The Abject Failure of Sex-Positive Feminism: A Case Study

October 9, 2012

Tracy Clark Flory is a sex blogger for Salon. I first became acquainted with her writing in 2008, when she referenced Unhooked: How Young Women Pursue Sex, Delay Love, and Lose at Both by Laura Sessions Stepp. That book was very instrumental in opening my eyes to hookup culture, and was one of the things that inspired me to begin blogging. Clark Flory’s essay In Defense of Casual Sex was my first introduction to the concept of sex-positivity as a political offshoot of contemporary, fragmented feminism. 

These books are just the latest result of the mounting abstinence movement, which, despite its religious roots, has recast its attack on “hookup” culture as secular, even feminist. The term “hooking up” — meaning anything from kissing to casual sex — can be traced back to the early ’80s, but only within the past few years did the hand-wringing really begin…Stepp spent years detailing so-called collegiate mating rituals — often lamenting a tendency among young women toward boozed-up hookups instead of cross-legged gatekeeping.

…Increasingly, young women are being told they are either respecting or exploiting themselves; they’re either with the “Girls Gone Wild,” sex blogger set or with the iron-belted and chaste.

Choose a side? No thanks. I’m a 24-year-old member of the hookup generation — I’ve had roughly three times as many hookups as relationships — and, like innumerable 20-somethings before me, I’ve found that casual sex can be healthy and normal and lead to better adult relationships…Hookup culture is not the radical extreme it is so frequently mischaracterized as in the media. 

[After attending a women's college] I opened those other, um, metaphorical gates of mine. OK, screw the modesty: My legs, I opened my legs…I went through a dressing room phase of trying on different men to see how they fit. 

As far as I can tell, these choices don’t form a pattern, other than a refusal to really choose. I was like a college freshman filling out the Career Center’s job placement questionnaire, making an enthusiastic check mark next to every box; except, in my case, I was checking off men. 

…There’s nothing unusual about my experience…For all the anxiety about “hookup culture” the truth is that for many people older than 20, “hookup culture” will sound remarkably like, well, “college.” 

…I learned something from all of the men I dated. Sexually, I learned plenty about what turns me on. More important, by spending time in uncommitted relationships, what I wanted in a committed relationship became clearer — and it wasn’t amorous antagonism but a partnership that didn’t trigger self-protectiveness…Perhaps young women are putting feminist ideals of equality into sex by refusing shame and claiming the traditionally male side of the stud/slut double standard.

Reading that essay, I knew that I had met the enemy, the source of Grrrrl Power and Female Chauvinist Pigs, a snarky, brash, in your face creature that would be telling me to STFU for years to come. And yet, Clark Flory was not the worst of them. She doesn’t appear to be batshit crazy, or a confirmed hater of men. In a column about booty calls, she interviewed evolutionary psychologist Peter Jonason, expressing at least a smidgen of doubt:

TCF: A lot of what you’re saying is obviously very politically and philosophically … unpleasant. I think most of us have a desire to escape our basic biology, to evolve, to be better.

Jonason: As much as you want to escape your biology, there it is, in your face. Humans have the illusion that they can escape their biology, but we’re just like any other animal, the difference is our leash is longer. It appears that we have all this freedom to make these choices, but we really don’t.

Still, a year and a half later she defended casual sex with a vengeance in Casual Sex Backlash:

As I see it, young women have fully proved that we can have one-night stands, hear us roar – and maybe we’re beginning to also allow ourselves more nuanced feelings about our hookups…We can now acknowledge regret over a one-night stand, without being considered, or seeing ourselves as, forever ruined women; if there’s been a recent change in my generation’s relationship to casual sex, I suspect it’s that we’re relaxing our defensive posturing.

By January of 2011, then 27, Clark Flory seemed rather fatigued  by the effort of keeping things casual in Does Friends with Benefits Work? 

When you talk to people who have been there and done that — and even those who are continuing to do that — the response is overwhelmingly negative. As my own former “friend with benefits” put it to me, “I’ve been in so many of these situations and, basically, they work until they don’t.”…In his self-deprecating style, he made no secret of his undatability. He was prone to post-coital declarations like, “You’ll be done with me soon. I’m a drunken emotional mess!” …Only that was kind of the point: So was I. I wanted company, warmth and no danger of attachment. 

…Except that in reality there was. I actually liked him, quite a bit, as a human being…At some point I realized that, despite my insistence otherwise, I actually wanted those sorts of intimacies, only with an actual commitment.

Now a blogger of sexploits who wanted to chuck it all for a relationship, Clark Flory scrambled to put her history of hookups in the context of normal, even healthy, 20-something behavior in Men: The New Romantics? 

I’ve been trying to explain about my “hookup” generation for years now: 35 percent of respondents report having had a hookup turn into a long-term relationship. Coontz sees this as “a very good example of the decline of the [sexual] double standard.” She points out that during at least the first half of the 20th century, it was common for a man to say, “Anybody who would do that isn’t good enough for me.” She says, “People get so hysterical about ‘friends with benefits’ and ‘hookups’ but very often these are interim behaviors.”

When, earlier this year, I read Clark Flory’s Bringing Home a Porn StarI felt something like maternal concern even as I struggled to tamp down my revulsion. Oh, this woman’s poor mother!

I was at a neighborhood bar when in walked a man that I’d slept with before — virtually speaking. We had traded intimacies without ever having met. I grabbed my friend’s arm and whispered, “My favorite male porn star just walked in the door.” Seeing him in person, there was one thought on my mind: I need to sleep with him.

I asked my friend to tell him that I liked him and then ran and hid at the bar. Mid-sip, I felt a tap on my shoulder. “I hear you’re a fan of my work,” he said — and suddenly I was starring in my own personal porno, bad script and all.

There’s no need to go into great detail — do a Google search for “porn” and you’ll find an approximate representation of what followed between us. It’s exactly what I had breathlessly watched him do many times before, but this time it seemed mechanical and theatrical. Instead of being entertained, I was doing the entertaining, and I suspect he was too — but for whom, exactly? We were the only audience.

All of which is to say: It was like nearly every casual hookup I’ve ever had. Here were two strangers connected only by their fantasies of who the other was.

Afterward, he stood up, stark naked, and strutted around my room with his hands on his hips. He nodded as he circled, taking in the belongings of the woman he’d just fucked, pro bono. Then he clapped, “Well! I better be getting home now.”

Despite the emptiness of it, I felt a sense of accomplishment over my conquest. I mean, I slept with my favorite male porn star!…Sleeping with my favorite male porn star was thrilling and fun. It’s a memory that I occasionally turn to for private titillation — when YouPorn doesn’t do the trick.

Not long after, the whole charade came crashing down, as Clark Flory confessed she’d never gotten off in a single casual encounter. From Years of Faking:

Postcollege, I became a full-time reporter, blogger—and orgasm faker. I had strong feminist political inclinations, but I was also deeply afraid of male rejection; my intellectual ideals clashed with my personal insecurities…I chose performed enthusiasm over more authentic sexual experience…in the years that followed, I moved on to faking multiple orgasms.

Around this time, I wrote an essay titled “In Defense of Casual Sex,” about how hookups had helped me explore my sexuality—and they had. But it was exploration through the eyes of men: I was focused on how my partners saw me. I didn’t mention that I’d faked it during nearly all of my dalliances. It seemed embarrassing to admit, and personally inconsequential. I just figured that I was one of those women for whom orgasms are extremely difficult, but even without them sex was a physical rush. Which is not to mention what a blast it was to date or become otherwise involved with a rainbow array of men—from a Muay Thai kickboxer to a big-deal lawyer.

Clark Flory turned out to be a fraud. In championing and justifying her own sordid sexcapades, she had sought to romanticize her experiences as empowering and deeply satisfying. In truth, it was her need for ego validation and her inability to orgasm that characterized her sexual experiences, leaving her with considerable emotional wreckage.

This month Clark Flory signals that she is ready to be done with casual sex. From Who Needs Casual Sex?:

There’s little that could shock me on a first date (or “date,” heavy on the air quotes). Not dirty talk, not sex — not even non-verbal attempts at anal. One gent announced within a couple hours of meeting me that he really wanted to stick a candle in my butt.

But being given flowers? Whoa.

When my recent date showed up at my door, minimalist bouquet in hand, I imagine I looked like I’d seen a ghost — of courtship past…Sure, we could be found post-midnight pressed up against a storefront on a street populated by intoxicated 20-somethings, the minty taste of Fernet fresh on our lips — but we didn’t have sex that night. We got back to my house and managed to unintentionally push all the decorative pillows off my living room couch, wedge my shoe under a cushion and knock over the fresh vase of flowers, before he announced, “As hard as this is going to be, I think the perfect end to this date would be for me to call a cab.”

What a revelation.

Even my serious relationships have started as seeming one-night stands. A couple of drinks as friends, some kissing and then a bed. This is what so many women of my generation do: We claim the same freedom to pursue our desires as men. We embrace the fun of exploration, the thrill of abandon. Sex doesn’t threaten to brand or disgrace us — at least not in any way that we recognize or respect. We aren’t defined by our “number” — we might not even keep track of it.

Hallelujah for that.

But, yes, as I’ve gotten older, casual sex has lost some of the luster of freedom. It isn’t that I’ve forsaken the delights of no-strings flings, but rather that I’ve tired of hookup culture’s dictatorial reign over modern courtship. It doesn’t feel so free when it doesn’t feel like an intentional choice….I’ve often had no one but myself to blame — especially when going after boys literally wearing warning signs in the form of tattoos reading things like, “I am what I am” or “forgive me.”

Sometimes, tearing off your clothes is just a pathetic attempt at taking control of the uncontrollable: love. It took me a while to realize that I wasn’t always getting what I wanted from hookups. As a friend recently told me, “It’s a terror to put your heart on the line and ask for what you want. You don’t have to be naked to feel naked.” My M.O. has often been getting naked to not feel naked.

As a sex blogger, Clark Flory doesn’t have the luxury of hiding her past – any guy who chooses to date her is clearly cool with her Google search results. Now 28, her timing is perhaps perfect. If she’s lucky, she can step off the carousel and give monogamous commitment a whirl. 

Despite her best efforts, she has won an important victory against casual sex. No amount of sex, with or without orgasms, with men who don’t care to see you again, is going to fill the huge hole in your self-esteem. Clark Flory has shared more stories of rejection in her blog posts than anyone should endure, and they’re almost entirely self-inflicted. 

When one of the high priestesses of casual sex admits it’s a sham and a delusion, take her at her word. No doubt she’ll keep spewing the political talking points – Every woman should decide what’s right for her! Don’t be fooled – her misery may be found between the lines. If Mr. Right doesn’t work out, I shudder to think where Clark Flory’s career may take her next.

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/ Stuart Schneiderman

    Great post, Susan!! I’ll be linking it soon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thank you, Stuart!

  • Maggie

    I’ve followed Tracy’s articles over the years and the change is amazing. At 24 she was so arrogant in her “Defense of Casual Sex” but over the years it was easy to see through this. Everything she wrote was was a pathetic attempt to justify her one night stands but she sounded sad and emotionally unfulfilled.

    The saddest thing of all may be how amazed and delighted she was to receive flowers from her date. Men have been giving flowers to women for what, hundreds of years, it’s a lovely gesture and she’s just getting this at 28?

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Interesting.

    I swear, all these girls punching above their weight has to be for the benefit of feeling superior to other women.

    She’s written 331 pages about sex, and has yet to have an orgasm.

    There is a not inconsiderable possibility, less than 50% but probably greater than 20%, that she may go to her grave without one.

  • Passer_By

    @Mule
    I think she said she never had one from a hookup/ons, not that she’d never had one at all.

  • Abbot

    Well, someone will marry her. Yes even her. But not unlike a prostitute, there are some serious childhood issues lurking in there. Its as simple as that and she is dismissed.

    “it was common for a man to say, “Anybody who would do that isn’t good enough for me.”

    That is one of very few admissions that this entire shit show women like Flory cook up is entirely dependent on men’s attitudes and they are the target for all this pathetic rhetoric.

    “I felt a sense of accomplishment over my conquest”

    How does an endeavor that requires zero effort amount to a conquest?

  • Andy

    I would not touch her with a stolen cock.

    I pity the poor man who is foolish enough to marry it.

  • Todd

    It’s interesting that TCF mentions that she was doing all of this hooking-up for the attention for men. As someone who not only did the hookup scene but ventured into the wilder (and generally older) scene of swinging, the dynamic is real. In the swinging scene, it’s worse, because you’re dealing with someone 40+ who is more desperate for validation and attention, and doesn’t know how to get it without throwing their bodies in front of themselves.

    In the partial defense of TCF though, there are women who can just hump for free, no particularly deep issues (or no moreso than the average person), no abuse, no neglect, just a high amount of T for a woman and a raging sex drive. Their choices should be respected and protected. That said, there are few women out there like that, and they’re literally worth their weight in gold. The vast majority are women who need male attention, and are willing to do anything for it.

  • Todd

    @Abbot

    Her accomplishment is that she’s gotten to hang around men (and be validated by their penises) who her stature wouldn’t allow her to otherwise hang around. The achievement is getting cool high-status dudes to talk to her, period.

    @Andy

    I don’t know. She’s someone both self-aware enough to know she has issues and is willing to change. She might backslide into her old ways, but she may finally face her demons and come out OK. Stay tuned on TCF.

  • Abbot

    “Their choices should be respected and protected. That said, there are few women out there like that, and they’re literally worth their weight in gold.”

    Hell yes. A constant and roving population of them is sorely needed

  • Abbot

    “The achievement is getting cool high-status dudes to talk to her, period.”

    She wears her vagina on her sleeve

  • LS

    Smart people learn from their mistakes.
    Smarter people learn from other people’s mistakes.

  • Andy

    You cannot turn a whore into a housewife. It is futile to try. She will be whining about real men soon and ‘manning up’ as any man with any sense will not want this spunk beast for a wife.

    It sucks for her but she has made herself worthless. I see cats in her future.

  • J

    Afterward, he stood up, stark naked, and strutted around my room with his hands on his hips. He nodded as he circled, taking in the belongings of the woman he’d just fucked, pro bono. Then he clapped, “Well! I better be getting home now.”

    The poignancy of the line I bolded always affects me whenever I see this TFC quote. When I’m in a person’s home for the first time, I always look for some object that symbolizes a connection, something in common, with this person–a book, a print by an artist I like, a piece of furniture in a style I like. There is something terribly sad about their mechanically going through the motions of intimacy, their finding no connection and his running out as though the house is on fire. Perhaps some of the disgust people feel after NSA sex comes from the physical intimacy of the act coupled with the lack of real emotional intimacy.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    One wonders how many metaphorical flowers she has turned down in her life.

  • Abbot

    “Perhaps some of the disgust people feel after NSA sex comes from the physical intimacy of the act coupled with the lack of real emotional intimacy.”

    Well in this case they are both nsa pros…

  • pvw

    @Susan, it interesting, the debate on her future.

    I see her married, just as others do, in light of some of the conversations on the previous thread about how an average man might look at her if the sex is good, and also in light of something Todd mentioned.

    There will always be some man who is going to be willing to wife her up because she is presumably good in bed with all those experiences–she has spent a lot of time learning how to please men sexually.

    Did you ever hear that song? Where do all the porn stars go? They are not volvo driving soccer moms! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_XWH7Ryd4

    Putting aside the stories about men who knowingly marry low profile (non public figures), high number women, what about the stories from real life?

    Jessica Cutler, the Congressional staffer who got caught in a blogging scandal and later went from a ho to a housewife:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2008/12/10/the-dc-sex-blogger-on-how-she-went-from-slut-to-housewife.html and: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/reliable-source/2009/10/rs-cutler23.html

    So even though TCF is a good example of regret, something tells me that a number of young women who are carousel watchers or who are on it now are not going to even going to think about it. Like you, I can only hope otherwise.

    But for TCF as a woman of a certain type of elite background (I’m presuming here), she is well-insulated from negative repercussions. As has been said before, for the UMC, they can subvert traditional mores without any major effects.

    Even better if she keeps up her looks and hasn’t “hit the wall….”

    So she regrets it? The story will be, she learned a lot, and she is now better. Many will embrace her with open arms, if they didn’t embrace her already.

    In addition, her mom might not be ashamed. She might be thinking “go, girl, I never had that chance,” or “go girl, you are just like me!”

  • J

    She’s written 331 pages about sex, and has yet to have an orgasm.

    Sad, but not unusual or surprising. Married women are more likely to have orgasms than single women are.

    It’s the faking it that gets me. Why fake it? It just trains men to be bad lovers.

  • Abbot

    “Many will embrace her with open arms”

    On the extreme end of the curve the fringers do find one another. Many stories of women who penpal hardcore prisoners and marry them upon their release is just one example. As long as its an extreme minority, these types will always have sufficient takers…But unlike women who marry prisoners, this Flory character also writes and attempts to influence other women so parents need to screen accordingly…

  • J

    Well in this case they are both nsa pros…

    It doesn’t matter. He was still human enough to look for a connection and run in abashment or fear when he didn’t find one. She was still human enough to hamsterize* the lack of connection. On some level, it hurt her.

    *Yeah, I did it. After over two years of commenting, I finally said “hamster.” These women remind me of cats that do something clumsy and then look at you as if to say, “Yeah, I feel off the door, I meant to. What of it?”

  • J

    @pvw

    Did you ever hear that song? Where do all the porn stars go? They are not volvo driving soccer moms!

    Hey, I have that car! Thank God you can buy one without having a tattoo or a colorful past. I can transport intruments and amps for two kids in it!

  • Joe

    One wonders how many metaphorical flowers she has turned down in her life.

    I wondered about that too.

    Am I wrong in this? TCF seems to have been so preoccupied with her own self, her own pleasures and indeed, her own orgasms, that she’s never even considered anyone else. You know, the giving part, rather than the receiving part.

    Doing what she does, I can’t help but think she’s been surrounded by so many who are just like her; looking for love and not recognizing it.

  • Emily

    >> “Her accomplishment is that she’s gotten to hang around men (and be validated by their penises) who her stature wouldn’t allow her to otherwise hang around. The achievement is getting cool high-status dudes to talk to her, period.”

    I think you’re right, but wow. That’s just so incredibly SAD!

  • Todd

    Doing what she does, I can’t help but think she’s been surrounded by so many who are just like her; looking for love and not recognizing it.

    Hey, welcome to being human. Even those outside of hookup culture do the same.

  • asdf

    “Now 28, her timing is perhaps perfect. If she’s lucky, she can step off the carousel and give monogamous commitment a whirl. ”

    She may get someone, but that someone will not be who she could have gotten. And she will likely divorce him eventually because she can no longer pair bond.

  • Todd

    @Emily

    Through some less than emotionally fulfilling experiences, I’ve met a lot of women like TCF. Strike that, I’ve met women who’ve gone much further down the rabbit hole than TCF has. The older I get, the sadder it seems to me. The thing is that unless you make a point to try to talk to these women, they’ll never bring it up. It usually has to be drawn out through the process of, you guess it, establishing intimacy.

  • Abbot

    Alcohol is abundant, ubiquitous and very cheap so anyone with a little money can drink it constantly and therefore, with no real effort, be an alcoholic. That’s Flory. But instead of money, her currency is pussy and that gives her access to all the abundant, ubiquitous and very cheap penis. Since sex sells as a topic (and better than alcohol), she knows she can write about it and make money. She is a prostitute once removed. Move along. Nothing to see here.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I’ve personally enjoyed TCF’s sharp writing and general “cool chick” free-spiritedness, but I figured that she frequently had to sensationalize aspects of her lifestyle to create buzz around each day-in-the-life episode. I didn’t believe the sex-with-a-pornstar-story, but it was certainly more fun to read than a “took the kids to soccer and then watched a sit-com” tale of normalcy.

    Tucker Max faced many of the same creative demands and his reformed/confessional story arc may be similarly motivated.

    People like TCF ae niche players who have to have a particular editorial slant, are only as good as their last posts, have to stay “on message”, etc. She seems like an SMP guinea pig or stunt-woman or test pilot, putting herself out on the ragged edge of the new mating landscape and then reporting back on it.

    The thing that she may be finding is that a lot of male members of her cohort do not plan on necessarily exiting this culture post-college in a hasty way; on the contrary, they don’t have biological clocks audibly ticking away and they are less willing than previous generations were to stoically “take one for the team” in order to calibrate with a girl’s emotional needs timeline. IME, many young men do see this as a kind of golden age and have bought into a Guy Ritchie film “bros. before hoes” morality that, whatever its faults, does have its own internal logic.

    One thing I have heard consistently expressed from male undergrads is that women cannot cherry-pick only those aspects of feminism/Girl Power opportunities and those aspects of traditional family values that benefit them and then combine the best features and impose the results on men. Things are just too deeply interconnected for that to work.

    That said, if memory serves TCF is quite pretty in a delicate, gypsy sort of way (or am I thinking of someone else?) and I would guess that she will be able to land a reasonably high-SMV/MMV male if and when the time comes, despite her rambunctious past. In extremis, she may just say that it was all BS, done for shock value, etc. I bet Tucker played his exploits down when he needed to.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That said, if memory serves TCF is quite pretty in a delicate, gypsy sort of way (or am I thinking of someone else?) and I would guess that she will be able to land a reasonably high-SMV/MMV male if and when the time comes, despite her rambunctious past. In extremis, she may just say that it was all BS, done for shock value, etc.

      Clark Flory today:

      tc

      If I were her, my biggest fear would be that men would consider me too high risk for the soccer mom role. Google never forgets.

      If she does “retire,” she follows other sex bloggers who have done the same.

      Tracie Egan Morrissey, aka Slutmachine, who went from this (holding knife):

      te

      to this:

      tew

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    I give her a 46% shot at marriage, a 78% shot at divorce, a 12% shot at a brief dalliance with lesbianism, a 27% shot at actually reproducing, and am 84% shot at becoming the poster child for her embittered generation.

    Look, I feel for the kid. And casual sex does work for some people. For most people, there’s a brief spate of it between long term relationships or an experimental week of Spring Break. The educational value of it is as dubious as that of watching porn. The emotional value — for those who don’t look upon sex as a sport — is going to be telling. Particularly when most of the men she meets will recoil in horror at her number even as they try to add to it. She’s not “wife material” by most sane standards.

    But I’m a romantic. I believe in Twu Wuv . . . and I believe in Game. They are both decent mating strategies. Feminism, as a mating strategy, is far less decent. I cover why here (and thanks for the set up, Susan) http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/10/game-is-mating-strategy-so-is-twu-wuv.html#comments

    In this case, this poor girl resolutely followed feminism’s dictate to not get too close to men and learn about yourself. Now she realizes (or soon will) that she’s pursued a poor mating strategy if her goal is a long-term match. Not only is a dude going to be able to overlook her number, but he’s also got to be cool with being blogfodder and possibly being made an example of in a nasty break-up to rationalize her allegiance to feminism. While she’s been “learning about herself” some other girl has been learning how to handle relationships. She’s competing with that girl, and it’s not going to be pretty, no matter where she fits in the SMP. Spending her sexual capital like that was foolish, she’ll realize in retrospect. And she’ll have to lower her standards considerably.

    Unless she gets lucky — like I said, I do believe in Twu Wuv. But after reading her stuff, I doubt her ability to recognize it when it’s right in front of her.

  • Sai

    …Freakin’ A.
    (And she couldn’t even get off?)
    To Jonason I say “pbbbbt.” Some people will be slaves to biology and others will use free will. We all get old, we all die, sure, but he sounds sort of how I did when I was freaking out last month.

    “any man with any sense will not want this spunk beast for a wife.”
    Glad I wasn’t chewing when I read that.

  • Johnycomelately

    It’s a sad indictment that Roissy continually gets validated over and over again.

    The Alpha seed and Beta commitment dual mating strategy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The Alpha seed and Beta commitment dual mating strategy.

      Eh, I think she had sex with plenty of betas. The giver of flowers is almost certainly a beta (and feminist), but she seems psyched, and genuinely attracted. I don’t get the sense that she’s settling in the way Lori Gottleib recommended.

  • Ted D

    Call me evil but I’m glad. She is getting exactly what she deserves for promoting such an empty and pointless lifestyle.

    That article she wrote about banging the porn star literally made me sick to my stomach. Such a cold, mechanical, callous view of sex disturbs me regardless of the sex of the author. I have the same reaction when reading similar stories on ‘sphere sites. I see such people as sexual narcissists, although plenty of them are likely actual narcissists as well. I could never trust them to be capable of actual emotion during sex, and therefore I could not be in a relationship with one.

  • lalady

    I remember reading “In Defense of Casual Sex” a few years ago and wishing I could be like Tracy- the type of girl who is able to “learn” something from each casual sexual partner and come out on the other end with increased knowledge of “what I wanted in a committed relationship.” Instead, the only thing I “learned” was that the guy in question usually wasn’t interested in me beyond sex and, thus, perhaps I wasn’t worth a committed relationship at all. I now realize that even the girls that boast of how much they enjoy casual sex are still hurt deep down when the guy isn’t interested in getting to know them beyond hooking up. They, like Tracy, are often just really good at hiding their negative feelings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @lalady

      wishing I could be like Tracy- the type of girl who is able to “learn” something from each casual sexual partner and come out on the other end with increased knowledge of “what I wanted in a committed relationship.

      This was the bill of goods sold to women. I do feel enormous empathy for women who bought it, even temporarily.

      I now realize that even the girls that boast of how much they enjoy casual sex are still hurt deep down when the guy isn’t interested in getting to know them beyond hooking up. They, like Tracy, are often just really good at hiding their negative feelings.

      Thank you for your honesty. I feel certain that the vast majority of women who have embraced casual sex as their default are miserable. They are always welcome here.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Very nice article, the chronology would be lost on anyone who read the articles over the years, but the summary brings forth the hypocrisy of the message loud and clear.

    The conversation with the evolutionary psychologist is interesting, and highlights how Feminism has failed to keep up with biological sciences. Evolutionary psychology is a new field, much newer than Feminism, and hardly more than a soft science at the moment (see Ryan’s “Sex at Dawn” versus the rest), but it’s underpinned by behavioral studies in animals. For example, Judith Butler’s notion that sex and gender are separable, that our our physical differences don’t result in psychological differences, is completely contradicted by biology.

  • HanSolo

    @lalady

    Thanks for sharing and please continue to as you have insights or experiences that can help everyone understand the female point of view.

  • http://www.theredpillroom.blogspot.com Ian Ironwood

    Feminism co-opted Marxism, the epitome of 19th century “science”. It hasn’t really evolved beyond that and basic Humanism, with a big fat spackle of feminine privilege across the top. How much of modern feminism is informed by modern science, and not antiquated ideology? When feminist sex scientists study the facts on the ground of primate and human mating behavior, their hamsters have to do backsprings to spin it in a politically positive sense. They end up generalizing things to keep from offending LGBT folks and end up with mediocre science and vaguely accurate findings.

    The biggest criticism of Evolutionary Psychology is that “you can’t prove that!” because we can’t actually study our ancestor’s sexual habits and for all we know modern primates and tribal cultures are completely different from the way our ancestor’s actually mated — not that it makes a difference anymore because we are HUMAN and our minds can override our biology! Biology is NOT destiny! We do not need to enslave ourselves to the cultural chains of the Patriarchy! It’s mere culture and society, quite easily changed with a few simple sacrifices on the — HEY, ARE YOU STARING AT MY TITS?

    Ahem. In any case, feminism as an ideology keeps getting nailed these days. Poor girls. They have the jobs, the money, the power, the respect . . . oh, but no one wants to marry them.

    Here’s an interesting question, folks, let’s see if anyone knows where I can find data. How more likely is a couple to divorce when the woman is a self-described feminist vs. those who say they are not? That would be a very tasty statistic to chew on. To be able to tell a dude, “hey, that chick who says she’s a feminist? She has a 12% higher chance to divorce you and take you to the cleaners and never let you see your kids again” — that would be some valuable information to have.

    Anyone have any leads?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ian Ironwood

      How more likely is a couple to divorce when the woman is a self-described feminist vs. those who say they are not? That would be a very tasty statistic to chew on.

      I have half a mind to go into the business of conducting studies. So many great ideas, questions we need answers to, and no one appears to give a damn. Too bad I have no credibility.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    That wedding picture of Slutmachine just makes her seem so dead and lifeless.

    It almost makes me feel sorry for the guy.

    As for this girl, she literally uses guys for emotional validation and thinks nothing of them. I do feel for the girl…right up until I realize that about her.

    And then all that sympathy just melts away.

  • Todd

    @Ian Ironwood

    Great post, and I have two points: one about TCF and one about feminism in general.

    With regard to TCF, she mentioned in her post (and in her previous writings) that she’s been involved in relationships. To me, she’s not as far behind as one would think. After all, just because someone is in a relationship doesn’t mean that they know how to function within one, or that they’re learning to adjust. If she was *merely* “carousel riding” to use the blog parlance, I’d see your point, but based on her word, she appears to be not too far out of wack from the norm in relationships.

    In regard to feminism’s fear of getting close to men (specifically second wave), it has a lot to do with a lot of women being hurt by men. Not hurt as in “oh, my daddy didn’t get me a pony” but hurt as in “my dad used to beat me like a rented mule every Friday, my uncle molested me, and a couple of dudes raped me in college.” I’ve noticed that a lot of the feminists that go hardest in the paint against men are people who were abused by men, and no wonder.

    If your experience with men was that they treated you like crap, you aren’t going to be a great candidate for intimacy no matter what. That said, that doesn’t mean they are to be held responsible or accountable for the abuse that happened to them. They’re responsible for their reaction and future treatment of men, yes, but not responsible for the original wounds.

  • Ramble

    Too bad I have no credibility.

    How could anyone take you seriously if you don’t have credentials?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      How could anyone take you seriously if you don’t have credentials?

      Well, they wouldn’t. I can’t even get readers to take seriously the studies of people with credentials up the wazoo. It’s just my narcissism showing – I feel confident I could design and run better studies than those being done by PhDs :P

  • Brendan

    The point that is most interesting here relates to her lack of orgasms.

    One point is the obvious feminist one that men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. I would say that this is not a correct statement, but rather that it is true that in *hookups* men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. Why would they? There isn’t any longer term thing in play. And Roosh has well summed up the lack of impact this seems to have on women agreeing to hook up — TCF only confirms this.

    The other point is that it is laughable that a woman could view having sex with a man without an orgasm as a “conquest”. Even leaving aside the obvious differences when it comes to “getting sex” (i.e. — a male fan of a female porn star doesn’t get to have sex with her from being her fan). Men see sex as conquest both because it is hard to get, but also because we inevitably come during sex. Either in a woman (as I prefer) or on her (as porn encourages men to do, but which I don’t like). But conquest without coming is not on — and it’s a joke that it’s otherwise for women.

    The truth of the matter is that she was used for orgasms and got some validation in return. And that’s a pretty sad tradeoff.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Brendan

      One point is the obvious feminist one that men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. I would say that this is not a correct statement, but rather that it is true that in *hookups* men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. Why would they?

      It was interesting – TCF describes how several of her partners did take an interest – and she rewarded them with loud exclamations of pleasure. Of course, this served to make them believe that she was highly orgasmic, and that they were studs in the sack. She talks about one breakup where she told the guy she had faked all but one orgasm, and he replied, “I’m not surprised. I mean, I am not some magic orgasm machine or anything.” Here she was exploring her sexuality and finding her “bliss,” and really she was just boosting the egos of the men she was with, to a degree that at least some found unlikely.

      I have often described casual sex as masturbation with another warm body in the room – to the extent that either party cares about the other’s pleasure, it’s generally a question of reputation. This is the vulnerability that Karen Owen sought to exploit with her Duke F*ck List. For serious players only!

      But conquest without coming is not on — and it’s a joke that it’s otherwise for women.

      For me, the saddest moment of all her sad moments was when the porn star wants to go home after “mechanical and theatrical” sex, yet she rationalizes this by saying it was “thrilling and fun.” Clearly the sex was neither thrilling nor fun – all she got out of it was a Sex and the City style story to be shared over brunch.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I have half a mind to go into the business of conducting studies. So many great ideas, questions we need answers to, and no one appears to give a damn. Too bad I have no credibility.

    Don’t be so sure about it, It might be just be me but I had noticed that in soft science if you have enough valid references people will accept you as a credible source. Specially if you had been studying a subject matter. With online education, university courses being sold so people can learn at home, cheapening of booksm Kindle… I think we will have a renascence of Autodidacticism, just my two cents.

    (i.e. — a male fan of a female porn star doesn’t get to have sex with her from being her fan)

    Some independent porn stars actually advertise this “bonus” of having sex with their fans as part of the lure for them to sell the movies, I think is a growing trend actually.

  • JQ

    @Susan in re 41:

    Honestly, you don’t need credibility so much as you need funding and to find journals which conduct blind review of submitted articles. With funding also comes the ability to simply buy the credibility you need.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…”I feel confident I could design and run better studies than those being done by PhDs”

    You probably *could* do better than many of these studies…you might have to get a consulting statistician for help, but I suspect that many of the PhD researchers could also do with a little statistical assistance.

    Rounding up the subjects might be an issue, since you wouldn’t have easy access to college students, but surely there are ways to do this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      I was mostly joking about doing research, but now you’ve got me thinking that it might be very possible to do some informal studies. Vox Day has done this several times. If I were to do the real thing, I would definitely need a statistician. Intriguing possibilities! I love the idea of exploring issues regardless of how PC they are, and I don’t think it would necessarily be that expensive.

  • J

    That wedding picture of Slutmachine just makes her seem so dead and lifeless.

    Her husband is wearing that “happiest day of my life smile;” she looks a little smug. Nice looking guy though. She bagged a cutie.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Her husband is wearing that “happiest day of my life smile;” she looks a little smug. Nice looking guy though. She bagged a cutie.

      Agreed, she did very well for herself. I think she looks beautiful in that wedding photo – she went from a ghoul to a lovely bride. I can’t imagine why such a guy would choose to marry “Slutmachine.”

  • J

    Tracie Egan Morrissey, aka Slutmachine

    That name just kills me. Does her mother know?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      That name just kills me. Does her mother know?

      Honestly, I really feel for the moms of these women. Once I said something along these lines to Jaclyn Friedman – I admit it was a cheap shot – and she got totally incensed. “You leave my mother out of this!” Yikes.

  • Esau

    I can remember reading the Clark-Flory piece “In Defense of Casual Sex” when it first appeared, and my immediate, tribal-centered reaction was this was a kind of death-knell for mid-pack young men; “sex-positive” is positive for thee, but not for me. It’s taken a bit longer to appreciate how she may have been fooling and hurting herself in the longer run; which is arguably an even sadder story given that she was the one with near-maximal choice.

    BB: “People like TCF ae niche players who have to have a particular editorial slant, are only as good as their last posts, have to stay “on message”, etc. She seems like an SMP guinea pig or stunt-woman or test pilot, putting herself out on the ragged edge of the new mating landscape and then reporting back on it.”

    Does this put anyone else in mind of Chelsea Handler? She appears to be all-in on this patrol and making quite a go of it; I think I even saw her on the cover of a big-time women’s mag last month. Meanwhile the pioneering TCF reaps only emptiness; hardly seems fair, even by these standards.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Does this put anyone else in mind of Chelsea Handler?

      I think Chelsea Handler is the real deal. The rare woman who has sex like she’s Arnold Schwarzenegger or Tiger Woods. Young women I know read her books and find her hilarious – this troubles me. I find her repellent and coarse. She’s perfect for American TV though – give the people what they want.

  • Desiderius

    “That wedding picture of Slutmachine just makes her seem so dead and lifeless.”

    Wishful thinking – she looks very alluring. Also lost about thirty if I’m not mistaken. Alpha females have the power, whether they use it for good or ill is the big question.

    The beta females will dance to their tune (no way a beta female is pulling off that transformation, by the way), whatever they choose to call.

  • Desiderius

    “The rare woman who has sex like she’s Arnold Schwarzenegger or Tiger Woods.”

    Strange examples. Arnie’s pure sigma, and Tiger’s a beta Urkel who got lured to the dark side by his alpha superstar buddies and had no idea how to handle it. She’s more a female Tucker Max.

  • Desiderius

    No alpha would have gotten his ass handed to him by the nurses/teachers unions like Arnie did. Not many alphas on the R side for a good long stretch there. Romney and Ryan are trying to reconnect with their inner alpha – we’ll see if they get there.

  • Plain Jane

    He turned a ho into a housewife! ;)

    Congrats to the lovely couple.

    Susan we discussed over at the other thread that OOW baby mamas don’t necessarily have high N, and that’s been my practical work experience as well. I want to say this, I think its better practice safe sex and have a high N then have a low N and an oow baby you don’t have the means to support.

    What’s your take on that?

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I dunno. She does not look alluring to me. Guess I might be wrong.

  • Plain Jane

    @Brendan

    One point is the obvious feminist one that men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. I would say that this is not a correct statement, but rather that it is true that in *hookups* men don’t care about women’s pleasure in sex. Why would they?

    It was interesting – TCF describes how several of her partners did take an interest – and she rewarded them with loud exclamations of pleasure. Of course, this served to make them believe that she was highly orgasmic, and that they were studs in the sack. She talks about one breakup where she told the guy she had faked all but one orgasm, and he replied, “I’m not surprised. I mean, I am not some magic orgasm machine or anything.” Here she was exploring her sexuality and finding her “bliss,” and really she was just boosting the egos of the men she was with, to a degree that at least some found unlikely.
    —————————

    The only men women need to feel they should fake orgasms for are their husbands or men who are committed to and love them. Otherwise NEVER feed the ego of a casual sex stud.

    I don’t recommend faking orgasms regularly for/with committed partners either, but occasionally, if he’s trying really hard and its just not happening, and you know he will feel bad if he thinks you aren’t enjoying it, then its not so bad.

  • Desiderius

    “wishing I could be like Tracy- the type of girl who is able to “learn” something from each casual sexual partner and come out on the other end with increased knowledge of “what I wanted in a committed relationship.

    This was the bill of goods sold to women. I do feel enormous empathy for women who bought it, even temporarily.”

    So many bought it because exploring one’s options and getting a sense of what one needs in a partner and what one brings to a relationship while at the top of her SMV does actually beat serial monogamy, where the boyfriends were as much for status as for practicing the relational skills necessary for a good marriage.

    Then the sex-pozzies ruined it by glorifying having sex “like a man,” which in their minds meant the worst men.

  • Desiderius

    “Guess I might be wrong.”

    Nah, different strokes. I’d put money on her rating pretty high is a poll of men with no knowledge of her background though.

  • Purple Tortoise

    Women are often self-deluded about how they are harming themselves. Perhaps the pathetic stupidity of this sort of story would become more apparent if I translated it from female to male.

    A young man comes into a substantial inheritance that, like a woman’s youthful beauty, he did nothing to merit. He discovers that all sorts of attractive women love spending time with him when he lavishes his wealth on them. One time he even takes a supermodel to an expensive restaurant, though she immediately walks out after dinner is over. He argues that casually spending lots of money on one-time dates and gifts to women he meets in bars is empowering, but years later he admits that he actually bedded very few of them. His money begins to run out as he approaches his 30s, but because of his former wealth, he never bothered learning any job skills or cultivating any attractive masculine qualities. Sadder, but wiser, he now looks for that quality woman who will see that all his prior experience of freely spending money on bimbos for no sex in return actually helped him grow as a person and become a better husband. And he is now ready to give his love to that woman, but she shouldn’t be so shallow to resent that he has only $20 left to spend on her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Purple Tortoise

      That’s brilliant. The funniest thing is, I’ve actually known a couple of guys like that!

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Wishful thinking – she looks very alluring.

    I’m getting the feeling that you have a thing for bad girls. Don’t listen to the Sirens they will make you drown.

    and Tiger’s a beta Urkel

    Please don’t compare that cheating bastard with one of my fictional boyfriends.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Purple Tortoise

    “his prior experience of freely spending money on bimbos for no sex in return actually helped him grow as a person and become a better husband”

    paralleled with:
    “her prior experience of freely sexing up bad boys for validation, no reciprocated emotional intimacy and no demand of commitment actually helped her grow as a person and become a better wife”

    How is anything of this nonsense helpful to anyone goring as a person?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    ugh typing in the dark fail… what I meant was:

    How is any of this nonsense helpful to anyone growing as a person?

  • Plain Jane

    Society’s Disposable Son October 10, 2012 at 12:33 am

    @ Purple Tortoise

    “his prior experience of freely spending money on bimbos for no sex in return actually helped him grow as a person and become a better husband”

    paralleled with:
    “her prior experience of freely sexing up bad boys for validation, no reciprocated emotional intimacy and no demand of commitment actually helped her grow as a person and become a better wife”

    How is anything of this nonsense helpful to anyone goring as a person?
    ———————

    ITS POSSIBLE!

    Much of marriage is compromise, if not straight up sacrifice, so the first scenario will help acclimatize him.

    The second scenario will build her bedroom skills obviously, which after marriage her husband gets the benefit of.

    Cup half full. :)

  • szopen

    @purple tortoise
    absolutely brilliant :D

    It’s interesting though that when remembering all those visual studies of images of “LTR-oriented” vs “STR-oriented” girls, she looks much more closely to those “LTR-oriented” girls…

  • Mullan

    ”I’ve followed Tracy’s articles over the years and the change is amazing. At 24 she was so arrogant in her “Defense of Casual Sex” but over the years it was easy to see through this. Everything she wrote was was a pathetic attempt to justify her one night stands but she sounded sad and emotionally unfulfilled.

    The saddest thing of all may be how amazed and delighted she was to receive flowers from her date. Men have been giving flowers to women for what, hundreds of years, it’s a lovely gesture and she’s just getting this at 28?”

    Yes, but she was amazed and delighted to receive flowers from her date when her good looks and fertility were already gone.

    Take for example the average-looking guy. He can be the lost poetical heir of Lord Byron, but if he writes a poem and gives it to an equally average(or even below average) girl, the girl will see the guy as creepy/loser/desperate and will ignore the guy and go out of her way to not see him, whereas the tall/muscular/bad boy near-retard dude can say the most obscene things to her, can completely ignore her and on and on, but he’s still going to get sex/female attention and a relationship, if he so wants it.

  • Mullan

    ”It’s interesting though that when remembering all those visual studies of images of “LTR-oriented” vs “STR-oriented” girls, she looks much more closely to those “LTR-oriented” girls…”

    Alpha males or good-looking betas are extremely hard to pin down and to pair them up long-term wise. I’ve seen very sweet and shy girls lament their lack of a boyfriend but when the jock shows up, their eyes light up, and the rest of the guys who are truly interested in them are left to the sidewalks and to remain as beta orbiters.

    A long-term girl will indulge in a short-term relationship IF the Alpha male wants to have casual sex with her. The long-term girl will wait as long as its necessary to be in the sphere of the Alpha male/model-looks beta male while ignoring the men who are in her league.

    Basically, there is no ”ltr girl” nor ”str” girl because it depends on the men she’s surrounded by.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mullan

      A long-term girl will indulge in a short-term relationship IF the Alpha male wants to have casual sex with her. The long-term girl will wait as long as its necessary to be in the sphere of the Alpha male/model-looks beta male while ignoring the men who are in her league.

      Basically, there is no ”ltr girl” nor ”str” girl because it depends on the men she’s surrounded by.

      False. This has been covered many times here. If you can’t cite a source other than a Game blogger we’ll just chalk this up to ignorance.

  • Sai

    “How is any of this nonsense helpful to anyone growing as a person?”

    I’m still waiting for that to be explained too.
    (We need Abbot to make another penis crack, I am 12 years old so those haven’t stopped amusing me yet.)

  • pvw

    @Purple Tortoise and Szopen,

    I agree, brilliant, truly brilliant:

    “His money begins to run out as he approaches his 30s, but because of his former wealth, he never bothered learning any job skills or cultivating any attractive masculine qualities. Sadder, but wiser, he now looks for that quality woman who will see that all his prior experience of freely spending money on bimbos for no sex in return actually helped him grow as a person and become a better husband. And he is now ready to give his love to that woman, but she shouldn’t be so shallow to resent that he has only $20 left to spend on her.”

    My thoughts: What a wonderful story, to imagine the male equivalent of a TCF.

    The man in your story proved himself to be an emotionally promiscuous woman-pleaser, not a good bet for a man in a long term relationship, because he freely gives up his valuable financial resources to women with whom he has no commitment. He is less valuable now as a husband, now that he has spent his money on “wine, women, and song.”

    As a husband, he will not be a dedicated family man; his first thoughts about spending his resources will not be on his family. He will fritter away his resources on foolishness, ie., other women (with whom he might have emotional affairs) or the sob story of the day (most likely a woman’s sob story), while depending on his wife to take care of all the family’s financial needs. He never imagined that he would have to do what men have been expected to do from time immemorial, conserve their financial resources in order to support a wife and family some day.

    As for a woman like TCF,the female example we began with, the corollary of the young man with the big inheritance, she proved herself to be a physically promiscuous woman seeking emotional validation from men’s sexual attentions which didn’t even satisfy her.

    It only made her proficient at attracting men who would use her sexually. Male sexual attention is like a drug for her; she was always chasing the next fix. But emotional connection is difficult; yet it is different from the supposed emotional validation of being able to gain men’s sexual attraction. She hardened herself through years of seeing her connections to men only through a sexual lens.

    So now that she is older and wiser, and presumably less attractive than when she was younger, she wants some man to marry her with the baggage she has. As a wife, will she be the type to constantly crave attention from men and not be satisfied with the attention from her husband?

  • Iggles

    This is an awesome post Susan!

    As someone who is practically the same age as Tracy Clark Flory but took a different path (no ONS or FWB by choice), it’s interesting how we both came to the same conclusions about casual sex. I’ve always felt that I would find casual sex to be empty and it would hurt me emotionally to engage in it, so I simply didn’t. TCF, however, had to experience it first hand to know it was something that’s unfulfilling to her.

    Chalk it up to being intuitive (INFP) or having future time orientation, but even growing up I could spot destructive behavior from a mile away. My mind connects the actions with consequences, so if there’s no “upside” for me then I’m not going to mindlessly join the herd! Still, it’s amazing to me that so many people lack this ability.

    While I have no doubt some women enjoy the carousel as much as men do, but they’re a small minority. I think most women who ride the carousel get off it after a few rides or delude themselves that they’re empowering themselves as TCF did!

  • deti

    The most interesting part of this story to me is Flory’s views and reasoning as she ages through her 20s. At 24, sex positivity is a boon to her and women everywhere. In January 2011, she’s 27 and the bloom is off the rose.

    Flory hits bottom at age 28 when she has sex with her favorite male porn star. She realizes her fall from grace when she doesn’t come during the sex (which, with a male porn star, should be the very pinnacle of sex-positivity experience), and instead suffers the humiliation of seeing him prance about her place afterward, admiring his “accomplishment”. He then literally, a few moments later, gets dressed and leaves. She has to rationalize it by calling it “thrilling and fun” when it obviously was not. I don’t think I’ve ever read a pump and dump described in more florid (heh) detail.

    She then writes a mea culpa last month, at age 28. She’s now coming up on 29 years old.

    Here’s what has really happened with Flory: This is merely a series of writings describing in real time a young woman moving through slutty behavior and realizing its fruitlessness as she ages. Now almost 29, she’s either past or nearing her day of reckoning with The Wall. Flory now realizes she has nothing to show for her past sluthood other than using her life as a template for her vocation. She is now scrambling to compose her mea culpas in the hopes of reassembling the pieces.

    To me, this just reinforces that no woman, anywhere, anytime, escapes The Wall.

  • deti

    I looked at that picture of TCF at SW’s comment at 35. TCF is pretty enough, but I have to say she appears older than her 28-almost-29 years. She looks to be in her mid-30s.

    More anecdotal evidence to these mid-40s eyes that that lifestyle takes its toll on women in general.

    Nonetheless, I am sure some man somewhere will be willing to marry her as long as he doesn’t read of her sexcapades with the male porn star. Susan, I think you’re right that her biggest risk is that she can’t conceal or sugar-coat her past. What man is going to want to wife up a woman who can’t (or didn’t, or couldn’t) orgasm with a porn star going to work on her?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Deti

      What man is going to want to wife up a woman who can’t (or didn’t, or couldn’t) orgasm with a porn star going to work on her?

      I didn’t even think of that – I assumed the guy probably knows nothing about giving females orgasms, as they’re all faked in porn anyway. Either that or he wouldn’t bother with any but his own.

      I meant that I assume most men would not wish to marry someone who sold autobiographical sex stories for a living.

  • Abbot

    “But he’s made the case, at least, that biology could lead to modern love, without any help from law or custom. “Culture came much later,” he told a reporter in the spring, “and only augmented things that were already in place.”

    Then the female angst in certain isolated geographic areas is primarily due to artificial stimuli (BC pills) and alcohol, consumerism, mal parenting and external influences from some very narcissistic and bitter women – all neatly packaged and spit out as “sex positive”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolution/2012/10/are_humans_monogamous_or_polygamous_the_evolution_of_human_mating_strategies_.single.html

    .

  • Abbot

    “that lifestyle takes its toll on women in general.”

    No more ga ga doe-eyed captivating and adoring woman left

    “What man is going to want to wife up a woman who can’t (or didn’t, or couldn’t) orgasm with a porn star going to work on her?”

    The fact that she was even willing disqualifies her. Some women in the US and near all other women are wives even if they are not yet married. Take a trip. Walk the streets. Chat. You can hear it in their voices. Challenge yourself. Be amazed.

  • Abbot

    “To me, this just reinforces that no woman, anywhere, anytime, escapes The Wall.”

    and the extreme dearth of suitors eagerly waiting for her on the other side

  • pvw

    @Iggles:

    “Chalk it up to being intuitive (INFP) or having future time orientation, but even growing up I could spot destructive behavior from a mile away.”

    Me: For me as an INTJ, my first thought would have been, aren’t you concerned that you might wind up on the front page of a newspaper as the woman who disappeared, got knifed in an alley, tossed out of a window, got murdered in her apartment, etc.? Don’t you have any natural sense of self-preservation?????

    As I read your observations, I thought, what might be her type?

    E: Definitely, to have so much sex with so many strangers, as I recoil at the thought and shudder, bleh!

    S: She seems to live in experiencing her senses, ie., it only has meaning if she experiences it, and to dedicate her career to experiencing and writing about sex, says it all.

    T: She is a thinker, as she seems to think mechanically, the sex is all about developing proficiency at pleasing men sexually. She is doing, as someone suggested, her own experiment into a cultural phenomena. She seems detached from her emotions, ie., she seemed at first to like having no emotional connection, but she eventually came to the realization that no emotional connection came to realize lack of sexual fulfillment for all her efforts. Pretty sad; she might have well been a sex doll.

    P: She is not one to come to decisions early and quickly, like a J type might, that several years of hooking up sex with no orgasms just might be a problem…

  • Mullan

    Hey, guys, this is not rocket science. In order to make a woman orgasm you do as much foreplay as she needs to get lubricated and then you stimulate her clitoris until she has an orgasm. Turning a woman on and then dry humping her with your arm while she has her clothes on also works wonders.

    vaginal intercourse does not, to most women, provoke an orgasm. Have you guys noticed that getting pounded 40 minutes doesn’t usually make a porn star orgasm? Most of them are completely dry. Many male porn stars use their saliva as lube but they still get the abrasive marks on their penises from rubbing it inside a dry vagina.

    Male porn stars aren’t sex gods. Most of them are incapable of lasting more than 10 minutes, if that much, the rest of the movie comes from montages. Many, many of those guys take viagra to shoot a scene and even when they do it, they have to continue to stimulate their penises with their hands to maintain an erection.

    I’ve also seen very fit guys with extremely hot chicks trying to get them hard, but the dudes would spend 20 minutes receiving oral sex and the penis would not become erect. Gay porn stars? Maybe.

    Women aren’t lube factories, either. 10 to 20 minutes in they are eager for the guy to finish.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mullan

      Turning a woman on and then dry humping her with your arm while she has her clothes on also works wonders.

      Dry humping is vastly underrated, at least from a female POV.

      Women aren’t lube factories, either. 10 to 20 minutes in they are eager for the guy to finish.

      I think I read that the average woman’s ideal is something like 13 minutes. Sounds about right. Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken. Half and hour all in, and then the new episode of Homeland.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    TCF: “A lot of what you’re saying is obviously very politically and philosophically … unpleasant. I think most of us have a desire to escape our basic biology, to evolve, to be better.”

    The idea of *escaping* one’s basic biology strikes me as odd. Do airplanes *escape* the laws of physics in order to leave the ground? Of course not…they *use* the laws of physics. Ditto even for rockets.

    “Escaping from biology” strikes me as magical thinking.

  • deti

    Mullan:

    It’s a day at the office for porn actors/actresses. They do what they gotta do to get the job done, get the money shot, then they shower and go home. We get that.

    But we all know that to the sex positivist or the porn consumer, it’s not about the mechanics, it’s about the fantasy. Sexing a porn star is a dream come true for most men; not much less so for a sex pozzie woman. From Flory’s writing you can almost see her building up the experience with the male porn star in her mind, letting her hamster spin at 100 mph, mentally and emotionally preparing herself and constructing the later narrative for her GFs, then getting the bang, then going “meh”.

    Which is pretty much how it turned out.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      then getting the bang, then going “meh”.

      Which is pretty much how it turned out.

      And the strangest thing is that she says she’ll think back on it when online porn doesn’t do the trick for her. Why would she do that if the sex was bad? Clearly, she’s saying that the turn-on is the identity of the male, the validation, that he chose her (even though he didn’t). My guess is she’ll masturbate thinking of the scene in the bar, not the bedroom.

  • Ted D

    ““Escaping from biology” strikes me as magical thinking.”

    I’ve always viewed this goal as rising above our baser instincts. However phrasing it this way tends to upset people’s more delicate sensibilities. We are all just animals with very large brains. We can use those brains to be more primitive, or we can use them to be something better than the animal nature that created us. The real issue in my eyes is that our society does NOT promote “rising above”, and instead wants everyone to pander to the lowest common denominator. I’d like to blame people for being too lazy or short sited to realize that they have a choice, but in many cases I don’t know that those people even know there IS a choice to be made.

  • deti

    Where’s Ian Ironwood, our resident smut merchant, when you need him?

  • Ramble

    Strange examples. Arnie’s pure sigma, and Tiger’s a beta Urkel who got lured to the dark side by his alpha superstar buddies and had no idea how to handle it. She’s more a female Tucker Max.

    No alpha would have gotten his ass handed to him by the nurses/teachers unions like Arnie did. Not many alphas on the R side for a good long stretch there. Romney and Ryan are trying to reconnect with their inner alpha – we’ll see if they get there.

    Desi, it is a little odd to hear you use the Alpha/Beta terms. I would not have pegged you for someone who would decide to make use of that paradigm.

    I am assuming that you do not buy into in the way that the likes of Roissy does, but still.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think Slutmachine bagged a young Dennis Quaid.

    Maybe I’m either more cynical or more optimistic than most (depending on if you like TCF or not), but I think TCF will only have problems finding a reasonable-quality LTR mate if she does so deliberately in order to maintain her “adventures of a single girl” theme.

    At the risk of sounding shallow, past sins tends to be forgiven if the girl in question is hot enough; if TCF looked like Kate Upton, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation because the men here would all be over at her blog giggling about her tanned breasts.

    TCF is an attractive writer for a hip, edgy org that is a darling of the culture-vulture set. I think she’ll get some finance guy who wants to establish his liberal street cred by saving rain forests and “reformed” hook-up participants. They will probably do some coke and have some 3somes, but in the end it may work out ok.

    This brings me to a thought experiment. What if, instead of being a neo-bohemian sex-pozzie, TCF was married with N=2 at age 28-29, but her husband was 20+ years older, physically unattractive, and extremely wealthy?

    Would we give her a break here? I would think not—I don’t think we’d celebrate her for “keeping the price of sex high”; we’d say that she was clearly a prostitute of some kind, albeit an exclusive high-$$$ contract girl rather than a freelance escort working bachelor parties in Detroit. We might even prefer the promiscuous, quirky-blogger TCF to some fucked-up, low-N-but-mercenary version.

    I think that the good news in all of this is that, thanks to women like TCF who apparently develop almost artistically-motivated appetites for badboy cock, it is possible in this day and age for a man to have (if he wants it) a good turn or two with the ladies without being particularly rich or high in status. Perhaps occasionally a legit relationship may develop and there is something nice about this, a kind of “Lady and the Tramp” sensibility that we can all enjoy when, say, the female McKinsey consultant pairs off with the motorcycle-riding tattoo artist.

    The bad news has at least two parts: 1) to enjoy this, the guy may need to be hot, perhaps really hot, or, alternatively, may need to be crafty/ruthless/manipulative; 2) if a guy doesn’t want to play the field, he may end up being “rewarded” with a TCF who did, and clearly this is a deeply troubling injustice for the man placed in such a scenario.

    It seems like there may be a couple of groups that would be particularly affected here: if a man ignored/was ignored by high N temptresses and worked his ass off to be in a position to offer a comfortable, secure lifestyle and emotional support to his future spouse, but in the meantime he let himself go aesthetically and failed to develop hard, combative “alpha” type skills, he may find himself in the SMP at an initial competitive disadvantage to a loser with a six-pack, carnivore social confidence, and good cheekbones. The responsible hard-worker will be pissed and resentful if he is frozen out of the game for years and then suddenly becomes a woman’s Plan B, in extremis “break-glass-if-35-and-still-unmarried” safety choice.

    On the other side, if a woman was planning on using privileged sexual access as some kind of asset or resource to trade for a particularly high-quality man, she may find that the price of sex has been lowered by women like TCF and, adding insult to injury, may then find that the more attractive of these women are in fact able to leave the fabled carousel and find decent guys when they do decide to hang up the spurs.

    Obviously the men from case 1 and the women from case 2 have a lot in common and should be meeting. There’s something going wrong there and I don’t think it can be necessarily blamed on the STR-oriented hook-up artists.

  • Ramble

    if TCF looked like Kate Upton, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation

    Kate Upton could have the Oakland Raiders run a train on her in public and still have a hundred wealthy idiots lined up to orbit and provide for her.

  • Ted D

    BB – “The bad news has at least two parts: 1) to enjoy this, the guy may need to be hot, perhaps really hot, or, alternatively, may need to be crafty/ruthless/manipulative; 2) if a guy doesn’t want to play the field, he may end up being “rewarded” with a TCF who did, and clearly this is a deeply troubling injustice for the man placed in such a scenario.”

    Cosigned. It really doesn’t leave men with many options. Either “play the game”, or get over the fact that your future wife probably will. You will either meet her with comparable N and possibly a bad view of women, or you will meet her with a much lower N and a bad view of women. I guess if those are the choices, not “playing the game” does seem rather stupid, doesn’t it?

  • HanSolo

    @Bastiat Blogger

    For a different twist on 1 Peter 4:8:

    “For hotness covereth a multitude of sins.”

  • Abbot

    “a woman’s Plan B”

    That is the fate of many captive audience American men

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Suzan.

    This is an excellent post … and I’ll be honest … I want nothing to do with Tracy Clark Flory … not even if she’s naked on my bed, with a flute up her arse, and playing Yankee Doodle for me.

  • J

    To me, this just reinforces that no woman, anywhere, anytime, escapes The Wall.

    I dunno, Det. You had me until you brought up the wall. While I certainly don’t agree with TCF or Egan’s lifestyle, I’m not sure either of them has “hit the wall.” Egan looks lovely in her wedding picture, and I’ve seen less dissolute women look older than TCF. I’m old enough to be either of their mothers, and men still flirt with me. This weekend, I watched an old buck attempt to pick up a 70something yo widowed friend of mine. I doubt there’s a point that healthy people become so repulsive that no one is interested.

  • Escoffier

    “No alpha would have gotten his ass handed to him by the nurses/teachers unions like Arnie did.”

    This is really not the place, but Ah-nold’s defeat had nothing to do with alpha/beta and everything to do with structural issues in California politics. If anything, his over-confident alphaness did him in.

    As Machiavelli says, a prince needs to learn to imitate the fox and the lion. The lion frightens the wolves, the fox avoids the snares. Arnie pre-2005 was all lion and no fox.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, the problem is not that you lack credibility, it’s that studies are expensive and you have no money. That problem can be solved.

    The credibility problem would come to play in that no peer reviewed journal would ever publish your studies but there are ways around that too.

  • Ted D

    J – ” I doubt there’s a point that healthy people become so repulsive that no one is interested.”

    Well some men (myself included) would NOT see TCF as “healthy”, at least not from a mental standpoint. I’ll be the asshole that says it: TCF is broken IMO. She may pull back from the brink and “reform”, but to me she is too far gone for me to EVER trust her to show me genuine love and emotional commitment. She will probably not have trouble marrying, because there are plenty of men that don’t feel the way I do. Good for her and them, but it isn’t a job I would volunteer for myself, and I honestly believe any man that does is a complete and total fool.

  • J

    Nonetheless, I am sure some man somewhere will be willing to marry her as long as he doesn’t read of her sexcapades with the male porn star.

    Where would he find such a man? Yet, I wouldn;t be surprised if she did eventually marry. Egan did well for herself with a similar past, no?

    What man is going to want to wife up a woman who can’t (or didn’t, or couldn’t) orgasm with a porn star going to work on her?

    Apaarently, screwing a favorite porn star even just a movie star is not the automatic orgasm inducer you’d think. Women don’t work that way. We’re more likely to come with someone who knows us well, cares about our pleasure, etc.

  • J

    Well some men (myself included) would NOT see TCF as “healthy”, at least not from a mental standpoint.

    That may well be true, but it doesn’t prove the existence of a wall. I was talking about the wall, not advocating for TCF.

  • deti

    J:

    “While I certainly don’t agree with TCF or Egan’s lifestyle, I’m not sure either of them has “hit the wall.” ”

    I don’t want to get too far into this out of respect for Susan and the tone she wants to foster around here. In particular, it’s not going to be too productive to get down deep into TCF’s relative “hotness”, ala Kate Bolick. But let me say this. I didn’t say TCF definitely hit The Wall, but I am saying if she hasn’t yet impacted it, she knows she soon will. I’m with Ted D that TCF wouldn’t be suitable as marriage material for a lot of men, most definitely not me.

    Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard.

  • Abbot

    “Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard”

    And how hard or soft the landing will be on the other side is solely dependent on the men residing there

  • Desiderius

    Escoffier,

    “This is really not the place, but Ah-nold’s defeat had nothing to do with alpha/beta and everything to do with structural issues in California politics. If anything, his over-confident alphaness did him in.

    As Machiavelli says, a prince needs to learn to imitate the fox and the lion. The lion frightens the wolves, the fox avoids the snares. Arnie pre-2005 was all lion and no fox.”

    Appreciate the response. You’re exactly right on the need for foxiness, which was my point.

    I’ll admit to using alpha here in more of the Roissyian sense of the player who knows when to be the fox and when to be the lion. Alpha politicians play the (especially single) female vote by feeding the hamster when necessary and knowing when its necessary to do so.

    That’s why I said Arnie’s a sigma. Until he ran for office, he didn’t care enough about what women thought of him to learn the intricacies involved in hamster care and feeding, nor did he likely need to given his other assets. It could also be argued that he gave in too easily to their frame and tried to supplicate to them (likely going against his instincts on the advice of his political advisers), which only made them despise him.

    As for whether it belongs here, getting to positive-sum games like those advocated by Dr. J likely requires an understanding of how negative-sum games (such as those involving Arnie, representing the common good, versus the unions in this case) work and how to master them first. That’s the “tat” in tit-for-tat.

    Without mastery of the tat, one never gets to tit.

  • Ted D

    J – “That may well be true, but it doesn’t prove the existence of a wall. I was talking about the wall, not advocating for TCF.”

    “The Wall” doesn’t have to be old age ya know. “The Wall” is simply the point past which a woman can no longer pull a guy as high up the food chain as she could yesterday. Most women hit “The Wall” by getting older, but in TCF’s case she ran at “The Wall” full speed ahead and as Deti pointed out, she may not have hit it yet, but she is damn close to it. For a women that hasn’t even reached 30, that is a very scary thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “The Wall” is simply the point past which a woman can no longer pull a guy as high up the food chain as she could yesterday.

      I think J raises a good point about the Wall. Obviously, everyone ages, and with age we become less attractive. Women get more wrinkles earlier than men, our lips thin out, and we generally reflect our declining fertility. In this sense, there is indeed a Wall. However, it’s not true that women’s tastes remain the same as they age. Cougars notwithstanding, a woman of 30 is probably not going to be interested in a 25 year old guy. Generally, women still prefer men older than themselves, and that remains true as we age.

      So there’s no absolute, and I don’t doubt that J gets overtures at 50, probably from the men around her age or a little older. An attractive woman of 30 will have fewer options than her 25 year-old counterpart, in the sense that she’s now fishing in a pond that includes more men who have already been married, are dads, don’t plan to marry, etc.

      I went to visit my oldest friend in Asheville, NC a couple of weeks ago. I met lots of couples in their 40s and 50s who had recently married – and every single one of them met via online dating.

      So the Wall is real, but it doesn’t choke off the supply of interested men, because their standards are relative to their own SMV, including their age.

      There was a guy on one blog recently who is 57 and trying to pull women in their 20s. I hope he didn’t buy the Economy pack of Trojans. If he’s a relative 7, let’s say, he can pull a 7 of 50, or a 4 of 30. I doubt he can even dip into the 20s. Only wealth could compensate.

  • Desiderius

    J,

    “I dunno, Det. You had me until you brought up the wall.”

    If enough women delay marriage, some of them will definitely hit the wall, but Egan, Bolick, et. al. are bad illustrations of that truth. Alpha females have a get-out-of-jail-free card if they really want to marry well. Setting norms based on that is still a bad idea for the women who don’t.

  • J

    Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard

    I’m no so sure about that. I see widows in their 70s dating and even occasionally remarrying (though losing the late husband’s SS is a huge disincentive). But if even the elderly pair up again, where and what is the wall then?

    My mom reached a point where my dad no longer felt the need to keep an eye on all the other old bucks at nursing home, but they were both crapping in their Depends at the time. Is that the Wall?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      My mom reached a point where my dad no longer felt the need to keep an eye on all the other old bucks at nursing home, but they were both crapping in their Depends at the time. Is that the Wall?

      That’s exactly when I plan to hit the wall! LMAO

  • J

    “The Wall” is simply the point past which a woman can no longer pull a guy as high up the food chain as she could yesterday.

    OK, that definition makes some sense. Thanks, Ted.

    Most women hit “The Wall” by getting older,

    Yeah, but men age too. Most of the widows I see can still pull a guy comparable to the late husband.

    but in TCF’s case she ran at “The Wall” full speed ahead

    So, it’s the dissolution…OK, I can see that.

  • Ted D

    J – “But if even the elderly pair up again, where and what is the wall then?”

    See my post above. Perhaps 70yo women can sometimes still pair off. I’d wager that those women are probably leaps and bounds above the average 21you women in morality and values, which at that age is far more important than looks.

    that being said, I bet that 70yo women could have pulled a higher status man when she was in her prime. THAT is the definition of the wall to me: anything after peak opportunity to bag a big fish. Surely such a woman can and often does find a man, but he will not be the highest/best/most alpha/”whatever trait you find important” man she “could” have snagged before.

    In short, post wall the women as to settle for less than she would have previously.

  • Escoffier

    “I assume most men would not wish to marry someone who sold autobiographical sex stories for a living.”

    This is a safe assumption.

  • HanSolo

    @J

    The wall is not a good metaphor in some senses. It’s more like a gradual decline where the caliber of partner you can attract is declining too.

    However, the wall is a good metaphor if the woman wants to attract the same level of men she was before 30, especially in terms of the man’s SMV.

  • Ted D

    J – “So, it’s the dissolution…OK, I can see that.”

    There ya go! ;-)

  • Ted D

    J – “However, the wall is a good metaphor if the woman wants to attract the same level of men she was before 30, especially in terms of the man’s SMV.”

    Well considering its use in the ‘sphere, doesn’t that make perfect sense? “The Wall” tends to appear when a Kate Bollick claims she can’t find a good man. Of course not! She should have found him a decade ago! In her case, she will probably do fine because of her position in life. But, how many women can claim the same?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Of course not! She should have found him a decade ago! In her case, she will probably do fine because of her position in life. But, how many women can claim the same?

      Reports of Kate Bolick, TCF or Tracie Egan having hit the wall are greatly exaggerated, IMO. I have little doubt that Kate Bolick could pull some high status alpha in his 40s. Director of the OMB or some such. Maybe Editor in Chief of a big magazine. High priced lawyer. I think Tracie Egan is beautiful in her wedding photo – I’d give her a 9. 8 at the very least. Personally, I don’t think TCF is more than a 6 or so, but I do not see evidence that she’s been ridden hard and put away wet :)

      For those who are going to say that I can’t judge as a woman, I just read a study that demonstrated that both sexes rate attractiveness the same, both for the opposite sex and their own. So there! I am looking forward to judging female beauty with impunity!

  • Mullan

    ”Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard”

    And don’t forget that the more sexual partners a woman acquires, the quicker she hits the wall. Some women can, at least externally, maintain a youthful appearance, like this 32 year old woman down my street. She’s attractive and she has invited me to take tea at her house with her, but after being told by her that she averages 30 guys a year… nah, I think I’ll pass.

    On the other hand I have met girls in their early 20’s, some in their late teens who’ve hit the wall pretty hard by the time I met them. They had the ”one-thousand cock” stare that is mentioned a lot in MGTOW forums, they were bitter, incapable of bonding with a man, and hopped from Alpha male to Alpha male as a rotation pump and dump girl – and yet they insisted in their belief that they were going to find a good guy to marry them.

    That is, after they finally realized that Johnny B. wasn’t going to get down on one knee for her.

    By looking at my sister and by controlling who she spends time with, I learn that the teen girls who are sexually active are usually the ones who have what I’d call the beta look(a semblance of resignation, slight frustration and weariness) but these girls are only 14-17 years old and already this toxic? The bright-eyed, always cheerful ones tend to be the deeply religious ones(virgins) and despite my sister belonging to the ”cheerleader” looks department both my dad and I know what these boys sniffing around want and my sister dutifully knows that boys are off-limits.

    Shame that most fathers and brothers have been too domesticated by their wives and mothers. Things could be different.

    Oh, and I see a LOT of very attractive and average girls in college already splattered on the wall in their late teens.

  • Desiderius

    Ramble,

    “Desi, it is a little odd to hear you use the Alpha/Beta terms. I would not have pegged you for someone who would decide to make use of that paradigm.

    I am assuming that you do not buy into in the way that the likes of Roissy does, but still.”

    The healthier a society, the more SMV lines up with MMV, so one can speak of alpha (higher relative status) and beta (lower relative status) without much controversy. A mark of the disease in the SMP is the bifurcation between SMV and MMV that causes confusion when using the terms.

    In this case, I’m speaking of alpha* in terms of dominance, and its clear at least to me that young women are screening for the capacity for dominance in their mating choices, and this preference is bleeding over into the political arena.

    I was talking to a group of young (22-25) people who had watched the debate and were really impressed by Romney’s performance. I asked if he’d shown any dominance and one of them said “Oh yeah, he was a total dick!” in a surprised tone of voice like they never expected that from him. They saw that as a good thing.

    Tit-for-tat starts with trust, but it requires the capacity to retaliate (stand up for oneself or one’s side) if the other isn’t playing fair. People, especially men, who don’t show that capacity are not readily entrusted with leadership positions, whether of a country or a marriage.

    * – VD breaks out the sigma here as a man who could dominate status hierarchies but chooses not the pay attention to them. That’s where I’d be if I had my druthers. I don’t.

  • Mullan

    ”Yeah, but men age too. Most of the widows I see can still pull a guy comparable to the late husband.”

    Yeah, but if the guy doesn’t get married and doesn’t bother with relationships he can amass quite a bit of cash and status, which will help him pull very attractive young women. Are the young women attracted to the guy’s bank account? Sure, but so are most women who marry betas.

  • Desiderius

    Ana,

    “I’m getting the feeling that you have a thing for bad girls. Don’t listen to the Sirens they will make you drown.”

    Heh – don’t worry about that, they tend to drop me like a rock when I (infrequently) try. They’re used to dominance games one way or the other (likely due to family dynamics growing up) and all I know from my own family is positive-sum egalitarian.

    All my relationships (6) that lasted over a month were with women of with N<3. The current one going well in the early stages is mid-30's and I'm almost certain her N is 1.

  • Desiderius

    “Dry humping is vastly underrated, at least from a female POV.”

    Always been my go to move.

  • Abbot

    “the more sexual partners a woman acquires, the quicker she hits the wall.”

    Wisdom. There is a reason why throughout history only a very small group of women were promiscuous in any generation. For one, they were predisposed to “handling it” and it was enough to go around for men who just wanted sex. Just like only a very small number of people ever got to hear an orchestra – today anyone can if they have electric and a disc. So today, that small group of multi cocked women has expanded greatly but most women, like long ago, are not predisposed to handling it. The angst is palpable.

  • Escoffier

    So, apropos of whether or not TCF finds a husband, here are some additional points.

    She may well, I don’t know. She has certainly limited herself. Her behavior alone shrank the pool of men who will even consider her dramatically. Being public about it shrank it further still.

    But her predicament is worse than even that, I’d say. Obviously, guys who care about N are out. But what about guys who could be convinced to get past the N? The public way she boasted about this is a huge problem. Tom will be along later to say I am insecure, but here’s the brute truth: even a guy who can get over a high N is not likely to want to come face to face with her former conquerers. Nor is he likely to relish the prospect of having the people he introduces here to KNOW that she was a proud slut in her former life.

    And it gets worse from there. The UMC/Davos class professes to be “non-judgmental about matters of sex but really they just conceal their judgementalism under layers of other concerns. So, right, we don’t judge what you do in the bedroom or how we live your private lives. But you can bet that HR will be Googling the hell out of you before they hire you and when they find stuff like this … offer withdrawn. Not that they will ever say why.

    So her own prospects are limited. But a potential hubby has to take that into account too. In the world in which I live/work, he really can’t bring a slut like that to a conference or corporate function and not expect to suffer for it. No one will say so, but all the men will think him a fool. I know I would. His career would likely suffer and his social life definitely would.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    In response to P J

    The few high N women I’ve been with were not anything to write home or to this blog about. Not dead fishes so much but talked a big talk and didn’t deliver. Just because a girl has been around doesn’t equate to openness or being exciting in the bed at all, nor does it automatically lead to some universal man pleasing skill. Every guy is different.

    Low N 18 year old I was in a LTR with @ 19 was super enthusiastic, very open minded and whole lot of fun in bed. She had very little experience at all. We did pretty much everything that didn’t involve extreme pain, cutting or poo and pee.Those high N “sex goddesses” however balked at anything other than basic sex and blowjobs.

    I know that SOME women can handle casual, but a lot simply can’t. I think it’s a really bad idea to essentially shame those that don’t want to have casual by promoting a cultural meme of women should be out racking up numbers like any guy can or she’s a loser. I mean this is my limited casual experience, but both of those started out with the women saying explicitly “this is just sex and nothing more”… 3 months later I’m somehow the anti-christ because I won’t date them…? This is where the damage gets done.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Me: For me as an INTJ, my first thought would have been, aren’t you concerned that you might wind up on the front page of a newspaper as the woman who disappeared, got knifed in an alley, tossed out of a window, got murdered in her apartment, etc.? Don’t you have any natural sense of self-preservation?????

    This reminds me when I didn’t know I was watching the movie version of “Sexcapades of a married whore while her husband and kids are out of town aka the bridges of Madison county” when I saw Meryl Streep character inviting the photographer new in town to stay in her home I though. OH “this is a thriller about a stupid women getting murdered or kidnapped and having to scape!” And back then Clint Eastwood only played bad guys so that didn’t helped. Five minutes later I couldn’t believe what the freak the movie was really about.

    “Escaping from biology” strikes me as magical thinking.

    I like the term Trascending Biology…much better or still unrealistic?

    Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard.

    Captain Susan I detect another failure on male/female communication. I will attempt to engage. If I don’t survive the mission tell my mother I love her. :)

    I think the problem with the metaphor of “The Wall” is that it gives the imaginary of a moment in which you will suddenly become invisible to any men and for women this is not true and we all know never will be.
    Is more accurate that is a slowly decline in the number and/or quality of males you are going to be. There is a very good scene in “The mirror has two faces” where Mimi Rogers character (who has been hot all her life) explain to Barbra Straisand (Who recently became hot) how it works, paraphrasing from memory” At the peak you enter a room and all eyes of the men are on you, but slowly every time you enter the room less and less men look at you till one day you realized that they are looking at someone else now your moment passed”
    The pain of the wall is that a woman slowly start to hamsterize and compromise in order to try to keep the same level of SMV and is better to hamsterize in order to date a man that is lower in your long list of requirements than you expected than to be single, of course NAWALT I do think some women change when their estrogen levels get lower, medication or therapy allows them to see the world differently but as with cads is a huge risk, YMMV.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ana

      I will attempt to engage. If I don’t survive the mission tell my mother I love her.

      Hahaha! Don’t worry, I have your back!

  • Jonny

    From reading the exerpts of Clark Flory, she is trying to back away from casual sex a few times. I don’t know if she has made it. It appears to be a bad habit to break. That’s why men don’t trust women with pasts. People don’t really change. Certainly time changes you, but at 28, she has many more casual humping years left. She might not quit until she is over her casual sex days and then, it is only because she was refused. She will still visit bars. She can’t avoid going. It’s like a moth to a light. She gets something out of the encounters and it isn’t the sex.

    There is no reason that she knows what a long term relationship involves. Casual sex and LTR are not the same. One means no attachment, which she loves. The other means attachment and commitment, which is a “danger.” She will only end up breaking a guy’s hearts since she is heartless in that respect. She should only be with people with similar situations. Then she’ll write about it like the porn writer that she is.

  • Ramble

    Tit-for-tat starts with trust, but it requires the capacity to retaliate (stand up for oneself or one’s side) if the other isn’t playing fair. People, especially men, who don’t show that capacity are not readily entrusted with leadership positions, whether of a country or a marriage.

    I understand all this. it was more that you were using the terms Alpha and Beta and in a fairly simple fashion. Granted, I will often use the term Beta when feeling lazy. Otherwise, I find the terms Alpha and Beta (even with the added Sigma, Omega and Herb terms thrown in for added nuance) to be way too simple to be all that helpful in describing what is actually happening in the real world.

  • Zach

    Very good post Susan. Not a lot to comment on. You might want to check out this site: betcheslovethis.com. It’s pretty funny, and I’m not entirely sure whether it’s a pitch-perfect skewering of this type of girl, or a semi-serious attempt to codify the lifestyle. Anyway, what you should really focus on is no. 8 on the list, as well as all the “Dear Betch” and “Dear Head Pro” columns. You’ll find that despite the site representing the most utterly narcissistic, nasty aspects of modern female culture, almost all of the sex/dating advice is harsh, conservative, and focused on low-N and relationships. And how many of the girls writing in are writing about falling for guys or how to get a guy into a relationship. This at a site geared towards the supposed ice queens of the female world.

  • Ramble

    Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken.

    Men are so stupid. I can’t believe that men have been misleading young males all these years by telling them that they need to go all night to be considered studs.

    Luckily, women have been correcting this idea so that we did not go too far astray.

  • Ramble

    re: Dry Humping

    Susan/Desi,
    Are you guys talking about touching her over her clothes or this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTT43Kn-tNM

  • Jonny

    “I think I read that the average woman’s ideal is something like 13 minutes. Sounds about right. Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken.”

    Is premature ejaculation a problem? I must think it isn’t. Women say they feel empty after sex so men, like myself, assume its because we tried to finish too quickly before the women had a chance to warm up. I’m confused.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      Is premature ejaculation a problem? I must think it isn’t. Women say they feel empty after sex so men, like myself, assume its because we tried to finish too quickly before the women had a chance to warm up. I’m confused.

      Foreplay is essential, you can warm her up (or even get her to orgasm) before intercourse. When I think of PE, I think of 5 thrusts and done. For women who prefer to come during intercourse (only 20% of us can), then a little more time is likely to be required. This is a “must discuss” issue. Athol follows the “ladies first” strategy, as I recall.

  • Abbot

    “Nor is he likely to relish the prospect of having the people he introduces here to KNOW that she was a proud slut in her former life.”

    “he really can’t bring a slut like that to a conference or corporate function and not expect to suffer for it. No one will say so, but all the men will think him a fool. ”

    ALL the men. What sluts and their feminist advocates want so desperately is the devaluation of pussy and female sexuality so that women can just go do whatever with men and then have those same and other men not even consider that it happened. The real cherry on the cake is people actually celebrating it. Why? Because women are in such shock that something so easy to get and feels so good can actually harm them socially in the future. Its not about so-called “double standards” or “madonna whore” claims. Its is solely a connection that men get and they don’t and there is no point in explaining it to them when its simply a matter of avoiding them completely.

  • J

    Men are so stupid. I can’t believe that men have been misleading young males all these years by telling them that they need to go all night to be considered studs.

    Whnever I hear a guy claim to be literally able to “go all night,” I know I’ve found a liar–which is highly unattractive to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      Whnever I hear a guy claim to be literally able to “go all night,” I know I’ve found a liar–which is highly unattractive to me.

      A guy once told me that he is really good in the sack when he smokes pot, he can go for hours. My response, “Do NOT smoke pot.”

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    “I think I read that the average woman’s ideal is something like 13 minutes. Sounds about right. Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken.”

    Is there any truth to this!? If so I think I’m SOL…..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is there any truth to this!? If so I think I’m SOL…..

      OK, in the interest of promoting relationships, here are some estimates from around the web:

      Cosmo:

      So we polled over 2,500 real women (you ladies) and found that, well, you’re not exactly the wham-bam types.

      Seventy-seven percent of you said that in a perfect world sex (not including foreplay, just penetration to completion) would always last more than 10 minutes. And about one in five women say they like it to go on (and on) for more than 25 minutes.

      A little over 20 percent prefer to keep it under the 10 minute mark, with less than one percent saying they like to cap it at just three minutes. (Hey, if you can get to the finish line in less time than it takes to play a song, more power to you.)

      But the most common answer to the question “How long should sexy time last?” was 15-25 minutes.

      Em and Lo:

      WOMEN: How long do you think intercourse (actual penile penetration) should last, ideally?
      1-6 minutes 6.75%

      7-13 minutes 25.75%

      14-20 minutes 32.55%

      About a half hour 24.27%

      About an hour 10.68%

      Huffington Post:

      Dr. Irwin Goldstein, editor of the Journal of Sexual Medicine, cited a four-week study of 1,500 couples in 2005 that found the median time for sexual intercourse was 7.3 minutes. (Women were armed with stopwatches.)

      It’s difficult for both older men and young men to make sexual intercourse last much longer, said Marianne Brandon, a clinical psychologist and director of Wellminds Wellbodies in Annapolis, Md.

      “There are so many myths in our culture of what other people are doing sexually,” Brandon said. “Most people’s sex lives are not as exciting as other people think they are.”

      Esquire:

      According to the new study “Canadian and American Sex Therapists’ Perceptions of Normal and Abnormal Ejaculatory Latencies: How Long Should Intercourse Last?” adequate coitus lasts anywhere from three to seven minutes, not including the Pledge of Allegiance. This data, from all the normal people who see therapists for sexual problems, corresponds closely to earlier studies, which put the average at five to seven minutes. (We can safely blame the two-minute discrepancy on the Canadians.)

      “Very few people have intercourse per se [Latin for by thrust] that goes longer than 12 minutes,” says sex therapist Barry W. McCarthy. Essentially, ejaculatory inhibition, which is also called “delayed orgasm” or “junkie orgasm,” has less to do with actual time than an inability to ejaculate when you’d like. And premature ejaculation, which is also called “rapid ejaculation” or “your ejaculation,” refers to intercourse that lasts less than a minute or two.

      Read more: http://www.esquire.com/women/sex/average-sex-time-0709#ixzz28vpnr2Tq

  • Abbot

    The two stalwarts toe to toe —

    Amanda: I really liked your piece on going on a for-real date.

    Tracy: This was literally my first for-real date ever.

    Amanda: Ever? What do you consider the difference between a “for-real” date and what you called more of the hook-up culture?

    Tracy: Well, I should be clear: I’ve online dated. I’ve gone on dates. But most often they’re presented super casually. Like, hey, “Let’s hang out.” This was the first time someone clearly said to me: I want to take you out on a date, and here is the plan. Typically, whether it’s with “hang out” dates or hookups, it’s very low-investment—emotionally, financially, you name it.

    Amanda: What I liked about your piece was that you weren’t condemning hooking up; there’s an argument for keeping it light was the implication.

    Tracy: Right. I think it’s great that people can get to know each other casually. Grab a burrito and a beer! Make out at the bar! But it’s also nice to not feel totally stuck with diminished romantic expectations—as in, I can’t expect more than a taqueria “hangout” arranged last-minute via text message.

    Amanda: That’s something I’ve noticed that a lot of friends complain about since I’ve moved to NYC: They think a lot of guys are just a little too eager to keep it casual. Which makes me wonder if it’s just that now that I’m in my 30s, my friends are developing higher expectations, or if it’s a geographic thing, where men in Texas, where I used to live, were more serious from the get-go?

    Tracy: I think both are probably very real factors! For me, at least, “hookups” have been a great way of getting to know myself, getting to know other people and getting to know what I want, romantically and sexually. But as I’ve gotten older—how I hate that phrase—I’ve wanted a broader spectrum of romantic scripts. And that’s when the hookup/low-commitment default became frustrating.

    Amanda: I think that’s what I really liked—your high regard for diversity. It’s not that hookups are bad, you said, but that they seem mandatory. Why do you think it got to that point?

    Tracy: I can at least speak to my own experience: I think I gravitated toward casual hookups during a time when I wasn’t quite ready for more serious commitment. I needed some time to play and experiment. I think many people feel that way in their 20s. We’re spending more time single than ever before. I also think it might have something to do with the current emphasis on independence and individualism for both men and women. There’s a greater desire to make yourself, rather than to be made by someone else. And casual dating/hooking up is much more conducive to that.

    Amanda: That’s something that really was brought home in Hanna Rosin’s Atlantic piece about hooking up. She spoke to researchers that said that women were driving the culture as much as men, in no small part because, frankly, boyfriends can get in the way of other goals like getting your career underway.

    Tracy: Yep. I think it’s totally true for both sexes. It’s practical.

    Amanda: A lot of people still buy the line that it’s something that men impose on women, that men are taking advantage of women’s, uh, “easiness”. That always bothered me, because there was never really a clear line for me between how quickly you slept with someone and whether or not it turned into wuv.

    Tracy: Right!

    Amanda: Your point was really satisfying, which is that what we really need is the ability to diversify: hook up if we want, go slow if we want, just do a bunch of different stuff depending on where we’re at. I think that sort of thing causes a lot of men anxiety, though. I’ve noticed a lot of men in online spaces clamoring for a script.

    Tracy: Yes! There’s anxiety now about falling back on the more traditional dating script (which is not an entirely bad thing, mind you). I think it feels too desperate, too eager to many young men. And, of course, intimacy and vulnerability have always been absolutely terrifying.

    Amanda: Did you go on a second date with flowers guy who wanted to do nothing more but make out on the first date? Do you mind my asking? (I’ve been in a relationship for over six years now, so other people’s stories are my entertainment.)

    Tracy: Actually, we’ve gone on something like five dates in a little over a week!

    Amanda: Wow, that’s a lot. Sounds like it’s been fun.

    Tracy: Yes! It’s incredibly refreshing. And a large part of it is that I’m ready for that for the first time in my life, you know? It’s not like I’ve been yearning for that this whole time and have only now found a guy willing to give it to me.

    Amanda: LOL yeah, that strikes me as an incredibly critical point. But that really leads to the question I know a bunch of men are asking themselves, which is how do you know what script a woman is interested in? How do you know if you should keep it light or show up with flowers and a request that you take it slow?

    Tracy: Well, see, I think timing is so much of it. It really isn’t something that can be faked. You can only do what you’re ready to do. If you want to bring a woman flowers, do it. If you want to have casual flings, do that. Eventually you’ll find a lady who wants the same thing.

    Amanda: That’s something I think gets lost in the overflow of dating advice out there, which is that it really is something you can figure out for yourself.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    All my relationships (6) that lasted over a month were with women of with N<3. The current one going well in the early stages is mid-30's and I'm almost certain her N is 1.

    Ohh neat! *crossingfingersforyou* :)

    She might not quit until she is over her casual sex days and then, it is only because she was refused. She will still visit bars. She can’t avoid going. It’s like a moth to a light. She gets something out of the encounters and it isn’t the sex.

    This is a good point someone commented about the married women he regularly beds and he says that the majority are afraid of being invisible. I think after getting used to the validation coming from dating a lot of men who you can tell the same boring story again and again and the will find it fascinating because is new and shiny. How much validation can ONE husband supply? After some years its bound to become something he knows already. I think this factor is overlooked over the sex, given how many of this women confess later that the sex sucked anyway so maybe aside from focusing on the sex focusing on “Where her sense of self comes from?” could help both for this women and for the men to find a suitable wife, YMMV.

  • J

    Perhaps 70yo women can sometimes still pair off. I’d wager that those women are probably leaps and bounds above the average 21you women in morality and values, which at that age is far more important than looks.

    Well, these are generally widows or divorcees who are established in their communities, not barflies.

    that being said, I bet that 70yo women could have pulled a higher status man when she was in her prime.

    They generally end up with men similar in status to their late husbands, sometimes even friends of their husbands.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    OP
    I hope it doesn’t bother her she asked me to be brutally honest but I will do it on HUS because I think it can help others.
    I just say Sai pictures and I can tell you she is certifiable insane and/or need prescription glasses. She is really cute: Big eyes, sensual lips, clear skin, middle length hair… She looks better than me. She needs more internal work than outside work, a smile some eye contact and she will have a lot of attention.
    I think her problem is similar to one I had obsessing about some body part and not seeing the rest. I was focusing in a small scar I have on my left knee ( I don’t scar well) when I was younger and I didn’t saw anything but that, obsessed about it thinking that I was pretty much Quasimodo. It took me a while to get over it, learn to recognize my good features and work around the weak features and just plain cover up the bad ones and then made peace, accepted and what is more important saw my body as worth it of give and receive pleasure, of give and create life.
    LESSON OF THE DAY:
    You don’t need to be perfect to be attractive.
    Write that down on your mirror and read it everyday till sticks in your pretty head, Sai.

  • Sarah

    Anecdotes like this don’t prove anything. (Nor do your doctored stats, but that’s another issue.)

    Sex positivism isn’t about casual sex! It’s about having the freedom and self knowledge to make the best choices for yourself.

    But yeah, every time I post here to say that my personal life proves you wrong, you say that there will always be outliers and that doesn’t change the general cultural trends. And then you act like you don’t actually have a problem with my life choices.

    But that’s not really what these posts are about. These posts are about slut-shaming women like me so that we have less sex and thus make it easier for “good” women to find husbands. And that’s just not how sex works.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sarah

      (Nor do your doctored stats, but that’s another issue.)

      That’s quite an accusation! Care to elaborate?

      These posts are about slut-shaming women like me so that we have less sex and thus make it easier for “good” women to find husbands.

      I think you’ve missed a few posts. I’ve stated unequivocally that shame isn’t effective, because it focuses on individuals rather than the culture. The culture is where the real damage is done. We know now that fewer than 20% of women are promiscuous, and that they generally gravitate to promiscuous men.

      “May the he-whores and she-whores couple in kind,
      and leave the rest to be.”

      Jesus Mahoney

  • Ted D

    J – “They generally end up with men similar in status to their late husbands, sometimes even friends of their husbands.”

    I’m somewhat creeped out by this comment. I guess I’d like to know my wife could find company should I pass before her, but with one of my friends?! I suppose that if I manage to live to a ripe old age, I won’t be too concerned about it at that point.

  • Ted D

    “These posts are about slut-shaming women like me so that we have less sex and thus make it easier for “good” women to find husbands. ”

    Damn. They figured us out. I guess we should just wrap it up folks, the pozzies are onto us! /sarcasm off

    Yes Sarah, its all about you and your sisters in arms.

    Did you happen to see the solipsism post? You might want to give it a read.

  • Mullan

    ”But that’s not really what these posts are about. These posts are about slut-shaming women like me so that we have less sex and thus make it easier for “good” women to find husbands. And that’s just not how sex works.”

    I have no issue with women like you. And guys need to have some fun before they seek out good women. The bone I have with women like you comes from the danger of women like you being way too many, and my sister being too near the whole lot of you for my comfort.

    I’m sure a handful of you turn out fine, but nature did not intend for women to be on the cock-festival. I also don’t like how the whole bunch of you manipulate the guys who aren’t confident or never grew up with a positive male model of how to be dominant, ending up with the first girl(mostly girls like you) who puts out for them.

  • Abbot

    “Sex positivism isn’t about casual sex! It’s about having the freedom and self knowledge to make the best choices for yourself.”

    When did this “sex positivism” start? Who invented the term? Seems like a new label for the same old thing. What is an example of sex negativism?

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Sarah.

    How does your views differ from the rest of the commenters here ?

  • Abbot
  • Tasmin

    @Mule Chewing Briars
    “She’s written 331 pages about sex, and has yet to have an orgasm.”

    Leaves a pretty big hole in the meme about how those empowering decisions to hook-up (resulting in High N) nets all of that valuable “experience” and “getting to know my body…what turns me on…” stuff that will be so beneficial to her and her future LTR mate.

    Even assuming there are equal numbers of women who go down that path and figure out all their buttons and levers in all kinds of positive ways as there are who have nothing to show but High N and a bifurcated view of sex and intimacy, it seems like a risky and potentially costly path to “experience”.

    And count me out as the “next” guy who would be the target of the LTR who gets to unwind all of that. Her story demonstrates why the “experience” line is a major red flag for me. I’ll take my chances with an “inexperienced” woman who has the capacity and desire to build intimacy and mutual commitment and then spend a long weekend in bed.

    The message that hooking-up, “test-driving” people as a means to gain all of this mystical experience is a dangerous manifestation of the sex-pos kulture. It is very telling that her story equates the sex so often with porn, since not only was she pretending (lying) to all those men, but to herself as well, thus denying anything remotely valuable in terms of real experience with intimacy and the true joys of sex. Yet here is a High N woman, with very little “experience” with the communication, closeness, exploration, – – and yes, orgasmic finale of actual intimacy and sex. It is rather sad really.

  • Mullan

    ´´Leaves a pretty big hole in the meme about how those empowering decisions to hook-up (resulting in High N) nets all of that valuable “experience” and “getting to know my body…what turns me on…” stuff that will be so beneficial to her and her future LTR mate.´´

    I don’t need to stick my penis inside every woman to know what I like. Most women(and most men) start in their masturbatory habits when they are very young. By the time a young woman becomes old enough to be sexually active(anything less than 18 to me feels wrong and foolish), she already knows what she likes, and should have no problem in telling her boyfriend what she wants him to do.

    Sarah’s using excuses to justify her desires. Yeah, and Hugh Hefner still pops out viagra like water because he’s trying to find out if he’s heterosexual.

  • Jason773

    This is too good. In the words of Kenny Bania “That’s gold Jerry! Gold!”

    Abbott thinks this broad is going to get married some day, but honestly I’d bet against it. Unlike a lot of her grllll power sisters out there, her personal life is forever archived on the interwebz, and even the most beta men, with their delusions of disney romance, will google her and decide to get a few pumps in before they dump her. I mean seriously…she got plowed by her favorite porn star and some guy would want that to be the mother of his children? Even betas can only handle so much, and that’s beyond the realm of acceptability.

    Her only chance is to find some mangina male feminist, but she would probably hate that kind of guy anyways based on her own accord.

    The countdown to her first cat is already starting…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The interview with Marcotte is hilarious. Marcotte as Texas cheerleader.

      The timing is very interesting – and Marcotte says this:

      On one side, you have more conservative commentators wringing their hands about the “hook-up culture,” arguing that in our rush to be sexually liberated, we women have ruined our own lives by letting men have sex with us without extracting promises of commitment first.

      That’s me. :) I linked to Marcotte in my original post as a man hater, my guess is she got right on the horn to TCF.

      One “Barrow” is over there plagiarizing me in the comments! Is that you Abbott? At least he provided a link to bring those floozies over here!

      TheDude
      How arrogant for Marcotte to assume that the man should wonder what “script” the woman is interested in. Why is the man supposed to wonder when to “keep it light” or “show up with flowers?” That’s the whole point of the hookup culture, men don’t have to be romantic anymore. The milk is free!

      And flowers? Please. Doesn’t Marcotte know that flowers are a symbol used by the patriarchy to demonstrate female weakness? I can’t believe a woman would even accept flowers from a man in the 21st Century. A firm handshake should be sufficient.

      TheDude
      What quals are required to be a “sex writer” again? How did I not get in on this scam? She writes about an activity that literally almost EVERYBODY does. The vast majority of people do it all the time.

      It’d be like someone being a “walk writer.” And not like power walkers or professional race walkers or anything, but just putting one fricking foot in front of the other.

      devnull

      Please compare and contrast the role of a woman in “hooking up” with the role of a toilet in urination.

      In both cases the man squirts fluid into a receptacle for which he has no respect.

      At some point self respect needs to enter into the picture. If a man doesn’t think that you’re worth dinner and conversation you probably shouldn’t let him inseminate you.

      thatsnotbutter

      How dumb must that guy be to ask Miss Clark-Flory on a series of proper dates to bed her when a drunk text and an available futon were all every guy before him needed.

      A loner, a rebel

      I like how she wants more, but is careful to no invalidate her prior loose self….

      while at the same time giving men the playbook of how to pick up these end-of-life-cycle-hotties….

  • Mullan

    ”Her only chance is to find some mangina male feminist, but she would probably hate that kind of guy anyways based on her own accord.”

    Isn’t manzboobs or what’s his name single? But does he produce sperm at all?

  • Sassy6519

    Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken.

    I may be alone on this, but I love having sex for hours. I’m typically the person during sex that wears the other person out.

    I don’t understand sometimes how I’m so different from the other women here, in a lot of ways.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      I don’t understand sometimes how I’m so different from the other women here, in a lot of ways.

      Was your vagina made by Michelin? That’s a whole lot of friction, and there’s not enough lube in the world to make that feel good for more than an hour.

  • J

    @Ted #142

    LOL. Yeah, it’s the weirdest frickin’ thing, but I’ve seen it several times. My uncle ended up with his wife’s BFF of over 50 years. The mom (Mary) of a guy DH grew up ended up with her husband’s buddy (Marv). I think these couples bond over missing the departed partner, have things in common, have years of friendship behind them, raised their kids together, etc. It’s creepy, but it sorta makes sense.

    Take Mary for example, she was in her late sixties and nursed her husband through a long illness before he died. Marv and wife were there to offer support throughout the process. Then Marv’s wife died. Mary was there for support. What was Marv going to do, troll the bars for a 20 yo or continue to rely on Mary who makes one helluva tuna casserole and attends the same church as he does? What was Mary going to do? She makes a mean cookie, but she’s not online dating saavy? Their kids were all weirder out until they realized that it was better to have mom and dad happy together than to have to take care of them.

  • Abbot

    “Sarah’s using excuses to justify her desires.”

    That is why the term “sex positive” was made up. These gals sit around messaging each other to come up with expressions designed to make so-called “antis” ashamed. Who wants to be called “sex negative” they say and they are right. Sex Poz is exactly that – an excuse. Why? Because these women know full well that men universally do not want sluts for the long term. So if you don’t you’re sex negative. Don’t like abortion? Pooof! You’re anti-choice and therefore unAmerican. Talk about word smithing as propaganda.

    Her desires? We all have these desires. Women can pick just about any man for sex and some really take advantage of that. That is the “desire” to be able to do that AND for that to be perfectly normal. How many times does all this have to be said?

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Sassy

    “I may be alone on this, but I love having sex for hours”

    I sure freaking hope not… otherwise I’m gonna searching for a somehow even rarer unicorn…ugh

  • Ted D

    “Talk about word smithing as propaganda.”

    This is primarily my reason for disliking rhetoric so much. It isn’t that the tool itself isn’t useful, its that the most common uses FOR that tool are generally detrimental. I guess most people want to be told what to think rather than decide for themselves…

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Any guy who thinks we want to go for hours is sorely (heh) mistaken.”

    I hope your referring to intercourse. Sex, including all the non PinV portions, cannot be measured for it never ends.

    ———————————————————

    T all the guys who are in the she’ll never get married camp cause its on the internet.

    I agree, any dip shit stupid enough to marry a woman who makes a living off of writing about her own sex life deserves… frankly I don’t think he exists.

    However, maybe I’m an outlier on this but has anyone here every actually googled their wife/SO? (BTW, just did. Theres a very pretty MD with the same name.)

    Change of jobs, switch up the social circles and make a funny amnesia story covering the years 15-30 and she’ll be just fine.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I hope your referring to intercourse.

      Yes, strictly that. There’s nothing better, IMO, than spending about 36 straight hours in bed with someone you’ve just fallen hard for. But few of those are actually P in V.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    However, maybe I’m an outlier on this but has anyone here every actually googled their wife/SO? (BTW, just did. Theres a very pretty MD with the same name.)

    That is invasion of privacy so I would go on a limb and say that most people haven’t. I did hubby shares a name with a famous sportsman so that was hard to find and I my real name is the equivalent of Jane Smith hard to find me even if you looked, so even if you are paranoid somethings will be hard to find in some years. The internet is huge!

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “However, maybe I’m an outlier on this but has anyone here every actually googled their wife/SO? (BTW, just did. Theres a very pretty MD with the same name.)”

    I actually “Google” myself and my family on a semi-regular basis, just to see what shows up.

  • J

    I don’t see that happening at all. The men who lose their wives to death or divorce either don’t remarry, have casual sex with escorts, or they marry a hot woman who is much younger than them. I’d say that the older women either end up alone or find an older man.

    Well, we obviously travel in different circles. I don’t see men having casual sex with escorts or marrying a hot, younger women. Most of the men I associate with are reluctant to trade money for sex. Many joke about the latter. Very few, even among the very wealthy, actually do it.

  • JP

    “I don’t understand sometimes how I’m so different from the other women here, in a lot of ways.”

    Welcome to third standard deviation land.

  • Jason773

    Lokland,

    I think it is fairly common for the younger generation to google their SO now, especially with social media such as twitter/facebook etc. While Anacaona thinks that is an invasion of privacy, I couldn’t disagree more. If I can google your name and find public hits about you, then that is completely fair game; it’s not like hacking someone’s computer or stealing their passwords.

    So in short, yes, I have googled my SO before and I know many others who have done it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      I think it is fairly common for the younger generation to google their SO now, especially with social media such as twitter/facebook etc.

      I have heard some funny stories about this. A girl googles a guy before a first date, but then has to remember what she discovered vs. what he reveals so that she doesn’t get caught “snooping.” Meanwhile, the guy let’s something slip – “I’m a runner too!” and she knows he found her high school track times. Both sexes do it, both feel sheepish about it. I would happily start the date by saying, “I googled you, you’ve done some interesting things!”

  • J

    I actually “Google” myself and my family on a semi-regular basis, just to see what shows up.

    Doesn’t everyone?

  • Todd

    @Sassy6514 (154)

    We are so here with the time thing. Heck, in my early days, it was hard for me to, um, pick up the pace, so to speak

    WRT to the Amanda Marcotte article, I liked how it paced out, and how she’s honest about not being emotionally ready for a relationship. As much as there’s a general push for commitment around these parts, I’d rather have someone who isn’t ready for commitment not commit rather than get in relationships by some arbitrary point. And at the outliers, some women just aren’t built for marriage. C’est la vie.

    Also, it’s interesting that she mentions being ready for certain scripts at one point vs. another, because a lot of Game people will flat out say that some women just aren’t ready. I think a lot of women see the promo language and just assume that the Game scene is about manipulating women who aren’t interested into sex. I think most men “get” that “get the girl with XYZ method GUARANTEED!!!!111″ doesn’t literally mean it will get every girl as much as get some girl at X higher percentage than before.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “Clearly the sex was neither thrilling nor fun – all she got out of it was a Sex and the City style story to be shared over brunch.”

    This is indicative of just how deeply all of this sex-pos (or whatever we call it) has invaded our culture. The value of the actual sex or what it means to her in terms of happiness or progression toward a relationship has become subordinated to the Image, the Story and her ability to frame it appropriately within the Script and spin it for her friends to lap up complete with high-fives dripping with envy.

    For many unfortunate women, the desire/need to fuel these instances of social proof has somehow trumped the desire/need to secure actual satisfaction and healthy intimacy. I’ve seen this up-close in two ways.

    In one, I dated a woman who confided in me that those brunches, bachelorette parties, girls nights out gatherings often made her feel anxious, even bad about herself, a lesser woman, alienated because she lacked these porn scripted escapades to share. She had a HS BF, a few college BF’s – married one of them and was divorced at 28. I met her just after she turned 31.

    Here was a beautiful, just lovely woman all around, feeling “bad” because she had been selective and had reserved her intimacy for committed relationships. And these were her friends. I knew some of her friends and most were not even as “active” as the women in the story here, but they had their stories.

    After we parted ways I learned that she had given in to this image and gone to “hanging out” with men of suspect character. Apparently she was tired of being left out, taking the tougher path. Upon moving to a new city she had gone the “just having fun” route. I hope that she was able to find what she wanted in that, but based on what I know about her from our time together I seriously doubt it.

    I saw in her all kinds of power in how she made her choices and aligned her desires, words, and actions and found that to be damn attractive. So much more so than the countless other women who can spin all kinds of tales about scoring guys. As a man in a relationship with her, I felt incredibly valued and her “inexperience” served only to deepen our shared experience in all kinds of ways.

    In other situations, I’ve seen the power of that Image, the social-proof via expressive sexuality from women who believe that these types of experiences and their stories are attractive to men. On a few occasions during casual conversation at a social gathering women have launched unsolicited, into stories about flings, conquests, kinks, etc. in shocking detail. They all do this with intent. Whether it is to establish this empowerment, communicate their “good-to-go” attitude, elevate their status in my eyes, or something else entirely, the general sense is that modesty has been replaced by something else. These women have been given a strong and consistent message that when it comes to sexuality, they can and even should assert their body of experience as proof of their desirability. I think this notion was in no small part the impetus for the blogger to espouse on hooking-up with all of her wisdom-through-experience in the first place.

    I’ve even encountered women who don’t have the actual body of experience but do everything they can to project an image suggesting as much. This has proven to be terribly problematic.

    I know some men respond positively to this, but I would guess that most of them respond positively because of the high probability of no-strings sex while they simultaneously place the woman in the non-wife bucket. The first part is what keeps this all in motion, its the second part is what the women never see coming.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      The value of the actual sex or what it means to her in terms of happiness or progression toward a relationship has become subordinated to the Image, the Story and her ability to frame it appropriately within the Script and spin it for her friends to lap up complete with high-fives dripping with envy.

      Yes, she’s starring in her own movie, which, as it happens, is one of the key descriptors for NPD. She openly admits this in describing all of the “acting” she did while with men, and seeks to turn her own bedroom into a movie set with a porn actor.

      The idea of even touching a porn actor in a handshake makes my skin crawl. If that doesn’t constitute “dirty” I don’t know what does.

      I’ve even encountered women who don’t have the actual body of experience but do everything they can to project an image suggesting as much. This has proven to be terribly problematic.

      Yes, more acting. The analogous experience for males is being the “Pretend Asshole” to get that short-term validation.

      I think there’s a post here about authenticity.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      On a few occasions during casual conversation at a social gathering women have launched unsolicited, into stories about flings, conquests, kinks, etc. in shocking detail. They all do this with intent.

      This is one of the commonly recommended “slut tells” but it hardly takes a sleuth to uncover this. Bastiat Blogger reports his students assuming this posture as a general rule.

  • Abbot

    “most people want to be told what to think rather than decide for themselves…”

    Feminism would be dead otherwise

  • Ted D

    “As a man in a relationship with her, I felt incredibly valued and her “inexperience” served only to deepen our shared experience in all kinds of ways.”

    THIS! There is something to be said for the feeling that comes with knowing that your SO was selective about who she/he “shared” herself/himself with and chose you. It is exactly why I’ve always been very conservative about sharing such intimacy. Unfortunately it seems that there are very few people that care about this particular point as they’d all prefer to “have fun” while they can.

  • Lokland

    Guess I’m an outlier.

    I fb people but thats typically work related (and TBH fb may not have existed when I met my wife, can’t remember) but the number of people I have actually googled is minimal to nonexistent.

    Chances of me finding an SOs autobiographical sex story blog is nonexistent.

    @J

    I’m younger than she is.

  • Todd

    @Jasmin 167:

    I’ve seen that phenomenon. I think the girl with the few BFs needed to find a new crew to roll with. I know women like to fit in with the group, and if the group she was rolling with wasn’t on her wavelength, she should have found a new group. That said, the phenomenon you mentioned is very real. If the women have good virtues, then it’s a positive thing. If it’s a crew with a messed up mindset (e.g. validation from high status men), then it can be damaging.

  • Zach

    @Sarah

    I’d written out 3-4 paragraphs of why you will get attacked here for your posts, focusing on cartel/supply-demand of sex analogies, and then realized completing it would take far more time than I have. Basically, in summation, the sex-positive women are seriously damaging the marriage marketplace for more conservative women. As in when sex is so liberally available, men are far less likely to commit to marriage or any sort of relationship. And given that the vast, vast majority of women still want relationships/marriage, it’s essentially benefiting the few (sex-pos) at the expense of the many (let’s call them relationship-pos). Slut-shaming is a tool to attempt to redress this imbalance. You’re correct in that in the past, slut-shaming hurt the women who loved to have casual sex, but given that the situation is probably something like 80/20 want marriage vs. want casual sex, it’s a far better arrangement for women than a setup that benefits the 20 at the expense of the 80.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And given that the vast, vast majority of women still want relationships/marriage, it’s essentially benefiting the few (sex-pos) at the expense of the many (let’s call them relationship-pos).

      It is especially annoying to learn that virtually all of these women eventually confess to having had bad sex and bad emotional experiences while they were enthusiastically defending (and proselytizing) casual sex.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    While Anacaona thinks that is an invasion of privacy, I couldn’t disagree more.

    Oh I didn’t expressed myself well that is the idiotic PC reasoning that is feed to people so my guess is that few will do it on the American dating market which is the one Flory is going to be fishing from. I said lower that I did it with hubby and I have a google alert with my pen name.

  • Mullan

    ”However, maybe I’m an outlier on this but has anyone here every actually googled their wife/SO? (BTW, just did. Theres a very pretty MD with the same name.)”

    Yeah, I did it with all of my girlfriends and with the girls I was interested in. As soon as I find they are on facebook, I’m pretty much done with the girl. I remember back when most girls didn’t put their facebooks as private and it was an attention-whoring festival. Oh, and if I see a girl hugging her guy friends as if they’re are their sisters when they are: I’m done.

    I have no interest in women who have the need for beta orbiters.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Desiderius…”I was talking to a group of young (22-25) people who had watched the debate and were really impressed by Romney’s performance. I asked if he’d shown any dominance and one of them said “Oh yeah, he was a total dick!” in a surprised tone of voice like they never expected that from him. They saw that as a *good* thing.”

    That is fascinating. I thought Romney was (fairly) firm, but not at all rude…I didn’t hear him say anything that would be out of place in a spirited discussion among business colleagues.

    Has the “self-esteem” thing been pushed to the point where kids are regarding any challenging as dickiness? If so, perhaps that explains thy they’re seeing being a dick as a *good* thing…if the alternative is being a total submissive wimp.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      Has the “self-esteem” thing been pushed to the point where kids are regarding any challenging as dickiness? If so, perhaps that explains thy they’re seeing being a dick as a *good* thing…if the alternative is being a total submissive wimp.

      Someone else recently suggested something similar – that in an era when men are shamed for dominant masculine behavior, women are so hungry for it they enthusiastically embrace jerks. I think there’s something to this.

  • Mullan

    ”I’ve even encountered women who don’t have the actual body of experience but do everything they can to project an image suggesting as much. This has proven to be terribly problematic.”

    Yeah. I met a 20 year old girl who acted as if she was a bad girl. Told me she had slept with xxx number of guys, that she had done all of the sex positions in Kama Sutra. The irony was that she was trying to lock me down, to enter a relationship with me, for she told me she’d only have sex with me if I was in a relationship with her.

    Turns out she was a virgin. Seriously. But after being systematically told by her that she had had anal sex, threesomes and on, I decided this girl wasn’t relationship material and I’m not into casual sex. She was a virgin. But still a liar.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Cougars notwithstanding, a woman of 30 is probably not going to be interested in a 25 year old guy. Generally, women still prefer men older than themselves, and that remains true as we age.”

    This is gonna be really rude.

    But once you stop producing eggs, no one cares.
    Only those involved in the production effort or the products themselves care ad that largely depends on how their treated.

    Its for this reason that having an elderly woman call you a catch is pretty much an indirect insult of the “your not good enough to reproduce” variety.

    Back to my point, no one cares about what a women who is not capable of reproducing finds attractive. Its an evolutionary death wish to ever think that being like that is in anyway acceptable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Cougars notwithstanding, a woman of 30 is probably not going to be interested in a 25 year old guy. Generally, women still prefer men older than themselves, and that remains true as we age.”

      This is gonna be really rude.

      But once you stop producing eggs, no one cares.

      Ha, I produced eggs until I was 54. Puny and wrinkled, no doubt, but still coming down the chute every month. Also, there is really very little May-December dating or marriage. The idea of an old guy getting a young woman is just a non-starter. I have literally never seen it in my own community unless the guy was very wealthy, and then the age difference was 20+ years.

      If you don’t think men hit the wall, with their saggy tummies and flat asses, gray chest hair, bushy eyebrows and ears, then you’re not being realistic.

      My husband is 58, and if I died tomorrow I have no doubt he could get an attractive woman in her 40s. And he is a catch, if I do say so myself.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    Piggybacking on what Lokland said, I can see people getting married in their 40s and 50s, but no one cares and it doesn’t make a difference. This might be a good arrangement in terms of sharing the last 20-30 years of life with someone, but they aren’t producing children and the dynamics at play aren’t the same.

    In all sincerity, I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that any decent looking woman who isn’t off the market by 30yo either wasn’t looking for committment or has something wrong with her. Some may even lower this number to say 26yo or 27yo, but I’ve given a little leeway. It’s a bit anecdotal, but every single 30yo+ chick I know through work or social cirlces is creeping ever closer to the cat-lady meme, and I legit can see the fear in their eyes of being single. At least you are doing good work by alerting women to this reality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In all sincerity, I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that any decent looking woman who isn’t off the market by 30yo either wasn’t looking for committment or has something wrong with her.

      That’s fair – I wasn’t speaking of never married women. I will say that several of my classmates at Wharton got to 30 w/o marrying – they were smart and high-achieving – not particularly masculine, though. Not sure if you consider that “something wrong with them.” A female Managing Director at an IB who is single is going up against very long odds. Too heavy a hitter.

  • Andy

    So let me get this straight. A plain woman goes at it like a slut beast and tells everyone. She then decides that she has finished with all that and is ready for a relationship, she clicks her fingers and thinks she can reinvent slut beast as marriage material? I’m sorry but are you women mad?

    Gee will you marry me honey, we can watch that male porn star you like who boffed you……invite him to the wedding…yeah! And we tell the kids….cos let’s face it in junior high their friends will tell them….that will work out great? Wow you are just like so sophisticated and knowledgeable cos you have sat on all that cock!

    The ability of women to behave atrociously and expect no judgement to follow them and to escape the consequences of their behaviour is amazing. And then to blame feminism instead of themselves…….I see a hamster!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Andy

      I’m sorry but are you women mad?

      Hey, I’m on your side!

      In the Amanda Marcotte interview, TCF reveals that she has now been on five dates in one week with Mr. Right. I don’t have a good feeling about this – way in way soon is a major red flag, as we all know. She’s going to kick his beta ass to the curb any day now. What will the next installment in the saga be?

  • JP

    Googling myself is pretty funny given that lots of money goes into my Google position.

    In fact, I just googled myself and I’m number 1 out of 218,000 results.

    And that’s with my name in quotes.

    Without quotes and I’m 1 out of 48,600,000.

  • Plain Jane

    “Cougars notwithstanding, a woman of 30 is probably not going to be interested in a 25 year old guy. Generally, women still prefer men older than themselves, and that remains true as we age.”

    A 30 year old woman with a 25 year old man is not a cougar. They are of the same generation.

    10 years up or down does not a cougar/silver fox make.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      10 years up or down does not a cougar/silver fox make.

      Hmmm, disagree. 10 years up for a woman is Cougar land. 10 years up for a man is not Silver Fox land. Double standard, too bad.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “For those who are going to say that I can’t judge as a woman, I just read a study that demonstrated that both sexes rate attractiveness the same, both for the opposite sex and their own. So there! I am looking forward to judging female beauty with impunity!”

    Butnyoumare focussing only on looks here. I don’t care if TCF is an 11 (meaning the hottest looking woman on the planet) her attitude towards sex is revolting to me, and the fact that she put it out in the net for all to see is her death bell. IMO any guy that “locks her down” is either:
    1. Trying to “tame the tiger”
    2. Dumb as a rock
    3. Has low/no self respect and will take whatever he can get.

    I am a man of limited options and I’d still pass. I would rather be forced to pay for sex than spend my life with a woman that bragged about banging a porn star on the Internet.

    But, you are probably right. Some guy will probably marry her. After all, there is a sucker born every day.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    I actually agree with your 1 to 10 ratings. TCF is no more than a 5.5 or 6, assuming she is slim, based on that headshot, and the other one in the marriage photo actually does look good, probably a 7.5 or 8 in my book, depending on her body (which can’t be seen).

  • Höllenhund

    >>She may get someone, but that someone will not be who she could have gotten. And she will likely divorce him eventually because she can no longer pair bond.<<

    Good observation, but I think it's more likely she won't get married at all. Just like Kate Bolick, who has never in her life been able to get commitment from a man that she found attractive.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    So Mullan is Reginald is Piper is Evilalpha is Michael is….so annoying.

  • Plain Jane

    ”Every woman hits The Wall. The only question is when, and how hard”

    J:
    “I’m no so sure about that. I see widows in their 70s dating and even occasionally remarrying (though losing the late husband’s SS is a huge disincentive). But if even the elderly pair up again, where and what is the wall then?”

    > Hitting their wall means they can only attract men who have also hit their wall. This is why old people 70+ pair up with other old people, instead of say 50 year olds who still look ok for their age.

    But yeah, I’m shocked that people are still thinking about dating and even sex at those ages. Shudders to think.

    J:
    “My mom reached a point where my dad no longer felt the need to keep an eye on all the other old bucks at nursing home, but they were both crapping in their Depends at the time. Is that the Wall?”

    > Ha ha. Yep, its the upper limit of the wall, but again, other Depends dependents will still find her attractive.

    Mullan:
    “And don’t forget that the more sexual partners a woman acquires, the quicker she hits the wall. Some women can, at least externally, maintain a youthful appearance, like this 32 year old woman down my street. She’s attractive and she has invited me to take tea at her house with her, but after being told by her that she averages 30 guys a year… nah, I think I’ll pass.”

    >….. So, um, how does this “prove” that high N women hit their wall quicker, exactly?

    Mullen:

    ”Yeah, but men age too. Most of the widows I see can still pull a guy comparable to the late husband.”

    ” Yeah, but if the guy doesn’t get married and doesn’t bother with relationships he can amass quite a bit of cash and status, which will help him pull very attractive young women. ”

    > Bullshit. Old rich men 70+ aren’t pulling very attractive young women, but sometimes older women who look good for their age. Like maybe 15 years young than the man. So a 75 year old still ok looking man with money might be able to pull a 60 year old if its just a dating relationship where he spends money on her. 60 year old women are not interested in playing nurse and orderly for old cronies around the clock. How do I know? I work with senior women and hear what they discuss. They’ve already raised kids, helped take care of grandkids, and often nursed their husbands until they died. They’re retired now and want to RELAX, not change diapers.

  • Plain Jane

    “Whnever I hear a guy claim to be literally able to “go all night,” I know I’ve found a liar–which is highly unattractive to me.”

    There are some men like that :)
    It doesn’t mean they will “pound” you for 4 hours straight (but they possibly could). What it means is that they can keep the erection all night long and you can mix up the lovemaking, and when you are ready for another “pounding” session, he’s ready for it.

    “A guy once told me that he is really good in the sack when he smokes pot, he can go for hours. My response, “Do NOT smoke pot.”

    I’d find this difficult to believe as pot smoking usually has the opposite effect.

  • Abbot

    “the few (sex-pos) at the expense of the many (let’s call them relationship-pos)”

    Its now

    “multipenis positive”

    That should shut their frickin yaps…or maybe not

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Susan

    Thanks for that info, I was starting to worry there. I’m with Sassy on the all night deal when ever possible, at least when the sex is good.

    This idea that most women didn’t want sex to last over 12 minutes was quite frightening…

  • Plain Jane

    SDS, don’t be fooled or discouraged, read my comment 191 above.

  • Benton

    I am amazed how Tracy Clark Flory’s behavior revolved around validation from men. Why would a woman risk pregnancy, infection, and other safety concerns if she didn’t even get orgasms!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Benton

      Why would a woman risk pregnancy, infection, and other safety concerns if she didn’t even get orgasms!

      Not only that, she didn’t even really get validation. She was screwing guys with tattoos that said, “forgive me.” She chose guys who dumped her before they pumped her. Where’s the validation in that?

  • HanSolo

    I wonder if women who are vaginally orgasmic like longer bouts of penetration than those who aren’t and for whom it’s kind of a nice pleasant thing for a while but not so pleasurable.

    In my experience, most women I have been with preferred longer than shorter (30-60 minutes instead of 5-15) and the only complaints were with the occasional time that I came after 5-10 minutes. With one girl I dated it always took me about an hour or more to come and she was always like “wow, that was so great” after.

    So, I got positive reinforcement when I went long, negative feedback when I was <10min. I can't vouch for truthfulness or what the ones in the middle were thinking.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      I wonder if women who are vaginally orgasmic like longer bouts of penetration than those who aren’t and for whom it’s kind of a nice pleasant thing for a while but not so pleasurable.

      No doubt. If a woman is relying on penile thrusting to do the job, she’s going to appreciate more of it rather than less.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    Was your vagina made by Michelin? That’s a whole lot of friction, and there’s not enough lube in the world to make that feel good for more than an hour.

    Perhaps it was.

    Also, I’m slightly insulted and laughing hysterically at the same time. You have such a way with words Susan.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      Also, I’m slightly insulted and laughing hysterically at the same time. You have such a way with words Susan.

      Forgive me, I was being irreverent. When it comes to sex, I think it’s impossible to generalize. I walked around wincing for six months when Mr. HUS and I got together. We were both abraded and raw! But there’s clearly some people on here who are down for the long haul!

      Whatever turns you on, Sassy!

  • HanSolo

    @Tasmin

    Did you see my response to you on the Pre-Wedding Jitters thread? If so, no need to reply but just wanted to make sure you hadn’t missed it since it’s easy to lose track of things in the voluminously awesome comment threads! lol In it I compare men and women to cats and dogs and hope that you find a loyal, appreciative, shall we say, fox! ;)

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/10/04/relationshipstrategies/pre-wedding-jitters-are-common-but-not-benign/comment-page-2/#comment-154749

  • J

    I wonder if women who are vaginally orgasmic like longer bouts of penetration than those who aren’t and for whom it’s kind of a nice pleasant thing for a while but not so pleasurable.

    It would seem to me that after an orgasm the vagina stops producing it’s own lubricants and irritation ensues.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    @ Susan

    Did you notice the comment set up they have over there? The ability of other commenters to “reply” to a specific comment? Man that would awesome for here, especially when these threads get so huge.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SDS

      I’ve tried nested commenting. The problem is that after about ten replies, the comments are one letter wide, it’s ridiculous. Believe me, a flat thread works better.

  • J

    That’s exactly when I plan to hit the wall! LMAO

    The beauty part is that you’ll be too frickin’ senile to know. You should see the crazy stuff that goes on in the nursing home. My mom pulled the hair of a crazy old broad who kept showing my dad her boobs. Every day was Madi Gras for her. No beads though…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      My husband’s grandmother conceived his father in a haystack at 17. Fast forward 75 years and she’s admitted to a nursing home. Her filters are GONE. She decides that a 59 year old guy with diabetes is her new boyfriend. He goes to his room one afternoon to find her naked between the sheets. He LJBFs her. That’s the way I want to go out.

  • HanSolo

    I googled a girl* I went out with a couple times in Brazil and found some naked T&A pictures from a photo shoot in a national magazine there that’s more revealing than Maxim but less than Playboy. We’d kissed but no more and when I saw the pics I was kind of like, damn, too bad we didn’t keep seeing each other. She hadn’t hidden the fact though. She is a model and occasional dancer on some of the tv shows and told me about being in the magazine. She just didn’t say she was naked. lol

    *different from the one I mentioned on the Pre-Wedding thread

  • J

    I will attempt to engage. If I don’t survive the mission tell my mother I love her.

    Ana, NO, don’t do it. Think of the baby. It’s not worth it.

    And if you don’t come back, we’ll have to go after you like in “Saving Private Ryan.”

  • Tasmin

    @HanSolo
    “Did you see my response to you on the Pre-Wedding Jitters thread? ”
    Yes! And thank you for your thoughts. I’m bad at tracking back my comments – and obviously have no idea how to link or block-quote.

    It was definitely the case that there was a difference in loyalty to the relationship with her. I am now much more attuned indications of external orientation and unilateral behaviors. But I am also much more aware of how I need to elevate my desires and strengthen those things of my own that help drive my overall happiness.

    It was all very costly experience of course, but there is value in even the darkest parts. The challenge now is to navigate an SMP that has moved further away from where my natural attributes reside thus requiring even more self-direction and discretion without the benefit of direct experience.

    I’m occasionally optimistic about finding the “fox” or “bitch” :-) but often times let the prevailing culture – regardless of its actual prevalence, get me down. In the meantime, some interesting, kind, and damn funny folks here make for good discourse on things that are far too often unsaid, undiagnosed, or just plain ignored “out there”.

  • HanSolo

    The wall is not like the vertical ice wall in Game of Thrones. It’s more like a gradual slope that leads you from a high-attention auction on top of the hill to the sparsely visited pasture, a journey of many years. There will still be some attention once you’re sent out to pasture but it will be much less frequent and of a similarly low SMV to oneself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The wall is not like the vertical ice wall in Game of Thrones.

      Great imagery. I was just talking about GOT at dinner tonight – telling my son I think he would like it a lot. I think it’s a guy show, mostly, though I do enjoy it.

  • HanSolo

    @Andy

    “A plain woman goes at it like a slut beast” ROFL

  • Plain Jane

    “My husband is 58, and if I died tomorrow I have no doubt he could get an attractive woman in her 40s. And he is a catch, if I do say so myself”

    Yeah and YOU could also get a reasonably attractive guy in his 40s because you keep fit and your photo is decent looking for your age. I know a number of well kept women in their 50s who even date men in their late 30s. Its not common, like I said, I know a FEW (3 actually), but they are there. And they’re not even thin.

    Granted, the guys they date are no Morris Chestnuts, they are average Joes, but they are amongst the regular people demographic who comprise the vast majority of Americans.

  • Jonny

    I do think men hit the wall, but we are talking about 50 versus 35 for women. Men have a 10 year advantage on women. I remarried at 43, while my wife was 33. Fertility is still in the picture. It wouldn’t be true if reversed.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      I do think men hit the wall, but we are talking about 50 versus 35 for women. Men have a 10 year advantage on women. I remarried at 43, while my wife was 33. Fertility is still in the picture. It wouldn’t be true if reversed.

      Agree 100%. I think 10 year advantage is about right.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    I know some men respond positively to this, but I would guess that most of them respond positively because of the high probability of no-strings sex while they simultaneously place the woman in the non-wife bucket. The first part is what keeps this all in motion, its the second part is what the women never see coming.

    And this part were the pluralistic ignorance gets reinforced. I mentioned it before if you feed a hamster everytime you have the chance don’t complain when you have an infestation around your house.

    Hahaha! Don’t worry, I have your back!

    :)

    It would seem to me that after an orgasm the vagina stops producing it’s own lubricants and irritation ensues.

    Gang bangers report that arousal keeps them lubricated for a long time. Vagina’s way of self defense is lubrication some are more into protective themselves than others.

    Ana, NO, don’t do it. Think of the baby. It’s not worth it.
    And if you don’t come back, we’ll have to go after you like in “Saving Private Ryan.”

    Heh but the baby will know that his mother is a hero for the cause :)

    I would happily start the date by saying, “I googled you, you’ve done some interesting things!”

    Not sure what the guys here think, but that is a great line!

    It is especially annoying to learn that virtually all of these women eventually confess to having had bad sex and bad emotional experiences while they were enthusiastically defending (and proselytizing) casual sex.

    I think they assumed that the next guy will do it and there was something wrong with them. Also the ones that enjoy it never say “Oh I enjoy it but you might not, don’t sweat it” they elevate their status and make the other ones feel less feminist and empowered is a vicious cycle.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “It is especially annoying to learn that virtually all of these women eventually confess to having had bad sex and bad emotional experiences while they were enthusiastically defending (and proselytizing) casual sex.”

    It’s almost as though casual sex is somehow related to bad emotional experiences.

    But that simply doesn’t make any sense.

    Maybe they are simply misremembering their adventures or are confused due to some form of early onset emotional maturity.

  • Jason773

    Susan,

    That’s fair – I wasn’t speaking of never married women. I will say that several of my classmates at Wharton got to 30 w/o marrying – they were smart and high-achieving – not particularly masculine, though. Not sure if you consider that “something wrong with them.” A female Managing Director at an IB who is single is going up against very long odds. Too heavy a hitter.

    I’m guessing they would fall into the ‘not looking for commitment’ category due to their career priorities, and my statement would still stand. Unlike some in the manosphere, I have no problem with high achieving women in the workplace who are career focused. I wouldn’t think something is wrong with them if that is the case. The problem, which has been alluded to many times on here, is that these same women hit 35 and look even older due to long hours at work, and there are no remotely decent guys in sight for them. As seen, these kinds of gals will bitch and moan, when in reality they had their chances 10 years before.

    If a woman really just wants to focus on her career and forgo men, children and family life, then more power to her, but so many try to shift the goalposts when they are past their sell date.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jason

      If a woman really just wants to focus on her career and forgo men, children and family life, then more power to her, but so many try to shift the goalposts when they are past their sell date.

      It’s tragic that these women whose career strategy is faultless have assigned no priority to their personal lives. Sure enough, when you don’t plan, you’re at the mercy of chance, and that rarely works out, at least not optimally.

  • VD

    “Whnever I hear a guy claim to be literally able to “go all night,” I know I’ve found a liar–which is highly unattractive to me.”

    Untrue. But understand that “go all night” does not mean one single session culminating in a final climax. It means the ability to go over and over and over again, regardless of how many climaxes are experienced by either or both parties.

  • Just a thought

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/10/10/tracy_clark_flory_goes_on_a_real_date_reports_back_that_just_like_casual.html

    No, Tracy Clark Flory’s admittance of the ultimate failure of hook up culture is not a condemnation of hook up culture. No, keep going at it sex positive feminists. Susan, it seems that no matter whether you whack them on the head with evidence, people believe what they wish.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just a thought

      No, Tracy Clark Flory’s admittance of the ultimate failure of hook up culture is not a condemnation of hook up culture.

      It’s as if she’s falling into line and spouting the feminist canon. Marcotte must have pulled rank and demanded “clarification.” Too late, we already know that TCF was not getting anything from her hookups. 7 years of shitty non-relationships.

  • Ion

    @Iggles

    “I’ve always felt that I would find casual sex to be empty and it would hurt me emotionally to engage in it, so I simply didn’t.”

    Heh. I was curious to try casual sex (and fantasized about it).

    I thought something was “wrong” with me in my early 20s for getting many offers and not going through with it. Lately I’ve been wondering if it would’ve been better to pick someone just for the experience. Perhaps if I had lost my virginity in high school (I had my first kiss at 21) I would’ve tried casual sex then. I don’t really know. I know though that I would’ve felt guilty about it, so it’s probably for the best.

    Truth is, most men with lots of experience with women who are sniffing around for sex can tell when a woman is shy, and can keep trying, and trying and… It was learning vicariously through promiscuous female friends that helped me not want casual sex, who I always befriended and vice versa, maybe I lived vicariously through them or something.

    They never outright SAID how devastating it was, I agree actually with some of the comments about the hamstering women on the carousel have you only live once, and i just happen to LOVE SEX!. They forgot the times when they first started and were bleeding from rough drunk sex, or when guys took them on dates only to get sex and coupled up with their roommates later, or chlamydia scares (all these things actually happened to friends of mine).

    I thought it was resentment that allowed them to go on like that boasting about how amazing these experiences were without warning the more modest girls, but truth be told, I think promiscuous girls had no malice and wanted to escape guilt “it’s just religious repression!” and sole crushing rejection “men are just assholes!”, more than they were out to sabotage chaste girls. No one wants to believe they are damaged goods at 23.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan..”that in an era when men are shamed for dominant masculine behavior, women are so hungry for it they enthusiastically embrace jerks”

    To coin a phrase:

    “When masculinity is criminalized, only criminals will be masculine”

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy and Susan

    Michelin? I think Sassy is a Good*year* girl.

    But I only in terms of liking it longer, not the two-word motto on their website! http://www.goodyear.com/ :D

  • Abbot

    “people believe what they wish.”

    People dont want to change their behavior and need a belief system to make themselves feel better about it. Clearly, sexual behavior is a HUGE heated topic among feminists. It gets mocked about here. But over there, its a fiery hornets nest…and a shitload of fun to watch

  • HanSolo

    That should be “But only in terms of liking it longer…” no I in there.

  • HanSolo

    Game of Thrones is great. I’m about ready to start watching it all the way through for a second time to get ready for next season.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “This is one of the commonly recommended “slut tells” but it hardly takes a sleuth to uncover this. Bastiat Blogger reports his students assuming this posture as a general rule.”

    As slut tells go, I guess this one goes without saying – except for the fact that there is far too much of this coming from women who think this is what we want to hear. There are the ones who actually have those experiences and feel fine about sharing that in all kinds of ways, but there are a lot of women who are using suggestive and sex-poz language and references that do not actually engage in those behaviors. The former is a tell and instant ripcord, the latter is far more complicated. Particularly when the unsolicited disclosures are not congruent with other views, behaviors, or expressed or apparent values. I’m in the middle of this with a woman right now.

    I’ve encountered that a couple of times and it greatly undermines the the entire encounter(s). Its like the railroad switch, you can’t pull back on that lever while half the train is already down-rail on the slutty/P&D/easy/sex-poz/casual track. That baby is southbound and I’m very unlikely to hop on and take the chance it takes a hard north sometime soon. A lot of guys hop on all right, but they only care to get as far as the tunnel.

    I agree that it is like the fake asshole schtick in men and that
    authenticity is key. But alas, image trumps character in that initial attraction stage and that is a hard truth to work around when it is so easy to see how a little bit of a-hole garners so much more attention than a lot of character. As for women, I honestly can’t say what motivates the projection of the false image in those who don’t actually believe in those behaviors.

    It seems obvious that the attention gained in that case is a much straighter line to P&D than LTR. But admittedly, I’ve never been caught up in the sexual banter, the male-female sexual-attraction proving ground discussions. Call me old fashioned. So I guess any response to that tack, particularly the escalation from men, is what counts and that stuff is the path of least resistance at least at first (?) to securing interest. The whole casual vs relationship, P&D risk, and LTR prospects get sorted out later? Well FWIW, it doesn’t “work” with me. Even if I was interested in casual, knowing that our experience will be aired in the next episode turns me off.

    @Ana
    “I mentioned it before if you feed a hamster everytime you have the chance don’t complain when you have an infestation around your house.”

    So is he feeding her hamster, is she feeding her own hamster, or is the hamster a euphemism for something else? And who is complaining? I’m feeling a little thick tonight.

    This just in…..”Gang bangers report…” cracked me up.

  • HanSolo

    @Ion

    I got my first real kiss at 21 too, to a girl who was also a labial virgin.

    We were awkward and laughed that we didn’t know what we were doing but we enjoyed it.

  • Desiderius

    “This is one of the commonly recommended “slut tells” but it hardly takes a sleuth to uncover this. Bastiat Blogger reports his students assuming this posture as a general rule.”

    Ironically it may now be a non-slut tell, as accomplished sluts have spent enough time with men to know that sort of talk turns us off when relationship time comes.

  • Ramble

    If you don’t think men hit the wall, with their saggy tummies and flat asses, gray chest hair, bushy eyebrows and ears, then you’re not being realistic.

    Last night I saw a rerun of Rules of Engagement. The main character (Patrick Warburton) said that he wanted to dies at 71.

    Friend: Why 71?
    PW: Let’s just say that I saw a 72 year old guy naked at the gym locker and, well, let’s just say that gravity won.

  • Plain Jane

    “Isn’t manzboobs or what’s his name single? But does he produce sperm at all?”

    I was attracted to his witty writing, then I saw a pic. Too bad he’s not hot. I would definitely pop him a flirty pm.

  • Plain Jane

    “Hmmm, disagree. 10 years up for a woman is Cougar land. 10 years up for a man is not Silver Fox land. Double standard, too bad.”

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
    :)
    A 10 year age difference is not a big deal once you’re past your mid 20s. Same generation.

  • Desiderius

    “Not only that, she didn’t even really get validation. She was screwing guys with tattoos that said, “forgive me.” She chose guys who dumped her before they pumped her. Where’s the validation in that?”

    She’s following her purest animal instincts – the sexiest sons of all never stick around after. Maximum seed spreadage/polygamy at one remove. Now that it’s understood I’m not talking about all women, is that take more explanatory?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She’s following her purest animal instincts – the sexiest sons of all never stick around after.

      I’m not convinced she sexed up sexy sons. I think there were some loser impostors in there.

  • Desiderius

    “It’s tragic that these women whose career strategy is faultless have assigned no priority to their personal lives. Sure enough, when you don’t plan, you’re at the mercy of chance, and that rarely works out, at least not optimally.”

    No priority? Is that accurate? What do you think about my suggestion of relative insecurity, perhaps also leading to a false bravado that’s off-putting especially to men due to gender differences in attractors?

    The easy translation of professional status to marital status is becoming less of a sure thing for men. It’s never been a sure thing for women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      No priority? Is that accurate? What do you think about my suggestion of relative insecurity, perhaps also leading to a false bravado that’s off-putting especially to men due to gender differences in attractors?

      Yes, I think you’ve got this right. It is a priority, but the personal doesn’t get the same objective analysis as the professional strategy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      What do you think about my suggestion of relative insecurity, perhaps also leading to a false bravado that’s off-putting especially to men due to gender differences in attractors?

      Makes sense, especially as women reach their late 20s. They haven’t felt successful so far, 30 is closing in, false bravado is probably the go-to strategy for many. Hell, you’d need it just to deal with family pressure at the holidays. I can totally imagine having done that myself if things had gone differently.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan, “It’s tragic that these women whose career strategy is faultless have assigned no priority to their personal lives. Sure enough, when you don’t plan, you’re at the mercy of chance, and that rarely works out, at least not optimally.”

    That’s because our culture approaches love and marriage as something mystical that is just supposed to “happen”. That’s why we use words like, “fall in love”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s because our culture approaches love and marriage as something mystical that is just supposed to “happen”. That’s why we use words like, “fall in love”.

      Exactly right. I’ve been criticized for viewing the SMP in terms of cold and heartless sexual economics, but it’s really just about understanding one’s environment and formulating a strategy that maximizes your opportunities. That’s why I appreciate Game so much.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “It’s tragic that these women whose career strategy is faultless have assigned no priority to their personal lives. Sure enough, when you don’t plan, you’re at the mercy of chance, and that rarely works out, at least not optimally.”

    I was thinking about this and I came up with a workable theory that can in no way be tested so we must therefore assume correctness based entirely on validity.

    Anyways,

    Its possible its a defence mechanism against a threat that doesn’t really exist.

    For example, one of the biggest problems for a guy with approach anxiety is excuses.

    She might have a boyfriend, I don’t want to interrupt, I’ll do it tomorrow.

    All are excuses made by the grey stuff to avoid rejection. In men, rejection occurs at the approach stage (mostly).

    For women rejection occurs at the relationship formation stage.

    Perhaps the, I’m to busy for a boyfriend/need to focus on my career brigade is simply finding a way to avoid rejection in the same way most men do.

    We do have a society with such a high promotion of risk aversion to relationships that it seems reasonable that women would also be avoiding the risk of relationship formation (as are men).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We do have a society with such a high promotion of risk aversion to relationships that it seems reasonable that women would also be avoiding the risk of relationship formation (as are men).

      Yes! And again, I am seeing the need for a post on authenticity!

  • Plain Jane

    Lokland might be onto something with that theory.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I wish I knew about this “longer is not always better” WRT PIV sex about a year ago.

    Would have saved a very…unfortunate night.

  • Sai

    “aren’t you concerned that you might wind up on the front page of a newspaper as the woman who disappeared, got knifed in an alley, tossed out of a window, got murdered in her apartment, etc.?”
    THANK YOU! This has been one of my biggest problems with ONSs. You don’t know who you’re going home/to a motel with.

    “It is especially annoying to learn that virtually all of these women eventually confess to having had bad sex and bad emotional experiences while they were enthusiastically defending (and proselytizing) casual sex.”
    If nothing else it’s false advertising. :(

    @Anacaona
    Aw shucks, thank you. (Occasionally people have told me I looked ok but I had trouble believing them and thought they were just being nice…) Is there anything that needs major physical work?

    Also RIP recess.

  • Plain Jane

    “It is especially annoying to learn that virtually all of these women eventually confess to having had bad sex and bad emotional experiences while they were enthusiastically defending (and proselytizing) casual sex.”
    If nothing else it’s false advertising. :(
    —–

    Yeah but the thing is, if anything is a numbers game, its one-night-stands. A lot of misses for a few hits.

  • Desiderius

    Su,

    “I’m not convinced she sexed up sexy sons. I think there were some loser impostors in there.”

    All sexy sons (in the primordial sense) are now losers by the standards of that time. Spreading one’s seed is no longer the done thing.

    It’s called civilization.

    I can’t recommend this book enough – it’s by a smart-assed Catholic pathologist who didn’t start writing until he was 39 and won the National Book Award with his first novel.

    He absolutely nails what is ailing TCF and her tribe . What is most remarkable is that he did it 40 years ago.

  • Desiderius

    It’s called, half tongue-in-cheek, angelism/beastialism in the book.

  • tsimmons

    But as I’ve gotten older—how I hate that phrase—I’ve wanted a broader spectrum of romantic scripts.

    Your point was really satisfying, which is that what we really need is the ability to diversify: hook up if we want, go slow if we want, just do a bunch of different stuff depending on where we’re at. I think that sort of thing causes a lot of men anxiety, though.

    Any time you hear code word language like this, run.

    “I want a broader spectrum of romantic scripts” = “I have decided to settle, and you look pretty gullible, so take me out on a date!”

    “Go slow if we want” – gah, do women actually think men take this as a compliment? “Well, you know, usually I just immediately sleep with guys I meet at the bar. But you’re special, so with you I want to go slow.” Wow, what an utterly charming reward.

    I also like how Amanda says that the men who have a problem with this have “anxiety”. Because anxiety, of course, is for the neurotic and the weak. This is some solid salesmanship, here. Because if you want to prove you aren’t “anxious”, neurotic, and weak, you have to demonstrate that you can overcome your natural reluctance to be a female player’s Epcot Center Experience of traditional courtship.

  • Desiderius

    “In the Amanda Marcotte interview, TCF reveals that she has now been on five dates in one week with Mr. Right. I don’t have a good feeling about this – way in way soon is a major red flag, as we all know. She’s going to kick his beta ass to the curb any day now. What will the next installment in the saga be?”

    Well, either all the “experience” she gained in riding the carousel is a total farce (c’mon, I knew to avoid “too much, too fast” by junior year in HS!) or she’s sought out a guy who doesn’t know better for a reason. Female supremacist looking for a guy she can dominate. Nothing new there.

  • Desiderius

    tsimmons,

    “if you want to prove”

    you’ve already lost hand.

    Bad frame.

  • Desiderius

    Lokland,

    I think you’re dead on – fits hand in glove with what I’m saying. And the flaking/busyness then gets misread as lack of interest (general or specific).

    When I was flaking, it wasn’t lack of interest or lower prioritization, it was an unrealistic self-image and the avoidance of possible failure of any kind required to preserve it.

  • Desiderius

    Ion,

    Great post at #234.

    “I think promiscuous girls had no malice and wanted to escape guilt “it’s just religious repression!” and sole crushing rejection “men are just assholes!”, more than they were out to sabotage chaste girls.”

    Malus toward religion and men is still malus and does its own damage. They count too.

  • Esau

    Abbot (perhaps rhetorically): When did this “sex positivism” start? Who invented the term? Seems like a new label for the same old thing. What is an example of sex negativism?

    Since you asked, it was some time after the Ford administration.

    Sarah can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ll take a shot here at history:

    Linguists will tell you that everything evokes its opposite. Newly deploying a phrase like “compassionate conservatism” implies that there must have been a preceding kind of conservatism that was un-compassionate; and, just so, “sex-positive feminism” was meant, overtly, to distinguish its proponents from a prior, sex-negative species of same.

    So, who were the sex-negatives? Set the way-back machine to 1977. Feminism is in the ascendant culturally (and for good reasons IMO), but doesn’t sit entirely well with everyone. One of the aspects found disagreeable (or as part of a backlash, if you prefer) is that the feminist canon of thought seems so dreary, so sour*, so fun-less, and so, well, un-sexy. They’re down on porn, they’re down on makeup and tight clothes, they’re down on traditional gender roles, there’s a lot of “all men are rapists” diffusing through their atmospheres, and they’re suspected of being largely lesbians.**

    [* An oft-posted contemporary cartoon had the caption, "This is a feminist bookstore, there is no humor section".

    ** True story: I did once meet a young woman who went to NOW meetings in the 1990's, and she told me that NOW was then well-known as a lesbian hangout and pick-up venue -- as she was one herself, I suppose she would know.]

    As the 1980’s pick up speed, intellectual young women want to be on the right side of history and so sign up for “Women’s Studies,” where the Evil Patriarchy is dissected before their eyes and then hung out to cure slowly in the sun. They groove to the beat of female supremacy, but also worry about the accompanying unpleasant odor: “feminist” is starting to imply “man-hating, sex-hating and/or lesbian” out in the world, and who wants to be seen that way? Hardly gonna help her get a date! outside of perhaps a tiny number of male acolytes, who ultimately prove unsatisfying.

    So what’s a young, intellectual woman to do, when she both wants to hold onto the cultural power of female ascendancy, and also have a good time and not repel possible suitors? Just cram the two together! Announce that you are subscribed to a new, explicitly sex-positive feminism, that you’re different from — really, trust me, not at all like — the older, dowdy, no-fun, crypto-lesbian man-haters. The original term, that I _think_ surfaced in about 1991, was — you’ll love this — something called “do-me feminism”; but I think “sex-positive feminism” was later deemed more sufficiently dignified.

    This, then, was the new branding, the new-cut facet on the jewel: “Yes, we’re feminists, but we’re not anti-sex; really, we love sex! For more information, inquire within.” And, really, I don’t mean to be at all snarky here. Feminists, like other human beings, should be able to love sex; nothing wrong, but rather a great deal right with that. Certainly it was a shame that they felt forced to point it out explicitly. Or, should that have been seen as a red flag all along?

    Sex-positivity had a lot of appeal, for obvious reasons. It allowed young women to enjoy sex without feeling that they were necessarily surrendering to the Evil Patriarchy in doing so. The key was that the woman should be in charge, she should call the shots, without control or restraint by anything with a taint of patriarchy; remember, feminists reflexively interpret (and not without justification, IMO) sexual control as the leading edge of oppression. So extreme self-indulgence was not a bug, but a feature — really, almost an obligation — of the new sex-positive strand of feminism. To be reliably and overtly autonomous, the woman had to put her own needs and desires first, to “explore her sexuality” purely from her own motivations (which are, naturally, selfish and untutored at that age, just as they are for men).

    This explains quite naturally, for example, why self-described feminists who harsh on HUS focus on “shut-shaming” as their quick-draw, go-to accusation against Susan. To them it is self-evident that (i) sexual shaming is a form of control, that (ii) all sexual control is a tool of sexist oppression, and (iii) oppression is an evil that taints any path leading toward it.

    So, what happened, that we arrive at the sad tale of TCF? I don’t think sex-positivity in itself is a bad idea — aren’t Susan and nearly everyone who writes here positive about sex? And I don’t even necessarily think that extreme self-indulgence is fatal, even if it may be sub-optimal; I tried a few rounds of it myself, though with markedly less “success” than TCF or Chelsea Handler. No, where I think “sex-positive feminism” truly went wrong for women is that, as both preached and practiced it never resolved the basic contradiction, between men being a source of fun but at the same time ultimately at fault for all the ills of the world.

    The sex-positive feminist is permanently self-infantalized: because her own desires must be her sole lodestone, she will always, ultimately, blame disappointments and bad outcomes entirely on men, on men’s shortcomings; and so she can never recognize and correct her own faults, and never grow up or mature. Look how many years it took TCF to recognize that she herself was in any way to blame for disappointments in her love life. The sad result, is that men become simply tools and servants in her task of self-exploration: “make me pleased, make me happy, try this and see if it makes me feel good.” Many may be glad to go along for the (short) ride! But because feminism still, at its roots, sees men in the main as lesser, fallen, reprobate beings, the sex-positive stream that flows from it cannot value men for their own good natures.

    The result — and, my, but this has been a long answer to a short question — is as I put it above: “sex, positive for me but not for thee.” Feminist sex-positivity begets the worst of the hookup culture, where a few, shiny and attractive men are useful as human sex toys, and the rest are less worthy than dogs. The deep-down reason it doesn’t work, and the reason that the writing/thinking of sex-positive feminists is so self-evidently confused and incoherent, is that it all rests on the flawed foundation of a giant, unresolved contradiction.

    Anyway, that’s my take.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      That’s an interesting and no doubt accurate portrayal of what young women were thinking and feeling as they tried to distance themselves from hairy-legged feminists:

      hl

      But there was also a huge battle within feminism that originated with the anti-porn gang. Many feminists embraced porn, including as a powerful means of self-expression for porn actresses. Eventually this led to raunch culture, including Girls Gone Wild, and epitomized by the NYC nightclub Cake:

      “In September of 2000, CAKE hosted the first of what would become the infamous CAKE parties at club FUN, under the Manhattan Bridge. Billed as a Porn Party, the hosts showed clips of explicit videos edited together and displayed on floor to ceiling screens. The guests enthusiasm was captured in an online survey conducted some days after.

      Shortly after the first event, CAKE was featured on the cover of The New York Post for their Striptease.a.thon party, held at the Spa. It is rumored that The New Yorker was to publish an around town column on the club before the Post’s cover story appeared. Controversy was sparked and the parties continued at the rate of about one every month, each time at a different venue.”

      cn

      The raunchy feminists won, and those anti-porn party poopers were shunned. This led to sex-positive feminism, which is a key part of the movement’s identity today. This is an excellent book on the topic:

      fcp

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    “I mentioned it before if you feed a hamster everytime you have the chance don’t complain when you have an infestation around your house.”
    So is he feeding her hamster, is she feeding her own hamster, or is the hamster a euphemism for something else? And who is complaining? I’m feeling a little thick tonight.

    Sleeping with sluts just confirm their stupid ideas and make them feel like sex goddesses that in turn make the less slutty girls feel invisible and ugly. Many of them don’t learn how to compete because they don’t want to offer sex upfront that makes the disconnect worst , but then many of them decide that slutting up is the way to go so between the minorty of sluts and the Beta females most of them are ruined by the experience and when years pass the same men sleeping with sluts complain there are no good girls for marriage, because most of them slept with them in pathological levels and the other ones are retired were burned by cads and assume all men are bad or are just plain invisible. Is a vicious cycle.

    This just in…..”Gang bangers report…” cracked me up.

    Glad to make you smile :)

    No, Tracy Clark Flory’s admittance of the ultimate failure of hook up culture is not a condemnation of hook up culture.

    Oh boy see what I mean this “This was a crappy idea!…Oh my! The sisters are onto me! I take it back I take it back!” is HUGE part of the problem.
    I sure hope this confessional pieces get spread on the nets before the Feminazi’s start their “Trotsky?! Who is that guy?” operation so we have a more people, specially young women, to find them.

    Aw shucks, thank you. (Occasionally people have told me I looked ok but I had trouble believing them and thought they were just being nice…) Is there anything that needs major physical work?

    I’m actually gathering some info. I found out that the easiest technique to help improve beginners looks is to find your celebrity match. Stars spent a lot of money on stylists to make them look their best at all times so if you find a match you can use the internet to get pics get similar styles, make up, hairstyles and so on at your own budget and the change is easier to assimilate. You can also test clothes on them and reject styles that are not suitable to you and is easier now with all the diversity around Hollywood. But for that I will need a full body pic, of you to see your body type…I hope the fight with the PC is less bloody this time. :)

  • Kirk

    “I’m not convinced she sexed up sexy sons. I think there were some loser impostors in there.”

    @Susan

    What makes you think this? TCF is a major sex pozzie. When you can have it all, why would you settle for anything but the best?

    In other news, I landed a date (FINALLY!) with a cute latina chick last Friday. The night went swell and it culminated in a brief make out session. We now have plans to go dancing. Wish me luck.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kirk

      What makes you think this? TCF is a major sex pozzie. When you can have it all, why would you settle for anything but the best?

      I guess it gets down to how you define “best.” She describes guys who acknowledged they’re losers, don’t have their shit together, etc. They certainly don’t have high status. I suppose they might be “bad boys” but I feel the distinction between bad boys and unsexy slackers is getting awfully blurred.

      In other news, I landed a date (FINALLY!) with a cute latina chick last Friday. The night went swell and it culminated in a brief make out session. We now have plans to go dancing. Wish me luck.

      That is fantastic news! I’m sending good vibes your way, please keep us posted!

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Susan Walsh,

    Regarding your comments on research:

    I have half a mind to go into the business of conducting studies. So many great ideas, questions we need answers to, and no one appears to give a damn. Too bad I have no credibility.

    There are indeed a large number of credible social scientists who are “clueless” about these real gender dynamics. But, there are others who are informed and care. The reason why there are no studies is not because “no one gives a damn”, but rather, because of academic politics and the ideologies that control them.

    Peer-reviewed, professional journals would most likely not publish such work. Grant money would not be awarded for them. Even if publication did occur, it would be academic professional suicide. For example, just look at the academic career of Warren Farrell after he gave up the feminist agenda – his successful academic career was buried. He went from being begged by dozens of major universities when he was a feminist, to not being able to get an academic job.

    The closest academic professionals come to discussing such issues are the evolutionary psychologists. Even they are under constant attack and censure. Historically, they even had to start their own journals, because others often refused to publish their findings. Even “careful” evolutionary work is hard to get published and held to higher scrutiny than other topics – controversial work is almost impossible.

    So, the most likely successful approach is to do the research yourself – and publish it yourself too. Of course, then it lacks the credibility and is easily dismissed. Even with my degrees (and I’m an experienced statistician too), the results would be easy to dismiss as “unscientific” without academic oversight, or at least peer-review publication.

    Nevertheless, once I finish my book, if I can generate enough revenue to keep me free of academics, I might just go in that rogue research direction myself. Who knows…maybe some third-tier journal will slip it in. At the least, it can be blogged about.

    Let’s keep this discussion open Susan. I would enjoy your input. The mechanics of actually designing and running research are not a problem on this end. So, once my business/finances are a bit more set, perhaps we’ll have some fun with research :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dr. Jeremy

      I really appreciate your insight into the academic research world. I have suspected as much, but really have no idea how these politics work. I have seen how feminists shame some researchers – Christina Hoff Sommers comes to mind – and promote others without justification – Carol Gilligan comes to mind.

      The closest academic professionals come to discussing such issues are the evolutionary psychologists. Even they are under constant attack and censure. Historically, they even had to start their own journals, because others often refused to publish their findings. Even “careful” evolutionary work is hard to get published and held to higher scrutiny than other topics – controversial work is almost impossible.

      This is the research I enjoy the most, and I had no idea they have to fight so hard to get it done. When I write posts about these studies, it’s typical for a commenter to discredit the study by saying the researchers are just liberal feminists. Obviously, that is absolutely not the case here, as may be evidenced by the many snarky comments feminists make about evolutionary psychology and biology.

      Tracy Clark Flory is actually more open minded than most. She’s interviewed Mark Regnerus and Ogi Ogas, IIRC.

      Nevertheless, once I finish my book, if I can generate enough revenue to keep me free of academics, I might just go in that rogue research direction myself. Who knows…maybe some third-tier journal will slip it in. At the least, it can be blogged about.

      Let’s keep this discussion open Susan. I would enjoy your input. The mechanics of actually designing and running research are not a problem on this end. So, once my business/finances are a bit more set, perhaps we’ll have some fun with research

      That sounds awesome! Based on your writings I feel certain you would tackle some very interesting topics! Best of luck with the book, keep us posted.

  • Orlando

    J, I’m going to throw my owns thoughts on that, and I know many guys have encountered the same. My father’s an aristocrat and a very high-Powered business man. I’ve interacted quite a a bunch with men who were well-off to extremely rich. Most of the time it was drugs, alcohol and high level prostitutes. From sports icons to the family man with cash, most of these guys live debcharous lives, and the very wealthy keep a wife or remarry in order to maintain a facade of integrity. Do you believe that the Beatles fella who each time divorces loses hundreds of millions would marry or date had this society’s hand less of an impact on these guys popularity?

  • Orlando

    Anaconda, beta girls are only invisible to the brad Pitt in a leather jacket. Most average looking beta fellas don’t need glasses to see that the girl is charming, but beta girls only lower their fishing net when they are in their 30’s and the betas lose interest in being the back-up. Beta girls only have themselves to blame for spending their teens, 20’s, and now 30’s withou boyfriends, husbands and babies.

  • VD

    So, the most likely successful approach is to do the research yourself – and publish it yourself too. Of course, then it lacks the credibility and is easily dismissed. Even with my degrees (and I’m an experienced statistician too), the results would be easy to dismiss as “unscientific” without academic oversight, or at least peer-review publication.

    The scare quotes are entirely correct. There is absolutely nothing scientific about academic oversight, much less the peer-review, which is nothing but a fancy term for what is otherwise known as “editing”. I find it tremendously amusing that some of my “unscientific” hypotheses have now magically been converted into science by virtue of different academics publishing papers in which the hypotheses were tested and statistically supported.

  • Ion

    @ Hansolo

    “We were awkward and laughed that we didn’t know what we were doing but we enjoyed it.”

    Ahh, nice! For me it was a professor I was dating so he was much more experienced than I (I honestly think intellect is my alpha, it certainly was back then). I wasn’t really attracted to him in retrospect.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Anaconda, beta girls are only invisible to the brad Pitt in a leather jacket. Most average looking beta fellas don’t need glasses to see that the girl is charming, but beta girls only lower their fishing net when they are in their 30′s and the betas lose interest in being the back-up. Beta girls only have themselves to blame for spending their teens, 20′s, and now 30′s withou boyfriends, husbands and babies.

    You need to read more here, we have studies and anecdotes and it seems like, plenty of Beta females want Beta males we have a HUGE disconnect among them because most Betas only pay attention to the “charming” girls too and many of the girls also think they are better off opting out completely. There is need for a lot of work to be done to bring the gap and let the shiny ones to stop disrupting gender relationships.

  • Ion

    Desiderius

    “Malus toward religion and men is still malus and does its own damage. They count too.”

    True. Currently its set up that a lot of chaste girls look up to the promiscuous girls because they are popular. Popular has merit.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    True. Currently its set up that a lot of chaste girls look up to the promiscuous girls because they are popular. Popular has merit.

    I don’t watch Glee anymore, but I liked the beginning when they say something very interesting. “Not being famous, is worst than being poor” nowadays being popular is higher in the priority list than ever in history. So anyone that seems to achieve it looks like a hero/heroine. Part of the Facebook nation, YMMV

  • http://chromedcurses.com LL

    My guess is she’ll masturbate thinking of the scene in the bar, not the bedroom.

    Susan, that is exactly right. She most likely fantasizes about the anticipation, the hope of “being chosen,” that moment of triumph when she was, not so much the sex they had afterwards. That is where her desires lie, in being selected out of all the other women, as The One who was most desirable.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LL

      Welcome, first time commenter if I am not mistaken?

      You’ve nailed it – the anticipation and reward have nothing to do with sex. Is it surprising the sex didn’t “pay off?”

  • Doug

    A 9.8? She cleaned up well, but she’s a 6 at best. If she lost 10-15 pounds maybe a 7.5 for a 30 plus woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doug

      A 9.8? She cleaned up well, but she’s a 6 at best. If she lost 10-15 pounds maybe a 7.5 for a 30 plus woman.

      No, I said a 9. Or an 8 at least.

      You think she’s a 6? Her husband’s SMV is obviously very high, I guess he disagrees. Why do you think she needs to lose weight – her face looks quite thin to me.

      You guys online sure can be picky.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Definitely! I’ve seen this among some women friends. One friend of mine was so good at this that I asked her whether she might be gay. She was a bit offended and said no emphatically. I haven’t seen her in any kind of relationship in the last 25 years.

    I had been thinking that some women with a high EQ can hamsterize living vicariously in some other women’s shoes (sisters, friends…) so they can keep it to themselves and avoid rejection while getting some sense of the things they wanted, one of the downhill if being high EQ is that negative feelings hurt a whole lot my guess more than in normal and lower EQ people so hamsterizing is less painful than rejection. Noticing a trend of pampering nephews, friend’s kids, being over excited about being the maid of honor or organizing others’s people’s weddings in ways that look too involved emotionally for someone who is not the direct participant…just thinking out loud.

  • Orlando

    Anaconda, plenty of beta girls want beta guys only when they’re in their 30’s and remember that i’m talking about average looking betas: being wanted by a 30-something woman is no flattery to the average 30-something beta because he was invisible for the same woman for 15 years. Unless the woman is a complete knock-out the guy knows she probably interested in what he can do for her $ wise, and how do I know this? Dozens upon dozens of guys in their 30’s and 40’s, and by looking right now across the classroom I see groups of 20 girls a piece surrounding an alpha male per group, and the betas are talking about vampire the masqurerade redemption: do not pay attention to what women(the vast majority of them) say, pay attention to what they do.

  • Orlando

    Unless the girl in her 30’s is a complete knock-out the guy knows she’s only interested in $ but at least he’ll get hot sex from a hot woman.

  • Orlando

    Susan, how are those guys “slackers”? Would you work a job in exchange for nothing? Those “unsexy” guys are actually winning the game of life: a lifetime of the good life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan, how are those guys “slackers”? Would you work a job in exchange for nothing? Those “unsexy” guys are actually winning the game of life: a lifetime of the good life.

      That is their choice and their right, but I don’t have to admire or respect them. I disrespect Unproductive Members of Society.

  • Desiderius

    “the distinction between bad boys and unsexy slackers is getting awfully blurred”

    Yeah, I think you’re right. I do see some very together-Click Here for HTMLGoodies professional women with very omegaish men.

  • Desiderius

    Heh – should read “together-looking.”

    And they do have a good bit of their shit together, but nobody’s perfect and I suspect trying to be has something to do with the way-less-than-marriage-material sex partners.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Anaconda, plenty of beta girls want beta guys only when they’re in their 30′s and remember that i’m talking about average looking betas: being wanted by a 30-something woman is no flattery to the average 30-something beta because he was invisible for the same woman for 15 years.

    You are buying into the pluralistic ignorance the women here are less than 30 in majority.

    Unless the woman is a complete knock-out the guy knows she probably interested in what he can do for her $ wise, and how do I know this? Dozens upon dozens of guys in their 30′s and 40′s, and by looking right now across the classroom I see groups of 20 girls a piece surrounding an alpha male per group, and the betas are talking about vampire the masqurerade redemption: do not pay attention to what women(the vast majority of them) say, pay attention to what they do.

    We do. 80% of the girls in college are no banging Alphas in a regular basis and many of them are still virgin, what more actions you need than that? If you are paying attention to the women Alpha’s are getting you are looking at the wrong direction. Take a look at the ones not on their vicinity the ones that, are minding their own business or just don’t bother, you might be surprised.

  • Desiderius

    “This is the research I enjoy the most, and I had no idea they have to fight so hard to get it done.”

    This is what we’ve been trying to tell you.

    “When I write posts about these studies, it’s typical for a commenter to discredit the study by saying the researchers are just liberal feminists.”

    No, you’ve been misreading us. We’ve been saying the radfems intimidate the research agenda to such an extent that a degree of skepticism is warranted, especially when the findings contradict the Peter Lynch principle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      We’ve been saying the radfems intimidate the research agenda to such an extent that a degree of skepticism is warranted,

      And I’m saying that doesn’t apply to the Evo Psych studies.

  • Jason773

    Anacaona,

    You need to read more here, we have studies and anecdotes and it seems like, plenty of Beta females want Beta males we have a HUGE disconnect among them because most Betas only pay attention to the “charming” girls too and many of the girls also think they are better off opting out completely. There is need for a lot of work to be done to bring the gap and let the shiny ones to stop disrupting gender relationships.

    I’m going to have to disagree with you on this, but hear me out…

    For the sake of debate, let’s say that we are at least talking about girls who would at least be defined as ‘cute’, and thus not overweight and nothing majorly offputting. From what I’ve seen, a lot of the beta girls still want the more alpha guys and try to hold out for them, and the girls you are defining as ‘beta’ would really be classified as lower beta or omega in SMP. The girls who actually want the beta guys tend to be naturally shy, introverted and somewhat sheltered. These are the girls who don’t go out very much, if ever, and are not overly social (but remember, this has nothing to do with their looks).

    I classify things like this because IME there are still plenty of ‘beta’ girls out at bars every single weekend, generally following the lead of the one or two alpha hens in their group, but these girls still only give serious looks to the top 20% of males. I see it all the time with obvious beta girls who constantly reject beta guys in their league for the smallest of reasons.

    In the cute or pretty girl population, I would say that 20% are alpha, 60% are beta and 20% are the omega; a normalized bell curve. So we still have 80% of the pretty girls generally looking to the top 20% of males, while the middle 60% of males would love to find one of those 20% omega females, but there is a major disconnect there is limited interactions with these girls and they are taken off the market really fast.

  • pvw

    @ Esau, “So what’s a young, intellectual woman to do, when she both wants to hold onto the cultural power of female ascendancy, and also have a good time and not repel possible suitors? Just cram the two together! Announce that you are subscribed to a new, explicitly sex-positive feminism, that you’re different from — really, trust me, not at all like — the older, dowdy, no-fun, crypto-lesbian man-haters.”

    I think you are spot on with the historical aspects. Important to note, Naomi Wolf (born early 1960s) she wrote Fire with Fire (1994), as an early thinker that contributed to the third wave and who set forth some the tenets of what would eventually become sex positive feminism.

    @ Susan:

    “They haven’t felt successful so far, 30 is closing in, false bravado is probably the go-to strategy for many. Hell, you’d need it just to deal with family pressure at the holidays.”

    It need not even be false bravado. They might have been very successful, ie., in just the way their parents and elders wanted them to be, but the other stuff didn’t happen in the way everyone just imagined, that ” it would happen, just like that,” especially when their elders got married at a time when it was much easier. An interesting quandary the elders set up, encouraging younger women to be extraordinarily successful in the public sphere (school and work), when the private sphere (marriage and family) was not encouraged as much). What did they expect would happen?

    @Anacona and Sai,

    I found out that the easiest technique to help improve beginners looks is to find your celebrity match.

    Me: You might also look at clothes catalogues that offer the types of clothes that might interest you. We get all kinds sent to our house, and I particularly like the ones where they include pictures of models who resemble me in some fashion, ie., complexion, because that gives me a sense of what the outfit might look like on me, and especially since certain colors look good on women of color –it is one way to stand out–not many women might wear certain types of colors well.

    Off the top of my head, I just thought of metrostyle: http://www.metrostyle.com/

    They are really great at showing pictures of women of color with various complexions and hair styles, ie., to see what colors and hairs styles might look well on you:

    http://www.metrostyle.com/category.asp?CategoryId=500605&title=&page=ALL

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    For the sake of debate, let’s say that we are at least talking about girls who would at least be defined as ‘cute’, and thus not overweight and nothing majorly offputting.

    I think that is another part of the disconnect if looks is the first thing that matter then we are bound to have a lot of willing girls interested on Betas that they will consider offputting… Beta men are supposedly offputting too (not to me I’m just talking about things like supplication that seems to be reported as a major panty dryer) so shouldn’t offputting people be able to meet each other and pair up?

  • Orlando

    But susan, society in itself is feminist and cares for men as tools of profit and only as far as they work for women’s benefits. I’d rather have a short life that a long life working for the collective good of women, and there’s lots of slackers from both sexes. Yesterday I spent 2 hours next to a group of girls whose Idea of group work is to preen their hair, or sigh boringly while checking their iPhones and admiring their freshly polished nails, and this I see everyday of the week.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Orlando

      But susan, society in itself is feminist and cares for men as tools of profit and only as far as they work for women’s benefits.

      I don’t believe that is true, though it’s a popular sentiment in some circles.

  • Orlando

    I’m not that sure on why beta girls wanting average looking beta guys. I was waiting for my teacher to arrive and observing this one girl, thin and short, pleasant face, but no breasts and no butt, and the beta guys around were running some pretty tight game – she’d give a close-mouthed smile and seemed uncomfortable, but when a trio of jocks showed up she instantly left the beta group and it was as if she had found an unicorn, for she was all smiles and giggles with the alphas.

  • Zach

    @Jason

    I’d disagree with you on the distribution of beta/alpha/omega pretty girls. I’d say that far more than a normal distribution of pretty women fall in the alpha category. For women, looks and attention from men often generate self-confidence, which leads to alpha behavior. How many “mean girls” are ugly? Not many.

  • Orlando

    Not sure on shy beta girls wanting to sleep/be in a relationship with average betas.

  • INTJ

    Where was my high-five? A man in a similar situation would be heralded a hero by his friends.

    What an idiot. There’s a lot of pressure on men to have sex, but this isn’t one of those instances. A man who sleeps with a porn star generally would not be high-fived..

  • HanSolo

    @Dr Jeremy, Desiderius and Susan

    Red pills aren’t just for understanding mating…

    Realizing that academic studies and outlooks (especially in the softer areas) are subject to all sorts of biases and logical fallacies and that the people involved are subject to all sorts of tribal politics and self-preservation and aggrandizement is another one.

    Even the choice of what is funded or researched biases the overall understanding of “reality” by only focusing there and often ignoring things that don’t fit the narrative.

  • Orlando

    Anaconda, I don’t pay attention to studies. Studies are usually about what people behind those studies want you to believe in. I’m looking at the girls the alpha have because those are the only guys with girls of any kind. The average-looking betas are lucky to have a conversation with a plain Jane/below average girl without ending up mocked by them, and these guys are either talking perfectly normal subjects with these girls or are using good game/light side game but it won’t work. Virgin white girls in college? I think I saw the last specimen when I was 11 years old.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    He would certainly not be high-fived by the light triad! ;)

    Amongst the meat of the bell curve of men it would probably depend on how hot she was. Mindy Vega (a 9.5 or even 10 in my view) would warrant a high five in my books because most men would never sleep with someone that hot outside of prostitutes.

    You have 2 factors. Bedding a gorgeous woman will warrant high-fives amongst ~70% of men. OTOH, the ewww factor of bedding a porn star for many men will lower the amount of high fiving for more restricted types and the fame factor would probably up it amongst PUA types.

    If my friend told me he’d bedded a gorgeous porn star my honest reaction would be “No way. You stud! lol” And then I’d want the details of how the pick-up went and what she was like. There would be a certain ewww factor maybe but not much…

    Now if she was only a 6 I wouldn’t high five him but would still be curious due to the celebrity factor.

    I’d be curious as to how other guys would react to a friend sharing the news. Would the hotness be more of a factor in whether you high five or would the ewww, she’s had lots of cocks in her keep your arm at your side?

  • HanSolo

    Actually, I wouldn’t say ‘stud’, I’d say “You bastard!” in a high-fiving tone of voice.

  • Desiderius

    Esau at 266, with pvw’s follow-up at 295:

    What oft was thought, but ne’er so well expressed…

    In other news, better day today – sitting under a poster of Chuck Norris next to Ben Franklin and Susan B.

    “oxygen requires Chuck Norris to live”

  • Jason773

    Zach,

    I understand the point your making, and maybe the curve would skew to the right a bit, but I still see plenty of ‘cute’ to ‘pretty’ women who can’t be classified as ‘alpha’ females. When I go out and see a group of girls, there is usually one ‘alpha’ chick with a bunch of other girls who I would consider more beta. Now, they all can be pretty, but they all can’t be alpha. And to be fair, you’re in NYC, where the population of alpha girls is probably higher than any place in the world.

    This lends to the point that the omega girls in this sense are the ones who haven’t quite realized how their looks can hold power, or maybe they simply don’t wish to yield that power.

  • Abbot
  • Ted D

    Susan – then I would say you are far too trusting. Where do you think funding for evo-psych studies comes from? Any chance that source of income might have an agenda?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Where do you think funding for evo-psych studies comes from? Any chance that source of income might have an agenda?

      If it does, it’s an anti-feminism agenda and we need more of that. In any case, agenda or not, the work must stand up to scrutiny. Mark Regnerus is a conservative Christian who has described the SMP very accurately in terms of sexual economics. He takes on feminists head on, and the reason he can is because his research is deemed credible (for the most part).

      It doesn’t matter what drives the hypothesis, as long as the research is sound.

  • Plain Jane

    I’m afraid this will make some people very happy;

    “Today, let me introduce you to a practice known as “slut-dropping.” Apparently it’s all the rage in the UK, and I’m shocked that it hasn’t caught on Stateside, since this sounds right up a lot of jerks’ alleys. Here goes…”

    http://www.xojane.com/issues/slut-dropping-and-other-ways-college-teaches-kids-to-be-sexist-assholes

  • Plain Jane

    ” A man who sleeps with a porn star generally would not be high-fived.”

    Are you kidding?!?! Strippers and porn-wannabe-stars were the primary targets of Mystery’s House of PUA Horrors out in L.A./Hollywood when he and all the other more famous PUAs like Owen Cook and Neil Strauss were holed up together in that house and formulating their “science”.

  • Plain Jane

    “shouldn’t offputting people be able to meet each other and pair up?”

    They are. Go to Walmart.

  • Just1X

    Does anybody else think that modern society would be much improved by more people saying, “I don’t care what you think, because I think that your opinion is stupid and self harming. Like you.”.

    I don’t care what sex-posie women do as long as they allow normal women to disagree – that’s the problem with the multi-penis-positives IMHO. they insist that everybody has to fall into line. If not, if you believe in being selective about your partners, then you’re a ‘primitive man’ or a ‘patriarchy, rape culture, dominated woman’.

    “Just say, FU and your opinions”, it’s the healthy thing to do when dealing with bigotted idiots.

  • Just1X

    @Susan,

    and how did we get to where any hair on a woman that grows below the neck is horrible?

    the thing is, I agree, but why…

    (I was scarred by seeing German women expose their pits…oh the therapy bills!)

  • Todd

    Esau, you’ve nailed it. I think the problem is that while there are some men that do oppress women as a class, and it’s more than a few random losers doing this, it’s also wrong to judge men as a class for the actions of oppressive, abusive men. There is a tendency among many schools of feminism to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and it doesn’t do anyone any good.

    I do have a couple asides about your comment, since I did take a Women’s Studies class. (Hey, I needed the distribution credits for graduation, and it was a decent class IMHO.) One is that the rep of NOW as a lesbian organization has been an open secret for years, to the point that during the height of women’s lib, there were attempts to purge the lesbians. Two is that a lot of what we know think of as social conservatism has roots in the lesbian culture of the 50s. The mindset those women had was that if you wanted to avoid the risks of sleeping with men (e.g. pregnancy, STDs, abusive husbands, etc.), you should just sleep with women instead. It’s a warped way to look at the world, but very real.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    Pic @ Susan 314

    I got serious rugburn just looking at that….yowza

  • Tasmin

    @Jason773@Anacaona
    “I classify things like this because IME there are still plenty of ‘beta’ girls out at bars every single weekend, generally following the lead of the one or two alpha hens in their group, but these girls still only give serious looks to the top 20% of males. I see it all the time with obvious beta girls who constantly reject beta guys in their league for the smallest of reasons.”

    I have no idea re: the distribution of the Alpha/Beta/Omega females, but I will agree with Jason that there is an awful lot of attention/focus coming from the 80% directed at the 20% of males and this has a much greater impact on the 80% of men than women tend to appreciate.

    I also agree that on average the 80% segment aren’t necessarily banging the 20% alpha guys – or even hard chasing, however I do see how active as well as passive attention directed at the 20% from the 80% of women greatly works against the other 80% of men. Regardless of whether or not most of the 80% of those women even desire a man from within the 20% or would or wouldn’t progress to a one-on-one situation, let alone bang, is decreasingly relevant within those competitive environments.

    Whether or not women from within the 80% get to the banging stage with the alpha is effectively irrelevant when viewed from the perspective of the finite resource of her attention. IOW, When considering the actual competitive dynamic of attraction, through approach, and eventual progression to any kind of one-on-one, the end result (sex) is less relevant than the preceding stages. The competitive landscape is driven by the attraction barrier not whether or not those women actually get to (or even want) sex with the alpha.

    That attraction barrier, the gateway of attraction is where the 80% of women can effectively limit, diminish, and outright exclude the 80% of men by directing their own attention toward the 20% of men, by accepting the attention and engaging with the 20% of men, and by filtering their expectations of the 80% through the 20%.

    What I mean by all of that is that from the perspective of the 80% man, the 80% woman can be allocating the finite resource of her attention/time within that 20% segment even if she doesn’t really want to pursue one of them. She can take actions to direct herself toward that 20%, from creating physical proximity to engaging in conversation (active) but can also be (knowingly or unknowingly) employing passive methods like body language, eye contact, and subordinating her preferences to the perceived preference of the group, etc (passive). I believe this is what Jason has noted and what I also see quite often.

    When those active or even passive measures are at work, the 80% of men are being filtered out, often preemptively. In those situations an 80% man can observe those behaviors and quite easily assume things about her motivations and desires that may or may not be true but the affect is the same. Further, if he does chose to take action, his ‘presence’ is often judged relative to that 20% and is then quite easily discounted or even dismissed.

    It is a given that the majority of the 80% women are going to find the 20% men “attractive” and probably more attractive or at least more “interesting/exciting” in those kinds of settings. The 80% man doesn’t need a lot of signals indicating that her radar is either honed in on or more receptive to any kind of alpha for him to dismiss her as potential. I think that affect is massive given the likelihood of a high level of attraction anxiety within the 80% subset of men. And I think most women have no idea how those little choices or unconscious adjustments of their radar are viewed by the men that they very well *may* prefer.

    I would guess that women in those group situations that Jason mentions are even more focused on the 20% based on the same premise that advises men not to approach a woman in a larger group. Whether she acknowledges it or not a woman will consider the opinions of those peers in her decision to engage with a man. And the 20% pool is a much safer pool to draw from in terms of ‘group approval’.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      What I mean by all of that is that from the perspective of the 80% man, the 80% woman can be allocating the finite resource of her attention/time within that 20% segment even if she doesn’t really want to pursue one of them. She can take actions to direct herself toward that 20%, from creating physical proximity to engaging in conversation (active) but can also be (knowingly or unknowingly) employing passive methods like body language, eye contact, and subordinating her preferences to the perceived preference of the group, etc (passive). I believe this is what Jason has noted and what I also see quite often.

      Yes, I agree, and one need only look at the freshmen who eagerly and hopefully attend frat parties when they get to college to see how this plays out. In my view, this is greatly exacerbated by several things:

      A strongly bifurcated social scene in college – the frat & athletes vs. everyone else.

      Massive approach anxiety on the part of the 80% – the lack of this is often what determines the 20%.

      Male status being largely dependent on hookup frequency, which creates a vicious cycle.

      An apex fallacy of sorts among females as well – college guys are much more likely to fantasize over the elusive but hot sorority chick than the females who might respond favorably. IOW, the inverse of this applies to men:

      It is a given that the majority of the 80% women are going to find the 20% men “attractive” and probably more attractive or at least more “interesting/exciting” in those kinds of settings.

  • Plain Jane

    Susan, “My husband’s grandmother conceived his father in a haystack at 17. Fast forward 75 years and she’s admitted to a nursing home. Her filters are GONE. She decides that a 59 year old guy with diabetes is her new boyfriend. He goes to his room one afternoon to find her naked between the sheets. He LJBFs her. That’s the way I want to go out.”

    I’ll assume you’re joking with this.

    And QUESTION:
    If TCF, who is by all accounts just average looking at best, can openly and in much detail describe her very colorful sexcapades and STILL land a husband better looking (even if just slightly) than her………… are the rest of us average gals really supposed to believe that “slutting it up” and even advertising it (!), will be bad for our future “market value”?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PJ

      If TCF, who is by all accounts just average looking at best, can openly and in much detail describe her very colorful sexcapades and STILL land a husband better looking (even if just slightly) than her………… are the rest of us average gals really supposed to believe that “slutting it up” and even advertising it (!), will be bad for our future “market value”?

      I guess we’ll have to see who she gets to commit to her. Certainly, Tracie Egan did fine for herself, and she was far sluttier in her demeanor and online persona.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    PJ: “It doesn’t mean they will “pound” you for 4 hours straight (but they possibly could). What it means is that they can keep the erection all night long and you can mix up the lovemaking, and when you are ready for another “pounding” session, he’s ready for it.”

    Holy crap, I agree with PJ for once.

    This is entirely true, and I wouldn’t have believed it at all, until I found myself in that situation. My craziest encounters have been 2.5-9 hours. The longer sessions required short breaks, of course, but 2 hours is no problem.

    Naturally, this is not really possible to do every day. You just need a multi-oragsmic woman (or more), and a man who can delay orgasm indefinitely. I can see that a woman who can only orgasm once, probably won’t like waiting 2 hours for it.

  • Emily

    Orlando = Michael/Piper/Mullan etc.

    …it’s like we’re playing “Spot the Plain Jane” again! :P

  • Plain Jane

    OK, I’d like to leave this other article about “slut dropping”. This one tackles it in a serious tone, without the justification of willingly objectifying herself for the sake of “the football team”.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/slut-dropping-and-pimps-and-hoes–the-sexual-politics-of-freshers-week-8203400.html

    “Meanwhile, female first-years at the University of Kent were “horrified” when their freshers’ week culminated in a show by a hypnotist who allegedly made them perform lap dances and told them “When you wake up, you will think he touched you up just now.” ”

    The mind boggles.

  • Plain Jane

    And that pic? NOT the girls legs. She has dark brown hair and the hair on her legs will be yellow? Not a chance.

    I don’t shave my legs but I can tell you its not that thick or noticeable because I never shaved them. If you never shave, you will never have a problem. Its after the first shave that it grows back thick and noticeable.

  • Just1X

    @OTC

    “Holy crap, I agree with PJ for once”

    doesn’t it make you feel dirty?…luckily, it doesn’t happen often

  • Plain Jane

    “Flatmate quit lacrosse team when given team ‘rules’ stating that members don’t date – that was what rape was for.”

    Another wrote: “men’s hockey team had fancy dress party at Student Union bar. Theme was rape victims. So awful its [sic] unbelievable but its [sic] true”

    Goodness, someone needs to go in and civilize the Brits once and for all.

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Desi, Susan, and Ted D,

    In my experience, there is indeed politically-correct pressure on research – both “hard” and social sciences. There are also funding agendas, where people study items that they can get grant money for researching. Those dynamics do censor what gets asked and how.

    Usually, with social science, this means that the information is incomplete. Often, the most politically-incorrect questions are not asked or cannot get published. However, that does not mean that what IS reported is untrue.

    For example, the evo guys who I know don’t fabricate results. What you read is an accurate report of the questions that they have asked. Certainly, even that should be repeated, cross-checked, etc. as is the typical process to support findings in science. But, what is published are not lies that should be discounted, thrown out, or dismissed.

    On the other hand, there are holes in the answers. There are unasked questions. There are many topics we discuss here that simply will not get empirically studied or published. So, the really crucial results, that might be truly ideology shattering and paradigm changing probably won’t be there. Again, that doesn’t mean what IS published is wrong. It just means that a lot of what is published seems to dance around the periphery of the issues we discuss – rather than getting to the heart of them.

    Fortunately, even “watered down”, we can still glean information from the published research to at least point us in the right direction. Evo psych particularly is “guiding” as best they can. The directions they are giving are indeed empirically-accurate. But, they just might not go as far as we’d like.

    Paradoxically, given all that, my general rule of thumb is…the LESS politically-correct the published finding, the MORE and BETTER empirical support for it. Stuff that goes against the grain simply doesn’t get published unless it is air-tight. Most evo psych falls under that domain. So, what they do get out to the public is pretty legit in my book.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Paradoxically, given all that, my general rule of thumb is…the LESS politically-correct the published finding, the MORE and BETTER empirical support for it. Stuff that goes against the grain simply doesn’t get published unless it is air-tight. Most evo psych falls under that domain. So, what they do get out to the public is pretty legit in my book.

      This has been my operating assumption, glad to hear it’s valid.

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Plain Jane

    Thanks for linking the article on “Slut Dropping” above.

    First off, these guys are idiots… But, why is no one speaking to and educating these women too? They are drunk, alone, and choosing to hitch a ride in a car full of strangers. Getting dropped off at the opposite side of town sucks, but it is not nearly the worst outcome that they could have had in that situation.

    Again, these guys are immature and should be reprimanded. Nevertheless, I hope the women learn from their relatively un-traumatizing long walk home to not take rides from strangers, rather than just whining they didn’t get a free ride. Bring some cash. Call a cab. Take some responsibility for yourself. Not everyone is going to cater to you. Better they learn that now, without any life-altering consequences.

  • J

    A man who sleeps with a porn star generally would not be high-fived..

    Roissy has a long-time commenter who does just that and is constantly high-fived.

  • J

    Orlando = Roland? It’s the same name in Italian.

  • Ted D

    J – “Roissy has a long-time commenter who does just that and is constantly high-fived.”

    Perhaps in some circles such behavior would trigger a round of high-fives, but not in mine. In fact, among my male friends the reaction would likely be something like: “your proud of being one of the bangs she didn’t get paid for? Because otherwise I hope you enjoyed being just another dick in a LONG line of them.”

  • J

    Perhaps in some circles such behavior would trigger a round of high-fives, but not in mine.

    Of course not, Ted.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Not sure on shy beta girls wanting to sleep/be in a relationship with average betas.
    Again read the forums and see Beta girls comments and experiences.

    Anaconda, I don’t pay attention to studies.

    Then your vision of the world is limited. I can’t help you with that.

    “Just say, FU and your opinions”, it’s the healthy thing to do when dealing with bigotted idiots.

    Easier said than done, but yes that would be the right attitude.

    Whether or not women from within the 80% get to the banging stage with the alpha is effectively irrelevant when viewed from the perspective of the finite resource of her attention. IOW, When considering the actual competitive dynamic of attraction, through approach, and eventual progression to any kind of one-on-one, the end result (sex) is less relevant than the preceding stages. The competitive landscape is driven by the attraction barrier not whether or not those women actually get to (or even want) sex with the alpha.

    I agree that if you cannot see him/her the rest is irrelevant I just disagree with the concept that no one wants the Beta males and all of them want the Alphas.

    I would guess that women in those group situations that Jason mentions are even more focused on the 20% based on the same premise that advises men not to approach a woman in a larger group. Whether she acknowledges it or not a woman will consider the opinions of those peers in her decision to engage with a man. And the 20% pool is a much safer pool to draw from in terms of ‘group approval’.

    This is the herd mentality and pluralistic ignorance at work. Women are raised to be distrustful of men so they seek the security of the group, but this same security filters out the very same men they wish to approach. The thing is no one pays attention to the dilemma of the Beta male that is actually following the rules. How many times had you seen anxiety approach depicted on the media? Or talked about to girls? Most of them think that men approach or not depending if they are attracted to you and since women don’t approach (shyness, not wanting to look needy) they are limited to the men that do, more often than not rule breakers like cads tend to do…and the cycle continues.
    The lack of communication among the genders is a real problem and a huge component of the issues with the SMP.

  • Plain Jane

    “First off, these guys are idiots… But, why is no one speaking to and educating these women too? They are drunk, alone, and choosing to hitch a ride in a car full of strangers. Getting dropped off at the opposite side of town sucks, but it is not nearly the worst outcome that they could have had in that situation.”

    To be fair, this is all taking place in the UK, one of the most uncultured countries I’ve ever been to in my life, if not the most.

  • Doug

    Not picky there are just better looking women. It would make an actual 8 or 10 like a 15 if I used your scale.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Plain Jane

    “Flatmate quit lacrosse team when given team ‘rules’ stating that members don’t date – that was what rape was for.”

    Another wrote: “men’s hockey team had fancy dress party at Student Union bar. Theme was rape victims. So awful its [sic] unbelievable but its [sic] true”

    Goodness, someone needs to go in and civilize the Brits once and for all.

    You’re aggressive, yet quite soft on those that embrace your beliefs.

    You’re an idealist, yet you color your comments with cynicism.

    You make no friends, yet you entertain your enemies.

    You champion your culture, yet it’s done in the language of a culture that conquered it.

    And you love a penis, yet men are repugnant to you.

  • Emily

    >> “Most of them think that men approach or not depending if they are attracted to you and since women don’t approach (shyness, not wanting to look needy) they are limited to the men that do, more often than not rule breakers like cads tend to do…and the cycle continues.”

    You can blame “He’s Just Not That Into You” for that one (amongst other things.)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You can blame “He’s Just Not That Into You” for that one (amongst other things.)

    You read my mind I was thinking about that SATC, turned book, turned movie. How fast memes grow…
    Add it to the principle of the least interest and yes we have another piece of the puzzle…Someone should be doing a tally of this: Reasons why the SMP suck. I think we have uncovered much of it here.

  • Desiderius

    “You can blame “He’s Just Not That Into You” for that one (amongst other things.)”

    Well, if you’re not showing any interest, its unlikely he will be if he has any self-respect. Get out there grrrl and take some initiative!

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Not to sound debauched or immature, but if a friend of mine managed to have sex with a hot pornstar and he didn’t pay for it, use a weapon, perform in a porn film, etc., my first response would be to congratulate him. Those girls have access to really wealthy guys, celebrities, etc. who are throwing $$$ at them, so to have sex with one in a non-commercial transaction would be unusual and very ego-validating.

    I actually had a female student ask me a week or two ago why any guy would be “against” hook-up culture and sexpos feminism, and I suggested that there were probably two major groups of American men who were most deeply offended: 1) evangelical Christians; 2) men who for various reasons did not participate in the hook-up scene and who are troubled by the price-discrimination problem that is posed if and when a woman who has been involved in the scene decides that she wants an LTR/husband.

    Even a secular person like this particular student could agree on the seriousness of the price-discrimination problem from a male point of view. For a guy, it’s sort of a humiliating position to be placed in, really.

    Re: studies, etc. I think we all know that a major limitation has been the use of self-reports and attitude surveys; marketing firms have long known that “buyers are liars”, and research suggests that people will actually DO what they FEEL like doing, but will SAY what they THINK they should say.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    Not to sound debauched or immature, but if a friend of mine managed to have sex with a hot pornstar and he didn’t pay for it, use a weapon, perform in a porn film, etc., my first response would be to congratulate him. Those girls have access to really wealthy guys, celebrities, etc. who are throwing $$$ at them, so to have sex with one in a non-commercial transaction would be unusual and very ego-validating.

    Don’t you belong to the unrestricted sexually cohort? Of course you and the men you associate with, unless they are chosen randomly people is bound to end with like minded acquaintances, will consider it a feat. Is on your blood to do so. ;)

  • Plain Jane

    “I guess we’ll have to see who she gets to commit to her. Certainly, Tracie Egan did fine for herself, and she was far sluttier in her demeanor and online persona.”

    Yeah, that’s the point. Any average or above looking female can do whatever the hell she wants, with whomever, even online, AND STILL GET an at least average looking (and often better) man to put a ring on it.

    Slut shaming won’t work.

  • Sai

    @Anacaona
    “But for that I will need a full body pic, of you to see your body type…I hope the fight with the PC is less bloody this time. :)”
    I’ll do my best (bloody Windows)

    @pvw
    Thanks for the suggestions! More photos are always helpful (funny, I used to say I wanted red hair and my dad would say I’d look ghetto).

    “oxygen requires Chuck Norris to live”
    LMAO

    @Just1X
    “Does anybody else think that modern society would be much improved by more people saying, “I don’t care what you think, because I think that your opinion is stupid and self harming. Like you.”.”
    *RAISES HAND*

    “and how did we get to where any hair on a woman that grows below the neck is horrible?”
    I didn’t know whether or not it was OK to have a bit on your arms… But that’s why I’m here, because I have a lot to learn.

    Also… in the older days when good-looking people chose who they wanted and uglies were stuck with each other, do you think they were content (even, I dare say, turned on?) or just put up with each other as a never-ending job because they despaired of being alone?
    (I know what Ana said, but this is after years and years of me having gorgeous peers and no smart replies to “You have a wide flat face!” I still have to believe harder/get used to it.)

  • Plain Jane

    “Also… in the older days when good-looking people chose who they wanted and uglies were stuck with each other”

    Those days are over? Nobody got the memo.

  • Plain Jane

    Doug October 11, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Not picky there are just better looking women. It would make an actual 8 or 10 like a 15 if I used your scale.
    ————

    I agree! Glad to know that some guys’ rating standards are low. I’m reassessing myself as a 10 now.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    If TCF, who is by all accounts just average looking at best, can openly and in much detail describe her very colorful sexcapades and STILL land a husband better looking (even if just slightly) than her………… are the rest of us average gals really supposed to believe that “slutting it up” and even advertising it (!), will be bad for our future “market value”?

    Yes.

    Don’t latch on to a few high profile examples and think you’ll be okay.

    This gal’s history would almost instantly DQ her in the eyes of most of the guys here at HUS. She would need to be very good indeed to make up the deficit of her slutty ways.

    In return, she got….

    Zero orgasms.

    That seems like the most horrible trade/investment ever. Go play World Of Warcraft, it’s more likely to get you a quality husband.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Go play World Of Warcraft, it’s more likely to get you a quality husband.

      It worked for Hope! I doubt TCF will ever have what Hope has.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Ana, you are correct, of course, although sometimes I think that the HUS line-up includes the 5-6 guys in the United States who would refuse to accept even a hand job from a willing tag-team of Megan Fox and Sofia Vergara.

  • J

    Sai–Where are these pictures? Did I miss them?

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    That seems like the most horrible trade/investment ever. Go play World Of Warcraft, it’s more likely to get you a quality husband.

    Heh I watched a play with a woman that said that if she knew that she was not going to have an orgasm during sex she might as well had used the time to make a cake. At least there would be cake at then and not just time wasted.

    Ana, you are correct, of course, although sometimes I think that the HUS line-up includes the 5-6 guys in the United States who would refuse to accept even a hand job from a willing tag-team of Megan Fox and Sofia Vergara.

    7… Hubby is like that too :) .
    You would be surprised how many men are selective were they put their dicks in. Hottie sometimes is not enough, there should be something else besides the boobs, the face and the willing vagina, but again this is a function of social bubbles , your bubble I mean how many male friends you have that you don’t like or have things in common with, this is another issue with the pluralistic ignorance.

  • Esau

    Go play World Of Warcraft, it’s more likely to get you a quality husband.

    It worked for Hope! I doubt TCF will ever have what Hope has.

    I concur; and I think there’s a great deal in this short exchange. We could just say that Hope is gifted, in a way that TCF is not; but it would be impolite for her to brag about it.

  • Ion

    Ana

    “I don’t watch Glee anymore, but I liked the beginning when they say something very interesting. “Not being famous, is worst than being poor” nowadays being popular is higher in the priority list than ever in history. So anyone that seems to achieve it looks like a hero/heroine. Part of the Facebook nation, YMMV”

    Exactly, a good example of this is recording the experience, no more real life experiences…everything must be a facebook photo op. I admit to being guilty of this as well…lol

    “I MUST post pics of this hot guy I got, my relationship status, my everything status because this validates my importance!” basically.

  • INTJ

    @ PJ

    I actually think that “slut-dropping” thing is a good thing. Better to get a lesson like that when you first go to school, then to have something much worse happen to you later.

  • pvw

    @ Sai:

    @pvw
    Thanks for the suggestions! More photos are always helpful (funny, I used to say I wanted red hair and my dad would say I’d look ghetto).

    Me: You’re welcome! I imagine he would say something similar if you wanted to dye it blonde…

  • Sai

    @J
    I posted the links in my response to the article Anacaona linked to a little while ago. I didn’t have the guts to post them here.
    (What the hey, here comes another -I hope this is a decent shot and please don’t condemn me to a life of black and red if you can help it)
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Tensaihime/DSCN1758_zps373b8646.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sai

      Oh my goodness, you silly girl! You are quite attractive, you have all kinds of options you have never explored! You need a mental reset, I hope you’ll get it here. Your fanciful and witty persona is the icing on the cake. You are not for all markets – no one is – but you should venture into the SMP feeling well armed!

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    I posted the links in my response to the article Anacaona linked to a little while ago. I didn’t have the guts to post them here.
    (What the hey, here comes another -I hope this is a decent shot and please don’t condemn me to a life of black and red if you can help it)
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Tensaihime/DSCN1758_zps373b8646.jpg

    You look great. Don’t worry about your looks. Girl game is what you need. ;)

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    You look great. Don’t worry about your looks. Girl game is what you need.

    Like I said she needs more of a make over of her mind than outside. Being attractive is in part the way you see yourself.
    @Sai
    I’ll save this pic and let you know soon what are the main things you could do. If you don’t hear from me in a few days I might be busy going on labor or something like it :).
    Any positive and constructive advice from other readers is welcome.
    Warning all of you thinking that Kate Upson and up is the only type of woman worth it of being called “fine” looking. Please abstain from commenting or advising. Thank you :)

  • J

    Sai, I agree with Ana. I don’t do the number thing, but considering the lack of make-up and the pulled-back hair, I’d say above average face and a great figure.

  • Desiderius

    Ana,

    “Like I said she needs more of a make over of her mind than outside. Being attractive is in part the way you see yourself.”

    Exactly. I could tell she was a stunner by the way she talked about herself in the Husband Material thread. Beautiful women tend to have some, um, interesting beliefs about their own attractiveness.

    Perfect the enemy of the damn good, yet again.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    @Sai
    Oh I forgot to leave you homework.
    The best inexpensive accessory is a smile. So smile, smile to yourself, to your pets, to your family, to the mirror, to dogs on the street…smile, smile, smile. If you can’t smile without motivation think of something funny, watch funny youtube videos…Make those smile muscles warm up and don’t be afraid of smiling. Just think that you are having a good time no matter what you are doing. Be happy is free! :D

  • Desiderius

    BB,

    “I actually had a female student ask me a week or two ago why any guy would be “against” hook-up culture and sexpos feminism, and I suggested that there were probably two major groups of American men who were most deeply offended: 1) evangelical Christians; 2) men who for various reasons did not participate in the hook-up scene and who are troubled by the price-discrimination problem that is posed if and when a woman who has been involved in the scene decides that she wants an LTR/husband.”

    You have so much good stuff to offer, then you drop a turd like this. You forgot (3) any parent who takes the time and effort to find out what is actually going on and has a young adult child stuck in it.

    Not to mention (4) anyone who wants their society not to suck.

  • Plain Jane

    Sai, what the hell? By the way you wrote about yourself I truly did picture an unattractive woman and felt sorry for you!!! No more sympathy!

  • Plain Jane

    “I actually think that “slut-dropping” thing is a good thing. Better to get a lesson like that when you first go to school, then to have something much worse happen to you later.”

    Yeah, someone commented that those girls are lucky they are getting dropped instead of raped. Sad state of affairs when its come to thinking like that, eh?

    The rest of it, the pimps-n-hos parties they are participating in? No body is forcing them to go. That one girl at Jezebel hilariously wrote;

    “It was almost a weekly ritual for my friends and me when we were 18-year-old college freshmen — we’d get dressed up in the slutty dress code dictated by the boys (almost always boys; girls didn’t invite other girls to their parties) throwing the most rollicking soiree, put on our highest shoes, push our boobs up so they sat neatly under our chins like a pectoral butt, and totter over to the party in a group, like herd of slutty newborn deer. What any of us actually did at the party was inconsequential to our status as “sluts.” ”

    I asked myself, “why the hell would she WILLINGLY go to such parties?

    Then in the next line I got my answer;

    “We could go there and recite Bible verses or drunkenly lecture members of THE FOOTBALL TEAM……..”

    Its all about teh menz!

    ….”about the inherent sexism of commenting on a girl’s ass as she stood right in front of you in line for beer — or we could go home with some random junior who you saw once in line for stir fry at the dining hall. Either way, we were sluts, because we went to the party dressed in a way that acknowledged our buying into the notion that all of the “fun” women are sluts. I slut, therefore I am. And this was at a Catholic school. Lord knows what was happening at those terrifyingly Bacchanalian secular universities my parents warned me about.”

    Desi, did you catch that? All dat at a “catholic school”!!!!

    In other words, these young women are objectifying themselves. There’s no way in hell I’d ever go to a party like, created by and for horny jocks. They get their egos scratched ENOUGH in our culture. Women should be SHAMED for agreeing to stroke them further. Haven’t this co-eds ever heard of Feminism? I suppose the writer was a “cheerleader” also. Gag. Sure go on, set women back by about a thousand years.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The shock at these sexy theme parties is several years overdue. Bridget Jones went to a Tarts and Vicars party. CEOs and Office Hos was prevalent when my kinds were in high school.

  • Desiderius

    Susan,

    “In September of 2000″

    This was in the wake of that 2AM booty call from Clinton that feminism dutifully showed up for to save him from the Lewinsky P&D. Feminism was going through some bad times then, that’s not really who she was…

  • Just1X

    @PJ

    didn’t invite you, don’t want you back…

    love ‘n’ kisses

    the entire population of the UK

  • SayWhaat

    I doubt TCF will ever have what Hope has.

    But Slutmachine Egan does.

    Damn, that picture depressed me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      But Slutmachine Egan does.

      Damn, that picture depressed me.

      Maybe this will cheer you up. I found this on Tracie Egan’s Tumblr, claiming seeing this photo made her fall in love all over again:

      te

      I guess he cleans up well :-/

  • Jackie

    @Sai
    Hi Sai!

    Thanks so much for sharing your pic! You have a radiant, lovely quality– PLEASE stop putting yourself down, ok?

    My 0.03: Would you consider a “pinup” style for your figure? I think it could be incredibly flattering on you– look at Joan Holloway or Bettie Draper on “Mad Men.” They were some really lovely feminine looks.

    If I was your stylist, these would be some of my offerings for your consideration:

    http://www.stopstaringclothing.com/sunshop/timls-03-green-1282.html
    http://www.bettiepageclothing.com/dresses/alika-pencil-red
    http://www.shoeperwoman.com/2011/06/shoeper-shoe-challenge-17-hollywood.html/bettie-page-captain-dress
    http://www.formosafashion.com/womenswear-c1/dresses-c30/stop-staring-raileen-dress-p160

    Basically, clean lines that would flatter your figure, in a color that would draw the eye. Retro forever! :mrgreen:

  • Emily

    I strongly cosign everything that everybody has said about Sai.

    IMO your main issues are lack of self-esteem, but also logistics. I suspect that if you were to make friends with a group of nerds, you’d suddenly find yourself with at least one beta orbiter.

    Mild constructive criticism: I think you should get a different shirt. Jeans + feminine top can be just as comfortable as jeans + t-shirt, but it will look a lot nicer.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @Sai

    I’m pretty sure you’re gonna be quite a looker with the right make-up. Consider these before/after pics :

    One

    Two

    Three

    Four

    Five

    Six

    Seven

    Eight

    Nine

    Ten

    And long straight hair … there is nothing, for me, quite as captivating as long straight hair … unless it’s curly, and besprayed with that stiffening stuff, and you’re about to dive into the main pool of a trout farm …

    And I do believe your body is eerily similar to that of Kim Kardashian.

    That’s a compliment.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I feel so happy and proud of all the generous support people are giving to Sai. There are so many wonderful people who comment here, I am very grateful.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Desi, good corrections. I don’t think that I can really use the “anyone who wants their society not to suck thing” credibly, though, because these undergrads believe that the men against hook-up culture are a kind of package deal that essentially includes a lot of ” intolerant, pro-labor union white supremacists who also hate gays and IR dating.”

    Furthermore, the charge is often that these men don’t necessarily hate hook up culture per se, but they certainly hate what it seems to be attached to: aggressively ambitious, high-earning professional women of dubious
    domestic/traditional marriage orientation. IME, a number of young women feel that hook-up is a proxy fight in a much broader culture war.

    Maybe this is an area where the sex-pos and other hook-up defenders are controlling the narrative and the men who want to fight hook-up are dealing with some less than flattering stereotypes.

  • Desiderius

    “Maybe this is an area where the sex-pos and other hook-up defenders are controlling the narrative and the men who want to fight hook-up are dealing with some less than flattering stereotypes.”

    There’s no maybe about it. Prejudice ultimately hurts the hater as much as the game – they need some help seeing a bigger picture, and the majority unhappy with the hookup norm need a break from the hate.

  • Benton

    “Not only that, she didn’t even really get validation. She was screwing guys with tattoos that said, “forgive me.” She chose guys who dumped her before they pumped her. Where’s the validation in that?”

    Wow. That doesn’t make any sense to me. It must be a type of thrill seeking, where the payoff is the danger and not the actual experience. The porn star experience captures that perfectly, where the sex was bad, he treated her poorly, and her reward was being able to say “I had sex with my favorite porn star!”
    That type of behavior must be driven by a psychological flaw or chemical imbalance. I cannot believe it is being promoted by people who want to help women!

  • Ted D

    Sai – Wow. Like Susan said, you won’t be for everybody (and also like Susan said NO ONE is anyway) but good grief you’ve got a SOLID foundation to build on. I don’t have any advice to add since I have NO clue what it takes for a woman to “dress it up”, but what I can say based on that picture is you’ve got a great figure, attractive features, and from what I can see I’m sure I’d be checking you out if I saw you walking the mall while I’m doing my 3 miles at lunch. That coupled with your personality (which is far from the “norm” when it comes to Western women) really sets you apart.

    After the ladies here are done with their make-over suggestions, I think you would be smart to spend a little time really thinking about what kind of guy you are looking for, and determine who your target audience should be. If you like nerdy/geeky/smart/STEM type guys, your biggest hurdle will be simply getting them to “open” with you. In other words, I fully expect them to think you are hot, but they are also not the type of guy to be bold enough to initiate.

    I’m with PJ. I often thought that it was piss poor that such a nice woman was stuck being behind in looks. No more sympathy for you! ;-)

  • Abbot

    You can feel the tension in these quotes from that hook-up damage-control Slate article by Marcotte –

    _1____
    Anyone who actually takes the BS that is presented as “insight” at hookingupsmart is simply an idiot. I’ve accidentally landed there a number of times by accident (that’s what you get for clicking links on the Blogher network), and it never fails to infuriate me. I think the women who writes for that site truly hates herself, and she attracts alot of likeminded men who also revel in judging women. if you are a woman who actually likes sex and finds nothing wrong with having it on a casual basis, don’t bother–all you’ll get is extreme judgement.

    _2____
    Once again, you seem to think that we females who have had a few partner (or a lot of partners, whatever) are ashamed of it. I’m not. You can’t possibly “$|ut shame” me. I don’t have to account to you or anyone. There have been times in my life where I had sex freely and, for more years that I care to admit now, there have been more times when I didn’t. I’m a feminist, for sure, but both situations were “sex positive” and that, in my mind, is a good thing. Go try to make someone else feel shamed. You won’t find it here.

    _3___
    I don’t really know what you’re talking about (as usual), but if I came across a man who put out that judgement thing, I just left him alone. He would never even get lucky enough to get the time of day from me, let alone anything else. There were plenty of men who didn’t care, that it really was never an issue.

    _4___
    I can say that, at least it’s been my experience, that men with a high N were better lovers. From what I can remember, a lot of men who haven’t had much experience weren’t particularly great in bed. Often that meant that they were relying on porn for their instruction and that pretty much guaranteed them being bad lovers. One of the reasons that I married my husband was because he was spectacular in that area and I could see myself not being tempted to stray because of this. And he had the highest N of those whose N I knew.

    _5____
    Men are easy. And I was beautiful. Simple. I did what I wanted, when I wanted and with whom I wanted. Then, when I wanted something else, that’s what I did. No problem. If any man came to the table with your attitude, they were left at the door. In fact, if I can remember, some guy started to show his true colors significantly further into the door. I left. Years later he came up to me and tried to apologize for being an a$$ho|e. I blew him off. Felt good.

    And, btw, I have absolutely no regrets about my number. When I met the man I eventually married, I knew what I wanted, and I knew what was out there. Never once, in 24 years of marriage, have I had to wonder if I missed something. I know what’s around. Been there. Done that. Have the t-shirt. Good deal all the way around.

  • Lokland

    @Sai

    Mhmm, tasty.
    Its all in your head.

  • pvw

    @Sai, you are very pretty–an attractive brown-skinned black woman with red undertones. You look like some of the women in my mom’s side of the family. If I knew you in person, I’d drag you off to go shopping! Look for fashion guides for red undertones–makeup and clothes. Also, think about your body shape—pear, apple, hourglass, for cut of clothing. You perm your hair? Think about styles, cuts that fit your face—ideas from black women’s hair magazines, whether you decide on a permed or natural look.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I agree with the many admiring comments about Sai. I’d also second the recommendations that she consider a classic va-va-voom pin-up style; Sai has the body type to make it work and it makes for a very feminine, sexy presentation.

    Just to add my $.02: I have modest experience with this particular wardrobe theme because I tend to buy outfits, lingerie, and cosmetics for women as date gifts (I know—classic beta supplicant move, but there is method behind my madness. Besides, my mom is a zealous power-shopper and I was taken on some of her shopping safaris to Paris when I was a child). I found that there is a Pin Up Girl retro clothing site that has perfected the look—the sort of thing you might have expected men to have drawn on WWII aircraft as nose art.

    They aren’t the sort of staple, basic pieces that you’d necessarily want for everyday use, but at the same time they won’t set you back the $$$ that, say, Lanvin would, and the shoes will get compliments from women who are wearing far more expensive pairs.

    Anyway, just another data point/male opinion for you to consider!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      Give us the name of that Pin Up Girl site!

  • pvw

    @Desi re. beautiful women having unusual ideas about their attractiveness. I think it is common where there is a mismatch between a woman’s smv and the smp where she is located, it can contribute to feelings of invisibility, ie., and not feeling very attractive. But the problem as Sai spoke of before, and which we are realizing now, her smv and mmv is off the charts compared to those in her environment who have approached.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    I have to admit I haven’t followed Sai’s postings to understand what she’s worried about. She looks like a nice young lady, with good posture. I can’t say amazingly pretty (thats me, I seem to be unable to judge black women, unless they look like Meagan Good) — but certainly not ugly, and certainly has lots of good options.

    Like Ted said, there’s no real *requirement* for her to upgrade her look, unless she is *totally* dissatisfied with the type/looks of men that approach her – after she has an attitude adjustment to get some better approaches. But if that’s the case, upgrade the daily casual style to a bit more fitted/flowing (boxy t-shirts with pit-stains should go), get a better bra fit; then work on dressier styles like pinupgirl and modcloth as BB suggested.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Pinupgirlclothing.com and modcloth.com — favorites of the Mrs. The models on the former are *extreme* busty hourglasses (drool), so watch out. Modcloth is a bit more tones down.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      Thanks for the links! I’m probably a bit old for the fashions but I adore vintage stuff.

  • pvw

    @Sai, the Metrostyle link has some dresses that approximate that type of pin up style spoken of here, ie., Joan in Mad Men–figure hugging in an attractive way that would fit your shape, Download the pictures for when you go shopping.

  • J

    @pvw

    But the problem as Sai spoke of before, and which we are realizing now, her smv and mmv is off the charts compared to those in her environment who have approached.

    So probably guys are negging her to knock her off the pedestal they imagine she thinks she’s on and maybe she’s been believing them.

    @Sai

    I’ll cosign what has been said about retro dresses for you. You have the figure. I found your current hairstyle a bit severe, but I’m not sure that natural hair or braids would look good with retro clothes. Diana Ross and the Supremes hair would be period accurate, but I would guess hard to maintain.

  • Jackie

    @ Sai & Co.

    To add to OTC’s list, what about bettiepageclothing.com/dresses ? (BTW, OTC, the women on P-U-G are almost certainly wearing vintage corsets. I hope this isn’t too frank: A lot of them are not super-endowed in the bust area, but the corset exaggerates their proportions to make them look more Vargas-y and comic book-like. Just fyi ;) )

    Also, Sai: Here is a retro blogger who does a great job wearing this style & could give you ideas:
    http://www.thefashionpolice.net/retro-vintage-fashion

    Finally, I can’t remember if you said you were still in school and watching your money? If so, try eBay for “pin up dress” in your size and start browsing. Lotsa good stuff out there! :D

  • J

    @SW #379

    To be fair to Mr. Slutmachine, it’s a bad angle. That plus the red eye and perhaps a few extra pounds conspire to make him look bad.

    What’s up with the flasher? Pre-selection?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      What’s up with the flasher? Pre-selection?

      Oh lord, I have tears streaming down my cheeks. That’s the best laugh I had all week. Those are some ugly boobs – what on earth was she thinking?

  • pvw

    @J, something I just remembered she mentioned, some of these were thuggish types who see the looks but don’t realize there is a very high mmv behind it. It is a very difficult quandary for high mmv black women who are very attractive and who are experiencing a mismatch in their smp/mmp. You see it all the time in big urban areas.

  • Jackie

    @J, Susan
    #379:
    :shock:

    OK, her name sounded familiar– someone posted a parenting article she wrote, I think? She is presenting a really interesting narrative transformation. 10 seconds of Google:

    *Besides the Slutmachine moniker, apparently she wrote for Jezebel about her refusal to use protection and subsequent contracting of multiple STIs. Instead of changing her behavior, she would write posts requesting other people to share their stories to “make her feel better.”

    *Apparently had a blog detailing her life as a sexual adventuress, One D At A Time, which got password protected somewhere around her engagement

    *Marriage

    *She now blogs (tumblr, I mean) as MrsMorrisey and has turned mommy-blogger in many of her articles
    ======
    I guess the thing that is fascinating to me is: She put it all out there.

    She isn’t trying to portray herself as some angelic creature and she isn’t trumpeting “these mistakes made me who I am today.” (And I doubt she would classify her actions as “mistakes” in the first place.)

    Doesn’t this challenge a lot of stuff we have been discussing? To me, that is actually much more interesting than her exploits.

    I would also find it interesting how she deals with her daughter’s sexuality eventually: What kind of a path will she encourage for her child? How has becoming a parent changed her?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      Doesn’t this challenge a lot of stuff we have been discussing? To me, that is actually much more interesting than her exploits.

      How so? Are you saying that everything worked out great for her despite her choices? Or maybe even because of them?

      I would also find it interesting how she deals with her daughter’s sexuality eventually: What kind of a path will she encourage for her child? How has becoming a parent changed her?

      I know that one thing she’s done is enter her daughter in an infant beauty pageant. She reminds me quite a bit of Heather Armstrong of Dooce in her mommy blogging role.

  • VD

    Sai, I’m not going to flay you here or anything. You’re looking to improve yourself and that’s great. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with you. On the other hand, Victoria’s Secret isn’t going to beat down your door insisting you appear in their annual TV special either. The problem is that you really can’t listen to the people here if you genuinely wish to improve yourself rather than feel good about where you happen to be right now. They mean well, but they’re just not going to tell you any harsh truths, they’re going to murmur polite falsehoods in order to make you feel better about yourself while delicately making suggestions around the edges.

    Very few women are “very pretty”, just as very few men are “very handsome”. Don’t worry about that sort of thing, worry about being the best you that you can be. And don’t fall into the attention whore Facebook trap of seeking all the affirmative “Wow!” and “Gorgeous, girl!” and “I’m so jealous!” responses from other women. They won’t do you any good at all. A better bet is to find someone whose opinion you trust about other women, who knows something about either fashion or the body, and ask them honestly how you can improve your appearance. A gay physical trainer would probably be ideal.

    Sometimes there isn’t anything you can do. My friend’s wife once asked me how she could reduce the size of her hips. I felt one between my thumb and forefinger, then told her she’d need a hacksaw. She didn’t have an ounce of fat there, it was just the shape of her bones that made her curvy. But sometimes there is and you’re never going to find out from the “girl, you so sexy” crowd.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      My friend’s wife once asked me how she could reduce the size of her hips. I felt one between my thumb and forefinger, then told her she’d need a hacksaw.

      Sounds like you’re just as charming in person. :)

  • Ted D

    jackie – “Doesn’t this challenge a lot of stuff we have been discussing? To me, that is actually much more interesting than her exploits.”

    The guy that married her could have any number of reasons for it. But, what we talk about here is more along the lines of: the men that COULD deal with a woman’s past like that are probably either low on the attraction scale, have a checkered past of their own, or perhaps see it in the same light as many women do in regards to turning the “cad”.

    At any rate, the message to young women is: this is NOT an optimal strategy if marriage and LT happiness IN a marriage is your goal.

  • Ted D

    “A gay physical trainer would probably be ideal.”

    Truth. One of my previous LTR mates had several homosexual male friends. Not only are they good at helping women out in terms of looks and dress, but they seem to love the challenge. I suppose it is a lot like playing with a life sized Barbie! At any rate, I’ve seen a few major transformations with nothing other than adjustments in wardrobe and make-up. One of her friends was a hair stylist (I know, stereotypical…) and he had a portfolio of before-after pictures of total makeovers they’d done. Simply astounding stuff.

  • J

    It is a very difficult quandary for high mmv black women who are very attractive and who are experiencing a mismatch in their smp/mmp. You see it all the time in big urban areas.

    Not just a black problem, and not just recently. As a young woman, I was in Sai’s situation–a high mmp woman in “a slut’s body.” The figure attracts the wrong kind of guy and intimidates the right kind of guy, no matter what’s on the inside. I suspect that’s why Sai dresses down. Maybe we’re wrong about the va-va-voomy retro look.

  • J

    Besides the Slutmachine moniker, apparently she wrote for Jezebel about her refusal to use protection and subsequent contracting of multiple STIs. Instead of changing her behavior, she would write posts requesting other people to share their stories to “make her feel better.”

    I think I recall that article. Yuck.

  • pvw

    @J, thanks for reminding me of that…A good observation for Sai to think of; it’s been a long time for me since I had those similar experiences, ie., as a teenager who had a womanly shape. Question–how to develop an attractive look that would not be uncomfortable?

  • J

    Hard to say, pvw. I think hiding under loose clothes is a bad idea. I myself have three basic looks:

    1) outdoorsy–jeans, boots, casual jacket or parka–sort of like Sarh Palin on her Alaska show
    2) business–sort of like Sarh Palin on the campaign trail
    3) churchy-modest clothes–no sleeveless, low cut, tight or shorter than below the knee.

    I never wear tight clothes, but I like clothes that are figure-skimming.

    Not sure what else to do with clothes. Perhaps Sai needs a new venue/better class of guys–more campus, less urban?

  • SayWhaat

    Susan, that picture does make me feel better. Thanks! :P

    @pvw, J:

    I have that same problem. Generally I just opt for figure-hugging clothes. Occasionally I’d wear a low (scoop or sweetheart) neckline, especially if a date is involved. Sai would be served well by cultivating a Joan Holloway style.

    ModCloth usually doesn’t let me down, like others have already suggested, I suggest she start there.

  • J

    re: makeup and makeovers

    Michelle Phan (aka Ricebunny) does great how-to vids on Youtube. She started amateur but is now a pro with sponsorships. There’s also a lot of black hare care stuff on Youtube. (I have coarse dry 2b/c hair; some AA products work for me.)

  • Abbot

    “”I didn’t mention that I’d faked it during nearly all of my dalliances.”
    –TCF

    Its official. High N is now High D

  • Desiderius

    “Maybe we’re wrong about the va-va-voomy retro look.”

    Please. Just needs to take that power and use it as a force for good. If she takes some initiative, those men won’t be intimidated for long. Sounds like she picked up some of the same anti-game I did. Once she lets that go – watch out!

  • HanSolo

    @VD

    But sometimes there is and you’re never going to find out from the “girl, you so sexy” crowd.

    That’s why it’s better to get advice from blunt male friends you can trust. Gay guys are perfect for this because they are neither attracted in the slightest to the girl nor have the fear of offending cloud hanging over their heads that most average guys do.

    Not saying that women can’t give good advice–they can–but too often the nurturing mother side “rears its head” that cares more about creating a loving and feel-good environment. That nurturing is good for babies and small children that can’t do anything about their situation but not for people looking for the unvarnished truth and blunt advice on how to improve.

    Gay guys are excellent because they tend to have a great sense of looks and fashion, care about their female friend nonromantically, and will be blunt.

  • pvw

    @J and Saywhaat, I’ve pursued similar strategies re. dress. As for location, no wonder Sai wants to move! But the self confidence thing matters too, as others have noted.

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @J

    Not just a black problem, and not just recently. As a young woman, I was in Sai’s situation–a high mmp woman in “a slut’s body.” The figure attracts the wrong kind of guy and intimidates the right kind of guy, no matter what’s on the inside. I suspect that’s why Sai dresses down. Maybe we’re wrong about the va-va-voomy retro look.

    This is interesting. How did you get married then ?

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Just to add to the comments about finding good people for presentation/wardrobe & style-type advice: I have found that it is better to encourage someone with a style that *will* work for them than to emphasize what they can’t wear.

    Example: if you are assisting a voluptuous woman, don’t lead by telling her how she shouldn’t try to wear, say, moto-inspired Alexander Wang street-type stuff that someone built like Maggie Q might look great in; instead, emphasize the stuff that actually would be flattering and sexy.

    I think that the clothes and the confidence should be co-developed, as attitude can be really important to pull off certain edgier, more attention-grabbing looks. When it comes to clothing advice, *some* women can turn out to be real frenemies by either pushing the negative stuff first or actually giving bad advice to sabotage a would-be rival’s efforts, so beware…

    There is an old phrase in boxing: “lead with speed, then devour with power.” For LTR-seeking good girl types, I think you want to lead with the sex appeal, then develop the situation further with your personality, charm, and high-quality values. Please don’t feel that you have to concede the sexiness to the high-N women; that’s false economy, IMHO.

  • VD

    Sounds like you’re just as charming in person.

    Pretty women do seem to love bastards. I once had the same woman, who was using dumbbells to work triceps at the club with us, on her knees and one elbow, lifting her chin, arching her back like a U, and sticking out her breasts and her butt to the maximum extent possible, all in the name of “the right form”. Her husband and our friends were just about crying, they were having so much trouble stifling their laughter as she was looking over at me, trying to make sure she had it right.

    “Is that right?”

    “Yeah, just about. Try to arch your back a little more….”

    I just wish we’d had camera phones back then.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @VD

      Her husband should have been worried, not laughing. Are they still together?

  • Plain Jane

    The before and after pics. Number 7 looks 2 points better BEFORE. When a woman has a naturally pretty face, makeup does nothing but make her look old.

  • Plain Jane

    “And long straight hair … there is nothing, for me, quite as captivating as long straight hair … unless it’s curly, and besprayed with that stiffening stuff, and you’re about to dive into the main pool of a trout farm … ”

    Sai is black. For her to have long straight hair she’d have to spend alot of money and risk her healthy to have it chemically straightened, which damages the roots and causes it to fall out in the long run, unless she grew natural dreadlocks.

    Natural black hair is strong, thick and beautiful and there are million things you can do with it. (I was always envious of that).

    Sai, this woman’s locks are REAL. She never cut her hair her entire life. They are down to her knees now. Maybe you’ve seen her. She’s a semi-famous Caribbean American model, Nerissa Irving.

    Gorgeous!

    http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=800&bih=483&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnso&tbnid=qxMcQrt4JEApaM:&imgrefurl=http://naturallyrandom.onsugar.com/Nerissa-Irving-7846225&docid=gbPd3fkL5ARAYM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_c1ekJRyYOTA/SxhkVcItHpI/AAAAAAAAADQ/YalAPO2v5sU/s1600/Neresa2.jpg&w=481&h=561&ei=xIV4UNySCoPM9QTD0IDoBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=219&vpy=128&dur=121&hovh=242&hovw=208&tx=75&ty=148&sig=106245985610555944879&page=2&tbnh=139&tbnw=135&start=11&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0,i:121

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Slut body, J? She’s a typical young woman, not overweight, with a decent figure; not a dramatic hourglass. Hardly intimidating. See VD’s comment.

  • J

    This is interesting. How did you get married then?

    Luck, basically. :-)

  • J

    Slut body, J?

    Large breasts IME read “slut” to a lot of guys. I wasn’t implying Sai anything about Sai.

  • J

    @SW

    Those are some ugly boobs – what on earth was she thinking?

    That she paid good money for those boobs and that she was going to show them off?

    Those can be real. They look too round at the top for the degree of sagging she has, and her nipple look slightly askew.. They look like cheap implants.

  • J

    Please. Just needs to take that power and use it as a force for good.

    LOL, Desi.

    @OTC

    not a dramatic hourglass

    I assume the shirt is hiding a small waist. A woman with an hourglass figure would still look boxy in that shirt. It drapes straight down from her breasts. That’s why I suggested figure skimming clothes that would show her waistline.

  • J

    @SW

    You’re right that the more cleavage-y and tight stuff is not for women our age, but I’d buy a few of those dresses and acessorize them with a scarf or wrap, cardigan or jacket. My mom was in her 40s during the ’60s, and she wore those clothes when they were the current fashion–and women then looked about 10 years older than they do now.

  • pvw

    @Bastiat Blogger on nice girls leading with sexiness and following with personality, charm and values—good approach, without question, and applicable, of course, to other types of interactions, business (work), etc., beauty and charm goes a helluva long way….

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Just to add to the comments about finding good people for presentation/wardrobe & style-type advice: I have found that it is better to encourage someone with a style that *will* work for them than to emphasize what they can’t wear.

    This.

    Really, if someone doesn’t have a positive concept about themselves with fashion, leading off with everything they CAN’T wear just makes them feel ugly.

    You have to build a positive mindset with them and fashion first. More like a “HEY THIS IS WHAT YOU CAN BEEEEEEEE YOU SHOULD BE EXCITED” rather than “you look crappy in everything except for this”

  • http://marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    @J

    Luck, basically. :-)

    Tell me more madam, or else I shall advise Dr Hastings Kamuzu Bakakka to dedicate his Encyclopedia of Humorously Shaped Vegetables only to you …

  • SayWhaat

    nice girls leading with sexiness and following with personality, charm and values—good approach, without question, and applicable, of course, to other types of interactions, business (work), etc., beauty and charm goes a helluva long way….

    I smell a post in this. Female Action Plan? FAP? (LOL!)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I smell a post in this. Female Action Plan? FAP? (LOL!)

      That’s brilliant.

  • Sai

    Aaah, you lot are going to make me turn red. I was expecting Gordon Ramsay-style harshness. I actually have memories of looking at pin-up girls and feeling sad/wanting to pull that off, so I will definitely consider that. I tend to be cheap when it doesn’t involve Morgan Silver Dollars, but it’s not like I have to get any more $150 calculus books so I guess it’s time to invest in better clothes.
    (I was dressed like a slacker because I was goofing off at home, deciding whether to watch Christine make road pizza or Hannibal make… er)
    @Anacaona
    “If you don’t hear from me in a few days I might be busy going on labor or something like it :)”
    Take care of what’s most important first.
    (And I will try harder to smile more…)

    @VD/Ted D/Han Solo
    I’m glad you were so honest. I’m not yet sure what the very best I can be is, but I’ll even go see a doctor out of state if that’s what it would take. I would be happy to take the physical trainer route… but the only way for me to tell who was gay would be to ask. /oblivious

    (Also LOL at the weightlifting fail. I almost hurt just imagining her posture.)

    @Benton
    “I cannot believe it is being promoted by people who want to help women!”
    Neither can we.

    “The rest of it, the pimps-n-hos parties they are participating in? No body is forcing them to go.”
    It’s true, they chose this and they chose to get drunk around a bunch of strangers.

  • J

    Tell me more madam, or else I shall advise Dr Hastings Kamuzu Bakakka to dedicate his Encyclopedia of Humorously Shaped Vegetables only to you

    Since no one has ever dedicated a book to me, I’m tempted to withhold information. Let’s just say I won him in a card game.. ;-)

    Actually this blog is littered with bits and pieces of our story. Long story short, I was dragged to a b’day party for a woman I didn’t know in a dive bar I didn’t want to frequent about six weeks after breaking up a three + year relationship and reconciling myself to the possibility that I had missed my last chance at marriage. My DH, who had been owed money by the bar owner for a number of years, was making one of his semi-annual attempts to collect. We saw each other across a crowded room; a band that existed only in my head began playing “Some Enchanted Evening,” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbskoBOHyc8) and the rest is history. Kismet!

  • pvw

    @Sai, I’m glad you find the comments helpful. But it doesn’t sound like you need to see a doctor, and a personal trainet at the local gym can help with tightening up a fitness toutine, ie., at a local YMCA, provided it is a good one with that type of progamming. I think that one helpful possibility lies in using personsl shoppers, ie., I just saw Macy’s has them, and it seemed, for free, ideal if you are just finishing school. Although Macy’s can be somewhat high end, the help of a shopper can carry you through in shopping at other places, if you are on a budget.

  • pvw

    @Susan, yes, a good idea. I’m at a conference now, and I’m noticing this, FAP as key.

    @Sai, I must say the caveats mentioned were great, regarding whoever you might get help from irl.

  • INTJ

    @ Sai

    First, I’ll cosign what others said about getting a form-fitting shirt/top. It’s clear from your hand placement that you have a nice small waist, but the shirt masks this waist.

    I’m glad you were so honest. I’m not yet sure what the very best I can be is, but I’ll even go see a doctor out of state if that’s what it would take. I would be happy to take the physical trainer route… but the only way for me to tell who was gay would be to ask. /oblivious

    Here’s the thing. I’m not saying you look perfect and you can’t improve your looks. Certainly, physical training will help you improve looks-wise. But don’t focus too much on looks. You’re good looking enough that you’re going to get diminishing returns from that. Focus on getting into activities that will help you meet the STEM guys and general nerds that you like, then pick a guy you like, and start giving out lots of IOIs. The biggest problem is that nerdy guys are very shy and lacking in confidence when it comes to girls. You’ll have to be proactive to get the ball rolling.

  • Hope

    I decided to peek in… had about a month of 1-to-2-hour sleep nights, and my wonderful husband watched the baby and let me sleep for 4 hours tonight! I feel like a new person. :P

    Sai, you look great! I second what others have said. Work that hourglass figure! I never had one until I gave birth to our boy, got my hips stretched and started nursing. Now I have practically no shirts that fit, since I had a bunch of tight clothes before. Not that I go outside much…

    I need to update this, but here are more pics of our boy (only up to 2 weeks… he’s almost a 9 pounder now).

    http://aidanrc.shutterfly.com/

    Also, Anacaona, good luck and hope your delivery goes smoothly! Having a newborn is a hectic time… take it easy on yourself.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I’ve been thinking about you, it’s so good to see you! I love those pics of Aidan – the one with one eye open cracks me up. I’m glad to hear he has gained weight and is thriving. We look forward to new pics.

  • INTJ

    @ Hope

    Oh god why did I click that link. You need to put a warning for cuteness overload.

  • Society’s Disposable Son

    I’m kinda surprised at the advice to the retro pinup style. I thought that was mostly tied in with the rockabilly revivalists or the psychobilly crowd (which is just a punk version of rockabilly). Didn’t realize it was becoming so popular…Heh, when I had to start my job search last year I shaved off my beard after 7 years I went basically greaser with my hair since I more or less dress that way anyways and have had the glasses to match all along.

  • Desiderius

    SW,

    Judging from the Slutmachine knife-dom photo, my guess is:

    Here’s a man unfazed by a chest stranger than my own – better lock that down. Let’s just say the Slutmachine could have used some lift, but she needed no help in the separate department.

    Obv by the newlywed photo dropping the weight had done her a world of good, and the dress was doing good work too. The tuxedo was doing all the work for the guy and then some – I wasn’t impressed even before the Homer Simpson photo.

  • Sai

    @Hope
    How’d you get him to do that!? That is some good muscle control!

  • HanSolo

    @Sai

    “@VD/Ted D/Han Solo I’m glad you were so honest.”

    You’re welcome. Feel free to ask my opinion anytime if you have a question.

  • also intj

    Hope, it’s great to see a post from you. Aidan is absolutely adorable! Here’s to him sleeping through the night before long. How long do you have off before returning to work?

    Sai, I agree with INTJ about you needing to look for ways to meet the kind of guys you’re interested in. Check out meetup.com for groups in your area that are based on interests of yours. Also, urban areas often have quite a number of meetup groups specifically for singles.

  • Doc

    The “change” is typical of women as they age, and is one of the reasons that I enjoy women in that 18-25 bracket. They are at their sexual peak and giving it away for free – who am I to pass up steak? I will never say anything bad about young women who are exploring their sexual nature – I enjoy them too much for that. Thank heavens there are always young ones coming up through the ranks, as the older ones go down the inevitable slide.

    Of course, when they hit the wall, that’s when all the screeching starts, and blaming men for “taking advantage of them.” Fortunately, as a man, I don’t have to deal with that.

  • Hope

    INTJ, babies are all pretty similar looking. They’re cute so we put up with them. :p

    Susan, thank you! Yes he is doing well. I’m glad we got a nice camera (that does indoor and low lighting well) to capture all of his weird and interesting expressions.

    Sai, newborns don’t have good muscle control. They are kind of spastic, eyes look in different directions, so the winking just sort of happens.

  • Sai

    @Hope
    You must have really good timing and a nice camera then.

  • Zanana

    I’m pretty sure Clark-Flory’s not saying she never had an orgasm, just that she’s faked it during hook-ups. Agree with Abbot’s link – this whole thing isn’t black-and-white. Not every revelation about personal boundaries is a cautionary tale.

    Susan, you’re describing your impulse while reading one of her articles as “maternal concern”. What are you concerned about? I think it actually speaks to a terribly negative view of male sexuality when people think it’s something dangerous that women need to be protected from.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zanana

      TCF doesn’t need to be protected from male sexuality, she needs to be protected from her self-objectification. Men are just the props in her search for validation. It’s not working.

  • Plain Jane

    zanana,
    ” I think it actually speaks to a terribly negative view of male sexuality when people think it’s something dangerous that women need to be protected from.”

    Whether its dangerous or not depends on the individual male.

    Zanana means harem, by the way. Or the place where women are cloistered together away from society. What does that say about your choice of moniker?

    ;)

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  • Underdog

    “I was at a neighborhood bar when in walked a man that I’d slept with before — virtually speaking. We had traded intimacies without ever having met.”

    This made me sad. Is this really how girls feel when they jerk off to porn? Jesus. I’ve never beat off to a porn star then tell myself I’ve “slept with her virtually” or that we’ve “traded intimacies without ever having met”, I just saw it as busting one out to some moving pictures. God only knows how girls feel about actual, physical sex.

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    This really is such a sad story – I’ve known many girls in my life who’ve made this their stated position too, & I’d always taken them at their word that they were enjoying themselves & doing what they wanted. Now I wonder how much of that was real, & how some of them would view their own actions looking back.

    Even as a child it always really upset me thinking that there were women in the world who didn’t enjoy sex, who just endured it for some other reason. It felt such a terrible shame. As I get older I see how there tend to be a wider set of imperatives for that behaviour in women (status, hypergamy, community, belonging, biological craving for children, ‘keeping your man’, etc..), but still, as J said earlier, “It’s the faking it that gets me. Why fake it? It just trains men to be bad lovers.”

  • Yan

    Seriously… Maybe women never learn, because they simply romanticize (or hamsterize) their screw ups instead of owning them, and so they teach the next generation to go ahead and screw up too, and so on. “The husband will take advantage of her extensive sexual experience.” Only feminist chumps would buy that, to look “modern and liberal”, because:

    – Most men don’t want leftovers of cads;
    – Her beauty and fertility will decay soon – and clog herself of hormones and plastic surgery will only make her body as artificial as her personality.
    – She can dupe a non-feminist victim into accept her as a “decent” woman, but that would show her blatant lack of moral integrity – and that’s NOT a good trait to have in a wife (or husband).

    I pity her the same way I pity a man who willingly use and sell cocaine.