Dear Susan,
I have been hooking up with a guy consistently for four months. It started out that we both wanted a friends-with-benefits situation, and we would basically hang out, do homework, etc., and of course hook up, but that was it. He made it very clear to me that he wasn’t into me further than a physical relationship and that he was on a break with his gf, so he still had feelings for her. I didn’t really have them for him either, though. I just thought he was attractive and fun, so perfect hookup material.
Throughout these four months, I helped him deal with his gf calling things quits and I have been tutoring him in school, and we have become overall closer friends. He even told me that I am his best girl friend and that he trusts me more than any other girl he knows.
Recently he has started acting really sweet to me and like he wants something more:
- He gets really upset when I need to leave him and always finds excuses to spend more time with me.
- He also has started wanting to go out on what I would usually consider to be “dates”, and he pays for me.
- He has been calling me beautiful and gorgeous a lot and he gives me random unexpected compliments much more often.
- The other day I awoke from a nap we were taking and he was holding me in his arms and just watching me sleep.
- He even mentioned that his mom (yes, I met his parents, but in a “just-friends” situation) thinks I am really pretty and that I seem like quite a catch, and he regards his parent’s opinions very highly.
- He also always makes comments about how he could see us being married in the future, but he does it in a joking way of course.
- He even wants to do more couple-ish things together, like cook and learn more about each other’s lives.
Basically, I feel like these are all signs of him falling for me as more than a FWB, but am I just fooling myself? Could he just be doing this because he is single and bored/lonely? Even though he pays for me now, he has never said anything about it being a “date”, and he has never tried to hold my hand or kiss me in public.
I just don’t get why he is trying to be so much more involved with me if he knows he could still hook up with me without putting in the time and monetary investment. So I am pretty much just confused about whether he actually is developing feelings for me or if I am just getting my hopes up for no reason.
Thanks,
Hopeful But Confused
Dear Hopeful,
What jumps out at me immediately from your letter is the fact that you obviously have strong feelings for this guy and hope that the two of you can become a couple. I wonder why you ever thought that “attractive and fun” was perfect hookup material, rather than relationship material? You say that you just were looking for a FWB, but I don’t understand what the benefits of that arrangement were. If you really weren’t interested in a relationship, you wouldn’t have developed feelings for him, right? But it sounds like you fell for him anyway, which is what usually happens in FWB – someone catches feelings. Sometimes both people do, but it’s much more common for one person to get hurt.
I agree with your perception that his recent actions appear to signal increased interest in spending time together, and a more emotionally intimate relationship. It may well be that he does like you and wants to make something work. There are several things I think you need to be concerned about:
- Is he truly over his ex?
- I share your worry that he is lonely and adrift right now, enjoying your company. Is he just biding his time with his great FWB until he falls for someone new, or is he trying to make this something more?
- He has relied on you for support, both emotional and academic. Does he feel that he owes you in some way? Can it be that he has picked up on your feelings for him, and is responding in a way that pleases you?
One of the most common mistakes women make is that they read too much into the time they spend with a guy. A guy can spend a whole weekend with you, cook meals together, laugh together, be passionate – do all the things that feel like being in love to a woman – and have absolutely zero emotional investment. If he is in a “no relationship” mindset, or views you as FWB material only, he can enjoy your company and the sex without any worries that you might get hurt, because these are the terms you both agreed to.
It’s time to stop guessing and ask him directly. You don’t need to make a big confrontation out of it, you could just say something like, “You’ve really been acting different lately, what’s up?” to get the conversation going. Because you like him, you need to find out asap whether the feeling is mutual. If not, you need to get out right away.
There’s an article in The Atlantic today about a new study of FWB relationships, Romance Trumps Friends with Benefits. (H/T: Stuart Schneiderman). Researchers from Harvard, Syracuse and Purdue conducted an online survey of college females, half in FWB and half in traditional romantic relationships. Their findings:
| Friends with Benefits | Traditional Romantic | |
| Total # sexual partners | 6.4 | 1.9 |
| Frequency of sex | Lower | Higher |
| Non-sexual time spent | Less | More |
| Satisfaction with relationship | Lower | Higher |
| Comfort expressing needs and desires | Lower | Higher |
| Comfort setting relationship boundaries | Lower | Higher |
| Discussion of other sexual partners | Higher | Lower |
| Condom use | Higher | Lower |
I don’t find most of these findings surprising, but am particularly struck by the difference in sexual history between women in FWBs and women who are dating. This suggests, at least to me, that the casual, no-strings nature of a friends with benefits arrangement leads to faster dissolution of those relationships and increased likelihood of entering additional casual relationships, leading to partner counts for women more than triple the women in relationships.
If you were cut out for casual it wouldn’t matter, but you are not satisfied, you want a traditional, romantic relationship. So why don’t you get one? If not with this guy, with some other guy. As long as “attractive and fun” doesn’t mean “unavailable,” there are many other guys out there.
Like so many women who try to do the FWB thing, you’ve found that it doesn’t really work. We are not meant to relate to other human beings in a strictly sexual way. We want emotional intimacy. I recommend that you not settle for anything less in future.
Hope this helps,
Susan
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@SW
Bingo. That was my takeaway from the post on Smiler. Add to that the number of college students who are already married in college, and the “hookup” pathway to relationships get smaller and smaller. I’m still unclear on how anybody, man or woman, can know that a relationship has an expiration date going in. Unless there’s malice aforethought. But there doesn’t appear to be a revolution brewing amongst college guys to avoid commitment. Or marriage, for that matter. Jimmy’s point that *every* guy needs the unrestricted mindset in order to be successful in a LTR/marriage… I’ve never met any guy who *did* succeed with that mindset. Value neutral qualities like confidence and assertiveness, I’ve never had a problem with.
This discussion on guys only being interested in high-probability LTRs that lead to marriage got me thinking… should women (1/2 of the equation) in the same situation not invest sexually whatsoever in a guy unless he puts forth an olive branch? After all, as soon as she does put out and makes the investment, the ball is in his court for the most part. Restricted guys can certainly be trusted on that one… but unrestricted?
Well, I think you can chalk some of it up to cultural stereotypes, rather than academic rigor. Many students (especially rich, UMC students) feel more comfortable heading to Europe because it feels like home. Which, to me, should not be the point of studying abroad. I once had a discussion with a friend who studied in the UK, and she said she wouldn’t be able to study in Latin America because she couldn’t survive without all the pleasures and conveniences of industrialized society.
Japan, of course, is industrialized, but this brings me to my point about language. People take one look at Japanese or other East Asian languages and freak out, while they know that plenty of Europeans speak English. Another detail indicating that people will want to study abroad in a place that reminds them of home.
@JP
Excellent questions. Susan’s often pointed it out, but the Census Bureau says the median age of first marriage for college-educated AND non-college educated is the same: 28.
What median never tells you, and that’s why it’s less useful in discussions, is how long had the couple been exclusive prior to the wedding? For many post-college couples, that could be anywhere from 1 to 5 years, which means they *weren’t* celibate or sleeping around all that time. And many forgo marriage and opt for permanent cohabitation, which doesn’t appear to increase their risk of divorce…
Many students (especially rich, UMC students) feel more comfortable heading to Europe because it feels like home
If that were the case, you would expect to see a lot more people going to Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Finland, Norway…hell, Germany is pretty low on the list and I think that more white people in America are of German descent than anything else. But, girls do not fantasizer about German lovers and German romances.
The UK being number 1 is easy…it is one of the closest to America and they speak English. I get that.
Well, English is understood pretty well in Tokyo and, if your theory was right, China would not be #5 on the list. Now, my guess is that almost all of the people going to China are in Business/Trade/Finance/etc. and that they are disproportionally male.
@ Megaman
Friends-with-benefits arrangements are very common in college:
http://www.livescience.com/5391-survey-finds-friends-benefits-common.html
I don’t know much about study abroad programs, but I do know it’s very hard to go if you’re STEM or pre-med, because most of the programs don’t feature enough of those courses, and kids wind up losing the opportunity to fulfill important requirements.
IME STEM students want to come to USA (UK second choice) because all the good science is done here or so is the perception, for the rest of majors Europe is the first choice. I have no idea about China never meet anyone that wanted to go there voluntarily the language barrier was a real problem, just my two cents.
The rest is immature gender frustrations or not realizing that there was incompatibility on a daily basis.
Or not knowing how to negotiate differences? Hubby and I had two of the compatibility items list and we make it work,. It also helps that having to share my life with 5 other people that were very different helps to separate making a relationship work from ejecting you cannot quit your bloodlines no with a good enough reason. Maybe that is the part of people looking for excitement on relationships are so eager to jump ship when the partner doesn’t provide it comes from? I would think being 100% compatible makes things boring really quickly, YMMV
So many girls want to go their and hang out in the warm weather and have a great romance.
In what universe is Spain warm? I had a friend that describe it as cold hell and the Spaniards smoke 24/7 not very attractive men in general terms, YMMV.
There’s a wise saying that goes: “far from the eyes, far from the heart”.
My hubby, then boyfriend, used to say: absence makes the heart grow fonder he told me that when I got rejected for a tourist Visa to come and visit him thus our future visits were in danger and I told him I would understand if he gave up in the relationship. We have almost 8 years together now.
But, would you have found it unreasonable if your BF had said to you, “oh, we are not going to have regular sex for the next 3-6 months? Oh, ok, well, best of luck”.
You lack imagination there, There are planes to visit, there is cyber sex phone sex if you are fancy you can have an epistolary torrid sexual connection… Also there is the cost benefit analysis, if you have a great woman that you trust and truly sexually desire you waiting for her to come back after a few months sounds better than going back to dating hell, I would guess for some men the chances of scoring even if is with crazy bitches on those months is better than waiting it out, but this really depends on dating environment, YMMV.
Admittedly I know nothing about national rates, but Denmark was one of the most popular destinations at my school.
Tons of people go to Italy, France, Greece, Spain… all European countries.
Australia is also big… not a European country, but it falls into the same category in my mind. Industrialized country, English is the primary language.
Yeah I’ll give you that. Out of curiosity, do you have a link for the top countries list? It’s not that I doubt your source, I’m just curious about which countries are the most popular.
Tons of people go to Italy, France, Greece, Spain… all European countries. Right. Romantic Countries.
Australia is relatively low on the list, but that will be changing soon.
Yeah I’ll give you that. Out of curiosity, do you have a link for the top countries list?
I did have it, however, I do need to run for a while. I’ll try to remember later.
@Mega
That wasn’t my point. I said guys need to have the ability to secure hookups (whether they actually intend to follow through or not) if they want to be competitive in the majority of college social scenes.
After college can be different. But no guy in his right mind wants to wait till after college to finally start seeing success.
Sure. That would certainly be my advice.
@Anacoana: “Or not knowing how to negotiate differences? Hubby and I had two of the compatibility items list and we make it work”
Of course, this not a perfect list, but a good start. And I agree that perfect compatibilities with that list often make for boring, rational and unimaginative couples.
“In what universe is Spain warm?”.
In the “European universe”. Based on the anual yearly temperatures, Spain, or, rather, southern Spain (specifically Andalusia), is the warmest place on the continent.
“My hubby, then boyfriend, used to say: absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
To each his or her own saying….and experiences. Your husband’s saying turned out to be true just like mine turned out to be.
@Damien
“Thank you, that what I meant. But Loks paranoia is telling.”
Interesting, so you feel the need to deny my experiences because you don’t like them? Or some other reason?
Should others feel free to deny the existence of yours, mine or others experience based upon no other reasoning than that they don’t like them? (Admittedly a large problem here.)
Ted D, I always looked for “forever” relationships and went into them thinking thusly. But guess what? Life isn’t perfect. Men lie, cheat and do bad things, too.
As Susan said, we also get our hearts broken. It took me years to get over some things. Do you honestly think every college girl goes into a relationship expecting it would end? The hope is that it wouldn’t end.
@Mega
“should women (1/2 of the equation) in the same situation not invest sexually whatsoever in a guy unless he puts forth an olive branch?”
Yes and no.
Not giving anything while expecting everything ain’t going to fly for either sex.
A balance of give and take is required.
My quibble is that the balance of the relationships being discussed are heavily skewed in the woman’s favour. If the guy is happy with the result, no problem.
But since the 80% are not getting together, something in that compromise needs to be changed to meet the needs of both groups.
@Mega
“For many post-college couples, that could be anywhere from 1 to 5 years, which means they *weren’t* celibate or sleeping around all that time. And many forgo marriage and opt for permanent cohabitation, which doesn’t appear to increase their risk of divorce…”
Do you have any hard data on what % of people are in relationships in college and the years in between there and marriage?
@Ramble
I know quite a few guys who went to those countries (fun ones) back in the day as well.
I think the separation was along liberal arts vs. social & core sciences.
A lot of business guys went to the UK. Couple science guys (though much rarer). I don’t know if they do this in the states but undergrad sciences here do internships in between 3rd-4th year.
Some of those involve working in some pretty distant places though wouldn’t fall under studying abroad (as they are paid, no school, working full time).
@Hope
“Yes. I’ve never even met a girl who wanted a relationship that was just for “status and validation.” What a rubbish thing to say about all women.”
This is not what I meant.
@ Mike C:
“This is the second time you’ve used that term “make my SO”. First time I ignored it, but I am curious now if this is really the way you see it…that your SO is someone you can boss around and make do stuff.”
I absolutely do not view my boyfriend as someone I can just “boss around”. I am sure that dynamic would make me very unhappy.
In this particular case, yes, I did in fact “make” him do it because it was a relationship deal-breaker otherwise, and he was resistant to it. That was a rare instance where I needed to stand my ground and not negotiate.
@ OTC:
HAHA, I had forgotten about that homeless guy!
“Really? Your old position was all men rejected you, and that’s why you were single.”
Lol, yes, that was my old position. It has changed since then.
@ Ramble:
I wanted to study abroad in Beijing, but they didn’t have the Econ courses I needed to continue my major.
@ Passer_By:
“Women, from what I can tell, don’t tend to develop that strong sense of protectiveness and obligation to men they are in a relationship with. As always, exceptions exist (that was for SayWhaat’s benefit so she won’t hunt me down and kill me).”
Lol. I obviously disagree, but here, have a hug. ((Passer_By))
On random encounter with a girl who followed the boy after graduation.
I leased an apartment from a girl who was moving to another state to be with her college boyfriend. She sold me her desk, tables, chairs and bed for cheap, as she was traveling light.
It was apparently a lucky place to be for love, because shortly after I moved in, I met my husband. I then also moved far away to be with him. But I kept the table. It’s now in our formal living room.
I don’t know, do they have good exchange programs? As Olive mentioned, Copenhagen is a very popular destination, even during the midwinter when there is no daylight. Another factor is language – not all of the programs are in English. Many students go abroad to perfect their language skills in a second language – again, as Olive described.
For this reason, England, Australia and New Zealand are all popular destinations as well. My daughter, whose language was Italian (due to family connection) chose Florence (just an hour from my brother). The curriculum was very artsy fartsy, but the lifestyle was not a partying one at all. In fact, the girls stopped going to local bars after repeatedly being approached by Italian men asking them to fuck like an American. My daughter also had her ass slapped by strangers half a dozen times while walking in broad daylight.
I think you’re overplaying the “Gidget Goes to Rome” angle.
Most of the programs are not at foreign universities, but at programs set up by American colleges. For example, in Florence the largest and most popular program is an NYU program – they have their own campus.
@Megaman
Ha, that is an excellent question! Is it reasonable for a woman to say, “I hope to marry the man I give my virginity to. Do you see us on that path? Are you willing to commit to me now?”
@Ramble
Let’s be honest. Germans still suffer an enormous taint from WWII. I’m sure it affects tourism very dramatically, not just study abroad programs. I do know that Munich Oktoberfest is a popular destination for students studying abroad all over Europe
Yes.
I am not sure if this is supposed to be a serious question.
From a post I wrote on FWB, which I believe references the same study INTJ cites:
So what does the data say? Who’s happy, who’s unhappy with the status quo? A survey of the scholarship on FWBR reveals the following:
60% of college students have experienced at least one FWBR.
10% of these relationships evolve into romances.
33% remain friends after halting the sexual part of their friendship.
25% end both the sexual relationship and the friendship over time.
47% of participants in FWBRs believe in “deep love,” while 60% of non-participants do.
Do young women and men experience FWBRs in the same way? The research shows that there are profound differences between women and men in their answers to the following questions:
Is your current FWBR an emotional relationship? F yes: 63%, M yes: 38%
Is your partner more emotionally involved than you are? F yes: 14%, M yes: 44%
Are you more friends than lovers? F yes: 84%, M yes: 15%
Do you wish the two of you had sex more often? F yes: 14%, M yes: 44%
Would you like to have more than one FWBR going at the same time? F yes: 5%, M yes: 35%
Clearly, women are more focused on the friends aspect of the relationship, while men are more concerned with the benefits. In addition, researchers have studied how FWBRs differ in their relational dynamics from platonic cross-sex friendships:
There is a prevalent emotional rule in FWBRs stating that both parties must avoid falling in love, and must work to minimize jealousy.
Openness occurs less naturally in FWBRs than in platonic friendships. However, a continuous process of negotiation is required to assure clarity for both parties.
FWBRs include less supportive communication, including giving assurances and advice.
The sexual part of the friendship is often kept secret.
The sex in FWBRs is characterized by less passion than romantic sex.
FWBs often try to spend time with mutual friends to avoid focusing too heavily on sexual activity.
There is more emphasis on the role of equity in the relationship, i.e., who has the “upper hand.”
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/02/11/hookinguprealities/are-women-cut-out-to-be-friends-with-benefits/
@ADBG
It was indeed! And I think that 95% of men would consider that a “psycho” question from a college female.
Actually, Down Under is not that popular. However, I imagine that has to do with a smaller population relative to Europe and the cost of getting there and back. And, it is becoming more popular.
I am not really playing it that much. What I am saying is that girls are never going to be that hip on going to Asia where, in general, they do not find the men to be that attractive. Denmark, while not sunny, has the tallest (and one of the blondest) populations in the world.
And, I don’t blame them.
And they also advertise specifically to girls. That was also in one of the articles. I am guessing they have an easier time selling Italy than Japan.
Right, it has cachet.
Olive, here is the link: http://www.iie.org/Who-We-Are/News-and-Events/Press-Center/Press-Releases/2011/2011-11-14-Open-Doors-Study-Abroad
On making relationships work, I think this goes back into unrealistic collegiate expectations…
Drawing on personal experiences, from SO’s family: Her brother was dating a girl at college. They graduated this past year, and immediately started having questions about the future. He wanted to move out to Colorado, she wanted to move out East. This was, of course, after his dream of moving to a foreign country was dashed.
She was willing to subordinate her wishes to his, as long as they were on a marriage path. He wouldn’t commit to that, so she broke up with him. I feel for the guy, but can’t blame her for that.
He is now working in the area, because that’s where he could find a job. Father is now training to rein in Son’s dreams of extravagant vacations, lots of money, etc, because, hey, Chicago is FREAKIN EXPENSIVE and he isn’t making THAT much.
Ohhhhh, UMC-dreams.
Susan,
I would readily agree with this, and this is because any notion of valuing virginity has been obliterated by our wonderfully intelligent society.
I have said it before, and I will probably say it again, but it is extremely disappointing that American Pie, which is actually a story about young men realizing sex doesn’t matter THAT much, immediately all get laid after learning this important revelation.
The only boy in the group who is NOT a virgin at prom, is still working as a down-trotten temp and living with his mother more than a decade later. And the star of the movie with the best sex life, is the guy with N=1 (I ain’t counting that fuck-up at the start of American Pie 2!)
Lesson learned from American Pie series, though?
FRAT CULTURE IS AWESOME BRO!
Are you more friends than lovers? F yes: 84%, M yes: 15%
“Clearly, women are more focused on the friends aspect of the relationship, while men are more concerned with the benefits. ”
And this is pretty much the entire story of “friends with benefits”.
I’m filing this under “things that should be obvious”.
“Let’s be honest. Germans still suffer an enormous taint from WWII.”
Is this still true for Millennials?
@ Susan
Perfectly reasonable.
@ Susan
There’s already general impression amongst college people that virgins are clingy, so I’m not sure if such a question would change things much. Unfortunately, I think the majority of guys would be scared of such a female, though there are a significant minority of us (much bigger than 5%) who would not care.
The belief itself, I don’t think is unreasonable at all. I think it’s a damn shame most of her peers would call her an idiot or psycho for having it.
My reaction would depend on the context. If it’s the night she meets me? Yeah, I don’t think I’d be interested.
But if we’ve known and qualified each other, I see her as wife material, and she poses that question while also asking for exclusivity in a “Could you honestly see yourself marrying me when we graduate?” way… I wouldn’t find it weird at all.
Thanks Ramble! Interesting stuff (who knew Mexico was #8? I expected it to be a lot lower on the list!).
Haha. My program in Panama was during a spring semester, and it didn’t start until the beginning of March, specifically because the program did not want us to attend Carnival celebrations.
@INTJ
Yes, I’ve read the details of that 125-student survey. Even linked to it in #315.
What’s your point?
Jimmy, gotta say, unassailable frame. You’ve parried quite a bit of strawmen and ad-homs in this thread. I’ve learned a lot.
@Loks
No, this isn’t correct IMO. I’ve disagreed with Susan on this before. It’s alarmist and not supported by the facts. Other than maybe a brief period of time during freshman year of college, there is no age cohort where 20% of the people are sleeping around randomly to their hearts’ content while the other 80% are totally single, alone, and miserable. Restricted couples get together all the time. They break up a lot, too, but I don’t subscribe to the perfectionist fallacy.
Which kind of relates to:
Yes, I have *some* hard data on that. And I’ve cited bits of it in a few discussions, and emailed the juiciest stuff to Susan for review. It’s difficult to get a complete picture of college and post-college relationships (i.e. quantity, quality, duration).
Suffice to say… there’s a BIG math problem that hasn’t been explained to my satisfaction. I’ve cobbled together various bits of data from Susan’s posts and my own limited research time:
- 15% of college students at 4-year universities ARE married!
- 15% of college graduates met their current spouses in college (but married sometime later).
- 30% to 50% of college students report being in committed, romantic, monogamous, non-marital relationships (possibly 25% in LDRs). This is the statistic that’s all over the map!
- 8% of college students report forming a relationship via “hooking up” (and 6% via a FWB).
Based on these numbers, “hooking up” (a useless term BTW) *cannot* be the primary way college students form monogamous relationships. I could provide the sources, but is it really necessary? We’re just talkin’ here…
@Jimmy
All guys need to follow a single unrestricted script? I understand that a lot advice is dispensed because “what worked for me works for all”, but really? The presumption that all college relationships are fluid and short-term in nature (i.e. non-monogamous, or with an expiration date) and therefore require “casual” sensibilities to even get off the ground… well, good luck marketing that to the 80%.
It’s strange, why some guys who frequent HUS, the mission of which is to find an alternative to the perceived status quo, end up arguing in favor of the status quo…
@ Megaman:
This stat used to be 12%. Has it gone down in recent years?
@SayWhaat
No, it’s the same stat from before, and the only one I’ve seen on the actual success rate of “hooking up”, which is better than nothing (the study, I mean). 12% of college students form relationships this way, but only 70% of college students “hook up” at all. The rest opt out completely. Therfore: 12% of 70% = 8.4%. The same goes for FWBs… pretty high failure rate all around.
@ Megaman
Lokland’s point still stands, considering that 36% of college students report currently being in a friends-with-benefits situation.
@INTJ
Yes, I’m aware of that survey, as I stated earlier. It had a sample size of 125 college students. I’ve got a survey from the American College Health Association from 2010 that had a sample size of 29,372 college students, and 42% of them reported being in committed relationships. The rest reported “single” (no other detail). Susan’s also cited the National College Health Assessment from 2010 that had a sample size of 28,900 college students, in which 34% reported an N = 0 and 41% reported an N = 1. We’ve been over all this stuff before.
Again, what is *your* point?
Dude, of course there’s no answer that’s going to work for everyone. I’ve never claimed that to be the case. Nothing is universal.
I’ve spent a lot of time on quite a few college campuses for a good number of years (too long, actually… grad school can’t end soon enough). I’m just relating my experiences and observations to what I think is the most effective course of action for the largest number of guys.
I could be right, I could be wrong. Just sharing my experience and honest opinion like everyone else does at this place.
@Olive
I’ve been thinking about the study abroad situation, and I’d like to clarify, since I didn’t have any intention of picking on you.
Admittedly, when I think of studying abroad, I think of the vacation/partying/social aspect of it, because most people I know who have participated did it for those reasons. I don’t know a single person who actually benefitted their career prospects by doing it (although I’m sure there are a number of people like you who do).
My original thought was… if I’m dating a girl for a decent amount of time, and she tells me she wants to take a semester abroad, what I hear is “Going on an extended vacation sounds like more fun and is more important to me right now than what I have here with you.” It would definitely make me question her investment.
I think there are plenty of situations where LDRs are worth the effort. But one person bailing so they can have some extra fun isn’t one of them.
@Jimmy
Well, you did say “hooking up” was the [only] pathway to relationships, and restricted guys ought to learn to “hook up”. And you didn’t mention any alternatives, other than FWBs. Sounds kind of universal to me, in a cookie-cutter sort of way.
The belief itself, I don’t think is unreasonable at all. I think it’s a damn shame most of her peers would call her an idiot or psycho for having it.
Most men were freaked out by that conversation back in the Pleistocene when I was dating.
Jimmy,
.
No worries, I didn’t feel picked on, just wanted to offer an alternate perspective. Having worked in the study abroad office at my college, I know a lot of kids go abroad just to party, so I certainly understand where you got the impression that studying abroad is not a serious academic endeavor. But as I was saying to Ramble, so much depends on program and location. To me, in order to make the “extended vacation” judgment, you have to look at what’s on the table first. NASAEALT (Not All Study Abroad Experiences Are Like That)
Hope – “Ted D, I always looked for “forever” relationships and went into them thinking thusly.”
I fully believe that indeed YOU were always looking for a “forever” relationship.
“Do you honestly think every college girl goes into a relationship expecting it would end?”
Well if we are talking about relationships with an “expiration date”, then yeah, I’m talking about women and men getting into relationships they know will end.
If these are actual attempts that fail? Like you said, life happens. But we were discussing college relationships where one or both parties FROM THE START already believe it wont last. So I ask again, why bother?
@JP
When my son was in middle school, a German family moved in to the area and their daughter Frederika enrolled in 8th grade. Towards the end of the first week, a group of boys stopped her in the hallway and demanded to know what her grandfather and great grandfather had been doing during WWII. They were disciplined, of course. The point is, they were well aware, though they’d been born in 1987. My sense is that reading Anne Frank’s Diary and studying the Holocaust has ensured that Millennials know at least the basics of the history of WWII.
@Ted
Actually, the lion’s share of the conversation seems to have been taken up by the argument that MEN should avoid relationships with women who come in with an expiration date in mind. In fact, until I mentioned the opposite sex in #751, I can’t recall any other guys even bringing them up in this context.
Again (4th or 5th time I’ve wondered this aloud), how anybody can know there’s an expiration date in advance without possessing ESP is beyond me. It’s a completely contrived thought experiment. Hence the opinion by a number of guys (not you, Ted) that FWB or some variation of it is the only way to go. Unrestricted advice from unrestricted guys… makes perfect sense to me!
Arranged marriage FTW! This is basically the perfect first date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC9iRsoHS04&t=12s
You know the goal is marriage, so you get the dealbreakers out of the way before you get emotionally invested in each other.
“Again (4th or 5th time I’ve wondered this aloud), how anybody can know there’s an expiration date in advance without possessing ESP is beyond me.”
Because you aren’t really interested in being with the girl long term, but you are unable to figure a way to deal with it.
I got rid of two unwanted relationships by graduating, first in high school, second in college.
And yes, I realize that this was an immature and bad way to deal with these situations.
Megaman – “Actually, the lion’s share of the conversation seems to have been taken up by the argument that MEN should avoid relationships with women who come in with an expiration date in mind.”
Slight difference, but same concept.
“Hence the opinion by a number of guys (not you, Ted) that FWB or some variation of it is the only way to go. Unrestricted advice from unrestricted guys… makes perfect sense to me!”
Gotcha. I don’t know because I’m not in college, but if many/most folks are pairing up with the idea in mind that it won’t last, I really just don’t see the point. Perhaps some people really feel the need to have the relationship “slot” filled with someone, but doing so without any intention of making it permanent (not saying that from the word go marriage is a must, but that it is at least a real possibility) just strikes me as a waste of time.
I didn’t do Ivy League, and in fact spent the first part of my college days in a local Community College. While there, I was involved in a LTR that I had hoped would last until I was able to financially support starting a family. I think about half of the folks I talked to while there were doing the same. But, I also suspect that the attitudes of kids going to community college is not very similar to your average Yale student. In fact, a good chunk of my fellow students were older (mid 20′s) people trying to do better than working at the local grocery store.
I’d guess that a student looking at graduation from an Ivy League school is planning some major life changes, while blue collar kids going to public schools are just hoping to find a better paying job nearby. So, the whole “setting down roots in a new area” thing is NOT a huge concern. In fact, being as we have so many good schools here, I know tons of kids that aren’t expecting a major geographical move after graduation. (it helps that Pittsburgh has lots of medical and technical jobs).
The only students I talk to are locals, so I’ll admit I have very little insight into what the visiting students are thinking post graduation. But, knowing you are likely to stay around probably makes things easier on the relationship front.
Towards the end of the first week, a group of boys stopped her in the hallway and demanded to know what her grandfather and great grandfather had been doing during WWII.
I am curious, do you think they would have done the same for Russian and Japanese immigrants as well?
I am actually kind of kidding, I can already guess the answer.
“I am curious, do you think they would have done the same for Russian and Japanese immigrants as well?”
Russian immigrants were always celebrated as escapees from the Evil Soviet Union, so this question doesn’t make sense in the way you are trying to present it.
Hahaha! One of my good friends is half-German, half-Japanese. She studied Italian in high school. Her nickname was “Axis of Evil.”
Hahaha! One of my good friends is half-German, half-Japanese. She studied Italian in high school. Her nickname was “Axis of Evil.”
I hate people who feel the need to be story toppers, but…
I worked with a girl who was Italian on her mothers side and German and Japanese on her Fathers. When my manager learned this, he immediately blurted out, “Holy shit, you’re the Axis!”.
Also, and I know this is not the point, but her nickname would have been better suited if she was Iranian, Iraqi and North Korean.
Russian immigrants were always celebrated as escapees from the Evil Soviet Union, so this question doesn’t make sense in the way you are trying to present it.
That is sorta my point. The Soviets killed more people than the Nazis did. And it was not like Hitler was popularly elected (he never did better than 32% of the popular vote). I understand that these things are apples and oranges, but the “Main Stream” has been considerably more invested in demonizing the Nazis (supposedly Right Wing) than the Communists/Leftists.
well, the Russians did get invaded by the Germans, not vice versa, so that does to some extent explain people’s reluctance to blame WW2 on them.
well, the Russians did get invaded by the Germans, not vice versa, so that does to some extent explain people’s reluctance to blame WW2 on them.
I am not trying to absolve the Germans of anything, but, shine a light on how much attention is paid to how evil the Nazis were and, by comparison, how little was paid tot eh Communists. Heck, just think of how many movies were made about how evil the Nazis were relative to hoe evil the Communists were.
When The Big Book of Communism was originally printed, it caused quite a stir amongst many a prominent French intellectual because of it’s estimation of the number of people killed by the Soviets.
Personally, I have no problem seeing the Nazis, Soviets, Maoists and Khmer Rouge is fairly similar light, but, for many people, the Nazis need to be the biggest, baddest most evil thing that existed in the 20th century (with Richard Nixon being a close second).
“I am not trying to absolve the Germans of anything, but, shine a light on how much attention is paid to how evil the Nazis were and, by comparison, how little was paid tot eh Communists. Heck, just think of how many movies were made about how evil the Nazis were relative to hoe evil the Communists were.”
That’s because Russia was on the side of the U.S. during WWII.
They were one of the Allies and *won* WWII.
People had warm cuddly feelings toward Stalin because he was “one of us”.
People really didn’t like Hitler there at the end. Although there was lots of love for him during the 1930′s.
History is written by the victors, remember?
@Ramble
They were Jewish boys, so no.
They were Jewish boys, so no.
Oh, God, I love it.
@Ted
Yeah, I’m in some agreement with you there. However, if both the guy and girl are above board on that arrangement, I see absolutely no problem with serial monogamy like that. Not “casual” or emotionless, but something less than marriage. I’d probably have opted for something like that had the opportunity arisen. I don’t mean a new SO every 6 months, more like one for several years…
I’m guessing a tiny fraction of freshman are even thinking about marriage when they arrive on campus. By the time graduation rolls around, 30% of university students are either already married or have met their future spouse. There’s a definite change in priorities, and it’s nothing to sneeze at.
I just love the irony of unrestricted guys popping in @ HUS always with the same advice: Here’s what “works” for most guys. If you want a LTR or anything at all, try “hooking up” and see what happens. When in doubt, just “hook up”. That kind of “lane changing” is what women are suspected of and castigated for all the time around here!
“Perhaps some people really feel the need to have the relationship “slot” filled with someone, but doing so without any intention of making it permanent just strikes me as a waste of time.”
The thing with having the relationship “slot” filled is that you are no longer “relationship-starved” and can better relax to find someone you actually want to be with long-term.
@Megastrawman
Maybe you’ll understand the third time I say it…
Most guys will find it difficult to be sexually competitive in most college social scenes if they don’t cultivate the ability to hook up. That doesn’t mean they have to follow through on it, but having the ability to hook up (i.e. having options) will generally yield much better results than relying on old-fashioned dating. You hear girls all the time mention how they want their guy to have options but choose not to exercise them.
I’m not saying it’s the only way. I’m not saying it’s the morally superior way. I’m saying, based on my experience, it’s the most strategic way. I honestly wish it wasn’t, but I’ve learned to be pragmatic.
It would probably be wise for women to resume castigating that kind of behavior again. I’d certainly advise it. But actions and results show me they don’t have much interest in doing so.
@Jimmy
Clearly it doesn’t work, as the success rate is abysmal (12% for only 8% of college students). FWB is even worse than that. You guys must have poor short-term memory, because Susan’s demonstrated quite thoroughly that most MEN in college don’t even LIKE the “hookup” scene. They actually prefer to go on DATES with women (78% in one survey). And they want GFs, not sub-par substitutes. What’s the value of such advice to guys, most of whom are restricted, who’re seeking serious relationships? Zilch, IMO.
The summary I gave in #791 suggests that there are too many college couples for “hooking up” to account for all or even most of them. It doesn’t even add up to 1/4. So how are all these folks getting together?
Again, with a terrible success rate if the goal is a LTR. Had you actually paid any lip service to other methods, I’d readily cop to the straw man argument. But your advice always leans unrestricted. Broken record! If you endorse no alternatives to “hooking up” or FWB, it’s reasonable to conclude that you don’t believe in any. With all the caricature and derision of the “subhuman beta male” around here, I think it’s only fair to point that out. After all: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
BTW, this “casual”, NSA, FWB only route as preparation for marriage… forget “lane changing”, that’s like pulling a U-turn in the middle of the highway. Any smart woman who’s looking for a husband is going to consider that a major red flag. Believe me, I know. If I had had that kind of resume, my now-wife would’ve absolutely DQ’d me toot sweet…
Pretty sure it’s 12% of hookups turn into relationships, not 12% or 8% of the population finds SO’s through hookups. We’re arguing different things here.
My argument is the nice guy from sociology class who tries to initiate things by asking girls out to coffee (or worse, dinner) will have far less than 12% of his attempts end successfully.
Look, I’m not gonna disagree that it’s in a girl’s best interest to avoid that. But I don’t see actual behavior playing out that way in real life. Certainly not on college campuses.
@Jimmy
No, see #793 and #794 above. That’s the only statistic we have on college students’ success rate at “hooking up”. You think 12% is high? Not the best sales pitch…
It’s ludicrous to presume that the 15% of university students who are already married got to that point via “sex with a stranger” IMO…
Again, I haven’t been in college for about 10 years, and you apparently know the social scene like the back of your hand. And I’ve been paying attention to your excellent strategic advice for some time: women will abuse their power in relationships (you won’t, of course); an alpha/unrestricted mindset is the offset to that; FBs are better than GFs; women treat “beta” males like lepers; marriage is a zero-sum chess match. Pretty cynical stuff, which is perfectly fine. But it’d have some credence if you actually had a SO or wife to show for it!
@Megastrawman
You just love twisting my words. I never said anything about a high or good success rate. I simply said from my anecdotes, other methods seem to have an even worse success rate.
Once again, I never said people need to go have sex with a stranger, or that most relationships start from sex with a stranger. I certainly wouldn’t recommend it.
I said in a college environment, not having the ABILITY (and I’ve repeatedly said that ability doesn’t have to be acted upon, just understood that its there) to hook up (which doesn’t always have to be sex) will place a guy at a serious disadvantage. Not one that can’t be overcome, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
Just curious how is that 15% married statistic counted? Does it include grad students? Students older that 22? Older than 25? Not saying it isn’t true, but 15% is way higher than what I’ve seen in the 18-22 demographic in all the schools I’ve been to.
And now for your intentionally obtuse characterizations of my arguments:
I think power tends to corrupt anyone. If someone’s ever going to be on the short end of the stick, I’d rather it not be me. I have no interest in being a martyr. And yeah, I trust myself more than I trust others because I have control of my actions and zero control of theirs. Pretty basic.
I think it’s been pretty well observed that alphas are the few who turn the gender power dynamic on its head.
I said FBs are better than fake relationships with expiration dates. I’ve never been against serious relationships.
Oh please… I’ve noted that betas have a tough go of things in today’s world, but I’ve never said they were mistreated. Frankly, I completely understand why most girls react to them the way they do.
Susan herself has agreed with me that every partnership in life (romantic or otherwise) always has one party who has at least 51% of the power and calls the shots. Otherwise nothing would ever get done. That doesn’t mean it has to be a contentious relationship.
Given that I’ve lived, socialized, and regularly traveled to college campuses and college towns for about 8 years now… I think I’m at least entitled to have an opinion. And you rag on INTJ for being dismissive. Funny stuff.
Haha,take 2 with the dismissiveness that you supposedly dislike so much. For what it’s worth, I’m about to graduate grad school, move to god knows where, and haven’t had the desire to get into a relationship with an expiration date. Glad you take an interest, though.
@Jimmy
With all due respect Megaman has a point you (generally you) praise:
“I know everything there is to know about success in the SMP” But then when asked you have achieved with your method and “wisdom” you say the same vacuous response of the feminist “I feel in a better position to have what I want” aka I feel empowered… feelings are not results.
I know that there is a good argument about how the fact that people is married/pair up doesn’t mean they are happy but till we have a better instrument to measure real success (asides from getting laid like tile by a variety of women), having a relationship seems good enough for the moment, YMMV.
@Jimmy
Thank you for your responses, I appreciate them!
For example? As I commented earlier, you never mention any other methods, only that they “don’t work”. How would you know? One might expect advice like yours to have at minimum some anecdotal results. Where are all the successful LTRs and marriages that started out by “hooking up”? I knew of one such relationship back in college. They did get married, and divorced a couple of years later.
Conversely, we’ve got a lot of positive results from people right here @ HUS (mostly women, but some men) who’ve followed very different kinds advice. You could do an informal poll to see “what has worked”, and my sense is “hookup up” would be at the bottom of the list.
I’d actually been meaning to ask you about this, given your extensive (anecdotal) knowledge of college life:
U.S. Department of Education
National Center for Education Statistics
http://nces.ed.gov/
4-Year Institutions (Public and Private Non-Profit):
- 9.3 million undergraduates enrolled, 12% of whom are married
- 2.6 million graduate students enrolled, 40% of whom are married
Not included are community college and for-profit schools. All age groups are included, and the highest marriage rates are in the 24-29 cohort. Nevertheless, that’s 2.2 million married folks at the university level. Very significant evidence *against* the “hookup” hypothesis. Especially in grad school, where you’ve been for X number of years. Certainly you’ve come across a bunch of married college students? ‘Cause 2.2 million is a hell of a lot of young people to dismiss as outliers.
Mathematically, it’s impossible for “hooking up” to be the most common and successful method, since only 8% of college students make it work. And it’s doubtful very many of those relationships make it to the altar. There are too many existing couples that MUST have been formed in some other way.
No, that gentleman is dismissive of the facts. There’s the big difference: I wasn’t questioning your right to voice an opinion (no-brainer), unqualified as it may be. I was questioning your reasons for peddling unrestricted advice @ HUS, that’s all. Who’s the target audience, really? Again, this is a strange place to argue FOR the “hookup scene”, since Susan’s mission is to circumnavigate it…
Hmmm, unvarnished truth? Never mind, it’s your life. It’s also quite possible that the advice you live by isn’t particularly conducive to forming a serious relationship to begin with.
PS: My wife wrapped up graduate school a few years ago before we tied the knot. But while she was going through the program, she never thought our relationship had an expiration date or was a hindrance to her personal development. I guess you can blame it on all that boring, restricted advice that “doesn’t work”…
@Jimmy
Is this more specific advice? Because it isn’t very specific. More like eeny, meeny, miny, mo for married folks. I’m sure every couple sits down and pencils out an agreement assigning a specific % of power and authority over each other. My advice for you when you do start dating women seriously is to lead off with this disclaimer: I’m looking for a wife. Beyond that, I won’t promise commitment, exclusivity, monogamy, or anything else. And if you are wife-material, I also want 51% of the power and control. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of takers!
Again, I may not have a clue WRT all the dynamics of the unrestricted college scene, but I’m not sure you know much about domestic harmony and married life. After all, I believe you originally described it as a chess match, the point of which is to force one’s opponent to submit, or completely wipe her off the board (except for the King). I don’t recall Susan using that jaundiced analogy…
@Ana
If that’s how it comes off, then there’s definitely a miscommunication. I’m essentially coming from a standpoint of “I’m actively involved in the environment Susan describes. I interact with her target market on a daily basis. Here’s what I see and experience…” nothing, more, nothing less. Just sharing my opinions.
I’ll be the first to admit I’ve become a lot more picky through the years. Not being crazy about the prospects at the moment + being worked like crazy in grad school + an impending move to an unknown location isn’t the best recipe for a lasting relationship, and I recognize that. So I’ve used my time for more productive things.
But I don’t think that discredits any of my opinions. I don’t think you need to have a facebook official gf/bf to make observations of what’s effective and what’s not so effective in the college SMP. Taking that view would imply that would imply that all your observations, Ana, about the SMP of your home country were invalid until you met your fiancé, which I don’t think is true.
Ok.
1) Asking girls on dates
2) Orbiting
I’m sure they can work in some cases, but I haven’t seen either method work in a college environment for me or anyone I’ve known.
In my time in grad school I’ve known one fellow student who was married (she was older, about 38). That’s it. But my program is mostly people in the 22-25 age range.
Same in undergrad. I knew one student who was married, and she was older (I’d guess 26-28). I haven’t known any students in the 18-22 age range who were married. Maybe it’s a regional/specific school thing, and married students probably cluster at particular schools, cities, etc. I’m sure those numbers are true, but they definitely don’t match my experience.
Props on the snarky backhand you tagged on at the end. High quality stuff.
Bro, I’ve known politicians who weren’t as good at subtly attacking an opponent’s credibility as you are. Mad props, that is some passive-aggressive gold there.
I think you have the wrong guy dude. I’ve never said anything about chess matches. I’ve just said I prefer to be the person with more power in the relationship.
@Jimmy
Only 2 in over 8 years? You’ve literally met 0.00009% of all married college students, when the actual rate is closer to 18% (I stand corrected). Though I didn’t attend grad school, I met about 10 couples during 2 years at my alma mater, one with children, in CA of all places! Methinks you over-generalize WRT successful long-term mating strategies in college. I wouldn’t be surprised if you haven’t met very many monogamous couples who were in love, too. They’re even more numerous than married couples.
I honestly do find that funny, because I hate politics, the truly oldest profession.
And politicians tend to dodge questions and equivocate, like some people around here. No, my style is factual editorializing. I read and digest quite a bit here, and appreciate ALL the time Susan puts in to the various subject matters. HUS is a wealth of information on college life, attitudes, behavior, priorities, etc.
For example:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/11/19/hookinguprealities/men-want-sex-with-girlfriends-not-randoms/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/10/23/whatguyswant/restricted-vs-unrestricted-sociosexuality-what-does-it-mean/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/18/hookinguprealities/the-continued-emergence-of-a-sexual-single-standard/
…most definitely this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/06/hookinguprealities/the-definitive-survey-of-college-students-sexual-behavior-by-gender/
…as well as this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/11/relationshipstrategies/how-to-choose-your-marriage-partner/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/07/05/relationshipstrategies/both-sexes-prefer-fun-and-informal-dates/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/06/20/relationshipstrategies/the-importance-of-dating-part-i/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/16/hookinguprealities/10-reasons-to-date-a-beta-male/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/03/06/hookinguprealities/which-personalities-are-best-for-relationships/
…not to mention this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/02/28/hookinguprealities/sexual-statistics-review-session/
…and this:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/01/06/hookinguprealities/the-sexual-double-standard-cuts-both-ways/
…and full circle:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/10/07/hookinguprealities/89-of-college-students-hate-hookup-culture/
Still with me? Given all that, and contrasting it with the overall tenor of your advice and opinions, I’m just scratching my head. You strike me as a fairly unrestricted, non-monogamous guy who’s never made serious relationships a priority (correct me if I’m wrong). Never have mentioned any SO in your life to my knowledge. Yet you dispense the same rote advice… “hooking up” is the most common and strategically successful method of locking down a LTR in college. Despite no personal results to show for it (not required, but it would help), anecdotal dissatisfaction with the whole scene amongst college students, and research that suggests the success rate of “hooking up” and FWBs couldn’t get much lower.
That’s what I meant by “unqualified”. I fail to see how the majority of single college guys, mostly restricted BTW who prefer real GFs and serious relationships (expiration date or not), can benefit from that kind of stale candy. I wouldn’t call that a straw man argument. I’d call it getting to the heart of the matter. The math is simple: there are too many college couples, married or otherwise, for “hooking up” to be the most common OR successful method. How are all those other couples getting together in your opinion? Inductive reasoning suggests there are better approaches being employed.
Yes, ironically like a dominant Queen on the chessboard. I have a very good memory:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/09/25/politics-and-feminism/squaring-the-circle-on-female-solipsism/comment-page-4/
#552, 560, 564, 568, 589, 593
I first used the analogy in conversation, and you used it to describe how “all” relationships in college begin (clearly not, especially with the married crowd). You then seemed to claim that those chess matches turn into happy, lifelong marriages somehow, at some point. Susan was certainly amused. As was I. The added irony is that, and this comes from some personal experience, relationships that go the distance don’t involve that kind of competition between people who profess to love each other. You might find that out someday…
Nice detective work, I honestly didn’t remember making that analogy. My guess is someone else introduced it and I responded. Or maybe not. I honestly don’t remember the context.
What I can tell you is this: I don’t think established relationships should resemble chess matches. But I do think men and women are often at a cross-purpose in the early stages of courtship. Susan’s often agreed with me on this point. Principle of Least Interest.
Like I said, in the places I’ve been college students don’t get married in the 18-22 range. I’ll just chalk it up to you and I attending vastly different kinds of schools in vastly different kinds of towns.
@Jimmy
So you’ve been in college 8 years, now in grad school, and you only hang out with students who’re 18 to 22? Do you avoid people your own age? It doesn’t sound like you have a very diverse social circle, since it’s basically unrestricted undergraduates who don’t date or want serious relationships. 2.2 million married college students DO exist all over the country, but apparently not in your little niche. No wonder you generalize so much!
That’s perfectly fine to believe, but it’s also in direct conflict with the facts. Read over #791 again, and then add to that ~33% of college students who still have their V-card. There’s little evidence they’re taking your unrestricted advice, and there’s plenty of evidence that it doesn’t work. 92% to 94% of college students either don’t even try it, or fail when they do try it. I wouldn’t call that a ringing endorsement. Given those facts, suggesting that restricted guys should just “hook up” in order to get a GF is analogous to selling snake oil…
Hmmm… in college for 8 years, no SO and no interest in one, not monogamous, sex should come sooner rather than later, ambivalence towards dating, relationships are about power… I’m just taking your statements at face value, but you don’t come across as restricted at all. Maybe you should reread the post on sociosexuality. I also recall you inspiring Susan to pen this post:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/06/26/relationshipstrategies/the-ethics-of-concealment-in-dating/
In all honesty, if I had a sister or daughter, I’d advise them to consider such guys wolves in sheep’s clothing. Would a truly pragmatic guy assume all LTRs have expiration dates and are doomed to failure? And without having been in one? I don’t think so. Nor would he fear and distrust women’s motives automatically. That’s doctrinaire, not pragmatic.
HUS does exist for a reason, but it doesn’t logically follow therefore that your particular brand of unrestricted advice “works” (it doesn’t) for the average restricted guy in college. After all, he’s looking for a real GF/LTR, and you’re not. It’s interesting that you mention the “market” for this blog. From Susan’s mission statement: I support both women and men in their search for meaningful relationships. Well, that certainly doesn’t describe yourself, by your own admission. The contradiction seems obvious to me.
Not addressing the facts when they’re pointed out is perfectly fine, Mr. Politician, but that doesn’t make them go away. My question remains: Only 6% to 8% of college students form relationships by “hooking up”. So how are all those other couples, married or otherwise, getting together in your opinion?
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