Three years ago I wrote about a feature in the Boston Globe’s Sunday magazine called Dinner with Cupid. It’s a weekly feature – people apply to get set up on a blind date with someone who seems like a good match, and then debrief separately with the paper, issuing a letter grade and stating whether they’d like to go out again. Once in a while the couple gets on really well, they give each other an A, and say they’ve already got a second date planned. I love it when that happens. Most weeks, though, it doesn’t work out too well. Whattya gonna do? That’s life.
What surprises me, though, is the frequent rude, demeaning and dismissive criticism leveled by one party toward the other. It’s rare that both parties call the date a dud – much more common is the A vs. C- Post-Mortem. Who doles out the C-’s? You guessed it – it’s almost always the woman. To be fair, there have been some real jerks among the guys – one guy said, “The minute I saw her across the room I knew this was a no go. She is the opposite of my type.” Rude, right? It sticks out in my memory, because he was one of the few men to behave with so little empathy.
In contrast, the women often imply that the Boston Globe matched them up with someone well beneath them in SMV, and they voice their displeasure at being misled and having their time wasted. This drives me crazy, and Mr. HUS, who usually gets to the paper before I do on Sunday mornings, often warns me with a “You’re not going to be too happy with Dinner With Cupid today.”
Let’s take yesterday’s column as a case in point. Right away, it’s clear there is a mismatch:
For starters, she’s 29 and he’s 25. Re SMV, the haircut is killing him – that and the suit make him look geeked out. In contrast, she’s submitted a photo that suggests she’s down for anything. In fact, they’re both sky divers, which appears to be the basis for the match in the first place. In any case, let’s assume that despite their mutual love of dopamine chasing, they’re not a match. Fine. Compare and contrast how they describe the date to the Globe reporter:
Meg Lotterman:
My roommate and I went to a bar and I had a drink. It didn’t help.
I arrived at 8; he was already [seated] . . . right then and there I assumed he was going to be a stick- in-the-mud.
David Nash:
I was a little anxious, but excited to see where things might go.
Before she sat down, she had already asked me her first question, and it just continued from there.
Meg:
He looked way too young. He also was dressed like he was going to go to an interview. I immediately asked him what he does for work, because I wasn’t even sure if he was old enough to work.
(Note from SW: The restaurant is fancy and expensive.)
David:
We talked about everything from travel, to parents, to work, and even Groupon.
Meg:
He did not seem to be the adventurous type. He did seem to talk about his mom a lot…He was like a baby to me, in regard to dating, and I felt like I had to protect him and make sure he didn’t know too much about who I really am, because he might be scared of women forever.
I just felt so bad for him, in a sad-puppy way, and I figured I’d make his night and give him a hug and go our separate ways.
POST-MORTEM:
DAVID A
MEG C-
David:
There was enough interest on my part. I was interested to see where things may go.
Meg:
This would never work for me. I’m not attracted to guys who are almost 10 years younger than me or who look like my dorky brother. He’s just a sweet boy and he seems like he has a good heart. He has potential, I think, for the right girl, maybe someone more his age and like him in that sweet, sweet way that I just don’t possess anymore due to my experience with men.
Can you spot all the bitch moves by Meg? I exclaimed “Bitch!” ten times while reading the story.
There’s a wackness in the world of dating. I don’t even know who to blame for the behavior of women like this, and I don’t care. If this were my daughter, I would practically die of shame, and then I would say the following to her:
“No one is demanding that you settle for someone you don’t find attractive. You applied to Dinner With Cupid, and you gave them the right to choose a date for you. The worst case scenario was that you would spend two hours having dinner with someone who was boring or unkind. That did not happen.
You had dinner with an interesting, good guy who didn’t make you tingle. Get over yourself. You are self-centered and mean. You have no empathy if you can say such unkind things knowing they’ll be published and will surely embarrass him. You are a spoiled, entitled brat and I am ashamed of you.
You are not worthy of commitment. At the rate you are going, you will spend your 30s and 40s chasing bad men and you will deserve whatever they dish out.
This young man dodged a bullet.”
The bad news is that women like Meg give all of us a bad name and a bad reputation.
The good news is that if you can distinguish yourself from women like her by valuing the worth in others and asking yourself what you have to give, you will stand out as extraordinary by comparison.
{ 2465 comments… read them below or add one }
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@ Susan
Being in a high status class of society naturally makes people dominant. It’s one of the reasons dominance is attractive.
“I think GBFM is a genius, and also hilarious.”
What’s “genius” about him?
Madelena October 18, 2012 at 11:44 pm
@Bastian Blogger
I suppose that one of the many lessons that can be harvested from this thread is that otherwise-good girls who have had the proverbial wedding weekend fling should be very careful about how said encounter is described to a man, should the woman ever be compelled into an impromptu confessional by her LTR partner.
My response:
Maybe.
I’m drawing a different lesson.
Despite all of the sound and the fury about unrestricted women, how good beta men are viscerally disgusted by them and how it’s better to remain chaste, etc…it seems that my initial observation bears out.
It is better, at least for the purposes of getting into a relationship, for a woman to have experience, even among red pill men.
My philosophy is to watch what people do, instead of what they say, and actions seem very incongruent with what a lot of men on this site are saying. I see a lot of rationalizations (“hamstering?”) to try to achieve some congruency but actions matter.
For what’s it worth, I do see it as commendable that a lot of you were able to see the humanity and totality of your girlfriends and wives, and not miss out on happiness by choosing to focus only on their sexual pasts.
But then don’t try to sell a false bill of goods to the girls on the sidelines about how men are disgusted to their core by such women, only to end up selecting them for LTRs and marriage.
——————————
BINGO!!!!
Madalena you nailed it!
Plus, its not like ADBG’s girlfriend did anything that many young American women out here themselves have not done. In fact, I’d say her trajectory is not uncommon. A few STRs and a few ONSs? Pfft! Or was it just one ONS?
Of course, because he was a virgin he might prefer someone closer in number to his own, and that’s fine, but again, he’s only 25 and not looking to get married right now, so what’s the big deal?
The take home message from this entire story is exactly how you called it.
In other words – there is no take home message, at least not for us women.
At most it is: men, like us, are human too.
Restricted women, especially attractive ones, don’t need IOI’s, and in fact they can give the wrong impression.
I’m going to disagree with with this with the caveat that we are using the same definition of IOI (such as a smile and eye contact across a room). I think it may even be more important with an especially attractive woman where there is going to be an intimidation factor or the assumption she might be a bitchy ice queen. The IOI basically says to the guy “It is OK to come approach and talk to me” without the guy having to worry he is going to get nuked.
INTJ,
“Ramble is right. You have a propensity to speak in riddles. Sometimes, I understand what you’re saying and enjoy the verbal sophistry. Other times, I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re saying.”
Uh, that’s the opposite of sophistry. If anything, I could stand to be a little more sophisticated, or as VD puts it, to utilize rhetoric over dialectic when necessary, but persuasion is rarely my goal.
My natural idiom, the poetic, falls into neither category, but has its own value. I see strange and unexpected connections – it’s what I do and what I can add to the discussion. I’m never intentionally obscure or unclear, but that which interests me is interesting exactly because it was not seen before, or not seen clearly. I’m what was once called a seer.
Sometimes I succeed in bringing new-found clarity, sometimes I fall short. Obscurity is never the goal.
@ Desi
Just looked up the meaning of sophistry. Looks like it doesn’t mean what I thought it meant. I meant poetic.
Susan Walsh October 18, 2012 at 11:37 pm
Nobody can “cheat” at 17.
As a mother whose 17 yo kids have been cheated on, I disagree. Betrayal, broken promises – they are possible from early childhood on. The stakes do increase, of course.
———————————
You mean teens sit down and have “the talk”? When did that start? I suppose if one asks, “will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend” and the other agrees, that might act as a minor version of the adult “talk”, but other than that, what does teen “commitment” look like?
“The IOI basically says to the guy “It is OK to come approach and talk to me” without the guy having to worry he is going to get nuked.”
Well, they don’t need to mask natural ones, but creating artificial ones in likely to be counterproductive. A woman like the one Susan describes can’t afford to be this passive – that’s the problem.
“My natural idiom, the poetic, falls into neither category, but has its own value. I see strange and unexpected connections – it’s what I do and what I can add to the discussion. I’m never intentionally obscure or unclear, but that which interests me is interesting exactly because it was not seen before, or not seen clearly. I’m what was once called a seer.”
You think highly of yourself.
Well, at least you did not say “I’m what was once called a ‘warrior’ “.
The warrior meme is so overdone on the internet.
“Well, they don’t need to mask natural ones, but creating artificial ones in likely to be counterproductive. A woman like the one Susan describes can’t afford to be this passive – that’s the problem.”
The thing is she probably almost never sees the type of man she would want to get pro-active for. Susan said she’s a 10. She wants a man in her looks range. They are extremely rare.
Susan,
“I feel like a failure. I adore GBFM – he came here briefly but has not returned.”
He doesn’t hate you enough.
“I think GBFM is a genius, and also hilarious.”
The Joyce of the manosphere.
My philosophy is to watch what people do, instead of what they say, and actions seem very incongruent with what a lot of men on this site are saying. I see a lot of rationalizations (“hamstering?”) to try to achieve some congruency but actions matter.
For what’s it worth, I do see it as commendable that a lot of you were able to see the humanity and totality of your girlfriends and wives, and not miss out on happiness by choosing to focus only on their sexual pasts.
But then don’t try to sell a false bill of goods to the girls on the sidelines about how men are disgusted to their core by such women, only to end up selecting them for LTRs and marriage.
Madalena,
Astute observations. For my part, since this subject has come up repeatedly, I’ve been pretty consistent in saying many guys will overlook quite a bit when it comes to sexual history.
Long time ago, I had a comment where I outlined the three factors which is the sexual history itself, lying about it, and price discrimination. Me personally, I could never be with a woman who had severely price discriminated. If she had a number of ONSs and then made me jump through hoops for weeks, on some level it is an affront to the core of the guy’s masculinity. Lying would be cause to dump as well. How can I be with someone who thinks it is justified to lie to me about something so important? Will she lie about finances? Her spending? Ultimately, the best bet is to be upfront and honest, some guys will stew, and then ultimately come to terms with it. So yeah, sexual history is overblown as a filtering mechanism. Except for Abbott, I’m not sure what other guys are hard selling this?
” So yeah, sexual history is overblown as a filtering mechanism. Except for Abbott, I’m not sure what other guys are hard selling this?”
Ted D. INTJ.
My natural idiom, the poetic, falls into neither category, but has its own value. I see strange and unexpected connections – it’s what I do and what I can add to the discussion. I’m never intentionally obscure or unclear, but that which interests me is interesting exactly because it was not seen before, or not seen clearly. I’m what was once called a seer.
Sometimes I succeed in bringing new-found clarity, sometimes I fall short. Obscurity is never the goal.
Desi, there was once another commenter here who wrote that way, the poetic. At first, I couldn’t make heads or tails of it until I could decode it and then I thought it was brilliant writing. Sometimes I get what you are saying, sometimes not. I’m still working on decoding you
Sue: “I don’t mean to be unempathic. I confess I am still struggling to understand this betaization process”
I encourage everyone to answer this statement with agree or disagree: “I feel completely free to have sex with *anyone* who consents to having sex with me, whether it is a one night stand with a stranger, a 50-year marriage, or anything in between.”
If women feared judgement from the herd for pursuing their sexual goals, beta men fear, judgement from the women themselves… even if the consent. Crazy, I know.
When I was 17, I bought my car and asked a crush out onto a date. She gleefully accepted, but I thought she was just humoring me, and was not attracted sexually. (I didn’t realize then how women will not isolate themselves with men they don’t like.) We went to dinner, drove to a beach, climbed onto a boat and chatted. Eventually, she told me me: “it’s okay if you want to kiss me”. I tamped back all the raging desire and pecked her, despite wanting to make babies right there, because I thought escalating against a Chrisitan girl was Evil. Later, I found out she was as “unrestricted” as possibly be. Not a virgin for many years. She “dated” me while juggling a few college boyfriends and FWB’s, and I was invited to be one… just too stupid to realize it.
See now? Failure to escalate when given a huge green light. It was a sin, it was evil, it was bad. Thank you, church, thank you, Mom, thank you feminism.
Well, they don’t need to mask natural ones, but creating artificial ones in likely to be counterproductive.
What do you mean by natural versus artificial? I’m thinking very basic stuff like we are in a lounge and lock eyes and she smiles at me.
A woman like the one Susan describes can’t afford to be this passive – that’s the problem.
I agree with that. She is generally going to only be approached by men with literally over the top douchebag confidence if she is as hot as Susan says she is. Less confident or not super good looking guys are going to screen themselves out immediately. There isn’t enough information to know just how passive she is being and how unrealistic her expectations are.
See now? Failure to escalate when given a huge green light. It was a sin, it was evil, it was bad. Thank you, church, thank you, Mom, thank you feminism.
It’s even harder when you simply don’t recognize the colors because you were never taught them.
@ OTC
Atheist son of a sex-negative feminist here. Thank you, mom.
The Joyce of the manosphere.
You think so too? Good, then I’m not crazy.
@Mike C
Lying would be cause to dump as well. How can I be with someone who thinks it is justified to lie to me about something so important? Will she lie about finances? Her spending?
My response:
How would you know she lied?
I know we live in an age where people tend to spill everything about themselves but what if you met an unrestricted woman with a high sense of discretion. Kind of like a classy slut
Although from what I’m gathering here, even if she is found out, she can mitigate the fallout with pretty tears and a heartfelt expression or two of regret for past misdeeds.
INTJ, there are many parallel paths to chumpdom.
@ Madalena
I don’t think any of the examples here involved women lying. Well, lies of omission, maybe. IIRC, the most egregious example of lying by omission was with Jesus Mahoney, who broke of his engagement.
Since beauty is a topic, what do you think of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOz0DHoMsq8
@Madelena
I agree that if a girl is hot, she likely won’t have a shortage of guys who are willing to overlook her past behavior, even if it makes them uncomfortable causes them distress.
Honestly, if sustaining relationship/marriage value is the ONLY reason an attractive girl is avoiding casual sex… I’ll go on the record and say she might as well slut it up at that point.
Megaman at 1103,
I’m in agreement, especially on the M/R pact aspect.
One thing though:
“Very astute. Calling it “casual” is an oxymoron anyway. No doubt repeated sex under non-monogamous circumstances has a long-term impact on the attitudes and personalities of both men and women.”
I think the causation may run the other way. If one understands the benefits of an LTR-orientation and has developed strategies for pursuing it, casual sex will not be something one is interested in in the first place. It’s the idea of “getting away with” a couple ONS’s that is problematic, not the ONS’s themselves.
Again, drinking Drano will in fact make one sick, but unless one is sick in the first place, one will not have a thirst for Drano.
How would you know she lied?
You might not. Maybe you marry and live a lifetime and never find out. But that is a very high stakes poker game to play. I’ll mention Jesus Mahoney’s case since he made his triumphant return, but he broke off his engagement because she had lied and he found out. The well known commenter Deti’s wife lied to him and it seems like at least some amount of marital strife and turmoil was borne of that lie.
So you could lie and get away with it. Sure. People get away with all sorts of lies. I’ve often believed that only a small fraction of insider trading cases are caught and prosecuted.
I know we live in an age where people tend to spill everything about themselves but what if you met an unrestricted woman with a high sense of discretion. Kind of like a classy slut
No doubt, they exist. Not every slut comes marked with the “tramp stamp” on her lower back (plus these days the slutty tattoos have moved to the front around the hips)
Although from what I’m gathering here, even if she is found out, she can mitigate the fallout with pretty tears and a heartfelt expression or two of regret for past misdeeds.
Everyone has different tolerances for what they can forgive and forget. I can only speak for myself
“Exactly, and I’ve never known this to be true. I haven’t seen it. Both guys and girls can be so awkward when they are young and inexperienced! But aside from a normal amount of hesitation, I’ve never witnessed what I would call fumbling and bumbling in person.”
It’s all about attitude. Fumbling and bumbling can be fun. I’ve certainly had some difficulty unhooking a bra or two – good opportunity for a shared laugh. If you’re worried about fumbling and bumbling, you’re doing it wrong.
Again, the Ironwood article on solipsism comes to mind. Worries about how you’re doing in the moment is missing the point.
@INTJ
I am not referring to the women in the examples listed here. Not at all.
I’m just speaking in general.
Maybe because I’m coming from a traditional, patriarchal society where reputation is of paramount importance, but it never fails to surprise me when I hear of women openly confessing their numbers to their men.
Even women raised in the West, like myself, would not actually state a number to her BEST FRIEND, much less a man. Everything will be left very vague.
To this day, in my circle of closest friends, most of us from diverse backgrounds but all of us 1st generation or children of 1st generation, the details of what goes on in the bedroom with boyfriends or husbands is not discussed. Not in depth at least.
For the most part, I like the West’s culture of openness and honesty but I think in some cases, discretion is best for all involved.
As a second generation Indian American, I know about the culture of discretion. While Indians might be willing to discuss past sexual history with a prospective partner, it’s rather taboo to discuss with anyone else. At the same time, though, the traditional expectation is that women at least are going to be virgins when entering marriage…
@Desi
Very good analogy. The raw data show a pretty sizable chunk of the population, men as well as women, that just aren’t very predisposed to “sex without trust”. Which flies in the face of the oft-repeated canard that the only guys who disapprove of careless sex are the ones who aren’t having it. Tell that to Ted, or any father who’s raising a daughter. Plus, the guys who don’t seem to matter in these discussions are the very same ones who do turn that kind of thing down (i.e. walk the walk). Self-selection works wonders sometimes…
@Jimmy Hendricks
I agree that if a girl is hot, she likely won’t have a shortage of guys who are willing to overlook her past behavior, even if it makes them uncomfortable causes them distress.
Honestly, if sustaining relationship/marriage value is the ONLY reason an attractive girl is avoiding casual sex… I’ll go on the record and say she might as well slut it up at that point.
My response:
I’m responding to the inconsistent claims made here about how unrestricted woman are low value as LTR or marriage material but in spite all the angst they generate, they still get into the relationships with good quality men, even men who decry and denounce that behaviour.
I agree that our behaviours and values should be internally generated and for a lot of us, they are. I was never part of the hook up scene nor have I ever had a ONS because of the values inoculated in me growing up and real concern as to how this will impact me emotionally/spiritually.
However, isn’t this place where the phrase “incentives drive behaviour” is popular?. It speaks to the truth that we are social animals and our behaviours and values can be externally defined.
What is the incentive for a young woman to remain chaste, other than her values, when she sees her more unrestricted sisters land the men she wants?.
@INTJ
Yeah, the expectation that the bride be a virgin. Familiar with that too.
What is the incentive for a young woman to remain chaste, other than her values, when she sees her more unrestricted sisters land the men she wants?.
I guess there isn’t one, but if she is restricted then why not? This whole restricted having one-off activity doesn’t make a lot of sense for me. It would be like me who is 100% heterosexual deciding I wanted to have sexual relations with a man just for the heck of it. Why would anyone engage in activity that is against the way they are supposedly wired?
@Mike C
Good points.
You mentioned Jesus Mahoney.
JM seems to be one of the very few here congruent with his beliefs and deeds but he dropped that consistency with his current gf.
He seems to have chosen to see the joy and value she brings to him, instead of focusing on her sexual past, and that bodes well for their future life together. Kudos.
In the end, for all the sound and fury expressed here, most of you do see your women (if not all women) as human beings greater than the sum of their pasts.
Other than internal values, there really isn’t an incentive. Like I said, if fear of losing marriage/relationship value is the only reason she’s remaining chaste, she might as well slut it up that point.
I’ve gone on record here saying that girls who have casual experience have lost most of their relationship value FOR ME… but I also recognize that I’m an outlier in that regard. There’s a sizable number of guys out there who are operating from a scarcity mindset and would stick it out even if they’re uncomfortable with it.
The only caveat is if that girl meets/falls in love with a guy that thinks like me, and then gets rejected. I’d imagine that could be pretty painful.
But if her counterargument is “Odds are I won’t meet/fall in love with a guy that thinks like you,” I really can’t disagree. The odds are on her side.
@ OTC 1360
I feel you on that big time. I’ll share my epic fail…
The first real date I had was a girl from the next town over. Mutual friend set us up. She was at least a 7, played softball, athletic not chunky at all but bigger framed, great rack (dd’s) and a redhead (my weakness). We “dated” for a week then ended up in an empty house unsupervised. She was on her bed and asked me to kiss her. I was so pathetically nervous I wouldn’t even sit on the bed next to her, let alone kiss her. To be fair she didn’t dump me then despite my complete failure. We never did kiss, but she slowly initaited cuddling and stuff… this whole debacle lasted 3 weeks start to finish, and the finish just happened to be on my 18th birthday, when by shame on her friend’s part she admitted she was sleeping with another guy and had no interst in seeing me anymore. At least she got me a gift.
The only plus side was I got my heard my dad say something I’d never heard anyone say before when I told my parents what transpired and my dad’s immediate reply was “what a cunt” to my mom’s total horror.
That experience made me pretty damn gunshy as well. A couple months later I met another girl and we hung out and had a great time… however when she brought up liking me I said I just wasn’t interested, which was a huge lie, the truth was I was scared shitless… Hell, other than the female singer of the band I was in at the time, I didn’t talk to another girl for about a year and a half, when I decided slumming was better than being a 20 year old virgin.
I would kill to have not gone through this. The embarrasment and double dose of shame was bad enough, but red pilling and knowing just how pathetic it all was is almost the worst part. I don’t know how I swalled the nice guy message hook line and sinker and other guys wouldn’t bat an eye escalating.
*swalled is supposed to swallowed.. ugh
Magdelena “What is the incentive for a young woman to remain chaste, other than her values, when she sees her more unrestricted sisters land the men she wants?”
There is no incentive except what you personally want to do. I personally refused to get physical before the emotional connection happened, including kissing and all “kino,” but I managed fine because that was my own choice. I was not getting the men who expected differently, but I couldn’t do the hook up thing. My values didn’t say casual sex was a sin, however. I wasn’t religious.
Mike C, I think sexuality is not so clear cut. Lots of men have homoerotic experiences but are purportedly straight. Alcohol, drugs and culture are also very powerful, especially combined. I think comparing casual sex to draino is not quite right. It’s more like junk food. It’s not healthy, and when too many in society partake there is a growing problem, but it holds some wide appeal.
We eventually got back together, and the message has apparently sunk in this time. I gave her this website to peruse through. I don’t know what she read, but the last time we discussed anything, she said she feels bad about her flings now, because she thinks it devalued her relationship with me and made it harder for me to trust her.
Unless she went through some sort of religious conversion, she’s likely just telling you what she knows you want to hear. Be wary.
It would nice if there was a girl tree you just went to and grabbed like low-hanging fruit.
Plenty of girls on the girl tree, my friend. They make new ones every single day.
Furthermore he is polite and does not believe that women are the source of all that is Evil. I cannot stress how much of a good thing that last part is.
I think you greatly underestimate the dark attraction of the hostile male. Being treated with contempt is like catnip to most women. It’s the ultimate DHV. It is very easy to get any woman desperately attempting to prove herself to you, even women you haven’t addressed in any way. My friend once picked up a purple sash he saw lying on the ground, put it on, and began acting as if everyone around him was a bloody peasant – when asked about the sash he said it was Leif Ericsson Day and he wore it in honor of his father, the King of Norway. Women were eating up like you would not believe. Taking pictures, trying to get his attention, it was hilarious.
That’s what I want. That’s what I’ve always wanted.I refuse to settle for anything less.
Then what on Earth are you doing with your actor? That’s settling for a lot less.
Honestly, I do not think it’s easy to be that pretty girl.
People see that the pretty girl has lots of options. People forget that women hate making decisions and accepting accountability. It is very easy for a pretty girl to be paralyzed by her options until time and age reduce those options. Then she doesn’t want to settle for her now-lesser options because she still thinks she should be able to choose her previous options… and you can see where this tends to lead to Kate Bolick country.
My natural idiom, the poetic, falls into neither category, but has its own value.
Most definitely. My first thought was your connection to the Roman foreign policy and the modern university system was that it was brilliant. My second thought was to wonder how, considering how much I’ve written on education over the years combined with the fact that I’m finishing a very large novel based loosely on the Marsic War, I’d manage to miss making that connection myself. But the poetic has a power all its own that neither dialectic nor rhetoric can touch.
@ SayWhat and Ramble,
SayWhat said:
Later he explained:
Humor is an excellent way of spreading memes, norms, and ideas that devalue men (e.g. Everyone Loves Raymond). This “good humored” joke, nevertheless, causes men to laugh at themselves and internalize that they are “odd”. They come to define themselves in a low value manner. The very fact that they find it funny and not offensive means that they have bought into the idea they are “odd”.
Contrast that “joke”, with my not-funny changes:
Q: Will I get a girlfriend?
A: Probably not. There are few women on campus and there is tough competition for them, given that campus men are among the best and brightest in the country.
Q: Will I get a boyfriend?
A: The odds are good, because there are many more men here than women. However, you may have a tough time choosing among these high-achieving and desirable men.
See the big difference? See how it creates a very different frame and image of the men – for both the men and women?
If the genders were reversed in the above “joke” and it was about women being odd, feminists would be up in arms. This is the reason. They KNOW that such jokes and ideas get internalized and affect actual perceptions of worth and value. They have carefully eradicated all such comments that could even hint at lowering a woman’s worth in society (called sexism). In fact, they are now eradicating any comment or idea that could even accurately label a woman’s worth as anything other than amazing (called discrimination/tolerance). Meanwhile, they do the reverse with men – pushing comments and concepts that devalue and label men, to lower their worth, self-esteem, and social power. The net result is that both men and women move toward thinking (being brainwashed) that all women are super wonderful and beyond scrutiny – while guys are odd, creepy, and fumbling.
So, these “jokes” are a battle for your mind. They are propaganda. Guys take notice. If a joke or statement would be attacked by feminists if the genders in it were reversed, PAY ATTENTION. It is hijacking your mind and devaluing you. You are being socially devalued with every little joke. This is the reason women don’t find you “decent guys” sexy anymore. Think about it… Wouldn’t a woman be more likely to find a CalTech guy sexy as he was described in my Q&A above, versus as “odd”? That’s the problem.
For women who are lamenting that there are “no good guys”. Or, who see men marrying low value women instead of you. THIS is the reason. This social engineering and propaganda has made men feel worth-less. It has also made them feel that they have to settle for what they can get, rather than choose what they want. They have learned it would be wrong of them to look down at promiscuous women as partners (sexist), or expect she lives up to standards (discrimination). So they “man up”, do the “noble thing”, don’t “judge her”, and settle for much less than they want.
Such propaganda has also made women see the “average” guy as worth-less and much below average. As a result, a normal guy isn’t sexy anymore. That is why women on OKCupid rate 80% of guys as below-average. They have been conditioned to think that. Most don’t even consciously see how skewed that is…because their perceptions have been changed. You can’t find a “good man” now, because they are literally de-valued and invisible to you – thanks to “jokes”. Their actual worth hasn’t changed, only your perception. But, unfortunately, it is perception of worth (not actual worth) that creates attraction.
This is a serious power play on the SMP folks. Artificially over-inflating women’s value. Artificially lowering men’s value. The only people winning on this are low value women, who now have the power to get a decent guy to “settle” with them. The good women are sitting out. The rest of the guys are going PUA or MGTOW.
This is not a sustainable situation. It needs to be acted upon before the SMP bubble bursts. And action starts by paying attention to things like these little jokes…and not laughing. Again, it also starts by noting that it is hurting the majority of BOTH men and women.
Okay. I will get off my soap box for now…
VD,
“But the poetic has a power all its own that neither dialectic nor rhetoric can touch.”
Veritas
Some Beauties yet, no Precepts can declare,
For there’s a Happiness as well as Care.
Musick resembles Poetry, in each
Are nameless Graces which no Methods teach,
And which a Master-Hand alone can reach.
If, where the Rules not far enough extend,
(Since Rules were made but to promote their End)
Some Lucky LICENCE answers to the full
Th’ Intent propos’d, that Licence is a Rule.
Thus Pegasus, a nearer way to take,
May boldly deviate from the common Track.
Great Wits sometimes may gloriously offend,
And rise to Faults true Criticks dare not mend;
From vulgar Bounds with brave Disorder part,
And snatch a Grace beyond the Reach of Art,
Which, without passing thro’ the Judgment, gains
The Heart, and all its End at once attains.
@ Susan Walsh
This is actually a really old “getting girls” line – Pretty women want to be told that they are smart, while smart girls want to be told they are pretty. Neither characteristic is more honorable, noble, or “telling” when the guy notices it. The only difference is what area of praise/attention is scarce for the woman. That is what she will prioritize, look for, and be attracted to.
Essentially, it comes down to habituation and novelty. If everyone gives her praise for being beautiful (which they will), she will eventually discount that praise. In the long run, she may even despise it, or feel “entitled” to it. However, praise about her “inner self” is rare, scarce, and novel. Therefore, to her, it is worth more. It also distinguishes the guy as “different”.
Not so for her more homely sisters. Because they are not distracted, guys look below the surface with her. She’s waiting for a guy who finds her “beautiful” though.
That is why it is no harder to get an attractive woman than a non-attractive one. The words are different, but the mechanisms are the same. Simply give them a novel reward that others do not – and you’re instantly special, unique, and valuable yourself. So, I’m not surprised it “meant a great deal to her”…nor that she dated them.
For the women…just because a guy tells you something different, special, and scarce, doesn’t necessarily mean he is a better catch. Many guys who say the “right” thing and are not affected by beauty are very experienced, players, or cads. Many who fire off an awkward beauty complement are good guys – and perhaps less likely to objectify you in the long-run. This stuff is confusing! But, that’s why we’re on here talking and learning
Men display in many ways that have nothing to do with approaching.
A woman who constricts herself to men who approach has neglected to choose at all.
@INTJ, HanSolo, Mike C
That’s not as hard as I thought it would be. Thanks.
“Just curious, say a couple is in a relationship, and the guy actually thinks it has marriage potential, but the woman is pretty sure he isn’t husband material but is good enough for now. Is she ethically obligated to let him know that? If not, why not?”
He wants to be married -if she doesn’t she should give him the chance to find somebody who also wants to be married.
@Cooper
“Cause, yeah, most of the guys approaching will like that, in some fashion – in that they’d like to sleep with her. It’s kinda the whole reason guy do it.”
Funny, I was talking with my stepfather about guys, lust and approaching and I really wanted to say “well how else are we supposed to end up with people who are attracted to us?”
@Bastiat Blogger
LMAO at one of the greatest mental pictures ever.
Also at what Ramble has said/read. I actually clicked that link. Is it bad I was sad when nothing loaded?
Also at VD’s ‘Norwegian’ buddy.
Great posts by Dr Jeremy at 1384 and 1387.
@ADBG and Susan Walsh,
ADBG wrote:
Susan Walsh Wrote:
ADBG – I’m weighing in late on this issue. As a result, I’m not sure I have the whole story. But, I do see a discrepancy between the advice the men and women are giving you.
The women, like Susan above, are essentially saying she is girlfriend material, but probably not wife material. At 25, they are expecting you to date her, have some fun sex, keep your eyes open for better, and have fun until it is over. That is why Susan says “Just be careful about offering permanent commitment – hopefully at 25 you are not tempted.”
Some men on here are telling you to dump her because they fear you will indeed be “tempted” to offer a permanent commitment. They fear scarcity will set in after awhile and she will seem like a good option. They are concerned you might start rationalizing away your standards and start making exceptions for “her” past indiscretion that you don’t agree with. They worry that sex and love will come to cloud your judgment and you’ll end up compromising your worth and “settling”. All of this, they know, can come from just dabbling with a woman you are “unsure” about for too long.
I am not questioning your character. I don’t know you that well. But, I do ask you to question your own resolve. If this woman does not meet your criteria for a long-term commitment right now, then resolve yourself to the decision that she will never be your wife. Don’t rationalize, find reasons, and look for exceptions later because you have some growing feelings. Keep the decision rational, factual, and final. Either she has conducted herself in a manner that you would be proud to make her your wife, or she has not. If no, then that is final and unchanging.
From there, you can certainly have a not-too-serious STR/LTR with her. Gaining experience as Susan says. BUT, that depends on your resolve and ability to stick to your initial no wife decision. Otherwise, letting your decision change is the reason some of the guys above “settle” and get “phantoms” of stress about their wife’s behavior. You will not be most satisfied that way. So, if you are going to let the decision change in your mind with time, sex, and feelings, then it might be best to drop her now.
Or, go date a few other girls at the same time to keep your options open, so you don’t get one-itis, feel scarcity, and settle. If she isn’t “the one”, then you should still be looking for her anyway (the one who DOES fit the wife criteria without fudging the score). So, have fun with this one…but keep shopping too!
@ Madelena, Mike, and Jimmy Hendricks,
I wanted to comment on the discussion and some thoughts of Madelena. I am taking them a bit out-of-order, but I hope still within context:
The parts of your quotes I put in bold above answer the rest of your questions not bolded. Guys do not keep to their standards because they are socially shamed into thinking they don’t have a right to judge women. When they don’t judge, they “man up” and “settle” for less than they desire, then they get “kudos”, support, and love from women like you for doing it (e.g. reinforcement).
So, you very statements and beliefs are creating the problem in men that is frustrating you. If you find it problematic that men settle for “sluts” rather than chaste women, then it would be wise to not tell them that the behavior is “commendable”. Nor is it a good idea to reframe “how unrestricted woman are low value as LTR or marriage material but in spite all the angst they generate, they still get into the relationships with good quality men” – into “He seems to have chosen to see the joy and value she brings to him, instead of focusing on her sexual past, and that bodes well for their future life together”.
Here is the secret to alleviating your confusion too. Many men have not “chosen”. They have been beaten down to settle for less than what they want, by a whole host of propaganda, male-bashing, and devaluing. They still WANT women who fit the criteria they talk about, but they feel that they do not have the worth or social power to obtain them. Furthermore, they have been told that they cannot judge based on their desired criteria anyway. Finally, they are reinforced and praised as wonderful men when they do “look past” these things that they care about. As a result, they are rationalizing, coping, and making do with settling, for the social approval. Hence the angst.
If you would like a behavioral analysis… Please see the Theory of Planned Behavior. It will tell you that behavior is more than just a function of what a person wants (their attitude). It is also constrained by social norms (what others approve of doing) and control beliefs (whether the person thinks they have the ability to do it). Given that, many men still have the attitude that chaste, pleasant, feminine women make the best wives. You are hearing that expressed. BUT, they are shamed by social norms to not express those attitudes or use them in mate selection. ALSO, they are devalued as mates and dis-empowered in society, so they don’t believe they have any control over their choice in a wife (they get whoever “picks” them). THUS, their behavior doesn’t match their attitude, as you see.
Incidentally, this behavior and attitude mismatch is also painful and anxiety-provoking. That is called cognitive dissonance. It is the source of all of these “phantoms” and tortured emotions above. It is also why guys who do this spend years carefully dismantling their old attitudes, so they are no longer discrepant with their behavior to marry. That is how dissonance works, something has to change. The marriage is “final”. So, it is easier to work on changing one’s attitude about the wife’s past behavior. This is where the long “turmoil” and her pretty tears and “regret” help in the process. Once they find the reason that her behavior was the “exception” to their no-wife rule, the dissonance is reduced. Nevertheless, it is a horrible psychological process at that level.
Given all that, we generally have two choices:
1) Women can look at the men’s marriage choices only and determine that there are no “penalties” for “slutty” behavior. So, they can do as they please because there seems to be no consequences later. They can also continue to “praise” men for settling behavior and shaming them for standards, perpetuating the current system that allows/encourages women to be uninhibited. Further, they can turn a blind eye toward their future husband’s dissonance and angst about their wife’s past behavior – and lie, avoid, or cry to deal with it. In short, they can be power hungry, shallow, impulsive, non-empathetic toward their husband’s potential needs – and self-centered.
Men also, can continue to perpetuate this system. They can be brow-beaten into not having standards and not being picky. They can continue to endure being labeled socially as low-value, so they have to settle for less than their standards and SMV/MMV would dictate. They can “settle” and deal with their phantoms. In short, they can continue to bend over mindlessly…and then soothe themselves with the Preparation H of rationalization.
2) In contrast, both good men and women can decide this is not working. They can realize it is unfair and exploitative. They can see the propaganda at work, skewing the SMP/MMP. Women can realize that they are not benefiting from men’s lack of standards and lowered value. Men can realize they are being conned by giving up their standards and choice.
Perhaps with this second choice, we can go back to equilibrium. To get there, however, women need to stop reinforcing men for the settling behavior that is hurting and frustrating good women (and start praising and rewarding male choice and selectivity). Men need to realize that settling to get the social pat on the head is a bum deal (they need to stand up for themselves, instead of looking for validation and approval). Then, we can trade fairly with people of our own worth and status, and the majority will be happy.
Oh…except for the low SMV/MMV radfems. They lose out (by being relegated to their rightful status). But, why should the rest of us be so darn miserable and put out, just to let a few, who don’t deserve the good seats at the table, manipulate us into giving it to them? Again, we all need to look at how we’re getting played – men and women – because this isn’t working for most of us. Yet, until more wake up, we perpetuate it blindly (even as it hurts us)!
@Jimmy Hendricks
“Honestly, if sustaining relationship/marriage value is the ONLY reason an attractive girl is avoiding casual sex… I’ll go on the record and say she might as well slut it up at that point.”
+1, I’ve been trying to figure out how to say this for two days now
What makes a chaste women better is not the actual low N but the mindset that kept her N low.
@Desi
I agree this is a good strategy, but a beautiful woman has her hands full just filtering, and the males who get up in her grill are the least likely to be good matches. I’ve never been out with this girl and watched her get hit on, but I can easily imagine a scene where some cocky guy in a bar confidently approaches and asks her whether she thinks his tits are bigger than hers (still reeling). She rejects in a nuclear fashion. Every good guy in the bar now perceives he has no shot whatsoever.
The beta friends like her from afar. AFAIK, not a single one has ever tried to even make a small move. This is probably why she spends so much time with them. She is regularly approached by overconfident males.
@Plain Jane
It was the same problem, just looked at from two different perspectives there – his and mine. We resolved it in two ways: I heard what he wanted – sex – and gave it to him. I made a decision to initiate more and never reject his initiating. He heard what I wanted – a husband in a more positive frame of mind – and he changed jobs within a year. We bounced back pretty quickly.
Did I miss something? Was Say Whaat judging the morality of the ONS? I thought she was explaining that alphas run false beta game for the express purpose of getting it in with restricted girls. This is very true on campuses across the nation every September and October.
It’s good marketing. The Douchebag routine for sluts. The Boyfriend routine for non-sluts.
“What makes a chaste women better is not the actual low N but the mindset that kept her N low.”
Thus N remains and shall remain a powerful wife-material definer. Plus the actual low N makes men universally feel really really good, especially when showing her off to family and friends.
.
Ha, I hope you’re not talking about Yohami. When Escoffier couldn’t understand a damn thing he said, I realized there was no point in trying. Total bullshit. Besides, his underlying motives were clear enough. He’s of the Feral Female school.
I admit it took me a while to see that the Emperor was buck naked.
“Even women raised in the West, like myself, would not actually state a number to her BEST FRIEND, much less a man. Everything will be left very vague.”
Yes, out of shear fear of being judged as gluttonous and that has nothing to do with that so-called mythical “patriarchy” thingy that gets bantered around by women (only women mind you) as a cover up.
@ VD
ROFL.
@Abbot
“Thus N remains and shall remain a powerful wife-material definer. Plus the actual low N makes men universally feel really really good, especially when showing her off to family and friends.”
I think recently we’ve taken a correlation and started viewing it as causal.
High N causes marital strife, when in actuality high N is correlated with marital strife. (Marital strife= catch all of bad results.)
Its legitimately possible that a high N women experiences a change in internal biochemistry with each successive partner leading to increased marital strife.
What seems far more likely is that the mind-set and personality traits that individual has are what allowed the high N to occur AND what cause marital strife.
A women who wants to do casual but is not to retain MMV is just as likely to cause marital strife with any future partner, theres merely less of this type of women due to a multitude of factors ranging from societal influence up to inability to control urges.
PS My posts reflect a distaste for N attained via casual. I expect I’d be pretty chill with a women wit N=9 or 10 gained via boyfriends (in a few years, to young for that to be acceptable yet). Whereas for casual I’d accept one, maybe two mulligans preferably none (which enough women have that this is a non-issue).
@Madalena
Wanted a virgin, married a virgin. Dumped two women who were wife material because they mislead me about their N.
Congruency.
Because there are great incentives to do so. You want a boyfriend? Well, to get that you have to travel through Lust, the second circle of Hell. Nearly every relationship I know of among young people today – around 50, I’d say – began with uncommitted sex. The women took a leap of faith and prayed they wouldn’t be P&D’d.
No Sex Before Monogamy is ideal, but I’m not kidding myself. It’s very rare.
@ Susan
If one of them made a move, would she be interested? None of them are alpha on the outside and probably few of them are very good looking. They’re probably right not to approach.
Again, the point is that most good looking alphas just want sex. Regardless of how attractive she is, if she goes for good looking alphas, she’s going to have a hard time finding guys who want something more than sex. So it isn’t her looks that are the problem. It’s her choice of who she’s interested in that results in guys only wanting sex.
“Guys do not keep to their standards because they are socially shamed into thinking they don’t have a right to judge women. When they don’t judge, they “man up” and “settle” for less than they desire, then they get “kudos”, support, and love from women like you for doing it (e.g. reinforcement).”
That is EXACTLY how women save face and not deal with begging and groveling to placate the current man by apologizing and making excuses for their pasts with all the other men. That was the standard approach until the radfems began screeching to women to be proud of “who they are” and put the blame on men for thinking “wrong.” Trouble is, all men, even the men who were merely penises passing in the night, think that way. Most men who were sequestered into this new twisted “marry the slut” system brood in silence; a few of them declare other men are weak as a means to achieving some form of coping therapy.
Well her values will play an important role. If she believes sex is special and best when two people are in love, then she will continually feel shortchanged by any sexual experience that is casual. She will feel disappointed, used, discarded, regretful. This is the most common view expressed after college hookups. I think around a half of female participants describe their feelings this way. And that’s all hookups, not just P in V.
If you’re not wired for casual sex, you’re not going to enjoy it. Period. And most women aren’t wired for it. It would be nice if remaining chaste was rewarded by most males, but even if it isn’t, a woman can’t easily adapt to another sociosexual orientation.
The analogous male experience is that lots of guys want relationships, and they don’t see women rewarding that in men.
Everyone is looking to the 20% for guidance, which would be funny if it weren’t so deadly.
Two observations I’d like to make.
The stories shared here feature girls, even some promiscuous girls, offering outright opportunities to betas. The females were attracted, the betas did not/could not respond. It’s not that no one wanted a beta – the beta guy did not allow himself to go there.
I cannot even imagine how much disappointment and heartache went down between people who were actually attracted to one another because one or both parties were scared to admit any kind of vulnerability. It’s easy to see how the Principle of Least Interest became the guiding principle in the SMP.
Supposedly, lots of actors in gay porn are “gay for pay.” No problems getting it up, though.
@Dr Jeremy
I agree with everything you said about the role of popular culture in devaluing men, but here’s the problem: There’s an excellent chance that the Caltech brochure was written by men, and it was certainly enthusiastically approved by men.
In this thread, my calling out female behavior that would definitely earn scorn if the male had said it – elicited a big meh from many of the guys here.
Women standing up to feminism isn’t going to be anywhere near enough if men are buying into their role as victims.
@Dr. Jeremy
This is why I pay you the big bucks!
Seriously, that’s gold right there. Thanks for sharing that insight. There is a lot of value in having a trained therapist who is Game friendly around!
@Susan
“I cannot even imagine how much disappointment and heartache went down between people who were actually attracted to one another because one or both parties were scared to admit any kind of vulnerability.”
This needs correction.
I’ve never had problems undoing bras.
Reason being this;
When I was just starting university, literally first few weeks. I somehow ended up in a girls room undoing her bra over and over again. Practice, obviously.
I practiced looking at it from the back, other times we’d be face to face less than a few inches apart. She would hold up the bra so her tits didn’t pop out every time.
Looking back at that now, OMFG I AM SUCH AN ABSOLUTE FUCKING MORON. SMASH HEAD INTO DESK. RINSE REPEAT. If I could build a time machine I’d go bitch slap myself.
I wanted to make a move but your right, didn’t want to become vulnerable.
However, the reason why I didn’t want to be vulnerable was this lil meme floating around upstairs, ‘good guys don’t do that, she will let you know’.
Physical escalation and approaching are two areas that have been heavily demonized by feminist ideology. Coincidentally they all happen to be two of the biggest problems men experience. (However, physical escalation was way easier to get past than approach anxiety by a magnitude of millions. Horny typically over-rides social programming if theres vagina a few inches away.)
Suffice it to say, one more experience like that and I bought a book specifically on physical escalation. No more problems.
@Susan
“There’s an excellent chance that the Caltech brochure was written by men, and it was certainly enthusiastically approved by men.”
You must realize with this statement how deep the rot has gone.
I practiced unhooking it from the back….
I do realize that. And that’s why changing women’s perspective isn’t going to be enough. Men need to get their house in order first, or at least concurrently.
Susan,
Well, I would only count one of those two scenarios as a true ONS (though they would be likely to see each other again), and in either case there is social proof working for the guy.
I’m going to disagree with you here. I would think that low sociosexuality girls, barring the small minority who would never have a short fling or ONS, would never ‘decide’ they are ready for a ONS. It wouldn’t be a concious decision, but rather an act of impulse due to the perfect storm of circumstances, which you argue against. No harm here, we just have differing opinions.
How can she tell between a manwhore, as you say, and a Tom Brady? Both are alphas, both are good looking, both can be charming. Like I’ve said before, calibration is an amazing tool. It would be evident from the start that a different approach than normal would need to be used with this girl, and things would be a little more difficult, but probably not impossible.
@ Susan
Amen to that. I’m sure the CalTech thing was written by men who have internalized those negative and “odd” self-images. I can take a walk to MIT and see those bright, young men make the same jokes at their own expense. That’s why I boot men in the butt about this stuff too. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and don’t pass it to others either lol! Those memes are not good for you guys…
It is also why I see some good in the Manosphere and “red pill”, because it encourages men to not swallow these negative stereotypes. If only the Manosphere could do it in a self-respect and self-esteem positive kind of way, I would be happier. I would love for men to have healthy self-images again, know their worth, and have standards for their lives. But, I draw the line there…before it swings too far into superiority, bashing, and hatred. I can somewhat see why they approach the issue with the “red pill” hyperbole of “evil women” to help wake men up. However, in the long run those men are not getting healthy, or having their awareness raised…they are just supplementing one bad set of memes for another. That’s why MGTOW and PUA are the only options that seems to come out of that hyperbole.
In contrast, I’m working toward empowered, honest, and fair-trading men and women. So, I’m still sending a “wake up call” to guys. But, it tends to be a bit different
Cooper,
It has nothing to do with intelligence or some special power, it’s simply experience. I have a ton more experience at playing the game and would be much less likely to make a critical mistake.
@ Lokland
You da man!
“If you’re not wired for casual sex, you’re not going to enjoy it. Period. And most women aren’t wired for it.”
Yet they are continually pushed to do it and that makes them even worse off as future commitment targets than the sluts-by-wire
Susan,
It absolutely is common. It’s not like some Woody Allen movie or George Costanza fumbling, but it just isn’t smooth. That’s the best I can put it. When it is smooth, it is seemingly effortless and natural, and fits into the female ideal of “chemistry” and “it just happened”.
Sassy,
No offense taken, as I’m just about the polar opposite of your type. In SWPL land I’m probably regarded as a 9.
They are willing to jump for sex. Very, very few men express a desire to know her personally in any way. This is a woman who is objectified 99% of the time. She wants to be in love, but nearly all the men who approach her want to fuck her and go home. As a man you think it would be awesome to be a sexual object of desire. You do not know how empty that is to a woman.
This is just what I meant the other day when I said there’s a presumption of sluttiness when a woman is sexually attractive.
MikeC,
Would love to, but was only back for the weekend. Was born and raised in Chicago but live on the east coast now.
Lokland…”When I was just starting university, literally first few weeks. I somehow ended up in a girls room undoing her bra over and over again. Practice, obviously.”
That would make a great scene in the movie. In my script, the Lokland-character is terribly attracted to Girl “A” and wants to be positive he won’t mess it up with her. So he enlists Girl “B,” who is his pal, to practice the bra-unhooking with. But Girl “B” is strongly attracted to the Lokland-character, and desperately wants to be unhooked for real.
Optional happy ending: The Lokland-character finally perceives Girl “B”‘s attraction and realizes that she is both nicer and hotter than Girl “A.” (Include scene where the coldness and shallowness of Girl “A” is finally revealed.)
Optional sad ending: More or less writes itself.
Madelena – “My philosophy is to watch what people do, instead of what they say, and actions seem very incongruent with what a lot of men on this site are saying. I see a lot of rationalizations (“hamstering?”) to try to achieve some congruency but actions matter.”
I’ll assume that I’m included here since I rally so hard against promiscuity but married my wife despite her past. (Solipsism!!) You’re newer here, so you wouldn’t know that I’m a recent Red Pill graduate (working on my Master at the moment. LOL) I met my now wife before I found the ‘sphere, and by the time I started to realize all of the possible red flags she was showing, I was already emotionally hooked. At that point, I had to decide if it was worth the effort to dig deeper and see if it could work, or cut my losses and run. We were already living together, with our children. (my son and daughter, and her son and daughter). I’ve said before that if I’d taken the Red Pill prior to our meeting, I probably would have passed. It would have been a mistake, but given the increased risk and mental frustration involved in making things work, it would have been reasonable to conclude it wasn’t worth the effort. Her past still bothers me, but I deal with it because I love her and want to make it work. But, had that emotional bond not already been there, I would have moved on.
So that being said, as much as it drives me nuts, my story actually adds fuel to Tom’s fire. There are indeed some women that despite having questionable sexual pasts can and do form bonds of love and affection. But I’ll tell you this: my wife was very upset when I had to bring her past up and discuss it. She felt terrible that I was so hurt, and surprised that it bothered me at all. And to be honest, *I* was surprised it bothered me so much.
So think about this. Do you want to someday have to look at the man you love and go through this kind of trauma? Will it hurt you to know that someone you love and care about thinks less of you because of your previous actions? Would it really be worth it for a few extra flings (especially considering most women don’t even seem to orgasm during hook-up sex…) I’m not saying don’t do what you want, but I am trying to get you to think long term BEFORE you make those decisions. Because in the end, my wife’s behavior was a direct result of her NOT thinking about the future. She didn’t intend to have one really, and simply lived “in the moment”. There is nothing wrong with living for the here and now, but it shouldn’t be done at the cost of what may come to be.
“But then don’t try to sell a false bill of goods to the girls on the sidelines about how men are disgusted to their core by such women, only to end up selecting them for LTRs and marriage.”
There are no false goods. There are times when my wife’s past just slips into my head, and I’m glad that usually when it occurs she is not around. Because in those moments, I almost resent and despise her. I can’t change how I feel about her past, so I must work VERY, VERY hard to repress how I feel about it. Is that something you want your future husband to do? Do you want him to look at you and remember the guy you had a ONS with on vacation? Do you want him to feel that “skin crawling” sensation when he is lying next to you in bed after sex because in that moment he remembers that he is just the next in the line of men that have been where he is? Because as much as it pains me, that IS what I think sometimes. God knows I don’t tell my wife that, and thankfully she understands that it isn’t something I can help. We both had to make adjustments, and I continually fight those dark feelings. It is getting easier, but only because she KNOWS how hard it has been for me, and she shows me that she appreciates it.
If you don’t care about possibly hurting your future husband, then do what you want. But I have always lived my life with a sense of responsibility to my mate, even when I didn’t HAVE a mate. Because even when I was alone, I NEVER wanted to have to look at my loves face and explain to her how little sex meant to me before her. I never wanted her to feel what I’m feeling now, and I had no idea just how horrible that feeling is at the time. I swear to you I’m not selling false goods. I’m selling what I’ve learned through my own experiences. Maybe most guys aren’t like me, in which case maybe it really doesn’t matter. But, what if you fall in love with a man just like me? (Lord help you if you do! I would run from me. LOL) You can’t change the past, so my advice is make sure you don’t do anything you won’t be proud of later.
If you really want to know about the thoughts that randomly jump into my head about my wife’s past, I would be more than happy to tell you privately. I simply refuse to put that out for all the world to see, because frankly it isn’t pretty, and she is far too good a person to suffer for it. I can’t speak for anyone else, but *I* am not trying to sell a false bill of goods. I’m trying to prevent other men and women from going through what I did, because to me casual sex isn’t worth it.
“Maybe because I’m coming from a traditional, patriarchal society where reputation is of paramount importance, but it never fails to surprise me when I hear of women openly confessing their numbers to their men.”
I asked and expected an honest answer. She gave one, and it threw me hard. My number is a whopping 4, so don’t go thinking she said 25+. In truth she falls under the “max” number on the latest AskMen survey. But, it wasn’t the number so much as how she got a few of those notches that bothered me so much. It didn’t help that the years I spent in a semi-drunken stupor doing the music thing introduced me to a LOT of women that had huge N all of which were acquired by drunken hookups and random sex in bar bathrooms and such. (not saying my wife banged dudes in bathrooms. I’m saying my view of women that are willing to have casual sex is NOT at all pretty.)
“In the end, for all the sound and fury expressed here, most of you do see your women (if not all women) as human beings greater than the sum of their pasts.”
Of course I see my wife as a human being, but she is also the sum of her past. Listen. I spent a few months so upset that I cried myself to sleep several nights a week. I couldn’t look at her without those feelings of disgust bubbling to the surface. It is purely by sheer will that I’m working past this, and I’m telling you that most guys simply won’t do it. And why should they if they have options? My wife lucked out because I was already in love with her before I found all this out. She didn’t lie, but I didn’t ask until far later than I should. JM did what I couldn’t, which is walk away despite that connection. But, my wife was also very honest and forthcoming with her past when it came up. If she had even tried to deflect let alone lie and I found out, we would have been through. In the end my wife is a good person, and she has great character, better than mine in many areas to be frank. (She cares a great deal more about “people” than I do. Some days I barely tolerate “people”.) But all of that, the fact that I loved her, the fact that she is a great person, the fact that she remained married and faithful for over 10 years to a guy that cheated often, was almost completely overridden by the fact that when she was a teen/early 20s she had a few hookups and a FWB. And as far as it goes, do you want to know what it got her? Pregnant and having a baby at 20 years old. Now she loves her kids, but she does NOT want her children to make the same mistakes. And like I said, what finally convinced me she was the real deal is that she wanted ME to handle having “the talk” to her son about women and sex. After all she has done in her life, she feels strongly enough about MY beliefs regarding sex and relationships to want it passed on to her own flesh and blood. I hate some of the things she has done in her past, but I love the person she is today.
PJ – “You mean teens sit down and have “the talk”? When did that start? I suppose if one asks, “will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend” and the other agrees, that might act as a minor version of the adult “talk”, but other than that, what does teen “commitment” look like?”
I started dating my first “real” GF when I was almost 16. I was with her until almost 20. I never cheated, never strayed. I would have married her if it lasted until I was 21. (I didn’t want to marry before I could legally drink at my reception…) THAT is what real teen commitment looks like. It’s a lot like adult commitment, with a lot more immaturity.
“” So yeah, sexual history is overblown as a filtering mechanism. Except for Abbott, I’m not sure what other guys are hard selling this?”
Ted D. INTJ.”
Ya know what? You really have NO idea what I went through to simply “get over” my wife’s past. In truth I’m not OVER it at all. I deal with it, because it’s the price *I* have to pay to be with her. If you or any woman is OK with knowing her husband is emotionally hurt by your past, then have at it. But I’m telling you, if I’d known then what I know now, I would have walked. I love her very much, but the anguish her past put me through was damn near the worst I’ve ever experienced, including the trauma of my divorce. Yes, her past hurts me more than my ex walking out on me. Is that really what you want for the person you will love and cherish someday?
OTC @ 1364 – that is the exact mentality I had growing up. If someone would have simply told me that NO woman will allow herself to be alone with a man she doesn’t want to escalate with, I would have been golden. But that right there is what always kept me from doing so. I was waiting for her to “give me a sign”, when in fact her BEING ALONE with me WAS the sign. How the hell should I have known that?
Lokland – “What makes a chaste women better is not the actual low N but the mindset that kept her N low.”
Exactly
@ VD
I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I know it’s risky, but I’m willing to take that chance. If it blows up in my face, I’ll have no one to blame but myself.
Susan,
OTC,
Yea, an important lesson to all guys is to learn to cater to areas that suit you and target that demographic. In relation to what Sassy said, I’ve never had girls be so cold to me as the few times I’ve been in a hipster bar. While I’ve done well with a couple hipster girls at a house party or social gathering (social proof obv helped), it was the complete opposite at the hipster bars. It’s like they knew they would be shamed by their inner circle if they even entertained my presence, as I’m the total opposite of a hipster.
Already happening. Heck, even the dads would stay home if they could afford it, and many already are. Home business is the way A LOT of young couples are going. The internet, especially youtube, has been a game changer.
That’ll be an interesting social trend. It wasn’t so long ago that most of us made our living while still relating to our families on an all-day basis. Kids worked the farm with their parents; women worked in family business along side their husbands. It was industrialization that took people into a separate “work world” and separate careers. This could have wide ranging effects like closing the generation gap or lowering the divorce rate.
Oh Susan,
I think you sometimes forget that I’m not some overly tan Jersey Shore guido.
Book reading? I once picked up a girl on a bus by commenting on how she was reading Crime and Punishment, which I read in high school.
Chess tournament? Are there even girls here? I was on the chess team in grade school and middle school, although I haven’t played in years and probably suck now.
Wine tasting? I love to drink it, but admit I don’t know much of the intricacies. I want to learn some day though.
Corporate Xmas Party? I did very well last year at my Fortune 200 company’s Xmas party.
But I digress, I do like Megaman’s comments a lot and he would most definitely outshine me on the topics of literature and wine.
Ran into this exact situation this weekend. Was staying in Chicago with my best friend since 7th, another alpha type guy, and his ex-gf (a solid 7.5 mexican/italian mix) of 5 years comes over, whom we have both known since 7th grade and whom he broke up with. They kissed a little behind closed doors, then we all catch up. She has been dating a new guy for 1.5yrs now, and he is a solid beta (computer programmer, stable, nothing stands out too much, and he worships her).
She says “yea, I don’t know about this. He is even talking about marriage, wants to ask my dad and I’m thinking ‘no way’. Some guys just try too hard.”
It’s amazing the direction the conversation went, especially when thinking about all the manosphere memes. I honestly couldn’t make this stuff up. I feel bad for the current bf from the stories I’ve heard, but he clearly has dug his own grave.
@ Jason773
Haha!
No matter how attractive someone is, they will not cater to all tastes. I know that even I don’t do well in certain markets. It’s really about identifying one’s niche and cashing in there.
I’ve always been a sucker for handsome hipster/artsy type men. I also know exactly what you’re talking about, regarding the hipster bars. Some guys come in and look completely out of place. It’s hard to describe, but they have a “corporate” or “frat-like” aura around them. They stick out and I’ve found myself wondering how they ended up in such establishments.
@Jason
“Can’t speak for him, but when you’re swimming in pussy, one correction means Jack Pschitt. He’s smart enough to know he’s not all things to all women. A major correction would require *zero* pussy.”
Co-sign. I often go after taller girls (5’8-5’9 and taller), as a lot of average height guys are too intimidated by them to hit on them. They’re an underserved market segment. As a 6’4 guy, I have no anxiety about a girl who’s 5’11 in heels. Also, as you said, I don’t go after hipster girls at all. I’m the opposite of hipster, and generally can’t stand them, so it’s just not a good match.
Also, in terms of approaching very hot women, I don’t think it requires over-the-top “dbag” confidence to do. You just need to eliminate your fear of rejection. I don’t want to speak for Jason, but I think he can support the fact that even the best guys get rejected by over 50% of the girls they approach, for any number of reasons. You just can’t take it personally, and most of the rejections won’t be nuclear at all. Although where guys really get it bad is when they can’t tell when a girl obviously isn’t interested, and then they long overstay their welcome.
I’ll also say that even the most inveterate players get sick and tired of combat dating. My friend Joe (pseudonym) has been on a total bender since his breakup in May, and in that time period has slept with probably 12-13 girls (raising his number from somewhere around 13 to 26+; he was in a few LTRs previously). Recently, he’s been talking about how utterly sick he is of the game-playing that goes into these situations. Things like “I just want to text her, but she hasn’t texted me in 24 hours, so I have to wait. It f*ing blows”. Principle of Least Interest, I believe, is one of the worst things to have happened to the SMP. And honestly I believe it’s largely womens’ fault. I don’t blame women at all for most of the failings of this SMP, but for this one I do. PLI evolved as a response to women hating sycophantic men who showered them with attention. I’ve never, ever heard a man complain that a girl was too enthusiastic about hooking up with him, or that being used as a reason to not see her. So the men began showing less interest, as the women responded to that, and down the slippery slope we went. That honestly was one of my favorite parts about being in a relationship. You can relax a little. As I’ve said before, being single is mentally exhausting.
No Sex Before Monogamy is ideal, but I’m not kidding myself. It’s very rare.
Cripes, but that makes me happy that I have sons and not daughters. This is a very high risk situation for young women. It’s time for young women to go Lysistrata.
Jason773 – “I feel bad for the current bf from the stories I’ve heard, but he clearly has dug his own grave.”
and if he ever gets a clue (that is takes the Red Pill) it will be very rough when he figures this out on his own. Looking back I can clearly see all the mistakes I made. (well, I hope I see them all. I might still be missing a few, but it is a work in progress) Although I’m glad to have the knowledge to fix those issues, it does truly suck because once you recognize it, you HAVE to own it. You can’t fix it unless you admit to yourself just how badly you behaved, and admitting ones own failures is usually pretty damned traumatic. If it wasn’t, we would all be much more honest about our own stupidity.
@Susan
“Book reading? Hmmm. Chess tournament? Hmmm. Wine tasting. Hmmm. Corporate Christmas party? Hmmm.”
Two different spheres. Most of the players I know could spend 2 hours discussing The Scarlet Letter or geopolitics in Asia, and work for PE, hedge funds or banks. Now obviously that’s due to my social sphere and the guys in it, but all of that knowledge almost never comes into play when out. Believe it or not, most pickup attempts on even extremely intelligent girls involve nothing but small talk and witty banter. Learning doesn’t even come into it.
Szuan-deery, I am inha bar. I haawe durnk ojlee ome beer. I pormise. Now i haf seeem the garl ov ma dreamz. I wand do prusope marriaje too her, and i havee two rings from Reggie’s Kids Store : the bluewe 1 end tha penk one. Whech 1 i must use ? Snicerely. Marellust
That is EXACTLY how women save face and not deal with begging and groveling to placate the current man by apologizing and making excuses for their pasts with all the other men.
Abbott, are you saying that, if you are in a relationship with any women who is not a virgin, she owes you an apology for losing her virginity before she met you?
Zach,
Man, being 6’4″ is a solid gift. I’m actually short for my family at 6’0″, as I have 5 uncles all over 6’2″. I usually go for shorter petite girls, but my last gf was 5’8.5″ and I definitely liked it.
@Jason
You’re right, it can be almost impossible to tell once you’ve graduated from college and moved to a city. The cads start with a fresh blank slate. The only option is to delay sex until you have vetted the guy in every way possible. Because most players and cads are pumped about their status, they leave quite a trail of crumbs if a woman is paying attention.
Ted,
Well the guy is going to get his heart broken sooner or later, although I don’t understand how he doesn’t see it. She has already cheated on him once with my best friend, and another guy, whom my best friend met when out one night. She clearly isn’t interested in marrying him, and I don’t understand how he doesn’t see that.
My guess is that he thinks marriage will ‘change’ her and make things great, but that sentiment couldn’t be more clueless.
OTC, Hansolo
The stories of the betaization process a were depressingly familiar.
The word Chump can really get a reaction in me. (I even get angry with myself, when I use it on myself – hahah)
@Dr. Jeremy
I share this concern, and as you can imagine, I am very resistant to allowing this strain of thinking to “infect” HUS. There have been several flareups here that I am certain had female readers closing their computer windows in droves.
I regard this as my biggest challenge as a blogger.
Ha, I hope you’re not talking about Yohami. When Escoffier couldn’t understand a damn thing he said, I realized there was no point in trying. Total bullshit. Besides, his underlying motives were clear enough. He’s of the Feral Female school.
I actually find GBFM somewhat easier to understand than Yohami.
I second Zach’s comment
“I often go after taller girls (5’8-5’9 and taller), as a lot of average height guys are too intimidated by them to hit on them. They’re an underserved market segment.”
Exactly. And a man can easily get a tall girl 1 or 2 points higher, at least, than if he had approached someone shorter.
To men who need to hear it, I wouldn’t worry about them being masculine. They are masculine if they have a manjaw, deep voice, a square shape, muscles and an adams apple.
Not to mention that some are more soft spoken and gentle than a shorter girl, because they can’t really get away with being loud, demanding and aggressive and guys seeing that as adorable and non-threatening.
If you can look past that initial reaction (shock=looking away and looking mean), it’s more likely. Usually when non-cad guys DO approach, I am so shocked and they have to pick up my jaw off the floor. It takes me a good 2 minutes to recover. It’s a shame. That recover time has usually meant it was too late for me.
That makes sense, I was picturing some caricature.
@ Ted D
I want to personally thank you for your profound honesty and intimacy with us here about your experiences, frustrations, and “phantoms”. It is very helpful for other men to know these things, particularly because they are shamed for even thinking them. Many end up thinking they are weird or crazy for having them, because they don’t know other guys feel the same way. It is bad enough having those feelings – without the addition of thinking you are wrong and alone in having them.
Given that, although I try to stay professional and not talk about the details of my relationships publicly (as I am not anonymous), I do want to tell you that you are not alone either. I have been there and had all of the same fitful nights. If we meet up in person sometime, I’ll tell you the whole deal over a drink.
Yeah, that would be a tough one, haha. You could just say, “she’s filming a documentary on sexually successful and dominant males.”
Thank you, Susan. That is precisely what I was saying.
@ Sai, did you see Susan’s golden advice here?
“And both of those boys were sweethearts. I think you’re right, she needs to be more natural, and avoid being glamorous. My guess is that when she is fresh faced, she looks cute but not “hot.” I suspect “hot” telegraphs alphas, but cute and wholesome is more appealing to betas.”
For your makeover it might be great to remain feminine, but as modest as possible. There’s already plenty to see in terms of your looks and shape, and “hiding it” in modest female clothing will definitely make you more approachable to your target market.
Might be good to wear a little makeup, turtlenecks or plain shirts, and long skirts. You do not have to break the bank either. A lot of what you can find for your makeover is at thrift shops. I sometimes can’t believe the amount of $$$ I’ve seen women spend on clothing, hair, and accessories, all of which make them look unapproachable and high maintenance.
Co-signed.
Dr. Jeremy, every single guy who read that booklet chortled at that part. They knew the odds of getting a girlfriend were low the minute they sent in their application.
By the way, I know that my comments can be very crass, but I assure you that I am indeed a woman.
@ Susan Walsh,
I’m still half-way following this conversation thread. I’m also still a bit uncomfortable with this:
I also went back and read your article “I Married a One Night Stand”, as you suggested. I wouldn’t say that you just “took a leap of faith”. In fact, I think there are a lot of behavior nuances here that we are missing, which give women control in the outcome of the hookup and also show differences in their character. Specifically, I see three such areas, where women can behave to limit their hook-up risk and maximize the LTR possibility (and also be less severely evaluated by men who care). These assume the women care about their sexual reputation and are goal-oriented looking for a LTR too – rather than being STR-oriented, sex-positive, and just having fun with wherever they land.
1) Screening – Getting to know a man over time as a friend first is much less risky and requires less faith than falling into bed with a stranger. Also, having selective and defined criteria for sex partners can maximize the chance a ONS turns into a LTR, much better than simply sleeping with whoever asks and hoping for the best. Both help the woman “pick” a guy who is more likely to eventually turn into a LTR, even if their physical relationship starts with no-promises sex. Having sex after being friends first and/or having set criteria for sex partners is also more palatable to future men, as it shows greater character, discretion, and self-control.
2) Escalating – Lust and hook-ups can take many forms. The first physical encounter does not necessarily have to go all the way to intercourse. Women have options of stopping the activity at making out, mutual masturbation, oral sex, etc. Rather than going “all in” with intercourse, they can step it up over time. This tests the man in an incremental way and risks less on her part all at once. If he doesn’t call after a blow job, having intercourse would not have turned him into a boyfriend. But, having another full “notch” on her belt may be more traumatic for her, and might be judged less favorably by others. So, better to only have “faith” and “risk” a kiss or bj, than go all in – especially when the results are no different (or possibly even worse for full sex at time #1).
3) Follow-Up – Does the woman choose to pursue and even “game” the guy after hooking up, or just passively see what he does? A woman who actively pursues a relationship after a hookup is more likely to get one. She also feels better about herself if it doesn’t work out, because she was an active agent who tried, instead of being a passive victim. Future partners would judge her less harshly for wanting and pursuing a relationship too, rather than simply letting herself “get used” for one night of sex.
Given all that, while “no sex before monogamy” is hard right now – nevertheless, there are “smarter” ways of hooking up than others, which are more likely to result in a LTR. Sure, sex must often be risked before commitment. But, that risk can be mitigated and drawn out over time, depending on HOW a woman chooses to hookup within the broad spectrum of that behavior.
Having said that, I also see your own success story as a bit more than just taking a “leap of faith” with uncommitted sex. First, your now husband began as a friend, who you carefully screened for awhile, along specific criteria. Although you focused on attractive alpha characteristics, you also had some beta characteristics in your criteria – improving LTR success. This friendship, time lag, and screening made the eventual sex less impulsive. It also made it more likely to turn into a LTR than some random, un-calculated ONS with a stranger pulled from a bar.
Second, you pursued him after the sex. Kudos for that btw. It takes a lot of guts, particularly because it is contrary to the standard female role. Even after rejection, you still stayed connected. You even “gamed” him a bit, with some Scarcity/Rules stuff there by ignoring him for a time (even if it was unintentional). Eventually, that pumped your value enough to get him to chase you. So, you limited the risk of getting pumped and dumped there by hanging on, asserting your desires, and even gaming to get it.
Thus, you didn’t just “spread and pray”…you did “hook up smart”. The only piece I might add in retrospect, is that I would have advised stopping that first night at something less than sex. I would have told you to give him a hand job or oral, then see what he does… If he doesn’t try to reciprocate in some manner, prompt him by getting naked but saying you don’t want full sex. If he doesn’t use fingers or tongue, cut him loose – he’s not that into you. If he does reciprocate, then see if he calls. Try to make plans for next time, etc.
Doing it that way and stopping at manual/oral for the first hookup would be less of an investment. Emotionally, you might not have needed a weekend away to recover when he declined your next offer. Also, if it had not blossomed past a ONS, the next guy would be less likely to count it.
I hope all this makes sense. I’m also getting a small snippet of this from the limited reading and conversation. So, you may have covered all of this and more in your extensive archive. But, from the conversation right now, it feels like too much of a black or white statement. There are nuances here that can help women achieve a LTR goal. Even if they “have to” eventually hookup and have intercourse before commitment, how they navigate the choices within and up to that make a difference to LTR success. It will later make a difference as to whether their future husbands (who may care) have dissonance/phantoms about their historic behavior too.
I know you are wrestling with the religious component here. I know some guys are “all or nothing”. One PIV and she’ a slut. I don’t think most guys are that way though. They don’t necessarily want perfect, sparking, virgins. However, I do think a larger number of guys get a bit squeamish when they learn their wife has made some pretty impulsive, reckless, and unseemly sexual decisions in her past. So, for women who want LTRs, “hooking up smart” every time works for both her goals – and her future husband’s happiness.
@Zach
This certainly played a role – beta males responding to alpha females. On the flipside, beta females have also had to adapt to alpha males. This takes the form of pretending you’re OK with casual, when the entire time you’re analyzing his every move with your friends to see if he is acting “relationshippy” or “boyfriendy.”
FTR, I do not use alpha and beta here to describe looks. More along the lines of restricted vs. unrestricted sexuality. I disagree with your earlier claim that unrestricted is hot and restricted is not, though there is some evidence that sluts of both sexes are good looking.
@ INTJ:
“Being in a high status class of society naturally makes people dominant. It’s one of the reasons dominance is attractive.”
Correction: prestige.
Just a theory of mine, but I suspect low SES girls respond to dominance, whereas high SES girls respond more to prestige.
@ J
I don’t think it’s a presumption. It’s just that people who want sex are going to prefer better looking people more, whereas people who want the whole package wouldn’t prefer better looking people as much.
The presumption of sluttiness is more dependent on revealing clothing, body language, level of makeup, etc.
This study contains some pretty good information about this: http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/busslab/pdffiles/Cues%20to%20Exploitability.pdf
Susan if you want to try to understand betaization, I think you do have to consider there is a portion of self-loathing ones selflessness.
I believe some betas wouldn’t be betas, if they’d achieved better traction with their alpha ways. It makes being beta more like the default for not being alpha.
Then there is the awkward part when we try to justify its advantages, and why women should find it attractive. But quite honestly it feels like trying to support the fat acceptance movement – sincerey – sole based because
you to we’re born that way.
Much easier! GBFM is completely coherent once you read the GBFM glossary.
I can somewhat see why they approach the issue with the “red pill” hyperbole of “evil women” to help wake men up. However, in the long run those men are not getting healthy, or having their awareness raised…they are just supplementing one bad set of memes for another.
It’s good to hear you say this. There are a number of men who comment on these blogs who have been stuck in the same place literally for years. They say that the “over the top” rhetoric serves as a wake-up call to many men who have allowed themselves to be supplicants but then settle down later into more equal relationships. This is certainly true for some. Others though seem to say bitter and immobilized. It’s sort of sad to see people hang on to pain that way.
Sometimes I’m invited to appear on a public radio show that is broadcast from Carnegie Mellon. It’s called Talk Back, and there’s always a panel of students. I go on to talk about sex and relationships, obvs. The guys make a ton of jokes about the # of male virgins at the school, very much along the lines of what the CalTech brochure said. It never struck me as dysfunctional – they seem to regard it as an unfortunate by-product of being STEM, but they seem optimistic about post-graduation.
I mean, if you’re into aerospace engineering, and you apply to schools to study that, you know going in you’re not going to have a lot of female interaction. Those guys have made choices based on who they are.
Dr J – I greatly appreciate your reply. It really is good to know I’m not alone in how I felt and continue to feel. All of this candid disclosure is VERY uncomfortable for me, and isn’t usually my “style” when it comes to communicating with others, let alone virtual strangers on the internet. But as you pointed out, there are plenty of other guys out there in the exact same place, and they should know they aren’t alone.
The other reason I’ve decided to open myself up to a world of hurt by being more candid, is that I truly believe young women should know about all this. They may never in their entire lives meet a guy that feels the way I do about casual sex, but IF they do and fall in love, I would truly hate for it to end badly because they simply didn’t know. If they know and decide that casual sex is for them? More power to them. All I’m interested in is making sure they have all the information available to make those choices. I have NO intention of telling individual women how to live their lives. But, I certainly DO intend to tell both men AND women that their choices today can and will impact the rest of their lives. Some for good, some not so good. And what really stinks is some of those decisions can be good OR bad depending on circumstances down the road. Life is a gamble, but if you are going to risk it all, you REALLY should make the best risk assessment you can. And again, you can’t do that without all the info.
I’m not sure what part of the U.S. you live in, but I will certainly add you to the list of folks I’ve “met” here that I would have a beer with. If Susan or anyone else ever tries to arrange a meet and greet, I’d do my best to make it. It’s a very strange thing. I am generally people averse, rather distrustful, and super cautious when it comes to “getting to know” people. But HUS in particular has made me feel comfortable to an extent I’ve never found elsewhere on the ‘net. I know Susan struggles with the tone here, and I’ve probably contributed to that issue from time to time. But at least in my case it isn’t out of some malicious intent. I’m a pain in the ass here because I care, not because I don’t. It is a sad thing that I am usually the biggest PITA (pain in the ass) to the people I love the most.
@ SayWhaat
Please pardon the gender mix-up. It is hard without any information. Nevertheless, I should not assume.
Beyond that, I’m not sure you and Susan Walsh are making the same point. She says:
You said:
My understanding of Susan, which I agree, is that this is a big issue because men are internalizing this low-value self-image. As a result, men need to be taught to not buy into these roles or perpetuate these jokes. Stopping this starts with educating them that it isn’t funny.
Unless I am wrong, your comment sounds like you are implying it is “no big deal”, particularly because the guys found it funny and they knew the situation. If that is so, then I think you have missed my (and Susan’s) point. Simply put, it is a bad thing that men find this funny and talk about themselves that way. They are putting themselves down and lowering their own value. By ignoring it, discounting it, encouraging it, or reinforcing it, women are taking part as well.
It is one thing to “know the odds” and realize it will be hard to find a girlfriend…and another to “think you’re odd” and not worthy of the girls who are there. That is an important distinction that should not be overlooked. It is particularly important to NOT ignore it BECAUSE the men (and women) find it funny and DON’T know what is wrong with it.
If, however, I have mis-read your comment, please ignore my above soap
@ Madelena, PJ, Mike C
I don’t intend to hard-sell this. I’d strongly prefer to marry someone with N<5, all LTRs (or at least attempts at LTRs – I won't hold it against someone that she got P&Dd). Virgin would be ideal, but a low-N is certainly fine. However, having never been in the situation before, I can't really say whether I'd be willing to overlook a lapse of judgement causing a fling or two. I very well might. It would certainly cause me a lot of distress though. It means that either the girl had poor self-control, or she had a more vulgar attitude towards sex than I do.
@Dr. Jeremy
I’m going to turn that comment into a post. I’m overdue for a post, and it’s been a super busy week, and that comment is pure AWESOMENESS! I’ll happily link to both your blogs.
@Susan 1459
The implication wasn’t really concerning unrestricted vs. restricted sexuality and hotness. It was between confident, outgoing women and hotness. My contention was that women who are confident and social tend to be more attractive, regardless of their sexuality restrictions. I do find there is a pretty strong correlation between attractiveness in females and talkativeness, sociability and ease in group situations. I think it’s pretty rare to find the shy, wallflower type girl who is an 8+. That was my contention, but to steal Anacona’s term, YMMV.
my wife went to Cal Tech. I found the jokes funny.
I cosign this. Last night over dinner, my husband and I were talking about whether attraction triggers are malleable. (I know, poor guy, right? HUS with his pasta.) I think they are, and I gave a bunch of arguments to support my position. (I know, it’s terrible to turn dinnertime into a comment thread.) I then asked “What do you think?” and he said, “I know firsthand that attraction triggers are malleable. I went to an engineering school.”
So he had the opposite feeling – he could have done better at a liberal arts college. But this was the 70s, and feminism has gone much deeper into the male psyche.
@ J and INTJ
I agree with both of you re female attractiveness and the assumption of promiscuity, because the reverse is also true (men assuming plain looking or average girls are not promiscuous). They are “shocked!” that average women have a high N. They’ve projected chaste qualities based on her overall attractiveness level, as though “plain” or less shapely = good morals.
To put it shortly, a girl who is more attractive is going to be seen as more promiscuous wearing the same thing a plain looking girl would wear, circa Alicia Keys in Clueless (miniskirt, thigh highs) looks very different on a 10 with boobs.
In terms of your comment INTJ
“I don’t think it’s a presumption. It’s just that people who want s*x are going to prefer better looking people more, whereas people who want the whole package wouldn’t prefer better looking people as much.”
Yep. Being hot and having a nice body is definitely a priority for young women in selecting men in someplace like NYC where there’s more hooking up.
O God, vergeef ons die lighartiges, wat op dansvloere, en melodieë van hoere, ons evangelies gaan soek …
@Zach
OK, thanks for clarifying that. I agree – extraversion is correlated to promiscuity, but it is also correlated to perceived attractiveness by males. Personality counts after the first impression, and extroverted women have an easier time displaying it.
@Marellus
Ah, I’d forgotten you were in Capetown, is that right? So funny that you’re drunk while we’re having morning coffee.
Merellus – “O God, vergeef ons die lighartiges, wat op dansvloere, en melodieë van hoere, ons evangelies gaan soek …”
ROFL. I don’t know where you are in the world, but I guess wherever it is the weekend has begun! I’ll be following you in a few hours. The wife and I are spending a weekend alone at our friends “cabin” near the ski resorts of Pittsburgh because it is up for sale and will be gone next month. I’m not sure I’ll get nearly as “altered” as you appear to be, but I’ll be with you in spirit either way.
@ Ion
Only if he’s taller than her…
@ Susan Walsh,
Regarding comment 1469
Sounds good. You have always given credit citing me in the past anyway and sampled my other writing respectfully. So, citing me and linking to my pages will be great. Happy to be a quasi-guest poster
Time to get back to my own writing lol! But, I will be happy to see the article (and join the commenting) when you post it. Hopefully, it will be the first of many insights and collaborations from this ongoing discussion too.
and this
along with…
Is exactly how I feel about it.
@INTJ #1461
That’s interesting. I consciously dressed down during my teens and twenties and was still stuck wondering what it was about me that sent out DTF signals. I didn’t have a mental image of myself as any great beauty (I was an ugly duckling as a kid, and it took me years to get over it), but I certainly was above the threshold in looks that would attract men who wanted sex anyway. And that’s just about every guy, isn’t it? ;-0
Dr. Jeremy,
Good post overall, but this here is standard LMR and can be easily overcome. As we all know, women love sex too, and while it would be a good idea in theory, most would be too hot and bothered at this point to follow through, and would be actively fighting the urge to ‘give in’. Some amazing fortitude would have to be shown.
Desi, honestly, what percentage of 14 year old boys would *not* have some worry?
@ Dr. Jeremy, Susan
Wait Dr. Jeremy has a second blog? Link please!
@Susan, I’ve been reading the story about the young 9, and I’m not sure whether you covered this. If she is afraid of men not wanting to know her because they only want her body, it seems to me her beta orbiters whom she has known for years fit the bill. She must know they want her, but it is clear that having known her for so long, they are far more likely to “get her.” She only needs to pick the best of the lot, ie., looks, whatever it is that meets her requirements. Whomever she picks would probably start lighting candles in thanks to the deity(ies) for lucking out big time.
To put it shortly, a girl who is more attractive is going to be seen as more promiscuous wearing the same thing a plain looking girl would wear, circa Alicia Keys in Clueless (miniskirt, thigh highs) looks very different on a 10 with boobs.
Exactly. I still have to dress very carefully to avoid giving the wrong impression and avoid a lot of styles that many other women wear with no presumptions being made.
Wanna hear something weird? Men will sometimes think I’m wearing clothes that are more revealing than what I’m actually wearing or think they see things I know they can’t see. I never show cleavage, but I like shallow V-necks because they make me look taller and oddly enough less chesty. A male acquaintance once coomented on how a v-neck blouse of mine revealed cleavage. I denied that it did. He insisted it did, so I asked, “OK, where’s my beauty spot?” He couldn’t answer because it was covered.
@ J
Back in those days, did women in your SMP actually wear slutty clothing? I would have thought that even most promiscuous girls would have dressed rather classy.
@ Ion, J
I think there’s an assumption (not unjustified) that even restricted women with average looks are going to try to improve their attractiveness by wearing somewhat revealing clothing. In contrast, the assumption is that attractive women don’t need to play up their looks, so they only reason they would do so is if they’re promiscuous.
Back in those days, did women in your SMP actually wear slutty clothing? I would have thought that even most promiscuous girls would have dressed rather classy.
Back in the Pleistocene? We would always wear our most modest and chic deer hides to the mammoth hunt, but alphas were really alphas back in the day. The sluttiest girls went for the mightiest hunters, but I always appreciated a good flintknapper
My heydey would have been the 70s. I dressed a lot like Laura Prepon in “That 70s Show,” but it was possible to look quite slutty if you tried.
PVW – “I’ve been reading the story about the young 9, and I’m not sure whether you covered this. If she is afraid of men not wanting to know her because they only want her body, it seems to me her beta orbiters whom she has known for years fit the bill. She must know they want her, but it is clear that having known her for so long, they are far more likely to “get her.” She only needs to pick the best of the lot, ie., looks, whatever it is that meets her requirements. Whomever she picks would probably start lighting candles in thanks to the deity(ies) for lucking out big time.”
This is the classic issue: IF she decided to “take on” one of her orbiters, no matter how well they treated her, she would most likely ALWAYS wonder if she could have done better. I don’t disagree with your assessment, but for it to work this young woman would seriously have to adjust her default attitude.
J – “He insisted it did, so I asked, “OK, where’s my beauty spot?” He couldn’t answer because it was covered.”
What is a beauty spot? Do you have a birth mark, or is this some slang term for something?
INTJ “Only if he’s taller than her…
”
It’s definitely likely she’d hold out for a taller guy. But, some tall girls (and we always strike up convos the rare moments I encounter a female as tall as me), say that they would have liked a tall guy, but the tall guys aren’t checking for her…so.
The problem is that a 5’11 woman is more likely to date a man who is, say 5’8, but she absolutely won’t date someone 5’1. They are incompatible for many reasons (so are women that short and men that tall but the “daddy, daddy, pick me up!” allows that incompatibility to become a turn on). lol :-p Some of my friends are around that height and I have to bend down in public just to hear them.
There are just as many tall women who will date a shorter guy just not a short guy. But a few inches shorter is usually not a problem.
What is a beauty spot? Do you have a birth mark, or is this some slang term for something?
A cute term for a birth mark or mole.
http://www.google.com/search?aq=&rlz=1T4TSNJ_enUS445US445&q=beauty+spot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=dHuBUKKIJeS00QGBx4CIAg&biw=805&bih=328&sei=f3uBUKn0GvKw0QGJj4GQAw
@Ted D
Proverbs 31 verses 6 & 7.
“Might be good to wear a little makeup, turtlenecks or plain shirts, and long skirts. You do not have to break the bank either”
Ion’s advice is good except for the turtleneck part. Sai, stay away from turtlenecks!! It was a long time before I realized they weren’t doing me any favors. Pity, because they are comfy.
@J
As one of the only girls in 8th grade who was already a C cup, I got propositioned by one friend’s father and two dads of families I babysat for. Lord, how I dreaded those rides home. “Jim, would you run Sue home please?” “Heh, heh, heh, gladly” (rubs paws together)
I was 14 at the time, and it never seemed to occur to any of these men not only that this was inappropriate, but also that I might not be interested.
As one of the only girls in 8th grade who was already a C cup,
Wow.
I got propositioned by one friend’s father and two dads of families I babysat for.
Double wow.
I was 14 at the time, and it never seemed to occur to any of these men not only that this was inappropriate, but also that I might not be interested.
That’s damn near criminal. You were a kid and probably not much older than their own kids.
@pvw
You have a really good point there.
I’m not sure if the young9 would ever talk to her oribitors about it, but I’ve had to on a few occasions very clearly explain exactly-why saying things like “ugh, I want a boyfriend!!! *sign*” in front of single guys. To my dismay, the girls I say this to often can’t fathom why saying things amoung “friends” would ever be inappropriate.
I usually tell them that your sending the message to every guy in earshot that he’s essentially chopped-liver. I think for some girls, perhaps higher SMV ones with oribitors, they can imagine a friend more than a friends, and they can’t imagine how a guy’s scarcity mindset might cause him to get upset over their complaint that they’re unhappy with their selection to choose from.
@pvw
I don’t disagree with that strategy. In the end I predict she will marry someone she knew as a friend first, and also that she will go with someone less good looking than herself. I have a soft spot for some of these guys, and one in particular would be perfect, I think. (And she would have cute gingers with him
). Alas, I don’t get to make that call.
@Dr. Jeremy #1458
Yeah, that’s some solid advice. Those 3 points are important.
@Susan
With regards to Dr. J above, and this:
Here’s my two cents. First of all, I wouldn’t characterize a girl willingly having sex with you after the two of you date a bit as some desperation swing to get on base towards landing a relationship, where she’s (metaphorically) closing her eyes and gritting her teeth, praying in earnest she doesn’t get axed. A lot of times, if she really wants you, she also really wants you physically, and not necessarily with the caveat that some type of commitment must have changed hands (surprising how often this is the case, contrary to conventional wisdom, but really not surprising when you consider women’s lib). Women want desirable men, point blank, and they realize that it doesn’t always work out (and many won’t assume that it will work out) for a variety of reasons- a lot of women have plenty of filters and quirks where even after the sex has gone down, she may still not want a relationship. In my experience, women come from several different angles on this: some want mr. right now, some are leaving town, some are just plain unavailable emotionally, sometimes the guy just isn’t what she really wanted in the end, the list goes on. Not trying to be flip, but I must say that your statement above seems a bit too heavy on the victim sentiment- I know plenty of girls who have rarely if ever been dumped, but enjoyed whatever sex they had for what it was, and they have done the dumping.
On the subject of extremely attractive women getting the type of attention they want, here’s something else I have noticed. The attractive (7.5+ to be consistent with this blog’s lexicon) women that I know have all gone a bit above and beyond to get their relationships. If they want a guy, they will make it clear to him by being in his space and giving plenty of opportunities. The most successful ones also show interest by asking him about himself because they legitimately do want to know about him, and they have enough confidence to be a bit more bold about it than most girls (probably because they’re attractive and used to getting what they want). Sounds like role reversal, doesn’t it? Personally, I think the worst thing a girl can do if she’s down on her luck is sit around and wait for someone to approach, and then when someone does, expect him to manufacture a relationship for her, which is exactly what a lot of girls do. Men are not “love dispensers”, haha. If you want a good relationship, you have to actively take part in creating a connection. If you aren’t doing that, how can you expect to get what you want? It’s like standing on one shore and seeing someone you might want across the river, and while they get out the tools and build a bridge halfway to you, you stand with your arms folded.
I’m all for guys doing the approaching, but my experience makes me wonder if a big part of the problem you have described is women thinking so hard about what a man has to offer, versus taking an active interest in learning about him. My current girl did exactly the latter. Provided a girl’s got the looks to attract the eye of the guy in question, I could see (and have seen in real life) this being really useful in snagging a really high ranking guy because it makes him feel like a girl “gets” him beyond his superficial charms. People like to be appreciated for all of their aspects- and BOTH men and women objectify each other so much these days that it makes a connection difficult. In fact women objectify more (yes)- now I can only speak for myself, but in order to commit, I need to see that there’s a person worth being with behind all the high standards and boxes to be checked. If you never show yourself to be interested in me beyond my ability to take charge and make our connection possible, that’s not a commitment I’m willing to make.
My $0.02. Happy Friday
@J
The Man with the X Ray Eyes! Haha, probably just some wishful thinking. He’s confusing fantasy with reality.
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