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Why Women Make Drama

http://xkcd.com/1124/

Question:

Why is there so much drama in relationships?

1. Women are emo psycho bitches.

2. Women use drama to test and control men. 

3. Male behavior provokes a lot of female drama. 

4. Men and women don’t communicate very well.

5. Men fly into jealous rages.

6. It’s addictive.

7. It’s effective.

Answer: All of the above. 

 

Women like to have their emotions activated. We’d rather be wracked with uncertainty over a guy than bored. We’re raised on romantic and life scripts that feature conflict before resolution, adversity before triumph. We want life, and certainly mating, to be interesting. We want to compete with other women and win the male prize. We employ a wide variety of strategies to capture male interest and increase male investment, and one of them is Making Drama

Why do women Make Drama?

1. To quell uncertainty

For better or worse, women need to understand why. I don’t believe any woman in history has ever responded to “We’re done.” with “OK.” You dropped me without a word. Why? You were interested in me last week and now you’re hitting on someone new. Why? We want to know how you are feeling and why you are feeling that way. This is not necessarily fair, but we will often press very hard for answers to our questions. When we press too hard, we’re Making Drama.

Jared told Julia that he liked her. She’d been attracted to him for two years, so she was ecstatic. They made out and he texted throughout the week. The very next weekend, her roommate told her she’d seen Jared with a girl who was reportedly his girlfriend of two months. When Julia next saw him at a party, she downed a few beers, then marched up to Jared, demanding an apology and an explanation.

2. To seek reassurance

The nature of what women want – commitment – is variable while dating, and includes many stages. Even in a relationship, women wonder if they’ve got a “fake boyfriend,” i.e. glorified hookup, on their hands. There are constant questions about what kinds of expectations are appropriate. When do I meet his friends? Family? How many evenings per week will we spend together? How much “guy” time does he want? Why hasn’t he asked me to the formal, only a week away?

Women are perpetually aware that commitment in this era of delayed marriage is an amorphous thing, and it can be withdrawn at any moment by either party. As a result, we often feel the need to take the temperature of the relationship. Making Drama is not the best way of doing this, but it can be effective.

Katie and Rob had been dating for a couple of months. She knew he had a group of close friends, but he had never mentioned getting together with them, and she wondered whether he was purposely keeping her away from them. Katie stewed about this for several days, and decided she would bring it up if it continued. That weekend, Rob said he’d see her Friday because he was going to a party on Saturday with some other people. Katie burst into tears and accused Rob of not caring for her, and of being ashamed of her.

3. To enliven the relationship

Conflict and friction create drama, followed by denouement. It’s very common for one party to Make Drama when a relationship goes stale or stagnates. The denouement, of course, is makeup sex, which can often be so passionate that couples slip into the pattern of fighting just so they can have it. Unfortunately, the Law of Diminishing Returns applies here, and the relationship usually ends when the sex becomes a sordid, tawdry show between two people who can no longer stand one another.

After two years together, James and Margaret knew each other’s triggers. Whenever they went to parties or hung out in large groups, they usually wound up arguing. The night always ended with tearful shouting matches, followed by passionate sex, then cathartic cuddling.

4. To grab power

Women create drama in the form of shit tests to see if their partner is willing to lead, and to stand up to unreasonable requests. To acquiesce to her wishes is to fail the shit test. Women Make Drama looking for pushback from a male they perceive as weak. 

The nicer Kevin was to Addie, the brattier she was in return. He tried even harder to be understanding. Addie told her friends that Kevin had no backbone and dumped him.

5. To exact payback

Women look for ways to get even with men who dump them or otherwise treat them poorly. It might be anything from rubbing a guy’s nose in a new relationship to making a drunken, sobbing fool of ourselves in front of his friends. Women are rarely hampered by pride when hurt  - messy shows of emotion are common.

Courtney and Will used to date, and over winter break they’d hooked up again. Courtney thought it was back on, but when she saw Will the next night at the bar, he ignored her. She approached him and asked him why. When he told her he’d been so drunk he barely remembered the hookup, and that he regretted it, Courtney went and told their friends, who bought her several tequila shots. She wept and took comfort in the arms of Will’s buddy Gabe. Will responded with an outsized offense at the behavior of Courtney and Gabe, which was gratifying to Courtney.

6. To break up

When we don’t want to take responsibility for rejecting a man outright, we Make Drama to turn ourselves into Superbitch so that he’ll make it easy for us by initiating the breakup himself.

Kathy had found Tom so attractive when they first got together. But she’d been realizing recently that he wasn’t very bright – she’d been embarrassed for him on several occasions in their writing seminar. Now every word out of his mouth sounded like a stupid grunt. He was so gentle and devoted to her, she couldn’t bear to tell him it was over. Kathy got a little bitchy, and when Tom felt hurt and confused, she told him to leave her the f*ck alone! 

7. Because some of us really are psycho

Some women fight with other women, including physically. They throw drinks, get blackout all the time, make scenes with exes, yell and scream and generally Make Drama. Their friendships are volatile, as are their family relationships. The male who gets involved with one of these women will bear the brunt of her tendencies to Make Drama 24/7. (Note: It has been observed that these women are rarely without boyfriends.)

Kirsten parties hard every weekend. Last weekend she was tossed out of a bar for throwing a drink in a stranger’s face for “looking at me funny.” She’s got a loyal crew of girl followers, all of whom serve her. She’s always getting in and out of relationships, and when she fights with her boyfriends, she’s not above using physical violence. After dumping her last boyfriend, when he refused to drive over “her stuff,” she sent out pics of him naked to all their mutual friends.

Why do men provoke Drama?

Men are less likely to manufacture drama, and  they hate dealing with female drama with its complicated and messy emotions. However, they frequently provoke it in women, sometimes knowingly. Male-initiated drama most often serves the following purposes:

1. Expressing strong negative emotion

In an attempt to assuage sexual jealousy, they go on the attack, either toward their girlfriend, or their perceived male competition.

Mike saw Sally give her high school ex a big hug at the bar. He seethed with resentment at this show, which he knew was designed to make him mad. When Sally returned to his side, he ignored her. When she put her arm around his waist, he shouted, “Take your hands off me, you slut!”

2. Instilling doubt

To shore up wavering female attraction or commitment, men may attempt to create anxiety or jealousy in their mate. This serves as a form of ego reassurance for the male.

Thomas regularly flirted with girls in front of Lauren, touching them and making suggestive remarks. Lauren couldn’t understand why Thomas kept doing this even though he said he loved her. The worry that she was not enough for him  plagued her constantly, and crying scenes when they returned home were not unusual. Thomas enjoyed these scenes quite a bit, but Lauren soon left him for a guy who was less insecure.

3. Breaking up

Ending a relationship with no explanation or warning is a frequent male strategy, even though it most often leads to loud and unruly public scenes.

Mike was getting tired of Sarah, and he had an increasing desire to “get some strange.” He knew he should just tell her, but he dreaded that conversation, so he fizzled it and hoped to avoid her, ignoring her calls and their usual haunts.

In an era when relationships between young people are often guided by the Principle of Least Interest, and emotional entanglements are inconvenient, most people in their late teens and 20s have very limited experience communicating with a romantic partner. Relationship skills are lacking. Making drama is a shortcut to getting an answer or a desired result. It compromises the quality of relationships and increases turnover. It may be gratifying in the short-term but is almost always regrettable afterwards.

The Better Way

Whether you seek reassurance, information, something different from your partner, to express anger or any other strong emotion, or even to break up, having a civil conversation while sober is always the better way to go. 

1. State your position with calm certainty and take responsibility for your feelings.

2. Convey your security and confidence (even if you feel a little shaky). You deserve honesty and respect.

3. Practice putting your feelings out there. 

 

“It makes me feel crappy when you flirt with my friends.”

“I feel like we’ve gotten into a rut. Are you bored too?”

“I’ve enjoyed hanging out with you, but I don’t think we’re compatible. I don’t think we should see each other any more.”

“I do like you, but to be honest, a girl I’ve liked for a really long time just told me she feels the same way. I’m sorry I led you on, I didn’t see this coming. But I want to try and make it work with her. I’m sorry.”

I guarantee it will hurt less, and for a shorter period of time than it does when you’ve been rejected and disrespected. 

One word of warning:

Some guys will call you psycho just for making them uncomfortable, even if you’ve asked reasonable and direct questions. That’s a guy with very low self-awareness and personal responsibility. You dodged a bullet, so move on.

Some girls will act irrational no matter how honest and forthright you are. Be thankful you got out, and move on.

 

2 Pingbacks/Trackbacks

  • INTJ

    Great post.

    Especially this:

    1. State your position with calm certainty and take responsibility for your feelings.

    2. Convey your security and confidence (even if you feel a little shaky). You deserve honesty and respect.

    3. Practice putting your feelings out there.

    Some guys will call you psycho just for making them uncomfortable, even if you’ve asked reasonable and direct questions. That’s a guy with very low self-awareness and personal responsibility. You dodged a bullet, so move on.

    Players no how to sidestep drama, while good guys have a hard time dealing with it. By instead being honest and expecting honesty in return, you filter out the players while filtering in the good guys.

  • http://thepathtopassion.com Clay

    Susan,

    In a lot of the examples you posted, I see a lot of jumping to conclusions, where both men and women are taking incomplete data and assuming some kind of outcome where they are the victim.

    Both men and women could be a lot better off by stopping to realize how their own insecurities are filling in the blanks with their worst possible scenario (“I’m not enough!”).

    The advice you give at the end is, indeed, radically honest. I believe that there would be a lot less confusion and drama if more people would start communicating like that, however, I doubt that most people have the courage to express that kind of vulnerability and honesty.

    Thanks for the article. It is a great read.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Clay

      In a lot of the examples you posted, I see a lot of jumping to conclusions, where both men and women are taking incomplete data and assuming some kind of outcome where they are the victim.

      Both men and women could be a lot better off by stopping to realize how their own insecurities are filling in the blanks with their worst possible scenario (“I’m not enough!”).

      That’s a really good point about jumping to the wrong conclusions. Of course, this increases confusion, and I don’t think it’s uncommon after these burst of drama to discover the whole thing was a misunderstanding. For example, a guy might be delighted to introduce his girlfriend around, but somehow he’d gotten the impression she liked spending their time alone and appreciated having some independence.

      I’m not a particularly emotional female but I’ve definitely made my share of drama over the years (mostly before I married) and I think I’d painted a worst-case scenario in about 90% of the cases. I can recall what a revelation it was when I learned about Occam’s Razor!

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “1. Expressing strong negative emotion

    In an attempt to assuage sexual jealousy, they go on the attack, either toward their girlfriend, or their perceived male competition.”

    Before some idiot thinks this is a good idea.

    If its purposeful its more than enough reason to end the relationship.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If its purposeful its more than enough reason to end the relationship.

      Do you mean the girl hugging the ex or the guy yelling in anger?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Do you mean the girl hugging the ex or the guy yelling in anger?”

    I meant the girl hugging the ex for the purpose of creating jealousy.
    Hugging someone because its good to see them and to piss of your SO are radically different. Beyond that, my girlfriends were 3/4 virgins. Exes were never more than an abstract issue for me.

    I don’t typically yell so I honestly can’t say I understand the guys feeling very well. However, since he knew it was done to piss him off, I probably would have ended it.

    PS Just realized that you might have meant that he ‘thought’ he knew it was to piss him off. I read it more literally, some crazy out of body experience where he actually knew what she was thinking.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      In my mind (these are fictitious examples) she did not do it to piss him off but he assumed the worst. She was just warmly greeting someone from her ancient past. I think hugs are pretty normal in those circumstances, depending on the breakup.

      I actually do know one couple where the guy accused her of being a slut constantly, even though she was no such thing. He would accuse her of wanting men to look at her ass, for example. There was a big discrepancy in SMV there – and not infrequently they were approached in public by guys who would say, “You are way too hot for this dude.” and that kind of thing. He was what I would call sexy ugly and she was crazy about him, but he never could relax. When they broke up, he said, “I love you, but I’ll never be comfortable with you.” He broke her heart, it was really sad.

      • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

        @Lokland

        Also, for the record, I agree with you. Hugging an ex to make your bf jealous could be a dealbreaker, though I think you’d see some variance on this, especially among kids.

  • pvw

    @Susan:

    Women like to have their emotions activated. We’d rather be wracked with uncertainty over a guy than bored. We’re raised on romantic and life scripts that feature conflict before resolution, adversity before triumph. We want life, and certainly mating, to be interesting. We want to compete with other women and win the male prize. We employ a wide variety of strategies to capture male interest and increase male investment, and one of them is Making Drama.

    Me: Is this some type of feeler thing? It seems odd to me on the T spectrum…

    I’m sure everyone has experienced emotional drama and worry over all kinds of things. I can understand drama (and I experienced it) over real situations I (we) were dealing with. Handling them is enough as it is, but to manufacture drama where there isn’t any?

    I’m scratching my head on this one….

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      Handling them is enough as it is, but to manufacture drama where there isn’t any?

      I’m scratching my head on this one….

      It’s not that there isn’t any, exactly, because it comes from what’s going on in the person’s mind. As Clay pointed out, it’s usually rooted in erroneous assumptions or at least exaggeration.

      Bringing things to a head also brings relief from tension, one way or the other. I do think both sexes do it, women much more than men. I’m sure you’re right that MB predicts this behavior.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “In my mind (these are fictitious examples) she did not do it to piss him off but he assumed the worst. She was just warmly greeting someone from her ancient past. I think hugs are pretty normal in those circumstances, depending on the breakup.”

    Yeah in that situation the angry outburst isn’t realistic or healthy.
    Of course, there is always the possibility of misunderstanding but still a simple ‘I don’t like that’ should have been enough. If she cont’d to up the ante after that then it would be dump worthy.

  • Cooper

    I’m curious as to what the correct response to someone who is trying to win least interested.

    What is the correct way of dealing with someone who wishes to play hard to get?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What is the correct way of dealing with someone who wishes to play hard to get?

      I’m not sure there is a winning strategy there. You both wind up caring so little the whole thing fizzles. If you have reason to believe a girl is very interested even though she is playing hard to get, I would still not pursue. I think that in this SMP, there are very few guys who can get away with eager pursuit – it can only work if the woman perceives that the guy could have anyone but for some reason is bound and determined to have her. Fairy tale stuff.

  • Cooper

    “I think that in this SMP, there are very few guys who can get away with eager pursuit – it can only work if the woman perceives that the guy could have anyone but for some reason is bound and determined to have her. Fairy tale stuff.”

    Like me!! Hahaha. Don’t answer that.

    Why is so often fought for, if it almost always certain to fizzle any chemistry?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Why is so often fought for, if it almost always certain to fizzle any chemistry?

      I think it’s a holdover from a different SMP. In a time when most people dated and did so assortatively, with a pretty clear understanding of their own SMV, it was in a woman’s interest to hold out and give the impression she might be capable of doing just a bit better, thereby increasing the guy’s determination to win her.

      Of course, the most desirable women really were hard to get, and they generally went steady with men of similar attractiveness. That is no longer the case.

      I think male looks used to matter more. PUAs could never have thrived then because there wasn’t really a shortage of dominance among men, so people paired off primarily according to physical attractiveness. Obviously, status and wealth were attractors as well, but it used to be a lot easier to predict who would wind up with whom.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Why is so often fought for, if it almost always certain to fizzle any chemistry?

    College students have extremely fragile egos and are loathe to do anything to risk them.

  • pvw

    @Susan:

    It’s not that there isn’t any, exactly, because it comes from what’s going on in the person’s mind. As Clay pointed out, it’s usually rooted in erroneous assumptions or at least exaggeration.

    Me: I see, it is confusing because failing to communicate and thus fuming over internal drama is surprising to me where I am today; very fatal combination if it is present in a marriage. In a marriage, it seems to me to be a more immature way of dealing with issues, so when I hear of people who don’t do this, for example, and become resentful and passive aggressive, I wonder, what is going on in that marriage? Didn’t they make a successful transition from dating?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Pvw

      when I hear of people who don’t do this, for example, and become resentful and passive aggressive, I wonder, what is going on in that marriage?

      You’re right, it is definitely something that improves with maturity. The idea of making drama with my husband now is mortifying. I’ve overheard some stories like that though, usually at the gym or somewhere. I recall one woman had a fit because she told her husband precisely what expensive dark chocolates she wanted for Valentine’s Day (mail order only) and he didn’t come through. She was saying to her friend that he wouldn’t be getting sex for weeks. I’m happy to say I don’t know anyone personally with a dynamic like that. But based on her friend’s sympathetic response, I’m sure there are women like that, and they find one another.

  • Jonny

    I think a lot of the drama hides insecurities and wants that will never be requited. I wish all such drama is quickly resolved as shown from your examples, but the drama lasts a very long time.

    Many drama queens are not confrontational. They are passive agressive. They do things to indicate displeasure, but not say it outright.

    My own examples.

    1. She seldom cleans the house, but complains about how messy the place is. She could volunteer to do housework, but never gets around to doing it with her busy schedule.
    2. She says things are alright, but things are never alright.
    3. She doesn’t come home sometimes. Always late.
    4. She won’t receive your calls, but she is available to answer calls from her girlfriends.
    5. She is angry and frustrated. She can never resolve problems on their own. She will created new problems.
    6. She will say they will go to a event with you and never arrive. She will say things like “90% chance I will be late”, and its worst than late. She has other plans with girlfriends that manage to take longer than expected.
    7. She really does want to break up with you, but wants to let you down slowly by sabotaging the relationship so you’ll break up with her. You don’t know this. You have hope, but it is misplace hope. You don’t have a chance.
    8. You break up and don’t want to be friends. She still wants to be friends to keep her options open, but you don’t know that. She calls and stakes out her territory. She doesn’t tell you what she actually wants. She doesn’t apologize for treating you badly. You hang up since that’s the only thing that will keep you from losing your mind.

    There’s more, but I’ll stop here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jonny

      That’s a good point. All of that behavior is selfish and passive aggressive. I hope this describes an ex and not your current partner!

  • Mike M.

    Susan, I think you left out one cause.

    Some women make drama because they think they are supposed to. They’ve been soaked in a culture of half-witted romantic comedies and scripted “reality” TV that encourage them to believe their lives should have a lot of “drama”.

    The real world provides quite enough drama, thank you. And FWIW, I think a woman trying to snag high MMV gentleman needs to be low-drama. A stable home life is worth a lot to a man.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mike M.

      Some women make drama because they think they are supposed to. They’ve been soaked in a culture of half-witted romantic comedies and scripted “reality” TV that encourage them to believe their lives should have a lot of “drama”.

      That’s a great point, I didn’t even really think about the cultural effect aside from the fairy tale scripts. Reality TV has got to be the worst offender, showcasing people sitting around arguing indoors all the time.

      I think a woman trying to snag high MMV gentleman needs to be low-drama. A stable home life is worth a lot to a man.

      I agree that drama queens and their boyfriends tend toward short-term relationships. I can’t imagine that many men are looking for unpredictable emotional behavior in a life partner. My daughter has had a tendency to be a drama queen, and this is something that annoys my husband a great deal. He has little patience for it and has often made it clear that being overly emotional is self-indulgent and irresponsible. He’s of the “suck it up” school.

      I have to disagree about attractiveness, too. I’m convinced that Miss 1962 would be playing a long-term game. Looks counted…but so did potential and good character. Father/husband potential.

      It’s true, women did select for a wider range of traits 50 years ago. I think things did shake out fairly evenly in terms of looks, though. I read one account of the history of dating that described how it started with the most attractive couple on campus – say the quarterback and the head cheerleader – and filtered down from there. People learned their SMV through trial and error quite quickly because men were fairly proactive in asking for dates. Having a steady gf or bf was the highest status position before the Sexual Revolution, so people were happy to enter relationships quickly.

  • Mike M.

    Susan @15

    I have to disagree about attractiveness, too. I’m convinced that Miss 1962 would be playing a long-term game. Looks counted…but so did potential and good character. Father/husband potential.

    Her granddaughter, Miss 2012, is far more prone not to think beyond the moment.

  • Maggie

    @Susan
    ” She was saying to her friend that he wouldn’t be getting sex for weeks.”

    She shouldn’t be so sure about that, particularly when he starts working late at the office.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    I think a woman trying to snag high MMV gentleman needs to be low-drama. A stable home life is worth a lot to a man.

    I cannot think of a single instance where my current SO has EVER created drama.

    In fact, I can only ever think of one shit-test. Which I laughed at. Literally. I thought it was so funny I started laughing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      In fact, I can only ever think of one shit-test. Which I laughed at. Literally. I thought it was so funny I started laughing.

      Sounds like you passed with flying colors. :)

  • INTJ

    @ Maggie

    She shouldn’t be so sure about that, particularly when he starts working late at the office.

    ROFL.

  • BroHamlet

    @Susan

    Good post. Actions speak really loudly on both sides of the line. A man who knowingly plants the seed for unhealthy drama is an even bigger red flag than a woman- he should probably know better.

    @Cooper

    What is the correct way of dealing with someone who wishes to play hard to get?

    Find another one.

    Seriously, be “less interested” by default. A girl who’s interested will make it clear. Ask yourself why anyone’s time should come before your own. Truth is, most of what this boils down to is walking a line between interested enough to initiate, and willing to walk away without hesitation. Susan’s right- save eager for the things in life that are worth being eager to do. Chasing isn’t on that list.

    @Maggie:

    She shouldn’t be so sure about that, particularly when he starts working late at the office.

    Cosign INTJ. I believe this would be appropriate here. http://sadtrombone.com/

  • http://loveashley.net Ashley

    I used to be called an oversensitive psycho when I would get emotional. It didn’t matter if I was crying, yelling, or even laughing. I was “too emotional” and “psycho.” I decided to do an experiment. It took months for me to correct my behavior. Whenever there was an issue, I made it my business to be as emotionless as possible. After a year of doing this and I had an argument with one guy. I stated my case in a calm way while he paced around, yelling, and slamming doors. He still called me an overemotional psycho. I rested my case. Society paints women this way, no matter how they act. They could be as robotic as possible, but as soon as they confront a problem, they are typed as this.

    I wish I could say all this about drama was untrue, but I have to agree with most of it. I, myself, am a WHY ponderer. When things get too calm, we worry what could be right around the corner. We are so used to some kind of drama or issue in a relationship, that we don’t know what to do with ourselves when things are actually good, so we create new problems out of the need for the normalcy of drama. This is true of me when it comes to relationship, but I want nothing to do with family or friend drama. Outside of my relationships, I am more of a “go along to get along” person, probably to a fault. Not sure why I am so different when it comes to men.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ashley

      I stated my case in a calm way while he paced around, yelling, and slamming doors. He still called me an overemotional psycho. I rested my case. Society paints women this way, no matter how they act.

      It’s true – a while back I wrote about how the P word had replaced the B word. “Psycho” is the knee-jerk response from a lot of guys asked to explain their behavior. It’s the behavior of a jerk, though. If you’re calm and reasonable, calling you a psycho is obviously not rational.

      I admire your year-long experiment. It sounds like you got a good handle on your emotions and learned how to communicate more effectively.

  • Madelena

    @Ashley

    Your situation reminds me of a scene in Mad Men when Don accuses Rachel Menken of flying off the handle and leaving the meeting room at their first business meeting.
    She calmly reminds him that HE was the one who threw the hissy fit and left the room.

  • HanSolo

    Here’s another reason for drama, a UCLA study highlighted at Heartiste.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/i-love-him-i-love-him-not-239857.aspx

    At their most fertile period, these women are less likely to feel close to their mates and more likely to find fault with them than women mated to more sexually desirable men, the research shows.

    The researchers found that women mated to the less sexually attractive men were significantly more likely to find fault with their partners and, again, feel less close to their partners during the high-fertility period than the low-fertility period. Women who rated their mates as more sexually attractive, meanwhile, did not exhibit these changes and instead reported being more satisfied with their relationship at high fertility than at low fertility.

    The Roissy-betas have to alpha it up during ovulation and the Roissy-alphas beta it up during non-ovulation..

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Women who rated their mates as more sexually attractive, meanwhile, did not exhibit these changes and instead reported being more satisfied with their relationship at high fertility than at low fertility.

      Heartiste cracks me up with its constant claims of “science hearts Heartiste!” I don’t know who’s running the show anymore over there. The UCLA study confirms earlier research:

      “We found, as predicted, significantly more reported composite sexual desire with higher conception probability among mated women only. Unmated women exhibited no differences in composite sexual desire as a function of conception probability. This finding may help to explain why some studies have demonstrated an ovulatory peak in sexual desire whereas others have not, since prior studies have not analyzed mated and unmated women separately and thus may have had unknown and varying samples of women with respect to this dimension.

      Ovulatory Shifts in Female Sexual Desire

      Furthermore, women in healthy relationships do not experience increased attraction to other men:

      “This study demonstrated that mated women but not unmated women experience greatest sexual desire when most fertile. To our knowledge this effect had not been documented previously. The mated women in this study, nearly all of whom were highly committed to and satisfied with their partners, appeared to be pursuing an in-pair conceptive strategy. They experienced greater desire for their current partners and they did not experience elevated desire for other partners as conception probability increased. Conception probability interacted significantly with relationship length and relationship satisfaction to predict extrapair desires, as hypothesized. Taken together, these findings support the proposal that female sexual desire is an adaptation that contains several specific design features.”

      What we may say, and this is a big DUH as far as I am concerned, is that is your wife is unhappy in the marriage and finds you sexually unattractive, she’s going to fantasize about banging other guys when she ovulates.

      The lesson for men would appear to be twofold:

      1. Never marry a woman who isn’t chomping at the bit to get your zipper down.

      2. Don’t let her attraction wither by changing dramatically after marriage.

  • Cooper

    Re: psycho

    I was with a group a friends the other night, there was a few of us, and one of the guys’ Gfs has a new Asian roommate. She’s much more relationship oriented than any of my friends, just coming out of a quite a long relationship. And starting apparently accept date from some of her long time, Asian guy-friends.
    Anyways, while discussing her different dating preference, from theirs, they were using the word “psycho” quite a bit. But, thb I was in agreement with all the things she was saying, and thinking to myself how I’m going to be asking her out myself.
    (Differences such as: Whether or not the see themselves getting married before 30, opinions of being “official,” how serious to consider a date, whether or not to date multiple people.)

    It’s taken this girl a little while to clue into my difference from everyone, cause quite frankly I’m like to remain quite or only shake my head. Though, I think she’s made it easier, from me, to disagree on dating topics. (and agree with her)

    Maybe not the same use of “psycho” but that’s what they were using.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Let me see if I’ve got this right. Other women, mostly of an, ahem, unrestricted sociosexuality, were calling this relationship-oriented woman psycho? What a turnabout – the stable female with no drama is shamed by her slutty sisters.

  • Cooper

    “When things get too calm, we worry what could be right around the corner. We are so used to some kind of drama or issue in a relationship, that we don’t know what to do with ourselves when things are actually good, so we create new problems out of the need for the normalcy of drama.”

    What slightest bit of that isn’t psycho?

  • Cooper

    Sorry, but I’m not understanding the acceptance of ” making drama” when guys so clearly don’t like it; evident by our negative use of it.

    It’s like instilling dread, kind of. A guy flirting with other women, to have his work harder, is wrong. Cause it’s wrong to put someone through discomfort, or make them uncomfortable, for your own gain, right?

    Why is instilling drama any different?

    Guys generally don’t like it – it usually means we’re on thin ice or the situation is a shit test. (And as INTJ mentioned, players know how to deal with it the best anyways)
    So, why use it?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      Why is instilling drama any different?

      Guys generally don’t like it – it usually means we’re on thin ice or the situation is a shit test. (And as INTJ mentioned, players know how to deal with it the best anyways)
      So, why use it?

      Women don’t usually make drama as a strategy to get a guy to like her more. It’s usually a reflection of her own emotional turmoil. If a woman does deliberately make a scene, like “watch me flirt with my ex” or “let’s you and him fight” that is definitely a huge red flag and should be unacceptable to males.

      And don’t forget, a lot of times drama is the woman’s attempt to bring you closer, either by seeking reassurance and comfort, reigniting the sex, or trying to get you to respect her feelings. It’s a lousy form of communication, but that doesn’t mean the intent is always bad.

      By the way, instilling dread is a perfect example of male-instigated drama, as I said in the post. Using drama to threaten is bad for business. It can never produce a good outcome because you’re causing harm to someone else in order to boost your own status in the relationship.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Because that’s their emotional state at the time, Coop. Ain’t always a conscious decision.

    Here’s an example of “drama” in my current relationship. well, I think it qualifies, anyways. Keep in mind we’re long-distance.

    A few of our weekends together recently have been “her” focused. That’s fine. The one’s before were “me” focused, so that’s okay. Two weekends ago, though, turned out bad for whatever reason, and I got kind of upset with her. Not enough to flip shit, but enough to bring it up in conversation during Skype this week.

    This past Saturday, I was under the impression that we would be having an email discussion on the debates while she was at work. She had gotten busy and couldn’t email me, but didn’t even send so much as a “hey I’m busy email.” Her phone had died, so I didn’t hear from her after work, either. She has a stalker, so I was outright terrified and started texting her friend and brother to see if they had heard something from her.

    When it turns out she was okay and just didn’t send me an email, I flipped shit. As far as I was concerned, the relationship was already strained, and she had just stood me up. She, on the other hand, didn’t realize that I had set “email date” as an iron-clad plan, so as far as she knew I was going insane over something small, whereas on my end I was being pushed well past my limits of “tolerable” behavior.

    We have talked this through, but that would be some “drama” started by me.

    Now my coworker…her boyfriend is a little shaky on the relationship. So he saw a text she had sent to a friend, describing all the sexy guys she knows (as possible boyfriends, because her friend had broken up), he took it out of context and went CRAZY and went through her whole phone.

    That one is not so healthy, in my opinion.

    But that’s what the emotional state is dictating at the moment. At least in the men-folk

  • AcceptableBeta

    ”College students have extremely fragile egos and are loathe to do anything to risk them.”

    Not really. I do see guys acting like women’s friends, and I honestly believe most of these guys aren’t using the ”nice guy” tactic to get inside their panties, but I figure these guys realized that they can’t get sexual female attention so they settle for any type of positive attention.

    You see, the average-looking girls around here are all dating the guys whose parents are well-off(sports cars, trips to Brazil etc) and the good-looking ones are only interested in the most attractive guys.

    The below average girls are a downer, its not that pleasant to spend time with them because they are extremely jealous of the male attention the average-looking girls get.

    Trust me. I’ve used game on several below and average girls and I used it on girls who had been broadcasting signs of interest. But I was rejected by all of them. I’m not Brad Pitt, but there are also far uglier guys in my college(of course they aren’t getting any sex, but anywho) and I don’t hit on every attractive girl – I’d be spending more time on the campus than inside the classrooms.

    Do I have a fragile ego? Not really. I am confident. I know what I can achieve and what I can’t. I do display good-confidence around women, but talking to women eventually becomes tiresome because they assume I’m interested in them and the avoidance game begins just because I was nice. Then you read the works of roissy and he says being polite means you are a beta.

    Then you visit the MGTOW forums and they say even taking to a girl you are silently telling the girl you have low value.

    Do I want to have sex? Sure. Its hard to go to college. Most students(and by far) are very attractive young women who love to dres hot and to wear make-up(go straight to college as if they’ve just left their hairdresser’s salon) at 8 in the morning. But what’s the point?

    Game only works on women who are below average or barely average and it is a lot of work for it to be functionable. Besides, most of the guys who are PUA’(the ones who get sex) are tall, fit, well-dressed, have money, and have far more experience than me.

    If good-looking guys have to work their butts off to get laid with women who are lower than them in the SMP , then an average-looking guy stands no chance.

    Its fine. I’m going to bring on the porn train and study.

    By the way. All of the girls I asked on a date or tried to spend time one on one were from the restricted group. I’ve even given up on being near women because they begin to grow restless and nervous. This I also noticed with other women and other men. Unless the guy who was near her belonged to her social group, she’d grow scared as if the guy was a rapist waiting for an opening.

    And I’ve also given up on being near women in public. As in, a woman walks by me and she either stares instantly at the ground or pretends to be on her phone(her phone is turned off; I can see their screen sometines).

    I’m sure my average-looking body makes her feel uncomfortable, but I’m not doing anything wrong, nor am I staring or putting forth dominant body language. Nevertheless, I’m tired of this and I make it a point to avoid any contact with women if I must. When I do have to talk to girls in my classroom I don’t look at their eyes and I give short, direct answers to their questions.

    Maybe I’m a subject of conversation amongst them. Maybe they think I’m a creep. Doesn’t matter, really. I’m already assumed to be a creep, and at least by going at it via this I’m preventing myself from being sued for sexually harrasment because I had the audacity to talk to a woman.

    So mate, college guys(and High school guys) aren’t cowards. We don’t have low self-esteem. Nor are we owners of an ego that is so fragile, a girl avoiding our eyes sends us into bolts of depression. We are guys who don’t want to be beaten up by these girls boyfriends or beta orbiters.

    Do you understand it now?

  • A definite beta guy

    Man, I’d love to respond to that right now, but I gotta work!

    I get what you are saying. I’ll share my own thoughts later

  • AcceptableBeta

    ”Women like to have their emotions activated. We’d rather be wracked with uncertainty over a guy than bored. We’re raised on romantic and life scripts that feature conflict before resolution, adversity before triumph. We want life, and certainly mating, to be interesting. We want to compete with other women and win the male prize. We employ a wide variety of strategies to capture male interest and increase male investment, and one of them is Making Drama. ”

    Then what women want is not the resulting drama; they want the high value man.

    To have that man they have to compete with other women. Wouldn’t that make it that what results is the drama, the uncertainty of being able to get such a man, and women transform that self-doubt and magnify it to amazing heights.

    Shouldn’t the title then be: ”why do women make drama – because of their high value mate and because of their attempts to either get such a man in a relationship with them, or the tribulations in keeping such a man.”

    It sure would help out most beta males, women’s honestly, that is.

    I think I speak for most guys within my SMP value(beta) when I say that what we guys want is peace and quiet. Had women been honest with men about what they want, most guys would give up and dedicate themselves to their hobbies, which would leave women free to pursue the high quality man they want, and they would be saved from unwanted pursuit/attention from men who aren’t good-looking or possessors of high high status.

    The only way we’re going to get what we want – the means for most guys to go their own way, and the acceptance that women want the high SMP guy – is by helping each other out.

    I think I’m going to start helping women by printing some pamphlets concerning women’s tastes in men and what they want from men and I will put it on the walls of my college(when those places are deserted, obviously). If my work is admired and more is asked of me, I’ll recruit the few betas who have a clue and we’ll help out women acquire what they want.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I think that sometimes the drama is appropriate and proportional to the urgency of the situation, but in more extreme cases it needs to be seen as a form of violence or relational aggression. The problem is that men typically do not have (or want) access to many tools along this same social bandwidth, so they can be left on the defensive.

    I hate to say this because it risks being misunderstood, but IME the solution seem to be some strategic withholding of “emotional intimacy”, insofar as intimacy may be defined by the drama queen as the ability to drop the psychological-stability/upbeat personality facade of early courtship and to reveal true default behavior (this would be a perversion of real intimacy; it would simply mean that one party’s emotional stability is exploited, parasitically, by the other, less stable personality).

    One way or another, you basically want the person who acts this way to feel increasingly embarrassed and self-conscious about it, a bit like she had told an off-color joke to an audience and it had been met with stony silence. You don’t want the person to be conditioned to believe that this is an effective way to obtain things that she wants, to get attention, etc. , or to feel that this behavior is somehow a female entitlement. It should be seen as a Bad Thing that should be suppressed as a physical , perhaps an indicator of a troubled mind that may need counseling, pharmaceutical interventions, etc.

    For the record, men can be the emo drama queens in their relationships, too, so I don’t mean to engage in stereotypes.

    I remember taking an alpine-style mountaineering course when I was in the military, and the instructor—it could have been Mark Twight, I don’t remember—talked about a concept he called “Psycho Factor”. Basically the Psycho Factor that was appropriate to a given situation was calculated by taking the Urgency of the situation and dividing it by the Competence of the other person/people involved.

    So if a woman was walking along a cliff face that dropped 1,000 feet to a rocky, churning sea, in which a group of bull sharks was engaged in a violent feeding frenzy (high Urgency), and saw her 3-year child mindlessly playing on the very edge (low Competence), a high Psycho Factor would be appropriate and she could take wild, dramatic action.

    In a situation in which a brain surgeon (high Competence) has forgotten to get precisely the right type of chocolates for Valentine’s Day (low Urgency problem—non-life-threatening, to say the least), perhaps because his mind is preoccupied with legitimately high-consequence, Urgent matters (like saving patients’ lives), then a high Psycho Factor would not be appropriate to the situation, should be seen as a possible sign of a malignant personality disorder, etc.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      One way or another, you basically want the person who acts this way to feel increasingly embarrassed and self-conscious about it, a bit like she had told an off-color joke to an audience and it had been met with stony silence. You don’t want the person to be conditioned to believe that this is an effective way to obtain things that she wants, to get attention, etc. , or to feel that this behavior is somehow a female entitlement. It should be seen as a Bad Thing that should be suppressed as a physical , perhaps an indicator of a troubled mind that may need counseling, pharmaceutical interventions, etc.

      That’s a really important point – I didn’t even address the question of withholding positive reinforcement for this behavior, but you’re absolutely right. In fact, this behavior is also subject to the Law of Diminishing Returns – it becomes tiresome very quickly. While the ups and downs may produce some great sex in the short term, it’s not sustainable. However, I do think this is why women are threatened when a guy says his ex was psycho (but hot).

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Sorry, meant to say “suppressed as a physically unattractive trait would be”

  • Cooper

    @Susan

    Thank you for that clearification. Of course, I was assume it was intentional.

    Although, I don’t understand the attempt to bring a guy closer, to drama I usually move in one direction – away from it.

  • Maggie

    @BB
    “Basically the Psycho Factor that was appropriate to a given situation was calculated by taking the Urgency of the situation and dividing it by the Competence of the other person/people involved. ”

    This makes sense. It explains why we like and root for Carrie from Homeland. She’s Bi-Polar and always causing drama but its all about saving us from terrorists, never for selfish reasons. On the other end the drama queens from reality shows are repulsive.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “1. Never marry a woman who isn’t chomping at the bit to get your zipper down.”

    How does this really make sense?

    The normal extreme infatuation phase doesn’t last. I had seen it compared to being high on a drug.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “1. Never marry a woman who isn’t chomping at the bit to get your zipper down.”

      How does this really make sense?

      The normal extreme infatuation phase doesn’t last. I had seen it compared to being high on a drug.

      I don’t think finding your mate sexually attractive is restricted to the extreme infatuation phase. Your woman should absolutely still be crazy horny for you at the time of the wedding. Life, time, kids, etc. will all conspire to affect your sex life, but the spark should never go out.

      Any man who told me he was engaged, but his fiancee isn’t that into sex? I would say absolutely, do not do it. That’s going to become a trickle and then dry up in short order.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Maggie, absolutely, yes. A woman who goes a bit psycho to call attention to a genuine emergency situation that other people are not seeing is not creating drama for its own sake; she’s like the siren on a police car or fire truck.

    Re: reality show drama queens. I agree. Reality shows and some chick-lit porn frequently feature wealthy, high status men who are always available to manage dramatic situations (maybe they are ancient vampires, maybe they acquired the money through trust funds…in any case, the hapless men apparently have plenty of time to attend to social debacles created by other people) .

    In reality, these men probably became successful because they worked their asses off and detached themselves from many non-work related distractions. A typical example would be the investment banker who is still in the office at 11 PM, traveling constantly for work, etc.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Addie? This must be a “names of 2012″ post as well.

    I just had one of these experiences this past weekend with no. 5. There was a girl I was seeing in July/August, and it was nothing really more than sex. We’d meet up at night, as we had the same group of friends, and then go home together, with not much else. I think she eventually realized I wasn’t going to date her, and so she ended it. Even her best friend doesn’t blame me for doing anything wrong, because I never led the girl on. Since we have so many mutual friends, we were at the same birthday party this last Saturday. She acted at first as if she was fine, but then as the night wore on she kept going up to every single one of my friends and fawning all over them right in front of me (guys she’d never shown any interest in). I have to say, it did piss me off a little. Her best friend apologized to me for her and took her home, but we ended up at the same bar again last night and she did the same thing. It’s honestly really aggravating.

    That was actually one thing I loved about my ex. No drama whatsoever. We had one minor fight in 7 months of dating. PS, I still feel shitty about breaking up w/her. I checked in w/her this weekend to see if she was ok after Sandy (she lives in the Financial District), and asked if she needed anything. She thanked me for checking in but said it wasn’t a good idea for us to talk, which honestly made me feel worse because it seems she’s still not over it (it’s been 6 months).

    PPS not sure if you’ve seen this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6SSdvgrLJzs/T9TjmpnWD4I/AAAAAAAAA3I/fznTuMFY4zI/s1600/HIMYM___Hot_Crazy_Scale_by_JeremyX103.jpg

    It’s from How I Met Your Mother.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      I am actually close to an Adelaide and an Adelae, believe it or not. Both go by Addie. However, that story was made up, it doesn’t apply to either of the real women.

      Question for you – are you over that girl? I’m getting the distinct sense you have some unresolved feelings there. Not debilitating, but nagging at you just the same.

  • Ted D

    I can’t help but chuckle at this post. Not that it isn’t accurate or anything. But in my marriage *I* am the one that always wants to know WHY. I’ve been asking that question since I was a toddler, and unlike most people I never stopped. However I don’t try to create much drama around it, but it does happen on occasion.

    My wiring is so screwed up. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      My wiring is so screwed up.

      I know one guy in a friend group who is constantly making drama. He often winds up yelling at his gf at a party, storms outside to smoke a cigarette, etc. Everyone calls him a Drama Queen, which pisses him off. He defensively states, “That’s not true, I just have a lot of emotions.”

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Bastiat…I think I get what your instructor was talking about, but not sure why he called it “Psycho Factor”…it’s more of an immediate-need-to-take-action-even-if-it-means-preempting-someone-else factor. In the example, for instance, if the mother behaves in a truly high-drama factor, screaming at the kid as she runs, the kid might be so startled that he falls off the cliff.

  • Jason773

    ADBG,

    A few of our weekends together recently have been “her” focused. That’s fine. The one’s before were “me” focused, so that’s okay. Two weekends ago, though, turned out bad for whatever reason, and I got kind of upset with her. Not enough to flip shit, but enough to bring it up in conversation during Skype this week.

    This past Saturday, I was under the impression that we would be having an email discussion on the debates while she was at work. She had gotten busy and couldn’t email me, but didn’t even send so much as a “hey I’m busy email.” Her phone had died, so I didn’t hear from her after work, either. She has a stalker, so I was outright terrified and started texting her friend and brother to see if they had heard something from her.

    When it turns out she was okay and just didn’t send me an email, I flipped shit. As far as I was concerned, the relationship was already strained, and she had just stood me up. She, on the other hand, didn’t realize that I had set “email date” as an iron-clad plan, so as far as she knew I was going insane over something small, whereas on my end I was being pushed well past my limits of “tolerable” behavior.

    We have talked this through, but that would be some “drama” started by me.

    Dude, you sound like a 14yo girl. I’ve seen everything you did from girls I’ve been involved with.

    -I don’t even know what ‘her’ focused or ‘me’ focused even means.
    -Don’t skype with your chick, talk to her on the phone if you are going to engage with her.
    -Leave her alone at work. A few texts or emails throughout the day are fine, but your day shouldn’t be so boring that you freak out when you don’t get an email from her.
    -Don’t text her friend or brother. You probably seem emotionally unstable to them.

  • Ted D

    “Any man who told me he was engaged, but his fiancee isn’t that into sex? I would say absolutely, do not do it. That’s going to become a trickle and then dry up in short order.”

    THIS! Should have been a serious Red Flag before my first marriage. She was hot and heavy early on, but things started to taper off a bit coming up to the wedding. I just chalked it up to marriage jitters and stress, but that decline continued slowly until there was nothing left but a trickle. Well at least until I gave up even trying and our sex life completely died. Surely I was partly to blame, no doubt about it. But her fading interest should have got my attention, and instead I just assumed (NEVER assume!) it was “normal” behavior.

  • JP

    “I don’t think finding your mate sexually attractive is restricted to the extreme infatuation phase. Your woman should absolutely still be crazy horny for you at the time of the wedding.”

    Isn’t the wedding normally during the extreme infatuation phase?

  • Ted D

    JP – “Isn’t the wedding normally during the extreme infatuation phase?”

    Depends I suppose. I was with my current wife for over 2 years before we got married. My first wife and I were together a little over a year before the wedding day. I’ve known a few peolpe that were together for 5+ years before they got hitched.

  • Jason773

    Zach,

    I just had one of these experiences this past weekend with no. 5. There was a girl I was seeing in July/August, and it was nothing really more than sex. We’d meet up at night, as we had the same group of friends, and then go home together, with not much else. I think she eventually realized I wasn’t going to date her, and so she ended it. Even her best friend doesn’t blame me for doing anything wrong, because I never led the girl on. Since we have so many mutual friends, we were at the same birthday party this last Saturday. She acted at first as if she was fine, but then as the night wore on she kept going up to every single one of my friends and fawning all over them right in front of me (guys she’d never shown any interest in). I have to say, it did piss me off a little. Her best friend apologized to me for her and took her home, but we ended up at the same bar again last night and she did the same thing. It’s honestly really aggravating.

    I don’t see why this would piss you off though. You didn’t want to date her, so why care? I’ve been in that exact same situation, and I pretty much didn’t give two shits (which makes the girl see red and go even crazier). OTOH, if it was one of my two former gfs, I’d probably end up sticking a sickle in my friends eye who is reciprocating, but then again I couldn’t see my ex-gfs partaking in this type of behavior in the first place.

  • Zach

    @Jason, ABDG

    Second this completely. Email dates? Seriously? Forget about 14yo girl, you sound like the stereotype of clingy, needy girl of any age.

  • Zach

    @Jason

    It probably pissed me off because a couple of my friends and I are very competitive about women. It’s stupid, I know, but there are competitive “points” so to speak about having been the only one to hook up with that girl.

  • Cooper

    @Susan #43

    Indeed. It was coming from both guys and girls.

    It’s absolutely hilarious watching these two girls (roommate, one unrestricted, this new one quite not) discuss dating topics. They both says completely polar opposite things, in completely in-agreement tones – truly as if they think the other girl is agreeing, and not saying the opposite.

    Ex.
    Girl1: “my brother is planning a vacation with his gf – of only 6-months!”
    Girl2: “Aww, that’s really sweet.”
    Girl1: “hah, I know! It’s pathetic.”
    Me: O.o

    Girl1: “yeah, it’s so sad watching them. They spend nearly all their time together, and he’s constantly offering to do things for her.”
    Girl2: “hmmm :( I want a guy like that”
    Girl1: “tell me about it, he needs to break up with her. They’re going way to fast”
    Girl2: “Nnooo!”
    Me: o.O

    This occurred. And I was amazed that neither saw the ones difference, it was truly like they were in agreement about everything, judging by their tones.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      This occurred. And I was amazed that neither saw the ones difference, it was truly like they were in agreement about everything, judging by their tones.

      That cracked me up. I can’t explain it, that is just bizarre. Both talking and no one listening, I guess.

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “Dude, you sound like a 14yo girl. I’ve seen everything you did from girls I’ve been involved with.

    -I don’t even know what ‘her’ focused or ‘me’ focused even means.
    -Don’t skype with your chick, talk to her on the phone if you are going to engage with her.
    -Leave her alone at work. A few texts or emails throughout the day are fine, but your day shouldn’t be so boring that you freak out when you don’t get an email from her.
    -Don’t text her friend or brother. You probably seem emotionally unstable to them.”

    As someone else who has done long distance and had it succeed I think this response is mostly correct.

    I agree with the don’t text friends and family, especially over something minor. I did it once but that involved an army with guns changes in government, seems reasonable. She didn’t call me makes you sound like a nutcase.

    “-I don’t even know what ‘her’ focused or ‘me’ focused even means.”

    Also agreed.

    “Don’t skype with your chick, talk to her on the phone if you are going to engage with her.”

    This is bullshit. Skyping has very little to do with what a woman wants. I am the guy, I am the visual one.
    Beyond that, I don’t know how far apart you guys are but ours was a together once every 6 months deal for about 1.5 years with a 1500-2500 $ ticket in-between.
    We skyped every morning and evening for between 5-10 mins up to a couple hours occasionally.
    However beyond that we had no contact. No text, phone calls and I don’t go on social media for more than 30 seconds a day.

    I’d say in general though, texting constantly throughout the day is a waste of time. Its an uber DLV with little gain. What she ate for lunch or what she is doing right now atm are really not that interesting.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Re: no. 3. This pisses off every single guy I know. It’s honestly pretty easy to keep most men happy, so we don’t really understand why women have this need for excitement/drama all the time. If we’re having regular sex and not fighting, most of us are pretty happy. I know plenty of girls who won’t date even dominant, very good looking men unless the guy is toying with their emotions. Otherwise said guy is “boring”. Most of the guys I know, including myself, who are sick of being single are sick largely because we’re sick of the constant game playing that goes into dating. It’s not exciting, it’s exhausting.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      Re: no. 3. This pisses off every single guy I know. It’s honestly pretty easy to keep most men happy, so we don’t really understand why women have this need for excitement/drama all the time…It’s not exciting, it’s exhausting.

      Yeah, I don’t get it either. There are some women who are not happy unless they’re a little unhappy. They want the highs and lows. I guess this is what guys mean by high maintenance, a need for constant stimulation. Obviously a huge red flag for an LTR.

  • JP

    @Ted D:

    “Depends I suppose. I was with my current wife for over 2 years before we got married. My first wife and I were together a little over a year before the wedding day. I’ve known a few peolpe that were together for 5+ years before they got hitched.”

    Marriage is a funny thing because it seems to be so many things to so many people.

    It seems like no one knows why it’s there at this point.

  • Zach

    @Lokland

    $1500 ticket in between every 6 months? Were you on an oil rig?? I’m loathe even to date women who live in Brooklyn because it’s too far away. Not to say there aren’t great women in Brooklyn, but there are tens of thousands in Manhattan, and I’m sure I’ll love one of them, so why put the distance in between?

  • Cooper

    @Zach

    “It’s not exciting, it’s exhausting.”

    And we aren’t suppose to be eager to get out of the SMV – heh.

  • Cooper

    SMP*

  • Jason773

    Lokland,

    In referring to Skype, I’m speaking of ADGB’s situation specifically. He sees her every weekend, or most, from the sounds of it. They don’t need to be on skype if they want to talk or catch up.

    For a LDR it is different, but then again a LDR is a whole new can of worms that is 98% doomed to fail anyways.

  • tito

    all this makes the case against “rights” and “liberation.” it’s that simple. does this behavior uphold or destroy civilization?

    you guys know the answer.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ouch!
    Gentlemen, the issue at hand is two fold:
    1. She set up the “email date” idea
    2. She has a stalker

    I don’t pester her at work for emails, but if you say you are going to do something, I expect you to follow through, or at least spare a 2 minute email saying “hey, plans changed!” We email at work through most of the day anyways (I have an entire folder reserved for her), and I do not start drama if she does not send me messages. Oy.

    In the particular situation, she has already been failing my standards, and then she failed them again by not sparing the 2 minutes saying that plans changed. Which I would have been fine with, and she knows I would have been fine with.

    The second issue is that she HAS A STALKER. As in “filing a police report.” She is by herself with few friends in a small town. I do understand that people get busy, but even at her busiest I usually get messages from her. NO contact at all is worrisome.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I know one guy in a friend group who is constantly making drama. He often winds up yelling at his gf at a party, storms outside to smoke a cigarette, etc. Everyone calls him a Drama Queen, which pisses him off. He defensively states, “That’s not true, I just have a lot of emotions.”

    thankfully that isn’t something I deal with. I am unendingly curious about the why of things, but it very seldom causes real drama of any sort, mostly because I hate drama. The only times it does are when my ‘why’ isn’t answered honestly, or is dodged completely. THEN I get on the defensive and have to reign myself in. It’s tought because my wife likes to “cool off” awhile before discussing issues, and I very much want to get it all resolved at that moment. I’ve learned to be a little more patient, and she’s learned not to stew on stuff for more than a day or two at most.

    Mostly people that throw such tantrums strike me as being rather immature, not to say I haven’t done it a few times in my life. I do my best to keep that crap under control, but that wasn’t always easy in my teens and 20′s.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    You may be right. I very much enjoyed the girl’s personality and hanging out with her, but I actually wasn’t attracted enough to her to date her. That was the issue. And in 20/20 hindsight, issues like that get glossed over, especially given that most of my friends think she’s very attractive (she’s Jewish, and definitely Jewish-looking, which isn’t entirely my thing and I believe the reason for the differing opinions; most girls I know think she’s very pretty). So I gloss over the fact I wasn’t all that attracted to her physically and think “well if everyone else says she’s pretty, maybe I was wrong and I blew it”. There’s that, and as I mentioned in reply to Jason the competitiveness factor.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      So I gloss over the fact I wasn’t all that attracted to her physically and think “well if everyone else says she’s pretty, maybe I was wrong and I blew it”.

      OK, if she doesn’t turn you on physically I was clearly wrong about unresolved feelings. Sounds like you’re more in platonic friend or older brother mode in checking on her, perhaps a little motivated by guilt.

      This is an interesting example, though, of how guys can indeed be swayed by female status. I’ve seen it many times myself – and I’ve heard guys explain their desire for a girl by saying, “She’s the one that every guy wants to get with.” It’s another facet of intrasexual male competition.

  • AcceptableBeta

    @ Susan Walsh,

    I don’t see that many guys competing for the same girl. I don’t really see guys competing for girls, at all. There’s a set pyramid of sexual power between men, and although most men do find themselves attracted to cute/hot/perfect girls, most of these guys are never going to show their desire for the girls.

    Most of these guys known it is impossible because there’s always that one guy who is taller/fitter/has sparkling white teeth.

    I see a whole bunch of guys who could pass for attractive(but you know how hypergamy works) befriending whole groups of girls who are average/hot/super hot and they aren’t dating any of the girls, nor are they in a FWB with anyone.

    Think of it this way. Can the average man block Michael Jordan from putting the ball where its supposed to go to?

    Nope. So whats the point? The man who isn’t at least a 6 puts himself in great social danger by displaying his sexual interest in any woman. Say that you find yourself having pleasant conversations with a girl who is cute/quirky but nothing to write your parents about.

    She might have even gone as far as sending signals of interest for you.

    You ask her out. You are rejected. Doesn’t matter how nicely she put you down. Other girls are aware of your interest in that one girl, they’ve seen understood that you were turned down and you become the social outcast.

    In their minds you are of extreme low value. Every time a man is denied by a woman his ranking amongst women and men goes down. Women see you as having extreme low social value and the men see you as lame and weak.

    So what can a young man who happens to be a 5 do? Suck it up. Watch guys like Zach clean up. We eventually accept the fact that nice girls aren’t interested and bad girls would only sleep with us for our cash(when we become financially stable in our 30′s).

    ”desire for a girl by saying, “She’s the one that every guy wants to get with.” It’s another facet of intrasexual male competition.”

    I don’t agree. That’s mostly a female trait. Women are attracted to the same men other women are attracted. Mostly because the guy is either tall, fit, or has more social value than most guys surrounding the women.

    I speak in good terms with most guys I go to school with and I’ve befriended quite a few guys from other degrees. Most of them are enchanted with one girl: most of them aren’t developing crushes or massive sexual desire for one girl in particular just because 5 or 10 guys from their social group might be all over one girl.

    Speaking for myself, I am aware that some guys from my classes are interested in the same handful of girls. I see those girls everyday. I’m not that inclined. My eyes are more interested in that foreign student from Italy. Man, I wish I was the Italian Stallion to wife that girl up.

    Such is life.

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Haha, I checked on my ex-gf, who I was very attracted to but not quite as into her personality. This was another girl, post ex-gf, who I was more attracted to personality-wise but not as much physically. If only I could combine the two….

  • Zach

    @Acceptable Beta

    “Nope. So whats the point? The man who isn’t at least a 6 puts himself in great social danger by displaying his sexual interest in any woman. Say that you find yourself having pleasant conversations with a girl who is cute/quirky but nothing to write your parents about.”

    Largely agreed, but I hang out with a few guys who are of equal or maybe even slightly higher SMV than I am. There’s ferocious competition over girls. It’s not because other guys are into them, it’s because they’re cute/hot. I think you’ve got the causation backwards here. Men are into hot girls. Standards of beauty in the US are fairly consistent, IE most men agree on who the hot girls are. So a lot of men go after the same girl because she’s hot, not because a lot of other men are going after her. The competition is about who can get the most/hottest girls, and who can get them first. And there are clearly a set of girls who are more attractive than others, and that’s who we compete over. If we’re all at a bar, and there’s one girl who’s a 9 and the next best girls are 6′s, we’re all going to make a beeline for the 9, so we end up competing.

    You’re right, most guys don’t develop “crushes” per se on the same girls, but most guys want to bang the same girls. Romantic attraction and physical attraction are two different things.

    As for status and rejection, it’s not quite as bad as you put it. Even the best guys get shot down all the time. It does nothing to their status, because they don’t let it phase them. I come back to my friends all the time to talk about how badly the last girl shut me down, and we laugh about it, and they share stories of their own (at least the more secure ones do). The guy who gets shot down 9 times and ends up with a smoking hot girl on try 10 has far, far more status than the guy who tries 3 times and ends up with two 5s and one rejection.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    David—yeah, man, you are right: he meant “psycho” in a different way. It meant an intense, single-minded focus on an immediate, serious problem. Could mean yelling at everyone to stfu, possibly even physically manhandling someone to get him or her out of the way, but it never meant blind crazy panic. “Psycho” really meant aggressively taking control of the situation because there was an urgent problem that others were not competent to solve.

    IME, those extreme alpinist guys usually have binary personalities: they are glacially indifferent, easygoing, live-and-let-live, etc. one moment, then they can become charged up and maniacally intense the next.

  • modernguy

    Women make drama because they love drama, QED. But you missed an opportunity to tell us what really matters:

    Women love the state of the SMP as it is because it creates drama. Despite all your lip service to traditional relationship structures and eventually monogamy, you know well enough yourself that women are having the times of their lives now. And men are too – at least the ones at the top are.

    The only problem is that when these women mature and start looking for a husband the guys who are finally coming into their own in their late 20s and 30s start to balk at marrying an aging slut. Still, there’s hope, there’s always some beta pathetic enough to bury his self respect far down enough that it won’t come up until he’s in the hospital and the baby coming out looks a little too dark to be his.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      Cue the same old tired ‘sphere tropes. If I thought women were having the time of their lives, I wouldn’t waste my time telling them to stop. I started a blog for unhappy women on the sidelines of the SMP. Women in the 6-9 SMV range.

      Honestly, I can’t imagine why you even read here much less comment. Maybe it’s like my Gramps, who always read the New York Times just to see what the enemy was up to.

  • Escoffier

    my girl is zero drama, always has been.

  • J

    Heartiste cracks me up with its constant claims of “science hearts Heartiste.

    IKR? It cracks me up when a real scientist comments and explains how and why Heartiste is misunderstanding a particular study.

  • AcceptableBeta

    ”Women in the 6-9 SMV range. ”

    I don’t know of that many girls in the 5 and below 5 range dating that much(at least in relationships). Are they satisfied with trying a shot at the 6 and above men or are girls 5 and below less sexually driven and looking more into studying, acquiring a degree and then finding a guy in their 30′s?

    ”Women love the state of the SMP as it is because it creates drama. Despite all your lip service to traditional relationship structures and eventually monogamy, you know well enough yourself that women are having the times of their lives now. And men are too – at least the ones at the top are”

    Could be. Had a shy cute girl send a lot of signals of interest my way, but when I asked her out she said no. 10 minutes later she’s talking to one of her girlfriends about that one time she had a discussion with somone she very much loved, and how it is particular to her personality how she sometimes says things she doesn’t mean to say. She blushed when I looked at her.

    Maybe embarrased, maybe she’s trying to play games. Dunno. I next monday I have a class with her. I won’t even bother looking at her. I will greet her back IF she decides to say hi to me. But that’s it.

    It kinda stings when you think the girl is into you but turns out she was sending signals of interest to receive an ego-boost, it seems.

    Yeah, Zach. I see your point. Maybe average guys should consider letting go of average-looking girls and moving on to hotter pastures. The chances of being turned down are as bad or worse, but the rejection doesn’t sting so much because you know that in terms of appearances, the girls at least had a motive to reject you.

    (by ”you” I mean us, the average guys)

  • Emily

    >> “They both says completely polar opposite things, in completely in-agreement tones – truly as if they think the other girl is agreeing, and not saying the opposite.”

    Oooooooh they know very well that they’re in disagreement. The polite tones are just a female politics thing.

    >> “Let me see if I’ve got this right. Other women, mostly of an, ahem, unrestricted sociosexuality, were calling this relationship-oriented woman psycho? What a turnabout – the stable female with no drama is shamed by her slutty sisters.”

    Scenes like the one that Cooper described aren’t uncommon AT ALL. (Believe me, I’ve been there.) This is one of the main reasons why traditional/low-N girls are often so hard to spot. They’ve basically been shamed out of displaying any good girl “tells”.

    I’d say that virgin-shaming is more common than slut-shaming these days. This is definitely true in the city that Cooper’s living in.

  • Zach

    @Acceptable Beta

    No, just don’t take rejection so personally. I don’t hit on supermodels because I’m not in their league. And I get rejected by girls worse-looking than me all the time. I just don’t take it personally. Maybe their cat died, maybe their friend just had a bad breakup and men are the enemy, maybe they don’t like white guys, who knows?? Hearing a “no” or a brush off from a girl isn’t the end of life. Believe it or not, the vast majority of women are pretty nice in their rejections, even today. I’d honestly say this mindset is the biggest differentiator between men who have success with women and those who don’t. The guy who hits on 10 girls and gets 2 dates has 2 dates. The guy who hits on none has none. And in terms of status, status really comes from being confident and being able to keep your cool with women. No one that I know of looks down on a guy who gets rejected by girls. It happens to EVERYONE. I guarantee Brad Pitt has been rejected before. We look down on the guys who are bumbling, supplicating, nervous-ticking around women. We make fun of the guys who are too nervous to approach a girl far, far more than the guy who sacks up, does it, gets rejected, then gets back up and goes again.

  • JP

    “I’d say that virgin-shaming is more common than slut-shaming these days. This is definitely true in the city that Cooper’s living in.”

    Isn’t that kind of like shaming the average citizen because he doesn’t engage in murder?

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    PPS not sure if you’ve seen this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6SSdvgrLJzs/T9TjmpnWD4I/AAAAAAAAA3I/fznTuMFY4zI/s1600/HIMYM___Hot_Crazy_Scale_by_JeremyX103.jpg

    It’s from How I Met Your Mother.

    Hmm. I think the graph needs a nonzero y-intercept. I wouldn’t want a girl who’s a 1 in looks, no matter how un-psycho she is. It also needs a vertical asymptote. Beyond a certain level of psychoness, I don’t care how hot she is, I wouldn’t be interested.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I know one guy in a friend group who is constantly making drama. He often winds up yelling at his gf at a party, storms outside to smoke a cigarette, etc. Everyone calls him a Drama Queen, which pisses him off. He defensively states, “That’s not true, I just have a lot of emotions.”

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsistentTerminology

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    INTJ…”Hmm. I think the graph needs a nonzero y-intercept. I wouldn’t want a girl who’s a 1 in looks, no matter how un-psycho she is. ”

    High-school algebra teachers could have some real fun with this one; wake up some of the kids sleeping in the back row.

  • Cooper

    ” This is definitely true in the city that Cooper’s living in.”

    Ssssh. :)

    “They’ve basically been shamed out of displaying any good girl “tells”.”

    I have found this very common, as well with myself. It’s why I shut up so much, because my stance, with low experience, is touted as invalid or uncredited when up against unrestricted folks.

    I’ve been shamed out of saying I want a serious relationship, before. I haven’t had a relationship before, so unrestricted people say my first relationship should NOT be serious. (The word psycho does come to mind)

    I get told things like “you just don’t know any better, yet.”

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “I’ve been shamed out of saying I want a serious relationship, before. I haven’t had a relationship before, so unrestricted people say my first relationship should NOT be serious. (The word psycho does come to mind)

    I get told things like “you just don’t know any better, yet.”

    Yep. I’ve seen this in action many times, and been on the receiving end of it a few myself. But I’m not so sure all of the folks doing the shaming are unrestricted necessarly. Sheeple perhaps, but I’m not so sure all of them are truly unrestricted.

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    Having given the survey results showing that the hookup culture doesn’t exist…has this website got much of a future? (confused, but optimistic)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mosquito

      Having given the survey results showing that the hookup culture doesn’t exist…has this website got much of a future? (confused, but optimistic)

      Not sure what you mean?

  • Emily

    >> “I’ve been shamed out of saying I want a serious relationship, before. I haven’t had a relationship before, so unrestricted people say my first relationship should NOT be serious. (The word psycho does come to mind)”

    Yeah, I know a few people who think I’m crazy/desperate because I want marriage and babies. As in, expressing the desire to get married EVER is considered crazy.

    >> “But I’m not so sure all of the folks doing the shaming are unrestricted necessarly. Sheeple perhaps, but I’m not so sure all of them are truly unrestricted.”

    +1. I think the shaming originally comes from the unrestricted people, but then a lot of restricted people end up joining in so they can fit in with “the herd”.

  • Cooper

    “Sheeple perhaps, but I’m not so sure all of them are truly unrestricted.”

    Yes, I was going to note that. It’s generally much more acceptable, for youth, to shame monogamy (or, like you say, go along with it) than to endorse it.

    “Yeah, I know a few people who think I’m crazy/desperate because I want marriage and babies. As in, expressing the desire to get married EVER is considered crazy.”

    And your a girl, who’s supposed to want those things! Expressing those things as a guy is more likely to have you called Gay than psycho.

  • Cooper

    @Emily
    You could probably guess what street I live on. (DT, D.st – yup!)

  • JP

    “And your a girl, who’s supposed to want those things! Expressing those things as a guy is more likely to have you called Gay than psycho.”

    Alternately, it results in a wife and kids.

  • HanSolo

    I want babies and am proud of it.

  • Ted D

    Emily – “I think the shaming originally comes from the unrestricted people, but then a lot of restricted people end up joining in so they can fit in with “the herd”.”

    Well that makes perfect sense. How else are the alpha cads going to get in the good girls pants unless she feels shamed into wanting more? How else are super-promiscuous women going to “feel better” about their choices if her friends look down on her for them?

    In many ways society often lets the worst people drive the bus. I think in the past it was simple inaction on the part of moral folks in the name of “anti-shaming” Politcally Correct BS. Now? I think we’ve gone so far down that road that it is just the norm. The few folks left pointing out that it stinks are labelled “physco” or “nuts” or “clingy”, etc.

    The inmates are running the asylum.

  • Emily

    >> “You could probably guess what street I live on. (DT, D.st – yup!)”

    Ooooh I know!!!!! You probably wouldn’t appreciate it if I typed it out though. :P I’m a bit jealous. I almost wonder if the terrible dating scene is like karmic payback for getting to live in such a gorgeous city.

  • HanSolo

    Fuck the baby shamers. And I mean literally. They lose all LTR potential for me and get thrown onto the fling “ladder”. I certainly believe they have the right to not want kids but they lose all LTR value for me since I want babies, just as I would in their eyes, I assume. I’ve been surprised how many women I’ve met that say they don’t want kids. I internally roll my eyes and think they must not love their genes enough. That’s my visceral reaction because I logically can understand that some people just don’t want kids for whatever reasons but I have to think very logically to put myself in their shoes since my gut reaction is to want kids.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – “I’ve been surprised how many women I’ve met that say they don’t want kids. ”

    See my comment above about sheeple. I think many, many young women (and men) have been sold a bill of rotten goods regarding family life. I defend anyone’s choice not to have children for logical reasons, but often those comments don’t come from logic. They are often fueled by “breeder” contempt and the equally rediculous desire to leave behind some “oppressive roles” from the past.

    I’d love to revisit these same folks in 10 or 15 years and see how many change their minds, or even worse, find themselves regretting the choice to settle down and have a family when they had the chance.

  • VD

    It’s absolutely hilarious watching these two girls (roommate, one unrestricted, this new one quite not) discuss dating topics. They both says completely polar opposite things, in completely in-agreement tones – truly as if they think the other girl is agreeing, and not saying the opposite.

    This was pretty much the entire basis of the so-called humor in the movie Bridesmaids. It was kind of funny the first two or three times. The subsequent 947 times, not so much.

    Both talking and no one listening, I guess.

    I interpret it as a passive-aggressive means of arguing. One woman in particular used to do this to me; I asked her husband if she was simply that clueless or if she was disagreeing. He laughed and said it was definitely the latter.

    Maybe embarrased, maybe she’s trying to play games. Dunno. I next monday I have a class with her. I won’t even bother looking at her. I will greet her back IF she decides to say hi to me. But that’s it.

    Dude, this is what keeps you down. It doesn’t matter what she does. Don’t be reactive. Be proactive. Just walk up to her and say, firmly, “let’s do X on Friday”. If she hems and haws or makes excuses, then blow her off, and without any bitchy, “clever” remarks meant to wound her. Just say, “hey, no problem”.

    No, just don’t take rejection so personally.

    Precisely. Repeat after me: there are plenty of girls on the girl tree. There are PLENTY of GIRLS on THE GIRL TREE. They make new ones EVERY SINGLE DAY.

  • pvw

    @HanSolo:

    I’ve been surprised how many women I’ve met that say they don’t want kids. I internally roll my eyes and think they must not love their genes enough. That’s my visceral reaction because I logically can understand that some people just don’t want kids for whatever reasons but I have to think very logically to put myself in their shoes since my gut reaction is to want kids.

    me: Some might actually feel that way. Or, because for women in a certain age group, ie., in their 20s, it is seen as inappropriate to say they want children. They are supposed to say they want careers, adventure, etc., as though they can’t have both in a marriage with children….In addition, as Emily mentioned, they don’t want to seen as psycho, clingy, old fashioned, etc. So to avoid negative judgment, they say they don’t want them. So you know, to actually go on a date with a man and talk about your long term hopes and plans is so ridiculous…In case you don’t realize, I’m rolling my eyes here…..

  • VD

    It cracks me up when a real scientist comments and explains how and why Heartiste is misunderstanding a particular study.

    It’s all fun and games until Roissy fucks his girlfriend…. But more to the point, real scientists don’t do social science, for the obvious reason that statistical surveys are not real science. As strange as it may sound, the Game community is demonstrably more scientific than the academic “scientists”.

  • Lokland

    @VD

    “Precisely. Repeat after me: there are plenty of girls on the girl tree. There are PLENTY of GIRLS on THE GIRL TREE. They make new ones EVERY SINGLE DAY.”

    Comment of the day.

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    The Game community is about getting sex from women. Any idea that doesn’t work is OUT. There is no agenda beyond what works (is true)…and that’s science in action. Let the horny guys be your guide, not the gender deformed feminists…Choose game, choose reality (however depressing)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Any idea that doesn’t work is OUT. There is no agenda beyond what works (is true)…and that’s science in action. Let the horny guys be your guide, not the gender deformed feminists…Choose game, choose reality (however depressing)

      An interesting endorsement. I do think you took a wrong turn somewhere on the way to a PUA blog, though.

  • Emily

    >> “Fuck the baby shamers.”

    Hear, hear!!!! :D

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    I’m not a fan of sheeple who can’t think for themselves and don’t have the courage to march to their own drum. Any woman who wants kids someday but is afraid of being seen as psycho, clingy, or old fashioned is probably dating the wrong men or needs to unplug from the flock a bit.

  • HanSolo

    @Emily

    +1

    Come on sheeple, unplug from the flock matrix and be true to who you are.

  • Cooper

    @Emily
    “I almost wonder if the terrible dating scene is like karmic payback for getting to live in such a gorgeous city.”

    Lol, could be. It does get better as you get farther from DT, albiet ever so slightly. This something I explained to Susan, recently. Living in the city sends my preselection off the charts, while outside the city.

    @HanSolo
    “I internally roll my eyes and think they must not love their genes enough.”

    I usually think ‘Evo-fail,’ IIRC was what Mystery used to say in regards to not having children.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    ,blockquote>So you know, to actually go on a date with a man and talk about your long term hopes and plans is so ridiculous

    I’d call that sad, not ridiculous. My favorite dates have been where we feel a real connection and can open up about meaningful things. I remember once on a first date sitting on the foot bridge over the Charles River near Harvard Business School, dangling our feet high above the water and cuddling and talking about life and what was meaningful. I told her how I had once almost drowned a few months before and how that affected my perspective on life and really being true to what is most important to you. She literally melted and we started making out. It wasn’t just a connection of lips and flesh. There was a real, nascent connection of the soul.

  • Emily

    >> ” It does get better as you get farther from DT, albiet ever so slightly.”

    That’s good to hear. I only ever lived on campus, so I wouldn’t know. I LOVED my uni years, but half of the population is straight out of the “College Liberal” meme. : P As far as dating goes, it’s probably at least as bad as downtown.

  • HanSolo

    @pvw

    I should specify that I was rolling my eyes about the women who never wanted kid, not the ones who just didn’t want them in the near or medium future.

  • Tasmin

    The only time I encountered drama was when I was dating a woman a few years back who had an unbelievable aptitude for getting herself into situations, be it in the physical world or in her emotional free associations. It was a kind of self-inflicted drama; drama that is the result of some strange inability to insulate herself from the black holes around her, to create appropriate boundaries, and to make decisions that resulted in any kind of linear progression. Just a lovely woman blind to the underlying motivations of others, the mechanics of the society around her and the darkness that lurks.

    At first I found her blind trust, openness and optimistic outlook to be endearing, but after repeatedly having to step in after she happily tread down life’s dark alleys or cushion the emotional mania that those realities would bring, I found her naiveté to be just too much. She never “created” drama consciously or directed it at anyone else, and didn’t have a mean bone in her body, but there was something going on and I got the sense it was not going to go away no matter what I could offer to shore it all up.

    Sure enough, over the course of three years she has moved 5x, changed jobs 4x, been stalked by one of her creepy yoga buddies, been played by at least one major Dbag, went broke (again), got two of those boot things on her car, etc. And has called me crying at least once a year since we split. She is one of the most beautiful, loving people I have ever met, but she scares the shit out of me.

    There is a whole category of drama that comes from people not being able to keep their shit squared away. Most guys I know, especially the ones my age, smell drama and run like hell. Sure, maybe after a few rolls, but they’ll never make room in the sock drawer for them.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      they’ll never make room in the sock drawer for them.

      That’s a new one, I like it.

  • Lokland

    @Zach

    “$1500 ticket in between every 6 months? Were you on an oil rig?? I’m loathe even to date women who live in Brooklyn because it’s too far away. Not to say there aren’t great women in Brooklyn, but there are tens of thousands in Manhattan, and I’m sure I’ll love one of them, so why put the distance in between?”

    I only flew direct. Polar opposite sides of the planet. We’d been together 2 years. I thought about breaking it off and couldn’t.

    “In referring to Skype, I’m speaking of ADGB’s situation specifically. He sees her every weekend, or most, from the sounds of it. They don’t need to be on skype if they want to talk or catch up.”

    Good point.

    “For a LDR it is different, but then again a LDR is a whole new can of worms that is 98% doomed to fail anyways.”

    Actually, they’re working more often then they used to.
    I suspect they tend to work much better for introverts than extroverts.

    @ADBG

    “Gentlemen, the issue at hand is two fold:
    1. She set up the “email date” idea
    2. She has a stalker”

    1. You have every right to be pissed off. Happened to me once, I rarely yell but that time I did. However it could have waited for later.

    2. You honestly think her stalker who EVERYBODY knows about is going to kidnap her? Thats like an introductory textbook definition of stupid.

    Beyond that, how you felt is irrelevant. How you appear, remember no one else was freaking out, is more important to her/them.

    I say that as someone who did the same thing when I was 19.

  • Cooper

    “half of the population is straight out of the “College Liberal” meme. : P As far as dating goes, it’s probably at least as bad as downtown.”

    Mmmmhmmm.

  • Tasmin

    @Cooper
    “I have found this very common, as well with myself. It’s why I shut up so much, because my stance, with low experience, is touted as invalid or uncredited when up against unrestricted folks.”

    Same here. It gets me fired up. The fact that the culture of the SMP has shamed the views that actually lead to what most people really want in favor of the vulgar, vapid, and sexualized perspective makes it that much harder for the 80% to find common ground.

    Some of my single guy friends have quite High N, are perhaps unrestricted and are arguably players but for the fact that they really do “look” for and enter into LTR’s. Its just that they enjoy the hell out of their status and their selection “process” which favors them in so many ways. I’ve been chided about my preferences (“you just want some puritanical girl”) and my views about the SMP and relationships are regularly discounted due to my restricted preferences and corresponding behavior in the field. Now these guys are squarely in that 20% so their views are top-down, but still, the fact that it even gets framed as “puritanical” because I don’t have first date sex – or want a woman who does, can really feel isolating and frustrating in an already screwed up SMP.

    I’ve seen the virgin shaming thing at work too. I’ve spoken up a few times when this tone has come up but the looks I get from the women are not so encouraging so now I just let it be. Feels like there is deep-rooted ideology at work and my words will do nothing other than move me further into the fringe. Its like the 80% knows that Stalin is bad, but the party-line continues lest they find themselves banished to the relationship gulag. Never mind the fact that towing the line and hooking up is a sisyphean gulag of its own design – with all kinds of prices to pay, be it immediately (STD, P&D, low satisfaction) and/or eventually (bitterness, resentment, infertility, collection of calico companions.) Yet they keep pushing that stone…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The fact that the culture of the SMP has shamed the views that actually lead to what most people really want in favor of the vulgar, vapid, and sexualized perspective makes it that much harder for the 80% to find common ground.

      Amen.

  • modernguy

    Susan, 6-9s are exactly the girls hitting the clubs every weekend to get their ego boost and gossip on and changing boyfriends every six months. Despite their complaing they love this lifestyle, and they like complaining about it too.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @modernguy

      Susan, 6-9s are exactly the girls hitting the clubs every weekend to get their ego boost and gossip on and changing boyfriends every six months. Despite their complaing they love this lifestyle, and they like complaining about it too.

      That is certainly true of some women, not true of others, in my experience. Here’s an interesting thought experiment.

      Take the city you live in.

      Find the population of single women aged 21-30.

      Figure out the capacity of all bars and clubs in your city, and divide it in half.

      What percentage of the single female 20-something population can fit in the city’s clubs on any given night? Or even in one week?

  • JP

    @Tasmin:

    ” Never mind the fact that towing the line and hooking up is a sisyphean gulag of its own design – with all kinds of prices to pay, be it immediately (STD, P&D, low satisfaction) and/or eventually (bitterness, resentment, infertility, collection of calico companions.)”

    This is because people are often collectively stupid.

    See the housing bubble for another example.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Lok,

    Yep. I overreacted. That’s why I am putting the example here. I am “Mr. Mellow” in my office, but I had an emotional limit, it was pushed, and I reacted in a less-than-ideal fashion.

    Everyone’s got limits, no one is perfect, etc.

    If you want an extreme over-reaction, that’s why I posted the other guy’s story, when he went through his girlfriend’s entire cell phone because he didn’t like a text she sent.

    I also resent the idea that Jason and Zach are referring to me as a 14 year old girl, mostly because I remember dating a 14 year old girl, and that was MAJOR drama at the drop of a hat. I also know girls that proudly state that they make their boyfriends intentionally jealous all the time (had one do it just today!) and declare that guys should feel lucky girls go “drama” on them, because it means they “love” us.

    But I know I definitely fucked up.

  • http://Marellus.wordpress.com Marellus

    Testing

  • SayWhaat

    Fuck the baby shamers.

    Use protection or they’ll hunt you.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper, Tasmin

    It’s not the unrestricted 20% that annoy me. What really annoys me is the majority of the restricted 80% that insists on white-knighting for the unrestricted 20% or even looking up to the unrestricted 20%.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “Figure out the capacity of all bars and clubs in your city, and divide it in half.

    What percentage of the single female 20-something population can fit in the city’s clubs on any given night? Or even in one week?”

    LOL. that might not work for the Burgh. I remember reading somewhere back in the 90′s that one or two suburbs of Pittsburgh had the most bars per population in the country.

    There are areas of the city where they NO LONGER give out liquor licenses (in PA you must have a license to sell any kind of booze, beer included) because there are far too many bars in the neighborhood. The South Side of Pittsburgh has more bars than actual store fronts on main street.

    The Burgh is a model example of a working class drinking town. Not to mention we have U of Pitt, Penn State, CMU, UPMC, Robert Morris, an a whole host of other technical schools. Now that winter is coming (Can’t wait for Game of Thrones to come back!) the drinking will slow down a little, but when its warm out there are areas where the cops just stand around waiting to catch people walking drunkenly into traffic.

    I suspect there are more than enough bars within the city limits alone to hold 3/4 of the female population in your age bracket on a given night. Add in the suburbs? LOL. The bar/club scene here is pretty active. ;-)

  • Ted D

    “It’s not the unrestricted 20% that annoy me. What really annoys me is the majority of the restricted 80% that insists on white-knighting for the unrestricted 20% or even looking up to the unrestricted 20%.”

    This brings up a question to me: Why on earth are we letting the minority set the agenda here? I mean, in some cases it makes sense. Handicapped parking comes to mind. They are a minority, but their needs dictate a change in everyone’s behavior and that is, leave a few parking spots close to the doors for them. But since the 80% are NOT unrestricted sexually, why in the hell did we as a society let THEM set the bar when it comes to things like casual sex, relationships, and morality?

    Who’s bright idea was that?

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I want to experiment with a new medium of creative expression to be called “Swashbuckling Tales of Alpha Drama”. Here is a teaser—tell me what you think:

    “…so there I was, bound with zipties and dangling from the rusty oil derrick. My Nomex flight suit had ripped during the crash with Cthulu, now leaving my alpha penis and balls exposed and swinging heavily in the tropical air.

    “I mentally took inventory. Fuck. The fiery blast that took out the assault hovercraft had also meant the loss of most of my survival kit: the HK417, the wakizashi, the Trojan Magnums.

    “Now the greedy crew of she-pirates circled beneath me, oiled, bronzed, heaving with unrestricted high-N cock-gobbling lust, leather bikinis failing to restrain silicone-enhanced flesh. I wondered if faithful Caligula would be able to come to my aid—perhaps the deadly, talking albino triceratops had managed to don his Size XXXXXXXX…XXL life vest in the chaotic moments right after the crash. He was never a strong ocean swimmer, despite our ninja training together at the Atlantis paramilitary compound…”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @BB

      LOL, I can’t tell if your intended audience is male or female. The dangling balls is so EEWWWWW, and there’s nothing sadder than a flaccid penis on a terrified man.

  • Ted D

    BB – ROFL man! Ya know, this strikes me as the plot for a cheesy porn movie. In fact, Pirates followed a kinda similar path in terms of plot. IMO it was a pretty good porn, and the money spent on effects was a new record in the industry I believe. Still didn’t stop me from laughing at the acting attempts though…

  • INTJ

    @ Ted D

    This brings up a question to me: Why on earth are we letting the minority set the agenda here? I mean, in some cases it makes sense. Handicapped parking comes to mind. They are a minority, but their needs dictate a change in everyone’s behavior and that is, leave a few parking spots close to the doors for them. But since the 80% are NOT unrestricted sexually, why in the hell did we as a society let THEM set the bar when it comes to things like casual sex, relationships, and morality?

    Who’s bright idea was that?

    I think I have a pretty good grasp on why it happened – though how we can reverse it beats me:

    It comes down to the liberal attitude towards racism, sexism, etc. in the mid-20th century. Liberals looked at the many harmful aspects of judgmental conservatism and decided that judgementalism itself was wrong. Quite conveniently, this also coincided with environmentalist concerns, so the “it’s natural” argument also supported anti-judgementalism. This resulted in liberals deciding to strip good behavior down to just ethics, and remove morality from the picture.

    Unfortunately, morality is the glue that holds the glue that holds society together. There are three types of people in a society. Altruists, enforcers, and egoists. Human society has historically thrived because of the beneficial effects of cooperation and healthy behavior. This occurs because the altruists spend their efforts helping society while the enforcers ensure that there are very few egoists freeloading off of society. If the altruists turn on the enforcers and prevent them from enforcing morality, then the egoists thrive. That’s what we’re seeing in today’s society.

  • pvw

    Re. whiteknighting for the 20%; the 80% doesn’t even realize they are a majority? Because the 20% are so prominent and out there, everyone else believes the minority represents everyone.

    @Susan, a funny story about alphas…..

    I was at the Y this morning when I saw one of the old timers, he has to be in his 70s; practically in my dad’s age group. I waved hi. Later on, after his work out, he came over to the machine I was working on to say hello.

    His greeting, I kid you not, “I know my testosterone is in good order today, I’m gravitating towards the first pretty woman I see.”

    I burst out laughing, said thanks, that was really sweet of him. (He knows I’m married).

    I have no doubt he was a real ladykiller as a much younger man, to have the aplomb to say a line like that. He looks distinguised now, an olive toned, very dark complexioned Italian man, salt and pepper hair. I can imagine what he would have looked like back then.

    It certainly gave me a funny story and a flirtatious moment to share with Mr. PVW, that he better be careful, there is an old alpha dawg sniffing around his wifey….

    LOL.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      It certainly gave me a funny story and a flirtatious moment to share with Mr. PVW, that he better be careful, there is an old alpha dawg sniffing around his wifey….

      LOL.

      If you’re in DC by any chance, that might have been Roissy.

  • INTJ

    @ pvw

    whiteknighting for the 20%; the 80% doesn’t even realize they are a majority? Because the 20% are so prominent and out there, everyone else believes the minority represents everyone.

    I don’t think pluralistic ignorance is enough to explain it. If that were the reason, why don’t restricted people just stay silent? Why do they have to white-knight?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “If you’re in DC by any chance, that might have been Roissy.”

    ROFLMFAO! And this is the “almost spit my coffee all over my desk” comment of the week!

  • Sai

    @Bastiat Blogger
    If you published that I would read it (if only out of curiosity).
    “The dangling balls is so EEWWWWW, and there’s nothing sadder than a flaccid penis on a terrified man.”
    Susan does have a point though.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I remember reading somewhere back in the 90′s that one or two suburbs of Pittsburgh had the most bars per population in the country.

    There are areas of the city where they NO LONGER give out liquor licenses (in PA you must have a license to sell any kind of booze, beer included) because there are far too many bars in the neighborhood. The South Side of Pittsburgh has more bars than actual store fronts on main street.

    I was going to mention the South Side after I read the first two lines, but you got it man. Also, there’s nothing quite like living next to Bootleggers’ in Oakland, even during the winter. Thankfully I’ve switched locations.

  • Mike M.

    Ted D @132:

    Maybe these days – but St. Mary’s County, MD, held the title of Most Bars Per Capita for many years.

  • Guavaberry

    This post comes just a little too late (or at the right time for me).

    I comment on this blog occasionally, I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned it but I was cheated on by my first serious boyfriend and I’ve been over a year with my current(?) bf. Current bf has a close female friend with whom he goes out from time to time. I know her and I know the only times they hang out together is when I have to do a raincheck to some date plans. She is in a serious LTR and seems to be a nice girl. However, she’s the type to publish her life everywhere and I can’t help to be bothered when I see pictures of the two of them together.

    I trust my bf(?) But I tend to go emotional and accuse him of cheating on me (wrong, wrong, wrong). He tries to help but I think my immaturity and insecurity gets the best of me. He requested that we had a serious conversation this afternoon where I promised him I trusted him and apologized for telling him such bad things. This has happened a couple of times via text, but this is the first time we actually address this face to face. He told me that he has to make a decision whether or not he can forgive me for that and trust that I’m not going to do it again.

    I’m sorry about the wall of text, but I’m very nervous and anxious and don’t know what to do since I feel like I’m going to lose a person I love dearly for not controlling my emotions well.

    I could use some advice from the HUS community.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Guavaberry

      I think you need to address the underlying problem, which is that you are uncomfortable that he has a close girl friend. I’m sure your past experience plays into it, but as the post suggests, your concern is not unjustified. Male and female friends most frequently do experience some sexual tension. If there are specific things that have felt threatening, like her publishing pics, or perhaps something he has said or done, I think you should tell him.
      This concern of yours isn’t going to just disappear if the triggers remain in place.

      I’m not sure what your bf has to forgive you for – feeling insecure and getting emotional? He’s turning the tables to make this an issue about trusting you, when the real issue is whether you can really trust him. Don’t let him do that.

  • SayWhaat

    Guavaberry,

    Does your bf know that your ex-bf cheated on you? If not, when you see him, be sure to **calmly** explain that your ex’s cheating had a traumatic effect on your ability to trust, and that while you know rationally that your boyfriend is trustworthy, emotionally-speaking your mind goes places that you just can’t control. It is a very real fear.

    Apologize for losing control of your emotions, but ask that he be understanding and empathetic about how you feel, given your past experience. Above all present yourself rationally and calmly, and don’t lose your cool.

    Then ask him to help you figure out ways where you can relax and build up your trust in *people* (not just him) again, because not being able to trust others, especially those you care about, is a handicap when living your life. If he can help you through this, you will be less likely to have another emotional breakdown, and your bond will be strengthened.

    I hope that helps!

  • J

    If you’re in DC by any chance, that might have been Roissy.

    LMAO… at your story too, BB!

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I’m normally very low drama, but hormone changes plus lack of sleep can get to me. I clung onto my husband as we fell asleep because i felt sad and needy for seemingly no reason. But he prefers that I tell him what’s going on and be honest/vulnerable than keep him guessing. So I always try to communicate.

    BTW, having a baby can affect married sex life negatively due to sleep deprivation and logistics, but we’re both still under 30 and healthy, and I still desire him very much.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      But he prefers that I tell him what’s going on and be honest/vulnerable than keep him guessing. So I always try to communicate.

      Same here. There are times when I tell my husband I’m just feeling blue, it has nothing to do with him. He appreciates knowing that I’m not acting sullen or pouting to get a rise out of him, and he leaves me alone until I snap out of it, usually the next day.

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    @Susan

    @Mosquito

    Having given the survey results showing that the hookup culture doesn’t exist…has this website got much of a future? (confused, but optimistic)

    Not sure what you mean?

    I just meant that most people thinking of hook-up think of women and men randomly coupling on a first meating (sic). So they must have stratospheric Ns (Fri & Sat 40 weels a year – 80 added toN each year)

    Your numbers show that reality falls FAR short of that. i.e. hook-up culture (as pictured by most people) doesn’t exist.

    The reason that I’m ‘optimistic’ is that I hope that this blog continues, even after revealing that slut & playa culture doesn’t exist as the MSM wants to portray. Even if slut/playa cultja doesn’t exist, this blog provides a great meeting place for the vast majority of real people in the world.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Mosquito

      The reason that I’m ‘optimistic’ is that I hope that this blog continues, even after revealing that slut & playa culture doesn’t exist as the MSM wants to portray. Even if slut/playa cultja doesn’t exist, this blog provides a great meeting place for the vast majority of real people in the world.

      Once that vast majority realizes just how few people really are promiscuous by nature, hookup culture will end naturally. Then you are right, there won’t be a purpose for HUS as it reads today. Until then, we need a lot more people asking questions like Ted is – why the hell are we letting 20% of the population dictate norms for the rest of us?

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    @Susan

    Susan Walsh November 1, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    Any idea that doesn’t work is OUT. There is no agenda beyond what works (is true)…and that’s science in action. Let the horny guys be your guide, not the gender deformed feminists…Choose game, choose reality (however depressing)

    An interesting endorsement. I do think you took a wrong turn somewhere on the way to a PUA blog, though.

    no, not really. Just saying that tasteful, or distasteful (depressing), the horny guys developing game exist in a BS free environment – shit gets called.

    when is the last time that marcotte got called on her delusional b.s. by feminists?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Just saying that tasteful, or distasteful (depressing), the horny guys developing game exist in a BS free environment – shit gets called.

      I disagree – there’s a lot of shit that goes down in the sphere that not only doesn’t get called, it gets reinforced. When was the last time you saw Ladrock call out any of his rabid readers for hate-filled invective?

  • Guavaberry

    @SayWhaat
    He is aware that I have been cheated on and has been very supportive even on my random emotional runts, but he feels insulted and offended that after more than a year I still don’t trust him, since he has given me no reason not to. He said that he understands but that trust the basis of every relationship, and that he doesn’t know if he can be with me if I don’t fully trust him after that long.

    I apologized and told him that I know that he’s not going to cheat on me but I will always be somewhat jealous and upset that he hangs out with that friend of his because I just have a bad feeling about her.
    He told me that being upset is no reason to accuse somebody of things like cheating.

    @Susan

    Yes, I am uncomfortable with that and he knows it. For him the problem is that “I don’t trust him” because there should be no reason for me to be upset about that if I really did trust him. It upsets me that she uploads pictures every time that they’re together and she has even set a profile picture with him (I find it very ironic that I was the one who took that picture).

    His claim is simple; he wants to be able to hang out with his female friends without me claiming that he is cheating on me. I honestly think this is fair, since I have male friends which I hang out with. It’s ok for me to feel insecure or emotional but until certain point, because after all, even though emotions are irrational I should be mature enough to understand.

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    @Susan

    Dalrock, in my increasingly intermittant experience, is more obsessed with the church’s following of the feminist narrative. I admit that I drifted off of his blog this year because it has become more negative in tone, but hate filled invective against women? – not that I have seen.

    anti-feminist? yes.
    believing that women too should be held to account for their behaviour – yes.
    the lengths that tardcons will attempt to push all blame onto men is ridiculous – so he’s pissed – yes.

    Sadly, I believe that he has become more negative in tone as he has seen more and more reason to be negative. When the church blindly follows the blame-free narrative of feminists by blaming all the ill in the world on men – just how optimistic are men supposed to be about the church?

    The negativity is sad, but realistic.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Guavaberry, I think the female friend of his is crossing some lines, but he enjoys the “friendship” (attention) she’s giving him. Frankly I think it is extremely disrespectful, and I would not personally put up with it. However, your bf is right that you shouldn’t accuse him of cheating. What you should do is weigh this drama against your own emotional well-being. Is it worth putting up with this to be with this guy?

    Realize that you can only change yourself and your own actions/reactions, not him. If he continues to behave this way, you have several choices: 1) leave him to preserve your own emotional well-being, 2) put up with it and not react to it because you think he’s worth it, or 3) continue the drama until he dumps you. What would you suggest to a girl in your shoes if you were giving her advice?

  • http://www.SavvySingleChristian.blogspot.com Savvy

    I’m glad you put that there is a better way, because men actually do a great job of inciting the very drama they say they abhor and it’s quite ridiculous to put it all on the woman. I love that my man tries to make me happy and there is no drama about it. If a man is trying to make you happy and you don’t like it, then you must break up with him. However, people do play hurtful games that cause drama. Assuming that a woman is actively trying to make you jealous by hugging a friend and yelling at her that she’s a slut really isn’t the way to deal with a potential problem. But I can certainly see someone being upset or feeling defrauded in some of these other situations. Most people do not handle their emotions very well, but to blame one party entirely for the problem is unfair.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Also, I would not hang out with male “friends” (acquaintances) unless it was in a group, never alone. I certainly would not have any male friends who tagged me in their Facebook or had a profile picture of “just the two of us.” My husband doesn’t even use Facebook, but we would both find that to be crossing some serious lines.

    Personally I think you are reacting for a good reason and should continue to trust your instincts. Do stop the accusations of cheating, but don’t just accept it. What they’re doing is already not harmless and quite harmful. It would cause massive drama if the situation was reversed — at least it would if the guy loves the girl at all!

    He knows your past and yet continues to cross boundaries, and has not given you the reassurance you need to trust him. I trust my husband because he acts trustworthy, not because enough time has passed. Trust is earned by actions, not time. I was with an ex for over 7 years, and there was no trust. So don’t blindly accept that you should continue to suffer emotional turmoil.

  • Guavaberry

    Hope: In all honesty, I would be offended if he claimed that I was cheating on him with a male friend of mine. There is a difference between being a little jealous or upset and claiming that somebody is cheating on you.

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    @Susan – does walsh.susan1@gmail.com work properly?

    I have a feeling that you’ve missed some emails…

  • http://mosdk338@gmail.com Mosquito

    ah, okay.

    I think that I know why my comment 156(?) is in mod – no problem

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Guava, your boyfriend shouldn’t go out on dates with other women. Group activities, fine, couples, fine. But not dates.

  • HanSolo

    @Guavaberry

    It seems weird that she puts a photo with him and her as her FB photo. I think that he doesn’t need to go out with her alone. Why don’t you go with him and she brings someone else?

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Guavaberry, if you love the guy that much (as in you want to marry him) then dump all your “guy friends” and don’t go out with them anymore. Then ask him to do the same to his “female friends.” If you aren’t willing to do this, then you are right, you have to deal with the two-way street.

    I did this for my husband the first month we were together. He had asked me to stop talking to an ex who was a “friend,” and he also stopped talking to a female friend of his. We didn’t throw stones in a glass house because we wanted to build a life together and fortified our little home against any possible outside intruders.

    If you don’t see this guy as marriage material, then this is moot.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    Athol Kay has mentioned that most affairs begin as “friends” and close co-workers that crossed the boundary. I don’t believe in opposite sex friendships anymore (not since my early 20s). I would rather cultivate friendships with other women, especially now with childrearing and such issues that only other women are really interested in discussing with me. There is no risk of sexual feelings developing, gossip going around, or anything else untoward happening.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Guavaberry

      Wanting to spend time alone with a member of the opposite sex is a red flag. If you are a couple, he should be enthusiastic about hanging out all together. Do you spend time with this woman or does he keep you separate? If it’s the latter, it’s shady.

      I also agree with Hope that the profile pic is absolutely inappropriate. It sounds to me like she’s attracted to him, and he enjoys it.

  • J

    BTW, having a baby can affect married sex life negatively due to sleep deprivation and logistics, but we’re both still under 30 and healthy, and I still desire him very much.

    That it can. Additionally, we tend to forget that sex makes babies; it’s not just for fun. When you’ve recently had a baby, your body isn’t necessarily yearning to do something that will make another one.

  • Sai

    @Mosquito
    “When the church blindly follows the blame-free narrative of feminists by blaming all the ill in the world on men – just how optimistic are men supposed to be about the church?”
    Is he in the Deep South? He just hasn’t found the right church(es) yet.
    (Pardon me, I need to go purge my brain with some violent reading)

  • Iggles

    @ Hope:

    He knows your past and yet continues to cross boundaries, and has not given you the reassurance you need to trust him. I trust my husband because he acts trustworthy, not because enough time has passed. Trust is earned by actions, not time. I was with an ex for over 7 years, and there was no trust. So don’t blindly accept that you should continue to suffer emotional turmoil.

    +1

    Excellent point!

  • http://triggeralert.blogspot.com Byron

    Hi all,

    great post, & I know it’s been said already, but I really wish there were billboards on every streetcorner informing women how much #3

    3. To enliven the relationship

    is a turn-off for men.

    Whenever I’ve felt a woman manufacturing drama in a relationship, for any reason, it’s always immediately put up a huge wall of distance between the two of us, & I’ve looked at them through new eyes of caution & distrust, wary of any signs of further manipulation. It’s always taken some time & effort on their part before I felt I could take some of the barriers down & relax around them again, though I’m not sure they always quite realized that was what was actually happening.

  • Plain Jane

    oh phooey! there are plenty of male drama kings out there.

    drama attracts drama. some people are highly attracted to dramatic people.

    sure, the best thing might be to just chill out and not give a damn. the worst thing is nagging. my grandma nags me and i can’t stand it so i have zero tolerance for a dude nagging me or me nagging him. i like to just chill and not give a damn.

  • Plain Jane

    5. Men fly into jealous rages.

    DUMP HIM!

    never ever marry someone who “flies into rages” for any reason.

  • 3alpha

    Guavaberry,

    Your dude is banging another chick most likely.

    Assert yourself or next him.

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