Pre-Wedding Jitters are Common, But Not Benign

It’s interesting how the need to be in love has increased compared with 100 years. As a romantic myself, I want to be mutually in love.

An interesting anecdote shows the contrast. My friend’s grandma told her, “Today you girls think you need to be in love. Back in my day we didn’t think so much about that. We just asked, ‘Will he treat me well? Can he provide? He can? Well, that’s good enough for me.’”

I think that with the relative demotion of men, the elevation of women, the unleashed hypergamy in whatever % of women it’s active in, and the elevation in the status, expectation and even need of women to have a career at the expense of marrying a man “too young” have all contributed to making it less likely for women to feel as in love and thrilled about the guy they end up marrying.

Where much is expected little is appreciated.

– Marriage (i.e. love) is hard. It takes a lot of hard work.
– God, that bothers you? A Real Man would be confident enough to not be bothered by that.
________________________

The first one is most certainly compounded by the second one. Women are coming into this as a pre-handful and no man with any sense is going to take all that on. No way. The male doubt-line has hockey-sticked on the graph since 1970 and for very good and acceptable reason.

Maybe in the end only the most suitable people for marriage will get and stay marriage and everyone else would be up for grabs.

Personally, I don’t lament the consistently dropping marriage rate that we have seen over the last 40 years. What I have seen is that many of the most unfit people for marriage are much more likely to not get married.

Granted, this reduction in the marriage rate has also seen a rise in illegitimacy and single motherhood, so, it is, currently, a mixed bag.

…
My parents split when I was 10. They get along OK to this day, but… I guess I better make sure my self-discipline stays high my whole life. Even if I have to visit a boot camp to keep it that way.

Do you have children?

Not yet.

The problem with having marriage being something only the elites have is that reduce the pool for our kids to pick good prospects if people only believe in serial monogamy this will create even more willing participants so for our kids it will be harder to find suitable mates. Imagine if only 85% of women now (to use Susan’s imaginary number) can be good wives, how many will it be in 20 years time? And trust me the impulse of reproduction won’t go away. As Ted probably can see …

This is a big subject and a proper answer would take way too long. So, in short, the answer is: Shaming.

If the UMC (forget the “Elites”, they are gone) has any interest in having the unwashed masses live according to morals that are needed to maintain a modern western culture, they will need to start shaming those that go off the reservation.

Shame has been shamed out of the modern world. No answers there.

I’m not arguing with that, I am simply saying what I believe the actual answer would be if anyone would want to employ it.

Maybe we are getting everything wrong and this destructive SMP is actually the best for the top. I mean how did royalty lived when 99% of the population was too busy trying to survive to think? … I wouldn’t be so sure they actually care enough after all it doesn’t affect them and might benefit them, divorce create poverty and the middle class will keep shrinking, the only competition elite has is middle class the more poor people the best for them to keep themselves isolated and wealthy, just thinking out loud.

You know, I was honestly just about to amend my answer to say that other than shaming, the UMC could go about erecting very tall fences to somewhat isolate themselves. And this is basically what we are already seeing in Manhattan, Malibu and Miami Beach (and San Fran, Georgetown, etc.).

However, this is much harder for the UMC than it is for the UC.

I got married thinking that I loved the woman. I thought that what I felt was ‘it’. It’s only fifteen years later that I know what I should have felt.

sad but true

@ Just1X,

“I got married thinking that I loved the woman. I thought that what I felt was ‘it’. It’s only fifteen years later that I know what I should have felt.”

Would you care to explain further? I am not sure I understand the phrase ‘what I should have felt’.
What did you feel and why was it so ‘wrong’ fifteen years later? Sorry to be nosey…but I am sure your answer would greatly help me…
Thanks mate!

@Ana.

But who knows maybe 20 years from now having a daughter with five children of different fathers or having a son that has never dated or that has 8 baby mamas would be common Christmas’s conversation. Who knows

One my friends used to work in IT. He really is a nice guy. So while he was doing his job, his mother used to nag him to get a girlfriend. He never did. And she was on his case constantly. But my friend really hated his job. So he quit and is working from home. So what’s his mother doing now ?

Nagging him to get a job.

Go figure.

Anyway Ana, how many mothers have you seen, that’s worried about their sons not dating ?

The UMC is quite good at errecting virtual fences and will get better at as necessity requires it, I expect.

@SW

Yeah, the Bridezilla thing is huge and is also a huge red flag. If I were a guy, I would insist on a small, simple wedding. If she couldn’t accept that, I’d balk.

Worked wonders for me, we both agreed to handle it that way. Paid for it out of pocket ourselves, small and simple is a perfect description. And then moved into a small, rented apartment together.

I’ve noticed that frugality in both parties is a major compatibility plus. The opposite certainly isn’t true IMO.

RE: jitters, so, when we were in grad school I got offered a very good job in another city. I said to my then GF, I want you to come with me. She said, I will, but we have to be married. We had no time to plan anything, so we took a trip to the big city with my parents and some friends and arranged a City Hall wedding. The night before I was freaking out and my dad got so nervous about it he took me down to the lobby and said “Are you sure you want to do this?” He was really worried I was making a mistake, not in marrying her, they liked her, but that I was just not ready or not convinced. The thing is, I was totally conviced but I was freaking out anyway. I told him it would be OK, and yes I still wanted to do it.

I did not sleep at all that night. We got married the next morning as planned. Then we moved and I started my job.

The following summer we had a nice formal wedding in the Mission in my home town. It’s worked out so far.

I think my wife’s ring is like 1/3 carat. It does maker her stand out in our little ‘burb where all the mommies have big rocks.

BTW, we didn’t even buy it until after the first wedding, though she had it for the second.

@Escoffier

How do you reconcile Helen Fisher’s three conditions (mentioned by Suzan) with your maxim of there not being a soulmate ?

Is love then nothing else but a distorted reproductive instinct of humans ?

And if so, does a marriage then bring relief from it ?

“why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”
_______________
I have another, much deeper explanation.This generation has a different sense of self esteem than prior generations. Back in the day, only the champoins of the little league got the trophy. Now, so not to hurt anyone`s feelings, “everyone” gets a trophy. What kind of message is that sending? They have done away with dodge ball, not because of injury, but because it hurts little Bobby`s feelings when he is put “out.” There are a lot of examples non sport related, but you get the idea. A sense of entitlement and noncompetition has been instilled into our youth. They do not know how to compete any more. They act a lot like how women have been brought up. Now women seem to want to compete and the men do not. This could be a reason why a lot of fortune 500 companies like to recruit athletes, both genders, they know how to compete and understand team work. Where it seems to be lost on most of the other young people.

@ Escoffier

– My marriage is not hard work.
– This notion of “soul mate” IS ridiculous; get over it.
– No one is perfect. You need to accept there imperfections just like they need to accept yours. Damn right.
– “Settle down” when you want to, IF you want to, with whom you want to. Or don’t. It’s up to you.
– You have every right to be bothered by that
________
Totally agree…

Lust is an animal emotion, love is more on the decision side. IMO

@ Susan

I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?

And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

I would blame the self-esteem movement, and general media messages that tell women to do things on a whim and not consider the long term consequences. The feminist sex-pozzie culture is simply one manifestation of this. Because of it, I’d venture that women are both more likely to go into a marriage without consider the consequences, and then when things go wrong to get out of the marriage without trying to make things work.

Men have certainly been affected by this “me” culture too, but not to the extent women have.

@Suzan

True, there is more than one winning hand … and hence we’re all at the mercy of him that deals the cards … so you must either be lucky, or know how to play the game … sad really.

And don’t forget the crowd that can only watch.

@Susan

I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?

And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

Three thoughts on your first question, all SPECULATION but probably offer some food for thought:

1) What is meant by the definition of doubts in the minds of the recipients?

Are all doubts of the same importance? Are they serious or not? If most of the male doubters had mild doubt while most of the doubtresses had stronger doubt that could be a possible explanation. Having more specificity in the questions asked and the data reported would be very helpful for our purposes, as we often see in these kind of studies.
——————————-

2) Difference in male and female thought and emotional patterns and processes.

I think a man considering marriage is going to rationally weigh the pros and cons a bit more than women, on average. Women will tend to go a bit more on how they feel. Now, the woman will have doubts that she doesn’t feel sure enough (as may the man to a lesser extent) and, of course, she will also rationally weigh the pros and the cons but to a lesser extent than the man. I think that where the real difference comes in is that the man may be more likely to recognize he has certain doubts but still think and feel that he is making the right decision whereas once the woman decides to go ahead with it that she will feel like maintaining any doubt is being disloyal or unpleasant and will subconsciously repress that. Another related possibility is that women won’t agree to marriage unless their emotional (and to a lesser extent logical) surety is sufficiently strong while the man (same explanation as above) places more weight on his logical decision that had, say, 7 pros and 3 cons/doubts but he’s fine with that. Ted’s description of how he had to weigh his wife’s present compatible nature with certain distasteful (to him) elements from her past comes to mind.

I know I have talked with male friends about my doubts about a girl I wanted to LTR or was in an LTR with and they seem more understanding whereas when I talk with a female friend it seems like even mentioning any doubts or negatives makes her more likely to assume I don’t really like her and wonder why I’m even dating her, i.e. the female friends seem less likely to understand and accept how I can be in love with a girl and yet
recognize the cons/doubts. I do have female friends who have doubts about their LTR too but stay in because overall it’s good or they’re scared of being alone or don’t like change.

I personally have been really in love with 4 women in my life and wanted to marry them. 2 were gf’s and 2 were not. With the 2 gf’s, I was highly in love with each but because it seemed more possible to marry them I began to analyze seriously and had doubts (not deal breakers) about each but would have happily married them anyway. However, 2 were more friends, where we went out a half dozen times or so, and never were in an LTR and so with them the thought of marriage was more in the fantasy realm and I didn’t have too many doubts because it wasn’t a serious possibility. I have no doubt that if it had become a serious possibility I would have begun to analyze the pros and cons and had doubts.
—————————————

3) Men settling more?

I personally believe that very roughly (and I’m making up the specific numbers so feel free to let them vary to fit your perception of reality better) ~10% of women are hypogamous due to low self esteem and are attracted to “lower-status-than themselves” losers on one hand or betas that will be faithful, ~50% are mainly isogamous and have tastes that allow them to, always or eventually as they age, fall in love with someone of their own MMV, and ~40% are more hypergamous and would prefer someone of higher MMV.

With hypergamy unleashed to some extent, I can see that this would tip the balance somewhat so that although most marriages are still of roughly equal MMV of the ones involving different MMV’s a greater % of the marriages has the man with a slightly higher MMV than the woman. This slight settling on his part will make him feel more doubts. The more hypergamous women will marry less frequently because it is harder or them to marriage-attract anyone good enough.

Let me know what you think.

@Tom 38

I agree with your point that people today expect more. Related to this they also have the perception and, to some extent, the reality of more options, both in partners and work and life path and this can add to the doubts. I agree that many boys and men have become more feminine and women more masculine. I’m not sure if that makes men doubt more than women at marriage…can you explain more as to why that would be?

Ana – “Imagine if only 85% of women now (to use Susan’s imaginary number) can be good wives, how many will it be in 20 years time? And trust me the impulse of reproduction won’t go away. As Ted probably can see …”

You’ve just summed up one of my primary reasons for being so “extremist” on this subject. I’m tired of everyone saying ‘it isn’t THAT bad” because it CAN get much worse.

Ramble – “If the UMC (forget the “Elites”, they are gone) has any interest in having the unwashed masses live according to morals that are needed to maintain a modern western culture, they will need to start shaming those that go off the reservation”

It may not help your case, but… Cosigned!

“You know, I was honestly just about to amend my answer to say that other than shaming, the UMC could go about erecting very tall fences to somewhat isolate themselves. And this is basically what we are already seeing in Manhattan, Malibu and Miami Beach (and San Fran, Georgetown, etc.).”

The conspiracy theorist in me has wondered about this many, many times. Is this really just a plot by the elite to control the masses? It seems rather random and chaotic, but to “control” the masses, all you need is for them to be distracted on other issue they deem as more important…

I should start making some aluminum hats.

Susan – “I agree with this, but why do you think that more men than women have doubts?”

Because legally they KNOW they have more to lose?…

“And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce?”

Because generally they have everything to gain? For sure they’ll lose “some” income, but they can walk away with half their stuff, and if there are kids involved she will get that income for years to come. And if she has her own career? She may get her freedom back and have little financial loss to show for it. And hell, she can always pick up another guy to fill in that loss, right?

“I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?”

There are others. For instance, it is socially acceptable for a woman to divorce for any number of frivolous reasons, as discussed in other posts. Women are very much supported by society with divorce, while men are shamed and beaten down for it. Even if the woman is “at fault” (lest say she cheated) society doesn’t punish her (no shame, remember?) and the guy is still left with less money and the loss of his family (if kids are involved). And that’s even before adding in that the BEST support he will get from society is a few guys empathizing with his plight. Add TO that the financial reasons AND gaining back her “freedom”, and I fully believe that society actually promotes divorce to women in many, many ways.

“My guess is that a lot of people with doubts are marrying without sufficient attachment. The beta provider meme, if you believe in it, suggests that women marry with none of the above. Or perhaps they skip right to attachment? I don’t know if that’s possible…”

I think in many cases they do skip right to attachment, and they do it by reasoning. “well, he is a really great guy. Very nice. Treats me SO well. And my mom thinks he will make a great dad. I want kids, and I’m getting older… I’m just silly for not “feeling” this. In fact, maybe I AM feeling it, but it is SO different than all my last relationships that I don’t realize it?!”

I fully believe that my ex-wife talked herself into marriage with me by a similar process. In her case, she already had a child and knew her prospects were slim. I was young and stupid, but I can see looking back she had doubts the entire time we were engaged. I believe she was attracted to me, but my mistake was believing she was attracted to me because I was a safe bet, when in fact she probably saw my band activity as a sign of alpha badness. It isn’t. I do music for myself, not because I like to be in the limelight. In fact, I tended to find somewhere to hide between sets so I didn’t have to deal with people. LOL

Just1X – “A theory that I heard was that women love the idea of the marriage ceremony more than being married. Princess for a day – great!”

I think this is primarily a MC and up issue. Bridezilla’s is a prime example. When financial gain isn’t as big a concern, then vanity and the desire to be ‘special’ kicks in instead.

“I had the right feelings, but in retrospect, it was the strength of them that fell short. A quantitative problem due to poor calibration. (INTj yeah?)”

ROFL. Man, you just described how I felt two months prior to my first wedding. I had all of those feelings, but they were FAR too weak to last. In some ways, I did talk myself into getting married as well as she did. I simply did it by checking for what I thought was necessary, and crossing it off the list. I didn’t actually think about how STRONGLY I felt those particular things though, as I figured the total sum would be plenty.

Tom – @ 31 – Man, I’m 100% on board with this post. Now the question is: how do we get to the majority of these women BEFORE they “learn the hard way” that promiscuity is a losing bet?

INTJ – “I’d venture that women are both more likely to go into a marriage without consider the consequences, and then when things go wrong to get out of the marriage without trying to make things work.”

Yep. Or put another way, women are far quicker to simply react to short term feelings, good or bad.

MM – “Yes, I’ve heard similar stories WRT to expensive jewelry. We dodged that bullet, too. “

My wife actually yanked the diamond out of her first engagement ring, and we invested in a really nice (but affordable) setting. So not only did we use some of her exes child support money to get married (nothing in the law says we can’t, and in our household ALL income goes into the same shared account for whatever is necessary) but we used the money HE spent on her first ring. I don’t remember the total carat size, but it appraised at just under 5k. We paid much, MUCH less than that. My band cost just over $100, and hers twice as much. Total we probably spent $800 or less for all three rings.

“how do we get to the majority of these women BEFORE they “learn the hard way” that promiscuity is a losing bet?”

That starts with better parents, the supremely main culprit.
That losing bet is a double whammy – they feel like shit for going against their nature/buying the party line AND really feel like shit when very few men want to hear their “redemption” story. No blame goes to men here. NONE and rightfully so…

Abbot – “That starts with better parents, the supremely main culprit.”

While I agree with you, that can’t be the only answer, because it simply isn’t something that can be changed now. In a generation? Sure, IF we get the message out there quickly, the kids of today MAY be better parents. But, waiting for that is like waiting for the ocean to dry up. It may happen someday, but it won’t happen any day soon.

J – “That it didn’t happen for you with your ex doesn’t mean you “borked it.””

eh. To me it does, and I’m guilty as charged myself. I should have chosen better, I should have been more mature, I shouldn’t have even considered societal and familiar pressure. The list of things I did wrong is long and complicated. But, the short version really is simple: I borked it up badly.

@Susan

And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

Some thoughts, not particularly original, to hopefully stimulate further conversation:

1) Serial monogamy to get greater genetic variety as put forth by Helen Fisher and others.

2) They get bored, unhappy, etc. (some of this is there own fault, some the husband’s, and even where both are doing their part the romance and lust diminishes).

3) In the West and certain other Asian countries we live in unprecedented prosperity compared with any other period in history. This is in spite of high unemployment and the general bitching that people can now only afford one car instead of two. Plus with the enforced favorable child support, getting half the wealth for women that didn’t make as much, and welfare support for the poor, the financial disincentives are very low for women to avoid divorce.

4) It’s not logical to think this way but women may think back to their days before marriage and remember all the attention they got and think it will still be there. If they haven’t had kids and it’s only been a few years then it’s not such a bad assumption.

5) Average men have been taught they have to sacrifice for their wife and stick with the marriage (cue Ted, M3 (or whatever his name is), and others) while women have been told they can have it all. The exception would be some religious women who are taught the same and believe it.

6) Average men can’t get laid easily and don’t want to give up the sex (even if less than they want) or hope of it upon reconciliation they’re getting with their wife.

7) Men don’t want to give up their kids and money in terms of child support and 50/50 split in cases where they earned more so men file less.

Knew I forgot something.

Before out first ceremony (civil) we were in the car all dressed up and about 10 mins out my heart literally dropped. I was ready to freak out. Sitting next to me she was having much the same feeling.

Nerves are not the same as doubt.

Ted, it’s not a conspiracy per se. However …

The UMC, which is basically the high priced valets for the Davos overclass, does routinely team up with their masters to push policies that benefit the top and the bottom at the expense of the middle. Or at least that benefit the top at the expense of the middle, then to assuage their guilt and to status preen they do other things to “help” the bottom which may or may not help but which at least makes them look altruistic and which satisfies a certain longing to believe they are modern incarnations of noblesse oblige.

Neither the UMC nor the overclass cares one whit about the middle or working classes, except for those who make into the elite schools. Then they want their brainpower and other good habits for their industries, and/or if they are non-white or Asian, they want them for the photo ops and again to satisfy their sense of superior morality.

When you gently point out what some of these policies are doing to middle and working class communities, what you mostly get are blank stares or denial. The smarter and more idealistic ones will respond “I know how to fix that with policy X, Y, and Z!” What you will never get is an acknowledgement that the macro policies which they pursue for their own benefit and enrichment have had any negative effect on the middle.

At most you will get a sad assertion that great impersonal and unstoppable trends caused all that and the remedy is more of the same because “we know what works.” A handful of times, when I have really pressed the point, I have had people say to me in effect “So what if one guy in Pittsburg gets laid off of ten people in rural China rise up from poverty. That’s a net plus for the world.” When I point out that the dude in Pittsburg is their fellow citizen whereas the people in China are not, they look at me like I just said the earth is flat. Who thinks in terms of countries and citizenship anymore? They feel absolutely no bonds of obligation or loyalty to their fellow countrymen qua countrymen.

RE: sexual morality: the SR has complicated roots, but it was popularized by two groups, the feminists and the elite intellectuals, in the name of “Freedom.” The UMC mostly embraced it and then realized it wasn’t working out so they stopped or at least slowed. They are personally quite conservative these days though it remains to be seen how long that can last with hook-up so prevalent and so culturally dominant even if only a minority practice it with gusto.

The problem is that the UMC is intellectually defenseless to preach what it practices. It has not thought through the issue at all but it has been propagandized since birth in certain relativistic ideas and very few individuals ever overcome that. So they see what works by example and mostly behave themselves, certainly after a certain age (no later than the late 20s usually) but they will not talk about it and stand up for it.

The have a terror of being thought “judgmental” (which incidentally, you can see in Susan’s writings sometimes) so they just prefer never to talk about it. Truly too horrible to contemplate would be to be caught passing judgment on single mothers in the ghettos because how dare we say anything when we are white and they are not and we have stuff and they don’t?

And why is it that women are quicker to pull the trigger on divorce? I’m asking this as a serious question – we know that women initiate 2/3 of divorces. I do not believe that they do this for financial gain – based on what I’ve read, that is not a credible explanation. So what is?

I’m gonna take one page from Maslow’s book and another from the ‘sphere’s (since even a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut). Maslow said that there’s a hierarchy of needs and that when basic needs like food and shelter are fulfilled, people begin to concentrate on higher order emotional and spiritual needs. IOW, they worry less about a full stomach and more about “haaappppiiiness.” We live in an econmoy where women can support themselves or get the government to do it (on sort of a crappy basis), so we all have full stomachs. This has driven down the intrinsic value of “beta providing,” leaving the ‘sphere unhaapppyy. At the same time, people with full bellies want their marriages to provide them with fulfillment of their emotional needs. Women are more likely then men to bail over unfulfilled emotional needs, so they are most often the ones to file for divorce. Men are more likely to cheat than divorce in their attempt to get emotional fulfillment (“My wife doesn’t understand me.”). They are better able to compartmentalize relationships and keep two relationships going at the same time, so they have less motivation.

The extended adolescence of American society plays a role as does living a longer life and having what, if you are healthy enough, can be a sort of second adolescence. A couple of nights ago, DH and I went to see Looper in a near empty theater and kissed in the dark like a couple of kids. I actually giggled. As our kids get older, I find myself focusing on recreating what our life was like before they came. I can see how people who don’t have that to look forward to just quit after the kids leave home.

My guess is that a lot of people with doubts are marrying without sufficient attachment

No doubt.

The beta provider meme, if you believe in it, suggests that women marry with none of the above. Or perhaps they skip right to attachment? I don’t know if that’s possible…

Isn’t that what happens in arranged marriages? Parents try to pick out spouses that their kids are most likely to attach to. I’m sure that there has to be some lust as well, but the primary focus is on attachment.

In any case, I do not believe anyone should marry who has not experienced all three stages fully.

That’s a tall order.

@Abbot
“that bubbly gaga doe-eyed heart capturing quality that give men confidence.”
Would you accept a ‘saw how this works in an anatomy book, PLEASE don’t hurt me too badly’ quality?

“ It also wouldn’t hurt to have a barrage of mainstream articles expressing how men really feel when confronting tire-tracked women who want to settle down.”
I agree.

@Escoffier
Wow, I’m mad just looking at the words in the link. I’m going to the state fair, don’t want to get too worked up…

More recently, things have got ‘interesting’, my feelings are stronger this time, but I don’t know what will happen as there are complications on her side. Given that there is no such thing as true anonymity, that’s all I’m going to say.

People’s body chemistry change with time, experiences, moving, diseases… That is why bailing out of a mediocre marriage (not abuse or cheating just boring) is not a good idea, chances are that if you will have remained married this “stronger” feelings would had been for your wife at the moment. I know is hard to believe but I’m probably one of the few ones in the post that has experiences with marriages that lasted through the grave and the feelings in a relationship are not a line more like a roller-coaster moments where you think…”Why the hell I am with this person?” and moments when you will think “Did I existed before I meet this person” is quite interesting if you stick around for it that is.

Anyway Ana, how many mothers have you seen, that’s worried about their sons not dating ?

All of them?! If I had a penny for all the time a married older person (here in USA) talked to me about their kids romantics owes I would have quite the piggy bank. Now do this mothers talk to their kids about it, lend a helping hand or even tell them what they really think about the people they are dating or breaking up? Not a chance. That is the problem. I know a lot of them seeing their kids in their way of a HUGE mistake but for some reason beyond my comprehension they just cross their arms and shrug. Maybe they are right and it wouldn’t had changed anything but I particularly hate the “Maybe if I had said something” feeling.

@Escoffier
I almost broke my engagement TWICE. The running joke during my first wedding was that I was going to go walk down the aisle with my wedding colors ball and chain and my best men were instructed on tackle me if I managed to take a run for it. Hubby was very understanding of the whole thing of course it was not a secret that I was doing a HUGE step leaving my career, my family and my culture behind but still I was terrified for a long time. I don’t want to dismiss the study but I’m sure expats are not a huge part of it. Expating is fucking hard no matter that feminists and MRA’s think that we are just in for a Visa, dollars and a gringo, not that easy.

The engagement ring is another potential minefield. I know a couple, both 29, they’ve been together for 7 years. The engagement is being delayed because he doesn’t want to propose until he can get her a ring with a diamond of at least 1 carat. WTF. In this case, she doesn’t even care, he is the one who is insisting!

Mmm. Delaying your live for a diamond ring after 7 years? I might be meddling but this looks like a red flag. If she wants children she should propose a secret wedding in the city hall, no one needs to know and he can have his “dream ring” see how he takes it. My guess is that he is buying his time and given her age she better find out now than when she is 35 and still unmarried and settles for him because starting to date again at that age would be problematic.
And before the men here think I’m being sexist this is similar to an advice for religious folks whose brides want to wait till marriage before having sex, if she is so committed to keep her virginity that a secret wedding won’t do she might be having a low sex drive, there is values and dreams and there is issues.

That’s not very romantic I know but let’s be honest, we’re only ever going to marry people we come in contact with, which rules out 99.9999% of the human race. So, is nature so efficient that it just happens to plant the “soulmates” of 7 billion people within each person’s field of vision, unerringly? It’s silly.

Hey I like being silly! I do think hubby is my soulmate, don’t worry is not an unhealthy way soulmates doesn’t mean perfect couple or perfect man because as hard it is to believe I’m not perfect. But hubby thinks like you. Heh I can believe it for both.

You’ve just summed up one of my primary reasons for being so “extremist” on this subject. I’m tired of everyone saying ‘it isn’t THAT bad” because it CAN get much worse.

Heh it should be mandatory for people to spent a year living with us poor folks. I agree that it can get worse I just think it can get better with the right choices and policies. The question who will start them? Not many voluntaries and I’m sure the politicians love that they only need to look good and shiny to get people to vote for them so they won’t be changing anything.

The conspiracy theorist in me has wondered about this many, many times.

I have an overactive imagination so I try not to indulge myself on conspiracy theories but if you think about it. You have the 1% stable, getting richer and above all our petty issues the low class gets poorer and poorer the only competition is the middle class and they have their hands tied up by the manipulation of the PC culture (don’t shame, don’t judge, don’t make anything that make people, specially women who had done nothing but suffering for the sin of being born with a vagina, uncomfortable or unhappy…. that makes you EVIL) which is the only way they could do any influence lacking the resources and drive of the upper class and they slowly start to assimilate lower class thinking and behaving. I might just be history moving alone but man History seems to have a mind of her own sometimes.

Before out first ceremony (civil) we were in the car all dressed up and about 10 mins out my heart literally dropped. I was ready to freak out. Sitting next to me she was having much the same feeling.

LOL. I didn’t experience much doubt before the wedding, but I was scared out of my mind during the wedding. Same for DH, who looks sick in the videos of the actual cermeony (but happy at the reception.) I look giddy immediately before the cermony, terrified during and relieved afterward. At the end of the recessional I looked at DH and said far too loudly, “OMG, I can’t fcuking believe we just did that!” My SIL offered to get me a brandy, but I was afraid I’d get sick.

I think my wife’s ring is like 1/3 carat.

Mine too. My wedding ring is a simple gold band.

It does maker her stand out in our little ‘burb where all the mommies have big rocks.

Yeah, I get asked a lot why I don’t insist on a big “anniversary” ring.

A lot of the women at my gym have such large wedding/engagement ring combinations is takes up room on their finger all the way to the first knuckle. I see it as very vulgar. I am a reverse snob that way.

It’s a wedding ring. It’s supposed to symbolize something, for God’s sakes–not just be something to wave in the other bitches’ faces.

Regarding the fan-made 50 Shades of Grey trailer.

“Who could be the one who gives him more? Could it be you?”

Classic hamster bate for the hypergamously romantic.

Here’s another song that really embodies the emotion of the woman who falls in love with the badboy and can’t get over him–Blue Jeans by Lana Del Rey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t1qemaBAKk

Kids are hugely resistant to having those sorts of talks with parents. You’ll see.

Latina mothers and grandmothers, the traditional ones at least, can still get their adult’s kids by the ear make them see sense or else. I plan to take after them.

@Anacaona

MRA’s think that we are just in for a Visa, dollars and a gringo, not that easy.

I thought they tend to encourage men to consider latinas, asians and eastern europeans because they have better character for marriage. Abbot does. It seems like it’s more of the feminists who will bring out the gold-digging card to try and shame and disillusion the men from considering foreign women. I’ve dated a lot of latinas, both in the US and in various Latin American countries and I can say that there are a lot of sweet, sincere girls but there are also quite a few materialistic gold diggers but for me it was never hard to distinguish because the gold diggers lacked both subtlety and patience! One girl I met on the internet up front asked me to buy here a trip to Italy, just for her, and we’d never met in person!!! LMAO But, I’ve met a lot of really sincere good girls there too so you just have to be discerning.

I actually regard you as I do my immigrant grandparents.
But you are not feminist or a MRA

It takes guts to pull up stakes in search of something better. I know many people even now who are recent immigrants. They are often sort of torn between American prosperity/freedom/opportunity and nostaglia for home.

Thank you. Somedays I feel like I was a coward to leave, some other days specially when my mom is sick, I was the only one that took time to take care of her when she was ill, I feel like an ungrateful bitch. Some other times I just feel lonely and want to go and eat Dominican cake and a morir soñando and talk to my friends about “el patio” like we like to call my island and realize I can’t anymore. Is specially hard being pregnant and having my mom calling me everyday “Do you have my baby yet?” But this are just moments of sadness I’m truly happy with my husband and I’m happy that I’m becoming a mom.
There is no such a thing as “everything is perfect all the time” for anything. Not even when I’m writing which is my passion is happiness all the time sometimes some lines or scenes are hard. But that is life. That is one of the reasons I have so little patience for the “I’m unhaappy I quit/cheat” crowd, YMMV.

J – “I dunno. Actually being married is a big price to pay just to have a party IMHO.”

Not when divorce is a simple filing away… And, if she does it soon enough, she might just get a second really big and nice wedding out of the deal!

@ Just1X @ 17,

Thanks for the reply.
For sure, most people change their view on love as they get older. Brian McFadden recently said his first marriage to Kerry Katona was basically null and void because he didn’t know what he was doing. Most people who get married young may have the same feeling…

Escoffier – “PS, if you really want to get mad, read this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/308343/#”

I’m going to save this for Monday morning. Its Friday, and I don’t want to start me weekend off with this article based on the URL alone.

Suzan, I do believe that a comment of mine has gone into moderation. Why ?

Lust — driven by androgens and estrogens, the craving for sexual gratification

Attraction — driven by high dopamine and norepinephrine levels and low serotonin, romantic or passionate love, characterized by euphoria when things are going well, terrible mood swings when they’re not, focused attention, obsessive thinking, and intense craving for the individual

I’ve said it before and I will say it again, Susan should be talking a lot more about belly fat on girls, and guys, if finding “love” is one of the goals of this site.

Girls, and guys, are fatter than ever before and I am confident that it is having a big effect on “love” (i.e. attraction and lust) in the modern West.

As a guy that was raised believing it was my “lot in life” to marry and start a family, regardless of what *I* actually might have wanted to do, I hope you don’t mind it when I say: Fuck you.

Grow Up. Be a Man. Do the right thing. Suck it up.

@Ramble

If you misspell her name 5 times in a row, it trips the moderation flag.

Jirre Jissis

Belgium or Zaire?

Escoffier,

Re: comment #67

With you brother 110%

Our indigenous American culture (i.e. that of the founders, but the same applies to Western culture in general) is now being globalized away as so many indigenous cultures around the world have been before, and we’re blind to the process since everyone assumes it is “America” doing the globalizing.

The top selling item in college bookstores? Cosmopolitan (literally citizen of the world) magazine. America’s not driving the bus any more, if it ever was.

“It’s a wedding ring. It’s supposed to symbolize something, for God’s sakes–not just be something to wave in the other bitches’ faces.”

The bigger the rock, the more lust for strange cock.

Too much supplication to carry around all the time, evidently. Just listen to jewelry commercials on the radio.

Escoffier, I replied to that comment by Brendan over at the Social Pathologist’s blog that you linked to here;

Anonymous I See A Lot of Law Breakers Up In This House said…

Brendan,
“Women want the full package: charm/sexiness and masculine achievement/responsibility. A mix of alpha and beta qualities. That’s plainly obvious.

The problem is that men like this are not common and the truth is that they never have been common. The ancien regime emphasized the beta qualities over the alpha ones by means of the social expectations/restrictions on female achievement, making women more reliant on beta qualities in mate selection. Many of them ended up married to men who were not attractive to them due to not having sufficient alpha qualities, and in some cases to men who had good beta qualities on paper but nevertheless fared poorly (turned into louts, etc.). Today, women are not as reliant on betaness, and, being free to choose, want an attractive and competent mate — and there are simply not very many of these men.

I don’t think this is new, however, as I state above. For generations, perhaps thousands of years now, men have not had to present like this (both sexy and successful) simply to mate effectively. It’s true that the relatively few men who had this mix of qualities were the ones who had the best mating opportunities (unsurprisingly), but it’s not been the case that having both of these was required to mate effectively. Today, it is the case, and most men just are not going to make that cut.”
—–

Welcome to the club!!!
Women have been expected to be the “full package” for their men for millenia.

Expert homemakers, cooks and bakers, child care givers, nurses, home educators AND stay in shape through multiple pregnancies, look as pretty as possible, and bring the goods in the bedroom.

So what if men are also now feeling the heat to not only fulfill their roles as providers, but stay in shape and bring it in the bedroom as well?

And look, its not THAT hard. All you have to do is have a decent job, a regular work out routine, stay abreast of mens’ fashion and keep an open mind sexually and mix it up in the sack.

We don’t expect you to be body building billionaires. Just be able to support yourself before marriage and contribute financially to a family after, and stay as healthy, fit and attractive as is feasibly possible.

Its not rocket science.

RE: Anacaona vs Ramble.

Ana sees it from the perspective of a parent, and Ramble from a the perspective of a single person without kids.

As someone from a very family oriented and traditional culture who nonetheless is unmarried and childless at what is a shameful age to be so in my culture, I can see it from both sides.

Traditionally marriage was solely for and about the kids and larger extended family. So Ana’s right about that. I however agree with Ramble that marriage serves no real purpose IF one never plans to have children.

Commitment and monogamy can still take place, without legal or religious marriage, for those childless couples who want to live happily ever after.

Anacaona October 5, 2012 at 2:19 pm

LOL, good luck with that, Ana. Added to the usual “You’re too old to understand.” will be “What do you know? You didn’t grow up in America.” My neighborhood is full of kids who spend a lot of time protesting to their parents that this is not India, Russia, Israel or the Virgon (That’s intentional) Islands. My parents told their parents that this wasn’t Europe.

Ahh but I already have a support system in the name of my daddy making sure they won’t be pure gringos. Daddy hates USA (You invaded us twice after all), he wouldn’t allow any grandkids of his (and funny enough he thinks my kids are more his grandkids than my sociopath of a brother’s kids I wonder why…) will grow up thinking that nonsense that “American is the the best country of the world” I’m sure regular visits will help with that. Hubby is very skeptic of the American ways because his father is British and he visited his own british relatives, regularly and it seems that British people think low of Americans too. Good balance there
——

You, your father, your husband and his parents can certainly do their part to socially engineer the “American” out of your kids, however it doesn’t mean your kids will go for it.

Parenthood is a crap shoot.

“Hmmm, this sounds sensible, but how does that square with women cheating as often as men do? Or are you saying that in a marriage where neither party is getting their needs met, both are equally likely to cheat, but it’s the female cheating that leads to divorce? (Due to the compartmentalization?)”

That’s what the M-sphere says. They also say wives cheating should never be tolerated but husbands cheating should, because somehow the latter is less damaging than the former.

Smack their heads.

You, your father, your husband and his parents can certainly do their part to socially engineer the “American” out of your kids, however it doesn’t mean your kids will go for it.

Parenthood is a crap shoot.

True but at least I will try. That is my peeve this people are worried sick about their kids but they rather bite their tongues and don’t even try to talk to them out of a bad romantic choice, because they don’t want to be “that type of parent” and “it won’t work anyway” how do you know if you don’t try?… Yeah leaving them to their own devices is so much cooler…/barf.

Susan, where does this 85% of females might be acceptable wives number come from? It seems absurdly high. Only forced the red pill down about 18 months ago but I am thinking of my two sons. I would think the chances of them finding a woman half as good as their mother at less than 10%. But we are in a large west coast city.

Nope Ted, still don’t have any compassion. My own personal case may not have been as extreme as yours, but I was certainly raised in a more femcentric environment than you were and had my own beta tendencies. My oneitis in high school was so bad that I constantly imagined my fake married life together with her and it was damn near paralyzing, but even then I had the intuition to realize that I should only ever be with someone if they were absolutely crazy about me. I just didn’t know how to accomplish that but I at least had an idea of what that would be like.

Its just such a basic idea that I don’t understand how one can get it wrong

Susan – “You realize that MRAs want to tar and feather women who do this, right”

Yep.

I would counter that her ex has been to and stayed at our house, we have worked with him to make visitation as easy as possible, and personally I have no issue spending his money on whatever I want, because *I* am the one actually providing for HIS children. Truth be told, I don’t feel like it is actually balanced when you take into consideration that I had to get a 5 bedroom house to have room for his children when I only have two myself. But, I don’t dwell on it because I’m getting the most positive out of the situation, and my wife’s children are good kids. They deserve a stable family and some sense of security, and I’m in the position to do that. I knew from the start it was a package deal, but so was I.

My conscience is more than clear on this. We told her ex what we did with the ring. He said it was a damn smart idea.

When I first started talking to young women about the SMP, they were juniors in high school. I knew their moms, and as I got to know the girls better I realized their moms had no clue.One mother told me her daughter had never kissed a boy, but I knew she’d been giving BJs since the 7th grade. Another woman told me she would never let her daughter shave her pubic hair, but I knew for a fact that all of the girls had been doing it for years. For whatever reason, those girls didn’t even consider talking to their moms, and they were amazed that my daughter was open with me.

By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

In my case this women had a total clue their kids are not shy on sharing it, because like you say “No judgement” but they also ended up in messes that their mothers saw a mile away coming and still said nothing. There is a sweet spot between not judging and letting then make a HUGE mistake with nothing but a “there, there life is like that don’t worry” , YMMV.

@ Suzan

By the way, a key thing I did was not judge them. No moralizing about sex. That is the only reason it worked. Moralizing would have prevented their confiding, and I never would have started blogging. So that’s a time tested strategy.

Please write a blog post on this.

“Women have been expected to be the “full package” for their men for millenia.

Expert homemakers, cooks and bakers, child care givers, nurses, home educators AND stay in shape through multiple pregnancies, look as pretty as possible, and bring the goods in the bedroom.”

No, they were just expected to be reasonably competent at those homemaking skills, not be homely, and not be frigid. In other words, average women managed to meet the standard. Average men can’t meet the standard that Brendan describes because, by defnition, to be average is to fail the test.

@Susan

“Child support is for the children, not her. She should not gain financially.”

I don’t think this is totally true although it might be stated that way in the law. If she had 100% custody that takes up a lot of time and effort on her part and so she should get some money for that. Now, I think that there are some cases where she gets too much. I dated a girl who had a kid and she was living in a big-ass apartment and going on trips because the father was making several hundred grand a year and so the child support was very high. She did take good care of her kid but she was using a lot of the money for herself too.

Regarding all this big rock talk, aren’t diamonds a cruel trade? Aren’t children dying in those mines over there in Africa?

From a moral perspective any woman who asks for such a thing, or a man who offers it should be rejected on that alone, if they are aware of the suffering that industry is causing and STILL want to get one or give one. If they are unaware of the issue than you should educate them about it, and keep them as a partner, PROVIDED they demonstrate concern over the issue and change their mind about diamonds.

@Susan

“That’s an attempt to attach, I guess, but not a successful one. I do not believe that attachment can occur without falling in love first. At least, that’s how Fisher presents it.”

It’s been a while since I read Why We Love but it was stated very clearly that each of the three things can exist in isolation. She gives the example of one person filling the three different roles. So, I agree that deep attachment is way more likely when lust and romantic love are there but I thought she gave the example of two people who never really had much lust and romance but lived together for so long that they grew attached, sort of like really good friends.

Parenthetically, it’s hard to imagine a straight man romantically loving a woman without lusting after her too. I suppose it’s possible for really low sex-drive, almost asexual kind of guys.