The Learned Cluelessness of Women

October 25, 2012

Nathan Harden

I finally got around to reading Nathan Harden’s Sex and God at Yale: Porn, Political Correctness, and a Good Education Gone Bad. Harden was a home-schooled kid whose education sort of petered out. He applied to Yale with his GED and was rejected. After doing a variety of odd jobs, he got into Yale on this third try at the age of 22. (The Admissions Director later told him that he’d simply worn her down.) In love at the time, he married, and the newlyweds set off for New Haven.

Harden’s status as a married undergraduate afforded him the opportunity to observe Yale’s sexual culture objectively. His report of that experience does not approach the quality of William F. Buckley’s God and Man at Yale, his inspiration for the book. He does chronicle a whole new level of radicalism on campus, though, and it’s shocking. I first became aware of Harden when I he blogged for National Review during Yale Sex Week. That series landed him a book deal and here we are.

One of the moments in his story that jumped out at me had nothing to do with the faculty or administration, but with fellow students. Studying abroad, he visited London and crashed on a female classmate’s couch while there.

The next morning I awoke to find myself sprawled out on one of the couches in the living room. Several of the girls who lived in the flat were sitting around talking…they had been out the night before and their conversation, naturally, turned to talk about boys. They started talking about the hookup scene back at Yale. Their conversation went something like this:

– Oh my gosh. Have you ever been with a football player?

– Yeah, they can be pretty awesome. They work out a lot.

– Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.

– Ha-ha! Totally.

These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous. I once heard a wise woman say, “No matter how many times women tell themselves they don’t care, they’re still getting fucked.” 

Harden agrees:

I was amazed. Could it be possible, I thought to myself, that these girls don’t understand a fundamental fact about the human male? You normally don’t have to trick a man into having sex…Don’t [these girls] realize that’s why most guys show up at college parties in the first place?

…College girls are the special target of today’s radical sexual culture. It is a culture that asks of them everything and offers them nothing. It is presided over by a legion of academics who have been enamored of the sexual revolution ever since the Summer of Love. These academics enjoy calling themselves feminists, but they fail to see that the sexual revolution left many young women feeling powerless.

True, but even more disturbing, the culture leaves many women feeling a false sense of power. Their empowerment only gives them the opportunity to objectify themselves, not males, who rarely mind in any case. 

Sexual liberation never really empowered women in the way it was suposed to. A woman is truly objectified when men don’t even have to get to know her in order to get her into bed. Without any commitment to modesty or sexual restraint, the worthy cause of debojectifying women loses much of its gusto. I know it sounds very 1950s, but playing hard to get might not have been a bad idea for feminists, if power is what they were after. 

Feminists at the Yale Women’s Center talk about birth control as a form of empowerment…But they never talk about keeping one’s zipper up as a potential form of empowerment…It’s hard to be a randy sexpot and a deobjectified feminist at the same time.

Indeed.

  • Ted D

    “Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”

    Really? REALLY?!

    *smacks head off desk repeatedly*

    What in the hell is going on with our youth? How can any woman let alone a supposedly educated women get to 18 years old and NOT know that most men are DTF with little more than a nod? And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!

    For the love of God how did we get here?

  • deti

    “…these girls don’t understand a fundamental fact about the human male? You normally don’t have to trick a man into having sex…”

    Call me Captain Obvious, but this just sounds like simple projection to me. Just about every woman I’ve ever talked to has a story about getting tricked or manipulated into sex, or about a man trying to manipulate her into sex.

  • deti

    Ted:

    I’ve heard women talk about this: sex gives them a sense of power — over their own bodies, over another man’s body. She gets to use his body as a plaything. She gets to choose the man she will have sex with. She can walk out the door knowing if she wants sex, she can get it.

    Little does she seem to understand that the men are more than willing participants, simply lined up waiting to be selected.

  • Ted D

    Deti – I get that. My point was more about how we made an environment where young women didn’t know this by default. In the process of “empowering” our daughters, we kinda made them stupid. At least when it comes to men. Now I wouldn’t suggest we go back to telling them “all men are pigs” but somewhere between that and “dumb guys being used for sex” is a healthy view of male sexuality.

    I’m really tired of us as a society always going to extremes. I know that I’m guilty of it to an extent when I start my ranting, but I often do that because I think there is a need to offset all the BS coming from the other extreme. But truthfully I’ve always believed the truth is somewhere in the middle, and we just keep smacking the ball from one end of the court to the other.

    • My point was more about how we made an environment where young women didn’t know this by default. In the process of “empowering” our daughters, we kinda made them stupid. At least when it comes to men.

      We have denied biological sex differences for at least two generations. The projection is actually going in both directions at a fast rate, because neither sex understands the most basic things about the other.

  • JP

    Well, a lot of problems are caused because no one actually tells you anything about life because the focus is entirely on academic achievement, not on actual life skills or anything that doesn’t involve going to college.

    You just kind of experience things and are generally confused as to what’s going on because you don’t know what’s going on and have no frame of reference for anything.

  • Escoffier

    When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”

    • When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”

      Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)

  • SI

    This reminds me of when my sister and I were young children. She would have something (toys, money) that I wanted so I told her “you better not throw that at me”. She then proceeded to throw whatever she was holding at me and run away, thinking that she had gained the upper-hand, while I walked away with the goods. I learned very early that you can make someone behave against their best interests by making them feel good or empowered about doing it.

    • @SI

      That’s a hilarious story. Here we are talking about 20 year old Yale students! This is the power of feminism.

  • Jim

    So much for common sense. A common trait amongst the “brightest”.

  • asdf

    Far be it for me to not call young women stupid (oh they are), but isn’t there an incentive story here.

    Women want sex with hot men. The only reason they hold back is because they don’t want to raise a kid without support. Birth control nullifies this problem, so they can have lots of hedonistic sex without consequences.

    There are social consequences, and feminism is mostly about eliminating them. All the rationalizations are ways to have the fun (hedonistic sex) while trying to minimize the social consequences (guys seeing you as lower value because you’ve damaged your paid bonding ability).

    Some girls fuck up the musical chairs game called turning 30 and end up without a chair, but that has always been true.

    • @asdf

      Women want sex with hot men.

      Interesting, Harden doesn’t see an apex fallacy. From his book:

      “At Yale, a guy…only has to show up at a random party and talk to some girl for a few minutes – and make sure she has a few drinks. It’s so easy. “

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”

    That was exactly my reaction haha.

  • Ted D

    Susan – ” Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”

    Meh. I had hair down to my ass once upon a time. I didn’t see that it generated any additional interest from the ladies, but I used to chuckle when people would go out of their way to avoid passing too close to me on the sidewalk. I imagine its because as a bigger guy it looked more intimidating than “emo hawt”

  • JP

    I most definitely did not understand parties in college.

    But then I was looking for enlightenment.

  • Emily

    >> “Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”

    I have a huge soft spot for pretty boys with long hair!!!! Even “sexy ugly” was a thing for me (it’s not), I definitely wouldn’t put him in that category.

  • Emily

    Btw this is a bit off-topic, but here’s some useful Girl Game stuff from Haley’s Halo. I stand by my pro-makeup stance! 😉 :
    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/what-women-mean-by-makeup-vs-what-men-mean-by-makeup/

  • pennies for sale

    “not liking makeup” doesn’t mean “not liking visible makeup,” it means “I don’t want to make out with you if it’s going to leave me with a mouthfull of chemicals, waxes, and powders.”

    If it’s more than lipstick and eyeliner, it’s too much makeup for daily wear. Women wouldn’t need pounds of foundation if they hadn’t already destroyed their complexions with foundation in the first place.

  • Escoffier

    My general rule for makeup is, if I can tell you have on makeup, you have on too much makeup.

  • Ted D

    I don’t know if its just me, but to me too much makeup just smells bad. I think it is probably foundation, but whatever it is when you get close to kiss or something it just smells kinda gross.

    IMO more than a little lipstick, eyeliner, and maybe some shadow is overkill in all but the most formal settings. (even then I prefer the “natural look” which I know isn’t natural but you get the idea) I’ve never seen my wife in more than eye liner, lip gloss (she says lipstick feels gross. *shrug*) and some shadow. Maybe she is blessed with good skin tone or something (I honestly don’t know much about WHY base is necessary) and her Irish heritage always leaves her with just a little hint of blush naturally. (and a hella ton of it when she drinks LOL) All I know is I would NOT want to lean in and kiss her of she smelled like an Avon counter!

  • VD

    These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous.

    There is your solipsism, Susan. Those women literally cannot imagine that the men think differently than they do.

    • @VD

      There is your solipsism, Susan. Those women literally cannot imagine that the men think differently than they do.

      I agree! I think that feminism has exacerbated this female tendency, which is at least a little ironic.

      It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.

  • M3

    @ Susan
    “Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)”

    This is what makes you hot? Good gawd. I’d show you my highschool yearbook photo.. but i tracked down every copy in existence and ran them through an industrial shredder. I burned down half the internet to keep that image from ever seeing the light of day again.

    The only racing pulse women got from me in high school was apparently caused by a fight or flight response…

    • This is what makes you hot? Good gawd.

      I wouldn’t go that far. But I think he’s extraordinary looking. Very unusual and exotic. I also know he’s smart, conservative and HOH in love with his young wife. That makes him even sexier. 😉

      I think he was fighting the girls off at Yale. He includes a couple of stories about being propositioned by girls who had no idea he was married. Propositioned as in the middle of the day, not at some party. I can assure you this guy is sexy in Girl Land.

  • M3

    @ VD
    “There is your solipsism, Susan. Those women literally cannot imagine that the men think differently than they do.”

    I’ve always thought i’m somewhat of an empathic creature, capable of putting myself in someone elses shoes to see their side of things, even if i don’t agree. Then it’s simply a matter of a logical argument that takes shape, if the logic is sound, my position changes.

    Are these women simply incapable of ‘putting themselves in someone elses shoes’… hence solipsism?

  • J

    I once heard a wise woman say, “No matter how many times women tell themselves they don’t care, they’re still getting fucked.”

    LOL. That’s why so many expressions defining being taking advantage of–getting fcuked, getting screwed, etc–are sexual metaphors.

    These are Yale women – arguably the smartest women in the country, so clueless about sex differences it’s dangerous.

    No, deep down inside, they know. It’s post-coital rationalization. I’ve used the clumsy cat metaphor before, but these girls are really like clumsy cats. Ever see a cat make a get clumsy and then look at you as if to say, “Yeah, I meant to do that”? This is the same thing. These girls know they have nothing to show for these experiences, but they don’t want to lose face by admitting they’ve been taken advantage of. They pretend that “scored” like the guys do in order not to feel bad. I find it fairly transparent really.

  • Maggie

    They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”

    This is so funny.. and so sad at the same time and it fits with what Hannah Rosin wrote in “End of Men.” These women think they are so empowered with their casual sex. They have so much to learn.

    One of the schools my daughter is applying to was just named “Best School to Get Laid” by Playboy Magazine. Fun times ahead.

  • Ted D

    “Are these women simply incapable of ‘putting themselves in someone elses shoes’… hence solipsism?”

    I used to think it was a lack of instruction, that is, no one ever taught people how to see things from a different point of view.

    Not so much now. The more I look at things like IQ vs. EQ and MBTI personality stuff, the more I’m thinking that indeed some people are simply not capable of it. Not to say any of them are stupid, but I think that for many, if it isn’t a natural trait, it simply doesn’t happen. It amazes me how tightly some people live inside their own bubble of reality. I do it as well myself, but I’ve also learned somewhere along the way that if I don’t step outside every once in awhile, I’ll completely lose touch with reality. (or at least the reality that isn’t inside my little bubble.)

    What surprises me is that the E vs. I doens’t seem to play a big part. I know plenty of both, and they are both fully capable of missing the forest for the trees. I kinda thought that the E’s had an advantage here, but what I see is the E’s simply have a much easier time of being “social”, but that doesn’t help them much with seeing another side of an opinion much.

  • Ted D

    J – “These girls know they have nothing to show for these experiences, but they don’t want to lose face by admitting they’ve been taken advantage of. They pretend that “scored” like the guys do in order not to feel bad. I find it fairly transparent really.”

    So group self-delusion? If so, then part of the problem is that they all buy into this claptrap.

    You go Grrrrlllll indeed.

  • J

    When I saw the photo at the top of the page, I thought “Man that’s one ugly chick, Roissy would have a field day that manjaw.”

    LMAO. Yeah, Roissy sure would!

    Whereas my pulse started racing. This is the epitome of the brooding loner type – not bad, just deep. The long hair adds to the rebelliousness, and oh boy we have a hottie! (Though some women might call him sexy ugly.)

    If my older son grew his hair out, he’d sort of look like that. Big, dark eyes, raw-boned face. …

    • If my older son grew his hair out, he’d sort of look like that. Big, dark eyes, raw-boned face. …

      There’s a very intense sexuality to that look. I think it’s the combination of large eyes, which implies emotional intensity, and the prominent bone structure, which is very masculine. He looks tough as nails in some ways, but like he would be very passionate.

      You’d better keep an eye on that son, and when he reaches a certain age, explain how men have no “choice.”

  • Poppy

    @M3

    I think empathy IS majorly lacking in the younger generation, so that probably adds to this problem.

    But beyond that, our parents never really taught us how men think. Like Ted D said, the spiel I got was pretty much “all men are pigs; do not trust them.” :-/

  • INTJ

    @ Maggie

    One of the schools my daughter is applying to was just named “Best School to Get Laid” by Playboy Magazine. Fun times ahead.

    UNC? I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that.

  • Cooper

    “And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!”

    I wish we could send them a video of how “victimized” their dumb jock was, with his buddies the next morning. And how “empowering” it would be to hear all the nasty things, of theirs, that gets shared.

  • Rico

    “What in the hell is going on with our youth? How can any woman let alone a supposedly educated women get to 18 years old and NOT know that most men are DTF with little more than a nod? And worse yet is these women actually feel “empowered” by “taking advantage” of the dumb jock?!”

    That’s what happens when you buy into the lie that there isn’t (or shouldn’t) be a sexual double standard.

  • pvw

    It’s hard to be a randy sexpot and a deobjectified feminist at the same time.

    Me: But here is the thing, the sex pozzies of the third wave want to be objectified. The old curmudgeon types of the Catharine McKinnon radical feminist mold were howling about objectification. These young things believe they are empowered by their choice to be sex objects.

    These sorts of debates seem parodoxical if they are unmoored from their context in competing schools of feminist theory.

  • J

    @Ted

    I imagine its because as a bigger guy it looked more intimidating than “emo hawt”

    I’m imagining Meatloaf.

    So group self-delusion? If so, then part of the problem is that they all buy into this claptrap.

    Yes, they feed into each other’s BS. If one of them would say, “I don’t know. I sometimes feel used,” they’d all collapse into tears. The framework that holds up the illusion is that fragile.

    I once casually mentioned to a bunch of bragging she-jocks that maybe guys just like sex, and they all started mumbling and cursing behind my back. They thought I couldn’t hear them, so I turned around and smirked knowingly. Tough as they though they were, all their faces fell. I hope I woke them up a little, but I’m sure the hamsters starated turning the wheels after I left. Who wants to admit being a fucktoy to themselves?

  • pvw

    J:

    “I once casually mentioned to a bunch of bragging she-jocks that maybe guys just like sex, and they all started mumbling and cursing behind my back.”

    Me: Because they think they are some special snowflakes just because some guy is willing to have sex with them, that having sex with you really means that he wants/likes/desires/loves you. They can’t imagine that maybe, just maybe, he is merely tolerating you for as long it takes for you to service him!

  • J

    It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.

    Many of the most negative posters, here and in the ‘sphere, have entire complicated and detailed worldviews that extrapolate nearly entirely from their own bad personal experiences. They tend to state opinions as fact and not use the word “I” much, but it’s still solipsism.

  • J

    Me: But here is the thing, the sex pozzies of the third wave want to be objectified. The old curmudgeon types of the Catharine McKinnon radical feminist mold were howling about objectification. These young things believe they are empowered by their choice to be sex objects.

    I’m very confused by this. Back in the day, feminism was synomous with prudishness and feminists were often suspected of being lesbians. Feminism fell of my radar after college until I stumbled into Jezebel. Imagine my surprise!

    Obviously, something happened in the intervening years, but I’m not sure what is was.

  • Maggie

    @INTJ
    UNC? I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that?

    Yes!

  • Ted D

    J – Just for you:
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/.facebook_-631023203.jpg

    Don’t laugh! (OK laugh all you want LOL)

    Note that this pic was taken just before I cut my hair and went “legit”. also note that at this time I was on my way to a pique weight of over 385. (I honestly don’t know how heavy I got because I didn’t have access to a scale that went high enough. I should have pulled over on the Turnpike and used a truck scale. :P)

    Like I said, big and scary.

    • @Ted

      OMG, that pic makes you look like one of the 10 Most Wanted. No wonder people cut you a wide berth on the sidewalk! How old is that pic?

  • pvw

    J: I’m very confused by this. Back in the day, feminism was synomous with prudishness and feminists were often suspected of being lesbians. Feminism fell of my radar after college until I stumbled into Jezebel. Imagine my surprise!

    Obviously, something happened in the intervening years, but I’m not sure what is was.

    Me: Younger women rejecting the feminism of some of their elders, which was seen as prudish, ie., anti-sex, setting forth women as victims of men and male sexuality (C. McKinnon). They felt this way in particular because the anti-sex attitude fit in with the mindset of the conservative right bent on curtailing women’s reproductive freedom. They wanted to see sex as empowering, but without addressing the differences and the inequalities in the sexual realm, they miss the lessons of their elders, ie., C. McK.

  • J

    Thanks, pvw! That makes loads of sense. This is the second time you’ve succeeded in explaining the world to me. 😉

  • M3

    “- Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.

    – Ha-ha! Totally.”

    Ha Ha indeed. What’s the moral of the story here?

    That this won’t work on Beta’s because they’re ‘smart’ hence they’ll be too smart to fall for such tricks and sleep with them, so these poor girls only have stupid jocks to choose from in order to trick them with parlor tricks like dancing and kissing in order to get them to sleep with them?

    Goddamn oversmart beta’s, it’s their brains that prevent them from getting laid.

    This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.

  • pvw

    J: Thanks, pvw! That makes loads of sense. This is the second time you’ve succeeded in explaining the world to me.

    Me: You’re welcome.

  • Emily

    >> “This is what makes you hot? Good gawd.

    >I wouldn’t go that far. ”

    I would! I think it has a lot to do with the attraction spectrum of high-T “manlier”-looking men vs. lower-T “pretty boy” types. I definitely tend to be more attracted to the “pretty boy” side of the spectrum.

  • J

    There’s a very intense sexuality to that look. I think it’s the combination of large eyes, which implies emotional intensity, and the prominent bone structure, which is very masculine. He looks tough as nails in some ways, but like he would be very passionate.

    He looks Byronic. A few months ago, a middle aged woman said to me that it was tragic that he is too young for her and too old for her daughter. I was floored.

    You’d better keep an eye on that son, and when he reaches a certain age, explain how men have no “choice.”

    I’ve already had that discussion with both boys, especially regarding abortion. Although I can tell you that if some girl tried give up a grandchild of mine for adoption, there’d be a landmark legal case. I really question that an unrelated, 40-something UMC couple would be a better custody choice than young bio-dad and loving grandparents.

  • J

    @Ted

    This was your Hell’s Angels period, I take it. Wow!

    Love the piercing stare. Is this a mug shot? 😉

  • J

    @pvw

    No, they were upset because on some level I got to them. They knew I was right.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “OMG, that pic makes you look like one of the 10 Most Wanted. No wonder people cut you a wide berth on the sidewalk! How old is that pic?”

    yep LOL. Remember I did the lead singer gig for an alternative metal band for awhile. I knew I didn’t have the face for the “glam rock” look, so instead I went full on scary monster. The pic is from the early 2000’s, and when I was gigging I didn’t have the full beard. Instead I had a goatie long enough to braid.

    I took that pic for my avatar on a guild board for a MMORPG I used to play. My ‘toon’ (character in game) was female, and I found it immensely amusing when people first saw it.

  • Ted D

    J – “This was your Hell’s Angels period, I take it. Wow!

    Love the piercing stare. Is this a mug shot? ”

    Oddly enough I was actually past my “rebellious” phase by this time in my life. The look was strictly for show. Many people in the metal scene simply did NOT take a band seriously unless they looked the part.

    I did intend it to look like a mug shot of sorts. And I had to retake it like 5 times to get that “piercing stare”. I’ll say it freaked people out a lot. It was even better when I was out with my band mates in a setting other than a club or bar. We were all scary looking.

  • J

    I remember a female UNC student on INTJforum complaining about that.

    An INTJ complained about that? Color me shocked.

  • Ted D

    Even more amusing, I was sporting that look WHILE working for a fortune 500 company as a shift supervisor on their help desk. Not too long after I cut my hair and cleaned up, I got a promotion.

    Imagine that!

  • The older I get, the more surprised I am by women’s sexual preferences when I discover them. The lean and hungry look has a lot more appeal than men usually think. Men tend to believe that women prefer a lot of musculature, but that isn’t necessarily the case.

    I have no doubt Nate could quit himself well in a fight with another man, but even if he came off on the losing end, I can’t see his woman going off with the winner. That puzzles men no end, and throws sticks into the spokes of the bicycles Roissy, Roosh, FFY and a few of the other hardcore Ev-Psych types are pedaling about the androsphere

    Believe it or not, I know women who would have made a bee-line for Ted in his SOA-looking days. I have heard my daughters’ friends gush over Jax, Tig, and Bobby. Jax I can understand. He’s written to soak panties. But Tig? Bobby???

    • Men tend to believe that women prefer a lot of musculature, but that isn’t necessarily the case.

      I have no doubt Nate could quit himself well in a fight with another man, but even if he came off on the losing end, I can’t see his woman going off with the winner.

      It is sooooo not the case with me. I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out. Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!

      I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy. I think his jutting hipbones would be sexy. But I’ve always liked the hipster look. I’m not alone – my guess is that skinny, brooding types, who are often called “bad boys” even when they are not, as in Nathan’s case – outperform PUA types by a mile.

  • Ted D

    MCB – “Believe it or not, I know women who would have made a bee-line for Ted in his SOA-looking days. ”

    It got me attention, but from women I was not interested in for obvious reasons. 😛

  • Ted D

    Susan – “but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday”

    Did I mention I’m doing a Couch to 5K program? 😉

    I’ll never have one of those “runners” bodies. even at my best around 212lbs, I was a stocky dude. I’ve got solid Polish/Austrian bone structure so I suspect even my skeleton would look bulky! In fact if you put me in a WWII German uniform I’d look perfectly normal. Hey, sounds like a good haloween idea…

  • asdf

    Susan,

    The girls here are talking about any football player, not any man. What you mean is “any man deemed attractive by women doesn’t have to try.” Since men who aren’t attractive become invisible this becomes “any man.”

  • @Emily

    Thanks for linking to Haley’s Halo – I haven’t been there in a while. She has the greatest illustrations, she’s awesome at that! Very funny.

  • @asdf

    I know, I was just quoting Harden. I was a bit surprised that he perceived it is generally easy for men to hook up at Yale.

  • Emily

    >> “’ll never have one of those “runners” bodies. even at my best around 212lbs, I was a stocky dude. I’ve got solid Polish/Austrian bone structure so I suspect even my skeleton would look bulky”

    I have a couple close friends who tend to prefer the “bulky” look. It was always funny when we’d talk about guys because they were very much NOT into the Nathan Harden type. One of my friends once joked that “Emily likes her men to look as much like women as possible.” >:(

    I didn’t deliberately pick my friends this way, but it was really convenient since we never wound up competing over guys. 🙂

  • @Ted

    Well, different strokes, haha. I’m not a believer in anyone being universally attractive. I know several tall women that want a man to be not only tall, but also big. I think they like feeling dwarfed by a male.

    Also, I recall back in the day before I got together with my husband, a classmate told me that she thought he was really sexy, but that she would never have sex with someone whose hips were narrower than her own. Obviously, I had no such qualms…

  • Ted D

    Susan – it’s all good. No one can be attractive to everyone. But I have on more than one occasion said something similar to my boys that Emily’s friends told her: that I swear most young women want a girlfriend with a penis instead of a man. Both my boys are sporting that emo look, and it drives me nuts that when I talk to them I can barely see one eye. (how does covering half of your face make you attractive?)

  • M3

    “More pics of Nathan Harden:”

    I can see it now. If he cut his hair short, he’d be a total Chris Noth.

    • I can see it now. If he cut his hair short, he’d be a total Chris Noth.

      No way, Chris Noth is the opposite of a skinny emo. I’ll grant you they both have dark, heavy eyebrows.

  • Escoffier

    I don’t think I could be attracted to a woman whose hips were narrower than mine.

    WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips! Is the man supposed to be a truck to compensate?

    • WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips! Is the man supposed to be a truck to compensate?

      This cracked me up. She is a very tall woman – I think she is one of those who doesn’t want to worry that she’ll squash a guy like a bug in bed, lol.

  • Ted D

    “WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips!”

    Of course! what else would you have to grab onto while you’re… uh… Maybe this comment belongs in the “sex” thread.

  • M3

    Ted D
    “Both my boys are sporting that emo look, and it drives me nuts that when I talk to them I can barely see one eye. (how does covering half of your face make you attractive?)”

    Because it’s like… sooooo mysterious… gawd.

    Perhaps it’s why both out pics contain us wearing sunglasses.. we’re taking mysterious to a level over 9000.

    • @M3

      I’ve always assumed that is not you in the pic. I have a hard time squaring it with your commentary over the months.

  • M3

    Ted D
    “Of course! what else would you have to grab onto while you’re… uh… Maybe this comment belongs in the “sex” thread.”

    Why the sex thread?

    …what else would you have to grab onto while you’re picking her up and moving her out of your line of sight to the tv while she’s yelling at you to stop playing xbox and listen to her talk about how so and so pissed her off at work today and how her boss was a total dick and how the chick in the mailroom has something against her…

    • Oh, M3, don’t start with the whining about women. Please.

  • Southamerican

    I’ve been reading this website and very much appreciate and agree with most of your viewpoints, Susan. The state of sexual relations in the US is deplorable – the normalization of sex acts once deemed deviant and unmentionable in polite society. The only thing that disappoints me is the wholesale condemnation of feminism as the fount for this crumbling morality. Feminism is actually the advocacy of human rights for half the world’s population that has been under institutional bondage for centuries.

    To be as concrete as possible, if a woman steadfastly does not identify herself as a feminist, she should then avoid the taint of hypocrisy by doing the following:

    1. Do not vote at all. — It would be hypocritical to enjoy the fruits of the Suffrage Movement (helmed by feminists) while bashing their contributions.

    2. Do not attend a co-ed university. — Universities were forced to desegregate by gender in the 1970s as a result of affirmative action. In fact, women are the one who have most benefited from affirmative action.

    Side note: As a last ditch effort to stop the Civil Rights Act of 1964 from passing, Republicans insisted on including sex in addition to race, ethnicity and religion for protection from discrimination — because it seemed so ludicrous to include the protection of women’s rights that the act would surely fail. What a surprise when it did pass – and what a windfall for women!

    3. Do not attend any graduate school. — Again women for centuries were barred from institutions of higher learning. Only feminists argued that women were in fact biologically more than capable of becoming doctors, lawyers, scientists…

    4. Do not work outside the home after marrying and having children. — Historical opponents of feminism credit the decline of civilization to the outsourcing of childrearing and housekeeping by working women. Therefore, to do otherwise would be to become a feminist or hypocritically enjoy the fruits of the struggle of feminists.

    5. If you are single, must work and are sexually harassed by a boss or co-workers, do not think you can avail yourself of any protection against sexual harassment. — Again validation of this workplace danger was hard-won by feminists so it would be hypocritical for an anti-feminist woman to seek protection and redress.

    6. Do not use contraception. — Again feminists were the ones, often social workers who at much personal risk to themselves, advocated the use of contraception because of the high rate of maternal death in childbirth in the past, especially in the slums.

    7. Do not purchase any property or accept any inheritance. — Again women did not always have rights to property and inheritance. Think Jane Austen’s time? The reason why Jane Austen wrote so much about courtship and marriage was because that was the only viable alternative to poverty that single women had at the time.

    • @Southamerican

      Eh, I take your point, though I think you’re missing the real issue – the feminist movement is so fractured and fragmented that it is simply impossible to make a broad statement that one agrees or disagrees with feminism. I am on record as being a gender equity feminist, which I believe gives me the right to avail myself of all those nice little bennies. (Re the Pill, feminists do not get credit for that. It was that + the Women’s Movement that brought us the Sexual Revolution.)

      I believe that the goals of gender equity were achieved long ago, and what is called feminism today is actually a female supremacy movement. Books like “The End of Men” which celebrate the diminishing achievements of males, are detrimental to a healthy society, in my view.

      Specifically, I reject any and all aspects of Sex-Positive feminism, so popular on college campuses today, and the branch of feminism Nathan Harden is arguing against.

  • Ramble

    Well, a lot of problems are caused because no one actually tells you anything about life because the focus is entirely on academic achievement, not on actual life skills or anything that doesn’t involve going to college.

    +1

    I am always reminded of that scene in Knocked Up where Seth Rogen is asking for advice from his father, and then almost demanding it with, “Tell me what to do. Tell Me What To Do!” and his father says, “I don’t know.”.

    Life in the UMC is all about getting these pieces of paper from certain specific, “qualifying” institutions so that they can get hired by the “right” companies or intern at “prestigious” firms.

  • Escoffier

    Leaving aside the myriad logical :facepalms: in the above, the little “factoid” about the Civil Rights act is false.

  • Ramble

    Btw this is a bit off-topic, but here’s some useful Girl Game stuff from Haley’s Halo. I stand by my pro-makeup stance! 😉 :
    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/what-women-mean-by-makeup-vs-what-men-mean-by-makeup/

    Did you notice the second comment there:

    I don’t wear any, that’s not to say I don’t need to, I just don’t see the point. Once you’re in a realationship, your man will see you makeup-free, blemishes and all. What I’m trying to say is, wear makeup if it makes you feel good

    Perfect.

    • @Ramble

      Did you notice the second comment there:

      I don’t wear any, that’s not to say I don’t need to, I just don’t see the point. Once you’re in a realationship, your man will see you makeup-free, blemishes and all. What I’m trying to say is, wear makeup if it makes you feel good

      Perfect.

      I must admit, that does prove your point perfectly.

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    “Don’t laugh! (OK laugh all you want LOL)”

    Lol, you looked like you killed people in your spare time.

  • Emily

    >> “To be as concrete as possible, if a woman steadfastly does not identify herself as a feminist, she should then avoid the taint of hypocrisy by doing the following…”

    *brings out 10 foot pole*

    I’m grateful for the achievements of early feminists, but I think North American feminism has overstayed its welcome. At this point, they’re doing more harm than good to both men AND women.

    I’m still very supportive of the feminist initiatives in the parts of the world where women actually *are* oppressed (ie. in the Middle East) but if anything, reading about those causes makes me realize how petty/whiny the North American feminist issues are.

    • I’m still very supportive of the feminist initiatives in the parts of the world where women actually *are* oppressed (ie. in the Middle East) but if anything, reading about those causes makes me realize how petty/whiny the North American feminist issues are.

      Oh, this is a pet peeve of mine. American feminists refuse to condemn female genital mutilation because “we should respect other cultures.” Stoning for adultery, anyone? What hypocrisy.

  • Lokland

    @Southamerican

    How Sith Lord of you.

    If your not with us you must be against us.

  • Escoffier

    Emily, don’t even bother. If you want, and if I can muster the interest, I can take that post apart point by point. There is almost nothing true in it. Just move on.

  • Ramble

    I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out.

    Yes, this is right.

    Guys wanted to look like Ah-nold for their own purposes. They “juice” for their own purposes.

    When girls go on and on about pixie haircuts, or bobs, or whatever, it is mostly for their own purposes, which is not a bad thing. But, the idea that, “Ugh, I do all of this FOR YOU” (complaining to her boyfriend about makeup, and hair, and clothes) is usually laughable.

  • Ramble

    I know several tall women that want a man to be not only tall, but also big. I think they like feeling dwarfed by a male.

    Most girls want to feel feminine at some point. Very tall girls don’t always have many options to feel that.

    I knew one girl in college who was 6’1 and she was always hanging around the basketball team. I don’t know if she ever got “passed around”, but, it was somewhat obvious that she was looking to plant in fertile ground.

    • she was always hanging around the basketball team. I don’t know if she ever got “passed around”

      Now I’m picturing players passing the woman around the court.

  • Ramble

    I swear most young women want a girlfriend with a penis instead of a man.

    A hobby horse of mine is that many guys are looking to date guys with tits.

  • I think Harden looks like some kind of necromancer.

    Re: women hooking up and having nothing to show for it afterward…the alpha females on campus would probably scold women for being so “transactional” about sex, and accuse them of being “whores.”

    From my limited understanding of changing campus social mores: having sex primarily for recreational or conquer-the-world purposes is essentially ok, and a woman who does so may be called “The Maneater” or “Samantha” or given some other sobriquet that similarly implies ferocity, power, liberation, strength, danger, cold-bloodedness, etc. If she has sex as part of a deal to secure a relationship with an eligible man, however, she is guilty of all manner of crimes. Someone who just abstains completely must be “repressed” or “neurotic” or “provincial.”

    The intention really does seem to be to establish that gender-related sexuality differences are just a social construct, and to “prove it” by linking N and self-esteem in a way that was usually associated with fraternities and male jocks. Stories abound that glorify turnabout female pump & dump scenarios in which a man wants a relationship and the woman wants to keep it strictly sexual.

    The idea that men (well, at least *some* men) may be the chief beneficiaries of this experiment is taboo.

    • @BB

      I think Harden looks like some kind of necromancer.

      LOL, you are right! He looks like a young Snape!

      From my limited understanding of changing campus social mores: having sex primarily for recreational or conquer-the-world purposes is essentially ok, and a woman who does so may be called “The Maneater” or “Samantha” or given some other sobriquet that similarly implies ferocity, power, liberation, strength, danger, cold-bloodedness, etc. If she has sex as part of a deal to secure a relationship with an eligible man, however, she is guilty of all manner of crimes. Someone who just abstains completely must be “repressed” or “neurotic” or “provincial.”

      Brilliant summary of the script.

      The idea that men (well, at least *some* men) may be the chief beneficiaries of this experiment is taboo.

      Yes, well that would be quite embarrassing and a major Fail. With all the negative publicity about hookup culture, I’ve been seeing some articles by feminists who say, “The beauty of hookup culture is that it’s there if you want it!” As if it’s some emergency store rather than a living culture that shapes incentives and behavior.

  • Southamerican

    Emily,
    I would argue that the reason why there is so much sexual immorality (casual sex, threesomes, S&M, etc) that is now mainstream among North American/European youth is not because of the embrace of feminism per se but rather the disavowal of godliness.

    I know that Christianity is the much maligned religion du jour. I anticipate attacks from intellectual (and not so intellectual) atheists and agnostics. Just as they have a right to express themselves, so do I.

    The way I see it is this: Sexual promiscuity entered the scene when respect for God went out. I consider myself a feminist and am very grateful for the gift of freedom that I have as a woman in 2012.

    The reason why First World feminism’s concerns may sound trivial in comparison to the travails of Third World women is precisely because of the victories won by feminists in these countries and the current subjugation of women in the others where any ounce of feminism is swiftly and brutally suppressed.

    Does that mean that I subscribe to what may be now popularly identified as the feminist agenda? No, not at all, when it conflicts with my religious beliefs. In other words, abortion as a form of birth control – No! Sex outside of marriage – No! That’s what the Bible calls fornication. It does not mean that God does not want us to have fun. He loves us so much that He made sex a pleasurable act. But it’s also dangerous to engage in outside of the covenant of marriage. Sex is not a sin – sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is a sin. Why? Because God made us and loves us so much that He wants the best for us. The best is to keep sex within marriage.

    If you think orgies, threesomes, etc are a modern development of sexual liberation, NO WAY! Many ancient cultures embraced these sexual practices. It was the Jews and Christians who were the square ones because God forbid sex outside marriage. If you think “saving yourself” is old-fashioned, think again – it was counter-cultural in ancient times. Today many people say that people are born homosexuals — Not in Ancient Greece! Socrates, Plato and other ancient philosophers observed that the highest form of love was between two men because they were intellectual equals. All men in ancient Greece were expected to have wives but also engage in homosexual acts – that was their norm! So the Jews and Christians were seen as very counter-cultural and NOT normal.

    Bottom-line: I am saving myself for marriage because I trust God’s guidelines for life. By the way, He also tells men to save themselves for marriage as well– especially in the New Testament! The reason why male promiscuity is not equally as condemned by society is because of patriarchal bias, NOT because of what God says.

    • @Southamerican

      FIRST REASON I HATE FEMINISM:

      I would argue that the reason why there is so much sexual immorality (casual sex, threesomes, S&M, etc) that is now mainstream among North American/European youth is not because of the embrace of feminism per se but rather the disavowal of godliness

      Sex-positive feminists proselytize casual sex and hookup culture. If you’re against casual sex, you have to be against sex pozzies, who are the face of contemporary, “4th wave” feminism.

      Hannah Rosin:

      “To put it crudely, feminist progress right now largely depends on the existence of the hookup culture.”

      SECOND REASON I HATE FEMINISM:

      The reason why First World feminism’s concerns may sound trivial in comparison to the travails of Third World women is precisely because of the victories won by feminists in these countries and the current subjugation of women in the others where any ounce of feminism is swiftly and brutally suppressed.

      And yet American feminists excuse and ignore those atrocities:

      “One might have asked whether he would also refrain from condemning honor killings and female genital mutilation, but I think we know the answer.

      If one had expected a radical feminist to offer a full throated condemnation of these barbaric practices, practices that are especially designed to terrorize women, one would have been disappointed.

      In reality, Joan Scott was wallowing in the slime of her own moral relativism, to say nothing of her guilt at being a citizen of the United States.

      Who was she, a citizen of a monstrous country like the United States, to criticize anyone else’s cultural practices? In Scott’s view, someone who lives in a country that still, in some places, restricts access to abortion, Americans have no right to condemn anyone else’s customs or mores.

      As a Western woman, she cannot grant herself the authority to pass judgment on anyone outside of the West. And besides, she believes that the whole controversy over stoning– and maybe also over honor killings and female genital mutilation– has been stirred up to silence public debate about the high levels of Muslim unemployment in Europe.

      Given the moral deficiencies of the West, she was persuaded that a ban on stoning adulteresses cannot and should not be imposed by the West. Different strokes for different folks… as the old saying goes.. and to Scott that means that we do not even have the right to speak out against these practices.”

      The Moral Depravity of Radical Feminists

      THIRD AND LARGEST REASON I HATE FEMINISM:

      The cavalier dismissal of male well-being, the promotion of female achievement at the expense of males, and the hypocrisy around equality when supremacy is clearly the goal.

      Since you have major beefs with me – my approval of premarital sex, and disapproval of contemporary feminism, I’m surprised you like the blog. In any case, I am sure we will not change one another’s minds.

  • Sai

    I wonder what they’d do if one of those guys was to sue for taking advantage of him while he was intoxicated.

    “This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.”
    Best comment yet~

  • Southamerican

    Susan,
    Thank you for clarifying that distinction in terms of being a gender equity feminist. I did not get that from the posts that I read because it seems that you universally dismissed feminism. It’s bad enough when men bitterly spout off about feminist women, but when women do it, it’s like a divided house that will fall.

    I respectfully disagree with your assessment that gender equity has been achieved in the U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control is not; 6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months — again, Viagra coverage as an illustrative example); gender parity in pay – from what I read, newspaper ads in the past used to advertise for men only and women only for the same job but very different pay; women who choose to become housewives not earning Social Security benefits because their collective responsibilities as childcare giver, cook, maid and chauffeur are not monetarily valued or compensated by current legislation; limited funding support for women who take care of their ailing parents (since oftentimes women overwhelmingly are tasked with this job among siblings).

    It’s one thing to be cognizant of the failings of feminism, but to decry the term so liberally is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Worse: It sets a poor example for young women to distance themselves from the word in order to curry favor with men. It’s kind of like a self-hatred.

    I am pleased to call myself a feminist and a Christian, citing the areas that I may disagree with but always honoring both.

    • Worse: It sets a poor example for young women to distance themselves from the word in order to curry favor with men. It’s kind of like a self-hatred.

      Women distance themselves from the word because they do not identify with or relate to many of the goals of feminism, and generally find feminists to be unpleasant, strident people. In polls, only a quarter of women consider themselves feminists.

  • Old expression based on an older expression: “You can lead a girl to Vassar but you can’t make her think.”

  • Ramble

    I must admit, that does prove your point perfectly.

    Don’t feed the trolls. You were doing better when you told me to shut up, already.

  • Southamerican

    Also, Susan, the reason why I chose to comment on your post is because I generally agree with your encouragement of young women to value themselves and devalue popular culture’s message about sex. I support your website’s mission because I keep agreeing with much of your advice (with exception of sex outside marriage).

    I know that not everyone is a Christian and not all Christians support abstinence. I respect everyone’s journey – what I like about your advice is that you engage young women in thinking for themselves about the consequences of all this “free love” nonsense that the media is peddling and inviting men to contribute their thoughts.

    It’s very powerful for me to read when men wholeheartedly agree that they respect modesty and sexual restraint in women. Somehow, on some primal level I guess, it makes it more real for me – it’s like a brother or father giving your advice their stamp of approval. So for that, great job!

    I just wanted to point out that it’s equally important to value the contribution of past and present feminists who are actively working to ensure the protection and promotion of women’s rights – because in effect when women do well, families and society do well. That’s why international microfinance loan programs focus on women because mothers are more likely to use their earnings to help pull their family ahead.

    The fact that I admire the strength and sacrifices of women does not in any way diminish my admiration of men. I do not equate feminism with man-hating at all – in fact, men who angrily put down feminism raise a red flag for me. Any man raised by a hardworking and loving single mother would know differently.

    • because in effect when women do well, families and society do well.

      That is simply not true. College enrollment is 60% female. Women are no happier today than they were before the Women’s Movement. In cities, 20-something women earn 117% of what their male peers earn. In a recent survey by Forbes, 84% of mothers said they would like to stay home full time if they could afford it.

  • Cooper

    ” it seems that you universally dismissed feminism. It’s bad enough when men bitterly spout off about feminist women, but when women do it, it’s like a divided house that will fall.”

    Lol, cause men aren’t ‘in the house’?

  • Ion

    SouthAmerican

    “Again women did not always have rights to property and inheritance. ”

    Reads like “at one point, women weren’t entitled to diamonds, Kleinfield Bridal, and riding ponys” as far as I’m concerned. Many of us didn’t have grandparents who could afford inheritance, or property to pass on, many people still don’t.

    Susan

    “Oh, this is a pet peeve of mine. American feminists refuse to condemn female genital mutilation because “we should respect other cultures.” Stoning for adultery, anyone? What hypocrisy.”

    Totally agree. They also take a pro-crime stance, and refuse to convict men in high crime areas for any atrocities against poor women and children (children are usually props to incur sympathy about any issue they see fit to embrace, but “safety of children” is never thought of in this situation).

    I.e. they are often out there petitioning that criminals be released early, and they are anti-cop. So it’s really only middle class american males they want to emasculate/hold “accountable” for behavior of men past and present. Not really men in general.

  • Ion

    personally:

    Chris Noth = masculine, high testosterone, super attractive.

    Emo = “Twink”.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Wow, that guy is attractive? I really can’t avoid laughing whenever I see his face.

    “God…I’m just…so deep…the pain…the first world is so tough…ugh, see my scars!”

    I don’t mean to diss the guy too much. He’s smarter than me. But damn, I hate that picture.

  • Mike M.

    Susan, you make one error. These are Yale students. Majoring in Snobbery and Networking. Not the best, not the brightest. Merely well-connected.

  • Dinkney Pawson

    @Mike M.

    These girls also come from we’ll-to-do families.

    Radical Chic anyone?

  • M3

    Susan

    “I’ve always assumed that is not you in the pic. I have a hard time squaring it with your commentary over the months.”
    > How so?

    “Oh, M3, don’t start with the whining about women. Please.”
    > hehe… sorry. I wasn’t complaining about women *in general*. I was describing what actually happened between me and my ex on several occasions.

    She worked for an insurance company, in HR, with 2 other female HR staff, and reported to a female boss. I’m sure you can imagine just how awesome the little backstabbing intersexual competing climb over each others rotting corpse get to the top shenannagins made her the cheery person that would meet me at home after an hours commute 🙂

  • Kids attending “elite” schools are probably more likely to be accepting of social memes being pushed by the “progressive” intelligentsia than kids attending not-so-elite schools.

  • SA: “The reason why male promiscuity is not equally as condemned by society is because of patriarchal bias, NOT because of what God says.”

    Patriarchal bias? Try: biological demand for eggs vs sperm. It’s hard for men to get laid, compared to women. That’s why it’s not condemned equally outside of religious contexts.

    Your ideas of gender equity, meaning someone else better pay for your stuff, is bit naïve. Equity means you get not special dispensation for free stuff based on your sex any more than men do.

    Equity really means nobody’s going to give you a hand, just like men have to cut it on their own or die.

  • Lokland

    @Southamerican

    “U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control”

    Why would you compare Viagra and BC?
    Beyond involving sexual function they are taken for vastly different reasons.
    PS Not saying BC= slut.

    “6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months”

    I think if women ruled the world we’d all be forced to ride ponies to work.

    You built a straw man from an argument no one has given and then proceeded to destroy your own straw man.

    Hypotheticals on what one group would do are actually illegal and discriminatory even with evidence backing them up.

    Ex. Black guy walks into a TV store with no one there. He’d probably steal the TV.

    ………………

    Waste of my time.

  • A definite beta guy

    Viagra is NOT covered for sexual reasons.

  • Mike C

    The next morning I awoke to find myself sprawled out on one of the couches in the living room. Several of the girls who lived in the flat were sitting around talking…they had been out the night before and their conversation, naturally, turned to talk about boys. They started talking about the hookup scene back at Yale. Their conversation went something like this:

    – Oh my gosh. Have you ever been with a football player?

    – Yeah, they can be pretty awesome. They work out a lot.

    – Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.

    – Ha-ha! Totally.

    LOL…you couldn’t make this stuff up. This is both solipsism and projection on full display.

    • This is both solipsism and projection on full display.

      Agreed – I knew the guys would enjoy this one. 🙂

  • Mike C

    I agree! I think that feminism has exacerbated this female tendency, which is at least a little ironic.

    It may amuse you to know that due to my heightened awareness of solipsism, I identify it in myself and in others (usually but not always women) at least a dozen times per day.

    Susan, I about fell off my chair reading this recalling how strongly you protested when I first brought this up in a comment. Looks like you were persuaded on this one. 🙂

    I’ll note it was my comment here that started that entire discussion across several blogs.

    • Susan, I about fell off my chair reading this recalling how strongly you protested when I first brought this up in a comment. Looks like you were persuaded on this one.

      I’ll note it was my comment here that started that entire discussion across several blogs.

      Were you surprised? I wrote a post where I said outright that I cop to female solipsism. It was a very interesting discussion, thanks for starting it.

      I will make one observation, FWIW – there are times when I realize a person is engaging in solipsism while at the same time finding their communication highly effective. Perhaps because I am female, I find that I understand abstract concepts better when they’re put into the context of an example, and it’s natural for people to draw examples from their own experience.

  • Mike C

    Many of the most negative posters, here and in the ‘sphere, have entire complicated and detailed worldviews that extrapolate nearly entirely from their own bad personal experiences. They tend to state opinions as fact and not use the word “I” much, but it’s still solipsism.

    No, J, you continue to confuse what solipsism is and is not. What you are describing is overgeneralizing. That is an error as well but it isn’t solipsism. Read the excerpt again of the girls talking. They are literally projecting how they perceive things onto the men. They literally cannot conceive that men interpret differently

    “If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.”

    They literally cannot conceive that men don’t view the situation like (“being played”).

    I know you are smart so you should get the difference between solipsism and overgeneralizing.

  • Mike C

    I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out.

    This is part of it no doubt. There is the male competitive instinct, plus there is an immediate intimidation factor at work.

    Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!

    I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy.

    I think you are. I think overall womens’ preferences in body types vary MUCH MORE than men. Men like different types with some preferring a bit thicker or some more waifish, but I don’t think you see the range of preferences women show. Any guy who has built up his musculature considerably knows that many women ***really*** like it.

    This is Arnold in in Mr. Olympia days:

    http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&noj=1&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=B5JkctFMEBKjvM:&imgrefurl=http://www.popstarsplus.com/politicians_arnoldschwarzenegger.htm&docid=fl5GukAlt8vOCM&imgurl=http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/ArnoldSchwarzeneggerPicture.jpg&w=600&h=813&ei=dg6KUMu6F-fWyQG7noHgAQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=308&sig=106077039016368313723&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=101&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:15,s:0,i:183&tx=59&ty=79&biw=1400&bih=710

    He got more ass then a toilet seat in the late 70s.

    This guy is on the cover of a bunch of romance novels and money talks:

    http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTg0NDQ4Nzk0NF5BMl5BanBnXkFyZXN1bWU@._V1._SY314_CR7,0,214,314_.jpg

    Interestingly, Mike O Hearn I think might fit that bill of high T and developed musculature, and some aspects of a masculine face mixed with some more feminine features.

    What I haven’t been able to deduce is what separates the women how prefer more of the skinny look from a more developed build. I would have thought it was linked to certain traits but Sassy’s physical preferences have steered me away from that hypothesis. I think restricted versus unrestricted might play some role in it.

    In any case, the positive takeaway for guys is you really should know someone out there will appreciate “your look” unless maybe you are a 5’4″ fat guy with an acne face. But short versus tall, thin versus built, different facial structures, I think it can vary.

  • SayWhaat

    @ Emily:

    I have a couple close friends who tend to prefer the “bulky” look. It was always funny when we’d talk about guys because they were very much NOT into the Nathan Harden type. One of my friends once joked that “Emily likes her men to look as much like women as possible.” >:(

    HAHA, I’ve heard that same exact joke from my friends! Haters. 😛

    At first I was startled by Harden’s pic. Then I stared at it longer. Then I blushed.

  • chris

    The next morning I awoke to find myself sprawled out on one of the couches in the living room. Several of the girls who lived in the flat were sitting around talking…they had been out the night before and their conversation, naturally, turned to talk about boys. They started talking about the hookup scene back at Yale. Their conversation went something like this:

    – Oh my gosh. Have you ever been with a football player?

    – Yeah, they can be pretty awesome. They work out a lot.

    – Yeah, and you know what’s best about them. They’re not that smart. If you go up to them at a party and just get them drinking, and start dancing with them and kissing them, they will totally end up sleeping with you. They don’t even know they’re being played. They have no clue.

    Wow, I’m sure loads of guys would love to work their assess off to become husband material for those women.

  • Mike C

    WFT? Women are supposed to have wide hips! Is the man supposed to be a truck to compensate?

    Escoffier,

    You are mixing up a ratio with absolute numbers. Women have “wide” hips in relation to their waist. What is the classic hourglass figure? 24″ waist with 36″ hips. Guys are blocky (no curves) so the waist and hips will basically be the same.

  • Mike C

    I respectfully disagree with your assessment that gender equity has been achieved in the U.S. Cases in point: Viagra is covered by insurance companies while birth control is not; 6 weeks of maternity leave (if men had to endure childbirth, I bet they’d successfully lobby for 6 months

    6 weeks is incorrect.

    http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/

    Eligible employees are entitled to:

    Twelve workweeks of leave in a 12-month period for:
    the birth of a child and to care for the newborn child within one year of birth;

    I wouldn’t be shocked if there were other factual inaccuracies in that list as well.

    • I wouldn’t be shocked if there were other factual inaccuracies in that list as well.

      I decided not to waste the time chasing the facts down, and chose to argue with her on a few key points instead. Her comments amount to trolling.

  • chris

    Wow, I’m sure loads of guys would love to work their assess off to become husband material for those women.

    I mean, why bust your ass studying at University for 3-6 years (depending on degree) and then spending the next 5-10 years building your career, so that you can mate with 30 years old plus women who have already been fucked by bunches of other dudes, when you can spend 1 year in the gym in your early twenties and get to mate with young, unused girls in their prime?

    The first strategy requires shitloads of effort and restraint for a shitty reward while the latter strategy requires fuck all effort for a fucking awesome reward.

    These women are creating an incentive structure that ensures there will be no good men around to marry when they’re older.

  • chris

    from above

    and this isn’t even taking into consideration that with the first strategy, the mating isn’t even long-term, it’s until the woman wants cash and prizes.

  • Emily

    Interestingly enough, I rarely (if ever) get approached by visibly high-T/”bigger” men, so I think that there’s some sort of mutual disinterest/LJBF happening there.

    • Interestingly enough, I rarely (if ever) get approached by visibly high-T/”bigger” men, so I think that there’s some sort of mutual disinterest/LJBF happening there.

      I think Mike C had it right – no doubt it’s related to sociosexuality. Nathan Harden is as restricted as they come, so I probably read and like that in his face. (Remember, studies show women can read this from the face alone, probably by looking for testosterone markers.) I think Arnold S. was always absolutely gross.

      It makes sense that unrestricteds seek each other out, and it explains why it can be true that 80% of women on campus are not attracted to the douchey lax player.

  • I’m really tired of us as a society always going to extremes.

    Yeah that is one of the key traits of this culture that baffles me you whether love or hate there is no moderation or middle ground. My guess is that is a left over from being a warrior nation. You don’t have an identity without an enemy, YMMV.

    But truthfully I’ve always believed the truth is somewhere in the middle, and we just keep smacking the ball from one end of the court to the other.

    This is one of the reasons that I mention often how a male dominated culture works. Many of the comments on the manosphere claim that men are more noble and that things would be better with men having the total control…not really no. We need to correct feminists mistakes without forgetting the good points and try to create a new society in which both genders can have rights and responsibilities according to their abilities. Patriarchy run amok is as bad as feminazism, YMMV.

    I didn’t deliberately pick my friends this way, but it was really convenient since we never wound up competing over guys.

    Likewise we were similar in college but we all found our partners/crushes completely unattractive no female sexual competition keeps the herd together.

    “This hamster run on the power of the Tesseract.”
    Best comment yet~

    Comment of the week for sure.

    Emily, don’t even bother. If you want, and if I can muster the interest, I can take that post apart point by point. There is almost nothing true in it. Just move on.

    I think there is a couple of blogs that had debunked all this lies maybe a link to it would work best. Let her be someone else’s problem.

  • VD

    It is sooooo not the case with me. I think men get muscled for one another, kind of the way women dress up for one another when they go out. Women like a fit body, but I will take a runner over a bodybuilder anyday. And I am grossed out by male pecs that are like boobs – something Jason was talking about recently. Blech!

    Solipsism alert! First, straight men most certainly do not get muscled for one another. That is pure female projection, Susan. We get muscled because it feels good to be powerful and it feels great to have women constantly feeling your pecs, your biceps and your triceps. There is simply no comparison. I have a naturally delicate build, but put on nearly 50 pounds through hitting the weights over the years. So I have observed that women, on the average, react much more strongly and much more positively to men with well-developed musculatures. Furthermore, it tends to be the hottest, fittest women who prefer the hardest men. Think about it. Who is going to pound you harder and throw you around the bed more easily, limp-wristed emo boy or Ripped Dude.

    Now, I had no problem attracting girls when I was rail-thin. I’m a writer and I could probably brood for England. But back then, I never had pretty women looking up and down and saying “yum” in the street either. Do some guys overdo the weight training? Sure. But there is a huge gap between a scrawny runner and a waddling musclehead who looks like a stuffed sausage in a suit. Think Daniel Craig as James Bond on the beach, not Arnold as Mr. Universe posing on stage. Craig has a fair amount of muscle on him.

    I may be an extreme case – for example, I think Nathan Harden’s skinny arm on the CD cover is sexy. I think his jutting hipbones would be sexy. But I’ve always liked the hipster look. I’m not alone – my guess is that skinny, brooding types, who are often called “bad boys” even when they are not, as in Nathan’s case – outperform PUA types by a mile.

    No chance. The PUAs clean up primarily because they are more focused on pursuit. By the time a skinny brooding hipster has emo’d his way into a girl’s bedroom, the PUA will have plowed his way through six or seven women already. It takes time to pose and simper and be noticed. It is fascinating that you mention how you find skinny arms to be sexy. I’ve heard women, including my wife, talk about how “spaghetti arms” and “sunken chests” make them want to vomit.

    Although speaking of PUAs, there was an episode of Castle that was right out of The Game. The best part was when the hot female detective, upon realizing to her horror how many moderately attractive women had been successfully seduced by a dead PUA, shook her head and said: “I weep for my gender.” Okay, zero points for proper use of the English language, but hilarious anyway.

    Interestingly enough, I rarely (if ever) get approached by visibly high-T/”bigger” men, so I think that there’s some sort of mutual disinterest/LJBF happening there.

    This is a cogent observation. I have noticed that adult women who prefer the hipster men are either still attracted to the same type of juvenile men that first attracted them in their early teens, or tend to fall in the 5-6 SMV category. My hypothesis is that the human mind has an unconscious means of limiting its attraction triggers to the members of the opposite sex within an attainable SMV range. It was always astounding to me when a relatively plain woman would confess that she found one of my average male friends to be hot while genuinely exhibiting no interest whatsoever in any of my much better-looking friends. It’s a very healthy and positive spin on the sour grapes fable.

    • @VD

      By the time a skinny brooding hipster has emo’d his way into a girl’s bedroom, the PUA will have plowed his way through six or seven women already.

      Ah, we were using different metrics for “outperform.” The emo guy is usually, well, um, emo. He does the monogamy “all in” thing, even if he does it serially. He’s good in bed because his EQ is sky high.

      The guys like this I’ve known in real life elicit offers outright on a regular basis. No pursuit is generally required.

      To each his own, I don’t care who other women are attracted to!

  • Sai

    @VD
    “My hypothesis is that the human mind has an unconscious means of limiting its attraction triggers to the members of the opposite sex within an attainable SMV range. It was always astounding to me when a relatively plain woman would confess that she found one of my average male friends to be hot while genuinely exhibiting no interest whatsoever in any of my much better-looking friends.”
    I like this hypothesis. What could this mean for the brains of, say, 4s who chase 9s? Well, besides the promiscuity being hard-wired thing.

    (The more I look at Mr. H up there the more I think of Metalocalypse.)

    • “My hypothesis is that the human mind has an unconscious means of limiting its attraction triggers to the members of the opposite sex within an attainable SMV range. It was always astounding to me when a relatively plain woman would confess that she found one of my average male friends to be hot while genuinely exhibiting no interest whatsoever in any of my much better-looking friends.”

      How does this square with hypergamy?

  • pvw

    @BB: From my limited understanding of changing campus social mores: having sex primarily for recreational or conquer-the-world purposes is essentially ok…If she has sex as part of a deal to secure a relationship with an eligible man, however, she is guilty of all manner of crimes. Someone who just abstains completely must be “repressed” or “neurotic” or “provincial.” The intention really does seem to be to establish that gender-related sexuality differences are just a social construct, and to “prove it” by linking N and self-esteem in a way that was usually associated with fraternities and male jocks.

    Me: That last sentence explains it exactly!

    They absolutely see sex from an alpha male point of view, and so they critique the more traditionalist minded women, those who abstain altogether from the hookup scene because they will only have relationship sex.

    It sounds so radical, I can’t help but be jarred by that type of critique coming from a woman.

    They rack up numbers like men, because they are so bent on being free from sexual restraint (like they perceive men to be), and so they can’t stand the traditionalist minded women who in their view might as well be members of some neo-Victorian religious conservative Taliban.

    I wonder, does their critique of relationship minded women sound today like the kind of thing a man might say, either good naturedly (he is not troubled by it) or with resentment, the expectation that many women have of sex leading to, or existing in the context of a relationship?

    I have this imagine in my mind of a man grumbling about some woman he has been sleeping with who now has expectations which he has no interest in and will not fulfill, ie., that they are dating or should be dating….

  • VD

    Like I said, big and scary.

    You look rather as if you’re still angry at the first billy goat Gruff.

    More pics of Nathan Harden

    I suspect he was more successful with women in his previous incarnation as Iggy Pop.

    We need to correct feminists mistakes without forgetting the good points and try to create a new society in which both genders can have rights and responsibilities according to their abilities.

    And to each according to their needs? Now, why does that sound so familiar….

    • I suspect he was more successful with women in his previous incarnation as Iggy Pop.

      Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.

  • I wonder if [some] women’s attraction to very slender men isn’t a desire to have slender daughters who don’t have to work at maintaining an optimum weight.

    Mesomorph’s daughters have to hit the gym a lot harder.

  • VD

    Given how much you like skinny arms, Susan, you should probably be sure to be alone when you watch this music video. Especially at the 2:28 mark. I daresay you’ll be overcome with raw desire.

    CARIBOU!

    • @VD

      More like Tyson Ritter of All American Rejects:

      tr

      Or Jared Leto:

      jl

      As I recall, the first time you ever linked to HUS was when I talked about Russell Brand being hot.

      The skinny emo boy appeals to a very, very sizable number of women.

  • Escoffier

    My comment was not made out of resentment, I honestly thought when I first looked at the pic that it was of an ugly, masculinized feminist intellectual circa 1975. It took a second for me to realize “Wait, that’s a dude.”

    As a lanky skinny boy myself, I should be basking in all this female praise of my body type.

  • VD

    Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.

    Resentment? Not in the slightest. Susan. We simply think you’re crazy, that’s all… but hey, you like what you like. I don’t think the guy looks anything like Jared Leto, who has very good features. Harden looks more like a transvestite or a drag queen.

    The skinny emo boy appeals to a very, very sizable number of women.

    That could be. Perhaps we’re just talking about two different pools of women here. But I can’t think of a single time in the last 10 years that I saw an attractive women walking through Milan, Zurich, or London with a skinny emo boy. It occurs to me that even Russell Brand, for all his genuine wit, fame, and skinny emo appeal, is usually seen with the likes of Katy Perry and low-rent glamor models, not the more beautiful girls.

    • @VD

      Resentment? Not in the slightest. Susan. We simply think you’re crazy, that’s all… but hey, you like what you like

      I assure you I am far from alone. In my experience, men don’t have a good handle at all on what women find attractive. They project too much, same as women.

      Russell Brand, for all his genuine wit, fame, and skinny emo appeal, is usually seen with the likes of Katy Perry and low-rent glamor models, not the more beautiful girls.

      Russell Brand has an exquisitely handsome face, his SMV is very, very high. I believe his number is over 2,000, so there are bound to be a few warpigs in there, but I believe he’s rarely if ever been turned down. He said that the moment he fell in love with Katy Perry was when she said no to sex. No one had ever done that to him before.

  • Ted D

    VD – “You look rather as if you’re still angry at the first billy goat Gruff.”

    ROFL. Nothing like almost showering my screen with coffee before 9:30am. 😉

    Like I said, I knew I couldn’t pull off the “pretty boy” look, so instead I went with old school Metallica. The beard came after I quit gigging, although I think it added nicely to the “holy shit that dude looks like he eats babies” schtick.

    While I’m at it I might as well go for a little shameless self promotion. This is one of the songs we recorded for our promo package. The loud mouth is mine.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/MP3s/Age%20of%20Dissent%20-%20Lies.mp3

    Susan – “Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.”

    I don’t know if I’d call it hate, but perhaps it is. Personally I’ve known so many guys that look just like him in music circles that I barely even notice just how emo he appears to be. I’ll be honest though, I’ve never really respected guys that look like they would break in half if the wind blew too hard. At least not until I get to know them and see what they are made of. My initial reaction to such scrawny guys is: I could fall on him and kill him!

    Also in relation to the track I posted above, I’ve had the previledge of hearing one of Yohami’s songs and I’ll admit I’m a little jealous. Not only does he have a great look, a good voice, and writing skills. The dude has an accent like Antonio Banderas! If he can’t clean up with the ladies, there isn’t much hope for most of us…

    • I’ll be honest though, I’ve never really respected guys that look like they would break in half if the wind blew too hard.

      Interesting that respect is a factor – perhaps you feel that it is unfair that such a guy would be successful with women, when he doesn’t fit your own idea of masculinity.

  • VD

    How does this square with hypergamy?

    Quite well, actually. Women want the best that they can get. I suspect that obese women find chunky little sausage men attractive and claim they don’t find tall, skinny emo boys to be attractive. And yet, if a skinny emo boy expressed credible interest, she’d trade up despite that supposed lack of attraction.

    Ever notice how the fat girls who lose weight don’t stick with the overweight nerds, but start dating the jocks they once affected not to like?

  • If he can’t clean up with the ladies, there isn’t much hope for most of us…

    You’re kidding me right? Don’t tell me you’ve forgotten Yohami’s famous 200 already.

  • Susan, I’m curious: would you have thought that Harden was a “restricted” type if you had seen his photos w/o any attached backstory? Or is his appeal that he looks the rockerboy arch-mage part but is in reality a husband and an outspoken and articulate critic of culture hook-up culture (perhaps the cultural equivalent of hybrid vigor)?

    I ask because I am curious about what a sociosexually-restricted male looks like like vs. an unrestricted one. Does the restricted type tend to have the somber, rather sad expression of an old soul (as if reflecting his moral disapproval with popular casual sex mores), while the unrestricted manhas the delighted Duchenne smile (or Phantom smirk…?) of a well-contented satyr?

    • @BB

      I don’t think it happens at the conscious level, but my guess is it’s all about the T levels. Off the charts T = bad dude (unless moderated by high E, perhaps 😉 ) Very low T = not even noticeable. Nathan Harden is rocking that jaw and beaky nose with big expressive eyes and lustrous hair. Also, not too musclebound.

      One study:Facial correlates of sociosexuality

      Observers have been previously found to distinguish sociosexuality from video footage of individuals, although the specific cues used have not been identified. Here we assessed the ability of observers to judge sexual strategy based specifically on cues in both facial composites and real faces. We also assessed how observers’ perceptions of the masculinity/femininity and attractiveness of faces relate to the sociosexual orientation of the pictured individuals. Observers were generally able to identify restricted vs. unrestricted individuals from cues in both composites and real faces. Unrestricted sociosexuality was generally associated with greater attractiveness in female composites and real female faces and greater masculinity in male composites. Although male observers did not generally associate sociosexuality with male attractiveness, female observers generally preferred more restricted males’ faces (i.e., those with relatively strong preferences for long-term relationships). Collectively, our results support previous findings that androgenisation in men is related to less restricted sexual behaviour and suggest that women are averse to unrestricted men.

      Another study: Sociosexuality moderates the association between testosterone and relationship status in men and women

      “In the current study, we assessed relations between three components of sociosexuality—desire, behavior, and attitudes—and endogenous testosterone levels in men and women. We found that partnered status was indeed associated with lower testosterone in both men and women, but only among those who reported more restricted sociosexuality. Partnered men who reported greater desire for uncommitted sexual activity had testosterone levels that were comparable to those of single men; partnered women who reported more frequent uncommitted sexual behavior had testosterone levels that were comparable to those of single women. These findings provide new evidence that people’s orientations toward sexual relationships, in combination with their relationship status, are associated with individual differences in testosterone. The current results are also among the first to demonstrate sociosexuality–testosterone associations in both men and women, and they reveal that the nature of these associations varies by gender.”

      I’ve written about these studies before. I only have PDFs rather than links but there are easily searchable.

  • Sassy6519

    I wouldn’t go that far. But I think he’s extraordinary looking. Very unusual and exotic. I also know he’s smart, conservative and HOH in love with his young wife. That makes him even sexier.

    I think he was fighting the girls off at Yale. He includes a couple of stories about being propositioned by girls who had no idea he was married. Propositioned as in the middle of the day, not at some party. I can assure you this guy is sexy in Girl Land.

    He reminds me of Stuart Townsend’s depiction of Lestat in the movie “Queen of the Damned”. He’s definitely exotic looking, and I find him attractive.

  • Ted D

    Olive – that was a poor attempt at sarcasm of sorts. I know he does well for himself. Actually he and I chat every so often about music. Not Mich lately because life has been screwing with my “free” time ( the same way it eats my “extra” money) and I haven’t been doing the music thing.

    I need to follow up with him on something I asked a few months back now that I think of it…

  • Escoffier

    The idea that we can tell people’s sexual habits and preferences based on facial features strikes me as dubious.

  • Ted D

    Much* I really hate using my phone to post.

  • pish posh

    Obese girls don’t date nerds. They’re too busy dying their Bettie Page hair pink, covering themselves with tattoos, seeing at least an eight in the mirror and considering themselves empowered real women as they’re being p&ded by skinny emo hipsters and street thugs. If they were to acquiesce to nerds or others on their SMV level they’d go into complete narcissistic collapse.

    • I live next to Allston, MA, the land of hipsters. I have never once seen a skinny hipster dude with a fat chick. Not even the ugly ones.

  • Ted D

    What’s wrong with tattoos? I’m not crazy about walking billboards, but a woman with some tasteful tats can be hot.

  • pish posh

    Nothing is wrong with tattoos, it’s just that there are a huge number of dumpy dowdy fours who get full sleeves and chunky glasses the moment they turn 18 and spend the next decade slut walking and chasing manorexic unobtainable hipsters in college.

  • Ion

    Mike C

    ” I think overall womens’ preferences in body types vary MUCH MORE than men. Men like different types with some preferring a bit thicker or some more waifish, but I don’t think you see the range of preferences women show. ”

    Agree. Could be for some that the waifish male look or the grungy “I don’t give a damn look” definitely has a humbling effect, so maybe some women associate muscles with male narcissism more than they inherently find it unattractive. Perhaps the male equivalent would be men who say they like women who are fit to a few extra pounds because its more humbling than skinny and gorgeous, obviously associating extreme commitment to a perfect body/looks with female narcissism.

    I don’t prefer Arnold at all, but I’d take Arnold over any skinny guy, and certainly over any guy who gives the impression that he’ll one day cut his wrists. And happen to like men who are thick with a little natural muscle tone, and stocky and “beefy” types a lot. That could be height too. But the athletic build is definitely classically attractive to many women (like James Bond athletic or Thor muscular definitely).

  • pvw

    @BB: I ask because I am curious about what a sociosexually-restricted male looks like like vs. an unrestricted one. Does the restricted type tend to have the somber, rather sad expression of an old soul (as if reflecting his moral disapproval with popular casual sex mores), while the unrestricted manhas the delighted Duchenne smile (or Phantom smirk…?) of a well-contented satyr?

    Me: Although this is addressed to Susan, I think it is a great question. I wonder how some of the other women would respond.

    The restricted types in my view have a more relaxed and down-to-earth mien, and I don’t mean a somber emo type–that type never appealed to me, while the unrestricted types can seem to always be on the prowl even when they might not intend to be. They always seem to be looking for their next opportunity, especially in assessing the women in their vicinity, checking them out, attempting to talk to them. The restricted types notice women, of course, but they just seem more relaxed and matter-of-fact about it, which can make it easier in reaching unrestricted women, it seems to me. Put them in a bar, who is likely to clean up better? It would be interesting to observe. Put them both at a book reading, who is likely to clean up better? Once again, it would be interesting to observe.

  • Benton

    I still don’t understand how women perceive promiscuity as “empowering.” They are putting themselves at risk for disease, pregnancy, and emotion trauma, and often times do not even organism. For many of them, their behavior will make it harder for them to have emotional attachments and long term partners. So why do they do it?
    It’s almost like the women who engaged in that behavior want to other women to behavior the same way, just “misery loves company.”

    The other thing that amazes me is how the Yale women think it is cool that they are taking advantage of guys. It is like they have adopted the worst of male behavior and think it is good. Don’t they realize that they may actually be hurting some of the guys who actually care about them?
    I don’t understand how some women can complain and demend respect when they don’t show it to men in return. And it seems that the worst are the elite college students, who are already getting a lot compared to everyone else in society.

    • @Benton

      The other thing that amazes me is how the Yale women think it is cool that they are taking advantage of guys. It is like they have adopted the worst of male behavior and think it is good. Don’t they realize that they may actually be hurting some of the guys who actually care about them?

      This is a great point, and you’re the first person to make it. When guys are overheard talking like that, I call them cads and selfish pricks and rightly so. These women are doing the exact same thing. Sure, lots of guys may be happy to be “used,” but not all. We know from male comments here that guys can wake up the morning after a hookup and hope the girl is open to a relationship.

  • VD

    What’s wrong with tattoos?

    Most are ugly and poorly done, they don’t tend to hold up well over time, and they signify low social class. It’s the modern mark of the proletariat. I always enjoy the elaborate attempts to explain their supposed significance that often accompanies them, however. My favorites are the Chinese ideograms that don’t mean what the person erroneously believes they mean.

    Just once I’d like to see a quote tattoo that says, in appropriately elaborate script: Please imagine a pretentious, pseudo-philosophical quote from an author I’ve never read here. Also, butterflies.

    • A 2010 Pew Research study found that nearly four out of 10 Millennials have tattoos, and out of them, 70 percent say the tattoos are on parts of their bodies that are coverable.

  • Ion

    Benton

    “I still don’t understand how women perceive promiscuity as “empowering.””

    It’s not. But it is certainly more empowering than being a prude “oppressed” virgin waiting for Prince Charming while brushing your hair every night in grandma’s nightgown.

    It’s more accurate to say that it’s imagined empowerment in comparison to an imagined alternative.

  • Ted D

    “Most are ugly and poorly done, they don’t tend to hold up well over time, and they signify low social class. ”

    Sweet! I guess I have no chance of pretending I didn’t come from a family of coal miners and mill workers. Which is fine by me.
    I wont argue with the “hold up over time” comment because I know it is truth. But, I went ahead and got a few anyway. My wife had none when we met, and I bought her first one as a birthday present. She now has two and we are both interested in getting more.

    “I always enjoy the elaborate attempts to explain their supposed significance that often accompanies them, however.”

    My first tat was partial payment for a gig we did. It was a birthday party for a guy that owned a shop, and in addition to a nice chunk of change and free beer for the day, I got a tribal tattoo that incorporates my Zodiac sign. My latest is a rather large tat of a phoenix on my left calf. I got it because I very much feel like I’ve risen from the ashes of my former life since my divorce and finding the Red Pill.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/phoenix%20tat%20(1).jpg

    My wife got that for me a few months before we married. I remember when I got her first, I made a funny comment about how I had “marked” her, and when I got this one she made some remark back about how we are both marked. I told her it didn’t matter, because once we were married I owned her ass. And then followed up by saying she could keep onwership of her brain, because I only wanted the good parts. LOL. She still married me, and I still tell her I own her ass regularly.

    Hope you enjoyed the explanation.

  • Ted D

    That URL seems to have broken. Not sure why that happened, but the entire thing including the .jpg should be the URL.

    Edit would be SOOOoooo nice…. Susan?… 😛

    • @Ted D

      Tried to repair your link, but it didn’t work. I have no idea why.

  • Ion

    Holy hell Ted D, that tattoo is amazing. 🙂

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    OMG!! Tyson Ritter and Jared Leto are probably my top 2 celebrity crushes. I think both of those men are to die for.

    It’s funny that you brought them up. Those are exactly the type of men I go after and date. Exactly that.

    @ Mike C

    What I haven’t been able to deduce is what separates the women how prefer more of the skinny look from a more developed build. I would have thought it was linked to certain traits but Sassy’s physical preferences have steered me away from that hypothesis. I think restricted versus unrestricted might play some role in it.

    It would be interesting to see what separates the two groups of women. I definitely prefer men on the leaner side. I don’t know why that is really.

  • Esau

    VD: I’m a writer and I could probably brood for England.

    Runner-up for comment of the week (but we expect no less from a writer).

  • JP

    Tatoos violate the moral order and are per se improper human actions?

    I just take it as an apriori fact of reality and move on.

  • Escoffier

    Personally I hate tatoos and they would be a deal breaker for me.

  • Ted D

    Ion – Thanks! I’ll be sure to pass that on to my tattoo artist. She is one of the nicest people I know. She drew that for me from scratch and even gave me a “smudge stick” (I think that’s what they are called) print of it to hang on my wall. She also fronts a local Christian metal band here in Pittsburgh that I hope will get some notice.

    It took a little over 6 hours and two session. That picture was taken right after the second session, so it looks all shiney and a little scaled. I need to stop back over at her shop soon so she can get a picture to hang on her wall. Like I said, life has been tossing me curve balls lately, and the kids are getting older an involved in lots of after school activities. As much as I’m not looking forward to insurance costs, it will be nice when they can drive themselves around.

  • pvw

    @BastiatBlogger, further thoughts.

    Now I wouldn’t presume that any guy who seemed “hungry” was unrestricted, he could easily be a restricted type who is on a dry spell, ie., verging on a weird omega type, and in the same way an unrestricted type could be satisfied and relaxed. But I’m more likely to see the obviously “hungry and eager” hunter type as being unrestricted, especially if he has a smoothness to him. The restricted type would seem to have more self-control, ie., he is not controlled by his urges…He operates at a whole other level, which can be very appealing, a different type of hunter.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “Personally I hate tatoos and they would be a deal breaker for me.”

    To each their own. You have to remember the circles I ran in, and the fact that despite my families Roman Catholic traditions, we had our fair share of “rebels” and such. I grew up around tats, and really didn’t see them as out of the ordinary in any way.

    The wife’s tats:
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/.facebook_5811576.jpg
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27675532/.facebook_311212151.jpg
    The tree of life is the one I got for her.

  • VD

    Tatoos violate the moral order and are per se improper human actions?

    I don’t think Ted was using “wrong” in that sense. I don’t have a problem with them, although I will confess to looking a little askance at one sported by a teammate. Men, at least straight men, really should not have tramp stamps. But I was just answering Ted’s question.

    I do think tattoos are a big mistake for middle class and upper middle class people who don’t understand the importance of class signifiers or understand that the people with whom they want to leave a positive impression may not always have the tastes of intoxicated college students.

  • Lokland

    Also of the tats are low class opinion and on women pretty much by definition mean slutty.
    Definitely a deal breaker.

  • JP

    I think I always considered tattoos as signs of moral depravity.

    As well as teenage rebellion (in the sense of sex, drugs, and rock and roll) or social rebellion of any kind.

    I would have made a wonderful puritan enforcer back in the day.

  • Mike C

    Agree. Could be for some that the waifish male look or the grungy “I don’t give a damn look” definitely has a humbling effect, so maybe some women associate muscles with male narcissism more than they inherently find it unattractive.

    This could be. I think most women find it distasteful if a guy seems overly focused on his appearance which is something I figured out along the way. I’ve got some personal experiences that come to mind.

    I don’t prefer Arnold at all, but I’d take Arnold over any skinny guy, and certainly over any guy who gives the impression that he’ll one day cut his wrists.

    I just find the extremes in reaction fascinating. On the one side, you’ve got “gross”, “blech” and “ewww” almost like a guy seeing a morbidly obese woman, and on the other side I can say with certainty there are women who get very, very, very turned on by say a pair of 16-18 inch arms (and assuming everything else is in proportion). One inside joke amongst bodybuilder type are guys with “no wheels”…they do all upper body work and have chicken legs. It is a weird look. I think height and limb length makes a difference. An extra 30-50 pounds of muscle looks different on a guy who is 6’3″-6’4″ with long arms and legs versus a guy who is 5’6-5’8” with short arms and short legs.

    And happen to like men who are thick with a little natural muscle tone, and stocky and “beefy” types a lot.

    Sometimes it is hard for me to ascertain what is exactly meant by these qualitative descriptions. Ultimately, the body looks comes down to bone structure, muscle size, and bodyfat level. My sense is stocky is more of a larger bone structure (look at wrists) along with a not too low bodyfat or too high. It is possible but rare to have a smaller bone structure with very large muscular size. The emo look is kind of a combination of small bone structure with very low muscular development and low bodyfat.

  • Escoffier

    I am grateful that I was spared the age of the tat. Back when I was getting different girls naked every once in a while, no one had tats–at least no in my circles. Also, piercings were one per ear and that was it. I did actually date a girl who had several piercings in her left ear (three or more as I recall) but some time before I met her she had apparently given up on wearing more than one but the holes were still visible.

    I have occasionally had bad dreams about marrying a pretty girl and then finding out on the wedding night that she was tatted and pierced. They freak me out.

    My actual wife does not even have pierced ears.

  • JP

    Maybe I have Intermittent Explosive Disorder, Moral Anger sub-type.

    If anyone needs a single minded crusader or wants to restart prohibition and needs some help, I’m available.

    Intermittent Explosive Disorder:

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/intermittent-explosive-disorder/DS00730

    “Intermittent explosive disorder involves repeated episodes of impulsive, aggressive, violent behavior or angry verbal outbursts in which you react grossly out of proportion to the situation. Road rage, domestic abuse, throwing or breaking objects, or other temper tantrums may be signs of intermittent explosive disorder.”

    Moral Anger:

    “Moral Anger: Some people think they have a right to be angry when others have broken a rule. That makes the offenders bad, evil, wicked, sinful. They have to be scolded, maybe punished. People with this anger style feel outraged about what bad people are doing. They say they have a right to defend their “beliefs.” They claim moral superiority. They gain the sense that anger is for a good cause. They don’t feel guilty when they get angry because of this. They often feel superior to others even in their anger. These people suffer from black-and-white thinking, which means they see the world too simply. They fail to understand people who are different from themselves. They often have rigid ways of thinking and doing things. Another problem with this anger style is crusading – attacking every problem or difference of opinion with moral anger when compromise or understanding might be better.”

    http://www.asktheinternettherapist.com/articles/anger-management/

  • Ted D

    VD – every one of my tats are covered when I’m dressed for work. (Long sleeves required!) 😉

    JP – you’ve seen my posts. Would you say I’m immoral or depraved? I’m a firm believer that you should NEVER judge a book by its cover. Some people simply express themselves with adornments. I have a #6 gauge in my left ear too. I simply wear a diamond “stud” at work. It looms no worse than your average pro-sports guy with a big rock in his ear, until I switch it out for a big loop.

  • Mike C

    It would be interesting to see what separates the two groups of women. I definitely prefer men on the leaner side. I don’t know why that is really.

    I know I’m covering old ground here but you are mixing up two different things. “Leanness” is function of bodyfat level. Muscular development/size is a separate physical dimension. To give an example, Arnold is “leaner” in the photo I provided than Michael Phelps is in Olympic swimming condition, but they have massively different levels of muscle mass. Top pro bodybuilders are super lean on stage, but I know you don’t like that look at all. So I’m not referring to your preference for lean, but your stated preference for not too much muscular development. Generally speaking, I think *all* women prefer a “lean” look in that they probably prefer bodyfat levels between 8-12/14%. At around 8, you’ll see abs and those striations that Susan appears to like, but much below 8 you’ll start to see a level of vascularity that I think women do NOT like. Once you get above 15%, a guy’s waistline is going to start looking a bit pudgy.

  • JP

    I’m not saying that my (apparently fixed) initial emotional reaction to tattoos is rational or sensible.

    I tend to be extremely perfectionistic, and I also tend to project such perfectionism outward.

    Such an approach is useful in some situations and extremely unhelpful in others, such as situations that involve winning friends and influencing people.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    Just to play devil’s advocate…There is a possibility that these young ladies from Yale have lower SMV than the athletes they lured into having sex.

    The argument that they should “know better” because they are Yale students doesn’t quite hold. Being intelligent or highly educated does not raise a wonan’s SMV. Maybe men are actually NOT lining up to sleep with them, based on these young ladies’ looks, lack of flirtatiousness, etc.

    I do not agree with their behavior. No one should use alcohol to manipulate another person. A lady shouldn’t go seeking out meaningless hook ups, even if it means being passed up because you are not a 7+ on the SMV.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “Also of the tats are low class opinion and on women pretty much by definition mean slutty.”

    Some of the most devout Christians I know are covered in ink. My tattoo artist is a a very cute woman, 5’4″, Purple hair (last I saw her anyway), and multipole piercings. When she isn’t at the shop, she spends her time taking care of an autistic son and working her ass off for her Church. (the metal band she is in is actually sponsered in part by her parish.)

    Her sense of morality simply astounds me.

  • JP

    The entire tatooing craze is a produce of the 1960’s.

    It will last until at least the next Awakening Era circa 2040.

  • Ted D

    JP – “I’m not saying that my (apparently fixed) initial emotional reaction to tattoos is rational or sensible.”

    No worries man. My reaction to high N count isn’t exactly “rational” either I suppose.

    I’m used to people making judgments based on my tats and piercings. I dont take it personally. But I do enjoy seeing how surprised they are once they get to know me. It’s an image, or one of my images I suppose. (since I can also do the “corporate” look convincingly as well)

  • Escoffier

    “The entire tatooing craze is a produce of the 1960′s. ”

    I don’t see that at all. Seems like a very recent thing to me.

  • Cooper

    ““Most are ugly and poorly done, they don’t tend to hold up well over time, and they signify low social class. ”

    Personally, not a fan of tattoos. I don’t mind them on guys, and used to have plans of getting a few myself. But then, I slowly started dislike them on girls. Like VD, there often poorly done, and with women I find – poorly selected. Some guys I know have cool ones that involve family crests, or names, or have great symbolizism to their lives. With girls though its like “oh… And I for this butterfly on foot when I was travelling in ‘inset destination, and this wrapping bouquet of flowers that wraps from my neck, (to side boob), and down my back represents how much I like the colour purple.’

    And I do know a few girls with tattoos and a few of theirs’ came from “I was drunk, and we were bored.”

    For some reason, tattoos often come from vacations. And I hate that nasty statistic that says something like 50%, of women in thier twenties admit to having a ONS while on vacation. I know this might seem silly, but when they tell me the story of where they were when they got their tattoo, while on vacation, I think “hmm. I wonder what other, wild (or incongruent) behaviour did you endulge yourself in”

    Ted, don’t get me wrong – I have no issues with tats, I just tend to find them unappealing on women – especially visible ones. I know a young girl put, what looks like gensing off a Arizona green tea (identical actually), up her neck.
    Just the other day, I was going to ask for a cute baristas’ phone number, who I’ve been getting coffee from at the hospital in the last while, and one day I saw she had full sleeves. To me, it was a turn off.

  • JP

    The initiation of the current cultural development that are novel and widespread originate from the 1960’s, in this case freedom from tradition coupled with self-expression.

    When was the computer first developed and when did everyone get laptops?

    Social developments take time because people are people.

  • Royale W. Cheese

    To add, I wrote #177 from the perspective of a woman who is in the same boat, intelligent and passable, but light years outside of the universe of dainty magical exotic girls that athletes go after.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Mike C

    Okay. I understand.

    After your explanation, I would say that I prefer men who are both lean and who have less developed musculature.

    Here’s a pic of Jared leto.

    http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users16/panicatmars/default/jared-letoshirtless–large-msg-118556475725.jpg

    Here’s a pic of Ian Somerhalder.

    http://standrivel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ian-Somerhalder-Shirtless-50-shades-of-grey-3.jpg

    That’s the level of leanness and muscle definition that I like. I don’t even want children, but both of those men could have my babies. Swoon!

    I need a cold drink.

  • Escoffier

    I’ve spent a lot of time studying and thinking about the 60s and I still don’t see any connection at all, beyond the most basic “The 60s were about personal freedom and tats are a manfestation of personal freedom.” Which is true but vague, and I see much else going on, especially a taste for tats among people who have nothing in common with the 60s.

    I’ve spent a lot of my life in hippie towns and by and large the hippies are not as tatted as other segments of the population.

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “Ted, don’t get me wrong – I have no issues with tats, I just tend to find them unappealing on women – especially visible ones. ”

    It’s all good brother. It really is a matter of taste, and I simply grew up exposed to them regularly. (My grandfather and great-uncles all served in the military, and got inked up as many other military men did.)

    My wife put hers in places she can easily cover as well. (middle of shoulders and top of foot) for the same reason I did: employers (at least employers that pay better than Wal-mart) don’t often look on ink as a sign of a hard working employee. Now I’ll tell you that I really love that Tree of Life she has. It looks great when I’m doing my thing from behind. 😉 She is NOT getting a “tramp stamp” though. Not only do I think they are overdone and played out, but she thinks they simply look slutty.

  • Iggles

    @ Mule Chewing Briars:

    The older I get, the more surprised I am by women’s sexual preferences when I discover them. The lean and hungry look has a lot more appeal than men usually think. Men tend to believe that women prefer a lot of musculature, but that isn’t necessarily the case.

    Men are impressed by heavily muscled dudes far more than women are. It’s an example of intrasexual competition. He’s more “manly” in their eyes, since he can lift more weights but that won’t make him the top choice universally for women.

    SW and Emily,

    We’ll have to agree to disagree about Nathan Harden and his brethren! I just don’t see it…

    I don’t find his face attractive, and don’t think that would change even if he had shorter hair. I do like long hair on some guys, but on thin, lithe, feminine featured men having long hair often makes them look too girlie for my tastes!

    With male body types, I find too skinny to be a turn off. On the other end of the spectrum, I also don’t find guys that are overly muscled or overweight attractive either.

    My boyfriend’s right in the sweet spot 🙂 He has a lean build, and when he flexes his biceps he has visible muscle there. He’s just below average height for a guy (standing at around 5’8) and is well proportioned. (Short legs/long torso would be a major turn off!) He’s gained some weight since we started dating, in part because I cook and am always trying to feed him 😆 (He usually claims he’s not hungry but as soon as the food is ready he sings a different tune! Not that I can blame him. This week I made salmon with mushroom ravioli and veggies. The day before, I made mussels with pasta and clam sauce!). It doesn’t make much of a difference to me – his frame holds up well – but he’s heading back into the gym.

  • Mike C

    Some guys I know have cool ones that involve family crests, or names, or have great symbolizism to their lives.

    I’ve been going back and forth the last several months on getting the symbol next to my comments on my shoulder. My fiancee says to just do it (she has tattoos on her ankle and one on her stomach) but the permanence of it has held me back. The symbol is the logo of one of my favorite bands plus it has a lot of meaning to me personally because of what it represents.

  • Ion

    “Some of the most devout Christians I know are covered in ink.”

    If I see one more tattoo of a giant cross, random scriptures, or praying hands…

    I guess the logic is so long as it’s not on your forehead with the number 666…tattoos are OK.

  • Ted D

    Susan – ” Interesting that respect is a factor – perhaps you feel that it is unfair that such a guy would be successful with women, when he doesn’t fit your own idea of masculinity.”

    It doesn’t bother me so much as it intrigues me honestly. I used to wonder what women saw in such guys from a base attraction standpoint to be honest, but I was never jealous of the attention they got. If that is what a particular woman wants, then nothing I have to offer her will do. I understand that being over weight is unattractive, but if I’m fit and still don’t generate that “he’s hot” response from a woman, there is nothing to be done but move on.

    However I feel lime such men do NOT demonstrate an ability to protect at all. Don’t get me wrong, I know some scrawny looking guys that are strong as hell. But they also look like they’d die from only a week with no food. And you know I’m all about surviving those zombies…

  • VD

    “Leanness” is function of bodyfat level. Muscular development/size is a separate physical dimension.

    Good point. Harden is slim, but he isn’t actually lean, as you can’t see any veins in his arms, much less his hips.

    Here’s a pic of Jared leto.

    He likely lifts weights, though not free weights. His chest is noticeably well-developed compared to the rest of his upper body.

    Russell Brand has an exquisitely handsome face, his SMV is very, very high. I believe his number is over 2,000, so there are bound to be a few warpigs in there, but I believe he’s rarely if ever been turned down.

    I’m not talking about the warpigs, I’m talking about the women with whom he customarily involves himself. They’re all low-rent 7s. I actually think his skinny, dirty hipster style prevents him from doing as well as he could. Compare him to Leonardo di Caprio, who alternates between 8s in great shape (Laker girls) and 10s (Victoria’s Secret models) despite an almost husky build. Of course, di Caprio is much higher status.

    Interesting that respect is a factor – perhaps you feel that it is unfair that such a guy would be successful with women, when he doesn’t fit your own idea of masculinity.

    This is a fairly common feeling among Betas.

  • Ion

    RwC

    “The argument that they should “know better” because they are Yale students doesn’t quite hold. Being intelligent or highly educated does not raise a wonan’s SMV. ”

    Nothing says frigid ice queen like ivy league WASP.

    On the contrary, men love southern college girls (who range from lower class to upper class). Many are definitely attractive, but the overall warmth and sweetness of southern (and some midwestern) girls must factor into that preference.

    Intelligence does raise a woman’s SMV if she is already attractive and warm.

  • VD

    I live next to Allston, MA, the land of hipsters. I have never once seen a skinny hipster dude with a fat chick. Not even the ugly ones.

    Have you ever seen a skinny hipster dude with a hot gym bunny? Or with pretty, high-class woman clad torso-to-toe in designer wear? I don’t know that I’ve ever even seen a hipster dude with a woman with implants.

    • Have you ever seen a skinny hipster dude with a hot gym bunny?

      No, but I assume that’s his choice as much as hers. They don’t run in the same circles, and that is a choice. Those guys don’t go to the gym.

      I have seen many hipsters dudes with extremely hot MFA students. I have also seen very hot preppy girls go out and get hipstered up to be more attractive to those guys, otherwise they get written off.

      Or with pretty, high-class woman clad torso-to-toe in designer wear?

      Those women are incompatible with the rebel hipster’s values.

      I don’t know that I’ve ever even seen a hipster dude with a woman with implants.

      Which is ironic, since there are lots of fake hipsters around.

  • Ted D

    Ion -“I guess the logic is so long as it’s not on your forehead with the number 666…tattoos are OK.”

    There are so many reasons I’m going to hell that ink isn’t even a factor. Lol

    I often say my best hope of seeing Heaven is that God has a great sense of humor.

    VD – it might be beta. But I’ll tell you respect plays a huge role for me in all of my male relationships. If I can’t respect a man, I can’t like him. Now that respect comes from many different indicators, “manly” look being only one of those.

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    “Some of the most devout Christians”

    Deal breaker.

    “I know are covered in ink.”

    Deal breaker.

    “My tattoo artist is a a very cute woman, 5’4″, Purple hair”

    Deal breaker.

    “(last I saw her anyway), and multipole piercings.”

    Deal breaker.

    I like woman that don’t look like they walked out of a Star Wars movie.
    The only hamsterization I had to do with my wife was acceptance of a piercing she had in her mid ear that she rarely ever wore. (I didn’t know for 3 months.)
    After finding out I seriously considered ending it. Same the time she went home to visit and forgot to take it out when she came back.

    “Her sense of morality simply astounds me.”

    I didn’t comment on the morality of tats.
    Being a great person doesn’t make them a suitable mate.

  • Mike C

    Intelligence does raise a woman’s SMV if she is already attractive and warm.

    It’s basically icing on the cake. And you can eat cake without icing, but icing all by itself isn’t really tasty or satisfying.

  • Escoffier

    My daughter knows that she will be disinherited if she gets a tattoo. She stands to inherit at least one really nice thing so I hope she gets the message.

  • Jonny

    “Some of the most devout Christians I know are covered in ink.”

    Which means absolutely nothing. Chrisitianity is for the sinful as you should know. No one is cured.

    Tatoos signifies many things. That one mistake is constantly there to remind you. It is worse than merely a memory.

    In some cultures, tatoos is about criminal history. I heard stories about celebrities touring in Asia getting kicked out of establishments for having visible tatoos.

    “My favorites are the Chinese ideograms that don’t mean what the person erroneously believes they mean.”

    People are completely thoughtless of why they should get the Chinese symbols when they don’t speak the language. If it means so much, couldn’t they at least figure the words out. Relying on the tatoo artist for their meaning is careless. Other Asians are laughing behind their backs. It’s sort of like wearing a T-Shirt with English slogans that was designed in China. We seen those before.

    The cluelessness of the tatooed.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “A 2010 Pew Research study found that nearly four out of 10 Millennials have tattoos, and out of them, 70 percent say the tattoos are on parts of their bodies that are coverable.”

    Holy shit! You mean for once I was ahead of the fashion curve?!

    “Tried to repair your link, but it didn’t work. I have no idea why.”

    No big. Nothing earth shattering to be seen anyway. I’m just feeling the desire to “show off” lately. I forgot how energizing it is to do some real exercise. I honestly believed that it had more to do with my age and virility back when I was a young guy and much less to do with how the body reacts to being put to work. I can see how some people get “addicted” to working out, as the rush that comes from it is very nice.

    I’m also not discounting the added boost I’m getting from my Red Pill knowledge. Back then I might have enjoyed working out, but I never used it as fuel to feel better about myself, so to speak. I’m actually a little amazed at how out of my shell I’ve been the last few weeks. Hell just this week I “opened” up a pair of women in line waiting to check out for lunch. It actually started because I noticed one of them had a tattoo on her foot and I commented that it was very nice, and looked rather hot with the shoes she was wearing. (I figured if she was showing it, she wanted people to see it and all…). We had a 10 minute chat that I left feeling pretty good about. Don’t worry, I’m not collecting numbers or scoping out an affair partner. I’m just trying on my new shoes to see how they fit.

  • Ion

    Mike C

    “An extra 30-50 pounds of muscle looks different on a guy who is 6’3″-6’4″ with long arms and legs versus a guy who is 5’6-5’8″ with short arms and short legs.”

    Definitely, and still, being a little bigger is definitely a plus for a guy 5’6-5’8. I wonder if the women here who don’t mind thinness feel this way primarily with guys over 5’8. I usually hear “he’s short, but he has a nice body” (meaning some mass) from women. Never really heard of women feeling emo-thinness on guys who are shorter.

    But I think you’re right that stocky really encompasses a lot, its basically any guy who can get away with extra weight without looking pregnant.

    In short: many women like a variety of body types, but very few women would kick Joe Manginello out of bed http://www.becauseiamfabulous.com/wp-content/uploads/14-Joe-Manganiello-picture.jpg. I know women say they don’t like men too “ripped” or “jacked” but they do love broad shoulders, defined forearms, and they get turned on seeing a man’s defined back through his clothes. All of which require at least SOME muscle, I think.

    “The emo look is kind of a combination of small bone structure with very low muscular development and low bodyfat.”

    Yeah, “skinny fat” men with no bodyfat accept for around their torsos. Personally, I’ll pass.

    • few women would kick Joe Manginello out of bed

      The guy on the left has 10 times the female fans:

      as

  • Ted D

    “My daughter knows that she will be disinherited if she gets a tattoo. She stands to inherit at least one really nice thing so I hope she gets the message.”

    Mine has just finished figuring out what she wants for her first. Needless to say I’m not against it, although I adviced her strongly to put it somewhere she can cover it. And I don’t plan to leave my kids anything other than a bunch of crap to dig through. I’m not working my butt off to leave them an inheritance. I’m doing it so I can spend my final years blowing money like it grows on trees. Of course there is a high likelyhood that I won’t be able to do so, but a guy can dream!

    Johhny – “Which means absolutely nothing. Chrisitianity is for the sinful as you should know. No one is cured.”

    Surely. I was just stating that a person with tattoos CAN and often IS a moral/upstanding/honorable person. Its that judging a book by its cover thing again. I have no desire to justify my ink. I got them all because I wanted to, and if people won’t talk to me because of it I promise I won’t mind. My only concern was gainful employment, which is why all of mine are strategically placed.

    “Tatoos signifies many things. That one mistake is constantly there to remind you. It is worse than merely a memory.”

    Actually every single one of mine remind me of something pleasant in my past. I won’t say that each has some deeper significants or anything, but I don’t spend that kind of money when I’m feeling down or depressed. I tend to ink up when I’m at a high point in my life. I don’t really do pictures or home movies, but I do remember periods of my life when I got a new tattoo.

    “People are completely thoughtless of why they should get the Chinese symbols when they don’t speak the language.”

    I’ll go further and say that people are thoughless when they put ANY symbol on their body permenantly without any idea of what that symbol actually means. There isn’t a thing on my body I didn’t spend months thinking about, including my very first tat. It took me 8 months to collect my “payment” for that gig, because I didn’t want to rush into it and regret it later.

    Lokland – “The only hamsterization I had to do with my wife was acceptance of a piercing she had in her mid ear that she rarely ever wore.”

    My wife has a piercing on the outer rim of her ear, in the cartilage and she has a small gold hoop in it. I like to nibble on it when she lays on me while we watch TV. Everyone likes something different I guess.

  • Ion

    @ VD

    “Have you ever seen a skinny hipster dude with a hot gym bunny? Or with pretty, high-class woman clad torso-to-toe in designer wear? I don’t know that I’ve ever even seen a hipster dude with a woman with implants.”

    Now that you mention it, I haven’t. Nor have I seen a hipster with a cheerleader type girl, a girl who is a 8-10, a model, etc.,

    In NYC I mainly see them with pasty skinny arty types maybe 3-6 in attractiveness, much like themselves.

    They win in their own market only.

  • Stickwick

    He looks tough as nails in some ways, but like he would be very passionate.

    To me, he looks like someone I could probably beat up, or at least make cry. We’re looking at the same photo, but having two totally different reactions, Susan. Fascinating.

  • Sassy6519

    Have you ever seen a skinny hipster dude with a hot gym bunny? Or with pretty, high-class woman clad torso-to-toe in designer wear? I don’t know that I’ve ever even seen a hipster dude with a woman with implants.

    I’ve been surprised by pairings like this on more than a few occasions. Typically, the hipster guy has such a striking face that he could stop traffic. The blonde-bunny types that hang on their arms seem happy.

    One thing I’ve found to be true is that women will give a man a lot of leeway if he has a very distinct, attractive, and striking face.

  • Sassy6519

    This discussion brings to mind another one of my top celebrity crushes. Brandon Boyd, the lead singer of Incubus, really fits the bill of the type of man I like.

    http://www.eforu.com/gallery/brandonboyd/pic8.html

    http://jadynmarie.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/brandon-boyd.jpg

    http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/70487/Brandon+Boyd.jpg

  • Ion

    Iggles:

    “I do like long hair on some guys, but on thin, lithe, feminine featured men having long hair often makes them look too girlie for my tastes!”

    Interesting you say this, because I totally just remembered who Nathan Harden reminds me of

    Side by side

    Transwoman from famous Crying Game movie (VERY androgynous)
    http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users13/jaye4ever/default/jaye-davidson–large-msg-116219395475.jpg

    Nathan Harden
    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Nathan-Harden-300×207.png

    No? Yes? Maybe?

    • Ion,

      Haha, the dude from the Crying Game looks like Jessica Alba.

  • INTJ

    @ Sassy6519

    Okay. I understand.

    After your explanation, I would say that I prefer men who are both lean and who have less developed musculature.

    Here’s a pic of Jared leto.

    http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users16/panicatmars/default/jared-letoshirtless–large-msg-118556475725.jpg

    Here’s a pic of Ian Somerhalder.

    http://standrivel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Ian-Somerhalder-Shirtless-50-shades-of-grey-3.jpg

    That’s the level of leanness and muscle definition that I like. I don’t even want children, but both of those men could have my babies. Swoon!

    I need a cold drink.

    Both of those guys are decently muscular. Compared to them, there are a lot of guys who either have much less muscle or their muscle is covered by bodyfat.

  • BroHamlet

    @Ion & Sassy

    They win in their own market only

    One thing I’ve found to be true is that women will give a man a lot of leeway if he has a very distinct, attractive, and striking face.

    You’re both right to a degree. I run with people from both camps. Your average hipster dude doesn’t do that well outside of his element in part because “conventional” girls (non-hipsters) like more conventional guys most of the time unless said hipster has clout in their world, and partly because a lot of hipster guys have no desire to live the life of the average 9-to-5er or dip too far into the mainstream. Sassy is correct too- a pretty face is undeniable, and I’ve seen it work wonders for guys that were completely out of their element.

  • Re: Jared Leto. I actually had a maybe 10-15 minute chat with that guy at a Bowery rock event in NYC earlier this year. He was totally chill and low-key; when I realized who was standing next to me, I couldn’t think of anything else to say except, “Let’s see Paul Allen’s card” (“American Psycho” fans may get the reference). He left without saying a word and when he came back he had a cocktail for me. What a cool dude; I can understand the appeal.

    pvw: very interesting comments about restricted and unrestricted males. It seems to me like you are picking up on tell-tale behavioral signs; would you feel that you could also accurately make such a determination by simply looking at a still photograph of the guy? Or do you need to see him operating in a social setting?

    Susan: I described your high-T/high-E chimera to a couple of similarly educated women in my circle and they completely agreed with you. They felt that high-T/high-E looks “aristocratic” and “beautifully masculine”, while high-T alone looks “Paleo” and “violent.” High-E alone looked like a good confidant type, or perhaps hair stylist, but apparently lacked the appropriate level of sexual dominance and hinted at a penis of less-than-satisfying dimensions.

    Re: physiques. Perhaps form follows function: if the heights of male athleticism are A) fighting and B) long-range persistence-type hunting, then the ideal build would combine a capacity for the short, sharp bursts of kinetic shock battle with the ability to stalk for hours. You’d want plenty of functional muscle, low body fat, and superior conditioning. Some of the elite MMA middleweights (185 pounders—probably cutting weight from around 200-205 pre-camp) might fit this description pretty well. The average operator in Delta Force is 5’11/185.

    • They felt that high-T/high-E looks “aristocratic” and “beautifully masculine”, while high-T alone looks “Paleo” and “violent.” High-E alone looked like a good confidant type, or perhaps hair stylist, but apparently lacked the appropriate level of sexual dominance and hinted at a penis of less-than-satisfying dimensions.

      Interesting, I’m not all that surprised. When you say hair stylist, I assume you’re referring to gay men. Do they have smaller penises, on average?

  • pvw

    @BastiatBlogger:

    pvw: very interesting comments about restricted and unrestricted males. It seems to me like you are picking up on tell-tale behavioral signs; would you feel that you could also accurately make such a determination by simply looking at a still photograph of the guy? Or do you need to see him operating in a social setting?

    Me: I don’t believe I could ever possibly guess from a still photograph. I would have to see him in a social setting. Who does he talk to? How does he go about talking to women? If I were to make brief eye contact and nod hello, what would be his response?

    From a photograph, I could tell whether I believe he is very handsome or not. I must admit that upon seeing a still photograph of a very handsome man, ie., approaching the look of certain types of alpha men, muscular, but not overly so, nice face, I would tend to presume that he is unrestricted, only because a man who is that good looking will tend to attract lots of women. I’d want to see him in a social setting; how does he deal with his looks and women’s responses? The downside is that if he is restricted, it might be an uphill battle for him–if women presume he is unrestricted, but he really isn’t…..

    In the same vein, guys who are not overly handsome, ie., classically handsome faces, with an average to somewhat muscular build, I am more likely to presume they are restrictecd, again, because they are not likely to have women chasing after them all the time. I’d want to see them in a social setting as well.

    Susan: I described your high-T/high-E chimera to a couple of similarly educated women in my circle and they completely agreed with you. They felt that high-T/high-E looks “aristocratic” and “beautifully masculine”, while high-T alone looks “Paleo” and “violent.” High-E alone looked like a good confidant type, or perhaps hair stylist, but apparently lacked the appropriate level of sexual dominance and hinted at a penis of less-than-satisfying dimensions.

    Me: I agree, especially on the high t alone, those guys look scary to me. High t, high e, handsome; high e, too feminine looking…..That reminds me of Susan’s post on men’s faces: ltr, str, etc.

  • Mike C

    Given the discussion, I figured I’d post this which is the couple Eve Torres and MMA fighter Rener Gracie. I personally think Eve Torres is smoking hot although she probably has some aspects of a masculinized face (probably a daughter of a high T guy)

    https://www.google.com/search? hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&tok=uSP-h1qakNKf5ltThTwqZQ&pq=eve+ torres+and+grady+powell+ dating&cp=16&gs_id=33&xhr=t&q= eve+torres+and+rener+gracie& bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.& bpcl=35466521&biw=1107&bih= 426&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch& source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei= xtCKULLuFJKCyAHPoYDQCQ

    Bastiat, Rener probably has exactly the body type you are describing although I think he might be a bit taller.

    I’m interested to see anyone’s initial reaction to either one of them in terms of physical appearance, but particularly Rener (given that he is walking around with Eve on his arm).

  • Ted D

    Susan – “The guy on the left has 10 times the female fans:”

    I have no idea who those guys are, but just based on their looks I find this truly bizarre. I feel like I’m in upside-down world, where everything is exactly opposite of what it should be.

    • I have no idea who those guys are, but just based on their looks I find this truly bizarre. I feel like I’m in upside-down world, where everything is exactly opposite of what it should be.

      They’re both stars of the HBO show True Blood. Alexander Skaarsgard on the left has made the transition to movie star. He plays a vampire. Joe Manganiello has become popular more recently, and he plays a werewolf. Team Edward all the way!

      • More time tested skinny hotties:

        ad

        gh

        Orlando Bloom:

        ob

        jm

        Gotta run, will ask around!

        Let’s get some more women on here who like the beefy types.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Susan Walsh

    The guy on the left has 10 times the female fans.

    Oh Alexander Skarsgard. You will forever remind me of my recent ex-bf.

  • Re: homosexual cock dimensions. I really don’t know (!); I’m just faithfully reporting what I was told. I would also wonder if high T/E is occasionally a recipe for an alpha gay.

    • Re: homosexual cock dimensions. I really don’t know (!); I’m just faithfully reporting what I was told.

      LMAO, didn’t mean to put you on the spot. I have no info there either!

      I would also wonder if high T/E is occasionally a recipe for an alpha gay.

      When I was researching the effects of prenatal androgens for the post on finger length ratios, I came across a lot of research focusing on this as a determinant of male homosexuality. It seems like the evidence is pointing increasingly towards genetics, and I think this may be where the focus is.

  • Ion

    Susan

    “The guy on the left has 10 times the female fans:”

    Yep! I don’t doubt it. Skarsgard is definitely lean but muscular, and I prefer him a little more than the muscled Joe. But both are pretty hot to me.

    Ohhhh True Blood. The acting is so laughable and horrendous that I sometimes rewind and slow motion.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ion

    Ohhhh True Blood. The acting is so laughable and horrendous that I sometimes rewind and slow motion.

    Hahahaha!!

  • Ion

    “Yep! I don’t doubt it. Skarsgard is definitely lean but muscular, and I prefer him a little more than the muscled Joe. But both are pretty hot to me.”

    Oops, I didn’t mean to be confusing here. Skaarsgard is slightly more attractive, and plays a more attractive character (Joe is always pining after Sookie and growling). Even if Skaarsgard had the body of Joe, I’d still prefer him slightly more than Joe, and 10x more than a Jared Leto type. Heck, I’d date Al from Home Improvement over Jared Leto.

  • Ted D

    “Let’s get some more women on here who like the beefy types.”

    Big guys need lovin’ too! 😛

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    Remember what Desi said about boomer androgyny? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLK5ZOjWaXE

  • Stickwick

    Let’s get some more women on here who like the beefy types.

    Susan, I wrote a post about the appeal of macho men a few years ago, complete with photos. Nothing has changed, except I’d add Jason “Dreamboat” Statham to the lineup.

    Siiiigggghhhhh ….

    • @Stickwick

      I had no idea you had a blog! Love the tagline, by the way. I daresay you and I could have been BFFs – our taste does not overlap!

      I would point out that the movies you represent in your post are made primarily for a male audience, including James Bond. When you think about rom coms, made for women, the male leads are far less muscular looking, and generally are more feminine in appearance.

  • pvw

    @Susan (and to some extent, BastiatBlogger):

    Alexander v. Joe. Joe is very, very hot!!! Oh my. Alexander is cute. The husband is in between them in looks, ie., more facial hair than Alexander, similar face and facial hair like Joe, somewhat similar build, but not as built as Joe is. His hair color is lighter. I think this points to my concerns I mentioned earlier in response to BastiatBlogger, ie., that a Joe is the type to have too many women chasing him down, so I’d be worried about competition, even though Alexandar has more fans. If I were single, I’d be pretty nervous around a Joe type…Whew!

  • INTJ

    Just took a look at myself. Damn I’ve really developed some muscle over the past few years.

    http://i46.tinypic.com/t9cbx1.jpg

    • @INTJ

      Hot body, dude. Love the chest hair —–> happy trail. Don’t ever wax it.

      Ah, just noticed this has already been said. Obviously a consensus 🙂

  • Darsh

    I like your music Ted. Reminds me a bit of Clawfinger. Where can I get more of it? 8)

  • Darsh

    😎

  • Iggles

    pvw – I’m with you on the Joe debate! Due to his muscles and overall attractiveness, a guy like him ranks to high on my SMV list to feel comfortable dating. (As I mentioned on the previous thread, SMV 9 males to “too high” and SMV 10 males are rarely straight! 😆 )

    Ion – LMAO at the Crying Game comparison! Jaye Davidson and Nathan Harden do look very similar!

    As much as I crushed on Hanson when I was 13, as an adult I find that men with feminine looks and girlie hairstyles repel me in the romantic sense! (Yes, as in magnets!)

    In general, the idea of dating a man with too much feminine energy (even if he presents a stereotypically masculine appearance) is a dealbreaker for me. And this is one area where alpha & beta have no bearing. It’s hard to put it into words exactly, but there is a balance that needs to be kept in check. Yin & yang. (Me = mostly feminine with some masculine aspects; Him = mostly masculine with some feminine aspects) If that balance between us is off, then we’d work better as friends than a couple. Pure and simple.

    Susan – I don’t think Jason Mraz and Orlando Bloom are in the same camp as your “time tested hotties”. Jason is more everyday guy, with beta sweetness. Out of all of the guys on this thread, he’s the type of guy I could see myself dating in real life! Whereas, Orly is “pretty” + thin but… eh, maybe it’s my hamster defending Orlando… 😐

  • VD

    Those women are incompatible with the rebel hipster’s values.

    Do you know, that’s why I never went out with Kate Beckinsale. She was incompatible with my values!

    The hipsters remind me of the goths. There were occasionally attractive goths on the scene in San Francisco, but they were very, very few and very far between. (I was not a goth, but a friend of mine from a band with whom I stayed there once or twice was.) I don’t think the hipsters are quite as genetically handicapped as the goths on average, but if you clean them up, bathe them, give them reasonable haircuts and dress them in normal clothes, their relative physical defects will be readily apparent.

    That’s the whole point of definitive style. It’s basically makeup with clothes and hairstyles.

    This discussion brings to mind another one of my top celebrity crushes. Brandon Boyd

    That’s three celebrity crushes, one actor, and one boyfriend who looks like an actor. I’m sensing a pattern here, Sassy. You appear to be drawn to fame and public performance. Be careful with that. I’ve known a few women with that tendency and they went through difficult times as a direct result.

    • Do you know, that’s why I never went out with Kate Beckinsale. She was incompatible with my values!

      Eh, all the groups you mention mate assortatively. In fact, they probably divide into subgroups in order to do so. Hipsters, gym rats, designer clothing wearing types, people who get implants.

      Here’s the highest status supermodel of a generation – (talk about wearing designer clothing!), with her beloved:

      km

  • Ion

    INTJ re pic:

    I know you didn’t ask, but first of all, niiice. 🙂

    And second of all, I think you definitely have a really classically masculine face (and strong jawline) with really nice lips, and, muscle is definitely the right direction. I think the stubble look on you with those glasses, def a turn on. I don’t think you need anymore facial hair than stubble.

    Now about the happy trail……. 😀 PLEASE never wax.

  • Iggles

    Wow it astounds me that INTJ and Cooper are having trouble finding girls. This SMP is truly out of wack, because not only are both of them great guys (and restricted guys to boot, which is a plus!), but they both have hawt bods 😀

    INTJ – Your build is the lean type I was talking about upthread. I wouldn’t lump you in as skinny, though you would look good with more muscle mass if you’re so inclined. Also, I think you have just the right about of body hair. (The waxed look is overrated. Men look sexy when they aren’t overly groomed!)

  • Sassy6519

    @ VD

    That’s three celebrity crushes, one actor, and one boyfriend who looks like an actor. I’m sensing a pattern here, Sassy. You appear to be drawn to fame and public performance. Be careful with that. I’ve known a few women with that tendency and they went through difficult times as a direct result.

    Yeah, I know.

    It’s not the fame that catches my eye though. It’s the good looks and the artistic nature of actors/musicians that gets me every time. I like artistic men. They are like catnip to me, but I haven’t had the best track record with dating them so far.

    Perhaps I should shift my focus to men who are less artsy.

  • J

    at one point, women weren’t entitled to diamonds, Kleinfield Bridal, and riding ponys

    We can haz dat now? Where you I sign up?

    FWIW, in the Ah-nold v.Harden debate, I pick Harden. My ideal though is dark and mesomorphic, but nor muscle-bound. My tastes in movie stars runs toward the young Pacino or De Niro, but I also think the young Paul Newman was something. More currently, I think Joseph Gordon-Levitt is adorable and am rather bizarrely attracted to Sacha Barton Cohen when he is out of character.

    • @J

      Love the young Al Pacino! Agree on JGL. Hugh Grant and Colin Firth apparently battled throughout the making of Bridget Jones to see who could get leaner. It suited Grant, though Firth was way too thin. He looked his best as Darcy in the 1996 BBC’s P&P (shivers).

  • J

    Looks like we’ve struck a nerve here. The male resentment towards Nathan Harden’s looks here is quite fascinating.

    Yeah, it is. There’s a lid for every pot, thank goodness.

  • Sassy6519
    • What’s that noise, you ask? It’s the sound of my ovaries exploding.

      LMAO, you’re not going to need them anyway.

  • J

    @OTC

    To make a long story short, I don’t see the girls in Harden’s anecdote as solipsistic simply because, reading between the lines, I rather doubt that they believe their own bullshit. IME with adolescents, who are after all just a few years younger than these girls, the girls know full well that they are being used. There is some, God forgive me for using the term, hamsterization going here. They are consoling themselves with the idea that they are “equal opportunity users” because it saves face.

    I’m reminded of the Karen Owens power point. Karen and her buddies knew that the jocks made fun of them behind their backs. Karen wrote the PP as payback; that was the big joke between her and her friends. They were going to “rate” the guys because they knew that the guys rated them.

  • J

    Thanks for the JGL pix. You may have just made DH’s weekend. (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.)

    The pix of Matthew Gray Gubler and the guy from All American Rejects give me hope for my scrawny-ass son, although I recently had to explain to a salesgirl that the boy is still a minor.

  • @SW
    It’s ironic, but the love-negative crowd has really only one bit of evidence that the hookup scene is any “good” at all. I recall this being lionized all over the left side of the WWW when the University of Minnesota published it back in 2009:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/4123109/full

    I’m not sure how a research expert who has a Doctorate of Science (but not human sexuality) and a Master’s in Public Health (but not mental health or psychology) can draw such a conclusion based on a 14-month nutrition Q&A survey distributed by mail. I wonder what the APA thought of this piece of work?

    It didn’t even conclude that “casual” was objectively equivalent in quality to monogamy. And what a limitation (NO long-term analysis of emotional health) to have to admit to. Yet it’s still held up as the “Holy Grail” for the other side, despite other pretty good research on the levels of dissatisfaction and depression associated with college social life…

  • J

    Alexander Skaarsgard ? Meh.

  • VD

    Perhaps I should shift my focus to men who are less artsy.

    I am a firm believer in the wisdom of trying something different if the usual habit is not working out well. It took a suicide for a friend of mine to finally stop dating crazy foreign strippers. He’s now married to a Fulbright Scholar.

    There is nothing intrinsically wrong with artsy. I may even qualify, technically, as I’ve been in a band that recorded two CDs and beat out Prince for a music award and have written eight books. But artsy doesn’t excuse poor behavior or immaturity.