The world is full of people you could be happy with. It only takes one.
When a relationship ends, it can feel very disappointing and discouraging, especially when you are the dumpee. However, it’s important to recognize that it wasn’t right for you – that’s why it didn’t work. There is someone out there who is right for you. Look back and be honest with yourself – were there times you had a nagging sense that things were not really right? Almost always, the answer is yes.
Here are thirty reasons he or she may not have been right for you. It only takes one. We live and hopefully we learn.
1. You never felt 100% secure in her affection.
2. He was moody, and you couldn’t always read him well.
3. She didn’t have her act together. You made excuses for her to family and friends.
4. Your gut nagged at you – something was off.
5. You sometimes thought, “If only he ______________, this would be perfect.”
6. She didn’t trust easily; she was prone to jealousy and suspicion.
7. It was all about him. You were playing the role of a character in the movie that is his life.
8. You never could picture her as a mom.
9. He confided in others about the relationship before coming to you.
10. She was vague or secretive.
11. He didn’t like himself.
12. She was unreliable, often flaking, canceling or not following through.
13. He wasn’t working hard toward his future; he lacked a sense of purpose.
14. She didn’t make a real effort to get to know your friends.
15. He wasn’t smart or curious.
16. She lacked self-discipline. She confused wants and needs.
17. He said, “I’m only ___ years old.” (This is a red flag at any age.)
18. Someone else broke her heart and it’s still on her mind.
19. He liked taking risks, he was impulsive.
20. She invited attention from other men.
21. He lied to you.
22. She had bitchy or slutty friends.
23. He drank too much.
24. She worked too much.
25. You didn’t laugh at the same stuff.
26. He blamed others when things didn’t go well.
27. She was focused on her next career move and you were not a priority.
28. He embarrassed you in front of other people.
29. The sex wasn’t good for you.
30. They didn’t want you.
What got me thinking about this was a song by Brad Paisley I’ve always liked. Everything changes. You will be surprised.
{ 242 comments… read them below or add one }
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31. He asked about your “past”
The problem with such lists is that they encourage women to look for reasons to reject a guy, not accept him. The items on your list are perfectly reasonable but it becomes far too easy for the list to devolve into “I didn’t like his shoes”.
As well, focusing on “the one” perpetuates the soul mate myth. That’s emotional pornography, nothing more.
The list is written for the woman who has already been rejected and is in pain. By definition, if she has been rejected he wasn’t right for her. Applies to both sexes.
Which is why I debunked it in the first line of the post.
It’s not that there is only one person who can make us happy. The point is that there are hundreds or thousands of people who can make us happy, and we only need one.
I’m afraid you get an F for reading comprehension, Private Man.
The list is written for the woman who has already been rejected and is in pain. By definition, if she has been rejected he wasn’t right for her. Applies to both sexes.
You should mention that it is for a woman who has been rejected and not for one that is contemplating rejection.
He wasn’t right for you. It’s over.
I disagree with some of these:
2. Let’s not cast aside the moody. Some perfectly good people get down. Lincoln and Churchill were prone to “black unholy despondency”. But really, mere moodiness should not be a deal-breaker.
8. What if he sucks at baseball or is just not that athletic?
13. The dumb and average deserve mates too!
15. Eh, I don’t think a guy should have to be more than polite with her friends. If he finds he genuinely likes some of them, that’s cool, but the girl should not treat him as a new friend in the set. No guy wants to join a gaggle of hens unless he is the rooster, if you know what I mean.
17. Risk can be good. Context is key here.
24. Define “too much”? There can be an early period where “shoulder to the wheel” leads to later happiness. My wife and I went through that and it wasn’t great for either of us at the time but it worked out well for the long term.
27. ??
I still don’t see how the girls are going to find people who are right for them in the first place.
My sister comes to mind.
Talk about complete, chronic, ongoing fiasco.
“12. He wasn’t working hard toward his future; he lacked a sense of purpose.”
This needs a caveat that attending law school should not count as “working hard toward his future.”
But I get an A in hangover!
Wow. Might it make more sense for women to ignore the motes and concentrate on the beams? If the only men you attract are bums, the logical inference would be that you are a bum magnet. What is it about your own character, manner and appearance that is appealing to jerks and repellent to decent guys? There is no guarantee that being a better person will bring you True Romance, but beyond all doubt you will be a better person. Once you are, you will have no problem rejecting assholes without making long lists of their obvious defects.
“If the only men you attract are bums…”
Then good men will be wise and not break her pattern
@Greg Swann
This does not say a woman shouldn’t be self-reflective (Susan consistently encourages women to do so). It also doesn’t really say the men in question are “bums.” A man who doesn’t make a real effort with a girl isn’t necessarily a bum or an asshole, is he? I don’t think so. This post is just meant to comfort a woman who was rejected by a guy who wasn’t into her. Many of the items on the list are characteristics that would be shown by a man who wasn’t that into the woman, no? Why is it so awful to offer encouragement to a woman who needs to move on from a guy who didn’t like her?
There are a lot of men and women who are already Better Persons, and they get rejected. The fault does not lie with them.
For the record, this list is not meant to apply entirely to one individual, LOL. I’ve heard of several breakups recently between people where the reason was on this list, but did not speak to the character of either person.
What I’m trying to do here is offer encouragement and support to the brokenhearted and disappointed, not describe assholes. I could write a list of 150 reasons they’re bad news.
Even I couldn’t help but LOL at Abbott’s first comment. The dryness behind putting “31.” in front of it cracked me up for some reason.
@Jason
I am completely incapable of feeling frustrated with Abbott. I don’t know why – we have no relationship – I don’t believe he has ever even addressed me by name. Furthermore, I don’t think his comment here makes any sense, though it would at Jezebel. I admire his tenacity and his clear consistency. Abbott knows what he is about, and he never allows his emotions to interfere with his commentary. With Abbott, it never is personal, and I appreciate that. Plus, as you say, he is very funny.
“4. Your gut nagged at you – something was off.”
The sun didn’t rise as brightly that day.
5. You sometimes thought, “If only he ______________, this would be perfect.”
would do everything I say
7. It was all about him. You were playing the role of a character in the movie that is his life.
Because making a woman the main character in your life story ALWAYS works out well.
“17. He liked taking risks, he was impulsive. ”
Like approaching her…asking her out…going for the kiss.
26. He blamed others when things didn’t go well.
He must have learned something from women.
As someone who empathizes with Susan’s intent, I like this list. I also think the list is beneficial to people who perhaps are nostalgic about the “good times” in an old (and not so good) relationship, because they are disappointed or discouraged by their current prospects. And for the gentlemen who dislike this list— keep in mind many of the he and hims could just as easily be changed to she and hers.
If I had experienced any of these while dating a guy, it would be a red flag. I’m rarely so naive that I don’t see these things while they’re happening.
The only relationship which still bothers me is the one that ended for no reason. None of these occurred when we were dating. That’s the problem. If they did, I’d sleep well at night.
@Pixie
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
Done. I really did not intend this as a rant against men, I was just addressing my core constituency. I hope the revised version will allow the point of the post to come through.
Re: Abbot
I consider his comments like a guilty pleasure – they’re usually what I was slightly thinking, but wouldn’t have said.
Susan, I kinda feeling for you with how the only comments are male commenters looking to negatively pick apart a number, or a few.
Possibility ain’t quite my strong suit, but I trying to send the best vibes I can.
(And hold back the negativity that can arise at times)
“The world is full of people you could be happy with.
It only takes one.”
Good stuff! Though, the length of the lists does seem to make finding that “one” much harder to find than the quote above does, imo.
Where are the ladies!?
@Marie
Sometimes we do get blindsided. Someone disappears from our life and we have no idea why. It doesn’t mean there wasn’t a reason, it just means we don’t have that information. The person that ended the relationship did have a reason, they just didn’t share it with you. That’s very difficult as it prevents us from moving ahead as we struggle to find an explanation. We think that if we understood the reason, we might be able to address it or make it better. What if it’s a misunderstanding or something than can be fixed? These are the hardest relationships to get past for this reason.
When this happened to me while I was young, I found myself dreaming about that person for years, long after I’d moved on and stopped thinking about him. My subconscious still served that up to me while I slept – I was still trying to find a reason that made sense. I never did. Sometimes we just have to accept our absolute powerlessness in order to get past it in time.
“I hope the revised version will allow the point of the post to come through.”
I do think keeping things gender neutral, with they, is better. It might not alway be interchangeable, but it does allow things to be considered both ways, easier.
@Cooper
Do you mean in life or as commenters on this blog?
@Cooper
OK, thanks. In the past, men got frustrated that I was advising guys.
I’m happy to give this a try.
@Susan
Can I just say how much I detest audio adverts that auto start?
Even if the bandwidth is free (and it isn’t always), I don’t appreciate my speakers coming to life uninvited.
Are you sure that this is a good move for your ultimate revenue? Is BlogHer really doing you a favour?
BTW
interesting list, at least 3 or 4 entries apply (I reckon), I wonder what ‘she’ would say her list was…interesting question. There’re always two sides to the tale.
Some things on the list don’t necessarily end the relationship. As Escoffier pointed out, there are times when one person works a ton of hours, another time one person may become depressed or suffer a family crisis. This is not to suggest that all of these things reflect poor character on the other person’s part (though some do).
I think it’s important to listen to one’s gut and take a read on how things feel in a relationship. If you’re feeling a bit threatened by other people paying attention to your SO, why is that? Are they just that attractive? If so, can you live with that? Are they unable to resist attention and attraction from the opposite sex? If so, you need to think about what that will feel like over the long-term. That need is probably not going to diminish with time in a monogamous relationship.
Often times people get very caught up in having been rejected, even if the person who rejected them wasn’t right for them, either because they weren’t that great, or because they are going back to school in the fall, or because they are not over an ex, or whatever. Endings always have something to do with us, of course, but they’re often due to something as simple as a lack of compatibility or different life goals.
The point is, you really, really don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you.
Free yourself up to go out and find someone who does. There are many other people out there, new people every day.
Great list!
If I had to add my own missing reason it will be.
31. His mama/relatives hated you.
It seems that family doesn’t meddle in this things in America as much but in my culture it will destroy any relationship sooner or later unless the people involved are really firm about having their relationship off limits.
@Anacaona
Oh, that is a tough one. It does happen here, often around issues like marrying someone of a different culture or religion. I think it can be very, very difficult. I know people who have been disowned by their parents and not even having grandchildren has healed the rift. For every one of these, I think many more relationships end instead.
@Anacaona:
What is it like to be in a culture where you actually have to interact with your family and not just the people who you choose to associate with?
“Do you mean in life or as commenters on this blog?”
On the blog, I guess. It’s probably safe to say there are too many gender difference to keep a lot of things gender neutral, IRL.
I guess, the real question is: can Susan advise both sexes with the same advice?
“In the past, men got frustrated that I was advising guys.”
I think you can. Invariably, the advice would been received differently by either side, but that’s not to say we can’t find things that we both see differently, as well as to the same purpose.
It’s like what Ted said, when you told him to “shut it down” in regards to a particular ‘sphere trope. It’s not intended to scare your female readership – it would be pretty sad if that’s the only purpose a male reader, here, has. Which, of courses, is not the case with a few guys around here. Ted is completely right in the fact that if that’s the way we wanted to view things – we’d be “you know where.”
“I’m looking for a reason to not just give up and live the way much of the ‘sphere suggests,”
But if the relationship failed due a cause stated in the list, then you can expect people to use the list as a filter while selecting a partner in order to avoid the consequence (break-up). Therefore, people will use this list to screen men. After all, what good would this list be without offering advice for future events?
And people, greedy by nature, won’t mind trying to tick off every item on that list. Such behavior is encouraged by yourself, saying:
What is it like to be in a culture where you actually have to interact with your family and not just the people who you choose to associate with?
Hard to explain but I would try, is different and its not all relatives some families are really nuclear with being pretty much mom, dad and kids, some are centipede mom, kids dad in turn, passing boyfriend or none, some others is mom, kids and other relatives like grandparents, some others are mom, dad, kids extended family…It varies by class and location. I was lucky to have a nuclear family more or less big enough to allow for the benefits of the extended family without the constant meddling and gossiping issues of the really extended ones. It does encourages tolerance though you cannot escape a blood tie too easily, so you learn to deal with a huge variety of people practically since birth…is that what you wanted to know?
“30. They didn’t want you.”
I suppose this one is the most interesting and kind of ties into the fear that you are the second choice, rather than the first.
And I don’t really see a way around it.
Because just because someone didn’t want you, that doesn’t mean that they were not the other person’s top choice and that any subsequent partner would rank lower in terms of preference.
How do people in general get over this problem and not have it bleed into future relationships?
@Anaconoa:
” It does encourages tolerance though you cannot escape a blood tie too easily, so you learn to deal with a huge variety of people practically since birth…is that what you wanted to know?”
Pretty much. I’m generally just curious. How big do some of the extended family groups get and how much are they generally in each other’s business?
How do people in general get over this problem and not have it bleed into future relationships?
Can you ride a bike? Same principle you whether get back on it every time you fall having learn something or never ride one again.
“Can you ride a bike? Same principle you whether get back on it every time you fall having learn something or never ride one again”
Yes, but say you found the overall relationship experience much more appealing that your current one.
Then you would always be frustrated that the original relationship didn’t work out and you got stuck with a lesser one.
> There are a lot of men and women who are already Better Persons, and they get rejected. The fault does not lie with them.
Okay. I’m thinking my objection stands — look to your own character and behavior, especially if you keep rewinding through the same one episode over and over again — but it’s not a major big deal. I like your work better than any woman writing about women and sex that I have seen, so I don’t want to give you too much grief. I don’t think there is anything smart about hooking-up, but I will concede that it might be possible to be less miserable with the consequences, if you consistently make your deliberate errors by informed discretion — something like Gambling Sensibly or Wreck Your Car and Survive.
FWIW, I hate the gender-neutral re-write. The kvetching is still all obviously females griping about males, but now we seem to have men despairing over defects they would not have even noticed in their ex-girlfriends. Using the plural to describe individuals is even worse: “31. They thought there were too many of you to fit into their sports car.”
I like you blog, and I apologize for caviling.
Then you would always be frustrated that the original relationship didn’t work out and you got stuck with a lesser one.
It depends on the person, most people reframe their POV to get what they want and find out why the other relationship didn’t worked out or just break up of the lesser one and try to find something closer to the original one or a mix of both. Most people try to work with what they have leaving in the past forever was not selected in mass in our species for obvious reasons.
@Feral Employee
That’s a good point, the list does indeed serve as a potentially useful filter for both women and men. I would advise against anyone putting significant effort into a relationship that ticked too many of these boxes.
I think you know that was not the intent of my saying “It only takes one.” I’m saying there are many men and women out there to choose from. Many. And you only need to find one. It’s a lot more upbeat than the soulmate myth.
As for people filtering out others using all 30 criteria, that seems like a poor strategy. It’s not that the person in question isn’t right for anyone, it’s that they are not right for you.
Looking at the list, I count 10 reasons as character-neutral (1,4,5,8,18,24,25,27,29,30) and 20 as character-negative. I would definitely filter people out based on the 20 negatives.
Everything on this list describes either entitlement, privilege or intolerance. To describe such an inhumane list as reasons a relationship wasn’t right is to describe as wrong the very human frailties that are the reasons we need relationships. Susan, if you truy believe what you profess in this post, your inhumanity is utterly revealed and you should shut down this blog before you cause any more harm.
This seems off to me. I mean, would you not date some 22 year old that had just gone backpacking through South America or Europe? That is, had you been dating him right before he did this, a conversation may very well have been, “I am ambitious, but, I am only 22. The time to backpack through Brasil is now.”
Also, I would have liked to see items with Temper and Self Involvement.
I think this post is lovely. I think many women tear themselves to shreds over failed relationships.. finding every possible fault with themselves, to try to decipher why they weren’t loveable. But sometimes, it’s just not right (timing, personalities or any of the 30 reasons above) and intuitively they probably knew this but were just smitten with the guy.
The way I think about rejection now is that without losing in life, you can’t become a better version of yourself. People who win every time that have no impetus to improve themselves. Plus, rejection and pain soften you, make you more compassionate & IMO beautiful (inner). So we should see rejection as one of life’s many gifts, shaping you into a more perfectly imperfect human!
X
PS. Cooper, first time I have seen your profile pic & FYI you are a total babe. Can’t understand how you would have a problem finding a kind, beautiful GF.
This is the kind of thing that people never talk about.
@JP
I think for most people, being rejected by someone you are choosing at the time is difficult, but I don’t believe that person will remain in the #1 slot. Because when you do find someone who thinks you’re great for them, and you feel it too, the chemistry that arises from that tops anything you had with someone who was ambivalent about you, for whatever reason.
Also, we humans have a way of rewriting history a bit, or focusing on what’s working now. We learn to be grateful and see the positive in what we have. For those who can’t manage it, the only answer is solitude. This is indeed what we see today among single women who sailed through their 20s without a thought for the future, and who bring long checklists (of the wrong kind) to the SMP.
@Greg
It’s a valid point, and I appreciate your making it. Blaming the other party for the demise in a relationship is #26! No doubt lots of relationships end because neither party is relationship material.
Sorry about that, you inspired it in part. I really did not want to be misunderstood as ragging on guys. Any remaining discrepancy is entirely unintended, I assure you.
Agree on the awkwardness of the grammar. I had to hold my nose when I changed the title of the post.
@Jacob Ian Stalk
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that not one of these reasons would produce a mismatch between two people. Is that correct? For example, let’s take #1. “You never felt secure in her affection.”
Now, there are several reasons a man might not feel secure in a woman’s affection. They might include:
1. She doesn’t feel much affection.
2. He is prone to assuming that people don’t care for him even when they do.
3. She does care about him, but is not ready to go at the pace he has set, i.e. fast. (This could apply to either commitment or sex.)
4. His need is greater than her ability to give.
5. She cares deeply but is quite reserved and not very demonstrative.
I’m sure others could come up with additional scenarios. The point is not whose fault it is. The point is that the two are not a good match. Ex: She wasn’t right for him, because she is very reserved and independent, and he loves PDA and cuddling.
Oh my goodness. I’m really scared. Do you think I caused any breakups? Or sent someone spiraling into a depression? Should I shut down the blog tonight? I would hate to be responsible for human tragedy and suffering. Dammit, the post has been up for a few hours. How can I reach people who may have read it?
@Ramble
Thank you, my literal friend, for pointing out the errors in my thinking. You are absolutely right. What I intended to refer to was that line in relation to the discussion of commitment while dating. As in, “I am only 24! I just want to have fun with my friends!” or “I am only 33! I am really enjoying my life and independence, I’m in no hurry to settle down.”
Those are both great – although I intended to cover Self-Involvement with #7. If you have any examples of what you’d like added, put them here!
@ Susan,
How could you take the bait of JIS?
I had some peanuts I was ready to throw at him!
@Susan:
” This is indeed what we see today among single women who sailed through their 20s without a thought for the future, and who bring long checklists (of the wrong kind) to the SMP.”
I just figured that everyone was trying to permanently bond with someone else as soon as humanly possible after age 13 or so. I’m pretty sure that’s when I started looking.
So, I’m honestly kind of confused about the entire hook-up culture because it doesn’t make any sense to me, internally. Of course, I generally ignored pop culture anyway, since I found it distasteful.
I’ve since come to realize that most people really do take their cues from the surrounding culture rather than develop their own independent worldview.
Even my partytime sisters had the aim of getting married in their 20′s’, even with various failed short term relationships, and both are now married with children in their early 30′s. I don’t think they went to the SMP with a list. I think they were looking for whatever worked.
I just know that I would have been devastated if I had found someone I wanted to be with and gotten slammed because they wanted to go out and have a good time.
@Lamia
It’s true, there is no joy without suffering. It’s very difficult, and there is much needless suffering, but we should not try to eliminate it from our lives.
I also agree that rejection makes us empathic. This is why people often claim that the “beautiful people” or popular kids in high school tend to be shallow. They have never experience the feeling of being left out.
@Mireille
He’s just another weirdo with poor communication skills. He doesn’t know how funny he is.
@JP
Yes, I think you are very rare in that respect. Most people join the herd or the pack.
“Plus, rejection and pain soften you, make you more compassionate & IMO beautiful (inner). So we should see rejection as one of life’s many gifts, shaping you into a more perfectly imperfect human!”
This is very true. Although I don’t immediately come to appreciate being rejected as one of life’s great gift, I have often acknowledged that the angst, in result, is (almost as if) intended to encourage the necessary self-improvement, to overcome it. I hone in on this when I exercise.
In fact, working out is very similar. Cause it’s “reaching failure” that promote muscle growth, the most.
PS. Thanks
I just got e-smacked.
Nothing amazing, just that lots of guys, and some girls, have bad tempers. And, lots of girls, and some guys, are self involved.
Plus, many pretty people really are much more likely to be simple/shallow.
“Pretty” features very often correspond with a more child-like look (i.e. large eyes for a face that also has soft features). And those pretty people very rarely pursue fields that demand reasoning and higher logic (i.e. STEM). I understand that Logic and Empathy do not go hand in hand, but that people who are truly empathetic, and not just emotional, are very often quite smart.
One more thing about the “I am only ___” statement.
If some girl does hear this from her man, she is actually fairly fortunate. He was quite honest with her. In my experience, a lot of those conversations go something like,
Kayla: So, where is this going?
Ryan: [Oh Fuck! Really? She is asking me this at at 24?! Well, just calm down and be cool] Wow. Well, I know this, you are really important to me and I know I don’t want to lose you.
Kayla: [Aaawww] Aaawww.
[makeout makeout fuck fuck fuck]
Well, that one resonated for me because when I was with my “older woman” GF (the hot, unstable one) I used to say “I’m only ___” as a defense mechanism. Did not improve the relationship.
By 24 I was starting to panic about having children. Crud. Gotta get married. Gotta start a havin kids…
I was a gettin old and didn’t want to end up like my Grandmother who had my Mother at age 40 when Grandpa was over 40.
Aristotle said that a man should not get married before 35.
I say that a man should not get a law degree.
By the time I was 24, my mother was dead and my father was totally disabled from a stroke. Not a good combo.
I weren’t not waitin till 35.
@Ramble
That was not an e-smack. You are a very male thinker, and I am a very female thinker. I need male feedback for balance, and you are very good at that. You are also very even-tempered, and fair.
Yes, people who have high IQ and EQ both are generally both smart and charismatic, e.g. Bill Clinton.
LOL at Abbot (like almost always)
If I ever need post-breakup reasons I’ll come here.
“Plus, rejection and pain soften you, make you more compassionate & IMO beautiful (inner). So we should see rejection as one of life’s many gifts, shaping you into a more perfectly imperfect human!”
I would take caution here… Sometimes the person becomes softer… but sometimes you end up with another Miss Havisham or Dr. House.
This is a brilliant piece of writing. I’m picturing a graphic novel with thought bubbles. Are you a writer, Ramble?
@JP
Oh, that’s terrible. I’m sorry. One of my worst fears is dying while my kids are young. They still need me, you see.
It sounds like your family definitely tends towards having kids later. I can see why you wanted to do it the other way round.
@Sai
Hi Sai!
How is your make-over project coming along? Inquiring minds want to know.
=====
“I would take caution here… Sometimes the person becomes softer… but sometimes you end up with another Miss Havisham or Dr. House.”
Well, I don’t think anyone deliberately seeks out pain– at least I’d hope not! Regarding poor old Miss H and grumpy Dr. House: What shears steel into their souls is the lack of connection with another. Or a positive outlet for their pain.
Have you heard the phrase (I think it’s by EM Forster?) “Only connect”? I think that represents a huge chunk of it. Either they connect to other people and develop a sky-high EQ or they connect to a skill and develop it as a way to kind of carve through the pain.
We talked about in my church group this week, among other things, about the concept of the sacred wound. The place where we are hurt the most is also the source of our greatest strength.
Imagine Miss Havisham’s devotion and strength of will being positively channelled if her fiance hadn’t ditched her at the altar. Or what could have happened if she decided to throw the ancient wedding cake in the trash and open the curtains and let in the light.
As for Dr. House, I imagine a position in Lupus Research (that was a joke!) 
Wonder Twin Powers Activate.
You are so nice. Either way, I was definitely not offended.
Sometimes. Again, you are always paying me compliments.
Keep it up.
Holy shit, no! I can barely form sentences. And I can never find the words that I am looking for.
@JP
JP, I am so sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts are with you. And I really like reading what you have to say, you have a rare perspective.
Peace–
Jackie, who was your favorite character on House? This is a serious question.
This doesn’t hold water, and is a typical instance of chick logic… (Sorry for being harsh.)
Because, let’s say that any given man has 50% of probability of fulfilling any of the requirements above. Simple math (0.5 ^ 30 = 0.0000000009) shows that just ONE man in one billion will satisfy all thirty requirements.
I repeat: just one in one billion men will satisfy all of your 30 requirements. Now, take a deep breath, pause, and give it a good thought, on how useful these “lists” actually are.
lafcina…your analysis assumes that the 30 criteria are independent. Which they most likely are not. “Had bitchy or slutty friends” and “drank too much” probably have a pretty good correlation coefficient. Ditto for lots of other pairs of criteria.
@Escoffier
Re: Aristotle
Esc, Aristotle came up in our discussion group! He was quoted within a different book, regarding happiness. Real happiness, according to A, meant the full development of the self physically, emotionally and spiritually. The person leading out group believed that if he were alive today the list would include psychologically and sexually.
Here were the other comments on happiness in this text, which may be of interest:
2) We can never be happy as long as we confuse pleasure and happiness (can’t imagine too many PUAs would like this book!)
3) Real happiness depends on making genuine contribution in life
4) We must be actively engaged in service through our gifts/talents to be happy
5) It is the process of bringing to completeness all the gifts we have been given
I only know Aristotle’s work at a most superficial level, but appreciated the discussion it brought forth.
lafcina, disagreeing with the list is one thing, but then implying the statistical improbability of almost any man meeting the “requirements” is something else.
For instance, had Susan listed out genuine “requirements”, there is a good chance that a large list of guys could pass through it’s filter. For instance, working from really generic to more specific, her list might look like this:
1. No Serial Killers
2. No Rapists
3. Speaks same language as me
.
.
.
17. Non-Smoker
.
.
.
23. Enormous and Powerful Cock
.
.
.
etc.
It’s easy to see that applying a factor of 0.5 to most items would be ridiculous.
Susan, btw, if you are using this list to setup one of the girls in your group, well, I satisfy all of the requirements.
Hi Ramble!
Do you mean which character I liked the most, or the one found the most interesting?
(People like Dr. House are best appreciated from a far, far distance. He may have a tart wit and sport rather awesome canes but I would greatly dislike being around someone like that IRL. Outside of TV shows, those kind of people are usually bosses from Hades and supremely difficult to work with.)
Cameron *sigh*
Gorgeous, overflowing with empathy
Well, which character did you most look forward to seeing? Granted, I was really curious to see if it was House.
Cameron was a little piece of (empathetic) ass.
So, you won’t stand in the way of our happiness then Ramble?
Woo-hoo
David Foster… Even if I generously shave off dependency-effects, I would still end up with an astronomical number. (One in 100 million perhaps? One in ten million? Heck, even one in 100,000 is still a huge number.)
The point is, this clearly illustrates that such “lists” are unrealistic. I’d say that, in real life, if you still need to apply some filter, stick to two or three criteria only.
Men have short lists (NMALT)
Boner test
Bitch test
We’re good to tussle
Here was my list of dealbreakers (some unfortunately learned from experience) when I was single again at 25 and before finding my husband.
1) Illegal drug addiction. I had tried and failed to put up with this expensive and excuse-ridden habit, but frankly I much prefer non-potheads. No offense to anyone, just a personal thing (I hate smoke).
2) Emotionally volatile, yells at me, not in control of himself. Now I will never put up with yelling.
3) Not “in love” with me. Yeah, I’ve gotten the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” line from a guy.
4) Lied, cheated, and otherwise disrespected me multiple times.
5) Doesn’t want to get married or have children.
I was ready to have kids by my mid-20s. Most guys I knew were not, but my husband and I were on the same page about kids. That was huge.
On that note, our boy has started really smiling, and it totally melts my heart when he looks at me and breaks into a smile. Makes the late nights all worth it!
Hope, I think any one of those is a deal-breaker. Two, and you need to run. Five are, as the historians say, “overdetermined.”
Hey Ramble,
Re: Dr. House, my feelings went from intrigued and impressed by his quick wit to dissolving into something very much like pity in very short order. He has the EQ of a toddler, I’m sorry to say, and traffics in contempt. I bet his relationships get real old real fast.
Pornography and prostitutes are much more his style since he can have a purely transactional relationship. Caring for someone besides himself is probably scary as hell for him. Much safer to only put his money out there and not his heart.
Happily, between his contempt for religious people and curmudgeonly ways, someone like that would avoid me at all costs. Didn’t Cameron have a crush on him in the beginning?
He may be a jerk but he had her number: She didn’t want him, she wanted his brokenness.
OK, she thinks to herself, he is,
1. Not a Serial Killer
2. Not a Rapist
3, And, he is a Non-Smoker
Alright, filter passed. I am going to marry him!
Emotionally volatile, yells at me, not in control of himself. Now I will never put up with yelling.
Susan, this is what I was referring to. Many guys are unwilling to check their temper.
Only 3?
Uh huh, sure. Not going to happen.
House had immense EQ, he just didn’t follow societal rules on how to show it. Unless that was the route to the most fun. He did plenty of apparently cruel things that were actually for the best for others.
@Ramble
“Shared values” (or “compatible values”) would be a pretty huge filter! You could encompass just about every action (smoking, etc) under that
“Good character” would be the other, for moral fitness.
You could construct a filter like a sieve with just those two, I think.
Considering that I easily meet all of the reasons here that aren’t specific to a particular relationship, I endorse this list.
I’m the only one that got bored with House? I mean every episode was the same “indeterminate disease that was killing someone they team made their research there were a couple of death scare, they find the cure at least minute and voila! the patient lived” rinse and repeat.
The characters were not that compelling IMO to keep the formula going for a while so I got bored. I mean I will forever thank the creators since the show saved my sister’s life but it ended up as repetitive as Pokemon and I have hard time seeing the same thing playing all over again, YMMV.
@Jackie
Ironically, when I found a good exercise DVD they piled more work than ever on us. I am slowly getting there. (Also, the negative calories in celery myth is just that.) I am searching for foundation/concealer that won’t break me out and hope to stop by a Bare Escentials store soon.
(I think Miss H. would have made a servant chuck the cake. I am willing to touch a snake but not a giant spider nest. That wouldn’t have been good for her heart.)
@Hope
All good children love their mamas.
@Anacaona
I actually slowed way down in my watching of House. His antics gave me lots of uncomfortable laughs but then it all made me pretty sad.
I think that any selection filters should be linked to self-appraisal. I use a simple matrix that separates activities by Enjoy Doing/Do Not Enjoy Doing and Good for Me/Not Good for Me.
So a proposed activity will ideally fit into 1 of 4 boxes:
1. Enjoyable + Good for Me
2. Not Enjoyable + Good for Me
3. Enjoyable + Not Good for Me
4. Not Enjoyable + Not Good for Me
Clearly I want to emphasize Box 1 activities and to make them the anchor for my lifestyle.
Box 2 activities are all about efficiency and speed. If I can outsource these, I will. I don’t want to dwell on them; they are the “necessary evils.”
Box 3 activities are special rewards and I am concerned more about managing the downside risks and doing these in moderation.
Box 4 activities are to be avoided.
A relationship should, to me, naturally gravitate towards whatever **BOX 1** activities you have in common with the other person. This is the win-win zone, sustainable, etc. If all of you have in the Box 1 overlap is sex, then limit the relationship to sex. If you are limited to an overlapping interest in big cat conservation, then that’s your target activity together.
The relationship could sort of define its own parameters if both parties have gone through a period of deep reflection and can honestly and accurately describe their Box 1-4 activities. Too often, I think, people today tend to think about general benefits they want to receive from another person or features that they require the other person to have, with the result that the other person is dehumanized and objectified in a very Consumer Reports-type of way. It can become exploitative because everyone will obviously want an expensively-featured premium product for bargain prices.
Some of this is certainly a good idea, but it may not actually reveal how specific activity components of desired lifestyles are going to line up. It also can be advantageous for those who are still searching, because you can go ahead and proceed with your own Box 1 activities and goals and hopefully meet someone in the natural course of doing what you honestly enjoy doing.
“Box 2 activities are all about efficiency and speed. If I can outsource these, I will. I don’t want to dwell on them; they are the “necessary evils.””
Most of life is lived in Box 2.
JP: Yes. Because Box 2 activities are not enjoyable in and of themselves, they can cause tension and stress. I think that the out-sourcing and/or automation of Box 2 activities (after they have been correctly identified) is an important life mastery skill.
Of course, basing a relationship on shared Box 2 activities is probably not such a great idea, since you will become conditioned to associate the other person with an unpleasant or embarrassing task. I think it is better to take care of these on your own and not them to the relationship, because they will inevitable be viewed as baggage/problems/complications.
Sharing Box 2 workmate tasks might have worked at a time when people were less spoiled, more attracted to Stoicism, more willing to compromise, more duty-bound, etc. But those times are long past and everyone’s favorite radio station has become WIIFM–”What’s In It For Me” (I include myself in this).
“JP: Yes. Because Box 2 activities are not enjoyable in and of themselves, they can cause tension and stress. I think that the out-sourcing and/or automation of Box 2 activities (after they have been correctly identified) is an important life mastery skill.”
You can’t exactly outsource work and family life.
I’m always been amused by women who seek Mr. Perfect while simultaneously being self-centered low-quality people themselves. And yes, I’ve seen it among guys, which is usually demonstrated by the view, “She’s gotta be beautiful.”
This list is interesting because in the preface paragraphs, you state:
When a relationship ends, it can feel very disappointing and discouraging, especially when you are the dumpee. However, it’s important to recognize that it wasn’t right for you – that’s why it didn’t work. There is someone out there who is right for you. Look back and be honest with yourself – were there times you had a nagging sense that things were not really right? Almost always, the answer is yes.
Here are thirty reasons he or she may not have been right for you. It only takes one. We live and hopefully we learn.
Some of the list invites introspection, putting it on you as the reason why the other person might not have found appealing as a compatible mate. “You never felt 100% secure in her affection.” Insecurity can be unattractive. On the flip side of that, maybe she just never really gave you the level of affection you needed to feel that 100% commitment.
But a lot these seem like self-justifications for accepting the break-up. You get dumped, but “She had bitchy or slutty friends,” so it’s ok. Or he stopped calling and avoided you, but “He drank too much,” so that’s probably the reason you’re heart-broken.
What I find funny is the reaction of some of the men to what you have written. They were assuming from the post that it is a checklist of reasons to break-up, but it appears to be a list of reasons to ACCEPT the break up, like a military AAR (after action report). I think that says a lot about their assumptions of their expectations for women writers and “lists.” You’re definitely not a “The Frisky” or “Your Tango” writer. haha
Those boxes — I have definitely lived that. I had a GF who was definitely in box 3. Around the same time, I was hanging out with this group and there was a girl in the group who was into me, or so I thought, but I just could not muster up any interest. My parents really did not like the GF of the time, not that they saw her much, but they really wanted her gone. So at some point I told my mother about that other girl–my mother never did meet her but what she learned about her made her very interested–and I offhandedly used the phrase “plain & stable.” My mother went on a campaign to get me to dump “hot & crazy” and take up with “plain & stable.” It’s the only time she ever really mucked around in my love life.
In the end I did dump hot & crazy but I never saw plain & stable outside that group.
10 of these are absolute and firm dealbreakers. I personally know many men who clear the hurdle easily. Settling on any one of those is poor judgment. This is the right kind of checklist to have.
1. You never felt 100% secure in her affection: dead end, total fail, move on.
2. He was moody, and you couldn’t always read him well: very anxiety producing, move on.
3. She didn’t have her act together. You made excuses for her to family and friends: If you can’t be proud of the person you’re dating, NEXT.
4. Your gut nagged at you – something was off: Always trust your gut instinct. Always.
5. You sometimes thought, “If only he ______________, this would be perfect.”: Not necessarily a dealbreaker. Some examples that would be OK because they are unrelated to character:
got a job
were two inches taller
lived closer
was Jewish
Examples that should be dealbreakers:
was straight
treated me better
was able to say “I love you”
wasn’t still hung up on his ex
6. She didn’t trust easily; she was prone to jealousy and suspicion: Look to your own behavior. Are you doing anything to cause that? If you are not deliberately doing so, and you are unable to reassure her then it’s probably not a good match.
7. It was all about him. You were playing the role of a character in the movie that is his life.: NPD. Dealbreaker.
8. You never could picture her as a mom: Obvs not an issue if you don’t want kids. This one is about the match.
9. He confided in others about the relationship before coming to you: Obviously not ideal and can ruin a relationship but can also be addressed to possibly make the relationship better.
10. She was vague or secretive: Shady behavior is always a tipoff. Dealbreaker. Don’t ask don’t tell often falls under this one.
11. He didn’t like himself: A massive time and emotional suck for either sex. Don’t go there.
12. She was unreliable, often flaking, canceling or not following through: This behavior deserves two warnings, on the third strike you’re out.
13. He wasn’t working hard toward his future; he lacked a sense of purpose: Men might not mind this, IDK. For women it should be a dealbreaker.
14. She didn’t make a real effort to get to know your friends: Worth exploring. Is shyness an issue? Miscommunication about mixing it up with other people? If she cares about you, she’ll care about people important to you.
15. He wasn’t smart or curious: Not a problem for a woman who isn’t smart or curious.
16. She lacked self-discipline. She confused wants and needs: Be on the lookout for big spending, and other self indulgences. If an issue, communicate that you view this as a problem, and give her a chance to improve.
17. He said, “I’m only ___ years old.” (This is a red flag at any age.): Only relates to the issue of avoiding commitment. If you’re not looking for commitment, party on.
18. Someone else broke her heart and it’s still on her mind: Rebound. Not a fault of the injured party, but very high risk for the new bf. Proceed with extreme caution.
19. He liked taking risks, he was impulsive: Highly dependent on nature of risks. Helicopter skiing OK, driving drunk not OK. Spontaneous trip OK, shooting up heroin not OK. Worrisome only around destructive or irresponsible behaviors. Also about the match, though – I guess two heroin addicts could be good together, e.g. Jessie and Jane.
20. She invited attention from other men: Another three strikes and you’re out behavior. Point out that you have noticed this and don’t like it. Ask why she does it. Provide reassurance if that’s the issue. Move on if she’s an attention whore.
21. He lied to you: Depends on the size of the lie and its impact.
22. She had bitchy or slutty friends: Not a dealbreaker, but definitely worth thinking about. When good people choose to hang out with bad people, it’s a red flag.
23. He drank too much: Most likely an indication of immaturity as many guys between 18 and 30 drink too much. The question is whether he is willing to spend time sober with you, or he is hell bent on getting blackout every weekend.
24. She worked too much: Not a dealbreaker unless it signals her intention to make you a lower priority than her career. Can definitely strain a relationship, though, so it’s important to assess whether the long hours are temporary or permanent, e.g. medical residency vs. workaholic by nature.
25. You didn’t laugh at the same stuff: Not a dealbreaker, but awfully nice to have. Laughing together is one of my favorite aspects of marriage.
26. He blamed others when things didn’t go well: Contextual. OK if it is others’ fault. Not OK if this is his knee jerk response to all setbacks or failures.
27. She was focused on her next career move and you were not a priority: See #24. OK temporarily, probably won’t work out long-term.
28. He embarrassed you in front of other people: Three strikes and you’re out. Also contextual – did he put you down or did he get drunk and put a lampshade on his head? IOW, did he disrespect you or himself? The former is worse.
29. The sex wasn’t good for you: It’s your responsibility to speak up and work toward sex that pleases you. If he or she is not concerned with your pleasure, it’s a dealbreaker, but many couples work on figuring sex out over time.
30. They didn’t want you: Obviously you need to get the hell out of there immediately if they aren’t feeling it for you. If a person doesn’t want you, it’s not a match, obvs.
“13. He wasn’t working hard toward his future; he lacked a sense of purpose: Men might not mind this, IDK. For women it should be a dealbreaker.”
Well, if the woman wants to have kids, not work, and stay home with them, that’s certainly purpose.
Any interest in a career? The answer is No? Great!
Good to go!
Susan, I think “if only he would get a job” can indeed be a character issue, depending on the circumstances of his unemployment.
Also, “if only he were Jewish” (substitute any religion or ethnicity) can also be a dealbreaker depending on how important it is to that person. There are people who just really don’t want to marry outside their religion/community. For such people, falling in love with someone not like them can be quite painful. I’d advise them simlpy to stay out of those dating pools altogether.
Or, put it this way, if I were dating a Jewish girl and she were saying to herself “If only he were Jewish,” I’d want to know and I think we’d have to break up. I certainly would not want to marry her in spite of her doubts and endure some bad consequences later.
@Mosquito
For marriage too? I’m talking looooooonnnnggg-term commitment here.
@Hope
Do you have a pic? I’ll post it right here!
“For marriage too? I’m talking looooooonnnnggg-term commitment here.”
Long term commitment is all about deciding to be committed long term and then staying in the relationship.
It’s just an exercise in will.
@Ramble
True, but the female equivalent is an addiction to drama. Can’t believe I left that out, seeing as how I just wrote a post about it. Those are both worthy additions to the list.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of good people out there, but also a lot of selfish people who are not relationship material. Every week spent with the latter has considerable opportunity cost. Filter aggressively for bad news traits before you ever get into a relationship. If there are red flags in the first month, there is no way that should turn into a 6 or 12 month drama that ends badly. Tick tock tick tock.
JP: there are a few options available to the person who is spending life in Box #2.
1. Fully embrace the suck. Take pleasure in being a martyr or at least a cautionary tale to others.
2. Nuke the situation a la “Eat Pray Love/Beat Lay Move” and start over.
3. Grind through, seek temporary respite via sit-coms and escapist fiction, hope it all eventually pays off, look forward to retirement, etc.*
*This one seems to be popular.
“3. Grind through, seek temporary respite via sit-coms and escapist fiction, hope it all eventually pays off, look forward to retirement, etc.*”
This applies to lawyers, generally.
@Anacaona
I had the exact same experience. Also, my BFF is an ER doctor, and she told me that House is the most inaccurate medical show she’s ever seen. The writers literally do not care if the illnesses, diagnoses, etc. make sense.
@BB
I love your four box model. It would make a perfect matrix. Are you sure you didn’t work for BCG?
I think we can say that for most people, hookup culture is a Box 3 phenomenon. Even if a man or woman enjoys it, it can be “not good” for them in the sense that the partying and alcohol consumption that fosters it usually has negative effects on health, both mental and physical, as well as on academic performance. I’ve written about a study that looked at those things – people having casual sex were significantly more troubled in college than others, not necessarily all in the same way.
Yes, notice what is not on this list:
Good looks
Income
Nice car
Nice rack
Social dominance or popularity
Height or size
@Susan
re “For marriage too?”
http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2012/10/19/name-5-reasons-a-man-should-get-married/
As the Good Dr Helen says;
So…NO, not after the Red-Pill…except for very extenuating circumstances and a very exceptional woman.
YMMV
@LL
Welcome, thanks for leaving a comment!
I certainly don’t think it’s useful or helpful to start rationalizing a breakup, e.g. “He sucked anyway.” That’s not what I’m trying to do here. For one thing, as you say, that prevents introspection and without that we can’t learn anything useful as we move forward toward a new relationship (hopefully).
Based on what I’ve seen a lot of relationships, especially among very young people are fairly low in quality. For example, they are hard to come by in college, so women will often put up with a lot for the sake of saying that they and their regular hookup partner are now “dating.” There is often at least some ambivalence on the part of the male – many women use the “we’re in one or we’re done” ultimatum to get a relationship. However, that gets them a reluctant boyfriend, and that is reflected in the relationship. Emotional intimacy may be low, for example. There is also data that suggests that college students today cheat a lot more than people in relationships cheated two generations ago. The emotional ties are just not as strong, and there is continual temptation for some.
Haha, no I made a conscious decision years ago to avoid that style of writing.
oh, and there’s comedy gold in the comments on Dr Helen’s thread
Haha, that’s what some males have accused me of trying to do here.
@Escoffier
Agreed. Cue our fave example – Blue Valentine.
Yes, my point was that some of these filters are contextual. It’s not about judging someone as good or bad, it’s about whether they are the right person for you.
“As I think about it, I wonder in today’s anti-male climate, whether there are financial and legal reasons that a man would want to marry. Maybe I’m being too cynical here. Can readers help me out?”
To me it was always primary a moral driver.
Do I want to have sex? Yes.
Then I have to get married.
I never looked at marriage as a social or legal arrangement separate from the underling moral structure.
It does vary considerably.
“So a proposed activity will ideally fit into 1 of 4 boxes:
1. Enjoyable + Good for Me
2. Not Enjoyable + Good for Me
3. Enjoyable + Not Good for Me
4. Not Enjoyable + Not Good for Me”
You also have to think about overlying social/cultural/civilizational objectives.
What do I want the culture to look like? What ideals should be put in place?
Are there any specific cultures or sub-cultures that I feel need to be eliminated because they conflict with my idea of what the world should be like?
What am I trying to accomplish in terms of longer-term civlizational objectives for the next 200 – 400 years?
Basically, what do I want the future to look like?
“Do I want to have sex? Yes. Then I have to get married.”
Luckily, in this legal climate, NAMALT.
“I never looked at marriage as a social or legal arrangement separate from the underling moral structure.”
Best of luck with that.
As ‘other’ blogs say, the divorce rate amongst the religious really doesn’t differ from the norm by much. I guess if you’re in the right sect…roll those die
“It does vary considerably.”
clearly.
varied gender (from those whom the question was targetted)
varied generation from your target audience
varied current marital state
varied purely hypothetical vs your balls on the block
“Best of luck with that.
As ‘other’ blogs say, the divorce rate amongst the religious really doesn’t differ from the norm by much. I guess if you’re in the right sect…roll those die”
I’m really not that religious, more of a moral absolutist than anything else.
I think I’m my own sect.
““As I think about it, I wonder in today’s anti-male climate, whether there are financial and legal reasons that a man would want to marry. Maybe I’m being too cynical here. Can readers help me out?”
Hahaha, there aren’t any on my list of reasons.
Financial and legal reason are both things that I have a desire to marry in spite of.
“I think I’m my own sect.”
I would say that that would give you a lot of flexibility, but in your case, probably not…but best of luck, everyone gets to set their own way.
I can think of one reason for a man to get married – to avoid a relatively meaningless existence.
Sadly, that’s a negative reason, not a positive one. But a career, even a fine one, is no substitute. Eventually everyone has to come to grips with the idea that no one ever met death wishing he had spent more time at the office.
” no one ever met death wishing he had spent more time at the office.”
Or, that they wish they had spent more of the twenties single.
“” no one ever met death wishing he had spent more time at the office.”
Or, that they wish they had spent more of the twenties single.”
The real problem with life is that it can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
I certainly wouldn’t have made most of the life choices I made knowing what I know now, but at the time you simply don’t know what you are doing, so you end up making horrible choices.
I would *love* to have my 20′s back to live over again.
@Joe
I can understand wanting meaning in life, but I really do not see any meaning inherent to marriage.
Everyone, both sexes, ought to ask “what’s in it for me?”. Then they need to look very closely at those reasons. And make sure that they were realistic and applicable.
The link I gave had 500ish comments, I didn’t read them all, but I saw nothing persuasive. YMMV. Some of the answers were from the 50% who were still married, some of them liked it, some described misery. The other 50%? not so keen at all.
“I would *love* to have my 20′s back to live over again.”
Yeah, me too, but ‘back in the day’.
I wouldn’t want to be in my twenties now. It’s very hard to know how to plan for the future when the future is so uncertain.
Susan, you say, “I certainly don’t think it’s useful or helpful to start rationalizing a breakup, e.g. “He sucked anyway.” That’s not what I’m trying to do here.”
But earlier, you said, “The list is written for the woman who has already been rejected and is in pain. By definition, if she has been rejected he wasn’t right for her.”
And from the post itself, I thought this was mostly based upon the bolded parts of the quote in my first comment, which basically indicates looking back at what happened and realizing that the person, whether you were the dumper or dumpee (but especially the dumpee), wasn’t right for you.
But depending on which position you are taking (the one breaking up or the one being kicked to the curb), this list is either a checklist of what are acceptable reasons to get rid of someone or justifications why it was ok and how you should just accept the failed relationship because “he sucked anyway.” I am having a hard time reconciling the two, disparate reasonings here.
If it is a pre-dumping list, I concur with some of the men that this is not a good way to look at things. Looking for reasons to get rid of someone should be reason alone to just move on, and to honestly say the relationship has run its course. If it’s afterwards and you’re looking back, it appears to be either a way to explain to yourself that it’s ok because x, y, z reasons, or it can be a way to look back at yourself and ask yourself why you accepted his drinking, his ignorance, his gauche behavior or whatever and readjust what you are looking for in the future. But from the original post and throughout comments, I’m losing which point was the primary.
@Ana
31. His mama/relatives hated you.
It seems that family doesn’t meddle in this things in America as much but in my culture it will destroy any relationship sooner or later unless the people involved are really firm about having their relationship off limits.
That’s true overall, but even in America you can still stumble into crazy in- laws. Mine were troubled and people, and they liked to share that around.
Re Dr. Helen
She is desperate to get married,” said the hairdresser. “What’s in it just for him?” I asked. She couldn’t think of anything.
Dr. Helen panders to this stuff a lot. I can think of two reasons for the guy to marry his babymama– his two kids that he’s responsible to.
I’m the only one that got bored with House?
No. After the 3rd season or so, I stopped watching. Also, all of the added drama was simply not needed. The best parts were when House tore down “nice” people. And then when Wilson would mock House.
“Dr. Helen panders to this stuff a lot. I can think of two reasons for the guy to marry his babymama– his two kids that he’s responsible to.”
He’s there, he’s looking after them, what does marriage add for him?
Part of the Red-Pill is not subordinating your interests for no reason.
Marriage is a greater risk for the man, so why should he do it unless there are some gains?
And shaming isn’t very effective anymore, for either (unmarried father / unmarried mother) sex. (slut walks etc too)
For me, the difference between Self Involvement and “Addiction to Drama” is splitting hairs. So, yeah.
J, I am curious. If you were one of those babies (and assuming that he did then marry her for that reason) and you knew that your married parents did not love one another (it was fairly obvious) and that they married for the children, would you have preferred they got married or that they had not gotten married?
@LL
I’m sorry, I can see how that is confusing. Here’s how I envisioned it when I wrote the post, which was inspired by a couple of unhappy young women IRL:
The first step is in realizing that this ending is a good thing in the long term because this guy was not right for you. If you are honest with yourself, you will recall there were some red flags that you chose to ignore or hoped would improve. They did not, and now he has ended the relationship. This is a gift of sorts, because you are now free to spend time and energy seeking a better match, and you are no longer preoccupied with a relationship that really wasn’t going to work out for keeps.
The second step is to take what you’ve learned from this failed relationship and use that information as you move forward. What would you do differently if you had to do it again? Where did you fall short? Where did he? Or did you learn that you just can’t be with someone who thinks The Three Stooges is the best comedy ever written? Or that it’s not going to work for you to be with someone from a very different culture, because you learned that some of their traditions conflict with your own beliefs? Etc.
In short, the list is written now for the dumpee, but should be printed and slipped into her wallet when she gets back out there.
31) The problem, really is you! He/she was just too nice to say so.
@Ramble,
Ramble, I know you asked J, but I’m sticking my nose in anyway.
If I was one of those kids what I *wouldn’t* want is for my parents to stay in this eternal limbo of “will he ever legally commit or not?”
Because there are about a million unspoken things that these children are learning about relationships from their parents’ actions. I would much rather have them (the parents) put their cards down on the table:
How are you going to raise our children? What kind of relationship are we modelling for them? Do we want them to have the same kind or something different? If so, what?
I suspect the answers are so divergent that it makes both parties uncomfortable and so they just avoid it all. Meanwhile, the kids are like sponges, absorbing every bit.
If I was the mom, I would much rather know the truth. If a guy is not wanting to marry you after birthing two of his children, it doesn’t sound like he is that interested in being a devoted father. I would have to ask myself very difficult questions and proceed in their children’s best interest.
Oops, just realized there is bunch of weird syntax between your/our, their/the. But hopefully the general idea is clear!
“Dr. Helen panders to this stuff a lot. I can think of two reasons for the guy to marry his babymama– his two kids that he’s responsible to.”
The financial and legal obligations to care for offspring would not keep me married.
To me, those are consequences for not doing so.
I fully intend to everything to avoid having a failed marriage, but if there isn’t intimacy, a whole slew of financial and legal consequences could not keep me from breaking that goal.
Maybe another male commenter can elaborate on this better.
I guess what I’m trying to say is the obligation to children would never be able to be substituted for the reasons I wanted to in the first place.
In China having a child out of wedlock is just not an option. I guess I internalized that cultural stigma even though I immigrated to the US.
http://www.noweddingnowomb.com/in-china-it-is-illegal-to-have-a-child-out-of-wedlock-jo-gan-of-life-behind-the-wall-event-post/
@Hope:
“In China having a child out of wedlock is just not an option. I guess I internalized that cultural stigma even though I immigrated to the US.”
Illegitimate/bastard children used to be strongly disfavored in the U.S.
I don’t know what changed this, honestly, since it seemed to work.
“In common law, legitimacy is the status of a child born to parents who are legally married to each other; and of a child that is born soon after the parents’ divorce. Conversely, illegitimacy (or bastardy) is the status of a child conceived outside marriage. The consequences of illegitimacy have pertained mainly to a child’s rights of inheritance to the putative father’s estate and the child’s right to bear the father’s surname or title. Illegitimacy has also had consequences for the mother’s and child’s right to support from the putative father”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(law)
There seems to be some commingling between hooking up and relationships and that is where the women get led astray. I understand that is the whole purpose of this blog, but I’m a brutal realist. You get what you deserve especially if you are willing to put up with certain treatment or behaviors from men, so the whole heartbroken whining afterwards elicits very little sympathy from me.
Thanks for clarifying, Susan.
This list doesn’t seem that bad to me. I can sort of see why people have complaints – Lord knows, the last thing most women (probably men too, but I never tried to date one) need is another excuse to be coltish – but most of the line-items are reasonable, or are at least reasonable given the stated goals of the site. Most of it should be boilerplate for any relationship (which is, I think, the point).
#4 is iffy, because most people have terrible judgment. But it isn’t without wisdom – if most people have bad judgement, you’re better off going with your bad judgement than someone else’s. I’ve seen too many friendships end that way.
#5 is good policy, and I even disagree with the clarifications. I’m male, and all of 5’7. That’s too short for some women (and that’s fine; I’ve DQ’d women for shallow reasons before). It doesn’t make you a terrible person if you need a man to be 5’10 to find him attractive. It doesn’t even make you terrible if you need them to be 6’2 – kinda foolish, because that’s starting to get pretty rare, but not bad. And even if it did, denying those preferences wouldn’t change that. It would just make you a terrible and miserable person. It’s okay to have any preference, just make sure you know that such things have to be balanced (don’t demand tall and rich and brilliant; don’t demand gorgeous and busty and awesome cooking). Of course, that does make you wonder why they got involved with someone who didn’t pass muster to begin with, but hey, we all like to think that we’re better people than we actually are.
#13, is a little simplistic. It’s not enough to be driven, you both have to mesh on where you want to go and how fast you want to get there. For instance, I am in the nuclear industry. That did not at all go over well when I tried, once, to hit on a hippie girl.
I think #17 is mostly okay until you hit 25 or so.
Like I said, I get the complaints. I don’t really get the hostility, though. If you disagree, then hey, what do I know? I’m just a lurker anyway!
Just a quick comment as someone who is a product of a nasty divorce: the purpose of marriage is to provide a stable environment for children to grow up in. Love doesn’t have to be forever, and if the marriage does falter, you want to be in it with someone who will put the welfare of the children ahead of their own.
The only way to evaluate this is to wait and see how someone handles adversity. If they bail when the going gets tough, they aren’t parent material.
>> “I am searching for foundation/concealer that won’t break me out and hope to stop by a Bare Escentials store soon.”
Every person’s different, but I really like the Revlon Colorstay Foundation. I tend to use the “Dry Skin” one in the winter and the “Oily Skin” one in the summer.
Hey Jackie,
From what I can tell, the mother already knows the truth: She is desperate to get married and the man is most definitely not.
From the quote:
The cards are already on the table and the mother is desperate for this man to marry her.
So, this is why I had asked J about it. How good is it for these children to be raised by, once unmarried (and, I am presuming, not living together), and now married parents? (“Now married” if they follow J’s advice)
I don’t know the answer. However, from what I have seen, I am guessing the children are better off if their parents, in this situation, don’t get married. Granted, as far as I can tell from reading the story, these kids are in a lose-lose situation. Their mother failed at the most important decision she will ever make: who do I spread my legs for?
Here is the original quote(s) for reference that begged the question:
In the legal sense, J is absolutely correct: “I can think of two reasons for the guy to marry his babymama– his two kids that he’s responsible to. ”
If the guy was not named as the father on the birth certificates, and the mother died, the guy would not have any legal rights to the children. That is just the basics. If he is not legally a guardian, he wouldn’t be able to sign for them in hospitals, register them for school, etc. All sorts of things are more complicated when parents are not married.
I just added our son as a beneficiary on my life insurance. Life is full of little administrative stuff like this.
Not to mention, whose last name do the kids have? It’s so much simpler when I have my husband’s last name, and our boy has the same last name.
Very possible! I wish people weren’t too nice – we could all use a good, honest exit interview on the way out.
@LL
Fair enough.
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