesus M was a lot less angry about it after he went and racked up some notch after finding out about his fiance, Deti had to stay in the marriage for the kids, recently someone mentioned they have a similar situation as Tom and they were happy with their choice so the message is that if you are hot enough for him he will use all his men power to get over it so why bother? Just do whatever you want and lie, once trapped on your lady clutches chances are he will stay.
    I also have field observations of men that had terrible endings with this women (the whole divorce me and took the kids with her) and when they go back and try dating they go for the exact same type…do they expect things would be different? My guess is all they look at is the shallow parts (hot good in bed) and pray for this one to be different. not a lot of logic for the “logical” gender, YMMV.

    Yes. By the way, does anyone know when men snore more than women do?

    http://menshealth.about.com/cs/lifestyle/a/snoring.htm

  • Iggles

    Emily, Ion & pvw,

    I’ve noticed similar patterns in my social circle. For all the slut shaming that happens on here, in real life high N women are finding boyfriends and husbands a lot faster than their low N “good girl” counterparts!

    Since there are a number of chaste women in the 80% who are single/unmarried, it leads me to believe slut shaming is NOT about arguing that men prefer chaste women. It’s about men being mad that the girls who chase alphas have a high N before they have a shot with them (i.e., with “reformed sluts” alphas got first dibs)!!!

    When push comes to shove, the type of men who decry “sluts” will take both sex & relationships with a “reformed slut” over a chaste good girl.

    Instead of a girl being told to be chaste for betas, she should develop dating experience with both alphas and betas. I’m not saying she should slut it up and sleep with them (let me be clear – you can date without having sex!), but there is a correlation between chaste girls and lack of dating experience. The girls who have dated, and thus perfected IOIs, are the ones getting guys!

    For a woman who wants to get married lack of dating experience/IOIs is a much bigger liability than having a high N!!!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    When push comes to shove, the type of men who decry “sluts” will take both sex & relationships with a “reformed slut” over a chaste good girl.

    I agree with this. The sexual power gives the advantages to sluts that good girl lack. Part of the disconnect is that men will go were they can get sex the easier till they want a wife…how long does that take? By the time it happens the woman might be too old to compete anyway no to mention the men that fall in love with their slut and/or the ones that never want to settle down. And really telling girls to wait for years while the sluts get date and attention and they are just there waiting is as cruel as telling Betas to wait for the sluts to wait it up till they are done with the Alphas. Not fair that people get relegated so others take a shot at the most attractive ones. Hence why assortative mating and early marriage used to work the most attractive ones got out of the market so the rest could focus on their peers and pair up, instead of wasting time on the top. Good old days…

    Instead of a girl being told to be chaste for betas, she should develop dating experience with both alphas and betas. I’m not saying she should slut it up and sleep with them (let me be clear – you can date without having sex!), but there is a correlation between chaste girls and lack of dating experience. The girls who have dated, and thus perfected IOIs, are the ones getting guys!

    I disagree with this. Betas should focus on Betas, rewarding Alphas with any level of attention is as bad as rewarding sluts. The only way to fix the SMP is to have people to mate with their peers. Assortative mating needs a come back, ASAP…I’m still thinking how can be done though. Most dating advice and experts don’t focus on filtering or doing a realistic SMV and we don’t have anyone doing formal introductions and people on circle of friends are very adverse to “making people uncomfortable” by introducing single friends to each other…is a complex issue.

  • Abbot

    “men prefer chaste women”

    define chaste

    “It’s about men being mad that the girls who chase alphas have a high N before they have a shot with them”

    Um, men are not mad. Preferring to completely avoid them means just that. Then how is there even a chance at being “mad?”

    “men who decry “sluts” will take both sex & relationships with a “reformed slut” over a chaste good girl.”

    Because the slut is proactively all up in their face? and what is chaste?

    “Instead of a girl being told to be chaste”

    Aside from the rare good parent, women are being told no such thing. What is chaste?

    “The girls who have dated, and thus perfected IOIs, are the ones getting guys”

    Sounds very proactive on their part. That is not surprising whatsoever…

    “For a woman who wants to get married lack of dating experience/IOIs is a much bigger liability than having a high N!!!”

    Then by all means, make lots of male acquaintances who will verbally advice you on how you should go about landing a husband. Super +1

  • also intj

    Iggles, do you think looks have a lot to do with it? I see your point about the ability to send out IOI, but think appearance is probably linked with a higher N simply due to more male interest.

  • Abbot

    “I see your point about the ability to send out IOI”

    Non lazy wise men are proactive, initiate select IOIs and land the wife material. Grandpa had the liberty of kicking back and pickin them off; you don’t

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Ramble,

    Thanks for the rundown. In many ways, the anger seems far more personal than that, though.

    If I had a daughter, I don’t think the issue would be that clear cut. There are plenty of modest people who do not have healthy views of their own sexuality. And there are women that would be considered promiscuous by some standards who seem genuinely happy and well-adjusted. I would prefer to have a daughter who grows up healthy and leads a life that is fulfilling to her.

    I’d prefer a daughter who chooses to be promiscuous because it’s gratifying to her than a daughter who chooses to be modest because she fears the judgments of others.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    When push comes to shove, the type of men who decry “sluts” will take both sex & relationships with a “reformed slut” over a chaste good girl.

    I’ll be the first to admit (though I’m not particularly proud of it) that I had some anger or resentment toward “sluts” when I was younger. But if I’m totally and completely honest, it’s because I wanted to fuck them too and I didn’t know how to get them into bed.

    And, of course, that’s why they were all “sluts” and not just, ya know, normal girls growing up, exploring relationships and sex with boys they liked.

  • Abbot

    More pre wedding jitters talk from women – the good ol multi penis shaping jitter talk

    “What are the events in my life that led to this person that I am now? It all kind of fits together, it all works. So the show is a combination of me talking to a one night stand combined with flashbacks to those former events.”

    Now, really, do men EVER relate some random screw to the “person they are now?” How is it that sexual events shape women but not men? Has penis reached a new level of power in N America? What else could it be? Then women were more appropriately “shaped” prior to 1970. What the hell is going on? Yep, shaped by multi penis. And this is what they expect men to marry? OMG we are in such fucking trouble.

    http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/10-04-12-13-14-bedpost-confessions-brings-sex-positive-solo-performer-cameryn-moores-islut-revolutioni-to-austin/

    .

  • Sai

    @Marellus
    I’m not a saleswoman, just somebody who believes everyone should have the chance to urinate without excruciating pain. :)

    @Anacaona
    “We are actually very Mangueros we used to joke that the forbidden fruit in Eden was a Mango.”
    I love that joke and I love mangoes. I’d play with a snake if I thought I could get a free, fully-grown mango tree all to myself.

    @VD
    “I cannot wait to see how the UMC panics once they belatedly realize the African and Arabic immigrants are politically powerful enough to force legal recognition of polygamy. It’s already been de facto recognized in the UK and France.”
    I’m not UMC, so that’s probably why I’m already upset.
    But somebody once pointed out that all those governments have to do is spend less on social programs. (S/he actually didn’t put it in such nice terms.)

  • Iggles

    @ also intj

    Iggles, do you think looks have a lot to do with it? I see your point about the ability to send out IOI, but think appearance is probably linked with a higher N simply due to more male interest.

    No, it’s not as simple as saying low N women are unattractive and high N women are gorgeous. I’ve seen plenty of average looking girls who are married and/or go from boyfriend to boyfriend. I’ve seen downright ugly women when men on their arms too.

    If anything, I’d say having an extroverted personality type may make the biggest difference since extroverts are poised to meet more people than shy, introverted girls.

    Overall I think the more experience are girl has relating with guys in the romantic arena (i.e., not just as friends!), the easier it will be for her to get into a relationship. She will know how to calibrate and escalate.

  • Abbot

    “the more experience are girl has relating with guys in the romantic arena (i.e., not just as friends!), the easier it will be for her to get into a relationship. She will know how to calibrate and escalate.”

    Then the woman with eight notches is going to lose out to the one with 24 and that tart with 41 is clearly a relationship-entry expert. Yup. “Dang Bob, that Joyce really roped you in right quick. You best get outta town with her before you’re plum laughed out”

  • Iggles

    @ Abbot:

    Then the woman with eight notches is going to lose out to the one with 24 and that tart with 41 is clearly a relationship-entry expert. Yup.

    Not sure why you’re equating dating experience with racking up a notch count. You can go on a date with someone, and multiples dates with someone and not have sex with them!

    I know that from experience. In the months before I met my bf I went out 5 guys. Activities included going out for dinner, walks in the park, grabbed coffee, and went to the movies. I did not sleep with any of them. No BJs and HJs ( :roll: ). I did not rack up any “notches” — my N is 2. So indeed, dating doesn’t mean sex!

    I gained valuable experience from dating those guys. Simple things such a learning how to relax around the opposite sex and send out IOIs. All the “advice” in the world can only go so far because interactions with dates are not one-sided. PUAs have a point about gaining experience in the field. It’s how you learn; you make mistakes and find out what works for you.

    You may be a quality girl (or guy), but there are plenty of innocuous missteps that can derail a budding romance!

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Sai

    I’m not a saleswoman, just somebody who believes everyone should have the chance to urinate without excruciating pain. :)

    Madam, just check next time.

  • Iggles

    @ Ana:

    I agree with this. The sexual power gives the advantages to sluts that good girl lack.

    +1

    Part of the disconnect is that men will go were they can get sex the easier till they want a wife…how long does that take? By the time it happens the woman might be too old to compete anyway no to mention the men that fall in love with their slut and/or the ones that never want to settle down. And really telling girls to wait for years while the sluts get date and attention and they are just there waiting is as cruel as telling Betas to wait for the sluts to wait it up till they are done with the Alphas.

    I agree. It’s a good reason for “good girls” to aim for guys who are older than them, as guys their age are busy chasing/banging/getting one-itis for high N women.

    I disagree with this. Betas should focus on Betas, rewarding Alphas with any level of attention is as bad as rewarding sluts. The only way to fix the SMP is to have people to mate with their peers.

    Eh, I’m not anti-alpha. I’m anti-jerks and assholes. IMO, alpha doesn’t equal jerk.

    Personally, on the continuum of Alpha-Beta-Gammma, I prefer a Beta with alpha qualities.

  • Plain Jane

    “guys their age are busy chasing/banging/getting one-itis for high N women.”

    Ahhhh, the age old male fantasy of turning a ho into a housewife.

  • Emily

    Also, alpha-wannabes are often worse than the actual alphas. (Low SMV doesn’t always = good character.)

    I know the term “carousel-watcher” was coined over at Rockdal’s to describe chaste alpha-chasing females, but guys can be carousel-watchers as well.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    They have no incentives to do so, and incentives drive behavior.

    Common theme of yours. Not sure it takes into account the full range of human emotions. The only other caveat I’d add (as usual) is that there isn’t one set of universal incentives for all men. After all, if that was so and all men merely followed their dicks around (they don’t), “love” would never be an emotionally motivated response. They’d never change their behavior or see individual women (either modest or not) as special or unique in any way, beyond the physical.

    When I think of “incentive”, for some reason I picture people seemingly happy in their relationships who cheat. The incentive is there (they’re out of town and will never get caught), so they go for it. Most people clearly don’t act on such an incentive…

  • Iggles

    @ Abbot (#298)

    define chaste

    N < 5. Doesn't give out BJs and HJs like candy.

    Um, men are not mad. Preferring to completely avoid them means just that. Then how is there even a chance at being “mad?”

    I don’t buy this. The men who rant about sluts are definitely mad.

    Abbot, pretty much all of your comments mention “sluts”, “alpha cock”, “carousel riders”, etc. and come off as pretty angry.

    Anger is a sign that you care. Indifference would be inline with avoiding and ignoring sluts.

    “men who decry “sluts” will take both sex & relationships with a “reformed slut” over a chaste good girl.”

    Because the slut is proactively all up in their face? and what is chaste?

    Hmm, sounds like you’re saying because the sluts are offering sex off the bat men go for it instead of pursuing a chaste girl of quality who wants to take it slow and build a real connection first.

    Do you realize this proves my point (and Ana’s) that chaste girls are at a disadvantage here?

    The men who go for the “easier” option have only themselves to blame when their relationship with the “reform slut” fails! They did not choose their woman for quality. They instead slid into a relationship after the fact, which is a risky strategy. The “reformed slut” may be a quality woman or she may not.

    “The girls who have dated, and thus perfected IOIs, are the ones getting guys”

    Sounds very proactive on their part. That is not surprising whatsoever…

    Proactive because they had practice interacting with the opposite sex in romantic situations.

    Then by all means, make lots of male acquaintances who will verbally advice you on how you should go about landing a husband. Super +1

    Advice only goes so far. It’s a supplement for experience — it doesn’t replace it.

  • Abbot

    “So indeed, dating doesn’t mean sex!”

    This is very true. But all too often “embracing sexuality” and “becoming the person you are” (of course this ONLY applies women) is promotionally linked with sex. Its is strategically linked this way because these women know they need to “soften the blow” of their numbers and most women these days are weak (due to the inability to gain strength in other areas of their lives) and go for the quick fix with many things including challengeless crotch nerve stimulation via multi penis.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Eh, I’m not anti-alpha. I’m anti-jerks and assholes. IMO, alpha doesn’t equal jerk.

    and
    Also, alpha-wannabes are often worse than the actual alphas. (Low SMV doesn’t always = good character.)

    And a hot slut won’t doesn’t always means that she won’t be crazy and/or cheat…but the chances are higher so why risk it?
    To quote someone smarter than me: be the change you want to see in the world.
    Men shouldn’t spent their youth banging sluts and ignoring the good girls, neither good girls should spent their youth banging Alphas and ignoring Betas but in the end no one should marry those men or women that wouldn’t had committed to them during their “High SMV” phase.
    I know that its a pipe dream though once feelings/sex are on the way most people will go for shiny over reliable, but it doesn’t means that is the best strategy, YMMV.

  • Iggles
    define chaste

    N < 5. Doesn't give out BJs and HJs like candy.

    I should amend that. There really isn’t a hard # for what constitutes “chaste” because it’s relative to age. I listed that number as a 27 year old woman.

    Obviously, a 13 year old with a N of 5 is a very different story! Likewise, denoting any 40 year old with more than 5 partners is a “slut” is not realistic.

  • Abbot

    “I listed that number as a 27 year old woman”

    Then chaste = universally normal

  • Abbot

    “The men who go for the “easier” option have only themselves to blame when their relationship with the “reform slut” fails! They did not choose their woman for quality.”

    That has been stated numerous times on this site. It certainly is his fault for being lazy and completely forgetting this is not his grandpa’s America. Sadly, men have to put in that weeder-outer effort if they are not inclined to immerse themselves in pre 1970 America aka just about everywhere else on Earth.

  • Ion

    Iggles and pvw

    “Instead of a girl being told to be chaste for betas, she should develop dating experience with both alphas and betas. I’m not saying she should slut it up and sleep with them (let me be clear – you can date without having sex!), but there is a correlation between chaste girls and lack of dating experience. The girls who have dated, and thus perfected IOIs, are the ones getting guys!”

    STANDING OVATION, at all your latest comments Iggles.

    “If anything, I’d say having an extroverted personality type may make the biggest difference since extroverts are poised to meet more people than shy, introverted girls.”

    I know several below average and/or fat sluts to know this isn’t true. Morals, integrity, etc., and personality type are not necessarily related to attractiveness. Plenty of above average women have it rough in this dating market.

    What seems more reasonable is that men become more interested in women when they believe high value men want them. In that area, promiscuous and/or experienced women win again.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    I know several below average and/or fat sluts to know this isn’t true. Morals, integrity, etc., and personality type are not necessarily related to attractiveness. Plenty of above average women have it rough in this dating market.

    What seems more reasonable is that men become more interested in women when they believe high value men want them. In that area, promiscuous and/or experienced women win again.

    First of all, a question: are these average or fat sluts getting faithful LTRs or just getting lots of attention for a few dates, a few months or as FWB’s?

    I want to share my perspective as a man and I know it is shared by 95% of the men I know. I don’t mean this as an attack against you and I would enjoy to further discuss it if you are so inclined. The statement just struck me as so different from what I experience and most men I know that I had to speak up. :)

    I think that for me and the men I know that if you switched ‘men’ and ‘women’ in your statement it would be more accurate. As a man I don’t fundamentally care if other men (even of high status) want a girl that I think is a 5. I’d say thank God and have at her because they’ll be pursuing her instead of the ones I want.

    Now, do I like to have other people, both men and women notice if I’m with a pretty woman. You bet, I have an ego. But that’s different than wanting a woman primarily because other men of high status want them. In fact there are many men of high status (and way higher than I’ll ever have) who make me shake my head at their choice of women, considering who I think they could probably get. Here are just 3 examples that immediately come to mind:

    1) Bill and Hillary Clinton (and let’s stipulate a ~25 y/o Hillary lookign her best)
    2) Michael Jordan and his first wife
    3) Lamar Odom and Khloe Kardashian
    4) The Smallville guy and his wife (admittedly cute but not really hot)

    I’m not interested in the first 3 at all, regardless of their high status man, and somewhat in the fourth but not because of her man.

    To help you understand this further, I wouldn’t marry a movie star, rich 6 in looks that had dated several high status guys. I would marry an 8 woman with no fame and no money but that had good character, intellectual curiosity and a sense of humor.

    Now, I will say that flirty, outgoing, promiscuous, sexy women of average looks do have the advantage over their equal-looks shy counterparts because they interact with the men, they get them turned on both physically and also through their bubbly and fun, or even provocative, personalities. The sluttiness will be a turn-off for many men and not for some but that is only one factor–maybe it lowers their MMV by 0.5 to these men but doesn’t rule them out. Some of these average guys that end up with these girls are so starved for female attention and a woman who let’s him know she likes sex and with him that they can overlook this.

    Ted D is a good example of a man who’s wife has a higher N that’s roughly 3x higher than his (I don’t think she was overly slutty though) and that bothered him a bit but he values that she’s good in bed, he has no doubt she’ll be faithful and overall he really loves her. Other men that get with these women can get their minds blown by the good sex (in cases where it’s really good) and just get obsessed. And finally, there are some men that aren’t so dominant that like a woman that will take charge and claim him as hers, even if she’s been slutty in the past or a point or two below him in SMV.

    I’d be curious about your further thoughts.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Darsh

    The song is – and that performance – sounds lovely, but I’ve never really liked Italian for some reason. It sounds so… “ugly”.

    Make a charge against Fort Wagner then.

    @Ana @Iggles @Abbot et al.

    The problem in pursuing a high N-lifestyle, is that you end up meeting someone that knows exactly how to play you, without being affected by you. We all have our buttons, and somebody (quite unknowingly) knows exactly how to press them. There is a reason that words like Femme Fatale and Rake exists.

  • Abbot

    The facts are out there and very consistent. This is from four years ago:

    “promiscuity reduces a woman’s attractiveness as a potential marriage partner. Men are programmed to react disapprovingly to signs of promiscuity in a potential long term mate (although they don’t seem to mind it in a short-term partner). Women today don’t realize the importance many men (those looking for a serious relationship) place on a woman’s promiscuity. Many of these men feel that they would be selling themselves short if they end up committing to a woman who has been promiscuous.”
    –Joanne B. Parrotta

    http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Promiscuity_And_Marriage_Don_t_Mix.html

    .

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    A personal example about how women like men with social proof. I dated a girl long distance that was about an 8 in looks. At church one day I was talking with a girl that I was friends with and had been interested in in the past and received mostly a cold shoulder. I asked her out and she was always busy and didn’t want to.

    Well, I told her I was dating a girl. She asked if I had pictures so I showed her a few. She freaked out because she was neighbors with the girl in college, “OMG, that’s cute little Jenny! She went on so many dates she made me sick!” This suddenly elevated my value but I swear I hadn’t changed from 2 months prior. She started showing interest and when my relationship with Jenny ended she asked me out.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The problem in pursuing a high N-lifestyle, is that you end up meeting someone that knows exactly how to play you, without being affected by you. We all have our buttons, and somebody (quite unknowingly) knows exactly how to press them. There is a reason that words like Femme Fatale and Rake exists.

    Yeah but then the issue is that we most not teach people that pushing the right buttons = become their slaves. How about “I’m really attracted to this gal/guy but he/she is bad news…I pass” is not that complicated is like choosing to be vegetarian or go paleo. At the beginning is hard as hell but after a few years your body doesn’t want the junk food anymore. Train yourself to avoid sluts/cads and the good girls/nice guys will start to look plentiful and dare I said more attractive. Is like the guys that recommend go cold turkey on porn to be able to enjoy real women again, it might be hard but everything worth achieving is, YMMV.
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/27/relationshipstrategies/choose-attraction/
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/23/relationshipstrategies/attraction-is-a-choice/

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    I should clarify that I meant switching the words men and women in the 2nd paragraph I quoted and not the first:

    “What seems more reasonable is that men become more interested in women when they believe high value men want them. In that area, promiscuous and/or experienced women win again.”

  • Abbot

    It is not necessarily a “moral” issue but this an indication that the corner has been turned and these women will be helped -

    http://msdora.hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Treat-a-Woman-Who-is-Promiscuous-and-Naive

    Amanda Marcotte is on the other shoulder, all red with horns, pointed tail and a pitchfork…

  • Abbot

    Its just not looking good. Let someone else get stuck with this trail of crap…

    “not only did female promiscuity coincide with depression, it also often had lasting effects on women’s ability to enjoy sex. Many married women told me that in order to have a normal sexual relationship with their husband, they had to work through the negative aftereffects of early promiscuity — not trusting men, feeling used, seeing sex as unrelated to love, and disdaining their husband’s sexual overtures. And many said they still couldn’t have a normal sex life with their husband.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/281795/four-legacies-feminism-dennis-prager

    .

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think the PUAs and the MGTOW isolationists both have important contributions to offer many guys. They work on different sides of the balance sheet—PUAs look to increase social Assets like attractiveness, confidence, verbal agility, sensitivity to cryptic indicators, and so on; MGTOW look at the Liabilities side and try to increase emotional independence, decrease neediness and approval-seeking, etc.

    I suppose the issue for most men is going to be finding the Goldilocks Zone: for example, someone could get into PUA behaviors because he was motivated by an intense, never-quenched need for physical validation from women, which would work at cross-purposes to the Zen-like MGTOW objective of detachment from reliance on external sources for the psychic paychecks. The MGTOW could see the pure PUA’s lifestyle as being the dangerously one-dimensional world of the addict.

    On the other hand, a guy could go so far into MGTOW that self-imposed sexual exile became a comfortable, safe-seeming choice and he did risk becoming bitter, suffering confidence problems, etc. This would be a shame, because the freedom of MGTOW and the emphasis on self-development activities could otherwise have made him an interesting, accomplished, mysterious guy with the ladies. PUAs might say, correctly IMHO, that an MGTOW fundamentalist was emphasizing one part of his biological imperative (“Survival”) at terrible cost to another (“Sex”).

    I do think that some combination of the two approaches, properly handled, would make for a solid platform in the SMP, with MGTOW providing the strategic framework for emotional resilience and Robinson Crusoe-type survivability, while PUA informed specific tactics appropriate to the environment and the skilled navigation of socio-sexual hierarchies.

    It would be kind of like an elite investment banker who, away from work, followed a discipline of austere living and spent much of his free time practicing primitive survival skills at a school like BOSS. He might enjoy the game of the capital markets and the perks, but he’d still be a wild animal at heart and he could return to that kind of quasi-feral existence very quickly if he had to or wanted to. It would be hard to threaten a guy like that, because he probably wouldn’t give a fuck.

    The missing part of the nuclear triad could be an underlying, fail-safe search system that really did know how to recognize and appreciate a legit “keeper” if and when you ran into one, at which point you could (cautiously) focus on long-term pair-bonding.

    What do you all think?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      I do think that some combination of the two approaches, properly handled, would make for a solid platform in the SMP, with MGTOW providing the strategic framework for emotional resilience and Robinson Crusoe-type survivability, while PUA informed specific tactics appropriate to the environment and the skilled navigation of socio-sexual hierarchies.

      It may be that tactics from each of these approaches can be effectively combined in some way that achieves balance or gets you into “the zone.” However, that would be fortuitous rather than predictable, IMO. Both PUA and MGTOW are designed to fulfill specific objectives, and both specifically avoid relationships. In the case of PUA, the goal is P&D to maximize N, while in the case of MGTOW, the goal is N of zero to maximize peace and contentment. I am very skeptical that combining these two extremes in some way would lead to behavior that produces healthy relationships. Rather than the natural development of emotional intimacy, I picture a rather bizarre combination of behaviors that would read as false, and perhaps unstable.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    “How about “I’m really attracted to this gal/guy but he/she is bad news…I pass”

    Its Canadian thanksgiving atm.

    My family dinner last night and one younger cousin who is still in university brought his girlfriend.
    I don’t know if it was just me but she screams bad news. Its written in every line of her face (which is to put in bluntly, smokin hot). I asked my wife later that night and she said she looks like a bitch (my wife rarely swears or insults).

    Our family has constantly poked fun at me and my cousin because theres no doubt we’re family, we’re literally almost identical in terms of personality.

    I have no doubt he’s gonna dump her before Christmas. I did almost exactly the same thing at his age (my one and only crazy experience). Sex was incredible. The drama was not.

    It’s weird, she doesn’t look the same as the crazy one but the vibe is nearly identical. Different eyes but the same stare.

    Another example. Is a friend from uni. Her N is well over 30 and she is damn proud (the accomplishment is lost on me). Her number of boyfriends is… well they’ve never lasted long enough to meet the friends.

    She’s very pretty and able to garner attention initially but lacks any long term hooks.

    So my long story comes back to this,

    I think sluts get a lot of attention.
    Its just not typically for more than the span of a few months.

    I’m trying to think of a women with a very high N (say over 25) who is married with kids, white picket fence etc. I can think of one off the top of my head and she seems quite happy and hubby is a cool guy. Theres 3-4 others are like my friend I described above.

    I don’t think its necessarily the promiscuity itself that causes them to get rejected repeatedly but personality traits that come as a package deal with the promiscuity.

    @Ion

    Now that you’ve clarified your position i’d like to say that I agree. Dating experience and learning IOIs is a must for all women.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Marellus
    No, remember I am a commodities trader, so technical analysis does not apply in my field the way it does in bond and equity markets. I generally stick to fundamental analysis since there is nothing objectively causative (in a scientific sense) about technical analysis; at best you can try to ride the wave of institutional high frequency traders, but it is unlikely you can beat their computers.

    @ Susan
    “Genes play 50%”? The idea that genes are controlling our conscience behavior and overriding our will is a reflection of the growth of determinism (biological or otherwise) in the West and determinism is just a form of superstition. Max Weber compelling explains how civilizations move in cycles of enchantment, disenchantment, and finally back to re-enchantment. Case in point; let’s says a mother wants her unborn child to grow-up to be a mathematical genius, what would she be told by “experts”?
    1312 (Enchantment):
    “Your child has to be born under the right stars with the proper astrological signs.”
    1612 (Disenchantment/ Calvinist Values):
    “Make him study from sun up to sundown six days a week and beat him if he is slack in his studies.”
    2012 (Re-enchantment):
    “Your child must be born with the right genes and a genetic disposition toward math.”
    Do you see how we have mentally regressed to believing in a deterministic universe were our will has no bearing on our outcomes? A society that has given up on the idea that their wills are the primary determent of their life outcomes is a very sick civilization and essentially already dead. To borrow from Shakespeare; the fault is not in the stars or in our genes, but within ourselves.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=iBHFFVCl-PMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=enchantment+disenchantment+reenchantment&source=bl&ots=EM4b-VU_JJ&sig=NMQyWkOg_eEFtB-pWScEoEZnsaQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GhZyUMaAG-nSigKGq4HIDg&ved=0CEAQ6wEwAw#v=onepage&q=enchantment%20disenchantment%20reenchantment&f=false

    @ VD
    I have read your posts on free trade and can attest to the fact they are large erroneous. America’s trade regime will not nor cannot be replicated internationally as it is a reflection of America’s status as the world reserve currency. When the Chinese allow the Yuan to float, the Yuan will become the world’s reserve currency (as well as triple Chinese GDP) and the whole house of card will come crashing down; we will finally have the much need structural adjustment in America that has been delayed for 40 years. When that happens and the West looks like post-Soviet Russia, we will see who is civilized and who is “semi-savage”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Herr Kaiser

      The idea that genes are controlling our conscience behavior and overriding our will is a reflection of the growth of determinism (biological or otherwise) in the West and determinism is just a form of superstition.

      I don’t think genes control our conscience or override our will, but there’s no question they stack the deck. The mutation on the DRD4 dopamine receptor and it’s predictive value re all manner of impulsive and risk-seeking, addictive behaviors is already being thoroughly studied.

      Genetics, including epigenetics, is in its infancy, but it’s probably not invalid to say that there are some human beings who are born with traits that may lead to psychopathic behavior, especially if the “nurture” half is the worst case scenario.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The missing part of the nuclear triad could be an underlying, fail-safe search system that really did know how to recognize and appreciate a legit “keeper” if and when you ran into one, at which point you could (cautiously) focus on long-term pair-bonding.

    What do you all think?

    I do think this is key. Both PUA’s and MGTWO have no filters to find “the one” I guess the problem is that looking for the one developed in so much heartbreak and “false positives” that is more practical to imagine that this mythical creature doesn’t exist. Most guys here that respect the outliers say that they wouldn’t advice a man to make any efforts to find one. Makes little sense to me old PUA’s get sick of punani after a while and many of them end up quitting or bitter so it seems that using this mine of resources on a permanent reliable investment is more conductive to long time happiness than just ratching counts till you get sick or/and quit.
    I think t will take a while for the missing third point to be developed. The info that good women are out there, that there is enough of them for all but that they need to filter like crazy, not waste time on sluts and be able to differentiate a truly good one from a poser is new and there are still many skeptics it will take more “field reports” to convince men to tweak their strategy, probably because it looks a lot like the old Beta ones that failed so miserably. Once upon a time society raised most of the individuals to eventually become mothers and wives and husbands and fathers. Now is an individual choice for every family to prepare their kids for that and many are thinking this happens out of thin air or that there is not merit in doing so. But it doesn’t mean that many people out there are instilling the idea that being a good wife/husband is as important and my guess some of them will say is more) than having a career and that having a long lasting marriage is a mark of success as is making good money, or again even more. The key is to find this people before someone else does it.
    Hoping we will see more people approaching this angle in the near future, YMMV.

  • pvw

    @ Ion, Iggles, Ana:

    What I find interesting about men who would complain about sluts but then later commit to them, is that this sure sounds like a male version of the hamster. As some have argued, they only complain about the SMP because they are not the ones benefiting; but as soon as they get some action from the sluts they claim they abhor, the tune changes!

    So are they really intereted in changing the smp and minimizing the effects of the sluts upon the whole system? Not at all. Do they really want nice girls? Absolutely not!

    Some of them might go so far as to talk about what they expect of their daughters, ie., to be chaste, yet, they are marrying a former slut??? That is who you want raising your daughter?

    Talk about incentives–no need to be a good girl, perhaps, since it won’t matter in the end? Mommy turned out just fine! Isn’t that part of the reason why some mothers might feel incapable of offering guidance to their daughters?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      Talk about incentives–no need to be a good girl, perhaps, since it won’t matter in the end? Mommy turned out just fine! Isn’t that part of the reason why some mothers might feel incapable of offering guidance to their daughters?

      I think this was very much a factor in the disconnect between mothers and daughters that I saw in my daughter’s circle. Thinking about my original group of girls, all of whom had mothers in denial, the moms included:

      2-3 religious or introverted prude types
      3-4 hardcore reformed sluts
      2 women whose husbands left first wives and children to make family #2 with them

      Very different pasts, yet all of these women were unavailable to speak with their daughters honestly about sex and relationships.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t know if it was just me but she screams bad news. Its written in every line of her face (which is to put in bluntly, smokin hot). I asked my wife later that night and she said she looks like a bitch (my wife rarely swears or insults).

    Heh this is part of my pet peeve with parents not using their trained eyes to warn their kids about this type of dating. Your description remind me of one that looked so white trash that Britney Spears would be ashamed of being seeing with her. I just hope your cousin has had some sage advice from someone in the family. The cases I had seen end very bad for all involved and then everyone is like “I knew she was bad news but I didn’t wanted to meddle/slut-shame/make you uncomfortable” *Facepalm”

    I think sluts get a lot of attention.
    Its just not typically for more than the span of a few months.

    I do know that intellectually and logically but as someone that spent at least 10 valentine days straight with not flowers, no gifts, no dinner invitations, nothing but my chocolate box (that I bought myself) and my romantic movies to keep me company. Is really hard to be good when all the sluts get at least some hours of attention while the good girls are growing spiderwebs on a shelf.
    And that was before Facebook.
    Single and divorced women make a HUGE deal of showing off how much “fun” they are having and how much “freedom” they enjoy. Us future mothers and wives get shamed if we share too many pics of our babies, or our pregnancies of we spent the last month at home and have nothing to show but a nice cooked meal and a clean house, but no one shames the party drunken girl half dressed surrounded by men that goes out every weekend.
    My point being there is a huge glamorization of promiscuity and men are not helping. We could use the help if we are going to fix this, YMMV.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Talk about incentives–no need to be a good girl, perhaps, since it won’t matter in the end? Mommy turned out just fine! Isn’t that part of the reason why some mothers might feel incapable of offering guidance to their daughters?

    I do think uninvolved mothers are probably in two categories the ones that were sluts and don’t feel comfortable accepting that this choices were bad and rather not talk or the ones that wished they were sluts and have some dreams of seeing their girls being more popular than they were with men. In any case both types know in the end they got married so why worry so much?
    Of course in the other side the very strict ones can also be the same way former sluts that haven’t come to terms with this and feel so bad that they want to spare their daughters of this life by any means necessary and the ones that wished they could and feel jealous of their daughters if they managed to get the male attention they didn’t.
    But you are right many men will commit to the former slut and hamsterize it as “I got one exception” and then try to do their best to make their daughters to not follow on their foot steps or worse don’t even pay attention because they don’t think the would know how.
    Is a complex matrix I wish someone could measure what is more likely.

  • Lokland

    @Ana

    ” “I knew she was bad news but I didn’t wanted to meddle/slut-shame/make you uncomfortable”

    Thats exactly how I feel in the current situation. He’s a bright kid though. He’ll figure it out fairly quickly.

    “My point being there is a huge glamorization of promiscuity and men are not helping. We could use the help if we are going to fix this, YMMV.”

    Facebook is for people whose families didn’t love them as children.

    I have FB with a whopping 44 friends. 4 friends + 10 SO of friends/wife’s friends + 30 family members and I’m totally unsearchable. I don’t know what this single fabulousness movement is. I do know my grandmothers pumpkin pie looks frickin heavenly and can’t wait to devour at least a half dozen pieces tomorrow.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I do know my grandmothers pumpkin pie looks frickin heavenly and can’t wait to devour at least a half dozen pieces tomorrow.

      So jealous! Happy Thanksgiving.

  • Sai

    @Bastiat Blogger
    I agree.
    (MGTOWs can go so many places and do so many things since they don’t have time and resources eaten up by an ungrateful bimbo.)

    @HerrKaiser
    FREAKING REDS

  • HerrKaiser

    @Sai
    REDs? The CCP shot all the true communist years ago.

  • Desiderius

    “For a woman who wants to get married lack of dating experience/IOIs is a much bigger liability than having a high N!!!”

    True dat.

    More carousel, less cock.

  • Sai

    @HerrKaiser
    You’re right, it just grinds my gears that the country is and will continue to be at the mercy of a People’s Republic.

  • Desiderius

    “STANDING OVATION, at all your latest comments Iggles.”

    Not all. Sometimes she’s like the MRA’s decrying all the chicks digging jerks, except now its men digging sluts. In both cases, the “good” girls/guys need to get themselves out there and get more experience and worry less about all the people of the opposite gender making wrong choices.

    Women require courage – if men are on the sidelines, they’re not showing that, whatever their excuse. Likewise, men require interest – if “good girls” stay on the sidelines, the same applies to them.

  • Desiderius

    Lokland,

    “Facebook is for people whose families didn’t love them as children.”

    That’s going to leave a mark. Nice one.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Thats exactly how I feel in the current situation. He’s a bright kid though. He’ll figure it out fairly quickly.

    Isn’t the risk too high if he doesn’t? If she gets pregnant tomorrow this will never end and he will pay forever. I would prefer to be surrounded by people that made me feel uncomfortable but gave me a good push in the right direction but it seems that I’m in the minority.

    Facebook is for people whose families didn’t love them as children.

    Heh true that, plenty of those to go around though and is not how they sell it.

  • Plain Jane

    Assortive mating. Its everywhere. Go to Walmart. Plenty of average and below average couples there. Average and below average women are not turning their noses up at regular men in hopes of garnering that hot alpha stud.

    Not air! Its obvious that those men don’t want women on their level or slightly below, but women who are out of their league. Otherwise they’d already be coupled up with a woman in their own league.

    Online you get guys who say, “I think I’m average in looks, whadaya think?” and then post a pic and they are below average. At a few of the blogs we talk about here some guys even went so far as to rate themselves 7s. So there’s a lot of self delusion out there.

    Its not the age of Aquarius yet.

  • Plain Jane

    Massive Edit:

    “Not air! Its obvious that those men don’t want women on their level or slightly below, but women who are out of their league. Otherwise they’d already be coupled up with a woman in their own league. ”

    I meant:
    Hot Air! Those men who say this (that average women turn their noses up at them in hopes of landing the hot alpha stud, say that only because they themselves aren’t attracted to women in their own league.

  • HerrKaiser

    “I do not believe that civilizations have to die because civilization is not an organism; it is a product of wills.” Arnold J. Toynbee
    “One cannot endure forever.” Mobutu Sese Seko
    See my comment to Susan on genetic and determinism (#331)
    In any event, the West will die and China will rise; the West will taste some of the bitterness it has been dishing out for 500 years; I cannot say I look forward to it, but also cannot say it is unjust. In the words of Abraham Lincoln, “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether”.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Abbot,

    Short of expatriating, being alone or joining a religious cult, that captive audience is sort of, well, stuck…

    Oh, come on, that’s ridiculous. Are you saying that virtually every woman in your country is a slut? Do you live in the United States? How do you define a slut? Is a slut any woman who touched a penis prior to meeting the man she marries?

    Your use of the term “multipenis” seems to imply that any woman who’s number is great than one is a slut in your view. You realize that that’s ridiculous, don’t you?

    I’m not arguing in favor of promiscuity. Then again, I don’t care enough to argue against it. But characterizing a whole country full of woman as slutty carousel riders is not just wrong-headed, but frankly disturbing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Scot Lasley

      But characterizing a whole country full of woman as slutty carousel riders is not just wrong-headed, but frankly disturbing.

      Agreed, particularly as I have put up substantial data demonstrating that only about 20% maximum of women are promiscuous.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Desiderius,

    Women require courage – if men are on the sidelines, they’re not showing that, whatever their excuse. Likewise, men require interest – if “good girls” stay on the sidelines, the same applies to them.

    This. We can complain about about women wanting alphas, jerks, manwhores, players, bad boys, douche bags, etc… And women can complain about men wanting sluts and bitches and whoever else they think men want. But the bottom line is that the people who are/were shut out of “hookup culture” or the “sexual marketplace” or whatever… are the people not willing to play the game. And if you’re not out there playing the game, then you have no right to complain.

    Some people might consider it unfair (though I don’t), but fortune doesn’t favor the well-behaved. Fortune favors those who live and play hard.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Scot Lasley

      But the bottom line is that the people who are/were shut out of “hookup culture” or the “sexual marketplace” or whatever… are the people not willing to play the game. And if you’re not out there playing the game, then you have no right to complain.

      I disagree strongly. Hookup culture, which by definition is the flipping of the script – physical intimacy always precedes emotional intimacy – is a game very few are suited for. Complaining early and often is one great way to spread the word so that ultimately 80% of men and women will realize “Huh! We all think this sucks!”

      Fortune favors those who live and play hard.

      I disagree. Those folks either go down in flames or miss out on a lot. Then again, if their levels of narcissism, Machiavellianism and sociopathy are high enough they have no idea what they’re missing, so it’s all good. They are toxic for others, though.

  • JQ

    @ Susan in re 285:

    No worries. Between giving a little back for the value I’ve derived from the content you post and having an excuse to indulge in reading and thinking about statistics, it’s been well worth it. Glad to be of help.

    As far as that grain of salt goes, statistics is something of a passion of mine, and I struggle with how much and how often to take salt with the statistics and studies I read. It’s one thing to say “All studies are merely suggestive and this one is no exception” and another to say “I have serious reservations about the quality of this study for the following reasons . . . “. If I might suggest three rather thin books, they would be http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728, http://www.amazon.com/Harvard-Business-Review-Decisions-Paperback/dp/1422172392/ref=dp_ob_title_bk/178-2240022-8979135, and http://www.amazon.com/Youve-Got-Be-Kidding-Jokes/dp/1405196645. All technical issues aside, the two major flaws I identified essential boil down to a reservation about the representativeness of the data (Chapter 1 of “How to Lie with Statistics”) and a likely appeal to authority (“The people who wrote the tool are the experts and they wouldn’t have designed it this way it was a bad idea!”) which is a classic logical fallacy. The rest was getting through the jargon.

    Oh wait, maybe I shouldn’t be endangering future billable hours :)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Some people might consider it unfair (though I don’t), but fortune doesn’t favor the well-behaved. Fortune favors those who live and play hard.

    Here is the best example….http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/10/05/honey-boo-boo-child-and-incentives/

    Just for the record this attitude is a huge part of the problem with the SMP and one could argue the economy.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @HanSolo, #2
    “Today you girls think you need to be in love. Back in my day we didn’t think so much about that. We just asked, ‘Will he treat me well? Can he provide? He can? Well, that’s good enough for me.”

    What your grandmother said resonates with me. I’ve recently come to agree that a man has to be crazier about the woman than she is about him to ensure a mutually faithful relationship… especially in light of the nearly unanymous advice that women focus on men who are two points lower in SMV. She should just choose to be married, appreciate his MMV, be dutiful, and empathetically love him. I think of this as hypo-gamy.

    In retrospect, I think I ave been practicing hypogamy most of my dating life. No takers yet, though. Still trying.

  • Plain Jane

    “What your grandmother said resonates with me. I’ve recently come to agree that a man has to be crazier about the woman than she is about him to ensure a mutually faithful relationship”

    > Men would disagree with this of course.

    “especially in light of the nearly unanymous advice that women focus on men who are two points lower in SMV. ”

    > Wait, WHAT?

    What about women who are 5s? They should go for 3s?

    “I think I ave been practicing hypogamy most of my dating life. No takers yet, though.”

    > Try hypergamy this season, see how that works out for ya. Or at the very least an even trade.

  • JutR

    Bastiat, I like your train of thought on MGTOW life balance, but you always idealize the extreme paradigm of the ultimate alpha. From my observation, the reality is that there are many of us just below the peak that achieve quite nicely without the SEAL training and 7 figure salaries. I imagine there are some of those, but the rarity level is a good deal higher.

    There are a lot of us out there that are doing fine without the laurels of Caesar placed upon our brows. I make a comfortable 6 figures, travel (in NY all last week), meet with B & C level execs regularly, run teams of offshore resources, and stay quite active. I shoot regularly, but not competitively. I exercise, but not obsessively, preferring real labor to training scenarios.

    Quick side story, I cut down 50 trees two weeks ago, had my first mishap in years of cutting trees for firewood and land clearing. A large ash caught on another tree when coming down, rolled off the stump and slammed my ankle into a stone wall. My first broken bone, a distal tibia break, and I walked the 500 yards back to the farmhouse, got a cast the next day, and spent the last week walking around on it in downtown NY.

    There are a lot of guys out there who live quietly, and just pursue their interests. I’ve said it before, but I know several, and through them, others. One scuba dives and sails, and we’ve shared home theater tips. Another rides motorcycles, and does fine detail woodworking. Another bow hunts and fly fishes. All of them make $$, and have zero motivation to invest in society beyond squaring away their own needs and those of their parents and immediate family.

    MGTOW is real, and I think higher SES people tend towards it more, since they most likely have the time to examine the issue in more detail, and they have more to protect.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Oh boy you got to love South Park. They address fat epidemy and shamelessness in one episode! :D Brilliant!!!!
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s16e09-raising-the-bar
    Can’t wait to see The Book of Mormon :D

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    What your grandmother said resonates with me. I’ve recently come to agree that a man has to be crazier about the woman than she is about him to ensure a mutually faithful relationship… especially in light of the nearly unanymous advice that women focus on men who are two points lower in SMV. She should just choose to be married, appreciate his MMV, be dutiful, and empathetically love him. I think of this as hypo-gamy.

    I think is more like being realistic. Passion is no mean to last never was and never will. If you pair up for the right reasons you get to enjoy passion while it last if you get lucky you fall in love again periodically with the same person but when you or him are in a lower point of their attractiveness you have more reasons to wait it out than to cheat or leave. That was in the past at least now being unattractive for five seconds is some sort of crime. Pity that.

    In retrospect, I think I ave been practicing hypogamy most of my dating life. No takers yet, though. Still trying.
    I’m going to write a post about common mistakes I had seen in women that are perpetually single. I will link it here hopefully we can find the flaw in your plan. If you are low in hypergamy or hypogamic then your problem most be in logistics. Had you tried luck in online dating sites yet?

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Anacona wrote:

    My point being there is a huge glamorization of promiscuity and men are not helping. We could use the help if we are going to fix this, YMMV.

    Sorry but men who slut-shame women are instantly reverse creep-shamed by women. You are on your own, men are going to be passive in this respect and continue the pump-and-dump the loose women.

    Lokland wrote:
    Facebook is for people whose families didn’t love them as children.

    Very true, but we don’t get to pick our families, just our friends. Out of my peer groups in my career and my athletic endeavors, I’m the only product of divorce. It’s kind of obvious why. My mother is nice enough to often point out how stubborn I am but sadly that’s a necessary element to my success.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan, you’ve got to see this video.

    http://www.virginmediashorts.co.uk/film/3388/maybe

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Sorry but men who slut-shame women are instantly reverse creep-shamed by women.

    Men don’t slut shame, men don’t pay attention to them or pay too much attention to them. That is part of the problem the sluts get the men they want anyway so why not become a slut? Hence you are giving incentives to bad behaviour.

    You are on your own, men are going to be passive in this respect and continue the pump-and-dump the loose women.

    You could choose to have sex with good girls in a relationship you know? I’m not asking for celibacy mostly filters and prudence.

  • Mike C

    I’ve been trying my darndest to avoid any commenting, but I simply have to interject on this discussion about men and selecting “good girls” versus “reformed sluts”.

    Much of the discussion is so devoid of any understanding whatsoever of the reality men face and the attributes men value in romantic/sexual relationships which is shocking to me given how much men have tried to convey certain points.

    Couple main points. Most men don’t want to be celibate and have no romantic/sexual relationship with a woman. Men are highly visual. There is simply no getting around the fact that a certain baseline of physical appearance is going to be highly prioritized. As Desi points out, the women THAT ACTUALLY SHOW INTEREST AND ESCALATE will get the guy. Full stop.

    Here’s the thing I suspect very few women here grok. In terms of women, generally speaking you either have a scarcity mindset or abundance mindset. Very, very, very, few men have as as starting point an abundance mindset because their entire life experience affirms that is the case. There is only a minority of men who have the general attractiveness, social skill set, and “confidence” to start from an abundance mindset. In a nutshell, this means most men operate from a beggars can’t be choosers mindset. If they meet a woman they are at least somewhat physically attracted to, and she shows interest…well…that is good enough…because the alternative might very well mean nothing for a long time.

    The bottom line is for “good girls” on the “sidelines” not getting a lot of male attention you simply have to take the steps to improve your physical appearance to the best of whatever your natural starting point is. My sister was over and we were talking about this with my fiancee. They are both physically attractive women, but were not always so. I asked my fiancee about the male attention she got from 20-30 versus 31+ after she lost the 100 pounds. She NEVER got approached in her twenties but at 31+ got approached a ton. Nobody gave two shits about her character and “good girl” qualities when she was 200 pounds.

    The other part is if a guy makes a move, and you are interested, you’d better make it very clear you are interested. I’ve been trying to work on this with my sister who has the looks, but fumbles the ball in early stages because she is too reserved. For better or worse, the “slutty/wild” types such as my ex-wife tend to come on very strong and make it clear they are into you. Again, if a guy has a scarcity mindset, hasn’t had a ton of success with women, and now has a somewhat physically attractive women showing a lot of interest, that is enough.

    I’m going to say it again, because it is so important it bears repeating. Guys are selecting primarily on some level of physical attraction and/or demonstrated interest from the woman. In whatever scenario you can imagine with crazy/bitchy/slutty/nutty women that guys select, they are hitting one of those two buttons. Really, then if you are “good girl” again all you have to do to be competitive with the crazy/bitchy/slutty is hit one of those same two buttons.

  • Mike C

    Now, I will say that flirty, outgoing, promiscuous, sexy women of average looks do have the advantage over their equal-looks shy counterparts because they interact with the men, they get them turned on both physically and also through their bubbly and fun, or even provocative, personalities. The sluttiness will be a turn-off for many men and not for some but that is only one factor–maybe it lowers their MMV by 0.5 to these men but doesn’t rule them out. Some of these average guys that end up with these girls are so starved for female attention and a woman who let’s him know she likes sex and with him that they can overlook this.

    HS, I’m going to strongly point out that you’ve completely nailed/captured the male POV here. I”ll add another issue here is the combination of mixed signals and plausible deniability routine many women run. In other words, you could have a women engaging in the exact same behaviors and in one case she is just being “friendly” and the guy is being presumptuous to assume a romantic interest and in the other case she is sending an IOI and he is too obtuse to get it. For the same behaviors. This creates a minefield of potential confusion for the less savvy guy, and creates the dynamic where a guy is going to go with whatever woman shows the clearest, strongest interest IN HIM regardless of whatever baggage she brings to the table.

  • Abbot

    “Really, then if you are “good girl” again all you have to do to be competitive with the crazy/bitchy/slutty is hit one of those same two buttons.”

    Even the men who have an abundance mindset prefer the “good girl” if the choice is available and she is being competitive

  • Mike C

    That is part of the problem the sluts get the men they want anyway so why not become a slut? Hence you are giving incentives to bad behaviour.

    Ana, I”m probably repeating myself here but those “sluts” aren’t getting the men they want BECAUSE of their sluttiness but DESPITE it because of the other factors/attributes that both myself and HanSolo mentioned so if you take a woman who is missing all that stuff and simply add “sluttiness” to her it really isn’t beneficial to her. In fact, that might be the worst. A girl who is “slutty” but brings a lot more to the table THAT MEN VALUE are going to have that guy doing the mental gymnastics to overlook/justify the slutty behavior especially given the contextual backdrop of a scarcity mindset. A girl who is “slutty” but doesn’t bring other things is more likely to get pigeon-holed as pure pump and dump material with little to no consideration as LTR material.

  • Abbot

    “a guy is going to go with whatever woman shows the clearest, strongest interest IN HIM regardless of whatever baggage she brings to the table.”

    Its two people from the same league who feel they settled for one another, aka the harem damage.

  • Mike C

    Even the men who have an abundance mindset prefer the “good girl” if the choice is available and she is being competitive

    Right, and I could list examples of that. Frequent commenter and blogger VD is a good example I think (as I recall he has a pretty high N). I could rattle of a lot more high N men who eventually married a “good girl” type.

    But the simple fact of the matter…and this is where I depart from the line of thinking that many high N women are screwed is very few men have the sort of competitive positioning where they can exercise that level of selectivity. At the end of the day, everyone has to pair off with someone else or accept being single. There are only so many highly attractive, good character people to go around. Most guys will end up taking what they can get.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the simple fact of the matter…and this is where I depart from the line of thinking that many high N women are screwed is very few men have the sort of competitive positioning where they can exercise that level of selectivity. At the end of the day, everyone has to pair off with someone else or accept being single. There are only so many highly attractive, good character people to go around. Most guys will end up taking what they can get.

      This really confirms the fears and resentment that low N women are expressing. Not only do the sluts wind up doing “just fine” in the mating sweepstakes, they often pair off with fellow high N types who view their N as rounding error. Their long-term prospects for happiness and fidelity in marriage may be poor, but at the time of marriage, it looks like they’ve hit the jackpot with some sexy alpha type.

      Also, there’s a huge cognitive dissonance factor among men (hamster?) when this happens. The more guys who “take what they can get,” the more likely they’ll spin it over time – good-looking girl, her high N must be considered in light of the level of interest she got from men, lots of women have a higher N, etc. And of course, they all reinforce this for one another.

      In the end, high N women may be more successful in attracting and keeping men, regardless of men’s desire for low sexual experience in a partner.

  • Abbot

    “A girl who is “slutty” but doesn’t bring other things is more likely to get pigeon-holed as pure pump and dump material with little to no consideration as LTR material.”

    A girl who is slutty has created for herself a higher bar to clear or has more to prove to get out of the slut hole she dug. On so many levels its so much better to avoid becoming slut

  • Abbot

    “Most guys will end up taking what they can get.”

    Likewise for women in the end but women at least got a lot more sex.

    The men feel dejected; the women lament. Such a great relationship foundation

  • Mike C

    Well, I told her I was dating a girl. She asked if I had pictures so I showed her a few. She freaked out because she was neighbors with the girl in college, “OMG, that’s cute little Jenny! She went on so many dates she made me sick!” This suddenly elevated my value but I swear I hadn’t changed from 2 months prior. She started showing interest and when my relationship with Jenny ended she asked me out.

    Haha. I’ve had my experiences with social proof as well. Of all things, I find it to be the most objectively surreal. I mean…you think…OK…I’m the same height I was before, my face looks the same, I’ve got the same personality…in all objective ways I am exactly the same person as before but now you are attracted because you saw me with another attractive woman. On some level, its almost nuts, but once you are aware of it you can use that to your advantage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      OK…I’m the same height I was before, my face looks the same, I’ve got the same personality…in all objective ways I am exactly the same person as before but now you are attracted because you saw me with another attractive woman. On some level, its almost nuts, but once you are aware of it you can use that to your advantage.

      This is not limited to mating or women. Woody Allen’s “I don’t want to join any club that will have me as a member” sums it up. The pecking order is very real for both sexes, and affiliation with someone of high status is sought by both sexes. That manifests differently, but the dynamic is the same.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    (formerly Samael FYI….this name seems more fitting)

    I am +1 everything MIKE C has said 355-360. As a (self proclaimed) good guy that has been burned by a few high N types in my day, this more or less sums it up. Hell to be honest I even had the gut reaction but stifled it anyway. Nothing like realizing how truly dumb your failures really are…ugh

  • Mike C

    In fact there are many men of high status (and way higher than I’ll ever have) who make me shake my head at their choice of women, considering who I think they could probably get. Here are just 3 examples that immediately come to mind:

    1) Bill and Hillary Clinton (and let’s stipulate a ~25 y/o Hillary lookign her best)
    2) Michael Jordan and his first wife

    HS, couple of observations here. In both these cases, you had rampant infidelity on the part of the guy. FWIW, I’ve heard some stuff on Jordan that I have reasons to believe is from a reliable source. Some of his exploits are legendary. With the Clintons it is pretty clear you had a marriage that was based on a pragmatic political/career alliance. I’d bet against that he ever was genuinely attracted to her. I’m really not sure what the deal with Jordan was. Clearly, he married well below his SMV.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ana

    Men don’t slut shame, men don’t pay attention to them or pay too much attention to them.

    I worked for a retail department store for several years back in college. Working in that kind of an environment where people are looking for things they want, and don’t always find them, I learned a number of simple truths that had been uncovered over the years via marketing research. One of those was a concept called the “Silent Consumer Complaint”.

    If a shopper didn’t like your establishment, or your selection, or had some other problem with how the business was run, maybe 10% would vocally complain about it. For the other 90%, they wouldn’t say anything or express any overt discontent, and rarely asked more than one or two innocuous questions. They’d merely leave and rarely (if ever) come back to shop there again. A retail establishment which presented itself poorly could potentially be alienating 9 out of 10 consumers and wouldn’t even know it.

    This was back in the days before Yelp and such, but I believe this phenomenon holds true for a substantial majority of consumers. Most people just aren’t that aggressive when it comes to expressing disapproval. My suspicion is that the dating scene (or SMP or whatever) is very similar. Promiscuous women, clearly a minority, might be “good looking” in the stereotypical pop culture style (skinny, too much makeup, fake tan), but how they act and dress publically could very well be alienating 9 out of 10 guys looking for a serious GF or LTR. These women will never know it because they’ve already been written off before they’ve even been approached. Call it judging a book by it’s cover (and maybe the inside flap). :wink:

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Hi Mike!….you cannot scape our intellectual female clutches MWA HA HA HA HA j/k :D I’m glad you are back!

    In whatever scenario you can imagine with crazy/bitchy/slutty/nutty women that guys select, they are hitting one of those two buttons. Really, then if you are “good girl” again all you have to do to be competitive with the crazy/bitchy/slutty is hit one of those same two buttons.

    You say all you have to do like is easy.
    For starters women have no idea how to go at it. We have had this conversation before remember? That is why you have the dressing like a slut/acting like a bitch tendency because for a woman she sees the dress and the attitude and assume that is what guys want. Is like the gorgeous/sexy issue women have their own attractiveness parameters while men have others so the message the other gender sent is decoded differently, and if Emmawatsonpixiecutgate is to be believed we still haven’t worked this one out.

    A girl who is “slutty” but brings a lot more to the table THAT MEN VALUE are going to have that guy doing the mental gymnastics to overlook/justify the slutty behavior especially given the contextual backdrop of a scarcity mindset. A girl who is “slutty” but doesn’t bring other things is more likely to get pigeon-holed as pure pump and dump material with little to no consideration as LTR material.

    Yeah but she will spent years in the pump and dump before anyone noticed that she didn’t got the men and many women will say that she at least got laid (women get horny too you know?).
    Again we need to meet on the middle.
    Women should try and improve their looks and be more aggressive (you know I preach that all the time) but men shouldn’t spent years just taking on sluts and ignoring the good girls, because is their job to endure staying on the shelves till they feel ready, as mentioned above is hard to think this is an hare vs turtle race when the race is 10 years or more long and you can’t even see the finish line.

    Right, and I could list examples of that. Frequent commenter and blogger VD is a good example I think (as I recall he has a pretty high N). I could rattle of a lot more high N men who eventually married a “good girl” type.

    Good girls marrying former players are not helping either, they are again saying that men should pump and dump because their attractiveness will have her hamsterizing that she won something valuable and she wouldn’t care and in fact go beyond duty to keep him like the lady with the Alpha that is already bored of the marriage.
    I understand that really attractive people function on other realms and rules I understand and accept it I never really didn’t, but that is part of the disconnect the men that see the Alpha getting away with murder and getting a hot good girl in the end will aspire to do the same, the good girl that see the slut never alone in a weekend will assume that she is a miniskirt away from the same attention thus the disconnect continue.
    Both genders need to accept that there is a top that few of us can achieve but just because not all of us can be Hollywood stars lite doesn’t mean we can’t be happy, sexually fulfilled and paired up, YMMV.

  • Mike C

    Hi Mike!….you cannot scape our intellectual female clutches MWA HA HA HA HA j/k :D I’m glad you are back!

    Kiss on cheek :)

    BTW, wishing you an easy delivery and healthy baby!

  • Emily

    >> “Sometimes she’s like the MRA’s decrying all the chicks digging jerks, except now its men digging sluts. In both cases, the “good” girls/guys need to get themselves out there and get more experience and worry less about all the people of the opposite gender making wrong choices.”

    Haha yeah, I can’t deny the similarities. To be fair, we’ve had to listen to non-stop male complaining for the past few months. It’s our turn to do some venting. ;)

    I think Iggles hit the nail on the head. I’d still strongly advise against actually *becoming* a slut, but it’s important to identify the traits that have allowed them to become successful. ie. the ability to flirt/display interest/send IOIs.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I can’t help thinking our biology wants to break us just to spite our intelligence……..somewhere someone is laughing there asses off no doubt.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I am +1 everything MIKE C has said 355-360. As a (self proclaimed) good guy that has been burned by a few high N types in my day, this more or less sums it up. Hell to be honest I even had the gut reaction but stifled it anyway. Nothing like realizing how truly dumb your failures really are…ugh

    For the record I know that a man that doesn’t have many picks of women is more likely to take whatever is offered. But there are men out there that will rather orbit a 7 than accept an honest approach of a 5, even if they are 5 themselves. They are not taking what they are offering they are downright rejecting the most homely girl for the slight chance the hottie will drop a panty at them one day. I had seen it happening enough in here that I wonder how often is lack of choice indeed or just a case of “penis pointing out the shiny”, YMMV.

    One of those was a concept called the “Silent Consumer Complaint”.

    Ohh know the concept and I’m ashamed of saying that I do that all the time. Trying to join the 10% it doesn’t help anyone not to give a chance to the poor business to improve.

    These women will never know it because they’ve already been written off before they’ve even been approached. Call it judging a book by it’s cover (and maybe the inside flap).
    Very good point. The disconnect is a complex thing we are just brainstorming ALL the causes.

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    Good to see you. That’s my theory with some of these guys that marry well below their SMV, that they intend on hitting the hotties outside the marriage and perhaps keep the lower SMV as the life partner in some way or other. I’ll echo the advice you’ve given in my next comment.

  • HanSolo

    3 Main Categories For Shy Women Having Trouble:

    1) Up your SMV and MMV

    1a) SMV Up your hotness, as much as you can without becoming neurotic or unhealthy. Don’t despair if you’re a 5 and can only become a 5.5. Do it, that mild improvement will help reel in the guys that have a minimum threshold of 5.5 and were on the fence when you were a 5.

    1b) MMV Upping your SMV is part of this and was addressed above. For the rest, work on your personality and relatonship skills. Drop any entitlement attitude. Adopt a more feminine, positive and loving personality. Drop any bitchiness. Become a more interesting person. See Susan’s 25-point list on how to get a boyfriend.

    2) Make your expectations realistic. Get a realistic appraisal of your SMV and MMV from at least 5 men you trust and that won’t bullshit you. Hell, even 1 honest appraisal will be worth it. I would not ask 99.2% of women because they either won’t be able to appraise you in the way men will (and you don’t care what women think unless you’re a lesbian :) ) or, more insidiously, they’ll either inflate your MMV because they like you or talk you down if they don’t.

    Then give up the Mr. Big fantasy and find a good guy in your league.

    3) Increase your interactions in the right places with the right behavior.
    Think of chemicals. No matter how reactive and bondable they are they will never bond with another if they are kept in splendid isolation. Get where the type of men in your league are that you like and then start sending out the IOI’s, flirting etc.

    I think that it’s clear that one of the biggest tips that the shy and good girls need to learn is how to FLIRT, send IOI’s and let the man you’re interested in know. Learn how to get in touch with your sensual and sexy side and bask in that energy and give it off. You can be sensual without being slutty and this will have a similar effect on men as the slutty flirting of the slut. Basically, stop being timid wall flowers hiding in the corner and be friendly and flirty to the men you’re interested in.

    Susan, maybe a post on how shy, good girls can learn to send IOI’s, flirt, and be sensual would be good.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I think that it’s clear that one of the biggest tips that the shy and good girls need to learn is how to FLIRT, send IOI’s and let the man you’re interested in know. Learn how to get in touch with your sensual and sexy side and bask in that energy and give it off. You can be sensual without being slutty and this will have a similar effect on men as the slutty flirting of the slut. Basically, stop being timid wall flowers hiding in the corner and be friendly and flirty to the men you’re interested in.

      Susan, maybe a post on how shy, good girls can learn to send IOI’s, flirt, and be sensual would be good.

      Yes, this is Girl Game, and it’s excellent advice. However, like telling guys to get some Game, it’s easier said than done. The truth is that most of the people who are good at approaching and interacting with the opposite sex are extroverts. That’s about 46% of the population.

      It seems to me that rather than expecting the other 54% to morph into cocky flirts, it makes sense to think instead on how to either get introverts to be “seen” by extroverts, or to get introverts to get better at interacting with one another. The majority of the population is introverted and restricted in sociosexuality. What we need is a new mating paradigm for those people.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I can’t help thinking our biology wants to break us just to spite our intelligence……..somewhere someone is laughing there asses off no doubt.

    Nature is a bitch Indeed.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Good to see you. That’s my theory with some of these guys that marry well below their SMV, that they intend on hitting the hotties outside the marriage and perhaps keep the lower SMV as the life partner in some way or other. I’ll echo the advice you’ve given in my next comment.

    I actually cosign this. With very, very few exceptions (I mean it also happens that some women don’t age well, or don’t photograph well and some hot men have weird tastes or they being so hot place beauty at the lowest when picking a wife but this are rare cases) men are marrying a high MMV with low SMV that will look the other way when they get their variety fill with other hotties.

    PS
    The superman guy is Tom Welling and his wife was a model like him Jamie White they are actually the same SMV the thing is he played Superman with the make up and wardrobe he looks higher but out in the street they are just another couple: http://www.fanpix.net/1733293/010221014/jamie-white-and-tom-welling-picture.html
    And from my days as a Smallville fan and stalker I know that he adores her, they had a crisis on their marriage a couple of years ago and the guy was doing a “sad Keanu” for months, glad they recovered from it, it seems like.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I know nothing of Tom Welling and Jamie White but after checking them out on Google images, I think their SMV is similar. He’s very femme, very much a pretty boy. She looks “harder” – they complement one another well, IMO.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    Here is the picture that I based my comparison of them on and you can see the mismatch in looks:

    http://brusimm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Tom-Welling-and-wife-Jamie-White.jpg

    Also, I would add that part of a man’s SMV is his fame, charisma, status, etc. and not just his looks–think of average-looking or even ugly rock stars getting laid like, well, rock stars for the extreme example.

    That said, here’s a picture where she looks hotter and not like such a mismatch:

    http://students.kennesaw.edu/~ccj4102/tomwellingwife.jpg

    So, based on the first picture it seems like a mismatch whereas in the 2nd one not.

  • Mike C

    For the record I know that a man that doesn’t have many picks of women is more likely to take whatever is offered. But there are men out there that will rather orbit a 7 than accept an honest approach of a 5, even if they are 5 themselves.

    There are 5 women that are on a repeated, frequent basis approaching 5 men? Maybe things have changed, but I think it is a safe bet that overall women still do very little approaching.

    Couple of observations here. When rating guys, women often try to play it both ways. We know physical appearance is much less important for women (although still important). So you simply cannot “rate a guy” strictly from the distance based on physical appearance because you have no idea whatsoever what other attributes he is bring to the table that might inflate or lower his SMV. Susan and you I think would be the first to admit that women have an entire long laundry list of attraction items beyond just physical appearance, so you really can’t rate a guy just from seeing his physical appearance. I find in many of these discussions, if the intent of the argument is to try and downplay the SMV of the guy, then we’ll focus exclusively on physical appearance, but in the very next breath talk about all the other attraction traits a guy can have. There is no 5 in looks but 7 with other stuff. If the other stuff boosts him, then he is a 7. Full stop.

    They are not taking what they are offering they are downright rejecting the most homely girl for the slight chance the hottie will drop a panty at them one day.

    I’m not making any sort of statement here about what is good or bad or how it should be, but here is the reality. The most homely girl is competing with a high-definition 8-9 pornstar. That is just the reality given how important visual stuff is to guys. Now there are some aspects of real sex that simply cannot be satisfied with porn, and there was some good discussion on that here awhile back, but again and I’m just being honest there is some floor where a guy is just going to say fuck it, I’d rather go back and jackoff to a hot vixen, then put in a ton of effort to try and attract and retain a homely chick.

  • HanSolo

    My succinct advice to women (and men):

    1) Up your value
    2) Demand less
    3) Market yourself

  • Mike C

    Also, I would add that part of a man’s SMV is his fame, charisma, status, etc. and not just his looks–think of average-looking or even ugly rock stars getting laid like, well, rock stars for the extreme example.

    Hahaha…what do they say great minds think alike :) looks like we keep posting basically the same thoughts within minutes.

    That said, here’s a picture where she looks hotter and not like such a mismatch:

    The first link doesn’t work, but in the second I don’t see a huge mismatch. She looks to have a cute face with good facial symmetry.

    I’ll add one thing that can boost a woman’s MMV, but not necessarily SMV, and that is perceived devotion. I think a man is more likely to wife up a woman with lower SMV if he perceives that she values him and the relationship with him as her top priority. Admittedly, this won’t be possible for many women who self-identify with their “empowered independence”

  • Mike C

    HanSolo,

    FWIW, you seem to me like a guy who really has his shit together. Just based on what you’ve written, I suspect you and I had very similar life trajectories. You seem to have internalized many “red pill” concepts very well without getting overly cynical. I think that is one of the toughest balances to find and I think it remains a journey and not a destination.

  • HanSolo

    Mike, the first link didn’t work? I just clicked it and it did for me.

    http://www.brusimm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Tom-Welling-and-wife-Jamie-White.jpg

    I added a www now, let me know if it still doesn’t.

  • Mike C

    When you click on it, it says the image was hotlinked without permission, and no image is there. I didn’t even realize it was possible for someone to set up a webpage that way. I don’t know how the page can know it is from a link somewhere else.

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    Well, thanks. I’m glad you’re posting again. I like the insights and anecdotes you share.

    I think I have some of my shit together. Still trying to get the rest in line. I’m kind of a mixed bag of what I would say are a lot of good qualities and some “anti-game” and low self-esteem qualities that I’m working on bit by bit. I used to be a very faithful Mormon and so was a voluntary virgin to a late age. After repressing my sexuality for so long, I kind of was a bit of a player (rarely in bars, but some online dating, some on the street, and a couple of times on airplanes) in some ways but mostly looking for the one and am now much less of a player and really just want to find a girlfriend to marry and have kids with. I’m not particularly bitter and love women but do get frustrated at times. I’ve probably broken enough hearts too to warrant at least some if not all of the crap I’ve had to endure.

    In terms of success and failure with women I have dated some great women, had some pretty nice flings with others, managed to bungle quite a few (God, I’m cringing as I’m remembering those), gotten shot down a lot by women both hot and not, and am at heart very romantic and that keeps getting me into trouble. I still don’t drink and have never had first-time sex with a women who has had more than 1 or 2 drinks, the majority being 0 drinks, and so I take a bit of pride in that! ;) lol

    Having said that I think that I have a pretty good theoretical understanding of “game” and human nature and give good advice but often don’t follow the advice I’m giving myself as my emotions get the better of me and I become too needy. :) Knowing what to do and doing it are 2 very different things.

    I think we’d enjoy talking further. If you or anyone else would like to write me you can at quantumcastle attt yahoo daught com

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    That’s weird, it works fine for me but I’m using Google Chrome.

    Just do a google search for Jamie White and on the top row you can see some glamorous pics in a black dress (hot) and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th pics on the top row are cute but not that hot.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=jamie-white&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=eYVyUOzOG-K7igL714HYAQ&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1148&bih=627#hl=en&safe=off&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=jamie+white&oq=jamie+white&gs_l=img.3..0l7j0i24l3.4225.4562.0.5021.2.2.0.0.0.0.157.309.0j2.2.0…0.0…1c.1.JhXuNSyyBb4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=82926b3e2fe40ffb&biw=1148&bih=627

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also, I would add that part of a man’s SMV is his fame, charisma, status, etc. and not just his looks–think of average-looking or even ugly rock stars getting laid like, well, rock stars for the extreme example.

    Yes but Smallville was never that big and Tom hasn’t worked on a while, he is the shy reserved type and quite a bookworm, he is not rock star levels of Alphaness for what I can gather he is a great Beta top according to our sources so that is why I considered similar SMV given the extra info, even fan encounters remark that he is not the “look at me I’m so hot”, which is funny most male models I knew were very similar mmm odd that. Maybe they are so used to women hitting on them that they don’t develop game?
    Robert Redford also married homely girls twice any info on that?

    There are 5 women that are on a repeated, frequent basis approaching 5 men? Maybe things have changed, but I think it is a safe bet that overall women still do very little approaching.

    I was surprised too, in this case she played the “casual approach” but it was kind of obvious and some guys at work even told him to make sure he was getting it.
    I got more examples including one were the orbiter got the girl and the girl was not slutting it up au contraire she was quite single for long periods of time, I know crazy talk ,that is one of the reasons I’m growing skeptic people is pairing up in ways manosphere deemed impossible and yet it happens.

    There is no 5 in looks but 7 with other stuff. If the other stuff boosts him, then he is a 7. Full stop.

    Your underestimate my manliness. This guy first conversation at work was “I’m always the rebound guy…” I even asked Badger (back when he still liked HUS) for advice because I felt sorry for him. He doesn’t dress well, he doesn’t have confidence and he cuts his hair terribly, he is very nice overall though but the only game he knows is poker and he plays it with his friends not at work, no display there. I gave him a 5 because he is tall. The girl was thin, short also kind of shy, again she approached him many times he was busy orbiting hottie, I took my maternity leave so I don’t know if hottie gave him something but she was not when I left and he had been around for at least 4 months and nothing had happened yet.

    but again and I’m just being honest there is some floor where a guy is just going to say fuck it, I’d rather go back and jackoff to a hot vixen, then put in a ton of effort to try and attract and retain a homely chick.

    I don’t mind the guy going for porn instead of the real thing, but if this guy goes for crazy real hottie time and time again and doesn’t try to get a chance with someone that actually might want him for real, then you cannot say he is not part of the problem with the disconnect of the SMP can you?

  • HanSolo

    @Royale W. Cheese

    I think that in your case the biggest problem isn’t a mismatch in your value with the guys value. I don’t think you’re holding out for guys that are out of your league. I get the sense you’re trying to be hypogamous in the man’s SMV and isogamous in his MMV.

    I think for you it’s more of a marketing problem in how to get in enough contact with enough suitable men so that it can work out with one of them.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona
  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    Yes but Smallville was never that big and Tom hasn’t worked on a while, he is the shy reserved type and quite a bookworm, he is not rock star levels of Alphaness for what I can gather he is a great Beta top according to our sources so that is why I considered similar SMV given the extra info, even fan encounters remark that he is not the “look at me I’m so hot”, which is funny most male models I knew were very similar mmm odd that. Maybe they are so used to women hitting on them that they don’t develop game?

    Smallville was not huge but it did last for 10 seasons so I think he has a pretty high level of fame amongst women in their, say, 20′s. I’m not a good judge of men’s looks but if you put his hottest pics next to hers he seems a lot hotter to me. She looks like a 7 in her not so hot pics and an 8 in her hot ones. If he has more of the shy, friendly, beta personality then that may not be a big turn-on to the thug-loving women but it would probably be a total panty dropper to the more nice-guy-loving girls. It’s kind of a hard thought experiment to compare if a man has a higher SMV than a woman. Due to his looks (better than hers) and his fame (higher than hers) I still think he has a higher SMV than her and could rack up a ton of casual with hotter women than she was at her prime if he had the inclination to, which he apparently does not. I can’t prove it but that’s my opinion. Feel free to disagree or tell me what you don’t agree with or what I’m missing. :)

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    Don’t remember who shared this, maybe Wudang or even Mike C, about the male model friend who wasn’t charismatic but really good looking and didn’t have to do anything and women would throw themselves at him, more than the two other guys in the group that had quite good game.

  • Mike C

    I think I have some of my shit together. Still trying to get the rest in line. I’m kind of a mixed bag of what I would say are a lot of good qualities and some “anti-game” and low self-esteem qualities that I’m working on bit by bit.

    I think it helps to realize you never really “get there”. Don’t beat yourself up about “anti-Game”. It’s funny…ever since I got into this stuff I can’t help but always have some aspect of strategizing with social interaction, and even now sometimes I’ll screw up and slip back to behavior pattern, or words, and know I had the wrong frame. That shit you learned as a kid and teenager runs deep. It is simply very difficult to unlearn it all. But you are 99% of the way home to be introspective enough to realize it. Most people of both sexes aren’t even aware of all the wrong stuff they do.

    I’m not particularly bitter and love women but do get frustrated at times. I’ve probably broken enough hearts too to warrant at least some if not all of the crap I’ve had to endure.

    I know its cliche, but you’ll probably meet that right woman when you least expect it. Just keep on trucking.

    Having said that I think that I have a pretty good theoretical understanding of “game” and human nature and give good advice but often don’t follow the advice I’m giving myself as my emotions get the better of me and I become too needy. :) Knowing what to do and doing it are 2 very different things.

    Yup, coaching and playing in real-time are two different Games. The emotions and neediness are the hardest part. It is so funny because those get most highly triggered around women you really like. It is pretty trivial to stay indifferent, aloof with amused mastery with a girl you could care less about the outcome but the one you really want triggers those emotions. I interviewed for a job recently in my company…essentially a switch of departments to a much better fit. I wanted the job so bad. I absolutely nailed the first group interview. Just killed it, and got invited to the second interview which was with a very high ranking executive (and this is a Fortune 500 company). About 10 minutes before the interview, I could feel the nervousness and anxiety coming over me. I did my best to calm my nerves but I walked in on edge. During the interview I actually felt sweat drop off my forehead onto my nose. He cut the interview short from the allotted time, and I knew I was toast. I think if I had been able to go in with a totally detached, indifferent frame, and simply display confidence in my skill set, I would have gotten it. But sometimes in the moment, getting control over your emotional state is just so damn hard.

    I think we’d enjoy talking further. If you or anyone else would like to write me you can at quantumcastle attt yahoo daught com

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    Good advice in your blog post. Recommended for the single girls, especially the shy or “beta” types.

  • Mike C

    Don’t remember who shared this, maybe Wudang or even Mike C, about the male model friend who wasn’t charismatic but really good looking and didn’t have to do anything and women would throw themselves at him, more than the two other guys in the group that had quite good game.

    That was me. This guy was unbelievable looking or at least that is what I kept hearing from various women (I find it hard to judge guys). I’m 6’3″ and I remember he was slightly taller than me so he was probably around 6’4″. He was muscular, but not overly so to that bodybuilder level that I think turns some women off. FWIW, I think this varies across women, but if there is one physical trait I’d zone in on it would be broad shoulders, especially in conjunction with a narrow waist. That should to waist ratio is something that I think does “wet some panties” for at least some women. I’ve had a lot of muscle mass for many years now, but I’ve noticed that the female attention only really ramps up massively if you’ve got a low bodyfat and smaller waistline to go along with it. This guy had that look plus he had that square jaw, great cheekbone, great hair thing going.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona

    I think Alice (Alice Greene) from Twilight is totally hot! And she’s even hotter with long hair.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hO2XUwRNp7Q/TsE-WjFiLhI/AAAAAAAAAjc/Oj3Ksl3wYTk/s1600/Ashley-Greene-New-Long-Hairstyles-Ideas.jpg

    Not to sound too gay but YUM! lol

  • HanSolo

    That’s Ashley Greene.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Feel free to disagree or tell me what you don’t agree with or what I’m missing. :)

    I think at the very least having a SMV comes with certain behavior and personality traits. Compare Sassy with any other commenter and you see that she is not only is pretty she talks pretty and exudes sexuality. Is similar to the sexy ugly just backwards the cute Beta. In the case of Mr Welling I’m basing on fandom reports. I do have fandom reports of Alpha celebrities, like lets say Vin Diezel (he is actually banned in a couple of discos in my country the guy treats all women as hookers and gets worst when he drinks ) so I do have some more info to consider this. But the fact that they both meet as working models should at least indicate that they meet at a similar SMV and MMV, YMMV

    In other news my Venezuelan Chavez won the elections for the ones that are paying attention.

  • HanSolo

    @Mike C

    That sucks about the 2nd interview but don’t take it too hard.

    As for the stuff we learn as a kid and teenager running deep and being hard to change, I agree. I also think a good deal of it is genetic and influenced by the hormones at various stages in the womb. I think I’m naturally a pleasant but shy and quiet guy in a group. I’ve been that as long as I can remember and even as a baby my mom says I didn’t cry hardly at all. In a tribal setting I would have been the cautious one that didn’t go picking dumb fights when older and wouldn’t have blown our hiding by crying right when the lion or other tribe comes by and though I would have participated in battle I think I would have survived to fight another day. I definitely wouldn’t have been the alpha chief. Probably an advisor, capable of leading if really called upon when the chief was killed but not my natural inclination to try and become chief by either intrigue or violence. lol

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I think I’m naturally a pleasant but shy and quiet guy in a group. I’ve been that as long as I can remember and even as a baby my mom says I didn’t cry hardly at all.

    Yeah personality is a chemistry cocktail and babies come with many traits already. I learned this from my hears working as a preeschool teacher assistant with my mom and from the casting during modeling. The casting agents when looking for babies for commercials tested how they reacted to strangers, lights, strong noises it was amazing you could have babies that couldn’t even make it out of the waiting area without crying and causing all sorts of problems, in their defense they spent a lot of time there my guess the producers did it un purpose to filter the less patient kids. And you could see all sorts of babies the ones that could do well with lights but the noises broke them, the ones great with strangers but that hated pets, the ones that were too shy, the quiet ones and the ones that just loved everything and everyone interestingly enough the “charismatic” babies had an edge over the merely cute ones to get the job because they rather work with lights and colors (and really is hard not to be cute as a baby) than deal with a cute baby with a bad temper and this traits stuck around for a long time for what I learned. Just adding more info.

  • szopen

    @herrkaiser

    “The idea that genes are controlling our conscience behavior and overriding our will is a reflection of the growth of determinism

    It’s not that they are “controlling”. It’s just that genes have their role, by limiting your prospects, or by increasing risk of certain behaviours or outcomes. Just as with the “promiscuous” gene, not all people having it will be actually cheaters: just it increases the risk, e.g. in a group of 100 person having this gene there will be more cheaters than in group of 100 people not having this gene.

    http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/09/11/biological-basis-of-monogamy-cheating-bonding.htm

    The same about “suicide” genes: they just increase your risk of suicide in certain circumstances, because you are more vulnerable if you lack protection given by certain genes.

  • szopen

    @darsh

    I’ve never really liked Italian for some reason. It sounds so… “ugly”.,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IohE5IlUICk

    I think every language can be beautifull when spoken with love :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve never really liked Italian for some reason. It sounds so… “ugly”.,

      Really? I think it’s the most beautiful sounding language of all.

  • Sai

    @HerrKaiser
    “In any event, the West will die and China will rise; the West will taste some of the bitterness it has been dishing out for 500 years; I cannot say I look forward to it, but also cannot say it is unjust.”
    Sometimes I think about that sort of justice too… I just wish I wasn’t around to pay for it. Maybe it’s like civilians of (your favorite battle here) who really should leave town before the other army shows up.

    @Anacaona
    When my mother told me about that stupid show I didn’t believe her. Ironically, that channel used to be called “The Learning Channel.”

    I read your other post. I have no big-mouthed friends or relatives, so I guess it’s off to the shrink (Nov. 9). (I’m not UNFRIENDLY… just cold.) When I make some real money I’m going to do like some other posters here have said and move, because at my SMV all I can get is one of the many smelly uncultured thugs. I think I need to work out. (I’ve tried the hair thing, but people with my sort of face are always advised to either get it all in their eyes or chop it off, and I know enough to not go down that path.)

    @HanSolo
    “Susan, maybe a post on how shy, good girls can learn to send IOI’s, flirt, and be sensual would be good.”
    Yeah, how does this work? I thought sensual WAS slutty.

  • szopen

    @jp

    Some people are just punishers:

    So I am a punisher lol :) But I don’t suit most of the description – I am not disciplined, and I hate stress. I really hate myself when I am going to fight against two blokes when they put p a loud music at 2am and I always hope someone else will do it. But somehow it’s never the others, and it’s always had to be me :-(

    AAAND Mrs. Susan Welsh is from Boston? My relatives live there. And they are enforcers – one of them work in police (or maybe worked? It may be he retired). By pure chance, one my cousin in Poland also was a policeman (now he is starting for prosecutor) and second works in jail. A family of punishers :)

  • szopen

    @escoffier
    I’ve read the article about the elite and you know, it seems to me that a similar pattern is in a lot of other countries. At moments like that i think that you would really gain a lot if you would read more about history of my country.

    A lesson is that once people get rich and powerful, they (on average) tend to associate their well-being with the interests of the country. What’s good for them, is good for the country. What’s bad for them, is bad for the country, and to hell with all the common people.

  • Abbot

    “Good girls marrying former players …”

    aka winnn…..nning

    Bow to the king!

  • Abbot

    “I picture a rather bizarre combination of behaviors that would read as false, and perhaps unstable”

    Like how some women play the sex and marriage markets in order to achieve their self entitled “empowerment” goals

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “In the case of PUA, the goal is P&D to maximize N, while in the case of MGTOW, the goal is N of zero to maximize peace and contentment. ”

    You really love very narrow definitions – not a bad thing, likely had something to do with you achieving the Wharton MBA, and fascinating to watch. You’re prose to my poetry; you see black and white, I rainbows of color. It’s SJ vs NP in MyersBriggs land.

    In this case, both PUA and MGTOW can also (in addition to your narrow definition) be understood as corrections to excessive and premature oneitis.

    PUA>1, MGTOW<1.

    Both fight the excessive pedestalization/supplication of the culture.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In this case, both PUA and MGTOW can also (in addition to your narrow definition) be understood as corrections to excessive and premature oneitis.

      That may be, but the outcome objectives are very different, and neither results in being part of a pair.

  • HanSolo

    @Anacaona 396

    LOL. I loved the scene you painted of the baby models and auditions. :D

  • pvw

    @Susan, thanks for clarifying. It is an interesting breakdown, and shows two different extremes:

    2-3 religious or introverted prude types: women I know in this group were lucky in that they were part of a subculture where dating was expected to lead to marriage, and N was 0 until marriage. It was all pretty easy–the men were there, they just had to pick one, so these mothers can’t begin to fathom what it is like for their daughters today.

    As for the others, it is quite clear, mom won notwithstanding her slutty past (hard core) or husband stealer, so what will she tell her daughter? So she doesn’t want to say anything…or she pretends nothing might ever happen….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      As for the others, it is quite clear, mom won notwithstanding her slutty past (hard core) or husband stealer, so what will she tell her daughter? So she doesn’t want to say anything…or she pretends nothing might ever happen….

      Exactly. This raises an interesting question. What is the effect of youthful promiscuity on parenting ability later in life?

  • Desiderius

    To put it another way, there’s been a concerted sociocultural effort to restrict/shame male lust (healthy societies likely need to restrict alpha male lust somewhat, but the apex fallacy led to the restriction of all male lust, and betas didn’t have enough to spare) and female attachment (to give her time to get the career established, fulfilling her role as the quasi-son in smaller families that didn’t have an actual son), so too much was left riding on limerence.

    Both PUA and MGTOW are inexact efforts to remedy the imbalance.

  • Desiderius

    Oops, not attachment, love. It’s funny to see the love of the alpha females explode when they’re around the special needs kids and they’re actually allowed to express it. Definitely being restricted from somewhere when it comes to normal guys.

  • HanSolo

    @Sai

    “Yeah, how does this work? I thought sensual WAS slutty.”

    To me, sensual is more along the lines of being in touch with your senses and enjoying them, in this case your sexuality and sexual desires. The girl who gives off a controlled sensual vibe is in the sweet spot for awakening the man’s lust while not setting off his slut-dread alarms. Kind of like the soft light around sunrise instead of the noonday sun.

    Slutty is more the indiscriminate indulgence of sex. That can happen for the sensual glutton but also for the ego-validation binger.

    In some strict religions and cultures any sexual stimulation outside of marriage or prescribed channels is forbidden and so the sensual often gets lumped in with the slutty. If you’re not familiar with it do some research about the anti-masturbation craze of a former era.

  • HanSolo

    @Desiderius

    In this case, both PUA and MGTOW can also (in addition to your narrow definition) be understood as corrections to excessive and premature oneitis.

    PUA>1, MGTOW<1.

    Both fight the excessive pedestalization/supplication of the culture.

    Good point.

  • HanSolo

    @ Desiderius 411

    Great point about the need to somewhat reign in the alphas (and I would add, the definite need to reign in the badboys) which acts like a nuclear bomb on the betas who never needed the treat-women-well advice. The women being shamed out of loving and attaching before ~30 is also a key observation. Not that all women are listening but enough have to shift the marriage age up.

    And, yes, too much riding on limerance.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…The mothers of your original group of girls…

    “2-3 religious or introverted prude types
    3-4 hardcore reformed sluts
    2 women whose husbands left first wives and children to make family #2 with them”

    This was out of a total group of how many?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      This was out of a total group of how many?

      About 10 or so, including myself. This may have something to do with geography and also SES group (UMC). The prude types were either very WASPy or devoutly Catholic. Re the reformed sluts, a couple enjoyed describing their own youthful exploits – one woman was part of a self-named group of women at Harvard that called themselves “Wild Childs.” As I mentioned, two snagged high status men away from families – these women were 45 and their husbands were 65 and 70!

      I assume the remaining women were basically like me. Neither virginal nor hardcore promiscuous in youth, went off the market for good around 25.

  • HanSolo

    @Sai

    Continuing the sun analogy, my shy, good-girl type of friends are more like the cold night, providing little or no flirting and sensual radiation. Yeah, the sun is there somewhere but the man has no idea and just sees cold disinterest.

    In some cases, these women are like the earth, at a life-sustaining distance from the sun and just need to turn things around to let the men feel their warmth.

    In others, it’s more like they’re Neptune and the noonday sun there is very weak because they’ve absorbed so much sex is bad messaging that even in marriage they feel too guilty to turn up the heat.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Mike C, great to have you back!

    JutR: You are absolutely right—for some reason, I gravitate towards the extremes and the drama. FWIW, I’m willing to practice what I preach, and I do actually believe that a man in today’s world is frequently better off working the extreme ends of the spectrum (as the Great One said: “So you want me to be half monk, half hitman”) and developing “spikes” than trying to occupy the middle and play the game the traditional way.

    Your notes about yourself and your friends resonated. It also struck me that the disciplined self-improvement aspect of MGTOW was, perhaps inadvertently, developing SMV capital by making a man stronger, more self-reliant, armed with well-developed and interesting hobbies, less emotionally needy, etc. What do you think of this…?

    Susan: yes, yes. I agree; integration would have to be thoughtful or the guy could come off as a maniac (!).

    Desi: great points—PUA and MGTOW are both gaining traction because they are, ultimately, adaptations to serious changes in the mating market.

  • Sassy6519

    Oh, come on, that’s ridiculous. Are you saying that virtually every woman in your country is a slut? Do you live in the United States? How do you define a slut? Is a slut any woman who touched a penis prior to meeting the man she marries?

    Your use of the term “multipenis” seems to imply that any woman who’s number is great than one is a slut in your view. You realize that that’s ridiculous, don’t you?

    I’m not arguing in favor of promiscuity. Then again, I don’t care enough to argue against it. But characterizing a whole country full of woman as slutty carousel riders is not just wrong-headed, but frankly disturbing.

    A-Fucking-Men!

    Bravo!

  • Just1X

    @Susan
    “while in the case of MGTOW, the goal is N of zero to maximize peace and contentment.”

    MGTOW – Man Going THEIR Own Way

    MY Own Way is to make sure that if N is going to equal one, it is a one worth making the requisite accomodations for. Now given the rarity of ‘teh one’, it might well be that N remains at zero, but it isn’t a requirement of MGTOW. MGTOW means keeping teh wimminz in perspective in your life and having a sufficiently good lifestyle to make one optional. Would seem to be a good concept for women too, even if they are (arguably) more relationship oriented.

    My latest lesson is that even if you find ‘teh one’ it doesn’t mean that things are going to work out; c’est l’amour. VDM

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      it might well be that N remains at zero, but it isn’t a requirement of MGTOW. MGTOW means keeping teh wimminz in perspective in your life and having a sufficiently good lifestyle to make one optional. Would seem to be a good concept for women too, even if they are (arguably) more relationship oriented.

      I like this concept, and I agree it is a useful concept for women too. In fact, not a bad way to live one’s life at all as a general rule of thumb!

      I have the sense, though, that many MGTOWs have sworn off women, or don’t intend to put themselves out there in any way. Perhaps they would be receptive if a woman took all the risk upfront and made herself available – but that’s not the quite thing as viewing a relationship as optional, is it?

  • Cooper

    “What is the effect of youthful promiscuity on parenting ability later in life?”

    ‘Do as I say, not as I *did* parenting’

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Happy Thanksgiving, Canuck!

      Do as I say, not as I *did* parenting’

      This would be OK with me, if it were honest. At least it’s active. What I’ve seen instead is mothers awkwardly avoiding all conversations that might lead to questions about their own history. BTW, this also happens around drugs. I’ve heard parents state that they avoid the topic because they did a lot of drugs as a kid and turned out OK, and they don’t want to admit that to their kids.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I agree that just saying they need girl game isn’t helpful in giving specifics but just as many men don’t realize they need guy game many women don’t realize they do either.

    I think that some further ideas on how to flirt and show IOI’s in the initial stages and how it’s received by men would be useful. Once more of these contacts are made and appropriate filtering is applied then your list of 25 tools to get a boyfriend come in. But for so many shy girls, they’re just never getting in the “pipeline” at all and so none of the later advice can be implemented.

    In talking with my shyer female friends it is very interesting how they tell me that they don’t know hot to flirt and feel that being somewhat sensual would be perceived as sensual. Regarding flirting I told them simple things like smiling, making more eye contact. About being sensual but not slutty I told them that balance was key and they were too far to the frigid side of the spectrum (these were more amongst the strict religious girls) and to get more of the mentality that sex is good in the right setting (marriage for them) and to allow themselves to feel a bit of that so that it would subconsciously be transmitted through their body language to the men around them.

    I think that both of these factors are important and further discussion about them would be very useful for the shyer women reading here:

    1) Get in touch with your sensual side without being slutty so that some sexual energy is radiated.

    2) Specific actions that can aid in flirting, showing IOI’s, and build the comfort and confidence to gradually do it more and more naturally and not feel awkward.

    A key thing to remember is that in many cases just some slight improvement can make a big enough difference in the outcome. Just the simple thing of smiling more could make the girl seem approachable to that beta guy who is scared as hell of being seen as a molester or being ego-nuked if he approaches.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I think that both of these factors are important and further discussion about them would be very useful for the shyer women reading here:

      1) Get in touch with your sensual side without being slutty so that some sexual energy is radiated.

      2) Specific actions that can aid in flirting, showing IOI’s, and build the comfort and confidence to gradually do it more and more naturally and not feel awkward.

      A key thing to remember is that in many cases just some slight improvement can make a big enough difference in the outcome. Just the simple thing of smiling more could make the girl seem approachable to that beta guy who is scared as hell of being seen as a molester or being ego-nuked if he approaches.

      I agree that this might be useful – I’ll work on a post or two.

  • Cooper

    Nice Desi, #411

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Susan.

    Where did you get your figures on introverts being half of the population ? I thought the number was 20%

    And is there a difference between introversion and shyness ?

    There must be.

    As to how to get women to talk to men, the most obvious solution is staring right at you :

    The internet.

    Whatever else may be said about HUS, men and women are talking to one another in the comment threads. So the question is how to seduce a person online then. Can it be done ?

    Yes.

    I’ve met women online that knew just what to say, to make me go gaga. They were both mystics in their own way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      Where did you get your figures on introverts being half of the population ? I thought the number was 20%

      From this link on MBTI types, just added up the Population Breakdown:

      http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/MBTI.htm

      And is there a difference between introversion and shyness ?

      There must be.

      Definitely, but I believe both result in a lower likelihood of initiating contact with strangers.

      Whatever else may be said about HUS, men and women are talking to one another in the comment threads. So the question is how to seduce a person online then. Can it be done ?

      Yes.

      Agreed, it can definitely be done, but there are two drawbacks. The most obvious is logistical – what are the odds that you are “falling for” someone who is nearby? The other is that the very thing that makes sending IOIs hard – the risk of rejection in person – is eliminated online. We’ve got a sort of Cyrano de Bergerac thing going on here. It’s a start, and certainly things can grow from there if the logistics are favorable.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    “What is the effect of youthful promiscuity on parenting ability later in life?”

    My parents both had N=0 but they almost never talked about sex or relationships so it has the same effect as the former slut who keeps her mouth shut.

    Now how their past affects their attitudes and behavior as parents is a very interesting thing. Though my mom never talked about things much I always picked up a very prudish vibe like her clearing her throat if a bra commercial or sex scene came on tv. When I was 7 I was scared as hell when I kissed the girl down the street for 1 second in kissing tag and that little hussy told my brother and he gleefully threatened to tell my mom.

  • Mike C

    Susan

    This really confirms the fears and resentment that low N women are expressing.

    I’m sure. Of course, that dynamic is just the flipside of the coin to the “nice”/”good” guy who gets little to no romantic/sexual interest but is told what “a great guy he is” and how he’ll make some girl a great boyfriend just not the girl doing the talking. For both sexes, assuming a “quality” person with good character, the next step is to bolster the items directly related to sexual attraction for the other sex. I’ve got no patience, empathy, or understanding for anyone male or female who isn’t willing to do some of that work especially when they are told explicitly what they need to work on.

    Not only do the sluts wind up doing “just fine” in the mating sweepstakes, they often pair off with fellow high N types who view their N as rounding error. Their long-term prospects for happiness and fidelity in marriage may be poor, but at the time of marriage, it looks like they’ve hit the jackpot with some sexy alpha type.

    But this is perception thing right? Shouldn’t a low N woman not be jealous or resentful of a high N woman getting a high N man that she presumably doesn’t want anyways. I’ve been told repeatedly here that many low N women aren’t attracted to high N men.

    Also, there’s a huge cognitive dissonance factor among men (hamster?) when this happens.

    Oh yeah. You bet. I’d say huge is an understatement. I’d say colossal or titanic dissonance. On a core, deep-seated, visceral level the guy is acutely bothered by the woman’s high N. It is always there like a rock in your shoe. But on the flipside, hey the guy has a relationship or is getting regular sex and is out of the game of frustrating high failure approaching and all that entails. He says to himself “I’ve got to get over this….I don’t want to be back out there trying to meet someone else”. Then yes, the male hamster kicks in and tries to rationalize all the great stuff she has (in many cases probably true) that he simply needs to “get over it”. In some cases, he’ll come to terms with it. See ADBG I believe. In other cases, he won’t. See Jesus Mahoney. In some cases, to avoid the problem he’ll simply not want to know. What you don’t know can’t eat away at you. See Jesus Mahoney Part 2. There is simply no getting around the fact that for men a woman’s previous sexual history is going to enter his psyche, and then he’ll toss that into the stew with everything else to try and make a decision. It plays on so many different mental aspects. For example, just one is that the higher the woman’s N, the higher the probability that she has in fact had better than you:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/10/shes-probably-had-better.html

    But then if she is hot, and sweet, and fun, and feminine but with a N=30, what do you do? Are you really going to kick her to the curb for a hypothetical plain, masculine, low N woman? I realize that N isn’t correlated with those other things, but I’m just setting up one possible set of choices a guy may have. So yeah, high N is going to bother most guys in terms of LTR or wifing her up, but when the rubber hits the road, and the guy has to make that call, most guys will find some way to get over it. I think only a minority of guys will pull the plug. I think commenter Jason 773 fell into this camp, but again remember he is a super high SMV male who has the luxury of being more discriminating. Realize that the higher the male SMV, the lower his opportunity cost is on passing on any particular woman. The lower the SMV male, if he skips a meal on the table, he might be less sure when he is going to eat again.

    In the end, high N women may be more successful in attracting and keeping men, regardless of men’s desire for low sexual experience in a partner.

    If she brings “hotness”/high physical appearance and playful femininity, absolutely yes. In the final overall calculus, those 2 items trump N for most guys.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      I am happy to see you here. You have earned the designation Commenter Emeritus. :)

      But this is perception thing right? Shouldn’t a low N woman not be jealous or resentful of a high N woman getting a high N man that she presumably doesn’t want anyways. I’ve been told repeatedly here that many low N women aren’t attracted to high N men.

      We see two attractive people pairing off, and we may assume that both are sexually experienced. The reformed player married the reformed slut. Sure, their risk of divorce may be higher, but it’s still a bitter pill to swallow for the wedding guest or bridesmaid who spent college and after hooking up smart with nothing to show for it. This is the biggest problem: the 80% are having more difficulty getting together. The low N woman doesn’t want that guy, necessarily, but she wants a guy, and the guy she wants is not approaching.

      If she brings “hotness”/high physical appearance and playful femininity, absolutely yes. In the final overall calculus, those 2 items trump N for most guys.

      That’s fair enough – it is what it is. But it’s an apex fallacy of its own – I have known very, very few women who are both hot and playfully feminine.

      I have one question – when you say hot, do you mean overtly displaying sexuality? It seems to me that men distinguish between pretty or even beautiful and hot. For example, I’ve seen pics of PUAs with women they label “10″s who are clearly 6s when you take away the makeup and cleavage. This is often the case in pics of Mystery or Tucker Max. The women have a very slutty vibe, and would not compete successfully against a “natural” 10 who turns heads wearing sweat pants and no makeup.

  • HanSolo

    In 435 I meant to say that my female friends feel that being somewhat sensual would be perceived as slutty.

    (Note to self, read over my comments before posting)

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – “Ted D is a good example of a man who’s wife has a higher N that’s roughly 3x higher than his (I don’t think she was overly slutty though) and that bothered him a bit but he values that she’s good in bed, he has no doubt she’ll be faithful and overall he really loves her.”

    For the record, her N is not x3 of mine. My N=4. Her N is higher but not x3. I of course value that she is good in bed, but that isn’t what attracted me to her in the first place, and certainly not why I married her. She was faithful in her first marriage to a guy that cheated, repeatedly. Despite her past, her morals and ethics align pretty closely with my own, at least when it comes to our children. She is far more liberal on her views of sexuality in general than I am, but she appreciates my POV and respects it in terms of showing our children a united front, so to speak.

    Her past still bothers me to an extent, and I don’t expect that to change honestly. I had to decide if I could live with that discomfort to be with her, and in the end her other qualities outweigh it. We talked about this at great length before we got engaged, and she made accommodations for me to help. She told me everything (not in great detail of course!) in her past and why they happened. Understanding her mental state during that time in her life helped me a great deal to “get over” how I felt. Her family life really sucked, and her mother (who married 4 times!) did nothing to help her grow up with a healthy view of sexuality. She also does not bring up her past so as not to rub salt in the wounds. She honestly believes that getting pregnant may have saved her life, as at the time she was heading in a downward spiral and once she realized that she was now responsible for another life (because she is morally against abortion) she straightened herself out. She also married, but she fully admits she didn’t marry for “love” but to be able to support her child. In fact, they agreed to marry so she could get on the father’s health insurance for prenatal care and delivery. There was no love at all, but at least they both worked together to support the child (and then children). The problem is, since there was no love from the start, he had little incentive to remain faithful or to actually work on the marriage, which eventually ended when he moved away for work and instead of buying a new house, told her they were through.

    When I say it wasn’t any easy process, I’m not kidding. I spent a few months seriously considering walking away. But despite her early behavior, she spent over a decade “behaving” and goes out of her way to try and help me to feel comfortable and secure in our relationship. Her truthfulness and willingness to work with me instead of being all “butt hurt” by my reaction went a LONG way towards me building that sense of security with her. It wasn’t and isn’t easy, but knowing that she puts in the effort tells me she is committed to making it work. As a 42 year old man, my chances of finding someone with a lower N that is this committed to me are pretty slim, so I went ahead and took my chances knowing about the possibly increased risks. But, being an already once divorced guy marrying a divorced women, our “chances” suck regardless. We’ll simply be happy breaking the odds. ;-)

    Iggles – “Your guess is as good as mine! I don’t understand why anyone would obsess about people they presumably can’t stand and/or don’t want to be with (i.e., “slut”-haters continually ranting about sluts).”

    It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole basket. ;-)

    Megaman – “Heh, the Freudian in me suspects a love/hate relationship with the exotic, mysterious, young, possibly good-looking promiscuous female…”

    Or how about: I’d rather my daughter not BECOME one of those exotic, mysterious, young, good-looking promiscuous female’s?

    “The better question, and far less easy to answer, is: why do they express their anger about it HERE?”

    Because presumably SOME of the young women reading here haven’t started riding random guys yet, and my hope is that perhaps it will scare them off of it before they do.

    Not to mention that I often feel like the counter-balance to commenters like yourself, PJ, and Tom. Why is it OK for them to be so pro-casual but Abbot and I are somehow the bad guys?

    PVW – “I’m reading now is: “yes, she is/was a slut, but she was great in bed, and now, she is a great girlfriend, the best I have ever had. So I stayed with her, married her, etc.”

    Sure, there are others who say they felt duped and the marriage suffered as a result, and there is one story from some time ago about someone who called off the wedding, but the other type of story makes me skeptical. For every one story saying a man would mind or should mind, I wonder how many stories are of the other sort, “I dealt with it.”

    Why are you skeptical? As someone who “dealt with it” I can assure you that I’m not nor do I expect to ever be “over it” completely. There is and will always be a nag of doubt. I will probably spend many years being overly cautious because of it. And, had I known about the Red Pill prior to starting my current relationship, I might not have pursued it at all.

    Now all that being said, the Red Pill has also pushed me to lose some weight and get into shape. Of course this is great for my long-term health, but the truth is on some level this is also a bit of insurance for my mental wellbeing. Stepping it up in the looks department gives me more options, and having those options allows me some peace of mind. I’m also working on adjusting traits and behaviors to maintain my current marriage so that whatever extra risks I took on by marrying her are minimized as much as possible. In short, having to “deal with it” means stepping up my game to overcome the added risks.

    It is something I do NOT want my boys to have to endure themselves. It isn’t a pleasant to have to frame my relationship in these terms.

    Ion – “That’s one example. She did brag about being great in bed (with this guy she waited til 3rd date at least, I know of several married men and one night stands on her list).”

    Wow. I guess that guy really doesn’t respect himself at all.

  • Abbot

    “all of these women were unavailable to speak with their daughters honestly about sex and relationships.”

    The product is wayward women and the feminist-cult mind-ambushers await their prey

    “the effect of youthful promiscuity on parenting ability later in life”

    Men are to blame for choosing the wrong mother for their children (a sign of extreme failure among men)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    I think at the very least having a SMV comes with certain behavior and personality traits. Compare Sassy with any other commenter and you see that she is not only is pretty she talks pretty and exudes sexuality.

    I’m just really in touch with my sensuality/sexuality. I know where I stand, on the SMV totem pole. I’m not afraid to go after what I want, and I’m not afraid of voicing my opinions. Men often tell me in person that I’m refreshingly honest. I don’t cause drama and I’m not overly emotional. That can have its drawbacks as well, but I’m working on striking a balance there.

    I think men are able to tell that I’m a high SMV/MMV woman who hasn’t abused her power. I’m not cavorting about with every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I’m picky, but I do ultimately value monogamy and relationships. My goal isn’t to dupe anyone into being with me.

    I’ll be honest in admitting that I did break up with my boyfriend this past week. I saw some red flags, and I also noticed huge compatibility issues between us that recently appeared. He’s a great guy, but I don’t think he and I are meant to be together long-term.

    Sometimes I hate being so picky, but perhaps it will increase my chances of being truly satisfied with my dating choices in the future.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted D

    Thanks for correcting me and sorry for the misrepresentation.

    I hope my overall impression of the dynamic wasn’t too far off though, that her past bothered you but her other great qualities made you decide that it was better to be with her than without.

  • Mike C

    Yes, this is Girl Game, and it’s excellent advice. However, like telling guys to get some Game, it’s easier said than done. The truth is that most of the people who are good at approaching and interacting with the opposite sex are extroverts. That’s about 46% of the population.

    It seems to me that rather than expecting the other 54% to morph into cocky flirts, it makes sense to think instead on how to either get introverts to be “seen” by extroverts, or to get introverts to get better at interacting with one another. The majority of the population is introverted and restricted in sociosexuality. What we need is a new mating paradigm for those people.

    I basically agree. Business opportunity there? :)

    That said, again, a lot of stuff in life isn’t easy. I’m an introvert although I am an ISTJ and apparently according to the sites we are the introvert type most able to mimic being extroverted. For me personally, I just realized I simply was going to have to learn how to be more outgoing. Now my fiancee and I are both introverted homebodies so I am “out of practice” but if I were single I’d simply have to force myself to go back into that mode. Consider that introvert guys probably have it harder because they are the ones that still have to muster up the courage to make the initial approach and/or start a conversation while the introvert girl once approached simply has to display some basic interest if she genuinely feels it. And really some of it isn’t rocket science. Like HS said, smile at the guy, give him sparkly eye contact, get some kino involved….touch his forearm, laugh at a joke, ask him questions about himself. If you are interested….well….for God’s sake act like you interested. If you like a guy and are interacting that isn’t the time to be reserved and aloof and cold. DO NOT BE ALOOF. That does not work to secure interest from a guy. It is even 1000x worse with a very beta introvert guy who is going to equate your aloofness with total disinterest.

  • Just1X

    @Susan

    well…MGTOWs are unlikely to be bothered with actively looking for a woman, as you say.

    I suspect that it makes them hard to show IOIs to effectively, I have heard rumours to that effect.

    I’m just saying that refusing women in general a pedestal isn’t the same thing as swearing to a monk like life. Everyone gets to define Their Own Way after all.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just1X

      I’m just saying that refusing women in general a pedestal isn’t the same thing as swearing to a monk like life. Everyone gets to define Their Own Way after all.

      Fair enough. Personally, I love the idea of MGTOW being open to future opportunities for women who qualify.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted D

    Thanks for sharing in 443 and elsewhere. I think your experience provides interesting insight to both men and women.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    Sorry about the break-up but hope it’s for the best.

    I appreciate your comments here. Thanks.

    Could you maybe give some advice on how the shyer girls could show better IOI’s and flirt?

    Could you offer some thoughts on how the girls that are maybe not sufficiently in touch with their sensuality and sexuality could get more in touch without becoming or coming across as slutty? I think that’s one of their fears.

  • Abbot

    ” guys who “take what they can get,” the more likely they’ll spin it over time – good-looking girl, her high N must be considered in light of the level of interest she got from men, lots of women have a higher N, etc. And of course, they all reinforce this for one another.”

    That is the vicious slut cycle and it is exactly what is going on. Women and feminist happily interpret it as men not caring enough to care. Oh but they do. Like a virus that the body suppresses but never actually kills, once the immunity weakens it resurfaces – like chicken pox that later rears up as shingles.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – no worries mate. I never put my wife’s N up for display, and I dont intend to because it isn’t mine to share. I certainly didn’t take offense, but wanted to make sure there were no misrepresentations either. If my wife’s N had been much higher or possibley acquired more recently, I probably would have walked. She knows this, because like I said, we discussed it at length. I didn’t think it would be fair of me to continue the relationship knowing how I felt and that it could mean a break-up in the future, so I explained it all to her. Fortunately she is very logical for an F type, and despite feeling “judged” by my issues with her past, she also realized that MY past was very different, and took the time to try and help me see things from her perspective. Like I said, knowing her state of mind back then helped a lot, because I realized that she made many of those early choices out of a lack of parenting at home. She didn’t have much confidence, hadn’t been taught to think about her future, and had no good role models for a relationship growing up.

    Truth be told, some days I’m honestly surprised she managed to become who she is today based on where she started.

  • Desiderius

    “But this is perception thing right? Shouldn’t a low N woman not be jealous or resentful of a high N woman getting a high N man that she presumably doesn’t want anyways. I’ve been told repeatedly here that many low N women aren’t attracted to high N men.”

    Mike C, this is the sort of (true) observation that gets us into trouble with the boss. Needs to be accompanied by a face- saving out.

    In this case, high-N people (male or female) do better in the MMP than they “should” merely from the fact that they have more experience interacting with the opposite sex in a romantic context than the LTR-oriented do.

    More carousel, less cock.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I have one question – when you say hot, do you mean overtly displaying sexuality? It seems to me that men distinguish between pretty or even beautiful and hot. For example, I’ve seen pics of PUAs with women they label “10″s who are clearly 6s when you take away the makeup and cleavage. This is often the case in pics of Mystery or Tucker Max. The women have a very slutty vibe, and would not compete successfully against a “natural” 10 who turns heads wearing sweat pants and no makeup.

    I think that hot has more of a connotation of displaying sexuality but there still has to be some prettiness there. PUAs are notorious for exaggerating the woman’s looks or SMV. After all, they talk about 12′s on a 1-10 scale! lol For me a 10 is the asymptotic limit as you approach the 100th percentile of female looks. I agree about the 10′s they claim looking more like 6′s (or 7′s). Some don’t exaggerate but a lot do. Remember, a lot of what a PUA is seeking is ego validation.

    Another part of the hot vs. pretty debate is whether a guy is a face guy or a body guy (e.g. T&A). I know both types. The sluttily dressed girl with a nice body (say, 8) but an average face (5) will probably be seen as a 7 by the body guy and a 6 by the face guy.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Not Mike but
    “when you say hot, do you mean overtly displaying sexuality?”

    Hot = slutty.
    Beautiful = SMV 8-10, no regard for feminine demeanour
    Pretty = slightly lower SMV than beautiful + feminine demeanour
    Cute = very, very feminine demeanour with a range of SMVs

    Most of the guys I know do not self-describe their wives/fiancees as hot (unless its in regards to sex specifically, which doesn’t happen after a certain point in the relationship).
    Beautiful (along with other synonyms i.e. gorgeous) and/or cute (adorable) are the most common but my buds and I don’t typically sit and talk about or SOs. Beer and football are infinitely more important.

  • Mike C

    I am happy to see you here. You have earned the designation Commenter Emeritus. :)

    Thanks!

    We see two attracti This is the biggest problem: the 80% are having more difficulty getting together. The low N woman doesn’t want that guy, necessarily, but she wants a guy, and the guy she wants is not approaching.

    Yeah, I don’t have a solution for that. I’m not sure how you create a LOW-RISK opportunity for that guy to present.

    That’s fair enough – it is what it is. But it’s an apex fallacy of its own – I have known very, very few women who are both hot and playfully feminine.

    Yes, that is true. The male equivalent would probably be someone who is tall and physically attractive and also has high status and/or career/wealth success. Simply a rare combination. Still, I’d say having just one of those two is likely to trump any angst over N at the end of the day

    I have one question – when you say hot, do you mean overtly displaying sexuality?

    No, not necessarily. I think overtly displaying sexuality excessively falls into “slutty” but here is where I think it gets tricky. You could have a hot and slutty look and a hot and not slutty look. I’d say the hotness really just refers to the raw physical appearance in isolation. Does she have a good face, good body, nice skin, hair, teeth, etc. The next question is how is it displayed. The woman with her ass hanging out of a super short skirt in 6 inch heels with a ton of cleavage is slutty but could also be hot. The girl with a form fitting turtle neck and form fitting skirt just an inch above the knee could be very hot and sexy without being slutty. The brunette in the one picture HS posted is hot to me although her make-up is wrong. She should have different color lipstick and blush to really bring out her features. Boy, that probably sounds scary, but I’ve been with a make-up artist the last 6 years :)

    It seems to me that men distinguish between pretty or even beautiful and hot.

    Yeah, I’m not sure there is a way to cleanly separate out exactly the three categories. I would emphasize again that guy’s tastes on physical appearance does vary.

  • Desiderius

    Again, LTR-oriented women don’t have to worry about IOI’s – they can be actually interested, and interesting. Now the (disastrous) “hypogamy” frame suggested by Royale will get in the way of that ever happening – if your interest isn’t being reciprocated you’re not all that and have work to do, male or female, but that work begins by practicing showing interest to see what works.

    As far as hotness goes, 1 of 3 is a great rule – too many special snowflakes on the 0 of 3, he should appreciate me for what’s inside plan. Not your call.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    Could you maybe give some advice on how the shyer girls could show better IOI’s and flirt?

    I can try.

    *Clears throat*

    Ladies, huddle up. Let’s talk about flirting/IOIs, shall we?

    You see a guy you like. You want to get his attention. You want to get to know him better, but don’t know how to spark his interest. Here are some tips.

    *Disclaimer*: Understand that there is a threshold of looks that you have to pass for your particular guy. If you can’t meet that threshold, your efforts of getting and keeping his attention will probably be in vain. These tips will most likely not work if the physical attraction aspect hasn’t or can’t be met.

    1. First and foremost, pleasant eye contact is key. Don’t avoid meeting eyes with him, but don’t stare him down so much that he thinks you want to eat him (even if you figuratively do want to eat him). The frequency is also key. Guys can be a little slow on the uptake of flirting signals/IOIs. You have to practically club men over the head with them for them to realize that you may be interested in them. Ideally, make eye contact with him several times, accompanying it with a smile on occasion.

    2. SMILE. This is important. Even if you make eye contact, it’s important for men to know that you are looking at them in a good way. Many men have dealt with women who became rude or upset once they approached them. You need to help decrease some of their fears/anxieties. Smiling lets a guy know that you either like what you see or that you find them pleasant overall. Smiling also helps you look more attractive overall, which is a bonus. Many studies have shown that smiling female faces are rated as more attractive than scowling or blank female faces.

    3. Find some way of getting into his general space. Proximity is your friend.

    4. Don’t be afraid of striking up a conversation with him, no matter how trivial it is. Ask him for the time. Make a comment about your surroundings. Ask his opinion on something. It doesn’t matter what it is. Talking to him allows him to become aware of your existence and to notice your physical qualities.

    5. If the situation warrants it, be open to breaking the touch barrier.

    6. Men will typically take over the reins, at this point. He will either continue talking to you, ignore you, ask for your number, flirt with you, or ask you out. Also, it may sound cliche, but let him pursue you. When I say this, I mean allow him the opportunity to come your way as well. If you want to give him your number, do so. This signals your interest in him, but also allows him to pursue you in order to set up a date. Don’t feel like you are obligated to shoulder all of the aspects of the mating dance. If you are attractive and feminine to him, he will be more than happy to come your way.

    I’ve followed the above tips numerous times, and they rarely fail to work.

  • Just1X

    @Sassy

    all sounds pretty reasonable to me. Sorry to hear that it didn’t work out, (but as an INTx – me, I mean) did you learn something from it?

  • HanSolo

    @Ted, Mike C, Desiderius–and anyone else interested in the difference between ego-validation game (ego-driven “improvement”) vs. inner and outer game that is substance and enlightenment driven.

    I want to SHARE AND HIGHLY RECOMMEND a blog post I recently read about how game is shallow when done for ego-validation and can be very damaging because the underlying frame of mind is that you’re looking for external validation. However, many of the game concepts are very useful if internalized in the context of true self respect, esteem, improvement and wanting to make things better:

    http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/

    It’s the rawness. Someone here or at alphagameplan.blogspot.ca mentioned it and I read it. It’s long so for the conclusion you can CTRL-F and go to section IX, titled TRUE SELF AND FALSE, IDEALIZED SELF Then if you like section IX you can read more.

    Ted, I mentioned you because I think you’re reading The Game and think you would be interested. Desiderius, I mentioned you because I remembered our discussion about the golfing date with the older couple and it made me sense that you were doing a lot of attractive things but perhaps coming at it, subconsciously or consciously, from a frame of trying to get her to like you or maybe trying too hard. Forgive me if I’m mistaken or if you’ve gotten that taken care of now but am trying to share things that I think might help or be of interest to people I like on here.

    I started with part 4 that analyzes specific PUA’s and the huge blindspot of doing all the game for external-based ego validation. I’m now reading part 5 that talks about how to go about self improvement (in life in general and with women) in a healthy way. I will say that I think some of the PUA’s have moved away from the extreme outcome-dependence focus and dancy-monkey techniques to more of a healthy focus on genuine inner game. Of course, there are still a lot of the fly-by-night charlottens that promise that male 5′s can become 9′s and 10′s and that you can get most women. I will point out that back in the day when I first started reading some of the stuff that the Mystery Method stuff seemed to fake and contrived for me whereas I gravitated more to the David DeAngelo Double Your Dating that even back then said that if you can get your inner game in order that you don’t need much or any outer-game techniques because the inner will generate the outer. But he did give outer-game stuff because it was an easy starting place for a lot of men and gave concrete things to do and specific anti-game things to avoid.

  • HanSolo

    Oops, that should be charlatan, not charlotten! LOL

  • Sassy6519

    @ Just1X

    all sounds pretty reasonable to me. Sorry to hear that it didn’t work out, (but as an INTx – me, I mean) did you learn something from it?

    I did learn one major thing.

    - I realized that how a man presents himself and his wants, in the beginning, may not actually be who he is or what he wants. One of the major compatibility issues stemmed around the desire to have children. He told me originally that he wasn’t interested in having kids, after I explained that I didn’t want to have children. I later determined that he actually does want to have kids. He originally said that he didn’t because he wanted to have me, no matter what. In my opinion, that’s a romantic sentiment, but I don’t think a guy should try to change like that to please me. That’s a major compatibility issue, and I know that it would have caused a lot of grief if he and I continued to see each other.

  • HanSolo

    Thanks Sassy, good advice.

  • JutR

    Bastiat, I suspect there’s just a different degree in what we see.

    I am good buddies with a few ex-military, mostly Army (former Ranger and I hunt, shoot, ride, and), a Coast Guardie, and an ex-Air Force, and even a Secret Service guy who worked for GB Sr. They tend to be married, or divorced I tend to gravitate towards being friends with men who have proven character with positive outlooks and diverse interests, all guys who I could call on for help, and they could in return. I don’t know any SEALS or investment bankers, but I don’t tend to meet many, but I’m sure I’d get along with a combination of the two traits. I’m not hyper-competitive, and . I’m quiet, confident, and I probably have a plan to kill you, that I hope to never use. Most of my friends are the same way, though most are more extroverted.

    I agree that specialization adds value in our society, and our interests can lead us to specialize in things that add value to our lives, and society, but that doesn’t mean they add to our value in the eyes of women. I do not lament this, I only note it because of the comment you made. I think it helps add self confidence in our own competence, and that makes for more attractiveness, but the root of competence is not where the attraction is found.

    MGTOW is about balancing. It is about finding the mix that allows you to control what can be controlled in your life, and to allow limited exposure to variables that cannot be controlled, especially when the cost can be so detrimental. When we’re young, gratification in life comes so easily from a smile or attention from women. As men get older, some of us recognize how little that actually means, while some seem to never escape the need for female approval. Different men will have different needs, and they will balance their needs with the risks. Many of them are really only just waking up to the risks, and re-assessing their calculations.

    Susan, MGTOW isn’t about keeping your N at zero or low numbers. That’s just my path. Some rake in the female attention, but feel no obligation to commit. I empathize to highly to do that, and I don’t enjoy the feelings or the drama that the manipulation requires.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Susan,

    I disagree strongly. Hookup culture, which by definition is the flipping of the script – physical intimacy always precedes emotional intimacy – is a game very few are suited for. Complaining early and often is one great way to spread the word so that ultimately 80% of men and women will realize “Huh! We all think this sucks!”

    I think a better way would be to give young people the confidence and esteem to do what they feel is right for them, regardless of what others are doing.

    I’m not sure that men complaining about women and women complaining about men is the answer.

    Not that I think that’s what you’re doing. Though it does constitute a lot of what I’m reading in the comments.

    Fortune favors those who live and play hard.

    I disagree. Those folks either go down in flames or miss out on a lot. Then again, if their levels of narcissism, Machiavellianism and sociopathy are high enough they have no idea what they’re missing, so it’s all good. They are toxic for others, though.

    I think you might be misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t behave well. I’m not defending the Dark Triad. I’m just saying that being good and nice doesn’t get anyone anything. Being a good man isn’t going to make women flock to me and offer me love and sex. I still have to play the game. I can play the game as a good man (this is what I myself try to do and what I want for my boys), but whatever I do, I have to participate.

  • Ted D

    Scot Lasley – “I think you might be misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t behave well. I’m not defending the Dark Triad. I’m just saying that being good and nice doesn’t get anyone anything. Being a good man isn’t going to make women flock to me and offer me love and sex. I still have to play the game. I can play the game as a good man (this is what I myself try to do and what I want for my boys), but whatever I do, I have to participate.”

    Yep, but until the Red Pill I mistakenly continued to believe that being a “good man” WAS what made me attractive. Now I’m a “good man” with some “game”, but I still don’t know if it is better or worse. In many ways, I see being a narcissistic/PUA type as advantagious in the Western World. The type of person that succeeds in the West is one that puts themselves before all others, and it is very difficult to be that kind of person and be “good” at the same time. It troubles me that I even have to consider this when trying to raise my children, but I just don’t know if being “good” has any merit today, and if I’d be handicapping my children by trying to raise them into adulthood as “good” people.

  • commentary

    @Susan

    OK, I will. I’m actually finding it useful to clarify my blogging strategy, and why I won’t be adapting to new purposes and audiences in the way that some readers might like.

    Your audience might find it helpful for you to start putting together a kind of short form/bullet list of several key points that you seem to run into repeatedly. I notice a number of times where a commenter has attributed to you a specific position and you’ve corrected it in some way, exaggerations or misunderstandings. That resource would be particularly useful with citations to back up those key points.

    An example taken directly from this article might be (in your words):

    (*) Do not marry anyone you have doubts about. In fact, do not get engaged to anyone you have doubts about. Do not marry anyone you are not head over heels in love with. Do not marry anyone who is not demonstrably head over heels in love with you. [citation to study and article supporting this].

    Because of the other data you’ve cited regarding number of sexual partners correlating with divorce, would you stand behind and promote the above statement if “marry” is replaced by “have sex with”?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Scot Lasley

    “I still have to play the game”

    This pretty much sums up most guy’s frustrations about dating. It is just a freaking game to a lot of people, men and women. That’s why it’s so fucked up out there. Misinformation about the rules really screwed it up. What happens when playing the game just isn’t fun anymore?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ted

    Not to mention that I often feel like the counter-balance to commenters like yourself, PJ, and Tom. Why is it OK for them to be so pro-casual but Abbot and I are somehow the bad guys?

    Wow. I promote promiscuity? Could you quote me somewhere on that one?

    I suppose if a man isn’t goose-stepping behind the angry mob, he’s basically no better than “the enemy”.

    It’s comments like this that cause me to miss Mr. Munson all the more.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      Wow. I promote promiscuity? Could you quote me somewhere on that one?

      I thought that was odd too. I think Ted is assuming that you are a feminist mangina who’s down with sluts, not a happily married man who has had no need or inclination to swallow the more misogynist ramblings that constitute the Red Jawbreaker.

      It’s comments like this that cause me to miss Mr. Munson all the more.

      I hear you. Looking through his commentary yesterday, I was hit with a profound sense of loss. I was tempted to post at least half of them for no particular reason, just because he was right about so much.

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Ted,

    How’ve you been? I think being a good man is attractive to a good woman. But there are two parts to being a good man. The first part is being “good.” The second part is being a “man.”

    I’m not sure what you consider game, but to me, good game means having a mature and well-developed masculine side.

  • tsimmons

    Ladies, huddle up. Let’s talk about flirting/IOIs, shall we?

    I think this is actually too long.

    Most women do all they can to avoid showing any interest whatsoever in the name of “staying cool”. All you have to do is refrain from doing that.

    I’ve been reading old threads here to catch up. On one thread, someone pointed out that the two types of women they saw get approached were the ones who were really sexually overt, and the shyest girls. And it was the women in the middle who didn’t get approached.

    It struck me that this is true, and also that the one thing the women on the extremes have in common is that when they’re interested in someone, everybody knows.

    With the aggressive girls, everyone knows because…well that’s obvious. But with the shy girls, everyone also knows – because they’re too shy to play it cool. They blush. They can’t make eye contact. They giggle. If you’re talking to a girl who’s doing that, you think, “Wow, this girl is really into me. Maybe I’ll ask her out!”

    The girls in the middle are better at controlling their emotional affect. They stay calm and cool and collected and professional. If you’re talking to a girl who’s acting like that, you think, “Wow, I better not read too much into this, because I don’t want to be THAT GUY who thinks anyone who has a conversation with him is into him.”

    The day you learn to get a handle on your emotions enough to not blush when talking to someone you’re interested is not actually a day to celebrate. Because you probably just cut down dramatically on your number of dates.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tsimmons

      Most women do all they can to avoid showing any interest whatsoever in the name of “staying cool”. All you have to do is refrain from doing that.

      I often talk about how both sexes have largely adopted the Principle of Least Interest when interacting intersexually, and this is relationship kryptonite. I’ve seen a couple of women get rejected and hurt recently because they laid it on the line, and I still think that’s better than if they’d never tried or connected. They think so too.

  • Lokland

    @MM

    If I might make a suggestion.

    I don’t think your pro promiscuity.

    However, its the anti- select against sluts for marriage thats weird. I don’t think you necessarily think that but your comments do leave it open to interpretation.

    Big difference between ‘marry that slut’ and ‘all women are sluts’ but without clarification opinions tend to appear split as one or the other and not a more moderate and realistic opinion.

  • Sassy6519

    You know what Abbot? I’m getting really sick of you bashing American women.

    Yes, some of them are promiscuous, but not all of them are.

    Really, what good do you do by posting the same inane drivel over and over again?

    Maybe it’s a good thing that you left the country to find a bride. You probably couldn’t find a single self-respecting American woman who would give your likely ugly, intolerable ass the time of day.

    You may not like some of the things that someAmerican women do, but it’s senseless to extrapolate their behavior to the entire female population of a country.

    Methinks the man doth protest too much.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I read your other post. I have no big-mouthed friends or relatives, so I guess it’s off to the shrink (Nov. 9).

    Good for you seeking help is important and be 100% honest also if you don’t like him or her don’t give up finding the right psychologist sometimes take time.

    (I’m not UNFRIENDLY… just cold.)

    Sorry to break it to you honey but that is not for you to decide if you project unfriendliness no matter how are you actually feeling that is how the world will perceive you. I’m mostly going for approachability. Would a guy interested on you approach you or not based on the way to move, talk and look? That is the key to everything.

    When I make some real money I’m going to do like some other posters here have said and move, because at my SMV all I can get is one of the many smelly uncultured thugs.
    Ugh pity you,. But you can start slowly visiting museums, conventions and joining intellectual groups outside your area. Imagine the places the thug’s will never go and become a regular with time you surely at least will make friends. One never know maybe another intellectual guy is surrounded by uneducated sluts in your zone and is just waiting for a girl like you to show up. I’m telling you nerdy girls have a huge advantage on the ration male:female if you know where to look.

    I think I need to work out. (I’ve tried the hair thing, but people with my sort of face are always advised to either get it all in their eyes or chop it off, and I know enough to not go down that path.)

    I took make up and stylist classes if you feel comfortable you can sent me a pic and I can try and start to help you out with that. You can buy cheap clothing at Ross Dress for less, Burlington coat factory 99 cent store and so on. The thing is once you know your season, colors and what flatters you it takes little to look best. I got a shirt that cost me 99 cents and everytime I use it everyone compliments me. Including hubby, why? Is in my color, and is fashionable and classic. I’ll be happy to help you out if you want to. :)

    aka winnn…..nning
    Bow to the king!

    Et tu Brutus? I’m very dissapointed on you. Every time a good girl marries a player or a nice guy marries a slut an angel loses the wings…

    So jealous! Happy Thanksgiving.

    Oh yes I forgot Happy Thanksgiving!

    LOL. I loved the scene you painted of the baby models and auditions.

    You loved it because you weren’t there it was mortifying to see many of them so uncomfortable and not being able to entertain them all.

    @Susan, thanks for clarifying. It is an interesting breakdown, and shows two different extremes:

    Yeah those were good points about why they were in denial.

    “Yeah, how does this work? I thought sensual WAS slutty.”

    Nope sensuality is about the senses being comfortable in your own skin, enjoy what your eyes, see what your nose smell, how the food taste like, how you skin feels…is like enjoying your body, your hips, your breasts, the way you hair feels when your fingers pass through it. Sexuality is about sex only showing the “fun” parts displaying like a baboon shows her red derriere, good for animals and players not for humans.

    Continuing the sun analogy, my shy, good-girl type of friends are more like the cold night, providing little or no flirting and sensual radiation. Yeah, the sun is there somewhere but the man has no idea and just sees cold disinterest.

    Yeah cold beauties need to work that one out. That is the particular mistake one of my friends. We both were virgins, she still is but she had a “little girl” vibe I always had the “freak in bed” vibe. I need to address that next time she shares her dating woes

    What we need is a new mating paradigm for those people.

    I introduce you to Shamy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esyHcrgWNz0
    What?! Twilight is over *sniff* I need a new ship to root for. Shamy is just adorkable I want condescending genius twins from them.

  • Sassy6519

    @ tsimmons

    I think this is actually too long.

    HanSolo asked me to provide tips for flirting/IOIs, and I delivered. Long or not, it is what it is.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @LL

    However, its the anti-select against sluts for marriage thats weird. I don’t think you necessarily think that but your comments do leave it open to interpretation.

    I can’t be responsible if others misinterpret (either intentionally or not) my positions. I’ve certainly had plenty of words put in my mouth since I first started commenting.

    But if it matters, my opinion has always been: Lower N = Better. Also, Monogamous N > “Casual” N. That goes for men and women. I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that high N for a man is “less bad” than high N for a woman. Perhaps that’s what irks some here.

  • Ramble

    This is not limited to mating or women. Woody Allen’s “I don’t want to join any club that will have me as a member” sums it up. The pecking order is very real for both sexes, and affiliation with someone of high status is sought by both sexes. That manifests differently, but the dynamic is the same.

    No, Social Cred, Status and Credentialism do not work the same for guys and girls. This is not to say that things like Social Cred and Status are never factors for guys, but it is not even close to what it is for girls.

    It is still common today for many guys to dream about being with that beautiful “girl next door” (however, the culture is definitely changing). That girl next door has no credentials or status other than being nice, beautiful and sweet.

    While tat is a great line from Woody-Allen/Groucho, it *was* not representative of how men were. The average guy was much more interested in belonging to the local Elks/Moose/Whatever lodge than being accepted to some exclusive club. Fishing and hunting with his buddies, poker, etc.

    Not exclusiveness and status.

    Again, this is changing.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy

    I don’t think it was too long. I think it was good and I hope others comment about what you said and offer other ideas too.

    And now, I am a demanding bastard ;) but I would love it if you or other women can offer your advice, long or short, on my 2nd request:

    Could you offer some thoughts on how the girls that are maybe not sufficiently in touch with their sensuality and sexuality could get more in touch without becoming or coming across as slutty? I think that’s one of their fears.

    And I know you have a life and all so no rush and of course you don’t have to but I think your insights would be really valuable if you are so inclined. Thanks. :)

  • Ted D

    Megaman – “Wow. I promote promiscuity? Could you quote me somewhere on that one?”

    I didn’t say you promote promiscuity, but you do tend to take a very “laid back” attitude with this stuff, which to me is almost as bad.

    “I suppose if a man isn’t goose-stepping behind the angry mob, he’s basically no better than “the enemy”.”

    I’ve never been a person that follows “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” I tend to be more Sith-like (sorry Star Wars is on the brain today. Saw that Angry Birds –Star Wars version is coming out soon!) you are either with me, or against me. I may not bother with people that aren’t “with me” as long as they aren’t on my radar, but I never see them as an ally either.

    “It’s comments like this that cause me to miss Mr. Munson all the more.“

    Munson was an awesome guy from what little I saw of him online. He strikes me as the kind of guy I’d like to be, but I would only BE that kind of man in a different world. Perhaps in 15 or 20 years I’ll get there, but it won’t happen while I’m still worried about what will become of my children when they reach adulthood. This shit (and by that I mean the current SMP/MMP and our general decline in morality here in the U.S.) continues to piss me off while I still have the job of giving my children a great start. It makes my job much harder, especially since it is an environment I’ve spent most of my life completely clueless about.

    Scot Lasley – “How’ve you been? I think being a good man is attractive to a good woman. But there are two parts to being a good man. The first part is being “good.” The second part is being a “man.””

    I’ve been well.

    I agree 100%, but the rub is that IME it used to be that being “good” went a LONG way towards being a “man”. Goodness comes with many manly traits, such as strong morality, the desire to help others, strong convictions (especially in the modern world where “goodness” is challenged daily.) Men didn’t need to be “manly men” to find a mate, as our society used to simply appreciate hard work, dedication, and “goodness” from men in general.

    “I’m not sure what you consider game, but to me, good game means having a mature and well-developed masculine side.”

    I tend to see “game” in several different ways. Of course there is Game, which is to say the PUA arts. I’m only interested in those in terms of how they apply to my children. I won’t say that the info isn’t useful in my relationship, but honestly there isn’t much there to assist once the relationship is established.

    There is also what many call “inner game”, and to me that is probably what you mean when you say that having a mature “masculine side” is referring to. This is more about having self-confidence, or simply feeling good with who you are, or fixing it. This is where I’ve had to put in the work, and continue to do so. I’ve always been a “good” person, but I really never was very “manly” in a classic sense. I don’t play sports, I don’t like hunting (although I’m learning to hunt as I see it as a useful skill), and I’m not the rugged outdoorsy type at all. The only real “manly” hobbies/interests I’ve ever had revolve around writing and performing music, but I never once saw it as a manly thing to do. It was simply my creative outlet, and a way to blow off steam. In short, I never in my entire life purposely sat down and tried to develop my “masculinity” and it bit me in the ass.

    I believe that if men in general simply started with “inner game” early and developed that strong frame and sense of self early in life, they would probably be more than successful enough that they wouldn’t need “Game” at all. It really never occurred to me growing up that it was MY CHOICE to develop skills/traits that women would find attractive, because I was always told that a worthwhile women would love me “for who I am on the inside” so those traits didn’t matter. Of course it was BS, but it was BS I believed.

    Lokland – “However, its the anti- select against sluts for marriage thats weird. I don’t think you necessarily think that but your comments do leave it open to interpretation.”

    Yep, this is my take on many of MM’s comments myself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted re Megaman

      I didn’t say you promote promiscuity, but you do tend to take a very “laid back” attitude with this stuff, which to me is almost as bad.

      This is 180 degrees off. MM does not feel the need to constantly harp on the sluttiness of women because he believes that slutty women are a small minority of women. He also believes that most people who are married are happily so, and that most married couples have active and rewarding sex lives. He has produced reams of data as well as your oh-so-favorite anecdotal evidence to support his claims. He is not part of the angry mob. You are.

      I’m surprised by your take on MM, Ted – like you, he has no use for no-strings sex, nor does he desire sexual variety outside his monogamous marriage. In the past some commenters have put you two in the same boat, along with Escoffier and Jesus M.

  • HanSolo

    @Tsimmons

    Good insight about the really shy and the really forward. I liked your comment (besides saying that I disagree that Sassy’s ideas were too long).

    The shy girl standing alone is approachable because she’s alone but if she’s in the 6-girl, inward-facing huddle then that makes it hard.

    Learning to be ALOOF (as Mike C also mentioned) to the guys you like is a killer and it’s taking how women like guys to not show too much interest too soon and thinking that men will find that attractive in women.

  • Plain Jane

    ” Shouldn’t a low N woman not be jealous or resentful of a high N woman getting a high N man that she presumably doesn’t want anyways. I’ve been told repeatedly here that many low N women aren’t attracted to high N men.”

    Low N men are all over the net complaining high N men getting high N women they supposedly don’t want. Its about what Susan wrote here below….

    “We see two attractive people pairing off….it’s still a bitter pill to swallow for the wedding guest or bridesmaid who spent college and after hooking up smart with nothing to show for it. ‘

    And what this commenter said…

    “If she brings “hotness”/high physical appearance and playful femininity, absolutely yes. In the final overall calculus, those 2 items trump N for most guys.”

    The wheel around which everything turns is LOOKS. All of us; ugly, plain, average, slighty above average, whatever, desire to have a mate that we consider physically attractive.

    Men have a bare minimum requirement: does she pass the boner test? Women have our own bare minimum theshold too.

  • HanSolo

    Having mentioned Bill and Hillary it was interesting that while reading at Obsidian’s I saw this article he linked that says Monica is still in love with Bill 15 years later and that’s a big reason why she never married.

    http://www.sundaytimes.lk/110313/Timestwo/t2_05.html

    It makes me think of this song:

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ted

    I didn’t say you promote promiscuity, but you do tend to take a very “laid back” attitude with this stuff, which to me is almost as bad.

    This is the Richard Dawkins effect IMO.

    Would you say Susan’s attitude is “almost as bad” because she doesn’t constantly condemn promiscuity in a forceful manner?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Would you say Susan’s attitude is “almost as bad” because she doesn’t constantly condemn promiscuity in a forceful manner?

      Yes he would – he does. Ted wants us to be all “fire and brimstone” about female sexuality. Meh.

  • Mike C

    I thought that was odd too. I think Ted is assuming that you are a feminist mangina who’s down with sluts, not a happily married man who has had no need or inclination to swallow the more misogynist ramblings that constitute the Red Jawbreaker.

    I’ll try to make one comment on this, and leave it there. Obviously, MM doesn’t support promiscuity….I must have missed Ted stating or implying that, but clearly that is way off the mark. What is fairly clear to me…but you have to read in between the lines a bit, is that MM judges male promiscuity in a more harsh light than female promiscuity.

    Many of his comments have a subtext that a promiscuous male is a sort of active agent while the promiscuous female is just a hapless victim of circumstance or misguided decisions. And truthfully that is the part that irks me.

    Now if I’m wrong on this interpretation….I’ll happily stand corrected but I’d like to hear MM state unequivocally that highly promiscous men and highly promiscuous women are EQUALLY responsible for their decision making and any consequences that result.I

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ll happily stand corrected but I’d like to hear MM state unequivocally that highly promiscous men and highly promiscuous women are EQUALLY responsible for their decision making and any consequences that result.

      Interesting, I have a different take, which as I mentioned is that promiscuity is exaggerated in general. There’s a kind of cultural hysteria that Megaman has correctly identified and much of the research I’ve been able to do has borne out his earlier claims (which are always supported by sources in any case).

      For example, quite a few of the claims made against Marriage 2.0 do not appear to have supporting data to back them up. At least not that may be found on the internet. Perhaps there are secret sources we don’t know about?

      Megaman is an expert is shooting holes in silly ‘sphere claims. Married women stop having sex after a year? Megaman to the rescue! Not so! The percentage of married couples satisfied or very satisfied with their sex lives is over 2/3!

      Like VD, he also logically dismantles silly claims of the sort that INTJ was recently foolish enough to engage in – sweeping generalizations with no reliable foundation.

      I hope he will weigh in on the promiscuity issue. If I’m wrong I’ll be happy to stand corrected as well.

  • Plain Jane

    Ted D, “Not to mention that I often feel like the counter-balance to commenters like yourself, PJ, and Tom. Why is it OK for them to be so pro-casual but Abbot and I are somehow the bad guys?”

    Honestly I don’t know where you got this idea of me being “so pro-casual”.
    For godsake I come from an arranged marriage culture that I totally support. Or at least I see it as one amongst many valid ways of pairing up.

  • Ramble

    *Disclaimer*: Understand that there is a threshold of looks that you have to pass for your particular guy. If you can’t meet that threshold, your efforts of getting and keeping his attention will probably be in vain. These tips will most likely not work if the physical attraction aspect hasn’t or can’t be met.

    Sassy, I am curious, if there was just one thing the average girl could do to improve her looks, what would it be?

  • Ramble

    Oh, and Sassy (at 463), Very Good.

  • pvw

    Re. Hansolo, on the challenge of sensual v. sexual?

    One way to think of it–the five senses–seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting.

    It is possible to dress in a say that appears sensual but not overly sexual.

    Cut of clothes is one–not overly slutty, but attractive, pretty, feminine. You can be sensual in a dress that reaches four inches below the knee!

    I like certain types of shirts and blouses, for example, that show some skin in the chest area, but without being over the top, ie., overly tight and overly low. Wear clothes that flatter your figure.

    I also dress and wear makeup for my complexion– as my complexion is medium brown with red undertones, certain types of lilacs and pinks look fantastic on me (as an example). Accessories–scarves, jewelry, again, tasteful, but to get you noticed, better if they work well with the clothes, ie. picking up the color in your clothes.

    Wearing a scarf in an interesting way…scents–an attractive perfume that will get you noticed. Hair-I like a hairstyle that doesn’t look too severe, ie., my hair is very curly, so I wear twists that play up the curl. I might have them frame my face, great for playing with, and especially when I loosen them–interesting texture.

    Of course, eye contact, a slight smile, makes you appear warm when you are talking. Of course, you should aim to sound warm and pleasant. A brief smile and eye contact–it doesn’t take much to get men to say hi and start chatting. It doesn’t take much to start a conversation, either, depending where you are; there is always something interesting to comment upon or observe when you are out in public.

    Mind you, I’m an INTJ, but I have developed a persona that can appear fairly extraverted–I have to, in that I work in a field that is more extraverted (I teach).

  • http://www.thesuperiormanproject.com Scot Lasley

    Ramble,

    Sassy, I am curious, if there was just one thing the average girl could do to improve her looks, what would it be?

    I know this wasn’t directed to me, but I would say that smiling/laughing is the single easiest and most effective way for a woman to improve her looks.

  • Plain Jane

    That said, here’s a picture where she looks hotter and not like such a mismatch:

    http://students.kennesaw.edu/~ccj4102/tomwellingwife.jpg

    So, based on the first picture it seems like a mismatch whereas in the 2nd one not.

    She looks slightly better than him in that photo. The first link no longer works so have nothing to compare.

    Women have the ability to improve 2 points with the right type of grooming, hair style, clothing, etc, that is the right fit for their individual looks. Problem is so many women don’t know their right individual fit and are trying to copy looks that look good on other women because that’s the latest style or something. Same with men. Roosh is an example of that. He could be decent looking but he doesn’t know how to do it for his particular individual look.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I thought that was odd too. I think Ted is assuming that you are a feminist mangina who’s down with sluts, not a happily married man who has had no need or inclination to swallow the more misogynist ramblings that constitute the Red Jawbreaker.”

    Nah, I don’t make those kinds of assumptions without some kind of data to back it up. I simply see MM, often appear to come to the defense of those that support promiscuity. Especially when it comes to the “marrying sluts” debate. I can’t recall MM ever talking about his marriage, so I didn’t know he was married. It doesn’t make a difference at all, but ALL men should swallow that jawbreaker IMO. What they do with it is their own business, but they should all have that information available.

    Megaman – “can’t be responsible if others misinterpret (either intentionally or not) my positions. I’ve certainly had plenty of words put in my mouth since I first started commenting.”

    Fair enough. The written word is very hard to gauge.

    “But if it matters, my opinion has always been: Lower N = Better. Also, Monogamous N > “Casual” N. That goes for men and women. I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that high N for a man is “less bad” than high N for a woman. Perhaps that’s what irks some here.”

    Not me. I’ve said since day 1 here that I believe women AND men should keep their pants on. I’m an equal opportunity kinda guy.

    In terms of high N for men being “less bad” goes, I think that stems from the ‘spheres idea that men are not affected by casual sex in the same ways as women. I think it is bullshit, but trying to say so is asking for a 2000 post thread about how much of a mangina I am, and other such nonsense. I think Escoffier was told his wife was about to serve him with papers any day for a comment about as “controversial” on a ‘sphere blog.

    I don’t know how it appears from my writing, but I don’t take anything anyone says at face value. If I come here believing in something the ‘sphere promotes, it is because I’ve thought about it myself and concluded they might be right. It certainly isn’t that I just believe everything they say, or else I would never have married again.

    “Would you say Susan’s attitude is “almost as bad” because she doesn’t constantly condemn promiscuity in a forceful manner?”

    Absolutely. I think she is fighting the good fight. I don’t think it will succeed in any quantified manner though. I believe she has and will continue to help individual women, but she isn’t helping “women” in general as much as she could. This is actually the root of the friction between us I believe. She is content to “work in the margins” and stick to her “target audience” while I believe she could be of more help to women in general if she tackled this differently. I don’t know exactly how though, because if I did she would probably kick me off her Twitter followers list, as I’d be constantly sending my suggestions her way. I have a bit of OCD when it comes to watching people do things “their” way if/when I believe I have a better method. What can I say, I specialize in fixing broken systems and processes.

    This is partly why I can’t teach my 18 year old to drive. I want her to skip the “learning” part and just drive the way I tell her. :p

    “This is the Richard Dawkins effect IMO.”

    I don’t understand this comment. I’m probably missing something obvious, but I’d rather just ask what you are referring to than guess, and Google gave me a ton of hits for the name or course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I simply see MM, often appear to come to the defense of those that support promiscuity. Especially when it comes to the “marrying sluts” debate. I can’t recall MM ever talking about his marriage, so I didn’t know he was married.

      Wow, I think you’ve got MM mixed up with someone else. He’s open about his marriage, about his wife and he being both very low N, about his belief that monogamy is satisfying personally as well as good for society, and about his intolerance for bad behavior.

      He has remarked that he is astounded by the level of misogyny I have tolerated here, specifically because I keep repeating that HUS is not the place for men to swallow and digest the Red Jawbreaker. That big red Fireball burning a hole in your tummy? Work it out somewhere else.

      I don’t think it will succeed in any quantified manner though. I believe she has and will continue to help individual women, but she isn’t helping “women” in general as much as she could.

      You have made your case and I am not convinced. Case closed. There is nothing to be gained by your harping on this any further, as it actually detracts from my “marginal” work.

  • Sassy6519

    @ HanSolo

    And now, I am a demanding bastard but I would love it if you or other women can offer your advice, long or short, on my 2nd request:

    Could you offer some thoughts on how the girls that are maybe not sufficiently in touch with their sensuality and sexuality could get more in touch without becoming or coming across as slutty? I think that’s one of their fears.

    And I know you have a life and all so no rush and of course you don’t have to but I think your insights would be really valuable if you are so inclined. Thanks.

    I need some time to think about this. Hmmm.

    @ Ramble

    Sassy, I am curious, if there was just one thing the average girl could do to improve her looks, what would it be?

    The top thing would be to maintain a healthy weight, which hopefully would be obvious for women. If that aspect has been fulfilled, I think women would benefit from maintaining long and flattering hairstyles. Really attractive women can pull off short cuts, but even those women look much better with long hair. I think a lot of women wear unflattering hairstyles, and it makes them look rough and unpolished.

  • HanSolo

    @Sai

    I would encourage you to take Anacaona’s offer of help and contact her at her blog. I think that between the two of you you can come up with some good concrete steps to take.

    If you want a male perspective feel free to write me at quantumcastle atttt yahoo

    Cheers.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Whatever else may be said about HUS, men and women are talking to one another in the comment threads. So the question is how to seduce a person online then. Can it be done ?
    Yes.

    I did it and happy with my choice.

    Why are you skeptical? As someone who “dealt with it” I can assure you that I’m not nor do I expect to ever be “over it” completely. There is and will always be a nag of doubt. I will probably spend many years being overly cautious because of it.

    She still got the ring, for a single woman this is always going to be the thing that matters the most. “She is married and I am not??!” That is how it looks.

    I’ll be honest in admitting that I did break up with my boyfriend this past week.

    Did you noticed that I didn’t congratulate you when you broke the news…? I wasn’t expecting to last. You sure remember some things I told you about your particular strategy. Don’t get me wrong I do want you to pair up, but I wouldn’t chant victory till certain amount of time had passed and you haven’t rejected the man in question. For what is worth I do think that if after a certain time you are still together you have a good chances to make it on the long run, YMMV.

    PUAs are notorious for exaggerating the woman’s looks or SMV. After all, they talk about 12′s on a 1-10 scale! lol

    PUA’s are the equivalent of used cars salespeople they need to sell that you are getting the better deal for your money so of course the women they are pulling up have to be hotties of the highest quality. I mean of course they sometimes to land the hotties but this is again like buying a car you better know about cars before you buy it or your risk to become a sucker and buy a piece of crap because the salesman only wants your money, YMMV.

    That’s fair enough – it is what it is. But it’s an apex fallacy of its own – I have known very, very few women who are both hot and playfully feminine.
    Brendan made a very good point that the really attractive men are and always had been minority and trying to get the unicorn is unproductive. This is something that cannot be mentioned enough.

    Your notes about yourself and your friends resonated. It also struck me that the disciplined self-improvement aspect of MGTOW was, perhaps inadvertently, developing SMV capital by making a man stronger, more self-reliant, armed with well-developed and interesting hobbies, less emotionally needy, etc. What do you think of this…?

    Maybe the solution is teaching our boys in two stages. Before puberty MGTOW. Teaching then hobbies, shooting, fishing, making strong male friendships and always telling them that they can have fulfilling lives without women and that having lots of women are not a sign of manliness, superiority or self steem. Then when puberty hits some PUA teaching showing them how to be attractive to the women they are starting to get interested in already having the idea that this is a bonus of their lives not their main goal…how does that sound to you?

    My latest lesson is that even if you find ‘teh one’ it doesn’t mean that things are going to work out; c’est l’amour. VDM

    Sorry to hear that. I hope that at least this had opened your eyes to the possibility of finding another “the one” and see if it can work out.

    Really? I think it’s the most beautiful sounding language of all.
    On the choice of the correct
    language – I speak Spanish to
    God, Italian to women, French
    to men, and German to my
    horse.
    –Charles V 4

    ‘Do as I say, not as I *did* parenting’

    Or cover up your past the best way possible so your kids never know ;)

    My parents both had N=0 but they almost never talked about sex or relationships so it has the same effect as the former slut who keeps her mouth shut.

    I had been hearing stories of my parents dating habits since I have memory and daddy particularly was no saint, maybe is a cultural thing? I mean what do people talk about with their kids here? We used to have all sorts of conversations usually dressing up for school and having breakfast from politics, sport, gossip, theology…

    Your audience might find it helpful for you to start putting together a kind of short form/bullet list of several key points that you seem to run into repeatedly. I notice a number of times where a commenter has attributed to you a specific position and you’ve corrected it in some way, exaggerations or misunderstandings. That resource would be particularly useful with citations to back up those key points.

    Hooking Up Smart FAQ? I cosign this suggestion it will save us so much time! :D

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    I’d like to hear MM state unequivocally that highly promiscous men and highly promiscuous women are EQUALLY responsible for their decision making and any consequences that result.

    Yes, I’d agree with this statement (unequivocally) WRT highly promiscuous people.

  • Plain Jane

    As far as the male turn-a-ho-into-a-housewife fantasy, the only hos a man will want to turn into a housewife are those who pass his boner test, not any ol’ ho. On the otherhand if you don’t pass his boner test, you could be the personification of virtue and it wouldn’t matter.

    “There are 5 women that are on a repeated, frequent basis approaching 5 men?”

    If women are going to get up the gumption to approach in the first place, which as you say is still rare, then we might as well shoot for the stars, right?

    As a plain teen I figured this all out at quite an early age when they cute boys I crushed on did not reciprocate. It wasn’t until my 20s that I blossomed from ugly duckling to average swan and I realized that if I wanted to date men who’s faces I like to look at, I’M going to have to come out of my shell and take risks. If I’m going to take risks, they will be of the risky sort. I’ll aim high or not at all.

  • Ted D

    Ana – “Maybe the solution is teaching our boys in two stages. Before puberty MGTOW. Teaching then hobbies, shooting, fishing, making strong male friendships and always telling them that they can have fulfilling lives without women and that having lots of women are not a sign of manliness, superiority or self steem. Then when puberty hits some PUA teaching showing them how to be attractive to the women they are starting to get interested in already having the idea that this is a bonus of their lives not their main goal…how does that sound to you?”

    I think this is what fathers used to do before they were either beaten into submission by feminism, or were ejected from their childrens lives through divorce. Well, there are also all those boys born to unwed mothers whos “sperm donor” isn’t enough of a man to teach his boys anything.

    In many ways, the teaching you described above was destroyed when old fashioned masculinity became un-PC.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Anacaona

    Did you noticed that I didn’t congratulate you when you broke the news…? I wasn’t expecting to last. You sure remember some things I told you about your particular strategy. Don’t get me wrong I do want you to pair up, but I wouldn’t chant victory till certain amount of time had passed and you haven’t rejected the man in question. For what is worth I do think that if after a certain time you are still together you have a good chances to make it on the long run, YMMV.

    Yeah, I did notice, and I understand it. I wasn’t offended either. I haven’t had the best track record of staying in relationships once they start. I’m trying to work on that.

  • Ramble

    The top thing would be to maintain a healthy weight, which hopefully would be obvious for women.

    I figured that this would be your answer, but I wanted to hear it any way…and I agree.

    Susan, I don’t bring up this subject over and over again because I am trying to be a dick. So many people in the West focus on the obese when the real problem, for most, is being mildly overweight. And there are very few voices out there promoting the idea that you *should* lose that weight for superficial reasons.

    That is, you might very well be healthy, but if you were just 15 lbs slimmer, you would look so much better.

    Anyway, Sassy, good stuff..including your comments on hair.

  • Emily

    Another thing with learning how to flirt: PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!!!

    IME “beta females” are less worried about being perceived as slutty and more worried about looking ridiculous, but practice is really the only way to learn.

    Flirting doesn’t always have to be sexual either. I once read an article that pointed out that toddlers actually are master flirts, especially if they want something. Also, girls often have flirt-like banter with their female friends. So the best place to start is with that kind of “platonic flirting”.

    So one tip is just to have playful banter/flirt in any situation where it’s even *remotely* appropriate. (Probably not your boss. And don’t go around deliberately accumulating beta orbiters either, because that’s just evil. But otherwise everybody is fair game.) People like waiters and cashiers and baristas are great because they’re a captive audience, and you’re only interacting with them for 30 seconds, so if your flirting backfires then it doesn’t really matter. Start up some playful conversation if you can, or at the very least practice the whole smiling/eye contact thing with different people. And if your flirting is successful, then you get the practice and the “flirtee” an ego boost. Everybody wins!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      People like waiters and cashiers and baristas are great because they’re a captive audience, and you’re only interacting with them for 30 seconds, so if your flirting backfires then it doesn’t really matter. Start up some playful conversation if you can, or at the very least practice the whole smiling/eye contact thing with different people. And if your flirting is successful, then you get the practice and the “flirtee” an ego boost. Everybody wins!

      Great suggestion! Banter is a skill one can learn, and the willingness to risk it is a muscle that can be conditioned. I engage in playful conversation with a high percentage of the men I meet. Not sexual, obviously, but a ton of playful teasing. I get great responses from men with this approach. In fact, I often get free stuff, better service, or special treatment. I’m telling you, you get this one skill down and you will punch far above your weight in life – I’m 55 and still doing it because guys think I’m a “cool lady.”

      A mentor once told me that my special gift is making other people feel and look good. Playful banter serves to make people feel good, like they’re worth noticing, and they often respond generously and in a connected way.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    Good stuff. Thanks! I agree that the proper fit of clothing can be very sensual and boner inducing without coming across as skanky.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    In many ways, the teaching you described above was destroyed when old fashioned masculinity became un-PC.

    Yeah good thing I learned about all this before I became a mother of a boy even if not feminist mothers worry about daddy not being careful enough and things like that. Now I will relax more and make sure hubby had fun with the kids. I picked a winner he will do a fine job…of course the first time the boy cut his fingers building something I’m going to freak out like hell. I still remember my first cut in the kitchen mom was not happy…oh parenthood can’t wait! :D

    PS
    Thank you Mike C for the good wishes :D
    I’m mostly hoping that William decides that he is done in my womb and come out, preferably not in the bathroom or the park (being having nightmares about it for weeks)

    Yeah, I did notice, and I understand it. I wasn’t offended either. I haven’t had the best track record of staying in relationships once they start. I’m trying to work on that.

    I’m glad. :)

    Also, girls often have flirt-like banter with their female friends. So the best place to start is with that kind of “platonic flirting”.

    Little girls start flirting with daddy. I can’t flirt for the life of me so I never actually did it but I had seen some of my friends girls doing it. They start really early to learn how to get things from men, is adorable actually unless you think all men are pervs that is.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ted

    I simply see MM, often appear to come to the defense of those that support promiscuity. Especially when it comes to the “marrying sluts” debate.

    With all due respect, I’m going to have to ask you again to specifically quote me on that one. :wink:

    I don’t recall ever defending the positions of someone like Tom. But I haven’t tried to shout him down, either. I appreciate his presence (that’s all) as he’s pretty much the only male regular with such positions.

    I don’t understand this comment.

    Richard Dawkins, noted evolutionary biologist, author, and committed (strong) athiest. He’s on record as stating that religion is “the root of all evil”, and that even religious moderates are a problem because their beliefs indirectly validate those of religious extremists. He’s also stated that fellow scientists who have any kind of religious belief, no matter how small, are “only half scientists”.

    I don’t particularly care for Professor Dawkins and his positions on religion. That being said, your comment about being “almost as bad” made me think of him for some reason.

  • Emily

    As for you Sai…

    Online you have a very cheerful bubbly playful and even (dare I say it?) …*flirty* vibe. So I know you have it in you! You just need to learn how to convey it in real life.

    And working on your appearance is always a good idea. Seriously, nobody is beyond redemption. So just the things that everybody have been saying: healthy weight, long hair, make up etc.

    And clothes as well. Working on your styling can make a huge difference. Even if wearing a pink frilly dress isn’t your thing, there are other ways of conveying femininity. For example, I’ve known girls who managed to pull off the goth/punk look in a way that still looks feminine (in their case it often involves corsets…) and although they have more of a “niche” appeal, they still have admirers. So play around and find something that suits you.

    A lot of the hair/makeup/fashion stuff also takes some practice, so have fun with it! ;)

  • Ted D

    Megaman – “I don’t particularly care for Professor Dawkins and his positions on religion. That being said, your comment about being “almost as bad” made me think of him for some reason.”

    thanks for the clarification. I can see how you would be reminded of him from my comment, and there are parallels in my statment. In my personal life, I am not nearly as “extremist” as I appear to be here. I tend to have a ‘live and let live’ attitude in most things, but declining morality just isn’t one of those areas. I come from the “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile” camp when it comes to promiscuity, so I rally hard on the anti-casual side because there is a tidal wave of support out there for it in contemporary media.

    I’d love to take a more even-headed and balanced approach, but that can’t happen for me until I see less OOW births, less promiscuity across the board, and some frank and truthful discussions in mass media on the subject. Right now, I honestly feel like the best I can do now is plug the holes in the damn and keep shouting for help. So yes, to me anyone that is “soft” on the subject isn’t really helping to solve the problem. Perhaps when I’m not so directly invested in it, I’ll be able to take a more even keeled approach. I will say that how things turn out for my children in the next 5 to 10 years will greatly influence that outcome.

  • Ted D

    lol I meant dam. I hate when that happens…

  • deti

    Jason773 – “Its just such a basic idea that I don’t understand how one can get it wrong”

    What Ted D said; plus:

    Young men who are raised the way Ted and I were are specifically taught and instructed that the man is always, always to subordinate his wants, needs, desires, hopes and dreams to those of his woman. My father reinforced this at home by his words and deeds, telling me to “keep your di*k in your pants” and never, never, NEVER escalate with a girl. Dad taught me that you let the girl set the frame and the course of the relationship.

    So that’s yet another way that betas fall into bad relationships and even marriages to women who aren’t head over heels in love.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Ted

    So yes, to me anyone that is “soft” on the subject isn’t really helping to solve the problem.

    I’m not a “truthseeker” (too ideological), just looking for clarity and understanding on some very murky topics. Susan’s provided a lot of good resources, which I’ve passed along to my still-single friends (late 20s, early 30s). I also wouldn’t overrate my own ability as an anonymous nobody to effect positive change over the internet. For that matter, I wouldn’t even try.

    OTOH, I find things like this very interesting, even though they’re not directly related to the human SMP:
    http://www.livescience.com/23449-city-coyotes-monogamous.html

    Terms like alpha/beta seem less relevant. Who said monogamy was NEVER natural?

  • Desiderius

    Ana,

    “Maybe the solution is teaching our boys in two stages. Before puberty MGTOW. Teaching then hobbies, shooting, fishing, making strong male friendships and always telling them that they can have fulfilling lives without women and that having lots of women are not a sign of manliness, superiority or self steem. Then when puberty hits some PUA teaching showing them how to be attractive to the women they are starting to get interested in already having the idea that this is a bonus of their lives not their main goal…how does that sound to you?”

    Great plan. The dangerous book for boys is a good resource for the first part.

    More good stuff from Emily at comment 505 (for both genders – if your person of interest, get to know the rest of the group first and no faking, find something interesting about them) and Sassy at 463 (just watch the patronizing attitude, the word is from the Latin pater meaning “father” so you’ll come across as too masculine. Find something to admire in him).

  • Ted D

    “Young men who are raised the way Ted and I were are specifically taught and instructed that the man is always, always to subordinate his wants, needs, desires, hopes and dreams to those of his woman.”

    I will give you an example from my own childhood. I lived with my mother and grandparents growing up. Any time my grandparents would get into some kind of tiff, my mother would tell me how selfish my grandfather was for ignoring what my grandmother wanted. She told me that a “good” man always concerns himself with what his wife wants, and always does his best to meet that want.

    In hindsite, I can see that many of these “tiffs” revolved around money and how it was being spent. I make more today than my entire family did growing up, so money was tight. My grandfather simply did NOT see the point in spending money unless it was necessary, but HIS definition of necessary didn’t align with my grandmother’s. Not saying that she managed money badly, but when it came to making larger purchases, my grandfather firmly believed you didn’t spend until you absolutely had to.

    I spent all of my memorable childhood thinking that my grandfather was mean to my grandmother and generally an example of how NOT to be a “good man”, when in fact what I should have done is modelled my attitude towards women exactly on how he behaved.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Young men who are raised the way Ted and I were are specifically taught and instructed that the man is always, always to subordinate his wants, needs, desires, hopes and dreams to those of his woman.

      I’ve said before that I have never witnessed or heard of such a thing other than from some men here, who generally represent this as a function of the culture, something that permeated male life during the last two generations.

      I believe that men have been feminized by the culture, but not to the degree that some men express here, including being ashamed to look at a woman and feel desire, or feeling obligated to marry a woman and supplicate to her every whim.

      I do not have a sense whether we are talking about 2%, 20%, 40% or 80% of the male population.

  • commentary

    Regarding the data in the article: it would be interesting to connect this with another study/data set re: any link between number of sexual partners (or N, which seems to be the very abbreviated form for that in use here) and doubts before marriage.

    Does anyone recall any such study already available or cited in the past?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @commentary

      Regarding the data in the article: it would be interesting to connect this with another study/data set re: any link between number of sexual partners (or N, which seems to be the very abbreviated form for that in use here) and doubts before marriage.

      Does anyone recall any such study already available or cited in the past?

      It is extremely difficult to find any research that correlates N with anything. The oft-cited study about N and divorce (Teachman) is literally the only one I am aware of, and it is not perfect for our purposes, as it looked at cohabiting couples, not single or dating couples. I have also found one study that correlates premarital N for males with decreased sexual satisfaction in marriage – every previous sexual partner decreases satisfaction by over 5%. However, that is a Master’s thesis out of BYU. It doesn’t really meet the threshold for quaity, IMO.

      I’m not sure why there isn’t more research – I would think the Heritage Foundation or similar would eagerly tackle these questions.

      There has been some research correlating casual sex in college with negative outcomes on academic performance, physical health and mental health.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sassy at 463, absolutely perfect. Nailed it. Welcome back, and, well, sorry you’re back.

  • Sassy6519

    @ OffTheCuff

    Sassy at 463, absolutely perfect. Nailed it. Welcome back, and, well, sorry you’re back.

    Thanks!

    Also, it’s okay. He and I are actually still on speaking terms. We’ve managed to keep things civil.

    The dating game can be frustrating at times, but I’m doing my job right if I do filter out men. The trick will be to see if I ever do meet a man who manages to pass through all the filters. Lord knows I have a lot of them.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Deti, I’m willing to bet Jason wasn’t raised in a church, or if he was, he lost his virginity/dated/had social proof long before they ever sent him to abstinence class. So, the messages we got as kids about “never escalate” aren’t the same for those raised in stricter environs. They could tell that it was bullshit, because they figured it out before the false message was delivered.

    I distinctly recall the social sorting-out happening starting around sixth grade, and then middle of seventh, it was pretty much set in stone for all through high school. There’s a narrow window to make your social mark, and unfortunately I was 1-2 years younger than everyone else, which did not help.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Deti, I’m willing to bet Jason wasn’t raised in a church

      Jason is Jewish. The evangelical set seems to have been particularly affected, though Ted is Catholic.

  • J

    @Han, Ryale

    I think for you it’s more of a marketing problem in how to get in enough contact with enough suitable men so that it can work out with one of them.

    Yeah, I agree. I also think that Royale needs to figure out what demographic of men whe appeals to and “market” herself there. I myself was never every guys’ cup of tea; my looks appeal to more guys that mty personalitgy did. Eventually you figure out what sort of guy is most likely to reject you, and you walk away first. Then you figure ouy who likes you and place yourself where you can meet more like that.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Susan / Szopen
    We cannot be certain if correlation is causation with isolated genes in humans; if I were to take a group of people who were in all other ways representative of the general population, but all had gene “X” and gene “X” was non-functional, but I then encourage them to adopted a high fat/ high salt diet; one might correlate gene “X” with diabetes and heart disease. Simply because one gets greater pleasure (than the average person) from an act or finds it less repugnant to engage in an act does not mean a person is “bound” to engage in those acts. I know it is en vouge in Western Civilization to view repressed impulses as unhealthy and acting upon ones impulses as “healthy”, but such views are a reversion to barbarity. It was Lord Bishop Cranmer who said, “What the heart desires the will chooses and the mind justifies”; I am reminded of Jeremiah 17:19, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”. Borrowing from Martin Luther; we must beat in to the people’s heads that they must go into strict training and make their bodies and hearts slaves to their will and bind their wills to their minds. One might argue that such a thing is impossible for the average person, but it was the case for well over 300 years; it is only over the last 150 years that we have been making excuse for deficits of character by saying “ they are predisposed” or “it’s a diseases”. The result has been a civilization that is sinking further in further into moral decay. On the issue of psychopathy, I am not convinced it actually exist as an objective disorder. Let us remember that no more than 2000 years ago the ancestor of many Westerners watched and cheered as men fought to the death or were publicly executed in arenas; would not that behavior be called psychopathic today? Is 2000 years sufficient time for genetic drift or a mutation to curb such behavior? Or more realistically, was it simply that Christianity came and brought with it a moral code that condemned such behavior. How about the fact that as late as 70 years ago public lynching was a family activity in the American South; people would bring their children to see men (and sometimes women) beaten, hanged, and burned while they ate and joked; then they would take picture with the mutilated corpses; is that not the definition of mass psychopathy? Again, was their genetic drift or mutation, or did society raise the standard of behavior. “Psychopathy” as we see it in the modern West is merely man with his most base urges and instincts unrestrained by morals or ethics.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HerrKaiser

      One might argue that such a thing is impossible for the average person, but it was the case for well over 300 years; it is only over the last 150 years that we have been making excuse for deficits of character by saying “ they are predisposed” or “it’s a diseases”.

      I share your concern about this – I’m afraid that we’ll be debating whether to punish pedophiles if “they can’t help it.” Man’s capability to engage in higher order thinking may mean that some people will face more of a challenge to be “good” or productive, but that doesn’t relieve them of responsibility.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Let us remember that no more than 2000 years ago the ancestor of many Westerners watched and cheered as men fought to the death or were publicly executed in arenas; would not that behavior be called psychopathic today?

    Err we do that this days too. Violent movies (Saw series anyone?), video games ( and I will add Reality TV because I hate it and with few exceptions represents the worst behaviour of humanity) we just don’t do it in a way that actually harms people but there is a whole industry devoted to make it as realistic as possible and people devote hours of their lives to enjoy the effects of simulated Roman arena. And this is not a critique I love nothing more than shoot/slice and overall make things explode in video games, I also always liked guns and the way the powder smells (and hubby is going to teach me to shoot for real at some point) and I love stylized/physical violence (psychological/emotional violence gives me the creep though) but the instinct is still there, we haven’t lost it we have found ways to channelize it.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    I’m quoting this from that infamous David Shade Manual. More to the point :

    How he identifies good women.

    On the other hand, a woman who does have a good sense of deservedness will be your best ally. She will be routing for you. She believes that she deserves to experience wonderful pleasure, and she believes that she deserves you.

    A good sense of deservedness is the opposite of a bad sense of deservedness. (Note: everybody has A sense of deservedness.) An example of a bad sense of deservedness is a woman who stays with a controlling man.

    Therefore, one of the quickest ways to obtain much information about a woman is to note the men she associates with.

    Deservedness is entirely environmentally determined. A person’s sense of deservedness begins to develop early in life.

    I have found that women who had a close relationship with their father when they were little girls have a very good sense of deservedness. Such a woman is a ‘daddy’s girl.’

    A ‘daddy’s girl’ is a woman who had a very close relationship with her father when she was a little girl. He was loving and caring. He believed in her and supported her.

    He may have even taught her how to throw a baseball or throw a punch. She thus grew up with a high self esteem, a healthy relationship with men, and a good sense of deservedness.

    She is thus emotionally healthy and believes that she deserves to be treated well by men. Interestingly, she is also very skilled at influencing men and making a man feel emotionally close to her.

    This is in contrast to another woman who had a condescending or absent father. Such a woman is incapable of forming a deep emotional bond with a man. She has a bottomless pit of emotional need that can never be filled.

    She believes that she deserves to be treated poorly by men, though she expects being showered with attention and material gifts. She is often spotted in the company of men that view women as things.

    Daddy’s girls also tend to be talkative. I love talkative women. They have an opinion and they can sustain a conversation. This is in contrast to another woman who needs to be constantly entertained.

    Maybe there are women that don’t really need training in IOI’s … they were daddies’ girls … and I think any MRA would have no trouble in asserting that the supply of daddies’ girls will dwindle as current trends continue.

    So, all in all, this current milieu which buggers up fathers, will eventually bugger up their daughters, and hence their daughters’ relationships as well.

    And the trend will just get worse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      Fantastic comment re the David Shade manual, which I’ve never heard of, believe it or not.

      Maybe there are women that don’t really need training in IOI’s … they were daddies’ girls … and I think any MRA would have no trouble in asserting that the supply of daddies’ girls will dwindle as current trends continue.

      So, all in all, this current milieu which buggers up fathers, will eventually bugger up their daughters, and hence their daughters’ relationships as well.

      I think this is true – I grew up close to my father (much closer than I was to my mother). I flirted with him to get what I wanted and I worked hard to make him proud of me. I am still the apple of his eye.

      Is being a Daddy’s Girl the opposite of being a girl with Daddy issues?

  • Plain Jane

    “Interesting, I have a different take, which as I mentioned is that promiscuity is exaggerated in general. ”

    The Manosphere exaggerates many things, including the “total collapse of Western civilization”.

    ” There’s a kind of cultural hysteria”

    The conspiracy theorist survivalists of the SMP!

    :)

    Om Sri Laxmai Namah

  • Plain Jane

    That being said (what I did above), there are a plethora of baby mamas in this culture, BUT not all, or even “most” of them are high N. I take it the M-sphere sees a baby mama and assumes high N. I don’t think they have much experience with that demographic. I do, and I can tell you its not a matter of being high N.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Mike C/ Hans Solo/ Ted D/Sai / Sassy/et al.

    I will give you an example of a woman that was sexy, but not at all slutty. About two years ago, I had a business meeting and the woman on the opposite side of the transaction was Persian Muslim; when I first saw her, I was not impressed, she barley a six in the looks department. However, as she began to engage with the group, I noticed she oozed seduction. It was a very different type of seduction, it was not slutty; in fact, she was very chased in appearance and general body language, but her tone of voice and facial expression were hypnotic. She played the part of a proper Muslim woman, but you felt intoxicated by her. All the men in the room (they were all wealthy high status professionals) started to become bashful and were vying for her attention and she played them of masterfully. Watching this, I had a moment of introspection; I thought, “Were did she learn this!”; “Who taught her this!”; “My God, if this women were better looking she would destroy the world!” .

  • Abbot

    “the supply of daddies’ girls will dwindle as current trends continue.”

    The supply of women parented in any meaningful way has already fallen off the cliff…thus the current trend

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan.

    So the introvert/extrovert distribution is about 50/50 ?

    Which means that for every person that speaks his mind, there’s another one that tells him to shut up !

    … ha … only in America

  • Plain Jane

    ” However, as she began to engage with the group, I noticed she oozed seduction. It was a very different type of seduction, it was not slutty; in fact, she was very chased in appearance and general body language, but her tone of voice and facial expression were hypnotic. She played the part of a proper Muslim woman, but you felt intoxicated by her. ”

    The appeal of the exotic “other”.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @ HerrKaiser.

    The closest thing to a femme fatale that I’ve ever seen, was the female lead in The Human Contract . I’m toast if I should ever meet a woman like her, even if she is not as pretty.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan Walsh October 8, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    People like waiters and cashiers and baristas are great because they’re a captive audience, and you’re only interacting with them for 30 seconds, so if your flirting backfires then it doesn’t really matter. Start up some playful conversation if you can, or at the very least practice the whole smiling/eye contact thing with different people. And if your flirting is successful, then you get the practice and the “flirtee” an ego boost. Everybody wins!

    Great suggestion! Banter is a skill one can learn, and the willingness to risk it is a muscle that can be conditioned. I engage in playful conversation with a high percentage of the men I meet. Not sexual, obviously, but a ton of playful teasing. I get great responses from men with this approach. In fact, I often get free stuff, better service, or special treatment. I’m telling you, you get this one skill down and you will punch far above your weight in life – I’m 55 and still doing it because guys think I’m a “cool lady.”

    A mentor once told me that my special gift is making other people feel and look good. Playful banter serves to make people feel good, like they’re worth noticing, and they often respond generously and in a connected way.
    ————————————

    When waiters, baristas, cashiers or whoever asks you, “how are you?” smile, look them straight in the eye and say, “I’m doing well. How are you?”

    You’d be amazed how many people appreciate this. Its part of their job to ask that but many of them told me that many times nobody asks back. They just say, “fine” or “kay”. Do it on the phone with call reps too. They are often very surprised and happy that you asked, and will go out of their way to accomodate you.

    Showing a little genuine interest melts the hearts of a people who feel invisible.

  • Mike C

    I believe that men have been feminized by the culture, but not to the degree that some men express here, including being ashamed to look at a woman and feel desire, or feeling obligated to marry a woman and supplicate to her every whim.

    I do not have a sense whether we are talking about 2%, 20%, 40% or 80% of the male population.

    Well….FWIW, I am going to basically cosign both Ted and Deti in terms of both the parental and cultural message I got growing up. I’m pretty sure OTC would cosign as well, and I’d point out the 4 of us probably span about 5 years in age tops. I think Deti and Ted are 42 and 43 while I am 38 and I think OTC is late 30s as well. I’ll take a page out of Dr. Jeremy’s book and say I think this statement makes me uncomfortable in that seems to question what some of us are directly saying we experienced. By my math, your formative years along with your male peers was essentially the 1970s decade while for us it was the 1980s and part of the 1990s. I know in my discussions with Badger who is more of a 1990s formative year he experienced the same thing. In my view, this is something that really took on steam in the 1980s. I think it was when the “sexual objectification” of women became something that made you some kind of pervert despite the fact that it is perfectly normal for a male teenager with hormones to sexually objectify a woman he finds physically attractive.

    I’ve made this point several times before to a variety of female commenters and I’ll make it once again. This is an online forum where for the most part people feel a lot more comfortable being entirely candid about their views and experiences. I think it is an error of colossal magnitude to take what you hear here and try and compare it to what you hear or don’t hear from males in real life where there is going to be a natural tendency to be much more careful, guarded, and reserved regarding what you say.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike C

      . I’ll take a page out of Dr. Jeremy’s book and say I think this statement makes me uncomfortable in that seems to question what some of us are directly saying we experienced.

      I like the way you are using your words. :) I apologize – I am genuinely trying to get a sense of how ubiquitous this is, and whether it’s a function of churchgoing or something more pervasive in the culture.

      By my math, your formative years along with your male peers was essentially the 1970s decade while for us it was the 1980s and part of the 1990s. I know in my discussions with Badger who is more of a 1990s formative year he experienced the same thing. In my view, this is something that really took on steam in the 1980s. I think it was when the “sexual objectification” of women became something that made you some kind of pervert despite the fact that it is perfectly normal for a male teenager with hormones to sexually objectify a woman he finds physically attractive.

      There is no question that sexual objectification is a predominant cultural meme, and it was as I was growing up. My questions are based on my experiences growing up with brothers and male peers. It was not my perception at the time that they were shamed for normal male instincts. My impressions are also based on my experience as a parent. I never defined feeling attraction as objectifying women – I always regarded that as feminist extremism. And I believe most of my peers treated the subject the same way.

      I ask not to cast doubt on anyone’s experience, but because it’s essential to define the normative male experience. Why? Because I need to know exactly how much initiating (or reassuring) women will need to do on this score to close the mating gap. I appreciate your patience, and if it’s true that men feel that they have been made to feel ashamed of desiring the female body, then women will need to step up and make it clear that they appreciate being admired in this way. Because we do.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Interesting, I have a different take…

    FWIW, if I were an overly cynical person, and I read between the lines of comments made by (some) male regulars, I might conclude that not only did they have zero problem with male promiscuity, they were also passively advocating it. On a female-oriented blog no less. :wink:

    How else can one interpret statements to the effect of: “As long as I’m not overtly lying, I have absolutely no responsiblity to be frank and honest about my intentions and motives before sex.” And then there’s the 40% or so who do admit to lying. But I’d hold a woman to the same standard of candor. An honorable person IMO would be frank and honest, even if doing so didn’t get him laid (or get her a relationship)…

    Megaman is an expert…

    No. I’ll admit to being amateur expert only in my chosen profession, which is neither sociology nor statistics. Though I do find those things interesting. And I don’t always bring sources to the discussion, though I am better with facts than fluff. The standard disclaimer:

    I do not vouch for the authenticity, reliability, or accuracy of any sources or studies Susan has cited in her articles. Or even ones I cite myself. I didn’t conduct the research, the authors did and they’re the ones doing the vouching. I merely take their results at face value *after reading them* and form an opinion based upon the facts and evidence presented.

    I hope he will weigh in on the promiscuity issue.

    CDC/Census: ~8% of currently married women have 10+ lifetime partners. It’s obviously a serious concern for those guys, particularly with low N themselves, confronted by the reality of something like that personally. But I’d consider the phenomenon rather uncommon (but maybe not “rare”). With regard to proportionality online, yeah, it seems like the first thing a young woman is suspected of is having slept around. And also that she will probably lie about it.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Abbot
    Yes, but this woman had it more than any other woman I have ever met. Although I was not physically attracted to her (and in her presence, I had to keep reminding myself of that), I will judge every other woman I meet by her standard. Of course on the other, it would probably be best not to marry a woman as seductive as she would (without constant mental fortitude) have me wrapped around her finger

  • Mike C

    FWIW, if I were an overly cynical person, and I read between the lines of comments made by (some) male regulars, I might conclude that not only did they have zero problem with male promiscuity, they were also passively advocating it. On a female-oriented blog no less.

    You don’t have to read in between the lines for me. I don’t have any problem with male promiscuity. I actually don’t have any problem with female promiscuity either on a purely intellectual level although one has no control over visceral emotional reactions.

    I’m gonna riff here a bit. One new concept Susan has brought to the table is this difference between restricted and unrestricted sociosexuality. I’d actually never heard of the concept until she introduced it, but I think there is an enormous amount of validity to it. My guess is you, Ted, and probably a good number of the other male commenters all have a restricted orientation. One implication of that is you have no conception of what it is like to be an unrestricted person which I’m 99.99% sure I am. Interestingly, one implication of that is there really isn’t much virtue in showing restraint for something you are not wired for or predisposed to anyways. You are just following your nature. What strength of character is there in that? So no, I’m not going to judge negatively a guy who is unrestricted and engages in promiscuity while being ethical about it.

    Now it gets tricky when we start thinking about the societal implications of promiscuity, and I’m going to put my elitist hat on. For the most part, the upper classes probably tend to be more intelligent than the lower classes. Historically, there has always been a level of hypocrisy between the upper classes/aristocracy in what they do versus what they advocate. So at the upper class level, you could have mostly consequence free promiscuity. The women use birth control and are careful. However, in the lower classes, you get rampant out of wedlock births, fatherless homes, poverty, raising the next generation of criminal males as a result of promiscuity. I don’t really have a policy solution there except to observe that the magnitude of negative consequences depends on who is engaging in the behavior.

    I’m not advocating for any particular MO except to KNOW THYSELF and strategize accordingly. A relationship oriented restricted woman should NOT be engaging in casual sex as a means to acquiring a relationship. An unrestricted woman might engage but she needs to be aware that some men may choose to filter her out based on that. What I do advocate is take responsbility for your own choices and don’t blame someone else.

  • J

    @marellus #525

    Nice post on the difference between deservedness and entitlement.

  • J

    I’ve said before that I have never witnessed or heard of such a thing other than from some men here, who generally represent this as a function of the culture, something that permeated male life during the last two generations. ……

    I’m glad you said this. On the one hand, because of I’ve heard some of the individual stories, I accept that the male posters making these claims are speaking the truth about their own childhoods. OTOH, when I first started hearing these stories, especially when presented as typical of the culture at large, I found the notion of them as pervasive to be sort of hard to believe. Esspecially since I really don’t see it mirrored in the culture around me.

    My own home is sort of a haven for teenage boys. My sons’ friends tend to regard me as a second, though cooler, mom and are very–may be too- open around me. To tell the truth, I WISH sometimes they had a little more shame (and you guys KNOW how I feel about shame!). Nothing embarasses these boys.

  • Desiderius

    “Census: ~8% of currently married women have 10+ lifetime partners.”

    Misleading – vast majority predated hookup culture.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Desi

    Misleading – vast majority predated hookup culture.

    Actually, that particular sample (from 2006-2008) included only those aged 15-44 at the time. I believe Susan’s pointed out that that N is probably lower today for young people that it was back in the 1970s, on average.

  • Desiderius

    “Nothing embarasses these boys.”

    Unlikely. They just know how you feel about shame and are trying to find the boundary.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Nothing embarasses these boys.”

      Unlikely. They just know how you feel about shame and are trying to find the boundary.

      Topics I have overheard guys discuss openly in my home, in coed company:

      Appeal of 70s bush, vs. landing strip vs. Brazilian.

      Conditions under which guy is willing to perform oral sex on a woman.

      What “nasty” experiences guys have had.

      Individual preferences re body parts – breasts, legs, ass.

      The truth about anal – how it feels compared to the vagina.

      What constitutes a good blowjob.

      Sample size of about 25 total, 22 of whom are solid beta.

  • J

    Unlikely. They just know how you feel about shame and are trying to find the boundary.

    Possible, but I dunno. I do set limits with them, and they do it with other people as well. A female school administrator has been the victim of some of my younger son’s best friend’s exuberance. She is very prudish and freaks out, which makes her all the more fun to mess with.

  • J

    I never defined feeling attraction as objectifying women – I always regarded that as feminist extremism.

    Feeling attraction is not objectifying women; treating women as though all they are is a body is objectifying them. IOW, thinking Mary Sue is hot is fine. Complimenting her, also fine. Yelling, “Hey, baby, let me grab those tits.” out a car window at her…not so much.

    And I believe most of my peers treated the subject the same way.

    Ditto.

  • Desiderius

    Mm,

    My sense is it would be lower for under 25′a and over 35′s. Ground zero for second-wave feminism is now around 30.

  • Ramble

    I believe that men have been feminized by the culture, but not to the degree that some men express here, including being ashamed to look at a woman and feel desire, or feeling obligated to marry a woman and supplicate to her every whim.

    Everybody Loves Raymond

    And that meme is not behind us. The most popular sitcom on the air right now is The Big Bang Theory. The most normal of the 4 guys, Leonard, is constantly referencing the idea that his male desires and interests should either be second to the girls, or be a source of shame.

    The previously most popular sitcom was Two and a Half Men. The show had 3 characters: The deceptive Cad, the caring and supplicating Dad and the idiot son who does not do too badly with girls.

    I understand that pop culture is not real life, but it is instructive in what is acceptable to say in the modern world.

  • Ramble

    Complimenting her, also fine.

  • Lokland

    @Ramble

    That skit in your 2nd comment pretty much sums up how I was raised.

  • Abbot

    “It is extremely difficult to find any research that correlates N with anything.”

    Few researchers are going to publish anything that will get a hornets nest feminist shit storm dumped on their reputations and personal lives. N is such a heated American female topic that no good could come of correlating it with anything. Note the recent spate of articles on anti contraception and anti abortion where feminists state that the opposition correlates partner count among other things to these subjects.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And that meme is not behind us. The most popular sitcom on the air right now is The Big Bang Theory. The most normal of the 4 guys, Leonard, is constantly referencing the idea that his male desires and interests should either be second to the girls, or be a source of shame.

    I would consider Howard the most normal and he is being pushed around by mom and now by wife (or both depending on the episode) and he was portrayed a bit like a perv for wanting to “do the coitus” with hot females in a consistent basis, he even trying to learn negs…didn’t worked very well, so your point still stands, Leonard seems to be the one most guys identify themselves with though.
    I would like to add that both shows have the same creator:, Chuck Lorre I wonder if he is trying to tell us something.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Desi

    My sense is it would be lower for under 25′a and over 35′s. Ground zero for second-wave feminism is now around 30.

    Could very well be, I don’t know how the numbers break out by age AND marital status. The General Social Survey website allows anybody to fix and match these variables and come up with their own correlations. I might try that sometime.

    I’ll admit right now to misreading the CDC/Census numbers earlier. 6% of currently married women had 15+ lifetime partners. They don’t break out the 7-14 partner category numerically, but assuming an equal distribution amongst those 8 numbers, that would be another ~9% (10-14 partners). So, about 15% altogether. Still relatively uncommon. My mistake!

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “Topics I have overheard guys discuss openly in my home, in coed company:”

    And you’ve also made clear how important non-judgmentalism is to you. Based on my extensive experience as a professional educator, I’m saying that teenagers want to know where the boundaries are. They’ll push you and young women (as will young women push you and young men) as far as it takes to find out where you set them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      Based on my extensive experience as a professional educator, I’m saying that teenagers want to know where the boundaries are.

      They do, but that’s already been communicated to them in explicit sex ed classes. The girls engage in these conversations with complete comfort, and there is much laughter all around. The level of ease between girls and guys is promoted by their hanging out in coed friend groups very comfortably, something I never did growing up.

      We’re not in Generation X anymore, and we’re certainly not going to see anything that looks like the Boomers did.

  • Desiderius

    J,

    “She is very prudish and freaks out, which makes her all the more fun to mess with.”

    This is a dominance game. The young will test their elder’s dominance to see if its time to take over yet. The most natural thing in the world. Competent elders know how to keep their cool and maintain (ideally, amused) authority. When they do so, everyone, young and old, are more comfortable.

  • Desiderius

    Both behaviors are not that far removed from shit testing.

  • Desiderius

    Megaman,

    “Still relatively uncommon. My mistake!”

    And I’ve made clear that female promiscuity is at most a tertiary concern for me. The biggest threat there is unrestricted alpha male promiscuity, as it impedes assortive mating and makes the whole society waste too much time and energy on (negative-sum) dominance games.

    The fact that 80% of males have restricted sociosexuality suggests that those societies characterized by restrictive sociosexual norms dominate those without them in the long run. Monogamy beats polygamy. The betas will win, the question is whether they will be our betas or someone else’s. One hopes that question will not be decided on a battlefield…

    Where there is a problem on the female side is in setting and encouraging (I’m no more enthusiastic about enforcement than Susan or J) restricted sociosexual norms, which has traditionally been the alpha female role, creating an environment where beta males can develop sufficient status to attract and inspire their counterparts in the MMP, and taking sufficient interest in the lives of beta males, whether sons or prospective partners.

  • Desiderius

    “whether it’s a function of churchgoing or something more pervasive in the culture”

    LOLZ. What churchgoing? It’s the feminists doing the shaming of male desire. Of course men who were raised going to church or in some other way enculturated to follow societal norms are most susceptible to the norms shaming male desire set by the feminists, but it wasn’t the church per se doing this.

    It was second-wave feminism (in their great crusade against male privilege – they aimed at the alphas and hit the betas), so of course you missed it. I got it full blast during my quest for the MR degree (among other things) at Princeton 2001-04. The Vagina Monologues enjoyed an extended standing ovation from a packed house when it was performed at the Seminary in 2003. It was even worse among the sophisticated post-Christian set at the University.

    When I compared the Sexual Revolution to the French Revolution, second-wave feminism was the Terror. That’s what I was talking about.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      LOLZ. What churchgoing? It’s the feminists doing the shaming of male desire. Of course men who were raised going to church or in some other way enculturated to follow societal norms are most susceptible to the norms shaming male desire set by the feminists, but it wasn’t the church per se doing this.

      It seems as if most of the men here who feel most strongly about having been shamed as males were raised in evangelical Christian churches, that’s why I was wondering.

      I would have expected the opposite – very conservative churches that promote female submissiveness and abstinence rejecting Second Wave feminism completely.

  • HanSolo

    @HerrKaiser

    Agree about the power that a woman can wield with harnassed yet feminine “wiles” and sensuality and subtle sexuality.

  • Desiderius

    “Jason is Jewish. The evangelical set seems to have been particularly affected, though Ted is Catholic.”

    The difference is class, not variety of religious experience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      The difference is class, not variety of religious experience.

      Why would that be?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    @ Emily, I’m also going to add that the betas who go for reformed sluts are also responsible. As Susan has shown, there are plenty of non-sluts to go around. If the men *actually* want good girls then they should prove it.

    I don’t know how else the Betas here can describe it to you that N matters. That even the guys who say N doesn’t matter still say N matters and that even Tom, the ultimate “consider something besides N” guy, isn’t a “slut-chaser.”

    Tolerate does not mean accept.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @Dr. Desi
    I’ll defer to you and Mr. Escoffier on macro-social-philosophical observations. It’s certainly an interesting way of distilling cultural trends down into something “organic” and manageable. But I see too many moving parts independent of each other, different classes, demographics, disparate priorities, and diversity of opinion (certainly as compared to 1950 or even 1960) to get any clear sense of what society’s tangible trajectory is. I just don’t have a clue, for the most part. It’s hard enough to classify or predict anything with much certainty. There probably never will be a truly homogenous America again, for better or for worse. And there’s certainly a very pronounced ethnic/cultural component to all these statistics. I’ve been reluctant to point out those aspects, as they really aren’t that relevant @ HUS.

  • Ramble

    And there’s certainly a very pronounced ethnic/cultural component to all these statistics. I’ve been reluctant to point out those aspects, as they really aren’t that relevant @ HUS.

    Really?

    Time and again Susan has said that she focuses her advice on white UMC girls since that is what she knows best. It would seem to me that knowing the differences between the races and SEC’s would be really instructive, especially at a place like HUS.

  • Ramble

    I would consider Howard the most normal

    You’re kidding.

    The show, for the first few seasons, went out of it’s way to show him as being creepy. And, to solidify the creepiness, showed that he was often unable to understand how uncomfortable he was making Penny and other girls.

    Either way, not that important.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    The show, for the first few seasons, went out of it’s way to show him as being creepy. And, to solidify the creepiness, showed that he was often unable to understand how uncomfortable he was making Penny and other girls.

    As off now I meant. He had a lot of character development but the overbearing single mother, his relationship with Bernadette and his relationship with his coworkers (no to mention his lack of PHD) make him more average than Leonard who has a robot mother, is a doctor and has probably the highest count of girls in the whole show, aside from Raj but Raj is a lucky Indian bastard. I’m thinking the whole thing.

    Either way, not that important.

    The big bang theory is always important :D

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    Really?

    Though I wouldn’t call this place “too white”, it ain’t my castle. The Queen can do as she likes.

    However, just looking at the raw numbers… if there’s one demographic group that truly encapsulates both low N and a pro-family attitude (and good looks, IMO), it’s Hispanic-American young women.

  • Ramble

    As off now I meant. He had a lot of character development

    Oh, OK. I can get on board with that.

  • Ramble

    if there’s one demographic group that truly encapsulates both low N and a pro-family attitude (and good looks, IMO), it’s Hispanic-American young women.

    They are big fans of illegitimacy as well.

  • Desiderius

    HerrKaiser,

    “Borrowing from Martin Luther; we must beat in to the people’s heads that they must go into strict training and make their bodies and hearts slaves to their will and bind their wills to their minds.”

    This is a non-starter. You’ve seen how it drives Susan into the welcoming arms of a status quo that markets itself as non-judgmental, when in fact the guardians of that status quo are just as authoritarian as what you advocate, just in the service of some monumentally perverse norms. They’re our loco parentes.

    They maintain that status quo by by convincing the anti-authoritarians (i.e. a wide swath of this society, due to our being a nation descended from immigrants fleeing authority abused) that your authority is a greater threat than theirs, and that you would turn the clock back, which is the ultimate sin in a society that holds progress as its ultimate birthright and marker of identity.

    In contrast they (the forces of PC) only hold the clock still at 1968, which isn’t the best, but beats going back to Luther or Victoria or Franklin or wherever.

    There is a majority to be had in fighting against the forces of PC, but only in the name of challenging their illegitimate authority, not in setting up another in its place. Of course some new sources of authority will then inevitably rise, but legitimate authority must always be about real creation (hence the “author” in authority), and thus contain something new, not just a reinstatement of the old.

  • Ramble

    Raj is a lucky Indian bastard

    How so? He is always complaining about being lonely and he, literally, can not talk to girls.

  • Desiderius

    Megaman,

    “with much certainty”

    Well that’s not happening. And yet we must make due with what we have. Among the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    They are big fans of illegitimacy as well.

    Hey, take the good with the bad, classic tradeoff. It doesn’t mean you can’t land a gorgeous, college-educated Latin Lady who doesn’t have kids yet. I happen to know a few of them. Even in this one demographic group, which is hard to define (who’s Hispanic, who’s Latino?), there’s a big difference in the statistics for native-born, 1st generation, 2nd generation, etc.

    This is why I don’t like treading in these waters. :neutral:

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    They are big fans of illegitimacy as well.

    Ouch that hurts…is sort of truth but that hurts.
    I will say that if you control for income their rates are lower than other races on the same level of poverty. That counts for something.

    How so? He is always complaining about being lonely and he, literally, can not talk to girls.

    It seems that his thing is that any drunk girl in a 3 miles radius ends up sleeping with him.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raj_Koothrappali#Relationships

  • Ramble

    This is why I don’t like treading in these waters.

    Also,someone might get offended, and we can’t have that.

  • Esau

    I’ve only watched the first season of BBT on disk, but from what I saw there I thought Leonard was the very dictionary illustration of “beta orbiter”. He worship’s Penny’s attractiveness but doesn’t engage her personality much; he’s always looking for ways to help her out and do her one-sided favors, even at considerable personal cost; he’s constantly hoping that she’ll be taken with his good qualities, and is ever on the lookout for a positive IOI from her; and even after she tells him outright that she has a history of going for jerks, he doesn’t use that information to alter his approach at all but instead consoles and reassures her that she’s really a good person. Has anything on the checklist been missed?

    And yet, Leonard is clearly set up as being the sympathetic main character that the audience is supposed to identify with — and the show’s popularity suggests that many can and do! What does that tell us?

  • Ramble

    It seems that his thing is that any drunk girl in a 3 miles radius ends up sleeping with him.

    That’s true. His drunk game is tight.

  • Cooper

    @Susan
    “Happy Thanksgiving, Canuck!”

    :) Thanks.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I’ve only watched the first season of BBT on disk, but from what I saw there I thought Leonard was the very dictionary illustration of “beta orbiter”. He worship’s Penny’s attractiveness but doesn’t engage her personality much; he’s always looking for ways to help her out and do her one-sided favors, even at considerable personal cost; he’s constantly hoping that she’ll be taken with his good qualities, and is ever on the lookout for a positive IOI from her; and even after she tells him outright that she has a history of going for jerks, he doesn’t use that information to alter his approach at all but instead consoles and reassures her that she’s really a good person. Has anything on the checklist been missed?

    He and Penny end up dating and breaking up and then dating again though the have a Ross/Rachel situation which IMO makes the show boring I usually skip them. I’m a proud shamyer! :D

    And yet, Leonard is clearly set up as being the sympathetic main character that the audience is supposed to identify with — and the show’s popularity suggests that many can and do!

    I think this is another Kirk/Spock situation (for nonnerds in the audience Kirk was written as the ladies man and favorite but Spock was the most popular one and the one most female fans sent love letters and marriage proposals when the show was airing) Leonard was written as the audience avatar but that had been changing I think they are spreading the love specially towards Howard for the reasons stated above since Penny and him are going in and out and that is going to get tiresome (I also think that the resolution will be to have Penny to become more educated to be able to relate to Leonard best since she seems to want him when he is with someone else but gets bored in the relationship and he already learned a lot about human female mating rituals with her so is her now to be bit more on his level, just a theory I might be wrong) and they won’t consummate Shamy for a while (titillating bastards!) so Bernadette and Howard will be the couple to root for. There is a difference between being the most relatable and being the ones most people tune in and I think people tune in for Sheldon more than for Leonard.

    What does that tell us?</i.

    I think it could be many things, it might be that it says is something we already discussed since any other approach by males is penalized and only the Alphas approach people is clinging to Beta orbiting as a valid way to meet and keep girls and given that USA women rather have no men approach than having to learn and reject an unattractive guy on their own (the horror!). But then it could also mean the other way around that the nerdy subculture is growing and given the shortage of nerdy girls having sort of normal girls accepting this guys is going to be more widespread? The episode where Penny realizes that Howard's creepiness is not born out of malice but out of an absent father and the fact that he grew out of it enough to actually get married might mean a bit of a lesson for the females in the audience.
    The guild (webseries created by Felicia Day) had a similar arc with Zaboo Indian guy that had no social cues whatsoever and shows up in the Codex house to move in with her to live their supposed "love" he hits all the Beta orbiting and creepy signs but she in spite of that recognizes that he also has lack of males in his life sets him to stay around the leader of the guild and they eventually grow a friendship. So who knows there is other people attacking the Beta male issues from another angle.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    Also, someone might get offended, and we can’t have that.

    We’ve already got one giant slippery slope to go down: gender differences. Maybe HUS doesn’t need any more than that…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We’ve already got one giant slippery slope to go down: gender differences. Maybe HUS doesn’t need any more than that…

      In my experience, when race is introduced it takes over completely. It is relevant to the extent that there are distinct subsets in the SMP. For example, I have published the following data before:

      Median Sexual Partners (CDC)

      Female:

      Mexican American 1.7
      White 3.7
      Black 5

      Male:

      Mexican American 4.7
      White 6.2
      Black 12.5

      Big differences there, and Megaman is right about Hispanic women.

      BTW, high N is not necessarily found among women with OOW births. For example, reading the article about Jessica Shairer, it was clear she’d had two long-term boyfriends, one of whom produced three kids. For all we know, her N is 2.

  • J

    @SW #562

    LMAO. The best comment I ever overheard happened in my rec room while I was in the laundry. One of my older son’s friends was attempting to convince the group that his penis was the biggest. Best retort was “Dude, you’re the oldest. If yours isnt the biggest, something’s wrong.” It was followed by, “Oh shit, I think Jaysson’s mom is in the laundry. The best comment to my face came after I refused to let a kid use the shower in DH and my bathroom and suggested the shower in the basement instead. The kid said he didn’t want to because ke knew my sons had drowned millions of my grandchildren in there. I shrugged and said, “Oh well, at least they cleaned up afterward.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      For some reason, my kids have always thought that when they are in the backyard with their friends, we won’t hear any of their conversation. I cannot tell you how many fascinating and hilarious conversations I’ve heard clearly because they were spoken on the patio in summer, clearly audible through the open windows.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Desiderius
    I am not sure where you are going; modernity is made possible by enlightenment, but you cannot have enlightenment without first having reformation; the system of Calvin, Zwingli, and Knox (to a lesser extent Luther) is what created Reformation and made the enlightenment possible; as Toynbee said, “Civilization is born in order, grow in liberty, and dies in chaos. There must be a basic ethical and moral framework binding upon all men for a society to function; my emphasis on the Calvinist system because it is a system of self-disciple, rather than external discipline. Moreover, again it was as a result of the growth of Calvinist thinking that the West was able to make great achievements and to make any achievements that set it apart from its contemporaries and predecessor civilizations; if the West hopes to survive in any sense beyond Bangladeshi poverty, would it not make sense to rediscover the source of it prior success. We can see that the Chinese have had outstanding success in turn away from Marxism and returning to classical (and not, thank God, neo) Confucianism; meanwhile the Indian continue to ape White Western Liberals like dumb monkeys with ruinous results. The example from India shows that we cannot hope to “import” a model for social organization and be successful; we must go back to are most basic foundations; I am not naive; I don’t not believe that such a thing will happen, but I don’t believe it is impossible either.
    The weakness of the princes of the present day, caused by an effeminate education and want of instruction, makes them regard the maxims of the ancients as inhuman, or impossible of application. – Niccoló Machiavelli, The Discourses. 1517.
    I believe in one thing only, the power of human will. – Joseph Stalin

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That’s true. His drunk game is tight.

    He should write a book! :D

    Quote fail!

    What does that tell us?
    I think it could be many things, it might be that it says is something we already discussed since any other approach by males is penalized and only the Alphas approach people is clinging to Beta orbiting as a valid way to meet and keep girls and given that USA women rather have no men approach than having to learn and reject gently an unattractive guy on their own (The horror!).
    But then it could also mean the other way around that the nerdy subculture is growing and given the shortage of nerdy girls having sort of normal girls accepting this guys is going to be more widespread?
    The episode where Penny realizes that Howard’s creepiness is not born out of malice but out of an absent father and the fact that he grew out of it enough to actually get married might mean a bit of a lesson for the females in the audience. A man creeping you out is not a criminal or a hopeless loser that will never be datable, sort of meme. The show creators might be diabolic enough and really if reality TV is out there brainwashing our kids brains why not some manipulation on the side good? I’m all for that!
    The Guild (webseries created by Felicia Day) had a similar arc with Zaboo Indian guy that had no social skills whatsoever and shows up in the Codex house to move in with her to live their supposed “love” she manifested during all his raids, he hits all the Beta orbiting and creepy signs but she in spite of that, recognizes that he also has lack of male in his life and he is essentially a good boy and sets him to stay around the leader of the guild and they eventually grow a friendship and he even has a girlfriend no Codex. So who knows there is other people addressing the Beta male issues from another angle. Again I take all the help we can get! :D

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Also, someone might get offended, and we can’t have that.

    Yeah hurt feelings is the leading cause of dead among Americans…would anyone think of the children! :D

  • J

    This is a dominance game.

    It sure is.

    Competent elders know how to keep their cool and maintain (ideally, amused) authority. When they do so, everyone, young and old, are more comfortable.

    I got to be local cool mom by subbing off part of my tuition at my kids’ school. I was known among the kids for being smart, authoritative, funny and relatively unflappable and among the staff as having excellent classroom management skills.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Plain Jane

    No, there were Persian and Middle Eastern men in the room who were equally taken by her charms. Oh, and she drove a hard bargin too!

  • Desiderius

    Ana,

    “having sort of normal girls accepting this guys is going to be more widespread?”

    That’s where Safety Not Guaranteed was going. Likely already happening. Maybe getting the alpha males jealous will get them (us?) back onside.

    HerrKaiser,

    “I am not naive; I don’t not believe that such a thing will happen, but I don’t believe it is impossible either.”

    Your lack of faith is ultimately naive, given the history you accurately recount. It will happen, one way or another. Likely to require new wineskins, however.

    “The weakness of the princes of the present day, caused by an effeminate education and want of instruction, makes them regard the maxims of the ancients as inhuman, or impossible of application. – Niccoló Machiavelli, The Discourses. 1517.”

    The only mistake here is the word “present“. It is a constant weakness of the principalities and powers that hold sway in any given time.

    “I believe in one thing only, the power of human will. – Joseph Stalin”

    And so was the Pope able to muster sufficient divisions to bury him and his legacy.

    Just another dipshit alpha.

  • Desiderius

    “Yeah hurt feelings is the leading cause of dead among Americans…would anyone think of the children!”

    And so are their (social) immune systems prevented from fully developing.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    And so are their (social) immune systems prevented from fully developing.

    Yeah do think that this culture of “keeping people comfortable at all times” makes them weaker and more prone to buy stuff like “You are ugly if you don’t have the perfect armpits” and/or “You are a loser if you don’t have a date every friday night with the local hottest chick” If you don’t know to to deal with negative feelings is easier for other people to manipulate you by using the smartest threat of discomfort in order to keep you at bay…are we going back to the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories? It seems I had been falling into them a lot lately.

  • Emily

    >> “HUS is not the place for men to swallow and digest the Red Jawbreaker. That big red Fireball burning a hole in your tummy? Work it out somewhere else.”

    In all seriousness, why doesn’t somebody start up a “Red Pill Lite” blog? The fact that these discussions keep coming up here suggests that there’s a huge demand for it.

  • HerrKaiser

    I am doubt that we will see a reversion to Calvinist values; it would be cure to all are ill, but it would stretch most men of the present generation to their mental limitations; remember, even a champion of Calvinist like Max Weber called the “The Iron Cage of Rationalism”. More to the point, it would not bear fruit immediately; there is exactly a hundred years that separates the death of John Calvin and the full blossom of his ideas as a system of governance in the form of Cromwell’s Protectorate in England. Given that over the next hundred years we face the extreme likelihood of Asian, that is Confucian, supremacy; it is more likely the West will wallow in its rot like Islamic Civilization; remembering a glorious past that no foreigner will admit; trying to console ourselves with faded memories of past splendor.
    As for the effeminacy of our times; it is a rather late development and is a sign of rot; it does not affect all peoples and all times equally; the Romans regard compassion as a character flaw. It was the Reformers who had the will and evidence (in the form of the bible) on their side; the Pope had faith and dogma. Stalin, whatever else that may be said about him, did transform nations (the member countries of the Soviet Union) of illiterate innumerate superstitious substance peasant in to industrial worker and a superpower in thirty years; while fighting a world war in the middle of it all. Stalin; a dumb alpha? I believe Stalin was the greatest humanitarian to ever live.
    A prince, therefore, must not mind incurring the charge of cruelty for the purpose of keeping his subjects united and faithful; for, with a very few examples, he will be more merciful than those who, from excess of tenderness, allow disorders to arise, from whence spring bloodshed and rapine; for these as a rule injure the whole community, while the executions carried out by the prince injure only individuals. – Niccoló Machiavelli, The Prince. 1537.

    The people, often deceived by an illusive good, desire their own ruin, and, unless they are made sensible of the evil of the one and the benefit of the other course by someone in whom they have confidence, they will expose the republic to infinite peril and damage. And if it happens that the people have no confidence in any one, as sometimes will be the case when they have been deceived before by events or men, then it will inevitably lead to the ruin of the state. – Niccoló Machiavelli,

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan.

    Is being a Daddy’s Girl the opposite of being a girl with Daddy issues?

    Suzan-deary, your guess is as good as mine. Now couch that question in a few invectives, imply you don’t believe it, and let the manosphere debate the hell out of it as was done with solipsism … we might just learn something … now remember that circle-jerk won’t work this time … rather try vampires, gargoyles, or what Barny Frank says when he must read Hustler Magazines for therapy … good girl.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marellus

      You are hilarious. Please tell me you slay the ladies with that cocky funny thing you’ve got going on.

  • Sai

    @szopen
    “I think every language can be beautifull when spoken with love :)”
    Aww, that’s nice.

    @HanSolo
    I like the sun analogy. It never occurred to me to actually think of sex while interacting/communicating.

    @Mike C, tsimmons
    I guess it’s time for me to quit being as cold, then…

    @Desiderius
    “As far as hotness goes, 1 of 3 is a great rule”
    What are the 3?

    @Sassy
    I will save these instructions and develop the guts to use them one day.

    @Anacaona
    I still can’t believe this myself, but the conventions I go to have a lot of nerdy girls. Every symphony I’ve been to has been the same way. (Oddly enough, there is a shortage of attractive women when I visit the (???) Museum but the men there are no prizes either.) Maybe it’s just where I live but pretty girls will come running if it involves Star Wars or Schubert.
    Tomorrow after I fight with the PC I will upload a photo of myself.

    “we just don’t do it in a way that actually harms people but there is a whole industry devoted to make it as realistic as possible and people devote hours of their lives to enjoy the effects of simulated Roman arena.”
    Who wants to watch “The Running Man?” :D

    @Emily
    I saved your advice too… I guess I feel more comfortable saying stuff here because I can be as honest as I please and not have to worry about screwing up eye contact.
    (I admit I have been thinking of trying a corset, but that’s mainly for support.)

    @HerrKaiser
    “her tone of voice and facial expression were hypnotic.”
    How did she look? How did she speak?
    (While on the subject of speech, can anyone explain a”sultry” voice? I thought that described a temperature but according to my mother it also is used for voices that I claimed sounded like men trying to pass as women and failing.)

    PUNISH THE PEDOS. There’s never a good excuse for some things.

  • szopen

    @Susan Welsh
    Please remove my comment #602. After a second thought, this could turn into a flamewar, and I would hate to be pollute your excellent blog with such a thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @szopen

      Please remove my comment #602. After a second thought, this could turn into a flamewar, and I would hate to be pollute your excellent blog with such a thing.

      As you wish, but I just want to say how much I appreciate your consideration of what HUS is for!

  • Sai

    “We’ve already got one giant slippery slope to go down: gender differences. Maybe HUS doesn’t need any more than that…”
    If it’s something that’s been proven by science though, no one can complain about sexism (or so I’d like to think).
    http://listverse.com/2010/08/02/10-cases-of-natural-gender-inequality/
    (I haven’t seen this one posted yet.)

    “The kid said he didn’t want to because ke knew my sons had drowned millions of my grandchildren in there.”
    First I was horrified at this… then I laughed hard.

  • Orlando

    Iggles, the problem with your dating concept, that of women going out on dates works out for women but not for men. Most women will accept to go on a date because of the free food and attention. I asked a girl who’d be considered by most to be below average and she accepted. But the whole to time was texting her beta orbiters. She wasn’t interested in me , nor was she interested in spending tinned with me. Now I only ask hot babes 10 out. I’m not going to get laid but at least my mates won’t make fun of me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But the whole to time was texting her beta orbiters. She wasn’t interested in me , nor was she interested in spending tinned with me.

      Having a phone out is the number one complaint among daters. I wouldn’t object to someone’s standing up and leaving if their date started texting. If for some reason the phone must be out or used, e.g. babysitter, that should be disclosed up front so as not to offend.

  • Desiderius

    HerrKaiser:

    “the Romans regard compassion as a character flaw. It was the Reformers who had the will and evidence (in the form of the bible) on their side”

    Have you ever even read Paul’s letter to the Romans?

    Sorry, HK – way off topic, way off base.

  • Desiderius

    Orlando,

    “I asked a girl who’d be considered by most to be below average and she accepted. But the whole to time was texting her beta orbiters.”

    Hypogamy doesn’t work, either direction. You’re disrespecting her, so she disrespected you.

  • Orlando

    Mrs. Walsh. Roissy and roosh and so forth claim laying 10′s when the women are stuck at 5 comes from the refusal to accept that average guys have to be masters of game to get a sliver of attention,, and the women are invariable average. There are no puas in my college. Why would that be so.

  • Orlando

    Desidirius, I don’t see how I wasn’t respecting. She is below average but I didn’t ask her on a date because ugly = easier to lay or something. I invited for 3 reasons. She was raised in south Korea. I wanted to practice what I learned from class. She plays Starcraft 2. And she loves dub step. I was attracted to her, true, and I wasn’t going to try to sleep with her(Courtesans exist for a reason) but I did become a bit dishearten over how invisible I was to her. Hence my deduction. Why pay for the involuntary company of a 3-4 when I can be seen with yet another woman who would pour down water on me if I was burning – and I don’t get called homo and bullied like I was in HS by the jocks. Just trying to survive each day a time, man.

  • Maggie

    “I would have expected the opposite – very conservative churches that promote female submissiveness and abstinence rejecting Second Wave feminism completely.”

    They exist, but I think the women might be scared to come on a site called “Hooking Up Smart.”

    This is how I was raised, but I got over the submissive and inferior part.

  • Orlando

    Mrs. Walsh. Cocky-funny only works when the guy is hot or is an accomplished master of puatriy. I developed a pretty tight game over the years on many different below average and average girls to no avail. Only dark game seems to work but I’m not going to risk a sexual harassment suit over a woman. I’m not that beta, heh.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Mrs. Walsh. Cocky-funny only works when the guy is hot or is an accomplished master of puatriy.

      I disagree, cocky funny makes guys hot. I have seen naturally witty but not very attractive guys do extremely well with women. The Class Clown type in high school is usually very popular. Seth Meyers credits his success in getting girls to this “blind spot God gave women.”

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Jason is Jewish. The evangelical set seems to have been particularly affected, though Ted is Catholic.”

    Well FWIW I wasn’t raised “in a church”, but I was sent to Cath0lic school from grades 1 through 6. However, I can’t say that any of this was something taught to me in school, other than perhaps the learned guilt associated with being Catholic in general. (you are born a sinner, you will die a sinner, you will always be a sinner…) So they laid the groundwork for the massive sense of guilt I felt as a young man when I found myself “lusting” after a woman. The actual feminizing mostly came from my family. Now when I was very young, (single digits) I spent my days with my grandmother while my mother and grandfather worked. She was born and raised in Paris, and moved to the States when she was 17 and married my deployed grandfather. She had rather laid back approach when it came to nudity and the body in general, but sex was a VERY taboo subject. My mother got burned by a guy early on, and I was the result. I suspect her motivations for turning me into a “nice guy” revolved around her desire to make sure I didn’t turn out like dear old dad. Both of my aunts were married when I was a young child, but both ended in divorce before I made it through high school. The majority of my “information” on women came from my mother, grandmother, and aunts. By all accounts the only one of the four that had a successful marriage was my grandmother, who got involved in that part of my life the least. My mother NEVER had a relationship (to this day in fact) that lasted more than a few weeks, and those were few and far between.

    Since I’m writing a short story here, I’ll add a little bit more. Late in my 15th year on the planet, I met a girl that was 17 and graduating from my HS. We were both shy and rather introverted, but both played instruments. We hit it off and it turned into a 4 year relationship. Somehow I had come to the conclusion that although it was still a “sin” to have sex out of marriage, it wasn’t NEARLY as bad IF that sex was with a girlfriend you intended to marry. So, at 16 years old I lost my virginity to my first “serious” girlfriend. In my mind I was going to marry her once I got older, so it was OK. Just before my 20th birthday we broke up. She was two years older, and was talking about marriage. I wasn’t even old enough to drink and it bothered me. The end result was her cheating with a hard core PUA type (I say “type” because “Game” hadn’t been developed yet. However, he was a “natural” in the respect that he just knew how to work women.) He had befriended one of my friends, and hung around us a lot. His shtick was to “prove” that all women were trash, and he set about doing that by screwing them, dumping them, and then pointing out how easy they were to get into bed. (nice guy, right?) He actually had the nerve to tell me to my face he did me a favor after it all went down. I actually agreed, because any women that would so easily cheat couldn’t be trusted. At least my friend dropped him and I didn’t have to deal with him again. From there I went on to another 4.5 year relationship, with a young women I again intended to marry. I was three years older, and it ended because at 25 I was ready to “settle down”, and she had just turned 21 and wanted to go to Vet school and move away. We parted ways and I spent about 9 months single. (the longest stretch I’ve been single since the day I turned 16) I met my ex through a band mate (she was his sister and came to pick him up from practice when his car broke down…) She was 20 and had a baby, but she was hot in a Tom Boy kinda way (I tend to like Tom Boy types to be honest, All of them were into sports and outdoor activities…) and she seemed genuinely interested in something long term. As I said, at 25 I decided I needed to “settle down” (some of that came from my family telling me it was time to grow up, some of it was me trying to find myself motivation TO grow up.) We got married three days after I turned 26, and it lasted about 13 years. I remember as we got closer to the wedding day, she had some doubts and considered calling it off. Of course I flipped out and talked her into going through with it. (So this article would have been VERY useful for me. LOL)

    There were tons of warning signs, but I had NO idea what they were or what they meant. I wasn’t looking to marry for the right reasons, and neither was she. (I wanted to “grow up” and she wanted the safety and security of being married for her and her daughter) We made a go of it, but we were both ill equipped to deal with each other (I had very little practice dealing with individual women, and her mother had passed away when she was 15 of cancer, and didn’t have a mother to talk to her about boys or relationships at all.) I was determined to make it work, because I made the commitment and said those vows before God and the Church. I believed she felt the same because she came from a highly religious family as well. But in the end, her desire to eject was higher than her religious convictions it seems, and we ended up divorced.

    Not a pretty story at all. But perhaps it will shed some light on my particular flavor of angst regarding marriage, commitment, and how important “vows” are these days. It also serves a bit to explain my background. I can’t put a finger on one thing and say it is why I am who I am because I think it was a combination of things that together made me who I am. Perhaps Deti or some other men here might see some similarities, or they might chime in and add their own story. I can tell you that of my HS male friends, about 1/3rd seemed to have a similar issue but for different reasons. I can remember feeling OK with how I was acting because I wasn’t the only “supplicating beta” type guy around.

    “It was not my perception at the time that they were shamed for normal male instincts”

    While I was in Catholic school, I had to go to confession twice a month. We were instructed to BE SURE to tell the Priest if we were doing anything “immoral” with ourselves, which is to say that they KNEW the boys were masturbating, and made us feel like shit for it. Don’t even get me started on “ogling young women” as we were often told how awful we were for looking at women with “lust” in our hearts.

    Desi – “The difference is class, not variety of religious experience.”

    I think you are right here that it is primarily a “class” thing. All of my friends in HS were from poorer MC families. I also have to wonder if there is a little “old world” mentality in there as well. My grandfather was born in Poland and came here as a child. My grandmother was born and raised in Paris as I said above. My entire extended family was VERY old world from politics to strict child rearing.

  • pvw

    @ Susan….CDC info on median partners…..Hmmm, I wonder, what was the source of their stats…people with diseases, ie., stds for which the govt. gathers those stats…people who visit public health clinics….?

    Re. daddy issues…isn’t it the argument that daddy’s girls have fewer issues than those who idn’t have that type of nurturing bond? Yet, there are arguments (V. Segunda, Women and their Fathers)…that if the bond is too emotionally close, it is more difficult for her to find a replacement in a husband who can provide that nurturing energy…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      Re. daddy issues…isn’t it the argument that daddy’s girls have fewer issues than those who idn’t have that type of nurturing bond? Yet, there are arguments (V. Segunda, Women and their Fathers)…that if the bond is too emotionally close, it is more difficult for her to find a replacement in a husband who can provide that nurturing energy…

      Yes, that makes sense. Idolizing one’s father, or being ignored by him are both red flags for future mating. Sadly, the two often go hand in hand.

      Re the CDC, they conduct an annual National Survey of Family Growth covering virtually all aspects of American sexual behaviors. Here is an excerpt of the methods from 2002:

      Methods—The 2002 NSFG was conducted by the Centers for Disease Control
      and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and is based
      on in-person, face-to-face interviews with a national sample of 12,571 males and
      females in the household population of the United States. The measures of sexual
      behavior presented in this report were collected using Audio Computer-Assisted
      Self-Interviewing (ACASI), in which the respondent enters his or her own answers
      into a laptop computer without telling them to an interviewer.

  • Abbot

    Female:
    Mexican American 1.7

    Big differences there, and Megaman is right about Hispanic women.

    ______________

    Now, don’t go helping American women discover their sexuality (wink) and then rush off into Latin America just to skirt around promiscuous women. That is lame, rigs the system, infuriates feminists and we will have none of that!

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Susan and J, your households are entirely alien to me.

    I really didn’t discuss sex with friends enough that anyone could have overheard, because nobody was having it… but also because we weren’t allowed to have piles friends over. And even if we managed to, we would have gotten busted so hard for being vulgar, they all would have gotten kicked out. It would have been treated no different. High school for me was studying, staying at home at night, working part time jobs, and after-school activities. No “hanging out” in a group of kids with no purpose other than horsing around.

    Then again, your “beta” guys have an N 2-3x the median for their age. So who’s normative?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Susan and J, your households are entirely alien to me.

      I really didn’t discuss sex with friends enough that anyone could have overheard, because nobody was having it… but also because we weren’t allowed to have piles friends over. And even if we managed to, we would have gotten busted so hard for being vulgar, they all would have gotten kicked out. It would have been treated no different. High school for me was studying, staying at home at night, working part time jobs, and after-school activities. No “hanging out” in a group of kids with no purpose other than horsing around.

      I believe our kids’ experiences are typical. I can’t say whether this is because they are of a different generation, or whether your own experience was atypical back in the day.

      It is perhaps not surprising that all of this coed socializing led to some hooking up and relationships.

      FWIW, those friendships, forged mostly in middle and high school, are largely still intact, though they obviously get together less frequently 6 or 7 years later.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Eh, I wasn’t raised in a stereotypical conservative church family, really. Went to church on Sunday and that was about it. Parents were not Jesus freaks, and really didn’t discuss religion with me at all. My dad never went to church except on holidays. It was all very lukewarm Christianity, but I did believe it at the time.

    Howver, all Christian churches are pretty clear on the “no fornication” and, sex, dating, or attraction was never discussed, ever… so, it was obvious to me that the entire topic was entirely taboo. You had to hide it, all of it, and be entirely asexual. So that’s where the “shame” comes in, even if there is no overt shaming.

    Oh, my half-brother was a lothario type, who fucked older babysitters and my parents both hated him, so there’s that. Jesus Mahoney and I have that in common…

  • Ted D

    I’m with OTC in that I wasn’t allowed to have friends over. It wasn’t “necessary” and on the rare occasions I did, it was a single friend and we had to be out of site and quiet.

    I would NEVER have talked the way you describe around my mother or grandmother because I would have received a hard smack to the mouth. My grandfather surprised a friend and I one day our senior hear when out of the blue he walks outside my house and says: “if all you bonus do is think about pussy you’ll never get anything done.”. Seems his bedroom windows was open and he heard us talking about girls.

    That was the ONLY advice I got from a male family member about women. By that time my grandfather was the only adult male left in my immediate family as both my aunts were divorced.

  • Escoffier

    I had friends over all the time but the idea that we would talk about sex within earshot of anyone’s parents was just unthinkable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I had friends over all the time but the idea that we would talk about sex within earshot of anyone’s parents was just unthinkable.

      That’s what has changed in 25 years.

  • Ted D

    Good grief I truly suck at using a touch screen. Apologies for all the mistakes above. I normally can’t spell for shit, but I usually do a pretty good job of finding the mistakes.

    I feel like this must have been how my grandparents felt when they got their first VCR with a clock on it. That damn thing was always flashing 12:00. I tried to show them how to set it, but they both told me there were plenty of clocks in the house that were right. *shrug*

    All I know is Apple seems to think THEY know better what I want to say than I do. Do you think I would come across as more audience friendly if I just let the iPad correct everything to what it thinks I want to say?

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    Big differences there, and Megaman is right about Hispanic women.

    Hell hath frozen over…

    I specifically said Hispanic-American (or Latina) women, by the way. And Susan’s correct, N doesn’t tell you everything, but that’s what tends to happen when a population of young women tend to have children relatively early.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Megaman

      I specifically said Hispanic-American (or Latina) women, by the way.

      I know you did, but for some reason the NSFG split out Mexican American women. I figured it was close enough to make the point.

  • Ted D

    Susan – I would say that the atmosphere at your house is pretty close to mine, other than the fact that our children are still too young to be discussing actual sex. But, my wife and I are both very open with them and try to promote an environment where they feel safe talking to us. Both my wife and I came from families where sex and sexuality was NOT discussed in the open, and we both feel like it contributed to how screwed up we became as young adults.

    J – I don’t know how old these boys are at your house, but our two are 13 and what you are experiencing seems to be pretty common. My wife’s son is the oldest and trying to establish is “pecking rights” in the house, which means he likes to give me shit. I’m good with it, and tend to get the upper hand most times. He REALLY likes to reply to me with things like “your mom!” to which I reply: “Dude, I sleep with your mom every night of the week. Do you REALLY want to go there?” He blushes and I chalk another point up for me. ;-)

    I’m expecting it to get MUCH, MUCH worse as they get older, but I’m prepared. My wife is actually rather sad that her “baby boy” is starting to mouth off a little at her. (nothing major at all or I’d kick his ass, but he IS trying to set some hard boundaries and push hers.) Perhaps this is a tougher thing for mothers to go through than fathers. I’m actually a little proud of our boys for starting to show some backbone, and just a little hopeful that it is a sign of good things to come.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW
    Re: Ethical Promiscuity (however that’s defined).

    I remember good ol’ JM used to advocate something like that, for men only of course. He had his personal reasons, I suppose. It’s a tough thing to sell, especially here.

    What’s ironic is, even “The Ethical Slut” herself Janet Hardy (whom I don’t particularly admire) advised being totally up-front and honest with the people you want to sleep with NSA-style. And that’s from the enemy, a *woman* who advocated non-monogamy. What could be more “ethical” than that? I’m not sure why guys would object to such a simple, basic standard. :mrgreen:

  • Ted D

    “That’s what has changed in 25 years.”

    If that was the only change, things would be peachy. :-p

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    I doubt it’s really changed over 25 years, but rather correlates to the populatrity, extroversion and openness of your natural family dynamics. I simply won’t be able to intentionally provide the environment that you did for your kids, it either happens or it doesn’t… beyound our control.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I doubt it’s really changed over 25 years, but rather correlates to the populatrity, extroversion and openness of your natural family dynamics.

      May I ask why you doubt that it’s changed? Certainly the culture has changed dramatically in that time. Guys and girls hang out in groups – there is little pairing off, except generally within the group. Kids are far more open about topics in general, and offer their opinions readily – we no longer tell kids they should be seen and not heard.

      Ted talked about getting smacked across the mouth. The one time I grabbed my son by the shoulders – hard – he threatened to call DSS (he was 8). I can’t imagine hitting my kids.

      Kids get very, very explicit sex ed in middle school today. Perhaps not explicit everywhere as in Brookline (which includes a LGBT unit providing how-to’s for fisting and other practices).

      As to my family dynamics, my daughter is an extrovert, though several of her close friends who spent time at our home are introverts. My son is an introvert, as are most of his friends. In both cases, hanging out in groups of 6-10 close friends on a weekend night was ideal, and it was rare for them to attend large parties.

      It’s not possible to address the culture of 1985 today. It’s long gone, and something else has taken its place.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I still can’t believe this myself, but the conventions I go to have a lot of nerdy girls. Every symphony I’ve been to has been the same way. (Oddly enough, there is a shortage of attractive women when I visit the (???) Museum but the men there are no prizes either.) Maybe it’s just where I live but pretty girls will come running if it involves Star Wars or Schubert.

    Interesting. Had you tried to count the ratio? Even if there is one girl for every boy there will be one boy left for you anyway…think about that.

    Tomorrow after I fight with the PC I will upload a photo of myself.

    Unless people is throwing rocks and you and running the other direction in fear I’m pretty sure your self image is probably wildly distorted.

    Oh, my half-brother was a lothario type, who fucked older babysitters and my parents both hated him, so there’s that. Jesus Mahoney and I have that in common…

    Except that in the case of JM his mother didn’t hated his brother in fact I think she preferred him and he used that power to abuse him.

  • J

    First I was horrified at this… then I laughed hard.

    I’m here to please, Sai.

    I really didn’t discuss sex with friends enough that anyone could have overheard, because nobody was having it… but also because we weren’t allowed to have piles friends over.

    Half of what they say is BS, but I one reason allow mobs of kids in my home so that I can overhear what they are saying. It’s also a safe place for them and keeps them off the streets.

    I cannot tell you how many fascinating and hilarious conversations I’ve heard clearly because they were spoken on the patio in summer, clearly audible through the open windows.</i.

    And yet these are the same a-holes who, after hearing the slightest peep through your bedroom door, will angrily inform you that voies carry. ;-)

    High school for me was studying, staying at home at night, working part time jobs, and after-school activities. No “hanging out” in a group of kids with no purpose other than horsing around.

    OTC, my kids have productive non-play experiences like study, music, sports, congregational involment, part-time work and Sunday schooling teaching. They still need some downtime with their buds. Having these kids over at my home gives me knowledge and control of that downtime.

    He REALLY likes to reply to me with things like “your mom!” to which I reply: “Dude, I sleep with your mom every night of the week. Do you REALLY want to go there?” He blushes and I chalk another point up for me.

    LMAO, Ted.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan

    You are hilarious. Please tell me you slay the ladies with that cocky funny thing you’ve got going on.

    … weeell … there was this one time on FB ,when I got drunk (and banned) for talking about cunnilingus on a Christian forum …

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Desiderius
    I was referring to ancient pagan Rome, not late antiquity Christian Rome; the statement about the reformers was unconnected. However, I will say that the reformers were the first in Western Christianity to view compassion as holding people accountable for their actions and exhorting them to “active” achievement and personal development; hence all the emphasis on dissolving monasteries and not encouraging “beggary”. During the Middle Ages poverty and panhandling was seen as pious and Godly; the reformers were able to banish such ideas from the (Protestant) Western mind; it has come back with a vengeance.
    @ Sai
    I cannot begin to describe the subtleties of her abilities; it was like being hypnotized. As I said before, she was at best a six in looks, but in her presence, after she began to interact, you needed to remind yourself of that. There was no dirty language or double entendre, but she just had it.

  • Doc

    The fact that women divorce for little or no reason, coupled with the way the Family Court system is structured, explains why more and more men are “opting out” of the entire “marriage fiasco”. When a man, through no fault of his own, can be taken to the cleaners at the discretion of one party of the contract, it makes anyone entering into such a contract an idiot.

    It really is that simple…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doc

      The fact that women divorce for little or no reason, coupled with the way the Family Court system is structured, explains why more and more men are “opting out” of the entire “marriage fiasco”. When a man, through no fault of his own, can be taken to the cleaners at the discretion of one party of the contract, it makes anyone entering into such a contract an idiot.

      It certainly sounds simple the way you say it. I have some questions:

      How do you know why women divorce? I’ve had a very difficult time finding information on this topic?

      Do men divorce for little or no reason? Why or why not?

      Can you describe how the Family Court structure is stacked against men? If I’m not mistaken, this happens at the state level. Are the laws the same in all 50 states, or are some states worse than others?

      What does it mean to be “taken to the cleaners” in this context? In what percentage of divorces are men taken to the cleaners? Can a woman be taken to the cleaners by a man, or does the law only allow for females to initiate asset theft against males?

      I have many more questions about Marriage 2.0, but if you could get me started I am really anxious to understand. Thanks!

  • INTJ

    @ Anacaona

    Unless people is throwing rocks and you and running the other direction in fear I’m pretty sure your self image is probably wildly distorted.

    QFT!

  • Jonny

    “The fact that women divorce for little or no reason, coupled with the way the Family Court system is structured, explains why more and more men are “opting out” of the entire “marriage fiasco”. ”

    There is no evidence that men are opting out based on divorce alone. I learned that divorced men have remarried at higher rates than divorced women.

    It is true that less men are marrying in general, but this is largely due to a smaller pool of eligible women. Women focusing on career (higher status too), delaying marriage until after 30, and less fertility thus less incentive to marry.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doc

      via Jonny:

      There is no evidence that men are opting out based on divorce alone. I learned that divorced men have remarried at higher rates than divorced women.

      Interesting. Are there any statistics or studies that quantify how many men are opting out of marriage? Most male Millennials still cite marriage and fatherhood as an important goal in life. Is there a marriage strike, and if so, where?

      We know that the declining marriage rate reflects a much higher rate of cohabitation. What role do women play in the decision making process?

      What is the impact of 20-something women making more money and having more professional positions than men? There’s been a great deal of talk about the lack of “marriageable men” in the population – can we assume that women are rejecting a greater percentage of men for marriage?

  • Ted D

    Johnny – “There is no evidence that men are opting out based on divorce alone. I learned that divorced men have remarried at higher rates than divorced women.”

    As a guy on his second marriage, don’t put TOO much stock in this data. Divorced men tend to be older (mid 30′s on up) and probably tend to stick with what they know. I am 42 and recently remarried, and part of it is because marriage is how I view commitment in a LTR. We lived together for a few years, but once I decided I was staying with her long-term, I simply wanted to frame the relationship in terms I was familiar with, which meant marriage. I said elsewhere that to me, living with her until one of us died seemed very degrading to me, as if she simply wasn’t good enough to marry. I know that logically that makes no sense, but I’m an old dog, and I’ve learned more than enough new tricks to get me into my 50′s.

    So, guys remarrying might not be so much about men’s positive outlook on marriage and might be much more about older men wanting to be in their comfort zone. YMMV

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, guys remarrying might not be so much about men’s positive outlook on marriage and might be much more about older men wanting to be in their comfort zone. YMMV

      This doesn’t really make sense. If they are most comfortable being married, they obviously bring a positive outlook to the institutution.

      People vote with their feet. It’s ludicrous to say that men are increasingly opposed to marriage as they eagerly run out and wife up #2.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Ted talked about getting smacked across the mouth. The one time I grabbed my son by the shoulders – hard – he threatened to call DSS (he was 8). I can’t imagine hitting my kids.”

    I had that threat tossed at me. You know what I told my kids when they pulled this? “Go ahead and call CYS. I bet you’ll LOVE living in a foster home with who knows how many strange kids. You’ll also get to share everything with them, because I’d imagine foster parents don’t have the money to buy each kid their own PC and PS2.”

    Its amazing how much better they listened once they realized I wasn’t afraid of them calling the authorities. ;-)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I had that threat tossed at me. You know what I told my kids when they pulled this? “Go ahead and call CYS. I bet you’ll LOVE living in a foster home with who knows how many strange kids. You’ll also get to share everything with them, because I’d imagine foster parents don’t have the money to buy each kid their own PC and PS2.”

      Some friends of ours had a terrible situation occur. In a fit of anger, the dad reached out and punched his teenage son in the upper arm. The kid wrote about it in his journaling exercise in English class. The teacher read it and called DSS. The son was removed from the home, and for several months the case was tied up in court as social workers and a judge decided whether the parents were fit.

      Of course, this only matters if you actually care whether your kids do get placed in foster care.

  • Jonny

    @TedD: The data is helpful, not irrelevant. The fact is men are remarrying despite the divorce.

    I am in the same situation as you. I was dumped by first wife in my early thirties. I didn’t remarry until 10 years later in my forties. The people who should be dissuaded weren’t. I had an ugly divorce. She was nasty and made what could be an amicable settlement agreement into a horrible fight for nothing. No material benefit was denied. She only wanted to exercise her power play to manipulate me and the lawyer.

    I did enjoy the marriage at times, but I supposed I needed to pick better.

    Men ARE marrying less for the reasons I laid out. It isn’t about the divorce. We have known this for years. The issue is a smaller pool of eligible women and it keeps getting smaller.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “This doesn’t really make sense. If they are most comfortable being married, they obviously bring a positive outlook to the institutution.

    People vote with their feet. It’s ludicrous to say that men are increasingly opposed to marriage as they eagerly run out and wife up #2″

    the men of my age group do NOT hold the same views as younger men. I don’t see my boys and their friends viewing marriage the way I did at their age. I imagine their idea of marriage will be completely different than mine, and most likely it will be that marriage is highly optional. For me, marriage was a given part of being an adult.

    Older men = probably will stay married or remarry
    Younger men = more likely to never marry and less likely to remarry.

    make sense?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Younger men = more likely to never marry and less likely to remarry.

      make sense?

      Not really.

      Gen Y is late to the wedding but wants marriage

      “Millennials or Generation Y generally includes those born between 1980 and 2000. This is the first generation to come of age with social media, instant – even constant – Internet and phone connection, and relaxed pressures to marry early. It is responsible for terms like “hooking up” (nonrelationships known to previous generations as one-night stands) and “friends with benefits” (a sexual relationship without emotional involvement).

      While Millennial courtship rituals are distinctly different from those of previous generations, say those who study the scene, survey after survey indicates that Millennials do want to be married, they do want the house in the suburbs and the kids.

      But they also want to be careful – they are postponing marriage longer than any generation before them.

      “Millennials believe in marriage and lifelong commitment but are also more relaxed about sex, dating, and living together” than their Generation X and boomer parents, says Pamela Smock, a professor of sociology and director of the Population Studies Center at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.”

      But Millennials do fear divorce. However, rather than avoid marriage, they’re being extra careful and waiting longer:

      “Test-drive” and “rent-a-marriage” were terms that came up fairly often – especially among men – during the focus groups and in-depth interviews Smock conducted as part of her research into cohabitation.

      …Andrew Cherlin, a professor of sociology and public policy at Johns Hopkins University and author of “The Marriage-Go-Round,” says that because Gen-Y grew up during the high-water mark of divorce, they have a strong desire not to experience what they either endured as kids or saw happening to families around them.

      Andrew Schrage, single and 25, agrees. He is co-owner of the Chicago start-up Money Crashers Personal Finance, a financial education website. Men of his generation have a sense of “guardedness” about marriage, he says, “because they see the potential disastrous effects that divorce can have on one’s personal, professional, and financial lives. I almost feel like marriage has become more of a strategic decision, when it used to be a much more emotional one.”

      But researchers say there’s little risk of a return to a time when marriage was largely a business relationship, rather than a romantic endeavor.

      “I think for this generation there’s definitely the ideal of a romantic relationship,” says Rhoades. “They do aspire to that but also feel the pressure to go about it in a practical way.”

      “I’m very pro-marriage. But I’m also very worried about divorce – it’s one of my biggest concerns,” says Maggie Ryan, a 20-year-old college student in Boston.

      Your concern about less educated Americans is once again well placed:

      “Postponing marriage until it can be done well is a story of economics as much as it is fear of divorce, says Professor Cherlin. College graduates take longer to marry because they are investing in school and careers – to give them a sound financial footing as adults – and eventually most of them will marry, he says.

      That’s not the case for high school graduates who don’t go to college.

      “What’s happened to our economy is that the kinds of jobs that used to sustain a working-class marriage have disappeared, like manufacturing jobs,” says Cherlin. “Even young people that have found work aren’t making as much as their parents did, so they are less likely to marry than college-educated people.”

      “Despite all their caution, alternative living arrangements, and fears of divorce, Millennials seem to invest hope in a happily-ever-after that includes marriage and children. While 63 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds in a TIPP poll for the Monitor in January said they believe most marriages are not happy, 77 percent want to marry before having children and 80 percent said they believe that marriage makes a relationship stronger.

      “Marriage as a goal or an idea, everyone still buys into that,” says Cherlin. “But Gen-Y buys into it later.”

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Re: Kaiser the Kalvinist and the Persian woman

    When I was still at the University, a PhD from Ukraine came over to give a seminar. She was in her 60s but she had all the men eating out of her hand. Think Dame Maggie Smith as the Countess Dowager from Downton Abbey, except looking softer and less imposing, like Emily Delahunty from My House In Umbria (I am a great and permanent Maggie Smith fan – since her Miss Jean Brodie days).

    The American harpies, the feminist Political Officers as we had learned to call them, were doing a slow burn at this heretic who was obviously an accomplished woman who seemed to enjoy being a woman and enjoyed the attentions of men.

    I think it has something to do with embracing the differences between the sexes, and realizing that gender essentialism may have a card to play after all. The gender-as-social-construct crowd may have made life more tolerable (although I have serious doubts) for all the outliers, the nipped and tucked transman or transwoman, the not-quites, the sissy boy or the manly girl, but they have effectively gelded our official culture and rendered it as fruitless as a steer or a capon.

  • Ramble

    It’s ludicrous to say that men are increasingly opposed to marriage as they eagerly run out and wife up #2.

    Here is how I like to put it: A significant percentage of men are afraid of marriage. A significant percentage of men are more afraid of being alone.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Here is how I like to put it: A significant percentage of men are afraid of marriage. A significant percentage of men are more afraid of being alone.

      As long as that’s the case, then marriage as an institution is not in trouble.

      Also, I wonder if that exact sentiment hasn’t always been prevalent among men.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Of course, this only matters if you actually care whether your kids do get placed in foster care.”

    Well my goal wasn’t to sell them on the idea of it!

    I know of a couple that went through hell because they took in a friend who needed a place to stay for awhile, and long story short he had drug paraphernalia in the house that was found by the police. CYS (not sure what DSS is, but Child and Youth Services does this stuff here in PA) investigated and found the couple to be completely fit parents taking good care of their children, but the kids had to stay with grandma for a little over a week before it was all sorted out.

    I”m not making light of these types of situations, but I’ll be damned if a 9 year old is going to scare me into knuckling under when it comes to discipline. If I can’t keep my children in line, then I can’t raise them. If the state thinks they can do a better job, well, my wife spent some time in foster care, and she seems less than impressed with what the government constitutes as a ‘good place for kids to grow up’.

    Besides, my kids weren’t going anywhere. They had their own rooms, their own computer (I started building PCs in 1992. As soon as they showed interest I built them one myself, so they didn’t have to use mine!) their own TV, and later on their own gaming systems. In their eyes, they had far more to lose than gain by following through with the threat. For parents that aren’t in the position to have that upper hand? It is unfortunate, but *I* would not want my children in my house if they weren’t following my rules. It doesn’t matter how much I love them or want them. What matters is if I can’t control them to my liking, then I’m failing as a parent and it will show when they become adults.

    all that being said, I’ve rarely had to smack my children. Mostly when they were younger and couldn’t be reasoned with. Now? It is much better to simply control their behavior through reward and remove: reward good behavior, remove stuff they like for bad behavior. It is a side effect of having semi-spoiled children that I now have lots of things to take away from them that they really want.

  • tsimmons

    I’d like to comment on the low-N vs. high-N discussion here.

    To me, the issue isn’t a woman’s N, as much as it is the type of guys she’s been with before.

    If a woman has been with 10 alphas, and suddenly wants to date me, I’m going to assume there’s some sort of calculation going on – “Uh-oh, I’m getting older, time to stop dating the guys I really am attracted to and find some beta schmuck to pay my student loans!” When someone changes around their dating pattern on a dime, I’m inclined to think they’re insincere.

    So the question to me isn’t, “Was this woman a slut at 18 or 25?” It’s “Would this woman have dated me when she was 18 or 25?” If the answer is no, I’m not interested. And that would be true if her N was 2 or 3.

    OTOH, if someone’s N is 10 but it’s 10 guys essentially like me but things didn’t work out, that’s different.

    Making it all about “sluttiness” is wrong, to me, because it implies that sexual activity somehow “stains” a human being, and I honestly don’t think that’s true. I don’t think you’re “stained” if you slept with every alpha on your campus and in your city post-graduation – I just feel that if I was the type of guy you would have rejected in the past, I’m calling “No backsies” in the interest of not being taken advantage of.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @tsimmons

      I just feel that if I was the type of guy you would have rejected in the past, I’m calling “No backsies” in the interest of not being taken advantage of.

      Believe it or not, you’re the first guy to ever share that view here, but it makes a lot of sense, for guys who aren’t focused on the number. I agree that an about-face or total change up in strategy is cause for suspicion.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Your concern about less educated Americans is once again well placed:”

    Honestly unless I say otherwise, you can mostly assume that when I am posting, I’m talking about the poor or LMC-MC, because I truly do not know what your world looks like at all. In my pond, I am one of the big fish. Not trying to boast, but it is important to understand if you want to get where I’m coming from.

    We’ll see where it goes once my children hit 18 on up. My daughter has said that she does not intend to have children, but will consider adoption. However, that hinges on if she wants to marry or not, and at this point she seems to be on the fence at best, and leaning away from marriage at worst. My boys are too young for any of that thinking, but unlike me at their age, they really don’t see marriage as something they have to do, and other than that they don’t even give it a thought. At 13, I already knew I wanted to marry and have kids. No question about it in fact.

  • Abbot

    ” that’s what tends to happen when a population of young women tend to have children relatively early.”

    That is precisely why N is such a voracious topic in the US. Women do not want to have children early and they are PUSHING the resultant higher N as inevitable. If that N-inevitability does not get normalized and therefore acceptable the result for women is potentially very negative. The stupid “sex positive” crap and denoting men as insecure are all part of that “you better change guys” propaganda campaign.

  • Ted D

    Tsimmons – “If a woman has been with 10 alphas, and suddenly wants to date me, I’m going to assume there’s some sort of calculation going on – “Uh-oh, I’m getting older, time to stop dating the guys I really am attracted to and find some beta schmuck to pay my student loans!” When someone changes around their dating pattern on a dime, I’m inclined to think they’re insincere.”

    What? You’ve never heard a woman telling her new BF that the reason HE is so different from her past guys is that they were ALL WRONG for her, she just didn’t realize it until she met him?!

    I’ve seen several guys buy that crap hook, line, and sinker. Shit I believed those women too, but thankfully I wasn’t dating them.

    “So the question to me isn’t, “Was this woman a slut at 18 or 25?” It’s “Would this woman have dated me when she was 18 or 25?” If the answer is no, I’m not interested. And that would be true if her N was 2 or 3.”

    Well in that case, you aren’t interested in a lot of women out there I’d say, unless you are a “natural” or some other mythical creature that garnered lots of female attention in high school.

    “Making it all about “sluttiness” is wrong, to me, because it implies that sexual activity somehow “stains” a human being, and I honestly don’t think that’s true. I don’t think you’re “stained” if you slept with every alpha on your campus and in your city post-graduation – I just feel that if I was the type of guy you would have rejected in the past, I’m calling “No backsies” in the interest of not being taken advantage of.”

    But here is the deal: to me that IS being “stained” by casual sex. The fact that they bedded alphas IS the stain. I agree with you that if one of those women comes sniffing around you for marriage, you should pass them by. But, unlike you, that behavior is actually proof of the damage done by casual sex to me. If they had managed to control their urges, they would not have sexed up alphas and would not NEED to “calculate” anything later in life.

    The stain is that they acted on their baser instincts instead of learning to control them. I’ve said before the actual N is less important to me than how she got that N in the first place.

  • Jonny

    “At 13, I already knew I wanted to marry and have kids. No question about it in fact.”

    Ted: You knew at 13? Wow. I didn’t know if I wanted to marry until I did, BOTH TIMES.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    I honestly don’t think the culture has changed that all much. High-school kids in 1985 were certainly hanging out in mixed-sex groups, outside of school activities. I can open my yearbook or look at Facebook to see. Heck, hasn’t teenage N gone *down* since then? My point is the social groupings inside your home are probably more based on your (and J’s) willingness to provide them, and that’s a function of you, not your kids; and overhearing topics on sex are what you allow to happen in your home. Ted and Esc and I would have gotten busted for that, even if we were allowed to have friend groups, so we never brought it up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My point is the social groupings inside your home are probably more based on your (and J’s) willingness to provide them, and that’s a function of you, not your kids; and overhearing topics on sex are what you allow to happen in your home.

      Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying. It’s true – like J I have always been happy to be “base camp” for my kids and their friends. Partly because I was home, and partly because if they were here I knew no one was drinking, smoking pot or having sex. That got more challenging as they got older (my daughter’s friend lost her virginity in my house, ugh!) but we were able to keep close tabs on them for the most part.

  • Abbot

    “If a woman has been with 10 alphas, and suddenly wants to date me, I’m going to assume there’s some sort of calculation going on ”

    Given the trickle-down-dick effect common among such men, you can bet there are few average attractive women who have not gone there and probably numerous times over say a 10 year period. That may not impact how she thinks about herself but since that would take a super woman chances are she’s pretty much ruined for men in her league.

  • tsimmons

    If they had managed to control their urges, they would not have sexed up alphas and would not NEED to “calculate” anything later in life.

    But it’s not their urges that are the issue. It’s who they had the urges with. It’s the direction of their desire and not the desire in general.

    I had a girlfriend in college who had lost her virginity to her high school boyfriend. That guy had no alpha tendencies; he married his own college girlfriend, and he’s a solid citizen (he’s a reporter for a daily newspaper in a large city in the South). After dating me for three years (another solid citizen) that girl ended up dating and marrying a guy who went to West Point who is pretty much the definition of a non-alpha solid citizen. So that girl’s N is 3, and if her Facebook status changed to Divorced one day I’d have to consider sending her a PM.

    OTOH, if I come across a girl whose N is 2, but the other two guys are Russell Brand and Jesse James, and she flirts with me while frantically checking her face for wrinkles in the mirror, I’m going to think something untoward is up.

    It’s spiteful, ultimately, but it’s the good kind of spite. I don’t want someone who would have rejected me when her value was high to try to snag me on a drive-by when her value is shooting down. That’s because I’ve met her before (so to speak), and I didn’t like it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      OTOH, if I come across a girl whose N is 2, but the other two guys are Russell Brand and Jesse James, and she flirts with me while frantically checking her face for wrinkles in the mirror, I’m going to think something untoward is up

      This cracked me up, you have a way with words. Totally agree, btw.

  • tsimmons

    Sorry, I really only put in half my argument in that last post.

    Consider the woman in the first example. Not attracted to alphas; not a lot of hookups in college. But say for some unfortunate circumstance, she doesn’t marry guy #3. Maybe HE doesn’t want to get married. Maybe he meets somebody else. (Heck, if you move that relationship forward 15 years, the guy might have gone to Iraq instead of getting married.) And this girl ends up having three more non-alpha relationships in her 20′s. Each of them last three years. Guy #1 relocates to another city for his career. Guy #2 won’t commit. Guy #3 ends up having an affair with someone he meets at work.

    So all of a sudden the N here is 6. With no alpha-ing, with no carousel.

    So, stained or not stained?

    I have to go with “not stained” here, because Life Happens.

    Now, if these additional 3 guys were Motorcycle Gang Member, Neighborhood PUA Barfly, and NBA Shooting Guard with Kids by Five Moms, that’s entirely different.

    Because it’s the nature of the guys and not the number of the guys that lets me know if I’m being suckered by a fading female alpha.

  • JutR

    Susan, to chime in with Mike’s post at 542, I am in a similar age range, and I was quite inundated with the message that male lust was impure, and should be controlled, and to indulge in it was disrespectful to wholesome, nice girls.

    I want to reiterate that what Mike is saying was very much my perception, and I worked very hard to redirect the urges to ‘more positive outlets’. This is not some imagined message, this was given through parents, school and media. To demonstrate lust was to be creepy. You were normal if you were respectful, kind, and not pushy. We were to keep in mind that approaching a woman with obvious sexual interest would make her feel uncomfortable, and that it really wasn’t polite. You should always be friendly, aggressiveness was disrespectful and made women anxious and fearful.

    My mom was religious, but my Dad was not, and I was not raised in a church. I was a sensitive young man, with no sisters, and the message was universal from role models and society.

    So, handicapping the conscientious young men with silly notions like this made many of my generation start from well behind the normal starting line.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JutR

      So, handicapping the conscientious young men with silly notions like this made many of my generation start from well behind the normal starting line.

      Thanks for sharing that – I do not doubt the truth of any of your claims.

      Do you think that this has gotten worse, or perhaps better for young men? If a kid is 15 now, is he being shamed for lust? I don’t think it’s the case where I am, and this is the most liberal/feminist state in the country. In a way, I think the sex-positive message has made it ok for men to objectify women sexually – and they often don’t even need to, as the girls will objectify themselves.

  • Abbot

    “it’s the nature of the guys and not the number of the guys that lets me know if I’m being suckered …”

    Men get laid. They can only be so selective. Women are selective because they can be. Therefore its appropriate to quietly JUDGE them by what they selected. To say that their priorities change is nice and cutesy. To say that men should or need to understand that is just plain arrogant. Women never get to decide what qualifies as wife material. Are they beginning to understand that?

  • Ted D

    Johnny – “Ted: You knew at 13? Wow. I didn’t know if I wanted to marry until I did, BOTH TIMES.”

    Like I said, getting married and having kids was simply a fact of life for me according to my family. I really didn’t see any reason to disagree since it was the lifestyle I’d grown up expecting as normal, despite the fact that my own upbringing was far from it. Not many single mothers in 1970…

    TSimmons – “But it’s not their urges that are the issue. It’s who they had the urges with. It’s the direction of their desire and not the desire in general.”

    I disagree. It is the lack of control OF those urges that is the root of the problem. Nothing wrong with HAVING those urges, LOTS wrong with acting on them badly.

    “So all of a sudden the N here is 6. With no alpha-ing, with no carousel.
    So, stained or not stained?”

    IMO not stained. Like I said, HOW she got to her N matters more to me than the actual number, well up to a point.

  • Abbot

    When a man commits to a woman different than all his prior sex hits – their looks, lifestyle, attitudes, etc – the chosen woman knows he chose her for love and is not settling since sooo many of these other types of women are available for marriage too.

    When a woman goes for a man who is clearly not as good looking, socially dominant or just plain alpha – the “chosen” man knows she chose him because she couldn’t get what she really wanted since nearly all of those other types of men are not available for marriage, at least not to her.

  • tsimmons

    When a man commits to a woman different than all his prior sex hits – their looks, lifestyle, attitudes, etc – the chosen woman knows he chose her for love and is not settling since sooo many of these other types of women are available for marriage too.

    In my experience, men typically don’t change the type of woman they’re attracted to.

    This makes it quite easy to know if they’re sincere or not.

    With my oldest friends, I can predict with reasonable accuracy whether or not they will be interested in a woman by comparing that woman to the girls they dated in high school. Men don’t change. Not as much as women. They get older, but they don’t change.

    I would actually doubt the intentions of a man who suddenly dated a dramatically different type of woman. I wouldn’t assume he “chose her for love”. I’d assume he was in a 12-step program, or he had consciously decided to settle (and I’d have to advise the woman to run.)

    When a woman goes for a man who is clearly not as good looking, socially dominant or just plain alpha – the “chosen” man knows she chose him because she couldn’t get what she really wanted since nearly all of those other types of men are not available for marriage, at least not to her.

    The flipside of that is when a woman has no alpha history, and beyond that has a confirmed history of regarding alphas as d-bags, she can be trusted. At least a little.

    Of course, those types of women tend to be taken. Unfortunately.

    But my question is whether these women are engaging in self-denial (i.e. they really love alphas but discipline themselves to say no) or just naturally don’t like alphas. Personally I would find the latter type of personality more reliable than the former.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Ted: You knew at 13? Wow. I didn’t know if I wanted to marry until I did, BOTH TIMES.

    It might be cliche but I started planning wedding and thinking on kids names since I was 5. I did changed the wedding themes and the names with time but I don’t remember not ever being like my mom at some point and become a mom myself (with married faithful husband of course), I imprinted on marriage and motherhood! :D

  • Abbot

    “In my experience, men typically don’t change the type of woman they’re attracted to.”

    This is true. But when it comes to getting laid, men are apt to make all sort of exceptions. Sluts are on the list for sure, as are psycho women, punks with all manner of tattoos, meanies who swear a lot, chubbies, you name it.

  • Desiderius

    “very conservative churches that promote female submissiveness and abstinence rejecting Second Wave feminism completely.”

    Well, on this one, Dalrock is right on. The dysfunctional subculture of those churches shares a lot more with the dysfunctional subculture of Second-wave feminism than one might think. Lots of resentment, xenophobia, and pedestalization of women in both…

  • Desiderius

    JutR,

    “We were to keep in mind that approaching a woman with obvious sexual interest would make her feel uncomfortable, and that it really wasn’t polite. You should always be friendly, aggressiveness was disrespectful and made women anxious and fearful.”

    Yeah, this is Brendan’s sexual zoning thing. That was (and still is, though its being increasingly ignored as are all norms since so many PC norms are seen to be bullshit) the norm enforced by the PCers running the culture.

    If a man is raised to adhere to societal norms, which of course includes most churchgoers, but goes far beyond that since most progressive post-Christian communities also raise their sons this way, then he’ll be vulnerable to it.

    It’s the Sexual Harrassment Indoctrination guilty until proven innocent all men are potential rapists thing.

  • Desiderius

    “Having a phone out is the number one complaint among daters. I wouldn’t object to someone’s standing up and leaving if their date started texting.”

    Given the lack of clear norms in this area, perhaps a friendly offer of mutual disarmament (both putting the phones away for awhile) wouldn’t be a bad precursor to walking out if the offer is refused.

    On the other hand, my students know they’re doing something wrong if they’re texting in class. Doesn’t stop them from trying it, but they don’t feel offended when I gently suggest they stop. They then do stop and don’t often try again.

  • Desiderius

    HerrK,

    You got some good things to say if you can break them into smaller chunks and work on connecting them to the topics at hand. Also, no Stalin.

    “I am doubt that we will see a reversion to Calvinist values”

    Oh we will; the question is whether we’ll see them in ourselves or among our rulers. I’m seeing some of it in the rising generation already.

    For those reading along and curious as to what we’re talking about, see the Kuyper lectures on Calvinism.

  • Desiderius

    The problem I see with high-N women around 30 is that they think of the N and the experience gained as a positive, and often that self-perception leads to a patronizing attitude toward men with a lower N than themselves, even if they intuitively sense that such a man would make a better long-term mate.

    Part of this is the pluralistic ignorance of gender differences. FOr a woman, a man’s N often serves as a proxy for status, so even if she’s worried about him straying, it is an attractor for her. For a man, a high-N in a woman will never be a plus, as her ability to bed men is not nearly as impressive as a man’s ability to bed women.

    Now, the comfort level with the opposite sex and understanding of what she’s looking for and what she can offer that comes with that experience for a high-N woman (that she could have gotten without sex as long as she kept herself attractive and interested – my grandmothers’ approach) is in fact a positive, but any positive that leads a woman to become patronizing toward men will make relationships, especially committed ones, difficult for her.

  • Tasmin

    @JutR
    “Susan, to chime in with Mike’s post at 542, I am in a similar age range, and I was quite inundated with the message that male lust was impure, and should be controlled, and to indulge in it was disrespectful to wholesome, nice girls.”

    Yep. You can count me in that camp as well. “Respect” was often used as a vehicle to stamp out, shame, subdue, redirect, etc. male-sexual aggression. Perhaps aggression is to strong, even just the male perspective or desires were viewed with suspicion and distrust. Practically anything that originated from the male mind was inherently disrespectful and we (boys) needed to be constantly vigilant that we were not making any woman feel “uncomfortable”, “threatened”, or in any way marginalize [her] power, voice, presence, etc.

    The message was so prevalent that it was just a hum in the background, certainly not something up for debate, discussion. One of the many frustrating things about growing up during all of that nonsense was that I am introverted, shy, and was a very late-bloomer physically, so I really didn’t need any additional reinforcement of the barriers between me and women. The whole nice-guy, high-character thing was pounded into my by my parents as well. Even as a young man I saw how little that twinkled the eyes of the girls. In their moms’ eyes, definitely, but in theirs? nada. Not until College. And by then, all of those disconnects are solidified. It takes a long time for a man to break down that kind of programming.

    What always struck me was despite all those messages throughout the feminist indoctrination was that reality still managed to plod away in the foreground. Dominant males, bad-boys, extroverts, physically larger boys/men – alpha however you define it, were still asserting their will, garnering the attention of the majority of women. Those guys were certainly getting pounded with the same message but either they had the internal fortitude to ignore it, the external truth-coaching from parents as an antidote, or were just blindly going with the natural biological and social drivers – or some combination.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Those guys were certainly getting pounded with the same message but either they had the internal fortitude to ignore it, the external truth-coaching from parents as an antidote, or were just blindly going with the natural biological and social drivers – or some combination.

      I wondered about this. I think my own beta son lucked out with the truth-coaching from us. It would be really interesting to see what percentage of young men have absorbed this message and to what degree.

  • Ramble

    Your concern about less educated Americans is once again well placed

    Less educated, or less intelligent?

    Are we talking about people who are as intelligent as their better educated neighbors or people who are, simply, less intelligent?

    A common theme nowadays is simply to refer to (almost) anyone from a LC and LMC home as being less educated, when it might be prefectly clear that they are less educated for a reason.

  • Ramble

    my daughter’s friend lost her virginity in my house, ugh!

    Do tell.

  • Mike C

    The message was so prevalent that it was just a hum in the background, certainly not something up for debate, discussion.

    This is a perfect description…”hum in the background”. That is how it felt to me. I think it was something that just seeped into every aspect of culture especially movies and TV which served as the main messaging medium for us (there was no Internet in the 80s and early 90s). I remember in the 80s two of my must watch shows were the Cosby Show and Family Ties. Look at the husband on Family Ties. He was almost a kind of neutered man. I bet if I went through the episodes I kind find a ton of examples illustrating what we are talking about.

    One of the many frustrating things about growing up during all of that nonsense was that I am introverted, shy, and was a very late-bloomer physically, so I really didn’t need any additional reinforcement of the barriers between me and women. The whole nice-guy, high-character thing was pounded into my by my parents as well.

    Ha. You and me both. This describes me to a tee here especially the “pounding” from my parents.

    What always struck me was despite all those messages throughout the feminist indoctrination was that reality still managed to plod away in the foreground. Dominant males, bad-boys, extroverts, physically larger boys/men – alpha however you define it, were still asserting their will, garnering the attention of the majority of women. Those guys were certainly getting pounded with the same message but either they had the internal fortitude to ignore it, the external truth-coaching from parents as an antidote, or were just blindly going with the natural biological and social drivers – or some combination.

    Yeah, I think it is sort of an enigma (at least to me) why some guys simply didn’t act in a way that conformed to that cultural message, but thinking back over high school it was clear that the guys who “sexualized” the girls and were not “respectful” were the most successful.

  • HerrKaiser

    @Desiderius
    The leadership of the West is still locked in a post-Liberal (in the classical sense) world view were they espouse absurd ideas about democracy, universal rights, and social justices; when they do stray from the official line it is toward secular Lutheran ideas like Hegel and Kant; so, I doubt we will see Calvinism (or any religious system) reemerge among the elite. Amongst the younger generation it is even harder to see how Calvinism could be attractive; I don’t think many of them have even heard of John Calvin. The only person under 25 I have ever met who had a detailed knowledge of Calvinism (and was also an adherent) was a Nigerian immigrant. Westerners like a warm and cuddly Jesus, not a fire and brimstone God; do you think Joel Osteen would be filling stadiums if he were preaching “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”; “Do you know your God holds you over the pit of hell like a spider over a flame”. No, Westerners like their religion easy, Free Grace remember; but as Luther said, you must first preach the Law before you can preach Grace.
    On Stalin:
    If being a humanitarians means never harming anyone; indulging the masses in their imbecility; and placing the direction of society at the caprice of ignorant and degraded multitudes; than Stalin was as far from a humanitarian as you can get. However, if being a humanitarian means bring people out of ignorance and degradation; leaving a material and cultural inheritance to future generation greater than what you inherited; and providing the fundamental basis for future and greater achievement; then again, Stalin was the greatest humanitarian to ever live.
    “He brought us out of the darkness of nonexistence, shaped us into a polity, made us a world power, and showed the world that we too are human beings.”
    - A former Gulag Prisoner’s comments on Stalin
    The West distaste for Stalin is a reflection of our effeminacy; Stalin got it done by any means necessary and that is how civilization is built and maintained. I marvel with awe at Stalin’s will and accomplishments.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @HerrKaiser.

    The Siren must have an insinuating voice that hints at the erotic, more often subliminally than overtly.

    Almost everyone who met Cleopatra commented on her delightful, sweet-sounding voice, which had a mesmerizing quality.

    The Empress Josephine, one of the great seductresses of the late eighteenth century, had a languorous voice that men found exotic, and suggestive of her Creole origins.

    Marilyn Monroe was born with her breathy child-like voice, but she learned to lower to make it truly seductive.

    Lauren Bacall’s voice is naturally low ; its seductive power comes from its slow suggestive delivery.

    The Siren never speaks quickly, or aggressively, or at a high pitch. Her voice is calm and unhurried, as if she had never quite woken up – - or left her bed.

    - The Art of Seduction by Robert Greene

    So your Persian Siren had an unhurried and low-pitched voice methinks.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    Interesting. Are there any statistics or studies that quantify how many men are opting out of marriage?

    WRT men who choose not to ever marry:

    Nat’l Marriage Project (SOOU) 2002 Report
    Marriage trends in the age range of 35 to 44 are suggestive of lifelong singlehood. In times past and still today, virtually all persons who were going to marry during theirlifetimes had married by age 45. More than 90% of women have married eventually in every generation for which records exist, going back to the mid-1800s. By 1960, 94% of women then alive had been married at least once by age 45 — probably an historical high point. If the present marriage trend continues, some demographers are predicting that fewer that 85% of current young adults will ever marry.

    Nat’l Marriage Project (SOOU) 2004 Report
    Age is yet another important predictor of men’s propensity to marry. Most men will have married for the first time by age 30. Given that fact, one might expect that the men, ages 30 to 34, in this survey sample would be among those unmarried men most ready to commit to marriage. However, a relatively high percentage of these 30-something men are ambivalent or averse to marrying anytime soon. For example, 68% say that at this stage in life they want fun and freedom; 54% say they are not interested in getting married anytime soon; 64% agree “there are so many bad marriages today it makes one question the value of marriage;” and 41% agree that “you can’t trust women to tell the truth about their past relationships.” Only 24% agree that “your most important personal goal is to get married.”

    For a woman looking to marry who has’t *met* her future spouse before he hits 30, tread carefully…

  • HerrKaiser

    @Marellus

    The sound of her voice was not distinct from Persian women in general, but it was how she used her voice and facial expressions. She did speak with a measured pace; she never hurried her words or spoke aggressively; from time to time she would deepen her voice when she said the object in the sentence. I don’t know how to put her into words; I have met many beautiful and sophisticated women; more 10+ women than I can count; women who had Ph.ds in the hard sciences and looked like supermodels; women who were trained from birth to be charming, but she surpassed them all. I was not exaggerating when I said that I thought while meeting her; “if this woman were better looking she would destroy the world”.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Believe it or not, you’re the first guy to ever share that view here, but it makes a lot of sense, for guys who aren’t focused on the number. I agree that an about-face or total change up in strategy is cause for suspicion.”

    Your kidding me right.

    “OTOH, if I come across a girl whose N is 2, but the other two guys are Russell Brand and Jesse James, and she flirts with me while frantically checking her face for wrinkles in the mirror, I’m going to think something untoward is up

    This cracked me up, you have a way with words. Totally agree, btw.”

    alpha cock —-> beta provider meme.

    Something you have rejected as a non occurrence and not worthy of consideration but the second the numbers drop into average range its suddenly acceptable.

    PS I agree with tsimmons. This sounds like an excellent screen especially if used in conjunction with N (regardless of the PC’ness, N correlates with divorce, therefore must be avoided)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      alpha cock —-> beta provider meme.

      Something you have rejected as a non occurrence and not worthy of consideration but the second the numbers drop into average range its suddenly acceptable.

      I have never said it does not occur, or that it is not worthy of consideration. If I were a guy and a typical beta provider, and some slutty type looked to me for reformation I would certainly be suspicious. I have no idea how much this happens. Honestly, I still believe that alpha chasers stay alpha chasers and go on to write spinster lit, if they’re lucky. But from a male POV, a turnabout like this one should be a non-starter.

      If tsimmons is a very handsome beta, he may be more likely to attract these types – IIRC this is Cooper’s particular problem. Guys in this boat should be especially cautious. However, my guess is that in those cases women are not “settling for a provider,” they’re simply making an erroneous assumption about the wiring of the guy they find attractive.

  • HanSolo

    Are there any men here, young or old, that didn’t get the message that male lust was bad and shameful?

    I have said on this post and many times that I did before, from popular culture, PC attitudes in news and academic reading, family, church and the meme recited by both men and women that men are pigs.

    I think that Susan and J are women that have a more enlightened attitude and realize that male lust is natural and has its pros and cons to be dealt with. Susan, and maybe J, is it possible that since you aren’t male-sexuality shamers that you aren’t as aware of the shame that gets instilled in a lot of young men? What would your sons say if asked about how men’s sexuality is perceived or portrayed, in the media, at school, by the public in general?

    Is it possible that since women don’t feel the direct impact of the sexual shaming directed at men and because it is fairly ubiquitous that it just doesn’t hit their radar?

    It’s possible that things are getting better but I’m not sure. You younger guys like Cooper, INTJ, etc. what are your impressions, both when you were teenagers and now? (I know that INTJ is Indian, from India I think, but at least he can give his POV about the current college scene).

    On the Mormon front I watched a few minutes of their General Conference this weekend and the strict repression was still there. They shame women too but tend to go a bit harder against the men and really have created a big porn hysteria that has helped cause some women to feel very, very hurt for some occasional porn viewing by their husbands and in some cases divorce them primarily for that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Susan, and maybe J, is it possible that since you aren’t male-sexuality shamers that you aren’t as aware of the shame that gets instilled in a lot of young men? What would your sons say if asked about how men’s sexuality is perceived or portrayed, in the media, at school, by the public in general?

      It is very possible. But I do wonder how hookup culture plays into this – how can men feel demonized for their sexuality while the predominant mating culture is urging no-strings sex?

  • HerrKaiser

    INTJ is Indian! Now none of my comments to him make any sense and some might seem borderline racist.

  • J

    I had that threat tossed at me. You know what I told my kids when they pulled this? “Go ahead and call CYS. I bet you’ll LOVE living in a foster home with who knows how many strange kids. You’ll also get to share everything with them, because I’d imagine foster parents don’t have the money to buy each kid their own PC and PS2.”

    I’m not a hitter because I don’t believe in it, but one of the boys pulled that after DH lost his temper and shook him by the collar. I used the foster home threat but back it with a few abuse stories. A lot of scary stuff goes on in foster homes unfortunately.

  • JutR

    Susan: “Do you think that this has gotten worse, or perhaps better for young men? If a kid is 15 now, is he being shamed for lust? I don’t think it’s the case where I am, and this is the most liberal/feminist state in the country. In a way, I think the sex-positive message has made it ok for men to objectify women sexually – and they often don’t even need to, as the girls will objectify themselves.”

    Hard to say, I’m not hanging in high schools much, but I am guessing that the message is still there, perhaps a bit muted, and perhaps a little mocked, since the cognitive dissonance of pedestal-izing today’s women as pure and innocent is hard to maintain, but I am guessing decent men still worry about scaring (creeping?) women out.

    Desiderious: “Sexual Harrassment Indoctrination guilty until proven innocent all men are potential rapists thing.”

    Yep, that’s a vibe that is hard to stomach, especially when you get it from high school, to college, and right to the office, where you thought you might be free of the message, after you just attend that harassment avoidance training.

    Tasmin,that’s a perfect description. I can see how some of my peers normalized the message, and some rejected it with family situations, and some idealized it, but kept coming up short, but we all kinda heard it.

    Mike C:”…Thinking back over high school it was clear that the guys who “sexualized” the girls and were not “respectful” were the most successful.”

    Yep,and we consoled ourselves by saying that those types of girls weren’t of good caliber, and the type of woman that would love us wouldn’t be like that.

  • J

    Almost everyone who met Cleopatra commented on her delightful, sweet-sounding voice, which had a mesmerizing quality

    That and a high IQ made up for the hooked nose.

  • J

    I think that Susan and J are women that have a more enlightened attitude

    Thank you.

    Susan, and maybe J, is it possible that since you aren’t male-sexuality shamers that you aren’t as aware of the shame that gets instilled in a lot of young men?

    I don’t hear a lot of other mothers doing it either.

    What would your sons say if asked about how men’s sexuality is perceived or portrayed, in the media, at school, by the public in general?

    You know, I do try to check out some of what is said here with my boys; they have asked me to stop it.

    They shame women too but tend to go a bit harder against the men and really have created a big porn hysteria that has helped cause some women to feel very, very hurt for some occasional porn viewing by their husbands and in some cases divorce them primarily for that.

    Aside from the church stuff, a lot of women fear porn because they can’t compete with the women or feel degraded by the things women are depicted as enjoying; others resent male addiction to it. My view is that if a husband watches porn and then turns in a bravura performance with the wife, then it’s OK. If he loses the ability to function normally with her, it’s a problem. The post a while back from the young man who couldn’t enjoy P-in-V because he was too conditoned to porn and the tightness of his own fist concerned me.

  • HanSolo

    @J

    “I don’t hear a lot of other mothers doing it either.”

    My mom never explicitly went about shaming sex in saying things. It was more her clearing her throat or going “oh” if a sex or even kissing scene came on tv. She was an equal-opportunity shamer of both sexes. And if you asked her she would emphatically deny that she ever shamed. She would say how she thinks sex is something for marriage but that she never talked about it with us.

    So, I didn’t get any male-focused shame from here, just “neutered” sex shaming.

    The male-focused sex shaming came more from the other sources I mentioned.

    As for the porn thing I agree that excessive use can lead to bad consequences. I just think the Mormons and other similar churches have taken it too far and created more problems than they’re solving.

  • HanSolo

    @J

    As for fearing the competition, I understand that but I am not sure how many men really feel that way. I think some do but they need to get a reality check. Also, a lot of porn actresses are more 6 and 7′s, and of course there are a lot of 8-10′s too. I personally would rather have sex with a 6 in the flesh than a 10 in the hand, so to speak. When I have had a gf and was getting regular sex I just stopped viewing porn all together because for me it’s simply a tool to get excited and then imagine someone I know. The porn itself is never the focus for me. But I’m not sure how other men are. I suspect I’m not average because there’s a lot of anal porn on there now and that doesn’t appeal to me at all. In fact, I’m surprised at how women will ask me if I like anal and I feel like the prude for saying I’m not into it! lol

  • Sai

    @Anacaona
    “Interesting. Had you tried to count the ratio? Even if there is one girl for every boy there will be one boy left for you anyway…think about that.”
    I’ve never tried counting before. I guess I should try that next time I head out.

    @Marellus
    “… weeell … there was this one time on FB ,when I got drunk (and banned) for talking about cunnilingus on a Christian forum …”
    Is there a record of this somewhere or did they delete all the posts?

    @Ted D
    “To me it makes NO SENSE whatsoever to add a third party to an already bad situation, however one goes about adding that third. (cheating, swinging, open marriage, etc.)”
    It sounds like a lot more work than just talking things out with the husband, so I don’t get it either.

    (My mother said if I called the cops she would be out of jail before I was out of the hospital. One reason I can’t have kids is that I know I would pass that along to them with interest.)

    @Mule Chewing Briars
    I googled “gender essentialism” and got alternate doses of rabid crazed misandry and concentrated Red Pill… Does it begin with genuine liking of occupying a female body, less logic/more feelings, etc.?

    @HanSolo
    Why IS anal so popular nowadays? Don’t they know that… *insert disheartened microbiology rant here*
    Well, maybe someone’s found a way to make it safer.

  • Ted D

    Wow. Listening to the guys here tell thier stories is almost creepy. We all pretty much suffered the same sexual oppression yet it mostly went under the radar of the women growing up around the same time. (Figuring J and Susan are around my age)

    So what does this mean? While boys were being shamed girls were being told they could be anything they want? While boys were being “broken” girls were being built up?

    To all the guys posting: thanks. It is rather comforting to know I’m not crazy and that other men experienced the same things.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I got the same shaming message as well and I’m only 27. I originally came online looking for answers not to learn how to score more chicks but just to figure out if I was completely crazy or if I had magic glasses that let me see something I wasn’t supposed to. I felt like Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live.

  • J

    It was more her clearing her throat or going “oh” if a sex or even kissing scene came on tv.

    My dad used to do that. I think it was a combination of embarrassment and a belief that he could keep me out of trouble by displaying disgust over sex. I thoughtr it was stupid–which I’m sure is part of why I don’t do it.

    She would say how she thinks sex is something for marriage but that she never talked about it with us.

    Actually, she should have talked to you in a serious way. It’s one thing for a parent to take an honest anti-pre-marital sex stand, another to shame.

    I just think the Mormons and other similar churches have taken it too far and created more problems than they’re solving.

    Of course.

  • J

    Figuring J and Susan are around my age

    SW has said she’s 55. I’m with a few years of her.

  • J

    As for fearing the competition, I understand that but I am not sure how many men really feel that way.

    I’m sure you’re correct, but I think it’s a common female fear.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    It’s possible that things are getting better but I’m not sure. You younger guys like Cooper, INTJ, etc. what are your impressions, both when you were teenagers and now?

    I am 25 and went through most of my youth thinking that my lust was shameful. There was absolutely no religion in my household: it was outright banned because it was a subject that triggered fights in the extended family.

    I don’t know how I absorbed the message. Somehow I got the idea that there were hyper-sexual zones in society and non-sexual zones. Good guys only go to non-sexual zones and try to be friends first and let the girl dictate the flow of the relationship. Overt sexuality is bad. Be nice and you’ll get the girl.

    My guess is that I really didn’t have a whole lot of positive role models about sex. I “matured” quickly…my first kiss was at 6, I guess, and I tried to put my arm around the girl, but she didn’t want that, and I got yelled at by the teacher. I guess I got the idea that expressing my lust in a girl ended with bad results, so I better suppress it and make it everyone happier.

    Plus, the Hero model seemed so great. Do something important, rescue the girl, then get the girl. Think White Knight, not James Bond.

    It wasn’t until I was, like, 20 that I felt comfortable expressing lust at ALL.

    As of now? Well, you see, a lot of people in society saw fit to screw me over with bad relationship and girl advice, and then insist it was MY fault. They also gave me bad job advice, bad educational advice, bad friendship advice, and in general just never helped out I was bullied extensively and chastised when I fought back. I saw a group of 30-40 6th graders picking on another student and pushing him around, and one of the teachers was LAUGHING at it.

    I was depressed for the better part of a decade, and cried on the train every day down to the city. No one ever helped me. Not once. Well, except for my mother, because one night I took a baseball bat to my entire room and left it a giant wreck, then broke the bat in half. Even then, I just got better at hiding it, and before I graduated college I had a suicide note drafted up on computer.

    For lack of a better word, “society” was absolutely content to watch my life go down in smoldering flames. No one gave a shit.

    Now? Everyone around me is happier when I am in my flirty, social mood, including my girlfriend. I am also happier. My worklife is pretty good: I lead my own team at a Fortune 50 Company, that was surged all the way up to 12 people this past summer, and we accomplished a year’s worth of work in a month, with time left over for big-picture projects. I am on dock for a promotion this month.

    My sexuality is something to be enjoyed and I have no problems with it. 90% of it is reserved for my SO, anyways.

    Anyone who wants to shame me for anything can go fuck themselves.

    My friends, though….yeah, they still don’t think it’s right to approach girls outside of bars or clubs. The girls insist that you have to be friends first.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Ted, I don’t see it as *oppression*, just not being lucky enough to be born into a more male-friendly family, or whatever it you’d call it. My father was a “tamed” alpha, and that probably explains a whole lot. Of course, I have no idea, only fragments of stories, as I honestly know very little about their lives before me. It’s part of that generational wall.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I don’t have anything to add except, is possible for men to state their case and have an honest conversation about the screw ups of society without alienating the female crowd that visits HUS. This conversation is an example of that and I think this is the sort of of “tone” that helps for us to hear the other side of the pond better and can please in a way both genders needs. Don’t aim your issues at women directly, specially your peers, open your hearts and minds and say the truth, the Whole Truth, Nothing But the Truth.
    Just my two cents.

  • HerrKaiser

    @ Susan
    What is about HUS that draws men who want to hash out their feelings about the “red pill” when the site’s original intent was for women? I think it is because you provide a more “moral” tone than the “manosphere”; there are lots of blogs in the “manosphere”, but they are all either poorly written, come off as sleazy, or both. I had a short lived blog a few years ago; I used it to openly promote my market oriented authoritarian/totalitarian beliefs and mock modern Liberalism and “Universal Values”. I got lots of hits, but very few comments; it didn’t help that some the economic posts required an extensive knowledge of macroeconomics and the site in general required an extensive knowledge of European history, if not world history. The funny thing is; my beliefs are explicitly non-racist, not for ideologies sake, but because once you stop blaming minorities and trace the decline of Western Civilization, seeing that there are no inevitable outcome, no “natural superiorities” or “biological tendencies”; that the rot of Western Civilization is the bequest of malignant force and errors of religion and philosophy at work for nearly 200 years, it makes you more not less authoritarian/ totalitarian and the physical description of the participants becomes irrelevant.

  • Ramble

    how can men feel demonized for their sexuality while the predominant mating culture is urging no-strings sex?

    Easy. Feminism.

    It follows their narrative perfectly. Males are evil and girls should feel free to express their sexuality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Males are evil and girls should feel free to express their sexuality.

      There’s a disconnect here. How can they promote sexual expression with teh evil menz? Some have found the solution in non-cisgendered all female relationships, but that is a minority, even in feminist circles.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “I wondered about this. I think my own beta son lucked out with the truth-coaching from us. It would be really interesting to see what percentage of young men have absorbed this message and to what degree.”

    I am sure he did! When I think back, I can recall moments, well a patchwork of moments really, that worked to disarm my natural alpha traits and amplify my beta-ness. Being INFP and shy, I had a predisposition that just soaked up those messages, internalized them deeply, resulting in quite a rigid view of sexuality, attraction, and my role as a man within.

    Aside from those environmental influences, my parents played a large role in not only allowing those messages to be heard, but reinforcing them with their own perspectives, voices, and behaviors. The sad part is that they honestly thought they were doing right by me. They were drawing from their own upbringings that just happen to be full of all kinds of abuses and devoid of strong “traditional” parental figures. My dad in particular. Social-media-cultural messages or not, my dad was terrified of raising an “alpha”. Because he was afraid that those powers would not come with a natural governor and he had no idea how to relate – how to stoke the natural fires as well as build awareness and restraint. The “alpha” examples he hooked onto were his alcoholic abusive father (he left home for good when he was 14), his alcoholic abusive older brother, etc. so I doubt he ever saw the positive outcomes of alpha behaviors. Even his own.

    So it was all restraint, all caution, subordination. Integrity, principal, and character were the ultimate, but if he sniffed at those things coming out as alpha-dominance, he was quick to set things straight. My mom was the same. She married a beta that would never leave her, never hurt her in any way – even if his own desires or happiness had to be scuttled along the way. I think it worked for them, though if my dad was ever really unhappy about his marriage, his life, he would never have mentioned it anyhow, let alone pulled the rip cord. He was a lifer.

    In any case, their approach was a formula for how to pass on low self-esteem w/o the genetics. Which made it even easier to load on the nonsense in place of how male sexuality and desire intersect with women’s in any realistic way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Being INFP and shy, I had a predisposition that just soaked up those messages, internalized them deeply, resulting in quite a rigid view of sexuality, attraction, and my role as a man within.

      That’s an important insight – personality traits may play a role.

      They were drawing from their own upbringings that just happen to be full of all kinds of abuses and devoid of strong “traditional” parental figures. My dad in particular. Social-media-cultural messages or not, my dad was terrified of raising an “alpha”…The “alpha” examples he hooked onto were his alcoholic abusive father (he left home for good when he was 14), his alcoholic abusive older brother, etc.

      This is really interesting too – what role do family dynamics play in the parenting styles of the next generation? I asked a similar question yesterday wrt moms with a history of promiscuity – how does that dysfunctional behavior influence their parenting style? In that case, they avoided all discussion of sex, it hit too close to home. Your example is similar, in that sex was derogated or avoided in order to prevent something that had been experienced in the parent’s own childhood.

  • Tasmin

    @S.D.S.
    “I felt like Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live.”
    Made me laugh out loud. Classic cinema. You had to be like 3 or 4 when that came out, glad to see it survived the test of time.

  • Ted D

    Ana – I’m glad the conversation seems to be effective at showing our experience without the friction often present. For my part, hashing this stuff out here today has put me in a rather crappy mood. I have plenty of reasons for feeling the way I do, and I accept that. But describing those reasons is bitter sweet, because in revisiting them I go through reliving those emotions to some extent. It’s scary to remember how helpless I often felt, as if life happened TO me instead of me simply being an active part OF it.

    And although I’m relieved to see other men experienced the same, it bothers me that so many have, and that it seems to span many years. I had hoped it was simply something from the 70′s and 80′s, but younger guys here seem to see some of the same old same. I wonder if it is a matter of personality, some quirk of mental wiring perhaps, that some men seem to feel this huge sense of guilt over simple desire while others of the same age “sarge” on racking up numbers as they go. There must be some common threads that tie these separate men to developing similar attitudes based on the same input, since we are all exposed to a similar environment of mass media and American life. Surely we grew up in different places and families, yet we are sharing a similar story as if we all witnessed the same UFO.

  • Plain Jane

    “The funny thing is; my beliefs are explicitly non-racist, not for ideologies sake, but because once you stop blaming minorities and trace the decline of Western Civilization, seeing that there are no inevitable outcome, no “natural superiorities” or “biological tendencies”; that the rot of Western Civilization is the bequest of malignant force and errors of religion and philosophy at work for nearly 200 years, it makes you more not less authoritarian/ totalitarian and the physical description of the participants becomes irrelevant.”

    The problems with Western Civ go all the way back to the roots.

  • Plain Jane

    “But I do wonder how hookup culture plays into this – how can men feel demonized for their sexuality while the predominant mating culture is urging no-strings sex?”

    Men are NOT demonized for their sexuality. They are shamed for pursuing women who make it clear they are not interested.

    My god, what country are you people all living in? The US is FILLED to the brim with unashamed people having sex all the time.

  • Plain Jane

    Beta Male
    “My sexuality is something to be enjoyed”

    Mine too!

    ” and I have no problems with it.”

    Neither do I, nor does anyone else!

    ” 90% of it is reserved for my SO, anyways.”

    Lucky her (or him, don’t mean to be heteronormative)!

    “Anyone who wants to shame me for anything can go fuck themselves. ”

    Nobody wants to shame you. Don’t know where the hell men are getting this idea. If YOUR parents were uptight about normal biological functions of the human body, well, they were YOUR parents. Doesn’t mean everyone else out here has issues around healthy sexuality.

  • Esau

    PJ: “The US is FILLED to the brim with unashamed people having sex all the time.”

    Tell that to “the 80%”; I think the numbers that Susan’s been researching reflect a decidedly different story here.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Tasmin

    Yeah I have a huge collection of 60′s -80′s cult films, something like 900 dvds (I lost count to be honest). I was one of the last kids to grow up with the old independent mom and pop video rental places… you know the kind stuffed to the brim with VHS art boxes for movies that rarely delivered.
    It didn’t shut down until the year I graduated high school and was probably one of the many reasons I was dateless in high school.

    @ Plain Jane

    Maybe your cultural upbringing spared you from exposure but the common mainstream meme is “good guys don’t pressure women into sex”.
    Also look at the comedies and shit in the 90′s where the dorky awkward guy finally gets the girl when she “falls in love” or whatever and SHE is the one that makes the move for the first kiss.

    We can’t be all be globe trotting multi-cultural anthropologists who’ve transcended the material plane only to seep enlightenment from every pore… see you next Tuesday much?

  • Lokland

    @Susan, 720

    I’m curious.
    What would it take for any of us to convince you that this is a real trend?

    You’ve had a fairly large portion of your male regulars say ‘yes this is what happens’ to one degree or another.

    I’m in the same age group as ADBG. Same story.

    I’d also like to say I put some thought into the ashamed of looking at a woman. That was incorrect. it was spurred by an earlier comment (can’t recall who).

    Having the desire in and of itself was said to be wrong. As a guy its very hard to have a desire without visually seeing the women.

    The visual is merely the medium through which the desire can be conveyed.
    The shame is based around the desire itself, not the actual visual.

    Pardon my mistake.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I’m curious.
      What would it take for any of us to convince you that this is a real trend?

      You’ve had a fairly large portion of your male regulars say ‘yes this is what happens’ to one degree or another.

      I am thoroughly convinced. I want to explore this more, because I think it&#