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One Shrink’s Guidelines to Hooking Up Smart

Reader Dr. Jeremy left a comment earlier today that was interesting and contains some excellent advice. Jeremy Nicholson is a writer and psychologist specializing in social and personality psychology. I’ve linked to him before, while discussing male mating strategies and being miserable in the friend zone, and he comes by HUS from time to time and joins our discussions. His insight, both professional and personal, has been extremely valuable and popular with other readers.

Earlier today we were talking about why women would go for a hookup (casual) when what they really want is a boyfriend (commitment). I observed that many women see the casual hookup as the prerequisite for a shot at the relationship:

You want a boyfriend? Well, to get that you have to travel through Lust, the second circle of Hell. Nearly every relationship I know of among young people today began with uncommitted sex. The women took a leap of faith and prayed they wouldn’t be pumped and dumped.

No Sex Before Monogamy is ideal, but I’m not kidding myself. It’s very rare.

Dr. Jeremy responded:

I think there are a lot of behavior nuances here that we are missing, which give women control in the outcome of the hookup and also show differences in their character. Specifically, I see three such areas, where women can behave to limit their hook-up risk and maximize the possibility of a long-term relationship, i.e., LTR, (and also be less severely evaluated by men who care). These assume the women care about their sexual reputation and are goal-oriented looking for a LTR too – rather than being STR-oriented, sex-positive, and just having fun with wherever they land.

1) Screening – Getting to know a man over time as a friend first is much less risky and requires less faith than falling into bed with a stranger. Also, having selective and defined criteria for sex partners can maximize the chance a ONS turns into a LTR, much better than simply sleeping with whoever asks and hoping for the best. Both help the woman “pick” a guy who is more likely to eventually turn into a LTR, even if their physical relationship starts with no-promises sex. Having sex after being friends first and/or having set criteria for sex partners is also more palatable to future men, as it shows greater character, discretion, and self-control.

2) Escalating – Lust and hook-ups can take many forms. The first physical encounter does not necessarily have to go all the way to intercourse. Women have options of stopping the activity at making out, mutual masturbation, oral sex, etc. Rather than going “all in” with intercourse, they can step it up over time. This tests the man in an incremental way and risks less on her part all at once. If he doesn’t call after a blow job, having intercourse would not have turned him into a boyfriend. But, having another full “notch” on her belt may be more traumatic for her, and might be judged less favorably by others. So, better to only have “faith” and “risk” a kiss or bj, than go all in – especially when the results are no different (or possibly even worse for full sex at time #1).

3) Follow-Up – Does the woman choose to pursue and even “game” the guy after hooking up, or just passively see what he does? A woman who actively pursues a relationship after a hookup is more likely to get one. She also feels better about herself if it doesn’t work out, because she was an active agent who tried, instead of being a passive victim. Future partners would judge her less harshly for wanting and pursuing a relationship too, rather than simply letting herself “get used” for one night of sex.

Given all that, while “no sex before monogamy” is hard right now – nevertheless, there are “smarter” ways of hooking up than others, which are more likely to result in a LTR. Sure, sex must often be risked before commitment. But, that risk can be mitigated and drawn out over time, depending on HOW a woman chooses to hook up within the broad spectrum of that behavior.

Having said that, I also see your own success story as a bit more than just taking a “leap of faith” with uncommitted sex. First, your now husband began as a friend, who you carefully screened for awhile, along specific criteria. Although you focused on attractive alpha characteristics, you also had some beta characteristics in your criteria – improving LTR success. This friendship, time lag, and screening made the eventual sex less impulsive. It also made it more likely to turn into a LTR than some random, un-calculated ONS with a stranger pulled from a bar.

Second, you pursued him after the sex. Kudos for that btw. It takes a lot of guts, particularly because it is contrary to the standard female role. Even after rejection, you still stayed connected. You even “gamed” him a bit, with some Scarcity/Rules stuff there by ignoring him for a time (even if it was unintentional). Eventually, that pumped your value enough to get him to chase you. So, you limited the risk of getting pumped and dumped there by hanging on, asserting your desires, and even gaming to get it.

Thus, you didn’t just “spread and pray”…you did “hook up smart”. The only piece I might add in retrospect, is that I would have advised stopping that first night at something less than sex. I would have told you to give him a hand job or oral, then see what he does… If he doesn’t try to reciprocate in some manner, prompt him by getting naked but saying you don’t want full sex. If he doesn’t use fingers or tongue, cut him loose – he’s not that into you. If he does reciprocate, then see if he calls. Try to make plans for next time, etc.

Doing it that way and stopping at manual/oral for the first hookup would be less of an investment. Emotionally, you might not have needed a weekend away to recover when he declined your next offer. Also, if it had not blossomed past a ONS, the next guy would be less likely to count it.

I hope all this makes sense. There are nuances here that can help women achieve a LTR goal. Even if they “have to” eventually hookup and have intercourse before commitment, how they navigate the choices within and up to that make a difference to LTR success. It will later make a difference as to whether their future husbands (who may care) have dissonance/phantoms about their historic behavior too.

I know you are wrestling with the religious component here. I know some guys are “all or nothing”. One PIV and she’ a slut. I don’t think most guys are that way though. They don’t necessarily want perfect, sparkling, virgins. However, I do think a larger number of guys get a bit squeamish when they learn their wife has made some pretty impulsive, reckless, and unseemly sexual decisions in her past. So, for women who want LTRs, “hooking up smart” every time works for both her goals – and her future husband’s happiness. 

Good stuff, right? What do you think?

Note: Both comments were edited. Jeremy’s full comment may be found here.

Check out Jeremy’s  blogs  at Psychology Today and The Attraction Doctor!

  • SayWhaat

    I am curious to know what Dr. Jeremy thinks of cunnilingus strategy.

    :P

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Most guys are intimidated by cunnilingus, especially the beta ones, IME.

    So you’re going to filter out all the decent guys. Along with the players, I guess.

    One wonders what you are going to filter in.

    Probably guys into some real kinky shit and have a great deal of bedroom confidence.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Most guys are intimidated by cunnilingus, especially the beta ones, IME.

      Should I write a guide? :)

      This is the sine qua non of female satisfaction, IMO. Filtering out guys who don’t like it is essential if you’re not in the 20% who gets off via penile action alone.

  • SayWhaat

    ADBG, the guys don’t *have* to do it. I’m just saying, if BJs are on the table…

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ SayWhaat,

    Me personally? I didn’t take electives in, and then volunteered to teach, psychology of human sexuality for nothing! :-P

    Beyond that… It depends on the woman for starters. Not all women like that type of contact for a variety of reasons. For those that do, I say fair is fair. If a guy wants oral, he should be prepared to return the favor. Exceptions to that rule are lack of hygiene and period time. The period is officially blow job week anyway…to be reciprocated with back/foot rubs instead.

    ADBG makes a solid point though, not all guys know what they are doing. So, it might benefit the women who want it to be prepared with a little advice, guidance, and patience. Know how your own button works, well enough to teach a novice operator. Give him lots of praise, put him in a comfy position so he doesn’t get lock-jaw, then let him practice. Oh, and let him know that it is fun and exploring…not a pass/fail exam.

    Might as well teach them these finger tricks too :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Dr. Jeremy

      Another good shark week strategy: sex in the shower.

  • Cooper

    “If he doesn’t [reciprocate]– he’s not that into you.”

    I approve.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    By all means write a guide. Make sure to let the women know not to fake it and offer honest feedback, too. ;)

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Can’t you just throw a pink towel underneath and then take a shower afterwards….never had a problem myself….just saying

  • Esau

    Most guys are intimidated by cunnilingus, especially the beta ones, IME.

    Funny, my anecdotal experience is just the opposite: to me, “beta” means being giving and trying to please others, and so by this definition the beta type is much more likely to do something generous and centered on the woman’s enjoyment. It’s the self-centered alpha who can’t be bothered to pay attention to anything beyond his own satisfaction.

    Trouble is — as has been much discussed here already — the generous beta type, who would really enjoy giving pleasure, is too easily DQ’ed as a supplicator and so doesn’t get the chance to deliver. I think women could get a lot more care and positive attention, if they didn’t so often mistake kindness for weakness in men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Esau

      I think women could get a lot more care and positive attention, if they didn’t so often mistake kindness for weakness in men.

      Amen to that. There’s a post there – kindness is not weakness.

  • SayWhaat

    Are a lot of women opposed to surfing the crimson tide? I generally feel less cramping and more soothed afterwards…

  • Lokland

    @Saywhaat

    “I am curious to know what Dr. Jeremy thinks of cunnilingus strategy.”

    Correct and likely best answer to shit test:

    Cheeky grin, Well I am all about equality.
    Pull her in for kiss.

  • Lokland

    I like shower sex during periods.
    Its also blow job week though.

    why settle for only one?

  • modernguy

    Lol at “full notch count”.

    Blowing the football team is not less slutty than getting banged by the football team. Maybe this guy feels good that he can tell his buddies his wife had 20 sexual partner before him, but she only blew them while he gives her a peck on the lips. Most guys probably wouldn’t though.

  • modernguy

    Going down on a girl is definitely beta, especially if you’re doing it for her.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Going down on a girl is definitely beta, especially if you’re doing it for her.

      Just one more reason to date a beta.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    SW: “I am curious to know what Dr. Jeremy thinks of cunnilingus strategy.”

    It’s a great way to filter out inexperienced men, and increase your player hit rate. One of my hallmates back in college would demand oral from men, and then refuse anything else. She had a strange a rep as being a total prude that would only allow oral.

  • Lokland

    @modernguy

    “Going down on a girl is definitely beta, especially if you’re doing it for her.”

    Anything can be made to be a dominant act with the right frame.

    “Cheeky grin, Well I am all about equality.
    Pull her in for kiss.”

    Grab hips;
    lift off ground;
    reverse her vertical orientation while laying down;

    69 is neutral in terms of alpha-beta but in creating the situation you have given the women the pleasure she asked for and added to your own and not only taken a supplicatory gesture but have made it dominant/leading based act.

    Net gain.

    Beyond that, 69 is fucking hot.

    Relatively simple actually, its not rocket science.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sue: “This is the sine qua non of female satisfaction, IMO.”

    Hahaha!! The Mrs. would disagree here. It’s certianly one of the first steps, but certainly not the last.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Hahaha!! The Mrs. would disagree here. It’s certianly one of the first steps, but certainly not the last.

      I think the Mrs. should teach classes, she has tapped into something most of us can only dream of.

  • Esau

    OTC: Hahaha!! The Mrs. would disagree here. It’s certianly one of the first steps, but certainly not the last.

    SW: I think the Mrs. should teach classes, she has tapped into something most of us can only dream of.

    Is this only the stuff that dreams are made on, for most folks? Not to brag, but that’s pretty typical in our household. Advantages of marrying a beta, indeed!

    Though I agree with Lokland that giving can be mounted in an alpha frame (so to speak), the decision to value someone else’s pleasure is basically a beta tendency; so what Lok describes is Susan’s preferred Beta/Alpha mix, and it does work wonders.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Is this only the stuff that dreams are made on, for most folks? Not to brag, but that’s pretty typical in our household. Advantages of marrying a beta, indeed!

      Based on reports from the field as well as research, casual sex is rarely pleasurable for the woman. And players don’t work for the female O. Even if they give it the college try, it’s hard for most women to orgasm with a stranger. It’s only sensible to select a sexual partner who cares about you and wants to please you. I’ve read a lot of discussions online where men discuss giving oral, and what always jumps out is how many men say that her getting turned on gets them really turned on. That’s the link we should all be searching for, and it goes both ways.

      Re the moves in the Cuff household, OTC has shared that his wife can literally orgasm for hours on end. Personally, I’d rather carve out an hour for sex and then read a good book. :P

  • Lokland

    @OTC

    “Hahaha!! The Mrs. would disagree here. It’s certianly one of the first steps, but certainly not the last.”

    Is this in regards to vaginal orgasm?

    We’ve worked it to the point we can do achieve it consistently now but only in one position. (Me standing, holding her. Her legs on back of calfs basically riding me.)

    Any advice on how to expand the number of potential positions?
    As much as I love squatting an extra 100 pds for 5-10 mins it does almost nothing for me.

  • Plain Jane

    “Escalating – Lust and hook-ups can take many forms. The first physical encounter does not necessarily have to go all the way to intercourse. Women have options of stopping the activity at making out, mutual masturbation, oral sex, etc. Rather than going “all in” with intercourse, they can step it up over time. This tests the man in an incremental way and risks less on her part all at once. ”

    Yes. I don’t get the rush to jump into the sack on the first or even 5th date. The slow, smoldering build-up of passion over time is what makes the full on lovemaking explosive once you get to it. Americans seemed to have missed out on the slow, luxurious seduction gene, although I hear this was the default program back in the 50s and 60s.

    What happened?

    I commented in response to Madelena’s observation that restricting one’s sexuality doesn’t matter because men, even restricted men, even men who claim on this blog NOT to want a woman with x amount of past partners, are openly declaring their love right here for current significant others who have pasts that they previously hooted and hollered over.

    She asked, “whats the point”? Someone offered that there is no point unless a woman is “by nature” restricted, why not continue being restricted?

    My point was, nobody “by nature” is restricted because biologically we have not evolved to be restricted. The restrictions come from outside – from society, culture, religion, reputation, worry over what others think who have themselves been restricted by the same society, culture, religion, etc. The only “naturally restricted” people would be asexuals, and they are few and far between.

    However that being said, and tying it all together, while I do not drink the Kool Aid of externally imposed restrictions, I have restricted and planed a slow build up of sexual activity because I enjoy the chase, the enticement, the seduction, the long smoldering fire. Its truly a high art form and much more mentally and emotionally stimulating than just one done and calling it a day.

    This also ties into what Ted D asked over on the other thread about “why are women choosing to have ONSs when they don’t even orgasm from them? Good question. But we must remember that orgasm is not the be all and end all. There are other aspects of sex that are just as pleasing, even if they don’t result in orgasm, so perhaps those ONS women are feeling that.

  • Plain Jane

    SayWhaat October 19, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Are a lot of women opposed to surfing the crimson tide? I generally feel less cramping and more soothed afterwards…

    I am. I am in no condition to do that during that period (heh), do not feel sexual, and plus its not good for health. That is stuff that needs to flow out of you, not be pushed back up in.

  • Ian

    @Esau

    I think women could get a lot more care and positive attention, if they didn’t so often mistake kindness for weakness in men.

    I think it’s more that unusual kindnesses draw suspicion. Something like playing poker bets wrong; she’ll eventually suspect a low hand, call to test, and you reveal your actual hand, strong or weak.

    The *Cuneiform part, I’ve always been fascinated to think of what the people surrounding me are like in bed. Everybody does it, but, what do they do it like? Clues like these make me worry that it’s a lot of awkwardness and complaining.

    ‘Her turn’, would mean turn to orgasm; one easy way to get there. For men, I’ll go rogue and say that BJ’s are redundant outside of the context of Dr. Jeremy’s advice, a new relationship.

  • Plain Jane

    “Beyond that, 69 is fucking hot.

    Relatively simple actually, its not rocket science.”

    Simple? Are you kidding? Its multi-tasking.

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Lokland,

    It depends on what you are actually hitting that is making her orgasm. Women generally have three orgasm spots.
    1) Clitoris
    2) G-Spot – just inside the vagina, top, facing front.
    3) Deep Spot – way inside the vagina, in front of the cervix.

    If she is getting off during sex from the clit friction – you may want to try Cowgirl (her on top) so she can grind, or something called Coital Alignment Technique, a variant on missionary for you to grind on her.

    If she likes the G-Spot – good old ass up face down Doggie Style works. Just make sure to thrust “down” a bit to rub the front of her vagina. Missionary with you on your knees and a pillow under her butt works too. The goal here is to thrust “up” to hit the front of her vagina.

    Finally, if she likes it deep – lift her legs up. Put them over your shoulders while she lays down. It sometimes helps if you stand next to the bed. Or, missionary with her legs as far up as possible. Bonus points if you can push her ankles to her ears.

    Also, if you don’t need the exercise in her preferred position…they do make sex swings/harnesses to hold her up. Otherwise, hold on tight! You can seriously injure your penis if she slips. So, be careful.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Lokland, hehhe, yes. That is the first step!! Work with what you have, and see if you can expand the repertoire. Best way is to start with your hands, and once you can do that, and then see if you can switch positions to finish. We talked quite a bit about this on Danny’s blog a while back.

  • Esau

    @Esau
    I think women could get a lot more care and positive attention, if they didn’t so often mistake kindness for weakness in men.

    Ian: I think it’s more that unusual kindnesses draw suspicion.

    Of course, but this just beggars the question of what the standard is for “usual” versus “unusual” in two peoples’ minds. Forty years ago, in the MC/UMC, it was generally considered classy for a young man to bring flowers on a first date; now, as Susan informs us, it’s the absolute kiss of death. The standards for what constitutes a “usual” amount of kindness have plunged! to where it now seems like displaying anything other than outright selfishness will risk a DQ as a supplicator — basically Least Interest run amok, as Susan has noted elsewhere.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The standards for what constitutes a “usual” amount of kindness have plunged! to where it now seems like displaying anything other than outright selfishness will risk a DQ as a supplicator —

      Sadly, I think this is exactly right, at least in the beginning. Once the attraction is verified and there’s mutual interest, then I do think women look for signs of male investment. For example, I know one couple where the fourth date was him cooking dinner. When she got to his apartment, he nervously asked if she liked what he was preparing. He told her he’d been debating with himself all day over what he should make. She was so pleased with this display of his interest that it definitely moved the relationship forward.

      But women today generally do not reward respectful gestures that signal an intention to court.

  • Desiderius

    “If he doesn’t [reciprocate]– he’s not that into you.”

    If he doesn’t make sure you do – he’s too into you.

    I see I’ve been beaten to that already.

    Dr. J at comment 25,

    Jesus, you’ve summarized all my tricks in a hundred words. Those were hard-learned lessons!

    Only 20% of women get vaginal orgasms? Really?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      There is misinformation on this thread re vaginal orgasms.

      An orgasm that occurs during penetration by applying stimulation to the clitoris, whether with fingers, pressuring, rubbing, etc. is a clitoral orgasm. There are not different kinds of orgasms – arousal created by stimulating the vagina is actually tapping into the clitoral structure, which is much larger than the bean and shaped like a wishbone.

      cs

      A “vaginal orgasm” is the notion that women can have an orgasm through stimulation during intercourse or other vaginal penetration, entirely without clitoral stimulation. However, the vagina has few nerve endings, and therefore cannot create an orgasm on its own. Instead of thinking of the vagina and clitoris as separate entities, try thinking about them as a network of nerves and muscles.

      In reality, total separation between the vagina and clitoris is mostly artificial, and often based on a misunderstanding of what, where, and how big the clitoris really is. The clitoral organ system actually surrounds the vagina, urethra and anus. Rather than thinking of an orgasm as “vaginal” or “clitoral”, it makes more sense to think of orgasm in terms of the feelings that came along with it. In the end, an orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm!

      Stimulating the clitoris and (for some women) pressure in or around the vagina can cause pelvic fullness and body tension to build up to a peak. During sexual excitement, the clitoris swells and changes position. The blood vessels through the whole pelvic area also swell, causing engorgement and a feeling of fullness and sexual sensitivity. The inner vaginal lips swell and change shape, and the vagina balloons upward, causing the uterus to shift position. Orgasm is the point at which all the tension is suddenly released in a series of involuntary and pleasurable muscular contractions in the vagina, uterus, and/or rectum.

      http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/difference-between-clitoral-and-vaginal-orgasm

      In my view, male focus on trying to get women to have different kinds of orgasms, including “breastgasms,” squirting, etc. is wrongheaded and needlessly creates performance anxiety. How and whether a woman orgasms will mostly reflect her own physiology rather than a man’s ability to get her to gush liquid from her bladder as a sign of arousal.

  • Desiderius

    Speaking of competition, here’s some of Susan’s. So bad it hurts to read it.

  • https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

    @SW

    No Sex Before Monogamy is ideal, but I’m not kidding myself. It’s very rare.

    How rare, really? And how are all these young couples getting together, then? Most will still have tied the knot or settled down by age 30, even these days… sorry to be such a skeptic of grandiose generalizations!

    I know it’s one of your favorite (wo)mantras, but “hooking up” has an extremely low success rate, some fraction of 12% (in college). I’d venture an educated guess that fewer than 5% of LTRs that last start out this way.

  • Mike C

    Should I write a guide? :)

    This is the sine qua non of female satisfaction, IMO.

    I think that would be helpful for many.

    The difficulty here in my opinion is no two women prefer the exact type of clitoral stimulation in terms of direct contact, speed, and pressure. You really have to change your technique for each woman, and you have to experiment to find what works exactly right for that woman. It helps if the woman gives clear feedback so then when you hit the right spot and rhythm you keep it going.

  • Iggles

    Those are great tips Dr J! (Post #25)
    Indeed I believe this is how the 20% of women who can reach orgasm through PIV do so!

    Like Susan, I am part of the 80% who need more stimulation – direct contact if you will. It has to do with physiology – how we are built. There is no difference between a clitoral and vaginal orgasm, but there are many different ways to stimulate the same system of nerve endings. Preferences about which route feels best varies from woman to woman.

    I feel like the prevalence of porn and soft core erotica in tv & films have led to misconceptions of sex. The script seems to be kiss, get naked, penetrate and moment later orgasms follow for both. It leads to unrealistic expectations of what’s “normal”. Foreplay and outercourse in general are viewed as “nice to haves” or not necessary in lovemaking.

    I could talk about this all day, but I’ll stop here. I just wanted to note that needing direct clitoral touch (via fingers or tongue) to get off doesn’t mean you’re just not doing it “right”. After all, it’s pretty common! 80% of women need that since indirect touch (i.e., rubbing during PIV) is not enough stimulation for them to climax.

  • Ion

    Lokland: Beyond that, 69 is fucking hot.

    PJ: Simple? Are you kidding? Its multi-tasking.

    HOT multi-tasking…

  • Esau

    Iggles: “I feel like the prevalence of porn and soft core erotica in tv & films have led to misconceptions of sex.”

    I’m sure you’re right here. This seems like a consequence of the unavoidable fact that, what is fun and rewarding to watch is not the same as what is fun and rewarding to do. Another possible way to think about it: an “episode” of porn can only deliver a small, finite amount of satisfaction for the viewer, and so the “filmmaker” has to deliver that small amount quickly or the consumer will be bored if it’s stretched out over too much time; while someone actually having fun themselves will of course generally be glad to have it go on longer.

    The watching/doing distinction can pop up in many places. I might be entranced by the vista of a pristine arctic lake, but that doesn’t mean I want to jump in and go swimming there! Similarly, super-skinny fashion-model type women may be compelling to look at, but that doesn’t make them desirable to hold and be next to (too many pointy bones sticking out uncomfortably, in my anecdotal experience).

    What’s eye-catching is not identical to what’s body-catching; it can be useful to keep this point in mind, as you go through your day.

  • Iggles

    Esau – Good points!

    I’m sure you’re right here. This seems like a consequence of the unavoidable fact that, what is fun and rewarding to watch is not the same as what is fun and rewarding to do.

    That makes a lot of sense. There is definitely a disconnect. Unfortunately failing to understand this, many boys & men (as well as women) become misinformed about sexual “norms”. :(

  • Iggles

    @ Ion:

    HOT multi-tasking…

    Yep :D :lol:

  • Royale W. Cheese

    @Dr. Jeremy

    I appreciate this very sober discussion of female dating strategies. A measured strategic approach to sex before marriage/LTR is great advice.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    We’re violently agreeing, as I’m very acquainted with the physiology. I think there is confusion here between the glans vs the entire organ.

    The context was the statement “cunnilingus being the end-all-be-all of female orgasm”. Unless you have a tongue of superhuman strength, that only really taps into the glans, and ignores the rest of the structure beneath, let alone Dr. J’s “spots”.

    So, button-pushing isn’t the end-all of female orgasm. It’s one small part of a much bigger picture. (Same for men, by the way. How many people know what to do with the prostate?)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So, button-pushing isn’t the end-all of female orgasm. It’s one small part of a much bigger picture. (Same for men, by the way. How many people know what to do with the prostate?)

      Yes, we are agreeing. It’s a question of terminology. I’ve read some very ill-informed articles by men attempting to instruct other men on how to get women to have clitoral, vaginal, breast and squirting orgasms. Men seem particularly invested in squirting, for some reason. In fact, squirting during orgasm does not indicate higher intensity compared to not squirting during orgasm.

      And they are all clitoral orgasms.

      Cunnilingus is not the only way that women like to have orgasms, but many of the women I know give it 5 Stars. :)
      The combination of soft, hard, wet, and a gentle use of suction is mind blowingly rewarding for many women. And it’s also probably the easiest route to orgasm for many women.

  • Desiderius

    OTC,

    Bingo. Glad to have the clitoral/vaginal business cleared up.

    All is not so grim re: porn. A good man who already knows how to take his time building arousal will naturally be curious to find the best ways to bring that arousal to its fullest expression, and the interwebs offer no shortage of resources like Dr. J’s comment 25 for doing so.

    That’s physical escalation.

    Corresponding resources for emotional escalation on the female side are not so easily found.

  • Desiderius

    “what always jumps out is how many men say that her getting turned on gets them really turned on”

    Men require interest.

  • Desiderius

    “When she got to his apartment, he nervously asked if she liked what he was preparing. He told her he’d been debating with himself all day over what he should make.”

    Careful here.

    Your generation loved the beta, having OD’ed on Greatest Generation alpha. We’re at a different place now – this will only work if some strong alpha (attraction) has already been established. Dead serious – this sort of indecisiveness (what Roissy calls vulnerability game) has killed the chances of millions of good men. I’ve seen it happen (to me) in real time.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desiderius

      The guy making dinner story is approximately 6 weeks old. His strategy was successful, they are dating. You are doing the AWALT thing again – it is absolutely not true that a man can only attract women with a DOM or STM frame. (What you would call alpha, I guess. I’m finding these other terms far more useful.)

      He won her over with LTR Game. No feigning disinterest. These people are in the 80%, finding a way to a relationship despite the fact that they’re breaking contemporary SMP rules. I believe most relationships occur this way.

  • Desiderius

    Fair enough – I’m seeing this too. To put in a more positive frame – the man should make sure she’s already demonstrated that level of concern for pleasing him. Then it is safe to reciprocate.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Desi

      the man should make sure she’s already demonstrated that level of concern for pleasing him. Then it is safe to reciprocate.

      Agreed. That was the case here. In fact, I referred to this young woman in an earlier post about emotional escalation. She had taken note of his favorite beer and served it to him at her apartment before their second date. I think they both knew there was reciprocal interest.

  • Desiderius

    It’s not about feigning anything – its about making sure she can take the lead in emotional escalation.

  • Desiderius

    “You are doing the AWALT thing again”

    I am not. You are a woman. People who in fact worry all day about how to please their partners are not in a healthy place in any event, and many (other) women will be turned off by that and for good reason.

    It’s about balance and a healthy sense of perspective.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      People who in fact worry all day about how to please their partners are not in a healthy place in any event

      This is an exaggeration. He was not paralyzed by anxiety all day. He went back and forth between grilled chicken and grilled steak. It was sweet and cute. She loved it.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Re: the female pleasing discussion

    I hardly ever O during sex with a partner. It might be hard to believe, but I enjoy it immensely, tremendously, without O. I’ve had to fake it a few times to keep him confident and interested. I don’t worship the O, and I know that guys don’t always O either, and this is fine with me.

    TMI time. I do not O with a partner because I can only do it while stomach-down, where the pressure is applied broadly over the entire area, while I’m contracting my muscles (lots of effort, but worth it). I have not figured out a position with a partner to get this affect. I have not had a relationship with a guy who is smart and patient enough to work with me to figure it out. They have x, y, and z positions calculated in their head that they insist must work, and if they don’t then there must be something wrong with my hoo-hah.

  • Plain Jane

    What Royale Cheese says. Men should not think their partners don’t love them if they don’t orgasm with them. Its not uncommon for people to only orgasm, or to have the most explosive orgasms, with their own self (masturbation) because we know the rhythms, timing and other subtleties that produce that result and its hard or nearly impossible to replicate that with someone else.

    That doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you madly. Its more of a mechanical thing.

  • Dale

    Actually, women who have sex early are the ones who demand sex early (not that I have a problem with that now, but when first dating I needed time to get comfortably in the relationship). Thus men push for sex as soon as possible, since getting dumped with no explanation really hurts (and doesn’t teach you anything.)

  • http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor Dr. Jeremy

    @ Susan Walsh,

    Thank you for your respect above. Please allow me to further explain my brief statement, so that I am more clear and do not cause anyone undue anxiety.

    To clarify, from my reading, the general consensus among professionals seems to be that a female orgasm is an orgasm – no matter how it is reached. That is an important central point that I should have conveyed more fully. However, I personally tend to not state that all orgasms are clitoral because, to the best of my knowledge, that is still under debate. Some academic sources argue that it is indeed all one clitoral structure, being stimulated from different sides and angles, as you share above. Other academic sources argue that the “vaginal spots” (e.g. skene’s gland, urethra, cervix) are actually connected to different nerves than the clitoris, and some women report more or less sensations from each nerve. Although again, anatomy debate aside, the consensus is that all orgasms are equivalent.

    Given that, I tend to prefer discussing three separate locations, because I think it helps people to zero in on different areas that women might find pleasurable. I have found it helpful to give them the “spots to stimulate” and see what feels good for each woman (as I did above). It ends up being very concrete and easy to understand.

    Having said that, I do see the emotional value and benefit of describing women’s sexual response as “all clitoral” too. When things are described as “separate”, it is possible that men and women may start to feel bad, if they believe they need to accomplish “different kinds” of orgasm. In that sense, somehow conveying that all orgasms are equivalent reduces anxiety. It reframes the focus as the woman experiencing pleasure, however is best for her to do so – rather than feeling like a failure or missing out, if she does not orgasm from a particular type of stimulation.

    Therefore, when I talk about “different locations” in the future, I will be more clear that they all are individual to the woman and equivalent. Whether the anatomy is ultimately found to be connected or separate, the orgasmic goal is reached from each stimulation type.

  • Mike C

    To clarify, from my reading, the general consensus among professionals seems to be that a female orgasm is an orgasm – no matter how it is reached. That is an important central point that I should have conveyed more fully. However, I personally tend to not state that all orgasms are clitoral because, to the best of my knowledge, that is still under debate. Some academic sources argue that it is indeed all one clitoral structure, being stimulated from different sides and angles, as you share above. Other academic sources argue that the “vaginal spots” (e.g. skene’s gland, urethra, cervix) are actually connected to different nerves than the clitoris, and some women report more or less sensations from each nerve. Although again, anatomy debate aside, the consensus is that all orgasms are equivalent.

    I can’t find the links now and don’t have the time to go hunting, but I’ve read testimonials from some women themselves that differentiate the types of orgasms, clitoral versus vaginal. This is light years outside my bailiwick but I’m not sure why I would discount one woman’s experience and totally accept another’s when they self-describe their own orgasmic experiences. Perhaps like attraction triggers, women vary in their orgasmic sexual response

  • Iggles

    @ Mike C:

    I’ve read testimonials from some women themselves that differentiate the types of orgasms, clitoral versus vaginal. This is light years outside my bailiwick but I’m not sure why I would discount one woman’s experience and totally accept another’s when they self-describe their own orgasmic experiences.

    I understand that Susan and Dr J disagree on whether all orgasms original from the cluster of nerves within the clitoral system or not. Personally, I agree with Susan. Studies I’ve read conclude that the system of nerves has “legs” that extend deeply internally.

    However, I don’t think that anyone is arguing that the 3 “types” of orgasms feel different. I don’t have male anatomy ( :lol: ) but from all accounts men seem to agree that the experience of jacking off is different than having intercourse.

    Yet, as far as I know everyone seems to be in agreement that in both situations stimulation of the penis is what causes the orgasm…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yet, as far as I know everyone seems to be in agreement that in both situations stimulation of the penis is what causes the orgasm…

      Yes, the analogy would be telling men they have testicular orgasms, rectal orgasms, prostate orgasms, etc. I assume that the orgasm feels the same in the penis (or wherever!) regardless of where the stimulus originates.

      It is the same with women. Regardless of where the stimulus occurs physically, the sensation is in the clitoris. Nerve endings elsewhere, including the g-spot, Skene’s gland, and rectum may all create arousal. That arousal is centered in the clitoris. There is no orgasm without clitoral involvement.

      The debate and discussion about the female orgasm is largely political. As I alluded to earlier, and Dr. Jeremy confirmed, there is a tendency for some people of both sexes to attempt to separate out different kinds of orgasms, and even to assign kudos to people who can elicit certain female responses. I’ve seen it here at HUS.

      As owners of the equipment, we find it alarming to be told that we should be able to have an explosive feeling in our breasts. The contractions are uterine, vaginal and rectal, and they arise from a buildup of tension in the clitoris.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    … and the second circle, is lust … the prime circle, to trust … to tell a smothered pupil … that hell, is other people …

  • Plain Jane

    “It is the same with women. Regardless of where the stimulus occurs physically, the sensation is in the clitoris. Nerve endings elsewhere, including the g-spot, Skene’s gland, and rectum may all create arousal. That arousal is centered in the clitoris. There is no orgasm without clitoral involvement.

    The debate and discussion about the female orgasm is largely political. As I alluded to earlier, and Dr. Jeremy confirmed, there is a tendency for some people of both sexes to attempt to separate out different kinds of orgasms, and even to assign kudos to people who can elicit certain female responses. I’ve seen it here at HUS.

    As owners of the equipment, we find it alarming to be told that we should be able to have an explosive feeling in our breasts. The contractions are uterine, vaginal and rectal, and they arise from a buildup of tension in the clitoris.”

    > This is all that quack Sigmund Freud’s fault!!!

    I can’t believe people still buy into his bogus “theories” even today.

    Breasts are highly sensitive and feel awesome when stimulated. My complaint is that it seems most men don’t spend enough time there. And yes, its possible to orgasm from breast stimulation (even mind stimulation, my most explosive have been alone, with a lot of mental focus) but the explosive sensation happens in the clitorous.

  • modernguy

    He won her over with LTR Game. No feigning disinterest. These people are in the 80%, finding a way to a relationship despite the fact that they’re breaking contemporary SMP rules. I believe most relationships occur this way.

    Maybe. To make that claim you’d have to determine exactly what percentage of women are seriously looking for an LTR, and when. It’s a good bet that some of that group would be looking to settle down after getting their fill on the carousel, especially in the upper tiers of attractiveness. And that’s the subset that Roissy and the rest are interested in, because it’s fundamentally unfair and dangerous for a naive man to value a former slut or be fooled into doing so.

    If you’re sincere about having people come together in mutual attraction and respect you should advocate that girls disclose their sexual histories honestly, up-front.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you’re sincere about having people come together in mutual attraction and respect you should advocate that girls disclose their sexual histories honestly, up-front.

      I do advocate that girls disclose their histories honestly when asked, or they may refuse to answer, and live with the consequences. Same goes for guys. I do not see any reason to advise men or women to disclose this information up front, nor do I believe that offering such advice would be effective.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sue: “I assume that the orgasm feels the same in the penis (or wherever!) regardless of where the stimulus originates.”

    They actually feel distinctly different. Male orgasm (well for me) begin and radiates and around the prostate, I don’t feel it in the penis itself, which is more like a “fuse”. But the method of stimulation gives an intensely different quality, in depth, strength, and how far it radiates outward. I’ve described before the difference between “localized lightning bolts” vs. “full-body tidal waves”.

    Sue: “As owners of the equipment, we find it alarming to be told that we should be able to have an explosive feeling in our breasts.”

    I don’t assert anyone *should*. I assert that some women do, as PJ (!!) notes — boobs really are amazing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Male orgasm (well for me) begin and radiates and around the prostate, I don’t feel it in the penis itself, which is more like a “fuse”. But the method of stimulation gives an intensely different quality, in depth, strength, and how far it radiates outward.

      This is also true of the female orgasm, with the clitoris being the epicenter of the sensation.

      I have read that scientists believe that male and female orgasms function very similarly in terms of sensation.

  • Plain Jane

    Sue: “As owners of the equipment, we find it alarming to be told that we should be able to have an explosive feeling in our breasts.”

    I don’t assert anyone *should*. I assert that some women do, as PJ (!!) notes — boobs really are amazing.

    Well, not quite. The boobs feel good but their stimulation stimulates the clitorus. Its like there’s a line of connecting nerve endings between the two. But forget boobs, just the MIND can do this. There is connection between mind and clitorus. The mind is the greatest aphrodisiac and even sex organ.

  • Lokland

    @PJ

    “Men should not think their partners don’t love them if they don’t orgasm with them.”

    Vehemently disagree.

    Female O causes release of hormones including the cuddle-love you hormone.
    According to Susan, hook up (alpha) = no pleasure. Beta = pleasure = O.

    Therefore orgasm = emotional connection to beta via hormone.

    Women not having an O= women not bonding to you long-term for any number of potential reasons.

    @Dr. J

    I believe your three spots are the clit then G and A spot. I’m not long enough to hit the A.

    When standing its a g spot orgasm. Which according to the wife feels different than the clit.

    An actual prostate orgasm feels massively different than a normal ‘penis’ orgasm. One feels good, the other might be a connection to the god I don’t believe in.

    @OTC

    Time to practice. Thanks for the advice.

  • Ash

    Long term marriage are passe. People who want that are fighting a losing battle like cancer.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443684104578062754288906608.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs%3Darticle

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ash

      Thanks for the interesting article on female infidelity. We’ve known about that trend for a while now. I don’t see it as ending marriage, though. In fact, Helen Fisher believes that men are seeking commitment more even as women are cheating more. The article chalks it up to gender equality, but I think it is a direct and predictable response to women outperforming men, or the campaign for female supremacy.

  • Plain Jane

    Lokland October 20, 2012 at 11:23 pm

    @PJ

    “Men should not think their partners don’t love them if they don’t orgasm with them.”

    Vehemently disagree.

    Female O causes release of hormones including the cuddle-love you hormone.
    According to Susan, hook up (alpha) = no pleasure. Beta = pleasure = O.

    Therefore orgasm = emotional connection to beta via hormone.

    Women not having an O= women not bonding to you long-term for any number of potential reasons.
    —————————

    Orgasm is JUST ONE of the ways to release oxytocin (what you refer to as the cuddle-love you hormone). Cuddling, like you mentioned, is another. Any type of affectionate touch releases it, as does breast feeding.

    There may have been a large % of women throughout history who did not orgasm regularly with their husbands, some maybe not at all (Victorian Brits, I’m looking at you). You really think that caused them not to love them?

  • Plain Jane

    “One feels good, the other might be a connection to the god I don’t believe in. ”

    LOL!

  • Valentin

    Just… quoted for truth:

    A woman who actively pursues a relationship after a hookup is more likely to get one. She also feels better about herself if it doesn’t work out, because she was an active agent who tried, instead of being a passive victim.

  • Iggles

    Valentin – I can only seeing that being true for unrestricted woman.

    A restricted woman is going to feel hurt and used that she had casual sex (all sex without established commitment IS casual) and did not get a relationship as she was hoping. As such, it’s not an ideal strategy for the vast majority of women! There are other ways to be an “active agent” in the dating world than taking your clothes off and sexing up a stranger…

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    The guys who are seeking commitment may be concerned about being able to lock something down before the Fuck Phantom is able to strike, since they know that the Phantom is fully operational these days.

    “Nighttime sharpens, heightens each sensation
    Darkness wakes and stirs imagination
    Silently the senses abandon their defenses
    Helpless to resist the notes I write…
    For I compose the music of the night”

    More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/a/andrew_lloyd_webber/#share

  • SayWhaat

    @ Plain Jane:

    I am. I am in no condition to do that during that period (heh), do not feel sexual, and plus its not good for health. That is stuff that needs to flow out of you, not be pushed back up in.

    Wait, is this true? I thought the shape of the penis head helped to scrape things out?

  • Plain Jane

    “Wait, is this true? ”

    Yes, there’s a reason why most if not all traditional cultures worldwide made that a resting period for women, with no sexual intercourse.

    “I thought the shape of the penis head helped to scrape things out?”

    Wrong. And that is just a gross visualization.

    If you like it – do it.

    But be aware that it is going against the flow ;)

  • Tom

    The smart man becomes an expert at giving her oral….The not so smart man thinks all she needs is Dick. If one thinks it is icky, it`s all in their head,(no pun intended)…lol
    Also I totally agree with the Doctor. There are varing degress of promiscuity, by purpose and action. Ive said this before, all sluts are promiscuous, but not all promiscuous women are sluts. Its ok to disagree with my opinion, because its only my opinion.

  • Tom

    Phffttt. Please dont tell my fiance she isnt having a g spot orgasm…..
    A combo of a tongue on the clit and a finger on the gspot, or just a finger or penis on the g spot , to her feels a lot different than just a clit orgasm. Deeper more body filled. The clit isnt just a bud, but it does fan out to surround the entire area. If the g spot was clitoral in origin, it would feel similar, I`m guessing. Hers feels a lot different, and when she has a g spot AND a clitoral at the same time, she about comes off the bed, no pun intended. Not saying it isnt attatched to the clit, it could be, but the feeling she (and many others get) is totally different than a typical clitoral orgasm. I guess it doesnt really matter, she (and others) love the feeling, np matter the origin.

  • Iggles

    @ Tom:

    If the g spot was clitoral in origin, it would feel similar, I`m guessing.

    How do you reconcile that with this statement from Lokland?

    An actual prostate orgasm feels massively different than a normal ‘penis’ orgasm.

    Yet no one is disputing male orgasms originate from the same system, involving the prostate..

    Not saying it isnt attatched to the clit, it could be, but the feeling she (and many others get) is totally different than a typical clitoral orgasm.

    I’m definitely not disputing it feels different. (see my comment #59)

    @ PJ:

    “As owners of the equipment, we find it alarming to be told that we should be able to have an explosive feeling in our breasts. The contractions are uterine, vaginal and rectal, and they arise from a buildup of tension in the clitoris.”

    > This is all that quack Sigmund Freud’s fault!!!

    :lol: I concur!!

    The man had some interesting theories, but many were quite off base and have done a lot of harm in being accepted as gospel.

  • Lokland

    @Iggles

    “How do you reconcile that with this statement from Lokland?”

    Perfectly. I agree with the statement.

    “Yet no one is disputing male orgasms originate from the same system, involving the prostate..”

    I don’t think anyone other than Susan has posited any theory on how the female orgasm occurs. Men are merely commenting on their partners observations that there are different spots which yield different results.

    It could be magical vagina leprechauns for all we know.

    “There may have been a large % of women throughout history who did not orgasm regularly with their husbands, some maybe not at all (Victorian Brits, I’m looking at you). You really think that caused them not to love them?”

    The question is not whether they ‘were’ in love but ‘how much’.
    Your could argue for the ‘enough’ POV but that doesn’t fly with me. I work on the ‘most’ vs. ‘everything else’ principle.

  • Abbot

    “not all promiscuous women are sluts. Its ok to disagree with my opinion, because its only my opinion.”

    All that matters is how a man feels about the one particular woman he is evaluating and if promiscuity is a factor its only because he feel that it is. What other women do or have done is relevant to nothing and how a man feels about a particular women is relevant to no one but himself

  • AmandaSm

    First of all, Susan,
    I appreciate your blog very much.

    I think you may be over simplifying the sexual marketplace that young females face.

    There are effectively four different marketplaces that a young female can choose to participate in
    the lesbian hook up scene
    the lesbian long term relationship scene
    the hetero hook up scene
    the hetero long term relationship scene

    Susan, you should pause for a moment and consider the choices facing a young woman who is a number of standard deviations beneath the mean in terms of attractiveness to young men.

    The evidence is that many of the least attractive females can choose between lesbianism and the hook up scene. There are just no prospects of long term relationships available to some young women.

    I think if you look at the statistics, you will see that in any random group of black females, a large % will be lesbians, and in a random group of white females, a small % will be lesbians
    If you examine the statistics, it is clear that female homosexuality is driven by what is most convenient for the female, what is popular in her social group.

    First example, google the statistics on women who were raised by lesbians. Women over 25 who were raised by lesbians are more than TEN TIMES as likely to be lesbians themselves as women who were raised by heterosexual women. This is strong evidence that lesbianism is learned behaviour, not genetic

    Another example, if you spend time among Smith College alumni, what they will pretty much tell you is that at Smith a very large percentage of the students practice a lesbian lifestyle while at college. Upon graduation, more that 80% of the physically attractive Smith alumni start practicing a heterosexual lifestyle and eventually marry men.

    If you look exclusively at the Smith graduates who are extremely physically unattractive, more than half of them continue to live a lesbian lifestyle after graduation and never marry men.

    Again, there is no proof here, but the strong evidence is that lesbianism is determined by a female’s social group, not by her genes.

    How does this impact black women vs white women?

    Well, if you have population model in which you divide women in to the group that is able to attract a male for a long term relationship, and the women unable to attract a male for a long term relationship, you will find that 90% of white females are able to attract some male for a long term relationship and only 30% of black females are able to attract some male for a long term relationship.

    Assume that of the females unable to attract a male for a long term relationship, 20% of those will decide to live a lesbian lifestyle.

    Do the math for black females. 70% of black females can’t attract a male for long term relationship. 20% of those decide to live a lesbian lifestyle. 70% times 20% = 14% of black women living as lesbians

    Do the math for white females. 10% of white females can’t attract a male for a long term relationship. 20% of those decide to live a lesbian lifestyle. 10% times 20% = 2% of white women living as lesbians

    Again, I invite others who can explain the numbers with a different mathematical model to chime in. I don’t claim to have all the answers & want to hear other explanations.

  • pvw

    @ Bastiat Blogger

    The guys who are seeking commitment may be concerned about being able to lock something down before the Fuck Phantom is able to strike, since they know that the Phantom is fully operational these days.

    Me: I must say, your quip earlier about the phantom had me just about howling! Excellent!

    @ Susan, I think that a good theme song for this thread might be Dave Matthews Band, Crash Into Me. I’ve been listening it lately, and although I remember it from when I was in graduate school and pretty much have the lyrics memorized, as I think of them more and more….Whew!

    http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/996/

  • Iggles

    @ pvw:

    I think that a good theme song for this thread might be Dave Matthews Band, Crash Into Me.

    I love that song! There’s an acoustic version with Dave and another guitarist that is stunning. And yes, I agree that the lyrics are amazing :D

  • kat

    Susan, what is your advice for a girl who’s still reeling from the pain of a bad decision/bad hookup with someone who turned out to be a genuine, verbally abusive douchebag?

    Of course, all contact was severed immediately and this person was not pursued. So that’s over with. But this was my first real hookup (I’ve mostly been in monogamous relationships) and it was with someone who turned out to be a slimy alpha male (or masquerading as one, at least) player. He was such a jerk he did leave me thinking about him and fuming weeks afterwards because of all the insults he threw at me the morning after.

    How do I get over all the anger and pain, so that I can stop thinking about this d-bag and get on with my life/have more healthy hookups in the future?

    Thanks,
    Kat

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kat

      How do I get over all the anger and pain, so that I can stop thinking about this d-bag and get on with my life/have more healthy hookups in the future?

      Thanks for leaving a comment. It feels terrible to be used or misled. Many women have told me the worst part is that they feel foolish and embarrassed. You obviously did not judge this guy’s character correctly. There’s nothing you can do about this one except FIDO (F*ck it drive on).

      However, there are good ways to prevent this ever happening again:

      1. Pay attention to his reputation.

      2. Do not have sex until you know him well and that he is interested in a relationship with you.

      I realize this is inconvenient and can take a while, but it’s the only insurance against being pumped and dumped. You need to filter out alpha douchebags aggressively.

      As for hookups being healthy, I don’t see it. Sure, it’s fun to make out with a guy you’re attracted to. But as for casual sex being healthy, no. It’s not even healthy for the women who are wired for it, and it doesn’t sound like you are. The healthiest choice you can make is to require emotional intimacy as a prerequisite to physical intimacy.

  • Ted D

    I call BS that “going down” is beta. Want to frame it alpha? Simple.

    I tell my wife that getting her off orally pumps me up AND gives me a great sense of power over her orgasms. And when I do it, I always make it a point to get several of them out of her, just to drive the point home. ;-)

    And that isn’t a lie. I feel VERY powerful when I’m getting her of orally. In fact, I’ve told her that to me it’s a lot like playing a fine and responsive musical instrument. She said she is glad I like music so much. Lol!

  • Ted D

    In regards to 69 being difficult. Personally I LOVE it when my wife has to stop what she is going and lay her head on my thigh because she can’t concentrate while she is having an orgasm. Better yet, when she starts back up it is usually with increased vigor.

    We don’t do it often though, because she gets tired pretty quickly.

  • Ted D

    Oh, and it doesn’t hurt for a guy to make an effort to keep those oral orgasm coming until she asks for a break. I always go for two or three, bit on occasion I’ll just keep going at it until she is physically exhausted. Once I get the first one, I can keep her right on the edge and pop several off in a row, so every once in awhile i go for broke and just drive her crazy. She usually taps out around 9 or 10 of them, and then I get mine. :-)

    In a way I see that as showing her that I OWN that shit. Of course we don’t always go for such a session as most week nights its all about getting the job done. But I make it pretty clear that when I want her to have one, she is having one. Or two. Or three… you get the picture I’m sure.

  • Sassy6519

    I’ve yet to ever experience an orgasm from oral. I’m holding out for the time that I do with anticipation though.

  • Ted D

    Sassy – :-(

    Perhaps it is too intense? I’ve found that once my wife (and former partners) have one or two orgams, things get so sensitive down there that all it takes to keep her on the edge is very light stimulation. Then one little flick of the tongue and off we go. (I also do G-spot stimulation with my fingers. I find it very fun to pop off one or two and then try to a g-spot only orgasm next since like I said, things get sensitive on the outside.)

    Maybe its just me, but I honestly can’t see how any man would NOT see this as an alpha thing. It is about as close as you can get to literally controlling someone else’s behavior. Because once I get it rolling, she cannot stop her reaction, and it gives me a great sense of pleasure knowing I can control this so effectively.

  • HanSolo

    @Sassy and Ted D

    It may be possible you’re not orally orgasmic or maybe you haven’t had a guy who knows what he’s doing down there. I dated a woman who told me she didn’t get off on oral. I took that as a challenge and we agreed it couldn’t hurt trying and she orgasmed and told me that I should become an oral instructor and that her past boyfriends/men didn’t know what they were doing. lol

    Ted, you sound like you’re passing your oral exams with flying colors! :)

    I’ll also report that women have reported to me that the g-spot stimulation and orgasm feels different than the clitoral and that it usually takes some time for the g-spot area to get “turned on” and cause significant sensation. I kind of follow one of Ted’s patterns of clit first, g-spot second.

    Finally, you (generic men) have to go about it in a non-supplicating way and some women have told me they don’t like it when a man is too worried about getting them (the woman) off and want him to just ravish her in a male-selfish kind of way and this will either get her to orgasm or later he can do fingers or oral.

    Main point is that it sounds like a lot of men need to be better in bed, many women need to take more responsibility for their orgasm, and men should not be supplicating, needy orgasm-givers trying to curry favor with her. Present it as giving her an orgasm because it turns you on. Maybe later, once she’s really in love you can once in a while give o’s in a more beta, caring way, but it’s probably best to tie it back to how getting her turned on and giving her an orgasm turns you on, thus making it about the both of you and not just her.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – I may have been a beta pussy in a lot of ways, but never in the bedroom. Sure, I never went crazy with positions and stuff (which I’ve fixed by the way…) but I have always owned the sexual stuff. Even my ex told me after our divorce that she never had complaints in that dept. It wasn’t lack of skill on my part that killed our sex life, it was her lack of desire to feel sexy towards me because of all my other issues.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted

    Glad to hear you’ve always “owned” it and by adding in more positions you’re even more of a skilled tiger now.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Sassy,

    I’ve yet to ever experience an orgasm from oral.

    Yeah me too. Glad I’m not the only one, was beginning to think there was something wrong with me. :-P

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – strangely enough this comes directly from my views about monogamy. If a woman is going to promise to be with me and ONLY me for the rest of her life, I figured I’d better bring the noise.

    My failure was in not realizing just how much stuff outside the bedroom is necessary for a woman to get that sense of sexual satisfaction. Not stuff like sexting, but just general behavior. She needs to be satisfied with everything else BEFORE she can be satisfied fully in the bedroom. It is the fuel that fires her sexual desire, and my behavior in my first marriage went far too beta. All beta, all day does NOT fuel that fire, and I let my ex-wife’s fire die out.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted–I feel your pain about being too beta and thinking that I just needed to beta it up even more, with a past gf from my Mormon days. I just wish I would have known then… We dated for a year and then she started getting distant which only made me try harder…until it got so painful that I just told her that we should stop seeing each other for a while and she responded by breaking up.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I’d be interested to know what Dr. J’s take on this study would be:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100823185415.htm

    ” it is just as easy — in fact, may even be easier — to fall in love and begin a healthy long term relationship with a woman after having sex with her on the first date as it is with a woman who has made you wait for weeks or months before having sex.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Rollo Tomassi

      I’d be interested to know what Dr. J’s take on this study would be:

      Sorry, Dr. J isn’t home, but in his absence perhaps you would care to look at my own analysis of the study, back when it first came out:

      Does Hooking Up Lead to Relationships?

      For the lazy muffins, short version:

      The essential ingredient producing relationship satisfaction is intent to enter a serious relationship. Those who began casual sexual relationships with the hope of achieving a serious commitment were ultimately as happy as those who had waited until they were serious to have sex.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – yep. it is exactly how Athol describes it. It turns into a self-perpetuating horror story. Despite all the effort I put into trying to save my marriage, I was doing all the wrong things.

    But I’m good with it. My ex and I are still very friendly, and we get along much better without the added stress of “being together”. Besides, my new wife is the shit and we don’t seem to need to put in a lot of real effort to be happy with each other. Seems that part of the secret to long term happiness in marriage revolves around just that: a level of compatibility that allows both people to concentrate on other issues without the need to constantly “work” at simply getting along.

    I know, seems like common sense right? Remember, as a child I never saw these types of relationships. In fact, most of the marriages I saw were people that were at best content with each other, and many were two people that despite loving each other often fought like cats and dogs. The reason many of those marriages went the distance wasn’t happiness, but old moral codes that prevented most of them from divorcing regardless of how happy they were or weren’t.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted D

    That pain was what led me to search online about why it failed with my gf and I came across David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating. I read the promo and a lot of it matched with the successes and failures I’d had and so I bought it. That began a long process of realizations and gradual improvements and falling back. I still have some anti-game but at least know enough to recognize bad behavior and not put up with it (for long) if she won’t get her act together.

  • Iggles

    Sassy and Olive – This makes me sad. I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with you regarding oral. Different strokes for different folks, you know. I hate the idea that certain acts are presented as what “right”, when in truth we have different preferences and that’s ok!

    Personally, I love receiving oral :D I’ve had best orgasms from it! There’s more way more I could say on this topic, but I’ll continue later on :lol:

  • HanSolo

    No one should feel bad for not responding as well to one kind of stimulation or another. But I have experienced introducing girls that were more on one side of the fence (either clitoral or vaginal) to the also-green grass on the other side. They definitely appreciated having their horizons expanded.

    For men, combining the right attitudes with the right skills in the bedroom can really set you apart (yes, read/watch material–I found David Shade useful but there are many others).

  • Ted D

    I didn’t want to weigh in on the lack of orgasm from oral comments too much because I’m not a woman, but FWIW I’m with Iggles. I’ve been told by several women including my wife that orgasm isn’t essential fora woman to “enjoy” sex. She told me that when we need to get it done, she derives great pleasure simply from the closeness and knowing she is making me feel good. I’ll add that it makes me feel VERY loved to know that as well.

    As long as you are enjoying yourself, who cares exactly how it works?

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Nina Hartley, the 80s porn starlet, has some videos on the subject. The guide for bi-curious women is the best one, on how to get off a woman. Women vary a lot more physiologically in terms of the shape and structure of their vulva compared to men and penises, and how big her clit is, how close it is to the vagina, whether G-spot vaginal stimulation works or not, etc. all make a big difference on how to pleasure her.

    Mr. Nervous Toes advice for going down on a woman:

    1. Foreplay makes or breaks whether she’ll orgasm easily or not, the actual mechanical part of cunnilingus isn’t the important one to learn. Tease, taste, move around, build the anticipation with progressive touching and kissing. Moving the clit back and forth through the clitoral hood is basically the final point before you bring in the mouth. You can push, prob, and pull on the pubus mons and labia with your finger to do this, experiment to see what works on her

    2. Use the flat of your tongue, not the tip. Try it on your hand to feel the difference. Ron Jeremy says, “Draw the alphabet with your tongue,” but really all you want to do is move the clit through the cardinal points. If the clitoral hood covers the clit itself, work on it until it opens up on its own (usually). Fondle her belly and thighs with your hands. As a guy its all about my cock, but she gets off on as much touching and stimulation as possible.

    3. Simultaneous use of the tongue on the clit and the fingers in the vagina is good but generally don’t penetrate her right away, wait five minutes before sliding in a finger or two. If a women’s urethal sponge (i.e. the G-spot) hardens up, you can apply a bit up upward pressure (although from Nina Hartley’s videos it’s a lot less than expected). Otherwise, go deep and push down a bit. Digital work simultaneously with the tongue on the clit can really crank things up so do find Nina Hartley’s guide for bi-curious women, it’s got a bunch of unique stuff to do with your hands and fingers.

    4. Suction, depends on the shape of her clitoral hood, but sometime you can do it. You want to keep your teeth away from the clit itself, but she’s less tender once you get her really turned on. Basically if you can shield your lower teeth with your tongue, and wait until you’re about 2/3rds through to start, you should be able to get away with some suction. I generally have trouble applying suction for more than a few seconds at a time so if she seems to be getting close to orgasm I go back to the flat tongue and mechanically move it through the cardinal points.

    There’s no real blueprint for getting a woman off orally, they’re all a little different in what they want and most women are too shy to tell you. Generally watch their face, if their hands are on their face or their eyes are rolled back in their head, you’re probably doing it right. If they’re looking and you and fondling their boobs, you probably should increase the pace and pressure.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Thank you Mr. Nervous Toes for writing the oral sex guide.

      Generally watch their face, if their…eyes are rolled back in their head, you’re probably doing it right.

      Haha, safe bet.

  • Ted D

    I know I’m getting close to popping that first one off when my wife starts scratching my shoulders with her fingertips. Faster the scratching, closer the O. ;-)

  • Tom

    Ted
    Maybe its just me, but I honestly can’t see how any man would NOT see this as an alpha thing. It is about as close as you can get to literally controlling someone else’s behavior
    _________________
    I agree Ted it isnt about being Alpha or Beta, its about being a MAN who cares enough to make sure SHE gets her pleasure too…Simple as that.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    Off-topic but worth watching in terms of alpha versus beta dynamics.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc

    Evo psych all the way.

  • http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

    I have to LOL at the, “is cunnilingus beta?” canard. I know this is an issue in the rap community but like Ted I cannot possibly understand why a man wouldn’t understand how much power he derives from it (because women want it). Perhaps if the man is bad at it and is shamed for being inexperienced?

    Let’s rephrase:

    “I’m making my women aroused, is this alpha or beta?”

    Hrm…. How many angels can dance on the head of that pin again?

  • Jennifer

    I have not been on this website for awhile, but I am glad that the decision I made was the right one. One night I hooked up with the guy that I had a thing for a long time. By “hooking up” I mean: I gave him a hand job. And well this is embarrassing to say, but he didn’t reciprocate. After this I cut him off. I am so glad I did not have sex with him.

    If he doesn’t make sure you do – he’s too into you.

  • tsimmons

    Getting to know a man over time as a friend first is much less risky and requires less faith than falling into bed with a stranger.

    I hate to see this advice get repeated, because it’s just so disingenuous.

    Men wouldn’t be so angry about friendzoning if it weren’t for all the smug psychobabble out there like this.

    It’s precisely the fact that women (and people who write advice for women) run around talking about how important it is to be “friends first” that men fall into the trap. “Well, gee, this is good, right? We’re being friends first. That’s what they say you’re supposed to do in the magazines and online and stuff.” No, dude. Run.

  • Sai

    So much win in these comments ^_^

  • Doc

    “Going down on a girl is definitely beta, especially if you’re doing it for her.”

    I would have to disagree since being older – much – I’ve often used this to cement her addiction to me. Let’s be honest – most younger guys are clueless when it comes to making a woman exhausted with orgasm after orgasm. Being older, I learned how to conserve my strength for what I want, while wearing her out with a little fun. It also allows you to see how she’ll respond to anal when she’s worked up and enjoying your attention. Ultimately, everything is designed for my benefit – but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be win-win.

    When it comes to an 18 year old 10 who’s experiencing things for the first time – there is no better way to show who is in charge than doing what you want, and being able to play her body like a fine instrument. More than a few times I’ve had such a woman gasping and proclaiming undying love since “she’s never felt anything like that”. So the “all in a day’s work ma’am” with a wink seals things. Not to mention that after several hours of exhaustive pleasure there are few things she will deny you. Not that that would stop me – but why not make her want to please you more than anything?

    I’ve learned in business that the BEST deals are one where the people who are giving you the most, THINK they are getting the best out of the arrangement. That is fine with me. I really don’t care what others think – the person that matters to me is ME, and she is my means to an end… It really is that simple… So her craving me and my attention, serves my goals since I can call, or text, and she will respond quickly and pretty much drop everything to work with my schedule. The best pets are ones that crave your attention… So don’t knock anything that gives you the upper hand… Just make sure that you never lose focus as to the ultimate goal – which should be that it serves your overall benefit… Machiavelli was an excellent role model…

    Plus, I’ve had most success with getting a reluctant girl to agree to a threesome, when it “just happens”… Of course, your mileage may vary – but over the years I’ve had time to see what works best and what doesn’t. Semi-bi women server my interests better than straight women since I like two, and with me the only way there is going to be a threesome is two women. I like staking my claim and using it. :)

  • Iggles

    @ Mr. Nervous Toes:

    I have to LOL at the, “is cunnilingus beta?” canard. I know this is an issue in the rap community but like Ted I cannot possibly understand why a man wouldn’t understand how much power he derives from it (because women want it).

    This makes me laugh too!

    Honestly, I think cunnilingus is neither alpha or beta. It’s neutral IMO. I think the problem some guys have is determining whether it’s a dominate or submissive act, and that can really change depending on the frame.

    Some men may view “servicing” their lady puts them in a submissive role. Whereas other men charge ahead, and see themselves as the dominate one who is in control of her pleasure. (exhibit A: Doc’s comment :lol: )

  • Iggles

    @ Jennifer:

    If he doesn’t make sure you do – he’s too into you.

    I can’t agree with this more.

    @ RWC:

    I have not had a relationship with a guy who is smart and patient enough to work with me to figure it out. They have x, y, and z positions calculated in their head that they insist must work, and if they don’t then there must be something wrong with my hoo-hah.

    That really sucks :(

    I’ve been fortunate that the guys I’ve been with have been enthusiastic about making sure that I get off and putting in the time to figure out how in the early days.

    IMO, selfishness in bed is a dealbreaker!

  • Iggles

    Ha! Just noticed the typo, Jennifer.

    Here’s how I bet we both read it:
    If he doesn’t make sure you do – he’s not too into you.

  • Passer_By

    @Sassy

    “I’ve yet to ever experience an orgasm from oral.”

    In my experience, it is by far the most sure fire way to induce an O, if done right. Look me up when you’re in LA. ;)

    @modernguy

    “Going down on a girl is definitely beta, especially if you’re doing it for her.”

    Bzzzzz. All this alpha posturing on the Internet. Going down correctly is dominant act of control, even if “for her”, whatever that means.

    As to sex or oral during the period, count me out, though I suppose if she wanted some manual stimulation during that time, I wouldn’t be averse.

    As to 69? I think it’s a turn off to most women due to the inherent supplication by the guy. Or maybe I just don’t like it, so I’m rationalizing. YMMV.

  • Iggles

    @ Passer_By:

    As to 69? I think it’s a turn off to most women due to the inherent supplication by the guy.

    I disagree. I don’t see anything supplicating about 69. In fact, it’s all about equality. Both partners are simultaneously receiving and giving pleasure..

    Some women may have issues with the man on top (I heard women who have experienced sexual assault say this, in regards to feeling trapped). With side by side positioning that point is moot. *shrugs*

  • INTJ

    @ Passer_by

    As to 69? … maybe I just don’t like it

    Bah.

    http://lokwi.com/upl/1813.jpg

  • Ion

    @ Doc.

    re oral

    “I would have to disagree since being older – much – I’ve often used this to cement her addiction to me. ”

    And it works I tell ya! IT WORKS!!

  • Ion

    Mr. Nervous Toes

    “There’s no real blueprint for getting a woman off orally, ”

    But there is. You wrote a good one at 106 :-D

    A guy I dated said he was so good at it because he watched girl-on-girl porn. If anyone needs a visual reference. I don’t know if I need to add that it’s also superhot when the guy takes pride in his ability, and looks at you like “I want to and can do this ALL DAY until you come”.

    He wasn’t alpha (well, he had a 6 pack and worked for homeland security, but was beta and LTR oriented). This one was a couple of years ago, but I remember his one true talent to this day.

  • Ted D

    “I disagree. I don’t see anything supplicating about 69. In fact, it’s all about equality. Both partners are simultaneously receiving and giving pleasure..”

    There is NOTHING supplication about 69, IF a man approaches the right way. I tend to enjoy it mostly because I see it as a challenge: who will “pop” first. I’ll tell you I have never lost because I concentrate VERY hard on getting her off first, and that concentration gives me great “dick control” as it is commonly called. My goal is ALWAYS to get her to the point where she has to stop and simply “ride the wave” before I’m close, and in most cases at that point I’ll toss her off me and go at it. And again, everytime we go this route I frame it as something *I* want because it turns me on. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING I do in the bedroom simply for my wife. You can be sure she sometimes makes requests, and I just about always oblige. But, even then I make sure to say something like “well you’ve been a VERY good girl this week, so I think you deserve a reward” and then go about doing whatever it was she asked for. Truth is I very much like making her feel good, but I frame it as being about me first when possible.

    I don’t know if it makes one bit of difference, but my wife has no complaints. And, not only does it get a giggle or two from her, but she is NEVER resistant to following my lead in bed. Ever.

    I’d credit the Red Pill for this, but honestly I’ve always been this way regarding sex. I may not have tried every position out there, or even gotten very adventurous, but when it came to sex in my LTRs, well like I said, I OWNED that shit.

  • Ted D

    I’d like to add that I’m very disappointed. We have a perfectly good thread discussing actual sex and instead the SOI post is blowing up?!

    I get it. TMI. What can I say? I’ve never been one to be afraid to discuss the details. In fact I’ve learned a lot by having this exact type of discussion over beers with friends.

  • HanSolo

    @Ted D

    I think your attitude about framing it as what you want to do and telling her she’s been a good girl this week is good. One of my favorite positions is the woman lying face down and me lying on top…kind of like a lying-down doggy style. Does that have a name? For me it’s always been the position with no name. lol

  • HanSolo

    On urban dictionary they call it down doggy style.

  • Ted D

    “On urban dictionary they call it down doggy style.”

    LOL I don’t name them, I just use them.

    I like that one as well, but also enjoy good old fashioned doggie and ‘bent over the bed standing up’ as well.

    Shit man, anything that gets my P in her V is good for me. All this exercise I’ve been doing as the added benifit of stronger legs and more flexibililty. I might have to get myself a copy of the karma sutra soon and really rock her world. :P

  • HanSolo

    I personally love the set-up where I’m reading or something, basically ignoring her, and then she comes slinking up all sexy, like an ignored cat that starts rubbing against your legs, and seduces me and rides me on top and takes advantage of me, finally awakening the inner tiger and then after a good 20 minutes of her on top and her cumming I throw her off and ravish her in whatever way I want.

  • Ted D

    LOL. My wife likes to mess with me while I’m on the phone. To be honest I find it extremely hot, so despite my mild protest for her sake I do my best to be on the phone around her. :P

    Woman on top is my best for endurance. Not so much because she is doing all the work (although that helps of course) but I’ve learned to concentrate on watching her to the point that I can delay my normal response. (which of course ends all the fun) My wife is on to me though, and now she has made it one of her missions in life to force me to a finish when she is on top. Now that she is doing the Couch to 5K program with me, I’m in trouble. Her general lack of endurance does a lot to help me delay the inevitable in this situation, but if she can manage to last longer AND work it harder, I’m gonna need to up my game.

  • Ion

    Ted D

    “I’d like to add that I’m very disappointed. We have a perfectly good thread discussing actual sex and instead the SOI post is blowing up?!”

    Seriously!

    NSFW, but some great advice has been given here.

  • Ted D

    NSFW? Do you have people looking over your shoulder? :p

  • Tyler

    I’m a guy whose a huge fan of the friends first thing, and probably what would be called here a “Beta” man. That said in my experience, whenever I try the friends first approach I get stuck in the friends zone. Even if women complain about it they seem to expect guys to be the sexual aggressor, which is kinda understandable, but not only that he has to move quickly or he automatically gets moved into the friends only category. Basically it seems women conclude if a man isn’t at least trying to get sex on a first date hes not quite a real man or hes just not interested or something. As for the guy who mentioned cunnilingus, I love to eat out and I think you will find that a lot of beta guys do. I think you would find a lot of Beta men really want to please their woman, and they also have a subconscious sense rightly or wrongly that they should try to earn intimacy whether its a date kissing sex a bj whatever. So a lot of them will jump at a chance to go down and stay there as long as she wants, or maybe even longer lol. Women seem to make the incorrect assumption that men who aren’t as overtly aggressive aren’t enthusiastic for sex aren’t any good at it and can’t be aggressive and spontaneous if given the green light to do so. We just tend to actually believe that stuff out there about consent is sexy, and we tend to feel a bit shy about openly displaying the lust we feel inside, like it might not always be appropriate or something. Anyway, women are complicated these days. Theres all this feminism out there and no means no consent is sexy stuff and yet actual women I meet seem to want the aggressive somewhat domineering type guy, or expect it anyway.