One of the most troubling effects of applied feminist theology has been the demonization of sex differences. Naturally, this denial of biological reality didn’t make sex differences disappear, it just made them off limits for discussion. That’s ironic, because some of the most pronounced differences between men and women may be seen in the way they engage in discussion. It’s very clear here at HUS that men and women communicate very differently.
Recently I reread one of my favorite books about cross-sex communication, and despite the fact that it was written in the early 90s, I haven’t found anything that tops it. Even after four years of blogging about dating and relationships, I find John Gray’s Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus enlightening.
I’m not sure if there ever was a time when the sexes understood one another better, but most of the questions I get from female readers are an attempt to figure out what’s going on in a guy’s mind.
The best advice about men usually comes from men, but I’m happy to pass it along when it’s really good. John Gray is really good. Some of the insights seem a bit dated for today’s culture – that is, the nature of men and women has not really changed in twenty years, but some of our behaviors have. You may need to adjust here and there, but most of this is gold.
When men feel good about themselves, they are most motivated to please a woman.
The more a man’s life is in order, the more he hungers for a woman to share it with.
When a man does something to make a woman feel special, he becomes more attracted to her.
Men are attracted to women who clearly can be pleased. A man does not want to hear a woman dwell on negative feelings or problems. Women should initially share their most positive, autonomous side.
Not to be needed is a slow death for a man. He needs to feel appreciated, trusted and accepted.
Men are motivated and empowered when they feel needed. Given the opportunity to prove his potential, a man expresses his best self. Only when he feels he cannot succeed does he regress back to his old selfish ways.
But: Too much intimacy, too quickly, can cause women to become needy and men to pull away.
When a man is attracted, he gets excited because he anticipates that he can make her happy and that makes him feel really good; it brings the best of him out. The anticipation of more is very important to keep him interested. If he feels completely satisfied, then there is no distance for him to continue traveling to pursue her. Distance not only makes the heart grow fonder but gives the man the opportunity to pursue. Men always need the opportunity for more.
When women “overgive” it compromises their position, and it prevents the excitement of anticipation and romance from building.
While a man tends to question whether he wants to pursue a relationship, the woman tends to question where the relationship is going.
This may make her insecure and she will begin to pursue him. When a man stops pursuing, a woman’s task is to resist the enormous urge to find out what has happened or to do something about it. In this instance, she should stay open to his future advances, but fill her life up with friends.
The male intimacy cycle is like a rubber band. It involves getting close, pulling away, and then getting close again.
A man pulls away to fulfill his need for independence or autonomy. When he has fully separated, suddenly he will feel his need for love and intimacy again. A man automatically alternates between needing intimacy and autonomy.
When a man springs back, he picks up the relationship at whatever degree of intimacy it was when he stretched away. He doesn’t feel any need for a period of getting reacquainted again.
If a man does not have the opportunity to pull away, he never gets a chance to feel his strong desire to be close. If women insist on continuous intimacy then he will almost always be trying to escape and distance himself. He will never get a chance to feel his own passionate longing for love.
When a woman chases a man or punishes him for withdrawing, he feels incapable of fulfilling her and gives up. His fear of her anger or rejection might cause him to give up entirely.
Women need:
- caring
- understanding
- respect
- devotion
- validation
- reassurance
Men need:
- trust
- acceptance
- appreciation
- admiration
- approval
- encouragement
A man’s interest should be active.
If a man detects that a woman’s mission is to please him, he will also focus on how she can please him. If she wants to pursue him, he will happily sit back and passively receive what she wants to give. This will not make her happy. When he senses that she is unhappy, she becomes less interesting to him and the attraction lessens. A woman who is eager to please a man will find that he is pleased, but not necessarily interested.
Active interest motivates the man to action to achieve a goal, thrives on achievement and comes from a place of desire and confidence. The more risks he takes, the more invested he becomes.
The way a woman makes him feel good, (and more interested) is by creating opportunities for him to succeed in truly fulfilling her needs. Without her to please, he is a man out of work. He needs a job, needs the opportunity to succeed in a relationship with a woman. This is an enormous boost to his fulfillment in life.
A female’s interest should be receptive.
Receptive interest is motivated to create opportunities to receive, thrives in response to support, and comes from a place of preference and worthiness. A woman’s receptive interest in a man generates his active interest in her. When she reacts to his advances, he feels more connected to her. Then he is automatically more interested and motivated to get to know her.
A man gets turned on when a woman’s radiance makes him feel more like a man.
Feminine radiance embodies the three characteristics of femininity:
1. Self-assurance: An air of grace and trust, self-respect.
2. Receptivity: The ability to receive what is given and not resent getting less; ability to benefit or find good in every situation.
3. Responsiveness: A man loves a woman with a smile. He loves to feel that he can make a difference, that he can make her happy.
The wisdom of waiting to be sexually intimate is that a man’s desire has a chance to grow into the higher levels of expression.
His physical desire expands into the emotional desire to please the woman.
Having an exclusive relationship provides the foundation for lasting intimacy. A woman creates intimacy by honestly sharing more of who she is, and a man experiences increased intimacy by successfully supporting and nurturing more of who she is. As she discloses herself more, he can gradually get to know her. If he continues to be supportive as he gets to know her better, then the love he feels in his heart has a chance to grow.
When a woman becomes sexual before she is ready, she has stopped being receptive and becomes accommodating. She compromises her position. When she gives more in the relationship, she begins to expect more from the man, which makes her very unattractive. Female expectations are a turnoff for men.
The thing that surprises me most, though it makes a lot of sense, is the value to a man of pursuing and winning a woman. And the value to a woman of giving him the opportunity to do that.
We can either return to a way of relating that respects sex differences, or we can continue to ignore sex roles, asking women to be aggressors and men to be passive recipients. While I think that it’s important and helpful for women to offer encouragement and show interest to men they find attractive, both sexes will realize the greatest benefit if women do this in response to male initiative.
{ 1542 comments… read them below or add one }
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Yup. Just reading a few of Vox’s more notorious posts is sufficient to get a read on his character.
LOL. An interesting man, with an interesting background as well.
@J
“This prompted me to google him. If you start with the Wiki article on him and work back from the sources it quotes a very interesting character emerges.”
Elaboration please.
@deti
“what advantage would I have in waiting until marriage? Don’t you think guys would practically run away from me?”
The advantage is for women, not men. Moreover, good quality guys will not run. Low quality guys will run.”
===
deti, I have had professed Christian guys dump me over this. Maybe SayWhaat can chime in, but I would add something in that she needs to be okay with getting a lot of dumping and rejection. And not take it personally.
Outside of a religious community, this is not true. Even my boyfriend had doubts about me due to my lack of experience.
“These are serious problems, I wouldn’t blame anyone for balking at them.”
Of course. I’m talking about minor problems.
“You just said these men are unattractive, what do they expect? If they don’t like what’s on offer, they’re certainly not obligated to marry. They’re making a choice. Why the need to complain about it?”
Not complaining. I’m explaining why a lot of men are asking the valid rhetorical question “why improve myself when there’s nothing in it for me?”
@PB
“Maybe your’s. Antibiotics cleared mine up pretty quickly.”
Thank you I needed to laugh.
@SW
ha ha, *jinx*! I mentioned you and there you were!
Even in religious communities, it’s still going to be a dealbreaker. Deti, were you a Christian even in college?
@Susan
“Has an eye for the ladies? Not OK.”
Why?
I try not to look and fail miserably whenever she is not in my presence.
If this was a deal breaker nobody would be in relationships.
“Deti, were you a Christian even in college?”
claimed to be but didn’t act like it.
“Has an eye for the ladies? Not OK.”
Wait a minute. So a married man can’t appreciate a pretty woman who isn’t his wife? Can’t notice them?
I’m married. I’m not dead.
Jackie:
Time for you to share. Why are you waiting for marriage to have sex?
““Deti, were you a Christian even in college?”
claimed to be but didn’t act like it.
I hung out with the evangelical Christians who really wanted to baptize me.
And on my 21st birthday, I was with them on a misson/service trip.
Basically because my girlfriend was active with them.
Yay.
@JP
“And on my 21st birthday, I was with them on a misson/service trip.
Basically because my girlfriend was active with them.”
If it makes you feel better, I share your pain.
I wound up in some god forsaken third world country trying to get laid.
Note: I did get laid. Not by the women I was travelling to god forsaken third world countries. Funny how that works.
Awwww, deti, why’d you have to go and get snarky after I told everyone what a delightful guy you are?
Ted is very welcome here provided his aim is not to de-HUS my readers. I really don’t think that’s asking too much. And I’m not asking anything I don’t expect of myself. I would never regularly go to someone else’s blog with the goal of discrediting them. That’s basically the definition of trolling, though I do not think of Ted that way.
How? It’s a goal I can endorse, but I have no earthly idea how to get that ball rolling.
“Note: I did get laid. Not by the women I was travelling to god forsaken third world countries. Funny how that works.”
I certainly didn’t want to get laid by my girlfriend.
What is the risk of cohabitation, in your view? We did not get engaged until we’d lived together for six months, and then we got married a full year later. I don’t believe either of us ever felt exposed to risk.
LOL, I remember my boss was alarmed that we had a joint checking account. But we put all our resources in one combined pot from the minute we started dating. He had the better deal for 7 years. I happily paid his student loans for a while. We also bought furniture together to furnish our apartment. We were pretty strapped for cash, but NY is actually a great city to be in when you’re broke, contrary to public opinion.
LOL, I think deti may have been the originator of HUSsies.
@JP
“I certainly didn’t want to get laid by my girlfriend.”
I’m gonna second what Susan said.
You’d be hella interesting to talk to at a cocktail party.
@deti (1061)
Hi again deti,
For me, it’s a question of “know thyself.”
I know that once I cross that line I will be changed. Not in some huge, immediately noticeable difference. But it will be turning on a switch — one of intense, immense love and devotion– that cannot be turned off. Maybe for some people it can be fun, like a toy. I just know that I am not made like that.
Simply put: I don’t think I am strong enough to break the bond it will create.
To be connected at that level and then rupture the bond I think would be nearly impossible for me to recover. Something inside me would either get brittle or have to break. I know people here probably think I’m a weirdo, impossibly naive or living in rose-colored glasses. But I like that part of me and don’t want it gone.
So, in all likelihood, I would do whatever possible to continue the relationship. To have that happen with a guy who doesn’t feel the same or just sees me as someone he doesn’t care about beyond getting his, would be, to me, hell.
I can take being dumped, but I don’t think I could take that. Does this answer your question?
@Lokland:
“I’m gonna second what Susan said.
You’d be hella interesting to talk to at a cocktail party.”
She was an excellent best friend, however I was distinctly not attracted to her.
As a general rule, I didn’t know what I was doing.
From no premarital sex? I think that would qualify a tiny fraction of the male population as “good.” Honestly, I have never met a man who was willing to wait – in my whole life. Granted, I have not been in religious communities, but they don’t rack up the anal sex numbers for nuthin.
I had two sorority sisters who waited and were divorced within a year because there was no marital sex. One guy couldn’t bring himself to “violate” his wife, and the other had chronic ED, even at 24. I would not even dream of marrying or expecting my kids to marry someone they hadn’t taken for a test drive, at the very least. I think sexual compatibility is a key predictor of marital happiness.
@Jackie
I don’t think you’re a weirdo. It’s good you know yourself and are true to that, in spite of the narrowing of the pool of men that causes for you.
Though likely a very small minority, there will be guys, virgins or not, that value love over sex and will wait until marriage for sex. There was a girl in my post-virgin period that I was willing to wait for because it was important to her.
In ancestral times, it is believed humans were serially monogamous in 4-7 years periods. Pair-bonding presumably occurred in each relationship. I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.” Pair-bonding = falling in love, and we know that people can do that multiple times, regardless of whether they are having sex.
Obviously, that’s a non-starter, so how practical is the suggestion that we remove all the incentives for single motherhood as a solution to our SMP woes?
” I think sexual compatibility is a key predictor of marital happiness.”
I don’t even know what this means.
And I’m not being snarky.
I certainly understand the problem with the violator and Mr. ED, but beyond that, what’s to compatibalize?
What on God’s Green Earth is “sexual compatibility”.
Haha, I love this. Very honest and quite reasonable!
@Susan:
“I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.” Pair-bonding = falling in love, and we know that people can do that multiple times, regardless of whether they are having sex.”
I think that the concern is the dis-bonding that can occur, and that therefore, the assumption is that virgins are more tightly bound.
@HanSolo
That was really good to hear; thank you for sharing, Captain S.
PS: It was Princess Leia wasn’t it? (C’mon, we know it was!)
@JP
“What on God’s Green Earth is “sexual compatibility”.”
Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either.
Actually, I think it’s more about reasonably matching sex drives, with the caveat that, on average, hers is likely to be little lower if she’s not named Sassy.
I suppose if one person has some sort of desire for a particular thing, you’re going to want the other to be at least accomodating. I would hate to get married and find out my wife had a schiza fetish or golden showers fetish and couldn’t really get turned on without it.
@deti
PS: I should add, too, that it’s just a personal choice. I know that I’m an outlier!
I don’t expect people to conform to my way. In fact, I think people should make their own decision *from a healthy, balanced place*.
@susan
“One guy couldn’t bring himself to “violate” his wife, and the other had chronic ED, even at 24.”
Seems to me that those marriages could have been saved by Big Jim Slade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ96dy93mP0
I guess I don’t really see it that way. To me, my BF has already proved he’s committed to me. We’ve discussed marriage (“when” not “if”), we moved in together (perish the thought!) and he stuck with me through all the challenges of the last few years, including my diagnosis with a mental illness. Why would I hold off on sex, after all that? Because I need more commitment?
Doubt it. This is the 21st century, not the 1800s. Very few guys would be willing to wait, and just because they wouldn’t doesn’t necessarily make them “bad quality.”
Right but that’s also not an issue if you’ve had sex with one person outside of marriage.
If I marry my BF, this doesn’t really apply.
Already the case. In the only difference is we didn’t wait for the ceremony and the signed papers.
I don’t see how that can’t be shown in other ways.
By “an eye for the ladies” I mean looking at other women in her presence, flirting, and perhaps even cheating. She should not be exposed to your desire for variety nor reminded of it. It’s humiliating for a woman.
It boils down to being with someone you have mind-blowing sex with. People have a wide variety of preferences in the sack. The most common example is oral – most men are eager to find a woman that not only is willing, she loves it. And most women want a partner who enjoys going downtown. Can you imagine your wedding night and having your bride say “ew?” I’m sure it’s happened many, many times, but there is no reason it has to.
Do Asian women have short canals? I didn’t know that.
As for hitting the backstop, good lord, that is agony. Don’t know what it feels like for the guy. That’s why big peens are usually most desirable when your looking at them, not “accommodating” them.
Lol no one ran me off. I had an unusually busy work day, and we were out Christmas shopping.
Besides, the conversation is going rather well I think, and it seems I tend to rile things up when I post.
FWIW I think Escoffier and Deti are pretty much right on the money in terms of what it will take to fix the mess we’ve made of our country. To be honest I’m not sure it CAN be fixed even if we somehow managed to get a majority to want it. Too many people with too much invested in a broken society willing to sell everyone out for the almighty dollar, and most of them in positions of power no less.
@Susan:
“It boils down to being with someone you have mind-blowing sex with.”
As opposed to basic, or standard, sex.
Weeelll, Asian men and women tend to be built more “petite”. Smaller everything.
Doesn’t mean it can’t work, though. BF uses Magnum XLs and for the most part we get on fine. Find a position that works and go to town, lol.
@susan, saywhaat
I was referring more to east asians (what we used to call orientals in a more sane time). In my experience, they just can’t fully accomodate a slightly longer than average appendage. You can do it, just not aggressively. Too bad, because they are quite passionate.
Based on data gathered in the field, the most accommodating are black women followed closely by ashkenazi jews. Next would be non-jewish white women, then middle eastern women (backstops coming into play, now). After that, east asian. No specific experience with South Asian, but I’m guessing they are about the same as middle eastern. I’ll have to punt on hispanics, but that term can mean so many mixes, there is probably no real answer.
Hey, now you can say this is an HBD blog, Susan!
This business about the risk of American losing our overseas empire would be more convincing if we actually had an overseas empire.
@Escoffier:
The U.S. is the hegemonic Great Power since we essentially took over from the British.
Remember that the U.S. is somehow magically able to consumem 24% of the world’s energy while having a military presence basically everyhwere.
This has been happening in the West (meaning the Great Power/Hegemon cycle) since Henry the Navigator.
The U.S. was involved in the colonial wars too. That’s how it got Cuba and the Phillipines.
I’m not sold on the idea of Peak Cheap Energy in any event. I haven’t seen enough data. I’m more of a “let’s not spew toxic chemicals everyhwere” kind of person.
ooh, Cuba and the Phillipines, quite an empire! And we don’t have either any more. So, there’s always Puerto Rico and Guam.
This is way OT, I don’t want to annoy Susan, but you should review the essential differences between a guarantor power and an actual empire, they are as the saying goes non-trivial.
The only thing that I really agree with him about is that China’s rising, really wants it’s sea lanes, and that the U.S. is going into relative decline as it’s hegemonic position is being delegitimized right on schedule, so to speak.
The demographics and fertility rates are kind of strange at this point; I’m not sure how that will impact things.
I’ll see what happens in the next 10 years since this is like watching plate techtonics move.
And, yes I know that the U.S. is not an empire. However, it’s benefited from the wealth/energy flows given it’s victory in WWII, which is now passing into true history.
its, not it’s.
@Passer By
You rogue! With a big penis. j;alkdfja;lksdfja;slkjdfas;kj
You know that stat that 80% of women can’t come from penetration alone? I read that the 20% is almost all small women – shorter distance between vagina and clit.
I’ve had some not-small women orgasm vaginally…. In fact the g-spot has produced some of their most memorable orgasms. Clits are good too. lol
@ SayWhaat
Yeah this is true. I’ll just have to find a tighter receptacle to stick it in.
@susan
“You rogue!”
Eh. I’m no zach. But living in the LA area, and in West LA in my second single ’30s, there were various nationalities.
“With a big penis.”
Hey, I said “slightly”! Don’t go signing me up for any porn movies.
” j;alkdfja;lksdfja;slkjdfas;kj”
I . . ., uhh . .. don’t know what that means, but I think I like it!
“You know that stat that 80% of women can’t come from penetration alone? I read that the 20% is almost all small women – shorter distance between vagina and clit.”
Maybe within a given nationality. But I think black women and, surprisingly, Ashkenazi Jewish women tend to be the most orgasmic in general, so I’m not sure that’s true on the whole. Of course, this is based on my own limited data sample.
Yes, if you can afford the very expensive rents, and don’t mind that you will not be visiting any friends (or family) that happen to live in the burbs.
Janet: Susan, we are having a party Friday night and I would love if you could make it.
Susan: Is there a train station nearby?
Janet: Well, sure, uh, it is about 8 minutes away from our home.
Susan: Well, could you leave the party and come pick me up? And, then, drive me back later that night, but not too late since the trains will stop running.
Janet: Uh, yeah, I guess.
@JP 1038
Wow. I read the link. Reminded me of Canticle for Liebowitz, sort of. I agree that the Archdruid blogger makes a more cogent argument than Vox does. I really hadn’t thought much about the possibility that that the Mexicans might still be riled up over the Mexican-American War and don’t know enough about Mexico to comment. As to the idea that there is some sort of Hispanic fifth column wanting to aid charismatic bands of Mexican warlords, I’m doubtful. I see them assimilating before that happens. Interesting scenario, nonetheless.
Regardless of any 5th column idea, Americans of Mexican descent have been living in New Mexico since at least the late 1800s, and in large numbers. Assimilation aside, New Mexico consistently ranks at the bottom of things like Education and Income Inequality.
@Ted
Do I really come across as a woman hater?
Not exactly. You come off as someone who has a lot of unresolved issues and who is trying hard to work them out. You seem, in that process, to swing between extremes. There’s this nice, rational, sweet Ted who seems happy and grateful for what he now has. On the other extreme is this Ted who feels a need to assert his manhood lest he once again become the guy he was in his first marriage. I prefer the sweeter Ted.
Maybe your’s. Antibiotics cleared mine up pretty quickly.
Heh Joke of the month!
@JP
I think the point is that people aren’t getting married until they’re 30, so this is kind of inconsistent with social reality.
Shhhhusssshhhh. We try not to let reality interfere with manosphere theories regarding female virginity.
@Jackie
I just read the letter from “Roosh” to his younger sister. Interesting how none of it included self-respect or responsibility, just a lot of blaming, fear-mongering and bad behavior. Yes, he told her to make a guy wait, but no other words on creating a healthy relationship. (I realize he probably doesn’t know how.)
Huh? You noticed that too?
@Passer_By
Your VD joke had me literally LOL.
Based on data gathered in the field, the most accommodating are black women followed closely by ashkenazi jews.
This is not making sense to me. We all know the black male stereotype, but I haven’t heard similar regarding Ashkenazi males. Assuming that vaginas evolve to fit penises, wouldn’t there be a stereotype about Jewish men?
Next would be non-jewish white women, then middle eastern women
But Ashkenazi women have a mixture of Euro/middle eastern genes. Shouldn’t they fall midway between?
But I think black women and, surprisingly, Ashkenazi Jewish women tend to be the most orgasmic in general
A friend of mine has an Ashkenzi mom and a black dad. She must be the luckiest woman in the whole, wide world.
J: I prefer the sweeter Ted.
Cosign. Earlier in this thread, a man named Ted posted some of the loveliest comments I have ever read, about how much he enjoyed being in his wife’s company. I almost posted “I love you”, I thought it was so sweet. Then, a different Ted starting posting some not-so-lovely things regarding women. I was s-o-o-o confused (BTW, I haven’t been here long), and a bit saddened. I know my opinion is not important to you, and that there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says, but I decided to add my $.02 anyway.
deti: And the talks detiette is starting to hear are quite different from those deti jr. is getting.
Talks about sex?
@jrd
“there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says”
not quite, the actual manosphere line (if one can be said to exist, it’s a big old sphere) is more like; “Don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do”
but FWIW, I think that it should also be applied to men, and is generally speaking, great advice to everyone.
“In ancestral times, it is believed humans were serially monogamous in 4-7 years periods. Pair-bonding presumably occurred in each relationship. I am not aware of any evidence that suggests pair-bonding is “one and done.””
OK, but my experience is and what I’ve been told, most women bond to men they have had sex with. They bond with boyfriends they have sex with, and certainly with husbands. I don’t doubt if her attraction triggers are pulled and the sex is awesome, she’ll bond to a single encounter ONS.
The point is that a bond once made has to be broken so she is freed up to move on to the next man. Perhaps breaking the bond is painful, perhaps not; perhaps it takes a long time or is done in an instant. But it has to be broken one way or another. Otherwise her emotions and her heart won’t be freed up to bond to another man. I submit this is what Jackie is talking about in her comment at 1069.
Susan – “I would never regularly go to someone else’s blog with the goal of discrediting them. “
I’m not interested in rehashing any of this, but can you show me where I ever said that my goal is to discredit you? Just because I don’t agree with you on something does NOT mean I’m trying to make you look bad. YOU are the expert here, I’m just blowing out virtual spit on MY take of YOUR expertise. How many times have I said to NOT take anything I say as gospel?
J – “On the other extreme is this Ted who feels a need to assert his manhood lest he once again become the guy he was in his first marriage. I prefer the sweeter Ted.”
You are a dear. I like sweeter Ted too J, but sweeter Ted ended up divorced and facing a future of single fatherhood. IF sweeter Ted could succeed in this world, he would be the only Ted. And THIS is why I am so torn about my kids. I want to raise them with the ideals and values of Sweeter Ted, but I also know that I failed to survive as him, so I suspect they’ll have about the same success as “sweeter” people. Instead, I’m faced with turning them into something else JUST so they don’t get taken advantage of.
I don’t hate anyone, but I do hate the situation most of us are stuck dealing with.
Jrd – “Cosign. Earlier in this thread, a man named Ted posted some of the loveliest comments I have ever read, about how much he enjoyed being in his wife’s company. I almost posted “I love you”, I thought it was so sweet.”
And every bit of what I posted is 100% true. Look, I don’t understand why so many people are confused here. I love and respect my wife because I know her intimately. However I don’t extend ANY of the empathy and compassion I have for her to other women, because I don’t know them all. I have a very pessimistic view of humanity, and my default position with every person I interact with is: they suck until proven otherwise. It is not at all difficult for me to love my wife (even though she is X) and dislike everyone else who is X, because SHE proved she was better than X. So, my “not-so-lovely” take on “women” has NO reflection on my wife whatsoever, because she is far more than JUST a woman.
Put another way, she has proven to me beyond all doubt that she is better than the average women, and because of that I treat her FAR better than I do the average women. But, I’m equal opprotunity here. I don’t discriminate between sex, race, religion, nationality, or any of that crap. Instead, I tend to just believe that “people” suck, until they individually prove me wrong. I’m not a racist/sexist, I’m an elitest. FWIW I see Vox largely in the same light. I don’t think he is playing the race card, I think he is viewing things from an elitest POV.
One final comment on this: My wife EARNS “sweeter Ted” every day of her life. She gets to see that from me, because she gives it TO me. The rest of the world? Not so much…
@ Ramble
Mississippi, with its black and white population, is worse on both measures.
@deti
I’m trying to understand the bonding from a physiological and/or psychological context. It sounds as if you (and perhaps Jackie) are describing something that occurs in a binary way – bonded to a man or not bonded to him. Based on the fact that you think this can happen in a ONS I assume this has nothing to do with love.
Perhaps you are referring to oxytocin, known as the cuddle hormone? It’s present in both men and women and facilitates trust and attachment. Women experience high levels of it after orgasm, during childbirth, and while breastfeeding. Men experience it in relationships and after a child is born. It also increases in general positive social interactions, even with the same sex. Oxytocin and vasopressin together are thought to promote bonding.
http://www.livescience.com/12833-love-hormone-oxytocin-dark-side.html
The instant bonding experience you are describing is a myth. In addition, the response to the breaking of relationship bonds is grief. There is no “lifelong” bond that occurs and holds women prisoner, though this can happen for either sex in the form of mental and emotional dysfunction or illness.
@Ted D
You have never said that, but that is how I interpret your saying that you comment at HUS because I am misleading people and they need to hear a different perspective. That sets you up as my opponent, which is not a dynamic I wish to experience or perpetrate here.
Susan – “That sets you up as my opponent, which is not a dynamic I wish to experience or perpetrate here.”
Ahhhhh. I see now. I honestly don’t view opposition from others in that light, but I can see how someone might.
This strikes me as a social-type reaction to oppostion, so it isn’t surprising I missed it. I don’t think you purposely mislead anyone, and frankly I wouldn’t even say you mislead anyone at all. But, to me that still doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t know the whole truth. I’ve tossed out opposing views of things I agree on, simply because I believe people should look at the whole picture before they decide if its art or crap.
Thanks for the clarification!
From hanging out here for a little while, I think I have observed a particular stratification:
On the question of the two dominant female tracks (Career and Mom):
1) Hard Conservative View: There should really only be one track—Mom. Everyone would be happier that way.
2) Soft Conservative View: Women should have the two tracks, but should really choose one earlier than they currently are—say, around age 19-20. In other words, pick a track prior to obtaining credentials, using up educational resources, taking on student debt, etc.
3) Mainstream View: Women should have the two track options and decide which one to select, but only after getting education out of the way and starting careers. At the time of selection, a provisioning-ready male will clearly be critical, so make this part of the overall plan. Develop relationship skills via serial monogamy.
4) Soft Feminist View: Proceed with education and career as in 3, but then drop the SAHM option and associated provisioning male requirement. Have a boy toy, flings with alphas, whatever. Career should not be jeopardized; do what is necessary. Develop requisite alpha female traits—including ability to “have sex like a man” and financial independence—through all manner of relationships, including hook-ups.
5) Hard Feminist View. As in 4, but de-emphasize motherhood even more, as pregnancy is now resented and seen as an instrument of patriarchal oppression. If you just have to have kids, adopt PC ones from Bhutan or use a sperm donor, but for God’s sake remove men from the equation altogether, as men suck.
Susan:
deti: “Why not do away with all this from the outset, and start having both sides compromise and give up a little to get something more?”
Susan: “How? It’s a goal I can endorse, but I have no earthly idea how to get that ball rolling.”
Oy. Now I’m getting sucked into this thread. Here goes….
1. Return to the precepts of Marriage 1.0.
2. Marriage is one and done. For life. Forever, unless someone breaks the contract.
3. No one in marriage is going to get everything they want. Anyone who wants marriage is going to have to compromise on some things.
4. Marriage is not all fun and games. It is not always flowers and romance and walks on the beach and sweaty shake-the-plaster-off-the-walls sex. Sometimes it’s bill-paying and nose-wiping and diaper-changing and vomit-cleaning and toilet-fixing and running out the door to work meetings and seeing each other only at 9:30 pm once the kids are in bed. And you can’t end it lightly, either. There will be hard times. He will hurt you. He will say stupid shit. She will do something dumb that causes some loss of money. She will be thoughtless. She will be an emotional basket case sometimes. You have to work through it.
5. Men need to learn Game. Not for a woman, not because a woman tells you that you should learn it. Not to get laid, not to make yourself available as a boyfriend or a husband for a woman who you don’t even know. Do it for yourself. Because through it, you will become the man you were meant to be. It will give you something to live for, something to strive for, something bigger than yourself, something you can build or make or be a part of; other than begging for the approval of a woman.
Men need to get in shape, stop supplicating to women, and get realistic about their SMVs. If you are a 5 or a 6, you will not be pulling Kate Upton or Tyra Banks no matter how much expert game you spit. You might, however, be able to pull Laura Linney or Kat Dennings.
6. For the women: Susan, I know you don’t want to hear this, but some women will need to rearrange their priorities, and be more feminine. Many men are getting the clear message that marriage, and all that it entails, simply isn’t important to women at large. They are getting this message because of the hookup culture that encourages women to keep their options open, date only the very high status men, run up high Ns in their 20s, and postpone marriage until the last possible moment. They are also getting this message because of the high divorce rate. They’re shocked at how easily many women seem to be able to leave decades-long marriages with nary a second thought.
Marriage is either important to a woman, or it is not. Finding a suitable man to marry is either important to her, or it is not. She can prepare for education and a job while at the same time maintaining her femininity and being open to marriage to the right man. This might mean early marriage in her early 20s, while sacrificing education and career until later. I am not saying women have to do this; I am saying perhaps they should not foreclose it as an option. Perhaps if more women were open to this they might find marriage easier to achieve. The problem is that women don’t need to do this, thinking they can simply marry later. But if this were true, we wouldn’t have cautionary tales like Kate Bolick floating around.
Also, women should show they are good, worthy marriage risks. This means they approach and ask for dates; show clear IOIs, display feminine traits; and have low Ns. Do I expect virginity? No, I’m a realist. But I’d also look askance at 15 ONSs because that suggests someone who is a poor marriage risk, who lives in the moment, who cares little for herself; who is always looking for the next excitement/drama fix; and who will bail when the going gets tough.
Cosign Ted at 1111.
I liked nice deti. By myself, I was content being who I was as nice deti. Problem is, no one else respected him or had any use for him. He got walked on and pushed around at work, disrespected at home, and no sex. Nice deti almost got divorced and almost ruined his kids’ lives. Game deti manages his work and his life, gets laid, and watches over his kids.
“The instant bonding experience you are describing is a myth.”
If you’re saying a woman can’t bond to an ONS after having mind-blowing sex with him, I disagree. Oxytocin is released in a woman after orgasm. So if she has multiple orgasms with SuperStud One Night Stand Dude who pushes all her buttons just right, some kind of bonding probably happens, don’t you think, particularly if the science supports bonding following oxytocin release.
“In addition, the response to the breaking of relationship bonds is grief. There is no “lifelong” bond that occurs and holds women prisoner, though this can happen for either sex in the form of mental and emotional dysfunction or illness.”
Of course the breaking of relationship bonds causes grief. I didn’t say it doesn’t. The point is that some women, I think, get so bonded they can’t let them go even when SuperStud is long gone from their lives; or they simply choose to hold onto those bonds for whatever reason. To the extent it’s a prison, it is one of her own making.
@J:
“As to the idea that there is some sort of Hispanic fifth column wanting to aid charismatic bands of Mexican warlords, I’m doubtful. I see them assimilating before that happens.”
He’s just drawing parallels between the Roman Empire/Germans and present day U.S.
He’s assuming that we’ve hit peak cheap energy and are entering economic decline.
JP – “He’s assuming that we’ve hit peak cheap energy and are entering economic decline.”
You don’t think we’ve hit or are close to hitting peak cheap energy? Interesting.
I tend to think we are there or close, but being in Western PA, I can add that gas production is through the roof here because of new collection techniques. I don’t think we are 100% at peak yet, and things like this will perhaps keep it at bay a bit longer, but I’m pretty confident that we are close, and it is inevitable. That is, unless we can come up with a new source of energy the the EPA and environmentalists don’t shoot down from the word go.
@ Passer_By
Haha!
Well, I do consider myself to be somewhat of a “size queen”. I like men with larger penises than most. 7″-9″ is the sweet spot for me. The largest I’ve handled was 9″, and that was a cake walk. I just find large penises more interesting to look at and more fun to play with.
@Ted D
Thank you too for clarifying. Once again, it appears my ENFJness has gotten the better of me.
@BB
Dude, I really like the way you think.
The 5 Views are perfect, as they even include humor!
I’m not sure about the name of 3 though – that describes me to a tee, and yet I feel anything but mainstream…I think the culture peddles #4 hard.
Sassy – LOL! Damn I love your honesty and bluntness.
Deti/All – The comment above reminded me of something my grandpa used to say: “Ted, there are some people in this world whos only purpose in life is to show others what NOT to do.” (I’m sure it wasn’t an original thought, but he said it often.)
Perhaps part of what drives me here at HUS is just that: I made some major mistakes, and I own them and am fixing them. But, that doesn’t mean that my experience can’t help someone else NOT make those mistakes again. People here are saying “how can a guy that lovingly strokes his wifes hair snuggling in bed be SO bitter at women”. Much of what I post explains it. I know I’m not a 20-something guy looking for a wife. I realize that my views on many things are “old fashioned” and “stuffy”, but that doesn’t mean the things I learned in the past can’t help Cooper.
If what Susan and many women here say is true: that women want “good” or “nice” men, then they should think about what MAKES men “good” and “nice”, and how that might go off track. Deep down inside, I am a “good” man. I am very kind and considerate to my friends and family. But, I’ve been hurt, abused, taken advantage of, lied to, and cheated out of the opprotunity to make my own choices, because other people thougth they knew more about what was good for me than myself. And, like a “good” boy/man, I listened to them.
What I am today is the cumulative result of starting life as a kind and gentle person, exposed to and used by a world full of unkind people. If women want “good” men to marry, then we need to foster an environment where “good” men can prosper. The Modern West is not such an environment, and every time a conversation here goes to “why do men do X? Why can’t men do Y” my knee-jerk reaction is “because you and society have NOT created an environment where Y makes sense and X does not.”
Incentive drives behavior, and no matter how much women complain that there are “no good men” out there, they won’t magically appear. If you want good men, you have to MAKE them. And, by and large, we just aren’t making “good” people at all.
“Well, what if he’s 8 inches and she’s asian? Lifetime of hitting the backstop ahead of him. No fun for either. ”
Few asian American women I know have a shortage of cock in college and once interracially married, so the notion that they are “smaller” doesn’t ring up?
I wonder what it means if you prefer smaller, and easily reach O? That’s where I fit. (I am 6’1. It’s incredibly hard for me to even wear a tampon usually).
I think anything over 6-7 inches is ugly, and deflated looking. It’s a good thing I’ve never seen anything above 6 in person, only online.
@deti
No, I know that it doesn’t. Oxytocin levels are just as high during masturbation. Bonding, which is attachment, occurs over time. Oxytocin “primes” the psyche, if you will, to be open to developing feelings of intimacy and attachment. It does not actually produce attachment. So a woman in a FWB situation is more likely to become attached than without sex, but the oxytocin produced during non-sexual interaction with a man can also promote bonding.
Oxytocin also affects people in different ways. For example, a “cad” (as opposed to dad) will see his oxytocin levels go way up after his child is born, but the bonding may not occur because he is not emotionally capable. At the other end of the spectrum, an insecure and depressed woman may attach readily to almost anyone who provides her with the validation she craves.
Again, women are no more likely to bond than men are. In fact, I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.
Here’s Helen Fisher on the science, which is what we are talking about:
A bond that lasts well beyond the relationship is considered pathological:
“Limerence can be unending. I’ve interviewed subjects who’ve nursed a fixation on their limerence objects—LOs—for decades. What’s the trick? Their feelings were unrequited. Their LOs gave them mixed signals, like ignoring them for months and then calling. Hope, confusion, and uncertainty kept it going. The phenomenon is defined, in part, by feeling a loss of control. The limerent person can’t stop thinking about the LO: What did he mean by that? How can I interpret his tone of voice? How is he responding to me? A prolonged fixation on someone who doesn’t love you back is considered, by some psychologists, a pathology called erotomania.
@Ion
“Few asian American women I know have a shortage of cock in college and once interracially married, so the notion that they are “smaller” doesn’t ring up?”
I’ve read this like four times and still can’t figure out what you meant.
Susan – “No, I know that it doesn’t. Oxytocin levels are just as high during masturbation.”
OK, so that leaves two theories for the “alpha widow” if they exist:
1. as stated above, it is the fact that the “alpha” never fully returned her interests in a commitment, and she still longs for it. (pathological?)
2. She isn’t pining for the “alpha”, but she IS pining for the massively orgasmic pounding the “alpha” gave her.
I can’t say I know any true “alpha widows”, but I’ve known plenty of women that pined away for a past lover, which may not be as extreme as the ‘sphere paints it, but does exist all the same.
@Susan
“In fact, I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.”
I’ll vouch for this.
———————————————-
I’ll make deti’s point really simple.
We don’t want a wife sitting around fantasizing about the guy she fucked 20 years ago.
I agree with you completely, I have no problem hearing that. I’ve written several posts saying this very thing.
No doubt this would lower the marriage age and possibly increase the marriage rate. But it’s a non-starter, because parents will find this unacceptable. One of the primary provisioning acts parents perform is saving for college. Once the college bubble bursts, we may see a change, but I cannot imagine American parents – women and men – encouraging their daughters to consider the option of marrying before attending college.
Your point re Bolick is a valid one – it was her mother who urged her to ditch her first bf and stay unattached in her youth.
I believe that most women today want what Bastiat Blogger called the mainstream option. They want to earn a degree, get a good job, and then begin dating with the goal of finding a life partner. Some women deliberately set aside their 20s for fun and carousel riding, but I believe they are a minority. I think a lot of what happens is that women go along to get along and before they know it their 20s are gone and it didn’t happen. They didn’t plan for it, they didn’t take steps to meet someone, they just waited to be tapped on the shoulder by a fairy godmother’s wand.
I’ll cosign this with one exception – I am concerned that when a guy doesn’t initiate the date, he doesn’t invest in the outcome. I’m all for women giving plenty of encouragement – maybe even teasingly asking when he’s going to get around to asking. But the more I hear and read, the more I think men really don’t prefer for women to do the asking. This remains an open question – there is no consensus on this among HUS males.
“I recall reading that adolescent males “imprint” – their first sexual experience (even if it’s just a mad crush and fantasy) often dictates their “type” for the rest of their lives.”
I can vouch for it too.
@Ted
I personally have never known a woman to pine for the sex rather than the man. A good pounding from a male who does not have “favored” status appeals only to extremely unrestricted women. They tend to have a lot more partners, so I don’t see any indication they pine for a past one, but I don’t know. A woman with a broken heart will not describe sex if you ask her what she misses most. I’ll stake my nest egg on that.
Both men and women pine, i.e. grieve, for past loves where attachment has been profound. How long they pine will vary, and has a great deal to do with the mental state of the person. As I cited above, this condition is not normal behavior.
Mississippi, with its black and white population, is worse on both measures.
But we don’t have the MSM calling for, basically, open borders via “Immigration Reform” for more Deep South Blacks and Whites…but we do for the crossing of more Mexicans into America, and we can see what the result has been in places like New Mexico and Arizona.
Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?
I’m not sure about the name of 3 though – that describes me to a tee, and yet I feel anything but mainstream…I think the culture peddles #4 hard.
That is because you live in Brookline, used to live in Manhattan, got your post Grad from Penn and were raised in (fairly) wealthy SoCal.
If you lived in Topeka, your ideas and attitudes would almost definitely be mainstream.
Another thing I might add for women to “compromise” is this:
The hookup culture fosters in women a strong tendency to conflate their SMVs with their MMVs. Nearly all women have higher SMVs than MMVs. I think some realism is in order. Women on the carousel or watching the carousel need to know that their only real value to the hot alphas is as a sex partner. Those alphas are not considering marriage, no way no how, not to her, and not to anyone. While a male 9 will happily sex a female 6, there is no way he’ll wife her up.
The way it looks to a lot of men, there are a fair number of women saying they have no problem with this. It looks to men that most women would rather sex a 9 for a night than marry a 6 for 50 years. Perhaps what women can do to change that perception is… stop sleeping with the 9s and getting nothing in return. Start dating, having sex with, and marrying the 5s, 6s and 7s.
Lokland
“I’ve read this like four times and still can’t figure out what you meant.”
Perhaps I misread the original comment, that east Asian women are “petite” everywhere, and therefore 8 inches might be uncomfortable because they are accustomed to smaller sizes.
My point was that they seem to be interracially marrying and thus, taking in larger non-asian male penises just fine (and judging by what I saw in college, from both black and white men). Unless we’re to believe that these women experience lifelong discomfort when they interracially marry.
If we’re too judge based on interracial dating as well, more women of non-black ethnicities are size queens than the other way around, since this is where the rumor must’ve come from, and is often cited as a reason for interracially dating among white and asian women I’ve heard.
Of course I believe it’s pop culture that’s pushed the rumors to a degree that size matters…and it mainly matters to women on the carousel. Women who are restricted aren’t going to “stretch” unless frequent sex has stretched them.
Blah blah blah lol, I don’t know for certain, because again, I haven’t been out screwing random guys from all ethnicities and taking notes, I can only go by my own limited experiences and size preferences.
“Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you”
Or she married you not because she was truly “in love” with you, but because you were her best option at the time.
I know you dont’ believe this happens often Susan, but orbitted enough women (granted in the late 80′s early 90′s, but I doubt much has changed on this particular topic) to know that many “pine” for lost lovers. In most cases involving the stereotypical cad, she pines because she didn’t manage to “lock it down”, and despite supposedly moving on, she still wants him, or another guy she sees as the same in quality (which generally also is another cad-like guy)
If such a woman years later matures and learns that there are more important things in a husband than his “bad boy attitude”, then she may find a “good” guy and settle down happily. But, what about the women that go well into their late 2o’s still looking for the “perfect cad”, that is, she is still stuck on making a “bad boy” her “kitchen bitch”? Yes, I’m exaggerating, but the meme exists because it has some basis in reality.
I’ll add that perhaps the real issue is: not only is the West not making “good” people, but also making more “batshit crazy” people than ever before. I can completely see this as a plausible explaination for much of what I see. People are not growing, maturing, and settling into healthy adult attitudes as early as they used to, if at all.
@deti (1110)
Hey deti,
You are taking one person — who defines herself as an outlier — and extrapolating her belief/opinion to women as a whole. Not cool. It also seems like you are taking my personal belief and using it to push an agenda. Also not cool.
I was speaking for *myself*, not an entire gender!
I would never presume to speak for the bonding abilities of other women.
There are all kinds of people in the world; as I said in my follow-up, I would prefer to see people making decisions from a healthy, balanced place. *That may be different for each person.*
My guess is that about 10-20% of teenaged males suffer from Erotomania.
@Susan
“eah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?”
Kind of a non-issue for me.
I don’t really care, but I suspect you are more correct than him.
@Ion
Thats what I thought you meant.
What I quoted was garbuldeegook in terms of meaning.
Maybe I just haven’t had enough coffee yet though.
@Ted D
“Or she married you not because she was truly “in love” with you, but because you were her best option at the time.”
Human beings can rationalize almost anything.
Being the best at the time can quite literally mean being in love with the person.
Self defence mechanism.
“Maybe I just haven’t had enough coffee yet though.”
Haha, you and me both :-/.
I’m gonna go get that second cup now I think.
@ Jackie: “You are taking one person — who defines herself as an outlier — and extrapolating her belief/opinion to women as a whole. Not cool. It also seems like you are taking my personal belief and using it to push an agenda. Also not cool.”
Sorry if you were offended. I didn’t mean to hold you up as an example of anything, nor am I using it to push an agenda. Respectfully, I think you are overreacting a tad.
I don’t understand this idea that I or someone else cannot use something someone says on this board as a springboard to discuss a point I want to make, or to illustrate it. People extrapolate, use, discuss, disagree with and dissect things I say here and elsewhere all the time. Susan takes what I say elsewhere and criticizes, analyzes it, and uses it to support points she wants to make.
Can we all develop thicker skins here?
@ deti
How feasible is this? I’m not entirely sure.
Women want what they want. Either women will strive to get what they want, succeeding or failing in the process, or they will settle for someone who “will do”.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about dating these past few months, and I’ve decided that the first option sounds infinitely better than the second option. I won’t settle. That will only frustrate me, or make me resentful, and it will hurt the man I settle for. I would rather go after men that I truly desire. If I fail, it will suck, but I will survive. What’s the point of marrying a man that I am indifferent towards just so I can say that I am married, or so that I can avoid being alone? That’s definitely not fair to the guy, and it isn’t a savory option for myself.
@Ted
The human condition is universal. Haven’t you read history?
“I’ll add that perhaps the real issue is: not only is the West not making “good” people, but also making more “batshit crazy” people than ever before. I can completely see this as a plausible explaination for much of what I see.”
===
Ted, a significant percentage of the population has always been “crazy” (ie massive dysfunction). And I don’t think it’s “the West,” which seems to be your favorite scapegoat.
I think we’re actually getting better, in that illness is being studied and diagnosis attempted… instead of charging people to observe them for fun, like Bedlam Hospital in the 19th century.
The only difference is that there are simply MORE of them, on basis of the highest population. But I’d bet the percentage has always been pretty stable. Besides that, people spent so much of their time on survival or they didn’t live to extend their “craziness” the way we can today.
Sassy:
“How feasible is this? I’m not entirely sure.”
I am not either. But I consider that you’re a self-described 8 who claims to be hot enough to date alpha men, and that this is the way you feel about it at this point in your life, at age 24. Given your attitude that you won’t settle (meaning you won’t COMPROMISE — there is a difference), I think you’d do well to avoid marriage.
Most women are not 8s, nor are they in grad school, nor do they have promising careers ahead of them. Most women can only ONS alpha men. Most women have no hope of locking down such a desirable man for commitment.
Most women have an SMV of between 4 and 7. Somewhere between the ages of 25 and 50 they will all will lose at least 2 of those SMV points. Most want to marry a suitable man. Further, there aren’t nearly enough male 8s, 9s and 10s to marry all the women who want them — and that would be true even if every single one of those men wanted to get married and stayed married.
I appreciate your honesty. Would that more women were as self-aware. I think most women feel the way you do, but are hopelessly unrealistic about the difference between what they can have for a night, and what they can have for a lifetime. And that is the source of their pain and frustration.
@Susan
“the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy.”
Story time.
Couple I knew back in grad school (shortly after meeting my wife).
Been together a longish time.
She thinks he is too nice. Actual words, “I can’t believe I’m complaining that my boyfriend is too nice but he is.” (To me, like I’m supposed to have solve the damn problem. I just wanted to drink wine.)
They end up in a foursome with another girl-guy. (Nice guy boyfriend cries in his room after.)
Shortly thereafter girl wants to have threesome with just guy.
Solution, nice guy boyfriend gets so pissed off it actually escalates to physical violence. They fight, they hit each other a bit.
Girl is now happy. I just sit and continue drinking wine wondering when crazy train stops.
I’ll admit, I knew this girl was bat shit crazy from the get-go.
Her boyfriend was too ‘nice’.
I suspect a lot of this “my wife wants to fuck another guy” shtick from guys is from ‘nice’ ie. doormat guys.
I highly doubt the ‘not nice’ guys have problems with their women wanting to fuck other guys. Maybe love them but not fuck.
@deti
It’s not about thicker skins– it’s about accuracy:
I see all kinds of unhealthy stuff being sold on the Manosphere. So much of it is inaccurate and so much of it perpetuates fear-mongering and hatefulness.
I think there is a HUGE contingent of men who are freaked out that their wife has somehow bonded to another man. That the possibility evens exists. Instead of talking about it, owning their role in their relationship, and looking for solutions, memes get promoted instead. “The Carousel,” “Alpha Widow,” etc.
Memes trumping self-awareness shuts down both dialogue and the possibility for learning. And, ironically, the chance to avoid difficulty in the first place.
There may be women out there who may have had sex with these so-called alphas, who are still incredibly bonded with their husband and only him. Only he can’t believe that, since the meme says it’s not true.
That is where I take issue, deti. I hope this makes sense.
Jackie – “The human condition is universal. Haven’t you read history”
Well sure! Lots of examples of mental issues in history, but I didn’t literally mean “batshit crazy” to be some type of diagnosed mental illness. To me, our general attitude in the West (I don’t know any other cultures, so I can’t rag on them…) is “batshit crazy” in that we promote an environment that brings out the worst in humanity. We teach people to be self-serving and selfish, which IMO starts to look a bit like “batshit crazy” as the entitlement it creates grows over time.
If I was implying that we had more legitimate mental health issues now, I’d have said “mental health”, not “batshit crazy”. IMO, I’ve known plenty of “batshit crazy” people that would probably pass a psychological exam with a clean bill of health. But that doesn’t change the fact that their behavior is nuts.
But, I do see your point about the larger population. It hadn’t occurred to me that with more people comes more “defects” (for lack of a better word. Not claiming mentally ill people are defective). Kinda puts some wind in the sails of folks that think we are overpopulating the planet. If there was less of us, there’d be less “batshit crazy” people running around.
Thanks for the perspective.
Sassy:
I’d also add that one cannot extrapolate your views to the population at large, because you’ve made it clear you don’t want children. I submit most women feel differently primarily because they want to have children.
Lokland – “Human beings can rationalize almost anything.
Being the best at the time can quite literally mean being in love with the person.”
I’ll add this to the list of reasons I think “people” suck. Lovely to ponder how many people “talked themselves” into a marriage based on rationalization. And, if what you say is true, many of them may truly not have known they didn’t really love the other.
This makes my head hurt…
Sassy,
Your confirming exactly what deti is saying.
That you’d much rather ramain in the SMP (and sleep with men at your SMV), than to ever marry at your MMV.
” If I fail, it will suck, but I will survive.”
And what if, one day, you change your mind?
@Ted
Ted, we’re probably on the same page re: culture of the West. I think it’s profoundly dysfunctional and disconnected. The things we put on the pedestal of “success” are often soul-destroying.
It also takes a very strong person to go against the grain of the culture. To be in the culture, but not of it, so to speak. I think the best thing to do is to take individual action:
Unplug the devices and spend time in the shelter of each other. (Ha ha, irony as I’m typing this on the computer!
)I also think that we need to truly learn to listen to each other — not just hearing, listening– and ourselves. I feel that the siren-song of materialism and selfishness puts people into a trance, like hypnosis. And we have to stand back and snap out of it. 
@ Jackie:
“The Carousel,” “Alpha Widow,” etc.
The carousel isn’t a “meme”. It’s based on observations, and it’s been talked about here. It can’t be denied there are women who have chase and/or have sex with high status alpha men, and those men only, purposely putting off marriage.
The s0-called “Alpha Widow” isn’t a meme either. I think Susan has just put up some science that says Alpha Widows are batshit crazy. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist; it just means they’re nuts.
You’re saying that men aren’t owning their roles in their relationships. Maybe there is some of that; but I’d have to disagree for the most part. Pointing out female dysfunction does not mean a refusal to see male dysfunction. Believe me, Jackie, I know what my dysfunctions are. I have them thrown in my face all day, every minute of every day, by my family, my employer, the media, and the culture. There has been scant little information about what the female role in relationships is, and in the SMP at large.
Jackie,
Maybe that’s true, maybe it isn’t. As someone who has been officially diagnosed as “crazy” and takes crazy meds, I suspect I would’ve had the same symptoms living in, say, West Africa. In fact, every day I thank my lucky stars my symptoms did not manifest themselves when I was studying abroad in a developing country; I can’t imagine I would’ve received the appropriate medical care.
@ deti
I agree with you. It does explain a lot of the frustration women feel in today’s SMP.
I wouldn’t say, however, that I am unwilling to compromise. I think I’ve had this discussion before, so I don’t see the need to rehash the whole thing again. In my opinion, there is a vast amount of difference between “settling” and “compromising”. I am willing to compromise, but I am unwilling to settle.
@ Cooper
1. I’m not out randomly sleeping with men at my SMV, though I can’t say that I haven’t been tempted. I like sex, so it’s like turning down my favorite food when I am hungry. Lord knows that my N count could be astronomically higher than it is based solely on the amount of male attention I receive.
2. Are you asking me what will happen if I decide that I do want to be married and not alone, the particular man be damned? I don’t think that will happen. If it did, I’d think something was seriously wrong with me. On the other hand, I focus a great deal of attention on my physical appearance, and will most likely continue doing so. If I ever become desperate enough to marry a man that I don’t particularly like, I’m sure I could pull it off. I may not be very attracted to a man, but I’d consider being with him if he had enough money to compensate for the lack of attraction.
That’s a very cutthroat way of looking at things, but I’ve never been particularly keen on sappy sentiments.
“But Ashkenazi women have a mixture of Euro/middle eastern genes. Shouldn’t they fall midway between?”
Perhaps my data sampling (either askenazi jew or middle eastern) is nonrepresentative. However, I’m not convinced that there is a whole lot of middle eastern decent in ashkenazi jews. Seems more like an eastern euro tribe that was converted by a few jews from the middle east. But I’m no geneticist. Just a really high quality internet crank theorist.
Also, for what it’s worth, I have heard a stereotype about jewish guys that way.
“I see all kinds of unhealthy stuff being sold on the Manosphere. So much of it is inaccurate and so much of it perpetuates fear-mongering and hatefulness.”
What kind of “unhealthy stuff” is sold in the manosphere? What is inaccurate? What perpetuates “fear mongering and hatefulness”?
What do you make of the Katy Perry song accompanied by the video in which she portrays an old woman, still pining away for her badboy lover who perished young in a car-over-the-cliff accident? Doesn’t that depict the pathology some women display?
Do you doubt that there are some women who are “Alpha Widows”? I will accept that alpha widowhood is a strong indication of batshit crazy and not a result of instantaneous oxytocin bonding. Can you accept the notion that there are some women out there who never “get over” a superalpha lover and it damages a marriage to what she perceives as a lesser man?
Can you accept the notion that a woman’s higher N increases the chance that she’s got an alpha out there she might not have gotten over?
Can you accept the notion that such a woman isn’t a good bet for marriage and that men should be on the lookout for that kind of pathology?
Elaboration please.
Let google be your friend, Lokland. Read and form your own opinion. I’d hate to influence that.
@deti
” Believe me, Jackie, I know what my dysfunctions are. I have them thrown in my face all day, every minute of every day, by my family, my employer, the media, and the culture. There has been scant little information about what the female role in relationships is, and in the SMP at large. ”
====
deti, two things:
First, I am sorry that has happened to you. No one likes having things “thrown in [their] face all day, every minute of the day.” That sounds hellish.
I hope you will stop and ask yourself if these dysfunctions are true, or agenda-driven. What proof can the media and culture have on the specific dysfunctions of deti? If there is no proof, how can it be true and not agenda-driven? If they are agenda-driven, get mad (justifiably!) with the corrupt system.
But not with your fellow travellers (men and women), who are probably experiencing the same thing.
Second: In regards to the “scant information” on the female role: What percentage of relationship advice is targeted to women in the culture? Because just about everything I see — books, magazines, products– is about how to get a man or keep a man.
Trust me, deti, the crap is being flung both ways. I used to feel SO BADLY when I would read here and the manosphere because it was all about how women need to be hotter, picking apart supermodels and trashing the same girls who slept with them.
The job is to stop flinging crap and start telling people the truth –and I think the truth is more complex than the m-sphere would like–in a way that respects them.
Then, a different Ted starting posting some not-so-lovely things regarding women. I was s-o-o-o confused
Yeah, our Ted has some pretty broad swings that way.
I know my opinion is not important to you, and that there is a rule that a man should ignore what a woman says, but I decided to add my $.02 anyway.
I’m a middle-aged mother of two.
Exactly how honest would you be with this hypothetical man? Would you tell him, before any marriage, that you did not find him attractive but that you liked his money?
@Ted D
LOL, I’ll agree with this.
As I said, women who hold on and pine for years have issues. In any case, I do not understand how a man gets to the point of watching one of these women walk up the aisle. I know you’ve said before that you were not sure what to expect, but IMO the bottom line is this: If a man does not feel that his wife is head over heels for him and wanting to sex him up on a very regular basis, he should not marry. No man should marry unless he literally feels worshipped and adored.
And no woman should marry unless she is with a one-woman man who has gone over the cliff.
While I’m sure that you’ll have Aristotelian reason to disagree, I believe most moral codes of the type you are suggesting are borne out of the need to avoid bad consequences. Sex out of wedlock was undoubtedly condemned as sinful and immoral in major religions because of the obvious consequences of fatherless children and destitute mothers. You can’t bring back those moral codes without the consequences.
Exactly. It took broad social, medical and economic changes to get us here. In some ways, we will never be able to go back. I imagine that, as the economy tightens and there is less government support, there will be fewer OOW births (and more abortion). As long as the Pill exists, there will be pre-marital sex.
@Lokland
Sorry to invoke the show Girls, but there’s a scene between two women that is very much about this. They talk about doormat Charlie and then one observes that the problem is that he has a vagina.
That’s the real issue. Women don’t want to have sex with men who have vaginas. If we’re sexually attracted to femininity, there’s a more direct route.
@Olive
That’s a really good point. I will say, though, my sister is in South Africa where they do have universal healthcare and she’s gotten some things much easier than she would have in the US!
Jackie – “In regards to the “scant information” on the female role: What percentage of relationship advice is targeted to women in the culture? Because just about everything I see — books, magazines, products– is about how to get a man or keep a man. ”
And Jackie, how much of all that womanly advice is correct? Even healthy?! I see a lot of trash advice and not very little real substance when standing in line at the grocery…
J – LOL. I hate to say it, but what you see are NOT swings from one extreme to the other. I can and do hold different views of issues at the same time with ease. For example: I can believe that “people” suck, but surely I know people that are exceptional specimines of what humanity has to offer. I fully recognize that my wife has many wonderful qualities, but under all that she is still a woman. I may believe that most/many/all women are hypergamous, but my wife has proved to me she can control hers.
So, I can with no sense of guilt or disonance say that women are hypgergamous WITHOUT seeing it as a dig on my wife. She is my wife first, and a woman second. Wife trumps woman every time.
Susan – “If a man does not feel that his wife is head over heels for him and wanting to sex him up on a very regular basis, he should not marry. No man should marry unless he literally feels worshipped and adored. ”
LOL OK. But, do we as a society even encourage women to “worship and adore” their BF/Husbands? Because honestly, I grew up NOT to expect such a thing, because it was implied “worship and adoration” meant “subserviant” and we just can’t have women in the lesser role.
Not being snarky, I’m 100% serious. I would have NEVER in a million years expected this from a woman before the Red Pill, because I was taught NOT to expect it. Sure, I can look back now and see all kinds of red flags I missed with my ex, but I missed them because I was directed to by society, the Church, and my own family. She had doubts, and so did I. Do you know what everyone, and I mean EVERYONE said? “that’s normal! Everyone has doubts when getting married. Its just nerves!” Well, 13 years and a divorce proved otherwise I guess. Stupid me for listening to those I thought knew better.
@deti
deti, i have to run in a minute and will try to respond to you later tonight. i don’t think we’re far apart in our beliefs– but i am less swayed by popular culture’s ability to depict authenticity than you are, i think.
@ Ramble
Honestly, probably not. I would already be lying to him by entertaining the idea of marrying him, or even by dating him. I would be feigning interest in him the entire time. The point of marrying him wouldn’t be for attraction. It would be to gain the title of being married, not to mention avoiding being alone. At that point, one more lie wouldn’t be hard to tell.
I’m reminded of Hugh Hefner/Crystal Harris and Anna Nicole Smith/her husband. Those are both examples of very strategic gold-diggers. If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.
@Sassy
Sorry, you just provoke a knee-jerk reaction in me with things you say, sometimes.
I have to remind myself that “what you want” isn’t necessarily “what you can’t get.” I’m sometimes quick to assume that attractive = unavailable, when it comes to women wishing to remain single.
It’s not wonder why (some) guys have a preference for low-N, cause we know full-well that most women can sleep with men they wouldn’t be able to receive commitment from. So when (some) women talk about “not settling” it comes off as entitlement towards wanting to marry the same men that they can get via casual sex. When in reality a women is bound to have to aim slightly lower than her hookups for commitment.
Men are looking to essentially ‘lock it down,’ and we feel like 1. we much more likely to be inadequate if the woman has had a bunch of sex, at her SMV-level. And 2. That her decision to keep sleeping around at her SMV-level indicates either A. She isn’t very aware, if she doesn’t see it B. she has disassociated emotional from physical intimacy. Which guys believe run risks in the long-term.
Tl;dr – you evoke outbursts from me, which I realize may not be accurate to you in particular.
” I may not be very attracted to a man, but I’d consider being with him if he had enough money to compensate for the lack of attraction.”
*Gol..*. Ah, nvm.
@Susan, deti
“That’s the real issue. Women don’t want to have sex with men who have vaginas. If we’re sexually attracted to femininity, there’s a more direct route.”
Yup.
A woman who is pining away for a past boyfriend is either;
a) bat shit crazy (in which case their is no solution)
b) hubby is a pussy (solution possible)
c) or some combo of the above.
I suspect most women COULD start pining away for a past lover if hubby fell to low in dominance but this amount would vary depending on the woman’s own level of bat shit craziness.
@deti
Something can be true and be a meme – it just means the idea has gone viral. There are definitely manosphere memes, many of which have some validity, but most tend to be gross exaggerations.
There obviously are hardcore sluts who do not seek relationships, or fruitlessly seek them with men they can’t have. I suppose they might be called alpha groupies – they do exist. However, they represent a small fraction of the female population, so when people generalize that meme to the whole population, which is very common in the sphere, a false notion has been perpetrated.
A good example is the idea of “carousel watching.” This makes no sense, as women who want to have sex with alphas are usually able to do so easily. The idea of other women looking on longingly doesn’t ring true to me, and I’ve never observed it. In fact, I’ve never heard it anywhere but in the sphere, from men. In fact, there is a lot of data that shows that 80% of college women avoid casual sex and disapprove of it. So here’s another “meme” that has been repeated again and again until it appears to have some semblance of validity. In point of fact, it’s baseless.
It says that hanging on to old, broken relationships for a long time is pathological. It says nothing about sex as the source of that longing, and it applies equally to both sexes, and probably all kinds of men. The idea that betas haven’t broken any hearts along the way is silly.
So again, “alpha widow” doesn’t really make any sense, any more than beta widow, or alpha female widower. Heartbreak comes in all shapes and sizes. In fact, I don’t think alphas break many hearts, because they bail long before attachment occurs. Any attachment the woman experiences is one-sided and pathological by definition. It’s probably true that the exes of narcissists are more likely to be emotionally high strung.
@J
“Let google be your friend, Lokland. Read and form your own opinion. I’d hate to influence that.”
You took to long.
Prior opinion confirmed.
Jackie,
Awesome, I’m sure some medical care is great in other countries! I’m doubtful about psychiatric care. Consider that I did not receive appropriate medical attention and was not diagnosed correctly until I went to Johns Hopkins, which is arguably one of the best hospitals in the world (also where my mom had cancer treatments! My family is so lucky to live nearby).
Yeah I get that and I’m telling you guys to chill out, the whole meme is a myth unless your wife is batshit crazy. It that simple enough for you?
The problem is that this corner of the net aggregates men who married women who were either batshit crazy or users. In some cases, a lack of judgment on the man’s part was a factor. While I have no doubt that deti, who has come to speak for those guys, had the experience he says he had, I question why it needs to color the experiences of others.
@Deti 1162
This recent song is totally about a woman who falls in love with a gangster alpha badboy and “will love [him] til the end of time” and that she’d wait a million years for him even though she hasn’t seen him since.
Lana Del Rey – Blue Jeans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvgfVbnpeQs
Also, I know a girl who was a virgin and had sex with a guy once she had fallen in love with and still writes him every so often, pining after him, wishing he would fall in love with her, even though she has a boyfriend she says she wants to marry.
@lokland
You took too long. Prior opinion confirmed.
LOL. You googled? Fascinating, no?
@J
Eyebrow raising, thats for sure.
@Ted D
Perhaps worshipped and adored is not the best choice of language, if it implies submission. That is not what I meant. I think that a man or a woman should know with 100% certainty that their SO is deeply in love with them, not desirous of being with anyone else, invested in spending a lifetime together, physically attracted, admiring, sexy, etc. The whole package. One doesn’t necessarily have to marry for love, but if that’s what you’re doing it for, then you need to know what being in love looks like. It really is about being a bit crazy, i.e. “I’m crazy about him.”
@ Ted D:
That’s your opinion as to what the “whole truth” is. It’s very subjective to say when you disagree the other person isn’t saying the whole truth. We’re own prone to do this, FTR, but is does come across as derailing when you come to someone’s blog, argue against them. You say that your intent isn’t to cause waves but to spread the “truth” in your view, but to the other person you are undermining their words.
I don’t have an answer for how to proceed. I just wanted to point out you can’t have it both ways. We all have opinions but constantly arguing the opposite is being disruptive.
@ Ion:
This is interesting.
I don’t know if mostly unrestricted women are size queens, but I’d wager the correlation is there between casual sex and large size preference. Gay men tend to be size queens and they engage in casual sex at much higher rates than the general population. (Also fun fact: The average penis size for gay men is larger than the size for straight men. This means gay men have bigger dongs!)
FWIW, I am not a size queen. Average size is fine for me (5″ – 6″). I would rather pick a guy who is on smaller side of spectrum than one who is bigger! IMO, girth is where it’s at! Thick > thin
I’m reminded of Hugh Hefner/Crystal Harris and Anna Nicole Smith/her husband. Those are both examples of very strategic gold-diggers. If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.
People rag on those women, but I say they derserve every penny they got and more. I personally won’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis until I’m 65/75/85. I’m sure I’ll be fantastic at it though since, at some point, I should be able to remove my teeth first.
J – “While I have no doubt that deti, who has come to speak for those guys, had the experience he says he had, I question why it needs to color the experiences of others.”
Why does Deti coming here to speak his mind have to “color the experiences” of others? People should decide for their own damn selves what to put their faith in. Deti is simply doing what I and everyone else here does: speak from their own experiences. So what if Deti thinks all women can become an alpha widow? If you don’t believe him, ignore it. Or, go out and jump a few alphas and see where it gets you.
I cannot understand why so many people here are gung ho for all the positive stuff posted, but get pissy about the negative. Life isn’t always peachy ya know?
For my part, I don’t come here with fire and brimstone hoping to “color” anyone’s experience. I’m hoping that in fact my ranting might save them FROM having one of those experiences, by learning to avoid the mistakes I made along the way. I get the impression that Deti is coming from the same angle much of the time, but somehow everyone seems to completely miss the genuine desire to HELP PEOPLE by demonstrating what NOT to do.
Typos! Meant to say:
“We’re all prone to do this, FTR..”*
Iggles – “That’s your opinion as to what the “whole truth” is. It’s very subjective to say when you disagree the other person isn’t saying the whole truth.”
Well, if this is where you are coming from, then we need to start talking philosophy about what IS truth. because unless we are discussing gravity, which can be easily proven, “truth” is highly subjective and a matter of perspective. To me, only glossing over the good stuff and ignoring the bad IS NOT the truth. Perhaps I’m unique in that I don’t want people to tell me what is right or wrong. I want people to preset the situation completely, and let ME decide what is right/wrong FOR ME. I can’t do that if I only hear “the good stuff” and none of the bad.
Does that make sense? I’m not saying anyone here is wrong. I’m saying that right OR wrong, there are always many sides to an issue, and presenting an issue without discussing ALL the sides is disingenous to me.
I can’t tell you how many times I have to start a sentence with “I’m not saying you’re wrong but…” in real life. I simply cannot stand watching people base decisions on incomplete or faulty information. I want the good, the bad, and the ugly all laid bare, and then as an individual I can asses what it means to me, and what if anything I want to do about it.
However, I’m not convinced that there is a whole lot of middle eastern decent in ashkenazi jews. Seems more like an eastern euro tribe that was converted by a few jews from the middle east. But I’m no geneticist. Just a really high quality internet crank theorist.
LOL. I’d say that you are. Khazars? Srsly?
The human genome project seems to prove that Ashkenazi Jews are just whom they have always thought they were–middle-easterners whose great-grandmothers were raped by Cossacks and whose great-grandfathers banged the occasionally Polish maid. Full-blooded Ashkenazis are similar to black Americans in that, while there is sizeable admixture from the majority population, they are still a discrete and identifiable group. Other research shows Ashkenazi Jews to carry markers similar to those carried by Palestinian Arabs. There is also research that indicates that something like 60% of modern Askenazi Jews are descended from the same four middle-eastern women.
Also, for what it’s worth, I have heard a stereotype about jewish guys that way.
I’ve actually heard the opposite though I doubt it’s true. OTOH, I’d assume the claims of penile chosen-ness are just a nasty rumor started by Jewish men.
Interestingly I’ve heard that Arab men are quite well endowed. One would expect Sephardic Jews to be similar. That would argue for the ability of Sephardic women to accomodate them, I think.
LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!
Mike C comes here and says there shouldn’t be a problem with a 35 YO man’s preference for dating a 23 YO woman, and all hell breaks loose.
Keep in mind that songs are written to sell, not to express the real experience of the singer or songwriter. That’s why songs that speak about undying love and obsession are very popular – we’d all like to think we could have that kind of power, as well as that kind of heady experience. Those are big emotions that everyone can relate to.
In the pining genre, my favorite is Jar of Hearts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v_4O44sfjM
It’s autobiographical – she walks away.
Susan – “Keep in mind that songs are written to sell, not to express the real experience of the singer or songwriter”
Surely! But, why exactly is a song like that popular IF many people do NOT find something that resontates in it? Unless you are implying that most people don’t even bother to understand what the lyrics of a song actually mean. YOu might be right, but if so then it kinda confirms a lot of my problems with “people”. There isn’t a song, book, or movie *I* listen to , read, or watch that contains a message contrary to my outlook on life. I will literally change the radio station when that song comes on, because I find the subject distasteful. Even better? Christina Agularia’s new song. I actually think as a piece of pop mucis it is pretty damn good, but I refuse to listen to it because the subject is her going out to score a ONS to “get over” a past lover. To me, promoting such an idea is irresponsible, and trashy. So, I don’t support it by listening despite the fact that I actually think it is a decent music.
That’s not true! That meets the divide in half and add seven rule! We’re very open here about the peak of beauty and fertility. I wrote about it just last week, that’s not controversial. We have had some controversy around men over 40 hitting on teens, it’s true.
As for a 70 year old penis, I expect to have one in my mouth in about 12 years.
@ Cooper
I had a similar dynamic with Jesus Mahoney for quite a long time. You are my new victim.
Mwahahahahaha!
From Sassy: “If I ever became desperate enough, I’m sure I could take one for the team by marrying a really old wealthy guy. I would expect to get millions of dollars out of that, considering that I wouldn’t be willing to go down on a 70/80/90 year old penis otherwise.”
-Is it too late to submit 2012 Quote of the Year candidates?
Susan,
I want to comment on this particular passage because it’s a really good example of how you sometimes use data that say one thing and expand them to indicate something more.
I actually think THIS is a manosphere meme. It is not simply a matter of a 5 or 6 walking up to the hottest guy on campus, using her feminine wiles, and succeeding in getting his pants simply because he wants to have sex with as many women as possible.
There’s this weird idea in the sphere that any woman can have sex with a hot guy, and at the risk of stirring up controversy, I would like to reject that notion. Hot guys have their choice of women, they can afford to be picky and still get around. Maybe if a hottie was on a desert island with a 6, he’d get with her, but what is often ignored is that hookups occur in a social context. Female intrasexual competition is a strong presence, and at the end of the day, the coupling often breaks down in an assortative manner.
I’d actually be interested in the opinion of someone like Zach, though, as he strikes me as someone who is right in the thick of it and can basically have his choice of the ladies.
It’s not exactly observable. I really wish I had stats on the amount of students who get hookups proportionate to the amount of students who go out on a given weekend, but I don’t. I will argue, however, that it’s actually quite small… so why do so many students continue to go out? This is what the carousel effect is. People go out because they HOPE to hook up (that’s what the drinking is usually about, yes?) but my guess is that a girl will get one hookup a semester, if that. But it’s not that she disapproves of hookups 99% of the time and suddenly changes her mind on that 1%, it’s that she spends a lot of time hoping for something that she can’t have.
I’ve actually been a big proponent of this theory.
It goes along with what I observed in college, but also does not conflict with the data.
Susan, this right here is EXACTLY what I mean about making inferences from the data that just aren’t specific enough for these inferences to be valid. You have thoroughly convinced me that 80% of college women (and men) have very few partners, but I do not remember reading any hard data about 80% of college women who actively disapprove and seek to avoid casual encounters. You cannot conclude, just from partner count data, that these 80% completely eschew casual (and by casual, I don’t just mean sex, but also makeouts and all the stuff in between that wasn’t necessarily included in the data).
Now, it’s highly possible that, given the choice, 80% of women would choose traditional dating over the hookup scene any day. I actually don’t really doubt that, a lot of people aren’t happy with hookup culture. BUT this still does not mean that these women ALWAYS avoid frat parties and bars with dance floors and the like. Carousel watching is not just about “longing,” it’s also about mixed feelings. “I’m here with my friends, I don’t really want to get down with anyone, but oh hey, my friend just got this guy to dance with me and wait! is he making out with me now? crap I told myself this would never happen and I actually kinda like it.” That internal narrative represents the beginning of my entire foray into hookup culture.
Hm, I think you’d have to present a better argument to convince me it was baseless.
If you’re saying a woman can’t bond to an ONS after having mind-blowing sex with him, I disagree. Oxytocin is released in a woman after orgasm. So if she has multiple orgasms with SuperStud One Night Stand Dude who pushes all her buttons just right, some kind of bonding probably happens, don’t you think, particularly if the science supports bonding following oxytocin release.
Wow! Where is this Wonder Stud? AFAICT, most ONS are pretty disappointing for women. It look me years to train DH to “push all my buttons just right” and stop doing shit that pleased some other woman. IME, the more investment a man has in pleasing a woman, the more likely she is to have an oxytocin releasing experience. Though it’s probably not something anyone would want to see video of, I have to say that the best sex I’ve had involves a quarter century investment on DH’s part.
I really think you overgeneralize from your own bad experience and have built many layers of protective pseudo-science and rationalization around that overgeneralization. I also think you’d be happier if you realized that.(Sorry if that sounds harsh, pls consider it an early Xmas tough love present.)
I don’t think anyone gets pissy about negative problems they perceive are real. I know that I am less inclined to engage in debate when the premise is one that I believe is applicable to a very small number of people. Why discuss what sex-positive non-cisgendered feminists are doing – who they have sex with, whether they plan to marry, what their careers are, etc. They may pose a problem for society, but as I keep saying, I’m not writing to solve society’s problems. I don’t know how to do that. We can all say what we would like to see happen, but unless I can see some practical application, I’m not particularly interested.
I’m far more interested in responding to a letter like ALW sent this week, and helping her figure out how to navigate a very difficult culture and circumstance.
LOL at Sassy and J dishing about how they don’t want to fellate a 70 YO dick, and nary a peep of protest. MISANDRY!
Dude, who’s dishing about not wanting to do that?! I wouldn’t have wanted to do that as a younger woman and certainly don’t feel ready to do it now, but some toothless 69 is definitely in my future–provided of course that neither of us drops dead first.
Well, actually I’ll get implants rather than dentures….
@ Susan
If you’re referring to the Desidirius lifeguard incident, you need to stop going on about that. Desi didn’t hit on anyone. The teen hit on Desi, and he did not accept her advances.
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