Nathan Harden
I finally got around to reading Nathan Harden’s Sex and God at Yale: Porn, Political Correctness, and a Good Education Gone Bad. Harden was a home-schooled kid whose education sort of petered out. He applied to Yale with his GED and was rejected. After doing a variety of odd jobs, he got into Yale on this third try at the age of 22. (The Admissions Director later told him that he’d simply worn her down.) In love at the time, he married, and the newlyweds set off for New Haven.
Harden’s status as a married undergraduate afforded him the opportunity to observe Yale’s sexual culture objectively. His report of that experience does not approach the quality of William F. Buckley’s God and Man at Yale, his inspiration for the book. He does chronicle a whole new level of radicalism on campus, though, and it’s shocking. I first became aware of Harden when I he blogged for National Review during Yale Sex Week. That series landed him a book deal and here we are.
One of the moments in his story that jumped out at me had nothing to do with the faculty or administration, but with fellow students. Studying abroad, he visited London and crashed on a female classmate’s couch while there.
The next morning I awoke to find myself sprawled out on one of the couches in the living room. Several of the girls who lived in the flat were sitting around talking…they had been out the night before and their conversation, naturally, turned to talk about boys. They started talking about the hookup scene back at Yale. Their conversation went something like this:
- Oh my gosh. Have you ever been with a football player?
- Yeah, they can be pretty awesome. They work out a lot.
- Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.
- Ha-ha! Totally.
These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous. I once heard a wise woman say, “No matter how many times women tell themselves they don’t care, they’re still getting fucked.”
Harden agrees:
I was amazed. Could it be possible, I thought to myself, that these girls don’t understand a fundamental fact about the human male? You normally don’t have to trick a man into having sex…Don’t [these girls] realize that’s why most guys show up at college parties in the first place?
…College girls are the special target of today’s radical sexual culture. It is a culture that asks of them everything and offers them nothing. It is presided over by a legion of academics who have been enamored of the sexual revolution ever since the Summer of Love. These academics enjoy calling themselves feminists, but they fail to see that the sexual revolution left many young women feeling powerless.
True, but even more disturbing, the culture leaves many women feeling a false sense of power. Their empowerment only gives them the opportunity to objectify themselves, not males, who rarely mind in any case.
Sexual liberation never really empowered women in the way it was suposed to. A woman is truly objectified when men don’t even have to get to know her in order to get her into bed. Without any commitment to modesty or sexual restraint, the worthy cause of debojectifying women loses much of its gusto. I know it sounds very 1950s, but playing hard to get might not have been a bad idea for feminists, if power is what they were after.
Feminists at the Yale Women’s Center talk about birth control as a form of empowerment…But they never talk about keeping one’s zipper up as a potential form of empowerment…It’s hard to be a randy sexpot and a deobjectified feminist at the same time.
Indeed.
{ 1786 comments… read them below or add one }
1 2 3 … 12 »
“Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”
Really? REALLY?!
*smacks head off desk repeatedly*
What in the hell is going on with our youth? How can any woman let alone a supposedly educated women get to 18 years old and NOT know that most men are DTF with little more than a nod? And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!
For the love of God how did we get here?
“…these girls don’t understand a fundamental fact about the human male? You normally don’t have to trick a man into having sex…”
Call me Captain Obvious, but this just sounds like simple projection to me. Just about every woman I’ve ever talked to has a story about getting tricked or manipulated into sex, or about a man trying to manipulate her into sex.
Ted:
I’ve heard women talk about this: sex gives them a sense of power — over their own bodies, over another man’s body. She gets to use his body as a plaything. She gets to choose the man she will have sex with. She can walk out the door knowing if she wants sex, she can get it.
Little does she seem to understand that the men are more than willing participants, simply lined up waiting to be selected.
Deti – I get that. My point was more about how we made an environment where young women didn’t know this by default. In the process of “empowering” our daughters, we kinda made them stupid. At least when it comes to men. Now I wouldn’t suggest we go back to telling them “all men are pigs” but somewhere between that and “dumb guys being used for sex” is a healthy view of male sexuality.
I’m really tired of us as a society always going to extremes. I know that I’m guilty of it to an extent when I start my ranting, but I often do that because I think there is a need to offset all the BS coming from the other extreme. But truthfully I’ve always believed the truth is somewhere in the middle, and we just keep smacking the ball from one end of the court to the other.
Well, a lot of problems are caused because no one actually tells you anything about life because the focus is entirely on academic achievement, not on actual life skills or anything that doesn’t involve going to college.
You just kind of experience things and are generally confused as to what’s going on because you don’t know what’s going on and have no frame of reference for anything.
When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”
This reminds me of when my sister and I were young children. She would have something (toys, money) that I wanted so I told her “you better not throw that at me”. She then proceeded to throw whatever she was holding at me and run away, thinking that she had gained the upper-hand, while I walked away with the goods. I learned very early that you can make someone behave against their best interests by making them feel good or empowered about doing it.
So much for common sense. A common trait amongst the “brightest”.
Far be it for me to not call young women stupid (oh they are), but isn’t there an incentive story here.
Women want sex with hot men. The only reason they hold back is because they don’t want to raise a kid without support. Birth control nullifies this problem, so they can have lots of hedonistic sex without consequences.
There are social consequences, and feminism is mostly about eliminating them. All the rationalizations are ways to have the fun (hedonistic sex) while trying to minimize the social consequences (guys seeing you as lower value because you’ve damaged your paid bonding ability).
Some girls fuck up the musical chairs game called turning 30 and end up without a chair, but that has always been true.
We have denied biological sex differences for at least two generations. The projection is actually going in both directions at a fast rate, because neither sex understands the most basic things about the other.
Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)
@SI
That’s a hilarious story. Here we are talking about 20 year old Yale students! This is the power of feminism.
@asdf
Interesting, Harden doesn’t see an apex fallacy. From his book:
“At Yale, a guy…only has to show up at a random party and talk to some girl for a few minutes – and make sure she has a few drinks. It’s so easy. “
@ Escoffier
That was exactly my reaction haha.
Susan – ” Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”
Meh. I had hair down to my ass once upon a time. I didn’t see that it generated any additional interest from the ladies, but I used to chuckle when people would go out of their way to avoid passing too close to me on the sidewalk. I imagine its because as a bigger guy it looked more intimidating than “emo hawt”
I most definitely did not understand parties in college.
But then I was looking for enlightenment.
>> “Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”
I have a huge soft spot for pretty boys with long hair!!!! Even “sexy ugly” was a thing for me (it’s not), I definitely wouldn’t put him in that category.
Btw this is a bit off-topic, but here’s some useful Girl Game stuff from Haley’s Halo. I stand by my pro-makeup stance!
:
http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/what-women-mean-by-makeup-vs-what-men-mean-by-makeup/
“not liking makeup” doesn’t mean “not liking visible makeup,” it means “I don’t want to make out with you if it’s going to leave me with a mouthfull of chemicals, waxes, and powders.”
If it’s more than lipstick and eyeliner, it’s too much makeup for daily wear. Women wouldn’t need pounds of foundation if they hadn’t already destroyed their complexions with foundation in the first place.
My general rule for makeup is, if I can tell you have on makeup, you have on too much makeup.
I don’t know if its just me, but to me too much makeup just smells bad. I think it is probably foundation, but whatever it is when you get close to kiss or something it just smells kinda gross.
IMO more than a little lipstick, eyeliner, and maybe some shadow is overkill in all but the most formal settings. (even then I prefer the “natural look” which I know isn’t natural but you get the idea) I’ve never seen my wife in more than eye liner, lip gloss (she says lipstick feels gross. *shrug*) and some shadow. Maybe she is blessed with good skin tone or something (I honestly don’t know much about WHY base is necessary) and her Irish heritage always leaves her with just a little hint of blush naturally. (and a hella ton of it when she drinks LOL) All I know is I would NOT want to lean in and kiss her of she smelled like an Avon counter!
These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous.
There is your solipsism, Susan. Those women literally cannot imagine that the men think differently than they do.
@ Susan
“Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”
This is what makes you hot? Good gawd. I’d show you my highschool yearbook photo.. but i tracked down every copy in existence and ran them through an industrial shredder. I burned down half the internet to keep that image from ever seeing the light of day again.
The only racing pulse women got from me in high school was apparently caused by a fight or flight response…
@ VD
“There is your solipsism, Susan. Those women literally cannot imagine that the men think differently than they do.”
I’ve always thought i’m somewhat of an empathic creature, capable of putting myself in someone elses shoes to see their side of things, even if i don’t agree. Then it’s simply a matter of a logical argument that takes shape, if the logic is sound, my position changes.
Are these women simply incapable of ‘putting themselves in someone elses shoes’… hence solipsism?
I once heard a wise woman say, “No matter how many times women tell themselves they don’t care, they’re still getting fucked.”
LOL. That’s why so many expressions defining being taking advantage of–getting fcuked, getting screwed, etc–are sexual metaphors.
These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous.
No, deep down inside, they know. It’s post-coital rationalization. I’ve used the clumsy cat metaphor before, but these girls are really like clumsy cats. Ever see a cat make a get clumsy and then look at you as if to say, “Yeah, I meant to do that”? This is the same thing. These girls know they have nothing to show for these experiences, but they don’t want to lose face by admitting they’ve been taken advantage of. They pretend that “scored” like the guys do in order not to feel bad. I find it fairly transparent really.
They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”
This is so funny.. and so sad at the same time and it fits with what Hannah Rosin wrote in “End of Men.” These women think they are so empowered with their casual sex. They have so much to learn.
One of the schools my daughter is applying to was just named “Best School to Get Laid” by Playboy Magazine. Fun times ahead.
“Are these women simply incapable of ‘putting themselves in someone elses shoes’… hence solipsism?”
I used to think it was a lack of instruction, that is, no one ever taught people how to see things from a different point of view.
Not so much now. The more I look at things like IQ vs. EQ and MBTI personality stuff, the more I’m thinking that indeed some people are simply not capable of it. Not to say any of them are stupid, but I think that for many, if it isn’t a natural trait, it simply doesn’t happen. It amazes me how tightly some people live inside their own bubble of reality. I do it as well myself, but I’ve also learned somewhere along the way that if I don’t step outside every once in awhile, I’ll completely lose touch with reality. (or at least the reality that isn’t inside my little bubble.)
What surprises me is that the E vs. I doens’t seem to play a big part. I know plenty of both, and they are both fully capable of missing the forest for the trees. I kinda thought that the E’s had an advantage here, but what I see is the E’s simply have a much easier time of being “social”, but that doesn’t help them much with seeing another side of an opinion much.
J – “These girls know they have nothing to show for these experiences, but they don’t want to lose face by admitting they’ve been taken advantage of. They pretend that “scored” like the guys do in order not to feel bad. I find it fairly transparent really.”
So group self-delusion? If so, then part of the problem is that they all buy into this claptrap.
You go Grrrrlllll indeed.
When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”
LMAO. Yeah, Roissy sure would!
Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)
If my older son grew his hair out, he’d sort of look like that. Big, dark eyes, raw-boned face. …
@M3
I think empathy IS majorly lacking in the younger generation, so that probably adds to this problem.
But beyond that, our parents never really taught us how men think. Like Ted D said, the spiel I got was pretty much “all men are pigs; do not trust them.” :-/
@VD
I agree! I think that feminism has exacerbated this female tendency, which is at least a little ironic.
It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.
@ Maggie
UNC? I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that.
“And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!”
I wish we could send them a video of how “victimized” their dumb jock was, with his buddies the next morning. And how “empowering” it would be to hear all the nasty things, of theirs, that gets shared.
I wouldn’t go that far. But I think he’s extraordinary looking. Very unusual and exotic. I also know he’s smart, conservative and HOH in love with his young wife. That makes him even sexier.
I think he was fighting the girls off at Yale. He includes a couple of stories about being propositioned by girls who had no idea he was married. Propositioned as in the middle of the day, not at some party. I can assure you this guy is sexy in Girl Land.
“What in the hell is going on with our youth? How can any woman let alone a supposedly educated women get to 18 years old and NOT know that most men are DTF with little more than a nod? And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!”
That’s what happens when you buy into the lie that there isn’t (or shouldn’t) be a sexual double standard.
It’s hard to be a randy sexpot and a deobjectified feminist at the same time.
Me: But here is the thing, the sex pozzies of the third wave want to be objectified. The old curmudgeon types of the Catharine McKinnon radical feminist mold were howling about objectification. These young things believe they are empowered by their choice to be sex objects.
These sorts of debates seem parodoxical if they are unmoored from their context in competing schools of feminist theory.
@Ted
I imagine its because as a bigger guy it looked more intimidating than “emo hawt”
I’m imagining Meatloaf.
So group self-delusion? If so, then part of the problem is that they all buy into this claptrap.
Yes, they feed into each other’s BS. If one of them would say, “I don’t know. I sometimes feel used,” they’d all collapse into tears. The framework that holds up the illusion is that fragile.
I once casually mentioned to a bunch of bragging she-jocks that maybe guys just like sex, and they all started mumbling and cursing behind my back. They thought I couldn’t hear them, so I turned around and smirked knowingly. Tough as they though they were, all their faces fell. I hope I woke them up a little, but I’m sure the hamsters starated turning the wheels after I left. Who wants to admit being a fucktoy to themselves?
There’s a very intense sexuality to that look. I think it’s the combination of large eyes, which implies emotional intensity, and the prominent bone structure, which is very masculine. He looks tough as nails in some ways, but like he would be very passionate.
You’d better keep an eye on that son, and when he reaches a certain age, explain how men have no “choice.”
J:
“I once casually mentioned to a bunch of bragging she-jocks that maybe guys just like sex, and they all started mumbling and cursing behind my back.”
Me: Because they think they are some special snowflakes just because some guy is willing to have sex with them, that having sex with you really means that he wants/likes/desires/loves you. They can’t imagine that maybe, just maybe, he is merely tolerating you for as long it takes for you to service him!
It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.
Many of the most negative posters, here and in the ‘sphere, have entire complicated and detailed worldviews that extrapolate nearly entirely from their own bad personal experiences. They tend to state opinions as fact and not use the word “I” much, but it’s still solipsism.
@INTJ
UNC? I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that?
Yes!
Me: But here is the thing, the sex pozzies of the third wave want to be objectified. The old curmudgeon types of the Catharine McKinnon radical feminist mold were howling about objectification. These young things believe they are empowered by their choice to be sex objects.
I’m very confused by this. Back in the day, feminism was synomous with prudishness and feminists were often suspected of being lesbians. Feminism fell of my radar after college until I stumbled into Jezebel. Imagine my surprise!
Obviously, something happened in the intervening years, but I’m not sure what is was.
J – Just for you:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/.facebook_-631023203.jpg
Don’t laugh! (OK laugh all you want LOL)
Note that this pic was taken just before I cut my hair and went “legit”. also note that at this time I was on my way to a pique weight of over 385. (I honestly don’t know how heavy I got because I didn’t have access to a scale that went high enough. I should have pulled over on the Turnpike and used a truck scale.
)
Like I said, big and scary.
J: I’m very confused by this. Back in the day, feminism was synomous with prudishness and feminists were often suspected of being lesbians. Feminism fell of my radar after college until I stumbled into Jezebel. Imagine my surprise!
Obviously, something happened in the intervening years, but I’m not sure what is was.
Me: Younger women rejecting the feminism of some of their elders, which was seen as prudish, ie., anti-sex, setting forth women as victims of men and male sexuality (C. McKinnon). They felt this way in particular because the anti-sex attitude fit in with the mindset of the conservative right bent on curtailing women’s reproductive freedom. They wanted to see sex as empowering, but without addressing the differences and the inequalities in the sexual realm, they miss the lessons of their elders, ie., C. McK.
Thanks, pvw! That makes loads of sense. This is the second time you’ve succeeded in explaining the world to me.
“- Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.
- Ha-ha! Totally.”
Ha Ha indeed. What’s the moral of the story here?
That this won’t work on Beta’s because they’re ‘smart’ hence they’ll be too smart to fall for such tricks and sleep with them, so these poor girls only have stupid jocks to choose from in order to trick them with parlor tricks like dancing and kissing in order to get them to sleep with them?
Goddamn oversmart beta’s, it’s their brains that prevent them from getting laid.
This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.
J: Thanks, pvw! That makes loads of sense. This is the second time you’ve succeeded in explaining the world to me.
Me: You’re welcome.
>> “This is what makes you hot? Good gawd.
>I wouldn’t go that far. ”
I would! I think it has a lot to do with the attraction spectrum of high-T “manlier”-looking men vs. lower-T “pretty boy” types. I definitely tend to be more attracted to the “pretty boy” side of the spectrum.
There’s a very intense sexuality to that look. I think it’s the combination of large eyes, which implies emotional intensity, and the prominent bone structure, which is very masculine. He looks tough as nails in some ways, but like he would be very passionate.
He looks Byronic. A few months ago, a middle aged woman said to me that it was tragic that he is too young for her and too old for her daughter. I was floored.
You’d better keep an eye on that son, and when he reaches a certain age, explain how men have no “choice.”
I’ve already had that discussion with both boys, especially regarding abortion. Although I can tell you that if some girl tried give up a grandchild of mine for adoption, there’d be a landmark legal case. I really question that an unrelated, 40-something UMC couple would be a better custody choice than young bio-dad and loving grandparents.
@Ted
OMG, that pic makes you look like one of the 10 Most Wanted. No wonder people cut you a wide berth on the sidewalk! How old is that pic?
@Ted
This was your Hell’s Angels period, I take it. Wow!
Love the piercing stare. Is this a mug shot?
@pvw
No, they were upset because on some level I got to them. They knew I was right.
More pics of Nathan Harden:
His CD cover:
Susan – “OMG, that pic makes you look like one of the 10 Most Wanted. No wonder people cut you a wide berth on the sidewalk! How old is that pic?”
yep LOL. Remember I did the lead singer gig for an alternative metal band for awhile. I knew I didn’t have the face for the “glam rock” look, so instead I went full on scary monster. The pic is from the early 2000′s, and when I was gigging I didn’t have the full beard. Instead I had a goatie long enough to braid.
I took that pic for my avatar on a guild board for a MMORPG I used to play. My ‘toon’ (character in game) was female, and I found it immensely amusing when people first saw it.
J – “This was your Hell’s Angels period, I take it. Wow!
Love the piercing stare. Is this a mug shot? ”
Oddly enough I was actually past my “rebellious” phase by this time in my life. The look was strictly for show. Many people in the metal scene simply did NOT take a band seriously unless they looked the part.
I did intend it to look like a mug shot of sorts. And I had to retake it like 5 times to get that “piercing stare”. I’ll say it freaked people out a lot. It was even better when I was out with my band mates in a setting other than a club or bar. We were all scary looking.
I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that.
An INTJ complained about that? Color me shocked.
Even more amusing, I was sporting that look WHILE working for a fortune 500 company as a shift supervisor on their help desk. Not too long after I cut my hair and cleaned up, I got a promotion.
Imagine that!
The older I get, the more surprised I am by women’s sexual preferences when I discover them. The lean and hungry look has a lot more appeal than men usually think. Men tend to believe that women prefer a lot of musculature, but that isn’t necessarily the case.
I have no doubt Nate could quit himself well in a fight with another man, but even if he came off on the losing end, I can’t see his woman going off with the winner. That puzzles men no end, and throws sticks into the spokes of the bicycles Roissy, Roosh, FFY and a few of the other hardcore Ev-Psych types are pedaling about the androsphere
Believe it or not, I know women who would have made a bee-line for Ted in his SOA-looking days. I have heard my daughters’ friends gush over Jax, Tig, and Bobby. Jax I can understand. He’s written to soak panties. But Tig? Bobby???
MCB – “Believe it or not, I know women who would have made a bee-line for Ted in his SOA-looking days. ”
It got me attention, but from women I was not interested in for obvious reasons.
It is sooooo not the case with me. I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out. Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!
I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy. I think his jutting hipbones would be sexy. But I’ve always liked the hipster look. I’m not alone – my guess is that skinny, brooding types, who are often called “bad boys” even when they are not, as in Nathan’s case – outperform PUA types by a mile.
Susan – “but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday”
Did I mention I’m doing a Couch to 5K program?
I’ll never have one of those “runners” bodies. even at my best around 212lbs, I was a stocky dude. I’ve got solid Polish/Austrian bone structure so I suspect even my skeleton would look bulky! In fact if you put me in a WWII German uniform I’d look perfectly normal. Hey, sounds like a good haloween idea…
Susan,
The girls here are talking about any football player, not any man. What you mean is “any man deemed attractive by women doesn’t have to try.” Since men who aren’t attractive become invisible this becomes “any man.”
@Emily
Thanks for linking to Haley’s Halo – I haven’t been there in a while. She has the greatest illustrations, she’s awesome at that! Very funny.
@asdf
I know, I was just quoting Harden. I was a bit surprised that he perceived it is generally easy for men to hook up at Yale.
>> “’ll never have one of those “runners” bodies. even at my best around 212lbs, I was a stocky dude. I’ve got solid Polish/Austrian bone structure so I suspect even my skeleton would look bulky”
I have a couple close friends who tend to prefer the “bulky” look. It was always funny when we’d talk about guys because they were very much NOT into the Nathan Harden type. One of my friends once joked that “Emily likes her men to look as much like women as possible.” >:(
I didn’t deliberately pick my friends this way, but it was really convenient since we never wound up competing over guys.
@Ted
Well, different strokes, haha. I’m not a believer in anyone being universally attractive. I know several tall women that want a man to be not only tall, but also big. I think they like feeling dwarfed by a male.
Also, I recall back in the day before I got together with my husband, a classmate told me that she thought he was really sexy, but that she would never have sex with someone whose hips were narrower than her own. Obviously, I had no such qualms…
Susan – it’s all good. No one can be attractive to everyone. But I have on more than one occasion said something similar to my boys that Emily’s friends told her: that I swear most young women want a girlfriend with a penis instead of a man. Both my boys are sporting that emo look, and it drives me nuts that when I talk to them I can barely see one eye. (how does covering half of your face make you attractive?)
“More pics of Nathan Harden:”
I can see it now. If he cut his hair short, he’d be a total Chris Noth.
I don’t think I could be attracted to a woman whose hips were narrower than mine.
WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips! Is the man supposed to be a truck to compensate?
“WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips!”
Of course! what else would you have to grab onto while you’re… uh… Maybe this comment belongs in the “sex” thread.
Ted D
“Both my boys are sporting that emo look, and it drives me nuts that when I talk to them I can barely see one eye. (how does covering half of your face make you attractive?)”
Because it’s like… sooooo mysterious… gawd.
Perhaps it’s why both out pics contain us wearing sunglasses.. we’re taking mysterious to a level over 9000.
Ted D
“Of course! what else would you have to grab onto while you’re… uh… Maybe this comment belongs in the “sex” thread.”
Why the sex thread?
…what else would you have to grab onto while you’re picking her up and moving her out of your line of sight to the tv while she’s yelling at you to stop playing xbox and listen to her talk about how so and so pissed her off at work today and how her boss was a total dick and how the chick in the mailroom has something against her…
I’ve been reading this website and very much appreciate and agree with most of your viewpoints, Susan. The state of sexual relations in the US is deplorable – the normalization of sex acts once deemed deviant and unmentionable in polite society. The only thing that disappoints me is the wholesale condemnation of feminism as the fount for this crumbling morality. Feminism is actually the advocacy of human rights for half the world’s population that has been under institutional bondage for centuries.
To be as concrete as possible, if a woman steadfastly does not identify herself as a feminist, she should then avoid the taint of hypocrisy by doing the following:
1. Do not vote at all. — It would be hypocritical to enjoy the fruits of the Suffrage Movement (helmed by feminists) while bashing their contributions.
2. Do not attend a co-ed university. — Universities were forced to desegregate by gender in the 1970s as a result of affirmative action. In fact, women are the one who have most benefited from affirmative action.
Side note: As a last ditch effort to stop the Civil Rights Act of 1964 from passing, Republicans insisted on including sex in addition to race, ethnicity and religion for protection from discrimination — because it seemed so ludicrous to include the protection of women’s rights that the act would surely fail. What a surprise when it did pass – and what a windfall for women!
3. Do not attend any graduate school. — Again women for centuries were barred from institutions of higher learning. Only feminists argued that women were in fact biologically more than capable of becoming doctors, lawyers, scientists…
4. Do not work outside the home after marrying and having children. — Historical opponents of feminism credit the decline of civilization to the outsourcing of childrearing and housekeeping by working women. Therefore, to do otherwise would be to become a feminist or hypocritically enjoy the fruits of the struggle of feminists.
5. If you are single, must work and are sexually harassed by a boss or co-workers, do not think you can avail yourself of any protection against sexual harassment. — Again validation of this workplace danger was hard-won by feminists so it would be hypocritical for an anti-feminist woman to seek protection and redress.
6. Do not use contraception. — Again feminists were the ones, often social workers who at much personal risk to themselves, advocated the use of contraception because of the high rate of maternal death in childbirth in the past, especially in the slums.
7. Do not purchase any property or accept any inheritance. — Again women did not always have rights to property and inheritance. Think Jane Austen’s time? The reason why Jane Austen wrote so much about courtship and marriage was because that was the only viable alternative to poverty that single women had at the time.
+1
I am always reminded of that scene in Knocked Up where Seth Rogen is asking for advice from his father, and then almost demanding it with, “Tell me what to do. Tell Me What To Do!” and his father says, “I don’t know.”.
Life in the UMC is all about getting these pieces of paper from certain specific, “qualifying” institutions so that they can get hired by the “right” companies or intern at “prestigious” firms.
Leaving aside the myriad logical :facepalms: in the above, the little “factoid” about the Civil Rights act is false.
Did you notice the second comment there:
Perfect.
@Ted D
“Don’t laugh! (OK laugh all you want LOL)”
Lol, you looked like you killed people in your spare time.
>> “To be as concrete as possible, if a woman steadfastly does not identify herself as a feminist, she should then avoid the taint of hypocrisy by doing the following…”
*brings out 10 foot pole*
I’m grateful for the achievements of early feminists, but I think North American feminism has overstayed its welcome. At this point, they’re doing more harm than good to both men AND women.
I’m still very supportive of the feminist initiatives in the parts of the world where women actually *are* oppressed (ie. in the Middle East) but if anything, reading about those causes makes me realize how petty/whiny the North American feminist issues are.
@Southamerican
How Sith Lord of you.
If your not with us you must be against us.
Emily, don’t even bother. If you want, and if I can muster the interest, I can take that post apart point by point. There is almost nothing true in it. Just move on.
Yes, this is right.
Guys wanted to look like Ah-nold for their own purposes. They “juice” for their own purposes.
When girls go on and on about pixie haircuts, or bobs, or whatever, it is mostly for their own purposes, which is not a bad thing. But, the idea that, “Ugh, I do all of this FOR YOU” (complaining to her boyfriend about makeup, and hair, and clothes) is usually laughable.
I know several tall women that want a man to be not only tall, but also big. I think they like feeling dwarfed by a male.
Most girls want to feel feminine at some point. Very tall girls don’t always have many options to feel that.
I knew one girl in college who was 6’1 and she was always hanging around the basketball team. I don’t know if she ever got “passed around”, but, it was somewhat obvious that she was looking to plant in fertile ground.
A hobby horse of mine is that many guys are looking to date guys with tits.
No way, Chris Noth is the opposite of a skinny emo. I’ll grant you they both have dark, heavy eyebrows.
This cracked me up. She is a very tall woman – I think she is one of those who doesn’t want to worry that she’ll squash a guy like a bug in bed, lol.
I think Harden looks like some kind of necromancer.
Re: women hooking up and having nothing to show for it afterward…the alpha females on campus would probably scold women for being so “transactional” about sex, and accuse them of being “whores.”
From my limited understanding of changing campus social mores: having sex primarily for recreational or conquer-the-world purposes is essentially ok, and a woman who does so may be called “The Maneater” or “Samantha” or given some other sobriquet that similarly implies ferocity, power, liberation, strength, danger, cold-bloodedness, etc. If she has sex as part of a deal to secure a relationship with an eligible man, however, she is guilty of all manner of crimes. Someone who just abstains completely must be “repressed” or “neurotic” or “provincial.”
The intention really does seem to be to establish that gender-related sexuality differences are just a social construct, and to “prove it” by linking N and self-esteem in a way that was usually associated with fraternities and male jocks. Stories abound that glorify turnabout female pump & dump scenarios in which a man wants a relationship and the woman wants to keep it strictly sexual.
The idea that men (well, at least *some* men) may be the chief beneficiaries of this experiment is taboo.
@M3
I’ve always assumed that is not you in the pic. I have a hard time squaring it with your commentary over the months.
Oh, M3, don’t start with the whining about women. Please.
@Southamerican
Eh, I take your point, though I think you’re missing the real issue – the feminist movement is so fractured and fragmented that it is simply impossible to make a broad statement that one agrees or disagrees with feminism. I am on record as being a gender equity feminist, which I believe gives me the right to avail myself of all those nice little bennies. (Re the Pill, feminists do not get credit for that. It was that + the Women’s Movement that brought us the Sexual Revolution.)
I believe that the goals of gender equity were achieved long ago, and what is called feminism today is actually a female supremacy movement. Books like “The End of Men” which celebrate the diminishing achievements of males, are detrimental to a healthy society, in my view.
Specifically, I reject any and all aspects of Sex-Positive feminism, so popular on college campuses today, and the branch of feminism Nathan Harden is arguing against.
@Ramble
I must admit, that does prove your point perfectly.
Oh, this is a pet peeve of mine. American feminists refuse to condemn female genital mutilation because “we should respect other cultures.” Stoning for adultery, anyone? What hypocrisy.
Emily,
I would argue that the reason why there is so much sexual immorality (casual sex, threesomes, S&M, etc) that is now mainstream among North American/European youth is not because of the embrace of feminism per se but rather the disavowal of godliness.
I know that Christianity is the much maligned religion du jour. I anticipate attacks from intellectual (and not so intellectual) atheists and agnostics. Just as they have a right to express themselves, so do I.
The way I see it is this: Sexual promiscuity entered the scene when respect for God went out. I consider myself a feminist and am very grateful for the gift of freedom that I have as a woman in 2012.
The reason why First World feminism’s concerns may sound trivial in comparison to the travails of Third World women is precisely because of the victories won by feminists in these countries and the current subjugation of women in the others where any ounce of feminism is swiftly and brutally suppressed.
Does that mean that I subscribe to what may be now popularly identified as the feminist agenda? No, not at all, when it conflicts with my religious beliefs. In other words, abortion as a form of birth control – No! Sex outside of marriage – No! That’s what the Bible calls fornication. It does not mean that God does not want us to have fun. He loves us so much that He made sex a pleasurable act. But it’s also dangerous to engage in outside of the covenant of marriage. Sex is not a sin – sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is a sin. Why? Because God made us and loves us so much that He wants the best for us. The best is to keep sex within marriage.
If you think orgies, threesomes, etc are a modern development of sexual liberation, NO WAY! Many ancient cultures embraced these sexual practices. It was the Jews and Christians who were the square ones because God forbid sex outside marriage. If you think “saving yourself” is old-fashioned, think again – it was counter-cultural in ancient times. Today many people say that people are born homosexuals — Not in Ancient Greece! Socrates, Plato and other ancient philosophers observed that the highest form of love was between two men because they were intellectual equals. All men in ancient Greece were expected to have wives but also engage in homosexual acts – that was their norm! So the Jews and Christians were seen as very counter-cultural and NOT normal.
Bottom-line: I am saving myself for marriage because I trust God’s guidelines for life. By the way, He also tells men to save themselves for marriage as well– especially in the New Testament! The reason why male promiscuity is not equally as condemned by society is because of patriarchal bias, NOT because of what God says.
I wonder what they’d do if one of those guys was to sue for taking advantage of him while he was intoxicated.
“This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.”
Best comment yet~
Now I’m picturing players passing the woman around the court.
@BB
LOL, you are right! He looks like a young Snape!
Brilliant summary of the script.
Yes, well that would be quite embarrassing and a major Fail. With all the negative publicity about hookup culture, I’ve been seeing some articles by feminists who say, “The beauty of hookup culture is that it’s there if you want it!” As if it’s some emergency store rather than a living culture that shapes incentives and behavior.
Susan,
Thank you for clarifying that distinction in terms of being a gender equity feminist. I did not get that from the posts that I read because it seems that you universally dismissed feminism. It’s bad enough when men bitterly spout off about feminist women, but when women do it, it’s like a divided house that will fall.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment that gender equity has been achieved in the U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control is not; 6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months — again, Viagra coverage as an illustrative example); gender parity in pay – from what I read, newspaper ads in the past used to advertise for men only and women only for the same job but very different pay; women who choose to become housewives not earning Social Security benefits because their collective responsibilities as childcare giver, cook, maid and chauffeur are not monetarily valued or compensated by current legislation; limited funding support for women who take care of their ailing parents (since oftentimes women overwhelmingly are tasked with this job among siblings).
It’s one thing to be cognizant of the failings of feminism, but to decry the term so liberally is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Worse: It sets a poor example for young women to distance themselves from the word in order to curry favor with men. It’s kind of like a self-hatred.
I am pleased to call myself a feminist and a Christian, citing the areas that I may disagree with but always honoring both.
Old expression based on an older expression: “You can lead a girl to Vassar but you can’t make her think.”
Don’t feed the trolls. You were doing better when you told me to shut up, already.
Also, Susan, the reason why I chose to comment on your post is because I generally agree with your encouragement of young women to value themselves and devalue popular culture’s message about sex. I support your website’s mission because I keep agreeing with much of your advice (with exception of sex outside marriage).
I know that not everyone is a Christian and not all Christians support abstinence. I respect everyone’s journey – what I like about your advice is that you engage young women in thinking for themselves about the consequences of all this “free love” nonsense that the media is peddling and inviting men to contribute their thoughts.
It’s very powerful for me to read when men wholeheartedly agree that they respect modesty and sexual restraint in women. Somehow, on some primal level I guess, it makes it more real for me – it’s like a brother or father giving your advice their stamp of approval. So for that, great job!
I just wanted to point out that it’s equally important to value the contribution of past and present feminists who are actively working to ensure the protection and promotion of women’s rights – because in effect when women do well, families and society do well. That’s why international microfinance loan programs focus on women because mothers are more likely to use their earnings to help pull their family ahead.
The fact that I admire the strength and sacrifices of women does not in any way diminish my admiration of men. I do not equate feminism with man-hating at all – in fact, men who angrily put down feminism raise a red flag for me. Any man raised by a hardworking and loving single mother would know differently.
” it seems that you universally dismissed feminism. It’s bad enough when men bitterly spout off about feminist women, but when women do it, it’s like a divided house that will fall.”
Lol, cause men aren’t ‘in the house’?
SouthAmerican
“Again women did not always have rights to property and inheritance. ”
Reads like “at one point, women weren’t entitled to diamonds, Kleinfield Bridal, and riding ponys” as far as I’m concerned. Many of us didn’t have grandparents who could afford inheritance, or property to pass on, many people still don’t.
Susan
“Oh, this is a pet peeve of mine. American feminists refuse to condemn female genital mutilation because “we should respect other cultures.” Stoning for adultery, anyone? What hypocrisy.”
Totally agree. They also take a pro-crime stance, and refuse to convict men in high crime areas for any atrocities against poor women and children (children are usually props to incur sympathy about any issue they see fit to embrace, but “safety of children” is never thought of in this situation).
I.e. they are often out there petitioning that criminals be released early, and they are anti-cop. So it’s really only middle class american males they want to emasculate/hold “accountable” for behavior of men past and present. Not really men in general.
personally:
Chris Noth = masculine, high testosterone, super attractive.
Emo = “Twink”.
Wow, that guy is attractive? I really can’t avoid laughing whenever I see his face.
“God…I’m just…so deep…the pain…the first world is so tough…ugh, see my scars!”
I don’t mean to diss the guy too much. He’s smarter than me. But damn, I hate that picture.
@Southamerican
FIRST REASON I HATE FEMINISM:
Sex-positive feminists proselytize casual sex and hookup culture. If you’re against casual sex, you have to be against sex pozzies, who are the face of contemporary, “4th wave” feminism.
Hannah Rosin:
“To put it crudely, feminist progress right now largely depends on the existence of the hookup culture.”
SECOND REASON I HATE FEMINISM:
And yet American feminists excuse and ignore those atrocities:
Women distance themselves from the word because they do not identify with or relate to many of the goals of feminism, and generally find feminists to be unpleasant, strident people. In polls, only a quarter of women consider themselves feminists.
That is simply not true. College enrollment is 60% female. Women are no happier today than they were before the Women’s Movement. In cities, 20-something women earn 117% of what their male peers earn. In a recent survey by Forbes, 84% of mothers said they would like to stay home full time if they could afford it.
Susan, you make one error. These are Yale students. Majoring in Snobbery and Networking. Not the best, not the brightest. Merely well-connected.
@Mike M.
These girls also come from we’ll-to-do families.
Radical Chic anyone?
Susan
“I’ve always assumed that is not you in the pic. I have a hard time squaring it with your commentary over the months.”
> How so?
“Oh, M3, don’t start with the whining about women. Please.”
> hehe… sorry. I wasn’t complaining about women *in general*. I was describing what actually happened between me and my ex on several occasions.
She worked for an insurance company, in HR, with 2 other female HR staff, and reported to a female boss. I’m sure you can imagine just how awesome the little backstabbing intersexual competing climb over each others rotting corpse get to the top shenannagins made her the cheery person that would meet me at home after an hours commute
Kids attending “elite” schools are probably more likely to be accepting of social memes being pushed by the “progressive” intelligentsia than kids attending not-so-elite schools.
SA: “The reason why male promiscuity is not equally as condemned by society is because of patriarchal bias, NOT because of what God says.”
Patriarchal bias? Try: biological demand for eggs vs sperm. It’s hard for men to get laid, compared to women. That’s why it’s not condemned equally outside of religious contexts.
Your ideas of gender equity, meaning someone else better pay for your stuff, is bit naïve. Equity means you get not special dispensation for free stuff based on your sex any more than men do.
Equity really means nobody’s going to give you a hand, just like men have to cut it on their own or die.
@Southamerican
“U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control”
Why would you compare Viagra and BC?
Beyond involving sexual function they are taken for vastly different reasons.
PS Not saying BC= slut.
“6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months”
I think if women ruled the world we’d all be forced to ride ponies to work.
You built a straw man from an argument no one has given and then proceeded to destroy your own straw man.
Hypotheticals on what one group would do are actually illegal and discriminatory even with evidence backing them up.
Ex. Black guy walks into a TV store with no one there. He’d probably steal the TV.
………………
Waste of my time.
Viagra is NOT covered for sexual reasons.
The next morning I awoke to find myself sprawled out on one of the couches in the living room. Several of the girls who lived in the flat were sitting around talking…they had been out the night before and their conversation, naturally, turned to talk about boys. They started talking about the hookup scene back at Yale. Their conversation went something like this:
– Oh my gosh. Have you ever been with a football player?
– Yeah, they can be pretty awesome. They work out a lot.
– Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.
– Ha-ha! Totally.
LOL…you couldn’t make this stuff up. This is both solipsism and projection on full display.
I agree! I think that feminism has exacerbated this female tendency, which is at least a little ironic.
It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.
Susan, I about fell off my chair reading this recalling how strongly you protested when I first brought this up in a comment. Looks like you were persuaded on this one.
I’ll note it was my comment here that started that entire discussion across several blogs.
Many of the most negative posters, here and in the ‘sphere, have entire complicated and detailed worldviews that extrapolate nearly entirely from their own bad personal experiences. They tend to state opinions as fact and not use the word “I” much, but it’s still solipsism.
No, J, you continue to confuse what solipsism is and is not. What you are describing is overgeneralizing. That is an error as well but it isn’t solipsism. Read the excerpt again of the girls talking. They are literally projecting how they perceive things onto the men. They literally cannot conceive that men interpret differently
“If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”
They literally cannot conceive that men don’t view the situation like (“being played”).
I know you are smart so you should get the difference between solipsism and overgeneralizing.
I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out.
This is part of it no doubt. There is the male competitive instinct, plus there is an immediate intimidation factor at work.
Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!
I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy.
I think you are. I think overall womens’ preferences in body types vary MUCH MORE than men. Men like different types with some preferring a bit thicker or some more waifish, but I don’t think you see the range of preferences women show. Any guy who has built up his musculature considerably knows that many women ***really*** like it.
This is Arnold in in Mr. Olympia days:
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&noj=1&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=B5JkctFMEBKjvM:&imgrefurl=http://www.popstarsplus.com/politicians_arnoldschwarzenegger.htm&docid=fl5GukAlt8vOCM&imgurl=http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/ArnoldSchwarzeneggerPicture.jpg&w=600&h=813&ei=dg6KUMu6F-fWyQG7noHgAQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=308&sig=106077039016368313723&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=101&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0,i:183&tx=59&ty=79&biw=1400&bih=710
He got more ass then a toilet seat in the late 70s.
This guy is on the cover of a bunch of romance novels and money talks:
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTg0NDQ4Nzk0NF5BMl5BanBnXkFyZXN1bWU@._V1._SY314_CR7,0,214,314_.jpg
Interestingly, Mike O Hearn I think might fit that bill of high T and developed musculature, and some aspects of a masculine face mixed with some more feminine features.
What I haven’t been able to deduce is what separates the women how prefer more of the skinny look from a more developed build. I would have thought it was linked to certain traits but Sassy’s physical preferences have steered me away from that hypothesis. I think restricted versus unrestricted might play some role in it.
In any case, the positive takeaway for guys is you really should know someone out there will appreciate “your look” unless maybe you are a 5’4″ fat guy with an acne face. But short versus tall, thin versus built, different facial structures, I think it can vary.
@ Emily:
HAHA, I’ve heard that same exact joke from my friends!
Haters.At first I was startled by Harden’s pic. Then I stared at it longer. Then I blushed.
Wow, I’m sure loads of guys would love to work their assess off to become husband material for those women.
WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips! Is the man supposed to be a truck to compensate?
Escoffier,
You are mixing up a ratio with absolute numbers. Women have “wide” hips in relation to their waist. What is the classic hourglass figure? 24″ waist with 36″ hips. Guys are blocky (no curves) so the waist and hips will basically be the same.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment that gender equity has been achieved in the U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control is not; 6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months
6 weeks is incorrect.
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/
Eligible employees are entitled to:
Twelve workweeks of leave in a 12-month period for:
the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth;
I wouldn’t be shocked if there were other factual inaccuracies in that list as well.
I mean, why bust your ass studying at University for 3-6 years (depending on degree) and then spending the next 5-10 years building your career, so that you can mate with 30 years old plus women who have already been fucked by bunches of other dudes, when you can spend 1 year in the gym in your early twenties and get to mate with young, unused girls in their prime?
The first strategy requires shitloads of effort and restraint for a shitty reward while the latter strategy requires fuck all effort for a fucking awesome reward.
These women are creating an incentive structure that ensures there will be no good men around to marry when they’re older.
from above
and this isn’t even taking into consideration that with the first strategy, the mating isn’t even long-term, it’s until the woman wants cash and prizes.
Interestingly enough, I rarely (if ever) get approached by visibly high-T/”bigger” men, so I think that there’s some sort of mutual disinterest/LJBF happening there.
I’m really tired of us as a society always going to extremes.
Yeah that is one of the key traits of this culture that baffles me you whether love or hate there is no moderation or middle ground. My guess is that is a left over from being a warrior nation. You don’t have an identity without an enemy, YMMV.
But truthfully I’ve always believed the truth is somewhere in the middle, and we just keep smacking the ball from one end of the court to the other.
This is one of the reasons that I mention often how a male dominated culture works. Many of the comments on the manosphere claim that men are more noble and that things would be better with men having the total control…not really no. We need to correct feminists mistakes without forgetting the good points and try to create a new society in which both genders can have rights and responsibilities according to their abilities. Patriarchy run amok is as bad as feminazism, YMMV.
I didn’t deliberately pick my friends this way, but it was really convenient since we never wound up competing over guys.
Likewise we were similar in college but we all found our partners/crushes completely unattractive no female sexual competition keeps the herd together.
“This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.”
Best comment yet~
Comment of the week for sure.
Emily, don’t even bother. If you want, and if I can muster the interest, I can take that post apart point by point. There is almost nothing true in it. Just move on.
I think there is a couple of blogs that had debunked all this lies maybe a link to it would work best. Let her be someone else’s problem.
It is sooooo not the case with me. I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out. Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!
Solipsism alert! First, straight men most certainly do not get muscled for one another. That is pure female projection, Susan. We get muscled because it feels good to be powerful and it feels great to have women constantly feeling your pecs, your biceps and your triceps. There is simply no comparison. I have a naturally delicate build, but put on nearly 50 pounds through hitting the weights over the years. So I have observed that women, on the average, react much more strongly and much more positively to men with well-developed musculatures. Furthermore, it tends to be the hottest, fittest women who prefer the hardest men. Think about it. Who is going to pound you harder and throw you around the bed more easily, limp-wristed emo boy or Ripped Dude.
Now, I had no problem attracting girls when I was rail-thin. I’m a writer and I could probably brood for England. But back then, I never had pretty women looking up and down and saying “yum” in the street either. Do some guys overdo the weight training? Sure. But there is a huge gap between a scrawny runner and a waddling musclehead who looks like a stuffed sausage in a suit. Think Daniel Craig as James Bond on the beach, not Arnold as Mr. Universe posing on stage. Craig has a fair amount of muscle on him.
I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy. I think his jutting hipbones would be sexy. But I’ve always liked the hipster look. I’m not alone – my guess is that skinny, brooding types, who are often called “bad boys” even when they are not, as in Nathan’s case – outperform PUA types by a mile.
No chance. The PUAs clean up primarily because they are more focused on pursuit. By the time a skinny brooding hipster has emo’d his way into a girl’s bedroom, the PUA will have plowed his way through six or seven women already. It takes time to pose and simper and be noticed. It is fascinating that you mention how you find skinny arms to be sexy. I’ve heard women, including my wife, talk about how “spaghetti arms” and “sunken chests” make them want to vomit.
Although speaking of PUAs, there was an episode of Castle that was right out of The Game. The best part was when the hot female detective, upon realizing to her horror how many moderately attractive women had been successfully seduced by a dead PUA, shook her head and said: “I weep for my gender.” Okay, zero points for proper use of the English language, but hilarious anyway.
Interestingly enough, I rarely (if ever) get approached by visibly high-T/”bigger” men, so I think that there’s some sort of mutual disinterest/LJBF happening there.
This is a cogent observation. I have noticed that adult women who prefer the hipster men are either still attracted to the same type of juvenile men that first attracted them in their early teens, or tend to fall in the 5-6 SMV category. My hypothesis is that the human mind has an unconscious means of limiting its attraction triggers to the members of the opposite sex within an attainable SMV range. It was always astounding to me when a relatively plain woman would confess that she found one of my average male friends to be hot while genuinely exhibiting no interest whatsoever in any of my much better-looking friends. It’s a very healthy and positive spin on the sour grapes fable.
@VD
“My hypothesis is that the human mind has an unconscious means of limiting its attraction triggers to the members of the opposite sex within an attainable SMV range. It was always astounding to me when a relatively plain woman would confess that she found one of my average male friends to be hot while genuinely exhibiting no interest whatsoever in any of my much better-looking friends.”
I like this hypothesis. What could this mean for the brains of, say, 4s who chase 9s? Well, besides the promiscuity being hard-wired thing.
(The more I look at Mr. H up there the more I think of Metalocalypse.)
@BB: From my limited understanding of changing campus social mores: having sex primarily for recreational or conquer-the-world purposes is essentially ok…If she has sex as part of a deal to secure a relationship with an eligible man, however, she is guilty of all manner of crimes. Someone who just abstains completely must be “repressed” or “neurotic” or “provincial.” The intention really does seem to be to establish that gender-related sexuality differences are just a social construct, and to “prove it” by linking N and self-esteem in a way that was usually associated with fraternities and male jocks.
Me: That last sentence explains it exactly!
They absolutely see sex from an alpha male point of view, and so they critique the more traditionalist minded women, those who abstain altogether from the hookup scene because they will only have relationship sex.
It sounds so radical, I can’t help but be jarred by that type of critique coming from a woman.
They rack up numbers like men, because they are so bent on being free from sexual restraint (like they perceive men to be), and so they can’t stand the traditionalist minded women who in their view might as well be members of some neo-Victorian religious conservative Taliban.
I wonder, does their critique of relationship minded women sound today like the kind of thing a man might say, either good naturedly (he is not troubled by it) or with resentment, the expectation that many women have of sex leading to, or existing in the context of a relationship?
I have this imagine in my mind of a man grumbling about some woman he has been sleeping with who now has expectations which he has no interest in and will not fulfill, ie., that they are dating or should be dating….
Like I said, big and scary.
You look rather as if you’re still angry at the first billy goat Gruff.
More pics of Nathan Harden
I suspect he was more successful with women in his previous incarnation as Iggy Pop.
We need to correct feminists mistakes without forgetting the good points and try to create a new society in which both genders can have rights and responsibilities according to their abilities.
And to each according to their needs? Now, why does that sound so familiar….
I wonder if [some] women’s attraction to very slender men isn’t a desire to have slender daughters who don’t have to work at maintaining an optimum weight.
Mesomorph’s daughters have to hit the gym a lot harder.
Agreed – I knew the guys would enjoy this one.
Were you surprised? I wrote a post where I said outright that I cop to female solipsism. It was a very interesting discussion, thanks for starting it.
I will make one observation, FWIW – there are times when I realize a person is engaging in solipsism while at the same time finding their communication highly effective. Perhaps because I am female, I find that I understand abstract concepts better when they’re put into the context of an example, and it’s natural for people to draw examples from their own experience.
I decided not to waste the time chasing the facts down, and chose to argue with her on a few key points instead. Her comments amount to trolling.
Given how much you like skinny arms, Susan, you should probably be sure to be alone when you watch this music video. Especially at the 2:28 mark. I daresay you’ll be overcome with raw desire.
CARIBOU!
I think Mike C had it right – no doubt it’s related to sociosexuality. Nathan Harden is as restricted as they come, so I probably read and like that in his face. (Remember, studies show women can read this from the face alone, probably by looking for testosterone markers.) I think Arnold S. was always absolutely gross.
It makes sense that unrestricteds seek each other out, and it explains why it can be true that 80% of women on campus are not attracted to the douchey lax player.
@VD
More like Tyson Ritter of All American Rejects:
Or Jared Leto:
As I recall, the first time you ever linked to HUS was when I talked about Russell Brand being hot.
The skinny emo boy appeals to a very, very sizable number of women.
@VD
Ah, we were using different metrics for “outperform.” The emo guy is usually, well, um, emo. He does the monogamy “all in” thing, even if he does it serially. He’s good in bed because his EQ is sky high.
The guys like this I’ve known in real life elicit offers outright on a regular basis. No pursuit is generally required.
To each his own, I don’t care who other women are attracted to!
How does this square with hypergamy?
Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.
My comment was not made out of resentment, I honestly thought when I first looked at the pic that it was of an ugly, masculinized feminist intellectual circa 1975. It took a second for me to realize “Wait, that’s a dude.”
As a lanky skinny boy myself, I should be basking in all this female praise of my body type.
Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.
Resentment? Not in the slightest. Susan. We simply think you’re crazy, that’s all… but hey, you like what you like. I don’t think the guy looks anything like Jared Leto, who has very good features. Harden looks more like a transvestite or a drag queen.
The skinny emo boy appeals to a very, very sizable number of women.
That could be. Perhaps we’re just talking about two different pools of women here. But I can’t think of a single time in the last 10 years that I saw an attractive women walking through Milan, Zurich, or London with a skinny emo boy. It occurs to me that even Russell Brand, for all his genuine wit, fame, and skinny emo appeal, is usually seen with the likes of Katy Perry and low-rent glamor models, not the more beautiful girls.
VD – “You look rather as if you’re still angry at the first billy goat Gruff.”
ROFL. Nothing like almost showering my screen with coffee before 9:30am.
Like I said, I knew I couldn’t pull off the “pretty boy” look, so instead I went with old school Metallica. The beard came after I quit gigging, although I think it added nicely to the “holy shit that dude looks like he eats babies” schtick.
While I’m at it I might as well go for a little shameless self promotion. This is one of the songs we recorded for our promo package. The loud mouth is mine.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/MP3s/Age%20of%20Dissent%20-%20Lies.mp3
Susan – “Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.”
I don’t know if I’d call it hate, but perhaps it is. Personally I’ve known so many guys that look just like him in music circles that I barely even notice just how emo he appears to be. I’ll be honest though, I’ve never really respected guys that look like they would break in half if the wind blew too hard. At least not until I get to know them and see what they are made of. My initial reaction to such scrawny guys is: I could fall on him and kill him!
Also in relation to the track I posted above, I’ve had the previledge of hearing one of Yohami’s songs and I’ll admit I’m a little jealous. Not only does he have a great look, a good voice, and writing skills. The dude has an accent like Antonio Banderas! If he can’t clean up with the ladies, there isn’t much hope for most of us…
How does this square with hypergamy?
Quite well, actually. Women want the best that they can get. I suspect that obese women find chunky little sausage men attractive and claim they don’t find tall, skinny emo boys to be attractive. And yet, if a skinny emo boy expressed credible interest, she’d trade up despite that supposed lack of attraction.
Ever notice how the fat girls who lose weight don’t stick with the overweight nerds, but start dating the jocks they once affected not to like?
You’re kidding me right? Don’t tell me you’ve forgotten Yohami’s famous 200 already.
Susan, I’m curious: would you have thought that Harden was a “restricted” type if you had seen his photos w/o any attached backstory? Or is his appeal that he looks the rockerboy arch-mage part but is in reality a husband and an outspoken and articulate critic of culture hook-up culture (perhaps the cultural equivalent of hybrid vigor)?
I ask because I am curious about what a sociosexually-restricted male looks like like vs. an unrestricted one. Does the restricted type tend to have the somber, rather sad expression of an old soul (as if reflecting his moral disapproval with popular casual sex mores), while the unrestricted manhas the delighted Duchenne smile (or Phantom smirk…?) of a well-contented satyr?
He reminds me of Stuart Townsend’s depiction of Lestat in the movie “Queen of the Damned”. He’s definitely exotic looking, and I find him attractive.
Olive – that was a poor attempt at sarcasm of sorts. I know he does well for himself. Actually he and I chat every so often about music. Not Mich lately because life has been screwing with my “free” time ( the same way it eats my “extra” money) and I haven’t been doing the music thing.
I need to follow up with him on something I asked a few months back now that I think of it…
The idea that we can tell people’s sexual habits and preferences based on facial features strikes me as dubious.
Much* I really hate using my phone to post.
Obese girls don’t date nerds. They’re too busy dying their Bettie Page hair pink, covering themselves with tattoos, seeing at least an eight in the mirror and considering themselves empowered real women as they’re being p&ded by skinny emo hipsters and street thugs. If they were to acquiesce to nerds or others on their SMV level they’d go into complete narcissistic collapse.
1 2 3 … 12 »