Women in college perceive a dearth of relationship-minded men, so those who want to fall in love and have a serious relationship often look to graduation as the time when things will improve as traditional dating reappears. They hope they can leave hookup culture behind with the extra-long twin sheets and grungy shower flip-flops.
As women go out into the working world, they do find a more diverse set of approaches to meeting and dating men, with better odds:
1. The sex ratio evens out in many environments.
2. Their same-age male peers are potentially more interested in relationships, now that they’re the younguns again (which means fewer options).
3. Online dating offers a traditional dating model, though its success among women in their early 20s is mixed, as many are reluctant to go with the “blind date” approach so quickly.
4. They now have access to men of a wider range of ages.
This last item represents a significant opportunity for women in their early 20s, who are near their own reproductive peak. It can be more challenging to meet older guys, who are unlikely to hang out in the same venues frequented by the post-college crowd. The best way to do this, in addition to online dating, is through work, social circles and activities.
How Much Older?
What is the peak of male attractiveness? Personally, I’ve always been of the opinion that 28 is the sweet spot for males physically, but that’s entirely subjective, so I decided to do some research.
I. David Buss’ study of sex differences in human mate preferences found that preferences around age were quite consistent for women:
Ideal age difference for women: male 3.4 years older
Ideal age at marriage for women: 25.4 years
Therefore…ideal age of husband at marriage: 28.8 years
As you can see, men tend to focus on the youngest women in their already skewed preference pool, and, what’s more, they spend a significant amount of energy pursuing women even younger than their stated minimum. No matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age.
)
IV. The Socionist blog has an interesting analysis of male attractiveness over the life span.
I’ve divided qualities determining male attractiveness into 3 groups:
- Physical qualities: sexual maturity and potency, physical maturity, health and fitness level, probability of surviving through critical years of childraising
- Psychological qualities: self-confidence, charm, mental sharpness
- Ability to support a family materially: income, financial independence, social status and standing, capacity for work, ability to focus on productive activity
“Attractiveness” shall be defined as the sum of these three qualities.
Locking him down at his physical peak is the optimal female strategy, as this takes him off the market before his full MMV has been realized, and also while he is closest to the female ideal of 3.4 years older.
The Downsides to Dating an Older Guy
According to a recent survey of adult sexual behavior, men over the age of 40 were two to three times more likely to report a lack of sexual interest compared to men under the age of 30. In many cases, that precipitous drop-off has to do with a natural decrease in testosterone, the male sex hormone that allows you to sustain an erection, ejaculate and have an orgasm.
Studies show that most men experience a 2% drop-off in testosterone production each year after they turn 30. In addition to causing a lower libido, that decrease can also result in changes in mood and emotions, a decrease in strength due to loss of muscle tissue, and an increase in body fat. In other words, your loss of libido is perfectly timed to coincide with your brand new lard-ass physique and moody attitude. If that isn’t incentive to get married before you turn 40, we don’t know what is.
II. Compared with younger dads, older fathers pass on significantly more random genetic mutations to their children.
A study published in Nature finds that the age at which a father sires children determines how many mutations those offspring inherit. By starting families in their thirties, forties and beyond, men could be increasing the chances that their children will develop autism, schizophrenia and other diseases often linked to new mutations. “The older we are as fathers, the more likely we will pass on our mutations,” says lead author Kári Stefánsson, chief executive of deCODE Genetics in Reykjavik. “The more mutations we pass on, the more likely that one of them is going to be deleterious.”
…Fathers passed on nearly four times as many new mutations as mothers: on average, 55 versus 14. The father’s age also accounted for nearly all of the variation in the number of new mutations in a child’s genome, with the number of new mutations being passed on rising exponentially with paternal age. A 36-year-old will pass on twice as many mutations to his child as a man of 20, and a 70-year-old eight times as many, Stefánsson’s team estimates.
III. Finally, while you may find a bit of gray in the sideburns sexy, keep in mind that a man’s age will affect his parenting style.
There’s something to be said for dealing with infants in one’s youth rather than middle age. Playing catch, roughhousing on the floor, and even pulling the inevitable all nighters get more difficult over time.
All in all, I recommend that women in their early to mid 20s focus their efforts on men in the 25-35 range. Young women are somewhat resistant to this idea, I have found. They tend to wonder why such a “great catch” is still on the market. Is he avoiding commitment? Is he a reformed player who’s trying to hop off the carousel and find a good girl to marry?
Listening recently to a woman describe relationship woes with a man ten years older than she is, I noticed her friends were quick to say, “That’s why he’s 32 and single.” That seems awfully harsh to me – 30 is the median marriage age for college educated women. Men are becoming increasingly resentful of this kind of scrutiny that questions their character simply because they are unmarried in their 30s.
Joshua Pompey fights back in 3 Misconceptions About Men Who Date a Lot of Women.
Sometimes women are way off-base with how they perceive men. This is especially true when it comes to the perception of men in society who are constantly dating different women.
There is a terrible stigma tied to these men. If a man dates many women and is single past a certain age, women often make the assumption that he must be flawed in some way, a womanizer or a man that refuse to grow up. Women will then label these men as guys who are not serious candidates for long-term relationships.
Pompey makes the following key points:
1. Most men are looking for a life partner.
The reality is that many men date multiple women for the same reasons women date a lot of men. They are looking for “the one.” A lot of these perceived players are simply playing the numbers game, hoping to find that special someone as quickly as possible so that they don’t have to endlessly date anymore.
While women sometimes assume these men are playboys who are having the time of their lives, in reality, most of these men are exhausted and would love nothing more than to settle down with the right girl. They just have not found the right woman yet and will keep trying until they do.
That’s in keeping with what Amber Madison found in her 10 city survey of single men:
On Openness to Relationships
- 99% of men would welcome a relationship with the right girl
- 73% said their primary interest in women is “someone to have a relationship with”
- 95% intend to marry
2. Quality men are in no rush – they understand that their MMV is increasing.
Quality men know that they deserve the best life has to offer. They aren’t going to just settle down with any pretty face because they know they deserve the best that life has to offer, not just whatever life has to offer.
These men know that there is a difference between an amazing girl and an amazing girl who is right for them.
They may stay single for years, knowing that at some point they will find what they are looking for. It is not a fear of commitment that keeps these men from settling down; it is a high sense of self-worth and the determination not to settle.
3. Quality men date as a means of shopping, and they are quick to exit once they’ve determined it’s not a match.
When high-quality men give the relationship a fair shot and it still doesn’t feel right, they don’t stay with women just for the sake of being with someone. They will try to do the right thing for both parties by ending the “mini relationship” sooner, rather than later.
The real motivation for cutting things off is that these men don’t want to waste time with the wrong person before it evolves into something more serious. They would rather go back to pursuing “the one,” despite the fact that their lives will likely be worse off in the short run.
In another sign that men feel the pressure, The Frisky asked six bachelors in their 30s about their state of mind after one guy friend worried that he was becoming a “toxic bachelor:”
I want to settle down. I want to start a family. Plus, I’m getting to that age where if I don’t do it soon, I’m in danger of becoming a ‘toxic bachelor.’A toxic bachelor is when it’s no longer cute to be single, and seems sad and desperate instead.
Four of the six could strongly relate, while two were not affected:
The Editor, 36
It’s not an internal thing for me. I don’t think I’m toxic. But I have sensed from people around me that they’re starting to think that of me. That I’m broken. Forever. It’s kind of enraging, actually.
…I have maybe one friend who envies my singlehood. And I have lots of friends who envy the fact that my time is all my own—but that’s because they have kids. It doesn’t have to do with being married. But I think most people would be terrified to be in my position. Which is why they assume there’s something wrong with me.
The Producer, 34
Nope, I think timelines and cut-off dates are mainly a female pathology driven by biology/society cocktail.
The Comic Book Writer, 35
I definitely do worry about that. Age is a factor. In occasional paranoid brainstorms, I sometimes wonder if being divorced is preferential to being single at a certain point. Because at least you tried and someone tried with you.
…For men, 40 seems an obvious tipping point and it’s earlier than that if someone isn’t involved with anyone.
The Music Critic, 32
HUGE. For me, it isn’t such a feeling of being “toxic” as being “creepy.”
I think men also feel an anxiety when their friends are partnering off and having children. My friends constantly tell me “you’re so lucky!” and “you’re free!” But they don’t understand that it becomes more difficult to connect with people as the years trundle on. And this perceived “toxicity” is part of it, I think. But men absolutely feel a sense of shame or anxiety when their peers are all booed up and they’re not.
The Community Organizer, 37
What if I am one of those sad sack bachelors hitting on too young women at the bar? I’m already often the oldest guy in the room at social events. But I haven’t had a hard time dating and finding someone who is interested.
The Texan, 37
That sounds like a term invented by a woman projecting. I don’t care what people think about me. I just don’t. I never have and I never will.
…It’s a stupid concept. As stupid as anyone who would judge a woman for being single at 40 or 30 or 22.
…Many men, I think, wake up one day and realize they didn’t really choose to be a bachelor, and that it might be too late to have a family.
To Summarize:
Dating a man 5-10 years older carries significant benefits and minimal downsides. While you may not want to focus exclusively on older guys, I recommend that this be one strategy in your portfolio. There really is something very sexy about a bit of gray in the sideburns.
You’ll need to be extra vigilant to filter out cads who have no intentions of committing to anyone, but you’ll also find this to be a group of men who are more financially secure, socially adept, well-rounded intellectually and emotionally stable. They’re likely to be highly motivated to settle down compared to their bro competitors.
It goes without saying that you’ll need to be a quality woman worthy of commitment. Your youth and beauty may get you the date, but they won’t suffice for the real deal.
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In my opinion, 27-35 really is the sweet spot for men. Mmmmmmmmmm!
Every time I see a cartoon by that person, whoever it is, I think “Bitchy girl who deserves to be alone.”
Is anyone else still wondering what the reason “Why?” is?
Fixed that for you.
It should not be surprising that men, in general, cast a wider net and focus on the more fertile. However, this seems odd when we are raised in a PC culture.
Marry a man 10 years older and you could be in for a 20+ year widowhood.
Susan, I have mentioned this before, which means that you may have already answered it, but, I can only remember hearing that 1/2 * Man’s Age + 7 rule once when I was a child, and I remember it was from someone who was laughing about it (oh, isn’t that awful…that kind of thing).
However, since coming here, I have heard it used quite a few times. The only time I can ever remember this being used in popular culture was a vague reference to it by Alec Baldwin, as Jack Donaghy, saying that he is turning 50, which is like turning 32 for you (he said to Tina Fey as Liz Lemon). They never actually mentioned the rule so it was a little nugget for those in the know.
So, I guess my question is, outside of HUS, is anyone actually incorporating this rule of thumb into their advice?
“Men are becoming increasingly resentful of this kind of scrutiny that questions their character simply because they are unmarried in their 30s.”
I never encountered this and I didn’t seriously date until I was in my 40s after my divorce. However, I do agree the scrutiny on men is ridiculous since it is women that are delaying marriage and thus, many men remained unmarried.
Looking at the Male Attractiveness graph, is there a cutoff? It seems like above 225 is ideal. This means ages 25 to 55 is best for women to date. As he ages above 25, he is on the incline, but after 55, he is on the decline.
“A lot of these perceived players are simply playing the numbers game, hoping to find that special someone as quickly as possible so that they don’t have to endlessly date anymore.”
It is true that the longer a man dates, it is less likely that he will be satisfied with the one he will marry. It is wrong for the woman to not pursue marriage with an older man merely for age differences. In fact, she may need to take the initiative in order to achieve the marriage. Otherwise, she gave him the excuse to break up with her with her reticence.
It is more risk for the older woman beyond 30 to show any waffling.
Aristotle (Politics VII 16) says men should marry at 37, women at 18.
I definitely encountered this sentiment. My first boss in my first “real” job was about 10 years older than me. I was just married when I started and he was (and remains) a bachelor. We socialized with him a few times and my wife liked him but she said very early “If he’s unmarried at that age, there’s something wrong with him.”
In hindsight, I think she was right, not that there is anything truly “wrong” with him but that he had certain traits that made him unattractive for marriage.
Susan, you really need to an article on the benefits to early-twenties women from having a no-strings hot affair with a dapper guy in his late 40s.
Well-done, Susan.
As a 37 year old bachelor, I have no trouble getting dates with younger women, and am becoming very choosy about who I date. A smoking hot 29 year old single mom has been trying to lock me down for the better part of a year. But.. options.. include a 24 year old model and brilliant psychology grad student, and many mid-30′s women… I think I’ll hold off until I find “the one” since my SMV is high and will peak with an upcoming income boost.
Oh, and re: the downsides of dating older men–such as decreased libido and longevity–men who are into physical fitness will mitigate or obliterate both of these boundaries. I’m physically much stronger and have a better body than at any previous time, my libido has diminished not a lick, and I have much more ability to sexually connect with and electrify my partner.
“Marry a man 10 years older and you could be in for a 20+ year widowhood.”
Indeed, Escoffier. Not only that, if a woman enjoys regular sex, chances are that when she is over forty her husband may have less of a libido or ED issues.
I for one am glad my husband is only two years older than me. Our libidos are similarly matched, and he is in VERY good health.
Maybe I am the odd one. But companionship and sex have always meant more to me than money and status. Always.
Your SMV graphs bear an uncanny resemblance to another SMV graph:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/
“The appropriate age for marriage is around eighteen for girls and thirty-seven for men.” – Aristotle
My husband and I are the same age. We met at 25, and we got married at 26. He got his master’s at 27, and didn’t start his first well-paying job until then. But now, over a year later, he is starting to become a real catch, but too late! He’s already mine.
What does this leave <25yo men?
Ask out HS grads?
Even with the best I could possible have to offer, what 25yo girl isn't going to be able to find a 25-35yo man that can top it?
*crawl to cave*
Revo Luzione is spot on and Kathy is merely speculating. I’m forty-two, about to marry a thirty-year old, and have never been in as good shape or sexually-driven in my entire life as I am now. Not that the research is wrong, but as with most research it generalizes across the spectrum. Outliers on both ends occur.
Pompey’s writing is succinct: I serial dated only in order to find the right match, not to revolve through conquests (as I successfully did that up into my mid-thirties). My sexual market value at 40 – still good-looking, quite athletic and both emotionally and financially stable – allowed me to ‘next’ women much as 20-something hotties ‘next’ men. I simply got to the point where I knew what I was looking for and screened for it… and she happened to be twelve years younger, level-headed, feminine (not feminist!), family-oriented and ready to be with a man who knows how to lead.
There is no ‘one.’ That’s a myth. When a man is finally ready to settle down, he’ll take the best woman his SMV can barter for and make it work… the way it’s always been, from Aristotle to today.
@Rollo
I beg to differ, they look nothing alike!. Note the overlap in the OKCupid graph. If SMV is a measure of how sexually attractive a woman finds a man, then men peak at 28. A woman forfeits some male SMV if she goes over that, but it’s still worth the tradeoff until about age 35 or so. After that his physical attractiveness declines.
Keep in mind, it depends on the woman’s age – but the female preference for a man just 4 years older is real, and few women will go up 10 years without significant financial inducement.
Hum…
After my first wife and I got divorced I spent a number of hours in a local health spy. I was 40 at the time, and honestly, pretty shell shocked. I didn’t particularly want to get involved just then, and I wasn’t looking, particularly.
But one evening, as I was going nowhere fast on an exercise cycle, I overheard a young lady, who frequented the spa regularly, talking to the one certified spa Lothario. He was about 40 also, and somehow he got around to asking her how old she was. She answered “17″.
That got rid of him. Apparently that was her intent, because after he left, I turned to her and just said that I didn’t believe she was actually 17. She wasn’t. She told me she was 24 (and wanted to get rid of him).
That admission was enough. Granted, I really didn’t look my age back then, and she was very mature for 24. But it really seemed to work despite the age difference, at least, short term. We dated a bit and had a great time for about six weeks before she gave me a brief apology and returned to the other coast.
Ah, what could have been!
“Looking at the Male Attractiveness graph, is there a cutoff?”
Men are at their most attractive 27-40. Some men are very attractive after 40. Very few after 50. Men that are attractive to young women past 40 take care of themselves, age well, are successful, confident and wealthy. They are in a minority. I’m 22 and it does occasionally happen that I meet a man in his 40s I find attractive.
I am the only one of my friends that are remotely interested in men over 35. If I’m single at 30 (God forbid) I’d expand the age group.
It puzzles me when people talk about men and aging as if most men turn into George Clooney at 47. A very small minority of men have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they’re almost 50 (of course depending on what they’re definition of what “gorgeous” is).
“Kathy is merely speculating”
Er, no.
Large age gaps may be fine initially, but as people age things change.
Being alone is indeed a prospect that should concern a woman who marries a man 10+ years older than herself.
My own grandmother was a widow at 70. My grandfather died at age 80.
After he died she went down hill. Was never the same. She developed alzheimers. Talked constantly about my grandfather . It was heartbreaking to watch.Eventually my mother had to put her in a home because she could no longer care for her. She died recently age 92.. Twenty two years without her beloved husband.
That was something that I never wanted to go through.
When Olive talks about her Uncle and Aunt’s 25-30 age gap, saying that they are very happy, it always makes me very sad. Sometime in the near future her Aunt will most probably be a grieving widow too. And quite possiblely for many years, too, just like my grandmother.
Better to marry someone closer in age, because chances are that you will end up spending more time together with the one that you love.
It’s easy to forget about this kind of thing when you are young and seemingly invincible.
A very small minority of men have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they’re almost 50
True. But it is rather pertinent that the number of men who have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they are 25 isn’t much larger. The attractive older guys tend to compete well when it comes to the gorgeous ones because they have more money and status.
That being said, I married a girl two years younger when I was at what Susan considers to be the most attractive male age and I don’t have any reason to regret it.
VD: I agree that some older men “compete well” but 50-something men can (if they’re lucky) compete for 30-something women. I never see a smouldering girl my age with a 50 year old. Even if he’s a millionaire. I could still get a 40 year old millionaire. Or a 30 year old one. And 50 year olds aren’t more likely to be that rich – most of the great wealth out there comes from inheritance – they’ve had it all along. A 50 year old man is more likely to be in the “well off” league, but well off doesn’t get you Candice Swanepoel. The money and success can compensate for the age to a certain point, but most men look too ‘tired’ after 50. I generally have a thing for older men, but they usually pass my limit around 47.
I’d say men peak anywhere from 28 to 45, depending on where he starts out, and I consider men who do great with women 45+ exceptions.
Kathy, your personal anecdotes are just that; personal observations.
Basing your relationship choices on what “may” happen given a medium to large age gap is still just speculation.
Two people may be the same age and one gets run over by a bus, shot in a burglary or drop dead from an aneurism. You still end up with a widow or widower. Life is too indeterminate to base your relationship choices on mere biological chronology.
However, an older man and a younger woman is a much better formula for marital success. An older man is established, less prone to let his affections meander, and MUCH less likely to fall prey to a young woman’s shit tests; his younger counterparts generally do not have the wisdom that comes with experience.
From a girl’s POV: in my mind, older men do not “compete” with younger men. They are two different categories. He needs to be that full package to be an option.
The genetics thing is rather interesting, hmm. My parents were married at 20 and 32, but waited 7 years to have kids. As a result, my dad was nearly 40 when I was born, and guess who has a rare genetic condition, with a 50% chance of passing it on to each kid she has?
No way, man, she’ll be very happy. She’s a total gold-digger. Keep in mind this is my uncle’s second wife, and she’s just a few years older than his daughter from his first marriage. Blech. This woman is also really bitchy, so pardon if I seem biased against her, it’s because I am.
I do feel bad for their kids though. They have two, both very young, and my uncle probably won’t be around much longer. He’s not in the best of health.
As a man approaching 50, I have to point out that a woman rejecting anyone part 40 or so isn’t getting any younger herself.
I don’t expect to date 20-somethings. Nor early 30s. Over 35? That’s another matter. Though geography is NOT my friend.
yet another reason for dudes to avoid getting fat in their 20s…
@ Marie
Yeah, I agree. I know very few men that I would consider attractive that are 40 and older. Men 35 and younger are where it’s at. I think the oldest man I would possibly consider dating right now would be 37-39, and that’s pushing it. It’s pretty rare, in my opinion, for a man to age into a “silver fox”. As Susan noted, monetary compensation often makes up for other departments that are lacking.
@Ramble
Interesting, while I was researching this post I came across a raging debate among evo psychologists. Some believe that men are most attracted to women who seem maximally reproductive – over a period of time, beginning in their teens. Others believe men are most attracted to women who are fertile now.
However, we need not quibble. Youth = fertility.
@Escoffier
xkcd is written by one Randall Munroe.
So, worse, a supplicator who thinks writing trite anti-male cartoons in which the bitchy girl always humiliates the idiot male will get him laid.
Definitely agree with the strong interest in mid 30s men wanting a relationship. My social circle’s remaining men in that demographic, myself included, have mostly expressed a desire for stability and a family.
A certain Californian has taken this single Dad off the market…:) here’s hoping it keeps that way. Just need to spend more time in SF. We are in SE Asia for a holiday at the moment very much missing her now
@Ramble
I actually hadn’t thought of the rule, I was researching age differences and it was everywhere! I was surprised to see it so frequently referenced, as I had not heard of it before HUS either.
This graph thingy is wrong.
There is no way that the average 75 year old is more appealing than the average 15 year old.
Less illegal, sure.
Less appealing, nope.
@Olive:
“The genetics thing is rather interesting, hmm. My parents were married at 20 and 32, but waited 7 years to have kids. As a result, my dad was nearly 40 when I was born, and guess who has a rare genetic condition, with a 50% chance of passing it on to each kid she has?”
This is kind of my argument against older parents (meaning 30+ when they start having kids).
My mother was dead from breast cancer at 50 and my father was disabled from a stroke before 55.
@ Escoffier
xkcd is a lot more than you think. What Susan posts is just a small subset of the humour here http://xkcd.com/ Randall has a more math/tech focus than anything else
http://xkcd.com/520/
http://xkcd.com/461/
http://xkcd.com/356/
http://xkcd.com/644/
http://xkcd.com/808/
Oh, and I would say that this is probably sound advice
http://xkcd.com/400/
@Cooper
I confess I worried about you, INTJ and the other young guys while writing this – I didn’t want you to feel discouraged. Remember, I’m only recommending this as one possible strategy. You have the advantage of already knowing women this age – they are in your social circle. What you lack in lifetime achievement you gain in proximity. But you may have to wait a couple of years for your SMV to increase
@jp
“There is no way that the average 75 year old is more appealing than the average 15 year old.”
Tell it to Anne Nicole Smith.
Wait, is she still alive?
@Marie
Yes. I’ve read that for every inch of height below a certain threshold, males need to have a certain increased annual salary to compensate. It’s the same with older men. A 50 yo in good shape can not compete with a 28 yo male in his prime based on physical SMV. He must sweeten the deal with some number of $ and status. Even then we’re not talking your average UMC gent who’s divorced his wife. We’re talking huge bucks. To wit, Ron Perelman with Ellen Barkin:
@Susan
“Yes. I’ve read that for every inch of height below a certain threshold, males need to have a certain increased annual salary to compensate. ”
For a specific SMV or all SMVs of women?
@Esco, Susan
“Every time I see a cartoon by that person, whoever it is, I think “Bitchy girl who deserves to be alone.”
xkcd is written by one Randall Munroe.”
Here is my favorite xkcd — and I use it often!
===
Esco, how uncharitable of you!
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png
He is a great webcom creator and has not had an easy time. His fiancee (now wife) was in Stage III cancer the last time I heard. Hopefully her health is improving.
@Susan
Re: RP & EB– I believe that marriage (his 4th, I think?) ended in a rather acrimonious and uber-expensive divorce. Last time I heard, he is on marriage #5 and child #7.
BTW: I suppose “expensive” is relative to billionaires. But I remember hearing about a colossal diamond collection and 10s of millions of dollars in alimony. It sounds insane to us, but it’s probably less than 5% of his net worth.
@Robber
I’ve been thinking of you, so good to have an update! I assume this is the lawyer? Have you introduced her to your son yet? I am so happy for you. You were ready, and you struck gold very quickly!
@JP
I’m so sorry to hear that you lost your mom so early! 50 is such a young age. And your dad having a stroke early too – that must have been so very difficult.
Damn those OKCupid and Socionist graphs are depressing. Five more years to go for me…
@INTJ
Dude, those graphs are indicators of trends– not Gospel truth! You could meet someone perfect for you *tomorrow*. You are co-authoring a paper, have musical skillz (I still think you should learn the violin version of Smooth Criminal– it’s not hard!) and are really cute from your pic!
What you focus on, you will get more of. Don’t let charts your life.
Oops! Don’t let charts RULE your life. Sorry bout that, INTJ!
@Lokland
I was thinking of this study:
http://www.tressugar.com/Shorter-Men-Need-Earn-More-Compete-Taller-Men-When-Dating-10497397
It’s based on online dating, though – where the checklists are ultra-superficial.
@ Cooper:
You’re doing a lot right. Honestly? I’m betting you’ll have a girlfriend by next year. It’s really only a matter of time.
@ INTJ:
That reminds me, I’ve been meaning to ask…how exactly is your goal to get a girlfriend coming along? We rarely hear field reports from you. Met anyone cute lately?
He seems like a truly wonderful man. I love his humor, though some of it goes over my head.
@Susan
Online dating, for people without social skills.
“It’s based on online dating, though – where the checklists are ultra-superficial.”
I did an experiment about a month ago just to see. The results with in the first 24 hours pretty much confirm that short guys aren’t just not wanted but actively hated against.
Result: (On HotOrNot), of photo I showed you, just me +2 others.
No height listed, Photos: 8.1, 8.3, 8.5 (as of now)
12 messages, 3 willing to meet, 2 maybes
Height Listed, Photo 4.33, 4.5, 5.0 (as of now)
o messages, o willing to meet, o maybes.
@Jackie
I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.
@Cooper
Aw, Coop!
See my post to INTJ.
Your time will come. I know you don’t believe me, but I would be willing to put down money on it happening within the year.
@Susan
Me either! Just from what I have read of him –WITHOUT the pics– he is pretty repulsive.
I think, though, if you have any kind of hole or lack within you, it can do strange things. I have known people who have grown up in really abject poverty. The kind that has sheared steel into their souls. And they go one of two ways. Either they become obsessed with materialism and moolah, or else they become profoundly generous.
Also, the cultural narrative of marrying someone rich and living HEA is *very* strong in our culture. You don’t see too many tropes of marrying the middle-class guy and living “frugally ever after” ha ha!
For your cohort, maybe. For others it’s a viable way to meet different people. I know I wouldn’t have ever met my BF in my current circles, and given the incredibly stressful pressure I was under on my previous team, it’s unlikely I would have met anyone else!
In NYC especially, online dating is a norm. Many of my friends met their SOs through OKC. It was the best way to break out of the limp college scene.
Maybe we will, who knows. The recession did a number on the financial long-term thinking of our generation…
@SW
“For your cohort, maybe.”
Your 23-24, I’m 2-3 years older than you depending on the time of year.
We are the same age cohort.
“For others it’s a viable way to meet different people.”
I’m 5′ 7” the only viable way to meet people is exuding over the top charisma and confidence whilst at the same time not being to arrogant as to get labelled mentally disabled.
Internet dating and short do not go hand in hand.
That’s interesting. It would seem that both could be true: the less impulsive and more prepared would employ the former and the more impulsive would employ the latter. However, it seems that the opposite is true today.
@Lokland
“I’m 5′ 7” the only viable way to meet people is exuding over the top charisma and confidence whilst at the same time not being to arrogant as to get labelled mentally disabled.
Internet dating and short do not go hand in hand.”
===
Seeing as you’re already married, no problem, right?
Also: What the hey, dude? You are always going on about being short, but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.” I was thinking you were like 5’0″ or something from your posts!
And even if you were, c’mon! Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show! (Except around his dad, unfortch
) And the actor sounds like he has an awesome life, too.
Weird, for some reason I thought you were in your late 30s…
OK, got it.
Then the difference must be geographical instead of generational. Like I said, online dating is normal in NYC (where people are stressed to the death over their careers and have run out of numbers in their rolodexes).
No worries, I get it.
@SW
“Weird, for some reason I thought you were in your late 30s…”
Funny story, I’ve been getting that since I was 15.
Someone was recently explaining the ins and outs of drinking and how to ask permission from your elders to me (different culture). She said I would need to say X to you, I kinda did a double take, WTF?. She’s nearing 30…..
I know, right? I’ve dated guys that were 5’6″!
Speaking of alpha short guys…Peter Dinklage gets posted pretty frequently on r/LadyBoners over at Reddit.
@Jackie
“Seeing as you’re already married, no problem, right?”
Yup. My experiment was spurred by a discussion that occurred here. Needed to see if it was true, and it was.
“Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show!”
My favourite series.
Definitely bad ass. I like Snow and Tywin Lannista however.
“You are always going on about being short, but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.” I was thinking you were like 5’0″ or something from your posts!”
Lets not get into this.
I won’t be happy and Susan will be annoyed I hijacked her thread.
I already made my point.
The problem is, most girls in their early 20′s are not mature enough to date an older guy. I’m currently in college, living with my parents and in my free time I go to football games and study (and watch GoT of course
). A big chunck of my humour is internet based. It works out with my boyfriend (who’s a year older) but I would look like a fool in a date with a 30yr old. Not to mention, where would I even meet an older guy?
There are plenty of late 20′s, early 30′s guys I find attractive, but I wouldn’t feel confident in dating somebody who was much older.
The Socionists pulled that chart out of his ass. The labels on the Y axis and the circles make it look like the chart is based off real data, but it’s just based on his hunch. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC CHART.
@Game of Thrones fans
I love fat, cowardly but good-hearted Sam!
I loved how Sam fell in love with pregnant Gilly, one of the many daughter wives of the old man Craster north of the Wall and gave her that thimble from his mother (or whatever it was). And yes, I’m cheering for him to fatly and deliciously fuck her and be fucked by her even though it would be adultery (adultery that trumps incest can’t be that wrong, can it! lol).
That is, if he survives the advancing white walkers and wights.
The OK Cupid chart is misleading too. OK Cupid is a young demographic, so the chart primarily shows who is attractive to young people.
It’s true that as a man gets older, he will have a tougher time dating 20 year olds. But as long as he keeps adjusting the age of his women up to compensate his aging, dating will become easier and easier. And for women, dating becomes harder and harder.
The only reason a man needs to worry about getting older is if he wants children. It will always be easier for him to find a wife next year than this year, so why rush?
“Why You Should Date an Older Guy”
For a minute, I thought I had accidently logged onto the AskMen forum.
Hm, so, at 36, I am just past a male peak’s value
Good I have secured the relationships already 
But then, I bet not one of you would have guessed my age correctly. WHen I say than I am older than I look, people look at me carefully and say “so you are what, 30?”
I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.
Spoken like a true daughter of the upper middle class… it reminds me a little of when my father couldn’t figure out why anyone thought calculus was hard. Gee, I don’t know, maybe because NOT EVERYONE GOES TO GRAD SCHOOL AT MIT. But at least you grasp the radical notion that others may not think and feel exactly like you do at all times. If you’re a hot young woman who can’t make rent in a studio apartment and puts a premium on having clothes, shoes, expensive purses, and travel to exotic locales, sleeping with Ron Perelman probably looks like a dream scenario.
I was remiss in failing to convey, Susan, my congratulations on such a bold post. You are absolutely correct, and the need to date and marry older is one of the logical consequences of the current SMP. Far too few are spelling this out for young women today.
Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show! (Except around his dad, unfortch
)
Not even close. First, Tywin is easily the most alpha. Tyrion isn’t alpha at all. He trades on his family influence, has to buy his women, and is also overshadowed by Jamie and Ned. Glibness, guile, and passive-aggressiveness are not hallmarks of the alpha.
Tyrion’s self-confidence is feigned, except for his belief in his intelligence. He’s banking on the idea that no one is going to hit a cripple.
I grew up raised by a single mother who worked housekeeping and waitressing, and she told me to find a rich husband and not care about love. But she was also incredibly frugal and did not indulge me. So I never cared for shoes, purses, jewelry, designer labels, fashion or travel. I’d much rather marry for love, to a good man that I am genuinely attracted to, and that is what I did.
To each his/her own, though. Considering how many men here have denigrated gold-diggers, I’m surprised by the approval of it — I guess it’s groovy if you’re really hot.
Doomwolf – “Oh, and I would say that this is probably sound advice
http://xkcd.com/400/”
LOL man. I have multiple Rhapsody playlists JUST for doing the ‘deed’ in several different genres so I can quickly queue up whatever “mood” I’m in at the time. Nothing brings fun-time to a prompt halt like “You Spin Me Round” blasting from the speakers just as we are getting to the good stuff… (and yes, I know this from experience unfortunately.)
@VD:
” it reminds me a little of when my father couldn’t figure out why anyone thought calculus was hard. Gee, I don’t know, maybe because NOT EVERYONE GOES TO GRAD SCHOOL AT MIT. ”
This isn’t true. There’s a certain kind of intellectual intuition that makes many math and abstract concepts essentially transparent.
It’s related to grasping the underlying unity of the concept.
Once you unlock the subject, like calculus, the entire system falls into place like sandblasting a soup cracker because you see the unity.
Ergo, I was able to sleep through calculus and skip class and have zero concern about getting a grade anywhere near failing.
It’s a mental feature more than “going to grad school at MIT” and only applies to certain mathematical/scientific domains.
“I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.”
For her part, Ellen Barkin hasn’t aged well either. She was positively smokin’ hot in The Big Easy and Sea of Love. Barkin hit The Wall at least a decade ago. Compare and contrast her photos: Google “Ellen Barkin” and then Google “young Ellen Barkin”. As a young woman in her 20s and early 30s she was sexy as hell.
I will say this: Wikipedia lists a birthdate of April 1954 for her. That means she was early 30s when Big Easy came out. She’s 58 now and looks pretty good for that age. But keep in mind: Barkin is a respected stage and screen actress, married to one of the wealthiest men in the country. She can command virtually unlimited money and resources for personal trainers, nutrition consultants, makeup artists and cosmetic surgery. She probably spends at least one to three hours a day keeping in shape. most women don’t do that, and in fact most cannot.
I’ve heard mixed things about online dating, but what else do you expect? I also hear mixed things about meeting guys in bars, crushing on bosses, being set up by your grandma and giving your number to the cute barista.
Your odds of meeting a SO online are probably around 10-20%. It can be time consuming, but if you’re in a dry spell or have nothing on the horizon, it deserves a place in the portfolio of strategies.
@ GudEnuf
” The OK Cupid chart is misleading too. OK Cupid is a young demographic, so the chart primarily shows who is attractive to young people.
Yeah, I would be interested in seeing a chart like that for a site like Match.com — there are few women or men over 35 on OkC from what I’ve seen.
” It’s true that as a man gets older, he will have a tougher time dating 20 year olds. But as long as he keeps adjusting the age of his women up to compensate his aging, dating will become easier and easier. And for women, dating becomes harder and harder.”
I can see your point here … I suppose technically you could even say a 90 y/o man has better odds than an 80 y/o man because of the differences in life expectancies and how many more women than men are still alive at that age. But if you look at more than just raw numbers I think guys in their 30′s have a better “selection” than men in their 40′s and certainly 50′s especially if you’re a guy who is not interested in being a step-dad and would prefer to be with a never-married/no kids woman.
@Deti:
“She probably spends at least one to three hours a day keeping in shape. most women don’t do that, and in fact most cannot.”
Okay. I’ll bite. If you’re single, why not? Even with a nine hour work day and an hour commute each way (absolute worst case scenario) that leaves ample time.
Three hours a day may be excessive but even just one hour/day is supposedly far, far above the average, yet I have no problem fitting that in with a full time career.
Obviously! I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I simply found it informative and sensible. He did a nice job with the graphic. I do think his “sum attractiveness” is bogus, though.
All true. I would not say the OK Cupid chart is misleading, though, as it perfectly represents my target audience. This post is specifically written for women in their 20s.
You are right about men – as long as they revise their expectations to increasing female age commensurate with their own, they should find dating easier. Whether single women in their 30s represent the optimal strategy for males is another question, and one I have not attempted to answer.
Because the highest value women get snapped up.
I don’t think so. Instead of going for a fat, ugly boor she could opt for some IB all-star half his age making a very nice living indeed. I mean, how many Range Rovers can one woman drive?
And the price! Talk about instilling dread! I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.
One last thing – Ellen Barkin was hardly poor. And for the dumb, hot young woman who is, I suggest that she take her below average IQ and work for a living. It looks like one winds up waiting tables either way!
Thank you sir.
For the record, Perelman and Barkin had a pre-nup which stipulated that after a certain date she would be eligible to receive some rather large chunk of his fortune in the event of divorce. Literally the day before her options were set to vest, he moved all her stuff out of his townhouse and locked her out. It was a big story in the NYC tabloids, complete with photos of her on the streets cursing a blue streak at the house.
“The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.””
Comments like this are why the manosphere exists.
Comments like this provide evidentiary support for the “all wimminz is beyotches” trope that you hate. Do you realize you just threw some gasoline on the smoldering embers of that fire?
Do you realize that a large number of ordinary average men in their 30s to their 50s are going to resemble this man (balding, paunchy, out of shape)? In fact most of them won’t look even as good as Perelman does. These are the beta men (confident, competent, accomplished, kind, nondominant) you’re telling your female readers to marry and whom you say are attractive. And here you are running them down, essentially telling them they are physically repulsive.
Susan can clarify what she meant by the Perelman comment, if she meant him physically or what is known about his personality. I will say, re: the later, is that he has a reputation for being a gigantic a-hole.
“Instead of going for a fat, ugly boor she could opt for some IB all-star half his age making a very nice living indeed. I mean, how many Range Rovers can one woman drive?
And the price! Talk about instilling dread! I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”
Susan, you want to know why men are bitter and angry? In large part because of comments like these. Every divorced man out there has an ex wife who has said things like this about him. Pretty nasty stuff. But hey, it’s your blog.
Esco:
Oh, I think it’s pretty clear what Susan meant.
“fat, ugly boor”
“I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”
This is what women think of their aging, not so physically attractive husbands. Though Susan apparently doesn’t think this of her husband, she is certainly giving voice to those who do.
This isn’t true. There’s a certain kind of intellectual intuition that makes many math and abstract concepts essentially transparent.
Congratulations. In attempting to make yourself look highly intelligent, you’ve demonstrated that you can’t read as well as the common howler monkey. The point is not that MIT post-grads are the only people capable of easily grasping calculus, it is that MOST PEOPLE FIND CALCULUS TO BE DIFFICULT.
If I’d chosen the example of Reggie Miller and three-point shooting instead, would you have claimed “this isn’t true” and argued that you can shoot threes well?
@deti
“This is what women think of their aging, not so physically attractive husbands. Though Susan apparently doesn’t think this of her husband, she is certainly giving voice to those who do.”
No, that’s how she feels about marrying an ugly but rich old man for his money when you’re not attracted to him. The dude is almost 70. If his wife was 65, it would be another matter.
My question to Susan: Whatever happened to “ugly sexy”? Maybe these women find him “ugly sexy” because of his outsized and dominant personality.
@Deti
Deti, the repulsiveness of Perelman is in his character (or lack thereof, rather). He is spiritually and morally grotesque.
I have seen men much fatter, shorter and less conventionally than RP who are truly loved by their wives. I know quite a few, in fact, especially in the older generation!
@ SayWhaat
Well I have a goal to get not just any girlfriend, but a girlfriend who’ll be a future wife.
Did meet this girl during astronomy study group but turned out she had a boyfriend. Not taking any non-STEM classes this semester, so that cuts down on the interactions with girls.
“Not even close. First, Tywin is easily the most alpha. Tyrion isn’t alpha at all. He trades on his family influence, has to buy his women, and is also overshadowed by Jamie and Ned. Glibness, guile, and passive-aggressiveness are not hallmarks of the alpha.
Tyrion’s self-confidence is feigned, except for his belief in his intelligence. He’s banking on the idea that no one is going to hit a cripple.”
===
I should have added “in my opinion.” The men I regard as alpha are much different than many of the definitions I’ve seen. Tyrion has retained empathy in the face of horrific abuse and a kind of integrity. To me, that kind of strength and resilience is beyond impressive; seeing as denigrating into sociopathy is pretty much the Lannister default.
To me, Tywin is pathetic, and his insanely dysfunctional descendants are more than proof of that. And that’s not even counting the incest or Joffrey!
@vd
“Congratulations. In attempting to make yourself look highly intelligent, you’ve demonstrated that you can’t read as well as the common howler monkey”
Well, I think I read pretty well, but your prior post was poorly written (perish the thought). It was, at best, ambiguous. But, read literally, most would take it to mean that attending MIT was what magically made him able to understand calculus, rather than the other way around (i.e., his innate understanding of such things allowed him to attend grad school at MIT). Now, I wouldn’t have assumed that that’s what you meant, but it’s what you said.
And, ironically, I think it’s you who misread JP’s post. His point was that was that some people just have that intellectual intuition, which others don’t (which is essentially the same as yours, I think). But we’ll refrain from calling you a howler monkey.
In other words, Reggie Miller had a natural knack for shooting threes. Playing for God’s team at UCLA didn’t magically transform him into a good three point shooter.
Jackie:
“Deti, the repulsiveness of Perelman is in his character (or lack thereof, rather). He is spiritually and morally grotesque.”
That’s not what Susan said. Perhaps that is your opinion, but it’s not what Susan said. She referred to — and recoiled from — Perelman’s physical attributes, not his character defects.
The point is that a lot of women view in this way men who are not classically physically attractive. Susan is tacitly supporting it, and I’m simply pointing it out. I’m also pointing out that this attitude, which Susan has given voice to, is one of the primary reasons the manosphere exists.
Susan has wondered where the hostility and anger comes from. I’m saying the attitude and opinion she expressed is one of the reasons why.
Just as it’s delusional to assume that all men age into Clooney, it’s just as unfair to assume that all men age and look like Perlman. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
There’s a set of men in my office in their 40s that look after themselves, and while no one would confuse them for a fresh college grad they’re not even close to paunchy, and in fact can still run rings around the mid 20s guys. Hell, one keeps up with college kids reffing basketball games and barely breaks a sweat. All other things being equal, given equal time and effort training, yes, the younger guys would win, but the fact is, they don’t put in the effort to do so, so it’s kind of a moot point.
With proper diet, training, supplementation, and yes, plastic surgery if needed, it’s not too hard to err much more towards the side of Clooney for men.
deti, would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?
I don’t comment on looks much, but most people do get that gold diggers aren’t into much older men’s looks. It’s the pocketbooks they’re after. That was the point Susan was making.
And is it really controversial to say that most people don’t continue to look great into their 60s, as compared to 20-30 years younger? That was the counterpoint to “go after older men.” 20-something year old going for a 30 year old is one thing. 40 is eyebrow-raising, 50 is stretching it, and 60 is outlier of outliers.
Bully:
“Just as it’s delusional to assume that all men age into Clooney, it’s just as unfair to assume that all men age and look like Perlman. The truth is somewhere in the middle.”
Agreed. And I didn’t say that “all men age and look like Perelman”. What I said was:
“a large number of ordinary average men in their 30s to their 50s are going to resemble [Perelman].”
Yes, men can and should look after themselves. They should keep their weight down, and look their best. I’m not saying men are entitled to hot women when they are classically physically unattractive. The only reason Ron Perelman was able to pull Ellen Barkin (even when she was 46 and well past her prime) was because of his money. I get that.
Again, here’s the point:
“The point is that a lot of women view in this way men who are not classically physically attractive. Susan is tacitly supporting it, and I’m simply pointing it out. I’m also pointing out that this attitude, which Susan has given voice to, is one of the primary reasons the manosphere exists.”
@Ramble
I guess my question is, outside of HUS, is anyone actually incorporating this rule of thumb into their advice?
I’ve heard male commenters, particularly those seeking involvements with younger women, at Roissy and elsewhere in the ‘sphere quote this maxim seriously. I don’t hear it much IRL.
Personally, find a gap of more than ten years problematic. It may be OK during one’s middle years, but as we age those ten years can seem like a lot more. Who wants to spend their still healthy 60s taking care of a sick or senile 80 year old? Obviously, there are people who do it and should be commended for faithfulness to a sick spouse, but I have a hard time in understanding why someone might voluntarily sign up for that.
Considering that my mom and dad lived till 87 and 92 respectively and my in-laws died young, I sort of expect to be a widow. I sometimes wonder, were I to be widowed, if I would find a new relationship. I do doubt though that, were I a healthy and fit 70 year old, that I’d want to take on the health problems of an 80 year old guy. In fact, I know widows in that position who refuse the attentions of frailer men. They’ve already lost one man and don’t want to nursemaid another.
@VD:
You are absolutely adorable.
I pointed out self-hugging several posts ago:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/who-we-are/201211/freud-was-self-hugger
@ deti – you need to read this rational male post:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/
Hope:
“would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?”
Thanks for making my point for me. Women do this all the time. In today’s world it is perfectly fine for women to express sexual revulsion about fat and ugly men. But if a man expresses that same sentiment in public and in writing about unattractive and overweight women, he’s a sexist pig jerk. There’s a double standard here.
“most people do get that gold diggers aren’t into much older men’s looks. It’s the pocketbooks they’re after. That was the point Susan was making.”
No, it’s not. Here’s the point she was making:
“fat, ugly boor”
“I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”
le biel:
1. I’m familiar with the post and the concepts it espouses, and agree with them fully. You can’t negotiate sexual desire. It’s either there or it isn’t. I understand that.
For the fourth time, the point is this: There’s a lot of anger and bitterness and hostility in the manosphere. The hostess of this blog hates it. She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive. She gives tacit support to that thought process. I think it’s unwise, short sighted and offensive; and will just give her detractors more fodder for unfair criticism.
2. Be careful about linking to He Who Shall Not Be Named here.
OK, so, that jibes with what I am seeing/hearing as well. Other than that one time as a child, I never heard this rule of thumb ever communicated outside or HUS/Manosphere.
So, with that in mind, is that kind of rule-of-thumb (regardless of it’s accuracy/helpfulness) “beyond the pale”?
Let me put it another way, I don’t find this rule of thumb to be any less useful than, say, “never date anyone at your workplace”, which I have heard many times over the years. Personally, I can see why someone might communicate that adage, but, I don’t find it to be all that helpful (sure, sometimes it applies, but, so often, it does not).
My guess is that the rule of “1/2 Age + 7″ is simply politically incorrect (i.e. recognizes basic biological differences, values youthful fertility, values youthful sexual attractiveness, seems to give men an advantage, etc.) and therefore is, now, considered “beyond the pale”.
deti, men are making “ugly and fat” comments about women all the time online. I don’t hear it much from women, online or offline, though perhaps you would consider women talking up how hot certain celebrities are to be just as bad.
Personal opinions about looks are just that. I’ve been called ugly enough times. There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features. Do I go after each of them with a pitchfork?
It will always be easier for him to find a wife next year than this year, so why rush?….Because the highest value women get snapped up.
I think this is very true once we remove ourselves from the sphere of the ultra-rich. A guy like Ron Perelman, whom I would regard as average looking for his age, will always have options that a less wealthy man will not. I also find that, once money is off the table, it’s the women who have fewer options or who have been abandoned by their own fathers who go for the older guys.
@Deti
Deti, I don’t think Hope made your point for you at all. You are only getting the smallest taste of what women are getting, re: criticism regarding physical appearance.
Remember when the former commenter Obs said that all women can do is “Be hot and lower your standards”? Remember how Ramble wants movies/tv to feature a girl being dumped by her BF for being 10 lbs overweight?
I think the 1-10 scale is just about as dehumanizing as you can get: Women are being reduced to a number, not even an adjective. And being told that is your sole value in the eyes of men.
It’s awful when people do it to men OR women. I think it’s just as hurtful to guys. I am on the side of good character making a person become truly beautiful but it’s a minority view among both women AND men!
Bully, in many cases I disagree.
Right out of college I was working in NYC and commuting about 70 minutes each way each workday. After walking to the station, waiting for the train, standing for 30 minutes on that train, then walking to the garage and driving home in traffic I was fucking exhausted. Granted, my profession involves a lot of technical problem solving so that also adds to the (mental) exhaustion.
By the time I got home I had little energy to go workout. Now, that does not mean that I could not go workout, but it would have been one more thing that I did not NEED to do that I was adding to my list of “chores”.
Also, if I did go workout, assuming that this was, say, a 45 minute workout, by the tie I got back and showered, it would basically be bedtime.
Now, since moving from the NYC area I get to the gym 4-5 times a week (sometimes 6 if I am adding in cardio).
J and others addressing this point:
Personally, find a gap of more than ten years problematic. It may be OK during one’s middle years, but as we age those ten years can seem like a lot more ….. I do doubt though that, were I a healthy and fit 70 year old, that I’d want to take on the health problems of an 80 year old guy. In fact, I know widows in that position who refuse the attentions of frailer men. They’ve already lost one man and don’t want to nursemaid another.
Me: Thes observations reminds me of something.
A fair number of the old timers are in the 60+ crowd, some more vigorous than others. A fair number are married. Of all the old timers, there is one that still seems to be interested in chasing women at 71 (he tried to pick me up some time ago, rather hilarious–the man’s children must be my age, a bit older or even a bit younger. He is just a few years younger than my dad). I’ve mentioned him in the past.
So think about it; the women in their 60s as a whole don’t look all that great, forget the ones in their 70s. Among the 50 year olds are some attractive looking marreid MILF types; yes, you can see they are older, but they keep themselves in shape. So he has to go down in age to the 35 and up crowd. Some single women, some divorcees?
Now imagine a woman at the higher range of that age, say 40-50, the only women I read about who go that age are those who marry men with lots of money, and the cynical view is that if he will become frail within a relatively short period of time, they are ready to scoop up the dollars. Think–the late Anna Nicole Smith (born 1967) and J. Howard Marshall (born 1905), Rupert Murdoch (born 1931) and Wendy Deng (born 1968).
So if he is really looking, I wonder at how successful he will be. I hope he has what it takes to get the type of woman he wants.
@ Susan:
Ideal age difference for women: male 3.4 years older
Ideal age at marriage for women: 25.4 years
Therefore…ideal age of husband at marriage: 28.8 years
For a 30 year old man, 22 is the lower limit.
No matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age.
Me: This ties in with some of what I felt when I was that age, and it reminds me of something we spoke of earlier, of being teenagers and having grown men hit on us. When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s. It felt wierd and scary, as though a man who was so much older was deliberately targeting me because he might have felt I was young and naive (vulnerable, but not in a good way) and not mature enough to negotiate a relationship with a man so much older and experienced. It was only until I was in my mid 20s that I felt mature enough to date more mature men in their late 20s and 30s. Mr. PVW is several years older than me.
@JP
On the other hand, self hugging one’s values is common to all universally reinforcing stimuli. Human beings are naturally motivated to assert their values; to think their values are best; and to be intolerant of people with opposite values.
Interesting link. Is self-hugging a form of solipsism?
Hope: “would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?”
I’ve noticed a great amount of disgust toward women over the age of 30. Actually, the “sell by date” for women on a number of male-centric blogs is 25.
There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features.
Hope, it seems to me that, usually, the pro/con ratio of Asian women and the features is usually pretty positive, sometimes to the point of fetishization.
Granted, this is mostly with white men, but if hip hop videos are to be used as a metric, it would seem that black men are also quite open to the idea of Asian women as being beautiful.
Still, I definitely feel for you and the mean things that were said to you.
@Susan
“I do think his “sum attractiveness” is bogus, though.”
Damn. Thats the only thing on this whole post that keeps me out of the cave with Cooper, though for totally different reasons.
Seems like the age gap is built in from the get-go. In HS there are plenty of 9 and 10 grade women with BF’s or suitors from the 11/12 grades. In years that may not be much, but in terms of relative status, social circles, etc. yr 9 to yr 12 is substantial. Same thing is repeated in college. So at what point do women suddenly become turned off to this notion of an age gap? IMO, three year gap in HS seemed kind of gross, while a 5, even up to 10 year gap between 25 and 35, not so much.
Perhaps it has more to do with people becoming too entrenched in their age-specific social circles and thus lacking the opportunities to mix it up with an older set than an actual resistance to older suitors. But I’m still curious about this resistance: is it a form of jealousy-shaming from their peers; a way of assuring no one escapes the herd, gets to jump ahead in the status game? Box seats vs bleacher seats.
Maybe the “math” going forward for women could be: take the # of proms you attended (or were invited to) from HS yrs 9-12 and multiply by 5. Chances are, if you were a freshwoman dating a junior or senior, you are probably more into the ‘touch of grey’ than you think. If you never got asked to prom, then you can probably relate well to a whole lot of men who had to wait (or are still waiting) to see their SMV rise into view – and that’s a good thing.
@Cooper
While I’d never want to go back and start over at 18, I’d entertain the chance to start again at 23-ish. A red pill dose that young would open up all kinds of opportunities. Keep in mind that the apex of all these charts is not something to wait for; that would be relying way too much on timing, a default approach that I think younger women are finding to be unreliable at best. We are either on the way up or the way down in terms of our SMV-MMV; these so-called “sweet spots” are elusive and fleeting, they are unreliable anchor points. As for those curves, you are on one side, I am on the other. The left side is about taking risk to expand options/possibilities, the right side is about mitigating risk to preserve options/possibilities. Wanna trade?
@Jackie@SayWhat
“but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.”
I won’t speak for Lokland, but I didn’t get my growth spurt until quite late. I know 5’7″ and it is short, plain and simple.
I’m 5’9.75″ and I’m still in the short camp far more often than in the “average” camp. You two are sweet and height may not matter to much to you (the beloved 1%), but even setting aside the biological mechanisms behind height and how that plays into physical dominance and all that fun stuff, in a static setting like online dating, its a trapdoor. IME, in the internet dating venue women almost always have a hard-stop, the lower end they will entertain (though this tends to be less common with age). In fact, becoming invisible is easy: make height <5'9" and income less than $40k. *poof*
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/
Ramble, I used to care more about that sort of thing, but I’m too old for that now (@jrd, yes, in manosphere terms I’m “past my prime”).
I do, of course, try to keep up my looks. I’m not going to discount how important they are to men, and my husband is a man.
Jackie, men don’t often want to be criticized for their looks, just as women don’t often want to be criticized for their looks. There seems to be a pattern here… ;D
Again, Jackie, to be clear, I am not looking or hoping to see girls be mistreated or hurt in pop culture or in real life. I am not interested in hurting or attacking a demographic, sex or group.
I am interested in what is the modern narrative and what is acceptable (for instance, my interest in what advice might be “beyond the pale”) to say relative to that narrative.
For instance, I am genuinely sympathetic to Hope and almost any person that would have hurtful things said to them.
And, well, I would say more about this, but I know that Susan is tired of this particaulr hobby horse, so, I will leave it at that.
However, I did ask you a question a few threads back that you never answered, so, I will ask it again:
When did I ever say that?
Again, my interest in what Hollywood chooses to show, and what narratives they chooses to enforce is very different than what I would want to see in real life (i.e. I like that we have movies that depict the horrors of drug use and criminal activity, but I do not want those things to actually happen in real life).
@Deti
“She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive.”
====
Deti, can you not see that the disgust for RP is borne out of his awful treatment of others? I have seen Susan advocate for all kinds of guys, many of whom are nowhere near “conventional” hotness.
Examples include the actor Peter Dinklage, who plays the dwarf Tyrion on GoT. What about that skinny emo Nathan Hardin– his arms were like pencils? Some guys didn’t seem to like it but tons of girls thought he was hot, regardless.
Besides that, Susan has mentioned how a good sense of humor and a quick wit give less-than-conventional-attractive men a huge bonus.
*It’s Perelman’s narcissistic selfishness that makes him repugnant.*
I bet if there was a guy who looked like a carbon copy of him, who was just a regular guy of awesome character who truly loved his family and adored his wife, we’d all be swooning. Susan included, I bet!
If you were interested in being a bar skank, than you might be past your prime, but if you are interested in being a great mother, you are probably riding the wave right now.
Few guys have any interest in being pretty. Ruggedly handsome? Sure.
Just think of how different these two scenarios are:
One man to another: Hey, pretty boy!
One girl to another: Hey, pretty girl!
The one ends in a fight and the other ends in a hug.
Our desires and your desires are, in general, significantly different and often complimentary.
For the fourth time, the point is this: There’s a lot of anger and bitterness and hostility in the manosphere. The hostess of this blog hates it. She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive. She gives tacit support to that thought process. I think it’s unwise, short sighted and offensive; and will just give her detractors more fodder for unfair criticism.
Deti, I think what Susan is guilty of here is making a snarky remark about the looks of someone whose behavior she found ugly. People do that sort of thing all the time. I would considser the ‘sphere’s attacks on the looks of the EPL author and her new husband, who are also pretty average looking, in the same view.
Susan is generally very positive about the appearances of average-looking men. I have seen her compliment the avatar pix of many men who were, frankly, average. You are over-reacting and possibly imputing the motives of other women in your life to Susan. I’ve seen nothing in the general philosophy of this blog that suggests to me that Susan supports “looks-ism.”
“deti, men are making “ugly and fat” comments about women all the time online.”
And those men are routinely excoriated and eviscerated for it, sometimes right here on this blog.
“Personal opinions about looks are just that. I’ve been called ugly enough times. There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features. Do I go after each of them with a pitchfork?”
Your solipsism is showing.
Again: The point is that comments like Susan’s are a big reason why the manosphere exists. Men KNOW women see them this way, if women see them at all.
Comments like these are also a big part of why there is anger and hostility in the ‘sphere; and why many men don’t see Susan and this blog as allies. Susan hates it, and since she hates it, I respectfully suggest she not say things that foster it and give credence to it. Too many men will look at these comments and say “See?! SEE?! THIS is what women think of us men! This is why teh wimminz is beyotches and can’t be trusted!”
pvw: ” This ties in with some of what I felt when I was that age, and it reminds me of something we spoke of earlier, of being teenagers and having grown men hit on us. When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s.”
It was different for me. When I was 18 and a man in his 30s hit on me, I couldn’t understand why that old man thought I would be interested in him. Because I came of age pre-Internet and blogs were not available to me, I didn’t discover until after I was already married to a man only a year older than me that as an 18-22 I was supposed to be hot for men at least 10 years older than me.
deti “Too many men will look at these comments and say “See?! SEE?! THIS is what women think of us men! This is why teh wimminz is beyotches and can’t be trusted!””
Really? Just from some comments about some aging billionaire?
“Your solipsism is showing.”
Ah, maybe that is because I tend to not over-exaggerate the effects of something, the way certain folks in the manosphere shriek every time a woman says something remotely “bad” about any man.
There are some parts of the Web that exist which have some very unsavory characters. They do not all exist for legitimate reasons. The manosphere might have started out with good gripes, but Susan isn’t the “enemy #1″ here. If they think she is, they’re delusional.
@Ramble
“However, I did ask you a question a few threads back that you never answered, so, I will ask it again:
Oh man, Ramble, if you are going to talk about how much you long for women to get dumped if they gain 5 lbs…
Whoa. I am curious, when did I ever say this?
When did I ever say that?”
====
Hey Ramble,
I’m sorry I missed your question. My apologies!
I was being intentionally hyperbolic– you’ve never said the 5lbs part to my knowledge. Didn’t you say 10lbs, though? Or maybe 15? For a tv show/movie to show a girl being dumped specifically due to weight gain, was your hope right?
Maybe I am mistaken. Could you clarify and let me know? Thank’ee
Jackie, J:
She wasn’t talking about Perelman being an asshole, or even about his being undesirable as a man because of an unattractive personality or distasteful behavior. She was talking about him being fat and ugly, specifically about how his $ balanced out his physical unattractiveness.
In fact, I didn’t use the words fat and ugly. SHE did.
You are all missing the point that I have made five times already. Comments like hers implicitly tell the manosphere “yes, you’re right. Wimminz really ARE beyotches. We’re shallow and focused on your looks and your money; and if you’re fat and ugly, you better have big bucks or you’re NEVER going to get laid”.
J, I agree. Susan has personally made compliments to a lot of male commenters here. Nobody calls out those comments and say, “See! Susan is friendly to men!” They only jump on her when she makes any perceived misstep.
deti, honestly, what does it matter to HUS what the manosphere thinks?
You might be overreacting just a tad.
” But if a man expresses that same sentiment in public and in writing about unattractive and overweight women, he’s a sexist pig jerk. There’s a double standard here. ”
This happens as well. For instance, I’ve seen a lot of snarky comments from men about Hillary Clinton’s looks, and she’s not even unattractive. Fat women get s lot of grief. Even one person commented on this blog that women go from “made to mom to crone.” Crone, really? Is that how you refer to elderly women and grandmothers?
@Ramble re: training: I suppose, but given I was in a full-time job with an extremely long commute (hour+ by car one way), and also in a mentally demanding career, with 10-11 hours of work + job, and 8 hours of sleep (extremely generous) that still leaves a solid five hours. If you were working a lot of OT, I guess that would be different, but still. Five hours is a lot of time.
Even if I was ass tired, I still did it for two reasons – a.) because if I was tired when I was young in my 20s, it wasn’t going to get any better with age unless I physically developed myself to counter the stress and b.) I have no intention of suffering the slow decline of a disease of affluence like so many in my family have.
I’m really, really not trying to sound preachy, don’t get me wrong but in the context of relationships being fit is so incredibly important for both men and women, such that it’s worth sacrificing much for – if the primal urges are lacking, there’s nothing for it to stand on.
@deti
Deti, have you ever heard the quote “Be the change you wish to see in the world”?
I ask because I often wonder why you are here. Specifically, what you are seeking and what you hope to gain. This is a blog for young women, ostensibly you are here for your daughter.
Yet, several times when I have asked you what actions you will take as a result of convos here, you have never replied, as far as I can see.
It’s a shame, because I believe you have a lot of knowledge and wisdom to contribute, especially as an older person (I miss Munson SO much
). Yet, so many of your posts are crabbing about how bad things are. The only thing missing is yelling “GET OFF MAH LAWN!”
And that’s too bad, because instead of making things better, it’s wallowing in the status quo.
In other words: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
Ramble, my husband likes it when I compliment his looks. I don’t call him pretty, but I do call him hot, sexy, good-looking and handsome.
Your scenarios were all same-sex. Imagine the opposite sex scenario, with “Hey pretty boy” replaced by “Hey good-looking.”
My guess is that the rule of “1/2 Age + 7″ is simply politically incorrect (i.e. recognizes basic biological differences, values youthful fertility, values youthful sexual attractiveness, seems to give men an advantage, etc.) and therefore is, now, considered “beyond the pale”.
I question the usefulness of this maxim as well. If a 24 yo man pairs up with a 19 yo woman, it’s all good to me, but an 80 yo man with a 47 yo woman? It’s a nice fantasy, but, as a woman who in her 50s, I can tell you that any affection I feel towards men in their 80s comes out of missing my dad. The older the man is, the less the maxim holds IMO.
On some level, even many men recognize this. There’s a lot of knowing smiles/laughter among men my age when they see a young woman with an old man. They assume that he is being used and hope that the sex is worth it.
@deti
“You are all missing the point that I have made five times already. Comments like hers implicitly tell the manosphere “yes, you’re right. Wimminz really ARE beyotches.”
Dude, he’s short, fat, old and ugly.
His wife is hot.
The only thing to be pissed about is that Susan is not a gold digger and his wife is.
Like fuck, seriously, being ugly doesn’t give you a legitimate reason to be pissed at others for not liking you.
Fact of life.
If they want to resent the fact that they suck thats their personal choice and their perfectly entitled to do so. Its no one else’s responsibility to be attracted to them.
Hope:
Go back and read my comment at 92. It affects women readers as much as, if not more so than, men.
@jrd:
Me: When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s.”
JRD: It was different for me. When I was 18 and a man in his 30s hit on me, I couldn’t understand why that old man thought I would be interested in him.
Me: We feel the same way; because I didn’t feel mature enough, it seemed wierd that a man that old had an interest in me and that I should be interested in him for that reason. Someone old enough to be a much older cousin/young uncle/father, when I didn’t have some kind of daddy complex….
@Maggie
“made to mom to crone.” Crone, really? Is that how you refer to elderly women and grandmothers?”
That was a discussion between women.
Hate the vagina on that one.
I’m sorry I missed your question. My apologies!
No need to apologize, I have left many an internet question left unanswered.
Yes, I most likely did say something like that. However, and this is important, I am not looking to give girls eating disorders by having females on popular shows be dumped for gaining 17 ounces. What I am interested in is, if we are going to see people get dumped for all sorts of reasons (he is controlling, she is a drama queen, etc.) then weight should be one as well.
I am also a fan of seeing shorter guys, in pop culture, having a more difficult time with taller girls because that is something we see in real life. However, I do not revel in my shorter (male) friends having a harder row to hoe.
Hollywood (i.e. pop culture) is, as far as I can tell, absolutely terrified of communicating to girls that their weight plays a big role in their SMV. And, I understand that people like Susan say, “well, duh, every girl already knows that”, but, personally, I am seeing something much more schizophrenic. And I think that our pop culture and MSM overlords are, not only not helping, but actively hurting the situation.
“She referred to — and recoiled from — Perelman’s physical attributes, not his character defects. ”
Why should people apologize or soft-shoe around what they do or don’t find attractive? So long as they “own it” – accept responsibility that their standards may leave them high and dry – how is that a problem? I say this as a short, ugly, middle-aged, miserly and socially awkward individual who no woman of even average attractiveness has ever thought of as anything other than absolutely cringe-worthy, not some Adonis wannabe who doesn’t understand how the other half lives on the other side of the SMV tracks.
What some people in the (wo)manospheres need to realize is that life isn’t fair, that they are owed nothing, and that some people – when their high and unchanging standards are combined with their low SMV – are destined to be alone forever. For that small-but-vocal minority to realize that and accept that, instead of churlishly howling on blogs, they need to get on with their lives, THAT is a challenge that the (wo)manospheres should embraced as a goal.
Bottom line: stop being a perpetual resentment machines and accept your low SMV if that’s the hand you’ve been dealt.
@Deti
Deti, we should wait for Susan to respond to you directly. I will only offer a counterexample, until then:
If I remember correctly, Susan had some less than flattering things to say about Lena Dunham’s appearance in “Tiny Furniture” before LD’s show “Girls” had started. (LD was heavier, and prone to outbursts of nudity.)
And look, once we got to see how talented LD was with her work on Girls, I don’t think a single woman has made an unkind remark about her (LD) looks. I don’t think the same has been true of the men regarding her appearance!
deti, the manosphere is so toxic that my husband asked me specifically to stop reading it in the first year that we were together.
Keep bringing up the manosphere as if it’s so important, but it’s really not doing you any favors here. You might be gaining points with them, but losing points with the saner population of the world.
When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s. It felt wierd and scary, as though a man who was so much older was deliberately targeting me because he might have felt I was young and naive (vulnerable, but not in a good way) and not mature enough to negotiate a relationship with a man so much older and experienced.
I hear that. In college, I was engaged to a man 9 nine years my senior. In retrospect, I do feel that I was targeted for my naiviete. The man went out to two marriages and a couple of kids out of wedlock.
STEM guy, BTW. Biological sciences.
@Ramble
“I am also a fan of seeing shorter guys, in pop culture, having a more difficult time with taller girls because that is something we see in real life”
I’d settle for them even being shown on television in the first place and not be disabled, criminal, evil, abusive etc.
Less of a problem with Canadian (my favourite actor is 5′ 7.5″) and international stuff.
American TV makes it seem like all guys are + 5′ 10″.
I’ve got to agree. The Big Easy has one of the sexiest film scenes I’ve ever watched. Sea of Love was great too. I just think it must have been hard to go from Gabriel Byrne to Perelman.
@LJ
Exactly.
Re charts from Match, unfortunately they don’t have the same kind of nifty blog that OKCupid does, so I don’t have access to that.
Hope:
I’m not here to gain points with the manosphere. I’m pointing out a sentiment. I’m also pointing out that a sizable number of the men in the 80%, the betas, deltas and gammas, and the BETAs Susan says she wants women to meet, date and marry, are going to resemble Perelman physically (short, fat and physically unattractive) even if they don’t resemble his personality.
I am down with this, and I’m down with Susan’s goal. But calling such men fat and ugly, and how his wives wouldn’t put out for him and that’s why he keeps getting divorced, probably isn’t going to help attract many women to men like this.
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