A reader posted a graphic in the forum that really caught my eye:
Using a movie that morphs a very masculine male face (frame 1 of 700) into an androgynous face, the facial pictures and vertical lines indicate the mean location of participants’ dominant male (DOM), short-term mate (STM), long-term mate (LTM), average male (AVM) and androgynous face (AND) selections, with respect to experimentally assigned personality traits.
F1 (‘Friend’ factor) is composed of positive attributes such as sensitive, helpful and trustworthy.
F3 (‘Enemy’ factor) consists of undesirable attributes like selfish, controlling and threatening.
The ‘Lover’ factor (F2) includes sexually exciting, supportive and healthy.
The STM selection appears to be the best ‘good-genes’ choice (Lover factor), while avoiding the negative traits associated with high degrees of masculinity (Enemy factor). The LTM selection appears to trade off some ‘good genes’ attributes in favor of those required for a good friend and good father (included in F1).
This is very much in keeping with other studies I’ve covered, which explore the tradeoff female brains continuously evaluate to get the right balance of traits for mating success. Obviously, success can only be measured against a particular strategy – the woman looking for a fling is going to seek a different set of traits than a woman seeking a life partner.
Recently, a reader asked what percentage of women are unrestricted in their sociosexuality. (Translation: How many women actually prefer casual sex?) Though I have not been able to find any data on the distribution of SOI (Sociosexual Inventory) scores in the population, the study that published the above graphic addresses a similar question.
In Mate choice decisions: the role of facial beauty (Johnston, 2006), researchers evaluated female mating preferences in relation to their 2D:4D digit ratios. For those unfamiliar with this science, the ratio of the length of the index finger to the ring finger has been shown to correlate with a wide variety of abilities and preferences in both men and women. The ratio is a reliable indicator of the level of exposure to testosterone in utero. At 14 weeks gestation, when digit development occurs, the balance of androgen to estrogen signaling determines relative finger length. (There is no correlation to hormone levels in adults, this is strictly a prenatal occurrence.)
Lower ratios indicate more exposure to testosterone. Here we do have some information about the distribution of ratios in the population:
| 2D:4D Ratios | Females | Males |
| Mean | .965 | .947 |
| Standard deviation | .026 | .029 |
| 10th percentile | .932 | .910 |
| 90th percentile | .998 | .984 |
So what does it mean to have a low ratio if you are a woman? Females with a low 2D:4D ratio relative to other women:
1. Are psychologically de-feminized, as indicated by a low score on the Bem Sex Role Inventory.
2. Are physiologically de-feminized, as indicated by less regular menstrual cycles.
3. Report poor bonding to fathers.
4. Report shorter intimate relationships with males.
5. Prefer more masculine faces at ovulation and for long-term relationships.
6. Like the male pheromone 4,16 – androstadien – 3 – 01. (Christmas gift idea for your sluttiest friends!)
7. Are promiscuous, scoring high for “unrestricted” sociosexuality on the SOI.
8. Have an impaired resistance to parasites.
9. Feel more sexual attraction for facial androgen markers in males.
10. Resist bonding to partners.
11. Have more risk-loving preferences.
12. Have more athletic potential.
13. Have lower verbal fluency, and lower levels of emotional behavior.
14. Are more likely to be left-handed.
15. Are more likely to experience same-sex attraction.
In contrast, women with high ratios (more prenatal exposure to estrogen) tend to:
- Look stereotypically female: fuller lips, small jaw, large eyes.
- Bond well to males
- Be sexually reserved
- Seek less masculinized faces during ovulation and for long-term relationships
The exact prenatal mechanism is still not understood, but the ratio is estimated to be 66% heritable. It has been observed that mothers with a high waist-to-hip ratio give birth to daughters with a low D2:D4 ratio. I also wonder about fathers, especially as poor bonding is a “tell.” Do DOMs or STMs, aka cads, produce daughters with a greater male orientation?
Obviously, genes do not tell our life’s story in advance, but they do stack the deck. The good news is that women who fit this profile probably wouldn’t have it any other way.
If you’re a guy, you might want to measure her fingers while she’s sleeping. :-/
If you’re a woman with a high ratio, the message is clear:
You are not cut out for casual sex. Leave that to the long fingered vulgarians.
{ 254 comments… read them below or add one }
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Is interesting because my fingers length do show a slight leaning towards Testosterone and my father is an Alpha, but my mom had the desire waist ratio that I inherited while I still have an athletic strong built (I am almost a foot taller than the median Dominican woman). So I’m right in the middle with about half of the promiscuous traits. Maybe the tendency is to complement traits when mating? and since I’m kind of androgynous and hubby looks a lot like his mom I’m attracted to a similar mixed built. You had seen my hubby and I pics Susan do we look complementary in that way? Just curious.
The last photo does not look androgynous, he just looks very young. And he’s the best looking out of everyone, imo.
I definitely don’t have long fingers – and don’t get me started on the length of my toes (I basically don’t have them they’re so short and stubby).
Yes I would say so!
I have a high ratio, but I was a bit surprised, I thought it might be on the lower side, because I too have some of those traits. And everyone here knows I tried ONSs a few times in my 20s. I think I’m a bit of a mix, and my husband is probably the LTM guy on the chart – so again, a mix of traits.
Of course, we don’t have exact profiles for each finger length. My guess is that Tracy Clark Flory, for example, has a higher ratio than a Marcotte or Friedman. I think people behave in ways that are not authentic, mostly due to cultural pressure. OTOH, a woman who’s seriously down for a string of flings and likes it is probably wired that way, for real.
The important thing is to recognize how you’re made and respect it. If I were 22 and learned I had a high ratio, I would think carefully about what I wanted. If I had a tendency toward risky behavior but wanted to marry and have a family, I would work hard to discipline myself and act in accordance with those long-term objectives, or at least try.
“Of course, we don’t have exact profiles for each finger length. My guess is that Tracy Clark Flory, for example, has a higher ratio than a Marcotte or Friedman. ”
OK, since you brought her up, I want to ask again, if TCF who is average looking at best, can openly and in detail brag about her extremely raunchy sexcapades on the world wide web with no sense of shame and STILL land a better-looking-than-she-is husband who is perfectly ok with being globally known as the man that smilingly put a ring on THAT, then how does anyone here possibly think any type of “slut shaming” will work on average or above looking average women?
So when the DOMs and STMs who have pictorial memories snicker at you while you’re with her at the mall you, the LTM or worse, should have known better.
The deadly combination is the girl who is outwardly very feminine in appearance and behavior yet is able to have promiscuous sex with little emotional attachment. Manosphere slut-aversion notwithstanding, most men, if they are lucky enough to hook up with such a woman, can’t seem to get enough and desperately want to lock her down. I know one very beautiful girl like this; she’s told me point blank that she doesn’t have “female emotions”- and I am certain she means it. My friends and I find it fascinating to observe her behavior- from a distance. For reasons that should be obvious, she doesn’t have very many close female friends.
The DOM and STM may be the outward side effect of those traits shown in the chart. They have the markers. Decades ago it gave them an edge with women. Today they will be continually swamped and that serves to push up their already naturally intense egos. With epigenetic changes on top of that. their offspring are going to be quite the harem leaders.
@Anacaona,
I just wikipediad avg female Dominican height: 5′ 1.5″ (self-reported) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
So you are tall.
Cool.
I just measured my d2:d4 ratio 3 different ways and got consistent results, a ratio of ~0.93. Not sure where my photo would fall but I guess somewhere in the STM to LTM
Hmmm…maybe guys looking for flings should ask women if they like sports, are left-handed and to give their ring finger:index finger ratios. Also see how verbose they are with the written word.
It’ll be better for all of us.
I’d better pay more attention to that waist-to-hip ratio.
@INTJ
Yes, stay away from the 2:1 waist-to-hip chicks!
So you are tall.
Cool.
I’m 5′ 8″…those numbers are a bit inflated even my mother at 5′ 4 was towering pretty much every woman at work or in the neigborhood and I was one of the tallest models in my agency. In here I’m just average a bit taller by comparison.
Heh this seems like a good frame for men to try their openings with girls.
Instead of palm reading (being there, done that) you can start with the “Mmm according to your finger length you are a strong independent woman or you are shy, feminine and reserved”
I think that at least will buy you five seconds more worth of talk…Maybe.
I have had a young and quite promiscuous woman say that to me as well. What she said was, “I don’t have many emotions.” Now I’m wondering how I can get a look at her fingers…
I like sports and I’m left handed! I was also sort of a tomboy growing up, not very female. My ratio is an even 1.0.
Obviously, the correlation is not 1.0.
Don’t forget – it’s her mother’s! (though it may hold true for the girl as well)
Susan:
You do realize, don’t you, that this validates all the evo psych stuff Roissy talked about in some of his earlier posts from 07 to 09? 2D:4D ratios, facial structures, high T girls — we have seen it all before at Chateau Renegade Roissy Heartiste, haven’t we?
That is a great opener! I can also imagine some rather hilarious responses and conversations.
*hides hands*
“I would work hard to discipline myself and act in accordance with those long-term objectives, or at least try.”
Yes, this is good.
Indeed we have! Relevant quotes:
When they have kids with these alpha skittles men — and it’s the low class Idiocratic brood sows who are having more kids than the play-by-the-rules plush beta herbs — the thug genes are passed on and their sons are born with their fists already swinging or holding a beer and their daughters are born with lantern jaws and a propensity to fuck with piston-like efficiency.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/the-masculinization-of-the-western-white-female/
Well, besides voting for socialist diaper changers, you get a bunch of chicks chasing lantern-jawed alpha males and having illegitimate children by them, leading inexorably to future generations of more masculine daughters being raised by ever more feminine beta hubbies.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/attack-of-the-manjaws/
Did you think I hated Roissy? No way, I think he’s brilliant and right a lot of the time.
“You are not cut out for casual sex.”
– which is probably most of you women. Think about getting married.
“Leave that (casual sex) to the long fingered vulgarians.”
– which is only a few of you. Skip marriage.
The correlation between testosterone/estrogen and sex preferences must be even bigger than correlation between finger ratios and sex preferences. This is because finger ratio doesn’t correlate perfectly to testosterone/estrogen ratio you have now, it only correlates that what you had in the womb. The upshot of all this is that testosterone/estrogen ratio is probably even more important than what this study indicates.
Suzan.
I do believe I must change my gravatar picture.
@GudEnuf
I don’t think that current hormone levels are predictive of much for either sex. A man’s appearance, reflecting T levels during puberty, are certainly relevant. And T levels can and do change – though I have never heard that changes either preferences or how the male is perceived. It certainly might change how he feels about himself, which could obviously trickle down.
The research on testosterone levels in women in very uneven. No consensus there. The prenatal exposure research, on the other hand (no pun), is solid.
@deti
+1
It’s nice to be able to +1 Deti
@Marellus
Why is that?
@ SW
Way ahead of you. I was thinking of the kids. I’d prefer any daughters I have to be socio-sexually restricted.
“leading inexorably to future generations of more masculine daughters ”
There seems to be a trend toward actresses and models with stronger jaws and chins, like Gisele and Olivia Wilde. My husband and I joke that in half the movies we see, the actresses have stronger jawlines than the men.
I wonder if a very feminine woman with a tiny chin like Elizabeth Taylor could make it in the movies today.
@ Maggie
“I wonder if a very feminine woman with a tiny chin like Elizabeth Taylor could make it in the movies today.”
Nope, she’d be replaced with Gisele Bundchen, who has a little Sarah Jessica Parker goin on, or Heidi Klum, who looks like your standard lesbian gym teacher. But hey, t.v. says they are “hot” now, so they are hot.
@ Maggie, Ion
All of those actresses look like transvestites. Especially Sarah Jessica Parker.
@INTJ
+1
SOMEBODY HAD TO SAY IT~
The DOM looks criminal to me. My DH is somewhere between STM and LTM in appearance (big brown eyes, square jaw, heavy beard), but some of that may be ethnicity. My index finger is about 1/4 longer than my ring finger, and I have an hour glass figure and an oval face.
@ Maggie
… Olivia Wilde …
I remember seeing Olivia Wilde play a newer supporting character on House, and that was about it. I did not think much about her. Then, one day, I am at the supermarket and, bam, she is on the cover of every god damn magazine.
I later found out she pulled an Aniston*
* An Aniston is when some female actress gets divorced and then starts appearing on every TV show and magazine cover.
I just calculated my 2D:4D digit ratios. This is what I found.
Left hand: 1.0
Right hand: 1.005
Oh yeah! 90th percentile baby!
I also calculated my waist to hip ratio again (I haven’t done it in a while). It came out to be 0.7 still.
Hmmmm.
Sassy, did you ever read my comment to you? Its on some recent thread. Forget which one now.
Susan, you know darn well what I wrote about Roissy is true. I’m surprised someone as well read and cultured as you finds his mediocre ramblings “brilliant”.
Frankly I think its a tactic. Like, your letting him eat cake or something.
@Maggie
Standards of beauty have become much more androgynous. Here is a fascinating website on the topic:
Feminine Beauty: Feminine vs. Masculine
@J
I agree, the DOM is scary! My personal fave is the LTM. I wondered about something – how well is the AND going to do even with Game? Game is the addition of DOM/STM behaviors, but will that read correctly with an AND face? I don’t know the answer to this question, but it occurs to me that where a guy starts out wrt secondary sexual characteristics and T levels may have an effect on outcomes with Game.
You sound like a very feminine woman
Susan,
I am curious which one you think I am closest to?
I don’t know what this means. I have repeatedly stated the following things about Roissy.
1. I think he is a very gifted writer and wordsmith. Even when I hate what he says I admire his craft and often laugh out loud at his prose.
2. He is right about a great deal. He is very perceptive. I believe he is hyperbolic, often satirical, but he is anything but mediocre.
3. I think he is good looking. Hot, in fact. He has a bit of vulnerability in his looks that I find extremely appealing. As proof of this, I’ve shared that when my daughter went to DC for a summer internship three years ago, I sat her down and showed her his photo, saying, “Do not engage with this man under any circumstances.” I think his Game is that tight, a 25 year age difference notwithstanding.
4. He is persuasive and influential. I respect that. Most Game bloggers pale in comparison.
@ Plain Jane
I did try to find your comment, but I didn’t have any luck.
@Mike C
I would slot you in between STM and LTM. Plenty of masculine secondary sex characteristics, but also an agreeable face, with considerable sensitivity around the eyes. This raises your “friend” and “lover” factors and decreases your “enemy” factor. Just my .02, I’m obviously no expert.
Does that match with how you see yourself?
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2012/04/finger-length-not-affected-by-fetal-testosterone/1#.UHeVQsXR5Bk
Some recent data has been debunking the digit ratio hypothesis.
“My personal fave is the LTM.”
Mine too, Susan.
@SW
You pose an interesting question regarding the AND face. PJ had a point when she said he looks like a kid. That is the sweet face of a boy on the cusp of puberty, and most women will not find that sexy. Clumsily executed game moves will make him look silly and emphasize his youth, femininity and inexperience. OTOH, Roissy says contrast is king. Tight game and a baby face might intrigue some women.
I’m feminine enough, I think. On the more masculine side, I have big shoulders for a woman of my petite height, a strongish nose and Mediterrean arm/leg hair. I’m earthy-looking, like a Mediterrean peasant, not delicate.
Sassy6519 October 11, 2012 at 11:56 pm
@ Plain Jane
I did try to find your comment, but I didn’t have any luck.
————————————–
That’s the problem with moderation. Susan? I’m looking at you
Basically I reiterated what you said about breaking up with your boyfriend because of “red flags” and “lack of common interests”.
Wanted to ask you how that played out because I had an experience of some things that were said that while I didn’t put the breakers on, definitely caused my brain to take note and store for a later date. Later I found out the entire time the guy was FAKING having common interests with me. He researched what I was about, my culture, lifestyle, values, religion, values, etc, and then mirrored that. Once we got a few months in, he began showing his true personality, interests, culture, lifestyle, etc, but figured he had me hooked by then.
Just wondering if it was something similar or how it played out with you. Truth be told I did emotionally attach, even after the big revelation, but it was a no go because culture, lifestyle, values and spirituality was all off kilter.
@Kathy, SW
If your could either square off LTM’s jaw just a little or widen STM’s eyes, they both be great. As it is, TM could look a bit kinder and LTM could look a little stronger and less like DOM could kill him. I also want him to look smart enough to trick DOM in a fight, but not mean enough to outright kill him in a nasty way.
“1. I think he is a very gifted writer and wordsmith. Even when I hate what he says I admire his craft and often laugh out loud at his prose. ”
I’m surprised to hear you, a thespian, say this. His use of antiquated English is often awkward and just plain wrong and his metaphors are off.
Plus again, his obsession with “thugs”. The US population simply is not comprised of a large number of thugs, much less “thugs” impregnating women like there’s no tomorrow, that too the demographic of women that would be in Roissy’s DC social circles, even if he were still young.
I’ve already said I think he looks like the lizard in the Geico commercials and I’ve not yet read anything of his that convinces me he actually does pick up on the regular.
Hmm…
1:1 ratio both left and right hand.
I have a higher waist to hip ratio, at around the .8 range. But I’m also broader in the shoulders, the apple shape.
Definitely full lips and big eyes. Jaw, small or not? It seems medium to me.
Mr. PVW’s looks seem closer to the STM range.
@Suzan.
Why ? Some woman told me that I have a boyish baby-face. And I get winked at, on dating sites, by most disagreeable women, WHILE I read their profiles. I have a mind to just say I’m a journalist from The North Korean Agricultural Ministry, and would they mind posing for pictures stoking the boilers of their brand new Steam Tractors …
2D:HD = .916.
The last photo does not look androgynous, he just looks very young. And he’s the best looking out of everyone, imo.
That’s because you’re much better suited for lesbian feminism or molesting junior high school students than relationships with adult men. Run off with Manboobz already, you’d be a lot happier with your own species.
“Standards of beauty have become much more androgynous. Here is a fascinating website on the topic”
Thanks for posting, Susan. Even Angelina Jolie is kind of “butch” looking, my lesbian friends LOVE her (and I know several friends who would break being straight for her, I probably would lol)
I also think there is times when beauty fluctuates and stars are “gods” (Liz taylor, Paul Newman) to times when we get people who are more regular looking (Reese Witherspoon, Hugh Grant).
Wow, the morphing faces are interesting!
While I can objectively acknowledge the DOM guy is attractive, to me I think the guys in the middle range are the most attractive (STR, LTR, AVM). Just on looks alone, I would the LTR guy has a good relationship prospect.
IRL, I think my bf would be AVM because his jawline is closer to that then LTR guy.
The AND guy is not my cup of tea! He looks too femme and pings my gaydar (he looks at least bi), so for me it’s a turn off regardless of his true orientation. (OTOH, I have a friend who is into metrosexual and bi men!)
VD – Your comment to PJ was rather harsh. We all have our own preferences on who we find attractive. Some women like femme men and others are not attracted to more masculine looking men. And women have varied preferences on features like strong jaws and body hair – heck, Mike C’s fiance gets him to shave his chest hair!
Last time I checked women who are sexually & romantically attracted to men aren’t lesbians. Lesbians are solely attracted to other women.
We all have our own preferences on who we find attractive.
To be sure. The point is that Plain Jane openly prefers juvenile boys who look like women to normal adult men. And it is impossible to be too harsh on anyone who talks up the moronic Manboobz and describes Roissy’s writings as “mediocre ramblings”.
Last time I checked women who are sexually & romantically attracted to men aren’t lesbians. Lesbians are solely attracted to other women.
I very much doubt that you checked anything at all. By your definition, virtually no lesbians exist. “an Australian study found that 93 percent of lesbians reported having had sex with men, and lesbians were 4.5 times more likely than heterosexual women to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners.” Even The Advocate reports that 77% of self-identified lesbians have had male sex partners.
Why was the fourth man called ‘the average male’? Is this supposed to be where the majority of us fall on the bell curve? If this is true, then it is no wonder 70-80% of men are considered ‘below average’ by the women at OK Cupid.
I sometimes wonder who composes the 20% promiscuity communities. If it is all the top quintile males and significant minorities of the second-, third-, and fourth-quintile females, than that would lead to a significant dislocation in the SMP.
@Marellus
I wouldn’t say that. But I would say that you have a look that I associate with high intelligence and verbal fluency. This is the same impression I had of my husband when I first saw him.
I like the hat – I can almost see you as a tragic Irish figure who writes plays.
@VD
Ha! 10th percentile, exactly where I would have pegged you.
My experience with promiscuous women: manjaw, broad shoulders, low intelligence, lower-class, drug user.
The others range all over the map but mostly have one thing in common: problems with their fathers. Sometimes, the fathers did bad things and the mothers pretended they didn’t notice.
The only ones I’ve seen “hardwired” at the manjaw broad-shouldered lower-class ones.
When you start blaming everything on nature, that opens up a very large can of worms, such as “I was born a pedophile, and adult-child relationships are normal and healthy and the child actually enjoys them.”
@MCB
Good question, I wondered that too. I suspect it’s a somewhat arbitrary distinction made by the researchers, rather than a representation of the average T level in the male population.
I wonder a lot about this too – it’s very difficult to get data on. I don’t think this is the case though. I do think it’s common for a very promiscuous guy to stoop 2 points or so, maybe even 3-4 if he’s drunk enough, but there are plenty of attractive women who are promiscuous. For example, the BU hockey team is not going to entertain a group of unattractive women as their regular groupies.
My own sense is that the biggest losers in the SMP include the most attractive women who are not promiscuous, and the men in the third and fourth quintiles. That’s where most of the dislocation is, I think.
One caveat: it’s very hard to talk about the 1-10 SMV scale for both sexes because the standards are different, based on males being more visual. In my limited experience, I have observed that a lot of frat guys, including ones who do very well with women, are not physically attractive. They’ve got status, and probably off-the-charts dominance, which serves them well.
@Bob Wallace
I agree this is tricky. It’s also the Wild West – we’re going to be confronting some very difficult questions as we learn more about the human genome. I think it’s important to remember that while we are animals, we also have the capacity to make informed choice using higher order thinking.
It’s pretty clear that the Dark Triad traits evolved as a mating strategy. If it wasn’t effective, we wouldn’t see it in the male population. If people are educated about these traits and tendencies, they can make informed decisions about who to avoid.
I don’t support making excuses for bad behavior that’s influenced by genes, I believe in judging people based on their actions, and distancing myself accordingly when necessary.
”That’s because you’re much better suited for lesbian feminism or molesting junior high school students than relationships with adult men. Run off with Manboobz already, you’d be a lot happier with your own species.”
You sure do make ”Game” worthy of respect. Then again, aren’t you the guy who believes ”dominance” and ”self-confidence” is what makes most women attracted to a guy? Seems like you’ve been watching too many John Wayne movies, buddy.
Little secret: its hollywood.
Plus, you know those feminized-looking guys who also have matching feminized personalities, like James Dean, Robert Pattinson, Leonardo Di Caprio, Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise? They banged far more women than you’ll ever will with your illusions of personality trumping looks. Go do something useful like, read Dorian Gray.
A gay man knew far more about women and human sexuality than you, arm chair psychologist.
@ Plain Jane
Oh, okay.
He and I didn’t lack common interests. I did notice that some compatibility issues and red flags started popping up though. I figured that it would be better to cut my losses early.
Originally, he told me that he didn’t want to have children. Later, his story changed, and he admitted to wanting to have children. That’s a big compatibility issue. I don’t want children, and I don’t understand why he felt the need to lie about his desires.
I had great chemistry with him, but I also had a gut feeling that he wasn’t the right person for me. I liked him a lot, and was very attracted to him, but I never had a sense of longing for him. I don’t think I can adequately describe the confusing feelings I have about him. He seems right for me, but I also feel like something is missing. I don’t know what it is.
You sure do make ”Game” worthy of respect. Then again, aren’t you the guy who believes ”dominance” and ”self-confidence” is what makes most women attracted to a guy? Seems like you’ve been watching too many John Wayne movies, buddy. Plus, you know those feminized-looking guys who also have matching feminized personalities, like James Dean, Robert Pattinson, Leonardo Di Caprio, Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise? They banged far more women than you’ll ever will with your illusions of personality trumping looks.
You must have me confused with someone else. Dominance is certainly an attraction factor, but so is fame, money, power, status, and other elements that go into socio-sexual rank. I also find it amusing that 40 percent of the men you claim to have banged copious women are not even straight. Now, Leonardo I’ll certainly give you, but almost any player will have done better than Dean, Pattinson, Pitt, and Cruise combined. Having 15 year-old girls mooning over your picture in Tiger Beat or People is not indicative of actually having sex with a woman.
Susan – OK, perhaps I’m being particularly thick, but I did the measurements and I’m .95, which looks like pretty close the the “mean” on the chart. So what exactly does this indicate in relation to the chart above?
From what I gather, it means that if I had a face more towards the DOM end, I would be the “enemy”, but if my face it between LTM and AVG it puts me at the “friend” and “lover” category at the exact same place. Is that to say that women want to be my friend as often as they might consider me a lover?
I’m new to the 2D:4D thing, and I intend to read up on it, but I don’t think I’ll have time today. Overall, I guess this means I’m pretty much average.
I feel so special…
Ugh I’m really slow today. (4 hours of sleep, YEAH for another bout of insomnia!!!)
So my ratio doesn’t matter for the chart, because it would be the woman’s measurement that counts, correct?
so nothing here indicates what my ratio means to me… Guess I need to do some Googling.
@Suzan
Suzan … I’m gonna slap your butt with that hat …
The “DOM” image looks a lot like MMA fighter Roger Huerta.
Re: Dark Triad. My erudite friend Kevin Dutton has a new book out called “The Wisdom of Psychopaths” that should provide for some entertaining, pleasant bedside reading. Kev considers how certain psychopathic traits are advantageously suited to certain professions—he has interviewed military special warfare operators (British SAS and SBS) and City of London traders, to name a few.
To be frank, the line between the high-functioning, intelligent psychopath and the dopamine-seeking, nonjudgmental Explorer of the Fisher pantheon starts to grow hazy at times. The descriptions of the two personalities can be eerily similar…
@Susan
“Standards of beauty have become much more androgynous. Here is a fascinating website on the topic:”
Correction:
Homosexual standards of beauty have become standard. The dimensions of the perfect women have not changed in the last 100 years.
The guys who like those dimensions just don’t run fashion shows.
@Lokland
I agree, but it seems to have influenced straight men’s opinions too. The modern “perfect woman” (a cross between a woman and a teenage boy) is not just a runway model – girls like Gisele are featured in GQ and Maxim all the time. The girl-teenage boy (with narrow hips, large gap between her thighs, perhaps with breast implants) is very common in porn and men’s magazines.
Modern actresses like Eva Mendes and Keira Knightley have extremely masculine faces, yet I hear men describe them as ‘beautiful’ all the time (I do actually think Keira is beautiful, but in spite of her massive jawline).
I can’t help but think of Sophia Loren saying “Sex appeal is 50% what you’ve got and 50% what people think you’ve got”. Media can create a hype around a woman and it’s not just women buying into it.
Wow, there’s definitely something to finger lengths. I was, no lie, exactlu what I was thinking about, for some random reason, when I was watching the hand gestures a girl I know when she was talking casual sex.
BF’s features are like STM. More masculine than some guys I’ve dated, for sure! AND boy looks like he is 11yo. No thanks.
My preferences have changed somewhat over the years. Not greatly, but there has been a change for sure!
My finger length ratio is 0.86.
Did I do this right? Lol
Btw, sorry your relationship didn’t work out, Sassy.
@Cooper
Did she have a very short pointer or long ringer finger? Or both?
@SW
Ha, kinda doubt it. If so, the theory is obviously garbage. Measure from the wrinkle where the finger meets the hand to the end of the fingertip. (Index finger is the numerator.)
“Originally, he told me that he didn’t want to have children. Later, his story changed, and he admitted to wanting to have children. That’s a big compatibility issue. I don’t want children, and I don’t understand why he felt the need to lie about his desires.”
This was part of my situation also, more than once, in fact. But the particular guy I mentioned above was very much a “dad” type who nonetheless acted like he wasn’t in order to attract me. Later I found out he thought I would eventually “change” and want to marry and have kids with him. LOL. Anyway, its all good. He’s a married dad now and very happy.
Whew! I barely got away by the skin of my teeth.
You and I are outliers, Sassy. Most humans are “hard wired” to want kids.
“Thanks for posting, Susan. Even Angelina Jolie is kind of “butch” looking, my lesbian friends LOVE her (and I know several friends who would break being straight for her, I probably would lol)”
She’s bisexual herself. However I don’t see anything “butch” about her. Again, is it the jaw? Jaws are not the first feature people notice about a face, its usually eyes, then lips, then nose, unless the nose is so huge that it sticks out from a distance.
I never even though about jaw before. Probably after today I’ll start noticing. Of course there are pointy chins like Reese Witherspoon who you also mentioned. But the rest of her face is cute enough that I never noticed that either til it was pointed out to me.
“I also think there is times when beauty fluctuates and stars are “gods” (Liz taylor, Paul Newman) ”
Liz and many of the other stars from Hollywood’s Golden Era do seem to be more beautiful than our stars of today. Don’t forget that today’s stars are taking out law suits against High Definition technology because it really does make them look extremely real and ordinary.
The illusion is shattered, but its good for our own self esteem.
I am a male. I have a high finger ratio (>1). I remember being asked quite a bit in elementary school if I was a girl. But then I did get a couple of marriage proposals, so I was still long term material apparently. I thought I was over that until last year, when I dressed up as a mime during Halloween and took my sisters out. The lightning was poor and a woman mistook me for a girl. She had switched her pronouns from “he” to “she” and I gesticulated wildly at her error.
Anyway, I’m curious at the epigenetic factors that affect prenatal androgen exposure. I read somewhere that succeeding male offspring are more masculine. I was the firstborn. Is this to make the later children more competitive and therefore fend off the real (and perhaps fatal) threat of sibling rivalry. That is, does the mother send a message to her fetus to “man up” or get pushed out the nest by other siblings. The message to firstborn might be to be nice, nurture and protect the younger siblings. Or might having siblings (like my 3 sisters) suppress a more masculine development during puberty. Environment might prove to be the dominant effect. But what kind of environment?
The length of my fingers is exactly the same
Hmmmm
Haha, I figured. I was using a ruler I found in the office! XD Hmm, must go hunting for my measuring tape…
0.916 here. 2.75/3.
@Ion
“I also think there is times when beauty fluctuates and stars are “gods” (Liz taylor, Paul Newman)”
I believe you, but why/how would moviegoers get sick of looking at people like (stupid sexy) Liz Taylor?
@Susan
“I think it’s important to remember that while we are animals, we also have the capacity to make informed choice using higher order thinking.”
THIS x 1000
.892
@ P.J.
“The illusion is shattered, but its good for our own self esteem.”
Or our narcissism, and entitlement. Look at the current SMV, and then look at celebrities. I actually prefer everyone looking like gods –we are less disillusioned about our own attractiveness that way, which is humbling lol.
Angelina Jolie is VERY pretty, she is also very rough looking. There’s a kind of badassedness that comes with being “hot” . It’s her jawline and boxy muscular shape as well maybe. It is just an opinion. She is someone I’d break being straight for lol. There are several celebrities I would actually, like Nona Gaye and Rihanna or Selena when she was alive.
I think Reese Witherspoon is adorable. But Julia Roberts, Thandie Newton and Jennifer Aniston? Idk.
Replace Hugh Grant in EVERYTHING and add Henry Ian Cusick. He’s a 10 in my book.
@ HMG
“I can’t help but think of Sophia Loren saying “Sex appeal is 50% what you’ve got and 50% what people think you’ve got”. Media can create a hype around a woman and it’s not just women buying into it.”
I think it was J who said last topic how beauty, femininity (hourglass shapes for example) put women in the “for sex” category, or something to that affect. Have you ever heard of Robin Lawley? http://i.huffpost.com/gen/712100/thumbs/o-ROBYN-LAWLEY-570.jpg?4 I know men find beautiful women attractive, there’s very little required for men to “wake the snake” when it comes to women, but if men are not lining up to wife/LTR women with hourglass shapes like Sophia Loren or the girl above, and instead drool and focus on their sex appeal, these women don’t win. More androgynous looking women are definitely winning.
I don’t agree that gay men in the fashion industry have anything to do with it.If they were selecting women based on their own preferences, we’d see more muscular broad women as opposed to size zeros with long hair and makeup. Besides, hetero guys and most women don’t seem to look at high-fashion editorials, they look at the standards on T.V.
@ Sai “I believe you, but why/how would moviegoers get sick of looking at people like (stupid sexy) Liz Taylor?”
Because if I’m the average woman, I’d like to see someone who is average like me get a big flashy diamond from a guy out of my league because I “know I am destined to find him”, or anything that justifies my refusal to settle…than to see a glamorous woman I can never be kill my fantasy lol.
@ Ion
Yikes. Robyn Lawley looks pretty unappealing (I would probably pick the average college girl over her). I don’t see too much of an hourglass figure (her waist is pretty large due to stomach fat, resulting in a WHR of .76), but that isn’t the biggest problem. The big problem is that her head is soooo tiny compared to the rest of her. I had to look at some other pictures to make sure that it wasn’t photoshopped.
“resulting in a WHR of .76″
LOL fail…
Yeah, I totally admit that I understand why men say women don’t get to define attractive. I think she’s way prettier than half the models out there. Here’s a semi nude shot, it’s hard to believe she’s a .76, could be wrong?http://www.ceramictattooart.com/images/RobynLawley4.jpg
LOL, now I keep looking at her head, thanks for that.
I got the WHR from Wikipedia measurements (which I plugged into my attractiveness calculator to come up with an HB10 attractiveness of about 7 – not taking into account relative head size). From that second pic, her WHR does seem lower than 0.76, though the stomach fat at the front might make some difference.
@Bob Wallace
Have you read the “brain on trail” article I have linked once?
The proper answer is of course “Well, if you are born pedophile and you can’t do anything about it, we have to either kill you or incarcerate for a lifetime. Sorry about that.“
I have measured a few times now and my ratio is 0.916.
Am I some kind of mutant female? Yikes.
@szopen
I’d like to plus one what you said.
The solution to biological determinism is not to let everybody do what they want but only allow those who can do what is wanted breed/exist/be free.
People don’t like eugenics though.
@Ion
I’d never heard of Robin Lawley, but I think she’s very feminine and beautiful. Her WHR looks about perfect to me. Hearing a guy complain about her stomach fat is proof that male tastes have changed dramatically as a result of the culture. So gay men have altered the attraction triggers of straight men – interesting.
@Susan
“So gay men have altered the attraction triggers of straight men – interesting.”
I don’t agree. They drive the catwalk and fashion magazines though. They influence women into believing that more androgenous women are the most beautiful – they look more like young men. Like your ‘AND’ image above.
I sent you a picture, where’d you reckon that I fall on the spectrum? *covers eyes with hand*
@Poppy
I’m curious – does that low ratio correspond to the characteristics as listed? IOW, do you prefer casual sex? Bottom line, if the realization troubles you because that’s not who you think you are, then that’s not who you are.
@Just1X
Like Mike C, you have strong, masculine features. It’s awfully hard for me to judge because I “know” you both and am fond of you both. It may be that objectively you’re both in the STM range – definitely not DOM. But I throw the personality piece in and downgrade you to LTM, lol.
Somewhere in that range, though.
@Just1X
Oh, I thought you were referring to the pic you sent months ago! Just saw the new one. I love it, you look awesome! Definitely LTM. What’s your digit ratio?
@Susan
“It may be that objectively you’re both in the STM range – definitely not DOM. But I throw the personality piece in and downgrade you to LTM, lol.”
All fine by me, thanks for the feedback, I took the picture for my Skype profile today, it’s my image du jour.
STM probably opens more doors, once in, my personality should open more minds to other possibilities. LTM is who I am, assuming that it gets that far…that’s a different saga
As I’m currently ‘working’ on me, I suspect I’m headed more into STM looks. Don’t think that I have an inner ‘DOM’ though…I’m happy to say.
@Susan, that’s torn it! I assumed you meant the new one.
ho hum.
it’s an on going change, perhaps I can get to be more STM in the next few months…
0.931 – as a first born son I’m not supposed to have got the full beans (or so I read casually). I’m short but muscular, if I was 6’4″ I’d be called barrel chested, but…there you go. As an INTj I probably come across as more masculine than that…you tell me, here if you want. it’s all Just1X crack.
@Ion
“Because if I’m the average woman, I’d like to see someone who is average like me get a big flashy diamond from a guy out of my league because I “know I am destined to find him”, or anything that justifies my refusal to settle…than to see a glamorous woman I can never be kill my fantasy lol.”
Given everything else that takes place now, that makes perfect sense.
@Susan
Did you delete the BoPeep comment?
I was about to tear the first paragraph 3 new assholes….then I reloaded the page.
@Lokland
BoPeep is our new troll – he has posted here under many names at this point. He’s constantly inventing personal stories that vary with his handle. He’ll keep posting, I’ll keep deleting.
@Just1X
Listen to you! STM is your goal? Be careful what you wish for – that just means you are going to attract women like the ones I’m writing about in this post!
I really do need to write a post about authenticity.
@ Susan
“Hearing a guy complain about her stomach fat is proof that male tastes have changed dramatically as a result of the culture.”
I agree, I think that although its very clear that mens preferences fluctuate and change consistently, no man wants to believe that their preferences are regularly influenced, but they are. All our preferences, tastes, and choices are influenced on a regular basis.
I know images of Marilyn Monroe must’ve been posted ad nauseum, but here’s an image of Norma Jean that shows even though she is slender, she does have a soft stomach…
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R6bVKoqZvg8/TdKmO2OjMFI/AAAAAAAAAKg/ut1P2lmO7L0/s1600/Norma+Jean.jpg
As did Jane Russell
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qrbS4x6gSeI/TWx_86hz8zI/AAAAAAAACFI/wUBUFg7L3X0/2014360352.jpg
And Liz Taylor.
http://www.nhemesis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/ElizabethTaylor_SexEducation.jpg
Same as Robyn Lawley (who is also fairly slender, just not rigorously athletic and “ripped” like we’re used to seeing).
@ Susan
She’s definitely feminine, but not really all that attractive. Nothing has changed. There was a time when nearly all young people were skinnier than Robin Lawley. Her body fat percentage (26-27% from anthropometric calculations) is certainly above the ideal range for her age.
http://www.builtlean.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Ideal-Body-Fat-Percentage-Chart3.jpg
They need to work on their morphing method for these images. The DOM looks like he’s smiling whereas everyone else is sad. Actually, that might help him look scarier, as it gives him that creepy serial-killer smile.
STM looks, the personality is LTM, not changing that, I want an emotional connection beyond what ONS offers.
An STM face looks more striking, ergo more likely to get noticed / attention. Personality only gets a chance once you start talking. Personality is probably a better card for me (despite PJ’s latest tantrums about the UK, throwing her toys out of her pram lmao).
“My own sense is that the biggest losers in the SMP include the most attractive women who are not promiscuous”
Yes, you’ve helped me see this reality in my own experiences, both in my SMP and among the rising generation in which I work. Many alpha females are ready to return to the monogamy (it won’t be long until one can safely say “marriage”) team; the trick now will be getting the alphas and greater betas back onside too.
The manisphere, from Roissy to the MRA’s were a necessary fever to kill the infection, but it’s time now to work together on the cure. They’re increasingly outdated.
Obv manosphere – iPhone autocorrect
“Listen to you! STM is your goal? Be careful what you wish for – that just means you are going to attract women like the ones I’m writing about in this post!”
The rising generation is more comfortable with, indeed demands, more gender difference than your own. You can call it SMT if you want, but the fact is it is more masculine, as Sai’s figure is more feminine. The Boomers who still dominate the culture, and those following their lead, have given her many negative messages in their lust for androgyny, but that’s unlikely to be what the best men in her SMP actually find attractive.
@Susan
“He’ll keep posting, I’ll keep deleting.”
But, but, bu….waaaaaaaaahhh.
That post was literally stocked to the brim with false advertising in regards to eugenics/genetic engineering, I probably would have enjoyed ripping that apart more than se… nvm.
Waaaaaahhhhhhhh.
PS I’m dead serious. I was actually excited to write my response…and…and…you ruined it. (insert crying emoticon that I don’t knwo how to make)
Susan, do you (or does a reader) have a link to the actual study that the facial-preferences chart appeared in, or at least to the dinosaur-media bowdlerized version of same?
Ion,
“More androgynous looking women are definitely winning”
I’m unconvinced this true, especially going forward. Why does it seem like chicks are digging jerks? They’re selecting for more masculine traits. Why do sluts get wifed up? Men are selecting for the feminine.
He/she who has the gold makes the rules, so the Boomers are still pushing their androgynous norms and the rule-followers are doing what they do, but the natives are restless.
Didn’t really know where to post this but it sure is awesome:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/opinion/global/chinas-leftover-women.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
@Susan
“I really do need to write a post about authenticity.”
Yeah, I’ve heard that if you can fake that, you’ve got it made…
(old joke, but a good one(?YMMV))
And more bad news for PJ
“Americans Are Barmy Over Britishisms”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/fashion/americans-are-barmy-over-britishisms.html
nay probs with that, cheers me dears
Robin Lawley seems beautiful to me and not too fat though losing 10 lbs would make her even more enticing.
Wow, and I thought I was picky but INTJ doesn’t like this hotty? lol No dig at you INTJ, just a bit baffled since I think she’s like an 8.5 or 9 in the 2 pictures and usually I’m the one IRL to give women about 0.5 or 1 point less in looks than other guys I know.
I’m more of face guy and in the picture posted by INTJ I’d give her face about a 9 (but that’s probably higher than her real-life facial beauty due to photo editing and how she looks in the photo is the issue for discussion right now, in fact I’ve found other photos where she isn’t as pretty as in these 2 pictures but I’m just going on them to not muddy the waters):
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/712100/thumbs/o-ROBYN-LAWLEY-570.jpg?4
In the photo Ion posted I don’t see her having flabby arms, thighs or midsection at all–no ripples or folds–so I don’t see her as being too fat at all though I can imagine she’d look even better losing 10 lbs of fat (just basing this on these 2 picture and not others where she may have gained weight):
http://www.ceramictattooart.com/images/RobynLawley4.jpg
Compared to the fat rolls and ripples that many women have she has nothing to worry about in terms of looks, IMO. I’m definitely not a chubby chaser and I would completely date someone of her looks in these 2 pics, and very happily–and the relatively large boobs are nice too.
The head looks small but she is 6′ 2″ so maybe head size is somewhat independent of body size? Some short women look like they have larger heads (like Elaine in Seinfeld lol).
@Escoffier
Enjoyed the article.
See I’m the opposite of you guys (@Hans, INTJ). As far as Robin Lawley is concerned her body looks good to me. I prefer a woman’s body to appear “soft” not all muscle-y… in fact if I had a choice between a woman with a 6 pack and a little bit of a belly, I’d take the belly every time.
@Escoffier, as per the aarticle, somehow I thought China wasn’t facing a problem of unmarried women, but of unmarried men, that with the one-child policy and more families favoring boys as a result, not enough wives, so women have lots of choices. Yet I see now, the two can coexist; plenty of women, and the men are eager for them, but they won’t settle down. But they sure do a lot of shaming; we aren’t there….yet.
Um, what? I don’t see how you get 26% body fat? Based on that chart you cite, 24% is in the ideal range.
In any case, she’s famous and men like seeing her naked, so I guess your concerns about her health are unlikely to alarm her.
@Lokland
Haha, sorry to deprive you of writing and myself of reading it! He is such a knucklehead.
@david foster
I linked to it in the article, but here it is again:
http://119.93.223.179/ScienceDirect/Cognitive%20Sciences/10-01/sdarticle_007.pdf
@Just1X
I love it – the star-spangling burst of Anglophonia.
The blog looks like “good fun”
http://britishisms.wordpress.com/
@Society’s Disposable Son
Just to clarify, I think that I would be in the middle of you and INTJ, you liking a bit more fat than me and INTJ liking less than me. I would be totally happy with her as she is. She is 6′ 2″ so I don’t think losing 10 lbs wouldn’t make her look muscle-y…maybe I just want her to lose 5 lbs to give a bit better HWR.
That said, I would still be attracted enough to her if she put on 10 more lbs.
Hell, I’d still take her if she put on 15 more but beyond that would start to make my fat-o-meter growl.
Hansolo & INTJ
“lol No dig at you INTJ, just a bit baffled since I think she’s like an 8.5 ”
lol wait…
Robyn isn’t a 10? Just so we’re clear, a 15 lbs weight loss (all her T&A basically) would make her pretty close to your standard “gay male” fashion droid/model.
If, not even she is a ten, then who is? And who is a 5, and the bare minimum you’d be attracted to? Do you have examples?
I.e. the 10 I mentioned (henry isaac cusick) is at least somewhere close to your average male (but wayyy sexier), and he is also pretty standard of the type of guys that hit on me who I am also attracted to. Perhaps if people selected non-celebrities, like links to online dating pics they’ve seen (since those are anonymous), but not sure if that is allowed.
I ask because if Robyn is an 8, then a 7 is not in the average male’s league (probably not even if she gained 30 lbs). If the bar is set higher than Robyn for slightly above average, it also explains why men on the ‘nets fail to find “average looking women” desirable.
@ INTJ
“Her body fat percentage (26-27% from anthropometric calculations) is certainly above the ideal range for her age.”
FYI George Bush is also considered above BMI guidelines..http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/28/weekinreview/28kola.html?_r=0
Speaking of man jaws. I can’t remember any actress in New Year’s Eve who did not have one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fQLmSnymIg
@Just1X
Mother watches British comedy/drama nights on PBS. Stepfather bought “Redwall” books. Father convinced me to start watching Gordon Ramsay. I am waiting for the day I slip up and call somebody a tosser.
Now I need to find out why this is true:
O_O
>-<
O_O
X_X
(DON'T BLINK)
I’m very surprised with even the discussion with Robyn’s attractiveness. She IS a fashion model, albiet plus-size – certainly a few people found her easy on the eyes throughout her career. I acually think that her plus-size categorization slightly has to do with her height.
Regardless, 26% is not “certainly” above ideal – it is ideal. (Geez, and I thought I was overly against being fat)
For guys, (at least in their 20s) BelowAvg.(20)
For women, you simply move everything up 10%. Their ideal/average % is 20-30.
Of course the lower end of average is ideal, rather than the upper end of average.
Hmm. I must have typed over myself. In the previous comment I had mention to write
For men, BelowAvg (20)
For women, adjust #+10.
Robyn Lawley’s got child-bearing hips. VD may have been right about Sai getting a job at Victoria’s Secret today, but that ain’t the way things are heading.
Boomers gotta get paid…
@Ion
Let me clarify. I said 8.5-9, not purely 8.5. The 8.5 was partially influenced by the other images of her I googled and had in mind where she wasn’t as attractive as the 2 pics linked. Based on those 2 pics she is a 9 IMO. Upon further examination, in the lingerie pic I think her face may actually be more at the 9.5 level but her mid-section is a bit larger than ideal for me so that would put her body down a bit to an 8.5. Since I roughly give 2/3 weighting to face and 1/3 to body that would make her a 9.2 in that picture! lol Gotta stop looking at her ’cause I’m getting turned on.
So, overall, in those two pictures she is gorgeous and more than enough to STR or LTR her.
A note about what a 5, 7, or 10 means on the 1-10 scale for female looks. Some may use a 0-10 scale but I’m more used to thinking of 1-10 but for our purposes here and to make the math easier I’ll use 0-10.
It’s a bell curve (Gaussian distribution
) where 5 would be the mean, median, and mode. How accurate is it to assume that curve for the values that males would give females is debatable but probably good enough. See this picture to visualize it and see the percentile numbers of how many are less than a given value.
http://concordspedpac.org/Bell-curve-ss.htm
We have to agree on what age range we include. All females over 14? Over 18? Under 65? Under 45? I don’t know the answer to this…
First off, in my books a 10 is the closest thing to perfection we can expect this side of heaven. However, I ease that just slightly so that there are some that exist. Maybe she would be a 1 in a 1,000 or 10,000 woman 99.9th or 99.99th percentile. Some examples of 9.5-10 for me would be Mindy Vega, Anne Hathaway, Penelope Cruz, Alessandra Ambrosio (others can have their preferences but these are mine so let’s not argue that).
My point is that there are 10′s or near 10′s that do exist.
For me a 9 is gorgeous but with a few things that take her down from the 9.5-10 level
8 is very pretty and gets no complaints at all about her looks
7 is quite cute
6 is average with a dash of cuteness
5 is average
4 is average with a dash of ugliness, lol (ugly-side counterpart of a 6)
3 is quite unappealing (counterpart of a 7)
2 is very ugly (counterpart of an 8)
1 is extremely ugly (counterpart of a 9)
0 is extremely hideous (counterpart of a 10)
I don’t know what the actual distributions would be but if we were to include all women (older than 14 or whenever girls’ bodies have changed sufficiently from girl to woman) it might not be a bad assumption that one standard deviation would put you up to a 7 and another up to a 9. From this we can see that a 9 is not going to correspond to the 90th percentile. Rather a 9 would be a 97.7th percentile, or roughly a 1 in 50 women. Thinking back to school, church, work, bars, etc. I think this may be too generous, not sure. In high school in my class of about 30 (15 women) there were about one 9+, maybe two in the 8-8.5 range, four 7′s, four 6′s, three 5′s, and one 3 or 4. So, the bell curve of young women (say 14-36) is going to be much more to the right of the older women’s bell curve.
I don’t know what percentile of all women we should associate with a 9+, maybe it should be 1 in a 100 instead of 1 in 50.
Anyway, enough rambling on that, I don’t think Robyn is a 7 in the two pics linked. I think Bella in Twilight is an 8-8.5 while Kristen Stewart IRL is more 7-7.5 because she doesn’t adopt a good look for herself. But the guys who say she’s a 5 or 6 are totally nuts IMO although if they really believe that so be it, I think they just say that out of spite!
But who knows, to each his own.
From what I have read about China, demographically, men outnumber women by a significant margin and it gets worse the younger you go.
However, in the big coastal cities, women are not responding to the imbalance by locking down men; they are building careers and being very picky about men as the ChiCom propaganda notes. There is a crazy amount of anger over there of young men who say that women think absolutely no one is good enough for them. Also, stories of really crass behavior is common, e.g., one reads all the time about women who have explicit asset and income tests before they will date a man and many men will go along with it because they are desperate.
I’d never heard of Lawley either but she looks hot to me. Her problem is her height, 6’2″ rules out A LOT of dudes. I’m 6’4″ and even I might think twice about a giantess that tall.
Boomer androgyny at its finest.
We ain’t in that Kansas anymore.
Escoffier,
That’s where our SMP was pre-crash. I’m seeing a significant change since.
@Desiderius
ROFL at that video and the two comments at the top were classic!
@Escoffier
Are you suggesting that I should follow the example (and strategy) of the Chinese Women’s Federation?
Susan, not suggesting it but it could be where we’re headed. Interesting how the Chinese govt rather unapolagetically tells women to think about marriage and children. The US governement meanwhile tells them how to get endless grad school loans, contraceptions and abortions
@ Susan
http://www.changingshape.com/calculators/body-fat/
I guestimated neck circumference. The average for women is 14.8inches, and hers doesn’t seem much larger than average.
She’s 23, so 24% is basically the upper end of ideal for her.
You’re taking things quite personally on her behalf. I wouldn’t be so harshly critical of her if there were any chance she might get alarmed for it. Geez.
@ HanSolo
When I think about it my own size biases me against Robyn Lawley. She looks like she could smother me…
In my opinion, even though it may not count for much, I think Robyn Lawley is very attractive. She’s definitely at least an 8, in my book.
I can’t help but laugh at some of the guys here saying that she isn’t hot. Seriously?
It reminds me of this.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/210-would-not-bang
@ Ion
That’s why I give no credence to body-mass-index. Mass is primarily due to muscle, not fat, and people like George Bush have a high BMI due to muscle.
Body fat percentage, however, is a very valid metric for fitness.
@ Sassy6519
I believe I’m the only guy saying this…
I have to agree with the Julia Roberts pic in there. She’s not a 2/10, but she has manjaws, and she looks pretty old (which she is). Would not bang.
Yup, and btw, Sandra Fluke is now available for speaking engagements!
I’ve mentioned before that my brother lives in Pisa with his family. In discussing the very low Italian birthrate, he told me that Italians are very sensitive to this, because Mussolini urged Italians to have children “for the fatherland.” This is obviously a hot button topic, and no wonder.
I was kidding around, not really taking it personally. I just think that a world where she’s considered overweight is a wacky world. It’s all culture, not innate male preferences.
@Sassy
That is hilarious!
I especially love the comments on the decor.
Also, this was really funny:
Would Not Pet:
@Sassy
I loved the Luke Skywalker on there: father’s light sabre, sleeves too long… lol
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