Three years ago I wrote about a feature in the Boston Globe’s Sunday magazine called Dinner with Cupid. It’s a weekly feature – people apply to get set up on a blind date with someone who seems like a good match, and then debrief separately with the paper, issuing a letter grade and stating whether they’d like to go out again. Once in a while the couple gets on really well, they give each other an A, and say they’ve already got a second date planned. I love it when that happens. Most weeks, though, it doesn’t work out too well. Whattya gonna do? That’s life.
What surprises me, though, is the frequent rude, demeaning and dismissive criticism leveled by one party toward the other. It’s rare that both parties call the date a dud – much more common is the A vs. C- Post-Mortem. Who doles out the C-’s? You guessed it – it’s almost always the woman. To be fair, there have been some real jerks among the guys – one guy said, “The minute I saw her across the room I knew this was a no go. She is the opposite of my type.” Rude, right? It sticks out in my memory, because he was one of the few men to behave with so little empathy.
In contrast, the women often imply that the Boston Globe matched them up with someone well beneath them in SMV, and they voice their displeasure at being misled and having their time wasted. This drives me crazy, and Mr. HUS, who usually gets to the paper before I do on Sunday mornings, often warns me with a “You’re not going to be too happy with Dinner With Cupid today.”
Let’s take yesterday’s column as a case in point. Right away, it’s clear there is a mismatch:
For starters, she’s 29 and he’s 25. Re SMV, the haircut is killing him – that and the suit make him look geeked out. In contrast, she’s submitted a photo that suggests she’s down for anything. In fact, they’re both sky divers, which appears to be the basis for the match in the first place. In any case, let’s assume that despite their mutual love of dopamine chasing, they’re not a match. Fine. Compare and contrast how they describe the date to the Globe reporter:
Meg Lotterman:
My roommate and I went to a bar and I had a drink. It didn’t help.
I arrived at 8; he was already [seated] . . . right then and there I assumed he was going to be a stick- in-the-mud.
David Nash:
I was a little anxious, but excited to see where things might go.
Before she sat down, she had already asked me her first question, and it just continued from there.
Meg:
He looked way too young. He also was dressed like he was going to go to an interview. I immediately asked him what he does for work, because I wasn’t even sure if he was old enough to work.
(Note from SW: The restaurant is fancy and expensive.)
David:
We talked about everything from travel, to parents, to work, and even Groupon.
Meg:
He did not seem to be the adventurous type. He did seem to talk about his mom a lot…He was like a baby to me, in regard to dating, and I felt like I had to protect him and make sure he didn’t know too much about who I really am, because he might be scared of women forever.
I just felt so bad for him, in a sad-puppy way, and I figured I’d make his night and give him a hug and go our separate ways.
POST-MORTEM:
DAVID A
MEG C-
David:
There was enough interest on my part. I was interested to see where things may go.
Meg:
This would never work for me. I’m not attracted to guys who are almost 10 years younger than me or who look like my dorky brother. He’s just a sweet boy and he seems like he has a good heart. He has potential, I think, for the right girl, maybe someone more his age and like him in that sweet, sweet way that I just don’t possess anymore due to my experience with men.
Can you spot all the bitch moves by Meg? I exclaimed “Bitch!” ten times while reading the story.
There’s a wackness in the world of dating. I don’t even know who to blame for the behavior of women like this, and I don’t care. If this were my daughter, I would practically die of shame, and then I would say the following to her:
“No one is demanding that you settle for someone you don’t find attractive. You applied to Dinner With Cupid, and you gave them the right to choose a date for you. The worst case scenario was that you would spend two hours having dinner with someone who was boring or unkind. That did not happen.
You had dinner with an interesting, good guy who didn’t make you tingle. Get over yourself. You are self-centered and mean. You have no empathy if you can say such unkind things knowing they’ll be published and will surely embarrass him. You are a spoiled, entitled brat and I am ashamed of you.
You are not worthy of commitment. At the rate you are going, you will spend your 30s and 40s chasing bad men and you will deserve whatever they dish out.
This young man dodged a bullet.”
The bad news is that women like Meg give all of us a bad name and a bad reputation.
The good news is that if you can distinguish yourself from women like her by valuing the worth in others and asking yourself what you have to give, you will stand out as extraordinary by comparison.
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“He has potential, I think, for the right girl, maybe someone more his age and like him in that sweet, sweet way that I just don’t possess anymore due to my experience with men”
I wonder if the “due to my experience with men” part is really correct. Yeah, I know a lot of people talk about women becoming hardened due to too much carousel-riding, but I’d be really surprised if someone that dismissive wasn’t showing pretty much the same tendencies at age 12.
I think this is a great example about how expectations (unrealistic or otherwise) can blind us from actually having a real and meaningful interaction with another person.
The guy in this example seemed to genuinely want to get to know more about her.
She seemed to have already decided he wasn’t good enough at first sight from the mismatch of whatever dashing lawyer-type guy she was holding in her mind.
Kind of reminds me about some statistic I read a few months ago about how the average woman on an online dating website rates 80% of men as “below average” (which just goes to show you how out of whack expectations are these days).
My advice to anyone being setup on a blind date type situation like this, remember to abandon your over-hyped expectations and to actually enjoy discovering the human being in front of you.
He may not have six pack abs or a 6-figure job, but he is just as human as you are with the exact same fears, insecurities, and dreams.
You can’t say it loud enough Susan.
And sad but it’s a glass-half-empty/full statement.
In other words … bucko to you for saying, and don’t stop. But I don’t think you CAN say it loud enough.
“To be fair, there have been some real jerks among the guys – one guy said, “The minute I saw her across the room I knew this was a no go. She is the opposite of my type.” Rude, right? It sticks out in my memory, because he was one of the few men to behave with so little empathy.”
How is this ‘rude’? At least he was being truthful and honest, without being manipulative, viciously personal, or insultingly cruel (like all too many women I’ve had the misfortune to cross paths with). She simply was not his type and he knew it; so this makes him a ‘jerk’ to say so?
As one who has had experience, I can say that all things being equal, men have a long way to go to be able to match modern women in conceit, manipulation, viciousness, and cruelty — especially when it is just for the sake of being vicious and cruel.
“The bad news is that women like Meg give all of us a bad name and a bad reputation.”
The sad and all-too-typical reality is that at least 95% (and here I’m am certain that I’m being generous) of modern women are all too much like Meg, and they give the remaining 5% a bad name and reputation.
Wow! Can’t agree with your assessment more, Susan.
@david foster
I wondered that too. I pegged her for the classic Queen Bee Mean Girl in junior high. But I think it’s reasonable to assume she capitalized on that experience to hop on the carousel and feed her self-image as “the hottest.”
What I find remarkable is that at 29, she shows no self-awareness whatsoever, no understanding that she’s competing with 25 year olds for a 25 year old’s attention. Her profession is listed as “recruiter.” No doubt she thinks she’s capable of snagging some guy on his way to becoming a CEO, but all I can think of are very shallow tire treads. She’s been worn.
@Clay
Exactly. Even if she saw him as a version of her little brother, she could have related to him in a way that made their dinner together enjoyable. She could also have told him at the end of the night that she was uncomfortable with the age difference. It’s as if she wanted to declare to the Globe’s readership that she was way out of his league – look at her comment that she would give him a hug and make his night. Instead of looking more attractive, she comes across as ugly, at least to me.
Rejection is difficult, on both sides of the experience. The least we can do is give each other respect and not rob someone of their dignity.
@ david foster
Classic thing that beta males here all the time. “You’d make a great boyfriend for someone else, but you’re not my type.” Unfortunately, everyone says that, and beta males have a hard time meeting this mythical “someone else”.
@Augen
I know I risk coming across as an old scold, but someone has to call out this kind of behavior.
The culture turns out way too many of these types. Feminism, I’m looking at you. But where the hell were this girl’s parents? Maybe they’re also jerks, but it sure does seem like the percentage of bitches in the population is rising fast.
@Susan
“but someone has to call out this kind of behaviour.”
Do you actually spell behaviour without the u?
thats annoying.
Don’t call it out, feature not bug.
Frankly if we could get all women to write some kind of response and publicize it like this identifying wife vs. next pile material is but a google search away.
Other than that, she looks old. Her neck could fit on my grandmother.
“the women often imply that the Boston Globe matched them up with someone well beneath them in SMV, and they voice their displeasure at being misled and having their time wasted”
William F Buckley remarked that there are very few people who you can’t have an interesting, useful, and informative conversation with for an hour or so. Bill Gates said that when he reads a magazine, he reads it cover to cover rather than picking out the articles he’s interested in, because he might learn something unexpected.
“I know I risk coming across as an old scold, but someone has to call out this kind of behavior. ”
No, you are right to take a stand on this. I also agree that the percentage of bitches in the population is rising fast.
This “girl” sounds like a 15-year old. She would do quite well on a trashy reality show and maybe that’s part of the problem. So much of the media celebrates this self-centered, entitled behavior.
@Take the Red Pill
Yes, I think so. It’s a statement that his SMV is higher than hers. It’s one thing to say this to your buddies over a beer, but I don’t think it’s particularly gracious to state in a publication that you found someone unattractive. Pairs are matched based on mutual interests, and a consensus by the panel that their SMV is similar. Obviously, they’re not going to hit a home run every time. Remarking on someone’s looks at first glance is inappropriate unless the reaction is positive, IMO. I would hold each of my kids to that standard.
I disagree. This level of self-absorption and cruelty is hardly rare, but it does not describe most of the women I have known.
If you’re right, then the red pill really sucks for you, because it means your chances of finding a mate are very slim.
@Susan, Take the Red Pill:
Seconded.
Assuming that guy was polite during the date and what he wrote afterwards, how is stating that he judged her on her looks to ‘not be his type’ rude?
@Lokland
One of the many things that makes us Americans so frustrating.
Here’s the thing, though. This badness, if I may call it that, is not genetic, at least not entirely so. We’re producing women like this on the “nurture” side of the ledger. If the number of women like this is rising, there’s no other explanation.
I agree that it’s a gift to men that women like this broadcast their selfishness, but society will be much better off if we can curtail whatever it is that is turning out these shrews.
Nevermind, I was a minute to late.
@Lokland:
It’s not that bad. She’s attractive enough for a fling.
After that her personality would be too obvious…
I once observed the CEO of my company chatting with great familiarity and fondness with a member of the custodial staff in the office. He was not the least bit patronizing or condescending. I mentioned it to him (I was his asst.) and he said, “You’d be surprised how often I learn something while chatting with people.” He engendered great loyalty from everyone, and people strove to do their best for him at all levels of the organization.
“Assuming that guy was polite during the date and what he wrote afterwards, how is stating that he judged her on her looks to ‘not be his type’ rude?”
This guy judged her not to be his type just after seeing her across the room. This so it goes in print and the woman, her family, friends and coworkers all see this. It’s not necessary and it’s cruel.
@ Lokland
Its like color, flavor, or honor. Why add the unnecessary u? Saves typing time. The non-American spellings are “inferiour”.
“that sweet, sweet way that I just don’t possess anymore due to my experience with men.”
Abbott incoming
Susan, I’m curious as to what you think the right thing to do would be for a guy in that situation.
He is set up on a date, he sees the girl, knows that there is “no spark” as the saying goes, what then?
My take: since he volunteered for the date, he is obligated to go through with it. Since he’s obligated to go through with it, he’s obligated to be as personable as he can be without leading her on. It’s always possible that a spark will fly during the dinner, he never knows.
But suppose his initial impression holds, you can’t blame him for that, right? You just think he shouldn’t have said it in the paper?
A guy saying, “she isn’t my type” is equivalent to Meg’s saying, “He looked like a stick in the mud.” They’re reporting a negative first impression, and you know exactly where the report is going – it’s all going to be negative. I have never seen this not play out this way.
OK, I found the article where I thought the guy was rude. Here is the actual transcript, it’s worse than I remembered. The woman is 51, he’s 60.
ASSHOLE!
Here’s another example:
ASSHOLE!
To be fair, as I said in the post, the women are generally much less gracious than the men.
LOL! Desi, you have really hit your stride here. Your sense of humor is awesome in every thread.
@Maggie:
I just don’t think it’s necessarily that bad of a comment.
I have no idea how she looked of course, but assuming she came into the room with a shaved head, a swastika tattooed on her forehead, wearing clothes that could fit right into a civil-war reenactment and carrying a small bulldog in a purse.
Would it be acceptable to state that she wasn’t his type then?
What if it was simply that he had some major thing for brunettes and didn’t care much for blondes. Or that she was dressed as a hipster and he can’t stand people like that.
‘Not my type’ can mean lots of things depending on the person saying it. I agree that it could be rude, but if the rest of his writing in the paper was polite, I don’t think it’s really a big deal.
I think we’ve had a similar discussion about this in the past.
In regards to either:
“The minute I saw her across the room I knew this was a no go. She is the opposite of my type.”
“He’s just a sweet boy and he seems like he has a good heart. He has potential, I think, for the right girl, maybe someone more his age and like him in that sweet, sweet way that I just don’t possess”
I think the former is preferable – at least it’s honest, albiet self-centered. The latter just assumes the guy not only is lower SMV, but also couldn’t bare being told so. It’s total insult to injury – just like the fake boyfriend rejection.
How is lying, and taking assumption – that they can’t – over the other person ability to handle rejection, less rude?
“no understanding that she’s competing with 25 year olds for a 25 year old’s attention”
If this were true, he wouldn’t be looking for dates in the Boston Globe. You can scapegoat this woman all you want, and nothing you say is untrue, but the much more serious problem is that this guy is obviously getting no takers in his SMP or MMP, and she’s just responding to that reality.
The responsibility for that state of affairs extends far beyond a few bitchy women.
Okay, I just read the transcript in you comment Susan, and I’m invoking my caveat: “if the rest of his writing in the paper was polite, I don’t think it’s really a big deal.”
@Escoffier
First, I think the rule is exactly the same for both sexes. This is not a private date. It will be reported to a large readership. Diplomacy is called for. There is no reason why nuclear rejection is required or even informative.
I’m sure it’s very common for one party or the other to see their date and think, “NOT attracted.” OK, maybe the other person feels the same way! The Globe is picking up the tab, it’s a funny adventure with potential for good future storytelling. Why not spend two hours having a pleasant or even great conversation with someone? I know people who have ended blind dates by agreeing they were not a match, but knew someone who might be! If you’ve got stuff in common, whether it be skydiving, cooking, travel, whatever – surely you can spend a couple of hours sharing tips and tales of great experiences.
When it comes time to report to the Globe, here’s what you say, assuming the other person was pleasant:
I enjoyed meeting David. He’s done some great dives, it was fun to compare notes. Conversation flowed easily about a whole bunch of topics, and I had a good time. He’s four years younger than me, though, and that felt like a lot. I don’t see us going out again, but wish him all the best.
“A guy saying, “she isn’t my type” is equivalent to Meg’s saying, “He looked like a stick in the mud.” ”
Guys can have different taste, as I’m well aware so do women.
Who likes a stick in the mud?
@Cooper
It’s not less rude, and I didn’t say it was.
In the transcript I published with Kamran’s actual words, I do think he’s as rude as Meg was here.
Does anyone remember Jon Finkel? Nuclear public rejection: http://www.businessinsider.com/gizmodo-blogger-slams-hedge-fund-guy-she-met-on-okcupid-for-being-nerdy-and-being-the-magic-world-champ-2011-8
ROFL.
Interestingly, I just read that 74% of the applicants to Dinner with Cupid are female, just 26% are male.
Again, I will say that I have no objection with Meg’s not finding David attractive or wanting to see him again. I believe I made that very clear at least twice in the OP. I have a problem with the nuclear style of her rejection.
We no longer consider the feelings of others when we reject them.
Compare that to Elizabeth Bennet’s rejecting Mr. Collins by beginning, “I thank you for the honour of your proposal.”
WTF! She didn’t know him – why would she say such a thing to a newspaper reporter!
This is not about Meg owing David sexual attraction or vice versa. This is about behaving in a way that is civilized and respectful of the other person’s humanity.
I would assume that the journalistic team on the paper are mostly composed of women for this type of feature.
I would think that there is an element of vicarious enjoyment and/or cruelty with the initial matching and reporting of outcomes.
Whenever I have glanced at these pieces in the UK press I would estimate the number of rejections of the male by the female greatly outnumber the reverse outcome.
Whilst no-one purports to take it seriously it probably indirectly and subconsciously contributes to validation of hypergamy in the female readership and approach anxiety in the male.
The trouble with the red pill is even fun and fluff journalism like this cant be enjoyed any more.
Any self respecting modern male would not get involved anyway so the results are largely self selecting.
“i pegged her for the classic Queen Bee Mean Girl in junior high”
No way – a Queen Bee admitting she needs a Newspaper to find a man? Are you serious? She has them lined up.
No, this is the norm that the second-wave Queen Bees have set, and she’s just a poor sap trying to keep up, and not doing s very good job pulling it off (relationship-wise, likely due to spending the bulk of her time and energy on her career/keeping up with Queen Bees in other ways).
The only way out is for the new Queen Bees to set a better norm with your help.
@ OTC
That whole thing was hilarious because Jon Finkel was clearly out of her league. Real life example of “2/10: wouldn’t bang”.
@Susan
This is something I’ve noticed a lot in my personal life, and it irks me so much that I have actually brought it up with some of the girls I know. Specifically, I hear girls I know constantly mention “awful” dates they went on. When I hear that, I always follow up by asking what was so “awful” about the date. Generally, the answers are along the lines of “nothing in common”, “boring”, “bad restaurant”, etc, etc. As in nothing that remotely rises to the level of “awful”. By these girls’ standards, my average meeting at work would be “awful”. In contrast, I’ve almost never heard a guy I know describe a date as awful. Almost always, the negative about the date was either “eh, we just didn’t have anything to talk about” or “she wasn’t too hot”. But I almost never hear about a guy rushing to end a date or being rude or dismissive because of that (constantly with the women it’s “I was dying to get out of there”). How bad can an hour of conversation with another decent person (assuming they’re not stupid of mean) be? I’ve been on plenty of dates where I didn’t have much in common with the girl, or wasn’t attracted to her, but my thoughts are always “well that one didn’t work out”. Never do I reach for “awful” or “terrible” as words to describe them, because it would be wildly inaccurate, but I find that women I know do so consistently. It’s gotten to the point where I publicly rebuke girls who describe it that way to me, and almost always, after I dig, they back away from the “awful” descriptor.
A corollary to this would be the words “creepy” or “weirdo” that get thrown at guys who make bad approaches. The vast majority of these guys aren’t creepy or weird, women just use those as code words for “awkward” or “not cute enough” or “not my type”. It’s something that can stick with a guy for a long time, even though it’s completely untrue. I know plenty of guys who aren’t great at approaching women, but aren’t weird or creepy in the slightest. It’s another “nuclear” term that gets bandied about way too often.
@OTC
He definitely had the last laugh.
This weekend on NPR I heard a story about a guy in Sweden who has laid out the complete genealogy of Middle Earth:
http://www.npr.org/2012/10/14/162879079/for-middle-earth-one-family-tree-to-rule-them-all
@Susan
I don’t really care which is more rude – they are both negative, and the most important thing in that negative first impression most often stuck.
I had something I wanted to bring up here, and it seems relatable to this post.
I’m curious about different women’s feeling towards being a guys first serious relationship. (It seems like Meg was getting this impression)
I was chatting two girl friends, and one was metioning how she wants her brother to brake up with his gf. After mentioning how mean that is, she explained because its his first serious relationship, and they already talk about marriage. (Even from her, she says they both really like each other)
Now the one girl, literally squirmed on the couch, at imagining being someone’s first serious relationship. Where as the other girl argued that is exact what she would like. The second girl being Asian, the first Caucasian. (the more I her about the second girls dating preferences, the more I feel like I’m talking to a young Hope)
Ill have to cont.
@ Cooper
Aha. I’ve got my strategy all planned out then. I should first seek a relationship with an Asian girl. Hopefully that works out. If not, I’ll be properly broken in for a relationship with a Caucasian girl.
@Zach
Haha, I hear you. It’s as if the girls feel that men should be jumping through hoops to entertain them, and yet they’ll penalize that very quickly as well.
Exactly. For the record, if someone is mean or rude, I think it is totally justifiable to end the date. And I set the bar pretty low for rudeness – if someone picked up a call, for example, I would end the date right there unless they had a good reason for it and apologized.
One Dinner with Cupid article described the guy doing some bizarre routine all night about Twilight and Justin Bieber, pretending to be a big fan of both. If someone made a mockery of the date that way I would leave, and I’d be happy to tell the Globe why.
Good! I’ve also heard guys report that when they see a woman reject a guy in a cruel way when he approaches, they call her out as a total bitch. If the guy has high SMV this is potentially very influential.
I think that the terms are overused, and unfair, because they imply that guy is a predator, when often it really is just a lack of social skill. OTOH, I have witnessed this behavior in men myself – I recently referenced it here. In general, there’s too much eye contact – too soon and too prolonged. It’s an invasion of a woman’s psychological space. I’ve experienced this even from some very good looking men. I remember once in college meeting a guy while studying outside on the lawn. He was so handsome, but within 3 days I was hiding on campus. I swear I thought he was capable of obsession that might lead to violence.
I actually don’t think this rises to the level of nuclear, honestly. A nuke is more of an unexpectedly harsh and public rejection, like in the Finkel case. In this case, they agreed up front to rate each other publicly, right? So she is just saying what everyone thinks anyway, jsut not filtering it to be tactful.
On top of that, it’s a news story – so, the only interesting angles are crash-n-burn or amazing success. Who wants to read about two people politely going their own ways in the kindest way possible? Doesn’t sell.
While this woman was a little stuck-up, and unkind, and I chuckled at all the code words for “slutty”… it doesn’t strike me a nuke. The real problems, IMO, are the underlying attitudes, not her lack of manners.
For some gawdawful reason, it’s seen as an empowering “you go, girl!” thing for us women to blow men out of the water when it’s totally unnecessary. There is a scene in an episode of Big Bang Theory along those lines that always irked me. Nerdy physicist, Leonard, decides he’s going to be more straightforward in expressing his attraction to the next available woman he meets, which, unfortunately, turns out to be a sexy FBI agent conducting a security clearance on his engineer friend, Howard. During the interview, he takes off his glasses, goes into his spiel, and asks her on a date. It was a daring move, but nothing impolite. She responds, “Oh, can my six-foot-two Navy SEAL husband join us?” and flashes a big diamond ring. It would have sufficed for her to simply smile and say, “Thank you, but I’m married. Can we proceed with the interview?” Supposedly, this was done for comedic value, but the real comedy was in the fact that Leonard was using a serious interview with a government agent as an opportunity to be more confident with women. I dunno who found the nuclear rejection funny — it made me want to kick her in the shin.
“Again, I will say that I have no objection with Meg’s not finding David attractive or wanting to see him again.”
One of your premises was that she had 25-year-old competition to consider, I was (and am) challenging the vslidity of that premise.
An indeterminate proportion of 25-year-old women aren’t ready to find “the one” yet due to the norms society feels no compunction whatsoever about imposing on them despite marketing them as “non-judgemental”. Adhering to that norm required several years of practice rejecting good men, with ever-more contorted rationalizations for so doing.
The result of those contortions is what we see here from both subjects of the post. Would five minutes of amused mastery from him make a world of difference here? Absolutely – the problems are not deep, but they are wide, at least in the 24-35 crowd.
@Darsh
There is a similar dating site in the Washington Post I read. Usually,when the man or woman starts off with “right away, I knew he/she was not my type” it’s based on something superficial. For instance, a woman might say her type is “over 6-foot tall”. Right away she’s dismissed over half the men in the population on something that really doesn’t matter. So I guess that I get impatient with the “right away, not my type”.
In this case, if the woman was deemed “not his type” from across the room, a lot of readers would infer that she is either fat or ugly when the reason may be as superficial as brunette vs. blonde.
That’s exactly the point. I don’t think they did agree to rate one another publicly. They agreed to rate the date, and that is something very different. She made it personal when the truth is that they were not a match. She could have explained why without resorting to ridicule.
@Susan
Further to the “creep” point, most of these guys aren’t socially awkward at all around other guys. They just have anxiety about approaching women. I have a good friend who is absolutely the life of almost every party, but is massively awkward when approaching women at bars. It’s so bad that we gather around to watch each one (it’s kind of hysterical).
For me though, the flipside of this is most women not having the fortitude to indicate they’re not interested in a guy. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had girls tell me they gave their number to a guy the night before but wouldn’t ever go out on a date with him. To me, too many girls have a problem saying “no”. I’d much, much rather get a “no” than waste my time later that week calling a girl who isn’t ever going to respond. It’s actually gotten to the point where I am amused/enjoy nuclear rejections, because at least there’s some clarity there.
Example:
I walk up to the bar, and next to me are two women having a drink (it’s 2 AM in a very crowded West Village bar). While waiting for my drink, I overhear the one of them complaining to the other about some guy problems. I turn to them and say “You know, I couldn’t help overhearing, and I’d have to say that [this bar] at 2 AM on a Saturday probably isn’t the best time or place to complain about guys.” The one girl turns to me and says, with a straight face, “Thank you. Your opinion has been noted” and turned back to her friend. I cracked up and was laughing pretty hard, and gave her a high five when I walked away, congratulating her on her poise and response.
@Desi
Ah, OK, that makes sense. You’re probably right about that. I was thinking more in general terms though – she appears to be completely unaware that at 29 her options may be waning, and she is in fact competing with 25 yo women for the men she does find attractive. It’s clear that she is not interesting in competing with anyone for this particular guy’s attention.
I’d have given anything for him to have joked that she was a bit long of tooth for him. Assuming she wasn’t particularly friendly and pleasant on the date, this would have at least created sparks, even if they weren’t the romantic kind.
Hmmm, how is this compatible with the oft-heard claim by guys here that their hurdle for attraction is quite low, i.e., If she’s not a wildebeest, she’s in?
““due to my experience with men” part is really correct. Yeah, I know a lot of people talk about women becoming hardened due to too much carousel-riding, but I’d be really surprised if someone that dismissive wasn’t showing pretty much the same tendencies at age 12.”
Its correct. Its even admitted by women and their advocates. Terms like “discover” and “empower” indicate that multi cock exploration is a sought after mind altering orientation. The hardening is an unintended or undesirable side effect and a HUGE loss. Its the collateral damage that few men want included on the wife material list.
“She’s been worn”
Cock worn. The cock-cerebellum synapse is snapped. The breaking N varies among women.
.
@Maggie:
True, most readers would probably interpret it that way. But there is still enough plausible deniability that if the rest of the writing was polite, I wouldn’t call it rude.
Turned out that he was rude throughout the entire piece, so my argument there is somewhat moot.
Still, for the record, I really don’t mind that people have superficial reasons to reject anyone within any time frame. I believe people are free to have whatever standards they want, as long as they are also willing to take the consequences. Whether it’s hair colour or height or money or breast size, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and desires.
Hell, I once literally compared heights with a girl in a club (stood back-to-back without shoes to see who was tallest). You see, she wasn’t attracted to a guy who was shorter than her!
Considering how clean the floors were it was a bad idea, but I’m fine: Turned out I was the tallest one.
@Susan:
That’s not a nice thing to say you know.
Guys have a relatively low standard, but for most guys it’s a bit higher than wildebeest.
Since we’re on the topic of dating, what’s the general consensus around here on dating multiple people at once?
“For some gawdawful reason, it’s seen as an empowering “you go, girl!” thing for us women to blow men out of the water when it’s totally unnecessary”
It’s apex fallacy – men “get” to be cruel, women should too. Fair’s fair. It’s (often imaginary) male privilege all the way down.
Hello all. I think I posted once or twice before but usually just tend to read comments instead of make them myself.
This woman was rude but she comes from a generation of “being honest”, “keeping it real”, “true to myself”, and other self-serving excuses to promote crassness and ill-consideration of others. It’s a problem of culture although I do sense more women express this sentiment than men, likely to the pedestalization of women that acts as a restraint on men.
And I don’t think she is going to end up alone and used up. Nope indeed. Like that Tracy Clark Forre, she will get married to a good quality man in a few years or less.
Promiscuous, crass, vulgar women do very well in this marriage market, as per my observations.
@Zach
Those words (‘awful’, ‘creepy’, ‘weirdo’) are like a subconscious nuclear first-strike on the egos of the collective conscious of the men that aren’t at least 1 or 2 points higher in SMV/MMV, though equal in such women’s exaggerated self assessment and demands. It serves to dissuade the unworthy so that they will be left alone. The problem for many of them is that if they keep this attitude up too long they truly will be left alone.
@INTJ
It might become an adopted stragety of mine as well.
So far, I’ve really started to notice how some girls don’t like affection – it sets off all their wrong signals.
Maybe it has to do with “settling.”
I think some girls look for an abundance of attention as a signal of lower SMV, and thus disqualify a guy for being too interested. Maybe Meg would’ve liked the guy if he didn’t find her interesting.
I’m not sure if it’s maturity, or cultural. But some girls can’t bare the thought of having a guy adore her – want to be with only her. I’m not sure if its the idea of the responsibility or whether they consider themselves undeserving.
Nonetheless, I’ve concluded I want nothing to do with these types. I want a girl where I don’t have to relinquish my interest to maintain my SMV – I don’t want to have to find the fact that I would like to be in a relationship in order to make her think I’m a catch.
So, I figured out so to test for such a girl. Be as interested as you would want to be – from the beginning. I want a girl who is comfortable being the receptical for attention, and one who isn’t afraid to reciprocating it either.
Best way to do this, I’ve found, is to test for it early.
I think this may be a good way for us to find women who aren’t looking to disqualify a guy for being “sweet.”
@ Susan
Have you seen this article on Slate titled “Sex is Cheap”? It is brief, but it gives a mainstream audience a rather good introduction into the dynamics of hook-up culture. The central argument of the article is that young men are still getting access to sex, even if they are slackers; it points out that the women with whom they are having sex are generally of higher socio-economic levels. The article is bit broad, but it at least mentions that the slacker men must first be good looking before their “achievement issues” are overlooked by women.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/02/sex_is_cheap.html
“Guys have a relatively low standard, but for most guys it’s a bit higher than wildebeest.”
Depends how you dress it. :p
@Zach
And with good reason when the risk of being ignominiously shot down or nuked is sufficiently high, even when it’s by someone of lower SMV/MMV.
[quote]Abbot incoming[/quote]
…and seldom fails to amuse.
These are not two people who, based solely on their photographs, I would have matched as having similar attractiveness. She’s no beauty, but he’s not much, either.
Here are a couple of fellows I would have quickly and superficially matched her with.
This may have been what she thought she deserved. If that’s the case, I see a lot of feline in her future.
I don’t think she was the mean girl in 8th grade, but she wanted to be. Oh, she wanted to be. That’s the worst. Sometimes the mean girls get it out of their system. The wannabes never seem to
I matched the guy with these these two ladies.
“this would have at least created sparks, even if they weren’t the romantic kind.”
Distinction without a difference, barring extreme cases.
“I don’t think they did agree to rate one another publicly. They agreed to rate the date, and that is something very different. She made it personal when the truth is that they were not a match.”
This, on the other hand is a distinction so important one could build a
career out of it. Write some more on this!
“Hmmm, how is this compatible with the oft-heard claim by guys here that their hurdle for attraction is quite low, i.e., If she’s not a wildebeest, she’s in?”
Susan, if a guy has ruled out a girl at first glance, something must be REALLY wrong with her or else she is one of the rarities that just zero for him. Dealbreakers for me, aside from the obvious stuff like way overweight or a hideous face, would be visible tats, a nose piercing, completely counter-cultural clothes (e.g., goth) and so on. I am also really turned off by short hair.
I remember one of the very few blind dates I ever had, freshman year of college, was fixed up to go to a formal dance, I knew from my first look at her haircut–half pixie, half butch–that it was not happening. Nice girl though. I was not mean to her and I don’t think she was that into me so no harm done either way.
OTOH, we guys need to take ourselves and approaching less seriously and sincerely be able to find the humor in being shot down and develop more true self esteem and look for less other’s esteem.
“Haha, I hear you. It’s as if the girls feel that men should be jumping through hoops to entertain them, and yet they’ll penalize that very quickly as well.”
Ding Ding.
@Zach
I too have started to call girls out on similar conplaints. I know a few that have no resitation to say “ugh, I want a boyfriend so bad” in all sorts of place, among various company. I can’t help back shake my head, cause their all girls with absolutely no shortage of male attention – essentially ‘being picky’ is not a complaint I can put up with constantly.
The reason girls report “I was dying to get out of there!” is probably because they felt they knew it more than him. Let’s face it – some guys can’t tell whether the girl is feeling it. So, to them their sitting their thinking “omg and this chump thinks I might be the one! Rofl”
What all that rejection means for another group
happy happy
http://3fatcats.net/photos/d/1236-1/Copy1_1+of+DSC_0018_001.jpg
.
To be fair, there have been some real jerks among the guys – one guy said, “The minute I saw her across the room I knew this was a no go. She is the opposite of my type.” Rude, right? It sticks out in my memory, because he was one of the few men to behave with so little empathy.
Susan, I’m going to push back and strongly disagree with this….especially the characterization of the thought being rude. Again, the core issue here is the importance of physical appearance to whether a man can be attracted. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man immediately deciding a woman isn’t his physical type at all. Now that doesn’t mean he has to be a dick about it, and make her feel bad. If it is a blind date, the guy should go through with the date and be pleasant.
Personal story time. Back in 1999, I was working out at gym X. Suffice it to say, I was in absolute top physical condition, very lean, tan, etc. I come out one day from a workout, and I’ve got a handwritten note on my car windshield from a girl who thinks she recognizes me from college 4 years earlier (when I was a fat ass at 28% bodyfat). She is definitely interested and wants me to call her. I was like “what the hell”. I call her and I actually really like her voice, she is interested in working out, and we have some amazing conversations. I’m really getting my hopes up especially making assumptions about her physical appearance based on her lifestyle of working out.
We agree to meet up for a blind date. I remember the exact second I saw her for the first time. Honestly, I was so disappointed but I think I did my best to try and not show that as I didn’t want to make her feel bad. But she was literally 180 degrees off what my physical type is. We went out, and actually she was a totally cool chick. I actually genuinely enjoyed her company and our conversation. She was also very smart, and really was the first woman who I met who I could have some deep, intellectual conversations with. But there was absolutely no attraction on my part at all.
Even though I wasn’t attracted, I liked her as a person, so we actually hung out that summer of 99 before I went off to grad school. I could actually tell you some very interesting stories. I’m not particularly proud or trying to brag, but we probably had the reverse dynamic of her being the “beta orbiter” trying to win attraction from me. She actually took me once on a “date” to a very interesting place where I think she was trying to “teach me a lesson” about physical appearance. At the time, I was probably very physically vain…I lived in the gym, tanned 4-5 days a week, removed most of my body hair….the late 90s was probably the peak of the metrosexual look and because of projection I assumed maximizing my physical appearance was the most important thing I could do.
Anyways, I knew the exact second I saw her, there was no way there could ever be a sexual/romantic relationship with her. That doesn’t make me a jerk. We went out, had a fun time, and at least for me I made a new friend. If I had looked at her at first meeting, and told her she wasn’t my physical type and got back in my car and drove away, THAT WOULD HAVE MADE ME A JERK.
Darsh:
Since we’re on the topic of dating, what’s the general consensus around here on dating multiple people at once?
My response:
(Forgive me but I don’t know how to do the quote thing yet)
I think it’s a good idea in theory as it spreads the risk around. However, I am not the best at managing dating multiple men as the interactions tend to be shallower and less time spent knowing each. Probably need to pare the numbers down.
I had a late start in the dating game and sometimes feel like a teenager in figuring this stuff out.
From the comments made, I relate the most to Mike C’s girlfriend/fiancee as I had spent a good part of my dating years heavily overweight ( I had a couple of relationships before I really packed on the pounds) and managed to shed all the weight within the last two years. I also have similar educational background to Ms. Walsh and part of my self-development was to lose the Type A career-focused mindset so endemic to a good percentage of women who attend business school, and re-discover my femininity as it was buried one the path to higher education/career path.
It wasn’t so hard to lose that mindset as it was not inherent to me and it was something I assumed to fit in the environment I found myself in. Observing my supremely feminine mother, her friends and my female relatives helped (we come from a traditional culture that emphasizes traditional roles) as was an extended period of unemployment that allowed me to get fit, read books/blogs on fitness, relationships, beauty, skin care and makeup, dating, etc, work on entrepreneurial ventures, and generally take good long hard look at where I was in life and what I need to do to end up where I want.
That hard work paid off.
Even though I am not a fan of the rating system, I will use it to make a point. I went from a 5 to a 7. An 8 if I put on make up and dress up.
My personality has softened a lot and I do find that the change has been very effective in terms of how people relate and treat me.
The difference in reaction is apparent even among family members. You really do catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. Not that was I rude or crass (my parents brought me up better) but I suppressed my charm, mild flirtatiousness and other qualities that might have been misconstrued by my family, my community and society in general as “being forward”.
I did end up in a relationship that lasted 6 months but broke it off because as kind, attractive and decent as he was, there was an intellectual mismatch that I tried to overlook initially.
Currently am dating now (the dates come from different avenues i.e online, cafes, social network) and sometimes feel overwhelmed, although I feel it will only be a matter of time before I find my match. One question I keep receiving, especially from the more astute men, is “how come you’re single?”. A few really push the point. I really don’t want to tell them about my background right off the bat so I usually say I haven’t found the one yet. Not sure about how much to tell as I am kind of old-fashioned when it comes to discretion.
@HerrKaiser
It seems like the article is ignoring the apex fallacy. It would sound more true-to-life if it said that sex was cheap for charismatic men, badboys and men with game (regardless of whether they were slackers in other areas of their lives). Yes, some average guys w/o much game get laid somewhat but not that much. What these studies and articles don’t really get into is the relative SMV/MMV of the partners in the relationships or the sex.
From the article:
Are the bf’s of higher “value”, equal, less? We don’t know. I think there are some men that have unrealistic expectations and are with “better” women but I bet a lot of these relationships are actually the guy having more value and the woman is trying to get higher than she can hold and the guy is attracted enough and likes the steady stream of sex, companionship and not having to feel alone but he just isn’t that into her because she’s lower than him. Both scenarios happen and I wonder which happens more. My anecdotal experience from observing my friends is that too often it’s the women trying to tame a badboy and getting addicted to the validation that comes from being treated poorly and then winning him over.
@MIGHOW
I hadn’t thought of this, but I certainly hope this was not a cynical attempt to produce this kind of response. That would be so unethical. FWIW, my own kids say they wouldn’t apply to that program for anything. The odds of it working out well are slim, and the odds of being publicly humiliated are high!
@Cooper
The thing is, the fantasy of women to tame or reform the alpha means they would in fact be the first serious relationship for that man. The man who never fell for anyone until they came along and broke down all his defenses.
I think it depends entirely on preselection. Could he have had a relationship before if he wanted one?
Here’s a story of mutual disappointment but different reactions.
I met up with a girl I met online for coffee. In her pictures she seemed like about a 7 or 7.5 but in person more of a 6.5 so I was mildly disappointed that she wasn’t as cute as her pics. But, no problem, I thought. We’ll talk and enjoy our company and see what happens.
She must have been disappointed too because she told me she forget something in her car and to wait in line. She never came back.
@Stickwick
Welcome, good to see you here!
I feel that same way, but you raise an important point. This is just another example of male shaming in popular culture. Why kick the guy when he’s down, and what is funny about that?
I’m trying to recall a similar portrayal of women and I do recall one – in the movie Never Been Kissed, Drew Barrymore plays an awkward, ugly teen who is asked to Prom by a popular guy as a prank, and the night of the dance the popular kids drive by her house and ridicule her. It’s also played for laughs. Come to think of it, the hot guy paying attention to the ugly duckling on a bet or dare is a common theme. But it’s also JUVENILE.
I was mean to some boys when I was 14 too cough *shit test* cough. But there’s no reason we should be seeing anything like this from an adult of either sex.
That hard work paid off.
Madalena, congrats. The things you mentioned…that you did…that right there is a template for success and dramatically improving your dating life/options. Kinda funny, my fiancee followed a similar track with losing the weight and also reading a lot of books on relationships, etc.
Even though I am not a fan of the rating system, I will use it to make a point. I went from a 5 to a 7. An 8 if I put on make up and dress up.
And I’ll bet the amount of male attention and approaches and visual glances you get has gone up substantially.
Currently am dating now (the dates come from different avenues i.e online, cafes, social network) and sometimes feel overwhelmed, although I feel it will only be a matter of time before I find my match.
By the amount of attention?
One question I keep receiving, especially from the more astute men, is “how come you’re single?”. A few really push the point. I really don’t want to tell them about my background right off the bat so I usually say I haven’t found the one yet. Not sure about how much to tell as I am kind of old-fashioned when it comes to discretion.
Re the “astute men” they probably immediately wonder why a woman of your caliber (physical appearance and personality) hasn’t already been locked down. I can’t speak for all men, but I’d say you probably don’t have to be as concerned here. I’m going to generalize here, but I think men tend to evaluate less on your past and more on who YOU ARE NOW (except for sexual history). So in other words, the fact that you were once very overweight is absolutely irrelevant to your physical appearance now except that a guy might want to know you are committed to maintaining this appearance and not backsliding. With my fiancee, I am 99.99999% sure she would never regain that weight because one of her most important daily activities is doing everything to not let that happen.
I think women tend to evaluate a guy more on his past. I know that with women I met and dated, until I was sure we had a deep emotional connection (which is really only twice) I was not going to reveal my history as a complete dateless loser in high school and college because I was pretty sure that revelation would impact her perception of me in the present. She might question “who is this guy really” so I only really wanted her to be aware of the guy she was seeing in the present.
I think you can be more candid with some of the guys, especially maybe after a few dates, and I think explaining your history might show some vulnerability that many good men will actually find attractive and endearing.
You are probably past this phase already, but I know from my fiancee that initial increase in male attention from a radical physical transformation is like a drug and extremely validating. It is easy to make some mistakes and not read men correctly especially if you don’t have a lot of experience. My fiancee made some mistakes with that initial rush of male attention, I had some angst over it and got over it, but something to be aware of.
@Han Solo
Bingo! But, I sometimes wonder about women who tame or hope to tame slacker bad boys; do they think the relationship will lead to marriage; if so, do they want a conventional marriage or do they plan to support him. A friend of mine told me about a conversation he had with his children’s Au Pair; the woman was a graduate of Julliard and from the picture he sent me; quite attractive. She went on and on about how her male roommate was a brilliant physics graduate student and how see could have conversations with him for hours; my friend then asked why she didn’t date him, she responded, “He doesn’t have edge”. The woman went on to explain that she is dating some guitar player in an “indie band”; when my friend further questioned her about her choices she said; “if the choice is between the smart boring guy and hot dumb guy, I’ll pick the hot dumb guy”. When my friend asked about her future and marriage she said; “I’m only 26, there is plenty of time for that”.
Personally, I have no problem with women saying they have a boyfriend or giving some other reason for not being interested. That’s diplomacy. I do not think any woman should give out her number and then flake. That’s deceitful. OTOH, it happens both ways. I have heard many women sound so excited some guy got their number, and they never hear from him. In fact, I’d say that at least half the time, the guy is never heard from again. This also happens at the end of dates. I know several young women who’ve been told at the end of a date, “I had a really good time, I’d love to do this again.” She says yes, he never calls. (This last is common in online dating, not sure if that is relevant.)
Here’s a story that you’ll probably think is funny. I have a single friend (from the gym) who just turned 40. She asked me to join her for drinks one Saturday afternoon at a pretty hip bar downtown. College football was on, we had a couple of drinks and caught up. It was obviously a singles scene. When she went to the restroom, some guy sidled over to chat me up. I’d say he was around my age. He asked me questions about myself, and tried to make conversation. I was mortified! Obviously, I should have told him I’ve been married for 28 years, but I could not do it. I was cordial and chatted with him. When my friend came back I said, “Please excuse us, my friend and I have some catching up to do.” Was that rude? If so, I guess I’m rude, because I know I would do the same thing again if it happened tomorrow.
@Madalena
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m glad you were able improve your weight and let your soft femininity shine. I think that improving your looks and radiating a flirtatious femininity are both great things for women to consider doing more.
As far as talking about why you’re single I think that just saying you haven’t found the one or something similar is fine at the front until there is a level of mutual trust and interest where you can share more. And you’re not lying. You are looking, you even dated the guy for 6 months but you two turned out not being compatible enough.
I always tell my female friends (and myself and my male friends too):
1) Up your value
2) Make your demands more realistic
3) Market yourself
I have no idea about point 2 in your case but it sounds like you’ve really done number 1 and are trying different avenues in number 3. Good luck and please continue to share.
I’d love to hear a doc in a white lab coat utter this diagnosis.
“The thing is, the fantasy of women to tame or reform the alpha means they would in fact be the first serious relationship for that man. The man who never fell for anyone until they came along and broke down all his defenses.
I think it depends entirely on preselection. Could he have had a relationship before if he wanted one?”
If the fantasy is to the be alphas’ first, then I think that greatly depends on the definition of ‘serious.’ I know a “couple” (at least all our friends call them that) that have been together for over 2years. (See each other 4-5times a week) And they both would not answer ‘yes’ to being in a relationship, ‘yes’ to being single, and ‘no’ to having had a serious relationship.
So, when you say “alpha” there, I have a tendency to think of a guy that just refuses to call anything he’s done as actually serious. (the ‘first’ relationship label would be completely arbitrary)
The woman went on to explain that she is dating some guitar player in an “indie band”; when my friend further questioned her about her choices she said; “if the choice is between the smart boring guy and hot dumb guy, I’ll pick the hot dumb guy”. ***When my friend asked about her future and marriage she said; “I’m only 26, there is plenty of time for that”.***
Susan, pointing this out
because I believe this thought process is FAR MORE COMMON then you seem to believe. You seem very skeptical that many women do in fact “switch gears” between the men they “date for fun” in their early to mid or even late twenties versus the men they select when they want the husband, suburban house, and kids.
GGAAAAAHHHHH! Pandora’s Box! Did someone say Spinning Plates?
The Ethics of Concealment in Dating
I think it’s fine to date several people at once, as long as all the cards are on the table.
Personally, I would not date a man who’s having sex with other people because that tells me his sexuality is waaaaayyyy too unrestricted for my taste.
@Madelena
+1, great observation.
This has obviously been a hot topic around here lately. Can you share what you’ve observed?
@HerrKaiser
Definitely too many women with the wait-til-30 script. There are some men that also have the wait-til-34 script (I’m giving men 4 more years because women in their mid 20′s typically want someone ranging from the same age to plus 8) but not as many (and these will tend to be more of the player types and also some highly driven alphas). I think it is more women’s than men’s choices that has resulted in the later average marrying age.
In which case a guy reporting that the minute he saw her he thought “no way” is a serious insult to a woman’s appearance.
@Mike C
I wouldn’t police anyone’s thoughts – I was simply saying it was rude of the guy to report this to the Boston Globe. Anyway, I grabbed the transcript of that article and posted it at #22. He was actually more insensitive than I remembered.
I think you handled that woman with respect and kindness in 1999. Far more than Meg showed in this report – though to be fair, she couldn’t have been too mean in person or David wouldn’t have given her an A (we hope).
@Madelena
Good for you, it sounds like you’re done a ton of work and been rewarded for it! I respect that so much, and I share your confidence that you will find your match. You are doing all the right things.
I think the woman will still pick the hot dumb guy when she wants to settle down. I think that people change their behaviors, but not generally who they’re attracted to. And I really don’t see women trying to seriously date men they’re not attracted to.
Meg is 29 and she certainly isn’t.
I think the woman will still pick the hot dumb guy when she wants to settle down. I think that people change their behaviors, but not generally who they’re attracted to. And I really don’t see women trying to seriously date men they’re not attracted to.
So are you saying she won’t do what she is stating her preference to be?
@Han Solo
I know a lot of men who had no luck with women when they were in there twenties and thirty, but ended up marrying twenty-something 9’s in their forties. Granted, most of these men are upper income professionals; most of them would qualify as “one percenters”. The interesting thing is; their failure with women when they were in their twenties and thirties turn made them bitter, but their success in business and experience with negotiations gave them confidence; the result is that these men have become “alphaish”, viewing their marriages as transactions that should be mutually, but predominately beneficial to them; they have taken women off the pedestal.
Did I miss something? I didn’t see the original comment, but in the part you quoted, the only preference she states is to delay getting serious about marriage. I have zero confidence that she will go for a “smart, boring” guy when she wants to marry.
That’s the reason we’re seeing so many women staying unmarried and telling their stories. They do not settle.
I believe that a woman who wants a hot dumb guy at any point is a woman in the unrestricted group. She is not going to go for Mr. Restricted when she hits 29. I just don’t see it.
@Herr Kaiser
Yes, I wrote about sex economics here:
Feminism Produced Price Drop for Sex, Price Hike for Commitment
@Abbott #67
Oh, wow! A cat picture. That certainly adds a lot to the discussion. The notion that single women end up alone with cats is certainly a new, original and helpful concept that will aid us all in obtaining a greater understanding of male/female relationships. Thank you for your valuable contribution in exploring this phenomenon.
Susan:
” I think the rule is exactly the same for both sexes. This is not a private date. It will be reported to a large readership. Diplomacy is called for. There is no reason why nuclear rejection is required or even informative.”
This is key and this is why the rejection is “nuclear”. It’s being done in public. I have no problem with the man saying “Not attractive at all” to himself, but then being gracious. I have no problem with Meg in this case saying “meh” to herself; but then being publicly gracious and simply saying “not interested”.
I think MikeC or Zach said something upthread about women breaking bad on unattractive or terrible or “awful” dates. That’s pretty terrible also. There’s no reason to talk about him that way. Discretion is called for here.
@ Susan 76
I will actually admit I’ve done that once or twice. It was always due to a lack of time though (as in I’d gotten 4 numbers, only had time for 2 dates so had to choose). I’ve been on a decent number of dates where I couldn’t remember anything substantive about the girl and it was essentially a blind date. My logic in those cases is I must have been attracted to something about her at the time, so why not give her a couple of hours to see if I was right.
Re: your story, I honestly think a guy of that age should be looking for a wedding ring. I’m only 25, and it’s getting to be on the fringe of my consciousness when I’m approaching a girl these days. Does she have a ring on? is a question I sometimes now ask myself. So in his case, I think you should have made it clear, but for single guys over 30 even, caveat emptor.
And a quick update on my no-casual-sex vow. I haven’t slept with anyone in the last 6 weeks, and have turned down a couple of offers for one-night stands. Another side benefit is I’ve also cut down on my drinking (especially binge drinking), as there’s far less of a connection between finding a girl to date and getting wasted to do so. It also helps that I have no ties between my ability to get laid and my self-esteem. I think it helps that all my friends are very well aware of my ability to get laid, and so I don’t ever have to prove anything to anyone. I’ve noticed as well that even with my friends (age 25-26), there’s a gradual move away from the binge-drinking, casual sex culture we subscribed to in college. That had been happening over the past 2 years or so, but I largely attributed it to relationships. However, since the wave of breakups among my friends (including me) in April/May, there hasn’t been a wholesale return to the frat culture of college. There’s a lot more emphasis on doing day-time events and more cultural activities (food festivals, wine tastings, beer gardens) than going out and getting shitfaced. There’s little to no shaming or ridicule of the guys with girlfriends, and actually more of a grudging respect. Even my one friend who is still in a sleep-with-anything phase told me the other day that being single was exhausting. Now I don’t think he’ll change his ways, because he derives a lot of his self-worth from sleeping with/attracting women (he’s very, very insecure), but I know that he only does it because he feels compelled to. So I think at least among my cohort, which is a very particular slice (highly educated, UMC/rich kids) of the SMP, there is a gradual evolution away from the hookup culture as we get older. It still happens plenty, but dating is now just as big or even a bigger part of our sexual/love lives. And this isn’t just my friends/my fraternity, it’s pretty widespread among the other Penn guys I know from different frats and backgrounds.
“There’s no reason to talk about him that way. Discretion is called for here.”
Men are a captive audience. That is the ONLY reason a woman can get off on disrespecting a man (or anyone else) and why men expect and deal with it.
Yeah, I don’t get it. The awkwardness of the situation was enough to be funny all by itself. The cruelty was unnecessary, but apparently at least one of the writers thought it would be good for laughs.
From what I have observed in the last 10 years especially, I have come to the sad conclusion that we women definitely are not the more sensitive, empathetic sex we consider ourselves to be. A few years ago, I listened horrified as the friends of a young female relative gleefully went through a list of their favorite ways to reject guys at bars. Most of the rejections were downright cruel. Some were just nasty — this one girl claimed she would stick her finger up the nose of a guy who had the nerve to come over to talk to them, if he was deemed unworthy. Can you imagine the outrage if a man did this to a woman? Had this whole scenario been reversed — guys chuckling with glee about deploying those same tactics on women who dared to express interest — these girls would have agreed that it was nasty and uncalled for. Somehow, they had great difficulty seeing this as nasty and uncalled for when they do it.
@SW
There is no doubt that Meg was unkind in her rejection of David, which I assume was at least in part an attempt to save face after having a disappointing, and very public, blind date. OTOH, it’s clear to me, just by looking at their photos, that this was not a match. I’m not sure how to explain why I know, but Mule’s post #62 seems to indicate the same instincts about what works and what doesn’t.
I’d have given anything for him to have joked that she was a bit long of tooth for him.
I’m not sure that he needs to lower himself to that level and make himself look petty in a public forum, but I think that he needs to be more aware of what is a good match for him and what isn’t. The thing that bothers me most about the article is how highly he rated the date and how anxious he would have been to continue when it should have been obvious to him that she was a poor match for him and not interested anyway. I’m always amazed at how many men misread a woman’s level of attraction (and I’m curious as to why that is.)
I have a cousin who is a young single educated professional; when she turned thirty and was still without a husband and kids, I gave her a kitten as a birthday gift; when she asked why I selected a cat, I explained; “I wanted to start you off on your collection”; she was not amused.
“one girl claimed she would stick her finger up the nose of a guy who had the nerve to come over to talk to them,”
Of course that ended when the “wrong” dude put that finger in a splint…
Oh Aunt Sue, you’re being far too harsh on poor Meg. With her stark and candid assessment of David, and by association the vast majority of men who identify with him, Meg is really doing a service for the Beta guys you passionately want to help.
Meg is helping the Davids of this world become better future Men by publicly exposing them to the women and harsh realities of the sexual market place in which they find themselves. Rest assured, when David hits 35, he’ll be a better man for all this; and eminently aware of how women and the SMP operates. And if he learns his lessons he’ll plan accordingly.
Experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.
Susan, great post. There is something to be said for valuing style, elegance, and sprezzatura over piglike “keepin’ it real with my plain talk” parochialism.
Chalk up yet another differentiation point and potential advantage for ladylike, psychologically strategic EQ-smart-girls with that Swiss finishing school-type of poise and polish. They have skills that men hold in great esteem.
In contrast, two thumbs down on the worn-out, sarcastic streetwalker/combat dating multi-tour veteran type who thinks that being a confrontational, histrionic social bludgeon makes her formidable. As others noted, the problem here is that the person has embraced a self-concept that celebrates this behavior as “brutally honest” and “fierce” (hence the way that this particular subject mentions her abrasive traits in referential terms, as if they confer on her an advantage).
If this is how a person dates, one shudders to think at how she would deal with conflict management within an LTR.
@Bastiat
Many women trumpet their masculine traits, take-no-shit bravado, and combative personalities on their online profiles.
@Mule, @J
I like Mule’s matchmaking skills. I especially like the pic of the sweet girl who would be a good match for David.
I wonder if she feels defensive, and ridiculed him for that reason. It’s still no excuse. My generation has utterly failed to teach empathy or, failing that, manners.
@Stickwick
It’s unbridled female narcissism! Obviously, women joking and boasting about ways of rejecting men are promoting themselves as having the luxury of being highly selective. I guess it’s the female version of preselection.
While I agree Meg’s language is needlessly offensive, I cannot see these two together as a physical match unless he’s quite tall. The age difference is a killer because he really does look younger than 25. If he was 35 and had some crows feet then the match would be more reasonable.
Showing up wearing a suit to a first date is far too formal IMO, the most I would suggest is a sports coat. He needs a healthy dose of sunshine and a new haircut, although the quality of her photo is far, far better then his. His photo is very overexposed. Her’s is something I would expect from the online dating world, off-axis and potentially quite deceptive.
She does come across as quite bitter, in a sad rather than angry way. I’ve dealt with women like that and I actually commend her for turning him away rather than using him as an emotional tampon and discarding him. From her language I would guess she isn’t emotionally ready for dating.
@Susan
When men are portrayed as the enemy by some feminists then there is no room for empathy, only focus on women’s issues and the negative things that they see in men, whether real or imagined. A similar thing happens with some bitter MRA types but they are a much smaller and less-influential cohort. It’s kind of like comparing Sauron’s sphere of influence to Saruman’s* in the Fellowship of the Ring when Saruman only had a few Uruk-Hai.
Demonizing an opponent is a tactic that dehumanizes them and makes them deservng of being conquered. We can use a lot more empathy these days if we want to engender trust and healthy relationships.
*my using them as a metaphor ignores that they were allies
Susan @ 82:
I think it’s fine to date several people at once, as long as all the cards are on the table. Personally, I would not date a man who’s having sex with other people because that tells me his sexuality is waaaaayyyy too unrestricted for my taste.
That’s interesting but a pain from a man’s perspective because suitable single women become available for only short periods of time. In the current market, a man who doesn’t push the physical intimacy quickly is emasculated.
Basically women come in on a parabolic trajectory and then it’s a toss-up as to whether his gravity well can capture them in his orbit or not, either temporarily or permanently. The rate at which dateable women enter a man’s gravity well is probably a Poisson process, which means whenever a man is on the dating market the amount of time he has with n = 1 is going to be roughly the same as n >= 2. How can a man deal with that?
Right now, I’m in the situation that I have two really nice relationship-quality ladies interested, one I’ve known for eight months and another two-years. It’s a given that I cannot give either woman a rain-check. Literally both opportunities popped up last week. My personal view is that this sort of stuff is third-date discussion, before the physical side of things takes over.
@Hans Solo
“I do not need to dehumanize my enemies in order to justify killing them; the fact that they are my enemies is justification enough” Miguel Primo de Rivera
On that note, it is said that while he lay dying and waiting for “Last Rites”, the priest told him he must first forgive his enemies, he responded; “There is no need Father, I have had them all shot”.
@HerrKaiser
Sounds like quite a bad ass.
The leaders of a violent or oppressive movement may not need to dehumanize the enemy, either because they already have or because they are simply willing to do whatever they must. However, to get the masses to go along, masses that are made up of reasonably decent though impressionable people, dehumanization is a very “useful” and perhaps necessary tool.
Referring to HanSolo’s commet @103
No shit! Plenty of Fish, OK Cupid, that is the common setiment usually worded like “I’m blunt and a honest and if you can’t handle it too bad” or in some cases they just say fuck off LOL.
When the internet first became semi-mainstreamed in the late 90′s and people actually used chat rooms, I was able to meet some pretty cool girls on there and got a few dates. It was good for me seeing as how my interests aren’t very mainstream and I could find a like minded date relatively easy, however I don’t know what changed.. myspace or facebook maybe, but that is all pretty much gone now.
Meg looks like a future Bridezilla if she ever gets to that point. I find her concern for him to be condescendingly silly. She sure likes to take her power to put men in their place. How dare the guy even bother to show up to such antics? Oh well. Her age was certainly used to her advantage. She had no time to waste, but she still gets a free meal.
Re: date several people…
It’s okay ONLY if you’re dating several people up to the 3 date limit. Beyond that, you’re stringing them along, which is a breach of dating ethics. You shouldn’t date someone who’s wrong for you just because you’re afraid of being alone. You have to pick someone or let them go. The other person might be prevented from seeking a new person if they were under the impression that this was an exclusive relationship.
The alternative is everyone knows they are casual booty calls.
@Society’s Disposable Son
On POF there’s a roughly 2-3 to 1 male to female ratio amongst the 20-something and early 30′s crowd. Add that to the already heightened demands of some women and it makes online dating kind of difficult for men but should provide some good opportunities for women.
That said, I have had reasonable success with online dating and met the best gf of my life on there–unfortunately she moved to another continent and the distance kind of doomed the relationship.
@Madelena:
Oh, sure. Numbers matter. Dating a hundred people in one month is different from dating 3 in 6 weeks.
Likewise.
Well, late is relative I suppose. I found Roissy when I was 23, and two years later I was able to get my first date. It could be worse I guess, but for me that’s about 15 years with no girlfriend, sex or even a date. Was way too long.
As much as you are comfortable with, I’d say. You don’t have an obligation to say anything, but the less you say the more they might be suspicious.
Oh, and to put something in quotes you write “” in front of the quoted text, and “” after it.
@Susan:
Not rude per se, but would it be very hard to say something in the line of “It’s nice talking to you, and I’m not sure if you have any further ideas, but just so you know, I’m already married.”?
I know this could lead a woman open to replies about how “you’re deluding yourself” or “you’re not that how”, etc., so I suppose it’s a question of whether you are willing to put some of your feelings on the line to protect his.
Then again, saying you’re married might not necessarily deter a guy…
As long as you don’t throw a drink in his face and scream for help I guess it’s alright…
Sorry, didn’t mean to bring back any bad memories.
Fully understandable.
Makes me a bit sad to think about actually. I have this nagging feeling that the women I’m most interested in for a LTR share your feelings on this.
I suppose I mostly run with the Don’t ask, don’t tell-policy. If I get the feeling the girl share your values re unrestricted sexuality, then I make sure that I have at least mentioned any other ongoing prospects. Though my current personality should have hinted at that already.
I’d also like to second much of what Mr. Nervous Toes said just above me. The times I meet interesting women doesn’t come uniformly distributed.
I have however, created a small (so far) mess recently. A girl I met at a party who seemed quite interested in me. She asked explicitly if I had any girlfriends (Yeah, in plural. But in context that was mostly a joke). In my drunken state I wanted to please her and said I didn’t, which technically is correct.
But I have been seeing another girl sporadically for a few weeks, and we have had sex, though the whole situation is undefined. I haven’t contacted the girl from this weekend yet, as I want to set the record straight somehow and haven’t decided how yet. My current plan is to invite her on a date and mention it then, but I’d appreciate hearing if someone thinks that’s the wrong move.
@Mike
Yes, the feeling of being overwhelmed is coming from the amount of attention.
I didn’t go nuts over the exponentially increased amount of attention I received from men. Simultaneously enjoyed it (big ego boost and validated all my efforts) and was wary of it at the same time. I also don’t go to clubs or places that facilitate that kind of “craziness”.
The reason I don’t want to tell the men I’m dating about my weight history is that it ties in to dating & sexual history. My sense of privacy is strong and was a source of anxiety for me when talk turned to relationship and sexual history, considering my sparse one. I would embellish my past, make it a little more colourful than it is but then quickly moving the c0nversation along.
Occasionally, I even contemplated having some flings in order to have experience more in line with my contemporaries.
Truly, it is more advantageous for a woman in this SMP to have a slutty past than a near-virginal one. At least where North American men are concerned.
My unblemished past is a big plus with men from more traditional cultures.
I would embellish my past, make it a little more colourful than it is but then quickly moving the c0nversation along.
Occasionally, I even contemplated having some flings in order to have experience more in line with my contemporaries.
Truly, it is more advantageous for a woman in this SMP to have a slutty past than a near-virginal one. At least where North American men are concerned.
I’ll be blunt…I think you are wrong here and worried about something you have no reason to be worried about and are actually considering a mistaken path such as “having flings to get your experience in your line with contemporaries”.
If you were a man and a former nerd/geek/loser I’d advise exactly that….try to get some short-term flings. But you aren’t. You are a woman who has vastly improved herself both physically and personality wise. 95%+ of guys even say attractive guys who do have history are not going to “penalize” you for your lack of dating/sexual experience. I think it would be a mistake to try and get some “experience under your belt” for its own sake. I had some real issues when I found out my fiancee had a ONS. I was able to get past it but make no mistake it was a negative to get over not a positive to be attracted to.
I don’t know the extent of your inexperience. Some guys *might* and I emphasize might be concerned about that if it turns out you lack certain “skills” but that can be made up for with enthusiasm and just overall interest so I really wouldn’t get too freaked over that. This is going to sound strange but you might watch some porn (tamer stuff, not the hardcore crazy stuff) and even some lesbian porn if necessary just so you can get a handle on technique if necessary without having to actually go out and have a multitude of encounters just to acquire that.
@Hans Solo
“”I always tell my female friends (and myself and my male friends too):
1) Up your value
2) Make your demands more realistic
3) Market yourself
I have no idea about point 2 in your case but it sounds like you’ve really done number 1 and are trying different avenues in number 3. Good luck and please continue to share.“”
Thanks Hansolo.
I have done 1 and 3, but need to calibrate 2. I have standards and the pool of suitable men that meet those standards is actually quite large. Do I need further calibration? Not sure. I am not picky about things like height, looks, etc.
@Darsh
I would error on the side of disclosing less up front with the wkd girl until you are interested in becoming serious or sense she is. You haven’t even gone out yet. I’m not saying to be deceptive, rather, until you’ve gone out a couple times with the girl from the weekend and you both start thinking you might want to get exclusive then you could talk more.
The reason for this is that by telling her too much you may come across as seeming like you want a relationship with her and that may trigger her run-for-the-hills mechanism. You don’t sound like a cad to me. I think you can date both and as you get to know them more, if both are still showing interest and you’re interested in both then pick one and get more serious with her.
If you really want to disclose something then I think that you could say that you’re still seeing other people but that you’re not intending on being an eternal bachelor when the right girl comes along.
I just think you don’t need to mention anything. After a date or two with her and before sex with her then I would either decide to stop seeing the first girl (if you’re not into her) or pick the first girl and don’t have sex with the 2nd. This is getting-into-a-relationship advice and not player/harem advice.
“Truly, it is more advantageous for a woman in this SMP to have a slutty past than a near-virginal one. At least where North American men are concerned.”
Umm, what? Nah. Listen to Mike C.
A girl isn’t going be judged negatively for a lack of sexual experience. Period. Like Mike said, there little that can’t be made up for with enthusiasm. (*if* a guy expressed concern)
She must have been disappointed too because she told me she forget something in her car and to wait in line. She never came back.
OMG, Han. That is so rude. What a lack of social skills on her part!
@SW
I like Mule’s matchmaking skills. I especially like the pic of the sweet girl who would be a good match for David.
And they really looked like a match!
I wonder if she feels defensive, and ridiculed him for that reason.
It’s got to be embarassing to blind date in public and have it not work out as expected. She got someething she didn’t anticipate (his very youthful looks which would have made her look like she was dating a kid, couldn’t get a guy her own age, etc)) and was concerned about how that made her look and affected her SMV. Unfortunately, she didn’t consider how shallow and petty her remarks will make her look to future dates. Her screw up, not his.
@Susan
Thank you for your kind words.
I do think that there has been a coarsening of the culture, resulting in pretty repulsive uncouthness coming from both genders, but just sounding worse when it comes from women.
Re promiscuous, crass women getting married, it happens all the time. The ones that don’t get married are the ones that choose not to, because they are holding out for Mr. Big.
If they decide to get married, it is done soon. The girls in university and business school who were unrepentant, cheerful bed-hoppers were the ones who ended up with rings. Yes, some of the more sedate girls ended up in relationships as well but there was no penalty for being slutty, for both men and women.
@Zach
Thanks for the update. I feel like giving you a 6 Weeks Pin!
I was just discussing this with young people who graduated in ’11. Some are still very much into that college mindset, others are over it and ready to move on to the next phase. Right now, it’s the women who’re ready for a change, but based on your timeline, perhaps the guys will follow in the next year or so. In the meantime, the binge drinking has abated at least somewhat. There are certain guys (and a couple of girls) who get shitfaced every single night out, but most of them are drinking less. All in all, it looks like maturation to me.
@ Mike C and @ Cooper
It was something I merely contemplated. Knowing myself, I know I can’t do flings – hell, I get attached after merely kissing!
My next area of development is the escalation/showing vulnerability thing. Weak in that area.
I don’t see why you’d say this woman is a bitch. She seems terribly normal to me. This is how women usually are, when the guys aren’t looking.
Oh. Wait. I get it. You’ve got to pretend that she unusual for that “Not All Women Are Like That” line to work. Good luck with that.
@Madalena
What a breath of fresh air that you find such a large pool of eligible men and many or some of them are showing interest. That’s great.
Most young women need to be less picky, many are reasonably picky and a small percentage are not picky enough.
You sound like you’re more in the reasonably or not-picky-enough range. If you’re finding way too many men that you like I would recommend two things. Of course, you’ll have to decide if these ideas make sense for you.
1) Do go out with a lot of these guys and really try to figure out what you like with these guys. Don’t lead them on but I’m a believer in sincere opposite-sex friendships. Try to find each guy’s best qualities and let him know what you admire about him while also being clear from the start that you are following more of a strategy of friends first, then a relationship with the right guy. You can also think of your female friends. Maybe a good guy that isn’t right for you would be a good match for a friend and by increasing your circle of sincere friends and positive interactions you all benefit.
2) If you really are not picky enough then think more carefully about what you really want–I can’t believe I’m giving this advice. lol Just don’t go overboard and turn into a super-picky entitlement princess!!!
With the much larger amount of and presumably higher SMV/MMV attention you’re getting, are you finding it hard to discern who’s sincere and who’s not?
Also, as Desiderius says, get more carousel, less cock. And I’m not saying you’re getting cock. You don’t need a bunch of casual to be more attractive to men. Some men, especially that are looking for casual, will feel weird if you’re a virgin but a lot of good, sincere guys won’t see that as a deal-breaker if you’re great in the other areas. And if you’re not a virgin then I wouldn’t try to up your N at all just for the sake of being more attractive to men. What I would do is sensually bask in your sexual fantasies and get more in touch with your sexual side so that sensuality just naturally radiates from you. Once you’re with a guy you really like, pre-sex, you could let him know one of your haven’t-done-yet-but-would-love-to fantasies. As long as he knows you’re into him and progressing towards sex I think that hearing that and having it implied that it could be him would be a real turn-on. At least it would be for me.
@HanSolo
That process of dehumanization has inspired terrible crimes wrought against “the other.” I need not catalog them here, but surely we may learn something from history.
@Mr. Nervous Toes
I’ll happily cosign this. And in fact, if everyone is cool with things being sexually open and unrestricted, that’s fine with me too. Where I draw the line is in concealment or deception. I also hold each party responsible for setting their own boundaries. As sleazy as I think “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is, it’s up to the concerned party to ask. Only the most deplorable cad or slut will lie at that point.
@Darsh
I think clarifying the casual nature of the current sexual relationship is a good idea if you don’t intend to become exclusive. Hookup culture basically means that most women know they have to put out casually before the guy becomes their boyfriend. I don’t know if that is what this woman wants, but if you know you don’t want it, it’s only fair to clarify, especially if you want to start seeing someone else as well.
What is very wrong, IMO, is using one or the other as some kind of leverage to excite interest or even pressure a woman into have sex.
@Madelena
This is awesome! May the odds be ever in your favor! Seriously, if you were to add any filters, they should be character-related.
Wait, I’m confused. I thought Darsh was wondering what to say to the woman he’s already having sex with. Was he concerned about saying something to the new woman?
During this period of self-transformation and personal development, I became aware of some things that were common knowledge to a lot of people, but weren’t to me at the time:
An educated woman is a good thing but it is important to not emphasize education over other qualities.
One time my friend and I, when we were both contemplating online dating, skimmed the profiles of women similar to us in background (highly educated, late twenties and thirties). It was our version of competitive analysis.
Both my friend and I found so many of these women frighteningly intimidating….and I remember thinking if WE find these women so intimidating, then how do the men feel?
That was a big clue in terms of how I crafted my profile. My education was revealed in the criteria listing and it was apparent in the way that I wrote that I am quite educated. However, I didn’t wave my education and career like a bludgeon – it was quietly understated.
Unfortunately, my friend didn’t catch a clue. Her profile was dry and started with her career status. I begged her to allow me to re-write her profile for her, making it fun and flirty but she vetoed it hard. My strategy was validated when my inbox went into meltdown and hers remained static. Even then, she still refused to allow me to edit her profile.
Yup, every post hides a nefarious female motive. You got me.
” bed-hoppers were the ones who ended up with rings.”
Unreserved women who understand how men think know that they will need to lie, and they do
@HanSolo
1) Do go out with a lot of these guys and really try to figure out what you like with these guys. Don’t lead them on but I’m a believer in sincere opposite-sex friendships. Try to find each guy’s best qualities and let him know what you admire about him while also being clear from the start that you are following more of a strategy of friends first, then a relationship with the right guy. You can also think of your female friends. Maybe a good guy that isn’t right for you would be a good match for a friend and by increasing your circle of sincere friends and positive interactions you all benefit.
My response:
Your first suggestion made me laugh out loud. I actually did try to set up a guy I dated a few times with a good friend of mine. The fella and I didn’t work out but we kept in occasional touch. There was some time lag between the time I dated him and the time I tried to set him up with my gorgeous friend as I sincerely thought they would be a great fit. She was interested and he was into it at first (at least he led me to believe he was).
But then he refused, saying “So you’re going to pass on to your friends your sloppy seconds?”.
Needless to say, that took me aback.
I think it was because we dated (no sex occurred) instead of developing a friendship first.
“women know they have to put out casually before the guy becomes their boyfriend”
Unless the guy can confirm that she always takes her time and is thus worth courting
Not rude per se, but would it be very hard to say something in the line of “It’s nice talking to you, and I’m not sure if you have any further ideas, but just so you know, I’m already married.”?
Or just drop the husband and kids into the conversation as in”Oh, you like auto racing? So does my husband.” It’s less awkward than the “Did you think I was coming on to?” conversation.
Then again, saying you’re married might not necessarily deter a guy…
At that point, his hurt feelings are irrelevant.
@Madelina:
“An educated woman is a good thing but it is important to not emphasize education over other qualities.”
Like IQ.
It’s hard to tell how intelligent someone is by how “educated” they are these days.
@Madalena
He probably liked you more. I once had a crush try to set me up with her “gorgeous” roommate (who was less gorgeous than she was) and I felt crushed.
I think I am commenting a lot!! But I forgot to answer this post:
@HanSolo
2) If you really are not picky enough then think more carefully about what you really want–I can’t believe I’m giving this advice. lol Just don’t go overboard and turn into a super-picky entitlement princess!!! With the much larger amount of and presumably higher SMV/MMV attention you’re getting, are you finding it hard to discern who’s sincere and who’s not?
My response:
I am finding that most men express their intentions quite clearly and sincerely, even when they try to hide it.
I’ve been approached by players, clearly stating their desire for casual sex up front. These men tend to be extremely, extremely good-looking (thus validating my inherent distrust of very handsome men) but there is very little subtlety in their approach. I merely turn them down and off they go on their merry ways.
One player has actually turned into an arm’s-length friend. He moved and the distance helps.
Mostly though, the men do seem interested in something longer term.
It’s me that needs to figure things out.
HanSolo’s two pronged strategy is a good one. I like the one on focusing on friendship first then getting into a relationship.
@ SW
Honestly, I have to agree with Ecclesiastes. At first I was surprised that you complained about Meg’s nuclear rejection. I didn’t find anything particularly bad about it. This kind of attitude from women is so common that I would have accepted it as normal and not considered anything wrong with it.
@Madelena:
“I think I am commenting a lot!! But I forgot to answer this post:”
One of the features of this blog is it’s comment intensity.
It’s actually a little too commenty, but at least the comments are normally generally related to the subject at hand.
@Susan
I’m going to mimic others and agree. I didn’t think she was particularly harsh.
She wasn’t even particularly rude.
Not being attracted to someone is not rude. nor is stating that to others. To them, yeah, best to be indirect.
The only negative part is that she did it in a public article. Thats weird.
@Susan:
“The culture turns out way too many of these types. Feminism, I’m looking at you. But where the hell were this girl’s parents? Maybe they’re also jerks, but it sure does seem like the percentage of bitches in the population is rising fast.”
Yeah.
The morons let the Dark Feminine loose (again).
Of course, they had no idea what they were doing, but still it’s a mess that has to be cleaned up.
At least the Dark Masculine is not currently causing problems. Which is nice, I suppose. A century of that was way too much.
@Madalena
Please continue to comment because of both the changes you’ve made and the healthy outlook you’re bringing to dating. I think you can offer some good insight and advice as you also learn from others on here. On a comment about nuclear or even TNT rejections it’s nice to see someone who’s not like that.
I think that men and women can benefit more than they might think just be starting to make small changes that move them up that 0.5 or so in SMV/MMV and move themselves from being borderline into the interesting category of someone else that was maybe 0.5 higher than them. Of course, if you can up yourself 2 pts then all the better but I don’t think most can unless they have some really bad anti-game (men) or have a lot of weight they can lose.
@Stickwick
From what I have observed in the last 10 years especially, I have come to the sad conclusion that we women definitely are not the more sensitive, empathetic sex we consider ourselves to be. A few years ago, I listened horrified as the friends of a young female relative gleefully went through a list of their favorite ways to reject guys at bars. Most of the rejections were downright cruel. Some were just nasty — this one girl claimed she would stick her finger up the nose of a guy who had the nerve to come over to talk to them, if he was deemed unworthy. Can you imagine the outrage if a man did this to a woman? Had this whole scenario been reversed — guys chuckling with glee about deploying those same tactics on women who dared to express interest — these girls would have agreed that it was nasty and uncalled for. Somehow, they had great difficulty seeing this as nasty and uncalled for when they do it.
My response:
That is horrible. Unfortunately, I have heard similar stories on my end, of the pride some women take in rejecting in supremely humiliating ways the men who dare approach them. I do think that a slight majority tend to err on the side of politeness/indifference but a significant minority do tend to cast a rather large shadow over the perceived behaviour of all women.
Very unfortunate.
She definitely could have written about her date in a more courteous and tactful tone. Even if he wasn’t her type, there was no need for her to blow him out of the water like that.
In my opinion, after looking at their photos, they do have a considerable difference in physical SMV. Maybe she would have been nicer if the man was more compatible with her, in that regard. It’s hard to say though. She may have found something else to complain about then.
*Off topic*: I need a little advice. Does anyone have any insights/tips/suggestions for dating a performer (Actor, musician, dancer), especially with regards to dealing with their frequent traveling/busy schedules?
@J
The thing that bothers me most about the article is how highly he rated the date and how anxious he would have been to continue when it should have been obvious to him that she was a poor match for him and not interested anyway. I’m always amazed at how many men misread a woman’s level of attraction (and I’m curious as to why that is.)
My response:
That caught my eye too and I share your wonderment at men’s lack of discernment re a woman’s level of attraction.
Is the stick wick I’m reading about the one VD was so vehemently defending a week or so ago?
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