20 Years Later, Men and Women Are Still From Different Planets * Hooking Up Smart : Hooking Up Smart

Bob

First!

pvw

Second:

applied feminist theology has been the demonization of sex differences.

Me: Hmm…I read this and I thought, that sounds like it would be an interesting class at a seminary somewhere in New England, ie., ultra liberal Episcopal Divinity School in the “People’s Republic of Cambridge,” Mass.

On the other hand, I realize what you are getting at, those who use feminism as a secular religion, and women’s studies departments might as well be seminaries for this type of secular theology….

I can always tell when I have to get my female graduate students to broaden their perspectives on feminist theory, ie., when they have spent too much time in the “seminary.” A common trait of tunnel vision; I’m seeing it right now with two students as they work on their research papers.

I had the Mars/Venus book back then; not sure where I put it, though….

INTJ

Nice post.

JP

@pvw:

“A common trait of tunnel vision; I’m seeing it right now with two students as they work on their research papers.”

Don’t leave us in suspense.

Why don’t you explain this a little further…

http://loveashley.net Ashley

I can’t get behind the idea that relationships are best with the woman being pursued. My best relationships would have never happened if I hadn’t made a move, and I think that has to do with the fact that men do not pick up on subtle hints of interest. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard “I had no idea you liked me” even after I tried to show my interest, all but spelling it out for them.

And the idea that men are on a mission to please her and fulfill her needs…could this dynamic possibly lead to why men feel many women are vain, entitled, and selfish?

Side thought: Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed). I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. I wonder if this is simply what the backlash against feminism is all about.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The conversation here got off to a good start without me, thanks everyone!

@Ashley

I can’t tell you how many times I have heard “I had no idea you liked me” even after I tried to show my interest, all but spelling it out for them.

This is what I was thinking of when I said that some of the advice doesn’t fit the current SMP perfectly. Men definitely approach less than they did 20 years ago. In addition to the understandable fear of rejection, I think that feminism has made it much more difficult for men to get a read on what women want. Is she DTF or someone looking for a relationship? I’ve heard quite a few stories from men who were literally dragged into bedrooms by women at parties. They feel torn – penis says yes, brain says no. Several of these episodes have been aborted by guys midway, I might add. In one case, the guy felt really defensive and said he felt like he was being raped! He finally said no and got the hell out of there.

The problem is that for people who are not looking for casual, the traditional model of male pursuit is far more effective. Many times a guy does appreciate being singled out for special treatment, and he may happily go along for the ride, but he is likely to invest less because he didn’t have to work for it.

I’m all for women indicating interest as clearly as they can. That’s what flirting is for. Making actual moves, though – that robs the guy of the opportunity to be the male.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed)

There is no question that men feel less needed today, and they are less needed, financially speaking. However, there are many ways in which most women do need men in order to fulfill their life’s purpose, and to find happiness.

Political messages that men and women are the same obscure the real needs the sexes have for one another and make it much harder for people to vocalize them without being shamed. As I covered in a recent post, young men grow up with cultural messages that promiscuity is the goal, and they are made to feel ashamed for wanting connection and intimacy in addition to sex.

Finally, I will agree with others that the word threatened does not apply here. The man who is secure in his own skin is not threatened by a woman’s achievements. If she adopts an alpha male persona, though, it’s unlikely men are going to find her attractive. This is a serious problem for many high achieving professional women – they have had to behave in very male ways to succeed in a male world. I can recall feeling that way myself when I worked in corporate America and consulting. (In fact, acting female in those environments leads to being harrassed sexually, but that’s another story.)

So it’s not that female achievement threatens men, it’s that most high achieving females become ball busters on their way up, losing their femininity completely.

Lokland

“I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. ”

*Raises eyebrow*

Richard Aubrey

The pieces of Gray’s work that Susan cites are expanded upon in Crabb’s
“Men, Women, Enjoying the Difference”.
There’s a profound, absorbing review of the book on Amazon.

http://loveashley.net Ashley

“*Raises eyebrow*”

Hey don’t look at me. The “manosphere” is consumed with preaching to women to not wait until it’s too late (their idea of too late if about after 25 when a woman’s appearance starts to diminish).

doomwolf

@Ashley

“Side thought: Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed). I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. I wonder if this is simply what the backlash against feminism is all about.”

To your first thought, I would say yes, atleast as far as I am concerned. If a woman can look after herself and makes significantly more money than me, what would I have to offer in the mix? This is basically why I have no interest in pursuing a couple women I know going into law & medicine respectively.

As to the second thought, I haven’t seen or heard anything like that around here, but Ottawa is a government town, so politically correct civil servants abound here, the type that wouldn’t say sh*t if their mouth was full of it. People here can be pretty boring sometimes.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

*Grabs popcorn*
I’m getting the feeling this is going to be one of those posts

JP

@doomwolf:

“This is basically why I have no interest in pursuing a couple women I know going into law & medicine respectively.”

Law.

Uh, not a money/prestige profession.

More like a “help me escape this career trap” profession.

Sassy6519

*Pulls up a chair next to Anacaona with a package of Twizzler’s pull-and-peel*

Girl, me too!

Passer_By

@doomwolf

“If a woman can look after herself and makes significantly more money than me, what would I have to offer in the mix?”

But does that mean you are “threatened” by her? Or just making a rational assessment of the likelihood of a successful approach and subsequent relationship? I don’t the female obsession with characterizing men as “threatened”, as though the problem is some phobia or psychological inadequacy, when in reality that are just correctly diagnosing a situation (on a statistical basis).

@ashley

“I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. ”

That’s a wild overstatement and sounds like that silly “barefoot and pregnant” meme.”

“I wonder if this is simply what the backlash against feminism is all about.””

Right, because only psychological inadequacy could possibly make men react negatively to a political movement whose goals (at the top) are to systematically strip them of rights and resources.

pvw

@JP November 30, 2012 at 6:59 pm

@pvw:

“A common trait of tunnel vision; I’m seeing it right now with two students as they work on their research papers.”

Don’t leave us in suspense.

Why don’t you explain this a little further…

Me: Applied feminist theology, where each student adheres to some form of liberal feminist theory, ie., finding anti-feminists or even conservative feminists shocking because they are incapable of critiquing liberal feminism, ie., that absolute equality forces women to meet a standard of equality that views equality through men’s eyes–they have to be equal on men’s terms, to be exactly like men–maleness is the standard.

JP

” I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25.”

I’m fairly certain that the children before 25 idea was originally my wife’s idea, not mine.

pvw

@JP: Or lots of victimology…not being able to see that women can be dangerous to themselves or other people, ie., when they decided to associate with unsavory men….

JP

“ie., that absolute equality forces women to meet a standard of equality that views equality through men’s eyes–they have to be equal on men’s terms, to be exactly like men–maleness is the standard.”

Taken to the logical extreme, that would result in a lot of women losing a lot of fist fights.

Lokland

@Ashly

How do you define “many men”?

Personally, I would not define “many woman” as cuckolders though they represent 1-2 of every 100 women. A significantly higher frequency than men who are even aware of the manosphere.

It’s like wondering onto an NBA court and concluding many men are 6′ tall.
or
Walking into a mental hospital and concluding many people are crazy.

If you go to somewhere that aggregates a certain type and then draw a conclusion and apply it across the general populace your bound to be mistaken.

In my first example, if I watched jerry Springer I could probably conclude many women are cuckolder’s but I would be incorrect to apply it across the pollution.

JP

“@JP: Or lots of victimology…not being able to see that women can be dangerous to themselves or other people, ie., when they decided to associate with unsavory men….”

This one sounds more amusing.

What’s the academic logic behind this one and what real world changes are proposed?

pvw

@JP:

Taken to the logical extreme, that would result in a lot of women losing a lot of fist fights.

Me: Or the recent lawsuit I heard about regarding servicewomen wanting to go into combat. They want combat roles in order to rise through the ranks, etc. I would have thought those absolute equality chicks would have gotten a clue when Rostker v. Goldberg established that women didn’t have to register for the draft, the ERA failed and, and EEOC v. Sears indicated the rise of cultural/difference feminism….

http://loveashley.net Ashley

My fault, I should have clarified I was referring to red pill men.

Lokland

“rrect to apply it across the pollution.”

Hmmm.
That must have been a mental slip on what I think of Jerry Springer.

*population

pvw

@JP:

victimology…..This one sounds more amusing.

What’s the academic logic behind this one and what real world changes are proposed?

Me: Criminology type stuff…women as girlfriends of alpha gang bangers in places like LA where they can be caught up in the system, an interest in using protectionist policies, ie., they are not the ones involved primarily in the gang bangers, but they are vulnerable merely because of who their partners are–don’t charge them with crimes, ie., as accessories, etc.

Lokland

@Susan

Nice post.

I do disagree on receptiveness.
Being only receptive is the equivalent of doing nothing and expecting everything.

Nurturing is feminine, it is an active state, not receptive.

A balance of the two is better.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Being only receptive is the equivalent of doing nothing and expecting everything.

Nurturing is feminine, it is an active state, not receptive.

There’s already been some good conversation about receptivity vs. responsiveness. I don’t think Gray means to say that women “do nothing.” They must actively create opportunities to invite a man in. They must welcome him and encourage his approach. Then when he takes action, they should reward it with responsiveness.

Nurturing is feminine, and obviously crucial in a relationship, but it’s not quite what women should be going for in the initial stage before she knows him. In fact, I think women who presume too much in this regard are guilty of “overgiving” in a way that makes men pull away.

Gray does not use the words dominant and submissive, but we can think of this as a mating dance where the male leads.

HanSolo

Men are motivated and empowered when they feel needed.

Most men do need to be needed–with some narcissists and similar excluded. I think that’s why a lot of young men are checking out. They didn’t feel welcomed or needed in the more girl-friendly school system growing up. They don’t feel needed by women (and in some ways they aren’t needed, or as much).

Women may not need men as much financially anymore so women interested in having a good relationship should communicate they ways they do need and appreciate men in general and the specific man they are with or trying to be with.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

They didn’t feel welcomed or needed in the more girl-friendly school system growing up.

This is a good point. When we teach males from birth that their exuberant physicality, for example, is bad and detrimental to the well-being of the group, we create a shame cycle that is bound to reveal itself in mating later on. How could it not?

JP

@PVW:

“Or the recent lawsuit I heard about regarding servicewomen wanting to go into combat. They want combat roles in order to rise through the ranks, etc.”

As long as they are using a gun, they are evenly matched against the enemy.

Unarmed…eh, not so evenly matched against the enemy.

Passer_By

@jp
“As long as they are using a gun, they are evenly matched against the enemy.”

Even if not hand to hand, combat involves more than just shooting. For one thing, it involves carrying a lot of heavy shit through difficult terrain.

HanSolo

Female expectations are a turnoff for men.

I am a very giving person and love to do thoughtful and special things for a woman I love. I love her to be grateful and let me know how much she loves that I do those things for her, whether it’s a gift or great sex or holding her when she’s sad or just lifting a box.

If she reinforces my giving with gratitude and some giving of her own then I will continue to give. She can even in a non-demanding way let me know something she would love for me to do for her within the context of me being free to do it or not and that she’ll love me anyway and I will likely do it.

However, if all I am feeling is that she is demanding everything and never grateful for it because I’m just barely meeting or not even meeting her demands then I’ll withdraw, at first temporarily and eventually permanently if things don’t change. This is where nagging and entitled attitudes really turn me off and I believe a lot of other men.

“I loved being with you in Tahiti. I’ll never forget it!” will motivate me to plan the next romantic trip much more than hearing, “We never go anywhere anymore. You’re so cheap!”

Or, “It’s not where we go but being together” will make me more likely to want to go for the more expensive vacation, knowing that even if we did the cheaper one that that would be wonderful too.

HanSolo

@Ashley

In this environment of men being seen as potential rapists, creeps and stalkers, combined with nuclear rejections and having been rejected many times in the past, the woman showing more interest is important to put him at ease that she will not categorize him as that. So, good job in showing more interest than you thought might have been needed.

Men do need to feel needed. I think that being needed emotionally and sexually can make up a huge part of the not being needed financially (as much) anymore.

HanSolo

@Ashley

Also, there’s a difference between you making enough of a move to give him the green light to pursue and you doing all the pursuing. I think giving him the green light and then letting him do a lot of the pursuing (though not necessarily all) can be good.

How did things work with you after you made the initial efforts?

Tom.s

“If a man does not have the opportunity to pull away, he never gets a chance to feel his strong desire to be close. If women insist on continuous intimacy then he will almost always be trying to escape and distance himself. He will never get a chance to feel his own passionate longing for love.”

This sums up my last relationship. I tried telling this to her for over a year. She literally could not understand what I was talking about and always took it as a ‘step backward’.

Well, I finally gave up after the nagging of continued intimacy took its toll on me. What a shame, she was almost perfect outside of this particular problem…

HanSolo

@Tom.s

You should have played her this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0McfH-hweQ

doomwolf

@ Passer By

“Even if not hand to hand, combat involves more than just shooting. For one thing, it involves carrying a lot of heavy shit through difficult terrain.”

100% correct. I’m in the Canadian military, I’ve seen female infanteers in the reserves. With a couple of notable exceptions, they’re not as good as the guys-don’t have the same muscle mass, statistically speaking a higher percentage of them injure themselves. Also, having them around changes the group dynamics among the guys, especially if they sleep around. Given the macho (for lack of a better word) culture of the combat arms, this is a guaranteed way for everyone to lose respect for you. Whether or not that is “fair” is irrelevant, it’s what happens.

Also, they aren’t treated equally – they have their own (substantially easier) PT test. I have to do a minimum of 19 pushups (which isn’t even that many), a woman my age doing the same job only has to do 9. Relative grip-strength scores are 75 and 50.

doomwolf

@Passer By cont’d

“But does that mean you are “threatened” by her? Or just making a rational assessment of the likelihood of a successful approach and subsequent relationship? I don’t the female obsession with characterizing men as “threatened”, as though the problem is some phobia or psychological inadequacy, when in reality that are just correctly diagnosing a situation (on a statistical basis).”

It’s always been more of a feeling with me rather than something I went an analysed, but possibly/probably. I supposed “threatened” would be better meant as “do not forsee realistic chance of success”.

Mike M.

@Ashley:

There’s a difference between a woman actively pursuing a man, and tactfully inviting him to pursue her.

BroHamlet

@Ashley

Side thought: Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed).

Personally, no. I have plenty to offer, even to a woman who makes more than me. I think a lot of people don’t consider that there are other sources of value, and many, many other things that make a person interesting. Anyone who thinks that money or credentials can be used as the sole classification of people has too much faith in the system and the pieces of paper it stamps to give people a place in it. I don’t make a habit of being threatened by any person, mostly for that reason. Wealth, power and social cache, etc. are defined by the prevailing society, but how much bearing should keeping up with the joneses have on your life and your aspirations? My answer: not too much, and you should probably think about where you stand on this and live your life accordingly.

@doomwolf

To your first thought, I would say yes, atleast as far as I am concerned.

So, your only value is a paycheck? Come now. There are people who toil in obscurity doing humanitarian work in third world countries, and I would count those people MORE important to the world than a corporate lawyer busting their ass to make partner and the high six figure income it promises.

I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. I wonder if this is simply what the backlash against feminism is all about.

Who is trying to do this? The <1% of the total population of men that make up commenters on "manosphere" blogs? No disrespect, but this is such an overplayed and unfounded meme that it can't even be taken seriously anymore. Men (and women too) are actually less interested in marriage and kids these days until much later in life, and men don't want to keep women from doing anything. Many of us are too busy building our own futures to worry about a woman's. Feminism has run it's course, and largely isn't about equality, or even about the interests of the average woman anymore, and that much has been explored in depth on this blog if you read back in the archives.

http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

Ashley:

Best way to encourage a man, hands-down: make eye contact, look away FIRST, then smile demurely. Super easy for the woman because you don’t have to smile and give eye contact simultaneously; gives the man confidence by putting him in the dominate frame. If you make a man break eye contact first, you fail.

When women do this to me the first thing I do is look at their ring finger. Then I say hi if I like what I see.

Clarence

BroHamlet:

“Feminism has run its course…”

Yeah, why don’t you tell our politicians that as the feminists are more plugged into the political process than ever, esp. when it comes to laws involving marriage/divorce and family formation. I see someone sticking their head into the sand and at the same time throwing a few million men and women whose lives or families or both have been ruined under the bus…

As far as women pursuing men, I’m all for it. I think every woman should do an “active pursuit” at least once just to get a freaking idea of what it is like and I fully encourage the woman who like gentler or shyer (or awkward) men to at least try approaching those men, and by “approach” I don’t mean send a hairflip signal or something I mean actively chat up or even ask out.

I will never shame a sexually aggressive woman, nor will I ever shame a woman for approaching me, and while I don’t mind other men’s preferences in pursuit/pursuing if I ever see some guy shaming a gal for an approach I’ll treat him just as I would a rude woman and show my disapproval in very vocal and cutting terms.

JP

“As far as women pursuing men, I’m all for it. I think every woman should do an “active pursuit” at least once just to get a freaking idea of what it is like and I fully encourage the woman who like gentler or shyer (or awkward) men to at least try approaching those men, and by “approach” I don’t mean send a hairflip signal or something I mean actively chat up or even ask out.”

I grew up thinking that this is how life worked.

Meaning the woman pursuing you part of things.

It never occurred to me that I should be going out of my way to meet women, so to speak.

Number of times I asked out a woman with any chance that I would be recjected? Zero. Nada. Zilch. That’s right. Zero.

How does this not happen to Cooper?

JP

“Yeah, why don’t you tell our politicians that as the feminists are more plugged into the political process than ever, esp. when it comes to laws involving marriage/divorce and family formation. I see someone sticking their head into the sand and at the same time throwing a few million men and women whose lives or families or both have been ruined under the bus…”

Hey, this is one of those comments that says “delete me”.

I think I’m getting the hang of this comments section.

Clarence

JP:
I have no idea what you are babbling about.

Who is Cooper?

Lokland

@Clarence

“Who is Cooper?”

We all felt a distinct lack of figure-headed-ness.
Susan is the creator of this fine blog but we all needed someone to worship.
Susan subsequently created Cooper.

Cooper now serves an all-purpose representative of HUS.

However, you can’t look him in the eye or directly speak to him or you burst into flames.

Susan said so.

Joe

Girl, me too!

Sassy & Ana, forget that nonsense. You two are in the middle of this discussion whether you know it or not!

INTJ

Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed).

Only if she has the attitude that she doesn’t need a man. An attitude which such women usually do have.

INTJ

On another note, I was curious about what Mr. Nervous Toes said about attractiveness on PoF and OKC. So I created a male and a female profile on OKC, and looked at the selection of matches. No comparison. The male profiles were way better, both in terms of photo attractiveness and profile content.

Sai

…I didn’t realize men wanted/needed so badly to do things this way.
I guess I need to be really grateful if somebody holds another door for me. (I do that for people too, though.)

A Definite Beta Guy

Hello Ashley,

It is a nice to hear from a new person

Successful women are not intimidating to me, personally. I am used to successful women. My mother is a high-ranking accountant at a Fortune 50 Company and my sister is a doctor. On the other hand, my father is a college dropout and my brother-in-law is a stay at home dad.

I also am a child of the UMC, and am quite familiar with women who have a lot of successes. National champion debaters, etc…

Your successes aren’t really that intimidating. If anything, on their own, they are a plus. I like successful women, as I would also like successful daughters.

The intimidating part about women is quite different!

-I could cry at my grandfather’s funeral, and get dumped for not being manly enough
-I could commit myself fully to a woman, and she could drop me at a moment’s notice for the new hot model
-I might try to be nice to my girlfriend, and then get dumped because it turns out I failed a shit test
– I could try to be nice to a girl I am dating, but she stops because it is “too nice too soon.”
-I could invest a lot into a girl, and delay sex, only to realize she’s been regularly banging dudes within hours of meeting them (very painful for a guy)

And worst of all…

I know this can happen, but it seems the culture I am living in is now designed in a way where women view me as the enemy. That my feelings don’t count for anything. That, even being nice, I am viewed as an oppressor, or creepy, or a potential rapist. That I am nothing more than a plaything or an emotional tampon. That I am disposable and girls do not really want to commit to me. That I could be openly mocked for even THINKING of getting with certain girls.

For me, career success has absolutely nothing to do, at all, with my disdain for feminism or my former fear of women.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Sassy & Ana, forget that nonsense. You two are in the middle of this discussion whether you know it or not

Lo siento no hablo ingles

Sassy6519

@ Joe

Sassy & Ana, forget that nonsense. You two are in the middle of this discussion whether you know it or not!

*Throws twizzler at Joe’s head*

Shhhhhhhhh! I can’t enjoy this thread with you distracting me.

Susan!

Susan, I don’t get it. Why am I banned yet again? By the way you said you deleted the posts on the previous thread last night of me and Just1z having a pissing contest, but we didn’t, and you didn’t.

You deleted my posts about precocious puberty in boys and its possible links to porn, which I was curious to get your opinion on . Then Just1z chimed in with his thoughts on the matter. There was no “pissing contest”.

What gives Aunt Sue?

doomwolf

@INTJ

‘Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed).’

“Only if she has the attitude that she doesn’t need a man. An attitude which such women usually do have.”

That’s what I was trying to convey earlier.

Joe

[Ducks, affixes thumb firmly to nose and says…]
PPPTHTHTHTHPPPPP!!!!!

What? You think this thread isn’t about you two too???
BTW, Thank you; I love twizzlers!

Susan!

“Best way to encourage a man, hands-down: make eye contact, look away FIRST, then smile demurely. ”

Doesn’t work on extremely shy or introverted guys. They might like it, sure. But they won’t approach, or very rarely so. We must approach them. Ashley knows what she’s talking about.

I never bought into this pop culture conspiratorial “war of the sexes” meme. I’ve never felt myself separate from my husband or any of the men I dated and became close to. We were as one.

All the other propaganda is meant to alienate men and women from one another.

Susan!

Its similar propaganda to the bizarre American concept of new fathers being “jealous” of their brand new infant babies. Don’t wanna sound prejudice against my fellow citizens but I’ve honestly NEVER heard such nonsense being spread in any other country. Obviously there was a profit to be made somewhere out of couples believing that.

Susan!

Mr. Nervous Toes, I left a comment a week or two ago aimed at you and your universalization of British Victorian values when it came to female sexuality and “hysteria”. In other words, that fraud was propagated by Victorian British “doctors” and and others trying to make money off of the demonization of masturbation and other forms of sexuality beyond repressed Victorian “missionary” position. Create the problem – provide the solution = profit for oppurtunistic scam artists.

It was by no means universal.

Many of the rest of the world had figured by puberty how to produce orgasm through masturbation WITHOUT having to pay some dude to use “appliances” on us.

Really, its not rocket science. Trust me on that.

jlw

“Most men do need to be needed–with some narcissists and similar excluded.”

I struggle with this comment. Don’t most classic narcissists drink in being the needed and important guy?

HanSolo

@jlw

Yes, they need the adulation.

I meant to say that most men need to be needed and will respond fairly positively when they are needed.

HanSolo

The narcissists and manipulators and attention vampires will be the ones that take and take and don’t give anything or much in return to the giver. These are then the men that some women complain about in saying that you shouldn’t give to men.

Related to this is women who give a lot to men who are out of their league and don’t get much in return and wonder why. The classic example of this is the woman who gives sex to the man who is 2+ points higher in value and “needs/wants” him for a relationship and doesn’t get it.

Susan!

“Related to this is women who give a lot to men who are out of their league and don’t get much in return and wonder why. The classic example of this is the woman who gives sex to the man who is 2+ points higher in value and “needs/wants” him for a relationship and doesn’t get it.”

I married and always dated at least 2 points higher in looks than myself and always got what I wanted from the relationships. No complaints really, except from, ironically, the guys who were only 1 point higher or my equals.

Great looking guys often get a bad rap and I chalk that up to sheer jealousy. They are often the sweetest and kindest guys around.

JuTR

Man’s role has traditionally been that of protector and provider, but today, you’d better find some way to provide utility in some other fashion, or you won’t fare well in today’s SMP.

The government provides all the protection women need today. Men are dangerous, and government appointed authority figures are trustworthy, as all children are taught in school.

Provisioning as an masculine asset is minimal in this society. We live in a land of plenty, where 80% of our folks in poverty sport air conditioning, and even the 20% without still have cellphones and TVs. Wealth transfers through government coffers ensure a minimal degree of stigma and a great degree of privacy.

So yeah, with all these strong, independent women, some men will struggle to find some way to feel like they are adding value and will avoid relationships which will leave them feeling inadequate.

INTJ

Btw Susan, have you seen this article on Good Men Project? http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/are-husbands-really-assholes-or-do-wives-just-think-they-are/

Cooper

“all but spelling it out for them.”
*chuckles*

@Ashley
I definitely think you do the “approaching” and still allow a guy to pursue. A shy guy may require spelling it out for them…
Like how Susan related it to a rubber band – girls can initiate the back and forth.

@Lokland
Drinking and blogging, this evening? (Wtf? Lmao)

HanSolo

@INTJ Watching more Game of Thrones? I want the new season!

HanSolo

@INTJ

Good article about the pushover husbands thinking they’re pleasing their wives by doing that. My dad is definitely that way. I’m not sure what % of husbands are that way but there is a certain “wisdom” amongst many married guys that you have to just not argue too much and really pick your battles to keep harmony in the home. This phenomenon is real. I wonder how widespread it is amongst different SES and racial demographics. (And there are women who are in similar situations as well.)

I don’t put up with nonsense from my mom and so she rarely tries it with me (and she is a good woman so not trying to rag on her). I just think she would be happier in the long run if my dad was a bit more assertive, though she’d argue and not like it in the short term, once she got used to that things would be better. Not sure how to get my dad to realize it since he’s so bought into his identity as the sacrificing pleaser. The plus side is he is a very kind, good guy.

Susan!

Susan, I thought you’d be interested in this;

http://postmasculine.com/does-promiscuity-ruin-you-as-a-potential-husband

Read the comments. Athol Kay leaves a comment and the reaction of the other, young men reflects perfectly the difference between the younger (hotter, tighter), more liberal PUA mindset and the Manosphere’s often stuffy conservativism which borders on bitter revenge. Athol doesn’t strike me as bitter per se but Dalrock and the other conservative MRA guys certainly do.

I’m socially and sexually conservative too (by choice, not by force, hence I’m not bitter), but I’d take a laid back, chilled out PUA over them any day. Of course they would cry, “see! even plain janes want ‘alpha assholes’ ” but those guys are neither alphas nor assholes.

They are just young, happy liberals.

And that right there is the huge gaping chasm between the PUAs and the angry MRA right wingers who want to control women and return to some fictional 1950s fantasy. Its also the reason why “game” will never work for the old MRAs. Game denotes play. Playfulness requires some level of joy.

You don’t get a sense of joy out of the MRAs. None whatsoever. And that lack of a genuine love of life is a major lady boner killer.

Society’s Disposable Son

Simply put this is why most of us menz are frustrated with teh wimminz. This one made me think about my past relationships and puts things into perspective. The whole needing to feel needed is big for me when it comes to dating.

I know people have been championing online dating but I’ve had pretty fail results but wanted to toss Susan an idea. Make a fake male profile and just browse and read women’s profiles. I see a few decent ones but you might be surprised how many profiles pretty much as state “I don’t need a man for anything” (then why are you on a goddamn dating site!?) to having bullet point lists of requirements to bother sending them a message, It really ties in the whole needing to needed sentiment and giving up trying fulfill endless demands and outrageous expectations. If nothing else it’ll be a good way to help any HUS girls stand out big online….

That Good Man Project article….My family life is a good example of this… My mom (bless her heart) wanted the stereotypical white picket fence American family. My dad was never a pushover but she was always telling him how selfish he was no matter how out of his way he went for her. To make her dream scenario fall further from her grasp, she gave birth to a introvert who nearly failed high school and decided not to bother with college. Things were not very smooth in my MS-HS years. Lots of family shouting matches and my mom harping on us because we never met her demands. She more or less forced church activities and volunteering on me and my dad, which was a big source of familial discourse. She always used to try and shame my dad by frantically exclaiming “what will people think!?” if he tried to ditch out on church to go fishing.

It wasn’t until I turned 25 and moved back home after my failed LTR that she told for the first time she was proud of me. To put it in to context though, most of her friends children that did decent in school later became drug addicts and alcoholics. So I guess that put things into perspective for her… that college isn’t everything in the world.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Society’s Disposable Son

I see a few decent ones but you might be surprised how many profiles pretty much as state “I don’t need a man for anything” (then why are you on a goddamn dating site!?) to having bullet point lists of requirements to bother sending them a message, It really ties in the whole needing to needed sentiment and giving up trying fulfill endless demands and outrageous expectations. If nothing else it’ll be a good way to help any HUS girls stand out big online….

I hear you, and those women should get exactly what they deserve – guys as selfish and unempathic as they are. However, incentives drive behavior and those women are being rewarded for profiles like that!

Check out this story, it’s hilarious:

OK CUPID: AN EXPLORATION INTO JUST HOW LOW SOME GUYS WILL GO

Just1Z

@Plain Jane

Susan, I don’t get it. Why am I banned yet again? By the way you said you deleted the posts on the previous thread last night of me and Just1z having a pissing contest, but we didn’t, and you didn’t.

You deleted my posts about precocious puberty in boys and its possible links to porn, which I was curious to get your opinion on . Then Just1z chimed in with his thoughts on the matter. There was no “pissing contest”.

What gives Aunt Sue?

You may not believe this PJ, but I agree with you!

We had some cordial (bit rocky at the start, but we put that aside) conversation.

The youtube links I put up were initially unrelated to our conversation, they were just fun.

I think that Susan saw our names in a sequence of comments and for some reason (can’t imagine what reason *blatant smirk* okay maybe I can think of a couple) assumed we were at it again.

we were playing quite nicely – oh the injustice!

(maybe Susan just went into shock over that? )

Just1Z

@Sai
“I guess I need to be really grateful if somebody holds another door for me.”

nah.

1) look like you won’t rip the head off of any man doing something simply polite for you – i.e. not like a feminist. so, a slight smile?
2) really grateful is overegging the pudding. a nod and small smile? say hello?

hope things are going well, take care

Just1Z

@PJ
“Really, its not rocket science. Trust me on that.”
lmao

I think that the circumcision thing on boys (MGM) is an American sourced anti-masturbation thing, don’t have that anywhere else to the same degree. Kellogg was a proponent wasn’t he? he had plenty of wacky ideas.

see the movie ‘the road to Wellville’, it’s pretty funny at times
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111001/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
“A madcap portrayal of William Lightbody’s stay at the health farm run by cereal king Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. William’s wife, Eleanor, has persuaded him to go to Kellogg to have his system cleaned of impurities. Kellogg is very unconventional, and almost barbaric in his treatments.”

William Lightbody: Oh, no, no, I can’t eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt.
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Oh, it’s not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody.

Endymion Hart-Jones: The enemas take some getting used to, but, in time, you’ll learn to look forward to them like an old friend with a cold nose.

Interviewer: Sir, how often should one evacuate one’s bowels?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: One should never, ever, interrupt one’s desire to defecate. I have inquired at the Bronx and London Zoos as to the daily bowel evacuations of primates. It is not once, twice, or three times, sir, but four. At the end of an average day, their cages are filled with a veritable mountain of natural health.
Interviewer: And, sex?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Sex is the sewer drain of a healthy body, sir! Any use of the sexual act other than procreation is a waste of vital energy! Wasted seeds are wasted lives!
Interviewer: Uh, eating meat?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: “He that killeth the ox is as if he slew a man.” Each juicy morsel of meat is alive, and swarming with the same filth as found in the carcass of a dead rat. Meat eaters, sir, are drowning in a tide of gore. What is a sausage? A sausage is an indigestible balloon of decayed beef, riddled with tuberculosis. Eat and die! For I have seen many a repentant meat glutton his body full of uric acid and remorse, his soul adrift on the raft in the ocean of poisonous slime, sloshin’ against the walls of the body’s kitchen.
Interviewer: Smoking?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: The liver is the only thing standing between the smoker and death! Also certain other things have to be avoided… like, uh, feather beds, and romantic novels… and the, uh, touching of one’s organs. Masturbation is the silent killer of the night! The vilest sin of self-pollution! It is the sin of Onan!

Virginia Cranehill: The fresh air, the exercise, and the pleasure of a leather saddle between one’s thighs.
Eleanor Lightbody: Why, Virginia, what do you mean?
Virginia Cranehill: Bicycle smile, I believe they call it.

Just1Z

Men need:
■trust
■acceptance
■appreciation
■admiration
■approval
■encouragement

GirlWritesWhat has (another) cool video / transcript here
http://owningyourshit.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/transcript-of-men-not-marrying-how-deep.html

it’s generally a cool video (as per usual) but part of it addresses how men need to feel they are seen in society (or relationships) i.e. relevant to the post

And one thing the apexuals at the top, like Bill Bennett and Obama, feminists like Kaye Hymowitz and Katie Roiphe, and traditionalists like Suzanne Venker, will never realize is that using shame to try to coerce men to do what is expected of them isn’t going to work this time, because while it’s possible to shame a man into giving his life for his country if there’s a promise of respect in it, it’s impossible to shame someone into working his ass off and risking his future just for the joy of looking in the mirror and seeing Homer Simpson or Ray Barone looking back at him.

When the cost of society’s approval is the self-respect you derive from a positive identity, it ceases to be worth it to a lot of men.

it’s the same thing within a marriage. if you treat your hubbie as not-yet-adult who needs to be managed as a child…well, he’ll either fold (blue pill) or walk away (red pill). Portrayal of men in the media is poisonous in most sitcoms etc.

Clearly if you are looking for a relationship, you need to bear in mind what signals you send him regarding his worth. I can see that PLI reflects reality somewhat in starting out or STR but it’s not a great way to get to an LTR – why would he commit to someone who shows / feigns indifference?

Just1Z

@Han
“Not sure how to get my dad to realize it since he’s so bought into his identity as the sacrificing pleaser. The plus side is he is a very kind, good guy.”

Athol Kaye (married man sex life) has written books, how about a secret early xmas present for Dad? (if it’s secret he can choose to ignore it with no harm done). Maybe Dad can take a MAP (Male Action Plan) out for a spin, see what happens?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Married-Life-Primer-2011/dp/1460981731

Damien Vulaume

“When men feel good about themselves, they are most motivated to please a woman.
The more a man’s life is in order, the more he hungers for a woman to share it with.”

Of course. I’m surprised this should even need to be explained at all.

“A man automatically alternates between needing intimacy and autonomy.”

Yes. Gold observation. This I find to be at the core of misunderstanding in younger couples. Some girls tend to be “attention seekers”, and view those moments of male autonomy as a decreasing sign of interest for them.

“But: Too much intimacy, too quickly, can cause women to become needy and men to pull away.
When women “overgive” it compromises their position, and it prevents the excitement of anticipation and romance from building.”

That’s what many young girls should keep in mind when they step into the mating dance hall. And I haven’t met many men who, deep inside, keep the same level of respect for women they’ve slept with too early on or too easily with.
On the other hand, that doesn’t make a promiscuous girl necessarily an easy lay or
or “slutty” female. I wish some guys could understand that.

#24 “Lokland: I do disagree on receptiveness.
Being only receptive is the equivalent of doing nothing and expecting everything.
Nurturing is feminine, it is an active state, not receptive.
A balance of the two is better.”

That’s exactly what went through my mind when I read the post. Passive receptiveness is pretty much just that, nothing. Female nurturing is best when actively given in a balanced way. No overbearing nannies, please, but a minimum of active nurturing.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

“A man automatically alternates between needing intimacy and autonomy.”

Yes. Gold observation. This I find to be at the core of misunderstanding in younger couples. Some girls tend to be “attention seekers”, and view those moments of male autonomy as a decreasing sign of interest for them.

The biggest challenge for women is knowing when to go silent. In this era of social media, constant texting, etc. it’s become much harder. When I was young if a guy didn’t call you, he didn’t call. We rarely got closure, and short of confronting him directly at a social event, we were forced to go about our daily lives. If he came back into your life at some future point, well then you’d have some control over your response.

Today women usually make the mistake of reaching out when they shouldn’t. That is why there are phone apps that allow you to block all outgoing communication to a specific number while you’re still sober, preventing the always inadvisable drunk dialing fiasco.

Silence not only gives the guy an opportunity to reflect and miss you if he’s ever going to, it is also dignified. I know I lose respect for people who act foolish or set themselves up for humiliation. As Gray says, self-assurance, including self-respect, is a key part of femininity. That means no chasing guys, ever.

Damien Vulaume

Actually, the exact quote is: ” 2. Receptivity: The ability to receive what is given and not resent getting less; ability to benefit or find good in every situation.”
Now I realize that’s this is not related to “nurturing”.
In fact, “the ability to receive what is given and not resent getting less.”
is one of the more “generous” side of women that men often tread upon or take for granted.
If this can be considered as something more, in terms of generosity, then i’d say that women are often capable of something more in relationships. If a woman truly loves you, she will fight to her last breath with utmost courage, for you. A woman who behaves in a cruel bitchy way with a man is ALWAYS simply because she has no respect for him. She should move on to somebody else instead of toying with her pray. An overdominating man shouting down his wife or, the other way around, complaining about her bitchy behaviour should move on as well. But I’m opening doors already open here, don’t I?

INTJ

@ doomwolf

I have to do a minimum of 19 pushups (which isn’t even that many), a woman my age doing the same job only has to do 9.

Dude that is freaking pathetic. But then again most women can’t even do a pull-up…

INTJ

@ Ana

Lo siento no hablo ingles

Google Translate.

Richard Aubrey

Ref women and combat:
Let’s presume that, for this op, everybody is supposed to ruck up with two-thirds of body-weight. Figure that a man’s personal gear; weapon, armor, water, commo gear, etc is 40 lbs, and a woman’s is 35 lbs, smaller people getting smaller armor.
A woman weighs, say, 130, a man 180. The man has eighty pounds of carrying capacity left over, a woman has about fifty. That remaining carrying capacity is expendables, mostly ammunition of various kinds.
So for every woman we substitute for a man, we lose at least thirty pounds of ammo. And that presumes she can keep up with the guys in the first place.
And if we don’t gender-norm physical requirements, we’ll break, orthopedically speaking, probably six women trying to get one to qualify. But we will gender-norm requirements to satisfy tne feminists. Hell, any additional casualties can be blamed on the generals. So it’s all good.

INTJ

@ HanSolo

Watching more Game of Thrones? I want the new season!

I’ll get started on the second season now that my bandwidth has reset. I finished the first season day before yesterday.

Some thoughts: That healer woman sure tricked the Khalisee. Sweet revenge. Now I really hope Arya can avenge the butcher’s boy, Lord Stark, and everyone else by killing that prince. And rescue her stupid sister while she’s at it. The scene where Catelyn brokered a marriage alliance between the Stark kids and the Frey kids was hilarious. Poor Arya. I hope her future husband is a beta pedestalizer who will let her do what she wants. Also, now that it looks like Tyrion is going to be going steady with Shay, I hope she actually likes him and they can be a couple.

So, most attractive women in Game of Thrones season 1:
1) Shay
2) Catelyn
3) The Khalisee’s Darthrakee handmaiden

INTJ

@ Richard Aubrey

A woman weighs, say, 130, a man 180.

Unless he’s Asian.

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

“Receptiveness” seems closely related to “responsiveness,” as the latter term is sometimes used in sales training classes. The responsive person is attuned to the emotions of others, and prefers conversations which have emotional content to a “just-the-fact-ma’am” approach.

In addition to the “receptiveness” dimension, there is the “assertiveness” dimension…these are separate dimensions, not opposites; a person can be both highly assertive and highly responsive (such people are often quite charismatic)…or both low assertiveness and low responsiveness.

Don’t know if anyone has formally studied this model from a gender communications and mate-selection standpoint, but it may have potential.

One source on the model is here:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/preferences/social_styles.htm

A Definite Beta Guy

Nine pushups?

You have to be fucking kidding me. Who would put national security in the hands of people who can barely do 9 pushups? It’s mind boggling-ly stupid.

INTJ

@ Susan

The problem is that for people who are not looking for casual, the traditional model of male pursuit is far more effective. Many times a guy does appreciate being singled out for special treatment, and he may happily go along for the ride, but he is likely to invest less because he didn’t have to work for it.

Oh come on. There’s a difference between dragging a guy into a bedroom and giving him your phone number. The former is not effective for people who are not looking for casual. The latter is. It’s as simple as that.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

There’s a difference between dragging a guy into a bedroom and giving him your phone number. The former is not effective for people who are not looking for casual. The latter is.

I don’t know. I mean that literally – I really do not know. I’m going on what Gray says. Also, a blog I like a lot for women is Rules Revisited (which I link to in this post). Two great posts that are relevant here:

How to Make Yourself More Approachable

Bottom line:

If you get disheartened because men are not approaching you, or if you have an initial interaction with a guy you like and then he leaves or doesn’t take your number – tough luck. This is part of female game, just like approaching, being rejected and humiliated is part of a man’s. When a guy gets rejected, he doesn’t blame the girl; he blames himself. When I get turned down, I know that if I had been more confident or smarter, or otherwise a man of higher value, she would have been attracted to me. I make it my goal to always improve, so that next time I will walk away with her number. The same should go for you: when a guy walks away without your contact information, suck it up, figure out other ways to make yourself more attractive or personable (the other posts in this blog should help), then get back out there.

Also:

Don’t Initiate Contact

A man might make eye contact with you from across the bar, but unless he overcomes his fear or leaves his buddies in order to approach you, he isn’t into you enough. Don’t approach him. A man might say he wants to see you, but unless he calls to set up a date, he doesn’t care enough. Don’t call or text him. A man might tell you to come and visit him, but if he cares enough, he will come to you if you suggest it.

I could give all kinds of examples, but you get the point. By making it easy for a man, you risk wasting your time and energy on someone who is only interested in having sex with you, or maybe worse, someone who will actually agree to a relationship or even marriage, only to change his mind months or years later when he realizes he wants someone he considers better. Taking the initiative is not a right that men have over women; it is (or should be) a hurdle that women place in front of men to make them prove their interest.

…Later in a relationship a girl can start to initiate, but this should wait until she has a good gauge of his interest and commitment to her.

Shy men are like women that don’t dress well or take care of themselves physically: they need to change. Confidence is the most important male attribute for attracting women. The situation you described will hopefully be a learning experience for the guy who had a crush on you. And while it is somewhat regrettable that the relationship never happened, think about how much better of a man he will be once he learns from his mistake. If you’d initiated, he wouldn’t have learned and you’d be stuck dating a guy with no balls.

That sounds a bit harsh, I know, but if he’s right, then the woman initiating with a number close just isn’t going to work.

GudEnuf

” It’s very clear here at HUS that men and women communicate very differently. ”

British and Australians communicate differently, but that doesn’t mean there’s a biological explanation.

If anything, the past two decades have shown that women are *not* aliens. Iran and Sweden have shown that women can do STEM as well as men. The sex positive movement has shown that women can enjoy sex as long as they are in a safe environment. More and more women are dating men who make less money, so the “hypergamy” theory hold less water every day. I know we’ve had this conversation a million times but men and women have far more common than the manosphere presumes.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Gud Enuf

If anything, the past two decades have shown that women are *not* aliens.

The point of the title is not that women are aliens, it is that men and women do not speak the same language. Perhaps the best book on the differences in communication styles outside of mating is You Just Don’t Understand by Deborah Tannen. It was a NYXs bestseller for a full four years because it made so much sense and helped so many couples to improve their communication.

that doesn’t mean there’s a biological explanation.

Men’s and women’s brains do indeed look quite different – certain sections are larger in one sex or the other. However, you are correct that culture can play a large role. Is the typical nursery school scene of girls playing house and boys playing Ninja Turtles entirely cultural? No, I don’t think so. My son was eagerly pointing at fire trucks before he turned one, and my daughter was pretending to feed her stuffed animals before her first birthday.

ran and Sweden have shown that women can do STEM as well as men.

I’m not familiar with this – can you explain a bit more?

The sex positive movement has shown that women can enjoy sex as long as they are in a safe environment

It has proven that is true for 12% of women, max. And FTR, sex pozzies are not so concerned about safety. Recall Jaclyn Friedman’s trolling for partners on Craigslist and Tracy Clark-Flory’s taking a stranger (and porn star!) home to her apartment for sex.

More and more women are dating men who make less money, so the “hypergamy” theory hold less water every day.

Do you have some data to back up this claim? It wouldn’t surprise me if it were true, because more men are making less money. However, we don’t have a good sense of the quality of those relationships do we? It’s well understood that hypergamy declines when there is a shortage of men. That reflects an adjustment to market conditions, doesn’t it?

http://x OffTheCuff

INT: “But then again most women can’t even do a pull-up…”

I’d bet most adult men can’t either, unless they specifically train to do it. It took me a solid two months of daily effort to get that first one. Most guys I see are far too fat, or very obviously untrained.

INTJ

@ Susan

Lol the thumb wrestling guy realized she was a troll and counter-trolled her.

His thumb-wrestling comment was so obnoxious that I had to bail. He even grossed out a fake girl. Wow, good job.

Richard Aubrey

INTJ
True, about Asian men. However, a small man can be cut for not making requirements. A woman, not. It would be disparate impact, see.
Anyway, a man is generally stronger or can condition to a stronger state than a woman of the same height and weight.
There. I said it.
But figure swapping a squad of ten men for ten women. Lose three hundred pounds of killing stuff. Only the feminists would think this is a good idea.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

But figure swapping a squad of ten men for ten women. Lose three hundred pounds of killing stuff. Only the feminists would think this is a good idea.

Agreed. What I can’t figure out is why women would be so eager to step up to a more dangerous job. I don’t see the incentive for that increased risk.

Sassy6519

@ Susan Walsh

That link about OkCupid………..smh.

There is a reason that I deleted my OkCupid account, and that article has reminded me why.

doomwolf

@Richard Aubrey

Exactly.

Thought to be perfectly honest there aren’t *that* many women who volunteer for the combat arms compared to, say, RMS Clerk (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/resourcemanagementsupportclerk-78#video-0) which is what I am. I presume most women don’t jump at the chance to do a physically hard, dangerous job that involves carrying heavy loads, handling weapons, being bored a lot, in a culture that would resemble your high school boys’ locker room.

INTJ

@ OTC

I’d bet most adult men can’t either, unless they specifically train to do it. It took me a solid two months of daily effort to get that first one. Most guys I see are far too fat, or very obviously untrained.

Yeah for some stupid reason I used to be insecure about being able to do *only* about 10 pull-ups in a row. Then I tried Googling to find out how many the average guy can do, and found people estimating that the vast majority of adult men can’t do pull-ups.

I still need to learn to do a muscle-up though. I can do one-handed push-ups, and I can do a single handstand push-up, but not yet any muscle-ups.

GudEnuf

“The biggest challenge for women is knowing when to go silent.”

Au contraire, it’s the men who need to learn to shut and let women speak! Men are more likely to speak in a mixed group and when a woman does speak up, men are more likely to interrupt. It is dangerous to tell women that to be MORE quiet, especially in a relationship. If men can’t handle an articulate women, they’re just going to have to change.

(And yes, I am aware of this comment’s irony.)

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Gud Enuf

It is dangerous to tell women that to be MORE quiet, especially in a relationship. If men can’t handle an articulate women, they’re just going to have to change.

I’m not sure if you misunderstood my comment or this was deliberate. I was referring to silence as a strategy when two people are apart, not group conversational dynamics. When a woman is not hearing from a man, the smartest thing she can do is wait it out. Chasing him is no bueno.

As for boys interrupting girls, we had that experiment in the schools, and we succeeded in shaming boys into silence in math class. See lopsided college ratio for real-life long-term effect.

INTJ

@ Susan

Let me try to critique his post:

A man might make eye contact with you from across the bar, but unless he overcomes his fear or leaves his buddies in order to approach you, he isn’t into you enough. Don’t approach him.

Bullshit. Restricted guys are less likely to approach you than unrestricted guys. That doesn’t mean they aren’t into you enough.

A man might say he wants to see you, but unless he calls to set up a date, he doesn’t care enough. Don’t call or text him. A man might tell you to come and visit him, but if he cares enough, he will come to you if you suggest it.

This is definitely true. Once the approach has been made and he is no longer held back by shyness, he should be willing to actively put in effort. Otherwise he’s a cad.

I could give all kinds of examples, but you get the point. By making it easy for a man, you risk wasting your time and energy on someone who is only interested in having sex with you, or maybe worse, someone who will actually agree to a relationship or even marriage, only to change his mind months or years later when he realizes he wants someone he considers better. Taking the initiative is not a right that men have over women; it is (or should be) a hurdle that women place in front of men to make them prove their interest.

By creating the hurdle of requiring a man to take the initiative, you’re filtering for cads. Unless cads are your thing, that’s not a very good strategy.

…Later in a relationship a girl can start to initiate, but this should wait until she has a good gauge of his interest and commitment to her.

Yes, but he won’t get a chance to demonstrate his interest and commitment if they don’t approach each other.

Shy men are like women that don’t dress well or take care of themselves physically: they need to change. Confidence is the most important male attribute for attracting women. The situation you described will hopefully be a learning experience for the guy who had a crush on you. And while it is somewhat regrettable that the relationship never happened, think about how much better of a man he will be once he learns from his mistake. If you’d initiated, he wouldn’t have learned and you’d be stuck dating a guy with no balls.

This is good advice, but it should be conditional. If you’re attracted to confidence, you won’t be attracted to guys you have to approach. And it’s true that perhaps the majority of women are attracted to confidence. But there are people like Ashley who don’t require that confidence. For them, approaching men is a sound strategy.

By giving a guy your phone number, you’re giving him a clear signal that you’re interested in him. However, you’re also putting the ball in his court, thus forcing him to take initiative and demonstrate that he is truly interested in you.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

By giving a guy your phone number, you’re giving him a clear signal that you’re interested in him. However, you’re also putting the ball in his court, thus forcing him to take initiative and demonstrate that he is truly interested in you.

OK, let me play devil’s advocate here. (FTR, for years I have been advising women to give out their phone number when they like a guy.)

If you give a guy your phone number, he has not risked anything at all. He calls it knowing that he will not be rejected. For that reason, he will not attach as much value to it as a “win.” If he would not have pursued you on his own, but is amenable to having the date anyway, already the woman is starting out with a risk of “He’s just not that into you.”

This is a costly strategy because a woman can spend months or even years with a guy who ultimately confesses he never totally fell for her. By ignoring the role of men “displaying” and women “selecting” you have set up a situation where male investment does not develop to the same degree.

INTJ

@ Susan

Agreed. What I can’t figure out is why women would be so eager to step up to a more dangerous job. I don’t see the incentive for that increased risk.

They don’t. They don’t want to step up to jobs in the hard sciences either. Instead, they all go into liberal arts fields like women’s studies and then complain about the gender gap in the hard sciences.

http://x OffTheCuff

I haven’t looked at the data, INTJ. At my best, I could only manage a few sets of six in a row, so ten sounds exceptionally good. Heck, at my huge gym, there are tons of men in great shape, but there are only a tiny handful of ones that actually do them. I’ve seen zero, my friend who is there 2 hours a day has seen a total of one. (I actually am too bashful to work out there, I just take the kids to the pool. Prefer to use my own stuff at home.)

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

How does this post square with “men escalate physically, women escalate emotionally?” I have done mostly “pursuit” in terms of initiating increasingly more personal and emotional questions and conversations, which have worked to draw in men who are on the same wavelength. But according to this post, that is a no-no.

I was the one who asked for my husband’s email and private im information first, because he was going to just leave it as is and not actively pursue me. Incidentally every one of his ex’s had also pursued him. Lots of good guys don’t approach strangers and are not very forward. Taking initiative emotionally seems to yield better outcomes than merely being receptive.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Hope

How does this post square with “men escalate physically, women escalate emotionally?” I have done mostly “pursuit” in terms of initiating increasingly more personal and emotional questions and conversations, which have worked to draw in men who are on the same wavelength. But according to this post, that is a no-no.

That is an awesome question, I had to give it some thought. From my post on emotional escalation:

“The problem with this sense of entitlement is that it creates total passivity on the girl’s part. You don’t have very good control of your dating life if you are always waiting for a call or hoping the perfect guy is going to see you from across the room and say to his buddy, “See that girl in the red dress? I’m going to marry her.”

Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.

A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. Women want emotional intimacy during sex, but they have sex before creating a foundation of emotional connection. Doing that work is your job, not his. If you hope for commitment, it makes no sense to leave it to chance, dreaming that a guy will fall for you based on your looks alone, or because you’re good in bed. A man will offer commitment when he is sufficiently emotionally invested to make the tradeoff to forfeit sexual variety. Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.”

So the question is how do women create that investment? Here are the steps I recommended in that post:

1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him to avoid making him jealous.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
5. Share a lust for life.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.

“Each sex has a job to do in finding the balance between sex and commitment. Embrace your role and your responsibility from the start. Nurture the emotional connection from the moment you meet someone. ”

I think this list is compatible with Gray’s recommendations. All 6 of them are more receptive or responsive than dominant or leading, IMO.

What do you think?

Richard Aubrey

Agreed. What I can’t figure out is why women would be so eager to step up to a more dangerous job. I don’t see the incentive for that increased risk.

Susan. For the most part, it’s civilian feminists who want other women to do it. If there is an incentive, it’s for promotion. Combat arms service, and combat action, are considered good things to have, if you’re on the outside.
But officers and senior noncoms are promoted within their branch. Infantry guys are promoted, or not, as against other Infantry guys. The Adjutant General branch (Star, star upon my shield. Keep me from the battlefield) for example promotes or not within AG. You’re not competing with combat arms guys until, maybe, general.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Richard Aubrey

For the most part, it’s civilian feminists who want other women to do it.

Why don’t the women serving stand up and say no way? Surely they know better than anyone that they can’t carry the same weight in adverse conditions? I would also think that to the extent the army can target anyone specific, they’ll go after females first.

Is there no one who will stand up to this PC nonsense?

http://x OffTheCuff

INTJ: “By creating the hurdle of requiring a man to take the initiative, you’re filtering for cads. Unless cads are your thing, that’s not a very good strategy.”

I disagree. Non-cads can approach and take initiative just fine. It may increase the likelihood of cads, but it greatly decreases the likelihood of wimps – and women greatly prefer the former to the latter. Hope’s strategy is great for women, and it worked for her because she filtered like crazy and did it in a safe way (you can break any rule you want if you thoroughly understand why the rule exists) — but as a man you can’t wait around hoping for a Hope.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

As for the risk of “he’s just not that into you,” this is where the girl should assess how receptive he is to emotional probing. If a guy doesn’t care to reveal to you his innermost feelings and thoughts, then he’s not interested. That is how I filtered and sussed out the guys whose hearts were just not warmed up by me.

I think emotional escalation is key. It doesn’t matter if she gives out her contact info and made it “easy” to communicate. It does matter whether or not he will communicate with her on an emotional level. Most guys are of course reluctant to “give it up” so to speak, protective of their inner feelings, similar to how most girls are (or should be) protective of their bodies.

About “overgiving” — I think it really applies to the physical stuff. The guy should be pursuing increasing physical giving from the girl, while the girl “holds back” some to entice and reward him for giving up emotions to her. The girl has to assure him that she won’t hurt him emotionally (orbiting, LJBFing), while the guy has to assure her that he won’t hurt her physically (pump and dump, FWBing).

In the end the “dance” is a mutual back-and-forth, not simply girl sitting back and choosing from male displays.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

In the end the “dance” is a mutual back-and-forth, not simply girl sitting back and choosing from male displays.

I agree, and the woman who puts in the effort and signals both interest and loyalty is way ahead of the game. I don’t think that’s what Gray means be overgiving. I can think of one example of overgiving off the top of my head.

A young woman and guy got involved very suddenly and things escalated fast. It was the falling off a cliff kind of infatuation, and it was mutual. However, they hadn’t known one another long at all – there was no real foundation of intimacy as knowledge of the other person. Within a week or so she was essentially living at his place, shopping for groceries, making him fabulous meals, etc. She was a self-appointed helpmeet and sexual bombshell. He enjoyed all of this immensely for a time, naturally. He was crazy about her. After a couple of months, though, she began to grate on his nerves. He couldn’t grab a beer with his friends without her fussing – she wanted to come too. She was always around. She didn’t make many demands, but she wanted to be a part of his life every waking moment, and when he pulled away for some autonomy, she followed close behind to reestablish intimacy as fast as possible. No one but she was surprised when he ended things soon after.

Richard Aubrey

IIRC, from 1970, in Jump School, the minimum requirement was six dead-hang pullups, palms forward. Tough.
Tougher was the Airborne situp. Knees up, feet flat, nobody holding your feet down. Twenty-two of those.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Airborne situps are less difficult for me since I’m small. I do those all the time, could do 30 or so before I got pregnant. Pull-ups are also easier when you weigh less than 115lbs and have enough arm strength.

But I would never want to do active duty combat. Robert Heinlein had some great thoughts on this subject:

“Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick.”

Richard Aubrey

Hope. We also had to do eighty squats, butt to boot, in two minutes. I think that’s out now, considering knee damage. Not sure.
There’s a five-minute vid on youtube about how slick it is to go Airborne. Kind of overdone, but you get a look at the various exercises.
The Airborne situp flustrated a lot of guys who were otherwise in good shape. I liked them so much I did sets of seventy or so for eight or ten years after I got out. Tried to stay in shape because I figured Brezhnev was going west at any time and somebody might call and ask if I still could hold a map right side up.

A Definite Beta Guy

I can only do 3 pull-ups, and I feel pretty goddam pathetic.

I’ve finally gotten back into actually doing some cardio almost everyday. Need to get back into weights. I hate gyms, so I have a home weight set and just do P90X.

So sue me, I like pre-crafted exercise routines. At least I’m doing something

@ Susan, re: How Low Men Will Go
Young men have extremely powerful sex drives and will do a lot to satiate them in any way they can.

That being said.

Holy shit, those guys are creeps. But I gotta respect the guy who was negotiating for the deluxe package!

A Definite Beta Guy

1-507th Parachute Infantry Regiment

“In order to enter the course, the prospective student MUST score a MINIMUM of 60% on the lowest age group scale. This equates to 42 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and a 15:54 or faster on the 2-mile run for males and 19 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and an 18:54 or faster on the 2-mile run for females.”

mr. wavevector

Susan,

I think this post is both valuable and misleading. Valuable because it contains real truths. Misleading because of what it omits.

The valuable truth is this:

The way a woman makes him feel good, (and more interested) is by creating opportunities for him to succeed in truly fulfilling her needs. Without her to please, he is a man out of work. He needs a job, needs the opportunity to succeed in a relationship with a woman. This is an enormous boost to his fulfillment in life.

Men (at least those with strong pair bonding instincts, not the cads) do indeed want to be needed by a woman. They want to be able to do useful things like protect and provide. They want to take care of a woman. They get pleasure from making her happy.

But this alone is inadequate to understand the motivation of these men. In fact, it is dangerously misleading. It looks like men just want to be the cheerful servants of women, to be subservient to them – that all men want is to please, get a pat on the head and a “good boy”. As such, this post runs the danger of incurring the wrath of the manosphere in the same way Susan Venker has for her “War on Men” and subsequent capitulation to pressure from feminists.

The essential point that is missing is that men want something in return for all this that they give, and that thing is authority. They want a woman who will voluntarily grant him some authority over her in the relationship and accept him as her leader.

I know you know this, Susan, as your comment #84 and many other comments and posts make clear. But someone reading this post in isolation might get the opinion that all men desire is to serve women from a subordinate position.

The truth is just as women want a man they can look up to, men want a woman who looks up to him. This is hinted at by the 4th bullet point for what men need: admiration.

Why do men have this need for authority, leadership, or to be looked up to and admired? Because of hypergamy!

We know that many women want to “marry up” – to mate with a man of higher social status or prestige. Because men know this instinctively, they looks for signs that show that a woman considers them “up”: things like deference, accepting his authority, choosing him to be the leader.

Male leadership is the correlate of female hypergamy.

A woman who voluntarily chooses her man to lead her is signaling that she is attracted to him as a suitable mate – that her hypergamous desire is satisfied so she will be true to him. That is why men want to be “1 up” in the relationship. That is why so many women who are in love with a man will happily place him in the “1 up” position too. It is her sign of being invested in the relationship.

As I said, a woman who accepts her man as the leader is doing so voluntarily and out of attraction to him. It isn’t forced on her. She can rescind his “1 up” status if she chooses. But to do so is to communicate that she is no longer attracted to him. Like denying sex, repealing the status she bestows on her man is a sign that she is leaving the relationship.

Yes, I know, not all relationships are like that! I understand that the concept of 50-50 egalitarian relationship is the held up as the social ideal today. Certainly there are many couples who can make this work to varying degrees. I wish them all success.

But I agree with Susan that respecting sex differences will yield the greatest benefit for most couples. And when it comes to men, we should remember the importance not only of their desire to serve and please women, but to be admired by and lead them too.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@mr. wavevector

The essential point that is missing is that men want something in return for all this that they give, and that thing is authority. They want a woman who will voluntarily grant him some authority over her in the relationship and accept him as her leader.

I know you know this, Susan, as your comment #84 and many other comments and posts make clear. But someone reading this post in isolation might get the opinion that all men desire is to serve women from a subordinate position.

Hmmm, we may be about to get into a bit of an argument, partly semantic, but not entirely. Obviously, to the extent that you have an argument it is with John Gray rather than myself. Let me start by clarifying my position on male leadership.

1. I reject any notion that my husband has God-given or other formal authority over me, or that I am required to accept him as my leader. I view my marriage as egalitarian, but counter to the claims of Dalrockolytes, who claim that women always dominate in egalitarian marriages, the edge goes to my husband in ours.

2. I have described that I believe this is a natural outgrowth of our relationship and choices over the years, including his being the sole breadwinner. If I earned half the household income, I imagine that I would not just sit back and let him rule, even about financial decisions.

3. I do not believe that our dynamic is the only one that happy couples have, or that he is entitled to make decisions without my input or agreement. I have also said that there are some areas where Mr. HUS defers to me – most notably in the area of parenting.

4. I consider myself a strong and independent person, and therefore that is reflected in my marriage as well. These qualities are ones that my husband appreciates, and they do not mean that I am entitled or difficult to live with.

If I led you to imagine that I was a female of the Mrs. Dalrock variety, I am eager to disabuse you of that notion immediately. I do not accept that a woman should “know her place.”

Re John Gray’s analysis of the differences between the sexes, I don’t think he is saying that men live to serve women or be subordinate to them in any way. I think he is saying that relating to women is essential to man’s nature – indeed his reason for existing (and the same can be said of women – we exist to reproduce).

Gray says that men need:

trust
acceptance
appreciation
admiration
approval
encouragement

– and that women are in a position to amply provide these to the men they love. He does not say that men need to control women or even to lead them.

We know that many women want to “marry up” – to mate with a man of higher social status or prestige. Because men know this instinctively, they looks for signs that show that a woman considers them “up”: things like deference, accepting his authority, choosing him to be the leader.

I think you overreach here. The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment. The components of social status are dominance and prestige, and women value the latter more than the former. A man with prestige is well aware of his MV, and presumably uses it to attract a woman of even higher SMV than he could get without it.

Of course, the female desire for male dominance is very real, though on a spectrum. I would venture to say that among happily married couples, the percentage of women who are deferential and submissive is quite low. Again, I would not describe myself as such, nor would Mr. HUS, nor would he wish me to be.

Like I said, perhaps this is a matter of semantics, or perhaps it’s about the relative weight of power within relationships. I think that most successful relationships today are in the 40-60 egalitarian range. Obviously, relationships in the long tails – abusive wives on one end and abusive husbands on the other, produce very dysfunctional ways of relating.

Damien Vulaume

“About “overgiving” — I think it really applies to the physical stuff. The guy should be pursuing increasing physical giving from the girl, while the girl “holds back” some to entice and reward him for giving up emotions to her. The girl has to assure him that she won’t hurt him emotionally (orbiting, LJBFing), while the guy has to assure her that he won’t hurt her physically (pump and dump, FWBing).
In the end the “dance” is a mutual back-and-forth, not simply girl sitting back and choosing from male displays.”

Thank you for those wise words. It is all here.
I can’t understand the confusion I read in some comments here, from both genders.

INTJ

@ Richard Aubrey

IIRC, from 1970, in Jump School, the minimum requirement was six dead-hang pullups, palms forward. Tough.
Tougher was the Airborne situp. Knees up, feet flat, nobody holding your feet down. Twenty-two of those.

Piece of cake for ectomorphs.

INTJ

@ Susan

If you give a guy your phone number, he has not risked anything at all. He calls it knowing that he will not be rejected. For that reason, he will not attach as much value to it as a “win.” If he would not have pursued you on his own, but is amenable to having the date anyway, already the woman is starting out with a risk of “He’s just not that into you.”

Take this idea to the logical extreme and women should be nuclearly rejecting every guy and making him stalk and chase her to make sure he’s into her. I.e. the Rules. Obviously, that doesn’t work out so well, which is why we need to find a balance somewhere. And in many cases the girl giving out her phone number is part of that balance.

This is a costly strategy because a woman can spend months or even years with a guy who ultimately confesses he never totally fell for her. By ignoring the role of men “displaying” and women “selecting” you have set up a situation where male investment does not develop to the same degree.

Let me make an analogy. As a student, I sometimes get contacted by employers or universities for job or grad school opportunities. But they still expect me to take the initiative, apply for the job or grad school, and sell myself to them. Thus, the men are still “displaying”, and the women still “selecting”, but the women are first communicating that they want to be “displayed” to.

In addition, consider the equivalent risk to the guy. By expecting the guy to do the “displaying” and the woman to do the “selecting” without any initiative on the woman’s part, you’re creating a serious risk that the guy will be strung along by a woman who never fell for him. And the guys who’re averse to being strung along are the dads, not the cads. Which might help explain why guys are so reluctant to do the approaching.

JP

@OTC:

“I’d bet most adult men can’t either, unless they specifically train to do it. It took me a solid two months of daily effort to get that first one. Most guys I see are far too fat, or very obviously untrained.”

I can’t do a pull up and I generally don’t have a significant amount of strength at all.

The difference is that I have a significant endurance benefit, such that I’m a natural distance runner.

Escoffier

Yeah, hmmmm, I can do eight pull ups and sit-ups, I have no idea what my limit is, but 22 is no sweat, 4x that at least … and I can assure you I ain’t qualified for the 82nd Airborne …

INTJ

@ OTC

I disagree. Non-cads can approach and take initiative just fine. It may increase the likelihood of cads, but it greatly decreases the likelihood of wimps – and women greatly prefer the former to the latter. Hope’s strategy is great for women, and it worked for her because she filtered like crazy and did it in a safe way (you can break any rule you want if you thoroughly understand why the rule exists) — but as a man you can’t wait around hoping for a Hope.

What exactly do you disagree with?

JP

“We live in a land of plenty, where 80% of our folks in poverty sport air conditioning, and even the 20% without still have cellphones and TVs. Wealth transfers through government coffers ensure a minimal degree of stigma and a great degree of privacy.”

We live in an empire where there is significant risk that the wealth pumps will be turned off in the near future.

Susan!

Just1z,
“I think that the circumcision thing on boys (MGM) is an American sourced anti-masturbation thing, don’t have that anywhere else to the same degree. Kellogg was a proponent wasn’t he? he had plenty of wacky ideas.”

Yes I mentioned that too a few weeks ago in my response to Mr. Nervous Toes comment on the matter of “hysteria”.

Damien Vulaume

Mr wv: “A woman who voluntarily chooses her man to lead her is signaling that she is attracted to him as a suitable mate – that her hypergamous desire is satisfied so she will be true to him.”
Or, in other words, that she’s truly in love with him.
I think all this misleading gender equality talk is also too often equated to Mutual respect, which is a different thing (and of course step Number 1 in a relationship).

Just1Z

@Susan!
keep your head down!
best of luck, I’m off out for the night

Susan!

Just want to point out the chasm between the two mindsets;

Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life says:
“You’re also assuming that a woman of high quality is going to want to marry someone with a huge notch count. Most marriageble women are going to be repulsed by it.”

Mark says:
” Disagree strongly. You’re making a lot of unproven assumptions in those statements.”

Jon says:
“It also depends on your definition of “high quality” and the fact that you can use such a term as though it applies to all men equally tells me a lot about where your issues are.”

António says:
” Exactly. In my book, a judgemental woman is not quite “high quality”.

Zen says:
“Wait, back up. What do you mean “high quality” or “marriageble”?
Those are for each man to decide for himself. There is no class of women who are “better” than others, there is simply the question of what kind of girl do YOU want to marry? What makes YOU happy?”

_____

Game simply does not mix with an older, conservative, right wing mindset. Not saying Athol is right wing, but he is conservative, sheltered and a bit naive and his previous religious conditioning still influences him, he’s admitted as much. Add that to his participation on MRA blogs where the default setting is bitter, angry 50+ year old right wing conservative borderline WN (or sometimes blatantly so), and its obvious that MRAs have tried to hi-jack “game” for their own purposes which are incompatible with a young, free, liberal and happy go lucky crowd.

Society’s Disposable Son

@ Susan 86

That doesn’t really shock me… Some guys will always low ball…. and other guys… well when if you were starving you might end up begging for table scraps eventually….

Cooper

“I can only do 3 pull-ups, and I feel pretty goddam pathetic.

I’ve finally gotten back into actually doing some cardio almost everyday. Need to get back into weights. I hate gyms, so I have a home weight set and just do P90X.”

Yeah, I don’t like gyms. It’s something about paying a membership fee, for something I should be able to do myself. I know girl who pay for “bootcamps” and I tease them on how it’s compensating for their lack of motivation. Cause you shouldn’t have to enroll yourself into something you say your striving for – IDK. It’s certainly not the actually monetary value, cause I’ve spent probably x5 a gym membership on in-home equipment.
I have a tremendously small apt, but I can set up a benchpress.

The best pieces of equipment: a (mounted! Not removable!) pull-up bar ($80), and a Body Fat % scale (which water % too – $60)

Since injuring my right-index in August I haven’t been able to exercise nearly as effectively. Gripping with my right is still at 50%. (And my second surgery is schedule to be the new year – my tendon is stuck down, so I necessitate a Tenolysis.).
Two months ago, I’d easily do 20+ pull-ups while talking. (sorry to brag)
I’m probably not small fraction of that now, since I haven’t been doing much lately.

HanSolo

@Just1Z

Thanks for the book suggestion.

On another subject, US birth rates have hit their lowest level since reliable records started in 1920:

The overall birthrate decreased by 8 percent between 2007 and 2010, with a much bigger drop of 14 percent among foreign-born women. The overall birthrate is at its lowest since 1920, the earliest year with reliable records. The 2011 figures don’t have breakdowns for immigrants yet, but the preliminary findings indicate that they will follow the same trend.

The decline could have far-reaching implications for U.S. economic and social policy. A continuing decrease could challenge long-held assumptions that births to immigrants will help maintain the U.S. population and create the taxpaying workforce needed to support the aging baby-boom generation.

The U.S. birthrate — 63.2 births per 1,000 women of childbearing age — has fallen to a little more than half of its peak, which was in 1957. The rate among foreign-born women, who have tended to have bigger families, has also been declining in recent decades, although more slowly, according to the report.

HanSolo

Here’s the link to the low US birth rate story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us-birth-rate-plummets-to-its-lowest-since-1920/2012/11/29/ee7e8d16-3a3f-11e2-b01f-5f55b193f58f_story.html

Cooper

@Hope 104, 107
+1

@INTJ 116
Well said.

@Susan
I still think it is possible for a girl to give her number, or approach, without denying the male his pursuit. An approach simply gets the ball rolling, it doesn’t have to remove the entire possibility of rejection for the guy.

Excellent post, btw!!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I still think it is possible for a girl to give her number, or approach, without denying the male his pursuit. An approach simply gets the ball rolling, it doesn’t have to remove the entire possibility of rejection for the guy.

Well, I know some happy couples that started out this way. One woman I know who just got engaged basically stared at her husband in a bar for 10 minutes without blinking until he came over. He may have approached, but she was reeling him in.

The way it can work really well is if the guy is super attracted but intimidated. Then he’ll be overjoyed to get the number and they’re off to a great start. I think that women will have to judge this based on individual circumstances, and look for signs in the relationship that he is quite invested. In this SMP, I do think that more female initiative is a good thing.

JP

@Han Solo:

“On another subject, US birth rates have hit their lowest level since reliable records started in 1920:”

That’s because of the severe recession/economic strain since 2008.

It’s not that much of a surprise.

Demographics is another one of my hobbies.

This is pretty much a non-story at this point.

JP

@Cooper:

“Since injuring my right-index in August I haven’t been able to exercise nearly as effectively. Gripping with my right is still at 50%. (And my second surgery is schedule to be the new year – my tendon is stuck down, so I necessitate a Tenolysis.).”

Sorry to hear that.

Hand injuries like that are a real pain to deal with because they just get so annoying.

Richard Aubrey

IMO, you can start a relationship by meeting somebody in a joint activity such as a club, service project, etc. No young guy is a hundred percent at talking to the eyes.
Just a matter of taking one’s time and getting to know one another without pressure.
But it’s unlikely the woman in question doesn’t know what’s going on. A negative response is likely a matter of not wanting a relationship with the guy in question and pretending it was an underhanded tactic just adds some vinegar

HanSolo

@JP

Disagree. It is a big story. And it’s unlikely going back up.

HanSolo

Here’s a longer article on demographics and how the singles demographic is growing a lot and how the hispanic birthrate is dropping a lot faster than had been thought and Mexican illegal immigration is at a net zero right now so there will likely be less of the new-immigrant and higher-birthrates-of-immigrants effects to keep America at the replacement level of fertility.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/nation-singles_664275.html?page=3

Related to men being needed, it mentions how w/o marriage men are less likely to work.

Fagan and Potrykus were able to identify a clear statistical effect of marriage on men’s labor participation. What they found is that without the responsibility of families to provide for, unmarried American males have historically tended to drop out of the labor force, exacerbating recessionary tendencies in the economy.

HanSolo

And from that weekly standard article some trends in the developed world and that it is thought that it will happen in the US too:

In Europe, Asia, and most advanced countries, people are running away from marriage, children, and family life at an amazing rate. To pick just a smattering of data points from the highlight reel: Thirty percent of German women today say that they do not intend to have children. In Japan in 1960, 20 percent of women between 25 and 29 had never married. Today the number is more than 60 percent. Gavin Jones of the National University of Singapore estimates that “up to a quarter of all East Asian women will remain single by age 50, and up to a third will remain childless.”

The question, then, is whether America will continue following its glidepath to the destination the rest of the First World is already nearing. Most experts believe that it will. As the Austrian demographer Wolfgang Lutz puts it, once a society begins veering away from marriage and childbearing, it becomes a “self-reinforcing mechanism” in which the cult of the individual holds greater and greater allure.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

As the Austrian demographer Wolfgang Lutz puts it, once a society begins veering away from marriage and childbearing, it becomes a “self-reinforcing mechanism” in which the cult of the individual holds greater and greater allure.

This has to be the most individualistic time in history – does any other time come close?

Damien Vulaume

@hs: “Once a society begins veering away from marriage and childbearing, it becomes a “self-reinforcing mechanism” in which the cult of the individual holds greater and greater allure.”

Yes, more than hardcore feminism, the cult of the individual is the primary problem. Given the orientation taken by our neoliberal based societies (western) and its pop culture that invariably hammers the same message, I don’t see a reversal on the trend in the near future.

Susan!

Damien Vulaume December 1, 2012 at 3:29 pm

@hs: “Once a society begins veering away from marriage and childbearing, it becomes a “self-reinforcing mechanism” in which the cult of the individual holds greater and greater allure.”

Yes, more than hardcore feminism, the cult of the individual is the primary problem. Given the orientation taken by our neoliberal based societies (western) and its pop culture that invariably hammers the same message, I don’t see a reversal on the trend in the near future.
___

The Manosphere lays the blame for everything solely on Feminism. Ironically enough “rugged individualism” and “capitalism” are sacred cows to them.

Susan!

Hansolo,
Did you see Erika’s latest reply to you? Did you know she is “timeless”?

Susan!

“Usually this dilemma is addressed by encouraging women to make the first move or ask a guy out. In other words, we encourage the female to usurp the male role in hopes of nudging the process along. It seems only fair in the post-feminism era. This can certainly work, and in surveys a large majority of guys say they would love to be asked out by a woman. On the other hand, there are limitations to this approach, which runs counter to the natural order of things.”

* I don’t think it runs counter to the natural order of things at all. In the animal kingdom males display and females choose.

“A much better approach is for the woman to do her job, which is to escalate emotionally. ”

* There is no question of escalating emotionally unless someone initiates the first conversation and gets the ball rolling with the first date. First things first.

“Women are the ones who have the power to create that investment.

So the question is how do women create that investment? Here are the steps I recommended in that post:

1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him to avoid making him jealous.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
5. Share a lust for life.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.”

These are things that people do AFTER a good while of dating or some sort of “understanding” has been reached, a type of commitment or exclusivity.

100% of nothing, and certainly not sexual attraction, should be focused on someone you are just getting to know.

JP

@Susan:

“Why don’t the women serving stand up and say no way? Surely they know better than anyone that they can’t carry the same weight in adverse conditions? I would also think that to the extent the army can target anyone specific, they’ll go after females first.

Is there no one who will stand up to this PC nonsense?”

Not anyone who has the power to change anything.

It funny in a “people are really stupid” sort of way.

Lokland

@Susan

“She was always around. She didn’t make many demands, but she wanted to be a part of his life every waking moment, and when he pulled away for some autonomy, she followed close behind to reestablish intimacy as fast as possible. No one but she was surprised when he ended things soon after.”

OMFG this drives me crazy.
When we were in an LDR we tried to talk every morning and night (thank you 14 hour time difference). Most of the time that was good, after 6 months of it though I needed time off.
At first she didn’t get it but like FUCK I don’t want to see you all the damn time. Solution, don’t talk for two or three days (one time a week).
Miss her again and come back, much better.

@GudNuf, Susan

On woman in science.

I don’t think theres any partial barrier to women entering science.
Much like theres no barriers for straight guys entering fashion.

Purely on an interest level your going to have more men in STEM, analytical/methodical step by step analysis is a guy thing.

I don’t particularly care who has the good idea, the state of their genitals is irrelevant.

However its more likely to be a man, not so much because woman can’t have a great scientific idea but because they simply wouldn’t even think about it. (Much like I wouldn’t think to much about matching a purse and shoes. Or what the best pleats are on a dress.)

The only way for 50-50 split in science is if we force women who don’t want to be scientists to become scientists. That ought to end well.

Part of why feminism/manosphere are nuts. They work of the assumption that an even number of people want the same things.
A better system would be to allow people to pursue what they want (including hypergamy) but NOT having everyone else be responsible for the bad outcomes.

SayWhaat

The male intimacy cycle is like a rubber band. It involves getting close, pulling away, and then getting close again.

I’d heard of this before, but didn’t really understand it until recently. When Hurricane Sandy hit, I took shelter with my boyfriend for about a week while the power was out at my place. Being cooped up for days during a storm made him a bit irritable, and my being underfoot seemed to make him more cranky. I got out and went back home as soon as I could!

He seemed to spring back almost immediately. Spent every day with me before he had to leave for a 2-week long gig. When I visited him for a weekend, he was very happy to see me. I was just a bit flummoxed by the turnaround, lol. I think it’s important for girls to recognize when a guy is pulling away, and then take advantage of that to take time off *for themselves*. That way they both can realize a little more autonomy over themselves, and she can bask in his affection when he springs back.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@SayWhaat

I think it’s important for girls to recognize when a guy is pulling away, and then take advantage of that to take time off *for themselves*. That way they both can realize a little more autonomy over themselves, and she can bask in his affection when he springs back.

That’s a great suggestion. Women need to be able to enjoy that time off too – or they’re going to be unhappy every time a guy does it. My husband doesn’t do a lot of traveling, but when he does he’s usually gone for 4 nights or so. I hate the thought of that, but then I line up things that are harder to do when he’s home. I have my focus groups over, go out to dinner with friends, have girl time with my daughter, etc. It makes the time go much faster. I also stay up a lot later and let the dog sleep in the bed, my favorite.

Lokland

@Coops

Lol, it seemed funny last night.
I think ‘The’ Cooper would have been an improvement.
Damn the lack of an edit function!!!!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Damn the lack of an edit function!!!!

I sympathize, but no one has cracked the code on this for WordPress! Blogs on Blogger offer a preview function, but every plugin I’ve tried to use slows down the site noticeably. To be fair, the comment load here is heavy, and that’s a factor.

HanSolo

@Damien

In some ways it was very much a masculine urge to achieve independence from nature (to the extent of inventing technology to dominate the earth by growing crops, domesticating animals, and build tools and machines), to extricate humanity from the womb of mother nature. Richard Tarnas expresses this idea in his book Passion of the Western Mind, though I’m sure many others have too. This is seen especially in the mindset of modernism of thinking that the subjects, people, as objective observers can coldly analyze and manipulate the disanimated object, earth and nature, for their benefit.

The interesting thing is that in striving for equality, feminists wanted to be equal in masculine ways probably much more than they wanted to turn men into feminine women. So more of a shift in women to be masculine with a lesser shift in men to be feminine. A striving for greater independence from nature, especially from their reproductive “shackles” via birth control and abortion, and independence from men via technology that allowed them to contribute economically without needing physical strength.

In the current age, we realize that there are environmental repurcussions to our dominating the earth and we need to move back to being in sustainable harmony with the earth while maintaining our more advanced technological advantages. Also, the idea of man as completely rational subject, completely separated from inanimate nature, has been weakened as people realized you can never fully extricate the observer from the observed, and humanity from nature.

Where we head from here is the interesting question.

Damien Vulaume

@Susan:
“1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him to avoid making him jealous.
2. Be consistently curious and interested to learn more about him.
3. Ask for his advice, support or help.
4. Be generous and appreciative.
5. Share a lust for life.
6. Let him know how much you like him, and how sexually attracted you are to him.

Those look like excellent steps from my point of view. . But the reality is less rational than those proposed premises.
#1 comes naturally to a woman only if she’s truly emotionally involved.
#2- Or his fields of interests and his take on it.
#4-Yes, and it works both ways.
5- Oh yes, both ways. But this happens when love kicks in for both.
6- Well, that obviously comes spontaneously, or not. If it doesn’t….Au revoir.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

It’s true, those steps really apply when a woman wants to make a man “hers.” If she does, she needs to let him know. That feels very risky for women, because if the guy doesn’t feel the same way, they get the rejection. My argument has been that it’s only fair, since men must escalate sexually and also risk rejection. And of course, most of the time, men must risk rejection to even approach a woman.

I have advised women that if they find a guy attractive and want him to approach, the go-to move is a minimum of 3 seconds of eye contact with a smile. Look away, then repeat. If he doesn’t approach after two-four cycles of this, he is not attracted (or available).

JP

“Here’s a longer article on demographics and how the singles demographic is growing a lot and how the hispanic birthrate is dropping a lot faster than had been thought and Mexican illegal immigration is at a net zero right now so there will likely be less of the new-immigrant and higher-birthrates-of-immigrants effects to keep America at the replacement level of fertility.”

You do realize that there are a lot of legal immigrants every year, right?

Also, France seems to be doing just fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France

The countries that aren’t doing fine demographically are Italy, Germany, and Japan, to name three big ones.

Susan!

“Much like I wouldn’t think to much about matching a purse and shoes.”

How about matching a tie and shoes?

SayWhaat December 1, 2012 at 4:09 pm

The male intimacy cycle is like a rubber band. It involves getting close, pulling away, and then getting close again.

I’d heard of this before, but didn’t really understand it until recently. When Hurricane Sandy hit, I took shelter with my boyfriend for about a week while the power was out at my place. Being cooped up for days during a storm made him a bit irritable, and my being underfoot seemed to make him more cranky. I got out and went back home as soon as I could!

He seemed to spring back almost immediately. Spent every day with me before he had to leave for a 2-week long gig. When I visited him for a weekend, he was very happy to see me. I was just a bit flummoxed by the turnaround, lol. I think it’s important for girls to recognize when a guy is pulling away, and then take advantage of that to take time off *for themselves*. That way they both can realize a little more autonomy over themselves, and she can bask in his affection when he springs back.

—–

The only problem with this, and its a big one, is that one partner molds her availability and emotional needs around the other partner’s, exclusively on his terms.

HanSolo

@SusanPJ

Yes, I did see that. Her soul may be timeless but her body isn’t. But I wished her the best of luck.

Susan!

“Here’s a longer article on demographics and how the singles demographic is growing a lot and how the hispanic birthrate is dropping a lot faster than had been thought and Mexican illegal immigration is at a net zero right now so there will likely be less of the new-immigrant and higher-birthrates-of-immigrants effects to keep America at the replacement level of fertility.”

And this is a bad thing……………. how?

Why would anyone be worried about low birth rates? The planets got too many people now as it is.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Plain Jane, stop using my name, it’s confusing me in the replies.

JP

“In the current age, we realize that there are environmental repurcussions to our dominating the earth and we need to move back to being in sustainable harmony with the earth while maintaining our more advanced technological advantages.”

We aren’t going to maintain our more advanced technological advantages because they are dependent on certain conditions, one of which is really cheap, concentrated energy.

Are we going to get all our power from nuclear reactors safely? Can that even be done?

The U.S. doesn’t even seem to be able to sustain its infrastructure at the moment.

Damien Vulaume

#137 “Susan!”
“Ironically enough “rugged individualism” and “capitalism” are sacred cows to them.”

I don’t know anything about the manosphere but can only guess based on some of the comments here. You are absolutely right.

INTJ

@ JP

The countries that aren’t doing fine demographically are Italy, Germany, and Japan, to name three big ones.

Gee, wonder what they have in common. Perhaps it’s karma that’s causing the low birth rates.

Susan!

Susan: 1. Focus 100% of your sexual attraction on him to avoid making him jealous.

Damien: #1 comes naturally to a woman only if she’s truly emotionally involved.

>>>
Yes, I addressed that in my comment # 142. Its not wise to invest 100% focus on someone who is not 100% focused on you simultaneously.

Also wrt asking for his advice, support or help. There are many men who would not want to give any of that to a woman unless they are already at the exclusive relationship level. They feel burdened and bothered by it.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Are we going to get all our power from nuclear reactors safely? Can that even be done?

Now it’s mine turn to say: France is doing just fine.

Susan!

Hans,
“This is seen especially in the mindset of modernism of thinking that the subjects, people, as objective observers can coldly analyze and manipulate the disanimated object, earth and nature, for their benefit.”

Nature is not disanimate.

INTJ

@ JP

Are we going to get all our power from nuclear reactors safely? Can that even be done?

No we aren’t and yes it can.

http://x OffTheCuff

Esc, I can do 22 situps without a problem, but can’t do a single one as RA described without my feet anchored… I just roll back. Likewise, I can do a bunch of pull ups, but only a few with proper form (full extension, dead hang, palms forward, wide-grip).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Esc, I can do 22 situps without a problem, but can’t do a single one as RA described without my feet anchored… I just roll back.

One word: Pilates.

Lokland

@Olive

“Now it’s mine turn to say: France is doing just fine.”

+1

@JP

“The U.S. doesn’t even seem to be able to sustain its infrastructure at the moment.”

After the fall of the US (and Western civilization), I know its hard to comprehend but the rest of the world will shoulder on.

Loss of Western civ. will not send our species back to the dark ages. Even here it’ll just be shitty living.

Iggles

Re: OKCupid article

Holy heck! I feel like I lost several brain cells reading that fake profile and the ensuing pathetic responses…

Reading that makes me question having any faith in humanity!

Feelist

I tend to agree with the topic. There is one girl I am particularly attracted to because she’s from an under-developed Euro Country. When I first saw her I didn’t pay much attention to her. She’s cute and all, but my college has far moe attractive women. But she asked me a question, wasn’t familiar with English, and we had to speak in German(she’s not German).

For the next two weeks to come she relied on me to get her school situation worked out. And when I see her she brightens up and lets me open the door for her etc. Yeah, it makes me feel good about myself and I do see her as more attractive than what she really is.

My socio-economical power is higher than hers. That oddly makes me feel more masculine. Can’t really feel the same about the other girls. They’re from European and Asian Powerhouses. She’s going to return home for Christmas holidays. I think I’m gonna miss her more than I’ll miss the 10 perfect German girl I’ve been spending a lot of time with lately.

Susan!

“Loss of Western civ. will not send our species back to the dark ages. Even here it’ll just be shitty living.”

Doomsday.

The future will be better. We’ll be physically and mentally healthier.

doomwolf

@Lokland
“Part of why feminism/manosphere are nuts. They work of the assumption that an even number of people want the same things.
A better system would be to allow people to pursue what they want (including hypergamy) but NOT having everyone else be responsible for the bad outcomes.”

+1

Lokland

@PJ

I don’t think its gonna be some kinda catastrophic fall, just the loss of economic superiority resulting in relatively poor living conditions and life quality (which in comparison to cave men, will still be golden).

Susan!

Iggles,
“Holy heck! I feel like I lost several brain cells reading that fake profile and the ensuing pathetic responses…”

Link? I’m feeling particularly masochistic today.

“Reading that makes me question having any faith in humanity!”

I’ve been nurturing suicidal ideation ever since I saw this video;

http://jezebel.com/5964440/what-do-you-do-when-a-childs-flirting-goes-from-cute-to-full+on-sexual-harassment?post=54731503

^^^One of the many reasons I’m totally ok with humans not replacing their populations over the next several decades.

Damien Vulaume

@Jp.
Yes, from a demographic point of view, France is doing better than some other western European cultures or Japan (which doesn’t face the same level of immigration from other continents). That in turn however creates many other head scratching social problems. See the worrying level of the Ultra-right in the voting polls.
@Olive: France is a bit like a drug addict with the way it relies on its nuclear energy. Three mile island and Tchernobyl (and now Fukushima) were big enough eye openers for the population, who regularly protests against “more of the all nuclear” but apparently not for some of our leaders (Sarkozy was the latest best well known example ).

Lokland

@Damien

“France is a bit like a drug addict with the way it relies on its nuclear energy. Three mile island and Tchernobyl (and now Fukushima)”

Three incidents over a span of 70ish (not sure on the exact history) is hardly cause for concern.

Assuming we can just make sure that the tech. is not used by idiots and isn’t built in dangerous places theres no real need for concern.
Three mile and Fuk. were scary but so is Paranormal Activity. Maybe a tad more expensive.

Beyond that, Fuk. has spurred on new guidelines for reactors which are actually safer than the previous versions. (Which were already pretty damn safe.)

Iggles

@ SayWhaat:

He seemed to spring back almost immediately. Spent every day with me before he had to leave for a 2-week long gig. When I visited him for a weekend, he was very happy to see me. I was just a bit flummoxed by the turnaround, lol. I think it’s important for girls to recognize when a guy is pulling away, and then take advantage of that to take time off *for themselves*. That way they both can realize a little more autonomy over themselves, and she can bask in his affection when he springs back.

+1

I’ve noticed this dynamic with my boyfriend as well. When we spend *too* many days together (say a week or week and a half) continuously it throws us off.

This article shed some light on this and helped me not to take him need time apart personally:

http://www.thefemininewoman.com/2011/10/why-men-pull-away-and-how-to-deal-with-it/

HanSolo

@JP

Yes, I realize that there are legal immigrants, so you could try to have more young people immigrate legally. But these people are not going to have as high of fertility as previous immigrants did.

That is interesting that France has a slight uptick in fertility rates, starting in the mid 90’s, likely due to higher-fertility-rate immigrants. The US also had an uptick in the mid 80s that lasted until the great Recession, partly helped by the influx of higher-fertilility-rate immigrants. http://www.prb.org/images12/us-fertility-figure1.gif

It will be interesting to see if birth rates continue to fall in Asia and Africa as is expected. Already it has fallen to 2.27 in Latin America as of this article a year ago.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/fertility-rates-plunging-across-latin-america/2011/12/29/gIQAmRWQPP_graphic.html

HanSolo

@JP

We aren’t going to maintain our more advanced technological advantages because they are dependent on certain conditions, one of which is really cheap, concentrated energy.

Are we going to get all our power from nuclear reactors safely? Can that even be done?

I agree that cheap energy is required for modernity (and the economic equality for women that depends on machines/technology to remove the physical strength divide).

I am optimistic that we will continue to have relatively cheap energy. The shale oil and gas revolution have and will provide enough fuel until we can invent cheaper solar and storage and also build much more nuclear.

Thorium reactors are being slowly developed. There is 3x as much thorium as uranium and it doesn’t make much waste, is not really weaponizable, and is not subject too meltdowns:

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/all/

Overseas, the nuclear power establishment is getting the message. In France, which already generates more than 75 percent of its electricity from nuclear power, the Laboratoire de Physique Subatomique et de Cosmologie has been building models of variations of Weinberg’s design for molten salt reactors to see if they can be made to work efficiently. The real action, though, is in India and China, both of which need to satisfy an immense and growing demand for electricity. The world’s largest source of thorium, India, doesn’t have any commercial thorium reactors yet. But it has announced plans to increase its nuclear power capacity: Nuclear energy now accounts for 9 percent of India’s total energy; the government expects that by 2050 it will be 25 percent, with thorium generating a large part of that. China plans to build dozens of nuclear reactors in the coming decade, and it hosted a major thorium conference last October. The People’s Republic recently ordered mineral refiners to reserve the thorium they produce so it can be used to generate nuclear power.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Susan, I was thinking of your post on emotional escalation and how it somewhat contradicts this post, at least on the surface. Maybe you could link to that post at the end of this one so people don’t get the idea that you’re advocating total passivity.

It’s also worth noting that both the man and the woman should have the maturity and healthy mental outlook to sustain a healthy, respectful and good relationship. If the woman does too much for a man who is not ready, he’s going to be overwhelmed. Thus his desire for autonomy.

Also, in your story, moving in together after a week is a bit much! When I look back at the beginning with my husband, I was actually very reluctant to move in with him, and it took a lot of persuasion on his part. I am not advocating the “overly eager” tactic for the woman. She should negotiate her desires as well.

Joe

Sigh. I’m going to be verbally accosted for this, but I must caution everyone who thinks that there are too many people that they should reconsider.

Seriously.

First of all, you have no idea what the carrying capacity of the earth is. No one does. Check the numbers – most of the planet – BY FAR – is sparsely populated. If you live anywhere on the east coast of the the US or in most of the west coast, you should think that most of the inhabitable part of the world has a population density much more like Arizona or New Mexico, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It’s not like NYC, LA, or anywhere close to that.

Second, most of our economic structures have as an unspoken assumption the necessity of a stable or increasing population. Think Social Security. What you don’t want to know is that so does much of culture and civilization. On every scale at every time in history, a decreasing population is a sign of death and decay, not a sign of life and prosperity.

I can’t emphasize enough that the “Population Bomb” ideas of the ’60s were nothing more than Malthusian propaganda. It always was bogus and it always was propaganda at the service of the few who thought of themselves as the enlightened elite.

There are far bigger things to worry about than over population.

JP

“It will be interesting to see if birth rates continue to fall in Asia and Africa as is expected. Already it has fallen to 2.27 in Latin America as of this article a year ago.”

What about India?

“India is projected to overtake China as the world’s most populous nation by 2030. India’s population growth has raised concerns that it would lead to widespread unemployment and political instability.[57][58] Note that these projections make assumptions about future fertility and death rates which may not turn out to be correct in the event.
Source:[59]
2020: 1,326,093,000
2030: 1,460,743,000
2040: 1,571,715,000
2050: 1,656,554,000″

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India

JP

The entire population issue is tied into agriculture which it tied into cheap energy/pollution.

Damien Vulaume

@Susan:
“I view my marriage as egalitarian, but counter to the claims of Dalrockolytes, who claim that women always dominate in egalitarian marriages, the edge goes to my husband in ours. ”

If I follow Mr wv train of thoughts correctly, then you essentially agree with him.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

If I follow Mr wv train of thoughts correctly, then you essentially agree with him.

I don’t think we’re far apart, but his constant linking to Dalrock has me a bit worried…

HanSolo

@Susan!PJ

Perceived as inanimate.

JP

@Susan:

“This has to be the most individualistic time in history – does any other time come close?”

Individualism is one of the primary cultural products of Western civilization.

The point is that cultures/civilizations ossify, slowly decline, and are ultimately overrun by warbands/migrations.

You can use the population of Rome, the city, as a proxy for the rise and fall of Classical Civilization.

Note that the population peaks then falls during the imperial period.

350 BC 30,000.
270 BC 100,000.
100 BC >500,000.
44 BC 1,000,000.
100 1,650,000.
300 1,200,000.
400 1,100,000.
450 80,000.
500 50,000.
752 40,000.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@JP

Should we blame Ayn Rand?

Abbot

“When a man does something to make a woman feel special, he becomes more attracted to her.”

There has to be a starting feeling. That is, he needs to feel that she is special from the start or what is the point of using his efforts to build on that?

“When women “overgive” it compromises their position, and it prevents the excitement of anticipation and romance from building.”

When a woman “overgives” over and over to prior men that’s a near sure fire way for a man to torpedo his desire to make her feel “special.” What is there to salvage? Certainly, John Gray never mentioned that. Imagine if he did?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Abbot

There has to be a starting feeling. That is, he needs to feel that she is special from the start or what is the point of using his efforts to build on that?

Agreed, if he’s not attracted to begin with she’s just a PITA, lol.

When a woman “overgives” over and over to prior men that’s a near sure fire way for a man to torpedo his desire to make her feel “special.”

You have an amazing ability to turn every comment to the topic of female promiscuity!

JP

@Susan:

“Should we blame Ayn Rand?”

For being a third-rate novelist pretending to be a first-rate philosopher?

The most recent iteration of individualism (generally the stupid kind) is mostly a product of consumer capitalism (there’s no human problem that can’t be solved by buying lots of electronics and tanzanite jewelry from QVC) coupled with a massive financial bubble (a house is an asset, particularly when you only make $30,000 a year, but have a $700,000 liar loan).

Damien Vulaume

@Susan:
Forgive my ignorance, but who is Dalrock? Some kind of polished modern days male supremacist?

“I have advised women that if they find a guy attractive and want him to approach, the go-to move is a minimum of 3 seconds of eye contact with a smile. Look away, then repeat. If he doesn’t approach after two-four cycles of this, he is not attracted.”

You know it’s funny. I’ve talked to many women about that. And their answer varies as much as their personalities, but in essence most of them told me they were doing it that way. And that is what I more or less always experienced in public places with women who showed interest. Although 3 seconds already seems to be a long time, at least at the beginning. As for the smile……..Nobody can teach that. In the end, even with two complete strangers, it’s always about natural, sensuouslly instinctive reaction to one another without yet knowing each other. And of course, real women always know better than men on that one.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Dalrock? Some kind of polished modern days male supremacist?

More like a disgruntled, disheveled holdover from the old days.

You’re right, 3 seconds is a long time! But that’s why it’s effective – no confusion about intent with that long a gaze. I actually read somewhere that 3 seconds is the threshold for sexual attraction.

I think you make a good point about the natural chemistry that happens between strangers. It isn’t common, but when it happens across a room it’s powerful.

A Definite Beta Guy

Hhmmmmm. I’ve read Atlas Shrugged 3 times cover to cover, and saw both of the movies.

Maybe Ayn Rand isn’t the problem

Abbot

“You have an amazing ability to turn every comment to the topic of female promiscuity!”

Prior to 40 years ago, the dynamic between women and men as later described by Gray worked as he states. Where and how does the hook up culture fit in? The dynamic is contaminated. Its compromised. How can a man’s feeling’s in 2012 be like the much luckier man of say 1967?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Damien,
What Lokland said. Also, I’ve said this already, but I’ll say it again: I grew up within a 7 mile radius of Three Mile Island. I hadn’t been born when the scare happened, but my dad was living with my great grandparents, who literally lived in TMI’s backyard, and he’d decided to go for a run lol. The man is still living.

I’m too lazy to find the stats, but I once learned that far more people die in coal plant accidents than they do in nuclear accidents. Just a thought.

A Definite Beta Guy

Abbot’s railing about female promiscuity is great because all of these arguments can be so easily applied to promiscuity.

It’s an important part of arguing, IMO, that people automatically try to dismiss because “they aren’t the same.” Without bothering to say why they aren’t the same.

Related to this:

One of my friends had to take a sexual harassment course for his college. The college made damn sure that VERBAL and SPECIFIC consent must be required before EVERY sex act, or else the guy is a rapist.
And I mean the guy, because in every situation the aggressor was a guy.
With hilarious consequences.
In one example, Fred was pressuring Sue into sex. Sue didn’t want to have actual sex, so she just started blowing him instead. Fred then decided to take Sue and put her on the bed, take off her panties, and have sex with her. At no point did Sue say no, at all, or indicate in any other she didn’t want to have sex.

Fred absolutely is a rapist, because agreeing to one sex act does not mean agreeing to another sex act. Fred should have asked Sue if she wanted to have sex first, because just because she was giving him a blowjob doesn’t mean she wanted to have sex with him.

My thought is, just because Fred was asking Sue for sex, does not mean he consented to Sue giving him a blowjob. Agreeing to one sex act does not mean agreeing to another sex act, after all.

Damien Vulaume

@Lokland: “Assuming we can just make sure that the tech. is not used by idiots and isn’t built in dangerous places theres no real need for concern.”
Assuming, yes, but the reality is otherwise. TEPCO are no fools, but irresponsible people. The problem is not “the span of time”. When one accident happens, its side effects lasts many more years than that “span of time”. There have been many nuclear incidents in France kept under the rug, guess why? But anyway, let’s not start into an ecological debate. The focus here is on men/women approaches, differences, etc.

JP

@Olive:

“I grew up within a 7 mile radius of Three Mile Island. I hadn’t been born when the scare happened, but my dad was living with my great grandparents, who literally lived in TMI’s backyard, and he’d decided to go for a run lol. The man is still living.”

West Shore or East Shore?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

JP,
How do you mean?

Damien Vulaume

@Olive: “I’m too lazy to find the stats, but I once learned that far more people die in coal plant accidents than they do in nuclear accidents. Just a thought.”
Agreed, but you could also say that more people die from car crashes than from smoking. It goes round and round that way.
Anyway, a thought on men/women?

JP

@Olive:

“I grew up within a 7 mile radius of Three Mile Island.”

West Shore or East Shore (of the Susquehanna River).

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Damien,

Agreed, but you could also say that more people die from car crashes than from smoking.

Not a good comparison. We’re not discussing whether smoking is a suitable substitute for driving. This is a discussion about finding energy sources, and there are a lot of really great benefits to nuclear (uranium is plentiful–by the way, HanSolo, interesting stuff on thorium!–and nuclear plants don’t release greenhouse gases). Your argument is that nuclear is dangerous; I’m saying that, relatively speaking, it’s not as dangerous as it’s made out to be by the media (I once had to explain to some fairly ignorant environmentalists that the smoke stuff coming out of nuclear plants is, in fact, steam!).

Anyway, a thought on men/women?

? Something specific you’d like to discuss?

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

If France continues to avoid panic and use nuclear power on a large scale, they are going to have a real advantage over other European countries. Germany, in particular, is not going to find it very feasible to run an advanced industrial economy on wind and solar, nor are they going to be very happy being dependent on natural gas imports from Russia and other points East. I expect that they will be a major destination for U.S. exports of liquified natural gas; however, the liquification & transportation process adds **a lot** of cost to the U.S. price.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

JP,
Oh, sorry. East.

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

One more point on energy: if today’s social/political climate had existed when electricity was introduced, we probably never would have had widespread electrification.

Indeed, Thomas Edison used extremely sleazy tactics attempting to inspire public fear of alternating current to protect his direct-current investments, even going so far as to sponsor the electric chair as a replacement for hanging and suggesting that the process should be called “Westinghousing” in “honor” of his AC-based competitor, George Westinghouse.

If today’s fearful climate had existed then, he probably would have gotten away with it.

Damien Vulaume

@Olive:
“Something specific you’d like to discuss?”
Something related to the original post, and sticking with the general disscussion on the issue. Not more.

JP

I actually got to experience Three Mile Island, since I was alive and living in South Central PA at the time (West Shore). I think it was a little more than 10 miles away.

I wasn’t allowed to go play outside for a few days.

It wasn’t a particularly bad nuclear accident, all things considered. Mostly just scared a lot of people who thought they were all going to die.

BroHamlet

@Clarence

“Feminism has run its course…”

Yeah, why don’t you tell our politicians that as the feminists are more plugged into the political process than ever, esp. when it comes to laws involving marriage/divorce and family formation. I see someone sticking their head into the sand and at the same time throwing a few million men and women whose lives or families or both have been ruined under the bus…

Now, I thought I was very clear about what I said, which goes beyond the snippet you seem to be misinterpreting as a lack of awareness:

Feminism has run it’s course, and largely isn’t about equality, or even about the interests of the average woman anymore, and that much has been explored in depth on this blog if you read back in the archives.

If it wasn’t clear, the point is that feminism has ceased to be useful for wider society in many ways, and is now extremely counterproductive for both genders (yes, that’s a huge understatement, but do we really need to get into that?). One might even argue that what many feminists are pushing for in the political arenas isn’t feminism as it was originally intended at all, because it’s not about equality for women, it’s about privileges for women at the expense of everyone else. I didn’t see the need to get into detail about all of that because it’s been discussed by our host at really great length already.

Just1Z

@pj
teh manosphere isn’t so much about individualism, as saying that if the deal is crap walk away from it.

also, if a man isn’t working for his own interests (wife’n’kidz) then why should he work beyond what he needs? to pay tax to support single moms?

that is where the man-boys are coming from…why man up just to be taxed to pay for a society that has treated them as crap since starting kindergarten?

for every action there is a reaction. for every change in the incentives there is a change in the efforts made. misandry isn’t unfortunate, it’s going to be catastrophic, start looking after da menz, or tgey won’t be there to look after you…

happy days, we thrashed the kiwis at rugby and I saw it in the pub. in more ways than one, good night y’all

INTJ

@ ADBG

My thought is, just because Fred was asking Sue for sex, does not mean he consented to Sue giving him a blowjob. Agreeing to one sex act does not mean agreeing to another sex act, after all.

Yup. They raped each other.

Richard Aubrey

Susan
“Why don’t the women serving stand up and say no way? Surely they know better than anyone that they can’t carry the same weight in adverse conditions? I would also think that to the extent the army can target anyone specific, they’ll go after females first.

Is there no one who will stand up to this PC nonsense”

The powers that be have decreed. It’s a career-killer to mention difficulties such as ten percent of women aboard ship get pregnant and have to be pulled out, to be replaced by some guy jerked out of his other assignment and shoved in without having a chance to meld with the team. You can’t say the reason the platoon didn’t make its objective in a manuver is because the women couldn’t keep up.

You will recall that, after the Ft. Hood shooting, Gen. Casey said that he hoped this wouldn’t damage diversity “which is our strength”. Means if you see some guy with appalling professional performance and demonstrated Islamic nutcasery, the general doesn’t want to hear about it. Message received, general, sir.
There was a report that nine officers were going to be investigated–certain career killer and possible judicial action–for failing to stop Hasan’s greased slide through the Army to Ft. Hood. Those claiming to be connected say the reason they didn’t downcheck the guy on efficiency reports or put letters in his file or reprimand him or whatever their position would suggest say that the officers were convinced they’d be accused of Islamophobia. It’s one thing to show the moral courage to get something done, but in this case, it would mean they get accused and Hasan is forever Tefloned because of having been persecuted due to his religion. IOW, sacrifice for nothing.

HanSolo

@JP

Fertility rate in India is now 2.6/woman, having dropped from nearly 6 in 1960

http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:IND&dl=en&hl=en&q=india+fertility+rate

It has reached 2.1/woman in 14/35 states.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-07-12/india/29764186_1_total-fertility-rate-population-day-population-conference

They have the goal of 2.1 nationwide by 2017 (though it may take longer)

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-08-20/india/33286864_1_imr-infant-mortality-tfr

Damien Vulaume

“Why don’t the women serving stand up and say no way? Surely they know better than anyone that they can’t carry the same weight in adverse conditions? I would also think that to the extent the army can target anyone specific, they’ll go after females first.”

Why would any woman want to serve in the army in the first place? I don’t think this is “natural”. In my view, those who serve in there are quite confused or have a personally troubled psychological agenda. My own experience of the army was the most extreme real life example of what machism and or male bonding looks like at its worst when all put together: Schoolboys doing fart contests and calling women “pussies and whores”. Good luck for her if that’s the environement she wants to work in…

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

JP,
Interesting! My great-grandparents lived on a farm in Dauphin County, probably less than half a mile away from TMI. I remember going to their house as a little kid and marveling at those lovely towers.

Damien,

Something related to the original post, and sticking with the general disscussion on the issue. Not more.

*Shrugs* okay. I haven’t felt a burning desire to comment on the post but if I do I’ll let ya know.

Richard Aubrey

I recall a Senate hearing about TMI. Turns out that, in the following forty years, in the fallout pattern, 40,000 cancers were expected. Adding in the TMI radiation, there was a fifty percent chance of one more.
But there was plenty of room for panic and posturing.

Hari Christmas

Joe, re: population

Its not so much population that is the sole problem, but the ever increasing consumption needs of the population. Finite resources!

Just1z,
“also, if a man isn’t working for his own interests (wife’n’kidz) then why should he work beyond what he needs? to pay tax to support single moms?
…that is where the man-boys are coming from…why man up just to be taxed to pay for a society that has treated them as crap since starting kindergarten?”

We ALL pay taxes, unless we are part of the elite 1%.

“a society that has treated them as crap since starting kindergarten”

Bullshit. They don’t know how good they got it here. Spoiled brats.

[Susan, I changed my moniker for you]

Hari Christmas

Mr. Wavevector,
“The essential point that is missing is that men want something in return for all this that they give, and that thing is authority. They want a woman who will voluntarily grant him some authority over her in the relationship and accept him as her leader.”

It would be more accurate to say that this is what YOU want out of a woman in a relationship, not all men or men in general.

Susan Walsh December 1, 2012 at 5:18 pm

@SayWhaat

I think it’s important for girls to recognize when a guy is pulling away, and then take advantage of that to take time off *for themselves*. That way they both can realize a little more autonomy over themselves, and she can bask in his affection when he springs back.

That’s a great suggestion. Women need to be able to enjoy that time off too – or they’re going to be unhappy every time a guy does it.

—–

One has to be careful though that the availability isn’t exclusively on his terms just when its convenient for him and the relationship becomes all about him and his mood swings.

Damien Vulaume

@Susan: “A disgruntled, disheveled holdover from the old days.”
Ha ha, Looks like it’s an international phenomenom then…

“I actually read somewhere that 3 seconds is the threshold for sexual attraction.”

Well I don’t know about numbers. All I know is that the “quality” and the “intensity” of the sparkling light that shines in a woman’s eye in a public place is all that matters. She can do it in the glimpse of an eye, pretending not to be looking at all or gazing for 5 seconds. A woman is always magical when her intent is coloured with natural infatuation. We all should instinctively sense this (men women).

Hari Christmas

Damien,
“Well I don’t know about numbers. All I know is that the “quality” and the “intensity” of the sparkling light that shines in a woman’s eye in a public place is all that matters. She can do it in the glimpse of an eye, pretending not to be looking at all or gazing for 5 seconds. A woman is always magical when her intent is coloured with natural infatuation. We all should instinctively sense this (men women).”

An ATTRACTIVE woman is always magical……

We all know that men don’t find women they are not attracted to as “magical” no matter how intentful her natural infatuation.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Google Translate.

My religion forbids me from googling :p

Damien Vulaume

@PJ
“An ATTRACTIVE woman is always magical……”
Absolutely not. It’s all about charm. Beauty doesn’t necessarily comes along with charm. Period.

Lokland

@PJ

“An ATTRACTIVE woman is always magical……”

I know a 60 year old woman. Her presence is enchanting.
Would not bang.

Femininity makes any woman’s presence far more enjoyable. Even if they’re not on the menu.

Ie. Theres more to being magical than tits. Thats kinda the difference actually. a hot girl is tits without magic, a magical girl is feminine. A girl who strikes me as GF potential has both (and I think upwards of 80% of women are hot).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I know a 60 year old woman. Her presence is enchanting.
Would not bang.

Haha, that’s a relief. One of the things I enjoy a lot about being in my 50s is that I am now free to be as outgoing and friendly as I please with men of all ages without worrying about sexual undercurrents.

Hari Christmas

Damien Vulaume December 1, 2012 at 9:52 pm

@PJ
“An ATTRACTIVE woman is always magical……”
Absolutely not. It’s all about charm. Beauty doesn’t necessarily comes along with charm. Period.
———————

Damien, bless your sweet little heart. However that flies in the face of EVERYTHING men on this blog and others have tried to drill into our heads for, like, ever.

Case in point…..

“I know a 60 year old woman. Her presence is enchanting.
Would not bang. ”

Exactly.

Now let’s get back to the regularly scheduled program of you guys telling us how important youth and physical fitness are.

J

@Susan

Post #169 is terrific!

http://x OffTheCuff

Sue: “One word: Pilates.”

Forget that, all I need is youtube videos on form. I thought my core was good, as I can do a 3 minute plank, but this is news to me. I didn’t even know they were possible! Well, I have a new project.

Hari Christmas

Regarding comment #169

“2. I have described that I believe this is a natural outgrowth of our relationship and choices over the years, including his being the sole breadwinner. If I earned half the household income, I imagine that I would not just sit back and let him rule, even about financial decisions.”

Susan, whether s/he earns half, whole, or not a single cent, a spouse, either spouse, should not let the other “rule” in any area – particularly not the financial one when not only BOTH spouses are dependent on it, but their children as well.

A partnership means just that – a partnership.

“If I led you to imagine that I was a female of the Mrs. Dalrock variety, I am eager to disabuse you of that notion immediately. I do not accept that a woman should “know her place.” ”

Mr. Wavevector thinks this is a “dominionist” type conservative Christian blog?! Entitled “Hooking Up Smart” – really?!?! LOL!

“Re John Gray’s analysis of the differences between the sexes, I don’t think he is saying that men live to serve women or be subordinate to them in any way.”

Service does not mean subordination. Of course partners are supposed to serve each other.

There is one very happily married man with several children on youtube who gives out marriage and relationship advice and he says the purpose of “manhood” is in fact to serve “womanhood” because women bring forth humans and its mens’ duty to serve women in that function.

I’m sure the Manosphere would call this (very handsome in fact) man a pussy whipped beta who is setting himself up for cuckholdry but he claims he and his wife have never had an argument in all of their 11 years of marriage.

Damien Vulaume

@PJ:
“Damien, bless your sweet little heart. However that flies in the face of EVERYTHING men on this blog and others have tried to drill into our heads for, like, ever.”
And bless your “sweet little heart” as well.
Although I don’t think mine is. I’m not in the naive sphere of love anymore, but into reality.
Forget about the “men on this blog and others have tried to drill into our heads..”. Those same guys you’re talking about are reasoning like you…
Why don’t you try another culture, as long as you don’t carry your own problems with yourself along the way?… I’m saying this gently.

Joe

@Hari

Joe, re: population

Its not so much population that is the sole problem, but the ever increasing consumption needs of the population. Finite resources!

Yes, but nothing on this planet is so finite that we’re in danger of running out.

Nothing. Paul Erlich’s bet was no gamble for Julian Simon for one reason – Erlich never misunderstood that the amount of any resource is independent of availability. He did not account for the fact that availability of resources always grows, because of (ta – da!) people. We will leave this planet long before we run out of whatever it is you think you need.

However, the only truly limited resource is human brains. We need more, not less. In a civilized universe, attempts to decrease the population would be considered a crime against humanity.

AND (to bring this back to the topic at hand) we would be very alarmed at the idea that men and women are getting married later and having children later still, if only because of the associated lower fertility rates. That’s already wreaking havoc in Europe and Japan.

I am NOT saying every teenage girl should go out there and have a kid ASAP. No one is. We don’t encourage having children too early primarily because it’s not good for the children and the family unit. Society considers the needs of the mother, but only secondarily.

As a society we should still encourage having children and not encourage putting family creation off indefinitely.

mr. wavevector

@Damien 122

I think all this misleading gender equality talk is also too often equated to Mutual respect, which is a different thing (and of course step Number 1 in a relationship).

I too believe that mutual respect and an equal commitment to the relationship is the type of equality required in a relationship. Everything else is negotiable.

Hari Christmas

” I’m not in the naive sphere of love anymore, but into reality.”

The reality is that if a man is not attracted to a woman, her “intent coloured with natural infatuation” will not inspire him to pursue her.

See Lokland’s comment at 224 regarding the “charming and feminine” 60 year old woman.

Damien Vulaume

@Mr wv:
“I too believe that mutual respect and an equal commitment to the relationship is the type of equality required in a relationship. Everything else is negotiable.”

I don’t know if ‘negotiable” is the right word, but I know what you mean.

Damien Vulaume

#234. PJ or whatever you want to be called: “The reality is that if a man is not attracted to a woman, her “intent coloured with natural infatuation” will not inspire him to pursue her.”
And the same the other way around. It’s in the end a chess game that never cheats…

Hari Christmas

“The reality is that if a man is not attracted to a woman, her “intent coloured with natural infatuation” will not inspire him to pursue her.”

Damien: ” And the same the other way around. ”

—

Of course.
I’m not the one arguing that an “intent coloured with natural infatuation” would make me feel any kind of way about a man that I’m not physically attracted to first.

mr. wavevector

@ Susan #169

I reject any notion that my husband has God-given or other formal authority over me, or that I am required to accept him as my leader.

Of course. That is why I emphasized that any authority that a woman grants her husband is voluntary. It should not be coerced by social mores nor religious edict. It is not an entitlement that a man can demand. It is something that a woman can offer a man, if she chooses, because she loves him and trusts him. Whether you feel that way towards your husband is between you and him.

I have described that I believe this is a natural outgrowth of our relationship and choices over the years, including his being the sole breadwinner. If I earned half the household income, I imagine that I would not just sit back and let him rule, even about financial decisions.

I think the important factor is this: do you want to feel that he takes care of you? If you don’t, then there is no reason for you to grant him leadership. But if you do want to feel taken care of, then granting him leadership is a good way to secure that.

There is a fundamental aspect of social interactions in many social animals that couples status with care. Those who wish for care from others grant them status. Those who are granted status assume the responsibility for care. If you are strong and independent and don’t need a man, then you have no need to grant him a leadership status. But if you want the man to care for you and provide for you, then granting him leadership status is a good way to secure the investment that you desire.

I do not believe that our dynamic is the only one that happy couples have

And you will notice my comment to the same effect – that many couples pursue an egalitarian relationship, some of them with success.

I consider myself a strong and independent person, and therefore that is reflected in my marriage as well.

A strong and independent person who is entirely financially dependent on her spouse? What type of hubris is that? You would be better off acknowledging that you are indeed dependent on your husband. As he is on you for other reasons, no doubt. The strength of a couple is in its mutual interdependence, not in the independence of its individual members. As it is, you belittle his contribution to the relationship, while claiming to be that which you are not.

As for Dalrock, I was linking to him as an example of how your post may be interpreted, not as a model of how gender relations should be construed .

The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment.

So the way a woman acknowledges a man’s superior position is by things that benefit her personally, rather than anything that may benefit him? That she will do him the favor of letting him do her a favor? Are women really that exploitative?

Susan, I have no idea from this dialog what benefits your husband receives from supporting you, nor do I have any idea what benefit any man would receive in a committed relationship. Please elaborate.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mr. Wavevector

There’s a lot to unpack here – I hope I can shed some light on where I’m coming from re a husband’s authority over his wife.

First, as you know, hypergamy is rooted in a woman’s desire to secure the best possible package of resources for her future offspring. Material resources, but also a man’s network of connections and influence as a result of his being a leader among men. What he gets in exchange for that is a hotter wife. (David Buss) Many high status men voluntarily marry women who are anything but deferential or willing to submit to authority. A man may want that dynamic and seek it in a partner, but that is not what he gets as a result of status, per se. She gets good stuff for her children, e.g. leadership genes, material wealth, connections, and he gets good stuff for his children, e.g. youth, beauty, high fertility.

Second, in terms of what my husband gets from commitment to me, I would say Gray explained it well: trust, acceptance, appreciation, admiration, approval, encouragement. I provide all of these on a daily basis. A natural outgrowth of having that kind of respect for my husband means that I will naturally defer to his judgment on many things. He has veto power on just about any issue. However, it’s only fair to say that with the exception of our finances, where I defer to him entirely, I have veto power as well.

Together we made the decision that I would stay at home when my second child was born. This was a suggestion initiated by my husband, but one that I welcomed with relief. My job, which involved frequent air travel and long hours, had created great stress for our family after our son was born, even though I had cut back to three days per week. I recall worrying that living on one income would produce a great deal of stress for him, and said that I didn’t think it was fair – what would he get out of it? His reply was “the best care imaginable for my children.” Throughout all these years, he has remained firm that this deal was fair and beneficial to all parties, and is convinced that our children are the people they are in large part because they had the experience of my being home.

Third, I want to clarify that in describing myself as “strong and independent” I was not referring to being financially independent, obviously. Rather, I mean that I am capable of thinking and acting for myself. In fact, one of the reasons my marriage has worked so well is that in exchange for the luxury and privilege of being at home, I have worked hard to make my husband’s home experience as comfortable and pleasurable as possible. Every conceivable physical need of his is attended to with enthusiasm and without complaint . Our house is comfortable, clean, and well maintained. His clothes are cleaned and pressed at all times. I cook very high quality meals six nights a week. I maintain our cars and negotiate and arrange for all the services we need, from media and entertainment to vacation planning to gift giving and remembrances, for both his family and mine. I maintain the garden with only occasional help from my husband in lifting heavy things. The bottom line: he works his job and brings home the paycheck. He handles our finances. Literally every other thing is done for him. He has no errands to run on weekends.

He would vehemently deny that he is being exploited in any way, and would say instead that he marvels at the benefits I provide in our marriage on a daily basis. I’m sorry to have tooted my own horn here, but I hope that I have provided one clear illustration of how an egalitarian marriage can work and thrive, with both parties deriving benefits and feeling very fortunate.

Hari Christmas

Susan: The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment.

Mr. Wavevector: So the way a woman acknowledges a man’s superior position

Me: I believe what Susan meant by “up” is that the woman considers him the best of all her options, not that she considers him “superior” to her.

Mr. Wavevector: …. is by things that benefit her personally, rather than anything that may benefit him?

Me: He obviously sees a benefit in it too or he wouldn’t be pursuing her or offering up his commitment, would he?

Mr. Wavevector: Are women really that exploitative?

Me: Possibly. But in this context there is no exploitation. Its 2 individuals entering into a mutually agreed upon committed relationship.

Mr. Wavevector: Susan, I have no idea from this dialog what benefits your husband receives from supporting you, nor do I have any idea what benefit any man would receive in a committed relationship. Please elaborate.

Me: The benefits that humans receive by entering into voluntary, mutually agreed upon committed relationships with other humans are varied. Some of them are;

1. Companionship
2. Affection
3. Intimacy
4. Sexual activity and satisfaction
5. Hearth
6. Home
7. Children and family (if they want that)
8. The sharing of financial burdens
9. The sharing of tough times in life like the death of a parent
10. The sharing of life’s joys and someone to create those joys with
11. Someone to “have your back”

mr. wavevector

Me: I believe what Susan meant by “up” is that the woman considers him the best of all her options, not that she considers him “superior” to her.

No, the general understanding of hypergamy is that the woman marries a man of superior social status – superior to her own status, specifically.

He obviously sees a benefit in it too or he wouldn’t be pursuing her or offering up his commitment, would he?

There are indeed foolish men who pursue relationships with women without clear benefit to themselves. But any man who wishes to find a good mate should choose one who is willing to make the benefits to him clear, rather one that indulges in the solipsistic female self-interest that Susan describes.

The benefits of a committed relationship that you describe are ultimately dependent on having a wife that will have the man’s interest in mind, rather than defending her status as a “strong and independent woman”. It is this lack of awareness of the man’s interest that I am criticizing in Susan’s response.

Hari Christmas

“rather one that indulges in the solipsistic female self-interest that Susan describes”

You’re new here so you missed the comments some weeks back where I laid down the gauntlet on the Manosphere’s incorrect use of the word “solipsistic”.

“No, the general understanding of hypergamy is that the woman marries a man of superior social status – superior to her own status, specifically.”

Susan didn’t marry a man of higher social status than herself.

Sai

@Just1Z
Good article…
“rather than expecting women to adjust themselves to the environment.”
I’d like to see this. If you’re coming to somebody else’s place, you should respect how they do things.

“If a woman truly loves you, she will fight to her last breath with utmost courage, for you.”
http://youtu.be/K4ftQfqqt7k

@INTJ
“Dude that is freaking pathetic. But then again most women can’t even do a pull-up…”
Guilty as charged.

@Richard Aubrey
I can’t cheer women in combat any more. (Disclaimer: That doesn’t mean I want them dead!)

@mr. wavevector
This post made perfect sense, as did the later ones. I’m saving it!

@Damien Vulaume
“See the worrying level of the Ultra-right in the voting polls.”
I’m going to have to check this out further. I knew about the headscarf debate but I got lazy.
“Why would any woman want to serve in the army in the first place? I don’t think this is “natural”. In my view, those who serve in there are quite confused or have a personally troubled psychological agenda.”
When I was in middle school I wanted to be a drill sergeant so I could yell at people. But my mother told me I’d have to get up very early and I gave up. XD

I have a slightly OT question about men and women relating: I was reading Robert Greene’s “Art of Seduction” (I was curious!) and found a section on The Dandy… Since a first-world problem is feminized men and women acting too much like men, would this tactic be very effective nowadays?
All right, two OT questions. Does the mail Napoleon sent Josephine count as supplication? Because… do want. *flee*

Damien Vulaume

@Sai:
“When I was in middle school I wanted to be a drill sergeant so I could yell at people.”

Sounds like you got off to a good start in being an attractive woman…

Just1Z

@Sai
I just wanted to be a (mostly) benign global ruler. the shit that I could sort out… *sigh*

you could be a senior henchperson if you want?

as everyone must clearly be happy under my glorious, patriarchal rule, you could be in charge of beating the unsmiling ones till they showed how happy they were…

usual benefits package. apartments in moonbase and volcano HQ. as senior management you would not need to wear an opaque visor

whaddayereckon?

Just1Z

hmmm
best make the visors one way transparent rather than flat out opaque. else the accident rate would be through the roof along with the resultant medical costs. this global domination stuff is trickier than one might suppose.

Iggles

@ PJ:

“I know a 60 year old woman. Her presence is enchanting.Would not bang. ”

Exactly.

Now let’s get back to the regularly scheduled program of you guys telling us how important youth and physical fitness are.

I gotta say, I’m with Plain Jane on this one. On the whole men seem to project positive qualities onto women they find attractive – whether there’s any basis for it in reality or not!

Case in point, the nerd in high school who’s ~~infatuated~~ in love with the most popular girl in school. She can be super bitchy and he won’t see it. Instead he’ll be fixated on how he would treat her better than her jerk, varsity boyfriend. (Of course not seeing that she’s turned on by the jock boyfriend’s dominance..) He will ignore his nerdy female friend who thinks he’s amazing because he views his SMV counterpart as “homely”.

In college and elsewhere I’ve seen a lot of good-hearted dudes chasing, dating, and marrying bitchy women. This is not just high school phenomenon!

mr. wavevector

You’re new here so you missed the comments some weeks back where I laid down the gauntlet on the Manosphere’s incorrect use of the word “solipsistic”.

I am utterly indifferent to what you consider “solipsistic” to mean. I am using it in the sense of “The theory or view that the self is the only reality.” Specifically, Susan’s response reveals a view that a woman’s emotional reality is the only reality. This is reflected in this quote:

The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment.

Here we see the status of the man being defined exclusively by the emotional state of the woman, rather than any characteristic of his or any thing she might do for him. It is this self centered worldview that I correctly describe as solipsistic.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment.

Here we see the status of the man being defined exclusively by the emotional state of the woman, rather than any characteristic of his or any thing she might do for him. It is this self centered worldview that I correctly describe as solipsistic.

My statement refers to nothing more than the nature of the mating transaction. We figure out our SMV via trial and error. This is especially true for men, whose SMV is dependent on more than just looks. A man whose status gives him an SMV bump will figure out how much his status is worth according to which women are receptive to his attention. Ron Perelman’s status was obviously worth a great deal, as he got a sexy, albeit aging moviestar to marry him. Based on his looks alone, which I consider well below average, his mate should also be quite unattractive.

The sexual economics of this is simple: His status for her looks. It has nothing to do with the emotional state of the woman.

Bully

@Damien

Totally agreed. In my (way blue pill, this-is-what-a-feminist looks like) earlier years, I dated unattractive, ‘nice’ girls. They had charm, but no beauty. I was utterly miserable despite their charm ,and I never really knew why at the time.

Then I swallowed the red pill, picked up Game, started dating much more attractive women without any sort of feminine ‘je ne sais quoi’. And I didn’t really care for that much either, though at least I was then educated enough to know why not.

I’m only truly happy when dating a woman that has both at this point. And I know every man has to make concessions and all that, and I do when appropriate, but if I’m with a woman and she really is not making any attempt at all in one of the two spheres I just mentioned, I really don’t bother continuing with her, no matter how good she is in the other.

Iggles

Crap. I gotta remember not to PJ’s full name in a comment. Now my last one is in moderation…

@ Joe:

AND (to bring this back to the topic at hand) we would be very alarmed at the idea that men and women are getting married later and having children later still, if only because of the associated lower fertility rates. That’s already wreaking havoc in Europe and Japan.

I didn’t want to throw my hat into this discussion earlier, but I second this. It’s very bad for the U.S. to have falling birth rates because of the trends seen in those countries!

Depopulation – especially lopsided depopulation – comes with a whole host of associated problems!

mr. wavevector

Susan didn’t marry a man of higher social status than herself.

Then she is not hypergamous in her actions. Few women in the UMC are, as there are very few men of higher status available. Most UMC women have to settle for a peer at best, or remain single.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Most UMC women have to settle for a peer at best, or remain single.

I’ve wondered before whether there isn’t some law of diminishing returns for hypergamy. Certainly I and other women at Wharton who married men from the class felt that we had hit the jackpot – there wasn’t a sense that our dreamboats were out there somewhere with even higher status. My husband was 28 when we got together – and his youth and potential were a far more attractive package than a potentially wealthier but older man.

If hypergamy is about securing resources for offspring, surely there is a point at which a woman feels that the critical level of status has been reached. In addition, if she is a potentially high earner herself, she can afford to go younger and hotter (similar to a man) in exchange for a bit of status.

Most successful marriages in the U.S. today are assortative, between parties of similar education and status.

Bully

I suppose why that’s been single for some time; I’m constantly striving to improve myself in a wide range of arenas – Game, social circle, career, physicality, and finances – and too many women I meet in my age group are coasting by on merely being women and don’t really apply that same all-out self-improvement assault in their own lives. At this point I’m outright relieved when I meet a decently attractive mid to late 20s woman that has at least moved out from their parents’ home (Chicago), and I get the feeling that said woman would not give me the time of day if /I/ was still living at home.

Feelist

No, the general understanding of hypergamy is that the woman marries a man of superior social status – superior to her own status, specifically.”

The general understanding of hypergamy in the mansphere(and aren’t we part of it?) is that hypergamy is the pursuit by women for better men than the men they have around them: taller guys, fitter guys, richer guys, more good-looking guys etc.

mr. wavevector

The general understanding of hypergamy in the mansphere(and aren’t we part of it?) is that hypergamy is the pursuit by women for better men than the men they have around them: taller guys, fitter guys, richer guys, more good-looking guys etc.

If that’s your definition, it’s fairly meaningless. It just means that a woman wants the best partner she can get. Men want that too.

The “hyper” in hypergamy means “over”; it is implied that the reference for “over” is the woman’s own status. Wikipedia defines it as such:

Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as “marrying up”) is the act or practice of seeking a spouse of higher looks, socioeconomic, caste or status than oneself.[1]

All the sociological papers I’ve read use it in this manner. The tendency of women to choose mates of higher rank than themselves is the driving force for the social ramifications. If all women insist on marrying up, men at the bottom and women at the top have difficulty finding mates.

VD

Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed). I wonder if this is why so many men are trying to keep women at home and married with kids by 25. I wonder if this is simply what the backlash against feminism is all about.

No. No more than women are actually threatened by men who are stylish, pretty, look fabulous in skirts, and have zero sexual interest in women. You’re making the mistake of thinking that a man correctly realizing that what he brings to the table is not wanted, desired, or needed is somehow tantamount to being threatened. Think about it. What is the threat? What is the danger this woman poses to him? And if there is no danger, then what would he feel threatened about?

The backlash against feminism is because more and more men are realizing that feminism is the primary means of demolishing Western civilization. The West is literally dying, economically and demographically, and feminism is one of the primary reasons. Those who value the West want women home and married by 25 because we would like our children, and our children’s children, to grow up in a functioning and stable civilization, not a decadent one collapsing into pagan barbarism.

Now, many people firmly believe that Western civilization and its fruits will survive without its traditional religious and societal foundations. Those people are very, very wrong and it is becoming increasingly obvious that is the case.

VD

You’re new here so you missed the comments some weeks back where I laid down the gauntlet on the Manosphere’s incorrect use of the word “solipsistic”.

And he is quite properly ignoring you. As is pretty much everyone else. It is a nicely descriptive term describing an observed pattern of behavior. As Mr. Wavevector correctly pointed out, you don’t even understand what hypergamy is, or its etymological roots.

Just1Z

@Sai
“If a woman truly loves you, she will fight to her last breath with utmost courage, for you.”

Could come in handy in the coming, any-day-now, zombie apocalypse.

Won a fencing competition at Uni and it was only the second time that I ever did it(!)…they were somewhat disgruntled (true story). I gave up when I realised that I could beat them with their 2-3 years of training just because I was fast and coordinated – so, what’s the point? Luckily, I found a more fun alternative

Feelist

”If that’s your definition, it’s fairly meaningless. It just means that a woman wants the best partner she can get. Men want that too. ”

A woman’s beauty and number of sexual partners is interconnected with her social status. Her academical degree, her social background don’t mean anything to most men. I don’t look at women when I’m in college and think, ”Damn, I gotta get me some of that – I heard her master thesis on Tolkien was the hot stuff!”

I look at women, see if they fulfill my base requirement in looks and from there I figure if I’m sexually attracted to her, or if there’s more to it. Since I find most young women to be attractive(for they have the right weight for their height, are pleasant to look at etc) I don’t neccessarily chase after the perfect 10. Matter of fact I’m more attracted to this 5.5 than I am to the perfect german natural blonde I’ve been hanging out with.

Truth be told, I was hanging around her to figure out if my attraction to her was hormonal only. And it was. I spent two hours with her and I realized I only listen to what she says because of her looks. Would I want to deal with this on a daily basis(marriage)?

Not in this lifetime.

So you see, when the average woman chases after the tall/fit/good-looking/rich/sparkling colgate teeth she’s practicing hypergamy, because she’s going for men who are of higher social status than her own, and that is the definition of hypergamy amongst the vast majority of the people who belong to the mansphere.

Damien Vulaume

@VD:
“the early 20th century anti-suffragettes were correct and feminism is the primary means of demolishing Western civilization. The West is literally dying, economically and demographically, and feminism is one of the primary reasons.”
Are you serious here, or is this some kind of subtle humour that totally escapes me?
If I follow your reasoning, then you should immediately remove women the right to vote. You could also blame feminism for the general decline of the literacy rate, or the fact that over 65% of the US population is overweight, among others.
Next step, how about claiming that Sandy was launched by a vast feminist conspiracy?

Just1Z

@DV
don’t see how you get to Sandy…can you explain that one?

as for the rest, I’ve got me wine and cheese, take it away…

Damien Vulaume

@justiz
That was poor sarcasm on my part. An attempt to show that you could blame feminism for just about anything.

A Definite Beta Guy

Oh, DV, how funny.

Why is patriarchy the dominant social arrangement? It’s because it’s the OPPOSITE of oppressive to women: it’s oppressive to MEN.

Patriarchy is the ONLY social arrangement that is capable of generating massive male investment from 90% of men. That may not be thought of as quite so huge a deal, because so much of our economy is now Apple products and advertising and healthcare. It’s a huge deal when you have Hard Work to do, like building roads, or repairing oil wells, or colonizing North America, or beating the Germans.

That Hard Work is the foundation of civilizations. The Soft Work that women do is also the foundation of civilizations, when the Soft Work is “raising children.” It is not useful in an economic context, except when the Hard Work of building civilization is already done. Or society is so damn decayed that families no longer raise their own children.

What has now happened is the dissolution of the social mores and foundations that have supported patriarchal societies. You will find that most guys will say that this is a good thing: we think women should vote, have a say in how many children they should have, and should not be raped or viewed as property.

We’ve gone with that, but our society has also removed a lot of the incentive for male investment. And males are responding like males should…not investing. Not all guys, of course, but more and more are dropping out, and that’s how avalanches start.

Besides, you don’t need all guys to drop out to start causing huge, huge problems. Society can handle a small part of “ruin” in it. The parts that don’t work, so to speak. Some homeless we give scraps too, some kids that don’t realize their full potential, some places where we can’t stop crime no matter how many police we put there.

We absolutely are not going to survive with 60% of families being broken. Not as a superpower anyways, but as a Third World hellhole with pockets of First World awesomeness, with all the social and political arrangements that implies.

That’s not a good future.

Damien Vulaume

@VD
I also have a sugestion for you:
You could also settle down in some remote village in Corsica or Sicily, and date a young woman there…You’d love her upbringing.
Although, make sure you wear a bulletproof jacket when you meet her brothers.

Just1Z

@DV
sorry, I was kidding too. I got your intent.

I’m in favour of restricting the right to vote, but it wouldn’t simply be based on innie vs outie genitalia (that debate could be amusing to witness from the sidelines though).

Ol’ Mitt certainly did put a cat amongst the pigeons when he talked about the 47% (iirc from overseas). What happens when the majority has the automatic ability to vote themselves the money of the minority? ‘Your’ Founding Fathers had views on the subject that look prescient.

Just1Z

@ADBG
+1
see you poolside

Sai

@Damien Vulaume
“Sounds like you got off to a good start in being an attractive woman…”
That’s why I had parents to help me check myself before I wrecked myself. I can’t believe I just typed that.

@Just1Z
“usual benefits package. apartments in moonbase and volcano HQ. as senior management you would not need to wear an opaque visor.”
…Okay!

“If a woman truly loves you, she will fight to her last breath with utmost courage, for you.”
That wasn’t my quote, I just liked it and responded with a movie clip.

INTJ

@ Iggles

Case in point, the nerd in high school who’s infatuated in love with the most popular girl in school. She can be super bitchy and he won’t see it. Instead he’ll be fixated on how he would treat her better than her jerk, varsity boyfriend. (Of course not seeing that she’s turned on by the jock boyfriend’s dominance..)

Ahh the hamster is strong with this one.

INTJ

@ VD

The backlash against feminism is because more and more men are realizing that the early 20th century anti-suffragettes were correct and feminism is the primary means of demolishing Western civilization. The West is literally dying, economically and demographically, and feminism is one of the primary reasons. Those who value the West want women home and married by 25 because we would like our children, and our children’s children, to grow up in a functioning and stable civilization, not a decadent one collapsing into pagan barbarism.

No. That’s the viewpoint of your little corner of the manosphere. Most of the manosphere is more worried about fairness towards men than the fall of Western civilization.

Just1Z

@Intj
“Most of the manosphere is more worried about fairness towards men than the fall of Western civilization.”

I think that the two are pretty strongly linked…but each has the right to disagree. I think that it’s pretty clear who built society and who do the crappy, dangerous jobs that keep it running. As I said, I think that the two issues are strongly linked.

Just1Z

@Sai,
it was a good quote. if that’s how you feel then you can have my back when Austin Powers / James Bond / teh zombeeeeez attack and the ‘sharks with frikin lasers attached to their heads’ fail us.

Speaking of Austin Powers, I have some Alan Parsons Project albums from my distant past – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Duj2oZIC8U
and Wang Chung and Bananarama

oh the shame!

BTW
“That’s why I had parents to help me check myself before I wrecked myself.”
and what an interesting person you are! *raises eyebrow* (just one, I’m British; we don’t do showy emotions)
See you at Ted’s Beer ‘n’ BBQ Fest by the pool – we can swap tales.
Cheers.

Iggles

Ahh the hamster is strong with this one.

You mean the male hamster Yep, it is, lol!

A Definite Beta Guy

I think that it’s pretty clear who built society and who do the crappy, dangerous jobs that keep it running

Question to men:

Would you want your sisters, daughters, mothers, and wives working on a dangerous, messy oil rig, or in an office?

Question to men:

If you are told you are constantly oppressing women all the time, are probably a rapist, have lots of privilege, a creep, lazy, etc, would you want to work on a messy oil rig for a woman?

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Just1z, I don’t like to get into politics, but a lot of the 47% do pay taxes on the local level, such as taxes on goods, services, and payroll taxes, just not necessarily federal income taxes. They also often pay taxes then get a return back, so that money collects interest in the federal coffers.

Also, the economy of today is such that disposal income of the bottom tend to go back into the economy, because the lower classes want to buy stuff, while the huge increase in wealth at the top tend to get swirled around at the top with the investment class. That money goes into overseas bank accounts and more global investments, as opposed to building the national economy.

Recall that small businesses get taxed at the normal rate, while investments are taxed at the capital gains rate, which are also deferred until taken out, so the “potential” wealth could go quite low as in cases of bubbles bursting. The complicated mathy derivatives and stock packages are just glorified gambling.

The economy at the top is like a giant expensive casino, while the economy at the bottom is the poor and lower middle class making minimum wage and squeaking by, waiting tables, doing cashier work, etc. There are very few who don’t work at all and collect benefits. Not sure how it is in the UK, but that is how it is in the US.

Trickle down economics hasn’t worked. Mitt Romney lost because he was clearly a tool from the wealthy investment class, and the poor who voted for him were ignorant fools who thought their positions could be improved by more pyramid schemes. The elites are no longer national, but global. They care not about US faltering, because with their wealth, they can be anywhere. They’ve transcended.

I’m grateful not to be one of those Chinese factory workers working long hours for dollars a month in awful conditions, but I am not under delusions of grandeur that if my taxes are cut and federal spending becomes miniscule, my life will become so much more amazing here as barely a member of the UMC. Finally, Utah is a nice state because the rich actually reinvest locally (the Mormon influence) and spend the wealth on the “little people.”

Lokland

@ADBG

No and No.

Lokland

@Susan

“Haha, that’s a relief. One of the things I enjoy a lot about being in my 50s is that I am now free to be as outgoing and friendly as I please with men of all ages without worrying about sexual undercurrents.”

That was kinda my point.
Woman don’t become useless after the age of 35. Their useless in terms of marriage and kids but there are other ways to add value to the world.

One of those is to be an all around nurturer (lady mentioned above).
Women can have men wrapped around heir fingers even when sex is not on the table.

Those who think they can’t aren’t feminine enough.

Last, women can gain a far more powerful position in the world by being feminine than being a dominant bitch.

JP

@VD:

“The backlash against feminism is because more and more men are realizing that the early 20th century anti-suffragettes were correct and feminism is the primary means of demolishing Western civilization. The West is literally dying, economically and demographically, and feminism is one of the primary reasons.”

The West is ending because cultures end when they become culturally exhausted/run into resource constraints.

I’m pretty sure that the final cultural peak was circa WWI. We are still technologically developing, so there’s material progress. There’s just no longer cultural/spiritual progress.

In any event, I’m pretty sure that the great migrations/pagan warbands are essentially baked into the cake at this point.

It’s more of a problem of post-modernism/consumer capitalism/mass materialism than anything else.

Oswald Spengler did a wonderful analysis on this, basically seeing the analogy between High Cultures and other living things. Meaning that they are life, in the sense that they are born and they die.

You are unhappy that the West (Faustian civilization) is ending. Which is fine, but you can’t fix it because it’s not really fixable in the way that you want to fix it. You are going to need to find what’s in the future. You’re looking to the past.

The pagan warbands are coming (in the future). What are you going to do about this as the civilization continues to ossify and decline?

Damien Vulaume

@Lokland: “Last, women can gain a far more powerful position in the world by being feminine than being a dominant bitch.”

Yes, and I see it everyday here. Although some can be the devil in disguise, you know the one, the corporate ladder climber.

@Hope:
Standing ovation for your last two paragraph!

doomwolf

@Just1Z

For further world-dominance ideas, check this link:
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Point #100 is especially devious. Free advice is good for a “please don”t kill me card” right?

“Question to men:

Would you want your sisters, daughters, mothers, and wives working on a dangerous, messy oil rig, or in an office?”

NO.

@Lokland

“Last, women can gain a far more powerful position in the world by being feminine than being a dominant bitch.”

It’s amazing what you can get me to do if you follow up your request with a pretty smile. Assuming you’re female. If you’re male I’m going to back away slowly and look for a door. Just saying,

Ted D

““She was always around. She didn’t make many demands, but she wanted to be a part of his life every waking moment, and when he pulled away for some autonomy, she followed close behind to reestablish intimacy as fast as possible.”

Ok. First of all, honestly this doesn’t sound so bad to me. I’ve had to learn to give my wife (past and current) space because I don’t mind the scenario described above at all. Seriously.

Second, how the hell do you folks that can’t live with your partner for a week intend to survive marriage? I’m not being a smart ass, but the reality is if you marry , you will see that person almost every, single, day of your life. So, if after a week they are driving you nuts, perhaps the relationship isn’t meant for the long haul.

Just my .02

Ted D

ADBG – no and no

A Definite Beta Guy

Ted, sometimes you just need alone space for a little bit. My SO lives hours away and I don’t get to see her all the time, but even when she comes in, occasionally I need a small break. So I keep my iPOD handy and just check into the web-er-net on occasion.

This realllllyy ground her nerves at first, but she does understand it now. It’s extremely intense to have someone ALWAYS THERE.

I imagine if I were to live with her, I’d take a few hours in my Man-Cave and watch tv shows I like or something.

@ Lok and Doom

I am glad to see that the men here do not want their women working on oil rigs for the sake of “equality.” I think most men recognize that full equality is bullshit and a bad idea, and most men would be horrified to see it come to full fruition.

I am pretty sure most men do not get off on the idea of excelling at female equalities. I’m good at working in groups, much better than my SO, but I don’t think of it as “I am an even better than a woman than a woman!”

VD

The West is ending because cultures end when they become culturally exhausted/run into resource constraints.

Sure. Feminism/equalitarianism is merely the form in this case.

You are unhappy that the West (Faustian civilization) is ending. Which is fine, but you can’t fix it because it’s not really fixable in the way that you want to fix it. You are going to need to find what’s in the future. You’re looking to the past.

I never said it was fixable. In fact, I publicly pointed out the precise opposite in columns written back in 2001 and 2004.

The pagan warbands are coming (in the future). What are you going to do about this as the civilization continues to ossify and decline?

I wouldn’t assume the warbands will all be pagan.

INTJ

@ Iggles

You mean the male hamster Yep, it is, lol!

Well I’ve always been annoyed by how the hamster is considered exclusively female. Yes, it’s true that men tend to be more logical than women and that current society encourages women to pursue their base instincts (and rationalize them if necessary). But while the hamster might be more common and more severe in the average woman than the average man, it certainly does occur in males.

INTJ

@ Hope

Just1z, I don’t like to get into politics, but a lot of the 47% do pay taxes on the local level, such as taxes on goods, services, and payroll taxes, just not necessarily federal income taxes. They also often pay taxes then get a return back, so that money collects interest in the federal coffers.

Not to mention a lot of those 47% include students and retirees, who shouldn’t be paying taxes…

Just1Z

This is quite a funny explanation of why feminism has an equality-seeking credibility-shortfall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=QKYPW0CTZwY

I think you should be able to handle the sco’ish accent, d’ya ken hens? the peculiar words are comprehensible from the context, or ask PJ what bint means. it isn’t rude over here (or India I have been told).

he’s a funny guy on the GirlWritesWhat channel – enjoy, he’s cool

Just1Z

Sorry PJ but you’re approaching peejcon4, I’m leaving you to your beaulux.

I tried being nice, but you just can’t manage an even keel, can you?

Just1Z

@Hope
thanks for the insight, I am a foreigner your ways are mysterious and strange…that and the fact that I hate politicians of all stripes in all countries – same shit, different gravy

What many western countries do have in common is that the rich (1% if you wish) don’t pay much tax as a %age of their income, the big companies have overseas HQs for tax purposes, the poor don’t have the money, so every time it’s the middles that gets the bill. Guess where I am?

I don’t want to pay for free housing for single-mummies-by-choice and their child benefits. or third generation never employed.

hence men opting to minimise their earnings to minimise their taxes. see Captain Capitalism’s blog – it’s what he’s doing. to really score with benefits you need to give birth to a kid with no resident daddy.

JP

@VD:

“Pagan warbands” is shorthand.

The successful warbands with respect to the Roman Empire were Arian Christians.

@Hope:

“The elites are no longer national, but global. They care not about US faltering, because with their wealth, they can be anywhere. They’ve transcended.”

A lot of the “wealth” is fake.

It doesn’t really exist.

They haven’t transcended anything; they’re just delusional (in the sense that they don’t really understand the underlying reality).

JP

@Hari:

“In the US its unfortunately not “pagans” who are coming but more and more Catholics (sorry Susan but you know how I feel about intolerant monotheism).”

I think that was 10 years ago, if you are talking about hispanics. The construction boom ended.

Now, it’s people from Asia.:

http://pjmedia.com/spengler/2012/11/09/what-about-asian-americans/

And the immediate American problem is that the hegemonic delegitmation process has begun. Which is going to be bad news unless the U.S. comes up with an actual solution that actually mitigates the damage.

JP

“If you are in the system you have to work unless you can prove “disability” which is very difficult to do.”

Yes.

As I tell my clients, you actually have to have medical evidence that proves you are disabled.

Administrative Law Judges generally only care about the evidence.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@Hope

Trickle down economics hasn’t worked.

I’ll agree that supply-side promises of windfall tax revenue didn’t materialize as promised. But I haven’t seen any evidence that demand-side economics works all that well, either. The only time it has (per my college economic history classes) was when the gov’t all but nationalized the economy during WW2. That wasn’t meant to be a long-term solution, and it was rolled back dramatically after the war was over.

This little nugget was reported in July by Bloomberg News, well before the election. I never heard it mentioned at all during the debates, though I wouldn’t have expected the President to do so:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/companies-say-3-million-unfilled-positions-in-skill-crisis-jobs.html

No federal stimulus would have addressed this particular problem, which is probably why unemployment remains so high.

Just1Z

Thanks to Doomwolf for his link, entertaining! and so informative.

I have done more investigation into my plan for world domination bwahahahah etc

unfortunately Sai, you’re out of a jub:

First and foremost, do not hire the hot chick. You know what I mean; every Bond villain surrounds himself with one or two hulking henchmen, a dozen to a hundred hired killers and one lone female, invariably gorgeous and always the weak link in the chain.

Hey, I’m as human as the next guy; I understand the appeal of a pretty face, especially when your other employees are a pack of broken-nosed thugs. But the cold, hard truth is that it’s just not worth jeopardizing your one shot at global domination to watch some cutie sashay around the fortress in a mini-skirt.

You might tell yourself she has strategic value; she can seduce that womanizing 007 and lure him to his doom. Trust me, it never works. In From Russia With Love, SPECTRE recruits blonde bombshell Tatiana Romanova to seduce Bond and set him up for the kill; instead she falls for him and turns on her handlers. In You Only Live Twice, a helplessly bound Bond faces torture from SPECTRE’s ravishing redhead Helga Brandt and her nasty collection of surgical instruments. She uses them only to cut Bond loose for a bout of lovemaking. In Live and Let Die, Kananga’s inner circle consists of a fat killer, a hook-handed hoodlum, a possibly immortal zombie lord and, of course, Solitaire, a sexy female fortune-teller. (Which of these things does not belong?) Naturally she’s seduced by 007 and disaster follows. Most famously, Pussy Galore — a career criminal on the verge of pulling off the biggest heist of her career — is completely reformed by one roll in the hay with James Bond and sells out her partner-in-crime Goldfinger, literally on the doorstep of Fort Knox.

To be fair, not every bad girl is swayed by a tryst with James Bond. Fiona in Thunderball and Elektra in The World Is Not Enough have their fun with the super-spy and remain happily on the side of evil. Until they’re shot to death, that is. Fatima Blush of Never Say Never Again emerges from her dalliance with 007 as gleefully rotten as ever . . . until she explodes.

On the whole however, hiring a female agent tends to open you up to more risks than you’ll want to take on. And really, why bother if she’ll be the only woman in the entire organization, anyway? Or were you planning to outfit the volcano fortress with a “Ladies” room and separate shower facilities just for her? When you’re already guilty of nuclear blackmail, genocide and missile toppling, the last thing you should care about is complaints from the Equal Employment Opportunity crowd<. But if for some reason you feel you simply must hire a woman, then for pity’s sake at least don’t tempt fate with a name like “Pussy Galore.”

http://www.hmss.com/films/villains/evilgenius/

Ted D

ADBG – I guess “alone time” is different from person to person. I get most of my share of “alone time” sitting in bed with my wife while she watches TV and I do my thing on the laptop or iPad. Other than that, my daily drive to work and an occasional solo excursion are all I need.

That being said, my wife and I have spent entire afternoons together without talking more than a few short paragraphs worth. So perhaps I get enough space from her even when I’m with her. I’ll have to think on this, because generally I DO need space from my friends and extended family.

JP

“Construction has given way to Big Agro and Big Meat, which employs EVEN MORE illegal Catholic immigrants from south of the boarder.”

My point was that the momentum has shifted from hispanic to asian immigration.

This is really only relevant to the question of whether California is going to be primarily a hispanic culture or an asian-hispanic fusion culture and has little to do with anything else.

Damien Vulaume

@Hari: “Any examples of that? Thatcher? Clinton (Hillary)? Gandhi (Indira)?, Rice? Who?”

Lol. I would pull out Indira Ghandi from the list, The others are not women, but creatures from the opposite sex, and career politicians…enough said. You could also include Madeleine Allbright and Segolene Royal in the pack.
I was talking about the ambitious, feminine, young, well mannered, sweet talking and very attractive girls coming from a small village hitting the capital city with high career expectations in big corporations. I don’t know how that scene looks like in the US though.

JP

@VD:

“And yes, in any sane society that wishes to survive, women and 80 percent of men would not be permitted to vote. John Adams explained the former, Cicero the latter. I understand most people think I’m crazy. Most people also thought I was crazy when I told them to buy gold like crazy at $275 an ounce when Gordon Brown was dumping it. Most people are idiots… which is why nearly every coherent thinker since Ancient Greece has known that democracy is insane, unstable, and unsustainable.”

Preventing 80 percent of men and all women from voting doesn’t really do anything in terms of the longevity of a High Culture.

I understand your point, but I don’t think that taking away the right to vote from women is really going to fix anything.

The current embodiment of the Savior/Welfare State is a function of the problems encountered during the Great Depression and relates directly to industrialization.

SayWhaat

@ Ted:

Second, how the hell do you folks that can’t live with your partner for a week intend to survive marriage? I’m not being a smart ass, but the reality is if you marry , you will see that person almost every, single, day of your life. So, if after a week they are driving you nuts, perhaps the relationship isn’t meant for the long haul.

I questioned this as well, and tbh it was kind of at the root of my insecurity when I felt him pulling away. But as ADBG mentioned above, I’m fine with the idea of him having his own “man cave” for retreat, and I actually don’t mind having my own alone time as well. We’ve also been able to each do our own thing, not speaking to each other, simply sharing the same room for company. It’s a pretty nice arrangement, if I do say so myself!

JP

” but there has been no downward shift in the momentum of illegal Catholic immigration.”

I think it’s net zero at the moment because there’s no longer a credit bubble.

In any event, religious freedom is going to be the least of our worries going forward.

Secular liberalism doesn’t have the slightest interest in it beyond being annoyed that religion is still here and that’s who is going to be running the show for some time.

JP

This thread has gone completely off the rails. Break’s over. Back to briefing.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

Not to mention a lot of those 47% include students and retirees, who shouldn’t be paying taxes…

If they earn income, as most students and retirees do, they should pay some % in taxes. That’s the only “fair” way to fund the gov’t IMO. Deductions and tax credits ad nauseam are primary reasons why the U.S. has a revenue problem. It isn’t because we don’t have a progressive tax code. Other way around…

Damien Vulaume

@Say whaat: “We’ve also been able to each do our own thing, not speaking to each other, simply sharing the same room for company. It’s a pretty nice arrangement, if I do say so myself!”

That looks like a real passionate and heart warming relationship………….. Well, I guess everyone finds his /her own way with relationships. Whatever works.

Sassy6519

This thread……………………………

I’m going to need another package of twizzlers for this.

Ted D

SayWhaat – ” We’ve also been able to each do our own thing, not speaking to each other, simply sharing the same room for company. It’s a pretty nice arrangement, if I do say so myself!”

This! This is exactly how “personal space” works in my marriage. I have all the space I need when she is with me, because when I’m quiet she can sit next to me and leave me alone while keeping me company.

Ted D

The flip side is this is why people being around tends to annoy me in general. For some reason most people insist on talking to someone if they are near them regardless of whether or not they have anything of importance to say. I very much enjoy my wife’s company because much of it is spent in silence, or at least with no idle chit chat. We talk if we have something to say, and simply enjoy each others company in silence when we don’t.

INTJ

@ Ted D

This! This is exactly how “personal space” works in my marriage. I have all the space I need when she is with me, because when I’m quiet she can sit next to me and leave me alone while keeping me company.

The flip side is this is why people being around tends to annoy me in general. For some reason most people insist on talking to someone if they are near them regardless of whether or not they have anything of importance to say. I very much enjoy my wife’s company because much of it is spent in silence, or at least with no idle chit chat. We talk if we have something to say, and simply enjoy each others company in silence when we don’t.

Haha yup. My ideal version of “personal space” would be sitting next to or cuddling with my SO while I daydream or do work on the computer.

INTJ

From an etymological perspective, it should be noted that hypergamy is not necessarily male or female. Hypergamy can be practiced by either sex. It just so happens that historically, female hypergamy, aka hyperandry, has been more common.

Ted D

INTJ – ” Haha yup. My ideal version of “personal space” would be sitting next to or cuddling with my SO while I daydream or do work on the computer.”

Yep! And it only took me 2 LTRs and 2 marriages to find it. :-p

Sai

Re: personal space
No awkward silences that way, right?

“So here in the above exchange you admit you never thought yourself unattractive at all but had parents who had to “check” you before you got too big in attitude for your britches because of your looks?

What gives?”
My parents had to check me so I didn’t devote a lifetime of work to yelling at other people.

@Just1Z
It was worth a try, I guess.

Ted D

Of course those relationships span the time from 16 to 39 years old though. LOL

Ted D

Hari Christmas – ” I’ll tell you how, they don’t intend to survive marriage. These people aren’t even engaged. Marriage isn’t anywhere near the table. Its just another “relationship” out of many to come.”

Well then to my original point: why be with them at all? If they don’t intend to marry their current SO someday, why bother continuing the relationship?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

This thread = completely overtaken by Plain Jane.

Damien Vulaume

@hary christmas: “Ah Hah! You finally said it, “attractive”. The “intent coloured with natural infatuation” is not simply enough, now is it?”

With all due respect, I’m slowly beginning to understand why so many people pick on you all the time here. I must be slow witted
You seem to have personal, defensive issues about your looks. My comment was meant to describe a category of young ambitious women in the Czech Republic. Wether I find them personally attractive or not is irrelevent.
And yes, I don’t find myself guilty of being more physically attracted to women that suit my own taste. I very much doubt that when you enter a public place, a fat, swearing “Mike or Bill” with a baseball cap on and the face of Newt Gingrich would be the first that would catch the gaze of your flirty eyes.

INTJ

@ Ted D

Well then to my original point: why be with them at all? If they don’t intend to marry their current SO someday, why bother continuing the relationship?

This is a common thing amongst young women (especially the ones that are interested in young guys), and I can’t really figure it out.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Sheesh, Vox Day is trying to repeal the 19th Amendment on my blog and Plain Jane is off her meds again. Here goes the Delete button!

INTJ

@ Susan

As Just1Z pointed out, Hairy Christmas seems to be clogging up the comment threads. Perhaps another PJ ban is in order?

Hari Christmas

Damien Vulaume December 2, 2012 at 3:44 pm

@hary christmas: “Ah Hah! You finally said it, “attractive”. The “intent coloured with natural infatuation” is not simply enough, now is it?”

With all due respect, I’m slowly beginning to understand why so many people pick on you all the time here. I must be slow witted
You seem to have personal, defensive issues about your looks.

—-

You are new so you missed the endless threads with men saying “women say they want nice, sensitive guys who will treat them right but they don’t…..wah …. I had to take the red pill to find out the truth”

They are surprised to learn that yes we want nice, sensitive guys who treat us right but whom we are also attracted to first. They seem to think that being nice is enough, and I don’t know where they got that idea from since we women never say that.

Just like when men say they want x amount of qualities in a woman, its a given that they are talking about a woman they are attracted to first, same goes for us.

That was kind of what I was getting at in a joking way.

Iggles

@ PJ:

Did she have a career? Hobbies? Family (that she loved, not common in the USA, heh)? Friends? A life of her own outside some random dude she shacked up with?

Isn’t it usually people who don’t have a life who do stuff like that?

There definitely a “type” that’s prone to do this.

It’s the high intensity, drama folks who usually dive right in. Heads first. I have a friend like this. She loves the beginning stages – intense chemistry, falling fast, fantastic sex, practically moving in together within weeks – but the momentum never seems to last. She admits it’s a risky strategy and has had her heart crushed many times, but she loves the rush too much to try building a relationship at a slower pace.

To each their own..

Damien Vulaume

@Olive: “This thread = completely overtaken by Plain Jane.”
It does look like that indeed!

Now, THIS is intersting:
Ted D: “I very much enjoy my wife’s company because much of it is spent in silence, or at least with no idle chit chat.”
INTJ: “Haha yup. My ideal version of “personal space” would be sitting next to or cuddling with my SO while I daydream or do work on the computer.”

What I found, based on my experiences, is that girls (rather than women) tend to feel insecure or neglected in a relationship if they don’t get enough attention at home, attention in a verbal way. I’ve always found women more verbal and talkative than men in their social interactions, certainly between them, but with everybody in general. I think they’re more communicative or at least need to be much more so than men.
Although what I gather from Ted D is different, he’s talking about his grown up mariage, and apparently a tacit agreement between him and his wife.

On another note, I’m always a bit distressed when I see those couples in restaurants who can spend the whole dinner without utering a single word to each other, obviously bored and used to one another. This I witnessed everywhere. I never understood how why those couples were still together.

MLM

“INTJ December 2, 2012 at 3:45 pm

@ Ted D

Well then to my original point: why be with them at all? If they don’t intend to marry their current SO someday, why bother continuing the relationship?

This is a common thing amongst young women (especially the ones that are interested in young guys), and I can’t really figure it out.”

Women are the only ones that do this?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

I’m always a bit distressed when I see those couples in restaurants who can spend the whole dinner without utering a single word to each other, obviously bored and used to one another.

Last Valentine’s Day my BF and I went to Olive Garden (I know, I know, so cliche) and there was a couple at a table right near us, both on their smartphones/texting The. Entire. Time. My BF and I spent several moments quietly poking fun at the awkwardness.

INTJ

@ Damien Vulaume

What I found, based on my experiences, is that girls (rather than women) tend to feel insecure or neglected in a relationship if they don’t get enough attention at home, attention in a verbal way. I’ve always found women more verbal and talkative than men in their social interactions, certainly between them, but with everybody in general. I think they’re more communicative or at least need to be much more so than men.

Hah. Maybe I just need to let out my natural asshole game and say “Shut up bee-itch!”

Ted D

Damien Vulaume – “I’m always a bit distressed when I see those couples in restaurants who can spend the whole dinner without utering a single word to each other, obviously bored and used to one another. This I witnessed everywhere. I never understood how why those couples were still together.”

Well, we usually at least talk a little, but we are close enough to this that I feel confident answering.

It’s simple: we do not need to talk to enjoy being with each other. Literally, I feel better just being in her presence, and she enjoys the calming influence I have on her. (Deep down she is a slightly extroverted social butterfly ENFJ). We can enjoy a meal alone, but just sharing it with each other makes it better, even if we have nothing at all to say to each other. And at the root of it, this is why I love having her with me as much as possible. She doesn’t waste my time with inane yapping about nothing, and her presence adds to my enjoyment of just about everything I like doing.

Now, I’ve seen “silent couples” that we’re silent because the were miserable with each other, but that is in no way the same as what my wife and I share.

But we get alone time occasionally. She is out with her mom and the girls shopping for a dress for her Xmas party, and the boys and I rearranged the living room furniture to make room for the tree. Oh, and I got the oil in the van changed. Pretty productive use of our time apart.

VD

Vox Day is trying to repeal the 19th Amendment on my blog and Plain Jane is off her meds again.

Hey now… I simply made an observation. I have repeatedly stated there is zero chance of any Western society restricting voting in any manner. I expect children and aliens to be given the franchise first. Just remember that I observed it before the collapse.

It’s remarkable how obvious the financial crash of 2008 was to everyone after the fact. I expect the unsustainable demographics of Western societies will be equally ex post facto obvious.

Ted D

Olive – “Last Valentine’s Day my BF and I went to Olive Garden (I know, I know, so cliche) and there was a couple at a table right near us, both on their smartphones/texting The. Entire. Time. My BF and I spent several moments quietly poking fun at the awkwardness.”

And again, the wife and I resemble this enough to chime in and I’d like to give you an alternative view on this. Perhaps this couple was indeed so bored with each other that the were seemingly ignoring each other right at the table. But…

My wife and I do this on occasion. It isn’t that we are bored with each other. It is that we are so comfortable with each other that we realize it is OK if we are not always 100% focused on each other as we spend time together. I don’t get offended if my wife picks up her phone at dinner to glance at a Facebook, and she doesn’t take it personally if I send a text or two during dinner. I’m not ignoring her at all. I’m thoroughly enjoying her company WHILE I’m writing that text. And she enjoys that I enjoy her company. She knows that while she is checking Facebook, I am sitting across the table appreciating her companionship even though she isn’t paying much attention to me at the moment. Her just being with me means a great deal to me, and since I enjoy her company often, I have to allow that she needs to focus on others sometimes as well. By allowing each other the opportunity to mentally “check out” while spending time together, we can spend more time together and still maintain relationships with others.

This is how we use modern technology and communications to improve our lives. It allows us to spend more time together without neglecting our commitments to foster other relationships with friends and family.

Iggles

It’s simple: we do not need to talk to enjoy being with each other. Literally, I feel better just being in her presence, and she enjoys the calming influence I have on her. (Deep down she is a slightly extroverted social butterfly ENFJ). We can enjoy a meal alone, but just sharing it with each other makes it better, even if we have nothing at all to say to each other. And at the root of it, this is why I love having her with me as much as possible. She doesn’t waste my time with inane yapping about nothing, and her presence adds to my enjoyment of just about everything I like doing.

This is lovely, Ted! Aww

And probably the most romantic thing I’ve ever read on HUS.

I feel the same way about my boyfriend. We don’t need to talk to enjoy being together.

JP

“It’s remarkable how obvious the financial crash of 2008 was to everyone after the fact.”

2008 was my best year recently for investment and speculation. It was absolutely wonderful, in the sense that an amusement park is wonderful. When you see a major financial bubble, you short it.

I can’t deal with Financial Repression. 2011 was my worse year ever. Fortunately, I’ve recovered and am now back to steady positive returns again.

“I expect the unsustainable demographics of Western societies will be equally ex post facto obvious.”

They are obvious now and have been obvious for some time. Although Japan and South Korea seem to be worse.

@Susan:

In fairness to Vox, he was also recommending that non-property owning men also be stripped of the right to vote.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

In fairness to Vox, he was also recommending that non-property owning men also be stripped of the right to vote.

In that case, forget I objected.

Ted D

Iggles – I said I had a VERY gooey emotional center. There are few people in this world that will ever see any of it at all, and the only people that have seen it in all it’s horror and glory are my LTR mates. So perhaps you can understand why I find it so damn hard to use “game” on my wife. She is literally the only person in my life that knows or sees the real me in its entirety every single day. No one, even my closets friends, sees it all.

Ted D

Lol. Closet = closest above. Beer and iPad autocorrect for the lose!

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Ted,
To each his own (recall that I refuse to get a smartphone precisely because I don’t want to be THAT person, but if it doesn’t bother you it’s no skin off my back). However, I want to point out something.

There’s a difference between “spending time together” and being in a setting that sort of facilitates face-to-face interaction and communication. For example, at this very moment I’m spending a nice Sunday afternoon with my BF, but I’m sitting here writing this post, while he’s watching football (you Stillers fans!) and loudly expressing his disdain for his videogame. No talking required.

However, if we were out to dinner somewhere and he had to check his facebook every 15 minutes, I’d become increasingly annoyed. Again, it’s a manners thing for me. But as always, YMMV.

Damien Vulaume

@INTJ: “Hah. Maybe I just need to let out my natural asshole game and say “Shut up bee-itch!”

Oh man…… showing your true colours, hé? Why being so prompt at lashing out insults at girls? Good luck in finding your soul mate.
Looks like there are lots of things going on here that I don’t understand

INTJ

Bah. It isn’t voting that’s the problem. Everyone knows women can’t drive.

Ted D

Olive – ” There’s a difference between “spending time together” and being in a setting that sort of facilitates face-to-face interaction and communication.”

I actually agree with you on this, which is why we both make an effort not to be on the phone often when out. But, we spend so much time together that it hardly makes a difference if I choose dinner or TV time in bed to strike up a conversation. So, if we don’t have anything to say at dinner, why not use the tike for something more productive than talking about the weather?

INTJ

@ Damien Vulaume

Oh man…… showing your true colours, hé? Why being so prompt at lashing out insults at girls? Good luck in finding your soul mate.
Looks like there are lots of things going on here that I don’t understand

I was being facetious.

Though admittedly there have been times when I’ve wanted to do this:

Iggles

Iggles – I said I had a VERY gooey emotional center. There are few people in this world that will ever see any of it at all, and the only people that have seen it in all it’s horror and glory are my LTR mates

Often the people with the toughest shells are soft on the inside!

My boyfriend has a pessimistic view of most people. He readily admits he had his guard up with me until he could fully assess my character and what I am about. I figured out it because when he falls, he falls hard. He’s been burned in the past by lovers and friends so to make it into his inner circle takes time and building trust.

Also speaking of tough shells, one of my best friends embodies this too. On first impression she comes off tough and/or intimidating to some, but once you get to know her she’s nothing like that! Lol. She’s a big goofball (she loves pulling pranks) and is a caring, genuine person

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Ted,
I don’t feel that facebook is ever “productive,” but again, YMMV.

Ted D

Olive – LOL on Facebook. I agree. But my wife puts it to great use staying in touch with her large circle while spending most of her time with me and our children. To me, that is productive and a rather great multitasking use of time.

Ted D

Iggles – ” My boyfriend has a pessimistic view of most people. He readily admits he had his guard up with me until he could fully assess my character and what I am about. I figured out it because when he falls, he falls hard. He’s been burned in the past by lovers and friends so to make it into his inner circle takes time and building trust.”

From this description I think you have a pretty damn good idea of how I work as well. Your description of your husband and his experiences with “the world” and getting burned very my mirror my own past. And indeed, when I fall, it leaves a huge crater.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

My husband does his man cave thing by going to the shooting range (which he’s at now). I did go with him before I was pregnant/nursing, but only rarely.

We often play video games or do stuff on our computers in the same room, just being comfortable, and every now and then talking about game stuff. He’s not into sports (which I totally appreciate).

I do like to ask him silly female questions like “what are you thinking?” and “what are ya up to?” He hates those questions. I’m generally not very talkative though, being more introverted than him.

But I like my personal space, too. When I first moved in with him, he asked me why I had closed the door when I used the bathroom. I was like, uh? Apparently he grew up with open bathroom doors, and when I close the door, he thinks I’m being distant.

On a selfish note, I appreciate baby napping time, when I can be all alone, too.

JP

@Iggles:

“My boyfriend has a pessimistic view of most people. He readily admits he had his guard up with me until he could fully assess my character and what I am about. I figured out it because when he falls, he falls hard. He’s been burned in the past by lovers and friends so to make it into his inner circle takes time and building trust.”

I have a rather pessimistic view of myself. I readily admit that I have burned myself in the past.

I’ve noticed that the common denominator in many of my live problems have been that there was a significant contribution to the problem by me.

JP

“I do like to ask him silly female questions like “what are you thinking?” ”

I’ve found that my wife generally doesn’t like the answer to this question.

http://x OffTheCuff

Ohhh… troll is gone, now we can talk like grownups. Hi, hope your Sunday is as awesome as mine. We brewed beer, made my Sicilian grandmother’s meat sauce, and played some games with the kids.

Any real relationship cannot be filled with 24/7 activity, unless you’re both dopamine-addled extroverts. Even a dual-extrovert pair needs some down time — they just do it in private.

Wifey and I are all over the map, sometimes when we are out, we chat up strangers, other times we only talk to each other, and once in a whole it might actually look like we’re being totally silent (but we are usually playing footsie).

She actually never asks me what am I thinking — we are kinda opposite in many ways.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

We brewed beer, made my Sicilian grandmother’s meat sauce, and played some games with the kids.

That sounds like a fabulous Sunday! We didn’t get to see much of our kids this weekend – I missed them! Next Sunday is tree trimming and I am planning to make “Sunday gravy” for guests – I can’t claim a family recipe, though.

Damien Vulaume

@Olive: “I don’t feel that facebook is ever “productive,”

I don’t either. Besides the “big brother” side to it, it is often a time spent on it virtually communicating with close ones you could actually meet by just taking the subway and share a real human meeting. with them.

@Ted D: “But my wife puts it to great use staying in touch with her large circle while spending most of her time with me and our children.”

This I observed with many couple around me. I don’t know about the world statistics of facebook users, but I woud not be surprised if it showed that there are more female users than male users. Just a guess.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

To each his own (recall that I refuse to get a smartphone precisely because I don’t want to be THAT person, but if it doesn’t bother you it’s no skin off my back). However, I want to point out something.

I share this idea I only want a smartphone for uses like directions (since I can’t read a map) but I wouldn’t want to use it when I’m around people and talking. I do like Facebook both for the keeping tabs on people and for the chances of learning new stuff really quickly I had found many interesting articles by people sharing with other people things I’m interested but they don’t know I’m into or they are not close enough to share. Is also a good way to publicize my blog posts.
In spending time with hubby is good that we are past the stage of insecurity so sometimes we spent time talking all day,sometimes over coffee, he goes out with friends to play Car Wars I go out with friends to watch Twilight, sometimes we stay at home he is in his computer and I am in mine no need to say anything. And all this is normal.

Ted D

“it is often a time spent on it virtually communicating with close ones you could actually meet by just taking the subway and share a real human meeting. with them.”

Well sure. But, in order to do that, my wife would have to be gone from home often, as she really has a huge number of friends. And, many of them are still in New Hampshire, and she can hardly just jump in the car for a 12 hour drive to shoot the breeze.

If she didn’t satisfy her social needs by using Facebook, she would either need to spend most of her free time visiting people, or she would go stir crazy for lack of socializing, because obviously I’m not going to be able to meet that demand. She is the reason I discovered any use for Facebook at all. But unlike her, I’m perfectly happy with a small handful of friends I only talk to on occasion.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Re: facebook, I guess I should clarify because my post made it sound like I despise it lol. I do find facebook quite useful for keeping in touch with old friends and even making plans in some cases. I just think that it can become quite addicting, and can be used as a substitute for actual real life interaction. Now, if you’re Ted (who, for an introvert, is quite social here at HUS ), that’s not necessarily a bad thing, I guess. But to me, it’s the same thing as if I whipped out my phone and started texting in the middle of a college class or a business meeting. There’s a time and place, and Olive Garden with your SO on Valentine’s Day isn’t it, IMO.

SayWhaat

@ Damien:

@Say whaat: “We’ve also been able to each do our own thing, not speaking to each other, simply sharing the same room for company. It’s a pretty nice arrangement, if I do say so myself!”

That looks like a real passionate and heart warming relationship………….. Well, I guess everyone finds his /her own way with relationships. Whatever works.

I usually try to avoid the need to defend my relationship to anonymous Internet strangers. All I was trying to convey was how each of us could find our own “down time” while still enjoying the other’s company. I am very extroverted, and my boyfriend is very introverted, so it works for both of us.

Sometimes it doesn’t, though…like yesterday, when we nixed half of the errands we needed to run, just because we enjoyed cuddling under the covers for longer than we should have! XD

Lokland

@Olive

I got to watch a relationship train wreck itself in slow motion via pictures from half way across the planet.

All bow to the glory of The Facebook which made the hours of 11:30-2:30 incredibly entertaining, yet also sad (for the man in question)…

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Lokland,
Lol, facebook is a gossip’s playground. “Omigod, did you hear…?” “Yeah, I saw it on facebook!”

A Definite Beta Guy

I deactivated my facebook for a long time because everyone seemed fake. Then I reactivated it because everyone just uploads their pictures to it, and I like keeping up with my friends that way.

I think I might start going traditional and getting albums, though. There is just something more upscale about that.

I’m glad the rest of you had great Sundays. Mine involved helping to host a Baby Shower. Ugh. Women-folk doing women things. I was appointed baby-sitter, which is cool, I like kids, but goddam.

Ted D

Olive – “Now, if you’re Ted (who, for an introvert, is quite social here at HUS )”

Dear, I’m not introverted because I don’t like to talk. I’m introverted because I don’t particularly like talking with people face to face. The Internet is my favorite means of communicating, followed by text and then email. I can keep up with my friends and actually only see them once every few months for an evening and be good. I get all the interaction I need for the most part virtually, and rely on my wife and family for the face to face stuff. And I love that I can do all this without actually having to go visit anyone.

Lokland

@Olive

““Omigod, did you hear…?” “Yeah, I saw it on facebook!”

I have to share.
First, though it sucks, the result is good for the guy in question.
(Who ended the relationship this afternoon.)

LDR, one on the other side of ocean.
Girl has lingerie/sluber party with friends. Kool.
Girl uploads picks to Facebook, one at a time as night progresses. WTF!! (Even more WTF!!! as I could see these and I know her in a professional capacity, as well as her now ex.)

Girl gets comments and subsequently flirts with all her new admirer’s. Ohh hell no.

Boyfriend becomes just another guy.

Anyway, long story short, girl was bad news from the get go. Everyone told him so (not me, not my place, but you can be damn sure I was praying he’d listen. I like the kid.).
Result unsurprising.

@ADBG

Pics are the only reason I still keep Facebook. Me and my wife use it as a virtual album.

JP

I win the Worst Sunday Award. I’m briefing and will be for the forseeable future.

Stupid 18 month lag time.

VD

In that case, forget I objected.

To understand my perspective on voting, it may help to understand that I have lived most of my adult life in countries where I was not allowed to vote. I simply don’t have the emotional the connection between voting and freedom that most people, particularly Americans, do.

No doubt the fact that I am a libertarian and no one I have ever voted for has ever won an election at any level may also be a factor.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@VD

I’m relieved to hear you bear no personal responsibility for Italian election results over the past few years.

INTJ

@ Hope

But I like my personal space, too. When I first moved in with him, he asked me why I had closed the door when I used the bathroom. I was like, uh? Apparently he grew up with open bathroom doors, and when I close the door, he thinks I’m being distant.

Hah. I’m actually curious now. Is it common amongst whites to leave the bathroom door open?

http://x OffTheCuff

My kids are all under 12. A day home with them inside is basically ensuring they don’t destroy anything… or each other.

INTJ

@ Susan

I’m relieved to hear you bear no personal responsibility for Italian election results over the past few years.

Akk. My stomach hurts. Please try not to make me laugh so hard!

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Ted,
I’m mostly just pulling your leg. Though I have a hunch you’re less introverted than my BF, for example, who tends to get in the zone and doesn’t want to be bothered, even via technology. 5 minutes ago I asked him why he was smiling and he just said “because my bitch was leaving me alone.” Douchebag…

Ted D

Olive – “5 minutes ago I asked him why he was smiling and he just said “because my bitch was leaving me alone.” Douchebag… ”

ROFL! I don’t ever want to hear you say your man doesn’t have game. That answer was brilliant!

INTJ

@ Olive

5 minutes ago I asked him why he was smiling and he just said “because my bitch was leaving me alone.” Douchebag…

Hahaha. What a man.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Nice Sunday here too:
I placed the baby on the opposite side of the crib and his little mind was blown with the new angles (that was mommy’s advice to exercise his eyesight) I made a Tuna Casserole that I always wanted to try and the hubby approved and some Coconut Anise bread (this one is the bread my mother used to sell when we were growing up and has been passed from mother to daughter for at least 4 generations, is a family recipe no one in the country knows how to make it mwa ha ha ha) and I managed to come up with a very interesting theological tale that I think is quite good. Need to put in the folder of “to write” nice Sunday all allong.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Anacaona

That sounds like a lovely day! Those small pleasures are the best. Coconut Anise bread sounds delicious – will google.

Mike C

Recall that small businesses get taxed at the normal rate, while investments are taxed at the capital gains rate, which are also deferred until taken out, so the “potential” wealth could go quite low as in cases of bubbles bursting. The complicated mathy derivatives and stock packages are just glorified gambling.

Hope,

This isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Most large corporations are C-corps, while small business are either S-corps, LLCs, partnerships, or sole proprietorships.

The latter do NOT pay any taxes at the “business” level. The businesses are 100% pass through entities, and the “owners” pay personal income tax on the business earnings.

In contrast, C-corps are double taxed. The business itself pays corporate income tax BEFORE any of the money is distributed to the owners….the stockholders. The U.S. has one of the highest nominal corporate income tax rates in the world at I believe 35% off the top of my head although the effective rate is often much, much lower because the system can be gamed with various deductions. The actual shareholders who own stock then pay tax on any dividends the corporation pays out…..which is presently 15% off the top of my head because of the Bush tax cuts, and also pay capital gains tax on stock appreciation.

The debate/argument about what is fair tax policy involving corporations, the double tax issue, and whether large corporations even pay real tax (pass through to customers) is beyond the scope of this discussion and I don’t have the time or inclination to get into that. But the way you framed the comparison in terms of the raw facts is misleading.

The economy at the top is like a giant expensive casino, while the economy at the bottom is the poor and lower middle class making minimum wage and squeaking by, waiting tables, doing cashier work, etc. There are very few who don’t work at all and collect benefits. Not sure how it is in the UK, but that is how it is in the US.

I agree that the U.S. economy has become too “financialized” with essentially anyone involved in finances, owning paper assets essentially getting too much of the total pie.

On a different note, Mr. Wavevector….you are just absolutely killing it. Your comments since you have arrived here are exceptional. You absolutely are right on so many things, and I find myself nodding my head reading your comments. You are absolutely right in pointing out that many women still don’t get the value proposition of a man being in a committed, monogamous relationship. There has to be more than regular sex and having a “hot” wife due to the man’s status. There is a massive amount of cognitive dissonance amongst many women even those who ostensibly appear more empathetic to the male POV. At the end of the day, many women value their “strength and independence” and empowerment ABOVE EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING ELSE.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

Uh oh, do I need to start quoting David Buss again at great length?

There has to be more than regular sex and having a “hot” wife due to the man’s status.

There has to be? We’re talking about biology. That is the trade – men may increase their SMV via status. It is as simple as that, and actually has nothing to do with commitment.

many women still don’t get the value proposition of a man being in a committed, monogamous relationship.

What is the value proposition? Since most men are not in a position to “take care” of a woman in the traditional sense that Mr. Wavevector describes, how do women benefit from male investment?

szopen

@Ashley

“Side thought: Are men actually threatened by women who are attractive, rich, powerful, and self sufficient because they feel they have nothing to offer (since you suggest that a man needs to feed needed).

No, (and yes). It’s not “threatened”. It’s “not seeing where do I fit in her life”. When I started to live with my future wife, I was still studying. I felt not comfortable with her, until I finally get the job. I was really, really happy when I brought home my first REAL salary from REAL job and I knew it that I was bringing something to the relationship. I think that if I wouldn’t be able to get the job that time, I would break up with her, no matter how much I loved her.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@szopen and the other guys too

I felt not comfortable with her, until I finally get the job. I was really, really happy when I brought home my first REAL salary from REAL job and I knew it that I was bringing something to the relationship. I think that if I wouldn’t be able to get the job that time, I would break up with her, no matter how much I loved her.

I heard from a young friend this weekend who has been seeing someone for about six months. They met via a random encounter and get along really well. The thing is, she is in a high status job. He used to have a similar job but was laid off almost two years ago, and has been unable to get anything even remotely similar. He has been mostly working odd menial jobs to cover his bills. Needless to say, he has become extremely discouraged.

He recently ended the relationship. He told her that although she is the best thing to have happened to him in months, he “feels like a loser all the time.” He also said that he cannot possibly be responsible for another person’s happiness right now – all of his energy must be directed toward finding employment. He promised that if he gets a job, she will be the first person he calls. She is in love with him, and devastated.

Does this surprise you? Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?” or would you feel the same way? What should she do? I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part. She feels that if he cared enough, he would stay in the relationship, and she also points out that he acknowledges his life is better with her in it. I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?

szopen

@susan

My son was eagerly pointing at fire trucks before he turned one, and my daughter was pretending to feed her stuffed animals before her first birthday.

I hate to play “girl’s plays” so when I was playing with my daughter, I always played as I would play with a boy. Once we created harpies from the paper and started to play in Jason journey. One moment, when Jason started to shot at the harpies my daughter suddenly declared “and now harpies realise they were wrong and they became good and they will have children“.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

One moment, when Jason started to shot at the harpies my daughter suddenly declared “and now harpies realise they were wrong and they became good and they will have children“.

HAHAHA! I love that.

szopen

@JP

France seems to be doing just fine.

But it’s not because native French woman are having children. One could estimate that 1/3 of children born in France are children of immigrants. It’s estimate, since I think there is no official statistics. However, sickle cell anemia is extremely rare among old European population (half of percent for southern european populations), and quite recenlty a data was relased which shown 1/3 of children born in France are now at risk.

Meaning that fertility in France is driven mainly by immigrant woman, which may still not be integrated within western culture. Meaning France is a poor counter-example to “western culture drives fertility down”.

szopen

@A Definite Beta Guy

That Hard Work is the foundation of civilizations.

Yes, but it was alse done by females.

Every drop of water for laundry, cooking, and indoor chamber pots had to be hauled in by the housewife, and wastewater hauled out. The average North Carolina housewife in 1885 had to walk 148 miles per year while carrying 35 tons of water.5 Coal or wood for open-hearth fires had to be carried in and ashes had to be collected and carried out. There was no more important event that liberated women than the invention of running water and indoor plumbing, which happened in urban America between 1890 and 1930.

This was REAL work, and that work HAD TO BE DONE by someone.

Iggles

This was REAL work, and that work HAD TO BE DONE by someone.

+ 1

It rubs me the wrong way to hear women’s contributions to society brushed aside. (i.e., “All they did was birth babies; men did everything else!) While I don’t doubt that men did most of heavy physically tasks, I don’t thing what women brought to the table was insignificant. (And as szopen points out, they also did physical tasks as well)

I think where the disconnect lies is that throughout history women’s influence was greater felt in throughout personal sphere (impacting individuals, such as her husband, children, relatives, and neighbors) while men dominated the public sphere (work, politics, etc). In the 20th century as more women begin working outside the home, they now have a larger impact on the public sphere. However, many believe that only influencing the public sphere counts as important.

Civilizations have risen and fallen many times on this rock. One of the common threads I’ve noticed is family is the glue that holds society together. Without those ties there’s little to tether citizens to looking out for one another and the common good. You can build a civilization, but it’s not likely to sustain itself as the personal sphere weakens..

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

SZopen…”real work”

Owen Young, who grew up on a farm, ran GE from 1922-1939. Ida Tarbell’s biography contains a word-portrait of what Monday–”wash day”–was like for a farm woman in that era: “he drew from his memory a vivid picture of its miseries: the milk coming into the house from the barn; the skimming to be done; the pans and buckets to be washed; the churn waiting attention; the wash boiler on the stove while the wash tub and its back-breaking device, the washboard, stood by; the kitchen full of steam; hungry men at the door anxious to get at the day’s work and one pale, tired, and discouraged woman in the midst of this confusion.”

JP

“Does this surprise you? Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?” or would you feel the same way? What should she do? I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part. She feels that if he cared enough, he would stay in the relationship, and she also points out that he acknowledges his life is better with her in it. I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?”

I sounds like self respect.

He sounds humiliated because of his employment status and the fact that she is successful while he has been thrown onto the industrial scrapheap, where he suspects, and not without reason, that he will stay forever.

If I were in his position, I would simply scrap looking for a job and get a Ph.D. in biostatistics or a medical degree.

Problem solved.

Lokland

@Susan

“Does this surprise you?”

No. Women don’t want to be in relationships with losers. Men don’t want to be in relationships with winners.
“Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?”
No. He probably does like her. Fact is the situation won’t end well. Regardless of how they feel now.

“or would you feel the same way?”

Exactly the same.

“What should she do?”

Quit and work at Starbucks, pray he gets a job or find a new boyfriend.

szopen

@susan

Does this surprise you?

No. I am not saying that all men, or even a majority of men would feel the same as him (or as me). But it seems that there is at least sizeable minority who feel really not comfortable if they do not feel they contribute enough. It may be culturally prescribed, as feminists tend to think, or it may be in genes, I don’t know. At one moment in my life my wife have been earning (I hate English tenses) more than me. It was eating me alive. She said she does not care and that it’s not problem for her, yet I felt like a loser. I started to get additional work hours and side jobs. It was like i was not really grown up, not really a male.

And there could not be done much about that, at least I cannot imagine how could she do anything about it. It was about me, not about her. It was not about lack of love. In fact, the fact that I really care about her only make the case worse. If I wouldn’t care about her and about the relationship, I wouldn’t care about difference in our earnings too.

But again, I don’t know whether I am simply an outlier – i am outlier in so many other areas, so this could be like that also here – and if this guy feels the same as I was feeling. Sure, this could be just pretext for him, it is possibly that he really “was not that much into relationship”. I am waiting for the other guys’ opinion.

Well, if there is some tasks in which he feels really comfortable (fixing things etc, or just moving heavy furniture) she could ask him to do them for her. Or she could just claim she needs to go to some area at dark does not feel safe and maybe he could escort her for a moment. Whatever to make him feel she needs him. I don’t know. This could misfire if she would formulate this n a wrong way (e.g. if she would make it look as it would be something he is expected to do). Again, would love to hear from the other guys first.

Just1Z

@Susan
“I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?”

Yes, you are wise.

He may not be (wise), if they can make it work between them he should kick his BS old style values to the kerb.

I fully believe in people making their own deals. Everywhere from true equality through to patriarchy – whatever you want as long as you are both legal adults of sane mind.

When the pack/herd is crazy, stop listening to it – Go Your Own Way.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1Z

I fully believe in people making their own deals. Everywhere from true equality through to patriarchy – whatever you want as long as you are both legal adults of sane mind.

I agree with this – I’ve been thinking about this re the question of egalitarian marriages vs. those dominated by males (or even by females). In 2012, we can go on about what the majority is doing, and how well, but it doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is if it works for the individuals in question. If you’re a woman who wants to be Taken in Hand, there are plenty of guys who will dig that. If you’re a woman who wants egalitarian, there are many men happy to sign up for that. There are even manginas who will be in LTRs with people like Amanda Marcotte.

I think it’s largely a waste of time to argue about what people should do, or more importantly, should want.

szopen

After a thought, don’t go with my advices. That would be just temporary solutions. After all, how many many times she can ask him to help with heavy furnitures. She could also say “do you want me to quit my job? I care about you more than about the job” but frankly, if he would answer “yes”, I would advise her to dump the guy. At least he would be assured that she does not consider him a looser.

But what do I know, after all.

JP

“ut it seems that there is at least sizeable minority who feel really not comfortable if they do not feel they contribute enough. It may be culturally prescribed, as feminists tend to think, or it may be in genes, I don’t know. At one moment in my life my wife have been earning (I hate English tenses) more than me. It was eating me alive.”

I have the same problem, but it’s completely driven by my competitiveness rather than my need to contribute.

I don’t really have an inborn need to contribute. As my wife would admit, I basically have no skills with respect to interacting with the physical world, including lifting, carrying, repairing. That just wasn’t my thing, growing up. I did books and computers and academics.

I put her in charge of the household repair stuff. She also notes that she knows of no other men quite like me.

I do apparently have an inborn need to win.

Ted D

Susan – “What is the value proposition? Since most men are not in a position to “take care” of a woman in the traditional sense that Mr. Wavevector describes, how do women benefit from male investment?”

Do you have any suggestions? Because honestly I don’t. Unless we can get to a point where we CAN completely redefine society AND biology, what exactly SHOULD men be doing to “add value” to a relationship with a woman that isn’t already expected?

By this I mean, women already expect love, devotion, care, attention, and a whole host of other “lovey dovey” stuff from the men in their lives. (I don’t know what else to call it, but the “emotional” stuff in a relationship.) Problem is, men in general DO NOT see any of that as “adding value” because traditionally men are taught that their “purpose in life” is to make money to support his family. If he isn’t able to be the bread winner, what exactly IS he supposed to excel at? Oh, I can hear the multitude of answers from homemaker to soccar dad, but here is the rub. IF men do this, will women lose attraction for them? Because you see, it is NOT just men who are socialized to expect to be a work horse for their family, but women are also told that men are the workhorse of the family. And, even if that wasn’t the case, if women need a man they can ‘look up to’ and they have high powered careers, what exactly is a man supposed to do to “impress” such a strong and independant woman? Connect with her on an emotional level? Be her domestic god?

It isn’t just that men don’t feel like they have a place, women seem to believe the same in many cases. And in general, men figure if women don’t have a clue what they want from their men, how the hell are the supposed to provide it? And of course, as we’ve outlined already, men
NEED to be needed.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

It isn’t just that men don’t feel like they have a place, women seem to believe the same in many cases. And in general, men figure if women don’t have a clue what they want from their men, how the hell are the supposed to provide it? And of course, as we’ve outlined already, men
NEED to be needed.

I don’t have the answers either. My question was in good faith – obviously the dynamic between the sexes has changed dramatically – the old value proposition no longer applies. To say that men take care of women, so women should let them lead just doesn’t resonate, because that kind of provisioning is unusual today.

For me personally, I would say that my husband and I take care of each other. We’ve figured this out as we’ve gone along, but we’re both happy with what we’re putting in and what we’re getting out. I mentioned that I tend to defer to my husband as a direct result of his being the sole provider for our family. When that is not the case, what is the justification for deference or submission?

Lokland

@Susan

“What is the value proposition? Since most men are not in a position to “take care” of a woman in the traditional sense that Mr. Wavevector describes, how do women benefit from male investment?”

Extending this argument implies that men with enough money should be able to support multiple families.

*I’ll be taking applications. No one over 5′ 4″, 110 pounds and under.
Pics required. No kids. No smokers. No drinkers, No partiers. No sluts.

Jokes.

———–

An analogous situation to the one you presented above is a 21-22 year old male shacking up with a 30 year old female.

At the time they may have equal SMVs and it can all be dandy.
A quick look at reality however reveals that the chance of that actually working long term is 0. (In this case because the male SMV increases.)

In the case you presented, it might be fun for the first few months-years after which its gonna become a daily reminder of how inferior he is to her. Resentment ensues.
The same occurs in the situation I mentioned above. One person becomes inferior, resentment ensues.

INTJ

@ Ted D

And, even if that wasn’t the case, if women need a man they can ‘look up to’ and they have high powered careers, what exactly is a man supposed to do to “impress” such a strong and independant woman? Connect with her on an emotional level? Be her domestic god?

This explains the “chicks dig jerks” thing. The only way to impress such a strong and independent woman is to be an alpha douchebag.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

And, even if that wasn’t the case, if women need a man they can ‘look up to’ and they have high powered careers, what exactly is a man supposed to do to “impress” such a strong and independant woman? Connect with her on an emotional level? Be her domestic god?

“This explains the “chicks dig jerks” thing. The only way to impress such a strong and independent woman is to be an alpha douchebag.”

INTJ, this makes no sense. Once again, let me suggest that data is your friend. The most stable marriages in society today are those between educated individuals who have married assortatively. High status women are clearly happy to mate with men whose status is the same as theirs rather than higher. That is the profile of the marriages in this country with an 83% success rate.

I understand Megaman’s frustration with you, you really do shoot from the hip.

JP

“I think it’s largely a waste of time to argue about what people should do, or more importantly, should want.”

Unless that’s how you make life decisions.

“What should I be doing here? What is the ideal to which I should be aspiring?”

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

“What should I be doing here? What is the ideal to which I should be aspiring?”

Ah, but the problem is that so many are asking “What should everyone else be doing? Why are they not doing it my way? I don’t like being in the minority, I don’t feel dominant or successful. I think society is broken and will destroy itself soon because there aren’t enough people who think like me.”

Lokland

@Susan

“Ah, but the problem is that so many are asking “What should everyone else be doing? Why are they not doing it my way? I don’t like being in the minority, I don’t feel dominant or successful. I think society is broken and will destroy itself soon because there aren’t enough people who think like me.””

This isn’t necessarily true.
If two people recieve the same end result via different means, one got a better deal than the other.

The end result is far less important than the journey it took to get there.

Example,
2 men marry virgins.
One has N of 1. One has N of 10.

Who has better deal?
One with N of 10.

If you allow the unrestricted (and those restricted who take a dalliance or two) continue with their behaviour the value or everyones marriage with a lower N count is decreased.

Not necessarily bad because guys with low N at marriage probably couldn’t do better anyway. Still, its a smack in the face to enjoy life less then have someone else get the same result.

Hey you have an MD. Go work at Starbucks. Hey you have a Bs. in Basket Weaving. Go work at Starbucks.

If society doesn’t segregate the rewards given to different paths then theres no point competing.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

I don’t disagree with you about promiscuity – all of society pays the price for that. I was speaking about the idea that men should rule in relationships. I don’t have a problem with Athol’s Captain/First Officer model – it’s a very useful concept for men whose wives have been Captain for a while…

Mostly I see the relationship dynamic as a personal choice, and I don’t see how one man whose marriage is egalitarian is either better off or worse off than one whose isn’t. Financially speaking, the egalitarian couple is probably better off.

INTJ

@ Susan

INTJ, this makes no sense. Once again, let me suggest that data is your friend. The most stable marriages in society today are those between educated individuals who have married assortatively. High status women are clearly happy to mate with men whose status is the same as theirs rather than higher. That is the profile of the marriages in this country with an 83% success rate.

At what age do they get married? What happens until then? I’d venture that a sizable portion of these women forego relationships altogether, while many of the rest end up with high dominance assholes.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

At what age do they get married? What happens until then? I’d venture that a sizable portion of these women forego relationships altogether, while many of the rest end up with high dominance assholes.

The women we’re discussing are college graduates. They marry at 30, on average. I do not think it’s at all true that a sizable number forego relationships – what do you base that claim on? As for high dominance assholes, I don’t think any women wind up with them. They tend not to marry, and when they do, they tend to cheat and then divorce. So in the educated group, that’s got to be some portion of the 17%, at most.

Just1Z

@Susan
“If you’re a woman who wants to be Taken in Hand, there are plenty of guys who will dig that. If you’re a woman who wants egalitarian, there are many men happy to sign up for that..”

I could do either, or anywhere between. as long as decisions are taken according to reason and competence I don’t much care who makes those decisions (equality), but if ‘you’ want to defer, okay no biggy, I see myself as horse sense equipped (mostly). I’d be happy to let a relationship wander round that map over time, but then I’m a nurturer, I would expect my wimminz to grow.

Amanda and I? nahhh!
well, I just can’t see a future with a pushy feckwit on the grounds of lack of both reason and competence (specifically recognising the real world as opposed to the bizarre, twisted feminist holodeck hell that she infests).

JP

“If you allow the unrestricted (and those restricted who take a dalliance or two) continue with their behaviour the value or everyones marriage with a lower N count is decreased.

Not necessarily bad because guys with low N at marriage probably couldn’t do better anyway. Still, its a smack in the face to enjoy life less then have someone else get the same result.”

I wasn’t trying to get high N.

In fact, I thought that winning involved keeping N at 1 and avoiding any pre-marital sex.

I was going for winning, not pleasure. In fact, my goal in life wasn’t to “enjoy life”.

JP

I’ll admit that I may have a problem with perfectionism.

Ted D

Susan – “I don’t have the answers either. My question was in good faith – obviously the dynamic between the sexes has changed dramatically – the old value proposition no longer applies. To say that men take care of women, so women should let them lead just doesn’t resonate, because that kind of provisioning is unusual today. ”

I wasn’t being snarky and assumed the question was in good faith. (if I came off as cranky, chalk it up to no coffee and Monday morning at client location. I had to wear business casual and drive an hour…)

I think you are correct that each couple needs to suss this out for themselves. The problem is, as individualistic as our society is, we DO NOT in any way I can see teach people to approach relationships in this manner. By and large, there is still a push towards the more traditional roles, and they simply DO NOT apply in the modern West. And, how exactly should a man and woman even attempt this? I mean, should I walk up to an attractive womand say something like “hey, I really like those hot shoes you are wearing. Would you be open to a “taken in hand” relationship?” I exaggerate, but honestly Susan, in this PC world we live in, how is a guy that perhaps wants such a traditional relationship even supposed to figure out which women might be up for it? Other than religious institutions and maybe a few private organizations, I think most men assume ALL women are feminists to some extent, and fear pissing a woman off by asking for another/better deal.

JP – “I was going for winning, not pleasure. In fact, my goal in life wasn’t to “enjoy life”.”

Exactly. To me, happiness is a side benefit of living a good life, NOT the goal of life. The goal is to do what needs to be done, and to do it to the best of your ability. I guess I’ve always seen life as a test from God: to prove you can make it through in one piece. I suppose that means even God makes men jump through hoops.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

in this PC world we live in, how is a guy that perhaps wants such a traditional relationship even supposed to figure out which women might be up for it? Other than religious institutions and maybe a few private organizations, I think most men assume ALL women are feminists to some extent, and fear pissing a woman off by asking for another/better deal.

Yes, this is a problem if the number of men able and willing to provide in the traditional sense who want leadership in return is larger than the number of women willing to make that deal. Religious communities do seem like the best bet, but perhaps that works because it does seem like a high percentage of men complaining about this are religious, at least online.

Whatever the case, it is what it is. There is no way in which you can boss women back into bare feet. Some of us may choose it, that’s the best men are going to get.

Just1Z

I only have one fault JP, my modesty

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@SW

Once again, let me suggest that data is your friend.

It’s only his friend if it reinforces his predetermined and quite negative opinions of college women. Arguing that “the methodology is wrong” is just a silly pretense. This is an example of a conclusion in search of a factual basis. Ironically, following his own example, you’d be justified in flushing anything he presents down the toilet, for no good reason!

Lokland

@JP

“I was going for winning, not pleasure. In fact, my goal in life wasn’t to “enjoy life”.”

Thats my point.
If two people are able to win but one receives a disproportionately large amount of pleasure (or lack thereof) then theres something wrong with the society that is allowing one of those two to win.

You can label as either high or low N people are the winners but to say they both deserve equal things is ridiculous. You could even switch it up by sex.

Lokland

@Susan

We were considering totally different things.
Didn’t realize the context.

Your correct.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@I??J

At what age do they get married? What happens until then? I’d venture that a sizable portion of these women forego relationships altogether, while many of the rest end up with high dominance assholes.

Without evidence, you’re just venturing into BS land, yet again. Why don’t you do some research of your own for a change?

For an admitted atheist and Thomas Paine admirer, you have a real knee-jerk, quasi-religious attitude towards facts you don’t like. I don’t see much reason at work here…

Ted D

“At what age do they get married? What happens until then? I’d venture that a sizable portion of these women forego relationships altogether, while many of the rest end up with high dominance assholes.”

FWIW this is almost exactly what I figured INTJ was getting at with his comment. Sure, college educated women do tend to stay married once they tie the knot, but what are they doing with themselves in the years prior? We know that for many its going to be at least 5 years, and for many a decade or more? So, until they find “Mr. Beta Right” who are they sexing up? Jerks? Cads? Players? Asshats? Seems these guys do manage to get at least a few hits a year… Or, are they spending 4-6 years with a guy they have NO INTENTION to marry someday? Because I’m starting to get the picture that:
1. A small percentage of women are truly sexxing up cads, either by choice or lack of experience with men.
2. A decent sized portion do seem to get into relationships, but those relationships are not based on an intent to marry, and instead seem to be either “comfort” relationships or simply something to tide them over until they are “ready” to get married.
3. some number (small to medium?) of women that just sit out because they either can’t generate any interest from men at all, or can’t generate interest from men THEY deem worthy.

Seems that the bigger issue may be with the “average” young woman working the serial monogomy tract, since I’d wager they are a larger group than either the fully “unrestricted” bunch or the totally left on the sidelines group. I’ll admit that IF indeed it is only 20% of women sexxing up cads, then they can’t be the primary issue. So, who is left? The women sitting out? Yeah, in some cases if they are simply being too choosy, or more to the point overestimating their actual market value. But I still wager the largest “group” of women fall into catagory 2 above. And, that means that perhaps some of the ‘sphere is right, serial monogomy is just as bad if not MORE disruptive than straight out promiscuity.

I’m not pointing fingers, I’m interested on everyone’s take.

Ted D

Susan – “Whatever the case, it is what it is. There is no way in which you can boss women back into bare feet. Some of us may choose it, that’s the best men are going to get.”

LOL. You crack me up with the “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen” schtik. Tell me honestly, how many men do you know that feel this way? How many here at HUS do you think feel this way? I probably know a small handfull at best, and they are older “red neck” boys from the boonies of Western PA and Ohio. Guys don’t want their wives barefoot and pregnant by and large. They simply want a woman that looks up to him, respects him, loves him, lusts for him, and takes care of him. Most men I know have NO PROBLEM with women working, until it comes to him or them, and at that point I think men AND women tend to defend their needs over the needs of others.

So, although I appriciate the immagery you paint, do you really think it is an honest attempt at dialogue to continue perpetuating the myth that most men want wives to lose the vote, lose the right to work, and lose all personal freedoms. I get that the ‘sphere is full of such guys, but I’d wager that if you could round up every man alive that has found the Red Pill, the men that want to take away sufferage would STILL be the minority. We don’t want to push women down, we’d simply like to know exactly how we can once again stand next to them, and in the interests of fostering good marriages, perhaps stand just a smidge above a few, so we have a shot at getting some admiration from them.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

They simply want a woman that looks up to him, respects him, loves him, lusts for him, and takes care of him.

If that’s true, then I don’t think we have a problem, because I believe most women want to give that. Not at 21, it’s true, but eventually. I’m not questioning that, I’m questioning whether most women are willing to sign up for the Male Leads, Female Follows shtick.

jrd

INTJ: Is it common amongst whites to leave the bathroom door open?

No.

JP

“I don’t disagree with you about promiscuity – all of society pays the price for that.”

I think that one of the issues here is that for some people serial monogamy = promiscuity.

So, there’s probably a promiscuity semantics issue here.

J

I don’t think its gonna be some kinda catastrophic fall, just the loss of economic superiority resulting in relatively poor living conditions and life quality (which in comparison to cave men, will still be golden).

It depends on how far the fall is. I’ve spent some time in both Israel and Italy. There was less material wealth, but in some ways the quality of life was higher. Oddly, even Israelis seemed less stressed tha Americans. There’s less anomie in those countries. People seem more connected.

Just1Z

@Megaman
“@I??J”

hmmm, that’s a particularly nerdy joke that you are making there. so, what ‘sign’ are you? *lmao*

can’t you two just grab a couple of beers and chill?

Hell, I was getting on ‘okay’ with PJ the other day…anything is possible

Escoffier

One possibility of a return to more traditional roles for women, and more traditional (and larger) family structures generally, is that if/when the welfare state collapses under its own weight (which seems likely), first we will have a period of significant pain in which it will be observable by everyone that the single & childless with little to no extended family are suffering the most. People will in effect return to their innate clannish instinct. With no state to protect/provide for them, it’s back to relatives banding together to protect their mutual interests. Those without a lot of relatives will be at a real disadvantage.

What will then happen, probably, is that more and more people will get married earlier, stay together more steadfastly, and have more kids.

In many ways this will be “progress” but in others “regress.”

This observation is not original to me.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

if/when the welfare state collapses under its own weight (which seems likely), first we will have a period of significant pain in which it will be observable by everyone that the single & childless with little to no extended family are suffering the most. People will in effect return to their innate clannish instinct. With no state to protect/provide for them, it’s back to relatives banding together to protect their mutual interests.

Yes, this scenario seems plausible. What timeline to you see for this?

Escoffier

J, Italy definitely, but Israel??? That’s a crazy high-stress country if you ask me. People there are very tightly wound. Gee, I wonder why …

JP

The end of the U.S. as Great Power hegemon (which is the decision that will hit in 15-20 years) is not the same thing as the end of the welfare state.

The welfare state is with us as long as there is cheap energy and the current culture remains in place (which is an engineering question).

BroHamlet

@Susan

Just started looking back over things here- gotta say, that this whole concept of “men need to be NEEDED” that everyone keeps bringing up, is lost on me. Maybe it’s just the way I am, but to me, saying that men need a woman to do things for is a bit infantilizing, and I know that was not your intent. It seems to imply that men have no compass, and less drive or aspiration without the company of a woman. Personally, I don’t believe that at all, I believe the opposite. When not coupled up, not comfortably provided for (i.e. in the hunt), is often when men are at their best as far as their desire to achieve and overcome. Being on your own keeps you hungry and focused. In any case, if you are not complete in the most fundamental ways (think purpose, not food, sex or sleep), how is a woman supposed to fill that void? No person can. One thing I have found to be true, is that those who achieve will do so regardless of who or what is or is not in their life. This is especially true of men- because men draw less of their personal identity and drive from outside influences than women do (and too many men don’t realize this, using external prods and society’s rewards to push them forward, rather than letting their instincts guide them).

The way I would characterize the relationship between a man and a woman with regards to need is something like this: I don’t NEED to be needed, the only thing I really need in this life is to fulfill my purpose in as many ways as possible- this may or may not involve a wife, or a child, or even a girlfriend for that matter. A woman is welcome to share my journey with me, but she will not become the focal point or the destination of that journey, and she needs to understand that. I will share what I have with her, and support her in setting her compass and fulfilling her own purpose, not because I need to do so, but because I believe that is the way life should be lived.

I do appreciate what you are saying with your blog post, but I think it needs to be more realistic with regards to how men who are attuned to what they really want out of life live and relate to women. Presumably, the women who read your blog want a man who truly self-defines, for obvious reasons, and I’m telling you that such a man does not need a woman to do things for, in order for his life and pursuits to be satisfying. A woman can help him on his journey (and he can help her on hers), but like I said, the type of man your readers want will decide who and what he is, and will win regardless of who’s on his team.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@BroHamlet

Maybe it’s just the way I am, but to me, saying that men need a woman to do things for is a bit infantilizing, and I know that was not your intent.

Just to be clear, I have no intent, I was sharing the insights of John Gray. However, this claim is not new to me. For example, I have read in many different places that when men do generous things for women, they like the women more. The mere act of giving makes men more emotionally invested. Several men here agree, but perhaps this varies by individual.

A woman is welcome to share my journey with me, but she will not become the focal point or the destination of that journey, and she needs to understand that.

I know there is much individual variation here. I know, for example, that my husband identified wife and family as a key part of his life’s purpose long before he met me. We discussed this on our third date. I do not believe that is unusual, and from a female POV, it’s a very positive green flag. It doesn’t mean that the woman is the objective of the journey, but many men are certain that they want female companionship on the journey.

Escoffier

We already can’t pay for the welfare state and it’s far, far from a foregone conclusion that A) we will extract all the new energy we’ve found, since there are large and powerful forces that don’t want to and who, not incidentally, for now have the upper hand and B) even if we did, there’s no guarantee the resulting wealth/revenue could pay for anything like the current welfare state.

Ted D

Susan – “I’m not questioning that, I’m questioning whether most women are willing to sign up for the Male Leads, Female Follows shtick.”

Well here is the rub. IMO what I outlined IS a relationship with a male lead and a female follow. Here is my quote:
“They simply want a woman that looks up to him, respects him, loves him, lusts for him, and takes care of him.”

“looks up to him” – pretty much means she thinks HE is higher up the food chain.
“Respects him” – IMO respect from a woman is deeply entwined with subordination, to some extent. That is, if my wife “respects” me, then I assume she will defer to me when push comes to shove. The level of defferment probably varies a great deal from man to man, but I think most have some element of this.
And the rest? Well Love/Lust should hopefully be tied together, although we can all find personal examples in our lives of couples where one or the other is there, but not both.
“takes care of” – that one is a wildcard I’ll admit. Every guy I know has some individual idea of what “care” constitutes in a relationship, and this is where negotiation between the couple is necessary.

So the thing you are missing is, for many men, “respect” and “admiration” come partly from a woman’s submissive approach to his leadership. It is her defferance to his leadership that SHOWS she respects and admires him.

How many women are up for that? Basically I’m more than willing to treat my wife pretty closely to being an “equal partner”, provided the underlying aggreement is we are equal in everything until I see an issue, and then I am the tie breaker by default. I’ll help with house chores, I’ll take care of the house and car maintenance, I’ll help cook. I’ll share every dime I make and allow her to choose how that money is spent WITH me. But, when it comes down to brass tacks, we both agree that if it ever comes down to it, its my way or the highway. If we both do our part, it should never, EVER come down to that, because we SHOULD be working together so that these situations don’t occur. But the underlying message is “our relationship appears to be egalitarian because I allow it to be so. I like making you happy, and it makes you happy to feel like you have an equal stake in our relationship. But you should always understand that this situation is my choosing, because I love you and want you to be happy. Take that incentive away from me, and expect to face a completely different situation.”

And, I realize that at 21, a woman may not be ready to marry tomorrow. However, I’d say that IF she ever wants to marry, she should be steering her life in that direction far before she turns 21.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

So the thing you are missing is, for many men, “respect” and “admiration” come partly from a woman’s submissive approach to his leadership. It is her defferance to his leadership that SHOWS she respects and admires him.

But I know for a fact that my husbands respects and admires me. Yet that is not deference to leadership, it is appreciation for my efforts and the qualities that make me a good partner. I don’t see how either quality requires submissiveness.

Escoffier

Bro, well, personally, if not coupled up, it’s very doubtful I would be where I am today. Not saying I would be unhappy but I probably would not have achieved what I have achieved.

Ted D

BroHamlet – “Maybe it’s just the way I am, but to me, saying that men need a woman to do things for is a bit infantilizing, and I know that was not your intent. It seems to imply that men have no compass, and less drive or aspiration without the company of a woman. Personally, I don’t believe that at all, I believe the opposite. When not coupled up, not comfortably provided for (i.e. in the hunt), is often when men are at their best as far as their desire to achieve and overcome. Being on your own keeps you hungry and focused. ”

I’d say that is how you are. Me? If I didn’t have a wife and kids to support, I would likely live WAY below the level I do now. I wouldn’t need a 5 bedroom house and two cars. I wouldn’t need multiple TVs, computers, and high speed internet. My electric costs would be nil as would my heating, because I could be content living in an efficiency apartment. In short, the reason I strive to “do better” is for them, not myself. Without a family to support, I may very well have spent my entire life as a starving musician. Perhaps I would have been happier, and rest assured I’ve spent many nights contemplating that. But, it would have been worse for society, because without a family to support, I would NOT have become a productive member of society. Because frankly, I don’t give a shit about “society” because they don’t give a shit about me.

J

No, the general understanding of hypergamy is that the woman marries a man of superior social status – superior to her own status, specifically.

I can get behind the idea that many women will try to get the highest status man they can get and that “marrying the prince” is a common fantasy. Nonetheless, the reality is that most people marry within their own social class. Cinderella stories are rare and tend not to work out. A rich man is far morre likely to pump and dump a poor girl than he is to marry her. Even where there is upward mobility, it tends to be two lower SES people making that climb together.

Damien Vulaume

@Szopen: “I would break up with her, no matter how much I loved her.”
Please explain.

@Susan: “He also said that he cannot possibly be responsible for another person’s happiness right now (…) He promised that if he gets a job, she will be the first person he calls.”

Based on what we have here, it’s clear that she loves him for who he is as a person, and not for WHAT he is, since she met him when he was already down on his luck.
In an era where money is put above everything else by many many people,
I would consider it a precious gift, the most precious, to have a woman like that standing by my side if I were in this man’s situation. Also, I find it strange that he says he “cannot possibly be responsible for another person’s happiness right now”. Well, that’s already happening, isn’t it? Since he brings her happiness by just being the way he is with her. I don’t see how his current employment status is related to it. All this is more about his wounded pride.
What should she do? I don’t think anyone could give her any useful advice right now. I also doubt she is going to let go of him easily.

Having said all this, it would have been interseting to hear his side of the story. He might have told a different tale… Besides, 6 months is still a fairly short time in a relationship, so there might be lots of other untold factors involved.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

Based on what we have here, it’s clear that she loves him for who he is as a person, and not for WHAT he is, since she met him when he was already down on his luck.
In an era where money is put above everything else by many many people,
I would consider it a precious gift, the most precious, to have a woman like that standing by my side if I were in this man’s situation.

Yes, I wondered about this too. Perhaps he feels that he is not worthy without employment, or that he has no hope of holding on to her long-term unless his career gets back on track. The truth is, this woman is not going to marry a guy who is down on his luck. The worst case is a sort of Blue Valentine future – very risky for her

Having said all this, it would have been interseting to hear his side of the story. He might have told a different tale… Besides, 6 months is still a fairly short time in a relationship, so there might be lots of other untold factors involved.

True! It’s always hard to know the truth when one only has one side of the story. It would be great to get two people in a relationship to each tell me their side and I could run that as a post.

JP

@J:

“It depends on how far the fall is. I’ve spent some time in both Israel and Italy. There was less material wealth, but in some ways the quality of life was higher. Oddly, even Israelis seemed less stressed tha Americans. There’s less anomie in those countries. People seem more connected.”

The U.S. is excellent at producing anomie.

I think I’ve been in a permanent state of anomie since high school.

INTJ

@ Just1Z

can’t you two just grab a couple of beers and chill?

Believe me, I’ve tried. Unfortunately, there’s something in me that compels me to respond in kind to repeated ad homs.

Ted D

J – “I can get behind the idea that many women will try to get the highest status man they can get and that “marrying the prince” is a common fantasy. Nonetheless, the reality is that most people marry within their own social class”

Well the thing is, hypergamy probably doen’st cause too many problems for Cinderella. After all, her man is pretty high up the ladder compared to her. Now, how about Jane Doe and her husband John? They are both from the same SES, and both work. WHen they marry they are pretty close in SMV, but over time they begin to separate for any number of reasons. Lets just say John gets laid off and can’t find work. Two years later, Jane files for divorce and ends up with Tim Brown, who years ago when she married was possibly below her threshold, but now that he has a VP position at a small company, he looks stellar next to her loser husband without a job.

IMO that situation is driven by hypergamy. She bailed on her husband because she saw him as beneath her, and found herself a man with a higher rank than her, based on what her rank is today. (not what it was when John and Jane married.) So tell me, how is a man supposed to ensure that he can keep up in this financial climate?

Yes, this example is extreme and devoid a lot of useful details. but as an example, I think it works to present the concept.

INTJ

@ Susan

The women we’re discussing are college graduates. They marry at 30, on average. I do not think it’s at all true that a sizable number forego relationships – what do you base that claim on? As for high dominance assholes, I don’t think any women wind up with them. They tend not to marry, and when they do, they tend to cheat and then divorce. So in the educated group, that’s got to be some portion of the 17%, at most.

I don’t think I’m communicating very clearly. See Ted D’s post to see what I was talking about.

J

SW: The way a man knows that a woman considers him “up” is that she is receptive to his interest and potential commitment.

Wave: Here we see the status of the man being defined exclusively by the emotional state of the woman, rather than any characteristic of his or any thing she might do for him. It is this self centered worldview that I correctly describe as solipsistic.

Of course it’s “solipsistic.” By describing what any individual considers, one is by definition describing that person’s individual, internal world. What sdoes that have to say about Susan?

I could say that John considers Mary’s tats hot. That has noting to do with her “objective hotness,” which may or may not even exist. The only real information in that statement is the John likes Mary’s tats.

INTJ

@ Ted D

LOL. You crack me up with the “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen” schtik. Tell me honestly, how many men do you know that feel this way? How many here at HUS do you think feel this way? I probably know a small handfull at best, and they are older “red neck” boys from the boonies of Western PA and Ohio. Guys don’t want their wives barefoot and pregnant by and large. They simply want a woman that looks up to him, respects him, loves him, lusts for him, and takes care of him. Most men I know have NO PROBLEM with women working, until it comes to him or them, and at that point I think men AND women tend to defend their needs over the needs of others.

So, although I appriciate the immagery you paint, do you really think it is an honest attempt at dialogue to continue perpetuating the myth that most men want wives to lose the vote, lose the right to work, and lose all personal freedoms. I get that the ‘sphere is full of such guys, but I’d wager that if you could round up every man alive that has found the Red Pill, the men that want to take away sufferage would STILL be the minority. We don’t want to push women down, we’d simply like to know exactly how we can once again stand next to them, and in the interests of fostering good marriages, perhaps stand just a smidge above a few, so we have a shot at getting some admiration from them.

Yup. I’m getting tired of this whole “barefoot and pregnant” thing, because frankly, it’s a knee-jerk straw-man not unlike feminist rhetoric.

I want some traditional things such as having relationships with the intent to settle down and marry, putting family ahead of career, and having kids before the risk of infertility and birth disorders goes up. But the thing is that I don’t expect anything from my wife that I’m not willing to do myself, aside from being a baby incubator which unfortunately I’m physically not equipped to do.

INTJ

@ Ted D

They simply want a woman that looks up to him, respects him, loves him, lusts for him, and takes care of him.

Had to pull this out specifically. What guys want is someone who pedestalizes them. No double standard there, given that the whole problem with guys is that they tend to pedestalize women.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

What guys want is someone who pedestalizes them. No double standard there, given that the whole problem with guys is that they tend to pedestalize women.

It is true that men want to be pedestalized and women don’t. I think there’s a huge spectrum between pedestalization and total submission.

JP

“Whoops. Bold fail. I just meant to bold “a woman considers” and “what any individual considers.” Susan, can you fix that?”

This is why I use little * thingies.

Just1Z

@Intj
“Believe me, I’ve tried. Unfortunately, there’s something in me that compels me to respond in kind to repeated ad homs.”

well, I have had my hiccups too…so no moralising from me. I just thought that beer might help. in fact, since it’s pitch black here, I’m opening a Hobgoblin* as I write

*Hobgoblin is a beer, not an ugly woman, nor is ‘opening a Hobgoblin’ a perverted sexual practice of any kind. promise

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’m opening a Hobgoblin* as I write

*Hobgoblin is a beer, not an ugly woman, nor is ‘opening a Hobgoblin’ a perverted sexual practice of any kind

LMAO

Escoffier

God, what drivel:

http://www.mydailymoment.com/Mind-Body/the-pros-and-cons-of-one-night-stands/Print.html

Note what’s not on the list of “cons”: as your N rises, men’s interest in anything more than a quick bang declines.

I also like “don’t feel guity.” Yeah, because we all know that feelings are easily controlled!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

I just read that post on the pros and cons of ONSs. Note the difference of the scale of risks vs. rewards:

Cons:

disease
depression
rejection due to unrequited attachment

Pros:

Ego boost
Liberation of “having sex like a man”
Unusual sex positions
Practice for LTRs

Which of these is likely to have the longest lasting effects?

Ted D

INTJ – I think you hit the nail on the head. I am not asking for much from a wife I am not willing to do myself, however the concessions I am willing to make are somewhat different than the concessions I need from a mate. I see it as an equitable trade. But as women become more self sufficient, they are less likely to like my concessions, or even make any at all. So the relationship is either off balance, or no one gives an inch and it fails regardless. To me the problem is if men and women are equal on too many levels, there is little room to compromise and less incentive to do so to foster a successful relationship.

Lisa C

@Damian “Based on what we have here, it’s clear that she loves him for who he is as a person, and not for WHAT he is, since she met him when he was already down on his luck. In an era where money is put above everything else by many many people, I would consider it a precious gift, the most precious, to have a woman like that standing by my side if I were in this man’s situation.”

+1

@Susan “I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part.”

A successful marriage requires the desire and ability to stay together through “bad circumstances” such as unemployment, illness, or death of a parent or child. IMO, a man who ends a relationship under the circumstances described is not a good bet if he comes around later asking for round two. What happens if the next job doesn’t work out?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lisa C

I think it would be different if they started out on equal footing, and then he lost his job once they were committed. In this case, I think he started out not wanting anything serious because of his situation, but then he fell for her anyway. When they had a conversation about their relationship, he told her that he would keep doing his best to hold her at arm’s length as long as he was unemployed. She could see no way to proceed under such an artificial structure, and had no interest in dialing the relationship back to casual. Also, he now feels that he must move wherever a job offer occurs, so he doesn’t feel geographically stable either. It’s a bad situation. I know she is brokenhearted, I don’t know about him.

HanSolo

@BroHamlet

I think you describe men with a strong sense of purpose accurately, the achievers. However, I don’t think most men have a strong sense of internal ambition (most probably have some and a good deal have little) and do need to feel needed by women or, to a lesser extent by their larger family or society, in order to have the desire to strive more towards achieving goals.

I’ll even give myself as an example. I think I’ve been a fairly high achiever. However, there came a time where I decided to take a couple years off to travel the world and learn Portuguese and read. This is achievement in a personal sense but not in a career sense really. If I were married I would definitely be much more ambitious career-wise.

Tasmin

@Susan
“Does this surprise you? Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?” or would you feel the same way?”

I have been in this situation and I know a handful of ‘transitioning’ men in this spot as well. The process can be long and frustrating and there are some significant impacts to confidence, identity, status and of course the lifestyle changes due to the new economic outlook – which has far reaching implications in terms of provisioning and both the present and future partnership dynamic.

I have felt the same way. For me it came down to: self-respect/confidence, trust, and the ability to be generative.

Trust & Self-respect – confidence. It can be extremely difficult to open up to someone fully when we don’t have our own foundation and our place in the world is ambiguous and/or we are not progressing. This is particularly troubling for men w/o naturally high (or recently shattered) confidence or a very clear sense of purpose and then drive toward that end, which is to say, a great many men these days. There are enough women who want, and always have, a fully baked man with status, earning potential, etc. to remind us of where we stand in the bigger sense.

IOW, we don’t just consider our partner’s view of us, we need to feel like our value is not singularly in the eye of the beholder – particularly when we are struggling to find, hold onto our own sense of value. We need a broader sense of respect – from other men, from societal expectations, and most importantly from ourselves. We can eventually break from those external excitations and the more ego-centric things, but not until we have somehow solidified that sense of higher purpose or deep expertise or recognition from new sources – often inclusive of an economic model that we can accept.

Trust. If a man does not feel powerful in his world in terms of control over his own life and progression in his field, and subsequently his identity, he will have a harder time trusting both his feelings toward her and the relationship in a long-term sense as well as trusting her feelings for him.

We might feel like her feelings are conditional or have a time limit. This can create a lot of pressure – pressure that we are already piling on ourselves to be “something”. We might feel like there is potential for resentment from her due to our lacking status or progress or competitive success or the level of our drive, desire, aggression, etc. that we are able to generate. There is a real fear that she will “tire” of our process of our “moping” our depression and we will become less attractive in light of the continuing chasm between the men of higher (temporary or not) status at work and the society that she is anchored to but we are not.

There is also the stewing concern that our progress may lead us in a direction that she will not be “ok” with – a more permanent shift in identity. To navigate all of that requires a higher-than-normal level of trust. Many marriages, where arguably trust has been defined and time-tested, do not survive the displaced-man situation.

And finally, being generative. I think men must be productive in some way to be happy. The breadth of productivity is great, so there are many ways to achieve this – but still, we must feel that we are producing something. There is the practical sense in terms of our careers but there is also the (ideal) feeling that we have so much to give that we need to be with someone else in order to fully realize our ability to share these things. However if we feel that we are not producing excess energy to share, not filling up our own cup until it is spilling over, then we are net takers, we are not elevating ourselves to the leadership role, the giving, providing, supporting father-figure we all carry around. Until we re-enter this state, we are essentially on emotional welfare, lowering our head as we cash those checks.

“What should she do? I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part.”

She should treat it as the split that it is. No contact going forward. She may very well hold on due to the circumstances but she should treat the relationship as if it were over for any other reason and maintain the distance. It will be a big problem – probably for both of them, if they try to maintain any kind of friendship or contact going forward. Move on. He made his decision, the reasons may never be known, but the action is definitive. Those circumstances may never change or may change but not actually influence his feelings on the relationship. And if he changes and them comes back around it is likely she will then feel resentment about him leaving and have her own reasons for distrust. You never know. But he broke off to progress in his way, she needs to continue to progress in hers.

“She feels that if he cared enough, he would stay in the relationship, and she also points out that he acknowledges his life is better with her in it. I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?”

Yep. He probably does feel he is better with her. He probably extracts a great deal of happiness from the relationship. That is great but also part of the problem: too much of his happiness and identity are from the relationship. This makes it very difficult to maintain self-worth. It seems counter-intuitive, but the relationship can feed into a downward spiral of feeling poorly about himself. It really, really hurts to be in that spot and sometimes cut-and-run is the only way to find relief from the sense that he is continually letting her down and that he is taking without giving. It is sad and perhaps ironic that a man in this spot often exercises the only real power he feels he has in the world – to scuttle the relationship.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Tasmin

Brilliant as always. The choicest nuggets, IMO:

IOW, we don’t just consider our partner’s view of us, we need to feel like our value is not singularly in the eye of the beholder – particularly when we are struggling to find, hold onto our own sense of value. We need a broader sense of respect – from other men, from societal expectations, and most importantly from ourselves.

This explains why her love is not “enough.” It gives him something, but not that broad sense of respect.

There is a real fear that she will “tire” of our process of our “moping” our depression and we will become less attractive in light of the continuing chasm between the men of higher (temporary or not) status at work and the society that she is anchored to but we are not.

I wondered about this too. He has not indicated any of this directly – I gather this man is not of the emo variety – but she has said that she feels extremely awkward that she is currently more successful than he is in the same industry. She wishes that her job were not so directly comparable to his old one.

However if we feel that we are not producing excess energy to share, not filling up our own cup until it is spilling over, then we are net takers, we are not elevating ourselves to the leadership role, the giving, providing, supporting father-figure we all carry around. Until we re-enter this state, we are essentially on emotional welfare, lowering our head as we cash those checks.

This breaks my heart! I know that when they broke up she said that she believed in him, and he said that he did not share that feeling, so he could not accept it from her.

It is sad and perhaps ironic that a man in this spot often exercises the only real power he feels he has in the world – to scuttle the relationship.

Sigh. I’m going to forward all of the good feedback from men here to her. I get why she is sad, it feels like a waste. Terrible timing.

INTJ

@ Just1Z

“@I??J”

hmmm, that’s a particularly nerdy joke that you are making there. so, what ‘sign’ are you? *lmao*

It doesn’t make any sense though. I’m clearly an iNtuitive, because Sensors are much more data-oriented and they value statistics a lot more than I do. So he could call me an INFJ, but that would make no sense either, since INFJs don’t make abstract generalizations like I do (which Megaman hates) – they make personal generalizations.

INTJ

@ Just1Z

well, I have had my hiccups too…so no moralising from me. I just thought that beer might help. in fact, since it’s pitch black here, I’m opening a Hobgoblin* as I write

I don’t drink… And if I did, I’d probably become like PJ without her meds.

*Hobgoblin is a beer, not an ugly woman, nor is ‘opening a Hobgoblin’ a perverted sexual practice of any kind. promise

Sure it is.

J

You could also settle down in some remote village in Corsica or Sicily, and date a young woman there…You’d love her upbringing.

LOL. Have you visited a Sicilian mountain village in the last 35 years? I have. Appolonia Corleone types haven’t existed there in decades, though a cautious man would still fear her brother or father.

@Hope #272

Brilliant analysis of the economic situation. IMO, Romney’s 47% comment is what lost him the election.

@JP

You are unhappy that the West (Faustian civilization) is ending. Which is fine, but you can’t fix it because it’s not really fixable in the way that you want to fix it. You are going to need to find what’s in the future. You’re looking to the past.

That’s typical of the ‘sphere. There’s this sense that if women all go back to vacuuming in pearls like June Cleaver all the social, technological and economic forces that have spawned the social changes (including feminism, ironically) of the last 150 years will just go away. There’s no sense that new forms of relating will have to evolve, just the idea that if we could somehow go back to 1950–when the biggest and most anomalous economic boom in history was in full force– things would be fine.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

There’s no sense that new forms of relating will have to evolve, just the idea that if we could somehow go back to 1950–when the biggest and most anomalous economic boom in history was in full force– things would be fine.

Yes, this is what I meant by the bare feet comment. I guess I should have said vacuuming in high heels instead. In any case, the future belongs to those looking forward – the innovators. There may be a period ahead like Escoffier describes – a sort of Dark Ages where we go back to survival mode. We’re throwing darts, we won’t be around to see it.

JP

“Yes, this scenario seems plausible. What timeline to you see for this?”

This really is tied into cheap energy.

The status quo will try to maintain itself until it literally can’t anymore.

I’ve been trying to generally timeline this thing for years, but I don’t really have the projections I need to do it.

There may be some erosion in this direction starting now, but I can’t really tell.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=40366

J

As Just1Z pointed out, Hairy Christmas seems to be clogging up the comment threads. Perhaps another PJ ban is in order?

I’m not pro-banning.

I used to feel that every post addressed to me or related to something that I’d said deserved a response from me. There are now 3 or 4 people whom I no longer read and to whom I no longer respond. If someone strikes you as crackerbox, ignore them. In fact, if we all did that, the trolls would eventaully tire and go away.

HanSolo

@Susan

Some men do have a strong sense of their identity tied into their job and ability to provide financially and so, like the man you cited breaking up with the woman he loved, some are left miserable by the simple fact of not achieving as much career success as they think they need to. It’s such a part of their personal measure of worth and success that they will feel like failures. Both he and the woman can try to make him feel worth in other areas and shift his self-worth metrics to other areas and it can be successful if he is capable of that and willing to try.

Other men don’t feel such a strong sense of worth based on their provider ability. Other areas are being a protector, lover, source of wisdom, soulmate, friend, and having some other valuable ability like making her laugh or having talent in some area that usually doesn’t provide financial reward.

I am an example of someone that could be happy with a higher earning woman as long as she isn’t being an arrogant bitch about that fact. I draw more of my personal sense of worth in a relationship in providing deep love, romance, great sex, wisdom, friendship, humor, and connection. Also, I will be a great father when the time comes for children. I will be a good provider but that’s not what my relationship identity is based on. Also, since I achieved success as a scientist, and, to a lesser extent, as a business consultant and in other areas in the past I have those things to look back on as well.

JP

What’s this pedestalization thingy, in psychological words that I can understand?

What’s involved here?

Just1Z

I keep seeing this ‘age of the man, increased risk of genetic problems’ line being shot out, but what risk rate are we talking about?

I mean you could multiply my risk of getting hit by a meteorite by two and I would not change my behaviour, even if you multiplied by a thousand. load two chambers in a revolver rather than one? (i.e. double the risk) I didn’t want to play in the first place, but I’m a lot less keen now.

multiplying the risk matters, but so does the risk being multiplied – well, duh!

In a meta-analysis published online in November 2010 Christina Hultman, an epidemiologist at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, found that men between the ages of 40 and 49 were 1.4 times more likely to have children with a diagnosis of autism than 15- to 29-year-old men—the reference group for this study. And the risk of autism increased dramatically with the father’s age: Between the 50 and 54, men were 2.2 times more likely to have children with a diagnosis of autism compared with the reference group; for men aged 55 and above, comparative risk was 4.4 times greater than the control.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=children-with-older-dads-at-greater-mental-illness-risk&page=2

this smells of a feminist line of BS for use as a reply to menopause in women. there’s no like for like comparison between menopause and disability. stop believing what feminists say unthinkingly – they lie, like a flatfish.

140% of the risk of Autism if the Dad is in his 40s. this is a skyrocketing change guaranteed to produced genetically damaged kids? ORLY?

But…140% of what?

Americas

[edit] Canada

The rate of autism diagnoses in Canada was 1 in 450 in 2003. However, preliminary results of an epidemiological study conducted at Montreal Children’s Hospital in the 2003-2004 school year found a prevalence rate of 0.68% (or 1 per 147).[36]

A 2001 review of the medical research conducted by the Public Health Agency of Canada concluded that there was no link between MMR vaccine and either inflammatory bowel disease or autism.[37] The review noted, “An increase in cases of autism was noted by year of birth from 1979 to 1992; however, no incremental increase in cases was observed after the introduction of MMR vaccination.” [37] After the introduction of MMR, “A time trend analysis found no correlation between prevalence of MMR vaccination and the incidence of autism in each birth cohort from 1988 to 1993.”[37]

[edit] United States

The most recent estimate states that up to 1 out of every 88 children, or 11.3 per 1,000, have some form of ASD.[38] The number of diagnosed cases of autism grew dramatically in the U.S. in the 1990s and early 2000s. For the 2006 surveillance year, identified ASD cases were an estimated 9.0 per 1000 children aged 8 years (95% confidence interval [CI] = 8.6–9.3).[20] These numbers measure what is sometimes called “administrative prevalence”, that is, the number of known cases per unit of population, as opposed to the true number of cases.[28] This prevalence estimate rose 57% (95% CI 27%–95%) from 2002 to 2006.[20] A further study in 2006 concluded that the apparent rise in administrative prevalence was the result of diagnostic substitution, mostly for findings of mental retardation and learning disabilities.[28] “Many of the children now being counted in the autism category would probably have been counted in the mental retardation or learning disabilities categories if they were being labelled 10 years ago instead of today,” said researcher Paul Shattuck of the Waisman Center at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, in a statement.[39]

so another good point is made – changes in rates of diagnosis vs increasing age of fathers. let’s not be assuming that increasing rates of diagnosis is explained by increasing age of parents, that would be dumb, wouldn’t it?

A population-based study of one Minnesota county found that the cumulative incidence of autism grew eightfold from the 1980–83 period to the 1995–97 period. The increase occurred after the introduction of broader, more-precise diagnostic criteria, increased service availability, and increased awareness of autism.[40] During the same period, the reported number of autism cases grew 22-fold in the same location, suggesting that counts reported by clinics or schools provide misleading estimates of the true incidence of autism.[41]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism#Incidence_and_prevalence

if marriages have a 50% fail rate, or 10%(?) for UMC and above, surely we should be stopping men getting married, rather than fathering kids in their forties…shouldn’t we? I mean, that’s where the main risk is for their lives.
1 in 2 marriages
1 in 88 various degrees of abnormality
you do the maths

people’s inability to ask basic scientific questions depresses me…check the numbers, methodology, agenda. otherwise you are just sheep to be manipulated by big business / government / employers etc.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1Z

In the dating an older man post I linked to research that shows how rapidly genetic mutations occur in men over 30. The links to autism and schizophrenia are real.

Just1Z

@Susan
I just thought that I should make clear about the beer, though I’m happy that I amused as well…

Ted D

Susan – I respect and admire my wife a great deal, but not for her leadership abilities. She is caring, considerate, nurturing, and a whole host of other things. I admire those traits because I lack them, and her bringing them to the table helps me, her, and our family.

I don’t want her to respect and admire me for the same traits. I want her to respect and admire my leadership, my ability to stay the course regardless of how I feel about it, my bull headed determination, and my intelligence.

In short, I agree that respect and admiration MUST be a two away street in a relationship, but that respect will not likely be based on the same things from traits. And if my desire for it is based on traits I deem worthy, it does no good if she respects me for other traits. I need acknowledgement from my wife that she values what I’m offering, not some other list of traits. Its fine if she admires my piano skills, but it won’t make me feel content in the relationship it she does not also respect me for what I feel is most important.

Just1Z

And of course, there are educational benefits to being diagnosed with a problem too. money to be made. budgets increased. time in exams. easier grading.

not many people lose when the kid gets labelled.

I remember AJ in the Sopranos getting diagnosed, it was like he’d hit the jackpot, instead of the books that he should have studied.

Ted D

Susan – “I guess I should have said vacuuming in high heels instead. ”

Same old same. Again, do you know any men in real life like this? How many at HUS do you think truly want a return to the 1950s? I’m one of the most sexually conservative men here (and most anywhere LOL) and I have no desire to go back to Leave it to Beaver. But, I also don’t like the other extreme, which is where everyone is the “bread winner” and no one is actually baking the bread.

JP

The immediate problem is that the U.S. might lose access to it’s wealth pumps as it’s international leadership is delegitimized.

That’s going to cause all sorts of problems stateside and is scheduled for about 2030 +/- 10 years.

We’re getting a longs ways away from WWII, folks.

Damien Vulaume

@J: “LOL. Have you visited a Sicilian mountain village in the last 35 years? I have. Appolonia Corleone types haven’t existed there in decades, though a cautious man would still fear her brother or father.”

That’s true, as well as in Corsica. This was a nasty outdated stereotype from me. I used it because I thought the person I sent it to might have been more familiar about it than if I’d chosen other places in the world where ultra patriarchal societies are still sailing full wind.

Escoffier

Re: timing, Susan, I don’t know. There are many variables but only one direction. Suppose that we can do more or less what Europe is doing now: keep papering over the problem, tinker here, temporize there, lurch from crisis to crisis, always coming up with some temporary “fix” that really fixes nothing long term … well, then, assuming we can keep that going absent any external or internal shock, the demography will screw us within 50 years and certainly well before 100.

But our creditors may well act before that, or else something else will topple the house of cards. The only thing certain is that it IS a house of cards and we just ratified the whole system, indeed we voted to expand and perpetuate it.

Cooper

“Does this surprise you?”
No.
“Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?””
It most certainly isn’t.

“would you feel the same way?”
Hard to say, I might.

“What should she do?”
Assure him that she still respects him – needs him. And that she’d be much happier to work through his unemployment *with him*

“I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part.”
I think it’s important that this is something that HE is going through.

“She feels that if he cared enough, he would stay in the relationship, and she also points out that he acknowledges his life is better with her in it.”
I think this relates to the part in the post that mentions that a man seeks a woman’s love, the most, when his life is in order. Obviously this guys considers his life out of order, ATM.

“I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?”
Mmhmm – pretty much.

Basically, for whatever reason, this guy is distancing himself from the relationship, while his life isn’t in order, in attempt to not let the “out of order” spread into the relationship. He is being slightly self in not letting her be involved with his troubles, but he is doing so with, what I assume, it the best intensions. If she really does want the distance, she’ll have to reassure him that A. She isn’t loosing respect for him, and won’t allow his (temporary) unemployment degrade their relationship, and B. that she’d be much happier with him, than (however temporary) without him.

JP

Here’s what Spengler says about the final end of the West:

“3. Maturing of the final form. Private and family policies of individual leaders. The world as spoil. Egypticism, Mandarinism, Byzantinism. Historyless stiffening and enfeeblement even of the imperial machinery, against young peoples eager for spoil, or alien conquerors. Primitive human conditions slowly thrust up into the highly-civilized mode of living””

“After 2200 A.D.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spengler%27s_civilization_model

Cooper

@Tasmin, Susan 457

Tasmin has excellent insight.

“Until we re-enter this state, we are essentially on emotional welfare, lowering our head as we cash those checks.”

Just1Z

@Susan
I know that they are real, no denial at all

but they need to be put in context

I hear that taking the pill increases the risk of thrombosis and other medical issues, but clearly a lot of women look at the overall rate and take the pill for its convenience (or whatever reason that they chose).

basically
doubling a risk of sfa* means nothing
doubling the risk in Russian Roulette is a whole different ballgame

Surely you get that?

*Sweet Fanny Adams / Sweet F*ck All

Ted D

““Until we re-enter this state, we are essentially on emotional welfare, lowering our head as we cash those checks.””

with absolutely NO pride or self respect in sight. Yep, that pretty much sums it all up.

JP

Here’s some from the Archdruid (I am so not a druid).

“Central to Toynbee’s project, and to the sprawling 12-volume work A Study of History that came out of it, was the idea of putting corresponding stages in the rise and fall of civilizations side by side, and seeing what common factors could be drawn from the comparison. Simple in theory, that proved to be a gargantuan undertaking in practice, which is why nearly all of Toynbee’s career as a writer of history was devoted to that one project. The result is a core resource for the kind of work I’m trying to do in this blog: the attempt to gauge the shape of our future by paying attention to the ways similar patterns have worked out in the historic past.

…

The final stages of the process depend on the broader pattern of decline. In Toynbee’s analysis, a civilization in decline always divides into a dominant minority, which maintains its power by increasingly coercive means, and an internal proletariat—that is, the bulk of the population, who are formally part of the civilization but receive an ever smaller share of its benefits and become ever more alienated from its values and institutions. This condition applies to the imperial state and its inner circle of allies; outside that core lies the world of the external proletariat—in the terms used in earlier posts here, these are the peoples subjected to the business end of the imperial wealth pump, whose wealth flows inward to support the imperial core but who receive few benefits in exchange.

The rise of warband culture drives the collapse of that arrangement. As warbands rise, coalesce, and begin probing across the border, the machinery that concentrates wealth in the hands of the dominant minority begins to break apart; tax revenues plunge as wealth turns into warband plunder, and the imperial state’s capacity to enforce its will dwindles. The end comes when the internal proletariat, pushed to the breaking point by increasingly frantic demands from the dominant minority, throws its support to the external proletariat—or, more to the point, to the successful leadership of one or more of the external proletariat’s biggest warbands—and the empire begins its final collapse into a congeries of protofeudal statelets. Much more often than not, that’s how the final crisis of a civilization unfolds; it’s also one standard way that common or garden variety empires fall, even when they don’t take a civilization down with them.”

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/11/on-border.html

And thus completes today’s less in metahistory.

Which is not particularly relevant to the lives of today’s 20-something woman who reads HUS.

Escoffier

So, I have been thinking about what sort of marriage I have and I don’t know. It’s not clear to me that either one of us is the clear leader. She’s definitely not but am I? Really, the whole issue almost never comes up because there is nothing significant involving the marriage (or anything else) that we disagree on, apart from occasional irritating little arguments about where to spend this or that holiday. (If it were up to me, I would go to California at every opportunity and never see my in-laws at all. There’s no conflict there, I just really like going home and going to see them is meh at best.)

My career since I met her has totally been under my control and she has supported every decision I have made, moving four times for me, including once across the country. I have deferred to her on most decisions regarding the children but that’s because she’s with them all day and I’m not and also because I don’t think she’s ever been wrong. I should qualify that by saying, not including day-t0-day parenting and discipline, which we both do. But when it comes to which pre-school or which althetic program and what have you, she does all the research and comes to a conclusion and I ratify.

The last big decision we had to make, apart from simply having the kids in the first place, was when we moved back to NY, and I wanted to be in Manhattan and she wanted to be in a ‘burb. I knew in my heart that she was right because the size of the place we could afford would have been so small we all would have been on top of each other and it would have been awful. So she didn’t really even need to persuade me, I realized that she was right.

She also took the lead in researching and purchasing our last car, which was five years ago.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Escoffier, your marriage dynamic sounds about the same as mine. Division of labor, consult one another on the big decisions, little conflict, etc. I call that egalitarian.

JP

Less = lesson.

J

The U.S. is excellent at producing anomie.

Yes, indeed.

J, Italy definitely, but Israel??? That’s a crazy high-stress country if you ask me. People there are very tightly wound. Gee, I wonder why …

Yep, Israel. Despite the situation, Israelis seem a lot more open, friendly and relaxed–at least amongst each other and with Americans–than Americans are with each other.

About four years ago, when I was employed, I did a bit of work travel. One year, I was in LA and Israel within a few months of each other. I was staying in Beverly Hills and in my off times I would take a bus around town. One late afternoon, I went to the La Brea tar pits and then to Rodeo Drive. After the shops closed, the streets were deserted. There were plenty of cars whizzing by, of course, but no foot traffic. The buses were full of surly looking teens. It was 9 o’clock in the evening, and I was definitely uneasy.

Contrast this to Jerusalem at midnight. Loads of foot traffic. People say hi to strangers. Teen and pre-teen girls are allowed out at night; no one fears stranger rape. During the day, strange little kids ask you to help them cross the street. Their mothers, who are watching them out the windows, yell down to say it’s OK for you to help. Strangers offer you bits of food–“Are you American? Here, have a fry. Americans like fries, no?”

Sure, people are nervous about Arab attacks. Nonetheless, the day-to-day seems pretty relaxed there, in an albeit weird way. The source of danger is clearly identitfied and understood; there’s no fear of random violence from other Israelis. OTOH, my female counterparts told me that NYC and Chicago are terrifying places to visit because they are “full of muggers and rapists.”

Just1Z

@JP
“against young peoples eager for spoil”
also
Boomers with their medicaid (no savings were made for this (tax cuts at the time), so actually the young are paying for the old. demographics make this a poor idea for the kids – A Ponzi scheme give it a google if necessary)
Single women demanding parenthood (‘independence’ via state benefits)
Young demanding subsidies to study worthless degrees

Cooper

Gawd my phone edits are unreal.

Anyone that reads my posts have to be “edit open-minded.”

Self=selfish, it=is, “if she does want”=doesn’t, loosing=losing.

Ugh. Smh.

Cooper

@JP 467

Hahahah.

Ted D

Escoffier – “So, I have been thinking about what sort of marriage I have and I don’t know. It’s not clear to me that either one of us is the clear leader. She’s definitely not but am I?”

To be honest I’m pretty much in the same type of marriage. We don’t fight because we work together to accomplish things. We both do indeed defer to the other depending on what the situation calls for. But, there is a sense of leadership in the relationship based on our roles and how we fill them.

I’m 100% sure that if my wife was asked a question like “who is the boss in your house?” she would reply that there is no boss because we work together. If I was asked the same question, my reply would be that IF it every came down to someone having to be “the boss”, it would be me. I do my best to work WITH her so that “pulling rank” is never an issue, because the last thing I want is for her to feel inferior. What I find sad is that she feels SO strongly about “being equal” that it would bother her to admit what she and I both know: that if it came down to it, I am the leader of our household. And why does she feel so strongly about trying to “pull her weight” and “be equal”? You guessed it, because soceity TOLD her she should be “strong and independant”, and admitting that she depends on me would somehow lesson her value as a woman.

It’s odd, because deep down inside she is a rather old fashioned woman with a foundation of conservative values. Over that is a lifetime of living with a mother that pushed “independence” because she went through 4 husbands in her lifetime and still manged to end up alone. If she didn’t hold those conservative values, we simply wouldn’t work out. But, despite her desire to BE my wife, she also still feels like she has to be something else to have meaning in her life. Me? I’m completely happy being her husband and my children’s father. If we didn’t need money to survive, and I didn’t need to have some form of “prestige” to feel comfortable with my place in the world and my relationship, I woudn’t need anything more to feel accomplished with my life.

J

@Ted

Well the thing is, hypergamy probably doen’st cause too many problems for Cinderella.

Presumably because it’s a fairy tale. IRL, the fantasy just doesn’t happen.

Two years later, Jane files for divorce and ends up with Tim Brown, who years ago when she married was possibly below her threshold, but now that he has a VP position at a small company, he looks stellar next to her loser husband without a job.

Except that it doesn’t happen that often as Tim will more than likely seek out women who better befit his new status. As an example, DH and I both came from the working class–him a not lower than me, BTW, since my parents did eventually reunite after divorce and became a two income couple. If I were to die, do you think he’d go fishing in working class waters again? I rather doubt it. He’d some divorcee or widow in our current environment.

J

It is her defferance to his leadership that SHOWS she respects and admires him.

Not necessarily, Ted. I have a helluva a lot of respect and admiration for my husband, and I’m not particularly deferential (unless we are discussing an area, like investments, where he has professional expertise). I couldn’t be with him if he were not an admirable person, but I don’t hand over my autonomy to him. Nor does he seem to want it. OTOH, I’ve seen a lot of “deferential” users.

INTJ

@ Susan

I think it would be different if they started out on equal footing, and then he lost his job once they were committed. In this case, I think he started out not wanting anything serious because of his situation, but then he fell for her anyway. When they had a conversation about their relationship, he told her that he would keep doing his best to hold her at arm’s length as long as he was unemployed. She could see no way to proceed under such an artificial structure, and had no interest in dialing the relationship back to casual. Also, he now feels that he must move wherever a job offer occurs, so he doesn’t feel geographically stable either. It’s a bad situation. I know she is brokenhearted, I don’t know about him.

He seems like the kind of guy that is the cause of male suicides being 4 times as likely as female suicides.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

He seems like the kind of guy that is the cause of male suicides being 4 times as likely as female suicides.

Not sure what you mean here?

INTJ

@ Susan

Yes, this is what I meant by the bare feet comment. I guess I should have said vacuuming in high heels instead. In any case, the future belongs to those looking forward – the innovators. There may be a period ahead like Escoffier describes – a sort of Dark Ages where we go back to survival mode. We’re throwing darts, we won’t be around to see it.

I think the problem is which part of the manosphere you choose to associate with. VD might not mind women being barefoot and pregnant, but I’m sure Chateau Heartiste doesn’t want that.

J

That’s true, as well as in Corsica. This was a nasty outdated stereotype from me. I used it because I thought the person I sent it to might have been more familiar about it than if I’d chosen other places in the world where ultra patriarchal societies are still sailing full wind.

Oh, I wasn’t at all offended. I knew exactly what you were talking about. I was just pointing out how even ultra patriarchal societies have changed since, I’d say, the end of WW II. And if WW III breaks out in the Middle East, the Arabs can kiss it good-bye too.

Ted D

J – “Except that it doesn’t happen that often as Tim will more than likely seek out women who better befit his new status. ”

You missed that I said Jane chose Tim based on her NEW value, presumably made by her increase of status from when she married to John. Tim may be a co-worker, or perhaps a manager/supervisor in her office? I’ve seen this scenario play out about 5 or 6 times with couples I know. Maybe it’s just the ‘Burgh, but other men seem to report similar issues, so I’d wager it isn’t a geographically isolated phenominon.

“I have a helluva a lot of respect and admiration for my husband, and I’m not particularly deferential (unless we are discussing an area, like investments, where he has professional expertise). ”

And perhaps for your husband this is plenty of “deferance”. Remember I said that the amout of deference required by a man probably varies a great deal, just as the desire for dominance vairies from woman to woman. The issue is, there seems to be more women looking for a man like your husband than a man like me, but more men like me than you husband, so to speak. Meaning, of the men I know, most want some level of actual, seeable deference from their mate. It may be as little as “allowing” him to buy a convertible when he wants one, all the way up to “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.” The issue is, woman are wanting to break out of that role faster than men are willing to give up on it.

I personally do NOT want my wife to be some cowering housewife afraid of my ever word, waiting at the door with a drink and my slippers. I very much like that if push came to shove, I know beyond all doubt she is capable of handling herself AND our kids. That being said, as long as I’m around, I fully expect her to NOT grab the reigns and instead expect her to allow herself to depend on me knowing full well that I have her best interests at heart, because what’s good for her is good for me, and my family.

There is NOTHING wrong with women being capable. However, being capable DOES NOT mean you should just do something. Sometimes, even when you can do it yourself, it’s a good idea to let someone else do it for you. Because, it’s good for them, and in turn good for you, and your children as well. It isn’t that my wife CAN or CAN’T do something that matters to me, it is that she knows when she SHOULD or SHOULDN’T do something, and I expect her to come to me if she has doubts about that.

Escoffier

Well, there are cities like that in the US, LA is not one of them lol. The idea that NYC (manhattan) is scary is laughable IMO. Chicago Gold Coast/Lincoln Park is also not the least scary but it does get scary when you stray too far.

Anyway, I wasn’t so much talking about the crime rate but the Israeli national character, which is not, IME, “laid back.” Israel, HK and NYC share that same super-personality overdrive, I have observed.

INTJ

@ Escoffier

Anyway, I wasn’t so much talking about the crime rate but the Israeli national character, which is not, IME, “laid back.” Israel, HK and NYC share that same super-personality overdrive, I have observed.

Yeah it’s that Type A personality.

J

VD might not mind women being barefoot and pregnant, but I’m sure Chateau Heartiste doesn’t want that.

The entity that calls itself CH, which may or may not include Jim Weideman at his point, is essentially crypto-conservative. In fact, I’d say the overall tone of the ‘sphere is ‘If I can’t find a June Cleaver and have to “settle for a carousel rider,” then I wanna see the whole thing crash and burn will I “sit poolside” and/or enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle.’ I suspect that the biggest tragedy of many a ‘sphere bloggers life is inability to attract a gal like mom. Several Roissy regulars BTW have told me that they envied my family life, used to want something like it, no longer believed it possible, etc.

Just1Z

@Intj
“I think the problem is which part of the manosphere you choose to associate with. VD might not mind women being barefoot and pregnant, but I’m sure Chateau Heartiste doesn’t want that.”

you’re on fire tonight! l’d mao

respect

Lokland

@J

“In fact, I’d say the overall tone of the ‘sphere is ‘If I can’t find a June Cleaver and have to “settle for a carousel rider,” then I wanna see the whole thing crash and burn will I “sit poolside” and/or enjoy a hedonistic lifestyle.’”

This pissed me off.

No man should have to settle for a carousel rider. Refusing to do so is neither wrong nor unacceptable.

It is the lowest possible form of mate in existence.

Given the choice between that and watching it crash and burn. Crash and burn because the new system that arises in its place might be better at providing “a gal like mom.”

The reaction to watch the crash and burn of society is not a knee jerk resentment reaction. If the current system does not work for you, build a new system.
Thats happened many times throughout history.

Lokland

@INTJ

+1 btw.

There’s a difference between being barefoot and pregnant and being a follower.

Also, following doesn’t typically entail much.
Unless your relationship is over the top drama filled, following entails letting him choose the restaurant and where to go for vacation. Ohh nooooo, scary….please not Cuba again…anything but Cuba.

J

Anyway, I wasn’t so much talking about the crime rate but the Israeli national character, which is not, IME, “laid back.”

Well, Italians aren’t either for that matter. I’ve never been to the North, but south of Rome, people are just as likely as Israelis to be frenetic, excitable, loud and emotional. Both groups of people also have a warmth that you don’t find in LA. I was in NYC this summer for the first time in several years. New Yorkers seem more friendly than they used to.

BroHamlet

@Escoffier

“Bro, well, personally, if not coupled up, it’s very doubtful I would be where I am today. Not saying I would be unhappy but I probably would not have achieved what I have achieved.”

And that’s what I mean by her making your journey easier (and you hers). I think you’d still have achieved the same IF you really wanted it- there are definite benefits to being coupled up, but some people also get complacent in a relationship, or give up their dreams to fit the mold. I’m saying you should make the mold and then allow your life and the people in it to fit into it.

@Ted D
“But, it would have been worse for society, because without a family to support, I would NOT have become a productive member of society. Because frankly, I don’t give a shit about “society” because they don’t give a shit about me.”

You and I may differ here. I was raised to be realistic about what I wanted and to recognize that I wouldn’t always be able to do exactly what I wanted to get those things. You definitely know that you often have to pay the piper to get the material things you want- sometimes there’s no passion in provision, even if its just providing for yourself. Right now my contributions to society allow me to be free to do what I like to do in other arenas. Oddly enough, I still want to do well enough at the rat race to live nicely, and that’s probably because I’m a competitor, and I just plain like winning. For me, being productive does have benefits, whether I give a shit about society or not- I contribute for me and what I get in return, not really for the benefit of society, and I would be considered “productive”. There are other arenas where I contribute for the good of the whole because my heart is in it.

Ted D

“The reaction to watch the crash and burn of society is not a knee jerk resentment reaction.”

I get the impression that most women actually believe men ARE simply pissed off and acting like children: if I can’t play my way I’ll take my toys and leave!

They fail to realize that most men would prefer to be happy. They would much rather be able to spend time doing something enjoyable rather than sit around and be grump that life sucks. But, as Lokland pointed out, men also tend to see something that is broken and want to fix it. This current political climate is not allowing men a chance to fix it, or at least not in the way many/most would like it to be fixed, so instead they decide to do nothing and let it burn. Because honestly, why should I bust my ass to keep a system afloat that I:
Do not like or agree with
Doesn’t even acknowledge let alone admire the sacrifice I make TO keep it afloat
Doesn’t really provide me with any reward FOR putting in the effort.

It used to be that “putting in the effort” got you a wife, a family, a house, a car, and a comfortable standard of living. Many men can’t find gainful employement, can’t manage to find a woman to marry let alone keep that marriage together for life, lost their homes and cars, and yet still works hard for losing returns. IF they get married, they often find themselves competing WITH their wives instead of working with them to get ahead, and many times feel very unappriciated for any effort they put in.

Is this the fault of women alone? No way. It took a whole host of variables to get us here, but if men are currently backed into a corner, the only way they can get ahead is if women give them a way out.

J

This pissed me off.

It’s not in quotes because I advocate that you find some slut to marry. It’s in quotes because I think it’s a meme. Ever hear this old song?

Would you like to swing on a star
carry moonbeams home in a jar
and be better off than you are
or would you rather be a mule?

Makes it sound as though there are only two options, but, in point of fact, few people get to swing on stars or be mules. Same with the ‘spheres view of options:

Would you like to marry a slut
get divorce raped up the butt
and be worse off than you are
or would you rather be just sit poolside and watch it all burn?

There’s a lot of middle ground that gets ignored.

And with that, gentleman, I am going to load the dishwasher and defrost some meat.

Ted D

BroHamlet – “You definitely know that you often have to pay the piper to get the material things you want- sometimes there’s no passion in provision, even if its just providing for yourself. ”

The difference between you and I is simply a matter of what we want for ourselves.

When I was a kid, I had a mind to go two different routes in my life, musician or family man. Over time, I realized that my desire to be a musician, although genuine and personally driven, was also likely to end in a less than stellar fashion. By itself I was OK with that, expect I also wanted a family. I chose to do something with my life I really didn’t want or desire, to get my family. Or, in other words, I paid the piper with my entire life in trade for a happy family and a life long marriage.

I did get my family, but the marriage didn’t last. So, at that point in my life, the price I paid to the piper was far more than what I got, because the ONLY reason I paid the price was to have what I lost: a wife and family. I still have my children, and I managed to find a woman that values what I can offer based on the price I already paid, so for me it was a chance to salvage the sacrifices I made early in my life to get what I wanted: an intact family. But what if I hadn’t found her? I would have sacrificed the first 38 years of my life for something I didn’t actually get in the end.

Perhaps I was completely foolish to make the choice I did at 21 years old when I first started a degree in Computer Science, and to be honest I’ve questioned it many times myself. Because the ONLY thing I have to offer a woman IMO that is worth a damn in terms of relationship equity, is the money I make and the comfort I can provide. I gave up the rest to GET that equity, and today it is becomming more worthless by the day. Am I a good person? Most days. Do I have “redeeming” qualities a woman would find attractive? Certainly. But MY opinion of what I have to offer a woman is money and security. The rest is extra fluff to me.

I am driven to do more because I want more for my family, NOT because I want more for me. I truly could have been happy as a clam spending my days playing music and getting by, but I determined that a family and a legacy was more important. IF I’d been told at 18 years old that I couldn’t have a family, or that I would have to struggle every day to keep it intact? I might just have decided living on the road was a better deal.

JP

@Susan:

“Which of these is likely to have the longest lasting effects?”

Uh, liberation and ego boost?

After all, liberation lasts a lifetime.

And if your ego was tiny, maybe stretching it out will make it bigger and, uh, more awesome and more ready to handle liberation?

I’m not sure that the smaller egos handle liberation as well.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Would you like to swing on a star
carry moonbeams home in a jar
and be better off than you are
or would you rather be a mule?

Fond memories of my mom singing this song to me. Heck, sometimes she still does (“moooommmmm, you can stop singing now, I’m not five years old…”).

Escoffier

I don’t get the sense that Roissy is saying “Since I can’t have a kinky June Cleaver, I will burn down the system.” Rather he is saying, “The system is burning from causes beyond my control, but which I among very few understand. Since there is nothing I can do about it, I may as well use my knowledge to screw hot women.”

Ted D

Susan – “Division of labor, consult one another on the big decisions, little conflict, etc. I call that egalitarian.”

right up until some situatoin comes along that you and your hubby dont agree on. Then what?

On the outside I’m damn sure my marriage looks exactly like what you and Escoffier described. Why would I go out of my way to make my household some evil dicatorship when a peaceful existance is much better for everyone and less stress for me? The thing is, someone still has to be the “bad guy” sometimes, and generally that person is the “leader” of the family. Because when the truly hard decisions come, it is that person that shoulders the responsibility and the outcome of the decision.

If I am going to take that responsibility (and I insist that I DO take it in my relationships) then I expect a certain level of respect and deference for doing so. And I insist on having that role because without it, there is always a possibility that my “rank” may sink too low, and I’d find myself single again. If that is a constant possibility, then I’m damned sure going to do my best to make sure I’m in control until I’m not, if that makes any sense.

I hope you all don’t think that I go home and swing my dick around like some caveman. It isn’t like I look for some sure sign that my wife worships the ground I walk on every day. All I want is her assurance that if/when shit hits the fan, she’ll stand by me and support my decisions, even if she doesn’t necessarily like them. In return, I give her my assurance that I will never use that “power” to take advantage of her, because like I said, what’s good for her is good for me, and good for our children. And, it also relieves her of the burden of being the “bad guy” if/when that shit arrives.

I get that this is a VERY tough sell for most people, and certainly for the “strong and independant” woman of today. But its what I’m offering, and I certainly won’t accept anything less now that I know what I do. I tried the whole “egalitarian” thing in my first marriage, and it failed. Yeah, I was using a flawed model so no surprise. But, if I’m going to fail (or succeed) again, this time it will be on my terms.

Just1Z

@TedD

This current political climate is not allowing men a chance to fix it, or at least not in the way many/most would like it to be fixed, so instead they decide to do nothing and let it burn. Because honestly, why should I bust my ass to keep a system afloat that I:
Do not like or agree with
Doesn’t even acknowledge let alone admire the sacrifice I make TO keep it afloat
Doesn’t really provide me with any reward FOR putting in the effort.

happy to sign up to all that you say there, and would add that not only is there no reward for any effort, but you actually get called some kind of prophet of doom for even mentioning any issues.

Ignorance is bliss wasn’t supposed to be a way of life, but billions do it and they vote…

Escoffier

Well, my wife was not keen to move the last time. She liked where we lived. It was clear that at some point we were going to need a bigger place but that could have been delayed a little and there was no necessity to leave the area.

I wouldn’t call that a “disagreement” but moving for the new job was something I wanted to do that she was not exactly eager for, but she put up no resistance, she let me lead in that instance (and in fact in every other career decision that required a move). So I guess I do lead but I can’t recall ever having to really “rule” on some decision that she disagreed with, because anything she really doesn’t want to do is something I don’t want to do either.

Just1Z

“or would you rather be just sit poolside and watch it all burn?”

the bonfire is already lit and it’s frigging enormous, just wait till it gets going.

http://alfin2100.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/when-exploding-debt-meets-collapsing.html

http://alfin2100.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/business-in-russia-etc-worrisome-future.html

nobody is laughing because it’s funny; it’s called “Gallows Humour”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallows_humorhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallows_humor

Author and playwright Oscar Wilde was destitute and living in a cheap boarding house when he found himself on his deathbed. There are variations on what the sentence exactly was, but his reputed last words were, “Either that wallpaper goes or I do.”

Murderer James French has been attributed with famous last words before his death by electric chair: “How’s this for a headline? ‘French Fries’.” Likewise, when a Jewish mob boss George Appel was electrocuted, his last words were: “Well, gentlemen, you are about to see a baked Appel.”

In the conclusion to Monty Python’s Life of Brian, a group of crucified criminals joyfully sing “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life”.

In Stephen King’s book The Tommyknockers, the main character reflects on a joke he “heard once”. As a man is about to be executed, the firing squad leader offers the man about to be executed a cigarette. He replies, “No thanks, I’m trying to quit.”

Men want to fix stuff, when we can’t, or aren’t allowed to, it can be stressful – so, relax poolside and enjoy the decline

Ted D

Escoffier – “So I guess I do lead but I can’t recall ever having to really “rule” on some decision that she disagreed with, because anything she really doesn’t want to do is something I don’t want to do either.”

There ya go! FWIW I think this is probably the exact model I shoot for in my marriage. I have NO desire to be an asshole, but I do desire the ability to choose the path of our family, with her input, but ultimately in the way I feel is best. I’m asking for a lot here, I know this. But, I wouldn’t want to be with a woman that didn’t trust me with this responsibility. Because to me, it is my primary purpose in the family to DO so.

I would say any couple that fights a lot has bigger issues than “who’s the boss around here” to deal with. Things should run smoothly enough that there are very few times when things come to a major blowout. Part of that is having two people that are 100% committed to working things out. But, another part of that is having a relationship framework that bypasses an impasse if one occurs, and in my marriage I’m the tie breaker. Can it be the woman and not the husband? I’m sure it can and does work for some people. But how many? Are these couples a minority? 50% of all? More? I suspect that female led households in this sense are the minority, although that may change as time goes on. What I find troubling is: knowing what I do about a woman’s tendency to want a man somehow “better” than her, how would such a female led family survive long term? Would she truly stay happy with her “lesser” husband for life?

I may be totally wrong about all of this, but my suspicion is I’m not. I don’t know many men that would be truly satisfied playing second fiddle to a successful wife, and very few women that would be happy with a kitchen bitch for a husband. There is lots of room in there for degrees of variance, but I truly believe that for the vast majority of folks, the “better” man model is the necessary one. Just how “better” he has to be probably varies a great deal woman to woman.

INTJ

@ Susan

Not sure what you mean here?

Sorry. I was being overly cryptic there. I’m just that whereas she has to deal with the sadness of the relationship ending due to circumstances, he has much bigger problems than just the relationship.

Unable to get back a job like the one he had, he must feel very worthless right now. I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes for a second. This is a large problem with young males today though. So many of them are lost and unable to make things work with their careers.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Thanks for clarifying, I agree with you. I actually asked her if he is depressed, and she said she thinks so. He has said a lot of very self-deprecating things.

Tasmin

@Susan
“This breaks my heart! I know that when they broke up she said that she believed in him, and he said that he did not share that feeling, so he could not accept it from her. ”

Uhg. Mine too. I have been through this and it still pains me a great deal. She said those exact words to me: “I believe in you.” There are only a handful of phrases that are as powerful and intimate. In many ways that struck me even more than “I love you” because it spoke more directly to that space in myself that I could not fill up. I knew that her faith and love for me in a time where I was stripped naked, unanchored and exposed is precisely the kind of respect, faith and commitment that I desired yet I could not accept it.

That kind of raw and deep attachment becomes a heady responsibility and I ultimately didn’t believe I was up to the task of becoming the man worthy of her commitment, in time – or in full. I could not reconcile her image of me with what I held up as the image of what I needed to become. The irony is that I was ALREADY the man that she desired, but I didn’t trust her given that I didn’t have the experience of being loved as a man without title, without definable status, direction, purpose, and power. Or so I believed. The truth was that she found in me things that I had yet to discover, accept, or value on my own. A tragedy indeed.

I think his response is telling. He does not love himself, he is full of fear, and he does not feel worthy of this kind of faith in him. He probably knows – as I did, that her valuing his character decoupled from most of the contextual markers of society is something we strive and hope for in a relationship, yet in these situations it becomes further affirmation of how we are taking and not giving.

He is writing the script and she is not following it. He has little faith in himself, she has every faith in him. If she follows his script, she begins to believe the message: he is not strong, not worthy of further investment. And his self-fulfilling prophecy is completed.

Or she breaks script and rails against his views of himself, she is assuming the more dominant role of provider (of emotional and ego support) as well as adversary in terms of having to constantly challenge his view and justify her beliefs in him; all while her life away from him is a constant reminder of the world in which he struggles to reclaim his place.

The fact that she is a participant and beneficiary of a world that has seemingly rejected him or a world that he is distancing himself from makes the alignment of his view of self and her view of him much more difficult; he must either devalue that world in order to preserve his sense of self or devalue himself in order to reconcile his place (or lack of) in that world.

Not being able to accept her blind admiration, essentially rejecting something so valuable feels really horrible and often the only way to relieve some of the guilt and shame is to default to the belief that she is better off w/o you. You still my still see yourself as the captain of your ship, but you would rather go down with the ship alone, rather than have her either come to see you as you see yourself or indeed grow weary of taking the dominant role and eventually take the only remaining power you have from you in your weakest moment. It is some kind of self-destruction for the sake of self-preservation.

It is a selfish act but whether or not it is necessary or “right” is still lost on me. It goes to that question of being “ready” for a relationship for life. And something of the chicken-egg: does it mean she wasn’t the “right” woman for him because he could not trust-accept her investment in him at his lowest – is it the “right” person who can inspire us to overcome these situations OR is it the situation that inspires us to find the right person, does he have to find that love and respect for himself before he is open to find the “right” woman. Like all things, I suspect a continuum, but in the midst of these times it can be really difficult to accurately self-assess where we are on it.

In some ways it is understandable why he (and men in general) took this action because the character qualities she obviously admires in him are buried beneath all of the external validation we are accustomed to. We have internalized the fact that image has supplanted integrity in our culture. You can tell a man all kinds of things and he may even believe a few of them them to be true, but it is hard to overcome a lifetime of experience in how the rest of our culture acknowledges and rewards those visible markers, the proxies, the facade in favor of those character qualities. So until he can reclaim some measure of himself in those other mirrors, he will feel pacified, coddled, and turn those deep compliments into further indications of his weakness, his needs, his taking – not his strength, his provisioning, his giving.

My heart goes out to both of them.

INTJ

@ J

There’s a lot of middle ground that gets ignored.

But Heartiste has tried to find that middle ground. He has made several posts about applying Game to LTRs.

INTJ

@ Susan

Thanks for clarifying, I agree with you. I actually asked her if he is depressed, and she said she thinks so. He has said a lot of very self-deprecating things.

Yeah unless he’s a total lazy bum, any guy in his situation would be depressed.

Ted D

Tasmin – I’ve been in that place myself, and you did a stellar job of explaining it. Kudos!

HanSolo

@Tasmin 502

This makes me think of Javert committing suicide after having his life spared by Jean Valjean. His view of the world being ruled by justice was shaken and that there were other forces at work, just as the man in Susan’s story believes that his worth is primarily derived by his career status and provider capability, ignoring the other things that make life worth living and him attractive to the woman in question.

To quote wikipedia’s take on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert:

“He would rather ‘escape now from the world … of Jean Valjean,’ where forgiveness trumps judgment.”

Just1Z

Cappy Cap:
“I know I say “enjoy the decline,” but it takes a mighty strong person to embed that into their psychologies”
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-one-thing-i-mourn-most-with-death.html

Ted D

““He would rather ‘escape now from the world … of Jean Valjean,’ where forgiveness trumps judgment.””

Or put another way: he wanted to leave a world where he saw no place for himself. I get it.

Fact is, many men are “checking out” of society for the same reason. But instead of committing suicide, they are playing Xbox and passing the time.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

My husband leads in every decision, but he consults me before doing it. I don’t usually use my “veto power” because I know he’s reasonable and won’t deliberately do something harmful to us.

For a few years I made several times more money than him, and now I make a little bit less than him. It isn’t really about the money, more about the all-important respect. He knows he “wears the pants” in our marriage, but he doesn’t abuse it.

On the other hand, we talk about things and discuss them in a manner that would probably be seen as egalitarian by most people. And as Escoffier describes, anything I really don’t want, my husband wouldn’t want either.

HanSolo

@Susan

He recently ended the relationship. He told her that although she is the best thing to have happened to him in months, he “feels like a loser all the time.” He also said that he cannot possibly be responsible for another person’s happiness right now – all of his energy must be directed toward finding employment. He promised that if he gets a job, she will be the first person he calls. She is in love with him, and devastated.

Does this surprise you? Is this a case of “he’s just not that into you?” or would you feel the same way? What should she do? I think she’s going to have a hard time letting go, because she perceives that the circumstances are entirely to blame, rather than a lack of feeling on his part. She feels that if he cared enough, he would stay in the relationship, and she also points out that he acknowledges his life is better with her in it. I think it’s more about his self-respect. What do you think?

I believe he really does love/like her but he doesn’t feel the same way about himself. (Though without really getting inside his head this is just speculation. It is possible but not likely that he doesn’t love her. In this case I think it really is him, and not her, unless she’s actively making him feel inferior in ways that aren’t clear…she seems to be very supportive of him and loving him for who he is inside and not just his job/status.)

He gets a bit of my empathy but the more I think about it not much. He seems like more of a quitter and a coward. I usually give men the benefit of the doubt these days so it’s not lightly that I come down hard on him.

Yeah, he can’t find a job he wants. So what? Industries change, the economy changes, we have to adapt and move on. That is what has allowed humanity to survive. We’re resilient, adaptive and keep on fighting. Granted, he’s still looking for work but maybe it’s in an oversupplied field or maybe he wasn’t that good at what he did. I don’t know.

Passing up on a good woman in order to avoid the painful looking in the mirror that being around her requires makes me think of the powerful movie, The Mission, where the Robert De Niro character, Rodrigo Mendoza, is sulking in the prison, feeling guilty and worthless for having killed his brother in a duel. Father Gabriel tells him, “I see a coward, a man running from the world.”

This man needs to look inward fast and see that there is more to him than just a job. He needs to love himself for who he is, independent of the job. He also needs to realize that his industry may be in the dumps forever and change to another field.

HanSolo

@Ted D

I agree that there are many forces stacked against men and they don’t feel needed, appreciated or that there’s much opportunity. I’ve spoken often to that and that men respond to being needed.

OTOH, the checked-out men need to stop being such pussies and find some inner drive that is meaningful to them and do it. If they go there own way because they consciously choose it, great, but if they choose to just be helpless victims in the face of real difficulties and neglect then I really don’t have much sympathy. Yes, there are many forces against many men and so society in general and women should work on those but for these men themselves, they have the ability within them to fight and strive and find their own purpose, and if they’re not doing it and succeeding as best they can within a difficult environment then I have less sympathy for them.

I have overall sympathy and concern about the environment they’re in but if they just choose to be quitters then I don’t.

Escoffier

The only think I want to do that my wife does (or did) not want to do is return to Santa Cruz “some day.” (Not that she is from there but she’s been going for years now.) Recently she has softened on that, partly because of the weather here, I think.

Anyway, what I used to tell is her is that I sure as hell AM going to go home one day, she can come or not, I hope she does, but I ain’t going back on that promise to myself for no one or nothing. That would annoy her, I think because she wasn’t quite sure if it’s a joke or not (it’s not).

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Tasmin, wow that is very tragic.

“The irony is that I was ALREADY the man that she desired, but I didn’t trust her given that I didn’t have the experience of being loved as a man without title, without definable status, direction, purpose, and power. Or so I believed.”

I also fell in love with him when he was not externally high in status. He was always high in status to me though. I did remember him feeling depressed and like he wasn’t going to make it, and telling him that I believe in him and that he’s awesome and amazing, even when he didn’t think or feel that way.

We were both young though, mid-20s, and he had some sense of direction and purpose. He also had a lot of spiritual wisdom, was open to love, and did not place an extreme amount of importance on externalities. Before he took this job which is well-paying, he promised himself he would not fall prey to the love of money and would try to help the less fortunate whenever the occasion rises.

I can understand the deep desire for a man to “feel like a man.” But I think that a woman who falls in love with a man when he’s not well-off is a woman who truly loves him for him, and has already fulfilled the “for richer or for poorer” part.

JP

“OTOH, the checked-out men need to stop being such pussies and find some inner drive that is meaningful to them and do it. ”

Or they can go to law school.

That works for some people.

HanSolo

This is the trailer of the Mission, one of my favorite movies of all time, totally recommend everyone watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG3VHlEIxV0

Here’s the great dialog between Father Gabriel and Rodrigo Mendoza after Mendoza kills his brother and is sulking in the monestary:

Gabriel: I see a man running away, a man hiding from the world. I see a coward.

So is that it? Is this how you mean to go on? (sulking in the monestary)

Rodrigo: There is nothing else.

Father Gabriel: There is life.

Rodrigo: There is no life.

Gabriel: There is a way out, Mendoza.

Rodrigo: For me, there is no redemption.

Gabriel: God gave us the burden of freedom. You chose your crime. Do you have the courage to choose your penance? Do you dare do that?

Rodrigo: There is no penance hard enough for me.

Gabriel: But do you dare try it?

HanSolo

@JP

Or they can go to law school.

You do have a dark sense of humor! LMAO

Mike C

Re: timing, Susan, I don’t know. There are many variables but only one direction. Suppose that we can do more or less what Europe is doing now: keep papering over the problem, tinker here, temporize there, lurch from crisis to crisis, always coming up with some temporary “fix” that really fixes nothing long term … well, then, assuming we can keep that going absent any external or internal shock, the demography will screw us within 50 years and certainly well before 100.

But our creditors may well act before that, or else something else will topple the house of cards. The only thing certain is that it IS a house of cards and we just ratified the whole system, indeed we voted to expand and perpetuate it.

Escoffier,

It is critically important to point out the U.S. is NOT Europe in one very important way….we control the currency our debt is denominated in unlike Spain, Italy, or Greece with the euro.

Regarding our “creditors” it is important to realize that a good chunk of the U.S. Treasury debt is held on the balance sheet of the Federal Reserve, and the Fed has done much of the debt purchasing the last few years. Now this comes with its own set of financial issues ….most likely down the road, but “going broke” isn’t one of them. The ability of the U.S. to theoretically issue dollars is not constrained just like a a scorekeeper can’t run out of points to put on the scoreboard. It isn’t clear to me why those in power who know better insist on this fiction of going broke. I suspect if it was commonly understood there was no limitation on the creation of dollars to pay government obligations the fear is the populace would in fact demand it.

In any case, I would suggest reading this:

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-1

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1905625

Tasmin

@Hope
“I can understand the deep desire for a man to “feel like a man.” But I think that a woman who falls in love with a man when he’s not well-off is a woman who truly loves him for him, and has already fulfilled the “for richer or for poorer” part.”

Agree. and that is why it is so tragic. While one woman can go a long way to help a man “feel like a man”, the extent to which he deviates from those “traditional” and more universal markers in society will put an increasing emphasis/importance on that one woman’s view, which can be problematic. Sometimes it is just too much – too far.

Getting together young can avoid some of this as there is less of a delta between how he sees himself and those external expectations – and the plenty of time ahead in which to carve it out. But the issue isn’t so much about a man needing and searching for those external things as it is about the man’s ability to generate his own inner strength, which is something that is very hard to do for a generation of men who have been sent counterproductive and mixed messages about what it means to be a “man” and particularly difficult when that man finds himself displaced.

Some men manage to navigate better than others. Some men do better in this alone, some with a partner like you. Some will never “get it” and for some it will take a long time and relationships will inevitably get caught in the gears. Some men never get displaced or face a reckoning and some don’t care or don’t have the raw material to manufacture their own worth. There are all kinds, but the fact remains those external things matter. How much, under what circumstances, and to whom is always debatable, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t matter and each man has to do his own work to find his place in light of this truth.

Certainly your husband had to do his own work to feel grounded and confident and full (enough) of purpose that had nothing to do with you. In fact, it was this: “He also had a lot of spiritual wisdom, was open to love, and did not place an extreme amount of importance on externalities.” that evidenced his very power and frame of confidence that you found to be so attractive to begin with. While young, you still met a man with purpose. Sure it was subject to lulls in confidence and other challenges, which you have met together, but still that is quite different from a man displaced and faced with course-correction, fighting back in, and the distinct possibility of accepting a new position within the same game at a lower level.

In any case, I think you two sound truly grateful to have found each other. Sometimes it is just a matter of timing. And that’s a bitch because we want to feel like we have more control than that

Bully

I think that if women never abused gender roles by taking the Chinese menu approach, then I think there would be much fewer men feeling crushed about not being able to find jobs.

Men are practical. We know what what’s being said, but we’re also quite good at reading between the lines.

Like it or not, if the woman in the example previously mentioned wants her man to believe her that she still wants him, she’s going to have to go beyond mere lip service if she wants him to stick around. It sucks that she’s paying for the sins for others, but that’s really how it is

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2753-dating-unemployed-men-women.html

Mike C

I know that they are real, no denial at all

but they need to be put in context

I hear that taking the pill increases the risk of thrombosis and other medical issues, but clearly a lot of women look at the overall rate and take the pill for its convenience (or whatever reason that they chose).

basically
doubling a risk of sfa* means nothing
doubling the risk in Russian Roulette is a whole different ballgame

Surely you get that?

Just1Z, absolutely right. There are two things, severity of outcome, and probability of outcome.

Whether “doubling” is consequential or not depends on the starting base rate you are doubling off of.

Doubling from 20% to 40% incidence would be very, very, very, very material.

Doubling from .01% to .02% is utterly inconsequential.

As a side point, I’ve noticed an uptick in wanting to equate the male and female timelines which I think is part of the feminine imperative related to “age appropriateness”. I’ll admit I haven’t studied it in detail, but I throw a low wager bet off the top of my head that a 35-year old woman has a much higher risk of stuff she can pass to offspring than a 35-year old man.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

As a side point, I’ve noticed an uptick in wanting to equate the male and female timelines which I think is part of the feminine imperative related to “age appropriateness”. I’ll admit I haven’t studied it in detail, but I throw a low wager bet off the top of my head that a 35-year old woman has a much higher risk of stuff she can pass to offspring than a 35-year old man.

Experts said that the finding was hardly reason to forgo fatherhood later in life, though it may have some influence on reproductive decisions. The overall risk to a man in his 40s or older is in the range of 2 percent, at most, and there are other contributing biological factors that are entirely unknown.

But the study, published online in the journal Nature, provides support for the argument that the surging rate of autism diagnoses over recent decades is attributable in part to the increasing average age of fathers, which could account for as many as 20 to 30 percent of cases.

The findings also counter the longstanding assumption that the age of the mother is the most important factor in determining the odds of a child having developmental problems. The risk of chromosomal abnormalities, like Down syndrome, increases for older mothers, but when it comes to some complex developmental and psychiatric problems, the lion’s share of the genetic risk originates in the sperm, not the egg, the study found.

Previous studies had strongly suggested as much, including an analysis published in April that found that this risk was higher at age 35 than 25 and crept up with age. The new report quantifies that risk for the first time, calculating how much it accumulates each year.

The research team found that the average child born to a 20-year-old father had 25 random mutations that could be traced to paternal genetic material. The number increased steadily by two mutations a year, reaching 65 mutations for offspring of 40-year-old men.

The average number of mutations coming from the mother’s side was 15, no matter her age, the study found.

…Some difference between the paternal and maternal side is to be expected. Sperm cells divide every 15 days or so, whereas egg cells are relatively stable, and continual copying inevitably leads to errors, in DNA as in life.

Still, when the researchers removed the effect of paternal age, they found no difference in genetic risk between those who had a diagnosis of autism or schizophrenia and a control group of Icelanders who did not. “It is absolutely stunning that the father’s age accounted for all this added risk, given the possibility of environmental factors and the diversity of the population,” said Dr. Kari Stefansson, the chief executive of Decode and the study’s senior author. “And it’s stunning that so little is contributed by the age of the mother.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/health/fathers-age-is-linked-to-risk-of-autism-and-schizophrenia.html?_r=2&hp&

If you don’t care for these findings, you will be happy to know it’s just a study, and Badger says you can disregard it.

Lokland

@Mike C

“I suspect if it was commonly understood there was no limitation on the creation of dollars to pay government obligations the fear is the populace would in fact demand it.”

I have zero training in economics and even I know that printing of bills without allowing for value increases in the dollar results in cash that is utterly worthless.

Not a huge deal if you just buy-sell within your own borders but an economy that imports nearly all of its needs cannot have a worthless currency.

Lokland

@Mike C

“I’ll admit I haven’t studied it in detail, but I throw a low wager bet off the top of my head that a 35-year old woman has a much higher risk of stuff she can pass to offspring than a 35-year old man.”

Its a no contest really.
To even equate the two as equal in some way is an insult to thinking creatures. (Which has not been done here, yet.)

However, there is a decrease (duh, shit stops working with age). I have never heard of anyone speak of declining male fertility and male age related defects in progeny before the age of 40 however.

Escoffier

“Europe”–which really means France, Germany and the Brussells elite–most assuredly does control its currency even if other individual countries do not.

Sure we can try to inflate the debt away the but the overall effect will be the same, just from a different cause, our creditors will howl (then bail) and the dollar will become worthless.

Leaving aside all the money details, the fundmental point is that we have made promises to people re: their standards of living and of benificent government that the laws of economics will not allow us to keep.

INTJ

@ Ted D

Fact is, many men are “checking out” of society for the same reason. But instead of committing suicide, they are playing Xbox and passing the time.

This goes back to how lazy bums are able to deal with the current situation better than driven men.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@Just1Z

Can’t you two just grab a couple of beers and chill?

Heh, maybe when the boy matures into a man!
If he keeps providing the ammo, I might as well use it…
What Mr. Wizard calls straw men = quoting him with his foot in his mouth. Ad hominems = pointing out willful ignorance, PC-style.

PS: I think I’m a moderate ISFJ or something like that…

Mike C

“Europe”–which really means France, Germany and the Brussells elite–most assuredly does control its currency even if other individual countries do not.

It is a fascinating topic who really has the power here. Many of the French and German banks carry the sovereign debt of the PIGS nations on their balance sheet. There is the old joke that if I owe $10,000 to the bank, I am at risk, but if I owe $10,000,000 the bank is at risk. The idea of a monetary union without a fiscal union from Day 1 was insanity. One potential outcome is Germany and France bail, go back to their original currencies, and leave the PIGS to inflate their debt away with trillions upon trillions of newly created Euros.

Sure we can try to inflate the debt away the but the overall effect will be the same, just from a different cause, our creditors will howl (then bail) and the dollar will become worthless.

Leaving aside all the money details, the fundmental point is that we have made promises to people re: their standards of living and of benificent government that the laws of economics will not allow us to keep.

Agreed. The one saving grace might be some sort of quantum leap forward in overall productivity. Thought experiment. If you had limitless cheap energy, and could provide healthcare at a fraction of the current cost, then theoretically you might be able to support a very large elder retired population with a high standard of living with a much smaller amount of younger workers. I don’t think that is impossible. Who knows what technological progress could happen in the next 2-3 decades?

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@INTJ

I don’t think I’m communicating very clearly. See Ted D’s post to see what I was talking about.

Ted communicated very clearly. Someone just doesn’t like responding to direct questions. Susan’s been over this stuff before, multiple times. College-educated women report the lowest N of any other educational level (lifetime median = 3).

93% of them were either virgins, or had 0-1 partners over a 1-year period. Don’t like gov’t statistics? Too bad. Make up your own if you want. Time to move on, quit worrying so much, and find a GF!

Tasmin

@HanSolo
“OTOH, the checked-out men need to stop being such pussies and find some inner drive that is meaningful to them and do it. ”

One could argue that many of those “checked-out” men are by definition acknowledging that inner drive and its incongruence with the accepted, expected, and judging-labeling conditions of the society from which they are checking out. While I’m big on personal responsibility and have little time for whining and entitlement, I stop at the point of calling someone a pussy because they have done their math or otherwise calculated the cost-benefit of what they believe to be of value to themselves and to society and consider the corresponding risks and costs to them in their conclusion of: “fuck it”.

Sure some guys are lazy piles, but were not really talking about them in this case, are we? We are talking about men who desire a productive and rewarding place in this world, about men who wish to share the rewards of their work but have found themselves in a position that greatly challenges how they view their ability to achieve those very things and thus how they see – and value themselves in light of those challenges and how that impacts their relationships. Tangents onto the extremes of suicidal and/or lazy or apathetic men is not particularly relevant or helpful IMO.

In fact, I give those “checking out” guys the same benefit of doubt that I give all of the men who occupy the expected societal roles with fervor even though I know full well that a great many of them are complete shadows, empty-suits, and dark players who give little to others, extract all that they can from the world, and leverage every opportunity to serve their needs and wants. Yet those men are somehow able to maintain a defined role and place in society – often a place of high status, almost entirely by the nature of their career and all that it affords them in terms of economic and social benefit. Of them, there are many. But somehow no one ever tells them to “man up”, which is essentially what your comment seems to distill down to.

As a side note, with few rare exceptions I equate suicide with depression, with illness, and illness is not a choice and therefore not a true reflection of one’s worth or “bravery”. Growing up with a mentally-ill mother taught me more than I ever wanted to know about that. And instilled in me a great deal of empathy for those who are – be it temporarily or perpetually lacking the fundamental ability to create and sustain their own positive and/or rational thoughts. A brother returning from two wars pretty much set that in stone for me as well. You seem good hearted enough, but you are missing *something*.

Escoffier

Mike, we seem to have been technologically stagnating for about 40 years. I know that sounds crazy in the so-called “information age” but really all the great advances of my lifetime were either medical or else IT and those boil down to three: the PC, the cell/smart phone, and the Internet. In every other way we have done close to nothing, or else regressed.

The next great frontier might be genome/biotech but that is scary stuff. I certainly don’t foresee any great techno leaps that will enable us to pay for this Leviathan state, and anyway, a big proble (THE big problem) with the Leviathan state is not that it’s expensive, it’s that it saps the virtue of the people which is the foundation for such innovation in the first place. Vicious cycle.

This was all predicted by Tocqueville, Nietszche and others, to say nothing of Plato, Xenophon and Aristotle.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Yes, but it was alse done by females.

Yeah people ofter forget how hard housework was before the advent of modern technology the expression “I spent all day in the kitchen cooking” was not a metaphor.

One moment, when Jason started to shot at the harpies my daughter suddenly declared “and now harpies realise they were wrong and they became good and they will have children“.

Heh that is so cute.

That sounds like a lovely day! Those small pleasures are the best. Coconut Anise bread sounds delicious – will google.

There are variations but not the one we have in the family. I would pass it on to you but my mom told me that the recipe is cursed for non blood relatives, I don’t believe in witchcraft but it exist nevertheless

I’m opening a Hobgoblin* as I write

GOOD! He deserves it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin_%28comics%29

JP

“You seem good hearted enough, but you are missing *something*.”

Professional experience with the mentally ill.

JP

Regarding Fun with Economics:

Recent Jeremy Grantham Report:

“On the Road to Zero Growth”

http://www.gmo.com/websitecontent/JG_LetterALL_11-12.pdf

Recent John Hussman Report, talking about the Jeremy Grantham Report:

“Grantham argued that “The U.S. GDP growth rate that we have become accustomed to for over a hundred years – in excess of 3% a year – is not just hiding behind temporary setbacks. It is gone forever. Yet most business people (and the Fed) assume that economic growth will recover to its old rates… Going forward, GDP growth (conventionally measured) for the U.S. is likely to be about only 1.4% a year, and adjusted growth about 0.9%…The bottom line for U.S. real growth, according to our forecast, is 0.9% a year through 2030, decreasing to 0.4% from 2030 to 2050. This is all done presuming no unexpected disasters, but also no heroics, just normal “muddling through.” (h/t Business Insider).”

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc121126.htm

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Tasmin, ironically, when my husband and I met each other, we had both basically given up on love, and resolved that we would be okay being single.

You may think yourself this that or the other, but there will always be time and opportunity. I hope you find the right one for you.

INTJ

Ted communicated very clearly. Someone just doesn’t like responding to direct questions. Susan’s been over this stuff before, multiple times. College-educated women report the lowest N of any other educational level (lifetime median = 3).

93% of them were either virgins, or had 0-1 partners over a 1-year period.

Well this proves part of what I said: that a significant portion of the women are foregoing relationships during this time. Now the question is, of those that don’t forgo relationships, who’re they having relationships with? I betcha many of these boyfriends score high on the asshole spectrum.

Time to move on, quit worrying so much, and find a GF!

I don’t want a GF…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

I don’t want a GF…

What??? Are you saying you want to go straight to engaged?

INTJ

@ Susan

One moment, when Jason started to shot at the harpies my daughter suddenly declared “and now harpies realise they were wrong and they became good and they will have children“.

Just re-noticed this. Barefoot and pregnant harpies?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Just re-noticed this. Barefoot and pregnant harpies?

That was szopen’s comment.

JP

With respect to innovations and economy, I recommend thinking about the innovation waves on S curves as pointed out by Harry Dent.

Here’s one of Mike Alexander’s old articles:

“By looking at the timing of important basic innovations we can obtain an idea of when each economic cycle began. Figure 4 shows the composite innovations from Figure 2 along with more invention data for earlier periods. Four periods of enhanced innovation can be identified, which are coincident with four major innovations. The first cluster is centered in the 1770’s and is associated with the early textile manufacturing innovations that comprise the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. A second cluster, centered in the 1830’s, is associated with the development of the railroad. The third cluster centered in the 1900’s is associated with the development of the automobile and other mass-market consumer products. A fourth cluster of innovations in the 1970’s and 1980’s is associated with the internet and personal computer revolution. Like Dent’s spending wave, the periods of heightened entrepreneurial activity designated by these clusters of innovations can be thought of as an innovation wave that periodically surges through the economy, beginning a new economic cycle. Table 1 lists the four economic cycles initiated by the four innovation waves…”

http://www.safehaven.com/article/71/the-innovation-wave-and-secular-market-trends

The next wave is the biotechnology wave, I think. We’re in the innovation bust phase of the process at this point because of the current flatlining of the IT wave and the lack of power being supplied by the biotech wave.

Both of which should go into expansion phases in the future.

HanSolo

@Tasmin

I do have empathy for men, both the corporate drones who live in gilded or at least bronze cages and the checked-out video gamers. I think my posts usually are slightly biased in mens’ favor because I see the difficulty that the changing world and S/MMP has brought them.

However, in the case of Susan’s friend’s ex, I see a man who threw away a seemingly great woman in order to salve his pride, in an era when many men are finding it difficult to find such an empathetic and loving woman (assuming she really is as described and perceived by him as the best thing he’s had happen to him in months).

Instead of taking the easy path out he should be a man and fight through it with her at her side.

Lokland

@Tas

Question what would be worse?
To question your own value enough to end the relationship with the person who believes in your potential value?
Or
To question your own value without having anyone offer any affirmation of your value, you subsequently increase your value and suddenly everybody is standing there, bleating their affirmations on how awesome you are and how they knew you could do it?

INTJ

I think you Susan and the commenters might enjoy reading this old newspaper article from 1958. The rhetoric sounds eerily familiar.

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=c3QzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ruIDAAAAIBAJ&dq=barefoot-and-pregnant&pg=6821%2C3738371

Mike C

However, in the case of Susan’s friend’s ex, I see a man who threw away a seemingly great woman in order to salve his pride, in an era when many men are finding it difficult to find such an empathetic and loving woman (assuming she really is as described and perceived by him as the best thing he’s had happen to him in months).

Instead of taking the easy path out he should be a man and fight through it with her at her side.

Han,

I’m not sure we know enough to definitively conclude he threw away a relationship with a great women. I think it was Susan who had a comment referencing that Blue movie and the risk to her. Perhaps he senses quite correctly that she really isn’t in it for the long haul and *truly* committed and he’d rather pull the plug now given his circumstances rather then her pull the plug down the road when she wakes up one day and realizes she cannot be with a man of his status/career.

When I met my now fiancee, I was NOT full-time professionally employed. I was bouncing, doing some other stuff that didn’t produce enough income, and living with my parents. That unemployment actually lasted a considerable length of time. It never dawned on me for a second to drop my relationship. One, I brought a lot of value in many other ways besides income/career status, and more importantly I truly believed she was WITH ME THE PERSON, not me the potential “success/status object”.

I’m speculating but perhaps he is picking up the slightest whiffs of that in the air. She may be supportive but hinting that he needs to get the career/income stuff on track ASAP.

HanSolo

@Tasmin

What I’m really saying is that people need to come to a deeper understanding of what is meaningful to them, both men and women. Corporate-drone or even high achieving men need to realize that they have value outside of their jobs. The checked-out men need to realize that they can likely find something more meaningful to them and pursue it. Women need to realize that they don’t need to follow the herd, they don’t need to follow the feminist/academic alpha mares that promote the career-over-love-and-family and the pop-culture alpha mares that sell images and songs of promiscuous pleasure and slutty empowerment.

The use of the word ‘pussy’ may have been excessive but it was used in the moment of feeling the emotion that, yes, there are forces arrayed against men but that we are not just helpless victims and need to arise and find our inner purpose and follow it (note, not man up for women’s sake but for our own, though women will like many of us better for having done so).

So both the corporate drone who is selling his soul and his time to follow the script that he doesn’t believe in or the video-game underachiever who is rebelling against that meaningless script but hasn’t come up with any script of his own and just defaults into video-game escapism both need to realize that life is short and that it can be meaningful when you realize what your purpose and goals are and follow it.

This is not to say that men can’t have a good reason to stay in their drone job if it’s for some purpose that is meaningful to them or they actually like that job. It’s not to say that someone couldn’t be following their purpose in enjoying life and their way of enjoying it is video games.

HanSolo

@Tasmin 529

I basically agree with your points and explained more of what I was getting at in my previous two comments to you just now.

Cheers, and I enjoy reading what you have to say.

Mike C

What I’m really saying is that people need to come to a deeper understanding of what is meaningful to them, both men and women. Corporate-drone or even high achieving men need to realize that they have value outside of their jobs. The checked-out men need to realize that they can likely find something more meaningful to them and pursue it. Women need to realize that they don’t need to follow the herd, they don’t need to follow the feminist/academic alpha mares that promote the career-over-love-and-family and the pop-culture alpha mares that sell images and songs of promiscuous pleasure and slutty empowerment.

Amen. Han, perfectly said. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how many people are capable of the introspection necessary to really understand what is meaningful to them. It can be a scary process as well. In a strange way, it can be easier to live life according to the various expectations foisted upon you. When you toss them into the trash, you have to figure out what to put in the vacuum/void that now exists.

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

Re: debt bombs. I share the concern of many here and as a result have a series of long-term “convexity” trades either currently active or planned.

An interesting aspect of these things is how sensitive the system becomes to interest rate shifts; Italy went from “muddling through” to full-blown crisis with an increase of only 100 basis points in its government 10-year rate. The final stage can happen very quickly.

It’s a bit like an insidious form of spring-loaded trap that has three central components :

1) The Bomb: A period of heavy debt/GDP build-up, usually due to a combination of demands for heavy Keynesian stimulus and a cooperative central bank.

2) The Arming: disappointing headline GDP growth numbers make the “hey, we’ll just grow our way out” plan seem rather unlikely. Oh NO!

3) The Trigger: a year-on-year fiscal deficit that is “suddenly” recognized as being so horrendous—within the context of 1 and 2— that interest rates finally start accurately reflecting sovereign risk of default (either through restructuring or through a print-off attempt—rates and the press now enter a sort of drag race).

Ka-boom.

So the multi-decade sovereign debt bacchanalia is the Rigger and a combination of weak growth and a grotesque deficit is the Trigger. The thing is that, at extreme values, these are not independent variables that have to line up like some rare celestial event—debt, weak growth, and rates become linked by feedback processes and can become fated to, eventually, come together in a crisp, KO-thunderous jab-cross-hook to the face.

*(there is a simple equation in macroecon that is used to calculate how large/small a permanent surplus—not just a balanced budget in many modern cases, but an actual fiscal surplus—a country needs to run to try to keep its debt/GDP stable as it enters the endgame state. It’s basically a kind of Austerity/Pain Index that tracks the fiscal discipline that you would need to endure if you actually wanted to slowly pull away from the jaws of the trap).

A lot of guys in my industry see Japan going down hard and first. Few are ready for default in a G7, but I personally have trouble feeling much more than schadenfreude at this point.

INTJ

@ Escoffier

Mike, we seem to have been technologically stagnating for about 40 years. I know that sounds crazy in the so-called “information age” but really all the great advances of my lifetime were either medical or else IT and those boil down to three: the PC, the cell/smart phone, and the Internet. In every other way we have done close to nothing, or else regressed.

I do think humanity as a whole has passed the zenith of technological advancement. All the easy stuff has already been invented, so the pace of technological innovation is going to drop off.

Nevertheless, I’d argue that the Internet alone has been a revolutionary invention that has caused a massive transformation in society.

The next great frontier might be genome/biotech but that is scary stuff. I certainly don’t foresee any great techno leaps that will enable us to pay for this Leviathan state, and anyway, a big proble (THE big problem) with the Leviathan state is not that it’s expensive, it’s that it saps the virtue of the people which is the foundation for such innovation in the first place. Vicious cycle.

I’m hoping advanced manufacturing can pull us out of this mess. I’m certainly putting my money on it as the one remaining hope. http://www.economist.com/node/21552901

HanSolo

@Mike C

Agree we don’t know enough and it is possible she was making him feel shitty about not getting the job or that it was expected. My assumption was more that she was standing by him whether he ever returned to the top 5% or whatever of earners.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Agree we don’t know enough and it is possible she was making him feel shitty about not getting the job or that it was expected. My assumption was more that she was standing by him whether he ever returned to the top 5% or whatever of earners.

Not only did she not make him feel shitty or pressure him in some way, she was his rock. When they broke up he said he didn’t know what he was going to do without her to lean on.

One thing that was hard for her was that his only free time in the entire week were Monday and Tuesday nights. She generally suggested staying in and cooking together, and she often brought provisions or made dinner at her place. Her aim was to make their time together as stress free as possible, and she found ways to be a cheap date and contribute financially where she could. (She knew he was working very hard to keep his condo.) These weeknight dates were not ideal by any means, especially since she gets to work at 6. She did this without complaint, knowing it was beyond his control.

She fell head over heels for this guy, AS IS. She feels certain he will overcome this setback based on his past track record – she is totally in his corner. She feels that Tasmin captured the relationship dynamic and failure very accurately, and she is grateful for the feedback.

Mike C

I’m 100% sure that if my wife was asked a question like “who is the boss in your house?” she would reply that there is no boss because we work together. If I was asked the same question, my reply would be that IF it every came down to someone having to be “the boss”, it would be me.

IMO, if you are doing it right as the guy, this is exactly how it should *seem*. The “boss” should be unstated. IMO, there is a way to lead and be “in charge” without it coming across negatively. I think this will be problematic though if a guy is with a woman who feels the need to “assert her independence”.

Much of this discussion about who is in charge and dominance, etc. is just abstract BSing unless you actually narrow it down to actual examples. I defer to my fiancee on things where I know she is more competent or the issue is of minor importance to me. But if it is a major issue, ultimately I am the “decider” to use a Bushism. Recently, we faced an issue as a couple where I wanted her to increase her monthly 401(k) contribution. Going into this, it really was a given in my mind. There was no alternative outcome without me doing serious questioning about the relationship. It was probably one of the most contentious things we’ve addressed. Ultimately, the dollar increase was equal to what I had wanted.

BroHamlet

@Escoffier & Mike C

“Mike, we seem to have been technologically stagnating for about 40 years. I know that sounds crazy in the so-called “information age” but really all the great advances of my lifetime were either medical or else IT and those boil down to three: the PC, the cell/smart phone, and the Internet. In every other way we have done close to nothing, or else regressed.”

You guys have an interesting line of discussion here. I’ll agree, but qualify this further: Innovation does happen within the constraints of existing paradigms in consumer technology. BUT, the information economy and the products it generates is/are now largely commoditized. We have not created new technology so disruptive as to redefine the basic scope of possibilities for everyday life, and in the process create an entirely new string of opportunities for wealth creation.

Mike C

Re: debt bombs. I share the concern of many here and as a result have a series of long-term “convexity” trades either currently active or planned.

Bastiat, you care to share any?

I know some really smart HF managers are jumping on the short yen trade.

HanSolo

@Mike C

It can be a scary process as well. In a strange way, it can be easier to live life according to the various expectations foisted upon you. When you toss them into the trash, you have to figure out what to put in the vacuum/void that now exists.

Very scary. I have experienced this myself in the last 5 or 6 years, but not in a way related to career. Prior to leaving the Mormon church my main purpose in life was wanting to follow the vision of God and Christ that I had found by my intense involvement there. It was the center of my life. Goodness, God and Church and my life’s purpose were all molded together. After certain life experiences and realizations, this beautiful and deeply meaningful world view was shattered. Some of the pieces remain, like having a loving family some day, the conviction that love (both romantic and charity) are the most meaningful ways to live life, and wanting to help the world be better. However, that underlying spiritual reason for why and my certainty about that spiritual realm have been replaced by dim assertion that there probably is a divine being out there in some fashion or other, hoping rather than knowing that providence reveals its hand at times.

Mike C

You guys have an interesting line of discussion here. I’ll agree, but qualify this further: Innovation does happen within the constraints of existing paradigms in consumer technology. BUT, the information economy and the products it generates is/are now largely commoditized. We have not created new technology so disruptive as to redefine the basic scope of possibilities for everyday life, and in the process create an entirely new string of opportunities for wealth creation.

The thing is IMO both with regards to innovation and the “unsustainable promises” is that it mostly lies in health care. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I’d guess that a very large amount of the economic value provided from younger workers to the older retired is in the form of health care services. I am living this right now, as I have a parent who has been hospitalized for nearly 2 months. The potential costs are literally mind boggling. A rough estimate so far is probably around $2 million in costs for the last 60 days.

There simply has to be a better way to deliver the same quality of healthcare at much lower cost. I have no idea what that is, but hopefully greater minds will figure something out over the next 10-20 years.

JP

“However, that underlying spiritual reason for why and my certainty about that spiritual realm have been replaced by dim assertion that there probably is a divine being out there in some fashion or other, hoping rather than knowing that providence reveals its hand at times.”

Whereas I kind of have the opposite problem, spiritually speaking. A certain class of experiences will lead to a certain class of knowing.

In any event, Mormonism has some issues as they relate to the fact that they want things to be true that simply aren’t true. Nothing worse than an an inflexible TBM in your family if you are on the outs with the church, though.

I generally don’t have a problem with their general moral structure. I just don’t like groups that are too insular.

HanSolo

@JP

I still remember all my spiritual experiences. It is simply the interpretation that I am now uncertain about. Back then I thought it meant that God lives, the Church is true, therefore I must and want to follow it. Now, I don’t know whether or not they really were from God, made up psychologically (though perceived as very real) or some mix.

My family is pretty open-minded though and I have other siblings who have left and some who have stayed. We got along well.

And stating certain things as true that eventually came to my awareness of not (likely) being true was one of the key factors in my leaving, in spite of liking many of the other things.

JP

“And stating certain things as true that eventually came to my awareness of not (likely) being true was one of the key factors in my leaving, in spite of liking many of the other things.”

Yeah, they really need to stop doing this. It’s kind of annoying. If you want to call something mythic or transcendent, fine, you just don’t get to make up your own facts.

However, since the religion was born of a Great Awakening in Protestant America, that’s probably going to be hard for them to do.

However, it strikes me as a perfectly serviceable religion as far as that goes. I have a much more favorable view of it now than I did when I had a Mormon girlfriend.

HanSolo

@Susan

Can you follow up with your friend to find more of the details if he really loved her or was just not into her? And whether she was making it explicitly or implicitly known that he had to achieve a high-status job again to be good enough for her?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@HanSolo

Can you follow up with your friend to find more of the details if he really loved her or was just not into her? And whether she was making it explicitly or implicitly known that he had to achieve a high-status job again to be good enough for her?

I’ve pretty much addressed the latter. I’ll add that when they broke up he told her that while he couldn’t stand the thought of her with another guy, he believed she deserved someone better. He also said, “You need to trust me on this. I am doing this for you.” I know they both cried.

OTOH, they never got to the point of saying I love you. The interest was mutual and strong from the outset, and they saw each other every single week for the duration. But it was obvious the circumstances were difficult and both acknowledged the timing was terrible, but they wanted to date anyway. It was when she forced the issue of where they were headed that it blew up, which was inevitable.

Lokland

@Susan

“The average number of mutations coming from the mother’s side was 15, no matter her age, the study found.”

AHHHHHH fucking my head of things.

Thats because an older mother has problems with chromosomal sorting which leads to ploidy numbers resulting in miscarriage/Down syndrome.

You can’t have mutation when your sitting their not dividing. AHHHHHH.

Ploidy is significantly worse than single point mutations occurring within an individual sperm of which their are millions. (65/3.2 billion) as the result is effective of only a few sperm which if the mutation is negative enough will prevent them from reaching the egg in the first place.

Moms problem tend to prevent a baby ever being born, mens tend to produce minor physiological/psychiatric changes which may or may not be negative.

Which is worse?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Moms problem tend to prevent a baby ever being born, mens tend to produce minor physiological/psychiatric changes which may or may not be negative.

How could an unborn child be a greater problem than a child with birth defects? Furthermore, schizophrenia, epilepsy and autism are hardly minor changes.

Mike C

If you don’t care for these findings, you will be happy to know it’s just a study, and Badger says you can disregard it.

Haha….no I am not going to disregard it unless I spent alot more time reviewing it.

Here’s the thing. There are all sorts of studies that demonstrate all sorts of contradictory things. You have scientists producing studies on both sides of the global warming issue. You have studies that contradict regarding things like Paleo/low-carb diet versus high carb/low fat diet.

Escoffier has pointed this out before but sometimes you have to use your basic smell test when a study suggests something that on the surface appears unlikely such as this:

“It is absolutely stunning that the father’s age accounted for all this added risk, given the possibility of environmental factors and the diversity of the population,” said Dr. Kari Stefansson, the chief executive of Decode and the study’s senior author. “And it’s stunning that so little is contributed by the age of the mother.”

Now maybe this is correct in that autism is only on the Y chromosome. I don’t know. I am not a geneticist. I believe I recall reading something that Down’s sydrome is highly correlated with mother’s age.

More broadly speaking, this is an example of what I find difficult in discussing with you. I make a general point equating overall risk between a 35 year old man and 35-year old woman, and you answer back with a very narrow example about autism, and dodge the more general point which I’d note Lokland answered that only a non-thinking person would disagree with this and he has the background in this area:

Its a no contest really.
To even equate the two as equal in some way is an insult to thinking creatures. (Which has not been done here, yet.)

So again, your response gives the impression that you simply want to try to find some microscopic hole to take the opposite side of whatever I say.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

More broadly speaking, this is an example of what I find difficult in discussing with you. I make a general point equating overall risk between a 35 year old man and 35-year old woman, and you answer back with a very narrow example about autism, and dodge the more general point which I’d note Lokland answered that only a non-thinking person would disagree with this and he has the background in this area

You seem to have a great deal of difficulty dealing in anything but literal statements of fact. Nuance and subtlety is completely lost on you. I feel like I’m trying to talk to Siri or something.

You are misinformed.

Your general comment followed recent specific comments and links here about fathers and autism. It appears to be in response to that – as I know of no other research that suggests males contribute to birth defects. IOW, you were referencing research without even being aware of that, apparently. My response alluding to that research was sensible.

I did not dodge the more general point – in fact I bolded the part about the risk being 2%, a rather minor amount.

As for Lokland’s background, who’s trotting out the credentials now?

Lokland trumping the New York Times? I don’t think so. The fact that he has background is irrelevant, as I have no specific knowledge of his credentials or experience with male genetic mutations.

Normally you make narrow points and get discombobulated by the general. Here you’ve addressed the general and been thrown by the specific. I do not think in these sorts of narrow straits, I’m afraid. I don’t speak in binary. If you’re going to leave pissy comments on the blog, e.g. *feminine imperative*, expect pushback Susan Style. If you don’t like it, well…

Mike C

Susan,

OK, question for you…..putting aside the specific incidence of just autism and schizophrenia, is it your position that a 35-year old man and 35-year old woman are of equal risk in terms of fertility and the genetics they are passing along, the man is of greater risk, or the woman is of greater risk?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

is it your position that a 35-year old man and 35-year old woman are of equal risk in terms of fertility and the genetics they are passing along, the man is of greater risk, or the woman is of greater risk?

While advanced maternal age is a major cause behind rare chromosomal problems such as Down syndrome in babies, the latest findings add to growing evidence suggesting that at conception it is the father’s age— rather than the mother’s—that is the main factor behind the passing of new hereditary mutations to children.

…The latest paper focuses on spontaneous changes in genetic coding known as de novo—or new—mutations.

These errors aren’t inherited from the parental lineage. Instead, these mistakes occur only in eggs or sperm cells, or just after fertilization. In such cases, children will carry a genetic mutation in every cell without there being any family history of that particular alteration.

Sperm pick up more of these genetic spelling errors because, unlike eggs, they are constantly produced and go through many more cell divisions. Sperm from older men carry more errors.

…A deleterious de novo error can especially affect brain functioning in children. That may be because more genes are expressed in the brain than in any other organ.

Several years ago, scientists reported that a man over 40 is almost six times as likely as a man under 30 to father an autistic child. Research has also shown that kids of older fathers are at higher risk of schizophrenia, bipolarity and epilepsy. One 2009 study suggested a link between late fatherhood and weaker performance by children in intelligence tests.

Wall St. Journal, Older Dads Pass on More Genetic Mutations

This article suggests that the variable of male age has much greater effect than female age in producing harmful genetic mutations. I have no personal knowledge of the subject.

INTJ

@ Susan

That was szopen’s comment.

Oh I substituted Susan for szopen. Freudian slip I guess.

INTJ

@ Susan

What??? Are you saying you want to go straight to engaged?

Nope. But I need to make the distinction. I’m only interested in a relationship that is intended to become permanent. Most girls my age, especially the ones that don’t go for older men, are only interested in serial monogamy. I don’t want a serial monogamist GF.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Most girls my age, especially the ones that don’t go for older men, are only interested in serial monogamy. I don’t want a serial monogamist GF.

OK, that’s your right, but that’s a very tall order. Is arranged marriage an option?

JP

So, you want an Engaged-Friend?

Or a Marriage-Friend?

This is a job for a good lexicographer.

Our society is demanding a word for girls who are willing to get engaged and not just dating for serial monogamy so that people like INTJ can use proper terminology.

“Girlfriend with Benefits”?

No. Doesn’t sound right.

“Courtship Girlfriend”?

Hmmm.

“Pre-Nuptial Girlfriend”?

JP

Well, Pre-Nuptual Girlfriend sounds the least stupid of what I’ve been able to come up with in the last 5 minutes.

So, it’s settled.

INFJ wants a Pre-Nuptial Girlfriend, a “PNG”.

JP

INTJ. Sorry.

Damien Vulaume

@JP: “Our society is demanding a word for girls who are willing to get engaged and not just dating for serial monogamy so that people like INTJ can use proper terminology.”
Ha-ha-ha-ha! Good one!
After the DTR and the FWB, now, ladies and gentlemen, you will love the NSMGFWB, aka the non serial monogamy girlfriend with benefits… Er, no, it’s too long.

A Definite Beta Guy

Warning…Long Post…

What’s wrong with being barefoot and pregnant? People seem to think we want a return to the 1950s. This is absolutely not what anyone here wants. We want a restructuring of social institutions and social mores to something family-friendly and more conservative.

Instead we get a socially destructive UMC-Script.

Here’s how I would picture a more “ideal” life occurring.

2008: ADBG is in his second year of work at Fortune 50 company as Accountant. He started out as an intern after finishing his 2 year Associate Degree in Accounting/Finance/Business, and his manager likes him a lot, so she is giving him management training classes. In the evening he takes E-MBA classes at Northwestern, half paid by Fortune 50 Company, half paid by ADBG.

Pretty UMC Girl has also recently graduated, with a 4 year degree, and a moderate amount of debt. She has recently started teaching mathematics to high schoolers, which is her dream job, and has a busy, yet not entirely fulfilling, life of tutoring and cooking classes and speech classes during her evenings.

Pretty UMC Girl and ADBG meet through ADBG’s neighbor, who happens to be UMC Girl’s Best Friend. They hit it off, they start dating in a traditional matter and a few months later become official.

2010: Marriage after a suitable courtship and ADBG and Mrs. ADBG move to an affordable house. Combing gross income by this time is well over $100,000 a year, and Mrs. ADBG’s debt is paid for. Both have been saving up for years, so they can have a nice wedding and are comfortable.

2010-2012: Mrs. ADBG is working part-time, 30 hours a week, and using her extra time to do chores while ADBG works some extra hours and takes a few extra classes. Mrs. ADBG makes some real impressive dinners most nights: turns out she is quite the chef, although she hates cleaning dishes, so ADBG cleans those (he really likes that).

ADBG isn’t a bad cook himself, and always cooks breakfast. Also likes to vacuum. Hates doing laundry, so he won’t touch that.

In the evenings they like to take acting and improv comedy classes. ADBG also likes to entertain and makes drinks for everyone. Mrs. ADBG doesn’t like this, he spends too much money and it’s taxing for Mrs. ADBG to be sociable, so ADBG makes it up by spending lots of time with her family.

They go on 3 different vacations, and have one new and one used car!

2012: Mrs. ADBG is barefoot and pregnant and as she reaches her 6th or 7th month she starts taking a lighter schedule. When she gives birth, there are two sets of living grandparents within an hour drive, each more than willing to watch a little tyke if the ADBGs want a night out or another vacation by themselves. Oh, and ADBG’s brother is stable in a nice union job after his 2 years of technical school, with a child on the way, and ADBG’s sister now has a 2 year old…the dad is Stay At Home, which is unusual, but fine, because the mother is making lots of money as a pharmacist.

What about this is so terrible?

Instead we get brow-beat into a UMC script for no discernible reason with broken economic functions for no damn reason. My SO WANTED to be a math teacher: this was deemed “not enough,” because she was a Top 20 student from an elite high school with near-perfect GPA. So instead she decided to become a pharmacist, which I guess is more “succesful” because she gets to call herself “Doctor.”

She also went out of state to do it, because that’s also in the Elite UMC script. She mentioned numerous times, oh my, my sister was a Valedictorian, and oh my she is going to CORNELL, and she’s going to go into GREEN ENGINEERING. How cool that is! How successful!

And you are just going to be a lousy math teacher…that’s…cute!

Pharmacy laws were changed in a lot of states, from being a 2 year post-grad to a 4 year post grad. My sister was one of the last in a 2 year program, so she got away with a LOT less debt. My SO went to school for 7 years. Out of state.

Pharmacy is also horribly bloated, so, after taxes and loans, she is actually making LESS money than she would have if she were a teacher. Now instead of a Top 20 student educating your children in a highly critical field, you have a Top 20 student providing useless healthcare to geriatrics. Oh, and instead of going to school for a reasonable 3 years and then pursuing additional education after getting a job as needed, she spent 7 years of her life learning a lot of stuff she didn’t need, when we all know we could have gotten away with less time spent in stupid classes than that.

This is not a wise investment of society’s scarce resources.

It also does not bode well for family formation, since she had to move out of state for a job and has huge amounts of debt.

All because UMC-Script says “you have to be a doctor/lawyer/business VP.”

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.

You seem to think, though, that the conservative guys here are railing for a return to women not going to school and chaperoned dates. I guess it’s wonderful to paint our position as a caricature, but really we are attacking your UMC-script, in its entirety, including some of its relationship advice, for the following reason:

It sucks.

Policy and norms should be overhauled to prioritize family formation.

I’m probably over-generalizing substantially, but that’s my current thought, and it has nothing to do at all with putting women back into the kitchen. It has nothing to do with wife-y doing all the chores.

I am pretty sure most of the other guys would agree.

I just have a giant axe to grind with the UMC nonsense. They pretend to be open-minded and, in my experience, require their children to follow a strict script.

Tasmin

@Han 542
Thanks for the follow-up, I agree with your thoughts. The challenge is that we develop our sense of self and purpose based on certain images and internalized values that are provided to us, images and reinforcement that is often well out of alignment with our own sense of value, i.e. many of the socio and biological contradictions we discuss here.

There are a lot of men and women who – for many reasons, have not developed a healthy sense of self in terms of confidence, purpose, drive, etc. Almost all of them will bring this into relationships. Relationships often end because of this; it is just not as visible, the cause is often attributed to something else.

When and how our sense of self develops varies widely and unfortunately relationships can feed into – or be fed into this process along the way. This is no different than any of the other things that make us “ready” for a relationship. The skill of self-awareness, the ability to have insulated or independent self-worth, and to create and follow through on our sense of purpose or direction are developed over time and tested through challenges.

Ideally we find partners that recognize those things in us, vice-versa, and we find ways in which we deploy those things into the world in exchange for all kinds of utility. When we find this we hang on but we also can’t discount the significance of a man’s career in terms of his sense of self and value solely in light of a woman who sees value of him outside of that career. He needs to find his value on his own.

This is a difficult task when we consider that we continue to SHOW a man what counts but TELL him what REALLY counts is something else. He is free to discover what counts on his own and then chose how to engage going forward, but that process of discovery will often take a toll. A toll that many people just won’t pay. This isn’t a whole lot different than the blue pill red pill.

INTJ

@ ADBG

Holy crap that post was brilliant.

INTJ

@ JP

I think I prefer courtship girlfriend (CGF). Pre-nuptial girlfriend (PNG) sounds like we’re writing a prenup agreement, and the acronym reminds me of a popular image compression format.

Tasmin

And concerning the man and woman in question, there is also the chance she is sending him messages that we are not privy to. That she is indicating timelines or expectations or is holding something up of value that he feels he must reclaim or else face a similar fate (breakup, loss of attraction, respect, resentment) down the road or is in the process of realizing that he does not value that/those things in the same way as her anymore and is realizing a newfound divergence in core values. And is basically preempting what he sees as the inevitable.

A Definite Beta Guy

INTJ, I wish I could say it was epic too, but it was just a rant at the nonsense I see.

The UMC has a lot of positive aspects, I like it, it just needs to be tweaked. I don’t like my position being characterized as 50s Trad-Con, ESPECIALLY since so many of my friends are minorities or immigrants. And would have not fared well in that environment.

JP

@INTJ:

“I think I prefer courtship girlfriend (CGF). Pre-nuptial girlfriend (PNG) sounds like we’re writing a prenup agreement, and the acronym reminds me of a popular image compression format.”

The problem is that Courtship Girlfriend sounds Victorian.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The problem is that Courtship Girlfriend sounds Victorian.

That’s because it is. What INTJ wants/expects has not been the norm since the 1920s.

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

ADBG…”Pharmacy laws were changed in a lot of states, from being a 2 year post-grad to a 4 year post grad.”

The endless (and often pointless) increase of educational requirements is of course happening in a lot of other fields, too.

But look at the bright side.

Her 7 years of college (probably resulting in significant student loans, I would guess) not only provided employment to professors, it also provided quite lucrative employment to a whole raft of college administrators, who otherwise would have had to endure the emotional pain of looking for productive work.

JP

@ADBG:

“All because UMC-Script says “you have to be a doctor/lawyer/business VP.”””

Ok.

Once again.

“Lawyer” is *not* a UMC profession at this point.

It’s UMC for BigLaw and some others, but it’s not UMC for most lawyers.

Lawyers aren’t wealthy as a general rule.

Susan knows about the law school grad being a babysitter or whatnot. This is happening everywhere in lawland.

Yes, I was immune to this because I graduated during the dot-com boom. But that was 12 years ago. It’s different now.

Law is most likely a financial/career death-trap for the poor 1L’s in today’s world.

Medicine is still UMC. It’s cool for the UMCers.

One of the Dual-Docs we’re friends with already has 4 kids.

A Definite Beta Guy

Oh believe me JP, I know. Our mutual friend that introduced is a lawyer, too, which seems to have the primary benefit of not having to go to jury duty.

Most 18 year olds and I imagine most college students do not know this. SO’s sister wants to go to law school, too.

JP

@David Foster:

“Her 7 years of college (probably resulting in significant student loans, I would guess) not only provided employment to professors, it also provided quite lucrative employment to a whole raft of college administrators, who otherwise would have had to endure the emotional pain of looking for productive work.”

Here’s a recent commentary from Paul Campos’s blog regarding law school. Specifically the future tuition given the new PAYE repayment system:

The defenders of PAYE underestimate, in my view, the following factors:

(1) The effect of PAYE on the cost of law school. If PAYE is employed widely by law graduates, this will encourage law schools to keep raising tuition, since the debt incurred by law students will come to be viewed by both them and law schools as essentially a form of monopoly money. (The tuition paid by these students will, however, remain delightfully real). This will destroy any possibility of law schools reforming their cost structures in such a way as to bring the value of a law degree in line with its social cost. Of course to the sufficiently cynical and shameless within legal academia this is a feature not a bug.

(2) The effect of (1) on graduate debt. If PAYE remains in place average educational debt for law graduates will within five years top $200,000, while at private schools it will be more along the lines of $250,000.

(3) The psychological effect of (2) on the very large percentage of law graduates who will find themselves carrying fantastic debt loads while being unable to earn a reasonable middle class living as lawyers, or who indeed will never be lawyers at all. Keep in mind that PAYE doesn’t create a single new legal job, or add a dollar to anyone’s salary. The graduate toiling away in a $50,000 per year cut and paste office will be paying an 7% or so surcharge on top of an effective tax rate of around 25%. As DJM points out this is both a significant individual and social cost. Does the “prestige” of calling yourself a lawyer compensate adequately for a take home pay of $2,800 a month, while watching your $200,000 debt balloon ever-higher, and hoping that the political process doesn’t ever decide that you actually have to start paying it back?”

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/12/will-ibrpaye-be-good-for-future-law.html

JP

I don’t know how these poor law students even function these days.

I had $120,000 in debt back in 2000, and that was with Duke giving me basically a year of tuition.

I’m doing fine, financially speaking, but it still took me four years of living as a student after law school to pay it back. I benefited from graduating into the dot-com boom.

These days, there are less legal jobs, less job security, and more debt. Half the law students will be fine. The other half will do horribly.

Lokland

@Susan

“Lokland trumping the New York Times? I don’t think so.”

Well not to be a prick but…

Jokes.

Susan, if you want I’ll draw up a somewhat comprehensive review of papers over the next month or so to prove I’m right and submit it to you…and I expect an A.

I’m always right.

HanSolo

@Susan

Thanks for the extra info. Then I think he was foolish to break up with her as I originally stated.

JP

” Furthermore, schizophrenia, epilepsy and autism are hardly minor changes.”

Three of my more popular types of cases.

Just talked to an autism case several hours ago.

Schizophrenia is later this week, I think.

Mike C

You seem to have a great deal of difficulty dealing in anything but literal statements of fact. Nuance and subtlety is completely lost on you. I feel like I’m trying to talk to Siri or something.

No, I understand subtlety just find…actually very well…which is why I immediately recognize your subtle rhetorical sleight of hand you tend to engage in. You are very good at the non-answer answer where you appear to respond to the point or question but really it is just a distraction. If you answer like a politician I am going to point it out.

As for Lokland’s background, who’s trotting out the credentials now?

Well…it is interesting…no fascinating that he basically pointed out that I am stating the obvious while you felt the need to challenge my general point in some way.

Normally you make narrow points and get discombobulated by the general. Here you’ve addressed the general and been thrown by the specific.

If you’re going to leave pissy comments on the blog, e.g. *feminine imperative*, expect pushback Susan Style. If you don’t like it, well..

Nothing pissy about feminine imperative. It is simply a description of a particular view. Here is perhaps the best definition of feminine imperative I’ve seen:

I would describe the Feminine Imperative as the tendency for women to define social rules and morality to meet strictly female needs.

So for example, the entire concept of age appropriate dating….i.e. that a 35 year old man should be more inclined to date a 35 year old woman instead of a 25 year old woman is an example of the feminine imperative. I could give many more examples. The idea that a man should display provisioning capacity during courtship is another. Mind you, I’m not saying anything about what is right or wrong, simply describing things that serve female interests.

To your last sentence in that paragraph….well..that goes both ways. It would be nice if any discussion, would be less confrontational, but the ball is in your court to stop trying to play verbal chess with me.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

So for example, the entire concept of age appropriate dating….i.e. that a 35 year old man should be more inclined to date a 35 year old woman instead of a 25 year old woman is an example of the feminine imperative.

I consider that a ludicrous statement, as evidenced by my post Why You Should Date Older Men. Therefore, I fail to understand why you lecture about the feminine imperative here. Come to think of it, I have never seen that statement anywhere, not even on feminist blogs. Can you provide some evidence of this prevalent imperative?

The idea that a man should display provisioning capacity during courtship is another. Mind you, I’m not saying anything about what is right or wrong, simply describing things that serve female interests.

Another silly statement. Men are under no obligation whatsoever to display provisioning capacity. And women are under no obligation to display fertility/beauty. It just so happens that people who choose to do so are more successful in mating.

I can’t recall your ever stating that women working out, or having their hair and makeup done (ahem) is evidence of the male imperative…

It would be nice if any discussion, would be less confrontational, but the ball is in your court to stop trying to play verbal chess with me.

You threw the first punch by showing up to “high 5″ Mr. Wavevector on his challenges to the feminine imperative. Dude! This is the problem! You know exactly where you can go to dish all you want about us selfish and entitled girls. Mr. WV and I were having a perfectly civil exchange – why do you feel the need to cheer him from the sidelines? It’s exactly this kind of fist pumping that I have always objected to, and I have asked you not to do it many times! Your MO is gender wars, Team Man vs. Team Woman. I don’t do that here, and I don’t want it. I honestly have no idea how I can make this clearer to you. The last few discussions here have been a huge improvement, specifically because the adversarial mentality has been missing. More women are commenting and listening, real understanding and respect is occurring between the sexes. Please don’t start pissing matches.

Lokland

@Susan

“This article suggests that the variable of male age has much greater effect than female age in producing harmful genetic mutations. I have no personal knowledge of the subject.”

No it doesn’t.

“rare chromosomal problems such as Down syndrome in babies,” OR more often Dead as the baby miscarries and never sees the light of day (or one of the other two birth able trisomies which are probably some of the worst things to parents to endure)

“autism”

Downs and Dead > Autism/schizophrenia

Least in my simpleton mind.

—————

those de novo point mutations involve the change in 1 base pair out of 3.2 billion.

Large chromosomal abnormalities effect 100’s of thousands to millions of base pairs.

Not even in the same ballpark in terms of effect.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

those de novo point mutations involve the change in 1 base pair out of 3.2 billion.

How does this relate to the 2% risk to older fathers cited in the article? If the odds are 1 in 3.2 billion, why have autism rates risen so sharply as a result of increasing paternal age?

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

Regarding “scripts”…of course, parents have long influenced or attempted to influence the career choices of their children. Indeed, in Ye Olden Days, if dad was a peasant or a blacksmith or a merchant, that was likely what his sons were going to be, too. And even when society changed to open more career choices to the kids (whatever their parents had done career-wise) there were often still a lot of pressures. (“My son, the doctor”)…but I think these pressures gradually receded and parents were generally more open to letting the kids make their own decision. But now I’m afraid this openness has too often been replaced by micromanaging the kid onto the “right” conveyor belt.

And a lot of the parents that are doing this probably don’t really have the knowledge/understanding to really grasp what they’re doing when the push the kid into becoming an X. One can’t assume that because pharmacy, for example, has been a good career over the last 20 years that it will be a good career over the next 20. Did these parents consider the impact of supply/demand balance among pharmacists, the effects of automation and of cost-control programs, etc etc? Driving with eyes firmly focused on the rear-view mirror is rarely a good idea.

Lokland

@Susan

“How could an unborn child be a greater problem than a child with birth defects? Furthermore, schizophrenia, epilepsy and autism are hardly minor changes.”

You look at this through the lens of the parents.
I see it through the lens of the kid. Not being born is infinitely worse in my mind than having autism.

Having Downs is also worse than any of those three.

Beyond that the link to mental disorders from genetics though definitely existent is shaky at best. To try and draw it down to a few genes and then say its Dads fault is ridiculous.

As you quoted, disorders of the brain are polygenic (okay you didn’t actually quote it but it can be inferred) which means that the problems can arise through multiple different subsets (leading to disease gradient).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Take it up with the NYXs via a Letter to the Editor. Seriously, I am in no way inclined or informed enough to debate birth defects. The research made big news and was carried in reputable newspapers.

I really don’t see what difference it makes – this is a silly argument. I have no investment in the outcome of who is responsible for birth defects. It appears that aging reproductive systems may produce less perfect embryos. Sounds like common sense to me.

Why is this a finger pointing exercise?

Lokland

@Susan

“Furthermore, schizophrenia, epilepsy and autism are hardly minor changes.”

Yes. Its also a minor problem to get hit by a car or be in an airplane crash.
You seem to be making some kind of strange link between old dude = kid with mental disorder which is not correct.

Must also consider the frequency with which these diseases occur.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

You seem to be making some kind of strange link between old dude = kid with mental disorder which is not correct.

Must also consider the frequency with which these diseases occur.

If you would, read the NYXs and WSJ articles and let me know if I have misunderstood them. They seem pretty clear. Perhaps your quarrel is with the researchers or the journalists who wrote them up.

Jackie

@Susan (374 & Replies)
Argh, that story is *tragic*. I mean, this is going to be one of those things he looks back on at the end of his life. And feel like he turned down what could have been the greatest thing that ever happened to him.

Especially as it sounds like she gave it 110%. At least she can have no regrets on that score. She needs to accept his No and move forward with her life. Even if she tried to go back, the trust is broken.

The thing is– and this will sound pretty mean– if he dumped her over his lack of a job, maybe he did the right thing. I mean– there are other options besides a high-paying job in that exact field.

What about starting his own business– heck, I’d clean houses, if I needed to. Walk dogs. Someone offered me $400 to train their cat how to use a bathroom (instead of litterbox) just last week. Strange, but true! He is conflating self-worth with his current employment, or lack thereof.

I knew an awesome guy (used to be a buyer at Neiman Marcus, got cancer), who used his retail knowledge to scour estate sales and re-sell on eBay and paid off his chemo that way. I was reading a memoir about a boy who was turned loose from his family at 6 years old and learned to make his own way in the world– in the Depression.

I remember being SO low on money during school that I sold plasma. Yes, it was an unhappy time, but I kept asking myself, What can I do so I will never have to return to this ever again? I kept asking and asking until I had all kinds of answers. I didn’t like a lot of them, but I’d rather have tough answers than give up on life and happiness.

The point is, there are SO MANY more difficult things than this job situation. I’m not saying it doesn’t stink — *it does*. But if this guy is going to give up on a girl who was ready to believe in him, support him and give him 110% at his lowest…

A corporation can replace you in the blink of an eye. Even less than that. Whereas it can take a lifetime to find someone to believe in you, which is irreplaceable.

Some people never even get half a chance at what he has and he’s throwing it away with both hands. It’s a damn shame.

JP

@Susan:

“That’s because it is. What INTJ wants/expects has not been the norm since the 1920s.”

It doesn’t seem that unreasonable to me because I got what he wants a mere 12 years ago. So, it just feels wrong to really discourage him on his quest. Although I really don’t think I cared about his issue that much.

And amazingly enough, there was no religious community involvement.

Granted, I was a law student, so I got bonus points.

I also think that I wasn’t particularly concerned about the entire serial monogamy issue because it wasn’t on my list of things to worry about.

INTJ

@ Susan

OK, that’s your right, but that’s a very tall order. Is arranged marriage an option?

I better get on my mother’s case.

Jackie

@Lokland

“You look at this through the lens of the parents.
I see it through the lens of the kid. Not being born is infinitely worse in my mind than having autism.”
===
Yet you said you would terminate your own child if it had any defects. Am I missing something? Thanks, Lokland.

Jackie

@INTJ

INTJ, you are Indian, correct? I know at least two couples from India that had arranged marriages and really were devoted to their families. Would you be okay with something like this?

HanSolo

@INTJ

You should find a way to sincerely become a Mormon. Lots of Mormon girls wanting to get married at 20-22 y/o, though they’re gradually following the broader culture, only 20-30 years behind in terms of delaying marriage.

Lokland

@Jackie

“Yet you said you would terminate your own child if it had any defects. Am I missing something? Thanks, Lokland.”

She’s looking at the effect on people.
I’m looking at the biological effect.

She is extrapolating the effect on people and returning it to the biological effect. Though the effect on those living with the person might be large, the biological changes in play are minuscule in comparison to those occurring within a mother of the same age.

This is not correct.

I also disagree with her assumption that a baby never born is better off for the parents.

Ask a mother who has had a couple miscarriages how she feels.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

I also disagree with her assumption that a baby never born is better off for the parents.

Ask a mother who has had a couple miscarriages how she feels.

I have known several, and do you know what their obstetricians told them? That miscarriage is nature’s way of terminating a pregnancy when the fetus will not be viable. I don’t have any knowledge re whether this is accurate, but that is the prevailing medical wisdom.

I also know two women whose children were born extremely prematurely, extraordinary measures were taken, they spent months in the hospital and are now 3 and 6, respectively. It is not for me to judge any part of the process or care, but neither child can speak or hold its head up. Both are fed via trachea tubes. Cognitive function is seriously impaired. Both have had several surgeries, with many more to come. Of course their parents love them very much. I don’t know if that kind of intervention is a good thing.

HanSolo

@Jackie 596

+1

It reminds me of the Little House on the Prairie episode where Jonathan Garvey has a huge harvest but then his barn burns down and so then he goes and sells his team and stuff so that he can buy a bunch of presents for his wife and son.

She says she’ll work at the post office but he gets pissed because it’s an affront on his ability to provide. Enraged, he moves out of the house and goes to another city and they nearly divorce.

And just to add some fuel to the fire, he finds out that she was married for a brief time and never told him…bad move there on her part.

JP

I think that the last thing that INTJ should do is become Mormon.

What he needs to do is find a 20-22 year old female ex-mormon who has left the church very recently due to questions of faith.

That way he gets the benefits of Mormonism without the 10% annual tithe.

Lokland

@Susan

“How does this relate to the 2% risk to older fathers cited in the article? If the odds are 1 in 3.2 billion, why have autism rates risen so sharply as a result of increasing paternal age?”

Mental disorders are polygenic.
If theres 50 genes involved loss of function/change of function etc. in any one of those can lead to diseases state.
Most of the bodies biochemical network is interconnected.

Another example is Cancer, which is probably 200-400 separate types of genetic disorder displaying similar characteristics which we label cancer. mental disorders will likely become labelled in much the same.

Also, the mutations themselves are probably not entirely random. Certain areas/epigenetic tags/base frequencies in regions are more prone to mutations.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Oh shoot Lokland, I am not smart enough to follow you. I will take your word for it. As my babymaking days are over, and the odds of birth defects are very low for everyone, with your permission I’m not going to lose sleep over this.

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

#374….very sad story. Seems to me he is making too many assumptions and declaring failure prematurely. There are lots of different paths to success, as Jackie said above; I get the feeling that he is engaging in conveyor-belt thinking about his career. And also, it sounds like she has been very supportive of him, rather than losing attraction on account of failure-derived betaness…Does he really think he’ll be LESS demoralized not having her around?

I slychologize that he’s subonsciously–maybe even consciously–expecting that she will ditch him on account of his job situation at some point in the future, even if she’s given absolutely no sign of such behavior, and he’s trying to make it less painful by preempting it.

http://x OffTheCuff

JP: “INFJ wants a Pre-Nuptial Girlfriend, a “PNG”.”

I hear JPGs and MPEGs make pretty good ones, too.

Lokland

@Susan

And thats off the top of my head.
Give me an hour and I’ll come up with another half dozen.

Example, certain mental diseases are caused by the proteins aggregating and gunking up the nerves which is due to a slippage resulting in repeat extensions (Huntingtons) its possible for point mutations to cause something similar (aggregation) via unfolding the protein or something.

Essentially, theres a lot of shit that can go wrong in making a baby. Even stranger is when one thing goes wrong it all tends to go wrong.

To lay the blame at the feet solely of the father is ridiculous.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

To lay the blame at the feet solely of the father is ridiculous.

I don’t think anyone was doing that, even at the New York Times.

As obvious as all of this seems to you, apparently it was considered something of a real discovery to learn that male genes mutate with age. I do recall reading in the past about the relative fragility of the Y chromosome. No doubt that is totally irrelevant, though.

INTJ

@ Jackie

INTJ, you are Indian, correct? I know at least two couples from India that had arranged marriages and really were devoted to their families. Would you be okay with something like this?

I’d be perfectly happy with it. However, unlike most desis, my parents are rather out of the loop with the Indian community back home.

Though recently, one of the great aunts was trying to set my older brother up with some some of her acquaintances’ daughters/granddaughters.

Lokland

@Susan

“Why is this a finger pointing exercise?”

Its not.
I enjoy the topic.

Lisa C

@Susan

I’m still thinking about your friend. In response to me, you said:

“When they had a conversation about their relationship, he told her that he would keep doing his best to hold her at arm’s length as long as he was unemployed. She could see no way to proceed under such an artificial structure, and had no interest in dialing the relationship back to casual.”

If I loved him (or at least thought there was a very likely chance that I would love him and he would love me back), I think I would seriously consider agreeing to dial the relationship back to where he is comfortable — at least for the near future. It doesn’t sound like he wants her out of his life, and she sure doesn’t sound ready to go. Yes, there are risks (time is always ticking of course), but if I loved him, I would probably take the gamble.

I originally was under the impression that he wanted a complete break from her while he sorted out his issues.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lisa C

If I loved him (or at least thought there was a very likely chance that I would love him and he would love me back), I think I would seriously consider agreeing to dial the relationship back to where he is comfortable — at least for the near future. It doesn’t sound like he wants her out of his life, and she sure doesn’t sound ready to go. Yes, there are risks (time is always ticking of course), but if I loved him, I would probably take the gamble.

She did try this. The break actually occurred over a few weeks and several long talks. Both were reluctant to end it. Ultimately this is what he said, “We have strong feelings for one another. If we keep seeing each other, yours will increase, as they should. I will not let myself become any more emotionally invested. That is not fair to you, I won’t do it.” She couldn’t believe he was essentially turning down no-strings sex at that point, but he did.

INTJ

@ HanSolo

You should find a way to sincerely become a Mormon. Lots of Mormon girls wanting to get married at 20-22 y/o, though they’re gradually following the broader culture, only 20-30 years behind in terms of delaying marriage.

The sincere part is easier said than done.

JP

I learned a new word today!

Desis.

Thanks INTJ!

How in the world did that word originate?

Lokland

@Susan

“If you would, read the NYXs and WSJ articles and let me know if I have misunderstood them. They seem pretty clear. Perhaps your quarrel is with the researchers or the journalists who wrote them up.”

What leads you to conclude I haven’t already?
(Note: Didn’t read any papers. As always media sensationalized. Need to sell those papers.)

Jackie

@HanSolo

Ha ha! You can count on Capt. Solo finding a way to relate LHOTP to the discussion in an intelligent and informative way! Speaking of, that sounds like it could make an *excellent* book proposal:

Everything I Needed To Know I Learned from Half-Pint

or
Little Advice Column On The Prairie (HS, this should be your blog! You solve people’s problems, one LH episode at a time. Seriously!)

HanSolo

@JP and INTJ

Yeah, the ex-mormon who still holds family values would be a better bet.

Lokland

@Susan

I realize you don’t want to discuss this.

I’m not saying birth defects don’t increase with age in males.
I am saying it does not occur with as large an increase as it does in females.

In the end, theres no point going any farther because regardless of what people read here 35yo women, 40 yo men are still gonna shack up and have kids. Most of those will pop out okay.

Most people will have kids before then anyway so, who cares.

What is annoying is your tone, wording which almost makes it seem to come as a “ha, ha. girls are better than boys” mentality.

I have literally no interest in you and Mikes pissing contest. Ban him, make up and kiss it all better, force him to dress like a chicken and run ’round the forums. I don’t care who wins your argument or how its concluded.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

What is annoying is your tone, wording which almost makes it seem to come as a “ha, ha. girls are better than boys” mentality.

That is antithetical to everything I am trying to do here. Very discouraging.

It started as a minor “con” in the risk/benefit analysis of dating an older guy, which I endorsed. I apologize for allowing this to get blown out of proportion.

There was no feminine imperative intended.

Lokland

@Susan

“That miscarriage is nature’s way of terminating a pregnancy when the fetus will not be viable. I don’t have any knowledge re whether this is accurate, but that is the prevailing medical wisdom.”

100%

For the previously mentioned reasons.
Consider that a new tid bit for your ever expanding body of scientific knowledge.

Mike C

I consider that a ludicrous statement, as evidenced by my post Why You Should Date Older Men.

I wasn’t accusing you of saying it is inappropriate. Why you took that personally I have no idea. I was using that as a single example. I could find many women who would find a 10-year difference of 35 to 25 problematic especially if they are in their 30s and single.

Another silly statement. Men are under no obligation whatsoever to display provisioning capacity.

Of course they are not *obligated*. But it is still part of the prevailing social expectations.

You threw the first punch by showing up to “high 5″ Mr. Wavevector on his challenges to the feminine imperative.

This is ridiculous. This isn’t throwing a punch. If I threw a punch, you’d know it, because it would be painful. I was simply acknowledging someone who I thought has had some brilliantly incisive and spot on comments.

Mr. WV and I were having a perfectly civil exchange – why do you feel the need to cheer him from the sidelines?

If your exchange is civil, it is absurd to suggest there is something uncivil about me appreciating and acknowledging his arguments. For f*cks sake, people + 1 other comments ALL THE TIME. I simply was being more verbal about it. I feel the need because I like to appreciate when someone has impressed me in whatever capacity whether it is a guy making a verbal argument or a guy bench pressing 315 for the first time. Maybe that is a guy thing.

The last few discussions here have been a huge improvement, specifically because the adversarial mentality has been missing.

I have intentionally steered clear from trying to address any of your comments. If you want to challenge me though, I will come back. That is up to you.

More women are commenting and listening, real understanding and respect is occurring between the sexes. Please don’t start pissing matches.

I’m not starting any pissing matches with anyone else. The only one going on is between you and I in this thread. That one can easily end if you stop trying to one up me.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

That one can easily end if you stop trying to one up me.

I’m giving up responding to you for Advent.

Lokland

@Susan

“I also know two women whose children were born extremely prematurely, extraordinary measures were taken, they spent months in the hospital and are now 3 and 6, respectively.”

I would have taken a more Spartan approach.

You look at this from the effect on others.
I look at this on the level of biological effect.

We are never going to agree.

Jackie

@david foster

“There are lots of different paths to success, as Jackie said above; I get the feeling that he is engaging in conveyor-belt thinking about his career.”
===
Agreed!

I also wonder if his metric for success has been formatted to fit some incredibly high (and artificial) standard. To me, that puts so much unnecessary pressure on a person.

I was talking to my dad about what it was like when I was about to be born. My dad said, We just wanted you to be healthy and have fingers and toes. That was it! I can’t imagine that I am somehow uncommon. There was a point in time where our parents were just thrilled that we were here!

It’s a shame that we make such unfair rules about what needs to happen in order for us to feel happy or successful. So arbitrary and unjust.

Jackie

“I have literally no interest in you and Mikes pissing contest. Ban him, make up and kiss it all better, force him to dress like a chicken and run ’round the forums. ”
====
Yesssss!
CHICKEN! CHICKEN! CHICKEN!

Mike C

Seriously, I am in no way inclined or informed enough to debate birth defects. The research made big news and was carried in reputable newspapers.

****I really don’t see what difference it makes – this is a silly argument.***** I have no investment in the outcome of who is responsible for birth defects. It appears that aging reproductive systems may produce less perfect embryos.

Then it was pointless in the first place to respond to my comment initially with that giant excerpt.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Then it was pointless in the first place to respond to my comment

Agreed. My bad.

Jackie

@INTJ

“Though recently, one of the great aunts was trying to set my older brother up with some some of her acquaintances’ daughters/granddaughters.”
===
Dude, you’ve got a golden opportunity here. Plus, if she is the “matchmaker type” she will not rest until you are set up with the right girl.

(Plus, we can all cheer you on when you’re going on dates instead of posting about not meeting girls.)

Why don’t you call your great aunt and see what happens? There’s not even a downside here, INTJ. Carpe diem

Jackie

@HanSolo

Little Blog On The Prairie has been taken, darn it! But Little Blogspot On The Prairie is still available!

Lokland

@Susan

” I do recall reading in the past about the relative fragility of the Y chromosome. No doubt that is totally irrelevant, though.”

Its really cool but being a guy is do to one gene that is located on the Y chromosome. If you lack that your a girl (or maybe I got that backwards).

If you recombine that gene across to the X chromosome you can have an XX individual with a penis!

And yes Y chrome. is fragile but that would be more of an issue in GENERAL than just spermatogenesis.

“As obvious as all of this seems to you, apparently it was considered something of a real discovery to learn that male genes mutate with age. ”

Thats because I suspected it for a long time beforehand. (SOO intuitively obvious.) We don’t disagree on whether it occurs, frequency is the issue.

“with your permission I’m not going to lose sleep over this.”

Lol. Its all good.
I just like talking about genes.

Lokland

@Jackie

“Yesssss!
CHICKEN! CHICKEN! CHICKEN!”

Tar and feathers comin’ up.

Lokland

@Sue

“I don’t think anyone was doing that, even at the New York Times. ”

Why in the world would I read an American newspaper?

Lisa C

I can believe that he turned down the no-strings sex, but it’s cutting off his support network (or possibly a major component of his support network) that seems crazy. In any event, it doesn’t sound like there is anything she can do (sadly).

Jackie

@Susan

“She couldn’t believe he was essentially turning down no-strings sex at that point, but he did.”
====
Susan, wasn’t she setting herself up lose-lose on this?

Not only the loss of her self-respect –letting this guy use her for sex, just to hang on to him seems guaranteed to do that. But if he took her up on it, what good could possibly result from it?

If he accepts, she is bending over backwards to a guy who is okay with using her NSA– yuck. If he rejects her, she is not only rejected but knows that even at her “SMP lowest price” he doesn’t want her, even if he is retaining his principles.

To me it looks like she is trying to bring herself lower, to make the guy feel better. That kind of relationship never works out in the long run.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jackie

Not only the loss of her self-respect –letting this guy use her for sex, just to hang on to him seems guaranteed to do that. But if he took her up on it, what good could possibly result from it?

To be fair, she wasn’t really suggesting they be f*ckbuddies, she was just saying, “Can’t we keep seeing each other and see how things go?” That was backpedaling from her initial demand that without the potential for real commitment, she was not interested in continuing to see him. They were very close, and she was shocked when he balked at the talk of commitment. Once the conversation had been had, there was no going back. She realizes that now, and she is also glad that her offer was rejected. She knows she would have been miserable if he had succeeded at “keeping her at arm’s length.” I think she’s glad she didn’t have to watch or experience that. She’s just finding it very hard to be separated from someone she cares so much about.

JP

Where are you Lokland?

Meaning what newspapers do you read?

Jackie

“I’m giving up responding to you for Advent.”
===
Aw, you should both get chocolate Advent calendars featuring the dove of peace, instead.

Damien Vulaume

@Lisa c: “It doesn’t sound like he wants her out of his life.”
No, but he’s decided to be out of hers.
Susan posted some more detailed informations about that woman which showed that she really couldn’t have gone more out of her way to accomodate the situation than she did. The fact that he chooses to pursue his job hunting by himself rather than doing it with her shows a real difference of “love level” for each. In other words, she loves him MUCH more than he does.
What he is also saying is essentially this: My darling, you’re the one but I must do my job hunting alone. When I’m done with it (if ever), and my pride is restored, I’ll give you a ring. How charming…
To me he’s an ungratful fool blinded by his personal problems.

Ted D

Wine makes everything better. Well at least sex and sleep. And other than eating (which wine can certainly assist on) what else is there of importance?

Good grief peeps, why so serious? (And how does that sound coming from me?)

A Definite Beta Guy

@ David Foster

And a lot of the parents that are doing this probably don’t really have the knowledge/understanding to really grasp what they’re doing when the push the kid into becoming an X. One can’t assume that because pharmacy, for example, has been a good career over the last 20 years that it will be a good career over the next 20. Did these parents consider the impact of supply/demand balance among pharmacists, the effects of automation and of cost-control programs, etc etc? Driving with eyes firmly focused on the rear-view mirror is rarely a good idea.

That’s an awful lot of work and understanding for parents. They are nice parents, and just doing the best they can by their kids. And their lives aren’t totally messed up or anything…for the most part, the kids turn out okay. For now.

I am concerned about the future generations, though.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

I can believe that he turned down the no-strings sex, but it’s cutting off his support network (or possibly a major component of his support network) that seems crazy. In any event, it doesn’t sound like there is anything she can do (sadly).

I think he is seriously depressed to a point that he has no idea what he is giving up, he just wants to punish himself. He will regret this choice as soon as he gets out of this dark moment on his life…too late for him sadly.

Jackie

@Susan

I’m sorry– my assessment was really blunt. I think these situations are so much easier to be cut-and-dried about when you don’t know any of the people. You do, obviously, and you care about them very much. I shouldn’t have been so blunt.

I still think that this is going to be the biggest mistake of this guy’s life, though. The kind he will look back on at the end. If only we could get a Ghost of Christmas Future to show him that girls like this don’t grow on trees!

I’m sure he can find another girl, but not one who will be so devoted at his lowest ebb of his existence. Remember what the Dowager Countess said to Lady Mary– If you support a man when he has nothing, he will love you all of his days.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jackie

I’m sorry– my assessment was really blunt. I think these situations are so much easier to be cut-and-dried about when you don’t know any of the people.

No worries, I do it all the time! Like many others here, I feel empathy for them both, but I also feel disgusted by what I see as a waste. Your point was valid.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Lokland,
Since we’re discussing genes, I have a rather OT question. I have a de novo SALL1 mutation, which causes Townes-Brocks Syndrome, and I had a relatively old father (40, when I was born). I’m probably a bad example, as TBS is apparently extremely rare (the wikipedia article about it claims only 250 people worldwide have it, but I don’t think that’s true, I think people just go undiagnosed). But is it possible that this is one of those examples of an old father having a kid with a genetic disease?

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@INTJ

Well this proves part of what I said… I betcha many of these boyfriends score high on the asshole spectrum.

Susan’s asked for it. I’ve asked for it, but won’t again, as you appear to suffer from data deafness. I betcha that you can’t provide any reliable information to back that up.

It’s weird, though: taking data you don’t actually believe in, then saying it supports what you do believe when it doesn’t… kinda delusional.

I don’t want a GF…

Hey, that’s your preference, which is fine. It also means you’re at a decided disadvantage WRT finding a marriage partner in America (where most people date, then mate, then marry, in that order). And you can’t blame women for that…

INTJ

@ JP

I learned a new word today!

Desis.

Thanks INTJ!

How in the world did that word originate?

Hehe. I think it is derived from “des” which means country/homeland. So a desi is someone who originates from the des.

INTJ

@ Jackie

Dude, you’ve got a golden opportunity here. Plus, if she is the “matchmaker type” she will not rest until you are set up with the right girl.

(Plus, we can all cheer you on when you’re going on dates instead of posting about not meeting girls.)

Why don’t you call your great aunt and see what happens? There’s not even a downside here, INTJ. Carpe diem

Yeah I’ll try. Though she seems to be putting all her attention on my older brother right now – which makes sense given that he’s 8 years older…

INTJ

Hey, that’s your preference, which is fine. It also means you’re at a decided disadvantage WRT finding a marriage partner in America (where most people date, then mate, then marry, in that order). And you can’t blame women for that…

Hah, that would be great. Well that or date, then date, then date, … then mate, then marry. Unfortunately, it tends to be more like date, then date, then mate, then date, then mate, then date, then date, … then finally marry.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Megaman,
I find it amazing that, after all the fairly sniveling remarks you’ve addressed to INTJ, he continues to answer your posts in a considerably level-headed way, in a generous tone (654 is a case in point). He may not provide the data you want (then again, the vast majority of people who comment here do not speak in numbers, just a thought), but don’t you think it’d be appropriate to lower your weapon, in the spirit of Christmas? Looks like Susan and Mike C have called off the war for the time being.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@INTJ

Unfortunately, it tends to be more like date, then date, then mate, then date, then mate, then date, then date… then finally marry.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that sequence of events. You’ve got a pretty superficial view of what serial monogamy really entails. Most people don’t enter a relationship with the intent to jump out of it. They try their best to make a go of it, but it usually takes several tries before they’re successful (on average). Though not for 19% of married men and 32% of married women.

I get the sense that you’ve got a LONG list of types of women already DQ’d before even meeting them. Good luck trying to find that attractive, celibate girl who’s just been sitting at home waiting for you to come along, because that’s what you’ve drained the pool to…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Most people don’t enter a relationship with the intent to jump out of it. They try their best to make a go of it, but it usually takes several tries before they’re successful (on average).

Not just that, most people will benefit enormously from dating a number of people before they find their life partner. From an economics standpoint, this is rational, as it is very unlikely that your first boyfriend or girlfriend is the best you can do. Dating is shopping, you rarely want to buy the first thing you see. If you do, you’ll likely never know if you paid too much or what was available at other locations.

szopen

@Damien Vulaume

“I would break up with her, no matter how much I loved her.”
Please explain.

There is nothing to explain. It was when I studied and had no job while she had a job already. We lived together, we paid the rent together – I got money from uhm… what would be the english for stipendium? I started to feel worthless, nevertheless. It was like she was adult (my wife is older than me, btw), and I was still a kid. That I really do not look for my age and she sometimes teased me by calling me her “cute little boy” made only things worse.

It’s not point to argue whether it was logical or not, since there is nothing logical about feelings. Yes, maybe it was my upbringing which made me feel that way. Maybe it was because of a culture. Even knowing that for sure wouldn’t change a thing – you cannot undone your upbringing and culture, or at least it is very hard.

Second similar time, as i wrote earlier, was much later, when i finished the university. I earned less than her, but I have not really noticed it for a year or so. First six months or so she was on maternity leave. But then when we worked on tax forms I’ve suddenly noticed that her salary was larger. It was not pleasant, and since we already were married and had child, i simply had no other option than to go work more, harder and earn more.

Once i’ve read a comment – I don’t know whether it was in Polish or English blogosphere – that our culture expects adult women to take care of themselves, but it expects adult men to take care of themselves and of the others.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@szopen

Once i’ve read a comment – I don’t know whether it was in Polish or English blogosphere – that our culture expects adult women to take care of themselves, but it expects adult men to take care of themselves and of the others.

I think this is true, but I also think that many men are hard-wired to do this. They enjoy it. You can see this in the area of dating – there is no real reason why men alone should pay for dates. Some don’t. But some have a strong preference to pay. They identify strongly with the provider role. This makes sense, as displaying that trait would have been very advantageous for mating throughout our history.

Today, I sympathize that men are sort of stuck with the desire to provide at the same time women need provisioning less. In my view, this is a large part of the male identity crisis in America, aka “the end of men.”

szopen

@tasmin

“Until we re-enter this state, we are essentially on emotional welfare, lowering our head as we cash those checks.

That’s sooo true.

It’s like if you are not considering yourself worthy, you take the love of the other with a grain of suspicion. Am I really worthy your love, or you are just taking pity of me?

szopen

@INTJ

Oh I substituted Susan for szopen. Freudian slip I guess.

I don’t know what have you in mind when you made that freudian slip, but remember I am married and straight.

Just1Z

@Ana #531
not a comic…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin_beer
mmmmmm dark and tasty beer. not exactly bud-lite

Just1Z

@BB
“A lot of guys in my industry see Japan going down hard and first. Few are ready for default in a G7, but I personally have trouble feeling much more than schadenfreude at this point.”

I notice that Iceland has disappeared off the media lately. Maybe the message that you can tell bankers to go **** themselves, sack the politicians, and life continues…maybe that message isn’t welcomed by the banking elite.

Given the choice of a lifetime of paying off debt that I neither created nor voted for, or rolling the dice with a massive default of nations around the world…roll the die baby / go ahead punk, make my millenium.

I just hope that the Chinese don’t start WW III when you guys default, or just attempt to inflate the debt away via QE.

to be clear.
UK & EU have nothing to shout about, I’m not bashing the US.
when those economies crash, the BRICs have no one to export to…oops

to be poolside is to be sane because stressing over stuff that you have no control over is very dangerous for your health.

Just1Z

Watched a great mini-series off TV last night; ‘Secret State’

It starts with the aftermath of a Bhopal (Union Carbide) type disaster in the UK but through the 3 hours of of the political thriller is touches on bankers / big business / politicians / military behaviour in the modern world.

I think that it gets a little weaker towards the end, and it ended too early for my tastes, but a cool series. Based on the concept of a political leader with integrity…weird concept

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1960029/

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Just1Z, the Chinese don’t really start wars on foreign countries. They haven’t gone to active war since the Japanese invaded in WWII. Before that, there were rebellions and internal strife with the nationalists who went to Taiwan. Long before that, the Mongols kept invading. They killed their own people during the Cultural Revolution.

So I doubt the Chinese would really try to invade a war-happy country which has a lot more modern military experience over the issue of debt. But this fear is trotted out a lot. IMO, if WWIII starts, it’s going to start in the Middle East or Europe. China, at the top, is not run by risk-taking warmongers, but risk-averse bureaucrats who want personal wealth and glory, and get plenty. The outgoing leader became a secret billionaire.

Just1Z

@Susan
“Experts said that the finding was hardly reason to forgo fatherhood later in life, though it may have some influence on reproductive decisions”

yeah, so it’s more about feminists having a reply to men talking about female fertility declining with age.

the fact that the two are not comparable except to the-hard-of-thinking doesn’t really matter, because their audience is the-hard-of-thinking. it’s about emotion not reason.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1Z

yeah, so it’s more about feminists having a reply to men talking about female fertility declining with age.

I don’t see the link to feminists. These were male Icelandic researchers, and I see no evidence that their motives are political. Here’s a thought – maybe scientists actually want to figure out how genes work.

JP

@Anaconda: “I think he is seriously depressed to a point that he has no idea what he is giving up, he just wants to punish himself.”

This is a possibility.

He could be committing social suicide, so to speak.

Meaning that he’s saying “stay away from me, I’m going to destroy everything I touch”.

Iggles

yeah, so it’s more about feminists having a reply to men talking about female fertility declining with age.

the fact that the two are not comparable except to the-hard-of-thinking doesn’t really matter, because their audience is the-hard-of-thinking. it’s about emotion not reason.

I really don’t see the problem with Susan citing that study!

It’s common knowledge that the age of the mother impacts fertility. The other she is, the harder it is for her to conceive and the higher number of damaged eggs she has – which can lead to miscarriage. However, for ages it was though men stay perfectly fertile no matter what their age because they continually make new sperm. This study shows it’s not as simple as that. While older men can still make babies, the quality of their sperm decreases over time. Much like the aging process, the root cause is mistakes happen as cells divide.

She wasn’t saying older males have the same fertility issues as older women, or the same rate of problems. The point of the study is to dispel the myth that there are NO downsides for having other fathers.

Again, I don’t get the problem here! No need to take the study personal or argue that older women have it worse — we know the latter already! *sigh*

Iggles

Ugh, typos!

Other mothers = older mothers

Other fathers = older fathers!

http://photoncourier.blogspot.com david foster

ADBG..re parents understanding the pharmacist biz in depth…”That’s an awful lot of work and understanding for parents. ”

Which is really my point…there’s a lot of work and understanding for learning about the prospects of any industry/career field…therefore they need to take it easy about pressuring the kid to go into some field the kid doesn’t feel right about going into.

OffTheCuff

Sue: “From an economics standpoint, this is rational, as it is very unlikely that your first boyfriend or girlfriend is the best you can do. ”

Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.

True, the key is knowing when to stop the search. I am speaking strictly in economics, or game theory terms here. I wrote about it here:

Loveonomics

I’d say if you’re in love and feel very fortunate to have those feelings requited, by all means lock it down. In my case, I had strong feelings for a couple of people back in the day who I am very, very glad I did not marry.

JP

“Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.”

This is my point.

And Susan’s response is that you “stop shopping”.

You could do this on #1 and you would be in the same position as you were before because you can always improve, from an economics perspective.

I think she’s trying to say that you find someone with whom you are compatible.

But again, how in the world do you know this?

We’re in a loop here.

Just1Z

@Susan
“I don’t see the link to feminists”

I didn’t mean that the research was done by feminists. I don’t doubt the research, it’s just that most non-math types appear to have problems understanding what it actually means in practice – i.e. that kids with fathers over 40 are NOT doomed to automatic genetic disaster, just that the risks have gone up from a low number to a slightly less low number.

But I have seen the femininits throw all the science stuff out and just use the ‘well men shouldn’t have kids late either because they have defects’ line that they take from the research. you haven’t? I’m sure that I’ve seen it on this blog in the past.

it’s the feminits favourite counter to declining female fertility – ‘oooh oooh but older men have genetic issues!!!! so it’s the “same”‘

there’s some kind of ‘fairness issue’ involved, I think.
women have the menopause, so men have to have a problem too

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Just1Z

But I have seen the femininits throw all the science stuff out and just use the ‘well men shouldn’t have kids late either because they have defects’ line that they take from the research. you haven’t? I’m sure that I’ve seen it on this blog in the past.

I can’t say I’ve ever seen that no, though it wouldn’t surprise me. The point is, I have seen zero articles trumping up this research in the way you suggest. It’s been reported in a dispassionate way as scientific discovery. As I pointed out in my comment yesterday, the press release was clear to specify that only 2% of men might even be affected.

Frankly, I can’t recall feminists even addressing fertility issues, as most of them are against having children.

IDK why people see the feminism bogeyman here. Sometimes there really is no hidden agenda, and I certainly don’t have one. I’d like to be able to report something objectively without starting a gender war.

INTJ

@ Megaman

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that sequence of events. You’ve got a pretty superficial view of what serial monogamy really entails. Most people don’t enter a relationship with the intent to jump out of it.

Nope. They don’t usually rule out making the relationship permanent. But they often don’t plan on making it permanent either.

They try their best to make a go of it, but it usually takes several tries before they’re successful (on average). Though not for 19% of married men and 32% of married women.

That’s pretty nice to hear. I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason the male statistic is lower is that the women are marrying older guys. Still, it’s good, and now I just need to find those ex-mormons.

INTJ

@ Just1Z

I don’t think Susan was doing the whole “right back at you” feminist thing about age. I think she was just throwing me and Cooper a bone.

INTJ

@ Olive

I find it amazing that, after all the fairly sniveling remarks you’ve addressed to INTJ, he continues to answer your posts in a considerably level-headed way, in a generous tone (654 is a case in point). He may not provide the data you want (then again, the vast majority of people who comment here do not speak in numbers, just a thought), but don’t you think it’d be appropriate to lower your weapon, in the spirit of Christmas? Looks like Susan and Mike C have called off the war for the time being.

Thanks. I’m really not interested in arguing with Megaman or anyone. I just want to have constructive dialogue. Additionally, I’m not inclined to search up data for every statement I make, especially given that a) data can be misleading b) it takes a lot of time to find such studies c) much of this stuff has not been studied, because the evo-psych guys have only recently started doing their stuff and before them the feminists wouldn’t have allowed any of this to get studied.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Additionally, I’m not inclined to search up data for every statement I make

That’s fine, but know that your opinion will then carry minimal weight. You have had a tendency to dismiss reams of highly reliable data without justification and then state that you can’t be bothered to come up with something better. That just makes you Mr. No, a not very appealing blog persona.

This only applies to your arguments about data – I enjoy your general commentary.

Lokland

@OTC

“Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.”

+1.

I see no reason to stop shopping after getting married if the goal is better.
Contentment is a much more realistic goal, why that is not possible with only one partner (25% men, 45% women, N of 2 or less when married) strikes me as an attempt at cake eating.

People who extend upwards in terms of relationship count must have problems with:
a) incapable of creating a lasting relationship
b) incapable of choosing a partner to form a lasting relationship with
c) higher partner counts leading to decreased satisfaction

Lets not try and make the failures feel better. If you have a continuous string of relationships that last less than a year theres something wrong with you. Your not shopping, you suck at being in relationships.

Lokland

@INTJ

“I don’t think Susan was doing the whole “right back at you” feminist thing about age.”

I disagree. I wouldn’t have gone at it so fervently if that had not been the implied message.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

I disagree. I wouldn’t have gone at it so fervently if that had not been the implied message.

That was certainly not my intent. Someone else showed up to stir the pot and set up the question of who is more genetically compromised at age 35, and that began the competitive nastiness.

As I pointed out earlier, I linked to that study last week with no editorializing whatsoever in my post about why women should date older men. I then went on to suggest that the risk was minimal and far outweighed by the benefits.

My mistake was in taking the bait. Won’t happen again.

INTJ

@ Susan

Not just that, most people will benefit enormously from dating a number of people before they find their life partner. From an economics standpoint, this is rational, as it is very unlikely that your first boyfriend or girlfriend is the best you can do. Dating is shopping, you rarely want to buy the first thing you see. If you do, you’ll likely never know if you paid too much or what was available at other locations.

I’m perfectly fine with dating plenty of people. I actually put that in my post with the serial dating. It’s the mating and emotional pair-bonding that I’d rather keep to a minimum.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

It’s the mating and emotional pair-bonding that I’d rather keep to a minimum.

Fair enough.

Lokland

@Olive

“Since we’re discussing genes, I have a rather OT question. I have a de novo SALL1 mutation, which causes Townes-Brocks Syndrome, and I had a relatively old father (40, when I was born). I’m probably a bad example, as TBS is apparently extremely rare (the wikipedia article about it claims only 250 people worldwide have it, but I don’t think that’s true, I think people just go undiagnosed). But is it possible that this is one of those examples of an old father having a kid with a genetic disease?”

Must be rare. I’ve never heard of it.

Based on my quick google read, the mutation occurred either before you were conceived or very early after your conception.

Its entirely possible that it happened in your father.
It also could have been within the first few rounds of cell division after egg and sperm met and effects most (but not all) cells in your body.

Its possible but honestly I probably couldn’t figure it out if you were standing in front of me and I had a team sticking needles in you.

What might be interesting is to test your eggs, see if the germ line is affected. (Also expensive as all hell.)
However, its kind of irrelevant unless you plan on not having kids unless they can be TBS free.

If you want kids, nothing you can do about it. Enjoy the ride.

Conclusion, possible, but there are other ways it could have occurred as well. Fact is, it occurred. Determining why is irrelevant at this point.

PS You have a hearing problem if I remember, correct?

Ted D

OTC – “Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.”

My sentiments exactly! I hate, hate, hate that we talk about all this like we are indeed shopping for a brand new car. (despite the fact that I use car analogies a lot here…) For goodness sakes, you are supposed to be finding a life-long partner. You can NEVER know if the person you marry today will be the same person you are with in 20 years, because we all change!
So, why wander for a decade or more “window shopping” when you should be finding someone you can work with, and building a life together?

INTJ – “I’m not inclined to search up data for every statement I make, especially given that a) data can be misleading b) it takes a lot of time to find such studies c) much of this stuff has not been studied, because the evo-psych guys have only recently started doing their stuff and before them the feminists wouldn’t have allowed any of this to get studied.”

Yep. I don’t go looking for data either, because IMO there isn’t much, and what we have is questionable at best. If I were actually working on a complete redesign of the SMP where I was in charge of destruction and construction, I’d order a TON of studies done today that would have useful info. But honestly, what we have now is often guesswork and theory wrapped around small data sets (meaning a few thousand people in the study at BEST)

Plus, no amount of data is going to change what I see right down the street from me. I’ll concede that what I see everyday might be a regional thing, which is partly why I enjoy chatting here. Everyone is from somewhere else! And what I’ve learned is: for the most part, what I see is what everyone else sees IF they don’t live in some UMC area. I’ve seen very similar environments to my local one from many other men here and elsewhere on the web, so I’m at least convinced that although the troubles here in Pittsburgh might not apply to the entire nation, they DO apply to a very large subset of the nations poorer communities, and unlike Susan, I’m not very concerned about the plight of the UMC young with finding a mate. Don’t get me wrong, I think it sucks they have it tough, but their version of “tough” and what I see kids around here going through are barely even related. Take the troubles of your average Ivy League college girl with finding a mate, and add drugs, crime, and piss poor earnings (often with single motherhood) and you might get an idea of what I’m talking about.

Hell, I was just visiting my daughter’s friend that got pregnant (Just had her baby a few weeks ago) in her new public assistance housing, and I was nervous having my children there. We didn’t stay long, because the place was scary. I wouldn’t drive through it at night! Is she having problems finding a good guy to marry? Well sure! The difference is: if an ivy league graduate has trouble finding a mate, they can still live a pretty damn good life alone. This girl is behind the 8-ball and even IF she can find a decent guy, they will probably be behind it together. And, considering her current environment, I don’t have much hope she’ll find any ‘decent’ men around at all…

Ted D

“I’m perfectly fine with dating plenty of people. I actually put that in my post with the serial dating. It’s the mating and emotional pair-bonding that I’d rather keep to a minimum.”

THIS!!! I have NO issue at all with young people “dating” a lot, and often, with LOTS of different people. But, “dating” does not equal “sexxing”, and there is the problem. Date all you want! How else will you learn what personality traits you want in a mate? But, you don’t have to have sex to learn about someone’s personality. And you don’t need to “test drive” every car you look at as a purchase. You ONLY test drive the car you are pretty sure you are gonna buy. That is, unless your actual goal is to simply drive a lot of cars that belong to someone else… Kinda sounds to me like the attitude of the most promiscuous among us. You know, just screw everyone that then, when you decide you actually want to OWN a car, pick from the ones no one else put lots of miles on…

Lokland

@JP

I’m Canadian.

I read the Globe and Mail, National Post and then one other depending on how I’m feeling.

I read international news, business and ‘life’ sections. Nothing else.
I also do the Sudoku, sometimes one of the crosswords.

Lokland

@Olive

Your smart. You probably know this but;

I’m not there in front of you.
I’m a stranger in the internet.
Work of the assumption I’m a 90 year old woman and don’t trust anything I say and use it as advice.

Talk to a genetic councillor who can see you face-to-face if you need to make decisions.

Iggles

JP,

I think the issue is usually the first person isn’t the right one. Sometimes you have to have relationship experience – go through at least one or a few to really know what you works for you.

Case in point, my Ex was my first bf. We started dating when I was 20. At 28, I know myself much better and it would have been a disaster to get married! I was carrying both of us – financially, socially, and emotionally was his biggest support. I hated it. I prefer the Captain/First Officer model for relationships – I don’t want to be the one leading it. I loss respect and attraction for him due to him leaning so heavily on me. I now know that for the relationship to work I need a partner who is proactive towards his career (IMO, working at mcdonalds is more admirable than whining about being unemployed while declared certain jobs are “beneath” you ), and who has a vision of the life he wants for himself (ambition and goals!), and can stand on his own two feet.

I don’t think that a tall order. Fortunately, I screened for this when I began dating again. All of the guys I went out had an independent thought streak. I appreciate and respect thisis quality very much in my current boyfriend

Damien Vulaume

@Offthecuff: “Why is the “best” the goal, rather than “good enough to be content”? There’s *always* going to be someone better out there.”
I guess Susan didn’t mean it that way, but nevertehless you make an excellent point, which should be obvious to everyone. Individuals in the west tend to be more and more individualistic, and therefore selfish. They are, especially women since the past few decades, given more and more opportunities to “look elsewhere”. Once we get settled into the habit of a stable relationship, many of us will start to want more than that, i/e looking elsewhere.

@JP: “I think she’s trying to say that you find someone with whom you are compatible. But again, how in the world do you know this?”

Not too hard, if you first take the cautious walk. but it can take long: First you settle down in a relationship, by that I mean living 24h a day with her. You’ll find out soon enough if that woman is compatible. It can take weeks, it can take months, sometimes longer, but you always find out. That’s why you should never marry too quickly, and of course even less quickly to start having kids.

@Szopen.
Ok, I got the picture. I asked because if I had been in a situation with a woman I loved and vice versa, who earned more money than me or worse, had I been unemployed, my “male pride” would have made me leave her ONLY if she started to nag me about not finding a better job or something to that extent, or worse. Anyway, all this was related to Susan’s story about her young female friend and the fool who dropped her.

INTJ

@ Ted D

My sentiments exactly! I hate, hate, hate that we talk about all this like we are indeed shopping for a brand new car. (despite the fact that I use car analogies a lot here…) For goodness sakes, you are supposed to be finding a life-long partner. You can NEVER know if the person you marry today will be the same person you are with in 20 years, because we all change!
So, why wander for a decade or more “window shopping” when you should be finding someone you can work with, and building a life together?

Let me stretch the car analogy here though. I notice most people tend to switch to a newer, sexier car model every several years. Personally, I’m still in love with the old minivan my family bought almost almost 20 years ago. Also, there’s a reason used-cars are so much cheaper.

Additionally, I’d like to relate how I bought my recent laptop, after my old one died (yup I’m a laptop widower). I did plenty of research online into all the laptops, looked at specs and reviews, and chose a laptop I thought I’d want. I chose a high-end Thinkpad, because Thinkpads are very rugged, and with the top quality specs, the hardware should still be competitive several years from now. I then walked into my local notebook store and briefly tried out the laptop keyboard before purchasing it. I didn’t do any hands-on trying out of dozens of laptops or anything.

It’s interesting how closely my computer-shopping style corresponds to my relationship-shopping style.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@Ms. Olive
I’ll admit to being dogged, but not sniveling. What you call level-headed and generous, is evasive. I think I can count on one hand the number of times he’s answered a simple, direct question.

I honestly don’t expect anyone to come armed with facts and figures. That isn’t the issue. Had Mr. INTJ not dismissed ALL information presented here @ HUS by Susan as “crap”, I wouldn’t have hounded him. But that’s what he did. No mea cupla either, just denial. That’s a big pet peeve of mine. Perhaps you missed that enjoyable discussion.

He’s also got a very low opinion of young women. I could quote some his nasty generalizations, particularly about girls who go to community colleges. Never about guys, though. Anything I’ve said about him pales in comparison. Just thought you might like to know…

PS: I’m not at war with anybody. My offer to drop the subject still stands, on one condition. Though I doubt he’ll cease recycling the same BS. Besides, I don’t think he even celebrates Christmas. A ceasefire during the festival of lights would make more sense.

http://7thseriesgongshow.blogspot.com Mr. Nervous Toes

Susan,

There is not strong evidence that autism has its roots in genetics. For example, in identical twins, if one develops autism there’s only about a 60 % chance the other twin will too. There’s never been a particularly strong inheritance correlation. There have been a number of genetic surveys that generally haven’t identified a solid candidate — only about 25 % of autism cases can be linked to a gene loci. The rest are all, who knows?

E.g.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764594

Most of the research thrust is generally pushing towards a gene expression (i.e. epigenetics) as the potential culprit, which means the health of the womb and the environment that the fetus/infant is raised in. It would also make the health of the womb of the grandmother of the child as important (!!!). For example, women with weak thyroid function are way more likely to pop out autistic kids, especially if their T3/T4 bottoms out at any point in the pregnancy, as that can compromise immune function and breakdown the womb-mother-blood-barrier.

Escoffier

The problem with Susan’s oft-repeated shopping analogy, IMO, is that she can be somewhat unclear and self-contradictory about what it entails.

One the one hand, shopping is literally dating, that is, going on dates or doing things with a variety of people in the search for one who really is a good fit. The danger of not shopping is that a person will “settle” too early and not realize their full MMV potential, or worse, end up with someone less compatible than they might otherwise have found. Presumably, this kind of dating will involve little or no sex. Certainly not sex with everyone dated, or even close.

But she also often seems to mean dating as a series of LTRs, sex included. She will defend this sometimes by saying that people need practice in LTRs, that the one that ends in marriage shouldn’t be the first one. This can lead to the rather absurd notion that if someone really does find the right person early and wants to stay with her, he should dump her because he needs more “practice.” And in fact we know that this is a cultural meme, affecting both men and women, but it seems to men women more.

So, notion one of dating as shopping strikes me as perfectly reasonable provided it’s not an excuse to be a player/ride the carousel. Notion 2 has all kinds of problems that we’ve explored here and elsewhere.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

One the one hand, shopping is literally dating, that is, going on dates or doing things with a variety of people in the search for one who really is a good fit…Presumably, this kind of dating will involve little or no sex.

But she also often seems to mean dating as a series of LTRs, sex included. She will defend this sometimes by saying that people need practice in LTRs, that the one that ends in marriage shouldn’t be the first one.

I’m happy to clarify. It is rather complicated, and perhaps unclear, but I do not believe I have been inconsistent or self-contradictory.

The first thing we need to do is establish the definition of dating circa 2012, within the context of hookup culture. Dating is being in an exclusive relationship with another person, embracing the terms “boyfriend” and “girlfriend” and presenting as a couple socially. It does not necessarily imply sex, though for the majority of young people the relationship is sexual, and may have begun that way.

After college, when 20-somethings try online dating, meet people at work and through friends of friends, etc. the hookup script does not work as well, and there is at least a partial return to traditional dating, meaning the activity of two people going out alone together to become better acquainted, and continuing to see one another on dates as the relationship progresses. This type of dating rarely starts with sexual contact.

Dating in College:

There are many reasons why college aged kids choose to become exclusive and date a boyfriend or girlfriend in college, all of which have been covered here in various posts. Romance, sex, companionship, social support, strong feelings of affection and attraction, and also frequently a desire to avoid the hookup scene entirely or take a break from it. Sexual health/STDs are another reason young people choose relationships, or LTRs, in college.

College students understand that very few people their age marry their college sweethearts today. The 10-12 year period between matriculation and marriage, as well as presumed geographic movement and uncertainty conspire to adjust expectations in this regard. Many students do attempt to stay together after school in long-distance relationships, but most of these do not survive.

I believe that of the three options available to college students: casual sex, relationships, or abstaining from cross-sex interaction altogether, the best of these is relationships. Many more students would like to be in relationships than are. This is true of both sexes.

The process typically looks like this, and generally takes a couple of months:

Hook up —> Round 2 —> Regular hookup —> Together/exclusive —> DTR —> Relationship

Dating After College:

Traditional dating is certainly a form of shopping, and generally continues until two people decide to enter a committed relationship, or LTR. The shopping is for the LTR, not marriage. Very few people in their 20s accept dates, online or otherwise, with the notion of marrying the person if all goes well. Rather, the desire is to become acquainted and test compatibility for a more serious relationship. If all goes well at that point, then taking the relationship to the next level is considered.

The typical process, which might take 3-7 years:

First Date —> Continued dating —> Sex (generally 1-2 months in) —> DTR (generally 4-6 months in) —> Meet family —> Live together —> Marry

I do not believe that an unlimited number of either kind of dating relationships is beneficial. Nor do I believe it is healthy to abstain from either of these processes while waiting for a marital partner, given the typical 10 year timeline.

Both college and post-college dating scenarios give young people the opportunity to develop relationship skills, including compromise, demonstration of love and affection, responsibility for the happiness of another, etc.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@INTJ

I’m really not interested in arguing with Megaman or anyone. I just want to have constructive dialogue.

Fair enough. You were certainly interested in launching a screed against knowledge and how this site was run back in late September. How was that constructive?

Ted D

INTJ – “Let me stretch the car analogy here though. I notice most people tend to switch to a newer, sexier car model every several years. Personally, I’m still in love with the old minivan my family bought almost almost 20 years ago. Also, there’s a reason used-cars are so much cheaper.”

I tend to buy a new car when my current one starts breaking down to the point that it is:
No longer reliable
Costs as much per month to fix as a car payment would.

So, although I use cars as an analogy, I don’t expect people to be replaced when they start to wear out and break. The only reason for someone to “trade up” to a better “model” in a marriage is if they viewed their spouse based on their utility, and not on them as a person. In that case, I can see why a woman might dump a husband that got laid off, because she only saw him as a financial resource. I can see why a man might leave his wife of 20 years for some young thing, because he only saw her as a hot piece of ass.

Where are the people that are with each other because they love and admire the other person? If it was possible, I’d still have my very first car (1975 Dodge Charger) because I loved it. But, as a car, I had to see it for its utility FIRST, and then how I felt about it second. It got old, utility lost, so I replaced it. I don’t expect to replace my wife because she loses “utility”.

Iggles

@ Lokland:

Lets not try and make the failures feel better. If you have a continuous string of relationships that last less than a year theres something wrong with you. Your not shopping, you suck at being in relationships.

I couldn’t agree with you more!

My N and relationship count is the same = 2. My first was 4 years. My current one is coming up on 1 year. I remember recently reading the statistic that most relationships last 3-5 months and being shocked. My perspective is a bit skewed.

That said, it is easy to fall into relationship inertia when you’ve been together for a long time. Both of you are unhappy but you’re so used to being together that you don’t know how to end it. Despite our (many) problems, I would get tears in my eyes at the thought of ending things with my Ex. I literally couldn’t imagine my life without. Today, I can’t imagine my life if I stayed with him! Funny how life can be that way..

INTJ

@ Hope

Just1Z, the Chinese don’t really start wars on foreign countries. They haven’t gone to active war since the Japanese invaded in WWII. Before that, there were rebellions and internal strife with the nationalists who went to Taiwan. Long before that, the Mongols kept invading. They killed their own people during the Cultural Revolution.

So I doubt the Chinese would really try to invade a war-happy country which has a lot more modern military experience over the issue of debt. But this fear is trotted out a lot. IMO, if WWIII starts, it’s going to start in the Middle East or Europe. China, at the top, is not run by risk-taking warmongers, but risk-averse bureaucrats who want personal wealth and glory, and get plenty. The outgoing leader became a secret billionaire.

China is pragmatic and would not be stupid enough to start a war with America over debt. That doesn’t mean China doesn’t start wars with foreign countries though. While the border disputes with the USSR and India are debatable, China’s attack on Vietnam was a clear cut act of aggression.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@SW

True, the key is knowing when to stop the search. I am speaking strictly in economics, or game theory terms here.

Didn’t Lori Gottlieb advise young women to seek out Mr. Pretty Good for marriage instead of staying single and vainly waiting for Mr. Perfect? I recall she was reamed for it, mostly by other women!

Damien Vulaume

@Ted D: “Where are the people that are with each other because they love and admire the other person?”
There are a few, but there are. I know quite a bit about that myself. I guess the real way to put it is rather like this: Where are the people that are with each other because they love and admire the other person, and that are still together.

A Definite Beta Guy

What INTJ said, China has disputes with many nations and is NOT shy about resorting to military force to resolve the question.

That whole portion of the world isn’t super-stable. In the past century, China has had a shooting match with basically all of its neighbors. Japan, SKorea, Vietnam, India, USSR.

Ted D

Iggles – “My N and relationship count is the same = 2.”

Well that makes us of like mind. My N and relationship count is the same =4. So far, the shortest of those relationships is my current marriage. My last marriage lasted almost 13 years (including time together pre-marriage), and the other two LTRs where 4 and 4.5 years respectively.

“That said, it is easy to fall into relationship inertia when you’ve been together for a long time. Both of you are unhappy but you’re so used to being together that you don’t know how to end it. Despite our (many) problems, I would get tears in my eyes at the thought of ending things with my Ex. I literally couldn’t imagine my life without. Today, I can’t imagine my life if I stayed with him! Funny how life can be that way..”

I did the same in my first two LTRs. The thing is, I needed to learn earlier that IF a relationship gets to that point, it’s dead in all but name. Seeing as my first marriage failed, perhaps that was my greatest fault. Not that I didn’t choose well, or put in the effort. But, I never learned when to realize it wasn’t going to work, and instead just put my head down, dug in my heels, and pushed forward harder. *shrug*

Truth is those first few LTRs were probably destined to fail based on my age and the age of my mates. But, had I not found myself in my early 20’s with little to no prospects for gainful employment, that second one might have ran the term. I pretty much tanked that relationship for similar reasons to the description of Susan’s friend. We were together for awhile and things went south for me with money. I got in the dumps, and it eventually forced the relationship into a downward spiral. I was young and inexperienced, she was four years younger and no better off.

At any rate, while in those relationships, I treated them all as a progression to marriage. I wouldn’t have stayed with those young women so long if I didn’t think marriage was in the cards at some point.

Escoffier

Re: Gottlieb, on the surface her advice sounds good, or at least it cuts two ways. You could interpret her to be saying that women need to learn to rein in their hypergamy and also to learn to maximize their MMV by locking down the highest value male in their 20s rather than waiting until 40 when the pickins are slimmer. She addressed this perfectly when she said that a 28y/o 8 would not commit to a male 8, only to discover at 38 that she no longer has any shot at an 8. So, women need to A) stop insisting on 10s and B) stop viewing their 20s as “play time” and get serious.

If that’s what she meant by “settling,” then it’s good advice. Unfortunately, that’s not really what she meant. I did not read the whole book but I read some of it and I read the Atlantic piece on which it was based. It’s quite clear that she means, get a man for a help-mate whether you love him or not. In other words, she is explicitly advocating what manosphere types identify as the deliberate exploitation of betas.

Lokland

@Susan

“Someone else showed up to stir the pot and set up the question of who is more genetically compromised at age 35, and that began the competitive nastiness.”

I know.
Its all good.

Be as competitive as you want. Its cool.
Start sensationalizing and I’ll be looming with a raised eyebrow.

Also, Mr. NT seems to know more about the genetic link to mental disorders then I do.
I’ll defer to anything he says unless it involves unicorns prancing around on the chromosome.

@Iggles

“I couldn’t agree with you more!”

Obviously.
Whats funny is I defend this method while not having practiced it myself.
I still obviously see it as better.

JP

@Susan:

“I’d say if you’re in love and feel very fortunate to have those feelings requited, by all means lock it down. In my case, I had strong feelings for a couple of people back in the day who I am very, very glad I did not marry.”

OK, I think I see a communications issue here.

I’m going to use INTJ and myself as an example here, you scan correct me if I’m wrong about your dating history. INTJ will certainly correct me if I’m wrong.

In my situation, all of my relationships prior to marriage ended because I broke them off (I’m omitting the one that was never going to go anywhere on mutual agreement at the beginning – A DTR where we were distinctly not in love with each other).

INTJ doesn’t want his heart to get broken. This is understandable, and I don’t understand how getting your heart broken is helpful. You pointed out that *you* had your heart broken before. This is somewhat incomprehensible to me given my experiences.

Usually, my feelings were not strong enough for the other person. So, there was no way I was getting my heart broken here, because I wasn’t emotionally entangled. The one time my feelings were stronger, I got annoyed because she was cold, so to speak, so there was never any danger in me getting my heart broken because it was obvious that she wasn’t into me. I have no idea why *she* decided to date me, but that’s another story. That was easy. I realized the “relationship” was inane, so I cut it off.

Anyhow, the first and only time the feelings ever lined up, I immediately got married because it had failed every single time before due to complete imbalance as to romantic interest.

However, in your case, it sounds like you did have feelings lined up, where you were each actually into each other, and you didn’t get married. This thoroughly confuses me.

This seems to be exactly what INTJ is worried about. Mutual intense feelings not leading to marriage.

I never got my heart broken. How in the world is getting your heart broken beneficial in any way, shape, or form? How could this possibly help INTJ with his life? He’s just going to end up scarred (like my married once, never again cousin)

JP

scan = can

JP

We’re back to N again.

What on God’s Green Earth is “N” within the context of this comments section?

I can’t comment on N because I can’t tell what my own N is!

I know how many people I’ve dated, but I’ve got no clue whether they count as N!

JP

@Lolkand:

“I did not read the whole book but I read some of it and I read the Atlantic piece on which it was based. It’s quite clear that she means, get a man for a help-mate whether you love him or not. In other words, she is explicitly advocating what manosphere types identify as the deliberate exploitation of betas.”

I’m going to agree with Lokland here.

Settling = Not madly in love; marrying to marry.

Ted D

JP – here we use N to represent the Number of sexual partners in your past.

So in my case, N = 4 means I’ve had P in V sex with four women in my lifetime.

Ted D

“Settling = Not madly in love; marrying to marry.”

Add me to the list here. I agree that settling on a guy you don’t really love “just to marry” is BAD mojo.

But, if by “settling” she meant women should get realistic about exactly what kind of man they want to marry? Yeah, I’m 100% behind that.

Iggles

@ Ted D:

I did the same in my first two LTRs. The thing is, I needed to learn earlier that IF a relationship gets to that point, it’s dead in all but name. Seeing as my first marriage failed, perhaps that was my greatest fault. Not that I didn’t choose well, or put in the effort. But, I never learned when to realize it wasn’t going to work, and instead just put my head down, dug in my heels, and pushed forward harder. *shrug*

Right. This is an important lesson to learn!

Not sure how else to learn it, without actually being in a relationship. I pick up a lot of what *not* to do from seeing other peoples mistakes, but this doesn’t seem detectable that way. It’s a different view when you’re going through it. Experience brings wisdom in this case. (FTR, I think 95% of relationship mistakes can be avoided by not repeating what you’ve seen others do!)

At any rate, while in those relationships, I treated them all as a progression to marriage. I wouldn’t have stayed with those young women so long if I didn’t think marriage was in the cards at some point.

Same here

I don’t get the point of entering a LTR with someone you can’t see yourself marrying and/or having kids (if you want them, that is!). I feel that it’s a dealbreaker if they don’t inspire you to envision building a life together.

Cooper

@JP Re: N
Rofl.
*smack* Catch up!

JP

In that case, my N is 1.

I’ve had plenty of relationships, by my philosophy always was that if you had sex, you were essentially morally obligated to marry the person. You only get one chance to get it right. I used the same philosophy with my career, although I was willing to change jobs once. That was hard, given that my perfectionism ideal was one employer for one career (once you choose a career, of course).

This avoided STD’s and any potential children.

This has more to do with my perfectionism/idealism/stubbornness than anything else.

I wasn’t particularly religious growing up, but I was very perfectionistic/high academic achievement/A “B” in any class meas that you have failed type of person.

INTJ

@ JP

Yup that’s exactly the thing. I don’t want to get my heart broken. I’ve seen to many guys who have, and it aint pretty.

Lokland

@INTJ

“It’s the mating and emotional pair-bonding that I’d rather keep to a minimum.”

Why not include the mating and skip the emotional pair bonding?

They are not interconnected (yet when you do pair bond, sex is the best way to show your love, funny how that works).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Why not include the mating and skip the emotional pair bonding?

They are not interconnected (yet when you do pair bond, sex is the best way to show your love, funny how that works).

Helen Fisher says that men can and do fall in love as a result of having sex:

“Fisher maintains that humans have evolved three core brain systems for mating and reproduction:

Lust—the sex drive or libido
Romantic attraction—romantic love
Attachment—deep feelings of union with a long term partner.

“Love can start off with any of these three feelings,” Fisher maintains. “Some people have sex first and then fall in love. Some fall head over heels in love, then climb into bed. Some feel deeply attached to someone they have known for months or years; then circumstances change, they fall madly in love and have sex.” But the sex drive evolved to encourage you to seek a range of partners; romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just one at a time; and attachment evolved to enable you to feel deep union to this person long enough to rear your infants as a team.”
But these brain systems can be tricky. Having sex, Fisher says, can drive up dopamine in the brain and push you over the threshold toward falling in love. And with orgasm, you experience a flood of oxytocin and vasopressin–giving you feelings of attachment. “Casual sex isn’t always casual” Fisher reports, “it can trigger a host of powerful feelings.” In fact, Fisher believes that men and women often engage in “hooking up” to unconsciously trigger these feelings of romance and attachment.”

Damien Vulaume

@INTJ: “I don’t want to get my heart broken. I’ve seen to many guys who have, and it aint pretty.”

I sympathize with that. I was there after a heartbreak. But you can’t say you don’t want to dive in the swimming pool because you fear cold water before trying to test the actual temperature of the water.

Damien Vulaume

@Lokland: “yet when you do pair bond, sex is the best way to show your love, funny how that works.”

I would agree with you on that one. That’s why I don’t understand this “FWB” concept.

Lokland

@Damien

“That’s why I don’t understand this “FWB” concept.”

Its kind of like taking advantage of a stupid person for their money,
except the person is a women and the money is sex.

Except, in a FWB situation, the stupid person is giving you money for absolutely no reason whatsoever (we must assume is gives them so benefit or they wouldn’t do it, or the wires are not crossed right or they assume they can flip it into a relationship).

“Hi want a $100?”
“Hi want to have NSA sex?”

JP

And in defense of INTJ, here’s another psychology article telling us why he wants to avoid it.

“Battered by Biology

Because our brains are wired from the beginning for bonding, breakups batter us biologically. Initially, says Rutgers University anthropologist Helen Fisher, everyone reacts to rejection like a drug user going through withdrawal. In the early days and weeks after a breakup, she has found, just thinking about the lover who dumped us activates several key areas of the brain—the ventral tegmental area of the midbrain, which controls motivation and reward and is known to be involved in romantic love; the nucleus accumbens and the orbitofrontal/prefrontal cortex, part of the dopamine reward system and associated with craving and addiction; and the insular cortex and anterior cingulate, associated with physical pain and distress.

As reported in a recent issue of the Journal of Neurophysiology, Fisher rounded up 15 people who had just experienced romantic rejection, put them in an fMRI machine, and had them look at two large photographs: an image of the person who had just dumped them and an image of a neutral person to whom they had no attachment. When the participants looked at the images of their rejecters, their brains shimmered like those of addicts deprived of their substance of choice.

“We found activity in regions of the brain associated with cocaine and nicotine addiction,” Fisher says. “We also found activity in a region associated with feelings of deep attachment, and activity in a region that’s associated with pain.”

Fisher’s work corroborates the findings of UCLA psychologist Naomi Eisenberger, who discovered that social rejection activates the same brain area—the anterior cingulate—that generates an adverse reaction to physical pain. Breakups likely stimulate pain to notify us how important social ties are to human survival and to warn us not to sever them lightly.

Although Eisenberger didn’t study romantic rejection, she expects that it actually feels much worse than the social rejection she did document. “If you’re getting pain-related activity from someone you don’t care about, it would presumably be a lot more painful from someone you share memories with,” she points out.”

http://www.psychologytoday.com/collections/201211/the-indecisive-lover/the-thoroughly-modern-guide-breakups?page=2

Ted D

L0kland – “Why not include the mating and skip the emotional pair bonding?

They are not interconnected (yet when you do pair bond, sex is the best way to show your love, funny how that works).”

that is an easy one. Because people like myself value the emotional pair bonding part of “sex” more than the act itself. Sex without emotion to me is wasting time and energy for very little, while increasing risks of STDs.

In short, I don’t and have never had sex just for the orgasm. In fact, there are plenty of times when I enjoy other parts of sex with my wife FAR MORE than the orgasm I get at the end. Some nights its all about me and what I want. Other nights I put 100% of my effort into rocking my wife’s world in bed, and don’t care at all about the “quality” of my experience at the time. I get mine when I want it, but sometimes I want her to “get hers” more than I want my own. I get off on getting her off, and that actually doesn’t even require that I get mine, although she always makes sure I do regardless.

Sassy6519

I’ve had around 4 relationships so far, so that’s not too bad. I tend to end things during the dating phase, so I’ve dated a lot of people.

Damien Vulaume

@Lokland: “Its kind of like taking advantage of a stupid person for their money, except the person is a women and the money is sex.”
Yes, I got that part. And I’ve done it in my early 20’s, nothing I feel proud about. For in the end it didn’t make me fullfied, there was always something missing. Long story….but I hope you guess it.
I don’t want to sound like I hold a higher moral ground here, but it is to me obvious that taking advantage of people for your own selfish interest, whether you’re talking about corruption in the business world or getting sex from gullible targets is not something you want to indefinetly pursue in life…

Mike C

Its kind of like taking advantage of a stupid person for their money, except the person is a women and the money is sex.

Except, in a FWB situation, the stupid person is giving you money for absolutely no reason whatsoever (we must assume is gives them so benefit or they wouldn’t do it, or the wires are not crossed right or they assume they can flip it into a relationship).

Lokland,

Very often in FWB situations you have a substantial SMV differential. The simple reality is many men have a different bar for the woman they will make a girlfriend, introduce to parents and friends and generally be happy to be seen with everywhere by everyone. The bar is lower for the 1 AM girl or the FWB. Speaking honestly, I’ve had one FWB arrangement. She was easily the lowest SMV girl I’ve been with. To be clear, she pretty much put it out there for the taking….eventually I wasn’t going to pass on the easy offer on the table. So it may not be just an issue of being stupid, but miscalibrating one’s SMV. If a woman has found herself in multiple FWB arrangements, odds are pretty good she is going for men whose SMV is significantly above her ownnj

Escoffier

Sounds to me like FWB is both the stupidest aspect of today’s screwed up SMP and also just about the stupidist mistake a girl can make.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

INTJ, fair point, although short border disputes are not on the same level as going halfway across the globe to invade a country, so that’s why the idea of China invading the US seems far-fetched to me.

Olive, I am sorry to hear about your health troubles and the genetic issues. I work with some genetic counselors, and my husband and I met with one after we had the stillbirth and miscarriage (chromosomal abnormalities; we were both 27). I second the suggestion to talk to them.

Damien Vulaume

@Escoffier: “Sounds to me like FWB is both the stupidest aspect of today’s screwed up SMP and also just about the stupidist mistake a girl can make.”

Right on! And for a girl, it surely is the stupidest mistake she can make, even if she’s is not stupid as an individual. And there are many other aspects of the over-coded mating dance hall comedy in American colleges that are to me absurd, starting with what you call DTR.

JP

@Hope:

Here’s the Archduid on a potential future US-China conflict.

He’s using history as a way to show what could happen in the future in his “Fall of American Empire” story.

Enjoy.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/10/how-it-could-happen-part-one-hubris.html

Note: I’m not endorsing this theory because I can’t see how the Great Power dance is going to evolve.

JP

@Hope:

Here’s an article from Xenakis. If you ignore his theories, he’s a good source for interesting International Relations issues.

This is the Nine-Dash Map dispute.

“China’s neighbors are expressing alarm over China’s belligerent new actions in claiming sovereignty over the entire South China Sea, including regions that historically belonged to other countries, including Brunei, the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, and Vietnam. China’s new passports contain the “nine-dash map,” a map that China uses to designate its claims with nine dashes circling the entire South China Sea. As I reported reported two days ago, China is now sending warships to the South China Sea and is preparing to board and take control of any ship in what china considers to be its sovereign “territorial waters.” The Philippines, which refuses to recognize the new Chinese passport, is saying that China’s new military policy is a violation of international laws. One senior Philippine naval officer has a different explanation:

“Those warnings [by China] are not directed at us. They might be trying to find out how far the United States would react because this could affect freedom of navigation in one of the busiest sea lanes in the world. If this is an official policy announced by Beijing, this is very serious and a cause of concern.”

This may be just wishful thinking on the part of the Philippine official. It was just eight months ago that the Philippines were forced to back down in a naval confrontation with China over the Scarborough Shoal, some islands that are clearly the Philippines’ sovereign territory. (See “8-Jul-12 World View — China escalates military buildup in South China Sea”)”

http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=ww2010.weblog&i=e121204#e121204

JP

Hooking Up Smart:

“The People’s Choice for Up-To-The-Minute International Conflict News.”

Sassy6519

I’d say that a FWB situation is only viable for a woman if she is truly capable of separating feelings from sex. I do believe there are women out there who want and thrive in FWB situations. I think they are the minority, however. I won’t say that all women should not engage in FWB situations because there are a small portion of women who like them, for whatever reasons they may be.

Escoffier

What is DTR?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Lokland and Hope,
Thanks for the info (really it was just a curiosity thing) and thanks for the suggestion. I do need to see a genetic counselor about it; the people who diagnosed me are in another state, and it’s one of those situations where they’re supposed to be following me in their clinic (because TBS is so rare), but I haven’t heard from them and meanwhile I’ve gotten really curious.

Lokland,
Yes, I do have a sensorineural bilateral hearing loss. It’s not one of the three main features of TBS, but it’s fairly common (I think in 65% of cases).

Cooper

@Escoffier

Define the relationship

JP

@Escoffier:

“What is DTR?”

Apparently, it means “Define the Relationship”.

I was excited to find out that I had DTRed previously without even realizing I *had* DTRed. I was quite impressed with myself.

In any event, your confusion just shows the problem with being an effictite commenteer here at HUS. It’s confusing.

Of course, some commenteers get confused by the concept of “Cooper”.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

I’ll admit to being dogged, but not sniveling.

How interesting, since you’ve basically called into question INTJ’s character and intelligence, based on the fact that he has chosen not to answer your repeated cries for data. Maybe he has not participated in the discussion here in a manner you think he should, but come now. Last week (or two weeks ago?) I promised to write a long post about global climate change in the forum and I still haven’t done it. Does that automatically make me lazy and evasive?

Here’s the thing: there are two people asking for an explanation from INTJ: you and Susan. The rest of us probably wouldn’t read the miles-long essay he’d need to write to satisfy you, so it’s probably just not worth his time. The goal is to have a good discussion, not to constantly one-up each other. Part of the reason I haven’t written that global climate change post is that I recognize the discussion moved on awhile ago. The same can be said about whatever statement INTJ made about “crap” data, however much it grated on your nerves.

I honestly don’t expect anyone to come armed with facts and figures. That isn’t the issue. Had Mr. INTJ not dismissed ALL information presented here @ HUS by Susan as “crap”, I wouldn’t have hounded him. But that’s what he did. No mea cupla either, just denial. That’s a big pet peeve of mine. Perhaps you missed that enjoyable discussion.

If I saw it, I quickly forgot. That’s what’s weird about your strange need to take INTJ to the cleaners for that one time when…. yadda yadda. Hardly anyone else cares, including him. If you ask him 20 times to justify this or that statement with data, and he still doesn’t, do you think he’ll do it when you ask him the 21st time? Or is your goal to constantly make him out to be a fool?

He’s also got a very low opinion of young women.

*Shrugs* I’ve seen some pretty low opinions of women in my time around these parts, and he doesn’t even come close.

I’m not at war with anybody.

Huh, could’ve fooled me.

JP

effictite = effective.

Ted D

“Sounds to me like FWB is both the stupidest aspect of today’s screwed up SMP and also just about the stupidist mistake a girl can make.”

Exactly. I’d say from worst to least in terms of bad ideas:
1. FWB
2. ONS (believe it or not, I’d say that in terms of potential damage to pair bonding ability, a single ONS is probably less destructive than a FWB. One can hope there was some type of feeling with the “friend”, and that probably means a broken heart was the result)
3. Serial monogamy

Now, I’m talking single instance here. If we are talking about a string of ONS spanning months or years? Then ONS moves up to the top of the list. But, to be completely honest, I can see how a woman might get a single ONS in her past based on inexperience with men. But, she should “learn her lesson” that first time, so repeatedly shooting for the random hookup becomes a real issue.

The problem with woman staying in a FWB situation is, it kinda implies that she is completely OK with being used for sex without anything in return, other than using someone for sex. A ONS *could* have been her way of trying to lock down a commitment that failed (no duh!), but you can’t deny what a FWB relationship is.

Sassy6519

@ Olive

To be fair, this is how things typically break down with INTJ.

Susan: Here is a post I have written, and here is the provided data/research.

INTJ: I think the claims/your claims are bogus, and the data/research is bogus as well.

Susan: Okay, INTJ. Explain what is bogus, why it is bogus, and provide some of your own data/research to back up your claims.

INTJ: I don’t feel the need to provide data for my claims. Your data is still bogus though.

Susan: *bangs head against desk*

INTJ has been asked repeatedly to provide some data/research of his own to back up his claims. I think he has provided data/research once or twice, which pales in comparison to the number of times that he has complained about Susan’s data/research. I’m with Megaman and Susan on this. Either he puts up or he shuts the hell up. Otherwise, things will remain tedious and annoying with him. I’m not surprised by or opposed to the flack he has been getting.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Sassy,
Yeah, I guess I get annoyed by tone more than anything else (that sort of goes along with my whole history here, it was ultimately Doug1’s tone I couldn’t stand). Also, Megaman once struck me as one of the most productive, generous male commenters here, and now that half his comments are spent getting on INTJ’s case about data, in a very unproductive manner, my high opinion has deteriorated. I mean, sometimes INTJ says exactly the same thing as Ted, or whoever, and the response is immediately “where do you get that idea? Do you have data?”

INTJ,
I guess the lesson here is: just don’t talk about “questionable” data, if you aren’t at least willing to spend a lot of time debunking a study’s design.

INTJ

@ Sassy6519

Susan: Okay, INTJ. Explain what is bogus, why it is bogus, and provide some of your own data/research to back up your claims.

INTJ: I don’t feel the need to provide data for my claims. Your data is still bogus though.

That’s a strawman though. Whether or not there is any better alternative data should not have any bearing on whether we should accept and use the existing data.

To use a physics analogy, there might not be any good alternatives to String Theory, but that doesn’t mean String Theory should be accepted.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Whether or not there is any better alternative data should not have any bearing on whether we should accept and use the existing data.

The problem, quite frankly, is that you are not qualified to call research bogus without investigating it. Otherwise it’s just willful ignorance and ill-informed opinion.

I reject most studies and data for posts. I only write about those I feel have merit, after reading them thoroughly and considering the data very specifically. I am not a professional statistician, and I’m sure I have published some iffy studies, but by and large I am willing to stand by what I discuss here, unless I say otherwise.

I don’t expect you to put in the same kind of time or work, obviously, but a snarky claim of bogosity is very frustrating after I’ve spent anywhere from 4-10 hours on a single post.

JP

@INTJ:

“To use a physics analogy, there might not be any good alternatives to String Theory, but that doesn’t mean String Theory should be accepted.”

Where did you get the idea that there aren’t good alternatives to String Theory?

Do you have any data to back up this “idea” of yours?

Ted D

“I mean, sometimes INTJ says exactly the same thing as Ted, ”

That is because great minds think alike!

and also, I tend to phrase it more as “I don’t care what the data says, I see XYZ every day of my life…” I don’t necessarily dispute that the study got the results reported, I question if the study is valid at all. And, before we go into it, the issue is the data he and I would need isn’t available, because no one has the guts to ask the right questions.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

I tend to phrase it more as “I don’t care what the data says, I see XYZ every day of my life…”

Anecdotes is not the plural of data.

I am not interested in sharing broad conclusions about the mating behaviors of pregnant teens in Pittsburgh. I am interested in understanding the SMP at a macro level, and providing the kind of information most useful to my target market: educated young men and women aged 18+.

I guess this is a way of saying that I don’t care if you don’t care. I will continue to write what I care about.

INTJ

@ Olive

I guess the lesson here is: just don’t talk about “questionable” data, if you aren’t at least willing to spend a lot of time debunking a study’s design.

I have made specific complaints about studies in the past. I gave up for two reasons, though. First, Susan holds that the studies she used, however faulty, and the best source of information, and I need to provide alternative studies rather than simply debunk them. While I disagree with this position, (I think direct observations and anecdotes provide valuable alternative information compared to studies that often say very little), I accept that this is the position Susan takes, and have provided alternative studies if and when I find any. Second, Megaman dumped a list of a few dozen studies and wanted me to go through every one of them and accept or debunk all of them individually. I had neither the time nor the inclination to do this.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

(I think direct observations and anecdotes provide valuable alternative information compared to studies that often say very little)

No social scientist will agree with you. Anecdote is a logical fallacy, and in the sphere it is downright dangerous, because confirmation bias is so extreme.

There are studies that consist of in-depth interviews, and it is key that subjects are randomly selected. For example, PUAs telling stories about women in bars digging jerks are bound to be highly unreliable. If reliability cannot be insured or even addressed, the source is bad.

INTJ

@ JP

Where did you get the idea that there aren’t good alternatives to String Theory?

Do you have any data to back up this “idea” of yours?

I knew someone would bring this up. As of now, there is no theory that has been rigorously proven to reproduce the limits of both quantum mechanics and general relativity. Loop Quantum Gravity is a good candidate, but it’s as yet a work in progress.

I think the analogy is fine, because rightly or wrongly, String Theorists claim that their theory is the best theory amongst the alternatives. That is a straw-man, since just because it is better than the alternatives doesn’t mean we should accept String Theory. It has some real problems that prevent us from accepting it.

Ted D

“Megaman dumped a list of a few dozen studies and wanted me to go through every one of them and accept or debunk all of them individually. I had neither the time nor the inclination to do this.”

Nor does anyone here at HUS have any claim on how we individually spend our time. If this was a blog about physics, I’d be behind Megaman 100% here, because there is plenty of hard data to use for such a discussion.

The stuff we discuss here is not easy to define even WITH accurate data, and the issue to me (and INTJ I believe) is that the little data we have could very well be faulty, based simply on looking at the studies and how they were conducted. I don’t see any issue with discounting a study based on a faulty premise or on how it was conducted, without having another study on hand to prove my point. Why do I need counter data to call foul on someones research?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

I don’t see any issue with discounting a study based on a faulty premise or on how it was conducted, without having another study on hand to prove my point. Why do I need counter data to call foul on someones research?

That’s fair. Can you think of one single instance where you discounted a study only after evaluating its premise and methodology? I can’t.

Damien Vulaume

@Sassy: “I’d say that a FWB situation is only viable for a woman if she is truly capable of separating feelings from sex.”

Yes, that’s what I saw. And if suits them that way, that’s fine with me, there’s no need to call them name, as long as they don’t keep a boyfriend they lie to on the side.

“I do believe there are women out there who want and thrive in FWB situations. I think they are the minority, however.”

Yes, I totally agree. In the end, I think that most women that indulge in multi partnerships are more testing the water than looking for sex thrills. Well, if they can do both, there’s nothing wrong with it either, as long as they come out of it emotionally unscathed.

JP

@INTJ:

I was joking…but now that we are discussing string theory (yet another now-popular HUS topic)…

What are the real problems with string theory?

I’m a fan of mirror Calabi-Yau manifolds myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabi_Yau

@Susan:

I once talked about Calabi-Yau manifolds at a party because I had a bit too much to drink. My wife still reminds me about my adventures that evening.

I vowed to myself “never again”.

INTJ

@ Lokland

Why not include the mating and skip the emotional pair bonding?

They are not interconnected (yet when you do pair bond, sex is the best way to show your love, funny how that works).

I think I might do that. I could always avoid emotional investment to avoid getting hurt, and then escalate emotionally if and when the likelihood of a permanent relationship goes up.

This goes back to why the Golden Rule should be ditched. I’ve always avoided mating without emotional pair-bonding because I would not be interested in a woman who has mated without emotional pair-bonding. But of course, women care very little (if at all), about a male’s sexual history, so there is no reason for me to follow the Golden Rule here.

Sassy6519

@ INTJ

That’s a strawman though. Whether or not there is any better alternative data should not have any bearing on whether we should accept and use the existing data.

To use a physics analogy, there might not be any good alternatives to String Theory, but that doesn’t mean String Theory should be accepted.

I forgot to mention that you also say this.

INTJ: Susan, I think your data/research is bogus. Here is how I think the SMP really works. *Insert INTJ’s opinions on how the SMP works*

Susan: Okay, provide some data/research to back up how you you view the SMP.

INTJ: I don’t feel like looking up data.

You say Susan’s data/research is bogus, offer your own ideas about the SMP, then don’t provide any data/research to back up your assertions. You basically take massive dumps on Susan’s work, claim it’s wrong, offer your own opinions, then you don’t offer any research.

At this point, what Susan has provided is the best that we can go off of. If you believe that what she offers isn’t good, fine. If you suggest other ways, and want people to seriously jump on board with them, back up your assertions with data. Since you can’t seem to do that, why should we listen to you? Susan’s data may not be “the best”, in your opinion, but it’s better than nothing and more than you have provided us.

INTJ

@ JP

What are the real problems with string theory?

They seem to be creating extra dimensions for the purposes of unification, when there is no experimental reason to do so. Basically, they’re creating a model for how they think the universe should work, and then running with it.

Keep in mind of course that theoretical physics is outside my scope of knowledge. I’m an applied physicist, and while I have studied quantum mechanics and special relativity in depth, I have not studied general relativity and don’t know the actual mathematical formulations of String Theory, Quantum Loop Gravity, etc. (though I think these mathematical behemoths are difficult to grasp for even the best theoreticians).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’m an applied physicist

Really? My brother had to get a doctorate to call himself that. Do you mean that you are a physics major?

Tasmin

@Esc
“Sounds to me like FWB is both the stupidest aspect of today’s screwed up SMP and also just about the stupidist mistake a girl can make.”
+1
The FWB relationship seems to be the hybrid state of hookup culture and dating. Unlike a random hookup or ONS, the FWB is a relationship, a dynamic agreement with highly subjective and variant levels of investment. With the price of sex bottoming out it and the sentiment that real dating is difficult, time consuming, and too often disappointing, it makes sense that the FWB would actually *appear* to be a pretty good deal.

There is just enough potential for *more* than just sex to entice those with a relationship mindset and for the non-relationship minded person with a no-strings preference, once established the barrier-to-entry is actually lower than that of pursuing a ONS, all while emotional investment is essentially a violation of the agreement.

While I’ve never been in one, I’ve seen plenty, and while the SMV delta as Mike C suggests is probably quite common, I think the situation entraps people with bait that has a much further reach than just the ability to play over your head.

Ever hear guys say “women have needs too”, “she’s a mature woman with her own needs” or women say “I’ve got needs” and the like? Somewhere along the line, the “Equality” and “Empowerment” indoctrination has elevated this notion of “needs” (sex) as merely an itch to be scratched. Rationalizing the act as a “need” or serving someone else’s “need” helps keep it compartmentalized and appear rather egalitarian. The reality of course is that its a classic arrangement of favoring the short-term over the long-term with incredibly high opportunity costs. It is very rarely a win-win, particularly when those hidden costs begin to surface over time.

INTJ

@ Ted D

The stuff we discuss here is not easy to define even WITH accurate data, and the issue to me (and INTJ I believe) is that the little data we have could very well be faulty, based simply on looking at the studies and how they were conducted. I don’t see any issue with discounting a study based on a faulty premise or on how it was conducted, without having another study on hand to prove my point. Why do I need counter data to call foul on someones research?

Exactly. My original point (the one which started Megaman’s crusade) was that there is too little data from which meaningful conclusions can be drawn for the relationship stuff we’re discussing here, and that we shouldn’t have an over-reliance on studies.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

My original point (the one which started Megaman’s crusade) was that there is too little data from which meaningful conclusions can be drawn for the relationship stuff we’re discussing here, and that we shouldn’t have an over-reliance on studies.

False. The science of relationships is a burgeoning field, and many experts are highly respected and well-established. There are debates even within the various disciplines, and I have highlighted some of them.

As my Definitive Survey post this summer demonstrated, there is now a large number of studies examining the sexual and relationship behavior of college students. They are remarkably consistent – findings have been replicated many times over. We really do know who is having sex and how often on campus. Continued denial really does look like cowering in fear of having one’s biases exposed.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

Slight tangent, but I find the title of “Archdruid” giggle-worthy, as I have a level 90 druid in WoW.

Re: FWB being The Dumbest Mistake… what about becoming a single mother?

JP

@INTJ:

” I’m an applied physicist, and while I have studied quantum mechanics and special relativity in depth, I have not studied general relativity and don’t know the actual mathematical formulations of String Theory, Quantum Loop Gravity, etc. (though I think these mathematical behemoths are difficult to grasp for even the best theoreticians).”

Any thoughts on quantum entanglement?

It seems like you need the extra dimensions to explain the fact that these effects are not affected by distance.

Meaning that if you push on one end of the box, the other end moves even if it’s 20 light years away.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/140739-stanfords-quantum-entanglement-device-brings-us-one-step-closer-to-quantum-cryptography

This is why I don’t necessarily answer the question “what are you thinking about” when my wife asks me.

She really doesn’t want to hear the phrase “Quantum Cryptography” even though that is one of my current periodic trains of thought.

Damien Vulaume

@Hope: “The Dumbest Mistake… what about becoming a single mother?”
What about another way to look at the same question: Are single mothers really happy?

INTJ

@ Ted D

that is an easy one. Because people like myself value the emotional pair bonding part of “sex” more than the act itself. Sex without emotion to me is wasting time and energy for very little, while increasing risks of STDs.

Yup. I can’t say for sure, not having actually done it, but I doubt I’d get too much enjoyment out of no emotions sex. At the same time though, if it’s a requirement to move from the “dating” to “marriage is in our future” stage, I’ll do it, and accept whatever carnal enjoyment I can manage.

Ted D

Sassy – “If you suggest other ways, and want people to seriously jump on board with them, back up your assertions with data. Since you can’t seem to do that, why should we listen to you? ”

No one said you had to listen to INTJ at all. You can tl;dr him all you want, and I bet he won’t be offended.

Just throwing that out there…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

No one said you had to listen to INTJ at all. You can tl;dr him all you want, and I bet he won’t be offended.

I’m offended, and that is what counts.

Ted D

INTJ – “At the same time though, if it’s a requirement to move from the “dating” to “marriage is in our future” stage, I’ll do it, and accept whatever carnal enjoyment I can manage.”

But keep this in mind. IF you decide to go this route, and a relationship doesn’t develop from it, who lost? I mean, if you indeed get nothing from casual sex, maybe no harm or foul. But, what if you HATE it? What if it makes you feel like total and utter shit?

Here is the thing, I get where you and guys like Cooper are coming from. If most relationships seem to start from hookups, then why not? Well, ask yourself: will you truly be good with yourself in 10 years when your N is 10? 20? 30?! Because if at the end of the line you find the love of your life but sold your soul to find her, did you really get what you wanted?

INTJ

@ JP

Any thoughts on quantum entanglement?

It seems like you need the extra dimensions to explain the fact that these effects are not affected by distance.

There’s a loophole there. The Everett relative-state-theory (which is often referred to as the Many-Worlds-Interpretation) actually solves the whole thing.

You’ll have to trust me it solves it for now. The theory is somewhat mindbending, but bug me in a few days if you’re curious. With the grad school applications I’m doing right now, I don’t have the time to apply the brainpower required.

Cooper

What exactly is INTJ arguing, that doesn’t have data?

JP

@Cooper:

“What exactly is INTJ arguing, that doesn’t have data?”

See #762.

Specifically, the Everett relative-state-theory.

I like mirror Calabi-Yau manifolds because they are pretty and I like mirror symmetry, so I’m on Team String Theory.

Are you with me or INTJ here?

INTJ

@ Ted D

Here is the thing, I get where you and guys like Cooper are coming from. If most relationships seem to start from hookups, then why not? Well, ask yourself: will you truly be good with yourself in 10 years when your N is 10? 20? 30?! Because if at the end of the line you find the love of your life but sold your soul to find her, did you really get what you wanted?

Honestly, I’m really torn on this. My inclination has always been to stick to my guns, and that’s what I’ve done so far. Because every time I consider giving in, I wonder “What if things are going to work out without the need for me to compromise? I’ll have compromised for nothing.” But then I worry I’m like the woman who can’t settle down because she’s always worried she can do better.

INTJ

@ JP

Specifically, the Everett relative-state-theory.

I like mirror Calabi-Yau manifolds because they are pretty and I like mirror symmetry, so I’m on Team String Theory.

Are you with me or INTJ here?

ROFL!

INTJ

@ Cooper

What exactly is INTJ arguing, that doesn’t have data?

Well the last incident involved me saying that prior to getting married in their late 20s, college women who don’t opt out of relationships tend to get relationships with guys who’re high on the asshole spectrum.

Of course, no one has done a direct study into whether this is or isn’t the case.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Well the last incident involved me saying that prior to getting married in their late 20s, college women who don’t opt out of relationships tend to get relationships with guys who’re high on the asshole spectrum.

Of course, no one has done a direct study into whether this is or isn’t the case.

We have lots of good information, all cited here before, that demonstrates clearly this isn’t the case:

1. In Paula England’s survey of more than 20,000 college students, 74 percent of women and about an equal number of men say they’ve had a relationship in college that lasted at least six months.

2. Also England: About 66 percent of women say they wanted their most recent hookup to turn into something more, but 58 percent of men say the same—not a vast difference.

Therefore…74% of women have demonstrably not opted out of relationships, and more than half of those hooking up want one.

3. After college, both women and men date with the express purpose of entering relationships. With a mean age of 28 at first marriage, it seems reasonable to assume that women are dating with the specific intent to marry by the age of 25 or 26, and probably date for an LTR before that.

Therefore…most women don’t opt out of relationships in their 20s.

4. Guys who are high on the asshole spectrum are generally short-term maters, they don’t seek LTRs, nor are they any good at maintaining them.

Therefore…it is highly unlikely that many college women are in relationships with assholes.

A direct study is not needed if we can piece together the facts sitting right in front of us.

Cooper

“Are you with me or INTJ here?”

Haha, no clue.

Though I thought the scientific theories were just an example of straw-man argument.
I’m wondering what it is that Sassy and Olive were referring to, when they say INTJ says Susan’s data is bogus.

What is the claim?

Escoffier

You win, Hope, that is indeed dumber.

Lokland

@Damien

“whether you’re talking about corruption in the business world or getting sex from gullible targets is not something you want to indefinetly pursue in life…”

Theres a huge difference between taking advantage of an opportunity offered and going about creating opportunities at the expense of others.

Hi want a $100. Sure

Is different than

Give me $100 or I’ma steal your kitten.

If someone opens themselves up to attack, it might be unethical to take a shot but meh…I’ll take it anyway.

@Mike C

“Very often in FWB situations you have a substantial SMV differential. ”

I disagree here.
I had two during undergrad that spanned 1 semester-ish.
SMVs were pretty equal.

But I was also offering intimacy because I needed that myself. They probably saw it as a boyfriend gesture no matter how vehemently I said otherwise.

Lokland

@Olive

I thought so,
You also have elf ears right?

Pardon, I promise I’m not creeping you, just have a good memory.

Also, Hope is correct. Genetic councillor few, not sure what that entails in the States but good luck.

INTJ

@ Cooper

Haha, no clue.

Though I thought the scientific theories were just an example of straw-man argument.
I’m wondering what it is that Sassy and Olive were referring to, when they say INTJ says Susan’s data is bogus.

What is the claim?

Well for one thing I disagree that the 80/20 claim has necessarily been debunked by survey data. Susan’s hypothesis, which is consistent with the data, is that unrestricteds are pairing up with unrestricteds while restricteds pair up with restricteds. I have an alternative hypothesis – that the 80/20 rule holds for both genders – with what little sexual experience the average male manages being with sluts, and whatever relationships the average female manages being with alpha asshats.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

I have an alternative hypothesis – that the 80/20 rule holds for both genders – with what little sexual experience the average male manages being with sluts, and whatever relationships the average female manages being with alpha asshats.

This is interesting, let’s explore this!

I recall that you have shared anecdotes that your STEM friends have had sex with sluts.

We know that around 15% or less of college students, both male and female, are promiscuous. Therefore, they can either:

1. Be having sex with each other, in keeping with their unrestricted orientation.

2. Be having sex with people of opposite orientation. That is, alpha asshats are avoiding sluts at events like frat parties, and seeking out average females in class, the cafeteria, gym, etc. Can you explain why the P&D’er would be willing to invest time and energy is seducing a restricted female when he socializes with unrestricted females?

At the same time, according to your hypothesis, sluts are avoiding alpha asshats and finding Comp Sci majors and the like for sex. Can you explain the role of female hypergamy here? What are the incentives for an unrestricted female to invest time and energy is seducing virgin males?

I’m also curious how you explain the existing relationships on college campuses. Are the boyfriends alpha asshats? If so, what makes them so? If they’re monogamous and emotionally intimate, what makes them asshats? And if they’re asshats or players, why would they consent to a LTR?

Lokland

@INTJ

“I’ve always avoided mating without emotional pair-bonding because I would not be interested in a woman who has mated without emotional pair-bonding.”

You haven’t avoided mating without emotional pair bonding.
Until you’ve started mating you can’t really be avoiding or searching for emotional pair bonding.

INTJ

@ Lokland

You haven’t avoided mating without emotional pair bonding.
Until you’ve started mating you can’t really be avoiding or searching for emotional pair bonding.

No quite the opposite. I’ve avoided emotional pair bonding (to avoid getting hurt), and because I’ve avoided emotional pair bonding, I’ve avoided mating.

OffTheCuff

Ted: “But, what if you HATE it? What if it makes you feel like total and utter shit?”

The only thing to fear is fear itself…

I think what really hurts is breaking an emotional plus sexual pair-bond, when you’re the one who’s dumped. If you never have that bond in the first place, it doesn’t hurt. If you dump the person, much less so. In a way, you can save yourself a lot of pain… if you’re sure you never get dumped. (I guess that’s why lots of people have a “until someone better comes along” philosophy – saves you from being dumped.)

Further, casual (non-monogamous) doesn’t always mean unemotional or poor sex. You might have an amazing hookup with a long-time crush while her boyfriend is away, and she rejects you later- this would likely hurt. You might have a one-night stand with an acquaintance, wake up the next day, and think “that was fun, but… nah”, and it wouldn’t.

Ted D

“Until you’ve started mating you can’t really be avoiding or searching for emotional pair bonding.”

How so? I can easily be “in love” with a woman I’m not having sex with. And at least biologically, I can have sex with a woman I don’t love.

Why is it that somehow most people thing the ONLY proof of pair bonding is sex?

JP

@Ted D

Um, Ted?

What is that winged avatar thingy with the pointy hat?

Prussian? Something else?

Ted D

OTC – “Further, casual (non-monogamous) doesn’t always mean unemotional or poor sex.”

I only view sex through the lens of an emotional bond. For me at least, casual and emotional don’t mix. Notice I never said anything about “poor” sex. I can easily see that sex with a raging slut might be VERY physically enjoyable. However, it won’t in any way “feel” good emotionally, and since that is my primary motivator in wanting sex, casual is a nonstarter for me.

“You might have an amazing hookup with a long-time crush while her boyfriend is away, and she rejects you later- this would likely hurt.”

No I wouldn’t, mostly because I:
Don’t “hook up”
Don’t have sex with people I’m not at least somewhat in love with

“You might have a one-night stand with an acquaintance, wake up the next day, and think “that was fun, but… nah”, and it wouldn’t.”

See the above comments.

You are missing the point, probably because I’m not being clear. TO ME: there is no sex without some emotional commitment. I’m not going to try it out to see how it fits, because I’ve already decided that EVEN IF it is the best sex of my life, it just isn’t worth it in the long run. It would mean giving up on the meaning sex has for me above physical pleasure, simply for? Physical pleasure. Thanks, but no thanks.

This is one of those “Disney fantasy” ideas I’m never giving up. I want sex to mean something to me other than busting a nut. And although I can see that having tried both one might be able to better appreciate meaningful sex more, I’ll risk never knowing how bad casual *can* be to keep my idealism about love and sex intact. It truly is a matter of principle and morality for me, so it will never get down to the actual mechanics of it.

Ted D

JP – “What is that winged avatar thingy with the pointy hat?

Prussian? Something else?”

LOL man! Its HUSsar (Polish) with my face on it. I’ve said here before that I’m a very Polish guy (heritage wise) and someone posted the Hussar as a kind of mascot for HUS. Since it is Polish, I stole it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Ted, your HUSsar avatar gives me great pleasure each day. I crack up every time I see it.

JP

@OTC:

“Ted: “But, what if you HATE it? What if it makes you feel like total and utter shit?”

“The only thing to fear is fear itself…”

Well, the guilt may overwhelm you to the point where you confess your crimes against humanity and consent to lifetime imprisonment for what you did, forcing you to present yourself prostrate before the Holy See begging absolution in the vain hope that your sins will be wiped clean.

That’s always a risk.

Lokland

On DTR.

I don’t see giving out the girlfriend label as a huge deal.
My wife brought it up in week 3-4 of our relationship.
I was fine with it, Facebook official and all that.

If she hadn’t been on my girlfriend ladder, yeah that would have been awkward.

Assuming the women is on the girlfriend ladder and the absolute ease one can enter and leave relationships, DTR should not be seen as a big deal.

Damien Vulaume

@Lokland: “Theres a huge difference between taking advantage of an opportunity offered and going about creating opportunities at the expense of others.”

Of course, that is a given. but it’s a long debate, you know? I don’t have the answers, do you?
It’s all about the intent and the way you do it, in any sphere, and the reason why or what for you’re doing it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

It’s all about the intent and the way you do it

This is my position. If you are hiding any information to avoid changing the outcome, or deceiving someone in any way, it is unethical. Personally, I don’t see any evidence that AWL’s FWB is doing that. If anything, the opposite is true, he seems to be wearing his heart on his sleeve.

Intent is important to morality, though not the only component of it. Our justice system recognizes this, as does religion.

OffTheCuff

Ted, I was addressing INTJ, though quoting you. I think you’ve been pretty clear on where you stand.

JP: “Well, the guilt may overwhelm you to the point where you confess your crimes against humanity and consent to lifetime imprisonment for what you did, forcing you to present yourself prostrate before the Holy See begging absolution in the vain hope that your sins will be wiped clean.”

Yeah, had that good ol’ Christian guilt for a week or two… and then realized I wasn’t going to be struck down by lightning. It goes away.

Ted D

OTC – “Yeah, had that good ol’ Christian guilt for a week or two… and then realized I wasn’t going to be struck down by lightning. It goes away.”

You say that like its a good thing.

Sometimes guilt and remorse are useful. Those feelings tend to keep people from doing stuff they shouldn’t after all.

JP

@OTC:

“Yeah, had that good ol’ Christian guilt for a week or two… and then realized I wasn’t going to be struck down by lightning. It goes away.”

It isn’t really a question of being struck by lightning.

It’s more of a question of the inner torment and guilt that haunt you all the days of your life, knowing that you will encounter final judgment and that you were the one who destroyed yourself.

To be haunted by the knowledge of the spiritual violence and destruction that you brought forth from your own hand.

Dying in sheer terror with the knowledge that if only you had sought absolution while there was still time…

OffTheCuff

What are you smoking, JP? Even the staunchest Christians allow for forgiveness if you repent, and heck, most don’t even give a crap about that second half in practice. I was Lutheran, not… Brimstonian or whatever you are suggesting.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Lokland,

I thought so,
You also have elf ears right?

Haha yeah kinda. They used to fold down, now they’re pointy-ish (surgery). I also had skin tags in front of my ears, but they were removed during surgery.

Ted,

If most relationships seem to start from hookups, then why not? Well, ask yourself: will you truly be good with yourself in 10 years when your N is 10? 20? 30?! Because if at the end of the line you find the love of your life but sold your soul to find her, did you really get what you wanted?

Consider this: my BF and I started in a hookup situation. N=1, for both of us. Unless you define N the same way as deti, which means mutual masturbation and anything beyond. In which case, my N=5, and his is…. still 1.

I would not advise hooking up as the only viable mating strategy, but as a guy, it doesn’t hurt to be open to it.

Ted D

Olive – “I would not advise hooking up as the only viable mating strategy, but as a guy, it doesn’t hurt to be open to it.”

Unless you have a moral or religious belief against it, and then you are sacrificing something you hold dear for a small shot at success.

I don’t know if INTJ is concerned about casual for his health, his soul, or his pocket book. *I* on the other hand have a strong moral/ethical stance on casual, and with it I personally believe that “being open to it” would indeed cost me something dear, and I determined a long time ago it just wasn’t worth it. I would rather go without sex than compromise my core beliefs to get laid.

Again, a matter of principle and ethics.

And this is why I hate our “casual” society so much. It makes people that believe in something better feel like outcasts because “most” people just don’t give a shit about morality or ethics. In a way, it’s a damn similar issue as ‘virgin shaming’ in that people are ridiculing others for holding ideals that are “more virtuous” than their own. My personal opinion is that such people know deep down that their morality is suspect, and they can’t stand that there are others that CAN judge them from the moral high ground, so they seek to pull them down to their own level.

I’m not leaving my high ground. It’s damn lonely, but I like the view.

JP

@OTC:

“What are you smoking, JP? Even the staunchest Christians allow for forgiveness if you repent, and heck, most don’t even give a crap about that second half in practice. I was Lutheran, not… Brimstonian or whatever you are suggesting.”

I grew up Lutheran. I’m not sure whether I’m technically still Lutheran or not.

Anyhow, I was just overguilting/overbrimstoning it for amusement purposes.

It was one of comments that riffed off of Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God, quintessential Americana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God

That’s good stuff. I picked that up in High School English, where it was required reading. Brimstonianism is pretty easy to riff if you use that one.

I was always confused as to the lack of the entire repentance thing growing up. ELCA Lutherans (my church) always seemed kind of squishy and not particularly concerned unless the pastor committed some sort of sexual-adulterous no-no.

The Missouri Synod, however, sounded tougher.

JP

@Olive:

“Consider this: my BF and I started in a hookup situation. N=1, for both of us. Unless you define N the same way as deti, which means mutual masturbation and anything beyond. In which case, my N=5, and his is…. still 1.”

I’m going to assume that you made the first move here.

Cooper

@INTJ

I’m in agreement with your assertion. But I know full well we don’t stand a chance of proving it, nor would we benefit from it – nevermind doing so here.

Ted D

Cooper – “But I know full well we don’t stand a chance of proving it, nor would we benefit from it – nevermind doing so here.”

Bah, you give up far too easily. Sometimes it isn’t about benefit. It’s simply about pure, stubborn, bullheadedness.

Besides, dogged determination is a rather alpha trait, is it not?

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

It’s interesting how closely my computer-shopping style corresponds to my relationship-shopping style.

I think is usually the case with everyone most unrestricted people I know are also impulsive shoppers/eaters/troublemakers…I really think is hard to find people whose sexuality is completely the opposite to the rest of their personality.

I’d like to be able to report something objectively without starting a gender war.

You are so cute when you are naive…:)

Why is it that somehow most people thing the ONLY proof of pair bonding is sex?

At the risk of sounding like PJ this is a very liberal American attitude around the world people consider totally possible and common falling in love without having had sex with the person in question.

Lokland

@INTJ

“No quite the opposite. I’ve avoided emotional pair bonding (to avoid getting hurt), and because I’ve avoided emotional pair bonding, I’ve avoided mating.”

That was my indirect way of saying go get laid/get a gf.
Then you can bitch about how bad an emotional pair bond leading to nowhere is.

Your theories are entirely theoretical, which is okay, but sometimes they deviate from reality in such a grand way its hard for anyone with the experience to understand your point.

Mike C

Bah, you give up far too easily. Sometimes it isn’t about benefit. It’s simply about pure, stubborn, bullheadedness.

Besides, dogged determination is a rather alpha trait, is it not?

Be careful Ted…you are in danger of getting lumped in with me as a pot stirrer.

Ted D

Mike C – “Be careful Ted…you are in danger of getting lumped in with me as a pot stirrer. ”

I do my best to play by the rules. But until it is clearly defined exactly what constitutes stirring the pot, I’ll be here making soup.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted

But until it is clearly defined exactly what constitutes stirring the pot, I’ll be here making soup.

For now, let’s just say you’d better not do what this turkey has in mind:

“Sometimes I purposely dig in and double down even though I know it wont actually solve anything. At that point, I’m not looking so much to find middle ground and instead am trying to point out just how flawed the whole discussion is. Will they understand? Probably not. But that doens’t mean I won’t keep trying. I’m stubborn and have time during my day to keep plugging away, so I do.

Those college women need to hear what my grumpy old ass has to say FAR MORE than they need advice on how to filter out cads IMO.

…and we are still forgetting that young men find their way to HUS often, as some of the participation from younger men there indicate. If HUS won’t show them the truth, they should know it’s out there somewhere.

I’d much rather just point out the obvious and let them feel offended. If nothing else that will hopefully get them to wonder how I can be so rude, and perhaps that train of thought might lead them to a conclusion that although I’m a rude asshat, there is a kernal of truth to be found from it.”

Yeah, please don’t be like this guy.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

I’m not leaving my high ground. It’s damn lonely, but I like the view.

Sadly as an extrovert being alone at the top is not fun. Thank goodness hubby is here with me although he will deny it if asked :p

Cooper

@Ted D
Well, shall I post my longer answer then?

To me, asking for research data that backs that early-20s women go for asshats, is like asking for data that proves fat chick will do more in the sack. Or that HB10s, and men with x-large pensises, tend not to put as much effort into their “performance.”

These assertions don’t require data, they’re based on what the situation necessitates. (How a lower-SMV individual interacts with a higher one.)

Original response as follows: (Blame Ted, if you must)

“Well the last incident involved me saying that prior to getting married in their late 20s, college women who don’t opt out of relationships tend to get relationships with guys who’re high on the asshole spectrum.”

We’re being asked for data on this? Huh.

Isn’t that kinda like asking for data on the assertion that fat chicks will try more in the sack? Or that HB10s, and guys with x-large penises put less effort into being “good.” Or that unattractive people have better character?

They’re all just assertions – ones that hold little ground or practical usuage, but nonetheless are commonly affirmed by anecdotal support.

I guess what the women here have a problem with you saying such things is it implies that there is something intrinsically wrong with female sexuality.
Is this the resistant to such a concept? Cause I feel like guys have grown up being told that their sexuality is inherently wrong, and that it’s our responsibility to keep it to ourselves. (The Ol’ “it’s great you have one, just don’t ever impose it upon anyone”)

Are we getting to the point where both sexes are able admit to having inherent “wrongs?”
Guys generally don’t have any qualms with throwing our sexuality under the bus, we actually go about cautioning against it. Your not going to find a guy that says guys don’t P&D, or that even most of us “aren’t pigs.”

Then why can’t the girls admit that some girls do date asshole, intentionally or not?

I’m not sure if INTJ is trying to argue that dating assholes is the primary strategy of college females, but I think it’s ridiculous to claim that it doesn’t happen. (Saying we shouldn’t discuss it here is also fine)

Guys who can get girls easily adopt, through the great confidence in their ability, the mentality that they can get any girl easily. With that mentality in hand, they tend to treat girls very differently, commonly viewed as less-respectful from a guy on the sidelines’ POV. This isn’t rocket-science.

High-SMV girls are used to all sorts of guys fumbling over themselves, and stammering, in trying to talk to them – I honestly can’t imagine what this is like. Nonetheless this endless supply of attention does make the man who doesn’t kneel at their feet to be a very desirable man. It signals to them that he must be higher-status than them.
Now throw in the fact that a ton of guys have already made her despise attempts-to-please, and she has either begun, or for sometime been, DQin guys for, what is to to her, demonstrating their lower – you have a girl that chases assholes.

I don’t think it’s very far fetched to suggest that there are many girls that let a mans’ indifferent towards them indicate high-status. This indifference, while may be present in high-SMV men, is much more accessible via disrespectful men.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Cooper

I don’t think it’s very far fetched to suggest that there are many girls that let a mans’ indifferent towards them indicate high-status. This indifference, while may be present in high-SMV men, is much more accessible via disrespectful men.

It’s not far fetched. Of course this is true. We know that “chicks dig jerks.” I’ve written many posts on it.

I’m not sure if INTJ is trying to argue that dating assholes is the primary strategy of college females, but I think it’s ridiculous to claim that it doesn’t happen. (Saying we shouldn’t discuss it here is also fine)

Yes, the problem is that INTJ is generalizing.

It is fine to discuss it here!

I guess what the women here have a problem with you saying such things is it implies that there is something intrinsically wrong with female sexuality.
Is this the resistant to such a concept? Cause I feel like guys have grown up being told that their sexuality is inherently wrong, and that it’s our responsibility to keep it to ourselves.

I say let’s not shame either male or female sexuality, nor call either of them flawed or wrong. My contention is that if you could mess with any aspect of either, with a genie granting you a wish, anything you changed would be disastrous for mating. Female hypergamy is essential. The male desire for variety is essential.

I’m OK, you’re OK.

Cooper

@Ted

There.

*ducks and covers*

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Unless you have a moral or religious belief against it, and then you are sacrificing something you hold dear for a small shot at success.

Tell that to my ex. Quite the religious guy (yes the fire and brimstone type) but had no qualms about hooking up.

I dunno about Cooper or INTJ, but some guys have this idea that hooking up will increase the chance of hurting a girl, and they absolutely don’t want to cause any girls pain (it’s not hard to see where they get that impression, see J’s commentary in the other thread). After discussing it with my brother, I suspect he is under this impression as well. It’s an honorable stance, no doubt, but it’s still not gonna get you very far in this SMP.

JP,

I’m going to assume that you made the first move here.

Yep.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@Sassy

Otherwise, things will remain tedious and annoying with him. I’m not surprised by or opposed to the flack he has been getting.

Thanks for having an open mind on the subject. I’ll admit to being very biased against him at this point, particularly for “constructive dialogue” like this:

My mother used to teach at a community college in California. Most girls there either practiced casual sex or got into broken relationships. Community colleges are just as bad as university, though they do manage to keep the partying more out of sight.

They may be dating more and hooking up less, but they still manage to end up having sex with assholes. That’s the only explanation for why so many of them are single mothers or have to deal with post-abortion depression. Sure, thanks to the smaller size and lack of dorm culture, you won’t see them having as many one night stands, but that doesn’t mean they don’t manage to rack up high numbers of broken relationships.

Perhaps Olive agrees? I’ll admit, this kind of ignorance really ticks me off. And he’s never retracted any of it.

JP

“Both college and post-college dating scenarios give young people the opportunity to develop relationship skills, including compromise, demonstration of love and affection, responsibility for the happiness of another, etc.”

This is an odd way (to me) to look at this process.

The point being to develop “relationship skills”.

For me, the entire process was pretty much “Am I into this person? Is this person into me?” You don’t generally think about things like compromise, demonstration of love and affection, responsibility for the happiness of another, etc.

Relationships aren’t something that you think of as requiring a skill set.

JP

Granted, I just recently accepted (a few years ago) that social skills are a skill set to be acquired and not something that just automatically happens.

It just seems so odd (to me) to treat interpersonal relationships as something that are related to skills. When you think of skills, you are generally thinking about physical things. Mowing the grass. Riding a bike. Changing oil, etc.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@INTJ

My original point was that there is too little data from which meaningful conclusions can be drawn for the relationship stuff we’re discussing here, and that we shouldn’t have an over-reliance on studies.

You’re still in denial. I don’t know how to explain it, other than extreme pride. I’m on no crusade, I’ve just never heard you even fess up to it.

I provided a list of 44 sources of information Susan’s cited over many months (took me quite awhile to compile), and asked you specifically which ones were biased, inaccurate, and unreliable. And you said, and I quote, “All of them”.

I think I also politely asked you ~3 times to specifically pick any ONE of them and explain how and why it’s “crap”. Never happened. You eventually admitted you hadn’t even read most of them. Maybe I’m the only person who finds that bizarre?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Megaman,
Did you/your wife go to community college or something? I gotta admit, I’m trying to feel as angry as you are at INTJ just from reading that post, and I feel nothing. He’s just… writing stuff, that may or may not be true, based on his limited observations. Last time I checked, that wasn’t a crime here at HUS.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Olive

I gotta admit, I’m trying to feel as angry as you are at INTJ just from reading that post, and I feel nothing. He’s just… writing stuff, that may or may not be true, based on his limited observations.

Unless INTJ has attended community college, he has no relevant observations. Even if he had, his statement was a gross and very negative generalization of female students there. My oldest friend runs a department at Diablo Valley CC and her students are earnest, hard-working, and trying very hard to pull themselves up in the world. They have zero time for shenanigans or assholes.

Edited for snark

Just1Z

@Hope
“Just1Z, the Chinese don’t really start wars on foreign countries”

just a figure of speech, an unfortunate one. Take it as “don’t feel upset when the money loaned is inflated to nothing”

JP

@Just1Z:

“just a figure of speech, an unfortunate one. Take it as “don’t feel upset when the money loaned is inflated to nothing”””

It has nothing to do with that.

China’s a Great Power involved in normal Great Power gameplaying.

This often involves war and has little, if nothing, really, to do with the U.S. Debt held by China.

Damien Vulaume

@Susan:
“Both college and post-college dating scenarios give young people the opportunity to develop relationship skills, including compromise, demonstration of love and affection, responsibility for the happiness of another, etc.”

…And they all lived together ever after. Everybody smiles and kiss each other in a truthful and unbroken environement.. If only.
Looks like both girls and boys here are dealing with more than a kiss on the cheeck environement. I’m not a cynical person, but…DTR, ONS, FWB, FWB with no benefits in the end, non FWB, Yes on the first night, no before, after, before……Oh la la, let’s sit down for a while.
There was a very interesting comment sent by a foreign girl at one of your post:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/?s=poupaud
(comment #34-Glasses)

That’s from a foreign girl’s persperctive, but it perfectly mirrors my own experience as a foreign guy in an american college.
Give it a read, it’s a much more articulate way of discribing it than I could, and it’s very sincere.

http://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@Olive

Last time I checked, that wasn’t a crime here at HUS.

I did attend CC, and will admit to getting worked up over certain topics. I don’t think that’s any different than other guys around here. It’s true that neither one of us needed to continue arguing over it. Cooler heads didn’t prevail.

But I’m not the law! Just an ordinary citizen voicing his opinion, same as him. I guess the only difference is, mine’s capable of changing…

Just1Z

@Susan
“The point is, I have seen zero articles trumping up this research in the way you suggest”

I’m not trumping anything, I’ll leave it to my betters to vouch for the numbers, buy I would be surprised if there was no link at all.

I am saying people need to be careful when reading such work. You say 2%, which means you read the important part and grasped it. Many don’t; they just grab the ‘men can’t have kids late because genetics’ and run with that. And I have seen it, and I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen it on HUS (in comments, not in the posts). Given the 100,000+ comments that I’d have to scan, I’m going to leave it as anecdote

INTJ

@ Susan

Really? My brother had to get a doctorate to call himself that. Do you mean that you are a physics major?

Hah no I meant I’m majoring in applied physics. Incidently, one can actually learn a decent bit of applied physics in undergraduate school, unlike theoretical physics, which is basically all graduate level.

Also, I’ve done some graduate level physics coursework. But that was also applied.

OffTheCuff

Olive: “But some guys have this idea that hooking up will increase the chance of hurting a girl, and they absolutely don’t want to cause any girls pain (it’s not hard to see where they get that impression, see J’s commentary in the other thread). After discussing it with my brother, I suspect he is under this impression as well. It’s an honorable stance, no doubt, but it’s still not gonna get you very far in this SMP.”

It’s a very childish understanding of women, based on too much kindness and not enough experience.

Feminists would probably tell us that it’s meant to box women into virgin/whore dichotomies, rooted in objectifying their bodies as their only value in a cisgendered heteronormative patriarchy intent on subjugating women because sex is only about power, which is thus proof of misogynistic MY BRAIN HURTS TRYING TO BE THIS PARANOID ALLWORKANDNOPLAYMAKESAMANDAADULLGIRLADULLGIRL

Just1Z

@Susan
“IDK why people see the feminism bogeyman here. Sometimes there really is no hidden agenda, and I certainly don’t have one. I’d like to be able to report something objectively without starting a gender war.”

The thought that you had a hidden agenda hadn’t even considered crossing my mind.

I want people to at least try and understand data, methods, agenda and the wormy wording of any reports. e.g. ‘supports’ does not mean ‘proves’

INTJ

@ Susan

This is interesting, let’s explore this!

I recall that you have shared anecdotes that your STEM friends have had sex with sluts.

We know that around 15% or less of college students, both male and female, are promiscuous. Therefore, they can either:

1. Be having sex with each other, in keeping with their unrestricted orientation.

2. Be having sex with people of opposite orientation. That is, alpha asshats are avoiding sluts at events like frat parties, and seeking out average females in class, the cafeteria, gym, etc. Can you explain why the P&D’er would be willing to invest time and energy is seducing a restricted female when he socializes with unrestricted females?

At the same time, according to your hypothesis, sluts are avoiding alpha asshats and finding Comp Sci majors and the like for sex. Can you explain the role of female hypergamy here? What are the incentives for an unrestricted female to invest time and energy is seducing virgin males?

I’m also curious how you explain the existing relationships on college campuses. Are the boyfriends alpha asshats? If so, what makes them so? If they’re monogamous and emotionally intimate, what makes them asshats? And if they’re asshats or players, why would they consent to a LTR?

I guess the problem is highlighted in the last paragraph. An alpha asshat is perfectly capable of being monogamous – at least for a while. Few of them are going to be P&Ders. When I think alpha asshat, I’m thinking of someone who displays passive-aggressive behavior or has ASPD. Someone who is dismissive of others’ emotions, and tends to be aggressive. These are the people that are generally labelled as “jerks”, “bitches”, or “assholes”.

As for sluts getting with non alpha-asshats, it’s probably just a matter of having sex with everything that moves – and the majority of guys are not alpha-asshats.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

When I think alpha asshat, I’m thinking of someone who displays passive-aggressive behavior or has ASPD.

Ah, that’s the problem. Here is the quintessential alpha asshat:

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

Re: FWBs. I think that this format may actually present a healthy compromise between conflicting male and female mating agendas, the relatively low clearing price for sex (that feminists wanted—too late for them to complain now), and the highly-conditional nature of the current LTR environment.

I personally would not want some kind of Taliban-enforced SMP in which I have to essentially be willing to go all-in and commit for life in order to obtain sex. Consider the information threshold necessary to make a Type 1 “she’s hot—would like to have sex with her” amusement park ride decision vs. a Type 2 “she’s a total badass in every respect—would like to trust her with my life, money, children, unwavering support from my family, etc.” decision. The screening process for the Type 2 needs to be the relationship equivalent of BUD/S or SAS Selection; you want someone you’d be proud to (figuratively) go to war with.

I think that a lot of HUS guys really are genuinely moralistic, but let’s also be aware that some % of men would like to keep the costs of sex relatively high not for particular ethical reasons, but because doing so would supposedly neutralize a lot of the currently-successful, gluttonous players and make it difficult for these guys to “afford” oligopolistic soft harems and their toxic by-products: damaged women who leave the harems and opium dens forever tainted with the scarlet letters “SMPD” (“Sexual Marketplace Price Discriminator”) on their breasts, buttocks, and hipbones.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@BB

I personally would not want some kind of Taliban-enforced SMP in which I have to essentially be willing to go all-in and commit for life in order to obtain sex.

I’m with you there 100%.

some % of men would like to keep the costs of sex relatively high not for particular ethical reasons, but because doing so would supposedly neutralize a lot of the currently-successful, gluttonous players

Yes, there are many clusters of sour grapes in the sphere.

Just1Z

@JP
“This often involves war and has little, if nothing, really, to do with the U.S. Debt held by China.”

where did I say that?

I was talking about a hypothetical future not current or past actions (at least not those made public). Do you really think that the Chinese are happy about the US QE? specifically its ability to trigger inflation.

INTJ

@ Bastiat Blogger

I think that a lot of HUS guys really are genuinely moralistic, but let’s also be aware that some % of men would like to keep the costs of sex relatively high not for particular ethical reasons, but because doing so would supposedly neutralize a lot of the currently-successful, gluttonous players and make it difficult for these guys to “afford” oligopolistic soft harems and their toxic by-products: damaged women who leave the harems and opium dens forever tainted with the scarlet letters “SMPD” (“Sexual Marketplace Price Discriminator”) on their breasts, buttocks, and hipbones.

Those are the types of reasons for which morals tend to be invented…

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

In other words, if I have $6 in my pocket right now, my friend Bob has $100 right now, and the current spot price for sex is $10, I could conceivably argue that the price is TOO LOW and that $90 is more appropriate. I still get nothing, but at least Bob is limited to N=1 rather than N=10, and this may help me in the future when I have my $100 (I’m a late bloomer, after all) and want a relationship with a girl who did not have sex with Bob when the price of sex was cheap. I definitely don’t want to pay $90 or more for a sexual experience that Bob paid only $10 for.

This is perhaps a counter-intuitive result and for simplicity’s sake I’m making it all sound very transactional, but I think it captures an important element of SMP strategy in some cases.

JP

“I personally would not want some kind of Taliban-enforced SMP in which I have to essentially be willing to go all-in and commit for life in order to obtain sex.”

I just assumed that this was one of the unbreakable rules of life – meaning that you get less than 100% if you don’t follow the rule, so to speak.

But, like I said, I’m a straight A perfectionist.

And I did avoid STD’s and fathering random children.

INTJ

@ Bastiat Blogger

In other words, if I have $6 in my pocket right now, my friend Bob has $100 right now, and the current spot price for sex is $10, I could conceivably argue that the price is TOO LOW and that $90 is more appropriate. I still get nothing, but at least Bob is limited to N=1 rather than N=10, and this may help me in the future when I have my $100 (I’m a late bloomer, after all) and want a relationship with a girl who did not have sex with Bob when the price of sex was cheap. I definitely don’t want to pay $90 or more for a sexual experience that Bob paid only $10 for.

This is perhaps a counter-intuitive result and for simplicity’s sake I’m making it all sound very transactional, but I think it captures an important element of SMP strategy in some cases.

Yup. That’s the goal of morality.

JP

“In other words, if I have $6 in my pocket right now, my friend Bob has $100 right now, and the current spot price for sex is $10, I could conceivably argue that the price is TOO LOW and that $90 is more appropriate. I still get nothing, but at least Bob is limited to N=1 rather than N=10, and this may help me in the future when I have my $100 (I’m a late bloomer, after all) and want a relationship with a girl who did not have sex with Bob when the price of sex was cheap. I definitely don’t want to pay $90 or more for a sexual experience that Bob paid only $10 for.

This is perhaps a counter-intuitive result and for simplicity’s sake I’m making it all sound very transactional, but I think it captures an important element of SMP strategy in some cases.”

And my point is that this isn’t really a marketplace because *people aren’t commodities*.

The SMP is not a “marketplace” that needs to be “regulated” in, say, the way a commodity market or a securities market needs to be regulated.

Sex isn’t really a product or service.

Yes, there is prostitution, however, that’s debased commodified sexuality, not what we are aiming for here.

Although I’m not surprised that American Consumer Capitalism has created this SMP fiasco.

Passer_By

@susan
“About 66 percent of women say they wanted their most recent hookup to turn into something more, but 58 percent of men say the same—not a vast difference.”

Taken on it’s face, you would think from that stat that a much larger percentage of hookups would lead to relationships, unless by “more” the guys often meant they were hoping it would turn into a fuck buddy arrangement.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Taken on it’s face, you would think from that stat that a much larger percentage of hookups would lead to relationships, unless by “more” the guys often meant they were hoping it would turn into a fuck buddy arrangement.

I suspect that the sexes are often at cross purposes. Both parties compete to be the Person of Least Interest. All it takes is one instance where one party avoids the other, and the two may never speak again. The fact that both parties deny any interest in a relationship or each other doesn’t help, as their friends figure they got what they wanted.

If I had the power to read minds, I bet I could go to any campus and get a lot of people booed up.

J

Didn’t Lori Gottlieb advise young women to seek out Mr. Pretty Good for marriage instead of staying single and vainly waiting for Mr. Perfect?

Yes.

I recall she was reamed for it, mostly by other women!

She caught from two directions–Jezebel and the ‘sphere. The Atlantic promoted her book.

A Definite Beta Guy

@ Susan

Can you explain the role of female hypergamy here? What are the incentives for an unrestricted female to invest time and energy is seducing virgin males?

I would say the role of female hypergamy is that most college males are clueless and do not always have a single conscious attitude they are projecting. So, Delta Guys are whipped into submission most of the time, but occasionally they DO cross the dominance thresh-hold to become attractive.

They may be restricted, indeed, but the unrestricted woman, who is now attracted, is quite familiar with the hook-up script and is comfortable with showing interest, which most men probably will respond to.

And restricted guys can fall in love as a result of sexual activity.

To me, it seems MORE likely that restricted guys are going to end up with unrestricted girls for their Low-Ns.

Just a shot in the dark here.

Further, if restricted people are hooking up with other restricted people, wouldn’t they hook up in a restricted way?

Instead, you are saying we have this pool of restricted people on one side, and unrestricted people on the other side, and they don’t really intermingle, except restricted people are using the unrestricted script.

To me, it seems more likely that the unrestricted script has been OBLITERATED. That’s why most relationships start out as hook-ups. The only script is the unrestricted script.

Unrestricted people will still see restricted people as attractive, on occasion, and are familiar with this script, and comfortable with it, so they would be able to impose this script on restricted people and seduce them.

I am not saying this IS the case, but it seems to be possible.

Obviously, my current SO is a lil’ on the unrestricted side. Probably 67% percentile. I remember at least one hook-up being a girl who then ended up plowing the entire basketball team. I also remember my 17 year old high school girl being a girl who liked blowing me in the movie theater, and was really, really disappointed she couldn’t give me one at Turnabout…about 6 days after we started dating.

My friend as a N of 2, and I know one was a ONS from a Hooters-type girl. He also had a non-PIV hookup with a single mother at a club. He’s pretty restricted, though, and regularly goes to church.

I don’t know if this is true, or not, but that’s a possible mechanism and my experience, FWIW.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@ADBG

I would say the role of female hypergamy is that most college males are clueless and do not always have a single conscious attitude they are projecting. So, Delta Guys are whipped into submission most of the time, but occasionally they DO cross the dominance thresh-hold to become attractive.

They may be restricted, indeed, but the unrestricted woman, who is now attracted, is quite familiar with the hook-up script and is comfortable with showing interest, which most men probably will respond to.

That makes sense. Add in the fact that plenty of deltas are going to be physically attractive, and he’s crossed the threshold. I do wonder, though, how often these social lines get crossed. In my experience, the unrestricted scenes, e.g., Greeks, sports, are pretty insular. Or are you saying that a girl in a class finds the guy in study group hot, so she jumps his bones some afternoon? Very possible.

Unrestricted people will still see restricted people as attractive, on occasion, and are familiar with this script, and comfortable with it, so they would be able to impose this script on restricted people and seduce them.

Yes, now I’m picturing Karen Owen as a black widow spider. And for the guy who’s “lucky” to be on the receiving end of this, most would probably go ahead and ask questions later.

Anyway, I appreciate the insight. Your anecdotes do serve to support INTJ’s hypothesis.

Passer_By

Perhaps INTJ is a tad too “J” and needs to add some “P”.

Passer_By

@susan
“Can you explain why the P&D’er would be willing to invest time and energy is seducing a restricted female when he socializes with unrestricted females?”

Even assuming the premise is true (that the sorority girls are sluts), is this a serious question? Fresh poon, man!

“Can you explain the role of female hypergamy here? What are the incentives for an unrestricted female to invest time and energy is seducing virgin males?”

You could argue that “sluts” are simply on the left side of the bell curve for hypergamy and, perhaps (for the same reason) on the right side of the curve for variety seeking. Thus many more men would meet their standards. Also, it’s not so much that they would be seducing them, just that wouldn’t find them repulsive, and maybe endearing enough to fuck.

Of course, I fully admit that I am talking out of my ass, errr, off the top of my head here (funny how those two things mean kinda the same thing).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Passer By

Even assuming the premise is true (that the sorority girls are sluts), is this a serious question? Fresh poon, man!

Of course! This is actually a key part of the plot in Charlotte Simmons, and it’s also the classic Cad Seduces Freshman routine.

You could argue that “sluts” are simply on the left side of the bell curve for hypergamy and, perhaps (for the same reason) on the right side of the curve for variety seeking. Thus many more men would meet their standards. Also, it’s not so much that they would be seducing them, just that wouldn’t find them repulsive, and maybe endearing enough to fuck.

This also sounds plausible. The most promiscuous woman in my focus groups told me that she doesn’t ask herself whether she should fuck a guy, she says she’ll do it unless there’s a good reason why not. (I know, facepalm. It’s hopeless.) I know several of her short-term flings, and they are no way no how alpha types. In fact, she goes for slightly built nerdy guys a lot of the time. One thing she likes is that these guys are nice to her – whereas the jerks treat her very badly, i.e. slut pile. I can see how non-alpha guys wind up getting into relationships with promiscuous girls sometimes.

Ted D

Susan – regarding the HUSsar. I like it so much it may become my twitter icon too!

“Yeah, please don’t be like this guy.”

I feel honored that I’ve joined the company of men quoted from other blogs here at HUS!

I’ve kept my word and not “brought” that over here, but I’ll stand by every word of mine you quoted from AG. And I’d like to highlight one section in particular:

“and we are still forgetting that young men find their way to HUS often, as some of the participation from younger men there indicate. If HUS won’t show them the truth, they should know it’s out there somewhere.”

If we are going to start bringing in outside conversations, I’d like to add that I’ve had private conversations with several regular male contributors past and present at HUS, and many of them have advised me to just give up. My reply to every one of them was the statement I quoted above. The Coopers, HanSolos, and INTJs of HUS are much of what keeps me coming back. If this is the only place they get info on women, they’ll be sadly misinformed. Not because you or any of the regular ladies here lie, but because everything you all post is heavily dosed with female imperative, or femcenterism. (Whatever we want to call it…). I don’t believe for one moment you or anyone intends to lead them astray, but the results would be the same if it was intentional. I’m here constantly bumping back on things partly because I firmly and fully believe the men finding their way here should know that there ARE other points of view, and there ARE other men that feel exactly like they do.

If it means anything, the conversation you quoted me from above actually helped me to see HUS from a different perspective, and I’ve made an effort to tone down my “approach” largely based on the input from Vox and his regulars. (Including much constructive feedback from Olive!) However, I also found that the opinions I expressed are not nearly unique, and it gave me a better understanding as to why much of the ‘sphere sees you and HUS as the enemy. I disagree for the record that you are the enemy, but I completely understand why many hold that view, and I was surprised to find that it isn’t all based on hate and bitterness. Some of it is completely logical.

Finally, I can’t help but find it amusing that you often complain when we bring things from other blogs here, but you seem to have no issue bringing those conversations here yourself. Since its your living room you are certainly within your right, but it does look awfully hypocritical. As far as it goes I don’t hide anything I post anywhere, and you’ve said before you have google searches running for HUS so I assume you’ve seen anything I’ve posted related to HUS. I don’t think my criticism in that post is anything I haven’t said here before, although in a kinder, gentler fashion. And I believe all of it is fair.

P.S. – what you saw over at AG is much closer to how I actually communicate in real life. I’ve always said I tone things down for HUS…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

If we are going to start bringing in outside conversations, I’d like to add that I’ve had private conversations with several regular male contributors past and present at HUS, and many of them have advised me to just give up.

If only they would take their own advice! Any way you can help that along?

The Coopers, HanSolos, and INTJs of HUS are much of what keeps me coming back. If this is the only place they get info on women, they’ll be sadly misinformed.

This. This is PURE BULLSHIT. You have no right to come here and use my blog as a platform to dilute my message. I am not holding anyone hostage here. None of these young men is here for any reason other than that they like it. If you want to counter my message, start your own damn blog, don’t be a freeloader here. The least you could have done is offer to share the cost of my server.

Not because you or any of the regular ladies here lie, but because everything you all post is heavily dosed with female imperative, or femcenterism.

So you drank the radioactive Kool Aid. Well done, Ted! Go fall into the open arms of male bloggers who can high five you right into a miserable relationship.

I’m here constantly bumping back on things partly because I firmly and fully believe the men finding their way here should know that there ARE other points of view, and there ARE other men that feel exactly like they do.

That is not your decision or your choice. You comment here because I allow it, not because you are some sort of double spy Red Pill missionary. You think I don’t know which males comment here with the direct aim of discrediting me to commenters and lurkers?

I’ve made an effort to tone down my “approach” largely based on the input from Vox and his regulars.

It’s not your approach that’s a problem it’s your motives.

I disagree for the record that you are the enemy, but I completely understand why many hold that view, and I was surprised to find that it isn’t all based on hate and bitterness. Some of it is completely logical.

I hear that membership in the I Hate Aunt Giggles club is free, and the biddies gather regularly offline to gossip and whine. Sounds like you’ve already attended some meetings!

Finally, I can’t help but find it amusing that you often complain when we bring things from other blogs here, but you seem to have no issue bringing those conversations here yourself. Since its your living room you are certainly within your right, but it does look awfully hypocritical

Way to completely miss the point. I object to people treating HUS as enemy territory, making incursions here with POVs opposed to my own, initiating gender conflicts and force feeding everyone the Red Pill based on your own past disappointments. My quoting you doing this exact thing is anything but hypocritical.

As far as it goes I don’t hide anything I post anywhere, and you’ve said before you have google searches running for HUS so I assume you’ve seen anything I’ve posted related to HUS.

I’d be unlikely to miss a Vox post that was specifically about HUS and linked to me. I read the thread the day it came out, I just chose today to mention it to you.

Here’s the deal:

You either believe in and support my mission here or GTFO. You harm my blog and my community by coming here and preaching your crap theories about feminimfemcentrismismfem. Ism.

I’ve had about enough of disgruntled middle aged men telling women and men what they “need to hear.” If you can’t see how completely inappropriate your behavior is, please do not reply to this comment.

Ted D

Oh and Cooper: great post!

Passer_By

@beta guy
“Further, if restricted people are hooking up with other restricted people, wouldn’t they hook up in a restricted way?”

LOL. I’m picturing women covered with bed sheets with just a hole and both parties wearing dental dams and condoms.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

LOL. I’m picturing women covered with bed sheets with just a hole and both parties wearing dental dams and condoms.

HAHA!

Ted D

Passer_by – “Perhaps INTJ is a tad too “J” and needs to add some “P”. ”

As someone who scored over 90 on the J, NEVER! :-p

Susan – I forgot to add, I am EXACTLY like that guy just about everywhere but here. I behave myself here most of the time mostly out of respect for you and the regulars here. I’ve always said I am naturally an asshole, but you didn’t believe me.

Sassy6519

@ Ted D

The Coopers, HanSolos, and INTJs of HUS are much of what keeps me coming back. If this is the only place they get info on women, they’ll be sadly misinformed. Not because you or any of the regular ladies here lie, but because everything you all post is heavily dosed with female imperative, or femcenterism. (Whatever we want to call it…). I don’t believe for one moment you or anyone intends to lead them astray, but the results would be the same if it was intentional.

Hmmm.

I’ve found that the men here tend to react to what I tell them in 2 very distinct ways.

1. They tell me that they appreciate my honesty and wish more women were as “logical” as I am.

2. They become very offended/dejected over the “not so nice” ways that women can interact with and respond to men.

I’m either called a logical and honest woman, or a hypergamous and vain bitch. I don’t think women can win either way, to be honest. Anything we say is often viewed as suspect, regardless of whether or not it merits such accusations.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’m either called a logical and honest woman, or a hypergamous and vain bitch. I don’t think women can win either way, to be honest. Anything we say is often viewed as suspect, regardless of whether or not it merits such accusations.

I suspect those responses would break down into two distinct camps of males. I’d like to lose the latter group.

Passer_By

@sassy
“I’m either called a logical and honest woman, or a hypergamous and vain bitch. ”

Maybe you are logical and honest about your hypergamy and vain bitchiness?

A Definite Beta Guy

@ Susan

I’m OK, you’re OK.

I’m sorry, but I can’t quite get on board with this. Not 100% as worded. I get what you are saying, and I agree with you, we can’t just say “hypergamy go away!” but it goes deeper than that.

Humans can be okay.

They can also justify enslaving half their own population and implementing mass genocide.

These are things we are able to if given proper incentive, so we need to be given the incentive and socialization to NOT be massive dicks, and to do GOOD things instead.

I think female hypergamy is extremely useful and a great motivator to men to Get Shit Done. I also suspect it can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed, much like the male appetite for sexual variety can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed.

I actually don’t quite know why I am arguing this, I know you shame cads all the time. But there ain’t no way forward without some bit of shame, it keeps decent people in line.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@ADBG

I think female hypergamy is extremely useful and a great motivator to men to Get Shit Done. I also suspect it can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed, much like the male appetite for sexual variety can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed.

I actually don’t quite know why I am arguing this, I know you shame cads all the time. But there ain’t no way forward without some bit of shame, it keeps decent people in line.

I agree with you, and that is Escoffier’s main point – we need to manage our base instincts. But we also need to realize is the one of the most important elements of reproduction is sexual tension. The mating dance is one of give and take, but also of tension and some friction. Both literally and figuratively.

Ted D

Sassy – “I’m either called a logical and honest woman, or a hypergamous and vain bitch. I don’t think women can win either way, to be honest. Anything we say is often viewed as suspect, regardless of whether or not it merits such accusations”

Same exact sentiment of many men in the ‘sphere when it comes to women: damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If I’m screwed either way, I’m gonna at least go down kicking and screaming.

FWIW I place you in the honest and logical side, but completely understand why many men think you are a bitch. Because you are, and you own it. I’m an asshole, and I’ve known it all my life. Nice to meet you!

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Susan,

My oldest friend runs a department at Diablo Valley CC and her students are earnest, hard-working, and trying very hard to pull themselves up in the world. They have zero time for shenanigans or assholes.

And INTJ’s mom used to teach at a CC. So your anecdotal evidence trumps his? Interesting.

Nah, the reason I wasn’t overly bothered by his statement was that it’s the exact same manosphere meme, applied to Community College, about women only going for assholes, look at all those single mothers, whatever. I’ve seen it 100 times over, and it’s just not worth getting worked up over. I guess that’s the issue I have with the numerous posts aimed at INTJ: he’s not saying anything that hasn’t been said here before, so why all the anger towards him, specifically?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Olive

And INTJ’s mom used to teach at a CC. So your anecdotal evidence trumps his? Interesting.

Yes it does, because a mother reporting to her 21 year old son is very unlikely to have really shared (or even know) what those young women in her CC are up to. My friend, OTOH, is close with every one of the 40 students in each class, and I have hung out there and watched her teach.

There are lots of hot girls at DVCC, but the scene is nothing like the hookup culture at a 4 year college.

I guess that’s the issue I have with the numerous posts aimed at INTJ: he’s not saying anything that hasn’t been said here before, so why all the anger towards him, specifically?

Well, I think you correctly assessed that he pushed Megaman’s buttons. Also, I can say that Megaman really, really does his homework. He has sent me countless links over the last year or two, he is a constant source of relevant and interesting information. He has a viewpoint, but he does not cherry pick data. He is in earnest pursuit of the truth, and I appreciate that. That is what motivates me as well. By comparison, someone who pontificates and blows hot air without any legwork whatsoever is an annoyance.

As I’ve said, I enjoy INTJ a lot – I think he’s a great guy with good values. I know he will make a fantastic husband and father. That doesn’t mean he gets a free pass when he shoots from the hip…

Damien Vulaume

@Ted D: “Because you are, and you own it. I’m an asshole, and I’ve known it all my life. Nice to meet you!”

Wine maybe, or are you sober?

Passer_By

@damien
“Wine maybe, or are you sober?”

Hey, I’m the habitual drunken poster around here. Not Ted.

Sassy6519

@ Passer_By

Maybe you are logical and honest about your hypergamy and vain bitchiness?

Crap, I’ve been outed!

@ Ted D

FWIW I place you in the honest and logical side, but completely understand why many men think you are a bitch. Because you are, and you own it. I’m an asshole, and I’ve known it all my life. Nice to meet you!

http://heidiisern.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/queen-bitch.jpg

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Susan,

I do wonder, though, how often these social lines get crossed. In my experience, the unrestricted scenes, e.g., Greeks, sports, are pretty insular.

Maybe at larger universities, but I went to a small liberal arts college and all of those groups crossed over with “restricted” scenes. Consider that, by the time I graduated, probably half my friends were Greek. Also consider that frat parties were a big part of the social scene at my school and were attended by many non-Greek students (especially women). Sports teams were all wrapped up in the Greek scene (ATO and SAE were the football frats, ADPi was the rugby sorority, etc.).

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Olive

Maybe at larger universities, but I went to a small liberal arts college and all of those groups crossed over with “restricted” scenes. Consider that, by the time I graduated, probably half my friends were Greek. Also consider that frat parties were a big part of the social scene at my school and were attended by many non-Greek students (especially women). Sports teams were all wrapped up in the Greek scene (ATO and SAE were the football frats, ADPi was the rugby sorority, etc.).

Fair enough. I have to say, that’s my weakest link – small liberal arts schools. I know of the scene at a few, but I’m much more familiar with large universities and colleges of around 5K students.

I can imagine that the smaller the school, the more overlap.

Ted D

DV – lol. No wine, stone cold sober. I’m Mich friendlier when I drink.

I hadn’t had any wine yesterday either. Truthfully I don’t drink Mich, and rarely more than a glass of wine after dinner during the week.

I wasn’t razzing Sassy at all. Generally most men view any honest and blunt woman as a bitch, because most woman aren’t honest AND blunt. I don’t see it as a dig at all, nor do I see asshole as an insult when its directed my way. Its who I am, and I own it. The good side of that is: knowing I’m an asshole allows me to “turn it off” when necessary, like when I’m posting here for instance.

JP

@ADGB:

“These are things we are able to if given proper incentive, so we need to be given the incentive and socialization to NOT be massive dicks, and to do GOOD things instead.”

The fact that I’m permanently stuck with me and that I can’t really escape the consequences my actions generally provides a solid motivator.

The only thing that ever makes any ultimate sense is the good thing because, at the end of the day, it’s the only thing that really works.

It’s more of a recognition of this underlying reality more than anything else.

Ted D

Mich = much

Stupid autocorrect…

Damien Vulaume

@Ted D:
Based on your previous posts, I think you’re a genuine dude, but I guess already drunk by now, otherwise you could never say this seriously: “Generally most men view any honest and blunt woman as a bitch”.
Man, frustration is coming over the surface is.

Passer_By

@susan

“The most promiscuous woman in my focus groups told me that she doesn’t ask herself whether she should fuck a guy, she says she’ll do it unless there’s a good reason why not. (I know, facepalm. It’s hopeless.) I know several of her short-term flings, and they are no way no how alpha types. In fact, she goes for slightly built nerdy guys a lot of the time. One thing she likes is that these guys are nice to her – whereas the jerks treat her very badly, i.e. slut pile.”

That’s kinda sweet, in a way. As Beavis (I think) once said, “The world needs more sluts.”

Mike C

LOL….Ted….when I first read that excerpt Susan quoted…my money was on Deti….I didn’t realize she was responding to you with your own material…hahaha. If you keep this up, you are going to lose your invite for the HUS cocktail party

One thing I will say to you Ted is DO NOT feel any responsibility to the males who comment here. I once felt this way too. I think I’ve always felt a responsibility to give back and pass the knowledge along to other guys because of the 1-2 guys who took an interest in helping me. Honestly though, if any guy doesn’t realize there are other sources of information on gender dynamics out there, especially more oriented to their interests as men, and relies *exclusively* on information provided by women, then they really deserve any negative outcomes or lack of success they experience. It isn’t your job or my job to point a guy in a different direction who decides this is his only place to discuss and understand the SMP.

This particular site over time has had some brilliant minds commenting here…some who I won’t mention….others like Dogsquat (I hope he is doing great, I think he is totally cool) and guys like Escoffier and Bastiat who I have learned things from. I’m always interested to see what those two guys might say next. I’ve arrived at a point where there are certain commenters I enjoy reading and wanting to discuss with, and the rest I try to tune out as best as I can. You might consider that

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

deti is the diplomat, he makes the rest of my opponents look like clowns.

His comments from the Alpha Game post:

VD:

“Of course, it doesn’t help that the men most inclined to actively participate [at HUS] tend to be the men from whom the women there least need to hear…the fact that most of the men there are more or less inept with regards to women tends to compound that problem.”

deti:

As one of the men who has actively participated there, guilty as charged on both counts. But that simply magnifies the conundrum.

The men who patiently explain “the male POV” are middle aged, married or about to be married men with varying degrees of either (1) marital dysfunction in their histories; or (2) a POV influenced in no small part by their ages and past sexual marketplace failures or disappointments. They are the most vociferous in their views and the most willing to hear the women out. But, they spend most of their time challenging Susan and the studies she summarizes, many of which directly contradict the stated experiences of those men and others they’ve heard about.

…The women who review and post at HUS could do worse than to emulate Susan Walsh herself. She certainly doesn’t get it all right, and I have my disagreements with her. I think she has some blind spots.

Be that as it may, she is (usually) reasonable and willing to defend her views. She doesn’t shy away from challenges, and doesn’t hesitate to challenge anyone, men or women, on what she believes to be erroneous or factually bereft claims. She (usually) argues from fact and reason, and only sometimes lets emotion get the better of her. When she does get caught up in emotion, most of the time she at least acknowledges it. She is at least willing to examine beliefs and will consider modifying them as she did with our putting solipsism under the microscope a while ago.

Would that more women could do this, or were at least willing to try to do this.

…HUS is to show women where the Game rabbit hole is and maybe go in a few feet. If you want to see how far the rabbit hole goes, take it elsewhere. HUS is Game lite, the Purple Pill (not Nexium; but Red Pill with some Blue Pill retained so as to help it go down easier). Hell, that’s where HUS is now.

I’m starting to think HUS’ female contingent has seen the red pill in most of its ignominy, spit it back up, cut it in half, and just swallowed half. If so, that’s fine, but we’ll recognize it for what it is.

…I might be projecting here, but I comment at HUS because I have a daughter who’s about to be unleashed into this SMP and is chomping at the bit to go in. I’m there to learn and to hold forth.

I guess I see myself as a bit of a father figure. I’m older, I’m wiser, I’ve taken my share of lumps and wins. Maybe I can keep some of the young kids from making the same mistakes my wife and I made, if they just hear what I have to say. I guess I’m trying to do a job maybe their fathers could not or did not do, and that society no longer will do.
HUS and its female readership reacts not because they care about what you or I say.

…They react because they don’t like the delivery or the way we say it.

They react because it’s coming from a middle aged married schlub with problems in a current marriage or a past marriage. They react because neither those facts nor the sources of those facts (you and I) have any relevance to HUS readers, their lives, or their problems (despite the fact that you and I have seen those problems before or something similar to them).

HUS not only does not want to hear what we say, the way we say it is off-putting and unwelcome as well.

My delivery sucks too. It’s not so much that they don’t want to hear “the truth”, it’s that they don’t want to hear truth from us. They need to have a mom/Aunt Susan deliver it; not a dad/Uncle Ted.

They don’t want to hear Crazy Uncle deti with his PTSD or whatever else talk about everything on his mind and all his experiences and his off-beat ideas (no matter how fact-based they might be or how consistent they are with human nature) after he’s been let out of his attic apartment to be with the family.

Susan doesn’t mind me sitting down at the table and passing the mashed potatoes. What she does mind is the, uh, lack of FILTERING.

There you have it – the formula for getting your message across and increasing your opponent’s respect for you at the same time.

Constructive criticism
No whining
Honest admission of own weaknesses
Some praise to placate the person being roasted
Good insights
Admirable intentions

If I could clone deti I would, but several of you can learn a thing or two from him.

Ted D

Susan – “In fact, she goes for slightly built nerdy guys a lot of the time. One thing she likes is that these guys are nice to her – whereas the jerks treat her very badly, i.e. slut pile. I can see how non-alpha guys wind up getting into relationships with promiscuous girls sometimes.”

*facepalm*

So you’ve seen this in action? Then why all the resistance towards the men here saying this VERY thing, repeatedly? Are you simply of the belief that this young woman’s behavior is rare? Because I’ve seen this play out many times. Usually she starts off with an asshole. It lasts maybe a month, and then she walks away broken hearted and snags herself a beta boy to feel better about herself. The guy is so damn happy to have a GF that he puts up with her crap until she gets bored and she dumps him for her next alpha hit.

Good Lord Susan, this is almost exactly the situation I’ve personally complained about seeing, and the rebuttal from your side of the fence has been “sluts stay with sluts, so they don’t hurt the restricted folks”. Well, you just kinda proved my point and all we have left to decide is what frequency this happens at. From my perspective, it happens far more often than you believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

Sue: “Add in the fact that plenty of deltas are going to be physically attractive, and he’s crossed the threshold. I do wonder, though, how often these social lines get crossed. In my experience, the unrestricted scenes, e.g., Greeks, sports, are pretty insular.”

You’re assuming unrestricted people are only greekjocks and only greekjocks are unrestricted.

I was “delta”, but in my senior year I hosted twice-weekly keg parties at my college house, which served the GDI crowd. One was a lesser alpha, one probably Vox beta, another an obese omega, another a brooding mentally disturbed musician. I majored in music AND computer science. We had a extremely mixed GDI crowd, and actually had smatterings of sorority girls who we trained with us as freshman, come back to our pad to hang out. (Heck, One of my big “preselection” moments was when my wife & I were at a bar for my 21st birthday… and a sorority girl came up to me, threw her arms around me and kissed my cheek.) House parties back at home were the same mix, except even *more* varied, with blue-collar kids, coworkers, single MILFs, and the like.

That’s a big cross-section of restricted and unrestricted, without ever touching the social elites.

Sue: “Or are you saying that a girl in a class finds the guy in study group hot, so she jumps his bones some afternoon? Very possible.”

More like this, but more like some night when they find each other at the same party. Or maybe they don’t know each other at all, but rather have tangential social circles.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@OTC

You’re assuming unrestricted people are only greekjocks and only greekjocks are unrestricted.

That is a very good and fair point. I actually know some Greeks who were restricted (my kids!) and GDIs who were anything but. I think it boils down to what the social script is, or the culture. In small schools like Olive’s, the social scene included everyone, and it sounds like you also had a diverse mix. Other environments will be more segregated.

Does this mean we have some unrestricteds hooking up with each other – maybe a half to two-thirds of their hookups – and some venturing outside to seduce unrestricteds? LOL, that sounds like they are predators or even zombies.

Ted D

DV – no I said it sober and meant it. Most guys can’t handle a woman as blunt and forward as Sassy. When confronted by such a woman, they usually just call her a bitch and dismiss her, which is a serious mistake. Woman like Sassy can help men understand a lot about the underlying principles of female sexuality, because unlike most woman, Sassy doesn’t hide it.

JP

“I think female hypergamy is extremely useful and a great motivator to men to Get Shit Done. I also suspect it can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed, much like the male appetite for sexual variety can inflict a LOT of pain if not properly managed.”

Isn’t part of the problem that you first have to recognize that certain patterns of human behavior *exist*?

It’s kind of hard to understand what’s going on when you have no reference point as to the actual scripts people are using.

You also have to understand what you are feeling/experiencing internally and be able to make some sense out of it in order to properly channel it.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Woman like Sassy can help men understand a lot about the underlying principles of female sexuality, because unlike most woman, Sassy doesn’t hide it.

Or some women are different than Sassy you know I think people call us outliers here at HUS, funny enough Sassy is only one while the outliers are majority…funny that if most women are like Sassy where are they?

Passer_By

“I agree with you, and that is Escoffier’s main point – we need to manage our base instincts.”

Whoa! Hell just froze over. Susan adopted Escoffier’s use of the term “base”.

P.S. As a grumpy old man, I have no mission here other than (i) to analyze and debate for the mere sake of it and (ii) to amuse myself.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Passer By

P.S. As a grumpy old man, I have no mission here other than (i) to analyze and debate for the mere sake of it and (ii) to amuse myself.

In doing so, you amuse us as well. You have had a way of coming and going – sometimes there are months with no Passer By! Then you show up again and make my day. That’s some very effective push-pull

Ted D

Susan – “This. This is PURE BULLSHIT. You have no right to come here and use my blog as a platform to dilute my message. ”

With all due respect, as I said over at AG, this blog is public, and unless I missed something, public means accessible to all.

” If you want to counter my message, start your own damn blog, don’t be a freeloader here. The least you could have done is offer to share the cost of my server”

Much like a young woman offering a FWB scenario, I am not freeloading. You made a public forum and I am participating.

“I hear that membership in the I Hate Aunt Giggles club is free, and the biddies gather regularly offline to gossip and whine. Sounds like you’ve already attended some meetings!”

Personal attacks? Susan, do you truly believe I hate you? Have I not sent you links to things I feel you can use? Have I gone on a tirade of cross posting to bring the wolves to your door? I did exactly what you suggested to me months ago: I sought out male opinions on my issues, and what you see is how I interpreted that info. I have no desire to bash you, and if I did, I’d do a much better job than venting my frustrations at AG.

“It’s not your approach that’s a problem it’s your motives.”

We all have our reasons for doing what we do.

“That is not your decision or your choice. You comment here because I allow it, not because you are some sort of double spy Red Pill missionary. ”

Spy? Susan what in the hell are you smoking? If I was a spy I’d be posting under another name on AG and the ‘sphere. I’ve been completely above board the entire time I’ve been here. You are making this into drama, not me. Indeed I do comment here because you allow it, Andover said before I appreciate that. But that appreciation does NOT mean I will change my POV or “motives” for what I do.

Look, you CHOSE to start a public blog. I won’t, because I wouldn’t want to deal with people like me posting there, and because my opinion is anyone doing so is voting themselves to be an expert or advice columnist like Dear Abby or something. I have no desire to tell others what to do, but I have no problem knocking holes in what other people tell folks to do. When you post something I agree with, I’m right there agreeing. When you post something I think is BS, I call it. I’m not playing favorites, and I’m not just attack you. That is your perspective on it, not mine.

In the end, if you leave your front door open with a sign that says “welcome come on in” you have no room to complain when your house is full of bums. I’ve said many times here and elsewhere that if/when you tell me to leave, I’m gone. But I will force you to make that declaration, because until you do I see no reason I shouldn’t continue posting. I don’t say this to be an asshole, it’s just in my nature I guess. Your house, your call.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted

With all due respect, as I said over at AG, this blog is public, and unless I missed something, public means accessible to all.

You are incorrect. This blog is not private at my discretion. I invite people here to comment and be part of the community. Perhaps you will recall that I have likened it to my living room. You should not say anything here that you would not say in my home without expecting to be thrown out. I fund this blog, I write it – I am the host. Make no mistake, HUS is not your town park, and you are not a taxpayer. I owe you nothing.

Personal attacks? Susan, do you truly believe I hate you

It’s not about me, it’s about HUS. It serves a purpose, and it helps some individual young men and women, which is more than I ever aimed for. You boys talk more shit than high school girls at a slumber party, and I couldn’t care less what you say about me or my blog. But I will not allow you to come here with the express purpose of undermining my work.

In the end, if you leave your front door open with a sign that says “welcome come on in” you have no room to complain when your house is full of bums. I’ve said many times here and elsewhere that if/when you tell me to leave, I’m gone. But I will force you to make that declaration, because until you do I see no reason I shouldn’t continue posting. I don’t say this to be an asshole, it’s just in my nature I guess. Your house, your call.

If you can honestly say that you comment here in support of my mission to help young people who want relationships get them, I will not throw you out. If your position remains unchanged – that you are here as a counterforce to my views, to balance my commentary because it is invalid, then I’m asking you to leave.

I have no problem with people debating or disagreeing with posts I write – I seek productive and real debate, not an echo chamber. But if you are bound and determined to lessen the impact of HUS in some way, then go. It’s rude of you to hang around and enjoy the company when you’re dissing the host. I’ve thrown out many bums in my four years here, and my only regret is that in some cases I didn’t do it sooner.

INTJ

@ Susan

Unless INTJ has attended community college, he has no relevant observations. Even if he had, his statement was a gross and very negative generalization of female students there. My oldest friend runs a department at Diablo Valley CC and her students are earnest, hard-working, and trying very hard to pull themselves up in the world. They have zero time for shenanigans or assholes.

So were my mom’s students. But earnest, hard-working, and trying to pull themselves up in the world doesn’t have a direct bearing on their mating choices.

P.S. Are you talking about DVC? I actually took a class there during high school.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

P.S. Are you talking about DVC? I actually took a class there during high school.

Yes! My BFF from high school runs the dental hygiene program there. She lives in Moraga. We have been friends for 43 years! Where did you grow up?

INTJ

@ Susan

Ah, that’s the problem. Here is the quintessential alpha asshat:

Yeah that looks like a bitchy girl to me.

Ted D

Mike C – “when I first read that excerpt Susan quoted…my money was on Deti…”

Over time I’ve come to realize that Deti and I share many common views based on what I’ve read from him. Despite some people’s opinion, I find that to be rather good company to be compared with.

Other men I feel are of like mind:
Desi
Dogsquat
Obsidian
Lokland (at least enough overlap for government work)
OTC (same as above)
And of course my guys Cooper, INTJ, and HanSolo

There are others including yourself. I suppose if men are either woman friendly or ‘sphere woman haters and I must be labelled, I’ll take the latter. There isn’t a single man in that list I don’t identify with and respect a great deal. (As much respect as can be earned on the ‘net of course)

I miss Dogsquat. His blog has been idle a long time, and I hope he is well. Desi is another one who’s commentary I greatly admired.

JP

@Passer_by:

““I agree with you, and that is Escoffier’s main point – we need to manage our base instincts.”

Whoa! Hell just froze over. Susan adopted Escoffier’s use of the term “base”.

P.S. As a grumpy old man, I have no mission here other than (i) to analyze and debate for the mere sake of it and (ii) to amuse myself.”

Granted, my ideal, from the idyllic days of my youth, was always to destroy or completely repress the base instincts, because normally they only thing they did was confuse me and seem to get in my way, so I didn’t see a use for them.

However, barring that utopia, and recognizing that they have some value, I suppose that we should try to direct them appropriately.

My old comments section died, because the main commenteer died, and I ended up here through Stuart, where there’s dynamic commenteering, some of which is completely off topic. I’m not playing in the stock market for now, so those chat boards are less exciting to me at the moment.

Of course, now that I know that INTJ has some thoughts regarding string theory, this comments section becomes more appealing….

Anyhow, this blog has answered some questions I had about “what happened” with respect to my various encounters with women over the years. I am now less confused. Especially this shit test thingy.

Naturally, like everything else about human nature that I’ve gathered, it came way, way to late to do me any good at all. However, it will be helpful for my kids.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@JP

I adore Stuart. His blog is often the best thing I read all day. He’s fascinating – a trained psychotherapist who rejects therapy. (I don’t entirely share that view, I have benefited from therapy myself). And super smart, obvs.

Anyhow, this blog has answered some questions I had about “what happened” with respect to my various encounters with women over the years. I am now less confused. Especially this shit test thingy.

LOL, you are quite quirky and delightful. Please stick around and continue to highjack threads with heady discussions and esoteric information.

INTJ

@ Ted D

If we are going to start bringing in outside conversations, I’d like to add that I’ve had private conversations with several regular male contributors past and present at HUS, and many of them have advised me to just give up. My reply to every one of them was the statement I quoted above. The Coopers, HanSolos, and INTJs of HUS are much of what keeps me coming back. If this is the only place they get info on women, they’ll be sadly misinformed. Not because you or any of the regular ladies here lie, but because everything you all post is heavily dosed with female imperative, or femcenterism. (Whatever we want to call it…). I don’t believe for one moment you or anyone intends to lead them astray, but the results would be the same if it was intentional. I’m here constantly bumping back on things partly because I firmly and fully believe the men finding their way here should know that there ARE other points of view, and there ARE other men that feel exactly like they do.

If it means anything, the conversation you quoted me from above actually helped me to see HUS from a different perspective, and I’ve made an effort to tone down my “approach” largely based on the input from Vox and his regulars. (Including much constructive feedback from Olive!) However, I also found that the opinions I expressed are not nearly unique, and it gave me a better understanding as to why much of the ‘sphere sees you and HUS as the enemy. I disagree for the record that you are the enemy, but I completely understand why many hold that view, and I was surprised to find that it isn’t all based on hate and bitterness. Some of it is completely logical.

Perhaps you could start a blog? I’m increasingly starting to think that HUS is a good place for young women, but us young men need some other platform to discuss our experiences, views, etc. The rest of the manosphere seems to be either too jaded towards women or extremely conservative – to the point of wanting to return to the 50s or earlier. The one place I feel that’s decent is Heartiste, but that’s somewhat oriented towards more unrestricted males than myself.

Ted D

INTJ – “Perhaps you could start a blog? I’m increasingly starting to think that HUS is a good place for young women, but us young men need some other platform to discuss our experiences, views, etc. The rest of the manosphere seems to be either too jaded towards women or extremely conservative – to the point of wanting to return to the 50s or earlier. The one place I feel that’s decent is Heartiste, but that’s somewhat oriented towards more unrestricted males than myself.”

I Contemplated it and even had one running for a few months, but I am uncomfortable electing myself as the expert for a gentler Red Pill, because I’m still working it out for myself. I agree that the ‘sphere is far too jaded in general for such a task, and I truly had hope that DogSquats blog would become exactly that: a place like MMSL but geared towards all men instead of just married beta guys in trouble.

As Susan put it, I’m a freeloader I guess. Besides you’ve seen my communication style. I can’t imagine how unproductive a blog ran by me would be. Lol

INTJ

@ Susan

Yes it does, because a mother reporting to her 21 year old son is very unlikely to have really shared (or even know) what those young women in her CC are up to. My friend, OTOH, is close with every one of the 40 students in each class, and I have hung out there and watched her teach.

You’re the one shooting from the hip here. My mom is always close to each of the students in her class, except the black males – she tends to have trouble getting them to open up. She knows plenty about these students’ personal lives.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Perhaps you could start a blog?
He is adamant against that. But what about something more simple? a compromise like having him say ONE post about a particular letter/article/subject here on the main page and then opening a thread on the forum inviting all the interested guys to read the details of his position and/or engage on manly discussion about it, he can call it Guy’s locker room and then all the “young males he wants to save from female bad advice” can get the info if they choose to and we could have some peace at HUS and the ladies can continue feel welcomed to comment with freedom in a feminine way like Susan intended to once she started blogging, just my 99 cents (I feel generous in Saturnalia times :))

INTJ

@ Susan

Fair enough. I have to say, that’s my weakest link – small liberal arts schools. I know of the scene at a few, but I’m much more familiar with large universities and colleges of around 5K students.

I can imagine that the smaller the school, the more overlap.

Or a college where Greek vs. non-Greek is not a very important distinction. UT is one example.

JP

He could start a group blog and give everyone posting privileges.

That’s what happened the former cohort of commenteers over at Sudden Debt when the debates over ontology kind of took over the financial comments.

It would be technically “his” blog, but INTJ could post posts, etc.

INTJ

@ Ted D

I Contemplated it and even had one running for a few months, but I am uncomfortable electing myself as the expert for a gentler Red Pill, because I’m still working it out for myself. I agree that the ‘sphere is far too jaded in general for such a task, and I truly had hope that DogSquats blog would become exactly that: a place like MMSL but geared towards all men instead of just married beta guys in trouble.

As Susan put it, I’m a freeloader I guess. Besides you’ve seen my communication style. I can’t imagine how unproductive a blog ran by me would be. Lol

Doesn’t have to be an authoritative blog. Heck, I’d prefer something that isn’t authoritative – where we can have open discussion about the issues. I know a lot of us (all the guys you listed – and more) have a lot we could discuss with each other, but HUS simply doesn’t seem to be the best place. Unfortunately, Dogsquat seems to have been too busy for months now. I would consider the HUS guys only forum, but the forum is a really clunky place to post, and it probably doesn’t show up on Google either – which diminishes its value to a potential audience.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

the forum is a really clunky place to post, and it probably doesn’t show up on Google either – which diminishes its value to a potential audience.

The forum is indexed by Google, FWIW. Not sure what you mean by clunky?

Anyway, I have no problem with a guys only convo there – the category is already set up. Of course, you may prefer something more independent, but the offer stands.

Obviously, talking shit about HUS would not be OK. If that is your goal, you can set up a blog for free at Blogger or wordpress.com.

INTJ

@ JP, Ted D

He could start a group blog and give everyone posting privileges.

That’s what happened the former cohort of commenteers over at Sudden Debt when the debates over ontology kind of took over the financial comments.

It would be technically “his” blog, but INTJ could post posts, etc.

This would be perfect!

If you don’t want to do that, Ted D, I’ll be happy to set something up like this. As long as you and the rest of the male commenters promise to contribute every once in a while.

JP

You have the power to create a blog, INFJ. You can do it. Don’t doubt your Internet powers.

All it takes is a few clicks and giving Ted the right to post and then making sure that he doesn’t overwhelm it with his Tedness.

Then you’re off to the races.

Maybe you can have Susan link to it as an HUS derivative.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Maybe you can have Susan link to it as an HUS derivative.

Ha, like Pakistan is an India derivative.

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

Re: campus sluts, base instincts, etc. Well, I think that the girls are often in a tough position on this. If you tell a 19-year-old female that she is going to get married around 28-30 and that her college boyfriend(s) will not be around after graduation, why should she select for long-term provisioning traits now? She won’t benefit from them; she and the guy will be long broken up by the time this feature is important. Why choose great “dad” material now when she isn’t going to have the man’s kids?

Give her a relationship situation that she knows has a 12-18 month shelf life and of course she’s going to choose an exciting, hot guy. She needs the payoff to come early because the relationship is designed to blow up.

Ted D

“If I could clone deti I would, but several of you can learn a thing or two from him.”

I’ve learned a lot from Deti. The quote above was the most compelling one on the entire thread. That being said I am not nor do I wish to be a diplomat or politician. Personally my opinion of them is at best neutral and at worst sleazy conniving com-men. Not saying Deti is sleazy, but that I resent it when people try to persuade me using rhetorical devices. I don’t want or like being persuaded. I’d much rather hear the whole deal and make a choice. Anyone that leads with a sales pitch sets off my “they are trying to screw me” alarm. I don’t like it so I don’t do it.

JP

Sorry, INFJ = INTJ.

Ted D

INTJ – you have me thinking… It’s late and I gotta put the iPad down now that I’m all riled up. (Emotions really freaking suck)

We should chat perhaps tomorrow or layer this week. If there really is interest, I’d be willing to roll a forum. I simply don’t want to be the authoritative figure for a site giving advice. Dude my people skills suck. I have smarts and decent logical skills, but I would never trust social advice given solely on my opinion. That would be a fail.

INTJ

@ Susan

There are lots of hot girls at DVCC

If you’re talking about DVC, then yes, there are. Don’t know why, but there seems to be a very high concentration of hot girls along the 680 corridor.

JP

@Susan:

“deti is the diplomat, he makes the rest of my opponents look like clowns.”

VD uses the bullet point sledgehammer approach.

I don’t think he’s interested in placating.

He’s interested in being terse and hitting the bulls-eye on the first shot.

It’s an effective style in certain situations, however a blog for youngish women written by Susan is not where that style is appropriate or particularly effective.

INTJ

@ Ted D

INTJ – you have me thinking… It’s late and I gotta put the iPad down now that I’m all riled up. (Emotions really freaking suck)

We should chat perhaps tomorrow or layer this week. If there really is interest, I’d be willing to roll a forum. I simply don’t want to be the authoritative figure for a site giving advice. Dude my people skills suck. I have smarts and decent logical skills, but I would never trust social advice given solely on my opinion. That would be a fail.

Absolutely!

JP

@BB:

“Give her a relationship situation that she knows has a 12-18 month shelf life and of course she’s going to choose an exciting, hot guy. She needs the payoff to come early because the relationship is designed to blow up.”

I don’t think that would lead toward the development of the types of relationship skills that Susan is talking about.

JP

And, yet again, I solve another apparently intractable problem using my vast stores of otherwise useless knowledge.

Winning!

INTJ

Just saw this pic on Facebook lol: http://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/men.jpg

Lokland

@Ted D

“Lokland (at least enough overlap for government work)”

Chuckle.
In terms of unrestrictedness I am top score in all categories.
We are polar opposites.

I’m just smart enough to reach the logical conclusion that a restricted family life is infinitely more effective in terms of child rearing than an unrestricted lifestyle.

Our ideas overlap because I’m being strategic in my actions.

I wont say monogamy is a huge struggle, I quite enjoy it.

Fidelity on the other hand, is massively challenging for me ( even more so when sex is actually on the table).

Not to say i can’t decline (I recently did) but to suggest I didn’t want too…

Conclusion: your biology is much more suited to a civilized lifestyle than mine. I emulate your biology for strategic reasons.

Iggles

@ Ana:

Or some women are different than Sassy you know I think people call us outliers here at HUS, funny enough Sassy is only one while the outliers are majority…funny that if most women are like Sassy where are they?

+1

Two words: confirmation basis!

Damien Vulaume

Well, at this point it becomes clear that no serene discussion is possible without the sudden agressive interference of married male frustrations. Same old story. Boring, tiring, and I guess not good for the future of the gender interaction in America…

Good luck to you all and especially to you Susan. I still think that you are doing the best you can in the right direction, in the least bias way as possible, but I guess some of the people who come here to “lick their wounds” are off the mark. I hope the “mark” will someday neither be the feminist nor the chauvinist agenda.
Bon courage.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Damien

Thanks for the support, and I hope that was not a farewell. I have enjoyed your comments here – it’s interesting to see someone from another country gain understanding into how dysfunctional we Americans are in our relationships!

A Definite Beta Guy

That makes sense. Add in the fact that plenty of deltas are going to be physically attractive, and he’s crossed the threshold. I do wonder, though, how often these social lines get crossed. In my experience, the unrestricted scenes, e.g., Greeks, sports, are pretty insular. Or are you saying that a girl in a class finds the guy in study group hot, so she jumps his bones some afternoon? Very possible.

*break*

Yes, now I’m picturing Karen Owen as a black widow spider. And for the guy who’s “lucky” to be on the receiving end of this, most would probably go ahead and ask questions later.

Anyway, I appreciate the insight. Your anecdotes do serve to support INTJ’s hypothesis.

Thanks for the kind words. As for how exactly it works, I don’t know, I went to a school without a huge greek presence. For me, I saw a girl a few times and we happened to be in the same social circle, and at some point we would hook up once or twice.

I was very uncomfortable with the experiences, every time, at first. One girl gave me a friggin lap dance in the school library! What the hell?

Over time, with each girl, I got a lil more comfortable.

Also, I know you get bashed a lot, but honestly, you do a good job here. A lot of the manosphere is just way too damn aggressive. Roissy was a bitter and needed shot of whiskey, but it was difficult to trust women or even like myself after reading that.

This blog definitely frames things in a different way and lets me appreciate my more Beta aspects. I’m a lot better with women now and a lot more pleased with myself, but I can also trust my SO, which is IMMENSELY liberating.

It’s also why, when I was having trouble with my SO, I came here, and not Heartiste.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@ADBG

Thanks for your comment at 9:58. It got me quite choked up. One of the things I really, really want to do is communicate to men that their beta traits are valued by women. As I’ve said, beta with no alpha will not suffice. That’s the reality. But I hate to see men throw away the most developed and cerebral parts of themselves in a beta-hating purge. Every female commenter here except one – in the history of HUS – has preferred beta guys, in word and deed.

I am mocked in the sphere for trying to “build a better beta” and for hosting a “beta emporium.” I gladly accept that description.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@SW

By comparison, someone who pontificates and blows hot air without any legwork whatsoever is an annoyance.

In hindsight, Olive was right though. This was a Pyrrhic exercise, completely unnecessary. I do feel bad, and shouldn’t have insulted his intelligence, or taken liberties in your house. Very unbecoming and wrong of me. The means certainly weren’t justified.

But I remain amazed at how close-minded, illogical, and inconsistent an atheist in the hard sciences can be. He certainly demolishes the stereotype completely…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Megaman

I value your input enormously, you know that. You got a bit emotional – nothing I haven’t done just about every day, lol. None of us is perfect, none of us is a wizard at interpersonal communication. We do the best we can. I like to give people a lot of emotional leeway. If it’s not already obvious, what I’m looking to see is whether someone’s heart is in the right place. Yours is.

INTJ

@ Susan

Yes! My BFF from high school runs the dental hygiene program there. She lives in Moraga. We have been friends for 43 years! Where did you grow up?

Walnut Creek. Bet your BFF goes there for shopping.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Walnut Creek. Bet your BFF goes there for shopping.

Duh! I’ve scored the Clinique bonus there myself at Nordstrom. I love CA malls because they’re outside. My high school was like that – all the hallways were outdoors, as were the lockers.

Iggles

It’s not about me, it’s about HUS. It serves a purpose, and it helps some individual young men and women, which is more than I ever aimed for. You boys talk more shit than high school girls at a slumber party, and I couldn’t care less what you say about me or my blog. But I will not allow you to come here with the express purpose of undermining my work.

^^ THIS so much!

FWIW, I think you’re doing great work here Susan. Explaining and debunking myths about the current SMP, and helping young people get the relationships they want.

It’s distressing when people bash HUS for promoting monogamous LTRs & marriage when that’s what the majority of the 80% ultimately want and are in need of help getting there. But as the saying goes, misery loves company!

This site is helping a lot of people, both within and outside of your target demographic.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Thank you Iggles. xoxo

Sassy6519

@ Iggles

FWIW, I think you’re doing great work here Susan. Explaining and debunking myths about the current SMP, and helping young people get the relationships they want.

It’s distressing when people bash HUS for promoting monogamous LTRs & marriage when that’s what the majority of the 80% ultimately want and are in need of help getting there. But as the saying goes, misery loves company!

This site is helping a lot of people, both within and outside of your target demographic.

I agree 100%.

@ Susan Walsh

Don’t let “the haters” get you down. You are doing a great thing here. I’ve been reading your blog avidly for around 2 years now. I’ve learned so much valuable information from you, and I respect you a great deal. You’ll always have my vote.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Sassy

Thank you. You alone have added so much to HUS I cannot even begin to measure it. Your forthright feedback, your sharing of your own experiences – it’s invaluable. I see you as the perfect representation of the “unrestricted” female with self-control and future time orientation. I believe you are an inspiration to many women who read here.

Ted D

Susan – “If you can honestly say that you comment here in support of my mission to help young people who want relationships get them, I will not throw you out.”

I give you my word that I believe that by being the counter voice here I am indeed helping young people who want relationships. No bullshit, I have no desire to sabotage HUS. However, since HUS presents itself as an advice site, I often feel that people should see the other side of the given advice, even if that other side doesn’t fit the format. I earnestly think that everyone should know all they can about something as important as mate selection, and even when what you post is the “more correct” view, it is not the whole truth. Again, not because you intend to deceive, but because you post from your own perspective. No surprise since I and everyone else does as well. But, as the host, I view you as the local “expert” and as such sometimes I can’t help but feel like people should get a second opinion and decide for themselves.

This is why I don’t want to blog: I don’t want anyone to act based only on my opinion, because I may be full of shit. Mostly I think you are very informed, honest, and genuinely want to help people. However, your method of doing that is often rhetorical in that you present the topic and gently guide people to the conclusion you feel is best. I get that, but as with all sales pitches it tweaks my “but that is in NO WAY the only view of the situation”, which usually prompts me to post. And when I write something to that extent, I am accused of repeating myself and being a nuisance when the theme I am objecting to has been repeated often as well. (My repetition is unwelcome because it is a contrary view, but yours is OK because, well, it’s yours or it agrees with yours if it was another poster) I don’t mean it to be adversarial, I simply and truly believe that people deserve to know everything, right or wrong.

Leading people to the solution may be noble and well intentioned, but it robs people of making the choice for themselves.

That’s it. No hidden agenda, no malice, no spying. Who would I be spying for anyway? Most of the ‘sphere that even knows who I am think I’m a mangina or “spergy, (which I’ll concede is a legitimate accusation I think. The spergy part, lol)

The only “beef” I have if there is one at all is that although HUS is primarily a site geared towards college educated women, the conversations often drift into the realm of the “common” folk, and although I don’t claim to represent anyone let alone “common” folk, I feel that by virtue of growing up and living with them all my life what I’ve seen does apply when we swim in those waters.

You don’t have to kick me out, I have manners and would leave if asked. I’m not looking for HS drama, and I never recall saying anything to you on such a personal level as to allude to your marriage failing. I don’t take much personally, but IMO that was a shot below the belt. Lastly, I’m surprised you believe that I would read some woman hating blog and become a mindless supporter. As averse as I am to taking anyone’s word at face value, what makes you think the ‘sphere is any more convincing than you at brainwashing me? I read, I analyze, I adjust my beliefs and views. I have never in my life ever blindly followed anyone, at least since I left the Church…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

. But, as the host, I view you as the local “expert” and as such sometimes I can’t help but feel like people should get a second opinion and decide for themselves.

That’s OK with me. HUS would not have any comments at all if I did not welcome this. But that is quite different from thinking I am full of it and leading guys astray, and your thinking you can comment and “fix it.” We are in it together, productively debating, or we’re not. I don’t require agreement, I require good faith.

Leading people to the solution may be noble and well intentioned, but it robs people of making the choice for themselves.

I state clearly that my mission is to provide strategic advice. The reason I have a lot of readers is that people need some help and information when they are deciding what to do. No matter what I advise, people are always free to make their own choices.

I never recall saying anything to you on such a personal level as to allude to your marriage failing. I don’t take much personally, but IMO that was a shot below the belt.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to here. I suspect a misunderstanding, as I do not recall your ever referring to my own marriage in any way. Can you enlighten me?

Ted. I am fond of you. I think you know that. Otherwise you would be long gone. I believe you are a good man, and you have many of the traits that I believe make for good lifelong mates. But make no mistake, I will defend HUS like it is my child. I do not care if the manosphere hates me or not. 90% of my traffic does not come from the sphere (though 75% of my commenters do). The only thing that matters is the mission. Relationships.

INTJ

@ Susan

Duh! I’ve scored the Clinique bonus there myself at Nordstrom. I love CA malls because they’re outside. My high school was like that – all the hallways were outdoors, as were the lockers.

Haha. My local high school, Northgate High School, was supposed to be mostly open air. Then at some point during the construction they decided that was a bad idea. So the whole structure was messed up, and the building is like a prison building.

JP

@ADBG:

“I was very uncomfortable with the experiences, every time, at first. One girl gave me a friggin lap dance in the school library! What the hell?”

I was just pleasantly confused since it wasn’t in my extensive library of life experiences.

Although, I did assume that it meant that we were now dating. In hindsight, this was not a good idea.

Eventually, in law school, I learned out that dating wasn’t necessarily the next step.

Which really confused me.

I didn’t really experience heartbreak or trauma from these adventures.

Just complete confusion.

A Definite Beta Guy

Found a video yearbook that included me.

Good god.

The reason for girl problems are self-evident, lol. I had to click away within 5 seconds. I literally could not stand it.

On the other hand, found a video of a my high school crush, too. That was “awwwww”-inspiring

A Definite Beta Guy

Oh, yeah, JP, I had no concept of how to understand ANY of this. I was totally unarmed and clueless and left fumbling in the dark.

Being confused is devastatingly painful

JP

I didn’t really have girl problems that weren’t caused by either my inaction or inappropriate action.

I was particularly talented at making girls mad at me and/or experience significant crying.

Mostly because I really had no idea what I was supposed to be doing as opposed to malice.

These experiences really didn’t help me build what HUS promotes as “relationship skills” since I had no idea what the correct solution was to any of my problems nor where to go for any kind of meaningful advice. Not that I would have listed to the advice. I was just excellent at creating problems for myself.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@JP

You must be an extremely handsome but clueless male. There is no other explanation.

HanSolo

@INTJ and Ted D

Just set up a blog and throw out a topic and let people discuss. No one has to make really big posts or be the authority figure. I’d comment on there.

Jackie

Susan is awesome and really cares about people and wants the best for the HUSsies and HUSsars. Like the Fairy Godmother of True Love.

She devotes a LOT of time to make HUS cool, interesting and a place to learn.– She is an exemplary hostess. And if someone is hosting you IRL, you try to be a good guest. How that gets lost in translation online, I’m not quite sure.

It’s the start of Advent and Hannukah– the season of Light and Peace. We can discuss stuff with more light than heat, right?

JP

@ADBG:

“Oh, yeah, JP, I had no concept of how to understand ANY of this. I was totally unarmed and clueless and left fumbling in the dark.

Being confused is devastatingly painful”

I was used to being generally clueless and fumbling in the dark, so it really didn’t feel that unusual from a life experience point of view.

I wasn’t falling in love, so no pain/heartbreak for me. I was confused as to why a girl with a boyfriend would make out with me (I didn’t know she had a boyfriend until he came home), since that really didn’t seem like appropriate relationship behavior. I didn’t appreciate being kicked out of her apartment. It was warm in there and cold outside!

I did get to learn, vicariously through my roommate, that when your LDR girlfriend cheats on you, proposing to her after you find out does not result in an engagement. Of course, I remember thinking to myself at the time “I think I would be furious, rather than ready to go propose, but maybe that’s just me.”

JP

Can somebody tell me what the manosphere consists of, blogging-wise?

I know the Roissy/Heartsy and now I know Vox Day.

Is there a Blog Circle of Manly Awesomeness or something?

JP

@Jackie:

“And if someone is hosting you IRL, you try to be a good guest. How that gets lost in translation online, I’m not quite sure.”

BL1y’s (now Constitutional Daily) Comment policy puts it best, with respect to the Internet:

“Pretty much anything goes. I won’t edit comments based on language or content. If you have a problem reading the sort of filth that flows free on the internet, you’re probably at the wrong site. Try reading a feminist blog, they like to moderate the hell out comments.”

Jackie

@INTJ

INTJ, you know I like you and I want you to get your Victorian-Era courtship girlfriend, author more papers and go on to even greater success.

Which is why I will be honest with you:
Dude, the stuff you said about CC students, even if quoting from your mom, is just not cool. To be frank, it was snobbish and I am surprised.

Some CC students are awesome, some are not. Some are brilliant, many are average, some are messed up. *Just like at every other school.* My sister was a Rhodes Scholar and she will tell you the same exact thing.

INTJ, lots of people are smart, brilliant even. But it is far more important to have a good heart. I have regretted saying a flip remark or sarcastic remark– many times! But I have never regretted being kind.

Jackie

@JP

“BL1y’s (now Constitutional Daily) Comment policy puts it best, with respect to the Internet:

“Pretty much anything goes. I won’t edit comments based on language or content. If you have a problem reading the sort of filth that flows free on the internet, you’re probably at the wrong site. Try reading a feminist blog, they like to moderate the hell out comments.”
==
Hey JP!

That may be true, though I see the internet as a test of one’s true character. You know the old saw about character is what you do when no one is watching. Or that you can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat the least of us– the old, the ugly, the poor, the outcast.

Well, I think the way you communicate when you are hidden behind a keyboard and sceen, with no social controls in place, says a lot.

It’s easy to talk “filth” as per that comment policy. I believe we’re called to something better.

JP

This was a very unrestricted flirty woman (who I had dated a year or two prior). And I am profoundly clueless, generally. And I’m still annoyed that I was shoved out into the cold. I’m pretty sure that I not very attractive.

I may be an Inattentive ADD poster-child.

Iggles

You’re very much welcome Susan

Ted D

Susan – “So you drank the radioactive Kool Aid. Well done, Ted! Go fall into the open arms of male bloggers who can high five you right into a miserable relationship.”

On its face this comment struck me as “now that you are a brainwashed woman hater I can’t wait to see your marriage fail” translated in the extreme for dramatic effect. Not only am I very much driven on this subject partly because of my previous failure as a husband, but as I said I find it hard to believe you think I would so willingly and blindly “fall into the open arms of male bloggers”. What bloggers Susan? Like I said, most of the ones that even know who I am think I’m a pussy for trying here. I don’t care at all, but I find it extremely ironic that you somehow came to the conclusion that I’m trying to “kiss ass” my way into their good graces or something. For what? The best it would get me is a lapdog position to an “alpha” male. If I ever have any hope of being one myself, it won’t be by licking the boots of a current one. Besides, I’m shooting for Gamma, remember?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

On its face this comment struck me as “now that you are a brainwashed woman hater I can’t wait to see your marriage fail” translated in the extreme for dramatic effect.

That is not what I meant. I would take no joy in seeing your marriage fail. I do think you’re brainwashed and cultivating a real loathing of women, yes. You are learning at the knees of some very damaged men.

Like I said, most of the ones that even know who I am think I’m a pussy for trying here. I don’t care at all, but I find it extremely ironic that you somehow came to the conclusion that I’m trying to “kiss ass” my way into their good graces or something.

I can’t imagine you kissing anyone’s ass Ted. I believe that you have something in common with these men that is powerful: fear. Fear of not being attractive, not being able to maintain a relationship, not being masculine, not being sexual. In some cases, Dark Triad males know they can’t relate to other human beings in a loving way, so they struggle to justify their “agentic” approach to relationships. The wind of fear blows through the manosphere, and it carries a stench. It’s a scent that women instinctively detect and are repulsed by – even on the internet.

As for irony, the men who think you’re a pussy are the ones who “can’t quit Susan,” lol. They’re either here up in my grill, or they’re talking about me elsewhere. What a strange squad of suitors.

J

Wow, looks like I missed a lot of the excitement–which is fine because the more of these conflits I read, the dumber they seem to me.

The strength of this place is that it’s been one of the few fora where men and women ae able to talk honestly with a minimum of hostility. Let’s value that and not tear it down, OK?

Jackie

@Olive

“Unless you have a moral or religious belief against it, and then you are sacrificing something you hold dear for a small shot at success.

Tell that to my ex. Quite the religious guy (yes the fire and brimstone type) but had no qualms about hooking up.”
===
Olive, I was going to write you a comment “Religious hypocrites blah blah blah; they drive me crazy! Blah blah.”

Instead, here are two thoughts:

*There can be no happiness until one’s words and actions are congruent. (Not exact quote– the books is around here somewhere!) In this way, Fiery McBrimstone is actually creating his own punishment (I would say “consequence”) because he is hurting his integrity.

*A very beautiful passage from the Tao Te Ching, (Ch 56, I think?), about whether or not one’s heart is peaceful:

“If you close your mind in judgements
and traffic with desires,
your heart will be troubled.
If you keep your mind from judging
and aren’t led by the senses,
your heart will find peace.

Seeing into darkness is clarity.
Knowing how to yield is strength.
Use your own light
and return to the source of light.
This is called practicing eternity.”

Cooper

@Hansolo, Ted, INTJ

You guys got me thinking.. Isn’t it possible for us to simply make it a never-ending comment section?

J

lots of people are smart, brilliant even. But it is far more important to have a good heart. I have regretted saying a flip remark or sarcastic remark– many times! But I have never regretted being kind.

You’re a wise girl, Jackie.

Passer_By

I think we need a group hug, here. Ted? Susan? Coop?

HanSolo

@Cooper

It is possible. Lots of different ways to organize it depending on what the goals are.

I think it would be good to have different posts or topics so that people can find things afterwards. Have some sort of organization. Just have someone say I’m going to put up a new topic on such and such and then let the comments flow there and going off topic would be fine as well.

szopen

@jp
check dalrock, marriedmansexlife (well he is sometimes ridiculed by manosphere) or just put manosphere into google and start to read. Frankly, most of those blogs are quite alike and once you’ve read three of them, you stop to see added value.

As for VD, his attitude and his views on world are strangely similar to one politician over here. This politician, JKM, for 20 years tries to win elections, he has something like 3% support, and he uses elegant logic, is not affraid to talk about his views and so on. He openly says that democracy is wrong and only wealthy males should vote. Highest tested IQ amongst Polish politicians.

Just to illustrate his attitude and the way he communicates, recently he said in TV that he does not understand why everyone is getting so excited at golden medals in para-olympics. He bluntly said no one in the world cares about para-olympics, no one really likes to watch it since normal olympics are far more enjoyable, and hence it considers TV fussing about it a kind of paranoia.

You may not believe it, but he was surprised by a rage this statement caused. High IQ people very often are unusually stupid.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Is this our VD or is someone else with the same moniker?
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/12/03/vox-day-is-a-white-nationalist-whod-have-thought/

Just1Z

@Ana
it’s him

Just1Z

@TedD et al (‘Club TedD’?)

it might be interesting to have a blog between HUS (which I don’t think is a manosphere blog) and teh manosphere, I think that there’s space in the market. As Susan says HUS isn’t somewhere to digest the red-pill at the angry, or even annoyed, stage of the ‘awakening’. That’s fine, HUS has a mission and that isn’t it. However, I think that the balance of HUS is something to be emulated, just allowing for more the XY experience to be mentioned.

I’d like to think that it and HUS would get on very well, if they don’t then something will have gone wrong in nuHUS*. But nuHUS would be better off with a little distance from HUS, I think (i.e. not in the HUS forum). Otherwise you are putting Susan in the tricky position of appearing to approve of stuff that doesn’t fit HUS-as-is. I don’t mean that the new blog would be anti-HUS, but that maybe it would be even less PC than here. Sooner or later there would be a parting of the ways. I’d prefer that the new blog was a second home to the ‘stronger’ women here (no names), I definitely think that both sexes need to be involved for the site to be interesting. I am definitely not looking for a new testosterone only fuelled manosphere blog.

Another reason for another blog is that I suspect that the loading on Susan from HUS is both huge and growing. Can’t we leave her with at least a little time to take part in the positive banter, rather than moderate the bad tempered stuff?

Anyway that’s the view from someone not listed as a member of ‘Club Ted’ *sniff*.

*definitely not a name suggestion.

Ted D

Just1z – “Anyway that’s the view from someone not listed as a member of ‘Club Ted’ *sniff*.”

Wasn’t meant as a slight. The older guys in my list are all (I think…) either married or interested, and probably looking to have a family. You and I are ideologically very close I believe, but the major difference is that you ARE willing to sit on the sidelines and watch it burn, without much concern. I’ll be poolside with you, but only IF the disaster can’t be stopped. (after all, if the world is gonna burn, I might as well roast a few marshmallows…) But, I have four kids under my care, and I feel like I would be failing them if I didn’t at least give a shit that the world sucks, even if I can’t change it.

and good grief man. I wouldn’t join any club I was the namesake of. It won’t get you anything but grief.

Lokland – I didn’t really explain myself well. I know you are very unrestricted to my very restricted. I’m not saying we see eye to eye on sexuality at all. But, you and I agree on much/most of the basic concepts of the Red Pill, and for the most part appear to agree on what it means, and how things will progress. We disagree, but I think that probably stems from our polar views on sexuality. Where we meet in the middle is logical conclusions. I get that you are being strategic, and that makes you appear to be “conservative”. I do the exact same thing to appear “normal” around people: I observe the folks around me and emulate their behavior to “fit in”, because on my own I simply don’t. You are very unrestricted, but see the value in containing it for a greater good.

Susan – I think I figured out where the “spy” stuff came from, and if so I owe you an apology. I mentioned that I’ve talked to some bloggers/posters offline, and didn’t really clarify. There have been no secret meetings with ‘sphere posters to plan the demise of HUS. I’m not making back room deals with the devil. In every single case, the message from them as been: You are wasting your time. Susan won’t listen, and her readership doesn’t care. And in every case, I countered that I think you are smart (obviously) and earnestly trying to help people. I can’t say I’ve been your cheerleader or anything, but I can say that there was never any discussion of spying or purposeful nuisance. (which means all the “trouble” I’ve caused isn’t intentional. Again, I’d have done a better job and gave PJ a real run for her money IF my goal was sabotage)

I don’t expect you to be grateful, and I’m not telling you to try and get sympathy, but I realized that the comment could have been taken as a veiled threat of some sort. IF I ever make a threat, it isn’t veiled in any way. If I wanted to spy for the ‘sphere, I wouldn’t be doing it under my usual name. Hell, I wouldn’t even be posting at all! What kind of spy would I be drawing attention to myself?

And for the life of me I can’t figure out what prompted all this. I made a comment which I truly thought was funny (I literally chuckled as I hit SUBMIT) in reply to Mike C telling me I was gonna get in trouble for stirring the pot. That comment wasn’t a threat either, but your response was to dig up stuff from AG (which I’m starting to wonder if you’ve been “holding on to” for just such an occasion?) Maybe you were still riled up at Mike, and my replying to him stoked your ire? I don’t know, but the reason I went to AG was:
Vox is a smart guy
I didn’t want to stir up that kind of conversation here, and to an extent Vox welcomes such topics

That’s it. No malice, no nefarious plan. I was frustrated that so many guys were telling me you wont listen and that I’m wasting my time, that I had to figure out why they believed it. For the most part Vox and crew set me straight, and since I believe I’ve done a good job of toning down.

As to my motivation? I brought a child into this world believing it was one way, and I’ve since learned that my view of the world was very wrong, and it is another way. I don’t like the world I’ve found, and frankly I feel very guilty that I brought someone into it. I’ve sentenced him to a life of dealing with this bullshit, because I never knew it existed. I love my son (and my other kids of course, but I’m not directly responsible for them being born…) and it tears me up that THIS is the world he will live in. The Blue Pill world I believed in was a lie, and I can deal with that personally. But it means that my desire to bring a child into the world was based on false premises, and instead of him growing up in the world I thought existed, he will have to navigate a much harsher climate than I ever imagined. It makes me feel like I’ve failed him, because I was too oblivious to know what I was bringing him into. I hate (and I don’t use the word lightly) the Modern West, at least in terms of its morality (or lack of), its policy (political correctness is the state religion), and its greed. I didn’t see it before, but now that I do, I am mourning my children’s future already, because it will in no way be a future I’d hoped they would inherit.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

There have been no secret meetings with ‘sphere posters to plan the demise of HUS.

Actually, there have been, I have it on the authority of someone who has actually participated. It’s a bloggers only group, though, I know you did not “attend.” However, I am certain that your group of advisors and that group of bloggers overlap.

I didn’t seriously mean that you were a spy with a mission. I just mean that coming here with the intent of discrediting me or HUS in any way is unacceptable to me, and to the extent that I am aware of its happening I won’t allow it. In your case, I was frankly stunned to see you confess that at AG. I really do consider it the equivalent of your pissing in the punchbowl. You are not the only one.

but your response was to dig up stuff from AG (which I’m starting to wonder if you’ve been “holding on to” for just such an occasion

There was no “digging” or “holding on” necessary. Vox wrote a post about HUS a month or so ago and I read it. Vox himself states, and deti confirms, that HUS is not a place for old farts to tell college women what they need to know about their base natures. Neither is it a place for you to battle your various “isms.” Why I chose that moment to confront you is irrelevant – cleaning house at HUS is a never-ending chore. If I were willing to wield the ban hammer the way people suggest I do, I wouldn’t even have to deal with this crap. It is in the interest of open dialog that I spend my time this way. Not fun.

I don’t like the world I’ve found, and frankly I feel very guilty that I brought someone into it. I’ve sentenced him to a life of dealing with this bullshit, because I never knew it existed.

I am sorry for you. I don’t understand you or your outlook, but I respect your right to see the world in your own way. I respectfully request that you do not share or preach your view here, because it’s a total downer on a blog where young women who hope to be mothers someday seek positive and hopeful strategic support.

Think of it this way. Every time you rant, I lose 10 readers. Probably way more.

JP

@Anacaona:

“Is this our VD or is someone else with the same moniker?”

That appears to be “our VD”.

Just1Z

@TedD – I was laughing as I typed *sniff*, no harm done

“without much concern” – if that were actually true, I wouldn’t be here trying to aid communication between the sexes (trying != succeeding). I’m saying that that attitude can reduce stress when one has no ability to fix things.

Just1Z

‘Club TedD’ isn’t a bad name c.f. ‘Club Med’
http://www.clubmed.com

see ye poolside

Just1Z

@TedD
are you sure that they were calling you a pussy? the comments that I skimmed were more along the lines of that you were wasting your time. It wasn’t a conversation that had my undivided attention so I may have missed something (especially if SB said it).

Abbot

Feminists are from Pluto

Female writer looking to make a buck when the feminists wake up and find this:

http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/11/26/0361684312467169.abstract
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/100/2/309/

In these types of “studies,” the authors NEVER identify who is determining this view of women:

“these findings suggest that men are granted more sexual freedom to engage in sexual activity than women.”

Who exactly is doing this granting?

““Women who accepted a casual sex offer were viewed as more promiscuous, less intelligent, less mentally healthy, less competent, and more risky than men who accepted the same offer,”

Does not define one or 20 offers and really, who is the target audience this author really wants to change?

.

Ted D

Susan – “I can’t imagine you kissing anyone’s ass Ted. I believe that you have something in common with these men that is powerful: fear. Fear of not being attractive, not being able to maintain a relationship, not being masculine, not being sexual.”

I do have fear, but it isn’t for my attractiveness or lack of masculinity. (If it was, I’m not doing myself any favors) My fear is that my children will have to figure out how to make a go of it in this mess, and I don’t have a clue of how to help them. I fear that my boys will have to deal with figuring out “their place” in the world, which is unfair and unjust. I fear that my girls will go to college and become flaky, entitled woman that truly believe their “needs” are the only thing that matters. I fear that they all are inheriting a very screwed up world, because I and many parents failed to recognize all this BS when there WAS a chance to stop it.

I’m not fearful for myself Susan. I have a mate and a family that love me. Even if the rest of the world hated my guts, they are all I need. (And queue the “oneitus” comments from the peanut gallery) My fear is based solely for my children. Because it enrages me that THIS is the world we left them. Not the world your children are in Susan, the world my children will be in. Despite sharing a name and government, I don’t believe it is very similar. To me, you and yours are behind the castle walls, not fully shielded, but at least protected by thick high walls and castle guards. My kids? We are the ones in the shanty town outside your gates, and when the horde comes charging, we’ll be the first to be tossed on the pile of dead. I don’t resent it, and I don’t begrudge it, but what is the most bothersome is that the folks on the inside of the castle don’t even care that the folks outside are going to be throwing themselves on pikes trying to survive, while the folks on the inside allow it to happen.

“I do think you’re brainwashed and cultivating a real loathing of women, yes. You are learning at the knees of some very damaged men.”

LOL not in the least. Why do you think that just because I agree with something Rollo or some other blogger posts that I’ve somehow become his disciple. It’s funny, because you are accusing me at this moment with what I voiced concern over months ago: that many young and impressionable men might go “dark” because the ‘sphere pushes it. I’m not young, and I’m far less naive than I used to be. If I use a term like “female imperative”, it isn’t because I drank the Kool-aid, it is because I actually agree with the term and its use. Like Rollo or not, he is a smart guy and makes a lot of sense. It doesn’t matter to me if I “like” him or not, if he says something that rings true, I’ll accept it and move on. I think that what you see as brainwashing is actually just me picking and choosing the things from the ‘sphere I personally resonate with. Loathe women? HELL no! I love women! If I ever “loathed” women, it was months ago when I was really struggling with these new Red Pill concepts. What I do loathe though is women behaving badly because they just don’t see it. I loathe women acting entitled because our society promotes it. I loathe the behavior Susan, NOT the person(s). There is plenty of bad behavior from men AND women, and the only way to fix it is to drag it into the light and expose it for what it is: bad behavior.

Do I really come across as a woman hater? I genuinely feel like I was MUCH worse a year ago on this, and lately I’ve begun to feel that I have a much better understanding of women now. Because of it I don’t feel that angst. However, it also means that I’m seeing WHY there is so much bad behavior, and damn it I want to see it fixed! Not patched over, stamped out. Both men and women are far to selfish and entitled, and instead of calling it what it is, we all seem to just brush it under the carpet and assume they will “work it out for themselves”. That is OUR job: as parents and citizens we should be putting full effort into stopping this, and instead we seem to be welcoming it with open arms and tightly closed eyes. And it simply astounds and frustrates me.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

If I use a term like “female imperative”, it isn’t because I drank the Kool-aid, it is because I actually agree with the term and its use.

I don’t. I don’t write about it, I don’t invite discussion about it – every time you say it you are off topic. Go discuss it where your views are welcome.

Ted, I am tired of discussing this. Please let me know if I have made myself clear so that I can get back to writing a post. I encourage you to work with the guys who would like to see a male-only forum away from HUS.

JP

@Susan:

“As for irony, the men who think you’re a pussy are the ones who “can’t quit Susan,” lol. They’re either here up in my grill, or they’re talking about me elsewhere. What a strange squad of suitors.”

I think that’s common for successful blogs (above a certain level of readership) on social relations subjects.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I think that’s common for successful blogs (above a certain level of readership) on social relations subjects.

Yeah, it comes with the territory. It’s tedious and annoying, but that’s part of the deal. I don’t have to tolerate it here, though. If people are not down with my mission statement, they should say bye.

JP

” The wind of fear blows through the manosphere, and it carries a stench. It’s a scent that women instinctively detect and are repulsed by – even on the internet.”

It’s something worse than fear, I fear.

Abbot

Here it goes again –

“the effects of sexual oppression and the need for a positive attitude toward women and their sexuality”

Who is the target for this “needed” attitude change?

“We have a culture that bases women’s value on someone else’s version of how they should be sexual,”

Who is that “someone else?”

“Women have created a hierarchy which we are all complaining about, and yet we are contributing to it,”

ah, but the starting point is from….men? The actual target of her ire.

Its time to break up this retorted propaganda. Going forward, it is now a

virgin/marriagable/slut TRICHOTOMY

http://www.dailytargum.com/news/university/sexologist-breaks-down-virgin-slut-dichtomy-as-societal-norms/article_118cf630-3ea0-11e2-b633-001a4bcf6878.html

.

Abbot

Why is there such a war being waged on what men think of women sexually? End of the year push?

“Studies show that in long-term relationships, women are more likely than men to lose interest in sex, and to lose it sooner,” Lyubomirsky writes. “Why? Because women’s idea of passionate sex depends far more centrally on novelty than does men’s.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/opinion/sunday/new-love-a-short-shelf-life.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me&_r=1&

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Several people have linked to the New York Times article on the short shelf life of passion. I posted about it here in the forum, would love to hear your thoughts.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/forum/feminism-marriage-economics-culture/the-short-shelf-life-of-passion/

http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

FWIW –

My godfather just turned 95. Last year, he and his wife were invited by President Obama to represent our aging WWII veterans at a reception at the White House. Since he was already in the Navy in 1941, he experienced the entire war, fighting in both the Atlantic and the Pacific.

He met ‘Tootsie’ while on shore leave in Honolulu during the lull between Nagasaki and the Japanese surrender. She was 19, visiting her sister, a Navy nurse, and had taken advantage of some of the down time to do some watercolors of Oahu. ‘Pat’ squired her and her sister around the island and fell deeply in love with ‘Tootsie’.

My godfather got her address and was delighted to find out that she was from Greenville, SC, just down the road from Charlotte, where his family lived. However, he believed he would be mustered out in California and had been planning to settle there with his brother in San Diego.

They got very intimate very quickly. She was from a Baptist family, he was Greek Orthodox, so they didn’t mention marriage. But my godfather had already decided that he would marry her.

By happy design, he was ordered back to the Mediterranean, and was mustered out in Newport News, He went directly to South Carolina after a brief stop at home to inform his parents of his intentions. He proposed to ‘Tootsie’ and she was given permission by her family to convert to Orthodoxy. They married in 1946, and their daughter was born nine months and five minutes later.

‘Pat’ laments what he sees as the world his grandchildren have to inhabit. “I don’t know how any young man could ever feel the way about a girl the way I do about ‘Tootsie’. I don’t think it’s allowed. We messed around, but she was my girl, and I was her fella in a way that doesn’t seem to be possible now.”

“Anyway, the girls have gotten so pushy and shouldery, and the boys have gotten so spineless and soft, that there isn;t much difference between them. You need that difference to strike a spark, and without a spark there isn’t much chance of a fire.”

“Hell, these days it seems like they’re just kind of rolling over each other, then going their own way.”

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mule

“Anyway, the girls have gotten so pushy and shouldery, and the boys have gotten so spineless and soft, that there isn;t much difference between them. You need that difference to strike a spark, and without a spark there isn’t much chance of a fire.”

“Hell, these days it seems like they’re just kind of rolling over each other, then going their own way.”

This gave me goosebumps. Pat is wise – the spark can only come about via the friction of differences.

JuTR

Well, as a professional pool sitting spectator, I can tell you it isn’t fear that keeps me out of the game.

It’s a healthy understanding of the negative risks and potential outcomes that are much more devastating than the rewarding ones. It’s the same reason I do not go and gamble all my money away at casinos. It’s the same reason I do not invest heavily in one stock or one market sector. It’s the same reasoning that leads me to the conclusion that buying and maintaining a car is a better investment than renewing a lease. It is a simple observations of the costs, the risks and the rewards, and then like any investor, deciding on your personal level of comfort, and then sticking with the strategy.

You can be frustrated with the system for stacking the odds against you, but for me, that doesn’t translate down to a personal level. I continue to find enjoyment and fun in life, I make friends (all male), excel in my career, and enjoy the things I like without worrying about how it affects attraction with women. Most of the stuff I do women wouldn’t appreciate anyway. Car modding, audiophile, lumen junkie/flashoholic, laser fanatic, expert jerky maker and griller, tech geekery, wood work, welding, fabrication, hunting, shooting and reloading make up who I am, and have zero value in today’s SMP. But, it makes me interesting and enjoyable as a friend to peers, and that is validation enough.

Cooper

Susan,
“Think of it this way. Every time you rant, I lose 10 readers. Probably way more.”

Each time I’ve seen you have to defend HUS against Ted, I tend to feel very unwelcome. (Like if we cared, we’d stay away.)
Cause he and I tend to be in agreement, a lot of the time. So, I can’t help feel like a troll considering how much I rant.
If you have a problem with what he posts. I can’t imagine your opinion of mine being very different.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Cooper

Each time I’ve seen you have to defend HUS against Ted, I tend to feel very unwelcome. (Like if we cared, we’d stay away.)
Cause he and I tend to be in agreement, a lot of the time. So, I can’t help feel like a troll considering how much I rant.
If you have a problem with what he posts. I can’t imagine your opinion of mine being very different.

Are you serious? There is NO comparison. His rants are literally 20 times longer than your longest comment.

Anyway, I have never felt perturbed about your commentary for several reasons.

1. You are a young guy living it and figuring it out.
2. You are not one to jump on the “feral female” bandwagon.
3. You are not particularly political.
4. You don’t tell me what to write and how to run my blog.
5. I can imagine a young woman reading your commentary and wanting to talk to you about it.
6. You aim to construct, not destruct (especially HUS!)

I don’t mean to offend Ted, I’m being honest.

Ted D

JuTR – If I didn’t have children, I’d be right there with you and Just1Z. And honestly, when our youngest turns 18, I’m checking out of all this. The world will be theirs to deal with, and I’ll spend whatever days I have left finding and keeping some oasis of happiness, however I can manage. I’m seeing the wisdom in Mr. Wavevector’s approach: Do the absolute best you can to give your kids a head start in this mess, and bug out. I can’t do much, because there isn’t much in my power to change. If there is anger in me, this is primarily the cause. Knowing something is broken and not being able to fix it is frustrating, more so because my kids will be inheriting it.

I tend to have a soft spot for a few of the guys here (Cooper, INTJ, HanSolo) because frankly they are the type of man I hope my boys will become. To see them here, dealing with all this frustration and anguish scares me for my boys future. If I try to guide them to be like these men, they will find the same level of adversity. If I push them towards being selfish and self-serving, they will become more “cad” like, but have a better shot of success and happiness. The choice is between what’s right, and what will work. It’s truly sad that those two choices are at opposition.

Ted D

Susan – “Ted, I am tired of discussing this. Please let me know if I have made myself clear so that I can get back to writing a post.”

Clear.

Cooper – “If you have a problem with what he posts. I can’t imagine your opinion of mine being very different.”

Don’t take it that way man. I appreciate that you find common ground with me, but our perspective is different. You are in the thick of it, and I’m outside looking in. My angst is actually FOR you, and the other men in your position, because as I said above, I hope one day my boys are a great deal like you (at least as I know you from the ‘net. I mean, you could be a serial killer, but we think alike. LOL)

I’ll say the same to you I said to Just1Z – don’t go associating yourself with me simply because you think I make some sense. Nothing wrong with feeling that way, but no sense bringing bad mojo your way for it.

Just1Z

@TedD
“don’t go associating yourself with me simply because you think I make some sense.”

I associate with you because I understand where you’re coming from. If I had kids I would be in very much the same boat as you. If I were still married (without kids) I would also be doing what you plan to do when the last kid leaves the nest.

I see a good guy (with a somewhat clumsy manner at times (me too, but maybe a little less )) who cares about people and society, and hurts because he can’t fix it. I understand your stress. I have been called a very christian atheist by someone who knew me well at the time and was qualified to make the diagnosis. I care too (or I wouldn’t bother being here), but I try and cap my concerns at a level that doesn’t stress me out – that’s easier to do sans wife’n’kidz.

INTJ

@ Ted D

I’m not fearful for myself Susan. I have a mate and a family that love me. Even if the rest of the world hated my guts, they are all I need. (And queue the “oneitus” comments from the peanut gallery) My fear is based solely for my children. Because it enrages me that THIS is the world we left them. Not the world your children are in Susan, the world my children will be in. Despite sharing a name and government, I don’t believe it is very similar. To me, you and yours are behind the castle walls, not fully shielded, but at least protected by thick high walls and castle guards. My kids? We are the ones in the shanty town outside your gates, and when the horde comes charging, we’ll be the first to be tossed on the pile of dead. I don’t resent it, and I don’t begrudge it, but what is the most bothersome is that the folks on the inside of the castle don’t even care that the folks outside are going to be throwing themselves on pikes trying to survive, while the folks on the inside allow it to happen.

It goes back to the old Moynihan report, except this time it applies to all of lower class and lower middle class society, not just lower and lower middle class blacks.

Just1Z

Has anyone here read
Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Emil Frankl?
http://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl/dp/0807014273/

I’ve seen it mentioned in the manosphere (though it is not a male specific book as I understand it – he was a concentration camp survivor who became a celebrated psychiatrist). The reason that I ask is that maybe it addresses why certain people get hurt more badly than others in the SMP, MMP or society in general.

The first half of the book recounts some truly appalling experiences, and yet it’s amazingly inspirational because it tells of the bright light of human spirit that could not be extinguished by the camp guards. This book put a lot of things in perspective for me. The stresses and frustrations of modern day living are nothing compared to what Frankl and his fellow prisoners endured. Interestingly, it was the optimists who had the hardest time. As they held out for release at certain milestone dates and these passed, their spirit diminished, sometimes, tragically, to the point of death.

Frankl’s reflections on his experience are amazing, and his work to help others through Logotherapy is astounding. To have turned such an awful experience into such an effective form of therapy to help others shows, just as Frankl observed, that the human spirit is an incredible thing. Even from the very darkest treatment humankind can inflict on fellow human beings, some good has emerged. Whatever your religious or political views, this book is worthy reading. It doesn’t preach, it doesn’t get bogged down in psychiatric technicalities, it inspires.

perhaps it explains why the nice guys ‘n’ gals get hurt and those who are less optimistic about humanity are better placed for an easier life?

was thinking of buying a copy and wondered if anyone had any experience of the book. again, it isn’t a manosphere book, but one concerned about human issues.

INTJ

@ Susan

I respectfully request that you do not share or preach your view here, because it’s a total downer on a blog where young women who hope to be mothers someday seek positive and hopeful strategic support.

That, in a nutshell, is the key. Fundamentally speaking, HUS is still a female-oriented blog. Nothing wrong with that. But we males definitely need another platform which caters to male problems and male communication styles.

INTJ

@ Susan

Are you serious? There is NO comparison. His rants are literally 20 times longer than your longest comment.

Anyway, I have never felt perturbed about your commentary for several reasons.

See this is where it seems to be a problem of communication styles. Cause Cooper, Ted D, and I all say pretty much the exact same things. The only difference is that Cooper writes things in a tentative tone, which works for HUS. Whereas Ted D writes long and detailed but blunt posts, which gets you complaining about tl/dr. I write short and blunt posts without any of the detailed explanation that Ted D uses, which gets you and Megaman complaining about me shooting from the hip. But strip away the communication style, and we all are saying fundamentally the same thing!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

But strip away the communication style, and we all are saying fundamentally the same thing!

Could be. Vinegar vs. honey.

Where I see similarity is in your sexuality – which is clearly restricted. I obviously don’t have a problem with any of you feeling strongly about that.

I am much less tolerant of political manosphere memes, most of which are quite hostile to women, being spewed here. Ted does some of that. Cooper rarely if ever does. You do a bit of it with gross generalizations re the nature of women, most of which you seem to have gleaned from the sphere. (The circle jerk.)

Neither you nor Ted is in the habit of producing any kind of justification for your views, and both of you are usually trigger happy to shoot down the views of others.

Cooper is more rational in his approach.

Escoffier

So, Susan, this whole discussion reminds me of Hegel. Inorite? But bear with me.

Remember the essence of the historical dialectic: thesis=>antithesis=>synthesis.

“Thesis” in this case would be the “old regime”: early marriage, no sex before engagement at the earliest, maybe some going steady before that with kissing and not much else, far from uncommon to marry a HS sweetheart and quite common to marry a college GF/BF, women mostly staying home, kids born in her (and his) 20s.

“Antithesis” would be what we have now: late marriage, early sex, hook-ups, serial monogamy, FWB, ONSs, sex by date 3 or you’re gone, women not just in the workforce but earning more than men, kids in her 30s if then.

What you, Susan, are seeking it seems to me is “synthesis.” You take for granted that “we can’t go back.” But you also acknowledge that the current situation is terrible. What you want to do is dial back the worst aspects of the antithesis but preserve what you see as its genuine gains (including female education and workforce participation) while also reviving some of the positive aspects of the old thesis.

Maybe this is possible, maybe it isn’t. If it is, I would say that your “synthesis” takes too much from the antithesis and not enough from the thesis. For instance, in your response to me about the two forms of dating, I would say that you underplay the real dangers of normalizing “serial monogamy” before marriage as a “positive good” (to coin a phrase). These dangers include:

-higher N counts
-higher risk of disease
-increased heartbreak
-perpetuation/normalization of the de-linking of sex+love+marriage+children
-normalization of the idea that “relationships” and “love” are essentially finite in duration, which in turn undermines marriage.

Your own son, as I recall, has been with the same girl since age 17 and will marry her. In doing so, he has avoided all of the above. Now, if that were my son, I would be quite happy about the whole situation, assuming I thought the girl was right for him. So, I think it is possible to sketch the outlines of a synthesis that is closer to the thesis than the one you appear to want.

Whether it can be implemented society-wide, I have my doubts. The alternative is the broad civilizational collapse predicted by Vox, Roissy and others, after which the new “society” will revert to traditional family structures and sexual mores out of necessity.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@EScoffier

What you, Susan, are seeking it seems to me is “synthesis.” You take for granted that “we can’t go back.” But you also acknowledge that the current situation is terrible. What you want to do is dial back the worst aspects of the antithesis but preserve what you see as its genuine gains (including female education and workforce participation) while also reviving some of the positive aspects of the old thesis.

THAT’S IT! I think that there will be some kind of synthesis, the pendulum swinging back in some way, at least partly. I can’t control it though – I don’t think anyone can.

in your response to me about the two forms of dating, I would say that you underplay the real dangers of normalizing “serial monogamy” before marriage as a “positive good” (to coin a phrase).

I don’t disagree with your view of the negative aspects of delaying marriage, but I am not an idealist. I literally cannot fathom any way short of some kind of epidemic or Sharia law that will have women marrying at 20, foregoing education and career. Indeed, the economic climate makes the latter a necessity.

Your own son, as I recall, has been with the same girl since age 17 and will marry her. In doing so, he has avoided all of the above. Now, if that were my son, I would be quite happy about the whole situation, assuming I thought the girl was right for him. So, I think it is possible to sketch the outlines of a synthesis that is closer to the thesis than the one you appear to want.

Interestingly, they are moving in together in January, and he has told her that they cannot marry before three years. That will make them both 28.

I do think she’s great, and I’m delighted they are together, but I don’t kid myself – they are the only couple from their high school to still be together. It’s very, very rare, and in their case it did include a three-year breakup. Unlike most exes, though, they got back together after college. So it’s a happy ending, but also kind of a fluke. Not a prescription for society.

Lokland

@Esc

“So, Susan, this whole discussion reminds me of Hegel. Inorite? But bear with me.”

Is the synthesis/antithesis/thesis thing a historical concept?
If so where/ what do I search to find out more?

http://x OffTheCuff

Ted, I don’t read half of your posts half as much as I should like, and I like half of your posts half as much as you deserve.

Escoffier

I really don’t recommend reading Hegel at all but if you must, start here:

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-History-Dover-Philosophical-Classics/dp/0486437558/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354728464&sr=1-8

JuTR

Ted, it sounds real odd in these days, but the only way to do right and stay safe is to be celibate. It’s hard telling a young man that, it’s even harder to get them to understand that in a society saturated with sex positive messages and with every relationship starting with p in v.

I appreciate the dilemma you are in with your children, and it is one of the reasons that weighs against the decision to have children.

Escoffier

“Not a prescription for society” is an interesting comment because I can flip that around and say that, while yes, it is true that many people can survive hooking up, serial monogamy, ONSs and FWB and emerge unscathed, these are not good prescriptions for society either. In fact, it’s abundantly clear that the sexual revolution has done the least amount of damage (not NO damage, just the least) to the UMC and above while it has completely wreaked havoc on the lower orders.

BTW, if they’re going to move in together, I don’t see why they can’t get married.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

In fact, it’s abundantly clear that the sexual revolution has done the least amount of damage (not NO damage, just the least) to the UMC and above while it has completely wreaked havoc on the lower orders.

Agreed, but what actions or strategies would you actually implement to combat this, and how?

BTW, if they’re going to move in together, I don’t see why they can’t get married.

LOL, I knew you would say this.

I’m not privy to the details, I just heard her make a wisecrack about it. My guess is that he wants to feel more stable financially first, or that he does not see the need to marry until they are ready to have a family.

Cooper

@INTJ
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. All that seperates us is context, not so much content.

“But we males definitely need another platform which caters to male problems and male communication styles.”

I actually think that HUS’s primary female audience is vital to the discussion. I think an all male dialog would inevitably get out of hand, if not quickly. It’s here amongst a primary female audience that we keep ourselves in check. IOW, the mix is what’s important. It’s the “75%” of commenters from the sphere that make the mix. I think if we’re reversed, (ie primarily male oriented) we wouldn’t have so many female commenters. I don’t think we’d have nearly as many long time readers who come out of the woodworks to participate.

Escoffier

I can tell you how I think people ought to behave, what I can’t tell you is how to get them to do it. I am afraid that, in my considered opinion, it’s going to take the reimposition of harsh necessity, which will follow some kind of extremely unpleasant general collapse.

One thing that would help would be if nice, successful UMC parents made it clear that cohabitation is not acceptable and that, while grown children are free to do what they want, there is a cost in parental disapproval at the very least.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

One thing that would help would be if nice, successful UMC parents made it clear that cohabitation is not acceptable and that, while grown children are free to do what they want, there is a cost in parental disapproval at the very least.

Having been a Scarlet C Cohabitor myself, I neither disapprove nor would I exact a cost in any case.

Ted D

“I actually think that HUS’s primary female audience is vital to the discussion. I think an all male dialog would inevitably get out of hand, if not quickly. It’s here amongst a primary female audience that we keep ourselves in check”

Exactly. Or, more likely, it will become another ‘sphere echo chamber, because by and large women simply DO NOT want to even engage in this conversation. And why should they? As it stands they have most of the advantage at this point.

It is indeed the contrast of ideas that make conversations here productive. Nothing good can be accomplished if a bunch of like minded people simply sit around chatting with each other. If there is any common ground to be found, it will HAVE to be found by both sides: men and women.

Take note of the current “fiscal cliff” circus I can’t avoid hearing/reading about. Both sides are unwilling to compromise, and the result will be failure. Seems like U.S. politics and whatever we want to call the current SMP/MMP situation have a lot in common.

Jackie

@Escoffier

Esco, didn’t you say that your wife was the one who had to bring up marriage, when you received a job offer that involved relocation? (Apologies if I’m remembering incorrectly.)

That she wouldn’t go unless you were actually married, and you had a courthouse wedding (and a big swanky one later)?

Jackie

@Susan

I think it’s awesome your son has found the right woman, even as a teenager. I wish everyone could be that lucky.

I would not want to encroach upon his privacy. (Having my dad discuss my life in front of people at a recent reception was more than enough, thanks!)

Didn’t you mention his GF is from an extremely strict Asian family? If Lokland is around, I would be really interested in his wife’s family response to living together, as it sounds like she was in the same situation. The Asian families I know are so conservative I wonder how this will play out, culturally.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Jackie

Didn’t you mention his GF is from an extremely strict Asian family? If Lokland is around, I would be really interested in his wife’s family response to living together, as it sounds like she was in the same situation. The Asian families I know are so conservative I wonder how this will play out, culturally.

Yes, her parents are from Hong Kong. Interestingly, they were very displeased if and when she spent the night with him at his place. (She lives with them.) She was very surprised when she sat them down to tell them about the apartment – they approved. I think they perceive that this is a step toward marriage to the “round eye” “white devil.”

deti

“I am afraid that, in my considered opinion, it’s going to take the reimposition of harsh necessity, which will follow some kind of extremely unpleasant general collapse.”

I would have to agree with this. Sometimes I think a small amount of necessity might push things in the right direction. Family lawyers are always noting a falloff in divorces when economic times are tough; but those have not been long-lasting effects.

The conditions that seemed to keep Marriage 1.0 in check were
1. Marriage was the only acceptable venue for sex. If a respectable man wants sex, he’s gotta wife it up.
2. Sex has consequences, including pregnancy and subsequent shotgun marriage. Daughter, if you’re gonna sex him, be prepared to have his babies. Son, if you’re gonna sex her, be prepared to walk down the aisle and write the checks.
3. Extramarital sex has consequences, including diseases, branding as a slut or a scoundrel, family dishonor and shame, and possibly the inability to marry.
4. You have responsibilities not only to yourself, but to your family and society.
5. Son, if you don’t marry, there is no acceptable way for you to get sex; and you’ve already figured out that most women don’t want to sex you. Daughter, if you don’t marry, you’ll have to support yourself and you’ll live alone with no help.
6. A society that reinforced all of the above.

Those are long gone, but they were born of necessity, a more constricted standard of living, and a greater sense of obligation to one’s extended family and society at large. Now, one’s allegiances are solely to oneself. Our society truly feels most days like “every man for himself”, everyone is a potential adversary; no one is to be fully trusted.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

Now, one’s allegiances are solely to oneself. Our society truly feels most days like “every man for himself”, everyone is a potential adversary; no one is to be fully trusted.

I agree. Is it any wonder that so many people are lonely and in pain? We cower in fear of receiving more pain, even as we knowingly or unknowingly inflict it on others!

Someone has to blink first. I’ve already said I think women should do so by taking more risks to convey attraction and interest up front. The problem is, as much as we dislike the effects of feminism, future mating must reflect the end of chivalry.

Now I am being touted as some kind of exemplar on how to comport oneself here?!

Why are you surprised? I’ve told you this before. I explained why and set up a nice little “compare and contrast” for everyone.

That doesn’t mean you don’t drive me crazy sometimes, and that there won’t be times when you don’t “feel the love.” I’d like to think you are a good example of disagreement being fine, even more than fine. The way we say things makes a great difference, and I know I am far from perfect on that score myself.

deti

“deti is the diplomat”

Now I am being touted as some kind of exemplar on how to comport oneself here?!

L. O. Freakin’. L.

Escoffier

Well, Susan, then–in this instance and to that extent–you are part of the problem. You can’t re-moralize society without reinstituting norms, which in turn requires some directly expressed disapproval.

I assume you would openly disppprove of either of your children having a kid out of wedlock. So it’s not that you are incapable of dissaproval but that you draw the line too far to the left of where it needs to be.

And that’s why your synthesis isn’t going to work for anyone outside the UMC, and not even for all of them. The UMC will be the last to fall into outright rampant hedonism and immorality but eventually they will fall, when generation after generation has been taught that there is no deeper meaning to life nor any moral or natural constraints on their behavior beyond not deliberately drawing blood from someone who didn’t hit first.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

Well, Susan, then–in this instance and to that extent–you are part of the problem. You can’t re-moralize society without reinstituting norms, which in turn requires some directly expressed disapproval.

We’ve been over this. My goal is not to re-moralize society. I aim for something on a much, much smaller scale.

I assume you would openly disppprove of either of your children having a kid out of wedlock. So it’s not that you are incapable of dissaproval but that you draw the line too far to the left of where it needs to be.

It would depend. I would not be happy if one of my children planned to have a child without being married. If pregnancy occurred accidentally, I might wish for a different outcome, but I would not disapprove. I think we’re getting hung up on the word disapprove here. My kids are adults in their 20s. I have raised them to hold our values. At this point, I don’t feel that parental disapproval would be particularly useful or appropriate.

And that’s why your synthesis isn’t going to work for anyone outside the UMC, and not even for all of them.

And that’s why I say we’re on the Titanic, and I’ll be blogging it live if anyone wants to grab a deck chair.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Jackie,
LOL those religious hypocrites get under your skin, don’t they? They really used to bug me too; in fact I had an entire blog (xanga anyone?) devoted to calling them out in high school, complete with scripture (I used to be a lot more religious than I am now, but was never a fire/brimstone type).

For whatever reason, the prodigal son always stuck out to me as one of the prominent parables (we used to act it out in youth group). Over time, I think I’ve learned that when it comes to religion, you have to sort of go in with blinders, worry about your own behavior and not the behavior of those around you, even if they’re screaming scripture in your face. I’ll always be a little sensitive to Firey McBrimstones, but I realize that if whatever they’re doing works for them, who am I to knock it? It’s not my business, and if it bugs me so much, maybe that says more about me than it does about them.

deti

Agreed, but what actions or strategies would you actually implement to combat this (SMP damage to classes below the UMC), and how?

I have some, but you won’t like them.

Our society now has moved further and further toward a socialist state, in which the state assumes more and more responsibility for the individual. Individuals are not responsible for themselves or their behaviors, simply because they do not have to be.

Those in the UMC are insulated from most adverse effects of the SMP because they have the education, savvy and moxie to know how best to evade those consequences. If the consequences somehow catch up to them, they have the money, power, influence and connections to deal with the consequence, avoid it, or foist the cost onto someone or something else.

If we wanted to combat the damage, we might start with:

1. Removal of government help for unwed mothers unless the mother is an orphan or is in imminent danger of harm if she lives with her parents.
2. Wholesale overhaul of divorce laws, removing divorce incentives.
3. Individuals, both men and women, need something more to live for than simply themselves and their own short term interests. An education, a career, money, video games, parties and poon don’t cut it. If they did, this blog and the manosphere wouldn’t exist.
4. Most of the women need to learn contentedness with their circumstance, with their men/husbands, with their stations in life.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Deti

If we wanted to combat the damage, we might start with:

1. Removal of government help for unwed mothers unless the mother is an orphan or is in imminent danger of harm if she lives with her parents.
2. Wholesale overhaul of divorce laws, removing divorce incentives.
3. Individuals, both men and women, need something more to live for than simply themselves and their own short term interests. An education, a career, money, video games, parties and poon don’t cut it. If they did, this blog and the manosphere wouldn’t exist.
4. Most of the women need to learn contentedness with their circumstance, with their men/husbands, with their stations in life.

1. Is there government help specifically for unwed mothers, or just for men or women below the poverty level? This makes a big difference. I would agree that special subsidies incentivizing OOW births should be removed.

2. I’m all for equity in divorce laws. What divorce incentives would you remove? Are you saying that you would make it difficult to obtain divorce? Or are you talking about alimony?

3. I agree here, but how would you implement change?

4. This seems tied in to expectations, which are promoted by the culture and by parents of daughters. Wouldn’t this take care of itself via trial and error? Women will find that continued discontentedness is not a fulfilling way to live? Or perhaps younger women will learn the lessons of hypergamy, for example, by watching the generation ahead of them.

Escoffier

Parental disapproval matters a lot, and it certainly matters to society at large.

What happens today is that most parents simply go with the flow, and they also think about the cost TO THEMSELVES about expressing disapproval. What if my daughter starts visiting less? What if she doesn’t let me see my illegitimate grandson because I expressed disapproval? Can’t have that!

So, for fundamentally selfish reasons, people not only refrain from making or expressing judgements, they not only pretend that nothing wrong has happened, but some even go on the attack at the suggestion that their precious children could be wrong.

And the downward spiral continues.

The thought of my parents finding out I was co-habitating made me sweat bullets. Luckily it never came to that.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

The thought of my parents finding out I was co-habitating made me sweat bullets. Luckily it never came to that.

Wait, you lived with someone before marriage? So it’s “do as I say, not as I do?”

What happens today is that most parents simply go with the flow, and they also think about the cost TO THEMSELVES about expressing disapproval. What if my daughter starts visiting less? What if she doesn’t let me see my illegitimate grandson because I expressed disapproval? Can’t have that!

What purpose does disapproval serve once the child is a reality? What do you think you will accomplish for society by becoming estranged from your own flesh and blood? I know parents who no longer speak to their own children because they disapprove of them and have communicated that freely. Not only did their children not respond in the way they’d hoped, they did withdraw from their lives. It’s tragic.

Passer_By

“Well, Susan, then–in this instance and to that extent–you are part of the problem. You can’t re-moralize society without reinstituting norms, which in turn requires some directly expressed disapproval.”

While I’m sure that you’ll have Aristotelian reason to disagree, I believe most moral codes of the type you are suggesting are borne out of the need to avoid bad consequences. Sex out of wedlock was undoubtedly condemned as sinful and immoral in major religions because of the obvious consequences of fatherless children and destitute mothers. You can’t bring back those moral codes without the consequences. Your desire to set up a societal shaming network won’t do it. Having kids out of wedlock stopped being taboo in the lower classes as a consequence of the mothers becoming able to shift a substantial portion of the cost to others (the father, the state, the church, etc.). It’s still considered somewhat taboo (as well as prole) in the UMC because the amount of cost that can be shifted does not approach the cost of having the child out of wedlock for a UMC woman. Don’t worry, though, I’m sure feminists are working diligently to change that.

Escoffier

Well I have said that remoralization will occur, if it does occur, only when necessity requires it. I don’t really see any other way. I am only saying to Susan that her desire to roll back some of the worst aspects of today’s SMP, while always running as fast as she can from any discussion of morality, isn’t going to work. I do believe that a little use of moral language from her (and others) could probably help on the margins. It won’t save society but if this blog has taught me anything it’s that some younger people of both sexes who are disatisfied with this SMP are receptive to a moral message about sex and I think that message is more effective and powerful with them than mere utilitarianism.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Escoffier

if this blog has taught me anything it’s that some younger people of both sexes who are disatisfied with this SMP are receptive to a moral message about sex

I’m curious, how so?

I am only saying to Susan that her desire to roll back some of the worst aspects of today’s SMP, while always running as fast as she can from any discussion of morality, isn’t going to work.

I don’t think of it as rolling back, in part because some of the norms of the SMP are built on a house of cards. If we can kick that out from under, elements of it will collapse on their own. That is already happening as we discover that contrary to earlier impressions, most girls don’t pursue casual sex. The culture of casual sex is much larger than life.

JP

@Escoffier:

“Well I have said that remoralization will occur, if it does occur, only when necessity requires it. I don’t really see any other way.”

That’s not how culture works.

Culture is drive by (so-called) spiritual awakenings, not necessity.

We’re at the materialist-individualistic perigee of the most recent wave.

You’re putting the cart before the horse.

deti

I would remove incentives for OOW births.

I would make it more difficult to obtain divorce. One state I have heard of still has no fault but requires a 2 year trial separation. I would severely restrict alimony/spousal support in all cases, require child support recipients to account for how the money is spent, and allow liberal revision and review of child support orders.

I don’t know what to do to get men to conclude there is more to live for than booze, babes and videogames. I don’t know what you do to get women to conclude there’s more to life than career, bling and Brad Pitt. You’re not going to get men to care about ethics when there’s nothing in it for them. You’re not going to get women to marry unattractive betas when their survival doesn’t depend on it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

I would remove incentives for OOW births.

Isn’t that what Bill Clinton did with welfare reform? I recall that is how it was described at the time? What incentives are these?

I would make it more difficult to obtain divorce. One state I have heard of still has no fault but requires a 2 year trial separation. I would severely restrict alimony/spousal support in all cases, require child support recipients to account for how the money is spent, and allow liberal revision and review of child support orders.

I’m mostly with you on this. I think that re alimony, it’s got to depend on the choices the couple made about parenting. If the couple agreed to a woman’s being a SAHM, she may need some short-term support while getting back into the workforce. And of course there are older women who married and became housewives – alimony will need to be phased out to account for the pre-feminism women.

I cosign a waiting period or trial separation of a couple of years.

I cosign accountability on child support, and review of agreements at either parent’s request at any time.

You’re not going to get women to marry unattractive betas when their survival doesn’t depend on it.

Well, the numbers would indicate that many women with careers of their own have married betas. No other scenario works. I’ll assume that the attractiveness level of those men is similar to the women they marry, which is what the research shows about assortative mating and marriage, at least among those with more than a HS education.

If you mean that women won’t marry men they find unattractive unless they are forced to in order to survive, I’ll agree with that. I think you’d have to go pretty far back to find that as a norm – The Enlightenment and then the Industrial Revolution ennobled love as a requirement for marriage.

JuTR

A quick anecdote, on the out of wedlock issue.

My youngest brother met his wife while he was working security at a country/western themed bar when she was out playing pool with a girlfriend. She’s a sweet girl, very attractive, and she had a good job at a mortgage company.

He is restricted, a one-girl-type-of-guy, handsome, and a good guy. He’d had a couple relationships that didn’t work out, but he always saw the more positive traits from women, which encouraged him and helped him find someone he liked.

I remember him after they first met, he was smitten, but wary of expecting too much. Luckily, it turned out that they had a lot in common, and they dated for over a year before he proposed. They had year engagement, planned, but, a pregnancy occurred. They talked, communicated their desires and concerns, and made a decision together to postpone the wedding. They wanted children, but this was a little unexpected.

Yes, there was some parental disapproval, but the reality was that a wedding around the time of a pregnancy was just too much for them to absorb as a couple, and so they faced the reality together, and made the right decision. The parents eventually understood, and supported them.

My nephew was born on my Father’s birthday, after 23 hours of labor, delivered at 11:46 PM, as my sister-in-law really wanted to give my Dad a grandson (his first) as a gift.

Life is complex. Neither of them planned to have a child out of wedlock. That being said, with their plans, abortion was not an option, and I think a smaller social stigma made the decision easier.

What is the better option? A run to the town office for a certificate to feel better about the situation and avoid disappointing the parents? Or saying, ‘You know, to hell with expectations, we need to do what is right for us and our newborn?’ For all intents and purposes, they were married and committed. Government sanction could wait.

I’ll admit I’m one to judge the societal scourge of out of wedlock children, but on an individual scale, sometimes, it is the right decision.

They are still married, though not without stresses. They are well supported with family, and have better stability, and now they are starting to try for another child.

So, let’s not push Susan into making some final moral decision on hypothetical situations. Her daughters might get into a situation where Susan might not be fully approving, but to ensure success, she will have to support the decision.

JP

“I would make it more difficult to obtain divorce. ”

Isn’t some of the problem that marriage is so easy?

Look at Las Vegas. A drunk drive-in wedding is considered valid and binding.

This is completely incoherent.

JP

” Is there government help specifically for unwed mothers, or just for men or women below the poverty level? ”

Unwed mothers only for medicaid. Want healthcare? Have a kid.

Men are tossed onto the the scrapheap, which makes the men grunty. I know, I deal with this problem on a regular basis.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Unwed mothers only for medicaid. Want healthcare? Have a kid.

Men are tossed onto the the scrapheap, which makes the men grunty. I know, I deal with this problem on a regular basis.

OK, I’m all for getting rid of that. What will that save the taxpayers? Cliff schmiff.

Escoffier

re: “do as I say, not as I do?” well, supposing I had but later changed my mind. Am I supposed to say forever, “Since I did this, I can never say a word against it”? I mean, if a kid shoplifts once, is he forever barred from speaking out against theft?

The purpose of expressing disapproval of what should be disapproved of is to that people get the message that they ought to behave in certain ways and ought not behave in other ways. If we let everything slide for the sake of expediency, we’ll get a lot more bad behavior, which in fact we are seeing all through the culture.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The purpose of expressing disapproval of what should be disapproved of is to that people get the message that they ought to behave in certain ways and ought not behave in other ways. If we let everything slide for the sake of expediency, we’ll get a lot more bad behavior, which in fact we are seeing all through the culture.

But I did raise my children with disapproval for what I considered bad behavior and wrong choices. To this day, neither one of them can bear to think that my husband or I disapproves of them. “I’m disappointed in you” is profoundly upsetting for them to hear. It’s just that you and I don’t share the same values. I spoke to my kids about sex when they were teens assuming they might be having it soon. I told them what I thought the conditions for that should be, and that included a loving relationship and safe sex practices to prevent pregnancy and disease.

I loved living with my husband before we got married. It was awesome, and very efficient in every way, including financially. Highly recommended for those who know they intend to marry.

Escoffier

Re: morality, Susan, I read lots of people here who are very young show that they are recpetive to moral messages and who will speak openly about this or that being immoral, i.e., not merely harmful to oneself or others. There is this notion that everyone under 30 is a total social libertarian but from what I read here that’s not so. No doubt there’s selection bias involved, in that your readers are more likely to be people already uneasy about casual sex, but it’s encouraging nonetheless.

https://en.gravatar.com/jimbocollins Megaman

@SW

Neither you nor Ted is in the habit of producing any kind of justification for your views, and both of you are usually trigger happy to shoot down the views of others.

I appreciate Ted because I know exactly where he’s coming from, and he expresses himself clearly, if sometimes overlong. He’ll answer a question or clarify something very readily. I don’t happen to agree all of the time, but *that’s the difference*. He’s pleasant to discuss things with.

Given his take on gov’t data, though, I don’t think I could convince him the Moon landing occurred.

Escoffier

Susan, there’s also WIC, plus all the regular forms of welfare–section 8, food stamps and so on–that are not specifically targeted to women but from which single mothers obviously benefit. Just try excluding single mothers from those and see how far you get.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Susan, there’s also WIC, plus all the regular forms of welfare–section 8, food stamps and so on–that are not specifically targeted to women but from which single mothers obviously benefit. Just try excluding single mothers from those and see how far you get.

Obviously, that’s a non-starter, so how practical is the suggestion that we remove all the incentives for single motherhood as a solution to our SMP woes?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

JP,

Unwed mothers only for medicaid. Want healthcare? Have a kid.

I know you’re a lawyer, but is this true? Last time I checked, in order to be on medicaid as an adult, you had to fall under a specific category. Is “single mother” a legitimate category? Could you point me to the specific category in the legislation?

JP

“Last time I checked, in order to be on medicaid as an adult, you had to fall under a specific category. Is “single mother” a legitimate category?”

It’s not single mother, it’s often “adult with child in your care”.

In most cases, this is the single mother.

Medicaid varies from state to state, I think.

You only get pregnancy Medicaid until you actually have the child and then can get full Medicaid.

deti

“If you mean that women won’t marry men they find unattractive unless they are forced to in order to survive, I’ll agree with that. I think you’d have to go pretty far back to find that as a norm – The Enlightenment and then the Industrial Revolution ennobled love as a requirement for marriage.”

Well, yes, and the current situation is love, hotness and a Lexus are requirements for marriage.

We need to get back to compromise. Women need to do things to demonstrate that they are good marriage risks. One way they might be able to do that, which I’ve said over and over, is to accept that they simply won’t get everything they want in a husband. He’s going to let you down, that he has flaws, that there will be things you don’t like about him and can’t change about him, and you will have to find ways to live with it.

Another way is to look for a husband at an early age and lock him down early.

It’s been said men need to ramp up their attractiveness. Slumlord has a point that there are a lot of unattractive men out there. And too many men are asking what I believe to be valid questions: Why? Why should I work to ramp up my attractiveness? What’s in it for me? With a 50% divorce rate, the risk and the time/effort outlay isn’t worth the reward. I don’t want to be, and I won’t ever be, a PUA. I can’t seem to generate attraction from attractive women at all. I earn good money and have a good job, I have my own place, but the only women who seem interested are either physically unattractive, or sluts, or gold-diggers, or some combination thereof.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

Well, yes, and the current situation is love, hotness and a Lexus are requirements for marriage.

How can this be true, when most men are average, and most men get married? Aren’t you focusing on the “top women” and what they want? Because I agree that the highest SMV will want those things and more. And of course some lesser SMV women will think they are top SMV women, and will come up empty. But these are likely the ones who have had frequent casual encounters.

One way they might be able to do that, which I’ve said over and over, is to accept that they simply won’t get everything they want in a husband. He’s going to let you down, that he has flaws, that there will be things you don’t like about him and can’t change about him, and you will have to find ways to live with it.

This is very true, but don’t most happily married people learn to work around these? I’ve got my pet peeves and I’m sure Mr. HUS does too. They just don’t rise to the level of a big deal. I think it depends a lot on what the flaws are. Drinks too much? That’s a big problem. Keeps getting fired for having a temper at work (I know someone whose husband keeps doing this)? Huge problem. Has an eye for the ladies? Not OK. I think there are some things men and women can get used to and others not so much. Does she keep running up debt on the credit cards? Is she negligent in her care of the kids? Does she refuse to have sex? These are serious problems, I wouldn’t blame anyone for balking at them.

I have my own place, but the only women who seem interested are either physically unattractive, or sluts, or gold-diggers, or some combination thereof.

You just said these men are unattractive, what do they expect? If they don’t like what’s on offer, they’re certainly not obligated to marry. They’re making a choice. Why the need to complain about it?

A Definite Beta Guy

Ted,

I think you’ll do fine by your kids.

I received absolutely no instruction on girls whatsoever. My family was anti-fashion, anti-exercise (except sports and manual labor), anti-heating healthy, etc.

They were also absurdly stupid. Absurdly fucking stupid. I told them I was depressed and they thought the correct response was to yell at me and tell me that suicidal people are bad people, all cowards, and probably should kill themselves anyways.

This did not help, needless to say.

I tried to write more, but I started crying. They were great parents in some ways, in others profound failures, and my brother and I scraped into adulthood by the skin of our teeth.

But I have a decent job now, a nice SO, am happy most days, etc. I am by no means a casanova, but my presence for the girls improved greatly once I started liking myself, acted less awkward, dressed better, and used some very basic game.

You’ll do fine by your kids.

deti

Susan:

Another thing, since you seem to have run Ted off:

This problem is a Mexican standoff. It’s becoming increasingly insoluble, with good arguments on both sides. Men are still marrying but are oblivious to the great risk. The age of first marriage for men and women is increasing and it’s not showing any signs of reversing.

Women are digging in their heels, saying “No compromise. No marriage until I’m damn good and ready, and I don’t want to get married now because what if a better guy comes along? I want to get my degree and get financially independent and date around and have premarital sex if I want to. And I want to marry the best man I can get.” Hard to argue with that. Why should she marry someone she doesn’t love or isn’t attracted to?

Men are digging in their heels, saying “I have no incentives to make myself more attractive when the women I can pull are not attractive, and the women I find attractive won’t even talk to me, much less sex me. Why should I wait around for the women I do want to finally decide they will date and have sex with me only after they could not secure commitment from a more attractive man? And once I do get a little something for myself, why should I share it with such a woman?” Hard to argue with that too. Why should he wait around for something that might never happen, and then if the stars do align for him, why should he share any of it?

Why not do away with all this from the outset, and start having both sides compromise and give up a little to get something more?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Another thing, since you seem to have run Ted off:

Awwww, deti, why’d you have to go and get snarky after I told everyone what a delightful guy you are?

Ted is very welcome here provided his aim is not to de-HUS my readers. I really don’t think that’s asking too much. And I’m not asking anything I don’t expect of myself. I would never regularly go to someone else’s blog with the goal of discrediting them. That’s basically the definition of trolling, though I do not think of Ted that way.

Why not do away with all this from the outset, and start having both sides compromise and give up a little to get something more?

How? It’s a goal I can endorse, but I have no earthly idea how to get that ball rolling.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

It’s not single mother, it’s often “adult with child in your care”.

Huh, this blows my mind. It must not be part of medicaid in PA, because I used to help determine whether my clients were eligible for medicaid, and we almost NEVER helped adults apply, since the vast majority were not eligible.

What state are you in, if you don’t mind my asking?

Also, do you know the income limits for that category? Most of the adult income limits are fairly low, as far as I know.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Deti,
Question: do you believe that all premarital sex is unacceptable, even as part of LTRs (and by that, I mean LTRs that are headed towards marriage)?

JP

PA doens’t have single mother welfare.

I’m in NC at the moment (although quite licensed to practice in PA, being that I worked in Harrisburg for years).

The limits are fairly low, but normally the earned income is zero.

It’s the Medicaid/Section 8/Food Stamp/Child Support combo that seems to work the best.

deti

“I loved living with my husband before we got married. It was awesome, and very efficient in every way, including financially. Highly recommended for those who know they intend to marry.”

I would not recommend cohabitation unless the two are engaged, formally, with a firm wedding date set no more than six months in the future. Too risky otherwise. And I sure wouldn’t make major purchases or any lengthy, joint financial commitments until marriage.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I would not recommend cohabitation unless the two are engaged, formally, with a firm wedding date set no more than six months in the future. Too risky otherwise.

What is the risk of cohabitation, in your view? We did not get engaged until we’d lived together for six months, and then we got married a full year later. I don’t believe either of us ever felt exposed to risk.

And I sure wouldn’t make major purchases or any lengthy, joint financial commitments until marriage.

LOL, I remember my boss was alarmed that we had a joint checking account. But we put all our resources in one combined pot from the minute we started dating. He had the better deal for 7 years. I happily paid his student loans for a while. We also bought furniture together to furnish our apartment. We were pretty strapped for cash, but NY is actually a great city to be in when you’re broke, contrary to public opinion.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

It’s the Medicaid/Section 8/Food Stamp/Child Support combo that seems to work the best.

Doesn’t child support count as earned income? I think it does in PA…

JP

The child support is normally sporadic and limited.

Generally under $1,000 a month from what I see, which gives them health care.

Sometimes they get their children on SSI disability and get some cash for ADHD. I don’t do child SSI cases.

There isn’t enough Section 8 housing in NC from what I see. Lots of homelessness and couch surfing.

I don’t work for Legal Aid, so I don’t know the overall picture, just what I deal with (disabled people, who have zero income because they aren’t working).

JP

@Olive:

Here’s a chart for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.ncdhhs.gov/dma/medicaid/families.htm

deti

“do you believe that all premarital sex is unacceptable, even as part of LTRs (and by that, I mean LTRs that are headed towards marriage)?”

What do you mean by “unacceptable”? If we’re talking biblically, yes.

If we’re talking practically, no. I’m not going to disown deti jr. or detiette for sleeping with their fiance or fiancees, even if I don’t like it and disapprove of it. It’s a bad idea, but if they are going to get married presumably a lot of that sexual attraction and compatibility has been tested and safety valves released a few times.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

deti jr. or detiette

LOL, I think deti may have been the originator of HUSsies.

J

Yes, Ana, that is indeed our Vox. Sometime ago, a commenter referred to Vox as a “famed internet crank.” This prompted me to google him. If you start with the Wiki article on him and work back from the sources it quotes a very interesting character emerges.

INTJ

@ JP

Look at Las Vegas. A drunk drive-in wedding is considered valid and binding.

Not if they’re drunk. That’s an urban myth.

INTJ

@ J

Yes, Ana, that is indeed our Vox. Sometime ago, a commenter referred to Vox as a “famed internet crank.” This prompted me to google him. If you start with the Wiki article on him and work back from the sources it quotes a very interesting character emerges.

Yup. Just reading a few of Vox’s more notorious posts is sufficient to get a read on his character.

JP

@J:

Reading over some of Vox’s stuff, it sounds kind of like Greer’s Archdruid’s argument, but with shrill rhetoric as opposed to Greer’s American imperial decline analysis, tracing the problem back to the Mexican War and assuming that the U.S. has already entered imperial decline and may quite possibly disintegrate as a political unit into smaller entities (he’s a peak oiler and loves druidry – I think he also has asperger’s syndrome):

“As the United States faces the end of its overseas empire and the drastic contraction of an economy long inflated by imperial tribute, in other words, it faces a massive difficulty much closer to home: a proud and populous nation on its southern border, with a vibrant culture but disintegrating political institutions, emergent warbands of the classic type, a large and growing demographic presence inside US borders, and a burning sense of resentment directed squarely at the United States. This is not a recipe for a peaceful imperial decline.

…

I would also like to ask any of my readers who are incensed by the above to stop, take a deep breath, and pay attention to what is and is not being said here. Again, the shrill rhetoric of moral judgment that treats every political question as an opportunity for self-righteous indignation, popular as it is, has no particular value in this context. More than a century and a half ago, American politicians decided to go to war with Mexico; over the next century or so, as a result of that decision and its cascading consequences, the social order basic to any viable society will most likely be shredded over a sizable part of what is now the United States, and stay that way for a good long time. That’s simply one of the things that can happen when an empire falls, and it’s something many of us can expect to see here in America in the years ahead.”

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2012/11/on-border.html

Jackie

@deti

Deti, from what you’ve mentioned here, you were (ostensibly) a Christian who had lots of premarital sex, tried to spin plates (date multiple women) and cheated on a partner.

How are you going to talk to your kids? Will you tell them the truth, or “don’t do what I did”?

I can tell you, if my dad had that history and tried to preach to me as a teen, I would shut down so fast it would make your head spin. Especially with the Biblical stuff.

The choice for me to wait for a husband is based mostly on the fact that my mom NEVER used Biblical arguments on me. In fact she started talking about it young– 12 or so? And assumed that I probably would, and started a conversation.

(Now it’s hilarious to think of me at the time, drawing myself up all outraged, “How can you think this will EVER happen?!?!111″)

The point is, respect went so much further than “do as I say, not as I did.” I would have gone a MUCH different route if there was preaching involved, btw.

Passer_By

@ana
“Is this our VD”

Maybe your’s. Antibiotics cleared mine up pretty quickly.

A Definite Beta Guy

Who is this Mark from “Denialism” and why am I supposed to care what he thinks?

deti

Jackie:

I’m not so far removed from my adolescence and young adulthood that I am oblivious to the fact that fire and brimstone is not very persuasive. I don’t lie about things when the kids ask the hard questions. And the talks detiette is starting to hear are quite different from those deti jr. is getting. If you want to hear the talk detiette gets, it sounds something like the one Roosh gave his younger sister. Go to Rooshv.com and look for that. It’s a good read.

Without getting into any detail, my wife and I are living, breathing testaments to the bad things that can happen with premarital sex.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

What do you mean by “unacceptable”? If we’re talking biblically, yes.

Nah, not everyone is a Christian.

If we’re talking practically, no. I’m not going to disown deti jr. or detiette for sleeping with their fiance or fiancees, even if I don’t like it and disapprove of it. It’s a bad idea

Interesting. What makes it a bad idea, from a practical standpoint? And, assuming that I’m not religious and wouldn’t want to be part of a religious community, what advantage would I have in waiting until marriage? Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?

Passer_By

@olive
“Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?”

Let me answer that instead of Deti. Yes. Yes, they would.

deti

“What makes it a bad idea, from a practical standpoint?”

Because the commitment ain’t there till the papers are signed. Don’t you want to lock in commitment from a good man?

“what advantage would I have in waiting until marriage? Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?”

The advantage is for women, not men. Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.

1. No STDs or dangers thereof.
2. No bonding to men other than your husband.
3. You’ve given your husband a great gift. He knows he’s #1.
4. You’ve shown yourself to be a woman of great value and discipline.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.

From no premarital sex? I think that would qualify a tiny fraction of the male population as “good.” Honestly, I have never met a man who was willing to wait – in my whole life. Granted, I have not been in religious communities, but they don’t rack up the anal sex numbers for nuthin.

I had two sorority sisters who waited and were divorced within a year because there was no marital sex. One guy couldn’t bring himself to “violate” his wife, and the other had chronic ED, even at 24. I would not even dream of marrying or expecting my kids to marry someone they hadn’t taken for a test drive, at the very least. I think sexual compatibility is a key predictor of marital happiness.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

No bonding to men other than your husband.

In ancestral times, it is believed humans were serially monogamous in 4-7 years periods. Pair-bonding presumably occurred in each relationship. I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.” Pair-bonding = falling in love, and we know that people can do that multiple times, regardless of whether they are having sex.

JP

@Susan:

“You just said these men are unattractive, what do they expect? If they don’t like what’s on offer, they’re certainly not obligated to marry. They’re making a choice. Why the need to complain about it?”

I remember it being explained to me in college that the way you interacted in adult life was generally as a couple.

No couplehood, no normal adult life.

That was some of the thinking back in the 1990s at least at a state school.

JP

“3. You’ve given your husband a great gift. He knows he’s #1.”

I think the point is that people aren’t getting married until they’re 30, so this is kind of inconsistent with social reality.

I mean, if your wife was 27 when you *first* met her that’s kind of an odd thing to expect.

INTJ

@ Olive

Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?

I think in his old Mormon days, HanSolo would have run away from you unless you waited until marriage… But Mormons are the exceptions that prove the norms.

Personally though, I wouldn’t mind signing the contract and getting married prior to having sex if that is what she wants… Note however that I don’t wish to wait on sex until we’re ready to be married. Rather, I’m willing to marry when I want to have sex.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Note however that I don’t wish to wait on sex until we’re ready to be married. Rather, I’m willing to marry when I want to have sex.

Haha, I love this. Very honest and quite reasonable!

Jackie

@deti

I appreciate your honesty and avoiding the fire-n-brimstone. I think that’s really great, deti.

I just read the letter from “Roosh” to his younger sister. Interesting how none of it included self-respect or responsibility, just a lot of blaming, fear-mongering and bad behavior. Yes, he told her to make a guy wait, but no other words on creating a healthy relationship. (I realize he probably doesn’t know how.)

I would be interested, too, to know more about the family dynamics.

But, really, I’d rather hear her thoughts, especially on being the sister of a guy who lives in the basement and turns other girls into “petri dishes.”

J

Yup. Just reading a few of Vox’s more notorious posts is sufficient to get a read on his character.

LOL. An interesting man, with an interesting background as well.

Lokland

@J

“This prompted me to google him. If you start with the Wiki article on him and work back from the sources it quotes a very interesting character emerges.”

Elaboration please.

Jackie

@deti

“what advantage would I have in waiting until marriage? Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?”

The advantage is for women, not men. Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.”
===
deti, I have had professed Christian guys dump me over this. Maybe SayWhaat can chime in, but I would add something in that she needs to be okay with getting a lot of dumping and rejection. And not take it personally.

SayWhaat

The advantage is for women, not men. Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.

Outside of a religious community, this is not true. Even my boyfriend had doubts about me due to my lack of experience.

deti

“These are serious problems, I wouldn’t blame anyone for balking at them.”

Of course. I’m talking about minor problems.

“You just said these men are unattractive, what do they expect? If they don’t like what’s on offer, they’re certainly not obligated to marry. They’re making a choice. Why the need to complain about it?”

Not complaining. I’m explaining why a lot of men are asking the valid rhetorical question “why improve myself when there’s nothing in it for me?”

Lokland

@PB

“Maybe your’s. Antibiotics cleared mine up pretty quickly.”

Thank you I needed to laugh.

Jackie

@SW
ha ha, *jinx*! I mentioned you and there you were!

Even in religious communities, it’s still going to be a dealbreaker. Deti, were you a Christian even in college?

Lokland

@Susan

“Has an eye for the ladies? Not OK.”

Why?
I try not to look and fail miserably whenever she is not in my presence.
If this was a deal breaker nobody would be in relationships.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Why?
I try not to look and fail miserably whenever she is not in my presence.
If this was a deal breaker nobody would be in relationships.

By “an eye for the ladies” I mean looking at other women in her presence, flirting, and perhaps even cheating. She should not be exposed to your desire for variety nor reminded of it. It’s humiliating for a woman.

deti

“Deti, were you a Christian even in college?”

claimed to be but didn’t act like it.

deti

“Has an eye for the ladies? Not OK.”

Wait a minute. So a married man can’t appreciate a pretty woman who isn’t his wife? Can’t notice them?

I’m married. I’m not dead.

deti

Jackie:

Time for you to share. Why are you waiting for marriage to have sex?

JP

““Deti, were you a Christian even in college?”

claimed to be but didn’t act like it.

I hung out with the evangelical Christians who really wanted to baptize me.

And on my 21st birthday, I was with them on a misson/service trip.

Basically because my girlfriend was active with them.

Yay.

Lokland

@JP

“And on my 21st birthday, I was with them on a misson/service trip.

Basically because my girlfriend was active with them.”

If it makes you feel better, I share your pain.
I wound up in some god forsaken third world country trying to get laid.

Note: I did get laid. Not by the women I was travelling to god forsaken third world countries. Funny how that works.

JP

“Note: I did get laid. Not by the women I was travelling to god forsaken third world countries. Funny how that works.”

I certainly didn’t want to get laid by my girlfriend.

Lokland

@JP

“I certainly didn’t want to get laid by my girlfriend.”

I’m gonna second what Susan said.
You’d be hella interesting to talk to at a cocktail party.

Jackie

@deti (1061)

Hi again deti,

For me, it’s a question of “know thyself.”

I know that once I cross that line I will be changed. Not in some huge, immediately noticeable difference. But it will be turning on a switch — one of intense, immense love and devotion– that cannot be turned off. Maybe for some people it can be fun, like a toy. I just know that I am not made like that.

Simply put: I don’t think I am strong enough to break the bond it will create.

To be connected at that level and then rupture the bond I think would be nearly impossible for me to recover. Something inside me would either get brittle or have to break. I know people here probably think I’m a weirdo, impossibly naive or living in rose-colored glasses. But I like that part of me and don’t want it gone.

So, in all likelihood, I would do whatever possible to continue the relationship. To have that happen with a guy who doesn’t feel the same or just sees me as someone he doesn’t care about beyond getting his, would be, to me, hell.

I can take being dumped, but I don’t think I could take that. Does this answer your question?

JP

@Lokland:

“I’m gonna second what Susan said.
You’d be hella interesting to talk to at a cocktail party.”

She was an excellent best friend, however I was distinctly not attracted to her.

As a general rule, I didn’t know what I was doing.

HanSolo

@Jackie

I don’t think you’re a weirdo. It’s good you know yourself and are true to that, in spite of the narrowing of the pool of men that causes for you.

Though likely a very small minority, there will be guys, virgins or not, that value love over sex and will wait until marriage for sex. There was a girl in my post-virgin period that I was willing to wait for because it was important to her.

JP

” I think sexual compatibility is a key predictor of marital happiness.”

I don’t even know what this means.

And I’m not being snarky.

I certainly understand the problem with the violator and Mr. ED, but beyond that, what’s to compatibalize?

What on God’s Green Earth is “sexual compatibility”.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

What on God’s Green Earth is “sexual compatibility”.

It boils down to being with someone you have mind-blowing sex with. People have a wide variety of preferences in the sack. The most common example is oral – most men are eager to find a woman that not only is willing, she loves it. And most women want a partner who enjoys going downtown. Can you imagine your wedding night and having your bride say “ew?” I’m sure it’s happened many, many times, but there is no reason it has to.

JP

@Susan:

“I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.” Pair-bonding = falling in love, and we know that people can do that multiple times, regardless of whether they are having sex.”

I think that the concern is the dis-bonding that can occur, and that therefore, the assumption is that virgins are more tightly bound.

Jackie

@HanSolo
That was really good to hear; thank you for sharing, Captain S.

PS: It was Princess Leia wasn’t it? (C’mon, we know it was!)

Passer_By

@JP

“What on God’s Green Earth is “sexual compatibility”.”

Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either.

Actually, I think it’s more about reasonably matching sex drives, with the caveat that, on average, hers is likely to be little lower if she’s not named Sassy.

I suppose if one person has some sort of desire for a particular thing, you’re going to want the other to be at least accomodating. I would hate to get married and find out my wife had a schiza fetish or golden showers fetish and couldn’t really get turned on without it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either.

Do Asian women have short canals? I didn’t know that.

As for hitting the backstop, good lord, that is agony. Don’t know what it feels like for the guy. That’s why big peens are usually most desirable when your looking at them, not “accommodating” them.

Jackie

@deti

PS: I should add, too, that it’s just a personal choice. I know that I’m an outlier!

I don’t expect people to conform to my way. In fact, I think people should make their own decision *from a healthy, balanced place*.

Passer_By

@susan

“One guy couldn’t bring himself to “violate” his wife, and the other had chronic ED, even at 24.”

Seems to me that those marriages could have been saved by Big Jim Slade.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Because the commitment ain’t there till the papers are signed. Don’t you want to lock in commitment from a good man?

I guess I don’t really see it that way. To me, my BF has already proved he’s committed to me. We’ve discussed marriage (“when” not “if”), we moved in together (perish the thought!) and he stuck with me through all the challenges of the last few years, including my diagnosis with a mental illness. Why would I hold off on sex, after all that? Because I need more commitment?

The advantage is for women, not men. Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.

Doubt it. This is the 21st century, not the 1800s. Very few guys would be willing to wait, and just because they wouldn’t doesn’t necessarily make them “bad quality.”

1. No STDs or dangers thereof.

Right but that’s also not an issue if you’ve had sex with one person outside of marriage.

2. No bonding to men other than your husband.

If I marry my BF, this doesn’t really apply.

3. You’ve given your husband a great gift. He knows he’s #1.

Already the case. In the only difference is we didn’t wait for the ceremony and the signed papers.

4. You’ve shown yourself to be a woman of great value and discipline.

I don’t see how that can’t be shown in other ways.

Ted D

Lol no one ran me off. I had an unusually busy work day, and we were out Christmas shopping.

Besides, the conversation is going rather well I think, and it seems I tend to rile things up when I post.

FWIW I think Escoffier and Deti are pretty much right on the money in terms of what it will take to fix the mess we’ve made of our country. To be honest I’m not sure it CAN be fixed even if we somehow managed to get a majority to want it. Too many people with too much invested in a broken society willing to sell everyone out for the almighty dollar, and most of them in positions of power no less.

JP

@Susan:

“It boils down to being with someone you have mind-blowing sex with.”

As opposed to basic, or standard, sex.

SayWhaat

Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either.

Do Asian women have short canals? I didn’t know that.

Weeelll, Asian men and women tend to be built more “petite”. Smaller everything.

Doesn’t mean it can’t work, though. BF uses Magnum XLs and for the most part we get on fine. Find a position that works and go to town, lol.

Passer_By

@susan, saywhaat

I was referring more to east asians (what we used to call orientals in a more sane time). In my experience, they just can’t fully accomodate a slightly longer than average appendage. You can do it, just not aggressively. Too bad, because they are quite passionate.

Based on data gathered in the field, the most accommodating are black women followed closely by ashkenazi jews. Next would be non-jewish white women, then middle eastern women (backstops coming into play, now). After that, east asian. No specific experience with South Asian, but I’m guessing they are about the same as middle eastern. I’ll have to punt on hispanics, but that term can mean so many mixes, there is probably no real answer.

Hey, now you can say this is an HBD blog, Susan!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Passer By

You rogue! With a big penis. j;alkdfja;lksdfja;slkjdfas;kj

You know that stat that 80% of women can’t come from penetration alone? I read that the 20% is almost all small women – shorter distance between vagina and clit.

Escoffier

This business about the risk of American losing our overseas empire would be more convincing if we actually had an overseas empire.

JP

@Escoffier:

The U.S. is the hegemonic Great Power since we essentially took over from the British.

Remember that the U.S. is somehow magically able to consumem 24% of the world’s energy while having a military presence basically everyhwere.

This has been happening in the West (meaning the Great Power/Hegemon cycle) since Henry the Navigator.

The U.S. was involved in the colonial wars too. That’s how it got Cuba and the Phillipines.

I’m not sold on the idea of Peak Cheap Energy in any event. I haven’t seen enough data. I’m more of a “let’s not spew toxic chemicals everyhwere” kind of person.

Escoffier

ooh, Cuba and the Phillipines, quite an empire! And we don’t have either any more. So, there’s always Puerto Rico and Guam.

This is way OT, I don’t want to annoy Susan, but you should review the essential differences between a guarantor power and an actual empire, they are as the saying goes non-trivial.

JP

The only thing that I really agree with him about is that China’s rising, really wants it’s sea lanes, and that the U.S. is going into relative decline as it’s hegemonic position is being delegitimized right on schedule, so to speak.

The demographics and fertility rates are kind of strange at this point; I’m not sure how that will impact things.

I’ll see what happens in the next 10 years since this is like watching plate techtonics move.

And, yes I know that the U.S. is not an empire. However, it’s benefited from the wealth/energy flows given it’s victory in WWII, which is now passing into true history.

JP

its, not it’s.

HanSolo

I’ve had some not-small women orgasm vaginally…. In fact the g-spot has produced some of their most memorable orgasms. Clits are good too. lol

INTJ

@ SayWhaat

Weeelll, Asian men and women tend to be built more “petite”. Smaller everything.

Yeah this is true. I’ll just have to find a tighter receptacle to stick it in.

Passer_By

@susan

“You rogue!”

Eh. I’m no zach. But living in the LA area, and in West LA in my second single ’30s, there were various nationalities.

“With a big penis.”

Hey, I said “slightly”! Don’t go signing me up for any porn movies.

” j;alkdfja;lksdfja;slkjdfas;kj”

I . . ., uhh . .. don’t know what that means, but I think I like it!

“You know that stat that 80% of women can’t come from penetration alone? I read that the 20% is almost all small women – shorter distance between vagina and clit.”

Maybe within a given nationality. But I think black women and, surprisingly, Ashkenazi Jewish women tend to be the most orgasmic in general, so I’m not sure that’s true on the whole. Of course, this is based on my own limited data sample.

Ramble

We were pretty strapped for cash, but NY is actually a great city to be in when you’re broke, contrary to public opinion.

Yes, if you can afford the very expensive rents, and don’t mind that you will not be visiting any friends (or family) that happen to live in the burbs.

Janet: Susan, we are having a party Friday night and I would love if you could make it.
Susan: Is there a train station nearby?
Janet: Well, sure, uh, it is about 8 minutes away from our home.
Susan: Well, could you leave the party and come pick me up? And, then, drive me back later that night, but not too late since the trains will stop running.
Janet: Uh, yeah, I guess.

J

@JP 1038

Wow. I read the link. Reminded me of Canticle for Liebowitz, sort of. I agree that the Archdruid blogger makes a more cogent argument than Vox does. I really hadn’t thought much about the possibility that that the Mexicans might still be riled up over the Mexican-American War and don’t know enough about Mexico to comment. As to the idea that there is some sort of Hispanic fifth column wanting to aid charismatic bands of Mexican warlords, I’m doubtful. I see them assimilating before that happens. Interesting scenario, nonetheless.

Ramble

As to the idea that there is some sort of Hispanic fifth column wanting to aid charismatic bands of Mexican warlords, I’m doubtful. I see them assimilating before that happens. Interesting scenario, nonetheless.

Regardless of any 5th column idea, Americans of Mexican descent have been living in New Mexico since at least the late 1800s, and in large numbers. Assimilation aside, New Mexico consistently ranks at the bottom of things like Education and Income Inequality.

J

@Ted

Do I really come across as a woman hater?

Not exactly. You come off as someone who has a lot of unresolved issues and who is trying hard to work them out. You seem, in that process, to swing between extremes. There’s this nice, rational, sweet Ted who seems happy and grateful for what he now has. On the other extreme is this Ted who feels a need to assert his manhood lest he once again become the guy he was in his first marriage. I prefer the sweeter Ted.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Maybe your’s. Antibiotics cleared mine up pretty quickly.

Heh Joke of the month!

J

@JP

I think the point is that people aren’t getting married until they’re 30, so this is kind of inconsistent with social reality.

Shhhhusssshhhh. We try not to let reality interfere with manosphere theories regarding female virginity.

@Jackie

I just read the letter from “Roosh” to his younger sister. Interesting how none of it included self-respect or responsibility, just a lot of blaming, fear-mongering and bad behavior. Yes, he told her to make a guy wait, but no other words on creating a healthy relationship. (I realize he probably doesn’t know how.)

Huh? You noticed that too?

J

@Passer_By

Your VD joke had me literally LOL.

Based on data gathered in the field, the most accommodating are black women followed closely by ashkenazi jews.

This is not making sense to me. We all know the black male stereotype, but I haven’t heard similar regarding Ashkenazi males. Assuming that vaginas evolve to fit penises, wouldn’t there be a stereotype about Jewish men?

Next would be non-jewish white women, then middle eastern women

But Ashkenazi women have a mixture of Euro/middle eastern genes. Shouldn’t they fall midway between?

J

But I think black women and, surprisingly, Ashkenazi Jewish women tend to be the most orgasmic in general

A friend of mine has an Ashkenzi mom and a black dad. She must be the luckiest woman in the whole, wide world.

jrd

J: I prefer the sweeter Ted.

Cosign. Earlier in this thread, a man named Ted posted some of the loveliest comments I have ever read, about how much he enjoyed being in his wife’s company. I almost posted “I love you”, I thought it was so sweet. Then, a different Ted starting posting some not-so-lovely things regarding women. I was s-o-o-o confused (BTW, I haven’t been here long), and a bit saddened. I know my opinion is not important to you, and that there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says, but I decided to add my $.02 anyway.

jrd

deti: And the talks detiette is starting to hear are quite different from those deti jr. is getting.

Talks about sex?

Just1Z

@jrd
“there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says”

not quite, the actual manosphere line (if one can be said to exist, it’s a big old sphere) is more like; “Don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do”

but FWIW, I think that it should also be applied to men, and is generally speaking, great advice to everyone.

deti

“In ancestral times, it is believed humans were serially monogamous in 4-7 years periods. Pair-bonding presumably occurred in each relationship. I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.””

OK, but my experience is and what I’ve been told, most women bond to men they have had sex with. They bond with boyfriends they have sex with, and certainly with husbands. I don’t doubt if her attraction triggers are pulled and the sex is awesome, she’ll bond to a single encounter ONS.

The point is that a bond once made has to be broken so she is freed up to move on to the next man. Perhaps breaking the bond is painful, perhaps not; perhaps it takes a long time or is done in an instant. But it has to be broken one way or another. Otherwise her emotions and her heart won’t be freed up to bond to another man. I submit this is what Jackie is talking about in her comment at 1069.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

most women bond to men they have had sex with. They bond with boyfriends they have sex with, and certainly with husbands. I don’t doubt if her attraction triggers are pulled and the sex is awesome, she’ll bond to a single encounter ONS.

…I submit this is what Jackie is talking about in her comment at 1069.

I’m trying to understand the bonding from a physiological and/or psychological context. It sounds as if you (and perhaps Jackie) are describing something that occurs in a binary way – bonded to a man or not bonded to him. Based on the fact that you think this can happen in a ONS I assume this has nothing to do with love.

Perhaps you are referring to oxytocin, known as the cuddle hormone? It’s present in both men and women and facilitates trust and attachment. Women experience high levels of it after orgasm, during childbirth, and while breastfeeding. Men experience it in relationships and after a child is born. It also increases in general positive social interactions, even with the same sex. Oxytocin and vasopressin together are thought to promote bonding.

The one-night stand hormone?

All of this is not to say that oxytocin isn’t involved in love and commitment. Research by Ruth Feldman, a psychologist at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, has shown that higher levels of oxytocin during pregnancy are associated with better bonding after a baby is born. Fathers also get an oxytocin boost when playing with their babies, Feldman said. And pilot data on a large study of new lovers suggests that when people fall in love, oxytocin levels spike.

But when it comes to casual sex, Feldman said, no one has done studies on humans to measure oxytocin and emotional entanglement.

“The findings are not there,” Feldman told LiveScience.

Women whose brains release more oxytocin tend to have more sex, Claremont’s Zak said, though it’s not known whether one causes the other. Sex may deepen feelings, he said, but if hormones alone were to blame, other oxytocin-boosting activities would be causing a lot more trouble.

“If the casual sex story is true, then there should be no back massages, no chick flicks,” Zak said. “All those should be out the window.”

http://www.livescience.com/12833-love-hormone-oxytocin-dark-side.html

The instant bonding experience you are describing is a myth. In addition, the response to the breaking of relationship bonds is grief. There is no “lifelong” bond that occurs and holds women prisoner, though this can happen for either sex in the form of mental and emotional dysfunction or illness.

Ted D

Susan – “I would never regularly go to someone else’s blog with the goal of discrediting them. “

I’m not interested in rehashing any of this, but can you show me where I ever said that my goal is to discredit you? Just because I don’t agree with you on something does NOT mean I’m trying to make you look bad. YOU are the expert here, I’m just blowing out virtual spit on MY take of YOUR expertise. How many times have I said to NOT take anything I say as gospel?

J – “On the other extreme is this Ted who feels a need to assert his manhood lest he once again become the guy he was in his first marriage. I prefer the sweeter Ted.”

You are a dear. I like sweeter Ted too J, but sweeter Ted ended up divorced and facing a future of single fatherhood. IF sweeter Ted could succeed in this world, he would be the only Ted. And THIS is why I am so torn about my kids. I want to raise them with the ideals and values of Sweeter Ted, but I also know that I failed to survive as him, so I suspect they’ll have about the same success as “sweeter” people. Instead, I’m faced with turning them into something else JUST so they don’t get taken advantage of.

I don’t hate anyone, but I do hate the situation most of us are stuck dealing with.

Jrd – “Cosign. Earlier in this thread, a man named Ted posted some of the loveliest comments I have ever read, about how much he enjoyed being in his wife’s company. I almost posted “I love you”, I thought it was so sweet.”

And every bit of what I posted is 100% true. Look, I don’t understand why so many people are confused here. I love and respect my wife because I know her intimately. However I don’t extend ANY of the empathy and compassion I have for her to other women, because I don’t know them all. I have a very pessimistic view of humanity, and my default position with every person I interact with is: they suck until proven otherwise. It is not at all difficult for me to love my wife (even though she is X) and dislike everyone else who is X, because SHE proved she was better than X. So, my “not-so-lovely” take on “women” has NO reflection on my wife whatsoever, because she is far more than JUST a woman.

Put another way, she has proven to me beyond all doubt that she is better than the average women, and because of that I treat her FAR better than I do the average women. But, I’m equal opprotunity here. I don’t discriminate between sex, race, religion, nationality, or any of that crap. Instead, I tend to just believe that “people” suck, until they individually prove me wrong. I’m not a racist/sexist, I’m an elitest. FWIW I see Vox largely in the same light. I don’t think he is playing the race card, I think he is viewing things from an elitest POV.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

I’m not interested in rehashing any of this, but can you show me where I ever said that my goal is to discredit you?

You have never said that, but that is how I interpret your saying that you comment at HUS because I am misleading people and they need to hear a different perspective. That sets you up as my opponent, which is not a dynamic I wish to experience or perpetrate here.

Ted D

One final comment on this: My wife EARNS “sweeter Ted” every day of her life. She gets to see that from me, because she gives it TO me. The rest of the world? Not so much…

INTJ

@ Ramble

Regardless of any 5th column idea, Americans of Mexican descent have been living in New Mexico since at least the late 1800s, and in large numbers. Assimilation aside, New Mexico consistently ranks at the bottom of things like Education and Income Inequality.

Mississippi, with its black and white population, is worse on both measures.

Ted D

Susan – “That sets you up as my opponent, which is not a dynamic I wish to experience or perpetrate here.”

Ahhhhh. I see now. I honestly don’t view opposition from others in that light, but I can see how someone might.

This strikes me as a social-type reaction to oppostion, so it isn’t surprising I missed it. I don’t think you purposely mislead anyone, and frankly I wouldn’t even say you mislead anyone at all. But, to me that still doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t know the whole truth. I’ve tossed out opposing views of things I agree on, simply because I believe people should look at the whole picture before they decide if its art or crap.

Thanks for the clarification!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

Thank you too for clarifying. Once again, it appears my ENFJness has gotten the better of me.

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

From hanging out here for a little while, I think I have observed a particular stratification:

On the question of the two dominant female tracks (Career and Mom):

1) Hard Conservative View: There should really only be one track—Mom. Everyone would be happier that way.

2) Soft Conservative View: Women should have the two tracks, but should really choose one earlier than they currently are—say, around age 19-20. In other words, pick a track prior to obtaining credentials, using up educational resources, taking on student debt, etc.

3) Mainstream View: Women should have the two track options and decide which one to select, but only after getting education out of the way and starting careers. At the time of selection, a provisioning-ready male will clearly be critical, so make this part of the overall plan. Develop relationship skills via serial monogamy.

4) Soft Feminist View: Proceed with education and career as in 3, but then drop the SAHM option and associated provisioning male requirement. Have a boy toy, flings with alphas, whatever. Career should not be jeopardized; do what is necessary. Develop requisite alpha female traits—including ability to “have sex like a man” and financial independence—through all manner of relationships, including hook-ups.

5) Hard Feminist View. As in 4, but de-emphasize motherhood even more, as pregnancy is now resented and seen as an instrument of patriarchal oppression. If you just have to have kids, adopt PC ones from Bhutan or use a sperm donor, but for God’s sake remove men from the equation altogether, as men suck.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@BB

Dude, I really like the way you think.

The 5 Views are perfect, as they even include humor!

I’m not sure about the name of 3 though – that describes me to a tee, and yet I feel anything but mainstream…I think the culture peddles #4 hard.

deti

Susan:

deti: “Why not do away with all this from the outset, and start having both sides compromise and give up a little to get something more?”

Susan: “How? It’s a goal I can endorse, but I have no earthly idea how to get that ball rolling.”

Oy. Now I’m getting sucked into this thread. Here goes….

1. Return to the precepts of Marriage 1.0.

2. Marriage is one and done. For life. Forever, unless someone breaks the contract.

3. No one in marriage is going to get everything they want. Anyone who wants marriage is going to have to compromise on some things.

4. Marriage is not all fun and games. It is not always flowers and romance and walks on the beach and sweaty shake-the-plaster-off-the-walls sex. Sometimes it’s bill-paying and nose-wiping and diaper-changing and vomit-cleaning and toilet-fixing and running out the door to work meetings and seeing each other only at 9:30 pm once the kids are in bed. And you can’t end it lightly, either. There will be hard times. He will hurt you. He will say stupid shit. She will do something dumb that causes some loss of money. She will be thoughtless. She will be an emotional basket case sometimes. You have to work through it.

5. Men need to learn Game. Not for a woman, not because a woman tells you that you should learn it. Not to get laid, not to make yourself available as a boyfriend or a husband for a woman who you don’t even know. Do it for yourself. Because through it, you will become the man you were meant to be. It will give you something to live for, something to strive for, something bigger than yourself, something you can build or make or be a part of; other than begging for the approval of a woman.

Men need to get in shape, stop supplicating to women, and get realistic about their SMVs. If you are a 5 or a 6, you will not be pulling Kate Upton or Tyra Banks no matter how much expert game you spit. You might, however, be able to pull Laura Linney or Kat Dennings.

6. For the women: Susan, I know you don’t want to hear this, but some women will need to rearrange their priorities, and be more feminine. Many men are getting the clear message that marriage, and all that it entails, simply isn’t important to women at large. They are getting this message because of the hookup culture that encourages women to keep their options open, date only the very high status men, run up high Ns in their 20s, and postpone marriage until the last possible moment. They are also getting this message because of the high divorce rate. They’re shocked at how easily many women seem to be able to leave decades-long marriages with nary a second thought.

Marriage is either important to a woman, or it is not. Finding a suitable man to marry is either important to her, or it is not. She can prepare for education and a job while at the same time maintaining her femininity and being open to marriage to the right man. This might mean early marriage in her early 20s, while sacrificing education and career until later. I am not saying women have to do this; I am saying perhaps they should not foreclose it as an option. Perhaps if more women were open to this they might find marriage easier to achieve. The problem is that women don’t need to do this, thinking they can simply marry later. But if this were true, we wouldn’t have cautionary tales like Kate Bolick floating around.

Also, women should show they are good, worthy marriage risks. This means they approach and ask for dates; show clear IOIs, display feminine traits; and have low Ns. Do I expect virginity? No, I’m a realist. But I’d also look askance at 15 ONSs because that suggests someone who is a poor marriage risk, who lives in the moment, who cares little for herself; who is always looking for the next excitement/drama fix; and who will bail when the going gets tough.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Susan, I know you don’t want to hear this, but some women will need to rearrange their priorities, and be more feminine. Many men are getting the clear message that marriage, and all that it entails, simply isn’t important to women at large. They are getting this message because of the hookup culture that encourages women to keep their options open,

I agree with you completely, I have no problem hearing that. I’ve written several posts saying this very thing.

I am not saying women have to do this; I am saying perhaps they should not foreclose it as an option. Perhaps if more women were open to this they might find marriage easier to achieve. The problem is that women don’t need to do this, thinking they can simply marry later. But if this were true, we wouldn’t have cautionary tales like Kate Bolick floating around.

No doubt this would lower the marriage age and possibly increase the marriage rate. But it’s a non-starter, because parents will find this unacceptable. One of the primary provisioning acts parents perform is saving for college. Once the college bubble bursts, we may see a change, but I cannot imagine American parents – women and men – encouraging their daughters to consider the option of marrying before attending college.

Your point re Bolick is a valid one – it was her mother who urged her to ditch her first bf and stay unattached in her youth.

I believe that most women today want what Bastiat Blogger called the mainstream option. They want to earn a degree, get a good job, and then begin dating with the goal of finding a life partner. Some women deliberately set aside their 20s for fun and carousel riding, but I believe they are a minority. I think a lot of what happens is that women go along to get along and before they know it their 20s are gone and it didn’t happen. They didn’t plan for it, they didn’t take steps to meet someone, they just waited to be tapped on the shoulder by a fairy godmother’s wand.

Also, women should show they are good, worthy marriage risks. This means they approach and ask for dates; show clear IOIs, display feminine traits; and have low Ns.

I’ll cosign this with one exception – I am concerned that when a guy doesn’t initiate the date, he doesn’t invest in the outcome. I’m all for women giving plenty of encouragement – maybe even teasingly asking when he’s going to get around to asking. But the more I hear and read, the more I think men really don’t prefer for women to do the asking. This remains an open question – there is no consensus on this among HUS males.

deti

Cosign Ted at 1111.

I liked nice deti. By myself, I was content being who I was as nice deti. Problem is, no one else respected him or had any use for him. He got walked on and pushed around at work, disrespected at home, and no sex. Nice deti almost got divorced and almost ruined his kids’ lives. Game deti manages his work and his life, gets laid, and watches over his kids.

deti

“The instant bonding experience you are describing is a myth.”

If you’re saying a woman can’t bond to an ONS after having mind-blowing sex with him, I disagree. Oxytocin is released in a woman after orgasm. So if she has multiple orgasms with SuperStud One Night Stand Dude who pushes all her buttons just right, some kind of bonding probably happens, don’t you think, particularly if the science supports bonding following oxytocin release.

“In addition, the response to the breaking of relationship bonds is grief. There is no “lifelong” bond that occurs and holds women prisoner, though this can happen for either sex in the form of mental and emotional dysfunction or illness.”

Of course the breaking of relationship bonds causes grief. I didn’t say it doesn’t. The point is that some women, I think, get so bonded they can’t let them go even when SuperStud is long gone from their lives; or they simply choose to hold onto those bonds for whatever reason. To the extent it’s a prison, it is one of her own making.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

So if she has multiple orgasms with SuperStud One Night Stand Dude who pushes all her buttons just right, some kind of bonding probably happens, don’t you think, particularly if the science supports bonding following oxytocin release.

No, I know that it doesn’t. Oxytocin levels are just as high during masturbation. Bonding, which is attachment, occurs over time. Oxytocin “primes” the psyche, if you will, to be open to developing feelings of intimacy and attachment. It does not actually produce attachment. So a woman in a FWB situation is more likely to become attached than without sex, but the oxytocin produced during non-sexual interaction with a man can also promote bonding.

Oxytocin also affects people in different ways. For example, a “cad” (as opposed to dad) will see his oxytocin levels go way up after his child is born, but the bonding may not occur because he is not emotionally capable. At the other end of the spectrum, an insecure and depressed woman may attach readily to almost anyone who provides her with the validation she craves.

Again, women are no more likely to bond than men are. In fact, I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.

Here’s Helen Fisher on the science, which is what we are talking about:

“During this stage, what I call infatuation, you experience increases of norepinephrine and dopamine levels in the brain and of testosterone, too, since lust is involved,” she says. “When you move into the attachment stage, where you see an increase of vasopressin and oxytocin, the other hormones return to normal. Most couples in attached relationships have less sex than those in the infatuation stage.” The phrase addicted to love applies to women and men who crave the excitement (and sex) of infatuation, floating from one intense affair to the next, leaving a pile of heartbroken, attachment-seeking partners in their wake.

Once you’ve transitioned out of infatuation, hormone levels dropping, you either attach or you do the opposite. “I don’t use the word detach in my research,” Fisher says, “but that’s what happens. When you’re heartbroken, hormones change again. You get another dopamine boost. That makes you have no interest in food at the beginning and end of a passionate relationship.”

A bond that lasts well beyond the relationship is considered pathological:

“Limerence can be unending. I’ve interviewed subjects who’ve nursed a fixation on their limerence objects—LOs—for decades. What’s the trick? Their feelings were unrequited. Their LOs gave them mixed signals, like ignoring them for months and then calling. Hope, confusion, and uncertainty kept it going. The phenomenon is defined, in part, by feeling a loss of control. The limerent person can’t stop thinking about the LO: What did he mean by that? How can I interpret his tone of voice? How is he responding to me? A prolonged fixation on someone who doesn’t love you back is considered, by some psychologists, a pathology called erotomania.

JP

@J:

“As to the idea that there is some sort of Hispanic fifth column wanting to aid charismatic bands of Mexican warlords, I’m doubtful. I see them assimilating before that happens.”

He’s just drawing parallels between the Roman Empire/Germans and present day U.S.

He’s assuming that we’ve hit peak cheap energy and are entering economic decline.

Ted D

JP – “He’s assuming that we’ve hit peak cheap energy and are entering economic decline.”

You don’t think we’ve hit or are close to hitting peak cheap energy? Interesting.

I tend to think we are there or close, but being in Western PA, I can add that gas production is through the roof here because of new collection techniques. I don’t think we are 100% at peak yet, and things like this will perhaps keep it at bay a bit longer, but I’m pretty confident that we are close, and it is inevitable. That is, unless we can come up with a new source of energy the the EPA and environmentalists don’t shoot down from the word go.

Sassy6519

@ Passer_By

Based on data gathered in the field, the most accommodating are black women followed closely by ashkenazi jews.

Haha!

Well, I do consider myself to be somewhat of a “size queen”. I like men with larger penises than most. 7″-9″ is the sweet spot for me. The largest I’ve handled was 9″, and that was a cake walk. I just find large penises more interesting to look at and more fun to play with.

Ted D

Sassy – LOL! Damn I love your honesty and bluntness.

Deti/All – The comment above reminded me of something my grandpa used to say: “Ted, there are some people in this world whos only purpose in life is to show others what NOT to do.” (I’m sure it wasn’t an original thought, but he said it often.)

Perhaps part of what drives me here at HUS is just that: I made some major mistakes, and I own them and am fixing them. But, that doesn’t mean that my experience can’t help someone else NOT make those mistakes again. People here are saying “how can a guy that lovingly strokes his wifes hair snuggling in bed be SO bitter at women”. Much of what I post explains it. I know I’m not a 20-something guy looking for a wife. I realize that my views on many things are “old fashioned” and “stuffy”, but that doesn’t mean the things I learned in the past can’t help Cooper.

If what Susan and many women here say is true: that women want “good” or “nice” men, then they should think about what MAKES men “good” and “nice”, and how that might go off track. Deep down inside, I am a “good” man. I am very kind and considerate to my friends and family. But, I’ve been hurt, abused, taken advantage of, lied to, and cheated out of the opprotunity to make my own choices, because other people thougth they knew more about what was good for me than myself. And, like a “good” boy/man, I listened to them.

What I am today is the cumulative result of starting life as a kind and gentle person, exposed to and used by a world full of unkind people. If women want “good” men to marry, then we need to foster an environment where “good” men can prosper. The Modern West is not such an environment, and every time a conversation here goes to “why do men do X? Why can’t men do Y” my knee-jerk reaction is “because you and society have NOT created an environment where Y makes sense and X does not.”

Incentive drives behavior, and no matter how much women complain that there are “no good men” out there, they won’t magically appear. If you want good men, you have to MAKE them. And, by and large, we just aren’t making “good” people at all.

Ion

“Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either. ”

Few asian American women I know have a shortage of cock in college and once interracially married, so the notion that they are “smaller” doesn’t ring up?

I wonder what it means if you prefer smaller, and easily reach O? That’s where I fit. (I am 6’1. It’s incredibly hard for me to even wear a tampon usually).

I think anything over 6-7 inches is ugly, and deflated looking. It’s a good thing I’ve never seen anything above 6 in person, only online.

Lokland

@Ion

“Few asian American women I know have a shortage of cock in college and once interracially married, so the notion that they are “smaller” doesn’t ring up?”

I’ve read this like four times and still can’t figure out what you meant.

Ted D

Susan – “No, I know that it doesn’t. Oxytocin levels are just as high during masturbation.”

OK, so that leaves two theories for the “alpha widow” if they exist:
1. as stated above, it is the fact that the “alpha” never fully returned her interests in a commitment, and she still longs for it. (pathological?)
2. She isn’t pining for the “alpha”, but she IS pining for the massively orgasmic pounding the “alpha” gave her.

I can’t say I know any true “alpha widows”, but I’ve known plenty of women that pined away for a past lover, which may not be as extreme as the ‘sphere paints it, but does exist all the same.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted

I can’t say I know any true “alpha widows”, but I’ve known plenty of women that pined away for a past lover, which may not be as extreme as the ‘sphere paints it, but does exist all the same.

I personally have never known a woman to pine for the sex rather than the man. A good pounding from a male who does not have “favored” status appeals only to extremely unrestricted women. They tend to have a lot more partners, so I don’t see any indication they pine for a past one, but I don’t know. A woman with a broken heart will not describe sex if you ask her what she misses most. I’ll stake my nest egg on that.

Both men and women pine, i.e. grieve, for past loves where attachment has been profound. How long they pine will vary, and has a great deal to do with the mental state of the person. As I cited above, this condition is not normal behavior.

Lokland

@Susan

“In fact, I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.”

I’ll vouch for this.

———————————————-

I’ll make deti’s point really simple.
We don’t want a wife sitting around fantasizing about the guy she fucked 20 years ago.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I’ll make deti’s point really simple.
We don’t want a wife sitting around fantasizing about the guy she fucked 20 years ago.

Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?

deti

“I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.”

I can vouch for it too.

Ramble

Mississippi, with its black and white population, is worse on both measures.

But we don’t have the MSM calling for, basically, open borders via “Immigration Reform” for more Deep South Blacks and Whites…but we do for the crossing of more Mexicans into America, and we can see what the result has been in places like New Mexico and Arizona.

Ramble

I’m not sure about the name of 3 though – that describes me to a tee, and yet I feel anything but mainstream…I think the culture peddles #4 hard.

That is because you live in Brookline, used to live in Manhattan, got your post Grad from Penn and were raised in (fairly) wealthy SoCal.

If you lived in Topeka, your ideas and attitudes would almost definitely be mainstream.

deti

Another thing I might add for women to “compromise” is this:

The hookup culture fosters in women a strong tendency to conflate their SMVs with their MMVs. Nearly all women have higher SMVs than MMVs. I think some realism is in order. Women on the carousel or watching the carousel need to know that their only real value to the hot alphas is as a sex partner. Those alphas are not considering marriage, no way no how, not to her, and not to anyone. While a male 9 will happily sex a female 6, there is no way he’ll wife her up.

The way it looks to a lot of men, there are a fair number of women saying they have no problem with this. It looks to men that most women would rather sex a 9 for a night than marry a 6 for 50 years. Perhaps what women can do to change that perception is… stop sleeping with the 9s and getting nothing in return. Start dating, having sex with, and marrying the 5s, 6s and 7s.

Ion

Lokland

“I’ve read this like four times and still can’t figure out what you meant.”

Perhaps I misread the original comment, that east Asian women are “petite” everywhere, and therefore 8 inches might be uncomfortable because they are accustomed to smaller sizes.

My point was that they seem to be interracially marrying and thus, taking in larger non-asian male penises just fine (and judging by what I saw in college, from both black and white men). Unless we’re to believe that these women experience lifelong discomfort when they interracially marry.

If we’re too judge based on interracial dating as well, more women of non-black ethnicities are size queens than the other way around, since this is where the rumor must’ve come from, and is often cited as a reason for interracially dating among white and asian women I’ve heard.

Of course I believe it’s pop culture that’s pushed the rumors to a degree that size matters…and it mainly matters to women on the carousel. Women who are restricted aren’t going to “stretch” unless frequent sex has stretched them.

Blah blah blah lol, I don’t know for certain, because again, I haven’t been out screwing random guys from all ethnicities and taking notes, I can only go by my own limited experiences and size preferences.

Ted D

“Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you”

Or she married you not because she was truly “in love” with you, but because you were her best option at the time.

I know you dont’ believe this happens often Susan, but orbitted enough women (granted in the late 80’s early 90’s, but I doubt much has changed on this particular topic) to know that many “pine” for lost lovers. In most cases involving the stereotypical cad, she pines because she didn’t manage to “lock it down”, and despite supposedly moving on, she still wants him, or another guy she sees as the same in quality (which generally also is another cad-like guy)

If such a woman years later matures and learns that there are more important things in a husband than his “bad boy attitude”, then she may find a “good” guy and settle down happily. But, what about the women that go well into their late 2o’s still looking for the “perfect cad”, that is, she is still stuck on making a “bad boy” her “kitchen bitch”? Yes, I’m exaggerating, but the meme exists because it has some basis in reality.

I’ll add that perhaps the real issue is: not only is the West not making “good” people, but also making more “batshit crazy” people than ever before. I can completely see this as a plausible explaination for much of what I see. People are not growing, maturing, and settling into healthy adult attitudes as early as they used to, if at all.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

I’ll add that perhaps the real issue is: not only is the West not making “good” people, but also making more “batshit crazy” people than ever before. I can completely see this as a plausible explaination for much of what I see. People are not growing, maturing, and settling into healthy adult attitudes as early as they used to, if at all.

LOL, I’ll agree with this.

In most cases involving the stereotypical cad, she pines because she didn’t manage to “lock it down”, and despite supposedly moving on, she still wants him, or another guy she sees as the same in quality (which generally also is another cad-like guy)

As I said, women who hold on and pine for years have issues. In any case, I do not understand how a man gets to the point of watching one of these women walk up the aisle. I know you’ve said before that you were not sure what to expect, but IMO the bottom line is this: If a man does not feel that his wife is head over heels for him and wanting to sex him up on a very regular basis, he should not marry. No man should marry unless he literally feels worshipped and adored.

And no woman should marry unless she is with a one-woman man who has gone over the cliff.

Jackie

@deti (1110)

Hey deti,

You are taking one person — who defines herself as an outlier — and extrapolating her belief/opinion to women as a whole. Not cool. It also seems like you are taking my personal belief and using it to push an agenda. Also not cool.

I was speaking for *myself*, not an entire gender! I would never presume to speak for the bonding abilities of other women.

There are all kinds of people in the world; as I said in my follow-up, I would prefer to see people making decisions from a healthy, balanced place. *That may be different for each person.*

Ramble

A prolonged fixation on someone who doesn’t love you back is considered, by some psychologists, a pathology called erotomania.

My guess is that about 10-20% of teenaged males suffer from Erotomania.

Lokland

@Susan

“eah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?”

Kind of a non-issue for me.
I don’t really care, but I suspect you are more correct than him.

Lokland

@Ion

Thats what I thought you meant.

What I quoted was garbuldeegook in terms of meaning.
Maybe I just haven’t had enough coffee yet though.

Lokland

@Ted D

“Or she married you not because she was truly “in love” with you, but because you were her best option at the time.”

Human beings can rationalize almost anything.
Being the best at the time can quite literally mean being in love with the person.

Self defence mechanism.

Ion

“Maybe I just haven’t had enough coffee yet though.”

Haha, you and me both :-/.

I’m gonna go get that second cup now I think.

deti

@ Jackie: “You are taking one person — who defines herself as an outlier — and extrapolating her belief/opinion to women as a whole. Not cool. It also seems like you are taking my personal belief and using it to push an agenda. Also not cool.”

Sorry if you were offended. I didn’t mean to hold you up as an example of anything, nor am I using it to push an agenda. Respectfully, I think you are overreacting a tad.

I don’t understand this idea that I or someone else cannot use something someone says on this board as a springboard to discuss a point I want to make, or to illustrate it. People extrapolate, use, discuss, disagree with and dissect things I say here and elsewhere all the time. Susan takes what I say elsewhere and criticizes, analyzes it, and uses it to support points she wants to make.

Can we all develop thicker skins here?

Sassy6519

@ deti

The way it looks to a lot of men, there are a fair number of women saying they have no problem with this. It looks to men that most women would rather sex a 9 for a night than marry a 6 for 50 years. Perhaps what women can do to change that perception is… stop sleeping with the 9s and getting nothing in return. Start dating, having sex with, and marrying the 5s, 6s and 7s.

How feasible is this? I’m not entirely sure.

Women want what they want. Either women will strive to get what they want, succeeding or failing in the process, or they will settle for someone who “will do”.

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about dating these past few months, and I’ve decided that the first option sounds infinitely better than the second option. I won’t settle. That will only frustrate me, or make me resentful, and it will hurt the man I settle for. I would rather go after men that I truly desire. If I fail, it will suck, but I will survive. What’s the point of marrying a man that I am indifferent towards just so I can say that I am married, or so that I can avoid being alone? That’s definitely not fair to the guy, and it isn’t a savory option for myself.

Jackie

@Ted
“I’ll add that perhaps the real issue is: not only is the West not making “good” people, but also making more “batshit crazy” people than ever before. I can completely see this as a plausible explaination for much of what I see.”
===
Ted, a significant percentage of the population has always been “crazy” (ie massive dysfunction). And I don’t think it’s “the West,” which seems to be your favorite scapegoat. The human condition is universal. Haven’t you read history?

I think we’re actually getting better, in that illness is being studied and diagnosis attempted… instead of charging people to observe them for fun, like Bedlam Hospital in the 19th century.

The only difference is that there are simply MORE of them, on basis of the highest population. But I’d bet the percentage has always been pretty stable. Besides that, people spent so much of their time on survival or they didn’t live to extend their “craziness” the way we can today.

deti

Sassy:

“How feasible is this? I’m not entirely sure.”

I am not either. But I consider that you’re a self-described 8 who claims to be hot enough to date alpha men, and that this is the way you feel about it at this point in your life, at age 24. Given your attitude that you won’t settle (meaning you won’t COMPROMISE — there is a difference), I think you’d do well to avoid marriage.

Most women are not 8s, nor are they in grad school, nor do they have promising careers ahead of them. Most women can only ONS alpha men. Most women have no hope of locking down such a desirable man for commitment.

Most women have an SMV of between 4 and 7. Somewhere between the ages of 25 and 50 they will all will lose at least 2 of those SMV points. Most want to marry a suitable man. Further, there aren’t nearly enough male 8s, 9s and 10s to marry all the women who want them — and that would be true even if every single one of those men wanted to get married and stayed married.

I appreciate your honesty. Would that more women were as self-aware. I think most women feel the way you do, but are hopelessly unrealistic about the difference between what they can have for a night, and what they can have for a lifetime. And that is the source of their pain and frustration.

Lokland

@Susan

“the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy.”

Story time.

Couple I knew back in grad school (shortly after meeting my wife).
Been together a longish time.
She thinks he is too nice. Actual words, “I can’t believe I’m complaining that my boyfriend is too nice but he is.” (To me, like I’m supposed to have solve the damn problem. I just wanted to drink wine.)

They end up in a foursome with another girl-guy. (Nice guy boyfriend cries in his room after.)
Shortly thereafter girl wants to have threesome with just guy.

Solution, nice guy boyfriend gets so pissed off it actually escalates to physical violence. They fight, they hit each other a bit.

Girl is now happy. I just sit and continue drinking wine wondering when crazy train stops.

I’ll admit, I knew this girl was bat shit crazy from the get-go.
Her boyfriend was too ‘nice’.
I suspect a lot of this “my wife wants to fuck another guy” shtick from guys is from ‘nice’ ie. doormat guys.

I highly doubt the ‘not nice’ guys have problems with their women wanting to fuck other guys. Maybe love them but not fuck.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Lokland

Her boyfriend was too ‘nice’.
I suspect a lot of this “my wife wants to fuck another guy” shtick from guys is from ‘nice’ ie. doormat guys.

Sorry to invoke the show Girls, but there’s a scene between two women that is very much about this. They talk about doormat Charlie and then one observes that the problem is that he has a vagina.

That’s the real issue. Women don’t want to have sex with men who have vaginas. If we’re sexually attracted to femininity, there’s a more direct route.

Jackie

@deti

It’s not about thicker skins– it’s about accuracy:

I see all kinds of unhealthy stuff being sold on the Manosphere. So much of it is inaccurate and so much of it perpetuates fear-mongering and hatefulness.

I think there is a HUGE contingent of men who are freaked out that their wife has somehow bonded to another man. That the possibility evens exists. Instead of talking about it, owning their role in their relationship, and looking for solutions, memes get promoted instead. “The Carousel,” “Alpha Widow,” etc.

Memes trumping self-awareness shuts down both dialogue and the possibility for learning. And, ironically, the chance to avoid difficulty in the first place.

There may be women out there who may have had sex with these so-called alphas, who are still incredibly bonded with their husband and only him. Only he can’t believe that, since the meme says it’s not true.

That is where I take issue, deti. I hope this makes sense.

Ted D

Jackie – “The human condition is universal. Haven’t you read history”

Well sure! Lots of examples of mental issues in history, but I didn’t literally mean “batshit crazy” to be some type of diagnosed mental illness. To me, our general attitude in the West (I don’t know any other cultures, so I can’t rag on them…) is “batshit crazy” in that we promote an environment that brings out the worst in humanity. We teach people to be self-serving and selfish, which IMO starts to look a bit like “batshit crazy” as the entitlement it creates grows over time.

If I was implying that we had more legitimate mental health issues now, I’d have said “mental health”, not “batshit crazy”. IMO, I’ve known plenty of “batshit crazy” people that would probably pass a psychological exam with a clean bill of health. But that doesn’t change the fact that their behavior is nuts.

But, I do see your point about the larger population. It hadn’t occurred to me that with more people comes more “defects” (for lack of a better word. Not claiming mentally ill people are defective). Kinda puts some wind in the sails of folks that think we are overpopulating the planet. If there was less of us, there’d be less “batshit crazy” people running around.

Thanks for the perspective.

deti

Sassy:

I’d also add that one cannot extrapolate your views to the population at large, because you’ve made it clear you don’t want children. I submit most women feel differently primarily because they want to have children.

Ted D

Lokland – “Human beings can rationalize almost anything.
Being the best at the time can quite literally mean being in love with the person.”

I’ll add this to the list of reasons I think “people” suck. Lovely to ponder how many people “talked themselves” into a marriage based on rationalization. And, if what you say is true, many of them may truly not have known they didn’t really love the other.

This makes my head hurt…

Cooper

Sassy,

Your confirming exactly what deti is saying.

That you’d much rather ramain in the SMP (and sleep with men at your SMV), than to ever marry at your MMV.

” If I fail, it will suck, but I will survive.”

And what if, one day, you change your mind?

Jackie

@Ted

Ted, we’re probably on the same page re: culture of the West. I think it’s profoundly dysfunctional and disconnected. The things we put on the pedestal of “success” are often soul-destroying.

It also takes a very strong person to go against the grain of the culture. To be in the culture, but not of it, so to speak. I think the best thing to do is to take individual action:

Unplug the devices and spend time in the shelter of each other. (Ha ha, irony as I’m typing this on the computer! )I also think that we need to truly learn to listen to each other — not just hearing, listening– and ourselves. I feel that the siren-song of materialism and selfishness puts people into a trance, like hypnosis. And we have to stand back and snap out of it.

deti

@ Jackie:

“The Carousel,” “Alpha Widow,” etc.

The carousel isn’t a “meme”. It’s based on observations, and it’s been talked about here. It can’t be denied there are women who have chase and/or have sex with high status alpha men, and those men only, purposely putting off marriage.

The s0-called “Alpha Widow” isn’t a meme either. I think Susan has just put up some science that says Alpha Widows are batshit crazy. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist; it just means they’re nuts.

You’re saying that men aren’t owning their roles in their relationships. Maybe there is some of that; but I’d have to disagree for the most part. Pointing out female dysfunction does not mean a refusal to see male dysfunction. Believe me, Jackie, I know what my dysfunctions are. I have them thrown in my face all day, every minute of every day, by my family, my employer, the media, and the culture. There has been scant little information about what the female role in relationships is, and in the SMP at large.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

The carousel isn’t a “meme”. It’s based on observations, and it’s been talked about here. It can’t be denied there are women who have chase and/or have sex with high status alpha men, and those men only, purposely putting off marriage.

Something can be true and be a meme – it just means the idea has gone viral. There are definitely manosphere memes, many of which have some validity, but most tend to be gross exaggerations.

There obviously are hardcore sluts who do not seek relationships, or fruitlessly seek them with men they can’t have. I suppose they might be called alpha groupies – they do exist. However, they represent a small fraction of the female population, so when people generalize that meme to the whole population, which is very common in the sphere, a false notion has been perpetrated.

A good example is the idea of “carousel watching.” This makes no sense, as women who want to have sex with alphas are usually able to do so easily. The idea of other women looking on longingly doesn’t ring true to me, and I’ve never observed it. In fact, I’ve never heard it anywhere but in the sphere, from men. In fact, there is a lot of data that shows that 80% of college women avoid casual sex and disapprove of it. So here’s another “meme” that has been repeated again and again until it appears to have some semblance of validity. In point of fact, it’s baseless.

The s0-called “Alpha Widow” isn’t a meme either. I think Susan has just put up some science that says Alpha Widows are batshit crazy. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist; it just means they’re nuts.

It says that hanging on to old, broken relationships for a long time is pathological. It says nothing about sex as the source of that longing, and it applies equally to both sexes, and probably all kinds of men. The idea that betas haven’t broken any hearts along the way is silly.

So again, “alpha widow” doesn’t really make any sense, any more than beta widow, or alpha female widower. Heartbreak comes in all shapes and sizes. In fact, I don’t think alphas break many hearts, because they bail long before attachment occurs. Any attachment the woman experiences is one-sided and pathological by definition. It’s probably true that the exes of narcissists are more likely to be emotionally high strung.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Jackie,

Besides that, people spent so much of their time on survival or they didn’t live to extend their “craziness” the way we can today.

Maybe that’s true, maybe it isn’t. As someone who has been officially diagnosed as “crazy” and takes crazy meds, I suspect I would’ve had the same symptoms living in, say, West Africa. In fact, every day I thank my lucky stars my symptoms did not manifest themselves when I was studying abroad in a developing country; I can’t imagine I would’ve received the appropriate medical care.

Sassy6519

@ deti

I am not either. But I consider that you’re a self-described 8 who claims to be hot enough to date alpha men, and that this is the way you feel about it at this point in your life, at age 24. Given your attitude that you won’t settle (meaning you won’t COMPROMISE — there is a difference), I think you’d do well to avoid marriage.

Most women are not 8s, nor are they in grad school, nor do they have promising careers ahead of them. Most women can only ONS alpha men. Most women have no hope of locking down such a desirable man for commitment.

Most women have an SMV of between 4 and 7. Somewhere between the ages of 25 and 50 they will all will lose at least 2 of those SMV points. Most want to marry a suitable man. Further, there aren’t nearly enough male 8s, 9s and 10s to marry all the women who want them — and that would be true even if every single one of those men wanted to get married and stayed married.

I appreciate your honesty. Would that more women were as self-aware. I think most women feel the way you do, but are hopelessly unrealistic about the difference between what they can have for a night, and what they can have for a lifetime. And that is the source of their pain and frustration.

I agree with you. It does explain a lot of the frustration women feel in today’s SMP.

I wouldn’t say, however, that I am unwilling to compromise. I think I’ve had this discussion before, so I don’t see the need to rehash the whole thing again. In my opinion, there is a vast amount of difference between “settling” and “compromising”. I am willing to compromise, but I am unwilling to settle.

@ Cooper

Your confirming exactly what deti is saying.

That you’d much rather ramain in the SMP (and sleep with men at your SMV), than to ever marry at your MMV.

” If I fail, it will suck, but I will survive.”

And what if, one day, you change your mind?

1. I’m not out randomly sleeping with men at my SMV, though I can’t say that I haven’t been tempted. I like sex, so it’s like turning down my favorite food when I am hungry. Lord knows that my N count could be astronomically higher than it is based solely on the amount of male attention I receive.

2. Are you asking me what will happen if I decide that I do want to be married and not alone, the particular man be damned? I don’t think that will happen. If it did, I’d think something was seriously wrong with me. On the other hand, I focus a great deal of attention on my physical appearance, and will most likely continue doing so. If I ever become desperate enough to marry a man that I don’t particularly like, I’m sure I could pull it off. I may not be very attracted to a man, but I’d consider being with him if he had enough money to compensate for the lack of attraction.

That’s a very cutthroat way of looking at things, but I’ve never been particularly keen on sappy sentiments.

Passer_By

“But Ashkenazi women have a mixture of Euro/middle eastern genes. Shouldn’t they fall midway between?”

Perhaps my data sampling (either askenazi jew or middle eastern) is nonrepresentative. However, I’m not convinced that there is a whole lot of middle eastern decent in ashkenazi jews. Seems more like an eastern euro tribe that was converted by a few jews from the middle east. But I’m no geneticist. Just a really high quality internet crank theorist.

Also, for what it’s worth, I have heard a stereotype about jewish guys that way.

deti

“I see all kinds of unhealthy stuff being sold on the Manosphere. So much of it is inaccurate and so much of it perpetuates fear-mongering and hatefulness.”

What kind of “unhealthy stuff” is sold in the manosphere? What is inaccurate? What perpetuates “fear mongering and hatefulness”?

What do you make of the Katy Perry song accompanied by the video in which she portrays an old woman, still pining away for her badboy lover who perished young in a car-over-the-cliff accident? Doesn’t that depict the pathology some women display?

Do you doubt that there are some women who are “Alpha Widows”? I will accept that alpha widowhood is a strong indication of batshit crazy and not a result of instantaneous oxytocin bonding. Can you accept the notion that there are some women out there who never “get over” a superalpha lover and it damages a marriage to what she perceives as a lesser man?

Can you accept the notion that a woman’s higher N increases the chance that she’s got an alpha out there she might not have gotten over?

Can you accept the notion that such a woman isn’t a good bet for marriage and that men should be on the lookout for that kind of pathology?

J

Elaboration please.

Let google be your friend, Lokland. Read and form your own opinion. I’d hate to influence that.

Jackie

@deti

” Believe me, Jackie, I know what my dysfunctions are. I have them thrown in my face all day, every minute of every day, by my family, my employer, the media, and the culture. There has been scant little information about what the female role in relationships is, and in the SMP at large. ”
====
deti, two things:

First, I am sorry that has happened to you. No one likes having things “thrown in [their] face all day, every minute of the day.” That sounds hellish.

I hope you will stop and ask yourself if these dysfunctions are true, or agenda-driven. What proof can the media and culture have on the specific dysfunctions of deti? If there is no proof, how can it be true and not agenda-driven? If they are agenda-driven, get mad (justifiably!) with the corrupt system.

But not with your fellow travellers (men and women), who are probably experiencing the same thing.

Second: In regards to the “scant information” on the female role: What percentage of relationship advice is targeted to women in the culture? Because just about everything I see — books, magazines, products– is about how to get a man or keep a man.

Trust me, deti, the crap is being flung both ways. I used to feel SO BADLY when I would read here and the manosphere because it was all about how women need to be hotter, picking apart supermodels and trashing the same girls who slept with them.

The job is to stop flinging crap and start telling people the truth –and I think the truth is more complex than the m-sphere would like–in a way that respects them.

J

Then, a different Ted starting posting some not-so-lovely things regarding women. I was s-o-o-o confused

Yeah, our Ted has some pretty broad swings that way.

I know my opinion is not important to you, and that there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says, but I decided to add my $.02 anyway.

I’m a middle-aged mother of two.

Ramble

I may not be very attracted to a man, but I’d consider being with him if he had enough money to compensate for the lack of attraction.

Exactly how honest would you be with this hypothetical man? Would you tell him, before any marriage, that you did not find him attractive but that you liked his money?

J

While I’m sure that you’ll have Aristotelian reason to disagree, I believe most moral codes of the type you are suggesting are borne out of the need to avoid bad consequences. Sex out of wedlock was undoubtedly condemned as sinful and immoral in major religions because of the obvious consequences of fatherless children and destitute mothers. You can’t bring back those moral codes without the consequences.

Exactly. It took broad social, medical and economic changes to get us here. In some ways, we will never be able to go back. I imagine that, as the economy tightens and there is less government support, there will be fewer OOW births (and more abortion). As long as the Pill exists, there will be pre-marital sex.

Jackie

@Olive

That’s a really good point. I will say, though, my sister is in South Africa where they do have universal healthcare and she’s gotten some things much easier than she would have in the US!

Ted D

Jackie – “In regards to the “scant information” on the female role: What percentage of relationship advice is targeted to women in the culture? Because just about everything I see — books, magazines, products– is about how to get a man or keep a man. ”

And Jackie, how much of all that womanly advice is correct? Even healthy?! I see a lot of trash advice and not very little real substance when standing in line at the grocery…
J – LOL. I hate to say it, but what you see are NOT swings from one extreme to the other. I can and do hold different views of issues at the same time with ease. For example: I can believe that “people” suck, but surely I know people that are exceptional specimines of what humanity has to offer. I fully recognize that my wife has many wonderful qualities, but under all that she is still a woman. I may believe that most/many/all women are hypergamous, but my wife has proved to me she can control hers.

So, I can with no sense of guilt or disonance say that women are hypgergamous WITHOUT seeing it as a dig on my wife. She is my wife first, and a woman second. Wife trumps woman every time.

Susan – “If a man does not feel that his wife is head over heels for him and wanting to sex him up on a very regular basis, he should not marry. No man should marry unless he literally feels worshipped and adored. ”

LOL OK. But, do we as a society even encourage women to “worship and adore” their BF/Husbands? Because honestly, I grew up NOT to expect such a thing, because it was implied “worship and adoration” meant “subserviant” and we just can’t have women in the lesser role.

Not being snarky, I’m 100% serious. I would have NEVER in a million years expected this from a woman before the Red Pill, because I was taught NOT to expect it. Sure, I can look back now and see all kinds of red flags I missed with my ex, but I missed them because I was directed to by society, the Church, and my own family. She had doubts, and so did I. Do you know what everyone, and I mean EVERYONE said? “that’s normal! Everyone has doubts when getting married. Its just nerves!” Well, 13 years and a divorce proved otherwise I guess. Stupid me for listening to those I thought knew better.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted D

Perhaps worshipped and adored is not the best choice of language, if it implies submission. That is not what I meant. I think that a man or a woman should know with 100% certainty that their SO is deeply in love with them, not desirous of being with anyone else, invested in spending a lifetime together, physically attracted, admiring, sexy, etc. The whole package. One doesn’t necessarily have to marry for love, but if that’s what you’re doing it for, then you need to know what being in love looks like. It really is about being a bit crazy, i.e. “I’m crazy about him.”

Jackie

@deti

deti, i have to run in a minute and will try to respond to you later tonight. i don’t think we’re far apart in our beliefs– but i am less swayed by popular culture’s ability to depict authenticity than you are, i think.

Sassy6519

@ Ramble

Exactly how honest would you be with this hypothetical man? Would you tell him, before any marriage, that you did not find him attractive but that you liked his money?

Honestly, probably not. I would already be lying to him by entertaining the idea of marrying him, or even by dating him. I would be feigning interest in him the entire time. The point of marrying him wouldn’t be for attraction. It would be to gain the title of being married, not to mention avoiding being alone. At that point, one more lie wouldn’t be hard to tell.

I’m reminded of Hugh Hefner/Crystal Harris and Anna Nicole Smith/her husband. Those are both examples of very strategic gold-diggers. If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.

Cooper

@Sassy

Sorry, you just provoke a knee-jerk reaction in me with things you say, sometimes.
I have to remind myself that “what you want” isn’t necessarily “what you can’t get.” I’m sometimes quick to assume that attractive = unavailable, when it comes to women wishing to remain single.

It’s not wonder why (some) guys have a preference for low-N, cause we know full-well that most women can sleep with men they wouldn’t be able to receive commitment from. So when (some) women talk about “not settling” it comes off as entitlement towards wanting to marry the same men that they can get via casual sex. When in reality a women is bound to have to aim slightly lower than her hookups for commitment.

Men are looking to essentially ‘lock it down,’ and we feel like 1. we much more likely to be inadequate if the woman has had a bunch of sex, at her SMV-level. And 2. That her decision to keep sleeping around at her SMV-level indicates either A. She isn’t very aware, if she doesn’t see it B. she has disassociated emotional from physical intimacy. Which guys believe run risks in the long-term.

Tl;dr – you evoke outbursts from me, which I realize may not be accurate to you in particular.

” I may not be very attracted to a man, but I’d consider being with him if he had enough money to compensate for the lack of attraction.”

*Gol..*. Ah, nvm.

Lokland

@Susan, deti

“That’s the real issue. Women don’t want to have sex with men who have vaginas. If we’re sexually attracted to femininity, there’s a more direct route.”

Yup.

A woman who is pining away for a past boyfriend is either;
a) bat shit crazy (in which case their is no solution)
b) hubby is a pussy (solution possible)
c) or some combo of the above.

I suspect most women COULD start pining away for a past lover if hubby fell to low in dominance but this amount would vary depending on the woman’s own level of bat shit craziness.

Lokland

@J

“Let google be your friend, Lokland. Read and form your own opinion. I’d hate to influence that.”

You took to long.
Prior opinion confirmed.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Jackie,
Awesome, I’m sure some medical care is great in other countries! I’m doubtful about psychiatric care. Consider that I did not receive appropriate medical attention and was not diagnosed correctly until I went to Johns Hopkins, which is arguably one of the best hospitals in the world (also where my mom had cancer treatments! My family is so lucky to live nearby).

J

Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?

The problem is that this corner of the net aggregates men who married women who were either batshit crazy or users. In some cases, a lack of judgment on the man’s part was a factor. While I have no doubt that deti, who has come to speak for those guys, had the experience he says he had, I question why it needs to color the experiences of others.

HanSolo

@Deti 1162

This recent song is totally about a woman who falls in love with a gangster alpha badboy and “will love [him] til the end of time” and that she’d wait a million years for him even though she hasn’t seen him since.

Lana Del Rey – Blue Jeans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvgfVbnpeQs

Also, I know a girl who was a virgin and had sex with a guy once she had fallen in love with and still writes him every so often, pining after him, wishing he would fall in love with her, even though she has a boyfriend she says she wants to marry.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Keep in mind that songs are written to sell, not to express the real experience of the singer or songwriter. That’s why songs that speak about undying love and obsession are very popular – we’d all like to think we could have that kind of power, as well as that kind of heady experience. Those are big emotions that everyone can relate to.

In the pining genre, my favorite is Jar of Hearts:

It’s autobiographical – she walks away.

J

@lokland

You took too long. Prior opinion confirmed.

LOL. You googled? Fascinating, no?

Lokland

@J

Eyebrow raising, thats for sure.

Iggles

@ Ted D:

This strikes me as a social-type reaction to oppostion, so it isn’t surprising I missed it. I don’t think you purposely mislead anyone, and frankly I wouldn’t even say you mislead anyone at all. But, to me that still doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t know the whole truth.

That’s your opinion as to what the “whole truth” is. It’s very subjective to say when you disagree the other person isn’t saying the whole truth. We’re own prone to do this, FTR, but is does come across as derailing when you come to someone’s blog, argue against them. You say that your intent isn’t to cause waves but to spread the “truth” in your view, but to the other person you are undermining their words.

I don’t have an answer for how to proceed. I just wanted to point out you can’t have it both ways. We all have opinions but constantly arguing the opposite is being disruptive.

@ Ion:

Of course I believe it’s pop culture that’s pushed the rumors to a degree that size matters…and it mainly matters to women on the carousel. Women who are restricted aren’t going to “stretch” unless frequent sex has stretched them.

This is interesting.

I don’t know if mostly unrestricted women are size queens, but I’d wager the correlation is there between casual sex and large size preference. Gay men tend to be size queens and they engage in casual sex at much higher rates than the general population. (Also fun fact: The average penis size for gay men is larger than the size for straight men. This means gay men have bigger dongs!)

FWIW, I am not a size queen. Average size is fine for me (5″ – 6″). I would rather pick a guy who is on smaller side of spectrum than one who is bigger! IMO, girth is where it’s at! Thick > thin

J

I’m reminded of Hugh Hefner/Crystal Harris and Anna Nicole Smith/her husband. Those are both examples of very strategic gold-diggers. If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.

People rag on those women, but I say they derserve every penny they got and more. I personally won’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis until I’m 65/75/85. I’m sure I’ll be fantastic at it though since, at some point, I should be able to remove my teeth first.

Ted D

J – “While I have no doubt that deti, who has come to speak for those guys, had the experience he says he had, I question why it needs to color the experiences of others.”

Why does Deti coming here to speak his mind have to “color the experiences” of others? People should decide for their own damn selves what to put their faith in. Deti is simply doing what I and everyone else here does: speak from their own experiences. So what if Deti thinks all women can become an alpha widow? If you don’t believe him, ignore it. Or, go out and jump a few alphas and see where it gets you.

I cannot understand why so many people here are gung ho for all the positive stuff posted, but get pissy about the negative. Life isn’t always peachy ya know?

For my part, I don’t come here with fire and brimstone hoping to “color” anyone’s experience. I’m hoping that in fact my ranting might save them FROM having one of those experiences, by learning to avoid the mistakes I made along the way. I get the impression that Deti is coming from the same angle much of the time, but somehow everyone seems to completely miss the genuine desire to HELP PEOPLE by demonstrating what NOT to do.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I cannot understand why so many people here are gung ho for all the positive stuff posted, but get pissy about the negative. Life isn’t always peachy ya know?

I don’t think anyone gets pissy about negative problems they perceive are real. I know that I am less inclined to engage in debate when the premise is one that I believe is applicable to a very small number of people. Why discuss what sex-positive non-cisgendered feminists are doing – who they have sex with, whether they plan to marry, what their careers are, etc. They may pose a problem for society, but as I keep saying, I’m not writing to solve society’s problems. I don’t know how to do that. We can all say what we would like to see happen, but unless I can see some practical application, I’m not particularly interested.

I’m far more interested in responding to a letter like ALW sent this week, and helping her figure out how to navigate a very difficult culture and circumstance.

Iggles

Typos! Meant to say:

“We’re all prone to do this, FTR..”*

Ted D

Iggles – “That’s your opinion as to what the “whole truth” is. It’s very subjective to say when you disagree the other person isn’t saying the whole truth.”

Well, if this is where you are coming from, then we need to start talking philosophy about what IS truth. because unless we are discussing gravity, which can be easily proven, “truth” is highly subjective and a matter of perspective. To me, only glossing over the good stuff and ignoring the bad IS NOT the truth. Perhaps I’m unique in that I don’t want people to tell me what is right or wrong. I want people to preset the situation completely, and let ME decide what is right/wrong FOR ME. I can’t do that if I only hear “the good stuff” and none of the bad.

Does that make sense? I’m not saying anyone here is wrong. I’m saying that right OR wrong, there are always many sides to an issue, and presenting an issue without discussing ALL the sides is disingenous to me.

I can’t tell you how many times I have to start a sentence with “I’m not saying you’re wrong but…” in real life. I simply cannot stand watching people base decisions on incomplete or faulty information. I want the good, the bad, and the ugly all laid bare, and then as an individual I can asses what it means to me, and what if anything I want to do about it.

J

However, I’m not convinced that there is a whole lot of middle eastern decent in ashkenazi jews. Seems more like an eastern euro tribe that was converted by a few jews from the middle east. But I’m no geneticist. Just a really high quality internet crank theorist.

LOL. I’d say that you are. Khazars? Srsly?

The human genome project seems to prove that Ashkenazi Jews are just whom they have always thought they were–middle-easterners whose great-grandmothers were raped by Cossacks and whose great-grandfathers banged the occasionally Polish maid. Full-blooded Ashkenazis are similar to black Americans in that, while there is sizeable admixture from the majority population, they are still a discrete and identifiable group. Other research shows Ashkenazi Jews to carry markers similar to those carried by Palestinian Arabs. There is also research that indicates that something like 60% of modern Askenazi Jews are descended from the same four middle-eastern women.

Also, for what it’s worth, I have heard a stereotype about jewish guys that way.

I’ve actually heard the opposite though I doubt it’s true. OTOH, I’d assume the claims of penile chosen-ness are just a nasty rumor started by Jewish men.

Interestingly I’ve heard that Arab men are quite well endowed. One would expect Sephardic Jews to be similar. That would argue for the ability of Sephardic women to accomodate them, I think.

deti

LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!

Mike C comes here and says there shouldn’t be a problem with a 35 YO man’s preference for dating a 23 YO woman, and all hell breaks loose.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!

Mike C comes here and says there shouldn’t be a problem with a 35 YO man’s preference for dating a 23 YO woman, and all hell breaks loose.

That’s not true! That meets the divide in half and add seven rule! We’re very open here about the peak of beauty and fertility. I wrote about it just last week, that’s not controversial. We have had some controversy around men over 40 hitting on teens, it’s true.

As for a 70 year old penis, I expect to have one in my mouth in about 12 years.

Ted D

Susan – “Keep in mind that songs are written to sell, not to express the real experience of the singer or songwriter”

Surely! But, why exactly is a song like that popular IF many people do NOT find something that resontates in it? Unless you are implying that most people don’t even bother to understand what the lyrics of a song actually mean. YOu might be right, but if so then it kinda confirms a lot of my problems with “people”. There isn’t a song, book, or movie *I* listen to , read, or watch that contains a message contrary to my outlook on life. I will literally change the radio station when that song comes on, because I find the subject distasteful. Even better? Christina Agularia’s new song. I actually think as a piece of pop mucis it is pretty damn good, but I refuse to listen to it because the subject is her going out to score a ONS to “get over” a past lover. To me, promoting such an idea is irresponsible, and trashy. So, I don’t support it by listening despite the fact that I actually think it is a decent music.

Sassy6519

@ Cooper

Sorry, you just provoke a knee-jerk reaction in me with things you say, sometimes.

Tl;dr – you evoke outbursts from me, which I realize may not be accurate to you in particular.

I had a similar dynamic with Jesus Mahoney for quite a long time. You are my new victim.

Mwahahahahaha!

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/ Bastiat Blogger

From Sassy: “If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.”

-Is it too late to submit 2012 Quote of the Year candidates?

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Susan,
I want to comment on this particular passage because it’s a really good example of how you sometimes use data that say one thing and expand them to indicate something more.

A good example is the idea of “carousel watching.” This makes no sense, as women who want to have sex with alphas are usually able to do so easily.

I actually think THIS is a manosphere meme. It is not simply a matter of a 5 or 6 walking up to the hottest guy on campus, using her feminine wiles, and succeeding in getting his pants simply because he wants to have sex with as many women as possible.

There’s this weird idea in the sphere that any woman can have sex with a hot guy, and at the risk of stirring up controversy, I would like to reject that notion. Hot guys have their choice of women, they can afford to be picky and still get around. Maybe if a hottie was on a desert island with a 6, he’d get with her, but what is often ignored is that hookups occur in a social context. Female intrasexual competition is a strong presence, and at the end of the day, the coupling often breaks down in an assortative manner.

I’d actually be interested in the opinion of someone like Zach, though, as he strikes me as someone who is right in the thick of it and can basically have his choice of the ladies.

The idea of other women looking on longingly doesn’t ring true to me, and I’ve never observed it.

It’s not exactly observable. I really wish I had stats on the amount of students who get hookups proportionate to the amount of students who go out on a given weekend, but I don’t. I will argue, however, that it’s actually quite small… so why do so many students continue to go out? This is what the carousel effect is. People go out because they HOPE to hook up (that’s what the drinking is usually about, yes?) but my guess is that a girl will get one hookup a semester, if that. But it’s not that she disapproves of hookups 99% of the time and suddenly changes her mind on that 1%, it’s that she spends a lot of time hoping for something that she can’t have.

In fact, I’ve never heard it anywhere but in the sphere, from men.

I’ve actually been a big proponent of this theory. It goes along with what I observed in college, but also does not conflict with the data.

In fact, there is a lot of data that shows that 80% of college women avoid casual sex and disapprove of it.

Susan, this right here is EXACTLY what I mean about making inferences from the data that just aren’t specific enough for these inferences to be valid. You have thoroughly convinced me that 80% of college women (and men) have very few partners, but I do not remember reading any hard data about 80% of college women who actively disapprove and seek to avoid casual encounters. You cannot conclude, just from partner count data, that these 80% completely eschew casual (and by casual, I don’t just mean sex, but also makeouts and all the stuff in between that wasn’t necessarily included in the data).

Now, it’s highly possible that, given the choice, 80% of women would choose traditional dating over the hookup scene any day. I actually don’t really doubt that, a lot of people aren’t happy with hookup culture. BUT this still does not mean that these women ALWAYS avoid frat parties and bars with dance floors and the like. Carousel watching is not just about “longing,” it’s also about mixed feelings. “I’m here with my friends, I don’t really want to get down with anyone, but oh hey, my friend just got this guy to dance with me and wait! is he making out with me now? crap I told myself this would never happen and I actually kinda like it.” That internal narrative represents the beginning of my entire foray into hookup culture.

So here’s another “meme” that has been repeated again and again until it appears to have some semblance of validity. In point of fact, it’s baseless.

Hm, I think you’d have to present a better argument to convince me it was baseless.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Olive

I actually think THIS is a manosphere meme. It is not simply a matter of a 5 or 6 walking up to the hottest guy on campus, using her feminine wiles, and succeeding in getting his pants simply because he wants to have sex with as many women as possible.

I said alpha, not hot. Have you never noticed how many ugly alpha athletes and frat guys there are? They’re no better looking than anyone else – most of them are average. Alpha means dominant, not good looking. There are tons of cute betas and deltas who don’t get offers for casual sex.

We know from the data that the average college guy who considers himself a player gets with three girls per year. I suspect most of the guys below the mean are fairly unattractive guys who are happy to settle for a fairly unattractive girl, or even a very unattractive girl, for a ONS.

The survey Zach submitted, which broke out sex partners by frats and athletes showed something similar – they were slightly ahead of the rest of the guys on campus, but not by a lot. And the guys on campus with the highest N were neither.

I will argue, however, that it’s actually quite small… so why do so many students continue to go out? This is what the carousel effect is. People go out because they HOPE to hook up (that’s what the drinking is usually about, yes?) but my guess is that a girl will get one hookup a semester, if that. But it’s not that she disapproves of hookups 99% of the time and suddenly changes her mind on that 1%, it’s that she spends a lot of time hoping for something that she can’t have.

Women go out in hopes of finding a guy to be a boyfriend. Hookups are the way college women go about that. We know that three quarters of women go into a hookup specifically hoping it will build to a relationship. Some women may go about that by pursuing a top male, but I think most girls are well aware of which guys don’t commit. A girl who is looking for a ONS with the best-looking guy in the frat is probably doing it for the novelty, the social cred and the validation. She knows he is not going to date her. So I think you’re off on this.

Susan, this right here is EXACTLY what I mean about making inferences from the data that just aren’t specific enough for these inferences to be valid. You have thoroughly convinced me that 80% of college women (and men) have very few partners, but I do not remember reading any hard data about 80% of college women who actively disapprove and seek to avoid casual encounters.

I didn’t infer anything. Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t mean I didn’t write about it. Now I have to go dig it all up, dammit.

1. 11% of my respondents expressed unequivocal enjoyment of
hookup culture.
• 50% were having hook ups, but were doing it rather
ambivalently or reluctantly, some with extremely negative
experiences.
• For them, hooking up was a price they were willing to pay for
the opportunity to have sex and the small possibility that a string of
hookups would lead to a relationship.
• And 38% opted out of hooking up altogether.
Less than 1% maintained a committed relationship.

(The Promise and Peril of Hook Up “Culture”
Lisa Wade, PhD
Department of Sociology
Occidental College)

2. 66% of women hook up to get a relationship (Paula England survey of 20K students)

3. “95 percent of female students said they would choose dating over hooking up, and 77.5 percent of men said the same.” (Washington Post, 5/9/10)

4. “Sixty-eight percent of the sampled sexually active college students regretted at least one sexual encounter. These results are consistent with the Oswalt et al. (2005) study that reported 72% of participants indicated sexual regret. (note: this applies to both men and women; women expressed more regret than men, though the number was not specified.)

Seaman (2005) found that females in his study tried to legitimize the relationship after a hookup encounter.

The results of this study provide insight as to how students could experience dissonance and regret, yet continue to engage in hookup behaviors. Over half the respondents (63%) reduced their dissonance by changing an attitude or behavior. Examples of changing a behavior included attending less parties or drinking less alcohol. By doing so, their behaviors were able to become consonant with their attitudes. Some respondents changed their attitudes by changing their sexual attitudes from conservative to more liberal. (HOOKING UP ON CAMPUS: COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AND SEXUAL REGRET AMONG COLLEGE STUDENTS )

(The bolded part speaks to the point you made about women drinking in order to hook up, a common practice.)

There is so much more, but these citations should suffice. I await your apology.

That internal narrative represents the beginning of my entire foray into hookup culture.

I understand that was your personal experience, and that you are not alone. It does not negate my statement about what 80% of college women feel about hooking up. They do disapprove of it, and they do avoid it. That doesn’t mean they’ve never made out with someone on a dance floor or even that they’ve never had sex. However, the data is very clear on hookups – there just are not very many people having them, and research shows that both men and women perceive them negatively.

J

If you’re saying a woman can’t bond to an ONS after having mind-blowing sex with him, I disagree. Oxytocin is released in a woman after orgasm. So if she has multiple orgasms with SuperStud One Night Stand Dude who pushes all her buttons just right, some kind of bonding probably happens, don’t you think, particularly if the science supports bonding following oxytocin release.

Wow! Where is this Wonder Stud? AFAICT, most ONS are pretty disappointing for women. It look me years to train DH to “push all my buttons just right” and stop doing shit that pleased some other woman. IME, the more investment a man has in pleasing a woman, the more likely she is to have an oxytocin releasing experience. Though it’s probably not something anyone would want to see video of, I have to say that the best sex I’ve had involves a quarter century investment on DH’s part.

I really think you overgeneralize from your own bad experience and have built many layers of protective pseudo-science and rationalization around that overgeneralization. I also think you’d be happier if you realized that.(Sorry if that sounds harsh, pls consider it an early Xmas tough love present.)

J

LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!

Dude, who’s dishing about not wanting to do that?! I wouldn’t have wanted to do that as a younger woman and certainly don’t feel ready to do it now, but some toothless 69 is definitely in my future–provided of course that neither of us drops dead first.

Well, actually I’ll get implants rather than dentures….

INTJ

@ Susan

We have had some controversy around men over 40 hitting on teens, it’s true.

If you’re referring to the Desidirius lifeguard incident, you need to stop going on about that. Desi didn’t hit on anyone. The teen hit on Desi, and he did not accept her advances.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

If you’re referring to the Desidirius lifeguard incident, you need to stop going on about that. Desi didn’t hit on anyone. The teen hit on Desi, and he did not accept her advances.

Actually, I was referring to the stories some women here shared about being harassed in their early teens while babysitting and by friends’ fathers. I was one of them. Perhaps coincidentally, Desi got quite peeved at these stories and hasn’t been seen since. I did just see this comment by him at Alpha Game:

I get attention from fat/ugly women, but I also get it from very together/attractive fifty-year-olds and fourteen-year-olds. In neither case is an actual proposition being made not would it be accepted, we’re just enjoying the mutual appreciation/natural biological response.

Readers may form their own conclusions.

Passer_By

@J

“The human genome project seems to prove that Ashkenazi Jews are just whom they have always thought they were–middle-easterners whose great-grandmothers were raped by Cossacks and whose great-grandfathers banged the occasionally Polish maid.”

Ok, Mr. Internet Crank stands corrected . . . for now

Maybe the cossacks who were rapists had unusually big ones. However, I’m not so sure how interbreeding proves rape in all instances. This isn’t something that happened over the last 100 or 200 years, so the great grandmother thing is a little off (though I know you probably didnt mean it literally).

“Interestingly I’ve heard that Arab men are quite well endowed. One would expect Sephardic Jews to be similar. That would argue for the ability of Sephardic women to accomodate them, I think.”

My middle eastern sampling included neither, so it’s probably not terribly useful. However, I recall once seeing a world map of penile size. So, I googled for it and found it. See link below. I have no idea how they gathered data or if they just made it up, but it seems to generally support my assessments other than as to ashkenazi jews (although my pure speculation about hispanics and south asian women/men was obviously off, with hispanics being larger than speculated and south asian smaller). It doesn’t really measure askenazi jews specifically, but Israel on the whole doesn’t appear very large (actually lower than most european countries). Don’t know if that means I’m wrong on the ashkenazis or if the sephardic and persian jews and arab israelis are bringing them down. Or maybe the big dicked jews were more likely to be rugged individualists who came to America instead of Israel. Maybe the so-called “reformed” jews (more secular) who I would have contact with have bigger dicks than those needle dicked haidic and other orthodox jews.

Also, on the whole, the arabs don’t fare very well, other than a few north african arab countries, the reasons for which should be fairly obvious ;).

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=3073

Sassy6519

LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!

Mike C comes here and says there shouldn’t be a problem with a 35 YO man’s preference for dating a 23 YO woman, and all hell breaks loose.

Notice that I never jumped on the bandwagon of that conversation. I accept that men like/prefer younger women. That isn’t news to me at all. I never complained about it either.

Cooper

@deti

On top of that, we occasionally have female readers comment on how they don’t like reading here because of the notions men put forth such as women having a “best before date” (from over 30 women), and how discouraging it is to read about how strict men are over weight (from presumably heavier women)

Yet, we have all the girls here talking about being “size Queens,” how their “sweet spot” is above the male-average and how much girth matters.

Of course, me taking issues with this much mean I have teeny weenie.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Yet, we have all the girls here talking about being “size Queens,” how their “sweet spot” is above the male-average and how much girth matters.

Isn’t Sassy the only woman here who said she cares a lot about size?

Generalizing to all women based on Sassy’s input is a dangerous thing to do.

deti

“Wow! Where is this Wonder Stud? AFAICT, most ONS are pretty disappointing for women”

Then why does damn near every woman I’ve ever talked to with an N of 2 or more have at least one in her sexual history?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Then why does damn near every woman I’ve ever talked to with an N of 2 or more have at least one in her sexual history?

The female orgasm rate during a ONS is very low. See Tracy Clark Flory for details. You should ignore what women say and find out what they do.

Ted D

Susan – “They may pose a problem for society, but as I keep saying, I’m not writing to solve society’s problems. ”

Well, you kinda are though. Because you want women to find the men they want. And, they can’t do that if those men don’t exist. Like I said above, if women want “nicer” men, then society is going to have to promote men to be “nicer”. There is just no way getting around this to me.

All of this “society” stuff ties together into one giant, tangled web we’ve weaved over the last 50 years. There is NO WAY to solve the problem of women not finding the right kind of men without untangling all the strands and figuring out why those men don’t seem to exist. What you see as unrelated, I see as directly related. Maybe not in an individual sense, but in the greater scope. At the macro level, the issues you are concerned with simply can’t be fixed without some major overhauls. Can you successfully help AWL? Perhaps. But, certainly not all of them by picking through the entire pool of men to find that one gem. How many gems really exist?

Sassy6519

@ Passer_By

Clearly, I need to move to Hungary.

deti

Coop: what is a “best before date”?

And the so-called “fat acceptance” movement is no such thing. It is a fat WOMEN acceptance movement. I don’t see anyone out there insisting that women date fat men. Didn’t Susan just talk about how gross she Ron Perelman was?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@deti

No woman here is suggesting men date fat women. I certainly never have. We’ve talked about this – you’re complaining about a group of women that is not represented here.

Also, as I’ve already clarified, I highlighted Perelman because he is such an awful guy, and “boor” was the operative noun. I would not pick out and mock some good husband who was a bit portly.

Ted D

Cooper – “Of course, me taking issues with this much mean I have teeny weenie.”

LOL man. I’ve never gotten a complaint myself, but I’ll fully admit that I’ve worked very hard at learning to use the tool I was given to my best ability. I really can’t imagine there is much in the way of technique necessary when a guy is sporting a baseball bat. I mean, can you even use the whole thing?! I always get the mental picture of a guy and a gal on the bed separated by a foot of space because he can’t get any damn closer.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I always get the mental picture of a guy and a gal on the bed separated by a foot of space because he can’t get any damn closer.

Well this was my loud laughter outburst for the day. Hilarious.

Society’s Disposable Son

Pining away done punk rock style… If you like the The Ramones you might might like these guys.

Teenage Bottlerocket- Crawling Back To You

Iggles

INTJ,

I think it’s in bounds to bring up the inappropriateness of that situation. Desi also argued that it’s perfectly okay and even “helpful” for young girls to flirt with older men to hone their flirting skills. As a teacher he that outlook places him in a precarious position (all it would take for him – a 40 something unmarried male teacher – to get tarred and feathers is for one girl with an unrequited crush to claim that he crossed a line. Teenager girls can be quite vindictive when they want to be!).

It may be innocent in his view, but most of the women on HUS disagree with his views on this.

http://www.rosehope.com Hope

If oxytocin release is all that’s required for bonding, then I should be deeply bonded to the breast pump since it’s what causes massive amounts of oxytocin release and milk letdown in me.

Hormones and neurochemicals don’t act in straight pathways of A to B to C. It’s a more complex process than that.

Incidentally when I have the milk letdown response as I’m pumping, I often think about my husband.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

If oxytocin release is all that’s required for bonding, then I should be deeply bonded to the breast pump since it’s what causes massive amounts of oxytocin release and milk letdown in me.

LMAO

J

@Ted #1186

Certainly anyone has a right to post as they please, and people can believe it or not. OTOH, if you are looking for honest feedback to your question about how you come off, I’d say that sweeter Ted seems like happier Ted. The “other” Ted seems insecure and stuck in the past. I worry that he prevents you from fully enjoying what you have. You are not the only male poster who does this, however.

In hearing you guys constantly repeat the same stuff, I begin to lose some of my sympathy. I just want to shake you guys and make you move on.

Look, I’ve been pretty open about my own past and that of my husband. Both of us were fcuked over by the very people, we had most reason to trust. We both have ample reason to hold on to grudges, to mistrust, to be angry, to wallow in the past. However, we wouldn’t have what we have if we hadn’t consciously decided to move on. Sometimes, you just have to fold up a losing hand and walk away from the table. There’s a core group of men in this corner of the net who can’t or won’t do that. It’s sad.

Iggles

@ Cooper:

Yet, we have all the girls here talking about being “size Queens,” how their “sweet spot” is above the male-average and how much girth matters.

I commented that I wasn’t a size queen. However, I did mention girth

Ion also said she didn’t prefer guys on the huge side. I only recall Sassy agreeing to being a size queen.

Though, I understand your overall point. Both genders are discussing things that can make the other one uncomfortable.

Passer_By

@cooper

“Yet, we have all the girls here talking about being “size Queens,” how their “sweet spot” is above the male-average and how much girth matters. ”

All? Or one? Sassy’s always made no bones (all puns intended) about her size fetish, and she never complained about male preferences (so far as I can recall). I have a preference for tits larger than the average, with a sweet-spot around D or close to it. Doesn’t mean I won’t enjoy banging the others, especially if those with great butts.

Sassy6519

@ Ted D

LOL man. I’ve never gotten a complaint myself, but I’ll fully admit that I’ve worked very hard at learning to use the tool I was given to my best ability. I really can’t imagine there is much in the way of technique necessary when a guy is sporting a baseball bat. I mean, can you even use the whole thing?! I always get the mental picture of a guy and a gal on the bed separated by a foot of space because he can’t get any damn closer.

TMI story time. Yay!

The last guy I dated (the actor) was 9″ long. My ex-bf of one year was 8″ long. There may be “a foot of space because he can’t get any damn closer” with some women, but that isn’t the case for me. While dating them respectively, I was able to fully accommodate both of them , and I was able to engage in some really interesting positions with each of them because of their sizes.

I’ve earned my “sit-n-spin” medal proudly, which was only possible because of their sizes (not to mention my ability to do the splits during sex).

Yay gymnastics! TMI over.

Passer_By

@J

“I’m sure I’ll be fantastic at it though since, at some point, I should be able to remove my teeth first.”

Good stuff!

@deti

I don’t see any contradiction in what they are saying. I don’t think any women here would object if a 30 year old guy didn’t want to go muff diving on a 70 year old woman. Maybe feministing would object, but not here.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I don’t think any women here would object if a 30 year old guy didn’t want to go muff diving on a 70 year old woman.

This made me throw up a little.

Passer_By

@J

“Wow! Where is this Wonder Stud? ”

Passer_By reporting for duty, mam!

Ted D

J – “if you are looking for honest feedback to your question about how you come off, I’d say that sweeter Ted seems like happier Ted. The “other” Ted seems insecure and stuck in the past. I worry that he prevents you from fully enjoying what you have. You are not the only male poster who does this, however. ”

I’m always open to feedback from you actually.

And again, you are sweet to worry about me. But I assure you, I am the happiest I have been in years at this point in my life. In fact, IF I was still stuck and unhappy, I probably wouldn’t be here posting much at all. When I’m deperessed I simply shut down. The fact that I’m ranting about anything probably means I’m in a decent mood. It’s a flaw or feature, but either way my “passion” for life tends to manifest in a “fire and brimstone” way regardless of my intentions. I don’t get excitedly happy. I can be absolutely overcome with joy, but on the outside you’d see a particulary goofy grin, and nothing more. But, get me talking about something I care about, and the result is pretty much intense passion and focus, almost to a fault honestly. I try to keep it in check, and believe it or not what you see here IS the “checked” version.

I do appriciate your concern. Honestly. But I feel better about my “lot in life” today than I have in the last two decades. And that is partly what drives me to continue on. I truly want everyone to feel the same, but I don’t really know any way to demonstrate that in a postivie message I guess. Blame it on Catholic school. They taught me that every message should have some guilt and fear in it.

deti

“if women want “nicer” men, then society is going to have to promote men to be “nicer”. There is just no way getting around this to me.

“All of this “society” stuff ties together into one giant, tangled web we’ve weaved over the last 50 years. There is NO WAY to solve the problem of women not finding the right kind of men without untangling all the strands and figuring out why those men don’t seem to exist. What you see as unrelated, I see as directly related. Maybe not in an individual sense, but in the greater scope. At the macro level, the issues you are concerned with simply can’t be fixed without some major overhauls.”

Yes. There are women who want “nice” men, but then reject those men when they are dropped into their laps.

Women can have sex with hot men, but can’t secure commitment from them.

No compromise. no willingness to find something good or worthy about the “nice” men.

Men stand and look, and say: Why? Why should I try?

Cooper

@Ted

It’s not a problem of mine. I just thought it was interesting that no one had mentioned it.

Ted D

Sassy – “I’ve earned my “sit-n-spin” medal proudly, which was only possible because of their sizes (not to mention my ability to do the splits during sex).”

And the award for causing liquid to fly from Ted D’s mouth and onto the desk today goes to: Sassy!

I swear you’d be one of the most interesting people in the world to hang out with in nightclub setting. You remind me a lot of my social circle actually: we are all pretty damn blunt (and some of us including myself maybe a little obnoxious) but we very rarely ever have “communication” problems. And there is absolutely NO WAY to even guess what might come out of someone’s mouth when we are “socializing”.

Ted D

Cooper – “It’s not a problem of mine. I just thought it was interesting that no one had mentioned it.”

OH sure! back out after I admitted I’m not hung like a horse. Shithead!

Ted D

Deti – “No compromise. no willingness to find something good or worthy about the “nice” men.

Men stand and look, and say: Why? Why should I try?”

Sure. You know I agree here. But this is still only one side of the equation. The other side is that we as a society simply DO NOT reward good behavior or traits. Women don’t want Nice Guys(TM), they want geniunely decent people that happen to have a penis. Many young men aren’t “decent” because they have little incentive TO be decent. And that leads to your observation that many men “stand and look, and say: Why?”

In a proper society, the answer to that quesiton would be: Because it is the right thing to do. But today? No one knows what is right or wrong, because no one has the guts to draw that line in the sand that TELLS us what is right or wrong. We can’t make people feel bad, we can’t tell people they are wrong. So, when everyone is right, everyone is wrong as well.

J

Then why does damn near every woman I’ve ever talked to with an N of 2 or more have at least one in her sexual history?

I don’t think you should make the assumption it’s every woman’s direct experience; we talk a lot amongst ourselves too. As to why, I think the average progression is unattached—->horny—> drunk—->sorry. It’s not really a matter of informed preference for most women.

My random sampling of women who have bragged and bitched to me does say though that the more sex a woman has with one particular guy, the better it gets. A good married sexual relationship is far better than you realize, and the proverbial “five minutes of Alpha” you worry we all pine for is generally not all that pleasant a memory for the average woman. You should take heart in that. Srsly.

HanSolo

@Ted D

I’ve never gotten a complaint myself, but I’ll fully admit that I’ve worked very hard at learning to use the tool

I think you should change your avatar to a Polish kielbasa! lol

Feelist

” Susan – “No, I know that it doesn’t. Oxytocin levels are just as high during masturbation.”

OK, so that leaves two theories for the “alpha widow” if they exist:
1. as stated above, it is the fact that the “alpha” never fully returned her interests in a commitment, and she still longs for it. (pathological?)
2. She isn’t pining for the “alpha”, but she IS pining for the massively orgasmic pounding the “alpha” gave her.

I can’t say I know any true “alpha widows”, but I’ve known plenty of women that pined away for a past lover, which may not be as extreme as the ‘sphere paints it, but does exist all the same.
”

Roissy says that 5 minutes of Alpha is far better than a lifetime of beta. If most women leave high school without their virginities, its safe to assume that most of them lost it to the Alpha(s) of the school, so would that not make women incapable of bonding/feel sexual attraction with and for the beta male(the beta male is the guy who is a 5)?

Cooper

“OH sure! back out after I admitted I’m not hung like a horse. Shithead!”

Ok, ok. I just meant it’s not something I worry about, at all. Not saying I’d ever attest to being Sassy’s calibre. Nor with SayWhaat, who mentioned she and her bf “get along fine” with his Xl Magnums.

I jus thought it was funny how the girls oh-so-modestly admit to being satisfied by there above average partners.

J

Desi also argued that it’s perfectly okay and even “helpful” for young girls to flirt with older men to hone their flirting skills.

It may be “helpful” for some girls in the sense that getting some old guy going is a bit of ego validation. But unless the guy is unusually handsome and youthful, the girl probably feels little or know attraction, just the “fun” of getting attention.

deti

“I don’t think you should make the assumption it’s every woman’s direct experience; we talk a lot amongst ourselves too.”

J, the more I hear from you, the more I conclude you and I just have no common frame of reference to even begin to have a discussion. Your reality, I must say, is starkly different from mine.

I am not making an assumption that every woman has had an ONS. I am talking about women who have fessed up to at least one; and IME it’s nearly every woman who has had sex.

I say again: Why? Why even try?

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

Incidentally when I have the milk letdown response as I’m pumping, I often think about my husband.

I barely pump but breastfeeding just makes me sleepy. I don’t think about anyone except a bed and a nice pillow and sleeping for a few hours. So I’m bonded to an inanimate object? That would be really weird porn :p

Just1Z

@Sassy
“The last guy I dated (the actor) was 9″ long”
Hell on earth, I pity his boyfriend (he was the gay one, wasn’t he?)
I see nappies in his future. (adult-depends? whatever you call them)

J

Thanks for taking my remarks in the right spirit, Ted.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

I am not making an assumption that every woman has had an ONS. I am talking about women who have fessed up to at least one; and IME it’s nearly every woman who has had sex.

Just for clarification: are you saying that nearly every woman who has had premarital sex has had a P in V ONS? That sounds…. off to me.

Just1Z

@Deti
it’s an empathy thing. I’m not making a personal statement, i.e. it’s not a J thing. I genuinely think that the majority of women do not care what the male experience is, even when that experience is being shared so that the women might navigate to a happier future.

I’ve seen it pointed out ‘elsewhere’ that even when conservative women ask ‘what about da menz?’, when you look more deeply they are only concerned about how menz’ problems impact the women.

It’s truly sad, but I think that it might be true. Very few women care about men in general, they might care about their men.

J

He’s just drawing parallels between the Roman Empire/Germans and present day U.S.

I know. I think it’s where his argument fails. At least in my town, a sizeable number of local Mexican immigrants are small business owners and may are married to white ethnic Catholics. Yes, there are lower SES folks too, but they seems hardworking for the most part. I just don’t worry much about hordes of maurading Mexican fry cooks and auto mechanics.

He’s assuming that we’ve hit peak cheap energy and are entering economic decline.

Yeah, we need to be aggressively pursuing other options.

Ted D

HanSolo – “I think you should change your avatar to a Polish kielbasa! lol”

ROFL! Actually I was considering changing it to a black sheep based on my role here this week, but I really didn’t want to offend Susan more than I have already.

Deti – “I am not making an assumption that every woman has had an ONS. I am talking about women who have fessed up to at least one; and IME it’s nearly every woman who has had sex.”

I’m thinking hard about this. My experience with “women confessing” to me is the same as yours. But I’m wondering if that is because the type of women that would “confess” such a thing is exactly the type to have done it AND have a beta orbiter or 10 hanging around. I must also confess that my sampling is skewed for a number of reasons:
1. many/most of these women came from the groupies and followers from my music days. It is easy to see why this group would be likely to have lots of Alpha experience.
2. My behavior in the past probably attracted exactly this type of woman.

The only reason I never tried my luck with them was my revulsion to their sexual choices, and the fact that I spent most of that time involved in LTRs. My beta orbitting wasn’t really based on my desire to get with these women, but the fact that I listened. I also wonder if at least some of them weren’t bumping my “shields” to see what I was made of. Most guys in music have egos larger than life, and I’m sure at least a few of them were confused by what appeared to be humility on my part. It wasn’t, I just don’t like people.

Not to say I was a rock star or anything. But, after seeing many generally sleazy guys in half-assed cover bands getting lots of play, it seems that for most success isn’t necessary to believe you are the shit.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

But I’m wondering if that is because the type of women that would “confess” such a thing is exactly the type to have done it

You’re funny.

Frankly, I cannot imagine telling any man about my ONSs and the quality of the sex therein (consistently poor). I’ve never told my husband, nor a good guy friend – that just strikes me as extremely odd. Several men here have had this experience, but I think it’s inappropriate and unseemly assuming these conversations didn’t happen 25 years ago.

I know I would not want my husband listening to tales of any woman’s sexual escapades.

Sassy6519

@ Just1Z

Hell on earth, I pity his boyfriend (he was the gay one, wasn’t he?)
I see nappies in his future. (adult-depends? whatever you call them)

Yes, he was the one that I suspected may have been secretly gay/bi-curious. He very well may have been completely straight, but I had my doubts.

I’ve never heard the term nappies before?

With that, I’m off to the gym.

Lokland

@Coop

“I jus thought it was funny how the girls oh-so-modestly admit to being satisfied by there above average partners.”

?…..
?….
?….

If you were dating an above average woman would you not admit to being satisfied with the fact that she was beautiful?….?

Just1Z

nappies == diepers (sp?)

just the UK word for the baby’s shit collecting clothing.

(just remembered some political shitstorm in the US, so for the record; not in the least racist – guaranteed)

Ted D

FWIW I’ve been told by several women that girth is where its at. Since that works to my advantage, I’ll go ahead and take it to heart.

Don’t go bursting my bubble ladies!

Ramble

FWIW, I am not a size queen. Average size is fine for me (5? – 6?). I would rather pick a guy who is on smaller side of spectrum than one who is bigger! IMO, girth is where it’s at! Thick > thin

I find this very easy to believe and I find it interesting that it has basically never made it into pop culture.

Just1Z

Also used by women divers using a dry suit, so not just an anal sex issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaper – damn spelt this horrible word wrongly

“Nappy” redirects here. For other uses, see Nappy (disambiguation) and Diaper (disambiguation). For the geological term, see diapir.

Disposable baby diaper with resealable tapes and elasticated leg cuffs.

Different kinds of outer diapers.
A diaper (in American and Canadian English) or a nappy (in Commonwealth English) is a kind of underwear that allows one to defecate or urinate in a discreet manner. When diapers become soiled, they require changing; this process is often performed by a second person such as a parent or caregiver. Failure to change a diaper on a regular enough basis can result in diaper rash.

Feelist

”I said alpha, not hot. Have you never noticed how many ugly alpha athletes and frat guys there are? They’re no better looking than anyone else – most of them are average. Alpha means dominant, not good looking. There are tons of cute betas and deltas who don’t get offers for casual sex.”

Its mostly height and muscles what makes women see the guy as alpha, hence the panties-dropping. Back in high school I watched as guys with deformed/ugly faces/teeth, skinny and what not, get laid by the hottest girls. Many of those guys even had very hot girls fighting each other for the dude’s attention.

Now in college I see the same stuff. I see ugly/bald/fat/skinny guys with nothing inside their heads dating the hottest of girls and spinning plates. Good-looking dudes don’t seem to get women look at them.

I noticed this again when I was inside the train. This skinny guy who was close to being 7 feet tall had every woman inside that train staring at him. I could literally feel the gina-tingles, lol. Even the 50-something women were tingling for that guy.

Height is what makes men popular with women. Muscles don’t hurt. But most guys can’t go beyond their genetic potential, and some guys can’t work out due to health reasons.

deti

The female orgasm rate during a ONS is very low. See Tracy Clark Flory for details. You should ignore what women say and find out what they do.

Susan, we might be getting our wires crossed here. I was talking about nearly every woman with an N of 2 or more having had an ONS in her history, not that each one had an orgasm during the ONS.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I was talking about nearly every woman with an N of 2 or more having had an ONS in her history, not that each one had an orgasm during the ONS.

OK, thanks for clarifying. That’s very different. I think a pretty high percentage of women will have had a ONS by the time they marry. I think that’s been true for 40+ years, actually. The numbers are higher today because some percentage of ONSs are engaged in without an understanding that’s all it is – for example, the girl crushing some guy in college has sex, hopes for more, doesn’t get it. That counts as a ONS.

I don’t believe that a high percentage of women have had sex with random strangers. I think that a woman needs to be extremely unrestricted to want that, and few are. I never would have considered it.

Ramble

People go out because they HOPE to hook up (that’s what the drinking is usually about, yes?) but my guess is that a girl will get one hookup a semester, if that. But it’s not that she disapproves of hookups 99% of the time and suddenly changes her mind on that 1%, it’s that she spends a lot of time hoping for something that she can’t have.

+1

Actually, +1 to your whole comment at 1196.

Ramble

People rag on those women, but I say they derserve every penny they got and more.

J, I am curious, what if some OK looking 65 year old man was dating/sexing some 29 year old girl and she was inclined to think that this will very soon lead to marriage and then dumps her. Would you say that he got everything he deserved?

J

Maybe the cossacks who were rapists had unusually big ones.

I wonder if rapists do.

However, I’m not so sure how interbreeding proves rape in all instances.

It doesn’t, but I think that where there were marriages, it was mostly becasuse Jewish women converted out and disappeared into the neighboring non-Jewish populations.

The joke in my heavily Jewish neighborhood is that blue-eyed Jews have great-grandmothers who were raped by Cossacks. The genome project also shows a lot of maternal Slovic DNA, particulary Polish. Since intermarriage was difficult, if not prohibited in Eastern Europe, I would assume that the Cossack rape theory has some truth as Jewish women would have probably kept any resultant babies and raised them as Jews. Gentile women who had babies with Jewish men would have either converted for marriage (where possible/legal) or left their babies as with the Jewish family as being some Jewish guy’s concubine in a some Polish or Ukraine town were Jews occupied the lowest rungs of the social ladder was no picnic.

It doesn’t really measure askenazi jews specifically, but Israel on the whole doesn’t appear very large (actually lower than most european countries). Don’t know if that means I’m wrong on the ashkenazis

Hope not. I have a fantasy that involves research and the late Paul Newman. Blue eyes…….

Or maybe the big dicked jews were more likely to be rugged individualists who came to America instead of Israel.

I think that may have more to do with historical opportunity than dick size. One could also make the argument that the most virile Jews in the world are those who survived the Holocaust and comprise what is probably, pound for pound, the world’s strongest army.

Maybe the so-called “reformed” jews (more secular) who I would have contact with have bigger dicks than those needle dicked haidic and other orthodox jews.

Nah, those guys have the same great-grandfathers (sometimes literally) as your reform buddies.

J

I don’t think any women here would object if a 30 year old guy didn’t want to go muff diving on a 70 year old woman.

Ooooooooo, that’s a little too Harild and Maude for my taste.

deti

Ted 1223:

You see, this is the crux of the issue for me. And it is why I increasingly view it as insoluble.

Women by and large can sex attractive alpha men but cannot secure commitment from those men.

Women by and large can get commitment from less attractive men but don’t want it.

Men could become more attractive, or at least attractive enough to get a wife. But they have no incentive to because (1) the economy is shit, (2) the marriage/divorce laws put their necks in a stock; (3) generally the women interested in him once he DOES make himself more attractive are either high N, low attractiveness, low quality, unfeminine, or some combination thereof; and therefore (4) the potential rewards don’t justify the risks or necessary investment of time, effort and resources.

That’s it in a nutshell, ladies.

Feelist

”My guess is that about 10-20% of teenaged males suffer from Erotomania.”

They’ll get over it. My guess is that about 20% of tenaged males spend their school days with blue balls. Its painful, but workable.

J

Ramble, I’m a little confused by how your question is stated, but I’ll answer as best I can. I don’t really sympathize with golddiggers, but I was joking that they deserve to make a lot of money from their efforts as I do believe that golddigging is really hard work. I find the idea of 50-something J having sex with an 80 year old guy sort of nauseating. There’s no amount of money that would persuade me to do that. OTOH, an 80 yo J with similarly aged DH, no problem. I hope to God, we’ve still here and still can.

Feelist

I meant to say 80%

Lokland

@deti

“Women by and large can sex attractive alpha men but cannot secure commitment from those men.”

But most don’t.
You said yourself women with an N of more than 2 have a ONS.
Just shy of 50% of married woman have an N of 2 or less (including their husbands).

Either they can’t or they don’t want to.

“Women by and large can get commitment from less attractive men but don’t want it.”

?…..
?….
?….

OKC, lil graph bits, most message sent to the BELOW average guys.
Women aim down in terms of physical attractiveness.
They know that their SMV is lower than their MMV. Won’t admit it but actions > words.

J

I’ve never heard the term nappies before

It’s what the British call diapers–from “napkin,” I think. But not like a table napkin, more like a sanitary napkin (or pad).

JP

“Frankly, I cannot imagine telling any man about my ONSs and the quality of the sex therein (consistently poor).”

This sentence contains information about the quality of sex therein.

Just pointing this out.

It’s kind of like saying “I would never type a sentence like this one.”

HanSolo

@Lokland

“Either they can’t or they don’t want to”

I think even ugly women can easily get an N as high as they want. There were two girls I knew who were roommates. One was really ugly, like literally a 2, maybe a 3 at best. I was good friends with her roommate who always complained to me about how the homely girl would frequently have men over for sex that she met on the internet. Maybe some ugly guys don’t want sex with ugly women but this girl had no trouble finding willing guys.

Ted D

Susan – “Frankly, I cannot imagine telling any man about my ONSs and the quality of the sex therein (consistently poor).”

It started in HS. Girls just started talking to me about stuff. I thought they saw me as “safe” because it was well known I was involved and staying that way. *shrug*

It continued into my gigging days, with women telling me things I would have NEVER in a million years asked them about. I know far more about the history of slutty women in the metro PGH area than I can describe. I’ve been told about positions, penis size, sounds guys make when they orgasm, you name it.

As to if it is appropriate or not? Hell if I know! I can tell you that in my circle of friends, we often discuss our sex lives, though not NEARLY to the level of detail I was exposed to as a young lad. But, yeah, we sometimes talk about toys, positions, places we’ve “done it”. Every once in awhile it gets out of hand (Usually with booze, LOL) and the “what is the craziest thing you’ve ever done” conversation starts. At that point, I bug out, because I’m unwilling to discuss my past, and I certainly don’t want to hear my wife’s.

Perhaps its just because we are lower on the SES scale. Oh, and most of us are the kids/grandkids of mill workers. I don’t know if you’ve been around old mill guys, but they talk just like Navy Sailors, with less vocabulary. LOL

HanSolo

@Susan

for example, the girl crushing some guy in college has sex, hopes for more, doesn’t get it. That counts as a ONS.

Don’t forget about the men who have sex with a girl on a first date, hoping it will go somewhere and then it doesn’t. I’ve been there and done that.

I’ve also had sex on a first date where I wanted to see them again but wasn’t interested in a relationship but they didn’t want to meet up again for a variety of reasons.

I’ve never had a ONS where I didn’t want to see them again.

JP

“People go out because they HOPE to hook up (that’s what the drinking is usually about, yes?) but my guess is that a girl will get one hookup a semester, if that.”

This was the point of going out?

” I can tell you that in my circle of friends, we often discuss our sex lives, though not NEARLY to the level of detail I was exposed to as a young lad. But, yeah, we sometimes talk about toys, positions, places we’ve “done it”. Every once in awhile it gets out of hand (Usually with booze, LOL) and the “what is the craziest thing you’ve ever done” conversation starts.”

I can recall one conversation that I ever had like this with my friends. It just wasn’t a topic that I thought people ever felt comfortable talking about.

deti

“Women want what they want. Either women will strive to get what they want, succeeding or failing in the process, or they will settle for someone who “will do”.”

This is why the problem is nearly insoluble as things now stand on a macro level.

Men want what they want too. An attractive woman who is head over heels in love with him and is into sex with him. Failing that, they’ll settle for something less. Failing that, they’ll save their money for toys, beer, an internet connection and video games, which is pretty much what they’re doing now.

Feelist

”Failing that, they’ll settle for something less. Failing that, they’ll save their money for toys, beer, an internet connection and video games, which is pretty much what they’re doing now.”

It pays off on the long-run. Not seeing average men with any girlfriends – and I see thousands upon thousands of people everyday – and seeing the tall/douchebag/muscle-bound fella get the hot women as girlfriends and the average women as plates: don’t you think it’d be silly to wait until women figure out that they’re looking for something else aka ”settling”?

deti

Lok:

I don’t understand your post at 1262 at all.

I agree with Han that pretty much any woman can run up her N. An alpha can slum it, get hammered and sex an HB 3 or 4. He gets a notch. She gets bragging rights and an inflated SMV. He’s a little embarrassed. She’s overjoyed.

“Women can get commitment from less attractive men but don’t want it.” I stand by this. Given the choice between commitment from an alpha or from a beta, the more appealing choice is commitment from the alpha; and she will choose the alpha for commitment every time. The thing is that most women never get this choice. All they get is the drama and the Walk of Shame the next day. Many women sleep with an alpha hoping to wring a commitment or a relationship from him; and failing most of the time.

Lokland

@Han

“I was good friends with her roommate who always complained to me about how the homely girl would frequently have men over for sex that she met on the internet.”

My experience is similar.
Highest N woman I know was N>30, everyone and their dog knew it.

I don’t think I could have got it up. She was the antithesis of what I find attractive. (Thick, not actually fat, just not waifer thin.)

Feelist

By the way, deti. I came across a reddit thread from a guy who’s seeing the same stuff happening in Japan. Seems like the MGTOW movement in Asia is known as ”grass-eating” boys.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/14bv4p/wednesday_ama_i_am_asiaexpert_one_stop_shop_for/

deti

Lok cont’d:

There are many, many women talking about “where are all the good men”. We hear it all the time. But those same women could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three betas or deltas, any of whom would be tickled pink to wife them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attractive to those women.

deti

Lok, Han:

I knew this woman in college. HB 3 at best, fat, sexually forward, hatchet face. She had to have had an N of at least 35, probably more. She was our campus’ very own chlamydia Typhoid Mary.

Lokland

@deti

“I don’t understand your post at 1262 at all.”

Mughhh.

45% of women who are married have an N of 2 OR less. (That includes their husbands.)

You claimed that all women with an N of greater than 2 have had a ONS in your experience.

Combining those two, a very nonsignificant minority of married woman have never had a ONS.

““Women can get commitment from less attractive men but don’t want it.””

Okay Cupid.
Graphs for attractiveness and messages sent.

Most women send messages to the BELOW average men.

Either all women on OKC want casual, NSA attached sex (wtf did I get married then?) OR women want relationships with below average (ie. equal attractiveness) males. (If 5 out of 10 guys are SMV 2, 5 out of 10 women marry guys SMV 2).

J

But those same women could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three betas or deltas, any of whom would be tickled pink to wife them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attractive to those women.

FWIW, those betas and delta holding out for higher HB girls could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three plainer Janes, any of whom would be tickled pink to be their wives them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attracted to those women.

People have know themselves and undersatnd what they can realistically get.

Lokland

@deti

“There are many, many women talking about “where are all the good men”. We hear it all the time. ”

There are many, many women ON THE INTERNET talking about “where are all the good men”.

I know exactly ONE irl.
She played her hand, she failed. She’s just shy of 30 and bought her first of what I assume will be many cats.

Most of my buddies fall into the beta/delta region of SMV scale.
All but one are married/engaged/very serious LTR.

My alpha buddy is dating the hottest women in the group. (Absolute KO, walk into a room and her presence hits you.)

The rest of the men, including myself are dating 4-8s. Some of those have kids, few buns in the oven.

I just don’t see what you profess as reality. None of these girls would qualify as sluts/carousel riders/watchers or any other negative term.

Lokland

Note:

Dating = catch all representing all types of relationships, not actually dating.

deti

@ J:

“FWIW, those betas and delta holding out for higher HB girls could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three plainer Janes, any of whom would be tickled pink to be their wives in 15 minutes. But those men are not attracted to those women.”

I know you see that, but I don’t. My experience is too many men can’t get any interest from any women at all; and the ones who are interested aren’t worth the risk. See my comment at 1257.

Feelist

”FWIW, those betas and delta holding out for higher HB girls could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three plainer Janes, any of whom would be tickled pink to be their wives them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attracted to those women.”

They could? Where? I’ve spent a lot of time in different colleges, when I don’t have classes I hang out with friends from those colleges(in those colleges) and I don’t see anything close to that. I see average guys getting turned down by average girls. Ignored, really. Although you shouldn’t take my observations. I’m just a college student.

Feelist

”Most of my buddies fall into the beta/delta region of SMV scale.
All but one are married/engaged/very serious LTR.”

Look, I know that most of you here see marriage as the ultimate goal(at least for the woman it is), but hardly any woman marries a virgin. That means that some other guy was getting the goodies for free, and I really don’t know one beta below the age of 30 who is interested in paying for what some other guy had for free. Is it harsh? Sure, but so is spending one’s teen years and young adulthood without any sort of female attention while seeing guys who didn’t do anything to be worthy of what they have, have everything, and then have older people say, ”no worry, women marry men who are in their league looks-wise and women love college educated men.”

Sometimes I think what men(80%) want doesn’t seem to make an appearance. I know we aren’t worthy of being looked at, but I think we still qualify as human beings?

Feelist

woman marries as virgins*

J

@deti/feelist

I’m going to try to argue people out of their experiences. I just know that I hear a lot of perfectly acceptable, non-carousel kind of girls complaining about a lack of interest from men and have had a few of my own dry spells as well.

Feelist

”I’m going to try to argue people out of their experiences. I just know that I hear a lot of perfectly acceptable, non-carousel kind of girls complaining about a lack of interest from men and have had a few of my own dry spells as well.”

When young women complain about a lack of interest from men they’re saying that David Beckam isn’t interested in them. Trust me. I see plenty of dudes interested in average, non-carousel kind of girls. These dudes aren’t balding, aren’t fat, aren’t short, aren’t skinny. They’re just average. And that makes them less of a man than most of those young women who can’t draw male attention care to admit.

Its not pleasant, its not sweet, but it is what it is.

Average women can be pretty damn rough, too. Saw this decent-looking guy get shot down hard by an average girl. She coldly ignored him and then had a conversation with one of her girlfriends where she joyfully made fun of the guy’s not-so-perfect teeth. Restricted girl. Very conservative.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Susan,
Oooookay this is going to be a long one. I apologize in advance (but not for the statements I made in my previous post, I’m sticking by most of them and you’ll see why ).

I said alpha, not hot. Have you never noticed how many ugly alpha athletes and frat guys there are? They’re no better looking than anyone else – most of them are average. Alpha means dominant, not good looking. There are tons of cute betas and deltas who don’t get offers for casual sex.

This is largely a semantics debate. I am sorry for using the term “hottie,” I should have instead referred to “top males.” So replacing one term for the other, we now have:

“There’s this weird idea in the sphere that any woman can have sex with a top male, and at the risk of stirring up controversy, I would like to reject that notion. Top males have their choice of women, they can afford to be picky and still get around. Maybe if a top male was on a desert island with a 6, he’d get with her, but what is often ignored is that hookups occur in a social context. Female intrasexual competition is a strong presence, and at the end of the day, the coupling often breaks down in an assortative manner.”

In essence, nothing changes about that paragraph except the terminology. Further, the point of that section was about average girls being able to get with top guys, which you said could happen quite easily. You have not contradicted what I’ve said about it not being so easy. Instead you made it into a semantics argument about what constitutes an alpha, or a top male.

Meanwhile, in the interest of semantics, I would like to go ahead and define “carousel watcher.” Now first, we must define “carousel rider,” since the former is derived from the latter. Many men in the sphere often define a rider as a woman who’s had sex with tons of top males. However, the meaning is often obscured when we talk about very promiscuous women who have slept around with guys who were not top males. Are they also carousel riders? I think the misunderstanding, generally speaking, comes from the notion that only the top males get the hookups, which is not 100% true. I propose that a carousel rider is any girl who has participated in hookup culture and has an N, due primarily to hookups and other ONSs, of over 4 (that number is arbitrary, and since we’re not discussing riders in this debate, I also propose that we let it drop). A “carousel watcher,” then, is a girl who would participate in hookup culture, given the opportunity, FOR WHATEVER REASON.

We know from the data that the average college guy who considers himself a player gets with three girls per year. I suspect most of the guys below the mean are fairly unattractive guys who are happy to settle for a fairly unattractive girl, or even a very unattractive girl, for a ONS.

The survey Zach submitted, which broke out sex partners by frats and athletes showed something similar – they were slightly ahead of the rest of the guys on campus, but not by a lot. And the guys on campus with the highest N were neither.

Call it poor reading comprehension, but I’m not sure why you broke out these facts. I guess it’s more evidence that the top males are not necessarily involved in Greek life and sports? Okay, I can believe that. However, it doesn’t address the main point, which was that it’s not easy peasy for any old girl to get sex from a top male.

Susan, because this discussion is sort of long, I ask that we stay on point here. Mike C often claims that you introduce somewhat but not totally related facts to sort of obscure the main point, and I see what he means. It’s not that I’m not interested in this other related data, it’s that we’re specifically talking about carousel watchers here, not “what constitutes a top male, and where can I find him on campus?” So, let’s just use the term “top male,” whatever he is, and try to agree that he’s got options and isn’t going to settle for a Plain Jane type, definitely not for a hookup.

Women go out in hopes of finding a guy to be a boyfriend. Hookups are the way college women go about that. We know that three quarters of women go into a hookup specifically hoping it will build to a relationship.

Yep all of that makes sense, and it still does not go against what I’ve proposed here, which is that carousel watchers hope to get hookups and are often left empty-handed. I think you’ve tried to make this distinct division between the women who just want to sleep around, and the women who just want relationships. The carousel watchers are a middle group: they don’t necessarily hookup, but they’re not actively against it. What you’ve said about these women hooking up to get boyfriends kind of proves my point.

Some women may go about that by pursuing a top male, but I think most girls are well aware of which guys don’t commit. A girl who is looking for a ONS with the best-looking guy in the frat is probably doing it for the novelty, the social cred and the validation. She knows he is not going to date her. So I think you’re off on this.

I’m off in the sense that you have a different definition of “carousel watcher” in mind, I think.

I didn’t infer anything. Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t mean I didn’t write about it. Now I have to go dig it all up, dammit.

Not to be a royal pain in the ass, but a lot of the following stats you provide, while great starting points, don’t totally lend themselves to the inference you’ve made about 80% of women actively disapproving and avoiding casual encounters. Let’s break it down.

1. 11% of my respondents expressed unequivocal enjoyment of hookup culture.
• 50% were having hook ups, but were doing it rather ambivalently or reluctantly, some with extremely negative experiences.
• For them, hooking up was a price they were willing to pay for
the opportunity to have sex and the small possibility that a string of
hookups would lead to a relationship.

Okay, so what you’ve showed here is that the majority of students in this study were hooking up, but half of them were somewhat dissatisfied. Recall that I said this:

Now, it’s highly possible that, given the choice, 80% of women would choose traditional dating over the hookup scene any day. I actually don’t really doubt that, a lot of people aren’t happy with hookup culture.

I’m not denying that people are not happy with the hookup culture. That doesn’t mean that 80% are ACTIVELY AVOIDING it, which, if I remember correctly, is your central thesis here.

66% of women hook up to get a relationship (Paula England survey of 20K students)

Again, this actually lends itself to the idea that women are NOT actively avoiding hookups. They don’t want hookups forever, of course, but that is not my thesis.

“95 percent of female students said they would choose dating over hooking up, and 77.5 percent of men said the same.” (Washington Post, 5/9/10)

Here’s what I said:

it’s highly possible that, given the choice, 80% of women would choose traditional dating over the hookup scene any day.

Sixty-eight percent of the sampled sexually active college students regretted at least one sexual encounter. These results are consistent with the Oswalt et al. (2005) study that reported 72% of participants indicated sexual regret. (note: this applies to both men and women; women expressed more regret than men, though the number was not specified.)

Okay, but again, this obscures the point. We are not talking about regret after the fact here. We are discussing carousel watchers, and your thesis that 80% of women actively avoid and disapprove of casual encounters.

The results of this study provide insight as to how students could experience dissonance and regret, yet continue to engage in hookup behaviors. Over half the respondents (63%) reduced their dissonance by changing an attitude or behavior. Examples of changing a behavior included attending less parties or drinking less alcohol. By doing so, their behaviors were able to become consonant with their attitudes. Some respondents changed their attitudes by changing their sexual attitudes from conservative to more liberal. (HOOKING UP ON CAMPUS: COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AND SEXUAL REGRET AMONG COLLEGE STUDENTS )
(The bolded part speaks to the point you made about women drinking in order to hook up, a common practice.)

Again, though, this is a study about regret and cognitive dissonance. Recall that we’re discussing carousel watchers, not the number of people who regretted hooking up after the fact.

I understand that was your personal experience, and that you are not alone.

Yeah I’m just going to stop writing about my own experience because it’s not relevant when we’re discussing data. My mistake.

It does not negate my statement about what 80% of college women feel about hooking up. They do disapprove of it, and they do avoid it.

But Susan, the vast majority of the sources you cited above prove that they don’t avoid it, even if they do disapprove of it. In the Thomas study (last one mentioned above), on page three, there is mention of a 2000 study by Paul, McManus, and Hayes reporting that 78% of students experienced at least one hookup in college. To me, that’s a very clear indication that the vast majority of students participate at least once.

That doesn’t mean they’ve never made out with someone on a dance floor or even that they’ve never had sex.

Okay, but “making out on the dance floor” definitely doesn’t count as avoiding hookup culture. Can we agree on that?

However, the data is very clear on hookups – there just are not very many people having them

Perhaps there are not very many people having very many of them, but there are many people who have them at least once. Your data shows that clearly.

and research shows that both men and women perceive them negatively.

This I have never denied. At the very least, there is plenty of ambivalence.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Olive

This is largely a semantics debate. I am sorry for using the term “hottie,” I should have instead referred to “top males.”

And I’m saying that a lot of those guys are not “top males,” so my point remains the same. They’re guys who are not attractive, perhaps they get on very well with other guys, are athletic/high T, whatever. They don’t really get girls. In most frats, only a few of the guys get a lot of girls. The rest are very, very flexible on their requirements for a hookup. I stand by my assertion that it is easy for all but the least attractive girls to go out on a weekend night and have sex. There are several comments by males in this thread that support that notion as well.

I propose that a carousel rider is any girl who has participated in hookup culture and has an N, due primarily to hookups and other ONSs, of over 4 (that number is arbitrary, and since we’re not discussing riders in this debate, I also propose that we let it drop). A “carousel watcher,” then, is a girl who would participate in hookup culture, given the opportunity, FOR WHATEVER REASON.

Your definition of carousel rider is not compatible with the way the term is used in the sphere. It means a woman who eschews all but alpha males, and is eager and willing to have sex with them on a regular basis without commitment. The woman is habitually promiscuous – it is a lifestyle. Unlike at HUS, where I generally reference college students, the carousel rider of the spherical variety is a woman living it up with cads in her 20s, and preparing to hang up her spurs when she turns 30 and snag a beta provider.

Obviously, it follows that your carousel watcher definition doesn’t work with this.

Furthermore, I did not comment on what percentage of women are willing to consider participating in hookup culture. You called me out for saying that 80% of women avoid casual sex. Those are very different statements. Considering that hooking up may comprise making out with someone you find attractive at a party, I’d assume that at least 80% of female college students are willing to participate in hookup culture at some level. That’s not the debate we are having, however.

I think you’ve tried to make this distinct division between the women who just want to sleep around, and the women who just want relationships. The carousel watchers are a middle group: they don’t necessarily hookup, but they’re not actively against it.

They’re not against it if it works, lol. Ask any “college married” if they regret their casual hookup with their boyfriend, and they’ll say of course not. The women who hook up hoping for something more and get nothing are the ones expressing regret, feeling used, etc.

I feel comfortable saying that 80% of college women would be unwilling to engage in a P in V, oral or anal first-time hookup with anyone. That is the definition of casual sex widely accepted by researchers. The % is my estimation based on the research I’ve done.

I’m not denying that people are not happy with the hookup culture. That doesn’t mean that 80% are ACTIVELY AVOIDING it, which, if I remember correctly, is your central thesis here.

OK, you’re referencing hookup culture again. I did not say that, nor did I say casual encounters. I said casual sex. Casual sex is defined as oral, vaginal or anal sex with zero expectations of further involvement.

Perhaps there are not very many people having very many of them, but there are many people who have them at least once. Your data shows that clearly.

I don’t mean to be snarky, but I’m astounded that you think you’re telling me something I don’t know. My Definitive Survey post lays out a dozen or so studies confirming this.

J

When young women complain about a lack of interest from men they’re saying that David Beckam isn’t interested in them.

I don’t see this as uniformly true. I see average people together all the time, but I’ve had this debate too many times to count here.

Feelist

” I see average people together all the time”

I see average people together, too. They’re usually in their 30’s and the woman doesn’t seem attracted to her partner.

On the other hand, the couples I see in their teens and 20’s, the guy is either taller/better looking/has more muscles than most men his age, and the few other men dating at all(dating below average/average girls) are bad boys.

I don’t know that many guys interested in waiting 10, 12 years to finally have a relationship only to be treated badly, by an average woman, just because she couldn’t secure a ring from the Alpha.

Escoffier

I thought a carousel watcher was a girl in a group of friends at least one of whom is a rider, but who herself does not ride, or not much.

She’s still a risk, as Susan often points out, because the enviorment she’s in will take its toll and influence her behavior.

Cooper

@J

I don’t want to argue with you that average girls have trouble receiving attention.
Just IME, I’ve happily aimed quite low myself, and haven’t encountered enthusiasm until well-passed what I’d consider an embarrassing mix-match.

The average mentality of single beta/deltas is NOT “will she impress the boys,” much rather “are the guys going to make fun of me, if I introduce her as my GF.”

Perhaps the inverse with girls is also true.

pvw

J:

FWIW, those betas and delta holding out for higher HB girls could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three plainer Janes, any of whom would be tickled pink to be their wives them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attracted to those women.

People have know themselves and undersatnd what they can realistically get.

Me: That is something I find myself thinking about. Is Deti the same Detinue32 (sp?) who once wrote a post here about the “one that got away?”

If I ‘m getting the story right, “Summer” was a 5 who wasn’t going to be among the hottest of the women out there, but she worked with what she had. As a result, she was very attractive and desirable; the narrator was a man who was able to pull 8s, and so he thought he deserved something better than a 5 who was really into him. But the 8 put him through hell. He later married a 6 who was a former carousel rider (who hid her past very well until a recent crisis exposed the truth), and who had a more abrasive personality than the more feminine (and more desirable personality-wise) five in the story about “Summer.”

If I got all these details right, I must sound pretty scary.

@Susan regarding BB’s ideas regarding marriage strategies: 1-5 or so? I just had some interesting email correspondence with a former student who seems to be not far away from the “5” category, and by choice–overly radical feminist, it is scary. She is straight and has had long term boyfriends, but is she overly abrasive….prickly…she can be quite off the wall from some of the things I have heard her say. But I know where it is coming from–early histories of abuse and sexual assault.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@pvw

But I know where it is coming from–early histories of abuse and sexual assault.

I really think that if we could peel back the cover of most radical feminists, this is what we would find. I met a woman at a gathering who told me that when she was 21 three men broke into her apartment, gagged her and raped her all night long. She went from straight to lesbian that night and embraced radical feminism. It’s very understandable.

Feelist

It is really quite the contrast. Women below the age of 30 mate with the men they are truly interested in. The sexual desire for the guy, the respect and admiration she has for the guy radiates from her like the sun hitting the spanish coastline. Whereas the 30-something couple, I either see the guy being treated like he stole his wifes/girlfriend’s bank account, or he’s carrying the bags, pushing the baby car etc etc.

Who do you think wins out? And do you think young, average men are looking foward to being the 30 year old guy? I’m sure that porn and masturbation can’t be as good as real sex, but real sex for the average man is extremely expensive and doesn’t seem worth going for.

Lokland

@Coop

Your gonna get blown out of the water by women who should be thanking you for acknowledging their existence.

I have, I’m sure every guy here has.

Its a part of life that SOME people will over value themselves.

Personally, I like the cast a wide net approach.
If you ask for 1000 numbers and succeed 1% of the time (very low) you have a choice of 10.

Yeah, 990 blowouts suck but frankly as a guy, the best approach to finding a suitable, equal value mate is not to pick and choose who you like best but a broad spectrum fishing expedition and choosing from the catch.

Women get to select from whats available without much consequence.
Men get to make more things available without much consequence.

JP

“Your gonna get blown out of the water by women who should be thanking you for acknowledging their existence.

I have, I’m sure every guy here has.”

I don’t recall this ever happening to me.

Passer_By

I thought the term “carousel watcher” was generally taken to mean a woman who was in the social scene where people were doing that, but had specifically chosen to sit it out, perhaps after one or two bad experiences.

Olive, I think we need a new term for the one you are describing. Carousel Aspirant? Carousel Envier?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Re the term carousel watcher. I believe Dalrock began the original idea:

Dalrock: One of Susan’s recent posts has an example of what I would consider a passive rider of the carousel. She quotes a letter from a 22 year old virgin to Dear Margo:

I chose not to lose my virginity in high school; my mother always told me not to settle. I went to college, and a voice in my head told me to wait. I was not interested in one-night stands in a fraternity house. I was mysterious, an enigma.

The “virgin thing’’ went from enigma to stigma in the real world. I’ve been working for a year, and I’m 22 and still a virgin. My confidence makes me attractive to men, and I have a head-turning, Kim Kardashian figure. Desirable men flirt with me, but I know they are only after one thing. Men don’t ask me on dates; they just invite me to their humble abodes. I don’t accept any of these offers because of my “secret.’’ All I really want is for someone to see me for me.

Dalrock names this virgin who wants a man of her own SMV a Carousel Rider, though Passive.

A commenter named Jack takes credit for the watcher term and defines it thus:

And the other 60% of the top 80% of women are holding out for the unicorn – the attractive alpha with beta qualities. Perhaps these women are riding the unicorn carousel.

The are holding out for men who simply do not exist beyond a very tiny slice of available men.

Essentially, they want a man with alpha-like characteristics and alpha-like options, but who will commit to their beta-female looks and slightly thick soccer-player legs.

60% of women are riding a vaporware carousel of unicorns.

The ever delightful and eloquent Pro Male Anti-Feminist Tech expands:

The “carousel watchers” are mentally “carousel riders” so they are carousel riders all the same. Among the 80% of women carousel watching and carousel riding is probably on a continuum. Hotter chicks of the 80% spend more time carousel riding, less attractive chicks of the 80% spend more time carousel watching. However, there are no pure carousel riders or carousel watchers. Occasionally an alpha will bang chicks on the lower end of the 80%, and the mismatch between the numbers of alphas and the numbers of just the hotter chicks of the 80% mean that logistically even the hottest chick can’t spend all of her time carousel riding.

And I’ll close with a comment by deti:

Women do not “hope for commitment” from men they sex up in the hookup scene or on the carousel. Women get on the carousel because they want sex from dominant alpha men. They don’t hope for commitment. They want the sex.

I’m going to go out on a limb here: Women en masse want to ride the carousel. They want hot sex from alpha men, as much as they can get, for as long as they can get it. One of three things gets her off the carousel: (1) she is kicked off because she can’t pull the hot men anymore; (2) she steps off because she tires of it and can’t do it anymore; (3) baby rabies and desperate searches for marriage to the first available man. But make no mistake about it — she does not want off the carousel.

Those who don’t get to ride the carousel are carousel watchers. These women don’t slut it up like the full fledged sluts. They stand around, watching the alphas and the sluts. Occasionally, carousel watchers hook up with a greater beta or classic beta, and then shut him down when he offers commitment. The watcher doesn’t want commitment — she wants sex from a hot alpha. And occasionally, when business on the carousel is slow, an alpha horse invites a watcher to ride, and she gets a few rides. Sometimes she becomes a rider; most times she steps off or is kicked off.

What women really want is to ride the carousel for as long as she wants, then step off when she wants into the arms of an alpha offering commitment for as long as she wants.

Bottom line: 80-100% of women are either carousel riders or watchers. 80-100% of women do not want commitment, they only want sex from alpha males.
- http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh
  
  One more thing about carousel watchers. By definition they are “non-hot”:
  
  deti:
  
  Non-hot girls participate in this SMV by doing two things:
  
  1. Slutting it up with alphas via NSA sex and a glimmer of hope for a relationship; or
  2. becoming carousel watchers, as opposed to carousel riders. A carousel watcher is a woman who stands on the sidelines, watching the hotter girls ride the carousel and secretly wishing to ride; but they’re not allowed to because they’re not hot enough or because they’ve been kicked off the carousel.
  
  Now that we’ve got this cleared up, I hope we never have to discuss it again!

pvw

J, Returning to my observations in response to you, if a man is of lower smv and can pull women of higher smv, and she is used to men of higher smv, she might me more likely take him for granted, shit test, etc., because he is “beneath” her, in her view. He, on the other hand, might feel he lucked out just getting her to talk to him, ie., if he sees himself as less than but with a woman all the other men want. I suppose that is where game comes in. Yet, for a man who is competitive in that way, there are no accolades for getting the plain jane, but there will be lots of back thumping for getting the hottie.

Passer_By

“Your gonna get blown out of the water by women who should be thanking you for acknowledging their existence.

I have, I’m sure every guy here has.”

Not me, but only because I would have never approached anyone or asked anyone out without VERY VERY strong encouragement.

JP

“Not me, but only because I would have never approached anyone or asked anyone out without VERY VERY strong encouragement.”

I really didn’t realize that I was supposed to to the approaching/asking.

Feelist

”Yeah, 990 blowouts suck but frankly as a guy, the best approach to finding a suitable, equal value mate is not to pick and choose who you like best but a broad spectrum fishing expedition and choosing from the catch.”

That approach to the matter at hand is too risky. In a college with thousands upon thousands of women, you are bound to hit on a girl that knows the other girl you are trying to have a date with. How? Facebook.

I swear to god. I’m in class, never seen the girl in front of me with that other girl in her facebook page and suddenly I see every face I remember seeing that day on every girl’s facebook pictures.

Its also very tiresome. I was casting a net over 6 different girls. Different Countries, different backgrounds, different levels of entitlement.

First girl is from an European powerhouse. She’s a 7. She responds to my flirty behavior. She lets me touch her and gets blushy when I amp up the volume in flirting. She’s the type of girl that has a steady/live-in boyfriend, is hot, but surprisngly enough I don’t see guys noticing her existence, so she welcomes my sexual attention and gets mad when I ignore her.

Second girl is from Romenia. She’s a 5. Her boyfriend is a musician(really?) and she seems the opposite of the first girl. She looks like she’s restricted. I used a lot of game. Wide displays of higher status. I displayed what she seemed to be looking for: high status male with the will to provide. Made her qualify to me.Today she completely ignored me and pretended to be looking to the other side of the road as she was walking by me.

Third girl is tall, doesn’t get any male attention from what I see, is restricted, and is not bad to look at, but nothing special.

She blushes and is sweet to me when we are alone. She ignores me when she is with her friends. Literally. She won’t even look my way. She makes ”fun” of me when she’s talking to her friends. And when I thought she wasn’t interested she went up to me to say hi – in the same exact way I say hi to her – and she responded to my text message, albeit in a short manner.

Fourth girl showed severe levels of high interest. I asked her out.She rejected me. I don’t chase her but she looks uncomfortable when she sees me.

Fifth girl is restricted as it gets and is looking to find a husband. She’s eager to talk to me, but won’t go out with me. Average-looking girl.

And the sixth I just got to know last week. I haven’t done anything grand, but I think I’m just gonna hang my boots on the wall and find me so sweet old porn and masturbate my sexual frustration away to allow me to go to college next monday without looking like someone pulled my teeth during my sleep.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

I thought a carousel watcher was a girl in a group of friends at least one of whom is a rider, but who herself does not ride, or not much.

She’s still a risk, as Susan often points out, because the enviorment she’s in will take its toll and influence her behavior.

Wait really? So now we have 3 definitions:
1. Susan’s, which I assume is a girl who longingly hopes to get with an alpha but is never successful.
2. Mine, which is a girl who wants to participate in hookup culture, but comes away empty-handed.
3. Escoff’s and Passerby’s.

I hate semantics, head is spinning.

J

@pvw

Yep, that’s our deti. Kinda illustrates my point, doesn’t it?

Returning to my observations in response to you, if a man is of lower smv and can pull women of higher smv, and she is used to men of higher smv, she might me more likely take him for granted, shit test, etc., because he is “beneath” her, in her view. He, on the other hand, might feel he lucked out just getting her to talk to him, ie., if he sees himself as less than but with a woman all the other men want. I suppose that is where game comes in. Yet, for a man who is competitive in that way, there are no accolades for getting the plain jane, but there will be lots of back thumping for getting the hottie.

Ever feel, when you were younger, that men loved bitches? You just explained why.

HanSolo

@J

FWIW, those betas and delta holding out for higher HB girls could snap their fingers and have their choice of two or three plainer Janes, any of whom would be tickled pink to be their wives them up in 15 minutes. But those men are not attracted to those women.

They may be able to have Janes that are much plainer than themselves at the snap of a finger but it is not easy for them to get equally plain Janes because those ones are wanting guys of higher value than themselves. Not all single women in their 20’s and 30’s are like this but a good minority are–enough to “upset” the market. And there are also some guys holding out for girls out of their league but it is my opinion, based on observation and hearsay and evopsych, that more women are doing this than men.

The provider/protector role of men used to add to his value but now, due to technology and the affluent, safe society that resulted from it, men get much less value for that and are left to being more valued for things such as looks, charisma, fame and other things that prehistorically would have probably been fairly well correlated with good genes. I believe many women’s attraction algorithm is adaptive to take into account their environment and perceive that they don’t need providers/protectors as much and focus more on being turned on by things that in prehistoric days would have shown good genes (today, some of those things are more easy to fake because badboys don’t get killed or cast out as readily as they did in the tribal days and could only get away with being badboys by being true badasses capable of telling anyone else in the tribe to fuck off.)

J

To the guys who are having trouble finding girls–Sorry if I sound unsympathetic. I do hope things work out well for you.

Lokland

Lol, okay, just me.
Nvm then, carry on.

HanSolo

@Lokland and Deti

I see both sides of it. I think about half (wild-ass guess) of women are very realistic and find partners of roughly equal value (have many female friends like this) while another half have some level of hypergamy (from mild to severe; also have quite a few friends like this shooting for guys 2+ pts higher than they are or waiting for the impossible unicorn in the case of one girl who is a 9-9.5). Some of the mildly hypergamous women wait it out for a while and then settle or come to their senses while others, especially the highly hypergamous, never do or do so too late. It’s these hypergamous ones that upset the market.

Feelist

”To the guys who are having trouble finding girls–Sorry if I sound unsympathetic. I do hope things work out well for you.”

Well, I know several guys who are living the MGTOW lifestyle and they told me its hard in the beginning, but the man eventually wanes off the interest in has in sex. I never had any, so I think porn is going to be a decent enough substitute for the real thing. Frankly? I see a lot of guys in their 30’s with a whole load of responsabilities. Sex once a month in exchange of all that trouble? No thanks.

Man, I think my left arm is going to get a lot bigger than my right arm, lol.

Lokland

@Feelist

WOW 6?!

How long did they take, 35 minutes?
What did you do with the other 23 hours you didn’t spend pissing?

God meeting women is not an olympic event people.
You don’t have to wait four years and get only 1 shot at the gold medal.

Ramble

Women go out in hopes of finding a guy to be a boyfriend.

No, girls do not go out in their tightest dresses and highest heels and dance “suggestively” before they shit test guys at the bar, while drinking a fair amount, because they are looking for a boyfriend.

Nor does it mean that they are looking to get plowed by “Alpha” cock in the middle of the game room as his frat brothers poor beer on her.

They are looking for a number of things:
– Attention (i.e. Manna from Heaven)
– Crowded places (i.e. well, this is the place to be…I mean, “everyone” was there)
– Plausible deniability (i.e. it was late, it was a bar, I was drunk, you know)

If they do get a boyfriend out of this, then, fine. But, even then, girls are rarely happy to share the fact that they “met at a bar” (and she has that look on her face).

Also, it is instructive that girls spend more time at bars when they are in that school/career focuses stage and not the relationship/marriage (i.e. Husband Hunting) stage and then when they start to transition to the Husband Hunting it is more lounges and dinner parties.

Passer_By

@olive

“However, the meaning is often obscured when we talk about very promiscuous women who have slept around with guys who were not top males. Are they also carousel riders?”

By definition, no. “Carousel” is really short for the original term – Alpha Cock Carousel.

Feelist

He has in sex*

I think that the women with the most sexual power are the younger ones. I’m not going to be surrounded by very hot women all of my life. After college I’ll probably have the majority of the women as divorced/single mothers/not-so good looking women. It’ll get easier, I suppose. By then I’ll probably lose sexual interest in women.

Feelist

”“However, the meaning is often obscured when we talk about very promiscuous women who have slept around with guys who were not top males. Are they also carousel riders?”’

Heh, that’s funny, but no. I tried my luck with women who were extremely promiscuous. They flirted with me, promissed me sex if I was to give them commitment. Guess what? Gave them the commitment. Not even a handjob in return, only a peck on the lips. This coming from women who weren’t even all that good-looking is kinda hurtful.

When a man is born looking average, with average height and an average body build, he better be told by his parents that his life is going to be a lifetime of masturbation. It’d save a lot of frustration.

Ramble

Ramble, I’m a little confused by how your question is stated, but I’ll answer as best I can.

Actually, you never did answer the question, but, that is OK. Still, I detect that on some level you would think that the golddigger deserves the money if she had to sleep with the old fart, but I doubt that you would feel similarly for the old fart that fucks her, but never pays out.

Ramble

Yet, for a man who is competitive in that way, there are no accolades for getting the plain jane, but there will be lots of back thumping for getting the hottie.

I feel it is important to point out that he will be getting pats on the back from guys and girls.

Feelist

”WOW 6?!

How long did they take, 35 minutes?
What did you do with the other 23 hours you didn’t spend pissing?

God meeting women is not an olympic event people.
You don’t have to wait four years and get only 1 shot at the gold medal.”

Dude, I’ve been working on these six girls for the past 2 months. Its not like I go up to a woman and talk to her for 40 minutes(if I can get a woman’s attention for that long, with all of her girlfriends and facebook lurking around) and then give up when she doesn’t put out right there.

Those 6 girls, I treated each with different facets of my personality.

With the tall, more broadly-built girl I used the Alpha male, loud jerk template to compensate for my lack of body mass when compared to her body. Seems to work, but the girl gives me mixed responses by being submissive to me when one on one, but avoiding/ignoring me when she’s with her girlfriends.

Basically I’ve treated each of the girls different, based on what I perceive their attraction triggers are about. Its a LOT of work, lots of energy spent, time and worst of all is that I have to effectively socially dominate bigger guys(which I do), that tends to be extremely tiring and its dangerous. I risk getting my teeth punched in. For what, I ask myself? For a date? LOL.

Look, take another example. Two buddies of mine were chasing this Italian girl(I’m not into Italians). Brown-skinned, doesn’t speak English too well, is skinny but nothing overly cute, and doesn’t talk to any guy. Last week she was facing me as if I was a creep. Today I was pissed off beyond my mind because of college elections, people had been pestering me all day.

The girl was staring at me. I expanded by back, spaced out my feet, Alpha male body language. Girl is right in front of me, quickly looks at me, looks at the floor in a flash. We stay a couple minutes like that and then she moves to the other side.

Man, all this work for something that I might not even like? Who’s to say that after these many years of spanking the monkey I’m even going to get an erection with a real woman? All this PITA mountain of work to get in a woman’s pants ,and then I’m the school’s joke because I can’t get it up?

Seriously.

pvw

J: Ever feel, when you were younger, that men loved bitches? You just explained why.

Me: Yes, and it explains of course why they also have sex with high n women when they say they really want low n women to marry but instead they marry the high n women. But this has been talked about at hus before–high n women who put out; men who swear they hate sluts are willing to put up with a lot to get it on….provided she is hot enough and good enough in bed.

Ramble

To Olive and Susan,
Olive is right. Without some hard definitions of these terms:
– Hooking Up
– Hook Up Culture
– Casual Sex
– Carousel
– – Rider
– – Watcher

etc.

The discussions are going to resemble that enormous one Susan, Escoffier and Mike C had a few months back.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

The discussions are going to resemble that enormous one Susan, Escoffier and Mike C had a few months back.

Life is too short for another convo like that. It might be different if I found it enjoyable, but I don’t.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Susan,
Okay I found the issue.

Here’s what you said:

In fact, there is a lot of data that shows that 80% of college women avoid casual sex and disapprove of it.

And here’s what I said:

You cannot conclude, just from partner count data, that these 80% completely eschew casual (and by casual, I don’t just mean sex, but also makeouts and all the stuff in between that wasn’t necessarily included in the data).

So, more semantics. If we’re really going to talk about just P in V, oral, or anal, I’m on board. Consider that this statement confused me:

It does not negate my statement about what 80% of college women feel about hooking up. They do disapprove of it, and they do avoid it.

I have no idea what we’re talking about anymore but the semantics have pushed me into “way too frustrated to continue this discussion” territory.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I have no idea what we’re talking about anymore but the semantics have pushed me into “way too frustrated to continue this discussion” territory.

Ditto. In any case, I think we agree.

Passer_By

While we’re defining things, can someone tell me what the heck a “GDI” is?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

While we’re defining things, can someone tell me what the heck a “GDI” is?

Goddamned Independent, i.e. non-frat guy.

Ramble

@pvw

But I know where it is coming from–early histories of abuse and sexual assault.

I really think that if we could peel back the cover of most radical feminists, this is what we would find. I met a woman at a gathering who told me that when she was 21 three men broke into her apartment, gagged her and raped her all night long. She went from straight to lesbian that night and embraced radical feminism. It’s very understandable.

I’ll bet you $50 right now that the majority of influential feminists have never been raped. One main reason for this is that feminists/leftists absolutely love vistimhoom (which is different than love being victimized) and where their victimizations like a badge of honor.

RadFem to some poor (white) bastard that came into her sight,
RadFem: Hey, have you ever been raped? Huh? Have you?! WELL I HAVE!!! So don’t talk to me about this, I know more about this than your puny little brain can comprehend.

Feelist

”J: Ever feel, when you were younger, that men loved bitches? You just explained why.”

No. I’m not attracted to bitches. Regardless of how good-looking they are. I’m attracted to sweet, caring women. Sadly those types want the lumberjack big buy because they don’t feel secure enough on their own.

Yeah, that’s another one ”compliment” for my ego. Average-looking girl from a poor as heck Country buys clothes, 5 dollars a piece. Never had anything for free. She looks at 2 dollars books as expensive. I’m far richer, and I’m not all that bad to look at. At least I’m better looking than Prince William. Would this make her attracted to me? nope. She has a musician back home as her boyfriend. He’s probably banging a lot of girls while she’s here.

She’s the sweetest, most feminine young woman I’ve ever met in my life. She’s not shallow. Isn’t enamoured with wealth. Doesn’t dress like a skank. Doesn’t flirt with guys. Doesn’t know any guys besides me, really.

She’s loyal to her boyfriend that is too lazy to find a real job to give to her the family she so eagerly wants(she’s studying a degree she hates, going for a masters, because she wants a family but can’t have it on her boyfriend’s wages).

Even the good girls want the rouge, probably good-looking kid that is too busy playing The Beatles in weddings.

Amazing. So much for women being attracted to high status males. Looks>status for women below the age of 30.

Feelist

”Me: Yes, and it explains of course why they also have sex with high n women when they say they really want low n women to marry but instead they marry the high n women. But this has been talked about at hus before–high n women who put out; men who swear they hate sluts are willing to put up with a lot to get it on….provided she is hot enough and good enough in bed.”

No? With the exception of the girl ranked 7 all of the others are restricted, therefore they probably have low N’s? I know this girl(the girl dating the musician) that finds women in yoga pants and thongs showing off all day long to be sluts(really, a young woman slut-shaming women who have higher status than her?) and it seems that I’m developing an emotional attachment.

Its strange how I was busy gaming the 7 girl for 2 hours and all I was thinking about while the 7 was laughing and going along with it was how I’d rather spend 5 minutes drinking a coffee with that girl(the 5 girl from Romenia) who allows me to behave like a man to her(I take care of her immediate needs for whatever she needs at the moment, even if its just the act of opening a door).

Sometimes I wish I could meet these girl’s boyfriends to see what I’m lacking. I don’t think I can sew 4 inches or whatever of height to my legs, nor can I be burly like men from Eastern Europe, but at least I’d get an idea of what makes them so hot to women who are worth so much, but ”sell” themselves for so little.

Iggles

@ J:

When young women complain about a lack of interest from men they’re saying that David Beckam isn’t interested in them.

I don’t see this as uniformly true. I see average people together all the time, but I’ve had this debate too many times to count here.

J, fyi Susan identified Feelist as Michael / Piper on a previous. Arguing about certain topics with him is like arguing with PJ. I doubt either would give an inch…

Feelist

”J, fyi Susan identified Feelist as Michael / Piper on a previous. Arguing about certain topics with him is like arguing with PJ. I doubt either would give an inch…”

Excuse my boldness, but the truth is to be avoided because its spoken by someone you don’t like or get along with? Again, I doubt you’re a male college student. Who do you think as more of a valid opinion about the college mating scene? You, who are probably 50 years old, or a guy who goes to college and is surrounded by thousands of young women?

Excuse me while I call my dentist to see if he can help me out with my upcoming exam on Japanese Medieval History.

Passer_By

I stand corrected on the definition of carousel watcher. I guess I was confused by the fact that it doesn’t seem to describe the woman that was described in the letter to Dear Margo at the start of Dalrock’s piece. She seemed more like someone who was only interested in top alphas but not interested in casual sex or STRs, so she never lost her V card.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

She seemed more like someone who was only interested in top alphas but not interested in casual sex or STRs, so she never lost her V card.

Well she sounds like a SHB – a top alpha is her natural partner assortatively. She’s one of the losers in this SMP. She will have to settle one way or the other, marrying a guy with lower SMV or going for the guy with high N and other undesirable traits.

Ramble

Life is too short for another convo like that. It might be different if I found it enjoyable, but I don’t.

I hear you. That is why I am saying that spending some time now, or soon, to define these terms can simplify things in the future.

With that said, I am not sure why you bolded certain things from Lackrod and co.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

With that said, I am not sure why you bolded certain things from Lackrod and co.

I do that when I am afraid that my comment is tl;dr. It allows people to skim. So I bold the punchlines.

Ted D

So what do we call the women Olive is talking about, because IMO they are probably a sizeable group AND likely to be causing a lot of the angst from guys.

Passer_By

@feelist

“Looks>status for women below the age of 30″

Your confusing your version of status with actual “status”.

“Sometimes I wish I could meet these girl’s boyfriends to see what I’m lacking. ”

Better still, you should consider pursuing women without boyfriends.

JP

What’s an “SHB”?

This place has more acronyms than the Social Security Administration.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@JP

What’s an “SHB”?

This place has more acronyms than the Social Security Administration.

Sorry, with all the typing I do I am very prone to adopting new acronyms whenever I can. SHB = Super Hot Babe; a 9 or 10.

A Definite Beta Guy

I’m not sure I have the same definition of “carousel riding.” It means the girls are on a merry-go-round, a relatively safe environment, where she can get thrills riding pretty horses, with no commitment on her part.

A key feature is jumping off the one horse and jumping to the next pretty horse. Oh look at me and how much fun I am having, let’s put a picture on FB because I am so cool and tell my friends I was on the pink horse, and then that’s not fun, so I jump to the black horse, which is really cool too and high. Then I jump off to the yellow horse, which is low to the ground, but it makes me feel safe and I needed a break after being too high.

The horses are secondary, inanimate, etc. The girl is just enjoying the ride, trying on new rides.

PIV is not necessary, hell boob-grabbing isn’t even necessary.

The point is enjoying the company of many men, where none of them mean a damn thing.

And you don’t want to date a carousel rider, because to her you mean nothing .

Sex doesn’t have a damn thing to do with it, IMO, it’s the attitude towards fellow human beings. The reason that guys like Ted and Coop and I object to the “makeout sluts” or making out with multiple guys in the same weekend, behavior Susan describes as non-slutty in the 70s (80s? Shit I don’t remember), is because of this dehumanization and using other people as a dopamine rushes, or basically drugs.

The reason some guys here don’t like serial monogamy is because it’s still carousel riding, or at least sounds like it depending on how you frame it. Serial monogamy can very well be the actions of a girl who wants to find a guy and wants to be emotionally connected, and it can also be carousel riding.

If your life absolutely sucks and is absolutely devoid of excitement, yeah, the dopamine rush of the carousel, particularly when you hear about it NONSTOP, is going to sound exciting. Hell, even the drama can sound exciting, if your life is utterly drab and dull by comparison.

It’s also an extremely empty and soulless existence for people who want to be valued as human beings.

The sex is secondary. It’s the dehumanization that matters.

JP

“The reason that guys like Ted and Coop and I object to the “makeout sluts” or making out with multiple guys in the same weekend, behavior Susan describes as non-slutty in the 70s (80s? Shit I don’t remember), is because of this dehumanization and using other people as a dopamine rushes, or basically drugs.”

70’s I think.

This struck me as very promiscuous/slutty behavior, howver, I’m farily certain that I’m completely of of the loop with respect to human nature.

It never really occurred to me that people would make out with people they weren’t seriously immediately interested in entering into what Susan called “going steady” with.

Passer_By

Beta Guy, you are simply redefining the term for your own purposes. The “carousel” is the Alpha Cock Carousel. You don’t ride a cock carousel without riding the cocks.

You’ll have to make up your own term. Maybe, the Ego Validation Circuit.

Feelist

”Your confusing your version of status with actual “status”.’

And what is actual status? The status granted by Game? A career? A PhD?

”Better still, you should consider pursuing women without boyfriends.”

I will. When I meet a girl without a boyfriend. Never seen a girl without a boyfriend. Its either ”complicated”(she’s trying to get the guy to commit) or they’re living with the guy/dating him for several years.

A Definite Beta Guy

What’s tamer and less “cool” than the merry-go-round?

Maybe I’ll just to try steal Musical Chairs: it’s like the merry-go-round, but the seats aren’t as cute and it’s not as fun because it doesn’t move around in a circle and have moving horses that go up and down.

Your Alpha Cock Carousel was what you get when people decided Musical Chairs was too boring.

And now I am reminded of my high school english teacher calling Love riding a Roller Coaster while holding water balloons. There’s a big plunge at the beginning, lots of twists and turns and you’re just hoping you’re not embarrased at the end because the water balloons exploded in your pants.

I’ll take the roller coaster option, thank you!

J

Still, I detect that on some level you would think that the golddigger deserves the money if she had to sleep with the old fart, but I doubt that you would feel similarly for the old fart that fucks her, but never pays out.

Actually it’s sort of amusing either way.

Cooper

“And now I am reminded of my high school english teacher calling Love riding a Roller Coaster while holding water balloons. There’s a big plunge at the beginning, lots of twists and turns and you’re just hoping you’re not embarrased at the end because the water balloons exploded in your pants.

I’ll take the roller coaster option, thank you!”

I didn’t follow this. What other option is there?

JP

@J:

“Actually it’s sort of amusing either way.”

Not for the family who was going to inherit the estate until the 50 year old hussy entered the picture.

This happened to one of my friend’s families.

Apparently he died before she got the will changed, so it all turned out ok, but there was a lot of massive tension and pain before he died as she comlpetely separated him from his family.

As opposed to the woman my father dated who eventually dismissed him, in part because she noticed that he had precisely no interest in his family. I could have told her that at the beginning of the relationship, but nobody asked me.

JP

@Cooper:

“I didn’t follow this. What other option is there?”

The one where you wander around aimlessly until you find yourself married to an attractive 22 year old.

A Definite Beta Guy

Cooper, the Musical Chairs or Alpha Cock Carousel option.

JP

No, I think Cooper wants a specific Cooper-friendly option.

A Definite Beta Guy

Video games and porn.

I can’t think of more than a few women that are worth the aggravation. Not many men either, for that matter.

Passer_By

There’s always the option of going to prison and becoming someone’s bitch.

J

J, the more I hear from you, the more I conclude you and I just have no common frame of reference to even begin to have a discussion. Your reality, I must say, is starkly different from mine.

Yes, I often come to the same conclusion, actually.

I am not making an assumption that every woman has had an ONS. I am talking about women who have fessed up to at least one; and IME it’s nearly every woman who has had sex.

That’s saying that nearly every non-virgin you know has had a ONS, right? I’m a bit confused, but if I misunderstood, I apologize.

I say again: Why? Why even try?

OK, I’ll bite, why do you try? It seems like not just me, but most of the women here have a hard time relating to your experience. Even the young women have questioned the value of hammering on this theme with your daughter. I think most of us feel bad that you got a raw deal in that your wife lied to you, but you had some better opportunities and if IIRC you were very off and on with your wife before the marriage. Surely you had some doubts that you didn’t listen to, and I suppose you made a mistake in settling for her, but why see every other interaction through that lens?

A lot of the young women at HUS that you want to “school” are telling you that the cautionary tales you are telling don’t resonate with them or their experience. Most of the married women are saying that they have marriages that differ wildly from the marriage you describe having. Why is it so hard to believe that it is truth?

Look, I don’t doubt your story. I don’t doubt that there are men with similar stories who really relate to both your problem and the solutions you found for them. I have also seen bits and pieces of it all over the net (including your escape plan), and honestly I don’t feel like you have something happy there I would want to see people emulate. You’ve said that “It’s better now,” but you never really say how. I have the sense that you feel more in charge, but you really don’t sound happy.

The marital problems you describe are I’m certain ones that the guys at D’s and some of the other blogs can relate to, but frankly I can’t relate to them. I don’t fantasize about “5 minutes of alpha,” my husband isn’t worried that I find other men more desirable, no one (at least AFAIK) has a “go bag” packed. Somehow, without too much dominance involved, husband and I seem to have some basic respect for one another. It all feels pretty good and healthy to me, but yeah, my reality is “starkly different” yours. It’s not perfect, but I think the young women here would rather end up like me or Hope or Ana or Susan than like Mrs. Deti, so yeah, I think what I have to say here has value, starkly different though it might be. I understand that you do what it is you think you have to do in survive in the marriage you two have created, Deti. I just don’t believe it’s what everyone has to do.

I hope this doesn’t sound harsh, it just explains my end of the disconnect.

Ted D

“but I think the young women here would rather end up like me or Hope or Ana or Susan than like Mrs. Deti”

Well that’s easy J. Don’t run up your N by banging asshats and then lie about it to get married. If nothing else, is that not a lesson Deti has imparted here? Is his story not a warning to young women contemplating a carousel ride or two?

(Sorry to be so crude Deti. I mean no offense to you or yours. I’m certainly not making light of the situation you are in either.)

J

Well that’s easy J. Don’t run up your N by banging asshats and then lie about it to get married. If nothing else, is that not a lesson Deti has imparted here? Is his story not a warning to young women contemplating a carousel ride or two.

I’ve also seen deti tell young women that n=1 means they will not be able to bond well to their future husbands and that they are, in effect, damaged goods. And that’s just what I mean by saying that he overgeneralizes from his situation to that of others. I can think of other lessons to be drawn from the deti story as well:

–don’t dump a sweet 5 because you dated a 8 once or twice.
–value character over looks
–don’t go off and on with an iffy partner for a period of years
–don’t marry a liar
–let go of worries about how you might compare to previous lovers
–don’t marry a woman who you think is just is settling for you
–understand your own errors in judgement and own them
–if the best woman you attracted was a 5, you are also more than likely a 5; don’t try to punch above your weight class
–if you suspect that your wife isn’t hot for you, don’t make a baby with her

I could go on all night, but I won’t. I will say that deti could have avoided stepping into the shit without attempting to pull the rest of the world into broad societal changes that the social, technological and economy just won’t support. I wish I could make it 1950 again, but that ain’t gonna happen. Those of us who have kids need to teach them to live in the world that actually exists, not waste time trying to turn back the clock.

Passer_By

@sassy

“The last guy I dated (the actor) was 9″ long”

No wonder he didn’t want to get it up more than once or twice a month. He probably got dizzy from lack of oxygen to his brain when all that blood had to go to his schlong.

INTJ

@ Olive

I think your definition of carousel watched is the one that makes sense.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I think your definition of carousel watched is the one that makes sense.

LOL, you’ll have to take that up with Dalrock. Perhaps Olive could submit a change request.

deti

@ J:

“A lot of the young women at HUS that you want to “school” are telling you that the cautionary tales you are telling don’t resonate with them or their experience.”

I am glad. I hope the young women here never, ever get any kind of experience like that. Hopefully they can only hear about it from me, and never have to live it.

“It’s not perfect, but I think the young women here would rather end up like me or Hope or Ana or Susan than like Mrs. Deti, so yeah, I think what I have to say here has value, starkly different though it might be. I understand that you do what it is you think you have to do in survive in the marriage you two have created, Deti. I just don’t believe it’s what everyone has to do.”

Agreed. We all do the best we can with what we have. I don’t begrudge you that, though you certainly seem to begrudge me doing what must be done. You certainly seem to resent me being here and sharing my experience, even as you demand that I respect yours.

I tell others of my experience in the hope that no one else ever has to live it. The fact that you cannot see that, and instead demand that I and others like me simply shut up and disappear, says much more about you than it does about me.

deti

LOL at J following me around the sphere, making reference to my many posts. She claims to disrespect me and attempts to shame me here with “it’s your fault your life is fucked up” language. She claims I am a know-nothing idiot spouting nonsense, yet stalks me all over the place and studies my comments at others’ sites so she can refer to them here.

LOL, sweetie.

Mike C

Mike C comes here and says there shouldn’t be a problem with a 35 YO man’s preference for dating a 23 YO woman, and all hell breaks loose.

Deti,

In all fairness, this wasn’t the case. What apparently caused all hell to break loose was my use of the term feminine imperative which appears to have been added to the ever expanding list of verboten concepts and expressions here

Although Susan may be kosher with a 35 year old man dating a 23-year old women, many women and society at large would view it as “unseemly”. The real reason isn’t any sound moral, logical, or ethical one but simply that 35-year old men should be “reserved” for 30-35 year old women who are now ready to settle down, marry, and have families. In other words, any shaming is intended to prevent the man from following his instinct and preference for youth, and instead fit the timetable/script of the professional woman who is now ready to transition to the next phase.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Although Susan may be kosher with a 35 year old man dating a 23-year old women, many women and society at large would view it as “unseemly”.

Can you give some examples in the culture of men in their mid-30s being shamed for dating women younger than themselves? Or society raising an eyebrow? I can imagine that 35 year-old women might try and pressure a guy, but that’s hardly a society-wide phenomenon, more like a poor individual strategy. I ask because I cannot recall ever having witnessed this.

My oldest friend married to a man 13 years her senior when she was 23, and to my knowledge has never even received a raised eyebrow, nor have I ever heard someone remark on the appropriateness of the age difference.

In addition, the two young women I know in their early 20s dating men 10 years older have gotten some curious, even envious inquiries from friends, but no negative commentary from anyone, including their families. In one case the male is a bit sheepish, but that’s it.

The “feminine imperative” as applied to sex and relationships is a bogeyman cooked up to excuse disappointing personal results. It’s just another way for men to complain about the way women are wired. How dare we try to get our emotional needs met!

Like “female solipsism,” google “feminine imperative” and you get two sources in the entire world: Dalrock and Rollo. It’s totally bogus.

There is an excellent and rational takedown of it here:

The Feminine Imperative: Fact or Crap?
- http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh
  
  P.S. The discussion at the post I linked is current – if you wish to debate the feminine imperative, they’ve got a great debate going there. I will not be hosting a concurrent debate here. I just wanted to point out the conversation if anyone feels the need to discuss it further.

A Definite Beta Guy

@ Passer

No wonder he didn’t want to get it up more than once or twice a month. He probably got dizzy from lack of oxygen to his brain when all that blood had to go to his schlong.

I believe Sassy said she was also into “all night long” sessions, so that once or twice a month is probably close to 10-15 for a normal person.

Poor bastard could have never kept up!

Which is such a shame, because I think all night sessions are probably the greatest thing on Earth, after Battlestar Galactica and blue jeans

J

Agreed. We all do the best we can with what we have. I don’t begrudge you that, though you certainly seem to begrudge me doing what must be done.

Deti, what part of “I understand that you do what it is you think you have to do in survive in the marriage you two have created, Deti. I just don’t believe it’s what everyone has to do.” sounds like I begrudge you? I get that there are things you feel you need to do; I just don’t think you should apply it to random situations.

You certainly seem to resent me being here and sharing my experience, even as you demand that I respect yours.

I wouldn’t say I resent you; I do think some of what you say to young women does more harm than good. I also don’t recall ever demanding your respect or even feeling particularly like I had it.

I tell others of my experience in the hope that no one else ever has to live it. The fact that you cannot see that, and instead demand that I and others like me simply shut up and disappear, says much more about you than it does about me.

Saying that you overgeneralize =/= telling you to shut up. If it were me making that claim, you’d say that the net is a rough and tumble place and that women should stay out of the kitchen if they can’t stand the heat.

LOL at J following me around the sphere, making reference to my many posts.

Oh, Deti, I do not follow you. That’s like my saying that you come over here because you can’t stay away from me. You’re all over the net. If I follow a link someone else posts here, you are often there. I couldn’t avoid you if I tried.

She claims to disrespect me and attempts to shame me here with “it’s your fault your life is fucked up” language.

Gosh, deti, I don’t think I said I disrespected you, though I’m not sure why you’d care. Do you really need to have agreement, submission and deference from every woman around the net in order to feel respected? There are loads of Christian submissives out there awaiting your praises for asking their husbands to spank their asses. Why the hell would you want my respect when you surely have theirs? Why would you even give a damn if some random woman you’ll probably never meet agrees with you or not? It’s not a personal matter if you want women to know that n=1 means they’re ruined for marriage, and I disagree and feel that you’re hurting some poor girl who made the mistake of screwing the wrong guy. Why should you need me to agree to that when you have such a big male fan club?

As to whether or not I’m shaming you by saying you fucked up your life, well, welcome to the club. To one degree or another, everyone fucks up their lives. If you are going to put your story out there as a cautionary tale, people are going to look at it and see the parts where you made mistakes as well as the parts where your wife did. How often when some women makes a mistake, do men in this corner of the net say, “She was stupid to marry him.” or “She chased alphas and deserved what she got.” or “That’s what happens when you chase after Harley Mc Badboy.” or whatever? When you make up cute little names for the guys you think all women crave because of our uncontrollable hypergamy, do you feel like you’re shaming people? Haven’t you said it’s OK to shame women in order to get them to behave?

I do see areas where you could have prevented what happened to you. That’s not shaming. It is pointing out things that you could have done differently and effectively without attempting to reform society in such a way that some random girl has to change her behavior because of something that may not resonate with her. Additionally, the things I listed are good basic advice for readers if we really are interested in helping the next generation. Deti, there are things that have happened to all of us that we could have/should have prevented. I’ve talked here about having been engaged to a narcissist when I was in college. Though I was young, innocent and had the disadvantage of being raised by a narcissistic mother, I own that mistake. I don’t go around crusading against male narcissism or telling young men who are hurting they are ruined for marriage because I made a mistake. I merely avoid narcissists.

Mike C

TMI story time. Yay!

The last guy I dated (the actor) was 9″ long. My ex-bf of one year was 8″ long.

Sassy,

I’m genuinely curious….did you get out a tape measure and actually measure base to tip? I’m not disputing you, but statistically I’m guessing you are talking +3 to + 4 SD on the 9″ and probably around +2 to +3 SD on the 8″. The probability of encountering two guys one after another of that size seems pretty low. Based on personal experience, I found that sometimes women overestimate the actual size based strictly on visual eyeballing compared to an actual measurement.

Passer_By

@mike c

You know the old joke about why women have such poor depth perception.

Also, Sassy, where on the base did you measure from (if you measured)? Makes a big difference. The real measurement is from the top of the base, not on the side or underneath.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Re penis size:

Ninety percent of all men fall between the extremes of 14.5cm (5.6 inches) and 17.5cm (7 inches) despite any claims to the contrary.

http://health.ninemsn.com/menshealth/sexandrelationships/695058/penis-size

So 7 inches is the 90th percentile.

Also found this:

Lengths at each standard deviation:

5th sd below mean: 1.752 inches
4th sd below mean: 2.577 inches
3rd sd below mean: 3.402 inches
2nd sd below mean: 4.227 inches
1st sd below mean: 5.052 inches
Mean: 5.877 inches
1st sd above mean: 6.702 inches
2nd sd above mean: 7.527 inches
3rd sd above mean: 8.352 inches
4th sd above mean: 9.177 inches
5th sd above mean: 10.00 inches

Frequency in population:

1.752 inches: 1 in 3.5 million
2.577 inches: 1 in 31,574
3.402 inches: 1 in 741
4.227 inches: 1 in 44
5.052 inches: 1 in 6
5.877 inches: 1 in 2
6.702 inches: 1 in 6
7.527 inches: 1 in 44
8.352 inches: 1 in 741
9.177 inches: 1 in 31, 574
10.00 inches: 1 in 3.5 million

Rank in population, by percentile:

1.752 inches: 0.0000003rd percentile
2.577 inches: 0.000032nd percentile
3.402 inches: 0.14th percentile
4.227 inches: 2.3rd percentile
5.052 inches: 15.9th percentile
5.877 inches: 50th percentile
6.702 inches: 84.1st percentile
7.527 inches: 97.7th percentile
8.352 inches: 99.86th percentile
9.177 inches: 99.9968th percentile
10.00 inches: 99.99997th percentile

http://www.betterman.com/4545-statistical-truth-about-cock-size.html

Mike C

@mike c

You know the old joke about why women have such poor depth perception.

Haha….I had to Google it.

Also, Sassy, where on the base did you measure from (if you measured)? Makes a big difference. The real measurement is from the top of the base, not on the side or underneath.

Yup. To make this discussion even more crazy…..bodyfat level and any trimming can make a big difference in the visual appearance.

Mike C

Maybe some ugly guys don’t want sex with ugly women but this girl had no trouble finding willing guys.

Han

Beauty is only a lightswitch away

szopen

@j

being some Jewish guy’s concubine in a some Polish or Ukraine town were Jews occupied the lowest rungs of the social ladder was no picnic.

You seem to think that situation of Jews in Poland (and Ukraine, which was part of Poland) was always the same, which is not true. There were periods, were Jews practically were above in position vast majority of population. Surely, being concubine of wealthy arendar may suck, but being a serf without a future sucked even more.

szopen

@mike C

Beauty is only a lightswitch away

Females can be divided into one-sack, two-sack, and three-sack variety.

With one-sack females, you put a sack on their heads during sex.
With two-sack, you put one sack on a head of a female, and second you put on your own head, just to be protected in case a sack will accidentally fall from females head.

With three-sack females, you put one on female head, second on your own head, and the third you put on the head of your dog, so the next day you could look him into the eyes.

Ted D

Susan – “P.S. The discussion at the post I linked is current – if you wish to debate the feminine imperative, they’ve got a great debate going there. I will not be hosting a concurrent debate here. I just wanted to point out the conversation if anyone feels the need to discuss it further.”

DOH we cross posted. If I’d seen your last post sooner I wouldn’t have gone off here. My bad…

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

DOH we cross posted. If I’d seen your last post sooner I wouldn’t have gone off here. My bad…

No problem. I do encourage you to join that discussion. Slumlord is rational, as always, and there are some good points being made.

I general, I feel that peddling concepts that “have some truth to them” is misleading and even dangerous. It invites abuse, prevarication, and facile thinking.

Ion

Iggles

“This is interesting.

I don’t know if mostly unrestricted women are size queens, but I’d wager the correlation is there between casual sex and large size preference.”

I don’t know this for sure, I speculated. Certainly do not want to blame unrestricted women for all problems in the universe that aren’t their fault, but I suppose this is where the confusion may come from? I can’t see a restricted woman who was “trained” on 5 inches (like myself), suddenly craving 8+ inches. Chances are, even restricted women who’s first encounters were with men who were huge might have a larger preference?

“Gay men tend to be size queens and they engage in casual sex at much higher rates than the general population. (Also fun fact: The average penis size for gay men is larger than the size for straight men. This means gay men have bigger dongs!)”

THIS. Not only do I believe this is true, I have been saying this for years. Every last one of my gay male friends have said they have a preference for 8+, many have that size themselves. Perhaps a longer schlong= prostrate stimulation? I have no idea lol.

“Average size is fine for me (5″ – 6″). I would rather pick a guy who is on smaller side of spectrum than one who is bigger! IMO, girth is where it’s at! Thick > thin ”

Haha! I’ve never actually seen something thick either, so I have no preference for thick. However, if I could pick, aesthetically, anything over 7 inches looks gross and 7 is pushing it. Plus, it looks hard to “deep throat” (I had to take it there sorry, TMI) on a guy who is massive. Which is also a turn off.I’ve heard that bigger men have problems getting fully erect, and can be terrible lovers (I imagine it just laying there swooping around like a big eel), hehehe.

Definitely pop culture has something to do with it. Women keep saying they prefer average end of the spectrum, but everywhere we look t.v. is talking about men who are “packing”, as though it should be our natural preference, even though it looks painful or like too much work, and when many men who are packing are gay or bi.

Ted D

“I general, I feel that peddling concepts that “have some truth to them” is misleading and even dangerous. It invites abuse, prevarication, and facile thinking.”

I can see that and will adjust accordingly. It just makes conversations easier to have words that represent entire concepts.

Ted D

And more important than all this debate: I’m above the mean according to the stats you posted above!!!! (not by much, but a win is a win!)

What a way to start Friday off.

Lokland

@Feelist

“Sometimes I think what men(80%) want doesn’t seem to make an appearance. I know we aren’t worthy of being looked at, but I think we still qualify as human beings?”

Great.
Being a human being entails exactly nothing.
No rights to a woman.

“Dude, I’ve been working on these six girls for the past 2 months. Its not like I go up to a woman and talk to her for 40 minutes(if I can get a woman’s attention for that long, with all of her girlfriends and facebook lurking around) and then give up when she doesn’t put out right there.

Those 6 girls, I treated each with different facets of my personality.”

WOW!?

Two whole months, on 6 girls. And none of them worked.
O….M…..G. You best crawl into a hole and buy an Xbox cause there is no hope for you.

Seriously,
WTF are you expecting? Every woman you speak to to drop their skirt within 10 mins? (Ahh what a world.)

We don’t live in that world (agh what a dream).

You get to work within the parameters of reality which is that most women are going to reject you out of hand.

Tough shit.

The only solution is to subsequently increase contact with different woman so that you can increase the number of those that are receptive to your advances.

From those you can select the one who is most well suited for a relationship.

Look, I get it.
I know the hopeless feeling, no one is attracted to me thought process.
I’ve been there, done it, walked through it. I look back and chuckle about it.

It can end. What is takes is a concerted effort on your part.

6 girls in 2 months is not gonna cut it.

Hell, go talk to one girl every Friday for 5 mins and you’ll be ahead of where you are now.

Sassy6519

@ Passer_By

No wonder he didn’t want to get it up more than once or twice a month. He probably got dizzy from lack of oxygen to his brain when all that blood had to go to his schlong.

Hahahaha!! It could be.

@ A Definite Beta Guy

I believe Sassy said she was also into “all night long” sessions, so that once or twice a month is probably close to 10-15 for a normal person.

I do enjoy “all night long” sessions, so that definitely could be another reason. Any man I’ve had sex with has had to practically beg for me to let go of them (and their penises :P). One particularly fond memory involved my ex of one year. He and I had already had sex 3 times that day (overkill, I know). After the last session, he took a shower and decided to work on some coding (he was a software programmer). I wanted to go another round, so I seductively walked into his computer room and started tugging at his shirt sleeve. He looked at me and said “Again?!!”. He put up some resistance for a few minutes, but I decided to straddle him on his office chair. I kissed him and teased him until he was ready to go again, and drug him back to the bedroom. That was a great day. Oh memories…..

@ Mike C

I’m genuinely curious….did you get out a tape measure and actually measure base to tip? I’m not disputing you, but statistically I’m guessing you are talking +3 to + 4 SD on the 9″ and probably around +2 to +3 SD on the 8″. The probability of encountering two guys one after another of that size seems pretty low. Based on personal experience, I found that sometimes women overestimate the actual size based strictly on visual eyeballing compared to an actual measurement.

Yes. With both men, they were proud to let me see their actual measurements, and I whipped out my tape measure.

@ Passer_By

Also, Sassy, where on the base did you measure from (if you measured)? Makes a big difference. The real measurement is from the top of the base, not on the side or underneath.

I measured from the top of the base. I remember how pleased they looked when they saw how my eyes lit up after measuring them. They knew they had huge penises, and they took pride in them (I’m not surprised).

Ted D

“WTF are you expecting? Every woman you speak to to drop their skirt within 10 mins? (Ahh what a world.)”

Who bothers dropping the skirt? Just push that thing up over her hips and get it done!

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Admit it Rollo, you made it up.

Lokland

@Ted

“Who bothers dropping the skirt? Just push that thing up over her hips and get it done!”

Nah. Disrupts the view of the arched back.
Only good for a quickie.

Ted D

Lok – “Nah. Disrupts the view of the arched back.
Only good for a quickie.”

That’s true. I’ll be honest though, sometimes it is VERY hot to simply not bother stripping down. But yeah, those do tend to be of the quick variety…

Ted D

This is exactly why I dislike the use of rhetoric so much. It makes it far too easy to dismiss the message simply because you don’t like how its delivered.

I read stuff from people even though I dislike their “approach” because even though I may not agree with HOW they impart knowledge doesn’t mean they aren’t right. Sure, it’s tough because the knee-jerk reaction is to get defensive and hit the X button to close the window. But, sometimes the ONLY way to find the truth is to suck it up and push through being pissed off.

What difference does it makes who coins a new term, if the foundation of the term is valid? At some point most of them are “made up” by someone, and to me it makes no sense to dismiss the term entirely because of who coined it.

We can debate if the term itself is valid, which seems logical to me. But to simply sweep it aside because of the source seems short sited to me.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

What difference does it makes who coins a new term, if the foundation of the term is valid? At some point most of them are “made up” by someone, and to me it makes no sense to dismiss the term entirely because of who coined it.

I have no problem with someone making something up and then calling it a theory or hypothesis, and opening it up for real debate and testing. I do have a problem with people peddling extreme views that in fact are in no way reviewed by others or subjected to real-life scrutiny.

As for the ad hom, I agree that an idea should not be dismissed solely on the basis of who proposes it. Still, it is fair to “consider the source.” I am infinitely more likely to give credit to someone I know to be a straight shooter with integrity than I am to give it to a shady charlatan. I’m also more likely to reject life advice from someone I consider afflicted with a certain trifecta of nasty traits.

Ted D

sighted* – I really hate typing on a touchscreen…

Escoffier

Susan, I can’t for the life of me see why you got all exasperated about the discussion of the definition of “carousel watcher.” It was not the least bit rancorous. What gives?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Susan, I can’t for the life of me see why you got all exasperated about the discussion of the definition of “carousel watcher.” It was not the least bit rancorous. What gives?

Huh? I wasn’t the least bit exasperated. Not sure why you think that. I confess that Olive’s long comment that was based on different words than I’d actually used was annoying because it always takes me ages to dig up all the relevant links (out of 8,000 I have stored).

As others have mentioned, I have learned the hard way that semantic debates are also a huge timesuck and it’s well worth defining terms clearly up front. As the term “carousel watcher” was invented by Dalrock & Co. to mean a woman who wants to get on the alpha cock carousel but isn’t hot enough, I don’t think it’s wise to begin discussing it here as “a girl who’s willing to make out at a frat party if any of the guys give her a shot.”

Aside from the definition, I think the concept as defined by Lackrod is stupid.

Mike C

Can you give some examples in the culture of men in their mid-30s being shamed for dating women younger than themselves? Or society raising an eyebrow? I can imagine that 35 year-old women might try and pressure a guy, but that’s hardly a society-wide phenomenon, more like a poor individual strategy. I ask because I cannot recall ever having witnessed this.

You broke your Advent pledge

Off the top of my head, no, I can’t itemize specific examples, but I know I’ve read or seen examples of women calling into question certain age differences usually with a reference to the man’s “immaturity” or that he can’t handle a “sophisticated” woman who is equal. Admittedly, from recollection I think I’ve seen this most often with women who lean more hardcore feminist, but they tend to drive the larger public debate in many cases.

The “feminine imperative” as applied to sex and relationships is a bogeyman cooked up to excuse disappointing personal results. It’s just another way for men to complain about the way women are wired. How dare we try to get our emotional needs met!

This is an example of a non-sequitur. “Disappointing personal results” is completely immaterial and irrelevant to whether the term is describing some set of conditions accurately or not. That statement is just a generalized illogical ad hominem. And I have no idea where you whip out the questioning of women getting their emotional needs met. Again, that statement has no logical connection whatsoever to whether the term describes some set of conditions accurately or not. I’ll give you another example. Take the way many homes are decorated. They are typically decorated according to the woman’s preferences. Maybe the guy wants a pool table and foosball table in the middle of the living room. The default societal expectation is that the woman lays out the house according to her sensibilities. Mind you, I’m not debating whether that is right or wrong. I’m simply noting the factual, underlying reality. This is indisputable. You can see this difference in the way “bachelor pads” are set up versus the homes of the typical married couple. I could play this game all day long listing example after example.

Anyways, you don’t want to debate this here….I’m not going to change your mind one iota on any of this anyways so I’ll make this the final comment. You can have the last word if you wish.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Mike C

Yeah I had to choose between breaking my pledge and letting you drag the thread into a rabbit hole.

So if I understand you correctly, examples of society shaming men for dating 12 years down are lacking. In which case you should retract the claim. I disagree that radfems drive the conversation. They have low credibility among the general population.

“Disappointing personal results” is completely immaterial and irrelevant to whether the term is describing some set of conditions accurately or not.

My point is that the term does not describe conditions accurately, and is peddled as a salve for men with bruised egos.

And I have no idea where you whip out the questioning of women getting their emotional needs met.

The feminine imperative states the female needs have primacy, and they are met at the expense of the male. Emotional needs is just one example.

Take the way many homes are decorated. They are typically decorated according to the woman’s preferences.

What a silly example. That’s not a feminine imperative, that’s a direct reflection of sex differences and the female desire to nest. What percentage of men do you believe would like to take on the responsibility for interior decorating?

An analogous example of male primacy would be to note that on Sunday afternoons most TVs in America show football rather than a Lifetime movie. Or that most grills in backyards are manned by men.

You certainly won’t change my mind because the concept is intellectually bankrupt and designed to appeal to male emotions.

Escoffier

I too have noticed the meme that a man who dates much younger is a “cradle robber” but a woman who does so gets told “You go grrl!”

Since there is much less of the latter than the former, perhaps it is assumed that the women need more encouragement.

Susan, you asked for examples, and all I can offer are comments from people I know that span at least a 20 year period. Though I should clarify that “cradle robber” against men has been around far longer than “You go grrl!’ for women, which I only started noticing around 10 years ago.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Susan, you asked for examples, and all I can offer are comments from people I know that span at least a 20 year period. Though I should clarify that “cradle robber” against men has been around far longer than “You go grrl!’ for women, which I only started noticing around 10 years ago.

Men are called cradle robbers for a 12 year age difference? Not in my experience. It is true that society in general is wary of relationships with a huge age difference, or with big gaps when the woman is extremely young, i.e. in her teens. The dynamic bumps up against some things we as a society find problematic:

Pedophilia
Sex for minors
Gold digging
“Daddy” issues

As a father, would you be pleased if your daughter married a man your age?

As for cougars, I think if anything they are mocked in popular culture, not encouraged. Again, this depends on the age difference.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Oh I have no doubt you’ll eventually come to accept it as an applicable term once you can redefine it to fit your own narrative, kinda like you did with ‘Hypergamy’ and ‘Solipsism’.

Who me?

I didn’t redefine, I just pointed out that your beef is with female hard-wiring, and that furthermore, if we weren’t solipsistic and hypergamous you wouldn’t want to fuck us.

Then you’ll be the one claiming responsibility for coining the term.

Yeah, don’t think so. All of these terms – gynocentrism, femcentrism, female imperative, blah blah blah – so silly. They’re nonsense words designed to make men feel better about their failures. It’s not me, it’s the gynocracy!

Jackie

Observation:

It appears the conversation has fallen into the default feedback loop that both sides profess to deplore. It reminds me of how conversations I have with certain people (ones I’m related to!) are really just the same convo, Part XXXLVIII.

I wonder if it’s possible for the participants to either take a different tack, recognize their patterns and default modes. Otherwise, we can cut to the chase, since we already know the ending.

http://asinusspinasmasticans.wordpress.com Mule Chewing Briars

I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the psychic energy running the androsphere is frustration over not having been selected to form part of this fabled carousel.

There is a girl not far from my older daughter’s circle of friends. She comes from a trust-fund type family and already has two children, both girls, by three possible fathers. Since she gets her share of the family money at 25 unless she’s committed a felony, it appears she’s dedicated herself to making the most beautiful children she can with what’s available to her.

My daughter’s girlfriends don’t seem to be jealous of her, nor do they seem to view her as a threat. The attitude of her male friends is somewhat different. It’s like, this girl’s been passing out these A-list eggs free of charge, but I wasn’t found worthy of one.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the psychic energy running the androsphere is frustration over not having been selected to form part of this fabled carousel.

I think that explains a lot. The carousel “providers” at HUS are tickled pink, and more importantly, tend to view a woman’s sexual history in a much more liberal light, which I find interesting.

Ted D

“I am infinitely more likely to give credit to someone I know to be a straight shooter with integrity than I am to give it to a shady charlatan”

And again this is why I think rhetoric sucks. This statement strikes me as completely fair, but still has the potential to cause important details to be missed strictly on who delivered it.

And what makes this worse is I believe that most people base most/all of their decisions on rhetorical nonsense without even looking at the foundation of the claims being made. In short, they like what they hear and automatically take it to be Gospel. Seems like an easy way to slip a lot of nefarious stuff into the law books.

Ted D

MCB – “It’s like, this girl’s been passing out these A-list eggs free of charge, but I wasn’t found worthy of one.”

Well damn, that is indeed an interesting observation. I’m gonna have to chew (no pun intended) on this for a bit, but I think it has some merit.

Of course I’ve never once claimed that men are without blame in all this. In the least men were complacent and/or involved in getting us here. The question is: did they do it with eyes wide open, or eyes wide shut?

deti

“All of these terms – gynocentrism, femcentrism, female imperative, blah blah blah – so silly. They’re nonsense words designed to make men feel better about their failures.”

Hmmm. And the Kate Bolick article and its followups are designed to make women feel better about their failures, which they keep trying to tell us aren’t failures but rather are lifestyle choices.

Other memes and occurrences designed to make women feel better about their failures:

–“You’ve come a long way, baby!”
–The fat (women) acceptance movement
–“Where are all the good men!?”
–All men are jerks
–Professional sex pozzies renouncing their prior lifestyles, e.g. Tracy Clark Flory
–Divorce ceremonies and parties
–WGTOW (“Women Going Their Own Way”)

I realize none of this nonsense is promoted here. And I don’t agree the feminine imperative is “nonsense”. The point is men have no monopoly on trying to make sense of the world around them.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

And the Kate Bolick article and its followups are designed to make women feel better about their failures, which they keep trying to tell us aren’t failures but rather are lifestyle choices.

No, Kate Bolick did admit to failure, and wrote an article about how to proceed in her life without the choice of marriage. I’ll admit she put a positive spin on facing the last half of her life as a single woman, and I don’t blame her. Should she shoot herself instead?

”You’ve come a long way, baby!”

This wasn’t about failure, it was about success.

–The fat (women) acceptance movement

What is this movement? Is this an organization with meetings and publications? I am aware of large women trying to feel good about themselves, but I can’t recall seeing anyone, including them, trying to shame men into dating obese women. Can you give some examples?

Aren’t you preaching that women should mate with unattractive men? How is that different?

–”Where are all the good men!?”

Where are all the good women? Western women are manly, aggressive, ugly, entitled bitches.

–All men are jerks

All women want to ride the alpha cock carousel.

–Professional sex pozzies renouncing their prior lifestyles, e.g. Tracy Clark Flory

She took responsibility for her failures. That was not a PR job.

–Divorce ceremonies and parties

How common is this? I honestly don’t know because I don’t know many people who have divorced. But is it any better than the accolades Jack Welch got when he dumped his longtime wife for Suzy?

–WGTOW (“Women Going Their Own Way”)

MGTOW?

Escoffier

1) 12 year age difference depends on how old both people are. 62 y/o man dating 50 y/o woman? No one cares. 52 male + 40 female? Few will call the man a perv, though some (women) will frown. More often you will hear “Poor girl, couldn’t she land someone younger?” Get down to 34 y/o male with 22 y/o female and, yeah, most women will not like that.

The phrase “age [in]appropriate” has become common in Manhattan in my experience and it is ALWAYS used by women to express either approval or disapproval of men based on the age of their dates/SOs.

2) Depends, what age would she be?

3) I think you are right that cougars are treated as pathetic but only in a certain way. That’s what most people think deep down but the cultural/feminist meme is that it is sexist to think so, and so people cover up their contempt with hollow words of encouragement. Try actually saying in a social setting to a bunch of women “40 y/o Jane is trolling the Murray Hill bars for 20-something men, how sad” and you will get an agry reaction and many of it not most of the women will praise Jane for being “empowered.” They may not all believe it deep down but they feel obligated to SAY it.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Get down to 34 y/o male with 22 y/o female and, yeah, most women will not like that.

I think most women who are 34 will not like that. We even saw that dynamic here when I wrote a post encouraging women of 21 to date 5-10 years older. That is just self-preservation, and it’s really no different than young guys 21-23 not liking my advice for women to avoid them after college.

Try actually saying in a social setting to a bunch of women “40 y/o Jane is trolling the Murray Hill bars for 20-something men, how sad” and you will get an agry reaction and many of it not most of the women will praise Jane for being “empowered.” They may not all believe it deep down but they feel obligated to SAY it.

Well, again, I’m not surprised 40 yo women would respond that way. If you said that to 25 yo women, they’d enthusiastically agree.

There is a vast difference between a “feminine imperative conspiracy” and plain old intrasexual female competition.

Ted D

Susan – “Men are called cradle robbers for a 12 year age difference? Not in my experience. ”

My wife is a whopping 8 years younger than I am, and I’ve had more than my fair share of “jokes” about cradle robbing sent my way. I’m in no way exaggerating or making this up. My male friends tended to say it as a “good job for getting a younger model” out of the deal. I can’t say for sure if any of the women that made such comments were being funny, or if there was some underlying message that they disprove, but I heard it from them all the same.

Mind you, at the time we met, my wife was 32. Hardly a “baby” or “immature” woman. Yet, the idea that somehow I was “cheating the system” by locking her down still rang true enough for people to make comments. And also, keep in mind that I DID NOT go out looking to “trade up” to a younger wife. I was basically dumped by the wife I had, and through dumb luck found myself with a women several years younger than she was.

Cooper

@Lokland

You doing a much better job talking to Feelist than I could.
Maybe it’s cause I’m still in it, but it sucks to was to provide encouragement when the only things worth saying are the exact thing I typically hate hearing: tough shit, suck it up, and (worst of all) just wait a while. (All correct though)

One thing that I’ve noticed, in my almost 1year anniversary of frequenting HUS, is that the better I am feeling, the less I’m compelled to address the roundabout situations of the SMP. When I hear it from someone else, I tend to look back on things, and realize that things aren’t that bad, and they do get better. It also reminds me about how little I’m invested in ‘fixing’ it, cause if it wasn’t soo volatile then the good people wouldn’t be deciding to get out of it so quickly, and surely.

It also makes my realize what affect believing “I’ll find (that ideal) someone” has young people. I think both young men and women navigate the SMP with a forever-young attitude, or with little urgency.

tl;dr
Reading here does sometimes make me think that things (the SMP) are the way they are for a reason. And it serves to weed out the bad fairly well, as well as leave it up to the good to reap what they sow. (in a good way)

Ted D

“As for cougars, I think if anything they are mocked in popular culture, not encouraged. ”

Really? You’ve never seen the show Cougartown? Sure, it’s a sitcom comedy, but the few times I’ve seen it (not by choice…) I didn’t see anyone poking much fun at the female characters expense.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Really? You’ve never seen the show Cougartown? Sure, it’s a sitcom comedy, but the few times I’ve seen it (not by choice…) I didn’t see anyone poking much fun at the female characters expense.

I haven’t seen it, but I assume it’s like Jersey Shore. The whole idea is to mock the characters and feel superior to them.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

I confess that Olive’s long comment that was based on different words than I’d actually used was annoying

Susan, if you had pointed out, in your first response comment, that you had been talking about casual sex, and not casual encounters, which I clearly defined in my first comment to mean interactions outside the realm of P in V/oral/anal, I would’ve dropped it. As it were, you instead used the term “hooking up” in your first response to me, which muddied the waters.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

ugh blockquote fail again

Ted D

Cooper – “And it serves to weed out the bad fairly well, as well as leave it up to the good to reap what they sow. (in a good way)”

Well my primary issue with this is that as a side effect, we are seeing increasing amounts of OOW births and really screwed up environments in the poor and lower SES groups. And remember, I say that coming from a single mother household. I don’t take it lightly, because my views on this pretty much paint my mother in a rather negative light. It isn’t my intent, but to me the message is more important than any individual person’s “reputation” or whatever. My mom screwed up and made the best of it. On an individual level that is all most of us can ever do. But, if things weren’t so screwed up, we wouldn’t HAVE to “make the best of it” at all.

Iggles

@ Ion:

I don’t know this for sure, I speculated. Certainly do not want to blame unrestricted women for all problems in the universe that aren’t their fault, but I suppose this is where the confusion may come from? I can’t see a restricted woman who was “trained” on 5 inches (like myself), suddenly craving 8+ inches.

Hmm. I don’t know if. Maybe since unrestricted women are prone to have more partners, they get exposed to larger men?

It’s a possibility, but I’m uncomfortable arguing that those women get hooked are guy with larger dongs and then aren’t satisfied with average/below average men. But again, I do see a kernel of truth. Once you “stretch”, you accommodate that size and over time smaller sizes don’t have the same feel. Yikes.. not going to follow that train of thought..

Chances are, even restricted women who’s first encounters were with men who were huge might have a larger preference?

Perhaps.

THIS. Not only do I believe this is true, I have been saying this for years. Every last one of my gay male friends have said they have a preference for 8+, many have that size themselves.

Ha! It is quite curious.

In general I think men (whether straight or gay) spend WAY more time thinking about penis size than women do!

Haha! I’ve never actually seen something thick either, so I have no preference for thick.

TMI moment! Size thick guys have been my experience, maybe that’s why I prefer it? Hmm, in real life I haven’t seen any thin penises.

However, if I could pick, aesthetically, anything over 7 inches looks gross and 7 is pushing it. Plus, it looks hard to “deep throat” (I had to take it there sorry, TMI) on a guy who is massive.

Lol! FWIW, girth also affects the ease/difficulty of giving BJs. I’d imagine a thinner guy would be easier because you don’t have to stretch as much.

Ok, TMI over! One more for the road..

Which is also a turn off.I’ve heard that bigger men have problems getting fully erect, and can be terrible lovers (I imagine it just laying there swooping around like a big eel), hehehe.

THIS made me laugh out loud! Ion FTW

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

What is this movement? Is this an organization with meetings and publications? I am aware of large women trying to feel good about themselves, but I can’t recall seeing anyone, including them, trying to shame men into dating obese women. Can you give some examples?

Actually, people here might find this interesting. The other day out of sheer boredom, I turned on Catfish, that new MTV show about introducing longtime internet friends (and “more than friends”) to each other. In the episode, a pretty big girl (I’d say 200-250 pounds at least) really wanted to meet her internet friend of 10 years, because she thought she might be in love with him. However he kept weaving and dodging. When they finally met, it turned out the guy was huge, probably at least 550 pounds, and he was embarrassed about it. The rest of the episode was mostly about his weight, and how he was trying to manage it and felt awful about it, and the girl didn’t exactly run into his arms upon first spotting him.

All that’s fine and good, but I just found it interesting that they spent a good bit of time discussing his weight, but barely any time mentioning her weight.

There’s more fuel for ya, Ramble.

Ted D

Susan – “There is a vast difference between a “feminine imperative conspiracy” and plain old intrasexual female competition.”

Maybe. Since it is generally older women that get the chance to participate in creating legislation and/or “social policy”, I’d say that intrasexual competition is part of the “feminine imperative” as we are discussing it. Of course that is just my observation…

J

Ted, they must be fooling around or a little jealous. Eight years is hardly robbing the cradle. Ten years or moe gets a bit problematic, but IMO cradle-robbing starts at 15 years.

Ted D

Susan – “I haven’t seen it, but I assume it’s like Jersey Shore. The whole idea is to mock the characters and feel superior to them.”

Even if the idea is to “mock and feel superior”, don’t you think that just having such a show works towards making the behaviors depicted more “main stream” and accepted? Jersey Shore was total trash, but look at how popular it became. Look at how many young kids began to emulate the style and behavior of the people in the show.

It is a form of rhetoric to make fun of something in order to make it less threatening, and allow it to be adopted by the populace at large. In a way, it desensitizes us to what we find morally corrupt until we no longer judge the behavior as bad.

J

@Sassy

What ethnicities were the 8 and 9 inchers? If Passer_By is correct, they should have been Jewish and black respectively.

BTW, there’s no such thing as TMI.

@Passer_By

I just saw some of your witty responses to me. You are funny!

J

With three-sack females, you put one on female head, second on your own head, and the third you put on the head of your dog, so the next day you could look him into the eyes.

LOL.

BTW, is szopen pronounced like Chopin?

Ted D

J – “Ted, they must be fooling around or a little jealous. Eight years is hardly robbing the cradle. Ten years or moe gets a bit problematic, but IMO cradle-robbing starts at 15 years.”

I firmly believe my friends were joking and I said so. But, these weren’t all friends. Hell, even a few of my daughter’s friends made comments, and they were in the age bracket of 25 – 18 years old. It didn’t bother me in the least, but it certainly seems to show that the idea of “cradle robbing” is alive and well, even when the people involved are far from being in a cradle.

FWIW I’m younger than my wife’s first husband by about 4 years.

deti

“Aren’t you preaching that women should mate with unattractive men? How is that different?”

No, I am not preaching that. I do think, however, there are a lot of women who refuse to find anything attractive about the men they can pull.

As I have said many times here and elsewhere, many women display a disconnect, a lack of understanding, of the difference between what they can have for a night and what they can have for a lifetime.

Not everyone gets to buy a horse off the carousel. There aren’t nearly enough to go around to every woman who wants one; and most are only for rent, not for sale.

Now I know not every woman wants a horse off the carousel; but at the same time I don’t see a lot of satisfaction with the other horses that didn’t get installed on the carousel but instead make the rest of the carnival work. She could buy one of those horses but doesn’t want one. You’re trying to get them to look at the other horses, but I suspect most of the SMP isn’t listening to you. In fact what I see is a large percentage of women being unwilling to even look at or consider the rest of the horses.

And that, I submit, is the problem.

Ted D

“in the age bracket of 25 – 18″

DOH 15 – 18…

Cooper

Ted,

I see what your saying. I guess what I was trying to say is that this SMP, despite how bad it may be, does promote being proactive. And more so for those who know what they want out of it, cause they’re more likely to know how bad it is.

Ted D

Deti – “And that, I submit, is the problem.”

+1

J

Iggles, thanks for the heads up a while back.

@JP

Not for the family who was going to inherit the estate until the 50 year old hussy entered the picture.

I was sort of being flip because I do enjoy people being hoisted on their own petards. I’m glad the thing with your friend’s family worked out.

As opposed to the woman my father dated who eventually dismissed him, in part because she noticed that he had precisely no interest in his family. I could have told her that at the beginning of the relationship, but nobody asked me.

Now that was a woman of good character! Sorry things are better with your dad.

@Lokland

I really don’t mean to be lacking in empathy. Sometimes, when you see people whipping the same dead horse for years on end, it feels like the kindest thing is to tell them to stop.

J

Hell, even a few of my daughter’s friends made comments, and they were in the age bracket of 25 – 18 years old

LOL. To kids, you’re ancient at 40!

Anyway, there’s nothing wrong with an 8 year gap IMO.

Sassy6519

@ J

What ethnicities were the 8 and 9 inchers? If Passer_By is correct, they should have been Jewish and black respectively.

BTW, there’s no such thing as TMI.

They were both Caucasian. My ex of 1 year was a quarter Italian with some French/German mixed in. The actor ex-bf had Dutch ancestry.

I’ve actually never kissed or had sex with an African-American male before. I’ve only ever been with white males. I guess I’ve just been lucky to find ones who have huge penises (or I have a magical large penis “radar”).

Iggles

@ J:

Iggles, thanks for the heads up a while back.

No prob
I learned from experience not to feed the troll..

Ted D

J – Oh I agree on both counts!

I don’t have a problem with it. I’m just pointing out to Susan that despite the fact that she has never heard such comments, I have heard them plenty. I used to get the same crap from my first marriage early on, because although I was 26 when we married, she was 21, and looked VERY MUCH like she was still in high school. Mind you, she had a child. The looks I used to get from old ladies in the super market used to make me laugh, usually right in their faces as they scowled at me with that “what did YOU DO to that poor young thing?” look on their faces. Hell, the child wasn’t even mine! What I did was give a single mother a shot at a better life by provided for her, but you’d think I murdered the Pope!

Lokland

@Cooper

I showed up like 6 months (maybe more) before you did.
The red pill goes down like a shot of 151.

Anger, frustration, lack of hope.

In reality, its not that bad.
I found myself not trusting my wife. Its hard to believe I actually doubted her.
Just looking at her I can see most of what the sphere wants to be scared of is a load of shit.

I stopped reading over the summer which allowed me to relax, take a deep breath and observe the reality.
The knowledge is still there but the red shroud over my vision is gone.

Theres only one way out of your hole. Being pissed that your in the hole will not assist in getting you out of the hole.

@J

When I was 18 I sounded exactly like him.
Excluding the obsession with porn, word for word, he is saying exactly what I said.

Never get married, women will never be attracted etc. etc.

I know exactly how he feels.

No one helped me. I had to figure it out on my own.
He shouldn’t have too.

Feelist

”Great.
Being a human being entails exactly nothing.
No rights to a woman.”

That’s fine by me.

Feelist

”Great.
Being a human being entails exactly nothing.
No rights to a woman.”

Just don’t be wondering in amazement why young men are retreating from society. This morning I watched as a young man refused to give up his seat for an elderly man. Why was the elderly man surprised?

Watched another young man walk by as a young woman was being assaulted by a thugish-looking fella. Why should any human being have the right to protection or help from another human being?

What you don’t seem to understand is that when men don’t get anything from society, we watch it fall apart. 40 years from now you’ll be that man.

You are on your own. So, if I can’t have what other guys have because they hit the genetic lottery, then at least I’m going to have a hell of a fun watching it all burn.

J

Sassy, I didn’t actually expect a serious answer to my question. I was just playing around with yesterday’s discussion and not actually prying into your business. Sorry if I intruded.

I tend not to believe stereotypes about ethnicity and penis size and was playing with those ideas not questioning your sexual history.

Escoffier

Exposure to the red pill has never made me doubt my wife for an instant. I’m sure they’d just say I’m a sap. I would say that I am an empiricist and before I start not trusting her, I need some actual evidence–from HER, not from bloggers who’ve never met her–that she is untrustworthy. So far, none yet.

Sassy6519

@ J

Sassy, I didn’t actually expect a serious answer to my question. I was just playing around with yesterday’s discussion and not actually prying into your business. Sorry if I intruded.

I tend not to believe stereotypes about ethnicity and penis size and was playing with those ideas not questioning your sexual history.

You didn’t intrude at all. No worries, J.

Passer_By

@ion

“I’ve heard that bigger men have problems getting fully erect, and can be terrible lovers (I imagine it just laying there swooping around like a big eel), hehehe. ”

This depends on whether he is a “shower” or a “grower.” Large dicked guys who remain large when flaccid (the “showers”) tend to have soft erections. Large dicked guys who are only large when erect (i.e., have a substantial differential between flaccid size and erect size) tend to have much firmer erections. Hope that information helps in your search for the perfect penis (or are you already married? can’t recall).

P.S. Reading this post, I want to clarify that a “shower” is one who shows. Not the thing you do when you stand under the water flow in the morning.

@J

At least I make someone besides myself laugh!

Ramble

Can you give some examples in the culture of men in their mid-30s being shamed for dating women younger than themselves?

Ross, on Friends. And he was, supposedly, in his late 20’s.

Grayson (Josh Hopkins) on Cougartown was consistently ridiculed by the (older) women of the show for the “bimbos” he dated. And the younger girls were always shown to be absolute idiots.

There are a bunch of examples, I simply chose Courtney Cox shows.

However, I mostly agree with you that guys in their mid 30s dating girls in their mid 20s is usually not that shameful.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

Ross, on Friends. And he was, supposedly, in his late 20′s.

How old was the girl? What did his friends find objectionable?

Grayson (Josh Hopkins) on Cougartown was consistently ridiculed by the (older) women of the show for the “bimbos” he dated. And the younger girls were always shown to be absolute idiots.

I did write about a study that showed exploitative men like their women hot and dumb. I would definitely shame a man for dating a bimbo. I’d also shame a woman for dating a mimbo.

Ramble

The “feminine imperative” as applied to sex and relationships is a bogeyman cooked up to excuse disappointing personal results.

The female imperative is no boogeyman when it comes to pop culture. The common narrative in Pop Culture for the last 25 years has stayed pretty close to the female imperative, though, recently, I have seen some changes.

J

People make weird assumptions. I was once in the mall with my kids and parents. My son, who couldn’t yet say “Grandpa” used to call my father Pa. Anyway, he decided he wanted ice cream and began begging my dad who was happy to stuff the kid with snacks. My dad took him over to an ice cream stand, and I followed them with my then baby in my arms. After getting his ice cream, my son said, “Thanks, Pa.” The teenage girl behind the counter flipped. I LMAO. I look like my dad. My son looks like me. I called my father Dad. I thought it should have been obvious we were father, daugher and grandsons, but I guess not.

My dad was appalled, but my mom LHAO.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@J

I’ve told this story before, but in my daughter’s high school circle there were three girls whose fathers were in the 70-90 age range. None of them were first marriages, obvs. All three men were very wealthy. Ann, the girl with the 90 year old dad, had a gathering at her home before prom. Dad was in a wheelchair, and had a fetching nurse dressed in a traditional nurse’s uniform by his side. My daughter approached to introduce herself and thank him for his hospitality. He grabbed her by the arm, pulling her toward him and shouting, “Ann! Ann! Is that you?” It was like something out of Dickens.

Passer_By

Popular entertainment has a love-hate relationship with the older man/younger woman pairing. We see many many movies where there is a 20 year or more age gap between the real life ages of the actor and actress, but people accept it without objection. They tend to gloss over the age issue in the movie by just not specifying, but not always.

But feminists hate this and have long complained about it. It’s a big issue to them, and they are starting to win out with their complaints – particularly on television shows.

Escoffier

Once in Burbank I stopped at light in my junky Olds and an expensive red convertible pulled up next to me (I can’t remember the make). I looked over and Courtney Cox was behind the wheel. This was at the height of Friends’ success. She flashed me a 500 megawatt smile and then, before I even noticed the light had turned green, gunned it and zoomed about a mile down the road.

Things like this occasionally happen in LA.

Ramble

Susan, her takedown of the Female Imperative is based on statements/definitions, like these:

The Feminine Imperative is the multitude of spoken or unspoken rules, societal norms, and expectations that are set in place to benefit women’s goals without any regard to men’s.

and

Expect the feminine imperative to fight tooth and nail to censor, malign and distort anything coming close to helping men become more aware of the machinations of feminine primacy.

You’ll notice the parts that I highlighted. These statements are extreme and absolutist and, therefore, probably deserve to be taken down.

However, inasmuch as they are extreme statements, they can act like strawmen in a simple debate.

Had there been more nuance and insight in these definitions (like one I can imagine Bastiat conjuring), the debate would be much more interesting and instructive.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

I think those statement were quoting Rollo. Anyway, it looked like the debate petered out quickly. Slumlord had the best reply.

Iggles

My dad was appalled, but my mom LHAO.

Terrible but hilarious!

Passer_By

@escoffier

“Things like this occasionally happen in LA.”

Yeah, with me it’s usually Roseanne Barr.

Ramble

I do enjoy “all night long” sessions, so that definitely could be another reason.

Sassy, how often would you orgasm during all night sessions?

Iggles

@ Ted D:

although I was 26 when we married, she was 21, and looked VERY MUCH like she was still in high school. Mind you, she had a child. The looks I used to get from old ladies in the super market used to make me laugh

If it’s any consolation, I’m sure she got dirty looks all the time for looking so young and having a child.

When my nephew was born I was 18, but looked years younger. I hated the accusatory looks I’d get when taking him to the park or for a stroll outside, I wanted to scream: “I’m his AUNT!”

Also, my senior year of high school I had a short schedule due to taking advanced classes in previous years. I’d be done by 1pm and coming home on the train I’d get disapproving looks from elders who thought I was cutting class!

Ted D

Lokland – “I found myself not trusting my wife. Its hard to believe I actually doubted her.
Just looking at her I can see most of what the sphere wants to be scared of is a load of shit.”

I went through this as well. But, I feel the need to point out, that YOUR WIFE may be totally trustworthy (and of course I hope she is) but many woman are not. THAT was the conclusion I had to come to, that although my wife may be a worthy woman, it doesn’t mean that any other woman in the world is.

Passer_By

@Ramble

“There are a bunch of examples, I simply chose Courtney Cox shows.”

Well, if we’re going to focus on Friends, remember when it was ok for Cox to be the “Twinkie in the City” for the much older Tom Selleck. So there is even inconsistency in that one series. Maybe it’s ok for 55 year olds to date women in their late 20s/ early 30s whose time is running out to have kids, but not ok for 35 year old men to date down in age rather than date the women whose time is running out. Dunno.

http://www.femaleframechanges.blogspot.com Olive

Re: younger looking people,
When my uncle was born, my grandma was out walking around the maternity ward, and a nurse told her to go back to the children’s ward. She was 24.

I STILL get children’s menus for 12 and under. Most recently, I was with my boyfriend when it happened. I wanted to say “who do you think he is, some creepy kidnapper?”

Ramble

Take the way many homes are decorated. They are typically decorated according to the woman’s preferences.

What a silly example. That’s not a feminine imperative, that’s a direct reflection of sex differences and the female desire to nest. What percentage of men do you believe would like to take on the responsibility for interior decorating?

An analogous example of male primacy would be to note that on Sunday afternoons most TVs in America show football rather than a Lifetime movie. Or that most grills in backyards are manned by men.

You certainly won’t change my mind because the concept is intellectually bankrupt and designed to appeal to male emotions.

Susan, I get what you are trying to say here, but I think that you are a little off. The interior decoration of homes has become much more feminine over the years. So much so that even NPR felt the need to report on how more and more men prefer to spend time in their garages and shacks because they have been “chased” out of their homes. This is also, supposedly, the cause of the relatively recent phenomenon as the Man Cave.

But this is not that analogous to the Sunday Football example because, one, their are almost always multiple TVs in the house with, usually, only one showing football, and, two, on your average Sunday (i.e. not Superbowl Sunday), many men will watch football in their basement or Man Cave.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ramble

I did not know that about houses getting more female. That sounds like more masculine behavior by women and feminine behavior from men! Tell her you’re not going to tolerate six lacy pillows on the bed! (That’s what my husband did.)

Neither I nor my husband has an area in the house that is just for us alone. My “office” is the living room. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people having their own spaces, and I imagine some people want that option regardless of how much they like the decor.

Even when I was a kid, dads often retreated to garages, basements, the “den,” which was generally quite masculine, or a home office.

Escoffier

PB, remember the fat actress who was in all the John Hughes movies? E.g., she was Rooney’s secretary in “Ferris Bueller”. She one told me to “get the fuck out of the way” in a buffet line. And then flashed me the sweetest smile!

Passer_By

“Sassy, how often would you orgasm during all night sessions?”

Also, Sassy, are you a moaner or a screamer?

Ramble

There’s more fuel for ya, Ramble.

I don’t need more fuel, but thank you for thinking about me. And, for the record, I almost never focus on obesity since I find that it muddies the waters. That is, you can easily find obese people on TV, and you can very easily find slim people on TV, but you rarely see people (especially girls between the ages of 18-35) who are moderately overweight (i.e. “uh, no, she is not fat, but, you know, she could lose a few pounds”). They tend to make matters far too complicated and interesting. It is one of the reasons why Lena Dunham has been so interesting.

Ramble

I’ve actually never kissed or had sex with an African-American male before. I’ve only ever been with white males.

Wow!

For a girl who has kissed more than a few guys, I found that very interesting, though, not completely surprising.

Cooper

@Lokland
“Theres only one way out of your hole. Being pissed that your in the hole will not assist in getting you out of the hole.”

I take it you don’t think I’m pissed though.

Sassy6519

@ Ramble

Sassy, how often would you orgasm during all night sessions?

It varies. Sometimes I get there a lot (4-6 times). Other times, I get there less frequently (1-3) times. Either way, I enjoy all night sessions just the same.

Ramble

Maybe it’s ok for 55 year olds to date women in their late 20s/ early 30s whose time is running out to have kids, but not ok for 35 year old men to date down in age rather than date the women whose time is running out. Dunno.

Right. In fact, they often made it a point that Richard (Selleck) was the only good ex-boyfriend any of the girls had had. He was never ridiculed.

J

@Lokland

He shouldn’t have to.

I think a lot of us felt that way. I was fairly sure I’d never marry, that no one would ever love me, that I was unworthy, that men who seemed attracted only wanted a piece of ass, that maybe I was just a butterface. Sometimes, all you can do is live through it. It gets better for most people.

In reality, its not that bad. I found myself not trusting my wife. Its hard to believe I actually doubted her. Just looking at her I can see most of what the sphere wants to be scared of is a load of shit.

This is exactly my problem with the constant whipping at the same dead horses. In the end, it just makes people miserable–and for what?

Ramble

It varies. Sometimes I get there a lot (4-6 times). Other times, I get there less frequently (1-3) times. Either way, I enjoy all night sessions just the same.

I have never been with a girl that did not pass out after a nighttime orgasm. During the day, it is a little different. Maybe a nap, maybe just some mild dozing, maybe a full sleep/nap.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

I have never been with a girl that did not pass out after a nighttime orgasm.

It’s the best cure for insomnia.

Ted D

“It varies. Sometimes I get there a lot (4-6 times). Other times, I get there less frequently (1-3) times. Either way, I enjoy all night sessions just the same.”

This is interesting. I didn’t realize until recently that a woman DOES NOT necessarily have to have an orgasm to enjoy a sexual encounter, but my wife told me it isn’t necessary at all. I’ll fully admit that my view on it was projection, because IME having sex without an orgasm usually results in “blue balls” which is very uncomfortable.

The funny thing is, knowing this made our sex life MUCH better, because I stopped concentrating on getting her off and put that effort into just making it a great experience, which oddly enough caused her to have more orgasms.

Ted D

J – “This is exactly my problem with the constant whipping at the same dead horses. In the end, it just makes people miserable–and for what?”

As a cautionary tale to those that haven’t yet seen that dead horse?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7XzcGnUCI0&ei=gATCUKaBJ6a00AH OffTheCuff

An all-nighter should mean she loses count at the very least, or they all overlap into a steady state at best. Come on, guys, up your game.

J

@Iggles

I know, but I look so much like my dad…..Of course, my son does as well.

Currently, my son looks so much like my dad that he himself did a double take when shown a picture of my dad from the 30s. He has no conception of dad as a young man. He actually asked, “Who is this? I don’t remember ever dressing like that for Halloween, but that’s gotta be me.”

Sassy6519

@ Passer_By

Also, Sassy, are you a moaner or a screamer?

Both.

@ Ramble

Wow!

For a girl who has kissed more than a few guys, I found that very interesting, though, not completely surprising.

Haha! Yeah.

@ Ted D

This is interesting. I didn’t realize until recently that a woman DOES NOT necessarily have to have an orgasm to enjoy a sexual encounter, but my wife told me it isn’t necessary at all. I’ll fully admit that my view on it was projection, because IME having sex without an orgasm usually results in “blue balls” which is very uncomfortable.

The funny thing is, knowing this made our sex life MUCH better, because I stopped concentrating on getting her off and put that effort into just making it a great experience, which oddly enough caused her to have more orgasms.

Definitely. I can only speak for myself when I say this. I definitely love having orgasms, but sometimes the best part of sex is just melding with your partner. The kissing, touching, rubbing, heat, sweat, and contact can be the best parts.

@ OffTheCuff

An all-nighter should mean she loses count at the very least, or they all overlap into a steady state at best. Come on, guys, up your game.

Hahaha!

J

I’d be done by 1pm and coming home on the train I’d get disapproving looks from elders who thought I was cutting class!

I once overheard some nasty remarks from some teen girls regarding that “old broad with the cute young guy” while I was eating lunch with son. When he got up to use the bathroom, I leaned over and said, “You ladies should try to be nicer, you never know whose mom you’re alienating.”

J

As a cautionary tale to those that haven’t yet seen that dead horse?

Depends. How shrill does the teller of the tale sound?

Ramble

I leaned over and said, “You ladies should try to be nicer, you never know whose mom you’re alienating.”

J, sometimes I get the idea that you are the American female version of David Niven.

Like, one night there will be this dinner party where I am really getting heated over something you implied, and then, in one small sentence, you would destroy me, without trying, right before sipping from your Martini.

I hate women like that.

Just let me win.

J

Oh, Ramble, I am literally LMAO. I must admit that I do have a dry and nasty sense of humor. I do like you enough to let you win every once in a while. But not too often.

DH has a similar sense of humor. A lot of people really enjoy our chemistry. We were once at a party when someone asked DH who wears eeh pants in our house. DH replied, without missing a beat, that our lives are so much better when the pants are off.

Now off to the grocery store……

Ted D

J – “Depends. How shrill does the teller of the tale sound?”

In real life I don’t think I sound shrill, but I have a VERY loud voice. When I’m I have to use the phone at the office, I more often than not go into a conference room because even if I try to be quiet, I bother the folks all around me.

But yes, I do get your point. Keep in mind, just because you and I may have gone round and round on a specific point, doesn’t mean there isn’t a new lurker here that has never seen it before.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Ted

. When I’m I have to use the phone at the office, I more often than not go into a conference room because even if I try to be quiet, I bother the folks all around me.

Those loud outbursts of laughter you report must really rattle the windows!

Ion

“This depends on whether he is a “shower” or a “grower.” Large dicked guys who remain large when flaccid (the “showers”) tend to have soft erections.”

Bwahaha. Thanks for the info Passer_By, I had no idea there was a distinction, but I’ll keep that in mind on my hunt for the perfect penis :-). Floppy halfway erect penises never seemed interesting, but I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing a large one, and 7 is definitely large. I’d prefer that to 4 inches, but I’d prefer any size over 7.5 and above.

@ Iggles re girth. It’s hard to say if the guys I was with were thick or thin (I never measured), I assumed they were on the thin side (around 2 inches around the head). I’ve seen larger in porn where the guy is like 3 or 4 inches around and 8-9 inches long, and oral just doesn’t seem like it would be as fun..at all.

Ion

J

“Currently, my son looks so much like my dad that he himself did a double take when shown a picture of my dad from the 30s. He has no conception of dad as a young man. He actually asked, “Who is this? I don’t remember ever dressing like that for Halloween, but that’s gotta be me.””

LOL! Awww.

Ted D

Ion – “I assumed they were on the thin side (around 2 inches around the head). ”

FWIW I think the measure of girth is from the base, or near it. Mostly because, when you are going at it, the head isn’t what counts on the outside since its generally WAY up in there.

My porn viewing over the years as shown me that not all penises (peni?) are created equal, and not just length/girth. I’ve seen cone shapes, pear shapes, and strangely enough a few that were thinner at the base than the head! Really makes me wonder what the biological importance of penis shape is. Since there is variation, I’d assume there is a biological reason.

Cooper

@Ion

2″ girth? No way! That would be like a felt-pen!

I’m surprised I’m entering this discussion.

Did you know the girth of $0.25 coin is 3-inches?

Iggles

@ Cooper:

Did you know the girth of $0.25 coin is 3-inches?

Really??
I’m terrible at approximating measurements (whether it’s guessing how big a room is or how many feet away someone is standing, etc), so I looked for a quarter. As suspected, bf is way thicker than a quarter

Escoffier

Basic geometry people, decide if you are talking about diameter or circumference and then take if from there.

Cooper

@Iggles

Yeah, I’m usually pretty god with approximating measurements.

But, when I found out the average girth is somewhere around 4inches (some say between 4-5)
I thought “no fucking way, that must be like te circumference of pop can!!”

Well, after further inspection for perspective, a pop can is closer to 7inches in girth, and a $0.25 coin is surprisingly 3, and the Canadian $2 toonie is closer to 4.

Cooper

Escoffier,

Girth is circumference. A qaurter has a diameter of .955 inches.

Ion

Coop, Iggles

“But, when I found out the average girth is somewhere around 4inches (some say between 4-5)
I thought “no fucking way, that must be like te circumference of pop can!!””

Yeah wtf, I meant around 4 inches, for some reason I was WAY under-stimating size. Around 4 inches works for me. I did say I never measured, so that was just guessing on memory.

Also good to know you say pop Cooper! NYC people confuse me with their “soda” nonsense.

Esco

“Basic geometry people, decide if you are talking about diameter or circumference and then take if from there.”

lol…guilty as charged..

Cooper

“Also good to know you say pop Cooper! NYC people confuse me with their “soda” nonsense.”

Oh, I’ve experienced this down in the states. Here in Canada no ones says soda.

But curiously, along the west coast of the US is changes.
I can’t remember how I worked exactly, but I know WA, Oregon, and California all disagree. I went to summer camp in the states, as a kid.

If I recall, Californians and people from Washington agreed, and would always insist on Soda. Where as Oregon, says pop. (Or the other way around, SPS or PSP. But all I remember is it alternated with each west coast state)

Cooper

@Ion

Btw, ever since you didn’t have much preference against under-6ft guys, I’ve been looking at taller girls in a different light, even approach a few.

The height difference, which might not be much, would usually deter me. But I’ve begun having a more open mind about it.

Escoffier

No one in California says “soda.” We we either name the brand, or we say “soft drink,” or sometimes just “Coke” as a stand-in for any fizzy drink other than designer water.

Ion

“The height difference, which might not be much, would usually deter me. But I’ve begun having a more open mind about it.”

You never know who out there will be amazing, and worth the time. So I’m glad to hear it :-).

Ion

Ted D

“I’ve seen cone shapes, pear shapes, and strangely enough a few that were thinner at the base than the head!”

Balls aside, I’ve never noticed this variation really, but will look for it from now on. I’ve noticed some balls are tighter (nice), and some droop ( ). I really don’t see how there could be a biological need for size, other than perhaps to stimulate the prostrate with gay males. It’s probably just simple variation, like some dogs who have spots. I assume nearly all human vaginas are tight until they are molded by whatever penis is inside them.

I’m open to any theory though.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

This penis discussion is quite amusing. I don’t know how many of you recall this, but Paula Jones was credible because she gave a very specific description of Bill Clinton’s penis curving sharply to the left (from her vantage point) and marked with two wine stain birthmarks. Unfortunately, I am reminded of that every time anyone mentions the appearance of penises. Maybe now you will be too

Lokland

@Cooper

“I take it you don’t think I’m pissed though.”

No but I assume you are less than pleased.

@J

“I think a lot of us felt that way”

I used to think this but I’ve found most people tend to have had relatively simple lives.
Guys with a dry spell lasting years are an exception not the rule.
I’ve never thought about the equivalent.

@Ted D

“I went through this as well. But, I feel the need to point out, that YOUR WIFE may be totally trustworthy (and of course I hope she is) but many woman are not. THAT was the conclusion I had to come to, that although my wife may be a worthy woman, it doesn’t mean that any other woman in the world is.”

Yes this is a solid point.
Some people are bad.
The problem with the red pill is that for at least some people it makes everyone look bad.

I’m better than I was before and more able to provide my wife with her needs.
Theres a few painful parts that I’ll never enjoy.

Mostly its good.

JP

“I’ve told this story before, but in my daughter’s high school circle there were three girls whose fathers were in the 70-90 age range. None of them were first marriages, obvs. All three men were very wealthy. Ann, the girl with the 90 year old dad, had a gathering at her home before prom. Dad was in a wheelchair, and had a fetching nurse dressed in a traditional nurse’s uniform by his side. My daughter approached to introduce herself and thank him for his hospitality. He grabbed her by the arm, pulling her toward him and shouting, “Ann! Ann! Is that you?” It was like something out of Dickens.”

This paragraph is pure, unadulterated awesomeness.

Ramble

How old was the girl? What did his friends find objectionable?

She was in college and he was her professor. They made fun of him for dating such an immature girl (she turned out to be fairly mature).

Granted, at one point, he did turn it around and say something like, “Yeah, I am such an idiot. Why would I want to date a hot co-ed. God, such an idiot.”

At which point Chandler and Joey became jealous.

I did write about a study that showed exploitative men like their women hot and dumb. I would definitely shame a man for dating a bimbo. I’d also shame a woman for dating a mimbo.

In those episodes of Cougartown, they always made sure that the younger girls were as dumb as rocks, which is why he should OBVIOUSLY be dating a woman in her mid 30s or later.

At one point, one of his dates confessed that she lied about her favorite number. Previously she had said it was 3 to sound intelligent, but, in reality, it is 6. There is no way that they were going to portray some 24 year old gf as nice, caring and smart, as well as having the looks, verve and body of a 24 year old.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

At one point, one of his dates confessed that she lied about her favorite number. Previously she had said it was 3 to sound intelligent, but, in reality, it is 6.

That is hilarious! Is that a reality show or scripted? I don’t think any comedy writer could do better.

I hear you re making the young women look dumb – I guess it’s because the show is “Cougartown?” Cougars rule?

BTW, there is a cultural reference for Cougarism going way back – it is very hypogamous. The woman gets young flesh, but he’s always the mailman, pool boy, pizza delivery guy, etc. On SATC Samantha had sex with the UPS guy once.

Ramble

I did not know that about houses getting more female. That sounds like more masculine behavior by women and feminine behavior from men! Tell her you’re not going to tolerate six lacy pillows on the bed! (That’s what my husband did.)

I don’t think it works like that. I don’t think too many of those examples have pink, and lace and frills everywhere. I think that what has happened to the home is similar to what has happened to weddings.

While weddings may have been more anticipated by, and special to, girls in years past, it was only after the Sexual/Cultural/Feminist revolution that we started to see Wedding Bitches (h/t Liz Lemon).

The girls REALLY cared about it, so they got what they wanted (i.e. “this is MY special day”). Well, you saw the same thing with how homes are decorated. The girls tend to care more, so, soon enough, the situation goes full-tilt, and, before he realizes it, he is spending all of his time in the garage. I mean, you want to make her happy, right?

Once the guys realized that they are spending all of their time in the garage, and their wives see this as well, she gives him a room: Man Cave.

Previously, like with the weddings, things followed previously defined cultural standards. The weddings, and (decorated) homes, tended to be neither masculine or feminine. Now, that has changed.

Passer_By

@ramble
“Susan, I get what you are trying to say here, but I think that you are a little off. The interior decoration of homes has become much more feminine over the years. So much so that even NPR felt the need to report on how more and more men prefer to spend time in their garages and shacks because they have been “chased” out of their homes.”

While I give my wife a fair amount lattitude on decor, her tastes tend not to be girly, so that’s fine. As to usage, our main living space (great room) is a shrine to my most-bitchen home entertainment system, on which I watch sports mostly at will (subject sometimes to my kids’ video gaming) and blast loud music that shakes the neighborhood. Though I haven’t been doing as much of the latter lately.

Ramble

It’s the best cure for insomnia.

That is why I asked. If she is going all night, with orgasms, that means that she is not falling asleep after she climaxes.

J

In real life I don’t think I sound shrill, but I have a VERY loud voice

Ted, I really don’t see you as shrill. I was referring to the general tone of some of some of these “cautionary” discussions.

I have never been with a girl that did not pass out after a nighttime orgasm.

DH considers it a mark of his success if he puts me to sleep with a smile on my face.

My “office” is the living room.

My husband stole my home office turned it into a recording studio.

He grabbed her by the arm, pulling her toward him and shouting, “Ann! Ann! Is that you?” It was like something out of Dickens.

Wow. Poor Ann! It was hard enough for my kids to see their grandparents fall apart. What’s it like when it’s a parent?

J

I used to think this but I’ve found most people tend to have had relatively simple lives.

I dunno. IME, simplepeople have simple lives; smart people have complications.

Guys with a dry spell lasting years are an exception not the rule. I’ve never thought about the equivalent.

Fat, ugly and weird girls have long dry spells, but even pretty girls can have them. I think for women it’s not a question of not being able to get sex, but not having a relationship. The guys who say that nearly any woman can walk into a bar and get laid are right. The problem is that most women don’t want that. It’s like having a surfeit of shit or swimming in salt water. Yeah, there’s a lot of it, but who wants it? A lot of “Where are all the good men?” comes from there. It looks like women are swimming in attention, but it’s not the attention they want.

Cooper

“This penis discussion is quite amusing.”

Shall we now discuss the variations of vaginas?

Cooper

/s, btw.

JP

@J:

“Wow. Poor Ann! It was hard enough for my kids to see their grandparents fall apart. What’s it like when it’s a parent?”

It’s horrible.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

I think a lot of us felt that way. I was fairly sure I’d never marry, that no one would ever love me, that I was unworthy, that men who seemed attracted only wanted a piece of ass, that maybe I was just a butterface. Sometimes, all you can do is live through it. It gets better for most people.

I was convinced till my early 20’s that I had a whore’s face given the high amount of married men that propositioned all sorts of arrangements towards me. I also though I was never going to get married because for me marriage was sacred so no chance in hell I will say yes. Things do get better if you are open to cast away what is making you bitter in my case I just needed to get rid of an entire country! Piece of cake :p

I’d also shame a woman for dating a mimbo.

I though the term was Himbo, my pop culture is failing?

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Anacaona

I was convinced till my early 20′s that I had a whore’s face given the high amount of married men that propositioned all sorts of arrangements towards me.

That is terrible, I’m sorry you felt that way. I think you have a loving mother’s face…

I though the term was Himbo, my pop culture is failing

Mimbo is a Seinfeld reference – the male bimbo.

J

Ana: I was convinced till my early 20′s that I had a whore’s face given the high amount of married men that propositioned all sorts of arrangements towards me.

SW: That is terrible, I’m sorry you felt that way. I think you have a loving mother’s face…

I agree that Ana is beautiful, but I fully understand what she felt. I think if a woman doesn’t have that blond, blue-eyed, innocent Sandra Dee look, some men will find her whorish looking. I had the same experience.

HanSolo

@J

I love whorish-looking women! Especially when they’re not whores.

Passer_By

@cooper

“Shall we now discuss the variations of vaginas?”

Umm, we were. that’s what led to the weenie talk.

@ana

Yeah, baby. Madonna in the streets, whore between the sheets. You got it goin’ on!

@susan

“He grabbed her by the arm, pulling her toward him and shouting, “Ann! Ann! Is that you?” ”

Yeah, I bet that didn’t freak her out at all. That’s downright creepy.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@Passer By

Yeah, I bet that didn’t freak her out at all. That’s downright creepy.

LOL, you should have seen the look of sheer panic on her face. It would have been perfect if she’d fallen and ripped her prom dress, but as it was there was just a brief uncomfortable moment before she extricated herself.

deti

“I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the psychic energy running the androsphere is frustration over not having been selected to form part of this fabled carousel.”

Oh, I think that’s some of it, but doesn’t quite get to the root of it. The flaw in MCB’s assumption is that everyone in the androsphere wants to be a PUA, which is nowhere near the truth. As has been said here and many other places, most men simply want to (1) improve themselves physically, mentally and monetarily; and (2) find one woman they can be with long term and learn to manage that relationship wisely.

The fear oft expressed here is that any man learning game wants to transform himself into a Roissy or a Roosh; and that our countrysides will be infested with roaming hordes of PUAs deflowering and ruining women from here to Juneau. This is never, ever going to happen; and even if men wanted that most couldn’t pull it off anyway. Only a tiny number of men can rack up Ns like college town bar sluts.

The root of the problem and what is “driving most of the psychic energy running” the manosphere is the fact that we’ve been lied to all our lives about what men are, what women find attractive, and what is really important to us and the people in our lives, and we’re trying to get to the bottom of it.

Lokland

@J

“I think if a woman doesn’t have that blond, blue-eyed, innocent Sandra Dee look, some men will find her whorish looking. I had the same experience.”

?
?

My experience has been the polar opposite.
Dumb blond in a tight skirt is the whore.
Brunette in the library is a girlfriend.

I went to school where something like 70% of the women were blondes.
They were definitely not favoured for relationships except by a few guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

Deti, check out Badger’s latest post. The abundance mentality is what’s so desirable, the abundance itself is only as interesting as it is a sign of the mentality.

As for balls, they’re all tight and saggy, it’s a temperature thing. Learn your basic biology, ladies.

Iggles

As for balls, they’re all tight and saggy, it’s a temperature thing. Learn your basic biology, ladies.

This comes off as rather condescending..

I was previously aware of this fact because I discussed it with my bf before and he explained why it happens, but I can’t fault others for not knowing. Women do not have balls so the answer to this inquiry isn’t inherently obvious to us.

I’m sure there are many aspects of the female body that you became aware of through either personal experience or discovering an article about it. Topics that weren’t covered in health class (so much is left out).

J

I love whorish-looking women! Especially when they’re not whores.

The thing is, I was always a rather conservative dresser and wore little make-up. I just think a Mediterreanean look says, “spicy” to some men.

My experience has been the polar opposite. Dumb blond in a tight skirt is the whore. Brunette in the library is a girlfriend.

I can see that as well. I was thinking though of a Grace Kelly vs. Sophia Loren sort of thing. Grace, though a champion rider of the Hollywood carousel, was the cool and lady-like one. Sophia was perceived as hot and earthy.

http://www.4stargazer.wordpress.com Anacaona

That is terrible, I’m sorry you felt that way. I think you have a loving mother’s face…

and…
I agree that Ana is beautiful, but I fully understand what she felt. I think if a woman doesn’t have that blond, blue-eyed, innocent Sandra Dee look, some men will find her whorish looking. I had the same experience.

Thank you for the kind words. I still feel I did something wrong when I get hit on like “Did I wore too much make up?, Are this pants too thigh?” Is amazing what one carries for a long time even if logically speaking I know is not the case…

Yeah, baby. Madonna in the streets, whore between the sheets. You got it goin’ on!

Now I will have to kill you, only hubby knows for sure if that is the case and that is how I like it

HanSolo

@J

Often it’s not the clothes but something about the person that is sensual and is a real turn on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

A bit, Ion.

Not knowing that the scrotum’s function is to regulate the temperature of the testes, which is critical to the production of viable sperm, via the raising or lowering closer/farther from the body… is like a man not knowing what “the little man in the boat” does, what a Fallopian tube is, or how eggs implant into the uterus. It is anatomical illiteracy, and you’d rightly think a man was an idiot for not knowing all three.

Now, if you didn’t understand how painful a kick in the nuts was, I can buy that. But the above are basic anatomical facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7XzcGnUCI0 OffTheCuff

(BTW, your original message implied that you didn’t know, and thought all “saggy” balls are gross. That’s like a man saying your period is revolting, rather than realizing it is normal and has a purpose.)

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

(BTW, your original message implied that you didn’t know, and thought all “saggy” balls are gross. That’s like a man saying your period is revolting, rather than realizing it is normal and has a purpose.)

Isn’t there some variation among men? IOW, if you put all men in a room that is heated to 72, are all their sacks at the same degree of tightness/looseness? I don’t think so. I’ve seen men who appeared to hang way, way down, and others who were generally tucked up tight, over a variety of temperatures.

Just1Z

the little man in the boat…

took me a while to twig that one. it was new to me, but cool!

thanks for the edumacation

J

I still feel I did something wrong when I get hit on like “Did I wore too much make up?, Are this pants too thigh?” Is amazing what one carries for a long time even if logically speaking I know is not the case…

I doubt it. I think what Han said above is true. If men are attracted, they’ll pursue (for the most part).

szopen

@J

BTW, is szopen pronounced like Chopin?

I don’t know how do you pronounce chopin, but more or less, yes. Not because of my musical talents, but beacuse of my hair when I was younger.

Iggles

@ SW:

I’ve seen men who appeared to hang way, way down, and others who were generally tucked up tight, over a variety of temperatures.

I would think so, but I’m no expert! I’m interested in hearing the guys weigh in.

J

Thought so, thanks.

In English, it’s like show-pan.

INTJ

@ Susan

I’ve seen men who appeared to hang way, way down, and others who were generally tucked up tight, over a variety of temperatures.

Well, you’d be the expert here. I would guess most men have only paid much attention to their own balls, so we can’t really judge variations between men.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

@INTJ

Well, you’d be the expert here. I would guess most men have only paid much attention to their own balls, so we can’t really judge variations between men.

I believe you’ve said you don’t watch much porn, but I would imagine that most men have witnessed the rear view of plowing with testicles on full view thousands of times. My sample size is a just speck of sand in that desert…

Ted D

HanSolo – “Often it’s not the clothes but something about the person that is sensual and is a real turn on.”

When I first met my wife she was wearing scrubs. For those not familiar, scrubs simply do nothing at all to show off a woman’s figure. I was instantly “interested” when I saw her walking in. I figured if she tripped my trigger that strongly in the equivilant of a potato sack, it could ONLY be better in a pair of jeans.

I never believed that anyone could trigger that strong of reaction by simply being present. But to this day I occasionally look at her coming into the room or perhaps far down an isle at the store and react the same way. It truly isn’t a conscious thing, and every time it happens it catches me off guard. I highly promote people to find someone that causes such a reaction and lock it down. I’ll even add this: the fact that I react so strongly to my wife gives me massive motivation to MAP my ass off. Every improvement I make increases her similar reaction to me.

Postive feedback loop? Don’t know or care because it works.

Ted D

Re: balls – my natural body temp runs high, so more often than not I have a fair share of “hang” going on. That being said, if I get cold enough it looks very much like I’ve got a hairy walnut under my jolly rancher.

JP

@TedD:

“When I first met my wife she was wearing scrubs. For those not familiar, scrubs simply do nothing at all to show off a woman’s figure. I was instantly “interested” when I saw her walking in. ”

Now, multiply this times ten, add romantic OCD, and you’ve got limerence.

Just1Z

“jolly rancher”?

again with the new lingo?

“little man in a boat” yesterday had me scratching my nut for a few minutes, but Jolly Rancher?

Ion

@ OTC

“(BTW, your original message implied that you didn’t know, and thought all “saggy” balls are gross. That’s like a man saying your period is revolting, rather than realizing it is normal and has a purpose.)”

Saggy breasts also have a perfectly normal biological function, doesn’t mean they are aesthetically pleasing.

I’ve only really seen floppy low hung balls in porn, balls that look wrinkled, discolored balls etc., There is definitely SOME variation in size and look.

JP

“Saggy breasts also have a perfectly normal biological function, doesn’t mean they are aesthetically pleasing.

I’ve only really seen floppy low hung balls in porn, balls that look wrinkled, discolored balls etc., There is definitely SOME variation in size and look.”

Unsubscribe.

Ion

INTJ “I would guess most men have only paid much attention to their own balls, so we can’t really judge variations between men.”

and Ted D “That being said, if I get cold enough it looks very much like I’ve got a hairy walnut under my jolly rancher.”

Pics or it didn’t happen!

@ JP “Unsubscribe.”

No way. Amateur porn is way better than sex ed class ever was.

Sassy6519

That being said, if I get cold enough it looks very much like I’ve got a hairy walnut under my jolly rancher.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

szopen

@J

In English, it’s like show-pan.

I won’t show.

Ted D

ION – ROFL! I don’t think anyone wants to see that, and I’m sure Susan would rather not have it on her blog.

Sassy – Sorry. If it makes you feel better, it only happens when I’m really cold. Needless to say we keep the bedroom rather warm, and I do my best not to have a need to “perform” right after getting out of the pool.

Ted D

JP – “Now, multiply this times ten, add romantic OCD, and you’ve got limerence.”

Well in that case I”m thankful that I don’t feel limerence to this extent. Basically as strongly as my wife turns me on, it never got much worse for me in the early part of the relationship. I found myself thinking about her a lot, but could easily push it aside to get stuff done. (most of the time) I never got very OCD about her, but I don’t get OCD about much. (thankfully, because if I DO fixate on something, it is intense and hard to ignore.)

That being said, I hated those early days for the way they made me feel. Off center, doubtful of my intuition, butterflies in the stomach. I really dislike the part of relationships most people love: the early stages of giddy happiness. I MUCH prefer the settled contentment I have now. But, that is also part of my downfall. I very easily become complacent, so I’m putting effort into keeping my head in the “game”, so to speak, by not allowing myself to become THAT comfortable.

JP

Porn movies = depravity = evil.

Unsubscribe!

I’m trying to recall whether I watched a porn video more than once when I was in college, and that was when I was with a bunch of college friends.

Ted D

“Porn movies = depravity = evil.”

I’ll add that to the list of reasons I’m going to hell.

Man I REALLY hope God has a great sense of humor…

JP

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/south-koreas-porn-fight-shoveling-blizzard-1C7511844

mr. wavevector

@ Susan #269,

Although I return to this thread long after it’s gone cold, I’d like to respond to your long comment (which I appreciate).

Third, I want to clarify that in describing myself as “strong and independent” I was not referring to being financially independent, obviously. Rather, I mean that I am capable of thinking and acting for myself.

I certainly appreciate why you feel the need to emphasize your independence in this way. Many uncomplimentary stereotypes of SAHMs have been promulgated in our culture, often by the career-first wing of feminists. No-one wants to be thought of as a Stepford Wife!

That said, I still find the refrain of “strong and independent woman” a bit off-putting. Let me try to explain why.

First, I think our culture overvalues autonomy. None of us is very strong. We all have many weaknesses and failings. And we aren’t very independent either. We are an intensely social species. We depend on each other for all that we have. Less autonomy and more community would do us good.

Second, a couple in a healthy committed relationship are deeply dependent on each other. One “we” is stronger than two “me’s”. One member of a couple advertising their independence strikes me as somewhat bad form.

Third, how would women feel if their husbands went around trumpeting their independence? I’m quite sure my wife would be upset if I did so. She might infer that I wasn’t fully engaged in the relationship.

You could argue correctly that our culture does not have a meme of husband as passive, obedient helpmeet, so the issue of independence is not symmetrical. But perhaps we should, as women often have greater situational power in a relationship.

I’m sorry to have tooted my own horn here, but I hope that I have provided one clear illustration of how an egalitarian marriage can work and thrive, with both parties deriving benefits and feeling very fortunate.

I agree with the quality of your marriage, and it sounds not unlike my own. But I find your description of it as “egalitarian” a bit curious. That’s what I would call a complementarian relationship, with each party playing different but valuable roles, according to their tastes and abilities.

Perhaps you mean that you and your husband are equal in worth, respect, and commitment to the relationship? I once had a feminist friend say to my wife and me that “you two seem very equal”, even though our roles would feel at home in a 1950’s TV show. I think it is these other dimensions of equality that she was responding to.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com Susan Walsh

Mr. Wavevector,

Thanks for circling back. I was afraid I had put you off for good. I think the points you make re “strong and independent” are valid – excellent in fact. I will keep that in mind when thinking of using those words to describe myself. IIRC, I said something in my long comment about married people taking care of each other – your point about deep mutual dependence is especially compelling.

But I find your description of it as “egalitarian” a bit curious. That’s what I would call a complementarian relationship, with each party playing different but valuable roles, according to their tastes and abilities.

I also find this valid, well said. I guess I’m a bit twitchy about the issue of equity, in case you didn’t notice. Part of that comes from my being widely derided and mocked online for having an “egalitarian” marriage. One man said, “Only two kids and not even home schooled!” I am guilty of having lumped you in with some rather unpleasant folks, which was not fair. Apologies.

mr. wavevector

>I was afraid I had put you off for good.

Not at all. But as much as like your blog, sometimes life keeps me away from my internet habit!

nicole

adoroooo

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