Why You Should Date an Older Guy

November 26, 2012

 

Women in college perceive a dearth of relationship-minded men, so those who want to fall in love and have a serious relationship often look to graduation as the time when things will improve as traditional dating reappears. They hope they can leave hookup culture behind with the extra-long twin sheets and grungy shower flip-flops. 

As women go out into the working world, they do find a more diverse set of approaches to meeting and dating men, with better odds:

1. The sex ratio evens out in many environments. 

2. Their same-age male peers are potentially more interested in relationships, now that they’re the younguns again (which means fewer options).

3. Online dating offers a traditional dating model, though its success among women in their early 20s is mixed, as many are reluctant to go with the “blind date” approach so quickly. 

4. They now have access to men of a wider range of ages. 

This last item represents a significant opportunity for women in their early 20s, who are near their own reproductive peak. It can be more challenging to meet older guys, who are unlikely to hang out in the same venues frequented by the post-college crowd. The best way to do this, in addition to online dating, is through work, social circles and activities. 

How Much Older?

What is the peak of male attractiveness? Personally, I’ve always been of the opinion that 28 is the sweet spot for males physically, but that’s entirely subjective, so I decided to do some research.

I. David Buss’ study of sex differences in human mate preferences found that preferences around age were quite consistent for women:

Ideal age difference for women: male 3.4 years older

Ideal age at marriage for women: 25.4 years

Therefore…ideal age of husband at marriage: 28.8 years

II. OK Cupid data on desirability by age
 
As you can see, male desirability peaks at 26 and stays strong until about 30, at which point it decreases rapidly. But not as rapidly as a woman’s! She ends her prime years at 31, while the male stays in his prime through 36.
 
III. The Rule of Half Your Age +7
 
The question of age difference for mating can be a controversial one. As one male writer put it, “We don’t want high schoolers going after middle schoolers or dads going after their daughters’ friends.” Norms vary by culture, but the French came up with the rule that a man should divide his age in half and add seven to get the youngest appropriate age he might date. For example, Alain is 34. Half of that is 17, plus 7 = 24. We might expect some eyebrows to be raised if Alain tries to date 19 year old Yvette. For a 30 year old, 22 is the lower limit. (It’s not known when the rule came into being, but it is referenced in the 1953 movie The Moon is Blue.)
 
However, men have a strong preference for younger women, as illustrated in this OK Cupid graph of male messaging by female age:
 

As you can see, men tend to focus on the youngest women in their already skewed preference pool, and, what’s more, they spend a significant amount of energy pursuing women even younger than their stated minimumNo matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age.

(Rule? What rule? :) )

 

IV. The Socionist blog has an interesting analysis of male attractiveness over the life span. 

I’ve divided qualities determining male attractiveness into 3 groups:
  1. Physical qualities: sexual maturity and potency, physical maturity, health and fitness level, probability of surviving through critical years of childraising
  2. Psychological qualities: self-confidence, charm, mental sharpness
  3. Ability to support a family materially: income, financial independence, social status and standing, capacity for work, ability to focus on productive activity
“Attractiveness” shall be defined as the sum of these three qualities.
 
Here’s how it stacks up:
 
Note that the peak of physical attractiveness is from 25-30. That’s when he’s hottest. However, his confidence and charm are ascending at this time, and are just below his peak physical attractiveness. In addition, his income is climbing rapidly, which increases his MMV, or marital market value.

 

Locking him down at his physical peak is the optimal female strategy, as this takes him off the market before his full MMV has been realized, and also while he is closest to the female ideal of 3.4 years older. 

 

The Downsides to Dating an Older Guy

 
There are some tradeoffs in dating a guy quite a bit older than yourself:
 
I. In Hitting Your Peak, AskMen describes men’s physical changes after 30:
 

According to a recent survey of adult sexual behavior, men over the age of 40 were two to three times more likely to report a lack of sexual interest compared to men under the age of 30. In many cases, that precipitous drop-off has to do with a natural decrease in testosterone, the male sex hormone that allows you to sustain an erection, ejaculate and have an orgasm. 

Studies show that most men experience a 2% drop-off in testosterone production each year after they turn 30. In addition to causing a lower libido, that decrease can also result in changes in mood and emotions, a decrease in strength due to loss of muscle tissue, and an increase in body fat. In other words, your loss of libido is perfectly timed to coincide with your brand new lard-ass physique and moody attitude. If that isn’t incentive to get married before you turn 40, we don’t know what is. 

 
 II. Compared with younger dads, older fathers pass on significantly more random genetic mutations to their children.

A study published in Nature finds that the age at which a father sires children determines how many mutations those offspring inherit. By starting families in their thirties, forties and beyond, men could be increasing the chances that their children will develop autism, schizophrenia and other diseases often linked to new mutations. “The older we are as fathers, the more likely we will pass on our mutations,” says lead author Kári Stefánsson, chief executive of deCODE Genetics in Reykjavik. “The more mutations we pass on, the more likely that one of them is going to be deleterious.”

…Fathers passed on nearly four times as many new mutations as mothers: on average, 55 versus 14. The father’s age also accounted for nearly all of the variation in the number of new mutations in a child’s genome, with the number of new mutations being passed on rising exponentially with paternal age. A 36-year-old will pass on twice as many mutations to his child as a man of 20, and a 70-year-old eight times as many, Stefánsson’s team estimates.

III. Finally, while you may find a bit of gray in the sideburns sexy, keep in mind that a man’s age will affect his parenting style. 

There’s something to be said for dealing with infants in one’s youth rather than middle age. Playing catch, roughhousing on the floor, and even pulling the inevitable all nighters get more difficult over time. 

All in all, I recommend that women in their early to mid 20s focus their efforts on men in the 25-35 range. Young women are somewhat resistant to this idea, I have found.  They tend to wonder why such a “great catch” is still on the market. Is he avoiding commitment? Is he a reformed player who’s trying to hop off the carousel and find a good girl to marry?

Listening recently to a woman describe relationship woes with a man ten years older than she is, I noticed her friends were quick to say, “That’s why he’s 32 and single.” That seems awfully harsh to me – 30 is the median marriage age for college educated women. Men are becoming increasingly resentful of this kind of scrutiny that questions their character simply because they are unmarried in their 30s.

Joshua Pompey fights back in 3 Misconceptions About Men Who Date a Lot of Women

Sometimes women are way off-base with how they perceive men. This is especially true when it comes to the perception of men in society who are constantly dating different women.

There is a terrible stigma tied to these men. If a man dates many women and is single past a certain age, women often make the assumption that he must be flawed in some way, a womanizer or a man that refuse to grow up. Women will then label these men as guys who are not serious candidates for long-term relationships.

Pompey makes the following key points:

1. Most men are looking for a life partner.

The reality is that many men date multiple women for the same reasons women date a lot of men. They are looking for “the one.” A lot of these perceived players are simply playing the numbers game, hoping to find that special someone as quickly as possible so that they don’t have to endlessly date anymore.

While women sometimes assume these men are playboys who are having the time of their lives, in reality, most of these men are exhausted and would love nothing more than to settle down with the right girl. They just have not found the right woman yet and will keep trying until they do.

That’s in keeping with what Amber Madison found in her 10 city survey of single men:

On Openness to Relationships

  • 99% of men would welcome a relationship with the right girl
  • 73% said their primary interest in women is “someone to have a relationship with”
  • 95% intend to marry

2. Quality men are in no rush – they understand that their MMV is increasing.

Quality men know that they deserve the best life has to offer. They aren’t going to just settle down with any pretty face because they know they deserve the best that life has to offer, not just whatever life has to offer.

These men know that there is a difference between an amazing girl and an amazing girl who is right for them.

They may stay single for years, knowing that at some point they will find what they are looking for. It is not a fear of commitment that keeps these men from settling down; it is a high sense of self-worth and the determination not to settle.

 3. Quality men date as a means of shopping, and they are quick to exit once they’ve determined it’s not a match.

When high-quality men give the relationship a fair shot and it still doesn’t feel right, they don’t stay with women just for the sake of being with someone. They will try to do the right thing for both parties by ending the “mini relationship” sooner, rather than later.

The real motivation for cutting things off is that these men don’t want to waste time with the wrong person before it evolves into something more serious. They would rather go back to pursuing “the one,” despite the fact that their lives will likely be worse off in the short run.

In another sign that men feel the pressure, The Frisky asked six bachelors in their 30s about their state of mind after one guy friend worried that he was becoming a “toxic bachelor:”

I want to settle down. I want to start a family. Plus, I’m getting to that age where if I don’t do it soon, I’m in danger of becoming a ‘toxic bachelor.’A toxic bachelor is when it’s no longer cute to be single, and seems sad and desperate instead. 

Four of the six could strongly relate, while two were not affected:

The Editor, 36

It’s not an internal thing for me. I don’t think I’m toxic. But I have sensed from people around me that they’re starting to think that of me. That I’m broken. Forever. It’s kind of enraging, actually.

…I have maybe one friend who envies my singlehood. And I have lots of friends who envy the fact that my time is all my own—but that’s because they have kids. It doesn’t have to do with being married. But I think most people would be terrified to be in my position. Which is why they assume there’s something wrong with me.

The Producer, 34

Nope, I think timelines and cut-off dates are mainly a female pathology driven by biology/society cocktail. 

The Comic Book Writer, 35

I definitely do worry about that. Age is a factor. In occasional paranoid brainstorms, I sometimes wonder if being divorced is preferential to being single at a certain point. Because at least you tried and someone tried with you.

…For men, 40 seems an obvious tipping point and it’s earlier than that if someone isn’t involved with anyone.

The Music Critic, 32

 HUGE. For me, it isn’t such a feeling of being “toxic” as being “creepy.”

 I think men also feel an anxiety when their friends are partnering off and having children. My friends constantly tell me “you’re so lucky!” and “you’re free!” But they don’t understand that it becomes more difficult to connect with people as the years trundle on. And this perceived “toxicity” is part of it, I think. But men absolutely feel a sense of shame or anxiety when their peers are all booed up and they’re not.

The Community Organizer, 37

 What if I am one of those sad sack bachelors hitting on too young women at the bar? I’m already often the oldest guy in the room at social events. But I haven’t had a hard time dating and finding someone who is interested.

The Texan, 37

That sounds like a term invented by a woman projecting. I don’t care what people think about me. I just don’t. I never have and I never will.

…It’s a stupid concept. As stupid as anyone who would judge a woman for being single at 40 or 30 or 22.

…Many men, I think, wake up one day and realize they didn’t really choose to be a bachelor, and that it might be too late to have a family.

To Summarize:

Dating a man 5-10 years older carries significant benefits and minimal downsides. While  you may not want to focus exclusively on older guys, I recommend that this be one strategy in your portfolio. There really is something very sexy about a bit of gray in the sideburns. 

You’ll need to be extra vigilant to filter out cads who have no intentions of committing to anyone, but you’ll also find this to be a group of men who are more financially secure, socially adept, well-rounded intellectually and emotionally stable. They’re likely to be highly motivated to settle down compared to their bro competitors. 

It goes without saying that you’ll need to be a quality woman worthy of commitment. Your youth and beauty may get you the date, but they won’t suffice for the real deal. 

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  • Sassy6519

    In my opinion, 27-35 really is the sweet spot for men. Mmmmmmmmmm!

  • Escoffier

    Every time I see a cartoon by that person, whoever it is, I think “Bitchy girl who deserves to be alone.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Every time I see a cartoon by that person, whoever it is, I think “Bitchy girl who deserves to be alone.”

      xkcd is written by one Randall Munroe.

  • Vicomte

    Is anyone else still wondering what the reason “Why?” is?

  • Ramble

    As you can see, men tend to focus on the youngest most fertile women

    Fixed that for you.

    It should not be surprising that men, in general, cast a wider net and focus on the more fertile. However, this seems odd when we are raised in a PC culture.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      As you can see, men tend to focus on the youngest most fertile women

      Interesting, while I was researching this post I came across a raging debate among evo psychologists. Some believe that men are most attracted to women who seem maximally reproductive – over a period of time, beginning in their teens. Others believe men are most attracted to women who are fertile now.

      However, we need not quibble. Youth = fertility.

  • Escoffier

    Marry a man 10 years older and you could be in for a 20+ year widowhood.

  • Ramble

    Susan, I have mentioned this before, which means that you may have already answered it, but, I can only remember hearing that 1/2 * Man’s Age + 7 rule once when I was a child, and I remember it was from someone who was laughing about it (oh, isn’t that awful…that kind of thing).

    However, since coming here, I have heard it used quite a few times. The only time I can ever remember this being used in popular culture was a vague reference to it by Alec Baldwin, as Jack Donaghy, saying that he is turning 50, which is like turning 32 for you (he said to Tina Fey as Liz Lemon). They never actually mentioned the rule so it was a little nugget for those in the know.

    So, I guess my question is, outside of HUS, is anyone actually incorporating this rule of thumb into their advice?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      So, I guess my question is, outside of HUS, is anyone actually incorporating this rule of thumb into their advice?

      I actually hadn’t thought of the rule, I was researching age differences and it was everywhere! I was surprised to see it so frequently referenced, as I had not heard of it before HUS either.

  • Jonny

    “Men are becoming increasingly resentful of this kind of scrutiny that questions their character simply because they are unmarried in their 30s.”

    I never encountered this and I didn’t seriously date until I was in my 40s after my divorce. However, I do agree the scrutiny on men is ridiculous since it is women that are delaying marriage and thus, many men remained unmarried.

    Looking at the Male Attractiveness graph, is there a cutoff? It seems like above 225 is ideal. This means ages 25 to 55 is best for women to date. As he ages above 25, he is on the incline, but after 55, he is on the decline.

    “A lot of these perceived players are simply playing the numbers game, hoping to find that special someone as quickly as possible so that they don’t have to endlessly date anymore.”

    It is true that the longer a man dates, it is less likely that he will be satisfied with the one he will marry. It is wrong for the woman to not pursue marriage with an older man merely for age differences. In fact, she may need to take the initiative in order to achieve the marriage. Otherwise, she gave him the excuse to break up with her with her reticence.

    It is more risk for the older woman beyond 30 to show any waffling.

  • Escoffier

    Aristotle (Politics VII 16) says men should marry at 37, women at 18.

  • Escoffier

    I definitely encountered this sentiment. My first boss in my first “real” job was about 10 years older than me. I was just married when I started and he was (and remains) a bachelor. We socialized with him a few times and my wife liked him but she said very early “If he’s unmarried at that age, there’s something wrong with him.”

    In hindsight, I think she was right, not that there is anything truly “wrong” with him but that he had certain traits that made him unattractive for marriage.

  • Passer_By

    Susan, you really need to an article on the benefits to early-twenties women from having a no-strings hot affair with a dapper guy in his late 40s.

  • Revo Luzione

    Well-done, Susan.

    As a 37 year old bachelor, I have no trouble getting dates with younger women, and am becoming very choosy about who I date. A smoking hot 29 year old single mom has been trying to lock me down for the better part of a year. But.. options.. include a 24 year old model and brilliant psychology grad student, and many mid-30’s women… I think I’ll hold off until I find “the one” since my SMV is high and will peak with an upcoming income boost.

    Oh, and re: the downsides of dating older men–such as decreased libido and longevity–men who are into physical fitness will mitigate or obliterate both of these boundaries. I’m physically much stronger and have a better body than at any previous time, my libido has diminished not a lick, and I have much more ability to sexually connect with and electrify my partner.

  • Kathy

    “Marry a man 10 years older and you could be in for a 20+ year widowhood.”

    Indeed, Escoffier. Not only that, if a woman enjoys regular sex, chances are that when she is over forty her husband may have less of a libido or ED issues.
    I for one am glad my husband is only two years older than me. Our libidos are similarly matched, and he is in VERY good health. ;)

    Maybe I am the odd one. But companionship and sex have always meant more to me than money and status. Always.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    My husband and I are the same age. We met at 25, and we got married at 26. He got his master’s at 27, and didn’t start his first well-paying job until then. But now, over a year later, he is starting to become a real catch, but too late! He’s already mine. :P

  • Cooper

    What does this leave <25yo men?

    Ask out HS grads?

    Even with the best I could possible have to offer, what 25yo girl isn't going to be able to find a 25-35yo man that can top it?

    *crawl to cave*

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      What does this leave <25yo men?

      I confess I worried about you, INTJ and the other young guys while writing this – I didn’t want you to feel discouraged. Remember, I’m only recommending this as one possible strategy. You have the advantage of already knowing women this age – they are in your social circle. What you lack in lifetime achievement you gain in proximity. But you may have to wait a couple of years for your SMV to increase :(

  • Rob

    Revo Luzione is spot on and Kathy is merely speculating. I’m forty-two, about to marry a thirty-year old, and have never been in as good shape or sexually-driven in my entire life as I am now. Not that the research is wrong, but as with most research it generalizes across the spectrum. Outliers on both ends occur.

    Pompey’s writing is succinct: I serial dated only in order to find the right match, not to revolve through conquests (as I successfully did that up into my mid-thirties). My sexual market value at 40 – still good-looking, quite athletic and both emotionally and financially stable – allowed me to ‘next’ women much as 20-something hotties ‘next’ men. I simply got to the point where I knew what I was looking for and screened for it… and she happened to be twelve years younger, level-headed, feminine (not feminist!), family-oriented and ready to be with a man who knows how to lead.

    There is no ‘one.’ That’s a myth. When a man is finally ready to settle down, he’ll take the best woman his SMV can barter for and make it work… the way it’s always been, from Aristotle to today.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    Your SMV graphs bear an uncanny resemblance to another SMV graph:

    I beg to differ, they look nothing alike!. Note the overlap in the OKCupid graph. If SMV is a measure of how sexually attractive a woman finds a man, then men peak at 28. A woman forfeits some male SMV if she goes over that, but it’s still worth the tradeoff until about age 35 or so. After that his physical attractiveness declines.

    Keep in mind, it depends on the woman’s age – but the female preference for a man just 4 years older is real, and few women will go up 10 years without significant financial inducement. :)

  • Joe

    Hum…
    After my first wife and I got divorced I spent a number of hours in a local health spy. I was 40 at the time, and honestly, pretty shell shocked. I didn’t particularly want to get involved just then, and I wasn’t looking, particularly.

    But one evening, as I was going nowhere fast on an exercise cycle, I overheard a young lady, who frequented the spa regularly, talking to the one certified spa Lothario. He was about 40 also, and somehow he got around to asking her how old she was. She answered “17”.

    That got rid of him. Apparently that was her intent, because after he left, I turned to her and just said that I didn’t believe she was actually 17. She wasn’t. She told me she was 24 (and wanted to get rid of him).

    That admission was enough. Granted, I really didn’t look my age back then, and she was very mature for 24. But it really seemed to work despite the age difference, at least, short term. We dated a bit and had a great time for about six weeks before she gave me a brief apology and returned to the other coast.

    Ah, what could have been!

  • Marie

    “Looking at the Male Attractiveness graph, is there a cutoff?”

    Men are at their most attractive 27-40. Some men are very attractive after 40. Very few after 50. Men that are attractive to young women past 40 take care of themselves, age well, are successful, confident and wealthy. They are in a minority. I’m 22 and it does occasionally happen that I meet a man in his 40s I find attractive.
    I am the only one of my friends that are remotely interested in men over 35. If I’m single at 30 (God forbid) I’d expand the age group.

    It puzzles me when people talk about men and aging as if most men turn into George Clooney at 47. A very small minority of men have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they’re almost 50 (of course depending on what they’re definition of what “gorgeous” is).

  • Kathy

    “Kathy is merely speculating”
    Er, no.
    Large age gaps may be fine initially, but as people age things change.
    Being alone is indeed a prospect that should concern a woman who marries a man 10+ years older than herself.

    My own grandmother was a widow at 70. My grandfather died at age 80.
    After he died she went down hill. Was never the same. She developed alzheimers. Talked constantly about my grandfather . It was heartbreaking to watch.Eventually my mother had to put her in a home because she could no longer care for her. She died recently age 92.. Twenty two years without her beloved husband.

    That was something that I never wanted to go through.

    When Olive talks about her Uncle and Aunt’s 25-30 age gap, saying that they are very happy, it always makes me very sad. Sometime in the near future her Aunt will most probably be a grieving widow too. And quite possiblely for many years, too, just like my grandmother.

    Better to marry someone closer in age, because chances are that you will end up spending more time together with the one that you love.

    It’s easy to forget about this kind of thing when you are young and seemingly invincible.

  • VD

    A very small minority of men have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they’re almost 50

    True. But it is rather pertinent that the number of men who have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they are 25 isn’t much larger. The attractive older guys tend to compete well when it comes to the gorgeous ones because they have more money and status.

    That being said, I married a girl two years younger when I was at what Susan considers to be the most attractive male age and I don’t have any reason to regret it.

  • Marie

    VD: I agree that some older men “compete well” but 50-something men can (if they’re lucky) compete for 30-something women. I never see a smouldering girl my age with a 50 year old. Even if he’s a millionaire. I could still get a 40 year old millionaire. Or a 30 year old one. And 50 year olds aren’t more likely to be that rich – most of the great wealth out there comes from inheritance – they’ve had it all along. A 50 year old man is more likely to be in the “well off” league, but well off doesn’t get you Candice Swanepoel. The money and success can compensate for the age to a certain point, but most men look too ‘tired’ after 50. I generally have a thing for older men, but they usually pass my limit around 47.
    I’d say men peak anywhere from 28 to 45, depending on where he starts out, and I consider men who do great with women 45+ exceptions.

  • Rob

    Kathy, your personal anecdotes are just that; personal observations.

    Basing your relationship choices on what “may” happen given a medium to large age gap is still just speculation.

    Two people may be the same age and one gets run over by a bus, shot in a burglary or drop dead from an aneurism. You still end up with a widow or widower. Life is too indeterminate to base your relationship choices on mere biological chronology.

    However, an older man and a younger woman is a much better formula for marital success. An older man is established, less prone to let his affections meander, and MUCH less likely to fall prey to a young woman’s shit tests; his younger counterparts generally do not have the wisdom that comes with experience.

  • Marie

    From a girl’s POV: in my mind, older men do not “compete” with younger men. They are two different categories. He needs to be that full package to be an option.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marie

      From a girl’s POV: in my mind, older men do not “compete” with younger men. They are two different categories. He needs to be that full package to be an option.

      Yes. I’ve read that for every inch of height below a certain threshold, males need to have a certain increased annual salary to compensate. It’s the same with older men. A 50 yo in good shape can not compete with a 28 yo male in his prime based on physical SMV. He must sweeten the deal with some number of $ and status. Even then we’re not talking your average UMC gent who’s divorced his wife. We’re talking huge bucks. To wit, Ron Perelman with Ellen Barkin:

      rp

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    The genetics thing is rather interesting, hmm. My parents were married at 20 and 32, but waited 7 years to have kids. As a result, my dad was nearly 40 when I was born, and guess who has a rare genetic condition, with a 50% chance of passing it on to each kid she has? :-)

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    When Olive talks about her Uncle and Aunt’s 25-30 age gap, saying that they are very happy, it always makes me very sad. Sometime in the near future her Aunt will most probably be a grieving widow too. And quite possiblely for many years, too, just like my grandmother.

    No way, man, she’ll be very happy. She’s a total gold-digger. Keep in mind this is my uncle’s second wife, and she’s just a few years older than his daughter from his first marriage. Blech. This woman is also really bitchy, so pardon if I seem biased against her, it’s because I am. ;-)

    I do feel bad for their kids though. They have two, both very young, and my uncle probably won’t be around much longer. He’s not in the best of health.

  • Mike M.

    As a man approaching 50, I have to point out that a woman rejecting anyone part 40 or so isn’t getting any younger herself.

    I don’t expect to date 20-somethings. Nor early 30s. Over 35? That’s another matter. Though geography is NOT my friend.

  • slim’s tuna provider

    yet another reason for dudes to avoid getting fat in their 20s…

  • Sassy6519

    @ Marie

    Men are at their most attractive 27-40. Some men are very attractive after 40. Very few after 50. Men that are attractive to young women past 40 take care of themselves, age well, are successful, confident and wealthy. They are in a minority. I’m 22 and it does occasionally happen that I meet a man in his 40s I find attractive.
    I am the only one of my friends that are remotely interested in men over 35. If I’m single at 30 (God forbid) I’d expand the age group.

    It puzzles me when people talk about men and aging as if most men turn into George Clooney at 47. A very small minority of men have a shot with gorgeous 25 year olds when they’re almost 50 (of course depending on what they’re definition of what “gorgeous” is).

    Yeah, I agree. I know very few men that I would consider attractive that are 40 and older. Men 35 and younger are where it’s at. I think the oldest man I would possibly consider dating right now would be 37-39, and that’s pushing it. It’s pretty rare, in my opinion, for a man to age into a “silver fox”. As Susan noted, monetary compensation often makes up for other departments that are lacking.

  • Escoffier

    So, worse, a supplicator who thinks writing trite anti-male cartoons in which the bitchy girl always humiliates the idiot male will get him laid.

  • Robber

    Definitely agree with the strong interest in mid 30s men wanting a relationship. My social circle’s remaining men in that demographic, myself included, have mostly expressed a desire for stability and a family.

    A certain Californian has taken this single Dad off the market…:) here’s hoping it keeps that way. Just need to spend more time in SF. We are in SE Asia for a holiday at the moment very much missing her now

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Robber

      A certain Californian has taken this single Dad off the market…:) here’s hoping it keeps that way.

      I’ve been thinking of you, so good to have an update! I assume this is the lawyer? Have you introduced her to your son yet? I am so happy for you. You were ready, and you struck gold very quickly!

  • JP

    This graph thingy is wrong.

    There is no way that the average 75 year old is more appealing than the average 15 year old.

    Less illegal, sure.

    Less appealing, nope.

  • JP

    @Olive:

    “The genetics thing is rather interesting, hmm. My parents were married at 20 and 32, but waited 7 years to have kids. As a result, my dad was nearly 40 when I was born, and guess who has a rare genetic condition, with a 50% chance of passing it on to each kid she has?”

    This is kind of my argument against older parents (meaning 30+ when they start having kids).

    My mother was dead from breast cancer at 50 and my father was disabled from a stroke before 55.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      I’m so sorry to hear that you lost your mom so early! 50 is such a young age. And your dad having a stroke early too – that must have been so very difficult.

  • doomwolf

    @ Escoffier

    xkcd is a lot more than you think. What Susan posts is just a small subset of the humour here http://xkcd.com/ Randall has a more math/tech focus than anything else

    http://xkcd.com/520/
    http://xkcd.com/461/
    http://xkcd.com/356/
    http://xkcd.com/644/
    http://xkcd.com/808/

  • doomwolf

    Oh, and I would say that this is probably sound advice

    http://xkcd.com/400/

  • Passer_By

    @jp
    “There is no way that the average 75 year old is more appealing than the average 15 year old.”

    Tell it to Anne Nicole Smith. :)

    Wait, is she still alive?

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Yes. I’ve read that for every inch of height below a certain threshold, males need to have a certain increased annual salary to compensate. ”

    For a specific SMV or all SMVs of women?

  • Jackie

    @Esco, Susan

    “Every time I see a cartoon by that person, whoever it is, I think “Bitchy girl who deserves to be alone.”

    xkcd is written by one Randall Munroe.”
    ===
    Esco, how uncharitable of you! :( Here is my favorite xkcd — and I use it often!

    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17eucs1i2p53npng/original.png

    He is a great webcom creator and has not had an easy time. His fiancee (now wife) was in Stage III cancer the last time I heard. Hopefully her health is improving.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He is a great webcom creator and has not had an easy time. His fiancee (now wife) was in Stage III cancer the last time I heard. Hopefully her health is improving.

      He seems like a truly wonderful man. I love his humor, though some of it goes over my head. :)

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Re: RP & EB– I believe that marriage (his 4th, I think?) ended in a rather acrimonious and uber-expensive divorce. Last time I heard, he is on marriage #5 and child #7. :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.

  • Jackie

    BTW: I suppose “expensive” is relative to billionaires. But I remember hearing about a colossal diamond collection and 10s of millions of dollars in alimony. It sounds insane to us, but it’s probably less than 5% of his net worth.

  • INTJ

    Damn those OKCupid and Socionist graphs are depressing. Five more years to go for me… :(

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    Dude, those graphs are indicators of trends– not Gospel truth! You could meet someone perfect for you *tomorrow*. You are co-authoring a paper, have musical skillz (I still think you should learn the violin version of Smooth Criminal– it’s not hard!) and are really cute from your pic!

    What you focus on, you will get more of. Don’t let charts your life. :)

  • Jackie

    Oops! Don’t let charts RULE your life. Sorry bout that, INTJ!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Cooper:

    You’re doing a lot right. Honestly? I’m betting you’ll have a girlfriend by next year. It’s really only a matter of time. :)

    @ INTJ:

    That reminds me, I’ve been meaning to ask…how exactly is your goal to get a girlfriend coming along? We rarely hear field reports from you. Met anyone cute lately? ;)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Online dating, for people without social skills.

    “It’s based on online dating, though – where the checklists are ultra-superficial.”

    I did an experiment about a month ago just to see. The results with in the first 24 hours pretty much confirm that short guys aren’t just not wanted but actively hated against.

    Result: (On HotOrNot), of photo I showed you, just me +2 others.

    No height listed, Photos: 8.1, 8.3, 8.5 (as of now)
    12 messages, 3 willing to meet, 2 maybes

    Height Listed, Photo 4.33, 4.5, 5.0 (as of now)
    o messages, o willing to meet, o maybes.

  • Jackie

    @Cooper

    Aw, Coop! :(

    See my post to INTJ.

    Your time will come. I know you don’t believe me, but I would be willing to put down money on it happening within the year. :)

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    Me either! Just from what I have read of him –WITHOUT the pics– he is pretty repulsive.

    I think, though, if you have any kind of hole or lack within you, it can do strange things. I have known people who have grown up in really abject poverty. The kind that has sheared steel into their souls. And they go one of two ways. Either they become obsessed with materialism and moolah, or else they become profoundly generous.

    Also, the cultural narrative of marrying someone rich and living HEA is *very* strong in our culture. You don’t see too many tropes of marrying the middle-class guy and living “frugally ever after” ha ha! ;)

  • SayWhaat

    Online dating, for people without social skills.

    For your cohort, maybe. For others it’s a viable way to meet different people. I know I wouldn’t have ever met my BF in my current circles, and given the incredibly stressful pressure I was under on my previous team, it’s unlikely I would have met anyone else!

    In NYC especially, online dating is a norm. Many of my friends met their SOs through OKC. It was the best way to break out of the limp college scene.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’ve heard mixed things about online dating, but what else do you expect? I also hear mixed things about meeting guys in bars, crushing on bosses, being set up by your grandma and giving your number to the cute barista.

      Your odds of meeting a SO online are probably around 10-20%. It can be time consuming, but if you’re in a dry spell or have nothing on the horizon, it deserves a place in the portfolio of strategies.

  • SayWhaat

    You don’t see too many tropes of marrying the middle-class guy and living “frugally ever after” ha ha!

    Maybe we will, who knows. The recession did a number on the financial long-term thinking of our generation…

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “For your cohort, maybe.”

    Your 23-24, I’m 2-3 years older than you depending on the time of year.
    We are the same age cohort.

    “For others it’s a viable way to meet different people.”

    I’m 5′ 7” the only viable way to meet people is exuding over the top charisma and confidence whilst at the same time not being to arrogant as to get labelled mentally disabled.

    Internet dating and short do not go hand in hand.

  • Ramble

    Some believe that men are most attracted to women who seem maximally reproductive – over a period of time, beginning in their teens. Others believe men are most attracted to women who are fertile now.

    That’s interesting. It would seem that both could be true: the less impulsive and more prepared would employ the former and the more impulsive would employ the latter. However, it seems that the opposite is true today.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    “I’m 5′ 7” the only viable way to meet people is exuding over the top charisma and confidence whilst at the same time not being to arrogant as to get labelled mentally disabled.

    Internet dating and short do not go hand in hand.”
    ===
    Seeing as you’re already married, no problem, right? ;)

    Also: What the hey, dude? You are always going on about being short, but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.” I was thinking you were like 5’0″ or something from your posts!

    And even if you were, c’mon! Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show! (Except around his dad, unfortch :( ) And the actor sounds like he has an awesome life, too.

  • SayWhaat

    Your 23-24, I’m 2-3 years older than you depending on the time of year.
    We are the same age cohort.

    Weird, for some reason I thought you were in your late 30s…

    OK, got it.

    Then the difference must be geographical instead of generational. Like I said, online dating is normal in NYC (where people are stressed to the death over their careers and have run out of numbers in their rolodexes).

    Internet dating and short do not go hand in hand.

    No worries, I get it.

  • Lokland

    @SW

    “Weird, for some reason I thought you were in your late 30s…”

    Funny story, I’ve been getting that since I was 15.

    Someone was recently explaining the ins and outs of drinking and how to ask permission from your elders to me (different culture). She said I would need to say X to you, I kinda did a double take, WTF?. She’s nearing 30…..

  • SayWhaat

    What the hey, dude? You are always going on about being short, but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.” I was thinking you were like 5’0″ or something from your posts!

    I know, right? I’ve dated guys that were 5’6″!

    Speaking of alpha short guys…Peter Dinklage gets posted pretty frequently on r/LadyBoners over at Reddit.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “Seeing as you’re already married, no problem, right?”

    Yup. My experiment was spurred by a discussion that occurred here. Needed to see if it was true, and it was.

    “Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show!”

    My favourite series.
    Definitely bad ass. I like Snow and Tywin Lannista however.

    “You are always going on about being short, but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.” I was thinking you were like 5’0″ or something from your posts!”

    Lets not get into this.
    I won’t be happy and Susan will be annoyed I hijacked her thread.

    I already made my point.

  • Guavaberry

    The problem is, most girls in their early 20’s are not mature enough to date an older guy. I’m currently in college, living with my parents and in my free time I go to football games and study (and watch GoT of course :)). A big chunck of my humour is internet based. It works out with my boyfriend (who’s a year older) but I would look like a fool in a date with a 30yr old. Not to mention, where would I even meet an older guy?

    There are plenty of late 20’s, early 30’s guys I find attractive, but I wouldn’t feel confident in dating somebody who was much older.

  • GudEnuf

    The Socionists pulled that chart out of his ass. The labels on the Y axis and the circles make it look like the chart is based off real data, but it’s just based on his hunch. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC CHART.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The Socionists pulled that chart out of his ass. The labels on the Y axis and the circles make it look like the chart is based off real data, but it’s just based on his hunch. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC CHART.

      Obviously! I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I simply found it informative and sensible. He did a nice job with the graphic. I do think his “sum attractiveness” is bogus, though.

  • HanSolo

    @Game of Thrones fans

    I love fat, cowardly but good-hearted Sam!

    I loved how Sam fell in love with pregnant Gilly, one of the many daughter wives of the old man Craster north of the Wall and gave her that thimble from his mother (or whatever it was). And yes, I’m cheering for him to fatly and deliciously fuck her and be fucked by her even though it would be adultery (adultery that trumps incest can’t be that wrong, can it! lol).

  • HanSolo

    That is, if he survives the advancing white walkers and wights.

  • GudEnuf

    The OK Cupid chart is misleading too. OK Cupid is a young demographic, so the chart primarily shows who is attractive to young people.

    It’s true that as a man gets older, he will have a tougher time dating 20 year olds. But as long as he keeps adjusting the age of his women up to compensate his aging, dating will become easier and easier. And for women, dating becomes harder and harder.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      The OK Cupid chart is misleading too. OK Cupid is a young demographic, so the chart primarily shows who is attractive to young people.

      It’s true that as a man gets older, he will have a tougher time dating 20 year olds. But as long as he keeps adjusting the age of his women up to compensate his aging, dating will become easier and easier. And for women, dating becomes harder and harder.

      All true. I would not say the OK Cupid chart is misleading, though, as it perfectly represents my target audience. This post is specifically written for women in their 20s.

      You are right about men – as long as they revise their expectations to increasing female age commensurate with their own, they should find dating easier. Whether single women in their 30s represent the optimal strategy for males is another question, and one I have not attempted to answer.

  • GudEnuf

    The only reason a man needs to worry about getting older is if he wants children. It will always be easier for him to find a wife next year than this year, so why rush?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It will always be easier for him to find a wife next year than this year, so why rush?

      Because the highest value women get snapped up.

  • jrd

    “Why You Should Date an Older Guy”

    For a minute, I thought I had accidently logged onto the AskMen forum.

  • szopen

    Hm, so, at 36, I am just past a male peak’s value :) Good I have secured the relationships already :)

    But then, I bet not one of you would have guessed my age correctly. WHen I say than I am older than I look, people look at me carefully and say “so you are what, 30?”

  • VD

    I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.

    Spoken like a true daughter of the upper middle class… it reminds me a little of when my father couldn’t figure out why anyone thought calculus was hard. Gee, I don’t know, maybe because NOT EVERYONE GOES TO GRAD SCHOOL AT MIT. But at least you grasp the radical notion that others may not think and feel exactly like you do at all times. If you’re a hot young woman who can’t make rent in a studio apartment and puts a premium on having clothes, shoes, expensive purses, and travel to exotic locales, sleeping with Ron Perelman probably looks like a dream scenario.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      If you’re a hot young woman who can’t make rent in a studio apartment and puts a premium on having clothes, shoes, expensive purses, and travel to exotic locales, sleeping with Ron Perelman probably looks like a dream scenario.

      I don’t think so. Instead of going for a fat, ugly boor she could opt for some IB all-star half his age making a very nice living indeed. I mean, how many Range Rovers can one woman drive?

      And the price! Talk about instilling dread! I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.

      One last thing – Ellen Barkin was hardly poor. And for the dumb, hot young woman who is, I suggest that she take her below average IQ and work for a living. It looks like one winds up waiting tables either way!

  • VD

    I was remiss in failing to convey, Susan, my congratulations on such a bold post. You are absolutely correct, and the need to date and marry older is one of the logical consequences of the current SMP. Far too few are spelling this out for young women today.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I was remiss in failing to convey, Susan, my congratulations on such a bold post.

      Thank you sir.

  • VD

    Haven’t you seen Game of Thrones? Tyrion Lannister is the most “alpha” guy on the show! (Except around his dad, unfortch :( )

    Not even close. First, Tywin is easily the most alpha. Tyrion isn’t alpha at all. He trades on his family influence, has to buy his women, and is also overshadowed by Jamie and Ned. Glibness, guile, and passive-aggressiveness are not hallmarks of the alpha.

    Tyrion’s self-confidence is feigned, except for his belief in his intelligence. He’s banking on the idea that no one is going to hit a cripple.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I grew up raised by a single mother who worked housekeeping and waitressing, and she told me to find a rich husband and not care about love. But she was also incredibly frugal and did not indulge me. So I never cared for shoes, purses, jewelry, designer labels, fashion or travel. I’d much rather marry for love, to a good man that I am genuinely attracted to, and that is what I did.

    To each his/her own, though. Considering how many men here have denigrated gold-diggers, I’m surprised by the approval of it — I guess it’s groovy if you’re really hot.

  • Ted D

    Doomwolf – “Oh, and I would say that this is probably sound advice

    http://xkcd.com/400/

    LOL man. I have multiple Rhapsody playlists JUST for doing the ‘deed’ in several different genres so I can quickly queue up whatever “mood” I’m in at the time. Nothing brings fun-time to a prompt halt like “You Spin Me Round” blasting from the speakers just as we are getting to the good stuff… (and yes, I know this from experience unfortunately.)

  • JP

    @VD:

    ” it reminds me a little of when my father couldn’t figure out why anyone thought calculus was hard. Gee, I don’t know, maybe because NOT EVERYONE GOES TO GRAD SCHOOL AT MIT. ”

    This isn’t true. There’s a certain kind of intellectual intuition that makes many math and abstract concepts essentially transparent.

    It’s related to grasping the underlying unity of the concept.

    Once you unlock the subject, like calculus, the entire system falls into place like sandblasting a soup cracker because you see the unity.

    Ergo, I was able to sleep through calculus and skip class and have zero concern about getting a grade anywhere near failing.

    It’s a mental feature more than “going to grad school at MIT” and only applies to certain mathematical/scientific domains.

  • deti

    “I really wonder how people come to the conclusion that money can make them happy. The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.”

    For her part, Ellen Barkin hasn’t aged well either. She was positively smokin’ hot in The Big Easy and Sea of Love. Barkin hit The Wall at least a decade ago. Compare and contrast her photos: Google “Ellen Barkin” and then Google “young Ellen Barkin”. As a young woman in her 20s and early 30s she was sexy as hell.

    I will say this: Wikipedia lists a birthdate of April 1954 for her. That means she was early 30s when Big Easy came out. She’s 58 now and looks pretty good for that age. But keep in mind: Barkin is a respected stage and screen actress, married to one of the wealthiest men in the country. She can command virtually unlimited money and resources for personal trainers, nutrition consultants, makeup artists and cosmetic surgery. She probably spends at least one to three hours a day keeping in shape. most women don’t do that, and in fact most cannot.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      For her part, Ellen Barkin hasn’t aged well either. She was positively smokin’ hot in The Big Easy and Sea of Love.

      I’ve got to agree. The Big Easy has one of the sexiest film scenes I’ve ever watched. Sea of Love was great too. I just think it must have been hard to go from Gabriel Byrne to Perelman.

  • LJ

    @ GudEnuf

    ” The OK Cupid chart is misleading too. OK Cupid is a young demographic, so the chart primarily shows who is attractive to young people.

    Yeah, I would be interested in seeing a chart like that for a site like Match.com — there are few women or men over 35 on OkC from what I’ve seen.

    ” It’s true that as a man gets older, he will have a tougher time dating 20 year olds. But as long as he keeps adjusting the age of his women up to compensate his aging, dating will become easier and easier. And for women, dating becomes harder and harder.”

    I can see your point here … I suppose technically you could even say a 90 y/o man has better odds than an 80 y/o man because of the differences in life expectancies and how many more women than men are still alive at that age. But if you look at more than just raw numbers I think guys in their 30’s have a better “selection” than men in their 40’s and certainly 50’s especially if you’re a guy who is not interested in being a step-dad and would prefer to be with a never-married/no kids woman.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @LJ

      But if you look at more than just raw numbers I think guys in their 30′s have a better “selection” than men in their 40′s and certainly 50′s especially if you’re a guy who is not interested in being a step-dad and would prefer to be with a never-married/no kids woman.

      Exactly.

      Re charts from Match, unfortunately they don’t have the same kind of nifty blog that OKCupid does, so I don’t have access to that.

  • Bully

    @Deti:

    “She probably spends at least one to three hours a day keeping in shape. most women don’t do that, and in fact most cannot.”

    Okay. I’ll bite. If you’re single, why not? Even with a nine hour work day and an hour commute each way (absolute worst case scenario) that leaves ample time.

  • Bully

    Three hours a day may be excessive but even just one hour/day is supposedly far, far above the average, yet I have no problem fitting that in with a full time career.

  • Escoffier

    For the record, Perelman and Barkin had a pre-nup which stipulated that after a certain date she would be eligible to receive some rather large chunk of his fortune in the event of divorce. Literally the day before her options were set to vest, he moved all her stuff out of his townhouse and locked her out. It was a big story in the NYC tabloids, complete with photos of her on the streets cursing a blue streak at the house.

  • deti

    “The idea of waking up next to Ron Perelman (I can’t even bear to think about going to sleep with him) is enough to make me want to run away to the other side of the country and wait tables.””

    Comments like this are why the manosphere exists.

    Comments like this provide evidentiary support for the “all wimminz is beyotches” trope that you hate. Do you realize you just threw some gasoline on the smoldering embers of that fire?

    Do you realize that a large number of ordinary average men in their 30s to their 50s are going to resemble this man (balding, paunchy, out of shape)? In fact most of them won’t look even as good as Perelman does. These are the beta men (confident, competent, accomplished, kind, nondominant) you’re telling your female readers to marry and whom you say are attractive. And here you are running them down, essentially telling them they are physically repulsive.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Do you realize that a large number of ordinary average men in their 30s to their 50s are going to resemble this man (balding, paunchy, out of shape)? In fact most of them won’t look even as good as Perelman does. These are the beta men (confident, competent, accomplished, kind, nondominant) you’re telling your female readers to marry and whom you say are attractive. And here you are running them down, essentially telling them they are physically repulsive.

      Are you kidding me? Jeez, if I had a nickel for every time I’ve seen the manosphere rag on women who let themselves go! It’s a sentiment frequently expressed here!

      You made numerous errors in logic here.

      1. There is no correlation between ordinariness and being overweight or out of shape.
      2. If by average, you mean the mean BMI of the American male, perhaps that is obese, IDK. If you mean average looking, again, I don’t see the link to obesity.
      3. Beta has nothing to do with being physically unattractive. In fact, beta men (lower T, higher E) are regularly rated as more attractive by women in studies.
      4. I am not running anyone except Ron Perelman down, whom I consider to be a Bad Man. Yes, he is physically repulsive, but it’s so much more than that!

      You’re getting dangerously close to defending that guy in Blue Valentine again. *Shudder*

  • Escoffier

    Susan can clarify what she meant by the Perelman comment, if she meant him physically or what is known about his personality. I will say, re: the later, is that he has a reputation for being a gigantic a-hole.

  • deti

    “Instead of going for a fat, ugly boor she could opt for some IB all-star half his age making a very nice living indeed. I mean, how many Range Rovers can one woman drive?

    And the price! Talk about instilling dread! I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”

    Susan, you want to know why men are bitter and angry? In large part because of comments like these. Every divorced man out there has an ex wife who has said things like this about him. Pretty nasty stuff. But hey, it’s your blog.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @deti

      Susan, you want to know why men are bitter and angry? In large part because of comments like these. Every divorced man out there has an ex wife who has said things like this about him. Pretty nasty stuff. But hey, it’s your blog.

      If that is why men are bitter and angry, then yes, they need to man up. You’re taking this out of context and blowing it out of proportion.

      Facts:

      1. As Escoffier said, RP is a well known asshole.
      2. RP is physically repulsive.
      3. RP is very, very rich.
      4. No one believes Ellen Barkin fell in love with or was ever attracted to RP.
      5. He traded her celebrity and fading looks for his money and lifestyle, and vice versa. It was a Faustian bargain.

      No sympathy.

  • deti

    Esco:

    Oh, I think it’s pretty clear what Susan meant.

    “fat, ugly boor”

    “I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”

    This is what women think of their aging, not so physically attractive husbands. Though Susan apparently doesn’t think this of her husband, she is certainly giving voice to those who do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      This is what women think of their aging, not so physically attractive husbands. Though Susan apparently doesn’t think this of her husband, she is certainly giving voice to those who do.

      This makes no sense to me. Aren’t physically unattractive men generally married to physically unattractive women? Why would women judge their husbands harshly as they age? If she wasn’t grossed out by him at 25, why should she be grossed out by him now? Maybe they both let themselves go and they gross each other out.

      If a woman or man doesn’t want to gross out their spouse, they just have to maintain their health. Men demand it all the time, why shouldn’t women? Because we’re not as “visual?”

      RP is fat, ugly and boorish. I suspect he was always this way. He has purchased various wives but money can’t buy love (or tingle).

  • VD

    This isn’t true. There’s a certain kind of intellectual intuition that makes many math and abstract concepts essentially transparent.

    Congratulations. In attempting to make yourself look highly intelligent, you’ve demonstrated that you can’t read as well as the common howler monkey. The point is not that MIT post-grads are the only people capable of easily grasping calculus, it is that MOST PEOPLE FIND CALCULUS TO BE DIFFICULT.

    If I’d chosen the example of Reggie Miller and three-point shooting instead, would you have claimed “this isn’t true” and argued that you can shoot threes well?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      MOST PEOPLE FIND CALCULUS TO BE DIFFICULT.

      I had to show up at Wharton early with about 50 other students to take Calculus for Dummies. :-/

  • Passer_By

    @deti
    “This is what women think of their aging, not so physically attractive husbands. Though Susan apparently doesn’t think this of her husband, she is certainly giving voice to those who do.”

    No, that’s how she feels about marrying an ugly but rich old man for his money when you’re not attracted to him. The dude is almost 70. If his wife was 65, it would be another matter.

    My question to Susan: Whatever happened to “ugly sexy”? Maybe these women find him “ugly sexy” because of his outsized and dominant personality.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @pvw

      My question to Susan: Whatever happened to “ugly sexy”? Maybe these women find him “ugly sexy” because of his outsized and dominant personality.

      Good point! I’m sure that is possible or even likely. However, it would appear that the ugly sexy magic wears off. I think having a bad personality may be an issue.

  • Jackie

    @Deti

    Deti, the repulsiveness of Perelman is in his character (or lack thereof, rather). He is spiritually and morally grotesque.

    I have seen men much fatter, shorter and less conventionally than RP who are truly loved by their wives. I know quite a few, in fact, especially in the older generation!

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    That reminds me, I’ve been meaning to ask…how exactly is your goal to get a girlfriend coming along? We rarely hear field reports from you. Met anyone cute lately? ;)

    Well I have a goal to get not just any girlfriend, but a girlfriend who’ll be a future wife. ;)

    Did meet this girl during astronomy study group but turned out she had a boyfriend. Not taking any non-STEM classes this semester, so that cuts down on the interactions with girls.

  • Jackie

    “Not even close. First, Tywin is easily the most alpha. Tyrion isn’t alpha at all. He trades on his family influence, has to buy his women, and is also overshadowed by Jamie and Ned. Glibness, guile, and passive-aggressiveness are not hallmarks of the alpha.

    Tyrion’s self-confidence is feigned, except for his belief in his intelligence. He’s banking on the idea that no one is going to hit a cripple.”
    ===
    I should have added “in my opinion.” The men I regard as alpha are much different than many of the definitions I’ve seen. Tyrion has retained empathy in the face of horrific abuse and a kind of integrity. To me, that kind of strength and resilience is beyond impressive; seeing as denigrating into sociopathy is pretty much the Lannister default.

    To me, Tywin is pathetic, and his insanely dysfunctional descendants are more than proof of that. And that’s not even counting the incest or Joffrey!

  • Passer_By

    @vd

    “Congratulations. In attempting to make yourself look highly intelligent, you’ve demonstrated that you can’t read as well as the common howler monkey”

    Well, I think I read pretty well, but your prior post was poorly written (perish the thought). It was, at best, ambiguous. But, read literally, most would take it to mean that attending MIT was what magically made him able to understand calculus, rather than the other way around (i.e., his innate understanding of such things allowed him to attend grad school at MIT). Now, I wouldn’t have assumed that that’s what you meant, but it’s what you said.

    And, ironically, I think it’s you who misread JP’s post. His point was that was that some people just have that intellectual intuition, which others don’t (which is essentially the same as yours, I think). But we’ll refrain from calling you a howler monkey.

    In other words, Reggie Miller had a natural knack for shooting threes. Playing for God’s team at UCLA didn’t magically transform him into a good three point shooter.

  • deti

    Jackie:

    “Deti, the repulsiveness of Perelman is in his character (or lack thereof, rather). He is spiritually and morally grotesque.”

    That’s not what Susan said. Perhaps that is your opinion, but it’s not what Susan said. She referred to — and recoiled from — Perelman’s physical attributes, not his character defects.

    The point is that a lot of women view in this way men who are not classically physically attractive. Susan is tacitly supporting it, and I’m simply pointing it out. I’m also pointing out that this attitude, which Susan has given voice to, is one of the primary reasons the manosphere exists.

    Susan has wondered where the hostility and anger comes from. I’m saying the attitude and opinion she expressed is one of the reasons why.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That’s not what Susan said. Perhaps that is your opinion, but it’s not what Susan said. She referred to — and recoiled from — Perelman’s physical attributes, not his character defects.

      That’s not true. I used the word boor to describe him as a “rude, ill-mannered person.”

  • Bully

    Just as it’s delusional to assume that all men age into Clooney, it’s just as unfair to assume that all men age and look like Perlman. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

    There’s a set of men in my office in their 40s that look after themselves, and while no one would confuse them for a fresh college grad they’re not even close to paunchy, and in fact can still run rings around the mid 20s guys. Hell, one keeps up with college kids reffing basketball games and barely breaks a sweat. All other things being equal, given equal time and effort training, yes, the younger guys would win, but the fact is, they don’t put in the effort to do so, so it’s kind of a moot point.

    With proper diet, training, supplementation, and yes, plastic surgery if needed, it’s not too hard to err much more towards the side of Clooney for men.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    deti, would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?

    I don’t comment on looks much, but most people do get that gold diggers aren’t into much older men’s looks. It’s the pocketbooks they’re after. That was the point Susan was making.

    And is it really controversial to say that most people don’t continue to look great into their 60s, as compared to 20-30 years younger? That was the counterpoint to “go after older men.” 20-something year old going for a 30 year old is one thing. 40 is eyebrow-raising, 50 is stretching it, and 60 is outlier of outliers.

  • deti

    Bully:

    “Just as it’s delusional to assume that all men age into Clooney, it’s just as unfair to assume that all men age and look like Perlman. The truth is somewhere in the middle.”

    Agreed. And I didn’t say that “all men age and look like Perelman”. What I said was:

    “a large number of ordinary average men in their 30s to their 50s are going to resemble [Perelman].”

    Yes, men can and should look after themselves. They should keep their weight down, and look their best. I’m not saying men are entitled to hot women when they are classically physically unattractive. The only reason Ron Perelman was able to pull Ellen Barkin (even when she was 46 and well past her prime) was because of his money. I get that.

    Again, here’s the point:

    “The point is that a lot of women view in this way men who are not classically physically attractive. Susan is tacitly supporting it, and I’m simply pointing it out. I’m also pointing out that this attitude, which Susan has given voice to, is one of the primary reasons the manosphere exists.”

  • J

    @Ramble

    I guess my question is, outside of HUS, is anyone actually incorporating this rule of thumb into their advice?

    I’ve heard male commenters, particularly those seeking involvements with younger women, at Roissy and elsewhere in the ‘sphere quote this maxim seriously. I don’t hear it much IRL.

    Personally, find a gap of more than ten years problematic. It may be OK during one’s middle years, but as we age those ten years can seem like a lot more. Who wants to spend their still healthy 60s taking care of a sick or senile 80 year old? Obviously, there are people who do it and should be commended for faithfulness to a sick spouse, but I have a hard time in understanding why someone might voluntarily sign up for that.

    Considering that my mom and dad lived till 87 and 92 respectively and my in-laws died young, I sort of expect to be a widow. I sometimes wonder, were I to be widowed, if I would find a new relationship. I do doubt though that, were I a healthy and fit 70 year old, that I’d want to take on the health problems of an 80 year old guy. In fact, I know widows in that position who refuse the attentions of frailer men. They’ve already lost one man and don’t want to nursemaid another.

  • JP

    @VD:

    You are absolutely adorable.

    I pointed out self-hugging several posts ago:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/who-we-are/201211/freud-was-self-hugger

  • le biel

    @ deti – you need to read this rational male post:
    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @le biel

      I never thought I’d be happy to link to Rollo, but that post on desire is excellent.

  • deti

    Hope:

    “would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?”

    Thanks for making my point for me. Women do this all the time. In today’s world it is perfectly fine for women to express sexual revulsion about fat and ugly men. But if a man expresses that same sentiment in public and in writing about unattractive and overweight women, he’s a sexist pig jerk. There’s a double standard here.

    “most people do get that gold diggers aren’t into much older men’s looks. It’s the pocketbooks they’re after. That was the point Susan was making.”

    No, it’s not. Here’s the point she was making:

    “fat, ugly boor”

    “I’d spend every day dreading bedtime – blech! That’s probably why he keeps having ugly divorces. I bet his wives won’t put out for him.”

  • deti

    le biel:

    1. I’m familiar with the post and the concepts it espouses, and agree with them fully. You can’t negotiate sexual desire. It’s either there or it isn’t. I understand that.

    For the fourth time, the point is this: There’s a lot of anger and bitterness and hostility in the manosphere. The hostess of this blog hates it. She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive. She gives tacit support to that thought process. I think it’s unwise, short sighted and offensive; and will just give her detractors more fodder for unfair criticism.

    2. Be careful about linking to He Who Shall Not Be Named here.

  • Ramble

    I’ve heard male commenters, particularly those seeking involvements with younger women, at Roissy and elsewhere in the ‘sphere quote this maxim seriously. I don’t hear it much IRL.

    OK, so, that jibes with what I am seeing/hearing as well. Other than that one time as a child, I never heard this rule of thumb ever communicated outside or HUS/Manosphere.

    So, with that in mind, is that kind of rule-of-thumb (regardless of it’s accuracy/helpfulness) “beyond the pale”?

    Let me put it another way, I don’t find this rule of thumb to be any less useful than, say, “never date anyone at your workplace”, which I have heard many times over the years. Personally, I can see why someone might communicate that adage, but, I don’t find it to be all that helpful (sure, sometimes it applies, but, so often, it does not).

    My guess is that the rule of “1/2 Age + 7″ is simply politically incorrect (i.e. recognizes basic biological differences, values youthful fertility, values youthful sexual attractiveness, seems to give men an advantage, etc.) and therefore is, now, considered “beyond the pale”.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    deti, men are making “ugly and fat” comments about women all the time online. I don’t hear it much from women, online or offline, though perhaps you would consider women talking up how hot certain celebrities are to be just as bad.

    Personal opinions about looks are just that. I’ve been called ugly enough times. There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features. Do I go after each of them with a pitchfork?

  • J

    It will always be easier for him to find a wife next year than this year, so why rush?….Because the highest value women get snapped up.

    I think this is very true once we remove ourselves from the sphere of the ultra-rich. A guy like Ron Perelman, whom I would regard as average looking for his age, will always have options that a less wealthy man will not. I also find that, once money is off the table, it’s the women who have fewer options or who have been abandoned by their own fathers who go for the older guys.

  • Jackie

    @Deti

    Deti, I don’t think Hope made your point for you at all. You are only getting the smallest taste of what women are getting, re: criticism regarding physical appearance.

    Remember when the former commenter Obs said that all women can do is “Be hot and lower your standards”? Remember how Ramble wants movies/tv to feature a girl being dumped by her BF for being 10 lbs overweight?

    I think the 1-10 scale is just about as dehumanizing as you can get: Women are being reduced to a number, not even an adjective. And being told that is your sole value in the eyes of men.

    It’s awful when people do it to men OR women. I think it’s just as hurtful to guys. I am on the side of good character making a person become truly beautiful but it’s a minority view among both women AND men!

  • Ramble

    Even with a nine hour work day and an hour commute each way (absolute worst case scenario) that leaves ample time.

    Bully, in many cases I disagree.

    Right out of college I was working in NYC and commuting about 70 minutes each way each workday. After walking to the station, waiting for the train, standing for 30 minutes on that train, then walking to the garage and driving home in traffic I was fucking exhausted. Granted, my profession involves a lot of technical problem solving so that also adds to the (mental) exhaustion.

    By the time I got home I had little energy to go workout. Now, that does not mean that I could not go workout, but it would have been one more thing that I did not NEED to do that I was adding to my list of “chores”.

    Also, if I did go workout, assuming that this was, say, a 45 minute workout, by the tie I got back and showered, it would basically be bedtime.

    Now, since moving from the NYC area I get to the gym 4-5 times a week (sometimes 6 if I am adding in cardio).

  • pvw

    J and others addressing this point:

    Personally, find a gap of more than ten years problematic. It may be OK during one’s middle years, but as we age those ten years can seem like a lot more ….. I do doubt though that, were I a healthy and fit 70 year old, that I’d want to take on the health problems of an 80 year old guy. In fact, I know widows in that position who refuse the attentions of frailer men. They’ve already lost one man and don’t want to nursemaid another.

    Me: Thes observations reminds me of something.

    A fair number of the old timers are in the 60+ crowd, some more vigorous than others. A fair number are married. Of all the old timers, there is one that still seems to be interested in chasing women at 71 (he tried to pick me up some time ago, rather hilarious–the man’s children must be my age, a bit older or even a bit younger. He is just a few years younger than my dad). I’ve mentioned him in the past.

    So think about it; the women in their 60s as a whole don’t look all that great, forget the ones in their 70s. Among the 50 year olds are some attractive looking marreid MILF types; yes, you can see they are older, but they keep themselves in shape. So he has to go down in age to the 35 and up crowd. Some single women, some divorcees?

    Now imagine a woman at the higher range of that age, say 40-50, the only women I read about who go that age are those who marry men with lots of money, and the cynical view is that if he will become frail within a relatively short period of time, they are ready to scoop up the dollars. Think–the late Anna Nicole Smith (born 1967) and J. Howard Marshall (born 1905), Rupert Murdoch (born 1931) and Wendy Deng (born 1968).

    So if he is really looking, I wonder at how successful he will be. I hope he has what it takes to get the type of woman he wants.

    @ Susan:

    Ideal age difference for women: male 3.4 years older

    Ideal age at marriage for women: 25.4 years

    Therefore…ideal age of husband at marriage: 28.8 years

    For a 30 year old man, 22 is the lower limit.

    No matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age.

    Me: This ties in with some of what I felt when I was that age, and it reminds me of something we spoke of earlier, of being teenagers and having grown men hit on us. When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s. It felt wierd and scary, as though a man who was so much older was deliberately targeting me because he might have felt I was young and naive (vulnerable, but not in a good way) and not mature enough to negotiate a relationship with a man so much older and experienced. It was only until I was in my mid 20s that I felt mature enough to date more mature men in their late 20s and 30s. Mr. PVW is several years older than me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @PVW

      This ties in with some of what I felt when I was that age, and it reminds me of something we spoke of earlier, of being teenagers and having grown men hit on us. When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s. It felt wierd and scary, as though a man who was so much older was deliberately targeting me because he might have felt I was young and naive (vulnerable, but not in a good way) and not mature enough to negotiate a relationship with a man so much older and experienced

      I had the same association – when the male writer suggested that we need rules and norms so that fathers don’t hit on their daughters’ friends.

      I recall when my daughter was 18, a 24 year old took an interest in her at their summer job. She felt that the age difference was very great – he was in law school, she was on her way to college. Now she’s 23 and he’s 29. That would be no big deal. It is definitely about maturity.

  • J

    @JP

    On the other hand, self hugging one’s values is common to all universally reinforcing stimuli. Human beings are naturally motivated to assert their values; to think their values are best; and to be intolerant of people with opposite values.

    Interesting link. Is self-hugging a form of solipsism?

  • jrd

    Hope: “would you say, then, that men can express disgust at fat and ugly women, but women cannot ever do so about men?”

    I’ve noticed a great amount of disgust toward women over the age of 30. Actually, the “sell by date” for women on a number of male-centric blogs is 25.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Actually, the “sell by date” for women on a number of male-centric blogs is 25.

      That’s sour grapes, it makes no sense.

  • Ramble

    There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features.

    Hope, it seems to me that, usually, the pro/con ratio of Asian women and the features is usually pretty positive, sometimes to the point of fetishization.

    Granted, this is mostly with white men, but if hip hop videos are to be used as a metric, it would seem that black men are also quite open to the idea of Asian women as being beautiful.

    Still, I definitely feel for you and the mean things that were said to you.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “I do think his “sum attractiveness” is bogus, though.”

    Damn. Thats the only thing on this whole post that keeps me out of the cave with Cooper, though for totally different reasons.

    Seems like the age gap is built in from the get-go. In HS there are plenty of 9 and 10 grade women with BF’s or suitors from the 11/12 grades. In years that may not be much, but in terms of relative status, social circles, etc. yr 9 to yr 12 is substantial. Same thing is repeated in college. So at what point do women suddenly become turned off to this notion of an age gap? IMO, three year gap in HS seemed kind of gross, while a 5, even up to 10 year gap between 25 and 35, not so much.

    Perhaps it has more to do with people becoming too entrenched in their age-specific social circles and thus lacking the opportunities to mix it up with an older set than an actual resistance to older suitors. But I’m still curious about this resistance: is it a form of jealousy-shaming from their peers; a way of assuring no one escapes the herd, gets to jump ahead in the status game? Box seats vs bleacher seats.

    Maybe the “math” going forward for women could be: take the # of proms you attended (or were invited to) from HS yrs 9-12 and multiply by 5. Chances are, if you were a freshwoman dating a junior or senior, you are probably more into the ‘touch of grey’ than you think. If you never got asked to prom, then you can probably relate well to a whole lot of men who had to wait (or are still waiting) to see their SMV rise into view – and that’s a good thing.

    @Cooper
    While I’d never want to go back and start over at 18, I’d entertain the chance to start again at 23-ish. A red pill dose that young would open up all kinds of opportunities. Keep in mind that the apex of all these charts is not something to wait for; that would be relying way too much on timing, a default approach that I think younger women are finding to be unreliable at best. We are either on the way up or the way down in terms of our SMV-MMV; these so-called “sweet spots” are elusive and fleeting, they are unreliable anchor points. As for those curves, you are on one side, I am on the other. The left side is about taking risk to expand options/possibilities, the right side is about mitigating risk to preserve options/possibilities. Wanna trade?

    @Jackie@SayWhat
    “but 5’7″ isn’t “short.” I would say it’s “not tall” or “pretty near average.”
    I won’t speak for Lokland, but I didn’t get my growth spurt until quite late. I know 5’7″ and it is short, plain and simple. :-)

    I’m 5’9.75″ and I’m still in the short camp far more often than in the “average” camp. You two are sweet and height may not matter to much to you (the beloved 1%), but even setting aside the biological mechanisms behind height and how that plays into physical dominance and all that fun stuff, in a static setting like online dating, its a trapdoor. IME, in the internet dating venue women almost always have a hard-stop, the lower end they will entertain (though this tends to be less common with age). In fact, becoming invisible is easy: make height <5'9" and income less than $40k. *poof*

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, I used to care more about that sort of thing, but I’m too old for that now (@jrd, yes, in manosphere terms I’m “past my prime”). :P I do, of course, try to keep up my looks. I’m not going to discount how important they are to men, and my husband is a man.

    Jackie, men don’t often want to be criticized for their looks, just as women don’t often want to be criticized for their looks. There seems to be a pattern here… ;D

  • Ramble

    Remember how Ramble wants movies/tv to feature a girl being dumped by her BF for being 10 lbs overweight?

    Again, Jackie, to be clear, I am not looking or hoping to see girls be mistreated or hurt in pop culture or in real life. I am not interested in hurting or attacking a demographic, sex or group.

    I am interested in what is the modern narrative and what is acceptable (for instance, my interest in what advice might be “beyond the pale”) to say relative to that narrative.

    For instance, I am genuinely sympathetic to Hope and almost any person that would have hurtful things said to them.

    And, well, I would say more about this, but I know that Susan is tired of this particaulr hobby horse, so, I will leave it at that.

    However, I did ask you a question a few threads back that you never answered, so, I will ask it again:

    Oh man, Ramble, if you are going to talk about how much you long for women to get dumped if they gain 5 lbs…

    Whoa. I am curious, when did I ever say this?

    When did I ever say that?

    Again, my interest in what Hollywood chooses to show, and what narratives they chooses to enforce is very different than what I would want to see in real life (i.e. I like that we have movies that depict the horrors of drug use and criminal activity, but I do not want those things to actually happen in real life).

  • Jackie

    @Deti

    “She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive.”
    ====
    Deti, can you not see that the disgust for RP is borne out of his awful treatment of others? I have seen Susan advocate for all kinds of guys, many of whom are nowhere near “conventional” hotness.

    Examples include the actor Peter Dinklage, who plays the dwarf Tyrion on GoT. What about that skinny emo Nathan Hardin– his arms were like pencils? Some guys didn’t seem to like it but tons of girls thought he was hot, regardless.

    Besides that, Susan has mentioned how a good sense of humor and a quick wit give less-than-conventional-attractive men a huge bonus.

    *It’s Perelman’s narcissistic selfishness that makes him repugnant.*

    I bet if there was a guy who looked like a carbon copy of him, who was just a regular guy of awesome character who truly loved his family and adored his wife, we’d all be swooning. Susan included, I bet! ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What about that skinny emo Nathan Hardin– his arms were like pencils?

      Be still my beating heart!

  • Ramble

    @jrd, yes, in manosphere terms I’m “past my prime”

    If you were interested in being a bar skank, than you might be past your prime, but if you are interested in being a great mother, you are probably riding the wave right now.

    Jackie, men don’t often want to be criticized for their looks, just as women don’t often want to be criticized for their looks. There seems to be a pattern here… ;D

    Few guys have any interest in being pretty. Ruggedly handsome? Sure.

    Just think of how different these two scenarios are:

    One man to another: Hey, pretty boy!
    One girl to another: Hey, pretty girl!

    The one ends in a fight and the other ends in a hug.

    Our desires and your desires are, in general, significantly different and often complimentary.

  • J

    For the fourth time, the point is this: There’s a lot of anger and bitterness and hostility in the manosphere. The hostess of this blog hates it. She’s throwing gasoline on that fire by breaking bad on a guy like Ron Perelman because he’s unattractive. She gives tacit support to that thought process. I think it’s unwise, short sighted and offensive; and will just give her detractors more fodder for unfair criticism.

    Deti, I think what Susan is guilty of here is making a snarky remark about the looks of someone whose behavior she found ugly. People do that sort of thing all the time. I would considser the ‘sphere’s attacks on the looks of the EPL author and her new husband, who are also pretty average looking, in the same view.

    Susan is generally very positive about the appearances of average-looking men. I have seen her compliment the avatar pix of many men who were, frankly, average. You are over-reacting and possibly imputing the motives of other women in your life to Susan. I’ve seen nothing in the general philosophy of this blog that suggests to me that Susan supports “looks-ism.”

  • deti

    “deti, men are making “ugly and fat” comments about women all the time online.”

    And those men are routinely excoriated and eviscerated for it, sometimes right here on this blog.

    “Personal opinions about looks are just that. I’ve been called ugly enough times. There are men who say all sorts of things about Asian features. Do I go after each of them with a pitchfork?”

    Your solipsism is showing.

    Again: The point is that comments like Susan’s are a big reason why the manosphere exists. Men KNOW women see them this way, if women see them at all.

    Comments like these are also a big part of why there is anger and hostility in the ‘sphere; and why many men don’t see Susan and this blog as allies. Susan hates it, and since she hates it, I respectfully suggest she not say things that foster it and give credence to it. Too many men will look at these comments and say “See?! SEE?! THIS is what women think of us men! This is why teh wimminz is beyotches and can’t be trusted!”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Comments like these are also a big part of why there is anger and hostility in the ‘sphere; and why many men don’t see Susan and this blog as allies. Susan hates it, and since she hates it, I respectfully suggest she not say things that foster it and give credence to it. Too many men will look at these comments and say “See?! SEE?! THIS is what women think of us men! This is why teh wimminz is beyotches and can’t be trusted!”

      I’m sorry deti, but I really think you’ve gone off the rails here. If men see me as the enemy because I think Ron Perelman is gross in every way, including physically, they’ve got issues. To put it mildly.

      If men don’t want to be referred to in derogatory terms, they would do well not to emulate Mr. P in any way. Unfortunately, 90% in the sphere would view him as Awesome Alpha.

  • jrd

    pvw: ” This ties in with some of what I felt when I was that age, and it reminds me of something we spoke of earlier, of being teenagers and having grown men hit on us. When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s.”

    It was different for me. When I was 18 and a man in his 30s hit on me, I couldn’t understand why that old man thought I would be interested in him. Because I came of age pre-Internet and blogs were not available to me, I didn’t discover until after I was already married to a man only a year older than me that as an 18-22 I was supposed to be hot for men at least 10 years older than me.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    deti “Too many men will look at these comments and say “See?! SEE?! THIS is what women think of us men! This is why teh wimminz is beyotches and can’t be trusted!””

    Really? Just from some comments about some aging billionaire?

    “Your solipsism is showing.”

    Ah, maybe that is because I tend to not over-exaggerate the effects of something, the way certain folks in the manosphere shriek every time a woman says something remotely “bad” about any man.

    There are some parts of the Web that exist which have some very unsavory characters. They do not all exist for legitimate reasons. The manosphere might have started out with good gripes, but Susan isn’t the “enemy #1″ here. If they think she is, they’re delusional.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble

    “However, I did ask you a question a few threads back that you never answered, so, I will ask it again:

    Oh man, Ramble, if you are going to talk about how much you long for women to get dumped if they gain 5 lbs…
    Whoa. I am curious, when did I ever say this?

    When did I ever say that?”
    ====
    Hey Ramble,
    I’m sorry I missed your question. My apologies! :(

    I was being intentionally hyperbolic– you’ve never said the 5lbs part to my knowledge. Didn’t you say 10lbs, though? Or maybe 15? For a tv show/movie to show a girl being dumped specifically due to weight gain, was your hope right?

    Maybe I am mistaken. Could you clarify and let me know? Thank’ee :)

  • deti

    Jackie, J:

    She wasn’t talking about Perelman being an asshole, or even about his being undesirable as a man because of an unattractive personality or distasteful behavior. She was talking about him being fat and ugly, specifically about how his $ balanced out his physical unattractiveness.

    In fact, I didn’t use the words fat and ugly. SHE did.

    You are all missing the point that I have made five times already. Comments like hers implicitly tell the manosphere “yes, you’re right. Wimminz really ARE beyotches. We’re shallow and focused on your looks and your money; and if you’re fat and ugly, you better have big bucks or you’re NEVER going to get laid”.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    J, I agree. Susan has personally made compliments to a lot of male commenters here. Nobody calls out those comments and say, “See! Susan is friendly to men!” They only jump on her when she makes any perceived misstep.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nobody calls out those comments and say, “See! Susan is friendly to men!”

      Haha, if that ever happened I’d go into shock! Actually, I think most regulars here believe that I am supportive of men. After Dalrockgate and the sphere’s targeting of me in general, I resolved to continue to help men in my own way, independent of them, whether they like it or not. I’ve come to view most of them as keyboard playground bullies – all trying hard to grab my braids and pull them.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    deti, honestly, what does it matter to HUS what the manosphere thinks?

    You might be overreacting just a tad.

  • Maggie

    ” But if a man expresses that same sentiment in public and in writing about unattractive and overweight women, he’s a sexist pig jerk. There’s a double standard here. ”

    This happens as well. For instance, I’ve seen a lot of snarky comments from men about Hillary Clinton’s looks, and she’s not even unattractive. Fat women get s lot of grief. Even one person commented on this blog that women go from “made to mom to crone.” Crone, really? Is that how you refer to elderly women and grandmothers?

  • Bully

    @Ramble re: training: I suppose, but given I was in a full-time job with an extremely long commute (hour+ by car one way), and also in a mentally demanding career, with 10-11 hours of work + job, and 8 hours of sleep (extremely generous) that still leaves a solid five hours. If you were working a lot of OT, I guess that would be different, but still. Five hours is a lot of time.

    Even if I was ass tired, I still did it for two reasons – a.) because if I was tired when I was young in my 20s, it wasn’t going to get any better with age unless I physically developed myself to counter the stress and b.) I have no intention of suffering the slow decline of a disease of affluence like so many in my family have.

    I’m really, really not trying to sound preachy, don’t get me wrong but in the context of relationships being fit is so incredibly important for both men and women, such that it’s worth sacrificing much for – if the primal urges are lacking, there’s nothing for it to stand on.

  • Jackie

    @deti

    Deti, have you ever heard the quote “Be the change you wish to see in the world”?

    I ask because I often wonder why you are here. Specifically, what you are seeking and what you hope to gain. This is a blog for young women, ostensibly you are here for your daughter.

    Yet, several times when I have asked you what actions you will take as a result of convos here, you have never replied, as far as I can see.

    It’s a shame, because I believe you have a lot of knowledge and wisdom to contribute, especially as an older person (I miss Munson SO much :( ). Yet, so many of your posts are crabbing about how bad things are. The only thing missing is yelling “GET OFF MAH LAWN!”

    And that’s too bad, because instead of making things better, it’s wallowing in the status quo.

    In other words: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Ramble, my husband likes it when I compliment his looks. I don’t call him pretty, but I do call him hot, sexy, good-looking and handsome.

    Your scenarios were all same-sex. Imagine the opposite sex scenario, with “Hey pretty boy” replaced by “Hey good-looking.” ;)

  • J

    My guess is that the rule of “1/2 Age + 7″ is simply politically incorrect (i.e. recognizes basic biological differences, values youthful fertility, values youthful sexual attractiveness, seems to give men an advantage, etc.) and therefore is, now, considered “beyond the pale”.

    I question the usefulness of this maxim as well. If a 24 yo man pairs up with a 19 yo woman, it’s all good to me, but an 80 yo man with a 47 yo woman? It’s a nice fantasy, but, as a woman who in her 50s, I can tell you that any affection I feel towards men in their 80s comes out of missing my dad. The older the man is, the less the maxim holds IMO.

    On some level, even many men recognize this. There’s a lot of knowing smiles/laughter among men my age when they see a young woman with an old man. They assume that he is being used and hope that the sex is worth it.

  • Lokland

    @deti

    “You are all missing the point that I have made five times already. Comments like hers implicitly tell the manosphere “yes, you’re right. Wimminz really ARE beyotches.”

    Dude, he’s short, fat, old and ugly.
    His wife is hot.

    The only thing to be pissed about is that Susan is not a gold digger and his wife is.

    Like fuck, seriously, being ugly doesn’t give you a legitimate reason to be pissed at others for not liking you.

    Fact of life.

    If they want to resent the fact that they suck thats their personal choice and their perfectly entitled to do so. Its no one else’s responsibility to be attracted to them.

  • deti

    Hope:

    Go back and read my comment at 92. It affects women readers as much as, if not more so than, men.

  • pvw

    @jrd:

    Me: When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s.”

    JRD: It was different for me. When I was 18 and a man in his 30s hit on me, I couldn’t understand why that old man thought I would be interested in him.

    Me: We feel the same way; because I didn’t feel mature enough, it seemed wierd that a man that old had an interest in me and that I should be interested in him for that reason. Someone old enough to be a much older cousin/young uncle/father, when I didn’t have some kind of daddy complex….

  • Lokland

    @Maggie

    “made to mom to crone.” Crone, really? Is that how you refer to elderly women and grandmothers?”

    That was a discussion between women.
    Hate the vagina on that one.

  • Ramble

    I’m sorry I missed your question. My apologies!

    No need to apologize, I have left many an internet question left unanswered.

    I was being intentionally hyperbolic– you’ve never said the 5lbs part to my knowledge. Didn’t you say 10lbs, though? Or maybe 15? For a tv show/movie to show a girl being dumped specifically due to weight gain, was your hope right?

    Yes, I most likely did say something like that. However, and this is important, I am not looking to give girls eating disorders by having females on popular shows be dumped for gaining 17 ounces. What I am interested in is, if we are going to see people get dumped for all sorts of reasons (he is controlling, she is a drama queen, etc.) then weight should be one as well.

    I am also a fan of seeing shorter guys, in pop culture, having a more difficult time with taller girls because that is something we see in real life. However, I do not revel in my shorter (male) friends having a harder row to hoe.

    Hollywood (i.e. pop culture) is, as far as I can tell, absolutely terrified of communicating to girls that their weight plays a big role in their SMV. And, I understand that people like Susan say, “well, duh, every girl already knows that”, but, personally, I am seeing something much more schizophrenic. And I think that our pop culture and MSM overlords are, not only not helping, but actively hurting the situation.

  • http://manboobz.com/2010/12/21/love-shyness-and-the-perpetual-resentment-machine/ jlw

    “She referred to — and recoiled from — Perelman’s physical attributes, not his character defects. ”

    Why should people apologize or soft-shoe around what they do or don’t find attractive? So long as they “own it” – accept responsibility that their standards may leave them high and dry – how is that a problem? I say this as a short, ugly, middle-aged, miserly and socially awkward individual who no woman of even average attractiveness has ever thought of as anything other than absolutely cringe-worthy, not some Adonis wannabe who doesn’t understand how the other half lives on the other side of the SMV tracks.

    What some people in the (wo)manospheres need to realize is that life isn’t fair, that they are owed nothing, and that some people – when their high and unchanging standards are combined with their low SMV – are destined to be alone forever. For that small-but-vocal minority to realize that and accept that, instead of churlishly howling on blogs, they need to get on with their lives, THAT is a challenge that the (wo)manospheres should embraced as a goal.

    Bottom line: stop being a perpetual resentment machines and accept your low SMV if that’s the hand you’ve been dealt.

  • Jackie

    @Deti

    Deti, we should wait for Susan to respond to you directly. I will only offer a counterexample, until then:

    If I remember correctly, Susan had some less than flattering things to say about Lena Dunham’s appearance in “Tiny Furniture” before LD’s show “Girls” had started. (LD was heavier, and prone to outbursts of nudity.)

    And look, once we got to see how talented LD was with her work on Girls, I don’t think a single woman has made an unkind remark about her (LD) looks. I don’t think the same has been true of the men regarding her appearance!

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    deti, the manosphere is so toxic that my husband asked me specifically to stop reading it in the first year that we were together.

    Keep bringing up the manosphere as if it’s so important, but it’s really not doing you any favors here. You might be gaining points with them, but losing points with the saner population of the world.

  • J

    When I was 18, I did not feel mature enough to be dating a man in his upper 20s or 30s. It felt wierd and scary, as though a man who was so much older was deliberately targeting me because he might have felt I was young and naive (vulnerable, but not in a good way) and not mature enough to negotiate a relationship with a man so much older and experienced.

    I hear that. In college, I was engaged to a man 9 nine years my senior. In retrospect, I do feel that I was targeted for my naiviete. The man went out to two marriages and a couple of kids out of wedlock.

    STEM guy, BTW. Biological sciences.

  • Lokland

    @Ramble

    “I am also a fan of seeing shorter guys, in pop culture, having a more difficult time with taller girls because that is something we see in real life”

    I’d settle for them even being shown on television in the first place and not be disabled, criminal, evil, abusive etc.

    Less of a problem with Canadian (my favourite actor is 5′ 7.5″) and international stuff.

    American TV makes it seem like all guys are + 5′ 10″.

  • deti

    Hope:

    I’m not here to gain points with the manosphere. I’m pointing out a sentiment. I’m also pointing out that a sizable number of the men in the 80%, the betas, deltas and gammas, and the BETAs Susan says she wants women to meet, date and marry, are going to resemble Perelman physically (short, fat and physically unattractive) even if they don’t resemble his personality.

    I am down with this, and I’m down with Susan’s goal. But calling such men fat and ugly, and how his wives wouldn’t put out for him and that’s why he keeps getting divorced, probably isn’t going to help attract many women to men like this.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I’m also pointing out that a sizable number of the men in the 80%, the betas, deltas and gammas, and the BETAs Susan says she wants women to meet, date and marry, are going to resemble Perelman physically (short, fat and physically unattractive

      What is the basis for this claim? It strikes me as preposterous. I probably see about two guys this ugly per day, and dozens or hundreds of men who look nothing like this.

      Perelman is pure alpha – they’re the ones most likely to look like him! YUCK!

  • Feelist

    Lokland,

    I’ve seen 5’6” guys with cute 5’10”/6 feet tall girlfriends. Some of those guys are my friends. They don’t have any Game, they aren’t rich, they aren’t assholes, they don’t have high potential income, they aren’t anywhere handsome and one or two are skinny.

    Don’t aim for the hottest of them all? And maybe date an European girl? That might help.

  • Lokland

    @Feelist

    Lol. I’m married its all good.
    I however, didn’t date tall girls. Not so much because they were unattractive but because I figured there was 0% chance of success.

    My tallest girlfriend was 5′ 8″. Black hair, blue eyes, pale skin, sweet, nurturing, dumb as a rock…couldn’t handle the last part.

    “And maybe date an European girl?”

    Never in a million years.

  • Passer_By

    Deti:

    I think there may be a point underlying what you are saying, but you are making it poorly, IMO. You seem to giving women a Hobson’s choice. If she finds him gross, she’s saying fat ugly men shouldn’t ever get laid. If she doesn’t, then it proves that women are gold diggers and all that matters is the wallet.

    But there is a point to be made that Deti is sort of touching on. Susan indicates that he probably wasn’t getting laid (understandably) in his marriage because he was fat, sweaty and gross. In other words, being the same fat, ugly, sweaty gross guy he was when he was married gives these women a good reason to reneg on an essential element of the marital compact. However, women (and polite society) do not allow for the converse. For example, polite society and major media could never suggest that Petraus was fully justified in looking for sex outside marriage (i.e., reneging on a central aspect of the marital compact) because his wife had LET HERSELF BECOME fat and gross (more than natural aging should have caused). People could make snarky anonymous comments on-line, but the feminine imperitive in our country would never allow it to be publicly stated, while Susan’s reaction to Perelman is completely accepted in the mainstream. This, I believe, is what is driving Deti crazy. If Deti’s point is that fat ugly old men deserve sex too, then I guess he should be ready to put out for Cigstache, but I assume he’s not saying that.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      You make an interesting point, and perhaps you have cracked the code in Bizarro Thread. However, I personally find it ridiculous to be held to account for what the MSM tolerates or publicizes. Deti does this constantly – he accuses, and then when I ask him to explain, he resorts to “Well, that’s what feminists do to men.” I don’t see that as having anything to do with me.

      Personally, I can’t recall any talk of Perelman’s looks, I’m just offering my personal opinion. And I saw more than a couple of newscasts where an awkward silence about Holly Petraeus’ photo made the point very clearly.

      I’m not invested in the debate politically, particularly, but fat ugly men get a much bigger pass in society than fat ugly women. Much, much bigger.

  • J

    the manosphere is so toxic that my husband asked me specifically to stop reading it in the first year that we were together

    Hope, do you know the scene in The Godfather where Kay and Michael are leaving the movie theater and Kay asks Michael if he would like her better if she were a nun? As a running joke with DH, I do an imitation of Kay and ask him questions about how he would like me better. Since I began reading in the ‘sphere, I will occasionally slip in a manosphere trope like, “Would you like me better if I were more submissive?” The typical response is “Where are getting this craziness coming from?”

  • J

    I’m 5’9.75″ and I’m still in the short camp far more often than in the “average” camp. You two are sweet and height may not matter to much to you (the beloved 1%),

    Can I be sweet too? Not permanently, just to try it on to see what it feels like? ;-)

    DH is a smidge shorter than you are, Tas.

  • Passer_By

    @J

    “I will occasionally slip in a manosphere trope like, “Would you like me better if I were more submissive?” The typical response is “Where are getting this craziness coming from?””

    I think you are knocking down a straw man here. Most in the manosphere would not say that they want submissive women. They want women who are pleasant, loyal and who want to fuck them silly on a regular basis. It just so happens that they’ve noticed that this result comes more often if they assume a dominant position and demand submissiveness. In other words, the women like them better if they expect the women to be somewhat submissive. If you happen to still be all those things with your husband despite him not exerting any level of dominance whatsoever, then great for you.

  • jrd

    Hope: “the manosphere is so toxic that my husband asked me specifically to stop reading it”

    I had to stop reading them because I was allowing it to affect how I viewed my husband. These men are saying these things, my husband is a man, therefore he must feel the same way. Had I been exposed to those blogs before I started dating, I never would have dated. It was a case of “if that’s what men think about women, relationships and sex, I would be stupid to having anything to do with a male.”

  • madisonkc

    For what’s worth to guys like INTJ, Cooper, etc– I’m 21 and I definitely cannot see myself with a guy in his 30s+. I think 26 is my upper limit and that would be really really pushing it! Part of the reason is because of my inexperience and the other part is just about being turned off.
    I guess I would change my mind over time (probably around 25) but I still couldn’t picture myself with a much older guy.
    And also, my girlfriends who are in relationships, do date and also prefer guys around their age. In fact, I think the oldest SO among my early twenties friends is 25.

    I don’t understand the whole waiting until a man is financially stable before entering relationships. To me, it seems like the best route would be looking for men who are very ambitious and goal-oriented, being with him, and then developing together through age and experience.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @madisonkc

      I don’t understand the whole waiting until a man is financially stable before entering relationships. To me, it seems like the best route would be looking for men who are very ambitious and goal-oriented, being with him, and then developing together through age and experience.

      That is an excellent strategy! Many guys in their early 20s are not ready, but some clearly are – INTJ and Cooper are two great examples.

  • J

    then I guess he should be ready to put out for Cigstache, but I assume he’s not saying that.

    The more I look at that picture, the more convinced I am that Cigstache is a fat guy with manboobs and rocker hair that he put in pigtails for Halloween. The hands are man hands.

  • Ted D

    Deti – “You are all missing the point that I have made five times already.”

    In a very strange role reversal here, I can’t help but say: you are spinning your wheels brother.

  • J

    I had to stop reading them because I was allowing it to affect how I viewed my husband. These men are saying these things, my husband is a man, therefore he must feel the same way.

    Just the opposite for me. The more I read in the ‘sphere, the more I appreciate DH and my marriage.

    This stuff would scare the hell out of me if were single though.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Re the optimum age of marriage…I’m currently reading Edna Ferber’s 1911 novel “Dawn O’Hara, the Girl Who Laughed” (which is pretty good, especially for a first novel)…Ferber’s protagonist muses thusly:

    “Some day the marriageable age for women will be advanced from twenty to thirty, and the old maid line will be changed from thirty to forty. When that time comes there will be surprisingly few divorces. The husband of whom we dream at twenty is not at all the type of man who attracts us at thirty. The man I married at twenty was a brilliant, morbid, handsome, abnormal creature with magnificent eyes and very white teeth and no particular appetite at mealtime. The man whom I could care for at thirty would be the normal, safe and substantial sort who would come in at six o’clock, kiss me once, sniff the air twice and say: “Mm! What’s that smells so good, old girl? I’m as hungry as a bear. Trot it out. Where are the kids?””

    (Dawn’s desires at thirty should not be thought of as “settling”…the author makes her sexual desire for her older & more stable new love interest just about as clear as one could get away with in 1911 in a mainstream novel)

    The beneficial aspects of raising the “marriageable age” for women don’t seem to have transpired as projected, though…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @David Foster

      (Dawn’s desires at thirty should not be thought of as “settling”…the author makes her sexual desire for her older & more stable new love interest just about as clear as one could get away with in 1911 in a mainstream novel)

      That’s a very interesting excerpt! I have been reading about how female attraction triggers change as women mature, and they become less impulsive. An alternative view to the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit.

  • Ramble

    I question the usefulness of this maxim as well. If a 24 yo man pairs up with a 19 yo woman, it’s all good to me, but an 80 yo man with a 47 yo woman?

    I am going to assume, with great confidence, that when this adage was coined they were not thinking of 80 year old men.

  • J

    Most in the manosphere would not say that they want submissive women.

    I would question that. There is a sizable number of men who advocate anything from “deference” to women giving up their careers and autonomy to women giving the vote and drivers’ licenses.

    They want women who are pleasant, loyal and who want to fuck them silly on a regular basis. It just so happens that they’ve noticed that this result comes more often if they assume a dominant position and demand submissiveness. In other words, the women like them better if they expect the women to be somewhat submissive. If you happen to still be all those things with your husband despite him not exerting any level of dominance whatsoever, then great for you.

    LOL. Well, despite the fact that there are probably a few guys here who, I would, assume regard me as an old battle axe, DH would say that I am “pleasant (enough–he likes a little feistiness), loyal (to a fault–as is he)and want to fuck him silly on a regular basis (as long as both our aged knees hold out)”. While our relationship is fairly egaliatarian, I have repeatedly described my husband as a socially dominant individual who exerts his dominance over the business world in such a way as it produces resources for our family. While I certainly do respect and appreciate his ability to do that, I wouldn’t say that he dominates me. In fact, I’d say the respect is mutual. It’s damn near ideal IMO, so yeah, great for me. And it appears to be pretty great for him too.

    It’s possible be generous and loving to a man without being submissive. No one who knows me IRL would call me submissive, but nearly everyone I know views me as kind and loving to those who deserve it.

  • Ramble

    I’d settle for them even being shown on television in the first place and not be disabled, criminal, evil, abusive etc.

    Actually, quite a few men in Hollywood are less than tall. However, it is not always easy to notice because they are rarely paired with taller men or taller girls.

    In fact, it is somewhat ironic that as much as girls drive pop culture and as much as they desire taller men (say, 6′ 4″ to put a number on it) you do not see that many 6’4″ leading men. Tom Selleck, Liam Neeson, a few others, but not many.

  • Ramble

    To all the females who commented on not being able to be attracted to an older man when you were say, 18-22 (I believe PVW, Madison and a few others said this):

    A friend of mine, when she was 19, had a stint where she not going to college…she sorta took a year off. Well, during that time she started dating a guy that was older than she was (I don’t remember how much, but definitely older). He was well out of college and had a steady, professional job and since she was not going to college and did not have a “real” job (part time work), she basically ended up “playing housewife” (her words, not mine)…well, she loved it.

    She said that she had no interest in that sort of thing until she experienced it. She said that the lack of stress from school and work was amazing. There were other benefits as well (he was nice, her doting on him made him even more attentive and appreciative, etc.). Ultimately, it did not last. They weren’t really right for one another, but it changed her attitude about certain things.

  • Ramble

    And look, once we got to see how talented LD was with her work on Girls, I don’t think a single woman has made an unkind remark about her (LD) looks. I don’t think the same has been true of the men regarding her appearance!

    Jackie, you said more here than you probably realize. The part about girls being more critical of her looks before they realized that they liked her is really interesting.

  • deti

    “I am not running anyone except Ron Perelman down, whom I consider to be a Bad Man. Yes, he is physically repulsive, but it’s so much more than that!”

    Thanks for clearing that up. It was not clear to me from your comments.

    “That’s not true. I used the word boor to describe him as a “rude, ill-mannered person.””

    “Again, this clears it up for me.

    RP is fat, ugly and boorish. I suspect he was always this way. He has purchased various wives but money can’t buy love (or tingle).”

    This I agree with, if you’re limiting your comments to Ron Perelman.

  • Ramble

    If a woman or man doesn’t want to gross out their spouse, they just have to maintain their health. Men demand it all the time

    Show me. Seriously, show me an example of this in TV or movies from the last 25 years where a man demands from his gf/wife that she lose weight and he is NOT shown to be an ass.

    I am not talking about a couple that feels like they need to lose weight after the holidays and decide to join a gym together, but where a man “demands” that she not gross him out.

  • Joe

    @J

    There is a sizable number of men who advocate anything from “deference” to women giving up their careers and autonomy to women giving the vote and drivers’ licenses.

    I question that!

    I’m not sure who you’re hanging out with, but that’s something I’ve never heard in a long lifetime of listening. Even in locker rooms and/or bars.

    I might say something like “I’m tired of seeing only female judges, DAs, law officers and special agents on TV while the men are all klowns, klones and sidekicks.” but I would only say that as I joke. I still watch Castle.

  • Ramble

    There is a sizable number of men who advocate anything from “deference” to women giving up their careers and autonomy to women giving the vote and drivers’ licenses.

    J, I am not arguing with you. Nor am I defending the manosphere. However, castigating the manosphere by pointing out that there are men (in the manosphere) who feel that women should not be allowed to drive is a little like saying the Democratic party is complete horseshit because there were plenty of liberals on popular blogs who would compare Bush to Hitler or, sometimes (and this was my favorite) a monkey.

  • Ramble

    @Passer_By

    Very good comments at 152 and 155.

  • J

    I am going to assume, with great confidence, that when this adage was coined they were not thinking of 80 year old men.

    LOL. I can think of a number of guys who you should share that thought with.
    Srsly, on the blogs were the adage gets a lot of credence, there are older guys who think that they can continue to be attractive to very young women into their 60s as long as they work out. It’s a pipe dream.

  • Bully

    @madisonkc

    “I don’t understand the whole waiting until a man is financially stable before entering relationships. To me, it seems like the best route would be looking for men who are very ambitious and goal-oriented, being with him, and then developing together through age and experience.”

    In a perfect world, this would be the case, but my experience in my mid 20s is that women your age are not frequently selecting for this. It’s a very mature observation you have. They should. But they’re not.

    Men will ideally continue to grow and appreciate regardless of female attention or lack thereof. A mid 30s woman approaching a successful mid 30s man is essentially asking to reap the benefits of stock she did not invest in when it was low. The world just doesn’t work like that.

  • J

    It’s a matter of degree, Ramble. At least in my perception, there’s a lot more tolernce for fringe opinion in the’sphere than there is in the Democratic party. There’s one whole blog in which the total slant is a sort of Christian submissiveness that attracts as it’s only female commenters women from other Christian blogs who argue amongst themselves as to who is the best at being submissive. All the more mainstream women (and men!) have left. Another male blogger recently wrote that he wanted to take a scalpel to the faces of women who complain about sexual dry spells. He garnered over 150 assenting commenters. While I recognize his pain, I also recognize that similar comments IRL will get you committed.

    I hate ditch on you, but I have to get a kid to the eye doctor’s. More later….

  • Passer_By

    Thank you, ramble.

    @J
    “Another male blogger recently wrote that he wanted to take a scalpel to the faces of women who complain about sexual dry spells.”

    It’s called hyperbole.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Another male blogger recently wrote that he wanted to take a scalpel to the faces of women who complain about sexual dry spells.”

      It’s called hyperbole.

      I think it’s called the precursor to going Postal.

  • Feelist

    ”LOL. I can think of a number of guys who you should share that thought with.
    Srsly, on the blogs were the adage gets a lot of credence, there are older guys who think that they can continue to be attractive to very young women into their 60s as long as they work out. It’s a pipe dream.”

    Like travelling to the moon is?

    My grandfather was in the army with this one guy who isn’t even all that great-looking. He has a beer belly, his hair is all white, he’s not packing Brad Pitt chiseled looks and he works as a carpenter.

    Every night. He’s with very hot 18-35 year old women. He’s not buying them gifts or taking them to expensive places. Its usually the other way around. Young, attractive women are always asking him out, paying for his dinner and for the other stuff he has.

    You think he was hot when young? nah. He was skinny as hell. Had one ear bigger than the other. But he has some 20 kids spread around the world and he never payed child-support.

    He probably has that magnetism that some men are born with. He doesn’t even use Game. And I assume that after a lifetime of sexually activity(began at age 11 with two girls 5 years older than him) he’s probably far better in the sack than most young, hot guys.

    I used to work for this guy who lives down my street. He’s 5’4”, bald, and 70’s. He’s dating women in their early 40’s. All of them hot. Last week he was with a late 30’s hot Japanese woman.

    Men can actually pull much younger and hotter women if they take care of themselves, have something women want(high status, charm, charisma, sexual experience etc etc), and if they don’t become emotionally attached to someone. These guys never dated a woman their own age or older.

    As for the girls here saying they’d never date older guys because of this and that. I don’t see that happening much in my college. Most of the girls are with guys who are much older than their male classmates. 18 year old girls dating 25 year old guys. 22 year old girls with 29 year old guys.

    Though, there are some guys that take it overboard. I was having a pleasant conversation with this one foreign student, there was some flirting happening between us, when this dude in his 70’s stands there looking at me talking to the girl(creepy as hell) and when I went to my seat the guy goes up to her, sits next to her and starts chatting her up.

    Really?

  • Kathy

    Get a grip Deti. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

    @ Hope

    “Ah, maybe that is because I tend to not over-exaggerate the effects of something, the way certain folks in the manosphere shriek every time a woman says something remotely “bad” about any man.

    There are some parts of the Web that exist which have some very unsavory characters. They do not all exist for legitimate reasons. The manosphere might have started out with good gripes, but Susan isn’t the “enemy #1″ here. If they think she is, they’re delusional.”

    Well said Hope.

    In any event I can’t count the number of times on a certain so-called Christian man’s blog, where many of the male commenters said revolting things about women and their age and appearance and it went unchallenged by the blog host..

    One commenter even gloating about cheating on his SO with other women from time to time. .. Christian blog hosts’s response..? Crickets chirping.

    The hypocrisy emanating from the manosphere is breathtaking.

    My husband (like Hope’s) told me stop reading a certain manosphere blog because of the nasty and vile things said there.

    I will ask the same question Jackie has asked.

    What are you doing here Deti?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Even men who meet this floor still often cannot find women who want to marry them because, remember, most women don’t want equals, they want to marry “up.”

      Yes, the stakes keep getting higher and higher, and the numbers more and more disadvantageous to women. However, it has been noted that among those with post-secondary education, assortative mating is now the norm. For example, MD/MD, JD/JD, MBA/MBA etc. It makes sense, as many young people are in these programs just at the time when they’re thinking about marriage.

      An interesting look at hypergamy in marriage markets:

      Genes, Legitimacy and Hypergamy: Another Look at the Economics of Marriage
      Gilles Saint-Paul
      September 2009

      Summary and conclusion

      By bringing fathers into the family, marriage allows to increase parental investment in children. But, for this to be credibly operational, monogamy must be enforced. As a result, women lose the opportunity of choosing more attractive mates.

      Most of the results derive from this trade-off. Hypergamy arises from the fact that women must be compensated for the utility loss associated with the foregone mating opportunities. Assortative mating arises even though there are no complementarities between the skills of the two members of the couple, due to the public good aspect of children’s human capital, which generates increasing returns to skills in the household.

      The institution of marriage reduces the genetic quality of o

  • deti

    Kathy:

    “What are you doing here Deti?”

    Commenting about things I think are important. Learning. Talking. Getting it right most of the time, wrong a few times.

    If Susan doesn’t want me around, she can ban me.

    Really, Kathy, did you come here just to demand explanations of me which you have no right to demand in the first place, or are you here to continue your vendetta against that certain Christian blogger who repeatedly called you out on your silly claims and finally had had enough of you?

  • Bully

    If women, as an evolutionary rule, did not mate with older men with status and resources, and stuck to hard and fast age limits as women have described in this thread, then the drive of men to secure such resources beyond the minimum amount to attain a wife in their physical attractiveness bracket would have been bred out long ago.

  • Bully

    Sorry, I meant to show cute ‘evopsych’ and ‘/evopsych’ tags there but the blog platform stripped them out. D’oh.

  • Feelist

    Kathy,

    Yeah, that is one side of the mansphere that seems a bit whacky to me(like those desktop PUA’s that pick-up 9’s and10’s every night without leaving their chairs). I’ve visited one or two of the most popular man-blogs and I quickly left after seeing a bunch of guys who claimed to be in their 80’s brag about moving to the phillipines, Mexico, and the rural areas of China for ”real women.”

    They were also pretty happy at being offered sex by hot women in their 20’s. Sure, now try having that happen in Europe or in the states. Those guys exaggerate everything.

  • JP

    @J:

    “@JP

    On the other hand, self hugging one’s values is common to all universally reinforcing stimuli. Human beings are naturally motivated to assert their values; to think their values are best; and to be intolerant of people with opposite values.

    Interesting link. Is self-hugging a form of solipsism?”

    I don’t really even know what people here mean when they speak about female solipsism.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      I don’t really even know what people here mean when they speak about female solipsism.

      That gave me a big laugh! You don’t even want to know. Shortcut: Women are emotional.

  • Bully

    @Susan:

    In terms of their dating value as a person or even their sexual attractiveness, 25 is hardly expired.

    But if a man is looking specifically to raise children, especially in this hellacious legal client insofar as men are concerned, he’s going to have to quite rigorously suss out his SO’s history, compatibility, and character, and if you’re starting with a woman that is already 25, by the time they’re ready to have that kid they’re already cutting it awfully close to the fertility decline.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      if you’re starting with a woman that is already 25, by the time they’re ready to have that kid they’re already cutting it awfully close to the fertility decline.

      The first decline is at 27, and it’s quite gradual. I think most women don’t struggle with fertility before their mid to late 30s. Of course, it’s a matter of preference – I have no objection to a man’s wanting to select a woman with a longer timeframe of fertility.

  • Bully

    *climate. Autocorrect is killing me today.

  • Tom

    Not all men in their 50`s have lost strength or stamina. Not all of them need the little blue pill. Sexually I have lost nada since my twenties and I can still bench 300 pounds. I have 11% body fat and most people I meet think Im in my early 40`s. My family lives into their 90`s. My fiances family lives into their mid 70`s. We are 15 years different in age. Pretty good match,I`d say.
    I was blessed with a slow aging body.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I was blessed with a slow aging body.

      LMAO

  • INTJ

    @ deti

    Ron Perelaman is gross and there’s nothing wrong about stating that.

  • Ramble

    Srsly, on the blogs were the adage gets a lot of credence, there are older guys who think that they can continue to be attractive to very young women into their 60s as long as they work out.

    Well, if you are saying that some men are delusional, then you will get no argument from me.

  • Just a thought

    Susan Walsh, you have to see this!!!
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/11/24/war-on-men/

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Just a thought

      Thanks for the link, that’s a very interesting article – on Slate Hannah Rosin has already “fought back.” I might need to get my fingers in that pie tomorrow. :)

  • Ramble

    It’s a matter of degree, Ramble. At least in my perception, there’s a lot more tolernce for fringe opinion in the’sphere than there is in the Democratic party.

    J, you are absolutely right. However, there is one huge difference between the two. Liberalism has both fringe and mainstream outlets. So, if you lean left you are likely to focus more of your liberal attention on things like the Democratic Party or, say, the Daily Kos or the Daily Show for that matter. But, if you are more radical, or “pure”, you will focus mroe of your attention on more Marxist websites and ‘Zines, like Pandagon or Mother Jones.

    But, the Manosphere does not have any mainstream outlets (things like Maxim and FHM most definitely do not count). Whereas toxic garbage like Jezebel gets corporate funding, a (toxic) writer like Roissy never would…even though he is a much better writer than anyone on Jezebel.

    So, at least for the time being, the ‘Sphere is going to continue to be marginalized and so, therefore, you are going to get a somewhat poor signal-to-noise ratio.

  • Ramble

    I never thought I’d be happy to link to Rollo, but that post on desire is excellent.

    Rollo is a smart guy. I don’t read his blog but he can definitely put 2 + 2 together. Unfortunately, I am not sure how many women he has being able to trust in his life.

  • Passer_By

    @Susan

    “I think it’s called the precursor to going Postal.”

    LOL. Ok, maybe that too.

  • Cooper

    Just a thought, Susan

    Re: Fox news, War on Men

    Ever since one of the guys linked to it a few days ago, it has remained on an open tab. (I tend to do that on my phone rather than setting a bookmark)

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “That gave me a big laugh! You don’t even want to know. Shortcut: Women are emotional.”

    Ha ha! ;) The truth came out on the other thread: Men are the real emotional ones! Even though they are cast as the “rational, thinking” type in so many spheres.

    (Which is why I found the blog name “Rational Male” to be quite interesting. If a quality is intrinsic, why would it ever need to be announced? I mean, how do you feel about a dealership called “Honest Used Cars”? It actually has the opposite effect and I’m surprised no one else has pointed this out.)

  • Jackie

    @Just a Thought

    Hey JaT!
    How are you doing? Things any better since the last time you posted here? I hope so! Hang in there :-)

  • Tom

    there are older guys who think that they can continue to be attractive to very young women into their 60s as long as they work out.
    ________________
    Yeah, I`d say that is delusional. Not sure why he`d even want to.

  • Tom

    I was blessed with a slow aging body.

    LMAO
    _____________
    I thought you might find that funny.

  • Kathy

    Ah, Deti, just pointing out your hypocrisy.

    And, you certainly got it wrong, about Susan, here. You took her innocuous comment out of context and used it as fodder for a personal rant against women. Trying to derail the thread, and telling Susan what she should or should not say on her own blog. Sigh..

    Jackie nails it when she says of you:

    “Yet, so many of your posts are crabbing about how bad things are. The only thing missing is yelling “GET OFF MAH LAWN!”

    And that’s too bad, because instead of making things better, it’s wallowing in the status quo.

    In other words: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?”

    I have to say, though, it really made me chuckle when you said to Hope,

    “Your solipsism is showing.”

    Visions of pots and kettles goin’ though my mind. ;)

  • Bully

    @Susan

    “Slow aging body” is kind of a silly way of putting it, but weight lifting /does/ increase testosterone which prevents age from showing. He’s not really off the mark.

  • J

    It’s called hyperbole.

    The first or second time, it’s hyperbole. When a post goes on and on in that vein for what be at least a few printed pages, it’s a bit worrisome.

    We all exaggerate. I’d hate to have a record at CPS of all the times I threatened to “kill” my kids or at the DA’s of my saying something like, “DH cheat? I’d kill him!” But the vividness of the imagery, the repetition of the theme, the length of the post, etc. do really seem worrisome to me. If a man said those things to my face IRL, I might be compassionate regarding his frustrations and obvious pain, but the imagery sends up some red flags to me. And that’s honest feedback.

  • J

    @Feelist

    Your Gramps, God love him, is an outlier, but, what the hell, good for him!

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    That’s a very interesting excerpt! I have been reading about how female attraction triggers change as women mature, and they become less impulsive. An alternative view to the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit.

    Huh? Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? That women’s preferences shift more towards dads than cads as they get older (and incidently less attractive)? What’s the difference between what you’ve been reading and the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      That women’s preferences shift more towards dads than cads as they get older (and incidently less attractive)? What’s the difference between what you’ve been reading and the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit?

      First, women’s taste in men doesn’t necessarily change when they hit 30. They may mature from liking bad boys in high school to selecting for character in college. So it is not tied into attractiveness, but rather the desire to find a long-term relationship.

      Second, the Beta Provider Gambit ascribes nefarious motives to the female. She’s been riding the alpha cock carousel, has racked up a high number of sexual partners, but now is going to find some sap who will pay her bills and not ask too many questions, and marry him pronto.

  • J

    So, at least for the time being, the ‘Sphere is going to continue to be marginalized and so, therefore, you are going to get a somewhat poor signal-to-noise ratio.

    That is a really brilliant observation, Ramble! I’m sure that it’s true. If the ‘sphere went mainstream, the crazier voices would be silenced to some degree. (Although I bet someone like Jaclyn Friedman gives Someone like Gloria Allred a pain in the ass that no amount of Advil can dull.) OTOH, the converse is also true. It’s hard to take the “sphere seriously because of all the anger and bitterness.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Susan…re the Edna Ferber book (Dawn O’Hara)…enjoyed it enough I was sorry to get to the end. Free on Kindle.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @david foster

      I’m going to download it right now! Thanks for the rec!

  • Maggie

    @Susan
    “Yes, the stakes keep getting higher and higher, and the numbers more and more disadvantageous to women. However, it has been noted that among those with post-secondary education, assortative mating is now the norm. For example, MD/MD, JD/JD, MBA/MBA etc.”

    Recently I watched the movie “While you were Sleeping”. It was made in 1995 and Sandra Bullock was a ticket collector engaged to an attorney. No one thought it was odd then but such a movie couldn’t be made today because the premise would be so absurd. Attorneys just don’t marry hs grads anymore.

  • Ramble

    @Just a thought

    Thanks for the link, that’s a very interesting article – on Slate Hannah Rosin has already “fought back.” I might need to get my fingers in that pie tomorrow.

    There is an accompanying video of an interview with the author here: http://video.foxnews.com/v/1993123442001/is-it-war-on-men-or-are-women-just-not-women-anymore?intcmp=related

    Watch how the host ends the interview at the 7:50 mark, making sure to grab that moral high ground.

  • Ramble

    That is a really brilliant observation, Ramble!

    Flattery will get you everywhere.

    If the ‘sphere went mainstream, the crazier voices would be silenced to some degree.

    Right. Like with all other movements, the more radical and pure members would not get invitations to the expensive parties where they raise the money, but they would continue to be a source of new or novel ideas.

    It’s hard to take the “sphere seriously because of all the anger and bitterness.

    It is not an accident that the Queen Bees Mainstream Media ostracized them. They, in their collective hivemind, know what they are doing.

  • Ted D

    INTJ – “Huh? Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? That women’s preferences shift more towards dads than cads as they get older (and incidently less attractive)? What’s the difference between what you’ve been reading and the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit?”

    ROFL! I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed this. So, because a woman “matures” into wanting a beta provider, it is no longer considered “bait and switch”.

    How stupid of me! As long as it isn’t 100% intentional, I suppose we men are supposed to be OK with it… Good Lord I literally laughed out loud when I saw the original statement. Like somehow we men just missed the note that it is simply a matter of maturity. You can’t make shit like this up!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      As long as it isn’t 100% intentional, I suppose we men are supposed to be OK with it… Good Lord I literally laughed out loud when I saw the original statement. Like somehow we men just missed the note that it is simply a matter of maturity.

      No one is saying you have to be OK with it. It is what it is. You can sit it out and remain on the sidelines (though you didn’t).

      I don’t know why it’s surprising or objectionable that people’s tastes would mature as they aged. I’d like to think that men eventually grow out of their desire to date the stupid bleached blonde with the fake boobs and high pitched giggle. Because I knew that girl in high school, and all the boys wanted her badly.

  • Hope

    Overall, ths is really interesting information to ponder. I appreciate all the research and graphs as well as weighing the pros and cons. I have to say though that the last line of this post was my favorite. Regardless of your stance on this matter the last line is wisdom that’s pretty hard to ignore.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      I have to say though that the last line of this post was my favorite. Regardless of your stance on this matter the last line is wisdom that’s pretty hard to ignore.

      Thanks for leaving a comment! One thing I want to write about more is how women can be high quality as potential mates. We can have the best mating strategies in the world, but if the raw material is no good, neither will the end product be. This is true for men – it is essential to filter out poor prospects. But it’s also true of us – we need to consider what we bring to the table. I hear a lot of women say what they want or deserve (!!!) but not what makes them deserving.

  • Ramble

    I have a question, mainly for the girls, that is completely off topic:

    Let’s say you had a friend who was dating a great guy for a good while and found out that he just asked her to marry him and she accepted and she was really excited by it. Because she was a good friend you knew some details about her sex life, like that they used condoms as their protection. Let’s say that you also knew that they were planning on being engaged for something like 12-18 months before the actual wedding.

    Now, here’s the question: You just found out that she is pregnant with his baby and she is due about 9 months after he proposed…basically, they started fucking like bunnies, without protection, right after he proposed.

    What would you think of her? Would you, if in her situation, want to speed up the wedding date or just say, “fuck it, we are definitely getting married, we will just wait until after the baby”?

  • Passer_By

    Moving away from Deti’s rant and back to the topic discussed earlier in the thread. I’ll take at face value what you all say that you are not at all attracted to men 15 to 20 years older (although part of me wonders if this is one of those cases where we should watch they do rather than listen to what they say). However there is a not insignificant (yeah, yeah, double negative, deal with it) minority of women are strongly attracted to any reasonably well preserved older men who hold positions of even modest perceived power. Maybe I was just oblivious, but when I was married in my late twenties, I don’t recall receiving unsolicited adoring attention from women in their early twenties. Likewise, when I was single in my ‘30s, I don’t recall fresh out of college women ever going gaga for me when I was fresh out of law school and gainfully employed. Not that women weren’t interested, but they tended to be very late ‘20s, early ‘30s types (and they weren’t coming around bringing me little treats and stuff). Now, I assure you that I am not “nature’s greatest miracle” like Tom, and I was much better looking and in better shape in my twenties and thirties than I was in my forties after I had to stop playing basketball 2 or 3 times a week. But when I got to my early to mid forties, and was married with two kids, suddenly I was getting a lot more attention from the just college graduated clerks in my law firm. Now, by then I had long since become a partner, so I had some perceived authority (though no actual authority over these women as they were not even in my department). But suddenly, they would be coming around asking my secretary about me and whether my marriage was solid (in one case), leaving little treats (nothing significant), repeatedly eye fucking me in the hallway (in the case of a different one), or, in another case, just repeatedly asking me if there is anything she could do for me (though not in my department) and getting all red and flustered and unable to keep eye contact when I spoke to her. Now, maybe they were just gold diggers, though some things are hard to fake. Not that I was dumb enough to pursue of any of this (other than perhaps a return eye fucking ;)). Alas, that period of a few years has passed.

    My theory is that in the EEA, if a male survived into his forties and had some authority, that would have been a proxy indicator for high genetic fitness (since most didn’t make it that far), and thereby triggered something subconscious in some women. There is a lot of socialization against those types of relationships, which may explain why a lot of women find the older guy unappealing, or maybe they just aren’t wired that way. But those women who do like the older guys with authority seem to really really like them. There must be a reason why reasonably fit college professors were getting laid like tile by their students before they finally had to prohibit it to appease the feminists.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      But those women who do like the older guys with authority seem to really really like them. There must be a reason why reasonably fit college professors were getting laid like tile by their students before they finally had to prohibit it to appease the feminists.

      I wasn’t kidding when I said that gray in the sideburns is sexy. There is something very sexy about a man in a position of authority, with gravitas. The time I find my husband most irresistible is when he is leaving for work in the morning, dressed like a British banker. Alas, the tingles are destined for the dustbin at that time of day…

      Women love men with mastery, and given that you were a partner, a high status position in society, my guess is that female fantasies about pinning you to the wall and exhausting you were occurring with rapid fire frequency. Young women know they have sexual power over unavailable middle-aged men, and they relish it. Affairs are common – the woman has little to lose if she’s young and single, provided she doesn’t fall for you.

  • Passer_By

    @INTJ, TED

    In Susan’s defense, usually the claim in the manosphere is that the carouselers “settle” for the beta to whom they aren’t attracted, since they can’t snag the more wild types for commitment, but are always secretly hoping to trade up from him. This suggests more of a switch in attraction triggers, not that that will make the guys that were overlooked feel any better with sloppy thirtieths.

    My personal theory is that as women get to their thirties, they are programmed to have their range of attraction naturally broaden, since they are nearing the end of their fertility and they can no longer attract the apex alpha of the tribe. This would explain why, back when their was assortative mating and most didn’t have much sex outside of wedlock, women appeared to have a sexual peak after 30. It may have just been that their naturally broadening field of attraction had broadened enough to make their husband more attractive.

  • apple

    Well, yeah, sex discrimination in the workplace means that it’s harder for women to be economically independent than men, which then leads to a status quo whereby men– as a group– earn significantly more than women. This skews society, and means that women are forced to search for a guy with some sort of economic security if they want to have a child.The older the guy is, the more likely it is that he’s economially secure.

    Every man should be aware, though, that if he does use his economic leverage to get a wife, that she is secretly lusting after the gardener, or her gym instructor, not him.

    That is why I would never recommend that a man search for a woman who is physically out of his league. ANd clearly a woman who is younger than him is going to be just that, unless he is EXTREMELY good looking. Otherwise, it’s only going to lead to heartbreak on all sides.

  • Sassy6519

    So……………………………………………………

    I went to my favorite bar over the weekend, and this guy started chatting me up. He was pretty good looking, blonde, and very tall (6’4-6’6). Imagine my surprise when he decided to tell me the following:

    “You are such a pretty colored girl. You’re probably one of the prettiest colored women I have ever met”.

    Seriously? Colored? Is this the 1940’s?

    I was polite to him after that, but I definitely tried to extricate myself out of the situation. He eventually invited me to see a comedy show with him, but I declined. It’s a shame. He was definitely my type, looks-wise.

    I’m starting to think that “the fates” love playing cruel, dating related jokes on me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Sassy

      “You are such a pretty colored girl. You’re probably one of the prettiest colored women I have ever met”.

      Seriously? Colored? Is this the 1940′s?

      That sounds like a scene from The Help. I have not even heard anyone use that term in decades. My family didn’t use it when I was growing up in the 60s. Perhaps he is not racist at all, but whoever taught him to speak is.

      Not to mention the fact that his compliment is backhanded and patronizing.

  • Escoffier

    Funny how “colored” marks you as KKK but “person of color” means you are more enlightened than Buddha.

    Ah, I miss Northern California …

  • Ted D

    Passer_by – “In Susan’s defense, usually the claim in the manosphere is that the carouselers “settle” for the beta to whom they aren’t attracted, since they can’t snag the more wild types for commitment, but are always secretly hoping to trade up from him. This suggests more of a switch in attraction triggers, not that that will make the guys that were overlooked feel any better with sloppy thirtieths.”

    I’m fully aware of what I’m sure many women see here as a major difference between an intentional trick played on a man by a woman and a natural progression of maturity. And my point is, from where I’m sitting, there is absolutely no difference between the two. Perception is reality, and my perception of a woman “changing” attraction triggers due to age is no different than my perception of a woman “settling” for a beta because she can no longer snag an alpha. In fact, the maturity angle strikes me as a great way for women to feel OK with this bait and switch. And hey, let’s toss in some man shaming based on HIS age and the fact that he still thinks much younger women are hot and it will be a perfect double score!

    This implies that it is fine and well for a woman to go for the bad boy because she is immature today, but 10 years from now she can be totally happy with her provider husband because she “matured”. But a guy in his 40’s shooting for a 22yo woman is a pervert, and let’s not even talk about those 50+ guys!

    Man, some days I think I might have sold myself short. Lucky for my wife she caught me before I had any clue about my MMV. She is 8 years my junior, so I think I did pretty good. But I bet I could have managed a decade, perhaps even a little more. ;-)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    Funny how “colored” marks you as KKK but “person of color” means you are more enlightened than Buddha.

    Ah, I miss Northern California …

    I’m a little confused. What do you mean by this?

  • Escoffier

    I mean that the two terms are less than a milimeter apart yet one signifies that you are Confederate plantation-owning Civil War general and the other means you are chair of the Department of Peace and Conflict Studies at Mills College. It just makes me laugh how these status markers work.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Escoffier

    I found his usage of the word surprising, to be honest. He looked like he was late 20s or very early 30s in age. I was surprised by the fact that he decided on that word choice.

    I didn’t think that he was in the KKK or anything. If he were, he probably wouldn’t have talked to me or hit on me whatsoever. From talking to him, I got the sense that he may have been raised in a less “racially tolerant” household. Either way, there was no way I was going to get involved with him after that.

  • Escoffier

    I’m sure it was surprising and I agree, it is totally out of date, I just think it’s funny how if you change the phraseology by less than 1% it’s totally cutting edge hip PC even though to untrained ears it sounds almost exactly the same.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I just think it’s funny how if you change the phraseology by less than 1% it’s totally cutting edge hip PC even though to untrained ears it sounds almost exactly the same.

      I’ve got a story for you. My brother, who is 53, is seriously considering going to rabbinical school. Rabbi Walsh – I love that. Anyway, he has been attending Open Houses for prospective students at some schools. He stayed with me recently while visiting Hebrew College here and he recounted this story. There were 40 applicants in attendance, and the weekend began with everyone introducing themselves. Each person was asked to share their name, where they are from, and what pronoun they wish to be addressed by. This last bit was to make the trans students in the group feel welcome. One person (Dan was not certain of the sex) said they wanted to be addressed by the pronoun irare (pronounced er-air). As in, “Does Sandy want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask irare?” Everyone in the group was expected to memorize these pronouns and use them throughout the three day program. My brother thought this was wonderful, and he could not understand my total disgust with this PC nonsense.

  • Ramble

    Every man should be aware, though, that if he does use his economic leverage to get a wife, that she is secretly lusting after the gardener, or her gym instructor, not him.

    Oh Noze!

  • Ramble

    “You are such a pretty colored girl. You’re probably one of the prettiest colored women I have ever met”.

    Seriously? Colored? Is this the 1940’s?

    Sassy, I am not sure if this is related, but I was really surprised when the phrase “people of color” became a politically correct phrasing because it reminded me so much of “colored people”. And, I have heard people on NPR, momentarily slip and start to say, “colored pe…people of color”.

    However, my completely uninformed theory is that he was an immigrant without much of an accent. I have known quite a few immigrants who only had mild accents but still got the ordering wrong from time to time.

  • Jackie

    @Esco, Sassy

    I am trying to imagine a situation where a racial qualifier in a compliment is somehow acceptable and am coming up goose egg.

    Imagine a black man saying to me, You are a pretty white girl. What about a white girl saying, You are such a hot black guy? Or, Dang, Esco is such a smoking hot Eskimo! (NOTE: I do not know Esco’s racial profile!)

    It seems almost fetishistic when race is part of a compliment. I don’t know how exactly, but it sure feels that way.

  • Ramble

    Escoffier, I did not read your comments before I posted, but, yeah, that is what I was trying to say.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Passer_By, that’s an interesting notion re: reasons for male attractiveness going into middle age. I think so many guys just totally give up on themselves physically around age 30-35; one of the major social benefits of widespread “game” exposure may be that some guys get a motivational kick to get in shape, learn how to dress in flattering and age-appropriate ways, etc.

    Re: profs. A little birdie told me that hot professors get hit on a lot by female students.

  • Jackie

    @Ramble (232)

    Hi Ramble!

    This won’t be a popular answer, but if I somehow found myself in that situation I would either see if I could quietly move up the ceremony at the earliest possible date.

    For me, if it was a big church wedding, see if you can have closest friends and family only, maybe on a weekday if nothing else is available. If I was secular, I would hope we could quietly go to the courthouse and have a small celebration with only closest friends and family afterwards.

    I realize this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I don’t understand why people will put off getting married because of a pregnancy. Like they will wait until they have the baby and then try to loose as much weight as they can to look like a million bucks when they actually do get married.

    To me, the wedding is not the important part. The *marriage* is the important part. Marriage is about creating a family. So to create a child, then a big marriage… that seems backwards to me. The values are being reversed.

    But I am super old-fashioned and more retro than most. Oh well! :)

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I am trying to imagine a situation where a racial qualifier in a compliment is somehow acceptable and am coming up goose egg.

    Believe it or not, it’s kind of a big thing in certain parts of Latin America. Can’t tell you how many people referred to me as “gringa” in a complimentary way when I studied in Mexico. When I came back, a Mexican restaurant called “Gringo’s” had opened in my town, and a friend said he refused to eat at a place with a derogatory term for white people in the name. I tried to explain that “gringo” is actually not an insult, but I guess it doesn’t translate well.

  • JP

    ““You are such a pretty colored girl. You’re probably one of the prettiest colored women I have ever met”.

    Seriously? Colored? Is this the 1940′s?”

    Was he a cast off from the plain folk?

    Rumspringa a little too much fun?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

    (Fortunately, my grandfather left the plain folk and went his own way. Unfortunately, he was an alcoholic who took pot shots at in-laws who tried to steel his beer.)

  • Jackie

    @BastiatBlogger

    “Re: profs. A little birdie told me that hot professors get hit on a lot by female students.”
    ===
    Ha ha! Now I am picturing the classroom scene out of Raiders of the Lost Ark. (Where the girl winks at him with a love note written on her lids!)

    Don’t break too many hearts, BB! ;-)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “The first decline is at 27, and it’s quite gradual. I think most women don’t struggle with fertility before their mid to late 30s.”

    Its not huge. The chance of Downs pre-27 is 1/1400. At 28 1/1000 (or 800) at 35 its 1/325. All of which are pretty minor.

    “I was blessed with a slow aging body.”

    Not you but this needs to be heard.

    Looking young does not prevent problems with fertility. Full stop.
    Stick two things together for 40 years then try and pull them apart. Doesn’t matter how young you look shit still happens.

  • Lokland

    @Ted D, INTJ

    “Huh? Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? That women’s preferences shift more towards dads than cads as they get older (and incidently less attractive)? What’s the difference between what you’ve been reading and the Beta Provider Bait and Switch Gambit?”

    ROFL! I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed this. So, because a woman “matures” into wanting a beta provider, it is no longer considered “bait and switch”.

    How stupid of me! As long as it isn’t 100% intentional, I suppose we men are supposed to be OK with it… Good Lord I literally laughed out loud when I saw ”

    +1.

    Sometimes I just want to shake my head at the moral equivalencies. My body really did change and want that so its okay.

    And I want a room full of cheerleaders. A-okay by above logic.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Sometimes I just want to shake my head at the moral equivalencies. My body really did change and want that so its okay.

      And I want a room full of cheerleaders. A-okay by above logic.

      Logic has nothing to do with it. If you want a room full of cheerleaders you are free to enter the market and try your hand. Women who want men with LTR qualities as they age may or may not be able to get them, depending on whether they are perceived as worthy by those men. It’s perfectly reasonable for those men to disqualify carouselers.

      For the record, all of this occurs in the context of both restricted and unrestricted populations. You guys are focusing solely on the unrestricteds. I think for a lot of women, it plays out in more innocuous ways. For example, my first bf was not very bright, but he was sure good lookin’. I didn’t make that mistake again. My second boyfriend was bright and hot but determined to have an acting career in LA. A real dreamer. (It worked out for him, too.) That wasn’t for me. And so on. By the time I met my husband, I saw an attractive guy with an artistic bent who was getting his MBA. Bingo.

      It’s like Goldilocks.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    ” I hear a lot of women say what they want or deserve (!!!) but not what makes them deserving.”

    Susan, I was just reading a book last night that talked about this! It asked you to imagine what a person meeting for you for the first time would notice and what they would think you would have to offer based off that initial 1st impression.

    (I wanted to say, No fair! My good character will show up once you get to know me! But the book was very true in pointing out that is how the world works. It also talked about the important of women being able to show devotion in a relationship. Not in a submissive or demeaning way at all. It was a very interesting read!)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Ramble & JP

    However, my completely uninformed theory is that he was an immigrant without much of an accent. I have known quite a few immigrants who only had mild accents but still got the ordering wrong from time to time.

    Was he a cast off from the plain folk?

    Rumspringa a little too much fun?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

    It’s certainly possible.

  • Ramble

    I realize this will be a very unpopular opinion, but I don’t understand why people will put off getting married because of a pregnancy.

    Actually, Jackie, they probably wouldn’t postpone the marriage date at all. They had planned on getting married about 18 months after the engagement and that would still be 9 months after the baby was born.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “Imagine a black man saying to me, You are a pretty white girl. What about a white girl saying, You are such a hot black guy? Or, Dang, Esco is such a smoking hot Eskimo! (NOTE: I do not know Esco’s racial profile!)”

    I call my wife many things involving asian/Chinese. She call me many names involving white/Canadian.

    My lil asian ball of fury…

  • Ramble

    I hear a lot of women say what they want or deserve (!!!) but not what makes them deserving.

    A-fucking-men.

    It is always interesting to see girls get that deer-caught-in-headlights look when, after hearing their checklist of things they want in a man, you ask them what they are bringing to the table. That is, what are you offering that a man would want, not the RomCom version of it.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I don’t know why it’s surprising or objectionable that people’s tastes would mature as they aged. I’d like to think that men eventually grow out of their desire to date the stupid bleached blonde with the fake boobs and high pitched giggle.”

    Unless of course you’re getting the shitty end of the stick. Which is where N count comes in.

    Wanting the bad boy and having the bad boy are very different. Of course ignoring all the non-bad boys till your 30 is also ridiculously stupid.

  • Lokland

    @Sassy, Susan others

    ““You are such a pretty colored girl. You’re probably one of the prettiest colored women I have ever met”.

    Seriously? Colored? Is this the 1940′s?”

    Weird ass neg. Next!

  • Ramble

    Jackie, no response to my comment at 142?

  • Jackie

    @Ramble

    In that particular case, I would still quietly take care of the marriage certificate ASAP. Then use the “official” wedding date to throw a big christening party instead.

    But that’s me. I would rather have the quietest, most subtle wedding before the child is born, than have a huge shindig wedding with a 9 month old in tow. I was brought old school in the old guard and I will never ever change. :)

  • Kendra

    I know this is a blog for college students but I found it helpful and interesting when I broke off my engagement to my fiance when I was 31, and was back in the dating game, which I hadn’t done since I was 25. It has changed so much! This December I am turning 33 and I find it depressing as hell that according to this blog, I’ve reached my peak and basically have nothing to offer to a quality guy who is looking to settle down. Since, hey! He can get a 25-year-old whose youth and beauty trump anything my 33-year-old self might have to offer.
    I have to say though, that I am in better physical shape than ever and I’m much more secure and confident than I was at 25. I guess that doesn’t really matter though, because I’m 33. All in all, I need to stop reading this blog because it’s depressing for someone my age who, according to you, seems to have missed the happily ever after boat; you offer no hope for my situation. Well, I’ll go play with ladies my own age now. So long and thanks for all the fish.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kendra

      Whoa, you need to think about this in context. You may have to compete with women who are 23 for men your own age, it’s true. But how about targeting guys who are 37-40?

      I’m not surprised you feel this way though. It’s understandable that female intrasexual competition will intensify if younger women put the older guys in play.

      I really didn’t mean to offend you, and wish you the best.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I’d like to think that men eventually grow out of their desire to date the stupid bleached blonde with the fake boobs and high pitched giggle. Because I knew that girl in high school, and all the boys wanted her badly.”

    *rubs hands with glee*

    NAMALT! Sorry Susan, I never pined away for the bleach blonde with the fake boobs (I don’t think I knew a single girl with fake boobs in high school and I graduated in 88…) and high pitched giggle. In fact my first blonde girl at all (other than a single date) is my current wife. My “crushes” we’re on a shy and artistic brunette, a fiery red with a serious tomboy streak, and from there my LTRs which were all brown to black hair, all real boobs. And none of them giggled, other than my ex-wife when she was drunk.

    You see, I and many men I know never went through that “bleach blonde” phase, so although I understand the stereotype you were shooting for, it is only because I’ve seen it in popular culture. I cannot relate personally because I didn’t live it. Now I will admit I found the bleach blonde to be hot in a “boner test” kind of way, but that means very little to most guys since lots of women pass that test.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    ““Does Sandy want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask irare?””

    How could you find this offensive?
    I wish I was there to take notes, then write a comedy script.

    I personally would have gone for something like Lok-ious-The-Magnificent.

    As in;

    “Does loo want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask Lok-ious-The-Magnificent.?”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Does loo want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask Lok-ious-The-Magnificent.?”

      Haha, that would be hilarious, but I daresay you would be labeled someone who is not respectful of our LGBT friends, and your application to be a spiritual leader would be rejected.

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier

    Blue Jeans = Horribly Degrading
    Jeans of Blue = Enlightened and Caring

    Got it?

  • Jackie

    @Ramble (#142)

    Oops! Just remembered it now! Sorry ’bout that, R. :oops:

    Ramble, I read it right before going to the gym to hit the treadmill. (They have tvs in front of all the treadmills and elliptical thingees.) I decided to count how many women were not skinny in the hour I was there:

    2 women, out of the dozens I saw in that hour, who were bigger (ie not skinny). Both were women of color and both were used in ads for cleaning products.

    I honestly don’t understand how you are concerned about Hollywood telling lies about this, seeing as 98% of what we see is wafer-thin actresses on screen. If someone is not skinny, they are basically being token-ized, and used as a “Very Special Lesson” character.

    I don’t see women who are not skinny being treated just as a normal person, though I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts on this.

    I mean, there were a bunch of us chicks, all on treadmills. The magazines there (Shape, etc) all are ABOUT getting skinny. We were all watching shows that featured skinny women in aspirational/heroine roles.

    Maybe it’s just my neurotic hangup about being told anything over 100lbs is “fat” but I don’t see anyone non-skinny even EXISTING on tv or in Hollywood, except as a punchline or jokey character.

    So how can there be a nefarious plot to brainwash us into thinking weight doesn’t matter, since I would bet serious $$ that is all every girl has EVER heard about?!

    Can you give concrete examples of what I’m missing? I mean, what character on shows do you think should get dumped for their weight?

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    “You see, I and many men I know never went through that “bleach blonde” phase, so although I understand the stereotype you were shooting for, it is only because I’ve seen it in popular culture.”

    +1.

    Brunette (at minimum) or bust.
    Not so much into tits either.

    As it turns out, most of the guys I know never pined for them as well.

  • Lokland

    “For the record, all of this occurs in the context of both restricted and unrestricted populations. You guys are focusing solely on the unrestricteds.”

    10 comments later.

    Ohh nvm, we agree.

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    I mean that the two terms are less than a milimeter apart yet one signifies that you are Confederate plantation-owning Civil War general and the other means you are chair of the Department of Peace and Conflict Studies at Mills College. It just makes me laugh how these status markers work.

    I doubt most people outside the East Bay would get that reference.

  • Jackie

    @Kendra

    Hey Kendra! Nice to meet you!

    I wouldn’t take all the stuff people say here as Gospel truth. Tons of people (including my own parents) marry in their 30s and have amazing relationships. I think you are far better off being single than divorced, since things didn’t work out with your XF.

    I hope you will consider sticking around, especially with a “Hitchhikers Guide to Galaxy” reference in there! :)

  • Ramble

    Kendra, there is no need to be a victim. Whether you were 33 or 53 or 73, you would still be offering whatever it is that you have to offer.

    You are, I am sure, well aware that tons of women between 30-40 find love and happiness, and Susan does not say otherwise.

    But, we do analyze the data and relay our real world experiences and try to understand it all the best we can. Attempting to maximize our chances at this or that does not imply that anything different than that is doomed for failure. Sure, you will got some comments here that are full of hate and bitterness, but Susan does a pretty good job at keeping the wolves at bay, especially when it involves a new commenter.

    So stick around and tell us about yourself. Some of the guys might act like assholes from time to time, but almost all of the girls are really nice.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Lokland

    Weird ass neg. Next!

    What he said is considered a neg?

    @ Susan Walsh

    Perhaps he is not racist at all, but whoever taught him to speak is.

    Not to mention the fact that his compliment is backhanded and patronizing.

    The funny thing is that I detected absolutely no malice in his words. The entire situation threw me for a loop.

    At one point, he stood over me and placed his hand on the small part of my back while whispering in my ear. He smelled nice, and I was sensually aroused, but my mind had checked out at that point.

    It’s a common occurrence for me to meet a man that I am attracted to who obliterates that attraction with the things that he says.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    ” As in, “Does Sandy want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask irare?”
    ===
    Ha ha ha! This sounds like some terrible virtual reality robot who has been programmed to speak by people who have never bothered to learn English! (I mean, I read it as asking Sandy directly, Does Sandy want a piece of pizza?)

    I would love to hear more about rabbinical school, though. That sounds like quite a life transition!

  • Lokland

    @Sassy

    “What he said is considered a neg?”

    It fits the frame of a neg perfectly.
    Complement that is a backhanded insult.

    Thats a pretty dress, did you buy it at Walmart. (bad example I know).
    Your pretty, for a woman of colour.

    Weird examples but the general frame is a back handed insult hidden within a complimentary frame.
    He might have done it on accident, zested up the basics for fun.

    Still a weird thing to say in pretty much any social interaction.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    “I don’t know why it’s surprising or objectionable that people’s tastes would mature as they aged.”

    Not to beat a dead horse, it’s just that her sexuality was most valued when she gave it to the bum, and now she wants the most valuable period of the responsible guy’s life.

    “I’d like to think that men eventually grow out of their desire to date the stupid bleached blonde with the fake boobs and high pitched giggle. Because I knew that girl in high school, and all the boys wanted her badly.”

    You had girls in your high school with breast implants? Again, this is deal: Women want to marriage material. Men want to be hot fuck material. Telling women they are hot fuck material but will never be marriage material is an insult to them. Telling men they will be relationship material (i.e., nice stable providers) after the young women are done giving the best of themselves to the hot fuck material is a grave insult. This is why it’s so infuriating for men when they are told they “will get the last laugh” and that it’s a complement to be the marriage material. Sure, it would be for the women, but it’s insulting to the men.

    Obviously, most people of both sexes would prefer to be both (marriage material and hot fuck material), but if they had to choose one, that’s how it would break down, IMO.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      Not to beat a dead horse, it’s just that her sexuality was most valued when she gave it to the bum, and now she wants the most valuable period of the responsible guy’s life.

      That assumes that all women or most women give their sexuality to bums, and I’ve just spent six months driving the final nail into that coffin. That’s part of the reason I have little patience for the meme. It describes a small minority of women.

      Obviously, most people of both sexes would prefer to be both (marriage material and hot fuck material), but if they had to choose one, that’s how it would break down, IMO.

      Of course, but I’m afraid you’re shooting the messenger. This idea that women seek different traits for LTRs is not exactly novel or new. That’s the whole reason for pair bonding – women’s attraction triggers shifted to reward dads instead of cads. And that’s an important point – the attraction to dad traits is real, not some form of giving up and settling for meh in a husband.

      Basically, you’re saying that all men want to be alpha – dadcads. Game promises that. I think that’s a great LTR strategy, but it’s a very difficult line to straddle. The women who want that edge of danger and risk are unlikely to be good matches for LTRs and the women who are good matches are unlikely to appreciate asshole game.

      In any case, once again we are talking about the wiring of sexuality and mating strategies.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Haha, that would be hilarious, but I daresay you would be labeled someone who is not respectful of our LGBT friends, and your application to be a spiritual leader would be rejected.”

    *Raises Eyebrow*

    I’m an active activist (double positives work in English right?) for LGBT rights.
    I’m also an activist for not being an easily offended lil prig who can’t be told their wrong/disliked/mocked.

  • Passer_By

    @sassy

    I would like to second the observation that you are a quite a lovely negro. ;)

  • jrd

    Jackie: “…I found the blog name “Rational Male” to be quite interesting. If a quality is intrinsic, why would it ever need to be announced…It actually has the opposite effect…”

    I always shake my head when I see or hear a woman identify herself as “independent”. I automatically make the assumption that all individuals who are adults are independent.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    Jackie, that’s one of my favorite movie scenes! Tee hee hee. If only I could pull that off…Indy is kind of a hard act to follow.

    Kendra: a month or two ago the men here hijacked yet another thread and started posting about fantasy hot girls; I think the average age of the women listed on the Aggregated Great Fap-Off Material List was probably in the 38-42 zone. The MILF thing is very real. We men probably tend to try to push the whole “sharp female depreciation curve” thing a bit more than we need to because it is one of the few enclaves of male power left in the SMP, so take it all with the proverbial grain of salt.

  • Ted D

    Passer_by @ 286 – this. Absolutely this! Well said sir, well said.

  • Jackie

    @jrd

    “I always shake my head when I see or hear a woman identify herself as “independent”. I automatically make the assumption that all individuals who are adults are independent.”
    ===
    Hey jrd!

    ITA (I Totally Agree)! In fact, I almost think that is a “tell” that they are surely the opposite. Example: “No drama”– those people tend to be MAJOR drama queens. :evil: Annoying!

    My own (awful) grandmother used to say she was “independent” ALL the time. In her case, it meant that we were to drive her everywhere (never had a drivers license), cook for her (she was far too busy for that) and cater to her every whim. IRL (In Real Life) she was more dependent than a parasite, I am sorry to say, but announced her independence at every opportunity!

  • Jackie

    PS: it is nice to meet you, jrd, and I hope you will stick around! :)

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    First, women’s taste in men doesn’t necessarily change when they hit 30. They may mature from liking bad boys in high school to selecting for character in college. So it is not tied into attractiveness, but rather the desire to find a long-term relationship.

    That would be fine. But more often than not, it appears that women take much longer than high school to mature, especially since today’s young women no longer have the guidance of their parents.

    Second, the Beta Provider Gambit ascribes nefarious motives to the female. She’s been riding the alpha cock carousel, has racked up a high number of sexual partners, but now is going to find some sap who will pay her bills and not ask too many questions, and marry him pronto.

    I’m sure Roissy throws in his usual hyperbole there. But leaving aside the manosphere hyperbole, the underlying reality is the same. Functionally speaking, that’s essentially what she does.

  • Jackie

    @Bastiat

    “Jackie, that’s one of my favorite movie scenes! Tee hee hee. If only I could pull that off…Indy is kind of a hard act to follow.”
    ===
    :-P
    Well, if you don’t want to take on the hat and bullwhip, you could be the Jason Bourne of HUS.
    “The Bastiat Supremacy”
    The Bastiat Ultimatum” ;)

  • INTJ

    @ Kendra

    So long and thanks for all the fish.

    I don’t care how old you’re! Anyone who references the Hitchhiker’s Guide to Galaxy gets an automatic bump in attractiveness. ;)

  • Passer_By

    @kendra

    “This December I am turning 33 and I find it depressing as hell that according to this blog, I’ve reached my peak and basically have nothing to offer to a quality guy who is looking to settle down. Since, hey! He can get a 25-year-old whose youth and beauty trump anything my 33-year-old self might have to offer.”

    Welcome to how most 19 and 20 year old guys felt when you were that age and on top of the world.

  • J

    Flattery will get you everywhere.

    Any time, babe. But srsly, I never give a compliment I don’t mean. It’s a part of my serious lack of social skills.

    Right. Like with all other movements, the more radical and pure members would not get invitations to the expensive parties where they raise the money, but they would continue to be a source of new or novel ideas.

    In the case of some the real fringe guys, I can’t imagine that they might be source of good ideas. I recall one guy at The Spearhead who was so crazed and embittered that even the most similarly crazed and embittered would tell him to STFU. There was one point that even I was tempted to say, “Hey, Welmer, I can sympathize with the raw deal you got in family court, but this guy makes me want to ensure that all children come from anonymous sperm donors in the future!” (Hyberbole! See, I do get it!)

    It is not an accident that the Queen Bees Mainstream Media ostracized them. They, in their collective hivemind, know what they are doing.

    You mean that MSM intentionally baits them into over-reacting?

  • SayWhaat

    @ INTJ:

    Did meet this girl during astronomy study group but turned out she had a boyfriend. Not taking any non-STEM classes this semester, so that cuts down on the interactions with girls.

    Not an excuse. Around this time last year, I was pulling 60-80 hour workweeks, but I still managed to carved out time for dates.

    Make a dating profile. Up your interactions with girls. Expand your social circle. Around here you have to earn the right to complain. ;)

  • Sassy6519

    @ Passer_By

    I would like to second the observation that you are a quite a lovely negro.

    I don’t want any of your sass Passer_By. ;)

  • J

    This December I am turning 33 and I find it depressing as hell that according to this blog, I’ve reached my peak and basically have nothing to offer to a quality guy who is looking to settle down.

    Don’t let them get you down. I was about your age when I first got married and the births of my sons bracketed my 40th birthday. And I would consider my husband to be an very high quality guy, not some dregs I had to “settle” for.

  • SayWhaat

    Welcome to how most 19 and 20 year old guys felt when you were that age and on top of the world.

    Passerby, having still been at the bottom of the pile at 19 and 20, go easy on her. You have no idea of her background. For all we know, she was misinformed and ignored at those “peak ages” as well.

    Just saying, don’t assume you know everything about everyone…

  • SayWhaat

    But srsly, I never give a compliment I don’t mean. It’s a part of my serious lack of social skills.

    Hey, you and me both. I remember one time I complimented a girl on her singing after a talent show and she later sent me an email gushing about how much that meant to her, because she knew I didn’t hand out compliments lightly.

  • Jackie

    @Ted D

    “Man, some days I think I might have sold myself short. Lucky for my wife she caught me before I had any clue about my MMV. She is 8 years my junior, so I think I did pretty good. But I bet I could have managed a decade, perhaps even a little more”
    =====
    Internet is hard to read tone, so if this is tongue-in-cheek and I missed it, woops!

    Otherwise: Ted, holy cow didn’t you just get married? And isn’t your wife like the love of your life?! The woman you’ve had most chemistry with EVER?

    Also, this leads to a creepy place: Would you be doing REALLY well if she was 20 years your junior? How about 25? 30? (See what I mean.)

    Maybe I’m a corny weirdo, but I’d like to think one’s “MMV” is so rare that is can only be converted into one currency: True love with the right person. ;)

  • Jackie

    “Passerby, having still been at the bottom of the pile at 19 and 20, go easy on her. You have no idea of her background. For all we know, she was misinformed and ignored at those “peak ages” as well.

    Just saying, don’t assume you know everything about everyone…”
    ====
    SW speaks the truth– that time in life was beyond terrible for me. Some of us are late bloomers. :)

  • J

    How stupid of me! As long as it isn’t 100% intentional, I suppose we men are supposed to be OK with it…

    I wouldn’t insist you “be OK with it,” but you should realize that there are plenty of guys who love the party girls until it’s time to get married and then go looking for a “good girl” and are then surprised that restricted girls don’t trust players.

  • Kendra

    Thanks for the kind words. I feel better and will take the age thing with a grain of salt. When I was 19-20 I never even thought about LTR’s even though I was in already in one; but at that age I had all the time in world to find ‘the one,’ so I didn’t worry about it. I guess you could say youth is wasted on the young, and I get that Susan is trying to wisen up the freshmen before it’s too late and the axe of turning 30 falls, thus complicating matters somewhat.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Kendra

      I’m so glad you returned to read all the comments to you! While it is true that I tend to address my posts to women in college and just after, I actually have a lot of female readers in the 25-35 bracket. I didn’t even think about how this post might make them feel – I’m sorry about that.

      Look, the median age at marriage for women with a degree is 30, and there is a very large population of women your age who are not partnered. In addition, you had a very serious relationship end after years of being together. That is not exactly rare either. You have a lot to offer, you just need to understand your target market (it’s not 25 year old men!).

      Finally, I would ignore any and all references to the axe falling, hitting the wall, etc. I know for a fact that I looked my best when I was around 35. That is when I turned the most heads and got the most offers, even though I was married then. I don’t care how many men tell me that’s impossible, I lived it.

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    “Did meet this girl during astronomy study group but turned out she had a boyfriend. Not taking any non-STEM classes this semester, so that cuts down on the interactions with girls.

    Not an excuse. Around this time last year, I was pulling 60-80 hour workweeks, but I still managed to carved out time for dates.”
    ====
    INTJ, what about this:

    Take one concrete action every day. It can be:
    *Say Hi to three new girls
    *Find one event where you can meet like-minded girls
    *Make a dating profile on OKC

    Just do something! It may not work but it can lead you to something else that will. In the words of Leonardo da Vinci:
    “I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do.

    Or, Churchill:
    “I never worry about action, but only about inaction”

    In other words, just do it! :)

  • J

    Each person was asked to share their name, where they are from, and what pronoun they wish to be addressed by. This last bit was to make the trans students in the group feel welcome. One person (Dan was not certain of the sex) said they wanted to be addressed by the pronoun irare (pronounced er-air). As in, “Does Sandy want a slice of pizza?” “I don’t know, why don’t you ask irare?” Everyone in the group was expected to memorize these pronouns and use them throughout the three day program. My brother thought this was wonderful, and he could not understand my total disgust with this PC nonsense.

    Reconstructionist?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Reconstructionist?

      LOL, I just learned that new word from him! The one in Philadelphia was definitely reconstructionist, yeah. But the one here is not – I just get the sense that for whatever reason a lot of trans people are looking to become rabbis. Not sure what that’s about.

  • Jackie

    Kendra, I’m glad you stuck around. :)

    Susan has a lot of good stuff in the archives– look for the stuff under Girl Game and there are tons of helpful articles. We’re all in this together. :)

  • Ramble

    I honestly don’t understand how you are concerned about Hollywood telling lies about this, seeing as 98% of what we see is wafer-thin actresses on screen.

    Again, it is not lies that I am concerned with, but the prevailing narrative. I’ll say more about this later.

    The magazines there (Shape, etc) all are ABOUT getting skinny.

    Well, 1., it is a gym and 2. Girls tend not to be too interested in magazines that DON’T have women looking “fabulous” in them. And then they complain about the unrealistic images they get “bombarded with. So, they get both fantasy and victimhood. Win-win.

    Can you give concrete examples of what I’m missing?

    Sure, let’s just take the most popular show from the 1990s, Friends.

    Chandler needs to defend himself to Monica because he, once, broke up with a girl because she gained weight. Also, because he was not attracted to Monica when she was heavier.

    Here is the scene:

    Monica: But you broke up with Jennifer when she got fat
    Chandler: Yeah, but I was 15
    M: Well, how much did she gain?
    C: 145 pounds!!! [imagine how much more interesting it would have been if he had said 20]
    M: Wow! In one year? Did she eat her whole family? (laughs) Still…
    C: I dont think of you as a thin, sexy woman
    M: [angered look]

    Even after she found out that he broke up with a girl that more than doubled her weight she still said, “Still”, like, that answer is still not good enough. When he tries to do the “right” thing by telling her that her weight does not matter to her (because that would be wrong), well, he still gets in trouble.

    Also, imagine how much more interesting that scene would have been if his gf had gained 15, or 20, pounds and that was the reason he stopped seeing her. Even though we are fatter than we have ever been, and there are tons and tons of people who are “mildly overweight” (you know, as in, “No, no, I don’t think she is fat, but, she could lose a few pounds), this is something that you never, ever see.

    Let me give you another example. In The Office, Pam sets up Michael on a blind date with her landlord Margaret, played by Brooke Dillman (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1006868/), at a local coffee shop. Initially, Michael thinks that he sees her and is really impressed (the beautiful girl he sees does not even come close to meeting the description he was given…he is an idiot). When he finally meets his blind date, Margaret, you can see that he is crestfallen. We then see that she is a normal woman with real feelings and that he is a superficial idiot.

    So, back to your original quote,

    98% of what we see is wafer-thin actresses on screen.

    This is what helps keep everything easy. (And, before I continue, let me say that I have no problem with sitcoms keeping things easy…they are fucking sitcoms). If some male character on the show needs to choose between 2 girls, like Ross had to or Jim on The Office did, then it is much easier if both girls are thin and beautiful.

    Now imagine if Jim’s 2 competing love interests on the show were not BOTH thin and beautiful. Let’s say that after Jim transferred to Stamford, CT, the only single girl his age at the office was a slightly heavier girl (definitely not fat, but, you know, she could lose a few pounds) Karen and that he started dating her. Karen was nice and smart and he was lonely.

    Now fast forward a season and you have all 3, Pam, Jim and Karen, working together at the Scranton office and Jim then decides that he really wants to be with Pam and one of the reasons why is that he likes her body better (not the only reason, Pam is still wonderful, but her better body is a significant factor) and so he dumps Karen.

    Well, a lot few girls in the audience would then have a crush on Jim Halpert.

    But, lucky for those girls, we never see this on TV or in popular movies. Idiots and creeps and assholes will dump girls that have gained weight, but not nice guys.

    Now, Lena Dunham (with some help from Mindy Kaling) may be putting an end to this.

    I saw a commercial for the Mindy project where some guy she knows says to her, “You could lose 20 pounds” and she is absolutely crushed. Now, I know that the line is not nice and the guy will definitely be portrayed as a tool, but with Dunhams lack of boundaries, it is probably a start.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    INTJ, talk to a new girl every day. It will help you get over Approach Anxiety, will get you used to talking to new girls, some of which you will probably associate with a little bit more and become friends with, possible LTRs, etc.

    Plus it’s a lot of fun and you get good stories.

    One spring day, my co-workers and I were coming back from lunch and we saw a pretty girl. We were about to take a parking spot, but she had pulled in before us.

    I had just broken up with my SO, and this group of 20-something guys acted like, well, high schoolers, when they saw me noticing this girl.

    hooters and hollers inside the car, some joshing, etc. Plus some resentment at losing the parking spot.

    So while they went back into the office, I plucked a flower, went up to the girl as she got out of her car. Honestly, I was a little afraid of the “creep” factor, but I did it anyways. Had to, ya know? It was a matter of honor now.

    She was like “whhhaaa?” for a second. I wore a lil’ smirk, held the flower in front of me, cocked my a head a bit, and said “just so you know, no hard feelings about the parking spot.”

    She laughed and we talked a bit about our departments. I didn’t want to take it any further than that, so I left and went back to work.

    But, WORTH IT.

  • Ramble

    This is why it’s so infuriating for men when they are told they “will get the last laugh” and that it’s a complement to be the marriage material. Sure, it would be for the women, but it’s insulting to the men.

    This is correct.

  • SayWhaat

    She laughed and we talked a bit about our departments. I didn’t want to take it any further than that, so I left and went back to work.

    But, WORTH IT.

    Haha! You seriously made her day. :)

  • Ramble

    In the case of some the real fringe guys, I can’t imagine that they might be source of good ideas.

    I didn’t that everyone out on the fringe is full of good ideas, but that the core of the mainstream is rarely where the good and interesting ideas come from.

    You mean that MSM intentionally baits them into over-reacting?

    No, more like how they frame Ron Paul to sound like he is some sort of radical (you see, he was both in favor of smaller government AND opposed the Iraq war…what a nutjob). If you make sure that a group never gets a Mainstream outlet, then they are guaranteed to be portrayed as fringe elements. They ostracize no differently than the Queen Bees in High School.

    Again, another example of a feminized society.

  • Jackie

    @ADBG

    Ha ha, INTJ can’t ignore us now! :D

    That is a cute story, too, ADBG. By the way, bet it made the girl’s day, too. ;) I remember when I have been the recipient of flowers, a kiss on the hand, or some small token of tribute from a guy on the street.

    It is a sweet gesture that will lift the spirits of both parties. I know our culture has tons of sex, but think both men and women long for a bit of romance, from time to time. :)

  • SayWhaat

    @ Ramble:

    I saw a commercial for the Mindy project where some guy she knows says to her, “You could lose 20 pounds” and she is absolutely crushed. Now, I know that the line is not nice and the guy will definitely be portrayed as a tool, but with Dunhams lack of boundaries, it is probably a start.

    I think you’re incorrect about that…I actually watch the Mindy Project (and BF likes it too!), and that scene had her irked, but not crushed. They do show her weight as a point of insecurity for the character, but other than that the show normalizes it. Same with Dunham, I think the main point she and Kaling are trying to convey is that “larger” women don’t define themselves by their dress size.

    There was even an NYTimes article on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/arts/television/women-on-tv-step-off-the-scale.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Ha, thanks Jackie and SW. Yeah, it will definitely help INTJ if he does the “talk to a girl every day” strategy, at least IMHO. ;)

    The worst thing that happened to me was…uhhh..well, I talked to a resident doctor in a coffee shop once, along with her friend. That conversation didn’t last long. Oh well.

    None of them were really bad.

    So I say go for it, INTJ :)

  • Ramble

    I think you’re incorrect about that…I actually watch the Mindy Project (and BF likes it too!), and that scene had her irked, but not crushed.

    Oh, OK. Thank you.

    That makes sense since I tend to exaggerate.

  • Yellow Mustard

    If the majority of college age women went for older guys out of college then who does that leave for the college guys?

    The last time I was attracted to a guy more than 3 years older than me was in high school.

  • Ramble

    Ha, thanks Jackie and SW. Yeah, it will definitely help INTJ if he does the “talk to a girl every day” strategy, at least IMHO

    I always tell scared guys to start talking to everyone (minus children). Start engaging men and women of all ages. So, engaging pretty girls will have little, or less, affect on you.

  • Ramble

    SayWhat, you described them as being “larger”, with quotes. What if you were forced to describe them without using quotes, what would you say.

    When I was in college and started working at this office, I described a female coworker to a female friend of mine as being “normal”. She said, “what do you mean, ‘Normal’?”

    Me: “You know. Normal.”
    Her: “What? Fat? Thin? What?”
    Me: well, she is not fat, but I wouldn’t call her thin either.
    Her: well, if she is not thin then she needs to lose weight.
    Me: So, Jennifer Lopez needs to lose weight? (this was back in college, and JLo was a star)
    Her [pause…pause…pause] Yes.
    Me: Really?!
    Her: [slightly looking away] Yes. Well, even if she doesn’t, she is not normal, she is “thick”.
    Me: Oh, ok.

    BTW, my friend was a little heavier.

  • Jackie

    @ADBG

    Cool! Sound the cheer, the back-up is here! ;)

    I would only add, don’t just talk to girls– practice talking to everyone you can! And, if you can, look for at least one good quality in each person you talk to.

    If you are a weirdo like me, you can make it a game and give yourself points. (1 pt = convo, 1 pt = finding a good quality, 1 pt = give a compliment. 10 pts = you win!)

    Not sure if this is an example of girl game, but I have been working on accepting and being nice to people, including myself. The more I do this, the more people will want to be around you and the more you will like yourself.

    In the grocery store yesterday, in a 40 minute timeframe, I had 5 guys come up to me and start talking. One guy had remembered me from the voting line at the polling place three weeks ago; another guy supposedly had a convo with me in the summer about vacations (?!). Two guys behind the deli counter gave me free food! Awesome!

    In the words my mother used to tell me: Whatever you focus on, you will get more of. :)

  • SayWhaat

    SayWhat, you described them as being “larger”, with quotes. What if you were forced to describe them without using quotes, what would you say.

    Zaftig.

  • Jackie

    Is “Yellow Mustard” Plain Jane?

    (YM, apologies if I am mistaken!)

  • SayWhaat

    In the grocery store yesterday, in a 40 minute timeframe, I had 5 guys come up to me and start talking. One guy had remembered me from the voting line at the polling place three weeks ago; another guy supposedly had a convo with me in the summer about vacations (?!). Two guys behind the deli counter gave me free food! Awesome!

    Girl, what kinda dress were you wearing?? ;)

  • Ramble

    It is a sweet gesture that will lift the spirits of both parties.

    Uh, Jackie, tons of guys go whiteknighting thinking that this is the path to success and then become crestfallen when they see the girl with the guy in that shitty band.

    Lots and lots of times it only lifts the spirits of the one party.

  • Passer_By

    @saywhaat

    “Passerby, having still been at the bottom of the pile at 19 and 20, go easy on her. You have no idea of her background. For all we know, she was misinformed and ignored at those “peak ages” as well.”

    Yeah, I know. I get that. I’m just pointing out the math, and undoubtedly beating a dead horse again. There are more or less equal numbers of both sexes. If a significant number of women around 20-25 are going for older men it stands to reason that many young men are keeping company with Rosy Palm and her five hairy friends (high school girls being off limits and all that). We just don’t see or hear about them because it is death as a young man to openly identify oneself as a sexual loser. I’m simply reacting to the unsupportable underlying message in the comment about how unfair it all is to women.

    I’m not claiming to be in that category or complaining. My problem was getting attached/obligated to a high school girlfriend who was probably too religious to be a reasonable match, but that’s a different story. I’m just empathetic with respect to those guys.

    As for you, I find it hard to believe that you were at the bottom of the pile with those luscious big brown south asian boobies and delectable chocolate nipples. Ok, now I’ve had too much wine. Go sex up your new boyfriend, you tantric goddess.

  • Ramble

    In the grocery store yesterday, in a 40 minute timeframe, I had 5 guys come up to me and start talking. One guy had remembered me from the voting line at the polling place three weeks ago; another guy supposedly had a convo with me in the summer about vacations (?!). Two guys behind the deli counter gave me free food! Awesome!

    How many of them did you ask out?

  • J

    @ Passer_By

    I would like to second the observation that you are a quite a lovely negro.

    I believe the term of art in this situation is “negress.”

    @Sassy

    You are very pretty!

    @Esco

    Astute observation regarding the phrase “person of color.” It always reminds of the abolition movement, BTW. The first person I ever heard use the phrase in a moder context was an AA university professor who spoke on diversity at a conference I attended. Ironically, he was lighter of a lighter complexion than I am.

    I wanted to joke that the color he was a person of appeared to be pink, but I didn’t think it would go over too well.

  • Ramble

    Zaftig?

    Are you being completely serious, or are you being a little silly?

  • SayWhaat

    LMAO ookay, things got weird. G’nite, y’all!

  • SayWhaat

    @ Ramble

    Serious wrt Kaling. Dunham I find a little less appealing, but that’s probably due to the fact that I’ve seen her naked more often than I would have liked…

  • Ramble

    I believe the term of art in this situation is “negress.”

    I swear I was going to say the same thing, but felt that the moment had passed.

  • Ramble

    So what would you call Lena? You wouldn’t call her fat would you.

    I read a NYT piece on her and it talked about her YouTube video she had of her in a bikini when she was 21 and described her “ample” thighs and “generous” belly.

    In a million years I never would have thought of those terms.

  • Jackie

    @SW

    Ha ha! I hadn’t washed my hair in two days! There are tons of girls who are “younger, hotter, tighter” than me. But when it comes to Jackies, like Highlander, there can only be one! 8-)

    PS: This was my dress:
    https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRj-gb17-OIR5cOeSOQ-UUMo1M7HdyFWLHHuVdmKzs_HA7xSpq

  • Passer_By

    @J

    “I believe the term of art in this situation is “negress.””

    I did NOT know that. I’ve learned something new and valuable.

    @saywhaat

    “LMAO ookay, things got weird.”

    Yyyyyyyyyeeeessss!!! Mission accomplished!

  • Jackie

    @Ramble

    I am seeing a very good guy from my church right now, so: None!

  • J

    I swear I was going to say the same thing, but felt that the moment had passed.

    LOL. I worried a bit that no one would be amused, but Passer_By’s fetishization of dark brown nipples let me know I was right on track.

  • Jackie

    @PasserBy

    :shock:

    Sir, you forget yourself!

  • HanSolo

    @Lokland

    Unless of course you’re getting the shitty end of the stick.

    Definitely say no to guys who have done lots of anal!!!! :D

  • Jackie

    @Ramble

    “Uh, Jackie, tons of guys go whiteknighting thinking that this is the path to success and then become crestfallen when they see the girl with the guy in that shitty band.

    Lots and lots of times it only lifts the spirits of the one party.”
    ====
    I guess the thing is, Ramble, I don’t expect either party to take anything from the encounter other than the giddiness of the moment. It’s a token of tribute. Nothing more, and nothing less.

  • Sassy6519

    This thread just took a major detour into a very strange place.

    I kind of like it.

  • J

    I did NOT know that. I’ve learned something new and valuable.

    Well, I do see it as my role here to help the young’uns. ;-)

    “Negress” sounds like “tigress.” It hits all the right stereotypical and sexually fetishistic notes simultaneously. I guarantee you that if you use it IRL you will either get laid….or slapped upside your head. Both would be valid responses.

  • Ramble

    Jackie, right. A tribute to her. Again, very often, it only lifts the spirit of the one person.

  • Jackie

    Sassy, don’t encourage him!!!

  • Yellow Mustard

    “As for you, I find it hard to believe that you were at the bottom of the pile with those luscious big brown south asian boobies and delectable chocolate nipples. Ok, now I’ve had too much wine. Go sex up your new boyfriend, you tantric goddess.”

    Exotification of the “other” is ok here? Can the subaltern speak?

    If so, I’ll be all over it.

  • INTJ

    @ Jackie, SayWhaat, ADBG

    Got it. I’ll make sure to talk to a few new girls every day. :)

    The worst thing that happened to me was…uhhh..well, I talked to a resident doctor in a coffee shop once, along with her friend. That conversation didn’t last long. Oh well.

    What did she take a scalpel to you or something? :D

  • INTJ

    @ Ramble

    I always tell scared guys to start talking to everyone (minus children). Start engaging men and women of all ages. So, engaging pretty girls will have little, or less, affect on you.

    I don’t have any fear. Some awkwardness, sure. But no fear. Engaging pretty girls is no different than engaging anyone else…

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “As for you, I find it hard to believe that you were at the bottom of the pile with those luscious big brown south asian boobies and delectable chocolate nipples. Ok, now I’ve had too much wine. Go sex up your new boyfriend, you tantric goddess.”

    Exotification of the “other” is ok? Is that what Edward said? The subaltern can’t speak?

    ;)

    Plus, unless she’s going topless no one can see those “big brown south asian boobies and delectable chocolate nipples”. So she’d be judged on her face. Many women’s faces don’t develop and look good til out of their teens. Plus, did she say her brown south asian boobies were “big”?

  • jrd

    Jackie: “it is nice to meet you, jrd”

    It’s nice to meet you.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Apple: “Every man should be aware, though, that if he does use his economic leverage to get a wife, that she is secretly lusting after the gardener, or her gym instructor, not him”

    Playne Jain again. Classic fearmongering.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    OTC just showed how out of it he is (never heard of Ed, Gayatri or subaltern studies) as well as betrayed his lack of a sense of humor.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – yeah it was a piss poor attempt at sarcasm. I was reacting to the idea that us old guys have delusions of wrangling up some super young virginal bride. But the real point is, I’m 42 and my wife is 8 years younger. Would it matter if it were 9? 10? More?! We are still talking about a 30-something woman. She would have to be 13 years my junior before we hit 29, which IMO is not only still reasonable, but honestly a goal I think I could have managed provided I was willing to make some compromises. Screw that though. I wasn’t looking at age at all. (Actually I wasn’t looking at all. Period. Which makes the timing rather comical to me…)

    All this talk of 10 years being too much is BS and only applies at the lower end. It’s creepy for a 30-something year old guy to be with a 19yo, but we are still talking about a 11-12 year difference, and like I said, I don’t think me with a 29yo would be outrageous or “icky”. It has far more to do with maturity than actual age, but I fear maturity is coming later in life these days.

  • Passer_By

    @spivak

    “Plus, unless she’s going topless no one can see those “big brown south asian boobies and delectable chocolate nipples”. ”

    Yeah, but there was a comment thread (or two) a while back here where one or more the Indian broads were joking about that, IIRC. Maybe it was you under another name (Plain jane?). So, what the heck. When in Rome . . . (besides that, they sound delicious).

  • Passer_By

    @spivak/jane (sp?)

    P.S. If you want to engage in some degrading “exotification” of my magnificent, circumcised, steely, vanilla cock, well, knock yourself out. I can handle it. No offense taken.

  • Bully

    The primary reason that women tend to date older, I feel, is that for a man to achieve mastery in a given skill or profession it takes 10,000 hours/5 years, as it has been said.

    Men and women leave college at 22-23, so that means the man will be 28 before he’s become truly proficient in a non-trivial skill learned there – not just competent, proficient. That seems to jive with my own experience. It took five years for me to claw up to my managerial position at work after college. It took five years of programming as a teenager before I could take freelance jobs on the open market. After three years of powerlifting training, I’m at an “intermediate” level per ExRx’s strength standards. These things take time. No one comes out right of the gate and just effortlessly picks up a skill and becomes talented in a matter of weeks or months – and FWIW, even with my tested ~145 IQ I wasn’t able to take many shortcuts. Women are attracted to mastery, but for men, a woman being a master at something is either neutral or a mild plus that won’t override more primal SMV factors. The upshot is women leave college at their peak SMV but men still have five more grueling years of proving themselves before they even approach theirs.

    Before men have a chance to develop these kinds of skills .. let’s face it, dating in college and especially high school is pretty much Darwinian and drives entirely towards the superficial. If high SMV women would shoulder some risk and invest in men that show promise, there would be a lot fewer men that felt they got shafted in the dating market for building up themselves in some meaningful way rather than mere superficial charm. I know it does happen from time to time, but if my college (a small Christian private university) was any indication, back in the early 2000s it wasn’t really happening.

    By the time a man that invests in himself truly comes into his own, he’ll be far separated from the hottest women he knew back in HS/college, while those that were either naturally endowed or chased flashy but ultimately superficial pursuits at the expense of long-term return got the pick of the litter.

    And I’m not trying to complain or whine, just trying to paint a realistic view of how ‘betas’ see the world in college and why they can become so bitter later in life.

  • szopen

    “Attorneys just don’t marry hs grads anymore.

    Seems the more equal society, the more self-sorted it becomes. BTW I was raised in a flat in a house typical for socialistic projects: several families from VERY different backgrounds. I don’t know if this was the policy or just the accident, but I enjoyed the diversity of people my children will never have (and, thanks God for that!). Ha, I got friends smugglers, drug-dealers, thiefs, future lawyers, future doctors, and everything in between :). The society self-sorted within a generation.

    As for ideal difference between male and female… Seven? It’s all you can get?

    What would you say for 15?

    We found that marrying women 14.6 years younger maximized men’s lifetime reproductive success—in other words, the number of offspring surviving to age 18.

    @Sassy
    So “colored” is an offensive word? Interesting. I will have to remember about it if I ever will go to states.

  • VD

    I should have added “in my opinion.” The men I regard as alpha are much different than many of the definitions I’ve seen. Tyrion has retained empathy in the face of horrific abuse and a kind of integrity. To me, that kind of strength and resilience is beyond impressive; seeing as denigrating into sociopathy is pretty much the Lannister default.

    Empathy is absolutely not alpha. Neither is integrity. Sociopathy, on the other hand, often is! What is the point of even attempting to communicate anything to anyone if you’re going to simply invent your own personal definitions to existing words that have already been well-defined?

    “Alpha” does not mean “whatever I happen to like”. Granted, it has a little more wiggle room than, say, “blue”, in that it is one of either two or six categories used to describe hundreds of million of men. I’m not criticizing your right to like whatever you like; if you want to fantasize about that little dwarf, you absolutely go right ahead with that. If you said. “I like Tyrion because he is empathetic, strong, and resilient”, no one could object. He’s a wonderful character, without question the best in the books until everything fell apart in A Dance with Dragons. I wish I could write a character half as memorable.

    Nevertheless, you might as reasonably have said that he is the tallest man on the show because the men you regard as tall are much different than many of the definitions you’ve seen.

  • szopen

    @Kendra
    Hi there! This blog is getting definetely better with more female commenters :)

    As for your comment, think about it that way: imagine you have male friend, who is 45 years old. He is still physically fit, he has good job and nice career. He hits on 20-22 y/o girls. He says he is now more mature, more responsible, and has more value than when he was 28.

    Would you agree that the chances he will succeed with them are slim, because, well, this does not matter what he thinks he is and indeed it does not matter whether he indeed is more valuable when he was 28, because he won’t get much chances to show that to girls in the range he desires? He could be angry after he would hear that, but then, wouldn’t be telling him to re-evaluate his value in the eyes of his “targets” be actually better for him? Maybe he should start going for hot 30-35 girls, right, or maybe even women closer to his age? Should he be angry if you would pointed that out for him?

    The same is here. I agree that many woman are of higher value at 33 than at 25 – they are more mature, more stable, have experience and everything. However, they also had to face the prejudices against 30 y/o and they HAVE to be aware that such prejudices exist, and that they may have no chance to show males who judge them prematurely, that they were wrong.

    BTW I had she-cousin which was 30 at the time I saw her first time and frankly, if I wouldn’t be married, I would go straight for her. Most of my friends lose their heads for her at the moment they saw her. I helped her with two dates, with two decent guys. She was polite to them, but feeling no spark, she continued to date. I’ve lost touch with her, but she found someone perfect just when she was at your age, I think. She’s married now (still childless though the last time i’ve heard from them; not that she worries about it, she always said that she values her career and having enjoyable private life more).

    Quite interesting thing is that when I saw the photo of her perfect guy, one more time I realised I have no idea what females consider “attractive” in males.

  • VD

    I’m sorry deti, but I really think you’ve gone off the rails here. If men see me as the enemy because I think Ron Perelman is gross in every way, including physically, they’ve got issues. To put it mildly.

    Deti is wrong. If men can’t handle the truth, then they will whine about the world like the Jezebelles do and merit being taken about as seriously. If Susan and other women don’t like old, bald, fat men, then they don’t like old, bald, fat men. Deal with it.

    Life is what it is. I used to look like a Hollywood rom-com villain, complete with the shades, rich daddy, and Porsche. Now I look in the mirror and see something out of a Lovecraft story staring back at me. It’s to the point that I half expect to hear the call of Y’ha-nthlei any day now. Guess what? Really hot 16 year olds aren’t throwing themselves at me anymore. That’s not Susan’s fault. It’s not anyone’s fault except Father Time.

    There is a sizable number of men who advocate anything from “deference” to women giving up their careers and autonomy to women giving the vote and drivers’ licenses.

    (raises hand) Some of us do value this little thing called “Western civilization”. Although I should probably point out that I don’t think anyone should be “licensed” to drive. Or to marry.

  • JP

    @VD: “(raises hand) Some of us do value this little thing called “Western civilization”. ”

    “Civilization
    The body of the people, now essentially urban in constitution, dissolves into formless mass. Megalopolis and Provinces. The Fourth Estate (“Masses”), inorganic, cosmopolitan…

    …2. Formation of Caesarism. Victory of force-politics over money. Increasing primitiveness of political forms. Inward decline of the nations into a formless population, and constitution thereof as an Imperium of gradually-increasing crudity of despotism”

    Scheduled for 2000-2200. A.D. Now C.E.

    C.E. being a distinct example of this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spengler's_civilization_model

  • Ted D

    Susan – “For the record, all of this occurs in the context of both restricted and unrestricted populations. You guys are focusing solely on the unrestricteds.”

    OK. For the sake of argument, can you explain to me what the difference here would be? An unrestricted woman would be sexing up cads/players, but a restricted would not, correct? You have claimed to be a restricted woman, but you have had your share of short term flings, alpha boyfriends, and at least one flyby from an Air Force pilot, right? (I probably have the details wrong here but…)

    So, you being restricted STILL have some historical pock marks, but you seem to be saying “if you guys would just lay off the real sluts, the rest of us women out here are just lovely.” Again, my perception of the situation is that the only difference between you and the “unrestricted” girls is your actual N. The behavior behind the scenes is very similar, just not the same volume that a really promiscuous girl would rack up.

    So can you please explain to me what the actual difference is between a restricted and an unrestricted woman OTHER than perhaps how high her N got? Because honestly, the behavior appears to be exactly the same to me, and perception seems to be the sticking point between men and women on this.

    I’m not picking on your here Susan, but you have been pretty honest about your past, and IMO it serves as a great example of my confusion: you claim to be restricted, yet you still have some “unrestricted” behavior in your past. If even restricted woman “dip their toes” into the unrestricted pool on occasion, then the terms are practically useless other than to predict someone’s general disposition. It does nothing in terms of explaining actual behavior. Or, as the ‘sphere likes to say: Ignore what a woman says and watch what she does. Can you set me straight here?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I have never said I am restricted by nature. I’ve said that when I was single I probably would have fallen in the middle somewhere. Obviously, as someone married for so long, the test doesn’t really make any sense for me now.

      In any case, my husband observed my unrestricted moments before we got together, and he had some of his own. It was not a big issue for us – clearly he is more like Tom than Abbot. :)

      My point is that sociosexuality is indeed on a spectrum, but the discussions here, such as the beta provider ones, tend to focus on the extremely unrestricted women, i.e. she rode the alpha cock carousel for 12 years and now that she’s about to become a crone she wants a guy with a good job to marry her because none of the guys she really wants will have her.

      I have no problem with men qualifying women for commitment in any way they see fit. But it really doesn’t make sense to complain that some women are unrestricted. If you don’t like that, ignore those women. My sense is that what men want is for the hottest, sexiest, most DTF women to have somehow waited patiently for them to come along and stake a claim. That’s a fairy tale.

  • Ted D

    @Kendra – Hiya! Glad you decided to stick around. Things can get a little tense here, but of all the places I virtually “hang out” online, this one is by far one of the most civil.

    My wife and I just got married this past August. We were both divorced, and at 32 she met me and things just clicked. That being said, I am 8 years older than her. Since you are in your early 30’s, you are in a decent place in terms of the range of ages you *could* consider for a mate. Obviously young 30’s, but older 20’s would be OK, and you should (if you haven’t already) seriously consider high 30’s early 40’s. In addition, you’ll find not only “never marrieds” in those age brackets, but divorced guys as well. Yeah, I agree that a divorced guy might not be an ideal bet, but as a formerly divorced and now remarried man, I’d at least say don’t discount a guy simply because he couldn’t make it work with some other woman. If nothing else, hanging out here has taught me that people are capable of doing the same thing with a different person and getting a completely different result. Put another way, two particular people may totally suck as husband and wife, yet they both may be terrific spouses to someone else. Might sound silly, but I really never put much thought into individual people throughout my life, and it’s taken me far longer than most to understand that although we are all human, we have as many or more differences between us than things we share in common, especially when it comes to personality and character.

    Anyway welcome. Hope you stick around. ;-)

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “My sense is that what men want is for the hottest, sexiest, most DTF women to have somehow waited patiently for them to come along and stake a claim. That’s a fairy tale.”

    No its not.
    Maybe if you can’t manage to keep a relationship together for more than a few years but it does happen. Its neither unreasonable nor unlikely.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I said DTF – the woman who is down to f*ck NOW. She’s not likely to save herself for a Ted until she’s 25. Obviously.

  • Jason773

    Cooper,

    What does this leave <25yo men?

    It’s all game (psychological traits) and physical stature (eating well and working out). A vast majority of college aged women (18-23yo) don’t give two shits about finding their future husband, and won’t even start to look at the ‘provider’ role until about 23yo. Not to say that these women don’t want to get married, it just hasn’t even crossed their mind seriously at that time point.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “My point is that sociosexuality is indeed on a spectrum, but the discussions here, such as the beta provider ones, tend to focus on the extremely unrestricted women, i.e. she rode the alpha cock carousel for 12 years and now that she’s about to become a crone she wants a guy with a good job to marry her because none of the guys she really wants will have her.”

    I think you may perceive it that way, but that isn’t where I am coming from. My point is, even a “restricted” woman can ride the “carousel” once or twice, and if the primary sticking point is riding at all, then unrestricted vs. restricted is literally just about N. Which is why I keep saying that N alone is useless, but how a woman got her N is not.

    IMO it doesn’t matter if you are restricted or unrestricted. Its more about exactly how you behaved, perhaps despite your socio-economic status. So for my part, I am NOT concentrating on ONLY the sluts with the majority of my comments. I’m talking about any woman that has behaved in a slutty manner at all, regardless of their actual inclinations. And I feel pretty confident that many of the other male regulars are coming from the same angle.

    Your accusations that we keep focusing on the worst females possible is untrue. It just seems that a large number of woman have behaved “unrestricted” at some point in their lives regardless of their actual nature, yet I know plenty of men that have never acted “unrestricted” either by choice or circumstances.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It just seems that a large number of woman have behaved “unrestricted” at some point in their lives regardless of their actual nature, yet I know plenty of men that have never acted “unrestricted” either by choice or circumstances.

      I think that many people of both sexes flirt with unrestricted behavior – that’s clear from the stats showing that half of all men and women who hook up are doing it to get a relationship.

      My guess is that there are unrestricted men who have not had the opportunity to indulge their true sexual preferences – they look restricted but they are not.

      It’s clear from your commentary that you want women to be very restricted, in behavior, attitude and desire. Most aren’t, that’s the reality.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    We seem to be on the same page wrt the mature man. At the same time, I think it’s folly to suggest that a man’s SMV peaks in his late 30s. The truth is, most women really don’t want to go more than 10 years older at the outside. So at 40, he is most likely to get interest from women 30 and older. There are exceptions of course, but it’s not realistic for most men to think they can pull much younger women for LTRs. (STRs are a different story, though the women the mature man wants can undoubtedly get ONSs with men at their physical peak of mid to late 20s.)

    IOW, if a man wants to marry and have a family with the hottest woman possible, he should act when he perceives that his MMV is highest, which may mean partnering with a woman who is 30 or more. He will ostensibly still be better off than if he had settled for a less attractive woman when he was younger.

    Still, you can’t blame a guy for trying, right? The 52 year old who wants a woman in her 20s should get out there and see what he’s got. He’ll figure out his real MMV/SMV soon enough.

  • Lokland

    @Ted D

    “I think you may perceive it that way, but that isn’t where I am coming from. My point is, even a “restricted” woman can ride the “carousel” once or twice, and if the primary sticking point is riding at all, then unrestricted vs. restricted is literally just about N”

    Ala Mega.

    45% of married woman have an N of 1 or 2 (including their husbands).
    9/20 women are extremely restricted.

    Susans point is actually irrelevant. A large cohort of women don’t have anything to do with the carousel.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “I said DTF – the woman who is down to f*ck NOW. She’s not likely to save herself for a Ted until she’s 25. Obviously.”

    Everyone is DTF-now under the right circumstances.

    See above stat.

    Most people are happy with their sex lives (in marriage).
    Theres no reason to suspect a woman who is a virgin at X point is an ice queen (30 maybe). Nor that those who are virgins/low N are not going to be DTF when in a relationship.

    PS. You left out the now. Not fair…

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “But the discussions here, such as the beta provider ones, tend to focus on the extremely unrestricted women, i.e. she rode the alpha cock carousel for 12 years and now that she’s about to become a crone she wants a guy with a good job to marry her because none of the guys she really wants will have her.”

    I agree that idea is overblown, but there is a underlying dose truth in there.

    It’s relative. If you’re a ‘1’ on 1-5 SS scale (as I was in high school), then a person who is a perfectly normal self-admitted 3 *seems* like they’re very promiscuous. (OTOH, plenty of people can think themselves “middle”, but have an N multiple times the median. Is it delusion?) The rest of the “carousel” stuff is just (silly) hyperbole. I doubt they’re really pining away for the raging sluts.

    “If you don’t like that, ignore those women”

    The problem is, if you’re a 1 out 5, then you’re ignoring nearly everyone, since it’s relative. A 5 looks the exact same as middling 3. Better to drop Disneyesque/churchy ideals of how attraction works, and up your SSI so that it matches reality.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Most aren’t, that’s the reality.”

    No but a very significant minority are. I wonder if the bias of your own past being ‘average’ is clouding your vision on reality?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . I wonder if the bias of your own past being ‘average’ is clouding your vision on reality?

      I do not think my past is average, and I didn’t say so. I have an N that is clearly above both the female mean and median. I said that I believe wrt sociosexuality, I fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.

  • INTJ

    @ Jason773

    It’s all game (psychological traits) and physical stature (eating well and working out). A vast majority of college aged women (18-23yo) don’t give two shits about finding their future husband, and won’t even start to look at the ‘provider’ role until about 23yo. Not to say that these women don’t want to get married, it just hasn’t even crossed their mind seriously at that time point.

    Problem there is that I’m looking for a woman interested in marriage…

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “My guess is that there are unrestricted men who have not had the opportunity to indulge their true sexual preferences – they look restricted but they are not”

    This is probably true. I was 1 as kid (yay church!), 2 as teen (yay college!), and more like a 3 now. It really can change over time. Perhaps I was a 3 all along. Maybe I’m a 5 and don’t know it yet.

    (Restricted/unrestricted is too binary, and forces us to only think about the extremes. I think we need better terms. My N is very low, so I personally think of myself on more on the restricted side.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      (Restricted/unrestricted is too binary, and forces us to only think about the extremes. I think we need better terms. My N is very low, so I personally think of myself on more on the restricted side.)

      Yes, it’s the same problem as the alpha/beta dichotomy. These terms are useful shorthand, but the reality is a spectrum with infinite increments. FWIW, I didn’t invent this terminology. It’s standard in the literature.

  • Ramble

    My sense is that what men want is for the hottest, sexiest, most DTF women to have somehow waited patiently for them to come along and stake a claim. That’s a fairy tale.

    Is it also a fairy tale for men to want girls who are really physically attractive that acted with modesty and a low N by the time they marry? Or is it the DTF, sex-kitten, she is going to explode all over my cock the second we meet even though she was a blushing virgin her entire life up to that point that is the fairy tale?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      The latter, and I’m afraid many men indulge this fantasy.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “It’s clear from your commentary that you want women to be very restricted, in behavior, attitude and desire. Most aren’t, that’s the reality.”

    Not exactly, but close: It *should* be clear from my commentary that I want EVERYONE to be more restricted, in behavior, attitude, and desire. Most aren’t, and I know that is the reality of today. Perhaps in years long gone there were just as many unrestricted folks as there are now, but social pressure kept their behavior in check. To me, that isn’t such a bad deal, but I’m sure the “unrestricted” would disagree. *shrug*

    Please stop painting me out to be a woman hater, you and I both know it isn’t true. I dislike promiscuity in men just as much as I dislike it in women. Thing is, I’m not interested in having sexual relationships with other men, so their sexuality isn’t as primary in my mind. Plus, since this is a blog for young women, I don’t see the point of highlighting what I see as bad male behavior. If you want I can do it, I bet it would be just as long and rant-like as the stuff I post about women.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Not exactly, but close: It *should* be clear from my commentary that I want EVERYONE to be more restricted, in behavior, attitude, and desire.

      OK, I accept that. My point is that if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. It is what it is. I’m not interested in trying to change society. I’m interested in confronting reality as it is today. You and I have been over this many times. I don’t find it useful to wring my hands, and I certainly don’t find it productive to complain about the nature of female sexuality.

  • Ted D

    Susan – OTC said – ““If you don’t like that, ignore those women”

    The problem is, if you’re a 1 out 5, then you’re ignoring nearly everyone, since it’s relative. A 5 looks the exact same as middling 3. Better to drop Disneyesque/churchy ideals of how attraction works, and up your SSI so that it matches reality.”

    This is exactly my view. I’m pretty much a 1 on a scale from 1 to 5 when it comes to restricted vs. unrestricted. But unlike most 1’s, my view is not primarily based on religious conviction, it is just how I see things. So, to you the ‘average’ woman with a few flings under her belt is normal, to me she might as well have an N of 20.

    From where I’m standing, one ONS is the same as 10, it is only a matter of actual N that changes.

  • Just1Z

    “If you want I can do it, I bet it would be just as long and rant-like as the stuff I post about women.”

    I believe you TedD

    FWIW

  • Ted D

    Just1Z – LOL I’m sure you do. Suffice it to say that all the fire and brimstone I spout here about promiscuous woman has been sprayed against men in other venues. I’ve told male friends to their face I thought they were sleazy whores, and they laugh, agree, and we go out for a beer. I tend to despise slutty behavior in anyone with the fire of a thousand suns.

    That being said, as far as sexual variances go, my attitude is generally: anything goes in a committed relationship as long as everyone consents. There is no particular act too sleazy for me to wrap my head around (not that I would personally do everything) and “no holds barred” in the bedroom between a couple.

    So unlike most very restricted people, I am in no way, shape, or form a sexual prude. I simply and strongly believe that the only place sex should be expressed is within the confines of a committed relationship of some sort. I won’t say marriage, because at this point I’m not 100% sure I know what marriage actually IS today.

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted: “It *should* be clear from my commentary that I want EVERYONE to be more restricted, in behavior, attitude, and desire.”

    Tilting at windmills, dude. The world is the way it is – not as you want it to be. You can’t make women more restricted.

  • Ted D

    OTC – “You can’t make women more restricted.”

    I disagree. It has worked in the past in the good old U.S. of A. All it takes is the right social pressure and no fear of PC police. Hell it still works very well in other parts of the world. Of course in those cases it is lopsided and unfair, which leads me to…

    For the record, I wouldn’t support anything that ONLY made women more restricted. I’m shooting for a more restricted society across the board. I mean, if we are going to talk about the way I think the world should be, lets start with cutting down the West’s sexuality by half as the first swing of the sword, then we can keep whittling it down to something more reasonable.

  • Lokland

    *Jumps around waving stats*
    *Look at me! Look at me!*
    *Continually ignored.*
    *Understands Mega Man now*

  • INTJ

    @ Lokland

    *Jumps around waving stats*
    *Look at me! Look at me!*
    *Continually ignored.*
    *Understands Mega Man now*

    ROFL.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – LOL. You get the “Ted D almost spit his coffee all over his desk” award for today. Nice work!

  • OffTheCuff

    Ted: “I disagree. It has worked in the past in the good old U.S. of A.”

    I meant you personally can’t. Not “women can’t be”.

    Ted: “All it takes is the right social pressure and no fear of PC police.”

    No, that’s not “all”. You’d have to revoke suffrage, uninvent birth control, and criminalize abortion.

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “Susans point is actually irrelevant. A large cohort of women don’t have anything to do with the carousel.”

    So you don’t feel neglected…

    Again, from my POV, just one ONS for a young woman IS riding the carousel. The difference between her and a hardened alpha pro is: how high her N got.

    Yeah, the truth is, my “margin for error” on this issue is very, very, VERY slim. Which is ultimately why I had to simply give up on it and try other ways to filter. But to be fair, I kept what I used to see as “my end of the bargain” by passing up opportunities for nasty casual sex. My error was that I didn’t understand doing so was damned hard for many/most people. All it took from me is a “HELL no.” Seems simple enough…

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      Yeah, the truth is, my “margin for error” on this issue is very, very, VERY slim. Which is ultimately why I had to simply give up on it and try other ways to filter.

      You did it in your personal life, so how about doing it here? :)

  • Just1Z

    @TedD

    I’m afraid that popular shows like the bonoboes of Jersey Shore and the Kardashyuns show that the war is lost. those attitudes are climbing the class ladder.

    Did you catch the charts at ‘D’s place (no link) showing that (subject to sampling errors) the women never married 35-39 y.o. in 2007 were still unmarried in 2012? the same for 40-44 y.o. is 2007. The percentage never married stayed the same for the two sets of women over five years – they didn’t get married on a statistically significant rate. For the unmarried 30-34 y.o.s in 2007, 1 in 6 got married in the subsequent 5 years (18.5% -> 15.4%. 3.1 / 18.5 is around 1 in 6). The 25-29s went from 39% to 25% in those five years, so a bit under 1 in 3 previously unmarrieds got married.

    The numbers do NOT say whether it’s men not wanting marriage, or women. Nor do they break it down by class (as charted on the site, anyway). But the trends are alarming for those believing that marriage is good for society. I’ve not seen how long term co-habitation is taking up any of the slack…which might lessen the effects on society.

  • Ted D

    OTC – “No, that’s not “all”. You’d have to revoke suffrage, uninvent birth control, and criminalize abortion.”

    Not being a smart ass, but why do you believe this to be true? Woman voting has NOTHING to do with promiscuity that I can see. Birth control? I have mixed feelings there, but I must admit my Catholic upbringing probably adds to that one. (and it is one of the reasons I abandoned the Church, though not nearly the main one…) And criminalize abortion?! What in the HELL does that have to do with slutty behavior? Unless you are implying that making women suffer through those unplanned pregnancies would help. I don’t see that working out around here where plenty of single woman have access to those services for little to no money.

  • Escoffier

    When the phony Abraham Lincoln appeared on the bridge of the Enterprise, he called Lt. Uhura a “charming negress” then he felt bad about it but she said it was fine, she had evolved beyond caring about such things.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    jackie, that’s awesome! I’m happy for you that you’re dating someone. :)

    J and Kathy, yep I’m grateful to be with a good man. The Internet often reminds me of his greatness.

  • Just1Z

    those numbers were for white non-hispanic women btw.

    marriage is dying before our eyes, though your class might be okay for now.

  • Ted D

    Just1Z – “I’m afraid that popular shows like the bonoboes of Jersey Shore and the Kardashyuns show that the war is lost. those attitudes are climbing the class ladder.”

    OH I’m well aware of that, which is why at this point I think the only thing that will “save” us is a total collapse, but my fear is that in most cases the regime that replaces what was lost is rarely any better, and often much worse.

    I’m just getting a little tired of being painted to look like a woman hater of some sort. Truth is, I dislike promiscuous behavior in men and women. Full stop. What is seen here more often than not is how I feel about the female side of the equation, but rest assured I have plenty to say about the male side as well.

  • Escoffier

    So, bact OT, if I were on my own at this age, I don’t think I would date down in age all that much. Certainly the 1/2+7 rule for me would mean women that my brain tells me are just too young and we would have close to nothing in common.

    My actual wife is two years younger than me. I could go younger than that, five years seems fine but ten seems like a stretch. Obviously the physical attraction would exist for a wide range of very young women but it’s hard to imagine spending significant (non-sack) time with a woman way, way younger. This is all of course assuming I could attact a significantly younger woman, which is not a given.

    In another post, I think it was Ramble who noted how women’s tastes tend to change as they get older, so a type of man who might not have interested her at 20 looks pretty good at 30. I feel the same way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      The preferred age differences for men and women are consistent throughout the world, according to Buss’ study of 37 countries. Men prefer about 2.5 years younger, women prefer about 3.5 years older. There are good reasons for both sexes to want youth.

      My brother is 54 and has kids 11 and 9. He is perpetually exhausted, and has been since the day they were born. Women want young dads just a bit older than they are. It makes sense – the whole idea of pair-bonding is coparenting, and an older dad just can’t offer the same level of energy.

      For every year older a man is past a certain age (his physical peak of 28?) he must bring something else to the table to compensate. That’s the compromise. His “maturity” is not a plus unless it affords the woman something she can’t get from a guy her own age or a bit older.

      I agree that there is also the question of what you talk about when you’re a generation apart, but I get the sense that most couples with that big an age difference have different incentives driving them.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I don’t find it useful to wring my hands, and I certainly don’t find it productive to complain about the nature of female sexuality.”

    And in my defense, I didn’t fire the first volley on this particular skirmish. I know you are used to pushing back on woman haters and their ilk, but *I* am not one of them, and I don’t think most of the guys here are either. I very much dislike the behavior, but I DO NOT hate the person, or sex, or race, or religion, etc. I don’t blame women for their “sexual nature”, but I DO hold them responsible for NOT taking care with it for themselves, as I do for men.

    And Susan, if someone doesn’t hold up an ideal, what is there to measure actual progress against? Is my ideal world realistic? Probably only to me, LOL. But, does my model of an ideal world have value? Surely, because it can be used as a measuring stick against the “real world” to see how it compares, for better or worse.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But, does my model of an ideal world have value? Surely, because it can be used as a measuring stick against the “real world” to see how it compares, for better or worse.

      I prefer to take the measure of the real world, and come up with ways of dealing with it. I already know the SMP sucks, I don’t see any point in keening and wailing over it.

  • Ted D

    Escoffier – “My actual wife is two years younger than me. I could go younger than that, five years seems fine but ten seems like a stretch.”

    FWIW I don’t see the 8 years between my wife and I as any kind of problem at all, and at this point I could easily see 10 years being a non-issue. Truth is, the places it seems to show the most make life interesting. We are about a decade apart when it comes to things like TV shows and music, but the funny part is we took almost the exact same “taste discovery” only about a decade apart. She finds it funny when I wax on about some cool 80’s song, and I shake my head at her when she hears a 90’s song on the radio and talks about HS, because by then I was well into my 20’s.

    But otherwise? In all honestly it hasn’t ever been an issue. Not once. We joke about our age difference, but it really is more about endearment to each other than actual age discrepancies.

    I could do 10. I think 15 years might be as far as I could manage, but only because at that point, we probably wouldn’t share any kind of common history at all. But hey, that might actually turn out to be a VERY interesting relationship. I mean, a wife that much younger could possibly make a guy feel younger himself, and more “in touch” with a totally new crowd.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    First, they are indeed outliers, which doesn’t contradict the idea that most women don’t want it.

    Second, I generally find it’s not useful to use celebrities as examples. Petraeus was one of the nominally most powerful men in the world. His “maturity” is not what got him that woman with the very shiny face. He would have done much better at 40 in that same job, and he wouldn’t have gone for a 40 year old.

    Re Rupert Sanders, the word on the street says that whole episode was cooked up.

    The point is that it’s not accurate to tell men there’s no limit to how young they can go.

    Male maturity is perceptually Alpha for women.

    Alpha /= SMV, particularly as men age.

    And aren’t you one of the bloggers who said that Petraeus is no alpha? I think most women would agree he is extremely unattractive, with SMV about equal to his wife’s.

    There are very alpha old men like Prince Philip who we may say has still got it going on for an old goat, but that translates to high SMV only for women a bit younger than he is, IMO.

    As I said in the post, the women I know in their 20s are not typically interested in men even 10 years older. I’m advising them to reconsider. But no reformed alphas!

  • Jackie

    @Ted D

    Ted, I was talking with someone last night about “the illusion of accomplishment.” Namely, people will talk about doing something, or click on a link, leave a comment or glance at a list of tips. They will do this many, many times. And they will feel they have “done something.”

    When, in reality, if you asked them for tangible proof of accomplishment, there is nothing to show for it.

    That is what I feel like when you post jeremiads about how slutty and awful and unrestricted the way things are today. My reply is, Okay, so what tangible results do you have to show for your efforts?

    In all your hundreds of comments– which I can tell you put tons of time and thought!– what change have you brought about?

    Look, Ted, I’m not only on the side of the restricteds, but if the SMP was a video game, my difficulty settings of religion make it a LOT trickier than yours. But I don’t sit around with a huge sign that says REPENT WHILE THERE’S STILL TIME! or go on about how religion has fallen away as a mainstay of Western culture.

    I accept that I need exceptionally tight Girl Game and proceed accordingly. Posting on a blog changes nothing; concrete action does. Like the quote to Deti yesterday, Be the change you wish to see in this world, Ted! :)

  • Ted D

    Susan – “You did it in your personal life, so how about doing it here? ”

    LOL nice shot. ;-) But since you made it a question, I’ll answer it simply: Because I NEVER want my boys to have to “give up” on it in their personal lives. I don’t EVER want them to look at a woman they love and care about and think less of her because of these types of past incidents. Because IF everyone just controlled themselves a little bit more, this would never be a problem.

    “I prefer to take the measure of the real world, and come up with ways of dealing with it. I already know the SMP sucks, I don’t see any point in keening and wailing over it.”

    and that sounds very much like a ‘perceiver/feeler” kinda process. I do the exact opposite. I look at the ideal, see how “real life” differs from it, and try to figure out how to push “real life” in the direction of the ideal. Or, if I decide that the reality isn’t so bad, I adjust the ideal to match.

    So you see, on many ways we are working towards the same goal. The difference is, while you seem to concentrate on the “little things” that can be changed quickly to push things in the right direction, I’m more likely to say the whole thing is broke, should be scrapped, and started over. :P

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      So you see, on many ways we are working towards the same goal. The difference is, while you seem to concentrate on the “little things” that can be changed quickly to push things in the right direction, I’m more likely to say the whole thing is broke, should be scrapped, and started over

      I would love to see you formulate a strategy for that! Seriously, you could make a whole blog out of that. But not this blog.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “That is what I feel like when you post jeremiads about how slutty and awful and unrestricted the way things are today. My reply is, Okay, so what tangible results do you have to show for your efforts?”

    My children. My problem is, as much as I want to mold them to my way of viewing the world, I currently question whether or not that will help or hurt them in the long run.

    Short of raising them to be better people that the vast majority, there isn’t much I can do legally to fix any of this but bitch and complain.

    “Posting on a blog changes nothing; concrete action does. Like the quote to Deti yesterday, Be the change you wish to see in this world, Ted!”

    LOL, I get that. But the truth is, I AM the change I’d like to see in the world already. I think there are far, far too few people like me, and far, far too many that are opposite. Deep down inside, I truly do believe that I am correct and the rest of the world is nuts. The thing is, my desire to be “fair” keeps my ego in check most of the time. I realize it is arrogant of me, but that really is the truth. Inside I tend to look down my nose at most of Western society, I just hide it rather well. Here? Not so much. LOL.

    However, I promise you that I have never once on this site posted how I truly and honestly feel without some major pre-filtering. I assure you that I can put many Evangelical preachers to shame when it comes to fiery speeches about sin, evil, and eternal damnation, and I’m not all that invested in the religious aspects at all.

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    “Everyone is DTF-now under the right circumstances.”
    ====
    In your spirit of literalness:
    What about eunuchs? ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What about eunuchs?

      LOL

  • Jackie

    @Ted

    Hey Ted,

    Thanks for the thoughtful response! I think we are missing each other’s mark, though. This:

    “, Okay, so what tangible results do you have to show for your efforts?”

    My children.”

    I mean, what has all your posting here *accomplished*? Have you convinced one HUSsie or HUSsar to do anything differently? Have your comments been read by your daughter and impacted her? (Aside: I appreciate my Luddite father right now, since I would feel extremely weird reading any HUS comments he would have!)

    What have your posts here done? What concrete evidence? Your children are not here as a result of the posts! ;)

  • Ted D

    Susan – “I would love to see you formulate a strategy for that! Seriously, you could make a whole blog out of that. But not this blog.”

    The honest to God’s truth is: I wouldn’t want to see it even though I could and would create it. I know beyond all doubt that any process *I* designed to fix all this would be painful at best, and downright inhuman at worst. I don’t have much patience for stupidity (even my own if/when I recognize it) and I don’t generally believe in taking thing slow once I decide to go. In short, I guaranty it would be a time of much misery and suffering. But, on the other side of all that would be something that ran like clockwork, and made the majority of folks happy and content.

    Understand that I realize I’d be a piss poor leader of people, because I really don’t CARE about people. I care about results, and to me people are a resource or a roadblock, but never the reason.

    Put another way, I completely understand where Anakin Skywalker was coming from when he told Padme that he would bring order and peace to HIS galaxy, because he wouldn’t tolerate anything less. I can’t promise I’d take the “higher” path in the eyes of humanity, but my solution would work.

  • Jackie

    @Ted

    Ted, I’m going to keep being mean and picking on you! ;)

    “I assure you that I can put many Evangelical preachers to shame when it comes to fiery speeches about sin, evil, and eternal damnation, and I’m not all that invested in the religious aspects at all.”
    ===
    How is this any accomplishment?

    As Jesus says in the Bible, Prostitutes and tax collectors — those on whom we look down our noses — are entering the Kingdom of God before you and me.

    I really really really hate superiority and arrogance and try to stamp out its roots in myself before it can try to bloom. The truth is, Ted, none of us knows another person’s heart. And until we do –which I believe only comes after this life– the only superiority we can practice is a false one.

  • Lokland

    @Jackie

    “What about eunuchs? ”

    Kinky.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “Ted, I’m going to keep being mean and picking on you! ”

    Fire away! I’m enjoying the interaction actually. ;-)

    “How is this any accomplishment?”

    I wasn’t claiming it was an accomplishment. Much like female nature, it just is. I was simply pointing it out.

    “As Jesus says in the Bible, Prostitutes and tax collectors — those on whom we look down our noses — are entering the Kingdom of God before you and me.”

    Dear, my ONLY chance for getting into heaven at this point is if God has a great sense of humor. According to my Catholic teachings, I’d have to feel regret and genuine remorse for my past behaviors to get into heaven, and the truth is I don’t in either case. The reason I left the Church is primarily because what they taught me is: I’m evil. And if that is the truth, why should I try SO HARD to please them?

    Now if you really want my take on faith and heaven, it is far more complicated. I think the Church is full of shit. I don’t need them to be my go-between to God. I can and do have a relationship with Him without the aid of another single soul. He understands me better than any human can, and I fully believe that BECAUSE he understands me, he will accept me as well. If I was unhappy with my arrogance or “superiority”, I’d change it. Truth is, I’m completely content feeling that I’m smarter (at least in a street/common sense way) and more moral than most folks. I believe it to be true.

    Besides, I was always more of an Old Testament kinda guy. Truthfully, I think Jesus Christ may have been the biggest mistake “Christianity” ever made.

    “I really really really hate superiority and arrogance and try to stamp out its roots in myself before it can try to bloom. ”

    Sweetheart (and I mean that in the best way possible, no condescension here) it is FAR too late to ‘save’ me from myself on this. You can’t stamp this out in me unless you can completely unmake me and reform me into something else. I spent the better part of my late teens to early 20’s trying to figure out how to do it, and I finally concluded that it is just in my nature to be an arrogant asshole, and set out to do what I could to minimize the collateral damage.

    “The truth is, Ted, none of us knows another person’s heart. And until we do –which I believe only comes after this life– the only superiority we can practice is a false one.”

    I can accept that view, and will even concede that it probably has some truth to it. I fully accept that for all my belief in myself and my opinions, I may be completely full of shit. Until that’s proven though, I’ll stick to what I know. ;-)

  • Jackie

    @VD

    Ha ha! C’mon, VD, Jon Snow is where it’s at. ;)

    The labels seem so nebulous; the crazy-making comes from being told that we women are helpless to resist the so-called Alpha. That conflation is what makes no sense to me.

    But Perelman is alpha by that definition and he is BEYOND gross! Same thing with so many of the “Alphas” who are touted by men here. Maybe Sassy the Alpha-Chaser can clarify?

    Also, wait, aren’t you ostensibly a Christian, V? How are practicing the teachings of Christ while writing a blog about Alphas? They seem antithetical to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Ha ha! C’mon, VD, Jon Snow is where it’s at.

      I’ll second that. He’s the keeper. If we’re talking strictly alpha my vote would have to go to the dearly departed Ned Stark. He wasn’t perfect (see John Snow) but he was a man of honor and character, a benevolent alpha. Khal Drogo is another good mix. Tywin, played by the reptilian Charles Dance, is physically repulsive, though he obviously dominates all the men.

      It’s clear that female fantasies differ considerably from what men perceive as alpha. The most desirable alphas have a bad case of oneitis. :)

  • Jackie

    @Lokland

    TMI!!!
    :shock:

  • Just1Z

    “the only superiority we can practice is a false one”

    no, one is quite capable of being objectively superior to another.

    surely someone who obeys the ten commandments is superior to one who knowingly does not? and why should not society regard one as superior to the other? one improves society, the other harms it…there is no equivalence.

    when, through PC, society stops expressing judgement, that’s when everything heads round the u-bend. there’s nothing wrong with judgement, as long as it is done according to proper standards (now that is a debate to be had)

  • Jackie

    @Ted

    I will reply to the rest of your points after I’ve had a bit o’time to think. It makes me really, really sad to hear that religious people told you that you were “evil”! That’s beyond awful. :( And spiritual abuse. :(

    Could you explain this:

    “Besides, I was always more of an Old Testament kinda guy. Truthfully, I think Jesus Christ may have been the biggest mistake “Christianity” ever made.”
    ===
    It’s interesting that Judaism doesn’t include the NT (obvs!) yet is less fire-n-brimstone (and definitely much more erudite) than many –I’d say MOST– branches of Christianity. Also, way way way WAY more open to debate and intepretation!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Jackie

      It’s interesting that Judaism doesn’t include the NT (obvs!) yet is less fire-n-brimstone (and definitely much more erudite) than many –I’d say MOST– branches of Christianity. Also, way way way WAY more open to debate and intepretation!

      I heard a homily recently by a Jesuit scholar. He had taken one piece of scripture from the Hebrew Bible (OT) and parsed the wording. In particular, he talked about the differences in meaning between the differing translations of a word that could be either “and” or “therefore.” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) It reminded me so much of Talmudic scholarship, and I loved learning that!

  • Ted D

    Just1Z – “when, through PC, society stops expressing judgement, that’s when everything heads round the u-bend. there’s nothing wrong with judgement, as long as it is done according to proper standards (now that is a debate to be had)”

    Exactly.

    man, it really sucks we can’t do a few beers over BBQ. Tell you what, if shit really does hit the fan in the West, I’ll do my best to be poolside somewhere you can reach quickly. If I have to watch the world crumble around me, I want to do it with like minded people. And for better or worse, you and I are pretty like minded. ;-)

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “It’s interesting that Judaism doesn’t include the NT (obvs!) yet is less fire-n-brimstone (and definitely much more erudite) than many –I’d say MOST– branches of Christianity. Also, way way way WAY more open to debate and intepretation!”

    I considered converting to Judaism for a while, but decided that I liked bacon far too much. Seriously though, I do tend to relate to Judiasm better than anything Christian.

    I’d truly love to get into this with you, but I don’t know if here is the right place, and I do enough derailing as it is. The short version:

    I believe that Jesus was NOT sent here to be the end all be all. He was sent here to simply prove that humans WERE capable of being more than animals. The fact that we formed an entire religion AND society based on the teachings of JC alone goes against the 10 commandments: Thou shalt have NO false gods before me. Christians worship Christ far more than they worship God. Their symbol is the cross! IMO, Christianity is based on a false god, that we call Jesus Christ. I don’t buy that Holy Trinity bunk. Sure, I can believe Jesus was the son of God, just like I am, and every other man is. Of course, you are the daughter of God as well.

    UGH, I’m wanting to continue, but instead I’m going for my lunch walk…

  • Just1Z

    @TedD
    “And for better or worse, you and I are pretty like minded”

    oh yes, I think so. as you say, for better or worse.

    I’m an atheist that sees a lot of good things in the morality of religion, but not so much in how it seems to be practiced in the real world. NACALT, I know.

    I watched Louis Theroux on the Westboro facists last night – what charming people, fully empowered by their religious beliefs.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – ” It makes me really, really sad to hear that religious people told you that you were “evil”! That’s beyond awful. And spiritual abuse. ”

    To be fair, this is probably just how I interpreted the Catholic tradition of teaching with negativity. You know, born a sinner, always a sinner. Add to that my tendencies to feel I’m always right, and that I’m a judgmental asshat, and you can easily see how me and Catholic grade school just didn’t get along well. Or more specifically, the nuns teaching at Catholic school didn’t appreciate my attitude…

  • Zach

    @Susan

    “2. Quality men are in no rush – they understand that their MMV is increasing.

    3. Quality men date as a means of shopping, and they are quick to exit once they’ve determined it’s not a match.”

    Both of these for me, especially number 3. If I’m actually looking to date someone (which I am), I’m very, very quick to pull the cord on a girl who’s not going to work out (often after 1 date, maybe 2). I just have no need to settle for a girl just because she’s there. I’d much rather be single than with an “eh” girl. I have some friends who are in relationships just to be in one, or for the sex, and it honestly repulses me.

    Also, and maybe this is just from living in the Northeast (the South and Midwest are FAT), but I constantly see early/mid 30s women who are very, very attractive. Be it modern medical tech, women having fewer children, or even the appeal of Lululemon, to me a lot of women are staying attractive at much older ages than was previously true (one girl I was dating introduced me to her aunt, who was 40, and I honestly would have tossed aside the 23 year old in a heartbeat for her she was that gorgeous). So I’m in no rush to marry before a certain age, as my options will still be pretty damn good for a long, long time to come.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      I thought of you when writing this post, knowing full well that you’ve got women after you now who would do better to go older, and you’ll also have women after you in 10 years when you’re ready to settle down. :P

  • Just1Z

    @Zach
    how does the aunt feel about travel to exotic foreign lands…or even just the UK? just asking

  • Passer_By

    @Susan

    “Of course, but I’m afraid you’re shooting the messenger.”

    Huh? I’m not shooting anyone. Well, maybe Tom, if I get a good clean shot at him.

    “That assumes that all women or most women give their sexuality to bums, and I’ve just spent six months driving the final nail into that coffin. ”

    Perhaps, but this was in response to you commenting on how many girls mature from liking “bad boys” to responsible, just like men mature from wanting to bang the dumb bleached blond bimbo to something else. Call me old fashioned, but I consider “bad boys” to be bums of a sort (not hobos, obviously). So, this related to THOSE girls, unless you are claiming they were totally celibate during their extended bad boy phase. Remember, this was all arising out of that passage quoted above from the book about what she wanted to fuck when she was 20 and what she wanted to have come home to her when she 30. So, in this case, is the meme not applicable?

    I’m simply reminding you that women want to be the ones guys mature into liking. Guys, if given a hard choice, would prefer to be the bad boy that they banged in their youth. For a guy, being told you’re the one they will mature into wanting is sort of like telling a girl that she’s just a cum dumpster who isn’t suitable for LTR. So, when you ask why guys might be bothered by this “maturation”, ask the dumb beach bimbo with bigguns why she might resent being nothing but a cum dumpster. Both feel used.

    Personally, I believe that this has more influence on the growing college gender ratio skew than discrimination against boys in school. There is a social and sexual cost to being smart and studious for a boy that is much higher than that for a girl. And the reward is something that’s supposed to come when he’s thirty. Tough sell, when they see drop outs in bands getting laid like tile. I think it takes pretty heavy parenting to motivate through that, and a natural degree of intellectual competitiveness on the boy’s part.

    “my guess is that female fantasies about pinning you to the wall and exhausting you were occurring with rapid fire frequency. ”

    I don’t know about that. But, if so, that would be 15 or 20 seconds THEY WOULD NEVER FORGET, let me tell you. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      And the reward is something that’s supposed to come when he’s thirty. Tough sell, when they see drop outs in bands getting laid like tile. I think it takes pretty heavy parenting to motivate through that, and a natural degree of intellectual competitiveness on the boy’s part.

      You raise a good point here. We definitely need some bad boy shaming, and parents are the ones who should be doing this. Raising sons to be productive members of society rather than pussy chasers. Unfortunately, I’ve seen many parents take great pride in having a ladykiller son. You can even hear it when people compliment toddlers, “Oh boy, he’s going to break a lot of hearts!” As if that’s a good thing.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      that would be 15 or 20 seconds THEY WOULD NEVER FORGET, let me tell you.

      If delivery time is that volatile and uncertain, I suggest not wearing light gray suits to the office.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    Posting on a blog changes nothing

    I disagree dearest Jackie. :) Reading here has helped me realize that most aren’t out doing casual and that has influenced my behavior to seek casual less. The right idea, shared in the right way, can trigger a change in someone. Even on a blog.

  • Zach

    @Just1Z

    The aunt spent 14 years working for Och-Ziff and had just taken a temporary “retirement” to do more traveling. If you can find her, good luck to you.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    As Jesus says in the Bible, Prostitutes and tax collectors — those on whom we look down our noses — are entering the Kingdom of God before you and me.

    Are you calling yourself a pharisee? Also, these would be repentant and eventually righteous harlots and publicans going into the kingdom before the pharisees. I don’t see you or Ted as pharisees. Ted isn’t a hypocrite and you’re too nice to your cats. ;)

  • Just1Z

    @Passer_by
    “that would be 15 or 20 seconds THEY WOULD NEVER FORGET, let me tell you”

    foreplay too huh?
    classy guy!

  • Just1Z

    @Zach
    so I have your blessing – thanks mate…I’ll let you know how I get on.

  • JP

    I don’t know what I am specifically, religiously speaking.

    I’m whatever happens when you inflict spiritual experiences on someone who is effectively a materialist.

    Christianity is definitely serviceable, given that I’ve had it actually work once.

  • Doc

    I’ll stick with 18-25… Why? Because that is the age range I find most attractive, and since I’m the one doing the work, it’s up to me to choose my target. When women are doing the hunting, they can do the choosing – till then, it’s a man’s prerogative…

    Of course, she doesn’t have to come back to my place – that IS her choice, but mine is who I’ll put in the time and effort on… And as long as I’m getting enough response in that age bracket, why would I change?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Doc

      I’ll stick with 18-25… Why? Because that is the age range I find most attractive, and since I’m the one doing the work, it’s up to me to choose my target. When women are doing the hunting, they can do the choosing – till then, it’s a man’s prerogative…

      Men display and women select, so your results must determine your strategy. Both sexes are free to set their own standards.

      And as long as I’m getting enough response in that age bracket, why would I change?

      You wouldn’t, it sounds like you are able to pull the women you want. Carry on.

  • J

    Still, you can’t blame a guy for trying, right? The 52 year old who wants a woman in her 20s should get out there and see what he’s got. He’ll figure out his real MMV/SMV soon enough.

    LOL. Yes, indeed. I recall a night during the Jurassic Era when a 20-something yo J went dancing with her girl friends at a disco. (We did that sort of thing back then.) A 50 something yo lounge lizard, relatively well preserved and dressed like John Travolta, asked her to dance. Despite her amusement with the man’s Qiana (TM) shirt–looked like silk , but was actually polyester!– J refused. It was too much like dancing with her father (who actually looked rather distinguished as opposed to silly when he would go out). The man persisted for what seemed like an eternity. He kept asking for her number. Finally J reached inside her purse, grabbed a pen and wrote a fake number a napkin. “Here,” she said, “It’s not mine, but it’s the number of someone who looks like me that you might have some things in common with.” “OK,” asked the man, “whose is it?” “It’s my mom’s,” replied J, amusing all her friends.

    Cruel? I was a younger and more impatient J then, and the constant persistence from a sweaty old guy in a polyester shirt was….what’s the word? Creepy?

    Perhaps he eventually found some girl to go home with; picking up women in clubs can be a numbers game. OTOH, I can guarantee you that the average 20 yo girl in that disco would have been equally disgusted.

    SW:The truth is, most women really don’t want to go more than 10 years older at the outside.

    Rollo: 60 year old David Petraeus and 41 (sic) year old Rupert Sanders disagree with you. Obviously they’re outliers, but the principle is the same. Male maturitypower and money is perceptually Alpha for women gold-diggers and whores.

    I FTFY, Rollo. Don’t bother to thank me.

  • JP

    “There is a social and sexual cost to being smart and studious for a boy that is much higher than that for a girl. And the reward is something that’s supposed to come when he’s thirty. ”

    I was just competitive and wanted to win.

    Since my talent was academics, I generally won school.

    It came with cash prizes!

  • LJ

    @J “Here,” she said, “It’s not mine, but it’s the number of someone who looks like me that you might have some things in common with.” “OK,” asked the man, “whose is it?” “It’s my mom’s,”

    LOL… That’s good. I doubt the Mom was happy about it though!

  • Bully

    Passer_by pretty much backed up what I said prior.

    If younger, more attractive women will refuse to reward men that take the high road and invest in themselves, then that behavior will simply be bred out of men.

  • Zach

    @J

    You’re right, it’s an exception for young women to go after 50 yo men, but it’s not quite so tiny. The “Viagra Triangle” in Chicago exists and thrives purely because of this exception.

    @Susan

    One quick point about dating older men is that the older men may not always want to date a younger woman. I’m almost 26, and I have little interest in dating a 22 yo girl 6 months out of college. In my experience, those girls still behave as if they’re in school, and I have little to nothing in common with them. There are certain life milestones that break this up more than you might think (marriage, kids, etc).

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      One quick point about dating older men is that the older men may not always want to date a younger woman. I’m almost 26, and I have little interest in dating a 22 yo girl 6 months out of college.

      As I recall, you are seeking a partner who is intellectual, a curious and engaging conversationalist. I think many men like you have little interest in very young women. The men who prioritize “hotter, younger, tighter” to the exclusion of those things will be more likely to go as low as possible.

  • J

    LOL… That’s good. I doubt the Mom was happy about it though!

    It was a fake number, but my mom was still pissed at me until she stopped to realize that there was no way that my dad would pick up a phone at some random house that was God only knows where.

  • Bully

    FWIW, the vast majority of my stalkers on OKCupid as 29 are 20-24. Maybe that will change after I turn 30, but I’m not really predicting a huge jump.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      FWIW, the vast majority of my stalkers on OKCupid as 29 are 20-24. Maybe that will change after I turn 30, but I’m not really predicting a huge jump.

      That doesn’t surprise me! One thing women in that age range have said to me is that they get messaged primarily by guys in their own age range, and rarely by guys who are 30 or more. I don’t know if those guys feel sheepish, like “toxic bachelors” or if they have no interest in young women, as Zach described. I’ve advised them to set their preference as older, don’t check the box for guys under 25.

  • OffTheCuff

    LJ: “That’s good. I doubt the Mom was happy about it though!”

    It was a fake number, which is what made it so funny.

  • INTJ

    @ Passer_By

    There is a social and sexual cost to being smart and studious for a boy that is much higher than that for a girl

    I missed the memo somewhere along the way. I was always under the impression that university is the place where smart people are and thus the social hierarchy is much better for smart and studious guys. Wasn’t the case. Nobody mentioned that the social hierarchy in college is rather fragmented, and the smart guys are outside the sexual hierarchy.

    Oddly enough, I was pretty high up in the social and sexual hierarchy during high school. I suppose this might be due to the weirdness of the East Bay. In fact, regional differences could explain Megaman’s observations about the SMP there.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – “I disagree dearest Jackie. Reading here has helped me realize that most aren’t out doing casual and that has influenced my behavior to seek casual less. The right idea, shared in the right way, can trigger a change in someone. Even on a blog.”

    Exactly. Ideas have power and can influence people. So if only one person in the entire world sees something I post and changes for the better, I’ve done more than I set out to do from the start.

    In terms of what *I* personally am doing? Not a damn thing. Once our youngest turns 18, my “duty” to society is complete, and I’m doing whatever I freaking feel like. When I say the wife and I are making plans for the “empty nest”, I don’t necessarily mean vacations in Mexico. I want out of the Western world, but I can’t leave until I’ve finished what I’ve started, which means getting my children to adulthood. They can pick up the fight from there, and I’m going to find someplace nice to settle down and ride out whatever is coming, good or bad.

    I have a few friends on board as well, and we are just starting to talk about what we can do to live somewhere else in the world, without all the baggage associated with Western society, while being able to have enough money to live there in comfort. I don’t know if it will ever come to fruition, but I can’t help but be amused that at some point I came to the conclusion that this is hopeless, and I just want to bail. If I didn’t have kids, I’d have left years ago. At this point I’m basically just doing my best to give my kids a good shot at success, and that’s it.

    Maybe you’ll read about us online after an ATF like agency raids our compound!

  • Bully

    If I could wave a wand at myself, removing a third of my IQ, and send myself back to the beginning of high school to let my natural alpha take over, I would do it in a heartbeat.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I prefer to take the measure of the real world, and come up with ways of dealing with it. I already know the SMP sucks, I don’t see any point in keening and wailing over it.”

    The real problem is that there isn’t really a SMP because a market is not the best analogy.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “We definitely need some bad boy shaming, and parents are the ones who should be doing this. Raising sons to be productive members of society rather than pussy chasers. Unfortunately, I’ve seen many parents take great pride in having a ladykiller son. You can even hear it when people compliment toddlers, “Oh boy, he’s going to break a lot of hearts!” As if that’s a good thing.”

    I’m not sure that this parental pressure thing works. My father would have loved if I had played football and gone after women.

    At one point, he was afraid that I “didn’t like girls”.

    It was pretty clear to me that he didn’t know the first thing about me. We weren’t exactly on the same wavelength.

  • Escoffier

    I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.

      I’ve given up trying to square Christian principles with that crowd. I’ve never seen a more mean-spirited group. Did someone mention the Pharisees?

      GBFM had a brilliant takedown of players as being in complete opposition to Christ’s teachings, and they didn’t like him either.

  • J

    It reminded me so much of Talmudic scholarship, and I loved learning that!

    I too think of the Jebbies as the Talmudists of the Christian world.

  • JP

    “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.”

    Not too many puritan repressionists left these days.

    That was pretty 17th century.

  • Ted D

    “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.”

    Yep. Part of why my attempts to find a church to belong to has failed. Even in places of worship, people are completely off their rockers.

    Frankly it pisses me off when anyone is all about oppressing one group of people for bad behavior but allowing another groups bad behavior to go unchecked. I’m an asshole and all, but I’m all about being a fair asshole. Or equally unfair I suppose…

  • JP

    “Men display and women select, so your results must determine your strategy. ”

    I was generally the one doing the selecting.

    So, you display, then they select, and then you select.

    There are three steps here.

  • J

    I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.

    Well, even the “devout” want a free fcuk sometimes if it comes from someone they can feel morally superior to. There are loads of rationalizations that essentially say that if a woman is taken in by a player she deserves it. I suppose that if you sling a cross around the neck of hamster it begins to look more like an Easter bunny to you.

  • JP

    I noticed that fornication and divorce are no longer getting people to condemned as depraved and tossed as members of churches.

    Although marriage got my college roommate tossed from the priesthood.

  • Passer_By

    “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ.”

    We’re talking about something very different here. You won’t motivate adult players not to get ‘tang. The question is how do you motivate more boys (junior high and high school) to do well enough in school and to go to college in numbers equalling or exceeding the number of women, assuming there is value to that. This is difficult when doing the hard work to prepare yourself for that is quite often a huge negative for guys in terms of short term SMV and social standing, and telling them they will be rewarded 15 years later with sloppy thirtieths is cold comfort.

    Plus, the gyst of what you were saying at Dalrock’s was that they should be shamed for wronging and damaging these women who they go through, as if the women have no independent agency or responsiblity for themselves.

  • Tasmin

    @Susan
    “For every year older a man is past a certain age (his physical peak of 28?) he must bring something else to the table to compensate. That’s the compromise. His “maturity” is not a plus unless it affords the woman something she can’t get from a guy her own age or a bit older.”

    Indeed, it goes both ways: a man must bring more to the table as he ages, just as a woman needs to. What they need to bring, however, are very different. A fact that continues to muddle the expectations and reconciliation among the 30-something women and men.

    Age alone does not make a man more desirable, in fact men must work to both preserve their youth/health physically as well as work to establish those “something else’s”. They *may* get latitude on the former, but not without significant gain in the latter. And the “something else to the table” has never been more difficult for a man to establish and maintain. A college degree and a solid corporate gig used to be more than enough. This is just not the case any longer.

    His age/maturity does not guaranty that a man will bring those things that a woman isn’t already providing for on her own – even if she is a few years younger. But it makes sense that a younger woman may have a more flexible and expansive set of “something else” needs/desires than those of a woman of equal age and so many men target accordingly.

    Perhaps there is some apex treatment here, but the reality is that the vast majority of over 30 (unmarried) men have had to compete – and must continue to do so in order to keep up pace with the diminishing ways in which he *might* provide the often whimsical “something else”. Sure, a 33 y/o woman can rail at the harsh tone and overall injustice of how over 30 women are on the receiving end of a blanket discount. But what about these over 30 men? So they pass 30 and have it easy? Or have had it easy at any point leading up to their (potentially) newfound status bump? For every guy over 30 who is lavishing in the rewards of their labour which may or MAY NOT include aiming his attentions at younger women, there are dozens of men who are reeling from divorce, struggling with a highly competitive and increasingly demanding mid-career, or are otherwise temporarily or perpetually lacking in status markers or physical attributes (the short, fat, bald crowd) that are more than enough to reduce his SMV/MMV to the point where his age is just one more detriment; a far cry from the kid in the candy store or any kind of position from which he projects this blanket discount upon his female peers.

    Sure an older man *may* have the ability to attract younger women, but this is because he has elevated himself above the majority of other men, younger and older – largely in spite of his age not merely because of it, and he must continue to work at it. The tables may turn at 30 in terms of male/female SMV trajectory *potential*, but a man still has to run the table to reap the benefit.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Tasmin

      Sure an older man *may* have the ability to attract younger women, but this is because he has elevated himself above the majority of other men, younger and older – largely in spite of his age not merely because of it, and he must continue to work at it. The tables may turn at 30 in terms of male/female SMV trajectory *potential*, but a man still has to run the table to reap the benefit.

      Good point. All the more reason to stop shaming men in their 30s who are single. I don’t think women have any idea that many men in their 30s would like to settle down – as you say, all the media attention is on aging women not being able to find mates. I think it’s a direct result of the culture that says all men want is sex. When we see a guy in his 30s, we assume he could obviously be married right now if he wanted, so he must be choosing to play the field indefinitely.

      I do think that women dating guys in their 30s need to be very careful to make sure this is not the case – he should have a history of LTRs rather than strictly STRs…

  • Jackie

    @Esco

    “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.”
    ====
    :shock:

    Esco, what scriptural authority did they give for this reasoning? Because Christianity has one standard and it has been this way for hundreds and hundreds of years!

    I asked Desi the same question this summer, when it came up with the girl he met at the pool. No one has given me a concrete answer yet. :(

  • INTJ

    @ Escoffier

    I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.

    That’s the manosphere right now. To be fair though, their double standards are really just a reaction to feminist double standards.

  • Jackie

    @J

    “Well, even the “devout” want a free fcuk sometimes if it comes from someone they can feel morally superior to.”
    ===
    ARGH! This is the stuff that I can’t stand! What rationalization can possibly hold up under Christ’s teachings?

    Also, do the “devout” really believe they are devout? Because I am trying to live this, and see myself falling short all the time. (And that’s okay.) These “devout” people– how does the mind work?

  • INTJ

    As I recall, you are seeking a partner who is intellectual, a curious and engaging conversationalist. I think many men like you have little interest in very young women. The men who prioritize “hotter, younger, tighter” to the exclusion of those things will be more likely to go as low as possible.

    Or perhaps its just that he has spent several years plowing through the “hotter, younger, tighter” women, so he won’t miss out on anything when he prioritizes the older women now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Or perhaps its just that he has spent several years plowing through the “hotter, younger, tighter” women, so he won’t miss out on anything when he prioritizes the older women now.

      Ah, this has the ring of truth to it!

  • Zach

    @Susan

    Figured I’d give you an update on that (what I’m looking for). Going on a 4th date tomorrow night with a girl who works in equity research at a bulge bracket bank. She’s quite tall (5’10), quite attractive, very smart and a very informed and engaging conversationalist (we spent a good 30 minutes talking about oil prices last date). However, she’s also quite sexually conservative, and not the best flirter (too timid, much more take than give, and I like an equal give and take of teasing and barbs). So basically I don’t like the party girls because they’re not intellectual enough, and I don’t like the intellectual girls because they’re not sexual enough. I’m f*cked.

    Also, re: girls’ preferences on online dating, I know a lot of guys when they see a girl who’s 23 looking for 27+ year old guys, it’s a biiiig gold digger red flag. Just saying.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Zach

      So basically I don’t like the party girls because they’re not intellectual enough, and I don’t like the intellectual girls because they’re not sexual enough. I’m f*cked.

      You can lead a whore to culture but you can’t make her think. DP

      Don’t make assumptions about the conservative girl. She may turn out to be a wildcat once you clear her filters for comfort and intimacy. The woman who truly bonds to you is going to be a much better lover over the long-term. Maybe not of the “choke me” variety, but give her some time. A lot of women require trust to really let go and then they surprise you.

      Interesting point about the gold digger suspicion – I guess that makes sense. No easy answers.

  • Jackie

    @Susan

    “GBFM had a brilliant takedown of players as being in complete opposition to Christ’s teachings, and they didn’t like him either.”

    A prophet is not without honor, except in his own land. ;)

  • Cooper

    ” don’t check the box for guys under 25.”

    *glares*

  • Bully

    “A college degree and a solid corporate gig used to be more than enough. This is just not the case any longer. ”

    Well, yes, but also consider that the media is constantly touting that fewer men are even going to college, making college educated men with good jobs more of a rarity. If a Game-aware decent to high earning college educated professional is no longer good enough to secure an attractive woman than this society is well and truly lost.

    That being said, what /is/ “more than enough” now despite overwhelming inherited wealth or being good looking and famous (which is, quite literally, .01% or fewer of men)? Hypergamy is hypergamy, I know, but its “g factor” cannot be quite so possibly attuned as to draw so many women to such a tiny subset of men.

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    “That’s the manosphere right now. To be fair though, their double standards are really just a reaction to feminist double standards.”
    ===
    T-Paine, using someone else’s bad behavior to justify your own is not okay. :( If they are going to be Christian bloggers, there is a standard.

    Besides that, any time I see Christians yelling about how hard they’re being persecuted: That is what Jesus said was going to happen! He didn’t promise a life on easy street with tons of chicks and things going your way. Quite the contrary, actually!

  • Jackie

    @HanSolo, Ted

    Here is a quote for you both:

    One idea/Lights a thousand candles

    –Ralph Waldo Emerson
    :)

  • Passer_By

    @jackie

    “That is what Jesus said was going to happen! He didn’t promise a life on easy street with tons of chicks and things going your way.”

    Correct. I was mohammed who promised tons of chicks.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Correct. I was mohammed who promised tons of chicks.

      It was actually 70 white raisins.

  • JP

    @Cooper:

    “” don’t check the box for guys under 25.”

    *glares*”

    Just find a mature 20 year old.

  • Jackie

    @Passerby

    Yeah– in the afterlife! ;)

    PS: Were you drunk-posting last night?

  • Jackie

    @Cooper
    Aww! :(

    Hang in there, Coop.

  • Jackie

    @T-Paine

    “Or perhaps its just that he has spent several years plowing through the “hotter, younger, tighter” women, so he won’t miss out on anything when he prioritizes the older women now.”
    ====
    Zach can correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounded like loveless sex was a crap deal that made him unhappy. And it didn’t sound like girls involved were all that happy with the scene either. :(

  • Passer_By

    @jackie

    “Yeah– in the afterlife!”

    Well, not just there. His then followers got to divy up the captured chicks after they conquered groups and killed the men folk.

    “PS: Were you drunk-posting last night?”

    You have to ask? ;)

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Good point. All the more reason to stop shaming men in their 30s who are single. I don’t think women have any idea that many men in their 30s would like to settle down – as you say, all the media attention is on aging women not being able to find mates. I think it’s a direct result of the culture that says all men want is sex. When we see a guy in his 30s, we assume he could obviously be married right now if he wanted, so he must be choosing to play the field indefinitely.”

    Well, the media attention is on the top guys, not the dorks who couldn’t make sense.

    Sue: “I do think that women dating guys in their 30s need to be very careful to make sure this is not the case – he should have a history of LTRs rather than strictly STRs…”

    I agree. Same goes for men.

    But then again, he can always lie about his number. Wouldn’t wanna be judged for high N. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But then again, he can always lie about his number. Wouldn’t wanna be judged for high N.

      Oh, I think more and more guys are doing just that!

  • Bully

    I should add that if a man MUST have the following to secure the unconditional love of an college-educated attractive young woman (~18-25):

    -Above average resources compared to the US population, even though resources take decades for a man to accumulate
    -Alpha good looks
    -Stringent requirement as to not be more than a few years older than the woman

    … then you pretty much just have a caste mating system because you simply cannot have youth, appearance, and resources in the same man unless it is inherited, and this is speaking as someone that jumped from a working class family to UMC well before he was 30.

  • Jackie

    @Passerby

    ““PS: Were you drunk-posting last night?”

    You have to ask? ”

    I am surprised that SW’s BF or Sassy’s suitors did not call you out for a duel! ;)

  • OffTheCuff

    *make sense = I have no idea what I was thinking. “Couldn’t pair off” or something.

  • Jackie

    @Zach

    ” So basically I don’t like the party girls because they’re not intellectual enough, and I don’t like the intellectual girls because they’re not sexual enough. I’m f*cked.”
    ====
    Zach, I don’t consider myself an intellectual, but I will say that restricted chicks are operating on a whole different wavelength than you’ve been accustomed to.

    Have you ever created an emotional bond with someone first? Have you ever fallen in love before sleeping with someone?

  • INTJ

    @ Jackie

    T-Paine, using someone else’s bad behavior to justify your own is not okay. If they are going to be Christian bloggers, there is a standard.

    Oh certainly. My moral system does not allow harming the innocent. I’m fine with P&D’ing a girl cause she’s cheating on her boyfriend. I’m not okay with P&D’ing a girl to make her pay for the sins of your ex-GF who cheated on you.

    My point is that this sort of response is going to happen, even though it is unjustified. People are going to “turn the other cheek” and “be the better person” for only so long. For example, Nat Turner and his supporters killed a lot of innocent people, and that was very wrong. But that’s the sort of backlash that happens when you indiscriminately oppress people.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    “don’t check the box for guys under 25.”

    Age is not an absolute. My husband was 24 when we first started talking. Granted, a month later he turned 25, but he was wiser, more eloquent and more mature in the spiritual/emotional sense than even many men who have years on him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Hope

      Age is not an absolute. My husband was 24 when we first started talking. Granted, a month later he turned 25, but he was wiser, more eloquent and more mature in the spiritual/emotional sense than even many men who have years on him.

      You are right. It’s important to keep an open mind. Women need to filter on the right things, not arbitrary concerns. It’s much more useful to take stock of a guy’s reputation (if you can) than to judge him based on his age, height, address, car, etc.

      Again, to reiterate, I am not suggesting that women stop dating guys their own age. I’m just encouraging women to broaden the net and not be suspicious of men a bit older, who have some advantages.

  • Ted D

    Zach – “So basically I don’t like the party girls because they’re not intellectual enough, and I don’t like the intellectual girls because they’re not sexual enough. I’m f*cked.”

    LOL man, welcome to my world. It seems I was just completely unaware that there were different “types” of women in this regard. I figured they were all mostly NOT intellectual OR sexual.

    I hate sounding like my grandfather, but man I could really rip shit up if I could go back to my 18yo body with my 42yo knowledge. Youth is wasted on the young. :P

  • jrd

    Escoffier: “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.”

    That’s a Christian blog!?! After reading a few of the comments, I couldn’t take anymore. One over-30 commenter was preoccupied with “young hot girls”, and another one displayed what you reported – that it’s not hypocritical for a man to sleep around yet expect women to be virginal.

  • INTJ

    @ Passer_by

    Well, not just there. His then followers got to divy up the captured chicks after they conquered groups and killed the men folk.

    They were just following the tradition set by the Jews.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “It’s much more useful to take stock of a guy’s reputation (if you can) than to judge him based on his age, height, address, car, etc.”

    Excluding age this is a bad metric.
    Their all metrics of status ie. provisioning capability.

    Admittedly other things are also necessary but these are excellent indicators of certain qualities.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    ” don’t check the box for guys under 25.”

    *glares*

    Hey, you only have a couple years to go. ;)

  • Emily

    >> “Don’t make assumptions about the conservative girl. She may turn out to be a wildcat once you clear her filters for comfort and intimacy”

    Zac, I was just going to say something similar. You’re going to have a much easier time getting the intellectual girl to be more sexual than you would making the party girl more intellectual.

  • Lokland

    Also, how do I unsubscribe myself to this thread?
    I current;y have 234 emails which I’m really not interested in reading.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also, how do I unsubscribe myself to this thread?
      I current;y have 234 emails which I’m really not interested in reading.

      First world problem!

      There should be a link to manage your subscriptions – go there and uncheck.

  • Emily

    Re: Game of Thrones and older women

    My boyfriend thinks that Cersei Lannister is the hottest GoT female. (And he randomly volunteered this information. This wasn’t a response to a shit test or anything.) This is eyebrow-raising for more than a few reasons, but it’s worth noting that Lena Headey is almost 40. Yes, we’re dealing with outliers here, but there’s still hope. (This also goes to show that not all men want somebody who’s super-submissive. :P )

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Again, to reiterate, I am not suggesting that women stop dating guys their own age. I’m just encouraging women to broaden the net and not be suspicious of men a bit older, who have some advantages.”

    What Cooper hears:

    “Again to reiterate, I am not suggesting that women don’t date Cooper, I’m just encouraging women to broaden the net and not be suspicious of men who have some advantages over Cooper.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I realize that this post marginalizes the Coopers and the Kendras. Sorry about that. :(

  • J

    You won’t motivate adult players not to get ‘tang.

    I don’t think that was Esco’s goal. He was merely questioning why a bunch of “pious” Christians would cheer lead for players.

    It was actually 70 white raisins.

    Mmmmmmmmm….raisins.

    They were really pure and delicious raisins, unchewed by other men.

    Also, do the “devout” really believe they are devout? Because I am trying to live this, and see myself falling short all the time. (And that’s okay.) These “devout” people– how does the mind work?

    Here’s the paradox. People who believe themselves to be devout are generally merely sanctimonious. Those who worry about falling short are often more devout.

    Every day Mother Teresa wrestled with the idea that God had forsaken her, that Jesus didn’t exist and that her work with the poor was in fact the product of her throwing her life down the shitter. Then she went and fed or healed someone. She was devout.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “Also, how do I unsubscribe myself to this thread?
    I current;y have 234 emails which I’m really not interested in reading.”

    Don’t the emails contain a link to manage your subscription?

  • Ted D

    Lokland – “I current;y have 234 emails which I’m really not interested in reading.”

    It isn’t bad enough I get constantly tl;dr’ed here, but now you gonna go and delete HUS emails without reading them too?! My ego is taking a beating today…

    I made the mistake of subscribing to a thread here once. I was never so glad to see a thread finally die. LOL.

  • Passer_By

    @JP

    “What Cooper hears: “Again to reiterate, I am not suggesting that women don’t date Cooper, I’m just encouraging women to broaden the net and not be suspicious of men who have some advantages over Cooper.””

    What SW really means:

    “Again to reiterate, I am not suggesting that women don’t date Cooper, BUT IF COOPER IS CONSISTENTLY UNWILLING TO SETTLE DOWN OR COMMIT, I’m just encouraging women to broaden the net and not be suspicious of men who ARE WILLING TO COMMIT and may have some advantages over Cooper.”

  • INTJ

    @ J

    Every day Mother Teresa wrestled with the idea that God had forsaken her, that Jesus didn’t exist and that her work with the poor was in fact the product of her throwing her life down the shitter. Then she went and fed or healed someone. She was devout.

    Bad example though. As an Indian, I have to point out that Mother Teresa did very little for the poor.

  • JP

    @J:

    “Every day Mother Teresa wrestled with the idea that God had forsaken her, that Jesus didn’t exist and that her work with the poor was in fact the product of her throwing her life down the shitter. Then she went and fed or healed someone. She was devout.”

    I’m inclined to go with Hitchens on this one. I’m generally a fan of the idea of religious orders (properly constituted and run), but Mother Teresa always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

    “One key witness is Susan Shields, who wrote about her experience in Free Inquiry Magazine (Vol. 18 no. 1, Winter 1997/1998). Shields was a sister in the Missionaries of Charity. She lived with them in the Bronx, Rome, and San Francisco. According to Shields, the philosophy that guided the Missionary Sisters both considered suffering a virtue and strongly discouraged attachments of any kind to the people served. The inevitable result of this combination was an indifference to human suffering. If suffering is good, and if feeling emotional responses toward the patients is bad, then any uncomfortable emotions that may arise from witnessing their suffering must be quickly switched off. This makes true compassion difficult if not impossible.”

    http://www.amazon.com/Missionary-Position-Mother-Teresa-Practice/dp/1455523003

  • J

    GBFM had a brilliant takedown of players as being in complete opposition to Christ’s teachings, and they didn’t like him either.”

    A prophet is not without honor, except in his own land.

    GBFM is the fool-saint of teh interwebz. Google fool-saint if you don’t know what I mean.

  • INTJ

    GBFM is just GBFM. He’s so weird it’s impossible to categorize him.

  • OffTheCuff

    It’s quasi-Christian.

    Started off as secular analysis of divorce, and then he hit a nerve and found a larger Christian following with analyzing church culture. Like Escoffier, I don’t quite buy the argument that a man can have unmarried sex, but not women. If you’re Christian, they’re *both* sin and you have to repent otherwise you’re not forgiven. That attitude, from both men and women, are the main reasons why I deconverted.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    I realize that this post marginalizes the Coopers and the Kendras. Sorry about that.

    It isn’t the post that saddens me. It’s the fact that women interested in marriage already practice the post’s advice.

  • Escoffier

    Well, passer-by, if you want to have that argument all over again, fine with me, if Susan will allow it, but I specfically did not say that the women had no agency, I said over and over that they did. It doesn’t matter. To be a party to sin is to be a sinner, even if the other party is sinning too.

  • J

    @INTJ, JP

    Well, that’s disappointing, if true.

    There may be better examples, but my point that “doubting but doing” is better than sanctimony still stands.

  • JP

    @Passer-by:

    No, she knows that Current Cooper is being profoundly diminished by this post and thread.

    However, she’s just aiding the youth alliance in the coming massive intragender conflict over an older, more power, more sophisticated Future Cooper (due to the lack of adequate supply of Future Coopers) , which will pit the aging 28-33 year old women against the younger, more aggressive, 23-27 year old women.

    So, she’s helping Future Cooper so that the youthful women know that he’s a good catch.

  • Passer_By

    @escoffier

    “Well, passer-by, if you want to have that argument all over again . . .”

    I wasn’t actually part of the argument (I don’t think, maybe I was), so no I don’t want to have it. But it’s besides the point, really.

  • Ted D

    “So, she’s helping Future Cooper so that the youthful women know that he’s a good catch.”

    Ya know what? Tonight after I get dinner done (wife is working late tonight so I’m on kitchen duty) I’m going to pour a glass of wine and toast to Future Cooper! May he eventually reign supreme!

  • INTJ

    @ J

    There may be better examples, but my point that “doubting but doing” is better than sanctimony still stands.

    This allows the selfish to thrive. One has to hold others accountable.

    Do remember that Ted D holds himself to much higher standards than he holds others.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Khal Droga became a pussy at the end and let his wife boss him around too much, leading to his death. lol (Being somewhat facetious but there’s some truth to it too.)

    What do you think of Sam? I love that guy. I hope he doesn’t die in the next season and I hope he finds a girl. I love how he talks about missing girls, just looking at them since he never had any action.

    It pissed me off that both Ned and Khal Droga died though. At least keep Ned around–he was one of the best characters.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      What do you think of Sam? I love that guy. I hope he doesn’t die in the next season and I hope he finds a girl. I love how he talks about missing girls, just looking at them since he never had any action.

      He’s a sweetie pie, he would comment at HUS if he lived now. :)

      I like how he has earned the friendship and respect of his peers at the wall.

      You know who I think is the best looking male on the entire show, bar none? Isaac Hempstead-Wright. Look at this beautiful face:

      hw

  • INTJ

    Hey Cooper, what say we build a time machine and go beat up Future Cooper and Future INTJ for hogging all the girls?

  • JP

    “not unlike the subject of that article, James Hooker, also 41, not famous, and hooked up (smart) with an 18 year old girl who was hot for him, obviously not a ‘gold digger’ and now loves him to death.”

    Sometimes these relationships really are solid meaningful relationships for both people.

    They’re just unusual.

  • Ted D

    “Do remember that Ted D holds himself to much higher standards than he holds others.”

    My Lord I hope no one here is trying to use me as an example of holy or something. I looked back and still can’t figure out how my name got involved here, but I would like to point out that my opinion of myself couldn’t be further from “holy” unless I raped, pillaged, and murdered. I know I’m not “one of the good people” and I’m OK with it.

  • J

    @INTJ

    They were just following the tradition set by the Jews.

    And yet, despite the fact that the ancient Hebrews succeeded in a scenario that most guys can only fantasize about while playing WoW, there is so much anti-Semitism in the ‘sphere. ;-)

    Actually, killing the men and capturing the women was standard operating procedure in the ancient world–and not so uncommon today either.

    GBFM is just GBFM. He’s so weird it’s impossible to categorize him.

    You blaspheme, sir, you blaspheme.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    I don’t see the reason to wait for a guy to become a better catch if he is generally a good guy, has graduated college and is willing to have a relationship now. In market terms you want to buy when the price is low, and when your own purchasing power is the highest. In emotional terms you want to snag the guy before he gets older, pickier, more independent, acquires more baggage, and becomes more bitter. All the more reason for the girl in her 20s to go for a guy in his 20s.

    Lots of young guys don’t step up to the plate until they have a reason to do so. My husband was a dad’s basement dwelling video gamer who had a low paying job and still going to school when we met. In the 3 years we’ve been together, he got an apartment, graduated, got a good job, signed for the mortgage on the house, and became a father. Men don’t usually do things unless they see a compelling reason.

    In (video) game terms, “incentives matter.”

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I don’t see the reason to wait for a guy to become a better catch if he is generally a good guy, has graduated college and is willing to have a relationship now. In market terms you want to buy when the price is low, and when your own purchasing power is the highest.

      Cosign. I would NEVER advise women to turn a guy down for being the same age!

  • J

    INTJ,I’m confused. How did Ted get into this?

    Also, all the best to current and future INTJs and Coopers. Hang in there guys. I was a late bloomer myself.

  • JP

    “And yet, despite the fact that the ancient Hebrews succeeded in a scenario that most guys can only fantasize about while playing WoW, there is so much anti-Semitism in the ‘sphere.”

    The ancient Hebrews were also excellent at picking fights they couldn’t win and then not winning them.

  • Bully

    Speaking of Petraeus, I don’t understand the hating on his appearance. I get the feeling that he’s gone soft with age, but he looks better than most 60 year olds. He’s far from ugly, to the point where I ascribe anyone calling him such to a negative halo effect from the scandal, or maybe it’s just the OKCupid effect in play (80% of all men are below average, right)

    Holly was never a beauty queen but she at least looked acceptable in her youth. The big problem is that she didn’t even attempt to keep herself up. She didn’t play the cards she was dealt. She just folded. Subconsciously, most men know they’re not attractive, but they do their damndest to work with what they’ve got. When they see a woman not doing the same – especially a woman reaping the benefits of marriage and not contributing back – they get, understandably, riled.

    And Petraeus would look a lot more alpha if he didn’t have that “durr-hurr-hurrrr” goofy grin half the time. That shot of him shaking Paula’s hand makes him look like a goon.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      He’s far from ugly, to the point where I ascribe anyone calling him such to a negative halo effect from the scandal

      I find his looks very rodent-like. I’d say that without the ribbons he is a 3-4. He was not handsome as a young man, nor was Holly pretty as a young woman.

      Others may feel differently, of course.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    I do think you might broaden your age range to about 20 years instead of 5-10. Its far too easy to find layman’s (heh) examples of this dynamic to think it’s only about the rich and famous.

    I’m not wedded to a particular age – that’s up to women to decide. I’d be delighted if women would throw away their checklists and view the whole mating process with a fresh look – one that takes in the realities of the SMP.

    In this post I wanted to advise women to consider more men, and to deflate the prejudice against single guys in their 30s, which is hypocritical and unreasonable.

    I was inspired to write this post by a couple of women I know who are really, really enjoying relationships with men ten years older. They go on real dates, the men don’t drink to excess, they’re considerate lovers, etc. And the women have felt that these men appreciate their femininity. They are still getting drunk texted by guys their own age, and they have zero desire to go back to that scene.

  • JP

    Ted and INTJ have united to form the United Moral Alliance against Marginally or Improperly Moral People.

    I think.

    I could be wrong.

  • INTJ

    @ Ted D

    My Lord I hope no one here is trying to use me as an example of holy or something. I looked back and still can’t figure out how my name got involved here, but I would like to point out that my opinion of myself couldn’t be further from “holy” unless I raped, pillaged, and murdered. I know I’m not “one of the good people” and I’m OK with it.

    No I’m not talking about “holy”, but just having standards in general. I’m the bloody atheist, remember?

  • HanSolo

    @Ted D

    If you change your mind and want to do some vacations you should come visit me in Glacier Park! It’s such a peaceful beautiful place.

    http://bbs.crsky.com/1236983883/Mon_1101/25_187566_007f0766b402b4e.jpg

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @HanSolo

      Is that where you live?

  • Mike C

    @le biel I never thought I’d be happy to link to Rollo, but that post on desire is excellent.

    I saw the strangest thing at the mall. The Devil was there shopping for a winter coat. I asked him why and he said Hell just froze over :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I saw the strangest thing at the mall. The Devil was there shopping for a winter coat. I asked him why and he said Hell just froze over

      Rollo and I are making nice. I liked his post on the Mature Man as well. I welcome Rollo to the debate, I believe he is genuinely interested in sharing ideas.

      And he likes pimping RM here too. :)

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “I was inspired to write this post by a couple of women I know who are really, really enjoying relationships with men ten years older.”

    Are we talking 35 yo dating 25 yo here?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Are we talking 35 yo dating 25 yo here?

      No 23 and 33.

  • Ted D

    JP – so it would be the: UMAMIMP (pronounced you-ma’am-imp) Not catchy but it could work.

    But I don’t know if I want to be a member of any organization that would accept me as a member. :P (paraphrased of course. Was that Groucho Marx? )

  • JP

    @INTJ:

    “No I’m not talking about “holy”, but just having standards in general. I’m the bloody atheist, remember?”

    It’s too late to deny whatever it is that you’re denying here.

    You’re now a founding member of the United Moral Alliance.

    Remember, with great power comes great responsibility.

    Use your power with great care.

    Make Future INTJ proud.

  • Jackie

    @Game of Thrones Devotees

    @HanSolo: Are you trash-talking the Khaleesi?! :shock: Khal Drogo was the most awesome, devoted husband ever! And this is coming from someone who did not like him at ALL at first.

    (Now, Ser Jorah, that’s pretty much the definition of being friend-zoned!)
    ===
    @Emily– have you seen the actress that plays Cersei with her natural hair? She looks totally different? Same for Danaerys!
    ===
    I would love if we have a HUS GoT club, much like our earlier Austenite Appreciation Society. :mrgreen:

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Now, Ser Jorah, that’s pretty much the definition of being friend-zoned!

      Haha, yes indeed, I thought the same thing. I recently saw him in something else, playing a bad guy. It was very disconcerting.

  • Ted D

    HanSolo – Oh we’ll still vacation, but honestly I’m thinking something a bit more “long term” than two weeks in Europe.

    INTJ – “No I’m not talking about “holy”, but just having standards in general. I’m the bloody atheist, remember?”

    Just checking brother, just checking. After all, Susan was happy for a link to Rollo, and the devil is buying coats. I figured maybe you converted or something!

  • INTJ

    And yet, despite the fact that the ancient Hebrews succeeded in a scenario that most guys can only fantasize about while playing WoW, there is so much anti-Semitism in the ‘sphere. ;)

    Yeah it makes no sense.

    Actually, killing the men and capturing the women was standard operating procedure in the ancient world–and not so uncommon today either.

    There were plenty of civilized societies that didn’t practice this. But most of them got attacked, with the men getting killed and the women getting captured… :D Only a few civilizations managed to get strong enough every once in a while to overcome this barbarity.

    Seriously, while the manosphere can complain about the SMP today in comparison to the monogamy of recent history, they should remember that for much of ancient history omegas and deltas would have much bigger problems than getting laid. They’d be dead.

  • JP

    “Seriously, while the manosphere can complain about the SMP today in comparison to the monogamy of recent history, they should remember that for much of ancient history omegas and deltas would have much bigger problems than getting laid. They’d be dead.”

    There weren’t that many people in ancient history.

    There are seven billion today.

    The Roman Empire had…88 million?

  • Mike C

    Rollo and I are making nice. I liked his post on the Mature Man as well. I welcome Rollo to the debate, I believe he is genuinely interested in sharing ideas.

    Who are you, and what did you do with Susan Walsh? :)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Who are you, and what did you do with Susan Walsh?

      I hope that I am a fair person. Rollo has left several comments here in good faith. I view that as in invitation to interact and I accept it. I took him out of mod and I hope we can engage in productive discussion. We come from very different places and views, but I do believe that Rollo has men’s best interests at heart, and I respect that, even if I don’t care for some of his methods. I hope that feeling is mutual.

  • INTJ

    @ Rollo

    Holly was never a beauty queen but she at least looked acceptable in her youth.

    You’re kidding, right? This holly? You refer to that as “acceptable”? She’s very pretty!
    http://virginiavirtucon.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/holly-and-david-petraeus-young-at-west-point.jpg
    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1982&dat=19740708&id=GkJHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yjMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=887,1117605

    The big problem is that she didn’t even attempt to keep herself up. She didn’t play the cards she was dealt. She just folded. Subconsciously, most men know they’re not attractive, but they do their damndest to work with what they’ve got. When they see a woman not doing the same – especially a woman reaping the benefits of marriage and not contributing back – they get, understandably, riled.

    Could she have avoided gaining weight? Sure. But for a 60 y/o woman, she looks pretty damn good. Nothing to get riled about.

  • INTJ

    @ JP

    There weren’t that many people in ancient history.

    Not true.

    http://www.livescience.com/18336-human-population-dead-living-infographic.html

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Rollo

    There’s a reason, high school freshmen girls prefer senior boys over the boys in their class – the perception that they have a maturity and mastery of their element is attractive and arousing. They live in a different world that these girls would like to experience by association.

    Agreed. That’s also why I mentioned early in the post that commitment-avoidant guys often become less so after graduating from college, because they get knocked back to low man on the totem pole. The 22 year old senior who sees himself as too cool for school gets a shock when he arrives in the big city. Fewer options for him may mean some flexibility if the right girl comes along.

  • Cooper

    “So, she’s helping Future Cooper so that the youthful women know that he’s a good catch.”

    There’s literally no help required to “pit the aging 28-33 year old women against the younger, more aggressive, 23-27 year old women” by that time.
    It will just be.

    What gets me, is the fact that being willing to forego such a future advantage, now, has no merit. That makes it seem completely futile to think one can change ‘how it is,’ or chance being an exception. And that young men are right to slum-it-up in their twenties playing video-games, then wreck havoc on the SMP when they get their turn to. (Because by then, that’s what their view of all the guys with the options have been doing)

    @Susan
    There something about suggesting that girls “date-up” in age that just comes off, to me, as just promoting hypergamy.
    “If you can get ___, then why not have ____.”

    Idealistically, I can never offer more than a future Cooper. And there are future Coopers competing for the same girls as I currently am, always been always will be!
    So, if the girls can get them, why not? Right!? There’s no reason for them to undersell themselves.
    Well, where does that end? That’s like hypergamy to the extreme.
    “If you can get him, that means you can get someone even better!”

    A young guy, in fact no man, can ever win against “better.” With aging maturity, wealth, dominance, ect, you-name-it, there will always, always be better. It’s just in the early twenties the amount of “better” men is quite significant.
    But this is just the way it is. I’m not really looking to have a discussion in why reality is the way it is.

    @Hope #534
    Mmhmm. I wish more people saw it the way you do.

    I’ve been reading through the comments on Slate, under Rosin’s response to Fox’s article War on Men – where everyone there figures the best response to complianing men is to blame them further. And that the failing of Men today fall completely on the Men of today, themselves.

    And no one, at least there, has any empathy for anyone who might not put up their best fight in a battle that they stand no chance of winning.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      There something about suggesting that girls “date-up” in age that just comes off, to me, as just promoting hypergamy.
      “If you can get ___, then why not have ____.”

      But I’m saying the opposite! If you can’t get a guy 3.5 years older (the female preference), you might want to look at guys a bit older. What you give up in youth and vitality, you gain in other ways.

      Now, I realize that you are “gettable” – and you are a catch. The good news is that most women are not looking at older guys – as I said in the OP I have witnessed real resistance to this.

      I just think that it makes sense for every buyer to become acquainted with the full range of products. (JP will not like this market analogy.)

  • HanSolo

    @Passer_by and Jackie

    Speaking of the women promised the jihadists in heaven, here is a funny birthday card that my sister gave me. They weren’t quite what they expected:

    http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/486951_10151373595440579_804921786_n.jpg

  • INTJ

    @ Jackie

    I am surprised that SW’s BF or Sassy’s suitors did not call you out for a duel! ;)

    Thankfully they weren’t drunk. ;)

    This reminds me of another example of how history was unkind to beta males. The GF of the brilliant mathematician Galois made sure he got killed by having him fight a duel. Apparently in those days friend-zoning or dumping wasn’t enough punishment for nice guys.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    What gets me, is the fact that being willing to forego such a future advantage, now, has no merit. That makes it seem completely futile to think one can change ‘how it is,’ or chance being an exception. And that young men are right to slum-it-up in their twenties playing video-games, then wreck havoc on the SMP when they get their turn to. (Because by then, that’s what their view of all the guys with the options have been doing)

    My thoughts exactly.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And that young men are right to slum-it-up in their twenties playing video-games, then wreck havoc on the SMP when they get their turn to.

      Um, no. Those guys will not have the provider/income progression nor the social skills progression (charm and confidence) that you are gaining now. Women who want marriage and family aren’t looking at 32 year old slackers, they’re looking at men who have a promising future.

  • jrd

    Susan Walsh: “And he likes pimping”

    Indeed.

  • HanSolo

    @Zach

    Give it time to see if she loosens up and gets more flirty as she gets more comfortable.

    Is she introverted? If so, I bet with a bit more time she will open up more (assuming she’s not a true bore at heart) and you may just be the one to bring out her wild side. I’ve dated a few girls that over time by accepting her as she was and getting her to tell me her fantasies she gradually opened up and got to be more flirty and naughtily flirty but at first were more closed off and demure.

    I had a roommate too that dated a serious, smart girl and he loved to joke around. This pissed her off at first but they stuck together and gradually her prissiness wore off and she really loosened up and aquired a better taste for humor herself. The have been married for several years now.

  • Marc

    When I was in my teens and twenties, I would date women around my age. As I hit 28+, women my age became invisible to me. Actually, I cant even consider settling down just yet, as I cant date women young enough right now to satisfy the age gap that I am looking for. I am 33, and would like to marry a woman about 20 years younger than me.
    .
    I remember when I was younger, I used to see men with women who were 20 years younger, and thought “what a selfish asshole. Women live 8 years longer than men. This means he will leave her a widow for 30+ years, during a time when she has near zero dating value”. If he REALLY loved her, he wouldnt do that to her. (Michael Douglas). I have turned into this selfish prick!
    .
    Men need to always feel they have the young woman in their life. Someone for whom we can be a rock. Someone to protect. I cant speak for other men, but women my age dont give that feeling inside.
    .
    The younger woman, older man thing will always raise brows from both sexes due to jealousy. Guys want the young thing, and women wish they were the young thing again.
    .
    I just got back from Cancun for 10 days, and took down four girls there. (All at the same resort, drama. And yes, Im gross for this). They were all around my age. I had sex with them, but would consider a relationship with none of them. There is just no way I would a date a 27yo when teenagers are interested in me. BTW, 27 reads like the number 30 to me which is the kiss of death.
    .
    Disclaimer. I am American living in Colombia where it is normal for a 20yo to date or marry a 40yo for cultural reasons. I date gorgeous teenagers to whom I would be invisible in South Beach. But America does not have such a surplus of hot women with not enough men to go around. The imbalance is disgusting…………in a good way.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marc

      Actually, I cant even consider settling down just yet, as I cant date women young enough right now to satisfy the age gap that I am looking for. I am 33, and would like to marry a woman about 20 years younger than me.
      .

      This has got to be one of the weirdest comments ever left here!

      The younger woman, older man thing will always raise brows from both sexes due to jealousy. Guys want the young thing, and women wish they were the young thing again.

      I don’t think it’s jealousy. Most societies have strict rules or norms around age differences, and also when a woman is fair game for seduction. The truth is that without these mores, many men would have sex with females who are not yet adults.

      Obviously, you are the exact opposite of Zach, as conversation and compatibility appears not to interest you. You are most certainly not the man I recommend, lol. You should be filtered out of contention within seconds. I think it’s fair to say that any woman who marries you in future is a fool.

  • doomwolf

    @J

    “Here’s the paradox. People who believe themselves to be devout are generally merely sanctimonious. Those who worry about falling short are often more devout.”

    Strongly agree. The devout tend to be what I call “true believers”. It’s not meant as a compliment; they scare me. Fortunately the church I go to emphasizes the fact that we’re all broke, no one is perfect, and that that’s OK because it is normal. But I have run into my fair share of Christians who loudly proclaim how they are God’s servants, blessed be his name, etc & etc, yet they’re quick to condemn and not once have I ever seen their ilk working at a soup kitchen or similar. Speaking of which, got to run because that is literally where I need to be in 20-30 min.

  • Passer_By

    @cooper

    “So, if the girls can get them, why not? Right!? There’s no reason for them to undersell themselves. Well, where does that end? That’s like hypergamy to the extreme.”

    If he is willing to commit to her monogomously and perhaps get married, then he is her MMV equal, more or less. So, no, that’s not really hypergamy. It’s just people peaking in value at different ages. Coop, go find a 19 or 20 year old who wants a boyfriend. They are out there.

    Again, I look at my neices in various stages of college. They all have boyfriends, I think. The older one has been with the same guy (really really nice guy, by the way) for a few years. Maybe it’s different on the west coast, where not all the women are as hyper career focused as in the east coast cities.

  • HanSolo

    @Emily

    I think Cersei is beautiful but I think the brunette nurse that Rob Stark marries is beautiful too, in a good-girl kind of way, and Khaleesi is hot, and can’t remember any of them but probably a couple of the whores were too. lol

  • doomwolf

    @ Hans Solo

    +1 for the card

  • Lokland

    @GoT Fans

    Tyrion’s whore, now SO.
    The brunette that rob Stark marries.
    The red head fire chick who has smoke baby demons come out of her vagina.

    In that order.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    The good news is that most women are not looking at older guys – as I said in the OP I have witnessed real resistance to this.

    Only one problem. There’s a strong correlation between whether a woman is interested in temporary-LTRs or marriage and whether she goes after guys her age or older guys.

    Not to mention 3.5 years younger is barely legal for me here in
    Texas, and illegal in California… :(

  • Marc

    Another thing Id like to add, which I call the “Rob Lowe” syndrome. Rob married his wife when the were both about 30 and hot. Meanwhile, he has aged like wine and her like milk. They look ridiculous together. Regardless of his love for his wife, we all know Rob wants/deserves a hot, younger girl. And a woman DESERVES to have a husband who sees her as a hot, younger chick, and not someone who he may want to “trade in”.
    .
    Props to all girls. It isnt easy being a chick, hot or not. Father time works for us dudes. Not fair, I agree.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Marc

      They look ridiculous together. Regardless of his love for his wife, we all know Rob wants/deserves a hot, younger girl. And a woman DESERVES to have a husband who sees her as a hot, younger chick, and not someone who he may want to “trade in”.

      Is Rob Lowe a friend of yours? I wonder how you know that he wants to ditch his wife for a younger girl? Here they are in 2012:

      rl

      rl1

      Dude, methinks thou doth protest waaaaay too much.

  • Passer_By

    @jackie

    “I am surprised that SW’s BF or Sassy’s suitors did not call you out for a duel!”

    I thought I was rather complimentary. ;) I just thought it would be funny to one-up Sassy’s suitor in terms of archaic language. As to SW, well, I admit I got deliberately weird there. It’s easy to amuse oneself after a few glasses of wine.

  • INTJ

    @ Marc

    Disclaimer. I am American living in Colombia where it is normal for a 20yo to date or marry a 40yo for cultural reasons.

    Bah. John McAfee did much better than that…

  • jrd

    Marc: “we all know Rob wants/deserves a hot, younger girl”

    I can’t tell you how often I’ve thought the same thing.

  • Cooper

    “But I’m saying the opposite! If you can’t get a guy 3.5 years older (the female preference), you might want to look at guys a bit older. What you give up in youth and vitality, you gain in other ways.”

    If a woman can’t get the attention of men 3.5 years old, (which I find rather unlikely) then yes! She may need to look even older.

    But the same messege that tells a woman to look past 3.5yo if she isn’t gaining traction dating those men, it is also gets received by early-twenty girls (whom don’t have any problems receiving attention for older men) that they need not even concern themselves with men their age.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Cooper

      But the same messege that tells a woman to look past 3.5yo if she isn’t gaining traction dating those men, it is also gets received by early-twenty girls (whom don’t have any problems receiving attention for older men) that they need not even concern themselves with men their age.

      That’s not true! I said this:

      While you may not want to focus exclusively on older guys, I recommend that this be one strategy in your portfolio.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    Um, no. Those guys will not have the provider/income progression nor the social skills progression (charm and confidence) that you are gaining now. Women who want marriage and family aren’t looking at 32 year old slackers

    Just throwing it out there: gamers come in all shapes and sizes. For some reason they seem to get a bad rap in this part of the internet, and I’m not sure why. My brother and all his friends are gamers. Sure, a couple of them are slackers, but the vast majority of them are just about to finish school and many of them are quite intelligent and will do very well career-wise. I think there’s a “gamer stereotype” that gets passed around among people who don’t know very many gamers personally.

  • JP

    @Olive:

    “Just throwing it out there: gamers come in all shapes and sizes. For some reason they seem to get a bad rap in this part of the internet, and I’m not sure why. My brother and all his friends are gamers. Sure, a couple of them are slackers, but the vast majority of them are just about to finish school and many of them are quite intelligent and will do very well career-wise. I think there’s a “gamer stereotype” that gets passed around among people who don’t know very many gamers personally.”

    I’m pretty sure that I wasted way too much time on games, generally.

    If only I had not wasted my youth on games…I wish I could get those ten years of my life back (14-24).

    :(

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I think there’s a “gamer stereotype” that gets passed around among people who don’t know very many gamers personally.”

      Yes, this is true. Every time there is an “end of men” article written by either a male or female they refer to guys gaming in the basement and refusing to grow up. There’s nothing wrong with playing video games as a form of entertainment when work is done. :)

  • Bully

    @INTJ

    Maybe I should be flattered that you mistook me for Rollo. :)

    Yes, that’s the picture I was referring to. Yes, she’s.. “pretty”, insofar that she seems feminine enough, and she’s cute, and probably the type that a lot of college guys today would love to find but can’t. She’s not a 9 or 10 though on appearance alone.. saying so is overselling her. There’s a “girl next door” charm there.

    I really don’t want to enumerate what’s wrong with the older Holly, adding insult to already grievous injury, but since you brought up her becoming heavier with age.. if you’ll excuse the extremely unfortunate pun, weight is such a huge chunk of SMV that it’s very difficult to overlook. Yes, it’s just “one thing”, but that one thing means a lot, especially since the Gen appears to kept in shape.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Obviously, you are the exact opposite of Zach, as conversation and compatibility appears not to interest you. You are most certainly not the man I recommend, lol. You should be filtered out of contention within seconds. I think it’s fair to say that any woman who marries you in future is a fool.”

    But what about Future Marc?

    Future Marc might have more of a chance with the women once his SMV begins to rise with age and wisdom.

    Don’t count him out yet.

    :(

  • OffTheCuff

    Sue: “Most societies have strict rules or norms around age differences, and also when a woman is fair game for seduction. The truth is that without these mores, many men would have sex with females who are not yet adults.”

    Most societies also had mores about female chastity, too. Without those rules, many women would have sex with men who aren’t interested supporting their children!

    If those go, then why not the other?

    Rhetorical question…

  • INTJ

    @ Bully

    Maybe I should be flattered that you mistook me for Rollo.

    Hah! The double-“l” throws me off.

    Yes, that’s the picture I was referring to. Yes, she’s.. “pretty”, insofar that she seems feminine enough, and she’s cute, and probably the type that a lot of college guys today would love to find but can’t. She’s not a 9 or 10 though on appearance alone.. saying so is overselling her. There’s a “girl next door” charm there.

    Ah we’re in agreement about her looks then. I just found “acceptable” to be an understatement when talking about someone that “a lot of college guys today would love to find but can’t”. ;)

    I really don’t want to enumerate what’s wrong with the older Holly, adding insult to already grievous injury, but since you brought up her becoming heavier with age.. if you’ll excuse the extremely unfortunate pun, weight is such a huge chunk of SMV that it’s very difficult to overlook. Yes, it’s just “one thing”, but that one thing means a lot, especially since the Gen appears to kept in shape.

    Ahh fair enough. He definitely has done a much better job of keeping in shape than she has.

  • Bully

    Re: games: MMOs provided me an outlet to develop those cutthroat alpha social skills that I would otherwise have had no access to growing up. There’s a lot of benefits to gaming, especially the more social games such as WoW and its predecessors. It’s probably a far better use of time than, say, watching TV.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    JP,
    I dunno, my brother has created an entire social world around gaming, and to this day he is far more social than I’ve ever been (and I’m the extrovert too!). I have no doubt he chose computer science as his major in part because it was something with which he was already familiar, and now he’s got a sweet job/salary set up for next year. I don’t really think it’s been much of a waste.

  • INTJ

    Just Googled Rob Lowe. The son of a bitch cheated on and then later dumped Laura Ingalls. Uggh.

  • Bully

    Having been in a top end WoW guild for awhile (as in, top 50 in the US for progression) the amount of social maneuvering involved for the best loot and raid spots puts most corporations to shame.

  • jrd

    INTJ: “The son of a bitch cheated on and then later dumped Laura Ingalls.”

    That was around the time he filmed himself having a threesome with a 16-year-old girl.

  • Bully

    @Olive,

    If he was like me, then he started honing those computer skills at a very young age. The people making the most money in this tech industry are the Steve Jobs types that started working with computers before they reached puberty. It’s rather like music: it’s not something you just go to school for four years and master. It’s a lifelong endeavor that starts in early childhood.

  • BroHamlet

    @Cooper & Susan

    What does this leave <25yo men?

    What you lack in lifetime achievement you gain in proximity.

    Susan’s right. You have opportunities, it’s just a matter of making good on them. Cooper, you already know girls your age want to have fun, so there’s half the answer right there. Find the parts of yourself that make you most attractive to them at the stage they’re at, and play those up.

    But you may have to wait a couple of years for your SMV to increase
    Wait? Fuck that. No offense Susan, just sayin! Cooper, waiting should be the furthest thing from your mind. If you aren’t where you need to be to get what you want, make a plan and get there. A few things come to mind.

    1. Stay in the gym (if you aren’t hitting it hard already)
    2. Stop trying to get a girlfriend. Yes, really. When you can get more girls interested from jump, you can get a girlfriend.
    3. Is a girl more important that the things you are passionate about? Didn’t think so. If you have something you really love, I suggest you do a whole lot of it. They will notice, as long as it’s visible to them. But that’s not the point- you need to be doing it for you, not because there’s any attention in it. The less other people dictate any part of your happiness, the more they will want to be a part of your life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Wait? Fuck that. No offense Susan, just sayin! Cooper, waiting should be the furthest thing from your mind. If you aren’t where you need to be to get what you want, make a plan and get there.

      You’re right, you’re right! I take it back!

      Excellent advice from BroHamlet.

  • Tasmin

    “I just got back from Cancun for 10 days, and took down four girls there. (All at the same resort, drama. And yes, Im gross for this). They were all around my age. I had sex with them, but would consider a relationship with none of them. ”

    Ah vacation sex. So romantic. So empowering.

    “I think it’s fair to say that any woman who marries you in future is a fool.”

    For sure, but that fool will just be the end of a long line of fools by the time she walks down the isle. I just wonder where (if at all) on the foolish scale the men who will eventually marry one of those 4 women would fall…

    How Abbot of me. Perhaps its time to go for a run. :-)

  • JP

    We’ve already solved Cooper’s problem.

    Cooper simply needs to wait until he becomes Future Cooper.

    For Cooper, time isn’t an old bald cheater, rather, as per this post, time for those unfortunate males under 25, is more like SMV steroids.

    As he ages, like a fine wine, his awesomeness will increase somehow, as if by magic and he will be the target of a massive unplanned intragirl war, out of which he will emerge the victor and the older cohort of girls will lose, finding themselves relegated to men under the age of 25 in despair.

    I’m pretty sure that’s what will happen.

  • JP

    Has there been a post on the massive upcoming intragirl unplanned war for marital supremacy that will break out in the major metro areas in the coming decade?

  • INTJ

    @ Tasmin

    Lol. Haven’t seen Abbot around lately. Kinda miss him.

  • HanSolo

    @Jackie

    Not trash talking her. I’m trash talking him. His actions led directly to his death. By letting that guy cut him he got infected. Okay, now going to trash talk Khaleesi, she let the witch turn him into a vegetable and kill their baby.

    Not condoning his barbaric way of life but if he had stuck to that then none of that would have happened.

  • Passer_By

    @marc
    “I just got back from Cancun for 10 days, and took down four girls there. (All at the same resort, drama. And yes, Im gross for this). ”

    Nothing says “I’m a huge winner in life” like going onto the internet to brag to a bunch of anonymous strangers about sexual conquests.

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    Live nearby for the moment and my roots are from this area.

  • HanSolo

    Ser Jorah is pretty pussy whipped by her but so was Khal Drogo, eventually (though not as much as Jorah). But Ser Jorah is more cautious and has a badass side as well, just not around Daenarys. He’s more like a badass Vox beta who becomes a complete beta orbiter to her. Khal is the total alpha who isn’t used to being as cunning (as opposed to ruthless) and so once he stops being true to his alpha nature he fucks up way too much and dies because of it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Khal is the total alpha who isn’t used to being as cunning (as opposed to ruthless) and so once he stops being true to his alpha nature he fucks up way too much and dies because of it.

      Note that Khal, who was basically ass raping his wife, fell for her the minute she showed tenderness and requested intimacy.

  • J

    There’s trouble in Mr. Hooker’s paradise. His lover briefly left him after he was discovered to have had an earlier relationship with a minor student.
    I can’t imagine that this will last.

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-18/news/31363501_1_tv-station-sexual-relationship-jordan-powers

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      I hadn’t even read that James Hooker story, but now that I have I’m surprised Rollo held this up as an example of a good match with an age difference. It looks tawdry and sordid all around.

  • J

    Rob Lowe looks like he’s had some work, so I’m not sure that his naural physical condition is much better than that of the mother who gave him two sons and stuck with him through his drug issues.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Rob Lowe looks like he’s had some work, so I’m not sure that his naural physical condition is much better than that of the mother who gave him two sons and stuck with him through his drug issues.

      Yeah, I thought he looked sort of like he’s been put together with spare parts. I’d say there’s definitely a face lift there, maybe eye work as well.

  • http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.com Dan_Brodribb

    I’ve always noticed my perception of what an attractive age to date has always gone up as I aged. When I was in high school, every one over 18 was a cougar. When I was in my 20s I looked at other 20-somethings. When I was in my 30s…

    …actually my mid-thirties were all over the map. 22-40, if I recall correctly. But most consistently it was 29 year olds.

    Now I’m 39 and I’m dating another 39 year old and a 42 year old and I find them both attractive and sexy. This is the first time in quite a while I’ve dated people my own age and I actually like we have first-hand experience with the same bands, the same music.

    And I find the older people get, the more comfortable they are, both with their sexuality, but also with who they are as people. The sex is great, there’s honesty-without-drama and I find it really refreshing. It’s freeing not to have to impress anybody.

    I think when I was younger I had this perception that my life would be over once I hit 40 and the rest was a slow slide into oblivion. I’m not quite there, but so far it seems as though things are just as interesting and unpredictable as they were in previous decades.

  • INTJ

    Now I’m really feeling like I’m missing out with all this Game of Thrones stuff. Is it worth watching? Just how explicit is it? Seeing Lena Dunham naked all the time was annoying enough.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      GOT doesn’t have as much nudity, but what nudity there is is of considerably higher quality :)

      One of the reasons Girls had so many male fans was that it came on right after GOT.

      I look forward to season 2 of Girls, but I really hope not to see Lena Dunham’s boobs any more.

  • A Definite Beta Guy

    Here’s the thing about video gaming in college.

    College is boring and unchallenging.

    I am pretty sure I had undiagnosed depression in college. Most days I could barely drag myself out of bed, I could barely motivate myself to do work, and I would break down crying pretty much every day on the train.

    Despite this near-incomplete ability to function in the real world, I had nearly a 4.0 in college. It was that ridiculously simple. Even the high-level courses bored the crap out of me and I couldn’t help feeling contempt for my fellow students that fumbled even the simplest concepts.

    College was basically like Idiocracy for me. Which probably factored into my depression.

    Video games, on the other hand, are specifically designed to challenge you, and you get to accomplish “something” within the context of the story. TBH, I wouldn’t care if my entire college burned down and everyone died, but I would have moved heaven and Earth to save the galaxy from the Reapers.

    It also offered a lot of socialization from other people, especially those were marginalized by society. And they liked me. A lot. On the one internet forum I frequented, I was quote more than friggin Gandhi. And I got to lead groups of hundreds of people on raids, which was far more interesting than anything I learned in college.

    Once I started working full-time, in an actual interesting job, and was in a supervisory capacity on important projects…and once I had a decent real-life social network…my video gaming and online life dropped dramatically. HUS is the only place where I post now.

    I ran away to the Video Game World because the Real World had NOTHING to offer me.

    @ Cooper and INTJ

    College ends. Career starts. And then you know some game, too?
    It’s a totally different ball game.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    GoT is very worth watching. It has lots of T&A, and a very small amount of P&V (IIRC). Also, lots of gory violence and gratuitous sex. Just fast forward or get used to it. Naked women aren’t so bad to look at, especially the ones on GoT. ;)

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    GoT is very worth watching. It has lots of T&A, and a very small amount of P&V (IIRC). Also, lots of gory violence and gratuitous sex. Just fast forward or get used to it. Naked women aren’t so bad to look at, especially the ones on GoT.

    Cool I’ll get started on it then. I don’t care about the gory violence and gratuitous sex as long as it doesn’t take up the entire show. It’s just that the sex on TV tends to be a waste of time for me.

    Sometimes it really sucks to be demisexual… :(

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    “College is boring and unchallenging.

    I am pretty sure I had undiagnosed depression in college. Most days I could barely drag myself out of bed, I could barely motivate myself to do work, and I would break down crying pretty much every day on the train.”

    I know the feeling.
    I broke down crying in front of my RA a few times, pretty much told me to get lost. Asked if she could recommend me to the school psychologist three times, denied every time.

    ‘Every bodies stressed, you need to learn to handle the workload.’
    ‘I have a fucking 97% average and haven’t been to class in 2 months, WTF is wrong with you you dumb bitch?’

    “I ran away to the Video Game World because the Real World had NOTHING to offer me.”

    I did somewhat. I spent more time in the gym exercising and drinking (I was known for doing “work” and drinking wine at the same time, classy eh?) than I did on much else.

    Didn’t hold my peers in contempt so much as I blatantly ignored 8/10,
    1/10 I was blatantly rude too. Liked some other people.

    Life improved drastically after I moved out of a dormitory which was living hell.

    Just wanted to let you know, you were not alone. I know some others (all men, funny eh?) who were denied counselling and pretty much told to fuck off and man up.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      . I know some others (all men, funny eh?) who were denied counselling and pretty much told to fuck off and man up.

      That is outrageous.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    I really like Sam. I can’t wait for you to meet him (not associating you with him, I just like him). He starts out as a pussy but gradually gains some courage and self esteem.

    I watched it for free on the internet so you could just watch it right now.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    I really like Sam. I can’t wait for you to meet him (not associating you with him, I just like him). He starts out as a pussy but gradually gains some courage and self esteem.

    I watched it for free on the internet so you could just watch it right now.

    Yup. I tend to go through a spree of watching one TV series before watching another. Right now, I’ve finally watched all outstanding episodes of the new Doctor Who, and am starting to get bored of Stargate SG-1 again, so GoT has entered the slot for the next rotation. :D

  • Lokland

    @ADBG

    One other thing.
    Administrations are starting to realize the depression thing is VERY wide spread and starting to increase services to help people out.

    Won’t help you (which I doubt you need) but it will be less likely to happen to some other kid in 5 years.

  • INTJ

    In fact I think I’ll pull an all-nighter and watch Season 1 of Game of Thrones tonight while coding my research.

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Let me know what you think as you watch it. lol

  • HanSolo

    @Susan

    I agree that she definitely used some mad seduction girl game (i.e. her taking charge of things sexually) and tamed the wild stallion! Also, the looking in his eyes during sex helped, so yes, that is intimacy.

    I’m just saying that his taming did lead to his downfall in the show. But NAKDALT! lol In general, I would say his “betafication” made him even more attractive and suited for an LTR and in most cases wouldn’t lead to his death. It just did here. And INTJ, don’t read this. lol

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That is outrageous.”

    Somewhat tongue-in-cheek. (A lil bit.)

    I know a lot of people in general who have requested counselling to do with stress for a multitude of reasons and the departments are simply way understaffed. (Currently a 4 month wait for an appointment here.)

    I can show you two recent student surveys (separate uni’s) that ask are you depressed. One is in the 80% range, the other 70.

    Male mental health tends to get ignored more-so though. (Until this year, amen to Movember.)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Lokland

      I have heard similar stories re waits for counseling at American colleges. One woman wrote to me that she waited 6 weeks after describing herself as severely depressed. She was a freshman and got played by a cad, she was devastated. When she finally had the appointment, the psychologist asked about her problems and then said that the hookup scene was the number one reason kids gave for feeling depressed at school.

  • JP

    @ADBG:

    “Once I started working full-time, in an actual interesting job, and was in a supervisory capacity on important projects…and once I had a decent real-life social network…my video gaming and online life dropped dramatically. HUS is the only place where I post now.”

    I spent college pretty much withdrawn and depressed, although that was mostly an inability to cope with self-structured life.

    I never got to the interesting job stage or actual real-life social network phase of life, so I spend much of my time stressed about a career in which I have no interest or generally being bored out of my skull.

    My life peaked in either middle school or high school.

  • INTJ

    Well female depression is often easier to treat. You just have to be a good listener. Males on the other hand have a hard time talking about their problems.

    I have one friend who is quite depressed. He has expressed more than a few times that “There really is no point to life. A bullet to the head is the answer.” I have no clue how to help him.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      OMG, J will probably have a good concrete suggestion for dealing with your friend, but if you think he is really contemplating suicide I think you should alert his loved ones and urge him to talk to someone asap.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    Agree’d. Those times I cried to my RA.

    Didn’t have a girlfriend/ felt lonely/ felt like a loser for not getting laid consistently and I was living with 30 fuckin people. My problem should have been finding somewhere to jack off not loneliness.
    My blonde friend, cried to her a few times too. Same reason.

    Another big problem is the workload/ stress. An education where anything less than perfection leads to mcDonald’s tends to create a stressful experience.

    (I didn’t have this issue, I once spent 3 hours solving an incredibly complex inheritance problem from a couple years forward, while in a biology study group studying for an exam that evening. Whilst drinking a bottle of wine I might add. I went and asked my prof before the exam if my answer was right and he looked at me like I was nuts…. I was right though.)

    My B type personality wrt school was envied. Too bad most of it was fake. I stressed about my own issues.

    What they need (and will be getting soon) is more bodies with better training.
    They provide physical health care that is top notch, psychological care should come next.

    Then working on the root of the problems.

  • J

    not once have I ever seen their ilk working at a soup kitchen or similar. Speaking of which, got to run because that is literally where I need to be in 20-30 min.

    Good for you, Doomwolf!

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Lol you should put the “INTJ don’t read this” disclaimer at the top of the post. Luckily I have a keen eye and zeroed in on the mention of my name before I read anything else…

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    GOT doesn’t have as much nudity, but what nudity there is is of considerably higher quality :D

    Ah it’s all good then. Like I mentioned earlier, explicitness usually doesn’t do anything for me. Still, it’s always nice to appreciate the aesthetics. :D

  • Cooper

    @ABDG, Lokland

    *flash back, flash back*

    Oh, the stories. I don’t like thinking back to the campus days if I don’t have to.
    Lokland recently had mentioned the vast difference between the word College and University. I dropped out of my University Engineering program because the campus became hell on earth, to me. Despite having a fairly stellar social life, I wasn’t very happy. I spent time with tons of girl, usually getting walked over. My experiences ranged from one girl who was repulsed by my desire to make her my gf after a night of hooking up. Another let me take her out on legthy evening dinner dates, one time being to the starlit balcony of the yatch club, until I found out she was already regularly sleeping with a guy from my dorm. She said she has absolutely no idea I had romantic intensions. Mind you, this was after the former story so I was probably not escalating. (But, still! No idea! *scoff*) This is the part where I learned to ignore, cause it seemed all the girls wanted the validation of my attention, but not actually me.

    Luckily, colleges were happy to have me. And tons of employers, believe it or not, were very impressed by my acceptance to the prestigious program.

    Among the hell of Uni that was going through was also my parents exercising their control of my life via finances. As my grades began to reflext my social life, my parent began trying to dictate my social life. I finally had to play the card they said I wouldn’t dare to – I got a job, and moved away.

    That was 5years ago. Ever since I’ve been much happier with my life. I’ve been working, supporting myself ever since. My relationship with my parents complete rebounded. I managed to be as independent as I wanted. And return to college.

    Fun fact: I went to a private (co-ed) boarding school.

  • Tom

    Bully
    “Slow aging body” is kind of a silly way of putting it, but weight lifting /does/ increase testosterone which prevents age from showing. He’s not really off the mark.
    ____________
    Yes weightlifting is sort of the fountian of youth. It does keep the testosterone flowing.
    As for the aging gracfully part. Some people do while others do not. Part genitic, part life style, part attitude. Ive seen men @ late 70`s that you would guess to be @ 60, and some men at 65 look and act 78.
    Before I met my fiance I had early 30`s sniffing around. They “thought” I was @ 42. Women sure are a lot different now then when I was 35.

  • JP

    I deal with the suicidal/depressed all the time.

    However, it makes the legal case better the *more* psychiatric hospitalizations they have.

    I’ve had two cases where the attempts at suicide failed. One guy tried to shoot himself in the heart and missed.

    @INTJ:

    “I have one friend who is quite depressed. He has expressed more than a few times that “There really is no point to life. A bullet to the head is the answer.” I have no clue how to help him.”

    Referral to a psychiatrist/therapist? I tell people “you will get mental health care” all the time, but then again they want to get disability benefits so they actually listen to me.

  • Just1Z

    @intj
    for your buddy
    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.ie/2012/10/kill-inner-beta-before-he-kills-you.html

    now that is not a happy-bunny read, BUT it does make an argument for sticking around. a logical, reasonable, workable one. get him to read the whole thing, but here is an excerpt

    if you’re to the point you’re kicking around suicide, chances are you REALLY DO have nothing to live for. I believe you.

    But (and here’s the kicker) you have no compelling reason to die either.

    Say life is really bad. Really, really bad. You have no reason to live.

    Well join the club.

    You’re certianly not alone. It’s not like there aren’t 100 million American adult males who aren’t in your same situation. Just because you don’t have anything to live for BASED ON TRADITIONAL DEFINITIONS OF WHAT YOU SHOULD LIVE FOR doesn’t mean there isn’t stuff you can’t do.

    So you don’t have a career. That’s just more free time.
    So you don’t have a family. That’s just more disposable income, freetime and a zero percent chance of getting divorced..
    So the country is going down the toilet. Collect a welfare check with no guilt and while you still can.

    The solution is not to kill yourself. The solution is to

    1. Forgive yourself and realize it is not your fault you don’t have a future or life didn’t turn out the way you hoped it would
    2. Change your mentality from what you “want” to what you “can get.” ie-realize the environment has changed and adapt to it mentally and physically (becuase you have no other choice).
    3. Live the rest of your days doing that while you have the opportunity to do it and make the best of it.

    Second, at least change your environment before you try to commit suicide. Go overseas, live overseas, do something. Changing your environment will at least get you out of the environment where you thought it was hopeless. Usually when people contemplate suicide it means they think it isn’t worth living HERE in THIS PARTICULAR ENVIRONMENT. So the least you can do before you off yourself is give a try at another life. Stop paying your mortgage, amass as much money as you can, and leave.

    Besides, what’s the worst that can happen? They “repossess” your house? Your wife leaves you? Your credit tanks and you can’t find another job? You were just considering suicide a couple minutes ago.

    Third, there is so much to do and see on this planet. My fossil hunting, mountain climbing, motorcycling, writing, ballroom dancing, tornado chasing is not by accident. Like most men, I too was at the precipice one time of suicide. Nothing serious, but the thought did enter my mind and my mind said, “well before we go, we gotta do all this stuff then” and boom, my life became much more interesting. I abandoned my career and women as my primary motivators in life and pursued fun. It was almost as if experiencing enough pain to think about suicide was a benefit because it put things in context and made me not just change my life for the better, but change my life so it fit into reality.

    You too may as well go and do what you want. Go to Italy, get into race car driving, eat ice cream, breed wiener dogs, whatever you want to do. Because once you pull that trigger, it’s not like you can go back and decide to start taking hang-gliding up as a hobby.

  • Cooper

    @INTJ
    I’ve been on both sides of conversation like that. In both scenario, either I or another person, couldn’t come up with anything more than ‘keep your chin up’ or things that sounds awfully close to “man up” when on the receiving end.

  • INTJ

    @ Cooper

    Yeah that’s pretty much I’ve been defaulting to.

    Recently he’s been feeling a bit better though. He has finally found an area of interest in his major.

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    Game of Thrones episode 1 here I come!

  • Lokland

    @Coop

    Dorm life was hell for me as well.
    Americans do it for four years. We do it for one. Small miracles.

    My first year was much the same as yours, used and abused by pretty much every woman. After that I got pissed and life got good.

    Given the choice between used and user, user is always better.

    By the end I mellowed out and started dating some nice girls who were both into ME and pleasant to be around.
    Also stopped drinking (mostly), smoking and a few other unmentionables.

    Excising parental control is a necessity in succeeding with woman. (INTJ, this applies to you.) I was an absolutely awful teenager, me and my father spent most of our time trying to kill each other. Both of my parents were overbearing and over-protective. The more protective the more violent the exorcism must be. (I left at 18, told them to fuck off and never speak to me again etc. Didn’t talk to them till I was 21.)

    I built a boat with him last summer. Only pulled a Homer-Bart choking incident once. After pulling away, you get to walk back by your own design.

  • Lokland

    @INTJ

    Suicide.

    If he actually wanted to be dead he already would be.

    The fact that he is still alive tends to mean he sees a future that gets brighter.
    As a general rule, uni, for a smart and not pretty guy, living in a dorm is torturous hell.

    Surrounded by a bunch of people going at it like rabbits and being totally excluded is depressing. (While being unaware of all those who are not.) It gets far easier to ignore the unrestricted crowd when you don’t have to hear them every night.
    Top on to that the inability of an undergraduate degree failing to stimulate much beyond an IQ of 11 and its a recipe for depression.

    I worked on other more important things…

  • Just1Z

    I wonder what the women here think of the Cappy Cap link?

    I suspect that it is a pretty male specific outlook that is required to appreciate it. there’s little sympathy in it, just reasons. probably pretty topsy-turvy compared to a female method of help…?

    his way of thinking is pretty well aligned with mine, I reckon.

  • Bully

    Personally, I would like to see a study that measures the amount of testosterone a 45 year old power lifter is carrying around compared to a 21 year old nonathletic college student. Weight lifting increases your T, but precisely how much is sort of an X factor.

  • Just1Z

    @lokland
    The fact that he is still alive tends to mean he sees a future that gets brighter.

    I would not agree with you there. That is not necessarily true in my experience. I would err on the side of helping him more than assuming that he’s going to be fine. it could just be lack of opportunity…why not give him a nudge in a healthier direction? Cappy Cap doesn’t rely on optimism, more ‘why not try something else, what’s the worst that could happen?’. that can get through

    late here – g’night

  • Just1Z

    @Bully
    I believe that T levels are dropping through the generations. the results of your proposed test might be interesting & surprising IDK

  • Lokland

    @J1Z

    Agreed.
    I think the advice is excellent. Reads to me very well.

    I do however think that its their responsibility to pull themselves out of it. The most we can do is provide them strategies.

  • Ramble

    I’m not sure that his naural physical condition is much better than that of the mother who gave him two sons and stuck with him through his drug issues.

    I believe that Robert Downey Jr is in a similar boat. I remember reading in an interview that his wife runs everything in his life, and he is more than OK with that.

    There have been quite a few guys like that who had hell raising teens and 20s and then keep with, or settle down with a woman who can help keep them balanced.

  • JP

    @INTJ:

    “Recently he’s been feeling a bit better though. He has finally found an area of interest in his major.”

    He could always try to have a fasting vision and see what happens.

    I believe that the fasting induces a natural hallucination.

    At least that’s an interesting experience.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_quest

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com Bastiat Blogger

    Sometimes the arguments for shaming players in the SMP remind me of the arguments for banning short-sellers during an asset price bubble. Perhaps both groups serve (via self-interest, of course) as mechanisms for efficient price discovery…?

  • INTJ

    @ HanSolo

    So some quick character evaluations from the first episode. Obviously mister “I’ll let 40,000 soldiers and their horses fuck you to regain our dad’s kingdom” is as despicable as the characters get. The incestuous Lannisters aren’t much better. The Stark family seems like a decent group. Aside from how they treat the poor bastard guy. The little kid needed better survival instincts though… Oh and the Lannister dwarf is pretty freaking cool, even if he has nothing better to do than to fuck a bunch of whores.

    Seems like an interesting start to the show. We’ll see how

  • INTJ

    * We’ll see how I react to episode 2. :D

  • HanSolo

    @INTJ

    Yeah, Targarian brother is a tool! lol Tyrion (the dwarf) is pretty awesome. It will get better as you move into the 2nd and 3rd episodes I think.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    I believe that the fasting induces a natural hallucination.

    Oof, I had a natural hallucination once (lack of sleep does it). Worst experience of my life, can’t recommend it.

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    OMG, J will probably have a good concrete suggestion for dealing with your friend, but if you think he is really contemplating suicide I think you should alert his loved ones and urge him to talk to someone asap.

    No I don’t think he’s contemplating suicide. But I do think he is quite depressed and is (or at least was) basically asking for help when he made those statements. I couldn’t provide as much help as I liked.

    As for loved ones, I’m probably closer to him than any of his family. :(

  • doomwolf

    “As for loved ones, I’m probably closer to him than any of his family.”

    We wonders if that is part of the problem. I hope things turn around for him soon.

  • Jackie

    Oof, some very heavy stuff in the comments. :( I just want to say if people are ever going through this, I hope they will post here to get support and a compassionate ear. Depression is the absolute worst. :(

    INTJ, is your friend getting enough sunlight (one of those lamps can make a difference)? Also, enough exercise and decent food? Endorphins are worth their weight in gold (to me at least). I hope all goes well and he gets better soon.

    You are a good friend. :)

  • doomwolf

    *Me

    NB-Not judging any side here, just observing that not being close to your family must be a horribly lonely experience.

  • Jackie

    @Coop

    Cooper, I just got back from the gym and I saw a guy there who reminded me of you.

    Do you want to know what my first impression of him was? He looked like a cool guy who had it all together– the kind who has to beat away the chicks with a stick! ;) It was only when he was in my way at the door that I could tell that social interaction was not the most natural thing for him.

    All I’m saying is, I bet you make a really great impression. I just think you’ve got to get with a nicer (trans: more restricted) class of girls!

    Settlers of Catan! Settlers of Catan! Board game girls are awesome, if I do say so myself. ;)

  • Jackie

    @INTJ

    You know, I would keep a hopeline phone number on hand, just in case, for your friend. Anyone can call, they are staffed 24/7

    1 800 SUICIDE or
    1 800 273 TALK

    Life is very hard but very precious. Please help your friend stick around, INTJ.

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    INTJ,
    A quick note, in case your friend ever mentions suicide again: generally, there should be cause for alarm if someone indicates intentions of a plan. In other words, if your friend says something about a bullet through the head and he has a gun lying around, then yeah you probably want to alert someone.

    Otherwise, tread lightly. Realize that if he talks to a professional, they will most likely push medication. It’s not the worst thing in the world (it works well for my dad, who is unbearably difficult to speak to without it), but it’s not right for everyone. A lot of people think that therapy and medication will solve all of someone’s problems, but I’ve found that it’s extremely difficult to find a competent therapist, and I know myself and know what I need better than anyone else anyway.

    Also, my BF has dealt with depression and says that getting out into the world and doing stuff is what helps him work through it.

  • Joe

    INTJ, is your friend getting enough sunlight (one of those lamps can make a difference)?

    Related, vitamin D can make a huge difference too. I didn’t realize that I had a vitamin D deficiency, caused by too many months of no sunlight. Damn those offices without windows and routine 11 hour days!

    A simple over-the-counter daily dose made a lot of difference.

  • OffTheCuff

    JD: “Referral to a psychiatrist/therapist? I tell people “you will get mental health care” all the time, but then again they want to get disability benefits so they actually listen to me.”

    Won’t happen. People will only give a crap about if you if you make *their* lives miserable – if you’re the quiet, withdrawn kind of depressive, you’ll just off yourself and nobody will even blink.

    INTJ… your friend needs to piss someone off to get help. Your only move is to provoke him.

  • Jackie

    Game of Thrones

    We just finished a “Black Friday” event at the Humane Society, where we are trying to adopt out as many animals as we can. The latest batch of newbies were named by the vet techs– all GoT characters! :mrgreen:

    There was this enormous 24-lb cat that was Khal Drogo and a dainty butterscotch named Khaleesi; there was a Cersei (who was, sorry to say, a huge witch) and a Jaimie from the same litter (put in cages FAR away from each other!), there was a Stark Family of kittens with the odd-colored one named Jon Snow. The meanest, nastiest and yappiest Siamese was named “Joffrey”– ha ha ha! Most people coming in don’t know GoT and were like :shock:

    But the people who do follow the series were bursting out laughing every time a new “House” of animals came up to the adoption floor. :)

  • SayWhaat

    Breaking news trending on Reddit right now:

    LADIES PREFER THIN OVER MACHO

    Macho features have long been touted as an evolutionary asset that heterosexual women look for in a potential mate. But new research suggests weight may be a more powerful driver of attraction.

    Macho features such as a strong jaw and squinty eyes advertise that a guy possesses high testosterone, according to the immunocompetence handicap hypothesis. Since high levels of this masculinizing hormone interfere with the immune system, the theory goes, macho men must be extra-fit to withstand the handicap their extra testosterone confers.

    However, a new study finds that while women do respond more favorably to the faces and bodies of men with strong immune responses, they seem to cue into fatness and thinness, not macho features, when making their judgments.

    http://news.discovery.com/human/women-prefer-thin-men-121128.html

    lol

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @SayWhaat

      I saw that and cracked up. The whole high-T represents strong immunity hypothesis is out the window!

  • INTJ

    Fucking pieces of shit. Wouldn’t it be nice if the shallow prince and princess got together and left everyone else alone? But no. They have to cause havoc with everyone else. With a little help from the evil Queen of course. However, that dwarf gets cooler with each episode. The dire wolves are also pretty badass. And Arya is so cute. I hope some day I have a daughter like her. :)

    Well now the plot has roped me in, so I’m going to watch episode 3. :D

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “P.S. If you want to engage in some degrading “exotification” of my magnificent, circumcised, steely, vanilla cock, well, knock yourself out. I can handle it. No offense taken.”

    OK so my references and humor went over the heads of everyone here, even my fellow Desis? Super-altern much?

    Yeah, men are very comfortable being exotified, while women are not.

  • INTJ

    @ SayWhaat

    Hmm I need to find myself a Latvian girl.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    150 deti November 27, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Hope:

    I’m not here to gain points with the manosphere. I’m pointing out a sentiment. I’m also pointing out that a sizable number of the men in the 80%, the betas, deltas and gammas, and the BETAs Susan says she wants women to meet, date and marry, are going to resemble Perelman physically (short, fat and physically unattractive) even if they don’t resemble his personality.

    I am down with this, and I’m down with Susan’s goal. But calling such men fat and ugly, and how his wives wouldn’t put out for him and that’s why he keeps getting divorced, probably isn’t going to help attract many women to men like this.

    —-

    Those men will have to get on a fitness regimen and put some effort into looking their best before women will become attracted to them anyway.

    Whether or not Susan or anyone else here calls such men fat and ugly makes no difference. We all have eyes.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “Well female depression is often easier to treat. You just have to be a good listener. ”

    Wow. Just wow.

    Did anyone here catch that ridiculous comment?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      “Well female depression is often easier to treat. You just have to be a good listener.

      Did anyone here catch that ridiculous comment?”

      Yes, I did. I assume it reflects ignorance rather than malice.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “The truth is that without these mores, many men would have sex with females who are not yet adults. ”

    Interesting. I wonder if its true. If so, that’s pretty damn sick.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    @Zach

    “So basically I don’t like the party girls because they’re not intellectual enough, and I don’t like the intellectual girls because they’re not sexual enough. I’m f*cked.”

    Susan,

    “Don’t make assumptions about the conservative girl. She may turn out to be a wildcat once you clear her filters for comfort and intimacy.”

    To be fair, Zach said “intellectual” not “conservative”. Two entirely different characteristics.

  • Bully

    @SayWhaat

    Unfortunately, unless calibrated against the woman’s menstrual cycles, that doesn’t mean anything.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Unfortunately, unless calibrated against the woman’s menstrual cycles, that doesn’t mean anything.

      This statement is false. Women’s preferences do not do a 180 during ovulation. Sexual desire increases, and a woman who is not attracted to her partner will fantasize about extra-pair sex.

      The claims about women wanting hypermasculine men during ovulation are bogus.

  • Iggles

    @ Passer_By:

    @marc
    “I just got back from Cancun for 10 days, and took down four girls there. (All at the same resort, drama. And yes, Im gross for this). ”

    Nothing says “I’m a huge winner in life” like going onto the internet to brag to a bunch of anonymous strangers about sexual conquests.

    It always make me chuckle when guys on HUS take these type of comments at face value.

    Good to see not everyone is drinking the kool aid ;-)

  • INTJ

    Sure there’s all the geopolitical battles going on, but I just hope that Arya gets to avenge the butcher’s son by slaying the Prince.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    I missed the part about Mother Theresa but here;

    http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/mother-teresa-defended-notorious-paedophile-priest-nelson-jones/

    And from the pen of a fellow Calcutta dweller, Mother Teresa, The Final Verdict:

    Mother Teresa once made me cry. The year was 1988 – I was on one of my frequent holidays or visits to Calcutta from Britain, where I had moved to in 1985. I was standing by the kerb-side in Gariahat Morr, munching on a famous ‘mutton roll’. I was looking at scenes I had grown up with – pavements almost obliterated by shops, people having to weave their way through hawkers peddling their fares; buses tilted to one side by the sheer weight of passengers and belching out black diesel smoke, trams waiting for a manual change of tracks before they could turn, the familiar neon sign of an astrologer.

    In the midst of all this I remembered the ‘Calcutta’ of the West – Calcutta the metaphor, not the city. In my three years in the West I had come to realise that the city had become synonymous with the worst of human suffering and degradation in the eyes of the world. I read and heard again and again that Calcutta contained an endless number of ‘sewers and gutters’ where an endless number of dead and dying people lay – but not for long – as ‘roving angels’ in the shape of the followers of a certain nun would come along looking for them. Then they would whisk them away in their smart ambulances. As in my twenty-seven years in Calcutta I had never seen such a scene, (and neither have I met a Calcuttan who has), it hurt me deeply that such a wrong stereotype had become permanently ingrained in world psyche. I felt suddenly overwhelmingly sad that a city, indeed an entire culture should be continuously insulted in this way.

    I am Calcuttan born and bred, and our family has lived in the city for as long as can be traced. I know Calcutta well, and many people who matter there, and many more who do not. I do not have Calcutta ‘in my blood’, but the place has definitely made me what I am, warts and all. My mother tongue is Bengali, the language of Calcutta, but I speak Hindi passably, which is spoken by a large number of the destitutes of Calcutta.

    I had no interest whatsoever in Mother Teresa before I came to England. Difficult it may seem to a Westerner to comprehend, but she was not a significant entity in Calcutta in her lifetime; paradoxically posthumously her image has risen significantly there – primarily because of the Indian need to emulate the West in many unimportant matters.

    More here;

    http://www.meteorbooks.com/introduction.html

    And this is significant to repeat;

    “Difficult it may seem to a Westerner to comprehend, but SHE WAS NOT A SIGNIFICANT ENTITY IN CALCUTTA in her lifetime…”

  • INTJ

    Lol Sam aka “I yield I yield I yield!” just made his entrance.

  • Ramble

    Related, vitamin D can make a huge difference too. I didn’t realize that I had a vitamin D deficiency, caused by too many months of no sunlight. Damn those offices without windows and routine 11 hour days!

    Or simply cook with real lard…or eat more bacon.

    Outside of Cod Liver Oil, Lard (and other fatty pork products, like Bacon) is the best source of Vitamin D.

    Lucky for us, the west demonized fat and fatty foods and Pork, at least in America, has been bread over the last 40 years to be leaner and leaner.

    (BTW, Sunlight and Animal-based Vitamin D are not the same. Both are good, but animal based Vitamin D is a very important nutrient.)

  • J

    OMG, J will probably have a good concrete suggestion for dealing with your friend, but if you think he is really contemplating suicide I think you should alert his loved ones and urge him to talk to someone asap.

    That’s a hard one to answer, mostly because it’s hard to diagnose depression over the internet. Having an existential crisis or being sad and upset are not the same as clinical depression. Grief is not necesarily depression either.

    The first step IMO is a trip to a primary physician. Loads of physical problems, like a vitamin D deficiency or seasonal affect disease as mentioned above, can manifest as depression. So can some infections. At any rate, a primary physician can weed out physical issues, come up with a provisional diagnosis and refer the patient on to appropriate help if needed. That could be talk therapy, drugs or some combination of the two.
    In the meantime, things like exercise, conversation, emotional support, good food, fresh air, sleep, and laying off alcohol do help.

    Wavevector offered a good example of how to be emotionally supportive when he was talking the other day about relating to his wife. I think that men like to problem solve for other people; they think that they are most helpful when they are fixing things for others. Dealing with depression requires supportive listening as opposed to advice giving or cheering people on. No “Dude, you should just do such and such” or “Buck up, man.” It’s more like listening, asking questions, not judging, not invalidating feelings, and not advising.

    I hope all works out well for your friend, INTJ. You’re a good guy for reaching out to him.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    Doc,
    “I’ll stick with 18-25… Why? Because that is the age range I find most attractive, and since I’m the one doing the work, it’s up to me to choose my target. When women are doing the hunting, they can do the choosing – till then, it’s a man’s prerogative… ”

    LOL!!! Its a woman’s prerogative to reject yo’ ass too.

    ***

    Jackie November 28, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    @Esco

    “I said much the same thing at Dalrock’s–that players need to be shamed along with sluts–and the religious party came after me as if I were the anti-Christ. It was quite strange to read all these avowedly devout people get angry at me for saying that the player lifestyle is immoral.”
    ====
    :shock:

    Esco, what scriptural authority did they give for this reasoning? Because Christianity has one standard and it has been this way for hundreds and hundreds of years!

    I asked Desi the same question this summer, when it came up with the girl he met at the pool. No one has given me a concrete answer yet. :(

    >>> Jackie, they said that Biblical “adultery” only applies to the wife, not the husband. They also said that pre-marital sex between two single people is never specifically addressed in the Bible, so its ok. However, the woman’s “bride price” goes down if she’s not a virgin when she does marry.

  • J

    “Well female depression is often easier to treat. You just have to be a good listener. ”

    It depends on what is meant by depression–feeling low emotionally or full blown bio-chemical clinincal depression. I’m not aware of any difference in cure rates for clinical depression treated with medication. I do know that women are more likely than men to have their depression treated either with talk therapies or with medication. Men are more likely to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol or to act out in socially unacceptable ways instead of seeking treatment.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    Rollo,
    “60 year old David Petraeus and 41 (sic) year old Rupert Sanders disagree with you. Obviously they’re outliers, but the principle is the same. Male maturity is perceptually Alpha for women.”gold-diggers and whores.”

    Those were affairs. Young, single women under 35 who are looking for potential husbands to have babies with and build a life together normally do not target men in their 50s for good reason.

  • J

    they said that Biblical “adultery” only applies to the wife, not the husband.

    Technically, that’s true. In an polygamous society like that of the ancient Hebrews, a man can not commit adultery with a single woman since she is a potential wife. Male adultery involves sex with someone else’s wife or betroved.

    They also said that pre-marital sex between two single people is never specifically addressed in the Bible, so its ok.

    The Bible also assumes that a man acquires a wife through intercourse. If he refuses to formally marry her, he still owes the bride price. There was no “free’ love.

    However, the woman’s “bride price” goes down if she’s not a virgin when she does marry.

    But she probably also is “double-dipping.” The man who deflowers her compensates the family for the loss of her virginity; the man she marries should the first man refuse her pays the price one would pay for a widow or divorcee.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “The Bible also assumes that a man acquires a wife through intercourse.”

    Or rape, don’t forget that one.

    Thank the gods I’m not a “person of the book”.

  • J

    Well, rape involves intercourse and lowers the bride price. It also makes it harder for the victim to find a husband. Marriage was seen as a sort of reparation. The rapist had to offer marriage, but if he was refused, he still owed the bride price. If he was not refused, he forfeited the right to divorce.

    I wouldn’t feel too superior about not being a person of the book. India has purdah and sati.

  • Bully

    Doh. I completely glossed over the fertility note in the link. My bad. :/

  • Bully

    @Gayatri

    If a woman needs resources to raise a child she well might look for older men, though. The fact that his time might be shorter might well be compensated by the ease of resources. Just because the man is older does not mean the child would not be taken care of, one way or another. The age of the man isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive with the child being provided for, whether it’s through energy (younger dad) or resources (older dad). About the only to consider would be the greater possibility of defects with the older dad.

    I don’t know if bringing up Briffault’s Law is verboten here or not, but in both cases, the woman is benefitting, just in different ways. Whichever way the woman chooses might lie to the individual woman.

  • Bully

    Especially when you consider my point from earlier that without an inheritance or extreme luck, resources and youth ARE pretty mutually exclusive.

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “I wouldn’t feel too superior about not being a person of the book. India has purdah and sati.”

    Don’t forget caste, cows and curry.

    Puh-leeze lady, purdah is a Muslim thing (your sister-religion) and Sati is the name of a goddess.

    You were saying?

  • Gayatri Spivak

    “I don’t know if bringing up Briffault’s Law is verboten here or not, but in both cases, the woman is benefitting, just in different ways. Whichever way the woman chooses might lie to the individual woman.”

    And like I already said, MOST individual women choose NOT to marry and have children with much older men.

  • ExNewYorker

    “Settlers of Catan! Settlers of Catan! Board game girls are awesome, if I do say so myself. “

    I’ve hung around tons of gamer guys, their partners, friends, families, and all that, and the only two women who ever liked playing Settlers of Catan were: 1) one woman who was more masculine than 50% of the guys in the game, and 2) a married woman who only played so she could give her husband good deals on trades.

  • szopen

    I like the “HUSsar” neologism creted by Jackie :)

    Ted D, the Polish winged HUSsar

    BTW, St. Andrew’s tomorrow. Hey single girls, have you started to predict the name of future SO yet? Magical night is tomorrow :)

    (And if you poor anglo-saxon don’t know the customs, you should start learning already)

  • szopen

    Uhmm.. I mean magical night is TONIGHT – 29/30. It’s because My daughter has a party tomorrow I got confused.

  • Just1Z

    Lying again peej

    time for your meds, you’re babbling again

    The burning of wives on the funeral pyres of their husbands, widow-burning, commonly known as sati (“suttee” in English), has been practiced in India since at least the fourth century B.C.E. , when it was first recorded in Greek accounts. It was banned by British colonial law in 1829–1830 and survived in the native Indian states until the late 1880s, when it was effectively eradicated, although extremely rare cases persisted into the early twentieth century. Since India’s independence in 1947—or more precisely since 1943—there has been a spectacular revival of the phenomenon in four Northern Indian states: Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, and especially Rajasthan, a former stronghold of sati. Although the number of women who have committed sati since that date likely does not exceed forty (with thirty in Rajasthan alone), an infinitesimal percentage of the female population, the reactivation of the practice has had considerable social and political impact, especially in the case of the “Deorala affair”—the burning of a young Rajput widow named Rup Kanwar in Rajasthan in September 1987. The nationwide trauma that followed this incident and the media coverage it received (in contrast to the relative indifference shown to the other cases) led the federal government to take legal action, issuing the Sati Commission (Prevention) Act a year later.

  • Just1Z

    http://www.deathreference.com/Vi-Z/Widow-Burning.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_James_Napier

    A story for which Napier is often noted involved Hindu priests complaining to him about the prohibition of Sati by British authorities. This was the custom of burning a widow alive on the funeral pyre of her husband. As first recounted by his brother William, he replied:
    “Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.”

  • Just1Z

    and Peej, the reason that you are repeatedly banned is because you:
    1) make a few sane comments – people think that you are not as bad as they had been told
    2) after a day, or so of that, you start ramping up the number of comments (see above for proof)
    3) then the weirdness starts creeping in (again, see above)
    4) you go nut-so

    we are currently at peej-state-3

    if it is just a matter of meds (I do not mean this unkindly), why don’t you take them? peej-state-1 doesn’t get banned, that’s my point in asking the question.

  • Someguy

    Re: 700

    Well done, Just1Z

  • szopen

    @Just1Z
    You may be interested in knowing that similar practices existed in pre-christian Europe, too. The practices of self-sacrfice of the “most-beloved” wife and willingly burning herself together with her deceased husband are well recorded for Slavic tribes and Ive read at least one description of Viking (granted, those were Rus, so may be already slavicised). However, we had those shameful traditions more than thousand years ago – it’s shocking to learn that there are countries were last such practices were just what, 25 years ago?

  • szopen

    @intj

    Hmm I need to find myself a Latvian girl.

    I’d say, we in central and eastern europe are blessed in that you can find even our feministic protest events quite enjoyable:

    Ukrainian feminists i’d love to … met

    (per analogy to MILF, this would be UFILF)

  • szopen

    Hm.. did I get into moderation or it’s fault of my IE session expiring?
    Sorry if this will be posted twice.

    @INTJ

    Hmm I need to find myself a Latvian girl.

    We, in central and eastern europe, are blessed in that even feminists protests may be enjoyable to watch:

    UFILF (per analogy to MILF):
    UkrainianFeminist I’d love toMet

  • Kathy

    @Just1Z

    “I wonder what the women here think of the Cappy Cap link?”

    I went and checked the link out because I saw your request, Jus.

    I had never thought of addressing the suicide issue in such a manner before.(But hey I ‘m a woman. ;) )

    But ya know, I think Cappy makes a lot of sense here. Smart guy..

    There IS an alternative…

    ” BUT it does make an argument for sticking around. a logical, reasonable, workable one. ”

    Yes, totally agree.

  • Just1Z

    @Kathy
    re that beer when I get in-country…cheers and likewise for you ‘n’ hubby. I’ll let you know next time we have a summer (talking actual weather not time of year). I hear nice things about Ningaloo Reef and Whale Sharks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningaloo_Reef
    I’ve dived with Whale Sharks before in the Gulf of Thailand and the Andaman Sea. The tail of one was taller than I was with fins on…vast.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6lpDsBYX6A

    So, how far is Exmouth? Same country….so, how far can it be? I mean a friend and I drove the length of the UK in a day… :) (no need to answer – privacy is cool)

    ATM I have no holidays planned, but if I were looking for a dive holiday it would be Truk, Yap, Palau, Australia

  • Just1Z

    @Susan
    I asked the question about the Cappy link…what do you reckon? Is it more male oriented, or not?

    Kathy had a look. (cheers)

    I have no axe to grind here, I’m just asking if there might be preferences between the sexes for how to get them to ‘stick around’. I’m not saying who is best.

    Personally a hug and a pat on the back wouldn’t do much…sex might (got to be honest here) with the right person (not just the physical act, but the emotionally bonded version)…but appeals to logic (me stem, me engineer) yeah.

    I’ve said before that I’m not a herd or pack person, someone showing simple sympathy isn’t going to change much. I would need a reason to change my outlook – a reason.

    J sounds like the expert, but even there there is probably a skew in which personality types go the therapy route, as opposed to sorting things out themselves (positively or negatively). I’ve never seen suicide stats by personality type, but I bet there’s a difference in attempt rates and ‘success’.

    It’s a pretty common meme that women attempt suicide as a cry for help, men commit suicide as a solution. When ‘we’ want to do it, we get it done (on the whole).

    Having said that I know of men who tried with a shotgun and…failed(!). they changed their outlook afterward, pity about the reconstructive surgery. They really did try, but didn’t use their big toe on the trigger, so they went off target (a bit) as they reached for the trigger with a finger. A failed drug overdose sounds like a better method, if you are going to fail and change your mind.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JUST1Z

      I confess I know absolutely nothing about suicide. I know that more men commit suicide than women, but I have absolutely no understanding of the particulars. I found Capt. Cap’s post both sobering but also hopeful.

  • Just1Z

    @Someguy – thanks, #700 was not meant to be mean.

    and I am somewhat curious as to why that behaviour happens. ‘we’, the casual punters, only get to see the comments that Susan lets through, so don’t know the full extent of what goes on.

    my experience with following the ‘recent comments’ links is that they stop working after a couple of pages (they go to the wrong page and stay at the top of page)…as a techy I would guess that this is a bug triggered when the number of deleted (spam corralled) comments gets too large. So my absolute guess is that there are a lot of comments never getting to see the light of day, and that peej is a major source of them.

    If Susan is going to report a bug:

    I guess that the ‘comment number to go to’ to ‘page number’ mapping is calculated on that comment’s position in the visible list, when it should be on its position in the overall list (vis + invis comments counted). Get enough invisible comments and you start going to too early a page.
    Having rendered the wrong page, it is impossible to go to the correct position on that page – so the browser sits at the top of page instead.

    Just a guess YMMV

  • Just1Z

    @szopen
    I’m a sci-fi fan and was by nature an optimist about humanity…slipping a bit nowadays. the crap people do to other people for worthless reasons defies optimism. I’m talking about wider issues than Sati, just to be clear. and cultures around the world as well.

  • INTJ

    @ PJ, Susan

    What was offensive about the “good-listener” thing? That’s pretty much what J said:

    Dealing with depression requires supportive listening as opposed to advice giving or cheering people on. No “Dude, you should just do such and such” or “Buck up, man.” It’s more like listening, asking questions, not judging, not invalidating feelings, and not advising.

    The problem is that women have a much easier time pouring their feelings out than men do.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @INTJ

      It is not true that to treat female depression “you just have to be a good listener.” While women may enjoy or benefit from talk therapy more than men, much depression will not be alleviated by listening alone.

  • INTJ

    @ szopen

    FWIW, the practice of sati has been practically non-existent in recent times. The Wikipedia article, for example, says that the total number of sati incidents has been less than 40 (in a country with a billion people).

    The real problem has been dowry killing. Sometimes, a family will get a marriage with a woman for her dowry and then kill her (thus freeing the husband to remarry and get another dowry). The Indian criminal law actually classifies this as a separate crime (and kinda throws away “innocent until proven guilty”): http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/indianpenalcode/S304B.htm

  • INTJ

    @ Susan

    It is not true that to treat female depression “you just have to be a good listener.” While women may enjoy or benefit from talk therapy more than men, much depression will not be alleviated by listening alone.

    Oh that makes sense. Damn I misspoke. I meant that as a friend I don’t know what to do to help a guy, whereas with a woman, I know what I can do: listen.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh that makes sense. Damn I misspoke. I meant that as a friend I don’t know what to do to help a guy, whereas with a woman, I know what I can do: listen.

      And that makes sense too! Glad we cleared that up. :)

  • JP

    @J:

    “The Bible also assumes that a man acquires a wife through intercourse. If he refuses to formally marry her, he still owes the bride price. There was no “free’ love.”

    Well, that explains where I got the idea that “sex equals auto-marriage” from.

  • http://www.rosehope.com Hope

    My husband is a great emotional communicator and listener, NF type, and he had a bad bout of depression in college as well. :( It’s fairly common among introverted, intuitive and intelligent types.

    I also had a high school classmate who did kill himself freshman year of college. He was tall, good looking, popular, from a well-off family and going to an Ivy League. It was really sad.

    Help is usually in the form of a combination of things. As other have mentioned, therapy, social support, diet, exercise, hobbies, and medicine. Letting the person know you care is very important. That’s what saved my husband, knowing his mother cared very much.

  • http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

    Cersei the hottest woman in GoT?

    Ha! Melisandre has her beat six ways from Sunday in the perimenopausal scorch-cake sweepstakes.

    I’m keeping my money on Sansa Stark. Sure, she’s a spoiled girly-girl, but she’s still alive, unbowed, and un-humiliated at the end of Book Five (sorry for the spoiler), whereas a lot of the more kick-ass chicks have already gotten their come-uppance. Like Dany, she’s a survivor, and in a world where people drop like flies, where she’s been a pawn and a prisoner for thousands of pages. She has even managed to do a moderate amount of good.

    GRR Martin plays his cards close to his beefy chest, but I would not rule out a Daenerys/Sansa catfight smackdown for the Iron Throne.

    It is, after all, a Song of Ice and Fire. Dragon vs Wolf.

  • INTJ

    @ J

    “The Bible also assumes that a man acquires a wife through intercourse. If he refuses to formally marry her, he still owes the bride price. There was no “free’ love.”

    In India, having sex with a woman by falsely saying you will marry her is considered rape. Like this guy who “repeatedly raped” his GF: http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/DU-girl-raped-on-marriage-promise/Article1-782501.aspx

  • INTJ

    I’d choose the Lady of Winterfell (what’s her name again?) over Cersei any day. Haven’t seen Melisandre yet though.

  • INTJ

    Oh and all the manosphere activists advocating a marriage strike should remember that in India even cohabitation won’t protect you: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-05-25/india/31850613_1_live-in-partner-live-in-relationship-complaint

  • Just1Z

    The American Association of Suicidology makes available a summary of national suicide statistics as soon as they become available from the National Center for Health Statistics. The most current statistics are from the year 2010.
    http://www.suicidology.org/stats-and-tools/suicide-statistics

    by eye it looks like 3-4 men commit suicide for every woman.

    the by nation stats look similar (by eye), so that isn’t a US phenomenum, it looks to be generally true.

    aha wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide

    The relationship between gender and suicide has been extensively researched by Western sociologists, given that males die much more often by means of suicide than do females, although reported suicide attempts are 3 times more common among females than males.[3]

    Some medical professionals[who?] believe this stems from the fact that males are more likely to end their lives through effective violent means (guns, knives, hanging, etc.), while females primarily use less violent methods such as overdosing on medications.[4][5]

    The incidence of completed suicide is vastly higher among males than females among all age groups in most of the world. In the United States, the ratio varies between 3:1 to 10:1.[6]

    Some[who?] ascribe the disparity to inherent differences in male/female psychology. Greater social stigma against male depression and a lack of social networks of support and help with depression are often identified as key reasons for men’s disproportionately higher level of suicides, since suicide as a “cry for help” is not seen by men as an equally viable option.[citation needed]

    Typically males die from suicide three to four times more often as females, and not unusually five or more times as often. Campaign Against Living Miserably is a charity in the UK that attempts to highlight this issue for public discussion.

    so, female:male attempts 3:1 success 1:4 (by eye / anecdote / whatever)

    so that means men are 12 times ‘better’ at suicide than women(?) not that that is something to wish for, but there is clearly a sex difference there.

  • Lokland

    @Mule

    I just wanted to tell you to go die in a hole. I’m only on book three…

  • Ted D

    Susan – “The claims about women wanting hypermasculine men during ovulation are bogus.”

    But my “facial hair” experiment has so far shown that despite my wife’s general protests at facial hair exceeding the mustache and chin shrub I normally wear, she does seem to enjoy a bit of scruff when she is ovulating. This month I’m going to shave it all clean, and see if any comments are made, or if I see any indication at all that she misses it. I’m not sure if she’s figured out what I’m up to, but she has made a comment or two about “being too lazy to shave”, at which point I usually say something like “I just felt like looking a bit like a lumberjack…” she chuckles and off we go.

    I don’t expect any major changes here, but I’m curious if she will notice.

    I can say that being aware of the “ovulation effect” for awhile now, I can see some subtle changes in her behavior though. Yes, she does “dress up” just a little more. Yes, she does tend to up the kino on me (not that we aren’t rather physical anyway. We tend to hold hands while driving long distances, touch each other on the arm, back, shoulder, etc in normal social settings often, and I make it a point to whack her ass on my way past from time to time at home) She definately likes the sex to be more aggressive, in some cases very much so. So I save the “love me tender” stuff (which to be honest is something *I* want more than her…) for the week prior to shark week, and ramp things up right after by starting up the more aggressive stuff.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      I’m not denying that women seek more sex and like more dominance during ovulation. However, studies have shown that they seek this in their partner, provided there is sexual attraction there to begin with. (If there isn’t, well then, she’s probably fantasizing about sex with other men all month long.) IOW, partnered women are not at risk for adultery during ovulation. That’s the manosphere myth – the notion that a woman is likely to cuckold or cheat with some more alpha male during ovulation.

      Also, while women do appreciate increased masculinity during ovulation, most reject hypermasculine males at all times, including ovulation. To a woman, “macho” characteristics signal “cad,” so we tend to steer clear.

      I don’t know if you saw it, but SayWhaat linked to this study yesterday:

      Ladies Prefer Thin Over Macho

      Macho features such as a strong jaw and squinty eyes advertise that a guy possesses high testosterone, according to the immunocompetence handicap hypothesis. Since high levels of this masculinizing hormone interfere with the immune system, the theory goes, macho men must be extra-fit to withstand the handicap their extra testosterone confers.

      However, a new study finds that while women do respond more favorably to the faces and bodies of men with strong immune responses, they seem to cue into fatness and thinness, not macho features, when making their judgments.

  • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

    @Just1Z

    I deleted your comment on child support – I have no interest in a highjack that will bring Hollenhund et al over here. This is not an MRA blog.

  • Charlotte

    Hi Susan,
    Very interesting post. I’m 21, but I graduated from school early and work in a field that I love and I am able to live a lifestyle very different than that of most people my age. I live in one of NYC’s most fun areas in an adorable apartment that I pay for myself (I fully support myself) and most of my friends are a few years older from work, etc. since my college pals are still in that “senior yeaaaaar man” stage. I have always been career-minded and together, I’m not a huge drinker, and while I still like to go out, I keep myself pretty composed. I am in the fashion/beauty industry so I work really hard to stay in shape and look my best physically and keep well emotionally.
    I recently met a guy at a very nice and lavish birthday party of a friend of my cousin’s who was 27, and my roommate, who is 23, met his friend who was almost 30. I was instantly attracted to the guy and we hit it off talking the whole night. I could tell he was actually interested because he left several times to go waltz around the party, saying “I’ll be right back” (every girl has heard that a thousand times before), and came and found me and struck up more flirtacious conversation each time. We had a lot in common and he was not a douchebag (I mean other than his need to play “the game”). He was very funny and humble. All of the “signs” of interest were there. Each time he would go away, his friend (30) would say to me, “so what do you think of him? He’s def interested in you. He’s going to talk to all those other girls because guys think they have to play this game to get girls like you’s interest. He’s a great guy, you should really go out with him. He’s so nice…etc.” The guy I was into ended up leaving to go to another birthday party in a rush taken by his other friend without taking my number, which I was a bit disappointed by. From the beginning of the night, the 30 year old guy was telling me that the 27 year old (let’s call him Dan) was very interested in me and that I was “totally Dan’s type”. After Dan left, the 30 year old (Chuck, let’s say) was still at the party and came to me to ask if my roommate was interested in him, and was telling me how he was going to set Dan and I up. He took my phone number. At that point, she had said he was so nice and funny (he really was a cool guy) but I had no idea if she was interested in him romantically. When he asked how old she was and I said “23” he said it wasn’t a dealbreaker, that she was a great girl and he’d love to get to know her better, but that he wanted to make sure he wasn’t in the friend zone with her. I told him I would go talk to her and figure it out. Once I found her (it took about 20 minutes), she was gushing over how great he was, etc. I went back to find him and he had left the party! His other friend (a third guy) approached me and said “aren’t Dan and Chuck great? You and your friend should hang out with them!”. I was very confused at this point.
    This was like 3 weeks ago. I have not heard from Chuck (who has my number, and easily could have asked about my roommates interest) or Dan. They both only had a few drinks so I know that it’s not like they were “blacked out” and don’t remember. Both guys have great jobs and I’m sure they are busy. But I thought it was very odd I didn’t hear from them since they both seemed so interest and did all of the pursuing. I am a little disappointed since most of the other guys I meet are pretty lame (don’t have their shit together, get wasted every weekend, you know, stereotypical young finance guys in NYC, frat boy mentality) and these guys were both very good at making conversation, mature, funny, not alcoholics…basically just much more fitting into what I’m looking for.
    So a few questions.
    1. I’m wondering if the reason I haven’t heard from them is our ages. I mean, they didn’t know I was 21 (I often am mistaken for 24-26) but I’m sure because I said my roommate was 23 that I was around that age as well. My roommate and I are both not looking for anything super serious at this point, I mean if that develops, it is great. But I worry that 30 year old guys, and even 27 year old guys, are afraid of younger women because their MO is to settle down and get married in the next few years, and a girl who is 21 or 23 wouldn’t want to do that?
    2. I’m also wondering why Dan didn’t take my number himself. I’m a very good reader of male interest, and from what Chuck was saying, I mean I really assumed he was interested. Again, I only actually am caring about this because he was a higher caliber than the majority of guys I meet.

    Any light you can shed on this situation would be tremendously helpful. I know it is impossible to really “know” what goes through mens minds, but you have so much insight.

  • Cooper

    Charlotte,

    I really dont want to be the first to chime in. Although I know what my gut says.
    I’ll let others speak first.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “That’s the manosphere myth – the notion that a woman is likely to cuckold or cheat with some more alpha male during ovulation.”

    Depends on how you define likely. I would define it as possibility and subsequently assume that the risk is too great.

  • Lokland

    @Charlotte

    OMG block of text.
    The space bar allows paragraph formation which makes it way easier to read.

    He wasn’t that into you.

  • http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

    Hope…”I also had a high school classmate who did kill himself freshman year of college. He was tall, good looking, popular, from a well-off family and going to an Ivy League. It was really sad.”

    Richard Cory:

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/richard-cory/

    ..and the Simon & Garfunkel version:

  • Ted D

    Susan – I caught the link, but didn’t get to read it. Gonna do that right now, but I wanted to comment on this:

    “However, studies have shown that they seek this in their partner, provided there is sexual attraction there to begin with. (If there isn’t, well then, she’s probably fantasizing about sex with other men all month long.) IOW, partnered women are not at risk for adultery during ovulation. That’s the manosphere myth – the notion that a woman is likely to cuckold or cheat with some more alpha male during ovulation.”

    All true. But keep in mind, the ‘sphere tends to collect the “herb” type men after they’ve been burned, so perhaps many of them have indeed been in marriages where no or little attraction WAS ever present. I’m sure they never thought that their wives were “having imaginary sex” with other men, and are also the most likely to have been cheated on by their wives when ovulation occurred, because that is when she is most likely to “step out” and take the risk. I think you underestimate that number of guys that married women who were at best marginally attracted to them, because they didn’t know any better. Hell, I couldn’t even reliably tell you what women found attractive in me based on what I know now, so how would I have EVER truly known if a woman was very attracted for sure?

    I’ll agree that the ‘sphere overinflates a lot of stuff. But I can also see that there IS some kernals of truth in the “wife cheats the most during ovulation” just based on observations of my own wife. If she wasn’t attracted to me, I can easily see how she would be easier to “lead astray”, and back in my blue pill days, I wouldn’t have had a clue, and would have been utterly devistated and confused. I know this isn’t rocket science, but even a simple concept like gravity can be difficult to understand if you’ve never been taught about it.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      But keep in mind, the ‘sphere tends to collect the “herb” type men after they’ve been burned, so perhaps many of them have indeed been in marriages where no or little attraction WAS ever present. I’m sure they never thought that their wives were “having imaginary sex” with other men, and are also the most likely to have been cheated on by their wives when ovulation occurred, because that is when she is most likely to “step out” and take the risk. I think you underestimate that number of guys that married women who were at best marginally attracted to them, because they didn’t know any better.

      I do understand that – the problem occurs when we extrapolate those “herb” experiences to be true of the general population, to the point that AWALT.

  • Cooper

    Well, since I’m no longer first to say so.

    He wasn’t into you.

    1. He would have used your number
    2. Making serveral “I’ll be right back” walks around the party, although I understand “the game” aspect, reeks of checking of what else is available. He was “scouting” aka “check out the other merch.”

    If I was interested, I would walk away. (Maybe once to gain for game sake, but not serveral)

    3. Nice guys usually don’t sell themselves as “nice guys.”
    Most real nice guys have heard it in so many of their rejections that the word becomes kyrtonyte.

    4. There are good guys and bad guys. Which means guys who get back to you will be doing it for both good and sometimes bad reasons. It is rare that a guy doesn’t ever get back to you with good reason.

  • Cooper

    *wouldn’t* walk away

    *checking

  • http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

    the only two women who ever liked playing Settlers of Catan were: 1) one woman who was more masculine than 50% of the guys in the game, and 2) a married woman who only played so she could give her husband good deals on trades.

    Solipsism alert (?): I freaking love Settlers. When I studied in Panama, one of the guys in our group went on a mission to purchase construction paper and popsicle sticks and enlisted our help to make the game. We all thought he was nuts and were very skeptical, but by the end most of us were huge fans, girls included. My BF and I own the game now, but we don’t get to play much, since you need three people and all. :-(

  • jz

    The problem with old guys is old sperm, and erections that don’t impress like they did at his age of 22.

    Google
    “paternal age intelligence”
    “paternal age autism”
    “paternal age schizophrenia”
    “paternal age effect”

    Men who want healthy children should have their children early. By age 50, sperm have gone through 800 rounds of spermatogenesis, with 800 opportunities for mutations.

  • Sassy6519

    @ Charlotte

    I would say that the guy wasn’t very interested in you. Honestly, he may have liked the flirting, but wanted nothing more.

    In my experience, any man that I’ve given my phone number to who was interested in me called me within a week of receiving my number. I’ve never experienced a man waiting more than that to call me/text me.

    At this point, you may just want to chalk this up to experience and move on.

  • Tasmin

    @Charlotte

    1. I don’t think age has much to do with it; it has more to do with how he read you and the situation, which is to say that he was probably either looking for something different, e.g. more immediate access to sex, or is already involved w/other women (even something lined up for later that night) and didn’t need to escalate with you at that point.

    As a side note, 30 y/o guys who have their shit together and who are NOT DBags and who are as charming as you claim this guy was don’t need guys to wing for each other that hard. I find that to be suspect. They breeze in, charm a couple of young pretty ones, have their buddies keep it spinning while they work the room, assess their probabilities, and then either close a deal or ripcord. Thats how I read it. Not all Dbags and players are so obvious, many are quite charming and can have grown up conversations without groping your ass, so to say.

    Further, Chuck defending the actions of Dan, re: working the room, running game, means that Chuck is a solid wingman but it is not the same as Dan expressing interest himself nor does it not nullify Dan’s actual behavior.

    2. Lokland is right, he’s probably not that into you. I wouldn’t be surprised if contact was made in the future, but be prepared for more of the same game and then decide if you are comfortable being part of a harem.

    OR maybe he is super-busy. NYC is full of super-busy people, especially businessy-businessmen doing lots of business. He just might come around and apologize for bailing due to his big power-point presentation to even busier businesspeople.

    But for how “high caliber” he was, the whole scene seems pretty juvenile and a bit shady. But then whatever game they were running (assuming as much) it has piqued your interest and has you on your heels a bit which is kind of the point of it I guess.

    As for the age thing, you said yourself he probably thought you were older and in your conversations, whether you did it with intent or not, you probably communicated certain things that may indicate restricted, LTR-orientation, etc. That’s a good thing. There are plenty of 30+ men who would have no problem taking the LTR dating path with a young women with her shit squared away.

    And don’t worry, not all finance guys are DBag frat boys just like not all fashion women are ditzy elitist materialistic hyper-consuming solipsistic entitled trust fund princesses with art history degrees from expensive NE private colleges with 60% acceptance rates. But yeah, NYC is full of rats so watch your step :-)

  • J

    @PJ

    Puh-leeze lady, purdah is a Muslim thing (your sister-religion) and Sati is the name of a goddess….You were saying?

    I was saying that you have a pretty big battle to fight if you want to correct these misapprehensions. You could start with Google, Wikipedia and the news media. They all say you’re incorrect.

    PJ, dial it back. You were doing so well here for a while.

  • Zach

    @Charlotte

    Two possibilities:

    1. He wasn’t that into you (as others have said). Believe me, it’s very, very easy to take 5 second to take a girl’s number. I’ve never had a situation where a friend said “no” when I said I had to grab a girl’s number quickly as we were leaving. No guy would do that to his friend. I’d say this is the most likely. I don’t actually believe his walking around the room was checking out other women. If I walk away from a girl, it means I have her number and I’m THEN going to look for other women. If I don’t have her number, it’s a big risk that she’ll be gone when I get back (especially if I meet another girl and there’s a big time gap).

    2. The only other possibility is that he’s a total chump. The only reason I would give this any weight is his friend Chuck sounds like a total loser. Constantly asking you if your roommate liked him? Anxiety over the friend zone after just meeting a girl? It’s possible Chuck’s awful with women and Dan isn’t, but given the two of them are close friends not sure how likely that is.

    3. NEVER, ever trust what a guy’s friends tell you about the guy. If I was friends with Charles Manson, and a girl who he was hitting on asked me what he was like, I’d tell her he was a fantastic, balanced, sane guy.

  • Passer_By

    @tasmin
    “NYC is full of super-busy people, especially businessy-businessmen doing lots of business. He just might come around and apologize for bailing due to his big power-point presentation to even busier businesspeople.”

    LOL!

    Charlotte:

    Consider the possiblities that:
    1. He liked you, but might not be as forward as you think, and didn’t seem to get a vibe that you were really interested, so he chickened out; or
    2. He met someone later that night or the next day who gave him a better vibe and he’s been fucking her like a raging bull ever sense; or
    3. Some combo of 1 and 2; or
    4. Found out you were 21 and has been conditioned by feminism to believe he’d be creepy for going for you (or that you’d think he was creepy).

    But I agree with Tasmin that the whole wing-man thing, and the buddy asking if you are interested, seems pretty juvenile.

  • J

    @J1Z

    “I wonder what the women here think of the Cappy Cap link?”

    I took a look as well. I’m not so sure that the world is on the edge of a collapse as Cappy is, but no matter what we think of that, his advice about staqying positive and still doing for oneself were right on.

    I have a couple of female friends who never married. One is, I think, still a virgin; the other constantly picked the wrong guys. While both regret never marrying, both continue to live their lives. They have extended family, friends, church, travel and interests. I would want their lives, but I respect that both were able to “make lemonade” when life gave them lemons. Kate Bollick, IMO, was advocating the same thing.

    ALSO–good analysis of PJ’s modus operandi. I always respond positively to her new personae–and then she cranls up the bullshit.

    I have to accept the responsibility for this go ’round. When I mentioned Mother Teresa, I was looking for an example of a famous person who wrestled with faith and still completed the mission. That’s all I intended; I didn’t expect her to be such a controversial figure.

  • J

    It is not true that to treat female depression “you just have to be a good listener.” While women may enjoy or benefit from talk therapy more than men, much depression will not be alleviated by listening alone.

    Exactly.

  • J

    Well, that explains where I got the idea that “sex equals auto-marriage” from.

    Right. It’s silly to look in the Hebrew Scripture for justification if premarital sex. Their society didn’t have that issue (except in the case of prostitution) because the custom was “You break it, you buy it.” Acquiring a bride through intercourse wasn’t the most socially acceptable way to do so, but no man got away with triffling with the womenfolk.

  • Passer_By

    I like this comment from the Cappy Cap link:

    “No one seems to understand when I say that if I knew I was going to die the next day, I would amputate, cook, and eat as much of my body as I could, just to see how it tasted. I mean, hey, what would I have to lose.”

    Who says the manosphere is crazy? C’mon! That’s good stuff.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Just: “peej-state-3″

    PEEJCON3, sorta like DEFCON. Brilliant.

  • J

    In India, having sex with a woman by falsely saying you will marry her is considered rape.

    In America, prior to about 1950, it was possible to sue and/or jail a man for “breech of promise” in the circumstances described in the article you linked. Because society valued female virginity, it sought to punish those who would devalve women by taking their virginity outside of marriage and who would deprived honest men of virgin wives. The popularization of second wave feminism, with the accompanying view that a woman’s virginity was her own to dispose of, removed those laws from the books, but I would bet that someone on this thread will characterize the criminal prosecution of the man in your link as “feminist.”

  • Charlotte

    Thank you all for the honest advice! Obviously at this point I’ve realized that he just wasn’t that into me, and I am glad to have the more in-depth input – so helpful! They also made me laugh, a lot. “Powerpointy” hahaha.

    I feel like I shouldn’t even be thinking about this still, since it was 3 weeks ago, but because the rest of guys I meet are SUCH cads, these two seemed like winners. Sad, huh?

    Really though, any suggestions on where to meet guys specifically in New York? I work in a female-dominated company (cosmetics), and a lot of us girls working have the same complaints about the guys in NY. My roommate (who is one of my good friends) also works in fashion (I promise we are not idiotic ditzes) so there is no connection to straight men there. I’ve gone to several charity balls (filled with arrogant men), volunteered all over and continue to do so (met some LOVELY gay guys who have become good friends), and I haven’t joined one of those intramural sports teams, but my coworkers that have had no luck meeting anyone.

    I’m not looking to get married any time soon, but it would be nice to have someone to get butterflies in my stomach from when I talk to them. I’m super busy with work right now so I wouldn’t even have time for something serious. It is just so fun to have a crush, and I really miss that. Because I was so busy interning and getting my career together in college, the whole college scene wasn’t so much my thing and I didn’t see many of the guys I went to school in a romantic light. I have several good guy friends from school but “out of touch, out of mind” as they continue to party while I am already settled into my job. Most of them have told me that “you were way too put-together for most college guys” and that I was intimidating because of my “fashion-y clothes” and interest in getting away from the campus and into the real world.

    Basically, what I’m saying is, it has been a long time since I’ve liked someone and it would just be fun for me to have again. I love my job, as I said, but it’d be great to be excited to see someone on the weekends!

    Anyways, any advice is appreciated.

    Adding spaces from here on out!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Charlotte

      Welcome, and thanks for bringing us your question. I see that while I was away you got a lot of great feedback already from guys. I would actually prioritize their responses over anything I might say, but I can add a couple of things from my experiences of speaking with women:

      1. Chuck vouching for Dan’s character is a massive red flag. This is a go-to move for cads in college. The fratty guy hits on the freshman, and his buddy tells her he is the real deal, would love a girlfriend, asks if she is attracted, etc. Three weeks later her name is on the whiteboard in the basement and he pretends he doesn’t know her. I have heard this exact story literally dozens of times.

      2. The fact that 10 years later guys are still using this wingman setup is incredibly pathetic. I’d say Players with Arrested Development.

      3. I hate that saying HJNTIY but the only thing that matters is actions. Not the vibe, not his friend rushing him to leave, not what Chuck said about his interest in you. I think women could save themselves a lot of heartache if they cut through all the BS and went straight to the bottom line.

      4. The way they left does seem really shady. From “I’m so into you” to “Too hip, gotta go!” is dismissive and rude.

      F*ck It Drive On, just like the guys say.

      Zach is in NYC, so maybe he’ll chime in with some good suggestions about how to meet guys, although I suspect he is one of the arrogant men at the charity ball. :P

      Have you already done the OKCupid thing?

  • Just1Z

    @Susan
    come j’ai dit; comme tu veux

  • Passer_By

    Well, if you went through four years of college and pretty much no guy seemed good enough for you, and the guys you know all pretty much got the message that they were not good enough for you, I’m guessing there’s your problem right there. But I won’t use the “H” word.

  • Just1Z

    “In India, having sex with a woman by falsely saying you will marry her is considered rape. ”
    In America, prior to about 1950, it was possible to sue and/or jail a man for “breech of promise” in the circumstances described in the article you linked.

    I think that that is the point of the expensive engagement ring – she keeps it if he bails.

    compared to the cost of the divorce PLUS the cost of the ring though… lmao

    “Because society valued female virginity, it sought to punish those who would devalve women”

    what fresh hell are you informing me of now? devalving a woman
    sick, sick, sick (whatever it is)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      devalving a woman
      sick, sick, sick (whatever it is)

      Haha, sounds like something a Victorian hack would do right after treating a woman’s “hysteria” with a vibrator.

  • Emily

    szopen,

    I just did some Googling about St. Andrew’s Day. That’s some very interesting stuff! Maybe I’ll light a candle tonight. ;)

  • JP

    @J:

    “In America, prior to about 1950, it was possible to sue and/or jail a man for “breech of promise” in the circumstances described in the article you linked. Because society valued female virginity, it sought to punish those who would devalve women by taking their virginity outside of marriage and who would deprived honest men of virgin wives. The popularization of second wave feminism, with the accompanying view that a woman’s virginity was her own to dispose of, removed those laws from the books, but I would bet that someone on this thread will characterize the criminal prosecution of the man in your link as “feminist.”””

    I’m pretty sure that this is also the source of my primary philosophy, that I only got one shot at having sex, and I was basically required to follow through and get married if I did choose to engage in pre-marital sex.

    Basically, the concept that marriage was a shot in the dark. If it worked, great. If not, you only get one chance and that’s life.

    There certainly wasn’t any second wave feminism in my worldview. It wasn’t very religious, but it certainly wasn’t up to date with any kind of modern cultural values.

  • Escoffier

    Charlotte, I apologize in advance for what I fear will be interpreted as harsh but …

    My genuine advice is, stop looking for guys until you are open to finding a keeper. The way your mindset is now, I see only two possible outcomes if you do find a guy (or guys): 1) you break the heart(s) of some LTR-oriented guy(s); 2) you succumb to some players and break your own heart, reducing your MMV in the process.

    The older the guys you are looking at, the more the chance than #1 will happen.

    Yeah, it’s nice to have fun but when other people are part of that equation you need to be careful. And the kind of guy who just wants “fun” from you is not likely to make you happy in the medium or long term. Actually, “not likely” is a vast understatement.

  • Escoffier

    J, re: breach of promise, I’ve never read of that in an American context and as late as 1950???

    It’s a staple of English lit, however, though the penalties were civil rather than criminal. Mr. Pickwick is misunderstood by his landlady when he proposes to hire a valet and is subsquently sued for breach (through sharper lawyers), she wins the suit, he refuses to pay, and is sent to debtors prison. In the last Barsetshire novel, a girl (forget her name) and her mother try to entrap Johnny Eames but just barely fail.

  • Charlotte

    It was not that “no guys were good enough”, honestly, there were none that I even rejected. They never tried to woo me or whatever. I was just not interested in a relationship at all during that time. I was there for school, not dating.

    Your advice is not harsh, it is very helpful. Of course I am open to something serious, but I guess what I meant to say is that I expect to date at least two or three guys before I get married, but who knows. I am looking for a relationship but not something where I am their absolute everything. I am just so busy with my own life right now, that I have to be a little selfish. As in, I would feel absolutely terrible if they were sure I was the person for them and I was more interested in succeeding in my career at the moment. That is not to say that if I met the right person tomorrow, I wouldn’t get into a serious relationship. I think I would. But I doubt I will find “the right person” at this point in my life…but who knows. Stranger things have happened.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I was just not interested in a relationship at all during that time. I was there for school, not dating.

      Charlotte is a great example of a woman who is restricted/not promiscuous, and focused on studying rather than relationships in college.

  • Escoffier

    Actually, now that I recall, Johnny almost got trapped twice, first by the barmaid in Small House and then by Madalina Demolines in Last Chronicle. Heedless youth!

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Charlotte, you seem very conflicted.

    If you want “nothing serious” (which seems to be code for monogamy), then have fun around with the players, that’s what they are there for. If you want to avoid the players, then you might have to consider something possibly “serious”.

    Choose one…

  • Escoffier

    Well, Charlotte, I will channel Bastiat Blogger for a moment.

    What we have here the economists call “information asymmetry”. You know your own intentions well but your potential “suitors” do not. Many of them, especially the LTR-oriented, are likely to interpret your initial interest as a positve sign for their own suit only to find you pull back later when you perceive them as getting “too serious.”

    So, ask yourself this: what do you think would happen if every guy who might approach you could read your post at #758? I will tell you: the LTR-oriented guys would move on and the players would say “Ooh, perfect! Not gonna be clingy!”

    The latter can take care of themselves but I think you owe it to the former either to make your intentions clear or else to just avoid them.

  • Charlotte

    I have not tried OKCupid. Forgive me, but I think that any guy that is 25 and under that is using that website is probably a little creepy. It’s pretty easy for men to meet girls in NYC.
    I can see why girls under 25 use it, totally. Most girls are sick of the bar scene, have not met any actual nice guys, and think, “I’ll try online dating”. To me, if you use online dating as a guy under 25, I feel like you are just cruising for a banging and not looking for anything real.
    I could be totally off base, but IDK. Any free dating site makes me weary anyway. And I know from my friends experiences (most are 24 – 26) who have been on paid subscription sites, most of the men in their age bracket are just looking for instant access to more women. I’m sure there are diamonds in the rough, especially if you are not in a place like NYC where it is harder to meet new people. In a smaller city or town, online dating makes so much sense, even at a younger age. I feel like online dating is AMAZING for 30+, since at that point people are a little less (at least try to be) focused on sex, sex, sex. They actually go into it with intentions of a relationship.

  • Cooper

    Wait, hold the phone.

    Charlotte, did you mention: “I’m super busy with work right now so I wouldn’t even have time for something serious.”

    Even remotely?

    Cause even at 23, I’m already done with putting forth effort to pursue an girl that isn’t ready to, *or “have the time for,” “something serious.”

    Escoffier 756
    +1

    And regarding the high fashion clothing being intimidating, this can be the case. I’ll follow passer_by in not mention the “H.”
    I know a couple girls that have similar complaints of not meeting guy, despite very active efforts. They try very hard to dress very nice, and appear like a very great girl. It’s often done so well, that it sends the messege to most normal guys – I’m too much for you to handle. (So guys don’t even bother trying)

  • J

    I think that that is the point of the expensive engagement ring – she keeps it if he bails.

    Traditionally, the ring was considered “a gift given in consideration of marriage.” It’s supposed to go back to the man if the engagement is broken. If not, I once gave back a very nice ring for no good reason. OTOH, I’m the one who bailed.

    My father broke off an engagement after catching the girl cheating. He got the ring and a watch back (and promptly throught them off a bridge).

    what fresh hell are you informing me of now? devalving a woman
    sick, sick, sick (whatever it is)

    LMAO. I meant “devalue.” Please, please, please, all you lurkers out there, NEVER DEVALVE A WOMAN. It soooooooooo Jack the Ripper-ish.

  • Charlotte

    Escoffier, call me a crazy person, but I do think that if there was the right “vibe” with a LTR guy, I would be totally open to it and change my non-clingy ways a bit. I’ve just never met a guy (other than one who is just a TOTAL douche who has tried to get in my life for years and I know to stay very far away from) who gave me that cozy, safe feeling.

    When I think of a LTR, I think of someone who I feel safe around, comfortable showing my true self. I mean obviously there is the dating game before you get to this point, but I think I can feel out a “cozy” person right away. Warm, kind, humble, ambitious, and loyal. That is what I am looking for. A good sense of humor is important too, but they don’t need to be over-the-top hysterical. It can be stressful to be always “on”. I would also like someone pretty outgoing as I can tend to be a workaholic and need someone to push me out of my comfort zone a bit. I think that is why I am sometimes initially attracted to the players, because they know how to make girls feel at-ease pretty quick, but I just don’t deal with their bullshit and harems of women (or “binders of women”) so it ends fast. I am a very sarcastic person so someone that wants to be with me needs to take a little bit of an edge and not feel personally hurt by it. I am also a very loving person, but I don’t show it in the typical “OMG you are the most amazing boyfriend in the world” facebook status kind of way. I’d say my “love type” is giving gifts (not necessarily material, but a sweet card or gesture, cooking, etc.) to show I really listen and care about them. I love talking to people who I click with and being a great friend to your significant other is one of the most important things I think. That is why I think I would do well with someone who is a bit more “cuddly” than me to balance it out.

    Jeez, I feel like I’m pouring it all out on the table here. But talking to you all about this is extraordinarily helpful!

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I”m going to go out on a limb and say that Charlotte is merely reflecting the conditioning of young people to deny interest in or investment in relationships. She’s practicing the Principle of Least Interest by hedging her bets, and so that she doesn’t seem like (or feel like) a wallflower! Charlotte, correct me if I’m wrong, but between the lines I hear you saying that you are totally open to something real with the right person, not looking to ensure that no guy falls for you. And there is NO reason why at 21 you should feel pressure to identify a future husband. You’re just starting to date, you have every right to check out the merchandise and shop around.

  • J

    Basically, the concept that marriage was a shot in the dark. If it worked, great. If not, you only get one chance and that’s life.

    I’m not sure if you are speaking of your own background or of religion in general. The ancient Hebrews did allow a man to divorce his wife provided he gave her a “bill of divorcement,” returned her dowry, etc.

  • Escoffier

    Well, Charlotte, to that I would say this.

    The number of young women who feel as you do about not being ready for or desiring anything serious, but who can’t articulate it–even to themselves–vastly outnumber the young women who feel as you do and can state it with perfect clarity. What that tells me is that you are dead serious–more serious than most–about not wanting anything serious right now> Which further tells me that I don’t think you should be on the market.

    You want fun and that butterfly feeling, and you can get it, but to do so you are either going to break some poor guy’s heart or else fall for a player or players. All of these are bad outcomes.

    To plunge in anyway on the small chance that you might find the one seems like it’s not worth the risk to you or the collateral damage to others. Take the plunge when you are ready to be serious.

    And, I mean this in the nicest way, racking up your N in search of butterflies and maybe “the one” would be a serious mistake for all kinds of reasons.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      You want fun and that butterfly feeling, and you can get it, but to do so you are either going to break some poor guy’s heart or else fall for a player or players. All of these are bad outcomes.

      Why can’t Charlotte meet people and go on dates for crying out loud? Take herself off the market? She just got on the market! I really, really, really don’t think that NYC is full of men halfway to the breaking point when they have coffee with a girl. Can we not give men some credit for being able to date casually without becoming unstrung?

  • LJ

    “It’s pretty easy for men to meet girls in NYC.”

    It’s pretty easy for SOME guys to meet girls in NYC — the ones who are good-looking, outgoing, and charming.

    Online dating is really good for introverted guys who don’t feel comfortable as comfortable “picking up” a girl at a bar or even a party.

  • Escoffier

    Also, as a guy, I find the words “I am a very sarcastic person so someone that wants to be with me needs to take a little bit of an edge and not feel personally hurt by it” a big red flag.

  • Emily

    Maybe somebody Charlotte would be best off with a guy who’s restricted, but also in her age range. Most of the older guys are either players or looking for a wife, whereas a younger guy is probably more likely to share her timeline. (ie. looking for a LTR, but not really thinking about marriage)

    Despite what the men were saying in the other thread, most early-20s guys are NOT in a rush to get married.

    Conversely, girls who want to get married off in the near future should probably focus on older guys (late 20s-early 30s). …although unicorns like Cooper and INTJ are also worth snapping up. ;)

  • Feelist

    ”Lots of young guys don’t step up to the plate until they have a reason to do so. My husband was a dad’s basement dwelling video gamer who had a low paying job and still going to school when we met. In the 3 years we’ve been together, he got an apartment, graduated, got a good job, signed for the mortgage on the house, and became a father. Men don’t usually do things unless they see a compelling reason.

    In (video) game terms, “incentives matter.””

    Glad it worked out for you. But I don’t see that happen often. I know one woman in her mid 20’s who shackled up with her first serious boyfriend, first guy she had sex with, and she made it clear she’d only sleep with the guy if he moved in with her and played his role as a co-habitation couple.

    So my mother was telling me how a relationship is not as bad as many older men make it look, like because average guys(like the woman’s boyfriend was) can get sex from women, even hot women.

    The funny thing was that I went to the bathroom while I was in the young woman’s bathroom and she was telling her mother how she had kicked the guy out because he had never payed for anything, lol. That was funny as hell.

    Guy had his own job, made his own money, had sex anytime he wanted with a kinky and very good-looking woman – for free.

    She payed his part of the rent, bought him his clothes, food etc. She even payed his part when she wanted to go out.

    Plenty of college guys are aware of this happening. They’re also becoming increasingly immune to the sexual power of women due to women making it a habit of showing almost every part of their body, and with the widespread use of porn guys are going to look at women who had to go through the Alpha/bad boy phase in order to grow up, and are going to look at the Church women and they’re going to think that dating and sex and relationships aren’t worth it.

    Disclaimer: Just stating what I observe around me, and what I gather from the conversations I have with men who are average.

  • J

    J, re: breach of promise, I’ve never read of that in an American context and as late as 1950???

    I think so, perhaps even a bit later. I recall overhearing conversations among my mom’s friends regarding the concept when I was a child in the 60s. And beleive me, none of these women were Jane Austin fans.

    This link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_promise references a famous case defended by Clarence Darrow in 1915, so yes we did have it here is America. I couldn’t say when the last case went to court, but I think the laws were still on the books, though not enforced, into the 1970s. I recall compliants that the ERA would take those laws off the books.

  • Charlotte

    Yes Susan, that is what I am trying to say! I know that this principle of least interest thing is not the best strategy, but it is sort of in my nature to do that. I just cannot be the one to make the moves.

    Emily, thank you for your input. A guy around my age (I’d say up to 24-25) would probably be best as he would understand where I’m coming from and why I work so much, etc. And who knows, they could end up being the right person.

    And it’s not to say that I won’t end up married at 25 if I met the right guy tomorrow. Now the question is, where to meet these good guys?

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Esc, who cares if she breaks some poor schmoe’s heart? We are advising HER here, don’t fall into the trap of giving her advice that benefits men. All we have to do is give her strategy. (See how fair I am?)

    She wants a Susan-style LTR (“at-will” monogamy until further notice, easy unilateral exit, no required consideration of the other person’s feelings). I guess that’s the norm these days, as dysfunctional as it sounds to us.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She wants a Susan-style LTR (“at-will” monogamy until further notice, easy unilateral exit, no required consideration of the other person’s feelings).

      I’m honored to have the prevailing mating strategy of a generation named after me. :)

  • Escoffier

    Susan, it’s one thing to employ the principle of least interest as a strategy in interpersonal contact, but to state what Charlotte stated here seems to be something wholly different. She is declaring where her mind is as a general matter, not making a tactical move in a dating game with a specific man.

    And by all means she should shop around but she should be careful to let go, gently, the merchandise she knows she doens’t want as soon as she knows and before extracting from him/them any resources under dubious pretenses.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      She is declaring where her mind is as a general matter,

      Yes she is, and that is exactly where most 21 year old women’s minds are. The notion that women this age will hang out a shingle “Husband Hunting Season is Open” is preposterous. She’d scare the living daylights out of any guy in her own generation.

      And by all means she should shop around but she should be careful to let go, gently, the merchandise she knows she doens’t want as soon as she knows and before extracting from him/them any resources under dubious pretenses.

      Way to assassinate the character of someone you don’t even know!

      Charlotte has said absolutely nothing about extracting resources. If anything, she’s made it clear that she is doing well financially herself.

      I’ll say it again: I have never met a young woman who was interested in going on dates, being in a relationship, or marrying for the purpose of “extracting resources.” Not one. That’s another manosphere myth.

      Escoffier, WADR, I do not think you have a good sense of SMP dynamics for young women. It’s not surprising as you are twice her age. I wouldn’t either if I didn’t talk to young women as much as I do.

  • Cooper

    “Choose one…”

    Mmhmm.

    “Your advice is not harsh, it is very helpful. Of course I am open to something serious, but I guess what I meant to say is that I expect to date at least two or three guys before I get married, but who knows.”

    *reads: I’m not open to something serious*

    Like, isn’t “I expect to date at least two or three… before I get married” and ” I am just so busy with my own life right now, that I have to be a little selfish” things a cad would say after a P&D?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      isn’t “I expect to date at least two or three… before I get married…things a cad would say after a P&D”

      Cooper, that’s nuts. I cannot believe you would even equate the two. Charlotte is not intending to deceive anyone!

      I think any woman who gets married to the first man she dates runs a very strong risk of a poor marriage. She doesn’t know her own SMV until she sees who is willing to commit to her, and she should not commit for life without a very good sense of her own SMV. She also doesn’t know what is vitally important to her in a relationship until she has one (or more).

      Asking a woman to commit at 21 for life is asking for divorce. I don’t know about the hinterland and how life works in religious sects, but Charlotte is in NYC.

      I need to go fetch that Tempurpedic pillow for my desk again, as I have already started banging my head against it. Maybe Mr. HUS will let me convert a closet to a small rubber room.

  • Ramble

    Really though, any suggestions on where to meet guys specifically in New York?

    Charlotte, I am curious, if you DID find out that the best place to meet men were places like:
    – Long Island
    – Jersey Burbs
    – White Plains and other NY burbs

    Would you start making an effort to have more of your life exist in these places (i.e. Lots of good paying jobs with cheaper rents in nice, safe towns), or would you continue to try to make it happen in Manhattan?

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ramble

      Charlotte works in fashion. Her career is in NYC. She is not going to go date The Situation.

  • Ted D

    OTC – “(“at-will” monogamy until further notice, easy unilateral exit, no required consideration of the other person’s feelings). I guess that’s the norm these days, as dysfunctional as it sounds to us.”

    Is that really the norm? Is this the kind of LTRs I can expect my children to be stuck with until they reach 30?!

    Some days I just don’t want to live on this planet anymore…

  • Ted D

    Cooper – “Like, isn’t “I expect to date at least two or three… before I get married” and ” I am just so busy with my own life right now, that I have to be a little selfish” things a cad would say after a P&D?”

    Ouch man! that probably stings a little.

    But the truth often does. ;-)

  • J

    Haha, sounds like something a Victorian hack would do right after treating a woman’s “hysteria” with a vibrator.

    LOL. I saw The Road to Wellville over the weekend and was feeling a nostaglia for Die Handhabung Therapeutik. Right now, not so much.

  • J

    @Esco

    Just reread your comment. These women’s familiarity with Dickens didn’t extend much past the film version of A Christmas Carol either. These were working class women who would all be crowding 90 if they were still around, and they knew of breech of promise as a legal option, not a literary trope. Now, they may have been misinformed, but it wasn’t a result of their wide breath of reading.

  • Cooper

    “Can we not give men some credit for being able to date casually without becoming unstrung?”

    I’d argue not.

    Men date for one of two reasons: to get sex, or to get serious.
    There’s no ‘for fun’ in between. And if your doing it for “fun”, your much more likely to feel more comfortable with the guy doing it for the former reason.

  • Charlotte

    I grew up in the suburbs of New Jersey. Most people I know plan on living in a city (not necessarily NYC) for work for at least a few years after college, and then moving back out there when they settle down a bit more. I don’t think there is much of a nightlife scene for young people where I grew up.

    Thank you OffTheCuff! I mean obviously I would NEVER string some guy along until he is head-over-heels in love and I cackle when I tell him I’m really busy and selfish. If it ended up being the right guy, I’d STOP being so selfish because I see him becoming a major portion of my life. Right now I’m selfish because I have no one to NOT be selfish for, if that makes sense. To Susan’s point, I should be able to have coffee or even a dinner with a guy a couple times before he is planning our future. If I am not as interested as I feel they are, I would make it known far before it got even slightly escalated beyond that. I mean just because a man courts you several times doesn’t mean you “owe” him anything. Heck, they will probably ditch me first anyways if they feel I’m not all that into it.

    I thought that was how most men (and women) dated these days. I don’t really know anyone that launched immediately into a LTR. You see if you like each other over a few weeks, months, whatever. It takes time to blossom, and for the people in the relationship to realize that they see this person becoming a part of their life and putting more effort into the relationship.

    So, what I’m getting is that I should just hang back until I decide “I’M HUNTING FOR A RELATIONSHIP” and practically have it tattooed across my forehead. I think many guys employ the same reasoning as I do in dating, that they will go out casually, meet new people, and at the chance they find someone whom they connect with, possibly start a relationship when they feel it is right. I actually think that could dissuade a man more than anything if the girl is like an instant cling-on, talking about their future together from the start. Clingy is so far from my nature, I couldn’t be that way if I tried.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I thought that was how most men (and women) dated these days. I don’t really know anyone that launched immediately into a LTR. You see if you like each other over a few weeks, months, whatever. It takes time to blossom, and for the people in the relationship to realize that they see this person becoming a part of their life and putting more effort into the relationship.

      You are correct, that’s how it works for most young people. I have heard that the most common times to discuss the relationship are at the 4 and 6 month marks.

      Oof, we need SayWhaat and Sassy here, also Zach. You’re getting a lot of input from men in their 40s here. I don’t know what’s wrong with Cooper, as he is 23.

      So, what I’m getting is that I should just hang back until I decide “I’M HUNTING FOR A RELATIONSHIP” and practically have it tattooed across my forehead.

      Susan says no. Take it for what it is worth. Dating is good, dating is healthy, and dating is no strings. It’s an opportunity to explore how compatible you are with another person. Run, don’t walk, away from any man who wants to lock it down right away. I doubt I need to tell you that, as most women are repelled by that kind of eagerness.

  • Cooper

    “Ouch man! that probably stings a little.”

    Well…. I only do unto others, as I’d have them unto me.

  • J

    So, what I’m getting is that I should just hang back until I decide “I’M HUNTING FOR A RELATIONSHIP” and practically have it tattooed across my forehead.

    No, but if you seriously want to be married at 25, that means you expect to meet that guy when you are 23. However, he will not magically appear on your 23rd b’day. You’ll more than likely met him through a social circle that you are establishing now.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @J

      No, but if you seriously want to be married at 25, that means you expect to meet that guy when you are 23.

      She didn’t say it was a goal, she said it under the heading of “you never know.” IOW, she’s open to all possibilities. Which is precisely what she should be feeling at 21.

      @ Guys

      There is nothing wrong with looking for a life partner at 21. There is also nothing wrong with dating around first. The median age at marriage for a college educated woman is 30. 30! Charlotte may have lived just 2/3 of her unmarried life so far. You guys are acting like she’s channeling Carrie Bradshaw. She’s barely out of college, and she graduated early!

  • JP

    This is a funny exchange.

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    The problem is what I perceive to be a cake and eat too approach. She doesn’t want to feel committed or tied down – no pressure on her. But woe be to the guy who took her at word that she wasn’t looking for something too serious and just wants to date and have some fun and butterflies, if she decides she caught feelings (while, at the same time, sarcastically putting him down on a regular basis). What a player, cad and user he would be, having wasted her time like that.

    In other words, she seems disappointed that the highest value men aren’t molding themselves to serve her needs just as she wants it when she wants it. I’m having a hard time seeing what’s in it for him, so she might try to figure that one out.

    Of course, this is all just based on a few long comments by her (and sometimes reading between the lines), so maybe she’s totally different than how she strikes the guys here.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But woe be to the guy who took her at word that she wasn’t looking for something too serious and just wants to date and have some fun and butterflies, if she decides she caught feelings

      Yeah, I think you’re reading between the lines. I got zero sense of this. I think Charlotte knows very well how often things don’t work out.

  • JP

    “Susan says no. Take it for what it is worth. Dating is good, dating is healthy, and dating is no strings. It’s an opportunity to explore how compatible you are with another person.”

    It’s kind of hard to know this until you really are married to somebody.

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Yes, Ted. apparently what we think of an LTR is a “mini-marriage” where you pledge fidelity indefinitely, and perhaps have some major deal-breakers like “cheating”, where you break up. This is what I call “being in love”.

    A modern LTR, those dealbreakers can be *anything* (including the best one – “I found someone better”), heck, they can change from moment to moment. Get used to it.

    You should think of Susan herself being ahead of her time, and us being far behind ours. That’s why she’s pretty good at advising younger women, she’s been there with the concomitant quasi-transactional attitude. Despite not being religious anymore, you and I have far more in common with folks like Jackie, than Susan or Sassy.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Yes, Ted. apparently what we think of an LTR is a “mini-marriage” where you pledge fidelity indefinitely, and perhaps have some major deal-breakers like “cheating”, where you break up. This is what I call “being in love”.

      A modern LTR, those dealbreakers can be *anything* (including the best one – “I found someone better”), heck, they can change from moment to moment. Get used to it.

      This is skewed cynical. First of all, an LTR is not a “mini-marriage.” A better term might be “going steady,” something that young people have been doing since the 1950s without thought of marriage. There are students who are referred to as “college marrieds,” and they share all meals, sleep together in the same bed every night, study together, etc. That is very definitely not what an LTR is.

      An LTR is simply an agreement between two people that they are enjoying each other’s company so much that they want to take the relationship to the next level and see how things go when they’re more serious. They would probably introduce one another to family at this point, perhaps visit one another’s hometowns, etc. A couple in an LTR might visit the other during a semester abroad. IOW, they are boyfriend and girlfriend, for all the world to see.

      Every college couple in a relationship knows that there are mighty obstacles to their remaining together forever. They do fall in love, but the pall of impending separation looms. It’s very difficult for kids – many try to have a LDR, but that’s very stressful and guys tend to balk because then it’s the commitment with hardly any sex. Some try to relocate to the location of the other, but it can be difficult to find jobs in the same location, especially knowing that further moves are likely just a couple of years away.

      In any relationship that is not a legal contract, a dealbreaker can be anything. Even marriage does not prevent some people from leaving when they meet someone they like better. This is not a modern notion – it has been true ever since people began marrying for love.

      You can’t force someone to love you, and you can’t force someone to stay with you. If you want your relationship to last, the best thing you can do is give it everything you’ve got. That’s just as true of marriage as it is of dating.

  • Passer_By

    Charlotte, I think you should go to a speed dating event and tell every guy that you want to married within the next year and don’t want to waste time if that’s not going to happen, so that’s why you are interviewing a lot of guys. ;)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Charlotte, I think you should go to a speed dating event and tell every guy that you want to married within the next year and don’t want to waste time if that’s not going to happen, so that’s why you are interviewing a lot of guys.

      Yeah, and at the end of the event the guys would say, “That chick was psycho!”

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “She didn’t say it was a goal, she said it under the heading of “you never know.” IOW, she’s open to all possibilities. Which is precisely what she should be feeling at 21.”

    I think that the point is that she’s entering into potential relationships without an end goal in mind.

    This generally results in someone getting torn to shreds, emotionally speaking. I’ve done this, with me being the one holding the chainsaw.

  • Ted D

    “I thought that was how most men (and women) dated these days. I don’t really know anyone that launched immediately into a LTR. You see if you like each other over a few weeks, months, whatever. It takes time to blossom, and for the people in the relationship to realize that they see this person becoming a part of their life and putting more effort into the relationship.”

    This right here is my issue. At 15 years old and after two dates, I made my first LTR “official” and stuck with her for four years. NO cheating, NO wandering eye. From there a few months single, a few 1st dates that didn’t work out, and then three dates and 2 weeks in? LTR two made “official” and it lasted 4.5 years. about 9 months single, exactly two 1st dates, two three weeks in to the second girl and… You guessed it: LTR that then became a 12 year marriage. I have never, NEVER “dated for fun” in my entire life. I “date” to find a mate. Full stop.

    Dating for fun sounds very much like using other people for your entertainment. I’m with Cooper: there are two reasons to date:
    1. looking for sex
    2. looking for a mate

    I skipped 1 entirely of course.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Dating for fun sounds very much like using other people for your entertainment.

      How about enjoying one another’s company? As in, a mutually beneficial exchange of conversation, good humor and an interesting experience?

      Have I entered a parallel universe where people don’t know what dating is?

      Dating is shopping for a mate. You have to try different people on until you find one that is a great match. There is no way you can discern that without dating them first. Committing before a trial period, aka dating, is likely to lead to divorce.

  • JP

    “Dating is shopping for a mate. You have to try different people on until you find one that is a great match. There is no way you can discern that without dating them first.”

    My point is that you can’t know really this until the fun and exciting part of the relationship ends, which normally happens once you are actually married.

  • http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

    I’m going to go against the grain here and recommend the carousel (moderate, carousel-lite version: N<3 rides per year/heavy emphasis on high-SMV men/no more than 4 years of active operations) for Charlotte. This is to some extent reflecting my own experience and prejudices regarding the reality of NYC, perhaps the world capital of attention-deficit combat dating.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Bastiat Blogger

      I’m going to go against the grain here and recommend the carousel (moderate, carousel-lite version: N<3 rides per year/heavy emphasis on high-SMV men/no more than 4 years of active operations) for Charlotte.

      Ohhh, interesting! Can you say more?

  • Ted D

    Susan – “An LTR is simply an agreement between two people that they are enjoying each other’s company so much that they want to take the relationship to the next level and see how things go when they’re more serious. They would probably introduce one another to family at this point, perhaps visit one another’s hometowns, etc. A couple in an LTR might visit the other during a semester abroad. IOW, they are boyfriend and girlfriend, for all the world to see.”

    OK now we are getting to where we veer off the tracks. To me “dating” is just hanging out to see how it goes. IF dating goes well, the next step is LTR (so far we are on track). But, if I’m introducing someone to my family, I’m past the “lets see how this works” stage and already on the “I think we should be thinking longer term here” phase. If I’m in a “boyfriend/girlfriend for all the world to see” relationship, I’ve already decided marriage is a distinct possibility, and to be frank if I’ve had the exclusivity discussion, the only thing left to make it the real deal is a ring and a certificate.

    I can’t figure out why anyone would LTR up if they are still “test driving” the car. That is what dating is for IMO. And, to be clear, “dating” doesn’t necessarily mean sex. In fact, I’d say sex should come AFTER the LTR decision is made, and based on the “mini-marriage” description, I can see that as a happy medium to no sex before marriage. Yes, to me a LTR is essentially a work-around for that rule. So, yes, I do see LTRs as mini-marriages. Anything less than that is just dating under another label.

    Of course, remember I don’t believe in spinning plates either. I have never dated more than 1 girl at a time. If things didn’t move on to LTR by around date 4, I cut her loose and looked for another girl to date.

    And there isn’t a damn thing wrong with Cooper. He doesn’t fly loose and free with his intimacy, and he takes LTR seriously, which seems to be a long dead trend.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I can’t figure out why anyone would LTR up if they are still “test driving” the car. That is what dating is for IMO.

      LTR = exclusivity = boyfriend/girlfriend. That’s it. LTR circa 2012.

      A couple can decide that the relationship is going well and progressing in a way that makes them both feel ready to stop seeing other people and give everything they’ve got to what’s blossoming between them. But there is a lot that can still go wrong! The idea of committing to an LTR being the equivalent of marriage just makes no sense to me.

      And there isn’t a damn thing wrong with Cooper. He doesn’t fly loose and free with his intimacy, and he takes LTR seriously, which seems to be a long dead trend.

      But that’s where you’re wrong! Cooper’s difficulties have been a direct result of flying loose and free with intimacy, trying to make a girl his gf after one night of hooking up. That dog does not hunt!

      @Cooper

      Your comments in this thread make me realize that you are quite rigid about what you expect and how quickly. I suspect this is at the heart of your unsatisfying results.

  • JP

    @Susan:

    “Even marriage does not prevent some people from leaving when they meet someone they like better. This is not a modern notion – it has been true ever since people began marrying for love.”

    I think this is one of the problems in life; you are generally going to find someone you like better because you are going to continue to be exposed to new people as you move forward in life.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @JP

      I think this is one of the problems in life; you are generally going to find someone you like better because you are going to continue to be exposed to new people as you move forward in life.

      No, because once you make a lifelong commitment, you exit the market and stop shopping. In the event that you stumble across someone you are extremely attracted to, you shut that down.

  • http://www.rosehope.com/ Hope

    Feelist, incentives do drive behavior. But the problem for the woman you know is that the guy wasn’t genuinely in love with her. He merely used her. Her condition shouldn’t have been making him “play the part.” It should have been making sure he had real feelings for her.

    As Susan just said, “You can’t force someone to love you, and you can’t force someone to stay with you.” The attitude I adopted was, if he doesn’t want me, then I don’t want him. Conversely, if he really wants me, then I will probably really want him. My husband and I really want each other.

  • Cooper

    “Cooper, that’s nuts. I cannot believe you would even equate the two. Charlotte is not intending to deceive anyone!”

    I’m not saying that is intending to. But she is at risk of doing so.

    “We’ll, I’m not really looking for something serious” is precisely what cads would say, AFTERWARDS, no?

    She hasn’t commites any foul, yet.
    In saying she is looking for good LTR-guys, but doesn’t want to “be their everything” or might “want to date at least two or three… before getting” serious, she is potentially setting up a really nice guy for a whole world of hurt, when he gets emotional invested.

    If a girl wants butterflies, with little seriousness, she’ll have to choose a guy who is looking for the same. And as I said just now, guys usually date for one of two reasons: for sex or for serious.

    Guys do not date for the mere excitement of butterflies – that’s preposterous.

    So, she has to choose between a guy that is doing it specifically for the butterflies, or one who’s specifically not.
    Of course, not everything, especially with young college students, is so black and white. But I do think trying to navigate the SMP hoping to turn someone that’s one type into another is a fools errand.

  • Ted D

    Susan – “How about enjoying one another’s company? As in, a mutually beneficial exchange of conversation, good humor and an interesting experience?”

    I’m not trying to be a PITA here, but I have friends for this stuff. I don’t generally rely on my “romantic” relationships for this, although I certainly enjoy my wife’s company and conversations. And I have no issue with this as far as it goes, but this is NOT an LTR of any sort. If its dating, then it better damn well be the kind of dating that leaves clothes on.

    And for the record, I don’t “enjoy other people’s company” in general. In fact, most of the time other people being around annoys me. :P The only people I can “hang around” with are the ones I have some deep connection with, be it friendship or romantic. I can’t imagine being comfortable around strangers, which is why “dating” as you describe it seems like torture to me.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Ted D

      And for the record, I don’t “enjoy other people’s company” in general. In fact, most of the time other people being around annoys me.

      Your misanthropy cracks me up every time.

  • J

    She didn’t say it was a goal, she said it under the heading of “you never know.”

    OK, I didn’t read carefully enough. I’ve just been skimming this interchange.

    Nonetheless, I won’t suggest anyone withdraw from the social scene because they aren’t ready to commit to a marriage, as some of the guys seem to be suggesting. That was my main point.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Nonetheless, I won’t suggest anyone withdraw from the social scene because they aren’t ready to commit to a marriage, as some of the guys seem to be suggesting. That was my main point.

      Cosign!

  • http://x OffTheCuff

    Sue: “First of all, an LTR is not a “mini-marriage.””

    I know. I said what Ted and I think of as an LTR, is what you have termed (I think) an “mini-marriage” (not “college married”). That’s why I explained the difference. My personal view of a LTR includes a much deeper level of personal commitment, than “until I feel like stopping for any reason”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @OTC

      My personal view of a LTR includes a much deeper level of personal commitment

      What have you promised someone in an LTR? What guarantee do they have a right to expect? Can you think of any reason you might end a LTR instead of marrying that person? IOW, what is the real nature of the commitment?

  • Ted D

    Butterflys: Good Lord I can’t believe people actually LOOK FORWARD to that. The butterfly stage is IMO the WORST part of a relationship. It is the part I can’t wait to blow through so my life can get back to normal. There is nothing more distracting than being freshly in love. Seriously, it can derail my entire routine for weeks. I hate not being able to concentrate on something important because I’m limerant.

    But I also shake my head at people who talk about skydiving…

  • Zach

    @Charlotte (also a little @Susan)

    Just finished a major project at work, and the rest of my afternoon looks pretty free, so this may turn into a bit of a Russian novel. Also, this is going to be harsh (and not in the Escoffier harsh mold).

    @Susan

    Yes, definitely I am one of the guys at those charity balls. Those balls are loaded with hot women, most of whom are well-educated. It’s like an all you can eat buffet. (My favorite is probably the Wildlife Foundation benefit at the Central Park Zoo every year).

    @Charlotte

    1. Just as an FYI, guys have pretty strong stereotypes about girls in fashion here in the city. Those run about in this order: hot, high maintenance, catty, potential gold-digger (fashion pays like shit, NYC is expensive). Now obviously those are only sometimes true, but it’s a brush many guys paint with. Also, as you may have already noticed, a lot of guys don’t really consider fashion (or PR, the other great NYC female employer) a real “career” per se. Given how heavily oriented towards women those workplaces are, it tends to reinforce the worst female behaviors (cattiness, distorted body image, etc) just as finance reinforces many of the worst male ones (douchebaggery, cockiness, etc). So out of the gate, you’re working against those stereotypes, and the only positive one (hot) all depends on how you look.

    2. Online dating: a couple of points. You say it’s fine for a lot of young girls because they’re “sick of the bar scene”, and then accuse the men on it of “not being able to meet anyone” even though it’s easy to meet new people in NYC. First of all, are men not allowed to be sick of the bar scene? I’m thoroughly sick of it (for different reasons than you, but sick nonetheless), and know plenty of other guys who are too. Second of all, it is easy to meet people in NYC, but that’s doubly true for women. As a girl, if you’re at all attractive, simply stand there and bat your eyes and you’ll meet a couple guys every night. So that’s not a reason men would be more or less likely than women to do online dating. Meeting women at bars is easy for me (although not so for a lot of men). I gave online dating a try because some of the women I was looking for (those sick of the bar scene) are there. Men go to where the women are (see the lines for any club), so if the women they want are online, they will go there. And that includes EVERY type of guy. I went there because some of the absolute hottest women I know are, as you say, sick of the bar scene and almost exclusively meet guys online. If they’re online, and not at the bar, why would I not go online?

    3. Where to meet “good” guys. Honestly there’s no easy answer. Every place you will go draws guys of every sort. Best advice is to try online, (broadens your pool beyond just who you happen to run into), avoid clubs (focus on bars and lounges) and hope for the best.

    4. Honestly, your description of your desires (want to have butterflies, guy to hang out with on the weekend, not serious) is exactly the type of girl I would highlight with a laser designator were I still looking for casual sex. “Hang out on weekends” to me reads as “straight up booty call” as does “not serious”. As someone else said, guys don’t have a medium between booty call and girlfriend. We either care about the girl we’re seeing, and she’s our gf (or we want her to be), or she’s just there for sex. There’s no real in between. So if you go after what you’ve described, you’re going to get used for sex. Which, if you’re too conservative to have soon, will drive away the players. Then in turn your unwillingness to be in a relationship will drive away the relationship-oriented guys. Pick one or the other. You’re just setting yourself up for disappointment otherwise.

  • Escoffier

    Susan, what is “dating around” going to lead to when the girl KNOWS that she doesn’t want an LTR at this stage and does not want to marry until she been through *at least* 2-3 BFs? (These are her statements.)

    Well, it does not take a master logician to figure it out: either a few flings with players, or else some incipient relationships with guys who want her for the long haul but on whom she will bail, unless she changes her mind.

    Since you skipped over this part, I will repeat it. Imagine if every possible guy who might ask her out were able to read the following first:

    “Of course I am open to something serious, but I guess what I meant to say is that I expect to date at least two or three guys before I get married, but who knows. I am looking for a relationship but not something where I am their absolute everything. I am just so busy with my own life right now, that I have to be a little selfish. As in, I would feel absolutely terrible if they were sure I was the person for them and I was more interested in succeeding in my career at the moment. That is not to say that if I met the right person tomorrow, I wouldn’t get into a serious relationship. I think I would. But I doubt I will find ‘the right person’ at this point in my life…but who knows. Stranger things have happened.”

    LTR oriented men who are not interested in taking a rather foolish risk would move on. Players would go for it.

    My comment about resources was perfectly fair. If she knows she does not want a LTR right now, then she absolutely should not be accepting lots of dinners and other nights out with men picking up the check–unless she wants to reciprocate with sex, which is sort of sleazy but fair in its way. However, she has said specifically that she does not want to do that.

    Let’s explore the “shopping around” analogy for a moment. The main difference of course is that unlike a car or even a house, you’re only supposed to get one husband. So “shopping around” in the MMP, when done properly, is better likened to window shopping than to actual consumption. Actual consumption is more like buying lots of items, wearing them when it suits you, and then returning them. That’s not exactly above board. In the mating scene, that’s the same as dating guys for longer than a few dates when you KNOW you don’t want them as a spouse or even a LTR.

    Dating as window shopping is fine. Dating as cosumption=>return is not. Unless the guy is totally down for that too, but those guys are called players.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Escoffier

      Well, it does not take a master logician to figure it out: either a few flings with players, or else some incipient relationships with guys who want her for the long haul but on whom she will bail, unless she changes her mind.

      What I think you are missing is that many guys want a few relationships before they marry as well. Zach is a perfect example. A while back he decided he wanted a gf, so he set about getting one. That lasted seven months, and he didn’t fall in love. He liked her enough that he was happy to be exclusive and give it a shot, but when his feelings didn’t grow he ended it. Then he got back out there and played the field again. Now he’s dating once more with an eye toward finding a gf.

      You’ll probably say apex fallacy but I don’t think so. I haven’t spoken to a single young man in the last four years who wants to marry before his late 20s at the earliest. Yet most of them don’t want 10 years of ONSs either, frequent or occasional. There are nice benefits to having a girlfriend. Sure, it might not last forever, by hey, let’s enjoy it while we can. A good example of this is semester abroad romances, which are very common and can be very intense. People often fall head over heels in love, knowing (and perhaps because) it’s got an expiration date.

      If she knows she does not want a LTR right now, then she absolutely should not be accepting lots of dinners and other nights out with men picking up the check–unless she wants to reciprocate with sex, which is sort of sleazy but fair in its way.

      I think we clarified that she is open to an LTR, just not prepared to get it tattooed on her forehead.

      But I take your point – in no way should she deceive a young man into thinking he’s going to get a relationship if she’s trying to keep things casual. From what Charlotte has said, I see no indication she would do so.

      So “shopping around” in the MMP, when done properly, is better likened to window shopping than to actual consumption.

      How do you define consumption? Your wife was not your first gf – did you “consume” your first gf and take advantage of her, lowering her value because you were with her during college? I don’t understand.

      To get to pure window shopping with no “sampling” you’d have to go back to the courting era, which was dead by the 1920s.

  • Cooper

    “How about enjoying one another’s company? As in, a mutually beneficial exchange of conversation, good humor and an interesting experience?”

    *giggles* U funny.

  • Jackie

    @Charlotte

    Hi Charlotte! It’s nice to meet you! You’ve definitely gotten the conversation going around here. ;)

    I am probably the most restricted person commenting here and my reply to this:

    “Dating for fun sounds very much like using other people for your entertainment. I’m with Cooper: there are two reasons to date:
    1. looking for sex
    2. looking for a mate”

    is :shock:
    ====
    What is so wrong about going out @ 21, to see what you like and having fun? It’s how you’re going to learn what you like and what you don’t like, and thereby find what IS right for you. And why are we conflating promscuity (“N”) and dating skills?

    I remember when I was a little younger than Charlotte and a guy invited me to see a concert, that was going to take a 3hr starlit drive though the desert to get there. It was just “for fun” and you know what? It was! The guy had worked at an Observatory and knew how to find all the constellations. I loved learning about a new genre of music, too.

    So it wasn’t a match. So what? Each experience can help you identify better matches and polish your own skills, without this fear of promiscuity and destroying lives by “using people for entertainment.”

    I repeat: :shock: For those yearning for a throwback to an earlier era, back then people went on dates all the time– usually with a different person each day! And it was NBD, just a chance to get to know someone and have fun.

    (Coincidentally, wouldn’t a fun date have a better chance of success than a date where you are putting the pressure on: Potential Spouse or Bust!)

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      And why are we conflating promscuity (“N”) and dating skills?

      Exactly. Dating successfully requires skills, and the only way to gain them is by dating. Relationships also require skills. One thing I’ve seen psychologists express concern about is that people don’t have a serious relationship at all until their late 20s, and then that marry that person. Despite their age, though, they have little experience communicating and negotiating relationships!

      For those yearning for a throwback to an earlier era, back then people went on dates all the time– usually with a different person each day!

      When I was in college in the 70s, here is what was perfectly normal and appropriate:

      Weekend 1:

      On Friday night I am going to the Pike luau with Mark J. We will dance and drink and party, and then we will make out in his car for an hour before I head inside.

      Saturday night, Jeff is picking me up for the Sig Pi party. This will be our third date. I am aware, though, that Jeff took Nancy to the Hayride last weekend, which is fine. Jeff and I have a great time, I like this kid. Some rather passionate making out.

      Weekend 2:

      Mark J. asks me out to dinner, but I’m not interested in him, so I thank him and decline.

      Friday night I go to a party with the girls. I dance to Free Bird and Stairway to Heaven with Tommy B., but I’m not feeling it, so cut him off after two slow dances.

      Saturday night is our Pledge Party with TKE. I notice a new guy, transfer student. Hot. I go outside to get some fresh air and new guy follows me out. Starts showing me constellations, then leans over and kisses me. I don’t even know his name. My knees go weak and I practically fall down. New Guy confesses he has girlfriend, will break up with her.

      Weekend 3:

      Say no to date with Jeff.
      Say no to date with Tommy B.
      New Guy is single, comes over. Intense hookup (no p in v).

      Two week summary:

      Two makeouts
      One aborted slow dancing session
      One intoxicating kiss
      One night of serious fooling around

      And this was not the least bit slutty. This was typical and normal!

  • Escoffier

    Oh, yeah, another big difference is that the dresses a person returns to the store after wearing don’t have feelings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Oh, yeah, another big difference is that the dresses a person returns to the store after wearing don’t have feelings.

      Feelings are risked by both parties in dating. In this post I refer to the Quality Guys who date numerous women and exit quickly when they perceive it’s not a match. Sure, the women sometimes are hurt that he never called again.

      This is dating. Why am I having to explain the basic risks and benefits of dating?

  • Lokland

    @OTC

    “She wants a Susan-style LTR (“at-will” monogamy until further notice, easy unilateral exit, no required consideration of the other person’s feelings). I guess that’s the norm these days, as dysfunctional as it sounds to us.”

    I envy your willingness to help those who would do harm.
    I do think Susan needs to realize that LTR/marriage are essentially the same. If an LTR is terminated without consideration of the other, so to is marriage.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      I do think Susan needs to realize that LTR/marriage are essentially the same. If an LTR is terminated without consideration of the other, so to is marriage.

      No they are not! Marriage is a legal contract, and you don’t enter into it until you are sure of your feelings and commitment to a person. LTRs are not legal contracts, they are trial periods which may or may not lead to marriage.

      Also, I have never recommended terminating relationships without consideration of the other. I have simply pointed out – correctly – that an LTR can be ended by either party at any time for any reason, and the other party will have no recourse if they don’t like it.

      Would you want a woman to marry you because she’d been in an LTR with you, even though her attraction for you had begun to wane in recent months, and a handsome guy at work was tempting her with regular invitations?

  • Cooper

    “LTR oriented men who are not interested in taking a rather foolish risk would move on. Players would go for it.”

    Pretty sure I +1 this the first time.

  • Zach

    @Charlotte

    You remind me a lot of a very close girl friend (platonic) of mine. She also goes for the butterflies. She’s gorgeous, and goes on maybe 4-5 dates a week, often with different guys (80% from online). Also conservative, doesn’t sleep with pretty much anyone until a couple months of dating. She’s literally addicted to the drama of dating and being in a “is he or isn’t he” scenario. She’d be bored out of her mind with a normal, placid, relationship. I would’t touch her with a 10 foot pole for a relationship (btw, these are all things I’ve told her). She’s getting to be a little old for it, but you’re still only 21. It’s common with young women (a big reason they go after so many dbags is for the “excitement”). It’ll probably change as you get older, and you can pick either casual sex or real relationships. But if you really just want butterflies and excitement, do what she does. Go on lots of dates (hey, free dinner), and you’ll find a guy here or there for short periods of time who will do that to you. Like her, they’ll eventually drop you and fade away after they’ve got what they wanted (sex), but you’ll get your butterflies.

  • Ted D

    Zach – “As someone else said, guys don’t have a medium between booty call and girlfriend. We either care about the girl we’re seeing, and she’s our gf (or we want her to be), or she’s just there for sex. There’s no real in between. ”

    +1

    And how odd is it that the Coopers, Zachs, and Ted Ds of the HUS world are pretty much in total agreement here?

  • Escoffier

    And regarding my age, sure, I don’t talk to a lot of 21 y/o chicks but so what. I can still apply logic and recognize potential injustice and heart-ache when I see it.

  • Zach

    @ the women

    I’ve also never understood the appeal of dating “for fun”. Yes, dates can be a lot of fun, but I also can have lots of fun with my friends, without spending all the mental energy of being on my game, making conversation, and spending $$. Four to five dates a week would be exhausting, especially given lack of sleep and work on top of it.

    Also never really understood the female obsession with making out. Does absolutely nothing for me. If after ten minutes or so, it hasn’t gone anywhere else, it’s just kind of a big tease. Most guys I know think that way as well, but plenty of girls I know have said they could make out for hours with nothing else.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Also never really understood the female obsession with making out. Does absolutely nothing for me. If after ten minutes or so, it hasn’t gone anywhere else, it’s just kind of a big tease. Most guys I know think that way as well, but plenty of girls I know have said they could make out for hours with nothing else.

      This has been extensively studied. Women value kissing for the activity itself, and they get a lot of chemical information from kissing, most notably from the male’s saliva. They assess DNA compatibility this way, among other things.

      Men view kissing as the means to an end. They enjoy kissing as a prelude to the next sexual step, not for itself.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “So it wasn’t a match. So what? ”

    NO harm, NO foul. But, did you continue to date him even though you knew it woudln’t work?

    And, I’d like to add, YOU may have thought is was all “just for fun”, but I’m willing to bet that for him, he was hoping for one of two things:
    1. sex
    2. relationship

    You’d be hard pressed to convince me he asked you out “for fun”.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      But, did you continue to date him even though you knew it woudln’t work?

      This is the default assumption that makes no sense. Women don’t waste their time this way. Unless a woman was desperate and knew her SMV was low, she would never take herself out of circulation for a guy she was not interested in. That’s got a very high opportunity cost.

      ’m willing to bet that for him, he was hoping for one of two things:
      1. sex
      2. relationship

      That’s male entitlement. Neither one of those things is guaranteed and we don’t always get what we want. A date is essentially an audition where both parties assess compatibility and attraction. No attraction, no second date.

  • Ted D

    “I’ve also never understood the appeal of dating “for fun”. Yes, dates can be a lot of fun, but I also can have lots of fun with my friends, without spending all the mental energy of being on my game, making conversation, and spending $$. Four to five dates a week would be exhausting, especially given lack of sleep and work on top of it.”

    This exactly. If I really want to have fun, the absolute LAST thing I’d do is ask a new girl out. There is very little “fun” in a fresh date for me. “Fun” is hanging out with my friends, kicking back a few beers, and BS’ing on all the crap we’ve been BS’ing about for a decade together.

    Trying to have a conversation with someone you dont’ know? Nothing at all fun about that.

  • JP

    “As someone else said, guys don’t have a medium between booty call and girlfriend. We either care about the girl we’re seeing, and she’s our gf (or we want her to be), or she’s just there for sex. There’s no real in between.”

    No, there is an in-between.

    Apparently, I have a “medium” setting.

    However, I suppose that could mean that I’m actually a girl.

    Maybe I’m really a transsexual lesbian.

  • INTJ

    @ Zach

    3. NEVER, ever trust what a guy’s friends tell you about the guy. If I was friends with Charles Manson, and a girl who he was hitting on asked me what he was like, I’d tell her he was a fantastic, balanced, sane guy.

    WTF dude? That’s seriously wrong.

  • Jackie

    @Ted D

    Ha ha! Of course he (like so many others!) dumped me after I didn’t put out by date 3.

    It did sting for a day or two but I bucked up and congratulated myself for dodging a bullet. I didn’t take it that personally because I know my standards are a modern day anachronism. I’m still glad I got to see the concert and can pick out Orion in a snap.

    ;)

  • J

    Charlotte, I think you should go to a speed dating event and tell every guy that you want to married within the next year and don’t want to waste time if that’s not going to happen, so that’s why you are interviewing a lot of guys

    Speed dating isn’t the venue for that sort of thing. Perhaps there’s a guy in the room who’s interested, but more likely not. You need a venue with men who’ll be receptive–a conservative church mixer, an Orthodox Jewish matchmaker, a group of Indian parents looking for a suitable woman for an available young man.

    For all the discussion that goes here about how most men are just looking for a girl to settle down with, even back in my dating years, looking overly anxious to marry scared men off. I eventually learned to answer the question “Are you looking for marriage?” with “Eventually yes, of course. But not tomorrow. And I am not necessarily willing to make that decision on the basis of one date with you.” It was an honest admission that I did eventually want to marry, but it seemed to take the pressure off the skittish while chasing off the real cads.

    I do agree though that a woman who wants to marry shouldn’t spend a lot of time with men who don’t.

  • Jackie

    @Zach

    “Also never really understood the female obsession with making out. Does absolutely nothing for me. If after ten minutes or so, it hasn’t gone anywhere else, it’s just kind of a big tease.”
    ====
    This convo is making me seriously sad! Haven’t you ever enjoyed just holding hands with a person? :(

  • LJ

    @ Charlotte, if you’re hesitant/reluctant to do online dating you can make an account and just browse profiles. If you don’t put up a picture your profile will basically be invisible and you can kind of be “incognito” and look to see if there are any guys who look like they’d be worth meeting — and if so, THEN put in the effort to put up pictures and fill out the essays.

  • JP

    “Also never really understood the female obsession with making out. Does absolutely nothing for me. If after ten minutes or so, it hasn’t gone anywhere else, it’s just kind of a big tease. Most guys I know think that way as well, but plenty of girls I know have said they could make out for hours with nothing else.”

    I’m starting to become more convinced that I am a transsexual lesbian.

  • Lokland

    @Susan

    “Dating is shopping for a mate. You have to try different people on until you find one that is a great match. There is no way you can discern that without dating them first. Committing before a trial period, aka dating, is likely to lead to divorce.”

    Ah ah ah.

    Dating =/= LTR.
    The two are very distinct.
    One is essentially casual sex without the guilt for women.

    The other gets fancy labels of gf/bf, exclusivity etc. LTR comes after dating, at which point excluding major deal breakers the end goal is marriage. Assuming no deal breakers show up and they can manage some of the more intrusive obstacles, the end goal is kids and marriage. The likelihood of this happening has little to do with the mindset. Most of my thesis students have girlfriends, correction all, none of them are imagining some impending doom that will end their relationships as Susan is suggesting.

    Your definition seems to be that at some point two people who are exclusively dating get married and suddenly the rules change and the relationship is serious. WTF you smokin? Can I have some?

    As for meeting someone better = end relationship, face palm.
    I’ll go get the divorce papers then…

    Or better,

    *Ring, ring, ring

    ‘Hey Mom. I’m getting a divorce.’
    ‘WTH, why?’
    ‘Ohh I met this girl, she’s just a touch prettier, tits are a touch larger etc.’
    ‘But you have kids and what about E’
    ‘Who cares I met someone better.’

    As someone who comes from a family with 0 divorces, I think, barring extreme abuse/paternity fraud/ infidelity etc., my family would bloody murder me for trying to get a divorce. Double the pain if its because I met someone else.

  • Charlotte

    @ Zach: awesome advice.
    I am well aware of the fashion girl stereotype. It is often, unfortunately, true. Especially the PR girls. I consider myself to be well-educated (my college degree is actually in finance), and I have many hobbies that have nothing at all to do with shopping or getting my nails done. At work, I do not sit online all day and look at the newest arrivals at Barneys. I curate digital content for a brand and I’m currently working on developing an education platform for the makeup artists of the brand in which I will write all of the content and screen directions and hire the videographers, editors, etc. to film hundreds of video clips that will be used for artistry training across the country and possibly around the world. I’m currently wrapping the print version of this educational manual. I started working as a makeup artist on fashion photo shoots when I was 15 and continue to do so in the time after work or on weekends, so I will also be the lead educator on film in the videos, which requires quite a bit of personal maintenance (hair done, in shape, nice clothes, etc.) Besides those responsibilities, I also assist with any other marketing needs, plan national meetings and conferences for artists, coordinate and do makeup for photoshoots for our editorial features, along with placing any wholesale orders our national sales team may need. All of this requires careful budgeting, planning, and research. Because I started working at a young age, this company trusts me to do this even though I’m quite young. I’m sure none of what I just said makes sense to some of the men here nor do they care, but I’m just trying to state that I’m not some fashion bimbo that wants to marry rich and classify climbing stairs at Bergdorfs as hard work.

    I do enjoy nice things, but I save for them myself. I have always pictured myself being successful based on my hard work, not my marriage. It is not quintessential athat a guy make tons of money, but he needs to be passionate about what he does (to understand my passion for work) and ambitious.

    I find it really interesting that men either think of women as sex toys or future wives. Most of my male friends have never said ANYTHING like that. If they like a girl, they will date her, see where it goes, possibly all the way to the altar, but when they decide for her to be their girlfriend they aren’t thinking WIFE WIFE WIFE.

    Again, my point is that if I met someone great, I would give up the selfishness. But I’m not meeting the guys I want to meet. Maybe now I will think about the online dating thing. It sounds so trivial, but I would be embarassed if someone I knew saw me there. Ego, I guess….like I automatically assume they’d think “of course she can’t get a date”.

    I am picky, and by having fun, I don’t mean sleeping with the guys that aren’t really committed. I had a horrible experience with sex in the past so I’m a bit conservative on that front. It’s not to say that if the timing is right, it will happen, but I’m not going to fuck the city of Manhattan and expect to be treated like a high-quality catch.

    I guess if I don’t really like them from the get go, I shouldn’t even give them a shot? Is that what you are saying? I should know they are the LTR guy for me immediately?!

  • Passer_By

    @susan

    What zach said, in its entirety (and I’m not in NY). Plus, you are changing the argument here a bit (and the other guys are falling for it). The problem was not that she wanted to date a little first to get to know him and decide if an LTR was right, the problem is that she wanted him to be up for a pseudo LTR (after the first few dates), which was sort of on her schedule and at her option as to how long it goes (she needs to be “selfish” right now). And she sort of explicitly plans to have 2 or 3 of those, but “you never know”. There are probably guys who wouldn’t mind that, but they aren’t going to get too emotionally invested (why would they?). So, it will be more like glorified friends with benefits. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but call it what it is.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      @Passer By

      I thought Zach’s feedback was reasonable and realistic.

  • JP

    @Lokland:

    “As for meeting someone better = end relationship, face palm.
    I’ll go get the divorce papers then…

    Or better,

    *Ring, ring, ring

    ‘Hey Mom. I’m getting a divorce.’
    ‘WTH, why?’
    ‘Ohh I met this girl, she’s just a touch prettier, tits are a touch larger etc.’
    ‘But you have kids and what about E’
    ‘Who cares I met someone better.’””

    This is seriously funny in a sad funny, but really really funny way.

  • Ted D

    Jackie – “This convo is making me seriously sad! Haven’t you ever enjoyed just holding hands with a person? ”

    I adore holding hands with my wife in private. But what does that have to do with making out? The point Zach was making is, most men don’t get anything but blue balls from kissing and petting for hours on end. For me, 10 to 15 minutes of that is more than enough, and then we better be taking off clothes, or I’ll need to go vent some pent up frustration soon.

    making out is truly nothing but a cock tease to most guys.

  • Escoffier

    There is nothing inherently selfish about being young, having your own income, and spending money on stuff you like. That’s all fine.

    What raises concerns is the idea that you want to date for the feeling it gives YOU without, apparently, thinking about how HE might be affected.

    The old way of dating used to be that people moved as soon as they realized he/she was not “the one.” The new rule seems to be “As long as I’m not sure he’s definitely not the one, I might as well stay with him” no matter what his thinking might be.

    Maybe I am sensetive on this point because I broke at least one heart in a similar way, even though I ended it reasonably close to the point I realized marriage was not going to happen.

    Susan’s view of LTRs seems exceptionally cut-throat and harsh to me and more suited to robots than to people with actual feelings.

    • http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

      Susan’s view of LTRs seems exceptionally cut-throat and harsh to me and more suited to robots than to people with actual feelings.

      Dude, I’m just the messenger. I’m telling you how it is.

  • Charlotte

    By butterflies, I meant, I am excited to see them and like them that much. Shouldn’t you feel that way about someone you are with? Or am I wrong and it is supposed to be like, “shit, my LTR is coming over, I’m so annoyed I have to spend time with them.”
    Isn’t the whole point of dating/LTR/marriage whatever to find some kind of joy in another and feel excited at least some of the time?!
    By butterflies, I didn’t mean the excitement of OMG they texted. I mean a general good feeling towards the person.

  • Lokland

    @Charlotte

    Echoing Zach.

    Never trust what a guys friends say to you.

    I’ve had my buddy say I’m gonna fuck her, turned around and said he was looking for a girlfriend.

    I did not feel guilty.

  • http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

    My BF and I own the game now, but we don’t get to play much, since you need three people and all.

    I haven’t bought the game for that reason I freaking love it but the baby is too young to learn and our friends always want to try new games instead of the boring Catan every single time we play, like I always want, in that vein my husband’s best friend wife tries to go for the “longest road” I’m more development cards/bigger army. Girls like this game too. :p

  • J

    This convo is making me seriously sad! Haven’t you ever enjoyed just holding hands with a person?

    If it’s at all helpful, Jackie, DH and I still hold hands.

  • Ramble

    I grew up in the suburbs of New Jersey. Most people I know plan on living in a city (not necessarily NYC) for work for at least a few years after college, and then moving back out there when they settle down a bit more. I don’t think there is much of a nightlife scene for young people where I grew up.

    Susan, it was a genuine question that I asked her and her thoughts and experiences perfectly match what I already thought.

    Girls really want to move into a city. And, I don’t blame them. I love living in the city.

    And no one is asking her to meet The Situation in White Plains, or Freeport or Scotch Plains.

  • Lokland

    @Charlotte

    “Isn’t the whole point of dating/LTR/marriage whatever to find some kind of joy in another and feel excited at least some of the time?!”

    For the first couple months.
    After that its more based on routine, boredom and actually caring about the other person and not the kicks you get being around them.

    You can hop relationship to relationship if you want (nothing wrong with it, sorry gents) or you can be in a relationship without the butterflies.

    Very, very, very. very few couples maintain that excitement for a long period of time… though some manage it for a lifetime.

    Wikipedia limerance if you want to know more.