So you’re happy to see me!
LYSISTRATA:
There are a lot of things about us women
That sadden me, considering how men
See us as rascals.
CALONICE:
As indeed we are!
Emily Esfahani Smith has a Plan to Reboot Dating in The Atlantic, calling on women to implement the Lysistrata strategy as a way of ending hookup culture. (Hat tip: Stuart Schneiderman) I first became aware of Smith via her excellent article HBO’s ‘Girls’ depicts wasteland of sexual promiscuity. (She’s doing incredibly well for someone who graduated from Dartmouth in ’09.) Though a feminist, Smith disagrees with Hannah Rosin’s recent assertions:
Rosin argues that the social progress of women depends on the hook-up culture. Women in their 20s and 30s are, for the first time, more successful than their male peers. These alpha females not only outnumber men on college campuses, they have also overtaken men as the majority of the work force. This would not have been possible without sexual liberation, which has let women delay marriage and child-rearing to pursue their educational and career ambitions without worrying about the emotional burdens of a relationship. Women are better off in part because of the hook-up culture, the argument goes.
Smith then goes on to offer evidence (all of which I have previously covered here) that most women are pretty miserable in hookup culture:
- Part of the reason the culture is so widespread is, as Rosin correctly notes, because women are choosing to have casual sex. But in another respect, they don’t have a choice. Women make the hook-up culture possible, but men are the beneficiaries of it.
- The balance of power in the hook-up culture lies with the men, an issue that has become more pronounced as women outnumber men on campuses, creating a surplus of girls and a scarcity of guys…Robert Epstein, a professor of psychology at Harvard and an expert in relationships, said in an interview with me that the more women there are on campus, the more prevalent the hook-up culture is: “You have a situation in which relationships are bound to fail and men keep switching off from one woman to the next.”
- The feminist sociologist Lisa Wade, based at Occidental College…found that most of [her freshman students] were “overwhelmingly disappointed with the sex they were having in hook ups. This was true of both men and women, but was felt more intensely by women. College women today feel disempowered instead of empowered by sexual encounters. They didn’t feel like equals on the sexual playground, more like jungle gyms.”
- According to a2010 study by Carolyn Bradshaw of James Madison University, only 2 percent of women strongly prefer the hook-up culture to a dating culture.
- Miriam Grossman, author of the 2006 book Unprotected, reports that women long for emotional involvement with their partner twice as often as men following a hook up; 91 percent of women experience regret; 80 percent of women wish the hook-up hadn’t happened; and 34 percent of women hope the hook-up develops into a relationship.
- NYU sociologist Paula England, whom Rosin cites, says that 66 percent of women and 58 percent of men want their hook up to develop into “something more.”
- A 2010 psychology study out of Florida State University found that students who have casual sex experience more physical and mental health problems, defined as eating disorders, alcohol use, stress, depression, suicidal feelings, than those who are in committed long-term relationships.
Sexual liberation may be indispensable to female progress, but the hook-up culture is not empowering for all women. This isn’t to say that early marriage or abstinence is the solution. But these are not the only alternatives to the hook-up culture, either. There is a middle way: meaningful sex in the context of a non-marital relationship.
In other words, the solution is a dating culture, which still allows women to delay marriage and pursue their careers, and also lets them have those intimate relationships with men that they don’t want to delay.
This puts Smith and me squarely on the same page, as this reflects my own views about what constitutes potentially achievable change. Smith spoke with a woman on staff at Dartmouth’s Women’s Center, who began their discussion by saying this:
The point of hooking up is for both people to get something out of it. If it’s to get off, then that’s great. . . . If it’s to work some issue out—like sexual assault—then that’s great. It’s basically to get pleasure and enjoyment out of it . . . the hook-up culture is good for experimentation, and what someone does for experimentation is up to them.
…I don’t think [love is] necessary. Yeah, you know—it’s nice. But if you’re talking about sex and the hook-up culture, it’s not needed. The point of the hook-up culture is not to get attached—no strings attached.
Aside from the deeply disturbing idea that hooking up is a good way to get past the trauma of sexual assualt, it turns out this woman doesn’t even believe in the politics she’s spewing, as she goes on to say that hooking up certainly was never right for her.
Smith retorts:
Hooking up, in fact, shares the defining feature of a sexual assault: using another person for your own sexual gratification, without any regard as to what that person wants or how he or she feels. The philosopher Immanuel Kant—who warns against using another person as a mere means to some end—was closer to the truth than many of today’s sexual health experts when he wrote that sex “taken by itself … is a degradation of human nature.”
…One friend tells me that the girls on campus would prefer a culture of dating to one of hooking up, but they would never admit it or ask for it. If girls demanded dating before hooking up, guys would be unmoved, she explained. “There are always going to be other girls for them to hook up with so we’ll just get left behind.”
These women are looking at the problem the wrong way, I think. They need to realize that, in spite of campus sex ratios and prevailing cultural trends, they hold the power when it comes to the hook up culture. They hold the power when it comes to sex.
This was the insight of Lysistrata, the shrewd heroine of Aristophanes’ marvelous play by the same name. Lysistrata was able to diagnose a problem in her society and to take actions and overcome obstacles to solve it.
For those who have not read the ancient Greek play, it was written in 411 BCE, and is a comedy where one woman convinces all the other wives to withhold sex from their husbands as a way of pressuring them to achieve peace and end the Peloponnesian War. Hilarity ensues as men stumble around with obvious erections, and ultimately they agree to initiate peace talks.
Lysistrata has been a feminist favorite, as it celebrates the power of women over men, who appear to do all their thinking with their dicks. However, it also portrays women as using their own genitals to get what they want. There is perhaps some truth in both of these caricatures, as evidenced by the play’s popularity for 2,400 years.
I first mentioned Lysistrata as a possible model for change years ago here at HUS, but readily acknowledged that such a plan could never work. The strategy amounts to the creation of a cartel, where a small group of suppliers agrees to fix prices in order to share the wealth rather than drive one another out of business via competition. Cartels are notoriously unstable, because at any time one member can defect, drop the price, and scoop up all the demand for a larger short-term gain. The incentive to cheat is great.
To deal with hookup culture, the Lysistrata strategy would be effective only if all female participants (hardly a small group of suppliers) agreed to stop having casual sex, demanding commitment of some form in exchange for sex. We do not need to look very far to find women staunchly defending their right and desire to hook up, whether to pursue physical pleasure freely without judgment or to defend the political stance of feminists. In fact, what we have now is a free market where a small group of women offers sex for free (see: cow, milk) and a small group of men has access to that supply.
While some of those women are clearly distressed by their inability to obtain girlfriend status from their hookups, they have bet on hooking up as a better road to commitment than sitting out, and they are unlikely to forfeit the male attention they currently receive in hopes of making things better for everyone. Raising the price of sex would invite greatly increased competition from all the women not hooking up much, weakening the bargaining power of promiscuous women, limited though it is.
However, I do think there is value in the Lysistrata concept with some adaptation. If all of the women currently not benefiting from hookup culture in any way (obviously a large majority) were to declare their unwillingness to participate and play by those rules, it would serve two purposes:
1. It would explode the myth that basically everybody is hooking up regularly and feels comfortable doing it, which is prevalent on college campuses.
2. It would identify the women who are interested in a more traditional dating model where emotional intimacy precedes physical intimacy.
In other words, this move would clearly identify the dissatisfied 80+% of females. Their unhappy male counterparts would have an opportunity to bring back the date. Of course, some of the women only want the players to take them on dates, but that isn’t going to happen. They’re probably better off continuing to hook up and snag whatever crumbs of affection and attention they can from men who have no desire or incentive to offer anything in return for sex.
Lysistrata isn’t quite right, we need something more along the lines of Take Back the Date Night. But I do think Smith is onto something here – if most women don’t dig it, there’s real potential for a shift.
I’ll be giving this more thought, perhaps reaching out to campus groups, associations of university women, etc. All suggestions are welcome!
{ 858 comments… read them below or add one }
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@OTC
See my dissection of it here:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/10/15/relationshipstrategies/this-is-the-era-of-nuclear-rejections/comment-page-13/
#1940, 1945
IMO the (self-selected) survey only proved what women who choose to participate on O.K. Cupid think about men who choose to participate on O.K. Cupid. The website certainly didn’t provide very complete or transparent information to analyze.
There wasn’t a low response rate for males. There were over 500 returned surveys on 1,500 randomly sent out. It may be that gay males skewed the numbers – that would be my guess.
@Deti
“All I wanted to know about was girl on girl peer pressure affecting a woman’s decision to have sex. And leave aside the issue of a girl’s virginity. What about a woman’s being pressured to have sex again and again, with different men?”
====
Deti,
Any kind of “pressure” used by chicks is via social disapproval. Basically they would just drop you as a friend and/or make fun of you (snide comments) before they would say, Sleep around or you can’t be our friend! Most likely, they will just talk crap behind your back and ignore you.
And “pressure” pales in comparison to what you get from a guy in my experience.
BREAKING PATRAEUS NEWS:
Petraeus shocked at girlfriend’s email to friend.
“WASHINGTON (AP) – Ex-CIA director David Petraeus has told friends he was shocked to find that his biographer and girlfriend, Paula Broadwell, was suspected of sending anonymous, threatening emails to a Petraeus friend she saw as a romantic rival.”"
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=289&sid=3113768&pid=0&page=1
Thanks, Jackie. That answers my question.
@Lokland
Sorry about that, all of those went straight to the spam filter, which is odd b/c you are Whitelisted. Let’s hope it was a fluke. I’ll keep an eye out.
@Deti
You are most welcome, Deti.
What would you like for your daughter as she starts dating?
So few women are doing that it seems clear that peer pressure would not explain it. I believe those women arrive at college and immediately start engaging in self-destructive behavior a la Karen Owen. There are several factors that correlate to that behavior in women, including parental divorce, poor relationship with father, low self-esteem, etc.
I’ve also noticed that the most promiscuous often don’t have many girlfriends. They’re almost rogues, they rely on men almost entirely for their social life, perhaps have one friend they arrive with, knowing it will be a guy they leave with.
Jackie:
Thanks. I’ll leave this here, and then duck out. Mike C, Ted, Esco and Abbot have been making themselves scarce, and I think I probably should do the same.
I am not sure what you mean by “what do I want for my daughter as she begins dating”, since it’s not going to happen for a few years. I want her to be able to stand up to peer pressure. I want her to be able to do her own thing. When she has questions, I want her to bring them to her mother and me, not to her girlfriends who know a lot less than I do.
Bye all.
Sue: “It is a false statement that a lot of women will take a hot guy for a night, period. We’re talking 2 or 3% of the population. Do you think that’s a lot?”
The amount of women who have *ever* had a one night stand has to be far more than 3%. You have, I have. Perhaps you mean the ones that *continuously* do so is that low? I honestly have no good stats, so it is an honest question.
Yep. They’re also more likely to say, “I don’t like girls/girls can be so bitchy.”
Men think she’s misunderstood, but girls see her for what she really is. I believe the term was “female dog-whistle”? We covered it before in some previous HUS thread.
Deti – ” I want her to be able to stand up to peer pressure. I want her to be able to do her own thing. When she has questions, I want her to bring them to her mother and me, not to her girlfriends who know a lot less than I do.”
Cosign all of this. But I’ll tell you, IMO this is a damn difficult thing to accomplish, for girls AND boys. I was never a social butterfly, and I have always been OK with not being one of the “herd” or “pack” although I’ve always had a few very close friendships. I have a very difficult time understanding how social pressure can make someone do something that is against their nature and/0r morality, but clearly peer pressure has a very large impact on the vast majority of people.
I don’t know what the answer is. I certainly want my kids to be well adjusted and socially “smart” enough to survive, but to me it seems teaching them what they need to withstand peer pressure actually works against them being “social”, since part of being social is conforming to the standards of the “herd”. And in my experience it takes a very mature person to be able to not care about “being liked”. As Olive pointed out, it seems immaturity is an increasing issue in the late teen/early 20′s crowd.
Some days I feel like I’m trying to invent faster-than-light travel when determining a best course of action for my children. I can spend all day tinkering with a program because breaking it only means I have to fix it. But “tinkering” with my kids is in no way an appealing course of action, and looking back at my own childhood I’m not too confident in the “model” of parenting I grew up with. Not a dig at my mother or grandparents in the least. But the fact is my childhood parenting situation was far from ideal.
Mega: “IMO the (self-selected) survey only proved what women who choose to participate on O.K. Cupid think about men who choose to participate on O.K. Cupid. The website certainly didn’t provide very complete or transparent information to analyze.”
Sure, I can buy selection bias. But this means we have to throw out all surveys that are not scientifically sampled, including the one that says 33%/40% of men would lie to get a relationship, right?
Correction: lie about a relationship to get sex.
Escoffier is not making himself scarce, he’s just a busy guy. He sometimes caucuses with you guys but is reliably issue-focused rather than partisan.
@deti
“All I wanted to know about was girl on girl . . .”
Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. Girls, fess up!
I was responding to this exchange:
Jackie: To me, a hot guy can be valued aesthetically, but it’s like appreciating a picture on the wall. There is no emotional connection beyond that aesthetic appreciation.”
deti: I get that’s how you see it. But a lot of women will take that hot guy for a night if that’s what they can get, it seems to me. And if they can’t get him for a lifetime, a night or three is good enough.
IOW, deti is suggesting that a lot of women see a hot guy and try to have sex with him. More of a pattern than a one-off deal.
I don’t know what percentage of women in general have had ONSs. The closest that we have for college students is that 26% of women have had intercourse during a hookup. However, we don’t know if it was one time, a repeated hookup, or even prefacing a relationship.
@Ted D:
“And in my experience it takes a very mature person to be able to not care about “being liked”. ”
Or complete confidence in themselves.
Which I can assure you is not the same thing as maturity.
Ted, good to see you haven’t left us after all.
With all due respect deti — and I mean this sincerely and kindly — short of locking your daughter in the basement every day after school, this will not happen. If she has a good bond with her parents, the most you can hope for is that she will take your advice into consideration *in addition* to the information she receives from her peers. That is really the best-case scenario.
One final note: parents do not “decide” when it is appropriate for their children to date. You only decide when it is acceptable for your children to bring their dating lives above-ground.
@Passerby, deti
“@deti
“All I wanted to know about was girl on girl . . .”
Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. Girls, fess up! ”
Pudding on the way!
@SayWhaat:
“One final note: parents do not “decide” when it is appropriate for their children to date. You only decide when it is acceptable for your children to bring their dating lives above-ground.”
That depends on the child’s perceived level of parental authority.
I know that I was 100% compliant, without question, until I was 18.
After all, only bad people disobeyed their parents, whose word was law.
@OTC
Throw out? No. I’m not even suggesting that the O.K. Cupid survey be thrown out. Just considered WRT its own limitations.
From what I’ve read, Madison’s methods weren’t strictly scientific, though she did sample a large number of men in 10 metropolitan cities. I’m willing to accept that her findings paint a pretty good picture of the attitudes of single men in those particular cities. Beyond that, I wouldn’t use it to generalize at all.
@SayWhaat:
“One final note: parents do not “decide” when it is appropriate for their children to date. You only decide when it is acceptable for your children to bring their dating lives above-ground.”
It also depends on the level of sanction.
For example, the parents could be severe enough that any violation results in cessation of all financial support going forward.
@Ladies
Hypothetical question.
If a woman is easily peer pressured into X pre-boyfriend.
Is there any reason she will not be pressured into X with boyfriend.
Hypothetically, a woman who is easily pressed into casual sex is just as likely to have the same thing occur during a relationship unless having a boyfriend grants her a backbone.
Comments?
Deti,
Sorry to see you’re heading out, but wanted to catch your comments addressed to me in case you happen to check back.
Sorry ’bout that. You said this:
I interpreted “women” as “most or all women.” My mistake.
A few things about this. Setting aside the notions of “pack” vs. “herd” mentality for the moment, I’m of the opinion that women, more than men, act as a group. I kind of skimmed the thread, but I noticed Jackie had mentioned keeping the more “promiscuous” friends at bay, to avoid influence, and I think she’s very correct about that. Your closest friends are going to share your values, and if you’re a sexually conservative girl in a group of promiscuous girls, you’re going to be excluded. The pain of exclusion is worse, in the moment, than breaking your own personal code of conduct, so you go against your own values for the sake of the group. Which is a very basic herd mechanism of course: convincing the outsider to join and give up her own values in the name of embracing the group’s values. The herd in and of itself is not the problem (Anacaona taught me that!), it’s the values; and many female herds today celebrate sex-pozzy-ism.
It’s interesting that SayWhaat and I both had similar abroad experiences; when you study abroad, you’re thrown together with people you may not necessarily come into contact with outside of the program. Of course PC culture would consider the “exposure to diverse ideas” a good thing. Hmm.
No bullets man. Admittedly, I get grouchy when I see people bringing up the old cock carousel debate, if only because I know it’s bound to spark a boring round-and-round.
@Olive:
“It’s interesting that SayWhaat and I both had similar abroad experiences; when you study abroad, you’re thrown together with people you may not necessarily come into contact with outside of the program.”
Same thing happens in college, generally.
My first college roomate was an alcoholic felon (who happened to have a full scholarship).
He would pee in the hallway and rip off the screen to get in through the window when he lost his card.
It was kind of like being in the movie Animal House now that I think about it.
@ JP:
Ha, this is true. I was certainly the most “rebellious” in my peer group growing up, according to my parents. My parents constantly told me how bad I was in comparison with all the other sweet girls.
What the other parents of those sweet girls didn’t know is that they all had boyfriends, even though they were expressly forbidden from dating.
Maybe, I guess it depends on your social situation. The pool of people is significantly less in most study abroad programs. I did two programs: one had 6 students, the other had 10.
Not likely, no. She’s probably MORE susceptible to her BF’s pressure, because he is her pipeline of male validation and the source of her status wrt female validation.
This is a big reason why some girls stay in abusive relationships, btw. J can probably expand on this as well.
Lokland,
A fabulous question, and it really comes down to the girl’s feelings about the boyfriend, IMO. A strong enough herd can convince a weak enough girl to dump the guy. The girls in my college herd weren’t really excited about my BF and practically cheered when I thought about breaking it off. Several months later, I’d said goodbye to the herd.
Yep. It was an eye-opening experience, to say the least. Like the part of high school I never experienced, plus more drugs.
Interesting… this is consistent with what I’ve observed, as well. Under the perception that “good men” are extremely rare (I don’t agree), I’ve seen one or two women put up with all kinds of crap.
Kind of related, but I recall reading somewhere in all the social science that pressure to put out is extremely potent in high school. Most girls lose their V-card before graduating, and something like 50% or more reported feeling heavily pressured by their BFs. To some extent, that’s just teen boys being boys, but girls reported quite a bit of regret, or that it happened “too soon” for them.
Interesting theory about the more doglike looking wolves being expelled. That would speak to acceptance being based on appearance as opposed to functional ability.
Or say that in canids, changes in appearance signal that changes in behavior are also occuring? Ever hear of the Russian domestic fox program? Some Russian fur breeders were attempting to breed foxes that would be easier to raise for their fur; foxes apparently are nasty little biters. When they started breeding foxes for sweter temperment, they found that their coars were ruined for the fur industry as coat patterns began to look more “doggy.” They’ve recently began selling them as exotic pets. Take a look at these: http://www.domesticfox.com/#!photos Some have spots; some look a bit like shelties or pomeranians.
As to the boy-on-boy bullying, is that more because of how ADHD boys behave or look
That is an interesting question. I personally can sometimes identify ADHD and Aspergers boys at a glance. They both have a particular look to me–not all but some.
What about high school or college cliques? Are sororities more discriminating on looks than frats? It would seem that male cliques are more accepting of lesser looking males if they have something else (athletic ability, charisma, expertise amongst more nerdy cliques, etc.).
IDK. It would make an interesting study though. I think better looking people are better accepted by others overall.
So that brings back the question, what is the difference then between herds and packs?
Size? Function? Predator vs. prey?
Are they both as demanding of conformance and submission to their zeitgeist and behavior?
IDK, maybe in different ways?
Susan – I didn’t know I was missing. Lol
Busy day. Trying to get to a point where I can start working primarily from my own office again. Driving 20 miles each way to a client site is starting to wear thin. I miss my 15 minute morning commute…
“Kind of related, but I recall reading somewhere in all the social science that pressure to put out is extremely potent in high school. Most girls lose their V-card before graduating, and something like 50% or more reported feeling heavily pressured by their BFs. To some extent, that’s just teen boys being boys, but girls reported quite a bit of regret, or that it happened “too soon” for them.”
I’m guessing most boys would report feeling pressured into relationships without sex, and that sex happened “too late” for them.
@ OTC
You don’t have to be religious for this type of PI. Being Asian can have the same effect.
@ Susan
And I’ve said before that I believe the second theory is the case. Being “in the trenches” so to speak with the sexually inexperienced males, I can say that at least half of whatever action they are getting is from sluts.
I sure as fuck felt pressured into relationships in high school. There was one girl I only dated because I thought she was suicidal (don’t ask, it made sense at the time), then there was one very, VERY large girl that my friend tried to set me up with for like 6 months, and I had to endure her emailing me every day.
Then again, I also felt pressured into being more sexual than I actually wanted to be, too. There was one particular incident involving a cross country team…
@ Jackie
Sorry. I was being overly facetious. Wrong crowd for that kind of nerd humor.
Anyway, thanks for the high-five!
For the millionth time, YOU NEED TO STOP LOOKING AT COLLEGE STATS ONLY. Your stats should end at the average marrying age. I guarantee that the partner number climbs a huge amount in this time span.
“I miss my 15 minute morning …”
And here was I getting ready to sympathize with the fact that you were missing out on a bit of morning glory, with the wife, Ted.
Mind you, having to drive 20 miles to a site every morning WOULD leave you very little time to have a game of sink the sausage.
Unless of course you were an (exceptionally) early riser. Ha!
@ OTC
Especially when you consider that so many evo-psych studies are done by recruiting college students, especially from liberal arts classes.
The people that you end up surveying are those not savvy enough to duck the guys with the clipboards
@zKathy
“Only a selfish woman who does not give two hoots about her husband would not know anything about his interests and wishes.”
I second everything the married ladies have said here. A husband and wife have the most intimate relationship there is; how could they not know or learn each others interests, tastes and desires?
Kathy – every morning would be a good morning! But my wife is a medical assistant and most mornings she is up and out the door before I get up and push the kids out of bed for school.
We make up for it on the weekends.
@IntJ
So, which of those that Susan’s cited would you throw out, again?
My alcoholic felon roommate also did this once. Except he survived.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/12/15114938-denver-cop-fatally-shoots-man-wielding-samurai-sword?lite
Whoo….read back on this, realized it didn’t come out right.
What I meant to say was that J could probably expand on the idea because IIRC she has worked with disadvantaged youth and could therefore speak more to the observation and Lokland’s initial question.
Damn, sometimes brevity can really backfire, lol.
Millionth time? This doesn’t even ring a bell. Why would I not look at college stats in a post about female action on college campuses?
As for your guarantee, got a link?
@J
That’s interesting about the foxes bred for tameness not having as beautiful of fur. Some of them in the pictures didn’t look as foxy (not that I’m an expert in foxes or anything lol).
I definitely felt the pressure to lose my V-plates as I was one of the last among my girlfriends & we were the queen bees so you can imagine how much of an issue it was. Even now, as I am single and don’t do ONS .. the girls will give me so much grief about not having had sex for ages – It just makes me laugh now though, I know they love me to bits & I quite like being the different one in the bunch. However, it was a different story in high school. When our culture encourages liberal sexuality, its very hard to listen to your intuition & hold off – particularly when: the boys are pushing you to do it, you are naive, innocent and have no idea + your hormones are running rampant. I imagine it is only getting harder for young girls too.
On a semi-related note .. to the father’s of daughters, I think it’s quite important to exhibit beta-behaviour in front of your girls in order to ensure she ends up with someone who will take good care of her. One of the biggest challenges for me in becoming aware of the types of men who make good partners has been overcoming my very deeply ingrained preference for extremely alpha men .. as my dad is about as alpha as they get, almost to the point of a caricature. It’s quite a battle let me tell you.. but I see my GF’s who have father’s who are really affectionate, emotional, involved in daughter’s life all have found men who are similar & take good care of them!
But this goes into the whole nature vs. nurture debate. If it is due to nurture, i.e. seeing your dad behave alpha when you grow up causes you to be attracted to alpha guys like him, then it makes sense for dads to exhibit beta behavior around their daughters. But if it is due to nature, i.e. your mom was attracted to your alpha dad, and you, inheriting her genes, are also attracted to alpha guys, then behaving more beta isn’t going to help. In that case, behaving more beta will simply cause the mom to lose attraction for the dad (in red pill terms, men becoming more beta during marriage is considered equivalent to women letting themselves go during marriage).
@INTJ
You make a good point & I guess there is no way of knowing for sure unless my Dad suddenly did a 180 .. which I doubt will ever happen. I definitely think it can’t hurt father’s to act beta with their daughters though – as girls really do measure every man by the standards their Dad set. So even if my attraction to the super alphas is genetic (…lucky me) if my Dad had been beta, I would have two different measures of manhood that I would be drawn to. Hopefully then as I grew wiser, the beta option would grow more and more attractive.
It’s funny sometimes how similar the female HUS commenters can be in such random ways.
Not really we already did the Myer-Briggs test before and found out a huge concentration of similar types, it seems that blogs are very self selective (which explain a lot if you think about it) is very likely we share a lot of more things. I was surprised to find out that hope shops at Ross dress for less as I do, or that a lot of us girls are Sailor Moon fans. I’m sure if we started to collect more info we will find out that we are more similar than what we think we are, YMMV.
Any kind of “pressure” used by chicks is via social disapproval. Basically they would just drop you as a friend and/or make fun of you (snide comments) before they would say, Sleep around or you can’t be our friend! Most likely, they will just talk crap behind your back and ignore you.
Some examples of female pressure for the guys here curious
*Eyeroll of shame
*Discarding any opinion or excluding you when you are in the group because “You are just a baby, you know nothing about life/men/cooking…pick your poison”
*The threeway (not that one) calling one of your friends with the other in line and start talking about it, usually to destroy that friendship or that girl that one is really cruel.
*Hanging out with other girls without inviting you and you found out in a later date by accident “But I though you were busy…Oops”
*Mocking something personal family/clothing/crushes…everywaking moment.
*Do an united front against certain girl and make sure to make her know how icky/smelly she is. I remember one pretty girl accused by others of having lice who had a group of girls cleaning themselves everytime she passed closed by that was disgusting.
I think men are as blind to this as they are to IOI’s because from their POV this things don’t look as bad. But for the girl in it they are absolutely horrifying.
Now as I keep mentioning herds can also work wonders and shame girls from being too slutty, not getting good grades, not being feminine (I have a funny story of getting an intervention because I was too damn tomboyish, it was horrible when it happened and I was ready to ditch all my friends for daring, and they had to tone it down for me to stay friends with them but in hindsight I see they didn’t meant ill) so the herd is not the problem but the nature of the herd. The same with packs, IMO, YMMV.
“so the herd is not the problem but the nature of the herd”
I would say that the problem is with the attitudes of the herd members – ‘my herd, right or wrong’. An unwillingness to put principles over convenience. It might have been a matter of survival hundreds of years ago, but now? c’mon we’re talking convenience at best.
“The same with packs”
Men don’t fear being outside any pack to anywhere near the same extent as women do the herd. As you say – my milage does vary. As with many men, I’ll join a pack for a valid purpose – because serious shit needs doing.
But join a herd just so I have someone to sit next to in the library at the cost that they make me do stuff that I do not want to do…seriously?
That’s just weird. Vive les differences.
Based on what I am hearing here, yeah, agreed. I can get why you would try desperately hard to fit into a group, but this isn’t something I have ever felt the need to do. I’m struggling to find instances where I have.
The closest I can think of is throwing balls at people in elementary school, and I thought it was dumb. In high school, some guys were making fun of a girl, and I kept quiet because I didn’t like people getting made fun of.
A few months ago I was at a club and some friends tried to pressure me into smoking. To be cool, you have to smoke. It’s just so ridiculous I struggled more to keep myself from laughing. I’m a 25 year old man responsible for millions of dollars in claims and the work performance of a dozen people, does it really make any sense to peer pressure ME?
@ thread in whole, another question:
We have a new female contract worker. She joined us at lunch yesterday, and some of us guys were shooting shit back and forth. It had come out that I had recently finished a half marathon, and baked the cupcakes for my department that morning (Monday and all)>.
She grabbed my arm and smiled and said something to the extent of “Whenever I am talking to you, it always feels like you’re lying a bit.”
She clarified later that apparently I have some smirking expressions that are my default.
Is this the “cocky-funny” I am going for?
Lamia: “On a semi-related note .. to the father’s of daughters, I think it’s quite important to exhibit beta-behaviour in front of your girls in order to ensure she ends up with someone who will take good care of her.”
We can’t use the term “beta behavior” any more, because now that confuses things with Vox betas, so I am going to use “comfort traits” instead.
While I agree on principle, this only matters if you have an excess of attraction traits, and a dearth of comfort traits. This isn’t really a problem for typical men. Instead, it’s the other way around, we have to model an appropriate level of attraction traits.
What makes him super-alpha? Does he have multiple wives and is a billionaire?
JP, porn hasn’t done me any harm so far. It has actually helped me understand how being a hot woman is many times a burden. Without porn every guy and his dog would endlessly hound attractive women and that’s disrespectful to the women and rather silly. I don’t have high expectations in women due to porn. One of the results of porn is how it mAkes me relaxed – because porn is a great release for sexual frustration – and it allows me to be charming, attentive, interesting and mysterious to women who are far above my league because I don’t come across as creepy. Most guys are either forcing the young woman to feel uncomfortabtle or they ruin any chance of the hottie developing interest. Let’s be frank. The vast majority of young women, and I consider the average-looking girls to be attractive enough for a LTR. Women know they can at least have any -6 guy to sleep with them, and one girl in particular sees the aloof guy be cocky and funny with her, and noticing how extra attentive and caring he is to her while being indifferent to other equally hot or hotter girls: she’s gonna become captivated.
@Lamia
Wow, thanks for your honesty about the kind of men you prefer, and for mentioning that they are like your own father. You are the third daughter of an alpha here who has been able to correlate that experience with sexual attraction.
I’ve wondered about the father/daughter connection before. I don’t have any data on this but my own father was affectionate, high EQ and very involved in my life growing up, and I married a man who showed the same traits. Now his daughter demonstrates a clear preference for the same – that’s her first and best filter.
@INTJ
All the discussions around heritable traits that I have seen assess their genetic component at about 50%. That represents a strong predisposition, but also a great deal of room in which one may be influenced by experience.
Furthermore, I have a high sex drive. Think of how high school was a generator of , excuse my French, mrs Walsh, blue balls. If I go a day without sexual release I begin to look at the girls like an hungry wolf would look at flock of meaty sheep. Not good. It makes me feel like I’m an animal and it makes women feel sexually objectified. I’m not too keen on jocks drooling over my youngest sister, I’m sure these girls brothers and fathers wouldn’t take it lightly that a dude is thinking all sort of cooties over “their” girls. Besides, from day one I’ve been fancying a solid 7 from Colorado and a conbination of factors have increase my SMP value above her, but she has a long-distance boyfriend, I believe, and my mom and dad did not raise me to break relationships apart. If she ends the relationship, I might be game. A pretty face is not everything. I’d have to get to know her first before committing to her. That way she’d feel safe in her choice for a high value man does not offer his commitment easily, and I’d feel that the deliverance of my freedom was a good trade for me: she’s one of the very few who can hold my interest, who can make want to talk, and who makes me wonder how cute our babies could be if I was to impregnant her(and I’m not even interested in having children).
@ADBG
I wouldn’t call it cocky-funny, more amused mastery, but boy that is a nuclear IOI!
This may not describe typical men, but it represents what typical men aspire to, and the number of men displaying comfort traits is decreasing. This will sort itself out in time, as they will then compete for the women who have a strong attraction to dominant males, as Lamia does.
JP, video gaming is something I picked up when I was living in Alaska right out of living in California. There wasn’t much to do in Alaska besides freezing to death, so I became involved with video gaming. I still play quite a bit but not as much as I did when I was a teenager. Sorry about the lack of spaces in my posts. First time posting on a fórum/blog via iPod.
How so many smart guys buy into such canards, I have no idea. Honestly, chicken or the egg?
Men don’t fear being outside any pack to anywhere near the same extent as women do the herd. As you say – my milage does vary. As with many men, I’ll join a pack for a valid purpose – because serious shit needs doing.
Man fears being the weak link in the pack, lack of loyalty and lack of trust. Different fear but as socially pressured as the herd. Take a look at the male bloggers interaction to see how they all trying to become an Alpha on the terms the Alpha decides regardless if it makes any sense, that is why men became good at war they will follow their leaders to death even if that death was unnecessary and/or made no sense.
@Barky:
Porn’s just a link to the so-called vital mind/lower vertical. It’s sub-real and less than human. The problem is it’s social impact, anyway. Japan is a case in point.
Anyhow, video games in moderation is fine, just like anything else. To the extent I used them, they were quite unhelpful.
@Megaman
Taking the ‘normal beta’ definition (not VD’s)…
you could try asking at
Athol Kaye / Married Man Sex Life
Chateau Heartiste
Game sites in general don’t recommend trying to pull women while dressed in cardigan and slippers, drinking cocoa and smoking a pipe.
It is a pretty wide spread view that failing to maintain a woman’s attraction to the man is bad news for the marriage. Now I see Susan’s story and it sounds plausible, but I’m not sure that a husband ought to bet the house on it, and that would be what he would be doing.
I think that you’re out voted, but I’m sure that there’re are all kinds of women looking for all kinds of men. You go Guy
@Barky:
” Besides, from day one I’ve been fancying a solid 7 from Colorado and a conbination of factors have increase my SMP value above her, but she has a long-distance boyfriend, I believe, and my mom and dad did not raise me to break relationships apart.”
Maybe the Pottery Barn rule is a better one. I’ve never really had a problem with breaking relationships, but that’s generally because my situation was my fault in the first place.
“‘You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people,’ he told the president. ‘You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems. You’ll own it all.’ Privately, Powell and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage called this the Pottery Barn rule: You break it, you own it.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottery_Barn_rule
It’s so funny you should say this! Just this weekend I was thinking that the manosphere can be summed up in the song, Why Can’t a Woman Be More Like a Man?
the rayne in spayne falls maynely on the playne?
Where did I say that attraction wasn’t important? I’m just amused by this simplistic labeling system. It doesn’t begin to describe the dynamics in an actual relationship IMO. But if we take it to it’s logical conclusion, “alpha” dads are probably the least likely to stick around and raise kids to begin with.
I undertand the Jekyll & Hyde routine is the end all, be all of the SMP around here. But I seriously doubt that kind of thing keeps a relationship going for very long, let alone a marriage. My guess is Mr. HUS would be outvoted at HUS, despite his obvious bona fides in the field of marital happiness.
Not that I have researched the issue deeply (ahem), but from what I have seen, most females in porn range from unattractive to hideous. They seem hell-bent-determined to show themselves at their worst. It’s not amazing to me that porn would be a life-changer for a lot of guys but what is amazing to me is that so many guys like the toxic combination of silicon, tanning bed tans, ridiculously teased hair, caked makeup, piercings everywhere, tats, 6″ clear heels, and lingerie so trashy even Frederick’s of Hollywood wouldn’t sell it out of taste concerns
@Megaman
Beta (non VD) is usually considered yucky if over done. It is often described as causing a precipitous drop in attraction – cliff edge stylee. I suppose it could be seen as super-alpha to take the risk…there is that.
But why would I worry? I’m a Titanium Alpha*
(*small in-joke there, don’t worry about not getting it)
@Just1Z
Hmmm, let me guess: Titanium to get the girl, Aluminum to keep her around?
Megaman,
I gotta say, I don’t remember you being so oppositional before! You’ve become the new face of HUS skepticism.
I do think that this reflects a misunderstanding of the alpha/beta balance. Don’t think of it in those terms: think of it as attraction vs. comfort. Sexy vs. sweet. Jekyll and Hyde suggests extremes, but it really doesn’t have to be that way, and I don’t think that’s what anyone here is trying to advocate. Sexy and sweet are not opposites, after all.
When you think of it like that, of course Mr. HUS would not be outvoted!
@Susan
“All the discussions around heritable traits that I have seen assess their genetic component at about 50%. That represents a strong predisposition, but also a great deal of room in which one may be influenced by experience.”
cought*** bullshit *** cough
They range significantly depending on the trait/disease.
@Megaman
it’s the 300 page explanation of context that makes that quote ‘funny’…maybe in another lifetime?
in this one I’ll save you from the tale of emotional rollercoasterdom (and you’re welcome mate).
BTW I am far from an advocate of “treat ‘em mean and keep ‘em keen”, very far from it. I just believe that you have to keep a very careful eye on the balance between alpha and beta.
FYI, Susan, Emily Esfahani Smith just put up an excerpt of her Atlantic article and started a discussion thread at Ricochet:
http://ricochet.com/main-feed/A-Plan-to-Reboot-Dating-End-the-Hook-Up-Culture-Revolutionize-Feminism-While-We-re-At-It
…looks like it’s going to be a long one, (though not by the standards of this place)
Ricochet is a membership site; anyone can read comments on the main thread, but you have to be member to add comments. There’s also a Members page, in which members can add new posts, promotable to the main page at the discretion of the editors. Interesting model.
@Lokland
I should have been clearer about what I meant by traits. In the genetic research around personality traits, I most often see the trait described as 50% heritable. Does that mean that a person has a 50% chance of inheriting that trait, or that the inherited gene will account for only a 50% likelihood of the personality trait being dominant?
He would be promptly dismissed by the Game-indoctrinated men as a mangina and sociosexual loser who couldn’t possibly understand what it takes to keep a woman attracted. The women would adore him.
No way! Didn’t you see Deti describe him as alpha?
Nah, IMO the only people who would dismiss him would be the ones who think getting married at all is for pussies without options. I don’t really see those guys hanging out at HUS.
I certainly want my kids to be well adjusted and socially “smart” enough to survive, but to me it seems teaching them what they need to withstand peer pressure actually works against them being “social”, since part of being social is conforming to the standards of the “herd”. And in my experience it takes a very mature person to be able to not care about “being liked”.
It’s a difficult balance for a kid to attain. And it’s scary becasue some of the traits that make a teenager popular also come with high risk behavior. A few years ago, two of the most popular kids at my sons’ school were kiled in an accident. The whole school was in mourning — for a few days. The parents have a lifetime of mourning to do though.
JP, vertical link? I’m not sure I follow. Porn is as natural as eating food is. I’m sure that the guys who throughout history didn’t have the social status to have women attracted to him, or the resources to “buy” a wife turned out to porn and managed to have at least a life of minimized sexual frustrations, which is what really matters. What’s happening in Japan is a demonstration of the young Japanese men putting their interests above those of society. Nothing wrong with that. As for long-term consequences for the consumption of porn: one Of my grandpas brother’s never had sex, only porn in his life and he was still a function able and productive member of society. You can’t really miss for what you never had(not talking about you).
She’s probably MORE susceptible to her BF’s pressure, because he is her pipeline of male validation and the source of her status wrt female validation…This is a big reason why some girls stay in abusive relationships, btw. J can probably expand on this as well.
Agreed. And the intimacy of the relationship is another factor.
“He would be promptly dismissed by the Game-indoctrinated men as a mangina and sociosexual loser who couldn’t possibly understand what it takes to keep a woman attracted. The women would adore him.”
I’d like to point out Susan, that you are not the average bear when it comes to women. You have a much, MUCH better understanding of attraction/alpha/beta/comfort traits than most women. This is important because it means you are capable of seeing past what many woman cannot when it comes to determining if a particular man is or is not a good “prospect” for LTR/Marriage.
So, although I would not dismiss Mr. Hus at all when it comes to knowing how to be a good husband, I’d say that at least some of WHY he is a good husband is you. Truth be told, I’d wager (not more than a dollar though, LOL) that most successful marriages work like this to an extent. Most men are not very Red Pill aware, yet at least 50% of marriages survive. In some cases, it may very well be that the woman in the relationship has more awareness as you do in terms of seeing their husbands as the best option, even if/when they do not appear to be so based on the usual attraction triggers.
But honestly, do you think Mr. Hus would fair well in today’s open market SMP? Not a dig at all, just curious of your opinion on it.
@Susan 665;
I don’t think this (having an excess of attraction traits) represents what typical men aspire to. The typical reader of HUS or the manosphere perhaps. I think the typical man is still clueless and thinks overloading on the supplicating comfort behavior is the way to get the girl.
The Theory of Betatude posits that today’s typical men exhibit an excess of supplicating and submissive behavior towards women they are attracted to because they perceive that women outrank them in the social hierarchy.
The average man is a beta, meaning he does not seek absolute dominance, nor is always submissive, but comfortably occupies some middle position in the social hierarchy. As such, he is capable of both dominant and submissive behavior, depending on the situation. A beta can display situational dominance – he may be an effective leader or manager. And he can also exhibit situational submission – he will take orders from higher ranking individuals without resistance. This versatility in dominance and submission allows a beta man to work well in the hierarchy and be a good team player.
The “betatude” of modern men – the tendency to be overly supplicating, comforting and submissive to female partners – is the result of men being trained to view women as their social superiors. This starts in childhood – many men grow up under the domination of their mothers with no father around. In school, they are dominated by the mostly female teaching staff, and are led to believe that girls are generally superior. If they go to college, they will be in the minority and be instructed by the administration that they are (potential) oppressive rapists. In the workplace, they may see women receive special protections and preferences in hiring and promotion. All these experiences teach a beta man that he is inferior in social rank to the woman he is attracted to, which is reinforced by the power her sexuality has over him.
So what does the beta man do? What he naturally does to his social superiors – roll over. Hence the “supplicating beta” behavior. Unfortunately for him, most women are not inclined to accept the dominant role in romantic and sexual relationships and find this behavior unattractive.
As an aside, I think this tendency of the beta male to submit is why traditional cultures spend so much effort to prop up the male role as head of household. Universal monogamy requires that female hypergamy be suppressed, and this requires husbands to occasionally make passable imitations of alpha attractive behavior. A “patriarchal” social structure which elevates men over women artificially enhances the husband’s dominant qualities and suppresses his submissive qualities. Without this cultural support, it’s hard for a beta male to maintain a strong frame in dating or marriage, even in the absence of a girl-power culture. The natural power of women – their sexuality and fertility, their dexterity at emotional manipulation, their control over hearth and home – is already daunting.
That’s interesting about the foxes bred for tameness not having as beautiful of fur. Some of them in the pictures didn’t look as foxy (not that I’m an expert in foxes or anything lol).
Isn’t it wild? And it’s not just that the coats aren’t as pretty. The coats look dog-like–spotted coats like dalmations, sable coats like collies, facial markings like shelties. Something like that must have happened with wolves. As people bred them for neotanous behavior, their looks changed as well. Somehow, there’s a link.
Olive,
” IMO the only people who would dismiss him would be the ones who think getting married at all is for pussies without options. I don’t really see those guys hanging out at HUS.”
*looks over shoulder*
@Just1Z
New handle again?
Mr. HUS is not psychopathic, narcissistic, or Machiavellian enough to impress the Roissy’s and the RooshV’s of the Game world. And that’s a good thing!
@ OffTheCuff 659;
I agree. We’ve been brainwashed into thinking these attraction traits are the tools of oppression. It’s a hard lesson to unlearn.
@Megaman 667;
The reason you see these as canards as opposed to terse expressions of a general truth is because you are exaggerating them into caricatures – a tendency shared with many of the commentators here. It’s not a matter of Jekyll & Hyde – two opposing and contradictory forces. Rather, it’s obtaining a balance of disparate forces that work in harmony.
And why does this smart guy into it? Because 20 years of a very successful marriage have shown me it’s true.
@John (#121)
“I will not marry a woman who has given that away to other men. Period. She will not get the benefit of me comforting her when she is old, because she ignored me while I was young.”
Oh my! I just registered to say that you are me! I was popular in high school. Jock, grades, etc. I was outgoing and never had problems getting dates. My problem was that I was too nice such that I usually got the “I love you but I’m not in love with you,” speech from the “10′s” that I wanted to marry. Granted, I was too giving and was probably a doormat. Girls in my mid-20′s would use me as the rebound guy, but then rush back to the broke, uneducated, bad boy when he came back because they liked his edge. I quickly learned not to return calls. I learned to ignore. I learned to treat them as insignificant. Now my phone doesn’t stop ringing. They all want me to reconsider dating them in my early 30′s. I make very good money and have no debt. I have a great life. They see all my travels and lifestyle and NOW want back in. Haha…they will never hear back from me. I’m now MGTOW for life.
I’m so glad to see someone else out there like me. Maybe I’m stubborn but I look at what marriage has to offer a man like me…nothing. I can have love without it. I can have friendships without it. I can have children without it (I won’t though). Marriage only offers me risk to my finances. Girls in their 30′s are throwing themselves at me because their clocks are ticking or they are in huge student loan or other debt. Girls in their 20′s are throwing themselves at me because men in their 20′s have “no ambition” (their words) and are prolonging adolescence (their words). Maybe I’ll have incentive to marry when I’m 50-60 but I doubt it. I will re-evaluate it at that time. In the meantime, I’m open to a LTR without the legal bonds of marriage…but again, happy to stay single if that option is not there with someone I like.
I HOPE this doesn’t sound conceited but I’m certain that some women will take it that way. I promise you that I don’t think I’m “all that” (ask my friends). I am merely stating the facts. No one is more shocked about my sudden boom in popularity than me. ALL I DID WAS LEARN FROM WATCHING OTHERS like any smart person would do. And I guess all these women must have received some memo that the way to compete for me was to have sex with me by date #2. I’m not complaining but I NEVER saw this coming in my 20′s when I was fighting for their attention. What a weird world.
Susan, this website is great. Communication is lacking between the sexes. Men like me are opting out more and more. None of my male friends want to get married. I think the sexes are growing apart. To the article above, it will never work. For every woman that says she won’t hook up with me, there are 3 others ready to do so. I’m not making this up. It’s everywhere. And it wasn’t here 10 years ago I can tell you that.
Deti described him as alpha because the only descriptors we are ever given of Mr. HUS are through Susan. Naturally, any of the wives describing their husbands here would make it seem as though they all married alphas, *in the lens of the men commenting here.*
I think what Megaman meant was that if Mr. HUS were to comment here, AS HIMSELF, he would be summarily dismissed. I’m inclined to agree.
“The entire system is a complete mess from a human perspective and this entire feminism-relationship mess just kind of flows from that.”
That FR construct relies heavily on prescription as does the Western “career culture.” That is why they go beserk when an American man so much as mentions jumping ship (aka breaking the construct) to form a family in a foreign country.
@J
resurrected old one – the Z is for Zombie.
I am in mourning, as I’m sure we are, for the passing of Just1X. For he is no more.
@Susan
“Why Can’t a Woman Be More Like a Man?”
*stern tone*
You know very well that I like feminine women.
But does it always have to be dialled up to eleven*…?
*okay enough with the faked stern tone* (it wasn’t foolin’ you anyway)
(*I wonder if the reference works in the States?)
@J;
It’s interesting that humans exhibit a high degree of neoteny. Some anthropologists think that we’re a self-domesticating species; over time we’ve expelled the wildest, fiercest members who didn’t get along in a group. Too much alpha, not enough beta, perhaps?
I was thinking about this when reading some of your somewhat dismissive remarks about childlike femininity. Women exhibit a greater degree of neoteny than men, so it could be argued they are more childlike than men in some ways, and that this is actually an important part of sexual attraction. For example, neoteny in women is correlated to physical attractiveness: In a cross-cultural study, more neotenized female faces were the most attractive to men while less neotenized female faces were the least attractive to men.
Actually I think the question I asked of Susan earlier might be great for all the partnered ladies here:
How to you think your SO/Husband would fair today if he was looking for a mate in the current SMP/MMP? I’m sure this is tough because you are so fond of him, but try to be objective.
@Beta2Alpha
“I learned to ignore.”
Yup.
” I’m now MGTOW for life. . . .
I NEVER saw this coming in my 20′s when I was fighting for their attention”
The thing I personally keep getting caught up on is why I won’t end up like this. If I can’t get girls, of equal SMV, to have interest in me now, before my SMV continues to increase for 10+years, then how will I not want to reject? (or even worse treat the ones finally giving me the attention poor)
Right now, I’m am fully prepared to enter a LTR.
Provided I find one, and even if the my girlfriend is higher SMV now, it’s almost certain that my SMV will overtake hers within the next 10years.
So, hypothetically if I’m a 8, and find an 8 now, there’s a good chance we’ll be a 9 and a 7 in 10years.
I am OK with this! I’ll choose whoever to marry based on having the consent of my 35-40yo self. (If that makes sense.) I will not allow myself to marry early, and let having our SMV grow apart be any sort of reason of dissatisfaction in my relationship – no way.
With that said, how am I not supposed to feel bitter about girl, my age and even lower SMV than me, rejecting me.
I am practically offering them a man of much higher SMV and they either can’t see it or figure they can “come back.”
I get this from girls I truly perceive below my SMV. So, provided their SMV will undoubtedly decrease, while mine undoubtedly increases – their own perceived value must be either in the clouds, or they don’t think they’ll ever hit the wall.
Even in my early twenties, I am witnessing my value, slowly, increase. (Which says its only to pick up) I think all in all what I have to offer is a killer deal – it’s like I got hot stock, yet I can’t even sell it for low!
/rant, how’s is everyone else doing!
Cooper – “I get this from girls I truly perceive below my SMV. So, provided their SMV will undoubtedly decrease, while mine undoubtedly increases – their own perceived value must be either in the clouds, or they don’t think they’ll ever hit the wall.”
It’s a damn mess, isn’t it?
I’d like to point out Susan, that you are not the average bear when it comes to women.
It depends on what neck of the woods you’re hunting bear in, Ted. Most of my RL friends resemble Susan and their marriages resemble her marriage.
@mr. wavevector
Agree that that helped balance things out historically. A lot of the talk of a woman’s inferiority was nonsense but it helped artificially deflate her value and inflate man’s (of course, the physical strength part of it was true). Also, the real need of a man’s provider and protector abilities back then also elevated his value.
Today, technology has largely reduced the value of physical strength and opened up all kinds of employment where a brain and social skills are mainly what is needed. Plus, the welfare state and protection of police and armies (still largely male) contribute to eliminating the need of the individual woman for a man. Men are still needed collectively for their taxes and labor. So both the real value of a man (provider/protector role) and the artificial value (based on the old “bullshit” that women couldn’t think or work outside the home, etc.) have been reduced or eliminated and we find ourselves in the current situation.
It’s the most ironic thing in the world that men invented themselves out of their dominant place in society by coming up with technology. Materially, the modern world is a veritable paradise compared to the drab subsistence of hundreds or thousands of years ago (life expectancy is about double of what it was and there’s 10x more people and we have unheard of wealth compared to back then) so men are much better off in their now equal or inferior status relative to women than back when they were the “king” of their home but a serf to their lord, slaving away and barely with enough to eat.
It bring’s Milton’s Paradise Lost to mind:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
I wonder how many men would prefer that.
But that’s all prologue. The future will be wild indeed as technology completely transforms humanity into something possibly completely different than our biology makes it right now.
J – “It depends on what neck of the woods you’re hunting bear in, Ted. Most of my RL friends resemble Susan and their marriages resemble her marriage.”
Well *I* would be hunting in those woods. But guys like Cooper and INTJ? Yeah, I’m not even sure they are hunting bears in their age bracket.
And honestly, how long did it take Susan and your RL friends to learn what is actually most important in a husband? Is it possible that women are simply NOT learning those lessons as early as they used to? It would explain the “mad dash” to marriage and family for many women when they hit the 30′s. Of course, that is little consolation for Cooper and his peers after they spent thier 20′s being rejected for relationships.
@Beta2Alpha & Cooper
relax guys, the global financial collapse will happen soon (aka the zombie apocalypse). There’s going to be a massive recalibration of SMV and MMV coming along. Sadly that might be the healthiest part of the coming changes.
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/its-over.html
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/nothing-left-to-lose-last-ingredient.html
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/america-will-never-die.html
Enjoy the decline, because whether you want it or not, it’s a-coming to a globe near you.
@Susan – I note that Cappy Cap is now hosted in New Zealand. Does he know something that you don’t? Also his site doesn’t spout unprovoked streaming coke adverts – always a plus…
although on a lighter note, maybe we’ll be lucky and have an alien invasion first?
(humour alert)
Mitchell & Webb: Alien invasion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP-rkzJ6yZw
Best Mitchell and Webb Sketch Ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNo9CKmZaVA&feature=related
Mitchell & Webb: The New Fuhrer – promotion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pje5ROe5Y_w&feature=related
It’s interesting that humans exhibit a high degree of neoteny. Some anthropologists think that we’re a self-domesticating species; over time we’ve expelled the wildest, fiercest members who didn’t get along in a group. Too much alpha, not enough beta, perhaps?
Seems reasonable.
I was thinking about this when reading some of your somewhat dismissive remarks about childlike femininity.
What struck you as dismissive? The observation that decison making is a part of adult life? For most people, it really is. I truly worry about people who pass all major decision making to a spouse. I’m of an age where I’m starting to see friends lose their husbands through death. Those who handed everything off to their husbands tend to do very poorly as widows, which is sadly the eventual fate of most married women. I see women everyday who can’t handle car repairs, finances, etc. Yesterday, DH and I switched cars because he was too busy take care of some repairs on his car. I can’t tell you how much I hate dealing with the car and with mechanics, but I did it. Twice in fact, because they screwed up a repair the first time. I feel so accomplished now that I tackled that, and he was so grateful for the help. Sometimes it’s good to get out of the old comfort zone.
Women exhibit a greater degree of neoteny than men, so it could be argued they are more childlike than men in some ways, and that this is actually an important part of sexual attraction. … less neotenized female faces were the least attractive to men.
True enough, though I’m not sure that argues for women not learning to make decisions. People still have to live the life fate throws in front of them. I’d have rather not been my parents’ health care POA, but it was something I had to do, I did it, and it made me a better person for facing it. While I’m grateful for DH’s love and support through all this, I’m also glad that he declined input into my decision. It was ultimately between my folks, God and me. DH felt that he couldn’t be responsible for something that I’d ultimately be the one who had to live with decison so he didn’t mix in.
Wiki also has an article on neoteny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny
Sue: “This may not describe typical men, but it represents what typical men aspire to, and the number of men displaying comfort traits is decreasing.”
It took me a while to parse this, but I see what you are saying. When comfort traits are penalized, then there will be less of them… pretty simple. The incentives are pretty screwed up, but they are what they are From the man’s perspective, he can either add attraction traits, reduce comfort traits, or both, to change the whole-package balance. When backed into a corner, withholding comfort may be his only option.
What the hell, the radio version (which is betterer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YkAuDaLKpI
Just1Z – well those first three links were kinda depressing…
I’m not sure who I am more worried about: myself of my children. If this happens soon, I’ll be in trouble which means they will be in trouble. If it holds off for several years, they may very well find themselves fresh out of college and/or just starting with NO prospects for gainful employment.
And if no one else has money, rolling your own business is pointless.
And honestly, how long did it take Susan and your RL friends to learn what is actually most important in a husband?
Most of my friends married between 21 and 28.
Is it possible that women are simply NOT learning those lessons as early as they used to?
It could be a factor, but it think things like the economy and the extended period of adolescense that college-goers go through also have a lot to do with it.
It would explain the “mad dash” to marriage and family for many women when they hit the 30′s.
I don’t see this happening much IRL. Each summer, I attend 2-3 weddings where the bride in about 25 or 26 and groom is about 30. I think the national stats are similar, but I haven’t done the research.
Also you asked how the women here think their husbands SMV would do in the current SMP. I think DH would be well in his age cohort. He’s sucessful, handsome, smart and funny. Women compliment me on him.
I would expect that SW’s DH would also do very well, probably for the same reasons.
resurrected old one – the Z is for Zombie… I am in mourning, as I’m sure we are, for the passing of Just1X. For he is no more
So, Just1X is dead. He will be missed. Long live Just1Z.
Wavevector at 689, excellent analysis.
SayWhaat, I doubt Mr. HUS would get called those words by the people present here, maybe at Dalrock or Roissy. It’s possible to Game-aware and pro-family. I certainly have never called any man that, and am not sure which men here, if any, have said such things.
“Is it possible that women are simply NOT learning those lessons as early as they used to? It would explain the “mad dash” to marriage and family for many women when they hit the 30′s.”
I can’t even explain how similar the reactions I get from girls are.
I know the meanings for exactly match, but it always maks me think of the story of goldilocks – where she hums and haws over each bowl of porridge not being exactly right, and wishes to try them all. (I know women don’t do this, but it is the mentality – that they ought to explore all their options before choosing one)
I get this. That they don’t want to ‘burn a bridge’ essentially.
I get tons of girls who welcome my attention, and enthusiastically entertain it, but not without this ‘wanting to taste the others first’ type mentality. What I’m saying is tons of girls are willing to enjoy receiving my attention, just none are willing to jump out of their seats for it. It’s all received with a “thanks, I’ll keep you around, while I decide” kinda of way. Like as if, they are still holding out for some “mr.big type” to sweep them off their feet, and that they can “come back” to me, when he doesn’t and they don’t find better.
Another analogy I often think of is like they’re trying to sell an unscratched loto ticket. What’s it worth? (Face value – maybe a $1.) And young girls in their twenties are turning down (un)reasonably good offers (say $10) with the hopes “it could be a winner! Worth a million bucks!”
It goes with the situation, I suppose. Young girls get so much attention, I do get why when dealing with a guy showing interest, they’re inherent reaction can possibly be “and, the next one could be even better! – let’s not get too excited about this one”
I did, but that was because he delivered a stern “no” to me. If he was on here, he’d come across as a gentle soul, very earnest, easy to get along with and having no complaints whatsoever about women, including the way we think and communicate.
Back in the day I wrote this about seeing Mr. HUS for the first time:
There He was. He was sitting a couple of rows up and a few seats over. He didn’t look like anyone else in the room. His hair was a little too long to be fashionable. He wore rimless glasses. He looked long-legged; his knees rose up uncomfortably behind the seat in front of him. He was wearing a colorful checked shirt, rolled up to the elbows. He seemed a bit older than many of the other guys. He looked around suddenly, and I got a glimpse of his face. His eyes were the color of swimming pool water. He had crows’ feet, which gave him a wise, sensitive look. I thought he looked like a poet, or maybe a songwriter.
It occurs to me that this demonstrates a female preferring a “restricted” male face. I distinctly remember the attraction trigger – wisdom, intelligence, emotional sensitivity – a poet. That is what generated the tingle.
Before anyone says I’m a wacky outlier, I had intense competition for Mr. HUS – obviously other women were drawn to the same traits. By the way, I was 100% right about his personality and character.
@TedD
Yeah, sorry, but it isn’t just him with that opinion.
Mitchell and Webb are funnier, if that helps…? The alien crab monsters would be quicker…I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords…YMMV
Perhaps I should have delivered the news as a shit sandwich instead?
good news -> bad news -> good news
See you poolside, it’s not like there’s anything we could do about it…as Cappy Cap says, “Enjoy the decline”.
“relax guys, the global financial collapse will happen soon (aka the zombie apocalypse).”
*huge sign of relief*
I am in the right demo to survive!!
@Susan,
and clearly, so was he. *hugs*
@Ted D
But I chose him when I was clueless and 25.
I’ll assume you mean if he were 27 today. (I know for a fact that the women would be breaking down the door with gourmet meals if I got hit by a bus.) He would do very well among certain women. Absolutely not well among hypergamous slutty types! But yes, he would definitely have options.
FTR, he went to engineering school and really didn’t mature into an attractive self-confidence until his mid-20s. He was one of those late blooming betas.
@Cooper,
well, I’m old(er), but I have stocked up…and I have better tactical skills than those idiots on the walking dead (but then, who hasn’t?).
J,
I’m guilty of selling mrs. wavevector short. She’s a capable woman, perfectly able to get the car fixed if I’m not around. But she’s much happier if I do it for her. I can cook dinner, but I’m much happier if she does it.
Part of this is useful division of labor. But some of it is role playing to increase one’s attractiveness to one’s mate. I play alpha because she likes it, and she plays femme because I like it. It strengthens our bond and interdependence (which we both value over independence). I’m not saying that works for everybody.
That’s my mom. I do those things for her now. But widowed women still survive better than widowed men.
”Not that I have researched the issue deeply (ahem), but from what I have seen, most females in porn range from unattractive to hideous. They seem hell-bent-determined to show themselves at their worst. It’s not amazing to me that porn would be a life-changer for a lot of guys but what is amazing to me is that so many guys like the toxic combination of silicon, tanning bed tans, ridiculously teased hair, caked makeup, piercings everywhere, tats, 6″ clear heels, and lingerie so trashy even Frederick’s of Hollywood wouldn’t sell it out of taste concerns”
It could be that most porn is bad, but a young guy only needs to find the right porn, and there’s so many sources for good porn. There’s stuff like Girls Gone Wild, filled with very beautiful and all-natural women. There’s the lesbian porn, which also features very beautiful and natural women. There’s x-Art that began as a glamour photoshoot magazine and evolved to hardcore porn.
A few porn names are huge. Sasha Gray and Gracie Glam to name a few. There are literally porn forums filled with works from those two girls and they’re always making new scenes. Add to that a whole bunch of very attractive young women who come(and go) to porn everyday, and the very attractive amateur girls you can find even on mainstream blogs, and you can have a pretty good time with some hand lotion, a computer screen, and some tissues.
And I can always find a porn star who strongly ressembles the women IRL I’m most attracted to.
@mr. wavevector
This is awesome analysis – I do believe you are the first man here to use the language of superiority, which is think is right on. I witnessed this as my own children were growing up, and that is when I became convinced that feminism was a play for female superiority, not equality. And that’s when I divorced myself from it.
Mr. WV, you are a fantastic new addition to HUS – you have great insights, and you’ve shared them generously. I hope you’ll stick around – we can learn a lot from you.
@Susan
“In the genetic research around personality traits, I most often see the trait described as 50% heritable. Does that mean that a person has a 50% chance of inheriting that trait, or that the inherited gene will account for only a 50% likelihood of the personality trait being dominant?”
Your first guess is incorrect, your second is incorrect but closer to correct.
your thinking Mendellian genetics, a trait is either dominant or recessive. Thats not how it actually works.
Most traits are polygenic (multiple genes involved in producing the phenotype). This means that different alleles (versions of a given gene) can act in different combos to produce different results.
now for the % heritability.
They do it typically by measuring twins. I’m gonna use cancer cause its easier than personality traits and my knowledge base is greater.
You take two twins which have three factors that effect whether or not cancer develops. Shared environment, unshared environment and the actual genes involved.
Phenotype (cancer or no cancer) depends on how that specific gene set interacts with the total environment (shared and unshared).
From that you can determine the % each part is involved in producing the cancer phenotype.
Example, certain hereditary cancers are like 60-70% heritable with little environmental impact. Sporadic cancer ie. lung, is 60-70% environmental factors.
However, this is also not the full picture. Lets use height.
Its very obvious that nutrition plays a role in height BUT in North America we all receive essentially 100% nutrition which means the environment is shared so differences in displayed phenotype are due pretty much entirely do to genetics.
So % heritability is a measure of the effect that genes play into producing a phenotype but they are not the only factor involved.
Its not a probability on whether or not a phenotype develops merely a measure of % input by a given source of (stuff) that makes a certain phenotype.
Keep in mind that different gene sets have different effects as well.
@Cooper 715
I hear you and have experienced everything you’re talking about, the lower SMV girl thinking she’s too good for me, the flaking out, etc. Now, I don’t think all 20-30 y/o women are like that but maybe half are while the other half are getting married and having LTRs. But it is that half that is being too picky, too demanding, or putting off marriage/LTR for either fun or career that has really upset the MMP. You may want to go join Abbot in Mexico. lol
I’m sure it is, probably related to perceptions purity and innocence. We see that the mature women is not a child – her body tells us this – but her face may retain some element of vulnerability and need of protection that triggers attraction in men.
One idea I keep floating here that never seems to get any traction is the idea that we have evolved to a certain point, and it works quite well for mating. I hypothesize that the tendencies of the different sexes, including those features that drive the other sex crazy, are all part of the formula of sexual tension and attraction.
This came up in the recent discussion on female solipsism. Most men spoke about female emotion and our way of processing others via our own experineces as a scourge, but if you removed it from female nature, you’d have near-males. In a similar way, hypergamy is vitally important for reproduction, and it represents a prime motivator for male achievement.
The male desire for sexual variety may seem like a curse to women, but without the male sexual urge women wouldn’t experience men’s desire for them, which is the most powerful aphrodisiac the female knows.
If I could change one thing, I wouldn’t do it.
Sue: “This is awesome analysis – I do believe you are the first man here to use the language of superiority, which is think is right on. I witnessed this as my own children were growing up, and that is when I became convinced that feminism was a play for female superiority, not equality. And that’s when I divorced myself from it.”
I definitely agree with his analysis, other than the unclear term “beta”, which I believe he uses in the Roissy sense, not yours.
You said a bit earlier that when you say (Vox) “beta” it also includes delta and gammas. But they have almost *nothing* in common, other than being Not Alpha.
A Vox Alpha and Beta have abundance mindsets – they do not see women as superiors. A Vox Delta and Gamma have scarcity mindsets – they see women as natural superiors.
@Barky
I may be an outlier but I just don’t get how someone would rather mast. to porn instead of fuck an average or better woman. If I were out looking for casual I would rather fuck the lowest looks on my casual threshold (about a 6) than view porn. In practice, I’m more looking for a relationship though so I’m not out looking for casual, though I’d do casual with a 7+ if she came looking for it. In the past I had quite a bit of casual with 6, 7, and 8′s, and even a couple 9′s but most of the 8 and 9′s I was doing it with the intention of seeing if it would lead to an LTR.
How prevalent is it that younger guys coming up are really preferring porn to real women? Or is it that they either can’t get women, don’t think they can or have just given up and settle for porn? Now, I do believe that there are the herbivore or MGTOW types but preferring porn to a real woman seems so foreign to me that I have a hard time believing how widespread the phenomenon is.
I know Susan or someone posted something about how young men are having problems orgasming and getting it up with real women and that was correlated with (excessive?) porn use but that doesn’t mean they initially preferred it. Rather, they started using it young, wanked off too much and some of them ruined their ability to get it up and out with a woman.
Thoughts?
@Susan
“I do believe you are the first man here to use the language of superiority”
I’m not sure that he was the first to use it, he certainly wasn’t the first to know it. Surely it’s obvious?
the most obvious is the male-female ratio in college.
60/40 m/f – outrageous in the 70s
40/60 m/f – where are all these ‘we believe in equality’ feminists now?
radfems openly talk about eradicating 90% of men, genetic engineering of men to feminise them…it doesn’t even make the news. Agent Orange infiltrated radfemhub…enjoy
report on radfemhub. check out the SCUM video at the bottom of the page
http://agentorangefiles.com/
And from Agent Orange himself
(http://www.avoiceformen.com/featured/agent-orange-files-released/)
SW: Edited for extreme profanity.
@OTC
To be clear, I was not blaming men. I totally agree that this is a straightforward case of sexual economics. When people respond to market conditions, that is a smart thing b/c it increases their chances of success. I may tell women not to take a chance on a “Pretend Asshole,” but that doesn’t mean I would tell a man not to employ that strategy, depending on his goals.
”I get tons of girls who welcome my attention, and enthusiastically entertain it, but not without this ‘wanting to taste the others first’ type mentality. What I’m saying is tons of girls are willing to enjoy receiving my attention, just none are willing to jump out of their seats for it. It’s all received with a “thanks, I’ll keep you around, while I decide” kinda of way. Like as if, they are still holding out for some “mr.big type” to sweep them off their feet, and that they can “come back” to me, when he doesn’t and they don’t find better.”
Yeah, its interesting how that can go.
A month ago, a girl from my college changed her school course. She decided what she was in wasn’t what she was really interested in, and moved on to my course. She is attractive, but she’s nothing like the 8′s and 10′s, although she does have a nice figure, seems to have a full bossom, and she has beautiful hair. But in a college(as all are, really) filled with inamaginable beautiful women, its very easy for an 8 to be ”ignored” especially with so many ugly guys evaluating a 10 female as a 5 at the very best.
But I disgress.
I was building some good chemistry with the girl. She laughed at everything I was trying to be funny at, she had good body language towards me and she was keen on talking to me.
A week later she’s ignoring my greetings and looking uncomfortable with my presence. I decided that the girl was probably having some problems in her life or that she was just moody(it could be that she assumed I was interested in her and didn’t want to lead me on) and I didn’t talk to her ever since.
This week, I’m coming down the stairs from one of my classes and as I look to what’s in front of me, I notice the girl and I see her eye blink – as if she had been staring at me and stopped doing it as soon as she realized I was looking at her.
I walked past her without saying anything. I enter the row of rooms my classroom is located at. She comes in some 5 minutes later with a tall African-American and she’s chatting happily.
I enter the classroom, the girl sits behind me. I was sitting on the far left end of the first row of tables. The girl was located to the right of my right eye. She had told me previously how much she loved the subject we were going to have. I noticed the girl was bored all the time, and that she was always looking at me, including even without intending to stare at me.
I didn’t look at her. But I noticed that one girl in particular, a hot girl, wouldn’t stop looking at me either and would give those ”look to the side as quick as possible” whenever she thought I was aware of what she was doing.
Now, what really cracks me up is that this hot girl turns to the other girl’s friend and says that I’m hot. I heard because at that time the entire class went mute, she was looking at me, and I was the only guy(I’m the only guy out of three guys who are below average, and the entire class is made up of a lot of girls who also happen to be very hot) on that table.
The girl who ignored me previously instantly looked at me and stared.
The class ends. I am the first to exit the classroom. I go straight to the subway. The girl who ignored me last week goes to the same line. I always lean over the wall at the entrance to the station itself, and as I was looking to the other side of the line I see a most beautiful blonde girl. My jaw gets deeper, I drool over that blonde girl, and the other girl appears from the stairs, goes by me, while staring directly into my eyes(we were cms apart from each other), I suppose she was saying hi or whatever but I couldn’t hear anything with the headphones on.
The blonde girl has her boyfriend show up and she starts waving at me. I look to the sides to see if she’s waving at someone else: nope.
She’s waving at me and smiling for no reason at all.
Man, complicated stuff all of this.
@Just1Z
I was specifically referring to men having grown up Blue Pill. Every other guy who has explained this to me has said that they were lied to by parents and teachers about what women want, or some variation on that. Mr. Wavevector’s point is very different – that boys are taught they deserve lower social rank than women.
@Han
I believe that Susan has described how men can re-program their desires regarding porn and ‘IRL’, it doesn’t even take that long – I concur (anecdotally and mind your own business!).
Misuse of viagra by young men programmed by what they see on porn…not in my experience at all…but that sounds more serious long term to me.
Barky = Piper/Michael?
@HanSolo;
reign in Hell = alpha?
serve in Heaven = beta?
Indeed. I once read an economics of marriage research paper that argued that two factors are necessary for stable, assortative marriage: restraint on female sexuality (slut shaming), and high relative power for beta males. It is the beta males that are responsible for the technology that makes our world easier to live in, going all the way back to the invention of the plow in ancient times, and this has given them enough power to keep their rulers from monopolizing all the women.
As you point out, we betas seemed to have worked ourselves out of a job. Meanwhile, the rich are getting richer and the slutty sluttier!
The biggest losers when monogamy breaks down into hypergamy are the low ranking males, who can’t get a woman, and the highest ranking females, who can’t monopolize the alpha males. No one cares about the low ranking males, but the laments of the high ranking females now pervade the media.
@ Beta2Alpha:
So you became a jerk to get girls and got bitter as the girls who like jerks flock to you. This story is as old as time *yawn*
Dark game attracts women with issues who actively or subconsciously seek out dysfunctional relationships. You reap what you sow, here. You don’t have to go from a “doormat” to a jerk, and shouldn’t if a healthy loving relationship is what you truly want.
You let women of low character who are “hot” (since you stated you only wanted to marry the “10s”) define how you think of all women. Dating/sleeping with those types of women never brought you happiness — no wonder you don’t want to marry them!
When/if you’re ever ready to pursue a relationship with an undamaged woman, you may find NAWAL the ones you’ve spent the past decade obsessed with!
@Just1Z
I believe the reprogramming can occur. My question is if it would make most men really want the porn more than a reasonably attractive and willing woman in the flesh.
As for changing tastes in porn, needing something more hardcore to get aroused, I believe it happens. I think I must be an outlier though because my tastes haven’t really changed over the last several years, liking what I would call sensual porn as opposed to degrading porn. Before that I didn’t use porn and didn’t use porn growing up so maybe it has a bigger effect if you start as a young teen. I think I’m more romantic though and like porn that allows imagining some romantic connection. The close-ups of PinV do nothing for me and I skip those. Also anal porn does nothing for me. lol
SayWhaat – Yep! The minute he started talking about how porn “saved” him I figured it was Michael / Piper trolling yet again..
”I may be an outlier but I just don’t get how someone would rather mast. to porn instead of fuck an average or better woman.”
Yeah, but you have to take into consideration that many if not most guys who are freshmen in college haven’t had sex yet. Or any sort of sexual contact. High school was traumatic in terms of sexual scarcity unless you were the Quarterback star.
When you are used to something you can’t really outgrow it no matter how good it(whatever it is) can be, because it requires effort, energy, patience, and a lot of rejection.
Young men are so used to having a quick fix to their sexual urges that when they reach college and see all these beautiful girls(and I consider average girls, even below average girls can be hot) dressed to the nines and they figure they can’t get anything. I believe only the most masculine of men have easy access to sex.
You have in your hands young men without the will(Mrs Walsh forgive my bluntness: hornyness) to chase after women, the women get depressed because not even the below average girls are having any luck in finding boyfriends because the guys are on their ipads showing each other the new cam show of some porn star, and the girls, curiously, pent-up their looks with make-up, sexual innuendo, the works, to get at leat some sort of male attention, but nada.
Its a weird reality. The PUA’s are cleaning up because the guys who have the chance to snatch up a super hottie for a long-term relationship/marriage are too afraid of doing it, and are also too accostumed to virtual stimulation to find a conversation with a hot women appealing.
They’re literally incapable of conducting a flirty conversation, so when a woman meets a guy who can pull her chain without being a douchebag, I think his chances to date her(sexually/relationship) increase ten-fold over the good-looking dude who for some odd reason is in the beta-zone of pornography.
Speaking for myself. I do regain that urge to (excuse me) bang every attractive women in sight when I abstain from watching porn or masturbation, but I figure that its way too much work, plus I’ve never had sex, the woman would probably feel nothing positive in the experience, and masturbation seems to be far easier and far less tiring than real sex.
@HanSolo
“You may want to go join Abbot in Mexico. lol”
Where is that guy! He ain’t been returning my calls! /s hahahah.
(Oh no. Was I sounding that bad?)
Re:729
Keep in mind, *some* guys don’t look for casual.
Forgot to quote!
By “him” I meant: Barky = Michael /Piper
@Han
“I believe the reprogramming can occur. My question is if it would make most men really want the porn more than a reasonably attractive and willing woman in the flesh. ”
Oh, it works both ways…you can trust me on that…I guarantee it. lmao
‘unhealthy’ -> ‘healthy’ -> ‘unhealthy’
no problem at all, or was it
‘healthy’ -> ‘unhealthy’ -> ‘healthy’?
oh, I forget, and anyway who is making the definitions?
Anyway, I’m off
@Han
and yeah, tastes vary wildy…very wildly. I’m sure that I’m considered very vanilla by modern standards, but extreme by the religious. c’est l’amour (well kinda)
@Iggles
is ‘Barky’ really describing such an extreme version of events?
sounds eminently plausible to me…but hey, uni was a while ago.
don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater…
@Lokland
Thank you for the genetics lesson
Obviously, I am very interested in genetic effects on behavior and should understand it if I’m going to write about it.
@mr. wavevector
Reign in hell would mean being the head of your family, living in poverty, barely enough to eat, no modern conveniences and working your ass off in the fields in a feudal system. Serving in heaven would be today in rich feminist-influenced countries where most men live in a vastly better material setting but are subjected to all of the feminist-superiority indoctrination and environment you mentioned.
Yeah, it was more the beta types that invented stuff. They were probably funded in part by alpha rulers. But yes, by and large, it was the (Roissy) betas that invented most of the technology.
From an evolotionary POV it makes sense. If women don’t need a provider/protector as much then they can be freer to just get better genes (or what they perceive as that, although a lot of the guys they’re having sex with are probably fake badboys and fake alphas that would have been killed off or beta-tized into social conformity back in the tribal days).
What are your thoughts of the future? Say 200, 500 or 1000 years from now? I think that it won’t just have been betas that invented themselves out of a job. By then it will be approaching humans having invented themselves out of a job or out of their current biological/genetic makeup.
I want to highlight this because it is clear that a man’s attitude towards women can have a very strong effect on how attractive women find him. And that is something that can be changed without too much difficulty. I would also suggest that Alphas as Vox describes them tend to see women as very inferior – and this is one of the reasons they make poor mates. As always, I think beta is the sweet spot.
@Barky
If you’re getting lots of IOIs, why not put down the porn and go meet some women IRL?
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